2018-12-01T00:00:03Z pjb: rain1: actually, the GC has the same problem, and some GC deal with it with a mark bit.
2018-12-01T00:00:34Z pjb: But we don't have access to such a bit for all lisp objects, so the hash-table is the best available solution.
2018-12-01T00:01:41Z pjb: 12/01 01:01:01
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2018-12-01T00:18:41Z rain1: there is a bit of overhead to process possibly cyclic structures...
2018-12-01T00:19:00Z rain1: and I guess it has to be done but I can't think of a single actual use for them
2018-12-01T00:19:13Z rain1: well i suppose there is double linked lists
2018-12-01T00:19:18Z rain1: but ive never used them in scheme
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2018-12-01T00:28:51Z amz3: sorry, to interupt please vote on this issue to have better syntax highlighting on the greatest mighty github, graveyard of thousand of still living heroes
2018-12-01T00:30:27Z amz3: the correct link is https://github.com/textmate/scheme.tmbundle/pull/9
2018-12-01T00:30:32Z amz3: but debate ther eis
2018-12-01T00:35:19Z Zipheir: Sourceforge-2.0 can highlight Scheme anyway they want, I guess. I'm not sure what the Right Thing is with square brackets, although they're not an error in most schemes.
2018-12-01T00:37:09Z Zipheir: s/most/many/
2018-12-01T01:07:01Z dTal: there must be a better way of visually representing nested lists than parentheses in plaintext
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2018-12-01T01:09:58Z gwatt: amz3: how should we vote on that? just add a comment saying "+1" until they cave?
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2018-12-01T01:12:30Z mejja: Why fix what is not broken?
2018-12-01T01:12:54Z Riastradh: mejja: So what's broken now?
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2018-12-01T01:13:05Z Riastradh: (besides sf and liar, apparently)
2018-12-01T01:14:00Z dTal: mejja: that is a great argument for not trying to improve anything, ever
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2018-12-01T01:26:57Z mejja: Riastradh, infix is back: 1+0 => 1
2018-12-01T01:28:09Z Riastradh: Heh.
2018-12-01T01:28:12Z Riastradh: Did it ever go away?
2018-12-01T01:28:48Z Riastradh: It's worse than that too.
2018-12-01T01:28:51Z Riastradh: 1+0+0+0+0+0i
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2018-12-01T01:36:22Z mejja: Sqrt doesn't like -inf.0-42i. (flonum-copysign doesn't like fixnumens I guess)
2018-12-01T01:36:34Z Riastradh: Harrumph.
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2018-12-01T01:54:57Z mejja: Riastradh, make check should recompile all tests unconditionally on every run..
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2018-12-01T02:02:21Z Riastradh: Yeah but that's slower...
2018-12-01T02:03:18Z mejja: rudybot, Speed is everything!
2018-12-01T02:03:26Z rudybot: mejja: the speed at which one can navigate through a single buffer or buffers, the keyboard shortcuts galore, the fact that it's written in lisp (on top of c) which allows you to do literally anything you want (be it extensions / tweaks / packages / etc), the facilities for searching within buffers, macros, the fact that everything and anything is documented and searchable in-editor, the plethora of major / minor modes that a
2018-12-01T02:03:31Z Riastradh: Hm.
2018-12-01T02:03:53Z Riastradh: I have this vague recollection that I drafted live variable analysis and dead code elimination in liar about a decade ago.  I wonder where I put it.
2018-12-01T02:10:09Z Riastradh: mejja: sqrt fixed, again, maybe.
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2018-12-01T02:12:20Z wasamasa: gwatt: you made me all excited for no reason
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2018-12-01T03:22:21Z wasamasa: buhman: https://www.upyum.com/en/post/7.xhtml
2018-12-01T03:23:17Z buhman: I have an event-loopy thing that runs in the background. When I'm modifying code, sometimes I make mistakes, which breaks the event loop, and half of the time I find I need to completely restart my interpreter to recover. Is there a not-painful way I can show exceptions from inside the event loop without spamming myself with duplicate messages?
2018-12-01T03:23:30Z wasamasa: the above thing might have it
2018-12-01T03:23:32Z buhman: wasamasa: nice
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2018-12-01T03:28:54Z buhman: wow, I didn't know most of that stuff
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2018-12-01T03:42:09Z buhman: that cond-expand is pretty cool too; was wondering about that
2018-12-01T03:43:58Z Zipheir: wasamasa: ty, cool stuff.
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2018-12-01T03:49:20Z buhman: https://www.upyum.com/en/project/flower-generator.xhtml looks really cool
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2018-12-01T04:05:56Z buhman: Kooda: was there a specific reason to use opengl instead of sdl2?
2018-12-01T04:07:23Z buhman: as a complete chicken noob, I find the sdl2 bindings quite consistent/good
2018-12-01T04:07:57Z Kooda: buhman: the flower generator used SDL2
2018-12-01T04:08:19Z buhman: yeah, I mean you switched from predominantly sdl2 to opengl in your latest thing
2018-12-01T04:08:23Z buhman: why?
2018-12-01T04:08:55Z Kooda: Because I want to, I’m interested by the features, such as fragment shaders.
2018-12-01T04:21:39Z buhman: I hope I encounter situations where I also need such features :)
2018-12-01T04:47:51Z Zipheir: rudybot: Ugh, you gush too much about emacs.
2018-12-01T04:48:01Z rudybot: Zipheir: http://www.theonion.com/articles/massive-flow-of-bullshit-continues-to-gush-from-bp,17564/
2018-12-01T04:48:11Z Zipheir: lol
2018-12-01T04:55:13Z Zipheir: Wow, that link is from 2010.
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2018-12-01T05:05:09Z buhman: isn't that nottheonion?
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2018-12-01T17:28:51Z edw: I need an educated wild-ass guess: What's a typical value for the number of bytes of overhead for an instance of a SRFI-9/R7RS record on modern hardware? Sixty-four?
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2018-12-01T17:48:52Z pjb: edw: one word, a pointer to the record class descriptor.
2018-12-01T17:49:30Z pjb: so 4 or 8, depending on the architecture 32-bit or 64-bit.
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2018-12-01T18:31:24Z edw: pjb: That sounds a bit optimistic. The object has zero or more fields; there's got to be some housekeeping there.
2018-12-01T18:32:20Z edw: And something is referencing it -- assuming it's not about to get GC'd. So that's another word there.
2018-12-01T18:33:47Z edw: If the size of the object were inferred from the class descriptor, I could see an instance of a record taking only one word if it had no fields.
2018-12-01T18:34:36Z edw: So maybe one word plus one word for each field plus at least one reference?
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2018-12-01T19:21:44Z pjb: edw: the metaobject can take some more space, but there's only one for all the instances.  So it doesn't really count (unless you have a single instance, but introspection/retrospection is priceless).
2018-12-01T19:23:37Z pjb: edw: and you asked for the overhead, not to count the storage of the record itself.
2018-12-01T19:23:40Z edw: pjb: Yeah that's not an issue. I'm trying to understand what the time/space costs will be for sparsing a data structure vs allocating a bigger, empty buffer.
2018-12-01T19:25:14Z pjb: Well, we can imagine models, but implementations an optimize things differently.  So for real application, if time or space matter, you can  only benchmark different solutions and see which one you prefer. (but on another implementation, you may want to choose another solution).
2018-12-01T19:26:41Z pjb: But one thing you may note is that usually, lisp implementations use type-tagged values ("boxing"), so if by buffer you mean byte buffer and serialization/deserialization of lisp object, this involves quite some time overhead…
2018-12-01T19:26:41Z edw: In my book overhead is anything that isn't the data itself, and the records I'm worrying about contain a pointer to a vector as well as an index and an offset. But I appreciate the pedantry; I should have asked for the overall cost of an empty instance of a structure.
2018-12-01T19:28:47Z pjb: Well, I don't consider the reference to the fields values to be overhead (you would have it whatever the kind of data structure you would put those values in!).  But granted, if you want to micro-optimize space, keeping everything in a vector may be the way to spare memory.  Assuming the implementation provides specialized vectors of course…
2018-12-01T19:29:29Z pjb: But then you need to compound the overhead of pre-allocating the vectors, instead of dynamically allocate the objects on the heap.
2018-12-01T19:30:20Z edw: This is the very issue I am thinking about. FWIW the object in the vector is a bitvector, so I don't think I'm micro-optimizing too flagrantly.
2018-12-01T19:30:24Z pjb: So, you see, unless you really have a problem, it may just be easier to think about other things, such as whether you've got the right abstractions for your program, or whether your algorithms have the best complexity you can implement.
2018-12-01T19:30:59Z pjb: edw: you could store the index and the offset in the bit vector!
2018-12-01T19:31:18Z pjb: You would just have to write the serialization and deserialization of a short int into the bits…
2018-12-01T19:31:25Z edw: pjb, I thought you were just lecturing me on micro-optimizing?
2018-12-01T19:31:49Z pjb: I'm not saying you should not do it.  But I'm mentionning that it's not interesting, in general.
2018-12-01T19:32:30Z pjb: But perhaps your bit vectors are small and you have a lot of them so any overhead would be really costly.  Like, you could store twice the instances by packing them.
2018-12-01T19:33:23Z buhman: I'm trying to port this algorithm https://www.redblobgames.com/grids/hexagons/#rounding . I came up with http://paste.debian.net/1054004/ , which while objectively correct, is more obtuse than I'd like, and still resorts to a set! . Is there some better/higher-ordered way to accomplish this?
2018-12-01T19:33:33Z edw: I'm writing an integer set implementation and need to think about sparsing (unless you think I should just allocate an infinitely large vector...) and I need to come up with some reasonable values for minimum storage chunk size and maximum gap size in the data.
2018-12-01T19:34:41Z edw: Thus my questions. But thanks for all the bikeshedding.
2018-12-01T19:37:17Z pjb: Well, yes, if you use a list or vector instead of a record, you can express it in a more concise way.
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2018-12-01T19:42:37Z pjb: I would do something like: https://pastebin.com/sAC8aNLw
2018-12-01T19:43:16Z pjb: If map can work with vectors, or if there's a vector-map, then you could use vectors, so x y and z can be faster.
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2018-12-01T19:50:59Z buhman: I think map is exactly what I want, I'm just not sure how to translate the nested if to a map function
2018-12-01T19:51:49Z pjb: ah, but the nested if is the fastest way to find the biggest element.
2018-12-01T19:51:58Z pjb: We find it with two tests.
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2018-12-01T19:53:26Z buhman: because one of the cube constructions is redundant, can that be eliminated nicely?
2018-12-01T19:53:49Z pjb: Well, the compiler should be able to do it.  Common subexpressions elimination is a trivial optimization.
2018-12-01T19:54:12Z buhman: what if I don't want to type all of that? :)
2018-12-01T19:54:45Z pjb: Well, you can write it as they did, but there's one case where you will perform 3 tests instead of 2.
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2018-12-01T20:14:15Z Zipheir: Is the story that (let loop ((xs xs)) ... (loop (cdr xs))) runs in space exponential to (length xs) true? There was some discussion of this on here a while ago, but I missed the conclusion.
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2018-12-01T20:26:18Z edw: Zipheir: It all hangs on the `...`.
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2018-12-01T20:29:47Z edw: But `(loop ((xs '(0 1 2 3))) (if (null? xs) '() (loop (cdr xs))))` runs in constant space in anything that claims to be Scheme.
2018-12-01T20:36:36Z edw: Zipheir: jcowan was saying yesterday something about rest arguments, that they needed to be copied and thus caused unintuitive allocations to occur.
2018-12-01T20:44:37Z buhman: why can
2018-12-01T20:58:15Z Zipheir: edw: That's what I was referring to.
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2018-12-01T20:59:43Z Zipheir: edw: I should hope `(loop ((xs '(0 1 2 3))) (if (null? xs) '() (loop (cdr xs))))` runs in constant space. If not, we're all doomed.
2018-12-01T21:01:53Z edw: It would guess that it is true in your Scheme if 1) you mutate XS (assuming it comes from a rest arg and 2) the list that was passed to the APPLY that invoked the function is not changed.
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2018-12-01T21:03:55Z Zipheir: (1) makes sense, but I'm not exactly sure what you mean by (2)
2018-12-01T21:04:15Z edw: E.g. (let ((XS '(0 1 2 3))) (APPLY EVIL-PROC XS) XS) => '(0 1 2 3) even if EVIL-PROC e.g. SET-CDR!s its copy of XS.
2018-12-01T21:04:31Z edw: To e.g. '().
2018-12-01T21:04:51Z edw: That would mean that XS was copied.
2018-12-01T21:04:53Z Zipheir: Ah.
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2018-12-01T21:05:46Z edw: That's my understanding of what jcowan was saying. Whether a given Scheme follows the standard or not is another issue.
2018-12-01T21:06:05Z Zipheir: So to be very general, we should be able to expect tail-call loops to avoid extra copies of the loop arguments if the body of the loop doesn't involve mutation?
2018-12-01T21:06:20Z Zipheir: (of the loop arguments, that is)
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2018-12-01T21:07:17Z edw: I believe that this issue is that unless the interpreter/compiler can prove that rest-list won't be mutated it needs to be copied.
2018-12-01T21:07:29Z Zipheir: Right.
2018-12-01T21:08:22Z Zipheir: Hmm, I begin to see why Racket went down the immutable-pairs route.
2018-12-01T21:08:41Z edw: One more reason to prefer "pre-canned" higher-order procs like MAP, FOLD, REDUCE, ETC.
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2018-12-01T21:09:29Z Zipheir: Indeed.
2018-12-01T21:09:37Z Zipheir: Thanks for your insights, edw.
2018-12-01T21:09:57Z edw: Just groping in the dark with ya.
2018-12-01T21:10:04Z edw: You're welcome.
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2018-12-01T21:13:39Z rain1: http://www.rntz.net/post/intuitive-hygienic-macros.html
2018-12-01T21:13:42Z rain1: I keep thinking about this idea
2018-12-01T21:13:57Z rain1: which is just a very simple macro system based on scheme procedures thath use  syntax quote
2018-12-01T21:14:16Z rain1: How would that compare to ER and IR macros?
2018-12-01T21:14:40Z rain1: and i wonder why this isn't actually standard, it seems like you could implement syntax-rules and syntax-case with it
2018-12-01T21:14:56Z rain1: I could be wrong there though, what do you think?
2018-12-01T21:15:18Z pjb: edw: it's simply forbidden to mutate the rest arglist!
2018-12-01T21:15:46Z pjb: so your 1) is null and void.
2018-12-01T21:16:25Z pjb: edw: Now, I note that r5rs doesn't mention threads.  Has r7rs threads?
2018-12-01T21:19:09Z Zipheir: rain1: Something seems inherently fishy about the idea of hygenic quasiquotation here, but I need to read this more carefully.
2018-12-01T21:19:49Z Zipheir: pjb: Nope, at least not yet.
2018-12-01T21:20:31Z rain1: yeah i don't know how to "prove" it is correct or anything
2018-12-01T21:21:57Z pjb: rain1: if you prevent by law the mutation of the argument list, then implementations can avoid copying it. Then everything works nicely and quickly.
2018-12-01T21:22:38Z pjb: Of course, if you have outlaws who do mutate the argument list, however whenever they do it, then anything can happen, depending on the implementation, the current circumstances, optimizations, etc.
2018-12-01T21:22:48Z pjb: But this is outlawed, so it doesn't matter.
2018-12-01T21:23:03Z rain1: that seems like something a compiler could easily catch and error on
2018-12-01T21:23:17Z rain1: well at least if you don't rename the arglist
2018-12-01T21:23:48Z pjb: Possibly.  But in persence of continuations (or threads), it could be difficult to prove anything, AFAICS.
2018-12-01T21:23:50Z edw: pjb: If that's the case then I have no idea what jcowan was talking about.
2018-12-01T21:24:23Z pjb: IMO, he was wrong to think that (apply foo xs)  would be O(n).
2018-12-01T21:24:41Z pjb: at least, if foo has rest parameters.
2018-12-01T21:27:39Z Zipheir: There's nothing in R7RS outlawing mutation of a 'rest' list, AFAIK
2018-12-01T21:27:39Z edw: So the rest params get copied in the LET loop binding and that's where the copy occurs?
2018-12-01T21:28:25Z edw give up in despair.
2018-12-01T21:28:46Z edw gives up, even.
2018-12-01T21:29:15Z Zipheir: I'm just going to happily assume that tail call loops work the way I expect them to.
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2018-12-01T21:37:12Z rain1: what are the disadvantages of syntactic closures?
2018-12-01T21:37:20Z rain1: do they have any problems that scope sets does't have?
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2018-12-01T21:38:28Z pjb: Zipheir: if that's the case, then it should specify how the argument list is passed to the parameters, including the rest parameter.
2018-12-01T21:39:44Z rain1: related to  the tail call discussion
2018-12-01T21:40:12Z rain1: https://david.wragg.org/blog/2014/02/c-tail-calls-1.html
2018-12-01T21:40:15Z jcowan: edw: RnRS requires that when a procedure with a rest argument is called, that the rest argument be bound to a newly allocated list.
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2018-12-01T21:40:42Z jcowan decides to write a little test
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2018-12-01T21:42:08Z edw: jcowan: OK, so then one _can_, according to RnRS, mutate the rest list?
2018-12-01T21:42:17Z jcowan: Indeed.
2018-12-01T21:43:22Z edw: And LET-looping inside the proc doesn't become pathological, but a nested APPLY does/may?
2018-12-01T21:44:03Z edw: A recursive APPLY to a rest-arg-taking proc, that is.
2018-12-01T21:46:31Z jcowan: Well, as a first cut I tried (let ((foo (list 1 2 3))) (define (bar . baz) (eq? foo baz)) (bar foo))
2018-12-01T21:46:53Z jcowan: All four Schemes I am using right now (Chicken, Chibi, Guile, Ypsilon) return #f, so the copying is definitely being done.
2018-12-01T21:47:05Z jcowan: (at least in the interpreter)
2018-12-01T21:47:11Z jcowan: Now I'll experiment with `apply`
2018-12-01T21:49:16Z jcowan: (I also tried a literal translation into CL with sbcl, and it returned NIL.)
2018-12-01T21:51:28Z jcowan: Oh, wait, that test doesn't prove anything.
2018-12-01T21:54:29Z pjb: and then indeed,  processing a list with a recursive apply will be O(n^2) instead of O(n).
2018-12-01T21:55:18Z pjb: your test is wrong. You want: (let ((foo (list 1 2 3))) (define (bar . baz) (eq? foo (car baz))) (bar foo))
2018-12-01T21:55:32Z pjb: in bigloo, this returns #t
2018-12-01T21:55:37Z edw: This does seem to prove that a copy is made:
2018-12-01T21:55:43Z jcowan: That works, but proves nothing
2018-12-01T21:55:52Z edw: https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/1hkPhQsD/evil.scm
2018-12-01T21:55:53Z jcowan: (let ((foo (list 1 2 3))) (define (bar . baz) (eq? foo baz)) (apply bar foo)) is what's determinative
2018-12-01T21:56:14Z pjb: this returns #f in bigloo.
2018-12-01T21:56:15Z edw: In Chibi it prints "(0)\n(0 1 2 3)\n"
2018-12-01T21:56:27Z pjb: err, sorry, both in MIT-scheme.
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2018-12-01T21:58:07Z jcowan: sbcl returns NIL to (let ((foo (list 1 2 3))) (defun bar (&rest baz) (eq foo baz)) (apply #'bar foo)), showing that it is copying even though it isn't required to
2018-12-01T21:58:35Z edw: My sample produces the same output in gsi.
2018-12-01T21:58:50Z edw: And MIT.
2018-12-01T21:59:19Z jcowan: Which shows that all these Schemes are conforming.
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2018-12-01T22:00:10Z jcowan translates edw's example into CL
2018-12-01T22:00:13Z LeoNerd misread "comforting"
2018-12-01T22:00:38Z edw: So, kids, don't recursively apply to rest-arg-taking procs.
2018-12-01T22:00:48Z pjb: abcl, ccl, clisp, ecl, and sbcl return NIL for this.
2018-12-01T22:00:54Z Zipheir: edW: Exactly.
2018-12-01T22:00:56Z pjb: So yes.
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2018-12-01T22:03:05Z jcowan: Thanks, pjb
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2018-12-01T22:18:25Z Zipheir: All's right with the world, thank Ford.
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2018-12-01T22:27:28Z edw: Haven't read that in a while. Recent events have derailed the "Huxley, not Orwell, was right" Conventional Wisdom.
2018-12-01T22:28:35Z jonaslund: My money is on Asimov these days
2018-12-01T22:29:47Z jonaslund: "psychohistory" didn't need mythical mind-control to function, it just needed a shit-ton of facebook data and ads
2018-12-01T22:31:04Z edw: My working hypothesis is that we live in PKD's world. And I'm despairing accordingly.
2018-12-01T22:31:19Z edw: Accordionly.
2018-12-01T22:31:28Z jonaslund: pkd ?
2018-12-01T22:32:32Z edw: PK Dick.
2018-12-01T22:33:02Z edw: How many Ls? One.
2018-12-01T22:33:12Z edw: Philip K Dick.
2018-12-01T22:33:38Z jonaslund: ah
2018-12-01T22:34:50Z edw: A Scanner Darkly and Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep used to be fun mind-fucks but now they sum up our epistemological situation.
2018-12-01T22:35:36Z Zipheir: I don't think I'd ever describe "Do Androids Dream ..." as 'fun', but I've only read it once.
2018-12-01T22:36:33Z Zipheir: As great a writer as he is, I don't think Dick is prophetic in that he really didn't think about technology or scientific advances at all.
2018-12-01T22:36:59Z Zipheir: Pretty much the _least_ interested in science of any "science fiction" writer, even.
2018-12-01T22:37:51Z edw: I found the idea charming that there could be an infinite regress of police stations with replicants chasing around non-replicants. Arbitrary nestings of replicantness or humanness.
2018-12-01T22:38:26Z Zipheir: Hah, yes.
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2018-12-01T22:39:07Z Zipheir: (I note that Ridley Scott dropped that part from Bladerunner, probably because it didn't fit his macho/somewhat humorless vision)
2018-12-01T22:40:17Z edw: Am I real? Am I authentic? Do I know what's going on? You just give up after a while. I think Ryan Gosling captured that pefectly near the end of  BR2049 as the enormous topless Joy chatted him up.
2018-12-01T22:40:55Z edw: The sequel much better captured the exhausted, exasperated spirit of the novel.
2018-12-01T22:41:22Z Zipheir: Hmm, I'll have to get around to seeing that.
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2018-12-01T22:42:22Z edw: It's an arthouse movie masquerading (not very effectively) as a sci-fi flick.
2018-12-01T22:42:45Z edw: I listened to the soundtrack for most of my motorcycle ride to Alaska this summer.
2018-12-01T22:44:49Z edw: Maybe it's time to walk the city in my Han Solo parka and listen to that again.
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2018-12-01T22:46:22Z edw: Praise foof and his advice re: using quasiquoting in (show #t ...) for debugging.
2018-12-01T22:46:32Z Zipheir: Well, maybe it's good, but somewhat disappointing that they picked standard-Oscar-winning-movie-composer Hans Zimmer to do it. What happened to the Vangelis synth stuff from the old film??
2018-12-01T22:46:58Z edw: https://github.com/ashinn/chibi-scheme/pull/499#issuecomment-443391963
2018-12-01T22:47:32Z Zipheir: Clever.
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2018-12-01T22:47:39Z edw: Have you listened to it? Watch the movie and have a listen. I have an Apple Music playlist where I put the Elvis and Sinatra tracks in where they should be.
2018-12-01T22:47:55Z edw: Can share if you drink six-colored kool-aide.
2018-12-01T22:47:55Z Zipheir: Will do.
2018-12-01T22:48:59Z edw: Hans collaborated with someone on the score. It's really good; maybe it was sort of a professor-takes-the-main-credit sort of thing.
2018-12-01T22:55:04Z Zipheir: The score should have one of those museum attributions for Renaissance stuff--"By the workshop of Hans Zimmer"
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2018-12-01T22:59:36Z jcowan: IMO "Electric Ant" is the greatest of PKD's meditations on identity and experience.  Am I a robot whose experience comes solely from a tape?  If so, how do I know?  And what happens when the tape runs out?
2018-12-01T23:00:43Z jcowan: http://sickmyduck.narod.ru/pkd077-0.html
2018-12-01T23:01:04Z jcowan: "Taxis often talk in Dick's work; they are earnest, but usually mistaken."  --UKL
2018-12-01T23:02:50Z pjb: I'm not worried if *I* am real or authentic.  I'm much more worried that most people around be are not real! Just empty shells to fill the town.
2018-12-01T23:03:39Z Riastradh: I'm worried about floating-point, not real; can't even name most of the reals.
2018-12-01T23:03:49Z pjb: s/be/me/
2018-12-01T23:05:23Z Zipheir: jcowan: ty, I hadn't heard of that one.
2018-12-01T23:08:34Z jcowan: "Of course I'm a solipsist!  Isn't everybody?" --said to Bertrand Russell
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2018-12-01T23:11:31Z jcowan: So I guess the moral is, when you need to accept an arbitrary number of arguments and recursion makes sense, have (define (foo . bar) (real-foo bar)), and then the copy is done only once, no matter how recursive real-foo may be
2018-12-01T23:13:39Z Zipheir: Helper functions to the rescue.
2018-12-01T23:16:04Z Riastradh: Variadic functions are just a notational convenience anyway; using them seriously for computation is a bit silly.
2018-12-01T23:16:41Z pjb: Indeed. I take them only as a command-line interface in the REPL.
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2018-12-01T23:22:09Z Zipheir: Although it's an important point if you're implementing, say, SRFI-1.
2018-12-01T23:23:28Z Zipheir: Plenty of Scheme's much-used library functions are variadic, whether they're for 'serious' use or not is up to you.
2018-12-01T23:24:36Z jcowan: To say nothing of arithmetic.
2018-12-01T23:29:38Z pjb: variadic, but not recursively with apply, let's hope.
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2018-12-01T23:30:19Z pjb: I wonder why the most common CL implementations don't avoid copying it…
2018-12-01T23:30:57Z Riastradh: Perhaps because they push things on a stack and then pop them off rather than pass it as a list?
2018-12-01T23:32:25Z pjb: I would say rather, because with (apply f l) f can still have some mandatory and optional parameters, before the &rest arguments.  But after cdr'ing the list to bind them,  it could just bind that tail to the &rest parameter instead of copying it.
2018-12-01T23:35:31Z pjb: Hehe, with a compiled bar function, clisp returns T, ie. avoid copying the &rest argument.
2018-12-01T23:35:39Z pjb: (but not the other implementations).
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2018-12-02T00:08:33Z jcowan: edw: BTW, foof's integer-set implementation uses a tree of bitvectors whose max size is 512 bits
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2018-12-02T00:24:06Z jcowan: I'm working on a library that extends SRFI 4 to homogeneous bitvectors and inexact complex vectors.  I was originally calling it (srfi 4ish) on R7RS, but that's an error.  What should I call it?
2018-12-02T00:25:34Z jcowan: I could call it (srfi :4ish), since the conventional R6RS name for SRFI libraries is (srfi :n), but that seems unnatural.  I'd rather have a name that is valid by both standards.
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2018-12-02T02:23:47Z buhman: http://paste.debian.net/1054041/ how do I make these quasipatterns work?
2018-12-02T02:24:37Z buhman: I'm trying to make "want" be interpreted as a value and "tail" as a pattern
2018-12-02T02:41:14Z Zipheir: buhman: (('want . tail) tail) should work
2018-12-02T02:43:44Z Zipheir: buhman: (assuming I've understood correctly that you want to match lists beginning with 'want)
2018-12-02T02:44:11Z buhman: want the symbol or want the value?
2018-12-02T02:44:23Z buhman: I'm trying to do the latter
2018-12-02T02:44:44Z Zipheir: What do you mean by 'want the value'?
2018-12-02T02:44:55Z buhman: (define want '(1 2))
2018-12-02T02:45:12Z Zipheir: Ah, OK.
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2018-12-02T02:48:55Z Zipheir: What you've got _should_ be right according to the match spec.
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2018-12-02T02:51:38Z Zipheir: "Quasiquote introduces a quasipattern, in which identifiers are considered to be symbolic constants. ... unquote and unquote-splicing escape back to normal patterns"
2018-12-02T02:52:19Z buhman: yeah that sounds like the magic I want, it's just a little confusing since it's the opposite of what normal quoting does
2018-12-02T02:53:28Z Zipheir: So no, (let ((want 'bar)) (match '(bar) (`(want . ,rest) 'match) (_ 'no-match))) won't produce match . Quasipatterns don't allow you to introduce expressions.
2018-12-02T02:54:54Z Zipheir: `(want) matches '(foo), `(,want) matches '(foo) and binds want to foo . But you can't get the value of the expression want into the pattern.
2018-12-02T02:55:25Z Zipheir: (Sorry, `(want) doesn't match '(foo), it matches '(want))
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2018-12-02T02:56:19Z buhman: http://paste.debian.net/1054046/ that seems a little awkward, but it works
2018-12-02T02:57:13Z Zipheir: Ugh
2018-12-02T02:57:46Z Zipheir: At that point, you may as well do it without match.
2018-12-02T02:59:12Z buhman: yeah, my original was http://paste.debian.net/1054047/ , seemed a little over-indented but I guess it's fine
2018-12-02T03:01:53Z Zipheir: That's perfectly clear.
2018-12-02T03:02:55Z Zipheir: You can use (and find ...) to eliminate the #f case.
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2018-12-02T03:04:37Z buhman: is that idiomatic? seems clever at least
2018-12-02T03:05:31Z buhman: though, how would I combine that with the match?
2018-12-02T03:05:56Z buhman: #;3> (and #t 'this)
2018-12-02T03:05:58Z buhman: this
2018-12-02T03:06:10Z Zipheir: It's up to you. (and find (match find ((_ . next-node) ...) ...)) seems clear enough.
2018-12-02T03:07:06Z Zipheir: and & or are often used in cases where you're just going to return #t/#f anyway.
2018-12-02T03:10:46Z Zipheir: I'd argue it's very idiomatic in a language in which value/#f procedures are common.
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2018-12-02T12:31:45Z scriptdevil: library.readscheme.org redirects to http://cultureua.com/
2018-12-02T12:32:26Z ManDay: i think it was determined in this channel recently, that that url is dead
2018-12-02T12:32:32Z ManDay: i may be lying, though
2018-12-02T12:32:55Z ManDay: iirc, people were trying to find an archive of it
2018-12-02T12:33:34Z scriptdevil: What was that link anyway? libraries in the programmatic sense or like a bookshelf of scheme material?
2018-12-02T12:34:10Z wasamasa: the latter
2018-12-02T12:34:59Z pjb: scriptdevil: there's a mirror at ftp://ftp.informatimago.com/pub/scheme-mirrors/
2018-12-02T12:35:19Z scriptdevil: Thanks!
2018-12-02T12:37:17Z scriptdevil: Anyway, I joined here for a different reason. I find scheme rather relaxing to work with. I am looking to automate a bunch of my stuff (small web-services, desktop tools for my laptop - GNU/Linux etc.) Which scheme do I choose?
2018-12-02T12:37:52Z pjb: I would use MIT-scheme or bigloo, but you may like Racket or some other.
2018-12-02T12:37:59Z ManDay: or guile
2018-12-02T12:38:01Z ManDay: or really just anything
2018-12-02T12:38:05Z ManDay: to each their own
2018-12-02T12:38:46Z pjb: MIT-scheme is now r7rs mostly.
2018-12-02T12:39:39Z ManDay: i don't even have mit-scheme in gentoo, i think
2018-12-02T12:39:44Z ManDay: guile is everywhere
2018-12-02T12:39:59Z edw: jcowan: Shinn’s already written one?! Ugh, I though I was filling in a gap! I have been working on both a tree-of-bitvectors and an alist-of-bitvectors variants. Fun, first-year CS review work though. (Do kids even learn how to implement e.g. a hash table in school these days?)
2018-12-02T12:40:21Z wasamasa: scriptdevil: I've seen people using chibi for that
2018-12-02T12:40:41Z wasamasa: scriptdevil: personally I use CHICKEN to write my tools
2018-12-02T12:41:00Z ManDay: we should have a heated argument about that
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2018-12-02T12:42:57Z scriptdevil: Ok, pick any scheme seems to be the order of the day. Chibi seems nice given c-interop. chicken seems to have tonnes of packages. I will flip a coin I guess. :)
2018-12-02T12:43:22Z wasamasa: racket is another one with lots of libraries
2018-12-02T12:43:43Z ManDay: how is chibi's c-interop better than, say, guile's ?
2018-12-02T12:44:13Z wasamasa: no idea, I've only used CHICKEN and like that it allows me to write most of my C facing code in scheme :D
2018-12-02T12:44:20Z wasamasa: sprinkled with some inline C
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2018-12-02T13:43:38Z nolanv:  /buffer 64
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2018-12-02T14:01:42Z amz3: M-x whitespace-cleanup
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2018-12-02T14:12:39Z ManDay: /close
2018-12-02T14:13:26Z ManDay: 64 buffers, that's....
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2018-12-02T14:59:29Z edw: amz3: whitespace-cleanup doesn't respect indent-tabs-mode; make sure you set up whitespace style appropriately if you hate tab characters.
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2018-12-02T15:17:04Z amz3: tx!
2018-12-02T15:17:25Z amz3: btw, there is no threading macro ala clojure in scheme, is there a reason why?
2018-12-02T15:20:18Z qu1j0t3: you mean why wasn't it in the standard?
2018-12-02T15:21:19Z wasamasa: why would a language introduced in 2007 possibly have something not present in a standard introduced in 1975...
2018-12-02T15:21:39Z amz3: qu1j0t3: yes
2018-12-02T15:21:54Z amz3: I mean, chez scheme doesn't 'compose' at all
2018-12-02T15:22:03Z amz3: I mean, chez scheme doesn't have 'compose' at all
2018-12-02T15:22:57Z gwatt: amz3: are you wanting one?
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2018-12-02T15:24:25Z amz3: yes, i need to "compose" procedures, I am wondering which order to use for the procedures right-to-left or left-to-right basically clojure's arrow vs 'compose'
2018-12-02T15:24:38Z amz3: guile has compose
2018-12-02T15:24:54Z amz3: it must be read from right-to-left
2018-12-02T15:25:07Z amz3: I mean, call order is right to left
2018-12-02T15:25:09Z wasamasa: also, note that for arrow macros to work as nicely as in clojure, the whole API has to be designed around it
2018-12-02T15:25:33Z gwatt: amz3: (compose a b c) goes to (c (b (a ...))) ?
2018-12-02T15:25:34Z wasamasa: example of how not to do it: elisp
2018-12-02T15:25:47Z amz3: gwatt: yes
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2018-12-02T15:26:37Z edw: amz3: How many minutes do you think it would take to write a useful -> macro?
2018-12-02T15:26:56Z gwatt: amz3: https://pastebin.com/EsEn54A1
2018-12-02T15:27:07Z wasamasa: there's a clojurian egg providing such syntax
2018-12-02T15:27:10Z amz3: the probleme is not writing the macro, the problem is better from a code readability point of  view
2018-12-02T15:28:21Z amz3: erf sorry
2018-12-02T15:28:37Z edw: Having spent a ton of time in Clojure, I think -> gets abused about as often as it gets properly used. I don't miss it much, despite having re-written -> and ->> in Scheme.
2018-12-02T15:28:57Z amz3: what is better from a readability point of view 'compose', arrow macro or nothing
2018-12-02T15:29:07Z gwatt: they do different things
2018-12-02T15:33:35Z amz3: gwatt: tx for the implementation
2018-12-02T15:33:43Z amz3: TIL
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2018-12-02T18:34:49Z jcowan: If someone devised a good syntax for composing multi-argument procedures, that would be very useful, I think
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2018-12-02T18:46:24Z edw: jcowan: I.e. multiple arities?
2018-12-02T18:47:01Z edw: Oh, composing. I thought you meant the "to write" sense of "to compose."
2018-12-02T18:53:35Z jcowan chuckles
2018-12-02T18:54:06Z jcowan: When writing pipes, each pipeline component can have its own arguments along with the implicit arguments along which composition is done, stdin and stdout.
2018-12-02T18:54:53Z jcowan: I guess cut/cute already accomplishes this
2018-12-02T18:55:09Z edw: Let's not forget to take multiple return values into account.
2018-12-02T18:55:14Z jcowan: it can specialize a procedure down to one argument, though it has no ...
2018-12-02T18:55:17Z jcowan: yeah, just about to say that
2018-12-02T18:55:56Z jcowan: The trouble is that while the number of arguments is (mostly) statically known, the number of results is not
2018-12-02T18:56:19Z jcowan: I once proposed (lambda n (...) ...), where n is a literal exact integer, as syntax for a procedure returning exactly n values
2018-12-02T18:56:26Z jcowan: but everyone screamed "UGHLY!"
2018-12-02T18:56:57Z qu1j0t3: what about a typesystem where you can return an n-tuple (and there is a distinct type for each n)    /me runz
2018-12-02T18:57:35Z edw: jcowan: split-at saved my bacon today, but I was also scratching my head about the ability to (if test (values 1) (values 1 2)).
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2018-12-02T19:02:27Z jcowan: qu1j0t3: The whole point of multiple return values is that they are not first-class.  It's easy to make and return a first-class list or vector or whatever, but multiple values, though they *can* be implemented that way,
2018-12-02T19:02:48Z qu1j0t3: typesafety or cuteness, pick one :)
2018-12-02T19:02:51Z jcowan: can also be treated symmetrically with multiple arguments in a CPS-converting compiler
2018-12-02T19:03:22Z jcowan: There is nothing incompatible between the two
2018-12-02T19:04:19Z qu1j0t3: so you've solved it then
2018-12-02T19:05:44Z jcowan: I guess.
2018-12-02T19:06:33Z jcowan: edw: (values obj) is always just obj, so that reduces to (if 1 (values 1 2))
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2018-12-02T19:08:40Z edw: jcowan: I was just referring to the idea that a plain-jane proc can very quickly make life hell for its caller by deciding to return different numbers of results. File under "Programming is user interface design."
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2018-12-02T19:11:22Z jcowan: All CLs and some Schemes drop all values but the first if the continuation expects only one value (as it generally does).  It's very important that a procedure that returns multiple values be documented to do so.
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2018-12-02T19:13:29Z edw: Understatement of the 3.2e7s.
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2018-12-02T19:15:35Z Zipheir: 'File under "Programming is user interface design."' File under 'feh'.
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2018-12-02T19:21:37Z Zipheir: A problem seems to be what to do when composing functions of > n arguments with functions return n or fewer arguments.
2018-12-02T19:22:33Z Zipheir: functions that return n or fewer, even.
2018-12-02T19:23:01Z Zipheir: Dummy arguments? Raise an error? :/
2018-12-02T19:23:04Z jcowan: Really, procedures that return multiple values are not functions (or representations of functions, whatever)
2018-12-02T19:23:22Z jcowan: You really don't want (+ (values 1 2)) to return 3
2018-12-02T19:23:25Z edw: Some real world examples of procs to compose accompanied by imagined elegant ways of expressing those compositions might get us 90% of the way toward coming up with something. The macro is the easy part.
2018-12-02T19:24:23Z Zipheir: Right, s/functions/procedures/
2018-12-02T19:24:49Z jcowan: cut/cute basically projects a procedure of n arguments onto a procedure of n - k arguments.  An analogue would project a procedure returning n values onto one that returns n - k values.
2018-12-02T19:25:42Z jcowan: Zipheir: My point was that `compose` is an operation on functions, and multiple-value-returning procedures are not, in this sense, functions at all.
2018-12-02T19:26:14Z Zipheir: jcowan: Indeed, good point.
2018-12-02T19:26:20Z jcowan: So perhaps it is just a category mistake to assume that such things can be composerd at all unless properly reduced.
2018-12-02T19:27:13Z Zipheir: jcowan: I think your comparison with UNIX pipelines is very apt.
2018-12-02T19:27:30Z jcowan: The nice thing about cut is that it's easy to understand:  (cut foo <> bar <>) reduces the 3-argument procedure foo to a 2-argument procedure by supplying the value of bar as a constant 2nd argument, but without the programmer needing to count the arguments
2018-12-02T19:28:38Z jcowan: as opposed to such a syntax as (cut foo 1 3) which is much harder to understand.
2018-12-02T19:29:06Z Zipheir: What about a cut for return values?
2018-12-02T19:29:18Z jcowan: Exactly
2018-12-02T19:30:03Z Zipheir: (tuc foo _ <>) might return a procedure identical to foo, except the first return value is discarded and the second returned?
2018-12-02T19:30:26Z Zipheir: meh, but it is easy to implement.
2018-12-02T19:32:44Z Zipheir: Alternatively, (tuc foo N) for a procedure discarding all but the Nth return value of foo.
2018-12-02T19:34:34Z rain1: hey
2018-12-02T19:35:03Z rain1: does anybody have interest in specification for low level/procedural scheme macros?
2018-12-02T19:35:15Z rain1: I feel like this is a missing thing in scheme
2018-12-02T19:36:20Z wasamasa: so does jcowan
2018-12-02T19:36:24Z jcowan: missing?!  There are too many such specs
2018-12-02T19:36:37Z rain1: hm... lol
2018-12-02T19:36:50Z rain1: i need to look into them
2018-12-02T19:38:36Z jcowan: I thought I had a list of which Schemes implement which of the five known systems (nobody implements all of them) but I can't find it
2018-12-02T19:39:13Z Riastradh: explicit renaming, syntactic closures, reverse syntactic closures, Dybvig-style syntax-case, Racket-style syntax-case, maybe other new variants of syntax-case, Chris's new `spar' system which I haven't looked into yet
2018-12-02T19:39:19Z rain1: I'm thinking about things like er/ir macros, and http://www.rntz.net/post/intuitive-hygienic-macros.html
2018-12-02T19:39:56Z rain1: syntax-case is very high level and takes a lot of code to implement so i'm looking for low level things that syntax-case could be implemented in
2018-12-02T19:40:13Z rain1: How would I find spar ?
2018-12-02T19:41:11Z Riastradh: mit-scheme git
2018-12-02T19:41:20Z jcowan: Syntax-case actually has only a few primitives: the rest (including `syntax-case` itself) are library routines
2018-12-02T19:42:00Z jcowan: see https://bitbucket.org/cowan/r7rs-wg1-infra/src/default/MinimalSyntaxCaseCowan.md
2018-12-02T19:42:48Z rain1: one of the things I have been thinking about is the potential code duplication between the pattern matching parts of: match, syntax-rules, syntax-case
2018-12-02T19:43:12Z rain1: if a basic pattern matcher supported syntax objects there could be a lot of deduplication, could be very nice
2018-12-02T19:43:20Z jcowan: syntax-case's pattern matcher is compatible with syntax-rules.
2018-12-02T19:43:46Z Zipheir: Dumb question, but where is syntax-case specified?
2018-12-02T19:43:47Z jcowan: indeed, syntax-rules is a trivial macro if you have syntax-case; it just quotes the RHS of each rule
2018-12-02T19:43:58Z rain1: I think it's in R6RS Zipheir
2018-12-02T19:43:59Z Riastradh: (define-syntax syntax-rules (syntax-rules () ((syntax-rules (l ...) (pat temp) ...) (lambda (stx) (syntax-case stx (l ...) (pat (syntax temp)) ...]
2018-12-02T19:44:32Z jcowan: Links:
2018-12-02T19:44:44Z jcowan: https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/4Vjtz8mE/
2018-12-02T19:46:08Z rain1: oh spar is short for syntax-parse
2018-12-02T19:46:11Z rain1: racket has this i think
2018-12-02T19:46:31Z jcowan: Syntactic closure systems also have reverse syntactic closures and explicit renaming, and SRFI 72 combines explicit renaming with syntax-case.
2018-12-02T19:46:40Z Riastradh: rain1: spar and syntax-parse are different things.
2018-12-02T19:46:41Z Zipheir: syntax-case doesn't seem to be mentioned in R6RS
2018-12-02T19:46:44Z jcowan: Implicit renaming exists only in (some) explicit renaming systems
2018-12-02T19:46:59Z jcowan: Zipheir: follow above link or look in the libraries document
2018-12-02T19:47:43Z Zipheir: jcowan: Ah yes, in the libraries it is.
2018-12-02T19:47:58Z rain1: ah
2018-12-02T19:48:34Z Zipheir: http://www.r6rs.org/final/html/r6rs-lib/r6rs-lib-Z-H-13.html#node_chap_12 , if anyone cares.
2018-12-02T19:49:09Z jcowan: Ah, https://bitbucket.org/cowan/r7rs-wg1-infra/src/default/SyntaxDefinitions.md is the page I wanted (who implements what)
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2018-12-02T20:44:42Z rain1: wow srfi 72 seesm to be what I had in mind actually!
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2018-12-02T21:24:22Z amz3: scheme is great!
2018-12-02T21:25:41Z rain1: are er and ir macros interdefinable?
2018-12-02T21:26:39Z gwatt: I think so
2018-12-02T21:27:28Z gwatt: You just need to have a notion of a wrapped object.
2018-12-02T21:27:41Z rain1: ah
2018-12-02T21:28:02Z rain1: so you'd basically traverse the whole s-expression and apply the function to every node, except the wrapped one
2018-12-02T21:28:08Z gwatt: yep
2018-12-02T21:28:18Z rain1: ty
2018-12-02T21:28:25Z gwatt: I implemented er/ir macros on top of syntax case for fun.
2018-12-02T21:28:35Z rain1: ooh i'd like to see that!
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2018-12-02T21:29:00Z gwatt: https://github.com/gwatt/macros/blob/master/renaming-transformers.scm
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2018-12-02T22:03:14Z rain1: is implicit renaming basically the same as syntax quote macros like https://srfi.schemers.org/srfi-72/srfi-72.html http://www.rntz.net/post/intuitive-hygienic-macros.html
2018-12-02T22:03:23Z rain1: except these use #' instead of just ' for the IR bit
2018-12-02T22:04:51Z rain1: so for er you just do the handler with rename, with ir you rename the form then mirror-rename the result. I guess that's where the extra complexity comes in
2018-12-02T22:11:28Z rain1: great code gwatt, it's really well written
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2018-12-02T22:13:09Z jcowan: No, the extra complexity comes in with nested macro calls: first the top-level macro goes through the entire tree, then each remaining subordinate macro goes through its entire tree, and so on.
2018-12-02T22:13:24Z jcowan: A direct implementation of IR can interleave tree searching and expansion and avoid this.
