2018-10-01T00:00:40Z prof_work16 quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2018-10-01T00:03:21Z f8l joined #scheme
2018-10-01T00:06:29Z acarrico joined #scheme
2018-10-01T00:09:41Z robotoad quit (Max SendQ exceeded)
2018-10-01T00:10:05Z xe0n24 joined #scheme
2018-10-01T00:11:07Z robotoad joined #scheme
2018-10-01T00:11:57Z karlguy quit (Quit: Leaving)
2018-10-01T00:14:30Z xe0n24 quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2018-10-01T00:22:15Z TheGreekOwl quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2018-10-01T00:29:19Z lritter quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
2018-10-01T00:37:49Z robotoad quit (Quit: robotoad)
2018-10-01T00:43:40Z acarrico quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2018-10-01T00:45:26Z acarrico joined #scheme
2018-10-01T00:59:29Z jcowan quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)
2018-10-01T00:59:56Z sockspls19 joined #scheme
2018-10-01T01:05:05Z sockspls19 quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2018-10-01T01:14:11Z GoldRin joined #scheme
2018-10-01T01:16:21Z acarrico quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2018-10-01T01:23:35Z GoldRin quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2018-10-01T01:32:19Z pjb joined #scheme
2018-10-01T01:55:06Z jao quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2018-10-01T01:58:46Z robotoad joined #scheme
2018-10-01T01:59:53Z jcowan joined #scheme
2018-10-01T02:01:41Z aib5 joined #scheme
2018-10-01T02:02:34Z robotoad quit (Client Quit)
2018-10-01T02:05:00Z pjb quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2018-10-01T02:07:01Z GoldRin joined #scheme
2018-10-01T02:08:45Z erratic quit (Quit: this server has gone to sleep)
2018-10-01T02:09:47Z aib5 quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2018-10-01T02:17:35Z robotoad joined #scheme
2018-10-01T02:26:29Z GoldRin quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
2018-10-01T02:34:11Z pjb joined #scheme
2018-10-01T02:35:50Z erratic joined #scheme
2018-10-01T02:37:25Z quipa quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2018-10-01T02:43:08Z daviid quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
2018-10-01T02:51:43Z erratic quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2018-10-01T02:53:36Z r1b joined #scheme
2018-10-01T02:58:12Z Zipheir joined #scheme
2018-10-01T03:05:30Z nullcone quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity)
2018-10-01T03:07:09Z pjb quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2018-10-01T03:16:18Z klovett quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2018-10-01T03:16:53Z klovett joined #scheme
2018-10-01T03:22:41Z ikanobori28 joined #scheme
2018-10-01T03:23:35Z ikanobori28 quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2018-10-01T03:28:00Z klovett quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2018-10-01T03:28:23Z klovett joined #scheme
2018-10-01T03:30:41Z P1RATEZ joined #scheme
2018-10-01T03:32:05Z nullcone joined #scheme
2018-10-01T03:40:51Z ale quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2018-10-01T03:42:57Z siraben quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
2018-10-01T03:43:03Z r1b quit (Quit: r1b)
2018-10-01T03:43:18Z erratic joined #scheme
2018-10-01T03:45:53Z cibs_ is now known as cibs
2018-10-01T03:47:07Z grif13 joined #scheme
2018-10-01T03:47:53Z siraben joined #scheme
2018-10-01T03:50:40Z grif13 quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2018-10-01T03:55:59Z brettgilio joined #scheme
2018-10-01T04:00:53Z brettgilio quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2018-10-01T04:32:33Z jcowan quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)
2018-10-01T04:48:00Z pjb joined #scheme
2018-10-01T04:49:33Z GoldRin joined #scheme
2018-10-01T04:52:17Z pjb quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2018-10-01T04:56:31Z toure|gone21 joined #scheme
2018-10-01T04:58:22Z toure|gone21 quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2018-10-01T05:01:56Z GoldRin quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2018-10-01T05:21:23Z GoldRin joined #scheme
2018-10-01T05:29:21Z GoldRin quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2018-10-01T05:54:48Z Zenton quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
2018-10-01T06:00:19Z lambda-11235 quit (Quit: Bye)
2018-10-01T06:14:36Z GoldRin joined #scheme
2018-10-01T06:19:20Z Guest37329 joined #scheme
2018-10-01T06:20:35Z GoldRin quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2018-10-01T06:22:57Z Guest37329 quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2018-10-01T06:49:31Z robotoad quit (Quit: robotoad)
2018-10-01T07:00:25Z SlyFerret22 joined #scheme
2018-10-01T07:03:33Z robotoad joined #scheme
2018-10-01T07:05:36Z SlyFerret22 quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2018-10-01T07:23:41Z oem joined #scheme
2018-10-01T07:34:06Z pjb joined #scheme
2018-10-01T07:35:19Z nikio_22 joined #scheme
2018-10-01T07:35:37Z InverseRhombus quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2018-10-01T07:39:23Z greatscottttt joined #scheme
2018-10-01T07:39:47Z nikio_22 quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2018-10-01T07:40:06Z jcowan joined #scheme
2018-10-01T07:46:41Z civodul joined #scheme
2018-10-01T07:47:21Z P1RATEZ quit
2018-10-01T07:47:40Z TheGreekOwl joined #scheme
2018-10-01T07:48:08Z TheGreekOwl quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2018-10-01T07:55:16Z oem quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2018-10-01T07:58:41Z GoldRin joined #scheme
2018-10-01T08:01:22Z ndim joined #scheme
2018-10-01T08:01:31Z ndim quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2018-10-01T08:03:45Z Guest3279 joined #scheme
2018-10-01T08:03:51Z xNinjaDNT5 joined #scheme
2018-10-01T08:07:37Z robotoad quit (Quit: robotoad)
2018-10-01T08:08:00Z pjb quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2018-10-01T08:12:26Z xNinjaDNT5 quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
2018-10-01T08:14:21Z Guest3279 quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2018-10-01T08:15:44Z robotoad joined #scheme
2018-10-01T08:25:44Z robotoad quit (Quit: robotoad)
2018-10-01T08:29:25Z RichardShadark joined #scheme
2018-10-01T08:29:44Z ggole joined #scheme
2018-10-01T08:40:30Z Zenton joined #scheme
2018-10-01T08:51:13Z quipa joined #scheme
2018-10-01T08:56:17Z sbp quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2018-10-01T08:56:22Z sbp_ joined #scheme
2018-10-01T09:03:05Z marvin2 quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2018-10-01T09:05:29Z nullcone quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity)
2018-10-01T09:06:57Z reverse_light joined #scheme
2018-10-01T09:08:17Z GoldRin quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2018-10-01T09:15:06Z dinfuehr_ joined #scheme
2018-10-01T09:16:51Z dinfuehr_ quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2018-10-01T09:23:32Z karoofishLg joined #scheme
2018-10-01T09:24:03Z karoofishLg quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2018-10-01T09:39:46Z Remramx joined #scheme
2018-10-01T09:40:25Z amz3 joined #scheme
2018-10-01T09:42:45Z toogs joined #scheme
2018-10-01T09:42:53Z Remramx quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2018-10-01T09:43:46Z khisanth_ quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2018-10-01T09:47:03Z jcowan quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)
2018-10-01T09:48:14Z jcowan joined #scheme
2018-10-01T09:56:15Z khisanth_ joined #scheme
2018-10-01T10:05:18Z pjb joined #scheme
2018-10-01T10:06:05Z Teppich joined #scheme
2018-10-01T10:06:31Z florilege joined #scheme
2018-10-01T10:11:44Z Teppich quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2018-10-01T10:25:04Z toogs quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2018-10-01T10:25:32Z toogs joined #scheme
2018-10-01T10:26:50Z toogs quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2018-10-01T10:28:54Z amz3 quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2018-10-01T10:38:15Z pjb quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2018-10-01T10:42:59Z marvin2 joined #scheme
2018-10-01T10:49:38Z InverseRhombus joined #scheme
2018-10-01T11:03:02Z RichardShadark quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2018-10-01T11:06:55Z lritter joined #scheme
2018-10-01T11:08:27Z lxsameerSu joined #scheme
2018-10-01T11:09:02Z lavaflow quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2018-10-01T11:13:59Z lxsameerSu quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2018-10-01T11:18:27Z jao joined #scheme
2018-10-01T11:18:56Z ale_ joined #scheme
2018-10-01T11:24:04Z nckx quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2018-10-01T11:32:32Z RichardShadark joined #scheme
2018-10-01T11:32:46Z RichardShadark quit (Client Quit)
2018-10-01T11:34:04Z lysanderslair joined #scheme
2018-10-01T11:34:33Z lysanderslair quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2018-10-01T11:41:39Z acarrico joined #scheme
2018-10-01T11:44:39Z muelleme joined #scheme
2018-10-01T11:46:36Z saki joined #scheme
2018-10-01T11:46:43Z saki quit (Excess Flood)
2018-10-01T11:47:51Z civodul quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 26.1))
2018-10-01T11:48:01Z saki joined #scheme
2018-10-01T11:48:06Z saki quit (Excess Flood)
2018-10-01T11:49:24Z muelleme quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2018-10-01T11:56:05Z pjb joined #scheme
2018-10-01T11:57:41Z InverseRhombus quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2018-10-01T11:59:39Z erkin joined #scheme
2018-10-01T12:01:53Z m1dnight_ quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.2)
2018-10-01T12:02:57Z m1dnight_ joined #scheme
2018-10-01T12:03:19Z saki joined #scheme
2018-10-01T12:03:23Z saki quit (Excess Flood)
2018-10-01T12:08:55Z sbp_ left #scheme
2018-10-01T12:21:56Z saki joined #scheme
2018-10-01T12:22:05Z saki quit (Excess Flood)
2018-10-01T12:27:29Z asilluron_ joined #scheme
2018-10-01T12:28:55Z asilluron_ quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2018-10-01T12:29:02Z pjb quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2018-10-01T12:30:28Z CoconutCrab quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2018-10-01T12:30:39Z saki joined #scheme
2018-10-01T12:30:45Z saki quit (Excess Flood)
2018-10-01T12:33:49Z DGASAU joined #scheme
2018-10-01T12:35:41Z florilege quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2018-10-01T12:50:35Z DGASAU quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2018-10-01T12:50:59Z DGASAU joined #scheme
2018-10-01T13:01:22Z saki joined #scheme
2018-10-01T13:01:28Z saki quit (Excess Flood)
2018-10-01T13:05:56Z lavaflow joined #scheme
2018-10-01T13:36:16Z jcowan quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)
2018-10-01T13:37:26Z badkins joined #scheme
2018-10-01T13:39:11Z florilege joined #scheme
2018-10-01T13:40:39Z jcowan joined #scheme
2018-10-01T13:41:14Z badkins_ joined #scheme
2018-10-01T13:43:34Z badkins quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2018-10-01T13:43:46Z jcowan quit (Read error: No route to host)
2018-10-01T13:44:04Z jcowan joined #scheme
2018-10-01T13:54:32Z jcowan quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)
2018-10-01T13:54:40Z maege- joined #scheme
2018-10-01T13:54:53Z badkins_ quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2018-10-01T13:55:10Z badkins joined #scheme
2018-10-01T13:57:44Z maege- quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2018-10-01T14:12:12Z erkin quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2018-10-01T14:15:25Z lambda-11235 joined #scheme
2018-10-01T14:15:39Z MacCoasterue joined #scheme
2018-10-01T14:15:40Z MacCoasterue quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2018-10-01T14:26:23Z pjb joined #scheme
2018-10-01T14:34:48Z jcowan joined #scheme
2018-10-01T14:40:28Z ski quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2018-10-01T14:47:49Z ski joined #scheme
2018-10-01T14:58:52Z pjb quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2018-10-01T14:59:30Z quipa quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
2018-10-01T15:08:36Z TheGreekOwl joined #scheme
2018-10-01T15:10:32Z ale_ quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
2018-10-01T15:22:50Z robotoad joined #scheme
2018-10-01T15:26:59Z psykozAD joined #scheme
2018-10-01T15:28:55Z psykozAD quit (K-Lined)
2018-10-01T15:31:12Z cemerick joined #scheme
2018-10-01T15:34:26Z ski quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2018-10-01T15:39:46Z InverseRhombus joined #scheme
2018-10-01T15:42:46Z badkins quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
2018-10-01T15:48:22Z cemerick_ joined #scheme
2018-10-01T15:50:30Z greatscottttt quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.9)
2018-10-01T15:52:28Z cemerick quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
2018-10-01T15:52:57Z cemerick joined #scheme
2018-10-01T15:54:14Z cemerick_ quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2018-10-01T15:56:00Z sethalves joined #scheme
2018-10-01T15:59:34Z lambda-11235 quit (Quit: Bye)
2018-10-01T16:00:42Z muelleme joined #scheme
2018-10-01T16:05:28Z muelleme quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2018-10-01T16:06:29Z ngz joined #scheme
2018-10-01T16:20:11Z TheGreekOwl quit (Quit: I must go, my planet needs me.)
2018-10-01T16:38:39Z massma joined #scheme
2018-10-01T16:38:58Z jcowan quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)
2018-10-01T16:39:31Z jcowan joined #scheme
2018-10-01T16:41:12Z mar3kII joined #scheme
2018-10-01T16:42:21Z florilege quit (Quit: Lost terminal)
2018-10-01T16:42:41Z mar3kII quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2018-10-01T16:43:44Z jcowan quit (Client Quit)
2018-10-01T16:43:45Z badkins joined #scheme
2018-10-01T16:50:02Z jcowan joined #scheme
2018-10-01T16:55:14Z pjb joined #scheme
2018-10-01T16:57:54Z klovett quit
2018-10-01T17:00:04Z jcowan quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)
2018-10-01T17:06:58Z jcowan joined #scheme
2018-10-01T17:16:37Z Tranquility joined #scheme
2018-10-01T17:18:01Z quipa joined #scheme
2018-10-01T17:21:03Z Tranquility quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2018-10-01T17:25:26Z ale_ joined #scheme
2018-10-01T17:33:07Z daviid joined #scheme
2018-10-01T17:40:03Z shmalukh joined #scheme
2018-10-01T17:40:04Z shmalukh quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2018-10-01T17:45:09Z RichardShadark joined #scheme
2018-10-01T17:47:16Z Zenton quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2018-10-01T17:51:49Z RichardShadark quit (Quit: Quit)
2018-10-01T17:52:03Z RichardShadark joined #scheme
2018-10-01T17:53:56Z klovett joined #scheme
2018-10-01T18:02:25Z amz3 joined #scheme
2018-10-01T18:22:24Z Zipheir quit (Quit: leaving)
2018-10-01T18:33:43Z f8l quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2018-10-01T18:33:54Z ngz quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2018-10-01T18:34:57Z f8l joined #scheme
2018-10-01T18:38:15Z alezost joined #scheme
2018-10-01T18:41:43Z amz3 quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2018-10-01T18:42:08Z amz3 joined #scheme
2018-10-01T18:46:46Z muelleme joined #scheme
2018-10-01T18:51:20Z muelleme quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2018-10-01T18:55:37Z lambda-11235 joined #scheme
2018-10-01T18:58:09Z hugh_marera joined #scheme
2018-10-01T19:14:18Z robotoad quit (Quit: robotoad)
2018-10-01T19:16:18Z TheGreekOwl joined #scheme
2018-10-01T19:23:29Z amz3 quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2018-10-01T19:25:25Z amz3 joined #scheme
2018-10-01T19:27:02Z MaryHadalittleil joined #scheme
2018-10-01T19:29:21Z MaryHadalittleil quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2018-10-01T19:35:20Z ggole quit (Quit: ggole)
2018-10-01T19:42:12Z badkins quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2018-10-01T19:44:58Z longshi joined #scheme
2018-10-01T20:08:45Z Zenton joined #scheme
2018-10-01T20:13:05Z pierpal joined #scheme
2018-10-01T20:17:58Z lambda-11235 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2018-10-01T20:25:20Z nullcone joined #scheme
2018-10-01T20:35:10Z badkins joined #scheme
2018-10-01T20:36:49Z wigust- joined #scheme
2018-10-01T20:37:14Z alezost quit (Quit: I live in GuixSD <http://www.gnu.org/s/guix> and Emacs <http://www.gnu.org/s/emacs>)
2018-10-01T20:37:45Z wigust quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2018-10-01T20:43:23Z erkin joined #scheme
2018-10-01T20:47:44Z robotoad joined #scheme
2018-10-01T21:00:45Z mdiluzcS joined #scheme
2018-10-01T21:07:19Z logan-BH joined #scheme
2018-10-01T21:07:41Z mdiluzcS quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2018-10-01T21:13:55Z logan-BH quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2018-10-01T21:17:08Z longshi quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.2)
2018-10-01T21:18:19Z dave24 joined #scheme
2018-10-01T21:18:45Z dave24 quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2018-10-01T21:19:09Z klovett quit
2018-10-01T21:39:21Z acarrico quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2018-10-01T21:55:28Z cemerick quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2018-10-01T22:00:18Z klovett joined #scheme
2018-10-01T22:04:31Z ArneBab quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2018-10-01T22:05:10Z ArneBab joined #scheme
2018-10-01T22:05:10Z ArneBab quit (Changing host)
2018-10-01T22:05:10Z ArneBab joined #scheme
2018-10-01T22:19:50Z Zenton quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2018-10-01T22:20:06Z Zenton joined #scheme
2018-10-01T22:24:44Z lritter quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2018-10-01T22:24:50Z acarrico joined #scheme
2018-10-01T22:25:20Z hugh_marera quit (Quit: hugh_marera)
2018-10-01T22:31:03Z daviid quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2018-10-01T22:40:00Z pod joined #scheme
2018-10-01T22:44:28Z jcowan quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)
2018-10-01T22:46:07Z pod quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2018-10-01T22:55:17Z Qten joined #scheme
2018-10-01T23:02:41Z Qten quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2018-10-01T23:03:44Z robotoad quit (Quit: robotoad)
2018-10-01T23:04:26Z daviid joined #scheme
2018-10-01T23:10:23Z GoGiKc joined #scheme
2018-10-01T23:11:55Z GoGiKc quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2018-10-01T23:15:05Z massma quit (Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 26.1)
2018-10-01T23:16:36Z klovett quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2018-10-01T23:17:13Z klovett joined #scheme
2018-10-01T23:18:46Z RichardShadark quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2018-10-01T23:23:33Z sralSn joined #scheme
2018-10-01T23:25:57Z sralSn quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2018-10-01T23:26:51Z mange joined #scheme
2018-10-01T23:37:30Z TheGreekOwl quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2018-10-01T23:44:45Z drewc quit (Quit: ZNC 1.6.3+deb1 - http://znc.in)
2018-10-01T23:45:25Z drewc joined #scheme
2018-10-01T23:46:31Z erkin quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2018-10-01T23:49:02Z drewc quit (Client Quit)
2018-10-01T23:51:13Z drewc joined #scheme
2018-10-01T23:53:15Z jao quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2018-10-01T23:55:57Z erkin joined #scheme
2018-10-02T00:01:56Z jao joined #scheme
2018-10-02T00:04:32Z deuill quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2018-10-02T00:04:41Z aeth: How does "GNU Guile" not run out of stack space? "GNU" isn't tail recursive.
2018-10-02T00:09:53Z erkin quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2018-10-02T00:17:29Z quipa quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2018-10-02T00:20:07Z erkin joined #scheme
2018-10-02T00:22:00Z jcowan joined #scheme
2018-10-02T00:23:55Z siraben: Ba dum *tish*
2018-10-02T00:25:37Z cemerick joined #scheme
2018-10-02T00:35:10Z acarrico quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2018-10-02T00:47:26Z muelleme joined #scheme
2018-10-02T00:50:33Z erkin quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2018-10-02T00:51:39Z erkin joined #scheme
2018-10-02T00:52:31Z muelleme quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2018-10-02T00:52:45Z jcowan quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)
2018-10-02T00:55:15Z elderK joined #scheme
2018-10-02T00:59:33Z pjb quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2018-10-02T01:00:32Z pjb joined #scheme
2018-10-02T01:01:26Z jcowan joined #scheme
2018-10-02T01:12:04Z jp quit (Quit: https://ptpb.pw/~docrivers.gif)
2018-10-02T01:14:59Z saki joined #scheme
2018-10-02T01:17:58Z saki quit (Client Quit)
2018-10-02T01:21:27Z pjb quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2018-10-02T01:22:25Z acarrico joined #scheme
2018-10-02T01:28:01Z klovett quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2018-10-02T01:28:18Z klovett joined #scheme
2018-10-02T01:46:49Z badkins quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2018-10-02T01:49:50Z jp joined #scheme
2018-10-02T01:57:11Z jcowan: jjj
2018-10-02T02:04:03Z klovett quit
2018-10-02T02:06:33Z klovett joined #scheme
2018-10-02T02:08:29Z robotoad joined #scheme
2018-10-02T02:22:05Z jao quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
2018-10-02T02:33:26Z r1b joined #scheme
2018-10-02T02:35:53Z jcowan quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)
2018-10-02T02:45:08Z ale_ quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
2018-10-02T02:52:43Z jcowan joined #scheme
2018-10-02T03:09:24Z daviid quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2018-10-02T03:10:21Z utherVb joined #scheme
2018-10-02T03:11:54Z utherVb quit (K-Lined)
2018-10-02T03:23:17Z elderK quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity)
2018-10-02T03:28:44Z Welh0Yx joined #scheme
2018-10-02T03:28:52Z Welh0Yx quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2018-10-02T03:29:34Z pierpal quit (Quit: Poof)
2018-10-02T03:29:51Z pierpal joined #scheme
2018-10-02T03:33:32Z pierpal quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2018-10-02T03:33:50Z pierpal joined #scheme
2018-10-02T03:41:29Z r1b quit (Quit: r1b)
2018-10-02T03:45:52Z jcowan quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)
2018-10-02T03:48:02Z pierpal quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2018-10-02T03:48:13Z pierpal joined #scheme
2018-10-02T03:53:36Z jcowan joined #scheme
2018-10-02T03:53:46Z RichardShadark joined #scheme
2018-10-02T03:54:00Z jcowan quit (Client Quit)
2018-10-02T03:55:10Z siraben quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2018-10-02T03:55:35Z siraben joined #scheme
2018-10-02T04:00:33Z klovett quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2018-10-02T04:01:09Z klovett joined #scheme
2018-10-02T04:01:22Z siraben quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
2018-10-02T04:09:13Z pierpal quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2018-10-02T04:26:05Z marvin2 quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2018-10-02T04:28:00Z klovett quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2018-10-02T04:28:18Z klovett joined #scheme
2018-10-02T04:39:36Z RichardShadark quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
2018-10-02T04:41:20Z RichardShadark joined #scheme
2018-10-02T04:47:58Z pierpal joined #scheme
2018-10-02T05:01:23Z pierpal quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2018-10-02T05:11:05Z keep_learning joined #scheme
2018-10-02T05:12:09Z hugh_marera joined #scheme
2018-10-02T05:20:06Z pjb joined #scheme
2018-10-02T05:20:53Z lavaflow quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2018-10-02T05:22:57Z lavaflow joined #scheme
2018-10-02T05:27:03Z pjb quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2018-10-02T05:30:42Z lambda-11235 joined #scheme
2018-10-02T05:38:58Z cemerick quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2018-10-02T05:46:01Z klovett quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2018-10-02T05:48:40Z r0b-DL joined #scheme
2018-10-02T05:50:41Z r0b-DL quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2018-10-02T06:12:34Z bigfondue quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2018-10-02T06:12:56Z hugh_marera quit (Quit: hugh_marera)
2018-10-02T06:22:32Z quipa joined #scheme
2018-10-02T06:25:58Z JohnTalent joined #scheme
2018-10-02T06:26:14Z JohnTalent: Does chez need cygwin for redistribution?
2018-10-02T06:28:04Z epony quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2018-10-02T06:34:14Z bigfondue joined #scheme
2018-10-02T06:36:00Z gabbiel joined #scheme
2018-10-02T06:41:17Z gabbiel quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2018-10-02T07:00:42Z JohnTalent quit
2018-10-02T07:04:34Z erratic quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2018-10-02T07:10:02Z gabbiel joined #scheme
2018-10-02T07:10:38Z gabbiel: why is define-macro frowned upon?
2018-10-02T07:11:05Z gabbiel: its simpler
2018-10-02T07:11:37Z gabbiel: and hygine is partly solved with (gensym)
2018-10-02T07:24:11Z gabbiel quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2018-10-02T07:24:17Z erratic joined #scheme
2018-10-02T07:37:38Z dtornabene joined #scheme
2018-10-02T07:37:44Z toogs joined #scheme
2018-10-02T07:46:33Z greatscottttt joined #scheme
2018-10-02T07:48:56Z amz3 quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
2018-10-02T07:54:36Z mange quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2018-10-02T07:55:34Z robotoad quit (Quit: robotoad)
2018-10-02T08:04:53Z lambda-11235 quit (Quit: Bye)
2018-10-02T08:08:58Z belak8 joined #scheme
2018-10-02T08:13:23Z armo joined #scheme
2018-10-02T08:13:25Z armo: ello
2018-10-02T08:13:26Z belak8 quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2018-10-02T08:13:29Z armo: can anyone help with racket?
2018-10-02T08:14:03Z armo: when you have an argument between brackets like (define (my-function arg1 arg2 [arg3 arg3]) body) what does it mean?
2018-10-02T08:18:05Z saki joined #scheme
2018-10-02T08:18:27Z mrm: It means it's optional.
2018-10-02T08:20:05Z mrm: 2nd thing in the bracket is the default value.
2018-10-02T08:20:43Z civodul joined #scheme
2018-10-02T08:24:30Z saki quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2018-10-02T08:26:10Z siraben joined #scheme
2018-10-02T08:26:57Z InverseRhombus quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2018-10-02T08:44:15Z deuill joined #scheme
2018-10-02T08:48:27Z fedelibre joined #scheme
2018-10-02T08:53:42Z pie__ joined #scheme
2018-10-02T08:57:51Z pie_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2018-10-02T08:59:00Z klovett joined #scheme
2018-10-02T09:10:53Z RichardShadark quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2018-10-02T09:12:17Z InverseRhombus joined #scheme
2018-10-02T09:23:13Z asdfmanUa joined #scheme
2018-10-02T09:27:26Z asdfmanUa quit (K-Lined)
2018-10-02T09:34:52Z PantherRb joined #scheme
2018-10-02T09:39:18Z PantherRb quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2018-10-02T09:43:56Z toogs quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2018-10-02T10:12:12Z iskander quit (Quit: Quit)
2018-10-02T10:17:54Z iskander joined #scheme
2018-10-02T10:24:43Z nullcone quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity)
2018-10-02T10:27:15Z klovett quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2018-10-02T10:27:53Z klovett joined #scheme
2018-10-02T10:45:25Z marvin2 joined #scheme
2018-10-02T10:53:19Z Poster|zxl joined #scheme
2018-10-02T10:53:59Z Poster|zxl quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2018-10-02T10:59:25Z jcowan joined #scheme
2018-10-02T11:16:56Z lritter joined #scheme
2018-10-02T11:28:40Z ggole joined #scheme
2018-10-02T11:43:38Z maukeej joined #scheme
2018-10-02T11:43:40Z maukeej quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2018-10-02T11:47:09Z jao joined #scheme
2018-10-02T11:55:00Z jp quit (Quit: https://ptpb.pw/~docrivers.gif)
2018-10-02T11:55:53Z jcowan quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2018-10-02T11:56:08Z jcowan joined #scheme
2018-10-02T11:58:42Z civodul quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 26.1))
2018-10-02T12:03:12Z erkin quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2018-10-02T12:05:22Z cemerick joined #scheme
2018-10-02T12:25:53Z TheGreekOwl joined #scheme
2018-10-02T12:39:05Z cemerick_ joined #scheme
2018-10-02T12:42:06Z jp joined #scheme
2018-10-02T12:42:34Z cemerick quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2018-10-02T12:42:51Z RichardShadark joined #scheme
2018-10-02T12:42:52Z RichardShadark quit (Killed (Sigyn (Spam is off topic on freenode.)))
2018-10-02T12:52:33Z jim quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2018-10-02T12:56:34Z InverseRhombus quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2018-10-02T13:09:19Z cemerick_ is now known as cemerick
2018-10-02T13:19:04Z klovett quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2018-10-02T13:19:21Z klovett joined #scheme
2018-10-02T13:22:43Z jcowan quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)
2018-10-02T13:23:08Z jcowan joined #scheme
2018-10-02T13:23:44Z jcowan quit (Client Quit)
2018-10-02T13:27:00Z cemerick quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2018-10-02T13:28:45Z cemerick_ joined #scheme
2018-10-02T13:29:08Z cemerick_ is now known as cemerick
2018-10-02T13:33:09Z muelleme joined #scheme
2018-10-02T13:37:44Z muelleme quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2018-10-02T13:42:14Z klovett_ joined #scheme
2018-10-02T13:43:27Z nckx joined #scheme
2018-10-02T13:45:21Z klovett quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2018-10-02T13:47:45Z boegelxi joined #scheme
2018-10-02T13:53:55Z boegelxi quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2018-10-02T13:54:46Z pikluCr joined #scheme
2018-10-02T13:55:20Z pikluCr quit (Killed (Sigyn (Spam is off topic on freenode.)))
2018-10-02T14:07:35Z pierpal joined #scheme
2018-10-02T14:10:37Z dtornabene quit (Quit: Leaving)
2018-10-02T14:11:12Z jcowan joined #scheme
2018-10-02T14:11:32Z badkins joined #scheme
2018-10-02T14:12:49Z flerovite joined #scheme
2018-10-02T14:18:45Z daviid joined #scheme
2018-10-02T14:23:10Z TheGreekOwl quit (Quit: I must go, my planet needs me.)
2018-10-02T14:51:16Z Guest83876 joined #scheme
2018-10-02T14:55:04Z Guest83876 quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2018-10-02T14:57:14Z armo: how do I define a variable inside a for sum loop
2018-10-02T14:57:22Z armo: or in fact any type of for loop, I'm missing this functionality
2018-10-02T14:58:26Z Duns_Scrotus: ask #racket
2018-10-02T14:58:40Z DGASAU quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2018-10-02T14:59:10Z siraben quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2018-10-02T14:59:36Z siraben joined #scheme
2018-10-02T14:59:50Z DGASAU joined #scheme
2018-10-02T15:16:35Z InverseRhombus joined #scheme
2018-10-02T15:30:59Z robotoad joined #scheme
2018-10-02T15:35:16Z smazga joined #scheme
2018-10-02T15:41:31Z jao quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2018-10-02T16:04:14Z muelleme joined #scheme
2018-10-02T16:09:14Z muelleme quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2018-10-02T16:23:00Z daviid` joined #scheme
2018-10-02T16:24:56Z daviid quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2018-10-02T16:25:15Z fedelibre quit (Quit: fedelibre)
2018-10-02T16:26:10Z uncle-wanJF joined #scheme
2018-10-02T16:28:20Z uncle-wanJF quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2018-10-02T16:30:35Z jp quit (Quit: https://ptpb.pw/~docrivers.gif)
2018-10-02T16:31:38Z greatscottttt quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.9)
2018-10-02T16:35:31Z RichardShadark joined #scheme
2018-10-02T16:38:32Z pjb joined #scheme
2018-10-02T16:51:49Z erkin joined #scheme
2018-10-02T17:07:15Z ale_ joined #scheme
2018-10-02T17:07:58Z IstiCusi joined #scheme
2018-10-02T17:08:48Z rlangeVc joined #scheme
2018-10-02T17:12:40Z Zipheir joined #scheme
2018-10-02T17:15:11Z jao joined #scheme
2018-10-02T17:17:33Z rlangeVc quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2018-10-02T17:19:15Z RichardShadark quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2018-10-02T17:19:29Z RichardShadark joined #scheme
2018-10-02T17:22:42Z ggole quit (Quit: ggole)
2018-10-02T17:27:17Z IstiCusi quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.2)
2018-10-02T17:28:13Z TheGreekOwl joined #scheme
2018-10-02T17:31:42Z jp joined #scheme
2018-10-02T17:31:58Z ski joined #scheme
2018-10-02T17:33:29Z am0nrahxCR joined #scheme
2018-10-02T17:34:47Z am0nrahxCR quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2018-10-02T17:36:29Z nullcone joined #scheme
2018-10-02T17:36:36Z ski quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
2018-10-02T17:42:54Z muelleme joined #scheme
2018-10-02T17:44:29Z amz3 joined #scheme
2018-10-02T17:45:01Z smazga quit (Quit: Lost terminal)
2018-10-02T17:47:32Z jim joined #scheme
2018-10-02T17:54:39Z seequ joined #scheme
2018-10-02T17:57:49Z seequ quit (K-Lined)
2018-10-02T17:58:00Z klovett_ quit
2018-10-02T17:59:10Z edgar-rft joined #scheme
2018-10-02T18:03:38Z dankolbrshJ joined #scheme
2018-10-02T18:05:03Z P1RATEZ joined #scheme
2018-10-02T18:05:45Z hrubiun joined #scheme
2018-10-02T18:06:13Z dankolbrshJ quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2018-10-02T18:10:17Z alezost joined #scheme
2018-10-02T18:11:08Z hrubiun quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
2018-10-02T18:17:22Z taylan joined #scheme
2018-10-02T18:20:08Z Zenton quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2018-10-02T18:20:25Z Zenton joined #scheme
2018-10-02T18:32:00Z wasamasa: ecraven: I'm revisiting my forked repositories and was wondering, would you accept PRs for r7rs coverage for lesser known interpreters like foment and picrin?
2018-10-02T18:32:28Z wasamasa: ecraven: you have them in your r7rs-benchmarks repo already, so I figure it's worth a try
2018-10-02T18:40:53Z ale_ quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2018-10-02T18:40:53Z jcowan: I think ecraven's only limit was what he could get working on his box plus time to work on it
2018-10-02T18:41:31Z wasamasa: considering he got those two working before...
2018-10-02T18:43:39Z jcowan nods
2018-10-02T18:43:48Z pie__ quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2018-10-02T18:45:46Z hugh_marera joined #scheme
2018-10-02T18:49:59Z drewc quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
2018-10-02T18:54:40Z drewc joined #scheme
2018-10-02T19:05:52Z emar joined #scheme
2018-10-02T19:10:08Z klovett joined #scheme
2018-10-02T19:23:37Z pie__ joined #scheme
2018-10-02T19:29:11Z daviid` quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2018-10-02T19:35:55Z oem_ joined #scheme
2018-10-02T19:50:33Z oem_ quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2018-10-02T19:52:52Z Zipheir: After watching his talk (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PCzNwWmQdb0) and skimming the related paper, I'm wondering whether "Olin Loop" ever came to anything.
2018-10-02T19:55:13Z Zipheir: According to Shivers, it came to quite a bit (2800+ lines as of 13 years ago). But he seems never to have released it.
2018-10-02T20:06:17Z muelleme quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2018-10-02T20:10:35Z civodul joined #scheme
2018-10-02T20:11:30Z jcowan: Zipheir: Yes, I wish he had/would
2018-10-02T20:12:00Z jcowan: currently we have two loop packages, Riastradh's foof-loop (which is named after, but not by, Alex Shinn) and Alex Shinn's loop which is in Chibi.
2018-10-02T20:12:06Z jcowan: They have approx the same interface
2018-10-02T20:22:49Z jcowan: IIRC the user interface is the same, but the extension interface is not
2018-10-02T20:23:18Z edgar_ joined #scheme
2018-10-02T20:25:17Z edgar-rft quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2018-10-02T20:25:45Z ale_ joined #scheme
2018-10-02T20:30:03Z Zipheir: jcowan: Right, I've been reading up on both of them. The interfaces are a bit different. foof-loop has some more bells and whistles.
2018-10-02T20:30:18Z jcowan nods
2018-10-02T20:30:46Z parlakisikse joined #scheme
2018-10-02T20:30:48Z jcowan: And gongs, don't forget the gongs
2018-10-02T20:30:49Z Zipheir: loopy-loop also does implicit pattern-matching, which is nice.
2018-10-02T20:30:54Z Zipheir: Indeed :)
2018-10-02T20:31:03Z taylan quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2018-10-02T20:32:42Z erkin quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2018-10-02T20:33:51Z parlakisikse quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2018-10-02T20:36:55Z rain2: Zipheir: was never able to get code from him
2018-10-02T20:37:27Z rain2: I liked the paper and talk but >3000 lines of code doesn't seem appealing
2018-10-02T20:38:10Z rain2: I came up with my own loop thing, if you're interested
2018-10-02T20:38:54Z Slasher|wP joined #scheme
2018-10-02T20:39:32Z cwawak joined #scheme
2018-10-02T20:39:52Z cwawak quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2018-10-02T20:39:58Z Zipheir: rain2: I found an email thread late last night (which I didn't bookmark :-P) from 2017 where somebody said they had his code and had gotten it working in Racket.
2018-10-02T20:40:10Z rain2: wow, who was it?
2018-10-02T20:40:19Z Zipheir: I'm trying to find it...
2018-10-02T20:40:35Z rain2: Dionna Glaze
2018-10-02T20:40:44Z Zipheir: That sounds right.
2018-10-02T20:41:05Z rain2: "I don't have it anymore" oh well!
2018-10-02T20:41:47Z hugh_marera quit (Quit: hugh_marera)
2018-10-02T20:42:24Z rain2: It could be implemented from scratch by following the paper...
2018-10-02T20:42:49Z Zipheir: Tarballs of this macro are just going to materialize on obscure threads every 10 years, like some kind of syntactic Flying Dutchman.
2018-10-02T20:43:17Z rain2: haha
2018-10-02T20:43:25Z Zipheir: Yes, the paper covers a lot.
2018-10-02T20:43:36Z Slasher|wP quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2018-10-02T20:44:16Z Inline quit (Quit: Leaving)
2018-10-02T20:53:04Z hugh_marera joined #scheme
2018-10-02T21:02:52Z muelleme joined #scheme
2018-10-02T21:04:03Z wigust joined #scheme
2018-10-02T21:04:30Z lysanderOv joined #scheme
2018-10-02T21:04:53Z wigust- quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2018-10-02T21:06:54Z lysanderOv quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2018-10-02T21:10:03Z civodul quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 26.1))
2018-10-02T21:14:18Z muelleme quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2018-10-02T21:14:19Z daishan joined #scheme
2018-10-02T21:16:46Z Zipheir: Man, GIMP's Script-Fu is one brain-damaged embedded Scheme.
2018-10-02T21:17:03Z armo quit (Quit: Page closed)
2018-10-02T21:17:45Z wasamasa: isn't it tinyscheme?
2018-10-02T21:18:07Z Zipheir: It is. Which is good. The interface is what is bad.
2018-10-02T21:19:40Z Zipheir: They don't use Scheme booleans and everything returned by gimp is wrapped. So instead of (if (gimp-boolean-thing) ...) you have to write (if (eq? TRUE (car (gimp-boolean-thing))) ...)
2018-10-02T21:19:44Z Zipheir: Ugh.
2018-10-02T21:20:13Z qu1j0t3: wow
2018-10-02T21:20:58Z daishan quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2018-10-02T21:21:05Z wasamasa: just add another layer of wrapping that restores sanity
2018-10-02T21:21:31Z Zipheir: Indeed.
2018-10-02T21:28:27Z alezost quit (Quit: I live in GuixSD <http://www.gnu.org/s/guix> and Emacs <http://www.gnu.org/s/emacs>)
2018-10-02T21:33:25Z RichardShadark quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2018-10-02T21:39:49Z hugh_marera quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2018-10-02T21:40:58Z hugh_marera joined #scheme
2018-10-02T21:56:02Z hugh_marera quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2018-10-02T22:05:06Z klovett quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2018-10-02T22:08:04Z jcowan quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)
2018-10-02T22:09:09Z gwatt: I thought GIMP used guile as an extension language?
2018-10-02T22:09:29Z lritter quit (Quit: Leaving)
2018-10-02T22:10:19Z jcowan joined #scheme
2018-10-02T22:49:48Z klovett joined #scheme
2018-10-02T22:53:44Z klovett quit (Client Quit)
2018-10-02T22:54:15Z jcob joined #scheme
2018-10-02T22:56:18Z jcob quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2018-10-02T22:57:38Z robotoad quit (Quit: robotoad)
2018-10-02T23:01:48Z jcob joined #scheme
2018-10-02T23:08:40Z daviid joined #scheme
2018-10-02T23:09:05Z daviid is now known as Guest71064
2018-10-02T23:09:23Z Guest71064 is now known as daviid
2018-10-02T23:13:19Z InverseRhombus quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2018-10-02T23:14:07Z Zenton quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2018-10-02T23:14:23Z Zenton joined #scheme
2018-10-02T23:14:57Z jcob quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2018-10-02T23:16:23Z jcowan quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)
2018-10-02T23:16:45Z edgar_ quit (Quit: Leaving)
2018-10-02T23:17:22Z pie__ quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2018-10-02T23:17:58Z edgar-rft joined #scheme
2018-10-02T23:20:51Z vegiixV joined #scheme
2018-10-02T23:21:51Z vegiixV quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2018-10-02T23:31:16Z r1b joined #scheme
2018-10-02T23:36:04Z siraben quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2018-10-02T23:36:22Z Zipheir: gwatt: Yeah, Guile would be better. It seems that most people are using Python for GIMP programming these days. Figures.
2018-10-02T23:39:49Z gwatt: I thought GUILE was Gnu Ubiquitous Intelligent Language for Extensions
2018-10-02T23:41:56Z gwatt: which is one hell of a tortured backronym, considering the guile <=> scheme relation just as English words
2018-10-02T23:42:15Z Zipheir: gwatt: I thought you were kidding with 'intelligent', then I looked it up. :)
2018-10-02T23:45:35Z Zipheir: Every GNU project must have some we-are-so-very-very clever acronym, I guess.
2018-10-02T23:47:06Z robotoad joined #scheme
2018-10-02T23:49:13Z gwatt: My favorite is still the GNU, GIMP, and GTK trifecta: GNU = GNU is Not Unix, GIMP = GNU Image Manipulation Program, and GTK = GIMP Tool Kit
2018-10-02T23:49:49Z gwatt: All together, the Gnu is Not Unix Image Manipulation Program Tool Kit
2018-10-02T23:50:27Z aeth: No
2018-10-02T23:51:13Z aeth: It's the "GNU is Not Unix Image Manipulation Program Tool Kit" and if you want to expand that, "GNU is Not Unix is Not Unix Image Manipulation Program Tool Kit" and if you want to expand that...
2018-10-02T23:52:13Z gwatt: What you're  referring to as GNU is in fact GNU is Not Unix, which is fact .....
2018-10-02T23:53:11Z aeth: A proper Scheme acronym should be tail recursive, e.g. "Not Unix, NUN". That can be optimized.
2018-10-02T23:54:12Z daviid: for info, the guile reference manual (available online) has a 'History' section, which is nicely written and pleasant to read ... then you'll learn that in the (very) early days, it was called GEL (the GNU Extension Language)
2018-10-02T23:55:51Z Zenton quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
2018-10-02T23:58:48Z Zenton joined #scheme
2018-10-03T00:01:13Z Zipheir: Hofstader's Law is the only tail-recursive epigram that comes to mind...
2018-10-03T00:04:28Z aeth: The problem with "Not Unix, NUN" as an alternative to "GNU" is that it's still an infinite loop. You need a termination condition when iterating with tail recursion, even if you're just avoiding an infinite loop instead of avoiding a stack overflow
2018-10-03T00:04:51Z aeth: What's the best way to incorporate a conditional into an acronym?
2018-10-03T00:09:24Z aeth: I guess r7rs is an acronym that eventually terminates
2018-10-03T00:11:11Z thinkpad` joined #scheme
2018-10-03T00:15:04Z gwatt: "I'm so meta, even this acronym"
2018-10-03T00:17:58Z ozzloy joined #scheme
2018-10-03T00:17:58Z ozzloy quit (Changing host)
2018-10-03T00:17:58Z ozzloy joined #scheme
2018-10-03T00:25:30Z vacumHR joined #scheme
2018-10-03T00:25:36Z nullcone quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity)
2018-10-03T00:26:56Z klovett joined #scheme
2018-10-03T00:28:54Z sethalves quit (Quit: Leaving.)
2018-10-03T00:29:55Z vacumHR quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2018-10-03T00:43:10Z jcob joined #scheme
2018-10-03T00:51:36Z P1RATEZ quit
2018-10-03T00:59:59Z tautologico joined #scheme
2018-10-03T01:00:03Z pierpal quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2018-10-03T01:00:10Z Zipheir: "Hofstader's Law: It always takes longer than you think, even when you take into account Hofstader's Law."
2018-10-03T01:00:19Z Zipheir: it's even labelled :-)
2018-10-03T01:04:06Z jcowan joined #scheme
2018-10-03T01:27:47Z thinkpad` quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2018-10-03T01:38:30Z khisanth_ quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2018-10-03T01:39:45Z jcowan quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)
2018-10-03T01:43:33Z jcowan joined #scheme
2018-10-03T01:52:04Z khisanth_ joined #scheme
2018-10-03T01:58:47Z robotoad quit (Quit: robotoad)
2018-10-03T01:59:29Z lambda-11235 joined #scheme
2018-10-03T02:04:44Z ale_ quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
2018-10-03T02:06:32Z mpolpN joined #scheme
2018-10-03T02:09:08Z mpolpN quit (Killed (Sigyn (Spam is off topic on freenode.)))
2018-10-03T02:12:50Z robotoad joined #scheme
2018-10-03T02:22:45Z queelius joined #scheme
2018-10-03T02:23:35Z Riastradh joined #scheme
2018-10-03T02:29:03Z Riastradh quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2018-10-03T02:39:32Z jao quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2018-10-03T02:48:20Z daviid quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2018-10-03T03:07:58Z jcob quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2018-10-03T03:11:46Z jcowan quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)
2018-10-03T03:13:28Z pierpal joined #scheme
2018-10-03T03:17:05Z AsterlN joined #scheme
2018-10-03T03:21:05Z pierpal quit (Quit: Poof)
2018-10-03T03:21:21Z pierpal joined #scheme
2018-10-03T03:23:36Z AsterlN quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2018-10-03T03:36:31Z rossyvB joined #scheme
2018-10-03T03:39:37Z rossyvB quit (Killed (Sigyn (Spam is off topic on freenode.)))
2018-10-03T03:54:53Z jcowan joined #scheme
2018-10-03T04:03:27Z jcowan quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)
2018-10-03T04:08:11Z cemerick quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity)
2018-10-03T04:18:21Z nullcone joined #scheme
2018-10-03T04:52:27Z robotoad quit (Quit: robotoad)
2018-10-03T05:06:35Z robotoad joined #scheme
2018-10-03T05:12:56Z TheGreekOwl quit (Quit: I must go, my planet needs me.)
2018-10-03T05:17:43Z quipa_ joined #scheme
2018-10-03T05:20:54Z quipa quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2018-10-03T05:25:16Z muelleme joined #scheme
2018-10-03T05:30:02Z muelleme quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2018-10-03T05:32:06Z Guest92073 joined #scheme
2018-10-03T05:38:46Z Guest92073 quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2018-10-03T05:44:12Z ecraven: wasamasa: I'll definitely add everything that is even remotely r7rs
2018-10-03T05:44:32Z ecraven: to run them, there need to be arch linux packages for x86_64 for me
2018-10-03T05:45:07Z ecraven: if you find a Scheme implementation that doesn't have an arch linux package already, either write it or tell me, I'll try to make one myself if none exists
2018-10-03T05:55:21Z pjb quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2018-10-03T06:20:09Z robotoad quit (Quit: robotoad)
2018-10-03T06:24:27Z amz3 quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.9.1)
2018-10-03T06:42:21Z lambda-11235 quit (Quit: Bye)
2018-10-03T07:11:42Z davl_ joined #scheme
2018-10-03T07:13:53Z Blkt_ joined #scheme
2018-10-03T07:14:30Z tessier_ joined #scheme
2018-10-03T07:18:41Z drewc_ joined #scheme
2018-10-03T07:19:29Z drewc quit (*.net *.split)
2018-10-03T07:19:30Z rotty quit (*.net *.split)
2018-10-03T07:19:30Z groovy2shoes quit (*.net *.split)
2018-10-03T07:19:30Z stux16777216Away quit (*.net *.split)
2018-10-03T07:19:30Z ivanshmakov quit (*.net *.split)
2018-10-03T07:19:30Z GGMethos quit (*.net *.split)
2018-10-03T07:19:30Z ecraven quit (*.net *.split)
2018-10-03T07:19:30Z davl quit (*.net *.split)
2018-10-03T07:19:30Z kwmiebach quit (*.net *.split)
2018-10-03T07:19:30Z tessier quit (*.net *.split)
2018-10-03T07:19:30Z Blkt quit (*.net *.split)
2018-10-03T07:19:30Z gko quit (*.net *.split)
2018-10-03T07:19:30Z exit70 quit (*.net *.split)
2018-10-03T07:19:30Z GreaseMonkey quit (*.net *.split)
2018-10-03T07:19:30Z weltung quit (*.net *.split)
2018-10-03T07:19:30Z zooey quit (*.net *.split)
2018-10-03T07:19:36Z davl_ is now known as davl
2018-10-03T07:22:53Z civodul joined #scheme
2018-10-03T07:32:46Z rotty joined #scheme
2018-10-03T07:32:46Z groovy2shoes joined #scheme
2018-10-03T07:32:46Z stux16777216Away joined #scheme
2018-10-03T07:32:46Z ivanshmakov joined #scheme
2018-10-03T07:32:46Z GGMethos joined #scheme
2018-10-03T07:32:46Z ecraven joined #scheme
2018-10-03T07:32:46Z kwmiebach joined #scheme
2018-10-03T07:32:46Z gko joined #scheme
2018-10-03T07:32:46Z exit70 joined #scheme
2018-10-03T07:32:46Z GreaseMonkey joined #scheme
2018-10-03T07:32:46Z weltung joined #scheme
2018-10-03T07:36:00Z drewc_ quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2018-10-03T07:39:08Z drewc joined #scheme
2018-10-03T07:51:53Z ggole joined #scheme
2018-10-03T07:52:09Z quipa_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2018-10-03T08:04:07Z saki joined #scheme
2018-10-03T08:04:17Z saki quit (Excess Flood)
2018-10-03T08:06:34Z saki joined #scheme
2018-10-03T08:06:38Z saki quit (Excess Flood)
2018-10-03T08:10:41Z Guest12588 joined #scheme
2018-10-03T08:11:51Z muelleme joined #scheme
2018-10-03T08:13:35Z pierpal quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2018-10-03T08:13:55Z ggole quit (*.net *.split)
2018-10-03T08:13:55Z rotty quit (*.net *.split)
2018-10-03T08:13:55Z groovy2shoes quit (*.net *.split)
2018-10-03T08:13:56Z stux16777216Away quit (*.net *.split)
2018-10-03T08:13:56Z ivanshmakov quit (*.net *.split)
2018-10-03T08:13:56Z GGMethos quit (*.net *.split)
2018-10-03T08:13:56Z ecraven quit (*.net *.split)
2018-10-03T08:13:56Z kwmiebach quit (*.net *.split)
2018-10-03T08:13:56Z gko quit (*.net *.split)
2018-10-03T08:13:56Z exit70 quit (*.net *.split)
2018-10-03T08:13:56Z GreaseMonkey quit (*.net *.split)
2018-10-03T08:13:56Z weltung quit (*.net *.split)
2018-10-03T08:15:52Z saki joined #scheme
2018-10-03T08:15:56Z saki quit (Excess Flood)
2018-10-03T08:17:32Z Guest12588 quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2018-10-03T08:27:18Z exit70 joined #scheme
2018-10-03T08:27:18Z ggole joined #scheme
2018-10-03T08:27:18Z rotty joined #scheme
2018-10-03T08:27:18Z groovy2shoes joined #scheme
2018-10-03T08:27:18Z stux16777216Away joined #scheme
2018-10-03T08:27:18Z ivanshmakov joined #scheme
2018-10-03T08:27:18Z GGMethos joined #scheme
2018-10-03T08:27:18Z ecraven joined #scheme
2018-10-03T08:27:18Z kwmiebach joined #scheme
2018-10-03T08:27:18Z gko joined #scheme
2018-10-03T08:27:18Z GreaseMonkey joined #scheme
2018-10-03T08:27:18Z weltung joined #scheme
2018-10-03T08:27:22Z exit70 quit (Changing host)
2018-10-03T08:27:22Z exit70 joined #scheme
2018-10-03T08:28:31Z quipa joined #scheme
2018-10-03T08:32:11Z saki joined #scheme
2018-10-03T08:35:49Z mybitbot joined #scheme
2018-10-03T08:37:20Z muelleme quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2018-10-03T08:42:38Z kjak quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2018-10-03T08:42:52Z mybitbot quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2018-10-03T08:43:52Z chiyosaki joined #scheme
2018-10-03T08:43:56Z kjak joined #scheme
2018-10-03T08:46:11Z deadcycloWA joined #scheme
2018-10-03T08:51:29Z saki quit (*.net *.split)
2018-10-03T08:51:29Z exit70 quit (*.net *.split)
2018-10-03T08:51:29Z ggole quit (*.net *.split)
2018-10-03T08:51:30Z rotty quit (*.net *.split)
2018-10-03T08:51:30Z groovy2shoes quit (*.net *.split)
2018-10-03T08:51:30Z stux16777216Away quit (*.net *.split)
2018-10-03T08:51:30Z ivanshmakov quit (*.net *.split)
2018-10-03T08:51:30Z GGMethos quit (*.net *.split)
2018-10-03T08:51:30Z ecraven quit (*.net *.split)
2018-10-03T08:51:30Z kwmiebach quit (*.net *.split)
2018-10-03T08:51:30Z gko quit (*.net *.split)
2018-10-03T08:51:30Z GreaseMonkey quit (*.net *.split)
2018-10-03T08:51:30Z weltung quit (*.net *.split)
2018-10-03T08:53:17Z deadcycloWA quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2018-10-03T08:59:33Z Guest65712 joined #scheme
2018-10-03T09:00:43Z Guest65712 quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2018-10-03T09:01:55Z marvin3 joined #scheme
2018-10-03T09:05:07Z marvin2 quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2018-10-03T09:05:09Z exit70 joined #scheme
2018-10-03T09:05:09Z ggole joined #scheme
2018-10-03T09:05:09Z rotty joined #scheme
2018-10-03T09:05:09Z groovy2shoes joined #scheme
2018-10-03T09:05:09Z stux16777216Away joined #scheme
2018-10-03T09:05:09Z ivanshmakov joined #scheme
2018-10-03T09:05:09Z GGMethos joined #scheme
2018-10-03T09:05:09Z ecraven joined #scheme
2018-10-03T09:05:09Z kwmiebach joined #scheme
2018-10-03T09:05:09Z gko joined #scheme
2018-10-03T09:05:09Z GreaseMonkey joined #scheme
2018-10-03T09:05:09Z weltung joined #scheme
2018-10-03T09:07:06Z pierpal joined #scheme
2018-10-03T09:13:38Z pierpal quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2018-10-03T09:21:46Z taylan joined #scheme
2018-10-03T09:38:23Z lavaflow quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2018-10-03T09:38:46Z opmpn joined #scheme
2018-10-03T09:41:44Z wasamasa: ecraven: cool, picrin was the only one I had an issue with, foment is fine
2018-10-03T09:43:06Z opmpn quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2018-10-03T09:50:45Z RichardShadark joined #scheme
2018-10-03T09:52:38Z akkad is now known as Ober
2018-10-03T09:53:44Z klovett quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2018-10-03T09:54:23Z klovett joined #scheme
2018-10-03T09:56:42Z joernPC joined #scheme
2018-10-03T09:58:29Z quipa_ joined #scheme
2018-10-03T09:59:12Z quipa_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2018-10-03T10:00:55Z quipa quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
2018-10-03T10:03:10Z joernPC quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2018-10-03T10:07:18Z muelleme joined #scheme
2018-10-03T10:28:33Z chiyosaki quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
2018-10-03T10:30:34Z ale_ joined #scheme
2018-10-03T10:34:31Z lavaflow joined #scheme
2018-10-03T10:41:05Z jcowan joined #scheme
2018-10-03T10:45:58Z vyrus001uE joined #scheme
2018-10-03T10:46:10Z vyrus001uE quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2018-10-03T10:47:46Z nullcone quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity)
2018-10-03T10:51:57Z sw1mON joined #scheme
2018-10-03T10:55:41Z muelleme quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
2018-10-03T10:59:14Z sw1mON quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2018-10-03T10:59:32Z dmiles quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2018-10-03T11:07:17Z GeekDudepQ joined #scheme
2018-10-03T11:07:23Z dmiles joined #scheme
2018-10-03T11:11:32Z GeekDudepQ quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2018-10-03T11:13:06Z saki joined #scheme
2018-10-03T11:14:43Z jao joined #scheme
2018-10-03T11:32:54Z quipa joined #scheme
2018-10-03T11:35:25Z pierpal joined #scheme
2018-10-03T11:43:19Z civodul quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 26.1))
2018-10-03T11:48:53Z mgoldmann|away joined #scheme
2018-10-03T11:52:34Z mgoldmann|away quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2018-10-03T11:57:59Z drot quit (Quit: Quit.)
2018-10-03T11:59:58Z drot joined #scheme
2018-10-03T12:06:45Z drot quit (Quit: Quit.)
2018-10-03T12:11:06Z drot joined #scheme
2018-10-03T12:11:35Z Tiedemannrz joined #scheme
2018-10-03T12:14:41Z Tiedemannrz quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2018-10-03T12:17:08Z ale_ quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2018-10-03T12:31:05Z marvin3 quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2018-10-03T12:45:39Z lritter joined #scheme
2018-10-03T12:48:28Z pierpal quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2018-10-03T12:53:20Z jao quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2018-10-03T13:05:27Z amerigo joined #scheme
2018-10-03T13:07:04Z lritter quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2018-10-03T13:09:49Z ski joined #scheme
2018-10-03T13:18:07Z saki quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2018-10-03T13:18:59Z amerigo: philosophical question: how do you see the future of scheme and how do you see it now? for me learning it was an enlightenment to the point where any other language looks ugly to me. But i'm also feeling more and more how abstract and hermetic scheme is. Even in the things it should excel in, like web or AI programming it's virtually nonexistent (I mean I know that the scheme ideas are almost everywhere now, but i'm
2018-10-03T13:18:59Z amerigo:  talking about scheme in itself). Often it is frowned upons as a toy, academic language, but in this domain I have feeling it's also superseeded by haskell and other things. What is your take on all this?
2018-10-03T13:19:59Z Duns_Scrotus: Scheme is about as inconvenient as a garbage collected language can be
2018-10-03T13:20:17Z wasamasa: amerigo: why do you think it should excel in "web or AI programming"
2018-10-03T13:21:30Z InverseRhombus joined #scheme
2018-10-03T13:21:31Z wasamasa: amerigo: I'm curious how you arrived at that conclusion
2018-10-03T13:21:59Z amerigo: just a loose idea because of the similarity of sexp model with html/xml or all the ai research in lisp
2018-10-03T13:22:11Z wasamasa: lol
2018-10-03T13:22:24Z wasamasa: web programming is a big complicated mess
2018-10-03T13:22:38Z Duns_Scrotus: All the ai research in lisp is from the 80s and shit
2018-10-03T13:22:39Z wasamasa: if you think it's all about turning s-expressions into html/xml, well, good luck
2018-10-03T13:22:46Z wasamasa: you won't get far
2018-10-03T13:23:29Z wasamasa: the reason why lisp (not scheme) was considered big for AI was because it had all those high-level features like recursion and symbols
2018-10-03T13:23:54Z wasamasa: with symbols they thought they'd finally solved the problem of how one would represent a knowledge database for an expert system
2018-10-03T13:24:25Z rain2: the niche that scheme filled is getting smaller and smaller as we seen mainstream languages slowly adopt pieces from it.
2018-10-03T13:24:28Z wasamasa: unfortunately they weren't right, the representation doesn't matter much and these days AI is about crunching lots of numbers on your GPU
2018-10-03T13:25:10Z wasamasa: if I need a reminder of what scheme is designed to do, I don't need to look further than the opening lines of the r5rs standard
2018-10-03T13:25:53Z erratic quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
2018-10-03T13:26:20Z rain2: the language is thriving pretty well because of projects like guile, guix, racket, chicken
2018-10-03T13:26:52Z saki joined #scheme
2018-10-03T13:27:12Z faction joined #scheme
2018-10-03T13:27:39Z wasamasa: in a future where computing keeps getting more and more complicated, a language designed to be remarkably simple is nice when you're getting tired from that shit show
2018-10-03T13:28:35Z lritter joined #scheme
2018-10-03T13:29:15Z wasamasa: oh and there are more languages like scheme
2018-10-03T13:29:24Z amerigo: wasamasa: ok, forget about ai and web. So scheme for you is kind of mental exercise in clarity?
2018-10-03T13:29:48Z wasamasa: pretty much
2018-10-03T13:30:13Z wasamasa: bonus if I can make useful programs with it
2018-10-03T13:32:55Z faction quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2018-10-03T13:38:32Z muelleme joined #scheme
2018-10-03T13:39:46Z buboyI joined #scheme
2018-10-03T13:40:44Z buboyI quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2018-10-03T13:48:00Z klovett quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2018-10-03T13:48:22Z klovett joined #scheme
2018-10-03T13:50:13Z smazga joined #scheme
2018-10-03T13:58:16Z hjfue joined #scheme
2018-10-03T13:59:06Z hjfue quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2018-10-03T14:01:17Z amerigo: so maybe scheme is a best didactic language?
2018-10-03T14:01:30Z wasamasa: I wouldn't say that
2018-10-03T14:01:46Z wasamasa: you can be an enthusiast about it without any learning aspect involved
2018-10-03T14:03:40Z tomasmu quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2018-10-03T14:03:40Z tomasmu joined #scheme
2018-10-03T14:04:34Z amerigo: there are these words of Steele from seasoned schemer that in fortrat you can speak of numbers, in c of characters and in lisp you can speak of lisp
2018-10-03T14:05:02Z amerigo: i find it very cool
2018-10-03T14:05:37Z amerigo: but at the same time there are people who believe scheme is going to be the next big thing
2018-10-03T14:05:51Z amerigo: language of the future and what not
2018-10-03T14:06:04Z qu1j0t3: you can find people who believe that of anything
2018-10-03T14:06:40Z qu1j0t3: recommended course is to be like wasamasa, try it out and see what it is
2018-10-03T14:06:55Z qu1j0t3: then do that for other things
2018-10-03T14:07:18Z qu1j0t3: pursuing a single tool in isolation is, errmmm how would one say it
2018-10-03T14:10:37Z amerigo: i guess you are right
2018-10-03T14:13:24Z wasamasa: I sometimes get the question what it is that makes me use lisp from a certain person who keeps attending my talks
2018-10-03T14:13:36Z qu1j0t3: a real life gavino!
2018-10-03T14:14:18Z wasamasa: yeah, once I even pointed out to them that we've run into each other before, at which point they pretend that cannot be the case
2018-10-03T14:14:51Z wasamasa: anyway, my answer to that is that it's a nice family of languages with simple syntax that allow me to explore the problem space with a minimum amount of annoyance
2018-10-03T14:15:11Z wasamasa: and each member of that family evolved to have certain strengths
2018-10-03T14:16:48Z wasamasa: which is why my talks aren't about a single lisp language, but many more than that (elisp, MAL, scheme)
2018-10-03T14:18:10Z jcowan: Good idea.  In the Lambda Order they are all first-class languages.
2018-10-03T14:18:56Z wasamasa: also, interim's lisp, but I hardly talked about it and more about the OS
2018-10-03T14:19:44Z jcowan: https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/guile-devel/2010-12/msg00032.html
2018-10-03T14:19:57Z jcowan: amerigo: that should give you some idea of the virtues of Scheme
2018-10-03T14:25:36Z jcowan quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)
2018-10-03T14:25:50Z wasamasa: "exploring the problem space" means that I dig into a problem and deliberately avoid the easy shortcut of just finding a suitable library and wiring it up with another one
2018-10-03T14:26:00Z wasamasa: if this is what you want, python is good for that
2018-10-03T14:26:40Z CoconutCrab joined #scheme
2018-10-03T14:29:19Z amerigo: i can agree with that. I was reading machine learning book all the examples were in python/numpy but only after I implemented it in scheme i really got it
2018-10-03T14:32:45Z queelius quit (Quit: Leaving)
2018-10-03T14:43:05Z daviid joined #scheme
2018-10-03T14:52:02Z TheSphinX^VQ joined #scheme
2018-10-03T14:53:50Z TheSphinX^VQ quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2018-10-03T15:04:54Z jcowan joined #scheme
2018-10-03T15:13:12Z Zipheir: The funny thing (very generally speaking) is how many popular languages are used for things they aren't good for. It's almost like languages get popular because of hype and convenience, not quality of design.
2018-10-03T15:15:56Z Zipheir: "With sufficient thrust, pigs fly just fine." --RFC 1925
2018-10-03T15:16:13Z Zipheir: With insufficient thrust, the best airplanes remain grounded.
2018-10-03T15:21:30Z Zipheir: Well, a good plane would have thrust built-in. Bad analogy extension, sorry.
2018-10-03T15:23:43Z saki quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2018-10-03T15:26:22Z saki joined #scheme
2018-10-03T15:28:25Z robotoad joined #scheme
2018-10-03T15:35:13Z jao joined #scheme
2018-10-03T15:36:40Z nullcone joined #scheme
2018-10-03T15:39:06Z amerigo quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2018-10-03T15:46:32Z quipa_ joined #scheme
2018-10-03T15:48:15Z quipa quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2018-10-03T15:54:09Z CoconutCrab quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
2018-10-03T16:00:29Z CoconutCrab joined #scheme
2018-10-03T16:07:46Z cemerick joined #scheme
2018-10-03T16:08:37Z erratic joined #scheme
2018-10-03T16:16:51Z muelleme quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2018-10-03T16:21:44Z erkin joined #scheme
2018-10-03T16:26:27Z ggole quit (Quit: ggole)
2018-10-03T16:28:41Z saki quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2018-10-03T16:31:20Z klovett quit
2018-10-03T16:31:48Z badkins quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2018-10-03T16:40:39Z jcowan: Zipheir: Well, but the plane might not have enough thrust built in.  See the Spruce Goose, which was too heavy (it was made of wood) to stay airborne
2018-10-03T16:43:14Z jcowan: (it survived for 26 seconds before making a forced landing, but it was so low that that was probably ground effect)
2018-10-03T16:43:54Z dieggsy quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2018-10-03T16:44:27Z sethalves joined #scheme
2018-10-03T17:00:55Z gwatt: jcowan: But does the spruce goose qualify as one of "the best airplanes" ?
2018-10-03T17:02:21Z erkin quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2018-10-03T17:12:52Z muelleme joined #scheme
2018-10-03T17:18:39Z RichardShadark quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2018-10-03T17:19:10Z erkin joined #scheme
2018-10-03T17:19:12Z muelleme quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2018-10-03T17:19:24Z RichardShadark joined #scheme
2018-10-03T17:22:19Z yumh quit (Quit: ZNC - https://znc.in)
2018-10-03T17:27:41Z klovett joined #scheme
2018-10-03T17:33:21Z aeth: gwatt: if programming languages were airplanes...
2018-10-03T17:49:33Z erkin quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2018-10-03T17:56:00Z nullcone quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity)
2018-10-03T17:58:57Z jcowan quit (Quit: Leaving)
2018-10-03T17:59:29Z Labu joined #scheme
2018-10-03T18:00:03Z maximjaffe joined #scheme
2018-10-03T18:01:19Z yumh joined #scheme
2018-10-03T18:02:16Z quipa_ quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2018-10-03T18:12:06Z ale_ joined #scheme
2018-10-03T18:14:43Z jcowan joined #scheme
2018-10-03T18:15:59Z jcowan: https://www.greghendershott.com/2018/10/racket-mode.html , which explains the internals of racket-mode, is really awesomesauce.
2018-10-03T18:17:29Z jcowan: gwatt: Well, a lot of aircraft designers admired it greatly
2018-10-03T18:29:23Z erkin joined #scheme
2018-10-03T18:29:46Z nullcone joined #scheme
2018-10-03T18:35:24Z gwatt: I admire this: http://users.monash.edu/~damian/papers/HTML/Perligata.html but I don't think it's good
2018-10-03T18:35:52Z Zenton quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2018-10-03T18:36:09Z Zenton joined #scheme
2018-10-03T18:36:44Z wasamasa: interesting, didn't know ruby stole its statement modifiers from perl
2018-10-03T18:37:17Z badkins joined #scheme
2018-10-03T18:38:32Z badkins_ joined #scheme
2018-10-03T18:40:23Z qu1j0t3: matz loved perl and nicked a few things
2018-10-03T18:40:28Z qu1j0t3: nobody's perfect i guess
2018-10-03T18:40:36Z wasamasa: I knew that, just not how much
2018-10-03T18:40:39Z qu1j0t3: ah
2018-10-03T18:40:44Z wasamasa: I only recognized the elisp bits he stole
2018-10-03T18:41:09Z Zenton quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2018-10-03T18:41:37Z Zenton joined #scheme
2018-10-03T18:42:15Z badkins quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2018-10-03T18:42:36Z dieggsy joined #scheme
2018-10-03T18:45:16Z muelleme joined #scheme
2018-10-03T18:47:51Z robotoad quit (Quit: robotoad)
2018-10-03T18:48:45Z pjb joined #scheme
2018-10-03T18:50:18Z muelleme quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2018-10-03T18:52:32Z RichardShadark quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2018-10-03T18:52:42Z alezost joined #scheme
2018-10-03T18:56:06Z jcowan: Perl in term stole statement modifiers from DEC Basic-Plus
2018-10-03T18:56:38Z wasamasa: fascinating
2018-10-03T18:56:38Z emar quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.2)
2018-10-03T18:57:18Z wasamasa: I wonder where the assembly dialect in shenzhen i/o stole the idea of marking if/else branches with a +/- for the first character
2018-10-03T18:57:24Z emar joined #scheme
2018-10-03T18:57:39Z TheGreekOwl joined #scheme
2018-10-03T18:57:59Z wasamasa: it's kind of like arm assembly, but more elegant
2018-10-03T18:59:38Z hugh_marera joined #scheme
2018-10-03T19:02:21Z amz3 joined #scheme
2018-10-03T19:03:56Z gwatt: only arm32. arm64 dropped the general purpose statement modifiers
2018-10-03T19:04:05Z wasamasa: :<
2018-10-03T19:04:15Z gwatt: Yeah, made me sad
2018-10-03T19:04:34Z ngz joined #scheme
2018-10-03T19:09:43Z muelleme joined #scheme
2018-10-03T19:35:41Z jao quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2018-10-03T19:35:41Z acarrico quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2018-10-03T19:38:16Z X-Scale quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
2018-10-03T19:39:35Z civodul joined #scheme
2018-10-03T19:39:48Z jao joined #scheme
2018-10-03T19:40:05Z RichardShadark joined #scheme
2018-10-03T19:40:28Z ale_ quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
2018-10-03T19:40:53Z lavaflow quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2018-10-03T19:40:53Z RichardShadark: Hello. Is it correct to use apply with continuation?
2018-10-03T19:41:11Z RichardShadark: I know it works on chez scheme, but not sure for other implementations.
2018-10-03T19:41:45Z gwatt: RichardShadark: Probably going to need a bit more context for the question.
2018-10-03T19:43:27Z RichardShadark: For instance
2018-10-03T19:44:22Z RichardShadark: (lambda args (apply (call/cc (lambda (x) x)) args))
2018-10-03T19:44:34Z RichardShadark: Is it correct on any scheme implementation?
2018-10-03T19:45:00Z gwatt: It should be
2018-10-03T19:45:12Z X-Scale joined #scheme
2018-10-03T19:46:14Z RichardShadark: And why the hell mit-scheme says call/cc is undefined?
2018-10-03T19:46:29Z ecraven: call-with-current-continuation
2018-10-03T19:46:34Z gwatt: Probably need to spell out the full name: call-with-current-continuation
2018-10-03T19:47:02Z RichardShadark: Yeah, docs says it has call/cc defined with the full name
2018-10-03T19:47:16Z RichardShadark: But why they don't have shortcut? That's strange to me..
2018-10-03T19:47:26Z lavaflow joined #scheme
2018-10-03T19:49:04Z RichardShadark: Anyway
2018-10-03T19:49:28Z RichardShadark: Is (lambda args (apply (call/cc (lambda (x) x)) args)) equivalent to values?
2018-10-03T19:49:33Z RichardShadark: I suppose it should be
2018-10-03T19:49:48Z gwatt: I don't think it is
2018-10-03T19:50:28Z RichardShadark: gwatt: what's wrong..?
2018-10-03T19:51:19Z Zipheir: In general, continuations take one argument.
2018-10-03T19:52:09Z gwatt: RichardShadark: So you have your continuation "x", which you apply to "args", but by applying the continuation you jump *back* to the point where the continuation was created.
2018-10-03T19:53:24Z RichardShadark: So it becomes `(,@args args)
2018-10-03T19:53:33Z RichardShadark: Now I see
2018-10-03T19:53:56Z rain2: couldn't continuations take multiple arguments if they're expecting multiple return values?
2018-10-03T19:54:06Z gwatt: and you return multiple values to a single-value context
2018-10-03T19:54:16Z RichardShadark: I am not sure
2018-10-03T19:54:49Z RichardShadark: But I think I saw that in TSPL it's said continuation can get any number of arga
2018-10-03T19:54:55Z RichardShadark: args*
2018-10-03T19:54:59Z gwatt: rain2: what happened to rain1? but also yes.
2018-10-03T19:55:12Z RichardShadark: And I did sorta implementation of values, but I don't remember how
2018-10-03T19:56:34Z gwatt: RichardShadark: probably (lambda args (call/cc (lambda (k) (apply k args))))
2018-10-03T19:56:58Z rain2: https://bpaste.net/show/8fa1f0d68529
2018-10-03T19:57:02Z rain2: this prints `(3 5)
2018-10-03T19:58:20Z RichardShadark: Yeah
2018-10-03T19:58:22Z RichardShadark: It is
2018-10-03T19:58:58Z RichardShadark: gwatt: thanks
2018-10-03T19:59:02Z gwatt: rain2: r5rs, r6rs, and r7rs all agree that continuations take multiple values.
2018-10-03T20:01:00Z maximjaffe quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
2018-10-03T20:02:10Z rain2: what I'm kind of struggling to fully understand is the multiple prompt stuff
2018-10-03T20:02:29Z RichardShadark: Are there any other ways to implement values?
2018-10-03T20:07:37Z Zipheir: Doing manual CPS is the old way.
2018-10-03T20:07:51Z gwatt: RichardShadark: Yes https://www.scheme.com/tspl4/control.html#./control:h8
2018-10-03T20:08:18Z Zipheir: (define (my-multi-valued-function k) (k v1 v2 ... vn))
2018-10-03T20:08:33Z gwatt: You can scroll down a little bit to see the values and call-with-values in the mrvs library
2018-10-03T20:12:34Z RichardShadark: Thanks for reply
2018-10-03T20:17:39Z hugh_marera quit (Quit: hugh_marera)
2018-10-03T20:19:44Z hugh_marera joined #scheme
2018-10-03T20:27:17Z acarrico joined #scheme
2018-10-03T20:35:21Z amz3 quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2018-10-03T20:36:00Z alezost quit (Quit: I live in GuixSD <http://www.gnu.org/s/guix> and Emacs <http://www.gnu.org/s/emacs>)
2018-10-03T20:39:20Z nullcone quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity)
2018-10-03T20:41:45Z robotoad joined #scheme
2018-10-03T20:42:40Z erkin quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2018-10-03T20:46:43Z Zipheir: rain2: What do you mean by 'multiple prompt stuff'?
2018-10-03T20:47:54Z ngz quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2018-10-03T20:48:06Z RichardShadark: What's the additional stuff Chicken has?
2018-10-03T20:48:31Z wasamasa: not sure what you're talking about
2018-10-03T20:50:14Z rain2: https://docs.racket-lang.org/reference/cont.html Zipheir
2018-10-03T20:51:36Z RichardShadark: I saw people are doing some graphical stuff with chicken-scheme
2018-10-03T20:51:54Z wasamasa: yeah, I do that sometimes
2018-10-03T20:52:28Z RichardShadark: Can you share some docs on that with me?
2018-10-03T20:52:45Z wasamasa: what exactly are you looking for?
2018-10-03T20:53:47Z wasamasa: gui? creating image files? interactive demos?
2018-10-03T20:53:55Z gnupluslinuxui joined #scheme
2018-10-03T20:54:12Z RichardShadark: All of them, actually
2018-10-03T20:54:37Z wasamasa: lol
2018-10-03T20:54:48Z daviid quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2018-10-03T20:55:16Z wasamasa: there's an egg index
2018-10-03T20:55:48Z wasamasa: I can recommend imlib2/cairo for drawing/processing images
2018-10-03T20:56:08Z dmiles quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2018-10-03T20:56:08Z wasamasa: sdl2 and glfw3 (with opengl-glew) are good for interactive demos
2018-10-03T20:56:18Z wasamasa: as for gui, well, pstk is still the best, sorry
2018-10-03T20:56:27Z wasamasa: but feel free to try my guy eggs
2018-10-03T20:56:39Z wasamasa: *gui
2018-10-03T20:57:54Z RichardShadark: Thanks
2018-10-03T20:58:40Z gnupluslinuxui quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2018-10-03T20:59:32Z wasamasa: I made an egg for stfl in case you want textual user interfaces
2018-10-03T21:01:38Z jcowan quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)
2018-10-03T21:03:39Z Zipheir: rain2: That is somewhat impenetrable.
2018-10-03T21:04:09Z acarrico quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2018-10-03T21:04:49Z [diecast]AL joined #scheme
2018-10-03T21:06:38Z [diecast]AL quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2018-10-03T21:07:53Z Zipheir: rain2: OK, I think I get it. 'Prompt' is sort of a weird name for the concept.
2018-10-03T21:08:12Z rain2: yeah i think it comes from the idea of a shell prompt or something
2018-10-03T21:08:42Z Zipheir: I guess 'label' was taken.
2018-10-03T21:10:15Z Zipheir: 'Portal' would be funny, since that's sort of how they work.
2018-10-03T21:15:12Z maximjaffe joined #scheme
2018-10-03T21:15:45Z maximjaffe quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2018-10-03T21:20:43Z badkins_ quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2018-10-03T21:27:15Z muelleme quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2018-10-03T21:29:24Z civodul quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 26.1))
2018-10-03T21:31:06Z wigust- joined #scheme
2018-10-03T21:31:31Z dmiles joined #scheme
2018-10-03T21:32:58Z wigust quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2018-10-03T21:40:24Z taylan quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2018-10-03T21:44:09Z CcxWrkuM joined #scheme
2018-10-03T21:48:04Z CcxWrkuM quit (K-Lined)
2018-10-03T21:51:20Z klovett quit
2018-10-03T21:55:17Z nullcone joined #scheme
2018-10-03T21:55:50Z futuredaleoc joined #scheme
2018-10-03T21:58:17Z futuredaleoc quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2018-10-03T22:01:54Z ale_ joined #scheme
2018-10-03T22:07:16Z Guest94546 quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2018-10-03T22:07:19Z [X-Scale] joined #scheme
2018-10-03T22:07:51Z X-Scale quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
2018-10-03T22:08:02Z [X-Scale] is now known as X-Scale
2018-10-03T22:10:09Z M_D_K joined #scheme
2018-10-03T22:11:23Z robotoad_ joined #scheme
2018-10-03T22:12:36Z robotoad quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2018-10-03T22:16:24Z RichardShadark quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2018-10-03T22:22:39Z ale_ quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
2018-10-03T22:31:21Z acarrico joined #scheme
2018-10-03T22:42:16Z acarrico quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2018-10-03T22:48:46Z cortisol quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2018-10-03T23:02:24Z robotoad_ quit (Quit: robotoad_)
2018-10-03T23:02:30Z hugh_marera quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2018-10-03T23:06:58Z smazga quit (Quit: leaving)
2018-10-03T23:07:46Z mange joined #scheme
2018-10-03T23:11:43Z illwieckz joined #scheme
2018-10-03T23:13:59Z r1b quit (Quit: r1b)
2018-10-03T23:16:16Z illwieckz quit (Killed (Sigyn (Spam is off topic on freenode.)))
2018-10-03T23:19:11Z explore joined #scheme
2018-10-03T23:20:29Z explore quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2018-10-03T23:22:15Z badkins joined #scheme
2018-10-03T23:23:46Z emar quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2018-10-03T23:24:02Z klovett joined #scheme
2018-10-03T23:26:20Z Acinonyxfu joined #scheme
2018-10-03T23:30:49Z Acinonyxfu quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2018-10-03T23:31:48Z hive-mind quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
2018-10-03T23:32:26Z edgar-rft quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2018-10-03T23:33:03Z acarrico joined #scheme
2018-10-03T23:39:30Z hive-mind joined #scheme
2018-10-03T23:41:34Z siraben joined #scheme
2018-10-03T23:53:34Z vyzo quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2018-10-03T23:56:59Z ale_ joined #scheme
2018-10-04T00:14:17Z groovy2shoes quit (Excess Flood)
2018-10-04T00:14:39Z groovy2shoes joined #scheme
2018-10-04T00:16:26Z siraben: Zipheir: I've been thinking about how to implement a logic programming language/nondeterminism through backtracking in Forth.
2018-10-04T00:16:42Z siraben: Should be possible to emulate call/cc through exceptions or mangling the return stack
2018-10-04T00:20:21Z pjb quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2018-10-04T00:28:17Z daviid joined #scheme
2018-10-04T00:32:48Z jcowan joined #scheme
2018-10-04T00:38:56Z acarrico quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
2018-10-04T00:45:58Z jcob joined #scheme
2018-10-04T00:53:47Z jcowan quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)
2018-10-04T00:55:28Z pjb joined #scheme
2018-10-04T00:56:03Z jcowan joined #scheme
2018-10-04T00:57:20Z webshinra_ quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2018-10-04T00:57:34Z webshinra_ joined #scheme
2018-10-04T00:58:40Z ale_ quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
2018-10-04T01:08:52Z emar2 joined #scheme
2018-10-04T01:08:56Z emar2 quit (Client Quit)
2018-10-04T01:16:30Z gnomon quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
2018-10-04T01:22:39Z lritter quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2018-10-04T01:23:53Z gnomon joined #scheme
2018-10-04T01:28:36Z pjb quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2018-10-04T01:39:11Z muelleme joined #scheme
2018-10-04T01:42:11Z webshinra_ quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2018-10-04T01:44:48Z nullcone quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity)
2018-10-04T01:54:54Z styl1teHd joined #scheme
2018-10-04T01:55:11Z styl1teHd quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2018-10-04T02:01:47Z muelleme quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2018-10-04T02:12:56Z robotoad joined #scheme
2018-10-04T02:13:03Z lavaflow quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2018-10-04T02:14:20Z lavaflow joined #scheme
2018-10-04T02:17:56Z catern quit (Excess Flood)
2018-10-04T02:18:56Z catern joined #scheme
2018-10-04T02:37:46Z saki joined #scheme
2018-10-04T02:37:56Z saki quit (Excess Flood)
2018-10-04T02:39:40Z jgroves joined #scheme
2018-10-04T02:40:53Z jgroves quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2018-10-04T02:49:59Z linack joined #scheme
2018-10-04T02:50:16Z daviid quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2018-10-04T02:53:18Z jcob quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
2018-10-04T02:54:46Z CoconutCrab quit (Quit: leaving)
2018-10-04T02:56:55Z saki joined #scheme
2018-10-04T02:56:59Z saki quit (Excess Flood)
2018-10-04T03:00:51Z jcowan quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)
2018-10-04T03:07:50Z jcowan joined #scheme
2018-10-04T03:08:47Z saki joined #scheme
2018-10-04T03:24:49Z blt quit (Quit: ZNC 1.7.1 - https://znc.in)
2018-10-04T03:25:41Z pjb joined #scheme
2018-10-04T03:34:07Z jao quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
2018-10-04T03:37:17Z RichardShadark joined #scheme
2018-10-04T03:45:22Z jcowan quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)
2018-10-04T03:51:52Z corepingwC joined #scheme
2018-10-04T03:55:33Z corepingwC quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2018-10-04T03:58:31Z pjb quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2018-10-04T03:59:30Z Jestavl joined #scheme
2018-10-04T04:01:06Z Jestavl quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2018-10-04T04:04:54Z siraben quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
2018-10-04T04:06:12Z nullcone joined #scheme
2018-10-04T04:08:07Z saki quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2018-10-04T04:15:13Z blt joined #scheme
2018-10-04T04:15:13Z blt quit (Changing host)
2018-10-04T04:15:13Z blt joined #scheme
2018-10-04T04:25:25Z pjb joined #scheme
2018-10-04T04:27:05Z jcowan joined #scheme
2018-10-04T04:33:43Z r0kc4t_ quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2018-10-04T04:37:42Z pflanze quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2018-10-04T04:39:38Z RichardShadark quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2018-10-04T04:42:00Z pjb quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2018-10-04T04:43:01Z pflanze joined #scheme
2018-10-04T04:44:57Z jcowan quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)
2018-10-04T04:48:37Z ecraven: wasamasa: ever used hypergiant? I just read through the go demo, it looks very interesting
2018-10-04T04:57:17Z RichardShadark joined #scheme
2018-10-04T05:06:39Z g11YT joined #scheme
2018-10-04T05:08:13Z g11YT quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2018-10-04T05:34:25Z linack quit (Quit: Leaving)
2018-10-04T05:37:39Z drot quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2018-10-04T05:38:08Z muelleme joined #scheme
2018-10-04T05:43:09Z pjb joined #scheme
2018-10-04T05:47:54Z pjb quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2018-10-04T05:48:18Z Zenton quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2018-10-04T05:49:24Z Whipstickgostop joined #scheme
2018-10-04T05:56:05Z Whipstickgostop quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2018-10-04T05:59:08Z vyzo joined #scheme
2018-10-04T05:59:45Z wasamasa: ecraven: no, I don't really understand vanilla opengl :D
2018-10-04T05:59:52Z wasamasa: ecraven: so that is far beyond me
2018-10-04T06:00:34Z ecraven: wasamasa: hehe, and it's modern opengl, not immediate mode, too
2018-10-04T06:01:32Z wasamasa: I've been accused to do modern, but not the most modern opengl
2018-10-04T06:01:50Z wasamasa: https://github.com/wasamasa/gl-life
2018-10-04T06:02:15Z wasamasa: like, what the hell is a VAO
2018-10-04T06:02:27Z ecraven: ;)
2018-10-04T06:02:34Z ecraven: I really think they could have chosen better names for things
2018-10-04T06:02:44Z wasamasa: and surely this can be done in a more efficient, reusable way
2018-10-04T06:02:55Z wasamasa: because I can't imagine games doing it like that demo
2018-10-04T06:04:55Z wasamasa: ouch, picrin's master branch is still broken
2018-10-04T06:10:28Z muelleme quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2018-10-04T06:15:10Z drot joined #scheme
2018-10-04T06:15:44Z wasamasa: ecraven: PKGBUILD for picrin stable: https://ptpb.pw/uTb4/sh
2018-10-04T06:15:58Z wasamasa: ecraven: just in case you need to make it run on a different machine than the benchmarks one
2018-10-04T06:16:31Z ecraven: wasamasa: thanks, will you upload it to aur?
2018-10-04T06:16:35Z wasamasa: never
2018-10-04T06:16:49Z wasamasa: I don't want to actually maintain these, so I put it up on github at most
2018-10-04T06:17:02Z ecraven: would you mind if I put it into AUR?
2018-10-04T06:17:07Z wasamasa: please do
2018-10-04T06:17:10Z ecraven: even if it breaks, it'll be at least there for others to find
2018-10-04T06:19:19Z wasamasa: fun, I've just checked the r7rs-coverage repo and noticed picrin support is actually there
2018-10-04T06:19:32Z wasamasa: it's just not on the website
2018-10-04T06:20:05Z oddaGp joined #scheme
2018-10-04T06:20:06Z wasamasa: maybe because picrin doesn't allow dynamically determining its version?
2018-10-04T06:21:39Z ecraven: hm.. I probably just didn't get it to compile when I last ran the coverage script
2018-10-04T06:21:53Z wasamasa: alright, that should be solved then :>
2018-10-04T06:22:08Z wasamasa: maybe I should include a patch for determining the version :D
2018-10-04T06:22:38Z ecraven: better yet, make them apply it to master ;D
2018-10-04T06:23:40Z oddaGp quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2018-10-04T06:23:41Z wasamasa: builds have been failing since two years at least
2018-10-04T06:25:41Z wasamasa: 153 branches is just lazy
2018-10-04T06:27:00Z wasamasa: https://github.com/picrin-scheme/picrin/issues/354
2018-10-04T06:32:20Z [X-Scale] joined #scheme
2018-10-04T06:33:21Z civodul joined #scheme
2018-10-04T06:35:00Z X-Scale quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2018-10-04T06:35:01Z [X-Scale] is now known as X-Scale
2018-10-04T06:41:25Z wasamasa: I've already contributed foment support it seems
2018-10-04T06:41:28Z wasamasa: so just sagittarius left
2018-10-04T06:45:39Z jcowan joined #scheme
2018-10-04T06:45:39Z jcowan quit (Client Quit)
2018-10-04T07:30:46Z ggole joined #scheme
2018-10-04T07:33:51Z robotoad quit (Quit: robotoad)
2018-10-04T07:35:28Z drot quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2018-10-04T07:36:11Z elderK joined #scheme
2018-10-04T08:02:28Z mthl joined #scheme
2018-10-04T08:12:30Z drot joined #scheme
2018-10-04T08:17:59Z mange quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2018-10-04T08:27:20Z greatscottttt joined #scheme
2018-10-04T08:40:02Z Zenton joined #scheme
2018-10-04T08:59:37Z drot quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
2018-10-04T09:03:11Z drot joined #scheme
2018-10-04T09:13:09Z wigust- quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2018-10-04T09:15:19Z wigust joined #scheme
2018-10-04T09:16:41Z quipa joined #scheme
2018-10-04T09:38:27Z erratic quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2018-10-04T09:41:46Z Labu quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.0.1)
2018-10-04T09:43:07Z Labu joined #scheme
2018-10-04T09:58:54Z sylvanaarRz joined #scheme
2018-10-04T10:01:53Z sylvanaarRz quit (K-Lined)
2018-10-04T10:06:11Z erkin joined #scheme
2018-10-04T10:14:49Z nullcone quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity)
2018-10-04T10:26:34Z erratic joined #scheme
2018-10-04T10:37:54Z ale_ joined #scheme
2018-10-04T11:10:34Z nckx quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2018-10-04T11:18:16Z jcowan joined #scheme
2018-10-04T11:37:12Z jao joined #scheme
2018-10-04T11:44:43Z RichardShadark quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2018-10-04T11:45:16Z RichardShadark joined #scheme
2018-10-04T12:02:39Z civodul quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2018-10-04T12:02:51Z RichardShadark quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2018-10-04T12:10:49Z siraben joined #scheme
2018-10-04T12:18:27Z nckx joined #scheme
2018-10-04T12:22:48Z acarrico joined #scheme
2018-10-04T12:43:09Z florilege joined #scheme
2018-10-04T12:45:16Z oddaie joined #scheme
2018-10-04T12:47:33Z oddaie quit (K-Lined)
2018-10-04T12:58:18Z lritter joined #scheme
2018-10-04T13:22:30Z civodul joined #scheme
2018-10-04T13:31:56Z florilege quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2018-10-04T13:34:57Z dsample joined #scheme
2018-10-04T13:40:12Z dsample quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2018-10-04T13:50:22Z florilege joined #scheme
2018-10-04T13:50:45Z klovett quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2018-10-04T13:51:27Z klovett joined #scheme
2018-10-04T13:55:03Z florilege quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
2018-10-04T13:55:33Z jcowan quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)
2018-10-04T14:11:00Z saki joined #scheme
2018-10-04T14:11:10Z saki quit (Excess Flood)
2018-10-04T14:26:12Z ssake quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2018-10-04T14:26:19Z ssake joined #scheme
2018-10-04T14:33:49Z walterveej joined #scheme
2018-10-04T14:36:55Z walterveej quit (K-Lined)
2018-10-04T14:38:07Z jcowan joined #scheme
2018-10-04T14:40:47Z ByronJohnson quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2018-10-04T14:46:18Z ale_ quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2018-10-04T14:46:36Z ByronJohnson joined #scheme
2018-10-04T15:01:50Z cortisol joined #scheme
2018-10-04T15:10:31Z pyckY joined #scheme
2018-10-04T15:16:15Z pyckY quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2018-10-04T15:19:01Z civodul quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2018-10-04T15:19:23Z civodul joined #scheme
2018-10-04T15:27:07Z robotoad joined #scheme
2018-10-04T15:27:26Z RichardShadark joined #scheme
2018-10-04T15:28:10Z jusss joined #scheme
2018-10-04T15:45:04Z CoconutCrab joined #scheme
2018-10-04T15:47:51Z jusss quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2018-10-04T15:51:45Z civodul quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 26.1))
2018-10-04T15:52:31Z greatscottttt quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.9)
2018-10-04T16:00:24Z florilege joined #scheme
2018-10-04T16:01:26Z james29 quit (Quit: leaving)
2018-10-04T16:22:11Z duncanm: this is interesting - https://github.com/littleredcomputer/sicmutils
2018-10-04T16:28:01Z jcowan quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2018-10-04T16:36:17Z klovett quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2018-10-04T16:36:32Z klovett joined #scheme
2018-10-04T16:36:54Z hugh_marera joined #scheme
2018-10-04T16:39:20Z jcowan joined #scheme
2018-10-04T16:43:27Z pjb joined #scheme
2018-10-04T16:44:16Z TheGreekOwl quit (Quit: I must go, my planet needs me.)
2018-10-04T16:46:34Z RichardShadark quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2018-10-04T17:02:57Z smazga joined #scheme
2018-10-04T17:04:42Z mthl quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2018-10-04T17:07:44Z PilumRw joined #scheme
2018-10-04T17:14:59Z PilumRw quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2018-10-04T17:15:10Z amz3 joined #scheme
2018-10-04T17:21:55Z quipa quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2018-10-04T17:23:32Z quipa joined #scheme
2018-10-04T17:32:42Z amz3 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2018-10-04T17:38:08Z amz3 joined #scheme
2018-10-04T17:41:54Z Zenton quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2018-10-04T17:44:41Z Labu quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.0.1)
2018-10-04T17:46:37Z nullcone joined #scheme
2018-10-04T17:46:44Z ale_ joined #scheme
2018-10-04T17:53:04Z amz3 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2018-10-04T17:53:35Z Labu joined #scheme
2018-10-04T17:58:29Z amz3 joined #scheme
2018-10-04T17:59:18Z pjb quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2018-10-04T18:00:39Z Zipheir: "Scmutils is an excellent system, but it is written in an older variant of LISP (Scheme)..."
2018-10-04T18:01:05Z Zipheir: Apparently Clojure is New And Improved Lisp?
2018-10-04T18:01:19Z wasamasa: of course
2018-10-04T18:01:32Z Zipheir: s/And Improved//
2018-10-04T18:01:37Z Zipheir: s/Lisp//
2018-10-04T18:02:20Z gwatt: Clojure is certainly newer than scheme
2018-10-04T18:02:52Z gwatt: and it's still a lisp
2018-10-04T18:03:01Z Zipheir: I know, just kidding.
2018-10-04T18:03:47Z Zipheir: The author ^^ was citing being written in Scheme as a Bad Thing about scmutils.
2018-10-04T18:08:35Z gwatt: I didn't realize that mit-scheme had currying built into define.
2018-10-04T18:08:46Z wasamasa: so does CHICKEN
2018-10-04T18:09:16Z gwatt: nifty
2018-10-04T18:10:01Z wasamasa: can't say I've found a use for it
2018-10-04T18:10:42Z Zipheir: wasamasa: Cool, I didn't realize CHICKEN extended define in that way.
2018-10-04T18:11:04Z gwatt: wasamasa: that's fair. I've never really needed it either
2018-10-04T18:11:53Z gwatt: On the one hand, I like clojure's list destructuring as part of the argument list
2018-10-04T18:12:59Z gwatt: but I also think passing the arguments around inside of lists is a bit silly
2018-10-04T18:13:14Z hoh joined #scheme
2018-10-04T18:15:58Z wasamasa: let's pass arguments around with smoke signs
2018-10-04T18:16:36Z lyf[kde] joined #scheme
2018-10-04T18:16:45Z lyf[kde] quit (Quit: Quit)
2018-10-04T18:18:37Z lyf[kde] joined #scheme
2018-10-04T18:18:43Z Zipheir: Hickey just has to do everything his own way.
2018-10-04T18:19:26Z lyf[kde] quit (Client Quit)
2018-10-04T18:19:33Z lyf[kde] joined #scheme
2018-10-04T18:19:57Z wasamasa: I like that he admitted lazy sequences weren't that useful
2018-10-04T18:20:59Z Zipheir: Probably because he doesn't understand them.
2018-10-04T18:21:02Z lyf[kde] quit (Client Quit)
2018-10-04T18:21:09Z lyf[kde] joined #scheme
2018-10-04T18:22:50Z lyf[kde] quit (Client Quit)
2018-10-04T18:22:52Z wasamasa: the argument was about transducers, if he came up with the right design way earlier, the language would look quite different
2018-10-04T18:22:59Z lyf[kde] joined #scheme
2018-10-04T18:23:39Z wasamasa: I have to agree here, most of the time lazy sequences aren't what I want and have to be used carefully to retain their characteristics
2018-10-04T18:23:46Z wasamasa: transducers allow doing this properly
2018-10-04T18:24:37Z jcob joined #scheme
2018-10-04T18:26:31Z amz3 quit (Changing host)
2018-10-04T18:26:31Z amz3 joined #scheme
2018-10-04T18:26:32Z Zipheir: I have not used Clojure, but based on clojure.org's summary tranducers seem to be a (complicated) way to do what Haskell does with Foldable and Traversable.
2018-10-04T18:26:39Z lyf[kde]: Wikipedia says GUI can be represented as a monad. A GUI monad? How do you program a GUI monadically?
2018-10-04T18:26:45Z amz3: o/
2018-10-04T18:28:03Z Zipheir: lyf[kde]: What article did you find that in? It's a pretty general statement.
2018-10-04T18:28:23Z Zipheir: amz3: o/!
2018-10-04T18:29:09Z amz3: Zipheir: live the question!
2018-10-04T18:29:11Z amz3: :)
2018-10-04T18:29:16Z wasamasa: Zipheir: transducers are inspired by the series package for CL
2018-10-04T18:29:41Z wasamasa: Zipheir: basically, you have a way to combine reducing functions that do the typical srfi-1 stuff
2018-10-04T18:30:03Z wasamasa: Zipheir: so the code reads nicely, but it works like a complicated fold
2018-10-04T18:31:04Z lyf[kde] quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2018-10-04T18:31:52Z pjb joined #scheme
2018-10-04T18:32:47Z amz3: gone
2018-10-04T18:33:21Z alezost joined #scheme
2018-10-04T18:34:21Z Zipheir: wasamasa: Sounds a bit like lenses.
2018-10-04T18:34:43Z wasamasa: I wouldn't say so, but then, I believe lenses are haskell's version of setf
2018-10-04T18:34:48Z Zipheir: wasamasa: I have to say that Rich Hickey does a really bad job of explaining this idea.
2018-10-04T18:35:34Z Zipheir: Interesting: https://www.reddit.com/r/haskell/comments/2cv6l4/clojures_transducers_are_perverse_lenses/
2018-10-04T18:35:34Z jcowan: Lazy sequences are universal glue: provide conversions between them and every (flat) data structure, and you have many-to-many conversion'
2018-10-04T18:36:34Z gwatt: jcowan: Can't say that about any kind of sequence?
2018-10-04T18:36:57Z jcowan: Only at O(n) cost in space
2018-10-04T18:37:47Z wasamasa: Zipheir: I believe this misses the point, it's purely about efficiency, like in stream fusion
2018-10-04T18:41:05Z Zipheir: So they seem to be a way of building up fold-able procedures.
2018-10-04T18:43:58Z Zipheir: Well, folds, not foldable procedures.
2018-10-04T18:49:19Z Zipheir: The fact that type theory nuts can't seem to agree on what the hell type a transducer is is not encouraging.
2018-10-04T18:49:21Z ggole quit (Quit: ggole)
2018-10-04T18:49:38Z wasamasa: :D
2018-10-04T18:49:45Z wasamasa: type theory is the new nerd religion
2018-10-04T18:50:10Z Zipheir: scoff scoff
2018-10-04T18:50:38Z wasamasa: that's what they say on #chicken
2018-10-04T18:50:43Z qu1j0t3: do they huh
2018-10-04T18:53:10Z lyf[kde] joined #scheme
2018-10-04T18:53:34Z lyf[kde] quit (Client Quit)
2018-10-04T18:55:24Z amz3 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2018-10-04T18:59:05Z TheGreekOwl joined #scheme
2018-10-04T19:02:07Z amz3 joined #scheme
2018-10-04T19:02:07Z Zipheir: It's just amusing to see projects like Clojure that wrote off static typing at the outset basically re-implementing fold fusion and typeclasses.
2018-10-04T19:02:27Z Zipheir: s/re-implementing/rediscovering/
2018-10-04T19:04:12Z amz3 quit (Changing host)
2018-10-04T19:04:12Z amz3 joined #scheme
2018-10-04T19:05:03Z pjb quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2018-10-04T19:05:11Z amz3: what is fold fusion?
2018-10-04T19:07:38Z Zipheir: amz3: There are several theorems establishing how you can merge folds compose with folds or other functions. They're awesome. Hutton's paper on them is great: http://www.cs.nott.ac.uk/~pszgmh/fold.pdf
2018-10-04T19:07:57Z Zipheir: *composed
2018-10-04T19:11:45Z amz3: you make me think, that I need to re-read the paper on the art of the propagator
2018-10-04T19:12:23Z amz3: http://web.mit.edu/~axch/www/art.pdf
2018-10-04T19:12:32Z muelleme joined #scheme
2018-10-04T19:13:00Z Zipheir: amz3: For example, the basic fusion theorem says that (f (fold g a ...)) can be replaced with (fold h b ...) if certain things hold.
2018-10-04T19:13:19Z Zipheir: amz3: This is very powerful, since an incredible number of things can be expressed as folds.
2018-10-04T19:13:26Z jcowan: Zipheir: I'm sneaking typeclasses into Scheme slowly (without changes to the language)
2018-10-04T19:13:46Z amz3: Zipheir: I don't use fold that often, maybe my mistake
2018-10-04T19:13:53Z Zipheir: jcowan: w00t
2018-10-04T19:14:00Z amz3: jcowan: what do you mean by typeclasses
2018-10-04T19:14:18Z jcowan: SRFI 128 comparators are a reification of classes Eq, Ord, and Hashable
2018-10-04T19:14:21Z hugh_marera quit (Quit: hugh_marera)
2018-10-04T19:14:36Z jcowan: basically they are explicit versions of the dictionaries Haskell passes around under the covers
2018-10-04T19:15:02Z Zipheir: amz3: Cool paper, ty.
2018-10-04T19:16:11Z jcowan: next will be Maybe and Either frameworks, then Monad/Monoid
2018-10-04T19:17:47Z jcowan: I came up with what I think is a New Thing for Either
2018-10-04T19:18:13Z jcowan: either-swap takes an Either and makes it a Left if it is a Right and a Right if it is a Left, with the same payload
2018-10-04T19:18:25Z razzy joined #scheme
2018-10-04T19:18:56Z Zipheir: jcowan: Is the preferred way to make use of comparators via the <?, >?, etc. procedures?
2018-10-04T19:19:09Z Zipheir: jcowan: I'm currently trying to find a nice way to work them into existing code.
2018-10-04T19:19:20Z jcowan: Definitely one way, but there are several, depending on what you want to do
2018-10-04T19:19:46Z jcowan: the recent SRFIs for sets, hashtables, etc. often accept them as an argument
2018-10-04T19:19:59Z jcowan: to the constructor, and sometimes in other places
2018-10-04T19:20:15Z Zipheir: Ah, interesting.
