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2018-11-01T01:37:57Z dTal: I had a little watershed moment a week or so back - I designed and implemented a recursive algorithm to solve a task I was being paid to solve. Not out of playfulness, but simply because it seemed like the right way to do it.
2018-11-01T01:38:32Z dTal: It may not be much for some, but that's the first time that's happened to me. Especially pleasingly, it worked perfectly first time.
2018-11-01T01:43:50Z Riastradh: Cool!
2018-11-01T01:46:06Z qu1j0t3: dTal: :)
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2018-11-01T13:19:48Z lockywolf_: Hello, friends. Who uses scheme-mode for Emacs?
2018-11-01T13:21:19Z siraben: ManDay:  That makes sense.  Continuations are useful for certain problems.
2018-11-01T13:24:35Z lockywolf_: What's wrong with the following definition: (define y (let (
2018-11-01T13:24:35Z lockywolf_: 		(x (list 'a 'b 'c))
2018-11-01T13:24:35Z lockywolf_: 		)
2018-11-01T13:24:35Z lockywolf_:        (set-cdr! (cddr x) x)
2018-11-01T13:24:35Z lockywolf_:        x
2018-11-01T13:24:36Z lockywolf_: ))
2018-11-01T13:24:38Z lockywolf_: ?
2018-11-01T13:24:49Z pjb: Nothing.
2018-11-01T13:25:05Z pjb: The let creates a circular list that is bound to y.
2018-11-01T13:25:27Z siraben gasps at the indentation
2018-11-01T13:25:44Z pjb: #1=(a b c . #1#)
2018-11-01T13:26:01Z qu1j0t3: siraben: :D
2018-11-01T13:26:15Z pjb: lockywolf_: you may have difficulties if your scheme is not able to print circular structures with such self references.
2018-11-01T13:26:32Z lockywolf_: Yeah, I got it. Scheme-mode complains about 'if: Sorry, we can’t grok this definition syntax. [3 times]'
2018-11-01T13:26:41Z lockywolf_: The interpreter works fine, however.
2018-11-01T13:26:47Z qu1j0t3: /b list
2018-11-01T13:26:51Z qu1j0t3: oops
2018-11-01T13:27:06Z lockywolf_: The indentation got eaten by HexChat :(
2018-11-01T13:27:32Z qu1j0t3: i think it's the newlines before ) that bother me
2018-11-01T13:27:37Z ManDay: Can someone explain to me what that #-2# thing is?
2018-11-01T13:27:57Z siraben: Means it references the 2nd element back
2018-11-01T13:28:10Z siraben: Why does (define y (let ((x '(a b c))) (set-cdr! (cddr x) x) x)) fail in Guile?  In procedure set-cdr!: Wrong type argument in position 1 (expecting mutable pair): (c)
2018-11-01T13:28:19Z siraben: is (list 'a 'b 'c) different from '(a b c) ?
2018-11-01T13:28:25Z siraben: Oh I guess becaues the latter is not mutable
2018-11-01T13:28:31Z siraben: because*
2018-11-01T13:29:00Z ManDay: woah... I'm lost now. I neither knew about references, nor did I know there was a difference between (list 'a 'b' 'c) and '(a b c)!
2018-11-01T13:29:09Z qu1j0t3: implementation dependent, i think.
2018-11-01T13:29:32Z qu1j0t3: but this is a chan of language lawyers so we'll soon find out.
2018-11-01T13:29:39Z pjb: ManDayit's a BASIC CONCEPT! (of r7rs). Cf page 9, section 2.4 Datum labels: http://www.larcenists.org/Documentation/Documentation0.98/r7rs.pdf
2018-11-01T13:30:29Z siraben: What background should I have to understand the formal semantics at the end of the R5RS specification?
2018-11-01T13:30:32Z pjb: ManDay: it let us  write literal circular structures.
2018-11-01T13:30:32Z ManDay: Since I have rarely ever used side-effects, I'm not familiar with the concept of mutability and references in scheme!
2018-11-01T13:30:43Z pjb: siraben: formal semantics.
2018-11-01T13:30:54Z pjb: siraben: it's quite interesting actually.
2018-11-01T13:30:57Z siraben: pjb:  Resources on learning that?
2018-11-01T13:31:08Z siraben: Yeah I'd like to know more about formal semantis.
2018-11-01T13:31:10Z siraben: semantics*
2018-11-01T13:32:03Z ManDay: pjb: Is there any assessible introduction to that? For example something that would help me understand how (cddr x) does actually return something which, when modified, modifies x? How do I distinguish between reference and value when implementing something like (cddr)?
2018-11-01T13:32:17Z pjb: Actually, formal systems semantics.  http://www.cs.bath.ac.uk/pb/EMCL/DS/DS-Ref-2011/c19.pdf
2018-11-01T13:33:09Z ManDay: Or rather: Assuming that `car` and `cdr` by themself both return references, how would I define a `car` which returns a copy?
2018-11-01T13:33:16Z siraben: ManDay:  (cddr x) takes a list object x and returns a reference to the cdr and cdr of x
2018-11-01T13:33:43Z siraben: cdr of the cdr of x
2018-11-01T13:33:50Z pjb: ManDay: well the point of the formal system of a programming language would be precisely to define its semantics, by specifying in those formula, that there are references and values, and that modifying a value would obviously modify it whatever reference to the value you have to reach the value.  It would be explicitely implicit in the formula.
2018-11-01T13:34:06Z ManDay: pjb: Huh?
2018-11-01T13:34:33Z siraben: (set! (car a) 3) is invalid.  You need to use set-car!
2018-11-01T13:34:34Z ManDay: siraben: I've never heard of references or anything similar. Is this purely r7rs? I see no mention of it in r6rs (let alone the definition of cdr/car)?
2018-11-01T13:34:37Z siraben: For instance
2018-11-01T13:35:15Z lockywolf_: So I'm trying to run C-c M-c RET, and the only thing it does -- it prints "menu-bar scheme Compile Definition".
2018-11-01T13:35:28Z lockywolf_: In the minibuffer.
2018-11-01T13:35:30Z siraben: ManDay:  This is due to the formal semantics of Scheme.  The distinction between reference or value is important.
2018-11-01T13:35:46Z siraben: Values are immutable, references are mutable.
2018-11-01T13:35:55Z siraben: ^I think that's right
2018-11-01T13:36:43Z ManDay: siraben: That's all fine but completely new to me! I'd like to have some reference to refer to and to understand this. For example, I had no idea '(a b c) was not mutable but (list 'a 'b 'c) is! For me, those were the same thing!
2018-11-01T13:36:51Z ManDay: Is this *not* in r6rs?
2018-11-01T13:37:12Z siraben: Again, implementation dependent
2018-11-01T13:37:17Z siraben: I also didn't know that
2018-11-01T13:37:31Z ManDay: it's completely counterintuitive!
2018-11-01T13:37:36Z siraben: I hardly use mutation except in very very specific circumstances where it's unavoidable.
2018-11-01T13:38:30Z siraben: Check the behavior of `quote` and `list` in the specification, should clear it up.
2018-11-01T13:39:05Z siraben: I'm reading R5RS right now
2018-11-01T13:39:07Z ManDay: and how the heck is `set-cdr (cdr!` different from `set! (cdr (cdr` ?!
2018-11-01T13:39:08Z siraben: "As noted in section 3.4, it is an error to alter a constant (i.e. the value of a literal expression) using a mutation pro- cedure like set-car! or string-set!."
2018-11-01T13:39:39Z ManDay: I wish I could just forget what I saw and comfort myself in the illusion that scheme was a perfectly intutiive and clean language :-(
2018-11-01T13:39:45Z pjb: ManDay: in r5rs, there are no "places" like in Common Lisp.
2018-11-01T13:40:01Z pjb: So (set! (cdr k) d) is not a form.
2018-11-01T13:40:13Z wasamasa: lol, intuitive
2018-11-01T13:40:25Z siraben: Depends on your intuition
2018-11-01T13:40:28Z wasamasa: intuitive means "behaves the same as the last thing I've touched"
2018-11-01T13:40:38Z pjb: In a way it's strange, because for define, (define (f x) b) is equivalent to (define f (lambda (x) b)) so they can do the syntactic transformation when they like it…
2018-11-01T13:40:38Z ManDay: pjb: I don't know CL, what do you mean? Why would that not be a form?
2018-11-01T13:40:42Z wasamasa: simple and clean, sure
2018-11-01T13:40:43Z siraben: Scheme is just like BASIC!
2018-11-01T13:41:13Z ManDay: and if that isn't, why would set-cdr! be?
2018-11-01T13:41:30Z siraben: To learn a completely new language, you have to stop using your intuition.
2018-11-01T13:41:32Z pjb: ManDay: a form is something that can be evaluated. (set! (cdr k) d) would signal an error.
2018-11-01T13:41:53Z pjb: set-cdr! is bound to a mere function.
2018-11-01T13:42:06Z pjb: It takes two arguments, a cons cell, and a value: (set-cdr! k d)
2018-11-01T13:42:13Z wasamasa: ManDay: they do completely different things
2018-11-01T13:42:15Z ManDay: huh? so what does set-cdr! expand to?
2018-11-01T13:42:23Z pjb: To nothing.
2018-11-01T13:42:27Z siraben: It's a primitive.
2018-11-01T13:42:31Z pjb: It just calls the function bound to set-cdr!
2018-11-01T13:42:40Z pjb: Not necessarily.
2018-11-01T13:43:01Z siraben: ManDay:  In what context are you using circular lists?
2018-11-01T13:43:09Z ManDay: sorry, "expand" was the wrong term - I meant how is it expressed in terms of primitives (but siraben answered that)
2018-11-01T13:43:34Z siraben: pjb:  Will reading that PDF allow me to follow the formal semantics of R5RS?
2018-11-01T13:43:40Z ManDay: siraben: None! This whole subject is completely new to me (thanks very much lockywolf_ :P)
2018-11-01T13:44:02Z pjb: siraben: and more.
2018-11-01T13:44:05Z siraben: ManDay:  Do you know SICP?
2018-11-01T13:44:24Z ManDay: siraben: know: yes. having read it? no.
2018-11-01T13:44:27Z siraben: It discusses the benefits/drawbacks/confusions of mutation pretty well.
2018-11-01T13:44:32Z jcowan: ManDay: The reason literals are immutable is that they are part of your code, and when you try to change one, you are mutating your own code.  Which is generally considered a Bad Thing any time this last 60 years.
2018-11-01T13:44:41Z siraben: ManDay:  Have you watched the lectures?
2018-11-01T13:44:53Z ManDay: siraben: no, neither :-/
2018-11-01T13:45:08Z siraben: The book is dense, whereas the lectures are more approachable.
2018-11-01T13:45:11Z ManDay: jcowan: Ok, that somewhat makes sense.
2018-11-01T13:45:43Z siraben: They're really good, highly recommended.
2018-11-01T13:45:47Z nly quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
2018-11-01T13:45:56Z siraben: Although they don't teach Scheme "as we know it", it much more about computer science and other things
2018-11-01T13:46:19Z ManDay: I still don't follow your argument about set-cdr! vs. set! - You seem to suggest that (set! (cdr k) d) would cause an error because "the first argument is not a simple object" (in a sense) - but we have seen that (set-cdr! (cdr k) d) works, so that argument can be universally valid!
2018-11-01T13:46:26Z siraben: pjb:  Cool.  I'll take a look.
2018-11-01T13:46:56Z ManDay: s/can/can't
2018-11-01T13:47:06Z jcowan: No, it's because set! changes the value of a variable, like = in most C-ish languages, whereas set-cdr! changes the value of part of a data structure.
2018-11-01T13:47:22Z lockywolf_: C-c M-c runs the command scheme-compile-definition (found in
2018-11-01T13:47:23Z lockywolf_: scheme-mode-map), which is an interactive compiled Lisp function in
2018-11-01T13:47:23Z lockywolf_: ‘cmuscheme.el’.
2018-11-01T13:47:23Z lockywolf_: It is bound to C-c M-c, <menu-bar> <scheme> <Compile Definition>.
2018-11-01T13:47:23Z lockywolf_: (scheme-compile-definition)
2018-11-01T13:47:23Z lockywolf_: Compile the current definition in the inferior Scheme process.
2018-11-01T13:47:30Z lockywolf_: Yeah, wonderful.
2018-11-01T13:47:52Z lockywolf_: Why is scheme-mode calling something cmuscheme specific things?
2018-11-01T13:48:10Z jcowan: so set! has to be followed by a variable in all cases.  There are extensions to this that let you say (set! (cdr x) y) (which translates to a set-cdr!), but not in vanilla standard Scheme.
2018-11-01T13:48:16Z wasamasa: lockywolf_: emacs is ancient
2018-11-01T13:48:54Z wasamasa: lockywolf_: read the commentary in the file
2018-11-01T13:49:16Z ManDay: jcowan: I don't find this argument "set! changes the value, set-cdr! changes the value of a part" compelling - it has no motivation for me
2018-11-01T13:50:42Z jcowan: set! changes the value of a *variable*.
2018-11-01T13:51:24Z ManDay: My logic: set-cdr! illustrates that there can exist a setter which takes *any* mutable thing or reference thereto and modify it (like the result of `(cdr k)`). So why can `set` not follow the same logic and take *anything* (including the reference to something returned by (cdr k)) and modify it?
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2018-11-01T13:51:49Z jcowan: No, set-cdr! applies to pairs and nothing but pairs, never to vectors, or numbers, or other Scheme objects.
2018-11-01T13:51:53Z siraben: Read the specification
2018-11-01T13:52:02Z siraben: Exactly.
2018-11-01T13:52:20Z siraben: In the same way (car a) is valid if and only if a is an object made up of cons
2018-11-01T13:53:10Z ManDay: jcowan: Yes, that's how it is, but I don't see what motivates that limitation. Since, as by set-cdr!, there *can* exist a function which modifies a reference, why can we not let it be set! and drop set-cdr! altogether?
2018-11-01T13:53:15Z ManDay: That's what bothers me.
2018-11-01T13:53:43Z jcowan: Long ago there was a bug (it *was* a bug, contrary to some claims) in a Fortran compiler, such that if you passed a literal like 5 to a procedure as an argument, and the procedure changed the value of its argument to 10, then all occurrences of 5 in your program magically became 10!
2018-11-01T13:53:56Z ManDay: set! would be defined as (set! x y) sets the thing to which "x" expands to the value of "y" (even if "x" is a reference to anything).
2018-11-01T13:54:11Z jcowan: (Modern Fortran compilers will reject this, unless you explicitly pass the argument by value, which is not normal in Fortran.)
2018-11-01T13:54:36Z ManDay: jcowan: I don't see how this is related. 5 is obviously immutable, so that has nothing to do with this perceived inconsistency in Scheme.
2018-11-01T13:55:00Z lockywolf_: cmuscheme.el last modified in 1990
2018-11-01T13:55:02Z lockywolf_: cool
2018-11-01T13:55:24Z jcowan wonders what Scheme impl they used at CMU back in the day
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2018-11-01T13:55:48Z siraben: MIT Scheme, probably
2018-11-01T13:55:54Z jcowan: Going back to your original complaint that '(1 2 3) is immutable.
2018-11-01T13:56:21Z ManDay: jcowan: No, THAT part is understandable, somewhat. But it has nothing to do with the weird semantics of set! and set-cdr!
2018-11-01T13:56:38Z ManDay: For the sake of the argument, we assume whatever is being used is mutable.
2018-11-01T13:56:42Z siraben: Define "weird"
2018-11-01T13:56:48Z pjb: for example, in https://pastebin.com/yTccy4tH you can see that set-car! and set-cdr! are just procedures.
2018-11-01T13:56:57Z jcowan: What you are asking for is defined as an extension to Scheme, but (a) it is not part of the standards (b) is not widely implemented (c) works only on accessors for which a setter has been defined
2018-11-01T13:57:14Z ManDay: siraben: The limitation that set! can not work with (cdr k) is weird.
2018-11-01T13:57:29Z siraben: The semantics of set! and set-cdr! are defined in the specificaiton.
2018-11-01T13:57:47Z ManDay: Well, I'm not argueing that. I'm just saying it doesn't make any sense to me!
2018-11-01T13:58:01Z pjb: ManDay: your logic is the same as the designers of Common Lisp's logic.  Perhaps you'd be happy with CL?
2018-11-01T13:58:20Z siraben: ManDay:  ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
2018-11-01T13:58:35Z ManDay: pjb: No. I'm generally looking for simplicity and universality. That's scheme. And that's why this set! thing is so unsettling.
2018-11-01T13:58:39Z pjb: But another thing that my example https://pastebin.com/yTccy4tH  demonstrates, is that there is fundamentally only one mutation: (set! variable value), variable being in a closure.
2018-11-01T13:59:02Z siraben: pjb:  Dynamic scoping doesn't make sense to me!
2018-11-01T13:59:03Z pjb: And this is why for the spite of simplicity and universality, in scheme, set! can only set a variable.
2018-11-01T13:59:15Z pjb: siraben: there's no dynamic scoping here.
2018-11-01T13:59:28Z siraben: pjb:  In CL
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2018-11-01T13:59:40Z pjb: siraben:  and if it didn't make sence, time wouldn't need to exist.
2018-11-01T13:59:53Z ManDay: pjb: That attempt and "simplicity" is complete moot, though, since we can see in set-cdr! that limitation does *not* universally apply!
2018-11-01T13:59:57Z siraben: How does it relate to time?
2018-11-01T14:00:27Z pjb: ManDay: of course it does. set-cdr! and any similar function will just call set! on the right variable in the right closure for the given data structure.
2018-11-01T14:00:36Z pjb: It's a normal functional abstraction.
2018-11-01T14:00:52Z jcowan: pjb: Or the dual: there is no mutation of variables at all, only of boxes hiding behind the scenes (which is how many Schemes implement variables that are mutated)
2018-11-01T14:00:59Z pjb: siraben: dynamic = time; lexical = space.
2018-11-01T14:01:10Z pjb: Programming is a spacio-temporal thing.
2018-11-01T14:01:11Z siraben: pjb:  Of course.
2018-11-01T14:01:23Z pjb: Math is timeless, of all eternity.
2018-11-01T14:01:24Z ManDay: pjb: Are you saying that set-cdr! can be expressed in terms of set! ?
2018-11-01T14:01:35Z pjb: ManDay: again read https://pastebin.com/yTccy4tH
2018-11-01T14:01:45Z jcowan: ManDay.  Yes, if you implement pairs as closures.
2018-11-01T14:02:01Z jcowan: "Closures are poor man's objects, but then again, objects are poor man's closures."
2018-11-01T14:02:07Z pjb: It's another way to write the formal semantics of cons cells.
2018-11-01T14:02:10Z jcowan: Or more concisely, "OO and FP are duals"
2018-11-01T14:05:02Z ggole: You need a little more, if you want pair?
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2018-11-01T14:11:17Z ManDay: pjb: Ok, got it. It does make sense if you don't consider pairs an integral part of scheme but implementation dependend.
2018-11-01T14:11:27Z ManDay: I didn't even realize you could re-implement them
2018-11-01T14:11:44Z ManDay: thanks for the lesson! :)
2018-11-01T14:12:50Z ManDay is now reconciled with Scheme; faith restored!
2018-11-01T14:13:59Z pjb: :-)
2018-11-01T14:14:50Z pjb: ManDay: you may have fun reading: http://home.pipeline.com/~hbaker1/MetaCircular.html  and of course, sicp.
2018-11-01T14:15:20Z ManDay: right, the reference & circular stuff... still have to get my head around this!
2018-11-01T14:15:53Z pjb: Now, the litte secret of formal system semantics, is that the semantics of formal systems are defined in terms of formal systems! It's a kind of "circular" definition. (not really, since the defining formal system is simplier than the defined formal system in general, but still).
2018-11-01T14:16:23Z pjb: Similarly, LISP was originaly defined in terms of the EVAL function written itself in LISP, which was hard to understand to people even like EWD…
2018-11-01T14:17:14Z ManDay: So is the "circular" part a base feature of scheme (meaning that with any implementation using set!, like yours, you'd end up with circular structures due to prescribed semantics of set!) ?
2018-11-01T14:18:01Z pjb: In theory.  In practice, we write implementations targetting physical hardware.
2018-11-01T14:18:14Z pjb: Now of course, the universe is probably implemented as a lisp program on some giant computer, so…
2018-11-01T14:18:20Z pjb: It's all turtles down under.
2018-11-01T14:18:20Z pjb: https://www.cs.utexas.edu/~EWD/
2018-11-01T14:19:00Z pjb: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turtles_all_the_way_down
2018-11-01T14:19:15Z ManDay: Huh? I mean, I imagine if the specification of "set!" said something like "[...] if the 2nd operand expands to contain the first operand, then a circular containment is established [...]" then it would all follow - but is it that way?
2018-11-01T14:19:41Z pjb: The funny thing is that the link between maths, programs, what we think programs are, and the actual electronic computer we use to "run" them is really not obvious at all.
2018-11-01T14:20:37Z pjb: See this: http://paste.lisp.org/display/139933
2018-11-01T14:21:39Z ManDay: jeez, you're bit loosing yourself in philosophy, aren't you?!
2018-11-01T14:22:08Z pjb: (of course, mathematically, with formal systems, you can write down a model for the physical universe, a model for the processor, a model for your program, and establish mathematical bijections and correspondances between those systems, so you say that your program is implemented on the processor by micro-code and that your electronic devices runs your program, computing good results.
2018-11-01T14:22:17Z ManDay: just what did you mean with "in theory. in practice, [...]" ?I don't get it.
2018-11-01T14:22:39Z pjb: But you only did that mathematically; the relevance to the actual mapping between physics and maths could still be argued about…)
2018-11-01T14:24:05Z pjb: ManDay: for a real hardware computer to work, the circularities must be removed.  First because this universe and the time we have to compute is not infinite.  So we cannot accept circularity (infinite loops or recursions), because we wouldn't get real results.
2018-11-01T14:24:39Z pjb: But mathematically this would pose no real problem, as long as a unique solution exist and we can characterise it. We don't even need to determine it precisely.
2018-11-01T14:24:58Z pjb: For example, π.
2018-11-01T14:25:30Z ManDay: pjb: I'm talking about the behaviour that is prescribed by the specification. Does *it* uniquely define the nature of circular entities in terms of the effects of set!? That is my question!
2018-11-01T14:26:04Z pjb: No, not in that sense.
2018-11-01T14:26:45Z pjb: The circularity is in the fact that the definition of the scheme language formal system is given in terms of another formal system.
2018-11-01T14:27:04Z ManDay: pjb: Please be less spiritual with me ;)
2018-11-01T14:27:04Z pjb: You should want to know the semantics of that other formal system, used to define the scheme formal system.
2018-11-01T14:27:08Z pjb: It's maths.
2018-11-01T14:28:00Z ManDay: I'm simply asking whether the semantics of circular containment are implemention dependent
2018-11-01T14:28:12Z ManDay: and if not: Is it uniquely defined by the semantics of set!
2018-11-01T14:29:02Z pjb: Agreed, soon enough you reach the usual set theory stuff.  For example, localtions are an unspecified set L.  Booleans are the set T = {false, true}. Symbols are an unspecified set Q. Pairs are the set L x L x T.
2018-11-01T14:29:22Z pjb: What does L x L x T mean?  What's the semantics of the set theory formal system?
2018-11-01T14:30:07Z pjb: Circular containment? Do you mean the circular structure we build with #= ## or with (set-cdr! (cdr (cdr l)) l) ?
2018-11-01T14:30:18Z ManDay: yes
2018-11-01T14:31:33Z pjb: Well, this meaning is a consequence of the formal definition of scheme.  Basically, the variable l is bound to the location of the first pair, and this location of the first pair is also stored in the cdr of the third pair.
2018-11-01T14:32:02Z pjb: The formal semantics of the language doesn't define all the objects you can create with that language, or their semantics.  It just allows it.
2018-11-01T14:32:30Z pjb: This is another kind of circularity.
2018-11-01T14:33:44Z ManDay: i take that as a "it is not i.d." :)
2018-11-01T14:34:35Z pjb: But it's an interesting question, because you can also implement circular structure without mutation.  Using purely functional languages without mutation (ie. just maths), you can still define a data structure allowing you to represent circular structures.
2018-11-01T14:35:14Z ManDay: sure
2018-11-01T14:35:31Z ManDay: nothing stops me from defing it
2018-11-01T14:36:23Z ManDay: but my concern here was with the circular consequences of side-effects (set-car! x x)
2018-11-01T14:36:34Z pjb: In the case of this formal system, it's done by distinguishing locations from the values, and storage whic is the memory indexed by the location where the values are stored.  The storage can also contain locations.  See 7.2.2 Domain equations.
2018-11-01T14:37:53Z pjb: Stores are L->(ExT), they are functions mapping locations to expressions and a boolean.  And expressions are the union of all the type of values you can store.  One of them is Ep which is the set of pairs, and pairs are LxLxT.  So if you have a store of pairs, you have L->(LxLxT)xT.  Since you can get Ls from a L, you can have loops.
2018-11-01T14:38:23Z pjb: eg. start from the address 3, find the cdr is 4. Look at address 4, find the cdr is 5, look at the address 5 and find the cdr is 3 again!  Circle!
2018-11-01T14:41:28Z pjb: Mutation is the update function: LxExS -> S (also written with currying as L->E->S->S).  (update location object store) returns a new store where the value at location is the object.
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2018-11-01T14:42:50Z pjb: But notice how, by the semantics of math, there's no mutation in the definition of update. It's a mathematical function that defines a new store, which is just like the argument store, only one association between a location and a value is (possibly) different.
2018-11-01T14:43:34Z pjb: We don't need time in math.  Only a lot of space, for all the mathematical objects that always exist, and their relationships (which are mathematical objects tht always exist).
2018-11-01T14:43:37Z ManDay: pjb: there is something missing in your argument from earlier about how set-cdr! can do more than set!, I think: Namely, it depends on the pair being implemented as a closure/lambda. If that were so, shouldn't this be opaque to me (in, say, guile)?
2018-11-01T14:45:03Z pjb: Of course, this is just an instance of an implementation. Other implementations are possible. (and this one doesn't fulfull the whole contract, for example, you'd want to implement type-of or (cons? k) to distinguish our pairs from eg. procedures).
2018-11-01T14:45:10Z ManDay: if, indeed, this was justified by implementation, then a pair should be callable
2018-11-01T14:45:12Z pjb: But semantically, they would all be equivalent.
2018-11-01T14:45:39Z pjb: This would be an extension of the scheme language definition.
2018-11-01T14:45:52Z ManDay: pjb: No, this is not just an instance of an implementation. Any implementation *needs* to be a closure, otherwise your argument wont work
2018-11-01T14:45:57Z pjb: But it is possible. Sometimes, notablyin small implementations, you can have such (happy) surprises.
2018-11-01T14:46:10Z pjb: ManDay: equivalent to a closure.
2018-11-01T14:46:31Z pjb: You could implement cons cells with wool strings and yogourt pots.
2018-11-01T14:46:40Z pjb: Or with electronics.
2018-11-01T14:46:40Z ManDay: what other things equivalent to a closure does scheme define? I think none!
2018-11-01T14:46:51Z pjb: Everything that is mutable.
2018-11-01T14:47:02Z pjb: And other things that are not.
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2018-11-01T14:47:38Z pjb: ManDay: actually, lambda calculus only has closures (functions).  And since lambda calculus is turing complete, we can implement all computer and all languages in lambda calculus.
2018-11-01T14:47:45Z ggole: You can encode arbitrary data types with closures.
2018-11-01T14:48:01Z pjb: Since also, closures are equivalent to objects.
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2018-11-01T14:49:32Z jcowan: ManDay: Nothing equivalent in the sense of Scheme equivalence predicates.  Everything is equivalent in the sense of the formalism.
2018-11-01T14:51:42Z pjb: ManDay: you may also have fun reading GEB. the most important book of the XX century: "Gödel, Escher and Bach: An Eternal Golden Braid" http://www.amazon.com/G%C3%B6del-Escher-Bach-Eternal-Golden/dp/0465026567
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2018-11-01T14:52:36Z ManDay: my reasoning is this: You're alleging set! can not affect (cdr k), because (cdr k) is not just "a reference to a variable" (as I had seen it, where pairs are a fundamental notion of scheme), but instead "something implementation dependent". But then, I say: The only other thing in scheme there is that could be used to implement a pair on top of it is a closure, but then a pair should be callable, which it is
2018-11-01T14:52:39Z ManDay: not.
2018-11-01T14:53:01Z ManDay: So there is a contradiction.
2018-11-01T14:53:25Z pjb: The contradiction is only in appearance, because you're crossing abstraction levels.
2018-11-01T14:53:33Z ManDay: and please spare me the "everything mutable is equivalent to a closure". I'm not talking about abstract computer science, I'm talking about scheme, as in the defined language
2018-11-01T14:53:46Z pjb: Or rather, you're prevented to cross abstraction level in normal use.
2018-11-01T14:54:07Z ManDay: pjb: could you speak in normal terms, leaving out the abstract things?
2018-11-01T14:54:30Z pjb: ManDay: the reason why (set! (cdr k) d) is not valid has nothing to do with the scheme language, but all with the scheme language design. It's a meta-question.
2018-11-01T14:54:31Z ManDay: I have a definition of the language scheme, involving: lambdas, variables therein.
2018-11-01T14:55:12Z ManDay: pjb: You gave your reason why it is not valid: cdr is an implementation specific construct built on top of a closure.
2018-11-01T14:55:22Z pjb: ManDay: in simple terms, it is perfectly possible to define a language where (set! (cdr k) d) works. (see for example, Common Lisp), and see for example, extensions to scheme (IIRC, some SRFI library provides it).
2018-11-01T14:55:39Z pjb: But the simple answer is that the authors of r5rs simply rejected it.
2018-11-01T14:56:12Z ManDay: pjb: It doesn't matter what's possible. My point here is: R5RS is inconsistently designed that way. It's purely subjective, not a mathematical contradiction.
2018-11-01T14:56:26Z pjb: So you can go and ask them why, but if you ask me why they did it, I answered way above: because for reasons of simplicity, they deemed it useless and ugly.
2018-11-01T14:57:11Z ManDay: yes, but the simplicity is only there because you can drop the notion of pairs from the core and let them be implementation specific.
2018-11-01T14:57:11Z pjb: On the contrary, (set! (cdr k) d) would be inconsistent.  Since (cdr k) some time would be a function call, and some times would be a sexp designating a place to be mutated.  It would be puzzling.
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2018-11-01T14:57:37Z pjb: Also, it would promote the mutation model of computing, which scheme tries to demote.
2018-11-01T14:57:46Z ManDay: pjb: No, it doesn't matter what (cdr k) is.
2018-11-01T14:57:59Z ManDay: If it returns in an immutable object, it's an error, else, it's fine.
2018-11-01T14:58:04Z ManDay: THAT is consistent and simple.
2018-11-01T14:58:37Z jcowan: pjb: I think you attribute too much intentionality in this case: I suspect they simply never thought of it.  The ancestor of set! was ASET', where the ' of course belongs to the next argument but was conventionally written as a suffix to the operation
2018-11-01T14:58:39Z ManDay: pjb: I'm not in favour of mutability or side-effects, but they are already in there, so at least make them consistent.
2018-11-01T14:59:23Z pjb: ManDay: also, a big inconsistency would be that (define (foo x) …) would not give you automatically a (setf! (foo x) y).
2018-11-01T14:59:50Z pjb: And even with standard functions, it is not meaningful to have a setter for all functions.
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2018-11-01T15:00:39Z ManDay: pjb: What do you mean? Why are you talking about setf! ? That should not be a primitive in the first place. (set! f (lambda ...)) is the term.
2018-11-01T15:00:46Z johnjay: I'm not really a scheme expert, but I am enjoying seeing the form internet arguments take in #scheme
2018-11-01T15:00:56Z pjb: (set! (sin (/ pi 2)) 3)
2018-11-01T15:01:06Z pjb: If you have (sin x) why not (set! (sin x) z) ?
2018-11-01T15:01:18Z ManDay: johnjay: Shut up, we are only building up to the point where I start insulting everyone and everything!
2018-11-01T15:01:30Z pjb: Well, no, just no.  This is why there is no (set! (cdr k) d).  For consistency and simplicity.
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2018-11-01T15:01:51Z johnjay: Then please, continue.
2018-11-01T15:02:00Z xkapastel: `cdr` is a function that maps a pair to one of its components, there's nothing to set
2018-11-01T15:02:24Z ManDay: pjb: Not sure I get your point there:   (set! (sin (/ pi 2) 3) would give an error because the "LHS" is not mutable (in my vision).
2018-11-01T15:02:50Z ManDay: you can (set! sin ...) alright
2018-11-01T15:03:01Z pjb: ManDay: So you see,  how would set! know that (f x) would be mutable?
2018-11-01T15:03:13Z xkapastel: i guess the `car` `cdr` terminology is a hold over from the old days where all of this stuff was mutable slots, but if you call them `fst` and `snd` this issues goes away
2018-11-01T15:03:28Z ManDay: pjb: Good point.
2018-11-01T15:03:33Z gwatt: pjb: Obviously there would be a way to register complex set! expansions
2018-11-01T15:03:45Z pjb: Indeed. In CL there is.  It's not that simple either.
2018-11-01T15:03:49Z jcowan: No, they could be called fst and snd (or more realistically rst) and be mutable.
2018-11-01T15:03:58Z xkapastel: yeah, they could be
2018-11-01T15:03:58Z ManDay: pjb: I suppose not in advance. But when it returns, it returns either a reference or something immutable.
2018-11-01T15:04:05Z xkapastel: but the reason to change the name is to emphasize that they are not mutable
2018-11-01T15:04:16Z pjb: (there are 3 different way users can define such setters, and the implementation itself may have two different ways more)..
2018-11-01T15:04:26Z jcowan: Immutability (outside literals) wasn't added until R7RS-large, which to say the least isn't widely adopted yet
2018-11-01T15:04:43Z jcowan: It doesn't say so to me, xkapastel.
2018-11-01T15:04:44Z pjb: ManDay: also no. For simplicity, (check the semantics), functions only return objects.
2018-11-01T15:04:57Z pjb: References are not first class objects in scheme.
2018-11-01T15:05:02Z pjb: (contrarily to eg. C++).
2018-11-01T15:05:06Z xkapastel: yeah, lisp is one of those communities that spans a lot of different CS backgrounds
2018-11-01T15:05:09Z jcowan: In R7RS-large there are disjoint immutable pairs that use ipair, icar, icdr, etc.
2018-11-01T15:05:25Z pjb: Nice.
2018-11-01T15:05:35Z jcowan: I decided that "icons" was too confusing
2018-11-01T15:05:36Z pjb: Can car apply to ipair?
2018-11-01T15:05:46Z jcowan: No, because of the Liskov Substitution Principle
2018-11-01T15:05:48Z ManDay: pjb: good, but then again, (cdr k) must be a closure (the only thing scheme defines which would allow for modification, if it's not a mutable variable), but at least in Guile I can't call it.
2018-11-01T15:05:57Z gwatt: jcowan: do you also have an imap?
2018-11-01T15:06:07Z jcowan: Oh yes, the whole SRFI 1 megillah
2018-11-01T15:06:12Z gwatt: ah
2018-11-01T15:06:24Z gwatt: can you apply using an ilist?
2018-11-01T15:06:29Z ManDay: pjb: In other words: How would you (in terms of the objects scheme defines) classify the result of (cdr k)?
2018-11-01T15:06:48Z jcowan: You can iapply, but the portable impl of that is (apply func (ilist->list ilist))
2018-11-01T15:06:54Z pjb: ManDay: the result of (cdr k) is specified in the formal semantics: it's whatever has been stored there by way of cons or set-cdr!
2018-11-01T15:07:06Z jcowan: It can be any object
2018-11-01T15:07:36Z ManDay: pjb: "A reference to it" or "A copy of it"?
2018-11-01T15:07:48Z gwatt: reference
2018-11-01T15:07:50Z jcowan: When pjb says pairs "are" closures, he means that in a theoretical, not a practical, sense.  They can be emulated by closures, but actual pairs in Scheme do not respond #t to the procedure? predicate
2018-11-01T15:07:53Z ManDay: You said: References don't exist, therefore it must be a copy!
2018-11-01T15:08:05Z pjb: ManDay: again, the semantics give the answer. In short, immutable objects can be copied, and mutable objects are referenced.
2018-11-01T15:08:06Z gwatt: ManDay: it is the same object
2018-11-01T15:08:32Z jcowan: But this happens immediately: there are no separate reference objects ("locatives" in old Lisp jargon) that you can carry around
2018-11-01T15:08:33Z ManDay: pjb: You just said the notion of references doesn't exist! (at least that's how I read it)
2018-11-01T15:08:33Z pjb: For immutable objects, it doesn't make a difference for the user if he gets a copy or the original.
2018-11-01T15:08:41Z pjb: (it can be detected using eq?).
2018-11-01T15:08:56Z pjb: ManDay: I said references are not first class objects.
2018-11-01T15:09:01Z jcowan: which is why eqv? is Scheme's identity predicate and eq? is a performance hack
2018-11-01T15:09:05Z pjb: You cannot get (reference-of x) -> r
2018-11-01T15:09:37Z pjb: Now, this is not provided by scheme, but you can actually implement this abstraction (again, using closures).
2018-11-01T15:09:40Z ManDay: johnjay: This is about the time when I loose my shit...
2018-11-01T15:09:44Z gwatt: ManDay: are you familiar with C or C++?
2018-11-01T15:10:30Z ManDay: No seriously, I think I've got a different view of it than you may have coming from a CS perspective.
2018-11-01T15:10:36Z ManDay: gwatt: Yes I am
2018-11-01T15:11:18Z gwatt: Then think about it like this: In scheme, only identifiers can be lvalues
2018-11-01T15:13:47Z ManDay: In my view: Scheme defines a working set of tools, among them: Lambdas, variables therein, setting a variable by set!. On the one hand, you argue (cdr k) returns "a reference to whatever has been stored" (so you're implying there is a 4th tool: A distinction between reference and copy). Then I conclude, if that's so, then set! should be able to work with that reference just fine.
2018-11-01T15:14:37Z ManDay: On the other hand, if you're argueing (cdr k) is just an implementation specific thing (not adding to the set of primitive tools), then I argue it HAS to be a closure, but evidently it is not.
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2018-11-01T15:15:09Z ManDay: s/it HAS to be/a pair HAS to be/
2018-11-01T15:15:33Z pjb: ManDay: references in scheme: https://pastebin.com/MNA8C9Dj
2018-11-01T15:16:41Z ManDay: pjb: That's okay, but what's your point? If it is that references are NOT part of the primitive tools but only implementation dependent, than just see my 2nd point.
2018-11-01T15:16:46Z pjb: ManDay: No, we say that (cdr k) returns THE object that is bound to the cdr slot of the pair.
2018-11-01T15:16:50Z ManDay: s/than/then
2018-11-01T15:17:56Z pjb: ManDay: the problem is that technically, the result can be either a copy (if the object is immutable), or a reference to the original object if it's mutable. So you get the very same original object, or in the cases where you couldn't possibly know the difference, either the very same original object or some indistinguishable copy.
2018-11-01T15:18:31Z ManDay: pjb: I agree with that assessment, but I don't see a problem with it.
2018-11-01T15:19:54Z pjb: ManDay: actually, it's worse than that!  (let ((x (some-object))) (do-something) x) <- here after (do-something) the x you get could be a different copy of the mutable object!  Indeed, some-object will allocate  it somewhere in memory, but if do-something uses a lot of memory the garbage collector may have to move the live objects, making copies, and updating the references.  So the actual address referenced by x before and afte
2018-11-01T15:19:54Z pjb: (do-something) could be different, you could have two different copies of the same identical object!
2018-11-01T15:19:56Z ManDay: (cdr k) returns "THE object", and if that fully qualifies the result, then I'd say it's a suitable argument for set!, which abides to the most simple definition of setting "A object" to "something else".
2018-11-01T15:20:07Z pjb: But you cannot know that, it's hidden in the underlying layer of the garbage collector.
2018-11-01T15:20:52Z pjb: (you may see it if you have a display or print function that includes the address of the object in its output).
2018-11-01T15:21:33Z pjb: But since in scheme there's no way to take an address and obtain an object, this debugging output would not let your program see it.
2018-11-01T15:21:55Z pjb: (low-level) debugging tools let you cross abstraction layers…
2018-11-01T15:22:20Z ManDay: pjb: In your last point, I see it makes it complicated for the implementation/compiler, but semantically I see no problem.
2018-11-01T15:22:36Z ManDay: So if you're argueing practicability-wise, yes, then of course...
2018-11-01T15:22:53Z ManDay: (or rather: then, I wouldn't know)
2018-11-01T15:23:28Z pjb: For practical implementation of scheme, you could have a look at LiSP: Lisp in Small Pieces   http://pagesperso-systeme.lip6.fr/Christian.Queinnec/WWW/LiSP.html  http://pagesperso-systeme.lip6.fr/Christian.Queinnec/Books/LiSP-2ndEdition-2006Dec11.tgz
2018-11-01T15:23:53Z pjb: But already, sicp gives some hints in its 4th chapter.
2018-11-01T15:25:21Z johnjay: I find it amusing that the fact he wrote Lisp in Small Pieces is mentioned in small print near the bottom of the webpage as the last thing.
2018-11-01T15:27:10Z ManDay: so bottom line you're saying that set! can not take arbitrary references to "THE object" because it would have implications for implementation?
2018-11-01T15:28:20Z pjb: Of course it would have. But I'm saying that it's a scheme design choice. Nothing more. And it's consistent.
2018-11-01T15:28:36Z pjb: ManDay: perhaps you should note here that set! is not a function!  It's syntax.
2018-11-01T15:29:26Z pjb: The way syntactic operators process their argument is different than for functions.  For functions, scheme merely evaluates the arguments and the function (any order), and finally calls the function with as parameters the value of the arguments.
2018-11-01T15:29:42Z pjb: For syntactic operator, the rule is different and specific to each operator.
2018-11-01T15:29:57Z ManDay: pjb: Not contradictory, agreed. Consistent? Not so much as I see inconsistency in making limitations which are not of semantic origin and take away from minimalism (in specification).
2018-11-01T15:30:04Z pjb: eg. with if, the first argument is evaluated, and if not false, then the second argument is evaluated, or else the third.
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2018-11-01T15:30:20Z ManDay: I'm aware.
2018-11-01T15:30:29Z pjb: For set!, it evaluates the second argument, and binds the resulting value to the variable designated by the first argument.
2018-11-01T15:30:37Z pjb: The first argument is not evaluated.
2018-11-01T15:31:02Z pjb: This is a simple and consistent definition.  To allow for "places" like in CL, we'd have to specify a more complex rule.
2018-11-01T15:31:46Z pjb: Notice that in CL, we have actuall 3 different setting operators: SET, SETQ, and SETF.
2018-11-01T15:32:01Z pjb: And they're defined in terms of one another!
2018-11-01T15:32:31Z pjb: eg. setq is like set!, but if it gets a symbol-macro instead of a variable, it "uses" (nominaly) setf.
2018-11-01T15:33:16Z pjb: set is actually a function. (set v x) is equivalent to (setf (symbol-value v) x).
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2018-11-01T15:33:44Z pjb: setf uses setq for variables, and implements the complexity of places for the rest.
2018-11-01T15:34:07Z ManDay: pjb: But as I said: Because set-cdr! is evidentally (because it's not a closure) *not* an specific implementation on top of more primitive means, the notion of "passing a reference" in the generality that you deny for `set!` is needed *anyway*
2018-11-01T15:34:19Z pjb: The funny thing in CL, is that there's a GETHASH function, but no PUTHASH. For this you use (setf gethash).
2018-11-01T15:34:41Z ManDay: So yes: `set!` is kept simple in that it only takes a "raw" variable as it's first argument, but the simplification is moot.
2018-11-01T15:35:15Z pjb: Yes, but again, the fundamental thing here is that references are not first class objects.
2018-11-01T15:35:31Z pjb: They could be in the language used for the implementation. But it's not true in scheme.
2018-11-01T15:35:52Z pjb: So of course, we can talk of references when talking about the implementation of scheme. Or of locations or addresses.
2018-11-01T15:35:58Z pjb: But they are not scheme notions.
2018-11-01T15:36:43Z pjb: And once compiled, (set! x v) would show no reference actually. The compilers would have resolved x to some address.
2018-11-01T15:36:47Z ManDay: pjb: Then see it as a criticism to the implementation: Implementing a scheme in a way that the reference/pair is not *explicitly* implemented in terms of primitive means of the language de facto makes it a "first class object".
2018-11-01T15:37:27Z pjb: Not the language.  Again, you could implement scheme using little robots manipulating wool strings.
2018-11-01T15:37:47Z pjb: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FTSAiF9AHN4
2018-11-01T15:37:51Z pjb: Have fun, just do it!
2018-11-01T15:38:14Z ManDay: I'm saying: It's the fault of the implementation. If it was built in the spirit that you portray (and which I share), then it would have been implemented opaquely.
2018-11-01T15:39:02Z pjb: One big advantage of using wool strings  would be that you wouldn't need much to implement the garbage collector.  Just hire a janitor to sweep off the cut out strings, and throw they away for the real garbage man.
2018-11-01T15:39:13Z ManDay: The way it *is* done (in Guile) *suggests* (wrongly), that a reference/cdr are part of the "first class set". Because, they are not opaque. In my opinion.
2018-11-01T15:39:28Z pjb: Of course. Implementations are opaque.
2018-11-01T15:39:44Z pjb: Again, we have a circularity here. To explain scheme, I'm implementing little chunks of scheme in scheme!
2018-11-01T15:39:51Z pjb: Hence .cons .car .cdr.
2018-11-01T15:40:07Z pjb: Notice that in most scheme implementations, you can even overide the standard names!
2018-11-01T15:40:31Z pjb: So in a way you can "modify" the scheme implementation you're using at run-time. (sometimes, on some implementations).
2018-11-01T15:42:12Z ManDay: pjb> Of course. Implementations are opaque. < Why? The elegance I expect from scheme is a clear distinction between the core, "first class" concepts and any convenience on top of it (e.g. stdlib) and that the stdlib doesn't exhibit behaviour *beyond* what the core language allows
2018-11-01T15:42:26Z ManDay: That's not the case here, hence my perception of inconsistency.
2018-11-01T15:42:41Z ManDay: (again: in the implementation, not the core language)
2018-11-01T15:42:41Z pjb: (well, in general implemnetations are opaque.  With open source and (low-level) debuggers, you can eg. type M-. on a cl function and jump to the source of its implementation, I guess some scheme implementations can do the same).
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2018-11-01T15:43:49Z ManDay: pjb: There is a difference between "opaque" as in "sin(x) does not resolve to something" and "opaque" as in "something which is only possible to be implemented in terms of 1st class things like SO does not behave like SO" !!!
2018-11-01T15:44:08Z ManDay: The *latter* is what's the problem in my eyes. Not the former, of course.
2018-11-01T15:44:13Z pjb: ManDay: nope. Turing Equivalence.
2018-11-01T15:44:33Z pjb: Again, formal system semantics are defined in terms of formal system.  Programming languages are implemented in programming languages.
2018-11-01T15:44:37Z ManDay: We have reached the point of opinions. Time to trade insults, don't you think? ;-p
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2018-11-01T15:44:43Z pjb: Virtual machines run in virtual machines.
2018-11-01T15:44:52Z pjb: The universe is simulated in a computer.
2018-11-01T15:44:57Z pjb: It's all turtle down under.
2018-11-01T15:45:13Z pjb: I think we've got a dense session, and you have for a few months of reading to do…
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2018-11-01T15:45:43Z ManDay: *had. I'm afraid my occupation doesn't allow for reading all of which you suggested ;-|
2018-11-01T15:46:25Z pjb: The notion of primitive is purely conventional.  Each implementation author chooses what his primtives are. And some choose to use the whole language (or sometimes, more powerful languages) as primitive to implement a given language.
2018-11-01T15:46:28Z ManDay: GEB and SICP are on my list tho
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2018-11-01T15:47:02Z pjb: Also, the bootstrapping game was played in the 50s.  Nobody has to do it anymore (but on some school exercices for the fun of it).
2018-11-01T15:47:05Z ManDay: pjb: well fixing that choice of which the primitives *are* is exactly the scope of a language spec like lisp. so I took it for granted in my argument.
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2018-11-01T15:48:19Z pjb: ManDay: basically, you feel the need to define primitives, when you are starting from a very low level programming language, and you need to bootstrap from it.  For example, if you start from lambda-calculus, and want to implement scheme, then you will see what you can easil implement in lambda-calculus and use them as "primitives". but it's a purely artificial choice.
2018-11-01T15:48:45Z pjb: (And who is limited to such low level languages? Just use scheme or CL or haskell to implement scheme).
2018-11-01T15:48:52Z ManDay: artificial, but necessary - and only elegant if non-redundant
2018-11-01T15:49:31Z ManDay: i expect scheme to be in that sense fixed to a minimal set.
2018-11-01T15:49:38Z ManDay: anyway...
2018-11-01T15:49:43Z ManDay: opinions
2018-11-01T15:50:04Z ManDay: sorry johnjay you didn't get your show. pjb is just too polite ;-)
2018-11-01T15:50:26Z pjb: ManDay: eg. in CL, the language distinguishes special operators, macros and functions.  But it specifies that special operators can be implemented as macros.  And macros can be implemented as special operator (as long as an equivalent macro definition is still provided for the benefit of user programs), and all the functions in the CL package can be open-coded (ie. can be implemented and inlined as special operators too).
2018-11-01T15:50:44Z johnjay: ah well, there's always the show I watch on youtube where people scream at each other and challenge each other to fight in real life
2018-11-01T15:50:48Z johnjay: thanks very much for playing anyway
2018-11-01T15:51:42Z pjb: ManDay: so why you could consider that the set of special operators are primitives, the specification of CL just says the whole CL is primitive. (and by the way, as I mentionned above, (setf gethash) is not specified to be a function, it would also have to be included in the set of CL primitives, unless you implement hash-tables as something else.
2018-11-01T15:52:03Z pjb: s/why/while/
2018-11-01T15:52:34Z ManDay: fair enough, i get your meaning
2018-11-01T15:52:40Z pjb: Bootstrapping compilers is fun too.  But again, it's a useless exercise nowadays.
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2018-11-01T15:53:12Z pjb: Even in the 50s, they already knew it. the IBM 360 system was designed and programmed on simulators and virtual machines on the most powerful system they had.
2018-11-01T15:53:13Z ManDay: nah thanks... my definition of fun has changed over the years
2018-11-01T15:53:43Z qu1j0t3: that's why you're here!
2018-11-01T15:54:25Z ManDay: talking to you guys is always fun :)
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2018-11-01T16:07:09Z jcowan: I think all the historic setters were flushed from the CL package (of course they still exist for structures) except RPLACA and RPLACD and perhaps a very few others.  At least that was a design goal.
2018-11-01T16:07:57Z jcowan: so PUTPROP and PUTHASH and all of those are gone
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2018-11-01T17:45:33Z Zipheir: Wow, that was an epic conversation.
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2018-11-01T18:17:09Z Zipheir: ... still not sure what the disagreement was about.
2018-11-01T18:22:32Z ManDay: Zipheir: In my opinion, from the non-CS/user vantage point, I was "offended" by the presence of a distinct setter `set-cdr!`, which (from appearance in the specific implementation, not from language design, as pjb made clear through the debate), together with `set!` made a set of commands, where... `set!` can set variables but can not take an expression like (cdr k) as its "lvalue"... `set-cdr!` can take
2018-11-01T18:22:34Z ManDay: expressions like (cdr k) as its "lvalue" but not set normal variables.
2018-11-01T18:23:19Z ManDay: So from that perspective it looks like two half-capable commands where only one full-capable "should exist"
2018-11-01T18:24:02Z pjb: ManDay: this may be due to the naming. set-car! might be confusing, because it looks like set!, but it behaves very differently (it's a function, not syntax).
2018-11-01T18:24:03Z ManDay: (I'm putting this all in quotes to not suggest that that had been my opinion before and during debate)
2018-11-01T18:24:16Z ManDay: pjb: yes, yes - we're good, all understood :)
2018-11-01T18:24:18Z pjb: ManDay: in the old days (and remaining in CL), there are the functions rplaca and rplacd.
2018-11-01T18:24:27Z ManDay: just elaborating the history of the debate to Zipheir
2018-11-01T18:24:38Z pjb: (setf (car k) a) == (rplaca k a)
2018-11-01T18:24:54Z ManDay: Hm, interesting
2018-11-01T18:25:25Z pjb: Knowing that, and the fact that scheme introduced a big renaming (for "pedagogical" purposes), may explain set-cdr!.
2018-11-01T18:25:31Z jcowan: Modulo what they return:  rplaca returns the cons, set-car! returns an unspecified object
2018-11-01T18:25:53Z pjb: in emacs lisp, rplaca returns the new car ;-)
2018-11-01T18:26:30Z Zipheir: ManDay: Got it
2018-11-01T18:26:59Z Zipheir: ManDay: Are you familiar with SRFI-17?
2018-11-01T18:27:25Z ManDay: Now I am :)
2018-11-01T18:29:02Z Zipheir: Well, yes, if you want lvalues... 17's got you covered.
2018-11-01T18:29:15Z ManDay: As I pointed out, I'm not generally opposed to set! being able to only set "raw variables" - it's clean. Just in this case I'd like the implemention to make opaque that cdr-set! is implemented in terms of set! (by closure) instead of giving the appearance on the phenomenological level that it "completed set! for lvalues of the other kind".
2018-11-01T18:29:34Z ManDay: so if anything, I'm pointing fingers at guile, I suppose
2018-11-01T18:29:47Z ManDay: but then, I'm not opposed to srfi-17 either ^^
2018-11-01T18:29:50Z jcowan: All known implementations do make this opaque at the phenomenological level
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2018-11-01T18:30:26Z jcowan: if pairs were implemented as procedures, you'd have no way to detect that (they answer true to pair?, not procedure?)
2018-11-01T18:30:30Z Zipheir: A discussion of linguistic noumena is always orthogonal to the topic :)
2018-11-01T18:30:47Z ManDay: jcowan: maybe i got opaque and transparent reverse? What I mean is that I'd prefer a pair in guile to behave like the closure as which it would be implemented, using only the primitive `lambda` and `set!`
2018-11-01T18:31:06Z ManDay: jcowan: well, that's a point, yes.
2018-11-01T18:31:31Z ManDay: type introspection is another... issue... for another day :-D
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2018-11-01T18:31:51Z Zipheir: ManDay: Why would you assume it was implemented as a closure?
2018-11-01T18:32:53Z Zipheir: ManDay: Any good implementation would make that opaque, as jcowan said.
2018-11-01T18:32:56Z pjb: This is the explaination I gave. Not that it is implemented as a closure, but that it has the same semantics.  We also said that closure = object.
2018-11-01T18:33:28Z ManDay: Zipheir: Why (to the latter)?
2018-11-01T18:33:37Z pjb: Indeed more implementation would use explicit objects (structures) rather than closures to implement cons cells, since that makes it easier to distinguish the types.
2018-11-01T18:34:16Z pjb: But for example, an implementation compiling with continuations could easily use closures to implement those standard types…
2018-11-01T18:35:04Z Zipheir: ManDay: Simpler semantics. Pairs display certain behaviours, and that's all that need be specified.
2018-11-01T18:35:43Z Zipheir: ManDay: WRT closures, this also (obviously) gives implementations the freedom to implement pairs in more efficient ways, say in the absence of mutation.
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2018-11-01T18:36:51Z jcowan: Hmm.  In the absence of mutation, closures can also be (and usually are) implemented more efficiently too.
2018-11-01T18:36:55Z ManDay: Zipheir: Well, for me it eventually boils down to a matter of opinion... If you make things opaque/hidden, you put them into the same pot with the (necessarily opaque) language primites. So set-cdr! gets into one pot with set! and what I dislike about that situation is that then we have this situation with who seemingly "half-functional" commands in the pot of primitives.
2018-11-01T18:37:12Z ManDay: s/primites/primitives/
2018-11-01T18:37:47Z ManDay: Zipheir: yes, there are practical consequences about performance that I deliberately ignore in this
2018-11-01T18:37:57Z Zipheir: ManDay: half-functional?
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2018-11-01T18:39:00Z ManDay: Zipheir: Like I described above? One can does one half of X (setting vars) but not the other (setting "references" returned by functions), and the other does the complementary
2018-11-01T18:39:29Z Zipheir: Also, the obvious reductio ad absurdum: At some level we've got to have opacity, otherwise we're going to need to specify bits.
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2018-11-01T18:41:16Z Zipheir: ManDay: So what you'd like is generalized set?
2018-11-01T18:41:22Z Zipheir: s/set?/set!/
2018-11-01T18:42:39Z ManDay: Zipheir: You mean like #17? I wouldn't mind. But again: I'd be equally happy if the two were more clearly separated in the implementation by making one "obviously/really" implemented in terms of the other.
2018-11-01T18:43:02Z ManDay: (which would be pairs being implemented in terms of closure and set!, i presume)
2018-11-01T18:43:18Z ManDay: i want to stress: It's a matter of taste for me
2018-11-01T18:43:49Z ManDay: I'm not saying this is bad. Especially taking into account the practical implications, I might even agree that in practice the current solution is good.
2018-11-01T18:43:56Z ManDay: s/might even/do
2018-11-01T18:44:07Z Zipheir: But it's obviously a Bad Thing to specify how pairs are to be implemented.
2018-11-01T18:45:01Z ManDay: Zipheir: It wouldn't have to be specified? But it would necessarily be a closure (because nothing else provided by the core language can emulate a pair)
2018-11-01T18:45:34Z ManDay: so (a-pair) "should" throw an error about "wrong number of arguments" or something
2018-11-01T18:45:41Z Zipheir: wat
2018-11-01T18:45:47Z pjb: ManDay: This is where you can see the power of lisp.  Write: (define rplaca set-car!) (define rplacd set-cdr!) and forget set-car! and set-cdr!.
2018-11-01T18:46:00Z pjb: Find similar nice names for vector-set! string-set! etc.
2018-11-01T18:47:15Z Zipheir: Why would you want pairs to be defined in terms of other scheme forms? They're the workhorse of Lisp and should be provided as primitives.
2018-11-01T18:48:45Z jcowan: pjb: It seems that SETF was added to Maclisp sometime between 1974 and 1981, and probably did not exist when Scheme was invented.  The Great Renaming happened in 1985 and SRFI 17 not until 2000, which tends to confirm my idea that
2018-11-01T18:49:21Z jcowan: the Great Quux and friends simply never thought of the idea
2018-11-01T18:50:16Z Zipheir: jcowan: But they must have been aware of the idea?
2018-11-01T18:50:36Z jcowan: Not in 1975, I don't think
2018-11-01T18:51:00Z Zipheir: jcowan: Do you think SRFI-17 is a Good Thing?
2018-11-01T18:51:15Z jcowan: I'm undecided
2018-11-01T18:52:16Z jcowan: fortunately, it's queued up for the Amber Edition ballot
2018-11-01T18:52:26Z jcowan would hate being a BDFL
2018-11-01T18:53:06Z qu1j0t3 coughs
2018-11-01T18:54:44Z jcowan: I asked to be WG2 chair instead of WG1 chair precisely because I had a lot of passionate opinions about R7RS-small but not too many about R7RS-large
2018-11-01T18:56:32Z Zipheir: ManDay: I think the idea is sort of premature optimization for mutation-oriented code. If you're _not_ mutating pairs, requiring them to be implemented that way is just tying the implementation's hands, imho. Not to mention the leaky abstraction.
2018-11-01T18:56:52Z ManDay: Zipheir: *if* there are practical consequences entailed by making pairs expose their implementation, I would of course opt for the practical solution of not doing it (i said several times now)
2018-11-01T18:57:18Z Zipheir: ManDay: Fair enough.
2018-11-01T18:57:27Z ManDay: Zipheir: Yes, I can fully understand that.
2018-11-01T18:58:29Z ManDay: so, do you approve of #17?
2018-11-01T18:58:34Z ManDay: just out of curiousity ^^
2018-11-01T18:58:46Z jcowan: In addition, procedures themselves don't expose their implementation.  So you would have no way to tell if a procedure "is" a pair or not.  That makes programming in dynamically typed systems hard.
2018-11-01T19:00:12Z ManDay: jcowan: I'm just speculating here, but since type-introspection à la `pair?` is some black-box mystery anyway, wouldn't it be equally possible to classify procedures differently?
2018-11-01T19:01:04Z Zipheir: ManDay: I'm not sure about SRFI 17. It makes code more readable, imo, but I can see how it might be a mess to implement.
2018-11-01T19:01:10Z ManDay: like the (pair? ...) would only eval to #t if applied to a "pair procedure". that seems to require the same amount of mystery than an opaque implementation
2018-11-01T19:01:14Z jcowan: I suppose.  But classically pocedures have just one operation, apply.
2018-11-01T19:02:14Z jcowan: So to avoid mystery the procedure would have to be callable with a special object meaning "Answer #t if you are a pair"
2018-11-01T19:02:36Z jcowan: such as (string-copy "pair?"), which is guaranteed to return a unique object
2018-11-01T19:03:19Z ManDay: jcowan: Sure, if you wanted to expose that mystery, too. But I don't see introspection as a prime feature anyway, so I wouldn't mind it being "magic"
2018-11-01T19:04:35Z jcowan: It's the only way to write ad hoc polymorphic code in dynamically typed languages.
2018-11-01T19:04:41Z ManDay: (I've never had any use for introspection and in the few cases I could need it, like polymorphic functions, I wouldn't mind just fixing it manually like (poly-func 'run-in-pair-mode some-pair)
2018-11-01T19:04:55Z jcowan: How would that work?
2018-11-01T19:05:03Z jcowan: You need the equivalent of type case.
2018-11-01T19:05:13Z Zipheir: ManDay: Introspection isn't really the right term for predicates like pair?. Type predicates are how Scheme does typing, and don't provide any information about the internals of the value.
2018-11-01T19:05:23Z ManDay: jcowan: Hm? Well, the function has been given the type explicly through the 'run-in-pair-mode
2018-11-01T19:06:16Z ManDay: personally, I'm just never to hardly-ever writing polymorphic code
2018-11-01T19:06:17Z jcowan: Well, it is, in the same sense that object identity (which Scheme mostly has) is introspective.  Truly non-introspective languages only have values, not objects.
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2018-11-01T19:07:18Z jcowan: Scheme is mostly monomorphic, but it would be Very Bad if applying 'car to something you thought was a pair, but was actually some other kind of procedure, worked.
2018-11-01T19:07:31Z jcowan: (monomorphic functions, not variables)
2018-11-01T19:08:07Z jcowan: There is some universal polymorphism like car cdr cons, who don't care what their arguments are, and some universal-by-cases polymorphism, like write.
2018-11-01T19:08:10Z Zipheir: That makes sense.
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2018-11-01T19:13:12Z Zipheir: And conceivably a 'dynamically-typed' language without type predicates could work just fine.
2018-11-01T19:13:42Z Zipheir: Though it might be hard to ensure that functions wouldn't blow up in your face at runtime.
2018-11-01T19:17:15Z jcowan: It's not so much that.  If you get the car of a pair by passing the token 'car to it, what would happen if you instead passed 'car to a procedure that turned out to be write?
2018-11-01T19:18:07Z ManDay: gun, foot, shoot.
2018-11-01T19:18:57Z ManDay: never run any scheme program in an environemt with valuable things in it
2018-11-01T19:19:16Z ManDay: :-P
2018-11-01T19:19:27Z ManDay: Anyway, thanks for the talk  good night ^^
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2018-11-01T19:23:01Z jcowan: Scheme is strongly dynamically typed, whereas a language with only procedures would be in effect weakly dynamically typed, like assembly language
2018-11-01T19:23:07Z jcowan: (C is weakly statically typed)
2018-11-01T19:23:13Z Zipheir: jcowan: But you're talking about the implementation of types, right? When would a user of the language get into that situation?
2018-11-01T19:23:42Z jcowan: Whenever he says (car x) and x turns out not to be a pair
2018-11-01T19:24:27Z Zipheir: Right, so provided the implementation can distinguish types, this is just an error, presumably.
2018-11-01T19:24:50Z jcowan: But if the procedures are Scheme procedures, they only understand procedure? and apply.
2018-11-01T19:25:17Z Zipheir: Ah, that.
2018-11-01T19:27:53Z jcowan: this is why historic uses of procedures-as-objects have usually involved a "send" procedure rather than invoking the object directly
2018-11-01T19:28:04Z jcowan: (send proc 'message . args)
2018-11-01T19:28:31Z jcowan: I have been thinking about how to do records-as-procedures, such that you can get/set their slots but also invoke them directly
2018-11-01T19:28:43Z Zipheir: Clearly I need to learn more about real Scheme implementations. :-/
2018-11-01T19:29:06Z jcowan: the bad bit is that they either need a variable number of arguments, which is inefficient,
2018-11-01T19:29:15Z jcowan: or a minimum of two arguments, which is ugh.
2018-11-01T19:29:47Z Zipheir: That is a very interesting idea, though.
2018-11-01T19:30:00Z jcowan: So you can call the proc with (proc 'get-slot1) and (proc 'set-slot1 newval) as well as with its normal arguments
2018-11-01T19:30:01Z gwatt: jcowan: wouldn't you only need 1 or 2 arguments?
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2018-11-01T19:30:20Z jcowan: Then you filter those calls out and do the rest of the body
2018-11-01T19:30:49Z jcowan: (of course you don't use symbols, you use inaccessible uniques: gensyms, pairs, or my favorite, strings made by string-copy)
2018-11-01T19:42:36Z Zipheir: Would there be some standard interpretation of what it means to apply a record value?
2018-11-01T19:43:14Z Zipheir: Or would there be some special applicative record type?
2018-11-01T19:44:10Z jcowan: no, something like this:  (define-object-type (arg ...) <define-record-type-junk>)
2018-11-01T19:44:44Z jcowan: so you get a constructor which returns a procedure
2018-11-01T19:45:10Z jcowan: and then the predicate, getters, and setters call the proc with magic arguments
2018-11-01T19:45:17Z jcowan: ... oh, wait ...
2018-11-01T19:45:25Z Zipheir: Oh, ok.
2018-11-01T19:45:49Z jcowan: (define-applicable-record-type (<define-record-type-junk>) (arg ...) . body)
2018-11-01T19:45:53Z jcowan: that's mroe like it
2018-11-01T19:46:22Z Zipheir: Yeah, that's sort of what I imagined.
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2018-11-01T20:05:43Z jcowan: the trick, as I say, is what happens when there are fewer than 2 args
2018-11-01T20:05:58Z jcowan: given that the setter, getter, etc. are overloaded on the ordinary args
2018-11-01T20:06:28Z jcowan: it can be done by making the lambda variable-number-of-args, but at the cost of consing up a list every time you invoke it
2018-11-01T20:14:36Z Zipheir: So after define-applicable-record-type[-ing] a type rec, (make-rec ...) would return a procedure, but that procedure would also behave as a getter/setter for the slots of rec?
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2018-11-01T20:19:32Z Zipheir: e.g. if I define a simple point type, (let ((p (make-point 2 3))) (p <magic-symbol-for-slot-1>)) => 2
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2018-11-01T20:28:13Z Zipheir: No, that's wrong. (point-x p) would simply translate to (p <magic>).
2018-11-01T20:30:22Z Zipheir: Whereas (p arg1 ... argn) should call the procedure with body <body> defined by define-applicable-record-type, IIUC.
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2018-11-01T22:40:09Z jcowan: Zipheir: right
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2018-11-01T23:47:25Z Zipheir: So the one argument case would just be the 'getter', no? (point-x p) => (p <slot1-gensym>)
2018-11-01T23:48:12Z Zipheir: I guess the question is whether there is any sane reason for an applicable record to be applied to 0 arguments. Intuitively it seems there wouldn't be.
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2018-11-01T23:53:29Z gwatt: The only sensible thing would be to return itself
2018-11-01T23:55:17Z Zipheir: A procedure that returns itself?
2018-11-01T23:55:32Z gwatt: sure
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2018-11-02T00:01:26Z rain2: why not error
2018-11-02T00:01:38Z gwatt: that also is fine.
2018-11-02T00:01:49Z gwatt: I meant the only sensible non-error
2018-11-02T00:02:10Z rain2: ah
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2018-11-02T00:09:00Z jcowan: One point I hadn't considered is that these applicable-records should probably have access to thenselves in the body, so they can call their own getters and setters
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2018-11-02T00:11:25Z Zipheir: Yes, indeed.
2018-11-02T00:11:36Z Zipheir: "Scope is everything" --Dan Friedman
2018-11-02T00:11:56Z gwatt: That doesn't appear to be necessary
2018-11-02T00:12:05Z Zipheir: Why not?
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2018-11-02T00:13:06Z Zipheir: If you can't access/mutate the record value, the idea becomes sort of a with-record hook
2018-11-02T00:13:47Z gwatt: https://pastebin.com/BWDuUamq
2018-11-02T00:13:57Z gwatt: That's what I came up with
2018-11-02T00:14:48Z rain2: I like it
2018-11-02T00:15:05Z rain2: why don't we make a gensym for each record type and (r) returns it
2018-11-02T00:15:15Z rain2: so you can tell a and b are the same type of record using (eq? (a) (b))
2018-11-02T00:15:18Z Zipheir: Sure, but that doesn't deal with the procedure defined in (define-applicable-record-type (<define-record-type-junk>) (arg ...) . body)
2018-11-02T00:15:51Z rain2: or just return rec-name
2018-11-02T00:17:02Z Zipheir: gwatt: If <body> can't access the members of the record value it's associated with, what's the point of so associating it?
2018-11-02T00:17:21Z gwatt: Zipheir: You're right, but what is going in body at all?
2018-11-02T00:19:35Z Zipheir: This discussion started with record-as-procedures: < jcowan> "... such that you can get/set their slots but also invoke them directly"
2018-11-02T00:24:01Z Zipheir: So with a record value rec, (rec <magic-slot-symbol>) would be a getter and (rec <magic-slot-symbol> value) a setter, but (rec arg1 ... argn) would bind arg1 ... argn and evaluate <body> in some scope, which would hopefully include rec.
2018-11-02T00:27:59Z Zipheir: (iiuc)
2018-11-02T00:28:43Z gwatt: hmm
2018-11-02T00:31:24Z gwatt: would body also have rec's fields in scope? or is it only rec itself?
2018-11-02T00:33:03Z Zipheir: Just rec itself, I imagine--because the rec procedure is the getter/setter for all its fields, that gives you everything you need.
2018-11-02T00:34:16Z Zipheir: (although you'd need to use rec-foo, rec-foo-set! in order to get access to the magic cookie for field foo)
2018-11-02T00:34:59Z gwatt: I'm not understanding what's special about the (arg ...) and body. Since you have your record already, you can do whatever you want with it
2018-11-02T00:36:23Z Zipheir: Hmm.
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2018-11-02T01:40:11Z dTal: Scheme is so weird
2018-11-02T01:40:21Z aeth: no
2018-11-02T01:40:46Z dTal: Complex numbers? Full language support. Bignums, rationals? All built in.
2018-11-02T01:41:11Z dTal: An elementary "range" function? Write it yourself you lazy bum.
2018-11-02T01:41:33Z dTal: (Or load a library)
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2018-11-02T01:43:17Z aeth: 1+4i is OK, but I want to know why I can't do 1+4i+16j+64k
2018-11-02T01:44:09Z aeth: Complex numbers are so 20th century, quaternions are the new cool thing
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2018-11-02T01:54:54Z aeth: dTal: I think Scheme's written the way it's written because it wants to be a sort of minimal core language that can be extended.
2018-11-02T01:55:36Z aeth: dTal: You can't really build the numeric tower if it's not provided because (1) it would be much slower and (2) +, -, *, /, etc., cheat and are generic even though nothing in Scheme is generic.
2018-11-02T01:57:43Z dTal: Well, the first objection applies to any functionality that's not built-in.
2018-11-02T01:58:16Z aeth: Interestingly, though, bignums are enough to in a few hundred lines get (slow) arbitrary-precision decimal floating point (store the integer, the exponent, and the precision and manipulate the integer and exponent sides keeping the integer to be precision long), but you can't actually call the procedures for this new object +, -, *, /, etc.
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2018-11-02T01:59:12Z aeth: dTal: There are some things that the small core doesn't really equip you to implement. Hash tables, for instance.
2018-11-02T01:59:42Z aeth: (at least not efficiently)
2018-11-02T02:00:32Z dTal: I feel like, for the schemeish philosophy to actually *work* well, the bits you add need to be able to be just as fast as the parts that are built in.
2018-11-02T02:00:56Z dTal: Tying the language primitives so heavily to linked lists seem to me to be a misstep, from that perspective.
2018-11-02T02:03:29Z aeth: I agree, but that's less and less the case. e.g. You can use vectors.
2018-11-02T02:03:39Z aeth: It's really the syntax that has to be lists, since you're going to be randomly splicing things around
2018-11-02T02:04:06Z aeth: But Schemers probably overuse lists more than most Lisps.
2018-11-02T02:04:14Z dTal: Culturally, s-expressions are utterly tied to linked lists, cons and friends. But there's no technical reason why the syntax lists themselves couldn't be vectors. That's just not The Way It's Done.
2018-11-02T02:04:55Z dTal: Not in Scheme, anyway.
2018-11-02T02:04:56Z aeth: Macros are compile time and compilation is fast enough. You don't have to touch lists at all in runtime.
2018-11-02T02:05:16Z aeth: But you don't want vectors because with macros you're splicing things into the middle
2018-11-02T02:05:42Z aeth: stuff like `(foo ,@bar ,baz)
2018-11-02T02:05:55Z dTal: Good point.
2018-11-02T02:06:17Z aeth: It's possible there's an exotic data structure that would work well with the two quasiquote operations (,@ and ,)
2018-11-02T02:06:39Z aeth: That might work for some lisps, but that's probably not minimalist enough for Scheme
2018-11-02T02:07:47Z aeth: But I find myself not really liking lists in runtime.
2018-11-02T02:08:23Z aeth: Usually you want something like a struct (called a record in Scheme) or a vector or a hash table, etc.
2018-11-02T02:09:03Z dTal: I shall have to make an effort to use more appropriate data structures. I always end up using lists.
2018-11-02T02:09:12Z aeth: Culturally, lists are way overused
2018-11-02T02:09:34Z aeth: The famous Worse is Better essay mentioned it as a problem way back in 1991
2018-11-02T02:09:43Z dTal: But I think very heavily in what Scheme calls 'vectors'. My favorite paradigm is array-functional a la APL or Numpy
2018-11-02T02:09:44Z aeth: 2.2.4. http://dreamsongs.com/WIB.html
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2018-11-02T02:10:28Z aeth: "What’s worse is that in the particular application, the matrices were all fixed size, and matrix arithmetic would have been just as fast in Lisp as in FORTRAN."