2018-12-02T22:13:57Z gwatt: Yeah, you could probably implement srfi 72 on top of implicit renaming pretty simply. If you're clever with fluid-let-syntax, you could probably implement srfi-72 on top of r6rs syntax quotes
2018-12-02T22:14:37Z rain1: ah right i see the problem with IR now
2018-12-02T22:17:21Z jcowan: Well, I think the remaining question about a multiple value reduction macro now is, should it always reduce to a single numbered argument, or should it accept multiple numbers?  The first is simplest and probably good enough most of the time, particularly if the number defaults to 1 (or 0 if zero-based)
2018-12-02T22:20:08Z jcowan: Okay, the (srfi x4) library is now released, providing SRFI 4 semantics (but not lexical syntax) for u1vectors, c64vectors, and c128vectors.
2018-12-02T22:20:35Z jcowan: It should work on any R6RS or R7RS system, as well as R5RS systems that have minimal bytevectors.
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2018-12-02T22:35:44Z gwatt: jcowan: re: multiple value reduction. Are you thinking something like (select-value 0 (values 1 2 3 4)) => 1, (select-values 3 0 (values 1 2 3 4)) => 4 1 ?
2018-12-02T22:39:35Z jcowan: yes, modulo putting the multiple-values expression first
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2018-12-02T22:42:43Z gwatt: ah, that makes sense
2018-12-02T22:44:04Z gwatt: the single value producing one is certainly the easiest to implement
2018-12-02T22:44:48Z gwatt: I'm not even sure how to do the arbitrary values in syntax-rules
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2018-12-02T23:14:39Z jcowan: The macro can just wrap the expression as a thunk and pass everything to a function to do the real work.
2018-12-02T23:15:09Z gwatt: That's true
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2018-12-03T15:22:08Z edw: jcowan: There's a typo in SRFI 142. The status notes that it was superceded by SRFI 142, not 151. Infinite loop!
2018-12-03T15:27:02Z jcowan: thanks, reported to srfi-editors@
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2018-12-03T19:16:37Z rain1: I'd like some advice to improve this function
2018-12-03T19:17:18Z rain1: https://bpaste.net/show/1a5d5c179c67
2018-12-03T19:17:35Z rain1: if you've got any suggestions at all it would help
2018-12-03T19:17:43Z rain1: but i'm particular wondering if there's a good way to avoid (list->string (reverse
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2018-12-03T19:19:12Z weinholt: you could write the characters to a string output port instead of constructing a list
2018-12-03T19:20:07Z rain1: that seems like a good idea, I think it could potentially be more efficient
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2018-12-03T19:25:56Z edw: I have a thought re: Scheme's relative unpopularity. I'm on page three of Cormen et al.'s _Introduction to Algorithms_ and translating the pseudocode for insertion sort, the very first piece of pseudocode in the book, is a nightmare.
2018-12-03T19:28:39Z edw: Writing it as a DO loop was tractable but I had to invert the logic of the tests because DO is do-until while the pseudocode features a while loop.
2018-12-03T19:28:47Z nisstyre: edw: well yeah imperative algorithms translate badly to a language that promotes functional programming
2018-12-03T19:29:04Z nisstyre: they're not meant to be declarative algorithms
2018-12-03T19:29:13Z Zipheir: nisstyre: My reaction exactly.
2018-12-03T19:29:18Z nisstyre: you end up using set! a lot probably
2018-12-03T19:29:39Z Zipheir: If you're using do, there's probably a better way.
2018-12-03T19:30:37Z edw: I guess this isn't the place for introspection.
2018-12-03T19:30:46Z Zipheir: (Not necessarily a better way to translate the imperative algorithm, though.)
2018-12-03T19:31:11Z nisstyre: some algorithms are hard to translate Zipheir
2018-12-03T19:31:20Z nisstyre: e.g. Sieve of Eratosthenes
2018-12-03T19:31:21Z edw: CL's LOOP macro would make the code a snap.
2018-12-03T19:31:29Z nisstyre: there is a good FP algorithm but it relies on priority queues
2018-12-03T19:31:38Z Zipheir: CL's LOOP macro is an abomination. :)
2018-12-03T19:31:39Z Riastradh: edw: You could use foof-loop!
2018-12-03T19:32:25Z Riastradh: rain1: (call-with-output-string (lambda (p*) (let loop () (let ((c (read-char p))) (if (not (eof-object? c)) (begin (write-char c p*) (loop]
2018-12-03T19:32:31Z Riastradh: er
2018-12-03T19:32:35Z Zipheir: loopy-loop is another nice option.
2018-12-03T19:32:36Z Riastradh: Maybe add a newline test there too.
2018-12-03T19:32:49Z Riastradh: Is loopy-loop the one foof wrote?  I forget.
2018-12-03T19:32:59Z Zipheir: Yes.
2018-12-03T19:33:54Z Riastradh: edw: https://mumble.net/~campbell/scheme/loop-comparison.scm
2018-12-03T19:34:00Z Zipheir: edw: Introspect away!
2018-12-03T19:34:01Z Riastradh: Somewhere I had a cute quicksort example but I don't remember where.
2018-12-03T19:34:28Z edw: Riastradh: I was recently asked about red-black trees and couldn't recall how they worked (but remembered _why_ they exist, so no need for a lecture, peanut gallery) so I blew the dust off my CS library and read up on them. Then, just for kicks I started at the beginning of the book as a Scheme noob with nothing but a Speedo, a hunting knife, and the R7RS standard to see how easy it would be to follow along.
2018-12-03T19:34:33Z Riastradh: Ah, here it is: https://mumble.net/~campbell/tmp/foof-loop.txt
2018-12-03T19:34:50Z Riastradh: edw: Red/black trees are overrated, use critbit trees or bounded-balanced tree!
2018-12-03T19:35:23Z edw: Riastradh: I should've given that answer to the dweeb who was interviewing me. Woulda shown him!
2018-12-03T19:35:44Z edw: I assume foof-loop appears somewhere in Chibi...
2018-12-03T19:36:04Z Riastradh: Bounded-balance trees are not just ordered trees; they're order statistic trees, so you can efficiently get the nth element or ask for the position of an element.
2018-12-03T19:36:27Z edw: And of course synthcode.org is down...
2018-12-03T19:36:39Z Riastradh: edw: No, probably not.  What happened was about a decade ago foof posted an idea to c.l.s, and I responded by reimplementing the idea and calling it foof-loop, and foof responded by expanding on the idea and calling it loopy-loop.
2018-12-03T19:37:08Z edw: And it's back...
2018-12-03T19:37:16Z Riastradh: edw: See <https://mumble.net/~campbell/tmp/foof-loop.txt> and <https://mumble.net/~campbell/tmp/nested-foof-loop.txt>.
2018-12-03T19:38:49Z Zipheir: And then there's the mythical Olin-loop, which apparently did exist at some point...
2018-12-03T19:39:11Z Riastradh: So if anything I would expect chibi to have loopy-loop, not foof-loop.  The taxonomical confusion is all my fault.  (But my opinion a decade ago was that foof-loop is better.)
2018-12-03T19:39:31Z edw: Ah, you're referenced here, Riastradh: http://synthcode.com/scheme/chibi/lib/chibi/loop.html
2018-12-03T19:39:32Z Riastradh: (I vaguely recall making it detect and report syntax errors better.)
2018-12-03T19:39:49Z Riastradh: Cool.
2018-12-03T19:40:09Z Riastradh: edw: So maybe you can just use chibi loop, except I'm not sure it has the nested-foof-loop stuff.
2018-12-03T19:40:14Z edw: Only losers commit typoes; who needs error reporting?!
2018-12-03T19:40:22Z jonaslund quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
2018-12-03T19:40:37Z Riastradh: Anyway, time to go post bail!
2018-12-03T19:40:38Z Riastradh *poof*
2018-12-03T19:41:38Z gwatt: rain1: (define read-line get-line) =p
2018-12-03T19:43:16Z Zipheir: Anyway, all of our loops are better than LOOP. There are just several to choose from.
2018-12-03T19:45:31Z edw: Zipheir: I got charged with crimes against humanity on the Clojure mailing list for likening someone's library to CL's LOOP.
2018-12-03T19:47:09Z Zipheir: Hah
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2018-12-03T19:55:16Z edw: For real. You can look it up in the archive. People ask me why I'm voting for Planet-Killer Asteroid in 2020. I point them at the Clojure mailing list.
2018-12-03T19:56:45Z qu1j0t3: LOL
2018-12-03T19:56:54Z wasamasa: you're easy to upset
2018-12-03T19:56:55Z Zipheir: Maybe it's not the likeness to LOOP. Maybe it's the suggestion that everything Clojure is Gloriously Original And Indebted To No Other Language.
2018-12-03T19:57:04Z Zipheir: s/is/is not /
2018-12-03T19:59:52Z edw: I cannot discuss Clojure unless I'm in a club chair with a rocks glass topped off with whisky.
2018-12-03T20:00:33Z qu1j0t3: and even then i'd rather not*
2018-12-03T20:00:35Z Zipheir: The only proper way to discuss a hipster language.
2018-12-03T20:02:43Z rain1: it's funny how clojure is so popular
2018-12-03T20:02:57Z rain1: there's something people don't like about things like scheme
2018-12-03T20:03:01Z rain1: but i don't really know what it is
2018-12-03T20:03:04Z edw: For the record, the problem with the translation isn't so much all the exclamation points (i.e. the mutation) as it is the folding of the iteration variables into the control structures.
2018-12-03T20:03:14Z rain1: maybe the extreme purity
2018-12-03T20:03:20Z wasamasa: lol
2018-12-03T20:03:25Z wasamasa: you get more purity in clojure
2018-12-03T20:03:57Z edw: rain1: Yes, wasamasa is totally correct. Clojure punishes mutation far more severely than Scheme doea.
2018-12-03T20:04:02Z edw: s/doea/does/
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2018-12-03T20:04:27Z rain1: I don't use SET! anymore, I always make mutable boxes
2018-12-03T20:04:29Z wasamasa: it goes to the extent that you typically implement the mutating thing in java instead
2018-12-03T20:04:39Z rain1: but I still use set-car/cdr!
2018-12-03T20:05:03Z wasamasa: there's one mutable primitive they use that behaves kind of like boxes
2018-12-03T20:05:50Z Zipheir: edw: i.e. in Scheme it's difficult to fold the iteration variables into the control structure?
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2018-12-03T20:09:07Z edw: Without an example it's hard to explain. There's a while loop with a complex test based in part on an index variable that's initialized in the line before the while statement. The index variable is then incremented at the bottom of the while block.
2018-12-03T20:09:35Z amz3: rain1: I guess people don't like scheme because it's old
2018-12-03T20:09:46Z edw: amz3: You're joking, right?
2018-12-03T20:10:36Z Zipheir: amz3: And lacking a trendy marketing campaign, yeah.
2018-12-03T20:11:28Z gwatt: I think one problem is that you have to pick a scheme.
2018-12-03T20:11:39Z wasamasa: and an impoverished set of libraries
2018-12-03T20:12:04Z wasamasa: if I want to make non-toy web applications, I'm most likely out of luck with mine
2018-12-03T20:12:12Z gwatt: That's just the bootstrapping problem though
2018-12-03T20:12:17Z gwatt: every language / platform has that
2018-12-03T20:12:19Z edw: Is it Scheme's goal to be a widely-used industrial language? If so having a single blessed implementation per target (not-browser vs browser) would be a good start.
2018-12-03T20:12:25Z wasamasa: it isn't
2018-12-03T20:12:39Z wasamasa: so stop comparing languages designed for two different purposes
2018-12-03T20:13:20Z rain1: it's very frustrating how difficult it is to write code that runs on multiple schemes
2018-12-03T20:13:28Z rain1: I do think this is a big part of the problem
2018-12-03T20:13:34Z wasamasa: note that the same applies for clojure implementations
2018-12-03T20:13:53Z amz3: it lakes also big software written in scheme, like clojure has datomic..
2018-12-03T20:14:03Z jcowan: edw: Not going to happen
2018-12-03T20:14:17Z jcowan: foof-loop is not by foof.  Chibi-loop is by foof.
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2018-12-03T20:14:30Z gwatt: we can't even get people to agree on a standard, much less an official implementation
2018-12-03T20:14:36Z amz3: +1
2018-12-03T20:14:38Z Zipheir: chibi-loop == loopy-loop?
2018-12-03T20:14:47Z wasamasa: amz3: there are a few projects, an author of one occasionally posts on chicken-hackers about it
2018-12-03T20:14:47Z edw: I didn't say I agreed to the premise, jcowan. I'm OK with letting a thousand flowers bloom.
2018-12-03T20:14:52Z jcowan: I think it's a more advanced version of it.
2018-12-03T20:15:11Z wasamasa: amz3: he's unhappy with the scheduler because he wants to make a distributed payment system
2018-12-03T20:15:29Z edw: jcowan: But Riastradh warned my chibi-loop doesn't feature elegant nesting.
2018-12-03T20:15:48Z jcowan: So it may be.  I generally loop with named let anyway.
2018-12-03T20:15:53Z edw: s/my/me/ s/doesn't/may not/
2018-12-03T20:15:58Z Zipheir: edw: There's never really been anything stopping someone(TM) from making an Industry Scheme.
2018-12-03T20:16:35Z amz3: it's not a single thing that makes scheme not so popular
2018-12-03T20:16:41Z amz3 stating the obvious
2018-12-03T20:16:52Z edw: jcowan: As do I. I'm using (let loop (...) (when ...)) heavily in my dojo exercises today.
2018-12-03T20:16:59Z amz3: also clojure in particular, has the jvm to help it.
2018-12-03T20:17:58Z Zipheir: amz3: If only Clojure were actually Scheme.
2018-12-03T20:18:03Z edw: amz3: When I took up Clojure eight years ago, my reasoning was thing: Wait, I get get all the benefits of the JVM ecosystem without touching Java if I am willing to give up TCO?
2018-12-03T20:18:33Z edw: s/thing/this/ Cannot type today.
2018-12-03T20:18:37Z edw: Or any day.
2018-12-03T20:18:58Z jcowan: At that rate RH could have just used Bigloo.
2018-12-03T20:19:10Z Zipheir: Or contributed to Kawa, for that matter.
2018-12-03T20:19:40Z Zipheir: But if you want to live the rock star lifestyle of a BDFL, it's got to be Invented Here!
2018-12-03T20:20:23Z wasamasa: FWIW, kawa embraces java tooling way more than clojure, by the virtue of having nothing else besides the interpreter/compiler jar
2018-12-03T20:20:52Z wasamasa: it takes a big community to have not completely sucky tooling it seems
2018-12-03T20:21:01Z edw: From time to time I try to ask myself whether I hate people because I think they're clowns or because I secretly envy them.
2018-12-03T20:21:34Z jcowan: Kawa does PTC but Bigloo does not, IIRC
2018-12-03T20:21:34Z Zipheir: wasamasa: Kawa's pretty nice, though.
2018-12-03T20:21:39Z jcowan: It is
2018-12-03T20:21:50Z wasamasa: sure, but I'd prefer to not have to figure out how to build jars the hard way
2018-12-03T20:21:56Z wasamasa: or fiddling around with the class path
2018-12-03T20:22:36Z wasamasa: I considered looking at the java/clojure implementations of this, but in the end went with a manual approach
2018-12-03T20:23:45Z edw: Clojure has always been compiled and has always had pretty well thought-out interop. And it has literals for sets and hashes and uses them to its advantage for adding expressivity to the language. Multiple-arity defn, destructuring binding (or sequences and hashes), etc. The enrichment of the reader was huge.
2018-12-03T20:28:33Z edw: PG talked big about Arc but the ability of Clojure to use vectors (using brockets) and hashes (using braces) to increase the density of Lisp code in an elegant way far outstripped anything PG did with his terse-ified Scheme.
2018-12-03T20:30:02Z gwatt: I haven't used clojure, but how do its hashes work?
2018-12-03T20:30:16Z edw: {"foo" 0 "bar" 42}
2018-12-03T20:30:19Z gwatt: In scheme you give a hash function and an equality function.
2018-12-03T20:30:42Z gwatt: ah, so does clojure just use the jvm built-in hash / equality?
2018-12-03T20:30:43Z edw: A comparator, gwatt. (My turn to be a pedant.)
2018-12-03T20:30:57Z edw: Yup.
2018-12-03T20:31:46Z gwatt: One thing I like in scheme is that it's trivial to have a case-insensitive string hashtable
2018-12-03T20:31:54Z edw: Clojure also embraces protocols. So vectors and hashes (and fns) are Callable, so you can (my-vec 0) to get the first element of a vector.
2018-12-03T20:32:00Z gwatt: that is nice
2018-12-03T20:33:57Z edw: I've toyed with building a Clojure reader in Scheme and producing a translator that allows Clojurian special forms, but that doesn't give you the elegant protocol-based stuff.
2018-12-03T20:34:49Z edw: Oh, also, this is easily abused, but #(+ % 1) is (lambda (x) (+ x 1)). But you don't need it, because Clojure has inc.
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2018-12-03T20:38:19Z gwatt: I waffle back and forth on some kind of syntactic sugar for anonymous functions in scheme.
2018-12-03T20:38:45Z Zipheir: Too much syntactic sugar causes cancer of the semicolon.
2018-12-03T20:39:06Z qu1j0t3: heh
2018-12-03T20:39:10Z qu1j0t3: - alan perlis
2018-12-03T20:39:28Z gwatt: But a spoonful of sugar helps the [syntax] go down
2018-12-03T20:39:32Z gwatt: - marry poppins
2018-12-03T20:39:56Z Zipheir: qu1j0t3: Thanks :)
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2018-12-03T20:40:15Z qu1j0t3: gwatt: Nah that one's from the sugar lobby!
2018-12-03T20:41:35Z gwatt: qu1j0t3: Mary Poppins wouldn't shill for the sugar lobby! She's so sweet!
2018-12-03T20:42:10Z qu1j0t3: everybody has their price
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2018-12-03T20:44:09Z Zipheir: She probably met that fossil fuel shill Burt at a lobbyists' meetup.
2018-12-03T20:45:27Z Zipheir: s/Burt/Bert/, apparently.
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2018-12-03T20:51:34Z gwatt: (y'all were supposed to pick up on the connection between "sugar lobby" and "sweet")
2018-12-03T20:51:56Z qu1j0t3: gwatt: I did not. :(
2018-12-03T20:51:58Z qu1j0t3: gwatt: well played
2018-12-03T20:52:14Z Zipheir: gwatt: The act is coming along :)
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2018-12-03T21:00:00Z qu1j0t3: <canned laughter>
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2018-12-03T21:13:52Z amz3: :)
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2018-12-03T21:15:50Z amz3: chibi compiled with emscripten is less than 3MB
2018-12-03T21:15:56Z amz3: using wasm
2018-12-03T21:16:40Z amz3: and gzipped it does down to 1MB
2018-12-03T21:17:03Z amz3: scheme sweet scheme ;)
2018-12-03T21:18:21Z amz3: what is the name of the macro that combines 'if' with 'let'?
2018-12-03T21:19:29Z amz3: anyway, python 3.8 (that will come next year) has it
2018-12-03T21:19:44Z amz3: `if(foo:=bar()):`
2018-12-03T21:20:14Z amz3: Python is not the simple language is was
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2018-12-03T21:21:38Z amz3: back to scheme, chibi with all javascript files gziped is around 500KB
2018-12-03T21:21:55Z amz3: web people love small numbers
2018-12-03T21:22:12Z amz3: when it comes to download size
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2018-12-03T21:28:12Z wasamasa: sure, but usually one or two orders of magnitude less
2018-12-03T21:28:37Z wasamasa: react is 2.2k gzipped
2018-12-03T21:31:22Z amz3: oh :/
2018-12-03T21:32:38Z amz3: I just tried to gzip pypyjs, it's 4mb
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2018-12-03T21:38:08Z amz3: I will give the numbers for the app we dev at $work
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2018-12-03T21:38:25Z amz3: once it's ... compiled
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2018-12-03T21:42:03Z amz3: it is 2.7M
2018-12-03T21:42:24Z amz3: so chibi can use 2M of scheme code :)
2018-12-03T21:42:46Z amz3: 2M of gziped scheme code
2018-12-03T21:43:33Z amz3: but that is without code splicing or whatever js people call it, they stream downlowd the source at runtime
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2018-12-03T21:43:43Z amz3: at least they can.
2018-12-03T21:44:16Z amz3: we don't use that at $work
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2018-12-03T21:47:26Z amz3: even applying uglyjs takes the gzipped version of the js code to 2.1M so
2018-12-03T21:47:50Z amz3: so a scheme app could work with 10M or something like that
2018-12-03T21:47:54Z amz3: including chibi
2018-12-03T21:48:53Z rain1: it's annoying how there's still no gc for wasm
2018-12-03T21:49:28Z amz3: how bad it is? Isn't js vm GC not good enough?
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2018-12-03T21:49:51Z wasamasa: ITYM no malloc
2018-12-03T21:50:16Z wasamasa: all you get in wasm is brk(2)
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2018-12-03T21:50:57Z wasamasa: I'm looking forward to people making crappy malloc with this :D
2018-12-03T21:51:05Z rain1: i don't think you can use that from wasm
2018-12-03T21:51:22Z wasamasa: let me paraphrase
2018-12-03T21:51:43Z wasamasa: all you get in wasm is allocating a page of memory
2018-12-03T21:52:11Z wasamasa: you have to build malloc from that as building block
2018-12-03T21:52:21Z wasamasa: or some smarter memory management if you prefer
2018-12-03T21:53:08Z wasamasa: this is no issue for C and friends, malloc has been implemented in plenty of libc
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2018-12-03T22:03:47Z edw: Is there a way to put magic comments in Scheme code to get Emacs to do a (put 'blah scheme-indent-function ...)?
2018-12-03T22:04:29Z pjb: edw: at the end (last 512 bytes): ;; Local Variables:\n;;eval: (put 'blah scheme-indent-function ...)\n;; End:\n
2018-12-03T22:05:04Z pjb: https://www.gnu.org/software/emacs/manual/html_node/emacs/Specifying-File-Variables.html#Specifying-File-Variables
2018-12-03T22:05:08Z rudybot: http://teensy.info/ztIgV2R5Ti
2018-12-03T22:05:51Z amz3: https://git.dthompson.us/sly.git/blob/HEAD:/examples/simple.scm
2018-12-03T22:09:04Z edw: pjb: Any suggestions wrt to making ;; -*- blah... -*- do what I want? like, er, do `(put 'while 'scheme-indent-function 1)`?
2018-12-03T22:09:47Z pjb: edw: it works the same, but all on a single line, and without Local Variable: End:
2018-12-03T22:10:15Z pjb: ;; -*- mode:scheme; eval:(put 'blah scheme-indent-function ...) -*-
2018-12-03T22:11:02Z edw:  pjb Oh, I didn't see the eval part of your comment.
2018-12-03T22:11:18Z pjb: But for eval: I prefer put them at the end. You can have both.
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2018-12-03T22:17:28Z edw: Perfect. Thanks, pjb.
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2018-12-03T23:58:30Z jonaslund: Riastradh: what's the definition of bounded balanced trees ?
2018-12-04T00:00:16Z jonaslund: ah, tree's that stores the weight (sum of nodes) and can rebalance on that info
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2018-12-04T01:58:31Z Riastradh: jonaslund: There are various kinds of bb-trees with slightly different criteria, but yes, in all of them you store the number nodes under each branch and balance based on that.
2018-12-04T01:59:04Z Riastradh: Which is how it also works as an order statistic tree.
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2018-12-04T02:00:05Z Riastradh: For a decade and a half one particular type of bounded-balance binary tree devised by Stephen Adams was the preferred set/map data structure of the functional language world particularly in Haskell...
2018-12-04T02:00:38Z Riastradh: (which he called `weight-balanced trees', and which appeared as wt-tree in MIT Scheme, and as Data.Set and Data.Map in GHC)
2018-12-04T02:01:12Z Riastradh: ...until I found a few years ago that that one didn't actually work, and thereby spawned a little research program in the functional language world of identifying working parameters for the balance criteria.
2018-12-04T02:01:34Z Riastradh: (Credit where credit is due: All I did was trip over the bug by finding a case that wasn't balanced; then everyone else did the hard work of analyzing the parameters.)
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2018-12-04T02:03:37Z Riastradh: Bounded-balance trees were first invented by Nievergelt and Reingold in the early '70s (published in ACM STOC'72), with a criterion that involved irrational (square root) factors.  My favourite variant is the logarithmically balanced variant proposed by Salvador Roura in 2001.
2018-12-04T02:04:44Z Riastradh: That's what MIT Scheme now uses.  GHC, I think, uses parameters for the Adams family of bounding criteria which were studied and found by Yoichi Hirai and Kazuhiko Yamamoto and others I don't remember, of which there is essentially one correct choice, or maybe two.
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2018-12-04T02:05:23Z Riastradh: amz3: Combining if with let: (cond ((foo x) => (lambda (y) ...)))
2018-12-04T02:11:08Z jonaslund: cool, heading to bed now but i'd like to read some threads on it
2018-12-04T02:13:15Z jonaslund: ah found hirais paper
2018-12-04T02:13:29Z Riastradh: Citations:
2018-12-04T02:13:33Z Riastradh:   J. Nievergelt and E.M. Reingold, `Binary search trees of bounded
2018-12-04T02:13:33Z Riastradh:      balance', Proceedings of the fourth ACM Symposium on Theory of
2018-12-04T02:13:33Z Riastradh:      Computing, pp. 137--142, 1972.
2018-12-04T02:13:36Z Riastradh:   Stephen Adams, Implemeting Sets Efficiently in a Functional
2018-12-04T02:13:37Z Riastradh:      Language, CSTR 92-10, Department of Electronics and Computer
2018-12-04T02:13:37Z Riastradh:      Science, University of Southampton, 1992.
2018-12-04T02:13:37Z Riastradh:   <http://groups.csail.mit.edu/mac/users/adams/BB/>
2018-12-04T02:13:41Z Riastradh:    Yoichi Hirai and Kazuhiko Yamamoto, `Balancing weight-balanced
2018-12-04T02:13:41Z Riastradh:      trees', Journal of Functional Programming 21(3), pp. 287--307,
2018-12-04T02:13:41Z Riastradh:      2011.
2018-12-04T02:13:41Z Riastradh:    <https://yoichihirai.com/bst.pdf>
2018-12-04T02:13:44Z Riastradh:   Salvador Roura, `A new method for balancing binary search trees',
2018-12-04T02:13:44Z Riastradh:      Automata, Languages, and Programming, Orejas, F., Spirakis, P.,
2018-12-04T02:13:46Z Riastradh:      & van Leeuwen, J. (eds), Lecture Notes in Computer Science 2076,
2018-12-04T02:13:49Z Riastradh:      pp. 469--480, Springer, 2001.
2018-12-04T02:14:13Z jonaslund: thanks, i'll peek at it tomorrow
2018-12-04T02:15:25Z Riastradh: I wrote an implementation, using the busted Adams balance criterion before I discovered it was busted, here: https://mumble.net/~campbell/scheme/bb-tree.scm
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2018-12-04T05:17:01Z jcowan: edw: notes on volunteering:  advanced random is available in Gauche (needs renaming and removing Gaucheisms), integer sets as noted are in Chibi (needs extending)
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2018-12-04T11:48:32Z amz3: I was looking for 'aif' macro, that's what will be allowed in Python 3.5
2018-12-04T11:48:43Z amz3: s/3.5/3.8/
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2018-12-04T14:06:37Z gwatt: amz3: nitpick, but I thought anaphoric macros were unhygienic?
2018-12-04T14:07:19Z amz3: I believe they are
2018-12-04T14:07:21Z gwatt: and I think the python 3.8 syntax is hygienic, as you give the name of the variable to bind to
2018-12-04T14:07:29Z amz3: yes
2018-12-04T14:07:37Z amz3: it's not exactly like aif
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2018-12-04T14:09:33Z gwatt: ok
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2018-12-04T14:41:51Z ogamita: gwatt: they're unhygienic by definition.
2018-12-04T14:43:18Z ogamita: gwatt: but you can easily modify it so the user specifies the name of the "it" variable: (if this (f)  (g (if that (h) (k this that) (m this))) (n))
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2018-12-04T14:44:14Z jcowan: Much better (and also implementable with syntax-rules)
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2018-12-04T15:04:30Z rain1: is it really unhygenic?
2018-12-04T15:05:11Z rain1: what if you do  (let ((it #f)) (if #t it it))  does it say #t or #f ?
2018-12-04T15:07:04Z jcowan: rain1: #f, certainly, but there is no macro there
2018-12-04T15:07:13Z jcowan: did you mean aif?
2018-12-04T15:13:36Z ogamita: (aif it #f it it) -> #f
2018-12-04T15:13:43Z ogamita: or rather: (aif #f it it) -> #f
2018-12-04T15:14:20Z rain1: ogamita: but that's missing the outer LET
2018-12-04T15:14:34Z rain1: my idea with the outer LET is to ask if that shadows the it keyword
2018-12-04T15:14:58Z ogamita: Oh. Yes, aif shadows it.
2018-12-04T15:15:21Z rain1: so would the version that does not shadow be hygenic?l
2018-12-04T15:15:22Z ogamita: This is why it's preferable to use a nif (named-if) that let you give a name to the condition value: (nif this (= 0 (random 2)) (nif that (= 0 (random 2)) (list this that) (list this that)) (list this)) --> (#t #t) (#t #f) or (#f)
2018-12-04T15:15:32Z rain1: like how COND uses ELSE, but if you shadow ELSE it is simply a variable
2018-12-04T15:15:53Z ogamita: This is helpful when you embed several of them or want to avoid shadiwing a variable in the outer scopes.
2018-12-04T15:16:18Z ogamita: :-)
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2018-12-04T15:18:18Z gwatt: https://srfi.schemers.org/srfi-2/srfi-2.html
2018-12-04T15:19:08Z rain1: do you see what i mean though?
2018-12-04T15:19:19Z rain1: there seems to be 2 choices for how aif should act
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2018-12-04T15:19:50Z ogamita: In CL it's simpler, COND doesn't have a else keyword. You use t or any variable you want. And CASE has an OTHERWISE keyword, but since the clauses are list designators, you can explicitely use a list to select otherwise as data: (case (quote otherwise) (foo 1) ((bar baz) 2) ((otherwise) 3) (otherwise 4)) #| --> 3 |#
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2018-12-04T15:21:26Z gwatt: rain1: How do you mean? aif is unhygienic and inserts an "it" into your branches. and-let* and other nifs do not.
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2018-12-04T15:23:05Z rain1: (cond (else 1)) ;=> 1
2018-12-04T15:23:13Z rain1: (let ((else #f)) (cond (else 1))) ;=> (void)
2018-12-04T15:23:38Z rain1: this is the hygienic way
2018-12-04T15:24:05Z rain1: so aif could be hygenic as long as (let ((it #f)) (aif #t it it)) ;=> #f
2018-12-04T15:26:07Z gwatt: but then it wouldn't be aif. anaphoric is unhygienic
2018-12-04T15:27:16Z rain1: what's wrong with the hygenic version?
2018-12-04T15:28:11Z gwatt: nothing, but anaphoric macros are unhygienic by definition
2018-12-04T15:29:06Z rain1: The term anaphora comes from linguistics
2018-12-04T15:29:25Z rain1: just because paul graham used defmacro once doesn't mean they have to be
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2018-12-04T15:30:54Z ogamita: rain1: this definition of cond is very ugly. It means that cond cannot be a simple macro, it has to be a special operator that knows about the outer lexical scope.
2018-12-04T15:30:58Z gwatt: and it seems to have caught on in usage
2018-12-04T15:32:09Z rain1: ogamita: what do you mean by 'simple macro'? I think it can be defined by syntax-rules
2018-12-04T15:34:06Z ogamita: how would it decide about else?
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2018-12-04T15:34:58Z gwatt: ogamita: That's how cond and any syntax-rules macro works
2018-12-04T15:35:00Z rain1: the macro system can check if the else symbol you wrote refers to the same scope as the else keyword in the macro or if it refers to some other scope
2018-12-04T15:43:09Z ogamita: (let ((else #f)) (cond ((identity else) 'nope) (else 'yep))) -> yep would seem better than the definition of cond above.
2018-12-04T15:43:41Z gwatt: But that's not how literal lists in syntax-rules / syntax-case work
2018-12-04T15:44:03Z rain1: I prefer the (void) way
2018-12-04T15:44:08Z ogamita: If what you say is true, then we would have to write (cond … (#t …)) instead of (cond … (else …)) notably in macros!
2018-12-04T15:44:10Z rain1: because of my mental model of scope and stuff
2018-12-04T15:44:16Z rain1: but I can see what you mean too
2018-12-04T15:44:28Z gwatt: ogamita: only when you redefine else
2018-12-04T15:44:59Z ogamita: gwatt: the point is that the redefinition of else is done in the outer scope, ie. by another programmer than the programmer who writes  the cond form (possibly in a macro).
2018-12-04T15:45:31Z ogamita: I can't believe that this is true. I'll have to check my r5rs when I'll be able to.
2018-12-04T15:45:53Z rain1: >by another programmer
2018-12-04T15:45:57Z rain1: so this raises an important point
2018-12-04T15:46:11Z rain1: we need some kind of modules/libraries to limit the scope we work in
2018-12-04T15:46:32Z rain1: if it is used in a macro it'll be ok though
2018-12-04T15:46:37Z rain1: the scope resolution is define before expansion
2018-12-04T15:47:09Z rain1: so if (m) expansd to (cond .. (else ..)) then the else in (let ((else #f)) (m)) will not shadow the one inside the code
2018-12-04T15:47:11Z rain1: cond*
2018-12-04T15:47:38Z gwatt: ogamita: only if the change is in lexical scope
2018-12-04T15:48:47Z gwatt: if `else` is redefined in a macro, and you write code using that macro, those elses are separate
2018-12-04T15:49:00Z gwatt: rudybot: eval 1
2018-12-04T15:49:11Z rudybot: gwatt: error: with-limit: out of time
2018-12-04T15:49:15Z gwatt: rudybot: eval 1
2018-12-04T15:49:21Z rudybot: gwatt: your sandbox is ready
2018-12-04T15:49:21Z rudybot: gwatt: ; Value: 1
2018-12-04T15:51:46Z gwatt: rudybot: eval (let ((else #f)) (cond (else 'wat)))
2018-12-04T15:51:47Z rudybot: gwatt: Done.
2018-12-04T15:53:46Z gwatt: rudybot: eval (let-syntax ((a (syntax-rules () ((_ expr ...) (let ((else #f)) expr ...))))) (a (cond (else 'should-see-this))))
2018-12-04T15:53:51Z rudybot: gwatt: ; Value: 'should-see-this
2018-12-04T15:53:57Z gwatt: ogamita: ^^
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2018-12-04T15:56:04Z ogamita: Well in (cond … (else …)) I don't expect a else variable to be bound to not #f.  For example: (cond (else else)) without an outer scope else should give an unbound variable else error.
2018-12-04T15:57:22Z ogamita: Therefore I don't understand why (let ((else #f)) (cond #f (else 'yep))) should return yep. Because the else in the cond is syntax, not a variable.
2018-12-04T15:58:35Z gwatt: well, that cond won't work at all
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2018-12-04T17:29:41Z Riastradh: amz3: (define-syntax python-if (syntax-rules () ((python-if x p c a) (let ((x p)) (if x c a]
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2018-12-04T17:35:23Z Riastradh: rain1: It's a good question how aif behaves with shadowing.  The sensible approach is that the _user_ of the macro has their own definition of it, then the user should get that: (let ((it 'foo) (aif #t it 'bar)) should return foo, not #t or bar.
2018-12-04T17:36:49Z Riastradh: rain1: Now what happens if we (define-syntax or (syntax-rules () ((or a b) (aif a it b)))), and try (aif 'foo (or x it) y)?  (Assume aif binds it in both branches, even though that's a little silly in the alternative branch where it's always #f.)
2018-12-04T17:44:17Z rain1: oh that is a really good question
2018-12-04T17:44:30Z rain1: I wonder if this is a case where scope sets would give an ambiguous binding error
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2018-12-04T17:45:50Z rain1: i can't decide the correct behavior should be
2018-12-04T17:46:36Z pjb: rain1: "if there is an else clause, then its <expression>s are evaluated, and the value(s) of the last one is(are) returned." is what r5rs says about the semantics of else in cond.
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2018-12-04T17:46:55Z pjb: rain1:  it doesn't say that else is evaluated as a variable when there's an outer binding. So what you said was wrong.
2018-12-04T17:47:02Z rain1: no
2018-12-04T17:50:05Z pjb: rain1: r5rs section 7.3 gives the definition of cond as syntax-case.  It contains absolutely nothing about evaluating an else variable!
2018-12-04T17:50:36Z gwatt: pjb: Identifiers that appear in <literals> are interpreted as literal identifiers to be matched against corresponding subforms of the input. A subform in the input matches a literal identifier if and only if it is an identifier and either both its occurrence in the macro expression and its occurrence in the macro definition have the same lexical binding, or the two identifiers are equal and both have no
2018-12-04T17:50:38Z gwatt: lexical binding.
2018-12-04T17:51:10Z gwatt: https://schemers.org/Documents/Standards/R5RS/HTML/r5rs-Z-H-7.html#%_sec_4.3.2
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2018-12-04T17:52:52Z gwatt: if you shadow `else', `=>', or any other syntactic keyword in the lexical scope of a macro's usage, the macro will not recognize those keywords during expansion
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2018-12-04T17:54:30Z pjb: Yes.  scheme is really broken.  I'm happy that I use CL…
2018-12-04T17:54:39Z rain1: please don't do that again
2018-12-04T17:54:53Z pjb: I mean as I demonstrated above (ogamita), this breaks entirely the hygiene.
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2018-12-04T18:20:00Z Zipheir: "if you shadow `else', `=>', or any other syntactic keyword..." So don't do that then!
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2018-12-04T18:39:34Z rain1: http://synthcode.com/scheme/irregex
2018-12-04T18:39:51Z rain1: how do I get an assoc list of ((name . "result substring") ...)?
2018-12-04T18:40:18Z rain1: I thought it would be (irregex-match-names (irregex-match but that just gives ((name . 1) (.. . 2) ..)
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2018-12-04T19:24:19Z ecraven: anyone doing prometheus metrics with Scheme?
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2018-12-04T20:10:37Z nisstyre: ecraven: no but tell me more
2018-12-04T20:10:48Z nisstyre: isn't prometheus just a bunch of yaml crap?
2018-12-04T20:10:59Z nisstyre: or do you mean reading the metrics?
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2018-12-04T20:14:34Z buhman: is using "apply values" with let-values idiomatic?
2018-12-04T20:14:57Z rain1: can you show an example
2018-12-04T20:15:11Z buhman: (let-values (((a b) (apply values '(1 2)))))
2018-12-04T20:16:08Z nisstyre: buhman: does your Scheme have the "match" form?
2018-12-04T20:16:16Z buhman: yes
2018-12-04T20:16:45Z nisstyre: then why not just do (match '(1 2) ((list a b) ...))
2018-12-04T20:17:12Z buhman: oh, I thought you needed (a . (b . '())
2018-12-04T20:17:17Z nisstyre: not to my knowledge
2018-12-04T20:17:21Z nisstyre: you don't in Racket at least
2018-12-04T20:17:44Z nisstyre: > (match '(4 2) [(list a b) (* a b)])
2018-12-04T20:17:46Z nisstyre: 8
2018-12-04T20:18:40Z buhman: hmm, chicken's matchable says that does not match
2018-12-04T20:18:53Z nisstyre: maybe you need a different syntax, I don't know Chicken
2018-12-04T20:20:20Z rain1: `(,a ,b) could also work
2018-12-04T20:21:30Z buhman: ah it does
2018-12-04T20:22:08Z buhman: also (a b) , which I never even bothered to try
2018-12-04T20:23:12Z rain1: oh i wouldn't expect that to work
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2018-12-04T20:24:50Z nisstyre: rain1: (a b) is basically an unquoted list I think
2018-12-04T20:25:09Z rain1: if you defined a record named a would it stop working?
2018-12-04T20:25:18Z rain1: (with 1 field)
2018-12-04T20:25:57Z nisstyre: I don't know, maybe if the match form somehow tries to associate the name of an identifier with that?
2018-12-04T20:26:08Z buhman: it has ($ struct ...) for records, so maybe not?
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2018-12-04T21:00:37Z Riastradh: rain1: My assessment is that the correct answer is that that way to define or shouldn't be any different from any other way to define or -- hygiene is about reliable composition, and if the `it' from aif leaked into the user of the `or', then it would fail to compose.
2018-12-04T21:03:13Z Riastradh: That is, you couldn't reliably use aif to build other macros, because the implementation of aif would leak through them.
2018-12-04T21:04:22Z buhman: http://paste.debian.net/1054377/ if I only need to deal with two-element lists, should I use (sort) or (if)?
2018-12-04T21:04:25Z Riastradh: Of course you could always expand, say, (and-it x y) to (and-it x (let ((,it it)) y)) where ,it means a name introduced by the macro and-it for y to see as `it'.  aif remains an implementation detail of and-it; the name introduction of and-it is and-it's doing alone.
2018-12-04T21:04:51Z Riastradh: buhman: I would probably just use if for that.
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2018-12-04T21:05:17Z buhman: paired with match as written?
2018-12-04T21:05:24Z Riastradh: Sure.
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2018-12-04T21:23:49Z rain1: that way of looking at it is appreciated Riastradh
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2018-12-04T21:27:35Z Riastradh: It's worth noting that naive explicit renaming as Jonathan Rees articulated back in the early '90s doesn't support this.
2018-12-04T21:27:41Z Riastradh: I forget whether I figured out a good way to do it in riaxpander.
2018-12-04T21:27:55Z Riastradh: And I don't remember whether either of the schools of syntax-case does it right.
2018-12-04T21:28:13Z Riastradh: I'd guess that Andre van Tonder's stuff gets it right but I don't know.
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2018-12-04T21:35:21Z amerigo: anybody here read little typer?
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2018-12-04T21:36:49Z gwatt: amerigo: I've started looking through it
2018-12-04T21:37:15Z amerigo: what's your opinion?
2018-12-04T21:39:12Z gwatt: I'm not sure I've seen enough to form a good opinion. I'm in the introductory portion.
2018-12-04T21:40:04Z amerigo: i ordered it, but probably its going to arrive after new year
2018-12-04T21:40:37Z gwatt: I'm not familiar with dependent types, so once I reach that I expect to be more confused
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2018-12-04T21:54:24Z amerigo: i don't even know what dependent types are, but i really liked the previous books
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2018-12-04T21:59:17Z lmln: here's some stuff from the book https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1BWYy2-WM-o
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2018-12-04T22:47:28Z Zipheir: amerigo: Reading it now. It's very good.
2018-12-04T22:49:16Z Zipheir: amerigo: There's significantly more foundation-work to go through compared to the other books in the series, so it's starting to stretch the "Little" label.
2018-12-04T22:50:24Z Zipheir: The only real disappointment thus far is that they weren't able to implement the book's language in portable Scheme--Pie is Racket-only.
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2018-12-04T23:10:29Z lmln: not because of the ide features?
2018-12-04T23:11:23Z jcowan: Top-level else is bound to a syntax definition that reports a syntax error; it is not an undefined variable.
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2018-12-04T23:12:05Z pjb: It's not specified, it's some implementation extension, right?
2018-12-04T23:12:33Z jcowan: It is specified, but not all Schemes conform.
2018-12-04T23:13:05Z jcowan: What is more, it is exported from the base library, or should be.
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2018-12-05T00:24:30Z Riastradh: jonaslund: Learn anything interesting about bb trees?
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2018-12-06T08:54:56Z Riastradh: foof: > (atan (- 0.) -1.)
2018-12-06T08:54:57Z Riastradh: 3.141592653589793
2018-12-06T08:55:01Z Riastradh: Should be -pi, not pi.
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2018-12-06T09:08:39Z ecraven: Riastradh: you haven't perchance put all those recent tests you are running into some single location, so they could be used to create a full test-suite for other Schemes?
2018-12-06T09:08:52Z Riastradh: mit-scheme/tests
2018-12-06T09:09:26Z ecraven: would you be averse to my adapting them in https://github.com/ecraven/r7rs-coverage?
2018-12-06T09:10:03Z Riastradh: Sure, go ahead.
2018-12-06T09:11:04Z ecraven: thanks
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2018-12-06T09:39:23Z jonaslund: Riastradh: Skimmed through the Hirai paper, i've implemented AVL and some structurally fixed variant in the past so it was interersting to consider balancing in a WBT
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2018-12-06T14:45:03Z edw: I don't have my copy of the Lisp 1.5 manual; anyone know off hand what the S in s-expressions means? Symbol Symbolic?
2018-12-06T14:46:00Z Inline: right
2018-12-06T14:46:12Z Inline: so what would be an m-expression ?
2018-12-06T14:47:07Z edw: student: "X or Y?" sensei: "True" student: "Gimme a break."
2018-12-06T14:47:28Z edw: Let me find a damn PDF.
2018-12-06T14:48:57Z jcowan: Meta
2018-12-06T14:49:37Z jcowan: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M-expression
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2018-12-06T14:50:45Z edw: Weismann(1967) suggests "symbolic expression."
2018-12-06T14:52:18Z jcowan: Symbolic, definitely
2018-12-06T14:52:38Z jcowan: "Another reason for the initial acceptance of awkwardnesses in the internal form of LISP is that we still expected to switch to writing programs as M-expressions. The project of defining M-expressions precisely and compiling them or at least translating them into S-expressions was neither finalized nor explicitly abandoned. It just receded into the indefinite future, and a new generation of programmers appeared who preferred
2018-12-06T14:52:38Z jcowan: internal notation to any FORTRAN-like or ALGOL-like notation that could be devised." --JMcC
2018-12-06T14:52:49Z jcowan: We are (the heirs of) that new generation
2018-12-06T14:54:57Z ogamita: And you can always implement M-expressions: https://www.informatimago.com/develop/lisp/com/informatimago/small-cl-pgms/m-expression/index.html
2018-12-06T14:55:06Z ogamita: or any other syntax.
2018-12-06T14:56:28Z edw: I'm nearly done my parser which reads S-expressions that include hashes, sets, vectors, discarded expressions, and lambda expressions, via {...}, #{...}, [...], #_..., and #(...). I Need a pithier name for this language  than "Clojure-style S-expressions."
2018-12-06T14:56:40Z wasamasa: EDN
2018-12-06T14:57:05Z edw: wasamasa: EDN doesn't include lambda expressions.
2018-12-06T14:57:12Z wasamasa: oh well
2018-12-06T14:58:35Z edw: But at the moment the language is parsed via `parse-edn' so yeah, I'm with you. Also, code is data is code is objects is lambdas blah blah blah but "extensible DATA notation" is perhaps not a fitting term for the language that a code reader parses.