2018-10-04T19:20:18Z hoh quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2018-10-04T19:20:29Z jcowan: The nice thing is that you can create comparators ad hoc, as long as you obey the comparator laws, and they will just work.
2018-10-04T19:24:25Z Zipheir: Would it be reasonable to 'wrap' comparators with procedures (macros if necessary) such that Eq/Ord/Hashable operations call make-default-comparator under the covers?
2018-10-04T19:24:37Z Zipheir: Possibly too sneaky.
2018-10-04T19:24:49Z jcowan: Sure
2018-10-04T19:25:19Z jcowan: Lisp is all about (intraprogram) gle
2018-10-04T19:25:21Z jcowan: glue
2018-10-04T19:26:58Z wasamasa quit (Changing host)
2018-10-04T19:26:58Z wasamasa joined #scheme
2018-10-04T19:28:37Z hugh_marera joined #scheme
2018-10-04T19:29:42Z lyf[kde] joined #scheme
2018-10-04T19:30:45Z lyf[kde]: Zipheir: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monad_(functional_programming)
2018-10-04T19:30:45Z lyf[kde]: "Other concepts that researchers have expressed as monads include:
2018-10-04T19:30:45Z lyf[kde]:     Iteratee
2018-10-04T19:30:45Z lyf[kde]:     Exception handling
2018-10-04T19:30:45Z lyf[kde]:     Graphical user interfaces
2018-10-04T19:30:46Z lyf[kde]:     Interprocess communication
2018-10-04T19:30:46Z lyf[kde]:     Parsers
2018-10-04T19:30:47Z lyf[kde]:     Interpreters
2018-10-04T19:30:47Z lyf[kde]:     Strict evaluation
2018-10-04T19:30:48Z lyf[kde]:     Interfaces to code written in other languages"
2018-10-04T19:31:32Z amz3 quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
2018-10-04T19:32:02Z lyf[kde]: https://wiki.haskell.org/Phooey
2018-10-04T19:32:02Z lyf[kde]: "Phooey is a functional UI library for Haskell. Or it's two of them, as it provides a Monad
2018-10-04T19:32:02Z lyf[kde]: interface and an Applicative
2018-10-04T19:32:02Z lyf[kde]: interface. The simplicity of Phooey's implementation is due to its use of Reactive for applicative, data-driven computation. "
2018-10-04T19:32:28Z wasamasa: anything that doesn't fit into haskell as is can and will be expressed as a monad by haskell programmers
2018-10-04T19:32:52Z wasamasa: this includes, but isn't limited to state, IO, continuations, X.org, GUIs, etc.
2018-10-04T19:33:29Z Zipheir: wasamasa: Some of those monads have been brilliant discoveries.
2018-10-04T19:35:03Z Zipheir: lyf[kde]: That's an interesting library.
2018-10-04T19:35:17Z wasamasa: I don't see what it got to do with scheme though
2018-10-04T19:35:54Z lyf[kde]: Functional programming
2018-10-04T19:36:13Z wasamasa: scheme isn't about functional programming
2018-10-04T19:36:37Z wasamasa: you're encouraged to do FP, sure, but that's about it
2018-10-04T19:37:35Z Zipheir: lyf[kde]: I haven't done any monadic GUI programming, but the model that would seem to fit would be to treat the GUI much like an IO monad--you pull values out of it, and use pure functions to return IO actions to be run in the GUI.
2018-10-04T19:39:06Z Zipheir: lyf[kde]: There's no reason something like that couldn't be done in Scheem.
2018-10-04T19:39:21Z Zipheir: Scheeeeeeeeme, or something.
2018-10-04T19:39:55Z wasamasa: sure, but there is no reason OO GUI couldn't be done in scheme either :P
2018-10-04T19:40:44Z lyf[kde]: But OO isn't writing in scheme for, even though you can do it anyways
2018-10-04T19:40:47Z Zipheir: Sure, if that's what you want.
2018-10-04T19:41:31Z wasamasa: nearly all GUI libraries I've looked at in scheme are OO
2018-10-04T19:41:47Z wasamasa: the exceptions are imperative
2018-10-04T19:42:20Z wasamasa: so sure, argue for FP all you want, but it's not the point of scheme
2018-10-04T19:42:47Z Zipheir: lyf[kde]: Fun fact, Sussman and Steele came up with Scheme in order to understand the actor model, which is sort of an OO approach.
2018-10-04T19:42:54Z Zipheir: lyf[kde]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scheme_(programming_language)#Origins
2018-10-04T19:43:09Z wasamasa: if you want pure FP, go back to haskell
2018-10-04T19:43:29Z lyf[kde]: No, anything but Haskell
2018-10-04T19:43:43Z Zipheir: wasamasa: What's the "point" of any language? You're not saying much with that line of argument.
2018-10-04T19:43:55Z wasamasa: Zipheir: it's stated quite clearly in the RnRS documents
2018-10-04T19:45:20Z Zipheir: wasamasa: Section, please.
2018-10-04T19:45:27Z wasamasa: it's right at the beginning
2018-10-04T19:45:58Z wasamasa: > It was designed to have exceptionally clear and simple semantics and few different ways to form expressions. A wide variety of programming paradigms, including imperative, functional, and object-oriented styles, find convenient expression in Scheme.
2018-10-04T19:47:08Z wasamasa: the same can be observed in texts like SICP
2018-10-04T19:47:38Z razzy: i like it :]
2018-10-04T19:48:53Z Zipheir: wasamasa: I still don't understand what you mean by "the point of Scheme". To be clear at all costs?
2018-10-04T19:49:49Z muelleme quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2018-10-04T19:49:50Z nisstyre: scheme is a functional programming language
2018-10-04T19:49:59Z lyf[kde]: But Racket's macro system is awesome. This is how you implement do notation in racket: https://el-tramo.be/blog/async-monad/ This is how you do it in $Rust $macros https://github.com/TeXitoi/rust-mdo/blob/master/src/lib.rs
2018-10-04T19:49:59Z wasamasa: note that I wrote about what's *not* the point of it
2018-10-04T19:50:01Z nisstyre: there's really no doubt about that
2018-10-04T19:50:07Z nisstyre: lisp is not
2018-10-04T19:50:10Z muelleme joined #scheme
2018-10-04T19:50:52Z wigust quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2018-10-04T19:50:54Z wasamasa: it is also an imperative and object-oriented language
2018-10-04T19:50:59Z wasamasa: see the above citation
2018-10-04T19:51:30Z Zipheir: wasamasa: OK, yes.
2018-10-04T19:51:58Z wigust joined #scheme
2018-10-04T19:52:06Z Zenton joined #scheme
2018-10-04T19:52:19Z nisstyre: wasamasa: Haskell is an imperative language too then
2018-10-04T19:52:20Z Zipheir: wasamasa: But I have to nitpick: What *isn't* the point of Scheme isn't clearly stated in the RnRS Summary.
2018-10-04T19:54:21Z Zipheir: lyf[kde]: Rust is not an especially beautiful language :-)
2018-10-04T19:54:45Z rain2: https://el-tramo.be/blog/async-monad/ <- you could also do it with continuations
2018-10-04T19:55:54Z Zipheir: lyf[kde]: See also Oleg's monad macros, which are much more Schemey and trivial to implement: http://okmij.org/ftp/Scheme/monad-in-Scheme.html
2018-10-04T19:57:02Z Zipheir: rain2: That post doesn't use continuations. Mis-paste?
2018-10-04T19:58:35Z lyf[kde]: Type aliasing in Typed Racket: (define-type (Func a b) (-> a b))
2018-10-04T19:58:35Z lyf[kde]: Type (trait for functions) aliasing in Rust:
2018-10-04T19:58:35Z lyf[kde]: macro_rules! trait_alias {
2018-10-04T19:58:35Z lyf[kde]:     ($letter:ident,
2018-10-04T19:58:35Z lyf[kde]:      $name:ident<$lifetime:lifetime $(, $generics:ident $(: $bounds:tt )* )*>,
2018-10-04T19:58:36Z lyf[kde]:      $( $base:tt )+ ) => {
2018-10-04T19:58:36Z lyf[kde]:         pub trait $name <$lifetime $(, $generics $(: $bounds)* )*> :
2018-10-04T19:58:37Z lyf[kde]:         $( $base )+ {}
2018-10-04T19:58:38Z lyf[kde]:         impl <$lifetime $(, $generics $(: $bounds)* )* , $letter :
2018-10-04T19:58:38Z lyf[kde]:         ( $( $base )+ )> $name<$lifetime $(, $generics )*> for $letter {}
2018-10-04T19:58:39Z lyf[kde]:     }
2018-10-04T19:58:39Z lyf[kde]: }
2018-10-04T19:58:40Z lyf[kde]: trait_alias!(
2018-10-04T19:58:40Z lyf[kde]:     X,
2018-10-04T19:58:41Z lyf[kde]:     Parser<'a, T: 'a>,
2018-10-04T19:58:41Z lyf[kde]:     Fn(&'a Input) -> Result<Output<'a, T>, Error>
2018-10-04T19:58:42Z wasamasa: jesus fuck
2018-10-04T19:59:31Z rain2: ok
2018-10-04T19:59:46Z lyf[kde]: And this does not take into account thi s without lifetime, etc
2018-10-04T19:59:57Z lyf[kde]: * things
2018-10-04T19:59:58Z klovett quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2018-10-04T20:00:32Z Zipheir: lyf[kde]: Please use a pastebin (rustbucket?) next time.
2018-10-04T20:00:34Z klovett joined #scheme
2018-10-04T20:01:20Z Zipheir: lyf[kde]: Also, that macro looks like line noise o_o
2018-10-04T20:01:48Z wasamasa: quick, someone argue that rust is scheme-related because it has hygienic macros
2018-10-04T20:02:11Z lyf[kde]: https://gist.github.com/flynn16/e9d97cb6a546489048fce404df6dc4ed
2018-10-04T20:03:00Z gwatt: wasamasa: I know a couple of people who were working on the implementation of rust macros. They were both schemers.
2018-10-04T20:04:08Z Zipheir: Rust's sigilmania is hard to take. https://xkcd.com/1306/
2018-10-04T20:05:02Z gwatt: you probably wouldn't like perl6 then
2018-10-04T20:05:13Z gwatt: they have sigils AND twigils
2018-10-04T20:06:45Z wasamasa: but do they have virgils??
2018-10-04T20:06:45Z Zipheir: gwatt: twigils? At least Larry's names are fun.
2018-10-04T20:07:06Z gwatt: Zipheir: twigils are sigils that are different from other sigils
2018-10-04T20:07:28Z gwatt: https://docs.perl6.org/language/variables
2018-10-04T20:09:06Z Zipheir: Tricky.
2018-10-04T20:13:59Z Zipheir: lyf[kde]: Given how (relatively) simple scheme's macros are, it's impressive how convoluted Rust managed to make their hygenic system.
2018-10-04T20:19:29Z Zenton quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2018-10-04T20:20:23Z lyf[kde] quit (Quit: Quit)
2018-10-04T20:22:19Z RichardShadark joined #scheme
2018-10-04T20:22:38Z amz3 joined #scheme
2018-10-04T20:31:46Z Zenton joined #scheme
2018-10-04T20:32:04Z Zenton quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2018-10-04T20:32:35Z Zenton joined #scheme
2018-10-04T20:37:23Z Ober: xb
2018-10-04T20:42:41Z razzy: howdo i edit add-default-path  to scheeme for looking for files
2018-10-04T20:43:26Z razzy: how do i add-default-path  to scheme for source files. sorry it is late here
2018-10-04T20:45:38Z razzy: solvef
2018-10-04T20:45:41Z razzy: solved
2018-10-04T20:47:48Z jcowan: razzy: When you ask questions like that, you need to say what Scheme you are using.
2018-10-04T20:47:56Z jcowan: Otherwise we can't even start trying to help you.
2018-10-04T20:48:08Z razzy: mit
2018-10-04T20:48:25Z jyaXC joined #scheme
2018-10-04T20:51:07Z jyaXC quit (K-Lined)
2018-10-04T21:00:46Z muelleme quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2018-10-04T21:02:14Z pjb joined #scheme
2018-10-04T21:05:41Z jcowan quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)
2018-10-04T21:05:47Z pierpal joined #scheme
2018-10-04T21:07:22Z elmsNc joined #scheme
2018-10-04T21:07:25Z hugh_marera quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2018-10-04T21:08:03Z razzy: well, still no luck, my solved thingy was premature
2018-10-04T21:08:11Z razzy: first time with scheme
2018-10-04T21:09:53Z razzy: for evaluate variable?
2018-10-04T21:10:02Z razzy: how do i evaluate variable?
2018-10-04T21:10:29Z hugh_marera joined #scheme
2018-10-04T21:10:56Z wasamasa: I think a lisp tutorial is in order
2018-10-04T21:11:44Z elmsNc quit (K-Lined)
2018-10-04T21:15:57Z wasamasa: the thing is that lisp is about evaluating all the things
2018-10-04T21:16:10Z wasamasa: if you give a lisp interpreter a variable, it evaluates it
2018-10-04T21:17:11Z razzy: irony?
2018-10-04T21:17:32Z Ober: ferrous?
2018-10-04T21:18:33Z razzy: :D
2018-10-04T21:18:49Z Ober: Pyrite is irony
2018-10-04T21:20:33Z razzy: btw, what is my problem? pls ? https://ptpb.pw/XJ8V
2018-10-04T21:22:08Z wasamasa: you don't understand what set! is
2018-10-04T21:22:31Z razzy: ys :]
2018-10-04T21:22:32Z wasamasa: use define to define a variable and set! to set its value to something different
2018-10-04T21:22:49Z razzy: lol
2018-10-04T21:27:50Z Zipheir: razzy: Have you jumped over from the Common Lisp ship?
2018-10-04T21:28:00Z klovett quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2018-10-04T21:28:16Z klovett joined #scheme
2018-10-04T21:34:05Z razzy: not really, i like some scheme code, so i want to asssimilate it
2018-10-04T21:34:05Z acarrico quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2018-10-04T21:34:39Z pjb quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2018-10-04T21:34:42Z alezost quit (Quit: I live in GuixSD <http://www.gnu.org/s/guix> and Emacs <http://www.gnu.org/s/emacs>)
2018-10-04T21:35:09Z razzy: so functions and variables are in same virtual space :]
2018-10-04T21:35:21Z razzy: and we have special define-class
2018-10-04T21:35:39Z razzy: what a scheme :D
2018-10-04T21:36:32Z Zipheir: razzy: Yes, none of that sharp-quote bogus here.
2018-10-04T21:37:22Z razzy: i mean, why have define-class, what a waste
2018-10-04T21:42:43Z RichardShadark quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2018-10-04T21:47:21Z TCZ joined #scheme
2018-10-04T21:52:46Z razzy: i still not figured ou how to add load path
2018-10-04T21:57:09Z TCZ quit (Quit: Leaving)
2018-10-04T22:03:33Z erkin quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2018-10-04T22:04:04Z razzy: how do i list all variables and functions scheme has?
2018-10-04T22:04:38Z razzy: *print all functions
2018-10-04T22:05:43Z Zipheir: Ummm...
2018-10-04T22:06:01Z aeth: Not portably
2018-10-04T22:06:38Z pjb joined #scheme
2018-10-04T22:06:41Z razzy: there should not be that many gloabat variables and basic functions
2018-10-04T22:06:42Z Zipheir: I know it's a stupid response, but why would you want to do _that_?
2018-10-04T22:07:00Z razzy: Zipheir: to look what is there
2018-10-04T22:07:03Z aeth: Zipheir: e.g. IDE
2018-10-04T22:07:55Z aeth: Very useful feature, especially if they also store where they are defined for a trivial Emacs M-.
2018-10-04T22:07:57Z razzy: there should be function list somewhere in scheme no?
2018-10-04T22:08:46Z Zipheir: aeth: _Everything_ defined at toplevel, or just user-defined stuff?
2018-10-04T22:08:59Z razzy: Zipheir: everything :]
2018-10-04T22:09:05Z Zipheir: Oy vey.
2018-10-04T22:09:13Z razzy: i know whati defined :]
2018-10-04T22:09:55Z aeth: Zipheir: CL stores everything somehow for SLIME, but if you just used a binary you obiviously just get a garbage path for builtins
2018-10-04T22:09:57Z razzy: 50 functions and 10 variables?
2018-10-04T22:10:01Z Zipheir: In a long REPL session, it might be nice to know all the garbage I've added.
2018-10-04T22:10:26Z razzy: true
2018-10-04T22:12:31Z Ober ponders what will be in r8rs since r9rs is already declared as CL
2018-10-04T22:13:27Z aeth: idk but r10rs is just Haskell
2018-10-04T22:13:57Z Ober: hmm r10rs.org no such domain
2018-10-04T22:13:59Z n-stYQ joined #scheme
2018-10-04T22:15:49Z n-stYQ quit (K-Lined)
2018-10-04T22:16:53Z qu1j0t3: that one will be on the blockchain
2018-10-04T22:17:19Z Zipheir: Hah
2018-10-04T22:17:50Z qu1j0t3 feels dirty
2018-10-04T22:19:12Z bigfondue quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2018-10-04T22:29:06Z razzy: still do not know, how to add default load path
2018-10-04T22:31:33Z jcob quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2018-10-04T22:31:34Z wasamasa: I'm sure the docs tell you that
2018-10-04T22:31:41Z wasamasa: they may be old and twisted, but truthful
2018-10-04T22:34:34Z smazga quit (Quit: leaving)
2018-10-04T22:51:13Z muelleme joined #scheme
2018-10-04T22:53:58Z razzy: hmm what could  this mean ? ilegal character? scheme do not do []?
2018-10-04T22:54:23Z wasamasa: that depends on the standard and implementation
2018-10-04T22:54:29Z wasamasa: go read the docs
2018-10-04T22:56:01Z muelleme quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2018-10-04T23:02:17Z niklasl2 joined #scheme
2018-10-04T23:02:39Z niklasl quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2018-10-04T23:03:44Z r1b joined #scheme
2018-10-04T23:05:55Z razzy: reading, trying,... https://github.com/skeeto/Scheme-Neural-Network/blob/master/ann.ss line 52, there are [] and my compiler is mad at me
2018-10-04T23:06:34Z wasamasa: doesn't look like docs to me :>
2018-10-04T23:06:45Z razzy: cannot find any docs on this
2018-10-04T23:07:01Z wasamasa: bullshit
2018-10-04T23:07:16Z wasamasa: have you even tried to enter mit-scheme into a search engine?
2018-10-04T23:08:29Z razzy: yes, but not on []
2018-10-04T23:08:40Z razzy: mit-scheme []
2018-10-04T23:08:53Z wasamasa: well, no, that's for finding the docs
2018-10-04T23:09:01Z wasamasa: to figure out what the docs say on [], you must actually read them
2018-10-04T23:10:46Z robotoad quit (Quit: robotoad)
2018-10-04T23:14:07Z jcowan joined #scheme
2018-10-04T23:15:23Z razzy: nah, solved
2018-10-04T23:18:29Z Zipheir: razzy: So are [] just () in MIT, as in a lot of other Schemes?
2018-10-04T23:19:50Z Duns_Scrotus: racket mode has a very nice feature to cycle between the different kinds of braces
2018-10-04T23:20:34Z ski: (is that an Emacs mode ?)
2018-10-04T23:20:42Z Duns_Scrotus: yes
2018-10-04T23:21:11Z razzy: Zipheir: imho almost
2018-10-04T23:21:37Z Zipheir: razzy: xD
2018-10-04T23:21:40Z razzy: i changed it with intended purpose, i hope
2018-10-04T23:21:48Z razzy: will see
2018-10-04T23:22:22Z razzy: ski: yes i am using emacs
2018-10-04T23:22:25Z Zipheir: razzy: Whenever there's an FAQ item for whether a language supports feature x, the answer should always be 'imho almost'.
2018-10-04T23:22:56Z wasamasa: FWIW, I found docs on what [] are for in mit-scheme and why they behave as they do
2018-10-04T23:23:02Z razzy: true,...
2018-10-04T23:23:27Z quipa quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2018-10-04T23:23:38Z razzy: wasamasa: care to share?
2018-10-04T23:23:42Z wasamasa: nah
2018-10-04T23:23:46Z wasamasa: figure it out yourself
2018-10-04T23:24:05Z razzy: :D maybe i did
2018-10-04T23:26:18Z razzy: wasamasa: imho in code there is some mess from different language
2018-10-04T23:27:38Z wasamasa: razzy: no idea what you're talking about
2018-10-04T23:29:34Z pierpal quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2018-10-04T23:29:39Z razzy: wasamasa: are [] for declarations of variables?
2018-10-04T23:29:59Z razzy: in some extra new or obcure implementations of scheme?
2018-10-04T23:30:14Z wasamasa: there are some scheme implementations where [] is the same as ()
2018-10-04T23:30:18Z wasamasa: mit-scheme isn't one of those
2018-10-04T23:30:39Z wasamasa: the question is, what the hell does mit-scheme use them for and its docs answer it perfectly
2018-10-04T23:31:25Z robotoad joined #scheme
2018-10-04T23:31:36Z razzy:  pure replace [] with () does not work
2018-10-04T23:31:56Z wasamasa: I suggest you to actually learn the language before trying to port code
2018-10-04T23:32:13Z razzy: where is fun in that?
2018-10-04T23:32:35Z wasamasa: it's a different kind of fun
2018-10-04T23:32:58Z razzy: fun where actualy averything goes as planned?
2018-10-04T23:33:23Z jcowan quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)
2018-10-04T23:33:27Z wasamasa: nah, learning is hardly that straight-forward
2018-10-04T23:33:54Z razzy: can you point to me, how to google part of docs that have []?
2018-10-04T23:34:09Z aeth: razzy: The problem is that there isn't one 'Scheme'. It's more of a language (sub)family than a language. The standard is microscopic so most useful behavior is implemented by the implementations. Even simple things like hash tables.
2018-10-04T23:34:29Z wasamasa: razzy: you google for the mit-scheme docs describing how the language works, then you search them (without google)
2018-10-04T23:34:53Z wasamasa: razzy: because google is absolute crap at searching for symbols
2018-10-04T23:34:57Z lritter quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2018-10-04T23:35:10Z aeth: razzy: You would have to know everything that is in that program that's non-standard and be able to implement that in portable Scheme (or implementation-specific Scheme for some other implementation) to port it
2018-10-04T23:35:26Z aeth: not just the obvious stuff like []
2018-10-04T23:36:12Z amz3 quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2018-10-04T23:36:40Z aeth: (Or, alternatively, reimplement the parts that use non-portable procedures/macros)
2018-10-04T23:37:24Z mange joined #scheme
2018-10-04T23:37:57Z aeth: e.g. compose doesn't appear to be in the standard (except as an example definition)
2018-10-04T23:37:58Z amz3 joined #scheme
2018-10-04T23:38:55Z aeth: It's possible that there are SRFIs that already do what you want to do and that the implementation you're using just doesn't load them by default. https://srfi.schemers.org/
2018-10-04T23:39:17Z aeth: push! looks like something that almost certainly would be in one of the popular SRFIs
2018-10-04T23:39:29Z aeth: oh, nope, it's a macro defined in that file
2018-10-04T23:41:37Z razzy: aeth: plan is to step through the program and fix what is broken
2018-10-04T23:43:07Z razzy: scheme is hopefully readable enough and not quirky like most weird lisps
2018-10-04T23:43:44Z Zipheir: razzy: Like CL.
2018-10-04T23:44:04Z razzy: CL is readable or quirky
2018-10-04T23:44:21Z razzy: macros i still have problems with
2018-10-04T23:45:08Z Zipheir: Quirky.
2018-10-04T23:46:23Z razzy: afk, GN
2018-10-04T23:46:27Z aeth: Zipheir: You can ignore most of the CL quirks. No one uses set or rplaca.
2018-10-04T23:46:44Z aeth: Zipheir: When I think weird I think compile-to-JS or something along those lines.
2018-10-04T23:47:06Z razzy: aeth: it is fun and games, until you spend day on quirk
2018-10-04T23:47:45Z Zipheir: aeth: I just have to troll the CL partisans occasionally. :)
2018-10-04T23:48:24Z aeth: Zipheir: The only valid language to attack is JavaScript imo
2018-10-04T23:48:35Z aeth: No one minds (except, apparently, the ops of #racket)
2018-10-04T23:49:33Z razzy: there is no need for more than one language,.. i just did not figured the one yet :]
2018-10-04T23:50:45Z jcowan joined #scheme
2018-10-04T23:51:08Z connor_goodwolfw joined #scheme
2018-10-04T23:51:13Z razzy: and than there would be nothing left to do
2018-10-04T23:51:36Z siraben quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2018-10-04T23:55:15Z aeth: razzy, Zipheir: I think the only quirk where you'll spend all day in CL is the automatic symbol upcasing. 95% of the time it just works and then you have things like when you need case sensitivity but you're using a DSL that was written to assume case insensitivity (saw someone with this issue in #lisp with a SQL DSL a few weeks ago).
2018-10-04T23:56:24Z connor_goodwolfw quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2018-10-04T23:57:09Z aeth: And then when you do something like, say, implement a Scheme in CL, it really gets tricky. I think my solution is probably going to be to have a case-sensitive Scheme and downcase everything that's defined in CL when using it from Scheme and upcase everything that's defined in Scheme when using it from CL and that will work 95% of the time, perhaps with an override for when that doesn't work.
2018-10-04T23:57:34Z InverseRhombus quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2018-10-04T23:58:46Z aeth: so (define-scheme-procedure (foo bar baz) ...) will receive the symbols FOO BAR BAZ (from the default reader) and turn them into |foo| |bar| |baz|. And any call-Scheme-from-CL will assume a procedure foo can be expressed as a CL function R7RS:FOO.
2018-10-04T23:59:02Z aeth: But it's really a giant interoperability mess that never even had to happen.
2018-10-05T00:00:29Z aeth: (They could have just had compatibility packages where 'foo would also define a 'FOO and then you could run programs with CL:CAR or cl:car. Anyone using CL:CaR deserves to have a broken program.)
2018-10-05T00:00:45Z aeth: s/run programs with/run programs containing/
2018-10-05T00:05:26Z jcowan quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)
2018-10-05T00:05:29Z acarrico joined #scheme
2018-10-05T00:09:54Z razzy: people should actively delete unused uninteresting code
2018-10-05T00:10:31Z razzy: and be more happy with deleting than writing
2018-10-05T00:11:29Z robotoad quit (Max SendQ exceeded)
2018-10-05T00:11:30Z razzy: i think, most are still more happy when write :(
2018-10-05T00:14:19Z aeth: In the old days you'd keep everything because you might need it again later. At least nowadays people have (nearly) everything in source control so you can freely remove it and look it up again later as long as you don't delete the repo itself
2018-10-05T00:16:19Z khisanth_ quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2018-10-05T00:17:46Z Autolycus joined #scheme
2018-10-05T00:23:15Z robotoad joined #scheme
2018-10-05T00:25:55Z jcowan joined #scheme
2018-10-05T00:30:00Z khisanth_ joined #scheme
2018-10-05T00:35:29Z Autolycus quit
2018-10-05T00:35:46Z florilege quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
2018-10-05T00:37:09Z florilege joined #scheme
2018-10-05T00:46:18Z JanCMJ joined #scheme
2018-10-05T00:56:17Z klovett_ joined #scheme
2018-10-05T00:56:22Z JanCMJ quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2018-10-05T00:59:48Z klovett quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2018-10-05T01:02:33Z r1b quit (Quit: r1b)
2018-10-05T01:19:30Z jcowan quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)
2018-10-05T01:40:01Z Zipheir: rudybot: Always replace your failures with lists of successes.
2018-10-05T01:40:07Z rudybot: Zipheir: I was changing some error checks from a sequence of failures to a nest of successes.  So I'm adding and removing a bunch of braces.
2018-10-05T01:45:40Z ski: hm, wasn't there some macro where `(nest (foo bar baz) body ...)' expanded to `(foo (bar (baz body ...)))' ? (probably not called `nest')
2018-10-05T01:47:28Z Zipheir: ski: --> https://fare.livejournal.com/189741.html
2018-10-05T01:47:53Z Zipheir: ski: Very similar to what you have there.
2018-10-05T01:48:38Z ski: yea, that may very well be what i vague rememeber reading
2018-10-05T01:48:40Z ski: ty
2018-10-05T01:53:02Z Zipheir: I think I read that post a long time ago when I was a total Lisp newb and was looking for a way to avoid 'horizontal creep'.
2018-10-05T01:53:28Z Zipheir: I still think it's a really weird macro.
2018-10-05T01:58:46Z hoh joined #scheme
2018-10-05T02:00:44Z ski: yea, in that you have partial snippets of other forms inside it
2018-10-05T02:00:58Z robotoad quit (Quit: robotoad)
2018-10-05T02:01:49Z proteusguy joined #scheme
2018-10-05T02:03:10Z ski: i wonder to which extent it would be possible to use `let-values*' together with del. cont., instead
2018-10-05T02:03:20Z Zipheir: I guess you have to read it like do notation.
2018-10-05T02:04:32Z aeth: imo the correct way to avoid that sort of thing is to write lots of trivial macros and trivial functions
2018-10-05T02:05:10Z ski: just break it down into smaller pieces ?
2018-10-05T02:05:12Z klovett joined #scheme
2018-10-05T02:05:18Z aeth: (define (foo* foobar) (foo (foobar->barfoo foobar)))
2018-10-05T02:05:29Z aeth: Instead of reaching for something like compose
2018-10-05T02:05:29Z Zipheir: aeth: Indeed. Quoth Linus, "if your function needs more than 3 levels of indentation, you're screwed anyway and should fix your code."
2018-10-05T02:06:00Z ski: rudybot: eval ((compose values values) 0 1)
2018-10-05T02:06:01Z rudybot: ski: ; Value: 0
2018-10-05T02:06:02Z rudybot: ski: ; Value#2: 1
2018-10-05T02:06:10Z Zipheir: aeth: (quote refers to C, YMMV in our world :))
2018-10-05T02:06:21Z aeth: Zipheir: same thing just with 7-8 ;-p
2018-10-05T02:06:40Z aeth: just try to write Lisp with a line count limit < 100. I dare you.
2018-10-05T02:07:05Z aeth: (any Lisp... the conventions that lead to long names and long lines are shared in all of them)
2018-10-05T02:07:10Z ski tries to keep code under 80, usually under 74
2018-10-05T02:07:22Z jcowan joined #scheme
2018-10-05T02:07:59Z aeth: ski: works a lot better in C when you have strlen not string-length
2018-10-05T02:08:21Z Zipheir: Yeah, 80 columns is the law.
2018-10-05T02:08:23Z klovett_ quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2018-10-05T02:09:07Z ski idly wonders whether any monadic reflection (a la Filinski, using del. cont.) is considered for inclusion for monadic (and idiomatic/applicative) support in Scheme
2018-10-05T02:09:13Z aeth: Zipheir: you have to keep compatibility with the punched cards
2018-10-05T02:10:07Z aeth: Zipheir: I'd say the equivalent in a Lisp isn't "levels of indentation" it's "amount of )s"
2018-10-05T02:10:20Z aeth: if you have )))))))))))) you should start considering a refactor
2018-10-05T02:10:33Z Zipheir: aeth: Yes.
2018-10-05T02:11:07Z aeth: It's a good hint that there's lots of nested scopes/etc. that could be turned into functions, or at least internal functions at the top of the current one
2018-10-05T02:11:08Z robotoad joined #scheme
2018-10-05T02:11:20Z ski: (hrm, now i recall reading a paper which talked about more efficient monadic computations in Scheme, using a variant of `define' to define actions .. can't recall what the title or author(s) was, though)
2018-10-05T02:11:41Z Zipheir: aeth: Also, IME, functions with lots of widely-spaced lines that are part of the same form, like ifs that stretch across screen.
2018-10-05T02:11:43Z hoh quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2018-10-05T02:11:59Z Zipheir: *across the screen
2018-10-05T02:12:26Z proteusguy quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
2018-10-05T02:12:33Z Zipheir: ski: That's very interesting, please share if you have a link.
2018-10-05T02:16:38Z ski: which ? monadic reflection ? or the latter ?
2018-10-05T02:17:00Z aeth: Zipheir: and, similarly, ime composition is usually hiding functions. (a (b (c (d (e (f (g 42))))))) would be a mess with full-length names, but it probably should become something like (abc (de (fg 42)))
2018-10-05T02:17:14Z Zipheir: ski: Oh, I missed the line about reflection.
2018-10-05T02:17:29Z Zipheir: ski: Both interesting subjects, to be sure.
2018-10-05T02:17:39Z aeth: (you probably will even use those somewhere else and didn't even realize it)
2018-10-05T02:18:09Z ski: aeth : sometimes you want to have a list of functions (transformation passes), one on each line, so that you can more easily add / remove (or comment out) / exchange them
2018-10-05T02:18:14Z Zipheir: aeth: What do you mean by 'hiding functions'?
2018-10-05T02:20:23Z aeth: Zipheir: When you refactor (a (b (c 42))) into (abc 42) you'll probably find out that you use that pattern elsewhere, or even that you *should* be using it elsewhere when you're using (a (b 42))
2018-10-05T02:20:45Z ski: Zipheir : see "Representing Monads" in 1994-01 (and "Representing Layered Monads" in 1999-01) by Andrzej Filinski at <http://hjemmesider.diku.dk/~andrzej/papers/> -- the basic idea is that for any monad (say a parsing monad, e.g.) which you can implement computationally, del. cont.s (or ordinary cont.s, together with a mutable state cell) gives you a way to automatically turn it into a side-effect, that looks like other side-effects
2018-10-05T02:21:20Z aeth: Zipheir: it's an abstraction that was compltely hidden when you're overcomposing.
2018-10-05T02:21:27Z Zipheir: ski: Cool, ty!
2018-10-05T02:21:28Z ski: (iirc those papers uses SML/NJ (which has continuations) in the implementation)
2018-10-05T02:22:11Z ski: Zipheir : as i lamented, i'm not sure where i read about the other thing (i suspect it was a paper i came across on LtU)
2018-10-05T02:22:38Z Zipheir: aeth: It's sort of a non-issue, since function abstraction is really cheap.
2018-10-05T02:23:20Z aeth: Zipheir: well I mean you're probably going to just (define (abc x) (a (b (c x))))
2018-10-05T02:23:33Z aeth: but it does change how you read your program
2018-10-05T02:23:41Z Zipheir: aeth: Right.
2018-10-05T02:23:45Z ski: aeth : so you wouldn't say that writing it explicitly with `compose' could make it more likely to spot the repeated pattern ?
2018-10-05T02:24:02Z Zipheir: aeth: Taking that literally, I'm now thinking of a function called foldmapiota
2018-10-05T02:24:42Z aeth: Zipheir: the best part is, if you use that a lot you could (probably) reimplement it more efficiently than the naive way
2018-10-05T02:25:05Z saki joined #scheme
2018-10-05T02:25:14Z saki quit (Excess Flood)
2018-10-05T02:25:55Z aeth: ski: Pattern spotting is probably all about what you're used to doing
2018-10-05T02:26:10Z ski: ok
2018-10-05T02:27:20Z jcowan quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)
2018-10-05T02:29:19Z aeth: ski: but something like (compose foobar foo bar baz qux quux quuz xyzzy) probably makes things too easy imo
2018-10-05T02:30:01Z aeth: If I see something short like ((compose foobar foo bar baz qux quux quuz xyzzy) 42) I probably won't consider it for refactoring
2018-10-05T02:30:47Z Zipheir: An 8-part composition is short?
2018-10-05T02:31:10Z aeth: Zipheir: My point is, it doesn't visually show up as complicated as it actually is!
2018-10-05T02:32:10Z saki joined #scheme
2018-10-05T02:32:10Z aeth: (I'm probably too tired to word things properly.)
2018-10-05T02:32:14Z saki quit (Excess Flood)
2018-10-05T02:32:25Z Zipheir: aeth: So we should make it harder to read to emphasize how complicated it is??
2018-10-05T02:32:57Z aeth: Zipheir: It's just a drawback of being very functional, that's all
2018-10-05T02:33:16Z aeth: Something like that in C will probably look about as complicated as it runs.
2018-10-05T02:33:53Z Zipheir: Expressivity is the name of the game.
2018-10-05T02:36:17Z Zipheir: There are also some cases where there's no good way to 'chunk' a function like that into larger pieces.
2018-10-05T02:37:35Z Zipheir: If abc, def, bcd, cde, etc. aren't meaningful functions in themselves, a ∘ b ∘ c ∘ d ∘ e ∘ f is probably the best choice.
2018-10-05T02:38:32Z aeth: (∘ a b c d e f)
2018-10-05T02:38:39Z aeth: My notation is better than your notation :-p
2018-10-05T02:38:45Z ski smiles
2018-10-05T02:39:28Z Zipheir: It's certainly more concise.
2018-10-05T02:40:27Z huff3rdA joined #scheme
2018-10-05T02:40:36Z aeth: in mathematics, the most concise wins
2018-10-05T02:40:36Z pierpal joined #scheme
2018-10-05T02:41:05Z ski . o O ( monoid as monad acting on carrier )
2018-10-05T02:41:10Z Zipheir: I've never seen variadic compose outside of Lisp.
2018-10-05T02:42:01Z huff3rdA quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2018-10-05T02:43:42Z saki joined #scheme
2018-10-05T02:44:24Z Zipheir: I sometimes worry irrationally that maybe compose in some Schemes is implemented with apply...
2018-10-05T02:45:05Z aeth: don't worry, things are probably less optimized than you think they are
2018-10-05T02:51:30Z ski: (elaborating, i was thinking of `(apply compose (apply append lsts))' being equal to `(apply compose (map (lambda (lst) (apply compose lst)) lsts)))', together with `(apply compose (list fun))' being equal to `fun'. if you squint, this is like a "monoid" (the list monad) acting on a set of functions ..
2018-10-05T02:51:42Z ski:  .. point being that if you want to factor out part of `(compose f g h i j)', you first (at least conceptually) need to refactor it to `(compose f g (compose h i) j)' before you can fold the `h'-following-`i' into its own definition)
2018-10-05T02:53:51Z ski: (.. while the associative infix notation automatically suggests that, without that refactoring step)
2018-10-05T02:54:37Z Zipheir: ski: I think I understand your point.
2018-10-05T02:55:17Z Zipheir: ski: Yes, the prefix version sort of obscures the associativity.
2018-10-05T02:55:34Z ski: it's a minor point, still
2018-10-05T02:56:16Z jcowan joined #scheme
2018-10-05T02:56:18Z pjb quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2018-10-05T02:57:48Z Zipheir: ski: (compose f g h i) makes me think (foldr1 compose (list f g h i)), not f following g following ...
2018-10-05T03:00:28Z jao quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2018-10-05T03:01:20Z Zipheir: Well, foldl1, since composition is usually left-associative.
2018-10-05T03:04:35Z ski . o O ( <https://srfi.schemers.org/srfi-1/srfi-1.html#reduce> )
2018-10-05T03:06:29Z Zipheir: Do people use reduce?
2018-10-05T03:07:21Z Zipheir: I certainly intend to when we get our Monoid SRFI :)
2018-10-05T03:10:46Z jcowan quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)
2018-10-05T03:20:38Z Zipheir: "You typically use reduce when applying f is expensive and you'd like to avoid the extra application incurred when fold applies f to the head of list..."
2018-10-05T03:21:13Z linack joined #scheme
2018-10-05T03:22:24Z Zipheir: Sort of a limited use case.
2018-10-05T03:34:47Z nisstyre: Zipheir: I only ever use foldl
2018-10-05T03:35:02Z nisstyre: if there were a function that is generic for monoids in Racket I would probably use it
2018-10-05T03:35:05Z nisstyre: like mconcat
2018-10-05T03:35:43Z Zipheir: Right, Scheme could use an mconcat.
2018-10-05T03:37:04Z nisstyre: also yeah I meant to say Scheme not just Racket
2018-10-05T03:42:16Z klovett quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2018-10-05T03:43:06Z klovett joined #scheme
2018-10-05T03:52:28Z saki quit (Quit: saki)
2018-10-05T04:02:32Z hugh_marera quit (Quit: hugh_marera)
2018-10-05T04:28:00Z klovett quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2018-10-05T04:28:19Z klovett joined #scheme
2018-10-05T04:30:38Z TGO joined #scheme
2018-10-05T04:32:58Z weinholt quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2018-10-05T04:34:18Z TheGreekOwl quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2018-10-05T04:44:55Z klovett quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2018-10-05T04:45:53Z klovett joined #scheme
2018-10-05T04:52:08Z yumh quit (*.net *.split)
2018-10-05T04:52:08Z ozzloy quit (*.net *.split)
2018-10-05T04:52:08Z Kkiro_ quit (*.net *.split)
2018-10-05T04:54:39Z catern quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2018-10-05T04:55:21Z linack quit (Quit: Leaving)
2018-10-05T04:57:09Z yumh joined #scheme
2018-10-05T04:57:09Z ozzloy joined #scheme
2018-10-05T04:57:09Z Kkiro_ joined #scheme
2018-10-05T04:59:02Z catern joined #scheme
2018-10-05T05:02:05Z weinholt joined #scheme
2018-10-05T05:05:15Z TGO quit (Quit: I must go, my planet needs me.)
2018-10-05T05:05:41Z TheGreekOwl joined #scheme
2018-10-05T05:23:08Z ale_ quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
2018-10-05T06:01:45Z florilege quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2018-10-05T06:06:55Z mange quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
2018-10-05T06:24:53Z divVerentbu joined #scheme
2018-10-05T06:29:01Z divVerentbu quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2018-10-05T06:43:46Z ggole joined #scheme
2018-10-05T06:47:00Z amz3 quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
2018-10-05T07:06:52Z webshinra joined #scheme
2018-10-05T07:11:16Z ggole quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2018-10-05T07:12:11Z ggole joined #scheme
2018-10-05T07:14:09Z robotoad quit (Quit: robotoad)
2018-10-05T07:27:52Z oatsfI joined #scheme
2018-10-05T07:32:50Z pierpal quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2018-10-05T07:32:50Z oatsfI quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2018-10-05T07:33:48Z razzy: Zipheir: i have not found a way to remove posibility of failures or need for failures. so, next best thing is efective way to dealing with them. keeping your data clean and maintainable is good thing
2018-10-05T07:36:05Z robotoad joined #scheme
2018-10-05T07:36:49Z aeth quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2018-10-05T07:37:21Z pierpal joined #scheme
2018-10-05T07:37:27Z aeth joined #scheme
2018-10-05T07:48:10Z civodul joined #scheme
2018-10-05T07:58:39Z TheGreekOwl quit (Quit: I must go, my planet needs me.)
2018-10-05T08:04:22Z robotoad quit (Quit: robotoad)
2018-10-05T08:11:17Z saki joined #scheme
2018-10-05T08:11:29Z saki quit (Excess Flood)
2018-10-05T08:27:41Z saki joined #scheme
2018-10-05T08:34:17Z saki quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2018-10-05T08:36:40Z saki joined #scheme
2018-10-05T08:36:42Z saki quit (Client Quit)
2018-10-05T08:55:25Z quipa joined #scheme
2018-10-05T08:57:01Z quipa_ joined #scheme
2018-10-05T08:57:50Z spill joined #scheme
2018-10-05T08:59:41Z greatscottttt joined #scheme
2018-10-05T09:00:12Z quipa quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
2018-10-05T09:03:13Z refrainblue joined #scheme
2018-10-05T09:07:06Z spill quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2018-10-05T09:08:00Z refrainblue quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2018-10-05T09:10:32Z CoconutCrab quit (Quit: leaving)
2018-10-05T09:42:57Z wigust- joined #scheme
2018-10-05T09:45:12Z wigust quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2018-10-05T09:49:27Z pierpal quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2018-10-05T09:49:32Z razzy quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
2018-10-05T09:55:07Z jao joined #scheme
2018-10-05T09:55:42Z CoconutCrab joined #scheme
2018-10-05T10:02:08Z jim quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2018-10-05T10:04:51Z defanor quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2018-10-05T10:05:54Z defanor joined #scheme
2018-10-05T10:17:10Z jim joined #scheme
2018-10-05T10:28:42Z InverseRhombus joined #scheme
2018-10-05T10:30:57Z mange joined #scheme
2018-10-05T10:35:11Z nullcone quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity)
2018-10-05T10:40:43Z razzy joined #scheme
2018-10-05T10:46:52Z segfault_ joined #scheme
2018-10-05T10:48:04Z flerovite quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
2018-10-05T10:49:41Z razzy: anyone have clue how to list all top lvl accesible functions in scheme?
2018-10-05T10:50:13Z wasamasa: it's implementation specific
2018-10-05T10:59:06Z jcowan joined #scheme
2018-10-05T11:10:34Z lritter joined #scheme
2018-10-05T11:16:49Z ale_ joined #scheme
2018-10-05T11:19:00Z mejja joined #scheme
2018-10-05T11:19:04Z mrallweatherDu joined #scheme
2018-10-05T11:23:43Z mrallweatherDu quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2018-10-05T11:27:39Z pierpal joined #scheme
2018-10-05T11:41:24Z jcowan quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)
2018-10-05T11:44:48Z muelleme joined #scheme
2018-10-05T11:45:45Z jcowan joined #scheme
2018-10-05T11:50:01Z muelleme quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2018-10-05T11:50:21Z jcowan quit (Client Quit)
2018-10-05T11:54:16Z florilege joined #scheme
2018-10-05T11:57:09Z jcowan joined #scheme
2018-10-05T12:00:29Z siraben joined #scheme
2018-10-05T12:01:15Z jcowan quit (Client Quit)
2018-10-05T12:09:50Z jcowan joined #scheme
2018-10-05T12:15:03Z jcowan quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)
2018-10-05T12:25:55Z elderK quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity)
2018-10-05T12:26:57Z ivanshmakov quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2018-10-05T12:27:46Z BCBot_ joined #scheme
2018-10-05T12:28:34Z LarakY joined #scheme
2018-10-05T12:29:53Z LarakY quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2018-10-05T12:30:41Z BCBot_ quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2018-10-05T12:41:04Z razzy: wasamasa: mit-scheme?
2018-10-05T12:41:14Z razzy: not very specific imho
2018-10-05T12:46:48Z muelleme joined #scheme
2018-10-05T12:52:02Z muelleme quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2018-10-05T12:56:54Z klovett quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2018-10-05T12:57:39Z klovett joined #scheme
2018-10-05T13:23:10Z klovett_ joined #scheme
2018-10-05T13:25:51Z charh joined #scheme
2018-10-05T13:26:21Z klovett quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2018-10-05T13:32:33Z levifigjE joined #scheme
2018-10-05T13:34:40Z levifigjE quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2018-10-05T13:39:23Z saki joined #scheme
2018-10-05T13:39:32Z jao quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2018-10-05T13:39:34Z saki quit (Excess Flood)
2018-10-05T13:49:27Z saki joined #scheme
2018-10-05T13:49:32Z saki quit (Excess Flood)
2018-10-05T13:50:11Z RichardShadark joined #scheme
2018-10-05T13:53:14Z codehotter joined #scheme
2018-10-05T13:54:12Z khisanth_ quit (Quit: Leaving)
2018-10-05T13:54:42Z Khisanth joined #scheme
2018-10-05T13:59:15Z codehotter quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2018-10-05T14:12:21Z mange quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2018-10-05T14:15:23Z daviid joined #scheme
2018-10-05T14:20:25Z klovett joined #scheme
2018-10-05T14:23:52Z klovett_ quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2018-10-05T14:25:50Z saki joined #scheme
2018-10-05T14:33:37Z mejja: razzy: try (apropos "") or (pp (environment-bound-names #f))
2018-10-05T14:35:19Z ivanshmakov joined #scheme
2018-10-05T14:38:01Z jao joined #scheme
2018-10-05T15:17:50Z robotoad joined #scheme
2018-10-05T15:18:23Z smazga joined #scheme
2018-10-05T15:23:41Z Lavos joined #scheme
2018-10-05T15:29:04Z greatscottttt quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.9)
2018-10-05T15:32:28Z niklasl2 quit (Quit: Nettalk6 - www.ntalk.de)
2018-10-05T15:32:49Z niklasl joined #scheme
2018-10-05T15:41:26Z va7lnxbI joined #scheme
2018-10-05T15:47:22Z va7lnxbI quit (K-Lined)
2018-10-05T15:54:16Z dieggsy: what's the fastest way to multiply each element of a list by an increasing number (e.g. its index) and preserve order? i tried a tail recursive function with a reverse at the end. I also tried a less functional approach in which you map some f to the list, where f keeps track of the multiplier in it's closure and set!s it to a bigger number every time. this was faster
2018-10-05T15:54:42Z mhd2018 joined #scheme
2018-10-05T15:55:24Z dieggsy: is that as good as it gets, or is there something even awesomer i'm missing
2018-10-05T15:55:57Z nullcone joined #scheme
2018-10-05T15:57:17Z Zipheir: dieggsy: Tail recursion followed by reverse often defeats the point. I doubt you're going to get anything much faster than a simple recursion.
2018-10-05T15:57:44Z dieggsy: Zipheir: like a regular (let loop () .. (cons ... (loop ...))) ?
2018-10-05T15:58:06Z dieggsy: i have a tendeny to want to avoid those because they're not TCO-able, but maybe that's a dumb premature optimization
2018-10-05T15:58:15Z dieggsy: tendency*
2018-10-05T15:59:56Z Zipheir: dieggsy: (define (loop seed lst) ... (cons val (loop (next-seed seed) (cdr lst)))), something like that.
2018-10-05T16:00:23Z dieggsy: right
2018-10-05T16:00:24Z Zipheir: dieggsy: TCO isn't the holy grail for list processing.
2018-10-05T16:00:57Z dieggsy: Zipheir: fair, heh. can you elaborate on that for more naive minds?
2018-10-05T16:03:32Z Zipheir: dieggsy: Long story short, converting recursion to tail recursion + reverse isn't good.
2018-10-05T16:04:12Z jcowan joined #scheme
2018-10-05T16:04:28Z Zipheir: dieggsy: Depending on implementation, this might move a lot of cells to the heap that would otherwise just be kept in stack space.
2018-10-05T16:05:38Z jcowan quit (Client Quit)
2018-10-05T16:05:50Z dieggsy: huh, with unrigorous benchmarks on chicken scheme, the map option i described seems to be faster for huge lists. this is probably _heavily_ implementation specific i suppose
2018-10-05T16:06:11Z dieggsy: than the "regular" recursion i mean
2018-10-05T16:07:03Z RichardShadark quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2018-10-05T16:07:06Z Lavos quit (Quit: Leaving)
2018-10-05T16:07:42Z Zipheir: SRFI-1 provides append-reverse(!) also, but explicitly warns that iteration+(append-)reverse is probably bad https://srfi.schemers.org/srfi-1/srfi-1.html#Miscellaneous
2018-10-05T16:10:47Z lritter quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2018-10-05T16:12:29Z civodul quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 26.1))
2018-10-05T16:14:06Z rain2: you could use a loop macro
2018-10-05T16:14:58Z dieggsy: wat
2018-10-05T16:15:18Z mhd2018 quit (Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com)
2018-10-05T16:15:32Z Zipheir: That's just to expand to a recursion or tail recursion.
2018-10-05T16:15:46Z dieggsy: exactly
2018-10-05T16:16:12Z mhd2018 joined #scheme
2018-10-05T16:16:42Z dieggsy: i suppose if you needed to operate on one specific list _only_ your macro could give you compile time evaluation for faster runtime, or something, but i'm writing a function not evaling one thing
2018-10-05T16:16:47Z jayemar joined #scheme
2018-10-05T16:19:46Z quipa_ is now known as quipa
2018-10-05T16:19:48Z Zipheir: dieggsy: Using csi and the list generated by (iota 100000), the closure-counter loop is significantly less efficient than the simple recursion (10.46 vs 4.06 MiB heap)
2018-10-05T16:21:27Z Zipheir: dieggsy: The recursion uses more GCs, but is also faster: 0.13s CPU time, 0.056s GC time, vs 0.078s CPU time, 0.026s GC time for the closure version.
2018-10-05T16:21:57Z Zipheir: dieggsy: Oops, missed a point of precision there :)
2018-10-05T16:22:20Z dieggsy: what's iota? and huh... i tested on a 10000000 list i think, and got like 12 seconds for simple recursion and 3 for the closure-counter loop
2018-10-05T16:22:53Z dieggsy: i'm also using chicken 5 but... i doubt that would cause that much change in the interpreter
2018-10-05T16:23:42Z Zipheir: OK, there's not too much of a difference in time with CHICKEN 4, but the space savings with recursion are _significant_.
2018-10-05T16:24:07Z Zipheir: dieggsy: See iota under https://wiki.call-cc.org/eggref/5/srfi-1#constructors
2018-10-05T16:24:31Z dieggsy: oh, ok. i was using make-list, also from srfi-1
2018-10-05T16:24:49Z Zipheir: But yeah, the closure version seems to use on the order of 2x the heap space.
2018-10-05T16:25:19Z wasamasa: not all compilers have learned to eliminate unnecessary closures
2018-10-05T16:26:38Z dieggsy: atm i haven't been compiling at all
2018-10-05T16:26:49Z jcowan joined #scheme
2018-10-05T16:29:45Z dieggsy: Zipheir: fwiw, i'm using this to get the constants for the next derivative of a polynomial, given a list of constants - here's my implementations https://gitlab.com/snippets/1760379
2018-10-05T16:30:33Z dieggsy: the heap difference for running each on (make-list 100000 1) is like 2MiB, and the timing is .076s for the closure-counter, .129 for simple recursion
2018-10-05T16:30:44Z cjwelbornYG joined #scheme
2018-10-05T16:31:34Z dieggsy: huh, actually, my tests suck i think
2018-10-05T16:32:53Z cjwelbornYG quit (K-Lined)
2018-10-05T16:34:51Z Zipheir: dieggsy: I just ran your code with ,t on (iota 1000000) in csi, closure version still uses about twice the heap.
2018-10-05T16:36:26Z dieggsy: ...maybe chicken 5 is making a difference.
2018-10-05T16:36:41Z Zipheir: Could be!
2018-10-05T16:36:48Z dieggsy: odd though
2018-10-05T16:37:46Z vyzo: just for reference, next-deriv is 2x faster then next-deriv* in gerbil
2018-10-05T16:37:57Z vyzo: with (iota 1000000)
2018-10-05T16:38:58Z Zipheir: It's a little faster in CHICKEN, but not by much.
2018-10-05T16:39:28Z vyzo: actually, it's 4x faster if I take the iota out of the timing
2018-10-05T16:39:28Z dieggsy: i'm gonna try compiling this in chicken, cause this module's gonna get compiled eventually anyway, and maybe that'll change things :) I really appreciate the pointers and tests, thanks!
2018-10-05T16:39:43Z klovett quit
2018-10-05T16:39:50Z vyzo: 298ms -vs 887ms
2018-10-05T16:39:52Z vyzo: 3x faster
2018-10-05T16:40:00Z vyzo: on interpreter with my slowpoke laptop
2018-10-05T16:40:50Z Zipheir: Wow
2018-10-05T16:43:13Z Zipheir: vyzo: What's the memory usage like?
2018-10-05T16:44:04Z vyzo: 64289136 bytes allocated in next-deriv -vs- 317811232 in next-deriv*
2018-10-05T16:44:19Z vyzo: there was no gc in next-deriv, while there was a 195ms gc in next-deriv*
2018-10-05T16:44:53Z Zipheir: TIL, use closures in Gerbil.
2018-10-05T16:45:01Z dieggsy: here's something interesting - in compiled chicken with -O3, the max live heap ends up being exactly the same, and the simple recursion is a bit faster
2018-10-05T16:45:35Z vyzo: let me try compiled to see if the difference is because of the interpreter or something
2018-10-05T16:45:58Z dieggsy: so i suppose there's my answer
2018-10-05T16:47:20Z vyzo: so in compiled code
2018-10-05T16:47:29Z vyzo: iterative takes 31ms -vs 139ms in compiled
2018-10-05T16:48:57Z vyzo: oh wait
2018-10-05T16:49:04Z vyzo: next-deriv* is the recursive version!
2018-10-05T16:49:08Z vyzo: so it's reversed in compiled
2018-10-05T16:49:18Z dieggsy: yeah, i probably named them backwards
2018-10-05T16:49:34Z vyzo: right the interesting part is that in compiled code the recursion is 4x faster
2018-10-05T16:49:41Z vyzo: in interpreted code it's 3x slower
2018-10-05T16:49:42Z Zipheir: The recursive version is nearly twice as fast when compiled with CHICKEN 4.
2018-10-05T16:50:02Z dieggsy: yeah i'm seeing the same thing  - recursive faster when compiled, slower when interpreted
2018-10-05T16:50:16Z dieggsy: ...might have something to do with what wasamasa was pointing out
2018-10-05T16:51:30Z dieggsy: ........in the end of course, this isn't even a performance critical part of my program - who's gonna want to evaluate >thousand term polynomials. and if they do, they can certainly wait a couple seconds. but i was curious anyway
2018-10-05T16:51:49Z wasamasa: possibly
2018-10-05T16:52:07Z wasamasa: the only thing I learned is that people tend to be wrong with their intuition when it comes to performance
2018-10-05T16:52:16Z dieggsy: heh
2018-10-05T16:52:50Z wasamasa: then there are some funny phrases about improving performance, but I doubt they actually help
2018-10-05T16:53:01Z vyzo: that's why there is a profiler in gerbil :)
2018-10-05T16:53:02Z Zipheir: dieggsy: It's a really interesting performance question, though.
2018-10-05T16:53:15Z wasamasa: CHICKEN has two, so that's not the issue
2018-10-05T16:53:29Z dieggsy: Zipheir: true
2018-10-05T16:53:29Z vyzo: point is that yeah, intuition is most of the times wrong
2018-10-05T16:53:31Z vyzo: so profile!
2018-10-05T16:53:41Z Zipheir: vyzo++
2018-10-05T16:54:54Z qu1j0t3: ^
2018-10-05T16:59:41Z nick8325 joined #scheme
2018-10-05T17:02:27Z erkin joined #scheme
2018-10-05T17:23:23Z saki quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2018-10-05T17:25:27Z hugh_marera joined #scheme
2018-10-05T17:27:18Z saki joined #scheme
2018-10-05T17:32:37Z muelleme joined #scheme
2018-10-05T17:37:08Z muelleme quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2018-10-05T17:40:35Z reed joined #scheme
2018-10-05T17:43:03Z muelleme joined #scheme
2018-10-05T17:43:33Z reed quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2018-10-05T17:43:45Z hugh_marera quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2018-10-05T17:43:52Z cmaloney quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2018-10-05T17:44:56Z klovett joined #scheme
2018-10-05T17:48:02Z slobberwb joined #scheme
2018-10-05T17:48:49Z slobberwb quit (K-Lined)
2018-10-05T17:51:13Z hugh_marera joined #scheme
2018-10-05T17:54:31Z cmaloney joined #scheme
2018-10-05T17:55:33Z alezost joined #scheme
2018-10-05T17:58:34Z muelleme quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2018-10-05T18:01:39Z pierpal quit (Quit: Poof)
2018-10-05T18:01:56Z pierpal joined #scheme
2018-10-05T18:02:32Z hugh_marera quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2018-10-05T18:03:20Z RichardShadark joined #scheme
2018-10-05T18:10:11Z hugh_marera joined #scheme
2018-10-05T18:15:34Z ggole quit (Quit: ggole)
2018-10-05T18:17:00Z RichardShadark quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2018-10-05T18:17:14Z muelleme joined #scheme
2018-10-05T18:34:16Z muelleme quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2018-10-05T18:34:21Z florilege quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2018-10-05T18:34:29Z saki quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2018-10-05T18:34:46Z saki joined #scheme
2018-10-05T18:46:11Z TheGreekOwl joined #scheme
2018-10-05T18:51:33Z RichardShadark joined #scheme
2018-10-05T18:53:26Z pierpal quit (Quit: Poof)
2018-10-05T18:53:43Z pierpal joined #scheme
2018-10-05T18:53:57Z flerovite joined #scheme
2018-10-05T18:55:34Z segfault_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2018-10-05T18:56:05Z muelleme joined #scheme
2018-10-05T19:04:49Z florilege joined #scheme
2018-10-05T19:11:19Z jayemar quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2018-10-05T19:21:36Z RichardShadark quit (Quit: Bye)
2018-10-05T19:24:02Z klovett_ joined #scheme
2018-10-05T19:26:44Z klovett quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
2018-10-05T19:29:04Z muelleme quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2018-10-05T19:36:59Z RichardShadark joined #scheme
2018-10-05T19:38:11Z civodul joined #scheme
2018-10-05T19:38:14Z mejja quit (Quit: mejja)
2018-10-05T19:40:54Z hugh_marera quit (Quit: hugh_marera)
2018-10-05T19:45:32Z xvx joined #scheme
2018-10-05T19:45:32Z pierpal quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2018-10-05T19:45:46Z pierpal joined #scheme
2018-10-05T19:45:51Z ale_ quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2018-10-05T19:47:51Z lavaflow quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2018-10-05T19:47:57Z lavaflow_ joined #scheme
2018-10-05T19:52:07Z Zipheir quit (Quit: leaving)
2018-10-05T20:05:28Z quipa quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2018-10-05T20:07:57Z jcowan: I have an upper bound for the size of a (hypothetical) printed R7RS-large.
2018-10-05T20:08:01Z jcowan: It is very, very large.
2018-10-05T20:10:31Z jcowan: About 5000 standard (roughly A4) pages.
2018-10-05T20:10:35Z jcowan: Yeesh.
2018-10-05T20:10:59Z qu1j0t3: all the scheme memes will have to be updated
2018-10-05T20:11:15Z jcowan: More than 4 times the size of ANSI CL, although it will include a lot of rationale that CL doesn't
2018-10-05T20:11:44Z jcowan: "Get procedures right.  Get macros right.  The rest is just the library."  --Will Clinger
2018-10-05T20:11:49Z jcowan: and that's all this is, the library
2018-10-05T20:12:34Z qu1j0t3: just use one page with a URL
2018-10-05T20:14:59Z jcowan: wait, wait, come back, it's only 2200 pages
2018-10-05T20:15:02Z jcowan: twice the size of CL
2018-10-05T20:16:10Z rain2: can it be provided as source code?
2018-10-05T20:16:30Z jcowan: Yes, although some docket items are inherently not portable
2018-10-05T20:16:37Z jcowan: sockets, e.g.
2018-10-05T20:17:08Z jcowan: There are about 190 docket items, each of which will be expressed as a SRFI, and the mean size of a SRFI is 13 pages (though SRFI 110 is a 54-page monster)
2018-10-05T20:17:18Z jcowan: so yeah, 2470 pages.
2018-10-05T20:17:29Z jcowan: Of course, some docket items will probably be voted down
2018-10-05T20:17:45Z vyzo: and then the commn lispers make fun of schemers...
2018-10-05T20:18:36Z jcowan: Of course, that will only bring us up to about the year 1993
2018-10-05T20:18:52Z jcowan: no web libraries, in particular
2018-10-05T20:19:47Z jcowan: but that's better than 1985 (R2RS)
2018-10-05T20:20:02Z jcowan: and of course in some ways we are still beyond the state of the art, notably macros, though a few langs are catching up
2018-10-05T20:20:18Z mhd2018 quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2018-10-05T20:24:21Z jcowan: What I am quite proud of is that there are only five docket items that don't at least have a sketch of what procedures they expose
2018-10-05T20:24:37Z jcowan: well, six, memoization is just notes, not a proposal
2018-10-05T20:25:05Z jcowan: message digests, monad/monoid, reading filesystem directories, delimited continuations, and macro expansion at run time
2018-10-05T20:27:44Z jcowan: and only a few things have been ruled out by chair fiat:
2018-10-05T20:29:34Z jcowan: classes (but generic functions are in), record inheritance, and FFI
2018-10-05T20:29:46Z jcowan: I'll at least entertain proposals for anything else
2018-10-05T20:30:59Z rain2: the thing i really want is to not have to indent all the code in a library
2018-10-05T20:31:02Z aeth: I have r7rs-small in a binder
2018-10-05T20:31:09Z aeth: how big of a binder would I need for r7rs-large?
2018-10-05T20:32:54Z nick8325 quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2018-10-05T20:34:25Z nick8325 joined #scheme
2018-10-05T20:34:25Z nick8325 quit (Client Quit)
2018-10-05T20:34:43Z nick8325 joined #scheme
2018-10-05T20:37:05Z jcowan: rain2: I normally don't indent it
2018-10-05T20:37:56Z rain2: all the definitions in a librayr having a bracket around it is a problem
2018-10-05T20:40:29Z jcowan: Only if you insist on automatic indenting.  A smarter indenter wouldn't indent the contents of a bracket that is the whole file.
2018-10-05T20:40:51Z jcowan: aeth: The pile of standard copier paper would be about 24 cm high
2018-10-05T20:41:53Z rain2: you cant just sweep problems away into tooling
2018-10-05T20:43:56Z jcowan: Why not?  Java does.  :-)
2018-10-05T20:44:24Z jcowan: I mostly indent by hand, and I simply don't indent the contents of a define-library form
2018-10-05T20:45:11Z jcowan: "I've heard people say unhygienic insertion can give you AIDS."  --Al* Petrofsky, talking about syntax proposals
2018-10-05T20:46:17Z aeth: I would assume that the vast majority of s-expression programmers are probably using GNU Emacs with Paredit
2018-10-05T20:46:41Z rain2: apparently we all need to indent by hand because jcowan does
2018-10-05T20:46:50Z jcowan shrugs
2018-10-05T20:47:00Z jcowan: Or change Emac's sacred indentation algorithm, one or the other
2018-10-05T20:47:53Z jcowan: It is written in Lisp, after all.
2018-10-05T20:51:15Z quipa joined #scheme
2018-10-05T20:58:06Z jcowan: aeth: I believe that the largest standard binding machines can bind books up to 10 cm in thickness, but of course such monsters usually use much thinner Bible-type paper
2018-10-05T20:58:29Z alezost quit (Quit: I live in GuixSD <http://www.gnu.org/s/guix> and Emacs <http://www.gnu.org/s/emacs>)
2018-10-05T20:58:33Z RichardShadark quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2018-10-05T20:59:03Z aeth: jcowan: I haven't really printed anything large in a long time but I think the standard trick here is to print 4 pages to a page, so it would be 8 pages front and back, so divide by 8
2018-10-05T20:59:16Z jcowan nods
2018-10-05T20:59:38Z jcowan: I would need a magnifying glass
2018-10-05T20:59:51Z jcowan: But yes, I haven't been allowing for two-sided printing
2018-10-05T20:59:53Z jcowan: so 12 cm high
2018-10-05T21:00:59Z aeth: 2 pages to a page could work, too, but then you'd have to have it landscape
2018-10-05T21:18:08Z Deathrattle joined #scheme
2018-10-05T21:23:35Z Deathrattle quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2018-10-05T21:27:19Z fmnt joined #scheme
2018-10-05T21:27:19Z fmnt quit (Changing host)
2018-10-05T21:27:19Z fmnt joined #scheme
2018-10-05T21:30:55Z ski: i suppose one could allow putting the library form in a different file, with some kind of file inclusion mechanism
2018-10-05T21:31:07Z ski str Scheme48 had that ?
2018-10-05T21:32:59Z aeth: file inclusion so basically C macros? (or reader macros?)
2018-10-05T21:38:17Z jcowan quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)
2018-10-05T21:47:09Z aeth: with the #. reader macro in CL that would be (replacing "path" with the desired file path) #.(with-open-file (file path) (loop :for input := 'progn :then (read file nil :eof) :until (eq input :eof) :collect input))
2018-10-05T21:47:51Z aeth: Doing it in Scheme would be harder because loop ... collect is the most concise way I can think of doing it, but Scheme doesn't have CL's loop
2018-10-05T21:49:15Z aeth: assuming some collect function/macro it would look like `(begin ,(collect ...))
2018-10-05T21:54:00Z civodul quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 26.1))
2018-10-05T21:57:43Z aeth: it seems very ugly and inelegant, though
2018-10-05T21:57:46Z rrsmitto_ joined #scheme
2018-10-05T22:00:01Z mhd2018 joined #scheme
2018-10-05T22:01:28Z rrsmitto1 joined #scheme
2018-10-05T22:01:58Z rrsmitto1 left #scheme
2018-10-05T22:03:31Z erkin quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2018-10-05T22:04:57Z gwatt: ski, aeth: is (include "...") not what you want for file inclusion?
2018-10-05T22:06:51Z aeth: gwatt: that's in r7rs and does exactly that
2018-10-05T22:07:11Z rrsmitto1 joined #scheme
2018-10-05T22:07:20Z rrsmitto1 left #scheme
2018-10-05T22:08:26Z gwatt: aeth: I know, that's why I was confused.
2018-10-05T22:10:32Z aeth: I guess I didn't know it was there because I haven't implemented it yet
2018-10-05T22:12:07Z rrsmitto_ quit (Quit: Page closed)
2018-10-05T22:12:41Z gwatt: Does include qualify as an unhygienic macro?
2018-10-05T22:12:59Z gwatt: That's certainly how it's defined as an example in r6rs
2018-10-05T22:15:16Z gwatt: Oops, I guess include isn't in r6rs. I was looking through CSUG.
2018-10-05T22:15:31Z aeth: I'm not sure why I thought it had to be a reader macro. Maybe because it has a read in it. It doesn't have to be a reader macro. It just has to be a macro.
2018-10-05T22:21:32Z nick8325 quit (Quit: Leaving.)
2018-10-05T22:25:32Z qu1j0t3:  /b 35
2018-10-05T22:27:07Z smazga quit (Quit: leaving)
2018-10-05T22:29:47Z saki quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2018-10-05T22:30:55Z saki joined #scheme
2018-10-05T22:31:40Z quipa_ joined #scheme
2018-10-05T22:32:44Z quipa_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2018-10-05T22:33:50Z quipa quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
2018-10-05T22:33:52Z aeth: is there a way to build a list or would it require manually doing set-cdr! to the stored last pair of a list?
2018-10-05T22:34:27Z wasamasa: I typically use a named let loop and reverse the accumulator
2018-10-05T22:35:00Z wasamasa: you could of course implement a list building data structure, kind of like in picolisp :P
2018-10-05T22:35:02Z aeth: I'd use reverse in Racket with immutable conses. I'd set-cdr! in Scheme.
2018-10-05T22:36:29Z aeth: you can hide it behind a collect macro or procedure
2018-10-05T22:37:48Z aeth: it's just going over a list and set-cdr! on the stored tail with a new pair where the car is the desired thing (reading a form, in this case) until the terminating condition (end of file, in this case)
2018-10-05T22:38:42Z aeth: It's only slightly more complicated and the pattern can be abstracted away, so it's not worth giving up on the efficiency imo
2018-10-05T22:39:00Z DGASAU quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
2018-10-05T22:40:28Z wasamasa: I find the pattern rather cute: https://github.com/kanaka/mal/blob/master/picolisp/core.l#L48-L51
2018-10-05T22:40:34Z wasamasa: you start building a list with make
2018-10-05T22:40:44Z wasamasa: whenever you add an item at the end, use link
2018-10-05T22:41:04Z aeth: I hate that lisp
2018-10-05T22:41:18Z wasamasa: there's more, but I didn't look into the rest
2018-10-05T22:41:23Z aeth: so much looks so wrong with that syntax
2018-10-05T22:41:47Z aeth: the @, the let on one line without the parentheses that would make the one-line lets clearer, "de", capitalization, etc.
2018-10-05T22:42:00Z wasamasa: I tried my best to imitate the idiomatic style
2018-10-05T22:42:16Z wasamasa: there is a rule to the indentation, casing and spacing
2018-10-05T22:42:44Z aeth: oh wow also "))) ) ) )
2018-10-05T22:42:47Z aeth: "
2018-10-05T22:43:19Z aeth: wasamasa: picolisp style rules?
2018-10-05T22:43:23Z wasamasa: yup
2018-10-05T22:43:35Z aeth: whoever wrote those rules hates anyone who has ever written Emacs Lisp, Common Lisp, Scheme, or Racket.
2018-10-05T22:43:47Z wasamasa: sometimes I find it hard to adhere to the (often unwritten) style rules, but I still try to
2018-10-05T22:43:57Z wasamasa: yeah, alex burger doesn't like scheme and CL much
2018-10-05T22:44:04Z wasamasa: dunno what he thinks of elisp and racket
2018-10-05T22:44:26Z DGASAU joined #scheme
2018-10-05T22:45:23Z wasamasa: I find it fascinating when people with strong opinions try writing emacs modes
2018-10-05T22:45:26Z aeth: "prin", "de", etc... this is arc level of unnecessarily short names.
2018-10-05T22:45:50Z aeth: The reason I hate C is because I'd rather type "string-length" or "and" out than save a few characters.
2018-10-05T22:46:02Z wasamasa: lol
2018-10-05T22:46:37Z aeth: when you have short names that aren't words, knowing exactly which short form the author chose is the first thing that goes from your memory when you come back to it after months
2018-10-05T22:48:06Z aeth: I don't care about macros or s-expressions or first class functions or whatever else. The most important thing most Lisps do is having long, hyphenated names. (Why do most languages with long names use camelCase, the worst of the three common forms for long names?)
2018-10-05T22:48:29Z wasamasa: I guess you haven't used clojure yet
2018-10-05T22:49:07Z aeth: looks like it has the same issues, from Wikipedia's code examples. e.g. "dorun"
2018-10-05T22:49:13Z aeth: No reason why it shouldn't be "do-run"
2018-10-05T22:49:29Z aeth: "dolist" in CL doesn't have a hyphen because it's old and backwards compatible, not because there shouldn't be a hyphen
2018-10-05T22:49:55Z wasamasa: the longer a name in clojure is, the less commonly it's used
2018-10-05T22:50:32Z wasamasa: maybe that's why setting *warn-on-reflection* is so unpopular
2018-10-05T22:50:40Z aeth: the only thing I've ever wanted shortened in CL is multiple-value-call
2018-10-05T22:50:53Z wasamasa: what about destructuring-bind?
2018-10-05T22:51:08Z aeth: I don't have a problem with destructuring-bind because it's going to be multi-line anyway
2018-10-05T22:52:00Z aeth: (multiple-value-call #'+ (floor 3 2)) just lengthens one-liners too much.
2018-10-05T22:52:31Z aeth: (and that's just about the shortest thing you can do in m-v-c)
2018-10-05T22:52:45Z kjak: aeth: after glancing at that picolisp file, isn't the "))) ) ) )" thing just like the style Queinnec uses in LiSP?
2018-10-05T22:53:05Z wasamasa: lol
2018-10-05T22:53:05Z kjak: I don't use that style, but it makes some sense
2018-10-05T22:53:19Z wasamasa: it's used here and there in CHICKEN, but slowly phased out
2018-10-05T22:53:20Z aeth: kjak: in the old days, before we had smart editors, some people used styles that are now Objectively Wrong.
2018-10-05T22:53:36Z wasamasa: if you haven't figured out the rule yet, you stick all parens belonging to the currnet line together and space the rest out
2018-10-05T22:53:44Z wasamasa: *current
2018-10-05T22:53:59Z aeth: no need to make paren balancing easy when no one does their own paren balancing. They either use something like paredit or at least something that will tell you which ( your ) is closing.
2018-10-05T22:54:24Z kjak: lol I wasn't saying it was the right style, but I don't personally have objections to it (not that that's worth much here)
2018-10-05T22:54:53Z aeth: There is, imo, one universal style that should be used everywhere. This makes things easier to read.
2018-10-05T22:55:37Z wasamasa: things fall apart as soon as someone doesn't use emacs
2018-10-05T22:55:40Z kjak: yeah. but like I said, I don't actually use that other style.
2018-10-05T22:55:50Z aeth: Modern CL is really, really good with this. Emacs Lisp is a bit more mixed because so many people who barely know Lisp write it to script their Emacs. Scheme seems to largely use the same style as CL, but of course every implementation can differ a bit.
2018-10-05T22:56:34Z aeth: Every now and then some Schemers mix in []s, but that's the main difference.
2018-10-05T22:56:43Z deslux joined #scheme
2018-10-05T22:57:17Z aeth: How many ";"s to put in a comment that goes on its own line differs. It's always ";" for end of the line comments and ";;" or more for line comments, but the exact details are probably the most variable thing in Lisp family style
2018-10-05T22:57:59Z aeth: e.g. in CL it's generally ";;;;" for a file header comment, ";;;" for a comment at a top level line, and ";;" for a line comment that's indented. Sometimes there is no ";;;;".
2018-10-05T22:58:39Z aeth: But I think a lot of other Lisps could use ";;" everywhere
2018-10-05T22:58:52Z aeth: I've seen some Scheme/Racket files that use ";" everywhere
2018-10-05T22:59:30Z xvx quit (Quit: xvx)
2018-10-05T23:00:36Z aeth: But these are tiny details compared to e.g. curly braces languages where there are big issues like if { should go on its own line and tabs vs. spaces
2018-10-05T23:02:43Z klovett_ quit
2018-10-05T23:03:07Z deslux quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2018-10-05T23:11:47Z jcowan joined #scheme
2018-10-05T23:26:57Z robotoad quit (Quit: robotoad)
2018-10-05T23:37:46Z robotoad joined #scheme
2018-10-05T23:38:51Z lavaflow joined #scheme
2018-10-05T23:40:34Z lavaflow_ quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2018-10-05T23:56:59Z johnjay joined #scheme
2018-10-05T23:59:51Z mhd2018 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2018-10-06T00:10:26Z jcowan quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)
2018-10-06T00:15:09Z siraben quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2018-10-06T00:18:41Z jcowan joined #scheme
2018-10-06T00:21:19Z mange joined #scheme
2018-10-06T00:26:01Z klovett joined #scheme
2018-10-06T00:31:20Z r1b joined #scheme
2018-10-06T00:33:51Z Zipheir joined #scheme
2018-10-06T00:35:09Z razzy quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2018-10-06T00:36:18Z florilege quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
2018-10-06T00:37:37Z florilege joined #scheme
2018-10-06T00:52:33Z robotoad quit (Quit: robotoad)
2018-10-06T00:55:15Z Riastradh joined #scheme
2018-10-06T00:58:09Z elderK joined #scheme
2018-10-06T01:03:04Z saki quit (Quit: saki)
2018-10-06T01:07:45Z Guest8240 joined #scheme
2018-10-06T01:08:54Z jcob joined #scheme
2018-10-06T01:14:04Z Guest8240 quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2018-10-06T01:14:37Z badkins quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2018-10-06T01:19:15Z baratheon joined #scheme
2018-10-06T01:20:15Z robotoad joined #scheme
2018-10-06T01:22:06Z baratheon quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2018-10-06T01:30:00Z snw quit (Quit: User was destroyed by a weapon of mass destruction.)
2018-10-06T01:30:41Z snw joined #scheme
2018-10-06T01:37:45Z jadaking joined #scheme
2018-10-06T01:37:46Z robotoad quit (Quit: robotoad)
2018-10-06T01:37:56Z jadaking quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2018-10-06T01:45:05Z robotoad joined #scheme
2018-10-06T01:55:21Z mange quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2018-10-06T02:01:40Z segfault_ joined #scheme
2018-10-06T02:01:55Z flerovite quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2018-10-06T02:11:40Z lambda-11235 joined #scheme
2018-10-06T02:18:19Z jcowan quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)
2018-10-06T02:28:30Z joast quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2018-10-06T02:29:32Z robotoad quit (Quit: robotoad)
2018-10-06T02:31:31Z DGASAU quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2018-10-06T02:31:40Z joast joined #scheme
2018-10-06T02:35:02Z DGASAU joined #scheme
2018-10-06T02:46:17Z jcowan joined #scheme
2018-10-06T03:05:39Z marusich joined #scheme
2018-10-06T03:11:49Z robotoad joined #scheme
2018-10-06T03:16:26Z jao quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2018-10-06T03:17:31Z jcowan_ joined #scheme
2018-10-06T03:19:42Z jcowan quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2018-10-06T03:29:35Z IstiCusi joined #scheme
2018-10-06T03:33:25Z IstiCusi_ joined #scheme
2018-10-06T03:33:45Z IstiCusi_ quit (Client Quit)
2018-10-06T03:34:26Z pierpal quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2018-10-06T03:47:09Z IstiCusi quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.2)
2018-10-06T03:55:57Z IstiCusi joined #scheme
2018-10-06T03:58:33Z IstiCusi quit (Client Quit)
2018-10-06T03:59:09Z IstiCusi joined #scheme
2018-10-06T03:59:31Z IstiCusi quit (Client Quit)
2018-10-06T04:05:12Z IstiCusi joined #scheme
2018-10-06T04:05:34Z IstiCusi quit (Client Quit)
2018-10-06T04:16:43Z r1b quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2018-10-06T04:25:15Z IstiCusi joined #scheme
2018-10-06T04:27:32Z pierpal joined #scheme
2018-10-06T04:41:44Z daviid quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
2018-10-06T04:54:16Z jonpughmk joined #scheme
2018-10-06T04:55:07Z jonpughmk quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2018-10-06T04:57:38Z jcowan joined #scheme
2018-10-06T04:58:24Z klovett quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2018-10-06T05:11:54Z jcowan quit (Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com)
2018-10-06T05:18:13Z jcowan_ quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)
2018-10-06T05:58:49Z kjak quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
2018-10-06T05:59:30Z kjak joined #scheme
2018-10-06T06:44:37Z pierpal quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2018-10-06T06:51:00Z lambda-11235 quit (Quit: Bye)
2018-10-06T07:16:03Z fmnt quit (Quit: Yaaic - Yet another Android IRC client - http://www.yaaic.org)
2018-10-06T07:18:45Z pierpal joined #scheme
2018-10-06T07:25:15Z pierpal quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2018-10-06T07:26:56Z pierpal joined #scheme
2018-10-06T07:33:46Z pierpal quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2018-10-06T07:36:01Z pierpal joined #scheme
2018-10-06T07:39:54Z pierpal quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2018-10-06T07:40:14Z pierpal joined #scheme
2018-10-06T07:43:18Z pierpal quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2018-10-06T07:44:48Z ravndal quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.2)
2018-10-06T07:46:06Z pierpal joined #scheme
2018-10-06T07:46:30Z ravndal joined #scheme
2018-10-06T07:46:54Z RichardShadark joined #scheme
2018-10-06T07:50:38Z RichardShadark quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2018-10-06T07:54:17Z razzy joined #scheme
2018-10-06T08:12:20Z pierpal quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2018-10-06T08:14:24Z pierpal joined #scheme
2018-10-06T08:14:48Z ggole joined #scheme
2018-10-06T08:15:50Z epony joined #scheme
2018-10-06T08:18:39Z siraben joined #scheme
2018-10-06T08:19:47Z johnjay quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2018-10-06T08:20:20Z pierpal quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2018-10-06T08:45:51Z robotoad quit (Quit: robotoad)
2018-10-06T08:50:19Z pierpal joined #scheme
2018-10-06T09:06:18Z `micro quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2018-10-06T09:09:18Z CrazyyMaxxZl joined #scheme
2018-10-06T09:13:46Z muelleme joined #scheme
2018-10-06T09:13:48Z CrazyyMaxxZl quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2018-10-06T09:18:13Z `micro joined #scheme
2018-10-06T09:18:15Z `micro quit (Changing host)
2018-10-06T09:18:15Z `micro joined #scheme
2018-10-06T09:45:02Z hugh_marera joined #scheme
2018-10-06T09:49:52Z muelleme quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2018-10-06T09:58:05Z hugh_marera quit (Quit: hugh_marera)
2018-10-06T10:10:00Z wigust joined #scheme
2018-10-06T10:10:48Z wigust- quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2018-10-06T10:25:13Z florilege quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
2018-10-06T10:39:07Z erkin joined #scheme
2018-10-06T10:41:02Z IstiCusi quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.2)
2018-10-06T10:47:40Z hugh_marera joined #scheme
2018-10-06T10:47:58Z hugh_marera quit (Client Quit)
2018-10-06T11:45:25Z nullcone quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity)
2018-10-06T11:57:29Z Labu quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.0.1)
2018-10-06T11:58:47Z Labu joined #scheme
2018-10-06T12:00:58Z Labu quit (Client Quit)
2018-10-06T12:02:18Z Labu joined #scheme
2018-10-06T12:24:13Z klovett joined #scheme
2018-10-06T12:30:27Z daviid joined #scheme
2018-10-06T12:31:44Z outtabwz joined #scheme
2018-10-06T12:37:06Z acarrico quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2018-10-06T12:40:49Z civodul joined #scheme
2018-10-06T12:46:37Z badkins joined #scheme
2018-10-06T12:52:01Z jcowan_ joined #scheme
2018-10-06T12:52:22Z klovett_ joined #scheme
2018-10-06T12:55:20Z klovett__ joined #scheme
2018-10-06T12:56:02Z klovett quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2018-10-06T12:59:00Z klovett_ quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2018-10-06T13:17:58Z lritter joined #scheme
2018-10-06T13:23:17Z mjlpg joined #scheme
2018-10-06T13:25:01Z mjlpg quit (K-Lined)
2018-10-06T13:29:13Z evhan quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2018-10-06T13:31:50Z evhan joined #scheme
2018-10-06T13:37:32Z jao joined #scheme
2018-10-06T13:38:12Z jcowan_ quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)
2018-10-06T13:38:51Z jcowan_ joined #scheme
2018-10-06T14:28:12Z tessier_ quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2018-10-06T14:29:33Z tessier joined #scheme
2018-10-06T14:29:33Z tessier quit (Changing host)
2018-10-06T14:29:33Z tessier joined #scheme
2018-10-06T14:46:38Z emma_ joined #scheme
2018-10-06T15:17:52Z elderK quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity)
2018-10-06T15:40:50Z nullcone joined #scheme
2018-10-06T15:53:31Z daviid quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2018-10-06T16:25:21Z mejja joined #scheme
2018-10-06T16:31:38Z florilege joined #scheme
2018-10-06T16:55:25Z r1b joined #scheme
2018-10-06T17:15:35Z amz3 joined #scheme
2018-10-06T17:15:55Z amz3: o/
2018-10-06T17:20:04Z pierpal quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2018-10-06T17:33:12Z amz3 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2018-10-06T17:38:39Z amz3 joined #scheme
2018-10-06T17:42:04Z r1b quit (Quit: r1b)
2018-10-06T17:51:48Z Khisanth quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
2018-10-06T17:54:38Z amz3 quit (Changing host)
2018-10-06T17:54:38Z amz3 joined #scheme
2018-10-06T17:56:07Z lritter quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2018-10-06T18:04:46Z Khisanth joined #scheme
2018-10-06T18:05:03Z amz3 quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2018-10-06T18:17:10Z klovett__ quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2018-10-06T18:17:46Z klovett joined #scheme
2018-10-06T18:20:16Z klovett quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2018-10-06T18:20:33Z klovett joined #scheme
2018-10-06T18:22:52Z erkin quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2018-10-06T18:24:52Z RichardShadark joined #scheme
2018-10-06T18:29:24Z jao quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2018-10-06T18:36:32Z mejja quit (Quit: mejja)
2018-10-06T18:37:04Z amz3 joined #scheme
2018-10-06T18:37:44Z amz3 quit (Changing host)
2018-10-06T18:37:44Z amz3 joined #scheme
2018-10-06T18:39:18Z mhd2018 joined #scheme
2018-10-06T18:41:31Z robotoad joined #scheme
2018-10-06T18:54:19Z ggole quit (Quit: ggole)
2018-10-06T18:55:51Z jao joined #scheme
2018-10-06T18:57:02Z r1b joined #scheme
2018-10-06T18:59:15Z jcowan_ quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2018-10-06T19:00:30Z alezost joined #scheme
2018-10-06T19:01:16Z jcowan joined #scheme
2018-10-06T19:09:54Z flerovite joined #scheme
2018-10-06T19:13:05Z segfault_ quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
2018-10-06T19:20:27Z amz3: I am diving into the wonderful world of priority queues
2018-10-06T19:21:55Z amz3: seems like an interesting problem to me
2018-10-06T19:23:50Z luzC joined #scheme
2018-10-06T19:25:53Z luzC quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2018-10-06T19:30:32Z muelleme joined #scheme
2018-10-06T19:33:14Z robotoad quit (Quit: robotoad)
2018-10-06T19:37:36Z erkin joined #scheme
2018-10-06T19:41:12Z robotoad joined #scheme
2018-10-06T19:41:18Z amz3 quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2018-10-06T19:42:17Z jcowan: AFAICT, priority queues and ordered sets are trivial variants of each other
2018-10-06T19:42:38Z daviid joined #scheme
2018-10-06T19:42:51Z RichardShadark quit (Quit: Quit)
2018-10-06T19:43:08Z RichardShadark joined #scheme
2018-10-06T20:05:14Z hugh_marera joined #scheme
2018-10-06T20:14:04Z kraftto joined #scheme
2018-10-06T20:17:51Z kraftto quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2018-10-06T20:20:34Z RichardShadark quit (Quit: Quit)
2018-10-06T20:30:32Z r1b quit (Quit: r1b)
2018-10-06T20:30:49Z yumh quit (Quit: ZNC - https://znc.in)
2018-10-06T20:31:04Z yumh joined #scheme
2018-10-06T20:52:31Z jcowan quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)
2018-10-06T20:56:02Z alezost quit (Quit: I live in GuixSD <http://www.gnu.org/s/guix> and Emacs <http://www.gnu.org/s/emacs>)
2018-10-06T20:56:44Z jcowan joined #scheme
2018-10-06T20:57:03Z jcowan quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2018-10-06T21:07:41Z emar joined #scheme
2018-10-06T21:13:04Z marusich quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2018-10-06T21:13:17Z hugh_marera quit (Quit: hugh_marera)
2018-10-06T21:14:13Z daviid quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2018-10-06T21:24:13Z jumper149 joined #scheme
2018-10-06T21:25:46Z jumper149: hi, is there a general way to look for scheme libraries especially r6rs?
2018-10-06T21:26:20Z jumper149: or can anyone tell me some good libraries with mathematics/physics in mind
2018-10-06T21:27:10Z wasamasa: most libraries are going to target a specific scheme implementation
2018-10-06T21:27:44Z wasamasa: since most implementations are lacking in the libraries aspect, chances are you'll have to do your own thing
2018-10-06T21:28:26Z wasamasa: perhaps your r6rs implementation has a decent FFI, that would make that task easier
2018-10-06T21:29:08Z jumper149: ok i prefer chez-scheme atm but would maybe change for better suited libraries
2018-10-06T21:29:15Z epony quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2018-10-06T21:29:35Z epony joined #scheme
2018-10-06T21:30:57Z jumper149: are there any projects that work around the mess of writing interlanguage functioncalls?
2018-10-06T21:31:05Z jumper149: for example implematations of the gpl
2018-10-06T21:31:13Z jumper149: i cant find anything^^
2018-10-06T21:31:36Z wasamasa: what is gpl in that context?
2018-10-06T21:31:39Z wasamasa: surely not the license
2018-10-06T21:31:49Z jumper149: oups gsl gnu scientific library :D
2018-10-06T21:33:04Z wasamasa: well, there's SWIG
2018-10-06T21:34:22Z wasamasa: with decent FFI I mean things like kawa
2018-10-06T21:34:30Z wasamasa: where you have java interop syntax
2018-10-06T21:35:13Z wasamasa: so you can use a ready-made library like libgdx
2018-10-06T21:38:32Z muelleme quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2018-10-06T21:44:28Z neopantsu joined #scheme
2018-10-06T21:50:31Z jumper149: this is not really what im looking for
2018-10-06T21:51:44Z jumper149: I would like to use scheme as a very high level language like python but still keep powerful tools like call/cc
2018-10-06T21:52:04Z jumper149: but i also dont want the bloat of lisp
2018-10-06T21:52:54Z jumper149: as i find syntax standards in scheme a lot more clear
2018-10-06T21:55:00Z neopantsu quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2018-10-06T21:55:02Z segfault_ joined #scheme
2018-10-06T21:55:16Z daviid joined #scheme
2018-10-06T21:55:34Z flerovite quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2018-10-06T21:57:43Z sander85gH joined #scheme
2018-10-06T22:00:40Z neopantsu joined #scheme
2018-10-06T22:01:03Z sander85gH quit (K-Lined)
2018-10-06T22:02:10Z wasamasa: kawa is a scheme implementation
2018-10-06T22:02:52Z wasamasa: so no idea what you're talking about
2018-10-06T22:03:51Z neopantsu quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2018-10-06T22:04:48Z Zipheir: Python is a 'very high level language'?
2018-10-06T22:05:14Z robotoad quit (Max SendQ exceeded)
2018-10-06T22:06:40Z aeth: Zipheir: depends on what you mean
2018-10-06T22:06:44Z neopantsu joined #scheme
2018-10-06T22:06:57Z aeth: If you mean 'looks like pseudocode', then yes
2018-10-06T22:07:07Z aeth: If you mean 'the most abstract language out there', then no
2018-10-06T22:07:09Z jumper149: i dont really have experience with java so thats probably going to result in a long learning process
2018-10-06T22:07:13Z Zipheir: aeth: Heh. I was trying to figure out what jumper149 meant by that.
2018-10-06T22:07:30Z jumper149: the pseudocode ;)
2018-10-06T22:07:32Z jcowan joined #scheme
2018-10-06T22:07:45Z jumper149: what makes a language abstract?
2018-10-06T22:08:22Z civodul quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 26.1))
2018-10-06T22:08:38Z Zipheir: I think aeth means expressivity, roughly.
2018-10-06T22:09:19Z neopantsu quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2018-10-06T22:09:29Z robotoad joined #scheme
2018-10-06T22:09:34Z Zipheir: i.e. Python isn't particularly 'abstract' in that you're still basically thinking in terms of cramming bits into registers to do things.
2018-10-06T22:10:01Z groovy2shoes quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2018-10-06T22:10:21Z aeth: Python's design philosophy "there's only one way to do it" so there are plenty of things you can't do in Python, or can't do well.
2018-10-06T22:10:37Z wasamasa: python is rather shitzo in this aspect
2018-10-06T22:10:51Z wasamasa: you can easily find inconsistencies between its actual behavior and the zen
2018-10-06T22:12:57Z Zipheir: aeth: That's not a matter of lack of abstraction, but one of their bondage-and-discipline design philosophy.
2018-10-06T22:16:22Z Jiffyqw joined #scheme
2018-10-06T22:18:09Z aeth: Zipheir: It is the lack of abstraction, actually. If A, B, and C can all accomplish task foo, Python only ones to pick one of those.
2018-10-06T22:18:18Z aeth: s/only ones/only wants/
2018-10-06T22:18:53Z Zipheir: aeth: That sounds like lack of options, not lack of abstraction.
2018-10-06T22:19:44Z aeth: Zipheir: it lacks e.g. proper functional abstractions
2018-10-06T22:20:04Z jumper149: lack of options correlates with the height of a language usually
2018-10-06T22:20:14Z jumper149: am i wrong?
2018-10-06T22:20:14Z Zipheir: aeth: Right, now that makes sense.
2018-10-06T22:23:24Z Jiffyqw quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2018-10-06T22:34:06Z muelleme joined #scheme
2018-10-06T22:37:46Z erkin quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2018-10-06T22:40:54Z muelleme quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
2018-10-06T22:55:58Z epony quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2018-10-06T22:57:56Z stonorKR joined #scheme
2018-10-06T23:00:47Z stonorKR quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2018-10-06T23:01:17Z epony joined #scheme
2018-10-06T23:03:25Z Zenton quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2018-10-06T23:08:57Z jumper149 quit (Quit: leaving)
2018-10-06T23:14:09Z Zenton joined #scheme
2018-10-06T23:31:23Z eponym joined #scheme
2018-10-06T23:33:27Z epony quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2018-10-06T23:35:25Z eponym is now known as epony
2018-10-06T23:49:58Z epony quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
2018-10-06T23:53:57Z epony joined #scheme
2018-10-07T00:03:14Z lupettoCn joined #scheme
2018-10-07T00:03:28Z daviid quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2018-10-07T00:07:59Z lupettoCn quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2018-10-07T00:09:33Z daviid joined #scheme
2018-10-07T00:09:57Z daviid is now known as Guest44001
2018-10-07T00:10:19Z Guest44001 is now known as daviid
2018-10-07T00:11:12Z epony quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2018-10-07T00:12:04Z Zenton quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2018-10-07T00:12:58Z Zenton joined #scheme
2018-10-07T00:14:57Z siraben quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2018-10-07T00:24:08Z Zenton quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2018-10-07T00:24:38Z Zenton joined #scheme
2018-10-07T00:31:43Z robotoad quit (Max SendQ exceeded)
2018-10-07T00:35:41Z florilege quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2018-10-07T00:36:14Z epony joined #scheme
2018-10-07T00:37:10Z florilege joined #scheme
2018-10-07T00:41:55Z lambda-11235 joined #scheme
2018-10-07T00:42:31Z robotoad joined #scheme
2018-10-07T00:54:20Z dieggsy: lol, i'm working on a gsl wrapper in chicken scheme right now
2018-10-07T00:54:46Z Zipheir quit (Quit: leaving)
2018-10-07T01:11:15Z daviid` joined #scheme
2018-10-07T01:12:36Z daviid quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
2018-10-07T01:19:57Z hive-mind quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2018-10-07T01:21:24Z hive-mind joined #scheme
2018-10-07T01:46:57Z badkins quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2018-10-07T01:51:43Z elderK joined #scheme
2018-10-07T01:55:04Z robotoad quit (Quit: robotoad)
2018-10-07T02:00:24Z flerovite joined #scheme
2018-10-07T02:00:39Z segfault_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2018-10-07T02:06:42Z epony quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2018-10-07T02:11:39Z epony joined #scheme
2018-10-07T02:13:35Z robotoad joined #scheme
2018-10-07T02:18:28Z jao quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2018-10-07T02:19:06Z Zipheir joined #scheme
2018-10-07T02:26:42Z daviid` quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2018-10-07T02:53:44Z epony quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
2018-10-07T03:00:53Z epony joined #scheme
2018-10-07T03:04:02Z epony quit (Excess Flood)
2018-10-07T03:04:28Z epony joined #scheme
2018-10-07T03:11:48Z epony quit (Excess Flood)
2018-10-07T03:17:09Z cortisol_ joined #scheme
2018-10-07T03:17:44Z cortisol_ left #scheme
2018-10-07T03:18:38Z epony joined #scheme
2018-10-07T03:20:41Z epony quit (Max SendQ exceeded)
2018-10-07T03:33:01Z epony joined #scheme
2018-10-07T03:45:10Z pierpal joined #scheme
2018-10-07T03:52:40Z pierpal quit (Quit: Poof)
2018-10-07T03:53:00Z pierpal joined #scheme
2018-10-07T03:54:49Z jcowan quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)
2018-10-07T04:06:31Z pierpal quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2018-10-07T04:06:46Z pierpal joined #scheme
2018-10-07T04:27:34Z terpri joined #scheme
2018-10-07T04:35:45Z cortisol quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2018-10-07T04:40:34Z ggole joined #scheme
2018-10-07T04:58:49Z vyzo quit (Quit: Leaving.)
2018-10-07T05:13:43Z pierpal quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2018-10-07T05:13:52Z pierpal joined #scheme
2018-10-07T05:20:30Z pierpal quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2018-10-07T05:22:12Z pierpal joined #scheme
2018-10-07T05:26:36Z pierpal quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2018-10-07T05:26:51Z pierpal joined #scheme
2018-10-07T05:59:00Z cransomTn joined #scheme
2018-10-07T06:01:10Z cransomTn quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2018-10-07T06:02:44Z cortisol joined #scheme
2018-10-07T06:37:35Z terpri quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
2018-10-07T06:50:28Z florilege quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2018-10-07T06:57:19Z nnplv joined #scheme
2018-10-07T07:02:17Z nnplv quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2018-10-07T07:18:19Z ryan42gT joined #scheme
2018-10-07T07:21:24Z ryan42gT quit (K-Lined)
2018-10-07T07:36:39Z klovett quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2018-10-07T07:37:20Z klovett joined #scheme
2018-10-07T07:46:59Z lambda-11235 quit (Quit: Bye)
2018-10-07T07:56:21Z muelleme joined #scheme
2018-10-07T08:06:45Z RichardShadark joined #scheme
2018-10-07T08:25:21Z erkin joined #scheme
2018-10-07T08:33:31Z daviid joined #scheme
2018-10-07T08:33:54Z daviid is now known as Guest76566
2018-10-07T08:34:07Z hugh_marera joined #scheme
2018-10-07T08:35:09Z Guest76566 is now known as daviid
2018-10-07T08:35:51Z RichardShadark quit (Quit: Leaving)
2018-10-07T08:36:25Z hugh_marera quit (Client Quit)
2018-10-07T08:45:09Z RichardShadark joined #scheme
2018-10-07T08:46:02Z RichardShadark: What's the practical use of call/cc?
2018-10-07T08:46:47Z RichardShadark: I mean common practical usage
2018-10-07T08:47:16Z RichardShadark: I suppose it's exiting from nested constructions
2018-10-07T08:47:28Z RichardShadark: But may be there's something else?
2018-10-07T08:49:05Z rain2: it can be used for a bunch of things
2018-10-07T08:49:11Z rain2: http://matt.might.net/articles/programming-with-continuations--exceptions-backtracking-search-threads-generators-coroutines/
2018-10-07T08:49:13Z rudybot: http://teensy.info/tIJTeP1Av4
2018-10-07T09:12:02Z muelleme quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2018-10-07T10:06:25Z robotoad quit (Quit: robotoad)
2018-10-07T10:07:45Z muelleme joined #scheme
2018-10-07T10:14:12Z muelleme quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2018-10-07T10:19:34Z TheGreekOwl quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2018-10-07T10:19:43Z ravndal quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.2)
2018-10-07T10:21:26Z RichardShadark quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
2018-10-07T10:24:13Z razzy: i love scheme (begin ) to express sequence :]
2018-10-07T10:28:05Z erkin quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2018-10-07T10:37:28Z wigust quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
2018-10-07T10:38:05Z wigust joined #scheme
2018-10-07T10:38:17Z nullcone quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity)
2018-10-07T10:38:33Z jao joined #scheme
2018-10-07T10:39:25Z ravndal joined #scheme
2018-10-07T10:41:00Z hugh_marera joined #scheme
2018-10-07T10:50:47Z taylan joined #scheme
2018-10-07T11:06:16Z jcowan joined #scheme
2018-10-07T11:10:26Z muelleme joined #scheme
2018-10-07T11:15:36Z muelleme quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2018-10-07T11:21:39Z lavaflow quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2018-10-07T11:35:30Z hugh_marera quit (Quit: hugh_marera)
2018-10-07T11:46:24Z pierpal quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2018-10-07T11:52:04Z florilege joined #scheme
2018-10-07T11:56:18Z gabot quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2018-10-07T11:56:55Z gabot joined #scheme
2018-10-07T12:12:47Z muelleme joined #scheme
2018-10-07T12:17:37Z pierpal joined #scheme
2018-10-07T12:17:45Z muelleme quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2018-10-07T12:18:22Z lavaflow joined #scheme
2018-10-07T12:27:14Z pierpal quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
2018-10-07T12:43:45Z siraben joined #scheme
2018-10-07T13:21:28Z elderK quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity)
2018-10-07T13:37:38Z siraben quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2018-10-07T13:37:53Z siraben joined #scheme
2018-10-07T13:38:43Z jcowan quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)
2018-10-07T13:41:29Z jcowan joined #scheme
2018-10-07T13:42:34Z siraben quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2018-10-07T13:43:56Z klovett quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2018-10-07T13:44:13Z klovett joined #scheme
2018-10-07T13:56:15Z siraben joined #scheme
2018-10-07T13:58:53Z muelleme joined #scheme
2018-10-07T14:00:36Z jcob quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2018-10-07T14:14:23Z erkin joined #scheme
2018-10-07T14:19:26Z pierpal joined #scheme
2018-10-07T14:30:54Z rain2: me too razzy
2018-10-07T14:35:30Z muelleme quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
2018-10-07T14:58:25Z lritter joined #scheme
2018-10-07T15:17:20Z klovett_ joined #scheme
2018-10-07T15:19:22Z CoconutCrab quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2018-10-07T15:21:08Z klovett quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
2018-10-07T15:25:12Z pyro- quit (Changing host)
2018-10-07T15:25:12Z pyro- joined #scheme
2018-10-07T15:26:05Z CoconutCrab joined #scheme
2018-10-07T15:38:09Z razzy: rain2: funny would be if everything else consider parael
2018-10-07T15:44:04Z rain2: that could be interesting
2018-10-07T15:54:17Z muelleme joined #scheme
2018-10-07T15:55:47Z alezost joined #scheme
2018-10-07T15:58:02Z amz3 joined #scheme
2018-10-07T15:58:09Z klovett joined #scheme
2018-10-07T16:02:18Z klovett_ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2018-10-07T16:14:24Z lambda-11235 joined #scheme
2018-10-07T16:19:16Z pflanze quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2018-10-07T16:21:07Z pflanze joined #scheme
2018-10-07T16:25:15Z r1b joined #scheme
2018-10-07T16:32:35Z muelleme quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
2018-10-07T16:56:54Z jao quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2018-10-07T16:57:23Z nullcone joined #scheme
2018-10-07T16:57:23Z cliff joined #scheme
2018-10-07T17:26:17Z hugbubby joined #scheme
2018-10-07T17:26:30Z hugbubby: is SICP still a good introduction to Scheme?