2018-11-02T02:11:18Z dTal: I think I read that once
2018-11-02T02:11:20Z aeth: A nice middle ground is to write macros to automatically convert lists to more appropriate data structures.
2018-11-02T02:12:01Z aeth: You're working with lists-as-syntax in that case.
2018-11-02T02:12:37Z Zipheir: The horror.
2018-11-02T02:12:38Z aeth: Racket makes conses immutable to try to solve this problem (lists being used even when they're not appropriate) in a fancier way.
2018-11-02T02:13:23Z jcowan: dTal: In that case SRFI 122 should be your friends
2018-11-02T02:13:37Z aeth: You can't assume standard mutable conses in Common Lisp or Scheme have any fancy optimizations going on, though.
2018-11-02T02:15:41Z aeth: I'm considering implementing BLAS or something like it in Common Lisp. It doesn't seem like that much. (LAPACK, on the other hand, seems like it's where the majority of the work is. That might have to be mechanically translated with something more optimized than f2cl.)
2018-11-02T02:15:49Z Zipheir: The great thing about lists is (a) they are the simplest inductively-defined type, which makes them easy to reason about, and (b) list operations actually have pretty good time complexity for a wide range of applications.
2018-11-02T02:15:58Z aeth: The nature of BLAS would make it very easy to CLFFI into from cl-scheme
2018-11-02T02:17:14Z aeth: Zipheir: lists are when you want to splice random things in the middle (quasiquotation is a good example) or do a bunch of substitutions (again, common in macros) or you want to iterate over something in order (like source code once it's finished with all the macro stuff)
2018-11-02T02:17:35Z aeth: (by substitutions I mean substitutions that could change the element count)
2018-11-02T02:17:42Z aeth: (so insert/delete)
2018-11-02T02:17:58Z Zipheir: aeth: Those are some uses of lists, yes.
2018-11-02T02:18:41Z aeth: You shouldn't use alists (or, if available, plists) over hash-tables. Not even when there's small enough elements where arguably it's faster. Imo that's microoptimization.
2018-11-02T02:19:00Z aeth: You should use alists (using that because they're more idiomatic for Scheme) when you want to iterate over a key/value thing
2018-11-02T02:19:06Z aeth: Configuration files, for instance.
2018-11-02T02:19:21Z Zipheir: No-one said alists are a great use of lists.
2018-11-02T02:19:27Z aeth: eh
2018-11-02T02:19:57Z aeth: You underestimate how common it is for Lispers and Schemers to overuse lists just because all of the introductory material is really preparing you to write macros.
2018-11-02T02:20:05Z aeth: A lot of people get the impression that everything's a list.
2018-11-02T02:20:16Z aeth: (More correctly, nearly everything syntactically is a list)
2018-11-02T02:21:03Z Zipheir: Fair enough.
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2018-11-02T02:24:24Z Zipheir: But it's impressive how O(1) car/cdr and O(n) access to any element, combined with the low space complexity and simple structure of lists, makes it a nice type.
2018-11-02T02:24:35Z aeth: You should treat Scheme or Lisp like any other programming language and use whatever data structure you'd use in another language (within reason) rather than overuse lists.
2018-11-02T02:24:39Z aeth: That was my point.
2018-11-02T02:25:15Z aeth: Lists do exist in other languages. :-)
2018-11-02T02:25:23Z aeth: Sorry for communicating it poorly.
2018-11-02T02:25:30Z Zipheir: Sure.
2018-11-02T02:27:33Z Zipheir: That you can build a language with only one type does not imply that it's the right tool for every job.
2018-11-02T02:27:40Z Zipheir: *glares at Lua*
2018-11-02T02:28:22Z aeth: Right
2018-11-02T02:29:18Z aeth: I'd describe Lua as "You know those newbies who misunderstand Lisp/Scheme and think every data structure is a list when it's really all syntax that's a list? They... actually made a language based on that misunderstanding, but with hash tables."
2018-11-02T02:29:31Z aeth: Inspired by a misunderstanding!
2018-11-02T02:29:38Z aeth: And it doesn't even (afaik) use tables for its syntax!
2018-11-02T02:31:52Z Zipheir: Yeah, that's probably close to correct, given how they tried to disguise the table type as various random structures from other languages using industrial amounts of sugar.
2018-11-02T02:32:56Z Zipheir: "Look it's an object! Look it's a vector! Look, they're all actually just associative arrays! Yes, this is a complete mess!"
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2018-11-02T02:37:18Z Zipheir: You might summarize the different philosophies as: Lisp--one syntax, many types makes for a simpler language. Lua--one type, many syntaxes makes programmers from different backgrounds more comfortable.
2018-11-02T02:37:54Z Zipheir: (or something, I'm not sure what Lua's modus operandi is, reall)
2018-11-02T02:37:58Z Zipheir: s/reall/&y/
2018-11-02T02:38:24Z aeth: yeah
2018-11-02T02:38:31Z aeth: And Lua's syntax is... too minimal
2018-11-02T02:39:10Z aeth: Either you provide me with += or you give me the ability to implement it myself (Common Lisp actually does both since it has define-modify-macro, useful for making something like multf)
2018-11-02T02:39:31Z aeth: I don't like tying this_descriptive_variable_name = this_descriptive_variable_name 1
2018-11-02T02:39:34Z aeth: *typing
2018-11-02T02:39:40Z aeth: See? It was too much for me to not have a typo there
2018-11-02T02:40:39Z aeth: What's funny though is even though Common Lisp has incf, I rarely use it. In something like Lua, I need += a million times more than a language that *gives* me a += equivalent
2018-11-02T02:40:58Z Zipheir: It's an expressively-challenged language, to be sure.
2018-11-02T02:43:03Z Zipheir: It says something about a language when its designers dismissed Lisp for having 'unfriendly' syntax. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lua_(programming_language)#History
2018-11-02T02:43:56Z Zipheir: (And when the reference text written by said designers about said language reads like a bunch of gobbledygook.)
2018-11-02T02:44:04Z aeth: The main nitpicking detail that Lua does wrong though is being a 1-based language in a language designed primarily to be used as a scripting language embedded within C and C++ applications!
2018-11-02T02:44:13Z aeth: That's asking for off-by-one errors!
2018-11-02T02:44:19Z aeth: (And it happens all of the time!)
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2018-11-02T02:44:55Z Zipheir: Yes.
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2018-11-02T02:49:25Z Zipheir: There are several projects using Lua that I would like to convince to use Chibi, or some other nice embedded Scheme.
2018-11-02T02:54:42Z aeth: no
2018-11-02T02:54:59Z aeth: The only acceptable embedded scripting language is miniKanren in Scheme in ECL
2018-11-02T02:55:18Z Zipheir: Hah
2018-11-02T02:55:18Z aeth: But, really, miniKanren shines best when you use it to write your own scripting language
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2018-11-02T02:58:13Z oats: hi y'all. How do modern lisp interpreters get around stack size limits when doing lots of recursion?
2018-11-02T02:58:46Z oats: I have a toy scheme-like thing that I've been playing with, and it's prone to stack overflows if the recursion gets a little too deep
2018-11-02T03:10:15Z aeth: Schemes in particular usually optimize tail calls
2018-11-02T03:10:32Z aeth: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tail_call#Implementation_methods
2018-11-02T03:10:39Z aeth: not every lisp is interpreted though
2018-11-02T03:11:29Z oats: does tail-call optimization only work if the recursive call is the innermost proc call?
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2018-11-02T03:14:24Z aeth: it needs to be in the tail position
2018-11-02T03:14:50Z aeth: I think it's actually outermost on a return line.
2018-11-02T03:15:10Z aeth: A bit tricky to spot because of the lack of an explicit return
2018-11-02T03:18:16Z Zipheir: oats: Steele's "Lambda: The Ultimate GOTO" is the classic here https://dspace.mit.edu/bitstream/handle/1721.1/5753/AIM-443.pdf
2018-11-02T03:18:29Z aeth: the obvious one to spot is (define (loop) (loop))
2018-11-02T03:18:42Z aeth: Just an infinite loop that shouldn't stack overflow
2018-11-02T03:18:56Z aeth: That's the simplest you can get.
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2018-11-02T03:19:18Z fizzie: Standards-compliant Schemes in particular have to do it: https://schemers.org/Documents/Standards/R5RS/HTML/r5rs-Z-H-6.html#%_sec_3.5
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2018-11-02T03:19:27Z aeth: It would look something like (defun loop () (loop)) if your Lisp has more CL-inspired syntax for definition
2018-11-02T03:19:40Z oats: I'm not sure what defines the "tail" of a function call; I'm still kinda new to lisp
2018-11-02T03:20:00Z oats: in an imperative lanugage it's obvious, it's just the last line of a function
2018-11-02T03:20:08Z aeth: well, no
2018-11-02T03:20:28Z aeth: In most imperative languages it'd be any line that has "return foo();" where foo() is the name of the function
2018-11-02T03:20:39Z aeth: That's why I said return makes it easy to spot
2018-11-02T03:20:42Z oats: sorry, yeah, that's what I meant
2018-11-02T03:20:56Z aeth: (You can also optimize tail recursion where a calls b which calls a which calls b...)
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2018-11-02T03:21:26Z oats: aeth: that might actually apply to my toy scheme nicely
2018-11-02T03:21:52Z Zipheir: oats: A tail call is a procedure call in which there's no expression to evaluate that uses the value of the call. (define (foo x) ... (+ 2 (foo (+ x 1)))) isn't a tail call, but (define (foo x) ... (foo (+ x 2))) is.
2018-11-02T03:22:02Z oats: evaluation of an expression is a very recursive process, but there might be 1-2 other functions in between a recursive call
2018-11-02T03:22:50Z oats: Zipheir: that makes sense, thanks
2018-11-02T03:23:33Z oats: I actually have my code up on github, here's where the evaluation process starts: https://github.com/oatberry/lisprs/blob/master/src/eval.rs
2018-11-02T03:23:34Z Zipheir: oats: In a nutshell, you're passing all the info needed to get a value in the procedure call. So you can just optimize that to a GOTO.
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2018-11-02T04:38:40Z siraben: What papers do I read to understand how to implement tail call optimization?
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2018-11-02T04:40:43Z Riastradh: So (1 - t) a + t b has O(epsilon) relative error as long as ab > 0, but it is monotonic in general only if ab < 0.  a + (b - a) t is monotonic when ab > 0, but has relative error bounded only by O(epsilon (b - a)/b) unless there's a trick I'm not seeing.  Bummer.
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2018-11-02T04:43:29Z Riastradh: (Lerp is ill-conditioned near zero, so nothing has good forward error when ab < 0.)
2018-11-02T04:50:11Z ggole: siraben: the details depend on your implementation
2018-11-02T04:51:16Z ggole: In the worst case the object platform doesn't meaningfully support tail calls and you probably need some kind of trampoline
2018-11-02T04:51:56Z ggole: The easiest case is probably a CPS compiler, for which TCO is simple copy propagation
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2018-11-02T10:53:41Z rain2: that isn't true
2018-11-02T10:53:43Z rain2: tail calls are not goto
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2018-11-02T11:41:10Z qu1j0t3: rain2: can you explain what you mean? they are often compiled to jumps
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2018-11-02T15:13:02Z jcowan: rename + goto, more precisely
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2018-11-02T15:13:39Z dTal: it's like goto, but with scoped variables and explicitely passed state
2018-11-02T15:14:25Z dTal: i.e. not really much like goto
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2018-11-02T15:14:58Z jcowan: Internally, Lua optimizes for the case when keys are positive integers inu a small range
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2018-11-02T15:47:27Z jcowan: siraben: It depends on your strategy for implementing non-tail calls.  The basic idea is to reuse the call frame on the stack, if you have a stack, or to drop the current call frame from the call-frame list in the heap and substitute the new one, if you keep the stack that way.
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2018-11-02T16:02:40Z Zipheir: siraben: It's also helpful to see how CPS and TCO fit together, since that was the tack Steele & Sussman took with early Schemes. The way those two techniques interact is so beautiful.
2018-11-02T16:06:30Z siraben: Does conversion to CPS imply TCO?
2018-11-02T16:06:53Z siraben: Or I guess not because the continuation is being passed around and would be growing, rather than remaining constnat.
2018-11-02T16:06:56Z siraben: constant
2018-11-02T16:06:56Z Zipheir: siraben: (I'm still mainly lurking your question to see if someone recommends some good papers :))
2018-11-02T16:07:20Z Zipheir: Well, with CPS _every_ call becomes a tail call...
2018-11-02T16:15:31Z siraben: Right.  But TCO means that I could have something like (define (loop) (loop))  then running (loop) would repeat forever.
2018-11-02T16:15:32Z siraben: Does the CPS conversion of (loop) allow that?
2018-11-02T16:15:53Z siraben: i.e. (loop) would be able to all itself forever, without any extra memory being used and so on.
2018-11-02T16:16:43Z Zipheir: Sure, if you optimize the tail call it would of course just be a jump.
2018-11-02T16:17:36Z Zipheir: Reynolds' paper on the discoveries of continuations is a good read http://homepages.inf.ed.ac.uk/wadler/papers/papers-we-love/reynolds-discoveries.pdf
2018-11-02T16:17:39Z Zipheir: ^^ siraben
2018-11-02T16:18:52Z siraben: Doesn't CPS pass a continuation to the tail call?
2018-11-02T16:19:08Z Zipheir: There's a good quote of a discussion where McIlroy (yes, that McIlroy of UNIX pipe fame) says to Wijngaarden "but but the stack!" and Wijngaarden just explains tail call optimization to him in like 5 sentences.
2018-11-02T16:19:25Z Zipheir: (But everyone ignored the idea for another 15 years. Oh well.)
2018-11-02T16:20:32Z Zipheir: siraben: Yeah, but remember, the continuation is basically just a label to jump to.
2018-11-02T16:20:46Z siraben: Right.  I see.
2018-11-02T16:20:59Z Zipheir: It's _beautiful_ how that works out.
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2018-11-02T16:31:38Z ggole: CPS conversion alone does not achieve TCO. Copy propagation in CPS does.
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2018-11-02T16:34:47Z ventonegro: The purpose of CPS is not to enable TCO. It is to make every call a tail call.
2018-11-02T16:34:56Z siraben: Right.
2018-11-02T16:35:05Z siraben: What's copy propagation?
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2018-11-02T16:37:25Z ggole: It's when you discover that a variable a always has the value of another variable b, so you replace all mentions of a with b (and eliminate a).
2018-11-02T16:37:38Z siraben: I see.
2018-11-02T16:37:51Z ggole: In this case the variables name continuations rather than more typical values.
2018-11-02T16:37:56Z siraben: Sounds like a form of partial evaluation?
2018-11-02T16:38:13Z siraben: (define a 5), (+ a 3) =>  (+ 5 3)
2018-11-02T16:38:16Z siraben: etc.
2018-11-02T16:38:46Z ggole: You could view it that way, yes.
2018-11-02T16:39:30Z Zipheir: ggole: How does that apply to tail calls?
2018-11-02T16:39:39Z ggole: Anyway, my point was *not* that you should (or should not) use CPS. It was that the best way of implementing TCO depends on your implementation.
2018-11-02T16:40:05Z siraben: I see.  What if I want to learn about how to implement it myself?
2018-11-02T16:40:10Z ggole: After all, if you are paying all the costs for using CPS, you might as well get TCO for free while you are at it.
2018-11-02T16:40:40Z ggole: Zipheir: tail calls are exactly the ones for which you can forward the continuation argument.
2018-11-02T16:41:38Z ggole: siraben: you could try Appel's Compiling with Continuations book
2018-11-02T16:42:05Z ggole: Copy propagation itself is described almost everywhere, but of course it won't do you any good unless you are using CPS
2018-11-02T16:42:20Z Zipheir: Most of the books on the subject are out-of-print or super expensive, sadly.
2018-11-02T16:42:30Z siraben: Strange.
2018-11-02T16:43:02Z siraben: I'll read Compiling with Continuations.  Seems a lot more approachable with knowledge of Standard ML.
2018-11-02T16:45:22Z ggole: It's worth reading even if you don't use CPS, just to see how the approach works out
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2018-11-02T16:46:17Z Zipheir: siraben: Also, Matt Might's post on CPS is short but good http://matt.might.net/articles/cps-conversion/
2018-11-02T16:51:15Z siraben: Zipheir: i'll take a look, thanks!
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2018-11-02T17:17:47Z Zipheir: The state of the programming world's priorities is such that we have 5,000,000 books on writing garbage Web apps and only a couple of out-of-print $90.00 books on compilation. Grr.
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2018-11-02T17:21:40Z on_ion: so -- there are programs (books) for people to be programs that make programs. true coders think for themselves dont need that much books to get programmed with if they are programmers themselves.
2018-11-02T17:21:54Z on_ion: imo
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2018-11-02T17:25:09Z qu1j0t3: you can't recapitulate computer science in your basement.
2018-11-02T17:25:18Z qu1j0t3: eventually you'll need an idea that was invented by someone else.
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2018-11-02T17:26:50Z on_ion: true
2018-11-02T17:28:24Z Zipheir: on_ion: Well, true programmers also set the initial constants of the universe such that the program they want appears on their laptop's hard disk.
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2018-11-02T17:29:45Z Zipheir: on_ion: Compilation is just hard and not nearly as profitable as writing the next Angry Birds.
2018-11-02T17:30:07Z on_ion: hrm also true =)
2018-11-02T17:30:32Z on_ion: more fulfilling, more beneficial
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2018-11-02T17:46:54Z Zipheir: Also, if books are programs, they run on the human brain and their results are highly non-deterministic. :)
2018-11-02T17:48:40Z Zipheir: (From our perspective, at least. Maybe a higher intelligence would have seen immediately that giving a certain Austrian ex-art student a copy of Also Sprach Zarathustra would be a Bad Thing.)
2018-11-02T17:51:00Z jcowan: Then again, maybe higher intelligences can see which programs halt by sheer intuition.
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2018-11-02T18:14:38Z on_ion: hmm. =) prolog
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2018-11-02T18:31:23Z ski . o O ( Sturgeon's law )
2018-11-02T18:35:22Z ski: re CPS, perhaps "Representing control: a study of the CPS transformation" in 1992 at <http://hjemmesider.diku.dk/~andrzej/papers/RC.ps.gz>,"Abstracting Control" in 1990 at <http://hjemmesider.diku.dk/~andrzej/papers/AC.ps.gz>, both by Andrzej Filinski,Olivier Danvy, could be interesting
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2018-11-02T18:52:58Z Zipheir: ski: ty!
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2018-11-02T20:44:36Z rain2: >CPS conversion alone does not achieve TCO. Copy propagation in CPS does.
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2018-11-02T20:44:41Z rain2: just wanted to point out this is not correct
2018-11-02T20:44:51Z rain2: you don't need to do copy propagation
2018-11-02T20:45:10Z rain2: if you CPS transform then you need to implement all calls as tail calls to get proper TCO
2018-11-02T20:46:01Z rain2: non tail calls will extend the continuation before doing a tail call, that corresponds to stack frame growth
2018-11-02T20:46:25Z rain2: I would also say that CPS is a very difficult route to take for writing a compiler
2018-11-02T20:48:37Z rain2: https://rain-1.github.io/scheme you can read some details about my scheme compiler if you like, it works by compiling to stack and optimizing tail calls specifically. instead of using CPS which gets you TCO implicitly.
2018-11-02T20:49:01Z rain2: the flatten & assemble pass is the main one to look at regarding TCO
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2018-11-02T21:38:00Z Zipheir: < rain2> CPS is a very difficult route to take
2018-11-02T21:38:08Z Zipheir: A lot of Scheme luminaries disagree with that.
2018-11-02T21:38:18Z rain2: no they dont
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2018-11-02T21:40:06Z Zipheir: Matt Might, Felix Winkelmann, Olin Shivers, Steele & Sussman <-- all people very much pro-CPS
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2018-11-02T21:42:58Z rain2: http://www.ccs.neu.edu/home/shivers/papers/diss.pdf section 2.1 and 2.1.2
2018-11-02T21:43:10Z Zipheir: "In terms of unreasonable effectiveness, the transformation to CPS ranks with the Y combinator." --Matt Might
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2018-11-02T21:45:45Z Zipheir: rain2: Good stuff. But he seems to argue that the hard thing to get right is lambda, not CPS.
2018-11-02T21:46:00Z rain2: yeah
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2018-11-02T22:08:12Z jcowan: Zipheir: You need to do a case analysis on different kinds of lambdas to decide how to implement them.  Dybvig's discussion of strategies is quite accessible.  A little more dense, but not that much, is http://lampwww.epfl.ch/teaching/archive/advanced_compiler/2006/assignments/part5/continuations.pdf
2018-11-02T22:09:17Z jcowan: http://agl.cs.unm.edu/~williams/cs491/three-imp.pdf is the Dybvig I mentioned; long, but clear.
2018-11-02T22:14:39Z Zipheir: jcowan: ty, these look very informative!
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2018-11-02T22:19:44Z jcowan: Reading people's theses, if you are not scared of lots of pages, is often a huge win, because they have to be written to make sense to old farts^W^Wtenured professors.
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2018-11-03T00:41:32Z siraben: What's the purpose of performing a CPS transformation twice?
2018-11-03T00:41:56Z siraben: Will Byrd said that it can give rise to every possible control structure at that point
2018-11-03T00:43:10Z ski: in the presence of delimited / composable / partial / sub- continuations, after "CPS transformation" we arrive at nqCPS (not-quite-CPS), so if we CPS transform once more, all calls are now tail calls
2018-11-03T00:43:38Z ski: (well, with multi-prompt ones, i assume we may need to iterate. but i'm not as familiar with those)
2018-11-03T00:44:03Z ski: link to where Byrd said that ?
2018-11-03T00:45:01Z siraben: His lecture "The Most Beautiful Program Ever Written"
2018-11-03T00:45:08Z ski once did a prototype implementation which used arbitrarily nested CPS layers ..
2018-11-03T00:46:05Z rain2: there's a hierearchy of integer indexed shift/reset operators based on iterated CPS
2018-11-03T00:46:20Z rain2: but the regular multi-prompt shift/reset is different to that
2018-11-03T00:47:18Z ski: yes (i was only talking about a single `shift'/`reset' layer, above)
2018-11-03T00:49:45Z ski: (.. the purpose of nesting CPS there was to be able to implement goal implication in logic programming, in a way that could export information, rather than just answer "yes/no". in particular, left-nesting required arbitrarily deep CPS nesting. this involved being able to backtrack backtracking, to backtrack backtracking backtracking, &c. and also to flip the interpretation of logic variables and atoms (skolems))
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2018-11-03T03:04:27Z Riastradh: Correction: I think they're both bounded by a little over 2eps.
2018-11-03T03:04:57Z Riastradh: 3eps
2018-11-03T03:07:14Z Riastradh: aeth: So, I don't know what kind of numerical stability the Alexandria comment was referring to.  They're both backward-stable, in the sense that F(t; a, b) = f(t'; a', b') for (t', a', b') no more than O(eps) away from (t, a, b), though not necessarily each parameter individually, and they both have forward error bounded by O(eps) when ab >= 0.
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2018-11-03T19:03:25Z yes: hi, i tried to access one of the links in the topic and i get 403 forbidden.  http://swiss.csail.mit.edu/classes/6.001/abelson-sussman-lectures/
2018-11-03T19:04:50Z Zipheir: yes: Yes.
2018-11-03T19:04:58Z yes: seems likeit redireted to http://groups.csail.mit.edu/macclasses/6.001/abelson-sussman-lectures/
2018-11-03T19:05:01Z Zipheir: yes: The topic is badly in need of updating.
2018-11-03T19:05:16Z yes: which is forbidden.  ok, well, at least you guys know about it.
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2018-11-03T19:06:11Z Zipheir: I keep complaining about it, but I'm not even sure who has op bits to fix it...
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2018-11-03T19:50:03Z yes: well i'm glad to know that it's not just *me* who is forbidden ;)
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2018-11-03T20:31:13Z ChanServ has set mode +o Riastradh
2018-11-03T20:31:25Z Riastradh changed the topic of #scheme to: (map surf-to '("http://paste.lisp.org/new/scheme" "http://ccl.clozure.com/irc-logs/scheme/" "http://schemers.org/" "http://community.schemewiki.org/" "http://library.readscheme.org/" "http://mitpress.mit.edu/sicp/" "https://groups.csail.mit.edu/mac/classes/6.001/abelson-sussman-lectures/" "http://www.htdp.org/" "http://www.scheme.com/tspl4/"))
2018-11-03T20:31:33Z Riastradh has set mode -o Riastradh
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2018-11-03T20:32:14Z Riastradh: Lemme know if anything else needs updating in the topic.
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2018-11-03T20:50:56Z yes: cool, thanks, so it was just about ssl, eh?
2018-11-03T20:51:22Z yes: oh i see the path changed too
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2018-11-03T20:52:28Z Zipheir: Riastradh: ty! http://paste.lisp.org/new/scheme has been disabled, so maybe a good idea to get rid of that one.
2018-11-03T20:52:39Z Riastradh: Suggested replacement?
2018-11-03T20:53:05Z ChanServ has set mode +o Riastradh
2018-11-03T20:53:35Z Riastradh changed the topic of #scheme to: (map surf-to '("http://ccl.clozure.com/irc-logs/scheme/" "http://schemers.org/" "http://community.schemewiki.org/" "http://library.readscheme.org/" "http://mitpress.mit.edu/sicp/" "https://groups.csail.mit.edu/mac/classes/6.001/abelson-sussman-lectures/" "http://www.htdp.org/" "http://www.scheme.com/tspl4/"))
2018-11-03T20:54:00Z Zipheir: Anything. I personally dislike that Gist requires an account, otherwise whatever.
2018-11-03T20:54:16Z Riastradh changed the topic of #scheme to: (map surf-to '("http://ccl.clozure.com/irc-logs/scheme/" "http://schemers.org/" "http://community.schemewiki.org/" "http://library.readscheme.org/" "http://mitpress.mit.edu/sicp/" "https://groups.csail.mit.edu/mac/classes/6.001/abelson-sussman-lectures/" "http://www.htdp.org/" "http://www.scheme.com/tspl4/" "https://paste.asie.pl"))
2018-11-03T20:54:32Z Zipheir: http://paste.call-cc.org/ maybe?
2018-11-03T20:56:28Z Riastradh changed the topic of #scheme to: (map surf-to '("http://ccl.clozure.com/irc-logs/scheme/" "http://schemers.org/" "http://community.schemewiki.org/" "http://library.readscheme.org/" "http://mitpress.mit.edu/sicp/" "https://groups.csail.mit.edu/mac/classes/6.001/abelson-sussman-lectures/" "http://www.htdp.org/" "http://www.scheme.com/tspl4/" "https://paste.call-cc.org"))
2018-11-03T20:58:33Z alexshendi: That will send the URL to #chicken...
2018-11-03T20:58:52Z Riastradh: Well, tell me what to use!
2018-11-03T20:59:11Z civodul .oO( that should really be for-each )
2018-11-03T20:59:14Z Riastradh: All I ask is that it be friendly to Tor users (which some popular ones like pastebin are not), and preferably have no advertisements.
2018-11-03T20:59:30Z Riastradh: (and, y'know, no other malware, &c.)
2018-11-03T20:59:58Z Riastradh: civodul: What, so you don't return your reaction to the channel for discussion?
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2018-11-03T21:00:20Z civodul: good point :-)
2018-11-03T21:00:52Z civodul: then again, maybe it should be called 'grab' rather than 'surf-to' ;-)
2018-11-03T21:01:09Z Zipheir: alexshendi: Indeed, don't post anything to paste.call-cc.org that you wouldn't want the #chicken folks to see :)
2018-11-03T21:01:28Z Riastradh: Well, I think the topic probably goes back twenty years to when `surfing' was still a cool term for browsing the web.
2018-11-03T21:01:33Z Riastradh: (Can confirm it goes back fifteen years.)
2018-11-03T21:02:04Z Zipheir: I'd suggest the lpaste.net pastebin, but it seems to have died.
2018-11-03T21:02:27Z Zipheir: Goddamnit Gist, becoming the only game in town.
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2018-11-03T21:05:16Z Zipheir: Riastradh: Thanks again for performing topic maintenance :)
2018-11-03T21:10:40Z yes: there was a pastebin on debian.org
2018-11-03T21:11:01Z yes: but does this need to have a scheme parser built in or something?
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2018-11-03T21:11:51Z yes: i'm a total noob, #chicken is another lisp?
2018-11-03T21:12:04Z Riastradh: Chicken is a Scheme implementation.
2018-11-03T21:12:13Z yes: aha
2018-11-03T21:15:02Z wasamasa: Riastradh: it's just confusing because pastes there spawn a notification on #chicken
2018-11-03T21:15:47Z Riastradh: OK, paste.debian.net let me paste through Tor.
2018-11-03T21:15:56Z Riastradh changed the topic of #scheme to: (map surf-to '("http://ccl.clozure.com/irc-logs/scheme/" "http://schemers.org/" "http://community.schemewiki.org/" "http://library.readscheme.org/" "http://mitpress.mit.edu/sicp/" "https://groups.csail.mit.edu/mac/classes/6.001/abelson-sussman-lectures/" "http://www.htdp.org/" "http://www.scheme.com/tspl4/" "https://paste.debian.net"))
2018-11-03T21:16:36Z Riastradh: Folks want a different one, let me know.
2018-11-03T21:21:11Z Riastradh has set mode -o Riastradh
2018-11-03T21:21:59Z Zipheir: Yes, paste.debian.net is a good one.
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2018-11-04T01:49:01Z siraben: +1 for paste.debian.net
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2018-11-04T02:06:09Z AhoChan: anyone know what a "peculiar identifier" is?
2018-11-04T02:06:37Z AhoChan: from 7.1 of rnrs
2018-11-04T02:06:59Z AhoChan: it's in 4 5 6 7, and none of them seem to actually tell you what a peculiar identifier is
2018-11-04T02:07:05Z AhoChan: i only know it's peculiar o.o
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2018-11-04T02:11:17Z Riastradh: AhoChan: + - ...
2018-11-04T02:11:25Z Riastradh: (It is defined a little below.)
2018-11-04T02:11:35Z AhoChan: as in
2018-11-04T02:11:39Z AhoChan: what is it really
2018-11-04T02:11:48Z Riastradh: That's literally it.  Those three identifiers.
2018-11-04T02:12:08Z Riastradh: Plus, minus, and dotdotdot.
2018-11-04T02:12:22Z AhoChan: i don't mean what counts as a peculiar identifier, i mean what does it mean
2018-11-04T02:12:29Z Riastradh: rudybot: eval (+ 1 2)
2018-11-04T02:12:30Z rudybot: Riastradh: ; Value: 3
2018-11-04T02:12:35Z Riastradh: rudybot: eval (- 1 2)
2018-11-04T02:12:36Z rudybot: Riastradh: ; Value: -1
2018-11-04T02:13:23Z Riastradh: rudybot: eval (let-syntax ((tel (syntax-rules () ((tel ((e v) ...) b0 b1+ ...) (let ((v e) ...) b0 b1+ ...))))) (tel ((5 x) (3 y)) (list x y)))
2018-11-04T02:13:30Z rudybot: Riastradh: ; Value: (mcons 5 (mcons 3 '()))
2018-11-04T02:15:03Z AhoChan: hmm maybe a different angle
2018-11-04T02:15:24Z AhoChan: i know how to parse anything you give me and if you give me + i'll know it's a peculiar identifier
2018-11-04T02:15:31Z AhoChan: but why is it peculiar
2018-11-04T02:15:44Z Riastradh: It doesn't match the syntax for all other identifiers.
2018-11-04T02:16:15Z Riastradh: Nothing else can start with a `+' or `-' or `.'.
2018-11-04T02:16:19Z AhoChan: peculiar identifier probably isn't an established term either, couldn't find anything on google
2018-11-04T02:16:28Z Riastradh: It's just an identifier, that's peculiar.
2018-11-04T02:16:35Z AhoChan: ah it's just an identifier
2018-11-04T02:16:47Z Riastradh: I think maybe you're reading more into it than there is there!
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2018-11-04T02:17:06Z AhoChan: probably
2018-11-04T02:17:15Z AhoChan: it was really just quite peculiar
2018-11-04T02:17:16Z AhoChan: :)
2018-11-04T02:17:45Z AhoChan: thanks
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2018-11-04T02:28:48Z Zipheir: "It's just an identifier!!!" Reminds me of https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eric_and_the_Dread_Gazebo
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2018-11-04T03:00:20Z siraben: Is it possible to have a symbol called (+ 2 3) in Scheme?
2018-11-04T03:00:44Z siraben: Was reading the Emacs Lisp reference manual and it came up
2018-11-04T03:01:56Z Riastradh: '|(+ 2 3)|
2018-11-04T03:02:57Z siraben: Hm guile doesn't seem to like it
2018-11-04T03:03:26Z siraben: CHICKEN accepts it though.
2018-11-04T03:04:03Z siraben: (define |(+ 2 5)| 5), |(+ 2 3)| => 5
2018-11-04T03:04:13Z siraben: Oops I mean |(+ 2 5)| => 5
2018-11-04T03:04:48Z siraben: rudybot:  '| hi I'm a symbol |
2018-11-04T03:04:54Z siraben: rudybot:  eval '| hi I'm a symbol |
2018-11-04T03:05:09Z rudybot: siraben: Hi. I'm just trying company-mode. Since there are all backends active by default, I get tons of stupid completions. Is there a way to make it show only those completions that you'd also get with M-TAB (complete-symbol)? In many programming modes, those completion-at-point-functions already know the valid completions...
2018-11-04T03:05:19Z rudybot: siraben: error: with-limit: out of time
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2018-11-04T03:13:51Z on_ion: siraben: (quote (+ 2 3))
2018-11-04T03:14:43Z siraben: But '(+ 2 3) is not the same as the symbol |(+ 2 3)|
2018-11-04T03:15:26Z siraben: In other words, (symbol? '|(+ 2 3)|) is true.
2018-11-04T03:15:43Z siraben: Whereas (symbol? '(+ 2 3)) is not.
2018-11-04T03:15:59Z jcowan: siraben: In R6RS systems like Guile, you have to specify non-alphabetic characters with Unicode escapes rather than vertical bar wrappers
2018-11-04T03:16:18Z siraben: Chicken is R7RS?
2018-11-04T03:16:36Z jcowan: It's R5RS-plus, and happens to support vertical bars.
2018-11-04T03:16:37Z siraben: Is that why | works?
2018-11-04T03:16:42Z siraben: Oh I see.
2018-11-04T03:19:07Z on_ion: https://www.gnu.org/software/guile/manual/html_node/Symbol-Read-Syntax.html#Symbol-Read-Syntax  <- may need to enable it.
2018-11-04T03:19:22Z on_ion: "r7rs-symbols read option"
2018-11-04T03:20:22Z on_ion: (read-enable #:r7rs-symbols)
2018-11-04T03:20:52Z on_ion: i dont know the syntax.
2018-11-04T03:22:02Z on_ion: it works for me in guile now, siraben , '|(+ 2 3)| or #{(+ 2 3)}#
2018-11-04T03:24:11Z siraben: I'm guessing that using such symbols is discouraged, right?
2018-11-04T03:24:15Z siraben: Thanks on_ion , it works now.
2018-11-04T03:24:43Z on_ion: ok
2018-11-04T03:33:45Z jcowan: Oh, nice
2018-11-04T03:34:20Z jcowan: Chicken now has an R7RS mode, and even in native mode, Chicken 5 (about to be in general release) is closer to R7RS than Chicken 4 is.
2018-11-04T03:35:03Z jcowan: Someone once said that the most important achievement of R6RS was to persuade Chicken to adopt its module system, and since that is very close to the R7RS module system, Chicken has been deeply entangled with R7RS since the beginning.
2018-11-04T03:35:26Z jcowan: (The fact that it's my favorite Scheme doesn't hurt, though I am now using Chibi and Guile as well.)
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2018-11-04T03:54:19Z on_ion: yay gulie
2018-11-04T03:54:23Z on_ion: **guile.
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2018-11-04T15:35:06Z ecraven: jcowan: which is the most dynamic of the major Schemes? the one that lets you inspect and modify bindings inside packages at runtime, things like that?
2018-11-04T15:38:35Z wasamasa: rudybot: scheme, scheme on the wall, which is the most dynamic of them all
2018-11-04T15:38:59Z rudybot: wasamasa: Well, there's a strong technical argument for dynamic linking, around patch management, but it is really only compelling in a world where there's a ops/dev "wall"
2018-11-04T15:41:40Z jcowan: Good question, but I have no real idea of the answer.  If I had to guess, I'd guess either MIT (because it's old) or Racket (because it has all those debugging facilities, which must have hooks somewhere).
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2018-11-04T16:13:19Z gwatt: ecraven: as far as r6rs is concerned, you cannot modify exported bindings.
2018-11-04T16:13:45Z ecraven: I know, but I'm actually more interested in a Scheme in the spirit of CL, where you can modify a running program quite a lot
2018-11-04T16:14:05Z ecraven: (not saying it's better, I just like that approach more for evolutionary development)
2018-11-04T16:35:19Z jcowan: Well, up to a point.  In general, the CL ANS does not require that implementations recognize run-time function redefinitions with (setf symbol-function) or eval, because these may have been inlined.
2018-11-04T16:35:43Z ecraven: hm.. how does slime do this then?
2018-11-04T16:35:52Z ecraven: or do the usual implementations just not do this?
2018-11-04T16:37:22Z Riastradh: `try it and hope it works', probably.
2018-11-04T16:37:54Z wasamasa: hope-driven development
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2018-11-04T17:41:08Z ggole: CL has pretty clear rules about when the compiler has to support redefinition
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2018-11-04T22:30:59Z Zipheir: If I want to define functions in terms of passing magic values to a dispatching procedure, is there anyway to avoid the abstraction leak of defining those magic values at top-level?
2018-11-04T22:31:42Z wasamasa: do it the JS way
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2018-11-04T22:32:16Z Zipheir: So if (foo-op structure) evaluates (structure $magic-cookie), how do you write that without making $magic-cookie available to everything?
2018-11-04T22:32:48Z wasamasa: you wrap a let containing those values around the code needing to access it
2018-11-04T22:34:11Z Zipheir: Well, yes. But...
2018-11-04T22:34:31Z wasamasa: what?
2018-11-04T22:34:40Z Zipheir: One sec
2018-11-04T22:35:01Z wasamasa: put that let over lambda
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2018-11-04T22:37:16Z Zipheir: OK, example: (define (make-foo x) (let ((x-cookie (string-copy "magic")) (val x)) (lambda (msg) (cond ((eqv? msg x-cookie) x) ...))))
2018-11-04T22:38:02Z Zipheir: If I'm going to define a foo-x proc that evaluates (<foo> x-cookie), obviously it has to be defined within that let.
2018-11-04T22:38:25Z Zipheir: So what--return multiple functions when make-foo is called?
2018-11-04T22:39:44Z wasamasa: you could do that
2018-11-04T22:40:01Z wasamasa: or define the names to #f, then assign the actual functions later
2018-11-04T22:40:25Z Zipheir: That's an idea.
2018-11-04T22:44:30Z Zipheir: Thanks, wasamasa. I'll see how that works.
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2018-11-04T22:55:30Z Zipheir: Oops, that cond line should have been ((eqv? msg x-cookie) val)
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2018-11-04T22:59:33Z aeth: Zipheir: I'd absolutely go the multiple value route
2018-11-04T22:59:42Z aeth: Alternatively, return a record
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2018-11-04T23:10:27Z Zipheir: aeth: You'd need some defines eventually, though, unless you wanted to pass around the returned procedures. Might get gross.
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2018-11-04T23:13:26Z siraben: Zipheir:  How about using internal defines and returning a dispatching procedure?
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2018-11-04T23:13:47Z siraben: Ah yes that's what you did over there.
2018-11-04T23:14:06Z Zipheir: siraben: Yup,  that's not the problem. The problem is making magic values semi-private. :)
2018-11-04T23:14:23Z siraben: How so?
2018-11-04T23:14:37Z siraben: What do you mean by semi private?
2018-11-04T23:15:43Z Zipheir: Say you want to dispatch on certain magic values that are guaranteed to not be eqv? to user values. But you also don't want the abstraction to leak.
2018-11-04T23:17:23Z Zipheir: So (define $my-magic-cookie ...) won't cut it. You've got to be able to pass the magic value to the dispatching procedure, but the procedures that pass it should be opaque.
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2018-11-04T23:20:08Z Zipheir: It's actually an interesting scope question, imho.
2018-11-04T23:25:35Z Zipheir: Err, of course the procedures will be opaque. The values they pass shouldn't be accessible, I mean.
2018-11-04T23:32:33Z Zipheir: The idea comes from messing around with jcowan's idea for applicable records, e.g. you might have a record type foo where (foo-x <foo>) was implemented as (<foo> magic-cookie).
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2018-11-04T23:37:26Z siraben: I see.
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2018-11-05T00:28:49Z jcowan: Actually it would be (define (get-slot1 obj) '(obj slot-1))
2018-11-05T00:28:53Z jcowan: oops
2018-11-05T00:29:17Z jcowan: (define slot1-get '(slot-1))
2018-11-05T00:29:33Z jcowan: (define (get-slot1 obj) (obj slot1-get))
2018-11-05T00:29:47Z jcowan: and expose get-slot1 but not slot1-get through the library system
2018-11-05T00:37:50Z Zipheir: Ah, that's really nice.
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2018-11-05T00:42:14Z Riastradh: I assume you mean (list 'slot-1) or something?
2018-11-05T00:42:46Z gwatt: jcowan: what you just described doesn't seem all that different from non-applicable records
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2018-11-05T01:01:36Z jcowan: Riastradh: yes
2018-11-05T01:02:13Z jcowan: It isn't.  The point is that obj is invoked as a procedure, becquse it *is* a procedure.  If the first argument is a cookie, then it is either a get or a set; if not, it is an invokation of the body.
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2018-11-05T01:07:11Z gwatt: jcowan: you said: (define slot1-get '(slot-1)) (define (get-slot1 obj) (obj slot1-get) and expose get-slot1 but not slot1-get through the library system.
2018-11-05T01:07:29Z gwatt: How is having applicable records useful then?
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2018-11-05T01:22:54Z jcowan: You can invoke them; they are active, not just passive collections of slots.
2018-11-05T01:23:31Z jcowan: Furthermore, the body has access to the procedure itself, so it can get and set its own slots.
2018-11-05T01:32:27Z gwatt: But if slot1-get isn't exported the only interface you have it get-slot1
2018-11-05T01:33:35Z gwatt: > "the body has access to the procedure itself"
2018-11-05T01:33:58Z gwatt: Is that different from just having the applicable record in scope?
2018-11-05T01:43:47Z jcowan: No, at least I don't think so.  It's the self/this argument from OO languages
2018-11-05T01:44:16Z jcowan: so if you want to know your own slot1 you call (get-slot1 self)
2018-11-05T01:44:32Z jcowan: of course you can get the slot of any object, all slots are public
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2018-11-05T02:02:44Z Zipheir: I wonder if applicable records could be used to implement something like Haskell's record-val { slot = value } update syntax.
2018-11-05T02:16:09Z Zipheir: Given an existing record value obj, it would be cool to be able to do something like (rec '((rec-slot-foo <value>) (rec-slot-bar <value>))) and have that evaluate to an updated copy of rec.
2018-11-05T02:17:04Z Zipheir: (e.g. the equivalent of rec after (rec-foo-set! rec <value>), etc., but pure)
2018-11-05T02:17:38Z Zipheir: s/e.g./i.e./
2018-11-05T02:21:41Z gwatt: Like lenses?
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2018-11-05T02:23:13Z jcowan nods
2018-11-05T02:23:33Z Zipheir: Oh. Yes. xD
2018-11-05T02:24:40Z Zipheir: Don't mind me, just poorly re-inventing the wheel over here.
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2018-11-05T04:04:16Z Riastradh: jcowan: You should specify that floating-point operations do not trap by default.
2018-11-05T04:04:38Z Riastradh: Provide a way to make them trap if you like, but not by default.
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2018-11-05T05:34:44Z lockywolf: Friends, who uses quack.el here?
2018-11-05T05:35:29Z lockywolf: It seems to had been abandoned when plt-scheme was split from the main scheme family to create racket.
2018-11-05T05:35:41Z lockywolf: But still runs, at least partially.
2018-11-05T05:37:07Z Riastradh: Heh.  Neil used to hang out here, many years ago.
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2018-11-05T09:37:01Z oni-on-ion: is there a popular OOPS system for scheme? GOOPS for guile is rather nice
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2018-11-05T12:07:17Z nlyy: why are lists represented as enclosed in parens?
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2018-11-05T12:17:10Z jcowan: nlyy: Because there were no other paired characters easily available in 1958.
2018-11-05T12:17:50Z jcowan: oni-on-ion: Way too many, that's the problem, and why as R7RS-large chair I have ruled out standardizing one.  Everyone in Scheme rolls their own, since it's very easy to do so:  the Curse of LIsp.
2018-11-05T12:22:10Z nlyy: thanks
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2018-11-05T12:51:01Z lockywolf_: Well, it's possible to use GObject from C++
2018-11-05T12:51:32Z lockywolf_: Although it is not possible to inherit a C++ object from a GObject*
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2018-11-05T13:03:30Z jcowan: oni-on-ion: However, the best part of OOP is generic functions, and I hope those will be part of R7RS-large
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2018-11-05T13:14:36Z lockywolf__: When is the second draft of R7RS-large planned?
2018-11-05T13:15:32Z lockywolf__: When it's done?
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2018-11-05T15:28:00Z oni-on-ion: jcowan: hmmm. almost makes me want to stick with guile!
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2018-11-05T15:35:59Z jcowan: lockywolf_: R7RS works in cumulative editions rather than drafts.  The Red Edition contains some libraries, the Tangerine Edition will have more, etc. etc. until we get to the (currently invisible) Ultraviolet Edition.  Of course there will be ongoing errata.
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2018-11-05T15:51:52Z oni-on-ion: https://github.com/petercrlane/r7rs-libs
2018-11-05T15:52:11Z oni-on-ion: http://snow-fort.org/   hmmm.
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2018-11-05T18:02:14Z oni-on-ion: trying to compile LambdaNative
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2018-11-05T18:19:22Z oni-on-ion: well. going to try RedEdition in Chez
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2018-11-05T18:36:43Z jcowan: oni-on-ion: Let us know.  Some adjustments will be needed.
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2018-11-06T02:15:45Z oni-on-ion: ahh! no geiser support for gambit!
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2018-11-06T02:28:52Z Ober: oni-on-ion: someone was working on it for gerbil/gambit
2018-11-06T02:29:31Z oni-on-ion: Ober: i've seen the github issue, but that is a big X over possibility of choice. will play more with chez, but i was looking at gambit for potential web target
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2018-11-06T02:43:44Z Ober: ahh for js? nice. yeah the universal backend is handy for obfuscation of scheme :P
2018-11-06T02:45:39Z jcowan: There are a couple of Scheme->JS compilers
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2018-11-06T02:47:00Z jcowan: BiwaScheme, Spock, CPSCM, Scheje
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2018-11-06T02:48:43Z jcowan: Actually Scheje is written in Clojure, so it can be on the JVM or the JSVM.
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2018-11-06T07:42:56Z skapate is now known as skapata
2018-11-06T07:42:58Z skapata: :D
2018-11-06T07:43:25Z skapata: 8Gb da memoro estas tro malmulte :(
2018-11-06T07:43:38Z skapata: kelkfoje mi devas reŝalti la komputilon
2018-11-06T07:43:49Z skapata: mi ne dormis
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2018-11-06T09:53:55Z oni-on-ion: if i write with guile, must i LGPL ?
2018-11-06T09:54:49Z wasamasa: that would be insane
2018-11-06T09:56:57Z ecraven: hm.. is there such a license for any compiler?
2018-11-06T09:57:57Z oni-on-ion: i am not wise with legal things =) so i can fully write scheme with guile (depending on link method) if i decide to have proprietary/private/commercial code ?
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2018-11-06T11:01:58Z gwatt: oni-on-ion: Probably. What you can't do is modify guile and keep those changes private.
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2018-11-06T11:51:47Z ecraven: you can, as long as you don't distribute it, I think
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2018-11-06T13:41:24Z ski . o O ( <https://blog.scottlogic.com/2018/04/26/webassembly-by-hand.html> )
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2018-11-06T13:57:18Z civodul: didn't know about WAT, funny that it uses sexps
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2018-11-06T13:59:23Z elly: a good idea never dies :P
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2018-11-06T14:05:15Z jcowan: What is WAT?
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2018-11-06T14:12:05Z elly: webassembly text format
2018-11-06T14:12:20Z elly: it reads like LLVM IR with sexps for the concrete syntax
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2018-11-06T15:49:50Z jcowan: Ah.  Bad name, too many confounds
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2018-11-06T17:31:30Z oni-on-ion: gwatt: ecraven: ahh alright. =)
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2018-11-07T13:50:40Z dTal: I'm finding something a little confusing about logical operators like 'and' and 'or'. It seems they're not procedures? My repl complains 'invalid syntax' whenever I type them in bare, or use them in any way other than directly such as with 'apply'.
2018-11-07T13:50:58Z elly: can you provide an example of what you mean?
2018-11-07T13:50:59Z ecraven: they are syntax, not functions
2018-11-07T13:51:16Z ecraven: like `if' or `define'
2018-11-07T13:51:31Z elly: oh, I see
2018-11-07T13:51:38Z dTal: Right, but... how am I supposed to apply them across a list then
2018-11-07T13:52:38Z dTal: I'd like to perform a logical 'and' across a list of indeterminate length, such that it short circuits on the first '#f'
2018-11-07T13:52:53Z elly: you can wrap them in a lambda if you'd like
2018-11-07T13:53:17Z ecraven: dTal: you need to implement that yourself
2018-11-07T13:53:29Z dTal: I see
2018-11-07T13:53:37Z dTal: I thought that would be basic functionality
2018-11-07T13:53:45Z elly: the reason that they are syntax is that they do not evaluate all their arguments
2018-11-07T13:53:59Z dTal: yes I understand that
2018-11-07T13:54:34Z elly: so if you wanted to do something like this: (foldl and #t list), the 'foldl' would have already evaluated all of the list, defeating the purpose of and behaving that way
2018-11-07T13:54:47Z dTal: right
2018-11-07T13:55:22Z dTal: but 'and' already takes an arbitrary number of arguments and short circuits all by itself, exactly because it doesn't evaluate its arguments
2018-11-07T13:55:45Z dTal: I feel like there should be some easy way of applying that to a list
2018-11-07T13:56:03Z elly: in racket there's andmap/ormap but I don't think there's anything in r7rs
2018-11-07T13:56:16Z elly: andmap has precisely the semantics you mean
2018-11-07T13:56:20Z dTal: I suppose I shouldn't really be generating the entire list to begin with
2018-11-07T13:56:27Z dTal: ah, thanks
2018-11-07T13:56:53Z elly: oh, actually, SRFI-1 has 'every' and 'any'
2018-11-07T13:56:57Z dTal: it seems to be very common that the answer to my queries is either 'write it yourself' or 'use racket'
2018-11-07T13:57:01Z elly: those may be what you want
2018-11-07T13:57:08Z dTal: ahhh
2018-11-07T13:57:20Z dTal: I keep hitting things found in srfi-1
2018-11-07T13:57:28Z elly: srfi-1 is a very useful library!
2018-11-07T13:57:40Z dTal: I've been trying to keep it pure but it looks like I'm just hurting myself
2018-11-07T13:57:44Z elly: core scheme is deliberately a very small language and it's expected that for practical programs you will be using some SRFIs
2018-11-07T13:57:46Z LeoNerd: It's 1 for a reason ;)
2018-11-07T13:57:46Z dTal: had to write iota the other day
2018-11-07T13:58:02Z elly: you *can* do that if you want (just use the base language) but you'll find yourself reimplementing some SRFIs
2018-11-07T13:58:11Z dTal: fair enough
2018-11-07T13:58:16Z dTal: right, thanks guys
2018-11-07T13:58:20Z dTal: gotta run
2018-11-07T13:58:22Z elly: which can be illuminating if you are new to scheme but is generally a waste of time and space if you aren't
2018-11-07T13:58:26Z elly: no worries, good luck
2018-11-07T13:58:29Z ecraven: dTal: which Scheme do you use?
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2018-11-07T17:29:52Z ski: dTal : if `(apply and (map predicate a-list))' had worked, you'd not get short-circuiting behaviour in that `predicate' would be called on every element of `list', regardless of possible early failure
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2018-11-07T17:35:36Z ski: (in fact, you can get that to "work", by replacing `(apply and (...))' by `((lambda (truthy-values) (reduce-right (lambda (truthy-0 truthy-1) (and truthy-0 truthy-1)) #t truthy-values)) (...))', but it wouldn't be sensible to do so)
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2018-11-07T19:40:34Z jcowan: Chicken 5 is released!  Tremendous congratulations to everyone involved.
2018-11-07T19:42:51Z deuill: Whooop whoop! Now to see if it compiles on QNX like 4.13 does
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2018-11-07T20:04:06Z amz3: time to dance \\o \o/ o//
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2018-11-07T20:13:38Z oni-on-ion: whats chicken
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2018-11-07T20:18:23Z amz3: a scheme implementation
2018-11-07T20:20:23Z amz3: http://lists.nongnu.org/archive/html/chicken-users/2018-11/msg00006.html
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2018-11-07T20:27:18Z ski . o O ( "Cheney on the M.T.A." by Henry G. Baker in 1994-02-04 at <http://home.pipeline.com/~hbaker1/CheneyMTA.html> )
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2018-11-07T20:49:10Z rudybot: la la la
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2018-11-07T20:55:39Z Ober: yeah... perhaps it has scaling issues irl
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2018-11-07T22:06:09Z jcowan: DURNIT ALL SCHEME REPLS SHOULD SUPPORT *PRINT-BASE* DURNIT
2018-11-07T22:07:41Z Ober: is that a clism?
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2018-11-07T22:18:50Z jcowan: yes
2018-11-07T22:19:02Z jcowan: I really really want to see bytevectors in hex
2018-11-07T22:20:17Z oni-on-ion: TIL scheme is greek
2018-11-07T22:23:06Z ski: ?
2018-11-07T22:25:31Z gnomon: ?
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2018-11-07T22:39:56Z jcowan: The word "scheme" is of Greek origin, yes.
2018-11-07T22:40:05Z jcowan: from Ancient Greek σχῆμα (skhêma, “form, shape”), from ἔχω (ékhō, “I hold”), saith Wiktionary
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2018-11-07T23:34:33Z Zipheir: So we speak not of different Schemes, but of Schemata.
2018-11-07T23:34:45Z Zipheir: (with apologies to Immanuel Kant)
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2018-11-07T23:51:45Z Ober: outside the Noumena?
2018-11-07T23:52:43Z Ober: Lambda is from Lamedh, meaning cattle prod.
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2018-11-07T23:57:52Z Zipheir: Cattle Prod: The Ultimate Goto
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2018-11-08T00:00:24Z mejja: rudybot: In Kantian philosophy, a transcendental schema is the procedural rule by which a category or pure, non-empirical concept is associated with a sense impression.
2018-11-08T00:01:13Z rudybot: mejja:    Geistesgeschichte, Hegelian idea, Kantian idea, Platonic form, ..[Type ,more]
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2018-11-08T00:18:36Z Ober: b
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2018-11-08T01:04:07Z mejja: Riastradh, ;The object 16, passed as the second argument to bytevector-u8-ref, is not in the correct range.
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2018-11-08T01:26:31Z lyf[kde]: How is The Seasoned Schemer? How useful is it for learning functional programming?
2018-11-08T01:33:47Z Ober: very cool imho.
2018-11-08T01:33:51Z Ober: it got me off CL
2018-11-08T01:35:42Z lyf[kde]: Daily bashing of CL
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2018-11-08T01:37:20Z aeth: Speaking of CL, hopefully this December I'll have the time to put in a concentrated effort to release cl-scheme (working title, if I give the real name someone will take the domain name)
2018-11-08T01:37:36Z lyf[kde]: Common Scheme
2018-11-08T01:37:42Z Ober: is that CL on scheme? or scheme on CL?
2018-11-08T01:38:10Z aeth: Ober: Scheme on CL. CL projects often start with cl-foo
2018-11-08T01:38:24Z Ober: only in quicklisp :P
2018-11-08T01:38:33Z gwatt: aeth: why not get the domain name now and avoid that pain?
2018-11-08T01:38:52Z aeth: gwatt: Experience has taught me not to register a domain name without something solid first because everything takes much longer than I estimate
2018-11-08T01:38:56Z Ober: well after r9rs.org got stolen from him, he learned his lesson
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2018-11-08T01:40:49Z aeth: Ober: the way to handle those sorts of things where you have a very clear "sequel" so someone can take r15rs or whatever is to just use subdomains
2018-11-08T01:40:53Z aeth: like r9rs.rnrs.org
2018-11-08T01:41:09Z gwatt: Huh, r9rs.org goes to sbcl.org
2018-11-08T01:41:29Z aeth: The inter-Lisp rivalry can be amusing sometimes
2018-11-08T01:42:07Z mejja: Riastradh: (random-bytevector 1088)
2018-11-08T01:42:59Z aeth: Ober: anyway, Scheme on CL is much more useful than CL on Scheme because Scheme on SBCL instantly gives you access to a lot of "free" performance without the extreme mismatch of targeting something like C
2018-11-08T01:43:14Z mejja: bs.
2018-11-08T01:43:18Z Zipheir: Hah
2018-11-08T01:44:15Z aeth: You mostly need to handle tail recursion, a separate false value from '(), and continuations.
2018-11-08T01:45:18Z mejja: aeth, Cobol Lisp on Scheme 1990: https://github.com/tinysun212/bbn_cl/tree/master/bbn_cl
2018-11-08T01:46:11Z aeth: mejja: Looks like 50% C to me
2018-11-08T01:46:49Z mejja: It's CL on mit-scheme
2018-11-08T01:47:56Z aeth: mejja: anyway, if you are going to mix CL and Scheme, writing a Scheme on top of SBCL is probably going to be the fastest combination of the two languages in one runtime.
2018-11-08T01:48:08Z aeth: At least given the current implementations
2018-11-08T01:48:56Z mejja: please...
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2018-11-08T01:50:52Z Zipheir: Implement CL on Stalin, maybe.
2018-11-08T01:51:13Z aeth: Implementing a CL on Scheme with performance in mind would probably require implementing a Scheme first
2018-11-08T01:51:24Z aeth: At that point I might as well just implement Scheme on CL
2018-11-08T01:52:12Z Ober: aeth: yeah I'm curious how fast it would be on sbcl. it has a ton of optimizations.
2018-11-08T01:52:14Z aeth: SBCL would be very hard to beat.
2018-11-08T01:52:28Z Ober: except in areas of memory usage, and gc performance :P
2018-11-08T01:52:31Z aeth: Beating popular Schemes (although maybe not Stalin) should be doable with an SBCL target
2018-11-08T01:52:45Z mejja: beating sbcl is a pice of cake.
2018-11-08T01:52:53Z aeth: And, yes, SBCL *absolutely* uses memory as its tradeoff
2018-11-08T01:53:03Z aeth: Very heavy there
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2018-11-08T01:54:12Z aeth: mejja: I mean... challenge accepted? I'm going to run https://ecraven.github.io/r7rs-benchmarks/ as soon as I have r7rs working and see how it does
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2018-11-08T01:54:37Z Ober: and  #+sbcl (gc :full t) ;;ard won't help
2018-11-08T01:55:04Z aeth: mejja: Note that I could actually beat hand-written CL on SBCL if I put enough effort into it because I can do things like put everything in one file (or even function!) for maximum compilation performance, whereas CL has a model that makes global optimizations hard.
2018-11-08T01:56:54Z Ober: fast cl is pretty ugly as well
2018-11-08T01:56:54Z mejja: Bla bla bla Cobol Lisp ..
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2018-11-08T01:56:55Z Ober: e.g. ironclad
2018-11-08T01:56:55Z mejja: Itäs dead kid!
2018-11-08T01:57:38Z aeth: Ober: A sufficiently complicated macro or reader macro could make for a pleasing interface. (I guess this is a case of it? The Scheme's reader could be run as a reader macro!)
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2018-11-08T02:00:37Z mejja: aeth, btw, challenge accepted!
2018-11-08T02:01:49Z Zipheir: mejja: Please don't implement another CL :)
2018-11-08T02:02:39Z aeth: I mean, r7rs-small is a much easier thing to implement than standards-compliant HyperSpec CL
2018-11-08T02:02:59Z aeth: So you're just commiting to a multi-year project.
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2018-11-08T02:10:41Z Riastradh: mejja: Heh, oops.
2018-11-08T02:12:00Z aeth: r7rs-small has a shockingly small amount of actual syntax and the rest is defined in §7.3
2018-11-08T02:12:32Z aeth: So you get most of the way there with continuations, hygienic macros, and a reader
2018-11-08T02:13:03Z mejja: Cobol Lisp is smaller. (because it is DEAD)
2018-11-08T02:13:29Z aeth: Oh, I said what I said because most of §6 is trivial with CL as the host language
2018-11-08T02:13:51Z Riastradh: mejja: fixed
2018-11-08T02:13:52Z aeth: especially before §6.10
2018-11-08T02:14:23Z mejja: rudybot, Cobol Lisp is Dead! Worms, maggots & flies
2018-11-08T02:14:32Z rudybot: mejja: "I'm glad I use Dial / It not only kills germs / But rids my whole body / Of maggots and worms"
2018-11-08T02:14:35Z Ober: aeth: sbcl is a lot faster in some areas, but often it also felt fragile compared to ccl/LW/ACL
2018-11-08T02:15:28Z Zipheir: rudybot: Eww.
2018-11-08T02:15:29Z rudybot: Zipheir: eww
2018-11-08T02:15:40Z aeth: Ober: I don't get that impression. SBCL seems like the easiest CL implementation to introspect, benchmark, profile, debug in SLIME, disassemble, etc., and generally figure out what's going on.
2018-11-08T02:16:50Z aeth: (Apparently someone has gotten a Scheme to run in SLIME?)
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2018-11-08T02:19:12Z Riastradh: Heh.  I got Scheme48 and SLIME hooked up quite nicely a decade ago, but of course it's all bitrotted at this point.
2018-11-08T02:19:46Z Riastradh: Allegedly MIT Scheme can be made to talk to SLIME but I've never tried it.
2018-11-08T02:22:26Z Riastradh: https://mumble.net/~campbell/images/slime48-porn.png
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2018-11-08T02:26:46Z aeth: "CL-USER>"
2018-11-08T02:27:11Z aeth: yes, yes, I'm totally a CL-USER, you can trust me, SLIME
2018-11-08T02:27:13Z Riastradh: Heh.  That was probably the first screenshot I took.
2018-11-08T02:27:26Z Riastradh: Later it appears I adjusted the prompt.
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2018-11-08T02:44:23Z oni-on-ion: is CL particularily harder to treeshake than schemes where it ... schemes more common? =)
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2018-11-08T02:58:17Z jcowan: No implementation is what I would call *good* at treeshaking.
2018-11-08T02:59:20Z jcowan: In Stalin you do "reverse treeshaking"; you prepend the standard routines you actually want to your program, and Stalin compiles them along with your code.
2018-11-08T03:00:09Z jcowan: Only 9 people showed up for the talk, but they asked good questions and had some interestiung suggestions.
2018-11-08T03:00:20Z jcowan: I asked for a show of hands about many of the docketed features.
2018-11-08T03:00:31Z jcowan: I am within epsilon of sending out the CFV.
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2018-11-08T03:06:22Z oni-on-ion: o_o in-person meetup talk ?
2018-11-08T03:06:50Z oni-on-ion: chez has some kind of pruning/shaking , uninformed of much else beyond the surfaces
2018-11-08T03:08:43Z Zipheir: jcowan: Looking at the sketch for Maybe/Either, how do you envision either-ref/default working?
2018-11-08T03:09:23Z jcowan: If it's a Right we unwrap it and return the innards, but if it's a Left we return the default instead.
2018-11-08T03:09:45Z jcowan: (Either is inherently asymmetrical; Right represents a value, Left an error condition.)
2018-11-08T03:10:25Z jcowan: getOrElse in Scala
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2018-11-08T03:10:35Z Zipheir: Ah, that makes sense. I couldn't see how it could be meaningfully symmetrical.
2018-11-08T03:10:38Z jcowan: In-person talk, yes.
2018-11-08T03:11:12Z oni-on-ion: a very thorough and interesting set of articles (7+) of comparisons with CL and haskell -> https://hyotang666.github.io/index.html
2018-11-08T03:12:25Z oni-on-ion: hmm. i was thinking of starting a tech talk here or meetup locally (weekly or monthly) because there is not much going on except general tech
2018-11-08T03:14:07Z Zipheir: jcowan: (nothing) is going to be #f, correct? Does that mean that (maybe? #f) -> #t ?
2018-11-08T03:16:04Z aeth: oni-on-ion: afaik the part that makes CL hard to tree-shake is CLOS
2018-11-08T03:16:17Z aeth: CL is also a pretty dynamic language while Scheme doesn't really take a stance on that sort of thing afaik
2018-11-08T03:16:23Z oni-on-ion: (define (maybeof a) (if (not? a) (a . #t) #f))
2018-11-08T03:16:44Z aeth: (By dynamic I mean anything can be redefined at any time)
2018-11-08T03:16:52Z oni-on-ion: aeth: ohhh, i see. makes sense - got to keep the compiler around for MOPping around =)
2018-11-08T03:16:58Z oni-on-ion: mhm
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2018-11-08T03:20:33Z Zipheir: oni-on-ion: What's maybeof supposed to be?
2018-11-08T03:20:43Z ski: (the (`Functor' and) `Applicative' and `Monad' instances are asymmetrical, with `Left' signalling an exception. one can also use it symmetrically, to represent two alternatives)
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2018-11-08T03:22:37Z ski: (the 2006-02-03 entry "Option types, optional parameters" at <https://mumble.net/~campbell/blag.txt> re "domain contagion" may be interesting, re `maybe'/`option')
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2018-11-08T03:26:02Z Zipheir: "The conflation of the false constant and the empty list in old, crufty Lisps..." Heh.
2018-11-08T03:28:05Z Zipheir: ski: I'm just trying to think about how https://bitbucket.org/cowan/r7rs-wg1-infra/src/86ae3066905c5884f8430d6a38ccab1fcbf5e1e9/MaybeEither.md is going to work. It is of course not a specification.
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2018-11-08T03:45:38Z jcowan: Zipheir: I realized that Nothing can't be #f, because (just #f) has to be different from Nothing, whereas (just (nothing)) = nothing, because Maybe is self-flattening
2018-11-08T03:45:48Z jcowan: by the same token, (just (just x)) = (just x)
2018-11-08T03:46:16Z jcowan: so Nothing is a singleton distinct from all others.
2018-11-08T03:46:52Z Zipheir: Ah, OK.
2018-11-08T03:47:19Z ski: why should it be self-flattening ?
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2018-11-08T03:52:34Z ski: if i use `(let ((x (nothing))) (maybe-bind (just x) (lambda (y) (just "foo"))))', i'd expect to get back an equivalent value as from `(just "foo")', not as from `(nothing)'
2018-11-08T03:54:13Z ski: (because one of the three monadic laws (expressed in terms of the `maybe' ops) says that `(maybe-bind (just x) k)' ought to be equivalent to `(k x)' .. regardless of what value `x' is bound to)
2018-11-08T03:56:53Z ski: (hm, as for `(just (just x))' being equivalent to `(just x)', i think that would fail `(let ((x (just 42))) (maybe-bind (just x) (lambda (y) (just (list y)))))' being equivalent to `(just (list (just 42)))' (by the same law))
2018-11-08T04:02:43Z oni-on-ion: if you make a maybe with a maybe type already it just returns it (constant)
2018-11-08T04:02:51Z oni-on-ion: (effectively)
2018-11-08T04:04:16Z ski: yes, that's what i'm objecting to
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2018-11-08T04:07:43Z ski: (this can also be seen as a case of "domain contagion". the idea is that if you have some set of values which `x' can assume, then if `y' can be either `(nothing)' or `(just x)', then the set of values that `y' can assume should be "one element larger", it should include representations of the values that `x' could assume, and in addition include the representation of `(nothing)'. hm, another way to state my objection would be that `nothing' and `just' are s
2018-11-08T04:08:09Z ski: (hrm, that probably got cut off near ".. hm, another way to state my objection would be that nothing' and `just' are supposed to be disjoint, and `just' is supposed to be injective)")
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2018-11-08T04:31:10Z Zipheir: ski: Good points.
2018-11-08T04:33:09Z Zipheir: ski: It does seem that self-flattening maybe violates the left unit monad law.
2018-11-08T04:42:52Z oni-on-ion: its empty recursion, self-flattening is a common effect
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2018-11-08T05:43:41Z oni-on-ion: btw about maybe/either for CL, see bottom of page: https://hyotang666.github.io/archives/cl-vs-haskell.7.html
2018-11-08T06:03:20Z Zipheir: That's some ugly lisp.
2018-11-08T06:05:14Z Zipheir: Well, I guess the whole page is like that, since you've got to build the [type]classes manually.
2018-11-08T06:12:01Z oni-on-ion: what is ugly about it?
2018-11-08T06:26:24Z Zipheir: It's not so bad. CL is just gross.
2018-11-08T06:27:47Z Ober: fast cl always is
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2018-11-08T06:33:36Z oni-on-ion: ah, oops i read "ugly lisp" as "ugly CL" =)
2018-11-08T06:34:54Z Zipheir: Yes, because CL is the only Lisp that matters. At least, this is what CLers repeat ad nauseum. :p
2018-11-08T06:38:32Z oni-on-ion: ^ that
2018-11-08T06:40:12Z Zipheir: It is slightly amusing how the CL community keeps using 'Lisp' to mean CL--lisp-lang.org, #lisp, lots of books...
2018-11-08T06:41:00Z oni-on-ion: yeap. its the kind of CNN and FOX levels
2018-11-08T06:43:17Z Zipheir: Zombie John McCarthy should start a trademark dispute.
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2018-11-08T07:10:12Z Ober: Anything that is Common, is of little value. -Nietzsche
2018-11-08T07:16:40Z oni-on-ion: ^_^_^
2018-11-08T07:16:56Z oni-on-ion: /
2018-11-08T07:24:52Z erkin: I guess it's not just their fault. They simply picked up the name and used it. Nobody says "Scheme Lisp" or "Clojure Lisp"
2018-11-08T07:25:16Z erkin: Or "Racket Scheme" for that matter. ;-)
2018-11-08T07:30:54Z Ober: http://islisp.info/faq.html the answer to the first question seems lost on them
2018-11-08T07:34:52Z aeth: Well, people like to abbreviate and they weren't going to shorten it Common.
2018-11-08T07:35:25Z aeth: Personally, though, I think we should call Scheme r7
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2018-11-08T07:46:58Z Ober: a "lisp 3"
2018-11-08T07:58:51Z oni-on-ion: =)
2018-11-08T07:59:30Z oni-on-ion: file extensions - .scm? i like .lisp but i have been using .cl for CL (because there are a lot of .?l extensions and i grew rather fond)
2018-11-08T08:00:51Z Riastradh: Finally got rid of the annoying trap-by-default behaviour for floating-point exceptions in MIT Scheme.  (You can still turn it on if you want, at whatever granularity you want in your program, or you can just test the exception flags at the end of a computation without trapping.)
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2018-11-08T08:21:57Z ski: hm, i think PLT Scheme^W^WRacket has also used `*.ss' ?
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2018-11-08T08:23:16Z wasamasa: so does chez
2018-11-08T08:23:42Z wasamasa: I've once seen someone use .csc, guess for what implementation
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2018-11-08T08:24:08Z Riastradh: Don't forget .sch!
2018-11-08T08:24:27Z wasamasa: and .sld
2018-11-08T08:24:42Z aeth: But what does a sled have to do with Scheme?
2018-11-08T08:24:56Z wasamasa: it's presumably a scheme library definition
2018-11-08T08:28:00Z Riastradh: rudybot: eval nan.0
2018-11-08T08:28:01Z rudybot: Riastradh: error: nan.0: undefined; <NEWLINE>  cannot reference an identifier before its definition <NEWLINE>   in module: 'program
2018-11-08T08:28:04Z Riastradh: rudybot: eval +nan.0
2018-11-08T08:28:04Z rudybot: Riastradh: ; Value: +nan.0
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2018-11-08T08:52:58Z oni-on-ion: ah yeah<COMMA> im using <PERIOD>ss <NEWLINE>
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2018-11-08T13:47:03Z jcowan: ski: You're definitely write that self-flattening is a bad idea; I've dropped it.
2018-11-08T13:49:26Z jcowan: But Nothing still needs to be a singleton type
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2018-11-08T14:10:07Z ski: it could be `#f' (or even the empty list) but it could just as well be its own thing
2018-11-08T14:10:38Z ski: (`just' could make a singleton list in that case, i suppose)
2018-11-08T14:15:24Z jcowan: I definitely want Just to be a distinguishable type, so you can have just?.
2018-11-08T14:16:46Z ecraven: (define (just? x) (not (nothing? x))) :P
2018-11-08T14:18:19Z civodul: (define just (let ((x (list 'just))) (lambda () x)))
2018-11-08T14:18:31Z civodul: (define (just? x) (eq? x (just)))
2018-11-08T14:18:34Z civodul: :-)
2018-11-08T14:19:29Z ski: `just' should take an input
2018-11-08T14:19:38Z civodul: yeah right, i was just realizing my silliness
2018-11-08T14:19:48Z civodul: well, define-record-type and all that
2018-11-08T14:21:17Z jcowan: Not only that, but I want just objects to be opaque to the rest of Scheme so you are forced to unwrap them via the API.
2018-11-08T14:21:53Z jcowan: so either a proc or a one-slot record
2018-11-08T14:22:13Z jcowan: but I think a one-slot record is better, because runtime type discrimiation.
2018-11-08T14:24:10Z ski nods
2018-11-08T14:27:41Z jcowan: Indeed, that's the problem with the notion of "applicable records"; a procedure can emulate a record in every point except RTTI, since the only thing you can do with a procedure is invoke it.  And having a type of record that is inherently applicable by `apply` requires integrating the idea of records deeply into the Scheme interpreter.
2018-11-08T14:28:04Z jcowan: So I think I'll flush it.
2018-11-08T14:29:31Z jcowan: The best you could do now would be something like (apply (ship-apply ship) ship some-args), which would run the slot in the ship record called 'apply', providing a self/this initial argument and then the actual arguments. A macro to hide this would inherently be a low-level macro, since it would have to assemble the name 'ship-apply' out of 'ship' by string operations.