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2018-12-06T15:04:48Z rain1: cool edw what are you making it for?
2018-12-06T15:09:47Z edw: The reader is Clojure's killer feature. I am replicating it so Scheme can take advantage of its superior expressiveness e.g. with procedure definitions, variable binding, anonymous lambdas, etc. And of course object literals for hash tables and sets.
2018-12-06T15:10:10Z edw: And keywords.
2018-12-06T15:11:41Z edw: I'm _not_ writing a Clojure->Scheme translator.
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2018-12-06T15:15:00Z rain1: nice!
2018-12-06T15:19:52Z edw: Here is a small sample of where I might be going: https://gist.github.com/edw/8c2ec6b24eb58ecd699af3bdc8a99316
2018-12-06T15:20:48Z edw: Now, with fewer grammatical errors.
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2018-12-06T15:53:05Z jcowan: I'll gladly read this, but I can't agree that any revised reader is a killer feature.  The KFs of Clojure imo are the tight Java integration, the immutability, and (from the Lisp pov) the treatment of familiar Lisp things like lists as an abstraction rather than a concrete data type.
2018-12-06T15:53:35Z jcowan: The whole history of Lisp from Lisp 2 onward is littered with revised readers that went nowhere.
2018-12-06T15:54:24Z jcowan: lots of original documents at http://www.softwarepreservation.org/projects/LISP/lisp2
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2018-12-06T16:37:44Z edw: jcowan: I don't disagree with any of your points. The enhanced reader is an enabling technology that allows many of those things to be combined elegantly. I'm not doing this to _just_ do the reader. Channeling Clojure's protocol orientation (where e.g. vectors and hashes and sets are all apply-able) i.e. "abstraction rather than concrete types" is next on my list.
2018-12-06T16:48:18Z edw: It's (at least) three orthogonal projects. One one hand there's an enhanced reader which delivers yawn yes map et al. literals and lambda shortcuts but much more interestingly, rich and concise destructuring binding forms. Then there's protocol-aware APPLY/EVAL. And finally you have a different set of default core language procedures e.g. immutable CONS.
2018-12-06T16:48:53Z edw: s/One one/on one/
2018-12-06T16:49:03Z rain1: I do find immutable cons a pain, like with assoc lists
2018-12-06T16:51:21Z edw: rain1: Riffing a bit on jcowan's comment above, that you're thinking about alists vs hash tables when you access a map is barbaric. Your map interface should be consistent asnd then implementations should make tradeoffs and know when to switch between an alist and a hash table.
2018-12-06T16:52:34Z edw: IIRC Clojure models small maps as arrays or MapEntry objects. The object then gets promoted to a hash table if you assoc enough elements into it. (More than ten, again, IIRC.)
2018-12-06T16:52:44Z edw: s/arrays or/arrays of/
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2018-12-06T17:41:05Z Riastradh: Heh.  The key killer for Clojure is the tight Java integration.  Why would you want to near that world.
2018-12-06T17:42:47Z gwatt: because you work for a large, risk-averse company and java is industry standard
2018-12-06T17:45:56Z qu1j0t3 deploys pure FP on JVM
2018-12-06T17:49:33Z edw: Riastradh: Yes, for Blub programmers.
2018-12-06T17:50:07Z rain1: i forget the moral of the blub thing
2018-12-06T17:50:25Z rain1: was it that lisp is the best language?
2018-12-06T17:50:26Z qu1j0t3: maybe there wasn't a coherent one
2018-12-06T17:50:32Z qu1j0t3: given where it came from
2018-12-06T17:51:14Z Riastradh: `Moral' is obviously not the right word here, given where it came from.
2018-12-06T17:51:17Z edw: rain1: Obvs.
2018-12-06T17:53:03Z edw: Writing in Clojure allowed me to say, "We extensively leverage the Java and JVM ecosystem" to investors and potential acquirers and still write Lisp all day. And it allowed me to deploy my apps on Heroku. And a lot of other things.
2018-12-06T17:53:46Z tautologico: it's like the hard Sapir-Whorf hypothesis applied to programming languages
2018-12-06T17:53:47Z edw: Which is my way of agreeing with Riastradh. But
2018-12-06T17:54:03Z Riastradh preens
2018-12-06T17:54:05Z tautologico: the blub stuff, I mean
2018-12-06T17:56:41Z qu1j0t3: Riastradh: lol
2018-12-06T18:02:52Z edw: tautologico: At some coarse level it's obviously true. In C or assembly or BASIC, you're not spending time thinking about how you can write higher-order functions. (Though yes, there is C's quicksort with its compare argument.)
2018-12-06T18:04:03Z tautologico: edw: yes, there is a difference between "hard" Sapir-Whorf and "soft" Sapir-Whorf though :)
2018-12-06T18:04:15Z edw: But whether the topology is anything like PG's tower/totem pole is another story.
2018-12-06T18:06:27Z edw: Something more like a web of related things. And it's good to get acquainted with as much of that web of techniques as possible. (That's a nice thing about Scheme's lack of fanaticism. If you can fit it into parens (and you _can_) you can employ it in Scheme.) That's where Java is particularly insane IMO: no bare functions. Everything is part of a class or instance
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2018-12-06T20:04:20Z Zipheir: "We leverage the Java ecosystem. And, with further funding, we may be able to increase our leverage such that the Java ecosystem can be pushed off this very tall cliff."
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2018-12-06T20:47:42Z jcowan: "Blub" is a concept like "premature ejaculator"; the latter means "a man who comes faster than his doctor does."  Similarly, Blub is any language that is less expressive than the language you like best.
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2018-12-06T20:48:19Z qu1j0t3: people have had trouble defining ``expressive'', too
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2018-12-06T20:59:46Z Zipheir: "Blub" redirects to "Paul Graham".
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2018-12-06T21:02:26Z Zipheir: It seems he meant it to be a language of comfortable expressiveness for those who are used to programming in it.
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2018-12-06T22:23:37Z edw: Zipheir: Some truth there. I got to the point where I was mostly managing people, so.I was mostly code-doodling in Scheme and Elisp and no longer had to pretend to care about Clojure's new spec feature and a bunch of other b.s.
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2018-12-06T23:44:54Z mejja: Riastradh,  Reader support for nan payloads is a pretty cool idea.
2018-12-06T23:46:14Z Riastradh: mejja: TODO: - reader notation for qNaN vs sNaN, and for NaN payload
2018-12-06T23:47:04Z LeoNerd read about NaN-boxing in JS VMs a while ago... scary stuff
2018-12-06T23:47:13Z Riastradh: Heh.
2018-12-06T23:47:22Z Riastradh: I did that in a toy Scheme a decade ago.
2018-12-06T23:47:38Z Riastradh: Last time I looked at the JS VMs they did it in a really stupid way, but I forget the details.
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2018-12-06T23:52:18Z jcowan: IMO the Right Thing is to have a special prefix followed by 8 or 16 hex digits, representing the float exactly.  This is fast, has no roundoff issues, and captures the NaN payload.
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2018-12-06T23:57:13Z mejja: something like (parameterize ((param:printer-radix 16)) (write (flo:nan-payload +nan.3735928559))) => #xdeadbeef
2018-12-06T23:58:41Z jonaslund: Riastradh: different VM's do it differently. I think the main variants are NaN and NuN (NuN is basically xor the NAN pattern of the top bits representing a NAN) with the reasoning that values are pointers rather than numbers.
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2018-12-07T00:14:16Z jcowan: the latter scheme is punboxing
2018-12-07T00:14:52Z jcowan: https://wingolog.org/archives/2011/05/18/value-representation-in-javascript-implementations (plus corrective comments and side reference to Riastradh)
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2018-12-07T00:58:31Z Riastradh: jonaslund: That's probably what I thought `gee, that seems stupid' about years ago when I came upon it, and which in retrospect I regret ascribing stupidity to.
2018-12-07T01:00:04Z jonaslund: (corr, was to be ... values are usually pointers rather than ... although maybe that was understandable  )
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2018-12-07T01:04:16Z Riastradh: mejja: Why decimal?
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2018-12-07T01:22:05Z mejja: default reader base is 10, right?
2018-12-07T01:22:28Z Riastradh: You think the NaN notation should depend on the ordinary number radix?
2018-12-07T01:25:05Z Riastradh: Counterpoint: NaN payloads are essentially not numerical; it's their bit patterns that matter.
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2018-12-07T12:50:12Z SopaXorzTaker: I'm very new to Scheme.
2018-12-07T12:50:42Z SopaXorzTaker: Is there any way to define the default values for a procedure's arguments when they aren't specified, in `define`?
2018-12-07T12:51:02Z SopaXorzTaker: I've read that there was, but forgot where.
2018-12-07T12:52:39Z ecraven: SopaXorzTaker: which Scheme are you using?
2018-12-07T12:52:50Z ecraven: there is no way to do this in "standard" r7rs Scheme
2018-12-07T12:53:01Z ecraven: (unless you use case-lambda, which seems a bit roundabout)
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2018-12-07T12:59:17Z SopaXorzTaker: scm.
2018-12-07T12:59:29Z SopaXorzTaker: (should I be still using this?)
2018-12-07T12:59:36Z SopaXorzTaker: still <-> be
2018-12-07T13:01:25Z DKordic: https://bitbucket.org/cowan/r7rs-wg1-infra/src/default/KeywordArgumentsArcfide.md
2018-12-07T13:02:51Z ecraven: I think I haven't heard of anyone using this for a long time :)
2018-12-07T13:03:21Z ecraven: just asking because some implementations support this, but there's nothing standard or portable
2018-12-07T13:12:04Z SopaXorzTaker: ecraven, what interpreter should I be using in 2018?
2018-12-07T13:13:13Z ecraven: pick one ;) the one that come to my mind first are probably mit, chez, gerbil, racket, guile, chicken, chibi, gauche, gambit
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2018-12-07T13:18:17Z DKordic (Larceny . rest)
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2018-12-07T13:18:44Z ecraven: ah, sorry, larceny of course... I don't run that much, due to 32bit
2018-12-07T13:20:41Z X-Scale: Scheme48
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2018-12-07T13:37:58Z jcowan: DKordic: The problem with KeywordArgumentsArcfide is that it seriously conflicts with the R6RS/R7RS module system: a keyword is an identifier, so you can only import it from one place; you have to be very careful about conflicts, even though they cause no problems in actual use.
2018-12-07T13:39:26Z jcowan: I am now pushing the (chibi optional) library, which accepts a rest-argument list and has syntax-rules macros to process either optional or keyword arguments (it's a mistake to have both in one function, I think).  You have to quote the keywords in Chibi because they are not self-evaluating, but that's trivial.
2018-12-07T13:39:48Z ecraven: jcowan: is there a portable implementation of that?
2018-12-07T13:40:48Z jcowan: I will put forth this proposal in the Yellow Edn (syntax) and self-eval keywords (but without CL-style lambda lists) in the Green
2018-12-07T13:41:32Z jcowan: ecraven: The Chibi impl appears to be portable:  Chicken compiles it without a hiccup, and so does Guile.
2018-12-07T13:41:42Z ecraven: ah, cool, I'll play with it in chez later
2018-12-07T13:42:32Z jcowan: https://raw.githubusercontent.com/ashinn/chibi-scheme/master/lib/chibi/optional.scm
2018-12-07T13:42:54Z jcowan: Of course you'll need a different R6RS library wrapper
2018-12-07T13:43:22Z ecraven: ah, that's ok, I'm starting to have nice wrappers for most of r7rs in chez ;D
2018-12-07T13:43:30Z jcowan: Unfortunately for whatever reason it is not documented in the Chibi manual
2018-12-07T13:43:34Z ecraven: except for library syntax, that'd be good some day
2018-12-07T13:43:44Z ecraven: yea, that's where I looked, I'll just read the source
2018-12-07T13:47:40Z jcowan wonders how hard it would be to refit one of the psyntax-style expanders that does R7RS into Chez
2018-12-07T13:51:29Z ecraven: I don't know enough about chez internals, but it seems to me that as it already supports #!chezscheme and #!r6rs, it should at least be possible to add #!r7rs in some way
2018-12-07T13:54:57Z jcowan nods
2018-12-07T13:55:22Z ecraven: hm.. (chibi optionals) doesn't offer some define-* wrapper, right?
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2018-12-07T13:57:00Z jcowan: No
2018-12-07T13:57:33Z jcowan: But it shouldn't be hard for a good syntax-rules programmer (which I am not)
2018-12-07T13:57:49Z ecraven: yea, just wondering.. not ideal to have too many define-* variants anyway
2018-12-07T13:57:51Z jcowan: Funny how most implementation support for R6 is kinda halfhearted
2018-12-07T13:58:13Z ecraven: it is? I thought the actual r6rs Schemes were all full R6RS
2018-12-07T13:58:34Z jcowan: Racket and Chez support it as one option of many, and Guile and Larceny break the rules (especially the MUSTard) when it suits them.
2018-12-07T13:59:02Z jcowan: They work fine for practical R6RS programmers, though
2018-12-07T13:59:12Z jcowan: I'm using Guile as an R6RS with barely a hiccup
2018-12-07T13:59:33Z jcowan: The systems that are R6RS-only aren't very popular or much maintained.
2018-12-07T14:00:07Z ecraven: indeed.. as unfortunate as this is for those who prefer R6RS :-/
2018-12-07T14:00:15Z jcowan nods
2018-12-07T14:00:33Z ecraven: optional.scm works fine in chez, however let-keyword* is missing symbol->keyword* (which is not defined in optional.scm)
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2018-12-07T14:01:04Z jcowan: Huh
2018-12-07T14:01:09Z ecraven: ah, it's syntax defined in optional.sld
2018-12-07T14:01:13Z jcowan: yeah
2018-12-07T14:01:22Z ecraven: using er-macro-transformer, so not very portable :-/
2018-12-07T14:01:22Z jcowan: "I returned, and saw under the sun, that the race is not to the swift, nor the battle to the strong, neither yet bread to the wise, nor yet riches to men of understanding, nor yet favour to men of skill; but time and chance happeneth to them all."
2018-12-07T14:01:32Z ecraven: ah, there's a cond-expand
2018-12-07T14:01:50Z jcowan: Ouch, I should have known there was a trick somewhere
2018-12-07T14:01:53Z jcowan: s/trick/catch
2018-12-07T14:02:02Z ecraven: seems there's a fast implementation for chibi and a portable one else
2018-12-07T14:02:26Z jcowan: However, I think that's only done so you can use foo: in the argument list and foo in the let parameters
2018-12-07T14:02:32Z ecraven: and that seems to work fine ;)
2018-12-07T14:02:37Z jcowan: Ah
2018-12-07T14:02:53Z ecraven: yea, not sure what I think about that, but the mechanism itself sounds good
2018-12-07T14:03:06Z ecraven: maybe with a bit of syntactic sugar, do make actually using it a bit smoother
2018-12-07T14:03:22Z ecraven: so at least on chez the five examples I tried work fine
2018-12-07T14:04:13Z ecraven: so in your opinion mixing optional (case-lambda) with keywords is not a good idea?
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2018-12-07T14:06:14Z ecraven: for example, functions that take an optional output port *and* additional keyword arguments seem like a decent idea to me
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2018-12-07T14:53:58Z jcowan: 9:49 AM <jcowan> Problem is if you leave off the port, the system will assume the first keyword is a port.
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2018-12-07T16:05:55Z edw: Is there a mega PDF of every SRFI or an easily accessible tarball or similar for every SRFI? I'm hopping on a plane for eight hours this evening and would like to stay productive.
2018-12-07T16:09:14Z gwatt: edw: there's a mega tarball on the srfi paeg
2018-12-07T16:09:19Z gwatt: page, even
2018-12-07T16:09:41Z edw: I didn't see it on srfi.schemers.org.
2018-12-07T16:10:00Z gwatt: down at the bottom
2018-12-07T16:10:49Z edw: Ah, there it is. Just after the search results.
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2018-12-07T17:19:15Z Riastradh: MIT Scheme now has +nan.1234 notation.  (I'm not sure whether it should be always hex, or respect the current radix, but for now I made it respect the current radix.)
2018-12-07T17:20:26Z Riastradh: Also +snan.1234.
2018-12-07T17:20:31Z Riastradh: +snan.0 doesn't work, obviously.
2018-12-07T17:24:02Z Riastradh: Also no longer supports the accidental notation 0+0+0+0+0+0 for 0.
2018-12-07T17:27:05Z Riastradh: (flo:trap-exceptions! (flo:exception:invalid-operation))
2018-12-07T17:27:05Z Riastradh: ;Value: 0
2018-12-07T17:27:05Z Riastradh: (flo:trapped-exceptions)
2018-12-07T17:27:05Z Riastradh: ;Value: 1
2018-12-07T17:27:05Z Riastradh: (+ +nan.123 0)
2018-12-07T17:27:07Z Riastradh: ;Value: +nan.123
2018-12-07T17:27:10Z Riastradh: (+ +snan.123 0)
2018-12-07T17:27:12Z Riastradh: ;Invalid floating-point operation
2018-12-07T17:29:48Z Riastradh: Curiously, (/ 0. 0.) gives -nan.0, something I'd never noticed before.
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2018-12-07T17:55:41Z gwatt: Riastradh: that behavior appears to be new. My mit-scheme (Release 9.1.1) says ";Invalid floating-point operation"
2018-12-07T17:55:52Z Riastradh: gwatt: Correct.  I just committed it this morning.
2018-12-07T17:55:57Z gwatt: Ah
2018-12-07T17:56:23Z gwatt: And ChezScheme thinks (/ 0. 0.) should be +nan.0
2018-12-07T17:57:20Z Riastradh: I also changed it since 9.1.1 (and since 10.1) to not trap floating-point exceptions by default; previously they trapped by default in all environments supporting traps.
2018-12-07T17:57:36Z Riastradh: gwatt: Does Chez's printer distinguish +nan.0 from -nan.0 or +nan.1234?
2018-12-07T17:58:21Z gwatt: +nan.0 and -nan.0 are both valid and distinct, +nan.1234 is not supported
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2018-12-07T18:04:08Z Riastradh: In C, what does the following fragment print on your machine?   volatile double d = 0; union { unsigned long long i; double d; } u = { .d = d/d }; printf("%016llx\n", u.i);
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2018-12-07T18:05:55Z gwatt: Riastradh: fff8000000000000
2018-12-07T18:06:45Z Riastradh: OK, so that's what I called -nan.0.
2018-12-07T18:06:57Z Riastradh: Apparently Chez interprets the sign bit in reverse for NaNs.
2018-12-07T18:09:15Z gwatt: Ah, I lied. Chez doesn't distinguish between +nan.0 and -nan.0
2018-12-07T18:09:25Z Riastradh: OK, then, so the reader might but the printer does not.
2018-12-07T18:09:39Z Riastradh: I taught MIT Scheme to print the sign and the payload.
2018-12-07T18:09:50Z gwatt: No, they're the same. (eq? +nan.0 -nan.0) => #t in chez
2018-12-07T18:10:12Z gwatt: I of course asked chez using = before
2018-12-07T18:10:18Z Riastradh: So, Chez's _reader_ doesn't distinguish the notations either.
2018-12-07T18:10:31Z gwatt: It converts -nan.0 to +nan.0
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2018-12-07T18:10:39Z Riastradh: Who knows what `+nan.0' means in Chez!
2018-12-07T18:10:58Z Riastradh: There are umpteen bazillion different possible NaN values; it could be any one of them.
2018-12-07T18:11:02Z gwatt: I guess the idea is that sign isn't all that important if it's not a number
2018-12-07T18:11:04Z Riastradh: Probably a quiet NaN, at least.
2018-12-07T18:18:59Z ecraven: Riastradh: (bytevector-ieee-double-set! b 0 +nan.0 (endianness big)) -> #vu8(255 248 0 0 0 0 0 0)
2018-12-07T18:19:49Z Riastradh: So that's -nan.0, then.
2018-12-07T18:20:09Z ecraven: -nan.0 does the exact same thing
2018-12-07T18:20:58Z Riastradh: When I say `-nan.0' unqualified I mean 0xfff8000000000000, i.e. a quiet NaN with sign bit set to 1 meaning negative.
2018-12-07T18:21:14Z Riastradh: (and payload zero)
2018-12-07T18:22:52Z ecraven: hm.. so with your changes, MIT/GNU Scheme is now a good thing to prototype nanboxing on ;)
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2018-12-07T18:34:21Z Riastradh: Sure!
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2018-12-07T18:34:50Z Riastradh: Could even prototype it at high performance, if you open-coded flo:make-nan, flo:nan-payload, &c., and put all intermediates in floating-point vectors.
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2018-12-07T18:35:51Z ecraven: I still dream of a native-compiling Scheme that uses nan-boxing and creates nice inspectable and modifyable world images
2018-12-07T18:36:17Z ecraven: maybe in another 10 years I'll be closer to knowing enough to start working on that myself
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2018-12-07T19:52:38Z jcowan: R6RS and R7RS require the treatment of +nan.0 and -nan.0 as eqv?, but there's nothing to prevent a more fine-grained predicate from distinguishing them.
2018-12-07T19:52:51Z jcowan: Typically however the sign is just discarded by the reader
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2018-12-07T20:53:59Z amz3: what do you plan to work on this week end?
2018-12-07T20:54:23Z amz3 will continue to work on his editor ala emacs.
2018-12-07T20:55:40Z SopaXorzTaker: ecraven, what's NaNboxing?
2018-12-07T20:56:19Z amz3: I rewrote it from scratch using chez and last week end I made deep modification to support mutliple buffer and frames, but it's not ready yet.
2018-12-07T20:56:41Z amz3: well, going from guile to chez was the easy part.
2018-12-07T20:57:45Z amz3: "from scratch" in the above might look like it's a big work. It was less than 200 SLOC before and right now it's around 500
2018-12-07T20:58:11Z amz3: without taking into account pfds and termbox bindings
2018-12-07T20:58:52Z wasamasa: pdfs?
2018-12-07T20:59:54Z amz3: sorry, I meant pfds, persistent functional datastructure https://github.com/ijp/pfds
2018-12-07T21:00:07Z amz3: I use finger tree from that repo
2018-12-07T21:00:11Z wasamasa: ah
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2018-12-07T21:05:47Z amz3: two weeks ago I hacked together something to demonstrate the use of epoll and call/cc to implement async without callback
2018-12-07T21:05:49Z amz3: https://github.com/amirouche/xp-chez-scheme/pull/1/files
2018-12-07T21:05:59Z amz3: it works (tm)
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2018-12-07T21:15:57Z rain1: im doing some advent of code problems in scheme
2018-12-07T21:25:52Z gwatt: rain1: I've done a few as well
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2018-12-07T21:33:16Z tolja: i managed to do the first in scheme, for the rest i'll most likely stick with python
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2018-12-07T21:37:46Z rain1: I used a regex library to read the input
2018-12-07T21:37:55Z tolja: with sicp i can manage with scheme but with something like aoc i'm unable to get even started
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2018-12-07T21:44:11Z smazga: rain1: I'm doing Advent in s9fes. I suck at scheme, but it's a lot of fun.
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2018-12-07T22:22:13Z gwatt: day 2 was easy enough I though
2018-12-07T22:22:18Z gwatt: 3 looks painful
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2018-12-07T22:58:52Z amz3: https://adventofcode.com/
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2018-12-08T05:19:12Z Riastradh: jcowan: They require all NaNs to be treated as eqv?  That's silly.  It breaks the equivalence (eqv? a b) <==> (and (= a b) (eqv? (exact? a) (exact? b))), _and_ provides no way to distinguish distinct NaNs.  (eq? is no good because identical NaN values might be boxed at different addresses.)
2018-12-08T05:19:59Z Riastradh: If it were allowed that two equivalent NaN values compared eqv? then it would be reasonable to break that equivalence, but both!
2018-12-08T05:21:35Z jcowan: No, not at all.
2018-12-08T05:22:15Z jcowan: What is the case is that +nan.0 and -nan.0 need not represent distinct NaNs.
2018-12-08T05:22:35Z Riastradh: You mean MUST NOT, rather than MAY NOT?
2018-12-08T05:23:14Z jcowan: no, I mean MAY
2018-12-08T05:23:21Z Riastradh: (`Need not' could be either one, as in `Lisp hackers need not apply' versus `a Lisp need not have distinct function namespaces'.)
2018-12-08T05:23:23Z jcowan: (MAY = MAY NOT by definition)
2018-12-08T05:23:28Z jcowan hods
2018-12-08T05:23:32Z jcowan: nods, even
2018-12-08T05:24:00Z Riastradh: jcowan: OK, so what you originally said is different: `R6RS and R7RS require the treatment of +nan.0 and -nan.0 as eqv?'.
2018-12-08T05:24:03Z jcowan: What is also true is that the behavior of (and (nan? x) (nan? y) (eqv? x y)) may be either #t or #f at the will of the implementation.
2018-12-08T05:24:55Z jcowan: So what I said earlier is wrong.
2018-12-08T05:25:18Z Riastradh: OK.
2018-12-08T05:25:19Z Riastradh: That's fine.
2018-12-08T05:26:19Z jcowan: I would assume that most eqv?s on flonums would either make a bitwise comparison or use an = comparison.
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2018-12-08T05:34:19Z Riastradh: Shouldn't do bitwise comparison because that'll return false for differently signed zeros.
2018-12-08T05:35:40Z elderK: :( Guys, when did read scheme die?
2018-12-08T05:35:43Z elderK: :(
2018-12-08T05:35:53Z Riastradh: A few days ago, apparently.
2018-12-08T05:36:08Z elderK: :( I sure hope it comes back
2018-12-08T05:36:14Z elderK: If I had money, I'd donate :(
2018-12-08T05:36:27Z elderK: It would be a crying shame to lose that resource
2018-12-08T05:36:35Z Riastradh: Internet Archive still has it.
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2018-12-08T05:38:41Z elderK: Thank God for that.
2018-12-08T05:48:48Z meepdeew: what's that (read scheme)?
2018-12-08T05:49:04Z Riastradh: library.readscheme.org, a Scheme bibliography.
2018-12-08T05:49:34Z meepdeew: gotcha, thanks
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2018-12-08T06:05:07Z meepdeew: Does htdp go at all into macros or much into symbolic computing? I'm 3 chapters in to part 1 so far. While a lot has been review, I've liked the part about the interplay between info <-> data.
2018-12-08T06:07:33Z meepdeew: I see the intermezzo on quoting, but as that's just an aside (i think) is the book mostly methodology that's in no-way specific to lisps?
2018-12-08T06:13:06Z siraben: meepdeew:  SICP goes a lot on symbolic computing
2018-12-08T06:17:09Z meepdeew: Ok, cool, siraben. That's probably next on my list. I'm fairly new to the lisp world, but entirely new to schemes. Before this I read Gentle and PCL from the common lisp world and am just trying to get a sense for what makes the most sense next.
2018-12-08T06:19:23Z siraben: meepdeew: Ah, Scheme is very different from CL.
2018-12-08T06:20:16Z siraben: Much more minimal, I suppose.  It's important to note that SICP doesn't really teach Scheme, it teaches computer science  (symbolic programming, lazy programming, compilers and interpreters etc.)
2018-12-08T06:20:47Z siraben: The R5RS (or above) specs are good resources too
2018-12-08T06:23:15Z meepdeew: Thanks, I appreciate the input.
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2018-12-08T06:30:21Z siraben: No problem.  There's a lot of interesting literature written about Scheme, too.
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2018-12-08T07:24:12Z jcowan: If 0.0 and -0.0 produce different results in any case, then eqv? must return #f on them.
2018-12-08T07:27:19Z jcowan: Riastradh: So on any IEEE system, (eqv? 0.0 -0.0) should definitely be #f.  Chicken returns #t in accordance with R5RS, and Ypsilon also, which is a bug.
2018-12-08T07:28:56Z jcowan: For two ineaxact numbers to be eqv?, they must be (a) =, and (b) they  yield the same results (in the sense of eqv?) when passed as arguments to any other procedure that can be definedas a finite composition of Scheme’s standard arithmetic procedures, provided it does not result in a NaN value: thus R7RS
2018-12-08T07:30:17Z jcowan: R6RS is identical excpet that it makes no mention of NaN.
2018-12-08T07:32:04Z jcowan: Since (/ 1 0.0) => +inf.0 and (/ 1 -0.0) => -inf.0, they cannot be eqv? in either R6 or R7
2018-12-08T07:33:43Z jcowan: However, in R5RS and earlier, eqv? on inexacts is =, period.
2018-12-08T07:33:57Z Riastradh: (atan 0. -1.) and (atan -0. -1.) should be +/-pi; any system that doesn't do this and isn't running on a VAX is broken!
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2018-12-08T08:10:52Z wasamasa: can't remember who was excited about turning chibi into a megabyte of JS, but have this: https://bitmidi.com/about
2018-12-08T08:11:25Z wasamasa: 57K
2018-12-08T08:11:31Z wasamasa: this is the ballpark you're competing with
2018-12-08T08:11:46Z wasamasa: even better if you're in the single digits
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2018-12-08T12:05:55Z elazul: Hi, do you have any recommendations for learning to program scheme macros?
2018-12-08T12:08:18Z wasamasa: which kind?
2018-12-08T12:08:24Z wasamasa: there's more than one macro system in scheme
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2018-12-08T12:10:43Z elazul: Oh, I didn't know that. Would you recommend one in particular to start with?
2018-12-08T12:11:04Z wasamasa: syntax-rules
2018-12-08T12:11:22Z wasamasa: r6rs introduced syntax-case
2018-12-08T12:11:38Z wasamasa: some scheme systems have their own, like a bunch have an unhygienic define-macro
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2018-12-08T12:12:01Z wasamasa: CHICKEN has IR and ER macro transformers for breaking hygiene in a safer way
2018-12-08T12:12:17Z wasamasa: and then there's the stuff the racket people came up with, based on syntax-case
2018-12-08T12:12:28Z siraben: +1 for syntax-rules
2018-12-08T12:12:34Z siraben: It's super simple, what's left is good examples
2018-12-08T12:12:54Z wasamasa: I've got to admit, I don't have any idea how to implement syntax-rules
2018-12-08T12:14:01Z elazul: Thanks for the overview! Do you know of a good resource to learn syntax-rules?
2018-12-08T12:14:25Z siraben: wasamasa:  Simple to use, I have no clue how to implement it too
2018-12-08T12:14:32Z siraben: Something something pattern matching
2018-12-08T12:14:58Z siraben: elazul:  Eh, read the docs I suppose
2018-12-08T12:15:02Z siraben: Guile has pretty good explanations
2018-12-08T12:15:02Z wasamasa: elazul: there's a series of documents with names of the "Syntax-rules for the <adjective> <mental illness>" kind
2018-12-08T12:15:14Z siraben: https://www.gnu.org/software/guile/manual/html_node/Syntax-Rules.html
2018-12-08T12:15:30Z wasamasa: elazul: like, mildly insane, merely eccentric, etc.
2018-12-08T12:15:36Z siraben: Syntax rules for the stupid savant
2018-12-08T12:15:42Z siraben: wasamasa:  where?
2018-12-08T12:15:52Z wasamasa: I found a good intro: http://www.willdonnelly.net/blog/scheme-syntax-rules/
2018-12-08T12:16:16Z wasamasa: merely eccentric: http://www.phyast.pitt.edu/~micheles/syntax-rules.pdf
2018-12-08T12:16:51Z wasamasa: mildly insane: https://groups.google.com/forum/#!msg/comp.lang.scheme/hsM4g33joCA/GbZ1F-HGbOsJ
2018-12-08T12:17:08Z wasamasa: al petrofsky wrote alexpander, an implementation of syntax-rules in portable scheme
2018-12-08T12:17:21Z wasamasa: CHICKEN and a few other things by felix use it
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2018-12-08T12:18:14Z wasamasa: I forgot about syntactic closures: http://community.schemewiki.org/?syntactic-closures
2018-12-08T12:18:49Z elazul: wasamasa & siraben: Thanks for the suggestions! I will take a look at these resources.
2018-12-08T12:21:11Z siraben: wasamasa:  elazul: whenever macros come up I always think of Oleg http://okmij.org/ftp/Scheme/Dirty-Macros.pdf http://okmij.org/ftp/Scheme/macros.html
2018-12-08T12:21:23Z wasamasa: oleg is the insane one here :>
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2018-12-08T12:21:36Z siraben: Insane or genius?  hm
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2018-12-08T14:22:09Z jcowan: IMO Mildly Eccentric is the best.  Read it until you no longer underatand it; at that poiht you have had all you can absorb.  When you need nore, go back and reread form the begining; wash rinse repeat.  I've never made it to the end yet.
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2018-12-08T17:28:18Z amz3: https://stackoverflow.com/questions/53435720/feature-structure-unification-in-minikanren
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2018-12-08T21:58:32Z buhman: wasamasa: wow this is great!
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2018-12-08T22:39:35Z buhman: (fprintf out "#,(rect ~s ~s ~s ~s)") what is the #, magic called?
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2018-12-08T22:40:50Z Riastradh: jcowan: Mildly Insane, or Merely Eccentric?  Or did someone do a portmanteau of the two?
2018-12-08T22:42:13Z buhman: ah I guess that's not an escape
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2018-12-08T23:07:18Z wasamasa: buhman: #,(...) is syntax for some srfi to print a deserializable record
2018-12-08T23:08:40Z buhman: oh
2018-12-08T23:10:29Z buhman: https://srfi.schemers.org/srfi-10/srfi-10.html that is cool
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2018-12-08T23:57:39Z jcowan: Riastradh: Merely Eccentric.  A mashup would be interesting, though
2018-12-08T23:58:27Z jcowan: buhman: Not widely supported, though, and it has problems with phasing: a procedure to define the meaning of SRFI-10 constructs at run time that is supposed to affect behavior at read time.
2018-12-09T00:00:01Z Riastradh: Joe R* Marshofsky
2018-12-09T00:01:22Z jcowan: R for Riastradh, obviously
2018-12-09T00:02:38Z Riastradh: Joe for jcowan, obviously
2018-12-09T00:02:59Z jcowan: and let's not forget Seymour Padlipsky: https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc962
2018-12-09T00:03:30Z jcowan: one of the shortest and best early RFCs (not counting April 1 RFC's of course)
2018-12-09T00:05:34Z jcowan: sorry, s/Seymour/Michael
2018-12-09T00:05:48Z Riastradh: Michael Papert, I suppose?
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2018-12-09T00:07:05Z jcowan: Or pernaps Michael Cray
2018-12-09T00:07:35Z jcowan: Anyway, Joe's my uncle (not Bob)
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2018-12-09T00:21:44Z jcowan: Also my cousin, come to think of it.  My line of Cowans tends to repeat its male first names in each generation while mostly avoiding naming sons after their fathers.  I had an uncle and grandfather named John.
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2018-12-09T10:52:32Z amz3: I am wondering whether the feature structure unification should be done in scheme
2018-12-09T10:54:36Z amz3: instead of minikanren
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2018-12-09T15:08:06Z amz3: what's up?
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2018-12-09T15:10:10Z amz3: klovett: you are spamming
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2018-12-09T17:40:08Z alelos: hi, looking for some guidance on how to implement an assoc-merge kind of procedure. eg given '((1 . 2) (2 . 2) (2 . 2) (3 . 3)) -> ((1 . 2) (2 . 4) (3 .3))
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2018-12-09T19:35:10Z rain1: alelos: did you hget it?
2018-12-09T19:40:29Z alelos: rain1, not really still buggy
2018-12-09T19:41:23Z rain1: ok
2018-12-09T19:41:34Z rain1: so a way to do this is to make an insert function
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2018-12-09T19:42:01Z rain1: (i '(1 . 2) '((2 . 4) (3 .3))) ;=> '((1 . 2) (2 . 4) (3 . 3))
2018-12-09T19:42:18Z rain1: (i '(3 . 3) '()) ;=> '((3 . 3))
2018-12-09T19:42:35Z rain1: the insert function just adds one pair
2018-12-09T19:42:59Z rain1: but if the key already exists it would add to that pair instead of creating a new pair
2018-12-09T19:43:15Z rain1: (i '(2 . 2) '((2 . 2) (3 . 3))) ;=> '((2 . 4) (3 . 3))
2018-12-09T19:43:36Z rain1: if you have this insert function then you can use fold right to implement assoc-merge
2018-12-09T19:43:45Z alelos: i think i have a somewhat insert proc now
2018-12-09T19:43:56Z alelos: but how do you apply it on the input? with a fold?
2018-12-09T19:43:57Z rain1: good. want to show it?
2018-12-09T19:44:06Z alelos: whats the go to paste site these days?
2018-12-09T19:44:10Z rain1: bpaste.net
2018-12-09T19:44:24Z rain1: yes fold-right. you can implement it if it isn't available
2018-12-09T19:44:37Z alelos: i have srfi-1
2018-12-09T19:46:10Z alelos: https://bpaste.net/show/25d940b2e996
2018-12-09T19:47:26Z rain1: that looks really good
2018-12-09T19:47:38Z rain1: I would do (fold-right insert-pair '() input)  instead of car/cdr though
2018-12-09T19:48:21Z alelos: so the issue is that with the fold i get an error on the (car new-pair) call, inside the assoc
2018-12-09T19:48:25Z alelos: i cant figure why
2018-12-09T19:48:36Z Zipheir: Maybe get rid of the mutation in insert-pair...
2018-12-09T19:48:52Z alelos: Zipheir, the set-cdr!
2018-12-09T19:48:53Z alelos: ?
2018-12-09T19:49:26Z Zipheir: Nah, never mind, it works.
2018-12-09T19:50:43Z rain1: a list can either be () or (car . cdr)
2018-12-09T19:50:52Z rain1: any time you take car of someting you're assuming it's not null
2018-12-09T19:51:24Z rain1: so basically you need a (if (null? pairs) .. case
2018-12-09T19:52:07Z alelos: rain1, it works with base case '() as you suggested
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2018-12-09T19:52:51Z alelos: but im confused, is fold-right using the '() as the last case? I would expect the (car new-pair) to fail given the base is null
2018-12-09T19:54:55Z rain1: hmm true
2018-12-09T19:54:57Z rain1: im not sure
2018-12-09T19:56:24Z Zipheir: The error is definitely from (car new-pair)
2018-12-09T19:57:33Z Zipheir: I don't think (car input) is the right base element to pass to fold-right.
2018-12-09T19:57:45Z Zipheir: Shouldn't it be the empty list?
2018-12-09T19:57:59Z alelos: yes indeed with the empty list as rain1 suggested, it works
2018-12-09T19:58:25Z alelos: im trying to get my head around why
2018-12-09T19:58:56Z rain1: going back to what Zipheir said earlier
2018-12-09T19:59:06Z rain1: the way with assoc then set-cdr! is good and works
2018-12-09T19:59:19Z rain1: but you can do it all in one go, without using assoc or mutation
2018-12-09T19:59:35Z rain1: I think it will make the insert function simpler
2018-12-09T19:59:54Z alelos: i would like to avoid the set-cdr! call indeed, couldn't figure a way out of it
2018-12-09T19:59:56Z alelos: any hints?
2018-12-09T20:00:02Z Zipheir: recursion
2018-12-09T20:00:10Z rain1: yeah you basicalyl reimplement assoc
2018-12-09T20:00:28Z rain1: except that you change the pair when you find it, or if you hit the end return (list pair)
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2018-12-09T20:02:33Z Zipheir: One possible approach is to cdr down the list until you find a pair with a matching car, then cons a merged pair onto the rest of the list.
2018-12-09T20:02:44Z Zipheir: For non-matching pairs, just cons them onto the recursion.
2018-12-09T20:03:29Z Zipheir: (I think this should be linear time, as well)
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2018-12-09T20:10:24Z Zipheir: https://paste.debian.net/1055075/
2018-12-09T20:10:28Z Zipheir: ^^ alelos
2018-12-09T20:10:55Z Zipheir: I think that should do it. The caars and cdars could be eliminated, but this is the quick version.
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2018-12-09T20:11:39Z Zipheir: Oops, last line should be (cons (car ps) (insert-pair new (cdr ps))
2018-12-09T20:12:03Z alelos: Zipheir, digesting.. :)
2018-12-09T20:12:25Z Zipheir: Fixed https://paste.debian.net/1055076/
2018-12-09T20:14:26Z alelos: new is the base case? this cannot be the empty list now correct?
2018-12-09T20:14:53Z alelos: i mean without a fold-right
2018-12-09T20:17:40Z Zipheir: new is the new pair. (fold-right insert-pair '() INPUT) should work
2018-12-09T20:18:20Z alelos: indeed
2018-12-09T20:18:41Z Zipheir: Since the null case of insert-pair is to return (list new), so (fold-right insert-pair '() '((1 . 2))) -> (list '(1 . 2)), as you'd expect.
2018-12-09T20:19:43Z alelos: thanks a lot for the help Zipheir and rain1 :)
2018-12-09T20:20:16Z Zipheir: alelos: Good luck :)
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2018-12-09T20:37:25Z Zipheir: rain1: Sorry for duplicating your answer :) I was too busy writing up an example to notice you'd just suggested the same thing.
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2018-12-10T12:13:49Z ecraven: sometimes I miss keyword arguments like :key for filter or sort :-/
2018-12-10T12:22:11Z ogamita: (define (fook list . keys) (let ((test (get keys :test)) (key (get keys :key))) (foo list test key)))
2018-12-10T12:25:53Z ecraven: that won't work for map (which takes rest lists)
2018-12-10T12:26:22Z ecraven: (yes, I didn't mention map, but there's quite a lot of functions where :key would be useful, same as :test and so on)
2018-12-10T12:30:29Z ogamita: That said, the point of scheme is to use functions.   (sort (wrap key <) list)   with: (define (wrap key less) (lambda (a b) (less (key a) (key b))))
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2018-12-10T12:54:46Z ecraven: ogamita: that seems like a reasonable solution, thanks
2018-12-10T12:55:33Z ecraven: hm.. has anyone here implemented a websockets server? do I understand correctly that after the http connection has been upgraded, I need to remember that, because all future requests will be websockets format, and there's no indication of that in the actual request?
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2018-12-10T13:13:38Z rnmhdn: any thoughts on a 1:15 h nice talk related to functional programming?
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2018-12-10T14:14:08Z siraben: rnmhdn:  that's a very broad question
2018-12-10T14:14:39Z rain1: it's also bizarrely specific
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2018-12-10T15:03:43Z ecraven: hm.. I wish there were a portable way to seek in input bytevectors :-/
2018-12-10T15:03:59Z ecraven: jcowan: any plans on adding that?
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2018-12-10T15:13:04Z rnmhdn: :))
2018-12-10T15:13:55Z rnmhdn: siraben: the textbook for the course is EOPL but I think anything interesting related to functional programming is also acceptable.
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2018-12-10T15:14:58Z rnmhdn: rain1: as for the 1:15 hours something between 1-1:30 is fine. but that's about how much time I have.
2018-12-10T15:17:08Z jcowan: ecraven: I don't understand the idea
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2018-12-10T16:42:03Z ecraven: jcowan: I use bytevector ports a lot for parsing binary data. sometimes that data contains an offset, so I want to "seek" to that offset in the port (making the next read-u8 return the next value at that offset)
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2018-12-10T16:57:46Z jcowan: Ah, okay.  Yes, advanced file functions including that one are coming in the Greek Docket, since they are unavoidably not portable
2018-12-10T16:57:51Z jcowan: ecraven: ^^
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2018-12-10T17:30:55Z ecraven: jcowan: why are they not portable? (as in, how is read-u8 any more or less portable than input-bytevector-seek)? or do you just mean "not portably implementable on top of r7rs small"?
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2018-12-10T18:59:05Z gwatt: also not portable to all binary input ports
2018-12-10T18:59:30Z Riastradh: Not portable?
2018-12-10T18:59:35Z Riastradh: What, does Windows not have seek?
2018-12-10T19:21:59Z ecraven: gwatt: I'm speaking specifically of binary input ports, which I imagine are just bytevectors with an index
2018-12-10T19:22:04Z ecraven: so it's trivial to seek in them
2018-12-10T19:22:12Z ecraven: of course, a generic "seek'
2018-12-10T19:22:15Z ecraven:  interface would be great too
2018-12-10T19:22:55Z ecraven: I'll just go the Schemely way and design my own binary io abstraction :P
2018-12-10T19:23:00Z gwatt: if the binary-input-port is representing a socket, pip, tty, or whatever, then you can't seek on it
2018-12-10T19:23:09Z gwatt: pipe, not pip
2018-12-10T19:23:43Z ecraven: yes, but my use case is whatever (open-input-bytevector ..) returns
2018-12-10T19:24:16Z ecraven: and it's not like other systems don't manage to have seek for all kinds of ports, some will just error out
2018-12-10T19:25:12Z gwatt: ah, I see
2018-12-10T19:25:45Z ecraven: I could of course just pass around a bytevector + offset everywhere, but that seems less ideal than using a binary input port
2018-12-10T19:26:12Z ecraven: as I'd probably just create my own record type my-binary-input-port, which would not work with all the normal functions :-/
2018-12-10T19:26:43Z ecraven: does r6rs support seeking on ports?
2018-12-10T19:27:08Z ecraven: set-port-position! seems like it
2018-12-10T19:28:15Z ecraven: and that works fine
2018-12-10T19:29:53Z gwatt: It looks like set-port-position! is always absolute, so you need to know your current offset anyway
2018-12-10T19:30:17Z ecraven: (port-position port) ;)
2018-12-10T19:30:41Z ecraven: also, the offsets might be absolute anyway
2018-12-10T19:31:12Z gwatt: true
2018-12-10T19:31:24Z ecraven: but yes, set-port-position! does not provide a full interface to seek / tell
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2018-12-10T20:01:39Z jcowan: ecraven: I meant "not implementable on top of R7RS-small"
2018-12-10T20:01:51Z jcowan: all such items are in the Green Edition docket
2018-12-10T20:02:50Z jcowan: and yes, a record typ encapsulating a bv and an index makes sense for this purpose
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2018-12-10T20:12:55Z amz3: what is the difference between delimited continuation and full continuation? I read the wikipedia pages but I still don't understand.