2018-10-07T17:26:58Z qu1j0t3: I don't think it _is_ an introducton to Scheme
2018-10-07T17:27:08Z qu1j0t3: try "Programming in Scheme", Abelson, Eisenberg & Sussman
2018-10-07T17:29:46Z hugbubby: would I get anything out of learning Scheme by reading SICP? Or do you mean literally that it doesnt teach scheme?
2018-10-07T17:30:51Z cliff quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2018-10-07T17:30:59Z alezost quit (Quit: I live in GuixSD <http://www.gnu.org/s/guix> and Emacs <http://www.gnu.org/s/emacs>)
2018-10-07T17:32:57Z rain2: yeah its a good book
2018-10-07T17:36:47Z Zipheir: hugbubby: It uses patterns that are very good to know as a Scheme programmer (recursion, lazy evaluation, message-passing, etc.)
2018-10-07T17:37:10Z wasamasa: hugbubby: it teaches you CS
2018-10-07T17:37:31Z wasamasa: hugbubby: you happen to use scheme to learn the concepts, that's all
2018-10-07T17:38:39Z Zipheir: s/patterns/stuff/, to hell with the Gang of Four.
2018-10-07T17:39:29Z tolja: I've used scheme only for sicp for now and i've got something out of it
2018-10-07T17:43:09Z muelleme joined #scheme
2018-10-07T17:49:08Z muelleme quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
2018-10-07T17:52:20Z klovett quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2018-10-07T17:52:57Z klovett joined #scheme
2018-10-07T17:56:52Z qu1j0t3: hugbubby: depends on your objective. If you are only a scheme beginner, don't start with SICP. Start with another book, or at least, accompany with another book. PiS worked well for me
2018-10-07T18:01:35Z Zipheir: qu1j0t3: Good book, but isn't it out of print?
2018-10-07T18:02:08Z qu1j0t3: that never stopped me before
2018-10-07T18:02:28Z qu1j0t3: anyway there are other texts. i probabluy used about four
2018-10-07T18:02:39Z qu1j0t3: that was just the one that i remember helping most
2018-10-07T18:06:49Z outtabwz quit (Quit: leaving)
2018-10-07T18:08:47Z TheGreekOwl joined #scheme
2018-10-07T18:12:55Z ggole quit (Quit: ggole)
2018-10-07T18:16:28Z r1b quit (Quit: r1b)
2018-10-07T18:19:30Z robotoad joined #scheme
2018-10-07T18:28:00Z klovett quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2018-10-07T18:28:17Z klovett joined #scheme
2018-10-07T18:37:10Z RichardShadark joined #scheme
2018-10-07T18:41:18Z niklasl quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2018-10-07T18:42:36Z niklasl joined #scheme
2018-10-07T18:49:30Z pierpal quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2018-10-07T18:49:41Z pierpal joined #scheme
2018-10-07T18:50:46Z pierpal quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2018-10-07T18:51:22Z pierpal joined #scheme
2018-10-07T18:55:29Z hugh_marera joined #scheme
2018-10-07T18:55:43Z alezost joined #scheme
2018-10-07T19:01:08Z fadein quit (Quit: leaving)
2018-10-07T19:01:31Z robotoad quit (Quit: robotoad)
2018-10-07T19:03:53Z robotoad joined #scheme
2018-10-07T19:12:10Z hugh_marera quit (Quit: hugh_marera)
2018-10-07T19:16:51Z ravndal quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2018-10-07T19:19:42Z IstiCusi joined #scheme
2018-10-07T19:23:09Z ravndal joined #scheme
2018-10-07T19:23:32Z lambda-11235 quit (Quit: Bye)
2018-10-07T19:26:59Z hugh_marera joined #scheme
2018-10-07T19:33:10Z jao joined #scheme
2018-10-07T19:37:22Z Zenton quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2018-10-07T19:37:24Z hugh_marera quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2018-10-07T19:37:37Z Zenton joined #scheme
2018-10-07T19:40:45Z hugh_marera joined #scheme
2018-10-07T19:41:00Z ngz joined #scheme
2018-10-07T19:48:18Z pierpal quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2018-10-07T19:53:02Z IstiCusi quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.2)
2018-10-07T19:56:22Z hugh_marera quit (Quit: hugh_marera)
2018-10-07T20:01:41Z hugh_marera joined #scheme
2018-10-07T20:06:20Z RichardShadark quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2018-10-07T20:11:01Z Zenton quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2018-10-07T20:12:47Z Zenton joined #scheme
2018-10-07T20:20:48Z Zenton quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2018-10-07T20:22:10Z Zenton joined #scheme
2018-10-07T20:23:01Z pjb joined #scheme
2018-10-07T20:41:32Z groovy2shoes joined #scheme
2018-10-07T20:47:23Z jcowan quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)
2018-10-07T20:59:22Z jcowan joined #scheme
2018-10-07T21:05:33Z jcowan_ joined #scheme
2018-10-07T21:07:43Z jcowan quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2018-10-07T21:08:40Z r1b joined #scheme
2018-10-07T21:11:47Z robotoad quit (Quit: robotoad)
2018-10-07T21:16:10Z taylan quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2018-10-07T21:21:23Z hugh_marera quit (Quit: hugh_marera)
2018-10-07T21:21:55Z hugh_marera joined #scheme
2018-10-07T21:23:01Z hugh_marera quit (Client Quit)
2018-10-07T21:24:35Z hugh_marera joined #scheme
2018-10-07T21:25:04Z hugh_marera quit (Client Quit)
2018-10-07T21:28:36Z badkins joined #scheme
2018-10-07T21:30:01Z badkins quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2018-10-07T21:47:29Z alezost quit (Quit: I live in GuixSD <http://www.gnu.org/s/guix> and Emacs <http://www.gnu.org/s/emacs>)
2018-10-07T21:51:51Z pie_ joined #scheme
2018-10-07T21:55:03Z Khisanth quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2018-10-07T21:55:30Z Khisanth joined #scheme
2018-10-07T21:55:40Z robotoad joined #scheme
2018-10-07T22:21:41Z erkin quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2018-10-07T22:22:07Z jcowan_ quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)
2018-10-07T22:38:17Z nullcone quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity)
2018-10-07T22:46:16Z pjb quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2018-10-07T22:48:44Z jcowan_ joined #scheme
2018-10-07T22:49:56Z r1b quit (Quit: r1b)
2018-10-07T22:54:06Z jcowan_ quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)
2018-10-07T23:02:54Z ngz quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2018-10-07T23:03:20Z jcowan_ joined #scheme
2018-10-07T23:03:53Z nullcone joined #scheme
2018-10-07T23:06:20Z jcowan_ quit (Client Quit)
2018-10-07T23:07:37Z lambda-11235 joined #scheme
2018-10-07T23:20:53Z jcowan_ joined #scheme
2018-10-07T23:22:28Z pjb joined #scheme
2018-10-07T23:23:25Z marusich joined #scheme
2018-10-07T23:24:14Z massma joined #scheme
2018-10-07T23:26:18Z siraben: Zipheir: One thing I don't like about SICP is its obsession with using very long `cond' statements to destructure its programs.  Modern Schemes just pattern matching one way or another.
2018-10-07T23:26:30Z siraben: s/programs/data structures
2018-10-07T23:26:55Z siraben: Otherwise it's very solid and the lectures are also worth watching.
2018-10-07T23:31:14Z aeth quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2018-10-07T23:32:09Z aeth joined #scheme
2018-10-07T23:32:11Z Zipheir: siraben: Hi!
2018-10-07T23:32:35Z Zipheir: siraben: Yes, that was one of Wadler's complaints about SICP.
2018-10-07T23:32:47Z Zipheir: siraben: Too much manual destructuring.
2018-10-07T23:36:16Z jcowan_ quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)
2018-10-07T23:37:36Z Zipheir: siraben: One thing I was thinking about recently is whether the presence of pattern-matching in a languages makes multi-valued procedures unnecessary.
2018-10-07T23:37:57Z qu1j0t3: multi-valued procedures? yuou mean overloading?
2018-10-07T23:38:05Z qu1j0t3: or varargs?
2018-10-07T23:38:42Z Zipheir: siraben: e.g. in Scheme if you can just write (match (foo) ((a b) ...)) there's no need for (call-with-values foo (lambda (a b) ...)), you just have foo return a list.
2018-10-07T23:39:07Z Zipheir: qu1j0t3: Multiple return values.
2018-10-07T23:40:42Z qu1j0t3: hm, well, i'm used to typesystems with product types, so i t never really arises for me
2018-10-07T23:41:02Z qu1j0t3: though with those, you normally destructure with pattern matches, so ... i guess you're right
2018-10-07T23:41:14Z Zipheir: Yeah, that's what gave me the idea.
2018-10-07T23:41:55Z qu1j0t3: not always lists though. maybe tuples, or other record-like product types
2018-10-07T23:43:26Z Zipheir: Scheme's matching implementations get inconsistent outside of lists, unfortunately.
2018-10-07T23:44:05Z Zipheir: And lists are usually what we use for tuples, anyway.
2018-10-07T23:44:11Z qu1j0t3: yes
2018-10-07T23:46:38Z aeth: Zipheir: Why would you want to have foo return a list when you can have foo return multiple values?
2018-10-07T23:46:49Z aeth: Zipheir: The whole point about multiple values is that they're (potentially) non-consing
2018-10-07T23:47:04Z aeth: A list will (probably) allocate a very short lived list unless inline
2018-10-07T23:47:31Z pie_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2018-10-07T23:47:43Z qu1j0t3: that can be very cheap, however.
2018-10-07T23:47:57Z Zipheir: aeth: That's a downside, albeit not a big one.
2018-10-07T23:48:32Z aeth: qu1j0t3: Very cheap vs free, however. Afaik, if you implement efficient multiple return values there's a slight cost that's already there whether or not you are actually using multiple return values.
2018-10-07T23:48:42Z jcowan_ joined #scheme
2018-10-07T23:48:45Z Duns_Scrotus: Of all the languages to have perf hacks built into the spec
2018-10-07T23:49:09Z aeth: qu1j0t3: Since the cost's there already, it's free to use multiple return values
2018-10-07T23:49:35Z Zipheir: aeth: The additional complexity in the definition of a procedure is not good.
2018-10-07T23:49:56Z Zipheir: aeth: A procedure returns a single value. Simple, elegant.
2018-10-07T23:50:33Z aeth: Zipheir: if a procedure can take in multiple values, then why not let it return multiple values as well?
2018-10-07T23:51:44Z siraben quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
2018-10-07T23:51:44Z Zenton quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2018-10-07T23:52:02Z Zipheir: Because it's unnecessary, and you can think of your multiple-valued procedures as functions again, just functions returning a product type.
2018-10-07T23:52:07Z aeth: Zipheir: Anyway, the alternative to multiple return values in efficient code isn't returning a list, it's (generally) mutation. So it's a Lispier thing to prefer multiple return values to passing in a mutable data structure for the extra values imo.
2018-10-07T23:52:25Z Zipheir: Eliminate the let-values/receive/call-with-values debate for good!
2018-10-07T23:52:48Z Zipheir: Ew, no C style please.
2018-10-07T23:52:55Z montokapro joined #scheme
2018-10-07T23:52:55Z aeth: multiple return values, combined with everything as an expression, makes it pretty easy to refactor arbitrary things into separate functions, too.
2018-10-07T23:53:47Z aeth: If something calculates foo bar and baz together I can just spin that off into a separate, probably pure, function that returns the values foo bar and baz
2018-10-07T23:53:56Z aeth: No need to change essentially anything except the binding
2018-10-07T23:54:25Z aeth: And if that spin-off function's inline, there's a good chance that nothing internally changed.
2018-10-07T23:55:34Z pjb quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2018-10-07T23:56:17Z aeth: So I can quite possibly get absolutely free refactoring of a large procedure into several smaller ones thanks to multiple return values.
2018-10-07T23:56:21Z Zipheir: Scheme has handled values pretty sensibly, but it's quite ugly in most languages that implement them.
2018-10-07T23:56:44Z aeth: (not entirely free, probably takes longer for the compiler)
2018-10-07T23:57:35Z aeth: Zipheir: afaik, multiple values is yet another place where Scheme and Common Lisp are essentially identical, just with Scheme renaming everything slightly differently
2018-10-07T23:58:31Z lritter quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
2018-10-07T23:58:46Z Zipheir: aeth: I was think of Python with its crazy procedure-call complexity and Go, which has basically returns multiple values with everything.
2018-10-07T23:58:54Z Zipheir: s/has//
2018-10-07T23:59:10Z aeth: Zipheir: Although, to be fair, in CL values can be implemented (and in SBCL is pretty much implemented) as (defun values* (&rest values) (values-list values))
2018-10-07T23:59:23Z aeth: Zipheir: So there is, in a sense, a temporary list there, just in a restricted enough way that it gets optimized out
2018-10-07T23:59:47Z Zipheir: aeth: CL's calling conventions are hideous, in all honesty.
2018-10-08T00:01:10Z Zipheir: Rest parameters, keyword parameters, default parameters, optional parameters...
2018-10-08T00:01:10Z Zipheir: What an incredible mess.
2018-10-08T00:02:40Z aeth: doesn't seem messy to me
2018-10-08T00:03:39Z aeth: There's normal parameters, and then there's three possible things you can add to the end of normal parameters: keyword arguments, optional arguments, and rest arguments. keyword and optional arguments are identical except keywords can be done in any order at the expense of having to name every one of them. rest arguments are basically just turning everything into a list.
2018-10-08T00:04:05Z aeth: Now, what's really messy is how these are extended in defmethod
2018-10-08T00:04:12Z Zipheir: aeth: I know you're a CL partisan, but you've got to admit that aspects of the language are poorly designed.
2018-10-08T00:06:46Z aeth: Zipheir: Right, like symbol upcasing. The correct way to handle backwards compatibility would have been to have backwards compatible packages and apply this to the CL package. Backwards compatible packages would have a downcase and upcase version of symbols, so cl:car and CL:CAR would be valid (and Cl:CaR wouldn't be valid)
2018-10-08T00:07:09Z aeth: Would have doubled the memory so I can see why they wouldn't have done that in the early 1990s, though. Desktop computers were weaker than today's toasters.
2018-10-08T00:09:00Z Zipheir: Right. Interestingly, Scheme didn't go case-sensitive until what, R4RS?
2018-10-08T00:09:02Z aeth: Zipheir: The difference is that the parts I don't like about CL are the parts that can burn even advanced users (like when an API assumes case-insensitivity thanks to the weird behavior of the reader upcasing symbols by default) not stuff that confuses newbies
2018-10-08T00:09:52Z Zipheir: aeth: Such as?
2018-10-08T00:10:43Z aeth: symbol upcasing :-p
2018-10-08T00:11:56Z Zipheir: aeth: That confuses newbies as well, I assume.
2018-10-08T00:12:15Z aeth: Zipheir: another thing that's weird in CL is that it will specify that there must be an error for certain things (like an invalid destructuring-bind) but it doesn't specify WHAT the error is going to be.
2018-10-08T00:12:21Z aeth: How are you supposed to handle that?
2018-10-08T00:14:42Z aeth: Zipheir: Of course Scheme has problems like that, too. It'll often have an unspecified return value that an implementation will literally treat as returning #<unspecified> which just seems wrong for a language where everything is an expression. Even when something normally doesn't have a meaningful return value and is normally just used for its side effect, its return value could be useful in niche cases.
2018-10-08T00:15:43Z Zipheir: Yes, Scheme implementations have taken unspecification very literally.
2018-10-08T00:16:01Z aeth: e.g. wouldn't it be nice if display returned the thing it's printing? So you could do something like (logging (display "Hello\n")) and get "Hello\n" into the logging procedure instead of #<void> in racket, or some other similarly useless value in other implementations.
2018-10-08T00:16:29Z aeth: CL is inconsistent here. Some printing functions return the thing itself and some return NIL. But even NIL is more useful here because NIL is false, so you're in effect getting #f, not #absolutely-useless
2018-10-08T00:16:49Z aeth: Why should an expression-based language where everything returns something return something *absolutely* useless?
2018-10-08T00:17:55Z jcowan_ quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)
2018-10-08T00:18:10Z jcowan_ joined #scheme
2018-10-08T00:18:36Z Zipheir: Scheme's standard functions generally try to separate side-effecting procedures from functions the calls to which evaluate to something.
2018-10-08T00:18:42Z jcowan_ quit (Client Quit)
2018-10-08T00:18:43Z Zipheir: I do appreciate that segregation.
2018-10-08T00:19:56Z Zipheir: In practice, a lot of Scheme programmers mix side-effects with meaningful returns, but it's nice to have that separation in the core language.
2018-10-08T00:22:22Z acarrico joined #scheme
2018-10-08T00:22:36Z aeth: In CL, sometimes you see people write things that return (values) or NIL (and (values) is treated as NIL most of the time, really only seems to be detectable in the REPL, multiple-value-list, and multiple-value-call... most values handling implicitly adds nil for values that aren't there when that value is requested)
2018-10-08T00:22:38Z Zipheir: (input procedures are the obvious exception)
2018-10-08T00:22:56Z aeth: for the most part, though, when someone in CL writes a function they will return something, even if it's used for the side effects.
2018-10-08T00:23:04Z aeth: Mutate an array with that function? Probably should return the array.
2018-10-08T00:23:23Z Zipheir: Combined with the lack of a -! convention in CL, that's a bad idea.
2018-10-08T00:23:57Z aeth: In practice you can spot mutation.
2018-10-08T00:24:11Z aeth: And no one is really going to complain if you do use the foo! convention
2018-10-08T00:25:26Z aeth: The least Scheme-style of my CL is probably cl-scheme so I can clearly distinguish between the CL and the Scheme. If Scheme has foo? and CL doesn't, I'll write a foo-p (or even foop, which I'd normally never do) so it looks like CL has it built in when normally I'd probably just call it foo? even in CL.
2018-10-08T00:26:19Z Zipheir: Well, IMHO Scheme got it right in separating procedures with side-effects. If you're going to have side-effecting procedures in a language, make it hard to confuse them with true functions.
2018-10-08T00:26:43Z jcowan_ joined #scheme
2018-10-08T00:27:00Z aeth: Zipheir: The ! is incredibly useful
2018-10-08T00:27:07Z aeth: Zipheir: But that doesn't mean that foo! can't return a value
2018-10-08T00:27:19Z aeth: It's especially important in the REPL
2018-10-08T00:28:12Z aeth: If I want to test (or just use) a foo! in the REPL, then I want to be able to use it in one line. I suddenly have to turn it into 3 lines if it doesn't return anything useful (a let binding, followed by the function call, followed by returning the thing I bound in the let)
2018-10-08T00:28:38Z aeth: At least for the print side effects it probably doesn't matter because the printing is probably going to show up in the REPL anyway.
2018-10-08T00:30:00Z jcowan_ quit (Client Quit)
2018-10-08T00:30:18Z jcowan_ joined #scheme
2018-10-08T00:30:47Z jcowan_ quit (Client Quit)
2018-10-08T00:31:44Z jcowan_ joined #scheme
2018-10-08T00:35:18Z florilege quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2018-10-08T00:36:55Z aeth: In CL, though, the return value isn't always useful for REPL use. e.g. setf returns the value and not the thing being set, which is useful for chaining setfs but is not useful for REPL use (and it's probably not even the right thing for most mutating functions, which should probably return the mutated object)
2018-10-08T00:37:08Z florilege joined #scheme
2018-10-08T00:38:09Z aeth: e.g. (setf foo 42) returns 42, not foo. It's only the same thing if it isn't a data structure, so (setf (aref foo 0) 42) returns 42 instead of foo
2018-10-08T00:39:22Z aeth: Either's better imo though than the #<void> in (display (let ((foo 1)) (set! foo 42)))
2018-10-08T00:41:03Z aeth: (that's Racket again)
2018-10-08T00:42:23Z aeth: I should mention again that the return values for things like set! are unspecified, it's just that the popular implementations choose to return useless things when the value is unspecified.
2018-10-08T00:46:00Z jcowan_ quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)
2018-10-08T00:46:12Z massma quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2018-10-08T00:46:14Z jcowan_ joined #scheme
2018-10-08T00:46:46Z jcowan_ quit (Client Quit)
2018-10-08T00:49:03Z aeth: I don't intend on having a useless value like #<void> in my Scheme. I'm not sure if I'd return #f (like a CL mutation function returning nil), foo, or 42 with (set! foo 42) though.
2018-10-08T00:50:47Z aeth: I guess another possibility is implementing jcowan's maybe extension and returning *its* nothing.
2018-10-08T00:51:43Z jcowan_ joined #scheme
2018-10-08T00:51:50Z jcowan_ quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2018-10-08T00:52:25Z jcowan_ joined #scheme
2018-10-08T00:52:48Z jcowan_ quit (Client Quit)
2018-10-08T00:53:33Z jcowan_ joined #scheme
2018-10-08T01:03:56Z jao quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2018-10-08T01:24:04Z on_ion joined #scheme
2018-10-08T01:48:39Z marusich quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2018-10-08T01:52:21Z pjb joined #scheme
2018-10-08T02:00:37Z florilege quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
2018-10-08T02:06:06Z robotoad quit (Quit: robotoad)
2018-10-08T02:25:34Z pjb quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2018-10-08T02:33:28Z florilege joined #scheme
2018-10-08T02:53:19Z pjb joined #scheme
2018-10-08T02:55:03Z robotoad joined #scheme
2018-10-08T03:06:43Z linack joined #scheme
2018-10-08T03:17:34Z hugbubby quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2018-10-08T03:19:27Z hugbubby joined #scheme
2018-10-08T03:26:15Z pjb quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2018-10-08T03:39:06Z jcowan_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2018-10-08T03:40:18Z florilege quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2018-10-08T03:40:51Z Khisanth quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2018-10-08T03:40:57Z jcowan_ joined #scheme
2018-10-08T03:58:28Z Khisanth joined #scheme
2018-10-08T04:07:30Z montokapro quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
2018-10-08T04:08:14Z CoconutCrab left #scheme
2018-10-08T04:20:19Z daviid quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2018-10-08T05:11:16Z jcowan_ quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)
2018-10-08T05:12:03Z jcowan_ joined #scheme
2018-10-08T05:12:28Z jcowan_ quit (Client Quit)
2018-10-08T05:23:21Z pjb joined #scheme
2018-10-08T05:25:14Z florilege joined #scheme
2018-10-08T05:51:15Z razzy quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
2018-10-08T05:56:30Z pjb quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2018-10-08T05:57:44Z razzy joined #scheme
2018-10-08T06:15:45Z linack quit (Quit: Leaving)
2018-10-08T06:45:16Z muelleme joined #scheme
2018-10-08T06:52:30Z muelleme quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2018-10-08T06:56:04Z amz3 quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2018-10-08T07:02:34Z lambda-11235 quit (Quit: Bye)
2018-10-08T07:14:14Z m1dnight_ quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.2)
2018-10-08T07:14:38Z m1dnight_ joined #scheme
2018-10-08T07:34:57Z florilege quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2018-10-08T07:36:42Z robotoad quit (Quit: robotoad)
2018-10-08T07:49:24Z muelleme joined #scheme
2018-10-08T07:53:51Z pjb joined #scheme
2018-10-08T07:54:31Z muelleme quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2018-10-08T07:57:50Z greatscottttt joined #scheme
2018-10-08T08:15:55Z ggole joined #scheme
2018-10-08T08:26:33Z pjb quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2018-10-08T09:08:44Z razzy quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2018-10-08T09:08:59Z razzy joined #scheme
2018-10-08T09:15:45Z Zenton joined #scheme
2018-10-08T09:38:09Z TheGreekOwl quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2018-10-08T10:16:38Z dtornabene joined #scheme
2018-10-08T10:23:52Z siraben joined #scheme
2018-10-08T10:24:02Z pjb joined #scheme
2018-10-08T10:25:14Z siraben: Zipheir: Hi!
2018-10-08T10:25:17Z siraben: Zipheir: I find multiple returns somewhat confusing, maybe I haven't played around with it enough.
2018-10-08T10:25:25Z siraben: If you want to return multiple results and decouple them from time, just wrap them in a (lambda () ...)
2018-10-08T10:35:05Z erkin joined #scheme
2018-10-08T10:52:51Z siraben quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2018-10-08T10:56:09Z pjb quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2018-10-08T10:59:09Z jcowan_ joined #scheme
2018-10-08T11:03:56Z wigust quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
2018-10-08T11:05:00Z wigust joined #scheme
2018-10-08T11:17:09Z lockywolf joined #scheme
2018-10-08T11:21:09Z lockywolf_ joined #scheme
2018-10-08T11:23:10Z dtornabene quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2018-10-08T11:23:23Z lockywolf quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2018-10-08T11:23:27Z dtornabene joined #scheme
2018-10-08T11:24:53Z siraben joined #scheme
2018-10-08T11:26:57Z xelxebar joined #scheme
2018-10-08T11:33:54Z civodul joined #scheme
2018-10-08T11:41:56Z nullcone quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity)
2018-10-08T11:43:12Z epony quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
2018-10-08T12:08:05Z pjb joined #scheme
2018-10-08T12:14:22Z jao joined #scheme
2018-10-08T12:21:54Z dtornabene quit (Quit: Leaving)
2018-10-08T12:24:12Z lockywolf_ quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2018-10-08T12:24:49Z lockywolf_ joined #scheme
2018-10-08T12:26:46Z epony joined #scheme
2018-10-08T12:31:28Z hugbubby quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
2018-10-08T12:35:30Z thevishy joined #scheme
2018-10-08T12:40:26Z pjb quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2018-10-08T12:45:34Z epony quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2018-10-08T13:01:39Z jcowan_ quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2018-10-08T13:07:54Z dmiles quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2018-10-08T13:10:05Z jcowan joined #scheme
2018-10-08T13:14:08Z thevishy quit (Quit: thevishy)
2018-10-08T13:28:01Z epony joined #scheme
2018-10-08T13:41:15Z lockywolf_ quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2018-10-08T13:50:48Z fadein joined #scheme
2018-10-08T13:54:17Z lritter joined #scheme
2018-10-08T14:01:20Z dmiles joined #scheme
2018-10-08T14:04:20Z siraben: Anyone managed to get a Scheme implementation working on Termux on Android?
2018-10-08T14:08:21Z smazga joined #scheme
2018-10-08T14:11:02Z daviid joined #scheme
2018-10-08T14:11:22Z daviid is now known as Guest50937
2018-10-08T14:14:48Z jcowan quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2018-10-08T14:17:47Z jcowan joined #scheme
2018-10-08T14:20:15Z Guest50937 is now known as daviid
2018-10-08T14:24:56Z jcowan quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
2018-10-08T14:37:54Z pjb joined #scheme
2018-10-08T14:43:12Z jcowan joined #scheme
2018-10-08T14:43:16Z lavaflow quit (Read error: No route to host)
2018-10-08T14:45:31Z lavaflow joined #scheme
2018-10-08T14:50:50Z jcowan quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
2018-10-08T14:59:56Z badkins joined #scheme
2018-10-08T15:02:32Z badkins_ joined #scheme
2018-10-08T15:05:20Z badkins quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
2018-10-08T15:10:54Z pjb quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2018-10-08T15:12:33Z razzy quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2018-10-08T15:15:24Z jcowan joined #scheme
2018-10-08T15:19:58Z greatscottttt quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.9)
2018-10-08T15:24:15Z jcowan quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)
2018-10-08T15:24:30Z epony quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2018-10-08T15:26:49Z jcowan joined #scheme
2018-10-08T15:47:27Z erkin quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2018-10-08T15:48:58Z razzy joined #scheme
2018-10-08T15:50:12Z erkin joined #scheme
2018-10-08T15:52:09Z Zenton quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2018-10-08T15:55:06Z massma joined #scheme
2018-10-08T15:59:35Z IstiCusi joined #scheme
2018-10-08T16:01:12Z on_ion: siraben: gambit, likely quite a few others
2018-10-08T16:01:24Z jcowan quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)
2018-10-08T16:01:26Z on_ion: siraben: i had julia 1.0 and emacs and all sorts of fun stuff there, on an LG G3
2018-10-08T16:03:42Z jcowan joined #scheme
2018-10-08T16:12:32Z linack joined #scheme
2018-10-08T16:20:00Z civodul quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 26.1))
2018-10-08T16:23:56Z siraben: I couldn't get CHICKEN to link chickenlib
2018-10-08T16:24:05Z siraben: or libchicken, one of its libraries.
2018-10-08T16:41:06Z xelxebar quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2018-10-08T16:52:14Z mhd2018 quit (Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com)
2018-10-08T16:53:11Z pjb joined #scheme
2018-10-08T17:02:53Z florilege joined #scheme
2018-10-08T17:08:02Z hugo quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.9.1)
2018-10-08T17:10:53Z hugh_marera joined #scheme
2018-10-08T17:15:28Z Ober: you link egg first, but some think you link chicken first.
2018-10-08T17:19:15Z IstiCusi quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.2)
2018-10-08T17:20:38Z hugo joined #scheme
2018-10-08T17:24:58Z mejja joined #scheme
2018-10-08T17:31:42Z linack quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2018-10-08T17:38:53Z massma quit (Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 26.1)
2018-10-08T17:40:30Z f8l: TinyScheme is in Termux package repository.
2018-10-08T17:41:25Z on_ion: siraben: make sure all the packages for termux installed? binutils etc
2018-10-08T17:42:44Z jcowan quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)
2018-10-08T17:43:51Z epony joined #scheme
2018-10-08T17:55:38Z nckx quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2018-10-08T18:03:47Z mejja quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2018-10-08T18:04:20Z jcowan joined #scheme
2018-10-08T18:07:39Z florilege quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2018-10-08T18:14:20Z razzy quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
2018-10-08T18:15:13Z JohnTalent joined #scheme
2018-10-08T18:17:36Z JohnTalent: any of you use tinyscheme?
2018-10-08T18:19:43Z Ober: hmm termux. that would be a nice way to install schemes. thanks for the idea
2018-10-08T18:21:08Z mejja joined #scheme
2018-10-08T18:21:21Z Zipheir: JohnTalent: In its Script-fu incarnation, yes, a bit.
2018-10-08T18:22:37Z Zenton joined #scheme
2018-10-08T18:34:57Z pjb quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2018-10-08T18:36:36Z turbofail quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2018-10-08T18:39:40Z turbofail joined #scheme
2018-10-08T18:41:10Z hugh_marera quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2018-10-08T18:48:25Z pjb joined #scheme
2018-10-08T18:52:59Z florilege joined #scheme
2018-10-08T18:57:24Z mejja quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2018-10-08T18:59:02Z hugh_marera joined #scheme
2018-10-08T19:02:21Z TheGreekOwl joined #scheme
2018-10-08T19:11:56Z robotoad joined #scheme
2018-10-08T19:13:12Z ggole quit (Quit: ggole)
2018-10-08T19:18:48Z razzy joined #scheme
2018-10-08T19:26:53Z jcowan quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)
2018-10-08T19:30:38Z alezost joined #scheme
2018-10-08T19:31:03Z jcowan joined #scheme
2018-10-08T19:33:23Z jcowan quit (Client Quit)
2018-10-08T19:36:03Z jcowan joined #scheme
2018-10-08T19:36:23Z jcowan quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2018-10-08T19:43:09Z hugh_marera quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2018-10-08T19:54:30Z hugh_marera joined #scheme
2018-10-08T20:18:40Z JohnTalent: Zipheir, Have you experienced any problems with it?
2018-10-08T20:20:31Z nullcone joined #scheme
2018-10-08T20:22:59Z on_ion: didnt know tinyscheme was script-fu. i had installed it into my termux
2018-10-08T20:26:14Z Zenton quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2018-10-08T20:26:28Z Zenton joined #scheme
2018-10-08T20:31:14Z X-Scale quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
2018-10-08T20:32:53Z [X-Scale] joined #scheme
2018-10-08T20:33:11Z [X-Scale] is now known as X-Scale
2018-10-08T20:43:10Z robotoad quit (Quit: robotoad)
2018-10-08T20:57:48Z robotoad joined #scheme
2018-10-08T21:03:17Z Zipheir: JohnTalent: No hygenic macros, otherwise it's OK.
2018-10-08T21:03:37Z Zipheir: JohnTalent: And, obviously, not much in the way of library support.
2018-10-08T21:08:31Z karlguy joined #scheme
2018-10-08T21:13:19Z nullcone left #scheme
2018-10-08T21:17:38Z robotoad quit (Quit: robotoad)
2018-10-08T21:20:58Z JohnTalent: Zipheir, that's okay, i really want it for lisp macros.
2018-10-08T21:22:05Z rain2: I used tinyscheme
2018-10-08T21:22:15Z robotoad joined #scheme
2018-10-08T21:23:14Z nckx joined #scheme
2018-10-08T21:24:36Z alezost quit (Quit: I live in GuixSD <http://www.gnu.org/s/guix> and Emacs <http://www.gnu.org/s/emacs>)
2018-10-08T21:24:56Z badkins_ quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
2018-10-08T21:27:24Z hugh_marera_ joined #scheme
2018-10-08T21:29:12Z hugh_marera quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2018-10-08T21:29:13Z hugh_marera_ is now known as hugh_marera
2018-10-08T21:51:12Z InverseRhombus quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2018-10-08T21:53:54Z ArneBab quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2018-10-08T21:54:50Z ArneBab joined #scheme
2018-10-08T21:58:50Z robotoad quit (Quit: robotoad)
2018-10-08T22:02:22Z hugh_marera quit (Quit: hugh_marera)
2018-10-08T22:18:02Z robotoad joined #scheme
2018-10-08T22:20:24Z jcowan joined #scheme
2018-10-08T22:22:19Z erkin quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2018-10-08T22:36:10Z karlguy quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2018-10-08T22:36:58Z smazga quit (Quit: leaving)
2018-10-08T22:54:22Z r1b joined #scheme
2018-10-08T23:08:29Z r1b quit (Quit: r1b)
2018-10-08T23:08:54Z siraben: Tinyscheme is on termux, but it's missing a lot.  For instance, `define-syntax'.
2018-10-08T23:09:14Z siraben: Ah, as Zipheir said.
2018-10-08T23:10:08Z siraben: I think the Lisp that has the most support on Termux is Emacs Lisp.  I couldn't find Common Lisp libraries on Termux either.
2018-10-08T23:14:31Z badkins joined #scheme
2018-10-08T23:18:49Z razzy quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2018-10-08T23:19:03Z razzy joined #scheme
2018-10-08T23:19:54Z Ober: nothing an apt install can't get
2018-10-08T23:23:54Z razzy quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2018-10-08T23:24:09Z razzy joined #scheme
2018-10-08T23:32:53Z on_ion: emacs lisp is great. =)
2018-10-08T23:41:32Z JohnTalent quit (Quit: Leaving)
2018-10-08T23:42:54Z pjb quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2018-10-08T23:44:36Z siraben quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2018-10-09T00:03:22Z epony quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2018-10-09T00:07:13Z jcowan quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)
2018-10-09T00:07:34Z jcowan joined #scheme
2018-10-09T00:08:02Z jcowan quit (Client Quit)
2018-10-09T00:10:51Z epony joined #scheme
2018-10-09T00:15:52Z pjb joined #scheme
2018-10-09T00:21:31Z epony quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2018-10-09T00:34:49Z florilege quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2018-10-09T00:36:54Z florilege joined #scheme
2018-10-09T00:38:52Z montokapro joined #scheme
2018-10-09T00:38:57Z daviid quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2018-10-09T00:39:55Z epony joined #scheme
2018-10-09T00:44:33Z montokapro quit (Quit: Leaving)
2018-10-09T00:44:48Z montokapro joined #scheme
2018-10-09T00:47:12Z montokapro quit (Client Quit)
2018-10-09T00:47:25Z montokapro joined #scheme
2018-10-09T00:48:51Z pjb quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2018-10-09T00:50:32Z robotoad quit (Quit: robotoad)
2018-10-09T01:04:18Z jcowan joined #scheme
2018-10-09T01:07:42Z defanor quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2018-10-09T01:09:55Z defanor joined #scheme
2018-10-09T01:10:04Z lritter quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2018-10-09T01:12:08Z daviid joined #scheme
2018-10-09T01:16:48Z P1RATEZ joined #scheme
2018-10-09T01:21:25Z jcowan quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)
2018-10-09T01:22:57Z jcowan joined #scheme
2018-10-09T01:26:47Z lockywolf joined #scheme
2018-10-09T01:33:16Z jao quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2018-10-09T01:34:02Z jao joined #scheme
2018-10-09T01:45:36Z florilege quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2018-10-09T01:48:15Z jao quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2018-10-09T01:51:16Z robotoad joined #scheme
2018-10-09T02:01:59Z clnewman joined #scheme
2018-10-09T02:03:02Z robotoad quit (Quit: robotoad)
2018-10-09T02:18:23Z robotoad joined #scheme
2018-10-09T02:22:39Z terpri joined #scheme
2018-10-09T02:23:31Z clnewman quit (Quit: Page closed)
2018-10-09T02:37:32Z lockywolf quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2018-10-09T02:41:48Z jcowan quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)
2018-10-09T02:46:10Z pjb joined #scheme
2018-10-09T02:50:21Z karlguy joined #scheme
2018-10-09T02:53:56Z P1RATEZ quit
2018-10-09T03:07:08Z montokapro quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
2018-10-09T03:19:00Z pjb quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2018-10-09T03:30:53Z daviid quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2018-10-09T03:36:37Z klovett quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2018-10-09T03:36:39Z jcowan joined #scheme
2018-10-09T03:37:14Z klovett joined #scheme
2018-10-09T03:44:21Z Riastradh quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2018-10-09T03:46:00Z klovett quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2018-10-09T03:46:19Z klovett joined #scheme
2018-10-09T03:46:25Z pjb joined #scheme
2018-10-09T03:47:31Z karlguy quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2018-10-09T03:53:21Z linack joined #scheme
2018-10-09T04:03:53Z Zipheir quit (Quit: leaving)
2018-10-09T04:14:27Z johndoe231 joined #scheme
2018-10-09T04:18:57Z pjb quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2018-10-09T04:34:32Z Riastradh joined #scheme
2018-10-09T04:36:00Z jcowan quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)
2018-10-09T04:36:42Z jcowan joined #scheme
2018-10-09T04:36:42Z jcowan quit (Client Quit)
2018-10-09T04:59:54Z dieggsy left #scheme
2018-10-09T05:16:05Z brettgilio joined #scheme
2018-10-09T05:19:16Z brettgilio quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2018-10-09T05:29:16Z pjb joined #scheme
2018-10-09T05:34:54Z pjb quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2018-10-09T05:38:20Z lavaflow quit (Read error: No route to host)
2018-10-09T05:38:35Z lavaflow joined #scheme
2018-10-09T05:49:53Z linack quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2018-10-09T05:50:14Z mhd2018 joined #scheme
2018-10-09T06:08:18Z balkamos quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2018-10-09T06:08:32Z ravndal quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.2)
2018-10-09T06:14:08Z balkamos joined #scheme
2018-10-09T06:14:33Z flerovite quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
2018-10-09T06:34:59Z vimal2012 joined #scheme
2018-10-09T06:44:46Z vimal2012 quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2018-10-09T06:45:09Z vimal2012 joined #scheme
2018-10-09T07:01:05Z vimal2012 left #scheme
2018-10-09T07:14:24Z florilege joined #scheme
2018-10-09T07:20:38Z civodul joined #scheme
2018-10-09T07:29:07Z ssake quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2018-10-09T07:31:16Z ssake joined #scheme
2018-10-09T07:42:00Z johndoe231 quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2018-10-09T07:47:31Z johndoe231 joined #scheme
2018-10-09T08:07:54Z pierpal joined #scheme
2018-10-09T08:12:19Z nilg joined #scheme
2018-10-09T08:17:19Z pierpal quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
2018-10-09T08:19:01Z pierpal joined #scheme
2018-10-09T08:21:28Z webshinra quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2018-10-09T08:21:53Z pierpal quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2018-10-09T08:22:12Z pierpal joined #scheme
2018-10-09T08:23:31Z pierpal quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2018-10-09T08:24:30Z weinholt quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2018-10-09T08:25:08Z pierpal joined #scheme
2018-10-09T08:31:56Z pierpal quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2018-10-09T08:38:37Z greatscottttt joined #scheme
2018-10-09T08:40:06Z pierpal joined #scheme
2018-10-09T08:44:07Z johndoe231 quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2018-10-09T08:51:51Z pierpal quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2018-10-09T08:53:30Z florilege quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2018-10-09T08:54:23Z pierpal joined #scheme
2018-10-09T08:57:10Z civodul quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 26.1))
2018-10-09T08:59:45Z mhd2018 quit (Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…)
2018-10-09T09:12:23Z razzy: hope so
2018-10-09T09:20:29Z civodul joined #scheme
2018-10-09T09:21:01Z InverseRhombus joined #scheme
2018-10-09T09:21:34Z johndoe231 joined #scheme
2018-10-09T09:27:47Z eMBee quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
2018-10-09T09:33:47Z wasamasa: I remember at least two CHICKEN users on termux
2018-10-09T09:33:59Z wasamasa: the picolisp author lives in it (not a scheme though)
2018-10-09T10:00:06Z johndoe231 quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.2)
2018-10-09T10:02:37Z webshinra joined #scheme
2018-10-09T10:05:28Z florilege joined #scheme
2018-10-09T10:25:57Z jao joined #scheme
2018-10-09T10:57:40Z karlguy joined #scheme
2018-10-09T11:08:49Z ggole joined #scheme
2018-10-09T11:11:38Z karlguy quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
2018-10-09T11:26:31Z pierpal quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
2018-10-09T11:27:07Z pierpal joined #scheme
2018-10-09T11:27:31Z wigust- joined #scheme
2018-10-09T11:29:14Z wigust quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2018-10-09T11:42:08Z razzy quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2018-10-09T11:47:13Z razzy joined #scheme
2018-10-09T11:52:33Z siraben joined #scheme
2018-10-09T12:03:49Z pierpal quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
2018-10-09T12:17:50Z jcowan joined #scheme
2018-10-09T12:50:19Z jao quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
2018-10-09T12:51:10Z greatscottttt quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.9)
2018-10-09T12:55:22Z jcowan quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)
2018-10-09T12:56:57Z lritter joined #scheme
2018-10-09T12:58:25Z jcowan joined #scheme
2018-10-09T13:01:41Z florilege: hello
2018-10-09T13:01:47Z florilege: I have a problem with mit-scheme and serving http requests
2018-10-09T13:01:53Z florilege: if the client close the socket when the server is writing a response, I get this error:
2018-10-09T13:02:02Z florilege: ;The port #[i/o-port 19 for channels: #[channel 20] #[channel 20]] signalled an error:
2018-10-09T13:02:05Z florilege: The primitive channel-write, while executing the write system call, received the error: Broken pipe.
2018-10-09T13:02:08Z florilege: ;To continue, call RESTART with an option number:
2018-10-09T13:02:11Z florilege: ; (RESTART 1) => Return to read-eval-print level 1.
2018-10-09T13:02:13Z florilege: and the server loop breaks
2018-10-09T13:02:17Z florilege: I have tried to use "handle-broken-pipe" that can be found in src/runtime/syncproc.scm
2018-10-09T13:02:31Z florilege: I also tried to use "bind-condition-handler", but I'm probably doing something wrong because the error is passed no matter what
2018-10-09T13:02:52Z florilege: has anybody any idea how I can deal with this issue? Is there somewhere a working example of a "try catch" construction that would just continue execution even when broken pipe is signaled?
2018-10-09T13:20:26Z pierpal joined #scheme
2018-10-09T13:25:15Z InverseRhombus quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2018-10-09T13:26:14Z mhd2018 joined #scheme
2018-10-09T13:28:54Z johndoe231 joined #scheme
2018-10-09T13:35:39Z pierpal quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2018-10-09T13:39:38Z johndoe231 quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2018-10-09T14:02:57Z r1b joined #scheme
2018-10-09T14:10:52Z piccolo joined #scheme
2018-10-09T14:15:29Z jcowan quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)
2018-10-09T14:22:07Z piccolo quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2018-10-09T14:24:15Z weinholt joined #scheme
2018-10-09T14:25:35Z daviid joined #scheme
2018-10-09T14:49:05Z ozzloy quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2018-10-09T14:50:12Z piccolo joined #scheme
2018-10-09T14:53:22Z jao joined #scheme
2018-10-09T14:54:59Z dkrm quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.2)
2018-10-09T15:00:12Z epony quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2018-10-09T15:03:01Z TheGreekOwl quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2018-10-09T15:03:02Z dkrm joined #scheme
2018-10-09T15:05:24Z epony joined #scheme
2018-10-09T15:07:06Z jcowan joined #scheme
2018-10-09T15:07:35Z johndoe231 joined #scheme
2018-10-09T15:08:08Z alezost joined #scheme
2018-10-09T15:10:05Z epony quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2018-10-09T15:12:24Z smazga joined #scheme
2018-10-09T15:23:01Z epony joined #scheme
2018-10-09T15:29:34Z eagleflo_ left #scheme
2018-10-09T15:32:24Z eagleflo joined #scheme
2018-10-09T15:32:31Z erkin joined #scheme
2018-10-09T15:32:41Z johndoe231 quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
2018-10-09T15:35:23Z eagleflo quit (Client Quit)
2018-10-09T15:35:28Z thevishy joined #scheme
2018-10-09T15:35:49Z johndoe231 joined #scheme
2018-10-09T15:37:38Z johndoe231 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2018-10-09T15:38:42Z badkins_ joined #scheme
2018-10-09T15:42:03Z badkins quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2018-10-09T15:42:15Z eagleflo joined #scheme
2018-10-09T15:56:27Z Zenton quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2018-10-09T16:07:10Z jao quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
2018-10-09T16:14:16Z jao joined #scheme
2018-10-09T16:18:48Z robotoad quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2018-10-09T16:19:47Z robotoad joined #scheme
2018-10-09T16:29:22Z dieggsy joined #scheme
2018-10-09T16:32:22Z jcowan quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)
2018-10-09T16:33:23Z TheGreekOwl joined #scheme
2018-10-09T16:33:50Z TheGreekOwl quit (Client Quit)
2018-10-09T16:34:22Z pjb joined #scheme
2018-10-09T16:35:00Z jcowan joined #scheme
2018-10-09T16:41:18Z siraben quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2018-10-09T16:41:55Z ravndal joined #scheme
2018-10-09T16:50:56Z jcowan quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)
2018-10-09T16:53:44Z hugh_marera joined #scheme
2018-10-09T16:54:33Z civodul quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 26.1))
2018-10-09T17:01:22Z jcowan joined #scheme
2018-10-09T17:12:06Z ggole quit (Quit: ggole)
2018-10-09T17:13:34Z siraben joined #scheme
2018-10-09T17:19:33Z hugh_marera quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2018-10-09T17:21:27Z muelleme joined #scheme
2018-10-09T17:27:12Z alezost quit (Quit: I live in GuixSD <http://www.gnu.org/s/guix> and Emacs <http://www.gnu.org/s/emacs>)
2018-10-09T17:35:04Z karlguy joined #scheme
2018-10-09T17:35:36Z amz3 joined #scheme
2018-10-09T17:39:35Z amz3: rain2: you made neat list of papers, tx for sharing!
2018-10-09T17:39:56Z amz3: https://github.com/rain-1/continuations-study-group/wiki/Reading-List
2018-10-09T17:40:38Z amz3: +fav +watch
2018-10-09T17:40:45Z hugh_marera joined #scheme
2018-10-09T17:41:34Z muelleme quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
2018-10-09T17:44:22Z thevishy quit (Quit: thevishy)
2018-10-09T17:45:03Z hugh_marera quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2018-10-09T17:57:22Z karlguy quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2018-10-09T18:32:06Z jcowan: rain2: Indeed, amazingsauce
2018-10-09T18:33:23Z XTL quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
2018-10-09T18:36:30Z ineiros_ quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2018-10-09T18:44:45Z BitPuffin joined #scheme
2018-10-09T19:08:50Z lambda-11235 joined #scheme
2018-10-09T19:18:40Z jao quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2018-10-09T19:25:03Z tolja quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2018-10-09T19:29:09Z outtabwz joined #scheme
2018-10-09T19:30:29Z ngz joined #scheme
2018-10-09T20:03:03Z pierpal joined #scheme
2018-10-09T20:15:46Z Zenton joined #scheme
2018-10-09T20:21:22Z daviid quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
2018-10-09T20:22:04Z muelleme joined #scheme
2018-10-09T20:30:54Z muelleme quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2018-10-09T20:57:41Z lambda-11235 quit (Quit: Bye)
2018-10-09T20:58:05Z edgar-rft joined #scheme
2018-10-09T20:58:20Z pie_ joined #scheme
2018-10-09T21:24:01Z klovett_ joined #scheme
2018-10-09T21:25:11Z karlguy joined #scheme
2018-10-09T21:26:51Z klovett quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2018-10-09T21:28:07Z mwelt quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2018-10-09T21:56:33Z klovett joined #scheme
2018-10-09T22:00:03Z klovett_ quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2018-10-09T22:10:16Z jcowan quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)
2018-10-09T22:10:26Z jcowan joined #scheme
2018-10-09T22:10:49Z jcowan quit (Client Quit)
2018-10-09T22:13:25Z mhd2018 quit (Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…)
2018-10-09T22:23:27Z iskander quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
2018-10-09T22:24:03Z iskander joined #scheme
2018-10-09T22:29:19Z mhd2018 joined #scheme
2018-10-09T22:32:33Z erkin quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2018-10-09T22:38:08Z ngz quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
2018-10-09T22:45:20Z erkin joined #scheme
2018-10-09T22:51:43Z Zenton quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2018-10-09T22:51:47Z erkin quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2018-10-09T22:54:51Z BitPuffin quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2018-10-09T23:01:53Z robotoad quit (Quit: robotoad)
2018-10-09T23:22:56Z florilege quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2018-10-09T23:26:06Z robotoad joined #scheme
2018-10-09T23:29:51Z smazga quit (Quit: leaving)
2018-10-09T23:42:24Z daviid joined #scheme
2018-10-09T23:42:46Z siraben quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2018-10-09T23:52:37Z daviid` joined #scheme
2018-10-09T23:54:07Z daviid quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2018-10-09T23:55:25Z lritter quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2018-10-10T00:00:04Z daviid` quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2018-10-10T00:01:52Z on_ion quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.9.1)
2018-10-10T00:03:43Z r1b quit (Quit: r1b)
2018-10-10T00:21:29Z florilege joined #scheme
2018-10-10T00:22:06Z jcowan joined #scheme
2018-10-10T00:23:08Z r1b joined #scheme
2018-10-10T00:23:46Z daviid joined #scheme
2018-10-10T00:24:39Z pjb quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2018-10-10T00:28:50Z robotoad quit (Quit: robotoad)
2018-10-10T00:35:12Z florilege quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2018-10-10T00:36:28Z daviid quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2018-10-10T00:37:02Z florilege joined #scheme
2018-10-10T00:39:27Z pierpal quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2018-10-10T00:42:50Z daviid joined #scheme
2018-10-10T00:54:32Z brettgilio joined #scheme
2018-10-10T01:01:40Z pjb joined #scheme
2018-10-10T01:05:44Z mihkkal joined #scheme
2018-10-10T01:08:13Z mihkkal: Hi guys. Currently pulling my hair out over this problem that I just can't seem to figure out although it is probably a trivial one. I have a list of integers (in ascending order) and I need to count the number of overlaps. Any suggestions? (here is an example input for reference https://pastebin.com/7cAkcA5Q)
2018-10-10T01:12:02Z mihkkal: By overlap I mean that (> (car lst) (cdar lst)) should evaluate to a boolean, #t if overlapping and #f if not
2018-10-10T01:12:22Z brettgilio quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2018-10-10T01:13:47Z gwatt: mihkkal: well, if the order is ascending there shouldn't be any overlaps - for that definition of overlap
2018-10-10T01:17:12Z mihkkal: oh yea right, I forgot about that part. I sorted it and then mapped each element in the sorted list, sorry about that. Any way, the order is irrelevant, I'm trying to figure out how I would check if there are overlaps.
2018-10-10T01:17:41Z mihkkal: or actually count the number of overlaps, but yea.
2018-10-10T01:17:58Z gwatt: What have you tried?
2018-10-10T01:18:36Z r1b quit (Quit: r1b)
2018-10-10T01:24:35Z mihkkal: Tried to construct a recursive function that took lst and val as input parameters where val was (cdar lst) and running a conditional to check for (> (car lst) val). If #t then I would cons (car lst) with a new function call. If #f I tried to just run the function again with a reduced lst. Obviously there is an issue where you might try to fetch an index not in the lst, so that didn't work.
2018-10-10T01:25:45Z mihkkal: the new function call of course being supplied with a reduced lst and the next value (cdar lst)
2018-10-10T01:28:19Z gwatt: Any particular reason you're passing (cdar lst) as "val" ?
2018-10-10T01:29:37Z Khisanth quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
2018-10-10T01:32:27Z karlguy quit (Quit: Leaving)
2018-10-10T01:34:24Z pjb quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2018-10-10T01:37:32Z X-Scale quit (*.net *.split)
2018-10-10T01:37:32Z Kkiro_ quit (*.net *.split)
2018-10-10T01:37:32Z amz3 quit (*.net *.split)
2018-10-10T01:37:32Z defanor quit (*.net *.split)
2018-10-10T01:37:32Z Labu quit (*.net *.split)
2018-10-10T01:37:32Z drot quit (*.net *.split)
2018-10-10T01:37:32Z blt quit (*.net *.split)
2018-10-10T01:37:32Z M_D_K quit (*.net *.split)
2018-10-10T01:37:32Z dieggsy quit (*.net *.split)
2018-10-10T01:37:32Z exit70 quit (*.net *.split)
2018-10-10T01:37:32Z rotty quit (*.net *.split)
2018-10-10T01:37:32Z stux16777216Away quit (*.net *.split)
2018-10-10T01:37:32Z GGMethos quit (*.net *.split)
2018-10-10T01:37:32Z ecraven quit (*.net *.split)
2018-10-10T01:37:32Z kwmiebach quit (*.net *.split)
2018-10-10T01:37:33Z gko quit (*.net *.split)
2018-10-10T01:37:33Z GreaseMonkey quit (*.net *.split)
2018-10-10T01:37:33Z weltung quit (*.net *.split)
2018-10-10T01:37:33Z outtabwz quit (*.net *.split)
2018-10-10T01:37:33Z ravndal quit (*.net *.split)
2018-10-10T01:37:33Z eagleflo quit (*.net *.split)
2018-10-10T01:37:33Z epony quit (*.net *.split)
2018-10-10T01:37:33Z nilg quit (*.net *.split)
2018-10-10T01:37:33Z lavaflow quit (*.net *.split)
2018-10-10T01:37:33Z gabot quit (*.net *.split)
2018-10-10T01:37:33Z DGASAU quit (*.net *.split)
2018-10-10T01:37:33Z jim quit (*.net *.split)
2018-10-10T01:37:33Z ski quit (*.net *.split)
2018-10-10T01:37:33Z davl quit (*.net *.split)
2018-10-10T01:37:33Z keep_learning quit (*.net *.split)
2018-10-10T01:37:33Z remix2000 quit (*.net *.split)
2018-10-10T01:37:33Z yosafbridge` quit (*.net *.split)
2018-10-10T01:37:33Z manumanumanu quit (*.net *.split)
2018-10-10T01:37:33Z Kooda quit (*.net *.split)
2018-10-10T01:37:33Z razzy quit (*.net *.split)
2018-10-10T01:37:33Z kilimanjaro quit (*.net *.split)
2018-10-10T01:37:34Z mats quit (*.net *.split)
2018-10-10T01:37:34Z Gnuxie[m] quit (*.net *.split)
2018-10-10T01:37:34Z mbakke quit (*.net *.split)
2018-10-10T01:37:34Z remix2000[m] quit (*.net *.split)
2018-10-10T01:37:34Z iskander quit (*.net *.split)
2018-10-10T01:37:34Z dkrm quit (*.net *.split)
2018-10-10T01:37:34Z ArneBab quit (*.net *.split)
2018-10-10T01:37:34Z nckx quit (*.net *.split)
2018-10-10T01:37:34Z turbofail quit (*.net *.split)
2018-10-10T01:37:34Z snw quit (*.net *.split)
2018-10-10T01:37:34Z scroll2 quit (*.net *.split)
2018-10-10T01:37:34Z Duns_Scrotus quit (*.net *.split)
2018-10-10T01:37:34Z PyroLagus quit (*.net *.split)
2018-10-10T01:37:35Z clog quit (*.net *.split)
2018-10-10T01:37:35Z wasamasa quit (*.net *.split)
2018-10-10T01:37:35Z lpsmith quit (*.net *.split)
2018-10-10T01:37:35Z sz0 quit (*.net *.split)
2018-10-10T01:37:35Z carc quit (*.net *.split)
2018-10-10T01:37:35Z DeeEff quit (*.net *.split)
2018-10-10T01:37:35Z Kryo quit (*.net *.split)
2018-10-10T01:37:35Z fadein quit (*.net *.split)
2018-10-10T01:37:35Z fgudin quit (*.net *.split)
2018-10-10T01:37:35Z nisstyre quit (*.net *.split)
2018-10-10T01:37:35Z ArthurAGleckler[ quit (*.net *.split)
2018-10-10T01:37:35Z ManDay[m] quit (*.net *.split)
2018-10-10T01:37:36Z Menche quit (*.net *.split)
2018-10-10T01:37:36Z asumu quit (*.net *.split)
2018-10-10T01:37:36Z mihkkal quit (*.net *.split)
2018-10-10T01:37:36Z pie_ quit (*.net *.split)
2018-10-10T01:37:36Z weinholt quit (*.net *.split)
2018-10-10T01:37:36Z Riastradh quit (*.net *.split)
2018-10-10T01:37:36Z m1dnight_ quit (*.net *.split)
2018-10-10T01:37:36Z cmaloney quit (*.net *.split)
2018-10-10T01:37:36Z ivanshmakov quit (*.net *.split)
2018-10-10T01:37:36Z sethalves quit (*.net *.split)
2018-10-10T01:37:36Z tomasmu quit (*.net *.split)
2018-10-10T01:37:36Z tautologico quit (*.net *.split)
2018-10-10T01:37:36Z profan quit (*.net *.split)
2018-10-10T01:37:36Z Ober quit (*.net *.split)
2018-10-10T01:37:36Z davexunit quit (*.net *.split)
2018-10-10T01:37:36Z dsp quit (*.net *.split)
2018-10-10T01:37:36Z Combinatorialist quit (*.net *.split)
2018-10-10T01:37:36Z balkamos quit (*.net *.split)
2018-10-10T01:37:36Z acarrico quit (*.net *.split)
2018-10-10T01:37:36Z ventonegro quit (*.net *.split)
2018-10-10T01:37:36Z rain2 quit (*.net *.split)
2018-10-10T01:37:36Z SirDayBat quit (*.net *.split)
2018-10-10T01:37:36Z energizer quit (*.net *.split)
2018-10-10T01:37:36Z fowlduck quit (*.net *.split)
2018-10-10T01:37:36Z szgyg quit (*.net *.split)
2018-10-10T01:37:36Z bheesham quit (*.net *.split)
2018-10-10T01:37:36Z physpi quit (*.net *.split)
2018-10-10T01:37:37Z hook54321 quit (*.net *.split)
2018-10-10T01:37:37Z terrorjack quit (*.net *.split)
2018-10-10T01:37:37Z samth quit (*.net *.split)
2018-10-10T01:37:37Z greghendershott quit (*.net *.split)
2018-10-10T01:37:37Z rjungemann quit (*.net *.split)
2018-10-10T01:37:37Z LeoNerd quit (*.net *.split)
2018-10-10T01:37:37Z duncanm quit (*.net *.split)
2018-10-10T01:37:37Z ec quit (*.net *.split)
2018-10-10T01:37:37Z stephe quit (*.net *.split)
2018-10-10T01:37:37Z kbtr quit (*.net *.split)
2018-10-10T01:37:37Z terpri quit (*.net *.split)
2018-10-10T01:37:37Z hugo quit (*.net *.split)
2018-10-10T01:37:37Z `micro quit (*.net *.split)
2018-10-10T01:37:37Z charh quit (*.net *.split)
2018-10-10T01:37:37Z erratic quit (*.net *.split)
2018-10-10T01:37:37Z f8l quit (*.net *.split)
2018-10-10T01:37:37Z snits_ quit (*.net *.split)
2018-10-10T01:37:37Z cibs quit (*.net *.split)
2018-10-10T01:37:37Z pilcrow quit (*.net *.split)
2018-10-10T01:37:37Z dan64 quit (*.net *.split)
2018-10-10T01:37:37Z groovy2shoes quit (*.net *.split)
2018-10-10T01:37:37Z catern quit (*.net *.split)
2018-10-10T01:37:37Z ByronJohnson quit (*.net *.split)
2018-10-10T01:37:37Z cemerick quit (*.net *.split)
2018-10-10T01:37:37Z drewc quit (*.net *.split)
2018-10-10T01:37:37Z deuill quit (*.net *.split)
2018-10-10T01:37:38Z cky quit (*.net *.split)
2018-10-10T01:37:38Z f32ff quit (*.net *.split)
2018-10-10T01:37:38Z jyc quit (*.net *.split)
2018-10-10T01:37:38Z fizzie quit (*.net *.split)
2018-10-10T01:37:38Z ghostyy quit (*.net *.split)
2018-10-10T01:37:38Z emma_ quit (*.net *.split)
2018-10-10T01:37:38Z proksi[m] quit (*.net *.split)
2018-10-10T01:37:38Z qu1j0t3 quit (*.net *.split)
2018-10-10T01:37:38Z kjeldahl quit (*.net *.split)
2018-10-10T01:37:39Z abbe quit (*.net *.split)
2018-10-10T01:37:39Z plll[m] quit (*.net *.split)
2018-10-10T01:37:39Z spectrumgomas[m] quit (*.net *.split)
2018-10-10T01:37:39Z willghatch[m] quit (*.net *.split)
2018-10-10T01:37:39Z rudybot quit (*.net *.split)
2018-10-10T01:37:39Z rann quit (*.net *.split)
2018-10-10T01:37:39Z sudden quit (*.net *.split)
2018-10-10T01:37:39Z dpk quit (*.net *.split)
2018-10-10T01:37:39Z florilege quit (*.net *.split)
2018-10-10T01:37:39Z ssake quit (*.net *.split)
2018-10-10T01:37:39Z aeth quit (*.net *.split)
2018-10-10T01:37:39Z emar quit (*.net *.split)
2018-10-10T01:37:39Z z0d quit (*.net *.split)
2018-10-10T01:37:39Z ft quit (*.net *.split)
2018-10-10T01:37:39Z emma quit (*.net *.split)
2018-10-10T01:37:39Z elly quit (*.net *.split)
2018-10-10T01:37:40Z yumh quit (*.net *.split)
2018-10-10T01:37:40Z jp quit (*.net *.split)
2018-10-10T01:37:40Z ohama quit (*.net *.split)
2018-10-10T01:37:40Z vxe_ quit (*.net *.split)
2018-10-10T01:37:40Z payphone quit (*.net *.split)
2018-10-10T01:37:40Z stux|work quit (*.net *.split)
2018-10-10T01:37:40Z pyro- quit (*.net *.split)
2018-10-10T01:37:40Z mrm quit (*.net *.split)
2018-10-10T01:37:40Z jcowan quit (*.net *.split)
2018-10-10T01:37:40Z mhd2018 quit (*.net *.split)
2018-10-10T01:37:40Z klovett quit (*.net *.split)
2018-10-10T01:37:40Z badkins_ quit (*.net *.split)
2018-10-10T01:37:40Z wigust- quit (*.net *.split)
2018-10-10T01:37:40Z dmiles quit (*.net *.split)
2018-10-10T01:37:40Z cortisol quit (*.net *.split)
2018-10-10T01:37:40Z hive-mind quit (*.net *.split)
2018-10-10T01:37:40Z tessier quit (*.net *.split)
2018-10-10T01:37:40Z evhan quit (*.net *.split)
2018-10-10T01:37:40Z gnomon quit (*.net *.split)
2018-10-10T01:37:40Z reverse_light quit (*.net *.split)
2018-10-10T01:37:40Z ng0 quit (*.net *.split)
2018-10-10T01:37:41Z cmatei quit (*.net *.split)
2018-10-10T01:37:41Z emacsomancer quit (*.net *.split)
2018-10-10T01:37:41Z wingo quit (*.net *.split)
2018-10-10T01:37:41Z piccolo quit (*.net *.split)
2018-10-10T01:37:41Z pflanze quit (*.net *.split)
2018-10-10T01:37:41Z Blkt_ quit (*.net *.split)
2018-10-10T01:37:41Z averell quit (*.net *.split)
2018-10-10T01:37:41Z mario-goulart quit (*.net *.split)
2018-10-10T01:37:41Z cross quit (*.net *.split)
2018-10-10T01:37:41Z gwatt quit (*.net *.split)
2018-10-10T01:37:41Z pchrist quit (*.net *.split)
2018-10-10T01:37:41Z DerGuteMoritz quit (*.net *.split)
2018-10-10T01:37:41Z Guest40074 quit (*.net *.split)
2018-10-10T01:37:41Z copec quit (*.net *.split)
2018-10-10T01:42:51Z aeth joined #scheme
2018-10-10T01:42:51Z mrm joined #scheme
2018-10-10T01:42:51Z pyro- joined #scheme
2018-10-10T01:42:51Z payphone joined #scheme
2018-10-10T01:42:51Z vxe_ joined #scheme
2018-10-10T01:42:51Z ohama joined #scheme
2018-10-10T01:42:51Z yumh joined #scheme
2018-10-10T01:42:51Z f8l joined #scheme
2018-10-10T01:43:13Z carc joined #scheme
2018-10-10T01:43:13Z amz3 joined #scheme
2018-10-10T01:43:13Z dieggsy joined #scheme
2018-10-10T01:43:13Z defanor joined #scheme
2018-10-10T01:43:13Z Labu joined #scheme
2018-10-10T01:43:13Z drot joined #scheme
2018-10-10T01:43:13Z blt joined #scheme
2018-10-10T01:43:13Z M_D_K joined #scheme
2018-10-10T01:43:13Z exit70 joined #scheme
2018-10-10T01:43:13Z rotty joined #scheme
2018-10-10T01:43:13Z stux16777216Away joined #scheme
2018-10-10T01:43:13Z GGMethos joined #scheme
2018-10-10T01:43:13Z ecraven joined #scheme
2018-10-10T01:43:13Z kwmiebach joined #scheme
2018-10-10T01:43:13Z gko joined #scheme
2018-10-10T01:43:13Z GreaseMonkey joined #scheme
2018-10-10T01:43:13Z weltung joined #scheme
2018-10-10T01:43:24Z stux|work joined #scheme
2018-10-10T01:43:24Z wasa joined #scheme
2018-10-10T01:43:24Z jcowan joined #scheme
2018-10-10T01:43:24Z mhd2018 joined #scheme
2018-10-10T01:43:24Z klovett joined #scheme
2018-10-10T01:43:24Z badkins_ joined #scheme
2018-10-10T01:43:24Z wigust- joined #scheme
2018-10-10T01:43:24Z dmiles joined #scheme
2018-10-10T01:43:24Z cortisol joined #scheme
2018-10-10T01:43:24Z hive-mind joined #scheme
2018-10-10T01:43:24Z tessier joined #scheme
2018-10-10T01:43:24Z evhan joined #scheme
2018-10-10T01:43:24Z gnomon joined #scheme
2018-10-10T01:43:24Z reverse_light joined #scheme
2018-10-10T01:43:24Z ng0 joined #scheme
2018-10-10T01:43:24Z cmatei joined #scheme
2018-10-10T01:43:24Z emacsomancer joined #scheme
2018-10-10T01:43:24Z wingo joined #scheme
2018-10-10T01:43:26Z Khisanth joined #scheme
2018-10-10T01:43:34Z fadein joined #scheme
2018-10-10T01:43:34Z fgudin joined #scheme
2018-10-10T01:43:34Z nisstyre joined #scheme
2018-10-10T01:43:34Z Menche joined #scheme
2018-10-10T01:43:34Z ArthurAGleckler[ joined #scheme
2018-10-10T01:43:34Z ManDay[m] joined #scheme
2018-10-10T01:43:34Z asumu joined #scheme
2018-10-10T01:44:11Z DeeEff1 joined #scheme
2018-10-10T01:44:11Z groovy2shoes joined #scheme
2018-10-10T01:44:11Z catern joined #scheme
2018-10-10T01:44:11Z ByronJohnson joined #scheme
2018-10-10T01:44:11Z cemerick joined #scheme
2018-10-10T01:44:11Z drewc joined #scheme
2018-10-10T01:44:11Z deuill joined #scheme
2018-10-10T01:44:11Z cky joined #scheme
2018-10-10T01:44:11Z f32ff joined #scheme
2018-10-10T01:44:11Z jyc joined #scheme
2018-10-10T01:44:11Z fizzie joined #scheme
2018-10-10T01:44:11Z ghostyy joined #scheme
2018-10-10T01:44:26Z mihkkal joined #scheme
2018-10-10T01:44:26Z pie_ joined #scheme
2018-10-10T01:44:26Z weinholt joined #scheme
2018-10-10T01:44:26Z Riastradh joined #scheme
2018-10-10T01:44:26Z m1dnight_ joined #scheme
2018-10-10T01:44:26Z cmaloney joined #scheme
2018-10-10T01:44:26Z ivanshmakov joined #scheme
2018-10-10T01:44:26Z sethalves joined #scheme
2018-10-10T01:44:26Z tomasmu joined #scheme
2018-10-10T01:44:26Z tautologico joined #scheme
2018-10-10T01:44:26Z profan joined #scheme
2018-10-10T01:44:26Z Ober joined #scheme
2018-10-10T01:44:26Z davexunit joined #scheme
2018-10-10T01:44:26Z dsp joined #scheme
2018-10-10T01:44:26Z Combinatorialist joined #scheme
2018-10-10T01:44:29Z Kkiro_ joined #scheme
2018-10-10T01:44:42Z pflanze joined #scheme
2018-10-10T01:44:42Z Blkt_ joined #scheme
2018-10-10T01:44:42Z averell joined #scheme
2018-10-10T01:44:42Z mario-goulart joined #scheme
2018-10-10T01:44:42Z cross joined #scheme
2018-10-10T01:44:42Z gwatt joined #scheme
2018-10-10T01:44:42Z pchrist joined #scheme
2018-10-10T01:44:42Z DerGuteMoritz joined #scheme
2018-10-10T01:44:42Z Guest40074 joined #scheme
2018-10-10T01:44:42Z copec joined #scheme
2018-10-10T01:44:46Z ssake joined #scheme
2018-10-10T01:44:56Z piccolo joined #scheme
2018-10-10T01:44:56Z snow_bckspc joined #scheme
2018-10-10T01:44:56Z PyroLagus_ joined #scheme
2018-10-10T01:44:56Z Duns_Scrotus_ joined #scheme
2018-10-10T01:44:56Z sz0_ joined #scheme
2018-10-10T01:44:56Z dkrm_ joined #scheme
2018-10-10T01:44:56Z scroll2_ joined #scheme
2018-10-10T01:44:56Z balkamos joined #scheme
2018-10-10T01:44:56Z acarrico joined #scheme
2018-10-10T01:44:56Z ventonegro joined #scheme
2018-10-10T01:44:56Z rain2 joined #scheme
2018-10-10T01:44:56Z SirDayBat joined #scheme
2018-10-10T01:44:56Z energizer joined #scheme
2018-10-10T01:44:56Z fowlduck joined #scheme
2018-10-10T01:44:56Z szgyg joined #scheme
2018-10-10T01:44:56Z bheesham joined #scheme
2018-10-10T01:44:56Z physpi joined #scheme
2018-10-10T01:44:56Z hook54321 joined #scheme
2018-10-10T01:44:56Z terrorjack joined #scheme
2018-10-10T01:44:56Z samth joined #scheme
2018-10-10T01:44:56Z rjungemann joined #scheme
2018-10-10T01:44:56Z greghendershott joined #scheme
2018-10-10T01:44:56Z LeoNerd joined #scheme
2018-10-10T01:44:56Z duncanm joined #scheme
2018-10-10T01:44:56Z stephe joined #scheme
2018-10-10T01:44:56Z ec joined #scheme
2018-10-10T01:44:56Z kbtr joined #scheme
2018-10-10T01:45:14Z razzy joined #scheme
2018-10-10T01:45:14Z kilimanjaro joined #scheme
2018-10-10T01:45:14Z mats joined #scheme
2018-10-10T01:45:14Z mbakke joined #scheme
2018-10-10T01:45:14Z remix2000[m] joined #scheme
2018-10-10T01:45:14Z Gnuxie[m] joined #scheme
2018-10-10T01:45:20Z florilege joined #scheme
2018-10-10T01:45:20Z outtabwz joined #scheme
2018-10-10T01:45:20Z ravndal joined #scheme
2018-10-10T01:45:20Z eagleflo joined #scheme
2018-10-10T01:45:20Z nilg joined #scheme
2018-10-10T01:45:20Z lavaflow joined #scheme
2018-10-10T01:45:20Z gabot joined #scheme
2018-10-10T01:45:20Z DGASAU joined #scheme
2018-10-10T01:45:20Z ski joined #scheme
2018-10-10T01:45:20Z davl joined #scheme
2018-10-10T01:45:20Z keep_learning joined #scheme
2018-10-10T01:45:20Z remix2000 joined #scheme
2018-10-10T01:45:20Z yosafbridge` joined #scheme
2018-10-10T01:45:20Z manumanumanu joined #scheme
2018-10-10T01:45:20Z Kooda joined #scheme
2018-10-10T01:45:23Z ft joined #scheme
2018-10-10T01:45:26Z kjeldahl joined #scheme
2018-10-10T01:45:26Z abbe joined #scheme
2018-10-10T01:45:26Z rann joined #scheme
2018-10-10T01:45:26Z plll[m] joined #scheme
2018-10-10T01:45:26Z spectrumgomas[m] joined #scheme
2018-10-10T01:45:26Z willghatch[m] joined #scheme
2018-10-10T01:45:26Z rudybot joined #scheme
2018-10-10T01:45:26Z sudden joined #scheme
2018-10-10T01:45:34Z emma_ joined #scheme
2018-10-10T01:45:34Z proksi[m] joined #scheme
2018-10-10T01:45:34Z qu1j0t3 joined #scheme
2018-10-10T01:45:38Z emma joined #scheme
2018-10-10T01:45:45Z terpri joined #scheme
2018-10-10T01:45:45Z hugo joined #scheme
2018-10-10T01:45:45Z `micro joined #scheme
2018-10-10T01:45:45Z charh joined #scheme
2018-10-10T01:45:45Z snits_ joined #scheme
2018-10-10T01:45:45Z cibs joined #scheme
2018-10-10T01:45:45Z pilcrow joined #scheme
2018-10-10T01:45:45Z dan64 joined #scheme
2018-10-10T01:45:54Z z0d joined #scheme
2018-10-10T01:45:56Z rudybot: la la la
2018-10-10T01:45:57Z piccolo quit (Max SendQ exceeded)
2018-10-10T01:46:05Z aeth quit (Client Quit)
2018-10-10T01:46:46Z X-Scale joined #scheme
2018-10-10T01:47:40Z emar joined #scheme
2018-10-10T01:48:36Z X-Scale is now known as Guest88437
2018-10-10T01:48:37Z Khisanth is now known as Guest13389
2018-10-10T01:48:41Z f8l is now known as Guest86186
2018-10-10T01:48:42Z physpi quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2018-10-10T01:48:43Z ec quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2018-10-10T01:48:44Z piccolo joined #scheme
2018-10-10T01:48:46Z carc quit (Changing host)
2018-10-10T01:48:46Z carc joined #scheme
2018-10-10T01:48:47Z wasa quit (Changing host)
2018-10-10T01:48:47Z wasa joined #scheme
2018-10-10T01:48:59Z jim joined #scheme
2018-10-10T01:49:06Z lpsmith joined #scheme
2018-10-10T01:49:15Z ArneBab joined #scheme
2018-10-10T01:49:15Z ArneBab quit (Changing host)
2018-10-10T01:49:15Z ArneBab joined #scheme
2018-10-10T01:49:18Z physpi joined #scheme
2018-10-10T01:49:19Z ec joined #scheme
2018-10-10T01:49:24Z aeth joined #scheme
2018-10-10T01:49:27Z elly joined #scheme
2018-10-10T01:49:56Z pie_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2018-10-10T01:49:59Z iskander joined #scheme
2018-10-10T01:51:34Z DeeEff1 quit (Changing host)
2018-10-10T01:51:35Z DeeEff1 joined #scheme
2018-10-10T01:51:43Z scroll2_ quit (Changing host)
2018-10-10T01:51:43Z scroll2_ joined #scheme
2018-10-10T01:51:43Z sz0_ quit (Changing host)
2018-10-10T01:51:43Z sz0_ joined #scheme
2018-10-10T01:51:43Z Duns_Scrotus_ quit (Changing host)
2018-10-10T01:51:43Z Duns_Scrotus_ joined #scheme
2018-10-10T01:51:58Z physpi quit (Changing host)
2018-10-10T01:51:58Z physpi joined #scheme
2018-10-10T01:51:58Z ec quit (Changing host)
2018-10-10T01:51:58Z ec joined #scheme
2018-10-10T01:52:31Z dpk joined #scheme
2018-10-10T01:56:40Z montokapro joined #scheme
2018-10-10T01:57:02Z mihkkal quit (Quit: Leaving)
2018-10-10T02:00:00Z emma_ quit (Quit: leaving)
2018-10-10T02:00:31Z emma quit (Changing host)
2018-10-10T02:00:31Z emma joined #scheme
2018-10-10T02:01:55Z badkins_ quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2018-10-10T02:02:01Z Duns_Scrotus_ quit
2018-10-10T02:02:20Z Duns_Scrotus_ joined #scheme
2018-10-10T02:02:44Z Duns_Scrotus_ left #scheme
2018-10-10T02:07:11Z jcowan quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)
2018-10-10T02:07:52Z brettgilio joined #scheme
2018-10-10T02:11:55Z erratic joined #scheme
2018-10-10T02:17:51Z robotoad joined #scheme
2018-10-10T02:18:20Z Kryo joined #scheme
2018-10-10T02:19:04Z nckx joined #scheme
2018-10-10T02:23:01Z jp joined #scheme
2018-10-10T02:45:15Z jcowan joined #scheme
2018-10-10T02:48:30Z jcowan_ joined #scheme
2018-10-10T02:48:30Z jcowan quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2018-10-10T02:52:29Z daviid quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
2018-10-10T02:59:48Z lavaflow quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2018-10-10T03:02:06Z lavaflow joined #scheme
2018-10-10T03:02:32Z lockywolf joined #scheme
2018-10-10T03:08:16Z linack joined #scheme
2018-10-10T03:12:03Z r1b joined #scheme
2018-10-10T03:31:37Z pjb joined #scheme
2018-10-10T03:33:51Z florilege quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2018-10-10T03:34:38Z clog joined #scheme
2018-10-10T03:42:08Z brettgilio quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2018-10-10T03:54:53Z epony joined #scheme
2018-10-10T03:59:57Z r1b quit (Quit: r1b)
2018-10-10T04:05:04Z pjb quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2018-10-10T04:11:11Z tolja joined #scheme
2018-10-10T04:20:37Z linack quit (Quit: Leaving)
2018-10-10T04:23:32Z florilege joined #scheme
2018-10-10T04:26:43Z montokapro quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2018-10-10T04:28:38Z jcowan_ quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)
2018-10-10T04:29:42Z tautologico quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity)
2018-10-10T04:31:56Z pjb joined #scheme
2018-10-10T04:41:16Z lockywolf quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
2018-10-10T04:49:50Z mhd2018 quit (Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com)
2018-10-10T05:04:36Z pjb quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2018-10-10T05:05:03Z niklasl quit (Quit: Nettalk6 - www.ntalk.de)
2018-10-10T05:08:19Z niklasl joined #scheme
2018-10-10T05:16:46Z nilg quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2018-10-10T05:57:24Z florilege quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2018-10-10T06:04:56Z robotoad quit (Quit: robotoad)
2018-10-10T06:08:45Z florilege joined #scheme
2018-10-10T06:10:03Z klovett quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2018-10-10T06:10:49Z klovett joined #scheme
2018-10-10T06:19:13Z florilege quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2018-10-10T06:50:16Z pilcrow quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2018-10-10T06:53:16Z pilcrow joined #scheme
2018-10-10T07:07:32Z stux16777216Away quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2018-10-10T07:07:42Z stux16777216Away joined #scheme
2018-10-10T07:08:14Z kwmiebach quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2018-10-10T07:08:16Z weltung quit (Write error: Connection reset by peer)
2018-10-10T07:08:20Z exit70 quit (Write error: Connection reset by peer)
2018-10-10T07:08:25Z weltung joined #scheme
2018-10-10T07:08:33Z carc quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2018-10-10T07:08:33Z ecraven quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2018-10-10T07:08:35Z ArneBab quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2018-10-10T07:08:35Z kwmiebach joined #scheme
2018-10-10T07:08:45Z exit70 joined #scheme
2018-10-10T07:08:56Z GreaseMonkey quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2018-10-10T07:09:39Z iskander quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2018-10-10T07:10:12Z defanor quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2018-10-10T07:10:12Z rotty quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2018-10-10T07:10:12Z gko quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2018-10-10T07:10:30Z ecraven joined #scheme
2018-10-10T07:10:32Z carc joined #scheme
2018-10-10T07:10:34Z greaser|q joined #scheme
2018-10-10T07:10:41Z defanor joined #scheme
2018-10-10T07:10:45Z GGMethos quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2018-10-10T07:10:58Z rotty joined #scheme
2018-10-10T07:11:12Z iskander joined #scheme
2018-10-10T07:11:32Z ArneBab joined #scheme
2018-10-10T07:11:32Z ArneBab quit (Changing host)
2018-10-10T07:11:32Z ArneBab joined #scheme
2018-10-10T07:11:34Z gko joined #scheme
2018-10-10T07:13:08Z GGMethos joined #scheme
2018-10-10T07:34:26Z ArneBab quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2018-10-10T07:35:30Z carc quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2018-10-10T07:36:03Z gko quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2018-10-10T07:37:07Z ArneBab joined #scheme
2018-10-10T07:37:55Z gko joined #scheme
2018-10-10T07:39:35Z carc joined #scheme
2018-10-10T07:45:10Z pjb joined #scheme
2018-10-10T08:02:02Z pie_ joined #scheme
2018-10-10T08:04:16Z greatscottttt joined #scheme
2018-10-10T08:10:34Z civodul joined #scheme
2018-10-10T08:19:42Z pjb quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2018-10-10T08:33:00Z florilege joined #scheme
2018-10-10T08:39:10Z Zenton joined #scheme
2018-10-10T08:44:22Z florilege quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2018-10-10T09:06:36Z pilcrow quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2018-10-10T09:09:04Z pilcrow joined #scheme
2018-10-10T09:27:19Z johndoe231 joined #scheme
2018-10-10T09:37:23Z wasa is now known as wasamasa
2018-10-10T09:37:34Z wasamasa is now known as {{{
2018-10-10T09:37:36Z {{{ is now known as bagelmasa
2018-10-10T09:37:39Z bagelmasa is now known as wasa
2018-10-10T09:37:40Z wasa is now known as }}}
2018-10-10T09:38:54Z }}} is now known as wasamasa
2018-10-10T09:42:33Z johndoe231 quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2018-10-10T09:44:49Z johndoe231 joined #scheme
2018-10-10T09:50:53Z johndoe231 quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2018-10-10T10:03:47Z thevishy joined #scheme
2018-10-10T10:16:38Z pjb joined #scheme
2018-10-10T10:16:55Z siraben joined #scheme
2018-10-10T10:33:41Z ecraven: ;)
2018-10-10T10:37:28Z thevishy quit (Quit: thevishy)
2018-10-10T10:49:42Z pjb quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2018-10-10T10:53:09Z thevishy joined #scheme
2018-10-10T10:58:55Z jcowan_ joined #scheme
2018-10-10T11:25:44Z thevishy quit (Quit: thevishy)
2018-10-10T11:35:47Z charh quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2018-10-10T11:50:13Z wigust joined #scheme
2018-10-10T11:53:04Z wigust- quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
2018-10-10T12:07:19Z johndoe231 joined #scheme
2018-10-10T12:08:53Z GoldRin joined #scheme
2018-10-10T12:12:08Z johndoe231 quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2018-10-10T12:13:00Z johndoe231 joined #scheme
2018-10-10T12:15:25Z epony quit (Quit: QUIT)
2018-10-10T12:15:28Z pjb joined #scheme
2018-10-10T12:16:06Z epony joined #scheme
2018-10-10T12:17:44Z siraben: Hm.  Trying to cite R5RS in BibLaTeX results in a strange formatting error
2018-10-10T12:17:47Z siraben: Source: https://pastebin.com/raw/NkGrQycp
2018-10-10T12:17:54Z siraben: Result: https://i.imgur.com/AzAg8ev.png
2018-10-10T12:18:04Z siraben: I wonder what I'm doing wrong?
2018-10-10T12:21:46Z thevishy joined #scheme
2018-10-10T12:34:46Z thevishy quit (Quit: thevishy)
2018-10-10T12:35:45Z epony quit (Quit: QUIT)
2018-10-10T12:36:04Z GoldRin quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2018-10-10T12:37:14Z GoldRin joined #scheme
2018-10-10T12:38:59Z GoldRin quit (Client Quit)
2018-10-10T12:39:16Z GoldRin joined #scheme
2018-10-10T12:44:23Z GoldenRin joined #scheme
2018-10-10T12:45:18Z GoldRin quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2018-10-10T12:45:19Z GoldenRin quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2018-10-10T12:45:38Z GoldRin joined #scheme
2018-10-10T12:47:35Z GoldRin left #scheme
2018-10-10T12:48:00Z GoldRin joined #scheme
2018-10-10T12:49:21Z pjb quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2018-10-10T12:49:36Z epony joined #scheme
2018-10-10T12:51:26Z GoldRin quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2018-10-10T12:54:38Z GoldRin joined #scheme
2018-10-10T12:54:48Z GoldRin quit (Client Quit)
2018-10-10T12:54:55Z GoldenRin joined #scheme
2018-10-10T12:55:41Z GoldenRin quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2018-10-10T13:03:58Z InverseRhombus joined #scheme
2018-10-10T13:06:37Z Guest88437 quit (Quit:  HydraIRC -> http://www.hydrairc.com <- Chicks dig it)
2018-10-10T13:08:21Z X-Scale joined #scheme
2018-10-10T13:27:14Z johndoe231 quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2018-10-10T13:31:48Z ggole joined #scheme
2018-10-10T13:36:09Z catern quit (Excess Flood)
2018-10-10T13:37:06Z catern joined #scheme
2018-10-10T13:40:10Z thevishy joined #scheme
2018-10-10T13:41:07Z jcowan_ quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)
2018-10-10T13:41:54Z jcowan_ joined #scheme
2018-10-10T13:52:00Z badkins joined #scheme
2018-10-10T14:08:39Z jcowan_ quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)
2018-10-10T14:08:55Z jcowan_ joined #scheme
2018-10-10T14:20:00Z smazga joined #scheme
2018-10-10T14:28:54Z remix2000 quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2018-10-10T14:34:57Z manumanumanu quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2018-10-10T14:36:55Z jcowan_ quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)
2018-10-10T14:43:45Z klovett quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2018-10-10T14:44:04Z klovett joined #scheme
2018-10-10T14:46:10Z pjb joined #scheme
2018-10-10T14:54:12Z sethalves quit (Quit: Leaving.)
2018-10-10T14:55:44Z remix2000 joined #scheme
2018-10-10T14:59:43Z eMBee joined #scheme
2018-10-10T15:15:50Z InverseRhombus quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2018-10-10T15:19:30Z pjb quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2018-10-10T15:20:38Z greatscottttt quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.9)
2018-10-10T15:33:33Z thevishy quit (Quit: thevishy)
2018-10-10T15:35:12Z robotoad joined #scheme
2018-10-10T15:35:29Z rain2: hello
2018-10-10T15:36:50Z jcowan_ joined #scheme
2018-10-10T15:39:03Z Ober: rain2 it's not yet "some other day"
2018-10-10T15:55:08Z sethalves joined #scheme
2018-10-10T15:56:35Z ft quit (Quit: Reconnecting)
2018-10-10T15:56:44Z ft joined #scheme
2018-10-10T16:05:21Z sethalves quit (Quit: Leaving.)
2018-10-10T16:10:18Z Zenton quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2018-10-10T16:14:52Z ggole quit (Quit: ggole)
2018-10-10T16:22:26Z erkin joined #scheme
2018-10-10T16:37:38Z jcowan joined #scheme
2018-10-10T16:42:17Z pjb joined #scheme
2018-10-10T16:42:20Z thevishy joined #scheme
2018-10-10T16:42:50Z jcowan_ quit (Quit: Leaving)
2018-10-10T16:48:58Z Guest86186 quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.2)
2018-10-10T16:49:11Z jcowan_ joined #scheme
2018-10-10T16:49:20Z jcowan_ quit (Client Quit)
2018-10-10T16:50:09Z f8l joined #scheme
2018-10-10T17:02:00Z amz3 quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2018-10-10T17:02:27Z amz3 joined #scheme
2018-10-10T17:02:56Z amz3 quit (Changing host)
2018-10-10T17:02:56Z amz3 joined #scheme
2018-10-10T17:07:24Z hugh_marera joined #scheme
2018-10-10T17:26:04Z pie_ quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
2018-10-10T17:31:55Z florilege joined #scheme
2018-10-10T17:51:17Z amz3 quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
2018-10-10T17:52:51Z amz3 joined #scheme
2018-10-10T18:02:57Z thevishy quit (Quit: thevishy)
2018-10-10T18:07:14Z badkins quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2018-10-10T18:33:43Z thevishy joined #scheme
2018-10-10T18:43:25Z alezost joined #scheme
2018-10-10T18:45:03Z Zenton joined #scheme
2018-10-10T18:47:06Z turbofail joined #scheme
2018-10-10T18:47:51Z TheGreekOwl joined #scheme
2018-10-10T18:47:56Z drewc quit (Quit: ZNC 1.6.3+deb1 - http://znc.in)
2018-10-10T18:50:37Z drewc joined #scheme
2018-10-10T18:54:54Z badkins joined #scheme
2018-10-10T18:56:06Z amz3 quit (Changing host)
2018-10-10T18:56:06Z amz3 joined #scheme
2018-10-10T18:56:09Z amz3: rudybot: la la la
2018-10-10T18:56:09Z rudybot: amz3: does anyone have weird ediff breakage lately? "wrong argument listp [overlay blab la]"
2018-10-10T18:58:48Z florilege quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2018-10-10T19:00:22Z amz3 quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2018-10-10T19:02:29Z amz3 joined #scheme
2018-10-10T19:06:42Z Ober: in scheme is there a say to fetch the description text for a function programatically?
2018-10-10T19:07:36Z Ober: e.g. in cl (documentation 'myfun 'function)
2018-10-10T19:07:48Z ecraven: Ober: not portably
2018-10-10T19:07:56Z ecraven: some implementations offer something like that, but most do not
2018-10-10T19:08:21Z ecraven: actually I don't know of a single implementation that offers complete docstrings for functions *and* values
2018-10-10T19:10:30Z thevishy quit (Quit: thevishy)
2018-10-10T19:10:34Z Ober: thanks
2018-10-10T19:11:18Z ecraven: if you look into the sources of geiser and r7rs-swank, you can see how they access the built-in documentation (if any)
2018-10-10T19:12:17Z gwatt: I made a thing to add documentation for r6rs schemes.
2018-10-10T19:12:21Z badkins quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2018-10-10T19:22:29Z muelleme joined #scheme
2018-10-10T19:29:10Z ngz joined #scheme
2018-10-10T19:29:20Z badkins joined #scheme
2018-10-10T19:32:59Z PyroLagus_ left #scheme
2018-10-10T19:56:34Z florilege joined #scheme
2018-10-10T20:06:36Z DGASAU quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2018-10-10T20:08:23Z DGASAU joined #scheme
2018-10-10T20:12:57Z divergence joined #scheme
2018-10-10T20:14:26Z erkin quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2018-10-10T20:18:05Z Nizumzen joined #scheme
2018-10-10T20:20:58Z pie_ joined #scheme
2018-10-10T20:37:55Z erkin joined #scheme
2018-10-10T20:51:47Z charh joined #scheme
2018-10-10T20:56:52Z alezost quit (Quit: I live in GuixSD <http://www.gnu.org/s/guix> and Emacs <http://www.gnu.org/s/emacs>)
2018-10-10T20:57:48Z mjarlund_ joined #scheme
2018-10-10T21:01:28Z mjarlund_: Can I somehow do a check to confirm what procedure is passed? Example #<procedure:foo> #<procedure:bar>, how do I check which is passed?
2018-10-10T21:01:43Z wasamasa: passed?
2018-10-10T21:01:50Z wasamasa: all I see is printed representations
2018-10-10T21:02:03Z wasamasa: how they're printed is up to your scheme implementation
2018-10-10T21:02:13Z qu1j0t3: mjarlund_: only by calling it. maybe you need to change the representation of your parameters.
2018-10-10T21:02:15Z mjarlund_: Oh yea, what I mean is, if I pass a procedure to a function, can I do a cond to check what procedure it is?
2018-10-10T21:03:20Z wasamasa: the only useful thing you can do is checking whether it's identical to another procedure
2018-10-10T21:04:20Z pjb: You can only compare procedures for identity.
2018-10-10T21:05:35Z pjb: (define (which? f) (cond ((eqv? f foo) 'foo) ((eqv? f bar) 'bar))) (define foo (lambda () 1)) (define bar (lambda () 2)) (which? foo) #| -> foo |# (which? bar) #| -> bar |#
2018-10-10T21:05:36Z wasamasa: everything else is up to your implementation
2018-10-10T21:13:21Z mjarlund_: I think what I'm after really is a way to get the string representation of the procedure so I can compare with that.
2018-10-10T21:13:30Z civodul quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 26.1))
2018-10-10T21:15:22Z pjb: mjarlund_: there's nothing in the standard.
2018-10-10T21:15:44Z mjarlund_: Yea I'm coming to realize that, sadly. :-)
2018-10-10T21:15:48Z pjb: mjarlund_: your choices are to use an implemntation that keeps the source of the procedure around, and let you get it, or
2018-10-10T21:16:15Z pjb: mjarlund_: write a macro to save the source of the procedure when defining them, and use this macro everywhere to define your procedures.
2018-10-10T21:17:09Z pjb: I'd prefer the later, since you could potentially write it so it's implementation independent, thus it would work everywhere.
2018-10-10T21:17:42Z pjb: But the inconvenient is that it doesn't take into account library or implementation procedures that are not defined with your macro.
2018-10-10T21:18:08Z pjb: There's a third option (actually same as the first): patch your implementation to add this feature ;-)
2018-10-10T21:18:45Z pjb: If you do that, you may also be on the comitee of the next r*rs, where you could push to add the feature to the standard ;-)
2018-10-10T21:19:55Z mjarlund_: haha - yea - I think being able to retrieve the string representation of a procedure would be useful. I'll write it behind my ear for another century when I have time haha
2018-10-10T21:21:09Z LeoNerd: string representation doesn't really capture (pardon the phrasing) the scoped lexicals though
2018-10-10T21:21:30Z LeoNerd: It works for pure functions, but not so well for closures with bound captures
2018-10-10T21:22:05Z mjarlund_: Hm yea, you might be on to something
2018-10-10T21:29:38Z hugh_marera quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2018-10-10T21:30:32Z pjb: and I would prefer the sexp, or the file position, instead of the text.
2018-10-10T21:47:19Z jcowan: pjb: note that in R6RS you can't even compare procedures for identity.  This is known as "ML envy".
2018-10-10T21:50:48Z jcowan: R6RS compilers are allowed to transform (eq? car car) into (eq? (lambda (x) (%primitive-car x)) (lambda (x) (%primitive-car x)))
2018-10-10T21:51:00Z acarrico quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2018-10-10T22:08:26Z pjb: :-(
2018-10-10T22:08:46Z mejja joined #scheme
2018-10-10T22:09:07Z Guest13389 quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
2018-10-10T22:09:52Z emacsomancer quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.2)
2018-10-10T22:10:36Z mejja: jcowan: 162 is the best srfi ever.. 404 Not Found ;-)
2018-10-10T22:11:02Z emacsomancer joined #scheme
2018-10-10T22:16:57Z ngz quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2018-10-10T22:20:09Z emacsomancer quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
2018-10-10T22:21:44Z Guest13389 joined #scheme
2018-10-10T22:23:54Z emacsomancer joined #scheme
2018-10-10T22:30:04Z InverseRhombus joined #scheme
2018-10-10T22:46:20Z pjb quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2018-10-10T22:54:51Z mjarlund_: How would I check if something is a list of pairs?
2018-10-10T22:56:07Z mjarlund_: hm never mind, brainfart
2018-10-10T22:59:25Z smazga quit (Quit: leaving)
2018-10-10T22:59:38Z wigust quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2018-10-10T22:59:52Z klovett_ joined #scheme
2018-10-10T23:03:34Z klovett quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2018-10-10T23:05:00Z r1b joined #scheme
2018-10-10T23:05:01Z emacsomancer quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2018-10-10T23:10:09Z emacsomancer joined #scheme
2018-10-10T23:16:52Z wigust joined #scheme
2018-10-10T23:18:10Z pjb joined #scheme
2018-10-10T23:37:14Z daviid joined #scheme
2018-10-10T23:44:13Z siraben quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2018-10-10T23:51:33Z pjb quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2018-10-10T23:54:12Z Guest88437 joined #scheme
2018-10-10T23:55:24Z X-Scale quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2018-10-10T23:55:24Z keep_learning quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2018-10-11T00:02:46Z robotoad quit (Quit: robotoad)
2018-10-11T00:04:52Z lpsmith quit (Quit: ZNC 1.6.5 - http://znc.in)
2018-10-11T00:05:05Z lpsmith joined #scheme
2018-10-11T00:08:19Z acarrico joined #scheme
2018-10-11T00:09:31Z mejja_ joined #scheme
2018-10-11T00:10:02Z mejja quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2018-10-11T00:11:21Z remix2000 quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2018-10-11T00:11:38Z remix2000 joined #scheme
2018-10-11T00:11:54Z erkin quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2018-10-11T00:11:54Z amz3 quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2018-10-11T00:11:54Z ravndal quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2018-10-11T00:12:18Z erkin joined #scheme
2018-10-11T00:12:19Z amz3 joined #scheme
2018-10-11T00:12:27Z Guest13389 quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2018-10-11T00:13:15Z mejja_ quit (Client Quit)
2018-10-11T00:14:24Z Guest13389 joined #scheme
2018-10-11T00:14:45Z flerovite joined #scheme
2018-10-11T00:15:10Z ravndal joined #scheme
2018-10-11T00:15:40Z mjarlund_: What would you call a function that traverses an associate list and replaces atoms where a predicate is met? Hit me up with a fancy function name
2018-10-11T00:16:18Z r1b quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2018-10-11T00:24:56Z epony quit (Quit: QUIT)
2018-10-11T00:26:18Z GoldRin joined #scheme
2018-10-11T00:26:31Z robotoad joined #scheme
2018-10-11T00:33:24Z epony joined #scheme
2018-10-11T00:35:40Z florilege quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2018-10-11T00:37:35Z florilege joined #scheme
2018-10-11T00:49:09Z klovett joined #scheme
2018-10-11T00:52:03Z klovett_ quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
2018-10-11T01:00:19Z lockywolf joined #scheme
2018-10-11T01:01:00Z lockywolf quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2018-10-11T01:01:26Z lockywolf joined #scheme
2018-10-11T01:04:42Z muelleme_ joined #scheme
2018-10-11T01:07:01Z ivanshmakov quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2018-10-11T01:07:20Z muelleme quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
2018-10-11T01:07:55Z balkamos quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2018-10-11T01:08:55Z balkamos joined #scheme
2018-10-11T01:09:20Z lockywolf quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
2018-10-11T01:10:03Z badkins_ joined #scheme
2018-10-11T01:12:36Z badkins quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2018-10-11T01:25:51Z Gnuxie[m] quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
2018-10-11T01:25:52Z remix2000[m] quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
2018-10-11T01:26:05Z Gnuxie[m] joined #scheme
2018-10-11T01:29:30Z Guest88437 is now known as X-Scale
2018-10-11T01:31:08Z remix2000[m] joined #scheme
2018-10-11T01:37:12Z proksi[m] quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2018-10-11T01:37:34Z Gnuxie[m] quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2018-10-11T01:43:29Z proksi[m] joined #scheme
2018-10-11T01:43:31Z Gnuxie[m] joined #scheme
2018-10-11T01:45:42Z pie__ joined #scheme
2018-10-11T01:46:22Z pie__ quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2018-10-11T01:46:45Z pie__ joined #scheme
2018-10-11T01:48:08Z pjb joined #scheme
2018-10-11T01:48:52Z GoldRin quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2018-10-11T01:49:27Z pie_ quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2018-10-11T01:56:12Z mbakke quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
2018-10-11T01:56:22Z mbakke joined #scheme
2018-10-11T02:02:33Z keep_learning joined #scheme
2018-10-11T02:03:28Z GoldRin joined #scheme
2018-10-11T02:07:51Z jcowan: mjarlund_: People don't normally mutate alists, they just push new pairs on the front.  But if you must, alist-filter-map! would be suitable, taking an alist, a predicate, and a mapping procedure to replace the alist value.