2018-11-08T14:30:00Z jcowan: and rely on you using a particular convention for the getter
2018-11-08T14:35:05Z ecraven: Riastradh: sorry to bother you, but do you know how to build current mit git? ./Setup.sh && ./configure ... && make don't seem to work
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2018-11-08T14:39:01Z Zipheir: jcowan: As Just is opaque, maybe it's more symmetrical to have Nothing be a distinct value, rather than the domain-contagion-y #f? Although nothing-as-#f might indeed be useful in some cases.
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2018-11-08T14:41:57Z Zipheir: jcowan: (I know you've already been over this, the thought just occurred that if "one half" of the type is hidden, perhaps it's a good thing that the other be hidden, as well.)
2018-11-08T14:47:38Z gwatt: someone has a monad library for r6rs. (I don't remember if this has been mentioned here)
2018-11-08T14:48:19Z jcowan: I haven't seen it, I'll search for it.
2018-11-08T14:48:20Z gwatt: https://github.com/jhidding/r6rs-monads
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2018-11-08T14:54:09Z jcowan: Looks very minimal, just Maybe and Parser, and a slavish imitation of Haskell to boot.  :-)
2018-11-08T14:54:17Z jcowan: The Curse of Lisp strikes
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2018-11-08T15:20:32Z ski: Zipheir : as long as `(just x)' is distinct from `x' (and from `(nothing)') (and distinct inputs to `just' yield distinct outputs), i don't think having `(nothing)' be `#f' (or empty list) would constitute domain contagion
2018-11-08T15:21:02Z ski: (but for consistency's sake, it's possibly best to keep it distinct as well)
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2018-11-08T15:34:38Z Riastradh: ecraven: If you're building from 9.2, you need to first build with --disable-default-plugins; then you can use the resulting runtime+compiler to build the whole system.
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2018-11-08T15:53:46Z ecraven: Riastradh: I get a lot of uxsig.c:917:9: error: cast between incompatible function types from ‘void (*)(int)’ to ‘void (*)(int,  siginfo_t *, void *)’ {aka ‘void (*)(int,  struct <anonymous> *, void *)’} [-Werror=cast-function-type]
2018-11-08T15:53:58Z ecraven: Riastradh: might be my gcc is too new?
2018-11-08T15:54:35Z Riastradh: Hmm.
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2018-11-08T15:55:22Z ecraven: http://ix.io/1rk4
2018-11-08T15:56:07Z Riastradh: For now, you can reconfigure with CFLAGS=-Wno-error=cast-function-type.
2018-11-08T15:56:25Z Riastradh: Is that the only case of that error?
2018-11-08T15:56:43Z ecraven: make stops after encountering it.. make -k, right?
2018-11-08T15:56:48Z Riastradh: Sure, try that.
2018-11-08T15:57:46Z ecraven: Riastradh: unrelated, but do you know whether there are plans to migrate towards an r7rs-style library / module system?
2018-11-08T15:58:05Z Riastradh: Chris has apparently been working on that.  I know nothing about it.
2018-11-08T15:58:12Z ecraven: it seems that is the only error when building the microcode
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2018-11-08T15:59:25Z ecraven: Riastradh: thanks
2018-11-08T16:01:53Z ecraven: this is probably what I need to fix with --disable-default-plugins? "The object #t, passed as an argument to merge-pathnames, is not an object satisfying #[compiled-procedure 13 ("pathnm" #x9) #x1a #x9a8f0a]."
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2018-11-08T16:12:21Z Riastradh: ecraven: Ughhhh...  I saw that recently and did a clean build (from my already-built toolchain) and it went away.
2018-11-08T16:13:58Z ecraven: thanks
2018-11-08T16:19:42Z Riastradh: Fixed the -Wcast-function-types issue by disabling that warning.
2018-11-08T16:19:54Z ecraven: hehe
2018-11-08T16:19:55Z Riastradh: (It is not compatible with various Unix APIs.)
2018-11-08T16:21:20Z Riastradh: Any luck with a fresh build?
2018-11-08T16:21:29Z Riastradh: By the way, you can speed it up with `make -j4' or whatever.
2018-11-08T16:21:38Z ecraven: ah, that works now? nice
2018-11-08T16:21:47Z Riastradh: It has worked for about five years now!
2018-11-08T16:22:02Z ecraven: hehe, I never questioned it not working since it didn't work originally
2018-11-08T16:22:10Z Riastradh: (Some bugs snuck in the past few months but they're being fixed.)
2018-11-08T16:25:14Z ecraven: is it possible to run microcode/scheme so that it actually finds the plugins?
2018-11-08T16:25:34Z ecraven: I tried --prepend-library /path/to/mit-scheme/src but that didn't help
2018-11-08T16:25:40Z Riastradh: I'm not sure.
2018-11-08T16:25:43Z ecraven: i.e. run the entire system without actually installing it
2018-11-08T16:25:48Z Riastradh: No idea how this new plugin stuff works.
2018-11-08T16:25:59Z ecraven: I don't want to break my existing setup, I need to update all my code first :-/
2018-11-08T16:26:03Z Riastradh: Chris says it's supposed to work.
2018-11-08T16:27:05Z ecraven: ah, ./run-build
2018-11-08T16:27:06Z ecraven: ;)
2018-11-08T16:27:14Z Riastradh: Cool.
2018-11-08T16:27:24Z ecraven: --no-init-file too
2018-11-08T16:27:41Z Riastradh: You needed that to build or you needed that to run?
2018-11-08T16:27:49Z ecraven: to run
2018-11-08T16:27:52Z Riastradh: Hm.
2018-11-08T16:28:01Z Riastradh: Stuff in your init file doesn't work?
2018-11-08T16:28:04Z ecraven: x11 fails with that pathname thing, I'll try to rebuild with the new microcode
2018-11-08T16:28:17Z Riastradh: Yes, you'll need to build with the new system.
2018-11-08T16:28:18Z ecraven: yes, I have a lot in my init, like custom reader macros and a few (access ..) things
2018-11-08T16:28:19Z Riastradh: What I did is:
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2018-11-08T16:32:12Z Riastradh: ./configure --prefix="`pwd`/boot" && make && make install && make distclean && PATH="`pwd`/boot/bin" ./configure && ...
2018-11-08T16:35:41Z Riastradh: er
2018-11-08T16:35:46Z Riastradh: PATH="$PATH:`pwd`/boot/bin"
2018-11-08T16:38:59Z Riastradh: Also please run `env FAST=y make check' after your build and let me know if anything fails.
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2018-11-08T16:47:01Z ecraven: Riastradh: build error: http://ix.io/1rki
2018-11-08T16:47:15Z ecraven: gcc 8.2.1
2018-11-08T16:48:33Z Riastradh: Bah.
2018-11-08T16:48:52Z Riastradh: That is, in fact, the correct way to do things.  I appreciate what you're trying to do, gcc821, but you're wrong.
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2018-11-08T17:05:08Z ecraven: Riastradh: also: findprim.c:96:20: error: argument 2 range [18446744071562067968, 18446744073709551615] exceeds maximum object size 9223372036854775807 [-Werror=alloc-size-larger-than=]
2018-11-08T17:05:30Z ecraven: whatever you changed, it introduced new problems :D
2018-11-08T17:05:49Z Riastradh: Bizarre.  I thought I only disabled some warnings.
2018-11-08T17:06:03Z Riastradh: Well, no, I added a couple too but not that one.
2018-11-08T17:06:13Z ecraven: I'll clean everything and retry
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2018-11-08T17:25:11Z ecraven: hm.. I fail at building the full system based on ../boot
2018-11-08T17:25:19Z Riastradh: ecraven: update
2018-11-08T17:25:22Z ecraven: it always runs into that alloc-size-larger-than error
2018-11-08T17:25:35Z ecraven: ah, nice! thank you
2018-11-08T17:27:16Z ecraven: that is fixed, but I still run into the pathnames problem
2018-11-08T17:27:24Z ecraven: I'll try setting the env variables like run-build does
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2018-11-08T17:43:18Z ecraven: Riastradh: thank you, seems to work now. I'll try running the tets
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2018-11-08T17:46:19Z ecraven: Riastradh: one subtest failure in floenv: http://ix.io/1rkA
2018-11-08T17:46:40Z Riastradh: Cool, that's it?
2018-11-08T17:46:47Z ecraven: yes, for FAST=y
2018-11-08T17:47:15Z ecraven: now running slow ;)
2018-11-08T17:47:36Z ecraven: is there a test report file anywhere? it's easy to miss the actual errors :-/
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2018-11-08T17:48:31Z Riastradh: Should be printed at the end, but yeah, this test system leaves a bit to be desired.
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2018-11-08T17:49:45Z Riastradh: I think your system math library might be broken!
2018-11-08T17:50:04Z ecraven: hehe, that may well be.. arch linux x86_64, almost up to date
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2018-11-08T17:54:20Z Riastradh: ecraven: https://mumble.net/~campbell/tmp/20181108/floor.c
2018-11-08T17:55:19Z ecraven: 8 times -0.0
2018-11-08T17:55:24Z Riastradh: Hm.
2018-11-08T17:55:31Z Riastradh: Maybe it's not your system math library, then.
2018-11-08T17:55:58Z Riastradh: But I don't see how else that could happen...
2018-11-08T17:56:13Z ecraven: am I doing something wrong here? http://ix.io/1rkE
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2018-11-08T17:56:24Z Riastradh: No idea.
2018-11-08T17:57:08Z ecraven: it used to work like this.. but http has been broken for quite some time in -git :-/
2018-11-08T17:57:27Z Riastradh: Oh, wait, I got the sense of things wrong.
2018-11-08T17:57:31Z Riastradh: Reload floor.c and try again?
2018-11-08T17:57:53Z ecraven: all 8 0.0
2018-11-08T17:58:37Z ecraven: clang and gcc agree ;)
2018-11-08T17:59:35Z Riastradh: Can you compile floor.c with -fno-builtin?
2018-11-08T18:00:01Z Riastradh: Also update and try test-floenv.scm again.
2018-11-08T18:00:04Z ecraven: still all 0.0 on both compilers
2018-11-08T18:00:10Z Riastradh: Huh.
2018-11-08T18:00:30Z Riastradh: Oh, there's one more possibility.
2018-11-08T18:00:50Z Riastradh: Reload floor.c and try again.
2018-11-08T18:01:18Z ecraven: -fno-builtin says 0.5 0.0 4 times
2018-11-08T18:01:27Z ecraven: same without -fno-builtin
2018-11-08T18:01:32Z Riastradh: Bizarre.
2018-11-08T18:01:35Z ecraven: ;)
2018-11-08T18:02:14Z Riastradh: What does (flo:with-rounding-mode 'downward (lambda () (list (floor 0.) (floor .5))) say?
2018-11-08T18:02:45Z ecraven: (-0. -0.)
2018-11-08T18:03:06Z ecraven: sorry, afk for a bit, just tell me what I should test when I come back
2018-11-08T18:03:17Z Riastradh: Can you do the same with the other rounding modes -- to-nearest, upward, toward-zero?
2018-11-08T18:06:50Z Riastradh: ecraven: Try adding a slash at the end of the URL.
2018-11-08T18:12:18Z ecraven: Riastradh: that works, thank you
2018-11-08T18:12:24Z ecraven: I forgot that, I ran into that before :-/
2018-11-08T18:14:07Z ecraven: Riastradh: they all return '(0. 0.)
2018-11-08T18:14:57Z ecraven: test now fails 2 sub-tests, http://ix.io/1rkQ
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2018-11-08T18:21:23Z Riastradh: what
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2018-11-08T18:21:51Z ecraven: ran it twice, same result
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2018-11-08T18:25:14Z Riastradh: (map floor '(-2.0 -1.5 -1.0 -0.5 -0.0 0.0 0.5 1.0 1.5 2.0))
2018-11-08T18:25:16Z Riastradh: What does that give?
2018-11-08T18:26:11Z Riastradh: (unadorned, and in all rounding modes)
2018-11-08T18:26:50Z ecraven: (-2. -2. -1. -1. -0. 0. 0. 1. 1. 2.)
2018-11-08T18:27:19Z Riastradh: Same in all?
2018-11-08T18:27:27Z ecraven: working on it ;)
2018-11-08T18:30:33Z Riastradh: ecraven: update and rerun test
2018-11-08T18:30:41Z Riastradh: (won't fix it but will help to narrow down)
2018-11-08T18:30:54Z ecraven: http://ix.io/1rkY
2018-11-08T18:31:03Z Riastradh: weiiiiiiird
2018-11-08T18:31:30Z Riastradh: Something is real funny with your floor!
2018-11-08T18:31:36Z Riastradh narrowly avoids making a bad joke about mopping it
2018-11-08T18:32:09Z Riastradh: Can you objdump -dr artutl.o and show me flonum_floor?
2018-11-08T18:32:09Z ecraven: ;rounding-mode-independent:downward/floor failed 2 sub-tests out of 10 in 0. seconds:    .5 assertion 1: value of (floor 0.) was -0. but expected an object eqv? to 0.    .6 assertion 1: value of (floor .5) was -0. but expected an object eqv? to 0.
2018-11-08T18:32:47Z Riastradh: Also can you tell me what (flo:with-rounding-mode 'downward (lambda () ((make-primitive-procedure 'floor 1) .5))) gives?
2018-11-08T18:33:18Z ecraven: objdump: http://ix.io/1rkZ
2018-11-08T18:33:31Z Riastradh: Aha!  So it's not going through libm.
2018-11-08T18:33:47Z Riastradh: Can you delete artutl.o and recompile it with -fno-builtin?
2018-11-08T18:33:55Z ecraven: I'll try ;)
2018-11-08T18:34:03Z Riastradh: (just `make artutl.o', delete it again, copy & paste the command line, and insert -fno-builtin)
2018-11-08T18:34:41Z Riastradh: Also can you compile floor.o and objdump -dr it?
2018-11-08T18:34:46Z Riastradh: (without -fno-builtin)
2018-11-08T18:35:44Z ecraven: new flonum_floor: http://ix.io/1rl0
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2018-11-08T18:36:47Z ecraven: floor: http://ix.io/1rl1
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2018-11-08T18:37:27Z Riastradh: Interesting.
2018-11-08T18:37:43Z Riastradh: Can you compile floor.c with -O3 and try again?
2018-11-08T18:37:51Z Riastradh: (run it, disassemble it)
2018-11-08T18:38:06Z Riastradh: (also want to see if the test passes when artutl.o is compiled with -fno-builtin; just run `make' again in microcode to relink the microcode)
2018-11-08T18:40:22Z ecraven: floenv passed
2018-11-08T18:41:00Z ecraven: with -O3, the second line is 0.5 -0.0, all the others are 0.5 0.0
2018-11-08T18:41:10Z Riastradh: OK, last one: can you recompile artutl.c with -frounding-math instead of -fno-builtin?
2018-11-08T18:41:10Z ecraven: without -O3, all lines are 0.5 0.0
2018-11-08T18:42:06Z ecraven: with -frounding-math floenv fails
2018-11-08T18:42:24Z ecraven: http://ix.io/1rl3
2018-11-08T18:47:53Z ecraven: Riastradh: the ->pathname bug seems to be random, it sometimes happens, sometimes does not
2018-11-08T18:48:16Z Riastradh: bah
2018-11-08T18:48:25Z Riastradh: Can you compile floor.c with -frounding-math -O3 and send objdump?
2018-11-08T18:49:39Z ecraven: http://ix.io/1rl4
2018-11-08T18:49:48Z Riastradh: And output?
2018-11-08T18:49:58Z ecraven: at the top of the paste
2018-11-08T18:50:05Z Riastradh: Cool.
2018-11-08T18:50:09Z Riastradh: gcc -frounding-math -O3 is broken.
2018-11-08T18:50:13Z ecraven: ;)
2018-11-08T18:50:18Z Riastradh: Congratulations, you found a compiler bug!
2018-11-08T18:50:26Z ecraven: hehe, I'd rather say *you* did
2018-11-08T18:50:48Z ecraven: where is the error?
2018-11-08T18:51:09Z Riastradh: I dunno, somewhere in that mess of sse stuff.
2018-11-08T18:51:15Z ecraven: hm.. I don't know enough about SSE obviously
2018-11-08T18:52:10Z ecraven: afk again for a bit ;)
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2018-11-08T18:53:09Z Riastradh: IEEE 754 roundToIntegral* (of which floor = roundToIntegralTowardNegative) is supposed to preserve the sign bit of its operand, according to Sec. 6.3 `The sign bit'.
2018-11-08T18:53:14Z Riastradh: (IEEE 754-2008)
2018-11-08T18:54:05Z Riastradh: `When neither the inputs nor the result are NaN, [...] the sign of the result of conversion, the quantize operation, the roundToIntegral operations, and the roundToIntegralExact is the sign of the first or only operand.'
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2018-11-08T19:14:01Z ecraven: Riastradh: will you file a bug report? just because I don't think I understand this well enough to do that ;)
2018-11-08T19:16:51Z ecraven: tried with clang, but it doesn't support -frounding-math
2018-11-08T19:23:04Z ecraven: Riastradh: do you have any idea how to import r7rs libraries into the mit repl? I can load them fine, but how do I then make them accessible?
2018-11-08T19:24:05Z ecraven: GE works for "entering" them
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2018-11-08T19:48:00Z jcowan: ecraven: You need to load and then import; that's a documented restriction for R7RS libs in MIT.
2018-11-08T19:49:04Z ecraven: jcowan: on my repl, import is unbound
2018-11-08T19:50:09Z jcowan: yes, okay, the REPL has not been updated yet.
2018-11-08T19:50:35Z jcowan: The compiler auto-detects R7RS and DTRT, but not the REPL.
2018-11-08T19:50:35Z ecraven: so there's no way to actually import an r7rs library it the repl yet?
2018-11-08T19:50:41Z jcowan: Seemingly not.
2018-11-08T19:50:46Z ecraven: interesting :P
2018-11-08T19:50:58Z jcowan: You can always load the underlying *-impl.scm files, at least for one of my SRFIs.
2018-11-08T19:51:29Z ecraven: yes, but I've been wanting r7rs libraries in mit-scheme since forever, so I'm very glad they finally are coming!
2018-11-08T19:51:30Z jcowan: I was always prepared for possible use in R5RS
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2018-11-08T19:52:18Z jcowan: SRFI 160 is probably going to be debugged under four Schemes:  Chicken, Chibi, Guile for sure, possibly IronScheme or Ypsilon as well.
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2018-11-08T19:56:04Z ecraven: Riastradh: is there any way to "link" the exports from a given environment (in this case r7rs library, but it looks like a normal environment) to the repl environment '(user)?
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2018-11-08T20:09:11Z Riastradh: ecraven: link-variables?
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2018-11-08T20:10:50Z Riastradh: mejja: What'd I break this time?
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2018-11-08T20:16:05Z mejja: Riastradh,  floenv
2018-11-08T20:16:29Z Riastradh: Broken how?
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2018-11-08T20:17:01Z mejja: make check failure
2018-11-08T20:17:57Z Riastradh: What failure?
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2018-11-08T20:19:03Z mejja: I don't know..
2018-11-08T20:19:08Z mejja: :P
2018-11-08T20:19:10Z Riastradh: Um?  What's it say?
2018-11-08T20:19:39Z mejja: didn't save the log
2018-11-08T20:21:34Z Riastradh: Was it by any chance that floor(0.5) gave -0. instead of 0.?
2018-11-08T20:21:43Z Riastradh: Because if so, joke's on you: it's your compiler that's busted!
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2018-11-08T20:33:06Z mejja: floor is ok.
2018-11-08T20:33:26Z Riastradh: What is it, then?
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2018-11-08T20:49:16Z mejja: It's floor then.
2018-11-08T20:49:38Z ecraven: mejja: what's your gcc version?
2018-11-08T20:49:59Z mejja: gcc 7.3.0
2018-11-08T20:50:02Z ecraven: I run 8.2.1, and floor is broken for -frounding-math -O3 for me
2018-11-08T20:50:24Z ecraven: maybe try https://mumble.net/~campbell/tmp/20181108/floor.c with -frounding-math -O3?
2018-11-08T20:50:25Z Riastradh: mejja: Minimal test case: https://mumble.net/~campbell/tmp/20181108/floor.c
2018-11-08T20:53:50Z mejja: 0.500000 0.000000
2018-11-08T20:53:50Z mejja: 0.500000 -0.000000
2018-11-08T20:53:50Z mejja: 0.500000 0.000000
2018-11-08T20:53:50Z mejja: 0.500000 0.000000
2018-11-08T20:54:17Z ecraven: that's the problem ;)
2018-11-08T20:54:27Z ecraven: should be 0.0 instead of -0.0
2018-11-08T20:58:34Z Riastradh: Could try -O2 instead of -O3.
2018-11-08T20:58:46Z Riastradh: (I don't really know why we do -O3.)
2018-11-08T20:59:29Z mejja: -Os works for me..
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2018-11-08T21:20:25Z ecraven: Riastradh: so, about that ->pathname thing, it seems to happen when you run configure or make (or both?) multiple times in the same directory
2018-11-08T21:20:38Z ecraven: so something gets left over that isn't cleaned up before the next run
2018-11-08T21:21:10Z Riastradh: Fun.
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2018-11-09T02:28:24Z jcowan: Well, I have thought more about monads and their relatives, and come up with a tentative list of derived functions.
2018-11-09T02:29:06Z jcowan: However, the sticky bit is how you create a functor, an idiom (this term is less clear than "applicative functor", but a lot shorter), or a monad instance.
2018-11-09T02:29:51Z jcowan: There are six functions that seem to make sense to allow the instance creator to define: (f)map, sequence(A), pure, ap(ply), join, bind.
2018-11-09T02:31:26Z jcowan: If you want a functor, you must supply map and that's it.  For an idiom, either pure and apply (in which case fmap is not required) or fmap and sequence.  For a monad, either of the rules for an idiom, plus either bind or join.
2018-11-09T02:31:36Z jcowan: The thing is, who can remember all that?
2018-11-09T02:34:53Z ski: (actually, `pure' and `bind' is enough to also get `map' and `ap'. or else `pure', `join', and `map', to get `ap'. also getting `sequence' in both cases, of course)
2018-11-09T02:36:09Z ski: so, i suppose two versions of `make-idiom', and two versions of `make-monad', say
2018-11-09T02:37:32Z ski: presumably an idiom record contains (or extends) a functor record. and a monad record contains (or extends) an idiom record
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2018-11-09T02:39:48Z ski: hm, are there examples of other abstract data types, where it's enough to implement some of the operations (with at least two choices), getting the others for free ?
2018-11-09T02:44:11Z ski: (in the current set-up in Haskell, one always have to define `bind' to give a monad, in addition to giving the idiom and functor operations. so no manual override of `join' (it was considered, but not done, because of some difficulties automatically deriving monad instance for some types). but it might be nice to allow different minimal definitions ..)
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2018-11-09T02:48:11Z ski: so, i suppose (a) one could just give a single way to make an idiom/monad; (b) give two, separate, constructors, but don't allow combining them (giving more operations than strictly necessary, perhaps for efficiency reasons); (c) do give a more general system (a la default implementations in Haskell) that allows specifying more than minimal complete definition of operations
2018-11-09T02:50:19Z ski: (for (c), it might be nice if one could give more than one default implementation of something, and it automatically choses one which breaks the cycle. default implementations in Haskell doesn't allow that)
2018-11-09T02:52:05Z ski: (e.g. if we have operations `foo',`bar',`baz', but only one of these three is needed. each one of them would have two default implementations, in terms of the other two, respectively. so if we override `foo' with a concrete implementation, then `bar' would use the default implementation in terms of `foo' (not in terms of `baz'), and `baz' would use the default implementation in terms of `foo' (not in terms of `bar'))
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2018-11-09T02:57:28Z ski: for (b), we could have `(make-monad-from-bind pure bind)' and `(make-monad-from-join map pure join)' respectively `(make-idiom-from-sequence sequence)' and `(make-idiom-from-pure-and-ap pure ap)'
2018-11-09T02:58:45Z ski: (those names are a bit unwieldy, but you get the point)
2018-11-09T02:58:46Z ski: (hrm, the `...-from-sequence' should also be given `map', right)
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2018-11-09T03:01:20Z ski: for (c), one could imagine something like `(make-monad (define (pure x) ..x..) (define (bind act cont) ..act..cont))' vs. `(make-monad (define (fmap fun act) ..fun..act..) (define (pure x) ..x..) (define (join act-of-act) ..act-of-act..))'
2018-11-09T03:02:24Z ski: where we could reuse the same name `make-monad', but make sure to define enough operations to break the cycles in the default implementations
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2018-11-09T03:05:28Z jcowan tries to understand that
2018-11-09T03:05:29Z ski: (the definitions could be placed outside, if preferred. the point is that here `make-monad' would recognize particular identifiers being defined, so that the operations are identified by name rather than by position, which was the case for (b) above)
2018-11-09T03:05:36Z jcowan: thanks for it all
2018-11-09T03:05:58Z ski: i'm just trying to sketch out a few different possibilities
2018-11-09T03:06:04Z jcowan: yes
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2018-11-09T03:07:08Z ski: (c) is more ambitious. but might perhaps pay off also for other abstract data type interfaces, with extra operations which have default implementations, but which could be overridden, and where perhaps also in some cases one could have several different minimal complete bases
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2018-11-09T03:09:40Z ski: (c) is perhaps starting to smell somewhat similar to some kinds of object-orientation. e.g. one can wonder whether to allow open recursion not only on the initial specification of an "interface" (which would include default implementations), but also after having instantiated
2018-11-09T03:12:35Z ski: (it's definitely not single-dispatch, though. there is no `this'/`self' object. hm, and i'm not as familiar with multiple-dispatch multi-methods in CLOS-like systems, but i think it's also different from that .. cf. "Interface-passing style" by Fare in 2010-02-17 at <https://fare.livejournal.com/155094.html>)
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2018-11-09T03:15:07Z jcowan: my original plan was just map for functors, map + sequence for idioms, map + sequence + bind for monads, but I know it's awkward to define some of these
2018-11-09T03:15:33Z jcowan: I do like the idea of the self-recursive definitions
2018-11-09T03:16:24Z jcowan: < and <= are defined in terms of >, > and >= are defined in terms of <, = and /= are defined in terms of both, or define things with = too, etc. etc.
2018-11-09T03:16:37Z ski: yes
2018-11-09T03:16:39Z jcowan: I think it's a good idea in this case.  Let me understand this about non-positional args
2018-11-09T03:18:10Z ski: the idea there was just to allow one to define as many or as few operations as desired (as long as one covers at least one of the alternative minimal complete bases), without having a proliferation of `make-blah-from-xxx' constructors for each different selection `xxx' of operations to specify
2018-11-09T03:18:20Z Riastradh: Obviously the right thing is to specify any number of minimal sets, and then have the implementation automagically detect which minimal subset you have defined it in terms of, or complain if there isn't one.
2018-11-09T03:18:40Z ski: (of course, not all operations need have default implementations. in that case one always needs to define the ones which doesn't)
2018-11-09T03:18:45Z jcowan: yes, but what is the automagic in question?
2018-11-09T03:18:50Z jcowan: a p-list?
2018-11-09T03:19:15Z ski: Riastradh : that would be ideal, yes
2018-11-09T03:19:56Z Riastradh: Well, it just recursively examines the syntax tree, infers types, monomorphizes the whole program, and determines what works, bingo!
2018-11-09T03:20:11Z jcowan: That would make make-* a macro, which doesn't sound like a win to me.
2018-11-09T03:20:55Z jcowan: in any case, it wouldn't work for creating new instances at runtime
2018-11-09T03:22:24Z jcowan: (make-monad `(pure ,this map ,that join ,tother))
2018-11-09T03:22:32Z ski: (well, i was kinda hoping there'd be no need for type inference, just ("just" ?) to determine which operations are defined, and then possibly also which operations they're defined in terms of)
2018-11-09T03:23:09Z jcowan: right, and positional arguments (six of them) would do that fine, pass a proc or #f.  But it would be extremely easy to get wrong, since all six are opaque procedures.
2018-11-09T03:24:02Z ski: one could imagine using keyword arguments to get non-positional, instead of matching on names (so really, we're matching on the keyword names)
2018-11-09T03:24:24Z ski: jcowan : right, and tedious
2018-11-09T03:24:36Z jcowan: p-lists + backquote = poor man's keywords
2018-11-09T03:24:54Z Riastradh: Adopt Racket's named parameters!
2018-11-09T03:25:15Z jcowan: And make every conformant Scheme do it?  There goes conformance.
2018-11-09T03:25:33Z jcowan: (not to mention that every Scheme with its own keywords has its own notions about it)
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2018-11-09T03:25:56Z Riastradh: Well, when they see the superiority of Racket's named parameters they will recognize the error of their ways.
2018-11-09T03:26:00Z jcowan: Racket-style vs. CL style, and then syntax!  #:foo, foo:, :foo, or some combination thereof, with or without compile-time switches.
2018-11-09T03:26:06Z jcowan: Not.
2018-11-09T03:26:29Z Riastradh: Syntax schmyntax; I don't care about that (except that #: is horrible but whatever).
2018-11-09T03:26:38Z jcowan snickers
2018-11-09T03:26:50Z jcowan: *everyone* cares about lexical syntax
2018-11-09T03:27:03Z Riastradh: I'm willing to hold my nose about that if you get the semantics right.
2018-11-09T03:27:17Z jcowan: it has been observed in the development of conlangs that if you change the syntax, people will adapt, but if you change the morphology (word construction rules), you lose adherents fast.
2018-11-09T03:27:32Z zachk: conlangs?
2018-11-09T03:27:38Z ski: (remind me, is there an SRFI for record types where the constructor (can) take the field values associated with the field names, instead of (necessarily) positional ?)
2018-11-09T03:27:39Z jcowan: Constructed languages
2018-11-09T03:28:54Z jcowan: I don't think so, though with R6RS you can construct your constructors to have any positional args you want.  SRFI-9/R7RS allows only one base constructor and all others must be defined in terms of it, but of course it need not set all (or even any) slots.
2018-11-09T03:34:18Z jcowan: Scheme is the land of BOA constructors.
2018-11-09T03:34:41Z jcowan: (a pun that made it from CLtL to the ANS)
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2018-11-09T04:07:26Z jcowan: the other problem with both Racket-type and CL-type keywords is that the caller can't use them unless the callee expects them, unlike Python or Scala which permit any call to use keywords (matching the formal parameters) or not
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2018-11-09T11:26:32Z rain1: http://www.rntz.net/post/intuitive-hygienic-macros.html any thoughts on how this approach compares with the scope sets?
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2018-11-09T23:27:58Z safinaskar: hi
2018-11-09T23:28:09Z safinaskar: consider this:
2018-11-09T23:28:22Z safinaskar: (define ptr (lambda (x) (list (lambda () x) (lambda (y) (define x y)))))
2018-11-09T23:28:56Z safinaskar: i trying to do this: "ptr" should create pair of functions which can get and set some value
2018-11-09T23:29:04Z safinaskar: now condider this:
2018-11-09T23:29:45Z zachk: you might want to use set! instead of define, maybe macros if you want to pass the name of a variable in
2018-11-09T23:29:55Z Zipheir: safinaskar: That won't work.
2018-11-09T23:30:28Z Zipheir: safinaskar: If you want a form that expands to one or more defines, it'll have to be a macro.
2018-11-09T23:30:40Z safinaskar: (begin (define p (ptr 3)) ((cadr p) 4) ((car p)))
2018-11-09T23:30:51Z safinaskar: i think this should be 4, but i got 3
2018-11-09T23:30:52Z safinaskar: why?
2018-11-09T23:31:11Z safinaskar: now let's consider js variant:
2018-11-09T23:31:12Z safinaskar: let ptr = (x => [() => x, y => void (x = y)])
2018-11-09T23:31:39Z safinaskar: let p = ptr(3); p[1](4); p[0]()
2018-11-09T23:31:47Z safinaskar: i got 4, as i want
2018-11-09T23:31:57Z safinaskar: so, js variant works, and scheme doesn't. why?
2018-11-09T23:32:09Z Zipheir: Scheme is not JS, for a start.
2018-11-09T23:32:22Z zachk: you could use a closure and message passing into the closure to get and set it's value
2018-11-09T23:32:38Z Zipheir: safinaskar: What zachk said. ^^
2018-11-09T23:32:39Z zachk: return a lambda from your lambda
2018-11-09T23:33:38Z on_ion: its*
2018-11-09T23:33:40Z zachk: or in your lambda, return a list of lambdas that set and get the value bound in the outer lambda
2018-11-09T23:34:12Z safinaskar: hmmm, i replaced (define x y) with (set! x y) and now it works
2018-11-09T23:34:13Z safinaskar: why?
2018-11-09T23:34:27Z safinaskar: why set! works (just as in js) and define doesn't?
2018-11-09T23:35:05Z zachk: define will define a a new variable, some schemes only at top level, others inside lexical scope
2018-11-09T23:35:06Z Zipheir: Read https://schemers.org/Documents/Standards/R5RS/HTML/r5rs-Z-H-2.html#%_toc_%_sec_5.2 for why define doesn't work that way.
2018-11-09T23:35:21Z zachk: can you define inside local scopes in most schemes these days?
2018-11-09T23:35:27Z safinaskar: zachk: thanks
2018-11-09T23:35:32Z safinaskar: now it seems i understand
2018-11-09T23:35:39Z Zipheir: zachk: Only after a define or let, iirc
2018-11-09T23:35:54Z safinaskar: "define" simply create absolutely new entity and set! doesn't
2018-11-09T23:36:05Z Zipheir: zachk: R5: "Definitions may occur at the beginning of a <body> (that is, the body of a lambda, let, let*, letrec, let-syntax, or letrec-syntax expression or that of a definition of an appropriate form)."
2018-11-09T23:36:07Z safinaskar: thus if i use set! i got absolutely js-like behaviour
2018-11-09T23:36:08Z safinaskar: thanks
2018-11-09T23:36:35Z Zipheir: "absolutely js-like behaviour" ... is not necessarily a good thing. There may be a better way to do what you're trying to do.
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2018-11-09T23:37:21Z zachk: javascript was slightly modeled on scheme, iirc
2018-11-09T23:38:14Z Zipheir: Usually if you're thinking in terms of mutating stuff through pointers there's probably a better way to do it in the land of lisp.
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2018-11-09T23:39:50Z zachk: sometimes mutation is nice
2018-11-09T23:39:54Z safinaskar: "The good parts of JS go back to Scheme and Self, so all credit to Guy, Gerry, David, Craig, et al." /be - Brendan Eich - https://www.jwz.org/blog/2010/10/every-day-i-learn-something-new-and-stupid/#comment-1089
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2018-11-09T23:41:11Z on_ion: that feels like a general statement applicable to all or many languages
2018-11-09T23:41:33Z Zipheir: "All credit to Alonzo, Alan and Kurt."
2018-11-09T23:41:49Z zachk: Kurt? Godel?
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2018-11-09T23:41:50Z safinaskar: Ten days to implement the lexer, parser, bytecode emitter (which I folded into the parser; required some code buffering to reorder things like the for(;;) loop head parts and body), interpreter, built-in classes, and decompiler <...> Ten days without much sleep to build JS from scratch, "make it look like Java" (I made it look like C), and smuggle in its saving graces: first class functions (closures
2018-11-09T23:41:56Z safinaskar: came later but were part of the plan), Self-ish prototypes (one per instance, not many as in Self) /be
2018-11-09T23:42:06Z safinaskar: I'll do better in the next life. /be - https://www.jwz.org/blog/2010/10/every-day-i-learn-something-new-and-stupid/#comment-1048
2018-11-09T23:42:42Z Zipheir: The horror, the horror.
2018-11-09T23:45:01Z on_ion: hmm. i don't mind js
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2018-11-09T23:45:21Z Zipheir: zachk: Well, KG's was the third of the definitions of effective computability that are usually mentioned.
2018-11-09T23:45:39Z Zipheir: zachk: If not as famous or influential as the other two.
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2018-11-10T01:19:56Z safinaskar: hi all
2018-11-10T01:20:01Z safinaskar: why this works?   (begin (begin (define x 3)) x)
2018-11-10T01:20:10Z safinaskar: i think "begin" should create new scope, but it seems it doesn't
2018-11-10T01:20:39Z on_ion: because (let (x 3) ..)
2018-11-10T01:21:35Z safinaskar: so, "begin" doesn't create new scope and "let" creates, right?
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2018-11-10T01:22:45Z safinaskar: hmm, (let () (let () (define x 3)) x) gives error, i. e. it gives what i want. thanks
2018-11-10T01:22:51Z Riastradh: safinaskar: That's part of the point of begin -- it _doesn't_ create a new scope.
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2018-11-10T01:23:01Z Riastradh: Rather, it splices.  This is critical for, e.g., macros.
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2018-11-10T01:25:00Z on_ion: ah. did not know that; though i've read some of it in the chez manual recently
2018-11-10T01:25:11Z safinaskar: consider this: (begin (define f (lambda () x)) (define x 3) (f))
2018-11-10T01:25:15Z safinaskar: why this works?
2018-11-10T01:25:40Z Zipheir: Why wouldn't it work?
2018-11-10T01:25:59Z on_ion: x can be referenced before it is defined
2018-11-10T01:26:06Z safinaskar: Zipheir: because "x" is not exists when we define "f"
2018-11-10T01:26:17Z Zipheir: safinaskar: When is x evaluated?
2018-11-10T01:26:26Z on_ion: scheme is dynamic lookup. so x can be anything anytime
2018-11-10T01:26:33Z safinaskar: consider js variant: { let f = (() => x); let x = 3; f(); }
2018-11-10T01:26:37Z Zipheir: on_ion: No it is not.
2018-11-10T01:26:52Z on_ion: no?
2018-11-10T01:27:02Z Zipheir: on_ion: x appears in a lambda body above. It is not evaluated until (f).
2018-11-10T01:27:14Z safinaskar: ooooops, js variant doesn't give error, too
2018-11-10T01:27:19Z on_ion: (begin (define f (lambda () x))) .... also works, if not calling f.
2018-11-10T01:27:19Z safinaskar: i'm surprised
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2018-11-10T01:27:42Z on_ion: Zipheir: right. thats the thing.
2018-11-10T01:27:54Z Riastradh: safinaskar: The variables are bound, and in an environment where the variables are bound, the right-hand side expressions are evaluated to determine their values.
2018-11-10T01:28:10Z realfascism: are there any nosql databases in scheme? like spark ignite hadoop cassandra?  would cassandra be nicer if done in scheme?
2018-11-10T01:28:21Z realfascism: ristradh how are you!!??? I have not learned to type
2018-11-10T01:28:26Z Riastradh: safinaskar: If you _use_ the value of x -- rather than simply create a closure over the binding of x -- then it will fail.
2018-11-10T01:28:29Z realfascism is now known as gavino_himself
2018-11-10T01:28:30Z gavino_himself: :)
2018-11-10T01:28:59Z gavino_himself: can chckien scheme liek awful combined with psotgresql outdo LAMP?  or is php pretty much as good?
2018-11-10T01:29:18Z safinaskar: well, okey, it seems i understand
2018-11-10T01:29:21Z safinaskar: but consider this:
2018-11-10T01:29:22Z safinaskar: (begin (define x 3) (define f (lambda () x)) (define x 4) (f))
2018-11-10T01:29:32Z safinaskar: this is absolutely brain-fuck code fragment
2018-11-10T01:29:35Z safinaskar: it gives 4
2018-11-10T01:29:37Z gavino_himself: paul grahan said he forked 1 lisp interpterer per client which would ahve conversatio with client! brilliant! and eh fakeed continuations with closuers is this possible in scheme?
2018-11-10T01:29:38Z safinaskar: why 4???????!
2018-11-10T01:29:43Z safinaskar: why not 3?????????!
2018-11-10T01:29:46Z Riastradh: safinaskar: At the top level, the second definition has the effect of set!.
2018-11-10T01:30:12Z gavino_himself: I really should read sicp and htdp2
2018-11-10T01:30:25Z safinaskar: Riastradh: i am running my last example not in top level
2018-11-10T01:30:55Z Zipheir: safinaskar: Again, when are you evaluating x?
2018-11-10T01:31:12Z Riastradh: Maybe this changed in the R7RS, but prior to that, at least, multiple definitions of the same name in one scope (beneath the top level) is invalid.
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2018-11-10T01:34:42Z Zipheir: safinaskar: (let ((x 3)) (let ((f (lambda () x))) (let ((x 4)) (f)))) ; => 4
2018-11-10T01:34:55Z Zipheir: safinaskar: Maybe you're being mislead by the defines.
2018-11-10T01:35:38Z Zipheir: Oops, I meant 3.
2018-11-10T01:36:27Z Zipheir: Whereas what you've got doesn't have all the nested scopes.
2018-11-10T01:37:03Z gavino_himself: is scheme used for big data? in fintech? the cmplexity conquered by scheme more easily would seem valuable
2018-11-10T01:47:08Z safinaskar: on_ion: now i understand everything. scheme has lexical scope, not dynamic scope. this is important thing you should understand. if you don't understand, please consult other people in this channel. (begin (define f (lambda () x)) (define x 3) (f)) works, because of "x" is defined in the same scope lambda is created. but (begin (define f (lambda () x)) (let () (define x 3) (f))) doesn't work and should
2018-11-10T01:47:14Z safinaskar: not work, because lambda is created in scope where there is no "x"
2018-11-10T01:50:08Z Zipheir: Right.
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2018-11-10T02:33:32Z jcowan: I can't imagine there are any surviving Schemes that don't permit internal defines.  Some still don't permit internal define-syntax, and there is still a disagreement about whether the body of a let-syntax or let*-syntax constitutes a lexical scope for ordinary variables or not.
2018-11-10T02:33:52Z jcowan: R7RS did not resolve this, partly because of the ignorance of yours truly.
2018-11-10T02:35:00Z siraben: Internal macros seem a little confusing though
2018-11-10T02:35:31Z siraben: Well, then again one should make defines of any sort respect the same scoping rules.
2018-11-10T02:38:22Z jcowan: Oh yes, let-syntax limits the scope of a macro.  The question is, is the body a begin-body (splicing) or a let-() body (non-splicing)?
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2018-11-10T02:46:05Z safinaskar: hi
2018-11-10T02:46:21Z Zipheir: Hi again.
2018-11-10T02:46:34Z safinaskar: (let () (let () (begin (define x 5))) x)
2018-11-10T02:46:38Z safinaskar: this works
2018-11-10T02:46:39Z safinaskar: why?
2018-11-10T02:47:08Z safinaskar: and this doesn't: (let () (let () (define y 5)) y)
2018-11-10T02:47:09Z safinaskar: why?
2018-11-10T02:48:57Z safinaskar: tested on https://repl.it/languages/scheme
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2018-11-10T02:49:57Z Zipheir: safinaskar: The former is an error in CHICKEN.
2018-11-10T02:50:37Z Zipheir: rudybot: eval (let () (let () (begin (define x 5))) x)
2018-11-10T02:50:47Z rudybot: Zipheir: error: with-limit: out of time
2018-11-10T02:50:50Z Zipheir: grr
2018-11-10T02:51:04Z aeth: The robot rebellion has already begun!
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2018-11-10T02:52:00Z Zipheir: rudybot: Et tu, Brute?
2018-11-10T02:52:01Z rudybot: Zipheir: ESR? Et tu, Brute?
2018-11-10T02:52:54Z safinaskar: so, there is an error in this concrete implementation, right?
2018-11-10T02:53:07Z safinaskar: so, please give me some good online implementation
2018-11-10T02:54:10Z Zipheir: That does seem to be an error, since x should be local to the internal let.
2018-11-10T02:54:36Z safinaskar: Zipheir: so why (let () (let () (begin (define x 5))) x) gives 5?
2018-11-10T02:55:15Z Zipheir: If I'm reading the spec right, it shouldn't.
2018-11-10T02:55:20Z Zipheir: x should be unbound.
2018-11-10T02:55:55Z Zipheir: R5RS: 'The variable defined by an internal definition is local to the <body>.'
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2018-11-10T05:42:51Z Riastradh: jcowan: Answer: let-syntax should be splicing.
2018-11-10T05:42:55Z Riastradh: See?  Easy!
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2018-11-10T14:38:14Z siraben: Does anyone know of a microkanren implementation in Scheme with the =/= operator?
2018-11-10T14:41:53Z qu1j0t3: siraben: Yeah, there were revisions with constraints published, check with vanilla in #minikanren (iirc)
2018-11-10T14:42:08Z qu1j0t3: siraben: Byrd might have made some versions available
2018-11-10T14:42:17Z siraben: Oh, constraints means =/= is added?
2018-11-10T14:42:36Z qu1j0t3: yes
2018-11-10T14:42:39Z qu1j0t3: it's a constraint
2018-11-10T14:42:45Z qu1j0t3: the first one you really want, i think
2018-11-10T14:42:54Z siraben: Ah of course.
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2018-11-10T14:43:32Z qu1j0t3: and there has been a little activity on this in the Minikanren google group
2018-11-10T14:45:47Z qu1j0t3: hm, checking.. i thought there was an implementation people were talking about
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2018-11-10T14:50:59Z qu1j0t3: can't quite find it. you could try simply asking for the currently preferred implementation... Byrd and Friedman are both active in that group
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2018-11-10T15:13:14Z siraben: http://andykeep.com/SchemeWorkshop2015/papers/sfpw3-2015-hemann-friedman.pdf
2018-11-10T15:13:20Z siraben: I think this is the paper you were referring to.
2018-11-10T15:17:24Z jcowan: Riastradh: You answered an 'is' question with an 'ought'.  :-(
2018-11-10T15:18:41Z rain1: siraben: https://github.com/orchid-hybrid/microKanren-sagittarius/blob/master/miruKanren/disequality.scm
2018-11-10T15:19:53Z siraben: rain1: I'm aware of that implementation, but it's not "minimal"
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2018-11-10T15:20:42Z rain1: yeah it is
2018-11-10T15:21:26Z siraben: Maybe it's just me but I feel that I would not have been able to understand microkanren without reading the original paper
2018-11-10T15:21:50Z siraben: So I see the code but I don't understand why it implements =/=.
2018-11-10T15:21:58Z rain1: have you tried reading the comments
2018-11-10T15:22:02Z siraben: Not why, sorry, I mean how
2018-11-10T15:23:08Z siraben: Yes, I have tried.
2018-11-10T15:25:02Z rain1: in mk-diseq there are 2 constraint stores. one for unification and one for disequalities. when you do (== x y) it adds to the unification constraint store and when you do (=/= x y) it adds to the disequality constraint store
2018-11-10T15:25:55Z rain1: when you solve unification constraints you get a substitution which can be interpreted as a list of normalized equations
2018-11-10T15:27:25Z rain1: normalizing the disequality store means doing things like: deleting (=/= 'a 'b), turning (=/= (cons 'a x) (cons 'b y)) into (=/= x y), (=/= (cons x y) (cons u v)) into (or (=/= x u) (=/= y v))
2018-11-10T15:28:00Z rain1: normalization is implemented by making use of the substitution you get from unification under de morgans law
2018-11-10T16:00:40Z siraben: Ah, that helps my understanding. Thanks!
2018-11-10T16:15:11Z Riastradh: jcowan: Exactly, whoever implements it differently is wrong!
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2018-11-10T16:16:06Z jcowan: I have however been giving serious thought to the question of Racket-style keywords.
2018-11-10T16:18:56Z jcowan: I think I understand the reasons for making them non-self-evaluating, but I think it is unnecessary and will raise strong resistance in other implementers.
2018-11-10T16:20:09Z jcowan: The core Racketeers will not be moved by anything that R7RS-* does, so their opinion of what use I make of their ideas is irrelevant, unless indeed it leads to a public campaign against R7RS-*.
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2018-11-10T16:26:55Z Riastradh: If they're self-evaluating, what arguments does (f #:x 3) pass?
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2018-11-10T16:29:26Z jcowan: In that context, #:x is not an argument and so is not evaluated.  At least, so I think now.  I need to study Racket further, though.
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2018-11-10T16:30:18Z jcowan: What I wish to not support is something like (let ((x #:x)) (f x 3))
2018-11-10T16:30:31Z jcowan: that is, keywords in function calls must be manifest
2018-11-10T16:30:50Z Riastradh: What does (let ((x #:x) (y 3)) x) do?
2018-11-10T16:31:35Z jcowan: returns #:x
2018-11-10T16:31:48Z Riastradh: What does ((lambda (x y) x) #:x 3) do?
2018-11-10T16:32:29Z jcowan: It's an error
2018-11-10T16:32:43Z Riastradh: So there's no longer a let<->lambda equivalence?
2018-11-10T16:33:05Z jcowan: In the presence of keywords, yes.  Hmmm.
2018-11-10T16:35:12Z jcowan: I suppose a way around this is to use a different name and lexical syntax for keywords-in-function-calls and not allow them to be values.
2018-11-10T16:35:31Z jcowan: "argument names"
2018-11-10T16:38:32Z jcowan: I note that Racket keywords break `apply`, requiring you to call `keyword-apply` instead.
2018-11-10T16:38:52Z Riastradh: Not exactly.  For all procedures that apply worked on before, it still works.
2018-11-10T16:39:26Z Riastradh: If you want to allow arbitrary keyword arguments and pass them along, then yes, you need keyword-apply.
2018-11-10T16:40:56Z jcowan: Well, sure.  But that means that keyword-procedures are now a slightly different type from procedures.
2018-11-10T16:44:56Z jcowan rereads Flatt's paper
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2018-11-10T17:21:11Z jcowan: Arcfide keywords, which are fully portable to R5RS, are equivalent in power to CL keywords, but fall down on the inability of the R6RS/R7RS library system to ignore distinct but lexically identical bindings of the same identifier in different libraries, which would create conflicts.
2018-11-10T17:22:46Z jcowan: Backquote+plist+let-keyword is also portable (assuming that let-keyword can be defined with syntax-rules) and is very nearly as convenient as CL keywords with no conflicts possible.
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2018-11-10T17:43:48Z on_ion: =)
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2018-11-10T20:06:29Z Zipheir: What's a backquote-plist-let keyword? Web search is unenlightening.
2018-11-10T20:07:11Z ecraven: backquote is `
2018-11-10T20:07:20Z ecraven: plist is probably a list like '(:foo 1 :bar 2 :baaz 3)
2018-11-10T20:07:32Z ecraven: let-keyword is some form of let, related to keywords
2018-11-10T20:07:58Z ecraven: plist as opposed to alist, which would be '((:foo . 1) (:bar . 2) (:baaz . 3))
2018-11-10T20:08:07Z ecraven: I think it stands for property list
2018-11-10T20:08:12Z ecraven: against association list?
2018-11-10T20:08:15Z Zipheir: Something like (foo `(key1 ,val1 ... keyn ,valn)), and foo takes that apart with let/assv, I assume.
2018-11-10T20:08:43Z ecraven: not sure how that would look exactly :-/ jcowan ^
2018-11-10T20:09:20Z Zipheir: Oh, let-keyword
2018-11-10T20:10:31Z Zipheir: Yeah, I'm curious as well.
2018-11-10T20:11:41Z Zipheir: Oops, not assv, it's a plist.
2018-11-10T20:13:02Z ecraven: emacs calls them plist-get and plist-put
2018-11-10T20:13:58Z ecraven: I think it's getf in CL.. (getf plist indicator) and (setf (getf plist indicator) value)
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2018-11-10T20:29:11Z jcowan: I am not a syntax-rules programmer, alas, but I imagine a shape like (let-keywords <expr> <lambda-list> . <body>), where the variables in the lambda-list are initially bound to some distinguished object and then the <expr>, which must evaluate to a plist, is searched to assign values to the variables based on the keywords.  I fear this may be unhygienic, but perhaps not.
2018-11-10T20:29:40Z rain1: yeah the thing Riastradh pointed out about keywords is a really tricky problem
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2018-11-10T20:30:11Z jcowan: that's why #:foo is syntactic magic in Racket and only '#:foo is a value
2018-11-10T20:30:25Z rain1: hmm
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2018-11-10T20:32:35Z Riastradh: You can always write plist crap with macros and what have you.  If you're going to endorse a language-level thing, you should do Racket keyword semantics.
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2018-11-10T20:33:16Z jcowan: On the whole I prefer the crap, I think.
2018-11-10T20:33:30Z jcowan: The best is the enemy of the good.
2018-11-10T20:35:06Z Riastradh: Just try not to get in the way of good keywords.
2018-11-10T20:35:13Z jcowan shrugs.
2018-11-10T20:35:20Z rain1: so if you add keywords wth the syntax magic thing
2018-11-10T20:35:38Z rain1: how does that interact with writing macros that do things with syntax that includes keywords in them?
2018-11-10T20:35:40Z jcowan: p-lists obviously don't need any lexical syntax
2018-11-10T20:35:52Z rain1: this seems problematic
2018-11-10T20:35:56Z Riastradh: rain1: What interactions are you wondering about?
2018-11-10T20:35:56Z jcowan decides to bite another bullet and try to undersatnd R6RS record constructors.
2018-11-10T20:36:19Z Riastradh: Biting bullets seems hazardous to one's health.  What if they go off in your mouth?
2018-11-10T20:36:27Z jcowan: s/constructors/&-descriptors
2018-11-10T20:36:38Z jcowan: Not cartridged bullets, just the lump of lead.
2018-11-10T20:36:52Z rain1: Riastradh: well if i define my-let in terms of lambda then write #:kwd like you showed above
2018-11-10T20:37:03Z rain1: does the system reject that before expansion?
2018-11-10T20:37:11Z jcowan: They used to give you one during unanesthetized field surgery to distract you from screaming.
2018-11-10T20:37:27Z rain1: or does it simply expand it and see that the keyword is in an ok place and accept it?
2018-11-10T20:37:30Z Riastradh: rain1: No, after expansion (and of course it would be nice if the expander tracked history).
2018-11-10T20:37:40Z Riastradh: rain1: Same as any other syntax error in a macro expansion.
2018-11-10T20:37:54Z rain1: by what mechanism would it reject it after expansion? given that it ends up in a syntactically valid lambda
2018-11-10T20:38:11Z rain1: would you use something like scope sets to say that the keyword has to have the same scope as the procedure call site?
2018-11-10T20:38:13Z Riastradh: Oh, sorry, not a syntax error, but a runtime error of wrong arguments.
2018-11-10T20:38:24Z Riastradh: (which is, of course, syntactically obvious, so the compiler could tell you about it)
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2018-11-10T20:56:09Z jcowan: What about keyword arguments in *macro* definitions?
2018-11-10T20:57:45Z Riastradh: Dunno, haven't thought about that.
2018-11-10T20:57:47Z jcowan: Also, I note from Flatt's paper that the mechanism requires applicable records to be deeply wired into the bottom level, which fortunately they already were in Racket.  As we saw earlier, applicable-records-as-procedures are fine, if messy, macrology, but can't handle a type predicate at all (how do you ask a random procedure if it is a record, much less a record of a given type?)
2018-11-10T20:57:51Z Riastradh: Maybe someone in Racketland has?
2018-11-10T20:58:27Z Riastradh: The mechanism doesn't intrinsically require anything about applicable records.
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2018-11-10T21:03:07Z jcowan: I meant "the mechanism used in Racket".
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2018-11-10T21:03:36Z jcowan: One thing I will cheerfully adopt from that paper is the syntax-rules definition of optional arguments.
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2018-11-10T22:58:07Z jcowan has been defeated by R6RS record construction protocols once again
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2018-11-11T01:00:52Z on_ion: =o
2018-11-11T01:04:57Z mejja: rudybot, Ladies and Gentlemen: https://groups.csail.mit.edu/mac/ftpdir/scheme-mail/HTML/rrrs-1987/msg00164.html
2018-11-11T01:05:04Z rudybot: mejja: ,,stefan-justification is http://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/emacs-devel/2012-11/msg00164.html
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2018-11-11T01:18:14Z Zipheir: "... we employed Moon's Maxim: Do Not Standardize On Research. ... If you follow this, you will not include any technically flawed features, only technically retarded ones."
2018-11-11T01:18:19Z Zipheir: :)
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2018-11-11T01:30:13Z mejja: rudybot, We actively tried to exclude people from our inner circle.
2018-11-11T01:30:22Z rudybot: mejja: ,dc erc-track-exclude-types
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2018-11-11T01:35:16Z Zipheir: Very interesting stuff.
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2018-11-11T01:36:20Z mejja: jcowan, _Standardization is codifying and specifying existing, proven practice with minor cleanup_
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2018-11-11T01:47:31Z jcowan: mejja: That's an ideal to shoot for, but it's not always the case.
2018-11-11T01:49:14Z jcowan: In particular, standard Scheme is *very* technically retarded.  I'm trying to lay foundations.  If the community doesn't like them, they can vote them out of the standard.
2018-11-11T01:52:17Z jcowan: I note the phrase "If Scheme currently includes only necessary features" in the RPG letter.  It doesn't and never has.  `length` is not a necessary feature (you can define it yourself easily) and yet it is in all Scheme standards and even in CL.
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2018-11-11T01:58:23Z aeth: On the other hand, if you only want to implement features that can't necessarily be implemented efficiently yourself, Scheme doesn't offer that, either, since it doesn't offer hash tables.
2018-11-11T01:58:51Z jcowan: R6RS does.
2018-11-11T01:58:57Z aeth: We're counting r6rs now?
2018-11-11T01:58:57Z jcowan: as does R7RS-Red
2018-11-11T01:59:18Z gwatt: r6rs is still scheme
2018-11-11T01:59:23Z jcowan: It's a flawed standard, but all standards are flawed.  Parts of the community have decided to live with it, parts have not.
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2018-11-11T02:23:22Z Riastradh: The R6RS is older now than the R5RS was when the R6RS was finalized.
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2018-11-11T02:36:16Z mejja: Riastradh: Can you build the microcode with CFLAGS=-Os?
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2018-11-11T02:44:39Z Riastradh: mejja: I can now!
2018-11-11T02:46:29Z mejja: ha!
2018-11-11T02:50:51Z mejja: I think I need a new c compiler..
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2018-11-11T02:55:46Z Riastradh: mejja: What now?
2018-11-11T02:56:36Z mejja: same error
2018-11-11T02:56:45Z Riastradh: What is it?
2018-11-11T02:57:05Z mejja: bits.h:77:19: error: inlining failed in call to ‘ulong_bit_count’
2018-11-11T02:57:17Z Riastradh: Rerun Setup.sh.
2018-11-11T03:01:50Z mejja: running make CFLAGS=-Os in microcode/ works but not ./configure CFLAGS=-Os & make
2018-11-11T03:04:12Z Riastradh: Works for me, what happens when you try?
2018-11-11T03:10:13Z mejja: Not for me.
2018-11-11T03:10:22Z Riastradh: ...what happens when you try?
2018-11-11T03:11:02Z mejja: Same error. bits.h:77:19: error: inlining failed in call to ‘ulong_bit_count’
2018-11-11T03:11:15Z Riastradh: Is it being compiled with -Winline?  What compiler, what version?
2018-11-11T03:13:00Z mejja: gcc 7.3.0
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2018-11-11T15:39:26Z samlamamma: Hey, how do you do tracing GC in a language that has continuations? (since you dynamically allocate new roots)
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2018-11-11T18:45:18Z jcowan: Riastradh: R5RS was really only a bugfix version of R4RS, other than pulling syntax-rules into the main body of the standard.
2018-11-11T18:47:37Z jcowan: So from R2RS, when Scheme standardization begins, to R4RS is six years, then 16 years to R6RS, then 6 more to R7RS-small, and 5 years have passed since then.
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2018-11-11T18:54:57Z on_ion: hmm. guile says it is just R5RS
2018-11-11T19:03:29Z Zipheir: They're aiming at R7 compliance, but it seems that effort is stalled.
2018-11-11T19:04:03Z on_ion: hrm. well designed language, though
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2018-11-11T19:04:19Z on_ion: (and goops)
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2018-11-11T19:26:20Z jcowan: ski, Zipheir: my functor/idiom/monad pre-SRFI is ready for review at https://bitbucket.org/cowan/r7rs-wg1-infra/src/default/ContextsCowan.md
2018-11-11T19:26:46Z jcowan: it's just a sketch, but indicates my current set of ideas
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2018-11-11T19:37:54Z jcowan: Oops, forgot to define idiom-sequence.  Fixed.
2018-11-11T19:41:51Z Zipheir: jcowan: Great, can't wait to take a look.
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2018-11-11T19:54:39Z rain1: what about making the context a dynamically bound variable
2018-11-11T20:06:32Z Zipheir: jcowan: I'm assuming (monad-bind c mproc cobj ...) applies mproc to the unwrapped cobjs in sequence. The document just says 'applies mproc to their values, and returns the results wrapped in the context.'
2018-11-11T20:08:32Z Zipheir: (That's the only way it seems to make sense, since mproc : obj -> cobj isn't variadic, IIUC.)
2018-11-11T20:10:38Z jcowan: yes, sorry, forgot to patch it up
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2018-11-11T20:11:46Z jcowan: I really am not a fan of dynamic binding, because if you are writing a library you have to write (parameterize ...) around every call whose results depend on a parameter in order to be sure you get the results you want.  Cf. the use of comparator arguments for sets, hashtables, etc.
2018-11-11T20:12:01Z rain1: ok
2018-11-11T20:12:14Z jcowan: Granted, you normally only have to pass in a comparator when creating a data structure.
2018-11-11T20:12:44Z Riastradh: rain1: You really don't want it to be dynamically bound because it doesn't follow a dynamic extent.  You really want it to be statically associated with the code you're using...
2018-11-11T20:12:51Z Riastradh: ..e.g., by having it be part of the static type...
2018-11-11T20:13:11Z rain1: oh yeah i see that now
2018-11-11T20:13:19Z jcowan: If you want Haskell/Scala/Hackett you know where to find them.
2018-11-11T20:13:48Z jcowan: In principle I suppose the instance could be found by having a table mapping type predicates to instances.
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2018-11-11T20:23:42Z Zipheir: jcowan: Is it implied that mprocs can be impure?
2018-11-11T20:24:08Z jcowan: Yes, it's your foot, shoot it if you want.
2018-11-11T20:24:15Z Zipheir: Heh
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2018-11-11T20:24:34Z Zipheir: Well, with things like monad-and-then that apply an mproc but discard the result...
2018-11-11T20:24:49Z jcowan: for that matter, procs can be impure
2018-11-11T20:25:22Z jcowan: and-then (Haskell >>) tends to come up in the IO monad, which in our case is all the rest of Scheme.
2018-11-11T20:25:44Z Zipheir: Right, that's why I'm curious as to its intended use here.
2018-11-11T20:26:26Z Riastradh: In Haskell, of course, the parts of your program that _can_ have effects are set apart from those that are guaranteed not to by their static types, so it's clear.
2018-11-11T20:32:08Z Zipheir: I guess the question is whether it's possible to do effectful programming with contexts.
2018-11-11T20:32:35Z Zipheir: AFAICT, why not.
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2018-11-11T22:08:17Z jcowan: You could certainly have an IO type consisting of any old parameterless procedure.
2018-11-11T22:08:35Z jcowan: But do you mean effectful or side-effectful?
2018-11-11T22:08:41Z jcowan: Zipheir: ^^
2018-11-11T22:10:01Z Zipheir: Blah, I don't know what I meant. Obviously idioms/monads can do effectful programming.
2018-11-11T22:10:58Z Zipheir: Too much random thinking and not enough coffee.
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2018-11-11T23:21:36Z trafaret1: hi there
2018-11-11T23:23:15Z on_ion: hello
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2018-11-11T23:30:30Z trafaret1: Is there big difference between CL and Scheme?
2018-11-11T23:30:49Z on_ion: nah, kind of
2018-11-11T23:30:53Z trafaret1: I just decided to learn one lisp famaly langauge
2018-11-11T23:30:59Z on_ion: scheme is a good start
2018-11-11T23:31:12Z on_ion: i think it is more appropriate as a start than CL
2018-11-11T23:31:23Z wasamasa: trafaret1: is there a big difference between java and javascript?
2018-11-11T23:31:36Z on_ion: yes
2018-11-11T23:31:40Z on_ion: =O
2018-11-11T23:31:54Z wasamasa: they both belong to the algol family after all
2018-11-11T23:32:35Z on_ion: we can be pedantic or we can help the guy out
2018-11-11T23:32:39Z trafaret1: is it also possible to programm smart devices for IoT in scheme?
2018-11-11T23:33:09Z wasamasa: the question is rather whether you'd want to do that...
2018-11-11T23:33:22Z wasamasa: these devices aren't as smart as they believe
2018-11-11T23:33:28Z on_ion: ....
2018-11-11T23:33:32Z on_ion: wasamasa are you helping or
2018-11-11T23:33:32Z wasamasa: some of them are rather restricted in what runs on them
2018-11-11T23:34:33Z trafaret1: wasamasa: maybe there are some hardware for lisp famaly?
2018-11-11T23:34:41Z wasamasa: there is, yes
2018-11-11T23:34:46Z wasamasa: but it's not like it runs anywhere
2018-11-11T23:34:54Z on_ion: ......
2018-11-11T23:34:58Z wasamasa: you are limited by the vendor of your hardware, not the language
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2018-11-11T23:39:49Z trafaret1: wasamasa: how hard it might be to move from functional paradigm into OOP or structural?
2018-11-11T23:40:16Z wasamasa: tias
2018-11-11T23:40:50Z wasamasa: personally, I find it easier than the other way around
2018-11-11T23:41:02Z pjb: trafaret1:  Have a look at (intersection common-lisp emacs-lisp scheme) http://www.informatimago.com/develop/lisp/com/informatimago/small-cl-pgms/intersection-r5rs-common-lisp-emacs-lisp/
2018-11-11T23:41:03Z rudybot: http://teensy.info/X56wi8kOXh
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2018-11-11T23:45:02Z trafaret1: it seems to me that cl is silver bullet for all problems with silly GUI :)
2018-11-11T23:45:08Z trafaret1: without*
2018-11-11T23:45:29Z wasamasa: there is no such thing as a silver bullet
2018-11-11T23:46:24Z wasamasa: suppose you want to do IoT stuff and your device uses the zigbee protocol, then you'd be screwed
2018-11-11T23:46:55Z wasamasa: you'd need to write a library first
2018-11-11T23:47:05Z trafaret1: ok I get you
2018-11-11T23:47:18Z trafaret1: reinventing
2018-11-11T23:47:30Z wasamasa: whereas there's plenty of libraries for that in C, JS, java, etc.
2018-11-11T23:47:53Z pjb: And who wrote them?
2018-11-11T23:48:05Z wasamasa: less lazy people :P
2018-11-11T23:48:25Z pjb: Also, you can write, eg. a C-to-scheme translator, and just load those C libraries.
2018-11-11T23:48:45Z wasamasa: sure thing, let's commission trafaret1 to do that
2018-11-11T23:49:33Z trafaret1: is it possible at all?
2018-11-11T23:49:58Z wasamasa: in practice you'd pick your preferred scheme with C interop and write a binding to the library
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2018-11-11T23:50:36Z wasamasa: same goes for java, JS, etc.
2018-11-11T23:51:13Z trafaret1: just find out way to pass values betwen c libraries and scheme
2018-11-11T23:52:19Z trafaret1: I'm not not programmer I may be wrong :)
2018-11-11T23:53:13Z on_ion: scheme ffi is generally nice. check out gambit, guile, chez
2018-11-11T23:53:52Z Zipheir: trafaret1: Good, don't be a not programmer.
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2018-11-11T23:55:14Z wasamasa: be a nand programmer
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2018-11-11T23:56:30Z Riastradh: What if I wanna be a spinning rust programmer instead?
2018-11-11T23:57:16Z wasamasa: most rust programmers don't spin, they evangelize
2018-11-11T23:58:19Z Zipheir: zing!
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2018-11-12T00:00:29Z trafaret1: among yours how many ppl use scheme in work time?
2018-11-12T00:01:02Z on_ion: 99,0000
2018-11-12T00:01:27Z wasamasa: 3
2018-11-12T00:01:54Z wasamasa: myself included
2018-11-12T00:03:34Z trafaret1: trully I can't seen yet  where employer want to hire scheme programmer
2018-11-12T00:03:46Z Zipheir: How many more do we need before the language gets good?
2018-11-12T00:04:50Z on_ion: if ur doing scheme then u should hire ppl because ur a shephard. else be a sheep live happy
2018-11-12T00:05:22Z trafaret1: on_ion: good explanation
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2018-11-12T00:12:49Z Zipheir: trafaret1: If something's interesting enough to ask whether it's worth learning, it's probably easier to just learn it and find out for yourself.
2018-11-12T00:18:46Z trafaret1: Zipheir: I assume that scheme or basically lips famaly langauges good for generating reports and for fast prototyping
2018-11-12T00:22:24Z on_ion: try emacs lisp for those tasks
2018-11-12T00:23:03Z Zipheir: Generating reports? Lisp is certainly good for fast prototyping, thanks to dynamic typing and general expressiveness.
2018-11-12T00:24:20Z Zipheir: And the REPL, the ultimate fast prototyping tool.
2018-11-12T00:32:52Z trafaret1: Zipheir: btw is lisp good for protopyting real time control embeded systems?
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2018-11-12T00:35:13Z Zipheir: trafaret1: No idea.
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2018-11-12T00:44:57Z lavaflow: can somebody familar with bayes theorem and/or statistics please review this code for me?  http://pasterack.org/pastes/47300
2018-11-12T00:45:32Z lavaflow: I believe the code is doing what I want it to, but I think "what I want it to" is wrong because I'm probably misunderstanding the application of bayes theorem
2018-11-12T00:46:30Z lavaflow: specifically I think that 10 line 'bayes' function is probably wrong
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2018-11-12T01:39:51Z on_ion: is scheme often tagged primitive types ?
2018-11-12T01:41:50Z jcowan: pjb: I wish the Zeta-C compiler were still useful, but nobody runs Zetalisp any more
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2018-11-12T12:09:50Z silas: Hi all.
2018-11-12T12:09:52Z silas: Anybody using lambdanative.org?
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2018-11-12T13:01:12Z lloda: in the old basics, you could list the program, write on top, and enter the modified version. I miss that in the Scheme repls I've used. readline only gives you what you've typed.
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2018-11-12T13:08:01Z LeoNerd: BASIC programs have line numbers; Scheme programs do not. So already that makes it a little harder to address "that line there"
2018-11-12T13:13:43Z ecraven: lloda: just use emacs or the racket editor ;)
2018-11-12T13:13:53Z ecraven: I use slime, geiser works as well
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2018-11-12T19:14:23Z amerigo: hey, anyone tried machine learning with scheme?
2018-11-12T19:16:56Z wasamasa: sure, there are such people
2018-11-12T19:17:16Z wasamasa: I remember one in here complaining about r7rs not being convenient enough for exporting record accessors
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2018-11-12T19:22:37Z amerigo: manipulating vectors/matrices is also not very comfortable in scheme
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2018-11-12T19:34:59Z ecraven: amerigo: how so?
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2018-11-12T19:39:29Z Zipheir: Yeah, I don't understand that either. Vectors and matrices work just fine in Scheme.
2018-11-12T19:39:45Z amerigo: you need lots of additional functions for iterating over matrices
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2018-11-12T19:44:45Z safinaskar: is there some non-buggy online interpreter with full support for 7th "small" standard?
2018-11-12T19:44:50Z safinaskar: repl.it is buggy
2018-11-12T19:45:47Z Zipheir: I seem to remember there being a Chibi web repl somewhere...
2018-11-12T19:46:29Z safinaskar: i try https://scheme.cs61a.org/ . how to run "define-syntax" in it? it gives error
2018-11-12T19:46:37Z safinaskar: maybe i should import something?
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2018-11-12T19:47:53Z Zipheir: CS 61A doesn't seem to have macros.
2018-11-12T19:48:30Z Zipheir: Oh wait, it does. define-macro only though, boo https://cs61a.org/articles/scheme-spec.html
2018-11-12T19:50:11Z Zipheir: The author says it's sort of like R5RS, but it looks like a small subset. Expect lots of weirdness, I'd say.
2018-11-12T19:53:10Z safinaskar: so, is there some scheme interpreter online which implements define-syntax/syntax-rules from 7th revision of standard?
2018-11-12T19:56:32Z Zipheir: There's https://www.biwascheme.org/, but IIRC that's the implementation that repl.it uses.
2018-11-12T19:56:57Z Zipheir: But Biwa also punts on hygienic macros :p
2018-11-12T19:57:09Z Zipheir: So it seems the answer to your question is 'no'.
2018-11-12T19:58:37Z safinaskar: biwa is crap
2018-11-12T19:58:51Z safinaskar: it doesn't report error if you pass wrong number of argument
2018-11-12T19:58:56Z safinaskar: *of arguments
2018-11-12T19:59:01Z safinaskar: and the bug stays from 2012
2018-11-12T19:59:28Z safinaskar: and repl.it uses biwa
2018-11-12T19:59:57Z Zipheir: Wow, that sucks.
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2018-11-12T20:04:28Z Zipheir: Biwa catches (cons 'a 'b '()), but (define (kons x xs) (cons x xs)) (kons 'a 'b '()) ; => (a . b)
2018-11-12T20:04:32Z Zipheir: That is pretty sloppy.
2018-11-12T20:04:50Z safinaskar: Zipheir: also, using nested quasiquote is not supported
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2018-11-12T20:15:11Z safinaskar: okey, what linux implementations support r7?
2018-11-12T20:15:29Z safinaskar: does gnu/mit support it?
2018-11-12T20:16:46Z Zipheir: safinaskar: Maybe a better question is what parts of R7 do you need?
2018-11-12T20:17:19Z Zipheir: Also GNU/MIT supports most of R7, yes.
2018-11-12T20:17:21Z safinaskar: Zipheir: well, i am trying to learn r7, so ideally i need all r7
2018-11-12T20:17:32Z safinaskar: Zipheir: of course, i mean small r7
2018-11-12T20:17:48Z safinaskar: gnu/mit just said to me that "raise" is undefined
2018-11-12T20:17:54Z safinaskar: or i need to import something?
2018-11-12T20:18:45Z Zipheir: I don't know GNU/MIT well, so ???
2018-11-12T20:19:03Z safinaskar: Zipheir: okey, what is your OS? what implementation you use?
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2018-11-12T20:19:15Z Zipheir: CHICKEN and Guile also have some R7 support, CHICKEN moreso.
2018-11-12T20:19:19Z Zipheir: Linux, CHICKEN.
2018-11-12T20:20:24Z Zipheir: https://wiki.call-cc.org/eggref/4/r7rs (chicken's r7rs lib)
2018-11-12T20:22:23Z rain1: sagitarius is another which has good r7rs
2018-11-12T20:25:57Z wasamasa: safinaskar: make your own online repl
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2018-11-12T20:30:11Z safinaskar: please, look at my scheme interpreter written in scheme: https://repl.it/repls/AlarmingCyberProperty
2018-11-12T20:30:22Z safinaskar: it supports lambda, set! and define
2018-11-12T20:30:26Z safinaskar: and little else
2018-11-12T20:30:40Z safinaskar: it supports little imperative subset of scheme
2018-11-12T20:30:56Z safinaskar: and (i think) will pass Knuth man-boy test, but i didn't check yet
2018-11-12T20:31:15Z safinaskar: also, it supports "+", but not "-", but i can easily add "-"
2018-11-12T20:31:21Z safinaskar: work in progress :)
2018-11-12T20:32:56Z wasamasa: I don't get it, why would you work in an online repl?