2018-12-10T20:13:27Z amz3: My understanding was that delimited continuation was a way to narrow the extend of the continuation to be able to apply some optimisations
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2018-12-10T20:16:56Z rain1: the delimited contination has 2 operators
2018-12-10T20:16:59Z rain1: reset and shift
2018-12-10T20:17:19Z rain1: the dynamic segment from reset to shift is reified as the continuation
2018-12-10T20:18:02Z rain1: call/cc only has one operator and reifies the continuation all the way up to a top level reset point
2018-12-10T20:19:22Z rain1: it's not really about optimization, I think both types are difficult to implement efficiently
2018-12-10T20:19:36Z rain1: the delimited continuations give more expressivity
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2018-12-10T20:39:38Z rain1: amz3: btw i put an answer on the minikanren question you lnked but I don't think I got through to him
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2018-12-10T20:53:43Z amz3: rain1: the conversation is happennin on minikanren mailing list, I did not fully follow so I can not summarize
2018-12-10T20:53:51Z amz3: https://groups.google.com/forum/#!forum/minikanren
2018-12-10T20:54:08Z amz3: the person has a beginning of a solution
2018-12-10T20:54:19Z amz3: hopefully they will put it on stackoverflow
2018-12-10T20:54:27Z amz3: or someone will do
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2018-12-10T21:09:59Z rain1: hm
2018-12-10T21:10:01Z rain1: m
2018-12-10T21:10:07Z rain1: they did not mention my answer on there
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2018-12-10T21:12:06Z rain1: there isa lot of talking bot nobody just implemented it
2018-12-10T21:13:26Z amz3: I don't want to give away, again, something for free with no feedback and what they are actually using it for
2018-12-10T21:13:42Z amz3: the litterature on feature structures is very low
2018-12-10T21:14:06Z amz3: I asked the person for more data, they ansewred garbage, I don't want to help then
2018-12-10T21:14:38Z rain1: i'm not sure what feature structures are useful for, they seem to have one application in parsing natural language - that might be all
2018-12-10T21:15:24Z rain1: if you look on the stack overflow comments. I explained how to do it but they can't see what I wrote because they have their mind set on the non-working approach they have been thinking about
2018-12-10T21:15:32Z rain1: when they let go of that they could start to make progress
2018-12-10T21:18:21Z amz3: it's not exactly parsing natural language, because that can be done with already known algorithm even in ambigious cases with algorithm like Earley algorithm or even minikanren can do it. The thing with Feature Structures, is that say you have two pieces of knowledge about a given subject [subject . dog] and [subject . black] you can unify (in the sens of feature strustures) to have a single piece knowledge
2018-12-10T21:18:23Z amz3: that the subject is a dog and black.
2018-12-10T21:18:36Z amz3: looking at your answer
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2018-12-10T21:19:42Z rain1: oh i didn't realize that would unify
2018-12-10T21:19:48Z rain1: to [subject . (dog black)] ?
2018-12-10T21:20:05Z rain1: or would it just have the same key multiple times
2018-12-10T21:20:32Z amz3: I already upvoted your answer :)
2018-12-10T21:20:52Z amz3: My example is not good because, let me try something else
2018-12-10T21:21:48Z amz3: I am not sure what happens in that case because indeed it's the same key
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2018-12-10T21:22:52Z amz3: e.g. [subject [type dog]] + [subject [color black]] unifies to [subject [type dog] [color black]]
2018-12-10T21:23:30Z rain1: ok
2018-12-10T21:25:37Z amz3: btw I agree with you, I did not have a clue why, but the fact that their mk solution doesn't end and requires 'cut' is a clue that it should be done in scheme
2018-12-10T21:26:14Z rain1: yeah
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2018-12-11T07:12:25Z ecraven: jcowan: the problem about that encapsulation is that all the usual functions won't work any longer :-/
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2018-12-11T12:13:13Z jcowan: ecraven: True, but there aren't that many functions to reimplement: analogues of read-u8 and peek-u8, and if desired read-bytevector and read-bytevector!
2018-12-11T12:13:24Z ecraven: jcowan: and everything that anyone builds on those
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2018-12-11T12:13:37Z ecraven: like a hypothetical binary io library, something like pack / unpack, etc.
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2018-12-11T12:13:47Z ecraven: it just seems a bit wasteful to reimplement ports just for seeking :-/
2018-12-11T12:14:40Z jcowan: One of the real limitations of Scheme is that it doesn't provide any way to hook inot existing types: you can't easily add a new kind of number or port.
2018-12-11T12:15:01Z ecraven: indeed.. any ideas on how to change that for r9rs or so?
2018-12-11T12:15:18Z ecraven: CLOS would be the obvious way to me, but that seems rather non-schemey
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2018-12-11T12:15:26Z jcowan: (There are custom ports in R6RS, but the trouble with those is that if you add some new operation like an ioctl, your custom-port API has to change
2018-12-11T12:15:44Z ecraven: yes, I've run into that with chez
2018-12-11T12:15:49Z jcowan: It's solving a simple problem with a big hammer
2018-12-11T12:15:56Z ecraven: maybe the only way to really deal with this is full-on clos
2018-12-11T12:16:00Z ecraven: dylan did that
2018-12-11T12:16:09Z ecraven: CL seems to do well with it
2018-12-11T12:16:29Z jcowan: But you can't add numbers or streams to CL either
2018-12-11T12:16:43Z ecraven: of course, I don't actually mean CLOS but just "something like CLOS, that has lots of gfs and dispatching"
2018-12-11T12:17:01Z ecraven: jcowan: well, you could if the relevant functions were gfs and not plain functions
2018-12-11T12:17:12Z jcowan nods
2018-12-11T12:17:18Z ecraven: I think dylan went that way
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2018-12-11T12:17:29Z ecraven: but even dylan made some classes sealed, in order to get decent performance
2018-12-11T12:17:35Z jcowan: and Eulisp
2018-12-11T12:17:50Z ecraven: I wonder if a compiler that recompiles things on-the-fly could get away with just recompiling many things if a new method is added
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2018-12-11T12:18:03Z ecraven: so you only pay the cost if you *actually* add extra methods
2018-12-11T12:18:27Z ecraven: someone was working on a eulisp level 0, I think?
2018-12-11T12:19:27Z ecraven: I still feel as if gfs with methods are too "imperative" or "stateful" :-/
2018-12-11T12:20:05Z ecraven: as in, you load some module, and it just adds methods to whatever generic functions
2018-12-11T12:20:18Z ecraven: somehow that feels a bit dirty to me :-/
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2018-12-11T13:01:25Z jcowan: I've thought about that too
2018-12-11T13:01:49Z jcowan: I think the answer is to make gf's persistent rather than mutable: not add-method! but with-new-method
2018-12-11T13:02:12Z jcowan: while still providing a traditional define-generic / define-method macro interface for those who want it
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2018-12-11T13:30:16Z edw: In Shinn's matcher, is there a way to match zero or one items in a pattern? A way to match {n,m} items? I see 1.. and ... (and ___) but not these.
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2018-12-11T13:47:19Z jcowan: I don't either.
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2018-12-11T13:52:22Z jcowan: I wrote a bit the other day on how _choose_ and _choice_ are only distantly related, at approximately Proto-Germanic (1500 years BP or more) time depth
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2018-12-11T13:57:35Z edw: You've reminded me of the charm of there being an app (desk accessory, actually) in classic Mac OS named "Chooser." "Open the Chooser..." we would say.
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2018-12-11T13:58:11Z edw: And I would ruminate over "chose" vs "choose."
2018-12-11T14:01:14Z edw: "How many Os? Choooser. Two Os. C-H-O-O-S..."
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2018-12-11T14:05:12Z jcowan: The verb forms are a monstrosity of partial regularization.  If everything had gone swimmingly from Old English, we would have ended up with either _cheese, chess, core(n)_ or "cheese, core, coren"
2018-12-11T14:05:50Z jcowan: as for _choice_, it was borrowed (as the _oi_ shows) from French, which borrowed it from Frankish
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2018-12-11T14:09:21Z jcowan: "While all pharmaceutical treatments have side effects, racism is not a known side effect of any Sanofi medication.” -- #3 on Fred Shapiro's list of notable (mostly political) 2018 quotations
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2018-12-11T14:12:39Z edw: I thought I'd read all the tweets, but that one somehow slipped through.
2018-12-11T14:14:32Z jcowan: sorry for irrelevancies, ww
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2018-12-11T15:07:49Z ecraven: jcowan: hm.. that seems non-ideal, then you'd have to wrap everything in with-new-method, or do I misunderstand something?
2018-12-11T15:09:40Z jcowan: Yes, with- was a bad choice; I don't mean a locally scoped generic function.
2018-12-11T15:09:56Z jcowan: I simply mean a nondestructive way to add a method, returning a new gf object.
2018-12-11T15:10:00Z ecraven: ah
2018-12-11T15:10:15Z ecraven: hm.. that would lead to a splintering of closely related gfs :-/
2018-12-11T15:10:25Z jcowan: In that way, you could import a gf from some module, enhance it, and use it or export it.
2018-12-11T15:10:31Z ecraven: my math library would have a slightly different + than your tensor library, etc.
2018-12-11T15:10:46Z ecraven: jcowan: yes, but what about between libraries?
2018-12-11T15:10:58Z ecraven: if I want some library to "see" my newly added method to some gf
2018-12-11T15:11:09Z ecraven: (of course, that way lies global state, again)
2018-12-11T15:11:45Z jcowan: Then you need to pass the gf to a method in the library, letting it manage the state.
2018-12-11T15:11:59Z jcowan: As things stand, every gf is a tiny database without even ACID properties.
2018-12-11T15:12:30Z ecraven: I'm thinking of things like adding a new numeric type, that I want to use in existing libraries that implement various mathematical calculations
2018-12-11T15:13:49Z jcowan: Yes, you can't threep it down their thrapples like you can in CL
2018-12-11T15:14:29Z jcowan: Libs in Scheme are basically autonomous: they choose which other libs to import and can create and maintain their own global state
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2018-12-11T15:48:45Z esper0s: hi everyone
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2018-12-11T15:49:13Z esper0s: iam currently going through the book SICP which uses the mit-scheme
2018-12-11T15:49:13Z esper0s: 	  lisp dialect. I want to find the best way to run mit-scheme through
2018-12-11T15:49:13Z esper0s: 	  emacs, would that be installing mit-scheme and then as suggested by
2018-12-11T15:49:13Z esper0s: 	  the manual the XSCHEME library?
2018-12-11T15:49:29Z esper0s: sorry was a yank
2018-12-11T15:52:30Z X-Scale: esper0s: have you tried coding and running your scheme programs inside edwin ?
2018-12-11T15:53:06Z esper0s: no , iam very new to lisp and all of its dialects and the general ecosystem
2018-12-11T15:53:23Z ecraven: mit-scheme --edit
2018-12-11T15:53:24Z esper0s: from what i understand there are several lisp interpreters you can run lisp at
2018-12-11T15:53:29Z ecraven: should drop you in an emacs-like editor
2018-12-11T15:53:40Z esper0s: *from
2018-12-11T15:54:26Z esper0s: right yes found edwin
2018-12-11T15:54:32Z esper0s: is propably best i do that for now
2018-12-11T15:54:35Z esper0s: thank you very much :)
2018-12-11T15:55:18Z X-Scale: Good luck and enjoy SICP and Scheme. It's a great learning experiment. :)
2018-12-11T15:56:44Z esper0s: on the journey to learn how to hack emacs and at the same time learn something about programming :D
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2018-12-11T16:02:04Z ecraven: jcowan: how would functions like `append' (that take rest arguments) work with predicate dispatch? just dispatch on the first argument only
2018-12-11T16:02:05Z ecraven: ?
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2018-12-11T16:04:31Z Riastradh: type classes
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2018-12-11T16:05:51Z ecraven: with dynamic dispatch?
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2018-12-11T16:06:22Z Riastradh: Type classes are dynamic dispatch!
2018-12-11T16:06:55Z ecraven: do you have the time and inclination to elaborate a bit on this?
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2018-12-11T16:31:41Z jcowan: I suppose the same thing that class-based dispatch does: nothing. Rest arguments simply don't participate in dispatch.
2018-12-11T16:31:59Z jcowan: In principle I suppose you could specify a predicate which the rest-arg-list as a whole must satisfy
2018-12-11T16:32:19Z ecraven: in principle, this also applies to +, -, ...
2018-12-11T16:32:28Z ecraven: there's quite a lot of functions taking rest arguments in r7rs :-/
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2018-12-11T16:34:04Z Riastradh: ecraven: Study up on Haskell!
2018-12-11T16:34:11Z ecraven: will do ;)
2018-12-11T16:34:22Z ecraven: last I looked into pure fp languages it was idris
2018-12-11T16:34:48Z Riastradh: `Pure FP' is an ideological red herring.
2018-12-11T16:35:15Z Riastradh: All it really means is that side effects are marked in the type system.
2018-12-11T16:35:53Z Riastradh: Want a side effect?  It must be revealed in the type.  Then if some side effect _not_ marked in the type you're guaranteed it can't happen.
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2018-12-11T18:34:06Z jcowan: ecraven: Indeed
2018-12-11T18:34:09Z jcowan: Riastradh: Well put
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2018-12-11T18:45:46Z gwatt: unsafePerformIO
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2018-12-11T19:29:00Z jcowan: actually writing is always safe provided the program can't read what it has written
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2018-12-11T21:11:48Z Riastradh: gwatt: ...is called unsafe for a reason -- it violates people's reasoning, and the above statement I made is why Haskellers knit their brows in consternation and begin making religious signs over their hearts when you utter the unutterable like that.
2018-12-11T21:13:04Z gwatt: Riastradh: ha. I just wanted to point out that even haskell has exceptions to the rules
2018-12-11T21:14:49Z Riastradh: Yes, well, even Aleister Crowley has exceptions to the whole of the law, but that doesn't mean you should meddle in the occult like that!
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2018-12-11T21:16:04Z gwatt: I myself never use unsafePerformIO
2018-12-11T21:16:33Z gwatt also hardly ever uses haskell
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2018-12-11T21:24:58Z Zipheir: Hahaha, Aleister Crowley. It's getting spooooky in here.
2018-12-11T21:26:38Z Zipheir: As long as we (seem) to live in a universe with state, nothing's ever going to be totally pure. It's just a matter of controlling impurity.
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2018-12-11T21:37:09Z Riastradh: Zipheir: Like I said earlier: that's an ideological red herring.  The point of Haskell is that side effects are indicated in the type system.  Type doesn't include side effects?  No side effects.
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2018-12-11T21:40:11Z Riastradh: or rather, not the point of `Haskell' but the point of the ideologically loaded word `pure'.
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2018-12-11T22:35:25Z jcowan: It's also why I insist on saying "pure and functional" and not just "functional"; the analogue of "GNU/Linux" (though I don't insist on that).
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2018-12-11T22:38:15Z Riastradh: `It' being `ideological motivation to mask practical consequences'?
2018-12-11T22:39:14Z Riastradh: I think the word `pure' is a counterproductive distraction here.  `Haskell is a functional language that reflects side effects in the type system.'
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2018-12-11T22:49:26Z Zipheir: "Strength through purity!" <-- hopefully not anyone's functional programming motto.
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2018-12-11T22:51:38Z Zipheir: But there is a need for a nice, concise way to characterize procedures that do not entail side-effects.
2018-12-11T22:52:04Z Zipheir: And 'pure' is quite concise.
2018-12-11T22:52:21Z Riastradh: It's ideologically loaded and sends people into philosophical contortions.
2018-12-11T22:53:02Z Riastradh: `Whoa, dude, that's pretty deep...like you can't have side effects ever because it's so pure?  I dunno if I could wrap my head around that.'  <-- Paraphrased from a conversation I had recently with someone about Haskell.
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2018-12-11T22:55:35Z Zipheir: 'Free from side effects'. Then the nit-pickers can recursively controverse on 'free', leading to 'Liberated from side-effects' and 'open semantics' factions.
2018-12-11T22:55:58Z Riastradh: It's not free from side effects -- that's my point.
2018-12-11T22:56:13Z Zipheir: Augh.
2018-12-11T22:57:10Z Zipheir: So how do you characterize a 'pure' procedure in Scheme or any other language whose type system doesn't indicate side effects?
2018-12-11T22:58:16Z Riastradh: As a limited technical adjective characterizing a specific function, sure, `pure function' is fine (though `pure function' and `effect-free function' may be different).  But not as a broad characterization of Haskell as a language altogether, where it is a counterproductive barrier that deters people from even thinking about Haskell.
2018-12-11T22:59:34Z Zipheir: Agreed.
2018-12-11T23:00:23Z Riastradh: (An effect-free function may be _affected_ by side effects of other functions, where a pure function is not.)
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2018-12-11T23:01:48Z Zipheir: Good point.
2018-12-11T23:10:13Z jcowan: It's hard to precisely pin down the meaning of "pure".  Is `cons` pure?
2018-12-11T23:11:54Z Riastradh: jcowan: No.
2018-12-11T23:12:06Z Riastradh: At least, not in the presence of set-car! and eq?.
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2018-12-11T23:12:42Z Riastradh: Nix set-car! and eq? (and set-cdr! and eqv? and anything else that can distinguish two different calls to cons), and it is.
2018-12-11T23:13:10Z jcowan: and yet it has effects on the store
2018-12-11T23:13:21Z jcowan: you can call + forever, but not cons
2018-12-11T23:14:52Z Riastradh: Of course, this designation -- as it appears in, e.g., GCC attributes, and Lisp compiler lore -- is formalized in Haskell another way: in the type system!  If you have `cons :: a -> a -> IO (a, a)', then yes, it may have side effects; if it's `cons :: a -> a -> (a, a)', then no, it does not (except the special case side effect of nontermination which is included in all types in Haskell).
2018-12-11T23:15:18Z Riastradh: jcowan: Don't think you can do 1 + (1 + (1 + ...)) forever.
2018-12-11T23:15:49Z jcowan: True
2018-12-11T23:16:07Z Riastradh: (or, 1 + 1, (1 + 1) + (1 + 1), ..., since that'll run out of memory before the sun runs out of juice unlike the right-leaning one)
2018-12-11T23:16:26Z jcowan: And I suppose in the absence of identity and mutability cons can just hash its arguments
2018-12-11T23:16:32Z jcowan: a la Goto
2018-12-11T23:17:35Z Riastradh: Sure.
2018-12-11T23:18:11Z Riastradh: Write your Scheme interpreter like <https://mumble.net/~campbell/tmp/Scheme.hs> and you'll see what side effects all the different parts can be assumed to have (or, can't be assumed to not have).
2018-12-11T23:18:56Z Riastradh: (Write it like that crappy `teach yourself Haskell in 48 hours by implementing Scheme badly', and you'll just do blindly flail around in the IO monad like a Java programmer.)
2018-12-11T23:19:06Z Riastradh: s/just do blindly/just blindly/1
2018-12-11T23:19:18Z Riastradh: (the `do' snuck in there from all the unnecessary IO monad in that tutorial)
2018-12-11T23:25:52Z marvin2: took a glance, and I don't see much (any?) IO there
2018-12-11T23:26:17Z Riastradh: In <https://mumble.net/~campbell/tmp/Scheme.hs>, yes, there's no IO.
2018-12-11T23:26:59Z Riastradh: I wrote it as a response to a Haskell tutorial called something like `teach yourself Haskell in 48 hours by implementing Scheme' which I thought did a lousy job of representing Scheme, and a lousy job of representing Haskell, because it just stuffed everything into the IO monad.
2018-12-11T23:27:17Z marvin2: I see, I missed your point.
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2018-12-11T23:38:50Z aeth: Riastradh: Isn't the correct example for calling + forever with "0"? (+ 1 0 0 0 0 0 ...)
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2018-12-11T23:39:58Z aeth: Otherwise you'll enter bignum territory eventually and cons unless you do something like mix negatives and positives
2018-12-11T23:40:52Z Riastradh: aeth: I think jcowan's point is that you'll run out of memory if you iterate cons 0 (cons 0 (cons 0 (... (cons 0 0)))), whereas you won't if you substitute + for cons there -- but my point was if you also substitute 1 for 0 then you'll eventually run out of memory too.
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2018-12-11T23:42:32Z aeth: Riastradh: Still seems a bit different. You'd run out of memory, yes, but at the reader stage and if you could get past that, then the compiler could in theory know to cut off the 0 tail afaik.
2018-12-11T23:43:22Z Riastradh: I don't think jcowan was making any point about syntax or smart compilers.
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2018-12-12T01:15:01Z jcowan: No, I wasn't thinking about any of that
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2018-12-12T02:55:44Z cobax: How does scheme achieve delimited continuations without SMLofNJ.Cont.isolate ? How can I call a function so that its continuation is the empty continuation in scheme with just call/cc?
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2018-12-12T02:57:18Z jcowan: http://okmij.org/ftp/continuations/implementations.html#delimcc-scheme
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2018-12-12T03:03:08Z cobax: jcowan: thanks. I've read many papers but I still do not understand fundamentally how one can delimit an undelimited continuation
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2018-12-12T03:08:24Z jcowan: I can't say I do either, but it doesn't trouble me
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2018-12-12T03:13:11Z cobax: jcowan: it is the ultimate magic trick
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2018-12-12T03:16:20Z cobax: the operators themselves are very simple, but the implementation is mind-bending. I also noticed that the implementation of "amb" uses the same trick (a reference cell that becomes a stack of continuations)
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2018-12-12T07:11:47Z cobax: oh, ok! the answer is, to execute a thunk in an empty continuation, you capture a continuation at the beginning of your program and use that, and that will be close enough to the bottom of the stack to be the empty continuation. very clever.
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2018-12-12T12:25:11Z ManDay: fascinating... all this stuff in r6rs but nothing to make-list or sequence-ish
2018-12-12T12:25:54Z ManDay: replace the i-th element in a list...
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2018-12-12T13:06:48Z ManDay: Other question: Say I have a list I want to alter tail-recursively. From how lists are nested pairs, the natural addition is *prepending* with (cons el old-list) thus reversing the list. Is there any expected performance gain by maintaining a "reverse" flag on the list, rather than resorting to the less-natural "append"?
2018-12-12T13:09:24Z ogamita: What is a reverse flag?
2018-12-12T13:10:50Z ventonegro: ManDay: https://www.cs.tufts.edu/~nr/cs257/archive/john-hughes/lists.pdf
2018-12-12T13:10:57Z ogamita: ManDay: on old hardware, it wasn't slower to use cons in the loop, and reverse! on the result, than to keep a reference to the last cons to setcdr! it.  On the contrary, using reverse!  was slightly better.   On modern hardware, if the list is bigger than some cache, it may be better to uset setcdr!.
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2018-12-12T13:15:18Z rain1: reverse is O(n), appending n times is O(n^2)
2018-12-12T13:16:11Z ManDay: i'm trying to stay away from anything containing a "!"
2018-12-12T13:16:54Z ogamita: rain1: appending n times wiht append can be O(n^3), since append must copy its rest argument list…
2018-12-12T13:17:01Z ManDay: it just occurred to me that this problem might be symtomatic of lists representing un-ordered sets only and possibly another (opaque) structure like a vector is better suited
2018-12-12T13:17:09Z ogamita: But if you append only one element, it's O(n^2), ok.
2018-12-12T13:17:45Z ogamita: Sometimes, you can also perform a reverse on the argument, instead of the result, so you get the result in the right order.
2018-12-12T13:17:49Z rain1: you can use delimited continuations to build a list forwards in a tail recursive way
2018-12-12T13:18:00Z rain1: without mutation
2018-12-12T13:18:08Z ogamita: And if you have several processing phases, having an even number of them allow you to maintain the order.
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2018-12-12T13:26:30Z rain1: it's a bit similar to using difference lists like (compose (lambda (xs) (cons x xs)) tail)
2018-12-12T13:29:18Z ManDay: ventonegro: it's a nice interpretation of lists but how does that help me?
2018-12-12T13:30:19Z ManDay: rain1: using continuations is just as bad as non-tail-recursiveness, so it's kinda pointless
2018-12-12T13:31:09Z ManDay: i could use the non-tail-recursive version right away (cons el (function (cdr list)))
2018-12-12T13:31:36Z ventonegro: ManDay: it's more efficient than appending at the end =)
2018-12-12T13:31:56Z ManDay: is it
2018-12-12T13:32:07Z ManDay: ventonegro: that paper you mean?
2018-12-12T13:32:17Z ventonegro: ManDay: yep, the paper
2018-12-12T13:33:26Z ManDay: ventonegro: i'm afraid I don't follow... interpreting list concatenations as function chaining is all good, until you want to iterate over the elements of the concated list
2018-12-12T13:33:35Z ManDay: you just shift the problem from one domain into the other
2018-12-12T13:33:55Z ManDay: you make the concatenation trivial (by definition) but now you have all the hassle in the iteration
2018-12-12T13:33:59Z ManDay: it doesn't really solve anything
2018-12-12T13:34:36Z ManDay: in the end, interpreting the problem in a certain way doesn't change the problem
2018-12-12T13:34:50Z ventonegro: If you need to iterate and then append again then I don't think it will help you
2018-12-12T13:34:58Z ManDay: indeed
2018-12-12T13:35:02Z ventonegro: (I am not reading all msgs)
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2018-12-12T14:06:39Z ManDay: So, practically, the answer is what? Resort to "!"s and set-cdr?
2018-12-12T14:06:44Z ManDay: Or reverse?
2018-12-12T14:06:54Z ManDay: Or use some opaque data type which decides the right thing for me?
2018-12-12T14:09:42Z ogamita: ManDay: if that was really critical to the performance of your application, you could indeed determine dynamically what's best to do.
2018-12-12T14:09:53Z ogamita: But honestly, on the current hardware…
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2018-12-12T14:10:10Z ManDay: heh, i need a slap back to reality, i guess
2018-12-12T14:10:59Z ogamita: 1- write it so it's clear to the human.  2- wait for user complaints about performance.  3- find a better algorithm. repeat.
2018-12-12T14:11:17Z ManDay: sound advice. thanks :)
2018-12-12T14:11:22Z ogamita: ManDay: Also, never forget the human for whom you're writing the code, is a raving psychopath.
2018-12-12T14:11:50Z ManDay: i incorporate "make code readable" into that iterative process
2018-12-12T14:12:11Z ManDay: my code is natively outright incomprehensible to anyone but me
2018-12-12T14:12:23Z ManDay: I fix that as needed
2018-12-12T14:13:09Z ogamita: It's included in step 1.  clear to the raven psychopath coworker => readable.
2018-12-12T14:13:39Z ManDay: sadly, i have no coworkers who read my code. generally, i agree
2018-12-12T14:14:04Z ManDay: i don't think anyone from the 1000+ coworkers in my company even knows what scheme is lol
2018-12-12T14:14:13Z ogamita: ManDay: the worst is when it's you, reading your code, next day, or next decade!
2018-12-12T14:14:32Z ogamita: What was this fool thinking! Have him fired right away!
2018-12-12T14:14:38Z ManDay: true. i'll improve it as needed before that may happen
2018-12-12T14:14:44Z ogamita: Oops, it was myself in the past…
2018-12-12T14:14:54Z ManDay: yeah, been there a couple of times
2018-12-12T14:19:55Z rain1: there's also the concept of tail call modulo cons
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2018-12-12T14:20:23Z rain1: where if the only thing stopping it being a tail call is cons, the compiler can produce code that's tail recursive and uses mutation even though you didn't write set-cdr!
2018-12-12T14:20:45Z rain1: ManDay>	rain1: using continuations is just as bad as non-tail-recursiveness, so it's kinda pointless
2018-12-12T14:20:50Z rain1: what do you mean by that? You may be mistaken
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2018-12-12T14:22:41Z ManDay: rain1: i mean that I can't imagine a way to employ continuations that is semantically superior to a non-tail-recursive construction of a list as by `(let map-f (alist thelist) (cons (f (car alist)) (map-f (cdr alist)))`
2018-12-12T14:22:49Z ManDay: if you disagree please make an example
2018-12-12T14:24:33Z rain1: you can do it tail recursively with generators
2018-12-12T14:24:52Z ManDay: yes, but there is no gain
2018-12-12T14:25:00Z ManDay: in terms of memory/stack or speed, that is
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2018-12-12T17:18:28Z dTal: are there any good python-like syntaxes for scheme?
2018-12-12T17:19:14Z dTal: I know about the various srfis but they seem to be a little light on actual runnable implementations
2018-12-12T17:19:15Z LeoNerd: I'd imagine not. One of the core problems with python-like syntax is its inability to express multi-statement blocks of code, as a single expression; whereas that's a central requirement in a lot of Scheme, the lambda as a building block
2018-12-12T17:19:47Z dTal: well, I'll loosen it to "more traditional" syntax then
2018-12-12T17:20:01Z LeoNerd: Python has a "one-way trapdoor" in that statements are built out of expressions, but expressions be made out of statements. The two are one and the same in Scheme
2018-12-12T17:20:08Z dTal: I don't actually care about the whitespace in this context, I'm just looking for something more concise
2018-12-12T17:20:15Z dTal: actually *any* alternate syntax would be interesting
2018-12-12T17:20:56Z LeoNerd: It's not so much about the whitespace, it's more about the lack of an "ending" marker for blocks of code
2018-12-12T17:21:30Z LeoNerd: Languages using something more traditional like pairs of { braces } find it relatively easy to invent a syntax for lambdas, if they don't already exist, because those handed pairs exist
2018-12-12T17:23:13Z wasamasa: how does SML solve it?
2018-12-12T17:25:34Z dTal: actually a brace language would be better
2018-12-12T17:25:47Z dTal: *syntax, not language
2018-12-12T17:27:38Z dTal: I think the srfis have the right idea - start from scheme and work backwards with a series of meaning-preserving transforms, but being less afraid of special casing certain things
2018-12-12T17:28:18Z dTal: like putting in var=val for assignment
2018-12-12T17:29:00Z DKordic thinks that dTal will be the first to complete the _definition and_ implementation of first M-Expressions.  
2018-12-12T17:29:05Z dTal: with the idea being to reduce the verbosity of the fully expanded s-expressions
2018-12-12T17:30:52Z dTal: DKordic: hah, I doubt it
2018-12-12T17:31:42Z LeoNerd: Mmmm
2018-12-12T17:32:06Z dTal: I just think that DSLs are worthwhile and can be made small enough to compose in a single syntax
2018-12-12T17:32:19Z dTal: like Python's list slicing syntax
2018-12-12T17:32:22Z LeoNerd: Inevitably all DSLs trade verbosity for generallity
2018-12-12T17:32:43Z dTal: yes but you don't have to use them, you allow the more verbose, more general syntax as *well*
2018-12-12T17:33:34Z LeoNerd: If it fits. Sometimes escaping out from one back to the other can be difficult
2018-12-12T17:33:55Z dTal: well, take the list slicing as an example
2018-12-12T17:33:56Z LeoNerd: E.g. consider the ways some of the dynamic languages do or don't support arbitrary expression interpolation inside quoted strings
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2018-12-12T17:34:13Z dTal: it's great if you want a single inclusive range of a list, which you very often do
2018-12-12T17:34:44Z dTal: it's not powerful enough to take eg every prime index out of the list, but that's fine because you don't have to squeeze all list indexing into the slicing syntax
2018-12-12T17:35:08Z dTal: it's small enough, and odd enough, to not tread on all the rest of the language
2018-12-12T17:35:34Z dTal: it's the kind of thing you could do as a single macro, if macros did that kind of thing
2018-12-12T17:37:40Z dTal: the closest thing I've seen to a system like that is how some CAS systems work
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2018-12-12T17:38:08Z dTal: which often are lisp based, and have a big list of prioritized syntax transformations
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2018-12-12T17:41:41Z dTal: for instance I really like the bar operator syntax for lexical binding, eg sqrt(x^2+y^2)|x=3,y=4 to mean (let ((x 3)(y 4)) (sqrt (+ (expt x 2) (expt y 2))))
2018-12-12T17:42:17Z dTal: I think I managed to trivially add it to Maxima once
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2018-12-12T17:52:56Z ecraven: jcowan: what is your opinion on define-method silently creating a generic function if none exists already with the given name?
2018-12-12T17:53:54Z gwatt: wouldn't it have to do that?
2018-12-12T17:54:20Z jcowan: I'm against it
2018-12-12T17:54:35Z ecraven: jcowan: it is purely for convenience, I'm a bit torn ;)
2018-12-12T17:54:42Z jcowan: I know CL does, but CL has a different notion of what counts as clean
2018-12-12T17:54:44Z ecraven: gwatt: no, it could error out "no such gf"
2018-12-12T17:54:49Z ecraven: dylan does too, I think
2018-12-12T17:55:11Z jcowan: I am also against, for the same reason, the ability to declare methods within a defgeneric
2018-12-12T17:55:18Z ecraven: from the prefix-dylan book: If the module variable variable-name is not already defined, it is first defined (as with define) and a generic function is created and stored in it.
2018-12-12T17:55:45Z ecraven: what about a "default method" without predicates / class specifiers, as a fallback / last next-method?
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2018-12-12T17:56:18Z jcowan: that's just a method whose arguments satisfy object?.
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2018-12-12T17:56:44Z jcowan: I will be adding object? and some total numeric predicates to the gf SRFI.
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2018-12-12T17:57:52Z jcowan: exact-number?, inexact-number?, etc. etc.
2018-12-12T18:00:42Z ecraven: object? is (constant-procedure #t)?
2018-12-12T18:00:53Z ecraven: MIT/GNU has that, not sure where it comes from ;)
2018-12-12T18:00:54Z gwatt: ecraven: What creates the generic function, if not define-method?
2018-12-12T18:01:00Z ecraven: gwatt: define-generic-function
2018-12-12T18:01:09Z ecraven: jcowan: do you have a draft of that srfi?
2018-12-12T18:01:18Z jcowan: no not yet
2018-12-12T18:01:36Z jcowan: I can push up its priority though
2018-12-12T18:01:53Z ecraven: I'd love to help with that, if my limited abilities are any use to you
2018-12-12T18:02:01Z jcowan: Sure.
2018-12-12T18:02:49Z ecraven is pondering this question: What would prefix-Dylan look like if it were based on predicate dispatch, not classes
2018-12-12T18:02:50Z jcowan: basic ideas are make-gf, add-method (no !), define-generic-function, define-method, subsumes?, subsumes!, and the total predicates above
2018-12-12T18:03:19Z ecraven: I have some of that implemented for chez, missing mostly subsumption
2018-12-12T18:03:44Z ecraven: though my add-method has a ! ;) but that's easy to rectify
2018-12-12T18:13:06Z gwatt: If gf-2 subsumes gf-1, does that mean all cases where gf-1 would execute, gf-2 executes instead?
2018-12-12T18:14:22Z ecraven: gwatt: it is related to the ordering of predicates
2018-12-12T18:14:39Z ecraven: if number? subsumes integer?, then all methods that specialise on integer? are called before those on number?
2018-12-12T18:14:54Z ecraven: it's a generalisation of inheritance
2018-12-12T18:15:05Z ecraven: jcowan: could you be persuaded to add an optional docstring to make-gf / define-generic-function?
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2018-12-12T18:45:19Z jcowan: I'd still rather have a general solution for all global identifiers
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2018-12-12T18:50:19Z gwatt: I think I have a working documentation system, but it requires r6rs.
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2018-12-12T19:45:17Z amz3: gwatt: how does it work?
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2018-12-12T19:48:06Z gwatt: amz3: It stores syntax objects and the docstring, using free-identifier=? to compare when requesting information on an identifier
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2018-12-12T19:50:09Z rain1: nice technique
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2018-12-12T19:52:46Z gwatt: https://gist.github.com/gwatt/0c2f36bb02d82a5902de0c2ec5ecd469
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2018-12-12T19:59:39Z ecraven: thanks
2018-12-12T20:09:29Z gwatt: Ah, I need to re-arrange some things. That definition runs afoul of definition and expression ordering...
2018-12-12T20:09:50Z ecraven: ah, I wish that restriction could be removed from chez :-/
2018-12-12T20:10:09Z gwatt: It's not
2018-12-12T20:10:35Z gwatt: It's not a huge problem, since you can do (define __ (begin a whole bunch of expressions)) but that's also kind of dumb
2018-12-12T20:10:43Z ecraven: I know it is r6rs, but it would be nice to somehow "disable" it for #!chezscheme mode
2018-12-12T20:11:06Z jcowan: that would be easy to protect behind a define-doc macro
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2018-12-12T20:21:09Z gwatt: ecraven: ok, updated. should now work inside of libraries
2018-12-12T20:21:50Z gwatt: keep in mind that chez lazily loads libraries, so you won't have access to the documentation info until after an exported identifier is referenced
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2018-12-13T07:02:26Z ecraven: jcowan: do you have any opinion on generalised setters? dylan had (setter car) but moved to car-setter later, both with syntax (set! (car (foo x)) 3)
2018-12-13T07:02:35Z ecraven: srfi-17 has (setter foo)
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2018-12-13T12:07:45Z jcowan: I generally favor SRFI 17.
2018-12-13T12:15:56Z ecraven: I've been pondering whether lenses could replace get/set combinations in general
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2018-12-13T12:57:52Z edw: Feel like I'm going to get a response akin to Dr Frankenstein at the Royal Society, but here's a preview of my Scheme atop an EDN reader: https://gist.github.com/edw/2c8fc4813be45885be9424c89fdc080f
2018-12-13T12:58:50Z edw: (Sample code is in the paste's second file.)
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2018-12-13T13:59:45Z edw: Repo: https://github.com/thunknyc/i7t
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2018-12-13T18:23:14Z Zipheir: ecraven++ for lenses. Too bad there isn't a popular portable Scheme implementation, AFAIK
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2018-12-13T19:21:57Z ecraven: Zipheir: I've played around a bit, but haven't found code I fully like yet
2018-12-13T19:22:21Z ecraven: I don't want separate get/set functions for lenses.. so to read, it should be enough to just apply the lenls
2018-12-13T19:22:34Z ecraven: to write, maybe some syntax, like (set! (lens ..) value) :P
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2018-12-13T21:42:22Z amz3: scheme for the win!
2018-12-13T21:42:24Z amz3: oops
2018-12-13T21:42:27Z amz3: wrong chan!
2018-12-13T21:42:34Z rain1: how dare you say that here
2018-12-13T21:44:23Z Zipheir: wat, are we only allowed to criticize Scheme here?
2018-12-13T21:46:00Z jcowan: "Of an opinon which is no longer doubted, the evidence ceases to be examined."  --GBS
2018-12-13T21:46:47Z Riastradh: opinon, is that the elementary particle making up arguments?
2018-12-13T21:48:36Z Zipheir: That opinon is good, but it needs a different spin.
2018-12-13T21:49:56Z amz3: Riastradh: +1
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2018-12-13T22:37:30Z LeoNerd: Idle thought: is there a Scheme implementation called "Pyramid Scheme"?  If not, why not?
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2018-12-13T22:46:23Z pjb: LeoNerd: There are more names than schemers.  Happy you, the name is free for your own scheme implementation!
2018-12-13T22:46:30Z wasamasa: there is
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2018-12-13T23:45:21Z jcowan: http://www.michaelburge.us/2017/11/28/write-your-next-ethereum-contract-in-pyramid-scheme.html
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2018-12-14T00:01:44Z aeth: It's great that it's for Ethereum, too
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2018-12-14T01:36:26Z jcowan: I realized that in designing range objects for Scheme, I can't adhere to the normal system of "lower bound inclusive, lower bound exclusive", because it doesn't work if the domain of the range is finite.
2018-12-14T01:37:20Z jcowan: e.g. if the domain is {Red, Yellow, Green} such that Red < Yellow < Green, you can't specify the range containing Yellow and Green by specifying an "Ultragreen" upper bound: there is no such object.
2018-12-14T01:37:40Z jcowan: so the bounds must be exclusive
2018-12-14T01:37:50Z jcowan: or rather inclusive
2018-12-14T01:38:53Z jcowan: So far so good.
2018-12-14T01:40:01Z jcowan: But does this mean that non-enumerable ranges (pure intervals) also should be only of the form [lower, upper], or is it important to support (lower, upper), [lower, upper), and [lower, upper), too?  And if so, how to discriminate by name between the two kinds of half-open intervals?
2018-12-14T01:40:19Z jcowan: There seems to be no standard terminology.
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2018-12-14T02:24:02Z Riastradh: What if the domain itself is purple?
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2018-12-14T02:32:39Z jcowan: What, is there a conspiracy nowadays to give me wiseass answers to straight questions?
2018-12-14T02:32:41Z aeth: jcowan: why not have a procedure that is essentially (foo x y #t #t) where the last two are inclusive-left? and inclusive-right? variables?
2018-12-14T02:33:15Z jcowan: Which reminds me, can you explain the restarter API you wrote up a while back?  I understand the descriptions of the procedures, but not the intended pattern of use.
2018-12-14T02:33:27Z aeth: jcowan: If you have something like my foo then your range (range x y) is just syntactic sugar for (foo x y #t #t) but if you want the other 3 you can do it with booleans
2018-12-14T02:34:02Z Riastradh: jcowan: How many years has it taken you to notice that?
2018-12-14T02:34:24Z Riastradh: jcowan: Re restarters: I have no idea, I gave up on the prospect of getting any useful engineering out of restarts ages ago.
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2018-12-14T02:37:41Z Riastradh: jcowan: Here's some code I wrote ages ago using them: https://mumble.net/~campbell/darcs/slime48/top.scm
2018-12-14T02:38:34Z Riastradh: jcowan: There's some other users of a similar API scattered throughout MIT Scheme.
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2018-12-14T03:01:24Z jcowan: aeth: That works fine for non-enumerable ranges, except that it's not exactly obvious whether #t means inclusive or exclusive.  (Boolean arguments are generally a bad idea.) But for enumerable ranges, they need to be inclusive for the reason I gave.
2018-12-14T03:01:53Z jcowan: Riastradh: I'll look at CLHS and see if it helps; also MIT
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2018-12-14T04:45:41Z aeth: jcowan: Boolean arguments make sense with keyword arguments. Does r7rs have those yet?
2018-12-14T04:47:29Z jcowan: No.  But there are three issues around keywords: parsing them (which can be done by a portable macro), making them self-quoting (which is not portable but fairly trivial, and hangs on the question of lexical syntax), and the possibility of providing Racket-keywords (which are different in both syntax and semantics).
2018-12-14T04:48:49Z aeth: I like how in CL they're basically just a plist tail, but apparently everyone else doesn't like that part of CL here.
2018-12-14T04:49:31Z jcowan: I wouldn't say "everyone"
2018-12-14T04:49:48Z jcowan: people have complex reactions, as in all matters of lexical syntax
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2018-12-14T04:54:46Z aeth: What's cool about the (near) equivalence (there's probably some edge cases) is that I can parse plists with destructuring-bind's &key in CL.
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2018-12-14T09:57:58Z edw: jcowan: What about using nil (er or #f or whatever) as a bound if there is no bound? All members of a set are (nil nil).
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2018-12-14T12:05:39Z DKordic: #pic
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2018-12-14T12:05:48Z DKordic [facepalm]
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2018-12-14T12:25:57Z Riastradh: jcowan: As for range objects, have you looked at what Haskell does for enumerables?
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2018-12-14T12:33:59Z jcowan: I have.  For non-numeric enumerable ranges, I'm going with (make-range comparator lower length ref)
2018-12-14T12:34:22Z jcowan: where ref is a function on lower and some n that returns the nth element of the range
2018-12-14T12:34:58Z jcowan: (of course this will work for numerics too, but there is a simplified constructor for them)
2018-12-14T12:35:21Z jcowan: But afaict Haskell doesn't deal with non-enumerable (indefinite) ranges at all
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2018-12-14T17:51:42Z edw: A usefully-if-not-complete Scheme-with-Clojure-syntax: <https://github.com/thunknyc/i7t>.
2018-12-14T17:51:52Z edw: s/usefully/useful/
2018-12-14T17:52:49Z rain1: good stuff! it looks like it's coming along well
2018-12-14T17:55:23Z edw: Thanks. I'm thinking about what else needs to be there to ease writing i7n-in-i7n.
2018-12-14T17:55:44Z edw: s/i7n/it7/. Too much i18n.
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2018-12-15T03:37:41Z rnmhdn: any thoughts on a 1:30 h interesting talk related to functional programming?
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2018-12-15T04:30:00Z cobax: does this have a name in the literature? (define (mystery f) (call/cc (lambda (k) (begin (f k) (exit)))))
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2018-12-15T16:02:00Z amz3: https://www.brinckerhoff.org/scheme2018/papers/Gleckler.pdf
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2018-12-15T17:14:51Z rain1: I think they need to address the problem of importing srfis
2018-12-15T17:15:05Z rain1: it's a great idea in theory to be able to program portable using a specification and various srfi libs
2018-12-15T17:15:12Z rain1: but in practice how you do actually import the srfi?
2018-12-15T17:15:15Z rain1: it's different for every scheme
2018-12-15T17:16:09Z amz3: package manager cross scheme?
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2018-12-15T17:18:57Z edw: Schemes will eventually get enough of their R7RS shit together that (import (srfi blah)) will eventually work everywhere?
2018-12-15T17:19:58Z edw: For all Chibi's, umm, eccentricities, it allows you to virtually live in the future, R7RS-wise.
2018-12-15T17:20:15Z amz3: eccetricities?
2018-12-15T17:20:27Z amz3: des chibi has ffi to c?
2018-12-15T17:22:35Z edw: amz3: Yes, it has completely fine C FFI. I wrote code to control the Raspi SenseHAT's LED array with it.
2018-12-15T17:23:09Z amz3: I will try to use chibi for the frontend of my app
2018-12-15T17:23:17Z edw: amz3: Chibi is sort of the anti-lisp in that it likes to be restarted often, especially when writing and debugging libraries.
2018-12-15T17:23:27Z amz3: today I have been reading about parsing http and guile does order the headers for some reason
2018-12-15T17:23:51Z amz3: edw: what do you mean by restart? startup time is low?
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2018-12-15T17:24:36Z amz3: actually HTTP protocol is straightforward
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2018-12-15T17:25:30Z edw: You are insane if you don't put your scheme web server behind lighttpd, nginx, apache, or whatever as reverse proxy to act as a hardened protocol validator.
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2018-12-15T17:26:30Z amz3: it depends...
2018-12-15T17:26:49Z amz3: but yeah, I use nginx
2018-12-15T17:26:58Z edw: That's a great karma-whoring answer for HN.
2018-12-15T17:26:59Z amz3: s/use/used/
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2018-12-15T17:27:12Z edw: Of course it depends.
2018-12-15T17:27:38Z amz3: I am not interested on the intricates of HTTP security
2018-12-15T17:27:58Z edw: OK, then you'd be insane not to.
2018-12-15T17:28:25Z amz3: heyhey
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2018-12-15T17:29:10Z amz3: I can not do everything so I need to ack that other people code is good willing and will not do harm, sadly I can not review myself all the code I use
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2018-12-15T17:29:46Z amz3: edw: what web server do you recommend?
2018-12-15T17:29:46Z edw: Right, then you are insane if you don't put your HTTP server behind a reverse proxy. There's nothing wrong with that.
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2018-12-15T17:30:06Z edw: I like Lighttpd because it's simple AF.