2018-10-11T02:08:58Z robotoad quit (Quit: robotoad)
2018-10-11T02:11:43Z acarrico quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2018-10-11T02:12:13Z GoldRin quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2018-10-11T02:12:38Z GoldRin joined #scheme
2018-10-11T02:16:49Z mjarlund_ quit (Quit: Leaving)
2018-10-11T02:21:03Z pjb quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2018-10-11T02:24:33Z linack joined #scheme
2018-10-11T02:33:34Z lockywolf joined #scheme
2018-10-11T02:38:13Z GoldRin quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
2018-10-11T02:38:17Z epony quit (Quit: QUIT)
2018-10-11T02:48:09Z pjb joined #scheme
2018-10-11T02:56:22Z robotoad joined #scheme
2018-10-11T02:59:22Z DGASAU quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2018-10-11T03:02:08Z daviid quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2018-10-11T03:08:54Z florilege quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2018-10-11T03:15:44Z epony joined #scheme
2018-10-11T03:17:31Z lambda-11235 joined #scheme
2018-10-11T03:21:00Z pjb quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2018-10-11T03:36:43Z DGASAU joined #scheme
2018-10-11T03:57:25Z ccl-logbot joined #scheme
2018-10-11T03:57:25Z 
2018-10-11T03:57:25Z names: ccl-logbot lockywolf_ DGASAU lambda-11235 epony robotoad linack keep_learning mbakke pie__ Gnuxie[m] proksi[m] remix2000[m] badkins_ balkamos muelleme_ klovett ravndal flerovite Guest13389 amz3 erkin remix2000 lpsmith X-Scale wigust emacsomancer InverseRhombus charh Nizumzen divergence drewc TheGreekOwl turbofail Zenton f8l jcowan ft eMBee catern pilcrow carc gko ArneBab GGMethos iskander rotty defanor greaser|q ecraven exit70 kwmiebach weltung
2018-10-11T03:57:25Z names: stux16777216Away niklasl tolja clog lavaflow jp nckx Kryo erratic dpk elly aeth ec physpi jim piccolo emar z0d dan64 cibs snits_ `micro hugo terpri emma qu1j0t3 sudden rudybot willghatch[m] spectrumgomas[m] plll[m] rann abbe kjeldahl mats kilimanjaro razzy yumh ohama vxe_ payphone pyro- mrm edgar-rft webshinra kjak joast amoe alphor foof` dieggsy Labu drot blt M_D_K stux|work wasamasa dmiles cortisol hive-mind tessier evhan gnomon reverse_light ng0 cmatei
2018-10-11T03:57:25Z names: wingo fadein fgudin nisstyre Menche ArthurAGleckler[ ManDay[m] asumu DeeEff1 groovy2shoes ByronJohnson cemerick deuill cky f32ff jyc fizzie ghostyy weinholt Riastradh m1dnight_ cmaloney tomasmu profan Ober davexunit dsp Combinatorialist Kkiro_ pflanze Blkt_ averell mario-goulart cross gwatt pchrist DerGuteMoritz Guest40074 copec ssake snow_bckspc sz0_ dkrm_ scroll2_ ventonegro rain2 SirDayBat energizer fowlduck szgyg bheesham hook54321 terrorjack samth
2018-10-11T03:57:25Z names: rjungemann greghendershott LeoNerd duncanm stephe kbtr outtabwz eagleflo gabot ski davl yosafbridge` Kooda
2018-10-11T04:04:19Z thevishy joined #scheme
2018-10-11T04:08:00Z epony quit (Quit: QUIT)
2018-10-11T04:08:35Z epony joined #scheme
2018-10-11T04:09:07Z sethalves joined #scheme
2018-10-11T04:12:48Z pie__ quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2018-10-11T04:14:50Z erkin quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2018-10-11T04:46:55Z lockywolf_ quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
2018-10-11T05:04:24Z TheGreekOwl quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2018-10-11T05:07:49Z lockywolf joined #scheme
2018-10-11T05:09:00Z lockywolf quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2018-10-11T05:09:40Z lockywolf joined #scheme
2018-10-11T05:14:35Z lockywolf quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2018-10-11T05:18:14Z pjb joined #scheme
2018-10-11T05:21:40Z linack quit (Quit: Leaving)
2018-10-11T05:40:55Z klovett quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2018-10-11T05:41:33Z klovett joined #scheme
2018-10-11T05:51:05Z ecraven: has anyone done something like http4k (kotlin) in any Scheme?
2018-10-11T05:51:18Z pjb quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2018-10-11T05:51:22Z ecraven: http4k looks like a nice approach to "web stuff" ;)
2018-10-11T05:51:29Z ecraven: and it uses lenses!
2018-10-11T06:29:38Z robotoad quit (Quit: robotoad)
2018-10-11T06:33:54Z ozzloy joined #scheme
2018-10-11T06:38:42Z thevishy quit (Quit: thevishy)
2018-10-11T06:39:28Z exit70 left #scheme
2018-10-11T06:43:06Z lambda-11235 quit (Quit: Bye)
2018-10-11T07:09:53Z civodul joined #scheme
2018-10-11T07:45:28Z lavaflow quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2018-10-11T07:57:47Z X-Scale quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2018-10-11T07:57:54Z greatscottttt joined #scheme
2018-10-11T07:59:58Z civodul quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 26.1))
2018-10-11T08:01:01Z ggole joined #scheme
2018-10-11T08:06:35Z florilege joined #scheme
2018-10-11T08:32:15Z pie__ joined #scheme
2018-10-11T08:47:03Z civodul joined #scheme
2018-10-11T08:51:49Z daviid joined #scheme
2018-10-11T08:56:13Z gravicappa joined #scheme
2018-10-11T09:38:42Z GoldRin joined #scheme
2018-10-11T09:45:46Z florilege quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
2018-10-11T09:56:55Z GoldRin quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2018-10-11T09:57:18Z GoldRin joined #scheme
2018-10-11T10:10:07Z florilege joined #scheme
2018-10-11T10:23:35Z Seb[m]11 joined #scheme
2018-10-11T10:32:36Z klovett quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2018-10-11T10:32:51Z klovett joined #scheme
2018-10-11T10:37:09Z klovett quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2018-10-11T10:38:03Z klovett joined #scheme
2018-10-11T11:02:44Z siraben joined #scheme
2018-10-11T11:10:15Z daviid quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2018-10-11T11:18:39Z GoldRin quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
2018-10-11T11:24:07Z GoldRin joined #scheme
2018-10-11T11:33:26Z gravicappa quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2018-10-11T11:49:27Z GoldenRin joined #scheme
2018-10-11T11:51:19Z GoldRin quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
2018-10-11T11:54:13Z GoldenRin quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2018-10-11T11:55:19Z GoldRin joined #scheme
2018-10-11T12:03:44Z acarrico joined #scheme
2018-10-11T12:23:24Z GoldRin quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2018-10-11T12:26:45Z GoldRin joined #scheme
2018-10-11T12:33:55Z GoldRin quit (Quit: Leaving)
2018-10-11T12:34:13Z GoldRin joined #scheme
2018-10-11T12:34:26Z GoldRin quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2018-10-11T13:15:54Z TCZ joined #scheme
2018-10-11T13:27:32Z florilege: it's very strange, I wrote some tests and any condition can be handled with call/cc and bind-condition-handler except the broken pipe
2018-10-11T13:28:13Z florilege: the handle-broken-pipe functions in imail/imail-util.scm and runtime/syncproc.scm don't work
2018-10-11T13:34:53Z florilege: recompiling uxfs.c and uxio.c in the microcode and replacing calls to write(...) by send(...,MSG_NOSIGNAL) to prevent SIGPIPE was a bad idea, mit-scheme wouldn't launch (complaining about garbage collector)
2018-10-11T13:37:46Z florilege: there's no real way to detect if a client has disconnected (could read the socket for an "EOF object" but, if the client is still connected, read-char would block)
2018-10-11T13:40:04Z florilege: it seems I can write 4096 bytes before write-line returns a broken-pipe condition, the only safe bet would be to write the response to a file and redirect a reverse proxy, 4096 bytes ought to be enough
2018-10-11T13:40:18Z florilege: I'll try the mailing list if I manage to register
2018-10-11T13:44:36Z badkins_ is now known as badkins
2018-10-11T13:46:18Z TCZ quit (Quit: Leaving)
2018-10-11T14:42:04Z klovett_ joined #scheme
2018-10-11T14:46:26Z klovett quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
2018-10-11T14:54:16Z greatscottttt quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.9)
2018-10-11T14:59:39Z edgar-rft quit (Quit: Leaving)
2018-10-11T15:17:55Z smazga joined #scheme
2018-10-11T15:22:01Z robotoad joined #scheme
2018-10-11T15:30:53Z iskander quit (Quit: Quit)
2018-10-11T15:32:40Z TheGreekOwl joined #scheme
2018-10-11T15:34:20Z iskander joined #scheme
2018-10-11T15:38:54Z alezost joined #scheme
2018-10-11T15:40:18Z lritter joined #scheme
2018-10-11T15:45:02Z blackwolf joined #scheme
2018-10-11T15:48:01Z Zenton quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2018-10-11T15:48:17Z Zenton joined #scheme
2018-10-11T15:54:17Z daviid joined #scheme
2018-10-11T15:54:43Z Zenton quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
2018-10-11T16:14:21Z lavaflow joined #scheme
2018-10-11T16:35:34Z civodul quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 26.1))
2018-10-11T16:42:25Z pjb joined #scheme
2018-10-11T16:48:09Z Zenton joined #scheme
2018-10-11T16:48:15Z ggole quit (Quit: ggole)
2018-10-11T17:03:44Z X-Scale joined #scheme
2018-10-11T17:07:44Z epony quit (Quit: QUIT)
2018-10-11T17:19:47Z alezost quit (Quit: I live in GuixSD <http://www.gnu.org/s/guix> and Emacs <http://www.gnu.org/s/emacs>)
2018-10-11T17:20:14Z erkin joined #scheme
2018-10-11T17:20:18Z erkin quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2018-10-11T17:26:49Z erkin joined #scheme
2018-10-11T17:37:39Z muelleme_ quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2018-10-11T17:46:45Z edgar-rft joined #scheme
2018-10-11T18:11:57Z muelleme_ joined #scheme
2018-10-11T18:26:20Z flerovite quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2018-10-11T18:26:26Z segfault_ joined #scheme
2018-10-11T18:45:14Z emar quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.2)
2018-10-11T18:45:55Z emar joined #scheme
2018-10-11T18:52:32Z Fare joined #scheme
2018-10-11T18:57:57Z Fare quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2018-10-11T19:05:50Z erkin quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2018-10-11T19:12:02Z Ober looks for mac users to test gambit brew formula
2018-10-11T19:15:46Z hugo_dc joined #scheme
2018-10-11T19:20:56Z hugo_dc quit (Quit: Leaving)
2018-10-11T19:22:30Z muelleme_ quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2018-10-11T19:24:48Z hugh_marera joined #scheme
2018-10-11T19:25:38Z amz3 quit (Changing host)
2018-10-11T19:25:38Z amz3 joined #scheme
2018-10-11T19:26:11Z Fare joined #scheme
2018-10-11T19:28:24Z robotoad quit (Quit: robotoad)
2018-10-11T19:31:13Z Ober: `brew install https://raw.githubusercontent.com/ober/gerbil/master/brew/gambit-scheme.rb`
2018-10-11T19:38:14Z ngz joined #scheme
2018-10-11T20:07:55Z dieggsy: scheme has the #e prefix to indicate that a number is exact. so #e0.01 -> 1/100. is there any way to turn 1/100 back into the #e float notation? so 1/10 -> #e0.01. it's a weird question cause #e0.01 is the same as #e1/100 which is the same as 1/100 so. i assume not
2018-10-11T20:16:16Z qu1j0t3: dieggsy: yes there is an exact -> inexact function
2018-10-11T20:16:19Z qu1j0t3: afaik
2018-10-11T20:16:44Z dieggsy: qu1j0t3: right, but that's limited by flonums
2018-10-11T20:17:10Z dieggsy: whereas #e allows for arbitrary precision flonums as input (just cause it turns them into an exact)
2018-10-11T20:18:14Z muelleme_ joined #scheme
2018-10-11T20:19:14Z hugh_marera quit (Quit: hugh_marera)
2018-10-11T20:21:00Z qu1j0t3: hm, yeah
2018-10-11T20:21:11Z qu1j0t3: it goes to inexact AND changes the value
2018-10-11T20:22:49Z muelleme_ quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
2018-10-11T20:23:47Z Fare quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
2018-10-11T20:39:31Z Riastradh: florilege: MIT Scheme normally disables SIGPIPE.  What's the symptom?
2018-10-11T20:46:19Z terpri quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2018-10-11T20:52:27Z jcob joined #scheme
2018-10-11T21:05:07Z hugh_marera joined #scheme
2018-10-11T21:05:13Z badkins quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2018-10-11T21:06:40Z badkins joined #scheme
2018-10-11T21:11:43Z badkins quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2018-10-11T21:12:31Z badkins joined #scheme
2018-10-11T21:19:31Z muelleme_ joined #scheme
2018-10-11T21:24:50Z muelleme_ quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2018-10-11T21:31:23Z jcob quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
2018-10-11T21:45:44Z ngz quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2018-10-11T21:50:13Z Fare joined #scheme
2018-10-11T21:50:34Z florilege: Riastradh: if I try to write to a socket when the client has disconnected, I get this error
2018-10-11T21:50:37Z florilege: ;The port #[i/o-port 19 for channels: #[channel 20] #[channel 20]] signalled an error:
2018-10-11T21:50:40Z florilege: The primitive channel-write, while executing the write system call, received the error: Broken pipe.
2018-10-11T21:52:47Z blackwolf quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2018-10-11T21:53:00Z florilege: which means a client could crash the server, and I can't find a way to handle this
2018-10-11T21:54:28Z Riastradh: OK, that's not SIGPIPE, then, but a crappy error reporting mechanism on the Scheme side.
2018-10-11T21:54:32Z robotoad joined #scheme
2018-10-11T21:54:44Z Riastradh: (which wouldn't surprise me; I don't remember how that stuff is supposed to work, if it's supposed to work)
2018-10-11T21:55:16Z Fare quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2018-10-11T21:56:29Z jcowan: If SIGPIPE is silenced, you get an error EPIPE instead
2018-10-11T21:56:53Z florilege: if I raise any other condition (like a division by 0) I can recover from it with the usual constructs, but this one there's nothing I can do
2018-10-11T21:57:27Z jcowan: The point of SIGPIPE is to kill a pipeline when a later stage decides it has read enough: it will terminate (or at least close its input) and the upstream stage will try to write the next thing, die on SIGPIPE, and so on until they are all gone.
2018-10-11T21:57:44Z jcowan: its use on sockets is really a kind of misuse
2018-10-11T21:59:30Z Riastradh: jcowan: Yes, I know, and that's why MIT Scheme sensibly disables SIGPIPE and has for a long time.
2018-10-11T21:59:50Z Riastradh: (What it does with EPIPE may not be sensible; I don't remember the details.)
2018-10-11T22:01:25Z jcowan: It's not that ridiculous, though: what should the client do if the server has gone away?  If it can try another server, it can trap SIGPIPE and recover.
2018-10-11T22:01:53Z florilege: in the microcode, the function `write( sockfd, buf, sizeof(buf) )' is called, I've tried to change that to send( ... MSG_NOSIGNAL) but scheme won't start then
2018-10-11T22:02:59Z Riastradh: jcowan: yeah, trapping SIGPIPE and longjmping your way out of the signal handler is a lot more trouble than just checking for EPIPE.  But anyway, the problem is that MIT Scheme does something stupid with EPIPE later on down the pipe, so to speak.
2018-10-11T22:03:00Z florilege: I'd be happy if I just find a way to silently ignore the condition, pretend the write happened normally
2018-10-11T22:03:37Z jcowan: most code I've seen that calls write() simply ignores errors
2018-10-11T22:04:06Z Riastradh: jcowan: yes, but MIT Scheme's calls to write do not fall into that `most code'.
2018-10-11T22:04:12Z florilege: yes, but it seems it can't be ignored in MIT Scheme, it's really strange
2018-10-11T22:04:26Z jcowan: ISTR that MIT has ignore-errors or some such
2018-10-11T22:04:41Z florilege: ignore-errors for instance won't work
2018-10-11T22:05:18Z Riastradh: wfm: (receive (r w) (make-pipe) (channel-close r) (ignore-errors (lambda () (channel-write w "foo" 0 3))) 'ok)
2018-10-11T22:05:19Z florilege: nor any combination of call/cc, bind-condition-handler and dynamic-wind
2018-10-11T22:05:25Z Riastradh: Steps to reproduce?
2018-10-11T22:05:40Z florilege: I took some code from swank for instance
2018-10-11T22:05:51Z Riastradh: Can you isolate a minimal test case?
2018-10-11T22:05:54Z florilege: wait, I'll post a simple case
2018-10-11T22:05:56Z hugh_marera quit (Quit: hugh_marera)
2018-10-11T22:07:22Z TheGreekOwl quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2018-10-11T22:08:47Z JohnTalent joined #scheme
2018-10-11T22:17:17Z florilege: https://pastebin.com/U7i9dbaz
2018-10-11T22:18:24Z Riastradh: florilege: OK, and where are you putting ignore-errors?
2018-10-11T22:18:59Z florilege: I think I've tried everywhere
2018-10-11T22:20:03Z Riastradh: STR with an ignore-errors you think should suppress it?
2018-10-11T22:22:09Z florilege: STR?
2018-10-11T22:22:14Z Riastradh: steps to reproduce
2018-10-11T22:22:47Z TheGreekOwl joined #scheme
2018-10-11T22:23:47Z florilege: let's say (ignore-errors (serve-request port))
2018-10-11T22:24:15Z florilege: https://pastebin.com/DWnVwfxh
2018-10-11T22:24:30Z florilege: wait, it should be a thunk no?
2018-10-11T22:24:57Z gwatt: dieggsy: #i1/100 => 0.01
2018-10-11T22:25:54Z Riastradh: florilege: Hm.  The stack trace is a little confusing, but the error is being reported by close-port, not by write-string.
2018-10-11T22:26:03Z Riastradh: In particular, close-port flushes the output buffer.
2018-10-11T22:26:28Z florilege: https://pastebin.com/xHNCpXZt
2018-10-11T22:26:38Z florilege: sorry Riastradh scratch the previous paste
2018-10-11T22:26:47Z florilege: it's late in Europe
2018-10-11T22:27:03Z Riastradh: Do something right after (close-port port), e.g. return 42 in the thunk; then you'll see that show up in the stack trace.
2018-10-11T22:28:01Z Riastradh: (So it's not doing anything stupid with EPIPE, actually.)
2018-10-11T22:29:32Z Riastradh: Need to _discard_ the buffered output when the channel is closed.  Whether the port system knows how to do that, I don't know...
2018-10-11T22:29:34Z yumh quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2018-10-11T22:30:25Z yumh joined #scheme
2018-10-11T22:30:26Z florilege: I wasn't expecting anyobody to reply, this afternoon I had examples where I could jump if any other condition was raised but not this one
2018-10-11T22:30:59Z florilege: I wasn't using ignore-errors but bind-condition-handler
2018-10-11T22:31:46Z Riastradh: Sure, you'll get the same result.  Point is in this case it's not enough to do it around the write; you also have to do it around the close-port, because close-port apparently tries to submit any buffered output, even if it can't because the underlying channel (file descriptor) is hosed.
2018-10-11T22:31:53Z hugh_marera joined #scheme
2018-10-11T22:32:55Z florilege: I see, ok
2018-10-11T22:33:50Z florilege: thanks a lot, I'll try that
2018-10-11T22:34:29Z Riastradh: I suspect this is just a bug in port closing, because if you do ignore-errors it will probably leave the file descriptor open...
2018-10-11T22:35:01Z Riastradh: ...although the I/O subsystem has also changed substantially in the past year, so, I dunno.
2018-10-11T22:36:42Z florilege: it's hard to find any other users who ran into the same problems
2018-10-11T22:37:29Z florilege: the only result I've got from googling was a message in the mailing list from 2010 which wasn't really answered
2018-10-11T22:39:37Z florilege: anyway you gave me some hope, I'll try again tomorrow
2018-10-11T22:40:15Z florilege: I kind of gave up this afternoon and just wrote the response to a file and redirect the reverse proxy
2018-10-11T22:41:11Z florilege: I noticed that writing a string under 4096 bytes would not raise the error, but that's probably the size of the buffer that close-port tries to flush?
2018-10-11T22:41:51Z Riastradh: Probably.
2018-10-11T22:42:20Z Riastradh: Yep, 4096 bytes in the buffer.
2018-10-11T22:44:09Z jcob joined #scheme
2018-10-11T22:49:12Z hugh_marera quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2018-10-11T22:54:09Z florilege: thank you Riastradh ! problem solved
2018-10-11T22:59:59Z mihkkal joined #scheme
2018-10-11T23:01:30Z smazga quit (Quit: leaving)
2018-10-11T23:01:45Z mihkkal: So I was looking at this procedure "procedure-keywords" (https://docs.racket-lang.org/reference/procedures.html#%28def._%28%28lib._racket%2Fprivate%2Fbase..rkt%29._procedure-keywords%29%29) and I was wondering if it is possible to get the next keyword argument? I'm not sure how to get that from the produced result
2018-10-11T23:01:47Z rudybot: http://teensy.info/uyLFPuusSH
2018-10-11T23:02:22Z florilege quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2018-10-11T23:18:17Z jcob quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2018-10-11T23:18:20Z vxe_ quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2018-10-11T23:22:45Z TheGreekOwl quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
2018-10-11T23:22:59Z epony joined #scheme
2018-10-11T23:36:38Z robotoad quit (Quit: robotoad)
2018-10-11T23:37:15Z TheGreekOwl joined #scheme
2018-10-11T23:38:33Z Riastradh: mihkkal: What do you mean by `get the next keyword argument'?
2018-10-11T23:39:03Z wigust- joined #scheme
2018-10-11T23:42:12Z mihkkal: So for example, if I have a curried procedure (define f (lambda (#:x) (lambda (#:y)))) and I do (define foo (f 3)) (define bar (f)) how do I determine that foo is expecting #:y and bar is expecting #:x as the next keyword argument?
2018-10-11T23:42:22Z wigust quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2018-10-11T23:42:36Z mihkkal: Does that make sense?
2018-10-11T23:44:25Z siraben quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
2018-10-11T23:44:30Z Riastradh: Umm...  (procedure-keywords foo)?
2018-10-11T23:44:47Z Riastradh: (But (f 3) doesn't work there -- you're passing a positional argument to a procedure that takes only keyword arguments.)
2018-10-11T23:46:37Z robotoad joined #scheme
2018-10-11T23:46:45Z Riastradh: If you do (procedure-keywords f), you'll learn that f requires #:x.  If you do (procedure-keywords (f #:x 42)), you'll learn that (f #:x 42) requires #:y.
2018-10-11T23:47:13Z Riastradh: Anything about currying is up to you; it's not a formal concept that procedure-keywords knows anything about.
2018-10-11T23:47:22Z mihkkal: Yea, I missed that in my writeup, but you got the gist. My problem is that (procedure-keywords foo) produces two results
2018-10-11T23:47:32Z mihkkal: and I'm not sure how I would get the result I need :p
2018-10-11T23:47:46Z Riastradh: What result do you need?
2018-10-11T23:48:45Z mihkkal: I really only need to know what the next keyword is, so I can check it in a cond. In my application I am using optional arguments, so the result is in the second list.
2018-10-11T23:49:05Z mihkkal: Honestly I'm just confused about the concept of it being able to produce multiple results.
2018-10-11T23:49:09Z Riastradh: There's no such concept that procedure-keywords can interrogate.
2018-10-11T23:49:48Z Riastradh: Consider (lambda (#:x) (if (riemann-hypothesis-is-true?) (lambda (#:y) ...) (lambda (#:z) ...))).
2018-10-11T23:50:55Z Riastradh: rudybot: eval (values 1 2 3)
2018-10-11T23:51:03Z Riastradh: rudybot?
2018-10-11T23:51:05Z rudybot: Riastradh: your r5rs sandbox is ready
2018-10-11T23:51:05Z rudybot: Riastradh: ; Value: 1
2018-10-11T23:51:06Z rudybot: Riastradh: ; Value#2: 2
2018-10-11T23:51:07Z rudybot: Riastradh: ; Value#3: 3
2018-10-11T23:51:20Z Riastradh: rudybot: eval (receive (x y z) (values 1 2 3) `((x ,x) (y ,y) (z ,z)))
2018-10-11T23:51:20Z rudybot: Riastradh: error: receive: undefined; <NEWLINE>  cannot reference an identifier before its definition <NEWLINE>   in module: 'program
2018-10-11T23:51:22Z Riastradh: Bah.
2018-10-11T23:51:35Z Riastradh: rudybot: eval (call-with-values (lambda () (values 1 2 3)) (lambda (x y z) `((x ,x) (y ,y) (z ,z))))
2018-10-11T23:51:35Z rudybot: Riastradh: ; Value: (mcons (mcons 'x (mcons 1 '())) (mcons (mcons 'y (mcons 2 '())) (mcons (mcons 'z (mcons 3 '())) '())))
2018-10-11T23:51:38Z Riastradh: Oy.
2018-10-11T23:52:06Z Riastradh: mihkkal: Anyway, just like procedures can take multiple arguments, they can return multiple values.
2018-10-11T23:52:14Z Riastradh: You can think of it like returning a list of values.
2018-10-11T23:56:59Z vxe joined #scheme
2018-10-12T00:05:50Z Guest13389 quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2018-10-12T00:14:03Z robotoad quit (Quit: robotoad)
2018-10-12T00:15:08Z mange joined #scheme
2018-10-12T00:15:37Z mihkkal quit (Quit: Page closed)
2018-10-12T00:17:10Z pjb quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2018-10-12T00:18:44Z Guest13389 joined #scheme
2018-10-12T00:19:02Z r1b joined #scheme
2018-10-12T00:31:13Z razzy quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
2018-10-12T00:44:49Z pjb joined #scheme
2018-10-12T00:45:40Z r1b quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
2018-10-12T00:49:46Z JohnTalent quit (Quit: Leaving)
2018-10-12T00:50:04Z hugh_marera joined #scheme
2018-10-12T00:52:12Z r1b joined #scheme
2018-10-12T01:17:18Z pjb quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2018-10-12T01:44:18Z pie___ joined #scheme
2018-10-12T01:45:33Z copec quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2018-10-12T01:46:44Z r1b quit (Quit: r1b)
2018-10-12T01:48:03Z pie__ quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2018-10-12T01:48:47Z Guest13389 quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
2018-10-12T01:52:46Z copec joined #scheme
2018-10-12T01:54:17Z hugh_marera quit (Quit: hugh_marera)
2018-10-12T01:58:30Z lritter quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2018-10-12T01:59:07Z lritter joined #scheme
2018-10-12T02:02:01Z Guest13389 joined #scheme
2018-10-12T02:06:50Z lritter quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2018-10-12T02:08:24Z lambda-11235 joined #scheme
2018-10-12T02:18:10Z robotoad joined #scheme
2018-10-12T02:25:19Z flerovite joined #scheme
2018-10-12T02:25:53Z segfault_ quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2018-10-12T03:14:40Z pjb joined #scheme
2018-10-12T03:47:38Z pjb quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2018-10-12T04:05:25Z robotoad_ joined #scheme
2018-10-12T04:06:16Z ravndal quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
2018-10-12T04:06:47Z robotoad quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
2018-10-12T04:06:47Z joast quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
2018-10-12T04:06:48Z alphor quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
2018-10-12T04:07:18Z acarrico quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
2018-10-12T04:08:53Z acarrico joined #scheme
2018-10-12T04:08:53Z ravndal joined #scheme
2018-10-12T04:08:53Z alphor joined #scheme
2018-10-12T04:22:11Z pjb joined #scheme
2018-10-12T04:29:00Z drewc quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
2018-10-12T04:29:00Z ecraven quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
2018-10-12T04:29:15Z ecraven joined #scheme
2018-10-12T04:30:33Z charh quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
2018-10-12T04:30:42Z charh joined #scheme
2018-10-12T04:32:40Z drewc joined #scheme
2018-10-12T04:38:15Z webshinra quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2018-10-12T04:38:33Z webshinra joined #scheme
2018-10-12T04:43:49Z muelleme_ joined #scheme
2018-10-12T04:47:46Z ggole joined #scheme
2018-10-12T04:48:38Z muelleme_ quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
2018-10-12T04:55:48Z pjb quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2018-10-12T05:04:40Z mange quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
2018-10-12T05:15:46Z evhan quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
2018-10-12T05:17:00Z dmiles quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
2018-10-12T05:28:47Z dmiles joined #scheme
2018-10-12T05:33:58Z badkins quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2018-10-12T05:34:42Z dmiles quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2018-10-12T05:44:49Z muelleme_ joined #scheme
2018-10-12T05:49:43Z muelleme_ quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
2018-10-12T06:06:34Z klovett_ quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2018-10-12T06:07:12Z klovett joined #scheme
2018-10-12T06:40:08Z lambda-11235 quit (Quit: Bye)
2018-10-12T06:48:15Z dmiles joined #scheme
2018-10-12T06:52:06Z badkins joined #scheme
2018-10-12T07:02:58Z amz3 quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2018-10-12T07:14:46Z florilege joined #scheme
2018-10-12T07:23:36Z TheGreekOwl quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2018-10-12T07:46:53Z daviid quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
2018-10-12T08:03:30Z greatscottttt joined #scheme
2018-10-12T08:12:43Z florilege quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
2018-10-12T08:17:37Z ioa joined #scheme
2018-10-12T08:17:47Z ioa: good morning
2018-10-12T08:22:23Z TheGreekOwl joined #scheme
2018-10-12T08:32:46Z keep_learning_M joined #scheme
2018-10-12T08:40:29Z evhan joined #scheme
2018-10-12T08:45:30Z keep_learning_M quit (Quit: Leaving)
2018-10-12T08:49:46Z robotoad_ quit (Quit: robotoad_)
2018-10-12T08:56:13Z civodul joined #scheme
2018-10-12T08:57:46Z florilege joined #scheme
2018-10-12T10:35:00Z rotty quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2018-10-12T10:38:55Z epony quit (Quit: QUIT)
2018-10-12T10:48:36Z rotty joined #scheme
2018-10-12T11:19:43Z DGASAU quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2018-10-12T11:45:11Z muelleme_ joined #scheme
2018-10-12T11:49:49Z muelleme_ quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
2018-10-12T11:52:30Z outtabwz left #scheme
2018-10-12T12:16:04Z thevishy joined #scheme
2018-10-12T12:57:56Z DGASAU joined #scheme
2018-10-12T13:03:43Z DGASAU quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2018-10-12T13:05:26Z DGASAU joined #scheme
2018-10-12T13:17:19Z joast joined #scheme
2018-10-12T13:31:28Z greatscottttt quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.9)
2018-10-12T13:37:36Z TheGreekOwl quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2018-10-12T13:45:46Z TheGreekOwl joined #scheme
2018-10-12T14:10:31Z lritter joined #scheme
2018-10-12T14:14:18Z groovy2shoes quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2018-10-12T14:19:17Z groovy2shoes joined #scheme
2018-10-12T14:23:44Z groovy2shoes quit (Client Quit)
2018-10-12T14:35:53Z thevishy quit (Quit: thevishy)
2018-10-12T14:39:11Z florilege quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
2018-10-12T14:44:00Z klovett quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2018-10-12T14:44:17Z klovett joined #scheme
2018-10-12T14:51:04Z florilege joined #scheme
2018-10-12T14:51:20Z intcatOh joined #scheme
2018-10-12T14:56:05Z intcatOh quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2018-10-12T15:03:53Z dv`` joined #scheme
2018-10-12T15:07:01Z smazga joined #scheme
2018-10-12T15:09:30Z sloniquesF joined #scheme
2018-10-12T15:10:45Z dv`` quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2018-10-12T15:11:11Z sloniquesF quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2018-10-12T15:16:24Z TheGreekOwl quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
2018-10-12T15:22:16Z robotoad joined #scheme
2018-10-12T15:22:54Z alezost joined #scheme
2018-10-12T15:25:49Z badkins quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2018-10-12T15:43:38Z daviid joined #scheme
2018-10-12T15:44:09Z jim-p joined #scheme
2018-10-12T15:48:56Z jim-p quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2018-10-12T15:57:10Z pentiumone133 joined #scheme
2018-10-12T15:58:37Z pentiumone133 quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2018-10-12T16:00:54Z civodul quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 26.1))
2018-10-12T16:06:56Z danwellbyuO joined #scheme
2018-10-12T16:06:59Z hugh_marera joined #scheme
2018-10-12T16:10:25Z danwellbyuO quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2018-10-12T16:19:40Z harrow joined #scheme
2018-10-12T16:22:54Z PhixionGP joined #scheme
2018-10-12T16:23:35Z harrow quit (Killed (Sigyn (Spam is off topic on freenode.)))
2018-10-12T16:27:48Z PhixionGP quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2018-10-12T16:36:49Z MurkyBananaZL joined #scheme
2018-10-12T16:43:40Z MurkyBananaZL quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2018-10-12T16:48:32Z C_Stopo joined #scheme
2018-10-12T16:52:35Z C_Stopo quit (K-Lined)
2018-10-12T16:59:13Z pie___ quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2018-10-12T17:16:13Z muelleme_ joined #scheme
2018-10-12T17:16:42Z smazga quit (Quit: leaving)
2018-10-12T17:20:54Z muelleme_ quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2018-10-12T17:22:41Z alezost quit (Quit: I live in GuixSD <http://www.gnu.org/s/guix> and Emacs <http://www.gnu.org/s/emacs>)
2018-10-12T17:24:41Z badkins joined #scheme
2018-10-12T17:26:54Z gwatt quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2018-10-12T17:27:11Z gwatt joined #scheme
2018-10-12T17:28:36Z GGMethos quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2018-10-12T17:32:17Z GGMethos joined #scheme
2018-10-12T17:32:38Z vzdraz joined #scheme
2018-10-12T17:37:41Z vzdraz quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2018-10-12T17:38:41Z GottoxYe joined #scheme
2018-10-12T17:41:57Z amirouche joined #scheme
2018-10-12T17:42:07Z amirouche: hello scheme!
2018-10-12T17:42:11Z amirouche is now known as amz3
2018-10-12T17:42:16Z amz3: hello scheme again!
2018-10-12T17:43:09Z GottoxYe quit (K-Lined)
2018-10-12T17:53:04Z DrPeteyb joined #scheme
2018-10-12T17:53:58Z DrPeteyb quit (K-Lined)
2018-10-12T17:58:59Z edgar-rft quit (Quit: Leaving)
2018-10-12T18:02:03Z muelleme_ joined #scheme
2018-10-12T18:11:04Z deutorHy joined #scheme
2018-10-12T18:11:06Z deutorHy quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2018-10-12T18:26:12Z muelleme_ quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.5)
2018-10-12T18:36:21Z w8ircgN joined #scheme
2018-10-12T18:36:51Z w8ircgN quit (K-Lined)
2018-10-12T18:38:31Z lambda-11235 joined #scheme
2018-10-12T18:40:12Z underhundenfe joined #scheme
2018-10-12T18:46:09Z hugh_marera_ joined #scheme
2018-10-12T18:47:04Z hugh_marera quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2018-10-12T18:47:04Z hugh_marera_ is now known as hugh_marera
2018-10-12T18:47:12Z underhundenfe quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2018-10-12T19:08:40Z pie__ joined #scheme
2018-10-12T19:19:11Z pie__ quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
2018-10-12T19:25:40Z pie__ joined #scheme
2018-10-12T19:34:53Z zachk joined #scheme
2018-10-12T19:35:24Z zachk quit (Changing host)
2018-10-12T19:35:24Z zachk joined #scheme
2018-10-12T19:37:09Z timirnichQr joined #scheme
2018-10-12T19:39:01Z lambda-11235 quit (Quit: Bye)
2018-10-12T19:41:26Z timirnichQr quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
2018-10-12T20:00:28Z robotoad quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2018-10-12T20:04:02Z robotoad joined #scheme
2018-10-12T20:10:48Z badkins quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2018-10-12T20:34:03Z Duns_Scrotus joined #scheme
2018-10-12T20:47:15Z ngz joined #scheme
2018-10-12T20:48:18Z hugh_marera quit (Quit: hugh_marera)
2018-10-12T20:51:04Z amz3: schemewiki.org seems down
2018-10-12T20:55:23Z amz3: FOSDEM announced there will be a devroom for minimalistic languages
2018-10-12T20:55:59Z ggole quit (Quit: ggole)
2018-10-12T21:07:18Z klovett quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2018-10-12T21:07:57Z klovett joined #scheme
2018-10-12T21:15:47Z badkins joined #scheme
2018-10-12T21:20:20Z ngz quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2018-10-12T21:28:01Z klovett quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2018-10-12T21:28:16Z klovett joined #scheme
2018-10-12T21:32:20Z sofariO joined #scheme
2018-10-12T21:33:29Z sofariO quit (K-Lined)
2018-10-12T22:02:19Z wasamasa: amz3: like, forth?
2018-10-12T22:06:38Z gnomon: Unlambda.
2018-10-12T22:08:13Z qu1j0t3: gnomon: Gesundheit!
2018-10-12T22:10:33Z gnomon sniffles
2018-10-12T22:10:34Z gnomon: Thank you
2018-10-12T22:15:29Z Riastradh: Did you catch the cold I brought back from Mexico?
2018-10-12T22:22:02Z gnomon: oh gosh I hope not
2018-10-12T22:22:11Z gnomon: Have you since shaken it?
2018-10-12T22:29:51Z rotty quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
2018-10-12T22:32:13Z pjb joined #scheme
2018-10-12T22:32:42Z Riastradh: gnomon: Yes, but in the chase it veered off and crashed into someone else.
2018-10-12T22:33:25Z rotty joined #scheme
2018-10-12T22:43:01Z r1b joined #scheme
2018-10-12T22:43:45Z r1b quit (Client Quit)
2018-10-12T22:52:58Z r1b joined #scheme
2018-10-12T22:53:23Z r1b quit (Client Quit)
2018-10-12T23:03:48Z daviid quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2018-10-12T23:12:57Z robotoad quit (Quit: robotoad)
2018-10-12T23:24:53Z amz3 quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.9.1)
2018-10-12T23:27:51Z robotoad joined #scheme
2018-10-12T23:43:06Z pie__ quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2018-10-12T23:47:10Z daviid joined #scheme
2018-10-13T00:03:27Z wigust joined #scheme
2018-10-13T00:05:28Z wigust- quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2018-10-13T00:35:21Z florilege quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2018-10-13T00:37:27Z florilege joined #scheme
2018-10-13T00:40:07Z zachk quit (Quit: Leaving)
2018-10-13T01:33:06Z acarrico quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2018-10-13T01:35:00Z kappa joined #scheme
2018-10-13T01:39:13Z florilege quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
2018-10-13T01:51:36Z terpri joined #scheme
2018-10-13T01:56:07Z lritter quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
2018-10-13T01:56:56Z lritter joined #scheme
2018-10-13T02:13:48Z Guest13389 quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2018-10-13T02:14:46Z lritter quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2018-10-13T02:27:46Z robotoad quit (Quit: robotoad)
2018-10-13T02:28:19Z Guest13389 joined #scheme
2018-10-13T02:32:24Z badkins quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2018-10-13T02:33:42Z TheGreekOwl joined #scheme
2018-10-13T02:35:53Z snits_ quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2018-10-13T02:36:38Z robotoad joined #scheme
2018-10-13T02:39:42Z pjb quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2018-10-13T02:58:05Z edgar-rft joined #scheme
2018-10-13T03:05:30Z daviid quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2018-10-13T03:15:29Z pjb joined #scheme
2018-10-13T03:25:44Z keep_learning_M joined #scheme
2018-10-13T03:38:58Z brettgilio joined #scheme
2018-10-13T03:48:37Z pjb quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2018-10-13T04:13:47Z pie__ joined #scheme
2018-10-13T04:20:46Z pjb joined #scheme
2018-10-13T04:54:16Z pjb quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2018-10-13T04:58:43Z pie__ quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2018-10-13T05:21:06Z brettgilio quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2018-10-13T05:31:15Z pjb joined #scheme
2018-10-13T05:36:23Z TheGreekOwl quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2018-10-13T05:37:40Z TheGreekOwl joined #scheme
2018-10-13T06:03:34Z pjb quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2018-10-13T06:05:26Z ggole joined #scheme
2018-10-13T06:18:30Z andyt joined #scheme
2018-10-13T06:19:56Z klovett quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2018-10-13T06:20:39Z klovett joined #scheme
2018-10-13T06:24:51Z pie_ joined #scheme
2018-10-13T06:32:09Z pie_ quit (Excess Flood)
2018-10-13T06:32:41Z pie_ joined #scheme
2018-10-13T06:37:36Z pie_ quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
2018-10-13T06:40:52Z pjb joined #scheme
2018-10-13T07:13:12Z pjb quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2018-10-13T07:19:09Z keep_learning_M quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)
2018-10-13T07:26:19Z erratic quit (Quit: this server has gone to sleep)
2018-10-13T07:35:41Z abbe quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2018-10-13T07:35:54Z abbe joined #scheme
2018-10-13T07:40:30Z hugh_marera joined #scheme
2018-10-13T07:40:49Z amz3 joined #scheme
2018-10-13T07:44:53Z erratic joined #scheme
2018-10-13T08:14:11Z robotoad quit (Quit: robotoad)
2018-10-13T08:27:18Z erratic quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2018-10-13T08:42:35Z daviid joined #scheme
2018-10-13T09:16:40Z pjb joined #scheme
2018-10-13T09:22:57Z florilege joined #scheme
2018-10-13T09:33:07Z keep_learning_M joined #scheme
2018-10-13T09:48:10Z nokdoottt joined #scheme
2018-10-13T10:15:57Z erratic joined #scheme
2018-10-13T10:58:16Z keep_learning_M quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)
2018-10-13T11:06:18Z daviid quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2018-10-13T11:07:24Z keep_learning_M joined #scheme
2018-10-13T11:09:39Z florilege quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
2018-10-13T11:10:24Z wigust quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
2018-10-13T11:12:12Z wigust joined #scheme
2018-10-13T11:13:18Z ismay joined #scheme
2018-10-13T11:19:34Z florilege joined #scheme
2018-10-13T11:40:36Z keep_learning_M quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)
2018-10-13T11:43:30Z keep_learning_M joined #scheme
2018-10-13T11:45:57Z erkin joined #scheme
2018-10-13T11:53:15Z ismay quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
2018-10-13T12:13:27Z ineiros joined #scheme
2018-10-13T12:21:02Z taylan joined #scheme
2018-10-13T12:52:19Z [X-Scale] joined #scheme
2018-10-13T12:52:50Z X-Scale quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
2018-10-13T12:52:51Z [X-Scale] is now known as X-Scale
2018-10-13T13:52:01Z badkins joined #scheme
2018-10-13T14:06:22Z badkins quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2018-10-13T14:28:28Z klovett quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2018-10-13T14:28:45Z klovett joined #scheme
2018-10-13T14:35:13Z pie_ joined #scheme
2018-10-13T14:59:14Z keep_learning_M quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)
2018-10-13T15:23:58Z lritter joined #scheme
2018-10-13T15:28:53Z erkin quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2018-10-13T15:34:03Z florilege quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2018-10-13T15:42:34Z alezost joined #scheme
2018-10-13T15:43:44Z wigust quit (Quit: ZNC 1.7.1 - https://znc.in)
2018-10-13T15:49:55Z pie_ quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
2018-10-13T15:52:12Z pflanze quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2018-10-13T15:59:45Z pie_ joined #scheme
2018-10-13T16:08:40Z florilege joined #scheme
2018-10-13T16:20:24Z jcob joined #scheme
2018-10-13T16:40:01Z erkin joined #scheme
2018-10-13T16:41:24Z pflanze joined #scheme
2018-10-13T17:20:01Z robotoad joined #scheme
2018-10-13T17:29:56Z alezost quit (Quit: I live in GuixSD <http://www.gnu.org/s/guix> and Emacs <http://www.gnu.org/s/emacs>)
2018-10-13T17:38:09Z pie_ quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
2018-10-13T17:42:57Z mejja joined #scheme
2018-10-13T17:43:23Z mejja left #scheme
2018-10-13T17:43:37Z mejja joined #scheme
2018-10-13T18:00:20Z robotoad quit (Max SendQ exceeded)
2018-10-13T18:06:29Z robotoad joined #scheme
2018-10-13T18:26:26Z zachk joined #scheme
2018-10-13T18:29:22Z mejja quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2018-10-13T18:31:38Z hugh_marera quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
2018-10-13T18:45:53Z nokdoottt quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2018-10-13T18:49:47Z robotoad quit (Quit: robotoad)
2018-10-13T18:57:46Z ggole quit (Quit: ggole)
2018-10-13T18:58:20Z robotoad joined #scheme
2018-10-13T19:04:42Z jcob quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
2018-10-13T19:08:56Z zachk quit (Changing host)
2018-10-13T19:08:56Z zachk joined #scheme
2018-10-13T19:10:30Z Zenton quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2018-10-13T19:11:01Z Zenton joined #scheme
2018-10-13T19:32:23Z marusich joined #scheme
2018-10-13T19:33:09Z terpri quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2018-10-13T19:54:13Z florilege quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2018-10-13T19:55:11Z florilege joined #scheme
2018-10-13T19:59:55Z [X-Scale] joined #scheme
2018-10-13T20:01:46Z X-Scale quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2018-10-13T20:01:47Z [X-Scale] is now known as X-Scale
2018-10-13T20:06:32Z Guest13389 quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2018-10-13T20:20:17Z lritter quit (Quit: Leaving)
2018-10-13T20:22:14Z jcob joined #scheme
2018-10-13T20:29:28Z Guest13389 joined #scheme
2018-10-13T20:51:28Z daviid joined #scheme
2018-10-13T20:57:11Z ngz joined #scheme
2018-10-13T21:18:43Z jcob quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2018-10-13T21:22:09Z jcob joined #scheme
2018-10-13T21:38:12Z ngz quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2018-10-13T21:52:52Z drewc quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2018-10-13T21:53:10Z drewc joined #scheme
2018-10-13T21:55:46Z florilege quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2018-10-13T22:05:06Z DGASAU quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2018-10-13T22:12:01Z erkin quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2018-10-13T22:21:58Z andyt is now known as andyt_
2018-10-13T22:35:24Z andyt_ is now known as andyt
2018-10-13T22:36:14Z andyt is now known as andyt_
2018-10-13T22:37:35Z mwette joined #scheme
2018-10-13T22:39:41Z mwette left #scheme
2018-10-13T23:09:43Z badkins joined #scheme
2018-10-13T23:44:56Z taylan quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2018-10-13T23:47:51Z marusich quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2018-10-13T23:53:22Z zachk quit (Quit: Leaving)
2018-10-13T23:56:34Z acarrico joined #scheme
2018-10-14T00:02:18Z TheGreekOwl quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
2018-10-14T00:11:12Z marusich joined #scheme
2018-10-14T00:25:33Z jcob quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2018-10-14T00:28:36Z pie_ joined #scheme
2018-10-14T00:59:56Z pie__ joined #scheme
2018-10-14T01:02:46Z pie_ quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
2018-10-14T01:28:04Z jcob joined #scheme
2018-10-14T01:51:09Z [X-Scale] joined #scheme
2018-10-14T01:53:21Z X-Scale quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2018-10-14T01:53:21Z [X-Scale] is now known as X-Scale
2018-10-14T02:05:56Z robotoad quit (Quit: robotoad)
2018-10-14T02:21:36Z marusich quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2018-10-14T02:25:25Z jcob quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
2018-10-14T02:39:53Z robotoad joined #scheme
2018-10-14T02:55:00Z marusich joined #scheme
2018-10-14T03:07:36Z keep_learning_M joined #scheme
2018-10-14T03:19:29Z badkins quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2018-10-14T04:08:19Z ggole joined #scheme
2018-10-14T04:16:00Z robotoad quit (Quit: robotoad)
2018-10-14T04:19:02Z fadein quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
2018-10-14T04:20:39Z fadein joined #scheme
2018-10-14T04:37:50Z robotoad joined #scheme
2018-10-14T04:37:58Z pie__ quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2018-10-14T05:18:28Z klovett quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2018-10-14T05:19:10Z klovett joined #scheme
2018-10-14T05:25:52Z evhan quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2018-10-14T05:28:15Z TheGreekOwl joined #scheme
2018-10-14T05:32:02Z florilege joined #scheme
2018-10-14T05:33:03Z JohnTalent joined #scheme
2018-10-14T06:04:43Z daviid quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2018-10-14T06:56:42Z lucier joined #scheme
2018-10-14T06:57:17Z lucier quit (Client Quit)
2018-10-14T07:07:42Z JohnTalent quit (Quit: Leaving)
2018-10-14T07:12:08Z clog quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2018-10-14T07:33:55Z clog joined #scheme
2018-10-14T07:43:09Z clog quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2018-10-14T07:46:41Z florilege quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
2018-10-14T08:02:51Z marusich quit (Quit: Leaving)
2018-10-14T08:03:15Z andyt_ is now known as andyt
2018-10-14T08:16:45Z taylan joined #scheme
2018-10-14T09:28:59Z robotoad quit (Quit: robotoad)
2018-10-14T09:31:50Z erkin joined #scheme
2018-10-14T09:36:50Z florilege joined #scheme
2018-10-14T09:40:58Z clog joined #scheme
2018-10-14T09:42:49Z siraben joined #scheme
2018-10-14T09:44:50Z robotoad joined #scheme
2018-10-14T09:53:38Z keep_learning_M quit (Quit: Leaving)
2018-10-14T10:10:07Z hugh_marera joined #scheme
2018-10-14T10:19:38Z hugh_marera quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2018-10-14T10:22:28Z hugh_marera joined #scheme
2018-10-14T11:07:28Z robotoad quit (Quit: robotoad)
2018-10-14T11:22:22Z pie__ joined #scheme
2018-10-14T11:30:38Z daviid joined #scheme
2018-10-14T12:30:29Z ggole quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
2018-10-14T12:30:55Z GGMethos quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
2018-10-14T12:31:09Z Gnuxie[m] quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
2018-10-14T12:31:56Z ggole joined #scheme
2018-10-14T12:32:48Z Gnuxie[m] joined #scheme
2018-10-14T12:34:17Z GGMethos joined #scheme
2018-10-14T12:57:49Z TheGreekOwl quit (Quit: I must go, my planet needs me.)
2018-10-14T12:58:16Z TheGreekOwl joined #scheme
2018-10-14T13:13:29Z m1dnight_ quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.2)
2018-10-14T13:18:30Z cemerick quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2018-10-14T13:22:29Z cemerick joined #scheme
2018-10-14T13:24:59Z erkin quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2018-10-14T13:49:55Z weinholt quit
2018-10-14T13:56:54Z weinholt joined #scheme
2018-10-14T14:16:31Z klovett quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2018-10-14T14:17:39Z klovett joined #scheme
2018-10-14T14:27:09Z pie__ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2018-10-14T14:27:16Z pie_ joined #scheme
2018-10-14T14:56:01Z amz3: schemewiki is still down :[
2018-10-14T15:07:15Z rain2: we could start a new wiki
2018-10-14T15:16:36Z montokapro joined #scheme
2018-10-14T15:18:04Z jcob joined #scheme
2018-10-14T15:25:43Z gwatt: I think someone was working on something like that.
2018-10-14T15:26:04Z gwatt: scheme-lang.com or .net or something
2018-10-14T15:26:18Z rain2: who?
2018-10-14T15:26:34Z gwatt: dunno, someone in this channel
2018-10-14T15:40:41Z lambda-11235 joined #scheme
2018-10-14T15:42:07Z InverseRhombus quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
2018-10-14T15:52:07Z siraben quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2018-10-14T15:52:45Z siraben joined #scheme
2018-10-14T16:00:35Z InverseRhombus joined #scheme
2018-10-14T16:11:19Z JohnTalent joined #scheme
2018-10-14T16:13:57Z siraben quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2018-10-14T16:14:46Z siraben joined #scheme
2018-10-14T16:21:04Z siraben quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2018-10-14T16:22:07Z siraben joined #scheme
2018-10-14T16:25:38Z tautologico joined #scheme
2018-10-14T16:25:53Z lambda-11235 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2018-10-14T16:26:13Z erkin joined #scheme
2018-10-14T16:37:11Z DGASAU joined #scheme
2018-10-14T16:55:29Z RichardShadark joined #scheme
2018-10-14T16:56:28Z RichardShadark quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2018-10-14T17:00:34Z RichardShadark joined #scheme
2018-10-14T17:08:48Z segfault_ joined #scheme
2018-10-14T17:12:10Z flerovite quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
2018-10-14T17:12:38Z taylan quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2018-10-14T17:15:52Z taylan joined #scheme
2018-10-14T17:20:35Z evhan joined #scheme
2018-10-14T17:21:02Z taylan quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
2018-10-14T17:30:51Z taylan joined #scheme
2018-10-14T17:32:54Z ByronJohnson quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2018-10-14T17:33:31Z ByronJohnson joined #scheme
2018-10-14T17:34:13Z RichardShadark quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2018-10-14T17:35:07Z taylan quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
2018-10-14T17:35:31Z RichardShadark joined #scheme
2018-10-14T17:45:51Z taylan joined #scheme
2018-10-14T17:47:41Z qu1j0t3: i think it was an advocacy site
2018-10-14T17:47:48Z qu1j0t3: http://scheme-lang.org maybe
2018-10-14T17:48:07Z qu1j0t3: hm, looks like that never took flight or i'm misremembering the url
2018-10-14T17:50:17Z taylan quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
2018-10-14T17:57:33Z amz3: it is me that was working on scheme-lang.com
2018-10-14T17:57:49Z amz3: I guess I will go back to it
2018-10-14T17:59:52Z rain2: amz3: what about using s-expressions for the wiki markup language?
2018-10-14T18:00:51Z taylan joined #scheme
2018-10-14T18:05:40Z qu1j0t3: amz3: Ah was about to try the .com
2018-10-14T18:05:53Z taylan quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
2018-10-14T18:13:12Z amz3: rain2: yes, my thinking is that s-expr will be a nice replacement for a wiki that aims to replace wikipedia, that is, which requires a lot of logic (?)
2018-10-14T18:13:28Z amz3: I have a parser for something like that
2018-10-14T18:13:59Z amz3: I need to improve error handling tho
2018-10-14T18:15:52Z taylan joined #scheme
2018-10-14T18:20:30Z taylan quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2018-10-14T18:20:55Z robotoad joined #scheme
2018-10-14T18:30:50Z taylan joined #scheme
2018-10-14T18:35:47Z taylan quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
2018-10-14T18:45:49Z taylan joined #scheme
2018-10-14T18:50:44Z taylan quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
2018-10-14T18:53:05Z amz3: I need to settle on a design. Going bootstrap css seems correct but not fantastic
2018-10-14T18:53:15Z wasamasa: it's a start
2018-10-14T18:53:31Z wasamasa: if you can't do webdesign, use bootstrap
2018-10-14T19:00:19Z alezost joined #scheme
2018-10-14T19:00:50Z taylan joined #scheme
2018-10-14T19:01:55Z erratic quit (Quit: this server has gone to sleep)
2018-10-14T19:05:36Z taylan quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2018-10-14T19:14:17Z segfault_ is now known as flerovite
2018-10-14T19:15:49Z taylan joined #scheme
2018-10-14T19:20:21Z taylan quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2018-10-14T19:26:46Z taylan joined #scheme
2018-10-14T19:34:32Z ggole quit (Quit: ggole)
2018-10-14T19:42:36Z ngz joined #scheme
2018-10-14T19:50:32Z TheGreekOwl quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
2018-10-14T19:54:20Z daviid quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2018-10-14T20:00:05Z daviid joined #scheme
2018-10-14T20:02:19Z m1dnight_ joined #scheme
2018-10-14T20:23:25Z lritter joined #scheme
2018-10-14T20:32:00Z amz3: I found the design I prepared, it's not bad.
2018-10-14T20:35:23Z ngz quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
2018-10-14T20:48:32Z jcowan: I'm working on a SRFI 4 implementation now, based on (r6rs bytevectors), for which I have a mostly-portable implementation
2018-10-14T20:48:56Z jcowan: you just need a few bitwise operations and the ieee native single and double float procedures
2018-10-14T21:20:14Z RichardShadark quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
2018-10-14T21:22:32Z DGASAU quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2018-10-14T21:26:37Z DGASAU joined #scheme
2018-10-14T21:42:15Z oni-on-ion joined #scheme
2018-10-14T21:52:31Z yumh quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
2018-10-14T21:55:30Z yumh joined #scheme
2018-10-14T21:57:06Z lritter quit (Quit: Leaving)
2018-10-14T22:17:49Z hugh_marera quit (Quit: hugh_marera)
2018-10-14T22:25:10Z jcowan: It turns out that earlier statements by me that R6RS does not require support for exact complex numbers are, umm, inoperative.
2018-10-14T22:25:32Z jcowan: (I actually heard Ron Ziegler say that, back when)
2018-10-14T22:26:07Z jcowan: make-rectangular is in the list of procedures that must return exact results given exact arguments, so 2+3i must exist distinct from 2.0+3.0i
2018-10-14T22:26:29Z jcowan: however, 2.0+3i and/or 2+3.0i can be eqv? to 2.0+3.0i
2018-10-14T22:27:18Z jcowan: which means I have to have a ballot item asking whether R7RS-large is to require exact complex numbers or not.
2018-10-14T22:36:33Z taylan quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2018-10-14T22:40:57Z erkin quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2018-10-14T22:44:05Z pjb quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
2018-10-14T22:46:43Z lavaflow quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2018-10-14T22:47:01Z Zenton quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
2018-10-14T22:48:38Z lavaflow joined #scheme
2018-10-14T22:55:12Z alezost quit (Quit: I live in GuixSD <http://www.gnu.org/s/guix> and Emacs <http://www.gnu.org/s/emacs>)
2018-10-14T23:02:34Z DGASAU quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2018-10-14T23:03:40Z DGASAU joined #scheme
2018-10-14T23:11:43Z daviid quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2018-10-14T23:23:49Z robotoad quit (Quit: robotoad)
2018-10-14T23:27:06Z montokapro quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
2018-10-14T23:32:00Z JohnTalent quit (Quit: Leaving)
2018-10-14T23:40:00Z energizer quit (Quit: ZNC 1.7.0+deb0+xenial1 - https://znc.in)
2018-10-14T23:41:57Z energizer joined #scheme
2018-10-14T23:56:04Z DGASAU quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2018-10-14T23:57:25Z wilfredh joined #scheme
2018-10-15T00:03:46Z daviid joined #scheme
2018-10-15T00:31:35Z ccl-logbot joined #scheme
2018-10-15T00:31:35Z 
2018-10-15T00:31:35Z names: ccl-logbot daviid wilfredh energizer lavaflow yumh oni-on-ion m1dnight_ ByronJohnson evhan flerovite tautologico siraben InverseRhombus jcob pie_ klovett weinholt cemerick GGMethos Gnuxie[m] clog florilege fadein X-Scale acarrico drewc Guest13389 pflanze ineiros amz3 abbe andyt edgar-rft kappa rotty Duns_Scrotus gwatt joast ioa dmiles webshinra charh ecraven alphor ravndal copec vxe emar iskander Seb[m]11 ozzloy sethalves keep_learning mbakke
2018-10-15T00:31:35Z names: proksi[m] remix2000[m] balkamos remix2000 lpsmith emacsomancer Nizumzen divergence turbofail f8l jcowan ft eMBee catern pilcrow carc gko ArneBab defanor greaser|q kwmiebach weltung stux16777216Away niklasl tolja jp nckx Kryo dpk elly aeth ec physpi jim piccolo z0d dan64 cibs `micro hugo emma qu1j0t3 sudden rudybot willghatch[m] spectrumgomas[m] plll[m] rann kjeldahl Kooda yosafbridge` davl ski gabot eagleflo mats kilimanjaro kbtr stephe duncanm
2018-10-15T00:31:35Z names: LeoNerd greghendershott rjungemann samth terrorjack hook54321 bheesham szgyg fowlduck SirDayBat rain2 ventonegro scroll2_ dkrm_ sz0_ snow_bckspc ssake Guest40074 DerGuteMoritz pchrist cross mario-goulart averell Blkt_ Kkiro_ Combinatorialist dsp davexunit Ober profan tomasmu cmaloney Riastradh ghostyy fizzie jyc f32ff cky deuill DeeEff1 asumu ManDay[m] ArthurAGleckler[ Menche nisstyre fgudin wingo cmatei ng0 reverse_light gnomon tessier hive-mind
2018-10-15T00:31:35Z names: cortisol wasamasa stux|work M_D_K blt drot Labu dieggsy ohama payphone pyro- mrm kjak amoe foof`
2018-10-15T00:34:48Z florilege quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
2018-10-15T00:36:59Z florilege joined #scheme
2018-10-15T00:41:12Z acarrico quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2018-10-15T00:43:21Z Inline joined #scheme
2018-10-15T00:44:37Z siraben quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 26.1))
2018-10-15T00:44:48Z Inline quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2018-10-15T00:45:15Z Inline joined #scheme
2018-10-15T00:46:21Z siraben joined #scheme
2018-10-15T01:09:15Z rotty quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2018-10-15T01:10:58Z siraben quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 26.1))
2018-10-15T01:13:01Z lambda-11235 joined #scheme
2018-10-15T01:23:09Z siraben joined #scheme
2018-10-15T01:23:15Z siraben` joined #scheme
2018-10-15T01:25:41Z siraben quit (Client Quit)
2018-10-15T01:28:11Z robotoad joined #scheme
2018-10-15T01:31:40Z siraben` quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 26.1))
2018-10-15T01:32:35Z siraben joined #scheme
2018-10-15T01:35:39Z rotty joined #scheme
2018-10-15T01:59:46Z siraben quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2018-10-15T02:05:17Z robotoad quit (Quit: robotoad)
2018-10-15T02:07:03Z wilfredh quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity)
2018-10-15T02:22:58Z robotoad joined #scheme
2018-10-15T02:26:01Z jcob quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2018-10-15T02:55:20Z daviid quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
2018-10-15T03:16:42Z lockywolf joined #scheme
2018-10-15T03:19:46Z lockywolf_ joined #scheme
2018-10-15T03:22:49Z lockywolf__ joined #scheme
2018-10-15T03:23:35Z lockywolf quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
2018-10-15T03:25:06Z lockywolf_ quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2018-10-15T03:33:07Z lritter joined #scheme
2018-10-15T03:34:21Z lritter quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2018-10-15T03:34:27Z lambda-11235 quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2018-10-15T03:34:49Z lockywolf_ joined #scheme
2018-10-15T03:37:53Z lockywolf__ quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
2018-10-15T03:48:34Z Guest13389 quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
2018-10-15T03:49:15Z robotoad quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2018-10-15T03:51:30Z robotoad joined #scheme
2018-10-15T03:57:49Z florilege quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
2018-10-15T04:09:50Z Guest13389 joined #scheme
2018-10-15T04:24:57Z lockywolf_ quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
2018-10-15T04:36:23Z klovett quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2018-10-15T04:37:17Z klovett joined #scheme
2018-10-15T04:44:31Z lockywolf joined #scheme
2018-10-15T04:47:55Z lockywolf_ joined #scheme
2018-10-15T04:50:21Z lockywolf quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2018-10-15T04:53:56Z DGASAU joined #scheme
2018-10-15T05:08:11Z lockywolf joined #scheme
2018-10-15T05:09:05Z robotoad quit (Max SendQ exceeded)
2018-10-15T05:10:06Z lockywolf_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2018-10-15T05:20:36Z florilege joined #scheme
2018-10-15T05:27:08Z robotoad joined #scheme
2018-10-15T05:35:53Z robotoad_ joined #scheme
2018-10-15T05:37:08Z ggole joined #scheme
2018-10-15T05:37:34Z robotoad quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
2018-10-15T05:43:03Z TheGreekOwl joined #scheme
2018-10-15T05:58:16Z ggole quit (Quit: ggole)
2018-10-15T06:20:18Z lockywolf_ joined #scheme
2018-10-15T06:21:41Z lockywolf quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
2018-10-15T06:30:15Z florilege quit (Quit: Lost terminal)
2018-10-15T06:31:20Z DGASAU quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2018-10-15T06:35:59Z lockywolf_ quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
2018-10-15T06:37:05Z lockywolf joined #scheme
2018-10-15T06:48:02Z DGASAU joined #scheme
2018-10-15T06:48:55Z lavaflow quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2018-10-15T06:51:51Z lockywolf quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2018-10-15T06:52:16Z lockywolf joined #scheme
2018-10-15T06:52:47Z lavaflow joined #scheme
2018-10-15T06:55:43Z amz3 quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2018-10-15T07:03:56Z lockywolf quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
2018-10-15T07:43:18Z civodul joined #scheme
2018-10-15T07:48:24Z carc quit (Quit: QUIT)
2018-10-15T07:49:54Z carc joined #scheme
2018-10-15T07:52:00Z daviid joined #scheme
2018-10-15T07:55:54Z mejja joined #scheme
2018-10-15T08:04:46Z daviid` joined #scheme
2018-10-15T08:09:02Z daviid quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2018-10-15T08:34:52Z xvx joined #scheme
2018-10-15T08:35:29Z Zenton joined #scheme
2018-10-15T08:36:16Z robotoad_ quit (Quit: robotoad_)
2018-10-15T08:58:51Z xvx quit (Quit: xvx)
2018-10-15T09:02:48Z mejja quit
2018-10-15T10:09:17Z ggole joined #scheme
2018-10-15T11:08:49Z amz3 joined #scheme
2018-10-15T11:21:13Z siraben joined #scheme
2018-10-15T11:38:44Z edgar-rft quit (Quit: Leaving)
2018-10-15T11:56:03Z siraben[m] joined #scheme
2018-10-15T11:57:05Z siraben quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 26.1))
2018-10-15T12:10:06Z rotty quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2018-10-15T12:11:49Z keep_learning quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
2018-10-15T12:12:00Z rotty joined #scheme
2018-10-15T12:31:04Z erkin joined #scheme
2018-10-15T13:07:00Z amz3 quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2018-10-15T13:23:36Z Inline quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2018-10-15T13:30:43Z Inline joined #scheme
2018-10-15T14:08:11Z badkins joined #scheme
2018-10-15T14:10:41Z klovett quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2018-10-15T14:10:59Z klovett joined #scheme
2018-10-15T14:16:39Z badkins_ joined #scheme
2018-10-15T14:17:15Z amz3 joined #scheme
2018-10-15T14:20:05Z badkins quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
2018-10-15T14:25:02Z badkins_ is now known as badkins
2018-10-15T14:26:35Z rudybot quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
2018-10-15T14:27:10Z rudybot joined #scheme
2018-10-15T14:42:55Z robotoad joined #scheme
2018-10-15T14:51:26Z charh quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
2018-10-15T14:52:10Z charh joined #scheme
2018-10-15T14:53:49Z robotoad quit (Quit: robotoad)
2018-10-15T15:21:30Z alezost joined #scheme
2018-10-15T15:27:48Z Guest13389 quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2018-10-15T15:28:02Z robotoad joined #scheme
2018-10-15T15:30:44Z smazga joined #scheme
2018-10-15T15:30:47Z webshinra quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2018-10-15T15:42:27Z Guest13389 joined #scheme
2018-10-15T15:44:47Z civodul quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 26.1))
2018-10-15T15:59:03Z alezost quit (Quit: I live in GuixSD <http://www.gnu.org/s/guix> and Emacs <http://www.gnu.org/s/emacs>)
2018-10-15T16:03:33Z smazga quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2018-10-15T16:05:54Z smazga joined #scheme
2018-10-15T16:06:34Z badkins quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2018-10-15T16:22:33Z lritter joined #scheme
2018-10-15T16:46:39Z klovett quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
2018-10-15T16:48:46Z badkins joined #scheme
2018-10-15T16:51:18Z amz3 quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2018-10-15T16:55:08Z hugh_marera joined #scheme
2018-10-15T16:55:19Z hugh_marera quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2018-10-15T16:57:35Z pjb joined #scheme
2018-10-15T16:59:28Z hugh_marera joined #scheme
2018-10-15T17:12:22Z snits joined #scheme
2018-10-15T17:22:49Z hugh_marera quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
2018-10-15T17:24:20Z xvx joined #scheme
2018-10-15T17:36:46Z xvx quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2018-10-15T17:37:57Z smazga quit (Quit: leaving)
2018-10-15T17:41:34Z Zenton quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2018-10-15T18:06:29Z amz3 joined #scheme
2018-10-15T18:07:05Z hugh_marera joined #scheme
2018-10-15T18:13:14Z zachk joined #scheme
2018-10-15T18:14:48Z zachk quit (Changing host)
2018-10-15T18:14:48Z zachk joined #scheme
2018-10-15T18:42:33Z hugh_marera quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2018-10-15T18:49:53Z webshinra joined #scheme
2018-10-15T18:56:08Z klovett joined #scheme
2018-10-15T19:18:56Z segfault_ joined #scheme
2018-10-15T19:20:01Z civodul joined #scheme
2018-10-15T19:21:55Z flerovite quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2018-10-15T19:27:54Z Zenton joined #scheme
2018-10-15T19:31:27Z badkins quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2018-10-15T19:46:55Z thevishy joined #scheme
2018-10-15T20:15:36Z ggole quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2018-10-15T20:16:27Z mejja joined #scheme
2018-10-15T20:39:58Z mejja quit (Quit: mejja)
2018-10-15T20:57:09Z edgar-rft joined #scheme
2018-10-15T20:59:29Z InverseRhombus quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2018-10-15T21:34:17Z ngz joined #scheme
2018-10-15T21:57:13Z civodul quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 26.1))
2018-10-15T22:17:48Z robotoad quit (Quit: robotoad)
2018-10-15T22:19:12Z robotoad joined #scheme
2018-10-15T22:28:14Z thevishy quit (Quit: thevishy)
2018-10-15T22:48:15Z ngz quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2018-10-15T22:54:17Z robotoad quit (Quit: robotoad)
2018-10-15T22:57:26Z daviid` quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 25.2.2))
2018-10-15T23:08:22Z daviid joined #scheme
2018-10-15T23:41:16Z klovett_ joined #scheme
2018-10-15T23:44:08Z pjb quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2018-10-15T23:44:56Z klovett quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
2018-10-16T00:09:38Z daviid quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
2018-10-16T00:13:57Z badkins joined #scheme
2018-10-16T00:14:13Z Zenton quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2018-10-16T00:16:47Z pjb joined #scheme
2018-10-16T00:16:53Z Zenton joined #scheme
2018-10-16T00:23:48Z mange joined #scheme
2018-10-16T00:36:21Z groovy2shoes joined #scheme
2018-10-16T00:42:26Z zachk quit (Quit: Leaving)
2018-10-16T00:49:46Z pjb quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2018-10-16T01:05:30Z terpri joined #scheme
2018-10-16T01:10:42Z keep_learning joined #scheme
2018-10-16T01:21:47Z charh quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
2018-10-16T01:23:15Z pjb joined #scheme
2018-10-16T01:35:40Z R2q2 joined #scheme
2018-10-16T01:37:00Z R2q2: Hi
2018-10-16T01:37:17Z R2q2: Schemewiki .org appears to be down
2018-10-16T01:44:23Z R2q2 quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2018-10-16T01:50:57Z lritter quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2018-10-16T01:56:41Z pjb quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2018-10-16T01:57:56Z excelsior joined #scheme
2018-10-16T01:58:37Z Zipheir joined #scheme
2018-10-16T01:59:29Z TheGreekOwl quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
2018-10-16T02:25:30Z pjb joined #scheme
2018-10-16T02:51:51Z robotoad joined #scheme
2018-10-16T02:56:21Z Ober: space is a site killer
2018-10-16T02:58:06Z pjb quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2018-10-16T03:03:29Z montokapro joined #scheme
2018-10-16T03:16:31Z linack joined #scheme
2018-10-16T03:19:30Z erkin quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2018-10-16T03:35:20Z pjb joined #scheme
2018-10-16T03:54:13Z excelsior quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2018-10-16T04:02:04Z linack quit (Quit: Leaving)
2018-10-16T04:08:11Z pjb quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
2018-10-16T04:13:37Z montokapro quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2018-10-16T04:22:07Z robotoad quit (Max SendQ exceeded)
2018-10-16T04:34:39Z lambda-11235 joined #scheme
2018-10-16T04:42:39Z robotoad joined #scheme
2018-10-16T04:43:32Z charh joined #scheme
2018-10-16T04:43:59Z pjb joined #scheme
2018-10-16T04:59:00Z robotoad quit (Max SendQ exceeded)
2018-10-16T05:04:57Z robotoad joined #scheme
2018-10-16T05:16:39Z pjb quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
2018-10-16T05:20:34Z pjb joined #scheme
2018-10-16T05:23:33Z robotoad quit (Max SendQ exceeded)
2018-10-16T05:36:20Z robotoad joined #scheme
2018-10-16T05:46:57Z klovett_ quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2018-10-16T05:47:31Z klovett joined #scheme
2018-10-16T05:50:25Z thevishy joined #scheme
2018-10-16T05:51:06Z thevishy quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2018-10-16T05:54:36Z robotoad quit (Max SendQ exceeded)
2018-10-16T06:06:18Z robotoad joined #scheme
2018-10-16T06:54:14Z Fare joined #scheme
2018-10-16T06:54:22Z robotoad quit (Max SendQ exceeded)
2018-10-16T06:57:05Z amz3 quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
2018-10-16T06:57:13Z robotoad joined #scheme
2018-10-16T07:08:34Z f8l quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2018-10-16T07:09:40Z lambda-11235 quit (Quit: Bye)
2018-10-16T07:09:56Z f8l joined #scheme
2018-10-16T07:16:04Z mange quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2018-10-16T07:27:18Z civodul joined #scheme
2018-10-16T07:31:52Z Fare quit (Quit: Leaving)
2018-10-16T08:12:33Z longshi joined #scheme
2018-10-16T08:17:38Z longshi quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.2)
2018-10-16T08:23:56Z bor0 joined #scheme
2018-10-16T08:32:03Z ggole joined #scheme
2018-10-16T08:51:38Z Zenton quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2018-10-16T08:52:43Z InverseRhombus joined #scheme
2018-10-16T08:53:10Z InverseRhombus quit (Max SendQ exceeded)
2018-10-16T08:53:30Z InverseRhombus joined #scheme
2018-10-16T08:55:11Z Zenton joined #scheme
2018-10-16T08:58:01Z klovett quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2018-10-16T08:58:15Z klovett joined #scheme
2018-10-16T09:01:03Z edgar-rft quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2018-10-16T09:23:54Z robotoad quit (Quit: robotoad)
2018-10-16T09:27:02Z amz3 joined #scheme
2018-10-16T09:48:46Z InverseRhombus quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2018-10-16T11:03:20Z TheGreekOwl joined #scheme
2018-10-16T11:03:24Z TheGreekOwl quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2018-10-16T11:03:50Z TheGreekOwl joined #scheme
2018-10-16T11:07:20Z siraben[m]: Zipheir:
2018-10-16T11:07:32Z siraben[m]: Zipheir_: How's the little typer?
2018-10-16T11:09:39Z amz3: good question
2018-10-16T11:25:39Z civodul is willing to get a copy of it
2018-10-16T11:29:19Z skapata joined #scheme
2018-10-16T11:45:55Z catonano joined #scheme
2018-10-16T11:51:01Z DGASAU quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2018-10-16T11:57:53Z amoe quit (Quit: leaving)
2018-10-16T12:07:44Z f8l quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2018-10-16T12:09:11Z InverseRhombus joined #scheme
2018-10-16T12:09:35Z f8l joined #scheme
2018-10-16T12:19:24Z bor0 quit (Quit: Leaving)
2018-10-16T12:19:45Z DGASAU joined #scheme
2018-10-16T12:45:15Z z0d quit (Quit: leaving)
2018-10-16T12:46:40Z z0d joined #scheme
2018-10-16T12:46:56Z z0d quit (Client Quit)
2018-10-16T12:47:04Z DGASAU quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2018-10-16T12:48:42Z z0d joined #scheme
2018-10-16T12:57:28Z DGASAU joined #scheme
2018-10-16T13:30:32Z gwatt: I have it, but I haven't started it yet
2018-10-16T13:31:15Z siraben[m]: gwatt: Let me know how it goes.
2018-10-16T13:35:23Z smazga joined #scheme
2018-10-16T14:07:09Z ventonegro: Mine should arrive in a couple of weeks
2018-10-16T14:34:56Z robotoad joined #scheme
2018-10-16T14:48:31Z InverseRhombus quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2018-10-16T14:58:11Z robotoad quit (Quit: robotoad)
2018-10-16T15:21:18Z smazga quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2018-10-16T15:31:11Z robotoad joined #scheme
2018-10-16T15:32:15Z alezost joined #scheme
2018-10-16T15:34:56Z siraben[m]: Sure.  It's a book.
2018-10-16T15:35:01Z siraben[m]: http://www.thelittletyper.com/
2018-10-16T15:35:48Z siraben[m]: A continuation of "The Little -er"  series
2018-10-16T15:35:50Z siraben[m]: The Little Schemer, The Little Lisper, The LIttle Prover
2018-10-16T15:36:41Z rain2: the reasoned schemer is a really good one too
2018-10-16T15:37:05Z smazga joined #scheme
2018-10-16T15:37:09Z smazga quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2018-10-16T15:42:42Z ravndal quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2018-10-16T15:48:53Z lritter joined #scheme
2018-10-16T15:49:35Z InverseRhombus joined #scheme
2018-10-16T15:54:43Z amz3 quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.9.1)
2018-10-16T16:03:59Z catonano quit (Quit: catonano)
2018-10-16T16:38:28Z f8l quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2018-10-16T16:39:43Z f8l joined #scheme
2018-10-16T16:45:28Z Zipheir: Hey siraben[m], I don't have a copy yet. Maybe soon.
2018-10-16T16:45:47Z Zipheir: siraben[m]: Working on The Little Prover atm, have you tried it?
2018-10-16T16:47:49Z civodul quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 26.1))
2018-10-16T17:07:15Z alezost quit (Quit: I live in GuixSD <http://www.gnu.org/s/guix> and Emacs <http://www.gnu.org/s/emacs>)
2018-10-16T17:11:26Z ggole quit (Quit: ggole)
2018-10-16T17:14:44Z alfosici joined #scheme
2018-10-16T17:18:34Z amz3 joined #scheme
2018-10-16T17:21:50Z alfosici quit (Quit: Leaving)
2018-10-16T17:26:49Z hugo quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.9.1)
2018-10-16T17:27:43Z catonano joined #scheme
2018-10-16T17:28:59Z Zipheir: One-star review of the Little Typer on Amazon: "I typed this into MIT Scheme and it did not work."
2018-10-16T17:29:11Z wasamasa: lol
2018-10-16T17:29:15Z Zipheir: Sheesh.
2018-10-16T17:32:18Z hugh_marera joined #scheme
2018-10-16T17:34:26Z qu1j0t3: HAHAHAHAHHAHAH
2018-10-16T17:38:16Z charh quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
2018-10-16T17:39:59Z charh joined #scheme
2018-10-16T17:40:42Z aeth: One-star review of <insert advanced mathematics textbook here> on Amazon: "I typed this into Coq and the proofs did not work."
2018-10-16T17:40:43Z hugo joined #scheme
2018-10-16T17:40:56Z aeth: :-p
2018-10-16T17:41:12Z gnomon: One-star review of cookbooks on Amazon: "I typed this into my Instant Pot and the recipes did not work"
2018-10-16T17:41:29Z aeth: Perhaps I should say "I typed the proofs into Coq verbatim" just to be clearer
2018-10-16T17:42:33Z gnomon: "I opened Coq and then dropped this book onto my keyboard but it gave me an error, one star"
2018-10-16T17:42:58Z Zipheir: In the case of The Little Typer, a misunderstanding of the last word of the title could explain things.
2018-10-16T17:45:04Z Zipheir: The justification is even funnier. "This book is from MIT, I supposed it should work in MIT Scheme?" https://www.amazon.com/gp/customer-reviews/R2VSRL0P1LULZE/ref=cm_cr_dp_d_rvw_ttl?ie=UTF8&ASIN=0262536439
2018-10-16T17:45:12Z charh quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2018-10-16T17:46:55Z Zipheir: "The book is written by someone from New Jersey, so it should work in C? I typed it into my C compiler and it did not work."
2018-10-16T17:48:52Z Duns_Scrotus: Shoulda used standard ml
2018-10-16T17:49:00Z ski: of New Jersey
2018-10-16T17:51:10Z charh joined #scheme
2018-10-16T17:59:23Z ravndal joined #scheme
2018-10-16T18:01:48Z Zenton quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2018-10-16T18:04:10Z Zenton joined #scheme
2018-10-16T18:07:58Z charh quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2018-10-16T18:09:53Z charh joined #scheme
2018-10-16T18:21:30Z wilfredh joined #scheme
2018-10-16T18:33:48Z robotoad quit (Quit: robotoad)
2018-10-16T18:39:10Z catonano quit (Quit: catonano)
2018-10-16T18:47:11Z gwatt: "1 Star. I bought The Little Typer and it did not come with a miniature stenographer."
2018-10-16T18:53:35Z f8l quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2018-10-16T18:56:29Z daviid joined #scheme
2018-10-16T18:57:49Z f8l joined #scheme
2018-10-16T19:07:56Z Zipheir: "Worst touch-typing intro ever. Examples are unreadable."
2018-10-16T19:10:21Z terpri quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2018-10-16T19:14:11Z terpri joined #scheme
2018-10-16T19:14:43Z cortisol quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
2018-10-16T19:15:57Z cortisol joined #scheme
2018-10-16T19:17:55Z charh quit (Quit: zZZzzZ)
2018-10-16T19:22:44Z smazga joined #scheme
2018-10-16T19:24:13Z cortisol quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2018-10-16T19:26:22Z cortisol joined #scheme
2018-10-16T19:35:45Z cortisol quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2018-10-16T19:36:52Z cortisol joined #scheme
2018-10-16T19:43:24Z ngz joined #scheme
2018-10-16T19:50:59Z InverseRhombus quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2018-10-16T19:53:35Z f8l quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2018-10-16T19:54:02Z RedNifre joined #scheme
2018-10-16T19:55:32Z RedNifre: howdy
2018-10-16T19:55:56Z wasamasa: hello
2018-10-16T19:57:41Z f8l joined #scheme
2018-10-16T20:00:21Z amz3: o/
2018-10-16T20:04:57Z civodul joined #scheme
2018-10-16T20:05:17Z InverseRhombus joined #scheme
2018-10-16T20:10:11Z daviid: jcowan: hello! I was trying to read your 'The Ghyll Encyclopedia', but the link -> 404, for info ...
2018-10-16T20:18:19Z jcowan: yes, I think it's moved, and so the internal links don't work
2018-10-16T20:20:50Z jcowan: The main page is now at https://www.disobey.com/wiki/Ghyll:Main_Page
2018-10-16T20:21:27Z jcowan: but when you click on anything, you have to insert "Ghyll:" by hand (or JavaScript, I suppose) just after "wiki/", as you will get a "page not in use" error otherwise.
2018-10-16T20:22:00Z daviid: great, thanks
2018-10-16T20:23:37Z f8l quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2018-10-16T20:30:33Z f8l joined #scheme
2018-10-16T20:30:49Z catonano joined #scheme
2018-10-16T20:34:15Z hugh_marera quit (Quit: hugh_marera)
2018-10-16T20:34:30Z ngz quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2018-10-16T20:38:47Z hugh_marera joined #scheme
2018-10-16T20:42:15Z zachk joined #scheme
2018-10-16T20:45:01Z cozachk joined #scheme
2018-10-16T20:46:40Z cozachk quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2018-10-16T20:47:03Z cozachk joined #scheme
2018-10-16T20:47:13Z zachk quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2018-10-16T20:47:29Z robotoad joined #scheme
2018-10-16T20:54:11Z groovy2shoes quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2018-10-16T20:57:04Z TiredOcean joined #scheme
2018-10-16T20:59:22Z TiredOcean: Hi, does anybody know who maintains http://community.schemewiki.org/ ? It went down yesterday, and I had just started using it as I'm working through SICP.
2018-10-16T21:08:48Z f8l quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2018-10-16T21:11:14Z cozachk quit (Quit: Leaving)
2018-10-16T21:15:31Z zachk joined #scheme
2018-10-16T21:15:51Z f8l joined #scheme
2018-10-16T21:16:23Z zachk quit (Changing host)
2018-10-16T21:16:23Z zachk joined #scheme
2018-10-16T21:17:22Z hugh_marera quit (Quit: hugh_marera)
2018-10-16T21:20:08Z Menche quit (Quit: ZNC 1.6.5 - http://znc.in)
2018-10-16T21:20:33Z Menche joined #scheme
2018-10-16T21:21:31Z Menche quit (Client Quit)
2018-10-16T21:21:51Z Menche joined #scheme
2018-10-16T21:39:12Z oni-on-ion quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2018-10-16T21:39:38Z TiredOcean left #scheme
2018-10-16T21:39:53Z TiredOcean joined #scheme
2018-10-16T21:41:21Z ArneBab quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2018-10-16T21:41:23Z oni-on-ion joined #scheme
2018-10-16T21:42:18Z ArneBab joined #scheme
2018-10-16T21:42:18Z ArneBab quit (Changing host)
2018-10-16T21:42:18Z ArneBab joined #scheme
2018-10-16T21:44:45Z amz3: TiredOcean: it is down nobody knows why
2018-10-16T21:45:43Z TiredOcean: Damn :(
2018-10-16T21:45:58Z TiredOcean: Does no-one know who runs it?
2018-10-16T21:48:45Z Zipheir: It's been up and down a lot lately.
2018-10-16T21:49:00Z amz3: TiredOcean: look at the way back machine maybe you will find the pages you are looking for http://web.archive.org/web/20180925214258/http://community.schemewiki.org/
2018-10-16T21:49:31Z Zipheir: Speaking of dead links, the damn topic still needs to be updated.
2018-10-16T21:54:29Z klovett quit
2018-10-16T21:56:41Z amz3: http://scheme-lang.com/ is alive
2018-10-16T21:57:05Z amz3: here is the repo https://github.com/amirouche/scheme-lang/
2018-10-16T21:57:08Z amz3: for the time being
2018-10-16T21:57:21Z amz3: https is coming
2018-10-16T22:00:24Z RedNifre quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2018-10-16T22:00:55Z civodul quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 26.1))
2018-10-16T22:04:58Z Zipheir: amz3: scheme-lang.org is your shiny landing page, right?
2018-10-16T22:05:39Z terpri_ joined #scheme
2018-10-16T22:07:11Z terpri quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
2018-10-16T22:19:03Z catonano quit (Quit: catonano)
2018-10-16T22:25:01Z TheGreekOwl quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
2018-10-16T22:32:31Z Ober: is that different from cons.io?
2018-10-16T22:33:43Z gwatt: Ober: cons.io appears to be gerbil specific
2018-10-16T22:34:16Z Ober: scheme is scheme, and hey, use the most advance one :P
2018-10-16T22:35:23Z gwatt: Guess I'll use racket then
2018-10-16T22:35:44Z Ober: how academic of you :P
2018-10-16T22:35:54Z Zipheir: 'Most advanced' can be a two-edged sword.
2018-10-16T22:36:18Z InverseRhombus quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2018-10-16T22:39:08Z f8l quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2018-10-16T22:40:31Z f8l joined #scheme
2018-10-16T22:41:31Z TiredOcean: I mean, I'm really using mit-scheme cause... SICP
2018-10-16T22:42:02Z TiredOcean: which is why I asked about the website before, for the sicp-solutions pages. There's a bunch of discussion and alternative implementations which made me prefer it to other resources
2018-10-16T22:42:23Z TiredOcean: So it would suck if it went down permanently, basically
2018-10-16T22:42:47Z Ober: choice is a good thing
2018-10-16T22:43:40Z gwatt: I think racket has a sicp mode
2018-10-16T22:56:15Z Zipheir: Yeah, the SICP discussions on schemewiki would be a nasty loss.
2018-10-16T23:01:57Z robotoad quit (Quit: robotoad)
2018-10-16T23:02:34Z TiredOcean quit (Quit: Leaving)
2018-10-16T23:03:06Z Zipheir: The lack of/dying out of Scheme hubs is rather depressing. It seems like the language is sort of Balkanized, making we Schemers easy prey for the Common Lisp hordes.
2018-10-16T23:05:09Z qu1j0t3: are you saying the CL forward team took out the hub
2018-10-16T23:06:22Z sethalves quit (Quit: Leaving.)
2018-10-16T23:06:38Z smazga quit (Quit: leaving)
2018-10-16T23:06:50Z aeth: Scheme is dead. The Racket, Guile, and Chicken programming languages are alive.
2018-10-16T23:07:01Z Zipheir: There's one of the barbarians now.
2018-10-16T23:17:01Z siraben[m]: Zipheir: Re: The Little Prover, not yet, on a reading list, though.
2018-10-16T23:21:10Z lavaflow quit (Read error: No route to host)
2018-10-16T23:23:24Z f8l quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2018-10-16T23:24:46Z f8l joined #scheme
2018-10-16T23:28:21Z lavaflow joined #scheme
2018-10-16T23:34:53Z robotoad joined #scheme
2018-10-16T23:38:49Z f8l quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2018-10-16T23:43:29Z montokapro joined #scheme
2018-10-16T23:45:43Z f8l joined #scheme
2018-10-16T23:48:50Z Zipheir: siraben[m]: It's fun, but a little odd. I'm finding that Geiser is the only way to follow along without going insane.
2018-10-16T23:49:18Z siraben[m]: How's Emacs treating you?
2018-10-16T23:49:32Z siraben[m]: Geiser is like a Scheme IDE
2018-10-16T23:49:35Z siraben[m]: Wonderful stuff
2018-10-16T23:51:31Z Zipheir: Yeah, Geiser is impressive.
2018-10-16T23:53:13Z Zipheir: But yes, proving Lisp. It's rather unfortunate that we have to prove things like (if (foo? x) (equal (foo? x) 't)).
2018-10-16T23:54:08Z Zipheir: But this is the nature of if--we can't assume that the test is boolean-valued.
2018-10-16T23:59:03Z f8l quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
2018-10-17T00:28:34Z robotoad quit (Quit: robotoad)
2018-10-17T00:51:12Z zachk quit (Quit: Leaving)
2018-10-17T00:53:26Z siraben[m]: Right.
2018-10-17T00:53:59Z siraben[m]: A formalization in Coq would be interesting. I haven't done much with theorem provers.
2018-10-17T00:54:12Z siraben[m]: Lisp is very axiomatic
2018-10-17T01:02:52Z Zipheir: siraben[m]: You might like this example. It's a simple auto-prover for point-free theorems https://paste.call-cc.org/paste?id=9cc108c1dd4abf8853238a23358ddf52539f4a0d
2018-10-17T01:04:10Z Zipheir: siraben[m]: It's like 200 lines of really clean Haskell. Richard Bird is a wizard.
2018-10-17T01:06:19Z Zipheir: siraben[m]: (partially commented by yours truly, unfortunately I haven't commented the hard parts)
2018-10-17T01:20:03Z montokapro quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2018-10-17T01:32:46Z siraben[m]: Zipheir:  Nice.  I'll take a look
2018-10-17T01:35:58Z siraben[m]: How is that book, by the way? The Bird one
2018-10-17T01:40:10Z Zipheir: Fantastic. I've been working through the exercises from that and the first edition (the one Wadler co-wrote) for the past year. It's been a great journey of many, many proofs.
2018-10-17T01:44:00Z Zipheir: I think Richard Bird is more of a cat theory nut than Wadler. He refers to it heavily in his books.
2018-10-17T01:48:39Z lritter quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2018-10-17T01:49:13Z lritter joined #scheme
2018-10-17T01:49:51Z Zipheir: But yes, in the words of SRFI-41, Bird & Wadler is "The classic text on functional programming."
2018-10-17T01:59:27Z siraben[m]: Time to get hold of it, then.
2018-10-17T02:00:19Z Zipheir: First edition: https://usi-pl.github.io/lc/sp-2015/doc/Bird_Wadler.%20Introduction%20to%20Functional%20Programming.1ed.pdf
2018-10-17T02:03:52Z robotoad joined #scheme
2018-10-17T02:05:23Z robotoad quit (Client Quit)
2018-10-17T02:10:36Z lambda-11235 joined #scheme
2018-10-17T02:12:56Z florilege joined #scheme
2018-10-17T02:14:17Z daviid` joined #scheme
2018-10-17T02:14:51Z daviid` quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2018-10-17T02:16:09Z daviid quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2018-10-17T02:18:40Z robotoad joined #scheme
2018-10-17T03:12:03Z montokapro joined #scheme
2018-10-17T03:47:47Z montokapro quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
2018-10-17T03:57:02Z pie_ quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
2018-10-17T04:09:27Z oni-on-ion quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
2018-10-17T04:15:24Z lritter quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2018-10-17T04:23:30Z oni-on-ion joined #scheme
2018-10-17T04:48:02Z Zipheir quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2018-10-17T04:50:55Z pjb quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2018-10-17T05:19:04Z aeth quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2018-10-17T05:25:04Z pjb joined #scheme
2018-10-17T05:32:25Z aeth joined #scheme
2018-10-17T05:35:27Z aeth quit (Client Quit)
2018-10-17T05:35:42Z aeth joined #scheme
2018-10-17T05:37:01Z webshinra quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2018-10-17T05:37:20Z webshinra joined #scheme
2018-10-17T05:53:43Z ecraven: are there actual video lectures for SICM?
2018-10-17T05:53:52Z ecraven: (M, not P)
2018-10-17T06:03:00Z skapata quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2018-10-17T06:09:16Z catonano joined #scheme
2018-10-17T06:39:14Z catonano quit (Quit: catonano)
2018-10-17T06:45:21Z robotoad quit (Quit: robotoad)
2018-10-17T06:54:42Z amz3 quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2018-10-17T07:01:45Z robotoad joined #scheme
2018-10-17T07:12:48Z r0kc4t joined #scheme
2018-10-17T07:24:28Z florilege quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2018-10-17T07:25:29Z lambda-11235 quit (Quit: Bye)
2018-10-17T07:35:46Z civodul joined #scheme
2018-10-17T07:41:17Z robotoad quit (Quit: robotoad)
2018-10-17T07:55:45Z ggole joined #scheme
2018-10-17T08:11:25Z RedNifre joined #scheme
2018-10-17T08:17:51Z jp quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2018-10-17T08:20:11Z ArneBab quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2018-10-17T08:20:55Z ArneBab joined #scheme
2018-10-17T08:20:56Z ArneBab quit (Changing host)
2018-10-17T08:20:56Z ArneBab joined #scheme
2018-10-17T08:41:24Z jp joined #scheme
2018-10-17T08:53:31Z catonano joined #scheme
2018-10-17T09:09:22Z TheGreekOwl joined #scheme
2018-10-17T09:25:02Z catonano quit (Quit: catonano)
2018-10-17T09:27:11Z amoe joined #scheme
2018-10-17T09:42:25Z bor0 joined #scheme
2018-10-17T10:03:57Z dmiles quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
2018-10-17T10:13:28Z RedNifre_ joined #scheme
2018-10-17T10:15:38Z dmiles joined #scheme
2018-10-17T10:16:28Z RedNifre quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
2018-10-17T10:24:23Z catonano joined #scheme
2018-10-17T10:39:56Z RedNifre_ is now known as RedNifre_away
2018-10-17T10:40:45Z Zenton quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2018-10-17T10:41:00Z Zenton joined #scheme
2018-10-17T10:52:27Z Zenton quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2018-10-17T10:52:41Z Zenton joined #scheme
2018-10-17T10:55:45Z iskander quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2018-10-17T10:57:13Z RedNifre_away quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2018-10-17T11:01:08Z RedNifre_away joined #scheme
2018-10-17T11:05:39Z catonano quit (Quit: catonano)
2018-10-17T11:06:38Z bor0 quit (Quit: Leaving)
2018-10-17T11:07:19Z razzy joined #scheme
2018-10-17T11:21:13Z wilfredh quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity)
2018-10-17T11:24:35Z lloda joined #scheme
2018-10-17T11:41:17Z catonano joined #scheme
2018-10-17T11:48:23Z tautologico quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity)
2018-10-17T11:58:35Z jcowan: I am now developing SRFI 160 (homogeneous vectors) on 3 Schemes simultaneously: Chicken, Chibi, and Guile
2018-10-17T11:58:49Z jcowan: it's the most complex SRFI implementation I've ever done
2018-10-17T11:59:41Z jcowan: at the bottom is a mostly-portable implementation of (rnrs bytevectors); on top of that is SRFI-4 and the actually exported functionality is a hacked version of SRFI 133 (the regular vector lib)
2018-10-17T12:00:11Z jcowan: it's really remarkable how little of the code is Scheme-implementation-specific
2018-10-17T12:01:46Z jcowan: as long as you have simple bytevectors, a few bitwise-* routines, and working bytevector-ieee-*-native-* (the portable implementation in SRFI 56 approximates this but fails on several cases), the whole thing should Just Work anywhere.
2018-10-17T12:03:51Z jcowan: so for me at least Scheme is far from dead
2018-10-17T12:04:12Z jcowan: aeth: ^^
2018-10-17T12:08:09Z RedNifre_away is now known as RedNifre
2018-10-17T12:18:50Z razzy: i like schemes
2018-10-17T12:20:28Z pie_ joined #scheme
2018-10-17T12:31:18Z RedNifre quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2018-10-17T12:35:30Z RedNifre joined #scheme
2018-10-17T12:49:43Z InverseRhombus joined #scheme
2018-10-17T13:13:20Z Zenton quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2018-10-17T13:13:33Z Zenton joined #scheme
2018-10-17T13:28:15Z Zenton quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2018-10-17T13:28:15Z RedNifre quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2018-10-17T13:28:29Z Zenton joined #scheme
2018-10-17T13:28:52Z RedNifre joined #scheme
2018-10-17T13:32:19Z Zenton quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2018-10-17T13:32:33Z Zenton joined #scheme
2018-10-17T13:33:16Z Zenton quit (Client Quit)
2018-10-17T13:35:03Z RedNifre quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2018-10-17T13:42:32Z RedNifre joined #scheme
2018-10-17T13:51:33Z RedNifre quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2018-10-17T14:00:53Z groovy2shoes joined #scheme
2018-10-17T14:11:10Z xvx joined #scheme
2018-10-17T14:33:26Z Inline_ joined #scheme
2018-10-17T14:35:06Z Inline quit (Disconnected by services)
2018-10-17T14:35:28Z Inline_ is now known as Inline
2018-10-17T14:36:53Z blt- joined #scheme
2018-10-17T14:38:38Z robotoad joined #scheme
2018-10-17T14:39:29Z emar2 joined #scheme
2018-10-17T14:40:06Z defanor_ joined #scheme
2018-10-17T14:40:10Z emacsoma1 joined #scheme
2018-10-17T14:42:26Z M_D_Kodar joined #scheme
2018-10-17T14:49:42Z catonano quit (*.net *.split)
2018-10-17T14:49:42Z carc quit (*.net *.split)
2018-10-17T14:49:42Z gwatt quit (*.net *.split)
2018-10-17T14:49:42Z alphor quit (*.net *.split)
2018-10-17T14:49:42Z emar quit (*.net *.split)
2018-10-17T14:49:43Z emacsomancer quit (*.net *.split)
2018-10-17T14:49:43Z pilcrow quit (*.net *.split)
2018-10-17T14:49:43Z gko quit (*.net *.split)
2018-10-17T14:49:43Z defanor quit (*.net *.split)
2018-10-17T14:49:43Z Labu quit (*.net *.split)
2018-10-17T14:49:43Z drot quit (*.net *.split)
2018-10-17T14:49:43Z blt quit (*.net *.split)
2018-10-17T14:49:43Z M_D_K quit (*.net *.split)
2018-10-17T14:49:43Z dieggsy quit (*.net *.split)
2018-10-17T14:50:16Z pilcrow joined #scheme
2018-10-17T14:56:34Z alphor joined #scheme
2018-10-17T14:56:52Z robotoad quit (Quit: robotoad)
2018-10-17T15:00:15Z siraben[m] is now known as siraben
2018-10-17T15:01:47Z gko joined #scheme
2018-10-17T15:04:02Z RedNifre joined #scheme
2018-10-17T15:04:08Z Labu joined #scheme
2018-10-17T15:05:16Z alezost joined #scheme
2018-10-17T15:14:59Z Zenton joined #scheme
2018-10-17T15:22:22Z gwatt joined #scheme
2018-10-17T15:29:31Z smazga joined #scheme
2018-10-17T15:33:17Z florilege joined #scheme
2018-10-17T15:34:34Z robotoad joined #scheme
2018-10-17T15:36:43Z klovett joined #scheme
2018-10-17T15:42:39Z drot_ joined #scheme
2018-10-17T15:43:14Z nckx quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2018-10-17T15:48:26Z daviid joined #scheme
2018-10-17T15:53:21Z Inline quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2018-10-17T15:57:31Z ecraven: jcowan: is the code available? I'd be interested in trying it out on chez
2018-10-17T15:58:20Z ecraven: btw. u24 would be very useful for RGB image formats :-/
2018-10-17T15:58:36Z ecraven: (and things like OpenGL interoperability)
2018-10-17T15:58:52Z gwatt: ecraven: chez has those in its bytevectors
2018-10-17T15:59:37Z ecraven: I know ;) but it'd be interesting to get the actual srfi working, to get at least some semblance of portable code (for what I write)
2018-10-17T16:00:01Z gwatt: Ah, fair enough
2018-10-17T16:00:56Z ecraven: jcowan: I'd consider my r7rs-swank to be (just a bit) non-trivial, yet the amount of implementation-specific code is really not that large.. given a few key srfis, you can already get quite a bit out of most schemes
2018-10-17T16:07:13Z klovett quit
2018-10-17T16:08:54Z klovett joined #scheme
2018-10-17T16:18:48Z nckx joined #scheme
2018-10-17T16:19:13Z Inline joined #scheme
2018-10-17T16:24:40Z catonano joined #scheme
2018-10-17T16:24:40Z carc joined #scheme
2018-10-17T16:24:40Z dieggsy joined #scheme
2018-10-17T16:24:40Z drot joined #scheme
2018-10-17T16:24:41Z drot quit (Quit: Quit.)
2018-10-17T16:24:41Z darthlukan joined #scheme
2018-10-17T16:26:08Z ggole quit (Quit: ggole)
2018-10-17T16:26:53Z RedNifre: Heyo. How does Scheme work on the most basic level?
2018-10-17T16:27:20Z rain2: it's applicative lambda calculus plus symbols and pairs
2018-10-17T16:27:46Z RedNifre: okay, but what exactly happens when you define a function and what exactly happens when you invoke that function later?
2018-10-17T16:27:52Z wasamasa: it's a loving embrace of eval and apply
2018-10-17T16:28:33Z rain2: when you define a function there the top level scope has a new binding from that name to that lambda term
2018-10-17T16:28:55Z RedNifre: I mean, if you define a function bla in Lisp64, what you are doing is place a lambda into the "expr" property of the bla atom. When you later do (bla ...) the interpreter finds the lambda in the "expr" prop of bla...
2018-10-17T16:29:22Z RedNifre: okay, so there is no atoms, there's scopes and the scope has "properties", so to speak?
2018-10-17T16:29:29Z wasamasa: since it's a lisp-1, an environment is just a list of bindings from symbols to values
2018-10-17T16:29:44Z jcowan: ecraven: Too soon, but I would like it to be tried out on an R6RS system other than Guile.  Is there already a SRFI-4 implementation in Chez?
2018-10-17T16:29:54Z wasamasa: of course there are atoms
2018-10-17T16:30:13Z jcowan: sure, any non-pair is an atom
2018-10-17T16:30:13Z rain2: a scope is basically a mapping from symbols to values ((x . 3) (y . 2)) for example could be the scope created by (define x 3) (define y 2)
2018-10-17T16:30:18Z wasamasa: symbols are just dethroned to mere identifiers, not storage containers for everything under the sun
2018-10-17T16:30:35Z jcowan: And there is no reqirement to implement identifiers using symbols, either
2018-10-17T16:30:44Z RedNifre: okay, having symbols in scopes that point to values answers my unanswered lisp64 question on how it decides what to do when you define both a macro and a function with the same name... in a lisp1, the last defined one simply replaces the previous one, huh?
2018-10-17T16:30:50Z jcowan: there are run-time symbols, but they have only two properties: identity and a string name.
2018-10-17T16:30:56Z wasamasa: right, if you do a compiler it could just let the symbols vanish
2018-10-17T16:31:35Z rain2: you might implement that by having ((x value 3) (y value 2)) and use (m macro foo) for macro definitions. Or you could have macro and value scopes as two separate tables
2018-10-17T16:31:41Z jcowan: RedNifre: A Scheme should allow that at the repl, but there is no requirement to allow redefinition at runtime
2018-10-17T16:31:45Z wasamasa: macros are a special case though, they aren't values
2018-10-17T16:32:07Z wasamasa: they are compile-time replacements, so I can still do (define when 1) in CHICKEN and (when 2 3) still works
2018-10-17T16:32:18Z RedNifre: that would have been my next question, what's the difference between a macro and a fexpr that returns code?
2018-10-17T16:32:34Z jcowan: Scheme has no fexprs
2018-10-17T16:32:50Z RedNifre: (my vocabulary might be wrong here, since i still have that funky Lisp64 in my head)
2018-10-17T16:33:02Z RedNifre: Oh, so no functions that take their arguments unevaluated? Hm...
2018-10-17T16:33:10Z RedNifre: So there's just regular functions and macros?
2018-10-17T16:33:10Z wasamasa: compile-time transformers only
2018-10-17T16:33:18Z RedNifre: No nlambdas either, huh?
2018-10-17T16:33:22Z jcowan: basically, a fexpr is responsible for evaluating its arguments or not, whereas a macro returns a single form to be evaluated in the context of the macro call, but with variables bound to their values at the point where the macro is defined.