2018-11-12T20:34:27Z rain1: very good
2018-11-12T20:34:50Z rain1: yyou should put all the )))) together, not alone on a line
2018-11-12T20:35:03Z wasamasa: yeah, only then it will be "true scheme"
2018-11-12T20:35:23Z qu1j0t3: also it will run twice as fast
2018-11-12T20:35:42Z wasamasa: and it won't burn our eyes
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2018-11-12T20:38:47Z safinaskar: wasamasa: "I don't get it, why would you work in an online repl?" - because i didn't want to install anything to my computer
2018-11-12T20:38:55Z wasamasa: why?
2018-11-12T20:39:28Z safinaskar: wasamasa: simply don't want ;)
2018-11-12T20:39:33Z wasamasa: I mean, you're clearly not using a machine incapable of storing an interpreter if you can work with that website
2018-11-12T20:39:38Z amerigo: you can use docker
2018-11-12T20:39:49Z amerigo: or a virtual machine
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2018-11-12T20:40:29Z safinaskar: Zipheir: i installed chicken. "display" doesn't work. i mean i use "display" in a file, then i run that file using chicken and i see nothing. maybe i should import something?
2018-11-12T20:40:50Z wasamasa: wait, you just said you don't want to install anything
2018-11-12T20:41:10Z wasamasa: anyway, support for that scheme is right over on #chicken
2018-11-12T20:41:27Z safinaskar: wasamasa: yes, i didn't want. but then i understand that repl.it sucks, and so i installed chicken (and gnu/mit scheme)
2018-11-12T20:42:05Z wasamasa: sounds like you'll be a fun support case
2018-11-12T20:42:16Z wasamasa: "I'm using this scheme against my will!"
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2018-11-12T20:57:34Z amerigo: do you know of any map-matrix implementation that would be in the form of (map-matrix function matrix1 matrix2 matrix3...)
2018-11-12T20:57:36Z amerigo: ?
2018-11-12T20:57:51Z wasamasa: the only lisp I know of that gets this right is lush
2018-11-12T20:58:06Z wasamasa: unfortunately lush is in bad shape and won't work on 64bit systems
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2018-11-12T21:00:03Z amerigo: stuck on https://pastebin.com/4PbDF4XV
2018-11-12T21:01:14Z amerigo: no idea how to extend it to many matrices, but it would be a useful abstraction for dot-products, sums etc
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2018-11-12T21:07:55Z amerigo: looks like lush is still maintained
2018-11-12T21:08:37Z wasamasa: why do you say so?
2018-11-12T21:08:49Z wasamasa: have you made it run on a 64bit system?
2018-11-12T21:09:49Z amerigo: commits here https://sourceforge.net/projects/lush/
2018-11-12T21:10:38Z wasamasa: another funny thing is that they made lush2, but it's outdated
2018-11-12T21:16:25Z wasamasa: anyway, I'll try building it
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2018-11-12T21:23:03Z amerigo: good luck
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2018-11-12T21:24:04Z wasamasa: yeah, no, 64bit support is still broken
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2018-11-12T21:28:14Z wasamasa: you'll notice once you try loading up something with C support code
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2018-11-12T21:50:13Z amerigo: ok
2018-11-12T21:50:14Z amerigo: https://pastebin.com/9mkurJvV
2018-11-12T21:50:18Z amerigo: this is my take at matrix-map
2018-11-12T21:56:11Z amerigo: sort of inefficient
2018-11-12T21:56:18Z amerigo: but can't think of any other way
2018-11-12T21:56:21Z amerigo: at the moment
2018-11-12T22:04:41Z amerigo: (define (new-dif . matrices)
2018-11-12T22:04:41Z amerigo:   (apply matrix-map - matrices))
2018-11-12T22:05:12Z amerigo: that way you can abstract other matrix operations
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2018-11-12T22:16:19Z jcowan: The semi-official list of R7RS implementations is at https://bitbucket.org/cowan/r7rs-wg1-infra/src/default/ImplementationSupport.md
2018-11-12T22:16:39Z jcowan: However, I have not been able to build Sagittarius in a long time, and neither has the CI.
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2018-11-12T22:21:40Z rain1: https://bitbucket.org/ktakashi/sagittarius-scheme/downloads/ I just built release 0.9.4 it worked
2018-11-12T22:21:55Z rain1: does it work for you?
2018-11-12T22:28:38Z jcowan: I'll try it.  I think I only tried building from the head.
2018-11-12T22:31:48Z Ober: it has some interesting libs in its base
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2018-11-12T22:32:50Z jcowan: Chibi in the browser is at https://chibi-scheme.appspot.com/
2018-11-12T22:33:28Z jcowan: building Sag on Mojave
2018-11-12T22:35:17Z amerigo: how is performance of those schemes compared to e.g. chez
2018-11-12T22:35:53Z Ober: which time are you measuring? Developer time rewriting libs for chez?
2018-11-12T22:36:59Z amerigo: good point
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2018-11-12T22:37:58Z jcowan: For benchmark data (not just on R7RS) see https://ecraven.github.io/r7rs-benchmarks/
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2018-11-12T22:42:12Z amerigo: was it hard to get stalin compiler running?
2018-11-12T22:42:26Z rain1: if only there was some kind of document that all schemes followod so you could run most libraries in any scheme
2018-11-12T22:45:14Z amerigo: racket is doing well in this regard
2018-11-12T22:46:00Z Zipheir: rain1: Are you slowly turning into wasamasa?
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2018-11-12T22:58:31Z jcowan: Getting Stalin to run isn't *hard*, it just takes forever to build it from C, never mind to build it from itself (which cannot be done until you have a Stalin).  YMMV, of course.
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2018-11-12T22:59:30Z Zipheir: At least the comments in the source provide useful advice: pray.
2018-11-12T22:59:48Z Zipheir: (wrt building the compiler, that is)
2018-11-12T23:00:06Z aeth: It's ironic if Stalin actually is telling you to pray.
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2018-11-12T23:12:56Z jcowan: It's called that because it optimizes your program.  Brutally.
2018-11-12T23:13:18Z jcowan: But yes, each source file begins and ends with a prayer of sorts.  And that's the *only* comments there are.
2018-11-12T23:13:29Z Ober: yeah... not funny for those of us who lost family members in that purge
2018-11-12T23:16:20Z jcowan: Zipheir: did you get a chance to look at my ContextsCowan page?
2018-11-12T23:16:47Z Zipheir: jcowan: Indeed, unless it's changed since yesterday.
2018-11-12T23:17:06Z jcowan: no, it hasn't
2018-11-12T23:17:14Z jcowan: any suggestions, besides "now do it"?
2018-11-12T23:17:49Z Zipheir: jcowan: No, it looks great so far.
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2018-11-12T23:57:00Z Riastradh: The naming is part of an elaborate joke.  See, e.g., <http://upplysingaoflun.ecn.purdue.edu/~qobi/cccp/>.
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2018-11-13T00:04:37Z qu1j0t3: elaborate and tasteless joke?
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2018-11-13T00:29:41Z jcowan: The last person to believe in refined humor was probably Adolf Eichmann
2018-11-13T00:30:02Z jcowan: he turned down an opportunity to join such a humor society in order to join the NDSAP instead.
2018-11-13T00:30:11Z jcowan: (they were officially incompatible)
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2018-11-13T00:34:58Z qu1j0t3: not sure we're talking about merely "unrefined humour," but ok
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2018-11-13T02:01:49Z Zipheir: If there were ever a fork of Stalin (hah!) it should be called Khrushchev and its slogan should be "Krushchev buries all other Scheme compilers."
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2018-11-13T02:35:36Z jcowan chuckles
2018-11-13T02:36:03Z jcowan: Hard to do.  Stalin is pretty much a dead end, combining the lack of documentation with the lack of any kind of community, not so much as a mailing list.
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2018-11-13T02:47:40Z qu1j0t3: put it in a mausoleum
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2018-11-13T13:49:35Z lockywolf: I guess I should be proud. I emailed Neil van Dyke, asking about his scheme-announce mailing list, and he released a new version of quack.
2018-11-13T13:50:04Z lockywolf: ;; HISTORY:
2018-11-13T13:50:04Z lockywolf: ;;
2018-11-13T13:50:04Z lockywolf: ;;     Version 0.49 (2018-10-28):
2018-11-13T13:50:04Z lockywolf: ;;         * Removed reference to `scheme-announce' email list.
2018-11-13T13:50:04Z lockywolf: ;;
2018-11-13T13:50:05Z lockywolf: ;;     Version 0.48 (2016-04-03):
2018-11-13T13:50:09Z lockywolf: ;;         * Made fontify `#true` and `#false`.
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2018-11-13T17:10:42Z foof: is library.readscheme.org gone?
2018-11-13T17:11:19Z wasamasa: yes
2018-11-13T17:11:34Z foof: ;_;
2018-11-13T17:12:48Z rain1: yeah :/
2018-11-13T17:13:14Z rain1: https://web.archive.org/web/20071223082205/http://library.readscheme.org:80/
2018-11-13T17:13:24Z wasamasa: readscheme.org has been auctioned off after the domain expired
2018-11-13T17:13:37Z rain1: maybe I should copy all this stuff to my wiki
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2018-11-13T17:21:21Z Zipheir: I'll archive a copy as well, if possible.
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2018-11-13T17:36:51Z ManDay: Has anyone here seen my questions and asking for help within the last three hours or so?
2018-11-13T17:37:44Z ManDay: (e.g. just minutes ago, talking about Guile)
2018-11-13T17:37:54Z ManDay: Via my ManDay[m] account, that is.
2018-11-13T17:39:08Z weinholt: ManDay, nope
2018-11-13T17:39:54Z rain1: did not see your question either
2018-11-13T17:42:39Z ManDay quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2018-11-13T17:42:48Z wasamasa: matrix sucks
2018-11-13T17:46:20Z Zipheir: ManDay: You seem to be stuck in matrix, would you like a pill?
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2018-11-13T17:55:11Z oni-on-ion: heh wasamasa  i just unloaded it (lua plugin) from weechat a second ago due to continuous network error. started it up last night because my one buddy uses it sometimes --
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2018-11-13T18:03:53Z ManDay: Zipheir: Okay, yeah... I take the pill.
2018-11-13T18:04:11Z ManDay: All this time I was thinking why are you guys being such jerks, completely ignoring me.
2018-11-13T18:04:32Z ManDay: Good to know you're not ignoring me.
2018-11-13T18:04:34Z ManDay: :-P
2018-11-13T18:05:39Z pjb: ManDay: https://cliki.net/IRC
2018-11-13T18:06:56Z ManDay: So my question was basically two: 1) Guile seems to drop a whole bunch of frames in its backtraces. Essentially, all locally bound lambda are never mentioned, which makes errors practically untraceable in programs which rely a lot on it. Has anyone found a way to tackle this or knows a scheme which provides better backtraces in these situations? Second question, very weird: I've got a purely functional
2018-11-13T18:06:58Z ManDay: program and its behaviour (i.e. whether an error occurs or not) seems to depend on whether I wrap a (pk ...) or a (begin (display ...) ...) around stuff. Should that logically be possible at all?
2018-11-13T18:08:00Z pjb: ManDay: for the second question,  if there's some lazy evaluation going on, then indeed, if you don't use the value, there's no need to compute it.
2018-11-13T18:08:39Z pjb: ManDay: you don't go around and compute f(x) for all the value of x in C, do you?
2018-11-13T18:09:06Z ecraven: does anyone have a full mirror of readscheme?
2018-11-13T18:10:07Z pjb: Try Archive.org ?  Probably incomplete.  Otherwise, there's https://schemers.org
2018-11-13T18:10:46Z pjb: ManDay: I tend to use mit-scheme or bigloo, but I don't know how they compare for debugging, since I never did much debugging in scheme. Sorry.
2018-11-13T18:11:49Z ecraven: pjb: bibliography on schemers.org links to readscheme :-/
2018-11-13T18:13:12Z pjb: https://web.archive.org/web/*/http://readscheme.org
2018-11-13T18:13:30Z ecraven: hm.. actually, hosting the full papers instead of only links would be nicer
2018-11-13T18:13:55Z pjb: In March it was still alive: https://web.archive.org/web/20180307132928/http://readscheme.org
2018-11-13T18:14:31Z ecraven: yea, just wgot it, would be nice to convert to some sort of sexp-bibtex
2018-11-13T18:14:58Z pjb: Perhaps only the DNS is over. If you can retrive the IP, you might be able to clone it.
2018-11-13T18:15:23Z pjb: Jim Bender was the maintainer.
2018-11-13T18:16:41Z ecraven: is there a lispy variant of bibtex?
2018-11-13T18:17:07Z gwatt: ecraven: slatex?
2018-11-13T18:17:28Z ecraven: actually, bibtex syntax seems plain enough to just use alists for the data
2018-11-13T18:17:40Z ManDay: pjb: If there is lazy evaluation, how would adding a pk/display prevent the error from happening?
2018-11-13T18:17:49Z ManDay: pjb: What do you mean by the second thing you said?
2018-11-13T18:18:22Z Riastradh: ManDay: It would help if you shared exactly the code you're having trouble with; otherwise it's hard to hypothesize what might be wrong with it.
2018-11-13T18:18:40Z DKordic: ecraven: Seen http://infocenter.arm.com/help/index.jsp?topic=/com.arm.doc.ddi0439b/CHDDIGAC.html ?
2018-11-13T18:19:23Z ManDay: Riastradh: I will do that, I'm at home now but I'll share it when I'm back at work tomorrow. It's fairly short and only very simple r6rs
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2018-11-13T18:22:40Z weinholt: pjb, ecraven: it's still up,  212.110.186.28 readscheme.org library.readscheme.org
2018-11-13T18:23:04Z rain1: nice
2018-11-13T18:25:50Z ecraven: weinholt: thanks!
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2018-11-13T18:26:03Z Zipheir: woo
2018-11-13T18:27:19Z ecraven: repository.readscheme.org is the same ip, that has a lot of the actual papers
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2018-11-13T18:29:38Z pjb: perhaps indeed, if you add this line to your /etc/hosts you will be able to do a wget -m ?
2018-11-13T18:29:51Z ecraven: just doing that ;D
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2018-11-13T18:48:41Z wasamasa: gogo, ecraven
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2018-11-13T19:04:36Z rain1: so what's the plan for readscheme and stuff, we should organize togeter
2018-11-13T19:05:17Z wasamasa: well, find someone with a cool domain, someone with good hosting and marry them
2018-11-13T19:05:33Z wasamasa: I have some hosting space
2018-11-13T19:05:51Z pjb: It's only 1.5G; you can include it on any website…
2018-11-13T19:06:02Z pjb: Why not schemers.org?
2018-11-13T19:06:10Z wasamasa: oh well, contact me if it's hundreds of gigs
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2018-11-13T19:08:14Z rain1: good idea. does anyone here have edit access for schemers.org
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2018-11-13T19:22:44Z rain1: could someone upload a zip of readscheme.org please
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2018-11-13T19:25:44Z gwatt: I wonder if cicso could be convinced to open up scheme.com
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2018-11-13T19:26:48Z Riastradh: gwatt: Talk to Kent Dybvig.
2018-11-13T19:27:09Z gwatt: Riastradh: Ah, he didn't sell scheme.com to cisco as part of the ChezScheme purchase?
2018-11-13T19:27:55Z rain1: What if the R stands for Riastradh Kent Dybvig
2018-11-13T19:28:04Z Riastradh: Heh.
2018-11-13T19:28:29Z Riastradh: gwatt: I don't know who owns it but he probably knows the right contacts even if he doesn't.
2018-11-13T19:31:00Z gwatt: rain1: the going joke as IU was that it stood for "Ronak". Someone edited his wikipedia page to display that. The fallacious middle name was removed, but a little while later it showed up in an academic paper.
2018-11-13T19:32:06Z rain1: hah
2018-11-13T19:32:18Z rain1: so i can't accesss repository.readscheme.org even if i add that ip address to hosts
2018-11-13T19:32:51Z rain1: I kind of think readscheme.org would be cool if it became a wiki that anyone can add to
2018-11-13T19:33:26Z rain1: I have a wiki page for papers on continuations https://github.com/rain-1/continuations-study-group/wiki/Reading-List it  could be similar to that
2018-11-13T19:34:45Z rain1: there is also partial-eval.org
2018-11-13T19:35:19Z weinholt: rain1, i can access it that way, perhaps you have the non-hosts ip cached somewhere?
2018-11-13T19:39:56Z pjb: Compressing…
2018-11-13T19:47:15Z pjb: rain1: I can't upload, but you can download the mirror I just made from ftp://ftp.informatimago.com/pub/scheme-mirrors/rs.tar.xz
2018-11-13T19:47:28Z pjb: 1.2GB, xz compression saved 300 MB :-/
2018-11-13T19:56:02Z rain1: nice
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2018-11-13T20:08:57Z jcowan: rain1: could create a Wikia
2018-11-13T20:11:03Z jcowan: scheme.com does not appear to have anything to do with Cisco; the DNS is from pairdomains.com, not cisco.com
2018-11-13T20:12:11Z wasamasa: ugh, wikia
2018-11-13T20:12:16Z wasamasa: no ads please
2018-11-13T20:12:26Z qu1j0t3: we're british
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2018-11-13T20:16:02Z jcowan shrugs
2018-11-13T20:16:08Z jcowan: easy to block, at least the last time I looked
2018-11-13T20:16:50Z Zipheir: Ahem, it's Fandom these days. Also, ugh.
2018-11-13T20:17:16Z jcowan: Keeping things on random people's servers is part of the Curse of Lisp; the Scheme community lost a whole chunk of its history when the only server that kept parts of our mailing list (and blocked the IA with robots.txt) went down forever.
2018-11-13T20:17:59Z Zipheir: Someone should register curse-of-lisp.org and have it 404, permanently.
2018-11-13T20:18:43Z Zipheir: (As a warning)
2018-11-13T20:19:24Z jcowan laughs
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2018-11-13T20:31:18Z rain1: yeah good idea. i find miraheze is a little nicer than wikia
2018-11-13T20:31:42Z rain1: git is also an option since it makes it easy to copy/mirror
2018-11-13T20:32:12Z Zipheir: +1 for the repo idea.
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2018-11-13T20:54:39Z ecraven: rain1: put the ip in hosts, then use http, should work fine
2018-11-13T21:01:12Z rain1: ty
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2018-11-14T07:29:56Z ManDay: Here is the code that I mentioned yesterday: https://ideone.com/SkkO1M - in either guile2.0 or guile2.2 it produced an error, unless line 39 is commented-in. Which seems to be logically impossible.
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2018-11-14T07:32:17Z ManDay: "Logically impossible" as in "not possible given there are no side-effects whatsoever" - the actual content of the program shouldn't matter.
2018-11-14T07:33:58Z ManDay: A related problem I'm having with this code: An incomprehensible backtrace from guile, which seems to drop all frames related to local lambdas.
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2018-11-14T14:35:47Z ManDay: I seem to notoriously have problems with this channel.
2018-11-14T14:36:00Z ManDay: Don't know for how long I have been disconnected - no indication.
2018-11-14T14:36:17Z ManDay: Has anyone dropped by to look at my Guile backtrace/heisenbug problem?
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2018-11-14T14:39:52Z qu1j0t3: ManDay: wb ... maybe you need to change your connection method.
2018-11-14T14:41:25Z ManDay: qu1j0t3: I wen't from not-working-at-all (Matrix w/o auth) to Freenode-Webirc, one little improvement at a time ;)
2018-11-14T14:41:42Z ManDay: If things keep failing me, I'll go weechat
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2018-11-14T14:46:08Z qu1j0t3: :)
2018-11-14T14:46:12Z qu1j0t3: yeah i'm on weechat/vps
2018-11-14T14:47:25Z jcowan: I used Hexchat on Windows for years, but now that I'm stuck on this Mac, I've switched to irccloud (free version) and it's decent.
2018-11-14T14:47:52Z jcowan: You can only have two networks, but I almost never use anything but Freenode anyway.
2018-11-14T14:48:24Z jcowan: and it keeps you connected when your system is asleep, theoretically for only two hours in the free version, but in practice for much longer.
2018-11-14T14:48:40Z qu1j0t3: there you go ManDay
2018-11-14T14:50:08Z ManDay: jcowan: I thought freenode webirc were the only web-client that could connect to freenode
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2018-11-14T14:50:25Z ManDay: i home i use weechat, it's just on my box at work i'm on webchat
2018-11-14T14:51:10Z jcowan: You're talking to irccloud's back end, which keeps your IRC connection open
2018-11-14T14:51:21Z jcowan: freenode doesn't know I'm coming from a web client
2018-11-14T14:51:25Z qu1j0t3: ^^
2018-11-14T14:51:39Z ManDay: jcowan: so it's just a bouncer?
2018-11-14T14:52:09Z jcowan: Well, it is a bouncer; I don't know what you expect from bouncers, so I can't say if it's *just* a bouncer.  Try it out, see if you like it.
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2018-11-14T14:53:40Z ManDay: I don't like their website. They have that messedup scroll bar
2018-11-14T14:54:20Z ManDay: It's like a facade of a scrollbar, you can't grab it.
2018-11-14T14:54:32Z ManDay: hipster web designers
2018-11-14T14:54:39Z ManDay: anyway, no idea about guile?
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2018-11-14T14:57:15Z ManDay: To repeat for all ye without a bouncer: https://ideone.com/SkkO1M <- Is pure but will produce errors in Guile when L39 is out, else not. This should be impossible. Also, the backtraces are impossible to read.
2018-11-14T14:57:57Z ManDay: (fwiw I rewrote the code since this morning and fixed stuff up, but this weirdness is really suspicious anyhow)
2018-11-14T14:58:26Z ManDay: Also, after an initial restructure without any content change, the errors also disappeared
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2018-11-14T16:15:39Z ManDay: I just wish there was a scheme more like Haskell and a Haskell more like scheme... A scheme with types & pattern matching, currying & partial application... A haskell with a concise minmal syntax, S-expressions and little to no sugar...
2018-11-14T16:15:53Z ManDay: The perfect language!
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2018-11-14T16:21:30Z rain1: have a go  making it :)
2018-11-14T16:21:44Z rain1: the biggest problem I find with that though is the type language is so ugly in s-exyp
2018-11-14T16:21:50Z rain1: a -> b is really nice
2018-11-14T16:24:59Z pjb: ManDay: there's Liskell.
2018-11-14T16:26:50Z DKordic: ManDay: Enter.
2018-11-14T16:27:20Z DKordic: rain1: I prefer "(-> a b)".
2018-11-14T16:28:05Z rain1: really!
2018-11-14T16:28:25Z pjb: Yep.
2018-11-14T16:30:23Z ManDay: pjb: I'll look at it. It's less the style of S-expressions that appeals to me but the fact how minimal the program becomes. 90% are pure logic/content. with haskell, there is just so much scaffolding around the logical core
2018-11-14T16:31:02Z jcowan: Liskell vs. Hackett deathmatch!
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2018-11-14T17:08:11Z oni-on-ion: no one suggested Typed Racket?? =)
2018-11-14T17:08:18Z oni-on-ion: or Mercury
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2018-11-14T19:24:59Z jcowan: Or Miranda(R)
2018-11-14T19:26:11Z jcowan: In early Haskell papers whenever Miranda was mentioned there was a footnote:  "Miranda is a trademark of Research Software Limited".
2018-11-14T19:28:03Z jcowan: Later on, sometimes the footnote said "Miranda here is not a trademark of Research Software Limited, but refers to the researcher So-and-so Miranda"
2018-11-14T19:28:11Z jcowan: or sometimes "Haskell is not a trademark."
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2018-11-14T19:32:03Z Zipheir: "Haskell is not a trademark and will thus write the obituary of Miranda(R)."
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2018-11-14T19:48:33Z jcowan: It has.
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2018-11-14T21:45:25Z Ober: What is the right way to get header to be defined at line 19? had thought it would be available through the call chain https://gist.github.com/e539555fa58707e5915eb641df88dcfc
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2018-11-14T21:46:30Z jcowan: No, variables bound by let or lambda or define are visible only in the lexical scope (until the ")" that ends the let or whatever)
2018-11-14T21:46:48Z jcowan: to get that result you must pass the value to format-me, or use parameters (an advanced feature with its own problems)
2018-11-14T21:56:16Z Riastradh: Ober: This is the nature of lexical scope, in contrast to dynamic scope, which very few programming languages use by default because it tends to make programs very hard to understand.
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2018-11-14T21:59:49Z pjb: Ober: the right way to get header to be defined at line 19 would be to pass it as parameter to the format-me and format-org functions.
2018-11-14T22:00:01Z Ober: gotcha. thanks.
2018-11-14T22:00:07Z pjb: Ober: the alternative, is to use a global variable (untasty).
2018-11-14T22:00:11Z Ober: had thought lexical-let in elisp allowed this sort of behavior
2018-11-14T22:00:33Z pjb: Ober: and another way is to use dynamic binding. IIRC, there's a SRFI that implements dynamic binding.
2018-11-14T22:00:54Z pjb: elisp has dynamic binding by default. lexical-let wouldn't allow it.
2018-11-14T22:01:15Z Ober: ahh, thank you for the clarification
2018-11-14T22:01:33Z Ober: not sure where I got that impression
2018-11-14T22:02:12Z wasamasa: don't use lexical-let
2018-11-14T22:02:20Z wasamasa: it's a terrible hack
2018-11-14T22:03:30Z Ober: yeah, quite a fundamental misunderstanding of lexical binding on my part. not sure where that expectation came from
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2018-11-14T22:19:35Z pjb: Ober: indeed, in emacs>=25, there's real lexical binding. You need to (setq lexical-binding t) and then (let ((x 24)) (lambda (y) (+ (incf x) y))) --> (closure ((x . 24) t) (y) (+ (setq x (1+ x)) y))
2018-11-14T22:20:10Z pjb: lexical binding gives you closures.  Without it, no lexical scope, no closures.
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2018-11-14T23:48:49Z jcowan: there is a new SRFI for dynamic closures too
2018-11-14T23:48:57Z jcowan: but they are for pretty special cases
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2018-11-14T23:50:11Z jcowan: https://srfi.schemers.org/srfi-154/srfi-154.html
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2018-11-14T23:54:15Z Zipheir: Terminology question: dynamic scope == dynamic binding?
2018-11-14T23:55:13Z Zipheir: It seems like they're frequently used interchangeably, but perhaps that's wrong.
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2018-11-15T00:59:24Z jcowan: Zipheir: Well, dynamic binding is a particular case of dynamic scope.  Dynamic-wind is also a case of dynamic scope.
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2018-11-15T02:16:24Z Zipheir: jcowan: ty
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2018-11-15T02:42:31Z jcowan: Speaking of which, does anyone understand the utility of first-class parameters (dynamically bindable objects) other than their use in threads?  I've been trying to think about why you would want to put one in a data structure, for example, or pass it as an argument to a procedure, and coming up with zilch.
2018-11-15T02:44:18Z Riastradh: lexically scoping them
2018-11-15T02:44:56Z jcowan: To what benefit exactly?
2018-11-15T02:45:17Z jcowan: I am not making snark, I would really like to know
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2018-11-15T02:47:38Z Riastradh: How else do you export them from modules?  What namespace do they live in?
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2018-11-15T03:02:09Z jcowan: You could invoke a procedure that returned one, e.g.
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2018-11-15T03:13:22Z Riastradh: How is that different?
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2018-11-15T10:17:28Z trafaret1: hi htere
2018-11-15T10:17:49Z trafaret1: does anybody use Artanis framework for building web app?
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2018-11-15T13:54:49Z skapata: Saluton!
2018-11-15T13:55:12Z skapata: Ĉi nokte, mi kriis dum la sonĝo kaj vekiĝis. Eble mi vekiĝis miajn najbarojn kune.
2018-11-15T13:55:58Z ManDay: skapata: English?
2018-11-15T13:57:22Z wasamasa: esperanto
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2018-11-15T14:11:20Z ogamita: Yes, esperanto should have been the official language of the European Union, if the European Union was really what it should be about.  But instead, they use the language of the banksters, English, even when no country in the EU has English as official language anymore (or soon).
2018-11-15T14:11:43Z ogamita: We'll have to destroy the EU, and start over good.
2018-11-15T14:12:05Z wasamasa: nobody cares
2018-11-15T14:12:21Z ventonegro: Thanks for the chuckle
2018-11-15T14:13:20Z ManDay: I really think German should be made the EU-wide mandatory language
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2018-11-15T14:13:32Z skapata: Wrong channel, sorry.
2018-11-15T14:13:34Z ventonegro: Das stimmt
2018-11-15T14:13:53Z ManDay: Danke!
2018-11-15T14:14:14Z ogamita: ManDay: Well in THIS EU, yes, why not.
2018-11-15T14:14:49Z ManDay changes the channel topic to "(speak 'German), official language of #scheme (and soon rest of IRC)"
2018-11-15T14:17:53Z ManDay: ogamita: Fwiw, I think the Irish still speak some sort of English. Not the understandable kind, but if you listen carefully, it sounds like it.
2018-11-15T14:18:22Z ventonegro: He's just trolling
2018-11-15T14:19:34Z ogamita: Irish and Ulster Cant are enough for any good Irishman.
2018-11-15T14:21:02Z ManDay: Say what? Ulster cant?
2018-11-15T14:21:11Z ManDay: Google suggests "Ulster coat"
2018-11-15T14:21:38Z ManDay: or did you mean to say "cant be enough" ?
2018-11-15T14:23:32Z ogamita: Sorry, I meant Ulster Scots.
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2018-11-15T14:24:15Z ManDay: did you just refer to the scots as cunts?!
2018-11-15T14:25:08Z ogamita: ManDay: No. I guess I've seen the word in another window.  There's clearly a context protection problem in my wetware…
2018-11-15T14:27:10Z ManDay: fair enough
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2018-11-15T16:05:06Z rain1: hello
2018-11-15T16:05:12Z rain1: I started porting my PEG parser libraryto guile scheme
2018-11-15T16:05:23Z rain1: https://github.com/rain-1/racket-peg/tree/guile
2018-11-15T16:09:19Z jcowan: nice
2018-11-15T16:09:27Z rain1: thank you!
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2018-11-15T19:05:37Z lyf[kde]: The Seasoned Schemer finally arrived!
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2018-11-15T20:23:29Z amz3: I confess I am thinking everyday about moving to chez scheme
2018-11-15T20:25:06Z wasamasa: so chez is beguiling you?
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2018-11-15T20:26:34Z wasamasa: did you know that if you translate chez scheme to german, you get mit-scheme...
2018-11-15T20:27:17Z wasamasa: my puns are no good, better flush them down the big loo
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2018-11-15T20:27:51Z jcowan: pffft
2018-11-15T20:28:01Z jcowan: wasamasa: adds a smile to a grim day for me
2018-11-15T20:28:30Z jcowan: spent much time fighting Scala, time on the loo (not big at all), soon to be followed by an hour on the phone or so
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2018-11-15T20:29:53Z wasamasa: yeah, I'm just procrastinating on a different task
2018-11-15T20:30:08Z qu1j0t3: jcowan: want help with the scala stuff? hmu on another channel
2018-11-15T20:31:10Z jcowan: nah, it's not foundational, it's our test infrastructure.  Some tests are failing for no apparent reason.
2018-11-15T20:31:44Z qu1j0t3: k
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2018-11-15T21:19:49Z quipa: Hello, does someone know of a implementation of pi-calculus based language in scheme / lisp / racket ?
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2018-11-15T22:58:15Z rain1: quipa: I may be mistaken but I think gerbil is
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2018-11-15T23:01:10Z amz3: wasamasa: :)
2018-11-15T23:02:09Z Riastradh: quipa: Here's a Scheme implementation of Concurrent ML, if that's close enough to what you're looking for:  https://mumble.net/~campbell/darcs/scheme-cml/
2018-11-15T23:06:19Z quipa: rainl, Riastradh: cool thanks will check those out
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2018-11-15T23:08:21Z quipa: rainl: is this the one https://github.com/vyzo/gerbil ?
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2018-11-15T23:28:27Z rain1: oh sorry termite not gerbil, my bad
2018-11-15T23:28:43Z rain1: it might not be exactly what you meant but it has concurrency and mailboxes and stuff
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2018-11-15T23:52:54Z Zipheir: Does/Will r7rs have a position on concurrent programming in general?
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2018-11-16T00:44:59Z quipa: rain1: cool thanks
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2018-11-16T01:30:04Z jcowan: Not yet, but I have a position: fork/join and channels, which can be implemented on top of SRFI 18.
2018-11-16T01:30:12Z jcowan: We'll see what happens.
2018-11-16T01:30:20Z jcowan: Zipheir: ^^
2018-11-16T01:30:36Z Zipheir: Ah, interesting.
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2018-11-16T01:33:06Z jcowan: I hate shared-memory architectures
2018-11-16T01:35:34Z Zipheir: No kidding.
2018-11-16T01:40:51Z jcowan: It's one reason why I pushed so many immutable data structures through R7RS-Red
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2018-11-16T04:28:27Z jcowan: I have been thinking about single-floats because I am implementing SRFI 4 portably, and I think that to be useful as a numerical language, Scheme will need either direct support for single-floats through the generic functions, or a single-float-specific library, or both.
2018-11-16T04:33:18Z jcowan: If you store 3.402823e38 (approximately max-single-float) into a bytevector or f32vector and pull it out again, the difference between the original and the result is 6.073709657548248e+30.  That's a very large absolute error.
2018-11-16T04:33:38Z jcowan: Though admittedly the relative error is only 1.5077862131874914e-13.
2018-11-16T04:34:27Z jcowan: (more precisely: if you store the double-float 3.402823e38 as a single-float and read it back as a double-float, that's the error you get)
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2018-11-16T05:08:48Z Riastradh: jcowan: Umm?  What?
2018-11-16T05:09:20Z jcowan: Eh?
2018-11-16T05:09:33Z Riastradh: jcowan: Every binary32 floating-point number is also a binary64 floating-point number.
2018-11-16T05:10:04Z jcowan: Well, let me try it in Chicken.
2018-11-16T05:12:44Z jcowan: Same results, so it is not the software implementation of bytes-to-numbers conversion
2018-11-16T05:13:02Z jcowan: It may however be a matter of binary-decimal conversion
2018-11-16T05:14:08Z jcowan: The double value I chose is 3.402823e+38, whereas the result from the f32vector (a double) is 3.4028230607371e+38.
2018-11-16T05:14:35Z Riastradh: What exactly are you testing?
2018-11-16T05:16:03Z jcowan: (f32vector-ref (f32vector 3.402823e+38) 0)
2018-11-16T05:16:48Z jcowan: a bunch of junk bits are coming out of nowhere
2018-11-16T05:17:16Z oni-on-ion: i was just reading about boxing, but cant find much info except srfi-111
2018-11-16T05:17:32Z Riastradh: OK.  So, first, 3.402823e+38 is not a binary64 number; the nearest one is 340282299999999994960115009090224128000.
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2018-11-16T05:22:34Z Riastradh: Probably better to put it in hexadecimal notation with a power of two: 0x1.fffff966ad924p+127.
2018-11-16T05:23:27Z Riastradh: Similarly, it's not a binary32 number either (if it were, then it would also be a binary64 number).  Its hexadecimal representation is 0x1.fffffap+127; as an integer, that's 340282306073709652508363335590014353408.
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2018-11-16T05:27:56Z Riastradh: If you round 340282299999999994960115009090224128000 to a binary32 number, it turns out that you'll get the same thing as rounding 3.402823e+38 to a binary32 number (which is not always the case -- double-rounding can sometimes round to not-nearest).
2018-11-16T05:28:06Z Riastradh: Which is 0x1.fffffap+127 = 340282306073709652508363335590014353408.
2018-11-16T05:29:00Z Riastradh: So, what you're really seeing is just rounding 3.402823e+38 to a binary32 number (and then showing an additional 7 digits, presumably by default).
2018-11-16T05:31:09Z Riastradh: Note that the largest binary32 number is 0x1.fffffep+127.
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2018-11-16T05:31:40Z Riastradh: Which is 340282346638528859811704183484516925440.
2018-11-16T05:31:45Z oni-on-ion: ap != ep?
2018-11-16T05:32:00Z Riastradh: oni-on-ion: Right.  0xa < 0xe
2018-11-16T05:32:30Z oni-on-ion: oh. wait well what is p?
2018-11-16T05:32:47Z Riastradh: oni-on-ion: Read it as `times 2^'.
2018-11-16T05:32:57Z Riastradh: oni-on-ion: I.e., 1.fffffe * 2^127.
2018-11-16T05:33:07Z oni-on-ion: ahh =)
2018-11-16T05:33:10Z Riastradh: This is hexadecimal.
2018-11-16T05:33:24Z Riastradh: jcowan: Which, by the way, is a notation that I highly recommend you support!
2018-11-16T05:33:30Z Riastradh: Also printing it.
2018-11-16T05:33:33Z Riastradh: number->string oughta dtrt.
2018-11-16T05:38:12Z oni-on-ion: =) been interested in a base-32
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2018-11-16T06:19:32Z Riastradh: jcowan: Also, how did you compute the relative error?  (That's mostly what elicited the `uh, what?' response; a relative error between two floating-point numbers of ~1e-13 due to rounding makes no sense either for binary32, where it should be ~1e-7, or for binary64, where it should be ~1e-16.)
2018-11-16T06:20:36Z Riastradh: (Hm.  Well, no, I guess a relative error of 1e-13 could make sense in this context, never mind.)
2018-11-16T06:21:56Z Riastradh: Someone^TM should write a lex macro so I can write a Scheme number parser that's not a horrible spaghetti of nested recursive procedures.
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2018-11-16T07:11:55Z ManDay: so on one hand, scheme's "too minimal" to get a base != operator, but then, there is things like `zero?` and `finite?` ...
2018-11-16T07:13:01Z Riastradh: We'd have to fight it out between the camp that wants to spell it != and the camp that wants to spell it /=.
2018-11-16T07:14:53Z ventonegro: Probably 95% of Scheme compilers transform (if (not test) exp1 exp2) into (if test exp2 exp1)
2018-11-16T07:15:55Z ManDay: Riastradh: Fuck that other camp!
2018-11-16T07:16:04Z Riastradh: I know, right?  That other camp is always wrong!
2018-11-16T07:16:09Z Riastradh: (Which camp are we in?  I forget.)
2018-11-16T07:16:16Z Zipheir: The right one.
2018-11-16T07:16:24Z Riastradh: Ahhhh, right!  Of course we are.
2018-11-16T07:16:27Z ManDay: Exactly. And it's THEM who are wrong.
2018-11-16T07:16:37Z ManDay: No one in their right mind would spell it like that
2018-11-16T07:17:25Z ventonegro: Also, don't forget the ~= camp
2018-11-16T07:17:45Z ManDay: The approximately equal camp?
2018-11-16T07:17:47Z Zipheir: ! has a well-established meaning in Scheme. No one would accept != in a million years.
2018-11-16T07:18:01Z ManDay: Well, it sure shouldn't be =!
2018-11-16T07:18:24Z ManDay: I think <> is also an option
2018-11-16T07:18:25Z Zipheir: =!, i.e. if they aren't equal, make them equal!
2018-11-16T07:18:33Z ventonegro: ManDay: http://www.lua.org/manual/5.3/manual.html#3.4.4
2018-11-16T07:18:33Z ManDay: Zipheir: Heh
2018-11-16T07:19:27Z ventonegro: And the =/= camp believe themselves to be the winners
2018-11-16T07:20:06Z ManDay: They are already inferior by the number of characters alone
2018-11-16T07:20:38Z ventonegro: As opposed to `call-with-current-continuation`? ;)
2018-11-16T07:22:06Z ManDay: That's just so long to make people refrain from overusing it (those who know call/cc wouldn't do that in the first place, ofc)
2018-11-16T07:22:27Z ManDay: W.r.t. to inequality, I'd refer them to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equals_sign#Not_equal - Wikipedia says =/= is not an option. End of debate.
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2018-11-16T07:22:56Z Riastradh: We could use ≠ too.
2018-11-16T07:23:11Z Zipheir: ManDay: You're really asking for a number of procedures--not-eq?, not-eqv?, etc., because it would be really weird to have = be the only equality proc with a standard negative.
2018-11-16T07:23:41Z ManDay: Zipheir: You do have a point there...
2018-11-16T07:23:41Z ventonegro: ManDay: Tell that to the =/= camp
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2018-11-16T07:26:00Z ventonegro: Riastradh: Well, if Agda can use Unicode, why not :)
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2018-11-16T07:27:06Z ManDay: Racket uses Unicode...
2018-11-16T07:29:38Z Zipheir: Seuss' The Butter Battle Book should be required reading for hackers...
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2018-11-16T08:18:03Z ManDay: Might also make a useful read for the less technically inclined...
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2018-11-16T09:19:47Z Riastradh: There we go, MIT Scheme now has #x1.1f2e42p-172 notation.
2018-11-16T09:23:29Z Riastradh: (number->string 3.4028234663852886e38 #x10)
2018-11-16T09:23:30Z Riastradh: ;Value: "#x1.fffffep+127"
2018-11-16T09:23:39Z Riastradh: (number->string 3.402823e38 #x10)
2018-11-16T09:23:40Z Riastradh: ;Value: "#x1.fffff966ad924p+127"
2018-11-16T09:23:53Z Riastradh: jcowan: ^
2018-11-16T09:27:03Z Riastradh: Specifically, in binary64, 3.4028234663852886e38 is rounded to a number that is also a binary32 number, but 3.402823e38 is rounded to a number that is not a binary32 number.
2018-11-16T09:27:28Z Riastradh: The effect of (f32vector-ref (f32vector x) 0) is to round x (which is presumably a binary64 number) to a binary32 number.
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2018-11-16T09:45:09Z ManDay: Riastradh: What is this?
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2018-11-16T16:36:06Z rain1: hey
2018-11-16T16:36:14Z rain1: i have been working on my guile port of the peg library
2018-11-16T16:36:33Z rain1: https://github.com/rain-1/racket-peg/blob/guile/guile-heredoc.scm  ive made a heredoc reader for guile
2018-11-16T16:36:48Z rain1: https://github.com/rain-1/racket-peg/issues/30#issuecomment-439434718  and these are some of the tests workng and not working
2018-11-16T16:37:00Z rain1: don't understand why yet but it's good progress
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2018-11-16T16:48:38Z Riastradh: jcowan: Remind me -- does R7RS have hexadecimal point notation with exponent base 2?  #x1.234p-42
2018-11-16T16:48:41Z Riastradh: jcowan: If not, it should.
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2018-11-16T17:04:18Z Riastradh: (parameterize ((param:printer-radix #x10))
2018-11-16T17:04:18Z Riastradh:   (write-to-string (list 1.5e10 0.1)))
2018-11-16T17:04:18Z Riastradh: ;Value: "(#x1.bf08ebp+33 #x1.999999999999ap-4)"
2018-11-16T17:05:03Z Riastradh: Much better!
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2018-11-16T18:01:37Z jcowan: Riastradh: No.  I agree with you and Henry Baker that this is a Good Thing, but I don't know of any Scheme that has it.  Unfortunately I no longer have my comprehensive Scheme suite (should have set it up on Amazon or something)
2018-11-16T18:02:05Z jcowan: Thanks for the comprehensive explanation
2018-11-16T18:02:15Z Riastradh: jcowan: MIT Scheme has it!
2018-11-16T18:02:38Z jcowan: Excellent!
2018-11-16T18:03:53Z jcowan: btw, the real problem with inequality is not the notation, it's the semantics with >2 arguments.  CL's definition requires that all arguments be distinct, which is n log n unless you use a hash table.
2018-11-16T18:04:03Z Riastradh: Heh.
2018-11-16T18:09:00Z jcowan: I suppose an O(n) algorithm would be to ask if at least one is distinct from the rest, the straight negation of =.  The eq* predicates don't have this problem.
2018-11-16T18:09:11Z Riastradh: You could restrict it to be binary.
2018-11-16T18:09:19Z jcowan: Also a possibility
2018-11-16T18:28:09Z Riastradh: jcowan: I wouldn't be surprised if no other Scheme implements hexadecimal floating-point notation.  But!  It is well-established throughout the rest of the world (e.g., it works in C; use printf("%a") to print it), and it is extremely helpful for seeing fine distinctions in floating-point values that decimal approximation obscures.
2018-11-16T18:28:15Z Riastradh: So I highly recommend pushing everyone to adopt it.
2018-11-16T18:29:29Z oni-on-ion: i was starting to use it back in mid-late 90s in C/objc , will continue
2018-11-16T18:29:49Z oni-on-ion aims for all-hex
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2018-11-16T18:52:30Z jcowan: SRFI 159, which I hope will become part of R7RS-Tangerine, supports hex output of floats but not (AFAICT) in exponential notation.
2018-11-16T18:53:09Z jcowan: Indeed, I don't see how to make it output exponential notation at all.
2018-11-16T18:53:13Z Riastradh: foof: Fix it!
2018-11-16T18:53:43Z oni-on-ion avoids exponential notation
2018-11-16T18:53:57Z Riastradh: Also there's a typo: `mantissa' appears once where it should say `significand'.
2018-11-16T18:56:39Z Riastradh: jcowan: Anyway, it should be supported in the lexical syntax and by string->number and number->string, not just as a fancy formatting library doohickey.
2018-11-16T18:57:28Z jcowan: Not gonna argue, except that the road to things like that is long and hard, especially the lexical syntax (you can replace string->number and number->string if you want).  I will add it to the LexicalDocket, which will be voted on last.
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2018-11-16T19:15:04Z rain1: hi
2018-11-16T19:15:32Z rain1: what do you all think about "checked exceptions"? basically the type of every function contains a set of exceptions that it is able to throw
2018-11-16T19:16:55Z Riastradh: In principle a pretty reasonable concept, as long as I don't have to go near the rest of Java or the JVM.
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2018-11-16T19:19:28Z jcowan: No other language I know of except Java has gone with them; they turn out to be more trouble than they are worth.  They are enforced only by the Java compiler, not by the JVM itself.
2018-11-16T19:19:51Z Riastradh: Haskell
2018-11-16T19:19:59Z jcowan: In frustration, I actually declared my main function (used only for debugging) "throws IOException" in one program.
2018-11-16T19:23:03Z rain1: the haskell either type?
2018-11-16T19:23:10Z Riastradh: (I posit the reason everyone hates them in Java is because the context is Java, not because they're wrong in general.)
2018-11-16T19:24:27Z Riastradh: rain1: Sure, that's a simple example of the idea in Haskell.
2018-11-16T19:25:30Z rain1: I'm thinking about a version of ocaml with exception sets adde
2018-11-16T19:25:38Z Riastradh: Sounds reasonable.
2018-11-16T19:26:18Z jcowan: Either's use as an exception type is only conventional
2018-11-16T19:26:28Z jcowan: Maybe and Either coming soon to a Scheme near you!
2018-11-16T19:26:31Z Riastradh: The use of exceptions to signal exceptions is only conventional.
2018-11-16T19:26:41Z Riastradh: You could return error codes just as well instead.
2018-11-16T19:26:42Z qu1j0t3: jcowan: and ofc scala very deliberately eschews them. :)
2018-11-16T19:26:49Z jcowan: Well, Scala has Try.
2018-11-16T19:26:58Z qu1j0t3: eschews checked exceptions.
2018-11-16T19:27:03Z jcowan: which turns JVM-level exceptions into Either-style states.
2018-11-16T19:27:08Z jcowan: Ah.  Yes, so does C#
2018-11-16T19:27:09Z qu1j0t3 writes pure Scala
2018-11-16T19:27:10Z Riastradh: Heh.  Nixes the one worthwhile part of Java's type system.
2018-11-16T19:28:03Z qu1j0t3: generics? :)
2018-11-16T19:28:23Z Riastradh: Everyone has generics, and had them for decades before Java did, nothing special about that!
2018-11-16T19:28:26Z qu1j0t3: i know.
2018-11-16T19:28:41Z qu1j0t3: however, a worthwhile part. i don't use exceptions on the jvm anyhow. plenty of good types to use instead, as jcowan mentioned.
2018-11-16T19:29:10Z jcowan: worthwhile is not a synonym for unique
2018-11-16T19:29:13Z qu1j0t3: *not everyone has generics.
2018-11-16T19:29:28Z rain1: the problem with either is it only have 1 exception prompt
2018-11-16T19:29:33Z Riastradh: jcowan: C'mon, your pedantry is getting in the way of my ragging on Java!
2018-11-16T19:29:51Z qu1j0t3: rain1: encode as many as you want.
2018-11-16T19:30:01Z qu1j0t3: rain1: Eitehr isn't the only type that can carry error information.
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2018-11-16T19:58:00Z rain1: http://www.rntz.net/post/2016-06-06-not-everything-is-an-expression.html
2018-11-16T19:58:03Z rain1: i think this is a good point
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2018-11-16T20:40:45Z mejja: Riastradh, ;The object +inf.0, passed as the first argument to flonum-normalize, is not the correct type
2018-11-16T20:41:09Z Riastradh: mejja: Rebuild your compiler!
2018-11-16T20:41:19Z Riastradh: mejja: It has an incorrect integer? that thinks inf is an integer.
2018-11-16T20:41:46Z Riastradh: Hm.  Should probably keep the kludge in until the next release, though.
2018-11-16T20:42:06Z Riastradh: I guess it might be hard to rebuild your compiler without the kludge.
2018-11-16T20:44:23Z mejja: fantastic...
2018-11-16T20:44:46Z Riastradh: Revert 7828111b77fb53e34b365abc775148f49eabe1d2 (again) and it should build.
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2018-11-16T21:05:26Z Zipheir: rain1: What is the good point? That post seems rather confused.
2018-11-16T21:07:57Z Riastradh: I think the point is `everything is an expression' really means `we don't arbitrarily distinguish ``statements'' from ``expressions'' '?
2018-11-16T21:09:21Z Zipheir: Huh. Half the post seems to be about the strengths of modular macro building.
2018-11-16T21:11:07Z rain1: i also took from it the idea of syntax classes as a concept we can use or even make first class
2018-11-16T21:11:56Z Zipheir: Yes, that's an interesting idea.
2018-11-16T21:13:41Z Zipheir: Although the author doesn't clearly define any of the classes mentioned, or show an example of how matching on syntax class could be used.
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2018-11-16T23:33:17Z jcowan: In any case, definitions are not expressions in Scheme (they are in other Lisps)
2018-11-16T23:33:34Z jcowan: also, an expression that returns zero values is a pretty marginal case of an expression.
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2018-11-17T01:54:47Z mejja: Riastradh, (write (atan +i)) => ++inf.0i :-)
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2018-11-17T01:58:34Z Riastradh: Heh.
2018-11-17T01:58:57Z Riastradh: Is not my fault my predecessors wrote exactly zero automatic tests for this stuff!
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2018-11-17T02:04:14Z Riastradh: Ugh.  numpar.scm should not be all open-coded; it should be a nice little regular-expression-driven automaton in lex.
2018-11-17T02:04:35Z Riastradh: Integrating inf into this is gonna be a huge pain.
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2018-11-17T08:58:41Z realfascism: anyone using scheme in production? is it very productive compared to java n firends?
2018-11-17T08:58:57Z realfascism: does it play well with load balanced larger setups?
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2018-11-17T10:35:03Z pjb: realfascism: you may want to have a look at http://cliki.net/performance (it's not specific to scheme but lisp and other languages).
2018-11-17T10:38:19Z pjb: realfascism: compare (define (fizzbuzz) (let loop ((n 1)) (cond ((< 100 n)) ((= 0 (mod n 3)) (display (if (= 0 (mod n 5)) "fizzbuzz" "fizz"))) ((= 0 (mod n 5)) (display "buzz")) (else (display n))) (newline) (loop (+ 1 n))))  with https://github.com/EnterpriseQualityCoding/FizzBuzzEnterpriseEdition  and tell me which one is more productive.
2018-11-17T10:39:43Z erkin: I like how there're 254 open issues.
2018-11-17T10:40:17Z pjb: I mean: (define (fizzbuzz) (let loop ((n 1)) (if (<= n 100) (begin (cond ((= 0 (modulo n 3)) (display (if (= 0 (modulo n 5)) "fizzbuzz" "fizz"))) ((= 0 (modulo n 5)) (display "buzz")) (else (display n))) (newline) (loop (+ 1 n))))))
2018-11-17T10:41:00Z pjb: And they're great issues too!
2018-11-17T10:42:02Z pjb: It seems like directly from https://www.cia.gov/news-information/featured-story-archive/2012-featured-story-archive/simple-sabotage.html
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2018-11-17T13:26:12Z lllll: realfascism: lack of libraries is the biggest problem, but i guess you are trolling anyway
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2018-11-17T14:12:01Z qu1j0t3 pulls the gavino cord
2018-11-17T14:13:41Z wasamasa draws the gavino card
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2018-11-17T15:18:04Z amz3: what about building a database using chez scheme?
2018-11-17T15:18:08Z amz3: :troll face:
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2018-11-17T15:36:54Z pjb: amz3: postgresql was implemented in lisp originally.
2018-11-17T15:37:11Z pjb: amz3: so you could as well ue postgresql for your database.
2018-11-17T15:38:04Z pjb: amz3: unless you agree with me that RDBMS are not necessarily a good idea for the current needs in databases, and you want to write, eg. an OODBMS. But then is not specially OO; you may want to use Common Lisp and CLOS (and there are already a few OODBMS for CL).
2018-11-17T15:38:54Z pjb: amz3: On the other hand,  you could write a scheme stored procedure programming language plugin for postgresql, and implement your stored procedure in scheme, which would be very cool.
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2018-11-17T15:39:15Z pjb: Foremost if you can also store some scheme expressions in the table, and evaluate the.
2018-11-17T15:39:18Z pjb: them.
2018-11-17T15:40:27Z pjb: A few years ago, there was a bid for the tax software of the Algerian government, which called for storing BASIC expressions in the database to be run to compute the taxes, depending on the tax year and the current tax laws.
2018-11-17T15:40:38Z pjb: Would have been much better with scheme.
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2018-11-17T15:59:44Z amz3: pjb: how do you know about algerian tax software?
2018-11-17T16:00:07Z pjb: amz3: it was a public bid.
2018-11-17T16:00:29Z amz3: pjb: are you algerian?
2018-11-17T16:00:37Z pjb: Nope. French.
2018-11-17T16:00:59Z amz3: I don't think algerian accept foreign bids
2018-11-17T16:01:05Z pjb: There are web sites such as https://www.governmentbids.com/cgi/en/popular.product.rfps/software-development
2018-11-17T16:01:46Z amz3: interesting
2018-11-17T16:01:48Z pjb: https://www.dztenders.com/fr/archives/5680/Logiciel%252C%2BConseil%2Bet%2BServices%2Bd%2527Ing%25C3%25A9nierie%2BInformatique.
2018-11-17T16:01:49Z rudybot: http://teensy.info/53H6MTBvXZ
2018-11-17T16:01:56Z amz3: I am french-algerian.
2018-11-17T16:01:59Z pjb: http://www.made-in-algeria.com/data_4/ao_liste.php?pg_cr=x7S6ubLClJmOusG9wY/P487b2dPX59Ld4Y/FvLTAuY/h4+Th0+LT1+PT6eHN1d6rm6empZaO1d3SlNPP6NTN2dLW2dDc19TN1d6OsqyOm6GepaebpKSbpqSVlI/d5tPT5o/Q7Y/X2M7P44/S2eLR&id_secteur=21
2018-11-17T16:01:59Z rudybot: http://teensy.info/DFZlROQTGn
2018-11-17T16:02:00Z pjb: etc.
2018-11-17T16:02:23Z pjb: Almost all countries have the same kind of system to buy stuff…
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2018-11-17T16:03:15Z amz3: yes thanks for the links it is interesting
2018-11-17T16:04:30Z amz3: about the database stuff, I was going to say "don't feed the troll". The ful story, is that I started Scheme because guile had no global interpreter lock to build a database with high level language querying capability
2018-11-17T16:05:15Z amz3: And at the same time experiment with databases abstractions that are not like SQL pgsql, mysql and the like
2018-11-17T16:06:23Z amz3: that is abstractions that are no sql. So the goal is two sides: have a database with high level language programming (which can be done with embedding in pgsql) and that is not an RDBMS
2018-11-17T16:06:41Z amz3: actually, it's been 7 years of (free time) research and 4 years of scheme
2018-11-17T16:06:48Z amz3: 4 years of free time
2018-11-17T16:10:32Z amz3: the result of my research: first, key-value stores ala wiredtiger, rocksdb, lmdb _with_ ACID transaction support are the way to go. second, stored procedure are required to outgrow the monolith (database + business code) because serializing database queries when the schema is complex is very difficult. Third, I think the way to go is something in the spirit of RDF and datomic
2018-11-17T16:11:39Z amz3: that said, I don't have a project that is big and using RDF-like database, yet.
2018-11-17T16:13:35Z amz3: also, foundationdb is a game changer it makes building horizontally scalable applications a breeze from the data persistence point of view, while giving much room for abstractions (called "layers" in foundationdb slang)
2018-11-17T16:14:30Z amz3: right now, I am thinking about the datomic way of specifying a schema on-top the triple store to fine-tune / customize indexing
2018-11-17T16:15:16Z amz3: at the end of the day, if I had the save the world I would use postgresql, but since it's not the end of the world, yet, I can have some fun :)
2018-11-17T16:17:55Z amz3: I tried OO databases, they don't deliver when it comes to custom indexing (2D / 3D space, range search)
2018-11-17T16:18:05Z amz3: order-by stuff
2018-11-17T16:18:14Z amz3: same for graph databases
2018-11-17T16:20:28Z rain1: hi
2018-11-17T16:20:33Z amz3: o/
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2018-11-17T16:28:33Z jcowan: pjb: you only say that because Schemes come with eval, but not with basic-expr-eval, which should be downright trivial to write in Scheme
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2018-11-17T16:29:00Z pjb: :-)
2018-11-17T16:29:37Z pjb: jcowan: actually, there are better reasons to use scheme than just eval. It's the sexps.  You cannot have code injection problems with sexps, like you can have with basic or sql.
2018-11-17T16:30:03Z pjb: But if we used scheme, you couldn't write PhD theses about code injection and how to avoid them, so…
2018-11-17T16:30:21Z rain1: well said pjb
2018-11-17T16:30:26Z rain1: it's insane that these things are still problems
2018-11-17T16:30:32Z rain1: given that we know how to solve them
2018-11-17T16:30:57Z pjb: It's not the only kind of problem that wouldn't exist if lisp was used.
2018-11-17T16:31:10Z pjb: Basically, you could fire 3/4 of all programmers if we only used lisp.
2018-11-17T16:31:52Z pjb: Or conversely, you could write the software of the lunar bases, and the space ships to explore the galaxy with the same head count.
2018-11-17T16:33:46Z rain1: relating to that, one of the things that really struck me is this concept of adding more programmers means that they all just create work for each other
2018-11-17T16:33:55Z lllll: now you're talking
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2018-11-17T16:35:39Z ski_ . o O ( The mythical man-month )
2018-11-17T16:36:46Z lllll: btw NASA's deep space 1 had lisp in it
2018-11-17T16:37:43Z rain1: really!
2018-11-17T16:40:43Z lllll: http://www.flownet.com/gat/jpl-lisp.html
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2018-11-17T16:46:13Z jcowan: Erann/Ron gave me the biggest piece of wisdom about Google (the company) that I got in my four years there.  Unfortunately, I was too dumb to follow it, which led inexorably to my departure.
2018-11-17T16:50:39Z qu1j0t3: jcowan: ...and that would be?
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2018-11-17T16:50:57Z qu1j0t3: four years is nothing to be ashamed of
2018-11-17T16:51:29Z jcowan: "Don't be in a situation where people on other teams think more highly of you than people on your own team", roughly.
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2018-11-17T16:58:54Z lllll: did you use scheme there?
2018-11-17T17:01:32Z jcowan: No.  I was working entirely in Java.  There are CL groups in Google, but I know nothing about them.
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2018-11-17T17:39:39Z qu1j0t3: jcowan: lol, i fell into that trap at $otherBigCo
2018-11-17T17:39:53Z qu1j0t3: jcowan: i lasted 17 months. couldn't do a day more. thanks $manager
2018-11-17T17:40:15Z qu1j0t3 will never go back to a similar environment
2018-11-17T17:40:54Z qu1j0t3: jcowan: by my lights four years is amazing, though i knew 7 year veterans, once of whom was also defeated by my manager and quit a week after i did.
2018-11-17T17:41:36Z jcowan: Never say never.  The demands of family can be imperative.
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2018-11-17T17:44:38Z qu1j0t3: nah, pretty sure never.
2018-11-17T17:44:51Z qu1j0t3: family can find another way to kill me.
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2018-11-17T21:39:06Z buhman: is there a common name for (lambda (x) (- 0 x)) ?
2018-11-17T21:40:56Z lllll: -
2018-11-17T21:41:56Z buhman: huh, I didn't know that worked as a 1-ary function; seems like magic
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2018-11-17T21:43:07Z zachk: negate?
2018-11-17T21:50:43Z qu1j0t3: ^
2018-11-17T21:51:57Z zachk: you could also (* -1 x)
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2018-11-17T22:14:44Z dTal: or (- x x x)
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2018-11-17T22:29:05Z aeth: zachk: (* -1 x) isn't idiomatic. (- x) is. Always use (- x) because the other form might not be optimized.
2018-11-17T22:29:31Z aeth: (- 0 x) also might not be optimized.
2018-11-17T22:30:21Z aeth: Even more interestingly, (- 0 x) might be optimized and (- 0.0 x) might not be optimized.
2018-11-17T22:36:36Z dTal: (/ x -1)
2018-11-17T22:36:46Z Riastradh: (* -1 x) and (- x) behave slightly differently from (- 0 x).
2018-11-17T22:37:17Z jcowan: aeth: the last form can't be optimized because of (- 0.0 +inf.0) => -inf.0 and vice versa.
2018-11-17T22:37:49Z jcowan: Applying mathematical identities to simplify floats is a bad, bad idea
2018-11-17T22:38:03Z Riastradh: jcowan: Why do you draw a distinction between (- 0 x) and (- 0.0 x) there?
2018-11-17T22:38:12Z jcowan: True
2018-11-17T22:38:18Z jcowan: I should not
2018-11-17T22:38:25Z Riastradh: (assuming x is inexact; if not, of course they are different)
2018-11-17T22:38:43Z rain1: https://github.com/rain-1/racket-peg/tree/guile/tests/peg-syntax-harness   I have got all these PEG parser tests working in guile now
2018-11-17T22:39:08Z rain1: so the port is basically complete
2018-11-17T22:39:20Z Riastradh: rain1: How about a LALR parser?
2018-11-17T22:39:38Z rain1: I don't have that
2018-11-17T22:40:52Z jcowan: Dartmouth Lisp, the first Lisp I learned, treated - (spelled MINUS, I think) as right associative.  I've always thought that would be intrinsically better, though too late now.
2018-11-17T22:41:21Z Riastradh: jcowan: I tend to find it more useful for - and / to be left-associative.
2018-11-17T22:41:28Z Riastradh: More convenient, anyway.
2018-11-17T22:43:17Z jcowan: I can't remember the last time I used - with >2 arguments
2018-11-17T22:43:23Z Riastradh: Dunno about - but / anyway.
2018-11-17T22:43:31Z Riastradh: (/ x 1024 1024 1024) -> converte bytes to gigabytes.
2018-11-17T22:43:46Z jcowan nods
2018-11-17T22:44:16Z rain1: I kind of like the idea of dropping var args, every function should have a fixed number of args
2018-11-17T22:46:18Z jcowan: I made sure that was so in all the fx* and fl* predicates in SRFIs 143-44, where performance matters.  But typing (+ a (+ b (+ c ... is really obnoxious.
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2018-11-17T22:51:19Z rain1: main difficulty i had porting it was guile matcher is different from racket matcher
2018-11-17T22:51:57Z rain1: and racket needs some special phasing stuff to define functions that macros use, guile just lets you define them like normal functions
2018-11-17T22:52:12Z rain1: oh and CASE works with strings in racket but not guile
2018-11-17T22:52:18Z rain1: i really think CASE should work with strings
2018-11-17T22:52:23Z rain1: but it's easy to switch to MATCH
2018-11-17T22:54:14Z rain1: oh another important difference
2018-11-17T22:54:31Z rain1: racket module system lets you export (all-defined-out) all functions defined
2018-11-17T22:54:36Z rain1: but guile doesn't have that
2018-11-17T22:54:58Z jcowan: Strings are immutable in Racket, which is why CASE can work with them.
2018-11-17T22:55:36Z rain1: ah so becaues of the immutabilitiy EQV? works on strings
2018-11-17T22:55:45Z rain1: but really I think we should just make CASE use EQUAL?
2018-11-17T22:57:49Z aeth: jcowan: It shouldn't be optimized, but it could be.
2018-11-17T22:58:27Z aeth: Riastradh: The difference is that 0.0 will guarantee that the result is a float
2018-11-17T22:58:40Z aeth: x could be anything, and if x is known to be an integer, why not optimize?
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2018-11-17T23:09:23Z lllll: chez has a built-in profiler with annotated source html generator, very cool
2018-11-17T23:09:33Z lllll: did not know that
2018-11-17T23:10:34Z lllll: it generates heatmap using the number of executions of each instruction
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2018-11-17T23:34:02Z Riastradh: Where's mejja?  Get over here, mejja!  I have something essentially useless to tell you.
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2018-11-17T23:35:37Z Riastradh: rudybot: eval (make-rectangular (/ 1. 0.) (/ 0. 0.))
2018-11-17T23:35:38Z rudybot: Riastradh: ; Value: +inf.0+nan.0i
2018-11-17T23:35:53Z Riastradh: rudybot: eval (make-polar (/ 1. 0.) (/ 0. 0.))
2018-11-17T23:35:53Z rudybot: Riastradh: ; Value: +nan.0+nan.0i
2018-11-17T23:35:56Z Riastradh: rudybot: eval (make-polar (/ 1. 0.) (/ 1. 0.))
2018-11-17T23:35:56Z rudybot: Riastradh: ; Value: +nan.0+nan.0i
2018-11-17T23:36:01Z Riastradh: rudybot: eval (make-polar 1. (/ 1. 0.))
2018-11-17T23:36:01Z rudybot: Riastradh: ; Value: +nan.0+nan.0i
2018-11-17T23:36:07Z Riastradh: rudybot: eval +inf.0-inf.0i
2018-11-17T23:36:07Z rudybot: Riastradh: ; Value: +inf.0-inf.0i
2018-11-17T23:36:22Z Riastradh: rudybot: eval 1@0
2018-11-17T23:36:22Z rudybot: Riastradh: ; Value: 1
2018-11-17T23:36:25Z Riastradh: rudybot: eval 0@1
2018-11-17T23:36:25Z rudybot: Riastradh: ; Value: 0
2018-11-17T23:36:30Z Riastradh: rudybot: eval 1@-inf.0
2018-11-17T23:36:31Z rudybot: Riastradh: ; Value: +nan.0+nan.0i
2018-11-17T23:37:05Z Riastradh: rudybot: eval (sin 3.1415926535897932384626433832795)
2018-11-17T23:37:05Z rudybot: Riastradh: ; Value: 1.2246467991473532e-16
2018-11-17T23:37:39Z Riastradh: Oh good, rudybot's sin isn't running on a busted i387 libm.
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2018-11-17T23:54:45Z buhman: yeah, because CPUs with branch prediction vunerabilities are so much better than benign FPU errors.
2018-11-17T23:56:14Z Riastradh: ...who said anything about branch prediction?
2018-11-17T23:56:54Z buhman: me?
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2018-11-18T00:24:06Z Zipheir: That was a predictable response.
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2018-11-18T01:07:11Z jcowan: Predicting the unpredictable
2018-11-18T01:07:18Z jcowan: or predicating the impredicative
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2018-11-18T01:08:41Z gwatt: we shouldn't have to choose between branch prediction vulns and FPU errors (which may or may not be benign)
2018-11-18T01:15:34Z Riastradh: mejja: Fixed the build from 10.whatever and the notation.  What else is broken now?
2018-11-18T01:17:27Z mejja: the release notes (flotrap). No such procedure: flo:all-exceptions
2018-11-18T01:17:45Z Riastradh: Heh.  Oops.
2018-11-18T01:19:55Z Riastradh: mejja: fixed
2018-11-18T01:23:26Z mejja: Also (make-polar +inf.0 0) vs (make-polar +inf.0 0.0), why the nan?
2018-11-18T01:25:46Z Riastradh: (sin 0)
2018-11-18T01:25:46Z Riastradh: ;Value: 0
2018-11-18T01:25:46Z Riastradh: (sin 0.)
2018-11-18T01:25:46Z Riastradh: ;Value: 0.
2018-11-18T01:25:46Z Riastradh: (* +inf.0 0)
2018-11-18T01:25:49Z Riastradh: ;Value: 0
2018-11-18T01:25:51Z Riastradh: (* +inf.0 0.)
2018-11-18T01:25:54Z Riastradh: ;Value: +nan.0
2018-11-18T01:25:56Z Riastradh: Apparently because of that.
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2018-11-18T01:31:39Z mejja: same in gambit btw
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2018-11-18T01:50:41Z Riastradh: (make-polar mag 0) now always returns mag (if it is a real number or floating-point value).
2018-11-18T01:50:55Z Riastradh: Also (* +inf.0 0) now returns NaN as it should.
2018-11-18T01:55:31Z Riastradh: As for (make-polar +inf.0 0.), I'm open to arguments about what it should be.
2018-11-18T01:57:03Z gwatt: chez and guile say +inf.0+nan.0i
2018-11-18T01:58:25Z Riastradh: I think that's a reasonable choice.
2018-11-18T02:09:08Z mejja: You can find the set of all exceptions that can be trapped with (flo:exceptions->names (flo:trappable-exceptions)), please
2018-11-18T02:11:07Z Riastradh: mejja: Better?
2018-11-18T02:11:19Z mejja: #t
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2018-11-18T02:48:17Z mejja: Riastradh, more fun stuff: (atan -2i) vs (atan 0.0-2i)
2018-11-18T02:54:41Z Riastradh: Hmmm.
2018-11-18T02:54:41Z Riastradh: 2+0.
2018-11-18T02:54:41Z Riastradh: ;Value: 2.
2018-11-18T02:55:24Z mejja: infix for the win!
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2018-11-18T03:06:05Z Riastradh: @!&#*@!
2018-11-18T03:06:09Z Riastradh: <= is broken.
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2018-11-18T03:10:45Z buhman: http://paste.debian.net/1052165/ I'm a scheme noob; I wrote this, but it seems awkward, particularly the remove-first implementation
2018-11-18T03:11:02Z buhman: is there a better way to do either/both of those things?
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2018-11-18T03:19:45Z Zipheir: buhman: (define (remove-first y l) (match l (() '()) ((x . xs) (if (eqv? x y) xs (cons x (remove-first y xs)))))) would be my golf at remove-first.
2018-11-18T03:26:51Z buhman: hmm yeah that looks much better
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2018-11-18T03:28:06Z Zipheir: Also, (apply cmp xs) may blow up since xs is an arbitrary list.
2018-11-18T03:28:36Z Zipheir: I'm not exactly sure what your take-cmp is supposed to do.
2018-11-18T03:29:16Z buhman: when cmp is `max`, it would take the n largest elements
2018-11-18T03:30:03Z buhman: is there a standard list variant of max?
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2018-11-18T03:31:58Z Zipheir: (fold max (car xs) (cdr xs))
2018-11-18T03:32:30Z buhman: nice
2018-11-18T03:32:33Z buhman: didn't think of that either
2018-11-18T03:32:45Z Zipheir: If you just want the n largest elements of a list, just sort it and take n.
2018-11-18T03:32:51Z buhman: heh
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2018-11-18T03:38:40Z Zipheir: And a take/sort composition still seems like the way to go if you want the largest elements as defined by some arbitrary cmp function.
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2018-11-18T03:39:00Z Zipheir: The monolithic version gets pretty hairy.
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2018-11-18T04:26:08Z Riastradh: Hm.
2018-11-18T04:26:14Z Riastradh: rudybot: eval (atan -2i)
2018-11-18T04:26:15Z rudybot: Riastradh: ; Value: -1.5707963267948966-0.5493061443340549i
2018-11-18T04:26:18Z Riastradh: rudybot: eval (atan 0.-2i)
2018-11-18T04:26:19Z rudybot: Riastradh: ; Value: -1.5707963267948966-0.5493061443340549i
2018-11-18T04:26:21Z Riastradh: rudybot: eval (atan -0.-2i)
2018-11-18T04:26:22Z rudybot: Riastradh: ; Value: -1.5707963267948966-0.5493061443340549i
2018-11-18T04:26:46Z Riastradh: rudybot: eval (atan 0.-2.i)
2018-11-18T04:26:47Z rudybot: Riastradh: ; Value: -1.5707963267948966-0.5493061443340549i
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2018-11-18T04:29:59Z Riastradh: rudybot: eval (atan -i)
2018-11-18T04:29:59Z rudybot: Riastradh: ; Value: -inf.0
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2018-11-18T04:38:20Z Riastradh: rudybot: eval (atan -1e-100-2.i)
2018-11-18T04:38:21Z rudybot: Riastradh: ; Value: -1.5707963267948966-0.5493061443340548i
2018-11-18T04:38:25Z Riastradh: rudybot: eval (atan +1e-100-2.i)
2018-11-18T04:38:25Z rudybot: Riastradh: ; Value: 1.5707963267948966-0.5493061443340548i
2018-11-18T04:39:08Z Riastradh: So, Scheme's idea of exactness is kind of unfortunate here!
2018-11-18T04:40:50Z Riastradh: The standard way to compute (atan z) is (/ (- (log (+ 1 iz)) (log (- 1 iz))) 2i), where iz = (* +i z).  When z's components are floating-point numbers, the sign of a zero real part in z becomes the sign of the zero imaginary part in iz, which determines which side of the branch cut the log is on, if you'll pardon the pun.
2018-11-18T04:41:56Z Riastradh: Rather, when you compute (+ 1 iz) an (- 1 iz), the signs get flipped the right way.
2018-11-18T04:42:51Z Riastradh: But if z's real part is Scheme exact zero, then so are the imaginary parts of iz, (+ 1 iz), and (- 1 iz), which are thus all evaluated on the positive imaginary side of the log branch cut, rather than on opposite sides as they should be.
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2018-11-18T05:04:21Z jcowan: Riastradh: Mixed-exactness complex numbers are kind of a gap in the standards, and many Schemes don't support them at all (except for the special case of (imag-part some-flonum) being 0.
2018-11-18T05:05:14Z jcowan: https://bitbucket.org/cowan/r7rs-wg1-infra/src/default/ComplexRepresentations.md
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2018-11-18T06:13:03Z Riastradh: jcowan: Actually in this case there's no mixed exactness.