2018-12-15T17:30:13Z edw: But your needs may very.
2018-12-15T17:30:19Z edw: s/very/vary/
2018-12-15T17:30:25Z amz3: AF?
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2018-12-15T17:30:33Z edw: "as fuck"
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2018-12-15T17:32:48Z edw: And once you do that, there's no reason not to seriously consider FastCGI, which is even easier to parse than HTTP. People make stuff so complicated these days.
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2018-12-15T17:33:12Z amz3: Oh really FastCGI is different that raw http?
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2018-12-15T17:34:23Z edw: It sets a bunch of environment variables and then feeds you the body via stdin. You then pump the response out via stdout. Trés UNIXy.
2018-12-15T17:35:02Z edw: And if you're using a reverse proxy, something's already intermediating the request and response, so why not do it in the simplest possible way?
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2018-12-15T17:35:33Z amz3: what about proxypass?
2018-12-15T17:35:50Z amz3: that's what I use with nginx
2018-12-15T17:35:52Z edw: Whowhat?
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2018-12-15T17:35:57Z edw: Lemme google that
2018-12-15T17:36:14Z amz3: http://nginx.org/en/docs/http/ngx_http_proxy_module.html
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2018-12-15T17:37:13Z edw: Ah, proxypass is Apache's reverse proxy. Yeah, that would work. Apache can be set up lean.
2018-12-15T17:37:36Z amz3: This keeps stdout clean :)
2018-12-15T17:37:50Z edw: Nginx's claim to fame is to being a load-balancing HTTP (reverse) proxy.
2018-12-15T17:38:00Z amz3: and it's screen friendly
2018-12-15T17:38:08Z wasamasa: also, not being nearly as much of a pain to configure
2018-12-15T17:38:40Z amz3: well that remains an open question, I am not hardcore a I have not used apache since v1
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2018-12-15T17:38:51Z edw: How's it screen(1) friendly? You need to write an HTTP server!
2018-12-15T17:39:25Z amz3: edw: yes, but you can use stdout for logging thise cost only one more fd
2018-12-15T17:39:43Z edw: Lighttpd is the thirty-minute solution to your problems.
2018-12-15T17:40:04Z amz3: obviously nowdays logging is done in a database also, but in getting-started small scale it's handy
2018-12-15T17:40:23Z amz3: yes reading fastcgi would be a 2 minute scenario
2018-12-15T17:40:40Z edw: If you write a FastCGI app you can "just" spawn a TCP/IP REPL and connect that way. There's nothing magical about stdin/out/err.
2018-12-15T17:41:12Z edw: I could write you a FastCGI gateway in a random Scheme in an hour.
2018-12-15T17:41:27Z amz3: yes, that is you.
2018-12-15T17:41:30Z edw: I say this as someone who has written HTTP servers in Scheme(48):
2018-12-15T17:41:34Z amz3: I am reading fastcgi wiki
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2018-12-15T17:42:04Z edw: <https://github.com/edw/magic>
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2018-12-15T17:42:28Z equwal: That looks more like the lazy evaluation way of thinking to me.
2018-12-15T17:42:43Z edw: What's "that"?
2018-12-15T17:42:49Z amz3: https://fastcgi-archives.github.io/
2018-12-15T17:43:05Z equwal: that picture
2018-12-15T17:43:35Z amz3: no!
2018-12-15T17:43:38Z wasamasa: needs more jpeg
2018-12-15T17:43:42Z amz3: :)
2018-12-15T17:44:06Z rain1: edw>	Schemes will eventually get enough of their R7RS shit together that (import (srfi blah)) will eventually work everywhere?
2018-12-15T17:44:17Z rain1: is that (import (srfi 1)) ?
2018-12-15T17:44:26Z rain1: i think some schemes don't support numbers like that, it has to be a symbol
2018-12-15T17:44:41Z rain1: so there's a split where some do srfi 1 others do srfi srfi-1
2018-12-15T17:44:45Z rain1: others do :1
2018-12-15T17:45:07Z rain1: A cross scheme package manager isn't really a possibility until this is fixed
2018-12-15T17:45:43Z amz3: I like number module names :)
2018-12-15T17:45:46Z edw: rain1: I thought R7RS addressed this, that the standard is (import (srfi 1)).
2018-12-15T17:45:46Z rain1: we would need a common module system, but r7rs module system adoption is kind of low beacuse it forces you to indent your entire source file
2018-12-15T17:45:49Z amz3: equwal: RDD FTW
2018-12-15T17:46:14Z Zipheir: Hah, Lighttpd and simplicity in the same sentence. Maybe next to Apache, but...
2018-12-15T17:46:17Z rain1: pretty much all schemes and racket have module systems like 'define' rather than like 'let'
2018-12-15T17:46:26Z edw: rain1: Wha?! (define-library (foo bar)\n  (include "source.scm"))
2018-12-15T17:46:41Z equwal: what is rdd?
2018-12-15T17:47:18Z amz3: rain1: that's not that bad also emacs danneskjold custom-theme does a good job with rainbow delimiters
2018-12-15T17:47:20Z edw: I guess having spent a lot of time in S48 the idea of library definition files as distinct from source files (for non-trivial libs) doesn't seem like a big deal.
2018-12-15T17:47:31Z amz3: equwal: readme driven development
2018-12-15T17:47:47Z lose quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
2018-12-15T17:47:52Z amz3: rain1: I don't mind the extra 2 spaces at the beginning of each line
2018-12-15T17:47:57Z equwal: oh are you looking at my .emacs.d?
2018-12-15T17:48:02Z Zipheir: amz3: Does that actually have a Three-Letter Acronym now?
2018-12-15T17:48:20Z amz3: Zipheir: yes
2018-12-15T17:48:33Z equwal: That is a really common way to do it, because everything is so esoteric and breaks all the time. See the references at the bottom.
2018-12-15T17:50:23Z edw: Zipheir: So what's simple on your absolutist scale? Writing your own hardened HTTP(s) server?
2018-12-15T17:50:58Z amz3: edw: I can use your code btw
2018-12-15T17:51:11Z amz3 looking for a reference for rdd
2018-12-15T17:51:17Z edw: Umm, it's thirteen years old.
2018-12-15T17:51:28Z amz3 bump into a random discord.gg domain
2018-12-15T17:51:39Z amz3: not everybody knows about it :)
2018-12-15T17:52:02Z rain1: basically schemers are making life a lot harder for themselves than it needs to be
2018-12-15T17:52:53Z amz3: edw: it doesn't have a wiki page https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RDD
2018-12-15T17:53:07Z amz3: rain1: everything requires time
2018-12-15T17:53:09Z edw: rain1: Absolutely correct. Plain old CGI fer chrissakes would do for most applications. The world has gone mad. DHH's "You aren't Google, you don't need five nines" essay was basically ignored.
2018-12-15T17:53:40Z amz3: yes
2018-12-15T17:54:00Z amz3: I am reading on fastcgi, let me think about it
2018-12-15T17:54:46Z edw: amz3, why'd you direct that comment at me? Did I coin RDD?
2018-12-15T17:54:53Z rain1: well it isn't it going to happen if we just wai
2018-12-15T17:54:55Z rain1: t
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2018-12-15T17:54:56Z amz3: edw: sorry
2018-12-15T17:55:08Z amz3: rain1: #t
2018-12-15T17:55:08Z edw: No, I got excited for a second.
2018-12-15T17:55:13Z rain1: people would also need to agree on solving this problem
2018-12-15T17:55:49Z amz3: what does magic exactly do?
2018-12-15T17:56:37Z edw: It was a fuck-you to Arc.
2018-12-15T17:57:10Z amz3: seems like a wiki
2018-12-15T17:57:12Z edw: I don't believe in TDD. I believe in Spite-Driven Development. That's why I'm writing my own Clojure in Scheme.
2018-12-15T17:57:32Z amz3: yes I read HN
2018-12-15T17:58:11Z amz3: Counter argument scheme in clojure is also a thing somewhere... sometime...
2018-12-15T17:58:14Z edw: amz3: Oh, yeah, I wrote it for hosting my writings. But it would randomly crash. Because it was my own home-brew HTTP server. Because I shoulda just used FastCGI.
2018-12-15T17:58:36Z amz3: I am trying to find the wire format of fastcgi
2018-12-15T17:59:10Z edw: amz3: SchemeInClojure is insane. SchemeUsingClojure'sReader is awesome. (Plug: <https://github.com/thunknyc/i7t>.)
2018-12-15T17:59:53Z edw: amz3: Step one, read up on plain old CGI. FastCGI is best understood as an evolution of CGI.
2018-12-15T18:00:37Z amz3: thI prefer zombie https://github.com/amirouche/zombie
2018-12-15T18:00:50Z amz3: I prefer zombie https://github.com/amirouche/zombie
2018-12-15T18:00:54Z amz3: markdown is overrated
2018-12-15T18:01:20Z edw: Calling everything overrated is underrated.
2018-12-15T18:01:22Z amz3: so apparntly it's just struct over stdout
2018-12-15T18:01:23Z equwal: Use org mode
2018-12-15T18:01:38Z amz3: some kind of struct
2018-12-15T18:02:48Z edw: amz3: To a first order approximation, it's just a list of env name/value pairs. And then two newlines. And then the request body. And then you send the response code and the headers and body.
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2018-12-15T18:04:21Z edw: The nice thing is the requests aren't coming from any old rando on the interweb. It's a straightforward, normalized format that the server hands you.
2018-12-15T18:06:09Z edw: Again, it's not the be-all-end-all. It has its downsides. The only one I can think of off-hand is that it's a little more difficult to get a test server up and running because you need to run lighttpd/nginx/apache even on your laptop instead of using the toy server that comes batteries-included in whatever language/framework you're using.
2018-12-15T18:06:21Z amz3: select works on stdout fd?
2018-12-15T18:06:38Z amz3: or I don't need select?
2018-12-15T18:07:01Z edw: You need `read-line` at that's about it.
2018-12-15T18:07:11Z edw: s/at/and/
2018-12-15T18:07:48Z edw: and then you split on the first space. Or maybe it's a colon; it's been quite a while.
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2018-12-15T18:16:26Z amz3: yes i know http I read part of the standard ietf paper
2018-12-15T18:16:34Z amz3: maybe it's a continuation
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2018-12-15T18:18:32Z edw: I'm talking about FastCGI, not HTTP.
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2018-12-15T19:49:05Z mibmob: Can anyone help a noob? I have a list of the following form: (my-and (my-or #t #f) #f). I can't figure out how replace the symbols with the "and" and "or" functions respectively, such that the list evaluates.
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2018-12-15T19:50:35Z rain1: yes mibmob
2018-12-15T19:50:39Z amz3: ((apply or (cdr lst))
2018-12-15T19:50:46Z amz3: (apply or (cdr lst))
2018-12-15T19:50:49Z rain1: you can write a recursive function to evaluate it
2018-12-15T19:50:59Z rain1: (define (eval-boolean-exp exp)
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2018-12-15T19:51:09Z amz3: you will also need a recursive function
2018-12-15T19:51:14Z rain1: then use COND and have cases for:  BOOLEAN? and  PAIR?
2018-12-15T19:51:36Z amz3: yes
2018-12-15T19:52:50Z rain1: in the pair case, when you see (my-or . (#t #f)) you can map eval-boolean-exp on the CDR and then apply an "or" function (you will need to implement) to that
2018-12-15T19:53:11Z rain1: hope that gets you started, feel free to show your attempt and ask more questions
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2018-12-15T19:54:01Z mibmob: Okay, if I understand you correctly, then I already have a function that does that and works. But I was wondering if it is not possible to "replace" the symbols in the structure instead.
2018-12-15T19:54:37Z amz3: then you do what rain1 said and use 'list' instead of apply
2018-12-15T19:55:08Z mibmob: Hm, alright, I'll give it shot
2018-12-15T19:55:12Z rain1: what do you mean
2018-12-15T19:55:17Z rain1: show an example?
2018-12-15T19:55:21Z amz3: (list or (cdr lst)) where LST is '(my-or #f #t) will return `(,or #f #t)
2018-12-15T19:56:23Z amz3: if you don't call apply you will endup with something like `(,and (,or #t #f) #f)
2018-12-15T19:57:23Z amz3: instead of #t
2018-12-15T19:57:39Z amz3: I mean #f of course :D
2018-12-15T19:57:55Z amz3: off by one over boolean is difficult
2018-12-15T19:58:19Z mibmob: Is it alright to paste multiline snippets here?
2018-12-15T19:58:26Z rain1: no paste it in bpaste.net
2018-12-15T19:58:34Z mibmob: Alright
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2018-12-15T20:01:11Z mibmob: https://bpaste.net/show/f2d3737a05c4
2018-12-15T20:01:37Z mibmob: insert-truths is the function that does the replacement
2018-12-15T20:01:55Z rain1: this is your new attempt
2018-12-15T20:02:04Z rain1: but what about the previous code that actually worked?
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2018-12-15T20:03:30Z mibmob: Oh, I don't actually have it, but I've done that before, in other languages too. I was hoping I could do it this way in Lisp / Scheme.
2018-12-15T20:03:33Z rain1: oh ok
2018-12-15T20:03:49Z rain1: so the code in the paste is fine, but it is not the correct way to generalize
2018-12-15T20:03:49Z mibmob: It might not be possible, I just thought it would be.
2018-12-15T20:04:13Z rain1: if you want to generalized so that the eval function takes both (my-and (my-or #t #f) #f) & a mapping from my-and symbol to my-and function, my-or symbol to my-ord function
2018-12-15T20:04:23Z rain1: you will still use the same recrusive eval/apply structure
2018-12-15T20:04:39Z rain1: with deep map the lists will stay lists
2018-12-15T20:08:42Z mibmob: Alright
2018-12-15T20:09:12Z mibmob: Thanks for the help!
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2018-12-15T20:23:19Z amz3: use apply.
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2018-12-15T20:23:49Z wasamasa: use tab-complete
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2018-12-15T20:44:03Z jcowan: I really really want SchemeInCL
2018-12-15T20:44:27Z ecraven: jcowan: me too
2018-12-15T20:44:35Z jcowan: (not Pseudoscheme, though that's interesting too)
2018-12-15T20:44:37Z ecraven: mainly for proper and full slime :-/
2018-12-15T20:44:52Z jcowan: Mainly for SBCL and Quicklisp
2018-12-15T20:45:13Z jcowan: unfortunately the name "SICL" is taken
2018-12-15T20:45:44Z ecraven: socl?
2018-12-15T20:45:57Z ecraven: hehe, so you want CL interop too :D
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2018-12-15T21:33:37Z jcowan: Of course.
2018-12-15T21:34:36Z jcowan: of course it's fine if most CL object types are opaque to Scheme
2018-12-15T21:35:17Z jcowan: the trickest bit is nil, which corresponds to both () and #f (as well as being a symbol)
2018-12-15T21:36:48Z jcowan: but lists, symbols, numbers, vectors, strings should interoperate smoothly
2018-12-15T21:37:02Z jcowan: and ports/streams at least at a basic level
2018-12-15T21:39:01Z jcowan: and of course procedures/functions!
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2018-12-15T22:10:11Z jcowan: I think that proper tail calling can be assumed, given that CMUCL, SBCL, and CCL (and LispWorks and Allegro) provide it
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2018-12-15T22:18:52Z Riastradh: They do?  For all procedure calls?
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2018-12-16T00:58:37Z aeth: jcowan: I just need a good week or two to clean it up to get a presentable repo up
2018-12-16T00:58:50Z aeth: jcowan: hopefully I can do it sometime in December or January
2018-12-16T00:59:02Z aeth: jcowan: I do use a trampoline for tail calls at the moment, though.
2018-12-16T00:59:31Z aeth: Does ECL support proper tail calls?
2018-12-16T00:59:44Z aeth: I usually try to go for SBCL, CCL, and ECL support in CL projects.
2018-12-16T01:00:06Z aeth: All the annoying edge cases are in trying to support the rest, especially CLISP and ABCL
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2018-12-16T02:30:13Z jcowan: ecl suipports only tail calls to self, which of course is most of them (let loops etc.)
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2018-12-16T04:12:56Z Zipheir: g
2018-12-16T04:13:04Z Zipheir: Oops.
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2018-12-16T06:03:47Z jcowan: aeth: Scheme on the JVM and the CLR doesn't do proper tail recursion anyway, except for a few proof-of-concept interpreters
2018-12-16T06:03:56Z jcowan: So I wouldn't worry about ABCL
2018-12-16T06:05:52Z nisstyre: jcowan: clojure does trampolining?
2018-12-16T06:14:13Z jcowan: no, it does only *self* tail calling, and only if the programmer explicitly asks for it with the `recur` special form
2018-12-16T06:14:38Z jcowan: Mutual recursion will wind the stack up until it goes boom.
2018-12-16T06:16:11Z nisstyre: jcowan: yeah I just looked it up, it's weird
2018-12-16T06:16:23Z nisstyre: and you can't return functions
2018-12-16T06:17:34Z nisstyre: I wonder if https://github.com/Frege/frege does anything to do TCO automatically
2018-12-16T06:17:55Z jcowan: Well, that's the JVM for you: only conventional LIFO control
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2018-12-16T07:17:58Z ecraven: jcowan: how do you get around the lisp-1 / lisp-2 thing? just make set! and define set both the value and function properties?
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2018-12-16T07:20:30Z jcowan: I suppose, except that it's probably an error to set the symbol-function slot to a non-function, so you'd have to watch for that.  Also, you need to use the symbol-macro hack to support lexical global variables
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2018-12-16T07:33:10Z Zipheir: nisstyre: This https://clojure.org/guides/higher_order_functions seems to indicate that Clojure does allow you to return functions, but maybe you were talking about something else.
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2018-12-16T07:36:53Z jcowan: looks that way to me, yes
2018-12-16T07:39:18Z jcowan: I asked in #frege, but there are only two other people there
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2018-12-16T08:01:31Z aeth: ecraven: The other possibility is to have an explicit export if you want CL to access your functions, in which case there's no need to be smart at all.
2018-12-16T08:21:13Z aeth: Of course, they would still be available as lambdas if you knew how to get them. They might not be in the same format, though, if the implementation uses continuation-passing-style.
2018-12-16T08:21:25Z nisstyre: Zipheir: http://clojuredocs.org/clojure.core/trampoline
2018-12-16T08:21:42Z nisstyre: Note that if you want to return a fn as a
2018-12-16T08:21:45Z nisstyre: final value, you must wrap it in some data structure and unpack it
2018-12-16T08:21:46Z nisstyre: after trampoline returns
2018-12-16T08:21:49Z nisstyre: That's what I was talking about
2018-12-16T08:23:08Z nisstyre: I guess "recur" doesn't have that problem though
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2018-12-16T08:55:12Z edw: nisstyre: No, `(((fn [] (fn [a b] (+ a b)))) 1 41)` works just fine in Clojure. Firing up a REPL and typing works wonders.
2018-12-16T09:02:43Z edw: The TCO issue is real but not a big issue in real life. It was conceptually the hardest pill for me to swallow back in '10. Scheme turned me into a TCO absolutist.
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2018-12-16T14:19:11Z amz3: any tips on how to turn a port into a proper stream?
2018-12-16T14:23:10Z amz3: nvm
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2018-12-16T14:31:22Z jcowan: There are certain programs that are possible because Scheme guarantees proper tail calling, notably state machines that call (jump to) a new function instead of setting a state variable and dispatching on it.
2018-12-16T14:32:19Z jcowan: Such designs are not only clean conceptually, they allow passing ancillary information to the next state in a principled way rather than stuffed into variables that are global to the whole state machine
2018-12-16T14:35:18Z edw: jcowan: That's quite interesting. Clojure is typically used for soulless industrial computing applications. I wasn't making the claim that "TCO is not valuable in The Real World," but that "the absence of TCO is hardly noticeable when writing real-world Clojure code."
2018-12-16T14:37:09Z edw: I recently added a paragraph about TCO in my i7t readme.
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2018-12-16T15:02:29Z nisstyre: edw: I was talking about trampoline specifically, how would it know you're returning a thunk vs. returning a function?
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2018-12-16T15:06:15Z edw: I thought you were talking about the language, not `trampoline`.
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2018-12-16T15:32:38Z nisstyre: edw: yeah sorry for the confusing explanation
2018-12-16T15:32:51Z jackhill: jcowan: and I'm one of the other people in #frege and I don't know :/ There is also now a GHC fork, eta-lang (#eta-lang) that uses the GHC front-end and emits JVM bytecode. We could ask there as well?
2018-12-16T15:33:31Z nisstyre: jackhill: I was just curious myself because it's really its own language so there's no real requirement for TCO
2018-12-16T15:33:46Z nisstyre: plus I would guess you mostly use higher order functions anyway and those can be implemented with loops
2018-12-16T15:36:39Z ggole: Only in special cases
2018-12-16T15:39:23Z jackhill: nisstyre: ah, I see. The Frege compiler emits Java code which is then compiled with javac. I haven't looked at the Java code though, so I don't know how readable it is/if it would be an easy way to check.
2018-12-16T15:44:14Z jcowan: Ah, I didn't realize it emitted Java code rather than JVM bytecode
2018-12-16T15:44:56Z jcowan: If it's Java then even self tail calls are not practical, because the goto bytecode is not surfaced
2018-12-16T15:45:09Z jcowan: I suppose you could use while loops at the expensive of extremely contorted code
2018-12-16T15:45:49Z nisstyre: jcowan: you could do one pass to CPS it, and the another pass to somehow turn everything into assignments with loops maybe?
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2018-12-16T15:46:11Z nisstyre: it would be hard though
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2018-12-16T15:46:28Z jcowan: If you are going to CPS everything, then you might as well do the funky Chicken and use exceptions to bulk-trampoline
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2018-12-16T15:46:46Z jcowan: (exceptions are cheap in the JVM if you suppress formation of a backtrace)
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2018-12-16T15:47:58Z ggole: You can contify to get loops out of loop-like recursive functions
2018-12-16T15:48:02Z jcowan: you override the method fillInStackTrace in a subclass of Throwable, and Bob's your uncle
2018-12-16T15:48:08Z jcowan: ggole: true
2018-12-16T15:48:09Z ggole: Although I doubt most implementations do that.
2018-12-16T15:48:40Z jcowan: CPS + exceptions gets you proper tail calling
2018-12-16T15:49:03Z jcowan: the Spock compiler does that for JavaScript e.g.
2018-12-16T15:52:17Z ggole: Hmm. Now that I think about it, you probably want goto for mutual recursion anyway.
2018-12-16T15:53:00Z ggole: Otherwise wouldn't some kind of loop/switch rubbish be necessary?
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2018-12-16T15:54:47Z nisstyre: ggole: I feel like in order to make it work for every case there would be a lot of that crap
2018-12-16T15:56:54Z ggole: Well, contification is already restricting things to not cover every case, so you indeed need some fallback.
2018-12-16T15:57:44Z ggole: All contification gives you is nice loops for some common cases
2018-12-16T15:58:53Z ggole: And you can cover a few more cases if you have goto as well.
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2018-12-16T16:45:37Z jcowan: Exception throw and catch turns out to be equivalent to escape-only continuations, which is exactly what you need
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2018-12-16T17:22:25Z amz3: I had to buffer the output of the port to create a stream
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2018-12-16T17:49:39Z elderK: Hey all.
2018-12-16T17:50:34Z elderK: I was wondering if anyone could suggest a book to read after "Lisp in Small Pieces." I'm interested in learning how to implement a Scheme system. So far, without any suggestions as what to read next, I'm intending to work through the Rabbit compiler.
2018-12-16T17:50:37Z elderK: Suggestions would be appreciated :)
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2018-12-16T17:51:13Z wasamasa: I tried working through the compiler, but got too stuck on porting their scheme interpreter to elisp
2018-12-16T17:52:41Z elderK: I've been implementing the large majority of the things in the book - although not carbon-copy implementations. My approach is to try and build what I read about, without copying it verbatim - to force myself to really understand the choices CQ made.
2018-12-16T17:53:00Z elderK: Although, I'm finding the compilation part a little lacking. Which, is fair enough, it's a book about learning, like an intro.
2018-12-16T17:53:16Z elderK: I'm just not sure how to bridge LisP, to real code generation.
2018-12-16T17:53:48Z wasamasa: maybe you start with something more down to earth, like abdulaziz ghuloum's paper
2018-12-16T17:54:21Z elderK: I haven't yet read the C compiler part - I've just completed the byte-code compiler. And, it's been super useful. But, for example, even though a basic stack is used, environments are still objects created in the host Scheme system and GC'd.
2018-12-16T17:54:51Z elderK: wasamasa: Good idea. I forgot about that paper. Have you read it?
2018-12-16T17:54:53Z wasamasa: I assume that's just to maximize the learning parts
2018-12-16T17:55:16Z wasamasa: you could of course show how you'd solve heap allocation, but it wouldn't teach you nearly as much and would be far more boring
2018-12-16T17:55:33Z wasamasa: I've read it a few times, but never understood enough of it to do anything useful
2018-12-16T17:55:37Z elderK: I've tried to learn more about this stuff by reading many of the papers referenced in LiSP's bibliography, amongst others I've found on readscheme archive.
2018-12-16T17:56:05Z rain1: maybe you will enjoy reading my blog
2018-12-16T17:56:05Z elderK: wasamasa: How do you mean about show how I'd solve heap allocation, but wouldn't teach?
2018-12-16T17:56:21Z rain1: https://rain-1.github.io/scheme
2018-12-16T17:56:28Z wasamasa: > But, for example, even though a basic stack is used, environments are still objects created in the host Scheme system and GC'd.
2018-12-16T17:56:33Z wasamasa: I'm referencing that part
2018-12-16T17:56:48Z wasamasa: suppose they reworked the book to show how to not rely nearly as much on the host system
2018-12-16T17:56:54Z rain1: and if you don't mind something that's not scheme compiling with continuations was a good book
2018-12-16T17:56:57Z wasamasa: would it be worth the extra effort?
2018-12-16T17:57:10Z wasamasa: I suspect it wouldn't
2018-12-16T17:57:21Z elderK: I mean, heap allocation in and of itself I don't think is a major deal. Let's assume we aren't doing proper GC, for simplicity. The problem would be to know when such a "full environment capture" is necessary. A couple alternatives I've read about is creating a flat kind of closure, rather than a linked one like in LiSP. Another, is to lamba-lift.
2018-12-16T17:57:23Z wasamasa: the rabbit paper foregoes the boring parts, too
2018-12-16T17:57:26Z elderK: *lambda
2018-12-16T17:57:39Z wasamasa: it doesn't explain anything about readers or memory management
2018-12-16T17:57:54Z wasamasa: the focus is on showing off a (for that time) novel approach to compilation
2018-12-16T17:58:15Z elderK: I'm hoping Rabbit would help me understand more about compilation.
2018-12-16T17:58:22Z elderK: I mean, I'm very much a neophyte in this area.
2018-12-16T17:58:32Z elderK: rain1: I'll definitely take a peek at your site :)
2018-12-16T17:59:06Z elderK: It's like, I feel like I know enough now to write an interpreter, but it'd simply be a toy. My goal is to learn how to build something that is respectable, not the best, but not a toy either.
2018-12-16T17:59:31Z elderK: rain1: I read CwC many years ago but I admit, I didn't really understand much of it back then. Perhaps now, being older and hopefully wiser, I will :)
2018-12-16T17:59:41Z rain1: im sure you wil!
2018-12-16T18:01:54Z elderK: rain1: What books/resources did you find the most useful?
2018-12-16T18:02:10Z elderK: rain1: Your background would also be useful - it'd help me figure out how much distance I have to close, as it were :)
2018-12-16T18:02:12Z rain1: ok honest answer
2018-12-16T18:02:28Z rain1: reading -even technical books- is just for pleasure
2018-12-16T18:02:43Z rain1: the only thing that really helped me was trying things out and failing, a lot
2018-12-16T18:04:57Z ggole: "Essentials of compilation" is worth a look
2018-12-16T18:05:39Z elderK: rain1: Well, surely you must have like, read some compilery stuff - to get you up to speed, enough to start you know, exploring on your own?
2018-12-16T18:06:11Z elderK: ggole: Never heard of it :) I'll give it a look. Hopefully I can find it on libgen!
2018-12-16T18:06:28Z ggole: It's freely available, no need to look for scans
2018-12-16T18:06:43Z elderK: ggole: This one? https://jeapostrophe.github.io/courses/2017/spring/406/notes/book.pdf
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2018-12-16T18:07:00Z ggole: That looks about right.
2018-12-16T18:07:50Z Zaab1t quit (Quit: bye bye friends)
2018-12-16T18:08:31Z elderK: Sweetr
2018-12-16T18:08:38Z elderK: Man. Uni will return in a couple weeks.
2018-12-16T18:08:47Z elderK: I really wish I had more time to dedicate wholey to this stuff
2018-12-16T18:09:24Z wasamasa: hm, I have another ghuloum paper here than I remembered
2018-12-16T18:12:47Z elderK: I mean, if it makes things any simpler, I'm probably going to try and implement R4RS or a subset of that first.
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2018-12-16T18:13:05Z elderK: It doesn't have like, the values construct, for instance. Or a prescribed macro system.
2018-12-16T18:13:14Z elderK: So, I feel that would make a good first "target."
2018-12-16T18:13:26Z elderK: Experiences in achieving that, should allow me to move towards implementing R5.
2018-12-16T18:13:56Z elderK: That being said, I still have to learn how to build real programs with Scheme itself. So far, everything I've built is all in one file, almost like a script.
2018-12-16T18:14:11Z elderK: I'm not using for instance, r7's module features.
2018-12-16T18:16:47Z wasamasa: so there are two, An Incremental Approach to Compiler Construction and Compilers: Backend to Frontend And Back to Front Again
2018-12-16T18:17:53Z wasamasa: the first one kept mystifying me because it was light on details
2018-12-16T18:17:57Z wasamasa: the second one not so much
2018-12-16T18:18:24Z elderK: Both worth a whirl?
2018-12-16T18:18:54Z wasamasa: yes
2018-12-16T18:19:03Z wasamasa: they're clearly written, if a bit sparse on details
2018-12-16T18:19:41Z elderK: Are they large?
2018-12-16T18:19:47Z wasamasa: not at all
2018-12-16T18:19:53Z wasamasa: the code reminds me of maru
2018-12-16T18:20:37Z wasamasa: An Incremental Approach to Compiler Construction
2018-12-16T18:20:39Z wasamasa: err
2018-12-16T18:20:40Z elderK: I read through Maru - perhaps I didn't fully understand it, but the C-powered evaluator seemed to be a simple interpreter.
2018-12-16T18:20:43Z elderK: Albeit, in C
2018-12-16T18:20:48Z wasamasa: http://piumarta.com/software/maru/
2018-12-16T18:20:54Z wasamasa: there's more than that to it
2018-12-16T18:20:58Z elderK: I didn't read the scheme parts, they seemed more real.
2018-12-16T18:21:10Z elderK: :) I decided they were currently  beyond me. And, something to be returned to
2018-12-16T18:21:18Z elderK: So, Maru is currently stashed in /study/code
2018-12-16T18:21:19Z wasamasa: eval.l is the evaluator written in the lisp it interprets
2018-12-16T18:21:20Z elderK: :)
2018-12-16T18:21:30Z wasamasa: emit.l translates that lisp to asm
2018-12-16T18:21:49Z wasamasa: unfortunately it doesn't build here, I suspect it has only been tested on a mac
2018-12-16T18:22:09Z elderK: What platform are you on?
2018-12-16T18:22:12Z wasamasa: linux
2018-12-16T18:22:15Z elderK: Same here.
2018-12-16T18:22:35Z elderK: I'd fix it, but apparently it's like, the original, is pretty much abandoned.
2018-12-16T18:22:36Z wasamasa: compiling the assembly fails with a directive error, searching for it gives me apple docs
2018-12-16T18:22:50Z elderK: What directive?
2018-12-16T18:23:23Z wasamasa: eval.s:17511: Error: unknown pseudo-op: `.indirect_symbol'
2018-12-16T18:24:44Z wasamasa: oh snap, I forgot something
2018-12-16T18:24:50Z elderK: wasamasa: Did you like, properly set the platform?
2018-12-16T18:24:50Z wasamasa: yeah, I'm supposed to edit emit.l
2018-12-16T18:25:07Z wasamasa: with that it proceeds a bit further
2018-12-16T18:25:15Z wasamasa: /bin/sh: line 1: 19881 Segmentation fault      (core dumped) ./eval boot.l emit.l eval.l > eval2.s
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2018-12-16T18:27:39Z elderK: I might have to try it myself.
2018-12-16T18:27:44Z elderK: I didn't intend to run it - just study it :)
2018-12-16T18:27:49Z elderK: wasamasa: How much of it have you studied? :D
2018-12-16T18:27:57Z wasamasa: not much
2018-12-16T18:28:11Z wasamasa: I'd need to understand assembly a bit better first
2018-12-16T18:28:19Z wasamasa: and debugging with gdb
2018-12-16T18:29:03Z elderK: Is the assembly IA32 / x86_32?
2018-12-16T18:29:10Z elderK: I never really learned AMD64 :)
2018-12-16T18:29:14Z wasamasa: possibly!
2018-12-16T18:29:20Z elderK: I imagine it is for the most part similar.
2018-12-16T18:29:31Z elderK: :P If you see %rax or something like that, it's AMD64 :p
2018-12-16T18:29:38Z wasamasa: yeah, no such thing here
2018-12-16T18:29:47Z elderK: Probably IA32.
2018-12-16T18:29:50Z elderK: good :P
2018-12-16T18:30:07Z wasamasa: I learned it a bit for playing with crackmes, but forgot most of it over time
2018-12-16T18:30:28Z wasamasa: now I have difficulties figuring out anything without helpful explanations displayed by r2
2018-12-16T18:30:39Z wasamasa: or its pseudo-C view
2018-12-16T18:30:42Z elderK: I wonder how useful "learning-by-imitation" is here. Like, let's say I read and understand Maru in its entirity. That teaches me how Maru does it. I'd hope that would allow me to springboard, as it were.
2018-12-16T18:31:11Z elderK: wasamasa: My only real experience writing assembly is the stuff I've written for bootloaders.
2018-12-16T18:31:25Z elderK: And like, stuff that /had/ to be written in assembly, like interrupt handlers and TLB invalidation and stuff.
2018-12-16T18:31:59Z wasamasa: > machine  Intel 80386
2018-12-16T18:32:41Z elderK: Sweet, IA32.
2018-12-16T18:32:49Z elderK: :) Perhaps we could fix Maru 'old'
2018-12-16T18:32:52Z elderK: :)
2018-12-16T18:33:03Z wasamasa: possibly
2018-12-16T18:33:04Z jcowan: I never learned any Inteloid processor's assembler, or even the Vax
2018-12-16T18:33:20Z wasamasa: could be as simple as just increasing the stack space in hope it doesn't do anything pathological
2018-12-16T18:33:22Z jcowan: I decided that the PDP-11 was fine, but 256 opcodes were too many for me, and never used assembler again
2018-12-16T18:33:30Z elderK: jcowan: :P I wouldn't say I'm expert at it. I can write in it if I absolutely have to, but what I write is probably super-not-optimal.
2018-12-16T18:33:30Z wasamasa: I doubt it though
2018-12-16T18:34:14Z elderK: wasamasa: Depends on what's causing the SEGV.
2018-12-16T18:34:33Z wasamasa: evaluating boot.l
2018-12-16T18:34:36Z wasamasa: everything else is fine
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2018-12-16T18:34:45Z wasamasa: I'll go back to the tried and true debugging method for simpletons
2018-12-16T18:34:51Z elderK: Eh? :P
2018-12-16T18:34:59Z wasamasa: (print "still alive\n")
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2018-12-16T18:35:29Z elderK: wasamasa: You might find cgdb useful.
2018-12-16T18:35:34Z elderK: strace too
2018-12-16T18:36:03Z wasamasa: ouch, that doesn't work
2018-12-16T18:36:15Z elderK: jcowan: :) Do you have any further advice for like, Lisp implementation-learningness?
2018-12-16T18:36:17Z wasamasa: or does it
2018-12-16T18:36:27Z wasamasa: it doesn't work when used in the bootstrap process
2018-12-16T18:36:38Z elderK: wasamasa: What doesn't? cgdb or strace?
2018-12-16T18:37:21Z wasamasa: print
2018-12-16T18:39:11Z elderK: :P
2018-12-16T18:39:20Z elderK: Once I've filled out some forms, I might take a look :)
2018-12-16T18:39:25Z elderK: Are you running AMD64?
2018-12-16T18:39:30Z elderK: Like, are you on a 64bit Linux?
2018-12-16T18:39:36Z wasamasa: it dies after defining define-form
2018-12-16T18:39:37Z elderK: And have necessary like, multilib stuff?
2018-12-16T18:39:40Z wasamasa: sure
2018-12-16T18:39:46Z wasamasa: I run wine just fine
2018-12-16T18:39:49Z elderK: Sweet.
2018-12-16T18:40:48Z wasamasa: (define define-form (form (lambda (name args . body) `(define ,name (form (lambda ,args ,@body))))))
2018-12-16T18:44:48Z elderK: I can do ./boot-eval *.l just fine
2018-12-16T18:44:58Z elderK: I'll be testing the assembled one shortly.
2018-12-16T18:47:31Z wasamasa: maybe it's the backquote being wonky
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2018-12-16T19:00:54Z elderK: Wow, enable debugging. Epic slow :P
2018-12-16T19:00:57Z elderK: Like, holy crap slow
2018-12-16T19:00:59Z elderK: :P
2018-12-16T19:02:52Z elderK: For me it dies at define list
2018-12-16T19:06:27Z elderK: Ugh, no debugging info
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2018-12-16T19:19:01Z elderK: rain1: You know the hoist pass? Where did you learn about that?
2018-12-16T19:19:13Z rain1: i invented it
2018-12-16T19:19:35Z elderK: It seems very similar to lambda lifting
2018-12-16T19:19:41Z elderK: From what I've read (a long time ago)
2018-12-16T19:20:23Z rain1: it combines closure conversion and variable storage analysis
2018-12-16T19:22:30Z elderK: You might find this interesting: http://matt.might.net/articles/compiling-scheme-to-c/
2018-12-16T19:28:54Z Zipheir: The compiler in that article is definitely worth reading through fully
2018-12-16T19:29:06Z Zipheir: It doesn't do TCO, though :(
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2018-12-16T19:34:28Z elderK: Hey Zipheir. Thanks for joining in :)
2018-12-16T19:34:32Z elderK: :D Do YOU have any further advice? :)
2018-12-16T19:34:57Z elderK: Also, I was wondering if more classical texts, like the Dragon book, is of any use considering I want to build a Scheme compiler.
2018-12-16T19:38:02Z elderK: I wish I understood his "type" denotations
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2018-12-16T19:38:50Z Zipheir: The version of the Dragon Book that I read is the original "pink knight" edition, and I recall at least half of the book being about parsing.
2018-12-16T19:38:54Z Riastradh: Various people use the terms `closure analysis', `closure conversion', `closure hoisting', and `lambda lifting' with subtle distinctions that I'm not sure more than two people agree on.
2018-12-16T19:39:10Z elderK: Hey Riastradh!
2018-12-16T19:39:25Z Zipheir: elderK: I hear a lot of good things about Appel's Compiling With Continuations.
2018-12-16T19:39:28Z elderK: Zipheir: I have a later edition. I've been trying to get my hands on a copy of the original online but it's hard going.
2018-12-16T19:39:41Z elderK: Zipheir: I own that book :) That's something others have suggested. I need to reread it.
2018-12-16T19:40:05Z elderK: Problem is, I don't understand ML.
2018-12-16T19:40:10Z elderK: Suppose this time around I'll read it with a reference handy :)
2018-12-16T19:40:19Z Riastradh: In MIT Scheme's compiler there's a file for `closure analysis', and a file for `environment optimization', and a big comment saying that the names are misleading and `environment optimization' happens in both files (and the closure analysis done here is hard to prove right).
2018-12-16T19:40:29Z Zipheir: elderK: In that case, I'm going to listen to _your_ suggestions, since you're clearly further along in compiler wizardry than I.
2018-12-16T19:40:51Z Riastradh: elderK: Worth learning to read ML.  Not far from Haskell and it's worth learning to read and think in Haskell too.
2018-12-16T19:42:07Z elderK: Zipheir: MY suggestions? I know sweet FA. I read CWC a long time ago, and understood very little. Same with LiSP - although I've been rereading and working through that again.
2018-12-16T19:42:10Z elderK: I'll try CwC next :)
2018-12-16T19:42:16Z elderK: And I will peruse Matt Might's page too
2018-12-16T19:42:19Z elderK: Looks to be a gold mien :)
2018-12-16T19:42:22Z elderK: *mine
2018-12-16T19:42:39Z elderK: Also: Reading things and understanding stuff from books does not mean I know how to apply said things :P
2018-12-16T19:43:37Z Zipheir: Indeed.
2018-12-16T19:44:25Z muelleme quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2018-12-16T19:45:08Z elderK: Zipheir: :P I have a zany goal, you see.
2018-12-16T19:45:14Z Zipheir: Matt Might's compiling-to-c article (and compiler) was sufficient to demonstrate to me that "C is a portable assembler" is bogus folklore. :)
2018-12-16T19:45:38Z elderK: Heh.
2018-12-16T19:45:43Z edw: Is anyone working on getting R7RS libraries working on MIT Scheme?
2018-12-16T19:47:43Z Riastradh: edw: Chris added a pile of code for them but I haven't looked at it and I don't know what state it's in.
2018-12-16T19:48:49Z edw: Riastradh: It's in the repo?
2018-12-16T19:53:34Z edw: Answer: #t. <http://git.savannah.gnu.org/cgit/mit-scheme.git/commit/?id=2e96b4d03b2c50c86ce815877ae9e0f0fb98e501>
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2018-12-16T20:02:10Z elderK: Riastradh: How does ML compare with Scheme? It always looked like an interesting language but for me, Scheme and CL won out because of the built-in metaprogramming facilities.
2018-12-16T20:02:15Z elderK: Like, macros and stuff.
2018-12-16T20:02:32Z wasamasa: ML is the scheme of statically typed functional programming languages
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2018-12-16T20:02:43Z wasamasa: standardizes just enough to allow you building interpreters/compilers
2018-12-16T20:02:52Z wasamasa: standard ML that is
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2018-12-16T20:09:03Z elderK: I wonder how much like, you'd miss define-syntax and friends.
2018-12-16T20:09:32Z elderK: I used to use define-syntax and syntax-rules quite a lot, years ago. But not so much nowadays. In CL, I use defmacro a ton.
2018-12-16T20:10:32Z wasamasa: in SML, you use pattern matching a ton
2018-12-16T20:11:24Z elderK: Racket kind of seems like Scheme and ML had a secret love child :D
2018-12-16T20:11:50Z aeth: Modern language design is all about copying ML
2018-12-16T20:12:27Z muelleme quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2018-12-16T20:12:56Z jcowan: In computer science, we all stand on each other's feet
2018-12-16T20:17:33Z alyptik is now known as because
2018-12-16T20:17:44Z aeth: There are just two real questions: (1) what's the next language that everyone's going to copy and (2) what does ML copy if everyone copies ML?
2018-12-16T20:19:52Z Zipheir: (1) is only a real question if you want to make a killing pushing said next language on fad-driven corporate types.
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2018-12-16T20:20:05Z wasamasa: the next big thing is going to be less than general purpose languages with their weird DSLs and ML is dead
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2018-12-16T20:21:37Z amz3: the next big thing is scheme :>
2018-12-16T20:21:43Z aeth: Zipheir: But that's medium sized money. What if I want big money? *Big* money is writing a JavaScript framework that claims to implement those features in JS.
2018-12-16T20:22:02Z Zipheir: aeth: Indeed.
2018-12-16T20:22:19Z Zipheir: amz3: First we need to exorcise the Curse of Lisp!
2018-12-16T20:22:26Z amz3: what is it?
2018-12-16T20:22:34Z amz3 prepare potions of parens
2018-12-16T20:22:41Z amz3: +s
2018-12-16T20:23:22Z Zipheir: (Incomplete and undefined, identifers undefined--the Curse of LISP! The Curse of LISP!)
2018-12-16T20:24:27Z amz3: already read http://www.winestockwebdesign.com/Essays/Lisp_Curse.html
2018-12-16T20:24:48Z Zipheir: Err, 'incomplete and unrefined'
2018-12-16T20:24:53Z Zipheir: Exactly.
2018-12-16T20:25:02Z amz3: one must create applications, not yet another scheme complier
2018-12-16T20:25:58Z amz3: there is only one application of widespread use using a lisp it's emac
2018-12-16T20:25:59Z amz3: there is only one application of widespread use using a lisp it's emacs
2018-12-16T20:26:12Z amz3: so we need to build simple replacement for everything else
2018-12-16T20:26:20Z amz3: (and replace emacs at some point)
2018-12-16T20:26:28Z pjb: But since emacs does already everything…
2018-12-16T20:26:33Z amz3: nah
2018-12-16T20:27:35Z amz3: I mean emacs is not a web browser, it's not a wiki, it's not a search centralized engine, it's not a p2p network, it's a publishing platform etc...
2018-12-16T20:27:58Z amz3: we must pick low hanging fruit app idea and build them
2018-12-16T20:28:07Z amz3: there is already a wiki
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2018-12-16T20:28:17Z amz3: there is an OS aka. guix
2018-12-16T20:28:24Z amz3: let's build other stuff
2018-12-16T20:28:30Z pjb: M-x w3m-browse-url RET https://www.emacswiki.org/emacs/EmacsWikiMode RET
2018-12-16T20:28:38Z pjb: org-mode
2018-12-16T20:28:44Z amz3: org-mode is kult
2018-12-16T20:28:48Z amz3: org-mode is +a+ kult
2018-12-16T20:29:01Z Zipheir: amz3: "Replace all the software in the world" sounds like a recipe for failure.
2018-12-16T20:29:03Z amz3: also emacs is not written in scheme
2018-12-16T20:29:35Z amz3: Zipheir: I can tell, I tried and failed, so far, so far so I will focus on a search engine or data catalog not sure yet.
2018-12-16T20:30:28Z amz3: it's not the work of a single person
2018-12-16T20:30:30Z amz3: also
2018-12-16T20:30:58Z amz3: we can together agree to use chez (!) to build a green (because chez is efficient) replacement for many apps
2018-12-16T20:31:31Z pjb: amz3: yes. You can also rewrite all the third-party emacs code into mit-scheme for edwin.