2018-10-17T16:33:47Z wasamasa: RedNifre: read the R5RS standard, it's tiny
2018-10-17T16:34:04Z RedNifre: Sounds like a good idea, brb...
2018-10-17T16:34:08Z jcowan: No nlambdas
2018-10-17T16:34:27Z jcowan: Or read the R7RS standard, it's not that much longer and explains some things better
2018-10-17T16:35:06Z jcowan: https://bitbucket.org/cowan/r7rs-wg1-infra/src/default/RedefiningSyntax.md is an empirical report on what actually happens when you redefine macros in different Scheme implementations
2018-10-17T16:35:58Z RedNifre: huh, schemers.org seems to have a wrong cert.
2018-10-17T16:36:51Z RedNifre: or would you recommend reading chicken scheme's r5rs website?
2018-10-17T16:38:20Z wasamasa: that works as well
2018-10-17T16:40:42Z rain2: what i like about scheme macros that fexprs breaks is phase separation, you can expand all macros before starting to execute the scheme code
2018-10-17T16:40:44Z wasamasa: one thing to keep in mind is that the standard tries leaving as much to the implementor as possible, so it can be hard to state general truths about scheme
2018-10-17T16:40:58Z wasamasa: like the macro thing
2018-10-17T16:41:27Z skapata joined #scheme
2018-10-17T16:41:53Z wasamasa: there is at least one scheme where a macro is a value, like gauche
2018-10-17T16:42:15Z wasamasa: so if I try (define when 2) there, this breaks all subsequent usage of it
2018-10-17T16:48:39Z catonano quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2018-10-17T16:50:01Z f8l joined #scheme
2018-10-17T16:50:36Z ecraven: jcowan: I put a small wrapper around the r6rs procedures
2018-10-17T16:50:56Z ecraven: I'll look for an implementation of actual srfi-4, though chez has no way to extend the read syntax (I think), so actual literals won't work
2018-10-17T16:54:23Z Zipheir joined #scheme
2018-10-17T16:55:31Z ecraven: akku doesn't have srfi-4, neither do the other main srfi repos I usually look in
2018-10-17T16:56:42Z InverseRhombus quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2018-10-17T16:58:09Z RedNifre quit (Quit: kwit)
2018-10-17T17:09:57Z alezost quit (Quit: I live in GuixSD <http://www.gnu.org/s/guix> and Emacs <http://www.gnu.org/s/emacs>)
2018-10-17T17:13:28Z defanor_ left #scheme
2018-10-17T17:13:38Z defanor_ joined #scheme
2018-10-17T17:23:41Z hugh_marera joined #scheme
2018-10-17T17:24:52Z razzy quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2018-10-17T17:29:38Z edgar-rft joined #scheme
2018-10-17T17:42:06Z InverseRhombus joined #scheme
2018-10-17T17:47:56Z hugh_marera quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2018-10-17T17:56:41Z ktistes joined #scheme
2018-10-17T17:57:09Z ktistes quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2018-10-17T17:59:09Z tautologico joined #scheme
2018-10-17T17:59:43Z jcowan: yes, I'm not worrying about the SRFI 4 read syntax.  SRFI 160 describes it but makes it optional.
2018-10-17T18:18:00Z erkin joined #scheme
2018-10-17T18:24:46Z ecraven: hm.. doesn't that make it mostly useless? if you cannot rely on it being supported, you cannot actually use it
2018-10-17T18:32:31Z lritter joined #scheme
2018-10-17T18:53:45Z amz3 joined #scheme
2018-10-17T19:07:27Z ngz joined #scheme
2018-10-17T19:09:04Z catonano joined #scheme
2018-10-17T19:11:51Z ecraven: jcowan: do you think it would be possible to have an "index" at the end of srfi-160, so that all procedures are at least mentioned once there?
2018-10-17T19:18:21Z razzy joined #scheme
2018-10-17T19:28:48Z hugh_marera__ joined #scheme
2018-10-17T19:39:12Z Zenton quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2018-10-17T19:39:29Z Zenton joined #scheme
2018-10-17T19:47:15Z zachk joined #scheme
2018-10-17T19:59:56Z jcowan: ecraven: Yes, my point is that it's not really necessary to have this syntax: you can use ordinary vector syntax and do the conversion just once
2018-10-17T20:00:33Z jcowan: At the end of the R7RS process we'll go through all the proposed syntaxes and see which ones should be incorporated, that's what LexicalDocket is for
2018-10-17T20:03:06Z Ober: is there an eta on that?
2018-10-17T20:03:38Z wasamasa: let's meet again in 42 years
2018-10-17T20:04:06Z Ober: well in 42 years r9rs.org will be the end result
2018-10-17T20:04:50Z wasamasa: nono, if the six years it took for red docket to be completed are representative, it's 42 years in total
2018-10-17T20:06:37Z jcowan chuckles
2018-10-17T20:06:57Z wasamasa: I'm obviously being facetious
2018-10-17T20:07:11Z jcowan: I'm working on it.  Of course more help would make things go faster, but "the part-time help of wits is no better than the full-time help of halfwits."
2018-10-17T20:07:25Z jcowan: Red docket was three years, not six.
2018-10-17T20:07:49Z jcowan: I just rearranged things so there are now more dockets but smaller
2018-10-17T20:07:55Z wasamasa: wow, that makes 21 years!
2018-10-17T20:08:15Z razzy quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2018-10-17T20:08:34Z jcowan: In addition, I"m going to start having votes on whether not-yet-implemented pre-SRFIs should go forward to become full SRFIs or not.
2018-10-17T20:32:31Z razzy joined #scheme
2018-10-17T20:36:35Z Guest13389 quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
2018-10-17T20:39:23Z lambda-11235 joined #scheme
2018-10-17T20:39:27Z ski quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2018-10-17T20:39:48Z olopierpa joined #scheme
2018-10-17T20:49:37Z Guest13389 joined #scheme
2018-10-17T20:54:52Z lambda-11235 quit (Max SendQ exceeded)
2018-10-17T20:55:41Z lambda-11235 joined #scheme
2018-10-17T20:59:37Z ecraven: personally, I find (u32vector ...) syntax enough for *writing*, it's just nice to have something like it for showing results at the repl :-/
2018-10-17T21:14:32Z hugh_marera__ quit (Quit: hugh_marera__)
2018-10-17T21:16:19Z lambda-11235 quit (Quit: Bye)
2018-10-17T21:29:41Z daviid quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
2018-10-17T21:32:36Z jcowan: Yes, that's a good point.  If only `write` were extensible.
2018-10-17T21:33:34Z jcowan: Current set of dockets:  Red, Tangerine, Orange, Mustard, Yellow, Green, Aqua, Blue, Indigo, Lexical
2018-10-17T21:34:01Z CrazyLazyDazy joined #scheme
2018-10-17T21:45:05Z mange joined #scheme
2018-10-17T21:46:07Z catonano quit (Quit: catonano)
2018-10-17T21:50:28Z defanor_ is now known as defanor
2018-10-17T21:52:34Z smazga quit (Quit: leaving)
2018-10-17T21:52:56Z yumh quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
2018-10-17T21:54:24Z yumh joined #scheme
2018-10-17T21:57:58Z zachk quit (Changing host)
2018-10-17T21:57:58Z zachk joined #scheme
2018-10-17T22:08:17Z klovett_ joined #scheme
2018-10-17T22:09:06Z catonano joined #scheme
2018-10-17T22:09:39Z klovett quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2018-10-17T22:09:46Z ravndal quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
2018-10-17T22:12:49Z ravndal joined #scheme
2018-10-17T22:22:45Z ngz quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2018-10-17T22:28:32Z klovett_ is now known as klovett
2018-10-17T22:41:26Z daviid joined #scheme
2018-10-17T22:41:50Z daviid is now known as Guest51516
2018-10-17T22:42:06Z Guest51516 is now known as daviid
2018-10-17T22:43:08Z thinkpad` joined #scheme
2018-10-17T22:59:23Z daviid` joined #scheme
2018-10-17T23:00:57Z daviid quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
2018-10-17T23:01:55Z erkin quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2018-10-17T23:11:14Z aeth quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2018-10-17T23:11:31Z aeth joined #scheme
2018-10-17T23:12:36Z civodul quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 26.1))
2018-10-17T23:27:48Z pjb quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2018-10-17T23:33:23Z robotoad quit (Quit: robotoad)
2018-10-17T23:36:38Z Zenton quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2018-10-17T23:41:21Z pie_ quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2018-10-17T23:41:37Z pie_ joined #scheme
2018-10-17T23:41:51Z Zenton joined #scheme
2018-10-17T23:46:30Z CrazyLazyDazy quit (Quit: Leaving)
2018-10-17T23:51:56Z robotoad joined #scheme
2018-10-18T00:02:35Z pjb joined #scheme
2018-10-18T00:09:18Z zachk quit (Quit: Leaving)
2018-10-18T00:18:37Z olopierpa quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2018-10-18T00:22:15Z thinkpad` quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
2018-10-18T00:35:16Z pjb quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2018-10-18T00:35:57Z florilege quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2018-10-18T00:37:37Z florilege joined #scheme
2018-10-18T01:00:36Z lambda-11235 joined #scheme
2018-10-18T01:05:21Z pjb joined #scheme
2018-10-18T01:11:35Z jao joined #scheme
2018-10-18T01:14:40Z Ober: did someone here mention getting scheme installed in Termux?
2018-10-18T01:37:58Z pjb quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2018-10-18T01:46:21Z lritter quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2018-10-18T01:47:01Z lritter joined #scheme
2018-10-18T01:50:16Z jao quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2018-10-18T02:05:30Z pjb joined #scheme
2018-10-18T02:17:32Z sethalves joined #scheme
2018-10-18T02:17:50Z sethalves quit (Client Quit)
2018-10-18T02:38:49Z pjb quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2018-10-18T02:49:11Z linack joined #scheme
2018-10-18T02:58:22Z daviid` quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
2018-10-18T03:08:50Z pjb joined #scheme
2018-10-18T03:14:03Z linack quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2018-10-18T03:31:57Z florilege quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2018-10-18T03:35:42Z johnjay joined #scheme
2018-10-18T03:36:02Z johnjay: so i was thinking... why isn't there an emacs clone in scheme or commonlisp
2018-10-18T03:36:16Z Riastradh: There are.
2018-10-18T03:36:17Z johnjay: if elisp has less power and libraries than either of those lisps?
2018-10-18T03:36:28Z johnjay: you mean like climacs? i'm trying to figure out how to install that atm
2018-10-18T03:36:38Z Riastradh: But a lot more work goes into Emacs than into Edwin, or Climacs, or Hemlock, or any of the others.
2018-10-18T03:36:44Z Riastradh: Into GNU Emacs, I mean.
2018-10-18T03:37:19Z johnjay: work as in editing modes?
2018-10-18T03:37:38Z Ober: as in everything
2018-10-18T03:38:10Z Riastradh: As in everything.  More modes, i18n, gooey design, applications built on them like gnus, &c.
2018-10-18T03:39:02Z johnjay: gnus?
2018-10-18T03:39:34Z Riastradh: I picked an example at random.  It's a mail and news reader in GNU Emacs.
2018-10-18T03:40:03Z Ober: yeah... the reason emacs hangs. :P
2018-10-18T03:40:06Z Riastradh: A lot of people use GNU Emacs seriously; Edwin, Climacs, Hemlock, &c., are hobby projects these days.
2018-10-18T03:40:19Z Ober: very dated too
2018-10-18T03:40:33Z johnjay: i think the readme page for climacs said a bunch of stuff shouldn't be in emacs like mail reader
2018-10-18T03:40:36Z johnjay: therefore isn't implemented
2018-10-18T03:41:06Z Ober: yeah, principal is the reason for lack of features. :P
2018-10-18T03:41:15Z Riastradh: The main thing is not dynamic scope, or libraries, or whatever, but a community of people who collaborate to work on it.
2018-10-18T03:41:15Z pjb quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
2018-10-18T03:41:32Z Riastradh: GNU Emacs has that; Edwin, Climacs, Hemlock, &c., don't.
2018-10-18T03:41:32Z Ober: packages galore
2018-10-18T03:41:46Z johnjay: how many of those packages are actually used though
2018-10-18T03:42:01Z johnjay: the emacs wiki often lists like 2 or 3 different packages for a given thing
2018-10-18T03:42:06Z Ober: none,. you should go with one of those other packages.
2018-10-18T03:42:22Z Ober: hemlock should do you fine. :P
2018-10-18T03:42:24Z Riastradh: Now, if you want to work on Edwin, be my guest.  I still use it every day but I'm under no illusion that it's a vibrant living project like GNU Emacs.
2018-10-18T03:42:31Z johnjay: er, so emacs is waht people use because it's already what people use
2018-10-18T03:42:33Z johnjay: like facebook?
2018-10-18T03:43:02Z Riastradh: Facebook's value lies entirely in the communities that are built around it, sure.
2018-10-18T03:43:41Z johnjay: it's just a network effect though.
2018-10-18T03:43:45Z johnjay: in a sense facebook has no value
2018-10-18T03:43:47Z Riastradh: `just'
2018-10-18T03:44:03Z johnjay: because there's a "slot" in the economy for social networking, and facebook happens to be the company occupying that slot
2018-10-18T03:44:15Z johnjay: emacs has actual value as a program
2018-10-18T03:44:23Z Riastradh: *shrug* You can discount the value of a society if you like but personally I'm happy that the society around me keeps the sewers functional here.
2018-10-18T03:44:43Z Riastradh: Sewers have value too but only if someone's there to maintain them.
2018-10-18T03:45:02Z johnjay: it sounds like we agree then. there would be the same situation if everybody was contributing to edwin
2018-10-18T03:45:04Z johnjay: or climacs
2018-10-18T03:45:49Z johnjay: it's just emacs happens to be occupying the slot of "lisp like editor"
2018-10-18T04:12:01Z pjb joined #scheme
2018-10-18T04:17:55Z pie_ quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2018-10-18T04:22:29Z aeth: You could make a superior text editor to Emacs in a year, at least for editing Lisps (have to subset it). There's just so much technical debt in Emacs.
2018-10-18T04:22:36Z aeth: Just no one has put in the work.
2018-10-18T04:22:48Z aeth: Possibly because Emacs is good enough.
2018-10-18T04:23:52Z oni-on-ion: hmmm.
2018-10-18T04:23:54Z aeth: Of course, there's also this thing with GNU Emacs culture where lots of people want to do literally everything within Emacs. Browse the web, read mail, browse files, run their shell, read PDFs, view images, run IRC, etc.
2018-10-18T04:24:03Z johnjay: technical debt meaning, bad decisions and design limitations?
2018-10-18T04:24:11Z aeth: johnjay: http://emacshorrors.com/
2018-10-18T04:24:30Z oni-on-ion: johnjay: investment
2018-10-18T04:24:39Z aeth: Stuff you'd expect when something was hacked together with a dated design on launch and just had features piled on since then
2018-10-18T04:24:46Z oni-on-ion: like trying to 'replace' linux or posix
2018-10-18T04:25:19Z oni-on-ion: the ultimate hackers tool is also the ultimate hack eh?
2018-10-18T04:25:34Z aeth: Anyway, it's probably the Emacs do-everything-in-Emacs culture as the main reason why Emacs competitors haven't taken off. The people most capable of writing a better Emacs-style editor are the people who probably do everything I listed above in Emacs (and more) rather than just editing a Lisp-like language with it.
2018-10-18T04:26:12Z aeth: So they'd just be incapable of thinking in terms of starting small and growing it since they'd have to keep using GNU Emacs for years anyway.
2018-10-18T04:27:20Z oni-on-ion: hehe. and stuff like this is a heavy tech investment, muscle memory, familiarity, etc; https://github.com/Malabarba/speed-of-thought-lisp
2018-10-18T04:27:54Z aeth: oni-on-ion: Emacs keys are probably the easiest part of Emacs.
2018-10-18T04:27:55Z oni-on-ion: essentially physical habit. if you watch only the simpson episodes and want to make a cartoon it will likely be that
2018-10-18T04:28:12Z johnjay: hah
2018-10-18T04:28:13Z johnjay: ;; RMS says don't make these the default. ;; (April 2006): RMS has now approved these commands as defaults.
2018-10-18T04:28:23Z oni-on-ion: aeth: keys? talking about cognitive habit. packages like that refining shortcuts on shortcuts
2018-10-18T04:28:43Z aeth: Key bindings are easier than you think
2018-10-18T04:28:58Z aeth: The hard part is e.g. cloning magit or ERC
2018-10-18T04:28:59Z oni-on-ion: ok im not talking about key bindings.
2018-10-18T04:29:28Z johnjay: aeth: are you saying that the do-everything idea is bad?
2018-10-18T04:29:45Z Zipheir: Oh yeah.
2018-10-18T04:29:47Z johnjay: or that you would have to compromise and do a lot of things, but not *everything*?
2018-10-18T04:29:49Z oni-on-ion: something much more vast and profound, habituation of eyeballs, mental activity and processes, and so on. its a language like any software and people are most comfortable in their own home..
2018-10-18T04:30:15Z oni-on-ion: but thats what an Operating System would be no? or web browser. or amazon or google or
2018-10-18T04:31:08Z Zipheir: If your goal is to clone a text editor, that is doable. Cloning an OS disguised as a text editor, less doable, most people won't bother switching.
2018-10-18T04:31:46Z johnjay: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Technical_debt
2018-10-18T04:32:04Z oni-on-ion: for example. emacs has its own way of buffers and frames and windows. it felt discordian for a few years where it was like running a world within a world. so, i use emacs as my window manager now, with exwm. this has big advantages because i work mainly with text and everything can reference all other stuff. dont have to go through file systems and different apps and conventions.
2018-10-18T04:32:16Z johnjay: Zipheir: yeah that recalls what the description of climacs said. I don't have it do XYZ because that's something the OS should do or a separate program should do
2018-10-18T04:33:03Z oni-on-ion: but wanting something *different* requires it to be inside of its own world from the OS, otherwise its Just Another Editor regardless
2018-10-18T04:33:38Z oni-on-ion: aka glorified "text fields"
2018-10-18T04:34:34Z Zipheir: Also, Emacs 'does everything' because people have been hacking elisp for almost 40 years. It's impossible to duplicate that work quickly with a small group of people.
2018-10-18T04:34:37Z johnjay: what if you made a text editor but added a few key things like ERC or something
2018-10-18T04:34:51Z johnjay: right. but it sounds like that wouldn't be desirable anyhow because of modularity
2018-10-18T04:35:59Z Zipheir: What's good is that, since all that elisp is optional, you can still write (in theory) an elegant editor and ship the modes you like.
2018-10-18T04:36:02Z Zipheir: Emacs is very modular.
2018-10-18T04:36:15Z oni-on-ion: see: squeak smalltalk, self, even erlang or prolog or web browser itself. emacs has symptoms of mixing up so many different things, into one place which we use the keyboard to interface. most of what we do is work with text, letters, strings.
2018-10-18T04:37:00Z Zipheir: johnjay: Point being, yes, an editor that does everything is bad. An editor that could be extended to do what you want is good.
2018-10-18T04:37:55Z oni-on-ion: the default skin is what makes emacs emacs. its just a lisp vm eh? theres doom emacs, spacemacs, can customize the whole thing. to me it is like a super-shell.
2018-10-18T04:38:37Z oni-on-ion: i dont see how someone couldnt ship an app thats powered by emacs
2018-10-18T04:39:22Z johnjay: oni-on-ion: that speed of thought page was really weird
2018-10-18T04:40:04Z oni-on-ion: how come ?
2018-10-18T04:44:39Z Zipheir: oni-on-ion: Speaking of a super-shell... that's what scsh was supposed to be, or at least the beginning of one.
2018-10-18T04:45:20Z pjb quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2018-10-18T04:46:14Z oni-on-ion: ive recently heard great things about scsh =) from guile manual
2018-10-18T04:48:35Z Zipheir: It's sort of maintained https://github.com/scheme/scsh, it's not really going anywhere, though.
2018-10-18T04:49:06Z johnjay: dumb question but why would you want to type parentheses in a command shell
2018-10-18T04:49:20Z johnjay: unless you have shortcuts for jumping up down and across () expressions
2018-10-18T04:50:02Z oni-on-ion: idk. i use eshell, part of emacs. its wonderful, no need for parens, and one can pipe shell commands with emacs buffers and with elisp functions. very useful. https://www.masteringemacs.org/article/complete-guide-mastering-eshell
2018-10-18T04:50:45Z oni-on-ion: johnjay: have you seen paredit though? there are a few packages like this for editing code without having to deal with ()'s explicitly. http://danmidwood.com/content/2014/11/21/animated-paredit.html
2018-10-18T04:51:27Z Zipheir: johnjay: scsh isn't intended for interactive use. At one point there was an interactive mode available that allowed paren-less use.
2018-10-18T04:52:32Z TheGreekOwl quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
2018-10-18T04:52:50Z Zipheir: johnjay: As Shivers notes in his paper, one of the reasons sh is so weird is its need to be both a programming language and a CLI.
2018-10-18T04:54:05Z johnjay: "A nice feature of these functions is that they are delimiter agnostic, that means that you don't need to match the correct closing character of the pair with the opening character, any will do."
2018-10-18T04:54:12Z johnjay: eh what does that mean? you can have (} and [) ?
2018-10-18T04:55:05Z johnjay: Shiver's paper? sorry I must have missed that
2018-10-18T04:57:28Z Zipheir: Ah, finally found it.
2018-10-18T04:57:31Z Zipheir: http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/download?doi=10.1.1.55.5166&rep=rep1&type=pdf
2018-10-18T04:57:41Z Zipheir: Excellent paper, and hilarious as usual.
2018-10-18T05:00:14Z johnjay: slurping and barfing - well you learn new terms every day
2018-10-18T05:01:30Z lritter quit (Quit: Leaving)
2018-10-18T05:05:53Z oni-on-ion: got to ask oneself. why are there always more closing parens bunched up than starting parens? because lisp is asymmetrical, lopsided, tending toward or away from itself. which can be leveraged i think, in designing an editor.
2018-10-18T05:06:01Z oni-on-ion: or a manner of edition as it were
2018-10-18T05:07:35Z johnjay: oni-on-ion: i just ask that the indentation be consistent and easy to use.
2018-10-18T05:08:21Z oni-on-ion: oh. is indentation important?
2018-10-18T05:10:11Z johnjay: like, so i can tell what the clauses of an if statement are
2018-10-18T05:10:22Z johnjay: or the variables of a let statement vs its body
2018-10-18T05:10:33Z oni-on-ion: one clause per if? do you mean case?
2018-10-18T05:11:26Z oni-on-ion: also i have a feeling thats why clojure and others chose [] for that: (let [x 1 y 2] <body>)
2018-10-18T05:14:35Z Zipheir: Silly indent question: how do people prefer to indent their if clauses? Align the consequent & alternative under the test, indent two space, or other?
2018-10-18T05:14:52Z pjb joined #scheme
2018-10-18T05:15:45Z johnjay: Zipheir: i don't know. but whatever it does it should be consistent
2018-10-18T05:18:05Z aeth: johnjay: Exactly what Zipheir said. You can make an Emacs clone, but it won't do anything that Emacs power users use Emacs for.
2018-10-18T05:18:32Z johnjay: that makes some sense
2018-10-18T05:18:42Z johnjay: esp since emacs has turned into a do-everything kind of thing
2018-10-18T05:19:02Z aeth: It's a project more comparable with KDE than with a text editor.
2018-10-18T05:19:33Z Zipheir: aeth: Just so.
2018-10-18T05:40:11Z lambda-11235 quit (Quit: Bye)
2018-10-18T05:47:42Z pjb quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2018-10-18T06:10:57Z ismay joined #scheme
2018-10-18T06:11:50Z DGASAU quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2018-10-18T06:12:55Z DGASAU joined #scheme
2018-10-18T06:20:07Z pjb joined #scheme
2018-10-18T06:32:45Z robotoad quit (Quit: robotoad)
2018-10-18T06:45:22Z pjb quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2018-10-18T06:59:43Z wasamasa: johnjay: I see, you're still talking about emacs alternatives instead of actually using and contributing to them
2018-10-18T06:59:43Z wasamasa: johnjay: I hope you'll get there eventually :>
2018-10-18T07:15:03Z jcowan quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity)
2018-10-18T07:21:02Z razzy: i miss something at emacs :]. it is unpredictable when handling really big loads :]
2018-10-18T07:26:57Z xvx quit (Quit: xvx)
2018-10-18T07:33:14Z skapata quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2018-10-18T07:34:00Z aeth quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2018-10-18T07:35:06Z aeth joined #scheme
2018-10-18T07:36:32Z Muir joined #scheme
2018-10-18T07:38:54Z Muir quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2018-10-18T07:46:35Z klovett quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
2018-10-18T07:47:49Z klovett joined #scheme
2018-10-18T07:48:55Z thevishy joined #scheme
2018-10-18T07:50:52Z Ober: gc baby
2018-10-18T07:57:15Z mange quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2018-10-18T08:21:57Z daviid joined #scheme
2018-10-18T08:48:09Z xvx joined #scheme
2018-10-18T08:49:47Z ggole joined #scheme
2018-10-18T09:10:53Z ioa: Zipheir, why is scsh not going anywhere? I am not familiar with it, just sounds like a brilliant idea. (Just started reading the paper)
2018-10-18T09:17:52Z florilege joined #scheme
2018-10-18T09:22:00Z thinkpad` joined #scheme
2018-10-18T09:22:07Z thinkpad` left #scheme
2018-10-18T09:22:31Z amerigo joined #scheme
2018-10-18T09:47:22Z amerigo left #scheme
2018-10-18T09:48:25Z amerigo joined #scheme
2018-10-18T09:48:58Z amerigo: noob question
2018-10-18T09:49:00Z amerigo: https://pastebin.com/ZZP6gb6W
2018-10-18T09:49:11Z amerigo: I understand that the first code will be slower
2018-10-18T09:49:17Z amerigo: but why is it that much slower?
2018-10-18T09:50:47Z amerigo: is there a more efficient way to implement multiprocessing/green threads?
2018-10-18T10:23:23Z amerigo quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2018-10-18T10:24:29Z amerigo joined #scheme
2018-10-18T10:31:18Z thevishy quit (Quit: thevishy)
2018-10-18T10:54:10Z DGASAU quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2018-10-18T10:54:53Z DGASAU joined #scheme
2018-10-18T11:01:41Z jcowan joined #scheme
2018-10-18T11:14:42Z Zenton quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2018-10-18T11:14:56Z Zenton joined #scheme
2018-10-18T11:24:31Z edgar-rft quit (Quit: Leaving)
2018-10-18T11:26:41Z jao joined #scheme
2018-10-18T11:26:54Z siraben: amerigo: Where does this code come from?
2018-10-18T11:27:31Z siraben: The first code is much slower because you're needlessly recomputing values for fibonacci.
2018-10-18T11:28:38Z amerigo quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2018-10-18T11:28:50Z siraben: Oh well.
2018-10-18T11:33:32Z ioa: hehe, impatient one. Well, I'm still here and I my bouncer will tell me if Zipheir wants to expand on scsh :>
2018-10-18T11:47:24Z siraben: Finally connecting through Matrix has helped. Some channels (like this one) can be quiet for hours if not days.
2018-10-18T11:47:30Z florilege quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2018-10-18T11:48:05Z siraben: I'm intrigued to know what `make-engine' does in that code though.
2018-10-18T11:49:12Z siraben: <freenode_Obe "did someone here mention getting"> Ober: Re: who asked for Scheme on Termux that would be me
2018-10-18T11:50:15Z DGASAU quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2018-10-18T11:51:11Z siraben: Zipheir: #coq has been pretty helpful and I'm beginning to understand Coq
2018-10-18T11:52:10Z siraben: It's really intimidating for beginners. There should be a more accessible intro to it than the existing material which seems to be targeted towards graduate students.
2018-10-18T11:54:42Z catonano quit (Quit: catonano)
2018-10-18T11:55:27Z ioa: siraben: do you mean the theorem prover coq?
2018-10-18T11:56:09Z siraben: Yes
2018-10-18T11:56:16Z siraben: Have you used it?
2018-10-18T11:56:42Z ioa: yes but some time ago. I am more familiar with isabelle. how does coq connect to scheme?
2018-10-18T11:57:01Z siraben: Hah
2018-10-18T11:57:14Z siraben: Oh you mean connect has in related to
2018-10-18T11:57:21Z ioa: sorry, yes
2018-10-18T11:57:25Z siraben: I read connect as in interoperates with sorry
2018-10-18T11:58:45Z ioa: coq is intimidating indeed. Isabelle is much more user friendly in my experience
2018-10-18T11:59:23Z ioa: both ML programs though.
2018-10-18T12:00:45Z siraben: Well we were discussing The Little Prover
2018-10-18T12:01:18Z siraben: Does Isabelle allow the programmer to see what options are available next?
2018-10-18T12:01:19Z ventonegro: siraben: Have you seen Software Foundations?
2018-10-18T12:01:31Z siraben: Discoverability has been an issue in Cow
2018-10-18T12:01:31Z siraben: Coq
2018-10-18T12:01:32Z siraben: I've heard of it
2018-10-18T12:01:35Z ventonegro: siraben: https://softwarefoundations.cis.upenn.edu/
2018-10-18T12:01:48Z siraben: Would like it in PDF form though
2018-10-18T12:02:10Z ventonegro: siraben: Nah, it's actually all Coq
2018-10-18T12:02:18Z ventonegro: Literate programming
2018-10-18T12:02:31Z ventonegro: Just download the source code
2018-10-18T12:02:51Z ioa: I'm not sure I understand what you mean by "options available next".
2018-10-18T12:03:09Z ioa: I haven't read the little prover
2018-10-18T12:04:07Z ioa: Isabelle has "Sledgehammer" which can bridge large gaps in proofs.
2018-10-18T12:04:50Z ioa: (by making proof suggestions)
2018-10-18T12:10:16Z ineiros quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2018-10-18T12:10:31Z ineiros joined #scheme
2018-10-18T12:14:29Z DGASAU joined #scheme
2018-10-18T12:22:54Z siraben: That could help
2018-10-18T12:23:05Z siraben: So what resources are there for Isabelle?
2018-10-18T12:28:54Z ioa: I have found the docmentation is well written. There are many manuals and tutorials are their homepage: https://isabelle.in.tum.de/documentation.html But I don't know if how far they have theory libraries for correctness of programs.
2018-10-18T12:30:02Z ioa: I see J-Bob from little prover has ACL2 and Scheme resources
2018-10-18T12:34:27Z amerigo joined #scheme
2018-10-18T12:34:42Z amerigo: siraben: code comes from tspl by dybvig
2018-10-18T12:35:08Z siraben: Currently I'm just doing some set theory proofs, nothing too hard.
2018-10-18T12:35:15Z siraben: Does Isabelle work with Emacs?
2018-10-18T12:35:20Z siraben: Oh it should, with Proof General
2018-10-18T12:35:32Z siraben: Found out about it and it was great, replaced CoqIDE in a heartbeat.
2018-10-18T12:36:14Z amerigo: the second code uses the same algorithms for fibonacci
2018-10-18T12:36:35Z amerigo: i deliberatly choose it to be slow, to see the time difference better
2018-10-18T12:38:35Z amerigo: https://www.scheme.com/tspl4/examples.html#./examples:s82
2018-10-18T12:38:44Z amerigo: scroll down for the definition of make-engine
2018-10-18T12:38:51Z ioa: siraben: set theory! :) Isabelle can do Cantor's theorem "by auto" hehe. But I think it doesn't work with Emacs anymore, unfortunately. The standard Isabelle IDE is jEdit. :(
2018-10-18T12:39:21Z ioa: Standard set theory or fancy stuff without choice? :)
2018-10-18T12:39:36Z siraben: Can I see its generated proofs?
2018-10-18T12:39:54Z ioa: i think not.
2018-10-18T12:40:03Z siraben: Pretty standard. It's SUPER basic, like ZFC axioms (although strangely we don't cover it)
2018-10-18T12:41:05Z siraben: In class we proved that A is a subset of B, iff A intersect B = A
2018-10-18T12:41:27Z ioa: I'm not sure if Isabelle still supports proof general
2018-10-18T12:41:31Z siraben: But I wasn't happy with the informal nature of it, hence Coq
2018-10-18T12:42:07Z ioa: :) yes, for being logic, introduction to set theory can get annoyingly informal
2018-10-18T12:44:00Z quipa joined #scheme
2018-10-18T12:45:20Z ioa: I guess this proof is in most cases almost "by definition"
2018-10-18T12:45:29Z florilege joined #scheme
2018-10-18T12:46:24Z siraben: Is there a "teach proof assistants through set theory" kind of material?
2018-10-18T12:46:49Z siraben: O.o Gödel Escher Bach but its Peano arithmetic proofs formalized.
2018-10-18T12:48:28Z ioa: I worked on something like these some time ago, but the project didn't go far. See: https://github.com/ioannad/NBG_HOL
2018-10-18T12:49:40Z ioa: sorry misread your sentence. this is more like teach set theory through proof assistants
2018-10-18T12:53:16Z siraben: I suppose that works, too.
2018-10-18T12:57:54Z siraben: Zipheir:  A  while back we discussed flashing calculators, this seems to work for Linux http://lpg.ticalc.org/prj_tilp/index.html
2018-10-18T12:58:06Z jao quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2018-10-18T13:00:56Z jao joined #scheme
2018-10-18T13:15:40Z catonano joined #scheme
2018-10-18T13:21:17Z quipa quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2018-10-18T13:28:58Z lockywolf joined #scheme
2018-10-18T13:30:27Z quipa joined #scheme
2018-10-18T13:30:49Z quipa quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2018-10-18T13:31:17Z quipa joined #scheme
2018-10-18T13:42:07Z pie_ joined #scheme
2018-10-18T13:48:36Z dtornabene joined #scheme
2018-10-18T13:57:21Z TheGreekOwl joined #scheme
2018-10-18T14:04:23Z lockywolf quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
2018-10-18T14:05:46Z ismay quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2018-10-18T14:15:33Z quipa quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2018-10-18T14:26:40Z alexp joined #scheme
2018-10-18T14:27:08Z alexp quit (Client Quit)
2018-10-18T14:34:18Z ski joined #scheme
2018-10-18T14:40:16Z robotoad joined #scheme
2018-10-18T14:47:24Z robotoad quit (Quit: robotoad)
2018-10-18T14:57:22Z alezost joined #scheme
2018-10-18T15:01:04Z catonano quit (Quit: catonano)
2018-10-18T15:01:29Z catonano joined #scheme
2018-10-18T15:04:46Z xvx quit (Quit: xvx)
2018-10-18T15:09:03Z catonano quit (Quit: catonano)
2018-10-18T15:09:45Z catonano joined #scheme
2018-10-18T15:20:01Z jcowan: I just got a look at a physical copy of TLT
2018-10-18T15:20:15Z jcowan: one thing it is not, is little!  Huge book, especially by Little X standards.
2018-10-18T15:21:05Z siraben: Jealous!
2018-10-18T15:35:52Z robotoad joined #scheme
2018-10-18T15:36:28Z smazga joined #scheme
2018-10-18T15:43:12Z skapata joined #scheme
2018-10-18T15:45:38Z robotoad quit (Quit: robotoad)
2018-10-18T15:49:26Z gwatt: Yeah, it's a decently big book
2018-10-18T15:57:21Z dsp quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2018-10-18T15:57:34Z dsp joined #scheme
2018-10-18T16:00:06Z m1dnight_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2018-10-18T16:01:01Z robotoad joined #scheme
2018-10-18T16:13:20Z johnjay: wasamasa: apparently the discussion just concluded there's little point in making an alternative to emacs
2018-10-18T16:14:40Z pjb joined #scheme
2018-10-18T16:14:53Z m1dnight_ joined #scheme
2018-10-18T16:15:34Z johnjay: aren't coq and isabelle proof assistants though
2018-10-18T16:15:46Z johnjay: like they generate a proof instead of verifying it for you?
2018-10-18T16:17:47Z ski: they assist you in your proof-writing, verifying the steps you make (and to some extent automate simpler steps)
2018-10-18T16:18:36Z amerigo quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
2018-10-18T16:21:14Z siraben: Proof checker != Proof generator
2018-10-18T16:21:32Z siraben: It will literally only check everything you do, unless the step is trivial anyway.
2018-10-18T16:21:50Z siraben: In which case it can complete the proof for you, but only at some points
2018-10-18T16:22:20Z siraben likes to abuse auto. trivial. firstorder.
2018-10-18T16:24:06Z wasamasa: johnjay: just because most people believe that doesn't mean you should
2018-10-18T16:24:15Z wasamasa: johnjay: and in fact, many alternatives do exist
2018-10-18T16:24:34Z wasamasa: johnjay: I'm merely advocating for more experimentation, hacking and experiences shared online
2018-10-18T16:24:45Z johnjay: i agree with that
2018-10-18T16:25:19Z wasamasa: better than more blathering, pointless discussions and trodding along the well-worn path
2018-10-18T16:25:27Z johnjay: siraben: i haven't used coq, but my impression was it didn't even show you the proof, just reported a proof was found
2018-10-18T16:25:43Z erkin joined #scheme
2018-10-18T16:25:46Z razzy: johnjay: wasamasa whole emacs and most really used modules should be rewritten to get rid of historical, technical debt. maybe the time could be in another 20 years, i dont know
2018-10-18T16:25:48Z siraben: johnjay:  Hm?  You have to write the proof, step by step.
2018-10-18T16:26:02Z ski: (iirc, you can extract a low-level proof object)
2018-10-18T16:26:25Z johnjay: siraben: ok. the webpage i was reading was in french and it had lines like "apply theorem XYZ, pop stack, do action"
2018-10-18T16:26:34Z johnjay: i.e. it read more like a script than a proof
2018-10-18T16:26:48Z wasamasa: razzy: please do, show what you've learned
2018-10-18T16:27:03Z siraben: johnjay:  Here's what I'm working on
2018-10-18T16:27:04Z siraben: http://paste.debian.net/plain/1047938
2018-10-18T16:27:10Z siraben: Just proving some set theory stuff
2018-10-18T16:27:21Z wasamasa: razzy: have http://laputan.org/mud/ as studying material
2018-10-18T16:27:27Z siraben: You write the theorem you want to prove:
2018-10-18T16:27:36Z siraben: forall x y: set, subset x y /\ subset y x → x = y.
2018-10-18T16:27:43Z siraben: Followed by the proof.
2018-10-18T16:27:57Z johnjay: wasamasa: contributing is one thing. i was thinking of some magical "implement all of emacs into scheme and then people will switch"
2018-10-18T16:28:04Z johnjay: which is probably not true
2018-10-18T16:28:17Z siraben: Then you can step through the proof with Coq and it will check it for you, if it's not right, it won't "execute" the rest of the program.
2018-10-18T16:28:18Z razzy: is there wishlist what most users want from emacs?
2018-10-18T16:28:25Z wasamasa: johnjay: it's known as no silver bullet
2018-10-18T16:28:46Z siraben: razzy:  People's needs are usually always satisfied.
2018-10-18T16:28:51Z siraben: Emacs is extensible.
2018-10-18T16:29:15Z johnjay: siraben: yeah that's what i remember. those aren't full proofs, just what i said
2018-10-18T16:29:31Z johnjay: how is "  unfold subset in *.   apply equality.   split.   apply H."  a proof of anything?
2018-10-18T16:29:40Z siraben: It is.
2018-10-18T16:29:45Z siraben: You have to step through it in the IDE
2018-10-18T16:29:53Z siraben: I'll take some screenshots and you'll see.
2018-10-18T16:30:01Z johnjay: so the IDE shows you the proof steps?
2018-10-18T16:30:47Z ski: siraben : s/sym_subset_implies_equality/subset_is_antisymmetric/
2018-10-18T16:31:02Z siraben: johnjay: https://imgur.com/67fd1367-7c7e-3d42-b952-4567de3cec58
2018-10-18T16:31:08Z siraben: On the left is the program
2018-10-18T16:31:09Z siraben: On the top right is the things you want to prove
2018-10-18T16:31:21Z siraben: ski:  Thanks for that.  I'll rename.
2018-10-18T16:31:57Z siraben: The things above the line are your hypothesis, things you assume are true
2018-10-18T16:32:06Z ski: i suppose `inclusion_is_antisymmetric' is the same. presumably practice with more or less automation
2018-10-18T16:32:09Z siraben: The thing below the line is the statement you want to prove.
2018-10-18T16:32:13Z johnjay: siraben: the imgur didn't load
2018-10-18T16:32:26Z siraben: https://imgur.com/a/cbZlKv6
2018-10-18T16:33:30Z siraben: We use these proof assistants for _mechanical verification_, basically a proof so mechanical it is a program.
2018-10-18T16:33:38Z siraben: See: Curry-Howard correspondence.
2018-10-18T16:34:22Z siraben: ^coincidentally, that means when you perform type checking that is a form of "theorem proving"
2018-10-18T16:34:41Z siraben: Does that make it clearer?
2018-10-18T16:35:13Z siraben: (as you may tell these proofs are probably not optimal, I'm still new to this)
2018-10-18T16:35:33Z siraben: s/probably/clearly
2018-10-18T16:36:37Z johnjay: siraben: ok so H and H0 are saying anything in x is in y, and the reverse
2018-10-18T16:36:59Z johnjay: but there's no names or proof steps or anything
2018-10-18T16:37:21Z johnjay: shouldn't there be a line about the definition of equality?
2018-10-18T16:38:04Z siraben: I can manipulate these hypotheses with commands like "destruct"
2018-10-18T16:38:09Z siraben: so if H : a /\ b
2018-10-18T16:38:23Z siraben: destruct H. makes it become H : a, H0 : b
2018-10-18T16:38:34Z dsp quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2018-10-18T16:38:39Z siraben: Just like in logic, if you're familiar with logic proofs.
2018-10-18T16:38:47Z dsp joined #scheme
2018-10-18T16:38:54Z siraben: For programmers this means that you can _prove properties_ about programs
2018-10-18T16:39:20Z siraben: For instance, that forall  l : list . (reverse (reverse l)) = l
2018-10-18T16:39:57Z johnjay: well in a full set theory proof you would cite each line as a theorem
2018-10-18T16:39:58Z dsp quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2018-10-18T16:40:14Z johnjay: i.e. you'd cite a theorem (a /\ b ) -> a and then (a /\ b ) -> b
2018-10-18T16:40:27Z siraben: Ah, so you're wondering about the proof as it is in mathematics.
2018-10-18T16:40:28Z johnjay: destruct H is just a command
2018-10-18T16:40:58Z siraben: No, it's an action on hypothesis that has a precise, logical definition.
2018-10-18T16:41:00Z siraben: a b
2018-10-18T16:41:12Z siraben: a /\ b -> a, b
2018-10-18T16:41:18Z ski: at some point, you get down to primitive proof steps, which can't be analyzed further
2018-10-18T16:41:21Z johnjay: is there a way in isabella to produce proofs in the "math way"?
2018-10-18T16:42:10Z siraben: ski:  Can we export Coq/Isabelle proofs?
2018-10-18T16:42:10Z ski isn't sure what the "math way" would be, except being informal proofs, iow not what formal theorem proving is doing
2018-10-18T16:42:38Z siraben: Right.  "Math way" means "informal" in this case.
2018-10-18T16:43:02Z siraben: Mathematicians are very informal about proofs, this process forces you to be so dumb it can be checked mechanically
2018-10-18T16:43:41Z siraben: ski:  You use Isabelle, how is that going?
2018-10-18T16:43:50Z dsp joined #scheme
2018-10-18T16:43:50Z ski idly wonders whether johnjay is any familiar with natural deduction, sequent calculus, or even (the horror) Hilbert systems, for formal proving
2018-10-18T16:44:24Z siraben: All of which Coq is built upon.
2018-10-18T16:44:32Z siraben: Well, and the calculus of constructions.
2018-10-18T16:44:42Z johnjay wonders if ski is trolling or not
2018-10-18T16:44:48Z johnjay: siraben: e.g. something like this: https://proofwiki.org/wiki/Equivalence_of_Definitions_of_Set_Equality
2018-10-18T16:44:54Z dtornabene quit (Quit: Leaving)
2018-10-18T16:45:32Z siraben: How informal
2018-10-18T16:45:48Z siraben: All I see is LaTeX equations, how do I know it's right?
2018-10-18T16:45:57Z siraben: This is a simple example, but what if I have a really long proof?
2018-10-18T16:46:03Z ski: johnjay : honest question
2018-10-18T16:46:35Z johnjay: siraben: i don't understand what long proofs have to do with anything
2018-10-18T16:46:51Z siraben wonders if Proof Wiki should mechanically verify all their proofs
2018-10-18T16:46:58Z siraben: johnjay:  the real world has a lot of long proofs.
2018-10-18T16:47:12Z johnjay: that's not what i'm asking
2018-10-18T16:47:24Z siraben: Check the proof of the weak goldbach conjecture, it's 80 or so pages of what you might consider "math way".
2018-10-18T16:47:29Z johnjay: i'm asking, can coq produce proofs with the theorems named and line numbers cited on each line?
2018-10-18T16:47:53Z siraben: No.
2018-10-18T16:47:55Z siraben: Because it doesn't need to.
2018-10-18T16:47:57Z johnjay: when i said math way i didn't mean informal
2018-10-18T16:48:06Z johnjay: i mean formal proofs but showing each step
2018-10-18T16:48:13Z ski: johnjay : it seemed you were confused about the absence of reference to theorems of e.g. `(a /\ b) -> a', which suggested to me that perhaps you're not that familiar with any of the most popular styles of presenting a logic. perhaps that presumption of mine was wrong, though
2018-10-18T16:48:15Z siraben: The thing is that it's supposed to complement existing proofs.
2018-10-18T16:48:36Z siraben: You write formal proofs in your papers, and also include a Coq/Isabelle file so that others can check it.
2018-10-18T16:48:37Z johnjay: ski: i don't know why you would think that, or that it suggested that
2018-10-18T16:48:44Z johnjay: i'm familiar with hilbert style systems which is my reference point
2018-10-18T16:48:49Z ski: ok, ty
2018-10-18T16:49:05Z siraben: Ok.
2018-10-18T16:49:06Z johnjay: well, but why
2018-10-18T16:49:14Z johnjay: if you can't see the formal individual steps?
2018-10-18T16:49:34Z ski: <ski> (iirc, you can extract a low-level proof object)
2018-10-18T16:49:42Z johnjay: i would expect a full machine checkable formal proof accompanying the informal one to mention theorems like "a /\ b -> a"
2018-10-18T16:49:57Z johnjay: or at least allow me to see them if i wish to
2018-10-18T16:50:31Z ski: they might not be named. but i think what you're asking for is possible
2018-10-18T16:50:55Z ski: (#coq probably would know how)
2018-10-18T16:50:59Z johnjay: right
2018-10-18T16:51:06Z johnjay: i mean, i'm trying to be objective here
2018-10-18T16:51:06Z Duns_Scrotus: can coq pretty rpint proof terms
2018-10-18T16:51:17Z johnjay: but if you went to any normal mathematician and told them "apply H" was a proof I don't think that would impress them
2018-10-18T16:51:19Z Duns_Scrotus: like, full terms in the calculus
2018-10-18T16:52:16Z ski: to communicate, you have to learn the language. as always
2018-10-18T16:52:54Z johnjay: i hope you don't work in any kind of sales ski
2018-10-18T16:52:54Z dsp quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2018-10-18T16:53:09Z dsp joined #scheme
2018-10-18T16:53:17Z ski: heh
2018-10-18T16:53:18Z johnjay: i've brought up formal checkability with mathematicians before because i'm interested in it
2018-10-18T16:53:35Z johnjay: and i can tell you saying things like that dismissively isn't really persuasive
2018-10-18T16:53:38Z dsp quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2018-10-18T16:53:47Z Duns_Scrotus: this is a functional programming channele that's just the way people are here
2018-10-18T16:54:41Z johnjay: siraben: can you show the "low level" proof object for that set equality one?
2018-10-18T16:56:04Z siraben: johnjay: I'll do it tomorrow. It's late.
2018-10-18T16:56:28Z siraben: Perhaps ski can illuminate
2018-10-18T16:57:28Z johnjay: can you recommend a good intro to using coq?
2018-10-18T16:57:43Z johnjay: i assume it's written in not in scheme based on the wiki page which says ocaml
2018-10-18T16:58:13Z dsp joined #scheme
2018-10-18T16:59:29Z alezost quit (Quit: I live in GuixSD <http://www.gnu.org/s/guix> and Emacs <http://www.gnu.org/s/emacs>)
2018-10-18T17:11:36Z hugh_marera joined #scheme
2018-10-18T17:26:36Z catonano quit (Quit: catonano)
2018-10-18T17:28:11Z ggole quit (Quit: ggole)
2018-10-18T17:35:46Z lloda quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2018-10-18T17:36:52Z razzy: wasamasa: what a awesome book :D all the bad ways i could think of
2018-10-18T17:37:25Z lloda joined #scheme
2018-10-18T17:42:19Z catonano joined #scheme
2018-10-18T17:47:48Z pie_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2018-10-18T17:47:48Z pie__ joined #scheme
2018-10-18T17:48:49Z johnjay: by the way wasamasa do you actually use edwin?
2018-10-18T17:49:16Z johnjay: just to clarify
2018-10-18T17:53:43Z razzy is interested too :]
2018-10-18T17:54:10Z quipa joined #scheme
2018-10-18T18:03:53Z deuill: Perhaps offtopic ATM, but sad to see the wiki go down! Scheme as a project deserves a good landing page, especially as CL got a new one recently. What's the status of scheme-lang.com vs. schemers.org?
2018-10-18T18:15:39Z Zipheir: No idea what happened to schemers.org.
2018-10-18T18:17:43Z Zipheir: deuill: Is https://lisp-lang.org/ the CL landing page you were referring to?
2018-10-18T18:19:16Z johnjay: what's a landing page?
2018-10-18T18:19:22Z johnjay: as in, when you google common lisp you get that?
2018-10-18T18:20:11Z deuill: https://common-lisp.net
2018-10-18T18:20:55Z deuill: They announced it about a week ago, it was on Hacker News etc. Not a world-changing event, but it's something
2018-10-18T18:22:34Z deuill: Though lisp-lang.org is also pretty good-looking
2018-10-18T18:26:11Z Zipheir: johnjay: I believe a landing page is where suckers to go rather than Wikipedia to learn about something.
2018-10-18T18:26:18Z Zipheir: s/ to//
2018-10-18T18:26:37Z deuill: To me, Go has had a very good landing page since before 1.0: an interactive tour, a section for documentation (including specifications), a blog/news feed, and download page. Don't need much else. Granted Go is more cohesive, in that Scheme implementations are more diverse.
2018-10-18T18:27:38Z deuill: The interactive tour specifically, as well as a online "playground" for running and sharing code, have been indispensable
2018-10-18T18:28:07Z Zipheir: Go's Web REPL was definitely a good idea.
2018-10-18T18:28:56Z deuill: Can be done with Biwa
2018-10-18T18:29:04Z johnjay: What is go's online repl?
2018-10-18T18:29:08Z Ober: deuill: it's the greatest update to CL the world has seen.
2018-10-18T18:29:10Z johnjay: is it similar to IDEONE and such?
2018-10-18T18:29:24Z Zipheir: johnjay: https://play.golang.org/
2018-10-18T18:29:43Z johnjay: oh yeah that's nice
2018-10-18T18:29:47Z johnjay: yeah scheme should have that
2018-10-18T18:29:54Z Ober: at least that site has a dense information level.
2018-10-18T18:29:57Z amz3: deuill: biwascheme error reporting is not very good, is it?
2018-10-18T18:30:50Z amz3: johnjay: landing page is the equivalent of click-bait title but for a full page..
2018-10-18T18:31:23Z Zipheir: "A C-like language would run a REPL, and a Lisp dare not? We'll never hear the end of it!"
2018-10-18T18:34:18Z amz3: Go is not using tail calls.. afaik
2018-10-18T18:34:57Z zachk joined #scheme
2018-10-18T18:36:10Z Zipheir: amz3: Good question. AFAIK they've never mentioned it. I guess it would have some of the same problems as C/other languages with pointer when it comes to tail calls.
2018-10-18T18:42:25Z Zipheir: amz3: Apparently they do TCO 'in some cases', which is pretty useless.
2018-10-18T18:43:06Z Zipheir: As the Haskellers say, Go is a language built on the theory that no programming language research of any value has happened in the last 40 years.
2018-10-18T18:43:23Z LeoNerd: Hah ;)
2018-10-18T18:44:09Z gnomon: You know, I know that's a joke, but I have a couple of thoughts about it.
2018-10-18T18:44:29Z johnjay: programming language research has been happening? wait what?
2018-10-18T18:46:01Z gnomon: Obviously there's some truth to it or it wouldn't be funny, but I think it also misses an important point: Go's design is less a rejection of PL research and more an experiment to test whether or not PL research factors outweigh cultural factors in the user community gathered around a particular language.
2018-10-18T18:46:05Z gnomon: Every time the Go team can make a decision that prioritizes making it easier to enter the Go community over serving the needs of the experts already in that community, they'll choose the first one, almost every single time.
2018-10-18T18:46:37Z gnomon: Whether or not that's a good pattern is a really, really interesting idea to ponder, but whether it's by accident or design is, I think, a question settled on the latter.
2018-10-18T18:47:55Z qu1j0t3: gnomon: hmmmmm...... not sure that's the whole story either.
2018-10-18T18:48:18Z qu1j0t3: gnomon: though i agree one could look at it as an experiment.
2018-10-18T18:49:11Z Zipheir: gnomon: Good point, but I think that might describe Python even better.
2018-10-18T18:49:18Z qu1j0t3: "easier to enter the GO community"........
2018-10-18T18:49:20Z deuill: Hah, wouldn't know, I'm still learning Scheme
2018-10-18T18:49:49Z qu1j0t3: "serving the needs of experts already in the community" ...
2018-10-18T18:49:53Z qu1j0t3: i kind of doubt these are the poles
2018-10-18T18:50:28Z deuill: Go doesn't support TCO due to the impact on stack traces
2018-10-18T18:50:35Z qu1j0t3: which is ludicrous
2018-10-18T18:50:50Z qu1j0t3: i think that was the same silly way von Rossum defended the lack in Python, too
2018-10-18T18:51:00Z lloda quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2018-10-18T18:51:25Z iskander joined #scheme
2018-10-18T18:51:27Z Zipheir: If their focus were on 'making it easier to enter the community', the Go devs would have implemented lots of stuff that they refuse to. (Generics and exceptions come to mind.)
2018-10-18T18:52:15Z LeoNerd: Exceptions :)
2018-10-18T18:52:27Z qu1j0t3: i'd prefer the former over the latter for error handling, but with neither, well.....
2018-10-18T18:52:30Z LeoNerd: Yes; don't forget Rob Pike is the 3rd C author. C/unix being famous for the `errno` concept
2018-10-18T18:52:44Z LeoNerd: So he probably doesn't *mind* lots of boilerplate code that is constantly checking errors
2018-10-18T18:53:08Z gnomon: Zipheir, generics and exceptions are _not_ things complained about by newcomers.
2018-10-18T18:53:17Z pjb: LeoNerd: you mean
2018-10-18T18:53:20Z deuill: Regardless, didn't mean to make this into a language flame war. I've been learning Scheme and have lamented the lack of a cohesive, up-to-date resource... and can offer to help if I can
2018-10-18T18:53:20Z gnomon: Wait, let me back that up
2018-10-18T18:53:26Z pjb: "infamous" for the errno concept.
2018-10-18T18:53:36Z gnomon: sorry, one sec
2018-10-18T18:53:44Z Zipheir: gnomon: Really? The absence of those features in Go is harped on constantly, IME.
2018-10-18T18:54:01Z gwatt: Harped on by experts
2018-10-18T18:54:11Z qu1j0t3: Zipheir: i want generics. and a real typesystem.
2018-10-18T18:54:23Z qu1j0t3: Zipheir: but i'm very happy to ignore GO.
2018-10-18T18:54:27Z zachk quit (Changing host)
2018-10-18T18:54:27Z zachk joined #scheme
2018-10-18T18:54:31Z Zipheir: qu1j0t3: Yeah, exactly, the real story is that Go has a brain-damaged type system.
2018-10-18T18:55:26Z gnomon: Zipheir, it's harped on constantly by PL veterans, yes, but not by newcomers.
2018-10-18T18:55:42Z gnomon: Zipheir, and I agree, it does describe Python more, good point.
2018-10-18T18:55:51Z qu1j0t3: gnomon: i think it would have to be shown that newcomers have any problem with those concepts.
2018-10-18T18:56:03Z Zipheir: deuill: You're probably sick of hearing this, but (A) R7RS is up-to-date and (B) for everything else, look to thine implementation's docs.
2018-10-18T18:56:27Z gnomon: qu1j0t3, that's fair.  I don't think it's that newcomers have problems with those concepts so much as it is that newcomers simply don't care about them yet.  The absence doesn't harm that use case.
2018-10-18T18:56:34Z qu1j0t3: gnomon: ...and that such precepts aren't due to arbitrary prejudice on the part of the BDFL, or ambient anti-intellectualism.
2018-10-18T18:56:49Z gnomon nods
2018-10-18T18:56:54Z qu1j0t3: gnomon: generics don't harm other languages either
2018-10-18T18:56:59Z qu1j0t3: gnomon: they're not a concept you need to use on day 1
2018-10-18T18:57:08Z qu1j0t3: gnomon: in any language i know of. but by day 100, or 1000...
2018-10-18T18:57:48Z qu1j0t3: otoh, i need coffee... Mug[Coffee]
2018-10-18T18:58:13Z qu1j0t3: only drip is now available. the Carafe[Bialetti] has been drained.
2018-10-18T18:59:49Z gnomon: :ohno:
2018-10-18T18:59:52Z gnomon: Is it good drip?
2018-10-18T19:00:44Z lritter joined #scheme
2018-10-18T19:02:04Z lloda joined #scheme
2018-10-18T19:04:38Z jao quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2018-10-18T19:06:46Z jao joined #scheme
2018-10-18T19:34:35Z groovy2shoes quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
2018-10-18T19:52:56Z cozachk joined #scheme
2018-10-18T19:55:15Z zachk quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
2018-10-18T20:21:28Z CrazyLazyDazy joined #scheme
2018-10-18T20:31:15Z wasamasa: johnjay: I tried edwin briefly
2018-10-18T20:31:28Z johnjay: ok
2018-10-18T20:31:33Z johnjay: it doesn't make your point valid or not valid
2018-10-18T20:31:49Z wasamasa: got it running, found it's basically an ancient emacs with little customization, returned to regular emacs
2018-10-18T20:31:56Z lloda quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2018-10-18T20:32:21Z johnjay: now that i think about it making a new emacs would make more sense if there was an ecosystem around it
2018-10-18T20:32:23Z johnjay: like in mezzano or something
2018-10-18T20:32:59Z johnjay: you mean customizability?
2018-10-18T20:36:01Z lloda joined #scheme
2018-10-18T20:37:00Z edgar-rft joined #scheme
2018-10-18T20:38:43Z erkin quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2018-10-18T20:48:09Z dsp quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2018-10-18T20:48:23Z dsp joined #scheme
2018-10-18T21:06:51Z jcowan: Which is why Go has become the, er, go(-to) language of the devops community
2018-10-18T21:07:24Z jcowan: BTW, you can run Chibi in a browser using Emscripten pretty nicely
2018-10-18T21:07:35Z qu1j0t3: is devops the one where devs do ops, or the one where devs throw stuff over the wall to ops
2018-10-18T21:08:47Z jcowan: where ops do dev
2018-10-18T21:10:03Z qu1j0t3 scratches head
2018-10-18T21:10:05Z qu1j0t3: so the 2nd one
2018-10-18T21:10:28Z Ober: compiled binaries are all devops want
2018-10-18T21:10:45Z qu1j0t3: would a jar do
2018-10-18T21:10:49Z Ober: no syntactic parsers and a million inode army of support libs.
2018-10-18T21:11:01Z Ober: actually I found uberjars to be the nicest way to deploy.
2018-10-18T21:11:12Z Ober: but other than jamvm, it's not very useful for devopsy stuff.
2018-10-18T21:11:30Z Ober: /usr/bin/time -avp some-clojure-command
2018-10-18T21:13:36Z gnomon: devops is that thing where scrum managers shove technical debt into containers, right
2018-10-18T21:13:56Z gnomon waits to be hit by very point sticks from all angles
2018-10-18T21:15:36Z Ober: it's where devs think they are ops :P
2018-10-18T21:15:50Z Ober: then they have to work a real datacenter, and end up crying
2018-10-18T21:19:55Z Zipheir quit (Quit: leaving)
2018-10-18T21:20:40Z quipa quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2018-10-18T21:26:16Z DGASAU` joined #scheme
2018-10-18T21:26:43Z DGASAU quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2018-10-18T21:29:34Z CrazyLazyDazy quit (Quit: Leaving)
2018-10-18T21:43:51Z hugh_marera quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2018-10-18T21:57:34Z ravndal quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.2)
2018-10-18T22:05:13Z qu1j0t3: heh
2018-10-18T22:07:52Z johnjay: what are devops exactly
2018-10-18T22:10:23Z aeth: when you force programmers to also be sysadmins
2018-10-18T22:10:50Z wasamasa: when you realize your sysadmins and programmers can't communicate and merge the roles
2018-10-18T22:14:18Z mange joined #scheme
2018-10-18T22:14:22Z gnomon: At some companies that shall rename nameless, devops is where you tell your project managers they are now scrum masters and force them to abandon MS Project and adopt Jira
2018-10-18T22:24:07Z jcowan: our devops guy / sre (he says the difference is entirely political) is definitely an ops guy who does automation with Go
2018-10-18T22:25:39Z kjak quit (Quit: leaving)
2018-10-18T22:27:11Z jcowan: grrr, we hates how R6RS doesn't have `include`
2018-10-18T22:27:13Z cozachk quit (Quit: Leaving)
2018-10-18T22:27:28Z jcowan: it forces you to use libraries rather than files for modular development
2018-10-18T22:29:22Z jcowan: Guile and Larceny have it, as does Sagittarius, only I can't build Sagittarius any more
2018-10-18T22:33:10Z johnjay: google autocompleted different types with "... robbery and embezzlement'
2018-10-18T22:33:17Z johnjay: after i searched for mit-scheme. >_>
2018-10-18T22:33:37Z Zipheir joined #scheme
2018-10-18T22:33:46Z wasamasa: I remember explaining scheme to a random person from the hackerspace and they asked me whether it's a scam
2018-10-18T22:34:58Z johnjay: according to google edwin comes with package mit-scheme
2018-10-18T22:35:27Z johnjay: maybe i'm stupid but i thought mit-scheme became racket
2018-10-18T22:35:38Z hugh_marera_ joined #scheme
2018-10-18T22:36:12Z gwatt: jcowan: chez also has include
2018-10-18T22:36:33Z gwatt: jcowan: but you can also portably implement include in r6rs
2018-10-18T22:37:06Z wasamasa: johnjay: mit-scheme is mit-scheme and racket is what they formerly called plt-scheme
2018-10-18T22:37:55Z jcowan: hmm, so you put it into a library named (include) and then import it into the file containing include syntax?
2018-10-18T22:38:11Z olopierpa joined #scheme
2018-10-18T22:38:26Z wasamasa: johnjay: it just happens that the most interesting application written in mit-scheme is called edwin and comes bundled with it
2018-10-18T22:39:23Z johnjay: wasamasa: is this a gnu thing?
2018-10-18T22:39:27Z johnjay: mit = gnu?
2018-10-18T22:39:44Z johnjay: (i'm assuming anyway cause rms)
2018-10-18T22:39:44Z gwatt: jcowan: if you like
2018-10-18T22:39:54Z wasamasa: johnjay: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MIT/GNU_Scheme
2018-10-18T22:40:00Z jcowan: I guess you need to import it for syntax
2018-10-18T22:40:04Z gwatt: jcowan: http://cisco.github.io/ChezScheme/csug9.5/syntax.html#./syntax:s12
2018-10-18T22:40:19Z jcowan: johnjay: Guile and MIT are both GNU Schemes
2018-10-18T22:41:02Z johnjay: It features a rich runtime library, a powerful source-level debugger, a native code compiler and a built-in Emacs-like editor called Edwin.
2018-10-18T22:41:06Z jcowan: I need to have a fairly pure R6RS implementation for test purposes, so Guile and Larceny don't cut it
2018-10-18T22:41:28Z Zipheir: <johnjay> mit = gnu?  If so, when is MIT going to be renamed GNUniversity?
2018-10-18T22:44:47Z johnjay: ah ok scheme was created at MIT as well
2018-10-18T22:44:48Z johnjay: nevermind
2018-10-18T22:44:57Z johnjay: HAH!
2018-10-18T22:44:58Z johnjay: good one
2018-10-18T22:45:11Z johnjay: The Free College that anybody can edit!
2018-10-18T22:45:53Z Zipheir: If only.
2018-10-18T22:46:03Z qu1j0t3: b 6
2018-10-18T22:49:57Z Zipheir: What's always confused me is that MIT/GNU Scheme and Guile are completely different worlds. Does anyone know if they share any code?
2018-10-18T22:50:19Z catonano quit (Quit: catonano)
2018-10-18T22:50:23Z badkins quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2018-10-18T22:50:29Z wasamasa: why would they?
2018-10-18T22:50:58Z wasamasa: they use completely different approaches to implementing scheme
2018-10-18T22:52:45Z Zipheir: Wasn't MIT Scheme adopted by GNU?
2018-10-18T22:52:59Z wasamasa: yes, so?
2018-10-18T22:53:09Z wasamasa: GNU isn't particularly famous for being good at this code thing
2018-10-18T22:53:40Z Zipheir: wasamasa: I'm just trying to work out why there are two entirely separate GNU schemes.
2018-10-18T22:54:06Z wasamasa: while you're at it, please figure out why there are two entirely separate GNU CL implementations
2018-10-18T22:54:16Z Zipheir: wasamasa: Aside from the obviously different goals of Guile and GNU S.
2018-10-18T22:54:22Z Zipheir: wasamasa: Heh.
2018-10-18T22:54:54Z Zipheir: After I figure out why autotools exists.
2018-10-18T22:54:58Z wasamasa: my bet is that it's far too easy for a project to be added to the GNU software directory, even if it isn't considered important or relevant to their goals
2018-10-18T22:55:21Z wasamasa: guile definitely is important to them, mit-scheme, doubtful
2018-10-18T22:55:45Z Zipheir: Oh wait, forgot about Kawa. Three GNU schemes.
2018-10-18T22:55:49Z wasamasa: ah, kawa
2018-10-18T22:57:44Z wasamasa: I have absolutely no idea why kawa is GNU
2018-10-18T22:57:49Z wasamasa: maybe just for the hosting?
2018-10-18T22:59:19Z Zipheir: I think it might also be that, iiuc, GNU requires projects to assign copyright to the FSF, possibly making it too much work to de-GNU a project.
2018-10-18T23:00:23Z Ober: FSF must own it, so they can do the License Palimpsest they like to do
2018-10-18T23:01:14Z Zipheir: And people who fork GNU projects and call them something GNUless are SPLITTERS!
2018-10-18T23:02:56Z robotoad quit (Quit: robotoad)
2018-10-18T23:05:15Z Zipheir: Kawa is really cool, though, and certainly deserves some of the attention lavished on Clojure.
2018-10-18T23:05:34Z wasamasa: definitely
2018-10-18T23:05:58Z wasamasa: it can teach clojure some things
2018-10-18T23:12:02Z pjb quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2018-10-18T23:12:55Z zachk joined #scheme
2018-10-18T23:14:40Z zachk quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2018-10-18T23:14:47Z siraben: johnjay:  Proof objects, as you wished: https://i.imgur.com/sZStQCF.png
2018-10-18T23:14:58Z zachk joined #scheme
2018-10-18T23:15:15Z siraben: It's not all the way there, but "Show Proof.", well, shows the proof.
2018-10-18T23:16:56Z Ober: wasamasa: didn't kawa predate clojure development?
2018-10-18T23:21:55Z badkins joined #scheme
2018-10-18T23:21:59Z zachk quit (Changing host)
2018-10-18T23:21:59Z zachk joined #scheme
2018-10-18T23:22:58Z Zenton quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2018-10-18T23:23:54Z siraben: I hope to get my hands on The Little Prover someday, theorem proving is fascinating.
2018-10-18T23:24:14Z johnjay: is that the one for exercise 4?
2018-10-18T23:24:24Z siraben: Yeah
2018-10-18T23:24:36Z siraben: Theorem exercise_4 : forall a b:set, subset a b <-> intersect a b a.
2018-10-18T23:25:16Z siraben: I'd rather read a shell-script looking proof than stare at that statement in first order logic.
2018-10-18T23:26:03Z hugh_marera_ quit (Quit: hugh_marera_)
2018-10-18T23:26:10Z siraben: There's also the concept of "extraction" where you can turn proofs into programs (for instance, Haskell functions), I'm not experienced with that, though.
2018-10-18T23:26:31Z johnjay: siraben: FOL is kind of what i wa thinking of yes
2018-10-18T23:26:42Z johnjay: this doesnt look bad though, thanks
2018-10-18T23:26:44Z tautologico: coq proofs (actually any tactics-based proofs) are basically unreadable without an environment to see proof goals interactively
2018-10-18T23:27:06Z siraben: Precisely.
2018-10-18T23:27:42Z tautologico: Lean follows Isabelle in using a more readable proof script, but it's based on (mostly) the same type theory as Coq
2018-10-18T23:30:44Z johnjay: any good intro books youd recommend as a compnaion to Coq?
2018-10-18T23:31:07Z johnjay: also why are we talking about this in a scheme channel
2018-10-18T23:31:38Z tautologico: it's related :)
2018-10-18T23:32:56Z siraben: A formally verified Lisp, anyone?
2018-10-18T23:33:20Z tautologico: I don't know if you asked me but the best "book" for learning Coq in practice is "Software Foundations" by Pierce and others, freely available online. in "paper book" form there's the Coq'art book but it's rather more theoretical
2018-10-18T23:33:27Z badkins quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2018-10-18T23:33:46Z johnjay: ok
2018-10-18T23:34:50Z gwatt: siraben: but then we need a formal verification of the formal verification, which causes your head to explode
2018-10-18T23:36:20Z tautologico: I think verification is not about 100% certainty but about increasing your trust that the code does what it should
2018-10-18T23:36:49Z tautologico: we have a case: fuzzing tools found less bugs in compcert than in any other C compiler
2018-10-18T23:37:08Z badkins joined #scheme
2018-10-18T23:37:44Z zachk quit (Quit: Leaving)
2018-10-18T23:39:42Z tautologico: "The striking thing about our CompCert results is that the middle-end bugs we found in all other compilers are absent. As of early 2011, the under-development version of CompCert is the only compiler we have tested for which Csmith cannot find wrong-code errors. This is not for lack of trying: we have devoted about six CPU-years to the task. The apparent unbreakability of CompCert supports a strong argument that developing
2018-10-18T23:39:42Z tautologico: compiler optimizations within a proof framework, where safety checks are explicit and machine-checked, has tangible benefits for compiler users."
2018-10-18T23:41:35Z siraben: gwatt:  You can't verify Coq, in Coq, right?
2018-10-18T23:42:03Z siraben: Right.  Obviously you wouldn't need to formally verify _everything_, except for the critical pieces of software like compilers.
2018-10-18T23:42:12Z gwatt: siraben: I was cheekily referencing this blogpost: http://james-iry.blogspot.com/2009/05/brief-incomplete-and-mostly-wrong.html
2018-10-18T23:42:23Z siraben: On some absolute scale of things, Proofs >>> Tests
2018-10-18T23:42:35Z siraben: But tests are probably halfway there.
2018-10-18T23:43:34Z gwatt: siraben: look for "formal semantics"
2018-10-18T23:44:22Z kjak joined #scheme
2018-10-18T23:45:02Z siraben: gwatt:  Hah, that's a funny blog post.
2018-10-18T23:46:18Z siraben: 1970 - Guy Steele and Gerald Sussman create Scheme.  Their work leads to a series of "Lambda the Ultimate" papers culminating in "Lambda the
2018-10-18T23:46:19Z siraben: Ultimate Kitchen Utensil.
2018-10-18T23:46:24Z siraben: "
2018-10-18T23:47:11Z Zipheir: "It is a syntax error to write FORTRAN without wearing a blue tie."
2018-10-18T23:47:33Z siraben: Hilarious.
2018-10-18T23:47:53Z catonano joined #scheme
2018-10-18T23:47:54Z johnjay: machine checkable proofs for compilers> cool!
2018-10-18T23:48:29Z siraben: Wadler tries to appease critics by explaining that "a monad is a monoid in the category of endofunctors, what's the problem?"
2018-10-18T23:48:47Z Zipheir: That old chestnut. :)
2018-10-18T23:49:04Z johnjay: In spite of its lack of popularity, LISP (now "Lisp" or sometimes "Arc") remains an influential language in "key algorithmic techniques such as recursion and condescension"[2].
2018-10-18T23:49:22Z siraben: Oof
2018-10-18T23:51:12Z Zipheir: This post is a gold mine of satire, ty gwatt.
2018-10-18T23:51:43Z gwatt: Zipheir: you're welcome. It's one of my favorites
2018-10-18T23:51:57Z siraben: gwatt:  Thanks for sharing.
2018-10-18T23:53:03Z siraben: Does the author still write blog posts?
2018-10-18T23:53:18Z siraben: Last post seems to be March 2, 2016
2018-10-18T23:56:39Z Ober: does anyone ever change the scheme they use to just enjoy/learn something new?
2018-10-18T23:57:00Z siraben: You mean which implementation I use?
2018-10-18T23:57:06Z johnjay: Ober: no why would i do that
2018-10-18T23:57:37Z siraben: Zipheir:  CHICKEN seemed to be much slower than Guile for a program I was writing
2018-10-18T23:58:01Z robotoad joined #scheme
2018-10-18T23:58:08Z siraben: Generating programs for a small stack-based language with microkanren
2018-10-18T23:58:12Z Ober: siraben: yeah, I expected Chicken to be much faster
2018-10-18T23:58:26Z siraben: Not sure what happened there.
2018-10-18T23:59:21Z Ober: cheney mta does not scale perhaps?
2018-10-18T23:59:47Z Zipheir: siraben: Interpreted or compiled?
2018-10-18T23:59:49Z siraben: Perhaps something to do with GC.  Guile went through the roof and consumed around 2 GB
2018-10-18T23:59:59Z siraben: Compiled, I believe
2018-10-19T00:00:03Z Zipheir: Huh.
2018-10-19T00:00:04Z siraben: Let me check again
2018-10-19T00:00:23Z Ober: yeah I spent a lot of time sizing the right one, before gambit stuck. for runtime performance, memory, cpu.
2018-10-19T00:00:40Z siraben: Ugh, "csc" is the name taken by the c# compiler
2018-10-19T00:00:51Z Zipheir: csi performance sucks, but csc usually puts out fast code.
2018-10-19T00:00:52Z siraben: Chicken has a naming conflict with that
2018-10-19T00:01:10Z siraben: csi is the c# interactive compiler, it seems
2018-10-19T00:01:15Z siraben: I had to install mono for a tasks
2018-10-19T00:01:17Z siraben: task*
2018-10-19T00:02:45Z Ober: gambit conflicts with ghost script
2018-10-19T00:11:09Z johnjay quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2018-10-19T00:28:34Z Menche_ joined #scheme
2018-10-19T00:30:03Z Menche quit (Quit: ZNC 1.6.5 - http://znc.in)
2018-10-19T00:36:11Z florilege quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
2018-10-19T00:37:35Z florilege joined #scheme
2018-10-19T00:40:39Z johnjay joined #scheme
2018-10-19T00:40:47Z johnjay: weirdly on my ubuntu-mate there is no mit-scheme package
2018-10-19T00:40:55Z johnjay: but there is something about mit-scheme-doc... o_0
2018-10-19T00:42:53Z keep_learning quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2018-10-19T00:46:06Z catonano__ joined #scheme
2018-10-19T00:49:06Z keep_learning joined #scheme
2018-10-19T00:49:36Z catonano quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2018-10-19T00:49:36Z catonano__ is now known as catonano
2018-10-19T01:05:08Z Menche joined #scheme
2018-10-19T01:05:57Z Menche_ quit (Quit: *BLAM*   Clone terminated.)
2018-10-19T01:09:45Z johnjay: attempting to compile mit-scheme from scratch...
2018-10-19T01:18:31Z robotoad quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2018-10-19T01:27:53Z catonano quit (Quit: catonano)
2018-10-19T01:44:46Z lritter quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2018-10-19T01:45:05Z lritter joined #scheme
2018-10-19T01:45:46Z badkins quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2018-10-19T02:10:09Z montokapro joined #scheme
2018-10-19T02:36:55Z siraben: johnjay: What does compiling it achieve?
2018-10-19T02:40:15Z johnjay: siraben: the ability to run it
2018-10-19T02:41:03Z johnjay: not sure why it wouldn't appear in apt-get... maybe armhf isn't supported
2018-10-19T02:42:30Z enderby joined #scheme
2018-10-19T02:53:55Z olopierpa quit (Quit: Page closed)
2018-10-19T02:56:00Z dbmikus joined #scheme
2018-10-19T03:13:57Z enderby left #scheme
2018-10-19T04:08:23Z montokapro quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2018-10-19T04:15:22Z siraben: And the ability to run is it to run the compiler compiling it!
2018-10-19T04:26:56Z robotoad joined #scheme
2018-10-19T04:29:39Z lritter quit (Quit: Leaving)
2018-10-19T04:29:51Z lockywolf joined #scheme
2018-10-19T04:40:02Z robotoad quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
2018-10-19T04:47:45Z ggole joined #scheme
2018-10-19T04:48:55Z lockywolf_ joined #scheme
2018-10-19T04:51:36Z lockywolf quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2018-10-19T04:52:27Z johnjay: yes it was interesting that you need a mit/scheme install to begin with to compile it
2018-10-19T04:52:36Z johnjay: the portable c version i downloaded failed though with an error
2018-10-19T04:52:47Z johnjay: lot of warnings too
2018-10-19T05:09:05Z robotoad joined #scheme
2018-10-19T05:10:52Z wingo quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
2018-10-19T05:10:54Z razzy quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2018-10-19T05:11:01Z wingo joined #scheme
2018-10-19T05:15:21Z razzy joined #scheme
2018-10-19T05:16:56Z lockywolf_ quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2018-10-19T05:26:31Z jao quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
2018-10-19T05:32:11Z johnjay: wasamasa: i finally got edwin up and running
2018-10-19T05:32:23Z johnjay: i'm surprised there's no menu or whatever, was that introduced in emacs 20?
2018-10-19T05:36:58Z lockywolf joined #scheme
2018-10-19T05:42:06Z catonano joined #scheme
2018-10-19T05:49:44Z ecraven: edwin is not emacs
2018-10-19T05:49:55Z ecraven: in some ways its better, in some its worse ;)
2018-10-19T05:51:21Z johnjay: heh i see
2018-10-19T05:53:39Z razzy` joined #scheme
2018-10-19T05:57:36Z razzy quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2018-10-19T06:03:34Z Ober: "my chain cuts wood. So ideally I should get a chainsaw made out of wood." re: editor must be written in the language you use the tool to operate on. e.g. java/IDE
2018-10-19T06:04:00Z ecraven: Ober: probably not a very good analogy :-P
2018-10-19T06:04:20Z ecraven: looking at Open Genera, I see definite advantages in having *everything* be written in the same language
2018-10-19T06:05:44Z Ober is a lot more full of bull crap, than Oster crap.
2018-10-19T06:08:00Z aeth: Ober: Different analogy: If you make a tool for making tools, then why not apply it to itself?
2018-10-19T06:08:25Z aeth: If $foo is good for making software, then why not the editor, compiler/interpreter, debugger, etc., that $foo uses?
2018-10-19T06:08:52Z aeth: (Maybe Java isn't good for making software.)
2018-10-19T06:09:58Z Ober: speaking of schemes, is there any sort of tallies for popularity?
2018-10-19T06:10:46Z aeth: Ober: Apparent popularity looks like Racket > Guile > Chicken > everything else (possibly combined)
2018-10-19T06:11:00Z Ober: k.
2018-10-19T06:11:38Z oni-on-ion: picture of java https://twitter.com/nihirash/status/880829816072802304
2018-10-19T06:12:06Z Ober: nice
2018-10-19T06:12:08Z oni-on-ion: Ober: interesting quote =)
2018-10-19T06:12:30Z Ober: Oyster even.
2018-10-19T06:12:37Z oni-on-ion: ah, also doesnt diamond need diamond to cut ?
2018-10-19T06:25:31Z johnjay: apparently early humans got stuck on an island called flores in the indonesian area
2018-10-19T06:25:40Z johnjay: the limited resources turned everybody into dwarves
2018-10-19T06:26:14Z Ober: johnjay: yeah, island dwarfism among mammals appear there, and other places for humans, and elephants.
2018-10-19T06:26:29Z oni-on-ion: whoa
2018-10-19T06:26:38Z Ober: But how do you explain the typical Haiwaiian?
2018-10-19T06:26:53Z johnjay: maybe they have plenty of coconuts
2018-10-19T06:27:08Z Ober: line backers in outriggers?
2018-10-19T06:27:10Z aeth: the effect works on millions of years, not hundreds/thousands
2018-10-19T06:27:32Z aeth: also, islands import a lot so the effect would no longer work
2018-10-19T06:27:58Z johnjay: the really bizarre thing was when i learned giant wombats and kangaroos used to roam australia
2018-10-19T06:28:05Z johnjay: but then humans showed up and well...
2018-10-19T06:28:22Z aeth: New Zealand's giants were more recent. 1000ish CE
2018-10-19T06:28:24Z johnjay: they mysteriously met with a sudden demise. Coincidence?
2018-10-19T06:28:36Z oni-on-ion: i find hawaiian most similar to japanese, language too
2018-10-19T06:29:04Z oni-on-ion: giants.. maybe the earth just grew =)
2018-10-19T06:29:07Z Ober: umm... what are Pygmies then?
2018-10-19T06:32:11Z daviid quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2018-10-19T06:35:54Z aeth: oni-on-ion: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moa
2018-10-19T06:39:02Z johnjay: dear god Lisp in Small Pieces is 100 dollars on amazon
2018-10-19T06:39:08Z johnjay: even used (!)
2018-10-19T06:42:20Z skapata quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2018-10-19T06:43:51Z TheGreekOwl quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2018-10-19T06:44:24Z Ober: johnjay: yeah.. a lot of the classics are much harder to find now
2018-10-19T06:48:58Z oni-on-ion: aeth: wow, gone since 1300-1400 ..
2018-10-19T06:49:57Z ecraven: if you can read french, the original les langages lisp might be cheaper?
2018-10-19T06:52:53Z elderK joined #scheme
2018-10-19T06:57:22Z Ober: you could fine someone here who would sell you it no doubt.
2018-10-19T06:58:23Z florilege quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2018-10-19T06:59:32Z ecraven: there's probably a pdf somewhere on the internet
2018-10-19T07:01:24Z oni-on-ion: the internet does indeed have pdf files.
2018-10-19T07:02:09Z catonano quit (Quit: catonano)
2018-10-19T07:02:56Z lockywolf quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2018-10-19T07:03:24Z lockywolf joined #scheme
2018-10-19T07:15:08Z wasamasa: siraben: the CHICKEN GC can become the bottleneck, yes
2018-10-19T07:15:19Z wasamasa: siraben: you might have more luck after tweaking its parameters
2018-10-19T07:15:34Z wasamasa: siraben: alternatively, try the route of writing the program that it doesn't use up 2G RAM :P
2018-10-19T07:19:45Z mange quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2018-10-19T07:32:35Z johnjay quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2018-10-19T07:33:51Z weinholt quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2018-10-19T07:34:56Z lockywolf quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2018-10-19T07:35:09Z lockywolf joined #scheme
2018-10-19T07:39:45Z weinholt joined #scheme
2018-10-19T07:47:59Z razzy`` joined #scheme
2018-10-19T07:52:13Z razzy` quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
2018-10-19T07:52:59Z lockywolf quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
2018-10-19T07:54:30Z Ober: garbage free programming. :P
2018-10-19T08:02:50Z TheGreekOwl joined #scheme
2018-10-19T08:04:17Z TheGreekOwl quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2018-10-19T08:08:25Z razzy`` quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2018-10-19T08:08:43Z razzy`` joined #scheme
2018-10-19T08:10:49Z razzy`` quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2018-10-19T08:11:06Z razzy`` joined #scheme
2018-10-19T08:12:33Z civodul joined #scheme
2018-10-19T08:13:00Z Ober looks for the scheme equivalent of working with binary data. e.g. fileHeader = [ "4B", "49", "54" ... ]
2018-10-19T08:21:04Z ecraven: I've used bytevectors and bytevector-u8-ref and friends for that before
2018-10-19T08:22:48Z Ober: ahh ok. u8vector it is
2018-10-19T08:22:57Z ecraven: not a very nice abstraction, but works
2018-10-19T08:23:02Z ecraven: maybe gerbil has something specific?
2018-10-19T08:23:05Z Ober: aye, thanks
2018-10-19T08:23:06Z ecraven: erlang has nice binary syntax
2018-10-19T08:23:27Z ecraven: I've written specific DSLs for things before, like X11 messages
2018-10-19T08:35:23Z quipa joined #scheme
2018-10-19T08:45:04Z jcowan quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity)
2018-10-19T08:47:25Z Zenton joined #scheme
2018-10-19T09:03:56Z catonano joined #scheme
2018-10-19T09:05:11Z ravndal joined #scheme
2018-10-19T09:26:37Z razzy`` quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2018-10-19T09:26:54Z razzy`` joined #scheme
2018-10-19T09:29:09Z robotoad quit (Quit: robotoad)
2018-10-19T10:07:20Z pie___ joined #scheme
2018-10-19T10:10:41Z pie__ quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
2018-10-19T10:15:47Z catonano quit (Quit: catonano)
2018-10-19T11:17:20Z catonano joined #scheme
2018-10-19T11:21:34Z DKordic joined #scheme
2018-10-19T11:27:57Z jcowan joined #scheme
2018-10-19T11:42:57Z jcowan: hence the famous maltese elephant'
2018-10-19T11:43:26Z jcowan: y'know, the thriller starring humphrey bogart?
2018-10-19T12:03:17Z TheGreekOwl joined #scheme
2018-10-19T12:04:01Z qu1j0t3: and lindsay lohan, yeah i know it
2018-10-19T12:06:44Z siraben: wasamasa: It uses a lot of memory because I'm using streams (which are memoized) and it does a large search
2018-10-19T12:07:07Z siraben: Relational programming isn't memory friendly.
2018-10-19T12:09:24Z jcowan: https://www.rulit.me/books/the-maltese-elephant-read-368867-1.html
2018-10-19T12:09:38Z quipa quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2018-10-19T12:10:43Z catonano quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2018-10-19T12:11:12Z catonano joined #scheme
2018-10-19T12:27:36Z razzy`` quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
2018-10-19T12:35:51Z jao joined #scheme
2018-10-19T12:50:23Z lockywolf joined #scheme
2018-10-19T12:56:09Z catonano quit (Quit: catonano)
2018-10-19T13:28:43Z catonano joined #scheme
2018-10-19T13:30:48Z Inline quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2018-10-19T13:41:45Z daviid joined #scheme
2018-10-19T14:00:01Z lockywolf quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
2018-10-19T14:15:00Z dbmikus_ joined #scheme
2018-10-19T14:21:40Z edw joined #scheme
2018-10-19T14:26:06Z Inline joined #scheme
2018-10-19T14:28:00Z catonano quit (Quit: catonano)
2018-10-19T14:28:40Z catonano joined #scheme
2018-10-19T14:32:01Z dbmikus__ joined #scheme
2018-10-19T14:34:11Z dbmikus_ quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
2018-10-19T14:38:50Z terrorjack quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity)
2018-10-19T14:40:36Z robotoad joined #scheme
2018-10-19T14:41:45Z oats joined #scheme
2018-10-19T14:42:12Z oats: hello, could someone help me understand what's going on with this?
2018-10-19T14:42:56Z oats: (map (lambda (x) (list 'quote x)) (list 1 2 3 4))
2018-10-19T14:43:23Z oats: I'm not sure I understand what (list 'quote x) is doing to the list
2018-10-19T14:43:24Z rain2: what dont you understand?
2018-10-19T14:43:31Z rain2: ok
2018-10-19T14:43:43Z rain2: $1 = ((quote 1) (quote 2) (quote 3) (quote 4))
2018-10-19T14:43:47Z rain2: when you run it you get this result
2018-10-19T14:44:06Z rain2: (list 'quote x) creates a list like this (quote X)
2018-10-19T14:44:23Z rain2: just like how (list 'quux x) creates a list like this (quux X)
2018-10-19T14:44:34Z oats: ah
2018-10-19T14:44:41Z edw: oats: Also, please let us know what end you're trying to achieve.
2018-10-19T14:44:52Z rain2: no need that question was self contained and fine
2018-10-19T14:45:06Z oats: I was reading https://stackoverflow.com/a/15551034 and trying to figure out why it was necessary
2018-10-19T14:45:18Z edw: Thanks, oats.
2018-10-19T14:45:25Z wasamasa: evil eval
2018-10-19T14:45:25Z oats: np
2018-10-19T14:45:31Z edw: And thank you, rain2.
2018-10-19T14:45:48Z rain2: wtf
2018-10-19T14:45:53Z alezost joined #scheme
2018-10-19T14:46:36Z oats: rain2: ehh, XY problems are rampant
2018-10-19T14:46:44Z oats: I'm willing to forgive edw :P
2018-10-19T14:54:19Z dbmikus quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.2)
2018-10-19T14:54:41Z edw: oats: The quotes are unnecessary if you restrict the input to numbers, because numbers are self-quoting in Scheme (and Common Lisp, the language in which the Stack Overflo answer is written).
2018-10-19T14:55:31Z oats: yeah, I was just using numbers as filler
2018-10-19T14:55:34Z oats: they could be anything
2018-10-19T14:56:00Z edw: There's no guarantee the code makes sense; it's Stack Overflow.
2018-10-19T14:56:53Z edw: Right, because if you pass 'x, hoping to reference the value of the variable x, you're going to get (quote x), which, umm, what is the point of that?
2018-10-19T14:58:22Z edw: The reason I asked why you were asking was for precisely this reason: You may be trying to find the meaning in something that is essentally meaningless.
2018-10-19T14:59:46Z dtornabene joined #scheme
2018-10-19T15:04:28Z robotoad quit (Quit: robotoad)
2018-10-19T15:06:06Z edgar-rft: Lets use (map (lambda (x) (list 'quote x)) ...) to quote all the meaningles things in our meaningless lifes
2018-10-19T15:10:15Z edw: oats: If someone held a gun to my head and asked me to answer that Stack Overflow question in Scheme, I'd write this:
2018-10-19T15:10:28Z edw: https://pastebin.com/tWiL0ZY4
2018-10-19T15:12:33Z edw: Or duh, you don't even need the map...
2018-10-19T15:12:40Z edw Smacks head
2018-10-19T15:12:41Z ski was wondering ..
2018-10-19T15:13:41Z edw: Whihc renders the procedure un-paste-worthy: `(define (my-apply func args) (eval `(,func ,@args)))`.
2018-10-19T15:16:36Z siraben: edw:  Why are you mapping the identity function to the argument list?
2018-10-19T15:19:16Z edw: siraben: I saw the `map` in the original code, thought, "No, you map the sequence over the identity function," remembered that, unlike Clojure, Scheme doesn't have a builtin, and then re-wrote it without realizing the whole thing is a nop.
2018-10-19T15:19:50Z siraben claps three times
2018-10-19T15:19:56Z edw: siraben: Short answer: because I'm dumb.
2018-10-19T15:28:33Z oats: edw: I am unfamiliar with the backticks, the commas, and the @s
2018-10-19T15:30:13Z qu1j0t3: quasi-quotation
2018-10-19T15:30:24Z qu1j0t3: (for googling)
2018-10-19T15:30:28Z oats: ok
2018-10-19T15:30:33Z jcowan: The same as double quotes in the shell, if you're familiar with that
2018-10-19T15:31:07Z oats: I'm a scheme newbie, and I'm writing a scheme-like interpreter for fun :P
2018-10-19T15:31:18Z oats: trying to see how few builtins I can get away with
2018-10-19T15:33:26Z edgar-rft will use edw's code to apply useless crap to all the quoted things in his meaningless life
2018-10-19T15:33:29Z siraben: oats:  All you need is lambda
2018-10-19T15:33:46Z oats: siraben: ...for real?
2018-10-19T15:34:54Z siraben: Sure, why not.
2018-10-19T15:35:15Z siraben: It's Turing complete.
2018-10-19T15:35:47Z edgar-rft: hmm, was Turing ever inomplete?
2018-10-19T15:35:56Z siraben: http://matt.might.net/articles/compiling-up-to-lambda-calculus/
2018-10-19T15:36:18Z siraben: edgar-rft:  Nah, but Gödel was.  Twice.
2018-10-19T15:36:45Z oats: siraben: from that, you can get arithmetic, lists, cond, let, if, and everything else?...
2018-10-19T15:37:33Z siraben: Yes.
2018-10-19T15:37:38Z siraben: See the bottom of the post for Factorial
2018-10-19T15:39:13Z Zenton quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2018-10-19T15:39:56Z catonano quit (Quit: catonano)
2018-10-19T15:41:15Z oats: I dunno if this is relevant, but I'm not writing a scheme in scheme, I'm writing it with rust :P
2018-10-19T15:41:40Z rain2: are you doing a garbage collector?
2018-10-19T15:41:50Z robotoad joined #scheme
2018-10-19T15:43:11Z oats: rain2: hmm?
2018-10-19T15:43:34Z oats: (I don't know if I'll ever give it, like, full scripting capabilities, all I have for the moment is a repl)
2018-10-19T15:43:49Z jcowan: Toys don't need garbage collectors: they can just clear everything on the next prompt, like SIOD does.
2018-10-19T15:43:52Z rain2: as part of the interpreter
2018-10-19T15:44:22Z oats: rain2: nope, don't see why I need one right now
2018-10-19T15:44:34Z rain2: aw, it would be really interesting to see how that is done in rust
2018-10-19T15:45:03Z wasamasa: oats: it's otherwise rather tricky to retrofit
2018-10-19T15:45:37Z wasamasa: rain2: reference counting?
2018-10-19T15:48:47Z florilege joined #scheme
2018-10-19T16:10:03Z hugh_marera joined #scheme
2018-10-19T16:13:56Z klovett quit
2018-10-19T16:21:53Z erkin joined #scheme
2018-10-19T16:29:34Z jcowan: perhaps by the time oats is done, shifgrethor will be available, though you can't modify shifgrethor-controlled objects
2018-10-19T16:30:10Z jcowan: Conservative GCs are pretty easy to retrofit: I retrofitted BDW to the Joy source with no tribble at all.
2018-10-19T16:30:39Z oats: jcowan: shifgrethor?
2018-10-19T16:30:59Z jcowan: https://boats.gitlab.io/blog/post/shifgrethor-i/
2018-10-19T16:31:04Z jcowan: (very early stages)
2018-10-19T16:31:38Z ecraven: hm.. there are statically typed units libraries in C++, which you can use to ensure that your calculations all have correct units.. is there any way to get something like this in Scheme? preferable without any runtime overhead :-/
2018-10-19T16:31:52Z oats: jcowan: oh, well that's interesting
2018-10-19T16:32:30Z robotoad quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2018-10-19T16:32:54Z robotoad joined #scheme
2018-10-19T16:34:01Z sethalves joined #scheme
2018-10-19T16:44:34Z civodul quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 26.1))
2018-10-19T16:58:01Z jcowan: Scheme is all about the runtime overhead.  :-)
2018-10-19T17:06:58Z alezost quit (Quit: I live in GuixSD <http://www.gnu.org/s/guix> and Emacs <http://www.gnu.org/s/emacs>)
2018-10-19T17:10:14Z erkin quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2018-10-19T17:23:40Z Zenton joined #scheme
2018-10-19T17:24:05Z skapata joined #scheme
2018-10-19T17:25:03Z segfault_ is now known as flerovite
2018-10-19T17:25:06Z dtornabene quit (Quit: Leaving)
2018-10-19T17:27:45Z pjb joined #scheme
2018-10-19T17:34:25Z lritter joined #scheme
2018-10-19T17:37:00Z robotoad_ joined #scheme
2018-10-19T17:37:45Z robotoad quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2018-10-19T17:45:38Z DGASAU` quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 26.1))
2018-10-19T17:46:02Z DGASAU joined #scheme
2018-10-19T17:46:04Z massma joined #scheme
2018-10-19T18:10:38Z lambda-11235 joined #scheme
2018-10-19T18:44:07Z catonano joined #scheme
2018-10-19T18:49:37Z zachk joined #scheme
2018-10-19T18:52:28Z zachk quit (Changing host)
2018-10-19T18:52:28Z zachk joined #scheme
2018-10-19T19:18:27Z ngz joined #scheme
2018-10-19T19:28:31Z razzy joined #scheme
2018-10-19T19:30:40Z catonano quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2018-10-19T19:31:06Z catonano joined #scheme
2018-10-19T19:33:03Z catonano quit (Client Quit)
2018-10-19T19:33:41Z catonano joined #scheme
2018-10-19T19:38:28Z ggole quit (Quit: ggole)
2018-10-19T20:04:31Z hugh_marera quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2018-10-19T20:07:06Z ngz quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2018-10-19T20:14:21Z rain2: https://stackoverflow.com/questions/52897830/confused-about-memoization-performance-sicp-exercise-3-27/52898974 i helped answer someones SICP question
2018-10-19T20:14:24Z rudybot: http://teensy.info/aubJ6cV7J0
2018-10-19T20:21:54Z civodul joined #scheme
2018-10-19T20:25:42Z pjb quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2018-10-19T20:37:29Z lambda-11235 quit (Quit: Bye)
2018-10-19T20:38:46Z muelleme joined #scheme
2018-10-19T20:53:10Z catonano quit (Quit: catonano)
2018-10-19T20:53:47Z catonano joined #scheme
2018-10-19T20:57:10Z pjb joined #scheme
2018-10-19T21:26:33Z robotoad_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2018-10-19T21:27:26Z robotoad joined #scheme
2018-10-19T21:29:56Z pjb quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2018-10-19T21:30:53Z emacsoma1 is now known as emacsomancer
2018-10-19T21:40:34Z pierpa joined #scheme
2018-10-19T21:48:21Z sethalves quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2018-10-19T21:48:33Z pjb joined #scheme
2018-10-19T22:08:00Z razzy quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2018-10-19T22:09:53Z muelleme quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
2018-10-19T22:10:07Z klovett joined #scheme
2018-10-19T22:19:34Z catonano quit (Quit: catonano)
2018-10-19T22:30:21Z daviid quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2018-10-19T22:34:29Z rain2: Does anybody have examples of continuations pattern like this (reset ... (shift k1 ...) (shift k2 ...))?
2018-10-19T22:37:35Z badkins joined #scheme
2018-10-19T22:39:51Z smazga quit (Quit: leaving)
2018-10-19T22:50:06Z civodul quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 26.1))
2018-10-19T22:56:37Z massma quit (Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 26.1)
2018-10-19T22:58:20Z robotoad quit (Quit: robotoad)
2018-10-19T23:04:23Z ski: rain2 : hmm .. iirc some of the linguistic side-effects papers by Chung Chieh-Shan ior Chris Barker ?
2018-10-19T23:05:10Z ski: (there's probably more CSy examples as well, but i'm not sure i remember any on the top of my mind)
2018-10-19T23:05:19Z rain2: i'l have a look!
2018-10-19T23:06:56Z ski: look for quantifiers
2018-10-19T23:06:57Z muelleme joined #scheme
2018-10-19T23:13:15Z muelleme quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2018-10-19T23:27:24Z daviid joined #scheme
2018-10-19T23:34:33Z pjb quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2018-10-19T23:55:54Z robotoad joined #scheme
2018-10-20T00:02:29Z pjb joined #scheme
2018-10-20T00:05:18Z Zipheir: rain2: That is a very interesting exercise from SICP. I recall thinking the O(n) performance of memo-fib was magic, at first.
2018-10-20T00:06:01Z Zipheir: rain2: It's really impressive how even random exercises from that book suggest entire areas of research!
2018-10-20T00:06:41Z dbmikus__ quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
2018-10-20T00:34:51Z pjb quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
2018-10-20T00:35:35Z florilege quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
2018-10-20T00:37:32Z florilege joined #scheme
2018-10-20T00:49:12Z zachk quit (Quit: Leaving)
2018-10-20T00:57:20Z siraben: There's this interesting concept called "miniadapton"
2018-10-20T00:57:29Z siraben: Combining memoization and mutation
2018-10-20T00:58:51Z siraben: http://scheme2016.snow-fort.org/static/schemeworkshop2016-miniadapton.pdf
2018-10-20T01:20:16Z Guest13389 quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2018-10-20T01:29:11Z terrorjack joined #scheme
2018-10-20T01:31:02Z robotoad quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2018-10-20T01:32:56Z Guest13389 joined #scheme
2018-10-20T01:38:02Z jao quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2018-10-20T01:41:01Z daviid` joined #scheme
2018-10-20T01:41:16Z daviid` quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2018-10-20T01:41:48Z daviid quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2018-10-20T01:42:51Z lritter quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2018-10-20T01:43:16Z lritter joined #scheme
2018-10-20T01:44:38Z joast quit (Quit: Leaving.)
2018-10-20T01:46:24Z robotoad joined #scheme
2018-10-20T01:48:48Z jao joined #scheme
2018-10-20T01:51:54Z johnjay joined #scheme
2018-10-20T01:52:52Z joast joined #scheme
2018-10-20T02:06:41Z lambda-11235 joined #scheme
2018-10-20T02:09:35Z bpalmer joined #scheme
2018-10-20T02:11:41Z TheGreekOwl quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
2018-10-20T02:20:01Z daviid joined #scheme
2018-10-20T02:23:05Z johnjay quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2018-10-20T02:28:02Z catonano joined #scheme
2018-10-20T02:30:04Z klovett_ joined #scheme
2018-10-20T02:33:27Z klovett quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2018-10-20T02:33:58Z pjb joined #scheme
2018-10-20T02:39:48Z robotoad quit (Quit: robotoad)
2018-10-20T02:44:14Z snits quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
2018-10-20T02:44:37Z klovett_ quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2018-10-20T02:44:59Z snits joined #scheme
2018-10-20T02:50:48Z klovett joined #scheme
2018-10-20T02:53:19Z robotoad joined #scheme
2018-10-20T02:57:35Z daviid quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
2018-10-20T02:59:09Z johnjay_ joined #scheme
2018-10-20T03:02:37Z elderK quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity)
2018-10-20T03:03:31Z pierpa quit (Quit: Page closed)
2018-10-20T03:05:00Z pjb quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2018-10-20T03:06:22Z catonano quit (Quit: catonano)
2018-10-20T03:16:37Z montokapro joined #scheme
2018-10-20T03:17:58Z catonano joined #scheme
2018-10-20T03:37:00Z pjb joined #scheme
2018-10-20T03:42:41Z cmaloney quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2018-10-20T03:50:35Z cmaloney joined #scheme
2018-10-20T03:57:00Z linack joined #scheme
2018-10-20T04:09:55Z pjb quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2018-10-20T04:16:50Z catonano quit (Quit: catonano)
2018-10-20T04:41:01Z terpri_ quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2018-10-20T04:41:38Z terpri_ joined #scheme
2018-10-20T04:44:06Z emar2 quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
2018-10-20T04:45:19Z emar2 joined #scheme
2018-10-20T04:47:58Z skapata quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2018-10-20T04:49:35Z skapata joined #scheme
2018-10-20T04:50:40Z linack quit (Quit: Leaving)
2018-10-20T04:50:44Z catonano joined #scheme
2018-10-20T04:51:38Z klovett quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2018-10-20T04:52:21Z klovett joined #scheme
2018-10-20T05:01:58Z ggole joined #scheme
2018-10-20T05:05:48Z klovett quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
2018-10-20T05:27:13Z lritter quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2018-10-20T05:35:54Z klovett joined #scheme
2018-10-20T05:36:15Z montokapro quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2018-10-20T05:37:01Z terpri_ quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2018-10-20T05:37:22Z terpri_ joined #scheme
2018-10-20T05:40:27Z muelleme joined #scheme
2018-10-20T05:53:14Z jao quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2018-10-20T06:07:12Z pjb joined #scheme
2018-10-20T06:10:21Z florilege quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2018-10-20T06:14:35Z gwatt quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
2018-10-20T06:27:24Z pjb quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2018-10-20T06:33:18Z wigust joined #scheme
2018-10-20T06:40:12Z wangzhe joined #scheme
2018-10-20T06:43:31Z rotty quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2018-10-20T06:53:15Z TheGreekOwl joined #scheme
2018-10-20T06:59:05Z skapata quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2018-10-20T07:01:20Z wigust quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2018-10-20T07:01:32Z TheGreekOwl quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
2018-10-20T07:02:45Z wigust joined #scheme
2018-10-20T07:03:41Z razzy joined #scheme
2018-10-20T07:12:56Z pjb joined #scheme
2018-10-20T07:34:03Z aeth quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2018-10-20T07:35:11Z aeth joined #scheme
2018-10-20T07:37:46Z pjb quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2018-10-20T07:39:41Z reverse_light quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2018-10-20T07:47:29Z catonano quit (Quit: catonano)
2018-10-20T07:48:48Z muelleme quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2018-10-20T07:51:15Z wigust- joined #scheme
2018-10-20T07:53:33Z wigust quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2018-10-20T08:09:53Z pjb joined #scheme
2018-10-20T08:11:44Z lambda-11235 quit (Quit: Bye)
2018-10-20T08:18:13Z catonano joined #scheme
2018-10-20T08:18:29Z elderK joined #scheme
2018-10-20T08:24:51Z TheGreekOwl joined #scheme
2018-10-20T08:26:32Z razzy` joined #scheme
2018-10-20T08:26:39Z razzy` quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2018-10-20T08:26:52Z TheGreekOwl quit (Client Quit)
2018-10-20T08:28:19Z kjak quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2018-10-20T08:33:50Z wangzhe left #scheme
2018-10-20T08:34:43Z kjak joined #scheme
2018-10-20T08:42:31Z pjb quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2018-10-20T08:44:48Z muelleme joined #scheme
2018-10-20T08:51:33Z muelleme quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
2018-10-20T09:01:12Z pjb joined #scheme
2018-10-20T09:34:59Z catonano quit (Quit: catonano)
2018-10-20T09:35:39Z catonano joined #scheme
2018-10-20T09:37:09Z razzy quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2018-10-20T09:39:07Z robotoad quit (Quit: robotoad)
2018-10-20T09:46:30Z robotoad joined #scheme
2018-10-20T10:00:11Z hugh_marera joined #scheme
2018-10-20T10:17:09Z robotoad quit (Quit: robotoad)
2018-10-20T10:34:23Z razzy joined #scheme
2018-10-20T10:39:10Z siraben: Where are the students in the SICP video lectures now?