2018-11-18T06:13:25Z Riastradh: jcowan: (atan -2i) should give the same result as (atan 0.-2.i).
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2018-11-18T06:25:14Z Riastradh: 0+0+0+0+0i
2018-11-18T06:25:15Z Riastradh: ;Value: 0
2018-11-18T06:25:16Z Riastradh: Hmmmmmmmmmmm.
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2018-11-18T09:25:14Z fraxamo: Hi, which Scheme implementation is going to give me the smoothest experience when working through HTDP and The Little Schemer (TLS)?
2018-11-18T09:25:39Z fraxamo: I started using BiwaScheme via repl.it and found a number of issues after a few pages of TLS.
2018-11-18T09:25:54Z fraxamo: Being new to Scheme I was unable to figure out the problem. Or fix them.
2018-11-18T09:26:16Z fraxamo: I see that a new version of Chicken Scheme has just been released. Would this work well?
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2018-11-18T09:29:08Z wasamasa: well, its devs are busy fixing bugs and porting eggs
2018-11-18T09:29:45Z wasamasa: so if that's your jam, sure
2018-11-18T09:30:06Z wasamasa: just so you know, the HTDP people use racket
2018-11-18T09:30:44Z fraxamo: wasamasa: So, generally, would it be better to start with Racket than Scheme?
2018-11-18T09:30:56Z wasamasa: it depends
2018-11-18T09:31:08Z fraxamo: Haha. Always the right answer :)
2018-11-18T09:31:22Z wasamasa: like, if they make use of racket features (like #lang to select a specific language), then use racket
2018-11-18T09:31:40Z fraxamo: Sure
2018-11-18T09:31:58Z wasamasa: in any case, it caters more for beginners than biwa
2018-11-18T09:32:00Z fraxamo: I doubt if that's the case in the TLS though right?
2018-11-18T09:32:11Z wasamasa: yeah, doubtful
2018-11-18T09:32:32Z fraxamo: So which Scheme would you use to go through TLS?
2018-11-18T09:32:42Z fraxamo: I'll start there and then move to HTDP
2018-11-18T09:33:07Z wasamasa: my favorite is CHICKEN, so I'd go with that
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2018-11-18T09:33:28Z wasamasa: I also like kawa
2018-11-18T09:34:08Z fraxamo: Excellent. Any reason not to go with the latest version of CHICKEN?
2018-11-18T09:34:21Z wasamasa: as I've mentioned before, it's a breaking change
2018-11-18T09:34:32Z wasamasa: so you'll run into roadblocks, like the doc tool not being ported yet
2018-11-18T09:34:56Z fraxamo: Ok, so better to use the previous stable version?
2018-11-18T09:35:03Z fraxamo: Until I know what I'm doing
2018-11-18T09:35:07Z wasamasa: yeah, it's most likely going to be packaged by your OS, too
2018-11-18T09:37:04Z fraxamo: FreeBSD has 4.13.0 as well as 5.0, so 4.13.0 it is then
2018-11-18T09:37:18Z fraxamo: Thanks for your help
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2018-11-18T17:27:21Z jcowan: The best-supported implementations for SICP are Racket and MIT, for the record.
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2018-11-18T21:40:37Z ecraven: what exactly is string-length supposed to count? r7rs says "characters", does that mean unicode code points?
2018-11-18T21:41:01Z pjb: ecraven: unicode messes with everything.
2018-11-18T21:41:21Z wasamasa: if the implementation uses them, sure
2018-11-18T21:41:21Z pjb: ecraven: it would depend on how the implementation maps unicode code points to characters.
2018-11-18T21:41:29Z wasamasa: but it's permitted to just use the ascii subset
2018-11-18T21:42:06Z ecraven: wasamasa: so this is just "unspecified behaviour" in the end?
2018-11-18T21:42:09Z pjb: If the implementation considers that glyphs are characters, then it would have to have fat character objects, comprised of all the combining code points of a single glyph.
2018-11-18T21:42:33Z wasamasa: no, the unspecified bit is what a character ends up being
2018-11-18T21:42:40Z pjb: But most implementers are lazy and want to provide "fast" strings, so they will map unicode code points to characters, which is wrong IMO.
2018-11-18T21:43:42Z jcowan: ecraven: string-length in what standard?
2018-11-18T21:43:50Z pjb: (- (string-length s) 1) is the maximum index you can use in (string-ref s index).
2018-11-18T21:43:50Z ecraven: jcowan: r7rs ;)
2018-11-18T21:44:23Z jcowan: In R7RS, string operations are defined on characters, and the set of characters is implementation defined
2018-11-18T21:44:44Z jcowan: however, it is definitely not defined on code units (8, 16, or 32 bit entities)
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2018-11-18T21:45:15Z ecraven: so you just don't know what string-length will return for a given string? and it might differ between implementations, for the exact same string?
2018-11-18T21:45:24Z jcowan: no
2018-11-18T21:45:51Z jcowan: R7RS implementations can only differ in which characters are supported or not
2018-11-18T21:46:25Z ecraven: why not? ö might be encoded as two bytes, which might be read as two codepoints, which might then be canonicalised to the pre-encoded codepoint?
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2018-11-18T21:46:55Z ecraven: I'll rephrase, *if* an implementation claims to support unicode, will string-length return the number of codepoints in a string?
2018-11-18T21:47:37Z jcowan: Yes
2018-11-18T21:47:44Z ecraven: where does it say that in r7rs?
2018-11-18T21:47:48Z jcowan: You can subset Unicode but you can't break it
2018-11-18T21:48:09Z ecraven: (also ö cannot be encoded as two bytes, s/bytes/codepoints/)
2018-11-18T21:48:09Z pjb: "supporting unicode" doesn't mean HOW you support it.
2018-11-18T21:48:42Z ecraven: jcowan: so an implementation that maps "character" to mean "glyph" (not "codepoint") would not be conforming to r7rs?
2018-11-18T21:49:04Z jcowan: Yes
2018-11-18T21:49:08Z jcowan: still looking for citation
2018-11-18T21:49:41Z ecraven: and "grapheme cluster" is the what mean by "glyph"
2018-11-18T21:49:46Z ecraven: more thinking, less typing
2018-11-18T21:49:51Z pjb: Yes.
2018-11-18T21:50:58Z jcowan: note that there are two kinds of grapheme clusters in Unicode, and there are several cases in which the user idea of a glyph doesn't match either of them
2018-11-18T21:51:39Z ecraven: unrelated, but does any Scheme support something like a "string of grapheme clusters"?
2018-11-18T21:52:18Z jcowan: More specifically, an implementation (per the beginning of 6.6) can support anything it wants to as non-Unicode characters (codes above 200000), including glyphs, or for that matter texts in gutenberg.org
2018-11-18T21:52:36Z jcowan: but no system does that
2018-11-18T21:52:47Z jcowan: and a string is a sequence of characters per the beginning of 6.7
2018-11-18T21:55:03Z ecraven: thanks for explaining
2018-11-18T21:55:27Z ecraven: so in the end, it comes down to whatever read-string (or similar functions) do?
2018-11-18T21:55:59Z ecraven: i.e. conversion from bytes to characters
2018-11-18T21:56:25Z jcowan: yes, the encoding is implementation specific
2018-11-18T21:58:56Z jcowan: If I had my way strings would be primitive, as in Python, rather than a sequence of characters
2018-11-18T21:59:06Z jcowan: (just as an integer is not considered a sequence of digit objects)
2018-11-18T21:59:37Z ecraven: so it would be conforming to "read" #x75 #x308 (u + combining diaresis) as #xfc ü
2018-11-18T22:00:12Z ecraven: so you can only extract substrings from strings? (I've never used python with strings. isn't that the language with lots of separate but each not entirely useful string classes?)
2018-11-18T22:00:39Z ecraven: I mean, don't you need some way to convert between characters and strings?
2018-11-18T22:03:18Z jcowan: Python 2 has strings that contain only Latin-1 characters and can be treated as bytevectors, plus Unicode strings; Python 3 has (Unicode) strings and bytevectors.
2018-11-18T22:03:34Z jcowan: (Haskell is the one with lots of string classes)
2018-11-18T22:03:54Z jcowan: In Python a character is just a term for a minimal substring
2018-11-18T22:06:33Z jcowan: In a Unicode world there is no unique way to cut strings into most-useful units, it's just that codepoints are the smallest possible useful unit.
2018-11-18T22:06:59Z nisstyre: jcowan: I mean other languages have different types for bytestrings and regular text too
2018-11-18T22:07:02Z ecraven: doesn't that mean that "character" is also a rather useless data type?
2018-11-18T22:07:09Z nisstyre: Haskell just has two main "text" types (String and Text)
2018-11-18T22:07:12Z jcowan: Indeed
2018-11-18T22:07:36Z nisstyre: idk, people like to complain about minor stuff like that
2018-11-18T22:07:45Z pjb: It just is more complex than just an small code.
2018-11-18T22:09:10Z jcowan: woops, ambiguous.  ecraven: indeed.  nisstyre: String and then lazy and eager Text, are all "sequences of characters"
2018-11-18T22:09:31Z nisstyre: I really like the idea of OverloadedStrings too, other languages could do the same thing
2018-11-18T22:09:41Z nisstyre: it works better with type inference though
2018-11-18T22:11:04Z nisstyre: ecraven: instead of characters it would be bytes that you work with on that scale
2018-11-18T22:11:13Z nisstyre: and that would only be for certain things like binary protocols
2018-11-18T22:11:24Z nisstyre: or writing a lexer
2018-11-18T22:11:39Z ecraven: well, there is a legitimate use for codepoints, rather than bytes, but "character" seems rather complicated :-/
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2018-11-18T22:14:17Z jcowan: With a very few exceptions, characters are in practice codepoints, certainly in R7RS.  Chicken by default does not make them so even in R7RS mode, but there is a utf8 library to handle them
2018-11-18T22:15:04Z jcowan: As for grapheme clusters, besides legacy and extended GCs there is an explicit expectation for per-language tailoring
2018-11-18T22:15:10Z jcowan: see http://www.unicode.org/reports/tr29/#Grapheme_Cluster_Boundaries for the nitty gritty
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2018-11-18T22:25:25Z Riastradh: Shoulda made strings have opaque cursors.  Don't privilege indexing by code points.
2018-11-18T22:45:01Z jcowan: We privilege it for the same reason that linguists privilege phonemes.  They aren't perfect, but they let you build up higher-level constructs ad libitum, and there is rarely much disagreement about the list.
2018-11-18T22:45:19Z jcowan: Or, I might say, masons privilege bricks.
2018-11-18T22:47:02Z Riastradh: I like bytes.
2018-11-18T22:48:01Z jcowan: I like bricks. My house is built of them (third little pig style).
2018-11-18T22:48:19Z jcowan: Occasionally a half a brick is useful, but most of the time bricks are atomic.
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2018-11-19T00:06:26Z jonaslund: In some ways i think the utf-8 everywhere idea was the right move, much of the time the stuff that you want to interpret/parse is just discrete chars (usually in ascii space for encodings) and the rest should just be treated as opaque data-sequences anyhow (so being a codepoint or glyphs doesn't really matter)
2018-11-19T00:07:12Z jonaslund: (In so many cases the text goes from one end of being in a text-box to the other end being displayed by some rendering system)
2018-11-19T00:08:12Z jonaslund: now of course this varies between fields but i have a feeling that a majority of the programming done doesn't really need to process user-produced/consumed text
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2018-11-19T00:33:17Z dTal: there's no easy way out
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2018-11-19T00:36:45Z dTal: traditional assumptions about what you can do with text and what a 'character' means just fly out the window when you introduce code points that eg make all subsequent text right to left
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2018-11-19T00:44:49Z jonaslund: dTal: right, and as unicode is an evolving standard of data, tying language semantics to evolution of said data has made everything into a mess
2018-11-19T00:45:19Z dTal: I feel like maybe Unicode tries to do too much
2018-11-19T00:45:25Z jonaslund: we should've learned from the Java/C#/win32 descision of making everything 16bit
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2018-11-19T00:45:54Z dTal: but on the other hand it's not clear what the layering should be, or whether that would just make an even bigger mess
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2018-11-19T00:46:44Z jonaslund: i don't mind it, but i think that the task of iterating/manipulating unicode data should be left to libraries/algorithms that are not language level artifacts
2018-11-19T00:47:12Z dTal: yeah, variable length characters was a misstep I agree
2018-11-19T00:47:26Z dTal: in practice anywhere that space matters compression is used anyway
2018-11-19T00:48:05Z dTal: but when Unicode was invented 16 bits felt bigger I guess
2018-11-19T00:48:13Z jonaslund: actually i think that might've been a blessing in disguise
2018-11-19T00:48:26Z dTal: mind you 16 bits still isn't anywhere near enough
2018-11-19T00:48:37Z dTal: there's over a million code points
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2018-11-19T01:58:03Z X-Scale: So, http://www.cs.indiana.edu/scheme-repository/ seems to be gone, but some pages are still on google cache. Must have been moved or deleted a few days ago.
2018-11-19T01:59:34Z X-Scale: :/
2018-11-19T02:06:51Z X-Scale: the ftp dir still seems to be online though: ftp://ftp.cs.indiana.edu/pub/scheme-repository/
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2018-11-19T02:13:44Z jcowan: Unfortunately, Java 1.0 came out one year before Unicode space was extended to #x10FFFF.
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2018-11-19T02:24:26Z perplexity: always remembered this channel's user base being much bigger
2018-11-19T02:28:09Z Riastradh: X-Scale: Someone has to choose to archive it for it to remain...
2018-11-19T02:32:58Z jcowan: http://web.archive.org/web/20180928122441/https://www.cs.indiana.edu/scheme-repository/
2018-11-19T02:34:08Z jcowan: Which claims that the last addition was twenty years ago.  But the IA will preserve it.
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2018-11-19T12:20:34Z jcowan: elderK: for reference, Scheme does not have comma-dot.
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2018-11-19T12:29:43Z ManDay: I found a typo! http://www.r6rs.org/final/html/r6rs/r6rs-Z-H-14.html#node_idx_640
2018-11-19T12:29:46Z ManDay: Can I get a cookie?
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2018-11-19T12:56:44Z jcowan gives ManDay a cookie
2018-11-19T12:56:57Z jcowan: For typos in R7RS, you get a chocolate chip pancake!
2018-11-19T12:57:33Z ManDay: wow! I haven't read a lot in it, but I'm motivated now!
2018-11-19T12:57:47Z ManDay enjoys the cookie :)
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2018-11-19T13:07:42Z ManDay: jcowan: Can you give me the link to where this can be read conveniently? I can't seem to find it anymore
2018-11-19T13:08:18Z ecraven: https://bitbucket.org/cowan/r7rs/src/draft-10/rnrs/r7rs.pdf
2018-11-19T13:08:22Z ecraven: from www.r7rs.org
2018-11-19T13:10:52Z ManDay: Hm, no html like r6rs anywhere?
2018-11-19T13:11:16Z ManDay: It sure looks beautiful, but I can't stand PDFs personally ;-/
2018-11-19T13:11:25Z ecraven: not sure, there's the latex sources :P
2018-11-19T13:13:02Z ecraven: I still hope one day we'll revive skribe and author rnrs in it ;D
2018-11-19T13:13:40Z ManDay: i like the r6rs html
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2018-11-19T13:58:42Z jcowan: Unfortunately, the highly hacked LaTeX to HTML converter used for previous reports doesn't like the presence of inter-document links.
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2018-11-19T13:58:57Z jcowan: And no one has had the energy to fix it.
2018-11-19T13:59:20Z jcowan: I suppose the links could be stripped out of the TeX and then try running it.  I like the HTML too, but I can't do everything.
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2018-11-19T14:07:36Z ogamita: jcowan: depends. No arms, no chocolate.
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2018-11-19T14:14:22Z jcowan: I have arms.  Two.
2018-11-19T14:15:26Z ManDay: jcowan: i think there is no problem with a pdf spec. seems to work fine for the C-family folks. just personally i don't like it
2018-11-19T14:15:38Z jcowan nods.
2018-11-19T14:15:47Z jcowan: The HTML is handier to find things in, but the links help.
2018-11-19T14:16:10Z ManDay: which kind of links do you mean?
2018-11-19T14:16:43Z ManDay: you mean like section links or sth?
2018-11-19T14:18:43Z ManDay: if may ask, by the way: why latex?
2018-11-19T14:19:02Z ManDay: md or especially rst seems to have been a much better choice inmo
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2018-11-19T14:22:51Z jcowan: Scheme standards have been written in LaTex since probably R2RS.  As each is derived by modifying the one before, no one wants to undergo a (possibly information losing) conversion.
2018-11-19T14:23:06Z jcowan: Yes, section links, both in the text and in the TOC
2018-11-19T14:23:41Z jcowan: The CLHS is awesome, but a little hard to get context from.
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2018-11-19T14:24:39Z ecraven: also, the typographic quality of md or rst is ... debatable. if you want to achieve what r7rs has, you need to add a lot of extra information, making it not md/rst anyway
2018-11-19T14:26:30Z ManDay: ecraven: I'm totally okay with rst. I write everything in it. Contrary to latex, the markup is not a complete desaster. although, sure, the rst2html5 renderer could always be improved.
2018-11-19T14:26:49Z ManDay: what thing do you mean is missing so that it can't be described in rst appropriately?
2018-11-19T14:28:28Z ecraven: ManDay: everything that latex has, but rst doesn't... actual layout information, for example
2018-11-19T14:28:45Z ecraven: rst is for describing content, not layout
2018-11-19T14:29:05Z ManDay: ecraven: good god, yes!
2018-11-19T14:29:16Z ecraven: that's the point, sometimes, you actually *want* to describe layout :P
2018-11-19T14:29:36Z ecraven: (I'm not saying latex is ideal here, just that going to md or rst is a one-way street)
2018-11-19T14:29:51Z ManDay: why the f* would you want to concern yourself with layout?
2018-11-19T14:30:06Z ManDay: i mean sure, if the printer does a good job at it, the nicer the better
2018-11-19T14:30:27Z ManDay: but the actual document should be (almost) pure content
2018-11-19T14:30:47Z ecraven: that is debatable.. the actual layout of documents does matter, imho
2018-11-19T14:31:05Z ManDay: ecraven: if it becomes outright ugly on unreadable, sure!
2018-11-19T14:31:28Z ManDay: but if you're having beauty problems with rst2html5, i really can't relate
2018-11-19T14:31:32Z ecraven: ManDay: beyond that.. I do like beautiful typography, and I don't think that is achievable (yet) with automatic formatters for rst or md
2018-11-19T14:31:53Z ecraven: I don't know rst2html5, just saying there's no way to move from latex to rst/md without actually loosing information
2018-11-19T14:32:17Z ecraven: nothing prevents you from writing a (probably not too complex) converter from r7rs to rst/md
2018-11-19T14:32:36Z ManDay: ecraven: in technical documents, i couldn't care less about beauty. it should be plain simple and readable. and I find conflating content with style in the document a HUGE sacrifice to make just for that little bit more of beauty you get from it.
2018-11-19T14:32:57Z ecraven: ManDay: that is an entirely good opinion for you to have
2018-11-19T14:33:04Z ecraven: but I'm a bit opposed on you forcing it onto me :P
2018-11-19T14:33:28Z ecraven: I'm not saying latex is ideal, just that there is more to excellent documents than the content
2018-11-19T14:34:25Z ManDay: ecraven: agreed. i just put more importance onto the fact that binding yourself to an awful markup (latex) and mixing content and style than you, i think
2018-11-19T14:34:48Z ManDay: that said, of course i'm forcing my opinion on you! You should wanna have it any other way on IRC :-p
2018-11-19T14:34:55Z ecraven: it doesn't have to be that way with latex, you can define your own macros
2018-11-19T14:35:01Z ManDay: *shouldn't, goddamn freudian slips
2018-11-19T14:35:25Z ecraven: that's what I like about latex, as opposed to predefined markup languages.. it is an actual *language* that you can reshape and extend
2018-11-19T14:35:41Z ecraven: as opposed to just living with whatever the creator of the flavour of the day deemed useful
2018-11-19T14:36:11Z ecraven: in a way, this is what Scheme is about to me :P *I* can change the language via function and macro definitions, I'm not bound to what some compiler writer thought to be a good language
2018-11-19T14:37:40Z ManDay: ecraven: that's now how I see it. take rst, the "creator of rst" doesn't let you live with whatever layout or style they found useful. on the contrary: they explicitly leave any notion of layout from the language in the first place!
2018-11-19T14:37:52Z ManDay: latex is just one big clusterfuck for that
2018-11-19T14:38:25Z ManDay: sure, you can do anything with it (just as much as you can do anything with rst (layout wise), if you write your own rst convertor), but it's semantically dirty
2018-11-19T14:39:25Z ManDay: coming from a webdev background years back, it's still that separation of semantics and style... as if you had no CSS but mangled it all into the html
2018-11-19T14:39:30Z ManDay: I'd throw up
2018-11-19T14:40:10Z ecraven: ManDay: I disagree, the creator of rst defines what sort of abstractions you have. you cannot define your own (unless you want to fork rst). In latex, it is all the same syntax, but you can change what it means
2018-11-19T14:40:36Z ecraven: (again, not saying latex syntax is in any way sane, but it is extensible)
2018-11-19T14:40:55Z ecraven: anyway, we might just agree to disagree ;)
2018-11-19T14:41:45Z ManDay: ecraven: The point is, content-wise, there is only that many abstractions. And rst defines them. If something is actually missing, it should be added to rst. But I think content-wise, everything is there in rst (quotes, remarks, links, roc, refs, etc.) and content is king
2018-11-19T14:41:50Z qu1j0t3: LaTeX is very much designed to separate style and semantics, but it can be misused ofc; so can css (and usually is)
2018-11-19T14:42:14Z ManDay: qu1j0t3: Now that's entirely new to me...
2018-11-19T14:42:26Z ecraven: ManDay: semi-related, do you know https://www-sop.inria.fr/mimosa/fp/Skribe/doc/user-2.html#Getting-Started
2018-11-19T14:42:33Z ManDay: I have seen no facilities in Latex to separate style from content, whatsoever
2018-11-19T14:42:39Z qu1j0t3: heh
2018-11-19T14:42:42Z qu1j0t3: it's basic to the design
2018-11-19T14:43:00Z qu1j0t3: are you confusing with TeX maybe?
2018-11-19T14:43:10Z ManDay: i suppose?
2018-11-19T14:43:21Z ManDay: i thought of latex as just a heavy tex
2018-11-19T14:43:29Z ecraven: ManDay: then you might want to look closer... \section{foo} does very different things depending on what document type (among the many extensions) you use. it is purely semantic, it is not related much to layout
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2018-11-19T14:43:34Z qu1j0t3: sure, it's higher level
2018-11-19T14:44:11Z qu1j0t3: it introduces a bunch of high level concepts that don't define visual interpretation (though of course, lower level ones can .. and one could argue the separation could be taken farther than it is)
2018-11-19T14:44:19Z ManDay: ecraven: But that's just a superficial distinction. Behind the scenes, the \section{} is just a command expanding to other shit, and other shit is being redefined to look differently.
2018-11-19T14:44:26Z qu1j0t3: but in _intention_ it was meant to provide that separation more than plain TeX
2018-11-19T14:45:07Z ecraven: ManDay: how is that relevant? to me, the user, it is semantic
2018-11-19T14:45:25Z ecraven: qu1j0t3: I'd argue that it does achieve that goal to some degree ;)
2018-11-19T14:45:30Z qu1j0t3: so would I
2018-11-19T14:45:39Z qu1j0t3: after all it's why you can produce HTML _at all_ from it
2018-11-19T14:46:03Z ecraven: for example, https://bitbucket.org/cowan/r7rs/src/4c27517de187142ad2cf4bcd8cb9199ae1e48c09/spec/procs.tex?at=draft-10&fileviewer=file-view-default is almost all semantic markup, not related to actual layout
2018-11-19T14:46:04Z rudybot: http://teensy.info/LeY7Vwq0Oe
2018-11-19T14:46:26Z qu1j0t3: ecraven: for sure. there is still room for abuse though, like css.
2018-11-19T14:46:35Z ManDay: ecraven: The point is, it is *all* contained in the document. There is no abstraction being made which would allow you to draw a line and "plug together" different styles with different contents.
2018-11-19T14:46:51Z qu1j0t3: ManDay: Yes you can
2018-11-19T14:47:00Z ecraven: ManDay: of course there is. look into latex-beamer. you write the same user-level code, and just run \usebeamertheme{...}
2018-11-19T14:47:05Z ecraven: producing totally different output
2018-11-19T14:49:14Z ManDay: Yeah, I've seen how well this works in practice. Ever noticed how the supposedly "style packages" like beamer end up throwing errors deep in their implementation (because they collided with some other package who happens to redefine shit in a manner that's not anticipated by beamer)? That's exactly the fubar behaviour you get if the underlying language (TeX) doesn't know to distinguish layers of abstraction
2018-11-19T14:49:52Z ecraven: ManDay: that is indeed a problem, but I've rarely (almost never) seen this, and imho this is not a problem in principle, but in implementation
2018-11-19T14:50:05Z ecraven: at least I *can* do this with latex, I cannot do this with md/rst/...
2018-11-19T14:50:10Z qu1j0t3: ^
2018-11-19T14:50:31Z ManDay: i think it is a problem in principle. or rather: a different principle which distinguish content and style in the first place would make such problems inherently impossible (c.f. CSS)
2018-11-19T14:50:38Z qu1j0t3: uhhh
2018-11-19T14:50:39Z ecraven: to me, this is like comparing Scheme to Pascal, saying "the language should rightfully restrict what you can express".
2018-11-19T14:50:43Z qu1j0t3: css does not make those problems impossible
2018-11-19T14:50:54Z qu1j0t3: it's extremely easy to create css where presentation is inextricable
2018-11-19T14:51:12Z ManDay: ecraven: yeah, you can't do that with rst, fair point. but THAT's a problem in implementation, not principle. if the rst compiler could do it, you could style it just fine. it's allowed by rst.
2018-11-19T14:51:29Z ecraven: ManDay: if rst could do all this, it would *be* LaTeX (modulo syntax)
2018-11-19T14:52:01Z ecraven: if you could write macros in rst that expand to rst, that would make it a language, with all the same problems latex has
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2018-11-19T14:52:13Z ManDay: ecraven: No. RST (the spec) has nothing to do with that. It's about the compiler which can take adapted style. you can already do this, of course, for rst2html5
2018-11-19T14:52:41Z ecraven: ManDay: yes, so rst is just *one* language, whereas latex is *any* language you want to make it
2018-11-19T14:52:55Z ManDay: in a sense, yes
2018-11-19T14:53:06Z ManDay: contrary to scheme, it's arse-ugly tho
2018-11-19T14:53:16Z ecraven: that's the point I've been trying to make, that's why I will *always* prefer something like latex to something like rst/md
2018-11-19T14:53:21Z ecraven: ManDay: that's ok, that can be changed
2018-11-19T14:53:36Z ecraven: it's trivial to convert some s-expression-like syntax to (most of) latex
2018-11-19T14:53:58Z ecraven: look at skribe, that I linked up there.. if you don't like latex, just use your own syntax and transpile to it
2018-11-19T14:55:45Z qu1j0t3: then you can generate rst or html or w/e too ;-)
2018-11-19T14:56:58Z ManDay: ecraven: I have no interest in having a powerful language at hand to present content. my top prio is for it to be simple, elegant and readable. rst does that. latex fails in all three categories and skribe probably does better in the elegant and readable dep.
2018-11-19T14:57:23Z ManDay: yes, rst is not powerful. i don't care about that aspect.
2018-11-19T14:57:44Z ecraven: as is your prerogative. I'm just saying, not everyone thinks the same way
2018-11-19T14:57:55Z ManDay: sure
2018-11-19T14:57:57Z ecraven: and "simple, elegant and readable" are all three entirely subjective, imho
2018-11-19T14:58:26Z ManDay: apart from perhaps the elegant, i can hardly imagine you'd disagree comparing latex and rst
2018-11-19T14:58:58Z ecraven: that's not hard.. latex is simple in that it has uniform syntax. almost everything is \foo{..}
2018-11-19T14:59:06Z ecraven: rst is all over the place, how is that "simpler"?
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2018-11-19T15:00:45Z ManDay: fair point. on the other hand, the syntax of latex is not only defined by \foo{} - not only does the language have a lot of more syntax, more importantly: most packages you use in practice deliver their own pile of commands and syntax you need to learn.
2018-11-19T15:01:04Z ecraven: indeed, but almost all of those are \foo{..} too
2018-11-19T15:01:36Z ecraven: in the end, this is the same discussion about syntax that Scheme has... is it better to have uniform syntax, or all those infix operators and whatnot.. opinions just differ on that, I think
2018-11-19T15:02:02Z ManDay: ecraven: just because they all match that very permissive pattern, doesn't make it simpler to me. this were as if I'd say "okay let's take all RST commands and wrap them in %%%RST%%% - now it's simple!"
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2018-11-19T15:02:32Z ecraven: ah, but that wouldn't work, as rst does not actually delimit scope
2018-11-19T15:02:34Z ManDay: to me, it's effectively the amount of things you have to memorize to get things working.
2018-11-19T15:02:35Z ecraven: it's just implicit in the definitions
2018-11-19T15:02:55Z ManDay: true
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2018-11-19T15:03:34Z ecraven: but really, in the end this probably comes down to preference... it's a bit like comparing Scheme or Forth (on the uniform syntax end of the spectrum) to APL or C++ (on the other end)
2018-11-19T15:03:43Z ecraven: both are valid choices, with very different effects
2018-11-19T15:04:41Z ecraven: though this is probably unfair to APL, it actually has very uniform syntax
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2018-11-19T15:05:03Z ecraven: an interesting question, actually, which language has the "most" syntax
2018-11-19T15:06:07Z gwatt: probably c++
2018-11-19T15:06:17Z gwatt: or maybe one of the esolangs
2018-11-19T15:06:24Z ecraven: I can't think of anything that has more than C++ right now
2018-11-19T15:06:33Z gwatt: maybe scala
2018-11-19T15:07:13Z gwatt: wait, it's probably perl6
2018-11-19T15:07:28Z qu1j0t3: heh, dont forget PL/I
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2018-11-19T15:09:31Z ManDay: i think that's actually how C++ standard QA works: Does it have more syntax than anything every seen? Release it!
2018-11-19T15:09:53Z ManDay: god, the horrors that I've seen committted in that language...
2018-11-19T15:10:04Z ecraven: ManDay: thanks for that discussion, it made me realize better what I think about markup languages ;)
2018-11-19T15:10:21Z ManDay: ecraven: ah, yeah, like you despise all but latex? x-D
2018-11-19T15:10:30Z ManDay: no srsly, i get your point
2018-11-19T15:10:37Z ManDay: just as you said: we have different prios there
2018-11-19T15:10:55Z gwatt: https://examples.perl6.org/categories/interpreters/lisp.html
2018-11-19T15:11:09Z ManDay: and truly, latex has more beauty in the programming language sense than rst - that's not at question
2018-11-19T15:11:23Z ManDay: it's just that I don't see rst as a programming lang in the first palce
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2018-11-19T15:12:31Z ecraven: yea, I've just come to see almost every problem as a programming language problem ;D
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2018-11-19T16:01:39Z ManDay: Can we talk about Guile stacktraces, please?
2018-11-19T16:03:20Z rain1: does it not have good stack traces?
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2018-11-19T16:14:12Z lllll: anybody knows how to pass more complicated objects to chez ffi?
2018-11-19T16:14:26Z lllll: for eg. a vector of vectors
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2018-11-19T16:23:36Z oni-on-ion: hmm if containment is arbitrary/abstract, just add another level of loop
2018-11-19T16:24:02Z oni-on-ion: ie (chez:ffi *my-vec*)   -> (dotimes (chez:ffi (aref *my-vec* i))) ....
2018-11-19T16:24:29Z oni-on-ion: this is tongue in cheek please dont take it too serious
2018-11-19T16:25:08Z ecraven: lllll: do you want to create a nested structure as C objects? then you need to foreign-alloc and use foreign-set! and friends to poke your data
2018-11-19T16:26:17Z lllll: ecraven: thanks, that's what i thought. I need something to multiplicate matrices faster
2018-11-19T16:26:49Z ecraven: lllll: which size matrices?
2018-11-19T16:26:57Z ecraven: otherwise, look into the flo:.. procedures
2018-11-19T16:27:06Z ecraven: but chez is slow on floats, as they are all boxed :-/
2018-11-19T16:28:39Z oni-on-ion: what!!
2018-11-19T16:28:48Z oni-on-ion uninstalls
2018-11-19T16:29:56Z ManDay: rain1: At least I'm not able to make sense of them. Any calls into local lambdas are completely omitted. I understand that finding an appropriate textual representation of such closures might be difficult, but Guile just seems to drop them and I can't understand how this is accepted of it.
2018-11-19T16:30:06Z lllll: biggest is about 1024 * 16
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2018-11-19T16:30:11Z lllll: filled with floats
2018-11-19T16:30:26Z ecraven: oni-on-ion: well, "slow", looking at the benchmarks.. but it's not as fast relatively as it is at integer code
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2018-11-19T16:30:56Z rain1: ManDay: well that does suck. chez also has bad stack traces
2018-11-19T16:31:01Z oni-on-ion: ecraven: ohh; philosophical! self benchmarks =) i see that guile is down on the list (from r7rs-benchmark[s]) but it has GOOPS.
2018-11-19T16:31:04Z rain1: i wonder if it can be fixed
2018-11-19T16:31:52Z ecraven: rain1: of course it can, given enough programmer time ;)
2018-11-19T16:33:01Z edw: Can anyone suggest a library development workflow for Chibi? It seems impossible to re-import a library -- or at least its definition -- without killing the REPL and restarting. Not very lispy...
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2018-11-19T16:34:43Z ecraven: edw: it's the same for chez, it is hard to change a loaded library :-/
2018-11-19T16:34:54Z oni-on-ion: WHAT!! *double uninstalls*
2018-11-19T16:35:02Z oni-on-ion sticks with guile.
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2018-11-19T16:35:38Z oni-on-ion: i'll just keep chez around for benchmarks or something. someday racket will be using it as its "real scheme backend" so maybe that would be kewl
2018-11-19T16:36:36Z ecraven: well, once your program has stabilized, chez is blazingly fast at executing it
2018-11-19T16:36:54Z ecraven: for me, it would be best to have *several* r7rs schemes, some that are good at debugging / developping, some that are good at actually running production software, ...
2018-11-19T16:37:14Z ecraven: they'd just need to all be compatible :-/ that's where I'm counting on r7rs-large
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2018-11-19T16:37:17Z ManDay: rain1: If I'd wrap every call (x) into (pk "Exiting" (x (pk "Entering")) I'd get at least something. So the compiler should do at least something along those lines. But it really escapes me how a compiler without proper stacktraces can be touted to have debuggig capabilities
2018-11-19T16:37:49Z rain1: yeah i agree that this is a big problem
2018-11-19T16:38:06Z ManDay: ok, good to hear a confirmation at least
2018-11-19T16:38:10Z rain1: maybe you could make a good example of the problem and send it to the ML, so people can easily reproduce the problem
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2018-11-19T16:38:21Z ManDay: that shouldn't be difficult, yeah
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2018-11-19T16:39:24Z ecraven: lllll: you could just foreign-alloc one array, then poke the values into it in the proper order for C
2018-11-19T16:39:51Z ecraven: unless your C code assumes some other memory layout (which is unlikely, I think)
2018-11-19T16:43:08Z edw: ecraven: Thanks for your thoughts. It makes me feel better that at least I'm not missing some obvious insight.
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2018-11-19T16:45:01Z lllll: ecraven: i guess i will change whole representation to be represented as foreign data
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2018-11-19T21:40:31Z lllll: ecraven: i guess i will change whole representation to be represented as foreign data
2018-11-19T21:41:11Z lllll: you cant pass non-base ftypes
2018-11-19T21:41:25Z lllll: to or from foreign functions
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2018-11-19T21:42:03Z gwatt: you should be able to
2018-11-19T21:43:14Z gwatt: a while ago, courtesy of mflatt, structs/unions are supported as arguments
2018-11-19T21:44:04Z lllll: I get exception: invalid (non-base) foreign-procedure result ftype
2018-11-19T21:44:33Z lllll: when trying to define foreign procedure with some ftype
2018-11-19T21:46:00Z gwatt: what version of chez?
2018-11-19T21:46:07Z lllll: 9.5.1
2018-11-19T21:46:17Z lllll: ok, now i see you neeed to use special form for that
2018-11-19T21:46:44Z lllll: (& ftype)
2018-11-19T21:46:48Z gwatt: ah
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2018-11-19T21:59:07Z rain1: https://www.cs.purdue.edu/homes/rompf/papers/cong-preprint201811.pdf this might be interesting to compiler people
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2018-11-19T22:30:19Z oni-on-ion: can we get some unboxed floats
2018-11-19T22:32:48Z qu1j0t3: then they just rattle around inside the truck
2018-11-19T22:33:15Z oni-on-ion: heheh =)
2018-11-19T22:33:37Z oni-on-ion: also a good point though ty
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2018-11-20T00:18:40Z rain1: hello
2018-11-20T00:30:01Z edw: Greetings.
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2018-11-20T03:26:21Z mejja: rudybot, eval (log (make-rectangular (/ 1. 0.) (/ 1. 0.)))
2018-11-20T03:26:32Z rudybot: mejja: error: with-limit: out of time
2018-11-20T03:26:57Z mejja: rudybot, eval (log +inf.0+inf.0i)
2018-11-20T03:27:01Z rudybot: mejja: your sandbox is ready
2018-11-20T03:27:01Z rudybot: mejja: ; Value: +inf.0+0.7853981633974483i
2018-11-20T03:27:43Z mejja: Riastradh,  (log +inf.0+inf.0i) => ;Value: +nan.0+.7853981633974483i
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2018-11-20T09:31:42Z Riastradh: jcowan: There is a mistake in SRFI 144: flasinh is described as `arcsinh x' rather than `arsinh x', &c.
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2018-11-20T10:24:51Z mejja: Riastradh, Gnu MPC https://gforge.inria.fr/scm/browser.php?group_id=131
2018-11-20T10:25:27Z mejja: http://www.multiprecision.org/mpc/development.html
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2018-11-20T13:13:36Z jcowan: Riastradh: SRFI 144 asinh is intended to do the same thing as the math.h function of the same name, which is defined as "inverse hyperbolic sine".  That's the authoritative definition.
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2018-11-20T14:22:03Z siraben: rudybot:
2018-11-20T14:22:15Z siraben: rudybot, eval (/ 1.7 10)
2018-11-20T14:22:26Z rudybot: siraben: error: with-limit: out of time
2018-11-20T14:22:35Z siraben: Hm
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2018-11-20T14:41:02Z gwatt:  rudybot takes a minute to spin up after idling. dunno why
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2018-11-20T16:35:49Z Riastradh: jcowan: `Inverse hyperbolic sine' is fine.  What's wrong is describing it as `arcsinh', suggesting that it gives the arclength that yielded the specified sinh, rather than the hyperbolic area that yielded the specified sinh.
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2018-11-20T16:43:38Z jcowan: While I concede that some people use arsinh, I am not prepared to defy the uniform usage of all mathematical programming languages hitherto.  I can be pedantic, but not that pedantic.  Arcsinh is blessed by usage.
2018-11-20T16:44:22Z qu1j0t3 googles `normalisation of deviance'
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2018-11-20T16:51:17Z Riastradh: jcowan: Not much usage.  Mostly it gets called `asinh' in procedure names, like you used, like C and C++ use, like Matlab uses, like GNU mpfr and mpc use, like Fortran uses.
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2018-11-20T16:52:10Z Riastradh: R too.
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2018-11-20T16:52:23Z Riastradh: gnuplot
2018-11-20T16:52:41Z Riastradh: boost
2018-11-20T16:53:42Z Riastradh: The three expansions of it that appear in usage are `area of hyperbolic sine', `argument of hyperbolic sine', and `arc of hyperbolic sine', only the first two of which make any sense.
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2018-11-20T18:22:02Z rain1: is there any way to simulate tail calls in javascript without a trampoline?
2018-11-20T18:22:13Z rain1: it has yield and stuff so maybe there's an efficient way with those?
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2018-11-20T18:28:32Z jcowan: rain1: yes, using JS exceptions.  Let me find the reference.
2018-11-20T18:28:44Z rain1: thanks!
2018-11-20T18:29:51Z jcowan: http://www.schemeworkshop.org/2007/procPaper4.pdf is relevant, but not the one I was looking for
2018-11-20T18:30:36Z rain1: https://jcubic.wordpress.com/2014/03/19/using-exceptions-to-simulate-tail-recursion-in-javascript/ I found this, but it seems the author is mistaken
2018-11-20T18:31:48Z Riastradh: Heh.
2018-11-20T18:32:25Z gwatt: try/catch simulate call/cc. That's different from TCO
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2018-11-20T18:35:18Z jcowan: https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/1de0/ccff4fad711ca43637f5c66c43a3e65db140.pdf is about the JVM, but the difference is probably not important
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2018-11-20T20:27:54Z jcowan: ober: That's aeth's baby
2018-11-20T20:28:57Z gwatt: I thought that was scheme on cl
2018-11-20T20:29:06Z wasamasa: cl on scheme sounds comical
2018-11-20T20:29:25Z wasamasa: but maybe someone's mistaking r7rs-large for an cl implementation
2018-11-20T20:29:50Z jcowan: oh, sorry, yes
2018-11-20T20:30:07Z jcowan: I think it's called cl-scheme, hence the confusion
2018-11-20T20:30:20Z ober: r9rs.org large is CL no?
2018-11-20T20:31:15Z jcowan: smh
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2018-11-20T20:33:35Z gwatt: r9rs.org redirects to sbcl, and r8rs.org is taken but unused
2018-11-20T20:33:54Z wasamasa: wow
2018-11-20T20:36:12Z gwatt: looks like we've fallen victim to the classes sequence prediction attack
2018-11-20T20:36:19Z gwatt: classic*, not classes
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2018-11-20T20:39:29Z wasamasa: such bullies
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2018-11-20T20:47:59Z rain1: >r9rs.org redirects to sbcl
2018-11-20T20:48:01Z rain1: lol
2018-11-20T20:48:03Z rain1: who did  this
2018-11-20T20:48:14Z rain1: I don't think we need to continue the RnRS stuf t hough
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2018-11-20T20:56:10Z jcowan: I myself thought the joke was worn out, and that we should find a better name than the Revised Revised Revised Revised Revised Revised Revised Report on the Algorithmic Language Scheme, and wanted a different name for the report, but WG1 decided otherwise.
2018-11-20T20:58:50Z pjb: Be assured that sbcl's people will gladly relinquish the r9rs.org domain when time arrives.
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2018-11-20T21:02:16Z qu1j0t3: for a small sum!
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2018-11-20T21:02:34Z qu1j0t3: (+ 3 4)   ;;; oughta do it
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2018-11-20T21:17:38Z ober: pjb: we'll be on ipv8 by then
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2018-11-20T21:53:46Z mejja: ober, https://github.com/tinysun212/bbn_cl
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2018-11-20T21:59:03Z ecraven: that code looks a lot like MIT/GNU Scheme code
2018-11-20T21:59:10Z ecraven: are they related in any way?
2018-11-20T21:59:42Z Riastradh: Yes.  Some kind of fork.
2018-11-20T21:59:55Z ecraven: which way?
2018-11-20T21:59:58Z Riastradh: No idea!
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2018-11-20T22:00:04Z mejja: also at ai-rep:  http://www.cs.cmu.edu/afs/cs/project/ai-repository/ai/lang/lisp/impl/bbn/0.html
2018-11-20T22:00:09Z ecraven: BBN took MIT's code?
2018-11-20T22:00:19Z mejja: The Butterfly machine me thinks..
2018-11-20T22:00:38Z Riastradh: ecraven: Guessing something like that.  But not sure whether support on the Butterfly was first developed at MIT, or first developed at BBN.
2018-11-20T22:00:49Z ecraven: thanks
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2018-11-20T22:04:33Z ober: mejja: thanks
2018-11-20T22:07:16Z mejja: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BBN_Butterfly
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2018-11-20T22:56:53Z oni-on-ion: AHH! hi so uhm, i see that chicken scheme uses "keyword:" style! http://wiki.call-cc.org/eggref/4/coops
2018-11-20T22:57:59Z ober: don't most schemes?
2018-11-20T22:58:08Z ober: vs :the-Lisp
2018-11-20T22:59:08Z aeth: ober: no
2018-11-20T22:59:10Z oni-on-ion: this would be news to me and also good news =) i've only seen guile which uses "#:keyword" style
2018-11-20T22:59:20Z aeth: ober: It's a fairly even split between :foo, foo:, and #:foo
2018-11-20T22:59:26Z aeth: ober: with #:foo as the apparent winner
2018-11-20T22:59:27Z ober: ahh. good to know
2018-11-20T22:59:42Z gwatt: oni-on-ion: racket uses that same style, but has different semantics
2018-11-20T22:59:49Z ober: and differences between keywords, symbols, and just quoted values
2018-11-20T23:00:20Z rain1: I don't think keywords are good
2018-11-20T23:00:23Z oni-on-ion: gwatt: interesting, i've looked at racket a little but it seems a bit too heavy or large at the moment
2018-11-20T23:00:27Z rain1: thye don't fit cleanly into the overall idea of lisp
2018-11-20T23:00:48Z oni-on-ion: i agree with rain1 . but coming from objective-c , and english, "keyword:" is much more acceptable
2018-11-20T23:01:00Z rain1: I like objective c function calls
2018-11-20T23:01:06Z oni-on-ion: scheme as a lisp-1 with currying would solve most "optional" args
2018-11-20T23:01:06Z aeth: rain1: They work fine in Common Lisp imo. There, keyword arguments are just a plist tail of a lambda-list
2018-11-20T23:01:07Z gwatt: chez scheme has a #: syntax, but it's syntactic sugar for (gensym "foo")
2018-11-20T23:01:14Z oni-on-ion: gwatt: ew !
2018-11-20T23:01:29Z gwatt: Yeah, I'm not sure why
2018-11-20T23:01:36Z oni-on-ion: shift 3 shift ; four keys to begin a keyword. and we complain about emacs shortcuts !??
2018-11-20T23:02:08Z gwatt: yes
2018-11-20T23:02:43Z oni-on-ion: https://wiki.call-cc.org/man/4/Parameters#keyword-style   <-- heh "CL style"
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2018-11-20T23:03:27Z aeth: oni-on-ion: Yes, CL did :foo first and DSSSL did foo: first, and that page recognizes both facts.
2018-11-20T23:03:36Z oni-on-ion: aeth: yeap =) what is DSSSSSL ?
2018-11-20T23:03:37Z aeth: Or at least, the most notable early examples.
2018-11-20T23:03:48Z aeth: oni-on-ion: DSSSL is a better CSS, before CSS.
2018-11-20T23:03:53Z aeth: But it had parentheses so people hated it
2018-11-20T23:04:05Z aeth: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Document_Style_Semantics_and_Specification_Language
2018-11-20T23:04:09Z oni-on-ion: maybe because i learn right-to-left language like hebrew and arabic. but i dont think that is it. :keyword is just something i would go out of my way to avoid
2018-11-20T23:04:21Z gwatt: oni-on-ion: to be fair, '#' and ':' are both on the (US) keyboard, so the cognitive load is only 2 characters
2018-11-20T23:04:28Z oni-on-ion: aeth: ohh! interesting connection.
2018-11-20T23:04:45Z aeth: Yes, it was SGML's CSS-equivalent, and a Scheme
2018-11-20T23:05:02Z oni-on-ion: gwatt: yeah =) side note, i use snoopy-mode in emacs which keeps the numbers 1234567890 shifted by default
2018-11-20T23:05:11Z gwatt: oni-on-ion: in CL at least, :foo is read syntax for 'keyword:foo
2018-11-20T23:05:13Z aeth: DSSSL is also the first place where I encountered "foo:" syntax (reading about DSSSL, not using it, DSSSL and SGML are very dead)
2018-11-20T23:05:33Z oni-on-ion: aeth: ah what? that sounds interesting. CSS is quite declarative, even does animations and a lot of things can be done with just CSS3. very interesting how it did not take off. because now its full of {}'s
2018-11-20T23:05:48Z oni-on-ion: gwatt: ohh - KEYWORD package ?
2018-11-20T23:05:55Z aeth: CSS is incredibly flawed. Few people use it without a preprocessor these days.
2018-11-20T23:05:57Z gwatt: oni-on-ion: Ah, but {} is better than those heathen parenthesis
2018-11-20T23:06:45Z oni-on-ion: heh. HEH. casually i wonder when <> where used to match, where initially they may have been math compare ops. (aside from french <<quotes>>)
2018-11-20T23:07:32Z oni-on-ion: aeth: my interest in it , mostly is fonts and compositing and animations. apple did a lot of work here, which resembles their CoreAnimation/CoreEtc frameworks which i enjoyed working with
2018-11-20T23:07:46Z oni-on-ion: (my positive views on CSS3 that is)
2018-11-20T23:08:35Z aeth: oni-on-ion: My negative view of CSS is influenced by random websites randomly taking up 100% CPU for no reason and me only noticing by hearing a difference in my CPU fan (or the fan running at all, in the case of my laptop)
2018-11-20T23:08:53Z oni-on-ion: o_o not sure that is css[3]
2018-11-20T23:09:08Z gwatt: yeah, is that the javascript?
2018-11-20T23:09:20Z aeth: It's usually CSS animations, or at least it used to be.
2018-11-20T23:09:43Z aeth: People only test in Chrome, so if you use Firefox, you could get terrible CSS.
2018-11-20T23:09:46Z gwatt: I used css to overlay an image on another image. That was a pain
2018-11-20T23:10:05Z oni-on-ion: ahh CSS is fully hardware accel since 2011-2012 time
2018-11-20T23:10:26Z aeth: oni-on-ion: doesn't mean it will function properly
2018-11-20T23:10:29Z oni-on-ion: i've seen whole 3d apps with 90% css , wild stuff
2018-11-20T23:10:39Z oni-on-ion: aeth: sounds like superstition.
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2018-11-20T23:10:56Z oni-on-ion: hardware acceleration is why CSS would be useful in the first place
2018-11-20T23:11:26Z oni-on-ion: compositing and tweening , even though it is a bit amusing to stuff that into style sheets =)
2018-11-20T23:11:38Z oni-on-ion: ohhh gambit scheme actually compiled
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2018-11-20T23:11:52Z aeth: oni-on-ion: It's not superstition. I can (sort of) use the Firefox debugger.
2018-11-20T23:12:41Z oni-on-ion: i am not sure that equates to functioning properly or not
2018-11-20T23:12:44Z oni-on-ion: sry
2018-11-20T23:13:36Z aeth: oni-on-ion: And performance problems or not, this doesn't change the fact that CSS is too simple to be useful and so people usually wind up generating it with tools.
2018-11-20T23:14:05Z gwatt: Ehh
2018-11-20T23:14:11Z oni-on-ion: ok not sure where we are going here
2018-11-20T23:14:23Z oni-on-ion: can't disagree on CSS preprocessors
2018-11-20T23:14:23Z gwatt: For document presentation CSS is fine, and that's where SGML et al came from
2018-11-20T23:14:24Z aeth: My point has always been that DSSSL > CSS
2018-11-20T23:14:33Z aeth: And if you're going to preprocess it anyway...
2018-11-20T23:14:38Z aeth: Why not use real macros?
2018-11-20T23:14:39Z oni-on-ion: ah. from what you've said, i also agree on DSSSSSL > CSSS
2018-11-20T23:15:14Z aeth: https://cranesoftwrights.github.io/resources/color/colorex.htm
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2018-11-20T23:15:23Z aeth: It is a bit weird to see keywords like "this:" though
2018-11-20T23:15:35Z aeth: imo it's uglier to have the :s all uneven
2018-11-20T23:15:41Z aeth: When they're like ":this" the :s all line up
2018-11-20T23:15:57Z aeth: And you can't have "this    : " to get the :s to line up because it's part of the symbol
2018-11-20T23:16:31Z oni-on-ion: heh, true. but cognitively.. =)
2018-11-20T23:16:40Z gwatt: aeth: you can copy xcode, and line the : up anyway?
2018-11-20T23:16:51Z gwatt: which leads to silly looking lines
2018-11-20T23:16:51Z aeth: It's also weird to see "make element" and "make pargaraph" instead of "make-element" and "make-paragraph"
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2018-11-20T23:17:11Z aeth: The indentation also seems wrong from a Lisp perspective, although fortunately they do the )))s
2018-11-20T23:17:38Z aeth: gwatt: well, yeah, you could do "    this:"
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2018-11-20T23:17:51Z gwatt: that's what xcode does
2018-11-20T23:17:55Z aeth: gwatt: might actually be the best style for DSSSL
2018-11-20T23:18:49Z aeth: gwatt: with ":this", though, the way to line things up would be ":this     " which is probably better because you have all left-aligned columns
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2018-11-20T23:19:18Z aeth: (And you don't need to override the editor/IDE's indentation rules)
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2018-11-20T23:20:53Z gwatt shrugs
2018-11-20T23:21:07Z gwatt: I don't have a dog in this fight
2018-11-20T23:23:46Z Zipheir: This ain't a fight, it's a bikeshed.
2018-11-20T23:24:39Z gwatt: In that case, I don't have a bike in this shed
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2018-11-20T23:28:51Z aeth: I'll probably interchangeably support Racket-style #:foo and CL-style :foo
2018-11-20T23:29:03Z aeth: Might not even cost much to support foo:, but then people might use it.
2018-11-20T23:29:36Z gwatt: heh
2018-11-20T23:31:12Z nisstyre: TFW someone you don't know well and thought was a normal person posts about SICP on Facebook
2018-11-20T23:31:25Z nisstyre: (of course I recommended The Little Schemer instead)
2018-11-20T23:31:36Z Zipheir: instead??
2018-11-20T23:31:47Z nisstyre: Zipheir: for a total lisp noob? yeah
2018-11-20T23:31:50Z nisstyre: I think it's an easier introduction
2018-11-20T23:31:52Z aeth: ftfy s/instead/first/
2018-11-20T23:31:55Z Zipheir: Ah, context.
2018-11-20T23:32:17Z nisstyre: HtDP is good but meant more for people who are very new to programming I think
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2018-11-20T23:34:37Z aeth: I'm not sure writing proper software can be taught in a book. You just need to constantly rewrite something to improve it and never settle for what you have right now.
2018-11-20T23:34:58Z nisstyre: aeth: I agree
2018-11-20T23:35:20Z aeth: You also need a language with real macros because eventually you'll reach a limitation in the language and at that point you can either write macros or you can wait for the next version of the language standard (or language implementation if there is no standard)
2018-11-20T23:35:23Z nisstyre: the best book I've read that passes on that intuition is Coders at Work
2018-11-20T23:35:37Z nisstyre: especially the interview with Jamie Zawinski
2018-11-20T23:35:41Z nisstyre: that was my favourite one
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2018-11-20T23:37:16Z Zipheir: Well, the counterpoint to that approach is a more proof-based mathematical view, without which you might turn into a crazy hacker who never stops breaking^H^H^H fiddling with things.
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2018-11-20T23:37:55Z nisstyre: Zipheir: then you turn into ekmett https://github.com/ekmett
2018-11-20T23:38:10Z aeth: Zipheir: That can be solved.
2018-11-20T23:38:29Z aeth: Zipheir: You soon learn, by continually rewriting, that there are some things that you simply should copy and not try to invent.
2018-11-20T23:38:50Z aeth: Zipheir: You rarely need to prove a new algorithm, you usually can just implement it from the given description/pseudocode.
2018-11-20T23:39:09Z nisstyre: yeah most people aren't implementing a consensus protocol or a database
2018-11-20T23:40:15Z aeth: You don't need to prove RK4, you can just look it up online.
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2018-11-20T23:40:19Z Zipheir: aeth: You may not 'need' to be able to prove your programs for a job, but it's invaluable to be able to do so.
2018-11-20T23:41:03Z aeth: Zipheir: Not really, because the things you want to use would probably require at least two years to get the knowledge to prove it. And it could cross several disciplines.
2018-11-20T23:41:20Z aeth: Zipheir: it's not like people in math field A can understand the papers in math field Z
2018-11-20T23:41:36Z nisstyre: Zipheir: it's helpful to know basic stuff like "is this a total or partial function?" and "what are the preconditions/postconditions?"
2018-11-20T23:41:46Z aeth: Zipheir: At some point you have to trust someone else's proof
2018-11-20T23:42:37Z Zipheir: aeth: It depends what kind of programs you're writing, of course.
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2018-11-20T23:43:07Z aeth: Zipheir: If you actually need to prove new things in order to write your program, yes, you need the knowledge and the ability.
2018-11-20T23:43:26Z aeth: Zipheir: If what you're writing is merely a version of something established in your dialect of Lisp, no.
2018-11-20T23:43:45Z Zipheir: aeth: You do know that you can prove theorems about vanilla lisp functions, right? It doesn't neeed to be some abstract name algorithm.
2018-11-20T23:43:52Z Zipheir: s/name/named/
2018-11-20T23:44:22Z Zipheir: aeth: I recommend The Little Prover, btw.
2018-11-20T23:44:41Z aeth: s/of something established in your dialect of Lisp/of something established ported to your dialect of Lisp/
2018-11-20T23:45:31Z nisstyre: Zipheir: it's harder though than in a language like Haskell or SML where it can check if your function is potentially partial (has undefined inputs or outputs), and has a clearer way to define the domain of a function with types, etc etc
2018-11-20T23:45:35Z aeth: Zipheir: Proving programs correct is something that no one has the budget for unless you're doing something like aviation, space, defense, medical devices, etc. (And I'd be scared to know how rare it is there.)
2018-11-20T23:45:51Z aeth: Zipheir: Writing software NASA-style is too slow and expensive if you don't need NASA-level of safety.
2018-11-20T23:45:52Z Zipheir: Look, I know proofs are very very uncool and academic for today's view of CS, but seriously--isn't the value of being able to prove theorems about your work obvious?
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2018-11-20T23:46:03Z nisstyre: aeth: I think they end up using a lot of assertions in their code TBH.
2018-11-20T23:46:32Z nisstyre: https://jaxenter.com/power-ten-nasas-coding-commandments-114124.html
2018-11-20T23:46:51Z nisstyre: you can vastly improve reasonability if you restrict Turing completeness too
2018-11-20T23:46:53Z nisstyre: obviously
2018-11-20T23:47:29Z aeth: Zipheir: But requiring proofs means greatly restricting the supply of programmers to those who can do proofs, which makes software considerably more expensive.
2018-11-20T23:48:00Z nisstyre: some teams at Microsoft make liberal use of techniques like assertions which are pretty low cost IMO
2018-11-20T23:48:02Z nisstyre: and have a huge return
2018-11-20T23:48:05Z aeth: Zipheir: Proof-oriented programming requires someone who knows both mathematics *and* computer science, which is a rare skill. (Computer science by itself isn't rigorous enough, at least imo. Maybe it is at the PhD-level.)
2018-11-20T23:48:15Z Zipheir: aeth: And this is a problem.
2018-11-20T23:48:58Z aeth: Oh, and let me also add that this person needs to also know how to program, which is independent of comp sci.
2018-11-20T23:49:09Z aeth: So it's really the union of three distinct but similar skill sets.
2018-11-20T23:49:11Z Zipheir: EWD: "Universities know that, if they need to teach mathematics to computer science graduates, they might as well close their doors now." So we have inadequately educated programmers.
2018-11-20T23:49:27Z Zipheir: (speaking as an inadequately educated programmer!)
2018-11-20T23:50:00Z nisstyre: I would kill just to have EWD's handwriting skill
2018-11-20T23:50:05Z Zipheir: Hah
2018-11-20T23:50:16Z aeth: Zipheir: But, the thing is, most of those grads are just going to be writing nonsense JavaScript webapps whose performance is ruined before they even start by all of the integrated adtech.
2018-11-20T23:50:26Z aeth: Zipheir: It's not like they're doing anything important.
2018-11-20T23:50:45Z Zipheir: aeth: Bingo :)
2018-11-20T23:52:07Z nisstyre: aeth: not just nonsense JavaScript webapps
2018-11-20T23:52:09Z Zipheir: Well, those people will probably be writing the frontends for tomorrow's Equifax, so maybe it's not so harmless.
2018-11-20T23:52:10Z aeth: (And the rest are doing mobile, with similar workflows and with similar adtech-ruining-everything-before-they-start issues)
2018-11-20T23:52:14Z nisstyre: nonsense JavaScript "serverless" containers
2018-11-20T23:52:20Z nisstyre: and nonsense JavaScript database views
2018-11-20T23:52:26Z nisstyre: and all kinds of nonsense JavaScript everywhere
2018-11-20T23:52:43Z aeth: Zipheir: and backends! full stack!
2018-11-20T23:53:02Z Zipheir: Scary.
2018-11-20T23:53:03Z nisstyre: oh yeah and nonsense JavaScript mobile too
2018-11-20T23:53:06Z nisstyre: (React Native)
2018-11-20T23:53:47Z nisstyre: I have hope for things like Elixir though to gain steam
2018-11-20T23:54:21Z aeth: I have at this point written off both mobile and the Web as hopelessly broken.
2018-11-20T23:54:53Z nisstyre: the web is broken from a technology standpoint, it sucks. Mobile is broken from a privacy standpoint.
2018-11-20T23:54:57Z aeth: Wikipedia is pretty much the only site that uses the Web as a web of interconnected, hyperlinked documents, anyway.
2018-11-20T23:55:06Z Zipheir: Unfortunate that mobile is such garbage. We all know the web sucks.
2018-11-20T23:55:45Z aeth: Mobile is a victim of quantity over quality. Even though "n million apps" has stopped being advertised, we still suffer from that marketing phase.
2018-11-20T23:56:15Z aeth: And, of course, mobile has normalized adware to the point where Microsoft Windows is itself adware when 15 years ago adware was a problem to combat.
2018-11-20T23:56:34Z Zipheir: nisstyre: Although the Web is part of why mobile privacy sucks, e.g. HTML5 extensions to allow things like reading battery status and such.
2018-11-20T23:56:37Z nisstyre: if I were going to start from scratch and design a platform I would base it on technology like NixOS where you can clearly separate things
2018-11-20T23:56:44Z nisstyre: and I would build in privacy from the start
2018-11-20T23:56:52Z nisstyre: of course that's not enticing to people
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2018-11-20T23:57:03Z gwatt: I think android is going in that direction
2018-11-20T23:57:13Z nisstyre: yeah you're right
2018-11-20T23:57:17Z nisstyre: they're using containers I think
2018-11-20T23:57:21Z gwatt: yeah
2018-11-20T23:57:28Z aeth: nisstyre: Imo you need to allow for commercial, proprietary software for a platform to be mainstream (even if you don't yourself use it) so NixOS isn't good and Guix is a complete non-starter.
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2018-11-20T23:57:49Z nisstyre: aeth: well there's nothing stopping you from installing proprietary stuff on NixOS
2018-11-20T23:57:53Z aeth: nisstyre: What people should absolutely not tolerate to any extent is advertisers, especially advertisers who can run arbitrary ads running arbitrary code. That kills security and privacy.
2018-11-20T23:57:57Z nisstyre: you can install prebuilt binaries just fine
2018-11-20T23:58:04Z nisstyre: and I don't think the license is restrictive
2018-11-20T23:59:25Z nisstyre: aeth: yeah, in-app ads seem ok to me, but harvesting information about the users is not
2018-11-20T23:59:34Z Zipheir: aeth: People are so used to this though that they would find it more invasive to have to allow <advertiser>'s script to run than to just run it. Imagine if JS blocking were the default in major browsers--the users would scream.
2018-11-20T23:59:52Z aeth: Imo a modern software platform should have this rule: If it's $0 it's FOSS and ad-free and if it's paid-for it does not have ads. Ads, of course, defined as adtech. You can't completely stop someone from embeding an advertisement in their content. It's the big third parties that are the problem.
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2018-11-21T00:00:43Z aeth: This would stop a race to the bottom with commercial software, too. And anything that's FOSS with ads can just be forked.
2018-11-21T00:01:32Z Zipheir: But as far as the industry is concerned, the only point of a $0 product is ads/data mining, which they don't want forked out of the program.
2018-11-21T00:02:04Z aeth: Which means that you will only have a choice between FOSS and commercial software that ideally does not rely on ads.
2018-11-21T00:02:13Z aeth: Properitary $0 adware will, ideally, be disallowed by strict enough rules.
2018-11-21T00:02:42Z gwatt: then very few people will release $0 apps
2018-11-21T00:02:50Z aeth: And the ones that will be released will be trusted.
2018-11-21T00:03:04Z aeth: Quality over quantity.
2018-11-21T00:03:16Z Zipheir: We can't even get a law passed requiring voting machines to run on FOSS. It seems utopian to expect anyone to follow such a guideline.
2018-11-21T00:03:39Z Zipheir: (i.e. $0 software <=> FOSS)
2018-11-21T00:03:51Z aeth: Zipheir: I'm talking about a new software platform, which, being $0, would be by its own rules FOSS. You could, of course, fork it if you didn't like that rule, but you'd have to fight with network effects.
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2018-11-21T00:04:03Z nisstyre: Zipheir: here in Canada we have this awesome technology called paper
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2018-11-21T00:04:36Z Zipheir: aeth: Hmm.
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2018-11-21T00:04:53Z aeth: Zipheir: The simplest way to actually enforce this would be to break up the "app store". You'd have a store and a FOSS repository, and the store would forbid $0
2018-11-21T00:05:08Z aeth: Minimum price: $0.99
2018-11-21T00:05:12Z qu1j0t3: nisstyre: counterpoint: Doug Ford
2018-11-21T00:05:24Z Zipheir: nisstyre: Our (US) district had paper this election, but the ballot scanners are prob. running blobs.
2018-11-21T00:05:52Z aeth: Zipheir: worse than that, literally anyone would be capable of hacking them
2018-11-21T00:06:07Z Zipheir: ... and that, the security is probably non-existent.
2018-11-21T00:06:10Z aeth: right
2018-11-21T00:06:27Z aeth: I wouldn't even be surprised if they're Windows machines connected to the Internet.
2018-11-21T00:06:45Z aeth: (really old version, too... you can still use embedded XP)
2018-11-21T00:08:33Z aeth: At the very least, though, if there's a paper ballot that's being scanned, there's a paper trail. Add random manual counting and you could potentially detect irregularities that could trigger a full recount.
2018-11-21T00:08:54Z aeth: Actually voting on a machine without scanning a paper and there's no way to detect it.
2018-11-21T00:09:39Z Zipheir: Right, this is why the EFF has been trying to get mandatory paper ballots.
2018-11-21T00:09:50Z aeth: I think in 2008 when I first voted, my state (Maryland) was still using those touchscreen voting machines without scanning, but they got rid of that.
2018-11-21T00:10:23Z aeth: Personally, the scanning doesn't seem much better. This most recent election, they didn't even display the results so you could confirm (I think they used to do that)
2018-11-21T00:11:24Z Zipheir: The US is pretty terrible at elections in general, but anyway.
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2018-11-21T00:15:40Z nisstyre: qu1j0t3: it was still paper, they just use scanners to record the votes and keep the paper ballots in case they need to audit them
2018-11-21T00:15:52Z nisstyre: but the scanners could be hacked I admit
2018-11-21T00:16:36Z zachk: could just fill out fake ballots
2018-11-21T00:17:00Z Riastradh: `Requiring proofs means greatly restricting the supply of programmers to those who can do proofs.'  Proofs aren't black magic -- it doesn't take a PhD to learn to sketch theorems and proofs about programs that lend confidence; there's plenty of value in that far short of writing fully machine-verifiable whole-program proofs in Coq.
2018-11-21T00:17:18Z gwatt: I remember reading about NASA mission critical systems, and how there were multiple contingencies. There would be multiple "failsafes" and the final one was separately implemented
2018-11-21T00:18:43Z Zipheir: Riastradh: Agreed.
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2018-11-21T00:25:02Z jcowan: https://bitbucket.org/cowan/r7rs-wg1-infra/src/default/KeywordSyntax.md shows there ids no winner
2018-11-21T00:25:09Z jcowan: is
2018-11-21T00:26:04Z rain1: I wish there was a really good implementation independent test suite for all the various scheme features
2018-11-21T00:26:16Z rain1: it would help me build my interpreter
2018-11-21T00:28:05Z Riastradh: jcowan: This is why you should declare the foo: :foo #:foo syntax contest a draw and move on to letting Racket semantics win the semantics contest.
2018-11-21T00:28:35Z Riastradh: (P.S.  MIT Scheme supports :foo and foo:, chosen on a per-file basis.)
2018-11-21T00:50:11Z aeth: rain1: the best test so far afaik is https://github.com/ashinn/chibi-scheme/blob/master/tests/r7rs-tests.scm
2018-11-21T00:50:27Z aeth: rain1: being in one file is a bit problematic because some of these things are optional and will fail
2018-11-21T00:50:43Z aeth: rain1: and, of course, who knows if there will be an r7rs-large version or if that's too much work
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2018-11-21T01:17:26Z jcowan: rain1: You could assemble such a suite from the pages linked from https://bitbucket.org/cowan/r7rs-wg1-infra/src/default/ImplementationContrasts.  In some cases, like lexical syntax, you'd have to deal with failures.
2018-11-21T01:18:28Z aeth: that link doesn't work for me
2018-11-21T01:18:43Z jcowan: sorry, append .md
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2018-11-21T01:20:16Z aeth: I'm surprised there is a nil is false and there is a zero, but there's not a zero is false on the zero page, even if the result is that that's not the case in any implementation
2018-11-21T01:21:24Z aeth: That's the source of the "pornographic programming" quote here. http://www-formal.stanford.edu/jmc/history/lisp/node3.html#SECTION00030000000000000000
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2018-11-21T01:21:55Z aeth: "...later proved unfortunate. These included the COND notation for conditional expressions which leads to an unnecessary depth of parentheses, and the use of the number zero to denote the empty list NIL and the truth value false. Besides encouraging pornographic programming, giving a special interpretation to the address 0 has caused difficulties in all subsequent implementations."
2018-11-21T01:22:17Z aeth: This is decades before Scheme but who knows if a Scheme follows that convention?
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2018-11-21T03:03:43Z jcowan: aeth: The *number* 0 has never been false; rather, early implementations used the *address* 0 (spelled NULL in C) to indicate the empty list, false, and the symbol NIL all at once.
2018-11-21T03:05:02Z jcowan: No implementation today does this, because modern OSes generally don't map virtual address 0 to a physical memory page, so that attempts to dereference NULL in C cause the program to crash.
2018-11-21T03:07:11Z jcowan: In principle, a null pointer does not even have to be the same as an all-bits-zero pointer in C, though it almost always is.  C compilers are merely required to turn the number 0 in a pointer context (the only number allowed there) into a null pointer whatever its representation may be.
2018-11-21T03:07:12Z aeth: ah
2018-11-21T03:07:38Z oni-on-ion: =)
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2018-11-21T05:05:05Z fraktor: I'm looking at possibly learning scheme, and I would really like to try making some small "scripts," similar to the way that I use python for a few different things. What's a good scheme implementation (I'm on Fedora linux, so preferrably something in those repositories) that suits this purpose well? Guile seems to be a good fit so far.
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2018-11-21T05:13:13Z aeth: fraktor: The most popular are Racket, Guile, and Chicken. Guile and Chicken are in Fedora. Racket is too big and complicated to ship with Fedora, but it isn't hard to install locally to your home directory. Another somewhat popular one is chibi-scheme, which also isn't in Fedora, but is easy to build. Kawa (in Fedora) runs on the JVM and on Android.
2018-11-21T05:14:26Z fraktor: aeth: Thoughts on Gauche?
2018-11-21T05:14:46Z aeth: Never used it.
2018-11-21T05:15:08Z fraktor: Okay. It looks like it's designed specifically for scripting, so I wondered if it would be popular or not.
2018-11-21T05:15:17Z aeth: I would personally stick to one of the most popular three, or use Kawa if Java interop was necessary.
2018-11-21T05:15:43Z aeth: Writing portable Scheme is very painful (imo) so popularity is an important factor in choosing a Scheme.
2018-11-21T05:15:53Z fraktor: Also, it looks like racket is in the Fedora repositories. So that's another option
2018-11-21T05:16:19Z aeth: wow someone finally solved that packaging nightmare
2018-11-21T05:16:41Z fraktor: there's racket, racket-minimal, and then a few library packages
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2018-11-21T05:17:12Z aeth: It looks like Racket was added in 28 (6ish months ago)
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2018-11-21T05:17:32Z fraktor: But I still think Guile or Chicken would be good. Do you have a preference?
2018-11-21T05:18:07Z aeth: Racket's build history only has 28/29/30 according to https://apps.fedoraproject.org/packages/racket/builds/ so I guess they really did solve packaging it
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2018-11-21T05:19:31Z fraktor: Now that I think about it, I suppose an implementation that's somewhat "batteries included" would be convenient. Nothing too weird, just things that help with command-line flags, json parsing, etc.
2018-11-21T05:19:37Z aeth: fraktor: Racket is big and beginner-oriented like Python and is very popular in academia. Guile is designed as the official scripting language of the GNU project, but few applications until recently were using it as such. Chicken is, well, I'm not sure.
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2018-11-21T05:19:54Z aeth: I think the point of Chicken was to compile to C.
2018-11-21T05:20:12Z aeth: fraktor: Any one of those three should have tons of libraries.
2018-11-21T05:20:19Z aeth: That's why I personally recommend those three.
2018-11-21T05:21:04Z fraktor: Fair enough. Would those be installable libraries, or do they come with large-ish standard libraries?
2018-11-21T05:21:57Z aeth: If I had to guess, Racket would have the largest standard library.
2018-11-21T05:22:09Z aeth: They all have something like cpan/node-js/etc., though.
2018-11-21T05:22:17Z aeth: A more obscure Scheme might not.
2018-11-21T05:22:34Z fraktor: I didn't find an equivalent for Guile, but that doesn't mean it doesn't exist. I'll look for chicken's version.
2018-11-21T05:22:47Z aeth: If you write in a more obscure Scheme you might have to rely on portable libraries called SRFIs (well, writing them might not necessarily be portable, but code that uses them could be). https://srfi.schemers.org/
2018-11-21T05:23:47Z aeth: fraktor: This is years old, but might still be relevant. https://stackoverflow.com/questions/27281429/does-guile-have-a-package-manager
2018-11-21T05:23:54Z aeth: https://github.com/ijp/guildhall
2018-11-21T05:24:06Z aeth: Might not be, though. The SO post is from 2014 and that's from 2015.
2018-11-21T05:24:11Z aeth: I'd ask in #guile
2018-11-21T05:24:16Z fraktor: chicken comes with its own, so I think I'll go with that. I like things to be small, but also easy.