2018-12-16T20:32:06Z ecraven: pjb: I've done a small irc mode years ago, it wasn't too bad :-)
2018-12-16T20:32:12Z amz3: pjb: that is possible. vscode, sublime etc... are all in widespread use and don't have as much third-party or built-in as emacs
2018-12-16T20:32:21Z ecraven: but until it gains unicode support and colours, it just doesn't cut it for me :-/
2018-12-16T20:32:28Z pjb: They're just editors.
2018-12-16T20:32:42Z edw: Hahahaha.
2018-12-16T20:32:44Z ecraven: emacs is a lisp machine, that is something completely different than an editor
2018-12-16T20:32:45Z pjb: Emacs has several editors.  eg. evil.
2018-12-16T20:33:08Z Zipheir: amz3: I mean, this kind of thinking reminds me of the Linux rhetoric of the 90s--"we need everything to run Linux!" so people reimplement 5 billion terrible Windows programs terribly.
2018-12-16T20:33:14Z edw: They can't even read mail!
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2018-12-16T20:33:20Z wasamasa: I feel reminded of rails
2018-12-16T20:33:36Z wasamasa: it's not even close to what good ruby usage looks like and the places I've seen it used at aren't happy with ruby at all
2018-12-16T20:33:47Z pjb: emacs can run on bare linux kernel too. https://www.informatimago.com/linux/emacs-on-user-mode-linux.html
2018-12-16T20:34:05Z amz3: Zipheir: of course, 0.1 version will be poor and not enough featured but with times and more eyes it will improve
2018-12-16T20:34:19Z wasamasa: the slope of enlightenment is brutal
2018-12-16T20:34:28Z Zipheir: *sigh*
2018-12-16T20:34:34Z pjb: And it's very usable, M-x eshell provides the shell, M-x tetris provides leisure, etc.
2018-12-16T20:34:42Z amz3:  /ignore pjb
2018-12-16T20:35:07Z wasamasa: more eyes you say: https://github.com/sharplispers
2018-12-16T20:35:34Z amz3: are we discussing how scheme can grow bigger and how emacs is do-all-the-things sometime poorly.
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2018-12-16T20:36:37Z amz3: wasamasa: there is not as big group of schemers around the same purpose except maybe rnrs and srfi
2018-12-16T20:36:43Z amz3: and guix
2018-12-16T20:36:59Z wasamasa: I'm just pointing out that more eyes aren't necessarily achieving the desired effect
2018-12-16T20:37:14Z amz3: so we need a hero !
2018-12-16T20:39:13Z amz3 looks around
2018-12-16T20:39:15Z Zipheir: Ask RMS, he loves being the hero and has considerable LISP chops.
2018-12-16T20:39:29Z amz3: meh
2018-12-16T20:39:31Z amz3: no
2018-12-16T20:39:55Z amz3: also he doesn't code anymore, IIUC
2018-12-16T20:40:17Z ecraven: some people were working on making edwin "portable". duncanm and friends, I think
2018-12-16T20:40:42Z amz3: portable accross scheme?
2018-12-16T20:40:46Z amz3: or accross OS?
2018-12-16T20:40:54Z ecraven: it already is portable across OSes
2018-12-16T20:41:12Z ecraven: I think they target kawa, possibly as r7rs large as possible
2018-12-16T20:41:22Z Riastradh: elderK: Why don't you try ML and find out?
2018-12-16T20:41:58Z edw: ecraven: Funny you say that './Setup.h' has been unresponsive on my laptop for the last hour.
2018-12-16T20:42:46Z Zipheir: amz3: If any of your Scheme World Domination projects need code, I'd be happy to contribute if I can. :)
2018-12-16T20:43:02Z amz3: OK! I will be the hero.
2018-12-16T20:43:14Z elderK: Riastradh: Probably the best way :)
2018-12-16T20:43:35Z amz3: Zipheir: at which point you will consider looking at my code?
2018-12-16T20:43:45Z amz3: Zipheir: worth the time to spend?
2018-12-16T20:43:57Z Zipheir: amz3: Of course.
2018-12-16T20:44:28Z amz3: I will let you know when I enough happy and a first version is published online
2018-12-16T20:45:10Z amz3: I mean that has a web frontend.
2018-12-16T20:45:19Z pjb: Create a startup, develop a product in scheme, IPO for $1T, finance new scheme development projects.
2018-12-16T20:45:23Z amz3: Anyway, last time I tried, not body promised to use, and none did.
2018-12-16T20:45:44Z pjb: Alternatively, build spaceship, leave this asylum-planet.
2018-12-16T20:45:53Z amz3: already tried that.
2018-12-16T20:45:57Z ecraven: if you really want an emacs-like in Scheme, I'd suggest trying to improve edwin ;)
2018-12-16T20:46:02Z pjb: 1+
2018-12-16T20:46:06Z elderK: Night all :)
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2018-12-16T20:46:17Z Zipheir: o/ elderK
2018-12-16T20:47:17Z amz3: I will look later at edwin
2018-12-16T20:47:32Z amz3: the thing is I don't want to have lot of C code
2018-12-16T20:47:39Z Zipheir: amz3: Just make all your development public. Don't be a cathedral, be a bazaar.
2018-12-16T20:47:44Z amz3: does edwin rely on ncurses?
2018-12-16T20:47:47Z ecraven: edwin has close to 0 C code
2018-12-16T20:47:57Z ecraven: no, it relies on the built-in terminal and xterm abstractions of mit scheme
2018-12-16T20:48:00Z amz3: Zipheir: all my code is public
2018-12-16T20:48:09Z ecraven: which is a good thing, imho, you can just port those abstractions to other schemes and have the editor work, in theory
2018-12-16T20:48:44Z amz3: I will chopchop that, that's the part that is painful in termbox somewhat
2018-12-16T20:48:44Z aeth: pjb: Fedora actually removes "M-x tetris" from its Emacs because its lawyers think it violates the trademark
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2018-12-16T20:49:08Z Zipheir: Red Hat being its usual cowardly self.
2018-12-16T20:49:11Z aeth: Emacs is a pretty bad Lisp machine, though. Today's Emacs wouldn't be impressive past 1995 or so.
2018-12-16T20:49:30Z ecraven: aeth: is there a better one available? :-/
2018-12-16T20:49:32Z aeth: Maybe M-x package-list-packages would be impressive, though
2018-12-16T20:50:12Z aeth: ecraven: The problem is that everyone uses Emacs, so there's no demand for a better Lisp editor.
2018-12-16T20:50:30Z Zipheir: 'Good enough' is the worst enemy of 'better'.
2018-12-16T20:50:35Z ecraven: aeth: it's not only about a lisp editor, it's about the entire system... I've played with open genera, it is just amazing imho
2018-12-16T20:50:37Z aeth: Racket has one, but it's more aimed at beginners and I'm sure at least half of the Racketeers use Emacs
2018-12-16T20:50:42Z Zipheir: Especially when it's a program that does everything.
2018-12-16T20:50:55Z ecraven: the lisp editor is a very small part of what I want... the listener is a big thing, for example
2018-12-16T20:51:04Z ecraven: slime is nice, but full presentations are just something different
2018-12-16T20:51:07Z ecraven: clim might get there some day
2018-12-16T20:51:11Z ecraven: mcclim, I mean
2018-12-16T20:51:37Z aeth: Zipheir: 90% of what I do is SLIME and magit, though. It's much easier to implement an Emacs competitor if you're only interested in supporting Lisp languages and don't have to worry about IRC or org-mode or whatever.
2018-12-16T20:51:58Z aeth: Or eshell etc.
2018-12-16T20:52:33Z ecraven: ah, but that is the entire point of my using emacs for everything, I can actually use it for almost *everything*. I don't *want* 15 different programs with different bindings
2018-12-16T20:53:20Z Zipheir: aeth: Exactly. It's come up before, but it's impossible to try to duplicate 40 years of Elisp hackery in a new program.
2018-12-16T20:53:35Z aeth: Zipheir: 40 years of technical debt
2018-12-16T20:54:03Z aeth: Zipheir: You could make a clone of everything important in Emacs in 5 years, probably. And it would probably be faster, even if it used 0 C, and it would be more robust and more easily extensible.
2018-12-16T20:54:13Z aeth: Zipheir: Now, the real question is, who has 5 years to devote full time to doing that?
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2018-12-16T20:56:27Z Zipheir: aeth: Indeed.
2018-12-16T20:56:51Z Zipheir: aeth: Maybe the project could be called something like "Acme"...
2018-12-16T20:57:24Z Zipheir: I kid, Acme would not satisfy any emacs savants.
2018-12-16T20:57:48Z aeth: really, all you need is emacs keybindings
2018-12-16T20:57:56Z aeth: between emacs and readline, they're the only thing I know how to do anymore
2018-12-16T20:58:05Z aeth: I find myself accidentally using them all the time in other places.
2018-12-16T20:58:38Z amz3: aeth: +1
2018-12-16T20:59:20Z Zipheir: All you need is _not_ emacs keybindings! Lots of rarely-used editors (mg, for one) have them.
2018-12-16T20:59:46Z Zipheir: All you need is emacs' deep programmability.
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2018-12-16T20:59:52Z aeth: Zipheir: You need the Emacs keybindings and then you need any 187 of a list of 1000 features.
2018-12-16T21:00:05Z aeth: Zipheir: And ideally, extension writers write the rest
2018-12-16T21:00:24Z Zipheir: Incidentally, beyond the basics, the emacs keybinding language is a nightmare.
2018-12-16T21:01:11Z Zipheir: To take a leaf out of sam's book, the minibuffer should instead be a terminal for a LISP command language interpreter.
2018-12-16T21:01:24Z aeth: honestly, I'd much rather use scancode keybindings by default so the same muscle memory can be used on any keyboard layout. The disadvantage is, of course, the documentation would only work on QWERTY, but it's not like people buy books anymore. You can just have a localization in the documentation
2018-12-16T21:02:11Z aeth: (any digital documentation)
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2018-12-16T21:04:40Z Zipheir: aeth: My point is that the essence of emacs is that it's _extremely_ programmable. Duplicate that--_improve_ on that--and the rest is wallpaper.
2018-12-16T21:05:20Z aeth: The worst emacs key for me ergonomically is probably M-^, which really should have a better location given how commonly it's used.
2018-12-16T21:05:58Z aeth: (it's basically the correct way to take something that's multi-line and put it on one line)
2018-12-16T21:08:39Z amz3: Zipheir: it's exterminly programme for those who dare to learn an otherwise useless language
2018-12-16T21:09:12Z Zipheir: amz3: I wouldn't say it's useless.
2018-12-16T21:09:14Z aeth: Emacs Lisp would win an award for the worst Lisp in common use today if AutoCAD didn't exist.
2018-12-16T21:09:19Z Zipheir: amz3: You learn LISP, after all.
2018-12-16T21:09:30Z Zipheir: amz3: The emacs API is pretty unfriendly, though.
2018-12-16T21:09:46Z wasamasa: you forget about bee lisp
2018-12-16T21:10:07Z aeth: Zipheir: Emacs Lisp looks like Common Lisp, but that's entirely superficial. Advanced Emacs Lisp can run in Common Lisp but isn't idiomatic and is probably slow. And, similarly, advanced Common Lisp can run in Emacs Lisp, but it won't necessarily fit Emacs's model
2018-12-16T21:10:29Z aeth: (And not all CL can run in elisp, anyway)
2018-12-16T21:11:02Z Zipheir: aeth: I know, you can give your fingers a break. :)
2018-12-16T21:11:04Z aeth: Anyone who came to Common Lisp from Emacs Lisp is going to have to unlearn a lot. And even more with coming to Scheme.
2018-12-16T21:15:24Z edw: Zipheir: Don't you realize that we're all here to give tedious lectures to each other about things the victim understand better than the lecturer?
2018-12-16T21:16:42Z Zipheir: edw: Let me explain something to you, since you don't seem to understand: We're all here to give tedious lectures to each other about things the victims understand better than the lecturers.
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2018-12-16T21:27:40Z edw smiles.
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2018-12-16T21:41:15Z amz3: after the url shortener I will make a bot to count the number of times you compare lisp with each other
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2018-12-16T22:12:17Z jcowan: elderK: see http://agl.cs.unm.edu/~williams/cs491/three-imp.pdf (Dybvig's thesis on implementing Scheme in various ways).  190pp
2018-12-16T22:13:34Z Zipheir: Right, I meant to read that paper, along with Olin Shivers' CPS paper.
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2018-12-16T22:23:44Z amz3: https://asciinema.org/a/2yZdncHA3tKgeYBzVGBfI371v
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2018-12-16T22:28:42Z amz3: https://culturia.one/
2018-12-16T22:29:10Z amz3: oops doesn't work
2018-12-16T22:31:21Z amz3: this one work http://culturia.one/
2018-12-16T22:31:37Z amz3: also I am testing http://git.sr.ht/
2018-12-16T22:32:04Z amz3: this will build upon my previous works on culturia even if most will be recoded
2018-12-16T22:32:19Z amz3: because chez
2018-12-16T22:33:37Z Zipheir: Oh, it's the zombie blog generator.
2018-12-16T22:33:58Z amz3: not really, I will zombie blog syntax to build a wiki
2018-12-16T22:34:16Z amz3: maybe i will make it a static blog generator too, but I need to focus
2018-12-16T22:36:24Z amz3: culturia use to be a bulletin board + wiki + search engine
2018-12-16T22:36:34Z amz3: I need to rebuild all that and avoid the "anonymous" trap
2018-12-16T22:36:39Z amz3: https://todo.sr.ht/%7Eamz3/culturia.one
2018-12-16T22:38:32Z amz3: I will move my zk editor to this repository too
2018-12-16T22:38:35Z amz3: but not right now
2018-12-16T22:38:49Z amz3: I need sleep
2018-12-16T22:38:54Z amz3: monorepo ftw
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2018-12-16T23:07:28Z edw: Anyone know why MIT Scheme might give me this when I try to yank in a buffer? "Internal error: The object #!unspecific, passed as an argument to string-null?, is not a string."
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2018-12-17T07:51:28Z ecraven: edw: in edwin? maybe check the backtrace, it is usually very good in mit scheme
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2018-12-17T11:03:20Z edw: ecraven: Thanks. It happens in terminal edwin but not X11 edwin. Odd.
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2018-12-17T16:06:07Z siraben: I'm trying to write an assembler in Scheme.  Any suggestions on how I should organize the assembler data?
2018-12-17T16:06:14Z siraben: Especially when the arguments can vary, such as
2018-12-17T16:06:34Z siraben: (ld a 8) vs (ld a (fetch hl))
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2018-12-17T16:20:49Z gwatt: siraben: I'm not sure what you mean by "organize the assembler data". Are you asking how to stringify an instruction knowing that some arguments may be "expressions" and not just registers / frame locations?
2018-12-17T16:23:41Z Riastradh: siraben: Do I understand correctly you're choosing a Lisp syntax for some machine's assembly language?
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2018-12-17T16:29:36Z Riastradh: There are a few existing systems you might draw from, e.g. MIT Scheme's compiler.  It's not a fully general-purpose assembler: it isn't packaged up to run standalone, and there may be some quirks with branch tensioning decisions that might need to be changed in a general-purpose assembler.
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2018-12-17T17:57:28Z siraben: Riastradh:  Yes I'm using a Lisp syntax for an assembly language.
2018-12-17T17:58:34Z siraben: Riastradh:  I see.  Well by "organizing the assembler data" I mean that if a new target comes along I change the program at one place and it assembles correctly for the new target
2018-12-17T17:58:49Z siraben: Right now it feels scattered around different alists and macros
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2018-12-17T18:01:30Z pjb: siraben: often, there is more regularity in the processor instruction encoding than what is apparent from the assembler names and descriptions given to them.  So a close analyse of the structure of the instruction codes should let you design a simple and homogeneous sexp form to describe them. Then you can use some kind of macro to give them human-readable names like the constructor does.
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2018-12-17T18:08:09Z siraben: pjb: Thanks, I've begun to notice that. Pattern matching (Guile's ice-9 match) is really helping here
2018-12-17T18:09:17Z siraben: All that's really left to implement is labels, which shouldn't be too hard, and other things like filling bytes, ascii strings ans macros
2018-12-17T18:09:28Z siraben: And*
2018-12-17T18:14:20Z duncanm: hey Riastradh
2018-12-17T18:14:38Z pjb: I have an example of a LAP in https://groups.google.com/forum/#!msg/comp.lang.lisp/QMakibYYZRg/fgQulr5b4BwJ and another very simple (for a VM) in https://groups.google.com/forum/#!msg/comp.lang.lisp/HqV4B5aoj-c/yI4_av1C6KUJ
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2018-12-17T18:28:15Z Riastradh: siraben: There's a lot of differences between architectures that mean it's not really useful to use common syntax for all of them; at that point you've got yourself a compiler for a higher-level language.
2018-12-17T18:30:03Z Riastradh: siraben: E.g., on some architectures there's a compare-and-branch instruction; in others there's a compare-and-set-condition-codes instruction, and separate test-condition-codes-and-branch instructions.  The widths of immediate operands are all different.  Sometimes there's PC-relative addressing; sometimes there isn't.
2018-12-17T18:31:23Z amz3: so websocket is not possible with fcgi
2018-12-17T18:31:25Z ggole: Go's assembler more or less does that
2018-12-17T18:32:12Z ggole: I'm not sure whether I would consider it a good idea or not.
2018-12-17T18:34:20Z Riastradh: There's not much straight-line assembly code in MIT Scheme's compiler -- the assembler is used mainly for, well, generating code in the compiler -- but here's a small example: http://git.savannah.gnu.org/cgit/mit-scheme.git/tree/src/compiler/machines/x86-64/rules3.scm#n663
2018-12-17T18:40:12Z Riastradh: Corresponding code for HPPA -- as you can see, it looks rather different.  Is there a rough correspondence?  Sure, but identifying the commonality in an assembler syntax not terribly useful; there is a machine-independent RTL used at a higher level in the compiler anyway.
2018-12-17T18:40:17Z Riastradh: er
2018-12-17T18:40:20Z Riastradh: https://git.savannah.gnu.org/cgit/mit-scheme.git/tree/src/compiler/machines/spectrum/rules3.scm?id=0294c5a1b27666b0296e6ef4bd33d80e2e6ab2ae#n1133
2018-12-17T18:40:25Z rudybot: http://teensy.info/jByvcLN44G
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2018-12-18T03:51:01Z siraben: In my assembler written in Scheme I'm adding support for labels and jumps, but how should I handle jump instructions that refer to labels later in the program?
2018-12-18T03:51:45Z siraben: Seems like I would need multiple passes of the program and keep track of how many bytes each instruction uses, to compute the absolute jump
2018-12-18T03:54:55Z siraben: ^this is similar to the problem of allowing scheme procedures to refer to procedures declare after it
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2018-12-18T04:44:55Z gwatt: Multiple passes make sense
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2018-12-18T05:09:23Z siraben: Maybe this is overkill but I'm using a record type containing an entry signifying the number of bytes the instruction takes, how many cycles it takes (for performance tracking) and a thunk that computes the byte sequence
2018-12-18T05:09:59Z siraben: On the first pass the instructions get transformed into these records, then the labels are computed by partial sums of the byte length entry in the records
2018-12-18T05:10:43Z siraben: Once the label's addresses are computed and stored in an alist the second pass forces the thunk in each record and that's the assembly done
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2018-12-18T05:36:57Z GreaseMonkey: i think the usual approach for the label problem is to let the one writing the code specify the kind of jump opcode to use, otherwise drop to a sane default, and then make a note of the address that needs to be filled in with the label
2018-12-18T05:37:50Z GreaseMonkey: well, jump opcode or load opcode or whatever
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2018-12-18T07:21:21Z dieggsy: This may be sort of arbitrary, but i'm wondering why scheme (or at least the implementations I've tried) doesn't have shorthand printed representation for circular lists, like common lisp and racket
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2018-12-18T08:11:14Z ecraven: read up on one and two-pass assemblers
2018-12-18T08:12:13Z ecraven: alternatively, just assume longer jumps, leading to non-optimal code but easier assembly
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2018-12-18T10:08:12Z edw: dieggsy: Chibi seems pretty good at that.
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2018-12-18T10:21:55Z siraben: ecraven: Two-pass works https://github.com/siraben/zkeme80/blob/master/assembler3.scm
2018-12-18T10:23:39Z ecraven: yea, same thing I did for that dcpu-16 think way back when
2018-12-18T10:24:50Z siraben: `match` is a lovely thing
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2018-12-18T12:16:01Z edw: I noticed that there's no SRFI for a zipper. Any thoughts on whether the world would appreciate one?
2018-12-18T12:17:56Z jcowan: Can't hurt, might help.
2018-12-18T12:18:01Z edw: I'm currently writing one that handles lists, vectors, sets, bags, and hash-tables. I'm kinda tired of nested-datastructure-update hell.
2018-12-18T12:18:59Z amz3: +1
2018-12-18T12:19:07Z jcowan: R7RS was the first Scheme standard to require CL-style printing of shared and circular data structure, and there are now several write functions that differ in their handling of it
2018-12-18T12:19:36Z edw: It would be purely functional. No interest in mutating.
2018-12-18T12:21:14Z jcowan: Note the imperative SRFI 123.  It would be good to align your names with it, but not to collide with them more than necessary.
2018-12-18T12:22:33Z edw: Noted. Risk is minimal.
2018-12-18T12:25:03Z edw: Biggest issue is that zip is taken. SRFI-1's `zip` (which is the same as Python's IIRC) seems more like a `rotate`. `Inspect` might work for my needs.
2018-12-18T13:14:30Z jcowan: yex, zip has nothing to do with zippers: there aren't enough metaphors to go around
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2018-12-18T13:22:23Z xtrntr_: hi, which dialect of scheme should i use to work through sicp? (not my first rodeo, i've worked through exercises here and there up to chapter 4 before)
2018-12-18T13:24:49Z ogamita: xtrntr_: : mit-scheme
2018-12-18T13:25:09Z ogamita: xtrntr_: I hear Racket has a sicp lang too.
2018-12-18T13:25:28Z ogamita: xtrntr_: but the environment used by the teacher is mit-scheme edwin.
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2018-12-18T13:34:44Z edw: Poof.
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2018-12-18T13:45:00Z jcowan: Racket is probably easier to use in SICP mode
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2018-12-18T14:05:28Z edw: S/he'll be back.
2018-12-18T14:05:59Z edw: FWIW: Zippers in Scheme <https://gist.github.com/edw/7e40aeb30f3bc6f309bf3d6d9f155890>.
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2018-12-18T16:30:22Z rain1: what schemes/specs are there for hashtable literals?
2018-12-18T16:30:41Z rain1: i think #{ ... } is not an option because apparently symbols are written that way ? (what was wrong with ||)
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2018-12-18T16:32:20Z gwatt: #{ } is Chez reader syntax (maybe other schemes) for literal gensyms, and || is also Chez reader syntax for extended identifiers (containing spaces, apostrophes, commas, etc)
2018-12-18T16:32:37Z rain1: ah guile seems to be using it too for gensyms I guess
2018-12-18T16:33:10Z rain1: '#{foo}#
2018-12-18T16:33:12Z rain1: $1 = foo
2018-12-18T16:33:14Z rain1: idk...
2018-12-18T16:33:16Z rain1: it seems bad
2018-12-18T16:33:34Z rain1: (eq? 'foo '#{foo}#)
2018-12-18T16:33:36Z rain1: $2 = #t
2018-12-18T16:33:47Z rain1: > (eq? 'foo '#{foo})
2018-12-18T16:33:49Z rain1: #f
2018-12-18T16:33:51Z rain1: guile then chez
2018-12-18T16:34:59Z gwatt: I usually end up writing alist->hashtable and just using that. Maybe not ideal, but it beats mucking around in the reader
2018-12-18T16:37:32Z rain1: yeah
2018-12-18T16:37:39Z rain1: https://github.com/aconchillo/guile-json/issues/25
2018-12-18T16:38:24Z rain1: this isn't really acceptable yet
2018-12-18T16:38:34Z rain1: and the fact symbols are being done with #{ kind of ruins things
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2018-12-18T16:40:42Z wasamasa: why not {}
2018-12-18T16:40:45Z gwatt: can you specify a multi-character sequence after # ?
2018-12-18T16:40:49Z wasamasa: it's reserved after all
2018-12-18T16:45:32Z rain1: im not sure
2018-12-18T16:45:41Z Riastradh: edw: Rather than start with a SRFI for a zipper, why don't you start with code for a zipper that does what you want?
2018-12-18T16:45:41Z rain1: just {} on its own would be nice actually
2018-12-18T16:46:52Z Riastradh: siraben: The first-order approximation to standard thing is to assemble what you can leaving spaces for the label addresses, and then when you've determined where the labels are, fill in the spaces.
2018-12-18T16:47:54Z Riastradh: siraben: But that's not quite all because sometimes the size of the space (and the surrounding bits of instruction stream) for a PC-relative address depends on the distance from the PC to the label.
2018-12-18T16:48:31Z Riastradh: siraben: The easy, dumb way is to pick the largest possible instruction sequence -- possibly requiring some temporary registers -- so that there is always space if you can fit the program in memory.
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2018-12-18T16:50:29Z Riastradh: siraben: The standard way is to do what's called `branch tensioning', which is to record in each PC-relative address all the ways that it _could_ be assembled in ascending order of size; then tentatively try the smallest encodings first, but if one doesn't fit, expand it -- which may change some of the distances, so you have to iterate.
2018-12-18T16:54:52Z Riastradh: It turns out to be an NP-hard problem, but if you're satisfied with a solution that is merely good if not optimal, there's an easy quadratic-time algorithm which is to go through each branch and widen it if it's currently too narrow, and then repeat until no change.
2018-12-18T16:56:13Z jcowan: Racket uses #hasheq, #hasheqv, and #hash followed by a key-value alist as its external representation of hash tables.
2018-12-18T16:56:26Z Riastradh: (Also sometimes called `branch displacement optimization'.)
2018-12-18T16:56:26Z rain1: interesting
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2018-12-18T16:58:09Z Riastradh: siraben: Here's an example of a variable-width branch (which doesn't cover all cases, but does cover anything for code blocks under two gigabytes): https://git.savannah.gnu.org/cgit/mit-scheme.git/tree/src/compiler/machines/x86-64/instr1.scm#n566
2018-12-18T16:59:18Z Riastradh: siraben: The compiler just spits out (jmp (@pcr foo)) for a PC-relative jump to foo; the assembler then works out a good (but perhaps not optimal) choice for which jmp encoding to use.
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2018-12-18T17:02:26Z edw: Riastradh: I wrote the zipper.
2018-12-18T17:02:29Z Riastradh: But the compiler can also say (jmp b (@pcr foo)) for a short jump and (jmp l (@pcr foo)) for a long jump, if necessary.
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2018-12-18T17:18:40Z edw: rain1: <http://github.com/thunknyc/i7t>
2018-12-18T17:23:00Z rain1: :D
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2018-12-18T17:37:20Z razzy: hi, i am looking for mit-scheme manual of the insides
2018-12-18T17:37:36Z razzy: i want to determine how hard would be to rework it
2018-12-18T17:37:48Z razzy: if neccessary
2018-12-18T17:39:55Z razzy: Riastradh: the widening of solution space until good/no-change is what chess programs use.
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2018-12-18T17:41:22Z rain1: so here's my proposal for literal hash tabel syntax
2018-12-18T17:41:28Z rain1: {key val key val ...}
2018-12-18T17:41:58Z rain1: i guess it needs a marker for if its an eq or equal hash table :/
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2018-12-18T17:49:18Z razzy: or i am looking for simplest scheme possible. i always feel that way when i am tired of other people solutions
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2018-12-18T17:50:34Z rain1: razzy: check my scheme out
2018-12-18T17:50:48Z rain1: https://github.com/rain-1/tarot-compiler
2018-12-18T17:52:46Z edw: rain1: You have my support.
2018-12-18T17:53:07Z rain1: i was also considering #{ and #eq{
2018-12-18T17:53:19Z rain1: it is kind of annoying about eq hash tabless
2018-12-18T17:53:28Z edw: The I7t supports EDN tagged literals.
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2018-12-18T17:55:17Z edw: rain1: I think the Scheme community should take a step back however and ask what it wants to accomplish. The recent thread on the Guile mailing list about one of the three JSON packages was maddening. Scheme utterly conflates the "what is this?" question with "what is this _made out of_?"
2018-12-18T17:56:08Z rain1: oh i read that thread
2018-12-18T17:56:24Z edw: A assoc is a dictionary. A hash table is a dictionary. A record can be a dictionary. Or a function, if you will, with a domain and a range. So is a set. (But a bag isn't, unless as considered as a set.)
2018-12-18T17:56:45Z edw: Er, s/assoc/alist/
2018-12-18T17:56:47Z rain1: the biggest thing for me is the json macro
2018-12-18T17:57:00Z rain1: I am glad i was able to express to them why that macro is not the right thing
2018-12-18T17:59:28Z edw: There was so much to face-palm at. That it's impossible to decide what to turn '((a b c) (d e f)) into without annotation is absurd. Or: it's obviously true, but there's no sane way to perform that annotation.
2018-12-18T17:59:53Z rain1: yeah, I think we cleared that up though!
2018-12-18T18:00:04Z rain1: https://github.com/aconchillo/guile-json/issues/22
2018-12-18T18:00:34Z rain1: we just needed to make the bijection clear and stick to it
2018-12-18T18:03:29Z Riastradh: razzy: Rework what?  What parts are you looking for a manual for?
2018-12-18T18:04:02Z edw: I dunno, the problem seems cultural and not technical. As long people think alists are OK, this will b a problem. And yes, they're sometimes faster than some implementations of hash maps, but that's what it's important to have a rich mapping type that hides its implementation strategy from users.
2018-12-18T18:04:51Z rain1: hmm not sure i totally follow
2018-12-18T18:06:20Z razzy: Riastradh: i want pure functional lisp. and when i try some language, i get dissapointed. that something is very difficult to do
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2018-12-18T18:06:31Z rain1: why ?
2018-12-18T18:06:34Z edw: rain1: Clojure implements small maps (n <= 10?) as vectors of map entries. Bigger ones are hash tables. Or a map could be a big map that's had many of its elements `dissoc`ed, so it's a hash table but with deletions.
2018-12-18T18:07:09Z razzy: Riastradh: than i get frustrated and want to throw away some insides of implementation
2018-12-18T18:07:21Z edw: There's a Mappable protocol or similar, and several persistent data structures that implement it.
2018-12-18T18:07:38Z razzy: and than problems starts. so i am looking for *good* docummentation
2018-12-18T18:07:56Z razzy: and small simple implementation
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2018-12-18T18:08:41Z gwatt: edw: But the internal representation and what the scm->json accepts could be different. alists are nice because you can type them out whereas hashtables have no (standard) printable syntax
2018-12-18T18:08:43Z edw: The guy saying "alist scans are faster than hash lookups for most tables I use" is performing premature optimization, and his code, handed off to someone else who doesn't realize that some map-ular data struct is implemented as an alist puts 100k elements in it and wonders why performance sucks.
2018-12-18T18:09:16Z edw: gwatt: Is that an argument for alists or an argument for supporting maps as first-class literals?
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2018-12-18T18:10:08Z gwatt: It's an argument that right now, in portable scheme, alists are the best way to represent key-value sets
2018-12-18T18:10:27Z edw: gwatt: Don't get me wrong, it's a huge PITA that I can't print a freaking hashtable without contortions in nearly every Scheme out there.
2018-12-18T18:11:50Z gwatt: I would expect every scheme fails, since you need to print out the hash and equality function
2018-12-18T18:12:08Z rain1: edw that guy was really negative and i thought that kind of message was inappropriate for a release
2018-12-18T18:12:32Z edw: gwatt: That's depressingly true as well.
2018-12-18T18:13:08Z edw: I started skimming, pre-wincing at the messages after a while, rain1.
2018-12-18T18:13:10Z rain1: it is an issue that you can't really read/write hashtables in a portable way. i think we should try to fix that
2018-12-18T18:13:21Z edw: Oui oui.
2018-12-18T18:14:28Z Riastradh: razzy: What do you want a pure functional Lisp for?  It's pretty easy to write an evaluator for that, but what's your goal with it?
2018-12-18T18:17:40Z rain1: do we really need 2 kinds of hash table?
2018-12-18T18:19:44Z DKordic: razzy: [[http://community.schemewiki.org/?Lisp-In-Small-Pieces][LiSP]], [[https://mitpress.mit.edu/books/essentials-programming-languages-third-edition][Essentials of Programming Languages]]?
2018-12-18T18:20:12Z edw: The "alists are faster" people have a point. It's just that their point is that a map is an interface and not a datastructure. Calling the type a hash table is dumb.
2018-12-18T18:20:43Z wasamasa: rain1: it's done often in practice
2018-12-18T18:21:15Z rain1: not really
2018-12-18T18:21:17Z rain1: its just one person
2018-12-18T18:21:47Z wasamasa: wat
2018-12-18T18:23:14Z wasamasa: ruby added an optimization in 2.0 where hashes with 6 entries or less are stored in a densely packed hash, no actual hashing happens there
2018-12-18T18:23:42Z wasamasa: java did maps as an interface since like forever
2018-12-18T18:23:58Z rain1: the anti-mutation cargo culting is the worst part
2018-12-18T18:24:01Z wasamasa: clojure does generate array and hash-backed maps as needed
2018-12-18T18:24:10Z wasamasa: I'm sure there's more
2018-12-18T18:27:31Z razzy: Riastradh: i want to build my personal language. that i will use everywhere eventually
2018-12-18T18:28:18Z edw: rain1: The alist people are doing their best, because, as gwatt pointed out, the alternative is...not much of an alternative. There's more than one alist clinger out there.
2018-12-18T18:28:39Z razzy: my goal: very simple lisp, that runs everywhere, and can run massive parael AST.
2018-12-18T18:28:48Z razzy: propably its own os
2018-12-18T18:30:06Z razzy: so i want something simple with good doccumentation
2018-12-18T18:30:24Z razzy: i can snowball from there
2018-12-18T18:31:53Z gwatt: edw: the best I can think of for reader syntax is to use { } and default to symbol-hash/symbol=?. Maybe support detecting strings and using string-hash/string=?
2018-12-18T18:32:05Z gwatt: or maybe just default to equal-hash/equal?
2018-12-18T18:32:13Z edw: razzy: I send this link to you with a sense of espirt de corps: http://marktarver.com/bipolar.html
2018-12-18T18:33:35Z edw: gwatt: Or (make-default-comparator) on R7RS. I am somewhat ashamed to admit that I haven't read the docs on comparators enough to know why I should even use any comparator except the return value of (make-default-comparator).
2018-12-18T18:33:54Z edw: s/even/ever/
2018-12-18T18:34:21Z gwatt: This is the first I've heard of make-default-comparator
2018-12-18T18:34:53Z razzy: edw: it is ultimate unrechable goal.
2018-12-18T18:35:06Z razzy: in 20 years time
2018-12-18T18:35:38Z edw: SRFI-2^^8 if you haven't already looked it up, gwatt.
2018-12-18T18:40:38Z Riastradh: razzy: Use for what?
2018-12-18T18:40:55Z gwatt: Riastradh: to make ecommerce sites in scheme
2018-12-18T18:41:08Z Riastradh: What?  Is this gavino?
2018-12-18T18:41:24Z razzy: Riastradh: to play with it :D
2018-12-18T18:42:33Z razzy: and do not have to learn new language every 2 years
2018-12-18T18:43:04Z edw: sed s/Regular Expressions/Scheme for Web Apps/ < jwz-rant.txt
2018-12-18T18:43:57Z edw: razzy: There's nothing wrong with learning a new language every two years. Learning a new web app framework every two years because webdev hipster fashion shifts, not that is insane.
2018-12-18T18:44:09Z edw: s/not/now/
2018-12-18T18:45:41Z razzy: i want simple 70 function lispy-language that have modules for specialists :]
2018-12-18T18:45:55Z razzy: that i would almost never touch
2018-12-18T18:46:07Z razzy: functional, schemy of course
2018-12-18T18:46:59Z edw: If you write these things for anyone but yourself, you are going to receive at the very least a bit of pushback.
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2018-12-18T18:48:01Z wasamasa: I assume that's how txr-lisp happened
2018-12-18T18:49:52Z razzy: edw: great article :]
2018-12-18T18:50:58Z razzy: Riastradh asked, and somebody might think about that already.
2018-12-18T18:51:40Z razzy: naysayers without explanation mean very little to me
2018-12-18T18:52:03Z wasamasa: I wrote a bit of it for fun, it's remarkably concise and elegant: https://github.com/wasamasa/mal-candidates/tree/master/txr-lisp
2018-12-18T18:53:01Z wasamasa: shortly after I published this, I got mail from the author how to make it even more concise :D
2018-12-18T18:54:00Z gwatt: what is MAL?
2018-12-18T18:54:14Z wasamasa: a guide on how to make a lisp
2018-12-18T18:54:34Z gwatt: oh, "Make a LISP" ?
2018-12-18T18:54:54Z wasamasa: yup
2018-12-18T18:54:59Z wasamasa: the lisp is a clojure though :D
2018-12-18T18:57:09Z wasamasa: picolisp is another oddball one I can recommend studying
2018-12-18T18:57:22Z razzy: wasamasa: i wanted to asked about it
2018-12-18T18:57:24Z wasamasa: newlisp not so much
2018-12-18T18:57:46Z wasamasa: the repo contains lots of demo code to see how practical it is to implement a lisp interpreter with the given language
2018-12-18T18:57:52Z razzy: maru seen interesting, on my bucket list
2018-12-18T18:58:06Z wasamasa: maru is indeed
2018-12-18T18:58:16Z wasamasa: I only wish I'd get it to bootstrap
2018-12-18T18:59:15Z edw: gwatt: "Mal" mean "bad" in German.
2018-12-18T18:59:43Z edw: Also in a bunch of other languages?
2018-12-18T19:00:05Z wasamasa: more of mark (as in stigma)
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2018-12-18T19:01:20Z razzy: i spend some months of thinking about picolisp. many good ideas there. only problem i have, picolisp does not support adressing of cells directly
2018-12-18T19:01:28Z edw: Will defer to your probably superior knowledge.
2018-12-18T19:01:46Z razzy: i would like to stack up adresses and make skiplist, and so far no good way
2018-12-18T19:02:04Z wasamasa: skiplists are too fancy for picolisp
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2018-12-18T19:02:33Z razzy: i think skiplist are simple and powerfull, right in picolisp arena
2018-12-18T19:02:48Z wasamasa: nono, they aren't because picolisp has three types
2018-12-18T19:02:56Z wasamasa: numbers, symbols, pairs
2018-12-18T19:03:15Z razzy: do i need 4th type, adresses?
2018-12-18T19:03:21Z wasamasa: strings are just a special kind of symbols, pointers are numbers, addresses are numbers, etc.
2018-12-18T19:03:43Z razzy: i am ok with stings and symbols being one same thing
2018-12-18T19:03:57Z wasamasa: nil, () and "" are the same falsy thing
2018-12-18T19:04:15Z razzy: *strings
2018-12-18T19:04:50Z wasamasa: I've found another enthusiast of it this year at froscon, he told me they were considering to add a limited form of array support
2018-12-18T19:05:01Z razzy: nooooooooo
2018-12-18T19:05:12Z wasamasa: you malloc an array (which gives you a pointer which is a number), then there's a few procedures to manipulate that pointer
2018-12-18T19:05:15Z razzy: no array is good thing
2018-12-18T19:05:17Z edw: Scheme is nearly as bad. I usually box 'nil to get an actual "nothingness" value.
2018-12-18T19:05:17Z wasamasa: and eventually you free it
2018-12-18T19:05:42Z wasamasa: it's as dangerous as it gets and doesn't disturb the existing three types
2018-12-18T19:05:55Z edw: Who needs random access?!
2018-12-18T19:07:00Z razzy: with skiplist, i do not need databases
2018-12-18T19:07:23Z razzy: and all that not lispy things
2018-12-18T19:07:24Z wasamasa: the picolisp guy made a database system, based on trees (which are just pairs)
2018-12-18T19:08:03Z razzy: yes, binary trees. i was not able to properly use them yet
2018-12-18T19:09:01Z razzy: the syntax of picolisp feels so unnatural, i only touch it with long stick
2018-12-18T19:09:10Z wasamasa: it's an oddball for sure
2018-12-18T19:09:17Z edw: Binary trees? Not B-trees? Not red-black trees? You really at some point want to have more than two contiguous things glommed together.
2018-12-18T19:09:45Z wasamasa: what surprised me most when meeting its author in person is that he isn't a crazy scientist, just an opinionated guy with lots of experience
2018-12-18T19:10:06Z wasamasa: there is a method to the madness
2018-12-18T19:10:12Z edw: There was a vector-based lisp, the name of which I've forgotten. Seems to make a bit more sense than pairs these days.
2018-12-18T19:10:43Z razzy: wasamasa: yes, carefully hidden method :]
2018-12-18T19:11:15Z edw: wasamasa: There are days when I'm playing with on my HP calculators that I wonder why I don't forgo the decadence of Lisp and move on to Forth.
2018-12-18T19:11:27Z razzy: pair, vector. all is list
2018-12-18T19:11:47Z wasamasa: edw: I've yet to play with forth
2018-12-18T19:12:01Z wasamasa: edw: I even have a project idea it might work for
2018-12-18T19:13:37Z edw: I was watching an EEVblog video about his new http://swissmicros.com/ calculator and I started thinking: Why not a handheld lisp calculator?
2018-12-18T19:13:57Z razzy: edw: it is called smartphone?
2018-12-18T19:14:47Z edw: Check out the URL. They have a CC-sized H-P 15C. If I weren't in Paris I'd order one.
2018-12-18T19:14:54Z pjb: edw: an Android smartphone with ecl or maxima.
2018-12-18T19:15:34Z edw: It's all about the physicality.
2018-12-18T19:16:50Z pjb:  Better bring a bluetooth keyboard with you!
2018-12-18T19:21:19Z edw: <https://share.icloud.com/photos/0Gt7D5-qrAB3B8lwIJiCDa2-Q#Paris_-_6th_arr>
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2018-12-18T19:23:21Z razzy: edw: do you want to explain B-trees?
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2018-12-18T19:26:08Z edw: Short answer: trees but each node has an array of elements. For a binary tree each node is either a leaf or has a left and/or right child. B-tree-like data structures are used in the wild. Binary trees, aside from "guess the animal" type games, are not.
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2018-12-18T19:27:32Z edw: First approximation answer. I am throwing it out there to inspire others to nitpick.
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2018-12-18T19:37:20Z tautologico: edw: you don't consider the red-black trees that are widely used as (ordered) dictionaries, along with other balanced trees, as binary trees?
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2018-12-18T19:40:36Z razzy: did you meant guess my number game?
2018-12-18T19:41:07Z edw: tautologico: They're not binary trees for the purposes of a programming language that has only numbers, symbols, and pairs. You need an extra datum in the interior nodes, so pairs don't cut it -- you need two pairs.
2018-12-18T19:42:28Z edw: razzy: I was thinking of the game that came on the DOS 3.3 boot disk on my parents' Apple //e. It was a guess-the-animal game written in AppleSoft [] BASIC.
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2018-12-18T19:43:20Z edw: s/[]/][/
2018-12-18T19:45:35Z edw: razzy: See page 139. <https://www.scribd.com/document/49071056/Apple-II-DOS-User-s-Manual>
2018-12-18T19:46:44Z edw: Each interior node contained a question and the subtrees corresponded to yes and no answers.
2018-12-18T19:47:22Z muelleme quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2018-12-18T19:47:28Z edw: This was entertainment when you were eight years old in 1981. It beat "stick" and "rock."
2018-12-18T19:50:43Z edw: Today eight year olds get to watch AI-synthesized YouTube videos and pr0n.
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2018-12-18T20:10:06Z jcowan: edw: The barriers to extending Scheme syntax are practical ones.  The vast majority of Schemes have hard-coded readers and aren't open to random new lexical syntax hacks, and the more of them there are, the harder it is for everybody to keep up.  Because lexical syntax is global, you have to be very vigilant about avoiding unintended collisison
2018-12-18T20:10:09Z jcowan: collisions
2018-12-18T20:10:52Z jcowan: e.g. the f32(1.2 2.3 3.4) syntax for vectors of single-floats would be read by a non-SRFI-4-aware Scheme as #f 32 (1.2 2.3 3.4), a very different matter
2018-12-18T20:10:53Z ecraven: at the same time I really *want* some hash table syntax, and I also can't imagine finding any that I actually like
2018-12-18T20:11:21Z jcowan: That's the other thing: *any* changes to lexical syntax will trigger aesthetic revulsion in a large minority of programmers
2018-12-18T20:11:26Z edw: jcowan: I am very sympathetic wrt the practical problems.
2018-12-18T20:11:53Z edw: ecraven: What is wrong with {k1 v1 k2 v2}?
2018-12-18T20:12:00Z ecraven: edw: {} :P
2018-12-18T20:12:17Z edw: An empty map yes?
2018-12-18T20:12:23Z ecraven: no, I don't like {}
2018-12-18T20:12:31Z jcowan: As I said.
2018-12-18T20:12:34Z ecraven: for me, it should start with #
2018-12-18T20:12:40Z edw: But () is awesome?
2018-12-18T20:12:47Z ecraven: edw: () doesn't exist in Scheme
2018-12-18T20:12:49Z jcowan: And round and round the sides of the rathole we go!
2018-12-18T20:12:53Z ecraven: indeed ;)
2018-12-18T20:13:01Z ecraven: also, I don't like mixing keys and values without some grouping
2018-12-18T20:13:09Z ecraven: as I said, as much as I want such syntax, I don't think  i
2018-12-18T20:13:15Z ecraven: I'll ever find any I actually like
2018-12-18T20:13:34Z edw: Please excuse me but I just need to OMFG right now.
2018-12-18T20:13:42Z jcowan: Writing your own reader also has practical problems: it is probably not pluggable either, and it is hard to get it into the REPL and the compiler front end
2018-12-18T20:13:50Z ecraven: edw: feel free to move over to #clojure for {} hashes :P
2018-12-18T20:13:59Z ecraven: jcowan: mit's isn't half bad
2018-12-18T20:14:04Z ecraven: of course, it's in the CL tradition
2018-12-18T20:14:19Z jcowan: Yes, which very few readers are
2018-12-18T20:14:25Z edw: ecraven: The problem with Clojure is not the reader but everything else about it.
2018-12-18T20:14:32Z jcowan chuckles
2018-12-18T20:14:48Z ecraven: edw: what do you think of making containers / sequences applicable?
2018-12-18T20:15:35Z edw: They are in my Scheme: <https://github.com/thunknyc/i7t>.
2018-12-18T20:15:55Z ecraven: also lists?
2018-12-18T20:15:57Z ecraven: ((1 2 3) 0)?