2018-10-20T10:39:33Z siraben: Interestingly they weren't "students" (i.e. undergrads) but rather HP employees
2018-10-20T10:48:36Z pjb: They are dead or retired.
2018-10-20T10:58:38Z z0d: pjb: you killed the party
2018-10-20T10:59:26Z jcowan: Any mention of death on IRC tends to do that, I've noticed.
2018-10-20T11:00:34Z jcowan: Even just saying I am reaching the MTBF for males of my model year tends to cause a deep silence
2018-10-20T11:01:44Z jcowan: "Peace, good Doll, do not speak like a death's-head, do not bid me remember mine end." --Falstaff in Henry IV Part II, II:iv
2018-10-20T11:14:16Z siraben: Gerald Jay Sussman and Hal Abelson are both alive.
2018-10-20T11:19:46Z z0d: only the students are dead or retired apparently\
2018-10-20T11:20:55Z catonano quit (Quit: catonano)
2018-10-20T11:29:02Z tomasmu quit (Read error: No route to host)
2018-10-20T11:29:13Z edw quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2018-10-20T11:29:31Z edw joined #scheme
2018-10-20T11:29:40Z tomasmu joined #scheme
2018-10-20T11:31:06Z elderK quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2018-10-20T11:32:51Z elderK joined #scheme
2018-10-20T11:48:45Z flerovite quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2018-10-20T11:48:49Z segfault_ joined #scheme
2018-10-20T11:49:25Z vyzo joined #scheme
2018-10-20T11:50:31Z LeoNerd quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2018-10-20T11:51:00Z LeoNerd joined #scheme
2018-10-20T11:52:04Z edgar-rft quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2018-10-20T11:55:39Z Inline quit (Quit: Leaving)
2018-10-20T11:56:33Z Inline joined #scheme
2018-10-20T11:58:58Z pjb: z0d: The professors are only 2, so statistics don't apply on them, once you know they're alive.  The students are 30 or 50, statistics apply.
2018-10-20T11:59:16Z pjb: And professor retire later, in the USA…
2018-10-20T12:00:13Z Zenton quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2018-10-20T12:01:12Z Zenton joined #scheme
2018-10-20T12:02:34Z pjb: All  you could say, is that they have a higher probability to die this year.  Abelson and Sussman are both (- 2018 1947) #| --> 71 |# yo.  So they have a probability to die this year of 0.025482 https://www.ssa.gov/oact/STATS/table4c6.html (and a life expectancy of 13.63 more years).
2018-10-20T12:03:36Z pjb: So 2.54% is a much better chance than wining any lottery.  They'd better make advance payments to their undertakers than buy lottery tickets…
2018-10-20T12:05:14Z pjb: Being 54, in France, I have 3.3% of dying this year.  So they're in better position than me.  This is what winning an economic war does.  People don't realize it.  https://www.ined.fr/en/everything_about_population/data/france/deaths-causes-mortality/mortality-rates-sex-age/
2018-10-20T12:05:15Z rudybot: http://teensy.info/XS3EIt6qFB
2018-10-20T12:05:33Z pjb: By the way, I still buy lottery tickets…
2018-10-20T12:39:31Z gwatt joined #scheme
2018-10-20T12:53:03Z TheGreekOwl joined #scheme
2018-10-20T13:23:12Z florilege joined #scheme
2018-10-20T13:28:28Z jao joined #scheme
2018-10-20T13:38:03Z klovett quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2018-10-20T13:38:19Z klovett joined #scheme
2018-10-20T13:45:58Z Labu quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2018-10-20T13:49:27Z Labu joined #scheme
2018-10-20T13:51:36Z razzy: pjb: well, USA did not win economics war, they win real war :]
2018-10-20T13:51:56Z pjb: Both.
2018-10-20T13:52:17Z razzy: and than exported economics problems
2018-10-20T13:54:04Z razzy: the inflation on dolar is painfull
2018-10-20T13:54:54Z Labu quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2018-10-20T13:55:05Z pjb: Any time, you can refuse USD for your startup.
2018-10-20T13:56:04Z pjb: But I guess it requires quite a strong will, to reject a 1T USD offer for a startup, or even a 100M USD offer…  Foremost when you can guess, that if you say no, their next move will be to do anything they can to kill you.
2018-10-20T13:56:12Z razzy: well, you need to have good protection against democracy bombs
2018-10-20T13:57:42Z Labu joined #scheme
2018-10-20T13:58:06Z pjb: Just a hint: if you get proposed 100M USD for your startup, ask them to deliver gold instead.  it's only 2533.785 kg of gold.  But they will never be able to find them.
2018-10-20T13:58:39Z razzy: i would diversify to several metals
2018-10-20T13:58:48Z pjb: Which prooves that their USD is worthless.
2018-10-20T13:59:30Z florilege quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2018-10-20T13:59:38Z razzy: and several currencies :]
2018-10-20T14:04:38Z razzy: pjb: the thing is, you could sold startup, and copy another one right nex to it :]
2018-10-20T14:04:50Z razzy: which is good :]
2018-10-20T14:06:37Z civodul joined #scheme
2018-10-20T14:08:02Z pjb:  patents.
2018-10-20T14:08:36Z pjb: But indeed, unless your startup is Apple, you can as well sell it, and buy yourself an island in the Caraibes.
2018-10-20T14:10:03Z razzy: why would you want island in carabians?
2018-10-20T14:11:08Z florilege joined #scheme
2018-10-20T14:12:57Z razzy: why would i want island in carabians?
2018-10-20T14:31:45Z Labu quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2018-10-20T14:34:56Z Labu joined #scheme
2018-10-20T14:37:55Z alezost joined #scheme
2018-10-20T14:39:51Z pjb quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2018-10-20T14:44:39Z dtornabene joined #scheme
2018-10-20T14:47:29Z pjb joined #scheme
2018-10-20T14:48:36Z pjb: razzy: Paradise on Earth!
2018-10-20T14:48:53Z pjb: https://www.cnbc.com/2018/06/28/how-richard-branson-bought-his-private-island-for-only-180000.html
2018-10-20T14:49:28Z pjb: Yes, the US Navy can still reach you, so with the rest of the money, you build a space ship company.
2018-10-20T14:52:00Z razzy: hmm,... why would i be in place everybody can bomb out of map and nobody will care :]
2018-10-20T14:57:43Z pjb: razzy: of course, but we cannot all go take refuge in Russia. It's big, but still…
2018-10-20T14:58:11Z pjb: Want to go to Heaven, go to Russia; want to go to Hell, go to the USA.
2018-10-20T14:58:18Z pjb: ;-)
2018-10-20T15:00:41Z razzy: not sure if russia is so heavenly,.. maybe if you practice minimalist living :]
2018-10-20T15:01:06Z klovett quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2018-10-20T15:06:30Z pjb: razzy: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DmfMf4P0xTM
2018-10-20T15:07:19Z pjb: Not saying that we're not relatively safe in France, after all we do have some retaliation nuclear weapon. The questions is just whether they'll work, or if Macron will have sold them before nuclear war.
2018-10-20T15:08:11Z razzy: pffff, nuclear weapons are not good thing to have
2018-10-20T15:09:05Z pjb: Go say that to Kim Jong Un.
2018-10-20T15:09:45Z pjb: Don't be an idiot, if Saddam Hussein had had nuclear weapons, he would live and be happy forever, he wouldn't have been hung.
2018-10-20T15:11:53Z razzy: well,.. propably. some people understand only overvelming force.
2018-10-20T15:13:03Z pjb: you've got illusions.
2018-10-20T15:13:39Z pjb: There's only overwhelming force.  Not always military force, but if not overwhelming, you lose.
2018-10-20T15:14:22Z Zipheir: Oh, this isn't #lispcafe.
2018-10-20T15:14:24Z Zipheir blinks.
2018-10-20T15:14:54Z pjb: Yes, sorry.
2018-10-20T15:15:21Z razzy: ok, people who understand only physical threat of overwhelming force should be dispatched of in some dark alley with extreme prejudice.
2018-10-20T15:15:38Z pjb: You got it wrong.
2018-10-20T15:15:42Z razzy: why?
2018-10-20T15:15:46Z pjb: About each word.
2018-10-20T15:15:49Z razzy: lispcafe?
2018-10-20T15:16:27Z pjb: Well, the USA understand overwhelming military force. But not only. They also understand overwhelming commercial force, finance force, monetary force, "cultural" force.
2018-10-20T15:16:36Z pjb: Yes, let's switch over.
2018-10-20T15:23:10Z klovett joined #scheme
2018-10-20T15:32:11Z muelleme joined #scheme
2018-10-20T15:36:51Z muelleme quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2018-10-20T15:50:32Z skapata joined #scheme
2018-10-20T16:02:01Z razzy left #scheme
2018-10-20T16:02:31Z siraben: Zipheir: What's lispcafe for?
2018-10-20T16:03:27Z pjb: It's for lispers to talk about non-lisp subjects.
2018-10-20T16:03:34Z pjb: So lisp channels can remain on-topic.
2018-10-20T16:03:58Z pjb: To avoid the #emacs syndrome.
2018-10-20T16:04:30Z siraben: Interesting how there's an offtopic channel for lisp languages instead of each one having their own
2018-10-20T16:05:24Z siraben: pjb: I never expect on-topic discussion in #emac :P
2018-10-20T16:05:28Z siraben: emacs*
2018-10-20T16:06:36Z ddp joined #scheme
2018-10-20T16:06:58Z ddp quit (Client Quit)
2018-10-20T16:07:08Z Zipheir: siraben: Well, the #lisp channel is the big one that is most in need of a café.
2018-10-20T16:07:36Z nilg joined #scheme
2018-10-20T16:09:03Z siraben: Hm? I thought that one was pretty on point
2018-10-20T16:11:13Z Zipheir: Because all the talk that isn't on point is in #lispcafe. :)
2018-10-20T16:13:33Z alezost quit (Quit: I live in GuixSD <http://www.gnu.org/s/guix> and Emacs <http://www.gnu.org/s/emacs>)
2018-10-20T16:13:49Z johnjay_ quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2018-10-20T16:14:31Z Zipheir: Although 'on point' for #lisp could mean the usual sport of insulting people for their choice of editor.
2018-10-20T16:14:55Z Zipheir: There's a reason I prefer the #scheme community.
2018-10-20T16:16:26Z razzy joined #scheme
2018-10-20T16:19:20Z segfault_ is now known as flerovite
2018-10-20T16:21:01Z flerovite quit (Quit: Leaving)
2018-10-20T16:21:19Z flerovite joined #scheme
2018-10-20T16:21:21Z z0d: I remember when #scheme was highly active
2018-10-20T16:21:26Z z0d: around 2004
2018-10-20T16:21:45Z z0d: it was very enlightening even just reading the channel
2018-10-20T16:23:14Z ski misses sorbet
2018-10-20T16:23:41Z Zipheir: z0d: How many people are still here from those days?
2018-10-20T16:24:05Z ski: perhaps ten or less, not sure
2018-10-20T16:24:45Z ski: gavino seems to pop up now and then, anyway
2018-10-20T16:25:31Z Zipheir: They were a somewhat famous troll, iiuc.
2018-10-20T16:25:35Z pjb quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
2018-10-20T16:27:08Z ski: they were on ##prolog this year or last year, i think
2018-10-20T16:29:31Z Zipheir: 2004 was near the peak of IRC's popularity, so most channels have probably declined since then.
2018-10-20T16:34:29Z johnjay joined #scheme
2018-10-20T16:34:50Z z0d: there were probable like 60 people on the channel back then
2018-10-20T16:36:30Z z0d: and a lot of people were writing their own Scheme implementations
2018-10-20T16:37:38Z rain2: i wrote my own scheme recently
2018-10-20T16:38:22Z gnomon quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
2018-10-20T16:39:36Z gnomon joined #scheme
2018-10-20T16:50:03Z muelleme joined #scheme
2018-10-20T16:55:54Z pjb joined #scheme
2018-10-20T16:58:58Z jcowan quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity)
2018-10-20T17:18:51Z Kabriel joined #scheme
2018-10-20T17:25:48Z jcowan joined #scheme
2018-10-20T17:26:40Z wasamasa: jcowan: this reads like what you'd dig up: https://www.reddit.com/r/emacs/comments/9pvpxh/a_synopsis_of_dan_weinrebs_undergrad_thesis_a/
2018-10-20T17:28:00Z oni-on-ion: irc is metaprogrammable. can query self =)
2018-10-20T17:28:35Z dtornabene quit (Quit: Leaving)
2018-10-20T17:28:52Z rain2: haha
2018-10-20T17:28:59Z jcowan: wasamasa: ta
2018-10-20T17:47:45Z robotoad joined #scheme
2018-10-20T17:49:41Z florilege quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2018-10-20T18:10:08Z klovett_ joined #scheme
2018-10-20T18:11:16Z muelleme quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2018-10-20T18:13:57Z klovett quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
2018-10-20T18:19:20Z daviid joined #scheme
2018-10-20T18:31:28Z robotoad quit (Quit: robotoad)
2018-10-20T18:34:41Z lritter joined #scheme
2018-10-20T18:40:46Z robotoad joined #scheme
2018-10-20T18:54:05Z zachk joined #scheme
2018-10-20T18:54:32Z zachk quit (Changing host)
2018-10-20T18:54:32Z zachk joined #scheme
2018-10-20T18:56:15Z robotoad quit (Quit: robotoad)
2018-10-20T18:56:31Z florilege joined #scheme
2018-10-20T19:02:50Z muelleme joined #scheme
2018-10-20T19:37:45Z robotoad joined #scheme
2018-10-20T19:44:40Z ggole quit (Quit: ggole)
2018-10-20T19:47:20Z muelleme quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2018-10-20T19:53:55Z klovett joined #scheme
2018-10-20T19:58:06Z klovett_ quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2018-10-20T20:05:51Z mejja joined #scheme
2018-10-20T20:10:47Z mejja: ecraven: have you seen this? http://www.iro.umontreal.ca/~gambit/SW2018-talk.pdf
2018-10-20T20:19:55Z nilg quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2018-10-20T20:30:25Z ngz joined #scheme
2018-10-20T20:36:40Z lambda-11235 joined #scheme
2018-10-20T20:36:51Z pjb quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2018-10-20T20:46:37Z Labmik joined #scheme
2018-10-20T20:47:34Z Labmik quit (Client Quit)
2018-10-20T20:48:00Z pjb joined #scheme
2018-10-20T20:49:13Z Labu quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2018-10-20T20:55:38Z lambda-11235 quit (Quit: Bye)
2018-10-20T20:58:03Z civodul quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 26.1))
2018-10-20T21:20:00Z catonano joined #scheme
2018-10-20T21:20:05Z robotoad quit (Quit: robotoad)
2018-10-20T21:23:18Z Labu joined #scheme
2018-10-20T21:42:19Z hugh_marera quit (Quit: hugh_marera)
2018-10-20T22:02:34Z GoldRin joined #scheme
2018-10-20T22:06:03Z dmiles quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2018-10-20T22:09:51Z logicmoo joined #scheme
2018-10-20T22:10:57Z catonano quit (Quit: catonano)
2018-10-20T22:24:20Z ngz quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2018-10-20T22:24:24Z Zenton quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2018-10-20T22:27:32Z robotoad joined #scheme
2018-10-20T22:33:42Z robotoad quit (Quit: robotoad)
2018-10-20T22:46:18Z daviid quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2018-10-20T22:46:24Z robotoad joined #scheme
2018-10-20T22:51:09Z Ober: how do you convert a u8 vector to an integer? reading midi files and have a u8 (0 0 0 6) and trying to convert it to an integer representing length.
2018-10-20T22:52:54Z Riastradh: What integer do you want?
2018-10-20T22:53:10Z Riastradh: 6?  #x6000000 = 100663296?
2018-10-20T22:53:21Z Riastradh: #x00060000 = 393216?
2018-10-20T22:53:25Z Ober: any int works :P
2018-10-20T22:53:28Z Riastradh: 42?
2018-10-20T22:53:33Z Riastradh: OK:  (define (decode-u8-as-integer x) 42)
2018-10-20T22:54:17Z Ober: yeah porting some midi parsing from CL, and it has 6, for the u8(0 0 0 6). thus 6 would be what I would need in this case. :P
2018-10-20T22:54:50Z Riastradh: (define (le32dec v) (bitwise-ior (u8vector-ref v 0) (arithmetic-shfit (u8vector-ref v 1) 8) (arithmetic-shift (u8vector-ref v 2) 16) (arithmetic-shift (u8vector-ref v 3) 24)))
2018-10-20T22:55:17Z Ober: yeah I'd should have guessed
2018-10-20T22:58:10Z mejja: (bytevector-u32be-ref #u8(0 0 0 6) 0)
2018-10-20T22:59:54Z Ober: Thanks Riastradh
2018-10-20T23:01:04Z ngz joined #scheme
2018-10-20T23:01:39Z ski: rudybot: eval (le32dec (u8vector 0 0 0 6))
2018-10-20T23:01:39Z rudybot: ski: ; Value: 100663296
2018-10-20T23:02:09Z Riastradh: (figuring out which endianness you want left as an exercise for the reader whose brain is functioning more than mine)
2018-10-20T23:02:51Z Ober: fair enough.
2018-10-20T23:03:04Z lambda-11235 joined #scheme
2018-10-20T23:04:22Z Ober: who uses LE these days anyways?
2018-10-20T23:06:47Z Riastradh: Almost all CPUs on the planet, probably, and most data formats outside TCP/IP packet headers...
2018-10-20T23:08:10Z elderK quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity)
2018-10-20T23:10:32Z Zenton joined #scheme
2018-10-20T23:12:55Z Ober: thought you ran on all BE risc for your netbsd
2018-10-20T23:14:19Z Riastradh: I used to use NetBSD on macppc, but haven't done that in a while.
2018-10-20T23:16:15Z jcowan: There is always z/Arch
2018-10-20T23:16:30Z jcowan: if you have either a zillion dollars or a Hercules
2018-10-20T23:20:51Z robotoad quit (Max SendQ exceeded)
2018-10-20T23:29:51Z Ober: thanks again Riastradh.
2018-10-20T23:34:45Z robotoad joined #scheme
2018-10-20T23:41:12Z robotoad quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2018-10-20T23:41:24Z oats left #scheme
2018-10-20T23:50:56Z robotoad joined #scheme
2018-10-20T23:53:42Z mejja quit (Quit: mejja)
2018-10-20T23:54:47Z robotoad quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2018-10-20T23:54:53Z robotoad_ joined #scheme
2018-10-21T00:00:11Z Ober: slightly different. but works. (def (read-fixed-length-quantity nb-bytes p)(unless (zero? nb-bytes)(let ((results 0))(for (byte (in-range 1 nb-bytes))(set! results (bitwise-ior (arithmetic-shift results 8) (read-next-byte p)))) results)))
2018-10-21T00:01:16Z ngz quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2018-10-21T00:06:21Z jcowan: The (rnrs bytevectors) has a whole suite of routines for interpreting parts of bytevectors as integers (of any size, sign, and endianness) or as IEEE floats
2018-10-21T00:06:29Z jcowan: I have just cobbled together a portable implementation of it
2018-10-21T00:06:34Z jcowan: see SRFI 160 repo
2018-10-21T00:06:52Z Ober: oh nice.
2018-10-21T00:06:53Z jcowan: alas, the portable float routines don't quite work
2018-10-21T00:07:46Z jcowan: Bunny wrote me a Chicken implementation and I'd like to write a Chibi one, but I have to find the bugs in my portable SRFI-4, which is layered on top
2018-10-21T00:08:18Z jcowan: then finally I'm modifying two other SRFIs to provide a really complete set of @vector operations
2018-10-21T00:10:25Z robotoad_ quit (Quit: robotoad_)
2018-10-21T00:22:16Z TheGreekOwl quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2018-10-21T00:29:51Z razzy quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
2018-10-21T00:34:37Z pie___ is now known as pie__
2018-10-21T00:35:39Z florilege quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2018-10-21T00:37:31Z florilege joined #scheme
2018-10-21T00:49:34Z EternalZenith joined #scheme
2018-10-21T00:50:15Z badkins quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2018-10-21T00:53:39Z karlguy joined #scheme
2018-10-21T01:08:16Z Riastradh: jcowan: Maybe you would like <http://git.savannah.gnu.org/cgit/mit-scheme.git/tree/src/runtime/ieee754.scm>?
2018-10-21T01:08:40Z jcowan: Thanks, you gave it to me already
2018-10-21T01:08:56Z Riastradh: Heh.
2018-10-21T01:09:02Z Riastradh highly predictable
2018-10-21T01:09:18Z Riastradh: (I found a bug in it a few months ago, but I don't remember now what the bug was or whether I fixed it.)
2018-10-21T01:09:20Z jcowan: (No, wait, that wasn't what I thought it was.  Thanks!)
2018-10-21T01:09:53Z Riastradh: (Something related to subnormals and fenceposts, probably.)
2018-10-21T01:12:06Z Riastradh: Whoa, maybe it was two years ago and I fixed it.
2018-10-21T01:24:58Z robotoad joined #scheme
2018-10-21T01:29:02Z ski: Ober : could probably use `do' (or named `let') or foof-`loop', instead of the `set!'
2018-10-21T01:30:03Z EternalZenith quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2018-10-21T01:30:14Z ski: (`def' ?)
2018-10-21T01:31:19Z Riastradh: Sanity check.  Suppose F(x) = (1 + E(x)) G(x) where |E(x)| <= eps.  Is |(F(x) - G(x))/F(x)| <= eps too?  I feel like I'm forgetting a blindingly obvious well-known theorem in numerical analysis about inverting relative errors.
2018-10-21T01:31:57Z pjb quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2018-10-21T01:40:44Z lritter quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2018-10-21T01:41:03Z lritter joined #scheme
2018-10-21T02:00:38Z Riastradh: Answer: only if E(x) is positive, it seems.
2018-10-21T02:00:58Z robotoad quit (Max SendQ exceeded)
2018-10-21T02:02:15Z Riastradh: Simplified: let a = (1 + e)*b, 0 <= e <= eps; then |(a - b)/a| = |((1 + e)*b - b)/(1 + e)*b| = |e/(1 + e)| <= |e| since 1 + e >= 1.
2018-10-21T02:03:45Z pjb joined #scheme
2018-10-21T02:12:20Z robotoad joined #scheme
2018-10-21T02:14:34Z robotoad quit (Client Quit)
2018-10-21T02:16:06Z GoldRin quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2018-10-21T02:16:17Z GoldRin joined #scheme
2018-10-21T02:20:57Z Kabriel: What is a good scheme compiler to use on linux for learning (somewhat familiar with CL using sbcl).
2018-10-21T02:21:55Z Riastradh: But if e < 0, then |(a - b)/a| = |e/(1 + e)| = |-e/(1 - e)| = |e/(1 - e)| <= |eps/(1 - eps)| = eps + eps^2 + eps^3 + ..., which is not so bad.
2018-10-21T02:22:59Z Riastradh: So, if relerr_a(b) = |(a - b)/a| <= eps, then relerr_b(a) <= eps/(1 - eps) = eps + eps^2 + eps^3 + ....
2018-10-21T02:31:20Z robotoad joined #scheme
2018-10-21T02:35:54Z jcowan: Kabriel: Racket is a good choice for learning Scheme.
2018-10-21T02:36:11Z jcowan: It's not particularly performant now, although that is being worked on actively.
2018-10-21T02:36:38Z ski: Kabriel : Racket is meant to be good for learning (perhaps see HtDP). probably you can learn alternatively using e.g. MIT Scheme (you might want to see SICP as well), Guile, Scheme48, &c.
2018-10-21T02:38:28Z pjb quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2018-10-21T02:42:23Z zachk quit (Quit: Leaving)
2018-10-21T02:42:45Z GoldRin quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2018-10-21T02:43:01Z GoldRin joined #scheme
2018-10-21T02:43:13Z GoldRin quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2018-10-21T02:43:25Z GoldRin joined #scheme
2018-10-21T02:47:12Z GoldenRin joined #scheme
2018-10-21T02:47:51Z GoldRin quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2018-10-21T02:51:34Z Kabriel: thanks. any guide on how to get the sicp package loaded? It doesn't seem to be packaged with racket in 16.04LTS.
2018-10-21T02:52:42Z jcowan: You probably want to fetch the latest from https://download.racket-lang.org/
2018-10-21T02:53:52Z jcowan: then use https://docs.racket-lang.org/sicp-manual/ insructions
2018-10-21T03:06:14Z GoldenRin quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2018-10-21T03:14:28Z Kabriel: thanks jcowan; falling asleep at the wheel. I'll try to finish tomorrow.
2018-10-21T03:25:19Z Kabriel quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 25.3.1))
2018-10-21T03:37:15Z florilege quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2018-10-21T04:23:14Z GoldenRin joined #scheme
2018-10-21T04:27:26Z GoldenRin quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2018-10-21T04:30:37Z jao quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
2018-10-21T04:35:05Z pjb joined #scheme
2018-10-21T04:38:27Z karlguy quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2018-10-21T04:42:24Z linack joined #scheme
2018-10-21T04:53:18Z niklasl quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2018-10-21T04:56:34Z niklasl joined #scheme
2018-10-21T05:03:47Z linack quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2018-10-21T05:06:25Z klovett quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2018-10-21T05:07:09Z klovett joined #scheme
2018-10-21T05:07:33Z pjb quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2018-10-21T05:22:37Z johnjay quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2018-10-21T05:26:45Z razzy joined #scheme
2018-10-21T05:38:20Z pjb joined #scheme
2018-10-21T05:43:29Z catonano joined #scheme
2018-10-21T05:44:57Z robotoad quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2018-10-21T05:48:23Z robotoad joined #scheme
2018-10-21T05:51:37Z ggole joined #scheme
2018-10-21T05:51:51Z klovett quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2018-10-21T05:52:09Z klovett joined #scheme
2018-10-21T05:55:36Z klovett quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2018-10-21T05:56:20Z klovett joined #scheme
2018-10-21T06:10:48Z pjb quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2018-10-21T06:26:06Z lritter quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2018-10-21T06:49:48Z muelleme joined #scheme
2018-10-21T07:17:47Z muelleme quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2018-10-21T07:28:27Z lavaflow quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2018-10-21T07:30:23Z lavaflow joined #scheme
2018-10-21T07:34:40Z catonano quit (Quit: catonano)
2018-10-21T07:38:56Z mejja joined #scheme
2018-10-21T07:50:39Z mejja quit (Quit: mejja)
2018-10-21T07:53:22Z skapata quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2018-10-21T07:53:32Z lavaflow quit (Read error: No route to host)
2018-10-21T07:53:59Z lavaflow joined #scheme
2018-10-21T08:08:07Z pjb joined #scheme
2018-10-21T08:08:13Z catonano joined #scheme
2018-10-21T08:25:48Z DKordic quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2018-10-21T08:35:57Z lambda-11235 quit (Quit: Bye)
2018-10-21T08:51:13Z muelleme joined #scheme
2018-10-21T08:58:17Z robotoad quit (Quit: robotoad)
2018-10-21T09:17:58Z rain2: http://okmij.org/ftp/continuations/cc-monad.ml
2018-10-21T09:18:09Z rain2: this script implements multiple prompt continuations using single prompt shift/reset
2018-10-21T09:18:20Z rain2: does anyone know if there's a paper that expands on how this works?
2018-10-21T09:30:24Z wigust joined #scheme
2018-10-21T09:32:06Z catonano quit (Quit: catonano)
2018-10-21T09:32:33Z wigust- quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2018-10-21T09:34:35Z robotoad joined #scheme
2018-10-21T09:56:07Z muelleme quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2018-10-21T10:34:05Z robotoad quit (Quit: robotoad)
2018-10-21T10:37:01Z Zipheir quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2018-10-21T10:53:05Z catonano joined #scheme
2018-10-21T11:02:13Z outtabwz joined #scheme
2018-10-21T11:03:18Z outtabwz: When reading r5rs, what am I supposed to make of the word "syntax"?  For example:
2018-10-21T11:03:22Z outtabwz: (if <test> <consequent> <alternate>) syntax
2018-10-21T11:05:45Z wasamasa: it's not evaluated like a procedure
2018-10-21T11:06:25Z wasamasa: with procedure application, all of its arguments are evaluated first
2018-10-21T11:06:32Z wasamasa: this does obviously not make much sense for if
2018-10-21T11:18:17Z outtabwz: So I should think, "this is a macro, not a procedure."  Is that correct?
2018-10-21T11:19:03Z florilege joined #scheme
2018-10-21T11:26:17Z qu1j0t3: it's a "special form"
2018-10-21T11:29:35Z pjb: outtabwz: a macro is different, since it is expanded (or can be evaluated to obtain an expansion, depending on the kind of macro).
2018-10-21T11:30:03Z pjb: outtabwz: syntax (special forms in Common Lisp), are processed directly by the compiler or interpreter.
2018-10-21T11:39:23Z ski: macros are user (or library) defined syntax
2018-10-21T11:40:36Z ski: special forms which are not macros (proper) are provided by the language implementation
2018-10-21T11:41:00Z outtabwz: thanks
2018-10-21T11:41:34Z ski: for most purposes, it doesn't matter to a programmer whether `if' is defined in terms of `cond', or vice versa. the user doesn't care whether `if' is provided by the language, or by a standard library that comes with the language, which defines it in terms of `cond' (then provided by the language)
2018-10-21T11:42:20Z catonano quit (Quit: catonano)
2018-10-21T11:43:39Z ski: it's similar to the question whether say string concatenation is directly provided by the implementation (not defined inside the language, in a standard library), or otherwise defined in a standard library, in terms of more primitive operations in the language
2018-10-21T11:44:48Z jao joined #scheme
2018-10-21T11:45:04Z ski: (also, to be clear, in this context "syntax" doesn't mean the concrete syntax of S-expressions. it means nodes in an Abstract Syntax Tree (AST))
2018-10-21T11:47:22Z ski: outtabwz : makes sense ?
2018-10-21T11:50:56Z wasamasa: outtabwz: given that it's define-syntax, syntax-rules and syntax-case in scheme, you can think of it as a macro-like construct
2018-10-21T11:55:29Z nomad joined #scheme
2018-10-21T11:56:01Z nomad quit
2018-10-21T12:03:27Z catonano joined #scheme
2018-10-21T12:25:23Z outtabwz: ski , wasamasa : I'm not familiar with the inner guts of the language, but I think I got it.  Thank you.
2018-10-21T12:25:45Z ski: np
2018-10-21T12:26:27Z outtabwz: Now I need to find a weeaboo.  I don't suppose there is a channel for weeaboos on frenode?
2018-10-21T12:27:44Z qu1j0t3: i think that's every channel
2018-10-21T12:28:11Z wasamasa: lol
2018-10-21T12:29:20Z outtabwz: really?  I don't mean to be off topic, but I'd like to consult a subject matter expert on Japano-philic matters.
2018-10-21T12:31:14Z wasamasa: let's just say that there's a suspiciously high amount of such people on many channels
2018-10-21T12:31:24Z wasamasa: but I eventually made my own
2018-10-21T12:33:31Z outtabwz: wasamasa: shall i join?
2018-10-21T12:33:55Z wasamasa: sorry, but I dislike people who ask metaquestions
2018-10-21T12:34:10Z wasamasa: nothing personal
2018-10-21T12:34:54Z outtabwz: i didn't imagine anything personal, but whatever.  i'm off to find a weeaboo.
2018-10-21T12:35:06Z outtabwz: thanks for the scheme help everyone
2018-10-21T12:35:08Z outtabwz left #scheme
2018-10-21T12:37:47Z jao quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2018-10-21T13:02:11Z TheGreekOwl joined #scheme
2018-10-21T13:51:29Z EternalZenith joined #scheme
2018-10-21T14:06:24Z karlguy joined #scheme
2018-10-21T14:12:08Z skapata joined #scheme
2018-10-21T14:21:57Z EternalZenith quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2018-10-21T14:23:55Z edgar-rft joined #scheme
2018-10-21T14:28:10Z klovett quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2018-10-21T14:28:25Z klovett joined #scheme
2018-10-21T14:39:25Z hugh_marera joined #scheme
2018-10-21T14:49:27Z catonano quit (Quit: catonano)
2018-10-21T15:04:30Z dbmikus__ joined #scheme
2018-10-21T15:07:36Z karlguy quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2018-10-21T15:22:58Z EternalZenith joined #scheme
2018-10-21T15:28:34Z karlguy joined #scheme
2018-10-21T15:34:52Z TheGreekOwl quit (Quit: I must go, my planet needs me.)
2018-10-21T15:35:23Z DKordic joined #scheme
2018-10-21T15:36:31Z jao joined #scheme
2018-10-21T15:40:27Z karlguy quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2018-10-21T15:58:25Z alezost joined #scheme
2018-10-21T16:01:49Z pjb` joined #scheme
2018-10-21T16:02:16Z fadein quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2018-10-21T16:02:36Z pjb quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2018-10-21T16:10:20Z edw: There seems to be a copy of `format' lurking somewhere in Chibi; does anyone happen to know what module it lives in? `find . -exec grep ... {}' is failing me.
2018-10-21T16:10:50Z xkapastel joined #scheme
2018-10-21T16:36:36Z alezost quit (Quit: I live in GuixSD <http://www.gnu.org/s/guix> and Emacs <http://www.gnu.org/s/emacs>)
2018-10-21T16:50:09Z pjb` quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 26.1))
2018-10-21T16:50:38Z pjb joined #scheme
2018-10-21T16:54:07Z EternalZenith quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2018-10-21T17:04:19Z hugh_marera quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2018-10-21T17:06:25Z hugh_marera joined #scheme
2018-10-21T17:07:02Z karlguy joined #scheme
2018-10-21T17:08:39Z catonano joined #scheme
2018-10-21T17:10:12Z dbmikus joined #scheme
2018-10-21T17:11:09Z dbmikus__ quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2018-10-21T17:29:05Z hugh_marera quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2018-10-21T17:31:07Z hugh_marera joined #scheme
2018-10-21T17:43:18Z florilege quit (Quit: Lost terminal)
2018-10-21T17:44:21Z jcowan: edw: (chibi format), but it is a combinator library rather than a template library
2018-10-21T17:45:23Z jcowan: you can also get the second-generation library from SRFI 159, or if you want a template library, SRFI 48 is your friend.
2018-10-21T17:47:58Z karlguy quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2018-10-21T17:49:29Z ecraven: was it a conscious decision that srfis should only have numbers, not names?
2018-10-21T17:50:10Z lambda-11235 joined #scheme
2018-10-21T17:55:57Z jcowan: probably
2018-10-21T17:56:05Z jcowan: or perhaps just following rfcs
2018-10-21T18:01:53Z jcowan: As far as I can tell, numbering was just taken for granted when the SRFI series was created.  Note that SRFI 1 was the first SRFI, and SRFI 0 was created later.
2018-10-21T18:02:44Z jcowan: however, if you go to srfi.schemers.org (and turn on JavaScript if it's off) you can easily browse and search all the SRFI titles and abstracts, which is usually enough to find the one you want.
2018-10-21T18:03:41Z robotoad joined #scheme
2018-10-21T18:05:07Z Zipheir joined #scheme
2018-10-21T18:06:13Z lambda-11235 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2018-10-21T18:07:27Z dbmikus quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2018-10-21T18:09:47Z ggole quit (Quit: ggole)
2018-10-21T18:12:10Z ecraven quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2018-10-21T18:12:10Z dbmikus joined #scheme
2018-10-21T18:24:18Z alelos joined #scheme
2018-10-21T18:27:07Z ecraven joined #scheme
2018-10-21T18:35:15Z ivanshmakov joined #scheme
2018-10-21T18:51:15Z dbmikus quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2018-10-21T18:52:10Z robotoad quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2018-10-21T18:53:35Z aeth: Where are the April 1 SRFIs, then?
2018-10-21T18:54:52Z robotoad joined #scheme
2018-10-21T18:56:45Z pie__ quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2018-10-21T18:59:41Z edgar-rft: AFAIK the April 1 SRFI was named R1RS for historical reasons
2018-10-21T19:01:41Z dbmikus joined #scheme
2018-10-21T19:09:29Z pjb` joined #scheme
2018-10-21T19:10:26Z pjb quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2018-10-21T19:10:28Z shymega joined #scheme
2018-10-21T19:18:20Z dTal joined #scheme
2018-10-21T19:20:12Z pie__ joined #scheme
2018-10-21T19:25:22Z dbmikus_ joined #scheme
2018-10-21T19:26:27Z dbmikus quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2018-10-21T19:32:45Z pjb` quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 26.1))
2018-10-21T19:33:14Z pjb joined #scheme
2018-10-21T19:33:52Z pierpa joined #scheme
2018-10-21T19:34:48Z muelleme joined #scheme
2018-10-21T19:41:10Z drot_ quit (K-Lined)
2018-10-21T20:00:07Z dbmikus_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2018-10-21T20:19:15Z lritter joined #scheme
2018-10-21T20:21:06Z pie__ quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2018-10-21T20:24:31Z emar2 quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.2)
2018-10-21T20:27:12Z civodul joined #scheme
2018-10-21T20:28:31Z Guest13389 quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
2018-10-21T20:35:36Z daviid joined #scheme
2018-10-21T20:37:08Z edw: jcowan: I'm familair with (chibi show) and the SRFI (and managed to wrap my head around it) but I was looking at some of the benchmark code in the distro which depends on format -- gabriel/maze(2).sch. After a bunch of looking around, I came to the conclusion that I shouldn't have assumed that the above code actually ran as-is under Chibi, even with the chibi-prelude.scm file.
2018-10-21T20:41:47Z catonano quit (Quit: catonano)
2018-10-21T20:42:16Z tyjhgfd6tj joined #scheme
2018-10-21T20:42:22Z catonano joined #scheme
2018-10-21T20:42:40Z tyjhgfd6tj left #scheme
2018-10-21T20:43:12Z catonano quit (Client Quit)
2018-10-21T20:43:50Z catonano joined #scheme
2018-10-21T20:44:37Z edw: Note to future self: SRFI 48, Intermediate Format Strings, contains a reference implementation of `format' with dependencies that Chibi satisfies, namely SRFIs 6, 23, and 38.
2018-10-21T20:46:19Z edw: (import (srfi 159))
2018-10-21T20:46:27Z edw: (show (displayed "foo"))
2018-10-21T20:47:54Z Zipheir: edw: Hopefully your future self still uses IRC>
2018-10-21T20:48:22Z edw: Gotta keep this nick registered!
2018-10-21T20:49:08Z jcowan: Indeed, all R7RS-small implementations support those things (string ports, `error`, datum labels)
2018-10-21T20:49:37Z edw: N.B. The above should be (show <dest> (displayed "foo")). And I mean to type it into my REPL. :P
2018-10-21T20:50:35Z Zipheir: Wow, somehow I missed that string ports are in R7. Very nice.
2018-10-21T20:51:13Z edw: Good to know -- and good to have them in there.
2018-10-21T20:51:28Z wasamasa: there's a bunch of helpers you need to write, but it's not as bad as if you were writing islisp
2018-10-21T20:53:02Z niklasl2 joined #scheme
2018-10-21T20:53:33Z niklasl quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2018-10-21T20:53:44Z Guest13389 joined #scheme
2018-10-21T20:54:06Z niklasl2 left #scheme
2018-10-21T20:55:08Z niklasl joined #scheme
2018-10-21T20:59:08Z jcowan: Oh, ISLisp today would certainly be retrocomputing
2018-10-21T21:02:41Z fadein joined #scheme
2018-10-21T21:13:17Z EternalZenith joined #scheme
2018-10-21T21:16:02Z aeth: Hmm... I wonder how ISLISP-on-SBCL would work...
2018-10-21T21:19:39Z ozzloy quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2018-10-21T21:20:16Z ozzloy joined #scheme
2018-10-21T21:20:16Z ozzloy quit (Changing host)
2018-10-21T21:20:16Z ozzloy joined #scheme
2018-10-21T21:33:24Z edw: jcowan, the thing I never understood with (chibi show) was how to idiomatically extend it for new types. E.g. this works but has a bad smell to me: https://pastebin.com/W5RJb26K
2018-10-21T21:34:10Z lavaflow_ joined #scheme
2018-10-21T21:34:40Z lavaflow quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2018-10-21T21:34:57Z edw: In an ideal world there'd be a way for a record-type to register custom display and/or write (and read) procedures.
2018-10-21T21:36:26Z Riastradh: Why is that a smell?  A global database which causes the I/O behaviour of the program to depend on which order you load modules in strikes me as a much worse smell!
2018-10-21T21:39:44Z pie_ joined #scheme
2018-10-21T21:40:41Z edw: Riastradh: If `define-record-type' were extended (not seriously suggesting this) with a display-proc, that wouldn't have the chaotic ramifications that a hypothetical `register-display-proc-for-record-type' procedure.
2018-10-21T21:40:55Z edw: ...would have.
2018-10-21T21:42:17Z Riastradh: For display that's not so bad; read is another matter.
2018-10-21T21:42:19Z edw: I've recently spent some quality time with a language where structs and classes generally take responsibility for generating human-friendly textual representations of themselves. (Swift.)
2018-10-21T21:42:35Z edw: Riastradh: Yes, noticed how I'm not talking about `read'?
2018-10-21T21:42:39Z pjb: aeth: why should ISLisp be implemented on a specific CL implementation? What's the problem with you guys? Can't you write conforming Common Lisp code?
2018-10-21T21:42:50Z Riastradh: edw: `custom display and/or write (and read) procedure'
2018-10-21T21:42:51Z edw: Enormous can of worms read is.
2018-10-21T21:43:00Z Riastradh: I think you brought it up first...
2018-10-21T21:43:22Z edw: Yes, yes, I backed off that quickly.
2018-10-21T21:44:18Z aeth: pjb: Even r7rs-small Scheme can't be written in conforming Common Lisp code!
2018-10-21T21:44:36Z pjb: You mean, you don't know how to do it.
2018-10-21T21:44:37Z aeth: Sure 95% of it can be but there's *always* some edge cases in stuff like this
2018-10-21T21:45:15Z aeth: pjb: Well I mean there has to be libraries like this for every feature that's not in the hyperspec. https://github.com/Shinmera/float-features/blob/master/float-features.lisp
2018-10-21T21:45:33Z pjb: Anyways, if you start with the idea of making it implementation dependent, you will structure the code badly and it will be horrible.
2018-10-21T21:47:22Z aeth: pjb: Anyway, what I find is that in a large enough application if you use enough portability libraries, you'll eventually get code that runs on SBCL, CCL, and *maybe* ECL. Hopefully. Since usually these libraries don't cover every implementation.
2018-10-21T21:47:50Z catonano quit (Quit: catonano)
2018-10-21T21:48:07Z aeth: I'd count ISLISP as a large enough application. Its standard is over 100 PDF pages.
2018-10-21T21:48:28Z pjb: Since all those implementations are free software, we should work more on adding missing features to the implementations…
2018-10-21T21:48:39Z aeth: Absolutely.
2018-10-21T21:48:53Z aeth: I write code that's implementation-independent that just happens to work best in SBCL at the moment.
2018-10-21T21:49:51Z aeth: Usually my code works best on SBCL, can (almost) always run in CCL (have to test it to get it to run sometimes) even with some feature/performance loss, usually can run in ECL, has some strange issues in CLISP if it can run at all, and can run in pretty much nothing else.
2018-10-21T21:50:47Z pjb: Yeah. You should write code that is more conforming…
2018-10-21T21:50:58Z aeth: (And I'm not going to spend as much time as I took to write the program to get it to work properly in CLISP even if that's possible. 3/4 isn't bad.)
2018-10-21T21:51:22Z pjb: Don't forget ABCL! There are poor souls who have to target the JVM.
2018-10-21T21:51:31Z aeth: ABCL is ime as problematic as CLISP
2018-10-21T21:51:47Z aeth: If JSCL was a complete CL implementation in JS it would be even more problematic than either.
2018-10-21T21:51:58Z aeth: Exotic environments just cause strange edge cases against de facto standards.
2018-10-21T21:52:59Z aeth: Note the difference between applications and libraries. If I write a library, I make it as portable as possible. If I write an application, I start thinking about how many I can support. I consider language implementations (like my implementation of R7RS in CL) as an application, not a library.
2018-10-21T21:55:06Z aeth: Trying to run my R7RS implementation in CLISP or ABCL or JSCL is, for the most part, unwise. Instead of using ABCL, use Kawa. Instead of using JSCL, use some Scheme->JS. Using CLISP for this Scheme would turn it from one of the fastest Schemes into one of the slowest, even if it was 100% functional.
2018-10-21T21:55:12Z civodul quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 26.1))
2018-10-21T21:55:40Z klovett quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2018-10-21T21:58:29Z aeth: Anyway, what you'd probably see if I completed my r7rs Scheme implementation in CL is that it would lack full r7rs conformance when compiled to a CL that lacks the features that r7rs requires, such as NaN or Unicode.
2018-10-21T21:59:52Z muelleme quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2018-10-21T22:00:49Z aeth: I'm not going to spend as much time as it took to write the rest of the program (or more time!) just to emulate missing features in implementations you shouldn't even be using to run the program. Get those implementations to support the de facto standards instead.
2018-10-21T22:01:45Z pie_ quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2018-10-21T22:02:31Z jcowan: edw: R7RS-large comparators can be registered in such a global database
2018-10-21T22:03:20Z jcowan: It's a (non-detectable) error to try to define a comparator whose type predicate isn't disjoint with the standard comparators.
2018-10-21T22:03:33Z Riastradh: jcowan: You should add logistic, logit, log-logistic, and logit-exp, as well as the intermediaries log1mexp and log1pexp.  (Also log1p and expm1 if you don't have them already.)
2018-10-21T22:04:24Z jcowan: The last two I do have
2018-10-21T22:04:54Z jcowan: If you write me implementations for the rest (or cause them to be written) I'll be happy to add them.
2018-10-21T22:05:00Z edw: jcowan: I'll take a look. I'm writing a describer registry at the moment for my personal use and will model it on that unless there's a good reason not to.
2018-10-21T22:05:10Z jcowan: s/define/register/ above
2018-10-21T22:05:24Z edw: Roger.
2018-10-21T22:05:34Z jcowan: you can of course *define* all the comparators you want; registering them is needed for use in the default comparator
2018-10-21T22:05:48Z catonano joined #scheme
2018-10-21T22:06:09Z pie_ joined #scheme
2018-10-21T22:06:29Z jcowan: aeth: I think if I ever write an ISLisp in CL it will be quite portable.
2018-10-21T22:06:41Z jcowan: Note, BTW, that R7RS-small requires neither NaN nor Unicode.
2018-10-21T22:06:57Z jcowan: (it only requires that if you have them they behave properly)
2018-10-21T22:07:09Z pjb: aeth: recently, there was an article passing thru ycombinator, explaining how there are different kinds of dependencies: dependencies on platforms, dependencies on libraries, and no dependencies, and how it was a good idea to reduce them, by making the code independent.  This is how you can increase the life expectency of your software, its maintainability, and of course, how you make it more conforming in the case of CL.
2018-10-21T22:08:04Z jcowan: Lisp code has a history of being adaptable to new Lisps, however
2018-10-21T22:08:31Z rain2: that sounds really interesting, id like to read it
2018-10-21T22:08:40Z rain2: do you remember what it was called?
2018-10-21T22:08:48Z pjb: Indeed. Thanks to macros in particular.  cf. https://www.informatimago.com/develop/lisp/com/informatimago/small-cl-pgms/wang.html or https://www.informatimago.com/develop/lisp/com/informatimago/small-cl-pgms/intersection-r5rs-common-lisp-emacs-lisp/index.html
2018-10-21T22:08:52Z rudybot: http://teensy.info/Gku0iXiD6S
2018-10-21T22:09:13Z pjb: rain2: I've spent ten minutes trying to find it again, with no luck.
2018-10-21T22:09:43Z pjb: Anyways, good night everybody!
2018-10-21T22:10:33Z pie__ joined #scheme
2018-10-21T22:10:50Z Riastradh: jcowan: http://git.savannah.gnu.org/cgit/mit-scheme.git/commit/?id=8decee26f13f3ef09abef2662d2c92b87aeef04c
2018-10-21T22:10:59Z Riastradh: (Small simplification to the tests: http://git.savannah.gnu.org/cgit/mit-scheme.git/commit/?id=575cd55c67b5453939d5753a7deb4017daabd60f)
2018-10-21T22:12:07Z Riastradh: (Extending to complex numbers is left as an exercise for the reader.)
2018-10-21T22:13:07Z pie_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2018-10-21T22:14:01Z aeth: jcowan: I think the problem with Unicode is that it's not very portable in CL. e.g. I'm not aware of any other implementation equivalents to sb-unicode. So I would probably have to reimplement sb-unicode on top of cl-unicode for all other implementations. e.g. sb-unicode:uppercase is the proper way to do Unicode upcasing in SBCL, not string-upcase.
2018-10-21T22:14:24Z klovett joined #scheme
2018-10-21T22:14:27Z pjb quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2018-10-21T22:14:40Z aeth: Afaik, any implementation that's not SBCL that supports Unicode but only upcases ASCII with string-upcase would need a custom uppercase function written.
2018-10-21T22:15:53Z aeth: At the moment, I'd probably "#+sbcl (sb-unicode:uppercase string) #-sbcl (string-upcase string)" until it's clear if that's necessary.
2018-10-21T22:17:02Z jcowan: Riastradh: Thanks
2018-10-21T22:17:45Z jcowan: aeth: True
2018-10-21T22:18:00Z jcowan: Although just because the CL supports Unicode does not mean the R7RS must support it.
2018-10-21T22:18:29Z jcowan: Icon supports only Latin-1, and Jcon likewise only supports Latin-1 even though it is written in Unicode-supporting Java
2018-10-21T22:18:47Z jcowan: But I agree that if the substrate does Unicode, the R7RS should too.
2018-10-21T22:19:10Z aeth: jcowan: Fortunately for the particular example of upper casing it's as simple as (map 'string #'cl-unicode:uppercase-mapping "foo")
2018-10-21T22:19:43Z jcowan: Case folding will require more work
2018-10-21T22:20:09Z karlguy joined #scheme
2018-10-21T22:21:20Z aeth: There are three possibilities for Unicode strings: (1) there is an implementation built-in (like sb-unicode), (2) the standard functions work (either because the standard functions like string-upcase work with Unicode or because there's no Unicode; this would be the default for when there's no implementation-specific workaround), or (3) a function needs to be obtained from or written using cl-unicode
2018-10-21T22:23:03Z aeth: Of course, it's not the implementations themselves that fall into these categories. It's the combination of procedure+implementation that fall into these categories. sb-unicode might be missing something that's required.
2018-10-21T22:25:35Z pie___ joined #scheme
2018-10-21T22:27:09Z pierpa quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2018-10-21T22:27:25Z aeth: I might turn this into a separate library of its own: sort of r7rs-in-CL. Essentially, any function that's not in CL but in r7rs is implemented as a CL function first to keep the implementation of the r7rs standard procedures as trivial as possible.
2018-10-21T22:27:33Z aeth: So e.g. (defun unicode-upcase (string) #+sbcl (sb-unicode:uppercase string) #+upcase-via-cl-unicode (map 'string #'cl-unicode:uppercase-mapping string) #-(or sbcl upcase-via-cl-unicode) (string-upcase string))
2018-10-21T22:27:58Z pie__ quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2018-10-21T22:28:52Z jcowan: The biggest lose would be in a system in which CL strings cannot support arbitrary Unicode characters.  Making R7RS and CL characters different isn't so bad, but making strings disjoint would deeply suck.
2018-10-21T22:30:02Z Riastradh: byte strings all the way
2018-10-21T22:30:54Z jcowan: I've got a bytestring library on the queue, but it uses bytevectors as the data structure, not anything disjoint
2018-10-21T22:31:51Z jcowan: sbcl doco says string-{up,down}case support "a subset" of Unicode case conversion, but unclear what that means
2018-10-21T22:32:02Z jcowan: If I had to guess, I'd say it supported only the 1:1 case conversions
2018-10-21T22:32:30Z jcowan: thus no upcasing of ß to SS
2018-10-21T22:32:36Z hugh_marera quit (Quit: hugh_marera)
2018-10-21T22:34:43Z jcowan: yes, that's exactly right
2018-10-21T22:34:55Z jcowan: string-upcase doesn't conform on SBCL, but sb-unicode:uppercase does
2018-10-21T22:37:44Z aeth: oh, hmm... looks like the map can't work, then. A loop would be necessary.
2018-10-21T22:38:37Z jcowan: right, or a flatmap
2018-10-21T22:40:50Z catonano quit (Quit: catonano)
2018-10-21T22:41:37Z aeth: A clever solution would be to do the map but track in a side effect the index where two characters were requested but only 1 returned (out of necessity) and if any indices like that exist, fix the string. Alternatively, maybe write to a stream in with-output-to-string.
2018-10-21T22:41:48Z pjb joined #scheme
2018-10-21T22:43:22Z aeth: pjb: That's why I like package-inferred-system even though it's fairly divisive. Even if foo/bar only works in SBCL and CCL, foo/baz and foo/quux might be fully portable as long as they don't depend on foo/bar, so implementation support isn't all-or-nothing
2018-10-21T22:43:51Z jcowan: srfi 129 represents mappings as a-lists of the form (src dest ...)
2018-10-21T22:43:59Z jcowan: that is, their elements are of that form
2018-10-21T22:44:12Z jcowan: you could of course use a hash table instead, mapping a character to a list of characters
2018-10-21T22:45:03Z aeth: pjb: Similarly, you could require a foreign library in foo/bar but run the rest without the foreign library installed. (This is how I test my game engine without installing SDL on the cloud tester.)
2018-10-21T22:49:13Z aeth: jcowan: I implement standard procedures entirely in CL at the moment. There might be some exceptions for 6.10 onward when I get to that, and most of the macros make more sense in Scheme when I get define-syntax defined.
2018-10-21T22:49:47Z aeth: SRFIs will probably be mixed.
2018-10-21T22:51:23Z pierpa joined #scheme
2018-10-21T22:51:58Z aeth: (I could move the definitions of the standard procedures into Scheme without changing much, actually, but they're almost entirely just one line calls into the equivalent CL, either built-in or written.)
2018-10-21T22:53:21Z karlguy quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2018-10-21T22:53:42Z karlguy joined #scheme
2018-10-21T22:53:43Z sethalves joined #scheme
2018-10-21T22:56:17Z muelleme joined #scheme
2018-10-21T22:59:25Z mejja joined #scheme
2018-10-21T22:59:34Z klovett_ joined #scheme
2018-10-21T23:01:36Z edw: I
2018-10-21T23:02:08Z skapata quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2018-10-21T23:02:36Z muelleme quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2018-10-21T23:02:36Z klovett quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2018-10-21T23:02:41Z dTal: so I've been poking around this interesting thing https://github.com/evilbinary/scheme-lib
2018-10-21T23:03:09Z daviid quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2018-10-21T23:03:34Z dTal: removing all the binary gunk from it to see if I can pull a clean set of bindings + examples out of it
2018-10-21T23:03:35Z edw: I'm despairing at creating a performant implementation of a SRFI 159 `described' registry. It basically demands using generic functions, and it looks like those typically degenerate into O(n) linear searches of all registered generic implementations.
2018-10-21T23:04:34Z dTal: and it turns out that despite the mess there is actually only one binary file it depends on (not counting the apk)
2018-10-21T23:04:37Z dTal: "scheme-lib/lib/platform/linux/libscm/libscm.so"
2018-10-21T23:06:27Z dTal: and this file is a very interesting object - it clearly contains a complete copy of chez, but it also contains some mighty weird stuff
2018-10-21T23:07:04Z dTal: like this tantalising output from 'strings' : /media/psf/workspace2/chez/app/src/main/jni/libchez
2018-10-21T23:07:57Z dTal: I'm guessing JNI is to do with the Android bindings...
2018-10-21T23:15:40Z pjb quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2018-10-21T23:27:28Z alelos quit (Quit: Leaving)
2018-10-21T23:54:30Z klovett joined #scheme
2018-10-21T23:57:28Z jcowan: edw: I think the intention for SRFI 159 is to use the fn macro to create your own combinators rather than coding them at a low level.
2018-10-21T23:57:47Z klovett_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2018-10-22T00:02:23Z mejja quit (Quit: mejja)
2018-10-22T00:03:58Z dbmikus_ joined #scheme
2018-10-22T00:08:32Z niklasl2 joined #scheme
2018-10-22T00:09:42Z niklasl quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2018-10-22T00:11:17Z emar joined #scheme
2018-10-22T00:32:06Z pie___ is now known as pie_
2018-10-22T00:49:11Z pierpa quit (Quit: Page closed)
2018-10-22T00:55:46Z daviid joined #scheme
2018-10-22T01:03:40Z EternalZenith quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2018-10-22T01:09:47Z sethalves quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2018-10-22T01:10:36Z sethalves joined #scheme
2018-10-22T01:12:36Z pjb joined #scheme
2018-10-22T01:38:15Z lritter quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2018-10-22T01:39:05Z lritter joined #scheme
2018-10-22T01:45:39Z pjb quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2018-10-22T01:49:53Z daviid quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
2018-10-22T01:52:39Z daviid joined #scheme
2018-10-22T02:13:10Z pjb joined #scheme
2018-10-22T02:33:09Z dbmikus_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2018-10-22T02:34:31Z jao quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2018-10-22T02:35:19Z dbmikus_ joined #scheme
2018-10-22T02:36:12Z daviid quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2018-10-22T02:41:18Z karlguy quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2018-10-22T02:46:05Z pjb quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
2018-10-22T02:56:45Z daviid joined #scheme
2018-10-22T02:57:55Z jao joined #scheme
2018-10-22T03:53:46Z klovett quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2018-10-22T03:54:40Z klovett joined #scheme
2018-10-22T04:08:30Z klovett quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2018-10-22T04:19:31Z xkapastel quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity)
2018-10-22T04:20:09Z jao quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2018-10-22T04:22:18Z dbmikus_ quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
2018-10-22T04:35:23Z klovett joined #scheme
2018-10-22T04:43:24Z pjb joined #scheme
2018-10-22T04:53:40Z Riastradh quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2018-10-22T04:54:10Z Riastradh joined #scheme
2018-10-22T05:00:19Z Riastradh quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2018-10-22T05:00:35Z Riastradh joined #scheme
2018-10-22T05:02:06Z Zipheir` joined #scheme
2018-10-22T05:02:18Z daviid quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2018-10-22T05:16:52Z pjb quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2018-10-22T05:41:53Z Inline quit (Quit: Leaving)
2018-10-22T05:44:28Z Zenton quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2018-10-22T06:22:12Z lavaflow_ quit (Read error: No route to host)
2018-10-22T06:22:29Z lavaflow_ joined #scheme
2018-10-22T06:26:36Z catonano joined #scheme
2018-10-22T06:28:17Z f32ff quit (Quit: leaving)
2018-10-22T06:28:44Z razzy quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2018-10-22T06:29:11Z razzy joined #scheme
2018-10-22T06:33:04Z Zipheir` quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2018-10-22T06:46:53Z lockywolf joined #scheme
2018-10-22T06:56:16Z lockywolf quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2018-10-22T07:15:20Z robotoad quit (Quit: robotoad)
2018-10-22T07:33:47Z webshinra quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2018-10-22T07:38:30Z civodul joined #scheme
2018-10-22T07:45:27Z ngz joined #scheme
2018-10-22T07:48:56Z oni-on-ion: is there a scheme which does /not/ use :keyword arguments ?
2018-10-22T07:53:02Z siraben: Are keyword arguments part of R7RS?
2018-10-22T07:55:03Z oni-on-ion: i am hoping not
2018-10-22T07:56:11Z siraben: Are you allergic to keyword arguments?
2018-10-22T07:56:58Z oni-on-ion: yep
2018-10-22T07:57:07Z oni-on-ion: does that mean scheme is infected ?
2018-10-22T07:57:11Z siraben: I'm looking through R6RS right now, and it doesn't appear to be part of the language standard.
2018-10-22T07:57:15Z siraben: Then stay away from Racket
2018-10-22T07:57:27Z oni-on-ion: hehe =) guile too.
2018-10-22T07:57:27Z Ober: :P
2018-10-22T07:57:51Z siraben: You don't need to use them if you don't like them.
2018-10-22T07:58:11Z siraben: Makes your code unportable anyway.
2018-10-22T07:58:11Z muelleme joined #scheme
2018-10-22T07:58:51Z oni-on-ion: true.. not sure how much of guile api for eg. exposes their usage or not (their CLOS-like GOOPS does a lot.)
2018-10-22T07:59:59Z siraben: oni-on-ion:  Also if you don't like keyword arguments, Common Lisp is not for you.
2018-10-22T08:00:14Z siraben: I find that they can be useful, albeit unlispy in CL
2018-10-22T08:00:15Z oni-on-ion: yeah =) thats where i came from
2018-10-22T08:02:01Z Ober: they loved their keyword params
2018-10-22T08:02:52Z Ober would just be happy to do away with the overuse of capitalization in restarts in CL
2018-10-22T08:03:04Z muelleme quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2018-10-22T08:05:30Z webshinra joined #scheme
2018-10-22T08:11:13Z catonano quit (Quit: catonano)
2018-10-22T08:15:56Z catonano joined #scheme
2018-10-22T08:28:53Z ggole joined #scheme
2018-10-22T08:51:10Z lockywolf joined #scheme
2018-10-22T08:53:29Z lockywolf quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2018-10-22T08:53:51Z sethalves quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2018-10-22T08:53:53Z lockywolf joined #scheme
2018-10-22T09:00:55Z lritter quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2018-10-22T09:03:57Z aeth: oni-on-ion: some Schemes use keyword: arguments
2018-10-22T09:08:56Z catonano quit (Quit: catonano)
2018-10-22T09:09:19Z muelleme joined #scheme
2018-10-22T09:09:28Z lockywolf_ joined #scheme
2018-10-22T09:10:32Z skapata joined #scheme
2018-10-22T09:12:00Z lockywolf quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2018-10-22T09:13:51Z muelleme quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2018-10-22T09:18:59Z oni-on-ion: aeth: ohh? do you happen to know which ones? i'd rather like that; or a way to hack an existing one to do so, even
2018-10-22T09:45:07Z sethalves joined #scheme
2018-10-22T09:58:51Z ngz quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2018-10-22T10:03:40Z lockywolf_ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2018-10-22T10:14:07Z bor0 joined #scheme
2018-10-22T10:19:55Z hugo quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.9.1)
2018-10-22T10:22:06Z hugo joined #scheme
2018-10-22T10:42:09Z remix2000 quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.2-dev)
2018-10-22T10:45:47Z InverseRhombus quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2018-10-22T10:48:59Z InverseRhombus joined #scheme
2018-10-22T10:59:22Z bor0 quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)
2018-10-22T11:04:37Z bor0 joined #scheme
2018-10-22T11:04:37Z bor0 quit (Changing host)
2018-10-22T11:04:37Z bor0 joined #scheme
2018-10-22T11:10:20Z wigust- joined #scheme
2018-10-22T11:12:27Z wigust quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2018-10-22T11:21:14Z hive-mind quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
2018-10-22T11:23:07Z hive-mind joined #scheme
2018-10-22T11:37:16Z pie_ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2018-10-22T11:44:17Z bor0 quit (Quit: Leaving)
2018-10-22T11:58:40Z karlguy joined #scheme
2018-10-22T11:59:30Z jcowan: Keyword arguments are on the agenda for R7RS-large
2018-10-22T11:59:41Z jcowan: https://bitbucket.org/cowan/r7rs-wg1-infra/src/default/KeywordSyntax.md details which Schemes support them and with what syntax
2018-10-22T12:00:55Z jcowan: oni-on-ion: ^^
2018-10-22T12:01:30Z qu1j0t3: r7rs-avoid
2018-10-22T12:08:04Z pie_ joined #scheme
2018-10-22T12:10:24Z karlguy quit (Quit: Leaving)
2018-10-22T12:12:46Z xkapastel joined #scheme
2018-10-22T12:14:12Z ngz joined #scheme
2018-10-22T12:20:53Z jao joined #scheme
2018-10-22T12:31:52Z logicmoo quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2018-10-22T12:40:38Z dmiles joined #scheme
2018-10-22T12:50:56Z groovy2shoes joined #scheme
2018-10-22T13:02:04Z erkin joined #scheme
2018-10-22T13:09:01Z cmaloney quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.2)
2018-10-22T13:09:22Z cmaloney joined #scheme
2018-10-22T13:24:11Z klovett quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2018-10-22T13:24:29Z klovett joined #scheme
2018-10-22T13:31:13Z DGASAU quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2018-10-22T13:34:03Z Zenton joined #scheme
2018-10-22T13:38:10Z DGASAU joined #scheme
2018-10-22T13:49:44Z badkins joined #scheme
2018-10-22T13:52:04Z badkins_ joined #scheme
2018-10-22T13:54:21Z badkins quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2018-10-22T13:59:21Z alezost joined #scheme
2018-10-22T14:12:03Z smazga joined #scheme
2018-10-22T14:18:08Z badkins_ is now known as badkins
2018-10-22T14:20:05Z dbmikus_ joined #scheme
2018-10-22T14:25:09Z jcowan: qu1j0t3: Oh please.
2018-10-22T14:26:09Z jcowan: Not everything on the agenda is something I personally support.  I don't even necessarily support all the stuff I will be writing SRFIs for (faute de mieux)
2018-10-22T14:42:20Z pjb joined #scheme
2018-10-22T14:43:24Z qu1j0t3 kids
2018-10-22T14:47:17Z jcowan chuckles
2018-10-22T14:50:44Z qu1j0t3: i dunno man, i just feel like a coffee. work stuff is irksome.
2018-10-22T14:53:13Z jcowan: That's funny, you don't *look* like a coffee.
2018-10-22T14:55:17Z gnomon: *rimshot*
2018-10-22T14:56:49Z qu1j0t3: on the other hand, pretty sure gnomon is 97% coffee at this point
2018-10-22T14:59:52Z alezost quit (Quit: I live in GuixSD <http://www.gnu.org/s/guix> and Emacs <http://www.gnu.org/s/emacs>)
2018-10-22T15:01:41Z jcowan: well, I am perhaps 10% modafinil now'
2018-10-22T15:02:50Z oni-on-ion: jcowan: 'that link has no power here'
2018-10-22T15:03:11Z cortisol quit (Quit: Lost terminal)
2018-10-22T15:03:28Z jcowan: oni-on-ion: Strange, works for me
2018-10-22T15:04:02Z dbmikus__ joined #scheme
2018-10-22T15:04:21Z oni-on-ion: says '..or return to your dashboard' then i assume its a private thing
2018-10-22T15:05:18Z jcowan: no, it's definitely a public repo
2018-10-22T15:05:48Z qu1j0t3: i've heard some whispers about github glitches today
2018-10-22T15:05:54Z qu1j0t3: maybe in this channel
2018-10-22T15:06:09Z qu1j0t3: hm, no, must have been elsewhere
2018-10-22T15:06:19Z dbmikus_ quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
2018-10-22T15:07:24Z jcowan: Github, yes.  Bitbucket, no.
2018-10-22T15:07:32Z jcowan: I logged out and the link still works
2018-10-22T15:08:01Z qu1j0t3: oh, right. oops
2018-10-22T15:08:05Z qu1j0t3: the coffee clearly isn't working
2018-10-22T15:08:27Z oni-on-ion: 'dashboard' is often found together with 'admin panel/section'
2018-10-22T15:08:52Z oni-on-ion: dont recall any cases when confronted with a 'dashboard' being anonymous or not logged in
2018-10-22T15:09:10Z oni-on-ion follows buzzword pattern
2018-10-22T15:10:47Z oni-on-ion ultra sensitive to input lag
2018-10-22T15:11:00Z oni-on-ion: oops wrong channel that last one. disregard
2018-10-22T15:18:12Z gnomon: qu1j0t3, all green tea this morning, no coffee yet.  I'm working from home with a significant case of the sniffles.  (Only sniffles, thankfully, nothing more.)
2018-10-22T15:18:59Z gnomon: qu1j0t3, there was a significant github service quality degradation starting around 1915h Sunday night, with the UI going out of synch with the underlying git repos.
2018-10-22T15:19:22Z gnomon: I don't have an incident number for you, unfortunately, but: https://status.github.com/messages
2018-10-22T15:20:09Z gnomon: Aha: https://blog.github.com/2018-10-21-october21-incident-report/
2018-10-22T15:26:34Z thevishy joined #scheme
2018-10-22T15:28:59Z robotoad joined #scheme
2018-10-22T15:36:42Z klovett quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2018-10-22T15:37:29Z klovett joined #scheme
2018-10-22T15:41:57Z klovett quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2018-10-22T15:51:00Z badkins_ joined #scheme
2018-10-22T15:51:04Z badkins quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2018-10-22T15:54:32Z Riastradh: jcowan: You're going to adopt Racket semantics for keywords, right?
2018-10-22T15:55:32Z Riastradh: (Don't care much about syntax except that I think #: is kinda hideous but whatever; choosing Racket semantics over CL/DSSSL semantics is the important part.)
2018-10-22T15:58:44Z ecraven: may I second that opinion in both parts ;)
2018-10-22T15:58:50Z Inline joined #scheme
2018-10-22T15:59:33Z gwatt: racket and guile both use #: for keywords. No idea what others use
2018-10-22T15:59:41Z Inline quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2018-10-22T16:00:09Z Riastradh: jcowan: Minor correction to the page: MIT Scheme does support keyword syntax (but not integrated into anything like lambda), and lets you choose between prefix or suffix style by a `-*- keyword-style: prefix/suffix -*-' comment attribute in the file.
2018-10-22T16:00:12Z ecraven: I'd be much happier with plain :, but that's not a good choice for the obvious reasons
2018-10-22T16:00:12Z Inline joined #scheme
2018-10-22T16:01:59Z thevishy quit (Quit: thevishy)
2018-10-22T16:06:56Z civodul quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2018-10-22T16:07:58Z civodul joined #scheme
2018-10-22T16:09:33Z ecraven: are there plans to add keywords to case-lambda?
2018-10-22T16:09:45Z Riastradh: That sounds like a recipe for disaster...
2018-10-22T16:10:12Z ecraven: I'm not sure yet :D I've found myself using case-lambda a lot recently... though that might change
2018-10-22T16:10:23Z ecraven: if I had optional keyword arguments with default values
2018-10-22T16:10:28Z oni-on-ion: keywords being singleton symbols, feels like symbols are misused or underused or something
2018-10-22T16:15:17Z jcowan: arcfide actually has a nice design for completely portable lambda keywords,
2018-10-22T16:15:26Z jcowan: but (a) you have to export them from libraries (which is not so bad)
2018-10-22T16:15:40Z jcowan: and (b) you have to import any given keyword from one and only one library (which is very, very bad)
2018-10-22T16:17:23Z jcowan: https://bitbucket.org/cowan/r7rs-wg1-infra/src/default/KeywordArgumentsArcfide.md
2018-10-22T16:18:05Z jcowan: but otherwise it's beautiful: no reader hacks, no lambda hacks
2018-10-22T16:18:38Z jcowan: no eval hacks
2018-10-22T16:19:19Z ecraven: jcowan: keyword arguments not provided default to #f?
2018-10-22T16:19:39Z Riastradh: Does it conflate positional and named arguments?  If so, I don't like it!
2018-10-22T16:20:16Z rain2: racket uses #:foo for keyword symbols, im not sure how it's different to 'foo though
2018-10-22T16:20:26Z ecraven: conflate as in "you can mix them" as opposed to "keyword arguments must come after all positional ones"?
2018-10-22T16:21:25Z Riastradh: ecraven: Consider (f x y z).  In Racket, this call is guaranteed never to pass named arguments.
2018-10-22T16:21:48Z Riastradh: ecraven: Consider (f #:x y).  In Racket, this is guaranteed to pass one named argument, never two positional arguments.
2018-10-22T16:22:06Z Riastradh: In Common Lisp, DSSSL, &c., you have no such guarantees.
2018-10-22T16:22:08Z ecraven: Riastradh: is there a way to do something like (apply f (list a b c)) in racket, where b is bound to #:x?
2018-10-22T16:22:24Z ecraven: or do you have to have a literal #:x in the source whenever you want that?
2018-10-22T16:22:25Z Riastradh: ecraven: Yes, but it's spelled keyword-apply rather than apply and it has an extra argument for the named arguments.
2018-10-22T16:22:40Z Riastradh: I.e., positional and named arguments are passed by an independent mechanism
2018-10-22T16:22:40Z ecraven: ok. tradeoffs.. thanks for elucidating
2018-10-22T16:22:40Z Riastradh: .
2018-10-22T16:22:57Z ecraven: I wish this were a simpler problem :P
2018-10-22T16:22:58Z Riastradh: One way to think about it is as if positional arguments were just named arguments implicitly labelled by their position: (f #:0 x #:1 y #:2 z).
2018-10-22T16:23:30Z ecraven: well, from a usage point of view, I'd probably mostly prefer apply and keyword-apply to not be distinct functions
2018-10-22T16:24:05Z rain2: what do you think about getting rid of var-args?
2018-10-22T16:24:32Z rain2: (then apply doesn't need to exist)
2018-10-22T16:24:39Z ecraven: I use it all the time, for things like map, how would you solve that? always pass a list of lists?
2018-10-22T16:24:51Z wasamasa: it's no fun to print stuff that way
2018-10-22T16:25:03Z rain2: yeah any var args function could be replaced with one taking lists
2018-10-22T16:25:10Z wasamasa: but yeah, I know of a lisp doing this
2018-10-22T16:25:19Z rain2: maybe it's too drastic a change but i was curious what other think abuot it
2018-10-22T16:25:25Z wasamasa: one of the worse implementations out there
2018-10-22T16:25:26Z ecraven: rain2: then you need to cons everything into lists
2018-10-22T16:25:39Z wasamasa: and so does rain2 :>
2018-10-22T16:26:00Z ecraven: I'd love to have all three, optional, keyword, and varargs... but I haven't seen any perfect combination of them so far :-/ maybe there cannot be one
2018-10-22T16:27:02Z gwatt: jcowan: what's with the bars in arcfide's keyword library? They make chez incredibly unhappy
2018-10-22T16:27:09Z rain2: I think it can work if you just make optionals be keyword args
2018-10-22T16:27:24Z Riastradh: ecraven: If positional arguments are independent of named arguments, it's easy.
2018-10-22T16:27:40Z rain2: could named arguments be done using dynamic variables?
2018-10-22T16:27:43Z Riastradh: ecraven: In Racket it doesn't even matter where the named arguments go:  (f #:x y z) works the same as (f y z #:x).
2018-10-22T16:27:46Z Riastradh: er
2018-10-22T16:27:54Z Riastradh: (f #:x y z) works the same as (f z #:x y)
2018-10-22T16:27:58Z wasamasa: rain2: that's no good once you go higher order
2018-10-22T16:28:01Z ecraven: Riastradh: sometimes, I wonder whether smalltalk got it right all along, with mostly named arguments, not so many positional ones
2018-10-22T16:28:25Z wasamasa: rain2: in elisp, dynamic binding and lexical closures don't interact too well
2018-10-22T16:29:07Z ecraven: Riastradh: (let ((x #:x)) (foo x y))   will be two positional parameters, no keyword, right?
2018-10-22T16:29:23Z ecraven: gwatt: those look like syntax errors, might be related to some problem with confluence here?
2018-10-22T16:29:26Z Riastradh: ecraven: Probably yes, if that's valid.
2018-10-22T16:29:34Z Riastradh: (May need to say (let ((x '#:x)) ...).)
2018-10-22T16:30:14Z ecraven: I can't think of a case where I'd *need* that kind of thing right now, but it seems like something that could be useful.. then you'd have to use keyword-apply
2018-10-22T16:30:16Z gwatt: ecraven: maybe. There are too many brackets every time a bar is present, which looks intentional to me
2018-10-22T16:30:33Z Riastradh: ecraven: It is an obscure enough case that you shouldn't be optimizing for it!
2018-10-22T16:30:51Z ecraven: Riastradh: is it? that's what I'm not sure about ;)
2018-10-22T16:31:08Z rain2: so what's the deal about #:foo ?
2018-10-22T16:32:15Z rain2: I guess part is just that (f z 'x y) coincides with passing a quoted value
2018-10-22T16:33:21Z wasamasa: in CHICKEN you can configure to use :foo or foo:
2018-10-22T16:33:36Z wasamasa: #:foo is the generic solution that will always be recognized as keyword, regardless of said setting
2018-10-22T16:43:56Z gwatt: jcowan: I think there are problems with arcfide's keyword proposal beyond requiring that all instances of a given keyword resolve to the same definition site.
2018-10-22T16:57:27Z jao quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2018-10-22T17:00:05Z civodul quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 26.1))
2018-10-22T17:00:53Z jao joined #scheme
2018-10-22T17:01:28Z hugh_marera joined #scheme
2018-10-22T17:06:20Z aeth: The problem with Racket style is that #:foo is ugly. The problem with CL style is it's not uncommon to see (foo :foo :bar :baz :quux) where that could be 1, 2, or 4 arguments
2018-10-22T17:06:51Z aeth: (The latter isn't that bad, though, if it's multi-line or you use SLIME.)
2018-10-22T17:07:18Z rain2: i agree that's it's kinda ugly. but on the positive side I like the approach of #B____ syntax for special extra things
2018-10-22T17:07:36Z rain2: it's very uniform
2018-10-22T17:08:01Z rain2: #\space for characters, #' for syntax quote, #/---/ for regexs
2018-10-22T17:08:34Z rain2: clojure uses :quux for keywords doesn't it?
2018-10-22T17:08:36Z aeth: s/1, 2, or 4/2, 3, or 4/
2018-10-22T17:08:58Z aeth: rain2: Clojure and Arc do what is concise, not what is right
2018-10-22T17:09:24Z aeth: Clojure will even remove hypens from certain things
2018-10-22T17:09:53Z rain2: yep
2018-10-22T17:11:05Z aeth: Clojure will have ugly things if they're common. CL has ugly things if they're old. Scheme is uniformly in favor of having readable things even if they're a bit longer to type. (Sometimes Scheme goes too far... imo with vector/etc. sequence stuff)
2018-10-22T17:11:55Z aeth: define vs. defun vs. defn vs. def vs. de vs. d (and I'm sure there's a niche Lisp with all of those)
2018-10-22T17:12:11Z rain2: hahaha
2018-10-22T17:12:24Z aeth: A Scheme-style Lisp-2 would happily use define-function
2018-10-22T17:12:38Z aeth: (and define-variable)
2018-10-22T17:15:04Z rain2: i never understood the appeal of lisp-2
2018-10-22T17:16:16Z aeth: (1) Non-hygenic macros are easier and (2) you can create something of type foo with a variable of name foo by calling a function called foo
2018-10-22T17:16:26Z Riastradh: aeth: You can have Racket _semantics_ with whatever notation you like, #:foo or :foo or foo: or @!&#^&foo.
2018-10-22T17:16:44Z rain2:  @!&#^&foo lol
2018-10-22T17:17:05Z aeth: (a Lisp-2 has more than 2, and types are another... I'd go Lisp-n in a statically typed Lisp because of the no type name clash thing)
2018-10-22T17:19:50Z aeth: In CL style, everything of type foo should have a make-foo and optionally might have a shorter function foo. e.g. #'make-list and #'list
2018-10-22T17:20:16Z aeth: You could do this in Scheme but then that makes the procedure name unavailable as a variable
2018-10-22T17:20:29Z rain2: hmm
2018-10-22T17:20:44Z rain2: cons, list, vector <- are all constructed using their name
2018-10-22T17:20:56Z rain2: and records too
2018-10-22T17:24:07Z aeth: rain2: If CL was consistent, there would be a function for every important core type, including #'integer and #'number and #'single-float
2018-10-22T17:24:24Z aeth: Most of them are just reserved so you can't even use them if you wanted
2018-10-22T17:24:56Z aeth: In Scheme you could make the argument that that's a bad idea because of the Lisp-1ness of it
2018-10-22T17:26:01Z aeth: I suppose they're unnecessary in CL because of #'coerce but that's verbose and doesn't do everything.
2018-10-22T17:27:15Z aeth: You also can't make a macro that assumes every simple type has a #'foo and a #'make-foo if there's no #'make-integer
2018-10-22T17:27:22Z rain2: but what would those functions take as input?
2018-10-22T17:27:37Z edw` joined #scheme
2018-10-22T17:28:20Z jcowan: in Harlan, MFTL, all arguments are keyword arguments, except that if you use the mildly magic keywords (left and) right, you can call the procedure as a binary / unary operator.
2018-10-22T17:28:22Z aeth: rain2: The easiest thing to do would just to make them e.g. convert any number to a single-float
2018-10-22T17:28:49Z jcowan: I think CL has 12 namespaces
2018-10-22T17:29:22Z oni-on-ion: ehhh. wait wait, in scheme it is #t and #f ??
2018-10-22T17:29:25Z aeth: make-integer could return 0 by default and only use optional/keyword args so you could use make-foo where foo is a number somewhat dynamically
2018-10-22T17:29:49Z aeth: The default value of an array of type foo could be the default return value of make-foo
2018-10-22T17:29:57Z aeth: For numbers, their version of 0
2018-10-22T17:30:02Z jcowan: make- makes little sense for anything that is not composite
2018-10-22T17:30:08Z oni-on-ion: honestly those hyphens could do it all themselves. (f :x 0 :y 1.1 :z 30) => (f-x-y-z 0 1.1 30)
2018-10-22T17:30:20Z oni-on-ion: keyword args >_<
2018-10-22T17:30:23Z rain2: oni-on-ion:  that's kind of how objective c works
2018-10-22T17:30:27Z gwatt is having  objective c flashbacks
2018-10-22T17:30:31Z rain2: yeah
2018-10-22T17:30:35Z oni-on-ion: rain2: i know =) i really like objective-c
2018-10-22T17:30:37Z rain2: i think objc way works great
2018-10-22T17:30:47Z rain2: but i don't know if we can integrate that into scheme in any reasonable way\
2018-10-22T17:30:56Z jcowan: one advantage of keywords is you can omit or even reorder them, which is not true in Smalltalk unless preprogrammed
2018-10-22T17:31:03Z jcowan: (by hand, no macros)
2018-10-22T17:31:03Z edw quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2018-10-22T17:31:05Z gwatt: It's 100% clear, but also makes function calls about 10x longer than they need to be
2018-10-22T17:31:12Z oni-on-ion: yeah =) if colon was on the other side, i would be alright with it i think. but i am also learning hebrew, which uses colons at the END of sentences for periods -- which is right to left. so....
2018-10-22T17:31:20Z oni-on-ion: gwatt: but optional =)
2018-10-22T17:31:43Z gwatt: I was talking about objective-c, which doesn't have optional arguments
2018-10-22T17:31:48Z oni-on-ion: rain2: the obj-c way was not exactly optional, though. so i think the names of functions , treating hyphens as special, would be ok.
2018-10-22T17:32:05Z oni-on-ion: gwatt: ah, i thought you meant the f-x-y-z scheme idea
2018-10-22T17:32:06Z jcowan: the ship for treating hyphens as magic has sailed
2018-10-22T17:32:18Z oni-on-ion: jcowan =( yyythoo
2018-10-22T17:32:28Z edw` quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2018-10-22T17:32:43Z rain2: i don't think i want hyphens to be magick
2018-10-22T17:32:46Z gwatt: jcowan: how many magic characters are there? I can only think of #
2018-10-22T17:32:49Z rain2: but it's an interesting discussion
2018-10-22T17:32:55Z oni-on-ion: how about (f:x:y:z 1 2 3)
2018-10-22T17:33:09Z rain2: tbh i think one of the  main things stopping scheme from being used is the lack of a[i] array indices
2018-10-22T17:33:19Z oni-on-ion: and in this way, the compiler/reader can make a new function for fun currying and composition
2018-10-22T17:33:35Z darveter joined #scheme
2018-10-22T17:34:02Z oni-on-ion: ie. f:x:y:z -> (lambda (x y z) (f :x x :y y :z z))
2018-10-22T17:34:08Z jcowan: No Lisp with magic syntax has done anything but fail miserably, even with the full weight of Apple Computers behind it
2018-10-22T17:34:37Z aeth: jcowan: Clearly, the solution is to get Microsoft to write one
2018-10-22T17:34:42Z oni-on-ion: jcowan: that is not at all helpful. so people died visiting italy - should people never vacation there? this is a constructive brainstorm =)
2018-10-22T17:34:58Z oni-on-ion: also, a-waiting clarification on the sailing of magic busses
2018-10-22T17:35:05Z jcowan: Oh, I like thinking about them too
2018-10-22T17:36:07Z Zenton quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2018-10-22T17:36:19Z oni-on-ion: if at least it were trivial or possible to set them up for my own personal use , seems like a 1:1 translation from 'function names' in car position expanding to keyword args in all-over-the-args positions
2018-10-22T17:37:08Z aeth: jcowan: I'd like some function that returns the default value of a thing, though. e.g. (integer) returns 0, (integer 4) returns 4, (integer 4 10) returns 4, and (integer -10 -3) returns -3. So 0, x, or the closest value to 0 of the range a b
2018-10-22T17:37:35Z aeth: Then there's no magicness in 0 being the default for integers
2018-10-22T17:37:45Z jcowan: Interesting
2018-10-22T17:38:13Z aeth: Each thing would be different, but all numbers would do the 0, x, or closest to 0 in range thing
2018-10-22T17:38:18Z oni-on-ion: just use keyword arguments. solved!
2018-10-22T17:39:03Z oni-on-ion: but why would integer take multiple arguments
2018-10-22T17:39:22Z jcowan: it essentially types it to a range
2018-10-22T17:39:29Z oni-on-ion: ohh, type =)
2018-10-22T17:39:51Z jcowan: NetRexx is a strongly typed language which pretends to be weakly typed
2018-10-22T17:40:11Z aeth: oni-on-ion: I'm copying CL's integer type syntax here to give two values a meaning
2018-10-22T17:40:44Z jcowan: so if you write foo = 32, foo is dynamically typed (unless it has a type already) and assigned to be 32
2018-10-22T17:41:25Z jcowan: if you write foo = int 32 where int is the coercion to an integer,
2018-10-22T17:41:36Z oni-on-ion: oh, and this! (let:window:size (make-window:title "hello") (rect 2 4)) -> (let* ((size (rect 2 4)) (window (make-window :title "hello" :size size))) ... )
2018-10-22T17:41:43Z jcowan: it types foo as int (unless it has a type already) and assigns 32 to it
2018-10-22T17:42:02Z jcowan: finally, foo = int types foo as int without giving it a value
2018-10-22T17:43:34Z darveter left #scheme
2018-10-22T17:43:47Z aeth: jcowan: Oh one more thing about integer. (integer 4.0) would return 4 (it takes in a number in that case). Not sure about integer 4.4. Would it round? Maybe.
2018-10-22T17:44:47Z oni-on-ion: o_o i think my idea is slightly more sound than whatever is going on in speculation land here
2018-10-22T17:45:18Z aeth: oni-on-ion: I'm just proposing that every type have a constructor, not just ones like list.
2018-10-22T17:45:48Z aeth: (Technically in CL there are two constructors, a simpler foo and a more complicated make-foo, with the simpler foo being optional... And not consistently applied.)
2018-10-22T17:46:37Z oni-on-ion: ohh. if everything was a GLOOP/CLOS object then its fine. with keyword args of course.
2018-10-22T17:46:55Z oni-on-ion: sprinkle :initarg :initval :initform :initaccessor :inittype etc etc >_<
2018-10-22T17:48:20Z jcowan: aeth: Scheme does that too, but e.g. there is no make-* for immutables because it doesn't make sense.
2018-10-22T17:49:55Z jcowan: in ISLisp everything really is a class, but I don't think the generic function CREATE works on the built-in classes
2018-10-22T17:50:44Z jcowan: one of the annoyances of CLOS/ILOS is their inability to provide immutability and in the case of CLOS its heavy dependencies on SLOT-* operations
2018-10-22T17:50:54Z jcowan: you can preinitialize a struct but not a class
2018-10-22T17:52:29Z gwatt: aeth: you can sort of get that with (+) and (*). I know that's just the identity for those functions, but it's close
2018-10-22T18:07:34Z klovett joined #scheme
2018-10-22T18:30:35Z daviid joined #scheme
2018-10-22T18:32:39Z Zipheir quit (Quit: leaving)
2018-10-22T18:33:50Z johnjay joined #scheme
2018-10-22T18:38:50Z amz3: biwascheme was featured on repl.it as the second picture: https://repl.it/site/blog/a16z
2018-10-22T18:40:12Z amz3: seems like their building a way to code and deploy from the browser, IDK if scheme is supported outside the browser REPL
2018-10-22T18:43:44Z Zipheir joined #scheme
2018-10-22T18:44:13Z cortisol joined #scheme
2018-10-22T18:51:22Z Kkiro_ quit (*.net *.split)
2018-10-22T18:51:41Z zachk joined #scheme
2018-10-22T18:51:52Z Kkiro joined #scheme
2018-10-22T18:51:52Z Kkiro quit (Changing host)
2018-10-22T18:51:52Z Kkiro joined #scheme
2018-10-22T18:52:47Z zachk quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2018-10-22T18:53:13Z zachk joined #scheme
2018-10-22T18:53:43Z amz3: talking about procedure signature, in python 3, I like the single star argument in function definition to force the caller to use keyword arguments.
2018-10-22T19:00:22Z catonano joined #scheme
2018-10-22T19:07:30Z badkins_ is now known as badkins
2018-10-22T19:08:14Z zachk quit (Changing host)
2018-10-22T19:08:14Z zachk joined #scheme
2018-10-22T19:15:12Z Zipheir: Ugh, Python's calling conventions is a rats' nest.
2018-10-22T19:15:21Z Zipheir: s/is/are/
2018-10-22T19:16:48Z oni-on-ion: efficient for rats tho
2018-10-22T19:17:44Z Zipheir: IMHO, the problems that keyword arguments are used to solve are usually better handled with a single structured parameter.
2018-10-22T19:19:15Z Zipheir: Then you don't need magic symbols or complicated calling conventions, and procedures have clearly-defined types.
2018-10-22T19:19:40Z oni-on-ion: yea... also, currying and composition becomes practical
2018-10-22T19:19:51Z oni-on-ion: (or returns to practicality)
2018-10-22T19:21:46Z badkins quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2018-10-22T19:22:02Z Zipheir: Exactly.
2018-10-22T19:24:16Z Zenton joined #scheme
2018-10-22T19:30:05Z ski: i guess the argument is related to `values' vs. some other returned structure (like list,vector,record)
2018-10-22T19:31:25Z jcowan: Nicely, Scheme allows but does not require these to be distinct concepts
2018-10-22T19:31:53Z jcowan: in Chibi, a procedure that returns multiple values actually returns a list with a specified car that `values` knows to look for
2018-10-22T19:32:22Z Zipheir: Interesting.
2018-10-22T19:35:06Z ski: (similarly, i think `multi' could simply return some tagged data, while allowing a more efficient implementation amounting to selecting one of several alternative return paths)
2018-10-22T19:37:06Z civodul joined #scheme
2018-10-22T19:37:40Z muelleme joined #scheme
2018-10-22T19:41:59Z Zipheir: ski: More broadly, maybe the debate is between solving problems with values and solving problems with language features.
2018-10-22T19:42:17Z Zipheir: (not 'values', values :))
2018-10-22T19:44:33Z Zipheir: The values vs. 'values' war would be a good parable, in the tradition of Dr. Seuss' Butter Battle Book.
2018-10-22T19:45:03Z pjb quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2018-10-22T20:08:01Z pjb joined #scheme
2018-10-22T20:14:56Z niklasl2 quit (Quit: Nettalk6 - www.ntalk.de)
2018-10-22T20:15:05Z mejja joined #scheme
2018-10-22T20:15:19Z niklasl joined #scheme
2018-10-22T20:18:26Z ski: in all these cases, the argument against (first-class) values is that we have a particular stylized use in mind (construct on one side of abstraction boundary, deconstruct on the other side), and we'd like to handle this more efficiently, without having to try to analyze when we're in such a situation
2018-10-22T20:19:09Z catonano quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2018-10-22T20:19:37Z catonano joined #scheme
2018-10-22T20:19:47Z amz3: I stumbled on situation where I choosed to return multiple values instead of a list
2018-10-22T20:20:35Z ski: (then there's also the question of being able to forward. tail calls are probably related here, since they are about forwarding a continuation without eta-expanding it)
2018-10-22T20:21:16Z amz3: here is it https://framagit.org/a-guile-mind/guile-wiredtiger/blob/master/wiredtiger/wiredtiger.scm#L305
2018-10-22T20:21:23Z amz3: I do (apply values args)
2018-10-22T20:21:43Z ski: (perhaps not only more efficiently. perhaps also with slightly less syntactic clumsiness. encoding intent more than using an idiom)
2018-10-22T20:21:55Z amz3: that return value, is itself the return value of https://framagit.org/a-guile-mind/guile-wiredtiger/blob/master/wiredtiger/wiredtiger.scm#L320
2018-10-22T20:22:48Z amz3: the rational is that the called will need to "unpack" those values/list anyway, so better force it with 'values'
2018-10-22T20:22:57Z amz3: s/called/caller/
2018-10-22T20:23:35Z amz3: and it seems to me 'values' and 'call-with-values' is faster/more-efficient than 'list' + 'match'
2018-10-22T20:23:41Z amz3: I did not benchmark tho
2018-10-22T20:25:16Z gwatt: I think that depends on the implementation
2018-10-22T20:25:35Z ski: (come to think of it. by-name, and by-ref arguments (and result) are also instances of this general pattern)
2018-10-22T20:27:16Z edw joined #scheme
2018-10-22T20:27:18Z Zipheir: ski: Good points.
2018-10-22T20:27:38Z ski: amz3 : perhaps you shouldn't repeatedly `append' to the end of the list ?
2018-10-22T20:28:19Z Zipheir: ski: I'd argue that unless we're talking major gains in efficiency, first-class values should be preferred for simplicity's sake.
2018-10-22T20:28:20Z ski: Zipheir : perhaps one can phrase it as calling-convention vs. stylized call idiom
2018-10-22T20:29:08Z amz3: ski: nice catch! I will use a grow-the-stack loop
2018-10-22T20:29:17Z amz3: ski: since the number of item is small
2018-10-22T20:29:53Z ski: amz3 : just a knee-jerk reaction. it may not matter in your case
2018-10-22T20:31:15Z ggole quit (Quit: ggole)
2018-10-22T20:31:22Z ski: (s;is faster/more-efficient;may be faster/more-efficient;)
2018-10-22T20:32:25Z amz3: ski: it seems to me it more readable to not use a tail-call at this place
2018-10-22T20:33:27Z amz3: there was a discussion about named-let on #guile previously today, and it seems the advise was to use grow-the-stack kind of named-let if the number of items is small instead of doing 'reverse!' at the end.
2018-10-22T20:34:30Z amz3: yeah, I don't know why I coded that like that usually, I code a tail-call and then reverse! at the end
2018-10-22T20:35:41Z amz3: I keep saying news from other languages today, but I pratice php5 at $work, and it seems to me classes are not first class in php5
2018-10-22T20:36:10Z amz3: that is you can not pass a class as argument of a function.
2018-10-22T20:36:25Z badkins joined #scheme
2018-10-22T20:36:52Z Zipheir: Yeah, conventional wisdom is that tail-call+reverse to accumulate a list is not worth it.
2018-10-22T20:37:44Z amz3: tx
2018-10-22T20:37:46Z klovett_ joined #scheme
2018-10-22T20:38:00Z Zipheir: SRFI-1 includes append-reverse, but warns against it.
2018-10-22T20:39:13Z Zipheir: There was a long discussion in here a few weeks ago (can't remember who started it) about recursively consing up a list vs. a closure with mutation.
2018-10-22T20:40:22Z aeth: I think you have to do tail call + reverse if you have immutable conses, though?
2018-10-22T20:40:29Z Zipheir: And the whole question of to-reverse-or-not came up. IIRC straight up consing turned out to be most efficient, at least when compiled.
2018-10-22T20:41:09Z klovett quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2018-10-22T20:41:28Z ski: (fwiw, if it wasn't evident, my comment re `multi' above was related to "Multi-return function call" by Olin Shivers,David Fisher in 2004-09,2006-0[79] at <http://www.ccs.neu.edu/home/shivers/citations.html#mrlc>. also see e.g. <http://paste.lisp.org/display/29541#3> (there are (were ?) better pastes but i can't find them atm ?))
2018-10-22T20:42:06Z amz3: i was going to ask about multi
2018-10-22T20:42:24Z Zipheir: aeth: You might be able to transform your recursion to use an accumulating parameter, a la Wadler.
2018-10-22T20:43:30Z ski had a few pastes related to `multi' on <lpaste.net>, but it may be dead (?) now
2018-10-22T20:44:04Z Zipheir: ski: Yeah, what happened to lpaste? All the good pastebins seem to be dying.
2018-10-22T20:45:46Z ski: (if i were paranoid, ...)
2018-10-22T20:45:49Z ski: aeth : or non-tail recursion
2018-10-22T20:48:19Z Zipheir: Right, a tail-call might also just be the wrong approach.
2018-10-22T20:49:12Z Zipheir: (Maybe xkcd's responsible for giving everyone the idea that tail-recursion is always the answer in functional programming.)
2018-10-22T20:49:44Z amz3: hehe
2018-10-22T20:49:53Z amz3: sudomakemeascheme :]
2018-10-22T20:50:58Z Riastradh: Stack space is usually a scarcer resource than heap space, and the consequences of exhausting stack are usually direr than just running a GC cycle.
2018-10-22T20:52:23Z Zipheir: Indeed.
2018-10-22T20:55:41Z EternalZenith joined #scheme
2018-10-22T20:59:51Z ski was talking a little about TCMC/LCMC the other day, on another channel, re <http://paul.bone.id.au/2017/03/16/tail-recursion/>
2018-10-22T21:00:05Z Riastradh: Worth considering weighing the merit of today's microbenchmarking with the possible consequences of an unexpectedly large input and stack overflow next year.
2018-10-22T21:00:10Z ski: (there was also some talk about how it relates to generational GC)
2018-10-22T21:00:39Z ski: aeth : i'm not sure whether you'd consider TCMC to imply mutable conses or not
2018-10-22T21:04:28Z lambda-11235 joined #scheme
2018-10-22T21:09:01Z hugh_marera quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2018-10-22T21:09:21Z erkin quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2018-10-22T21:16:47Z johnjay quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2018-10-22T21:18:40Z pjb quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2018-10-22T21:18:47Z aeth: Zipheir: Anything that teaches Scheme shows you how to carefully structure your recursion to make it tail recursion (it's hard to get right without training)
2018-10-22T21:18:54Z aeth: Usually the first example is fib
2018-10-22T21:19:11Z aeth: or is it fact?
2018-10-22T21:19:15Z aeth: One of the two :-p
2018-10-22T21:21:42Z qu1j0t3: either work. SICP covers it.
2018-10-22T21:21:51Z EternalZenith quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2018-10-22T21:25:16Z lambda-11235 quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2018-10-22T21:25:58Z aeth: Yes, the question is which is done first in literally every introduction to Scheme. Maybe different introductions differ, though
2018-10-22T21:36:01Z zachk quit (Quit: Leaving)
2018-10-22T21:39:28Z Zipheir: In some cases it's pretty ugly, however.
2018-10-22T21:40:47Z catonano quit (Quit: catonano)
2018-10-22T21:42:30Z lambda-11235 joined #scheme
2018-10-22T21:42:40Z Zipheir: Rewriting all your recursive into tail recursions generally doesn't make things clearer. Unless there really is an efficiency gain to doing so, I'd call it a bad case of premature optimization.
2018-10-22T21:42:49Z Zipheir: s/recursive/& code/
2018-10-22T21:47:27Z Zipheir: (I thought everything had to be so transformed when I first learned Scheme, and created some hellacious programs before learning the error of my ways.)
2018-10-22T21:48:35Z rain2: http://www.club.cc.cmu.edu/~rharwood/tmp/random.pdf  this seems like an april fools joke
2018-10-22T21:48:39Z zachk joined #scheme
2018-10-22T21:49:34Z hugh_marera joined #scheme
2018-10-22T21:49:40Z zachk quit (Changing host)
2018-10-22T21:49:40Z zachk joined #scheme
2018-10-22T21:50:55Z Zipheir: rain2: Funny stuff :)
2018-10-22T21:52:47Z pjb joined #scheme
2018-10-22T21:52:56Z Zipheir: rain2: Including the copyright statement. "Permission is granted ... blah blah ... provide that copies are made or distributed for humor or deception and that copies notices this bear on the first page."
2018-10-22T21:53:24Z Zipheir: *that copies notice this bear on the first page.