2018-11-21T05:24:21Z fraktor: Wow, I'm a weird Linux user. :P
2018-11-21T05:24:34Z aeth: #guile #racket and #chicken all exist and they're all about the same size (all about half the size of this channel)
2018-11-21T05:24:48Z aeth: Racket and Chicken definitely have integrated package managers.
2018-11-21T05:25:05Z aeth: #guile actually has the largest IRC channel, just barely larger than #racket most of the times that I check.
2018-11-21T05:25:11Z fraktor: Chicken it is. Thanks for your help!
2018-11-21T05:25:20Z aeth: You're welcome
2018-11-21T05:25:45Z aeth: fraktor: thanks for telling me that Fedora finally added Racket
2018-11-21T05:27:13Z aeth: It was an issue for years, since at least 2012. Apparently it is/was really hard to package
2018-11-21T05:28:31Z aeth: (But if you're using Fedora that's no longer a problem for you)
2018-11-21T05:29:51Z aeth: (Now I wonder when they're going to add chibi-scheme...)
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2018-11-21T09:24:44Z ManDay: I'm trying to define a (pure) interator interface which is both convenient to use and allows for derived iterators. I'm not happy with the fact that derived iterators - do you have a better suggestion? https://ideone.com/QywQBF
2018-11-21T09:25:37Z ManDay: Accidentally deleted half of my sentence:
2018-11-21T09:25:51Z ManDay: Meant to say "with the fact that derived iterators have to be called 'doubly'"
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2018-11-21T09:34:25Z ManDay: I guess the best solution would be to parametrize make-iter with an additional argument telling whether the iterator is derived to make it automatically resolve the additional layer? If I stick with a single "increment" function with a single return value (as practical in the underived case), then in the derived case it *must* return some entity which contains the continuation and the value. Since in the derived case the value alone 
2018-11-21T09:34:45Z ManDay: inuation, I need to return a lambda. So there is a difference, necessarily.
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2018-11-21T09:43:40Z ManDay: is there a shorthand for (lambda (x) x), by the way?
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2018-11-21T09:55:37Z bor0: ManDay, `identity`?
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2018-11-21T09:56:55Z ManDay: Well thanks, disappearing man.
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2018-11-21T10:20:02Z ManDay: I've changed that to https://ideone.com/WBB9t9 - the <strip> argument allows for things like cache, too.
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2018-11-21T10:59:53Z nulldata: Test
2018-11-21T11:00:13Z nulldata: There we go, I don't think me previous messages came through, if they did sorry for the duplication:
2018-11-21T11:00:25Z nulldata: Is there anything here who are familiar with the nanopass framework?
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2018-11-21T11:16:10Z jcowan: You definitely want #guile for that.
2018-11-21T11:17:55Z wasamasa: I thought it's a chez thing
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2018-11-21T11:41:00Z ecraven: nulldata: passingly
2018-11-21T11:41:05Z ecraven: asking in #chez is probably the best thing
2018-11-21T11:41:12Z ecraven: or maybe #racket, there is a port iirc
2018-11-21T11:41:28Z ecraven: but - as always on irc - don't ask to ask, just ask!
2018-11-21T11:51:37Z ecraven: hm.. just starting to finally look into docker seriously, do we have a curated list of Dockerfiles for all the various Schemes? that seems like it would be a good thing to have at some point?
2018-11-21T11:51:50Z ecraven: I'll need to look into this in order to make the benchmarks more portable too, I think
2018-11-21T12:14:26Z jcowan: sorry, I meant #chez of course
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2018-11-21T12:16:31Z jcowan: No, we don't, and I would love to have them.  https://bitbucket.org/cowan/r7rs-wg1-infra/src/default/ImplementationContrasts.md lists the Schemes that I successfully installed on Linux during WG1 for testing purposes, with links to their home pages.  There are a few notes on some difficult-to-install varieties: if it depended on something other than C/C++, I excluded it for reasons of laziness.
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2018-11-21T12:22:03Z ecraven: jcowan: I'll try what  i
2018-11-21T12:22:13Z ecraven: I can, once I am more familiar with docker
2018-11-21T12:22:39Z ecraven: but the chicken vs. mono conflict (/usr/bin/csc is claimed by both) means I have to handle this in some way anyway, and docker seems like a decent solution
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2018-11-21T12:50:26Z jcowan: Which of course matters if you are going to install IronScheme in particular, though there is no real reason to build it from source.  I just put Chicken in /usr/local where it hides Mono's.
2018-11-21T12:51:09Z jcowan: If you have trouble running IronScheme, use the undocumented -emacs switch to get a vanilla terminal experience, though that suppresses the prompt.
2018-11-21T13:00:49Z ManDay: Is there nothing like argmax in the base or std lib?
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2018-11-21T13:23:01Z lllll: stdlib?
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2018-11-21T13:24:14Z ecraven: jcowan: thanks, I'll keep that in mind. I'll try to start on some docker images asap ;)
2018-11-21T13:27:31Z ManDay: lllll: ?
2018-11-21T13:30:09Z lllll: what stdlib
2018-11-21T13:31:46Z ManDay: rXrs
2018-11-21T13:32:10Z ManDay: like... http://www.r6rs.org/final/html/r6rs-lib/r6rs-lib-Z-H-1.html#node_toc_start
2018-11-21T13:33:55Z lllll: ok, sorry
2018-11-21T13:36:38Z lllll: there is only max i  think
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2018-11-21T13:38:54Z ManDay: max is a special case of (argmax identity somelist) :-/
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2018-11-21T13:52:27Z lllll: when profiling scheme programs you can create custom syntax for define, and count executions with some variable
2018-11-21T13:52:56Z lllll: but how to count the time of each execution?
2018-11-21T13:53:51Z lllll: would be more helpful in locating bottlenecks
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2018-11-21T13:56:25Z ManDay: wrap it! don't question the beauty of it!
2018-11-21T13:56:57Z ManDay: (x) -> (call-with-timing (x start-timer))
2018-11-21T13:57:22Z ManDay: It's not guaranteed to make any sense, but since when is profiling supposed to make sense anyhow
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2018-11-21T14:08:05Z ogamita: Write an eval doing that recursively for the subexpressions.
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2018-11-21T14:24:05Z lllll: writing custom eval seems like an overkill
2018-11-21T14:24:15Z lllll: ill try to write a wrapper
2018-11-21T14:25:28Z ManDay: I don't wanna be a pain, but it is reaaallly questionable how much insight such a timing will yield
2018-11-21T14:26:54Z ManDay: i have no clue about the capabilities of scheme implementations out there, but if they do just any optimization at all, like detect independent/parallel branches or the like, it ends up heavily depending on what exactly it is that you're trying to measure and how the compiler deals with it
2018-11-21T14:27:59Z ManDay: you might be lucky, but you might also just get completely meaningless results or stuff which would turn out very different for a different impl.
2018-11-21T14:29:18Z lllll: just trying to understand why my program is so slow, especially compared to a python code doing almost exactly the same thing
2018-11-21T14:29:27Z ManDay: i mean, performant implementations is all good and i general comparison like chez does XYZ m-times faster than racket or so in all honour, but scheme isn't about speed.
2018-11-21T14:29:58Z ManDay: lllll: well, the worst thing that can happen is that the result you get don't make any sense
2018-11-21T14:30:19Z ManDay: or you might find that the python compiler does a much better optimization
2018-11-21T14:30:26Z ManDay: good luck anyway!
2018-11-21T14:31:26Z lllll: thanks
2018-11-21T14:33:28Z lllll: i thought it's a problem with vectors containing floating numbers
2018-11-21T14:34:25Z lllll: with ffi i got a major speed up, but only with vectors much larger than the ones im using
2018-11-21T14:36:41Z lllll: with the matrices im using plain scheme is faster than translating back and forth with ffi
2018-11-21T14:51:00Z lllll: but then again -- python with numpy abstracting only matrix operations is orders of magnitude faster
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2018-11-21T14:58:04Z qu1j0t3: isn't that because numpy has a C kernel?
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2018-11-21T15:01:55Z ManDay: yeah, numpy being one of the most widely used high level numerics lib is way above any league, not to mention schemes
2018-11-21T15:02:09Z ManDay: linear algebra.... forget it
2018-11-21T15:02:16Z ManDay: you won't even get close to their perf
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2018-11-21T15:35:06Z ManDay: What's the simplest way to repeat a side-effect N times? I was thinking (for-each foo! list-of-N) but how do I create an arbitrary list of N elements?
2018-11-21T15:36:49Z ManDay: hm, guile has (make-list)
2018-11-21T15:37:23Z ogamita: ManDay: (dotimes (i n) (side-effect))
2018-11-21T15:37:53Z ManDay: that's not in r6rs either
2018-11-21T15:38:05Z ManDay: what's that i anyway?
2018-11-21T15:38:39Z ogamita: Sorry, indeed, it's not in r5rs.
2018-11-21T15:38:48Z ogamita: You'd have to use do or named let.
2018-11-21T15:39:32Z ogamita: (do ((i n (- i 1))) ((<= i 0)) (side-effect))
2018-11-21T15:39:54Z ogamita: or define a syntax for dotimes expanding to that do.
2018-11-21T15:41:22Z ogamita: ManDay: you can also write a higher order function similar to for-each.  (define (repeat n what) (if (< 0 n) (begin (what) (repeat (- n 1))))) (repeat n foo!)
2018-11-21T15:41:47Z ManDay: ogamita: yeah thanks but writing the function is not my problem
2018-11-21T15:41:58Z ManDay: i was just looking for the most convenient way. make-list will do
2018-11-21T15:42:23Z ogamita: Not's not convenient and nice to create big data structures just to loop over their sizes!
2018-11-21T15:42:58Z ManDay: :-P
2018-11-21T15:43:16Z ogamita: Next, repeat is convenient if you need to repeat only a procedure call.   dotimes is more convinient if you have several expressions to repeat, which is often the case for side effects.
2018-11-21T15:43:51Z ManDay: I'm really just debugging some stuff here, no worries
2018-11-21T15:43:55Z ManDay: it's not part of my code ;)
2018-11-21T15:44:09Z ogamita: ok.
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2018-11-21T16:05:20Z ManDay: guile backtraces are such a useless junk, gnaaa
2018-11-21T16:05:48Z ManDay: not sure whether all guile developers always right bug-free programs right from the start or whether they don't use guile at all
2018-11-21T16:05:58Z ManDay: in any case, no one in their right mind can be happy with this
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2018-11-21T16:18:14Z wasamasa: have you asked on the mailing list yet?
2018-11-21T16:18:56Z ManDay: nope
2018-11-21T16:19:23Z wasamasa: you know what to do :>
2018-11-21T16:19:34Z wasamasa: from what I've seen, it's decent
2018-11-21T16:19:42Z wasamasa: not too much traffic and helpful replies
2018-11-21T16:19:53Z wasamasa: much like the one for my preferred scheme :D
2018-11-21T16:20:02Z wasamasa: and don't worry, it doesn't even have backtraces
2018-11-21T16:20:07Z ManDay: heh
2018-11-21T16:20:08Z wasamasa: only calltraces
2018-11-21T16:20:13Z ManDay: wait
2018-11-21T16:20:26Z ManDay: what's the difference?
2018-11-21T16:20:37Z wasamasa: backtraces are hierarchical, calltraces are a flat list
2018-11-21T16:21:04Z wasamasa: so they are harder to make sense of and require a larger size for analysis
2018-11-21T16:21:45Z ManDay: so what is a calltrace? a -> b -> c -> d ? How is that not a backtrace?
2018-11-21T16:21:56Z wasamasa: no, you see a flat list of the last calls
2018-11-21T16:22:09Z wasamasa: as opposed to a tree where you see which call made which one
2018-11-21T16:22:11Z ManDay: yeah that's about the info I get from guile backtraces, too
2018-11-21T16:22:38Z ManDay: it's like local lambdas or named lets are too dificult to backtrace or display as such
2018-11-21T16:22:51Z wasamasa: so in java I get a tree or two, in CHICKEN I get a list of function calls
2018-11-21T16:23:00Z wasamasa: and can configure how long the list is
2018-11-21T16:23:11Z ManDay: wasamasa: now you lost me again
2018-11-21T16:23:20Z wasamasa: well, I just named two examples
2018-11-21T16:23:31Z ManDay: if I see a flat list of last calls, what's the order of that list if not the order in which one called the next?
2018-11-21T16:23:57Z wasamasa: well, you're not accounting for things such as loops
2018-11-21T16:24:28Z ManDay: you mean recursion?
2018-11-21T16:24:34Z ManDay: i always write pure, anything else doesn't really bother me
2018-11-21T16:25:12Z wasamasa: in the tree I can deduce what called the failing part until the root cause, in the list I just see function calls that were called before that
2018-11-21T16:25:50Z ManDay: wasamasa: can I give you a short snippet and you paste me your output?
2018-11-21T16:25:51Z wasamasa: since a let-binding isn't a function call, I don't see that either
2018-11-21T16:26:14Z ManDay: wasamasa: not the binding, but the recursion, i presume
2018-11-21T16:27:08Z wasamasa: well, I'd have to come up with an academic, but relevant example first :P
2018-11-21T16:27:21Z ManDay: https://ideone.com/VdbCzn
2018-11-21T16:27:25Z ManDay: this one is entirely relevant to me
2018-11-21T16:27:27Z wasamasa: what I'm comparing from memory are logs from web services, the scheme ones are useless compared to the clojure ones
2018-11-21T16:27:32Z oni-on-ion: i think perhaps what wasamasa refers to is called the Source Code.
2018-11-21T16:27:34Z ManDay: i mean... the error on ideone is even more telling than what i get in 2.2
2018-11-21T16:28:14Z edw: ManDay: Regarding your iterators question, you may want to skim through this thing I wrote back in '05. I wrote a sample generator implementation and then converted it to a macro in an effort to explain why non-Lisps are a waste of one's time: https://gist.github.com/edw/0cdab06e0bd845460b9e18cab5bd3f4c
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2018-11-21T16:29:46Z wasamasa: https://ptpb.pw/oS4_
2018-11-21T16:29:54Z wasamasa: this is CHICKEN for you
2018-11-21T16:31:14Z ManDay: wasamasa: infinitely better than what I get from guile!
2018-11-21T16:31:17Z ManDay: thanks
2018-11-21T16:31:24Z wasamasa: also, for better debugging you'll want to do something more standard than pk
2018-11-21T16:31:38Z wasamasa: and not use []
2018-11-21T16:31:49Z wasamasa: this keeps me from testing it in kawa
2018-11-21T16:31:54Z ManDay: edw: Thanks, I'm happy with my "strip" solution right now, but I'll have a look maybe I can learn something from it
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2018-11-21T16:32:07Z ManDay: wasamasa: say what?
2018-11-21T16:33:24Z wasamasa: https://ptpb.pw/yJJQ
2018-11-21T16:33:56Z wasamasa: I'd expect racket to be best in this
2018-11-21T16:34:09Z wasamasa: ManDay: pk is undefined, [] is implementation-defined
2018-11-21T16:34:27Z ManDay: wasamasa: is it tho?
2018-11-21T16:34:29Z wasamasa: ManDay: to test this error you could just replace pk with display
2018-11-21T16:34:38Z ManDay: says in r6rs <> and [] and () are all valid delims
2018-11-21T16:35:04Z wasamasa: this won't get you far when testing with other schemes, considering the lack of r6rs implementations
2018-11-21T16:35:09Z ManDay: wasamasa: those pk are just for debugging ofc
2018-11-21T16:35:19Z wasamasa: sure, but since it isn't even called, you could omit it
2018-11-21T16:35:30Z wasamasa: the error happens when evaluating its argument
2018-11-21T16:35:30Z ManDay: what?
2018-11-21T16:35:49Z ManDay: nvm
2018-11-21T16:36:06Z wasamasa: if a scheme evaluates the argument first, the missing definition for pk isn't an issue, however if it does, then you have to fix that first
2018-11-21T16:41:56Z wasamasa: I've compared guile 2.2 and 2.0 and see what you mean
2018-11-21T16:42:09Z wasamasa: but hey, at least you get some arguments displayed, I don't get any displayed
2018-11-21T16:42:18Z wasamasa: this is considered a better, not worse thing
2018-11-21T16:42:54Z wasamasa: in guile 1.8 I don't even get a backtrace, just a single error line
2018-11-21T16:44:38Z ManDay: dude
2018-11-21T16:44:52Z ManDay: let me paste you what *I* get from guile, and you'll understand my frustration!!!
2018-11-21T16:45:16Z wasamasa: !!!
2018-11-21T16:45:20Z ManDay: !!!!!111
2018-11-21T16:47:51Z ManDay: https://ideone.com/mYR9Cm <- guile2.2 output is in the notes on the right hand
2018-11-21T16:48:57Z ManDay: And I'm just ignoring the fact that it thinks this file is "unknown" for now
2018-11-21T16:50:02Z wasamasa: I recommend you to not use that service then
2018-11-21T16:50:13Z ManDay: which service?
2018-11-21T16:50:22Z wasamasa: ideone
2018-11-21T16:50:31Z wasamasa: because no, I cannot reproduce this
2018-11-21T16:50:43Z wasamasa: it's a mystery to me why you'd use them anyway
2018-11-21T16:50:43Z ManDay: you misunderstand: I just used ideone to paste
2018-11-21T16:51:00Z ManDay: look at the "nodes" on the right, there i pasted the guile2.2 output
2018-11-21T16:51:19Z ManDay: let me make this clearer
2018-11-21T16:52:11Z ManDay: Code: https://ideone.com/VmSZYM  Error: https://ideone.com/XGo3Gd
2018-11-21T16:53:01Z wasamasa: https://ptpb.pw/vQ6V
2018-11-21T16:54:05Z wasamasa: guile 2.2.4 here
2018-11-21T16:56:21Z wasamasa: so who knows, maybe a update will fix it
2018-11-21T16:58:04Z oni-on-ion: guile 2.9.1 says "<unnamed port>:21:4: Wrong type to apply: ((10 . 23) (15 . 19)) "
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2018-11-21T17:02:45Z ManDay_: Sorry webchat kicked me out
2018-11-21T17:02:47Z ManDay_: gotta run anyway
2018-11-21T17:02:59Z ManDay_: but you're right it looks better in the newer version
2018-11-21T17:03:11Z ManDay_: i'll hope an upgrade will improve the situation
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2018-11-21T17:03:24Z ManDay_: thanks, talk to y'all later
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2018-11-21T17:11:15Z ManDay: still got a few minutes, i learned
2018-11-21T17:11:29Z ManDay: fwiw, i get the same error now. god knows what happend or what i did wrong
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2018-11-21T17:20:09Z oni-on-ion: same as ? missing a . between?
2018-11-21T17:20:45Z ManDay: same as wasamasa
2018-11-21T17:21:15Z ManDay: the mistake, yeah... that was a paren to many... should be (du x b) and was (du (x b))
2018-11-21T17:21:32Z oni-on-ion: ah
2018-11-21T17:21:36Z ManDay: i get the same errors as wasamasa after I fixed *that* - not sure how he got that error without fixing it
2018-11-21T17:21:53Z oni-on-ion: he may have typed it by hand and subconsciously added
2018-11-21T17:21:55Z ManDay: anyway, kind of solved until the next backtrace that I can't parse ^^
2018-11-21T17:22:00Z ManDay: i suppose
2018-11-21T17:22:13Z oni-on-ion: really liking chicken over here
2018-11-21T17:22:36Z ManDay: yeah, i'll have a look. i tried racket a few days ago but those backtraces were almost worse
2018-11-21T17:22:55Z ManDay: (maybe i didn't use it properly, i admit i just a quick shot at it)
2018-11-21T17:23:39Z oni-on-ion: wasamasa says chicken backtrace isnt so good, i think, and i cant speak for that aspect of it
2018-11-21T17:24:58Z oni-on-ion: i've always liked guile, i was also looking at Chez because racket will be using that as its core anyway (so i'd call it racket-style chez, then?)
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2018-11-21T17:29:10Z confusedwanderer: racket looks like this: https://ptpb.pw/iPNv
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2018-11-21T17:34:59Z oni-on-ion: hm that looks nice imo
2018-11-21T17:36:09Z confusedwanderer: not too bad I think
2018-11-21T17:36:18Z confusedwanderer: Chez looks like this: Exception: attempt to apply non-procedure ((10 . 23) (15 . 19))
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2018-11-21T17:38:42Z confusedwanderer: with chez you can also --debug-on-exception, which puts you in the debugger when the error happens
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2018-11-21T17:42:09Z oni-on-ion uses geiser
2018-11-21T17:44:09Z ecraven: I still haven't found any Scheme that gets even remotely close to CL for debuggability :-/
2018-11-21T17:44:28Z ecraven: MIT isn't half bad, most others I don't know well enough
2018-11-21T17:44:40Z Riastradh: printf goes a long way in a pinch.
2018-11-21T17:45:31Z Riastradh: Sometimes printf isn't available, in which case you may have to descend to hammering on the right CPU output port to make the system console beep.
2018-11-21T17:45:41Z Riastradh: ...wait, what channel am I in?
2018-11-21T17:45:57Z oni-on-ion: mhm; never myself needed so much debugging, perhaps because i spend that time in making sure of the code. which as a side effect causes the benefit of "becoming" the compiler
2018-11-21T17:46:10Z oni-on-ion: #raspi ?
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2018-11-21T18:39:05Z edw: FYI Chibi bug write-up: <https://gist.github.com/edw/0c3764cd7af7f926bef291ead34a2d8d>.
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2018-11-21T20:38:38Z lllll: in (lambda (x) a b c) are a, b and c evaluated sequentially?
2018-11-21T20:38:45Z rain1: yeah
2018-11-21T20:38:49Z rain1: it has an implicit BEGIN
2018-11-21T20:39:01Z lllll: thx
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2018-11-21T20:44:23Z jcowan: lllll: But that only makes sense if a and b are procedure calls invoked for their effects
2018-11-21T20:44:48Z lllll: yes
2018-11-21T20:50:56Z aeth: An easy way to find out if a form has an implicit begin is to put print procedure calls in them and see if they run. Alternatively, do it first with a begin and then remove the begin and see if it makes a difference.
2018-11-21T20:51:10Z rain1: or check the spec :P
2018-11-21T20:51:27Z aeth: rain1: only if it's in the spec
2018-11-21T20:51:39Z rain1: it is
2018-11-21T20:51:50Z aeth: Yes, my method is a general method, though.
2018-11-21T20:51:58Z rain1: your method is completely idiotic
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2018-11-21T20:53:26Z aeth: Sure, placing noticable side effect procedure calls to see if noticable side effect procedure calls happen is idiotic.
2018-11-21T20:54:58Z aeth: You learn a Lisp by exploring in the REPL with simple test cases. Even when it's documented, it's often faster.
2018-11-21T20:55:29Z wasamasa: just put more than one thing in it
2018-11-21T20:55:44Z wasamasa: if it's an error, there is no implicit begin
2018-11-21T20:56:10Z gwatt: Sometimes things are variadic, that's not always going to work
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2018-11-21T20:57:48Z gwatt: Sorry, that reads awkwardly. Sometimes syntax will have multiple "arguments" that are processed by the macro but do not end up in the runtime.
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2018-11-21T20:58:50Z gwatt: Or maybe they are in the runtime but have other affects.
2018-11-21T20:58:56Z gwatt: like syntax-case guard forms
2018-11-21T20:59:10Z aeth: M-. in Emacs can be a good hint if there's no documentation or the documentation is weak. Not even necessarily thoroughly reading the source. e.g. If you see a variable named "body" that's probably saying it has an implicit begin
2018-11-21T20:59:42Z aeth: The lack of a binding called body doesn't mean that it doesn't have one, though.
2018-11-21T21:01:27Z Riastradh: rain1: Testing the response of a system to an impulse is a pretty foundational engineering technique!  I don't think it's fair to call someone idiotic for suggesting that when confronted with an unfamiliar system.  Obviously doing that _exclusively_ is pretty stupid, but I don't think aeth was advocating eschewing all documentation in favour of doing science on things.
2018-11-21T21:01:43Z Riastradh: Excuse me, to call someone an idiot, by way of calling their methods idiotic.
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2018-11-21T21:04:22Z aeth: Ime never trust the documentation to correctly describe a system. Sure, read it as a hint, but then verify it with test cases and (if you can read it... implementations can have messy internals, so this is more of a library thing) read the source.
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2018-11-21T21:05:43Z aeth: Of course, when it comes to language implementations 99 times out of 100 it will be an error on your end, not the implementation's, and the remaining case, you'll have found the problem through a much more elaborate investigation (such as reading the generated assembly).
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2018-11-21T21:21:29Z Zipheir: Although doing things a certain way because and only because it worked the last 5 times gets you a free membership in a cargo cult.
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2018-11-21T22:44:14Z aeth: Zipheir: that's why you need to know 10 ways to do something and be flexible
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2018-11-22T00:08:10Z noobly: in the little schemere, there is a function as such: (define even? (lambda (n) (= (* (/ n 2) 2) n))). SO, because (* (/ n 2) 2) alwasy equals n, I've come to the conclusion that this either errata, a quirk of a specific scheme dialect. I'm using guile.. any help here?
2018-11-22T00:12:34Z qu1j0t3: noobly: it's not true when / is integer division
2018-11-22T00:12:58Z qu1j0t3: noobly: which you can check in any scheme by evaluating (/ 1 2)
2018-11-22T00:13:44Z noobly: qu1j0t3: just checked and it evaluates to 1/2, I suppose finding the integer division function for guile will fix my problems
2018-11-22T00:13:48Z qu1j0t3: yeah
2018-11-22T00:14:00Z qu1j0t3: in Chicken it is also floating point division, so that definition wouldn't work there either
2018-11-22T00:14:16Z noobly: thanks
2018-11-22T00:14:22Z qu1j0t3: np, well spotted
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2018-11-22T00:16:08Z noobly: yeah I spent about an hour thinking it was a parenthetical error in a function that utilizes "evens?" since my results were all wrong lol
2018-11-22T00:18:01Z qu1j0t3: :)
2018-11-22T00:18:18Z qu1j0t3: i wonder if that's ever been footnoted in a newer edition
2018-11-22T00:18:55Z noobly: i tried looking around the web (thinking it was an obvious error) but didnt pull anything up
2018-11-22T00:20:02Z noobly: (= (modulo n 2) 0) it is then! thanks again
2018-11-22T00:20:07Z qu1j0t3: exactly
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2018-11-22T00:21:45Z aeth: (/ n 2) should give you n/2 so e.g. (/ 5 2) will give you 5/2
2018-11-22T00:22:01Z aeth: The dialect in The Little Schemer must be really, really old
2018-11-22T00:22:45Z aeth: (Note that it will only give you a rational if it's an integer. If it's a floating point it will give you a floating point, so (/ 5.0 2) will give you 2.5)
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2018-11-22T00:23:32Z aeth: (Note also that my defintion will apply if it is even because writing the literal 10/2 will give you 5 as the result.)
2018-11-22T00:24:06Z aeth: Your implementation might have a way to do integer division, though.
2018-11-22T00:24:22Z qu1j0t3: modulo is equally good, or arguably better
2018-11-22T00:24:38Z aeth: e.g. in Common Lisp, FLOOR has an optional divisor argument so the first result of (floor 5 2) is 2
2018-11-22T00:25:00Z aeth: If that is in Scheme, it's probably a different name in every Scheme, with or without the optional second argument of the remainder (in this case 1)
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2018-11-22T00:27:38Z lllll: or you can use div
2018-11-22T00:27:44Z lllll: instead of /
2018-11-22T00:29:13Z lllll: sorry, it's not in guile
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2018-11-22T00:47:54Z Riastradh: aeth: Pretty much everything supports quotient for truncating division.
2018-11-22T00:48:04Z Riastradh: rudybot: eval (quotient 5 2)
2018-11-22T00:48:15Z rudybot: Riastradh: error: with-limit: out of time
2018-11-22T00:48:20Z Riastradh: ???
2018-11-22T00:48:21Z Riastradh: rudybot: eval (quotient 5 2)
2018-11-22T00:48:23Z rudybot: Riastradh: your r5rs sandbox is ready
2018-11-22T00:48:23Z rudybot: Riastradh: ; Value: 2
2018-11-22T01:06:34Z aeth: Riastradh: Pretty much everything should support it, but I wouldn't be surprised if a Scheme does not. It looks like it wouldn't follow r5rs or r7rs, though.
2018-11-22T01:06:50Z aeth: It looks like floor/ in r7rs behaves like floor in Common Lisp
2018-11-22T01:07:08Z aeth: (the difference is that the second argument isn't implicitly 1 if not provided, and is required)
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2018-11-22T01:08:33Z aeth: (if missing argument errors aren't portable, then you could turn floor/ into a direct copy of CL's floor with the second argument turned into an optional with the default value of 1)
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2018-11-22T01:14:07Z Riastradh: quotient has been there since probably the R3RS or so.
2018-11-22T01:14:36Z Riastradh: aeth: Common Lisp's floor is also designed under the assumption that extra return values get ignored.
2018-11-22T01:15:16Z Riastradh: http://people.csail.mit.edu/jaffer/r3rs_8.html#SEC50
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2018-11-22T01:59:08Z Riastradh: aeth: https://dspace.mit.edu/bitstream/handle/1721.1/5600/AIM-848.pdf?sequence=2#page=39
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2018-11-22T02:03:02Z Riastradh: T had it since 3.0 <https://people.csail.mit.edu/riastradh/t/tman.pdf#page=58>; MIT Scheme has had it since 1986, and probably earlier, but the git log doesn't go back any further than that.
2018-11-22T02:03:19Z Zipheir: The fourth edition of The Little Schemer doesn't use / and gives a definition that is basically equivalent to quotient. (p. 75)
2018-11-22T02:04:34Z Zipheir: So noobly must have a really old edition or something.
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2018-11-22T02:15:47Z aeth: I'm glad they fixed it.
2018-11-22T02:16:26Z aeth: The numeric tower at this point is a pretty key point of anything that should call itself a Lisp imo
2018-11-22T02:17:37Z jcowan: True, although Scheme's tower is not isomorphic with Common Lisp's, and Pure has one too.
2018-11-22T02:18:02Z Zipheir: In general the Little books define their own procedures (beyond the very basics) and don't rely on weird implementation details.
2018-11-22T02:18:40Z Zipheir: So I'm curious as to whether it's actually written with / in older editions...
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2018-11-22T08:32:24Z decent-username: Does cons in Scheme work differntly than the cons in Common Lisp?
2018-11-22T08:32:43Z ecraven: cons creates new pairs in either
2018-11-22T08:33:04Z decent-username: I don't seem to be able to cons a number to nil. (cons 1 nil)
2018-11-22T08:33:33Z ecraven: ah, cons works fine, but there is no NIL in Scheme
2018-11-22T08:33:35Z ecraven: (cons 1 '())
2018-11-22T08:33:44Z decent-username: ohhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh
2018-11-22T08:33:54Z decent-username: ok :)
2018-11-22T08:33:55Z ecraven: (define nil '()) if you want, but that won't always work ('nil is still a symbol, not the empty list)
2018-11-22T08:34:10Z ecraven: Scheme separates #f from '() (and neither of them is calle d
2018-11-22T08:34:12Z ecraven: called NIL)
2018-11-22T08:34:51Z decent-username: thanks for clarifying
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2018-11-22T08:41:07Z aeth: there can be a nil (equivalent to '()) there just usually isn't
2018-11-22T08:42:06Z ecraven: aeth: how would you make that self-evaluating?
2018-11-22T08:42:10Z ecraven: (without special compiler support)
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2018-11-22T08:43:37Z aeth: ecraven: I suspect that it's implementation-specific behavior that is in some implementations for compatibility with older Lisps.
2018-11-22T08:43:57Z ecraven: aeth: interesting, I don't think I've seen this.. which implementation did you see this in?
2018-11-22T08:44:04Z aeth: I've seen it in Scheme code.
2018-11-22T08:44:13Z aeth: I worked around it with (define nil '()) of course
2018-11-22T08:45:10Z aeth: Someone here probably knows which implementations have a nil as empty list, if any.
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2018-11-22T08:49:53Z aeth: It has been a while so I don't recall the details, only the workaround to get the code to run.
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2018-11-22T09:36:47Z decent-username: SICP is super fun :3
2018-11-22T09:37:16Z decent-username: it's a joy to read and play around with the exercises inside the repl. Life if good.
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2018-11-22T12:40:28Z edw: aeth: You're not the first person I've encountered that wants the SICP, Little Schemer, el al. code to run. Perhaps it's due to me growing up in a simpler time when code came in the form of printed books and magazines, but I've always thought the way to get the code from these books running is by typing it in. Similarly, the H-P lectures are perfect to me, because you can follow along and type at your REPL as S&A write code on the
2018-11-22T12:40:28Z edw: chalkboard.
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2018-11-22T13:21:07Z ogamita: edw: well, some of those old books had the code available thru ftp (or bitnet/ftp gateways) already a long time ago.  Floppies and the web came later.
2018-11-22T13:22:55Z ogamita: Unfortunately, the learning experience you have when you write down what you learn is apparently not replicated when you type it down.  There seem to be something more mechanical to typing compared to writing by hand.
2018-11-22T13:29:50Z jcowan: T and nil were not removed as standard parts of Scheme until R4RS, though R3RS notes that only some implementations provide them.  They were bound to #t and #f, of course; 't and 'nil never worked in Scheme.
2018-11-22T13:30:39Z jcowan: And it is only in the IEEE standard (between R4 and R5) that the separation of #f and () becomes definitive, though R4RS warns against relying on it.
2018-11-22T13:32:52Z jcowan: s/worked/were anything but symbols
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2018-11-22T14:30:42Z lllll: how can you abstract macro templates when they contain ellipses?
2018-11-22T14:31:08Z rain1: yeah you can use (... ...) to escape the dots
2018-11-22T14:31:12Z rain1: if you're talking syntax-rules
2018-11-22T14:31:28Z lllll: yes, syntax-rules
2018-11-22T14:31:55Z rain1: if you'd like some more specific advice you could show the macros your working on and what they do etc.
2018-11-22T14:35:02Z lllll: https://pastebin.com/HMZz7N3K
2018-11-22T14:35:27Z lllll: here i want to abstract the body of function
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2018-11-22T14:36:45Z rain1: so there's a common programming pattern with macros that you should think about if you can apply here
2018-11-22T14:37:42Z rain1: the pattern is to define a new language construct using 2 things: A procedure that implements most of the system and a very small piece of macro code that expands into a use of that procedure
2018-11-22T14:38:42Z rain1: the aim with that is to make the amount of macro code smaller, this usually makes it easier to understand the whole
2018-11-22T14:45:19Z lllll: ill try to abstract it to another macro
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2018-11-22T14:46:05Z rain1: ok! that's not what i was suggesting but it might work too
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2018-11-22T14:47:03Z lllll: i could define a procedure
2018-11-22T14:47:35Z lllll: but i would need to pass it the body pattern without evaluating
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2018-11-22T14:48:30Z rain1: well the trick you can use for that is simply wrap body in a lambda
2018-11-22T14:48:41Z rain1: then the proceduce can invoke that thunk when it needs to
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2018-11-22T15:09:21Z lllll: thanks, that's what i did
2018-11-22T15:09:42Z lllll: now it's much cleaner
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2018-11-22T15:27:18Z jcowan: I'm not actually crazy about that pattern: there's no real need for the macro then.
2018-11-22T15:28:23Z lllll: what do you mean?
2018-11-22T15:29:56Z jcowan: You might just as well expose the procedure that takes the thunk.  Of course, I haven't seen the specific example, so I'm shooting from the hip here.
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2018-11-22T15:31:25Z lllll: https://pastebin.com/6RxQ5pk8
2018-11-22T15:31:28Z lllll: this is what i did
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2018-11-22T15:32:55Z rain1: very good
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2018-11-22T15:33:31Z rain1: did you mean to pass 'fname the symbol?
2018-11-22T15:33:43Z rain1: for use in the hash table
2018-11-22T15:34:14Z rain1: (_ (fname . args) body ...)      (_ (fname arg arg* ...) body ...)     <- you only need one of these, they cover the same thing
2018-11-22T15:34:31Z rain1: oh  that's  not quite true, because of the case of 0 args
2018-11-22T15:34:42Z rain1: but you can probably just do one case that handles 0 or more args
2018-11-22T15:35:36Z rain1: oh actually
2018-11-22T15:35:55Z rain1: (fname . args) is supposed to cover the var-args case? it actually covers everything though
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2018-11-22T15:36:51Z rain1: so you can delete lines 27-32
2018-11-22T15:37:23Z rain1: but the deeper problem is that this macro is attempting to re-implement part of DEFINE
2018-11-22T15:37:43Z rain1: maybe there's no way around that though, anyone know?
2018-11-22T15:39:11Z lllll: right
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2018-11-22T17:57:13Z edw: ogamita: I have no idea how you came to your conclusion, but FYI neither ARPANET nor magazines with floppies were mainstream things in the early Eighties.
2018-11-22T17:59:31Z pjb: edw: in the early eighties, most western universities were connected, if not directly via IP, at least indirectly via networks such as bitnet or even uucp.  Teachers writing books could expect most of the students to be able to download their code from some ftp server.
2018-11-22T18:00:01Z qu1j0t3: might be using "mainstream" to mean consumer.
2018-11-22T18:00:06Z pjb: I did download a ton of files with a 1200 b/s modem connecting to my university account at that time.
2018-11-22T18:00:07Z qu1j0t3: i think we all know there was institutional access.
2018-11-22T18:00:18Z pjb: consumers don't buy programming books.
2018-11-22T18:00:23Z qu1j0t3: <_<
2018-11-22T18:00:26Z qu1j0t3: >_>
2018-11-22T18:00:28Z qu1j0t3: they did in the 1980s :)
2018-11-22T18:01:03Z qu1j0t3: alongside a lot of 8 bit micros...
2018-11-22T18:01:34Z pjb: If you talk about microcomputers, then sometimes monthly programming magazines would print a floppy audio disk that you would play back to your k7 interface to load basic programs :-)
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2018-11-22T18:08:18Z edw: What is it with people's pathological need to "correct" and "educate" poeple here? A lot of arrogant malcontents here. pjb: I was nine years old in '82 when my parents bought the ][+. I had the Apple II Technical Reference Manual, the AppleSoft BASIC ][ manual, Beneath Apple DOS in addition to issues of Nibble, Byte, and Compute! magazines.
2018-11-22T18:08:34Z jcowan: Geek Answer Syndrome, edw.
2018-11-22T18:09:05Z edw: Actuall jcowan, it's...
2018-11-22T18:09:08Z edw: :P
2018-11-22T18:09:13Z jcowan: A variant of Male Answer Syndrome, except that rather than the answers being bullshit (in the technical sense) intended to impress, they are correct answers to the questions the geek would have asked himself.
2018-11-22T18:10:23Z edw: If Hacker News and 4chan didn't exist, I would suggest that we are the worst humans on the planet.
2018-11-22T18:12:16Z jcowan: Pffft.
2018-11-22T18:12:20Z pjb: If you had an Apple][ then you were a snotty geek like we were all at the time!
2018-11-22T18:12:21Z qu1j0t3: https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DsTm69KXQAAVwD5.jpg !
2018-11-22T18:12:23Z jcowan: GAS isn't all that bad.
2018-11-22T18:12:34Z pjb: Not a general public consumer.
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2018-11-22T18:13:09Z qu1j0t3: not to prolong this thread farther, but the Apple II (and other micros) were marketed to the general consumer.
2018-11-22T18:13:15Z edw: pjb: For real. I hated compute because it pandered to all the kids with VIC-20s and C64s.
2018-11-22T18:14:07Z edw: qu1j0t3: True.
2018-11-22T18:14:08Z pjb: qu1j0t3: of course, it was marketed so.  But who bought it really (or rather how were people who bought PCs considered by the others)?
2018-11-22T18:15:53Z qu1j0t3: i agree, the market was variegated once you got into it. People also bought micros to run small business stuff (with greater or lesser success). Word processing. etc. And some were just straight up snotty nerds, like you and me, who begged their parents :-)
2018-11-22T18:16:07Z edw: My parents' bought it to run their business and after becoming dissatisfied with the options my father wrote the accounting, inventory management, and shipping software upon which the business was based. When they closed up shop they had at least two dozen spare Apple IIs around as spares because they hadn't been made in decades.
2018-11-22T18:16:15Z qu1j0t3: ya
2018-11-22T18:16:17Z qu1j0t3: not an uncommon story
2018-11-22T18:16:22Z edw: s/parents'/parents/
2018-11-22T18:16:58Z edw: qu1j0t3: Yes, I am aware. I was sentient in the '80s.
2018-11-22T18:17:16Z qu1j0t3: ?
2018-11-22T18:18:52Z edw: "Not an uncommon story." The micro was the computer equivalent of the small Japanese pickups that came out around the same time: a piece of capital normal people could buy to build/run/grow a business.
2018-11-22T18:19:05Z qu1j0t3: i'm saying, yes, i observed the same thing.
2018-11-22T18:19:17Z qu1j0t3: that's all
2018-11-22T18:19:27Z edw: Ah, my apologies.
2018-11-22T18:19:33Z qu1j0t3: no worries.
2018-11-22T18:20:05Z qu1j0t3: looks like there are four of us in here violently agreeing, all with vivid memories of the 1980s
2018-11-22T18:20:10Z qu1j0t3: :)
2018-11-22T18:20:15Z edw: I'm still getting over the realization that all the code I typed in after reading and thinking about was a complete waste.
2018-11-22T18:20:53Z qu1j0t3: well.. by the mid-80s i had a fancy 5.25" disk system, but earlier on, yeah, coding on a ZX-81 meant losing everythign if you sneezed.
2018-11-22T18:20:53Z edw: I felt bad for the Atari 400 kids; they had to get a cartridge even to write basic.
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2018-11-22T18:21:42Z qu1j0t3: the really dumb part was that after i got my first Mac, i was still too stupid about backups and such to preserve my work from back then
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2018-11-22T18:23:01Z edw: I was friends with the kids who were my grandmother's neighbors. Their dad has a Timex Sinclair 2000 (with a membrane keyboard) that he wrote stock analysis and portfolio management software on. I'd see him watching Wall St. in Review and staring at his black and white TV and poking the tiny Timex Sinclair.
2018-11-22T18:23:15Z qu1j0t3: yeah, that's what we called the ZX-81
2018-11-22T18:23:24Z qu1j0t3: or ZX-80, possibly (which i never used)
2018-11-22T18:23:40Z qu1j0t3: it was Timex in north america
2018-11-22T18:23:50Z edw: Did it have a real keyboard? Like actual buttons? The T-S 2K had switches under a plastic sheet.
2018-11-22T18:23:58Z qu1j0t3: both those models were membrane.
2018-11-22T18:24:01Z qu1j0t3: they were very primitive.
2018-11-22T18:24:06Z qu1j0t3: my uncle and my dad owned ZX-81's
2018-11-22T18:24:12Z edw: Like 2K of memory or something?
2018-11-22T18:24:15Z qu1j0t3: but when they're the only computer you can access .... still pretty exciting
2018-11-22T18:24:27Z qu1j0t3: edw: yeah, and a memory upgrade, which had a flaky connector (famously)
2018-11-22T18:24:49Z edw: Oh totes. The rush it is to be able to write something that does something.
2018-11-22T18:24:56Z qu1j0t3: it was popular to code them in machine code (not even assembler) because the BASIC was so slow (and the CPU was tied up generating the video for most of the time)
2018-11-22T18:25:11Z edw: Thus the recommendation to not breath while using.
2018-11-22T18:25:13Z qu1j0t3: yep
2018-11-22T18:25:31Z edw: Breathe. Too cold here in NY.
2018-11-22T18:26:51Z edw: I got into assembly thanks to reading about the RWTS (Read-write track-sector) routines in DOS 3.3. And then I fascinated by the concept of interrupts and circular buffers.
2018-11-22T18:27:04Z qu1j0t3 nods
2018-11-22T18:28:27Z edw: Better times. I try to teach kids the power of Scheme + C (high and low) but all they want to do is wear fedoras and install NPM modules.
2018-11-22T18:33:37Z jcowan: I'm about 150 miles upstate from NYC, lots of snow on the ground, and 8 F / -13 C outside the house.
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2018-11-22T18:35:41Z jcowan: In the 1980s I was hacking PDP-11s, Tandem NonStop systems, and Vaxen, in that order.  I think I bought my first home computer in 2012 or so.
2018-11-22T18:36:58Z oni-on-ion: quite the gap
2018-11-22T18:38:13Z edw: jcowan: Did you simply not work from home? (Remember that?! Remember not working 24x7?)
2018-11-22T18:39:05Z jcowan: I did have terminals and modems at home, but they were paid for by $EMPLOYER.  As indeed is this laptop I'm using today (my own needs some repairs which I have been putting off).
2018-11-22T18:39:44Z jcowan: I remember setting up a personal restaurant file in Datatrieve, the ancestor of dBASE II and more remotely SQLite.
2018-11-22T18:40:17Z jcowan: I went out to dinner a lot more then.
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2018-11-22T18:42:46Z edw: I've found the perfect work machine, btw: a new 12.9" iPad Pro using Blink/mosh/tmux to connect to a box in the cloud. It's like having a sci-fi version of my dream computer from '85.
2018-11-22T18:44:01Z oni-on-ion: =) =)
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2018-11-22T19:04:17Z jcowan: With an external keyboard and pointing device, I trust.
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2018-11-22T19:47:19Z edw: jcowan: Fingers are here. (I live in `emacs -nw`.)
2018-11-22T20:06:26Z aeth: edw: why
2018-11-22T20:07:01Z aeth: One of the first aliases I made was to do e='emacs -nw'
2018-11-22T20:08:24Z aeth: (I also make t='tmux attach' and that's it for one-character aliases)
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2018-11-22T22:32:27Z jcowan: I use `ex`, but I don't live there.
2018-11-22T22:33:27Z pjb: I prefer ed.
2018-11-22T22:33:47Z jcowan: A radical, I see.
2018-11-22T22:34:09Z jcowan: I'll trade off a little standardosity for greater convenience
2018-11-22T22:34:25Z jcowan: I prefer nvi's ex, but I'll tolerate vim's.
2018-11-22T22:38:29Z jcowan: In other news, Arthur aka srfi-editors has just posted my portable implementation of the R6RS bytevector library and SRFI 4 (modulo the lexical syntax).
2018-11-22T22:39:17Z jcowan: they are both in the SRFI 4 repo, and will work on any Scheme with minimal bytevector support (make-bv, bv?, bv-length, bv-ref, bv-set!)
2018-11-22T22:39:33Z jcowan: oh, and R6RS or R7RS or SRFI 9 records
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2018-11-22T23:03:58Z pjb: But for scheme programming, edwin is much better than ed ex or vi.
2018-11-22T23:19:16Z jcowan: To each his own tools
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2018-11-23T10:24:38Z lavaflow: I find myself commonly writing code like this:
2018-11-23T10:24:44Z lavaflow: (define foo-cach (make-hash))
2018-11-23T10:24:50Z lavaflow: (define (foo x) ....)
2018-11-23T10:25:40Z lavaflow: where foo uses foo-cache to avoid recomputing for x.   can anybody suggest a cleaner way to accomplish this sort of thing?
2018-11-23T10:26:39Z lavaflow: I mean it works but it just seems messy to me.
2018-11-23T10:27:44Z lavaflow: I'm thinking some sort of macro that would look like (define-with-cache (foo x) ...) that would bind foo-cache in the body, initialized to a mutable hash
2018-11-23T10:29:37Z lavaflow: (also breaking hygiene like that isn't something I've done before with scheme macros)
2018-11-23T10:32:17Z lavaflow: ah right, memoization is what I'm doing, I forgot there was a word for this.
2018-11-23T10:32:55Z ogamita: lavaflow: it's called memorizing.  There are libraries doing that in a general way.
2018-11-23T10:33:43Z lavaflow: ogamita: aye, I found a set of lecture slides that show a syntax-rule for define-memo
2018-11-23T10:33:56Z ogamita: I mean memoization, sorry, bad memory.
2018-11-23T10:34:13Z lavaflow: I think I'd still like to implement my own that breaks hygiene to give myself more control over whether or not the cache is actually used
2018-11-23T10:34:46Z ogamita:  http://community.schemewiki.org/?memoization
2018-11-23T10:35:15Z lavaflow: nice, thank you
2018-11-23T10:38:25Z lavaflow: hmm, is *this-style* the way many people name globals in scheme?  I thought that was more of a common lispism
2018-11-23T10:46:08Z ogamita: Yes, it's common lisp.  It's useless in scheme, since even globals are lexical variables.
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2018-11-23T10:47:14Z ogamita: In CL, the name of dynamic variables is declared special, and there's no way to undeclare them or shadow their specialness: all bindings on them will always be dynamic.  So to avoid problems, we use the *star* convention, so the rest of the variables can remain lexical.
2018-11-23T10:48:00Z ogamita: In scheme, libraries implementing dynamic bindings (sometimes called "parameters"), use a special form such as (dynamic foo) instead of *foo*. It's not a bad way to do it.
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2018-11-23T10:49:29Z lavaflow: ah right, I forgot dynamic/specials are common in CL
2018-11-23T10:50:53Z lavaflow: I've only used parameters in guile and racket a little, but I like the way the code using them looks.
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2018-11-23T11:09:25Z ecraven: is it just me, or is it insane that 3 docker containers to run graylog (a log file aggregator) take more than 1 gigabyte :-/
2018-11-23T11:09:47Z ecraven: for grafana (system metrics monitoring), it's at least "only" 500MB
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2018-11-23T11:17:41Z lavaflow: that's definitely insane
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2018-11-23T14:00:22Z dTal: my favorite logfile aggregator is 'cat'
2018-11-23T14:01:03Z ecraven: dTal: that would be fine, if cat also added the same timestamp format to everything :-P
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2018-11-23T14:13:15Z jcowan: If all the logs have the same timestamp format and it is a reasonable one, then sort will do the job. If you're stuck with some bad timestamp format, you're out of luck.
2018-11-23T14:17:28Z ogamita: jcowan: awk + sort, np
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2018-11-23T14:18:33Z xkapastel: anyone get chibi scheme working with webassembly?
2018-11-23T14:18:58Z jcowan: That would be a big job
2018-11-23T14:19:08Z jcowan: Chibi-in-the-browser uses emscripten.
2018-11-23T14:23:54Z jcowan: However, I see that emscripten supports WA now, so perhaps it's just an adjustment to the Makefile.
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2018-11-23T14:50:20Z jonaslund: jcowan: emscripten can output webassembly code (first version of WA was supposed to be equivalent or better than the JS output)
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2018-11-23T14:56:44Z xkapastel: i'm trying to decipher the makefile
2018-11-23T14:57:02Z xkapastel: considering emscripten's wasm support, i imagine it's easy but no one has looked at it
2018-11-23T14:57:25Z xkapastel: s/imagine/hope
2018-11-23T15:04:36Z lavaflow: gnu make builds with guile doesn't it?  why can't we write our makefiles in some sane DSL implemented in guile, instead of the abomination that is the traditional make DSL
2018-11-23T15:04:49Z lavaflow: I guess that's probably part of the idea of guix
2018-11-23T15:16:52Z jcowan: The best thing would be to write them in Prolog.
2018-11-23T15:17:39Z jcowan: If you type "./configure" in the root of the Chibi source directory, you get "Autoconf is an evil piece of] bloatware encouraging cargo-cult programming.  Make, on the other hand, is a beautiful little prolog for the filesystem.  Just run 'make'."
2018-11-23T15:34:12Z jonaslund: jcowan: as funny as that is.. how does chibi handle platform differences ?
2018-11-23T15:34:28Z jonaslund: (well i guess there could be a ton of if-def's)
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2018-11-23T15:46:05Z jcowan: It uses uname to get the platform name and then sets a bunch of Make variables for the SO extension (dylib, so, dll) and executable extension (.exe or nothing).  These are then copied into install.h
2018-11-23T15:47:35Z jcowan: There are a few system-specific #ifdefs, but only 54 in 28K lines of code.
2018-11-23T15:49:41Z jcowan: The currently supported platforms are MacOS, the four BSDs (all treated the same), Linux, Android, MSYS, and Cygwin, plus Plan 9 and Emscripten which are handled separately.
2018-11-23T15:50:16Z jcowan: AFAIK it is the only Scheme running natively on Plan 9.
2018-11-23T15:50:33Z jcowan: (some may be buildable with Ape, I don't know that anyone has tried.)
2018-11-23T15:51:43Z lavaflow: then it sounds like they put their money where their mouth is, so to speak
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2018-11-23T15:53:16Z jcowan: Yes, it's very portable code.  The only portability issue I've ever found is that gcc on Cygwin warns if you try to index a C array by a character, since char could be signed or unsigned.  I report these as I find them and foof fixes them.
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2018-11-23T15:55:19Z xkapastel: maybe i'm misunderstanding this but shouldn't i be able to cheat? like, just create `libchibi-scheme.a`, then statically link that in another project that already has wasm building set up
2018-11-23T15:55:31Z xkapastel: so i don't need to mess with their makefiles
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2018-11-23T16:01:09Z jcowan: xkapastel: See the comments in include/chibi/features.h, which control compilation.  One of them is about static builds.
2018-11-23T16:02:15Z xkapastel: ah, thanks for that
2018-11-23T16:02:27Z jcowan: jonaslund: I forgot to count ifndefs, so that makes 60.  There are many more that are related to Chibi feature flags; you can remove lots of things from the implementation to make it smaller, from bignums to flonums to library support to records to threads to finalizers to GC.
2018-11-23T16:03:23Z jcowan: xkapastel: libchibi-scheme.a is an explicit target in the Makefile
2018-11-23T16:03:33Z xkapastel: jcowan: yes, i built it already
2018-11-23T16:03:41Z xkapastel: is there an easy symbol in libchibi to call?
2018-11-23T16:03:46Z xkapastel: like chibi_version or something
2018-11-23T16:03:49Z xkapastel: to verify that it worked
2018-11-23T16:04:23Z xkapastel: if it works then it should be very easy to use chibi with wasm, since you can just build the `.a`, then call it from rust
2018-11-23T16:06:00Z jonaslund: jcowan: well i think you can probably get a away with it as long as you don't try to build a big stdlib or make a jit
2018-11-23T16:06:39Z edw: aeth: Because it's small and encourages focus while also allowing me to do nearly anything short of running Xcode. It's a portable Canon Cat that also is also a great terminal. The perfect nerd computing appliance.
2018-11-23T16:09:29Z xkapastel: edw: are you talking about the ipad pro?
2018-11-23T16:12:54Z edw: Ja.
2018-11-23T16:13:14Z edw: xkapastel: Oui.
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2018-11-23T16:31:39Z xkapastel: uncommenting `SEXP_USE_STATIC_LIBS` just broke the build
2018-11-23T16:31:51Z xkapastel: i don't really get it, it instructs you to uncomment it, but doing that make sit stop working
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2018-11-23T16:43:54Z ManDay: What's the best way to write (xor a b) ?
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2018-11-23T16:53:44Z rain1: you will need to implement xor function
2018-11-23T16:55:37Z rain1: (define (xor a b) (if a (not b) b))  I think?
2018-11-23T16:56:53Z edw: (and (or a b) (not (and a b)))
2018-11-23T16:57:06Z edw: Though you probably knew that...
2018-11-23T16:57:41Z edw: You might want to define NAND since IIRC from EE 101 that's like *the* fundamental gate...
2018-11-23T16:57:52Z xkapastel: nand and nor are both complete
2018-11-23T16:59:13Z edw: Pardon, *one* of *the* *two*.
2018-11-23T16:59:44Z rain1: why tf does scheme not bring these
2018-11-23T17:02:04Z jcowan: xkapastel: Probably that branch hasn't been tested in a while.  One of the problem with having 52 feature flags is that you have 4503599627370496 configurations to test, and that's just on one of the 8 platforms
2018-11-23T17:05:12Z xkapastel: the error is in a .so, so i wanna just ignore it since i only want the .a
2018-11-23T17:05:16Z xkapastel: but it's messing everything else up
2018-11-23T17:05:28Z edw: FWIW trying to get Chibi to build on iOS broke my spirit.
2018-11-23T17:05:40Z xkapastel: anyway this seems like it's gonna work so i'm not too worri-oh, maybe edw just ruined my day
2018-11-23T17:06:02Z Riastradh: ecraven: | tai64n
2018-11-23T17:07:36Z edw: xkapastel: I wrote my own Lisp iOS lisp interpreter in Swift (using my C lisp/Clojure parser project that's on GitHub btw) after trying to get Chibi running.
2018-11-23T17:07:37Z jcowan: rain1: SRFI 151 provides a decently portable implementation of every bitwise op you can think of, though it works faster if you have C (or similar) versions of the core ops bitwise-not, bitwise-and, bitwise-ior, bitwise-xor, arithmetic-shift, bit-count, integer-length
2018-11-23T17:08:05Z xkapastel: edw: well, i was actually writing my own lisp interpreter and was trying to move to chibi instead to save the work...
2018-11-23T17:08:13Z xkapastel: that's...not good news
2018-11-23T17:10:32Z edw: xkapastel: The README suggests that at one point Chibi built on iOS, but that was a while ago, and both Chibi and iOS are moving targets. But if you're serious about doing it, I may find myself offering to help you package it and fight bitrot on an ongoing basis.
2018-11-23T17:10:51Z xkapastel: (to be clear i am trying to build for wasm, not ios)
2018-11-23T17:11:30Z Riastradh: Feature flags are evil.  Everything should be done exactly one way -- the Right Way.
2018-11-23T17:12:02Z wasamasa: just do it like plan 9, have one compiler interpreting the sources correctly for the respective platform
2018-11-23T17:12:22Z edw: Ah, yes, I tried that too, thinking JavascriptCore could be a path to Chibi-on-iOS.
2018-11-23T17:12:30Z edw: Or CoreJavascript or whatever.
2018-11-23T17:17:20Z jcowan: Riastradh: These are cost-sensitive feature flags.
2018-11-23T17:18:35Z ManDay: rain1: thanks. yes, i was looking for something simpler. btw I find (= (not a) (not b))  the nicer looking xor
2018-11-23T17:19:04Z jcowan: And cost tradeoffs, like the poor, you have always with you.
2018-11-23T17:19:13Z rain1: ManDay: I like that! the symmetry is good
2018-11-23T17:19:16Z Riastradh: jcowan: Everyone else's cost model is wrong!
2018-11-23T17:19:21Z ManDay: rain1: :D
2018-11-23T17:19:41Z Riastradh: ManDay: Might want to use eqv? instead of = there, since = is limited to numerical inputs.
2018-11-23T17:20:01Z rain1: wait
2018-11-23T17:20:01Z ManDay: Riastradh: = is unspeced on booleans?!
2018-11-23T17:20:02Z xkapastel: `(= (not a) (not b))` implements xor?
2018-11-23T17:20:06Z rain1: shouldn't it be (not (eq? a b))
2018-11-23T17:20:09Z xkapastel: am i missing something
2018-11-23T17:20:14Z jcowan: bitwise xor
2018-11-23T17:20:23Z ManDay: rain1: nah, that wouldn't work if a and b are not bools
2018-11-23T17:20:35Z rain1: ahh
2018-11-23T17:21:14Z ManDay: jcowan: you accidentally two words there
2018-11-23T17:21:21Z rain1: (not (eq? (not a) (not b))) then
2018-11-23T17:21:42Z ManDay: rain1: right, i'll factor the (not ) out to make it look simpler :-P
2018-11-23T17:21:49Z Riastradh: rudybot: eval (= 1 #f)
2018-11-23T17:22:08Z ManDay: Riastradh: Your point? The = in my impl only compares two booleans
2018-11-23T17:22:16Z ManDay: That should be well defined, shouldn't it?
2018-11-23T17:22:21Z rudybot: Riastradh: error: with-limit: out of time
2018-11-23T17:22:23Z Riastradh: rudybot: eval (= 1 #f)
2018-11-23T17:22:24Z rain1: I Thought = was for numbers only
2018-11-23T17:22:28Z rudybot: Riastradh: your r5rs sandbox is ready
2018-11-23T17:22:28Z Riastradh: ManDay: No.  = is defined on numeric inputs.
2018-11-23T17:22:28Z rudybot: Riastradh: error: =: contract violation <NEWLINE>   expected: number? <NEWLINE>   given: #f <NEWLINE>   argument position: 2nd <NEWLINE>   other arguments...: <NEWLINE>    1
2018-11-23T17:22:40Z Riastradh: ManDay: eval (= #t #t)
2018-11-23T17:23:06Z ManDay: yep, got me good
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2018-11-23T17:24:22Z Riastradh: ManDay: eval (eqv? #t #t)
2018-11-23T17:24:33Z ManDay: Riastradh: Ok ok... I got it!
2018-11-23T17:24:42Z Riastradh: er
2018-11-23T17:24:45Z Riastradh: rudybot: eval (eqv? #t #t)
2018-11-23T17:24:45Z rudybot: Riastradh: ; Value: #t
2018-11-23T17:24:54Z Riastradh typo
2018-11-23T17:24:59Z ManDay: Two times :-P
2018-11-23T17:25:15Z Riastradh fail
2018-11-23T17:25:22Z Riastradh attention elsewhere
2018-11-23T17:26:22Z ManDay: Another: Is there a nicer alternative to, knowing that PAIR has exactly one element set to #f:   (PROC (or (car PAIR) (cdr PAIR)) (if (car PAIR) (car X) (cdr X)))  ?
2018-11-23T17:26:59Z ManDay: (i.e. call PROC with the non-false, corresponding elements from X and PAIR)
2018-11-23T17:27:02Z rain1: you are micro optimizing :P
2018-11-23T17:27:03Z Riastradh: xkapastel: I suspect you need a working build of Chibi first before you can build a static Chibi, since part of the static build entails running a script with Chibi to generate some code.
2018-11-23T17:27:11Z ManDay: rain1: That's how I roll :-P
2018-11-23T17:27:33Z ManDay: Also, if I were *optimizing* I'd probably use a different language. I'm *micro-beautifying* :-D
2018-11-23T17:27:48Z rain1: so proc wants car & cdr  and it prefers to get the non #f one first
2018-11-23T17:27:55Z ManDay: (also, feel free to change the premise of data types)
2018-11-23T17:28:18Z rain1: I would do it like this (if x (proc x y) (proc y x))
2018-11-23T17:28:20Z ManDay: rain1: no, it wants either (car PAIR) and (car X)  or (cdr PAIR) and (cdr X), depending on which value of PAIR is #f
2018-11-23T17:28:26Z rain1: oh
2018-11-23T17:28:39Z rain1: ok
2018-11-23T17:28:48Z jcowan: It's a SQL merge that takes #f as NULL; give me the non-NULL value.
2018-11-23T17:28:58Z rain1: (let ((f (if thing car cdr))) (proc (f pair) (f x))))
2018-11-23T17:29:19Z jcowan: Nice use of procedures as values.
2018-11-23T17:29:28Z ManDay: rain1: i hope you don't run a beautysalon
2018-11-23T17:29:43Z rain1: what I wrote is good
2018-11-23T17:29:55Z ManDay: every let is a let too many :-P
2018-11-23T17:30:20Z ManDay: but yeah, it's nicer because... symmetry and okay beacuse... non-redundant
2018-11-23T17:30:50Z rain1: I've been thinking about "fixing" let recently with something like (block  ... (:= var val) ...)
2018-11-23T17:30:55Z rain1: don't know if it is a good idea though
2018-11-23T17:31:09Z rain1: but it would help in some cases where you have a lot of nested lets
2018-11-23T17:31:13Z rain1: has anyone thought about this problem?
2018-11-23T17:31:22Z ManDay: rain1: haskell has
2018-11-23T17:31:36Z rain1: oh yeah
2018-11-23T17:31:50Z ManDay: though I'm not sure what exactly it is you are proposing, could you spell it out for the more slow minded?
2018-11-23T17:32:21Z rain1: (block  ... (:= var val) ...)  would become (begin ... (let ((var val)) ..))
2018-11-23T17:32:52Z ManDay: you mean you just intersparse the := into a sequence of forms?
2018-11-23T17:32:55Z ManDay: *shudder*
2018-11-23T17:33:02Z ManDay: yeah, that's kinda haskell-do'ish
2018-11-23T17:33:07Z ManDay: just worse x-D
2018-11-23T17:33:46Z ManDay: btw: I went for your suggestion ;)
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2018-11-23T17:36:28Z edw: rain1, I wonder what you found wanting in my definition? (and (or a b) (not (and a b)))
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2018-11-23T17:37:00Z rain1: nohting, it's good!
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2018-11-23T17:39:24Z xkapastel: i think i'm just gonna fork chibi and use cargo to build it instead
2018-11-23T17:39:28Z xkapastel: i'm tired of dealing with make
2018-11-23T17:40:02Z ecraven: Riastradh: is there actually such a program?
2018-11-23T17:40:37Z Riastradh: ecraven: https://cr.yp.to/daemontools.html
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2018-11-23T17:41:07Z Riastradh: NAME
2018-11-23T17:41:08Z Riastradh:        tai64n - puts a precise timestamp on each line.
2018-11-23T17:41:08Z Riastradh: SYNOPSIS
2018-11-23T17:41:08Z Riastradh:        tai64n
2018-11-23T17:41:13Z ecraven: ah, sorry, I looked at another page on that site, but didn't find that
2018-11-23T17:41:39Z Riastradh: To render it, pass it through tai64nlocal afterward.
2018-11-23T17:42:35Z Riastradh: Timestamps from tai64n are in lexicographic order independent of your local time zone, so you can merge first with `sort -m'.
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2018-11-23T17:57:35Z edw: Ah, daemontools. Speaking of service management: Can systemd be used to read mail yet?
2018-11-23T17:57:36Z rain1: amz3: https://www.cs.purdue.edu/homes/rompf/papers/rompf-icfp15.pdf may be interesting to you
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2018-11-23T18:07:56Z amz3: tx
2018-11-23T18:08:17Z ManDay quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2018-11-23T18:08:56Z amz3: a lot
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2018-11-23T19:04:14Z Riastradh: foof: Hmmmmmmmmm.
2018-11-23T19:04:17Z Riastradh: > 0.14285714285714282
2018-11-23T19:04:17Z Riastradh: 0.14285714285714288
2018-11-23T19:04:17Z Riastradh: > 0.14285714285714288
2018-11-23T19:04:17Z Riastradh: 0.14285714285714293
2018-11-23T19:04:24Z Riastradh: > 0.14285714285714293
2018-11-23T19:04:25Z Riastradh: 0.14285714285714296
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2018-11-23T19:12:51Z ecraven: Riastradh: chibi?
2018-11-23T19:13:19Z ecraven: indeed
2018-11-23T19:16:06Z Riastradh: Does make test pass for you?
2018-11-23T19:16:28Z ecraven: I'll try, gimme a few minutes
2018-11-23T19:16:34Z ecraven: did you ever raise that gcc bug?
2018-11-23T19:17:12Z Riastradh: No, I mostly forgot about it.
2018-11-23T19:17:28Z ecraven: hm.. ERROR: couldn't find import: (scheme red)
2018-11-23T19:17:33Z ecraven: compiling git
2018-11-23T19:19:02Z ecraven: hm.. seems to not adversely affect it, make test runs fine in both the arch linux git package and the 0.8 release from github
2018-11-23T19:19:08Z ecraven: though I get slightly different numbers than you
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2018-11-23T19:20:31Z ecraven: which version did you run exactly? on 0.8, the numbers match exactly
2018-11-23T19:22:36Z ecraven: on git head, this seems to work fine too
2018-11-23T19:22:40Z ecraven: I had an old 0.7.3 installed
2018-11-23T19:25:10Z Riastradh: Ah.  I bet it's due to double-rounding in long double.
2018-11-23T19:26:20Z Riastradh: Or, rather, no, because the algorithm is written assuming 64-bit long double precision and the system I'm on has it set to 53-bit by default.
2018-11-23T19:26:27Z Riastradh: I bet if you ran it on an arm it would also fail.
2018-11-23T19:26:52Z ecraven: hm.. I'll see whether I can do that
2018-11-23T19:29:11Z ecraven: I need more rpis
2018-11-23T19:36:58Z xkapastel: i wanna get like 4 rpis and do machine learning stuff with lisp
2018-11-23T19:38:38Z ecraven: hm.. missing dlfcn.h
2018-11-23T19:39:33Z Riastradh: ecraven: https://mumble.net/~campbell/tmp/20181123/sexp.patch
2018-11-23T19:39:38Z Riastradh: (to witness on x86)
2018-11-23T19:40:59Z ecraven: can't build on arm, my rpi distro doesn't seem to have dlfcn.h :-/
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2018-11-23T19:58:55Z edw: Various keyword syntax arguments have stated that MIT Scheme supports both :foo and foo: yet evaluating :foo (or foo:) results in a "foo not defined error".
2018-11-23T19:59:43Z edw: And (symbol? \:foo) evaluates to true.
2018-11-23T19:59:52Z edw: Er, (symbol ':foo).
2018-11-23T20:00:03Z edw: Er, (symbol? ':foo).
2018-11-23T20:00:45Z Riastradh: edw: -*- keyword-style: prefix -*-
2018-11-23T20:01:35Z edw: Ah. Thank you. Is that in the (User|Reference) Manual?
2018-11-23T20:01:40Z Riastradh: No idea.
2018-11-23T20:06:01Z edw: Appears to not appear in neither. Was hoping to figure out how to get the *scheme* buffer to comply with my wishes.
2018-11-23T20:10:10Z Riastradh: (parameterize ((param:reader-keyword-style 'prefix)) (ve '(user))), maybe.
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2018-11-23T20:12:14Z edw: Riastradh: thanks.
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2018-11-23T20:24:28Z edw: Riastradh, the problem: this box's Ubuntu distrib is using an MIT Scheme from '16.
2018-11-23T20:24:43Z confusedwanderer: there is a $1000 bounty for a bug on on Chez: https://github.com/cisco/ChezScheme/issues/364
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2018-11-23T20:28:34Z wasamasa: for good reason, this kind of bug is mindnumbing to hunt
2018-11-23T20:28:45Z Riastradh: edw: Maybe (fluid-let ((*parser-keyword-style* 'prefix)) (ve '(user))), then.
2018-11-23T20:29:47Z confusedwanderer: wasamasa: i can imagine! hope someone helps stergiotis or he can figure it out/find an alternative
2018-11-23T20:30:16Z wasamasa: I've run into such a bug once so far, eventually a core dev hunted it down
2018-11-23T20:30:36Z wasamasa: not for chez though, CHICKEN
2018-11-23T20:31:14Z confusedwanderer: i see
2018-11-23T20:31:59Z wasamasa: it turned out to be memory corruption by something entirely else and it took some from me to notice
2018-11-23T20:33:03Z confusedwanderer: wow. makes me appreciate not working directly in C
2018-11-23T20:33:56Z wasamasa: you should be glad that most of the C code you rely on not breaking down on you :P
2018-11-23T20:34:25Z wasamasa: sometimes all it takes to challenge that assumption is upgrading gcc
2018-11-23T20:34:37Z wasamasa: or trying to compile it on a different system
2018-11-23T20:35:27Z wasamasa: one of the weirder things in development for me was printf not working at all
2018-11-23T20:35:50Z wasamasa: it was as if the line was skipped silently
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2018-11-23T20:36:13Z confusedwanderer: wow, did you figure it out?
2018-11-23T20:36:26Z wasamasa: turned out that reordering code or optimizing a seemingly unrelated function out is fair game if your code runs into undefined behavior
2018-11-23T20:36:58Z confusedwanderer: oh
2018-11-23T20:37:01Z wasamasa: I switched to slightly different optimization settings and all was well again
2018-11-23T20:37:44Z wasamasa: but I never fixed the underlying fault in that codebase
2018-11-23T20:38:16Z wasamasa: most funny thing: this project claimed the lisp it implemented was free of undefined behavior
2018-11-23T20:39:05Z confusedwanderer: that's crazy
2018-11-23T20:39:21Z wasamasa: yeah, this made me realize that undefined behavior is part of life
2018-11-23T20:39:56Z wasamasa: it's just that the C kind keeps surprising us
2018-11-23T20:40:01Z confusedwanderer: i'm glad for the most part that layer of concerns can be forgotten in a higher level language
2018-11-23T20:40:12Z wasamasa: it can, but it may as well show up again
2018-11-23T20:40:31Z confusedwanderer: you're right
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2018-11-23T20:41:12Z confusedwanderer: at least you can put those thoughts away until things starting looking really crazy, right?
2018-11-23T20:41:39Z wasamasa: yeah and this is quite impressive if you think about how complex systems are these days
2018-11-23T20:43:08Z confusedwanderer: it really is
2018-11-23T20:43:14Z wasamasa: to think that the hardware you're running this on is less likely to have a bug than a browser coerced into being an application platform
2018-11-23T20:43:29Z confusedwanderer: hahaha
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2018-11-23T20:46:35Z confusedwanderer: last week i read a paper by martin ward on language oriented programming in which he argues the single greatest increase in programmer productivity came from higher level languages
2018-11-23T20:47:17Z confusedwanderer: it's from 94
2018-11-23T20:48:31Z confusedwanderer: he then argues another great gain in productivity could come from using domain oriented languages
2018-11-23T20:48:40Z rain1: yikes
2018-11-23T20:48:42Z ecraven: lisp and DSLs :D
2018-11-23T20:48:49Z rain1: didn't know there was so much gold in scheme compiler bugfixing
2018-11-23T20:49:11Z edw: confusedwanderer: One of the premises of _The Practice of Programming_ is that solving problems is best accomplished by designing languages that allow you to concisely express the problems. The book's from the mid-late Nineties.
2018-11-23T20:49:44Z wasamasa: confusedwanderer: I'm wondering whether careful design shouldn't have been more important than productivity
2018-11-23T20:50:08Z edw: The next person who says "DSL" in my presence will never write another line of Ruby in their natural lives.
2018-11-23T20:51:27Z confusedwanderer: edw: the paper in question is called "Language Oriented Programming". it seems like ward created the term
2018-11-23T20:53:43Z confusedwanderer: wasamasa: i wonder how much a domain language could help in the design
2018-11-23T20:53:59Z wasamasa: it can help indeed
2018-11-23T20:54:08Z wasamasa: see the whole langsec topic
2018-11-23T20:55:01Z wasamasa: they argue for using formal languages and generated parsers in favor of handrolled ones
2018-11-23T20:55:26Z confusedwanderer: i didn't know about langsec, thanks for pointing it out
2018-11-23T20:55:52Z wasamasa: there's a guy at the local hackerspace who loves to argue about how evil turing-complete languages are
2018-11-23T20:56:31Z wasamasa: that is, in situations where something less powerful is fine
2018-11-23T20:56:35Z confusedwanderer: does he like agda/coq/idris?