2018-12-18T20:16:03Z edw: Yup.
2018-12-18T20:16:07Z ecraven: interesting ;)
2018-12-18T20:16:12Z jcowan: YOu can implement applicable objects with procedures; the worst part is that you can't have a type predicate for such things.
2018-12-18T20:16:13Z rain1: ecraven: what do you think about the #{foo} stuff?
2018-12-18T20:16:23Z ecraven: also for setting? ((0 1 2) 0 5) -> (5 1 2)?
2018-12-18T20:16:26Z edw: Anything that supports the 'apply method of the core.applicable protocol can be in first position.
2018-12-18T20:16:43Z edw: ecraven: Second argument is by convention default value.
2018-12-18T20:17:03Z wasamasa: rain1: that's clojure syntax for sets
2018-12-18T20:17:09Z ecraven: rain1: #{(foo . 1) (bar . 2)} is the best I could come up with, but it's not really good either :-/
2018-12-18T20:17:26Z rain1: #{ foo 1 bar 2 }  implemented for guile
2018-12-18T20:17:28Z wasamasa: rain1: considering how rarely you use them compared to hashes I wouldn't be sad about letting that syntax go
2018-12-18T20:17:32Z rain1: it's not perfect though
2018-12-18T20:17:36Z ecraven: rain1: yea, I don't like that either :P hard to please
2018-12-18T20:17:47Z rain1: but I meant #{foo} is used for gensyms
2018-12-18T20:17:48Z ecraven: there's probably a reason why CL has alists and plists, they just couldn't decide :P
2018-12-18T20:18:03Z edw: wasamasa: Yes, it's so nice: `(#{0 1 2} 1)` => 1. `(#{0 1 2} 3)` => nil.
2018-12-18T20:18:34Z wasamasa: edw: I dunno, I'd prefer an include? procedure
2018-12-18T20:18:47Z edw: It's in there if you want it.
2018-12-18T20:19:31Z wasamasa: oh, contains? is indeed a thing
2018-12-18T20:20:32Z edw: The protocols-not-types issue, one jcowan brought up when discussing the merits(?) of Clojure, is huge in Scheme-land. The alist-vs-hash-tables-as-dictionaries thing is insane. There should be a mapping _interface_. Or protocol. Whatever.
2018-12-18T20:21:07Z wasamasa: at least in scheme the use of plists is obscure
2018-12-18T20:21:07Z edw: wasamasa: SRFI-whatever has a proc (set-contains?) for that.
2018-12-18T20:21:28Z ecraven: wasamasa: probably due to no keywords
2018-12-18T20:21:32Z wasamasa: probably!
2018-12-18T20:21:47Z wasamasa: it's kind of annoying if yours has keywords, but no dedicated plist procedures :D
2018-12-18T20:21:53Z ecraven: I like alists because pretty-print does the right thing, which doesn't necessarily work for plists
2018-12-18T20:22:35Z ecraven: because: sorry, didn't want to ping you there :D
2018-12-18T20:22:48Z edw: ecraven: That's an interfaces-don't-exist problem. There should be a Printable interface or somesuch that any type can adopt.
2018-12-18T20:23:13Z ecraven: edw: that way lies CL :P
2018-12-18T20:23:18Z ecraven: (not necessarily a bad thing)
2018-12-18T20:23:19Z wasamasa: reminds me how in maru the first thing the author does is implementing an ad-hoc interface, smalltalk-style
2018-12-18T20:24:56Z edw: ecraven: I live in the real world (I hope), so I totally get the "alists actually print" argument, but it's a sad world we live in when everything winds up being made of pairs or vectors because they're the only things that print.
2018-12-18T20:27:05Z wasamasa: maru-2.4 contains a compiler from a smalltalk to s-expressions
2018-12-18T20:27:13Z wasamasa: the file is a funny mix of lisp and smalltalk
2018-12-18T20:27:42Z razzy: wasamasa: what?
2018-12-18T20:28:07Z razzy: small talk has also good ideas
2018-12-18T20:28:15Z grettke quit (Quit: "Sleep, those little slices of death — how I loathe them.")
2018-12-18T20:28:27Z ecraven: edw: well, in the end, I want a full lisp listener, like slime on steroids, where I can "present" all kinds of objects, not as text but as actual objects
2018-12-18T20:28:31Z wasamasa: I think there's a better repo for the smalltalk parts though
2018-12-18T20:29:01Z edw: IMO SRFI-99 or similar needs to be required, which gives us type introspection, which makes building protocols/interfaces and a savvy apply a very easy project. And then create a 'scheme/io interface with 'display and 'write methods that the respective procedures must use.
2018-12-18T20:29:18Z edw: ecraven: Like images in Geiser?
2018-12-18T20:29:35Z edw: With Racket, I hear.
2018-12-18T20:29:43Z ecraven: yes, but not just images
2018-12-18T20:29:49Z ecraven: all kinds of objects
2018-12-18T20:29:50Z edw: Yes I follow.
2018-12-18T20:29:54Z ecraven: like the lisp listeners of old
2018-12-18T20:30:02Z ecraven: files, audio, graphical shapes, whatever
2018-12-18T20:30:12Z ecraven: open genera has that, and clim has that to some extent
2018-12-18T20:30:35Z edw: ecraven: Jump on the Jupyter Notebook train.
2018-12-18T20:30:39Z ecraven: does geiser support images now?
2018-12-18T20:30:50Z ecraven: edw: hehe, I've been on that train since before jupyter existed :P
2018-12-18T20:30:51Z edw: ecraven: For Racket, I believe.
2018-12-18T20:30:55Z ecraven: ah, ok
2018-12-18T20:31:15Z ecraven: images work fine in r7rs-swank too, but not other kinds of objects, and not nested presentations (which don't work in slime at all anyway)
2018-12-18T20:31:36Z ecraven: enough daydreaming for tonight ;) good night
2018-12-18T20:32:06Z edw: Every direction I look in, I wish we'd just pick on effing Scheme and start building up. As jcowan said yesterday, we're all just standing on eachother's feet.
2018-12-18T20:32:52Z edw: ecraven: You'd think they would. Chapter <4 in SICP with the image composition language and all…
2018-12-18T20:33:08Z edw: Maybe that was the first ed.
2018-12-18T20:33:42Z ecraven: well, the problem is, different priorities.. chez is fine, for example, for performance, but is seriously lacking in introspection and mutability. so people use other schemes, that offer that, at the price of slower performance
2018-12-18T20:33:45Z jcowan: Not gonna happen, partly because fo the Curse of Lisp, partly because there is no external pressure towards fuller standardization
2018-12-18T20:34:06Z ecraven: jcowan: well, if there were one Scheme that was fast *and* small *and* debuggable *and* ... then maybe
2018-12-18T20:34:07Z jcowan: and also that: different Schemes for different needs
2018-12-18T20:34:09Z edw: Yeah, I hear ya.
2018-12-18T20:34:11Z ecraven: but what are the chances ;)
2018-12-18T20:34:26Z jcowan: ecraven: very unlike Clojure, then
2018-12-18T20:35:02Z ecraven: well, you want small for embeddable, but lots of libraries, very fast, but also very debuggable, all of those seem mutually impossible
2018-12-18T20:35:30Z jcowan: yes: fast, small, powerful, pick two at most
2018-12-18T20:36:00Z ecraven: not sure if chez could be made more debuggable and stay as fast as it is
2018-12-18T20:36:07Z amz3: maybe racket on chez will be that?
2018-12-18T20:36:19Z ecraven: if you add some way to enter libraries and the ability to redefine functions, then it cannot optimise as heavily
2018-12-18T20:36:33Z razzy: edw: if we do not build up from scheme, but rework insides first and again and again. we would eventualy have scheme that is better, faster, more debuggable than everything else
2018-12-18T20:37:06Z edw: I find it interesting how Gambit has been used as an ur-Scheme by many. A Scheme VM. Gerbil supports (aspirationally) R7RS, whereas the stock selection of Gambit libraries is a bit...idiosyncratic.
2018-12-18T20:37:49Z razzy: lets lay out numbered goals this scheme want to meet, and start reworking insides
2018-12-18T20:38:17Z amz3: as far as I concerned regarding chez, I only miss 'pk' procedure to print stuff
2018-12-18T20:38:36Z amz3: it easy to implement tho
2018-12-18T20:39:00Z amz3: I don't do live coding tho, so maybe people doing that need more debugging facility
2018-12-18T20:39:27Z edw: razzy: jcowan points I think to two issues. One is the incidental chaos of the Scheme community. But there is also the essential chaos. Not everyone wants the same thing. There is no "we."
2018-12-18T20:40:13Z amz3: there is no "we" in other communities, they build up with time.
2018-12-18T20:41:18Z razzy: if implementation of scheme had kvantified goals, right people would know where to flock
2018-12-18T20:42:06Z edw: There are folks who would love to fork Clojure, but the fact that they all have code to keep running and jobs to keep prevents any serious movement on that front. The "we" is created by a carrot. There are no carrots in the Scheme world.
2018-12-18T20:42:33Z edw: People have muttered about languages' killer apps…
2018-12-18T20:44:16Z razzy: if there is (list of goals), (list of problems sorted by goal_improvement/cost) in every implementation
2018-12-18T20:44:20Z tautologico: there is no scheme, there are a group of languages with a common ancestor
2018-12-18T20:44:27Z razzy: people will find theirs carrots
2018-12-18T20:44:58Z jcowan: tautologico: A bit more than that: they influence each other strongly, as do SRFIs and standards, which are not in the hands of any one faction
2018-12-18T20:45:16Z edw: Any Scheme sufficiently opinionated to be successful is not longer considered Scheme by the Scheme community. (With apologies to AI.)
2018-12-18T20:45:47Z tautologico: I see scheme more as a language-making toolkit than a language, especially if one prefers the small core versions like R5RS
2018-12-18T20:45:56Z amz3: edw: you think about racket? I was under the impression that it was racket community move to say it's not scheme anymore
2018-12-18T20:47:16Z jcowan: Certainly if they are isolated, they are self-isolated.  But less so than the Stalin "community".
2018-12-18T20:47:23Z edw: amz3: I don't think about Racket a lot. It's a bit bloated for my tastes. I'm more in tautologico
2018-12-18T20:48:00Z edw: D'oh! I'm more in tautologico's camp, seeing Scheme as a substrate.
2018-12-18T20:48:15Z amz3: ok
2018-12-18T20:48:23Z amz3: I agree then
2018-12-18T20:48:25Z tautologico: well, I do most of my practically-minded programming-with-parentheses nowadays in Racket
2018-12-18T20:48:28Z tautologico: :)
2018-12-18T20:48:45Z edw: Strange bedfellows then.
2018-12-18T20:49:09Z razzy: life made stranger bedfellows :] imho
2018-12-18T20:49:37Z jcowan: Calling Racket bloated is like calling the shell bloated because there are thousands of shell scripts available.
2018-12-18T20:49:51Z jcowan: (this was originally said about Emacs/Elisp)
2018-12-18T20:49:59Z tautologico: package management, good libraries for many common use cases, and I really like the #lang stuff for experimenting with small languages
2018-12-18T20:50:26Z tautologico: even non-sexp-based languages
2018-12-18T20:50:50Z amz3: I don't like racket's marketing slogan for making languages, I am pro making apps and build abstraction to solve problems but building language... seems like a waste of time to me.
2018-12-18T20:51:06Z edw: jcowan: DrScheme then. Under what rock did they find the UI toolkit? It makes my eyes bleed and my heart weep.
2018-12-18T20:51:18Z jcowan chuckles
2018-12-18T20:52:18Z tautologico: yeah, DrRacket has its problems, but even though I use emacs most of the time I still open DrRacket once in a while because of some feature like the macro stepper
2018-12-18T20:53:38Z tautologico: the main issue is that it is made by a research group so they won't devote too many resources making a very polished UI
2018-12-18T20:59:41Z razzy: for example i very much like absense of floating point in picolisp
2018-12-18T21:00:27Z razzy: i like absense of arrays
2018-12-18T21:02:10Z Riastradh: What have you got against floating-point and arrays?
2018-12-18T21:03:28Z razzy: ever heard expression "too pricey even for free?"
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2018-12-18T21:05:05Z edw: Riastradh: razzy's comment evokes inside me memories of your musings on the beauty and sanity and precision of floating point operations from, I dunno, '16?
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2018-12-18T21:07:31Z jcowan: They are what they are.  Some of the issues would be eliminated with the use of decimal floats, once the hardware catches up.
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2018-12-18T21:11:33Z edw: I fell into the HP calculator forum archives for a few hours today. There were threads arguing about whether cos(pi/2-epsilon) was accurate enough at the sixth or something non-zero digit. (The value is on the order of 1e-11.) We went to the moon on slide rules. Aside from finance, do many people really need more than single precision arithmetic?
2018-12-18T21:12:47Z edw: I was struck by how similar HP calculator weenies are to pixel-peeping camera nerds. People spend a lot of time taking pictures of brick walls, writing 999-line calculator programs, computing cos(89.999999999 deg) to no practical end.
2018-12-18T21:15:46Z edw: Graphics programmers for one, I hear. Creating 3D models of enormous spaces leads to gaps between polygons when objects are far from (close to?) the origin.
2018-12-18T21:17:38Z razzy: what else to do with life
2018-12-18T21:18:08Z tautologico: far from the origin
2018-12-18T21:18:34Z edw: tautologico: Merci.
2018-12-18T21:18:37Z tautologico: there are applications that really need double (or even more) precision
2018-12-18T21:20:17Z razzy: picolisp has infinite integer,so if you make you calculation, you have perfect infinite precision
2018-12-18T21:20:29Z tautologico: https://pharr.org/matt/blog/2018/03/02/rendering-in-camera-space.html shows the issue with precision for graphics
2018-12-18T21:20:41Z tautologico: yes, if you have infinite time
2018-12-18T21:20:58Z tautologico: I hear people have systems with hundreds of variables to solve, can't wait for perfection either
2018-12-18T21:20:58Z razzy: true :]
2018-12-18T21:21:39Z razzy: my point is, you can if you want
2018-12-18T21:22:27Z edw: tautologico: No doubt. The HP forum had some guy talking about nonlinear systems as a justification about being hot and bothered by a calculator's inaccurate response in the nth digit. I wanted to ask him where he was getting his 100 digits of precision or whatever for his starting conditions. Few of us are measuring the Planck constant.
2018-12-18T21:22:41Z tautologico: there's some recent research on replacements for floating-point, like posits and unums (I think?)
2018-12-18T21:23:18Z tautologico: but actually IEEE 754 is great engineering, especially for the time
2018-12-18T21:23:25Z jcowan: call me back when they have the hardware performance
2018-12-18T21:23:29Z edw: razzy: Much of the world runs on spherical-cow style physics calculations. Floating point makes the world a better place.
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2018-12-18T21:23:47Z tautologico: jcowan: any day now :) people have been dreaming with fp replacements for some time
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2018-12-18T21:24:01Z razzy: :D
2018-12-18T21:24:30Z razzy: edw: how literaly you mean your post?
2018-12-18T21:25:59Z edw: Well, the world is a horrible place and I eagerly await Big Giant Asteroid.
2018-12-18T21:26:41Z edw: But seriously, how many digits of precisions is anything measured with? Two if you're lucky.
2018-12-18T21:26:44Z jao quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2018-12-18T21:27:28Z edw: Too much Ricard: s/precisions/precision/
2018-12-18T21:38:03Z DekuDekuplex: Greetings.  This is Benjamin L. Russell.  Some of you may remember me from comp.lang.scheme.  This is my first IRC session since circa 2005.  Back then, I used Snak; now I am using IceChat 9.21.
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2018-12-18T21:41:07Z DekuDekuplex: Incidentally, how secure is this connection?  I just used "/msg NickServ REGISTER password youremail@example.com" to register my nick using a secure, unguessable password, but am concerned about whether the password might have been intercepted during transit.
2018-12-18T21:43:35Z DekuDekuplex: Generally speaking, is the nick registration procedure safe?
2018-12-18T21:45:02Z jcowan: In general, the IRC protocol is not encrypted, so security in flight is nonexistent.  Most people only talk about public matters on IRC, and masquerades on channels where you are known are fairly easy to spot (cf. the Turing Test)
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2018-12-18T21:48:33Z wasamasa: DekuDekuplex: you'll have to connect via ssl to avoid that
2018-12-18T21:48:48Z wasamasa: DekuDekuplex: judging from your /whois output that's not the case
2018-12-18T21:50:38Z DekuDekuplex: True; however, most financial institutions and e-mail services use a combination of a username/password combination together with a record of the most-recently-used IP address to authorize logins, and I am logging in from home (a non-public terminal); therefore, in practice, it is rather unlikely
2018-12-18T21:50:39Z DekuDekuplex: that this information could fool a financial institution or e-mail server.
2018-12-18T21:52:04Z gnomon: ^ half of that is true
2018-12-18T21:52:33Z gnomon: You would be shocked at how rare that "record of most-recently-used IP address" step actually is in practice among north american financial institutions.
2018-12-18T21:53:27Z gnomon: DekuDekuplex, nitpicking aside, welcome back to IRC!
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2018-12-18T21:55:17Z DekuDekuplex: Thank you, gnomon.  Currently, I am checking my login history on my browser to determine which sites where I should immediately change my password....
2018-12-18T21:56:03Z DekuDekuplex: Fortunately, a password by itself is useless without a login name.
2018-12-18T21:59:22Z jcowan: I definitely hear about it from Bank of America whenever I log in using a new IP address.
2018-12-18T21:59:38Z jcowan: (in real time, I mean; I have to answer a security question)
2018-12-18T22:00:13Z Riastradh: edw: If you can set a bound on the error, that makes downstream reasoning easier.  Intel advertised the wrong bound for their i387 FCOS/FSIN instructions (oops) because they used lousy argument reduction, so the error is something like quintillions of times worse than advertised.
2018-12-18T22:01:29Z gnomon: jcowan, oh, whoops, I was talking about email servers _run by_ financial institutions.
2018-12-18T22:02:34Z Riastradh: DekuDekuplex: You transmitted your password in the clear over the internet.  Anyone passively monitoring the connection between you and Freenode could read your password off the wire.
2018-12-18T22:03:20Z DekuDekuplex: Riastradh:  That's the reason that I am currently changing my password for each site where it is registered with my username.
2018-12-18T22:03:24Z Riastradh: DekuDekuplex: If you connect to Freenode via TLS, then it would take an active attack, with a forged certificate if your IRC client validates them, for an adversary to read the password off the wire.
2018-12-18T22:04:37Z Riastradh: DekuDekuplex: Either way, Freenode also knows the password you use.  So if you _reuse_ it for another account somewhere else, that other account is now vulnerable to Freenode's compromise.
2018-12-18T22:05:41Z DekuDekuplex: Okay; well, if I change the password at each site where it is registered, the security issue will be solved.  That is what I am currently doing.
2018-12-18T22:07:28Z Riastradh: I recommend you (a) generate a master passphrase with 128 bits of entropy and memorize it for a password manager, and (b) independently generate a separate passphrase with 128 bits of entropy for each site and store it in the password manager.  Here's the two generators I use:
2018-12-18T22:07:37Z Riastradh: tr -cd '[:graph:]' < /dev/urandom | head -c 20
2018-12-18T22:07:43Z Riastradh: https://mumble.net/~campbell/js/pwgen/
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2018-12-18T22:13:32Z jcowan: Or use a passphrase of 11 unrelated English words chosen at random from a dictionary, which has the same entropy and is probably easier to remember.
2018-12-18T22:14:42Z jcowan: There's an Asimov story about someone who chooses as his password (for his mathematical work) WEALTMDITEBIAT, and how it was eventually guessed after he lost his marbles
2018-12-18T22:15:06Z jcowan: title is something like "Millions of Billions of Combinations"
2018-12-18T22:15:12Z gnomon: correct horse battery staple
2018-12-18T22:15:21Z Riastradh: jcowan: Did you try looking at <https://mumble.net/~campbell/js/pwgen/>?
2018-12-18T22:15:28Z jcowan: no
2018-12-18T22:15:45Z Riastradh: Guess how it works!
2018-12-18T22:16:06Z jcowan: A little short.  English words have an average of 11.82 bits of entropy
2018-12-18T22:16:37Z Riastradh: This one has >129 bits of entropy.
2018-12-18T22:16:45Z Riastradh: There are 7776 words in its dictionary.
2018-12-18T22:17:16Z Riastradh: They're chosen uniformly at random, not from the distribution of word frequencies in some corpus of English prose.
2018-12-18T22:17:35Z Riastradh: rudybot: eval (* 10 (/ (log 7776) (log 2)))
2018-12-18T22:17:47Z rudybot: Riastradh: error: with-limit: out of time
2018-12-18T22:17:49Z Riastradh: rudybot: eval (* 10 (/ (log 7776) (log 2)))
2018-12-18T22:18:00Z rudybot: Riastradh: error: with-limit: out of time
2018-12-18T22:18:05Z Riastradh: rudybot: eval (+ 1 2)
2018-12-18T22:18:15Z rudybot: Riastradh: error: with-limit: out of time
2018-12-18T22:18:19Z Riastradh: rudybot: eval what is wrong with you, need to see a robot doctor?
2018-12-18T22:18:31Z Riastradh: Anyway,
2018-12-18T22:18:31Z Riastradh: (* 10 (/ (log 7776) (log 2)))
2018-12-18T22:18:32Z Riastradh: ;Value: 129.24812503605781
2018-12-18T22:18:34Z rudybot: Riastradh: error: with-limit: out of time
2018-12-18T22:19:12Z DKordic: It's a RubyBot.
2018-12-18T22:20:56Z Zipheir: Apparently xkcd's author never heard of a dictionary attack...
2018-12-18T22:21:36Z Riastradh: Zipheir: How do you conclude that?
2018-12-18T22:21:52Z jcowan: Riastradh: You are not taking into account the intraword entropy:  your dictionary may contain "lean" but is unlikely to contain "leam", though it is equally English
2018-12-18T22:22:25Z jcowan: that gives an attacker a few fractions of a bit as a handle
2018-12-18T22:22:30Z Zipheir: The 'correct horse battery staple' password-meme which has gone around the net is pretty easily attacked.
2018-12-18T22:22:35Z Riastradh: jcowan: What is `intraword entropy' and how does it change my analysis?
2018-12-18T22:23:32Z jcowan: You are treating your words as independent, but they are not; the attacker knows they are English, and probably pretty common English at that.
2018-12-18T22:23:33Z Riastradh: Zipheir: What do you assess the cost of the attack to be?  How does it compare to the cost of the attack claimed in the comic?
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2018-12-18T22:24:04Z jcowan: unfortunately, 11 words strains the 7+-2 rule
2018-12-18T22:24:20Z Riastradh: jcowan: What makes you think they are not independent?  I didn't use a Markov chain with state-dependent emission probabilities to generate the sequence.  I picked each of them independently.
2018-12-18T22:25:14Z DekuDekuplex: Apparently, I have started a discussion on an off-topic subject.  I wanted to discuss Scheme, not entropy.
2018-12-18T22:25:33Z pjb: There's #lispcafe for off-topic discussions.
2018-12-18T22:25:53Z jcowan: #scheme has a broader notion of topicality than #lisp, generally speaking
2018-12-18T22:25:53Z Zipheir: Riastradh: I don't have a rigorous argument :) The comic, IIRC, assumed a brute-force attack, but if the attacker targets lower-case english word combinations, I'm assuming the password would yield comparatively quickly.
2018-12-18T22:27:07Z jcowan: Concedo
2018-12-18T22:28:32Z Riastradh: Zipheir: OK, maybe start with: what is the distribution you're considering attacking?
2018-12-18T22:29:27Z Riastradh: Let's say there are 2000 `common English words', as the comic mentions.
2018-12-18T22:29:50Z Riastradh: (I don't think it gives a number but I think that's a reasonable number to draw from.)
2018-12-18T22:30:10Z pjb: (* 2000 11.82) #| --> 23640.0 |# bits in the English languages, and nobody can make an AI really understand it!
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2018-12-18T22:31:28Z jcowan: Consider the few bits difference between "the murmuring of innumerable bees" (a line from Tennyson) and "the murdering of innumerable beeves", not only in its semantics but in its poetic effect
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2018-12-18T22:32:36Z jcowan: the first is sound symbolic, the second is not
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2018-12-18T22:32:52Z DekuDekuplex: Apparently, this discussion is veering further and further into cryptography, and away from programming language theory.  Perhaps I should have chosen a different password when registering my nick in the beginning.
2018-12-18T22:33:25Z Riastradh: Probability theory and cryptography are fun!  There's also not enough of them in PL theory, or vice versa.
2018-12-18T22:35:01Z Zipheir: I take back my ill-informed comment about xkcd being ill-informed. Apparently there's a lot of debate about the strength of word combination passwords.
2018-12-18T22:35:24Z rain1: just calculate the entropy
2018-12-18T22:35:39Z zachk: I think employers like random passwords cause the employee's might easily forget them after they leave
2018-12-18T22:35:39Z DekuDekuplex: A problem set on discrete probability theory gave me one of two severe migraine headaches in college.  As soon as I finish changing all my currently insecure passwords, I need to change the topic here to something less painful.
2018-12-18T22:36:12Z DekuDekuplex: I am not a mathematician, and have no intention of ever becoming one, either.
2018-12-18T22:36:19Z jcowan: Nor I, certainly
2018-12-18T22:36:39Z Riastradh: Zipheir: There isn't really any debate!  (I mean I'm sure you can find something on Hacker News on the subject whose participants would call it `debate', but that doesn't really count.)
2018-12-18T22:37:12Z Riastradh: I'm not a mathematician either!
2018-12-18T22:38:12Z jcowan: I am not an authority on the subject, but I think of this as a free discussion channel for people interested in Scheme, as opposed to a channel for the discussion of Scheme, although that happens too.  I have never yet seen anyone criticized (much less ejected) for being off-topic.
2018-12-18T22:38:51Z rain1: what did you want to talk about DekuDekuplex
2018-12-18T22:38:56Z Riastradh: jcowan: Maybe for inflammatory provocation about Common Lisp versus Scheme.
2018-12-18T22:39:07Z rain1: Riastradh: I support banning that user
2018-12-18T22:39:21Z jcowan: I was ging to say that, but decided to let someone else make that point.
2018-12-18T22:39:27Z rain1: especially after they were wasting peoples time under an alternate nick
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2018-12-18T22:40:08Z Zipheir: When was this?
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2018-12-18T22:43:05Z Riastradh: Zipheir: Rather than just say `there's debate', I encourage you to work it out!  How many different passwords are there in the distribution proposed by xkcd (assuming 2000 common words)?  What is the probability of each one?  What is the _attacker's_ probability of success after n trials if they _know_ this and enumerate the passwords in some order?
2018-12-18T22:43:52Z Zipheir: Riastradh: Blech, I am not a cryptographer and am working on other things ATM.
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2018-12-18T22:47:05Z Riastradh: The one part xkcd _did_ get wrong is assuming all attacks are sequential and should be measured in units of time.
2018-12-18T22:47:11Z DekuDekuplex: Well, I started this discussion to continue the discussion back on comp.lang.scheme regarding a suitable non-Racket, GUI-based implementation of Scheme that ran on Windows 7.  So far, I am considering using Chez Scheme, with Chicken Scheme as a possible backup alternative, was about to inquire as to
2018-12-18T22:47:11Z DekuDekuplex: whether anyone had any other suggestions.  However, currently I am very busy with changing all my insecure passwords, and do not have time to respond to any replies until I'm done; therefore, this discussion had probably better wait until then
2018-12-18T22:47:21Z DekuDekuplex: .
2018-12-18T22:48:16Z Riastradh: Dunno, I avoid Windows and always have.
2018-12-18T22:48:26Z Riastradh: No clue what Schemes run on it.
2018-12-18T22:50:06Z DekuDekuplex: The Chez Scheme 9.5 REPL is actually quite nice, and runs on Windows 7 (which I run on Boot Camp on a Mac Pro); in addition, it allows full command-line editing.  Furthermore, the implementation is extremely fast.
2018-12-18T22:51:30Z DekuDekuplex: The only other implemention that I am considering seriously at this point is Chicken Scheme.  Therefore, my initial inquiry was whether there might be any alternatives to Chez and Chicken Scheme for Windows 7.
2018-12-18T22:52:33Z Riastradh: Considered alternatives to Windows 7?
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2018-12-18T22:53:47Z Riastradh: (Freenode is not likely to be a very good place to find suggestions on proprietary software platforms.)
2018-12-18T22:54:50Z DekuDekuplex: A number of applications that I use regularly run only on Windows 7; therefore, it would be difficult for me to program on another platform on a regular basis.
2018-12-18T22:55:09Z DekuDekuplex: Well, to be precise, they run only on some version of Windows, but not necessarily 7.
2018-12-18T22:55:51Z DekuDekuplex: Judging from the lack of suggestions here, it seems that I should probably stick with Chez and Chicken Scheme.
2018-12-18T22:56:05Z DekuDekuplex: Well, at least that answers my initial question.
2018-12-18T22:57:06Z DekuDekuplex: Now I can concentrate on changing my password at the remainder of my insecure sites.  I've already changed it at a number of them, and am proceeding quite efficiently.
2018-12-18T22:57:35Z DekuDekuplex: It seems that I might yet survive.
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2018-12-18T22:59:15Z jcowan: Almost all Schemes run on Windows, actually, though I have not made a formal investigation
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2018-12-19T00:30:00Z rain1: why do we need both eq and equal hash tables?
2018-12-19T00:30:23Z rain1: is it just efficiency?
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2018-12-19T01:19:43Z DekuDekuplex: Whew.  Done.  Now I can return to the previous continuation. ;-)
2018-12-19T01:20:41Z DekuDekuplex: However, now I have other business to which I must attend.  Also, I need to run an errand later.  Therefore, I'll log off now and might return later.
2018-12-19T01:21:28Z DekuDekuplex: At least now I do not need to worry about the insecure password issue, since I have secured all my insecure accounts.
2018-12-19T01:22:47Z DekuDekuplex: I'll probably leave this channel open for a while, unless I need to restart this computer.  Setting the /away flag now.  Later, everyone.
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2018-12-19T06:49:36Z wasamasa: DekuDekuplex[A]: racket works well on windows
2018-12-19T06:49:44Z wasamasa: DekuDekuplex[A]: CHICKEN not so much, no idea about chez
2018-12-19T06:51:53Z wasamasa: DekuDekuplex[A]: the problem with CHICKEN is that it requires a working C toolchain on windows which is a major pain to get right, some testing from the WSL front would be very welcome
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2018-12-19T07:15:32Z ecraven: edw: I think gerbil's r7rs support is fairly complete
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2018-12-19T07:34:51Z siraben: I'm lost on this problem I'm having.  I need to generate a list of the following form: (a a a a b a a a a b ...) consisting of 5 groups of (a a a a b) together. How do I achive this with unquote splicing?  Best I can do is `(,@(make-list 5 `(,@(make-list 4 'a) b))), but I get  ((a a a a b) ...) instead.
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2018-12-19T07:36:11Z siraben: Hm I think Riot is garbling the quasiquote
2018-12-19T07:36:16Z ecraven: siraben: I'd use (apply append ...)
2018-12-19T07:36:50Z siraben: `(,@(make-list 5 `(,@(make-list 7 'a) b)))
2018-12-19T07:36:55Z siraben: https://paste.debian.net/plain/1056492
2018-12-19T07:37:00Z siraben: ecraven:  Ah, I'll try that
2018-12-19T07:37:07Z siraben: Is it possible to use ,@ ?
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2018-12-19T07:45:25Z ecraven: I can't think of a way to do this with ,@ only
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2018-12-19T08:07:50Z siraben: ecraven: hehe https://github.com/siraben/zkeme80/blob/bf09399c9d6812cc50e6c2d976a38c1e49257b7c/assembler3.scm#L596
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2018-12-19T08:10:31Z ecraven: hehe, i
2018-12-19T08:10:39Z ecraven: I won't comment on the beauty of that :P
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2018-12-19T09:06:17Z edw: ecraven: I noticed yesterday that Gerbil doesn't have drop-right. That anecdote was the source of my aspirational parenthetical.
2018-12-19T09:06:36Z ecraven: drop-right is not in r7rs :)
2018-12-19T09:06:47Z ecraven: unless r7rs is r7rs-large
2018-12-19T09:08:01Z edw: Much of the rest of SRFI-1 was available so I assumed that I was working in an environment where all of SRFI-1 was available.
2018-12-19T09:08:18Z edw: E.g. split-at was there and working correctly.
2018-12-19T09:13:00Z edw: ecraven: Since you're here, could you tell me how to get Gerbil to load a source file as R7RS w/o starting up in R7RS mode from the command line? I tried adding "#lang :scheme/r7rs" but Gerbil barfed on that.
2018-12-19T09:13:28Z edw: I tried adding "#lang :scheme/r7rs" to the top of a source file, that is.
2018-12-19T09:14:56Z ecraven: gxi --lang r7rs seems to work for me
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2018-12-19T09:15:26Z ecraven: but I don't use gerbil much (yet) :-/ if that doesn't work, #gerbil probably knows. vyzo is there often
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2018-12-19T09:18:47Z edw: I thought perhaps your benchmarking effort had touched on that issue. BTW, drop-right is indeed available when one `(import (std srfi 1))`s.
2018-12-19T09:19:47Z ecraven: edw: the benchmarks just run gxc, it seems
2018-12-19T09:19:53Z ecraven: no special r7rs mode
2018-12-19T09:20:09Z edw: Hmm. I'll check them out.
2018-12-19T09:20:10Z ecraven: ah, the prelude has "prelude :scheme/r7rs
2018-12-19T09:20:35Z ecraven: not sure how that works, it's just the first line... src/Gerbil-prelude.scm in the repo
2018-12-19T09:31:54Z edw: I'm investigating that now. The tutorial docs say that works in packages. And in the `gerbil.pkg` file. It would be nice to be able to run `gxi` with the gerbil language and then load scheme when desired via a blurb at the top of the source file.
2018-12-19T09:32:16Z ecraven: best ask in #gerbil, vyzo is there, I think
2018-12-19T09:32:18Z ecraven: he'd know ;)
2018-12-19T09:32:25Z ecraven: ah, #gerbil-scheme actually
2018-12-19T09:32:32Z edw: BTW, those preludes and postludes are a cornucopia of helpful tips for getting an R7RSy environment in a ton of lisps. Thanks!
2018-12-19T09:32:48Z ecraven: edw: well, my secret hope is that all those s
2018-12-19T09:32:53Z edw: Yeah, #gerbil is some data-viz product.
2018-12-19T09:32:58Z ecraven: Schemes eventually add those things to actually *be* r7rs ;ñ)
2018-12-19T09:33:11Z ecraven: where feasible I've started some PRs, sometimes even successful ;)
2018-12-19T09:36:19Z edw: Godspeed, ecraven.
2018-12-19T09:46:55Z ecraven: does anyone here use shorter names for srfi 69? hash-table-ref/default is just way too long :-/
2018-12-19T09:48:04Z wasamasa: I think there's a srfi for that
2018-12-19T09:48:13Z wasamasa: https://srfi.schemers.org/srfi-123/srfi-123.html
2018-12-19T09:48:22Z ecraven: ah, thanks
2018-12-19T09:48:35Z ecraven: so that's like `element' in eulisp
2018-12-19T09:48:47Z wasamasa: I remember the discussion leading to it on #emacs :D
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2018-12-19T09:52:14Z wasamasa: taylan complained how much more convenient it is to foo[bar] and foo[bar] = baz and forcer recommended making a srfi fixing that
2018-12-19T09:52:36Z ecraven: well, ref seems ok, *if* it can be extended to work with arbitrary new containers
2018-12-19T09:52:48Z ecraven: but then, that's not really Schemely any longer :-/
2018-12-19T09:54:19Z wasamasa: doubtful
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2018-12-19T11:08:54Z ecraven: is there any programming language that uses grapheme clusters as the elements in a string, instead of codepoints?
2018-12-19T11:42:46Z DKordic: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TRON_(encoding) IIRC.
2018-12-19T11:43:07Z DKordic: Sorry, that is not a CompLang :) .
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2018-12-19T12:17:38Z ogamita: ecraven: I've not published a programing language specification yet, so I guess not.
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2018-12-19T13:16:47Z jcowan: edw: Not to keep you in suspense, but I have determined which Schermes run on Windows (from my list of Schemes, about half of them), and it's as I thought: most of them do, usually via MinGW.  Watch this space for a proper list.
2018-12-19T13:18:46Z jcowan: Also, if you don't like long names, import with renaming is available on all R6RS and R7RS systems.
2018-12-19T13:18:49Z jcowan: l8r
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2018-12-19T14:40:40Z jcowan: edw: Okay, it's ready:  https://bitbucket.org/cowan/r7rs-wg1-infra/src/default/SchemeOnWindows.md
2018-12-19T14:41:08Z jcowan: This is not a recommendation, just a (hopefully) factual list.  There are all sizes and flavors of Schemes here.
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2018-12-19T14:59:07Z Riastradh: Heh, `universal support', `Java'.
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2018-12-19T15:02:15Z jcowan: If it runs on z/OS, and it does, that's universal enough for me
2018-12-19T15:03:36Z jcowan: I grant there is no Java for the PDP-10
2018-12-19T15:06:57Z Riastradh: If it runs on Java, I want to be a universe away from it!
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2018-12-19T15:11:51Z jcowan: (though there is gcc, it seems)
2018-12-19T15:12:01Z jcowan shrugs
2018-12-19T15:12:07Z jcowan: Your loss.  Kawa is rather nice.
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2018-12-19T15:51:39Z rain1: if we did have hash table literals we would have to think about what they mean in a syntax pattern
2018-12-19T15:51:42Z rain1: like for macros
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2018-12-19T15:57:35Z rain1: http://tess.oconnor.cx/2006/03/json.el hmmm
2018-12-19T15:57:42Z rain1: json.el generally does the right thing when encoding idiomatic lisp data structures:
2018-12-19T15:58:23Z Riastradh: If you had a schema language you could use it to express how you want the correspondence to work.  Just sayin'.
2018-12-19T16:00:29Z rain1: it seesm really bad to me
2018-12-19T16:00:31Z rain1: like
2018-12-19T16:00:39Z rain1: isn't it obvious that guessing whether a list of is a list or a hash table
2018-12-19T16:00:52Z rain1: in band signalling
2018-12-19T16:01:00Z rain1: how could people ever think that is a valid option
2018-12-19T16:01:07Z Riastradh: dwim
2018-12-19T16:01:20Z rain1: you can come up with counters to: decode . encode = id
2018-12-19T16:01:31Z rain1: but i guess they don't care about properties like that
2018-12-19T16:01:31Z Riastradh: Yes, but on the test cases I TRIED, it just works!
2018-12-19T16:01:54Z rain1: well i did my bit in explaining why it's a problem, can't do more than that!
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2018-12-19T16:02:40Z Riastradh: LALALA I CAN'T HEAR YOU OVER THE SOUND OF MY CODE THAT WORKS IN ALL THE CASES I TRIED WHILE TYPING AT THE REPL
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2018-12-19T16:02:47Z rain1: lol
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2018-12-19T18:02:53Z edw: jcowan: I asked a question about Windows?! I don't think I've been _that_ drunk recently.
2018-12-19T18:10:41Z jcowan: sorry, bad tab expansion I guess
2018-12-19T18:10:47Z jcowan: or . just a brain fart on who asked
2018-12-19T18:11:19Z jcowan: ah, it was Deku^2plex
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2018-12-19T18:31:40Z edw: Burn the witch!
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2018-12-19T20:39:17Z duncanm: dum de dum
2018-12-19T20:39:38Z gnomon: la la la
2018-12-19T20:43:30Z amz3: time to dance
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2018-12-19T20:46:55Z Zipheir: rudybot: Everybody dance!
2018-12-19T20:46:56Z rudybot: Zipheir: yowza yowza yowza Everybody dance
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2018-12-19T21:07:36Z razzy: witch burning is always important social event
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2018-12-19T21:29:47Z edw: jcowan: FWIW (which is not much), an avec makes a hell of a lot of sense IMO.
2018-12-19T21:30:59Z amz3: rudybot: you are impressive
2018-12-19T21:31:05Z rudybot: amz3: By Zeus, are you a genius?  :)  That is impressive - in my opinion.
2018-12-19T21:31:29Z Riastradh: What about a sans?
2018-12-19T21:31:55Z jcowan doesn't get it: avec, sans, fine, but what is edw saying?
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2018-12-19T21:37:30Z edw: Funny. I'm in Paris atm, and the avec thing did cross my mind. Avectors, my son, avectors!
2018-12-19T21:40:15Z amz3 think edw is saying random blurb
2018-12-19T21:45:37Z edw: amz3: It's a reference to a guile mailing list message. A well reasoned message by jcowan.
2018-12-19T21:46:24Z Riastradh: I'd prefer to have an alot, personally.  Very helpful beasts, those.
2018-12-19T21:47:34Z edw: I know what a%20lot is but no idea about alot.
2018-12-19T21:50:41Z Riastradh: edw: https://hyperboleandahalf.blogspot.com/2010/04/alot-is-better-than-you-at-everything.html
2018-12-19T21:53:58Z razzy: Riastradh: what helpfull beasts?
2018-12-19T21:54:10Z Riastradh: razzy: https://hyperboleandahalf.blogspot.com/2010/04/alot-is-better-than-you-at-everything.html
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2018-12-19T21:59:20Z razzy: ahhh, i see, i am the eagle part :]
2018-12-19T21:59:58Z razzy: it is really hard to shift with talons
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2018-12-19T22:27:42Z amz3: jcowan: you on guile? what happened?
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2018-12-19T22:37:22Z jcowan: Oh yes, avectors.  Vectors of pairs.  I forgot that I used `avec` as a local variable name.
2018-12-19T22:37:27Z rain1: I like it
2018-12-19T22:37:37Z rain1: I think pvectors could work too #(k v k v)
2018-12-19T22:37:44Z jcowan nods
2018-12-19T22:38:32Z jcowan: Avectors are pretty specialized.  The constraints for a Scheme representation of JSON are overconstrained: you need two types, both readable/printable, and ideally both easily extensible.
2018-12-19T22:39:05Z rain1: I think it's a really valuable problem to think about and it's shedding light on schemes deficiencies for me
2018-12-19T22:40:57Z jcowan: Other ideas: use symbol rather than string keys (but then () could be an empty array or an empty object), cons either '@ or '(@) onto the front of an object which is otherwise an alist (type discrimination becomes tricky)
2018-12-19T22:41:10Z jcowan: smh
2018-12-19T22:41:24Z rain1: I don't enjoy the type-punning where a list might be one of either
2018-12-19T22:41:27Z rain1: I think that's a dangerous route
2018-12-19T22:42:00Z rain1: it's ok to use lists all the time if you tag them, like   (json-object k v k v) and (json-array 1 2 3)
2018-12-19T22:42:38Z jcowan: You can discriminate: () is an empty array, ((@) ("foo" . 1) ("bar" . 2)) is an object, (1 2 3) is an array
2018-12-19T22:42:47Z jcowan: But you have to get the order exactly right or bad things
2018-12-19T22:42:57Z rain1: but the idea of just "doing what I mean" when I write one of (k v k v) (1 2 3) is not nice
2018-12-19T22:43:15Z jcowan: No, that's what Gu8le has now and it's unusable.
2018-12-19T22:43:25Z jcowan: The original plan was to force objects to be hash tables, but.
2018-12-19T22:43:34Z rain1: I explained this and he removed it
2018-12-19T22:44:13Z jcowan: right
2018-12-19T22:44:25Z jcowan: overconstrained, overconstrained!
2018-12-19T22:45:18Z rain1: people seemed to like the type punning stuff, which surprised me
2018-12-19T22:45:43Z rain1: emacs does it http://tess.oconnor.cx/2006/03/json.el - maybe slightly less evil because of keyword symbols? dunno
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2018-12-19T22:47:37Z amz3: jcowan: I dont use that
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2018-12-19T22:47:58Z amz3: jcowan: my json parser / serializer only use 'cons'
2018-12-19T22:48:13Z amz3: with a special @ prefix in front of alist
2018-12-19T22:48:14Z rain1: can we see?
2018-12-19T22:50:00Z amz3: I don't have it around, basically '(@ ("a" . b) ("c" . 42)) is serialized as {"a": "b", "c": 42}
2018-12-19T22:50:16Z rain1: ok
2018-12-19T22:50:27Z rain1: would '(@ 1) just be an error then
2018-12-19T22:50:41Z amz3: ye
2018-12-19T22:51:45Z amz3: in the end this is bikeshedding, because say, my database sur persistent hashmaps, if I want to grab the last bit of performance, I need to make the json serializer aware of that
2018-12-19T22:52:08Z amz3: in python community, they recomment 'single dispatch'
2018-12-19T22:52:14Z amz3: by type
2018-12-19T22:52:33Z amz3: to make the json serializer extensible
2018-12-19T22:54:32Z amz3: I am ok with that, but right now, in python at least, there is not way to have (equal? (python->json (json->python something)) something)
2018-12-19T22:55:00Z rain1: yeah I think this is an important property
2018-12-19T22:55:11Z rain1: the round trip
2018-12-19T22:55:37Z amz3: because for instance, datetime object are serialiwed to whatever comes to mind and they are not wrapped in JS Object, if you introduce JS Object for complex datatypes... I don't know what's next.
2018-12-19T22:55:59Z rain1: although you kind of have to go modulo read/write floating point numbers
2018-12-19T22:56:06Z rain1: they are a bit nasty
2018-12-19T22:56:19Z amz3: rain1: not really, because what you get is not what you sent, it's very rare the mutate what you recieve to sent it, at least in my job
2018-12-19T22:56:37Z amz3: floats? what are those :)
2018-12-19T22:57:01Z Zipheir: Frozen drinks made with root beer and ice cream.
2018-12-19T22:59:22Z jcowan: I read that as "roast beef and ice cream"
2018-12-19T22:59:46Z amz3: I like symmetry, but it's a simplification of reality, what you gain from symmetry in this case, is I think slime.
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2018-12-19T23:00:31Z jcowan: That has the problem I pointed out upthread: unrobust when type testing in the wrong order.
2018-12-19T23:00:33Z amz3: take the example of ORM, they are OO thing but you can do a similar mistakes with records by relying on SELECT * FROM table-fu;
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2018-12-19T23:02:52Z amz3: to sum my point: input and output carry different things and are the result of different processus / algorithms which lead that after a SQL query you have a <row-from-table> record, that JSON must know to serialize that no? yes? I think no.