2018-10-22T21:56:13Z ski: rain2 : well, it's SIGBOVIK
2018-10-22T21:56:18Z rain2: ahhh
2018-10-22T21:57:34Z ski: (otoh, i heard about "Locus Solum" that someone commented that they couldn't tell whether it was very deep, or an elaborate hoax, or possibly both)
2018-10-22T21:58:07Z hugh_marera quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2018-10-22T21:58:36Z lambda-11235 quit (Quit: Bye)
2018-10-22T22:01:00Z dbmikus__ quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.2)
2018-10-22T22:01:10Z hugh_marera joined #scheme
2018-10-22T22:03:46Z hugh_marera quit (Client Quit)
2018-10-22T22:04:43Z brettgilio joined #scheme
2018-10-22T22:04:44Z ski: (specifically "Locus Solum: From the rules of logic to the logic of rules" by Jean-Yves Girard in 2001 at <http://girard.perso.math.cnrs.fr/0.pdf>)
2018-10-22T22:06:32Z edw quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2018-10-22T22:08:57Z jcowan quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity)
2018-10-22T22:09:21Z brettgilio quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2018-10-22T22:09:58Z robotoad quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
2018-10-22T22:13:21Z robotoad joined #scheme
2018-10-22T22:15:06Z klovett joined #scheme
2018-10-22T22:17:57Z klovett_ quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2018-10-22T22:20:09Z muelleme quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2018-10-22T22:25:16Z pjb quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2018-10-22T22:28:06Z jcowan joined #scheme
2018-10-22T22:44:00Z pjb joined #scheme
2018-10-22T22:54:21Z robotoad quit (Quit: robotoad)
2018-10-22T22:54:41Z dmiles quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
2018-10-22T22:57:06Z EternalZenith joined #scheme
2018-10-22T23:01:06Z klovett_ joined #scheme
2018-10-22T23:03:45Z lritter joined #scheme
2018-10-22T23:04:52Z klovett quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2018-10-22T23:07:51Z edgar_ joined #scheme
2018-10-22T23:07:52Z edgar-rft quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2018-10-22T23:09:24Z rain2: https://stackoverflow.com/questions/52938872/how-to-define-exceptions-in-scheme-using-a-dynamic-variable-and-abortive-control here's my question about defining exceptions using dynamic variables
2018-10-22T23:09:24Z rudybot: http://teensy.info/yXypQUMYJq
2018-10-22T23:09:41Z smazga quit (Quit: leaving)
2018-10-22T23:11:01Z civodul quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2018-10-22T23:11:28Z pjb quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2018-10-22T23:11:40Z EternalZenith quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2018-10-22T23:16:35Z muelleme joined #scheme
2018-10-22T23:16:35Z edgar-rft joined #scheme
2018-10-22T23:16:44Z edgar_ quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2018-10-22T23:20:34Z edgar-rft quit (Client Quit)
2018-10-22T23:21:07Z muelleme quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2018-10-22T23:21:25Z edgar-rft joined #scheme
2018-10-22T23:26:27Z dmiles joined #scheme
2018-10-22T23:27:26Z pierpa joined #scheme
2018-10-22T23:27:39Z pie_ is now known as metapie_
2018-10-22T23:27:44Z metapie_ is now known as pie
2018-10-22T23:27:46Z pie is now known as pie_
2018-10-22T23:28:28Z EternalZenith joined #scheme
2018-10-22T23:32:30Z EternalZenith quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2018-10-22T23:34:26Z rain2: oh this is interesting
2018-10-22T23:34:38Z rain2: the reset of shift/reset may be thought of as setting a dynamic variable
2018-10-22T23:36:55Z DGASAU` joined #scheme
2018-10-22T23:38:28Z DGASAU quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2018-10-22T23:42:25Z EternalZenith joined #scheme
2018-10-22T23:53:39Z lavaflow_ is now known as lavaflow
2018-10-22T23:59:54Z ngz quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2018-10-23T00:04:03Z sethalves quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
2018-10-23T00:05:11Z sethalves joined #scheme
2018-10-23T00:05:32Z EternalZenith quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2018-10-23T00:32:15Z johnjay joined #scheme
2018-10-23T00:34:50Z EternalZenith joined #scheme
2018-10-23T00:35:00Z zachk quit (Quit: Leaving)
2018-10-23T00:41:42Z klovett joined #scheme
2018-10-23T00:43:58Z TheGreekOwl joined #scheme
2018-10-23T00:45:21Z klovett_ quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2018-10-23T00:46:44Z mejja quit (Quit: mejja)
2018-10-23T00:53:47Z niklasl quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2018-10-23T00:56:18Z EternalZenith quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2018-10-23T01:06:32Z robotoad joined #scheme
2018-10-23T01:07:01Z amz3 quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2018-10-23T01:07:47Z robotoad quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2018-10-23T01:08:13Z amz3 joined #scheme
2018-10-23T01:08:16Z robotoad joined #scheme
2018-10-23T01:36:40Z lritter quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2018-10-23T01:37:05Z lritter joined #scheme
2018-10-23T01:45:01Z jp quit (Quit: https://ptpb.pw/~docrivers.gif)
2018-10-23T02:05:58Z robotoad quit (Quit: robotoad)
2018-10-23T02:15:18Z robotoad joined #scheme
2018-10-23T02:20:52Z nckx quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2018-10-23T02:21:15Z nckx joined #scheme
2018-10-23T02:25:52Z jao quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2018-10-23T02:36:17Z klovett quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2018-10-23T02:37:02Z klovett joined #scheme
2018-10-23T02:50:17Z klovett quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
2018-10-23T02:55:09Z dbmikus joined #scheme
2018-10-23T02:58:20Z klovett joined #scheme
2018-10-23T02:58:30Z linack joined #scheme
2018-10-23T03:00:12Z klovett quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2018-10-23T03:10:28Z klovett joined #scheme
2018-10-23T03:11:39Z dbmikus quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.3)
2018-10-23T03:12:48Z dbmikus joined #scheme
2018-10-23T03:15:09Z klovett quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2018-10-23T03:32:40Z jp joined #scheme
2018-10-23T03:35:21Z dbmikus quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.3)
2018-10-23T03:35:43Z dbmikus joined #scheme
2018-10-23T03:35:58Z dbmikus quit (Client Quit)
2018-10-23T03:37:17Z dbmikus joined #scheme
2018-10-23T03:41:42Z pierpa quit (Quit: Page closed)
2018-10-23T03:43:17Z Zipheir quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2018-10-23T03:43:59Z klovett joined #scheme
2018-10-23T03:58:00Z klovett quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2018-10-23T03:58:22Z klovett joined #scheme
2018-10-23T04:03:40Z klovett quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2018-10-23T04:10:48Z catonano joined #scheme
2018-10-23T04:46:24Z Inline quit (Quit: Leaving)
2018-10-23T05:05:22Z catonano quit (Quit: catonano)
2018-10-23T05:08:27Z TheGreekOwl quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2018-10-23T05:19:18Z muelleme joined #scheme
2018-10-23T05:23:44Z muelleme quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
2018-10-23T05:28:15Z linack quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2018-10-23T05:48:09Z pierpal joined #scheme
2018-10-23T05:48:35Z pierpal quit (Client Quit)
2018-10-23T05:51:54Z pierpal joined #scheme
2018-10-23T06:13:13Z robotoad quit (Quit: robotoad)
2018-10-23T06:14:45Z pierpal quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2018-10-23T06:18:29Z muelleme joined #scheme
2018-10-23T06:26:08Z muelleme quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2018-10-23T06:26:39Z pierpal joined #scheme
2018-10-23T07:12:46Z pierpal quit (Quit: Poof)
2018-10-23T07:13:04Z pierpal joined #scheme
2018-10-23T07:21:35Z xkapastel quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity)
2018-10-23T07:21:52Z muelleme joined #scheme
2018-10-23T07:26:42Z muelleme quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
2018-10-23T07:30:39Z skapata quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2018-10-23T07:35:41Z TheGreekOwl joined #scheme
2018-10-23T07:39:51Z civodul joined #scheme
2018-10-23T07:40:20Z TheGreekOwl quit (Client Quit)
2018-10-23T07:41:46Z jp quit (Quit: https://ptpb.pw/~docrivers.gif)
2018-10-23T07:45:06Z pierpal quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2018-10-23T07:47:28Z InverseRhombus quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2018-10-23T07:52:53Z ngz joined #scheme
2018-10-23T07:56:28Z daviid quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2018-10-23T08:05:59Z jp joined #scheme
2018-10-23T08:08:57Z jcowan quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity)
2018-10-23T08:13:59Z InverseRhombus joined #scheme
2018-10-23T08:33:30Z dpk quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2018-10-23T08:40:09Z dpk joined #scheme
2018-10-23T08:56:33Z redeemed joined #scheme
2018-10-23T09:18:35Z muelleme joined #scheme
2018-10-23T09:25:16Z muelleme quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2018-10-23T09:26:04Z ngz quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2018-10-23T09:46:29Z johnjay quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2018-10-23T09:49:32Z InverseRhombus quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2018-10-23T10:25:23Z ggole joined #scheme
2018-10-23T10:31:20Z razzy left #scheme
2018-10-23T10:33:58Z longshi joined #scheme
2018-10-23T10:38:09Z pierpal joined #scheme
2018-10-23T10:40:02Z remix2000 joined #scheme
2018-10-23T10:44:51Z pierpal quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2018-10-23T10:51:57Z catonano_ joined #scheme
2018-10-23T11:07:12Z niklasl joined #scheme
2018-10-23T11:12:22Z InverseRhombus joined #scheme
2018-10-23T11:30:01Z wigust joined #scheme
2018-10-23T11:31:36Z wigust- quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2018-10-23T11:32:19Z jcowan joined #scheme
2018-10-23T11:34:56Z catonano_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2018-10-23T11:35:24Z catonano_ joined #scheme
2018-10-23T11:35:25Z DGASAU` quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 26.1))
2018-10-23T11:35:49Z DGASAU joined #scheme
2018-10-23T11:50:23Z longshi quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.2)
2018-10-23T12:25:07Z ngz joined #scheme
2018-10-23T12:25:44Z quipa joined #scheme
2018-10-23T12:27:36Z quipa quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2018-10-23T12:32:29Z jao joined #scheme
2018-10-23T12:48:12Z xkapastel joined #scheme
2018-10-23T13:13:07Z skapata joined #scheme
2018-10-23T13:14:58Z TheGreekOwl joined #scheme
2018-10-23T13:28:41Z dbmikus quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.3)
2018-10-23T13:29:13Z rain2: where could i find a formal treatment of lambda calculus plus dynamic scope?
2018-10-23T13:32:44Z ecraven: maybe this book has some: https://www.amazon.com/Calculus-Semantics-Studies-Foundations-Mathematics/dp/0444875085
2018-10-23T13:33:11Z ggole: https://www.stephanboyer.com/post/124/formalizing-dynamic-scoping
2018-10-23T13:37:07Z catonano_ quit (Quit: catonano_)
2018-10-23T13:37:50Z catonano_ joined #scheme
2018-10-23T13:38:34Z klovett joined #scheme
2018-10-23T13:41:16Z ngz quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2018-10-23T13:42:31Z rain2: dont think so
2018-10-23T13:44:17Z lockywolf_ joined #scheme
2018-10-23T13:50:48Z dbmikus joined #scheme
2018-10-23T13:58:10Z dbmikus quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.2)
2018-10-23T13:58:35Z dbmikus joined #scheme
2018-10-23T14:00:30Z dbmikus quit (Client Quit)
2018-10-23T14:01:52Z lockywolf_ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2018-10-23T14:05:30Z alezost joined #scheme
2018-10-23T14:07:13Z dbmikus joined #scheme
2018-10-23T14:11:29Z edw joined #scheme
2018-10-23T14:11:43Z catonano_ quit (Quit: catonano_)
2018-10-23T14:17:55Z edw quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2018-10-23T14:21:41Z daviid joined #scheme
2018-10-23T14:37:30Z dbmikus quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2018-10-23T14:38:52Z ravndal quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2018-10-23T14:39:45Z dbmikus__ joined #scheme
2018-10-23T14:41:09Z ravndal joined #scheme
2018-10-23T14:56:07Z lritter quit (Quit: Leaving)
2018-10-23T14:59:22Z smazga joined #scheme
2018-10-23T15:10:50Z redeemed quit (Quit: q)
2018-10-23T15:15:20Z edgar-rft quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2018-10-23T15:18:43Z alezost quit (Quit: I live in GuixSD <http://www.gnu.org/s/guix> and Emacs <http://www.gnu.org/s/emacs>)
2018-10-23T15:27:06Z jcowan: that's a damned good article, and doesn't presume you already know Greek
2018-10-23T15:30:29Z catonano joined #scheme
2018-10-23T15:31:21Z Inline joined #scheme
2018-10-23T15:31:32Z robotoad joined #scheme
2018-10-23T15:45:47Z zmt00 joined #scheme
2018-10-23T15:47:53Z DGASAU quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2018-10-23T15:48:28Z jao quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2018-10-23T15:49:13Z jao joined #scheme
2018-10-23T15:52:59Z DGASAU joined #scheme
2018-10-23T16:00:25Z acarrico joined #scheme
2018-10-23T16:01:16Z dbmikus__ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2018-10-23T16:05:38Z erkin joined #scheme
2018-10-23T16:08:25Z jp quit (Quit: https://ptpb.pw/~docrivers.gif)
2018-10-23T16:10:04Z dbmikus__ joined #scheme
2018-10-23T16:12:06Z remix2000 quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.2-dev)
2018-10-23T16:12:10Z Riastradh: rain2: You might find it easier to make a dynamic variable for the _stack_ of handlers, and then have (raise x) do (for-each (lambda (h) (h x)) (current-handler-stack)).
2018-10-23T16:12:39Z Riastradh: rain2: Or perhaps, rather, (for-each-pair (h) (parametrize ((current-handler-stack (cdr h))) ((car h) x))) (current-handler-stack)).
2018-10-23T16:12:48Z Riastradh: (also no need for a macro for `raise')
2018-10-23T16:25:50Z catonano quit (Quit: catonano)
2018-10-23T16:26:33Z jp joined #scheme
2018-10-23T16:27:20Z DGASAU` joined #scheme
2018-10-23T16:27:39Z DGASAU quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
2018-10-23T16:28:46Z rain2: thanks
2018-10-23T16:28:53Z rain2: i'll try using a stack
2018-10-23T16:29:35Z jp quit (Quit: https://ptpb.pw/~docrivers.gif)
2018-10-23T16:35:58Z muelleme joined #scheme
2018-10-23T16:39:14Z rain2: i couldn't make it work but I'll keep thinking about the stack idea!
2018-10-23T16:39:32Z DGASAU` quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 26.1))
2018-10-23T16:39:38Z rain2: dynamic binding is a bit tricky to work with because dlet x = \m. __HERE___ in ..
2018-10-23T16:39:47Z rain2: x is recursive/knot tied inside __HERE__
2018-10-23T16:39:56Z DGASAU joined #scheme
2018-10-23T16:40:28Z muelleme quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2018-10-23T16:43:19Z siraben: What are some really small but R5RS compliant Scheme interpreters?
2018-10-23T16:43:48Z siraben: I'm trying to find a good one for Termux on Android.
2018-10-23T16:44:23Z InverseRhombus quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2018-10-23T16:45:41Z daviid: siraben: on android, i'd definitely use kawa
2018-10-23T16:45:48Z ggole quit (Quit: ggole)
2018-10-23T16:46:40Z siraben: Do I compile it from source?
2018-10-23T16:47:46Z daviid: siraben: I can't tell I only used kawa on GNU/Linux, but it's in the manual, I think, otherwise ask on #kawa and their mailing list, they answer within seconds :)
2018-10-23T16:49:34Z siraben: What makes you recommend kawa?
2018-10-23T16:52:38Z daviid: it's the best, imo, if you have the constraint to compile to java, and extremely well maintained, it's GNU ... I don't know any that comes even close to it
2018-10-23T16:55:50Z pjb joined #scheme
2018-10-23T16:59:01Z gwatt: siraben: tinyscheme appears to be in the termux package repo
2018-10-23T16:59:22Z civodul quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 26.1))
2018-10-23T17:00:14Z klovett_ joined #scheme
2018-10-23T17:03:48Z klovett quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2018-10-23T17:06:21Z jp joined #scheme
2018-10-23T17:32:44Z smazga quit (Quit: leaving)
2018-10-23T17:34:02Z robotoad_ joined #scheme
2018-10-23T17:34:03Z robotoad quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2018-10-23T17:48:30Z jcowan: chibi is faster and richer than tinyscheme, though not quite as small (unless you conditionalize out some of the features)
2018-10-23T17:48:52Z jcowan: you need not compile kawa from source, just convert the jar file
2018-10-23T17:49:23Z wasamasa: convert?
2018-10-23T17:53:30Z edgar-rft joined #scheme
2018-10-23T18:02:45Z muelleme joined #scheme
2018-10-23T18:07:07Z muelleme quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2018-10-23T18:07:47Z zmt01 joined #scheme
2018-10-23T18:08:23Z daviid: I'm prety sure it's all explained in the manual ...
2018-10-23T18:09:10Z daviid: there are kawa users developing complete apps and games for android usig kawa ...
2018-10-23T18:10:16Z zmt00 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2018-10-23T18:11:20Z daviid: the #kawa channel is dead slow though, one msg every 10y ot so :), but the mainling list is (slow by number) the fatest I ever used: its maintainer solves bugs at the speed of light
2018-10-23T18:26:26Z nilg joined #scheme
2018-10-23T18:33:10Z klovett joined #scheme
2018-10-23T18:36:27Z klovett_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2018-10-23T18:41:14Z ecraven: I've written simple apps in kawa, it's a joy to use (as much as anything based on Java can be)
2018-10-23T18:47:43Z catonano joined #scheme
2018-10-23T18:50:54Z wasamasa: kawa is quite nice indeed
2018-10-23T18:51:27Z wasamasa: I've made this CLI project with it, something I'd never have done with clojure: https://github.com/wasamasa/waka
2018-10-23T18:52:48Z oni-on-ion: rain2: hm, 'dynamic variable' sounds kind of like saying, 'big giant'
2018-10-23T18:54:04Z gwatt: oni-on-ion: dynamic in that case refers to scope.
2018-10-23T18:56:21Z oni-on-ion: ah
2018-10-23T19:02:41Z rain2: it's also called fluid binding or parameter
2018-10-23T19:03:03Z rain2: I would like to understand better how these relate to continuations
2018-10-23T19:04:56Z gwatt: rain2: http://cisco.github.io/ChezScheme/csug9.5/binding.html#./binding:s19
2018-10-23T19:05:10Z oni-on-ion: just loaded fluids in manual. hmmm. starting to really like guile and its design, very thought out, and its new concepts and words =)
2018-10-23T19:05:37Z rain2: interesting
2018-10-23T19:06:05Z rain2: added to my notes
2018-10-23T19:06:29Z catonano quit (Quit: catonano)
2018-10-23T19:07:15Z gwatt: The Chez documentation is a gold mine of things like that. There's even an example of how to implement dynamic-wind if all you have is call/cc
2018-10-23T19:10:22Z oni-on-ion: ouu. chez was used to make julia, and recently opened, it would be my second choice after guile (i first typo'd gulie for a second..)
2018-10-23T19:10:38Z wasamasa: gulia
2018-10-23T19:10:43Z gwatt: ghoulia
2018-10-23T19:15:43Z jcowan: Or dulia
2018-10-23T19:16:06Z jcowan: Fluids are dangerous; parameters are safer.
2018-10-23T19:16:21Z rain2: oh i didn't realize that they were different things
2018-10-23T19:18:19Z gwatt: jcowan: aside from the optional validation, what is safer about parameters?
2018-10-23T19:18:32Z jcowan: parameters package up dynamic binding into a first-class object: you rebind what the object returns when called as a procedure, not the value of a global variable.
2018-10-23T19:18:45Z jcowan: therefore fluids don't work properly in the presence of threads
2018-10-23T19:19:09Z jcowan: at least not the default implementation; Guile may be smart about this
2018-10-23T19:19:28Z rain2: interesting
2018-10-23T19:20:00Z rain2: The way you use prompts for multi-prompt continuations is similar to the paremeters
2018-10-23T19:20:05Z rain2: how its a first class object you pass around
2018-10-23T19:21:54Z gwatt: jcowan: parameters have that downside as well
2018-10-23T19:23:55Z jcowan: there is a portability problem with parameters: if they have been set directly, other threads may or may not inherit that depending on the implementation.  That is why R7RS does not allow direct setting.
2018-10-23T19:24:21Z jcowan: apparently guile *is* smart about it, but I would still avoid fluids on any code you ever intend to port
2018-10-23T19:26:02Z ngz joined #scheme
2018-10-23T19:26:28Z jcowan: see https://srfi-email.schemers.org/srfi-15/msg/2771935 for the reasons why the fluid-variable SRFI was withdrawn
2018-10-23T19:27:21Z rain2: thank you, this is great info !
2018-10-23T19:27:34Z zmt00 joined #scheme
2018-10-23T19:29:05Z jcowan: that said, I have not seen any uses of parameters other than binding them to a global variable in fact
2018-10-23T19:29:27Z zmt01 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2018-10-23T19:29:45Z zachk joined #scheme
2018-10-23T19:31:09Z zachk quit (Changing host)
2018-10-23T19:31:09Z zachk joined #scheme
2018-10-23T19:33:41Z rain2: i suppose it could be useful when you are working with modules
2018-10-23T19:35:33Z muelleme joined #scheme
2018-10-23T19:43:00Z lambda-11235 joined #scheme
2018-10-23T19:50:34Z civodul joined #scheme
2018-10-23T19:56:28Z dbmikus__ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2018-10-23T19:58:02Z dbmikus__ joined #scheme
2018-10-23T19:59:51Z Zipheir joined #scheme
2018-10-23T20:01:32Z gwatt: Chez has a define-threaded (internal only) that DTRT for any set!, and uses this to implement several things, including the exception handler
2018-10-23T20:05:51Z daviid quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2018-10-23T20:06:14Z oni-on-ion: parameters build on fluids, says manual, if no one has said it yet
2018-10-23T20:11:08Z gwatt: oni-on-ion: parameters don't have to build on fluid bindings
2018-10-23T20:12:13Z oni-on-ion: gwatt: ok, just seen here, likely just a guile thing: https://www.gnu.org/software/guile/manual/html_node/Fluids-and-Dynamic-States.html
2018-10-23T20:12:21Z oni-on-ion: "guile uses fluids to implement parameters"
2018-10-23T20:12:34Z gwatt: Ah, I was not looking at the guile manual
2018-10-23T20:14:07Z TheGreekOwl quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2018-10-23T20:26:24Z jcowan: that's because guile does fluids with BRAAAAAINS
2018-10-23T20:26:28Z jcowan: whereas SRFI 15 does not
2018-10-23T20:31:08Z oni-on-ion: ohh =) is that part of why it was rejected ?
2018-10-23T20:31:45Z jcowan: yes, exactly
2018-10-23T20:32:22Z jcowan: the implementation is a gross hack that will not work in the presence of anything but one-entrance-one-exit code (no call/cc or threads)
2018-10-23T20:33:02Z Riastradh: `Fluid' doesn't always mean the fluid-let that does dynamic-wind set! body reset...
2018-10-23T20:33:09Z mejja joined #scheme
2018-10-23T20:33:38Z oni-on-ion: ew
2018-10-23T20:39:56Z gwatt: jcowan: the implementation looks like it handles call/cc just fine: https://srfi.schemers.org/srfi-15/srfi-15.html
2018-10-23T20:43:44Z oni-on-ion: why does the cover of SICP have eval/apply in a yin/yang sphere? are they complimentary opposites ?
2018-10-23T20:45:11Z xkapastel: not really, it's just that metacircular aesthetic
2018-10-23T20:46:20Z oni-on-ion: metacircular? is that not holistic duality like yin/yang ?
2018-10-23T20:46:39Z xkapastel: it doesn't really mean anything to be honest
2018-10-23T20:47:04Z oni-on-ion: ah, ok =) just reading the article here making it all mystical-seeming
2018-10-23T20:47:10Z xkapastel: they just wanted something nice to put on the cover, and yin/yang seems kinda deep so there you go
2018-10-23T20:48:44Z oni-on-ion: =/
2018-10-23T20:48:44Z Zipheir: It's that their definitions are mutually referential, IIUC.
2018-10-23T20:48:56Z Riastradh: oni-on-ion: Applying a procedure causes evaluating its body.
2018-10-23T20:49:06Z ski . o O ( <http://www.barzilay.org/random/CS212.html> )
2018-10-23T20:49:07Z Riastradh: oni-on-ion: Evaluating a procedure's body causes applying whatever procedure it calls.
2018-10-23T20:49:13Z Zipheir: If eval/apply are yin/yang, that makes Scheme the Dao.
2018-10-23T20:49:37Z xkapastel: Riastradh: that's not a real duality though so it's really forced to associate it with yin/yang
2018-10-23T20:50:16Z oni-on-ion: hm hmm hmmm.
2018-10-23T20:50:28Z Riastradh: xkapastel: Why are you arguing with me about that?
2018-10-23T20:50:54Z xkapastel: am i arguing? i'm commenting on the idea
2018-10-23T20:51:53Z Zipheir: Your duality example is insufficiently dualistic. 4/10 Descartes, try again.
2018-10-23T20:54:35Z oni-on-ion: hm; nondualism being highest form of cognitive awareness of mental formations; code being data is still above, eh?
2018-10-23T20:54:43Z Riastradh: All I'm saying is that this is the connection, not whether it's a good connection or not.  If you want to argue about whether the association is forced or whether it's a `real' duality, take it up with the authors, not with me!
2018-10-23T20:55:32Z Riastradh: xkapastel: It seemed a bit aggressive for you to (a) say there's nothing there, (b) respond to my statement of what the connection is by asserting it's not a real duality.
2018-10-23T20:55:55Z xkapastel: okay, i didn't mean to come across as aggressive. i'm just chatting
2018-10-23T20:56:58Z xkapastel: the authors are never going to talk about this
2018-10-23T20:57:03Z xkapastel: that's why we talk about it here :)
2018-10-23T20:57:30Z Riastradh: If you sent Gerry an email he'd probably respond.
2018-10-23T20:57:52Z Zipheir: I wonder what Abelson & Sussman think about SICP becoming the ultra-classic/mystical font of knowledge/meme that it is.
2018-10-23T20:58:03Z xkapastel: it's idle conversation, i don't know why he'd respond
2018-10-23T20:58:27Z xkapastel: seems appropriate for an irc channel
2018-10-23T20:58:49Z lavaflow quit (Read error: No route to host)
2018-10-23T20:58:58Z xkapastel: they probably love it
2018-10-23T20:59:06Z xkapastel: didn't they dress up as wizards for the video series
2018-10-23T20:59:18Z xkapastel: seems like becoming a meme was their intention
2018-10-23T21:00:07Z ski . o O ( <https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/a2/MIT_GNU_Scheme_Logo.svg>,<https://clisp.sourceforge.io/impnotes/faq.html#faq-menorah-why> )
2018-10-23T21:00:42Z oni-on-ion: heh. i was interested in CLISP the same time i was interested in kabbalah.
2018-10-23T21:01:10Z gwatt: heh, Accordingly, CLISP enables you to see the truth, thus you can pronounce it as see-lisp. Alternatively, if you are a seasoned expert, you might pronounce it as sea-lisp.
2018-10-23T21:01:15Z oni-on-ion: btw the article i was reading, was from here: https://www.reddit.com/r/emacs/comments/9ol08v/how_lisp_became_gods_own_programming_language/
2018-10-23T21:02:17Z Zipheir: Yeah, that article has exploded across the Lisp community in the past week or so. It's good stuff.
2018-10-23T21:02:45Z oni-on-ion: ah =) im late. too many tabs =( trying to get through those today.
2018-10-23T21:02:59Z Zipheir: The only glaring omission is the impact of Emacs in spreading lisp.
2018-10-23T21:10:40Z muelleme quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2018-10-23T21:11:47Z eddof13 joined #scheme
2018-10-23T21:40:46Z acarrico quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2018-10-23T21:43:15Z klovett_ joined #scheme
2018-10-23T21:46:27Z klovett quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2018-10-23T22:07:32Z CORDIC joined #scheme
2018-10-23T22:07:41Z ngz quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2018-10-23T22:08:27Z DKordic quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2018-10-23T22:12:47Z CORDIC quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2018-10-23T22:17:20Z muelleme joined #scheme
2018-10-23T22:22:16Z muelleme quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2018-10-23T22:28:12Z rain2: https://stackoverflow.com/questions/52938872/how-to-define-exceptions-in-scheme-using-a-dynamic-variable-and-abortive-control/52958419 got a really good answer
2018-10-23T22:28:12Z rudybot: http://teensy.info/5p9iHYg1LU
2018-10-23T22:31:27Z Zipheir: Good, I'm still trying to understand the question :)
2018-10-23T22:33:56Z civodul quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 26.1))
2018-10-23T22:40:06Z dbmikus__ quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
2018-10-23T22:41:50Z InverseRhombus joined #scheme
2018-10-23T22:46:41Z daviid joined #scheme
2018-10-23T22:51:04Z pjb quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2018-10-23T23:01:49Z pierpa joined #scheme
2018-10-23T23:05:28Z eddof13 quit (Quit: eddof13)
2018-10-23T23:06:59Z dbmikus__ joined #scheme
2018-10-23T23:10:11Z eddof13 joined #scheme
2018-10-23T23:11:28Z dbmikus__ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2018-10-23T23:11:53Z eddof13 quit (Client Quit)
2018-10-23T23:15:49Z robotoad_ quit (Quit: robotoad_)
2018-10-23T23:30:58Z lambda-11235 quit (Quit: Bye)
2018-10-23T23:38:41Z keep_learning quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
2018-10-23T23:58:26Z mejja quit (Quit: mejja)
2018-10-23T23:59:14Z robotoad joined #scheme
2018-10-24T00:01:15Z sethalves quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2018-10-24T00:04:27Z acarrico joined #scheme
2018-10-24T00:04:48Z sethalves joined #scheme
2018-10-24T00:38:13Z klovett joined #scheme
2018-10-24T00:38:13Z jcowan: I'm looking at Riastradh's proposed restarter package
2018-10-24T00:41:24Z klovett_ quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2018-10-24T00:43:52Z siraben: gwatt:  Yeah, I'm aware of tinyscheme but it's very insufficient.
2018-10-24T00:44:19Z siraben: Doesn't even have `define-syntax'
2018-10-24T00:46:28Z oni-on-ion: Zipheir: i may not be lisping without emacs; conversely, i may not be emacsing without lisp
2018-10-24T00:47:19Z oni-on-ion: thinking further, a lot of this would be missing without emacs.
2018-10-24T00:47:23Z siraben: Zipheir:  I agree, Emacs should have been mentioned at least once in that article.
2018-10-24T00:47:47Z siraben: I'd love to see SHRDLU rewritten in Scheme someday.
2018-10-24T00:48:01Z Riastradh quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2018-10-24T00:49:21Z robotoad quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2018-10-24T00:49:59Z siraben: I'm compiling Chibi scheme from the Github repository now on my Android device, nothing failed yet.
2018-10-24T00:50:22Z robotoad joined #scheme
2018-10-24T00:51:39Z siraben: Ok, the build worked, but I can't run ./chibi-scheme
2018-10-24T00:52:08Z siraben: CANNOT LINK EXECUTABLE DEPENDENCIES:  library "libchibi-scheme.so.0" not found
2018-10-24T00:53:09Z oni-on-ion: run ldconfig
2018-10-24T00:54:01Z jp quit (Quit: https://ptpb.pw/~docrivers.gif)
2018-10-24T00:55:14Z siraben: Where do I get ldconfig from?
2018-10-24T00:57:48Z zachk quit (Quit: Leaving)
2018-10-24T00:58:49Z jcowan: If you are on linux, you need to run it as superuser.  If not, you don't need to run it.
2018-10-24T00:59:28Z jcowan: oh, android.  Yes, try "sudo /sbin/ldconfig"
2018-10-24T01:00:17Z siraben: It's not rooted, so no sudo
2018-10-24T01:00:30Z siraben: Oof permission denied
2018-10-24T01:00:41Z siraben flinches
2018-10-24T01:01:05Z oni-on-ion: hmm
2018-10-24T01:01:09Z oni-on-ion: restart the termux ?
2018-10-24T01:01:41Z oni-on-ion: its rare to need ldconfig but the other day i needed it for guile unable to find new libraries in obviously used location (usr/local/lib)
2018-10-24T01:01:57Z oni-on-ion: and also now apt complains about it not being in path which is seperate issue. ^_^
2018-10-24T01:07:06Z jcowan: alternatively,put the directory containing the Guile *.so libraries on the environment variable LD_LIBRARY_PATH (separated by a colon from anything already there).
2018-10-24T01:09:50Z siraben: Ah I see where my $LD_LIBRARY_PATH is set
2018-10-24T01:10:08Z siraben:  /data/data/com.termux/files/usr/lib
2018-10-24T01:11:55Z oni-on-ion: make install went there ?
2018-10-24T01:13:22Z keep_learning joined #scheme
2018-10-24T01:21:52Z siraben: http://www.blogbyben.com/2018/04/lightweight-r7rs-compliant-and-in-palm.html it seems to have worked for others
2018-10-24T01:22:05Z siraben: Maybe I should go nuclear and reset my Termux environment, brb.
2018-10-24T01:32:03Z siraben: Nope, compiling still fails.
2018-10-24T01:32:21Z siraben: This is weird, I'll try to see if there's an IRC channel
2018-10-24T01:32:46Z Guest13389 quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
2018-10-24T01:33:10Z siraben: Anyone here use Termux and have Scheme?
2018-10-24T01:40:46Z dbmikus__ joined #scheme
2018-10-24T01:41:23Z dbmikus__ quit (Client Quit)
2018-10-24T01:42:03Z dbmikus joined #scheme
2018-10-24T01:45:23Z Guest13389 joined #scheme
2018-10-24T01:47:25Z Riastradh joined #scheme
2018-10-24T02:15:31Z robotoad quit (Quit: robotoad)
2018-10-24T02:19:10Z zmt00 quit (Quit: Leaving)
2018-10-24T02:27:58Z jcob joined #scheme
2018-10-24T02:27:59Z robotoad joined #scheme
2018-10-24T02:34:53Z jp joined #scheme
2018-10-24T02:36:25Z skapata quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2018-10-24T03:01:34Z daviid quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
2018-10-24T03:16:51Z cortisol quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2018-10-24T03:18:27Z cortisol joined #scheme
2018-10-24T03:32:35Z pierpa quit (Quit: Page closed)
2018-10-24T03:47:05Z erkin quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2018-10-24T03:51:01Z pierpal joined #scheme
2018-10-24T03:52:07Z jcob quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2018-10-24T03:54:03Z pierpal quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2018-10-24T04:03:44Z Inline quit (Quit: Leaving)
2018-10-24T04:16:06Z dbmikus quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2018-10-24T04:18:22Z pierpal joined #scheme
2018-10-24T04:22:52Z pierpal quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2018-10-24T04:27:29Z pierpal joined #scheme
2018-10-24T04:37:27Z pierpal quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2018-10-24T04:38:36Z pierpal joined #scheme
2018-10-24T04:40:19Z lockywolf joined #scheme
2018-10-24T04:42:47Z pierpal quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2018-10-24T04:47:03Z lockywolf_ joined #scheme
2018-10-24T04:48:04Z pierpal joined #scheme
2018-10-24T04:50:12Z lockywolf quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2018-10-24T04:53:26Z pjb joined #scheme
2018-10-24T05:15:30Z lockywolf_ quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2018-10-24T05:30:10Z Ober: siraben: yeah I'm working on gambit
2018-10-24T05:30:13Z Ober: and gerbil atm
2018-10-24T05:30:18Z Ober: rather have them working
2018-10-24T05:30:35Z Ober: siraben: what issues are you seeing?
2018-10-24T05:30:41Z siraben: I think it's something to do with my android version (5.1.1)
2018-10-24T05:30:44Z Ober: android vlog undefined?
2018-10-24T05:30:48Z siraben: Oh, linking fails.
2018-10-24T05:30:57Z siraben: Like it compiles with linking errors
2018-10-24T05:30:59Z Ober: ensure you use -llog
2018-10-24T05:31:13Z siraben: so make -llog ... ?
2018-10-24T05:31:19Z siraben: Like that?
2018-10-24T05:33:55Z Ober: it's an LDFLAG
2018-10-24T05:34:11Z Ober: which scheme are you trying to build?
2018-10-24T05:35:59Z siraben: At this point it's any
2018-10-24T05:36:41Z Ober: which ones have you been trying?
2018-10-24T05:38:08Z siraben: chibi and chicken
2018-10-24T05:42:43Z Ober: ahh I just use homebrew on termux, which fixes all the silly issues that you could spend a bit trying to figure out
2018-10-24T05:43:49Z siraben: Where's homebrew on termux?
2018-10-24T05:44:36Z Ober: https://github.com/Linuxbrew/brew/pull/621
2018-10-24T05:46:37Z siraben: Would it work if I git clone it?
2018-10-24T05:46:42Z siraben: Well paste that string
2018-10-24T05:47:39Z Ober: sure it's just linux brew, just like homebrew install
2018-10-24T05:54:43Z montokapro joined #scheme
2018-10-24T05:59:44Z montokapro quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2018-10-24T06:07:33Z dieggsy: Ober: what version of android do you use?
2018-10-24T06:08:11Z Ober: 7.1.2
2018-10-24T06:11:12Z dieggsy: Ober: have you had linuxbrew work on termux in android 5-ish ?
2018-10-24T06:11:19Z dieggsy: er, not that i've tried it or anything
2018-10-24T06:11:27Z pjb quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2018-10-24T06:11:31Z muelleme joined #scheme
2018-10-24T06:12:18Z Ober: only use e.foundation for android so no.
2018-10-24T06:16:43Z muelleme quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2018-10-24T06:36:23Z oni-on-ion: rain2: i get it now. dynamic scope. =)
2018-10-24T06:38:27Z ecraven: foof`: is there a way to get at the chibi version from inside chibi? short of running 'chibi-scheme -V'?
2018-10-24T06:43:01Z pjb joined #scheme
2018-10-24T06:46:07Z jao quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2018-10-24T06:47:28Z robotoad quit (Quit: robotoad)
2018-10-24T06:47:41Z ecraven: did anyone get mosh scheme to work recently? just built it, segfaults :-/
2018-10-24T06:48:56Z jcowan quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity)
2018-10-24T06:50:24Z Ober: chibi configure script, lol
2018-10-24T06:53:43Z Ober: dieggsy: siraben: chibi builds fine.
2018-10-24T06:54:39Z Ober: /data/data/com.termux/files/usr/bin
2018-10-24T06:54:39Z Ober: u0_a95|localhost|:bin> ./chibi-scheme
2018-10-24T06:54:40Z Ober: > (+ 1 1)
2018-10-24T06:54:40Z Ober: 2
2018-10-24T06:54:42Z Ober:  
2018-10-24T06:54:46Z Ober: Linux localhost 3.10.108-lineageOS #1 SMP PREEMPT Mon Oct 22 00:05:57 UTC 2018 armv7l Android
2018-10-24T06:54:57Z Ober: you might want to start there
2018-10-24T06:57:43Z lavaflow joined #scheme
2018-10-24T07:04:16Z pie_ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2018-10-24T07:14:36Z aeth: r7rs-small only gives (+ 3 4) => 7, (+ 3) => 3, and (+) => 0, and the description that the arguments are summed, without defining sum
2018-10-24T07:14:48Z aeth: So does Scheme actually guarantee (+ 1 1) => 2 anywhere?
2018-10-24T07:16:15Z pjb quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2018-10-24T07:18:16Z skapata joined #scheme
2018-10-24T07:23:54Z siraben: Ober:  Jealous!  How did you do it?
2018-10-24T07:24:11Z siraben: aeth:  Someone ought to do a proof of correctness
2018-10-24T07:24:51Z aeth: Someone ought to do an r7rs-extra-large where it clarifies things like (+ 1 1) => 2
2018-10-24T07:25:26Z siraben: aeth:  Can you name a language where 1 + 1 is guaranteed to be 2?
2018-10-24T07:25:56Z pierpal quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2018-10-24T07:26:00Z siraben: Haskell (+) :: Num a => a -> a -> a so hey, 1 + 1 could be anything just a number
2018-10-24T07:27:52Z lavaflow: r7rs could break major ground by being the first language to guarantee that 1+1=2
2018-10-24T07:28:48Z pie_ joined #scheme
2018-10-24T07:30:00Z pie_ quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2018-10-24T07:30:01Z aeth: Actually, Common Lisp has *read-base* which defaults to 10 and *print-base* which also defaults to 10. So you could (setf *print-base* 2) and (setf *read-base* 2) and then (+ 1 1) => 10
2018-10-24T07:30:20Z ecraven: that would still be 2 though
2018-10-24T07:30:42Z ecraven: #b10 and 2 (and #o2 and #x2) are all exactly the same
2018-10-24T07:30:56Z aeth: If you know the values of those two globals, to some degree you know (+ 1 1) => 2 in CL because you know it's base 10 which brings a lot with it.
2018-10-24T07:32:28Z aeth: I don't think Scheme specifies base 10
2018-10-24T07:32:43Z siraben: Why not convert fixnums to Peano natural numbers?
2018-10-24T07:32:50Z ecraven: some Schemes have an equivalent to *print-base* and *read-base*
2018-10-24T07:32:51Z siraben: Then you could get Coq to prove laws about +
2018-10-24T07:33:16Z siraben: (= (+ a b) (+ b a)) => #t
2018-10-24T07:33:19Z siraben: For all a, b
2018-10-24T07:33:27Z ecraven: I don't think that there is any Scheme where in *practice* (+ 1 1) is anything but 2
2018-10-24T07:33:38Z ecraven: (until you get to the end of fixnums, then you might run into problems)
2018-10-24T07:33:38Z siraben: (define 1 5)
2018-10-24T07:33:48Z ecraven: siraben: that is illegal
2018-10-24T07:34:04Z siraben: Uh oh!  The Scheme police got me!
2018-10-24T07:34:07Z InverseRhombus quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2018-10-24T07:34:15Z siraben: (define one 5)
2018-10-24T07:34:38Z siraben: Actually, go Peano... (define s0 1) (define ss0 2) ...
2018-10-24T07:34:50Z siraben: (= ss0 (+ s0 s0)) => #t
2018-10-24T07:35:09Z lavaflow: now I want to see a language where symbols actually get parsed into numbers if the name of the symbol is a number.   twenty-five -> 25
2018-10-24T07:35:31Z ecraven: lavaflow: you could easily write a macro that does that
2018-10-24T07:35:34Z siraben: You could in Forth
2018-10-24T07:35:39Z ecraven: (num three-hundred-fifty) -> 350
2018-10-24T07:36:02Z lavaflow: yeah this seems like fun
2018-10-24T07:36:08Z siraben: Common Lisp has a format directive that prints numbers as English words.
2018-10-24T07:36:33Z siraben: But I'd rather read 12345 than twelve-thousand-three-hundred-and-forty-five
2018-10-24T07:36:40Z aeth: Wouldn't take much to port this to Scheme... Replace the loop with (do ((i 1 (1+ i))) ((= i n)) ...) https://gitlab.com/snippets/1761668
2018-10-24T07:37:10Z aeth: Of course, those are just the numbers. The fun comes when you define +, -, *, /, etc.
2018-10-24T07:37:27Z siraben: Oh you and your "~S~%~S~%"
2018-10-24T07:38:06Z lavaflow: well I'm a bit rusty on my english style rules, but I think there are some guidelines about when you'd spell a number out and when you'd just use digits.   like if the number is less then twenty, you spell it out... or something like that.
2018-10-24T07:38:09Z aeth: (format t "~S~%, what is the problem with ~~S~~%?" siraben)
2018-10-24T07:38:32Z aeth: lavaflow: probably depends on the dialect and region
2018-10-24T07:38:42Z aeth: lavaflow: the rule I learned was ten.
2018-10-24T07:38:53Z lavaflow: Oh I'm sure.   probably depends on the publication too.   I bet the NYT has their own rule about it.
2018-10-24T07:38:57Z aeth: one, two, three four, five, six, seven, eight, nine, ten, 11, 12, ...
2018-10-24T07:39:13Z siraben: Consult Chicago Manual of Style
2018-10-24T07:39:21Z aeth: there are several such manuals
2018-10-24T07:39:25Z aeth: In the US alone
2018-10-24T07:39:39Z siraben: By now it's probably an ISO standard, actually.
2018-10-24T07:41:03Z ecraven: I'd start writing literal digits from 13 (so eleven, twelve are still words)
2018-10-24T07:42:23Z lavaflow: my copy of elements of style gives no cutoff, but recommends spelling out numbers if they're in dialogue, but not otherwise.
2018-10-24T07:42:48Z lavaflow: "In the year 1990, I turned twenty-one."
2018-10-24T07:44:21Z aeth: Excuse me? I believe you mean the year MCMXC. All years are Roman numerals!
2018-10-24T07:44:46Z siraben gasp
2018-10-24T07:45:03Z aeth: At least until MM, then they gave up with the ©MM for the most part... just as it was getting easy to write again
2018-10-24T07:45:10Z siraben: It's no wonder the Romans were bad at algebra.
2018-10-24T07:45:27Z pjb joined #scheme
2018-10-24T07:45:48Z aeth: siraben: The Romans were as bad at algebra as we are at interstellar travel.
2018-10-24T07:46:07Z aeth: That is, if you told them how to do it, they would probably be able to figure it out, but it isn't invented yet!
2018-10-24T07:46:08Z siraben: How can you compare the two?
2018-10-24T07:46:18Z siraben: Oh, I see.
2018-10-24T07:46:20Z aeth: al-gebra is the big hint as to its origin :-p
2018-10-24T07:46:24Z lavaflow: it honeslty would surprise me if a poorly designed numeral system could set back mathematics
2018-10-24T07:46:34Z siraben: Duh, it was invented in uh... greece!
2018-10-24T07:46:45Z aeth: exactly the Greeks invented all math
2018-10-24T07:47:17Z lavaflow: unless you listen to the greeks, who claim they got it from egyptians ;)
2018-10-24T07:47:35Z siraben: Didn't Pythagoras' cult kill someone because they found out that (sqrt 2) couldn't be written as a rational number?
2018-10-24T07:48:18Z aeth: Apparently early algebra wasn't described with equations. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Compendious_Book_on_Calculation_by_Completion_and_Balancing#Quadratic_equations
2018-10-24T07:48:23Z rudybot: http://teensy.info/711Wz0QT5C
2018-10-24T07:48:28Z aeth: That probably helps your argument, though
2018-10-24T07:48:42Z aeth: Algebra was advanced math and now we expect children to learn it
2018-10-24T07:48:50Z lavaflow: siraben: that's the story anyway.  I've heard people argue in both directions whether we're to believe it actually happened.
2018-10-24T07:49:02Z aeth: "squares and roots equal number" vs. "ax^2 + bx = c"
2018-10-24T07:49:10Z siraben: It'd be interesting to look back millenia in the future to this point in history
2018-10-24T07:49:28Z siraben: "Geez those 20/21st century primitives hadn't a clue about XYZ"
2018-10-24T07:49:48Z siraben: Kids in the future might as well learn type theory, if we take that analogy of mathematics
2018-10-24T07:49:52Z lavaflow: I think it was Diogenes Laertius who said the pythagoreans basically got all their stuff from Egypt, but I might be misremembering that.
2018-10-24T07:52:22Z aeth: It's interesting to see the biases of ancient cultures
2018-10-24T07:52:29Z aeth: Greeks thought of everything in terms of geometry.
2018-10-24T07:52:35Z aeth: Try explaining 0 or negative numbers there.
2018-10-24T07:52:42Z siraben: We think of everything in set theory, technically.
2018-10-24T07:52:50Z siraben: Formalization of math right now is in ZFC.
2018-10-24T07:53:16Z siraben: Seems to have worked remarkably well, but who knows.
2018-10-24T07:53:58Z aeth: it's interesting that intelligent extraterrestrials could have the same results like a^2 + b^2 = c^2 (or, more elaborately, calculus) without having the same foundations
2018-10-24T07:54:16Z siraben: What about something like logic?
2018-10-24T07:54:17Z siraben: Type theory?
2018-10-24T07:54:21Z lavaflow: hmm,  the length of a line segment drawn between point A and point A?
2018-10-24T07:58:30Z aeth: lavaflow: even the modern definition says two distinct end points. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Line_segment
2018-10-24T07:58:30Z ngz joined #scheme
2018-10-24T07:59:25Z siraben: Or you could define 0 as the distance between two points that got closer and closer
2018-10-24T07:59:30Z siraben: The limit of the distance*
2018-10-24T07:59:44Z lavaflow: yeah I suppose the greek geometrician(?) would probably just slap me with a straightedge for trying to suggest a line segment drawn between one point.
2018-10-24T07:59:57Z siraben: Geometer, I think
2018-10-24T08:00:12Z siraben: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_geometers
2018-10-24T08:00:38Z lavaflow: ah yeah, that sounds much better
2018-10-24T08:07:48Z xkapastel quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity)
2018-10-24T08:09:34Z bor0 joined #scheme
2018-10-24T08:16:59Z pie_ joined #scheme
2018-10-24T08:17:50Z pie_ quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2018-10-24T08:18:04Z pjb quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2018-10-24T08:18:20Z pie_ joined #scheme
2018-10-24T08:23:43Z ggole joined #scheme
2018-10-24T08:24:14Z ArneBab quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
2018-10-24T08:24:37Z ArneBab joined #scheme
2018-10-24T08:24:37Z ArneBab quit (Changing host)
2018-10-24T08:24:37Z ArneBab joined #scheme
2018-10-24T08:26:56Z ngz quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2018-10-24T08:48:58Z bor0 quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)
2018-10-24T09:07:54Z ecraven: is there some sort of "standard" macro for iteration from i to j?
2018-10-24T09:07:59Z ecraven: like dotimes in CL?
2018-10-24T09:08:14Z ecraven: I know rnrs doesn't have one, but is there something that is widespread?
2018-10-24T09:08:33Z mario-goulart: do?
2018-10-24T09:08:38Z ecraven: too verbose
2018-10-24T09:08:43Z ecraven: (dotimes (i 0 5) ...)
2018-10-24T09:08:51Z mario-goulart: I agree. Never used `do'. :-)
2018-10-24T09:12:19Z mario-goulart: ecraven: there's an implementation of dotimes here, in case you are ok at copying&pasting (3-clause BSD -- see http://wiki.call-cc.org/eggref/4/miscmacros#license):  http://bugs.call-cc.org/browser/project/release/4/miscmacros/trunk/miscmacros.scm#L123
2018-10-24T09:12:38Z mario-goulart: Looks portable.
2018-10-24T09:13:12Z ecraven: I have it implemented, I was just wondering whether there's something more "standard" that other schemes use
2018-10-24T09:13:29Z mario-goulart: Ah, ok.  Not that I know.
2018-10-24T09:15:27Z ski: rudybot: eval (map (lambda (n) (* n n)) (iota 5))
2018-10-24T09:15:28Z rudybot: ski: ; Value: '(0 1 4 9 16)
2018-10-24T09:15:44Z ski: rudybot: eval (map (lambda (n) (* n n)) (iota 3 5))
2018-10-24T09:15:45Z rudybot: ski: ; Value: '(25 36 49)
2018-10-24T09:16:20Z ecraven: also too verbose :-/
2018-10-24T09:16:30Z ski: mm
2018-10-24T09:19:08Z ski: with foof-loop, there's `(loop ((for i (up-from 0 (to 5)))) ..i..)'
2018-10-24T09:19:57Z ecraven: that also seems excessively verbose.. I'm working on some 2d vector stuff (heightmaps, images), I "just" need a nice way to iterate over each x/y pair...
2018-10-24T09:20:04Z ecraven: so probably a custom macro is the way to go here
2018-10-24T09:40:42Z pie_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2018-10-24T09:41:18Z pie_ joined #scheme
2018-10-24T09:43:02Z pie_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2018-10-24T09:43:34Z pie_ joined #scheme
2018-10-24T09:49:55Z pie_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2018-10-24T10:02:53Z lritter joined #scheme
2018-10-24T10:14:55Z amz3` joined #scheme
2018-10-24T10:15:49Z pjb joined #scheme
2018-10-24T10:41:30Z hugo: Hi!
2018-10-24T10:41:46Z hugo: I'm currently writing a CSV parser, and genereting record types for it.
2018-10-24T10:42:04Z hugo: Now I'm wondering if there is any good way to expose the record-getters.
2018-10-24T10:42:42Z siraben: Use monads
2018-10-24T10:42:45Z siraben: Monadic parsing works
2018-10-24T10:43:25Z siraben: That's how I would do it anyway
2018-10-24T10:43:45Z hugo: https://git.hornquist.se/lyslib/tree/parse.scm#n87
2018-10-24T10:43:47Z hugo: Here's the code
2018-10-24T10:43:53Z hugo: I have gotten the actuall parsing down
2018-10-24T10:44:17Z siraben: What do you mean expose record types?
2018-10-24T10:44:30Z hugo: I create an srfi-9 record type from the first line in the csv file
2018-10-24T10:44:56Z hugo: From there I call create a record accessor for each field in the record
2018-10-24T10:45:08Z hugo: And now I want these as top level definitions.
2018-10-24T10:49:16Z pjb quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2018-10-24T10:49:21Z ecraven: that is not possible portably, I think
2018-10-24T10:51:58Z hugo: That's too bad (but possibly also good to keep code sane).
2018-10-24T10:52:14Z hugo: Is there any non portable way to do it? I'm using Guile
2018-10-24T10:53:38Z siraben: Err, use vectors?
2018-10-24T10:54:52Z ecraven: you need to find out how to define new top-level bindings in guile, probably #guile knows
2018-10-24T10:55:14Z ecraven: *but* this seems like a really bad idea ;)
2018-10-24T10:55:18Z hugo: ecraven: Sounds like a good bet
2018-10-24T10:55:36Z hugo: siraben: Do you mean to use vectors instead of records?
2018-10-24T10:55:56Z pierpal joined #scheme
2018-10-24T10:56:22Z ecraven: why not just read each line into a list/vector and provide some way to access these depending on the column name?
2018-10-24T10:56:32Z siraben: Yes
2018-10-24T10:56:55Z siraben: Exactly.
2018-10-24T10:56:59Z ecraven: or maybe just a hash, but a record seems the wrong abstraction to me (as you won't know the actual names at compile-time)
2018-10-24T10:57:29Z siraben: My philosophy is to use the right types, usually generic ones first
2018-10-24T10:57:43Z siraben: Heck you could do it with lists.
2018-10-24T10:57:58Z hugo: Wouldn't that lead to a similar problem? I would still need to set up some form of binding for accessing the fields in the vector.
2018-10-24T10:58:12Z ecraven: hugo: indeed, but it would be at runtime, where it belongs ;)
2018-10-24T10:58:25Z ecraven: now you just need a map column-name -> index
2018-10-24T10:58:37Z ecraven: or even just an alist ;)
2018-10-24T10:58:39Z hugo: So wouldn't it boild down to (list-ref record (record-id "field-name")) vs (record-rec record "field-name").
2018-10-24T10:58:59Z ecraven: I was assuming you wanted (record-field-name record)
2018-10-24T10:59:15Z hugo: (record-field-name record) is what I would have prefered
2018-10-24T10:59:37Z ecraven: how would that work? you don't know the field-names at the time you write the program?
2018-10-24T10:59:44Z ecraven: or rather, they might change when you actually read the file
2018-10-24T11:00:16Z hugo: Procedure creation at runtime.
2018-10-24T11:00:29Z ecraven: the problem is not creating the procedures, but naming them
2018-10-24T11:00:32Z hugo: (which might be a rather bad idea, and break all form of pre-compiling)
2018-10-24T11:00:34Z ecraven: how do you write them in your source code?
2018-10-24T11:01:03Z hugo: A hypothetical define-top-level, which could be called from anywhere
2018-10-24T11:01:15Z ecraven: srfi-9 doesn't give you the tools to do what you want
2018-10-24T11:01:22Z ecraven: you need a procedural interface to record definitions
2018-10-24T11:01:50Z hugo: You mean like (record-ref record "field-name")?
2018-10-24T11:01:53Z ecraven: hugo: but that will only work at runtime. record-field-name won't be bound to anything until you actually read the csv file
2018-10-24T11:02:10Z ecraven: and if that column name changes, all your existing code will crash
2018-10-24T11:03:00Z hugo: You are right
2018-10-24T11:03:27Z siraben: Make your code generic enough so it doesn't rely on the CSV data
2018-10-24T11:03:36Z hugo: I could in theory move the CSV parsing to compile time. But that just sounds like the WRONG way to do it
2018-10-24T11:04:34Z ecraven: hugo: I'd rather suggest what siraben said, just do the following:
2018-10-24T11:04:49Z ecraven: define a record type csv, which has a mapping for field names and rows of data.
2018-10-24T11:05:05Z ecraven: each row is just a vector. then you can write a function (csv-ref csv field-name row-number) easily
2018-10-24T11:05:57Z hugo: ecraven: I probbably should just change so that the CSV file is loaded into a vector
2018-10-24T11:06:03Z hugo: And use the csv-ref procedure you mention
2018-10-24T11:06:39Z ecraven: personally, I think that way lies sanity ;)
2018-10-24T11:12:12Z siraben: Yes, sounds good.
2018-10-24T11:19:42Z cmaloney left #scheme
2018-10-24T11:31:20Z ecraven: what do you call a function that is called with an index and returns an element, to create a collection
2018-10-24T11:31:33Z ecraven: so you call it with 0, 1, 2 ... to create a vector of some elements
2018-10-24T11:31:47Z ecraven: I've seen "tabulate" for lists before, but is there some generalised name?
2018-10-24T11:33:06Z pierpal quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
2018-10-24T11:33:14Z ski: i've seen it for vectors as well
2018-10-24T11:33:18Z ski: (it being "tabulate")
2018-10-24T11:33:31Z ecraven: just seems strange for something like an image to call it image-tabulate
2018-10-24T11:33:33Z ecraven: or matrices
2018-10-24T11:33:35Z hugo: https://git.hornquist.se/lyslib/tree/parse.scm#n98
2018-10-24T11:33:46Z hugo: This is my solution, from before (sorry to interject)
2018-10-24T11:34:20Z ecraven: maybe (make-image width height [fun]) (with an optional function to initialise it)?
2018-10-24T11:48:58Z wigust- joined #scheme
2018-10-24T11:49:02Z jcowan joined #scheme
2018-10-24T11:49:38Z wigust quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
2018-10-24T12:00:03Z thevishy joined #scheme
2018-10-24T12:01:09Z lritter quit (Quit: Leaving)
2018-10-24T12:01:27Z InverseRhombus joined #scheme
2018-10-24T12:02:16Z InverseRhombus quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2018-10-24T12:02:28Z pie_ joined #scheme
2018-10-24T12:02:48Z jao joined #scheme
2018-10-24T12:03:21Z pie_ quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2018-10-24T12:03:48Z pie_ joined #scheme
2018-10-24T12:04:51Z InverseRhombus joined #scheme
2018-10-24T12:31:57Z InverseRhombus quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2018-10-24T12:45:55Z pjb joined #scheme
2018-10-24T12:59:59Z xkapastel joined #scheme
2018-10-24T13:06:48Z InverseRhombus joined #scheme
2018-10-24T13:19:16Z pjb quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2018-10-24T13:19:52Z nilg quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2018-10-24T13:21:16Z pie_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2018-10-24T13:21:48Z pie_ joined #scheme
2018-10-24T13:27:00Z pie_ quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2018-10-24T13:31:57Z klovett quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2018-10-24T13:32:15Z klovett joined #scheme
2018-10-24T13:32:36Z TheGreekOwl joined #scheme
2018-10-24T13:39:56Z catonano joined #scheme
2018-10-24T13:41:32Z gwatt: ecraven: for looping over vectors, what about vector-for-each
2018-10-24T13:42:07Z pie_ joined #scheme
2018-10-24T13:42:43Z ecraven: gwatt: that's ok for vectors. but it also won't allow me to set the values
2018-10-24T13:43:05Z gwatt: you could use vector-map to return new vectors
2018-10-24T13:43:11Z ecraven: I want something like (image-tabulate 1920 1080 (lambda (x y) (calculate-correct-color-value-depending-on x y)))
2018-10-24T13:43:27Z gwatt: Ah, ok
2018-10-24T13:43:32Z ecraven: sometimes, I wish Scheme was less monomorphic :-/
2018-10-24T13:43:42Z ecraven mumbles generic sequence functions :-/
2018-10-24T13:47:37Z smazga joined #scheme
2018-10-24T13:56:44Z acarrico quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
2018-10-24T13:58:43Z acarrico joined #scheme
2018-10-24T13:58:49Z alezost joined #scheme
2018-10-24T14:03:33Z Inline joined #scheme
2018-10-24T14:14:07Z jcowan mumbles predicate generic functions
2018-10-24T14:15:33Z ecraven: jcowan: I'd be very much ok with these, as long as they are somehow "standardised"... say MAP should be such a generic function, and I'd just use that for everything, throwing away vector-map and string-map and foo-map and bar-map etc.
2018-10-24T14:16:16Z ecraven: so many things are isomorphic to other things, but you have to redefine the same operations for everything :-/ (unless you want to break with Scheme's tradition of monomorphism ;)
2018-10-24T14:17:11Z jcowan: Yes, I'm going to have two SRFIs, one to define the PGF framework based on (chibi generic), and the other to define some generic functions (lots) and the types they operate on (lots).  Maybe three SRFIs, now that I think about it, one for functions and one for standard methods.
2018-10-24T14:17:29Z ecraven: jcowan: I'm really looking forward to that..
2018-10-24T14:17:36Z ecraven: what's the plan for things like map, which already exist?
2018-10-24T14:17:38Z ecraven: just make them gfs?
2018-10-24T14:17:41Z jcowan: I fear though that the generic map will have to be called genmap, as map and gmap are taken
2018-10-24T14:18:00Z jcowan: maybe introduce a new punctuation mark (by convention) for generic functions
2018-10-24T14:18:02Z ecraven: hm.. all the good names are already taken.. append, filter, map, ...
2018-10-24T14:18:15Z ecraven: hehe, like mapo, appendo etc.
2018-10-24T14:18:27Z ecraven: lots of nice unicode symbols we can use :D
2018-10-24T14:18:38Z jcowan: Other than let* and letrec*, trailing star isn't used much, and it has the right connotations, so maybe map*, append*, etc.
2018-10-24T14:18:54Z ecraven: I'd like that
2018-10-24T14:19:00Z ecraven: or something as simple as it
2018-10-24T14:19:08Z ski . o O ( `list*' )
2018-10-24T14:19:08Z ecraven: preferably a symbol, not a letter
2018-10-24T14:22:59Z jcowan: yes, I agree a symbol, and alas it must be ASCII or people won't use it because they can't type it and completion will just be annoying.
2018-10-24T14:23:36Z jcowan: trailing & is totally unused by anyone I know of and suggest "and more"
2018-10-24T14:23:43Z jcowan: what do you think?
2018-10-24T14:23:46Z qu1j0t3: b&
2018-10-24T14:24:08Z oni-on-ion: =p
2018-10-24T14:24:10Z ecraven: (map& + (vector 1 2 3)) doesn't look as nice as (map* + (vector 1 2 3)) to me
2018-10-24T14:24:38Z ecraven: but I agree, I've never seen & used anywhere for anything ;)
2018-10-24T14:25:23Z gwatt: map+
2018-10-24T14:26:35Z klovett_ joined #scheme
2018-10-24T14:26:44Z jcowan: That's good too and not as visually noisy
2018-10-24T14:26:49Z ecraven: I like that
2018-10-24T14:27:06Z ecraven: filter+ and append+ also
2018-10-24T14:27:18Z jcowan: of course generic + will be called ++, but we can't have everything
2018-10-24T14:27:23Z jcowan: I don't think generic + is even a good idea
2018-10-24T14:27:29Z ecraven: I disagree :P
2018-10-24T14:27:37Z gwatt: ++ is not worse than +* or +&
2018-10-24T14:27:39Z ecraven: but I'm just playing around with algebraic things
2018-10-24T14:27:55Z catonano quit (Quit: catonano)
2018-10-24T14:27:57Z jcowan: I mean I have no trouble with you making it, but I don't think it belongs in the standard.
2018-10-24T14:28:15Z ecraven: then the problem will be that each of us makes it differently
2018-10-24T14:28:36Z ecraven: imho one of the main points of the standard is just to define the *names* things should have
2018-10-24T14:29:07Z oni-on-ion: map~
2018-10-24T14:29:27Z klovett quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2018-10-24T14:36:24Z jcowan: point
2018-10-24T14:36:45Z dbmikus joined #scheme
2018-10-24T14:37:19Z jcowan: oh wait, polyadic functions like + can't be generic, at least as currently defined
2018-10-24T14:37:38Z ecraven: ah, they actually should internally reduce to binary+ (which is generic)
2018-10-24T14:37:41Z jcowan: Dylan bypasses that by defining + in terms of binary-+
2018-10-24T14:37:43Z ecraven: at least that's the way dylan does it
2018-10-24T14:37:46Z ecraven: ;)
2018-10-24T14:37:56Z jcowan snickers
2018-10-24T14:38:47Z catonano joined #scheme
2018-10-24T14:39:58Z gwatt: but map and foreach are polyadic as well.
2018-10-24T14:40:12Z jcowan: That means part of the contract for binary++ is that every method must describe an associative fnction
2018-10-24T14:40:34Z ecraven: jcowan: it's like that in dylan too, right? any other examples?
2018-10-24T14:40:45Z jcowan: the generic versions won't be, I think, because mapping and for-eaching over unordered collections doesn't make sense in that context
2018-10-24T14:41:19Z jcowan: (set-map (lambda (x y) ...) set1 set2) would produce meaningless results
2018-10-24T14:41:48Z jcowan: might need two generic functions, one for all traversable collections and one for ordered collections specifically
2018-10-24T14:41:58Z jcowan: I have to check if that works
2018-10-24T14:42:16Z ecraven: we might also want a way to specify the target collection type
2018-10-24T14:42:31Z jcowan: that's a nightmare Scala went down and is now backing off from
2018-10-24T14:42:40Z ecraven: dylan has that too, I think
2018-10-24T14:42:53Z ecraven: in which other way do you deal with this then?
2018-10-24T14:42:55Z jcowan: CL map does that, and it cannot be made efficient
2018-10-24T14:43:06Z ecraven: so there's just no way to map something into something else directly?
2018-10-24T14:43:13Z jcowan: There's an idiom for converting using generators
2018-10-24T14:43:18Z rain2: hello
2018-10-24T14:43:35Z gwatt: Could have generic ->list ->vector converters
2018-10-24T14:43:54Z jcowan: SRFI 158: "The combination of make-for-each-generator and generator-unfold makes it possible to convert any collection that has a for-each procedure into any collection that has an unfold constructor. This generalizes such conversion procedures as list->vector and string->list."
2018-10-24T14:44:11Z rain2: jcowan: How are the generators implemented?
2018-10-24T14:44:17Z rain2: is it based on continuations?
2018-10-24T14:44:28Z jcowan: Typically no, on state
2018-10-24T14:44:53Z pierpal joined #scheme
2018-10-24T14:46:35Z daviid joined #scheme
2018-10-24T14:46:43Z jcowan: so you still have to allocate the homomorphic collection, but then you can convert it into nearly any other collection type without going through an intermediate
2018-10-24T14:46:57Z rain2: how is it done?
2018-10-24T14:49:38Z ecraven: jcowan: any plans on reversing the name and predicate arguments of (chibi generic)?
2018-10-24T14:49:54Z ecraven: (define-method (foo (number? a) (string? b)))  vs.  (define-method (foo (a number?) (b string?)))
2018-10-24T14:52:01Z jcowan: I hadn't thought of it, but it does look prettier
2018-10-24T14:52:26Z ecraven: it's what I use now (though I'm just finding out my implementation is slow as molasses)
2018-10-24T14:52:32Z daviid quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
2018-10-24T14:52:32Z jcowan: the main thing I want to add is a notion of predicate subsumption, with subsume! to declare subsumption and subsumes? to query it
2018-10-24T14:52:56Z ecraven: we've talked about this before, I'm still not sure going with a global database of subsumptions is the right thing to do
2018-10-24T14:53:07Z ecraven: the rules might depend on the actual gf, not be the same for all :-/
2018-10-24T14:53:25Z ecraven: (I've added an extra parameter to define-generic-function which takes an ordering for the predicates)
2018-10-24T14:53:26Z jcowan: predicates have to be pure functional, so why not?  Subsumption either holds between (mathematical) functions or it does not.
2018-10-24T14:53:42Z ecraven: of course, this means all the predicates have to be known at gf-declaration-time :-/
2018-10-24T14:54:33Z ecraven: jcowan: do you happen to have a link, document or code that describes how to efficiently implement such predicate-based dispatch?
2018-10-24T14:55:18Z ecraven: hm.. subsumption allows me to fully order methods whenever one is added, right?
2018-10-24T14:55:42Z ecraven: so at dispatch time, I can stop looking as soon as a method matches? no need to calculate all applicable methods, then sort them, then apply in order?
2018-10-24T14:55:58Z jcowan: Just so
2018-10-24T14:56:13Z jcowan: it's a generalization of subclassing
2018-10-24T14:56:18Z ecraven: so ideally, the discriminating function of the gf should be redefined each time a method is added?
2018-10-24T14:56:23Z jcowan: Yes
2018-10-24T14:56:45Z jcowan: Also there can be a memoization cache
2018-10-24T14:57:11Z jcowan: perhaps there needs to be the notion of a sealed gf so that all the methods are statically known
2018-10-24T14:57:23Z ecraven: is it possible to expand into (if (foo? a) (bar? b) (method-1 a b) (if (baaz? a) (quux? b) (method-2 a b) ...)) directly?
2018-10-24T14:57:41Z ecraven: that looks like macro expansion to me, but I cannot figure out how to actually do that
2018-10-24T14:57:45Z jcowan: If you have low-level macros, I suppose
2018-10-24T14:57:47Z jcowan shudders
2018-10-24T14:57:54Z ecraven: jcowan: well, it's bound to be faster than looping :P
2018-10-24T14:58:24Z jcowan: Yes, that's for sure, but even generating the body and eval'ing it is probably faster than looping, much less looping/sorting
2018-10-24T14:59:03Z jcowan: I am also undecided about the value of call-next-method, which even if it is a macro (as in Chibi) needs to be implemented by a low-level macro
2018-10-24T14:59:31Z ecraven: you mean you want to elide it?
2018-10-24T14:59:41Z ecraven: or you just don't know how to best implement it yet
2018-10-24T15:00:08Z ecraven: I've seen gf implementations that just made it a mandatory parameter for each method, so the signature has to include it
2018-10-24T15:00:09Z sz0_ quit
2018-10-24T15:00:21Z ecraven: (define-method (foo call-next-method (number? a) (string? b))
2018-10-24T15:00:23Z ecraven: )
2018-10-24T15:00:38Z sz0 joined #scheme
2018-10-24T15:03:30Z oni-on-ion: how does julia do it
2018-10-24T15:03:44Z sz0 quit (Client Quit)
2018-10-24T15:03:59Z sz0 joined #scheme
2018-10-24T15:16:03Z pjb joined #scheme
2018-10-24T15:21:45Z thevishy quit (Quit: thevishy)
2018-10-24T15:22:08Z pierpal quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2018-10-24T15:23:09Z catonano quit (Quit: catonano)
2018-10-24T15:24:18Z eddof13 joined #scheme
2018-10-24T15:25:02Z alezost quit (Quit: I live in GuixSD <http://www.gnu.org/s/guix> and Emacs <http://www.gnu.org/s/emacs>)
2018-10-24T15:27:04Z pie_ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2018-10-24T15:28:13Z robotoad joined #scheme
2018-10-24T15:49:21Z pjb quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2018-10-24T15:56:34Z pie_ joined #scheme
2018-10-24T15:57:10Z jcowan: oni-on-ion: I think it doesn't
2018-10-24T15:57:56Z jcowan: it also doesn't prioritize first argument over second argument (etc.) but just reports an ambiguous-method error at definition time
2018-10-24T16:02:17Z amz3` quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
2018-10-24T16:05:04Z ecraven: jcowan: subsumptions are an m-to-n relation, right? one predicate can subsume and be subsumed by multiple others?
2018-10-24T16:13:28Z jcowan: Oh sure.  Well, not just any m-to-n, it is a partial order lattice
2018-10-24T16:14:28Z jcowan: that guarantees that you can convert it to a total order by topological sort
2018-10-24T16:14:29Z oni-on-ion: isnt 1:n easier to type? or 1->[n] ?
2018-10-24T16:14:39Z jcowan: not really, see abovr
2018-10-24T16:15:14Z jcowan: I mean, you specify the subsumptions 1:1 at a time, but they have to add up to a lattice with object? at the top and nothing? at the bottom
2018-10-24T16:15:30Z oni-on-ion: m-to-n i mean []->1 or n:1 oops
2018-10-24T16:15:58Z oni-on-ion: (it was also more difficult to read because also m and n are so 'close', i got it backward !)
2018-10-24T16:15:58Z jcowan: the SRFI will recommend that systems with inheritance automatically install subsumptions
2018-10-24T16:16:24Z oni-on-ion: that like assumptions? real word?
2018-10-24T16:18:21Z jcowan: real word
2018-10-24T16:18:33Z ggole quit (Quit: ggole)
2018-10-24T16:20:00Z jcowan: it's usually used as an abstract noun, but there is precedent in the OED for using it as a concrete countable noun
2018-10-24T16:20:08Z jcowan: "Thus, if one were to say, ‘No man is wise in all things’, and another to respond, ‘But you are a man’, this proposition is a subsumption under the former." (1858)
2018-10-24T16:20:22Z jcowan: predicates of course are just propositions with a hole in them
2018-10-24T16:20:34Z ecraven: jcowan: is it (subsume! number? integer?) or the other way around?
2018-10-24T16:20:45Z jcowan: yeah, I always have trouble with that
2018-10-24T16:20:53Z jcowan: have been trying to find concrete examples
2018-10-24T16:20:55Z ecraven: also, should we discuss making things like zero? a total function? :D
2018-10-24T16:20:59Z oni-on-ion: jcowan: ohh! nice example, great quote too! ^_^
2018-10-24T16:21:06Z jcowan: I think it is as you say, but I often get confused
2018-10-24T16:21:27Z ecraven: "number subsumes integer" does make sense to my non-native ears
2018-10-24T16:21:28Z jcowan: yes, I am going to add a bunch of total functions for numbers
2018-10-24T16:21:34Z jcowan too
2018-10-24T16:21:53Z ecraven: do you ever idly consider not adding but changing the existing functions?
2018-10-24T16:22:22Z pierpal joined #scheme
2018-10-24T16:23:10Z muelleme joined #scheme
2018-10-24T16:23:24Z ecraven: how would a memoization cache work for predicate dispatch?
2018-10-24T16:23:30Z jcowan: yeah, it's so ugly to have to say (import (except (scheme base) ...))
2018-10-24T16:23:37Z jcowan: memoize the predicates themselves
2018-10-24T16:23:50Z jcowan: not dispatch necessarily
2018-10-24T16:24:00Z ecraven: hm.. I was assuming predicates are very cheap anyway
2018-10-24T16:24:17Z ecraven: not much to gain by memoizing zero?, positive? and negative? (for factorial)
2018-10-24T16:24:27Z ecraven: but memoizing the actual dispatch would be interesting
2018-10-24T16:24:30Z jcowan: Julia does have a trick (invoke list-of-types args ...) to call a specific method, but no concept of next most specific method
2018-10-24T16:25:06Z ecraven: I've totally ignored call-next-method for now.. I precalculate the discriminating function, and also precalculated the method-applicable? function, which seems to give ok performance
2018-10-24T16:25:08Z jcowan: no, but memoizing miller-rabin-prime? makes sense
2018-10-24T16:25:10Z pjb joined #scheme
2018-10-24T16:25:34Z jcowan: (indeed, the Gauche implementation pre-memoizes a bunch of small primes)
2018-10-24T16:28:09Z jcowan: small primes being those less than 341550071728321
2018-10-24T16:31:02Z jcowan: at least in the 64-bit implementation
2018-10-24T16:32:19Z ecraven: hm.. I guess the best you could do would be memoizing the actual parameters -> which method is called.. which doesn't sound so useful
2018-10-24T16:32:49Z ecraven: ah, you mean memoizing the results of (predicate value) across methods in general, not just for a specific call?
2018-10-24T16:45:24Z ecraven: so I'm guessing the subsumption code should eliminate transitive subsumptions, to make things easier?
2018-10-24T16:45:45Z muelleme quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2018-10-24T16:48:53Z ecraven: could call-next-method just be a syntax parameter?
2018-10-24T16:48:59Z ecraven: (as in srfi-139)
2018-10-24T16:50:55Z ecraven: so, how do we add keyword parameters to this predicate dispatch? :D :P
2018-10-24T16:51:52Z InverseRhombus quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2018-10-24T16:55:11Z jcowan: maybe just do forward chaining to create all transitive subsumptions
2018-10-24T16:55:26Z jcowan: the sample impl doesn't have to be efficient, but I will discuss efficient implementations in the SRFI
2018-10-24T16:56:44Z jcowan: I may have to add keyword params to "banned by chair fiat (subject to appeal)" list
2018-10-24T16:58:03Z jcowan: I'm still finalizing that list, but it currently looks like this:
2018-10-24T16:58:41Z pierpal quit (Quit: Poof)
2018-10-24T16:59:01Z pierpal joined #scheme
2018-10-24T16:59:17Z jcowan: Classes (but generic functions are OK), Record inheritance (single or multiple), Foreign function interfaces, Custom I/O ports, scsh, Aspects and advice (method combination), Readtables, R6RS preposterous MUSTard
2018-10-24T17:01:47Z klovett_ quit
2018-10-24T17:03:25Z pierpal quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2018-10-24T17:03:44Z pierpal joined #scheme
2018-10-24T17:10:06Z ecraven: hm.. custom i/o ports would have been nice ;)
2018-10-24T17:10:12Z ecraven: but I totally understand that list
2018-10-24T17:10:33Z ecraven: I mean, everything that is deducible by transitivity should not actually be part of the subsumption database, I think?
2018-10-24T17:11:31Z ecraven: do you already have code for the sample implementation?
2018-10-24T17:13:06Z acarrico quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2018-10-24T17:13:18Z rain2: when I think about what you can do with call/cc it really seems like the language feature wasn't thought through
2018-10-24T17:13:32Z ecraven: why?
2018-10-24T17:13:43Z ecraven: I mean, would you prefer to be able to do less?
2018-10-24T17:13:49Z ecraven: that way lies Pascal :P
2018-10-24T17:14:01Z acarrico joined #scheme
2018-10-24T17:14:02Z rain2: you can basically do 1 thing with it (generators, exceptions, nondeterminism, ..), and then you have to stop
2018-10-24T17:14:14Z rain2: because if you implement 2 different features with it (I think) they do not interact correctly
2018-10-24T17:15:31Z rain2: multiprompt continuations let you implement multiple features that can compose
2018-10-24T17:16:30Z ecraven: jcowan: should there be a way to find out whether there *is* a next-method?
2018-10-24T17:25:28Z Riastradh quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2018-10-24T17:32:02Z sleffy joined #scheme
2018-10-24T17:32:02Z sleffy quit (Client Quit)
2018-10-24T17:34:02Z linack joined #scheme
2018-10-24T17:34:34Z InverseRhombus joined #scheme
2018-10-24T17:34:46Z Riastradh joined #scheme
2018-10-24T17:35:27Z linack quit (Client Quit)
2018-10-24T17:42:55Z klovett joined #scheme
2018-10-24T17:50:18Z catonano joined #scheme
2018-10-24T18:00:04Z jcowan: ecraven: No code, no spec even
2018-10-24T18:00:56Z jcowan: The Scheme standards do "do less" than CL
2018-10-24T18:01:02Z jcowan: Scheme is much less dynamic
2018-10-24T18:05:20Z rain2: why was call/cc added to scheme?
2018-10-24T18:06:42Z ski: rain2 : .. in fact, you can reflect any monadic effect, using continuations & mutabler state (or equivalently composable continuations), so that it appears as a language built-in side-effect
2018-10-24T18:09:54Z ski: rain2 : see "Reflecting Monads" by Andrzej Filinski. e.g. if you define a parser monad, you can then reflect it, allowing you to state stuff like `(let* ((_ (open-bracket)) (exp0 (expr)) (_ (colon)) (exp1 (expr)) (_ (close-bracket))) (make-range exp0 exp1))'
2018-10-24T18:14:13Z jcowan: it's a first-class version of catch/throw, such that the throw tags (procedures in Scheme) have unbounded extent.  R0RS/R1RS Scheme simply had a special form (catch x expr ...) such that x was bound to a procedure that would make the catch exit, no matter if it had exited before.  Call/cc is just a "proceduralization" of that.
2018-10-24T18:15:00Z jcowan: https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/nyf4bvat/
2018-10-24T18:15:13Z jcowan: note line 4
2018-10-24T18:29:30Z ski: rain2 : <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Scheme_programming_language#Carl_Hewitt,_the_Actor_model,_and_the_birth_of_Scheme>
2018-10-24T18:29:34Z rudybot: http://teensy.info/fOH9CTG7XU
2018-10-24T18:29:53Z ecraven: hm.. chez is rather abysmal on code that uses lots of floats :-/
2018-10-24T18:30:38Z ski: "They soon concluded Actors were essentially closures that never return but instead invoke a continuation, and thus they decided that the closure and the Actor were, for the purposes of their investigation, essentially identical concepts."
2018-10-24T18:33:06Z oni-on-ion: =) similar to erlang actors ?
2018-10-24T18:34:24Z qu1j0t3: (erlang calls them processes?)
2018-10-24T18:34:52Z oni-on-ion: hmm. mostly actors, afaik; processes are closer to erlang 'ports'
2018-10-24T18:36:36Z qu1j0t3: no, i mean the erlang term for "actor" is process?
2018-10-24T18:37:44Z oni-on-ion: oh, basically. lightweight thread with mailbox and nothing shared
2018-10-24T18:38:00Z oni-on-ion: er process is generally heavier weight, uh
2018-10-24T18:38:00Z qu1j0t3: yes
2018-10-24T18:38:05Z oni-on-ion: like fork() =)
2018-10-24T18:38:08Z qu1j0t3: not Unix process.
2018-10-24T18:38:18Z qu1j0t3: Erlang calls these lightweight ("green threads") processes.
2018-10-24T18:38:27Z qu1j0t3: the word is of course overloaded.
2018-10-24T18:38:50Z oni-on-ion: yes, you are right. they use the same term process=actor
2018-10-24T18:38:54Z oni-on-ion: yep ^_^
2018-10-24T18:38:55Z qu1j0t3 nods
2018-10-24T18:39:17Z oni-on-ion: erlang is real nice with the VM's and the nodes being able to talk seemlessly and safely; swi prolog is very similar these days
2018-10-24T18:39:20Z lavaflow_ joined #scheme
2018-10-24T18:39:28Z oni-on-ion: especially with 'pengines' and 'swi-erlang'
2018-10-24T18:39:34Z TGO joined #scheme
2018-10-24T18:40:34Z ski . o O ( <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Termite_scheme#Termite_Scheme> )
2018-10-24T18:40:57Z catonano_ joined #scheme
2018-10-24T18:41:32Z dbmikus_ joined #scheme
2018-10-24T18:41:42Z nckx- joined #scheme
2018-10-24T18:41:43Z davl_ joined #scheme
2018-10-24T18:41:58Z jao quit (Disconnected by services)
2018-10-24T18:42:12Z yosafbridge joined #scheme
2018-10-24T18:42:36Z jao joined #scheme
2018-10-24T18:43:30Z tolja_ joined #scheme
2018-10-24T18:43:40Z ft__ joined #scheme
2018-10-24T18:44:19Z eagleflo_ joined #scheme
2018-10-24T18:48:04Z Kkiro_ joined #scheme
2018-10-24T18:48:28Z Kkiro quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2018-10-24T18:48:51Z catonano quit (*.net *.split)
2018-10-24T18:48:51Z acarrico quit (*.net *.split)
2018-10-24T18:48:51Z pierpal quit (*.net *.split)
2018-10-24T18:48:51Z dbmikus quit (*.net *.split)
2018-10-24T18:48:51Z TheGreekOwl quit (*.net *.split)
2018-10-24T18:48:51Z lavaflow quit (*.net *.split)
2018-10-24T18:48:51Z Guest13389 quit (*.net *.split)
2018-10-24T18:48:51Z nckx quit (*.net *.split)
2018-10-24T18:48:51Z gnomon quit (*.net *.split)
2018-10-24T18:48:51Z flerovite quit (*.net *.split)
2018-10-24T18:48:51Z ft quit (*.net *.split)
2018-10-24T18:48:51Z tolja quit (*.net *.split)
2018-10-24T18:48:52Z eagleflo quit (*.net *.split)
2018-10-24T18:48:52Z gabot quit (*.net *.split)
2018-10-24T18:48:52Z davl quit (*.net *.split)
2018-10-24T18:48:52Z yosafbridge` quit (*.net *.split)
2018-10-24T18:48:52Z Kooda quit (*.net *.split)
2018-10-24T18:48:52Z davl_ is now known as davl
2018-10-24T18:48:59Z ft__ is now known as ft
2018-10-24T18:49:43Z flerovite joined #scheme
2018-10-24T18:50:06Z Guest13389 joined #scheme
2018-10-24T18:51:30Z acarrico joined #scheme
2018-10-24T18:54:34Z Kooda joined #scheme
2018-10-24T18:54:34Z gnomon joined #scheme
2018-10-24T18:54:34Z pierpal joined #scheme
2018-10-24T18:54:52Z gabot joined #scheme
2018-10-24T18:58:51Z daviid joined #scheme
2018-10-24T18:58:59Z oni-on-ion quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
2018-10-24T18:59:24Z lambda-11235 joined #scheme
2018-10-24T18:59:34Z pierpal quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2018-10-24T18:59:43Z pierpal joined #scheme
2018-10-24T19:06:21Z lavaflow_ is now known as lavaflow
2018-10-24T19:10:03Z acarrico quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2018-10-24T19:11:00Z oni-on-ion joined #scheme
2018-10-24T19:21:51Z rain2: termite scheme is pretty amazing
2018-10-24T19:22:00Z rain2: the whole idea of serializing closures and continuations
2018-10-24T19:22:06Z rain2: i don't know how it's implemented
2018-10-24T19:22:11Z rain2: the ocaml library delimcc does it too
2018-10-24T19:25:21Z eddof13 quit (Quit: eddof13)
2018-10-24T19:33:30Z amz3 quit (Changing host)
2018-10-24T19:33:30Z amz3 joined #scheme
2018-10-24T19:33:34Z amz3: http://community.schemewiki.org/ is back
2018-10-24T19:34:13Z wasamasa: wee
2018-10-24T19:34:20Z wasamasa: what about readscheme?
2018-10-24T19:34:46Z amz3: readscheme?
2018-10-24T19:35:04Z wasamasa: it's in the /topic
2018-10-24T19:35:38Z rain2: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ju3KKu_mthg
2018-10-24T19:35:42Z rain2: Continuations: The Swiss Army Knife of Flow Control
2018-10-24T19:49:38Z xkapastel quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity)
2018-10-24T19:51:24Z rain2: i wonder if you could mix goroutines and continuations
2018-10-24T20:02:07Z xkapastel joined #scheme
2018-10-24T20:06:00Z ft quit (Quit: Reconnecting)
2018-10-24T20:06:09Z ft joined #scheme
2018-10-24T20:07:27Z klovett quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2018-10-24T20:08:25Z klovett joined #scheme
2018-10-24T20:09:08Z jcowan: Devil if I know what happens if you do.  Ask on #chicken
2018-10-24T20:19:00Z tomasmu left #scheme
2018-10-24T20:24:26Z catonano_ quit (Quit: catonano_)
2018-10-24T20:24:55Z acarrico joined #scheme
2018-10-24T20:27:28Z ngz joined #scheme
2018-10-24T20:43:21Z Zipheir: amz3: Awesome, glad that's back.
2018-10-24T20:44:33Z eddof13 joined #scheme
2018-10-24T20:45:10Z zachk joined #scheme
2018-10-24T20:49:24Z jcowan: ecraven: You should add the new s9fes to your benchmarks, now that it is a byte compiler.
2018-10-24T20:53:21Z zachk quit (Changing host)
2018-10-24T20:53:21Z zachk joined #scheme
2018-10-24T20:53:32Z mejja joined #scheme
2018-10-24T21:00:27Z Zipheir: jcowan: Cool. By their account it's now much faster. I've always admired the code quality of s9, if not the performance.
2018-10-24T21:00:45Z jcowan nods
2018-10-24T21:01:06Z mejja: ?
2018-10-24T21:01:45Z ngz quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2018-10-24T21:01:59Z mejja: it's a joke..
2018-10-24T21:03:31Z Zipheir: mejja: what is?
2018-10-24T21:03:42Z mejja: S9
2018-10-24T21:03:55Z Zipheir: Why?
2018-10-24T21:05:08Z mejja: read the source luke
2018-10-24T21:05:50Z Zipheir: I have, a while ago. I don't recall anything funny about it, so you'll need to be more specific.
2018-10-24T21:05:51Z civodul joined #scheme
2018-10-24T21:06:19Z rain2: http://t3x.org/s9fes/index.html is not a joke
2018-10-24T21:06:24Z rain2: mejja must be thinking of something else
2018-10-24T21:06:35Z catonano joined #scheme
2018-10-24T21:09:32Z muelleme joined #scheme
2018-10-24T21:10:46Z acarrico quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2018-10-24T21:14:28Z lambda-11235 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2018-10-24T21:16:14Z jcowan: He says "now in the same ballpark with Chicken Scheme" for symbolic computation
2018-10-24T21:16:17Z jcowan: presumably he means csi
2018-10-24T21:17:10Z rain2: I would like to see where my scheme places but im too lazy to support all the stuff needed for running the benchmarks...
2018-10-24T21:39:49Z turbofail: i see the text adventure maze that used to lead to the s9 source has been removed
2018-10-24T21:40:42Z aeth: rain2: what benchmarks?
2018-10-24T21:41:24Z rain2: https://ecraven.github.io/r7rs-benchmarks/
2018-10-24T21:44:54Z aeth: ah
2018-10-24T21:51:31Z terpri_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2018-10-24T21:51:44Z Zipheir: turbofail: Was that a literal or metaphoric text adventure?
2018-10-24T21:51:50Z terpri_ joined #scheme
2018-10-24T21:52:34Z turbofail quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2018-10-24T21:54:11Z smazga: Zipheir: http://t3x.org/s9game/index.html
2018-10-24T21:57:58Z klovett quit
2018-10-24T21:58:13Z Zipheir: smazga: Fun, ty :)
2018-10-24T21:58:54Z catonano quit (Quit: catonano)
2018-10-24T22:00:16Z TGO quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2018-10-24T22:03:27Z eddof13 quit (Quit: eddof13)
2018-10-24T22:04:51Z Zipheir: Hmm, I failed the quiz (probably because I said R5RS was the last useful scheme report instead of R4) and got kicked out of the computer lab. Tough adventure.
2018-10-24T22:07:24Z jonaslund joined #scheme
2018-10-24T22:07:36Z eddof13 joined #scheme
2018-10-24T22:08:10Z TheGreekOwl joined #scheme
2018-10-24T22:13:00Z muelleme quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2018-10-24T22:13:47Z jao quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2018-10-24T22:16:17Z jao joined #scheme
2018-10-24T22:27:40Z civodul quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 26.1))
2018-10-24T22:29:05Z smazga quit (Quit: leaving)
2018-10-24T22:33:07Z turbofail joined #scheme
2018-10-24T22:42:28Z pierpal quit (Quit: Poof)
2018-10-24T22:42:45Z pierpal joined #scheme
2018-10-24T22:48:29Z martylake joined #scheme
2018-10-24T22:52:07Z dbmikus_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2018-10-24T22:59:39Z robotoad quit (Quit: robotoad)
2018-10-24T23:01:01Z robotoad joined #scheme
2018-10-24T23:02:04Z robotoad quit (Client Quit)
2018-10-24T23:06:21Z TheGreekOwl quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2018-10-24T23:07:41Z jao quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2018-10-24T23:09:16Z muelleme joined #scheme
2018-10-24T23:10:53Z jao joined #scheme
2018-10-24T23:11:23Z robotoad joined #scheme
2018-10-24T23:13:51Z muelleme quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2018-10-24T23:14:25Z klovett joined #scheme
2018-10-24T23:15:49Z TheGreekOwl joined #scheme
2018-10-24T23:16:21Z eddof13 quit (Quit: eddof13)
2018-10-24T23:17:56Z EternalZenith joined #scheme
2018-10-24T23:22:13Z robotoad quit (Quit: robotoad)
2018-10-24T23:25:20Z robotoad joined #scheme
2018-10-24T23:27:44Z pjb quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
2018-10-24T23:56:34Z jcowan: R4RS is what s9fes supports.  No macros
2018-10-24T23:57:12Z jcowan: but it does have eval, which R4RS does not.
2018-10-24T23:58:11Z jcowan: Actually it has syntax-rules as well, so it is in fact R5RS.
2018-10-24T23:58:17Z jcowan snickers
2018-10-25T00:03:33Z pjb joined #scheme
2018-10-25T00:09:16Z dbmikus_ joined #scheme
2018-10-25T00:14:08Z klovett_ joined #scheme
2018-10-25T00:18:12Z klovett quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2018-10-25T00:25:14Z muelleme joined #scheme
2018-10-25T00:31:27Z muelleme quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2018-10-25T00:36:03Z pjb quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2018-10-25T00:44:53Z webshinra quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2018-10-25T00:46:56Z zachk quit (Quit: Leaving)
2018-10-25T00:47:31Z robotoad quit (Max SendQ exceeded)
2018-10-25T00:50:17Z robotoad joined #scheme
2018-10-25T01:06:45Z mejja quit (Quit: mejja)
2018-10-25T01:18:20Z robotoad quit (Max SendQ exceeded)
2018-10-25T01:31:22Z klovett joined #scheme
2018-10-25T01:32:02Z robotoad joined #scheme
2018-10-25T01:34:27Z klovett_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2018-10-25T01:48:13Z robotoad quit (Max SendQ exceeded)
2018-10-25T01:51:09Z EternalZenith quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2018-10-25T01:57:31Z acarrico joined #scheme
2018-10-25T02:07:17Z robotoad joined #scheme
2018-10-25T02:33:25Z pjb joined #scheme
2018-10-25T02:37:19Z robotoad quit (Quit: robotoad)
2018-10-25T03:03:57Z robotoad joined #scheme
2018-10-25T03:06:36Z pjb quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2018-10-25T03:15:29Z montokapro joined #scheme
2018-10-25T03:50:21Z montokapro quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2018-10-25T03:54:47Z Riastradh: jcowan: I updated logit and logistic to be better, at the same link I gave you before, unless it has a commit id in it, in which case I need to give you a new link.
2018-10-25T03:55:23Z Riastradh: They're not exactly rounded but they're within 10 eps for all inputs.
2018-10-25T03:56:02Z jcowan: http://git.savannah.gnu.org/cgit/mit-scheme.git/commit/?id=8decee26f13f3ef09abef2662d2c92b87aeef04c
2018-10-25T03:56:24Z jcowan: http://git.savannah.gnu.org/cgit/mit-scheme.git/commit/?id=575cd55c67b5453939d5753a7deb4017daabd60f for the tests
2018-10-25T03:56:41Z Riastradh: jcowan: OK, here's a link that'll be good until someone next commits changes to arith.scm: http://git.savannah.gnu.org/cgit/mit-scheme.git/tree/src/runtime/arith.scm#n1974
2018-10-25T03:57:09Z Riastradh: jcowan: I added a few more tests: http://git.savannah.gnu.org/cgit/mit-scheme.git/tree/tests/runtime/test-arith.scm#n193
2018-10-25T03:58:38Z jcowan: Thanks.  Saved at https://bitbucket.org/cowan/r7rs-wg1-infra/src/default/LogisticRiastradh.md
2018-10-25T04:00:39Z jao quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2018-10-25T04:14:39Z robotoad quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2018-10-25T04:16:59Z robotoad joined #scheme
2018-10-25T04:27:49Z pie_ quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
2018-10-25T04:34:14Z pjb joined #scheme
2018-10-25T04:53:02Z pie_ joined #scheme
2018-10-25T04:53:44Z Inline quit (Quit: Leaving)
2018-10-25T04:55:16Z skapata quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2018-10-25T05:04:12Z daviid quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2018-10-25T05:08:28Z pjb quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2018-10-25T05:14:37Z dbmikus_ quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
2018-10-25T05:30:15Z pierpal quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2018-10-25T05:32:55Z robotoad quit (Quit: robotoad)
2018-10-25T05:36:26Z skapata joined #scheme
2018-10-25T05:55:38Z pierpal joined #scheme
2018-10-25T05:57:31Z pierpal quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2018-10-25T05:59:22Z pierpal joined #scheme
2018-10-25T06:17:05Z catonano joined #scheme
2018-10-25T06:37:22Z jcowan quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity)
2018-10-25T06:39:54Z xkapastel quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity)
2018-10-25T06:45:27Z muelleme joined #scheme
2018-10-25T06:57:58Z Zipheir quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2018-10-25T07:01:06Z muelleme quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2018-10-25T07:12:43Z Zipheir joined #scheme
2018-10-25T07:32:35Z amz3` joined #scheme
2018-10-25T07:51:17Z skapata quit (Quit: Ĝis!)
2018-10-25T08:02:03Z ivanshmakov quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2018-10-25T08:19:27Z martylake quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2018-10-25T08:23:12Z iskander quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2018-10-25T08:31:36Z iskander joined #scheme
2018-10-25T08:33:39Z webshinra joined #scheme
2018-10-25T08:36:35Z vyzo quit (Quit: Leaving.)
2018-10-25T08:39:41Z razzy joined #scheme
2018-10-25T08:47:09Z TheGreekOwl quit (Quit: I must go, my planet needs me.)
2018-10-25T08:50:21Z catonano quit (Quit: catonano)
2018-10-25T08:56:43Z catonano joined #scheme
2018-10-25T09:07:16Z lockywolf joined #scheme
2018-10-25T09:16:31Z vyzo joined #scheme
2018-10-25T09:56:40Z martylake joined #scheme
2018-10-25T10:02:19Z catonano quit (Quit: catonano)
2018-10-25T10:06:29Z ggole joined #scheme
2018-10-25T10:08:27Z pierpal quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2018-10-25T10:31:19Z jcowan joined #scheme
2018-10-25T10:34:14Z eagleflo_ is now known as eagleflo
2018-10-25T10:57:54Z lritter joined #scheme
2018-10-25T11:26:56Z lockywolf_ joined #scheme
2018-10-25T11:29:28Z lockywolf quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2018-10-25T11:35:05Z martylake quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
2018-10-25T11:46:19Z klovett quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2018-10-25T11:47:02Z klovett joined #scheme
2018-10-25T11:53:34Z remix2000 joined #scheme
2018-10-25T12:05:37Z wigust joined #scheme
2018-10-25T12:07:29Z catonano joined #scheme
2018-10-25T12:09:00Z wigust- quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2018-10-25T12:19:16Z lockywolf_ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2018-10-25T12:42:19Z pierpal joined #scheme
2018-10-25T12:43:36Z martylake joined #scheme
2018-10-25T12:46:53Z jao joined #scheme
2018-10-25T12:49:57Z klovett quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2018-10-25T12:50:13Z klovett joined #scheme
2018-10-25T12:55:49Z pie__ joined #scheme
2018-10-25T12:56:37Z pie__ quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2018-10-25T12:56:51Z pie_ quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2018-10-25T12:57:03Z pie__ joined #scheme
2018-10-25T13:02:07Z amz3` quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
2018-10-25T13:18:46Z averell quit (Quit: .)
2018-10-25T13:23:16Z xkapastel joined #scheme
2018-10-25T13:27:54Z averell joined #scheme
2018-10-25T13:28:46Z ngz joined #scheme
2018-10-25T13:37:56Z martylake quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
2018-10-25T13:39:15Z catonano quit (Quit: catonano)
2018-10-25T13:39:40Z catonano joined #scheme
2018-10-25T13:56:38Z ngz quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2018-10-25T14:07:48Z pierpal quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2018-10-25T14:10:46Z alezost joined #scheme
2018-10-25T14:13:13Z Inline joined #scheme
2018-10-25T14:17:11Z ngz joined #scheme
2018-10-25T14:22:42Z ngz quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2018-10-25T14:27:05Z martylake joined #scheme
2018-10-25T14:31:23Z dbmikus_ joined #scheme
2018-10-25T14:36:04Z dbmikus_ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2018-10-25T14:36:48Z dbmikus_ joined #scheme
2018-10-25T14:38:57Z lritter quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2018-10-25T14:53:16Z Riastradh: jcowan: You should also have a good uniform [0,1] sampler that covers the entire output space with the correct distribution.
2018-10-25T14:54:44Z Riastradh: Just need to draw an exponent with geometric distribution, truncated at -emin + p, and >p+1 bits for the fractional part of the significand with uniform distribution, set the least significant bit of the significand to 1, and round.
2018-10-25T14:54:47Z alezost quit (Quit: I live in GuixSD <http://www.gnu.org/s/guix> and Emacs <http://www.gnu.org/s/emacs>)
2018-10-25T14:54:53Z amz3` joined #scheme
2018-10-25T14:57:39Z pie__ quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2018-10-25T15:00:00Z Inline quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2018-10-25T15:03:34Z ski . o O ( "The Swine Before Perl" (talk) by Shriram Krishnamurthi in 2001-11 at <https://cs.brown.edu/~sk/Publications/Talks/SwineBeforePerl/> )
2018-10-25T15:03:49Z ski hadn't heard/seen that one before ..
2018-10-25T15:04:16Z ski: (though i had seen the title, somewhere (LtU ?))
2018-10-25T15:07:03Z Inline joined #scheme
2018-10-25T15:13:28Z pierpal joined #scheme
2018-10-25T15:15:10Z smazga joined #scheme
2018-10-25T15:22:12Z pie__ joined #scheme
2018-10-25T15:24:29Z pierpal quit (Quit: Poof)
2018-10-25T15:24:51Z pierpal joined #scheme
2018-10-25T15:33:39Z dbmikus_ quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2018-10-25T16:00:36Z dbmikus_ joined #scheme
2018-10-25T16:02:15Z johnjay joined #scheme
2018-10-25T16:03:58Z eddof13 joined #scheme
2018-10-25T16:05:39Z johnjay quit (Client Quit)
2018-10-25T16:05:51Z dsp quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
2018-10-25T16:14:36Z acarrico quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2018-10-25T16:22:16Z acarrico joined #scheme
2018-10-25T16:26:45Z Kkiro joined #scheme
2018-10-25T16:26:45Z Kkiro quit (Changing host)
2018-10-25T16:26:45Z Kkiro joined #scheme
2018-10-25T16:27:02Z Kkiro_ quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2018-10-25T16:27:07Z pierpal quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2018-10-25T16:31:05Z pierpal joined #scheme
2018-10-25T16:34:40Z jcowan: Riastradh: I haven't looked at any code for that yet, but I do have a spec (based on Gauche)
2018-10-25T16:36:40Z amz3` quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2018-10-25T16:39:48Z pjb joined #scheme
2018-10-25T16:40:59Z Riastradh: jcowan: Here's some code: https://mumble.net/~campbell/js/random/uniform_01.js
2018-10-25T16:42:06Z martylake quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2018-10-25T16:42:38Z erkin joined #scheme
2018-10-25T16:45:58Z vyzo quit (Quit: Leaving.)
2018-10-25T16:46:06Z Riastradh: jcowan: I don't see logic in Gauche that has a plausible correct uniform [0,1] sampler -- what's the spec?
2018-10-25T16:46:20Z Riastradh: (Cursory search, could be missing something.)
2018-10-25T16:46:56Z jcowan: SRFI 27 + https://bitbucket.org/cowan/r7rs-wg1-infra/src/default/AdvancedRandomGauche.html
2018-10-25T16:47:09Z jcowan: I take it that the one in SRFI 27 is borked?
2018-10-25T16:48:44Z Riastradh: SRFI 27 doesn't say very much, and the implementation isn't very good.
2018-10-25T16:50:46Z jcowan: I meant the implementation
2018-10-25T16:52:09Z jcowan: there is also the description in CLtL at https://www.cs.cmu.edu/Groups/AI/html/cltl/clm/node133.html
2018-10-25T16:54:15Z Riastradh: None of the advice here gives a correct uniform [0,1] floating-point sampler.
2018-10-25T16:55:13Z Riastradh: If you take the uniform distribution on real numbers in [0,1] (or (0,1), same result), and round it to the nearest floating-point number, the resulting distribution on the outputs is the natural notion of a floating-point uniform distribution on [0,1].
2018-10-25T16:55:34Z Riastradh: That is, the probability of each floating-point number is the width of the interval of real numbers that are rounded to it.
2018-10-25T16:56:31Z Riastradh: If you use 1/n where n is a uniform random integer in {0, 1, ..., 2^k - 1} for small k like 64, you're excluding values that have small but not negligible probability.
2018-10-25T16:57:51Z Riastradh: The right way is almost to pick an exponent with geometric distribution, and a (normal) significand whose fractional part is uniformly distributed.
2018-10-25T16:59:13Z Riastradh: If you just pick the fractional part with uniform distribution, then it will be as if you sampled from [0, 1 - eps/4) rather than [0, 1] or (0, 1).  So you need to pick the fractional part _longer_ than full precision (say, 63 bits rather than 52 bits), to force rounding.
2018-10-25T17:00:18Z Riastradh: Except then it will be biased to `even' results (i.e. results whose least significant bit is zero), because there is a nonzero probability of ties -- but the subset of [0,1] that cause ties has measure zero.  Fortunately you can break ties by just always setting the lsb to 1.
2018-10-25T17:01:13Z Riastradh: If you really need a _floating-point_ number in (0,1), you can just do rejection sampling and reject 1.  (0 already has negligible probability -- <2^-126 even in binary32 with flush-to-zero semantics.)
2018-10-25T17:01:46Z Riastradh: Also you should use a cryptographic PRNG for your bit sampler.