2018-11-23T20:56:43Z confusedwanderer: oh i see
2018-11-23T20:59:02Z confusedwanderer: i was reading about the nanopass framework used in the chez implementation and it is based on defining languages and transformations between them
2018-11-23T21:00:21Z edw: See also: nearly every modern web templating engine that takes the opinion that anything more than facilities for composiiton and iteration constitutes an open invitation for abuse.
2018-11-23T21:03:08Z ecraven: wasamasa: but when is something less powerful actually *fine*?
2018-11-23T21:03:25Z ecraven: I've never seen the situation where I would have preferred a *less* powerful language
2018-11-23T21:03:40Z wasamasa: you must be drunk with power :D
2018-11-23T21:03:57Z ecraven: well, the choice between Lisp and Pascal was never hard for me
2018-11-23T21:04:01Z wasamasa: think of something like a chatbot that requires configuration
2018-11-23T21:04:38Z wasamasa: you could allow a turing-complete language for that or something more limited
2018-11-23T21:05:19Z wasamasa: the choice gets more interesting if you think about how it will behave in the presence of malicious user input
2018-11-23T21:05:31Z confusedwanderer: edw: in the book "language oriented programming in racket" there is an interview with matthew flatt in which he says he is not sure about racket's "info" language used for describing packages and dependencies
2018-11-23T21:05:49Z ecraven: wasamasa: well, the main question to me is is your configuration data or code
2018-11-23T21:05:59Z wasamasa: preferably data
2018-11-23T21:06:01Z ecraven: if it is code, I want it to be the most powerful sort of code ;)
2018-11-23T21:06:05Z ecraven: if it is data, the question is moot
2018-11-23T21:06:18Z ecraven: most of the time, I'd prefer it to be code though ;)
2018-11-23T21:06:40Z ecraven: I always run into situations where I would *like* to write something in config files that just cannot be expressed... reduce duplication, that sort of thing
2018-11-23T21:08:16Z confusedwanderer: ecraven: i agree after suffering for years with maven POM files. but mflatt's argument is that the use of a language for configuration files discourages the creation of tools that understand and manipulate the configuration
2018-11-23T21:09:34Z ecraven: confusedwanderer: it all depends on the exact use case, as always
2018-11-23T21:09:45Z confusedwanderer: i agree
2018-11-23T21:10:14Z ecraven: confusedwanderer: I'd be happy enough if most configuration used a uniform *syntax* (s-expressions of course :P)
2018-11-23T21:10:25Z confusedwanderer: there is also some space for conventions instead of obligations i think
2018-11-23T21:10:34Z confusedwanderer: hahaha
2018-11-23T21:11:02Z ecraven: but seriously, some sort of simple data syntax with s-expressions and some way to define simple "macros" (for repeated parts) would go a very long way
2018-11-23T21:11:28Z ecraven: but then, that could be seen as a very limited "language", which I've been arguing against :P
2018-11-23T21:11:40Z confusedwanderer: D:
2018-11-23T21:13:03Z confusedwanderer: racketeers would certainly consider it one, i think
2018-11-23T21:13:56Z confusedwanderer: they argue for a whole spectrum of languages
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2018-11-23T21:18:01Z confusedwanderer: do you people define languages for your projects?
2018-11-23T21:19:38Z confusedwanderer: be it first defining a language and then implementing/using it (ward calls it "middle-out development")
2018-11-23T21:19:55Z confusedwanderer: or just creating macros "organically"
2018-11-23T21:19:58Z ecraven: I mostly do the build-Scheme-up-to-your-DSL thing
2018-11-23T21:20:11Z ecraven: so just define suitable functions for solving your problems, then implement them ;)
2018-11-23T21:20:19Z ecraven: but I don't actually design them as languages
2018-11-23T21:20:44Z ecraven: also, I mostly do my hobby and freelance stuff, haven't been able to convince the employer yet to use Scheme at work ;)
2018-11-23T21:21:01Z ecraven: though I might be able to use chez, compiling to a single executable file
2018-11-23T21:22:02Z confusedwanderer: ecraven: i see, so it is more bottom-up, right?
2018-11-23T21:22:18Z confusedwanderer: ecraven: do you use chez for your hobby?
2018-11-23T21:22:30Z wasamasa: https://ptpb.pw/qLnf.png
2018-11-23T21:23:41Z wasamasa: I'm looking forward to this episode being solely about parentheses
2018-11-23T21:24:00Z confusedwanderer: hahahaha
2018-11-23T21:24:44Z confusedwanderer: enjoy your metacircular robots
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2018-11-23T21:42:13Z rain1: http://www.rosettacode.org/wiki/AKS_test_for_primes#Scheme i added this
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2018-11-23T21:47:01Z rain1: http://www.rosettacode.org/wiki/Reports:Tasks_not_implemented_in_Scheme
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2018-11-23T21:55:05Z qu1j0t3: edw: https://twitter.com/PulpLibrarian/status/1066087655480459264
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2018-11-23T22:26:31Z rain1: maybe I should make a scheme that's just the way I want it
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2018-11-23T22:34:55Z aeth: rain1: no
2018-11-23T22:35:49Z aeth: rain1: I mean I guess in theory you could make it in 48 hours like the Scheme48 devs... except of course actually double it to 96 if you're working alone...
2018-11-23T22:36:47Z aeth: But the research and learning stage before that is probably going to take a year :-p
2018-11-23T22:39:53Z aeth: If you really want to take a multiyear detour from your actual task, go ahead and write a Scheme.
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2018-11-23T22:50:52Z rain1: I just cant settle on any one scheme impl.
2018-11-23T22:51:04Z rain1: they all do something that i don't like
2018-11-23T22:51:19Z qu1j0t3: what does chicken do that you don't like
2018-11-23T22:53:34Z qu1j0t3 not a partisan, just curious
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2018-11-23T22:59:51Z xkapastel: cheney on the mta causes a lot of incompatibilities
2018-11-23T23:00:11Z xkapastel: libuv for one, also it's not really gonna work in e.g. wasm
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2018-11-23T23:37:29Z rain1: https://bpaste.net/show/eed223ff4531   what do you think about this as an approach to simulate tail calls? e.g. for transpiling scheme to js
2018-11-23T23:40:23Z amz3: you have the style
2018-11-23T23:41:11Z amz3: nice trick
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2018-11-24T01:04:28Z Riastradh: rain1: Why not just use a normal trampoline?
2018-11-24T01:04:36Z Riastradh: Why use exceptions?
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2018-11-24T03:01:03Z shinzo: Hi, need help with excercise 498 from htdp https://htdp.org/2018-01-06/Book/part_six.html#%28part._sec~3atrans-accu%29 - having trouble understanding the accummulator statement and what's the hint of the hint?
2018-11-24T03:01:41Z shinzo: part of the accumulator statement: the second accumulator stands for the tallest branch in the part of abt0 that is to the left of abt.
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2018-11-24T13:48:14Z decent-username: hi everyone. Is there a build in way to print lists?
2018-11-24T13:48:35Z wasamasa: the primitives are display and write
2018-11-24T13:48:42Z wasamasa: display is for humans, write for machines
2018-11-24T13:49:04Z decent-username: (display (list 1 2 3 4))
2018-11-24T13:49:19Z decent-username: what's so wrong about this one?
2018-11-24T13:49:23Z wasamasa: nothing
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2018-11-24T13:52:39Z decent-username: thanks for clearing that up. I had a problem with a misplaced `begin`.
2018-11-24T13:53:24Z decent-username: I can't wait to get to the part of SICP where you'll implement a sane object system.
2018-11-24T13:53:28Z decent-username: :3
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2018-11-24T13:59:47Z decent-username: https://pastebin.com/raw/2sY1yJaK This is how I implemented the `reverse` procedure that returns a reversed version of the input list.
2018-11-24T14:00:47Z decent-username: Is this right? My Scheme implementation says that I'm returning a procedure and the list afterwards.
2018-11-24T14:02:57Z decent-username: $58 = #<procedure > (#:optional _ _ . _)>
2018-11-24T14:02:58Z decent-username: $59 = (4 3 2 1)
2018-11-24T14:03:20Z wasamasa: looks good to me
2018-11-24T14:03:54Z wasamasa: what exactly did you evaluate?
2018-11-24T14:04:06Z wasamasa: the definition of it and an example call?
2018-11-24T14:04:57Z decent-username: I first defined a list like that: (define one-through-four (list 1 2 3 4))
2018-11-24T14:04:57Z decent-username:  
2018-11-24T14:05:05Z decent-username: and simply called reverse: (reverse one-through-four)
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2018-11-24T14:06:15Z decent-username: It's weird.
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2018-11-24T14:47:20Z pjb: decent-username: compare: (display (list "hello" "world")) with (write (list "hello" "world"))
2018-11-24T14:47:42Z pjb: (begin (display (list "hello" "world")) (newline) (write (list "hello" "world")) (newline))
2018-11-24T14:48:52Z edw: rudybot: eval (display '("foo" "bar"))
2018-11-24T14:49:03Z rudybot: edw: error: with-limit: out of time
2018-11-24T14:49:15Z pjb: It's printing >
2018-11-24T14:49:25Z pjb: Probably you entered the prompt itself at the prompt!
2018-11-24T14:49:46Z pjb: ie. cockpit error at the repl.
2018-11-24T14:51:01Z edw: rudybot: eval (display '("foo" "bar"))
2018-11-24T14:51:01Z rudybot: edw: ; stdout: "(foo bar)"
2018-11-24T14:51:08Z edw: rudybot: eval (write '("foo" "bar"))
2018-11-24T14:51:09Z rudybot: edw: ; stdout: "(\"foo\" \"bar\")"
2018-11-24T14:54:51Z edw: Anyone familiar enough with MIT Scheme to know why Edwin might not want to start up when built from source on Ubuntu (because it can't find a display...in terminal mode) vs Edwin happily starting up in a terminal? I'm using TERM=screen but setting TERM=vt100 or whatever doesn't seem to improve things.
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2018-11-24T15:10:51Z pjb: edw: export DISPLAY=:0.0
2018-11-24T15:11:55Z pjb: export PS1='[\u@\h $(case "$DISPLAY" in (*/*) basename "$DISPLAY" ;; (*) echo "$DISPLAY" ;; esac) \W]$ '
2018-11-24T15:12:08Z siraben: Is there an R5RS-conforming Scheme implementation in C without any linking of new libraries?
2018-11-24T15:16:47Z edw: pjb: I've spent most of the last twenty-five years of my life avoiding X11, but doesn't `:0.0` denote an X11 server running locally? Random googling suggested that I try `DISPLAY= mit-scheme' to force console' -- which stil doesn't work.
2018-11-24T15:17:40Z edw: I've found a message about this in the archives where Riastradh suggests installing ncurses-dev package or similar and rebuilding, which is what I'm doing at the moment.
2018-11-24T15:20:24Z rain1: Riastradh, ify ou're reading this.. perhaps a normal trampoline is better(?). I was just working through the idea of using exceptions somehow to simulate tail calls
2018-11-24T15:20:27Z rain1: this was the best i came up with
2018-11-24T15:21:19Z rain1: [[\x.b]] = \x.\().[[b]]   and  tail calls [[(f x)]] = throw(f(x)); non tail call [[(f x)]] = INVOKE(f(x))
2018-11-24T15:21:53Z rain1: so every non-tail call site has an INVOKE(thunk) = while(true}{try{return thunk()}catch(e){thunk=e;}}
2018-11-24T15:22:09Z edw: pjb: Riastradh's advice (from > eight years ago) at <https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/mit-scheme-devel/2010-04/msg00012.html> worked.
2018-11-24T15:23:02Z rain1: siraben: tinyscheme might fit that
2018-11-24T15:31:20Z siraben: rain1:  I have tinyscheme installed, although it is quite limited.  Doesn't implement a lot of R5RS
2018-11-24T15:31:41Z rain1: ah that sucks!
2018-11-24T15:31:50Z rain1: there may not be such a scheem
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2018-11-24T15:45:10Z edw: siraben: Chibi doesn't have (or needn't have) many external dependencies and aside from some irritating R5RS+-isms (case sensitivity) may fit the bill.
2018-11-24T15:45:31Z edw: The Makefile is a bear though.
2018-11-24T15:45:41Z Riastradh: What's wrong with the makefile?
2018-11-24T15:46:35Z edw: qu1j0t3 and I have failed to adapt it to build targets that the README suggests are supported, namely emscripten and iOS.
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2018-11-24T15:47:37Z edw: One is entirely entitled to blame the craftspeople, not the tools, of course.
2018-11-24T15:49:44Z Riastradh: What did you try?  What does `make PLATFORM=emscripten SEXP_USE_DL=0' do?
2018-11-24T15:49:52Z Riastradh: (I haven't tried this, just wondering.)
2018-11-24T15:52:15Z edw: I was the iOS guy; jcowan was helping qu1j0t3 with some "disabling dynamic libraries" issues the other day. Recall your "compile-time options are for shitty software" (paraphrasing) comment?
2018-11-24T15:52:22Z qu1j0t3: not me
2018-11-24T15:52:42Z edw: "Don't blame me!"
2018-11-24T15:52:44Z edw: :P
2018-11-24T15:52:54Z qu1j0t3: i wasn't involved. jcowan must have been helpign someone else.
2018-11-24T15:52:55Z edw: Sorry, can't recall who it was.
2018-11-24T15:53:06Z qu1j0t3: np
2018-11-24T15:53:32Z xkapastel: it was me
2018-11-24T15:53:34Z edw: It was xkapastel. (Just consulted history.(
2018-11-24T16:07:13Z jcowan: yes, although I don't think I was much help
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2018-11-24T16:23:05Z jcowan: Unfortunately I can't build for emscripten on this box because you need to do a static build, and crt0.o isn't available
2018-11-24T16:24:31Z jcowan: I suppose I could fire up my AWS instance
2018-11-24T16:25:10Z jcowan: but emscripten, like Plan 9, requires a special build process
2018-11-24T16:25:37Z jcowan: on Plan 9, just type 'mk' (native make) and all is well, I've tried it
2018-11-24T16:29:36Z rain1: it seems that there is demand for a scheme that doesn't really exist as far as i can tell
2018-11-24T16:30:41Z Riastradh: s/scheme/world/1
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2018-11-24T16:42:12Z jcowan: Amen
2018-11-24T16:49:27Z amz3: what is that scheme that is in demande?
2018-11-24T16:50:07Z amz3: one that can be compiled using emscripten?
2018-11-24T16:50:13Z wasamasa: I suspect siraben just has issues compiling chibi on something non-standard
2018-11-24T16:51:07Z wasamasa: the problem I see here is that plenty of language implementations in C make use of things not guaranteed by the standard
2018-11-24T16:52:42Z wasamasa: such as that pointers are integer-like
2018-11-24T16:53:53Z wasamasa: there's at least one implementation of C where this is not the case
2018-11-24T16:56:23Z ecraven: which one?
2018-11-24T16:56:51Z wasamasa: the one implemented on top of lisp
2018-11-24T16:57:15Z ecraven: the symbolics C compiler?
2018-11-24T16:57:29Z wasamasa: yes
2018-11-24T16:57:40Z wasamasa: it's quite funny code
2018-11-24T16:58:25Z ecraven: I never looked at the actual code ;) just heard it is an actual full-blown C compiler that was used to run actual C software ;)
2018-11-24T16:58:48Z ecraven: is it more of an interpreter, or does it compile to actual lisp machine assembly?
2018-11-24T16:59:05Z wasamasa: all I've looked at is the lisp runtime that makes pointers work
2018-11-24T16:59:36Z wasamasa: https://begriffs.com/posts/2018-11-15-c-portability.html
2018-11-24T16:59:54Z wasamasa: > Targeting the Symbolics Lisp machine required some creativity. For instance, a pointer is represented as a pair consisting of a reference to a list and a numerical offset into the list. In particular, the NULL pointer is <NIL, 0>, basically a NIL list with no offset. Certainly not a bitwise zero integral value.
2018-11-24T17:00:07Z ecraven: I read that a few days ago ;)
2018-11-24T17:00:35Z wasamasa: the thing I've looked at uses an offset into an array though
2018-11-24T17:00:36Z ecraven: (unrelated, but I finally ordered my PiDP-11 ;) I wish they made a PiDP-10, to run old lisps on :P)
2018-11-24T17:01:14Z ecraven: might actually be an interesting way to develop C code, it would run slower, but you could get all sorts of assertions and guards you don't normally get
2018-11-24T17:03:32Z wasamasa: I dunno, I run into plenty of code not foreseeing what a future version of gcc would do to it
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2018-11-24T17:38:50Z jcowan: ecraven: Real PDP-10 weenies say the emulator is remarkably true, except of course it runs way too fast.
2018-11-24T17:39:48Z jcowan: specifically the late Marc Crispin, inventor of UTF-9 and UTF-18
2018-11-24T17:40:34Z jcowan: this is KLH-10 I'm referring to
2018-11-24T17:43:09Z jcowan: I can personally confirm that the SIMH emulation of a PDP-8 is awesomesauce
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2018-11-24T18:10:51Z jcowan: hmm, was looking at the PDP-10 documentation and skimming through the Algol 60 manual (Algol 60 being one of the roots of Scheme)
2018-11-24T18:11:07Z jcowan: and found something very interesting in the chapter on strings
2018-11-24T18:11:47Z jcowan: in pure A60, strings are very limited: there are string constants and variables of type string, but no operations on them; in the end you have to pass them to a non-Algol procedure such as I/O or whatever your implementation may have
2018-11-24T18:12:01Z jcowan: In 10A60, however, strings have a cdr!
2018-11-24T18:12:44Z wasamasa: 10A60?
2018-11-24T18:12:55Z jcowan: PDP-10 Algol 60
2018-11-24T18:13:32Z jcowan: by default the cdr of a string is nil, but you have cdr and set-cdr! operators, and indexing into the string goes down the cdr chain.
2018-11-24T18:14:07Z jcowan: this is something between conventional strings and ropes (which for Lisp weenies are trees whose leaves are conventional strings)
2018-11-24T18:14:21Z jcowan: I have never seen anything quite like this before, however
2018-11-24T18:16:55Z jcowan: it means that strings, like lists, can share their tails
2018-11-24T18:22:22Z ggole: Sort of like a CDR coded list, but specialised for containing chars
2018-11-24T18:23:54Z jcowan: Yes
2018-11-24T18:25:11Z jcowan: This Algol also extends the comparison ops to strings, which is natural, and likewise subscripting syntax, which uses []
2018-11-24T18:26:01Z jcowan: thanks to the PDP-11's ability to handle different byte sizes, you can set that when you create a string, though 7 bits is the default
2018-11-24T18:26:08Z jcowan: s/11/10
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2018-11-24T19:12:06Z jcowan: Wow. The PDP-10 implementation also takes the strict view of 'own' variables.
2018-11-24T19:16:10Z jcowan: No other language has anything like it
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2018-11-24T20:10:15Z Riastradh: own?
2018-11-24T20:11:42Z jcowan: The simplest understanding of own variable is that they are like C static variables: accessible only from their scope (global or local) but retaining their value between calls.
2018-11-24T20:12:35Z jcowan: However, a strict interpretation of R0RA and R1RA says that a recursive call (direct or indirect) creates a new own variable which keeps its value between other recursive calls at that level
2018-11-24T20:13:26Z jcowan: thus (define (f) (own x) ... (f) ... (f) ...) will cause any assignment to x during the first recursive call to be accessible to the second recursive call, but not outside it
2018-11-24T20:14:27Z Riastradh: Wacky.
2018-11-24T20:14:30Z qu1j0t3: is there a good use case?
2018-11-24T20:14:31Z jcowan: furthermore, if x is of type array and its bounds depend on other arguments to the procedure (which is permitted), then the own variable will be reshaped every time the bounds change.
2018-11-24T20:15:05Z edw: You think that was a thoughtful, reasoned, intentional implication of the standard or more like an awkward corner case?
2018-11-24T20:15:17Z jcowan: I think it is like call-by-name, an accidental consequence of the way the report was written, namely that procedure call is to be interpreted as inlining (with alphatizing of call-by value variables)
2018-11-24T20:15:57Z jcowan: in principle one could write an a60 interpreter that lazily inlined a procedure definition into the AST on every call, but I don't know that anyone ever has
2018-11-24T20:16:20Z jcowan: s/variables/arguments
2018-11-24T20:17:45Z jcowan: People implemented call by name with thunks that return a pointer (so you can assign to a call-by-name parameter provided the actual argument is an lvalue) but often skipped dynamic own, especially dynamic own arrays, so it could be fairly safely removed
2018-11-24T20:18:45Z jcowan: This was the first use of _thunk_, by the way: originally defined as "the past participle of _think_ at 4 AM".
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2018-11-24T22:23:45Z Riastradh: foof: Except for a tiny problem with libc's long double softfloat (something gets the low and high words reversed, oops), `make test' passes on NetBSD-current/aarch64, with all the patches I sent you applied.
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2018-11-24T22:59:18Z ecraven: jcowan: thanks, very interesting!
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2018-11-25T16:23:09Z edw: I just became aware of kite.com via the BBEdit mailing list. It appears to be allow one to automatically write Python using StackOverflow as a corpus for a hidden Markov model. We are doomed, I say.
2018-11-25T16:23:31Z edw: s/ be//
2018-11-25T16:27:37Z xkapastel: that's really cool
2018-11-25T16:28:25Z xkapastel: i've also seen that approach for javascript type inference
2018-11-25T16:29:36Z xkapastel: https://www.inf.ethz.ch/news-and-events/spotlights/mvechev-jsnice.html
2018-11-25T16:39:53Z amz3:  /join #scheme
2018-11-25T16:39:54Z amz3: oops
2018-11-25T16:40:15Z amz3: why were you talking about emscripten?
2018-11-25T16:40:32Z amz3: I mean did anybody succeed at compiling a scheme using emsdk?
2018-11-25T16:40:48Z edw: I see it as a sign of the End Times, but tastes differ, xkapastel. For something that I find far more appealing: <https://github.com/jonase/kibit>
2018-11-25T16:41:15Z xkapastel: amz3: i was trying to make chibi work with wasm a few days ago but i gave up
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2018-11-25T16:41:30Z edw: It looks for bad code smells and suggests (and performs IIRC) improvements on Clojure projects.
2018-11-25T16:41:46Z amz3: xkapastel: what made you give up?
2018-11-25T16:41:53Z xkapastel: edw: that's also very cool, and i view those two things as complementary
2018-11-25T16:42:42Z xkapastel: amz3: the build instructions were wrong on their face, or at least are missing subtlety
2018-11-25T16:42:42Z edw: xkapastel: I see google-driven development as a Very Bad Thing and Kite appears to automate it.
2018-11-25T16:42:48Z xkapastel: for example, it says "uncomment this to disable this feature"
2018-11-25T16:42:56Z xkapastel: so you uncomment it, and the build just doesn't work at all
2018-11-25T16:43:03Z xkapastel: why didn't it just remove the feature? what else do i need to do?
2018-11-25T16:43:08Z xkapastel: it's not clear how to get the makefile to do what you want
2018-11-25T16:43:21Z amz3: xkapastel: but the README says just run: make js
2018-11-25T16:43:30Z xkapastel: okay but i want wasm, does that give me wasm?
2018-11-25T16:43:38Z xkapastel: the readme never mentioned wasm
2018-11-25T16:43:45Z amz3: wasm is already a thing?
2018-11-25T16:43:48Z xkapastel: ...yes
2018-11-25T16:44:08Z xkapastel: i imagine chibi will actually build on wasm, but i can't be bothered to figure it out without docs
2018-11-25T16:48:03Z amz3: this morning I did a demo app of pypy compiled with emsdk
2018-11-25T16:48:11Z amz3: I mean
2018-11-25T16:48:16Z amz3: pypy targetting asm.js
2018-11-25T16:48:31Z amz3: It's not using emsdk I think
2018-11-25T16:48:47Z amz3: anyway, I willing to put some effort into this, asm.js seems fine to me.
2018-11-25T16:48:54Z amz3: what's the problem with asm.js?
2018-11-25T16:49:05Z xkapastel: the problem is why aren't you using webassembly?
2018-11-25T16:49:27Z amz3: because I don't know how to use it, yet...
2018-11-25T16:49:36Z amz3: emsdk can target wasm right?
2018-11-25T16:49:51Z xkapastel: yes
2018-11-25T16:50:31Z xkapastel: again, i'm not saying it's impossibly difficult, but you'd need to be familiar with c and make and all that and i'd rather just use something in rust where wasm is a part of the compiler
2018-11-25T16:51:51Z amz3: I'd rather just use scheme
2018-11-25T16:52:14Z amz3: anyway I will dive into chibi, seems like it support r7rs-small
2018-11-25T16:52:35Z xkapastel: just use scheme for what? to implement scheme?
2018-11-25T16:52:40Z amz3: no
2018-11-25T16:52:48Z amz3: to create an application
2018-11-25T16:52:57Z xkapastel: okay, but you need a scheme runtime first
2018-11-25T16:53:06Z xkapastel: it's weird to say just use scheme, there's a reason chibi is using c
2018-11-25T16:55:12Z amz3: in the browser you mean?
2018-11-25T16:56:16Z amz3: I don't understand your last statment
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2018-11-25T17:03:42Z edw: xkapastel: You can just run your app in chibi if you want. On a UNIX-like machine. Not everything is an iOS or Android app or a single-page web app.
2018-11-25T17:04:06Z edw: amz3: Was that your point?
2018-11-25T17:04:23Z xkapastel: edw: that's a really strange thing to say. clearly i already thought about that and decided to target e.g. android or the web
2018-11-25T17:05:57Z edw: I'm not talking about your plans, but amz3's. You said, "but *you* need a scheme runtime first."
2018-11-25T17:06:50Z edw: And that confused amz3 if I understand him correctly.
2018-11-25T17:06:58Z edw: Or her or whoever.
2018-11-25T17:12:06Z amz3: I misunderstand something, anyway, I am digging this emsdk thing with chibi using git emsdk. Indeed there is bug in the build process, it doesn't find the correct clang
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2018-11-25T17:19:17Z xkapastel: edw: i actually think the kite model should be a part of language runtimes
2018-11-25T17:19:38Z xkapastel: as in, imagine if a REPL was always analyzing your code for statistical patterns
2018-11-25T17:19:57Z xkapastel: and not just sitting there accepting input, but also pushing suggestions and visualizations to you
2018-11-25T17:20:19Z xkapastel: kibit is the same idea, but it just uses logic instead of probability theory
2018-11-25T17:20:52Z xkapastel: arguably probability theory is just generalized logic though, so i don't really see the fundamental problem with "google driven development"
2018-11-25T17:21:24Z edw: xkapastel: If the extant code in a programming language is filled with a shit-tonne of boilerplate, it's a sign that it's a poor language or has crappy libraries.
2018-11-25T17:21:38Z xkapastel: okay, let's just imagine kite uses scheme instead of python
2018-11-25T17:21:42Z xkapastel: do you still have a problem with it?
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2018-11-25T17:22:34Z xkapastel: i ask because i am intending to build something quite like this and i've seen people express sentiments similar to yours before
2018-11-25T17:23:42Z edw: xkapastel: Yes, because if it knows what keyboard pounding you should be doing, it stands to reason there should be a procedure or macro for that.
2018-11-25T17:23:58Z xkapastel: imagine this was the mechanism by which macros were written
2018-11-25T17:24:18Z xkapastel: what if it just did the analysis on stackexchange and just wrote a bunch of macros
2018-11-25T17:24:26Z edw: OK, now we're getting somewhere.
2018-11-25T17:25:05Z edw: And then it becomes kibit but it knows how to create new patterns and the macros/procs to back them up.
2018-11-25T17:28:22Z xkapastel: edw: does this also trigger your sense of doom? https://github.com/webyrd/Barliman
2018-11-25T17:28:36Z xkapastel: another scheme project, maybe you're familiar with it
2018-11-25T17:29:06Z edw: Basically, I think Kite is a tool for making it easier for you to commit DailyWTF-style atrocities, whereas we need a tool that sees that you're writing (display 1) (display 2) (display 3) ... and says, yo, use a loop.
2018-11-25T17:29:52Z edw: First of all, it begins with a quote, which is good hipster programmer style, so my guard is already up.
2018-11-25T17:29:57Z edw: The readme, that is.
2018-11-25T17:35:51Z edw: xkapastel: It seems to depend on unit tests. Or tests of some sort. I'm cooking lunch atm but will try to marshall more disdainful feedback in a few minutes.
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2018-11-25T17:45:10Z rain1: hi guys
2018-11-25T17:46:09Z edw: G'day.
2018-11-25T17:47:34Z Zipheir: o/
2018-11-25T17:52:24Z amz3: https://screenshots.firefox.com/G7v6S5zNo523DeHu/localhost
2018-11-25T17:52:38Z amz3: chibi can be made to work, there is few things to workaround
2018-11-25T17:52:56Z amz3: both in chibi support of emsdk and in emsdk build system
2018-11-25T17:56:38Z xkapastel: oh snap you did it
2018-11-25T17:56:42Z xkapastel: amz3: great job :)
2018-11-25T17:58:03Z edw: xkapastel: Watching the Barliman video. Writing the patterns (tests) that Barliman uses to synthesize a function require no less intellectual gruntwork than writing the function.
2018-11-25T17:58:24Z edw: s/require/requires/
2018-11-25T17:58:57Z xkapastel: that's certainly not true in the general case
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2018-11-25T17:59:33Z xkapastel: there is a basic asymmetry between being able to produce a valid answer and being able to determine whether an answer is valid, for most interesting problems
2018-11-25T18:01:38Z xkapastel: maybe barlimann is not good enough to do it without handholding, is the real issue here
2018-11-25T18:01:53Z xkapastel: but there are other approaches, most of them derivatives of google driven development :)
2018-11-25T18:01:57Z edw: In the video, one of the presenters says, "OK, here we're going to use 'map'. How does he know to use `map'? Because he understands the intellectual model of list processing that is presented in SRFI-1 (and Clojure etc.)
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2018-11-25T18:04:43Z xkapastel: just imagine what kite, kibit and barlimann could do if there were actually just one program
2018-11-25T18:04:49Z xkapastel: they*
2018-11-25T18:05:34Z amz3: xkapastel: did you use a prebuilt binary for emsdk ?
2018-11-25T18:05:50Z xkapastel: i never got that far, uncommenting stuff in chibi broke the build
2018-11-25T18:06:00Z xkapastel: i gave up when i realized the instructions were not correct
2018-11-25T18:06:19Z xkapastel: did you write the fix up?
2018-11-25T18:06:35Z edw: I have tutored students and junior programmers in work settings and they will want to use Barliman until they get the desired output. And then they'll move on and they'll understand nothing. There's a place for scripting, but there's a better tool than a general-purpose programming language for what is basically instantiating recipes.
2018-11-25T18:06:53Z xkapastel: edw: i just think you're taking too principled a stand here
2018-11-25T18:07:10Z xkapastel: i don't know why i wouldn't have `barliman-mode` on all the time regardless of anyone's opinion on understanding
2018-11-25T18:07:16Z xkapastel: i don't have to do what it says
2018-11-25T18:07:54Z amz3: I will
2018-11-25T18:08:08Z xkapastel: i'm *already* looking at stackexchange for help, but i don't feel compelled to blindly copy/paste from it
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2018-11-25T18:08:12Z xkapastel: it's just another thing to consider
2018-11-25T18:08:25Z wasamasa: I wonder whether this discussion were any different if it was smalltalk, not scheme
2018-11-25T18:08:44Z xkapastel: oh, i saw the pharo talk at lambdaconf
2018-11-25T18:08:57Z xkapastel: yes, smalltalkers would be all over this i feel
2018-11-25T18:09:01Z edw: xkapastel: Commercial reality *is* the dystopia I outlined. It is here. I would google the variable names I found in contractors' code and very often I could find the block of code they copied and pasted from StackOverflow.
2018-11-25T18:09:52Z xkapastel: i don't really care what bad developers do. a good developer would be better with a tool like this
2018-11-25T18:10:37Z xkapastel: (let's just assume for a minute the year is 2030 and it actually works kind of okay)
2018-11-25T18:10:57Z xkapastel: it's probably not good enough to be usable right now, but the idea is great
2018-11-25T18:11:47Z edw: I do care about bad programmers because they make the world worse for good programmers.
2018-11-25T18:12:08Z xkapastel: do they?
2018-11-25T18:12:41Z xkapastel: there's awful things happening in e.g. node.js right now, but i don't feel worried about it
2018-11-25T18:12:53Z ecraven: edw: well, having bad programmers is what actually *makes* others good programmers :D if everyone were good, many of the good ones would then be bad
2018-11-25T18:13:01Z edw: OMG I was just going to mention node.
2018-11-25T18:13:10Z ecraven: xkapastel: what kind of things? do you mean npm or actual node.js?
2018-11-25T18:13:43Z edw: There is the node-typical complete disregard for the size or number of transitive dependencies thing.
2018-11-25T18:14:00Z xkapastel: i'm just picking on javascript. just imagine whatever group of people you want, who might just copy and paste from the stackexchange aI
2018-11-25T18:14:03Z ecraven: yes, left-pad and friends
2018-11-25T18:14:06Z xkapastel: stackexchange AI*
2018-11-25T18:14:07Z edw: There is the node-typical one-line-of-code module thing.
2018-11-25T18:14:29Z edw: There is rhe node-typical poorly-rewrite-existing-tools thing.
2018-11-25T18:14:54Z ecraven: I don't think Scheme is protected from that, many useful Scheme functions are one-liners, that just aren't part of the standard... if we were less spread out, we might create something like npm that provides ready access to those one-liners
2018-11-25T18:15:08Z ecraven: hehe, I rewrite everything I can in Scheme :P
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2018-11-25T18:15:40Z edw: ecraven: I'm not against one-line functions. I'm against one-line SRFI implementations, I guess.
2018-11-25T18:16:20Z Zipheir: Because Node.js is an enormous fad language and everything must be rewritten whenever a new enormous fad language appears.
2018-11-25T18:17:03Z amz3: xkapastel: checkout my branch https://github.com/ashinn/chibi-scheme/pull/498
2018-11-25T18:17:12Z jcowan: edw: Believe me, there are none of those.  Some SRFIs define just one macro, but not in one line.
2018-11-25T18:17:36Z edw: jcowan: Exactly. Though RECEIVE...
2018-11-25T18:18:12Z jcowan: xkapastel: If' you are serious about this, file an issue at github/ashinn/chibi-scheme or join the mailing list at chibi-scheme@googlegroups.com.  You will get answers, possibly from The Foofster himself.
2018-11-25T18:18:30Z ecraven: edw: my point is, if the *standard* doesn't provide it, something else will (be that srfis, some repository, or whatever)
2018-11-25T18:18:48Z jcowan: Discussing it on a general-purpose Scheme channel isn't going to get you much further, except by accident.
2018-11-25T18:18:51Z xkapastel: amz3: so `make js` builds wasm?
2018-11-25T18:18:56Z xkapastel: jcowan: serious about what?
2018-11-25T18:19:08Z xkapastel: it seems to have gotten pretty far already
2018-11-25T18:19:19Z jcowan: Getting the static build working, having Chibi generate asm.js or wasm, etc.
2018-11-25T18:19:30Z amz3: xkapastel: if you fix the emsdk like explained in the pull requests, yes. with the fixes I added, the demo works like charm.
2018-11-25T18:19:31Z xkapastel: i mean, i wasn't doing anything
2018-11-25T18:19:38Z xkapastel: amz3 just started working on it
2018-11-25T18:19:48Z xkapastel: see, it seems to be done
2018-11-25T18:20:11Z amz3: now, I don't know what you want to achieve
2018-11-25T18:20:18Z amz3: s/now/that said/
2018-11-25T18:20:36Z xkapastel: generating a `.wasm` file is a good start
2018-11-25T18:21:12Z amz3: https://hastebin.com/adigufegut.scm
2018-11-25T18:22:09Z edw: ecraven: I don't know what you're trying to disagree with. I have seen Node.js code in production that used modules that required more config management cruft than the single-line function implementation.
2018-11-25T18:22:54Z edw: I have met multiple Node.js "full stack engineers" who didn't know what make(1) was.
2018-11-25T18:23:04Z jcowan: Not to mention that node module I read about that contains the complete works of Shakespeare in it.
2018-11-25T18:23:12Z jcowan: (forgot its name, not being a node guy)
2018-11-25T18:23:32Z xkapastel: the nlp compromise stuff?
2018-11-25T18:23:40Z xkapastel: or maybe not that
2018-11-25T18:23:44Z jcowan: But why should they know what make is?  Do you know what iamspzp is?
2018-11-25T18:23:46Z xkapastel: i guess they wouldn't do that since they're not statistical
2018-11-25T18:23:54Z jcowan: sorry, imaspzp
2018-11-25T18:24:07Z xkapastel: i don't see what's bad about including data in a module though, it makes it easy to distribute
2018-11-25T18:24:17Z edw: The bad ideas accumulate. The next fad language (hat-tip Zipheir) will have that, and every dumb idea from Ruby/RoR and PHP.
2018-11-25T18:24:40Z xkapastel: what's that website with all the free, old books? i could imagine a module containing most things from that, or in categories, along with an api to query it
2018-11-25T18:24:58Z edw: xkapastel: What is the role of an operating system distribution, then?
2018-11-25T18:25:09Z wasamasa: xkapastel: there is already one containing the top 10000 words of the english language
2018-11-25T18:25:09Z xkapastel: i don't know. maybe there shouldn't be one
2018-11-25T18:25:15Z edw: Is it the node microkernel?
2018-11-25T18:25:17Z xkapastel: wasamasa: yeah that's nlp compromise
2018-11-25T18:25:29Z wasamasa: it's not about nlp though :P
2018-11-25T18:25:36Z xkapastel: well, nlp compromise would do the same thing
2018-11-25T18:25:39Z xkapastel: since you need it do to nlp
2018-11-25T18:25:56Z xkapastel: the author gave a talk like "english as a module"
2018-11-25T18:26:03Z edw: Yes, let's write all software in the language that was designed and implemented in two weeks in response to a press release.
2018-11-25T18:26:06Z jcowan: (Iamspzp is a z/OS (mainframe) tool for patching binaries when the source has been lost.  Stands for "I'm a super zap")
2018-11-25T18:26:16Z wasamasa: xkapastel: guess what else you'd need such a list for
2018-11-25T18:26:27Z ecraven: the one point where I do agree with the node people is that JS has become somewhat of a universal language, working in the browser and server-side :-/
2018-11-25T18:26:36Z xkapastel: wasamasa: i really can't. what else?
2018-11-25T18:26:39Z jcowan: Eh, Lisp is the language that some student decided to implement even though his prof thought it was impossible.
2018-11-25T18:26:43Z wasamasa: xkapastel: checking for weak passwords
2018-11-25T18:26:44Z ecraven: it is useful to be able to run the same code on both ends
2018-11-25T18:26:59Z edw: I'll take that one any day, jcowan.
2018-11-25T18:27:15Z wasamasa: xkapastel: https://github.com/dropbox/zxcvbn
2018-11-25T18:27:46Z wasamasa: not sure whether it's 10000, but emacs agrees that it's way too many as grep slows down to a crawl
2018-11-25T18:29:02Z jcowan: hey hey hey, one vote has come in for Tangerine Edition!
2018-11-25T18:29:11Z xkapastel: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WuPVS2tCg8s
2018-11-25T18:29:12Z jcowan: I suppose I should post here
2018-11-25T18:29:14Z xkapastel: this is what i was thinking of
2018-11-25T18:29:33Z jcowan: Tangerine Edition ballot:  https://docs.google.com/forms/d/1XQNvIzijmCxHgnaRq31u9MogloG0YWDaWKBs-J9CCTA
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2018-11-25T18:30:01Z jcowan: Orange Edition straw poll:  https://docs.google.com/forms/d/1qn1Ut7tR5bzXyWOrxpbLu5O7rJJ5_m2HhAeG8YqfgGI/
2018-11-25T18:31:00Z amz3: voting alone requires a lot of knowledge, tx for doing that.
2018-11-25T18:32:54Z edw: jcowan: Have keyword objects been assigned a color?
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2018-11-25T18:33:13Z amz3: knowledge that I don't have.
2018-11-25T18:33:40Z Riastradh: jcowan: o/` No matter what it is or who commenced it -- I'm against it! o/`
2018-11-25T18:35:17Z Zipheir: And even when you've changed it or condensed it...
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2018-11-25T18:36:53Z amz3: do you know a json library that is compatible with chibi, my search-fu is failing me
2018-11-25T18:36:55Z amz3: ?
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2018-11-25T18:38:42Z edw: amz3: There is a pretty good parser combinators module built into chibi...
2018-11-25T18:40:02Z edw: amz3: You just gave me a goal for the day.
2018-11-25T18:40:36Z amz3: oh
2018-11-25T18:42:21Z Riastradh: How about a lalr parser generator?  The json grammar is a 15-line lalr cfg, including extra rules for error reporting.
2018-11-25T18:43:00Z Riastradh: Sorry, miscounted, 20-line.
2018-11-25T18:44:53Z Riastradh: (counting from https://github.com/probcomp/Venturecxx/blob/master/python/lib/parser/venture_script/grammar.y, which has json notation embedded in a larger programming language syntax)
2018-11-25T18:45:17Z jcowan chuckles.
2018-11-25T18:46:42Z rain1: should we make a portable LALR parser generator macro
2018-11-25T18:46:48Z Riastradh: yesplz
2018-11-25T18:47:41Z Riastradh: LALR parsers are great and I wish I had learned to appreciate them a decade ago when I had the patience to do something like that.
2018-11-25T18:47:59Z rain1: https://github.com/rain-1/racket-peg/blob/master/tests/test-json.rkt are you sure this isn't good enough?
2018-11-25T18:48:44Z Riastradh: Can you prove it terminates in linear time?
2018-11-25T18:49:01Z Riastradh: Does it report ambiguity to you?
2018-11-25T18:49:05Z rain1: no (it's not even linear time)
2018-11-25T18:49:18Z rain1: given ambiguity it biases towards the first option
2018-11-25T18:49:29Z Riastradh: For LALR parsers the answer to both is yes.
2018-11-25T18:49:38Z rain1: that is pretty nice!
2018-11-25T18:50:43Z Riastradh: Any trouble -- cost of a complicated grammar, ambiguity, &c. -- is reported up front during development; then the parser chomps through the input one token at a time (with one token of lookahead) never backtracking and taking a linear number of chomps.
2018-11-25T18:52:55Z edw: Zarathustra, er, Riastradh, you speak glowingly of this LALR parser. Can you show us one written in Scheme that we might use?
2018-11-25T18:53:26Z edw: There is this: <http://wiki.call-cc.org/eggref/5/lalr>.
2018-11-25T18:53:46Z edw: And this: <https://github.com/schemeway/lalr-scm>.
2018-11-25T18:54:08Z jcowan: edw: Anything non-portable is in Green.
2018-11-25T18:54:25Z rain1: so would you always use LALR(1) [on tokenized inpuit]? or would you want a full LALR(k) implementation
2018-11-25T18:54:35Z jcowan: However, keyword-let (which requires keywords to be quoted) will probably be in Yellow.
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2018-11-25T18:55:04Z edw: jcowan: Merci.
2018-11-25T18:56:19Z wasamasa: edw: the latter has quite a number of cond-expands, except for chibi of course
2018-11-25T18:56:24Z rain1: https://github.com/schemeway/lalr-scm/blob/master/lalr.scm   wow it runs in  many schemes
2018-11-25T18:56:33Z wasamasa: big mystery: why does it even define BITS-PER-WORD
2018-11-25T18:57:42Z edw: From <https://code.google.com/archive/p/lalr-scm/>: "much of the code is a direct translation from C to Scheme of the Bison sources."
2018-11-25T18:57:47Z wasamasa: ouch
2018-11-25T18:58:02Z wasamasa: using a vector for integer bit twiddling feels just wrong
2018-11-25T18:59:12Z edw: Linear...with a very large coefficient?
2018-11-25T19:00:01Z rain1: packrat parsers are linear like kN with N input length, k number of production rules
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2018-11-25T19:02:14Z Zipheir: Packrat is an interesting technique.
2018-11-25T19:03:37Z Zipheir: (I just discovered https://wiki.call-cc.org/eggref/4/genturfahi, which _seems_ to be usable for input other than Lojban...)
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2018-11-25T19:20:07Z jcowan: Riastradh: I forgot to save that algorithm you gave me for evenly distributed random floats given random bits.  Can you repaste it, or repeat it, or email me at cowan@ccil.org with it?  Thanks.
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2018-11-25T19:34:33Z rain1: http://www.rosettacode.org/wiki/Babbage_problem#Scheme I added the solution here
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2018-11-25T19:56:43Z amz3: chibi ftw!
2018-11-25T19:57:47Z edw: amz3: You still need a JSON parser?
2018-11-25T19:58:03Z amz3: yes, why?
2018-11-25T19:58:06Z amz3: you did it?
2018-11-25T19:58:23Z edw: Well the first 95% of one.
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2018-11-25T20:00:10Z qu1j0t3: jcowan: pretty sure i kept a copy of that, so failing Riastradh, I can probably send a copy
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2018-11-25T20:08:42Z edw: amz3: "JSON parsing in Chibi Scheme using combinators": <https://gist.github.com/edw/5a2118bb5a3b6ebdac7a6e81e49adce3>
2018-11-25T20:09:10Z amz3: that was quick :)
2018-11-25T20:09:52Z amz3: thanks a lot!
2018-11-25T20:10:09Z edw: You're welcome. Plesse consult the list of bugs.
2018-11-25T20:10:23Z edw: I'll stick it in a repo and take pull requests.
2018-11-25T20:11:24Z amz3: what do you mean by "hash tables are not constructured"?
2018-11-25T20:11:52Z amz3: you do not use "cons"
2018-11-25T20:12:30Z edw: If you look at the output, I turn hash entries into lists of lists not into SRFI-whatever hash tables -- or alists. Alists prob wouldve been better. I can fix that.
2018-11-25T20:12:58Z amz3: ok that is what I want actually
2018-11-25T20:12:58Z edw: Lemme stick this in a repo so I can hack on it less unstructuredly.
2018-11-25T20:13:14Z amz3: edw: add a license, so that I can credit it properly
2018-11-25T20:13:24Z amz3: I need to go to sleep, tx again!
2018-11-25T20:13:47Z edw: amz3: It'll be in github/thunknyc/chibi-json
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2018-11-25T20:22:26Z Riastradh: edw: I don't know, I haven't done any LALR parsing in Scheme.  In C there's yacc and lemon; in Python I've used lemonade.
2018-11-25T20:23:46Z edw: In Clojure I've used Instaparse fairly extensively. And now, Chibi's parser combinators,
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2018-11-25T20:29:31Z rain1: I am writing a parser by hand
2018-11-25T20:29:33Z rain1: it's pretty hard...
2018-11-25T20:29:39Z Riastradh: I fixed a few bugs in lemonade, including forward-porting some bug fixes in lemon from which lemonade was derived; the result is at <https://github.com/probcomp/Venturecxx/tree/master/external/lemonade>.
2018-11-25T20:29:44Z rain1: I feel like I'm not doing this the best way, maybe somebody can review my code
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2018-11-25T20:36:37Z Riastradh: Writing parsers by hand is usually not the best way.
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2018-11-25T20:48:10Z rain1: http://www.rosettacode.org/wiki/Brace_expansion#Scheme
2018-11-25T20:48:19Z rain1: if you got any ideas to improve iti tell me
2018-11-25T20:48:32Z rain1: or if you can solve this problem in a different  way it would be interesting to see
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2018-11-25T21:01:21Z edw: rain1: thoughtful use of SRFI-1 would probably compact that code to 10% its current size.
2018-11-25T21:01:58Z edw: The problem is one of {folding,reducing,mapping}.
2018-11-25T21:02:03Z rain1: thanks
2018-11-25T21:02:51Z sethalves quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
2018-11-25T21:03:24Z rain1: wait
2018-11-25T21:03:31Z rain1: 10% the size or subtract 10% of its size?
2018-11-25T21:04:05Z edw: It's just a wild-ass guess but I would say -90% or 10% of original.
2018-11-25T21:04:22Z edw: At least -50%.
2018-11-25T21:04:23Z rain1: wow. i would have to see that to believe it
2018-11-25T21:04:38Z rain1: I know a coulpe of the functions are in srfi-1 but hm...
2018-11-25T21:04:53Z edw: And it would make it readable. Right now it's just a shit-tonne of CARs and CDRs and CONSes.
2018-11-25T21:05:27Z rain1: XD
2018-11-25T21:05:31Z rain1: i tried my  best
2018-11-25T21:06:03Z rain1: I really appreciate the criticism and you taking a look though
2018-11-25T21:06:50Z edw: No problem! We all write/wrote code like thst. Does the site eval the code? Because if so SRFI-1 may not be available, but it would still be worth writing simply versions of fold, map, reduce, whatever to make your intent clear.
2018-11-25T21:07:09Z edw: I'd help but I'm writing amz3 a JSON parser at the moment.
2018-11-25T21:08:24Z rain1: the site doesn't eval the code
2018-11-25T21:08:49Z rain1: part of the reason I don't use srfi-1  is https://rain-1.github.io/scheme-srfi-1
2018-11-25T21:09:47Z edw: Again, it's not that hard to write e.g. MAP.
2018-11-25T21:15:34Z edw: I just typed this up. It doesn't support multiple list arguments but it can help communicate intent when you're writing something: <https://gist.github.com/edw/8cb326c0490be9b2f03f3472ab833f64>.
2018-11-25T21:16:26Z edw: I might write FOLD first and then implement MAP atop it if I were doing this for real. Think like the Primitive Technology Channel.
2018-11-25T21:17:07Z rain1: I love that channel
2018-11-25T21:17:10Z rain1: and that type of programming too
2018-11-25T21:17:47Z edw: Build a ladder of abstractions and then climb up it.
2018-11-25T21:18:31Z edw: Someday he's going to be building a pharmaceutical plant in a video. I think of it as the Bootstrap Civilization Channel.
2018-11-25T21:18:34Z rain1: definitely an actual parser would help a lot
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2018-11-25T21:19:08Z rain1: https://bootstrapping.miraheze.org/wiki/Main_Page there are some projects ongoing to bootstrap various compilers from very small codebases
2018-11-25T21:19:47Z edw: OMG you're tempting me here rain1... You don't need a parser for something this straightforward. I mean, pedantically, you're parsing, but let's not go crazy.
2018-11-25T21:20:02Z rain1: edw: but it would help a lot, right?
2018-11-25T21:20:13Z rain1: I was thinking about using my PEG parser for the {,} stuff
2018-11-25T21:20:27Z edw: Meh I don't think so. It's so freaking simple.
2018-11-25T21:20:38Z edw: That's it. I'm going in!
2018-11-25T21:20:47Z rain1: I cant wait to see what you come up with
2018-11-25T21:21:01Z edw: This may take a bit...
2018-11-25T21:21:14Z rain1: yeah it's a harder problem than I expected
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2018-11-25T21:25:20Z edw: rain1: <https://gist.github.com/edw/2742b829dea49b031a9291c7c03e8f7d>
2018-11-25T21:25:44Z rain1: ok that  was incrediblry disappointing XD
2018-11-25T21:26:23Z edw: That was for a purpose but yes I thought it might blow your mind.
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2018-11-25T22:02:48Z xkapastel: > Primitive Technology Channel
2018-11-25T22:02:51Z xkapastel: TIL
2018-11-25T22:03:00Z wasamasa: it's good
2018-11-25T22:03:12Z edw: TIL?
2018-11-25T22:03:14Z xkapastel: yeah it looked weird at first but i realized this is pretty interesting
2018-11-25T22:03:16Z xkapastel: today i learned
2018-11-25T22:03:21Z edw: Ah.
2018-11-25T22:04:10Z edw: TIL "TIL."
2018-11-25T22:04:12Z xkapastel: plus after climate change causes civilization to collapse this will be very handy
2018-11-25T22:04:24Z edw: ...to have on YouTube.
2018-11-25T22:04:34Z xkapastel: obviously i will back it up!
2018-11-25T22:04:36Z edw: Along with your Bitcoins.
2018-11-25T22:04:49Z xkapastel: hey, we're going to moon buddy
2018-11-25T22:05:31Z edw: Buying opportunity!
2018-11-25T22:05:46Z edw: I buy on the dips, loser!
2018-11-25T22:05:50Z xkapastel: there's a lisp blockchain project btw
2018-11-25T22:05:54Z xkapastel: first one i've seen
2018-11-25T22:06:01Z xkapastel: i imagine it got posted here recently
2018-11-25T22:06:17Z xkapastel: http://oscoin.io/radicle.html
2018-11-25T22:06:59Z xkapastel: at the very least i found out about http://pllab.is.ocha.ac.jp/~asai/Black/ from it
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2018-11-25T22:07:43Z xkapastel: > Black is an extension of Scheme with a reflective construct exec-at-metalevel. It executes its argument at the metalevel where the interpreter that executes user programs is running.
2018-11-25T22:08:20Z edw eyes glaze over.
2018-11-25T22:08:35Z wasamasa: the japanese like their scheme black
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2018-11-25T23:30:36Z xkapastel: amz3: you didn't run in to anything like this when running `make js` from chibi master?
2018-11-25T23:30:38Z xkapastel: sexp.c:2126:38: error: expected ')'
2018-11-25T23:30:38Z xkapastel:     snprintf(numbuf, NUMBUF_LEN, "%" SEXP_PRIdFIXNUM, (long)sexp_unbox_fixnum(obj));
2018-11-25T23:31:20Z edw: He said he went off to sleep.
2018-11-25T23:31:37Z xkapastel: maybe he'll see it tomorrow
2018-11-25T23:32:18Z edw: Does rudybot have the ability to send a delayed message the next time someone checks in?
2018-11-25T23:32:20Z Riastradh: Hm.
2018-11-25T23:32:39Z Riastradh: include/chibi/sexp.h should #include <inttypes.h> before the definition of SEXP_PRIdFIXNUM.
2018-11-25T23:32:48Z Riastradh: Not <stdint.h> (though <stdint.h> doesn't hurt).
2018-11-25T23:33:14Z Riastradh: Not really sure why the gcc/win64/apple conditional there; <inttypes.h> is standard C.
2018-11-25T23:34:38Z edw: ping
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2018-11-25T23:51:40Z Zipheir: pong
2018-11-25T23:52:14Z edw: Ah, a voice in the wilderness.
2018-11-25T23:56:21Z Zipheir: edw: Apparently your latency is horrid. xD
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2018-11-26T01:31:09Z Riastradh: xkapastel: FYI, in case you missed it: try changing #include <stdint.h> to #include <inttypes.h> in include/chibi/sexp.h.  (Also...the earlier <inttypes.h> should be <stdint.h>.  Heh.)
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2018-11-26T07:23:41Z ecraven: exciting times, voting has begun!
2018-11-26T07:24:00Z ecraven: (or rather — continued)
2018-11-26T07:24:42Z siraben: Voting for what?
2018-11-26T07:24:58Z siraben: I've lost the chat beforehand figuring out why Matrix wasn't connecting :/
2018-11-26T07:25:22Z ecraven: r7rs-large tangerine edition
2018-11-26T07:25:52Z siraben: I'm drooling
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2018-11-26T08:12:49Z xkapastel: Riastradh: thank you, that worked. i finally got the thing built
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2018-11-26T10:28:22Z rain1: will it be possible to implement a new module system idea as macros in multiple schemes? and then run the same code in them all
2018-11-26T10:30:17Z ecraven: can you give an example?
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2018-11-26T10:57:04Z rain1: yeah
2018-11-26T10:58:21Z rain1: https://bpaste.net/show/dd16acce4010
2018-11-26T10:58:30Z rain1: the first items are the module definition
2018-11-26T10:58:34Z rain1: and the rest is just scheme code
2018-11-26T11:01:36Z X-Scale: shouldn't it be (provide (xor)) ?
2018-11-26T11:02:44Z rain1: oh maybe, it's just an idea so far
2018-11-26T11:02:47Z rain1: it can change
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2018-11-26T11:55:53Z ecraven: so you want a different set of library / module functions? I don't think r7rs allows this in a portable way
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2018-11-26T13:12:24Z rain1: yeah i wanna make ym own thing
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2018-11-26T15:25:43Z ManDay: Why is that giving an error... (let ([x 2]) (define a 3))
2018-11-26T15:26:36Z LeoNerd: Standard Scheme doesn't define a use for [ and ]
2018-11-26T15:26:45Z LeoNerd: That tends to be an implementation extension
2018-11-26T15:26:48Z ManDay: Ok, but that's not the problem in this case
2018-11-26T15:27:06Z ManDay: It's complaining about a missing body for the let. Works if I add a dummy expression, but that's ugly
2018-11-26T15:27:23Z ManDay: i.e.  (let ((x 2)) (begin (define a 3) 4))
2018-11-26T15:28:47Z ManDay: Why can't it return whatever (define) returns - it's a silly limitation
2018-11-26T15:29:09Z rain1: define doesn't return anything
2018-11-26T15:29:10Z LeoNerd: `define` doesn't necessarily return anything
2018-11-26T15:29:16Z ManDay: yes, so?
2018-11-26T15:29:24Z ManDay: then have that let not return anything, either
2018-11-26T15:29:25Z rain1: oh i get you
2018-11-26T15:29:37Z rain1: yeah your idea makes more sense than what actually happens
2018-11-26T15:29:48Z confusedwanderer: is define inside let legal?
2018-11-26T15:29:54Z rain1: confusedwanderer: yeah but only at the start
2018-11-26T15:30:01Z confusedwanderer: i see
2018-11-26T15:30:05Z confusedwanderer: thanks :)
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2018-11-26T15:31:20Z ManDay: I'll make that vice a virtue and write  (let ((x 2)) (define y 3) (define z 4) 'end-let-defines)
2018-11-26T15:31:26Z ManDay: it's silly, but hey
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2018-11-26T15:33:30Z DKordic: ManDay: Would that definitions be local to "let" or non-local?
2018-11-26T15:34:35Z DKordic: s/that/such/
2018-11-26T15:35:10Z ManDay: DKordic: no, they are global
2018-11-26T15:35:35Z rain1: they are scoped inside the let
2018-11-26T15:35:52Z rain1: are you using an unusual scheme?
2018-11-26T15:36:08Z ManDay: well, no, i'm wrong
2018-11-26T15:36:11Z ManDay: they are local indeed
2018-11-26T15:36:21Z ManDay: so I need to do it with set!
2018-11-26T15:36:24Z rain1: i actually don't know how you would do this
2018-11-26T15:36:27Z rain1: oh yeah with set!
2018-11-26T15:36:38Z rain1: it seems a shame you can't put a let around multiple definitions
2018-11-26T15:36:50Z ManDay: but set! doesn't take the short syntax for lambdas, so it's really ... meh
2018-11-26T15:37:01Z ManDay: yeah, i think so too
2018-11-26T15:37:19Z rain1: I uess we could make a macro thath expands into the set! trick
2018-11-26T15:37:31Z ManDay: hm....
2018-11-26T15:37:34Z ManDay: good point
2018-11-26T15:37:53Z ManDay: i usually stay as far away from macros as possible, but i suppose it would help in this case
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2018-11-26T15:40:26Z confusedwanderer: macros are friends
2018-11-26T15:40:51Z rain1: :P
2018-11-26T15:42:44Z ManDay: "Who has macros as friends doesn't need enemies"
2018-11-26T15:43:37Z DKordic: FEXPRs then?
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2018-11-26T16:24:51Z confusedwanderer: hahaha
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2018-11-26T17:38:04Z amz3: ohohoh
2018-11-26T17:41:23Z edw: Yes?
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2018-11-26T17:48:22Z amz3: edw: btw I did not use your code, yet. I am tired of todo applications.
2018-11-26T17:49:30Z amz3: I keep ruminating about my git-like datastore, thinking about a possible use case, but failed to find one for the time being.
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2018-11-26T17:49:47Z edw: People still write those?! At least they're no longer writing pet store ecommerce sites.
2018-11-26T17:50:23Z amz3: it is a standard "bench" see http://todomvc.com/
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2018-11-26T18:17:00Z edw: amz3: I am aware. Didn't realize there was yet such an ongoing profusion of new frameworks that todo demo app writing continued.
2018-11-26T18:17:41Z edw: It's the Hello, world. of CRUDdy web apps, I suppose.
2018-11-26T18:19:17Z edw: (No claim to that thought being novel; billions have probably previously supposed the same thing.)
2018-11-26T18:23:02Z Zipheir: wth is an 'MV* framework' anyway?
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2018-11-26T18:59:40Z Zipheir: Ah, MV == 'model-view'
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2018-11-26T19:04:17Z Riastradh: multiple value, Mountain View, multivariate, Menezes-Vanstone, Merovingian
2018-11-26T19:05:13Z gwatt: most valueable
2018-11-26T19:05:19Z gwatt: minimum viable
2018-11-26T19:05:40Z Zipheir: What a slurry of 'clever' names the world of Web development is. "I'm using Drooble to make SQL requests via Passionfruit.js to serve Fungacious-based apps on Wungehub." You can autogenerate these sentences.
2018-11-26T19:06:00Z gwatt: I think someone has
2018-11-26T19:07:45Z edw: The proper framework for the development of most web sites is either Squarespace or Shopify. There should be an approximately 99% decrease in the number of development teams out there.
2018-11-26T19:08:48Z qu1j0t3: well, sort of, but having worked on a shopify site a little, it's such a limited platform that any moderate customisation is still going to require an experienced dev
2018-11-26T19:09:05Z qu1j0t3: this is also true of say Wordpress. and they're also kind of nightmarish to customise anyhow.
2018-11-26T19:09:18Z Riastradh: Do they do https yet?
2018-11-26T19:10:05Z edw: qu1j0t3: I don't know what a "dev" is, aside from a term that helps people who only know HTML, CSS, and "item.slideDown()" to get laid by claiming to be one on the subway.
2018-11-26T19:10:26Z Zipheir: Heh
2018-11-26T19:10:40Z edw: Because PHP, qu1j0t3.
2018-11-26T19:10:54Z qu1j0t3: yes, that hasn't done Wordpress any favours.
2018-11-26T19:11:45Z qu1j0t3: (and in shopify's case, JS)
2018-11-26T19:12:49Z edw: PHP is a great example for a convo from the other day: PHP is SSI (server-side includes) on a lethal dose of steroids. What was basically safe and innocuous became a vector for a million SQL injection attacks and the creation of the mob that would migrate from PHP to Rails to Node.js.
2018-11-26T19:13:36Z Zipheir: PHP used strlen() as a hash function. No more need be said.
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2018-11-26T19:14:51Z edw: Also didn't help that they sort of had King George III thrust upon them as BDFL.
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2018-11-26T19:15:42Z qu1j0t3: Zipheir: :)
2018-11-26T19:16:06Z edw: Zipheir: Perhaps a corollary to your comment. Or vice versa.
2018-11-26T19:20:32Z Zipheir: edw: Did PHP have a colony that it taxed heavily to pay for its overly-aggressive foreign policy and subsequently lost?
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2018-11-26T19:25:46Z jcowan: it wasn't the weight of the taxes, it's how they were imposed
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2018-11-26T19:26:09Z jcowan: The Declaratory Act 1766 was scary, especially since it closely tracked a similar Declaratory Act for Ireland
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2018-11-26T19:29:11Z edw: Zipheir: Sounds about right.
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2018-11-26T19:30:34Z Zipheir: jcowan: The 1766 Act was copied 'almost word for word' from the Irish Declaratory Act, per Wikipedia. TIL, thanks.
2018-11-26T19:30:41Z jcowan: yes
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2018-11-26T20:15:25Z edw: rain1: Your BRACKET-EXPAND returns too many values, if I interpret the problem correctly. It returns emptines as an option even in cases such as {blah,blorg}.
2018-11-26T20:15:39Z rain1: oh no
2018-11-26T20:15:53Z edw: At least if your comments are correct.
2018-11-26T20:16:43Z rain1: > (bracket-expand "{blah,blorg}")
2018-11-26T20:16:44Z edw: The sample should only return actual English words, but Ited, Ite, etc. are not, Scrabble dictionaries possibly notwithstanding.
2018-11-26T20:16:45Z rain1: '("blah" "blorg")
2018-11-26T20:16:59Z edw: What about the sample code?
2018-11-26T20:17:15Z rain1: it does return "Ited" "Ite", so that's wrong
2018-11-26T20:18:03Z edw: Wish I were wrong but glad I didn't erroneously call out an error...
2018-11-26T20:18:15Z rain1: > (bracket-expand "{{foo}blah,blorg}")
2018-11-26T20:18:17Z rain1: '("" "foo" "blah" "blorg")
2018-11-26T20:18:25Z rain1: this is the first place it goes wrong
2018-11-26T20:18:34Z rain1: thanks for telling me about this!
2018-11-26T20:18:40Z edw: This is a hairy problem!
2018-11-26T20:18:52Z rain1: that should give the same result as {fooblah,blorg}
2018-11-26T20:19:15Z rain1: > (parse-brackets "{{foo}blah,blorg}")
2018-11-26T20:19:17Z rain1: '("" ("" ("foo") "blah" "blorg") "")
2018-11-26T20:19:19Z rain1: the parse tree is correct
2018-11-26T20:19:24Z rain1: so the problem is in expansion
2018-11-26T20:22:54Z edw: Here's mine: <https://gist.github.com/edw/2742b829dea49b031a9291c7c03e8f7d>
2018-11-26T20:23:28Z rain1: how is that the entire thing? it's 1/3 the size of the code I wrote
2018-11-26T20:24:02Z rain1: that's awesome
2018-11-26T20:24:03Z edw: FOLD, FOLD-RIGHT, MAP, etc.
2018-11-26T20:24:13Z edw: I told ya!
2018-11-26T20:25:54Z edw: Per conversations yesterday, I wrote a few of the procedures and then realized I could rephrase them as instances of FOLD. A tool that could say, Yo, dude, you're re-writing half of a buggy FOLD there, I would much prefer that over a Barliman-style tool.
2018-11-26T20:26:23Z qu1j0t3: :)
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2018-11-26T20:28:40Z rain1: oh i get what i did wrong
2018-11-26T20:28:41Z edw: rain1: Also note MAPPEND, which I wrote once I realized I was re-implementing FOLD as I was trying to get rid of CONCATENATE invocations. Build a ladder and climb up it.
2018-11-26T20:28:41Z Zipheir: edw: That tool would just be a random Lisp hacker who you could pay in coffee/pizza.
2018-11-26T20:28:46Z rain1: there's no way to decide between choices and appends
2018-11-26T20:29:38Z edw imagines paying #scheme to be my peanut gallery and second-guess every line of code I write.
2018-11-26T20:31:01Z rain1: huh
2018-11-26T20:31:25Z rain1: so i gues sthe convention your code takes is that each layer of the AST denotes: append, choice, append, choice, ...
2018-11-26T20:32:47Z rain1: edw you should overwrite my solution with yours http://www.rosettacode.org/wiki/Brace_expansion#Scheme
2018-11-26T20:32:58Z edw: I had to think very hard about that. It wasn't until I started drawing boxes and lines on a piece of paper this morning that I figured out how to fix my code. (I'm sitting in the 30th St Station Pret A Manager after hacking away at this all during my train ride from NY.)
2018-11-26T20:33:11Z rain1: haha
2018-11-26T20:33:13Z rain1: i hope you had fun!
2018-11-26T20:34:09Z edw: It really made my brain itch. On a related note, I wrote a UNIX-macroexpansion-on-crack library for Clojure using Instaparse. I've been down this road before.
2018-11-26T20:34:38Z edw: You fix up yours and put it up there.
2018-11-26T20:35:41Z edw: Adtech macros: <https://github.com/thunknyc/adtech-macros>
2018-11-26T20:36:12Z edw: Later. I need a USB cable.
2018-11-26T20:36:35Z rain1: bye! thanks agani!
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2018-11-26T20:43:23Z qu1j0t3: Prêt-a-Manager
2018-11-26T20:43:30Z qu1j0t3 doesn't feel ready
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2018-11-26T20:51:54Z Riastradh: https://paste.asie.pl/Fa4a
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2018-11-26T20:58:19Z Riastradh: rain1: ^ That's what it looks like if you use a LALR parser like lemon(ade).  All the combination logic is contained in six lines.  Who's gonna write the Scheme macros to make that work in Scheme?
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2018-11-26T21:00:36Z Riastradh: Obviously, there's some overhead to that, so in a very simple case like this maybe it's not worthwhile, but it doesn't take much more complexity for a hand-written parser to get out of hand, so to speak.
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2018-11-26T21:09:25Z edw: rain1: A counterpoint to Riastradh: Even if you use a parser generator, you may very well end up with an AST that you'll need to interpret. Half of my code (and perhaps yours) is dealing with the parsed tree.
2018-11-26T21:09:41Z Riastradh: No parsed tree here at all.
2018-11-26T21:09:49Z Riastradh: Computation all happens in the parser actions.
2018-11-26T21:09:50Z Riastradh: Six lines.
2018-11-26T21:10:06Z edw: Ah, there's a paste up there.
2018-11-26T21:10:08Z Riastradh: (Five, if you discount the line break for a longish function name.)
2018-11-26T21:11:08Z Riastradh: LALR parser generator does not imply parse tree.  It just implies (a) a tidy structure for your logic and (b) you get feedback at development time, not run time, about ambiguity and complexity.
2018-11-26T21:11:09Z edw: Riastradh: Pardon, but that is a lot longer than six lines.
2018-11-26T21:11:30Z Riastradh: edw: Yes -- all the combination logic is contained within six lines.
2018-11-26T21:11:53Z Riastradh: Like I said, there's overhead, so in a simple case like this maybe it's not worthwhile.
2018-11-26T21:12:03Z Riastradh: But I don't think expanding braces was rain1's goal in life.
2018-11-26T21:12:41Z Riastradh: I forgot to add (c) guaranteed completion of parsing in linear time.
2018-11-26T21:13:19Z edw: Yes but the Dragon book tortures you with some hand-writing of things before it unleashes Lex and Yacc.
2018-11-26T21:13:42Z edw: Because depending on the calculator to do basic arithmetic is no way to live.
2018-11-26T21:14:38Z Riastradh: Quick, what's sinh(0.001)?  (No calculator!)
2018-11-26T21:14:40Z edw: If you example the record, I never suggested writing a parser for a non-toy language by hand.
2018-11-26T21:15:33Z edw: You're being an ass. A troubling number of people (nerds even) can't tell you what 7 x 8 is.
2018-11-26T21:15:47Z edw: s/example/examine/
2018-11-26T21:17:08Z edw: And someone should be able to tell you than sin(deg(5)) is "pretty small."
2018-11-26T21:17:13Z rain1: im writing v2....
2018-11-26T21:17:24Z rain1: i got an infiinte loop
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2018-11-26T21:26:18Z Riastradh: rain1: Shift-reduce parsers never go into infinite loops!
2018-11-26T21:27:01Z rain1: https://bpaste.net/show/10d17122d7ba
2018-11-26T21:27:04Z Riastradh: (I never read any of the dragon books; I self-imposed torture all by myself.)
2018-11-26T21:27:06Z rain1: im glad its over
2018-11-26T21:27:22Z rain1: how much freaking code those 3 lines turn into
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2018-11-26T21:45:56Z rain1: https://bpaste.net/show/55ade006d48d theres a version using my peg parser
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2018-11-26T22:24:28Z Riastradh: rain1: But your peg parser is missing the combination steps!
2018-11-26T22:26:06Z rain1: yeah the whole result creation part is pretty nasty
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2018-11-26T22:44:46Z jcowan: 4 votes on the Tangerine ballot, 3 on the Orange straw poll.  We'll see what happens.
2018-11-26T22:45:15Z Riastradh: Sounds like the Tangerine ballot wins!
2018-11-26T22:45:46Z jcowan: Only so far.  But yes, I epxect more votes on that since it's definitive.
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2018-11-26T23:53:58Z Riastradh: mejja: What'd I break this time?
2018-11-26T23:55:55Z mejja: I have a feature request: (random-bytevector! bv)
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2018-11-27T00:20:04Z pjb: Riastradh: 0.001. Everybody knows that sin(x)=x for small x.
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2018-11-27T00:26:25Z Riastradh: Not that it changes the answer much, but I said sinh, not sin.
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2018-11-27T00:28:00Z pjb: Oh, sorry.  It's late.
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2018-11-27T01:11:43Z edw: pjb: In Riastradh's world hyperbolic sine is basic arithmetic.
2018-11-27T01:12:04Z edw: jcowan: Who's entitled to vote?
2018-11-27T01:13:01Z edw: pjb: In my world sine is something a self-described programmer should be able to tell me a bit about.
2018-11-27T01:14:23Z jcowan: mejja: You can use the SRFI 158 vector-accumulator! and one of the generators from the forthcoming random generators SRFI.
2018-11-27T01:15:40Z jcowan: edw: Anyone with an interest in Scheme.  If you haven't voted in any Scheme election before (back to the last Steering Committee election but one), send an email explaining your interest in Scheme to the scheme-reports-wg2@googlegroups.com
2018-11-27T01:16:25Z pjb: There's not a lot of difference between sin and sinh: (e^x-e^-x)/2 vs. (e^ix-e^-ix)/2i
2018-11-27T01:18:47Z jcowan: Using symbol-macros is probably the Right Thing in that case
2018-11-27T01:18:50Z edw: I believe I sent an email or responded to a questionaire back during the early days of R7RS voting. Or perhaps R6RS--I was pretty steamed about the prospect of case sensitivity by default.
2018-11-27T01:19:04Z jcowan: No problem, then
2018-11-27T01:19:42Z edw: I mean, I have opinions about case folding, I was born to be a Schemer!
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2018-11-27T01:26:53Z Riastradh: edw: I said sinh!
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2018-11-27T01:27:24Z Riastradh: Oh, you did say hyperbolic sine, never mind.
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2018-11-27T02:28:19Z Riastradh: mejja: You have random-bytevector! now.
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2018-11-27T02:31:02Z mejja: I think you can skip start & end.
2018-11-27T02:32:21Z Riastradh: Too late.
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2018-11-27T16:18:37Z ManDay: Is there a "map" which works on pairs?
2018-11-27T16:19:11Z rain1: you mean like apply a 2-ary function to a list of pairs?
2018-11-27T16:19:31Z ManDay: no, a 1-ary function mapping one pair into another
2018-11-27T16:19:47Z ManDay: well, or rather an n-ary function mapping n pairs into a pair
2018-11-27T16:19:47Z rain1: i don't understand that, can you show example input and outpu?
2018-11-27T16:20:14Z ManDay: well, like map, but instead of lists it takes lists with two elements or rather, pairs
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2018-11-27T16:21:20Z ManDay: (pairs.map (lambda elements #f) pair1 pair2 ...) -> (#f . #f)
2018-11-27T16:21:47Z ManDay: or just
2018-11-27T16:22:02Z ManDay: (p1 . p2) -> ( (f p1) . (f p2) )
2018-11-27T16:22:23Z ManDay: (it won't break my neck if there is no such thing, just wondering)
2018-11-27T16:23:11Z rain1: oh i get it, but yeah it doesn't exist
2018-11-27T16:23:18Z ManDay: ok, thanks ^^
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2018-11-27T16:24:08Z ManDay: i may be doing something semantically silly...