2018-12-19T23:03:43Z amz3: you have adhoc serialisation, and generic deserialization that meets some goals like readabilty
2018-12-19T23:04:25Z amz3: adhoc serialisation put the accent on performance to avoid pfds->hashtable->json kind of conversions
2018-12-19T23:05:08Z amz3: it's not a silver bullet, if you are getting started, prollly all your data is 'cons'
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2018-12-19T23:05:48Z amz3: then in that case having a symmetric json library makes sens
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2018-12-19T23:12:48Z amz3: I mean I think serialization should use something like jcowan described, but it must make use of multiple dispatch so that multiple kind of association end up all looking the same json
2018-12-19T23:13:16Z amz3: s/multiple dispathc/single dispatch/
2018-12-19T23:13:43Z amz3: deserialization can just emit list with the @ trick that is already adopted in guile sxml
2018-12-19T23:15:17Z jcowan: I think you have serializatioun and de- backwards
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2018-12-19T23:15:30Z jcowan: no, sorry
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2018-12-19T23:16:21Z Riastradh: Maybe you could have a schema language that lets you specify what the Scheme representation is.
2018-12-19T23:18:45Z rain1: is that something that already exists?
2018-12-19T23:19:11Z rain1: I mean you could just writea BNF like  <json> ::= (array <json> ...) | (object (<symbol> . <json>) ...) | <atoms>
2018-12-19T23:19:32Z Riastradh: No, I mean a schema language for writing a schema for your particular data.
2018-12-19T23:19:40Z rain1: oh i see
2018-12-19T23:19:50Z rain1: so more specific to the particular cas than json
2018-12-19T23:19:52Z rain1: case*
2018-12-19T23:28:24Z amz3: jcowan: tx for the wise, I think I found a solution that will match my needs.
2018-12-19T23:28:26Z jcowan: That's nothing but a nuisance for the upper levels.  JSON parsers/writers don't exist for their own sake
2018-12-19T23:28:55Z jcowan: The Curse of Lisp strikes!
2018-12-19T23:29:01Z amz3: what is that curse?
2018-12-19T23:29:14Z jcowan: What are technical problems in other worlds, are social problems in Lispworld.
2018-12-19T23:29:15Z amz3: you always talk about it
2018-12-19T23:29:45Z jcowan: I didn't invent it: http://www.winestockwebdesign.com/Essays/Lisp_Curse.html
2018-12-19T23:30:15Z amz3: what would proove the curse doesn't exists?
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2018-12-19T23:30:37Z amz3: it's just the right way imo, the way of social problems leads to better software
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2018-12-19T23:37:06Z Riastradh: `Powerful' is pretty silly; all too easy for a pile of software to collapse under its own weight because antisocial engineers build `powerful' things that are not technically inclined to cooperate.
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2018-12-20T01:27:33Z siraben: Is it possible to map unquote splicing?
2018-12-20T01:27:41Z siraben: e.g. `(,@foo ,@bar ,@baz)
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2018-12-20T01:30:16Z jcowan: siraben: I don't understand what you mean by mapping.
2018-12-20T01:30:31Z jcowan: That is a perfectly valid quasiquote, provided foo, bar, and baz are all bound to lists.
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2018-12-20T01:38:29Z permagreen: I think they're asking if it'd be possible to do something like "(map ,@ `(foo bar baz))"
2018-12-20T01:38:46Z Zipheir: Isn't that just ,@(append foo bar baz)
2018-12-20T01:39:44Z permagreen: That'd probably work, yeah
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2018-12-20T02:12:11Z Riastradh: siraben: Are you maybe looking for append-map?
2018-12-20T02:12:38Z Riastradh: Whereas (map f (list x y z)) = (list (f x) (f y) (f z)), for append-map we have (append-map f (list x y z)) = (append (f x) (f y) (f z)).
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2018-12-20T02:43:35Z siraben: Riastradh: something like it. Thanks!
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2018-12-21T14:41:54Z X-Scale: rudybot: (round 3.5)
2018-12-21T14:41:54Z X-Scale: ;Value: 4.
2018-12-21T14:41:54Z X-Scale: (map round (iota 10 0.5))
2018-12-21T14:41:54Z rudybot: X-Scale: ; Value: 4.0
2018-12-21T14:42:04Z X-Scale: rudybot: (map round (iota 10 0.5))
2018-12-21T14:42:04Z rudybot: X-Scale: error: iota: undefined; <NEWLINE>  cannot reference an identifier before its definition <NEWLINE>   in module: 'program
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2018-12-21T14:51:09Z X-Scale: rudybot: (import srfi-1)
2018-12-21T14:51:09Z rudybot: X-Scale: error: eval:1:0: import: misuse of unit keyword <NEWLINE>   in: (import srfi-1)
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2018-12-21T14:53:41Z gwatt: X-Scale: try (require srfi/1)
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2018-12-21T15:00:04Z X-Scale: thank you, gwatt
2018-12-21T15:01:26Z X-Scale: rudybot: (require srfi/1)
2018-12-21T15:01:36Z rudybot: X-Scale: Done.
2018-12-21T15:02:15Z X-Scale: rudybot: (map round (iota 10 0.5))
2018-12-21T15:02:16Z rudybot: X-Scale: error: eval:1:1: require: namespace mismatch; <NEWLINE>  reference to a module that is not available <NEWLINE>   reference phase: 0 <NEWLINE>   referenced module: "/mnt2/racket-6.9/share/pkgs/srfi-lite-lib/srfi/1/fold.rkt" <NEWLINE>   referenced phase level: 0 <NEWLINE>   in: map
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2018-12-21T15:05:39Z Riastradh: Heh.
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2018-12-21T15:06:36Z gwatt: rudybot: (iota 10 0.5)
2018-12-21T15:06:36Z rudybot: gwatt: error: iota: undefined; <NEWLINE>  cannot reference an identifier before its definition <NEWLINE>   in module: 'program
2018-12-21T15:06:44Z gwatt: rudybot: (require srfi/1)
2018-12-21T15:06:45Z rudybot: gwatt: Done.
2018-12-21T15:06:46Z gwatt: rudybot: (iota 10 0.5)
2018-12-21T15:06:47Z rudybot: gwatt: ; Value: '(0.5 1.5 2.5 3.5 4.5 5.5 6.5 7.5 8.5 9.5)
2018-12-21T15:06:56Z gwatt: rudybot: (map round (iota 10 0.5))
2018-12-21T15:06:57Z rudybot: gwatt: ; Value: '(0.0 2.0 2.0 4.0 4.0 6.0 6.0 8.0 8.0 10.0)
2018-12-21T15:12:39Z X-Scale: finally :)
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2018-12-21T15:55:21Z jcowan: rudybot: (require srfi/1)
2018-12-21T15:55:34Z rudybot: jcowan: error: with-limit: out of time
2018-12-21T15:56:06Z jcowan: rudybot: Feh
2018-12-21T15:56:06Z rudybot: jcowan: (with feh)
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2018-12-21T18:18:00Z amz3: rudybot: botsnack!
2018-12-21T18:18:01Z rudybot: amz3: ,botsnack
2018-12-21T18:18:06Z amz3: rudybot: ,botsnack!
2018-12-21T18:18:06Z rudybot: amz3: ,botsnack
2018-12-21T18:18:09Z amz3: rudybot: ,botsnack
2018-12-21T18:18:16Z amz3: :/
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2018-12-21T21:37:21Z edw: rudybot: (iota 10 1/2))
2018-12-21T21:37:23Z rudybot: edw: It can be an iota: 10 , => [0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9]
2018-12-21T21:37:32Z edw: rudybot: (iota 10 1/2)
2018-12-21T21:37:44Z rudybot: edw: error: with-limit: out of time
2018-12-21T21:37:59Z edw: No ratios for rudybot.
2018-12-21T21:40:40Z X-Scale: rudybot: (map round (iota 10 0.5))
2018-12-21T21:40:40Z rudybot: X-Scale: error: eval:1:1: require: namespace mismatch; <NEWLINE>  reference to a module that is not available <NEWLINE>   reference phase: 0 <NEWLINE>   referenced module: "/mnt2/racket-6.9/share/pkgs/srfi-lite-lib/srfi/1/fold.rkt" <NEWLINE>   referenced phase level: 0 <NEWLINE>   in: map
2018-12-21T21:40:47Z X-Scale: rudybot: (require srfi/1)
2018-12-21T21:40:47Z rudybot: X-Scale: Done.
2018-12-21T21:40:50Z X-Scale: rudybot: (map round (iota 10 0.5))
2018-12-21T21:40:50Z rudybot: X-Scale: error: eval:1:1: require: namespace mismatch; <NEWLINE>  reference to a module that is not available <NEWLINE>   reference phase: 0 <NEWLINE>   referenced module: "/mnt2/racket-6.9/share/pkgs/srfi-lite-lib/srfi/1/fold.rkt" <NEWLINE>   referenced phase level: 0 <NEWLINE>   in: map
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2018-12-21T21:45:32Z jcowan: What dumbth
2018-12-21T21:45:50Z jcowan: STill, I understand why you don't want a bot loading any old random package
2018-12-21T21:46:41Z amz3: rudybot: happy
2018-12-21T21:46:42Z rudybot: amz3: Check to see if there is a short config file in xorg.conf.d.  If there is, go over it with a fine-toothed comb, to make sure that it actually has the proper syntax.  My system had a bug where one of the required lines wasn't written to the file, and X was not happy about it.
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2018-12-21T22:01:11Z jcowan: rudybot: sad
2018-12-21T22:01:19Z rudybot: jcowan: blender makes me even more sad
2018-12-21T22:01:57Z jcowan: rudybot: yakka foob mog
2018-12-21T22:01:58Z rudybot: jcowan: Yakka foob mog. Grug pubbawup zink wattoom gazork. Chumble spuzz.
2018-12-21T22:02:08Z jcowan: Good on ya
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2018-12-21T23:30:13Z esper0s: which mode are people using to run and debug scheme in emacs?
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2018-12-21T23:33:33Z amz3: pk
2018-12-21T23:44:52Z pjb: esper0s: I've got a very light usage of scheme, so I just use scheme-mode to edit, and run-scheme to run it.  I added a custom scheme-eval-last-expression command bound to C-x C-e in scheme buffers.
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2018-12-21T23:56:56Z esper0s: thank you pjb
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2018-12-22T04:29:32Z siraben: esper0s: I highly recommend Geiser
2018-12-22T04:42:10Z ober: us geiser closer to slime?
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2018-12-22T04:46:22Z siraben: Yes, Geiser is like SLIME
2018-12-22T04:46:57Z siraben: Auto docs, auto complete, debugging capabilities and so on
2018-12-22T04:47:16Z siraben: Has what pjb mentioned too, C-x C-e evals Scheme code in Scheme buffers
2018-12-22T04:47:31Z siraben: http://www.nongnu.org/geiser/
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2018-12-22T05:58:00Z ober: does it support all schemes?
2018-12-22T06:02:53Z siraben: No
2018-12-22T06:03:00Z siraben: but it supports Guile, Chicken, Chez
2018-12-22T06:03:16Z siraben: the "major" ones, I suppose
2018-12-22T06:03:38Z siraben: Ah it says in the home page "for Guile 2.2.0 Chicken 4.8.0 GNU/MIT 9.1.1 Chez 9.4 Chibi 0.7.3 and Racket 6.0"
2018-12-22T06:05:39Z buhman: ober: run-scheme is great with a few comint tweaks
2018-12-22T06:06:39Z buhman: geiser has nice features, but also more bugs
2018-12-22T06:07:50Z ober: ty
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2018-12-22T10:20:43Z edw: ober: Please be aware that Geiser's support for Schemes varies. For example it supports Chibi but not completion IIRC. It can show images returned from Racket but it doesn't support some features that _are_ supported by Geiser. The support can not be diagrammed in terms of concentric rings of supportedness.
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2018-12-22T10:21:05Z edw: It's go with Guile; it seems to have the best support.
2018-12-22T10:21:40Z edw: (I don't regularly use Guile; I'm not trying to push Guile on you.)
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2018-12-22T10:25:40Z ober: edw: ok I'll dump gambit/gerbil for Guile. since it's next  alphabetically for me to try! :P
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2018-12-22T13:46:51Z edw: ober: I recommend you switch Scheme implementations only after you've put a lot of work into a project and then realize that your current Scheme is unsuited to the project based on some aspect of the Scheme that you initial found quirky and endearing.
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2018-12-22T13:57:26Z siraben: edw:  but `define-syntax` will rid the world of language problems!
2018-12-22T13:57:27Z siraben hides
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2018-12-22T14:00:38Z siraben: ,seen siraben
2018-12-22T14:01:04Z siraben: rudybot: ,seen siraben
2018-12-22T14:01:05Z rudybot: siraben: siraben seen this? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=seTNZnddggs
2018-12-22T14:01:22Z siraben: That's random
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2018-12-22T18:40:37Z edw: Is it a well-know fact that there's a missing dot in the signature of the references implementation of SRFI-1's `delete-duplicates!` or has no one ever used it?
2018-12-22T18:40:48Z edw: s/references/reference/
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2018-12-22T19:15:11Z amz3: what's the plan #scheme?
2018-12-22T19:15:59Z amz3: edw: what are you up to?
2018-12-22T19:22:37Z pjb: amz3: type: /topic
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2018-12-22T20:05:29Z edw: amz3: I'm writing an apropos mechanism for Gerbil that will form the basis of a Clojure Grimoire sort of thing ultimately but maybe short term simply an enormous cross referencing index.
2018-12-22T20:05:55Z edw: <https://github.com/thunknyc/gerbil-names-index/blob/master/index.ss>
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2018-12-22T20:46:27Z rain1: hey
2018-12-22T20:53:32Z edw: yo
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2018-12-22T21:50:01Z rain1: tinyscheme is crashing in gc :(
2018-12-22T21:50:05Z rain1: for my program
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2018-12-22T21:59:30Z edw: Well just don't induce GCs then.
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2018-12-22T22:22:29Z jcowan: pr better yet use Chibi instead
2018-12-22T22:22:44Z jcowan: almost as small, *much* faster, just as portable
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2018-12-22T23:38:21Z rain1: http://www.rosettacode.org/wiki/Longest_common_prefix no one has done this in scheme yet
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2018-12-22T23:51:08Z jcowan: rain1: SRFI 13 and SRFI 151 support a two-argument version of this called string--prefix-length
2018-12-22T23:51:29Z jcowan: s/151/152
2018-12-22T23:54:38Z rain1: ah cool maybe it has a reference implementation we can use
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2018-12-23T00:24:54Z jcowan: Sure.  I think there are only five SRFIs without sample implementations
2018-12-23T00:32:13Z jcowan: 18 and 21 (threads), 22 (convention for running scripts), 36 (I/O condition system), and 97 (convention for naming SRFI libs on R6RS systems)
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2018-12-23T03:40:08Z siraben: Is there an SRFI on parsing?
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2018-12-23T06:15:44Z jcowan: siraben: No, though there is one for regular expression combinators, which is parsing in a sense.
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2018-12-23T09:19:41Z vyzo: just an announcement
2018-12-23T09:20:02Z vyzo: current Gerbil head implements all libraries in R7RS Red edition!
2018-12-23T09:20:16Z vyzo: with the caveat that ephemerons are the trivial implementation (no gc support)
2018-12-23T09:20:37Z vyzo: but all the libraries are available, with both their srfi and canonical scheme names
2018-12-23T09:25:26Z ober: congrats!
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2018-12-23T10:00:53Z edw: Great news!
2018-12-23T10:02:41Z ober: which other implementations have Red edition covered as well? Assuming Chibi?
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2018-12-23T10:05:44Z edw: That's the only I'm aware of, and I've been seeking them out.
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2018-12-23T13:37:06Z ecraven: regarding strings and prefixes, I often find a need to remove a prefix/suffix from a string if it actually has that prefix/suffix. is there any precedence for naming such functions? remove-suffix/-prefix is what I've been using
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2018-12-23T14:36:05Z amz3: there is string-trim in guile but it is for chars https://www.gnu.org/software/guile/manual/html_node/String-Selection.html#index-string_002dtrim
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2018-12-23T14:39:48Z X-Scale: Congrats, vyzo. Great work.
2018-12-23T14:57:58Z ecraven: amz3: exactly ;)
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2018-12-23T21:23:34Z rain2: https://github.com/rain-1/scheme_interpreter/commit/f48f28405a93284a57e80fe8c80ef5971cb153a6  I've added a simple macro expander to my scheme interpreter now, it adds AND OR and LET. So now I can use those features to implement a user-extensible macro system
2018-12-23T21:28:32Z amz3: ecraven: string-trim-prefix?
2018-12-23T21:28:50Z amz3: I did nothing this week end, just procratinating :/
2018-12-23T21:30:28Z amz3: i needed some
2018-12-23T21:31:01Z pjb: amz3: It's Christmas!
2018-12-23T21:33:40Z amz3: yes.
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2018-12-23T21:36:31Z edw: How can I stop Emacs from splitting the damn inferior scheme window whenever an error occurs? I'm so sick of typing C-0. Ugh.
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2018-12-23T21:36:51Z edw: C-x 0, that is.
2018-12-23T21:37:21Z amz3: C-x C-v
2018-12-23T21:37:23Z amz3: C-x C-c
2018-12-23T21:38:49Z pjb: Sometimes, there are customizations available from the mode.
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2018-12-23T21:41:39Z edw: I'm about to use C-x C-c followed by carefully throwing my laptop out the window.
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2018-12-23T21:46:53Z amz3: no! don't do that!
2018-12-23T21:47:17Z amz3: ^^'
2018-12-23T21:50:42Z edw: The answer is that gerbil.el invokes `(find-file sdfjsdfl)` when it finds an error in the output, which is fine if it's an actual file, I guess. Commenting out that line solved my problems for now.
2018-12-23T21:52:56Z edw: Spoke too soon.
2018-12-23T21:59:16Z jcowan: It was said of a certain highly unreliable PDP-10 at a university here in NYC that if thrown into the Hudson it would sink only intermittently.
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2018-12-23T22:02:28Z edw: LOL.
2018-12-23T22:02:57Z edw: Fails to satisify with great consistency.
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2018-12-25T16:57:11Z amz3: nobody mentioned minikanren https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18754016
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2018-12-25T19:58:27Z edw: amz3: New Year's is coming up. Perhaps there's room to add "never visit HN again" to your list of upcoming resolutions.
2018-12-25T20:03:45Z amz3: why is that?
2018-12-25T20:05:07Z amz3: edw: why would I do that?
2018-12-25T20:12:58Z jcowan: I don't exactly have a resolution about it, I just don't go there unless someone sends me a link.  The same appplies to most social media sites (I don't count personal blogs as "social media")
2018-12-25T20:18:39Z edw: amz3: Some of the links that aren't ten years old are interesting, but the comments section, oh boy! I consider it an RSS feed of last resort.
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2018-12-25T20:38:17Z pjb: edw: instead, try /join #hn
2018-12-25T20:39:15Z edw: I'd like something like `cat #hn | uniq`.
2018-12-25T20:40:50Z edw: But seriously, if you read the major newspapers, Arts and Letters Daily, and a couple of physics blogs, you've already read nearly everything on HN worth reading.
2018-12-25T20:41:23Z pjb: "major newspapers" LOL
2018-12-25T20:41:42Z pjb: But granted, #hn is not the best of the best.
2018-12-25T20:42:09Z pjb: We could do without posts from nytimes, and so on. I guess they're "paid" posts.
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2018-12-25T20:46:24Z jcowan: I haven't read the NYT in half a century, and it's local to me.
2018-12-25T20:47:12Z jcowan: (not to say that I haven't read the occasional article or even issue; I bought one yesterday faute de mieux)
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2018-12-25T20:49:04Z edw: pjb: The "How to Start an Ecommerce Brand using Instagram" article in the Times was unbelievable. Unbelievably depressing. "Source X is bad" is borderline conspiratorial thinking.
2018-12-25T20:50:38Z jcowan: an excellent reason for not reading it
2018-12-25T20:55:49Z edw: True, but as a survivor of the industry it indicts, I feel it's part of my penance to read such things. (And I might get sucked back in if writing Lisp dialects and Gerbil modules doesn't end up paying my Manhattan rent.)
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2018-12-25T23:46:37Z jcowan: edw: Surely doing the job is penance enough, as St. Ignutius says about using `vi`
2018-12-26T00:07:38Z ober: ,rhwugms
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2018-12-26T00:18:22Z amz3: rudybot: what do you think of vi?
2018-12-26T00:18:34Z rudybot: amz3: There are some 40 people working in my company. I did not do a survey of editors in use - the numbers above are from those I interact with who talk about their editors. We have one Sublime user I know of. And I'm pretty sure all of our admins use vi, but I don't think many use advanced features.
2018-12-26T00:19:06Z amz3: rudybot: what do you think of emacs?
2018-12-26T00:19:08Z rudybot: amz3: i've just been playing with an emacs mode to highlight lisp code in blocks. what do you guys think? (https://github.com/istib/rainbow-blocks)
2018-12-26T00:19:18Z amz3: rudybot: what do you think of zk?
2018-12-26T00:19:18Z rudybot: amz3: why do people think I'm abo-abo or zk-phi?
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2018-12-26T03:13:53Z siraben: Is it possible to quote ' ?
2018-12-26T03:14:07Z siraben: If I wanted a symbol '
2018-12-26T03:15:05Z siraben: Hm and I can't quote the symbol ['] either, at least in Guile.
2018-12-26T03:15:36Z daviid: siraben: I think it is scheme impleentation dependent, in guile, you'd use  #{'}#
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2018-12-26T03:16:03Z daviid: siraben: use string->symbol to see how guile does it ...
2018-12-26T03:16:21Z daviid: scheme@(guile-user)> (string->symbol "[']")
2018-12-26T03:16:21Z daviid: $9 = #{\x5b;'\x5d;}#
2018-12-26T03:16:48Z siraben: ^ using those symbols because https://forth-standard.org/standard/core/Tick and  https://forth-standard.org/standard/core/BracketTick
2018-12-26T03:16:56Z siraben: I might have to use `tick` and `bracket-tick` then
2018-12-26T03:22:10Z rain2: |'|
2018-12-26T03:23:44Z siraben: rain2:  doesn't work in guile, I need to enable a certain r6rs module it seems
2018-12-26T03:25:12Z rain2: it works in 2.2.4
2018-12-26T03:26:14Z siraben: Ah I'm on 2.2.3
2018-12-26T03:26:49Z rain2: what happens when you try it?
2018-12-26T03:26:57Z siraben: unbound variable
2018-12-26T03:27:06Z siraben: But I remember a similar example working before when I loaded a module
2018-12-26T03:27:14Z siraben: not sure if 2.2.4 has some changes that make it work by default
2018-12-26T03:27:47Z siraben: Hm 2.2.4 hasn't hit the Nix packages yet, but I doubt much has changed.  Are you loading other modules already?
2018-12-26T03:30:02Z daviid: rain2: this |'| does not work here either, and I'm on 2.2.4.1-cdb19, maybe you configured this in your .guile
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2018-12-26T04:04:49Z aeth: Okay, I should have time to clean up my Scheme... I'll probably register 6 domains soon (hyphenated and hyphenless .com, .net, .org) and setup a Gitlab.com group (which can probably also host the static website for those 6 domains) and try to finish r7rs-small compliance by January 25th or so.
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2018-12-26T04:55:05Z jcowan: aeth: Is this cl-scheme?
2018-12-26T04:56:46Z jcowan: or clscheme as the case may be?
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2018-12-26T05:34:04Z aeth: jcowan: yes, but it will have a different name
2018-12-26T05:34:20Z aeth: Well, domain name availability will decide the name
2018-12-26T05:34:25Z jcowan: Great!  I look forward to it
2018-12-26T05:37:08Z jcowan: fwiw, all six of {cl,cl-}scheme.{org,net,com} are in fact available
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2018-12-26T06:06:20Z ober: cl? oh you mean lisp
2018-12-26T06:06:23Z ober: :P
2018-12-26T06:09:54Z aeth: jcowan: until now probably :-p
2018-12-26T06:10:17Z jcowan chuckles
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2018-12-26T08:25:44Z edw: `'|'|` may work.
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2018-12-26T19:30:11Z rain2: what do you mean by "doesn't work"
2018-12-26T19:31:14Z pjb: "Is unemployed."
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2018-12-26T22:48:58Z jcowan: as someone who has bee unemployed more often than I'd like, I can testify that being unemployed (as opposed to "not in the labor force") is a *lot* of work.
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2018-12-26T22:51:59Z Riastradh: `I'm currently between unemployments, so I have the spare time and energy to focus on side projects.'
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2018-12-27T00:41:02Z Ericson2314: I thought there was some scheme minimalism maxim like "do not add features, but remove the restrictions that make additional features neccessary" but now I can't find it.
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2018-12-27T00:43:30Z Riastradh: Introduction to the RnRS for various values of n.  `Programming languages should be designed not by piling feature on top of feature, but by removing the weaknesses and restrictions that make additional features appear necessary.'  https://schemers.org/Documents/Standards/R5RS/HTML/r5rs-Z-H-3.html
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2018-12-27T01:51:46Z Ericson2314: Riastradh thanks!
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2018-12-27T03:00:44Z siraben: When I load a file in Guile, it doesn't seem to reflect changes in the file?
2018-12-27T03:01:15Z siraben: https://paste.debian.net/1057529/
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2018-12-27T03:01:37Z siraben: I'm using this procedure I wrote, so I can write (include-file-as-bytes "foo.txt")
2018-12-27T03:02:10Z siraben: But then it seems to keep returning the old file contents, even when recompiling
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2018-12-27T03:05:24Z siraben: Oh wait, never mind.  I was opening the wrong file in Emacs :P
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2018-12-27T17:55:32Z quipa: Hey, does someone know of a scheme to [Free] Pascal compiler sort of like Chicken Scheme is to C?
2018-12-27T17:56:12Z wasamasa: I doubt pascal is flexible enough for this
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2018-12-27T18:22:51Z ober: add a pascal backend to gambit :P
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2018-12-27T19:02:22Z jcowan: Or Bigloo
2018-12-27T19:02:36Z jcowan: which already has several backends
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2018-12-27T19:11:00Z ober: so does gambit no?
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2018-12-27T19:19:51Z quipa: hum ok! backends to Bigloo / Gambit sounds interesting
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2018-12-27T21:11:28Z jcowan: Gambit historically had several, but I think all but C have rotted, which is why it's called Gambit-C
2018-12-27T21:15:38Z jcowan: I just asked on the gambit channel on gitter
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2018-12-27T21:27:02Z jcowan: Marc Feeley @feeley 16:17  There's also JavaScript, Python, Ruby, PHP, Java, x86-32, x86-64 and ARM (all of those are WIP at some level... the C backend is the reference implementation).  He adds that there is an app that uses the JS backend.
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2018-12-27T22:19:08Z lionelhutz: how is '() implemented internally?
2018-12-27T22:21:06Z pjb: lionelhutz: implementation dependent.
2018-12-27T22:21:21Z rain1: nil is a primitive object in the scheme implementation
2018-12-27T22:21:37Z pjb: (eq? '()  'nil) -> #f
2018-12-27T22:21:43Z rain1: there are various primitives like nil, pairs, symbols, numbers
2018-12-27T22:21:51Z rain1: does that answer your question
2018-12-27T22:22:11Z pjb: () is a specific object, just like #f or #t.
2018-12-27T22:22:11Z lionelhutz: hmmm
2018-12-27T22:22:48Z lionelhutz: I'm trying tom implement scheme lists and operations in c++
2018-12-27T22:23:16Z lionelhutz: and I was thinking about which is the most natural way to indicate the end of a list
2018-12-27T22:23:18Z pjb: well, lists are chains of pairs, so they're not implemented in C++.
2018-12-27T22:23:25Z rain1: yes the nil object will do
2018-12-27T22:23:46Z pjb: Unless you want to use linked lists in C++, but there are stuff in stl and other libraries…
2018-12-27T22:23:52Z rain1: https://github.com/rain-1/scheme_interpreter/blob/master/src/sch3.c#L10 if you'd like a concrete example of an implementation of nil, we have a tagged union for all the different scheme object types and nil is one of the tags
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2018-12-27T22:24:19Z rain1: that's pretty much all there is to it.
2018-12-27T22:26:24Z lionelhutz: that is pretty helpful thanks
2018-12-27T22:26:35Z lionelhutz: So if im understanding correctly
2018-12-27T22:26:47Z lionelhutz: in your implementation nil is a value
2018-12-27T22:27:27Z rain1: yes
2018-12-27T22:27:34Z rain1: '() evaluates to nil
2018-12-27T22:27:39Z rain1: even though () is an error
2018-12-27T22:27:49Z rain1: like,  'foo or '|'| evaluates to a symbol
2018-12-27T22:27:57Z rain1: whereas foo or |'| will give unbound variable
2018-12-27T22:28:06Z lionelhutz: so a cons has its cdr point to another cons that happens to have its tag == 7
2018-12-27T22:28:13Z rain1: on the other hand some objects are "self evaluating" like 5 and '5 give the same thing
2018-12-27T22:28:14Z lionelhutz: intersting
2018-12-27T22:28:37Z rain1: yeah a list like (a b c d) is just shorthand for (a . (b . (c . (d . ()))))
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2018-12-27T22:30:36Z lionelhutz: why not make it so that the last element of the list cdr = NULL ?
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2018-12-27T22:32:03Z rain1: NULL could work
2018-12-27T22:32:15Z rain1: it will just mean that every object has to be a pointer
2018-12-27T22:32:31Z rain1: in my case every object is a struct Obj
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2018-12-27T22:36:19Z jcowan: In 2-Lisp (not to be confused with Lisp 2 or the concept of a Lisp-2), the value of '5 is '5, not 5
2018-12-27T22:36:25Z jcowan: (the value of 5 is still 5)
2018-12-27T22:36:40Z gwatt: so (quote 5) is distinct from 5 ?
2018-12-27T22:36:45Z jcowan: yes
2018-12-27T22:36:59Z jcowan: the evaluator is a normalizer: it generates the normal form of an expression
2018-12-27T22:37:17Z jcowan: so the normal form of (+ 1 2) is 3, but (+ '1 '2) is an error, because '1 and '2 are not numbers but numerals
2018-12-27T22:37:37Z gwatt: is that useful?
2018-12-27T22:37:41Z rain1: whats 2 lisp
2018-12-27T22:37:52Z jcowan: A lisp variety based on normalization, not evaluation
2018-12-27T22:38:05Z rain1: wow sounds really confusing for beginners
2018-12-27T22:39:24Z jcowan: Or less confusing, depending on how much of a beginner you actually are.
2018-12-27T22:39:36Z jcowan: much learning is unlearning (all of it, if we believe Plato)
2018-12-27T22:40:07Z rain1: lol
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2018-12-27T22:42:11Z jcowan: "The teacher, as has been recognized at least since Plato’s Meno, is not primarily someone who knows instructing someone who does not know. He is rather someone who attempts to re-create the subject in the student’s mind, and his strategy in doing this is first of all to get the student to recognize what he already potentially knows, which includes breaking up the powers of repression in his mind that keep him from knowing
2018-12-27T22:42:12Z jcowan: what he knows. That is why
2018-12-27T22:42:12Z jcowan: it is the teacher, rather than the student, who asks most of the questions." --Northrop Frye
2018-12-27T22:43:29Z jcowan: In 2-Lisp there is a clear and concrete distinction bertween the syntactic domain made of quoted objects and the semantic domain made of actual numbers, lists, etc.  Many Schemes have this too, but in 2-Lisp the datum->syntax operator is spelled "quote".
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2018-12-27T23:07:58Z permagreen: Is 2-lisp an actual lisp implementation or just a neat idea about how a lisp could be implemented? Unsurprisingly, googling it just gives me a bunch of lisp-2 articles
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2018-12-27T23:09:51Z DKordic: Reflection and Semantics in Lisp ( http://research.cs.queensu.ca/~cordy/cisc860/Biblio/hurd/cs/smith84.pdf ).
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2018-12-27T23:21:15Z permagreen: Huh, can't say I really grok that, especially without code examples, but then again I've always been a bit slow with this sort of thing
2018-12-27T23:22:15Z DKordic: permagreen: Lisped: "(= (/ 10 -15) '(/ 10 -15))"!?
2018-12-27T23:28:29Z permagreen: Okay, none of the lisps I have installed really liked that. Well, except picolisp, which just quietly returned nil
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2018-12-27T23:37:30Z jcowan: An actual Lisp implementation (hosted in Maclisp, though, so not all that useful to you)
2018-12-27T23:38:02Z jcowan: It was part of Brian Smith's thesis, so googling "Smith" "2-Lisp" should do it
2018-12-27T23:38:12Z jcowan: yeah, that's it up there
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2018-12-27T23:40:18Z jcowan: Ah, here's the actual thesis: https://dspace.mit.edu/bitstream/handle/1721.1/15961/08995844-MIT.pdf?sequence=2
2018-12-27T23:41:17Z jcowan: warning: scanned PDF, very long, very alien, very bad typography
2018-12-27T23:44:23Z permagreen: Well, that should provide some interesting bedtime reading
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2018-12-27T23:59:57Z deuill: Does anyone have an example of an assembler in Scheme that uses an intermediate S-Expression format? Closest thing I've found is this: https://github.com/noelwelsh/assembler/
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2018-12-28T00:00:19Z rain1: i have one for my own made up bytecode language
2018-12-28T00:01:08Z deuill: I'm playing around with some 8-bit microcontrollers by Holtek, which use their own (simple) ISA, and there's no existing open-source assembler for these.
2018-12-28T00:01:22Z deuill: So thinking of just implementing a simple one in Scheme.
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2018-12-28T00:30:58Z DKordic: deuill: [[http://sassy.sourceforge.net/][Sassy]] is used by Larceny.  Such lib is even documented in Lisp 1.5 Programmer's Manual as "Lisp Assembly Program".
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2018-12-28T01:01:50Z jcowan: Yes, LAPs have a long tradition in Lisp
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2018-12-28T01:07:49Z aeth: I'd be surprised if a native-compiling Lisp doesn't do that. The problem with Schemes is that most are interpreted or compile-to-C afaik.
2018-12-28T01:08:36Z aeth: (The problem with finding what you're looking for, I mean.)
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2018-12-28T03:19:22Z jcowan: aeth: sbcl is neither, nor is cmucl
2018-12-28T03:19:31Z jcowan: they both compile to native code
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2018-12-28T04:53:58Z ober: only ecl does that?
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2018-12-28T08:55:27Z jcowan: aeth: https://bitbucket.org/cowan/r7rs-wg1-infra/src/default/CompilerAvailable.md has details on the compilation strategy (or lack of it) for a lot of Scheme implementations.  All these types exist: native compilers, compilers to C, compilers to JVM or CLR bytecode (with ithe native JIT), compilers to private bytecode with or without JIT, and tree-walking interpreters.
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2018-12-28T15:26:23Z siraben: deuill: I've been working on an assembler and operating system for the Z80 chip  https://github.com/siraben/zkeme80
2018-12-28T15:27:05Z siraben: Currently it's not retargetable, but it'd be great to come up with some s-exp based way to represent CPU opcodes
2018-12-28T15:28:00Z siraben: It's amazing writing an assembler in Scheme because it's extremely extensible, I mix in a lot of meta-programming statements all the time
2018-12-28T15:29:28Z siraben: Operating system targeted towards TI-84+ calculators^
2018-12-28T15:30:50Z ogamita: Macro assemblers were also extensible. Up to the point they were like B or C…
2018-12-28T15:31:01Z ogamita: But LAP are nicer indeed.
2018-12-28T15:31:30Z siraben: LAP?
2018-12-28T15:32:07Z ogamita: Lisp Assembler Program.
2018-12-28T15:32:10Z siraben: Somewhat, but Lisps have better macro systems
2018-12-28T15:32:13Z ogamita: sexpified assembler.
2018-12-28T15:32:17Z ogamita: Definitely.
2018-12-28T15:32:31Z siraben: I'd like to find an "industrial strength" one
2018-12-28T15:33:00Z siraben: Found a lot of half-completed Scheme-based ones on GitHub
2018-12-28T15:33:07Z ogamita: No, lisp is above anyways.  If you can use a full lisp in your macros, it'll be  way better anyways.
2018-12-28T15:34:09Z ogamita: I mean, you can use any good scheme implementation to write your assembler, and let the user use the whole scheme in macros.
2018-12-28T15:35:09Z siraben: Right
2018-12-28T15:35:40Z siraben: Trying to figure out how to make it target-independent via some opcode table is on my to-do list
2018-12-28T15:36:07Z siraben: I'm abusing pattern matching in mine :D
2018-12-28T15:49:07Z jcowan: At one point, Bell Labs wrote an assembler whose programs were also valid C programs, so you could debug them in a friendly environment with the C compiler, and switch to the assembler for delivery.  So for example "r1 = r1 + 1" was assembled to a single instruction INCR R1 (and probably compiled similarly with a decent C compiler, though you didn't have control over the registers when compiling as C, of course)
2018-12-28T15:49:57Z siraben: At some point I might experiment with META II, which has its own meta-circular ring to it
2018-12-28T15:50:42Z siraben: http://www.ibm-1401.info/Meta-II-schorre.pdf
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2018-12-28T15:51:05Z siraben: If I can nail parsing in Scheme, probably will have to resort to monadic parsing
2018-12-28T15:51:08Z jcowan: special-purpose instructions were represented as calls on functions, for which a C library was provided that did the same thing.  Alas, references to this assembler seem to have fallen off the Net
2018-12-28T15:51:39Z siraben: jcowan: IIRC C allows inline ASM
2018-12-28T15:53:09Z siraben: with register control
2018-12-28T15:56:08Z ggole: Not portably. There are various incompatible extensions.
2018-12-28T15:57:28Z siraben: Of course, it being C, you could always write an array of bytes and execute that
2018-12-28T15:58:01Z ggole: It's actually quite fiddly to make that work these days
2018-12-28T15:58:13Z ggole: (Depending on which platform you are running on.)
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2018-12-28T16:06:25Z ogamita: ggole:  only because of the OS, you have to switch MMU flags.  But this would be the same in assembler.
2018-12-28T16:13:08Z ggole: In assembler you would just define the bytes in the right segment.
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2018-12-28T16:19:04Z ogamita: ggole: again, nope.
2018-12-28T16:19:22Z ogamita: ggole: the OS only provides you with memory that is either executable XOR writable, but not both.
2018-12-28T16:19:35Z ogamita: So in assembler, you can write whatever you want, if it's written, it's not executable.
2018-12-28T16:19:54Z ogamita: First, you have to do the same as in C, you have to ask nicely the OS to switch those pages to executable.
2018-12-28T16:21:54Z siraben: ogamita: hm? On the Z80 I can execute what I have written just fine.
2018-12-28T16:23:02Z siraben: But I can't write into OS memory (addresses 0 to #x4000 for TI-84+ calcs)
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2018-12-28T16:31:03Z ggole: ogamita: you can instruct an assembler to place literal bytes, eg, 0xff 0xcd, in an executable section such as .text. And you cannot do that in C (without extensions).
2018-12-28T16:31:59Z ggole: That's all I meant.
2018-12-28T16:33:00Z ggole: Executing dynamically assembled machine code is a different matter, although that is increasingly fiddly these days as well.
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2018-12-28T16:37:47Z siraben: ggole: A lot of Forth implementations do that just fine
2018-12-28T16:38:57Z Riastradh: What ogamita is condescending you about is that some operating systems these days always map pages with `write-xor-execute' (or W^X) permissions -- i.e., map pages writably, or map pages readably, but never both at the same time.
2018-12-28T16:39:37Z Riastradh: To execute code you have just written, you need to ask the operating system to change the permissions from write to execute, e.g. with the mprotect system call.
2018-12-28T16:40:42Z ggole: Sure, that's a familiar dance. The new(ish) fiddliness is that you have to use mmap for some systems to agree to let you mark the memory executable.
2018-12-28T16:40:56Z ggole: eg, malloced memory might not be acceptable.
2018-12-28T16:41:17Z siraben: Running arbitrary code (especially assembly) is usually a bad way to add attack surface
2018-12-28T16:41:48Z siraben: Right, let's not just allow the user to overflow the buffer and execute arbitrary code!
2018-12-28T16:43:36Z Riastradh: Yes, not a good idea to mprotect what malloc gave you -- you might cause malloc's internal data structures to become nonwritable.
2018-12-28T16:45:31Z ggole: Perhaps, but additionally the OS might refuse to allow the mprotect.
2018-12-28T16:51:39Z jcowan: Inline assembler is quite a different matter, and has been around since Fortran days.
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2018-12-28T17:40:33Z siraben: Anyone here implemented a Scheme in Forth?
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2018-12-28T18:49:18Z ecraven: Riastradh: do you know whether unicode support was added to edwin too, or only to all the rest of MIT/GNU Scheme?
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2018-12-28T18:49:45Z Riastradh: Not Edwin.
2018-12-28T18:50:42Z ecraven: any plans for that which you know about, or is that too large a project?
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2018-12-28T18:51:06Z Riastradh: No idea.
2018-12-28T18:51:25Z ecraven: thanks ;)
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2018-12-28T20:03:31Z ecraven: su
2018-12-28T20:03:57Z Riastradh: su: You are not listed in the correct secondary group (wheel) to su root.
2018-12-28T20:04:02Z Riastradh: su: This incident will be reported.
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2018-12-28T22:20:38Z deuill: Thanks for the links, all, I'll dig into them
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2018-12-29T02:44:18Z foof: Riastradh: (atan -0. -1.) => -pi works fine
2018-12-29T02:45:43Z foof: why would (- 0.) return -0.?  I take unary (- x) to mean (- 0 x).
2018-12-29T02:47:01Z Riastradh: foof: - flips the sign of whatever its input is, be it zero, subnormal, infinity, or NaN.
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2018-12-29T02:48:30Z Riastradh: foof: I have forgotten what the atan issue was.  (atan -0. -1.) => approximately -pi seems right.
2018-12-29T02:49:41Z Riastradh: foof: I mean unary - does that -- that is, negation.
2018-12-29T02:49:55Z Riastradh: We don't have a separate negate routine.
2018-12-29T02:54:37Z foof: the standards just say "additive inverse"
2018-12-29T02:55:34Z Riastradh: What is the operation to flip the sign, if not unary -?
2018-12-29T02:58:09Z foof: * -1
2018-12-29T02:58:39Z foof: although it looks like r6rs also says "additive inverse" but adds:  Implementations that distinguish −0.0 should adopt behavior consistent with the following examples:
2018-12-29T02:58:51Z Riastradh: Doesn't work reliably with NaN.
2018-12-29T02:58:52Z foof: (- 0.0) ⇒ -0.0
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2018-12-29T03:00:41Z foof: NaN is NaN - unless you're doing some low-level hackery it has no sign
2018-12-29T03:00:53Z Riastradh: IEEE 754 prescribes a negate(x) operation that never signals a floating-point exception for any input, even NaN.  If - isn't that, then
2018-12-29T03:01:21Z Riastradh: ...there should be a separate operation, but I don't see a need for a separate operation.
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2018-12-29T03:02:21Z foof: I'm not sure that operation is useful.
2018-12-29T03:04:31Z Riastradh: It is.  For example, suppose you are reversing the direction of a path approaching a branch cut in the complex plane.  If you use the IEEE 754 negate operation, then you are guaranteed to stay on that side of the branch cut; if (- 0.) = 0. instead of -0., then as the path approaches the branch cut it will flip over it and yield a giant discontinuity.
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2018-12-29T03:05:34Z Riastradh: (Generally, I've found design decisions in IEEE 754 are pretty well thought through and motivated -- if my intuition doesn't match IEEE 754 then I'll second-guess myself, not IEEE 754.)
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2018-12-29T03:06:21Z foof: For (- 0.) => -0. I'm on the fence and can probably be convinced.  I was questioning the utility of an arithemtic operation that behaves differently on NaNs from similar arithmetic operations.
2018-12-29T03:07:08Z foof: ... or questioning the design more than the utility.
2018-12-29T03:10:07Z Riastradh: All of the sign operations -- negate, abs, copysign -- behave like this in IEEE 754.  Conceivably one could have two separate sets of operations, signalling and quiet, but it's not clear that there's value in having the distinction -- unlike, say, for ordering comparisons, in which there is a useful distinction.
2018-12-29T03:13:09Z Riastradh: The sign of a NaN does figure into the totalOrder predicate, by the way.
2018-12-29T03:13:57Z Riastradh: All `negative' NaNs sort before all non-NaNs which sort before all `positive' NaNs.
2018-12-29T03:15:15Z foof: That sounds like a mis-feature. I would want all NaNs sorted together for easy viewing.
2018-12-29T03:16:16Z foof: (gotta run)
2018-12-29T03:17:19Z Riastradh: *shrug* The choice of total ordering is kind of arbitrary; this is just a standard one you can reach for if you don't have any other constraints to impose on it.
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2018-12-29T10:31:06Z brendyyn: What is iota called iota? Does it stand for something?
2018-12-29T10:31:53Z ggole: It's the greek letter i
2018-12-29T10:32:42Z brendyyn: oh
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2018-12-29T10:33:05Z ggole: In an English context I suppose it's associated with the idea of the smallest increment of something, eg, "not one iota of spline was left unreticulated"
2018-12-29T10:33:44Z ggole: Seems like an overly clever name to me.
2018-12-29T10:34:30Z brendyyn: It confused me a it. "give me x elements, differing by y, starting from z"
2018-12-29T10:36:15Z pjb: ggole: also multi-millenia old.
2018-12-29T10:36:30Z pjb: ggole: also Starwars Ioda! <-- Where do you think it comes from?
2018-12-29T10:36:35Z pjb: or Yoda.
2018-12-29T10:36:49Z pjb: (the small one).
2018-12-29T10:38:39Z brendyyn: I'm writing some code to scrape some files from a site that is heavy with javascript. Fortunately I found a way to get a link to a generated json file of each page in firefox. It's not fun when sites are designed to not let you download stuff
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2018-12-29T12:52:36Z siraben: brendyyn:  In Scheme iota is named as such because it's inspired by APL's iota operator
2018-12-29T12:53:10Z siraben: (iota 5) => (0 1 2 3 4)
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2018-12-30T16:51:48Z jcowan: I went back and looked at R7RS-small and some source docs to see which procedures were actually committee inventions:  List-set!, string->vector, vector->string, emergency-exit.  That seems to be all.  Everything else came from R[56]RS, a SRFI, or (the time library) from Common Lisp.
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2018-12-30T18:22:39Z amz3: hello there
2018-12-30T18:22:43Z amz3: hello here
2018-12-30T18:26:47Z rain1: hi
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2018-12-31T21:16:07Z duncanm: Riastradh: la la la
2018-12-31T21:19:40Z edgar-rft: ♩ ♪ ♫ ♬
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2018-12-31T22:30:38Z ober: ⚖
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