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2018-11-27T16:25:39Z ManDay: Say I have a list of "sets" `my-set-list` and I have a pair of "elements" `my-el-pair`. Now I want to obtain (in a recursion) an associated pair of sets containing the respective elements...
2018-11-27T16:25:55Z ManDay: No matter how I flip it, the code is inelegant
2018-11-27T16:26:20Z rain1: can you show the code?
2018-11-27T16:26:47Z ManDay: sure, let me just fix you up the least-ugly version and extract it from its surroundings
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2018-11-27T16:42:48Z ManDay: Sorry, took a while
2018-11-27T16:43:09Z ManDay: what the heck, I only realized that memq etc. return #f instead of the empty list when the element is not found...
2018-11-27T16:43:21Z ManDay: how incredibly inconsistent
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2018-11-27T16:45:11Z ManDay: I'm actually not sure this could have been done *more* ugly... https://ideone.com/1nK4U2
2018-11-27T16:45:22Z ManDay: But as I said, that's my problem with that
2018-11-27T16:46:34Z ManDay: i suppose semantically, the "search list" is not a pair but an arbitrary amoung of sought elements and thus a list, so I should use that. but then I'd have to do some map over list indices, which would be even more horrible
2018-11-27T16:46:44Z ManDay: (compared to a map over (list car cdr))
2018-11-27T16:47:35Z lllll: is memory allocated with chez foreign-alloc  gc'ed?
2018-11-27T16:48:09Z edw: ManDay: So this, basically? (map (lambda (pair) (let ((first (car pair)) (rest ((cdr pair)))) E1 E2 ...)) LIST-OF-PAIRS)
2018-11-27T16:49:28Z ManDay: edw: nah, that's not the semantics of (map), nvm that question though. it only comes from that ugly code problem in the first place
2018-11-27T16:49:38Z rain1: ManDay: wait does memq break convention with assoc?
2018-11-27T16:51:04Z ManDay: rain1: no
2018-11-27T16:51:43Z ManDay: i guess it's just convenience, so one can check  (if (assoc/memq ...) ...)  but it's still annoyingly inconsistent
2018-11-27T16:52:22Z ManDay: oh well, I'm a fool for my question
2018-11-27T16:52:36Z ManDay: that's indeed best done with a list, and then (map ... targets targets')
2018-11-27T16:52:41Z ManDay facepalms
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2018-11-27T16:53:27Z qu1j0t3: :)
2018-11-27T16:53:36Z qu1j0t3 loves happy endings
2018-11-27T16:54:05Z ManDay: qu1j0t3: it's just a chapter, i will have more silly questions in notime ^^
2018-11-27T16:54:27Z qu1j0t3: :)
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2018-11-27T16:54:58Z edw: ManDay: There may be an idiom that expresses what you're looking for involving COND or CASE or DO.
2018-11-27T16:56:18Z ManDay: edw: I don't understand what you mean.
2018-11-27T16:56:40Z ManDay: (or rather, what would that idiom be)
2018-11-27T16:58:08Z rain1: I think that you could make the code easier to read by defining well named auxilliary functions that do basic things
2018-11-27T16:58:20Z rain1: even just synonyms of existing functions
2018-11-27T17:01:18Z ManDay: I need to maintain some kind of job security
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2018-11-27T17:05:08Z edw: ManDay: I didn't know what particular part of your paste you were referencing.
2018-11-27T17:05:34Z ManDay: oh nvm edw, it's all good with a list and map now
2018-11-27T17:05:44Z edw: Ah.
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2018-11-27T17:17:51Z ManDay: i wish (or) and (and) could be applied :-(
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2018-11-27T17:21:08Z xkapastel: why are they special forms?
2018-11-27T17:21:22Z gwatt: xkapastel: for short circuiting
2018-11-27T17:21:27Z edw: xkapastel: Because short citcuiting.
2018-11-27T17:21:36Z gwatt: if they were normal functions all arguments would be evaluated first
2018-11-27T17:21:42Z LeoNerd: It would be nice to have non-shortcircuiting versions that can be `apply`ed
2018-11-27T17:21:46Z xkapastel: oh, okay. i just implemented them in a fexpr lisp and didn't need to do anything like that
2018-11-27T17:22:38Z gwatt: There is for-all and exists
2018-11-27T17:23:26Z ManDay: LeoNerd: Or a short circuiting version which works like applied
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2018-11-27T19:30:32Z amz3: BOB2019 seems nice https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/comp.lang.scheme/K5if63CoVlU
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2018-11-27T19:44:44Z edw: To the best of anyone's knowledge is there a SRFI (or Chibi module) that exists at the same conceptual level as curl(1)?
2018-11-27T19:47:43Z edw: Also: anyone know the current status us chibi-snow as well as Snow2? I'm tempted to build a load-libraries-from-a-library-to-URL-mapping tool.
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2018-11-27T20:08:28Z amz3: I saw a http-client librari in chibi, idk how good or bad it is
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2018-11-27T20:50:59Z amerigo: can you define your own macros of the type #() '() `()?
2018-11-27T20:54:05Z amz3: reader macros?
2018-11-27T20:54:37Z amz3: there is a type of macro for #foobar in some schemes
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2018-11-27T20:57:50Z rain1: > (let ((quote -)) '4)
2018-11-27T20:57:52Z rain1: $1 = -4
2018-11-27T20:57:59Z rain1: maybe you can just make quote a macro that does something else :P
2018-11-27T20:58:05Z rain1: i think this is probably a bad idea though
2018-11-27T21:00:27Z amerigo: if #(1 2 3) is (vector 1 2 3), somehing of the like ^(1 2 3) to be (custom-data 1 2 3)
2018-11-27T21:07:10Z amz3: amerigo: clojure does this sort of this I think, but schemes I know use a # prefix to implement custom literals
2018-11-27T21:10:17Z amz3: amerigo: that said, guile has guile-reader https://www.nongnu.org/guile-reader/ there is also an srfi for that I think, I don't recall the name tho
2018-11-27T21:11:46Z wasamasa: why does it have an optional dependency on lightning ._.
2018-11-27T21:12:08Z amz3: for instance, guile reader implement [spam ,(foobar) egg] that is transformed into (quote ("spam " ("foobar") " egg")) mind spacing.
2018-11-27T21:12:55Z amz3: that is called the skribe syntax
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2018-11-27T21:18:11Z jcowan: Changeable lexical syntax has never been part of any Scheme standard, partly because it imposes phasing problems: a run-time operation can't reliably change the way things are read.
2018-11-27T21:18:54Z wasamasa: yeah, CHICKEN requires you to use compiler flags to do this properly
2018-11-27T21:19:39Z jcowan: SRFI 10, which is the nearest thing with some degree of portability, has similar problems.
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2018-11-27T21:32:40Z Zipheir: At least in R5RS it's an error to mutate literals, so your ^(1 2 3) wouldn't be exactly the same as (custom-data 1 2 3) anyway.
2018-11-27T21:34:40Z jcowan: In all other standards as well, and some impls enforce this.
2018-11-27T21:37:33Z qu1j0t3 looks jcowan straight in the eye and mutates a literal
2018-11-27T21:38:13Z Zipheir: Better than literally mutating.
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2018-11-28T01:47:46Z edw: amz3: thanks for the tip.
2018-11-28T01:48:44Z edw: amz3: Since writig I assumed I'd be using SYSTEM to invoke curl(1). Or employing FFI to talk to libcurl.
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2018-11-28T08:46:39Z ManDay: I still have that lingering feeling that my implemention of pair-map is unnecessarily complicated...
2018-11-28T08:46:43Z ManDay: (define (pair-map f p . r)  (let ([result (apply map f (list (car p) (cdr p))                 (map (lambda (e) (list (car e) (cdr e))) r))])   (cons (car result) (cadr result))))
2018-11-28T08:53:11Z ManDay: Ok this is probably shorter: (define (pair-map f p . r)  (cons (apply f (car p) (map car r)) (apply f (cdr p) (map cdr r))))
2018-11-28T08:53:37Z ManDay: (shorter it is, probably better)
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2018-11-28T11:11:03Z ManDay: Ah, good ol' ISP
2018-11-28T11:11:16Z ManDay: So that was like ... 3 hours? Anyone respond?
2018-11-28T11:12:27Z z0d: no
2018-11-28T11:12:33Z ManDay: ty
2018-11-28T11:12:33Z z0d: I guess it's still too early
2018-11-28T11:12:48Z ManDay: yup, this is an east-coast channel apparently
2018-11-28T11:13:06Z ManDay: no realm for us europeans
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2018-11-28T12:08:53Z ManDay: I'm not happy with this
2018-11-28T12:08:55Z edw: To answer my own question re: Chibi: (chibi net http) contains an HTTP client.
2018-11-28T12:09:19Z edw: ManDay: What are you using that proc for? I have never had the need for `pair-fold.'
2018-11-28T12:10:07Z edw: Er, fold on the brain. `Pair-map.'
2018-11-28T12:11:28Z ManDay: edw: a pair represents a range or an edge in a graph. e.g. the edge: given an iterator over all edges in a graph, i build an iterator which only iterates over spanning trees. therefore, i need to maintain a list of nodes for each connected tree and check whether an edge will connect to trees or create a loop in one
2018-11-28T12:11:40Z ManDay: here is the code (just so you have an idea where the pair-fold comes in):
2018-11-28T12:14:27Z ManDay: https://ideone.com/datokZ - the pair-map in there *could* semantically be a normal map and the pair would be a list, as far as the "search" operation (search the corresponding sets in a list of sets which contain the elements) is concerned
2018-11-28T12:15:05Z ManDay: but then I end up using (cadr) instead of (cdr) everywhere, and I don't like that either, since the objects are naturally pairs (an edge has two end points)
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2018-11-28T12:17:37Z ManDay: (the example is really stupid, since the "graph" in this case is just a chain of nodes, so don't try to make any sense of the surrounding code)
2018-11-28T12:24:41Z edw settles in at secure, undisclosed café
2018-11-28T12:24:54Z edw: Thanks, ManDay. Look at it now.
2018-11-28T12:26:10Z edw: Dumb question, perhaps: Why not use a vector, and VECTOR-MAP?
2018-11-28T12:26:53Z edw: A pair is "just" a special vector.
2018-11-28T12:26:55Z ManDay: edw: I suppose...
2018-11-28T12:27:16Z ManDay: I just like to use the conceptually simplest structure that is fitting
2018-11-28T12:27:31Z ManDay: and that seems to be a pair for a semantic tuple of necessarily TWO values
2018-11-28T12:27:50Z ManDay: i mean a vector doesn't have any advantage over a list in that sense
2018-11-28T12:28:47Z edw: Oh, hold on.
2018-11-28T12:31:49Z edw: (define (pair-map f ps) (cons (apply f (map car ps))(apply f (map cdr ps))))
2018-11-28T12:31:49Z edw:  
2018-11-28T12:32:01Z edw: That's simpler.
2018-11-28T12:32:23Z edw: Missing a dot and a space before `ps'.
2018-11-28T12:32:43Z ManDay: meh
2018-11-28T12:33:05Z edw: What's your problem with your code then?
2018-11-28T12:33:40Z ManDay: if it's the best thing to do, nothing ;p
2018-11-28T12:34:26Z edw: You are expressing dissatisfaction with it, so I'm trying to help. Using vectors would allow you to get rid of the repeated (apply f ...).
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2018-11-28T12:36:20Z edw: And not not understanding your code at a glance (procss too long, too many comments) I would suggest defining macros to create new names for car/cdr/cons so that you and other readers of the code can distinguish between operations on lists and operations on graph elements.
2018-11-28T12:36:29Z edw: s/not not/not/
2018-11-28T12:36:53Z edw: s/procss/procs/
2018-11-28T12:37:10Z edw: Just switched keyboards from ten minutes ago.
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2018-11-28T12:37:38Z edw: Macros or (define make-tuple cons)...
2018-11-28T12:37:42Z edw: Or whatever.
2018-11-28T12:41:28Z edw: Scheme style would be to use TUPLE, not MAKE-TUPLE.
2018-11-28T12:47:01Z ManDay: edw: yeah i might do that in the long run
2018-11-28T12:47:21Z ManDay: for now I didn't want to have to maintain too many defines, just the really functional stuff
2018-11-28T12:48:04Z ManDay: (eventually when stuff goes into a lib i might want to decide to take out things into global scope, just to make things more readable), right now i want things concise and compressed
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2018-11-28T12:50:54Z edw: There's a difference between something being concise and something being subjected to lossy compression. Not distinguishing between "head of a list" and "slot X of data structure Y" is the latter.
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2018-11-28T13:01:00Z ManDay: edw: come again?
2018-11-28T13:03:26Z edw: I assert that if you use CONS/CAR/CDR on more than one type of data in a given procedure, you should either break the procedure up (inclusive!) OR create an alias for the procedures that makes the data structure and your intent clear.
2018-11-28T13:04:25Z ManDay: yes and I said I hear you, and i will do that in the long run once someone is supposed to follow along my code
2018-11-28T13:04:40Z ManDay: right now, i want maximum entropy in the code
2018-11-28T13:04:40Z edw: And not doing that is not "being concise" but is being sloppy and denying future readers of the code (yourself included) of important information.
2018-11-28T13:05:05Z ManDay: the information (definitions) are there in the comments, fwiw
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2018-11-28T13:05:36Z ManDay: what you are advocating is descriptive names of procedures. that's what I don't have.
2018-11-28T13:06:19Z edw: I meant "one" not "YOU, ManDay!" when I wrote above.
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2018-11-28T14:17:35Z edw: Should not (eq? '(a . (b c)) '(a b c)) => #t
2018-11-28T14:17:54Z edw: ?
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2018-11-28T14:20:39Z edw: Actually, it looks like it should not.
2018-11-28T14:21:47Z ogamita: Which is why you should avoid eq? which is too low-level an operator.
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2018-11-28T14:22:28Z ogamita: (equal? '(a . (b c)) '(a b c)) => #t
2018-11-28T14:24:26Z edw: I'm w/ you; was under the mistaken assumption (chibi test) used eq?, which would be insane.
2018-11-28T14:29:14Z edw: My question was based on errors upon incorrect assumptions upon errors.
2018-11-28T14:31:24Z marvin2: +
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2018-11-28T15:16:03Z ManDay: The bad thing is not the loosing connection, but re-doing these humiliating captchas every time
2018-11-28T15:18:08Z qu1j0t3: :D
2018-11-28T15:18:18Z qu1j0t3: can't be too careful!
2018-11-28T15:19:22Z ManDay: these are not normal captchas, they're real fucking-with-you captchas. i think I've clicked on at least 60 cars, 20 traffic lights and more than 30 street crossings in the last week
2018-11-28T15:19:42Z qu1j0t3: you're keeping those self driving cars on the road.
2018-11-28T15:19:56Z qu1j0t3: don't stop. there would be mayhem.
2018-11-28T15:19:57Z ManDay: and it randomly decides to give you one of those "wait a few seconds until we gradually fade in the next picture" captchas every now and then, just to piss you off even more
2018-11-28T15:20:04Z ManDay: qu1j0t3: haha
2018-11-28T15:20:09Z ManDay: that's how it works then!
2018-11-28T15:20:12Z qu1j0t3: :D
2018-11-28T15:24:53Z edw: ManDay: If you can spare a few dollars/euros from your beer/ramen budget, I recommend getting a cheap AWS/Google Cloud instance and running tmux + emacs in it.
2018-11-28T15:27:21Z ManDay: emacs? why the hell would I do that? :-D
2018-11-28T15:28:12Z edw: ERC?
2018-11-28T15:28:14Z qu1j0t3: or anything. weechat works
2018-11-28T15:28:20Z ManDay: more my thing
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2018-11-28T15:58:02Z edw: Why would you want to do tmux + emacs + erc? It almost never disconnects.
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2018-11-28T16:11:09Z ogamita: And then we could start to click on different objects, and teach the AI something completely wrong!
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2018-11-28T16:56:11Z edw: Chibi's docs somehow know how to place scribble docstring arguments in a proc signature where there's a rest argument for optionals. I'm following the same conventions but chibi-doc doesn't replace e.g. "(parse source . o)" with "(parse source [index])" in the generated HTML. Anyone have any insight into what's going on and/or what I need to do to have correct docs generated?
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2018-11-28T18:55:19Z edw: Re: chibi-doc and scribble: Chibi looks at the code for optional binding code patterns, and my code didn't contain a matching pattern.
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2018-11-28T19:11:04Z ober: Scheme/Lisp stories on HN always seem to draw the worst cliched comments.
2018-11-28T19:13:33Z edw: You can remove "Scheme/Lisp " in your message and it is still true. HN is a garbage can.
2018-11-28T19:14:48Z ober: "but arc! turtles all the way down man!"
2018-11-28T19:19:27Z edw: The sociopathic pedantry is sanctimonious in a way that it isn't here.
2018-11-28T19:19:37Z edw: (Mostly.)
2018-11-28T19:20:20Z edw: ober: Oh yes! Arc -> Racket (er, mzscheme) -> Chez.
2018-11-28T19:21:09Z edw: Arc still has, what, eighty-eight years of Hundred-Year Rule left before the next language takes over?
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2018-11-28T19:23:07Z rain1: im no fan of arc
2018-11-28T19:23:19Z rain1: but i do think it's cool that people will experiment and develop their own version and stuff
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2018-11-28T19:34:33Z edw: Genuine question: What has anyone come up with that doesn't entail writing a few macros? Lisps (as we all know here) are malleable language.
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2018-11-28T19:46:59Z Riastradh: mejja: What'd I break this time?
2018-11-28T19:52:05Z mejja: Maybe indicate in the commit msg when staging is required to get a working system?
2018-11-28T19:52:19Z Riastradh: What broke?
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2018-11-28T19:53:20Z mejja: Nothing.
2018-11-28T19:53:39Z Riastradh: System should compile just fine, but yes, the tests won't pass until the runtime is recompiled with a fresh compiler.
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2018-11-28T20:16:33Z mejja: sqrt is broken.
2018-11-28T20:17:45Z qu1j0t3: meh, nobody uses that anyway
2018-11-28T20:19:55Z mejja: (expt z 1/2) is also broken btw..
2018-11-28T20:30:02Z Zipheir: edw: Maybe that was a rhetorical question, but I can think of a few counterexamples. Pie, the dependently-typed Lisp-y language from The Little Typer is more than a few macros, sadly.
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2018-11-28T20:33:12Z mejja: rudybot, Movie tip of the day: For a few macros more -- starring C Lint Eastwood
2018-11-28T20:33:38Z rudybot: mejja: Have Robert Redford and Clint Eastwood ever collaborated on anything?
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2018-11-28T20:38:54Z Zipheir: Also starring Lee Van Clisp as the evil bounty hunter.
2018-11-28T20:38:57Z Riastradh: mejja: Elaborate?
2018-11-28T20:39:04Z Riastradh: Where is it broken?
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2018-11-28T21:05:49Z edw: Zipheir: Per the prefatory comment, it was a genuine comment. Was Pie a descendent of Arc? (That was my question about Arc: has anyone done anything that amounts to more than changing from powdered to brown sugar?)
2018-11-28T21:08:44Z Zipheir: edw: Oh, got it. Arc does seem like sort of a dead-end at the moment.
2018-11-28T21:08:50Z Riastradh: Well abs is broken.
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2018-11-28T21:13:32Z edw: Zipheir: Aside from my "Lisp is good" enthusiasm, I never really got the excitement. Conciseness is great, but there was nothing new; in fact it was a regression in that PG embraced anaphoric forms and non-hygienic macros. Also, Clojure IMO stole all its thunder -- for good reason.
2018-11-28T21:15:43Z gwatt: PG came from common lisp, so it's not surprising he prefers unhygienic macros. Also, I'm fairly certain Pie has nothing to do with Arc
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2018-11-28T21:18:49Z edw: gwatt: He wrote a CL book, didn't he? Learning Common Lisp? I'm having flashbacks to fifteen years ago when a colleague said, "There are very good reasons for preferring a LISP-2." I asked what they were and he said, "Richard Gabriel wrote a paper in support of it," and open reading, I found that RG wrote, paraphrasing, that LISP-1s are probably better but "backwards compatibility!"
2018-11-28T21:19:07Z edw: s/open/upon/
2018-11-28T21:19:24Z gwatt: edw: PG = Paul Graham
2018-11-28T21:19:32Z gwatt: (who made Arc)
2018-11-28T21:20:08Z Zipheir: Yeah, Paul Graham is a CL snob.
2018-11-28T21:20:33Z edw: gwatt: If you read my comments above you will see I know exactly who PG and RG are.
2018-11-28T21:21:40Z edw: More correcting people who aren't wrong on #scheme. Nerdsplaining.
2018-11-28T21:21:44Z gwatt: edw: I assumed you misread PG as RG, and thought I was talking about Richard Gabriel
2018-11-28T21:21:56Z qu1j0t3: edw: & PG wrote a book called "On Lisp" which has a lot to say about CL macros, as far as I remember.
2018-11-28T21:22:10Z Zipheir: Although I don't think Clojure stole anyone's thunder for good reason. It's just that Clojure has really good marketing.
2018-11-28T21:22:26Z edw: He also write ANSI Common Lisp, which was the title I was groping for above.
2018-11-28T21:22:32Z edw: s/write/wrote/
2018-11-28T21:22:34Z wasamasa: groping?
2018-11-28T21:23:05Z ober: groking
2018-11-28T21:23:09Z edw: I thought the title was _Learning Common Lisp_.
2018-11-28T21:23:21Z ober: On Lisp
2018-11-28T21:23:46Z Zipheir: Amazingly, Paul Graham has written more than one book.
2018-11-28T21:23:54Z edw: Could it be possible he wrote two books, ober? And that you're correcting me incorrectly?
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2018-11-28T21:24:52Z edw: For the pedants: >= 2 books.
2018-11-28T21:24:55Z ober: he wrote several yes.
2018-11-28T21:25:10Z edw: Game set and match.
2018-11-28T21:25:11Z ober: all about how Clisp saved his company
2018-11-28T21:25:15Z ober: endless love
2018-11-28T21:25:42Z edw: That was (also) a big them of Hackers and Painters.
2018-11-28T21:25:49Z edw: s/them/theme/
2018-11-28T21:25:52Z Zipheir: 5 IRC points to edw for winning the 'number of books by Paul Graham' dispute.
2018-11-28T21:26:12Z wasamasa: dabblers and blowhards
2018-11-28T21:26:30Z ober: ANSI Common Lisp perhaps?
2018-11-28T21:27:00Z ober: not seeing a 'learning cl'
2018-11-28T21:27:05Z Riastradh: He's also written arbitrarily many insufferable essays from his privileged technocrat armchair where he's so shielded from all consequences of his actions that there are no limits to what he feels entitled to bloviate about.
2018-11-28T21:27:11Z qu1j0t3: ober: the whole story is in scrollback.
2018-11-28T21:27:12Z qu1j0t3: 16:22:26              edw | He also write ANSI Common Lisp, which was the title I was groping for above.
2018-11-28T21:27:13Z edw: wasamasa: I recall the essay from a "real" painter, possibly art historian, that argued, "painters didn't paint that way."
2018-11-28T21:27:29Z qu1j0t3: Riastradh++
2018-11-28T21:27:35Z wasamasa: edw: http://idlewords.com/2005/04/dabblers_and_blowhards.htm
2018-11-28T21:27:43Z qu1j0t3: Riastradh: my god his tweets are oblivious
2018-11-28T21:28:46Z ober: qu1j0t3: irc is hard, and I'm lazy. thanks will do
2018-11-28T21:28:50Z edw: qu1j0t3: That's why you get for engaging with crazy. Be careful what you let into your brain.
2018-11-28T21:29:30Z edw: ober: Much better to just infuriate people by correcting for things they didn't say.
2018-11-28T21:30:51Z ober: oh was not correcting. just assuming
2018-11-28T21:31:37Z edw: I need to transition from coffee to beer. Sorry for the hair-trigger rage, ober et al.
2018-11-28T21:31:57Z ober: edw: it's fine
2018-11-28T21:32:29Z qu1j0t3: edw: o/    i need more coffee myself.
2018-11-28T21:32:33Z qu1j0t3: motivation is hard this afternoon.
2018-11-28T21:32:45Z qu1j0t3: beer would end my aspirations to work at all.
2018-11-28T21:33:00Z Zipheir: wasamasa: That's a very amusing post. Almost as amusing as Graham's "painters are like hackers because they both make things" pseudo-deep bogus.
2018-11-28T21:33:03Z ober: Riastradh: do you feel he's done harm to the lisp eco system?
2018-11-28T21:33:23Z ober: he use to eat at the restaurant across the street in palo alto. never had a book for him to sign on me.
2018-11-28T21:33:31Z wasamasa: Zipheir: I generally like this guy's writings because they give me an idea about wildly different topics that I haven't given much thought about
2018-11-28T21:33:37Z qu1j0t3: he probably would have called security on you anyway ober
2018-11-28T21:33:47Z wasamasa: Zipheir: like, how it is to actually live in argentina
2018-11-28T21:34:00Z edw: I published two packages on snow-fort so I consider myself to have rolled the boulder sufficiently up the hill.
2018-11-28T21:34:21Z qu1j0t3: edw: I'm not there yet. I have a daily quota. It is hard to meet it thanks to burnout.
2018-11-28T21:35:42Z edw: qu1j0t3: I used to be hard on myself when I was burned out. At some point you need to trust that you're going to get your mojo back and relax. If you're going to accomplish nothing, don't also dig your hole of despair deeper.
2018-11-28T21:35:50Z Zipheir: ober: Maybe it's being hard on Paul Graham, but he's almost the ESR of Lisp at this point.
2018-11-28T21:36:05Z edw: The will to make things comes back. You just need to trust yourself.
2018-11-28T21:36:14Z qu1j0t3: edw: yeah, but i do have to meet a quota  :)
2018-11-28T21:36:17Z ober: He just looks like a big Dave Coulier
2018-11-28T21:36:42Z Riastradh: ober: I dunno, I don't pay much attention to him.
2018-11-28T21:36:49Z edw: PG hasn't ruined the hackers' dictionary.
2018-11-28T21:37:21Z Zipheir: He's also not a raving political nut. As I said, the comparison is a little too harsh.
2018-11-28T21:37:31Z qu1j0t3: Zipheir: actually... he kind of is.
2018-11-28T21:37:37Z qu1j0t3: Zipheir: how many of his tweets have you read?
2018-11-28T21:37:43Z ober feels he forgot to also promote the downside of lisp and be pragmatic about how "magical" clisp was of all implementations.
2018-11-28T21:38:00Z edw: qu1j0t3, Zipheir: He's basically a crypto Ayn Randian.
2018-11-28T21:38:06Z qu1j0t3: indeed.
2018-11-28T21:38:07Z edw: s/basically//
2018-11-28T21:38:18Z qu1j0t3: simply doing what he does is extremely political.
2018-11-28T21:38:24Z Zipheir: qu1j0t3: AFAIK he's a sort of anarcho-capitalist?
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2018-11-28T21:38:38Z qu1j0t3: how is that not political and not nutty? :)
2018-11-28T21:39:07Z edw: I think Riastradh's analysis is pretty spot on.
2018-11-28T21:39:11Z qu1j0t3: and as for raving, he's so out of touch he might as well be huffing paint when he opines on anything, as Riastradh pointed out.
2018-11-28T21:39:25Z Zipheir: qu1j0t3: I meant to say not as off-the-wall disgusting as ESR, but I don't want to get into subjects that will cause Riastradh to explode.
2018-11-28T21:39:39Z qu1j0t3: Zipheir: that's a different statement ... they're horrible in their own ways, to be sure.
2018-11-28T21:39:39Z ober: a more technical Russ Hanneman
2018-11-28T21:39:41Z Riastradh: ober: I try to pay attention to (a) political issues that don't promote violent ethnonationalism or infinite wealth concentration, and (b) people who actually do technical work.
2018-11-28T21:39:55Z qu1j0t3: Riastradh: high five for (a)
2018-11-28T21:40:20Z ober: nice
2018-11-28T21:43:33Z jcowan does not agree that the Hacker's Dictionary was "ruined", despite being politically opposed to ESR and no longer his friend (since 9/11+)
2018-11-28T21:45:02Z ober: he was like the sort of folks who rush to see the UFO land. and was just a first poster on linux
2018-11-28T21:46:39Z edw: The objectively funniest part of dabblers and blowhards is this:
2018-11-28T21:47:48Z wasamasa waits anxiously
2018-11-28T21:48:02Z edw: "Even the most elegant of computer programs, in order to be considered a program, has to compile and run [1]."
2018-11-28T21:48:17Z edw: And, then, the footnote:
2018-11-28T21:48:34Z edw: "[1] Some Arc hackers may disagree with this."
2018-11-28T21:48:40Z wasamasa: :D
2018-11-28T21:51:11Z Zipheir: The painting/programming analogy isn't total bogus (Sussman constantly makes photography/CS analogies), Graham just seems to be so high on his own brilliance that he can't be troubled to think the idea through.
2018-11-28T21:52:16Z edw: Metaphors with limits (i.e. ALL METAPHORS) are useful and fine as long as they're invoked judiciously.
2018-11-28T21:53:45Z Zipheir: "Metaphors are useful when they help you to formulate questions, but dangerous when used to provide answers" --somebody
2018-11-28T21:55:06Z edw: rain1: I pushed my brace expansion code to snow-fort.org so now the rosettacode.org solution can be a two-liner.
2018-11-28T21:55:18Z rain1: lol
2018-11-28T21:57:41Z Riastradh: edw: I bet you pushed your hyperbolic calculator up to snow-fort.org too just so you could cheat on the math test with a two-liner!
2018-11-28T21:59:34Z edw: Riastradh: I have done nearly as bad. In junior high I took two math courses simultaneously and to show my contempt for the prereq course I once constructed a sliderule in class and asked if i could use it on the test.
2018-11-28T21:59:51Z qu1j0t3: :)
2018-11-28T22:00:09Z edw: Using graph paper and a log table.
2018-11-28T22:00:46Z edw: I wish I could go back and apologize to Mrs P. I was(?) an ass.
2018-11-28T22:00:51Z ober: edw: Snowfort? that still in use?
2018-11-28T22:01:00Z jcowan: "Even the best of friends cannot attend each other's funerals."  --Kehlog Albran
2018-11-28T22:01:10Z edw: Yeah, plenty of stuff has gotten pushed recently.
2018-11-28T22:02:36Z edw: ober: I was thinking of hooking something into chibi to allow modules to be associated with URLs and for a brief moment I emerged from my NIH madness and figured out when snow-chibi was segfaulting on my machine.
2018-11-28T22:04:35Z ober: oh the r7rs stuff
2018-11-28T22:05:56Z edw: For me it's R7RS or the highway. I am so enthusiastic about the prospects for revitalizing Scheme and enabling an era when practical real-world applications can be built in Scheme.
2018-11-28T22:10:21Z Zipheir: edw++
2018-11-28T22:12:04Z edw: And with that...
2018-11-28T22:19:35Z jcowan: edw has voted; the rest of you, go and do likewise!
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2018-11-28T22:43:49Z rain1: is there a nice "printf"/format type library thaht uses s-expressions for the format "string", ideally implemented in plain syntax-rules or something?
2018-11-28T22:47:19Z Heretic: rain1: Wouldn't that be Scheme?
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2018-11-28T22:54:10Z gwatt: jcowan: where is the vote happening?
2018-11-28T22:55:36Z jcowan: Tangerine ballot: https://docs.google.com/forms/d/1XQNvIzijmCxHgnaRq31u9MogloG0YWDaWKBs-J9CCTA
2018-11-28T22:55:36Z jcowan: Orange straw poll: https://docs.google.com/forms/d/1qn1Ut7tR5bzXyWOrxpbLu5O7rJJ5_m2HhAeG8YqfgGI
2018-11-28T22:55:39Z jcowan: gwatt: ^^
2018-11-28T23:01:08Z ober: so (set! (car lst) 3) is not scheme?
2018-11-28T23:06:15Z gwatt: ober: it's not widely (if at all) supported, but it could be
2018-11-28T23:08:01Z ober: gotcha. the idea that the addition of features above and beyond the spec invalidates it as a scheme seemed odd.
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2018-11-28T23:12:47Z gwatt: extra or absent features don't make it not scheme.
2018-11-28T23:13:29Z ober: aye
2018-11-28T23:23:37Z jcowan: ober: It's on the list to be added to R7RS-large, if the punters so decide.  Because it's not backward compatible without some pain, it's going to be (if at all) in the Green Edition.
2018-11-28T23:23:59Z jcowan: s/backward compatible/portable
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2018-11-29T00:02:50Z Riastradh: mejja: Gonna tell me what's wrong with sqrt?
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2018-11-29T01:44:02Z mejja: Riastradh, (sqrt -inf.0+1.0i) & (sqrt -inf.0-1.0i)
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2018-11-29T01:48:07Z Riastradh: I guess those should both be +inf.0i?
2018-11-29T01:49:35Z Riastradh: Grah.  What was I thinking.  This hex floating-point formatter is completely broken.
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2018-11-29T01:53:52Z Riastradh: I was going to go Kahan's branch cuts paper and make sure we got everything right with reasonably small error, and add the hyperbolic functions too, but it's a bit of work.
2018-11-29T01:56:25Z mejja: Riastradh,  http://paste.call-cc.org/paste?id=326f8e28c28db349dc503da3da1fce441c8515e6
2018-11-29T01:57:01Z Riastradh: OK, makes sense.
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2018-11-29T08:23:41Z ManDay: I suppose there is no easy, nice way to solve the (let ((local1 #f) (local2 #t)) (define x (cons local1 local2))) problem nicely?
2018-11-29T08:24:03Z ManDay: I'm no macro person, but I think writing a macro which would solve it will be complicated
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2018-11-29T08:36:59Z ogamita: ManDay: what is this problem?
2018-11-29T08:37:29Z ManDay: ogamita: That doesn't compile. The idea is to define stuff using a local helper variable
2018-11-29T08:37:41Z ogamita: If it's the toplevelness of define, then you can write it  (define x (let ((local1 #f) (local2 #t))  (cons local1 local2)))
2018-11-29T08:38:10Z ManDay: ogamita: I should have said, the point is that I have multiple defines using the same helper variable
2018-11-29T08:38:19Z ogamita: Oh.
2018-11-29T08:39:02Z ogamita: Why do you want to define global variables?
2018-11-29T08:39:40Z ManDay: You mean opposed to writing a module?
2018-11-29T08:41:01Z ogamita: yes, using local variables, or (since actually my question was on the plural), why not define a single variable containing all the values (eg a vector or a structure)?
2018-11-29T08:45:12Z ManDay: in principle, it's still polluting a namespace somewhere
2018-11-29T08:45:22Z ManDay: but yeah, better i pollute the internal module namespace
2018-11-29T08:45:24Z Zipheir: ManDay: I don't know the context, but maybe you could return a procedure.
2018-11-29T08:45:39Z ManDay: I don't understand.
2018-11-29T08:46:43Z ManDay: The context is as simple as that I have a public integer X and I need to use 1+2^X in multiple defines
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2018-11-29T08:47:04Z ManDay: so instead of writing  (+ 1 (expt 2 x)) in all the defines, I want to have that in a single var
2018-11-29T08:47:45Z Zipheir: And x is determined at runtime?
2018-11-29T08:48:07Z ManDay: Zipheir: not really, no. but for the sake of the argument assume it were
2018-11-29T08:48:19Z ManDay: (it's a kind of configuration variable)
2018-11-29T08:48:24Z Zipheir: Right.
2018-11-29T08:48:52Z Zipheir: So (define x #f) and (set! x (+ 1 (expt 2 x))) should do it, no?
2018-11-29T08:49:08Z ManDay: Zipheir: yes, that's what I'd expect a macro to expand to
2018-11-29T08:49:17Z Zipheir: Sorry, (set! my-global-val (+ 1 (expt 2 x)))
2018-11-29T08:49:29Z ManDay: well, kinda...
2018-11-29T08:50:08Z ManDay: more like  (define f #f) (define g #f) (let ((y (+ (expt 2 x) 1))) (set! f ...) (set! g ...))
2018-11-29T08:50:32Z ManDay: i'd just would like to write a macro which makes the original expression work by redefining let
2018-11-29T08:50:50Z ManDay: (that is, with my macro definition typing (let ((local1 #f) (local2 #t)) (define x (cons local1 local2))) should work "as expected")
2018-11-29T08:50:59Z Zipheir: So essentially you have some config variables, and other variables which are set from those config vars.
2018-11-29T08:51:22Z ManDay: Zipheir: s/other variables/other variables and procedures/
2018-11-29T08:51:28Z ManDay: yes
2018-11-29T08:53:16Z Zipheir: You could write a procedure that takes the configuration variables to a record whose slots are all the "configured" values.
2018-11-29T08:54:45Z Zipheir: (let ((config (make-config v0 v1 ...))) (if (> 10 (config-widget-number config)) ...))
2018-11-29T08:56:57Z Zipheir: But it seems like you're trying to emit all the configured values/procedures with the configuration baked-in, as it were. That might be a nightmare to debug.
2018-11-29T09:02:33Z ManDay: i don't follow. isn't your record suggestion the same as ogamita's vector suggestion?
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2018-11-29T09:02:54Z ManDay: my only intend here is to not pollute the namespace with auxilliary variables (not even one)
2018-11-29T09:03:15Z ManDay: of course, i could reduce the amount of pollution by putting all into a single structure, but that's not really my point
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2018-11-29T09:10:38Z Zipheir: Yes, I suppose it is the same as ogamita's suggestion, or at least the result is the same in terms of the number of variables it introduces.
2018-11-29T09:11:25Z Zipheir: Do you have a paste of what you've got so far?
2018-11-29T09:12:17Z ManDay: of what? of the macro? I haven't started writing that. i suppose practically it will be a waste of effort (2 hours figuring it out vs. one variable remove from global ns)
2018-11-29T09:12:50Z ManDay: if I need, i can go down the set! route anyway
2018-11-29T09:13:04Z Zipheir: That's probably the simplest way.
2018-11-29T09:13:09Z ManDay: it's just I'd like generally to be able to write (let ((local1 #f) (local2 #t)) (define x (cons local1 local2)))
2018-11-29T09:13:32Z ManDay: i don't see why it shouldn't be necessary or why (defines) can't make up a valid let-body
2018-11-29T09:13:40Z ManDay: s/necessary/possible
2018-11-29T09:15:06Z Zipheir: They do? Internal defines are part of the standard. But you mean wrapping top-level defines in let, right?
2018-11-29T09:16:44Z Zipheir: Incidentally, that (let ((local1 #f) ...) (define x ...)) expression compiles fine in CHICKEN.
2018-11-29T09:16:48Z ManDay: yeah. well... if you call em that, it's like "by definition". never heard of internal defines, tho
2018-11-29T09:17:03Z ManDay: oh well, maybe I should go for chicken then
2018-11-29T09:17:16Z wasamasa: it's not standards-compliant though and they have a few bugs around it
2018-11-29T09:17:30Z wasamasa: like, if the define isn't the first thing in the let body, things can break
2018-11-29T09:17:39Z Zipheir: Right.
2018-11-29T09:18:05Z ManDay: i suppose that's fair. defines are more like define!s
2018-11-29T09:19:03Z wasamasa: https://bugs.call-cc.org/ticket/1309
2018-11-29T09:19:12Z wasamasa: https://bugs.call-cc.org/ticket/1294
2018-11-29T09:20:54Z Zipheir: Internal defines are somewhat gross.
2018-11-29T09:22:26Z Zipheir: It's super late here. Good<time of day>, all.
2018-11-29T09:22:31Z ManDay: gn
2018-11-29T09:22:37Z wasamasa: yeah, you're probably better off with letrec
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2018-11-29T09:22:55Z ManDay: what's letrec got to do with it?
2018-11-29T09:24:37Z wasamasa: internal defines behave like letrec
2018-11-29T09:25:21Z ManDay: you're kind of missing the point of the original issue here ;-P
2018-11-29T09:25:27Z ManDay: nvm tho ;)
2018-11-29T09:26:02Z wasamasa: the original issue misses the point of scheme
2018-11-29T09:26:13Z ManDay: might be
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2018-11-29T11:03:01Z ManDay: ping
2018-11-29T11:03:11Z ManDay: good! still here!
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2018-11-29T13:46:13Z jcowan: TIL that (define (plus . x) (if (null? x) 0 (+ (car x) (apply plus (cdr x)))) is actually quadratic in the size of x, which is quite disturbing
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2018-11-29T13:46:50Z ManDay: jcowan: Uhm, because it's not properly tail recursive?
2018-11-29T13:47:45Z ManDay: also, I didn't know that (define (f . a) ...) is a thing
2018-11-29T13:47:48Z jcowan: No, because it has to copy x on every recursive call.
2018-11-29T13:48:06Z ManDay: Ah, it's just for (lambda a ...)
2018-11-29T13:48:24Z jcowan: yes
2018-11-29T13:49:16Z ogamita: jcowan: do you mean that apply will copy the list?  Is it specified so in rnrs?  In CL, apply can not copy the list.
2018-11-29T13:49:45Z ManDay: so what about the proper tail recursive version then? (define (plus . x) (if (null? (cdr x)) (car x) (apply plus (+ (car x) (cadr x)) (cdr x))))
2018-11-29T13:50:35Z ogamita: ManDay: you can also have mandatory parameters: (define (f a b . r) …)  = (define f (lambda (a b . r) …))
2018-11-29T13:51:01Z ManDay: ogamita: Yeah, that was familar. I just never done it without the mandatory ones
2018-11-29T13:51:13Z ManDay: (I mean in the (define)-shorthand)
2018-11-29T13:51:37Z jcowan: specifically, Scheme requires that the list of rest-parameters be newly consed, and since the procedure doesn't know if it's being called by apply or not, there we are.  Tail recursion affects stack space but not (normally) time.
2018-11-29T13:52:07Z jcowan: (Racket probably doesn't copy, but Racket pairs aren't mutable.)
2018-11-29T13:52:17Z ManDay: good on racket
2018-11-29T13:52:27Z jcowan shrugs
2018-11-29T13:52:46Z ManDay: non-pure deserves to suffer all kind of consequences
2018-11-29T13:52:57Z jcowan: Immutable pairs are a Good Thing, but standard Scheme pairs are mutable unless part of a literal constant.  Which is why I wrote a SRFI for immutable pairs.
2018-11-29T13:53:58Z confusedwanderer: this is very surprising to me
2018-11-29T13:54:27Z ogamita: CL says that programs must not mutate &rest lists :-)  problem solved…   clhs 3.4.1.3 says <05:56:49><beach> Because it is specified that COMPILE-FILE wraps the compilation in WITH-COMPILATION-UNIT.
2018-11-29T13:54:27Z ogamita: <05:57:07><fiddlerwoaroof> Yeah, it just occurred to me to wonder if this was true more generally
2018-11-29T13:54:55Z ogamita: Nope. It says: The value of a rest parameter is permitted, but not required, to share structure with the last argument to
2018-11-29T13:54:55Z ogamita:  
2018-11-29T13:54:58Z ogamita: apply.
2018-11-29T13:55:20Z ogamita: The value of a rest parameter is permitted, but not required, to share structure with the last argument to
2018-11-29T13:56:09Z ogamita: Damned, this copy-and-paste across environments is awful…
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2018-11-29T14:04:39Z ManDay_: Reminds me of https://pics.me.me/sxfjan-theyre-called-leggings-because-u-put-ur-le-sxfjan-28991342.png
2018-11-29T14:04:51Z ManDay_: (your pasting trouble, that is)
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2018-11-29T14:28:09Z edw: jcowan: I wrote some notes about the contents of the straw poll. (I'm interested in writing one or more of the proposed modules.) The bytestrings proposal, though, I think it needs to be expanded to be made analgous to SRFI-159; that would be a hguge win for any who ever had to build a network packet.
2018-11-29T14:28:15Z edw: Ah, the URL: <https://gist.github.com/edw/e37590d2ae07d7b0b82dcf6fc360dde7>
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2018-11-29T14:30:11Z jcowan: edw: Thank you for volunteering!  (I would have said so before, but I am not currently ooking at who-voted-how, just watching the pie charts as they grow.
2018-11-29T14:31:25Z edw: You are what you measure.
2018-11-29T14:33:06Z edw: Hey, it's better than writing curly-brace and JSON parsers!
2018-11-29T14:34:03Z edw: That may or may not run in quadratic time, because they don't use lemonade.
2018-11-29T14:49:44Z jcowan: Also, the specs are of course only tentative, so modifications are solicited.  I don't quite understand your comments on bytestrings, though
2018-11-29T14:53:07Z edw: I was looking at the constructor, and its flexibility got me thinking: shouldn't it, in addition to accepting numbers <256 and 7-bit ASCII and byte vectors, also take a byte string combinator? And then I thought, wait, what if you don't want to create a byte string, you just want to pump a byte string through a port? And voila, at that point you have a bytestring analog of SRFI-159's SHOW procedure.
2018-11-29T14:54:35Z jcowan: Okay, I'll add a procedure that accepts a port followed by the same arguments as bytestring,
2018-11-29T14:55:09Z jcowan: I am not sure of the merits of having combinators, though
2018-11-29T14:55:39Z edw: Disentangling those two things makes sense.
2018-11-29T14:56:46Z edw: And there would be positive efficiency implications for the new procedure, as it would allow an implementation to avoid copying.
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2018-11-29T14:57:41Z edw: And, finally, one could write a fancy-schmancy combinator thingamajig atop that.
2018-11-29T14:59:56Z jcowan: Done.
2018-11-29T15:00:03Z edw: Merci.
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2018-11-29T15:08:17Z ManDay_: jcowan: what is the straw poll?
2018-11-29T15:09:56Z jcowan: It gives me guidance about some things that may or may not wind up on the next full vote.  If people care about something, it is more likely to go in than if they don't.
2018-11-29T15:11:23Z ManDay_: I must have missed the URL to it?
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2018-11-29T15:16:43Z jcowan: https://tinyurl.com/orange-straw-poll
2018-11-29T15:18:09Z ManDay_: ty
2018-11-29T15:18:18Z jcowan: and now https://tinyurl.com/tangerine-ballot
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2018-11-29T17:38:06Z Zipheir: jcowan: Is there an application process to become a voter in those polls?
2018-11-29T17:38:57Z jcowan: If you voted in any earlier election, no.
2018-11-29T17:39:27Z jcowan: If not, join scheme-reports-wg2@googlegroups.com and post a short reasonably original explanation of your interested in Scheme.
2018-11-29T17:40:49Z Zipheir: Ah, thanks.
2018-11-29T17:41:22Z Zipheir: I should have just read the Google forms page and saved your time.
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2018-11-29T17:52:46Z jcowan shrugs
2018-11-29T17:53:31Z jcowan: "What does it mean, 'one man one vote'?"  "Why, it means, '*One* bloody man, one bloody vote!'"
2018-11-29T17:54:07Z Riastradh: Sounds pretty communist to me.  Maybe the amount of say you have should depend on how much money you're willing to invest in it!
2018-11-29T17:54:20Z pjb: jcowan: so you count also the bloody cadavers?
2018-11-29T17:55:51Z qu1j0t3: jcowan: While we're here, can you explain 'let the dead bury the dead'? Saw it in a good novel I was reading and I realised I couldn't decode it.
2018-11-29T17:57:09Z qu1j0t3: Riastradh: Yes! Let's have a market for pricing votes! It's the only fair way
2018-11-29T17:57:28Z jcowan: edw: Thanks, LGTM
2018-11-29T17:57:36Z Riastradh: (Latter sentence is nearly verbatim from a Free Stater I met on a flight, shortly before I started smiling, nodding, and backing away slowly.)
2018-11-29T17:59:35Z qu1j0t3: :D
2018-11-29T18:00:19Z pjb: What if the bloody man casts his vote and dies.  Why should he get one full more vote than the bloddy man who dies, just before casting his vote?
2018-11-29T18:00:48Z pjb: There are voting systems where 1 man = 1 vote proportional to his expected life.
2018-11-29T18:01:03Z qu1j0t3: *looks around* I can seee the appeal of that
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2018-11-29T18:01:16Z pjb: So babies get 70, and old people may get 10 or 5 or less…
2018-11-29T18:02:00Z pjb: (parents get an automatic procuration from their children until they're of legal voting age).
2018-11-29T18:02:39Z qu1j0t3: divide a parent's vote value by the number of children
2018-11-29T18:03:38Z aeth: how about we divide the unevenness of the votes alphabetically?
2018-11-29T18:04:04Z aeth: we can use IRC nicks, but only nicks chosen before the rule was decided, for fairness. e.g. a's get 70 votes
2018-11-29T18:04:09Z qu1j0t3: lgtm
2018-11-29T18:04:09Z aeth: z's get 1 vote
2018-11-29T18:04:57Z aeth: (People without an IRC nick at the moment of the decision are assumed to be a z, for fairness, since otherwise they'd immediately choose something beginning with a)
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2018-11-29T18:12:38Z Riastradh: There remains the question of what to do with the ballots once cast, however they are apportioned to the voters.
2018-11-29T18:13:15Z Riastradh: I like the randomized ballot method.  Take all of the however million or billion ballots anyone in the voting population has cast, put them into a giant hat, mix them around real well, and then pull one out at random to decide who the winner is.
2018-11-29T18:14:20Z edw: A bit like a quantum phenomenom.
2018-11-29T18:14:51Z Riastradh: Unlike ranked choice single-transferrable vote, approval voting, &c. it's the only way that transcends both Arrow's theorem, Gibbard's theorem, &c.
2018-11-29T18:17:04Z jcowan: iggerant seppos don't know what "bloody" means
2018-11-29T18:26:58Z pjb: Riastradh: if you can pull one at random, you've not mixed them good enough.
2018-11-29T18:28:26Z pjb: Riastradh: you should mix them with a blender, until they're all liquified. :-)
2018-11-29T18:28:51Z aeth: alternatively, we can write a strong AI and it can decide for us
2018-11-29T18:29:04Z pjb: Ok, but *I* get to write it!
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2018-11-29T18:30:22Z aeth: as long as I provide the data it uses
2018-11-29T18:31:20Z gwatt: and I'll interpret the results...
2018-11-29T18:31:40Z gwatt: Oh look, my favorite won! What are the odds...
2018-11-29T18:35:57Z pjb: That said, I note a dire underutilsation of computers and models in political policy decisions.
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2018-11-29T19:17:43Z Zipheir: Computers and models are constantly used in policy decisions, but mostly to launder responsibility.
2018-11-29T19:20:27Z Zipheir: c.f. Josef Weizenbaum, "Computer Power and Human Reason", there are several chapters about the tendency during the Vietnam war to explain insane decisions in terms suspiciously close to "the computer told us to do it!".
2018-11-29T19:21:45Z edw: I hear echos of "communism would work if only *real* communism were tried" in calls for *real* technocracy.
2018-11-29T19:22:39Z Zipheir: edw: You said it, good sir/madam.
2018-11-29T19:22:40Z edw: The fundamental problems of politics are not problems of means but of ends.
2018-11-29T19:23:34Z ober: the single most important rule of politics is a tautalogical, and redundant pleonasm.
2018-11-29T19:26:32Z edw consults dictionary.
2018-11-29T19:27:22Z edw: ober: Your statement is like thrice redundant. Irony?
2018-11-29T19:27:37Z ober: :P
2018-11-29T19:27:55Z ober: the quintessence of any good political discourse
2018-11-29T19:28:31Z edw: We know who's running for mayor of #scheme-town!
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2018-11-29T19:46:39Z Zipheir: "I have nothing to say / and I am saying it." --John Cage
2018-11-29T19:51:09Z edw: jcowan: <https://github.com/thunknyc/scm-integer-set>
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2018-11-30T00:15:41Z mejja: Riastradh, http://paste.call-cc.org/paste?id=326f8e28c28db349dc503da3da1fce441c8515e6#a1
2018-11-30T00:17:05Z mejja: Riastradh, gambit and chez gives exact results, why not mit?
2018-11-30T00:18:26Z Riastradh: 'Cos there's no special case for zero real part, so the angle is off by the error of the floating-point number nearest to pi/2.
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2018-11-30T02:41:59Z buhman: I'm a scheme noob; I'm trying to make a thread that runs an event loop in the background, but still be able to redefine top-level functions that are being called in that thread
2018-11-30T02:42:39Z buhman: is there some special magic I need to do this?
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2018-11-30T02:46:10Z buhman: http://paste.debian.net/1053805/
2018-11-30T02:47:00Z buhman: I'd like to be able to change the definition of "event-loop" there, and have that change the behavior of the thread
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2018-11-30T02:51:11Z cobax: does anyone know if effect handlers can be implemented in terms of set, new_prompt and cupto ?
2018-11-30T02:52:53Z cobax: a related question, does anyone know if multi-prompt shift/reset can be implemented in terms of simple shift/reset as that in OchaCaml?
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2018-11-30T07:34:02Z ecraven: buhman: just call some other function (process-thread), and redefine that.. event-loop is executing, I don't know of any Scheme where you can redefine currently executing functions
2018-11-30T07:34:15Z ecraven: so event-loop calls process-thread, which you just redefine
2018-11-30T07:34:21Z ecraven: also, this all depends on your actual Scheme implementation of choice
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2018-11-30T07:42:38Z buhman: ecraven: ahh, that makes sense
2018-11-30T07:51:32Z wasamasa: buhman: just add an extra layer of indirection by putting the procedure called over and over again into a variable, then you can set! the variable to a different procedure
2018-11-30T07:51:54Z wasamasa: buhman: so, refactor the event-loop a bit
2018-11-30T07:56:56Z buhman: yeah, I was being dumb, thinking I already had the indirection by wrapping event-loop in a lambda
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2018-11-30T08:12:02Z Zipheir: Changing the behavior of another thread by mutating a global variable screams race condition... but I suppose it's OK for non-production stuff.
2018-11-30T08:14:12Z wasamasa: ask Kooda about it, he does some quite neat tricks for developing games with csi
2018-11-30T08:14:31Z wasamasa: some going as far as redefining define
2018-11-30T08:15:05Z brendyyn: Is there a scheme with tools for writing Qt GUI applications?
2018-11-30T08:15:41Z wasamasa: there is a very basic qt and qt-light egg in CHICKEN
2018-11-30T08:16:20Z wasamasa: the only lisp I'm aware of with usable qt integration is CL with shinmera's qt libraries
2018-11-30T08:16:29Z brendyyn: ok i found for chicken 4
2018-11-30T08:16:36Z wasamasa: see https://github.com/Shinmera/qtools
2018-11-30T08:16:39Z buhman: wasamasa: yeah, game development in csi/run-scheme is exactly my goal
2018-11-30T08:17:46Z brendyyn: I'm wondering If I could develop guile bindings to work qt, but i'd have to learn by studying existing code. Qt is C++ I think
2018-11-30T08:18:21Z wasamasa: worse, Qt is huge
2018-11-30T08:18:23Z Zipheir: GUIs aren't Scheme's strong point atm, unfortunately.
2018-11-30T08:18:50Z Zipheir: Yeah, it's a C++ monster.
2018-11-30T08:18:52Z brendyyn: Well, I'd like to improve the situation :p, but I'm a noob
2018-11-30T08:20:31Z wasamasa: I wrote some wrappers for C4, but they're far from exhaustive or useful
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2018-11-30T08:21:41Z brendyyn: I guess this is why people write Qt GUI's, but many people say Qt is better in many ways
2018-11-30T08:22:22Z Zipheir: ...than GTK+?
2018-11-30T08:22:29Z brendyyn: yep
2018-11-30T08:22:39Z Zipheir: That's the usual duality in the *nix world :)
2018-11-30T08:23:08Z wasamasa: I don't like qt much, but it's hard to deny that they got their shit together, unlike what gtk people pull
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2018-11-30T08:23:56Z brendyyn: I mean there seems to be a lean towards Qt from all the random internet comments I've seen
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2018-11-30T08:27:57Z Zipheir: Both of the major GUI toolkits are massively overcomplicated and have 5 billion dependencies. Lightweight things like IUP seem a little more promising, if limited.
2018-11-30T08:29:00Z Zipheir: And this is why we're still writing curses UIs...
2018-11-30T08:29:13Z brendyyn: or using electron
2018-11-30T08:30:18Z wasamasa: if only IUP had a sane build system :P
2018-11-30T08:30:30Z Zipheir: Eww, not Electron.
2018-11-30T08:30:43Z wasamasa: they don't like make, so they made a make wrapper...
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2018-11-30T08:31:11Z Zipheir: That doesn't sound promising.
2018-11-30T08:31:22Z brendyyn: Seems there is really no good choice
2018-11-30T08:31:27Z Zipheir: After the success of autohell, what could go wrong?
2018-11-30T08:32:27Z wasamasa: I've been told the dev version of IUP works with recent GTK
2018-11-30T08:32:51Z Zipheir: Well, that's good.
2018-11-30T08:33:49Z wasamasa: the previous one looked bent out of shape on arch, I've had to make an old ubuntu vm to make it run properly
2018-11-30T08:34:00Z wasamasa: and install the libs manually outside of apt
2018-11-30T08:34:09Z brendyyn: I'm interesting in building a better messenger gui built on Signal's core
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2018-11-30T08:41:38Z buhman: https://ptpb.pw/XTZ2.webm run-scheme is so much fun
2018-11-30T08:43:37Z Riastradh: rudybot: eval +nan.1
2018-11-30T08:43:45Z rudybot: Riastradh: your r5rs sandbox is ready
2018-11-30T08:43:45Z rudybot: Riastradh: error: +nan.1: undefined; <NEWLINE>  cannot reference an identifier before its definition <NEWLINE>   in module: 'program
2018-11-30T08:44:06Z Riastradh: rudybot: eval +nan.0
2018-11-30T08:44:06Z rudybot: Riastradh: ; Value: +nan.0
2018-11-30T08:44:09Z Riastradh: rudybot: eval +nan.42
2018-11-30T08:44:09Z rudybot: Riastradh: error: +nan.42: undefined; <NEWLINE>  cannot reference an identifier before its definition <NEWLINE>   in module: 'program
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2018-11-30T13:31:53Z silas: Hi!  I'm learning some Scheme and I'd like to know if there is a way to spot wheter or not an expression is going to be evaluated or not.  E.g.: in (define a (+ 2 3)), the (+ 2 3) part is evaluated imediatelly, while in (lambda () (+ 2 3)), the sum is not evaluated.
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2018-11-30T13:33:54Z rain1: special forms can delay or selectively evaluate parts, lambda is one. (IF t c a) is another example if the test is true then consequent will be evaluated. otherwise the antecedent will be
2018-11-30T13:34:19Z rain1: there's also (AND x y) where y will only be evaluated if x is true
2018-11-30T13:34:34Z rain1: so you just need to know all the special forms
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2018-11-30T13:35:01Z rain1: a normal function like + will have all its part evaluated first
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2018-11-30T13:42:53Z silas: hmmmmm
2018-11-30T13:43:07Z silas: is there a "list of special forms" or something like that?
2018-11-30T13:43:09Z ogamita: Yes, it depends on the first symbol (or expression) in each list. In (foo bar baz), to know how to interpret bar and baz, you need to know what foo is. If it's the name of some syntax, then it depends on the syntax rules for that symbol.  If it's the name of a function, then the other elements of the list are evaluated, and the results are passed as arguments to the function.
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2018-11-30T13:43:25Z ogamita: silas: it's found in the standards (r5rs, r7rs).
2018-11-30T13:43:54Z silas: hm ok
2018-11-30T13:43:56Z silas: thank you guys
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2018-11-30T14:07:45Z edw: silas: Also, one can define macros that perform evaluation in non-standard ways. (That's one of the primary reasons macros exist.) If something looks like a flow of control construct, it's quite possibly going to do something atypical with its arguments. So ultimately you want to be able to find the source code or documentation for any given first-position value.
2018-11-30T14:09:09Z silas: Hmmmm.  Got that.  Thanks.
2018-11-30T14:10:01Z silas: Maybe someone thought about using a different symbol to make explicit things are not evaluated?  I know Racket uses bracket sometimes but IIRC it is just a common replacement for parenthesis.
2018-11-30T14:11:24Z edw: It's not as big a deal once you get used to it. There's AND, OR, IF, COND, CASE, LAMBDA, DO, LET, DEFINE, and uhh...
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2018-11-30T14:13:17Z edw: And there are patterns, e.g. if you see (WITH-BLAH B ...) you know it's probably just a shortcut for (CALL-WITH-BLAH (LAMBDA (B) ...)).
2018-11-30T14:13:56Z edw: (And is a macro...)
2018-11-30T14:17:25Z edw: Remembering learning Lisp however long ago, I got way more confused by the inability to randomly throw in extra parens for clarity, which one does when writing non-trivial numeric expressions in e.g. C.
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2018-11-30T14:37:09Z ogamita: silas: indeed, someone thought about using a different symbol to make things explicitely not evaluated. It's the symbol quote: (list (quote foo) (quote bar)) : foo and bar are not evaluatled.  (let ((foo 42) (bar 33)) (list foo bar)) ; foo and bar are evaluated.
2018-11-30T14:38:09Z ogamita: silas: remember that s-exp (symbolic expression) is a syntax for data! All lisp programs are written as lisp data!  Then we use the eval function to evaluate those data as programs, or the compile function to transform those data into binary programs.
2018-11-30T14:38:42Z ogamita: silas: Since eval or compile will take any data as program, we needed a way to tell them to take some data as data, hence the quote operator.
2018-11-30T14:39:16Z ogamita: silas: now, if course, since quote is a mouthful (and on card punchers, there were no abbrev), we added the 'x syntax for (quote x).
2018-11-30T14:39:38Z ogamita: (list 'foo 'bar) #| --> (foo bar) |#   (let ((foo 42) (bar 33)) (list foo bar)) #| --> (42 33) |#
2018-11-30T14:40:16Z ogamita: But (list (quote foo) (quote bar)) #| --> (foo bar) |#  is simplier to read (you don't need to know about the syntax of ' ).
2018-11-30T14:41:05Z edw: silas: And at this point, we're basically live-writing an Intro to Scheme book for you and you might be better served by simply reading one of the almost-certainly better-written and edited existing books.
2018-11-30T14:41:49Z ogamita: edw: you cannot add parentheses because parentheses are meaningful in lisp!  ( = Call    ) = ;   (if (= 0 x) (display y)) = Call if with: Call = with 0 and x; Call display with y;;
2018-11-30T14:42:47Z ogamita: silas: check http://schemers.org
2018-11-30T14:43:40Z edw: ogamita: I was relating that as a noob to the language in the late Twentieth Century it took me a while to let that sink in. I know the desire to correct is strong, but try reading my comment.
2018-11-30T14:44:27Z ogamita: edw: on the other hand, in C, C++, etc, you need to add parentheses to remove ambiguity (because, who knows the 27 precedence levels of the C operators?). Therefore in lisp, there is the minmium number of parentheses, while in C there's always more parentheses.
2018-11-30T14:44:50Z edw: Please stop lecturing me.
2018-11-30T14:44:53Z ogamita: edw: notice that you can always add a call to identity: (+ (identiy (* 3 4)) (identity (+ 42 33)))
2018-11-30T14:44:59Z edw: Again...
2018-11-30T14:45:00Z ogamita: Just trying to be helpful.
2018-11-30T14:45:14Z edw: But you didn't even read my comment.
2018-11-30T14:45:37Z silas: edw: scdp?
2018-11-30T14:45:49Z silas: ogamita: going to take a look at it. thanks!
2018-11-30T14:46:17Z silas: edw: *sicp
2018-11-30T14:47:39Z edw: Not familar with that abbreviation. There's SICP (which I like) and HtDP (which other people like) and The Scheme Programming Language (whihc I also like).
2018-11-30T14:48:30Z edw: The last is at <https://www.scheme.com/tspl4/>.
2018-11-30T14:48:32Z ogamita: edw: we were typing at the same time!
2018-11-30T14:49:47Z edw: ogamita: No problem, but please note that my original comment was saying that long ago, when I was learning the language, I *had* that confusion.
2018-11-30T14:50:18Z ogamita: edw: there are always newbies that have now the same problems as you had then.
2018-11-30T14:51:04Z edw: silas: TSPL was written by the primary author of Chez Scheme, FWIW.
2018-11-30T14:51:38Z edw: ogamita: So maybe don't direct the lecture at me specifically.
2018-11-30T14:51:44Z edw: But again, no problem.
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2018-11-30T17:05:34Z razzy: what is support for ed and mit scheme?
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2018-11-30T17:13:12Z edw: What do you mean by "support"? And: `ed' the (ancient) unix text editor?
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2018-11-30T17:18:40Z edw: Millennial.
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2018-11-30T17:27:32Z razzy: what?
2018-11-30T17:27:53Z razzy: i mean, how many people still use it, if any
2018-11-30T17:32:33Z ecraven: some people here use MIT/GNU Scheme. it is still actively developped, a lot of work has happened recently moving it towards R7RS
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2018-11-30T17:41:40Z razzy: cool, some work on ed?
2018-11-30T17:46:00Z pjb: I use ed from time to time.  Today I used it.
2018-11-30T17:46:45Z pjb: sudo ed /etc/crontab  in emacs shell more precisely, and changed one line…
2018-11-30T17:47:59Z gnomon: I worked with ed two days ago, when a coworker needed to programmatically edit about 3500 files in place.
2018-11-30T17:48:30Z gnomon: (It was editing YAML, so, you know.  Fashionable.)
2018-11-30T17:48:49Z razzy: eheh :]
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2018-11-30T18:09:56Z edw: YAML? YAML's played out. You should try this new data notation that you probably haven't heard of...
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2018-11-30T18:11:48Z gnomon: You mean TOML?
2018-11-30T18:12:14Z Riastradh: No, I mean DICKL and HARRYL.
2018-11-30T18:12:22Z edw: The Other Modelling Language?
2018-11-30T18:12:35Z edw: Er, Markup?
2018-11-30T18:13:19Z razzy: is there better data format than list?
2018-11-30T18:13:40Z razzy: i honestly think there is not
2018-11-30T18:13:53Z razzy: happy to convinced othervise
2018-11-30T18:14:09Z gnomon: Riastradh, HAH.  I was just talking about Tom & Jerry not ten minutes ago...
2018-11-30T18:14:31Z Riastradh: Damn, that would've made a better joke.
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2018-11-30T18:19:51Z Zipheir: razzy: You know that ed is the standard text editor, right? Anyone who says otherwise is a heretic.
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2018-11-30T18:26:07Z edw: razzy: All(?) Schemes have vectors e.g. (vector 1 2 3) or #(1 2 3). Note that #(...) quotes its contents so #(1 (+ 1 1) 3) does not evaluate to what you think it does.
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2018-11-30T18:39:53Z nolanv: ed is actually very nice for writing snippets, and for pasting formatted material into when you don't want your vi settings to mess with it.
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2018-11-30T18:42:30Z Riastradh: jcowan: You should have notation for quiet vs signalling NaN, and for NaN payload.
2018-11-30T18:42:55Z Riastradh: jcowan: Have you added hexadecimal floating-point yet?
2018-11-30T18:43:11Z Riastradh: jcowan: If you cribbed the code I wrote for MIT Scheme, crib it again because it was buggy.
2018-11-30T18:44:01Z jcowan: I have a NaN dissector API in the queue, but I see no need for notation, unless indeed we go with a notation that represents the bits in a double as 16 hex digits, as Henry Baker suggested
2018-11-30T18:44:25Z jcowan: Zipheir: I use `ex`; I'm willing to trade a little standardosity for a little convenience.
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2018-11-30T18:45:01Z Riastradh: I'm thinking {+,-}{s,}nan.{hexdigits}.
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2018-11-30T18:45:30Z jcowan: Write a SRFI and I'll put it on the lexical docket
2018-11-30T18:45:34Z Riastradh: This (a) covers the existing practice of +nan.0, (b) follows IEEE 754-2008 guidance.
2018-11-30T18:45:37Z Riastradh: What, you want me to do WORK?
2018-11-30T18:45:48Z jcowan is ruthless
2018-11-30T18:45:56Z jcowan: Actually, I have plenty of ruth
2018-11-30T18:46:17Z jcowan: Also, in ex I can go to vi-mode to bounce on the % key when writing Lisp
2018-11-30T18:46:18Z razzy: i was hoping that scheme would be more for paraell processing by now. with scheduker and stuff
2018-11-30T18:46:39Z Riastradh: By the way I taught MIT Scheme to have (flo:sign-negative? x), (flo:nan-quiet? n), and (flo:nan-payload? n), the first of which works on any floating-point number and the latter two of which are limited to NaNs.  Not a great API but it gets things done.
2018-11-30T18:46:42Z jcowan: razzy: Parallel or concurrent?  SRFI 18 provides low-level concurrency
2018-11-30T18:46:43Z Riastradh: er
2018-11-30T18:46:45Z Riastradh: (flo:nan-payload n)
2018-11-30T18:46:58Z Riastradh: s/any floating-point number/any floating-point value/1
2018-11-30T18:47:45Z razzy: jcowan: concurrent is better term i guess
2018-11-30T18:47:47Z jcowan: Part of the trouble is that the bozos at IEEE specified the signaling/quiet bit but forgot to say which state is 1 and which is 0
2018-11-30T18:47:56Z jcowan: Racket has parallelism as well
2018-11-30T18:47:57Z Riastradh: jcowan: Huh?  1 is quiet, 0 is signalling.
2018-11-30T18:48:04Z jcowan: Nope, CPU-dependent
2018-11-30T18:49:22Z jcowan: perhaps this was fixed in 2008
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2018-11-30T18:51:13Z Riastradh: IEEE 754-2008, Sec. 6.2.1 `NaN encodings in binary formats', p. 35, first paragraph:  `A quiet NaN bit string should be encoded with the first bit (d1) of the trailing significand field T being 1.  A signaling NaN bit string should be encoded with the first bit of the trailing significand field being 0.'
2018-11-30T18:51:45Z jcowan: yes, it was.  IEEE 754:1985 left it open, and PA-RISC and old MIPS chips were 1 = signaling, 0 = quiet, against the general trend.
2018-11-30T18:52:25Z Riastradh: If anyone wants to update a Scheme that runs on PA-RISC and ancient MIPS, they can work out those details.
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2018-11-30T18:53:27Z jcowan nods
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2018-11-30T19:22:29Z jcowan: Similarly, the de facto byte order is now pretty much little-endian
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2018-11-30T19:55:04Z buhman: is there a less awkward way to express this? http://paste.debian.net/1053903/ maybe if there was a 'filter' that provided both the matching and non-matching elements?
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2018-11-30T19:58:11Z edw: buhman: SRFI-1's partition.
2018-11-30T19:59:13Z edw: buhman: From the SRFI: "Partitions the elements of list with predicate pred, and returns two values: the list of in-elements and the list of out-elements."
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2018-11-30T20:04:00Z Zipheir: buhman: Why do you build up the hs list? You don't use it in the continuation, er, base case of the loop.
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2018-11-30T20:05:47Z buhman: because I'm building two lists
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2018-11-30T20:06:02Z buhman: I just rewrote this using 'partition', which is now much more readable: http://paste.debian.net/1053905/
2018-11-30T20:06:28Z Zipheir: Oh, that wasn't all of the code.
2018-11-30T20:07:18Z Zipheir: buhman: Nice.
2018-11-30T20:07:22Z edw: buhman: Does your Scheme support let-values? It may be more to your liking.
2018-11-30T20:08:14Z buhman: https://wiki.call-cc.org/man/4/Non-standard%20macros%20and%20special%20forms#let-values this?
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2018-11-30T20:08:50Z buhman: ah, so use that instead of recieve?
2018-11-30T20:09:00Z ecraven: yes, let-values is in r7rs, receive is not
2018-11-30T20:09:03Z buhman: I did not know about this
2018-11-30T20:09:32Z edw: Choose according to the situation and your taste. It's a part of R7RS, so no longer "nonstandard."
2018-11-30T20:11:55Z Zipheir: Ah yes, the receive vs. let-values holy war. :)
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2018-11-30T20:12:33Z edw: Consult local laws and regulations before coding.
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2018-11-30T20:14:10Z Zipheir: s/laws and regulations/fatwas and papal bulls/
2018-11-30T20:17:02Z ecraven: Zipheir: I'd say with r7rs let-values has won, and the war is over
2018-11-30T20:17:18Z Zipheir: ecraven: Hopefully.
2018-11-30T20:18:50Z edw: The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants.
2018-11-30T20:19:17Z buhman: as an innocent bystander, I'm just glad I don't need to use call-with-values
2018-11-30T20:20:13Z Zipheir: There's nothing wrong with CWV and you can of course implement your favorite values forms in terms of it.
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2018-11-30T20:24:08Z Zipheir: Freedom is the name of the game in Scheme. The deep wizards will probably use hand-rolled CPS to do multiple values, anyway.
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2018-11-30T20:28:38Z pjb: jcowan: but for network byte order, which is still big-endian!
2018-11-30T20:32:56Z jonaslund: I think there's the odd network device that still might be big endian so at that level there's still reasons to keep with it
2018-11-30T20:33:18Z jonaslund: but for most larger machines yeah, little endian won
2018-11-30T20:33:46Z pjb: jonaslund: it doesn't matter, all the protocols specify big-endian!
2018-11-30T20:34:24Z jonaslund: pjb: i mean for future work also
2018-11-30T20:34:57Z ecraven: jonaslund: on the wire, big endian has won. so you need to work with both, probably forever
2018-11-30T20:35:05Z pjb: Yep.
2018-11-30T20:35:48Z pjb: Happily, nowadays you don't need to deal with little endian much.  High level programming languages, and symbol debuggers let you essentially ignore the intel processor you have to use…
2018-11-30T20:43:34Z Zipheir: https://commandcenter.blogspot.com/2012/04/byte-order-fallacy.html
2018-11-30T20:47:36Z pjb: ^ exactly.
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2018-11-30T21:11:09Z ober: little or big NA
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2018-11-30T23:38:25Z rain1: hey
2018-11-30T23:38:41Z rain1: im familiar with the tortoise and hare method of detecting a cyclic list
2018-11-30T23:38:59Z rain1: but what would you do to detect cycles in an arbitrary lisp expression?
2018-11-30T23:39:21Z rain1: I can imagine having a EQ? hash table and putting a new entry at every node
2018-11-30T23:39:27Z rain1: but is there a better way?
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2018-11-30T23:53:06Z rain1: http://www.rosettacode.org/wiki/Deepcopy#Scheme i have added my deepcopy code here
2018-11-30T23:53:56Z rain1: I wonder how display is implemented to support #X=
2018-11-30T23:54:14Z rain1: it seems like you have to pre-process the entire form before showing it
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2018-11-30T23:59:31Z pjb: rain1: no better way AFAIK, since here you have a tree, so you would need to fork several tortoises and several hares.  This is basically what the hash-table does.
2018-11-30T23:59:46Z rain1: ok, ty