2018-10-25T17:02:14Z Riastradh: (for everything, not just the bit sampler used to pick the exponent and significand in a [0,1] sampler)
2018-10-25T17:04:26Z jcowan: Thanks
2018-10-25T17:06:08Z jcowan: Presumably you need to exclude the inf/nan exponent by rejection as well
2018-10-25T17:06:24Z Riastradh: inf/nan exponent?
2018-10-25T17:07:33Z Riastradh: What I mean is you just pick an exponent z in {-1, -2, -3, ...} with geometric distribution, and a (say) 64-bit integer s, and compute (s | 0x8000000000000001) * 2^{-64 + e}.
2018-10-25T17:07:38Z Riastradh: exponent e
2018-10-25T17:08:32Z Riastradh: (If you get e < -1088, you can stop and return zero, but really that means either you have a bug or you shoulda invested in the lottery.)
2018-10-25T17:08:45Z jcowan: Ah
2018-10-25T17:09:09Z Riastradh: No need to futz with the bits in the physical representation of the floating-point format.
2018-10-25T17:09:29Z catonano quit (Quit: catonano)
2018-10-25T17:10:00Z Riastradh: (64-bit unsigned integer s)
2018-10-25T17:10:50Z muelleme joined #scheme
2018-10-25T17:12:01Z Riastradh: And, to be clear, I mean:  round_to_double(s | 0x8000000000000001) * 2^{-64 + e}.
2018-10-25T17:12:55Z johnjay joined #scheme
2018-10-25T17:13:23Z Riastradh: One particular advantage of this approach is that it is always safe to compute log(x) and 1/x, so you never have to add edge cases for that.
2018-10-25T17:13:24Z Zipheir: ski: ty. Looks like a fun talk.
2018-10-25T17:13:36Z Riastradh: (even though it is technically supported on [0,1])
2018-10-25T17:14:20Z Riastradh: It's not safe to compute log1p(-x) or 1/(1 - x), so if you really need to do that, you can do rejection sampling to reject 1.  But I recommend keeping the uniform [0,1] sampler as the basic object that everyone should support.
2018-10-25T17:18:08Z pierpal quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2018-10-25T17:19:33Z catonano joined #scheme
2018-10-25T17:21:46Z daviid joined #scheme
2018-10-25T17:22:05Z qu1j0t3: Riastradh: why does it need to be cryptographic? so as not to risk any compositional effects?
2018-10-25T17:24:00Z Riastradh: qu1j0t3: Safer that way.  Don't have to worry about garbage like `the high order bits have more randomness than the low order bits'.  People will use it to generate keys whether it's sensible or not.  (SRFI 27 even mentions cryptography explicitly, which will lead people astray into thinking the SRFI 27 code is fit for it.)
2018-10-25T17:24:27Z Riastradh: Also if it helps rid the world of Mersenne twisters, all the better.
2018-10-25T17:25:12Z thevishy joined #scheme
2018-10-25T17:25:44Z qu1j0t3: Riastradh: any thoughts on PCG Random?
2018-10-25T17:25:46Z vyzo joined #scheme
2018-10-25T17:36:15Z klovett quit
2018-10-25T17:41:00Z muelleme quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2018-10-25T17:45:11Z Riastradh: qu1j0t3: Doesn't strike me as terribly serious.  It hasn't had any competent attention as far as I can tell.
2018-10-25T17:47:57Z Riastradh: I would suggest using s' || x = ChaCha_s(0), where s is the initial 32-byte seed, s' is the updated 32-byte seed, and x is the 32-byte output.  If you need to generate a long output, do that and then ChaCha_x(0) || ChaCha_x(1) || ....
2018-10-25T17:48:09Z Riastradh: (Here ChaCha is ChaCha20.)
2018-10-25T17:48:35Z thevishy_ joined #scheme
2018-10-25T17:49:48Z thevishy quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2018-10-25T17:50:31Z qu1j0t3 nods
2018-10-25T17:52:32Z webshinra quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2018-10-25T17:54:12Z thevishy_ quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2018-10-25T17:56:29Z thevishy joined #scheme
2018-10-25T17:58:27Z skapata joined #scheme
2018-10-25T17:58:40Z TheGreekOwl joined #scheme
2018-10-25T18:03:00Z daviid quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2018-10-25T18:03:01Z daviid` joined #scheme
2018-10-25T18:03:06Z daviid` quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2018-10-25T18:05:31Z daviid joined #scheme
2018-10-25T18:16:19Z zachk joined #scheme
2018-10-25T18:16:33Z Riastradh: This is safe to derive multiple streams from -- you can safely use x as the seed for a new ChaCha -- and it has a state 1/10 the size of the Mersenne twister and it also doesn't suck, so it's good for reliable reproducible computations too.
2018-10-25T18:17:27Z Riastradh: Zero initialization cost too.
2018-10-25T18:17:50Z Riastradh: jcowan: I also recommend that you separate (a) drawing a seed from an ambient entropy source from (b) everything else in the API which should take a state as an argument, so that people are more tempted to thread states or seeds through their code than to make their code nondeterministic and nonreproducible.
2018-10-25T18:19:09Z klovett joined #scheme
2018-10-25T18:19:16Z zachk quit (Changing host)
2018-10-25T18:19:16Z zachk joined #scheme
2018-10-25T18:19:29Z qu1j0t3: ^^
2018-10-25T18:19:44Z qu1j0t3: very much so
2018-10-25T18:24:42Z thevishy quit (Quit: thevishy)
2018-10-25T18:26:02Z alexshendi joined #scheme
2018-10-25T18:42:55Z dsp joined #scheme
2018-10-25T18:50:03Z ggole quit (Quit: ggole)
2018-10-25T18:52:36Z terpri joined #scheme
2018-10-25T18:52:48Z pierpal joined #scheme
2018-10-25T18:54:54Z terpri_ quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2018-10-25T18:59:04Z catonano quit (Quit: catonano)
2018-10-25T19:17:24Z catonano joined #scheme
2018-10-25T19:19:38Z eddof13 quit (Quit: eddof13)
2018-10-25T19:20:04Z jcowan: Riastradh: Nondeterminism, like the hokey-[pc]okey, is what it's all about
2018-10-25T19:20:33Z jcowan: Especially if the alternative is threading the seed, because people won't bother and then their code will be inviting attack.
2018-10-25T19:29:32Z civodul joined #scheme
2018-10-25T19:34:27Z pierpal quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2018-10-25T19:36:55Z qu1j0t3: api design
2018-10-25T19:39:03Z Riastradh: jcowan: Speaking from experience in managing sizeable software systems designed to do stochastic computation, I disagree.  Everything that used any global random state was problematic, and the cost of threading a seed through APIs, negligible.
2018-10-25T19:40:13Z jonaslund: Riastradh: I think the opposite is preferable, make the default random but allow for fixing it for debugging
2018-10-25T19:40:32Z Riastradh: Speaking from experience, everything that did that was the problem.
2018-10-25T19:40:54Z pjb quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 26.1))
2018-10-25T19:41:28Z jonaslund: but your problem was debugging, i think me and jcowan are thinking about security
2018-10-25T19:41:31Z pjb joined #scheme
2018-10-25T19:41:40Z jonaslund: and in the end, exploited systems are an enormous headache
2018-10-25T19:41:52Z jcowan: In that case, yes.  But that is not remotely on the scale of salting hash functions
2018-10-25T19:42:19Z Riastradh: Cryptosystems that are deterministic from a single seed input are simpler, easier to implement, easier to debug, and easier to test.
2018-10-25T19:42:47Z eddof13 joined #scheme
2018-10-25T19:43:07Z Riastradh: Cryptosystems that involve keeping state or repeated stochastic inputs are problematic and have caused enormous damage in practice, like the Sony PlayStation 3 firmware update signature scheme.
2018-10-25T19:45:41Z Riastradh: I'm speaking from experience in _both_ numerical simulations and cryptography.
2018-10-25T19:49:31Z jonaslund: reading on the ps3 firmware, do elaborate on that since reading there it seems the problem was using a "random constant" (re-use?)
2018-10-25T19:49:47Z jonaslund: (found a better article.. checking it)
2018-10-25T19:49:52Z Riastradh: Incidentally, we chose to use a cryptographic PRNG for the simulations because it was easier to just do that and use it than to figure out whether detectable nonuniformities in the Mersenne twister that Python uses by default would screw us up if we made trees of seeds (and it turned out to be loads faster anyway because MT initialization is stupidly slow).
2018-10-25T19:50:13Z Riastradh: jonaslund: Sony used a signature scheme that requires a secret input chosen independently uniformly at random for each signature.
2018-10-25T19:50:27Z Riastradh: jonaslund: But they forgot to actually choose it independently for each signature.
2018-10-25T19:50:30Z Riastradh: jonaslund: So they leaked the private key.
2018-10-25T19:50:31Z Riastradh: Oops.
2018-10-25T19:50:37Z Riastradh: Now anyone on the planet can sign the firmware updates.
2018-10-25T19:51:20Z Riastradh: jonaslund: There are other signature schemes that don't require this, and are otherwise equivalent (in cost to make and verify a signature, in signature size, in implementation complexity, in cost of best known attacks, &c.).
2018-10-25T19:51:30Z Riastradh: Had Sony chosen to use one of those this billion-dollar disaster wouldn't have struck.
2018-10-25T19:51:59Z Riastradh: For example, Ed25519 takes a single 32-byte secret to generate a key pair, and from then on everything that you do with it is deterministic.
2018-10-25T19:52:29Z ski: "trees of seeds" meaning seed splitting ?
2018-10-25T19:53:05Z Riastradh: This also has the advantage that you can spot-check an implementation by confirming that it gives bit-for-bit identical output on a standard set of inputs called test vectors.
2018-10-25T19:53:52Z Riastradh: It's not full verification of an implementation -- but it dramatically speeds up some engineering by enabling you to skip worrying about whether there is a subtle bug in your Ed25519 code, or a bit flipped in the message elsewhere in your application stack.
2018-10-25T19:53:58Z Riastradh: ski: yes
2018-10-25T19:53:59Z jonaslund: Riastradh: Right, so shouldn't an Ed25519 module make a secure random secret by default but let developers use a deterministic variant for debugging initialization?
2018-10-25T19:54:20Z jonaslund: debugging/testing
2018-10-25T19:54:44Z Riastradh: jonaslund: You can do that but it is simpler if you just require the caller to specify the seed.  Just a few days ago I had to adapt an Ed25519 module to do exactly this because the one that generated the key internally didn't serve my needs.
2018-10-25T19:55:12Z Riastradh: (I also had to modify it in another way but that's neither here nor there.)
2018-10-25T19:57:15Z jonaslund: Riastradh: I think my issue with those kinds of designs is that it's enough that one idiot to put a code-sample online that does the wrong thing (bad or constant seed) and the code could potentially be copy-pasted into tons of other places affecting security in a bunch of places
2018-10-25T19:57:39Z jonaslund: Riastradh: make the default secure and add options for people who knows the details
2018-10-25T19:58:12Z Riastradh: You could rightly compare it to the C rand API, which people often use without calling srand, and so there are umpteen zillion stackoverflow questions about it and copypasta about strand(time()) as answers.  But there's a crucial difference.
2018-10-25T19:58:31Z Riastradh: If you make the API _fail to function_ when there's no seed, then users _have_ to specify a seed and figure out where to get one.
2018-10-25T19:59:11Z qu1j0t3: +1
2018-10-25T19:59:15Z jonaslund: dilbert on accounting :)
2018-10-25T19:59:16Z Riastradh: They could still screw it up, certainly, but the API nudges them in the right direction.
2018-10-25T20:00:29Z jonaslund: Riastradh: I think my hard "secure by default" opinion is a bit based on experience
2018-10-25T20:01:04Z jonaslund: I was teaching a class on integrating SQL databases
2018-10-25T20:01:54Z jonaslund: repeadetly explained to them NOT to build query strings manually and rather use prepared queries or similar to get the system to do it correctly
2018-10-25T20:02:13Z jonaslund: from the first step of showing them how to integrate queries
2018-10-25T20:02:27Z Riastradh: Certainly there's always ways to screw it up: make it idiotproof and the universe makes a better idiot.  But this nudges people in the right direction by failing noisily if you fail to provide a seed, and serves the interest of _real applications_ in multiple disparate domains -- numerical simulations _and_ cryptography -- better than the implicit state that is built into Python's random module, SRFI
2018-10-25T20:02:28Z jonaslund: guess what about 30% of them did when implementing things themselves :(
2018-10-25T20:02:34Z Riastradh: 27, &c.
2018-10-25T20:04:20Z Riastradh: What if you had a separate notation for a SQL query, say q"...", that forbid the concatenation operator, so that it _fails noisily_ if you try to concatenate them but works to use string parameters?
2018-10-25T20:04:48Z jonaslund: Riastradh: I agree idiotproofing is silly, what i'd advocate instead is making the secure/sane choices the easy/lazy option and count on people being lazy or taking the easy way
2018-10-25T20:05:11Z Riastradh: Could do this in Scheme with a macro (query ...) that just expands to (quote ...), so that if you try (query (string-append ...)) the output will be nonsense.
2018-10-25T20:05:26Z Riastradh: eh, (quote (query ...))
2018-10-25T20:05:35Z Riastradh: (so that string-append on the result also doesn't work)
2018-10-25T20:05:52Z Riastradh: s/works to use string parameters/works to use query parameters/1, excuse me
2018-10-25T20:07:11Z jonaslund: I think we could go down a rabbit hole here but yeah, that's another option
2018-10-25T20:07:14Z Riastradh: I would hope, by the way, that if jcowan takes my suggestion, the stackoverflow copypasta will be something like (make-random-source (get-entropy)), not (make-random-source (make-bytevector 32 0)), because the documentation will suggest (make-random-source (get-entropy)).
2018-10-25T20:08:30Z jonaslund: Well
2018-10-25T20:09:11Z jonaslund: if (make-random-source (get-entropy)) is shorter to type than (make-random-source (entropy-from-bytevector (make-bytevector 32 0)))
2018-10-25T20:09:16Z Riastradh: (Can people build libraries with their own global state?  Of course, but it's not going to be the default state of affairs as it would be if you just reach for (random-integer 42) without thinking.
2018-10-25T20:09:20Z Riastradh: )
2018-10-25T20:09:37Z jonaslund: it'd satisfy my rule of "lazy being secure"
2018-10-25T20:09:42Z Riastradh: (get-entropy) is shorter to type than (make-bytevector 32) already.
2018-10-25T20:09:56Z jonaslund: true
2018-10-25T20:10:43Z Riastradh: Also not too tempting to use (get-entropy) directly for most things since it'll return a 32-byte vector, always, which is kinda inconvenient if you wanted an integer below 10 or whatever.
2018-10-25T20:16:18Z Riastradh: (but if you do there's no security harm to it)
2018-10-25T20:46:17Z ByronJohnson quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2018-10-25T20:46:24Z ByronJohnson joined #scheme
2018-10-25T20:47:58Z jcowan: +`
2018-10-25T20:48:14Z jcowan: (oops)
2018-10-25T20:48:27Z jcowan: If you require the seed explicitly, it had better be an opaque object, though'
2018-10-25T20:49:16Z Riastradh: What's wrong with a 32-byte vector?
2018-10-25T20:51:25Z Riastradh: (`bytevector of length 32', rather)
2018-10-25T20:54:54Z muelleme joined #scheme
2018-10-25T21:13:35Z oni-on-ion quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
2018-10-25T21:25:28Z klovett quit
2018-10-25T21:28:02Z oni-on-ion joined #scheme
2018-10-25T21:32:05Z jcowan: Riastradh: because then people won't bother to get a proper one but will just write (make-bytevector 32 0)
2018-10-25T21:32:11Z jcowan: )
2018-10-25T21:36:04Z alexshendi quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2018-10-25T21:36:57Z acarrico quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2018-10-25T21:53:05Z qu1j0t3: heh
2018-10-25T21:55:08Z daviid quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2018-10-25T21:55:38Z muelleme quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2018-10-25T22:02:27Z dbmikus_ quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.2)
2018-10-25T22:08:48Z Riastradh: jcowan: If the documentation says something like `seed must be a 32-element byte vector, such as the nondeterministic choice of seed returned by (get-entropy) or a deterministic seed chosen for reproducible results', then I think the danger of that is small enough that it doesn't matter.
2018-10-25T22:09:14Z Riastradh: Not worth one's time to defend against the best idiots the internet can come up with; better to make it easy to do the right thing.
2018-10-25T22:09:24Z wasamasa: yeah
2018-10-25T22:09:41Z wasamasa: reminds me of the person in here who asked why they kept getting the same random numbers in guile
2018-10-25T22:09:41Z eddof13 quit (Quit: eddof13)
2018-10-25T22:10:24Z Riastradh: In this case what I'm recommending is that the API require you to _positively specify_ a constant seed, not merely neglect to call srand.
2018-10-25T22:10:35Z wasamasa: right, it should be an error
2018-10-25T22:11:05Z wasamasa: if you're not going to give the user something sensible, don't fail silently
2018-10-25T22:14:21Z jcowan: "Unfortunately I have no better [idiots] to give you."  --Joseph Stalin
2018-10-25T22:14:32Z jcowan: (actually he said "authors", but the difference is small)
2018-10-25T22:14:41Z pjb quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
2018-10-25T22:17:10Z qu1j0t3: wow harsh crowd
2018-10-25T22:17:24Z jcowan chuckles
2018-10-25T22:17:33Z eddof13 joined #scheme
2018-10-25T22:35:21Z nckx- is now known as nckx
2018-10-25T22:56:45Z civodul quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 26.1))
2018-10-25T23:02:39Z daviid joined #scheme
2018-10-25T23:03:44Z smazga quit (Quit: leaving)
2018-10-25T23:10:45Z pierpa joined #scheme
2018-10-25T23:13:33Z eddof13 quit (Quit: eddof13)
2018-10-25T23:20:16Z pjb joined #scheme
2018-10-25T23:27:16Z daviid quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2018-10-25T23:32:15Z catonano quit (Quit: catonano)
2018-10-25T23:32:18Z klovett joined #scheme
2018-10-25T23:34:33Z erkin quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2018-10-25T23:43:35Z mange joined #scheme
2018-10-26T00:07:27Z mange quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2018-10-26T00:14:25Z wigust quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2018-10-26T00:16:52Z pjb quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2018-10-26T00:17:24Z wigust joined #scheme
2018-10-26T00:21:56Z zachk quit (Quit: Leaving)
2018-10-26T00:42:00Z ravndal quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
2018-10-26T00:48:23Z pjb joined #scheme
2018-10-26T00:49:06Z TheGreekOwl quit (Quit: I must go, my planet needs me.)
2018-10-26T00:49:31Z TheGreekOwl joined #scheme
2018-10-26T00:55:12Z daviid joined #scheme
2018-10-26T00:56:38Z ravndal joined #scheme
2018-10-26T00:58:21Z klovett_ joined #scheme
2018-10-26T01:01:43Z klovett quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2018-10-26T01:03:58Z catonano joined #scheme
2018-10-26T01:13:23Z jao quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2018-10-26T01:21:22Z lavaflow quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2018-10-26T01:21:53Z pjb quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
2018-10-26T01:30:47Z lavaflow joined #scheme
2018-10-26T01:33:08Z Guest13389 quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2018-10-26T01:46:45Z Guest13389 joined #scheme
2018-10-26T02:27:21Z Ober: siraben: I've got gambit/gerbil working now on termux. chibi builds cleanly also
2018-10-26T02:30:40Z siraben: Ober: how? What android version are you on?
2018-10-26T02:30:42Z alyptik joined #scheme
2018-10-26T02:30:52Z lockywolf joined #scheme
2018-10-26T02:30:59Z Ober: 7.1.2
2018-10-26T02:31:17Z siraben: Ah I'm on 5.1.1
2018-10-26T02:31:26Z Ober: why not upgrade?
2018-10-26T02:31:29Z siraben: It's a spare phone
2018-10-26T02:31:45Z siraben: My main device is an iPhone 6 right now
2018-10-26T02:31:46Z ozzloy quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2018-10-26T02:31:52Z Ober: I'm using a $50 phone to do this now
2018-10-26T02:31:59Z siraben: But it should work on 5.1.1?
2018-10-26T02:32:37Z siraben: Theoretically.
2018-10-26T02:36:57Z Ober: unknown
2018-10-26T02:37:24Z Ober: siraben: try chibi. it should build fine there too
2018-10-26T02:40:41Z siraben uploaded an image: ima_0df48ff.png (119KB) < https://matrix.org/_matrix/media/v1/download/matrix.org/YeTPadfHOrvWhTOkbwODMlmi >
2018-10-26T02:41:11Z siraben: Linker warnings galore
2018-10-26T02:42:50Z ivanshmakov joined #scheme
2018-10-26T02:43:05Z lockywolf_ joined #scheme
2018-10-26T02:43:30Z lockywolf quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2018-10-26T02:44:37Z astronavt joined #scheme
2018-10-26T02:49:57Z siraben: Here's what make install says
2018-10-26T02:50:04Z siraben uploaded an image: ima_dc5abe8.png (147KB) < https://matrix.org/_matrix/media/v1/download/matrix.org/BmDuFCfBJghbDMFEQfyabuTD >
2018-10-26T02:55:49Z klovett joined #scheme
2018-10-26T02:58:23Z klovett_ quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2018-10-26T03:00:21Z daviid quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2018-10-26T03:10:21Z lockywolf_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2018-10-26T03:11:40Z catonano quit (Quit: catonano)
2018-10-26T03:18:24Z pjb joined #scheme
2018-10-26T03:20:02Z astronavt quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2018-10-26T03:20:14Z pierpa quit (Quit: Page closed)
2018-10-26T03:21:22Z Ober: for chibi?
2018-10-26T03:29:38Z astronavt joined #scheme
2018-10-26T03:47:51Z klovett quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2018-10-26T03:48:45Z klovett joined #scheme
2018-10-26T03:51:46Z pjb quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2018-10-26T03:58:07Z klovett quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2018-10-26T03:58:27Z klovett joined #scheme
2018-10-26T03:58:31Z klovett quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2018-10-26T03:59:13Z klovett joined #scheme
2018-10-26T04:04:38Z pierpal joined #scheme
2018-10-26T04:12:24Z klovett quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2018-10-26T04:24:30Z pierpal quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2018-10-26T04:28:21Z klovett joined #scheme
2018-10-26T04:28:24Z Inline quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2018-10-26T04:28:53Z lritter joined #scheme
2018-10-26T04:46:40Z pierpal joined #scheme
2018-10-26T04:52:55Z xkapastel quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity)
2018-10-26T05:11:28Z pierpal quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2018-10-26T05:21:43Z pie__ quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2018-10-26T05:42:09Z pierpal joined #scheme
2018-10-26T05:46:35Z lavaflow_ joined #scheme
2018-10-26T05:46:37Z pie__ joined #scheme
2018-10-26T05:46:58Z [X-Scale] joined #scheme
2018-10-26T05:48:09Z wasa joined #scheme
2018-10-26T05:48:09Z wasa quit (Changing host)
2018-10-26T05:48:09Z wasa joined #scheme
2018-10-26T05:51:00Z crypto joined #scheme
2018-10-26T05:51:03Z emma_ joined #scheme
2018-10-26T05:51:06Z ski_ joined #scheme
2018-10-26T05:51:37Z stux|wor- joined #scheme
2018-10-26T05:53:11Z catonano joined #scheme
2018-10-26T05:55:51Z lavaflow quit (*.net *.split)
2018-10-26T05:55:51Z jp quit (*.net *.split)
2018-10-26T05:55:51Z Zenton quit (*.net *.split)
2018-10-26T05:55:51Z joast quit (*.net *.split)
2018-10-26T05:55:51Z ski quit (*.net *.split)
2018-10-26T05:55:51Z z0d quit (*.net *.split)
2018-10-26T05:55:51Z X-Scale quit (*.net *.split)
2018-10-26T05:55:51Z catern quit (*.net *.split)
2018-10-26T05:55:51Z emma quit (*.net *.split)
2018-10-26T05:55:51Z stux|work quit (*.net *.split)
2018-10-26T05:55:51Z wasamasa quit (*.net *.split)
2018-10-26T05:55:51Z tessier quit (*.net *.split)
2018-10-26T05:55:51Z ng0 quit (*.net *.split)
2018-10-26T05:55:51Z cmatei quit (*.net *.split)
2018-10-26T05:55:58Z [X-Scale] is now known as X-Scale
2018-10-26T05:57:42Z tessier joined #scheme
2018-10-26T05:57:42Z tessier quit (Changing host)
2018-10-26T05:57:42Z tessier joined #scheme
2018-10-26T06:00:31Z pjb joined #scheme
2018-10-26T06:01:52Z jp joined #scheme
2018-10-26T06:02:55Z cmatei joined #scheme
2018-10-26T06:03:30Z ng0 joined #scheme
2018-10-26T06:05:21Z pjb quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2018-10-26T06:06:24Z catern_ joined #scheme
2018-10-26T06:07:04Z ozzloy joined #scheme
2018-10-26T06:07:04Z ozzloy quit (Changing host)
2018-10-26T06:07:04Z ozzloy joined #scheme
2018-10-26T06:26:03Z pierpal quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2018-10-26T06:33:09Z catonano quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2018-10-26T06:34:35Z thevishy joined #scheme
2018-10-26T06:40:01Z pierpal joined #scheme
2018-10-26T06:43:52Z thevishy quit (Quit: thevishy)
2018-10-26T07:08:20Z aeth quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2018-10-26T07:08:41Z aeth joined #scheme
2018-10-26T07:10:56Z pierpal quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2018-10-26T07:14:03Z pierpal joined #scheme
2018-10-26T07:14:32Z lavaflow_ quit (Read error: No route to host)
2018-10-26T07:15:39Z pierpal quit (Client Quit)
2018-10-26T07:16:10Z pierpal joined #scheme
2018-10-26T07:30:05Z catonano joined #scheme
2018-10-26T07:30:29Z wasa is now known as wasamasa
2018-10-26T07:35:12Z ggole joined #scheme
2018-10-26T07:38:18Z astronavt quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2018-10-26T07:38:19Z lavaflow_ joined #scheme
2018-10-26T07:39:13Z pierpal quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2018-10-26T07:43:13Z xyz_ joined #scheme
2018-10-26T07:47:30Z oni-on-ion quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.9.1)
2018-10-26T07:48:16Z xyz_ quit (Quit: Page closed)
2018-10-26T07:56:18Z jao joined #scheme
2018-10-26T07:57:45Z crypto is now known as z0d
2018-10-26T08:02:40Z pjb joined #scheme
2018-10-26T08:06:40Z nly joined #scheme
2018-10-26T08:10:28Z skapata quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2018-10-26T08:13:36Z jao quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2018-10-26T08:25:53Z amz3` joined #scheme
2018-10-26T08:27:16Z thevishy joined #scheme
2018-10-26T08:35:10Z pjb quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2018-10-26T08:36:29Z Zenton joined #scheme
2018-10-26T08:46:09Z pie__ quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2018-10-26T09:06:17Z catonano quit (Quit: catonano)
2018-10-26T09:14:13Z pie_ joined #scheme
2018-10-26T09:15:03Z pie_ quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2018-10-26T09:15:35Z pie_ joined #scheme
2018-10-26T09:16:03Z thevishy quit (Quit: thevishy)
2018-10-26T09:33:07Z ski_ is now known as ski
2018-10-26T09:33:44Z Kkiro quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2018-10-26T09:34:22Z catonano joined #scheme
2018-10-26T09:37:26Z pierpal joined #scheme
2018-10-26T09:39:10Z vyzo quit (Quit: Leaving.)
2018-10-26T09:39:37Z pierpal quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2018-10-26T09:39:49Z pierpal joined #scheme
2018-10-26T09:42:15Z pierpal quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2018-10-26T09:47:36Z ggole quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2018-10-26T09:48:02Z ggole joined #scheme
2018-10-26T09:48:27Z InverseRhombus quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2018-10-26T09:49:19Z siraben: ManDay:  Compare in what regard?
2018-10-26T09:52:18Z siraben: ManDay:  Chibi is much smaller than Guile, and is so is suitable for smaller projects.
2018-10-26T09:52:31Z siraben: AFAIK it doesn't add as many SRFIs as Guile does
2018-10-26T09:53:40Z nly quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2018-10-26T09:53:41Z siraben: I don't, but maybe someone else does.
2018-10-26T09:53:50Z nly joined #scheme
2018-10-26T09:53:54Z siraben: I use Guile, mainly, but will get to using Chibi soon.
2018-10-26T09:58:41Z ggole quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2018-10-26T09:59:06Z ggole joined #scheme
2018-10-26T10:03:50Z siraben: Yes, Guile has great debugging features and documentation.
2018-10-26T10:04:02Z siraben: I basically learn everything by browsing the Info manual within Emacs
2018-10-26T10:07:08Z joast joined #scheme
2018-10-26T10:07:28Z nly quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2018-10-26T10:11:59Z catonano quit (Quit: catonano)
2018-10-26T10:25:07Z nly joined #scheme
2018-10-26T10:32:36Z pjb joined #scheme
2018-10-26T10:41:35Z catonano_ joined #scheme
2018-10-26T10:45:07Z johnjay quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2018-10-26T11:05:11Z pjb quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2018-10-26T11:12:16Z joast quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2018-10-26T11:40:16Z acarrico joined #scheme
2018-10-26T11:41:02Z xkapastel joined #scheme
2018-10-26T11:51:06Z nly quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2018-10-26T12:01:09Z nly joined #scheme
2018-10-26T12:19:54Z klovett_ joined #scheme
2018-10-26T12:22:05Z klovett quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
2018-10-26T12:24:51Z wigust- joined #scheme
2018-10-26T12:27:57Z wigust quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2018-10-26T12:30:21Z razzy quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2018-10-26T12:35:33Z pierpal joined #scheme
2018-10-26T12:41:43Z pierpal quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
2018-10-26T12:49:32Z pie__ joined #scheme
2018-10-26T12:51:45Z pie_ quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
2018-10-26T12:58:15Z Kkiro joined #scheme
2018-10-26T12:58:15Z Kkiro quit (Changing host)
2018-10-26T12:58:15Z Kkiro joined #scheme
2018-10-26T13:02:00Z alyptik quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2018-10-26T13:02:34Z pjb joined #scheme
2018-10-26T13:03:38Z joast joined #scheme
2018-10-26T13:05:12Z thevishy joined #scheme
2018-10-26T13:06:52Z astronavt joined #scheme
2018-10-26T13:07:33Z TheGreekOwl quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2018-10-26T13:12:04Z siraben: Revisiting the generic operators section of SICP is enlightening.
2018-10-26T13:13:54Z astronavt_ joined #scheme
2018-10-26T13:17:33Z astronavt quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2018-10-26T13:22:31Z siraben: Lecture: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h6Z7vx9iUB8&t=0s&list=PLE18841CABEA24090&index=9
2018-10-26T13:23:00Z siraben: Book: https://github.com/sarabander/sicp-pdf/raw/master/sicp.pdf
2018-10-26T13:23:58Z siraben: The audio is a little poor in that lecture, I use VLC to boost it
2018-10-26T13:30:40Z siraben: Yep.
2018-10-26T13:30:49Z siraben: I like to watch the lectures then go into the book for a deeper dive.
2018-10-26T13:35:30Z pjb quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2018-10-26T13:37:32Z amz3` quit (Changing host)
2018-10-26T13:37:32Z amz3` joined #scheme
2018-10-26T13:37:38Z amz3`: #nerd-talk
2018-10-26T13:45:22Z ogamita joined #scheme
2018-10-26T13:46:45Z jao joined #scheme
2018-10-26T13:47:52Z alezost joined #scheme
2018-10-26T14:01:56Z alyptik joined #scheme
2018-10-26T14:02:30Z thevishy quit (Quit: thevishy)
2018-10-26T14:02:51Z thevishy joined #scheme
2018-10-26T14:12:21Z astronavt_ is now known as astronavt
2018-10-26T14:14:28Z catern_ left #scheme
2018-10-26T14:18:10Z ogamita quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2018-10-26T14:48:15Z catonano_ quit (Quit: catonano_)
2018-10-26T14:50:54Z klovett joined #scheme
2018-10-26T14:54:26Z klovett_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2018-10-26T15:01:37Z alezost quit (Quit: I live in GuixSD <http://www.gnu.org/s/guix> and Emacs <http://www.gnu.org/s/emacs>)
2018-10-26T15:01:38Z catonano joined #scheme
2018-10-26T15:13:22Z smazga joined #scheme
2018-10-26T15:15:48Z eddof13 joined #scheme
2018-10-26T15:32:59Z pjb joined #scheme
2018-10-26T15:34:25Z klovett_ joined #scheme
2018-10-26T15:37:07Z klovett quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2018-10-26T15:42:10Z Zenton quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2018-10-26T15:42:22Z Inline joined #scheme
2018-10-26T15:48:04Z thevishy quit (Quit: thevishy)
2018-10-26T16:02:37Z Zipheir: That's a good one, IIRC. One of the students accuses Hal Abelson of 'stacking the deck' at the end xD
2018-10-26T16:03:40Z Zipheir: David, that's the name of the student.
2018-10-26T16:05:39Z pjb quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2018-10-26T16:08:27Z Zipheir: Clearly I watch those videos too often...
2018-10-26T16:10:38Z jcowan: I do wish the Guile R7RS work hadn't been abandoned
2018-10-26T16:10:55Z jcowan: though it does help keep me honest about R6RS implementation of SRFIs
2018-10-26T16:11:32Z jcowan: SRFI 160 (homogeneous vector lib) is going to be a pretty complex implementation because different Schemes provide different parts of it, and Chibi the least
2018-10-26T16:12:27Z catonano quit (Quit: catonano)
2018-10-26T16:16:39Z jcowan: lowest layer is (rnrs bytevectors), then SRFI 4, then the actual libraries for each individual vector tuype
2018-10-26T16:18:12Z Zipheir: Guile gave up on R7? When did that happen?
2018-10-26T16:18:27Z ecraven: maybe it's just dormant
2018-10-26T16:19:37Z jcowan: Well, Arthur (surname forgotten) told me he was the only one working on it, and he got stuck at enhancing the syntax expander
2018-10-26T16:19:57Z jcowan: In principle nothing in Scheme is ever utterly abandoned unless the code is lost
2018-10-26T16:21:20Z ecraven: might be the same as most other implementations, if anyone works on it and starts PRs, they would probably be accepted
2018-10-26T16:22:13Z jcowan: I do wish someone else would work on Rapid Scheme, as that would provide the R7RS nature for a vast number of Schemes, modulo the library
2018-10-26T16:22:32Z jcowan: too big a job for one person in his spare time, I think
2018-10-26T16:23:31Z Zipheir: That's really unfortunate.
2018-10-26T16:24:21Z jcob joined #scheme
2018-10-26T16:32:55Z klovett_ quit
2018-10-26T16:34:24Z eddof13 quit (Quit: eddof13)
2018-10-26T16:35:24Z pjb joined #scheme
2018-10-26T16:39:39Z civodul joined #scheme
2018-10-26T16:42:30Z astronavt quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2018-10-26T16:42:52Z astronavt__ joined #scheme
2018-10-26T16:48:06Z jcob quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2018-10-26T16:53:37Z astronavt__ is now known as astronavt
2018-10-26T16:54:07Z vyzo joined #scheme
2018-10-26T16:54:12Z jcob joined #scheme
2018-10-26T16:58:19Z amz3` quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
2018-10-26T17:00:21Z erkin joined #scheme
2018-10-26T17:07:46Z pjb quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2018-10-26T17:07:59Z astronavt quit (Quit: Leaving)
2018-10-26T17:11:24Z klovett joined #scheme
2018-10-26T17:17:00Z lritter quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2018-10-26T17:18:19Z Zenton joined #scheme
2018-10-26T17:21:26Z eddof13 joined #scheme
2018-10-26T17:24:42Z johnjay joined #scheme
2018-10-26T17:26:57Z jcob quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2018-10-26T17:27:58Z jcob joined #scheme
2018-10-26T17:28:23Z Zaab1t joined #scheme
2018-10-26T17:28:32Z Zaab1t left #scheme
2018-10-26T17:28:38Z Zaab1t joined #scheme
2018-10-26T17:34:46Z eddof13 quit (Quit: eddof13)
2018-10-26T17:35:53Z eddof13 joined #scheme
2018-10-26T17:48:05Z Kooda quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2018-10-26T17:48:33Z Kooda joined #scheme
2018-10-26T17:55:23Z astronavt joined #scheme
2018-10-26T17:55:27Z astronavt quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2018-10-26T18:19:51Z jcob quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2018-10-26T18:20:40Z ggole quit (Quit: ggole)
2018-10-26T18:21:55Z eddof13 quit (Quit: eddof13)
2018-10-26T18:23:17Z terpri quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2018-10-26T18:24:02Z eddof13 joined #scheme
2018-10-26T18:30:38Z pie__ quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2018-10-26T18:41:30Z razzy joined #scheme
2018-10-26T18:45:59Z daviid joined #scheme
2018-10-26T18:48:57Z skapata joined #scheme
2018-10-26T18:50:01Z eddof13 quit (Quit: eddof13)
2018-10-26T18:50:58Z Zaab1t quit (Quit: bye bye friends)
2018-10-26T18:51:02Z eddof13 joined #scheme
2018-10-26T18:52:42Z klovett quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2018-10-26T18:57:58Z pie_ joined #scheme
2018-10-26T19:01:19Z klovett joined #scheme
2018-10-26T19:04:29Z pie_ quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2018-10-26T19:06:43Z alexshendi joined #scheme
2018-10-26T19:12:31Z pie_ joined #scheme
2018-10-26T19:18:59Z pjb joined #scheme
2018-10-26T19:19:18Z zachk joined #scheme
2018-10-26T19:20:11Z zachk quit (Changing host)
2018-10-26T19:20:11Z zachk joined #scheme
2018-10-26T19:21:01Z eddof13 quit (Quit: eddof13)
2018-10-26T19:36:27Z alexshendi quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2018-10-26T19:36:53Z catonano joined #scheme
2018-10-26T19:41:40Z flerovite quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2018-10-26T19:42:06Z flerovite joined #scheme
2018-10-26T19:56:27Z pie_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2018-10-26T20:03:20Z ngz joined #scheme
2018-10-26T20:06:26Z pie_ joined #scheme
2018-10-26T20:06:28Z pie__ joined #scheme
2018-10-26T20:11:03Z pie_ quit (Client Quit)
2018-10-26T20:12:25Z alexshendi joined #scheme
2018-10-26T20:17:01Z Ober: so chibi/gambit/gerbil on Termux work. working on sagittarius now
2018-10-26T20:19:34Z alexshendi quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2018-10-26T20:24:40Z TheGreekOwl joined #scheme
2018-10-26T20:36:42Z pie_ joined #scheme
2018-10-26T20:36:59Z pie__ quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2018-10-26T20:39:06Z nly quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2018-10-26T20:39:49Z pie_ quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2018-10-26T20:49:57Z pie_ joined #scheme
2018-10-26T20:52:29Z eddof13 joined #scheme
2018-10-26T21:13:28Z klovett quit
2018-10-26T21:19:43Z pierpal joined #scheme
2018-10-26T21:22:22Z pierpal quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2018-10-26T21:48:21Z emacsomancer quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2018-10-26T21:49:40Z emacsomancer joined #scheme
2018-10-26T21:51:31Z jcowan: awesomesauce
2018-10-26T21:51:47Z jcowan: The last I tried Sagittarius on Linux the head would not build
2018-10-26T21:52:18Z wasamasa: what about the tail?
2018-10-26T21:52:30Z jcowan: Ya got me there
2018-10-26T21:52:38Z wasamasa: detached heads are gross
2018-10-26T21:52:40Z jcowan: You might want to try the last release if there is one
2018-10-26T22:02:35Z klovett joined #scheme
2018-10-26T22:04:34Z arbv2 joined #scheme
2018-10-26T22:04:55Z arbv2 quit (Client Quit)
2018-10-26T22:07:30Z arbv joined #scheme
2018-10-26T22:07:32Z eddof13 quit (Quit: eddof13)
2018-10-26T22:08:03Z arbv2 joined #scheme
2018-10-26T22:08:20Z arbv2 quit (Client Quit)
2018-10-26T22:09:32Z arbv quit (Quit: ZNC - https://znc.in)
2018-10-26T22:10:03Z arbv joined #scheme
2018-10-26T22:11:10Z arbv quit (Client Quit)
2018-10-26T22:11:55Z arbv joined #scheme
2018-10-26T22:13:12Z Ober: git is not tco
2018-10-26T22:13:46Z Ober: single binary web app on termux and gerbil scheme able to do all my apps now for android and no java :P
2018-10-26T22:16:34Z arbv left #scheme
2018-10-26T22:20:01Z eddof13 joined #scheme
2018-10-26T22:24:57Z smazga quit (Quit: leaving)
2018-10-26T22:28:27Z catonano quit (Quit: catonano)
2018-10-26T22:28:41Z DGASAU quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2018-10-26T22:33:37Z DGASAU joined #scheme
2018-10-26T22:47:23Z klovett_ joined #scheme
2018-10-26T22:47:27Z DGASAU quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2018-10-26T22:47:53Z oni-on-ion joined #scheme
2018-10-26T22:51:34Z klovett quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2018-10-26T22:54:18Z ngz quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2018-10-26T22:57:11Z skapata quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2018-10-26T22:57:28Z skapata joined #scheme
2018-10-26T23:04:25Z Zipheir: Ugh, detached head mode. It really is as gross as it sounds.
2018-10-26T23:11:34Z civodul quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 26.1))
2018-10-26T23:11:49Z eddof13 quit (Quit: eddof13)
2018-10-26T23:20:12Z eddof13 joined #scheme
2018-10-26T23:45:21Z eddof13 quit (Quit: eddof13)
2018-10-26T23:49:10Z pie__ joined #scheme
2018-10-26T23:52:22Z pie_ quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2018-10-27T00:13:14Z klovett joined #scheme
2018-10-27T00:16:52Z klovett_ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2018-10-27T00:23:44Z siraben: Ober: yes, for Chibi
2018-10-27T00:23:53Z siraben: Re: screenshots of build error
2018-10-27T00:30:38Z xkapastel quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity)
2018-10-27T00:44:57Z jao quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2018-10-27T01:24:51Z zachk quit (Quit: Leaving)
2018-10-27T01:48:13Z Ober: yeah, you can always upgrade
2018-10-27T02:06:24Z marusich joined #scheme
2018-10-27T02:08:09Z Riastradh: jcowan: Also you should provide names for some floating-point parameters, if you don't already: emin, emax, p, epsilon.
2018-10-27T02:22:21Z xkapastel joined #scheme
2018-10-27T02:25:13Z Riastradh: jcowan: Also the procedure (shift x n) should compute x * 2^n, in every kind of number that there is.  When x is an integer it is arithmetic bitwise shift.  When x is a float, you get ldexp (a.k.a. scalbn, if it's binary floating-poinT).
2018-10-27T02:28:36Z Riastradh: (For n < 0 in the case of integers, it is the euclidean quotient x / 2^n.)
2018-10-27T02:31:12Z marusich quit (Quit: Leaving)
2018-10-27T02:33:06Z Riastradh: jcowan: It is sometimes also helpful to name the minimum and maximum exponents in base e and 10 by which exponentiation yields finite normal floating-point outputs.
2018-10-27T02:33:18Z astronavt joined #scheme
2018-10-27T02:33:24Z astronavt quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2018-10-27T02:33:29Z Riastradh: And the minimum exponent in all of the bases (2, e, 10) by which exponentiation yields nonzero output.
2018-10-27T02:33:37Z karlguy joined #scheme
2018-10-27T02:34:01Z jcowan: I've got ldexp/scalbn in the flonums library (everything in math.h is there), but no generic shift function.  It's trivial to compose your own in one line.
2018-10-27T02:34:30Z Riastradh: I know, I'm just tilting at a windmill to have a standard compact easy nice name for it instead of the unwieldy arithmetic-shift and the impenetrable ldexp/scalbn.
2018-10-27T02:34:35Z jcowan: (The flonum library assumes base-2 exponents, so it won't work on z/Series.  Ask me if I care.)
2018-10-27T02:35:01Z Riastradh: I think base-10 floating-point is a little bit silly but it's not entirely unreasonable and it's in IEEE 754.
2018-10-27T02:35:57Z jcowan: It has its uses, but decimal floats are not flonums according to the meaning of the Act.
2018-10-27T02:36:03Z siraben: Ober: I'll keep that in mind.
2018-10-27T02:36:05Z jcowan: ldexp is called make-flonum in the SRFI
2018-10-27T02:36:15Z Riastradh: ...why is it called `make-flonum'?
2018-10-27T02:36:24Z Riastradh: You have to already have a flonum as input...
2018-10-27T02:37:04Z jcowan: I confess to not remembering why, but nobody complained at the time.
2018-10-27T02:37:11Z Riastradh: Fix it!
2018-10-27T02:37:45Z Riastradh: Either ldexp or scalbn or shift is a better name for it.
2018-10-27T02:38:37Z jcowan: Naah.
2018-10-27T02:38:43Z jcowan: "Names are but names.":
2018-10-27T02:38:58Z Riastradh: Well it wouldn't do any good for it to be called Montague.
2018-10-27T02:39:40Z jcowan: Or Emack and Bolio, for that matter.
2018-10-27T02:40:02Z Riastradh: I could go for Emack and Bolio right now.  There's no good ice cream joints in the immediate vicinity here...
2018-10-27T02:40:49Z pie_ joined #scheme
2018-10-27T02:41:15Z pie__ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2018-10-27T02:46:07Z Riastradh: Also you should make sure to have all of the operations listed in IEEE 754, and control of exceptions and rounding mode.
2018-10-27T02:47:14Z pierpal joined #scheme
2018-10-27T02:48:07Z razzy: tip for good MIT-scheme chess engine?
2018-10-27T02:48:14Z Riastradh: ?
2018-10-27T02:48:25Z Riastradh: I don't normally tip when I play chess...
2018-10-27T02:49:15Z razzy: do you know simple, open-source MIT-scheme engine?
2018-10-27T02:49:31Z Riastradh: Nope.
2018-10-27T02:49:34Z Riastradh: I mean not a chess one.
2018-10-27T02:53:39Z pierpal quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2018-10-27T02:54:10Z pierpal joined #scheme
2018-10-27T02:54:38Z jcowan: Do you have access to 754?  I do not.
2018-10-27T02:56:07Z badkins quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2018-10-27T02:57:52Z jcowan: I've never eaten at Emack and Bolio, but my wedding cake was an ice cream cake from Hillary's in Philly
2018-10-27T02:57:57Z jcowan: (no relation)
2018-10-27T03:02:41Z pierpal quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2018-10-27T03:04:26Z Riastradh: Oh, hey, LibGen has it.
2018-10-27T03:04:27Z Riastradh: https://libgen.pw/download/book/5a61eda23a044640a829d911
2018-10-27T03:05:48Z Riastradh: (That's one criticism I have of IEEE 754: the publisher is morally bankrupt and keeps it behind a reprehensible paywall.)
2018-10-27T03:05:56Z jcowan: Oooh, lovely
2018-10-27T03:06:14Z jcowan: Well, almost all standards orgs do that
2018-10-27T03:07:03Z jcowan: the only reason CL and ISLisp are available for free is that the editors made sure of it in advance.
2018-10-27T03:07:24Z jcowan: the W3C is an exception
2018-10-27T03:07:39Z Riastradh: That may be true but it is not a defence!  Rather it is an indictment of `almost all standards orgs'.
2018-10-27T03:08:11Z jcowan: Of course it's not a defense.  It is praise for our canny Lisp editors.
2018-10-27T03:18:13Z jcowan: In any case, there are indeed a few missing 754 operations that aren't in math.h
2018-10-27T03:32:04Z Riastradh: Have you adopted hexadecimal #x1.1e6f7ab7p-52 notation yet?
2018-10-27T03:54:09Z karlguy quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2018-10-27T04:11:18Z pierpal joined #scheme
2018-10-27T04:29:09Z pie_ quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2018-10-27T04:29:42Z ggole joined #scheme
2018-10-27T04:34:30Z lritter joined #scheme
2018-10-27T04:48:25Z tautologico quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity)
2018-10-27T04:52:20Z catonano joined #scheme
2018-10-27T05:02:00Z xkapastel quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity)
2018-10-27T05:16:20Z rk4 joined #scheme
2018-10-27T05:16:46Z rk4: (hello friends.
2018-10-27T05:17:01Z ski is in favor of allowing hexadecimals,binals,octals, if hexadecimal numerals, binary numerals, octal numerals are allowed, and also decimals are allowed
2018-10-27T05:17:39Z ski: (pet peeve with e.g. pocket calculators with hexadecimal support)
2018-10-27T05:38:59Z pierpal quit (Quit: Poof)
2018-10-27T05:39:19Z pierpal joined #scheme
2018-10-27T05:44:25Z pierpal quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2018-10-27T06:19:44Z nly joined #scheme
2018-10-27T06:19:47Z Zipheir: rk4: )
2018-10-27T06:26:43Z catonano quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2018-10-27T06:26:55Z lockywolf joined #scheme
2018-10-27T06:41:31Z vyzo quit (Quit: Leaving.)
2018-10-27T06:45:52Z nly quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2018-10-27T07:00:13Z rk4: Zipheir: hehe.
2018-10-27T07:00:31Z daviid quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2018-10-27T07:11:19Z aeth quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2018-10-27T07:11:42Z aeth joined #scheme
2018-10-27T07:13:37Z erkin quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2018-10-27T07:14:22Z mange joined #scheme
2018-10-27T07:30:04Z lavaflow_ is now known as lavaflow
2018-10-27T07:35:33Z lockywolf: Hello, everyone. Who could help me with elisp? I know, it's not an emacs channel, but I'm trying to use scheme-complete, so it is at least partially relevant
2018-10-27T07:36:14Z lockywolf: So I'm trying to use Alex Shinn's scheme-comeplete, so I downloaded the .el file and put it into the .emacs.d
2018-10-27T07:36:30Z lockywolf: and add the following line to .emacs:
2018-10-27T07:36:34Z lockywolf: (autoload 'scheme-smart-complete "scheme-complete" nil t)
2018-10-27T07:36:49Z lockywolf: (eval-after-load 'scheme
2018-10-27T07:36:49Z lockywolf:   '(define-key scheme-mode-map "\t" 'scheme-complete-or-indent))
2018-10-27T07:36:59Z lockywolf: So the autocompletion works fine.
2018-10-27T07:37:14Z lockywolf: But I don't understand why it actually works
2018-10-27T07:37:37Z lockywolf: the file is called "scheme-complete-0.9.7.el"
2018-10-27T07:38:11Z lockywolf: why isn't the command (autoload 'scheme-smart-complete "scheme-complete-0.9.7.el" nil t) ?
2018-10-27T07:38:41Z lockywolf: https://www.gnu.org/software/emacs/manual/html_node/elisp/Autoload.html
2018-10-27T07:38:58Z lockywolf: tells me that the second argument should be the filename
2018-10-27T07:57:19Z ivanshmakov quit (Changing host)
2018-10-27T07:57:19Z ivanshmakov joined #scheme
2018-10-27T07:57:29Z ivanshmakov: lockywolf: C-h f autoload RET points to the load function description, which reads: “First try FILE with ‘.elc’ appended, then try with ‘.el’, […]” (Also, I’d imagine that the #emacs community may be more helpful for this kind of questions.)
2018-10-27T07:57:53Z ivanshmakov left #scheme
2018-10-27T08:05:05Z robotoad joined #scheme
2018-10-27T08:10:38Z lritter quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2018-10-27T08:12:40Z lockywolf: ivanshmakov: I guess, it would. It's just that the author of scheme-complete itself sometimes comes here
2018-10-27T08:18:23Z lockywolf: Hmm... don't seem to be able to make eldoc working :(
2018-10-27T08:19:18Z lockywolf: added the required lines to my .emacs, but the minibuffer reports an error when I have my cursor set to, say, 'display'
2018-10-27T08:19:21Z lockywolf: eldoc error: (void-function eldoc-current-symbol)
2018-10-27T08:31:49Z pierpal joined #scheme
2018-10-27T08:35:09Z lockywolf quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2018-10-27T08:35:40Z lockywolf joined #scheme
2018-10-27T08:45:27Z johnjay quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2018-10-27T09:06:18Z Zaab1t joined #scheme
2018-10-27T09:11:37Z pierpal quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2018-10-27T09:15:04Z pierpal joined #scheme
2018-10-27T09:19:09Z lockywolf quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2018-10-27T09:20:03Z lockywolf joined #scheme
2018-10-27T09:20:32Z lockywolf: Has anyone seen this problem before?
2018-10-27T09:20:35Z lockywolf: The 'eldoc error: (void-function eldoc-current-symbol)'?
2018-10-27T09:23:30Z pierpal quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2018-10-27T09:23:39Z pierpal joined #scheme
2018-10-27T09:26:50Z pierpal quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2018-10-27T09:30:23Z pierpal joined #scheme
2018-10-27T09:37:58Z pierpal quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2018-10-27T09:40:11Z elderK joined #scheme
2018-10-27T09:40:44Z pierpal joined #scheme
2018-10-27T09:55:23Z DGASAU joined #scheme
2018-10-27T09:59:34Z lockywolf quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2018-10-27T10:09:48Z robotoad quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2018-10-27T10:21:38Z robotoad joined #scheme
2018-10-27T10:22:17Z pie_ joined #scheme
2018-10-27T10:26:20Z robotoad quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2018-10-27T10:31:24Z jcowan quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity)
2018-10-27T10:43:00Z lavaflow quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2018-10-27T10:45:41Z lritter joined #scheme
2018-10-27T10:51:14Z lockywolf joined #scheme
2018-10-27T10:55:16Z lockywolf: Could someone help me with chibi REPL?
2018-10-27T10:55:18Z lockywolf: http://synthcode.com/scheme/chibi/lib/chibi/repl.html
2018-10-27T10:55:51Z lockywolf: In particular, 'The following keyword arguments customize the REPL: '. What does this mean?
2018-10-27T10:57:59Z lockywolf: Does the word 'keyword' here mean the same thing as in r7rs?
2018-10-27T11:00:03Z Zaab1t quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2018-10-27T11:02:50Z robotoad joined #scheme
2018-10-27T11:04:01Z lockywolf quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2018-10-27T11:16:19Z Zaab1t joined #scheme
2018-10-27T11:33:19Z robotoad quit (Quit: robotoad)
2018-10-27T11:45:49Z lockywolf joined #scheme
2018-10-27T11:47:09Z lockywolf quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2018-10-27T12:03:23Z lavaflow joined #scheme
2018-10-27T12:08:03Z lavaflow quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2018-10-27T12:10:28Z mange quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2018-10-27T12:13:11Z Zenton quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2018-10-27T12:15:50Z pie_ quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
2018-10-27T12:19:50Z Zenton joined #scheme
2018-10-27T12:19:55Z Zenton quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2018-10-27T12:20:38Z xkapastel joined #scheme
2018-10-27T12:23:58Z lockywolf joined #scheme
2018-10-27T12:24:33Z acarrico quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2018-10-27T12:30:03Z lockywolf quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2018-10-27T12:31:42Z pierpal quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2018-10-27T12:34:33Z pie_ joined #scheme
2018-10-27T12:35:52Z catonano joined #scheme
2018-10-27T12:39:00Z civodul joined #scheme
2018-10-27T12:45:34Z wigust joined #scheme
2018-10-27T12:46:07Z wigust- quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2018-10-27T12:48:27Z aeth quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2018-10-27T13:02:08Z razzy quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2018-10-27T13:53:26Z nly joined #scheme
2018-10-27T13:56:07Z pierpal joined #scheme
2018-10-27T14:00:01Z pierpal quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2018-10-27T14:00:33Z pierpal joined #scheme
2018-10-27T14:03:53Z alezost joined #scheme
2018-10-27T14:07:24Z pierpal quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2018-10-27T14:13:08Z erkin joined #scheme
2018-10-27T14:23:27Z karlguy joined #scheme
2018-10-27T14:32:21Z muelleme joined #scheme
2018-10-27T14:42:17Z razzy joined #scheme
2018-10-27T14:44:31Z Inline quit (Quit: Leaving)
2018-10-27T14:50:20Z jcowan joined #scheme
2018-10-27T14:57:33Z alezost quit (Quit: I live in GuixSD <http://www.gnu.org/s/guix> and Emacs <http://www.gnu.org/s/emacs>)
2018-10-27T15:16:33Z catonano quit (Quit: catonano)
2018-10-27T15:29:21Z pie_ quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2018-10-27T15:30:37Z aeth joined #scheme
2018-10-27T15:40:02Z remix2000 quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.2-dev)
2018-10-27T15:40:32Z remix2000 joined #scheme
2018-10-27T15:47:13Z Zenton joined #scheme
2018-10-27T15:48:44Z karlguy quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
2018-10-27T15:50:01Z pie_ joined #scheme
2018-10-27T15:51:56Z alezost joined #scheme
2018-10-27T15:52:21Z razzy quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2018-10-27T15:59:06Z remix2000 quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.2-dev)
2018-10-27T16:06:07Z TheGreekOwl quit (Quit: I must go, my planet needs me.)
2018-10-27T16:07:45Z Inline joined #scheme
2018-10-27T16:17:08Z remix2000 joined #scheme
2018-10-27T16:27:45Z lambda-11235 joined #scheme
2018-10-27T16:36:46Z alezost quit (Quit: I live in GuixSD <http://www.gnu.org/s/guix> and Emacs <http://www.gnu.org/s/emacs>)
2018-10-27T16:39:52Z elderK quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity)
2018-10-27T16:45:19Z Niac joined #scheme
2018-10-27T16:45:57Z alexshendi joined #scheme
2018-10-27T16:49:21Z Niac quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2018-10-27T16:49:40Z nly quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2018-10-27T16:52:14Z alexshendi quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2018-10-27T16:53:10Z Zenton quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2018-10-27T16:53:34Z nly joined #scheme
2018-10-27T16:53:57Z eddof13 joined #scheme
2018-10-27T16:54:16Z Zenton joined #scheme
2018-10-27T16:55:05Z eddof13 quit (Client Quit)
2018-10-27T16:57:11Z Riastradh: jcowan: Also the documentation should make it clear whether epsilon is the smallest gap between 1 and the next floating-point number (e.g., 2^-52), or the largest relative error between consecutive floating-point numbers (e.g., 2^-53).
2018-10-27T16:58:18Z vyzo joined #scheme
2018-10-27T17:01:45Z klovett quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2018-10-27T17:11:52Z catonano joined #scheme
2018-10-27T17:19:16Z Zenton quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2018-10-27T17:21:37Z Zenton joined #scheme
2018-10-27T17:22:13Z pierpal joined #scheme
2018-10-27T17:26:07Z Zenton quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2018-10-27T17:26:11Z lritter quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2018-10-27T17:27:28Z jcowan: Riastradh: These are the functions documented in 754 that aren't in <math.h> or R6RS and therefore not in the SRFI: exp2m1, exp10, exp10m1, log2p1, log10p1, compound, rootn, pown, powr, sinPi, cosPi, atanPi, atan2Pi.
2018-10-27T17:27:49Z Zenton joined #scheme
2018-10-27T17:29:12Z acarrico joined #scheme
2018-10-27T17:36:35Z catonano quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2018-10-27T17:36:52Z catonano joined #scheme
2018-10-27T17:43:51Z pierpal quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2018-10-27T17:44:03Z pierpal joined #scheme
2018-10-27T17:52:24Z pierpal quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2018-10-27T18:03:32Z daviid joined #scheme
2018-10-27T18:09:40Z eddof13 joined #scheme
2018-10-27T18:14:21Z eddof13 quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2018-10-27T18:16:23Z robotoad joined #scheme
2018-10-27T18:35:01Z klovett joined #scheme
2018-10-27T18:45:01Z oni-on-ion quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.9.1)
2018-10-27T18:50:02Z oni-on-ion joined #scheme
2018-10-27T18:50:27Z Guest13389 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2018-10-27T18:59:19Z zachk joined #scheme
2018-10-27T18:59:59Z lambda-11235 quit (Quit: Bye)
2018-10-27T19:00:40Z DGASAU` joined #scheme
2018-10-27T19:01:28Z Nizumzen left #scheme
2018-10-27T19:02:13Z DGASAU quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
2018-10-27T19:03:22Z Guest13389 joined #scheme
2018-10-27T19:08:29Z zachk quit (Changing host)
2018-10-27T19:08:29Z zachk joined #scheme
2018-10-27T19:10:53Z catonano quit (Quit: catonano)
2018-10-27T19:11:22Z catonano joined #scheme
2018-10-27T19:14:31Z marusich joined #scheme
2018-10-27T19:15:12Z ggole quit (Quit: ggole)
2018-10-27T19:23:34Z TheGreekOwl joined #scheme
2018-10-27T19:24:45Z muelleme quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2018-10-27T19:38:13Z lavaflow joined #scheme
2018-10-27T19:45:07Z karlguy joined #scheme
2018-10-27T19:52:51Z klovett_ joined #scheme
2018-10-27T19:56:11Z klovett quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
2018-10-27T20:02:14Z alexshendi joined #scheme
2018-10-27T20:08:39Z alexshendi quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2018-10-27T20:18:17Z bars0 joined #scheme
2018-10-27T20:21:22Z muelleme joined #scheme
2018-10-27T20:25:53Z muelleme quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2018-10-27T20:44:28Z klovett joined #scheme
2018-10-27T20:47:51Z klovett_ quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
2018-10-27T20:57:16Z razzy joined #scheme
2018-10-27T21:03:54Z badkins joined #scheme
2018-10-27T21:14:57Z catonano quit (Quit: catonano)
2018-10-27T21:15:26Z catonano joined #scheme
2018-10-27T21:17:15Z charh joined #scheme
2018-10-27T21:21:15Z zachk quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2018-10-27T21:21:49Z zachk joined #scheme
2018-10-27T21:22:35Z zachk quit (Changing host)
2018-10-27T21:22:35Z zachk joined #scheme
2018-10-27T21:23:10Z jcob joined #scheme
2018-10-27T21:33:06Z jcob quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2018-10-27T21:33:40Z jcob joined #scheme
2018-10-27T21:34:53Z jcob quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2018-10-27T21:35:35Z jcob joined #scheme
2018-10-27T21:47:35Z acarrico quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2018-10-27T21:50:35Z muelleme joined #scheme
2018-10-27T21:50:52Z Labu quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2018-10-27T21:56:34Z muelleme quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
2018-10-27T21:59:15Z pierpal joined #scheme
2018-10-27T22:08:08Z Zaab1t quit (Quit: bye bye friends)
2018-10-27T22:11:52Z bars0 quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2018-10-27T22:25:17Z klovett_ joined #scheme
2018-10-27T22:28:39Z klovett quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2018-10-27T22:30:27Z ngz joined #scheme
2018-10-27T22:54:44Z catonano quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2018-10-27T22:54:51Z robotoad quit (Quit: robotoad)
2018-10-27T22:55:01Z catonano joined #scheme
2018-10-27T23:03:35Z ngz quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
2018-10-27T23:03:44Z pierpal quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
2018-10-27T23:08:26Z daviid quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2018-10-27T23:13:43Z civodul quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 26.1))
2018-10-27T23:17:20Z Labu joined #scheme
2018-10-27T23:23:47Z marusich quit (Quit: Leaving)
2018-10-27T23:24:38Z karlguy quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2018-10-27T23:29:05Z catonano quit (Quit: catonano)
2018-10-27T23:31:33Z klovett joined #scheme
2018-10-27T23:33:04Z klovett_ quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2018-10-27T23:43:38Z karlguy joined #scheme
2018-10-27T23:43:55Z jcob quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2018-10-28T00:18:18Z zachk quit (Quit: Leaving)
2018-10-28T00:22:40Z skapata quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2018-10-28T00:27:59Z charh quit (Quit: zzz)
2018-10-28T00:36:14Z daviid joined #scheme
2018-10-28T00:46:45Z lyf[kde] joined #scheme
2018-10-28T00:48:13Z lyf[kde]: `man gsi` says it is impossible to list all available options in the man page and it refers us to the info page. :(
2018-10-28T00:49:19Z lyf[kde]: and this is what `gsc -h ` says: Unknown or improperly placed -h option
2018-10-28T00:51:16Z jcob joined #scheme
2018-10-28T00:52:38Z lyf[kde]: The state of Gambit's documentation: most of the documentation is on their mailing list.
2018-10-28T00:53:03Z lyf[kde]: Guess I'll stay with racket
2018-10-28T01:00:15Z jcowan: The high-performing Schemes aren't, for whatever reason, very well documented: Gambit, Chez, and especially Stalin
2018-10-28T01:00:30Z jcowan: Chez is the best of the three
2018-10-28T01:01:28Z lyf[kde]: It was non-free for a long time. Debian stable and Ubuntu < 18.04 don't even have a package for it
2018-10-28T01:14:24Z lyf[kde] quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2018-10-28T01:20:57Z lyf[kde] joined #scheme
2018-10-28T01:21:08Z lyf[kde] quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2018-10-28T01:26:01Z robotoad joined #scheme
2018-10-28T01:35:27Z jcob quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2018-10-28T01:38:37Z amz3 quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.9.1)
2018-10-28T01:39:18Z ozzloy quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2018-10-28T01:39:54Z lavaflow quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2018-10-28T01:41:15Z Zipheir: Is Stalin still being developed?
2018-10-28T01:43:46Z Ober: jcowan: gambit is not well documented?
2018-10-28T01:44:05Z Ober: ahh man pages
2018-10-28T01:44:37Z jcowan: Stalin is not being developed and never will be
2018-10-28T01:44:57Z jcowan: The author has abandoned it, and the "community" is so dysfunctional it does not even have a mailing list.
2018-10-28T01:45:11Z Zipheir: I guess the Secret Speech was given long ago, then.
2018-10-28T01:46:11Z jcowan: There are only two comments in each source file, they are the same in every source file, they are in Hebrew, and they are entirely religious.
2018-10-28T01:46:25Z jcowan: There is a README file, but otherwise that's it.
2018-10-28T01:46:31Z Zipheir: Wow
2018-10-28T01:47:15Z Zipheir: That's one way to ensure no one ever forks your compiler.
2018-10-28T01:48:11Z jcowan: If you leave off the -i switch, the compiler fails because it does not support operation without -i.  This is easily bypassed by changing the script that starts Stalin, and I did so, but where could I sent this obvious patch?  Nowhere.
2018-10-28T01:48:35Z jcowan: There is also a paper about how the compiler works which I at least find utterly impenetrable.
2018-10-28T01:48:50Z jcowan: Only R4RS is supported (without the optional macros)
2018-10-28T01:49:29Z lavaflow joined #scheme
2018-10-28T01:49:41Z jcowan: It does huge amounts of interprocedural optimization, and it is a complete dead end.
2018-10-28T01:53:00Z wigust quit (Quit: ZNC 1.7.1 - https://znc.in)
2018-10-28T02:08:23Z robotoad quit (Quit: robotoad)
2018-10-28T02:14:54Z erkin quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2018-10-28T02:30:04Z Zipheir: I saw a thread blaming R5RS for killing Stalin's momentum, which seems like bogus.
2018-10-28T02:30:38Z Zipheir: IIRC Stalin's developer never really even embraced R4RS fully.
2018-10-28T02:31:36Z daviid quit (Read error: No route to host)
2018-10-28T02:31:51Z muelleme joined #scheme
2018-10-28T02:34:09Z robotoad joined #scheme
2018-10-28T02:36:28Z muelleme quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2018-10-28T02:37:29Z Riastradh: Stalin was more of a subproblem of Jeff Siskind's research program than a project in its own right.
2018-10-28T02:39:17Z robotoad quit (Quit: robotoad)
2018-10-28T02:40:16Z siraben: What was his research program about?
2018-10-28T02:40:30Z Riastradh: Some papers and software splintered off of that, but not as living projects.  Same is true of successors like the automatic differentiation projects with Barak Pearlmutter.
2018-10-28T02:41:32Z Riastradh: AI, robotics, computer vision, stuff like that.
2018-10-28T02:44:31Z Riastradh: Recognized that AD is important when nobody else cared about it, so spent several years on a research subprogram of a high-performance compiler for AD with Barak Pearlmutter, Alexey Radul, and others.  Now AD is pretty mainstream.
2018-10-28T02:45:59Z robotoad joined #scheme
2018-10-28T02:47:18Z Riastradh: (`Nobody else' is an exaggeration, but AD was a kind of obscure technique in academia with limited cumbersome tools and used only for specialized applications.)
2018-10-28T02:57:57Z karlguy quit (Quit: Leaving)
2018-10-28T02:59:03Z ski . o O ( "Automatic Differentiation in Machine Learning: a Survey" by Atilim Gunes Baydin,Barak A. Pearlmutter,Alexey Andreyevich Radul,Jeffrey Mark Siskind in 2018 at <http://jmlr.org/papers/v18/17-468.html> )
2018-10-28T03:00:39Z Riastradh: That's a good overview.  If anyone had asked me about AD that's what I would have pointed to.
2018-10-28T03:04:19Z siraben: What makes automatic differentiation hard?
2018-10-28T03:04:29Z siraben: Isn't it pretty easy to do it symbolically?
2018-10-28T03:04:54Z siraben: Or by using first principles?
2018-10-28T03:06:26Z Riastradh: siraben: May I suggest the good overview at <https://engineering.purdue.edu/~qobi/papers/jmlr2018.pdf>?
2018-10-28T03:07:33Z jonaslund quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2018-10-28T03:09:39Z xkapastel quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity)
2018-10-28T03:24:22Z ski: hm, i first heard of AD perhaps around 2001 or so (from LtU), in "Functional Differentiation of Computer Programs" in 2000 at <https://karczmarczuk.users.greyc.fr/arpap/diffalg.pdf>,"Adjoint Codes in Functional Framework" in 2000 at <https://karczmarczuk.users.greyc.fr/arpap/revdiff.ps>,"Lazy Time Reversal, and Automatic Differentiation" in 2001(?) at <https://karczmarczuk.users.greyc.fr/arpap/revpearl.pdf>
2018-10-28T03:24:28Z ski: all by Jerzy Karczmarczuk at <https://karczmarczuk.users.greyc.fr/arpap>
2018-10-28T03:25:34Z ski: siraben : it's not symbolic differentiation (nor does it try to approximate `lim_{h -> 0} (f(x + h) - f(x)) / h' for small `h')
2018-10-28T03:34:22Z daviid joined #scheme
2018-10-28T03:52:35Z nly quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2018-10-28T03:53:34Z nly joined #scheme
2018-10-28T03:55:23Z nlyy joined #scheme
2018-10-28T03:58:18Z nly quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2018-10-28T04:06:21Z nlyy quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2018-10-28T04:10:01Z nly joined #scheme
2018-10-28T04:19:50Z nly quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2018-10-28T04:26:19Z pierpal joined #scheme
2018-10-28T04:29:01Z elderK joined #scheme
2018-10-28T04:42:49Z pierpal quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2018-10-28T05:10:37Z nly joined #scheme
2018-10-28T05:15:40Z nly quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2018-10-28T05:21:55Z klovett quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2018-10-28T05:22:34Z klovett joined #scheme
2018-10-28T05:25:51Z catonano joined #scheme
2018-10-28T05:26:27Z daviid quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2018-10-28T05:27:12Z nly joined #scheme
2018-10-28T05:29:19Z lockywolf joined #scheme
2018-10-28T05:30:27Z lockywolf quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2018-10-28T05:30:51Z lockywolf joined #scheme
2018-10-28T05:35:53Z pierpal joined #scheme
2018-10-28T05:36:29Z ggole joined #scheme
2018-10-28T05:39:19Z pierpal quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2018-10-28T05:40:41Z lockywolf_ joined #scheme
2018-10-28T05:42:39Z pierpal joined #scheme
2018-10-28T05:42:39Z nly quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2018-10-28T05:42:57Z lockywolf quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2018-10-28T05:51:12Z pierpal quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2018-10-28T06:03:00Z klovett quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2018-10-28T06:03:00Z lockywolf_: Hm..., may I ask again about Chibi?
2018-10-28T06:03:40Z klovett_ joined #scheme
2018-10-28T06:04:00Z Zipheir: Nein!
2018-10-28T06:04:38Z lockywolf_: http://synthcode.com/scheme/chibi/lib/chibi/repl.html
2018-10-28T06:04:38Z lockywolf_: Really, what are the 'keyword parameters'?
2018-10-28T06:05:41Z lockywolf_: Say, how do I customise the prompt?
2018-10-28T06:06:29Z lockywolf_: make-prompt: - a procedure taking one argument (the current module name as a list) and returning a string to be used as the prompt
2018-10-28T06:06:57Z lockywolf_: What does it mean?
2018-10-28T06:07:05Z Zipheir: lockywolf_: They're symbols ending in :
2018-10-28T06:09:27Z lockywolf_ quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2018-10-28T06:11:25Z Zipheir: lockywolf_: Presumably you set! those symbols to customize the REPL, but the description of make-prompt: is indeed a bit obscure.
2018-10-28T06:11:50Z lockywolf_ joined #scheme
2018-10-28T06:12:19Z lockywolf_: How do I use those symbols? I have to admit, I'm very much of a newbie.
2018-10-28T06:12:40Z lockywolf_: > (symbol? 'make-prompt:)
2018-10-28T06:12:41Z lockywolf_: #t
2018-10-28T06:12:58Z lockywolf_: > make-prompt:
2018-10-28T06:12:58Z lockywolf_: ERROR: undefined variable: make-prompt:
2018-10-28T06:12:58Z lockywolf_: Searching for modules exporting make-prompt: ...
2018-10-28T06:12:58Z lockywolf_: ... none found.
2018-10-28T06:12:58Z lockywolf_: > (make-prompt:)
2018-10-28T06:12:58Z lockywolf_: ERROR: undefined variable: make-prompt:
2018-10-28T06:13:05Z lockywolf_: Searching for modules exporting make-prompt: ...
2018-10-28T06:13:05Z lockywolf_: ... none found.
2018-10-28T06:14:37Z aeth: Keywords are special symbols that are generally used as function parameters in a Lisp. Usually they are ":foo", "foo:", or "#:foo". Apparently in chibi they are "foo:"
2018-10-28T06:15:02Z aeth: e.g. (hello foo: 42) (or one of the other 2 styles depending on the language) would be like hello(foo=42)
2018-10-28T06:15:35Z aeth: That's a confusing page. Based on that page, I'd expect some function with keyword arguments.
2018-10-28T06:16:08Z aeth: But it's also possible that they're variables/procedures of their own with keyword names and you just need to load (chibi repl) first
2018-10-28T06:16:14Z ski: i think `make-prompt:' is not a predefined procedure. rather, you're supposed to provide a procedure that behaves as you quoted, if you use the `make-prompt:' keyword with the chibi repl procedure (not sure how that's called)
2018-10-28T06:17:27Z Zipheir: The Chibi REPL docs are a bit thin...
2018-10-28T06:17:35Z lockywolf_: lockywolf@delllaptop:~$ chibi-scheme -R make-prompt: \'\(display\ \"Hello\,\ world\"\)
2018-10-28T06:17:36Z lockywolf_: couldn't find module: make-prompt:
2018-10-28T06:18:15Z lockywolf_: yeah, kinda...
2018-10-28T06:19:04Z Riastradh: I'm guessing there's a procedure, maybe even called `repl', in the module (chibi repl).
2018-10-28T06:19:13Z ski: perhaps there's a flag to `chibi-scheme', with which one can provide an expression to evaluate. perhaps that is by default set to a repl call
2018-10-28T06:19:14Z Zipheir: It claims to support Scheme48-style REPL commands, so you might try ,set make-prompt: ...
2018-10-28T06:19:26Z Riastradh: foof`: The Chibi documentation at <http://synthcode.com/scheme/chibi/lib/chibi/repl.html> appears to be unclear about how to specify the REPL keyword parameters.
2018-10-28T06:20:14Z Riastradh: lockywolf_: Try importing the (chibi repl) module, and then calling (repl escape: #\%) to see if that does it.
2018-10-28T06:22:08Z lockywolf_:  (repl  escape: #\%)
2018-10-28T06:22:09Z lockywolf_: ERROR: undefined variable: escape:
2018-10-28T06:22:09Z lockywolf_: Searching for modules exporting escape: ...
2018-10-28T06:22:09Z lockywolf_: ... none found.
2018-10-28T06:22:09Z lockywolf_: >
2018-10-28T06:22:24Z ski: hm, i think the `(repl . o)' is supposed to head the documentation of the `repl' procedure
2018-10-28T06:22:25Z Riastradh: Maybe :escape or #:escape instead of escape:?
2018-10-28T06:24:28Z lockywolf_: Well, I suspect that (repl . o) is the same as running chibi-scheme -R from bash
2018-10-28T06:25:51Z lockywolf_: Do I understand correctly that (name . o) means 'Function called "name", with optional list of parameters "o"?
2018-10-28T06:26:03Z ski: it sounds likely
2018-10-28T06:27:07Z lockywolf_: I need the dot to delimit mandatory parameters from optional in the definition of a function, right?
2018-10-28T06:28:03Z ski: i don't think so
2018-10-28T06:28:27Z lockywolf_:  (repl make-prompt:(lambda () (display "CL-USER")))
2018-10-28T06:28:27Z lockywolf_: ERROR: undefined variable: make-prompt:
2018-10-28T06:28:27Z lockywolf_: Searching for modules exporting make-prompt: ...
2018-10-28T06:28:50Z Riastradh: lockywolf_: Try the notation :make-prompt or #:make-prompt instead of make-prompt:.
2018-10-28T06:29:16Z ski: (well, when you define a procedure, you can use the dot to allow an arbitrary number of extra parameters after that point. what i meant to say is that i don't think you should use such a dot, when *invoking* such a procedure)
2018-10-28T06:30:10Z ski: (also, i don't think you should have a call to `display' there. simply let the lambda return the string itself)
2018-10-28T06:32:26Z TGO joined #scheme
2018-10-28T06:35:24Z TheGreekOwl quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2018-10-28T06:35:52Z lockywolf_:  (repl make-prompt:(lambda () "CL-USER"))
2018-10-28T06:35:54Z lockywolf_: #<opcode ">">
2018-10-28T06:35:54Z lockywolf_: ERROR: undefined variable: make-prompt:
2018-10-28T06:35:54Z lockywolf_: Searching for modules exporting make-prompt: ...
2018-10-28T06:35:54Z lockywolf_: ... none found.
2018-10-28T06:35:54Z lockywolf_: >
2018-10-28T06:36:08Z Riastradh: lockywolf_: Did you try the notation :make-prompt or the notation #:make-prompt instead?
2018-10-28T06:37:09Z Riastradh: Another possbility is (repl 'make-prompt: (lambda () "CL-USER")).
2018-10-28T06:40:14Z lockywolf_: Hmm... the response is more positive.
2018-10-28T06:40:14Z lockywolf_: > (repl 'make-prompt:(lambda () "CL-USER"))
2018-10-28T06:40:14Z lockywolf_: ERROR in repl/edit-line on line 397 of file /usr/lib64/chibi/chibi/repl.scm: too many args
2018-10-28T06:40:14Z lockywolf_:     #<procedure #f>
2018-10-28T06:40:14Z lockywolf_:     1
2018-10-28T06:40:15Z lockywolf_: >
2018-10-28T06:40:36Z pierpal joined #scheme
2018-10-28T06:40:59Z Riastradh: lockywolf_: That's because the procedure must accept an argument, as the documentation says:  `a procedure taking one argument (the current module name as a list) and returning a string to be used as the prompt'
2018-10-28T06:43:42Z lockywolf_: Ah!
2018-10-28T06:45:34Z TGO quit (Quit: I must go, my planet needs me.)
2018-10-28T06:46:01Z TheGreekOwl joined #scheme
2018-10-28T06:51:17Z lockywolf_: All right, (repl 'make-prompt: (lambda (modulename) "CL-USER>")) runs
2018-10-28T06:51:32Z lockywolf_: Replaces > with CL-USER>
2018-10-28T06:52:42Z catonano quit (Quit: catonano)
2018-10-28T06:53:13Z lockywolf_: Hmm... the repl commands don't seem to be working though...
2018-10-28T06:53:29Z lockywolf_: CL-USER>\exit
2018-10-28T06:53:29Z lockywolf_: ERROR: undefined variable: |\\exit|
2018-10-28T06:53:29Z lockywolf_: Searching for modules exporting |\\exit| ...
2018-10-28T06:53:29Z lockywolf_: ... none found.
2018-10-28T06:53:29Z lockywolf_: CL-USER>\\exit
2018-10-28T06:53:31Z Riastradh: Try customizing the escape character with the escape: option?
2018-10-28T06:53:31Z lockywolf_: ERROR: undefined variable: |\\exit|
2018-10-28T06:53:33Z lockywolf_: Searching for modules exporting |\\exit| ...
2018-10-28T06:53:35Z Riastradh: Try `@exit'?
2018-10-28T06:53:35Z lockywolf_: ... none found.
2018-10-28T06:53:37Z lockywolf_: CL-USER>
2018-10-28T06:53:41Z lockywolf_: will do
2018-10-28T06:53:53Z Riastradh: `By default a command is written as an identifier beginning with an "@" character, but this can be customized with the escape: keyword.'
2018-10-28T06:54:00Z lockywolf_: Yes!
2018-10-28T06:54:02Z lockywolf_: works
2018-10-28T06:54:11Z lockywolf_: I wonder why the documentation has '\'
2018-10-28T06:54:52Z Riastradh: foof`: Why does <http://synthcode.com/scheme/chibi/lib/chibi/repl.html> say `\import' &c. when the default escape character is `@'?
2018-10-28T06:55:06Z lockywolf_: Hm... another thing I'm kinda confused about
2018-10-28T06:55:36Z lockywolf_: To use this repl, run
2018-10-28T06:55:38Z lockywolf_: chibi-scheme -R
2018-10-28T06:55:46Z lockywolf_: this is what the doc says
2018-10-28T06:55:50Z lockywolf_: but...
2018-10-28T06:59:28Z lockywolf_: lockywolf@delllaptop:~$ chibi-scheme --help
2018-10-28T06:59:28Z lockywolf_: <...snip...>
2018-10-28T06:59:28Z lockywolf_: usage: chibi-scheme [<options> ...] [<file> <args> ...]
2018-10-28T06:59:28Z lockywolf_:   -R[<module>] - run main from a module
2018-10-28T06:59:28Z lockywolf_: <...snip...>
2018-10-28T06:59:29Z lockywolf_: lockywolf@delllaptop:~$
2018-10-28T07:02:53Z lockywolf_: lockywolf@delllaptop:~$ chibi-scheme -R '(chibi repl)'
2018-10-28T07:02:54Z lockywolf_: > (repl)
2018-10-28T07:02:54Z lockywolf_: ERROR: undefined variable: repl
2018-10-28T07:02:55Z lockywolf_: Searching for modules exporting repl ...
2018-10-28T07:02:55Z lockywolf_: repl is exported by:
2018-10-28T07:02:55Z lockywolf_:   (chibi repl)
2018-10-28T07:02:55Z lockywolf_: >
2018-10-28T07:07:19Z lockywolf_: eh...
2018-10-28T07:08:08Z lockywolf_: Where could I find the emacs module for psd?
2018-10-28T07:08:09Z lockywolf_: http://www.cs.brandeis.edu/~cs21b/debug-with-psd-html/debug-with-psd.html
2018-10-28T07:08:29Z lockywolf_: It has been recommended to me by Alex Shinn
2018-10-28T07:09:06Z lockywolf_: I found some tutorials about how to use psd-mode for emacs, but don't seem to find it neither in elpa nor for download
2018-10-28T07:12:54Z lockywolf_: By the way, calling in emacs creates the symbols, but C-p and C-n still move the cursor, not browse history.
2018-10-28T07:22:35Z catonano joined #scheme
2018-10-28T07:27:55Z wasamasa: lockywolf_: looks ancient
2018-10-28T07:30:12Z wasamasa: lockywolf_: http://www.cs.tut.fi/staff/pk/scheme/psd/article/section3_10.html#SECTION00010000000000000000
2018-10-28T07:30:18Z wasamasa: lockywolf_: this doesn't look good at all
2018-10-28T07:37:08Z lockywolf_: wasamasa, yeah, 1994
2018-10-28T07:37:21Z lockywolf_: still younger than me
2018-10-28T07:37:51Z wasamasa: it tells you to get it from a defunct ftp server or via email
2018-10-28T07:39:07Z wasamasa: but wait, slib-psd is a thing
2018-10-28T07:39:25Z lockywolf_: https://groups.google.com/d/msg/chibi-scheme/cv_l6VADyJw/1ksCIgFmCwAJ
2018-10-28T07:39:37Z lockywolf_: In the world of Lisp, old is not bad; it may merely mean finished and complete.
2018-10-28T07:39:37Z lockywolf_: See <http://recycledknowledge.blogspot.com/2011/11/john-mccarthy-inventor-of-lisp-died.html>
2018-10-28T07:39:37Z lockywolf_: for John McCarthy's theorem prover from 1960.  It still runs with only the
2018-10-28T07:39:37Z lockywolf_: tiniest of adjustments; this is a Scheme version, but there is also a
2018-10-28T07:39:37Z lockywolf_: Common Lisp one.  There's very little publicly available 60-year-old code that
2018-10-28T07:39:38Z lockywolf_: still does what it says on the tin.
2018-10-28T07:40:02Z wasamasa: that may be, the problem is obtaining these
2018-10-28T07:40:35Z wasamasa: slib is your best bet
2018-10-28T07:41:32Z lockywolf_: http://snow-fort.org/pkg
2018-10-28T07:41:42Z lockywolf_: doesn't seem to be repackaged for r7rs :(
2018-10-28T07:42:11Z wasamasa: lol
2018-10-28T07:42:25Z wasamasa: you don't seem to be terribly experienced with getting old code to run
2018-10-28T07:42:50Z wasamasa: unlike the JS ecosystem there isn't an abundance of people with nothing to do that have solved all of your problems already
2018-10-28T07:44:28Z lockywolf_: No, I'm not. I used to have a girlfriend in the past, so I didn't have time for that.
2018-10-28T07:44:40Z lockywolf_: Perhaps now is the time to learn.
2018-10-28T07:45:15Z lockywolf_: Like, my current working language is Matlab
2018-10-28T07:46:28Z lockywolf_ quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2018-10-28T07:54:04Z lockywolf_ joined #scheme
2018-10-28T07:54:04Z lockywolf_ quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2018-10-28T07:58:37Z lockywolf joined #scheme
2018-10-28T07:58:48Z siraben: *gasp* matlab
2018-10-28T07:59:22Z wasamasa: is this what matlab does to you?
2018-10-28T07:59:31Z lockywolf: I actually came to lisp because I wanted to port one library of subroutines from Fortran 70 to some more modern language.
2018-10-28T07:59:53Z siraben: Should one use Common Lisp for such things?
2018-10-28T08:00:05Z siraben: I suppose Scheme works, but it depends on the "library of subroutines"
2018-10-28T08:00:06Z lockywolf: Doesn't matter, does it?
2018-10-28T08:00:20Z lockywolf: Nah, that idea is abandoned.
2018-10-28T08:00:35Z siraben: lockywolf:  What's your experience with Scheme?
2018-10-28T08:00:53Z lockywolf: I still want to port some stuff from Fortran, but as an exercise only
2018-10-28T08:01:07Z lockywolf: Basically, zero
2018-10-28T08:01:13Z lockywolf: Well, not zero any more
2018-10-28T08:01:40Z lockywolf: Common Lisp is not that much better supported than Scheme
2018-10-28T08:01:57Z wasamasa: CL has excellent emacs integration
2018-10-28T08:02:59Z lockywolf: Well, it's not the reason to stop using Scheme, right?
2018-10-28T08:04:05Z siraben: Emacs Lisp has excellent Emacs integration.
2018-10-28T08:04:10Z wasamasa: that, too
2018-10-28T08:04:23Z wasamasa: so no, I'm just being facetious
2018-10-28T08:04:31Z wasamasa: you probably don't need that scheme debugger anyway
2018-10-28T08:04:41Z wasamasa: it's a nice-to-have thing
2018-10-28T08:04:44Z siraben: lockywolf:  What do your routines look like?
2018-10-28T08:05:06Z siraben: A very accesible numerical calculation library is the Emacs Calculator
2018-10-28T08:12:45Z ccl-logbot joined #scheme
2018-10-28T08:12:45Z 
2018-10-28T08:12:45Z names: ccl-logbot emar cortisol ByronJohnson klovett snits rudybot energizer_ lockywolf catonano TheGreekOwl pierpal ggole elderK robotoad lavaflow Labu badkins razzy Guest13389 DGASAU` oni-on-ion Zenton vyzo remix2000 Inline pie_ aeth jcowan rk4 emacsomancer flerovite pjb Kooda alyptik joast Kkiro ng0 cmatei jp tessier stux|wor- ski emma_ z0d wasamasa X-Scale ravndal dsp averell iskander Zipheir turbofail ft gabot gnomon eagleflo tolja_ yosafbridge davl nckx
2018-10-28T08:12:45Z names: Riastradh sz0 ArneBab keep_learning sethalves edgar-rft niklasl dpk dmiles groovy2shoes hive-mind hugo fadein dTal shymega ecraven gwatt LeoNerd kjak bpalmer terrorjack weinholt wingo Menche lloda m1dnight_ ineiros yumh defanor f8l darthlukan dieggsy carc gko alphor pilcrow blt- amoe r0kc4t siraben evhan cemerick GGMethos Gnuxie[m] drewc pflanze abbe andyt kappa Duns_Scrotus ioa copec vxe Seb[m]11 mbakke proksi[m] remix2000[m] balkamos lpsmith divergence
2018-10-28T08:12:45Z names: eMBee greaser|q kwmiebach weltung stux16777216Away Kryo elly ec physpi jim piccolo dan64 cibs `micro qu1j0t3 sudden willghatch[m] spectrumgomas[m] plll[m] rann kjeldahl mats kilimanjaro kbtr stephe duncanm greghendershott rjungemann samth hook54321 bheesham szgyg fowlduck SirDayBat rain2 ventonegro scroll2_ dkrm_ snow_bckspc Guest40074 DerGuteMoritz pchrist cross mario-goulart Blkt_ Combinatorialist davexunit Ober profan ssake ghostyy fizzie jyc cky
2018-10-28T08:12:45Z names: deuill DeeEff1 asumu ManDay[m] ArthurAGleckler[ nisstyre fgudin foof` ohama payphone pyro- mrm
2018-10-28T08:13:26Z lockywolf: mit scheme?
2018-10-28T08:15:01Z wasamasa: yes
2018-10-28T08:15:20Z M_D_K joined #scheme
2018-10-28T08:16:34Z lockywolf: Well, I sort of wanted to try to learn the last standard, whereas mit only supports r5rs.
2018-10-28T08:16:52Z niklasl quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2018-10-28T08:16:55Z lockywolf: I mean, having psd is not that important for me now.
2018-10-28T08:17:12Z lockywolf: nice to have, but alas
2018-10-28T08:17:16Z ecraven: lockywolf: mit supports quite a bit of r7rs in -git
2018-10-28T08:17:23Z niklasl joined #scheme
2018-10-28T08:17:40Z lockywolf: hm... that's cool
2018-10-28T08:18:02Z wasamasa: r7rs isn't much added over r5rs
2018-10-28T08:18:13Z ecraven: wasamasa: main thing mit doesn't support yet is the library system :-/
2018-10-28T08:18:18Z wasamasa: the biggest stumbling block is having to figure out the module system for your particular implementation
2018-10-28T08:19:02Z wasamasa: while it may support the syntax (no, this isn't a given), the details on how to look up modules to load is deliberately left open
2018-10-28T08:19:18Z wasamasa: this is why I gave up on making racket work with r7rs
2018-10-28T08:21:09Z lockywolf: well, there's the 'red edition' with many libraries in (scheme *)
2018-10-28T08:21:20Z lockywolf: chibi and larceny impement it
2018-10-28T08:21:23Z wasamasa: that's r7rs-large
2018-10-28T08:21:30Z lockywolf: yeah
2018-10-28T08:21:32Z wasamasa: I'm talking about modularizing your software
2018-10-28T08:21:36Z Zaab1t joined #scheme
2018-10-28T08:21:53Z wasamasa: if you split it up into multiple files, getting one to load the other can be a highly frustrating task
2018-10-28T08:22:04Z lockywolf: well, I sort of managed to understand how that's done in chibi
2018-10-28T08:22:09Z wasamasa: for example you might figure out that your implementation doesn't support this at all (see picrin)
2018-10-28T08:22:10Z lockywolf: it's kind like java
2018-10-28T08:22:39Z lockywolf: I have my main.sps in %project_root%
2018-10-28T08:22:50Z wasamasa: or you figure out it only works if the dependencies have been compiled (see cyclone)
2018-10-28T08:23:13Z lockywolf: and the directories called %project_root%/module/submodule
2018-10-28T08:23:19Z wasamasa: or you figure out that it only works if you set up a new module repository and set some environment variables (see CHICKEN)
2018-10-28T08:23:37Z lockywolf: so I just (import (module submodule))
2018-10-28T08:23:44Z lockywolf: exactly
2018-10-28T08:23:48Z wasamasa: or you figure out that the implementation theoretically supports it, but hasn't been designed for it at all (see larceny, racket)
2018-10-28T08:24:05Z wasamasa: my findings are documented in https://github.com/kanaka/mal/tree/master/scheme
2018-10-28T08:24:23Z lockywolf: that's why I'm asking about chibi and snow-fort (I was saying that slib is not completely packaged for snow)
2018-10-28T08:24:48Z lockywolf: chibi is poorly documented, but seems the easiest in this particular aspect
2018-10-28T08:25:15Z wasamasa: lol, if you consider chibi poorly documented, what would you describe racket as?
2018-10-28T08:25:25Z lockywolf: by the way, I found the problem is scheme-complete-0.9.7.el
2018-10-28T08:25:43Z lockywolf: it uses the function called eldoc-current-symbol
2018-10-28T08:25:53Z siraben: wasamasa:  undocumented
2018-10-28T08:26:02Z lockywolf: previously defined in lisp/emacs-lisp/eldoc.el
2018-10-28T08:26:25Z wasamasa: siraben: of course
2018-10-28T08:26:36Z lockywolf: but in 2014 it was renamed to elisp--current-symbol and moved to elisp-mode.el
2018-10-28T08:26:55Z siraben: lockywolf:  What is it that you're trying to achiee?
2018-10-28T08:26:56Z siraben: achieve
2018-10-28T08:27:32Z lockywolf: I was trying to make scheme-complete.el from Alex Shinn's website work with the emacs 26.1 and the last chibi
2018-10-28T08:27:44Z lockywolf: http://synthcode.com/wiki/scheme-complete
2018-10-28T08:28:08Z lockywolf: it has two features
2018-10-28T08:28:14Z lockywolf: the one is autocompletion
2018-10-28T08:28:27Z lockywolf: and the other one is the support for eldoc
2018-10-28T08:28:32Z lockywolf: autocompletion works
2018-10-28T08:28:50Z ecraven: lockywolf: have you seen geiser?
2018-10-28T08:28:58Z ecraven: or r7rs-swank?
2018-10-28T08:29:31Z wasamasa: "Safe search blocked some results for r7rs-swank."
2018-10-28T08:29:43Z siraben: You're using google?
2018-10-28T08:29:48Z wasamasa: ddg
2018-10-28T08:29:57Z lockywolf: haven't
2018-10-28T08:30:12Z siraben: ddg doesn't complain here
2018-10-28T08:30:34Z siraben: I get ecraven's things
2018-10-28T08:30:35Z wasamasa: you must have set it to moderate
2018-10-28T08:30:39Z lockywolf: but I asked on chibi's mailing list, and, Alex suggested scheme-complete
2018-10-28T08:31:10Z siraben: lockywolf:  You're not using Geiser?
2018-10-28T08:31:16Z lockywolf: no
2018-10-28T08:31:23Z siraben: Geiser is the best way to have autocomplete et al.
2018-10-28T08:31:33Z siraben: I suggest you give it a try.
2018-10-28T08:32:59Z lockywolf: okay, I'll have a look
2018-10-28T08:33:31Z siraben: wasamasa:  you use geiser, right?
2018-10-28T08:33:35Z wasamasa: nope
2018-10-28T08:33:43Z siraben: lockywolf:  Which scheme implementation you using?
2018-10-28T08:33:44Z siraben: wasamasa:  What, then?
2018-10-28T08:33:48Z siraben: And what implementation?
2018-10-28T08:34:34Z wasamasa: I use CHICKEN, do some experimentation in the terminal with csi and have completion configured there
2018-10-28T08:34:40Z lockywolf: chibi
2018-10-28T08:34:50Z wasamasa: geiser is just too iffy for me
2018-10-28T08:34:59Z lockywolf: what does iffy mean?
2018-10-28T08:35:07Z wasamasa: slows down emacs, crappy completions, impossible to debug
2018-10-28T08:35:29Z lockywolf: ow, nice, installing a new package completely freezes emacs.
2018-10-28T08:35:47Z siraben: lockywolf:  Emacs doesn't use multithreading very well :)
2018-10-28T08:35:54Z wasamasa: multithreading can't fix this
2018-10-28T08:36:03Z wasamasa: the reason why this happens is byte-compilation
2018-10-28T08:36:11Z wasamasa: you use up 100% CPU
2018-10-28T08:36:25Z lockywolf: nah, it's not compilation
2018-10-28T08:36:28Z siraben: wasamasa:  Do you have auto parens in your csi temminal?
2018-10-28T08:36:31Z ecraven: wasamasa: tried r7rs-swank
2018-10-28T08:36:33Z ecraven: ?
2018-10-28T08:36:40Z wasamasa: ecraven: I don't plan to, no
2018-10-28T08:36:44Z lockywolf: it's multithreading.
2018-10-28T08:37:01Z lockywolf: while it connects to https, everything stops
2018-10-28T08:37:10Z siraben: lockywolf:  Which package are you installing?
2018-10-28T08:37:16Z siraben: Oh, I don't think chibi has integration with Geiser
2018-10-28T08:37:24Z wasamasa: lockywolf: what version are you on?
2018-10-28T08:37:28Z siraben: Try Guile, CHICKEN, Chez et al.
2018-10-28T08:38:03Z lockywolf: nah, I don't want to jump from version to version
2018-10-28T08:38:26Z wasamasa: anyway, it doesn't matter, I've just found that emacs uses url-insert-file-contents to get the archive file which uses a synchronous command internally ;_;
2018-10-28T08:38:44Z lockywolf: had my share of 'try a new version of X' in 2003, when trying to choose a linux distro
2018-10-28T08:38:45Z siraben: Well, if you don't know much Scheme right now it doesn't matter.
2018-10-28T08:38:57Z siraben: ^the implementation
2018-10-28T08:39:07Z siraben: So what version of Emacs is this?
2018-10-28T08:39:11Z lockywolf: 26.1
2018-10-28T08:39:25Z siraben: That's the latest stable, congrats!
2018-10-28T08:39:39Z siraben: Have you used Emacs before?
2018-10-28T08:39:45Z lockywolf: I know!
2018-10-28T08:39:48Z wasamasa: I love how async support is still optional in this version of package.el
2018-10-28T08:41:22Z lockywolf: not much. but emacs is not that difficult
2018-10-28T08:41:32Z lockywolf: plus I wanted to learn it anyway
2018-10-28T08:41:44Z wasamasa: anyway, I can deal with package installation being blocking because it happens only occasionally
2018-10-28T08:41:50Z wasamasa: with geiser there's just no excuse
2018-10-28T08:42:12Z lockywolf: nah, it's already installed. just amused me
2018-10-28T08:42:19Z lockywolf: I mean, I don't install packages every day.
2018-10-28T08:42:36Z lockywolf: Oh, I mean, I do, but in general I shouldn't.
2018-10-28T08:43:08Z lockywolf: I mean, there are much-much worse pieces of code, even though written with the best vogue in mind
2018-10-28T08:43:16Z lockywolf: Eclipse, for example
2018-10-28T08:43:38Z lockywolf: Can do package installation in background. But it doesn't stop it from being a mess.
2018-10-28T08:43:53Z wasamasa: it doesn't solve that byte-compiling the package still blocks
2018-10-28T08:44:18Z wasamasa: to solve that properly you'd need something like worker processes
2018-10-28T08:45:06Z lockywolf: well, С11 does have multithreading built-in\
2018-10-28T08:45:15Z lockywolf: so perhaps some time...
2018-10-28T08:45:25Z wasamasa: that's completely irrelevant
2018-10-28T08:45:49Z wasamasa: the problem is retrofitting an existing stupidly huge program into working well with such facilities
2018-10-28T08:46:05Z lockywolf: yeah, true
2018-10-28T08:46:07Z wasamasa: adding an extra process type and a convenient API shouldn't be too hard (it has been done by the community already)
2018-10-28T08:46:34Z wasamasa: integrating actual threads that run concurrently without unleashing bugs from everything being mutated is far trickier
2018-10-28T08:46:49Z wasamasa: the current threading support isn't concurrent
2018-10-28T08:46:59Z wasamasa: yet it's as heavyweight as the concurrent solutions out there
2018-10-28T08:47:07Z lockywolf: well, maybe for it to happen we may actually need elisp replaced with scheme?
2018-10-28T08:47:10Z wasamasa: worst of both worlds :>
2018-10-28T08:47:16Z wasamasa: another completely irrelevant point
2018-10-28T08:47:35Z wasamasa: please don't bring in your fantasies here
2018-10-28T08:47:43Z lockywolf: well, the compiler should be language-dependent somehow
2018-10-28T08:47:57Z muelleme joined #scheme
2018-10-28T08:48:02Z lockywolf: although I have no idea what happens inside emacs
2018-10-28T08:48:08Z wasamasa: start with that
2018-10-28T08:48:18Z remix2000 quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.2-dev)
2018-10-28T08:48:53Z remix2000 joined #scheme
2018-10-28T08:49:09Z lockywolf: is there an easy way to count the number of occurrences of a substring in a buffer in emacs?
2018-10-28T08:50:09Z rk4: i can confidently say yes.
2018-10-28T08:50:21Z wasamasa: look at the source of `how-many'
2018-10-28T08:51:34Z daviid joined #scheme
2018-10-28T08:52:44Z muelleme quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
2018-10-28T08:56:19Z lockywolf: that's not an entirely easy way :)
2018-10-28T08:56:28Z lockywolf: dealt with it using grep
2018-10-28T08:57:19Z lockywolf quit (Quit: Leaving)
2018-10-28T08:59:06Z lockywolf joined #scheme
2018-10-28T09:07:51Z lockywolf: all right
2018-10-28T09:07:51Z lockywolf: nailed it
2018-10-28T09:08:55Z lockywolf: just replacing the eldoc-current-symbol with elisp--current-symbol and eldoc-fnsym-in-current-sexp with elisp--fnsym-in-current-sexp makes eldoc work again
2018-10-28T09:09:36Z lockywolf: I'm not sure how courteous it is to call other modes' functions in emacs. But at least as a quick bodge it seems to do the job.
2018-10-28T09:10:59Z lockywolf quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2018-10-28T09:12:30Z lockywolf joined #scheme
2018-10-28T09:13:26Z lockywolf_ joined #scheme
2018-10-28T09:15:44Z lockywolf_: All right, so I emailed a super simple patch to Alex Shinn
2018-10-28T09:17:11Z lockywolf quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
2018-10-28T09:17:40Z lockywolf_: I'd have never thought I'd have had to fix bugs in elisp code in order to program in scheme.
2018-10-28T09:17:47Z lockywolf_: lol
2018-10-28T09:26:00Z lockywolf__ joined #scheme
2018-10-28T09:28:52Z lockywolf_ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2018-10-28T09:35:33Z catonano quit (Quit: catonano)
2018-10-28T09:52:41Z siraben: Jackie:  Have you watched the lectures?
2018-10-28T09:52:50Z siraben: I agree, it's somewhat math reliant, but you can more or less ignore it.
2018-10-28T09:55:46Z lockywolf__ quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2018-10-28T09:56:44Z lockywolf__ joined #scheme
2018-10-28T10:07:34Z TheGreekOwl quit (Quit: I must go, my planet needs me.)
2018-10-28T10:07:44Z clog joined #scheme
2018-10-28T10:13:45Z pie_ quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2018-10-28T10:18:53Z robotoad quit (Quit: robotoad)
2018-10-28T10:20:26Z lockywolf__ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2018-10-28T10:26:12Z catonano joined #scheme
2018-10-28T10:30:36Z lockywolf joined #scheme
2018-10-28T10:33:04Z robotoad joined #scheme
2018-10-28T10:33:17Z vyzo quit (Quit: Leaving.)
2018-10-28T10:42:14Z robotoad quit (Quit: robotoad)
2018-10-28T11:08:19Z Zaab1t quit (Quit: bye bye friends)
2018-10-28T11:15:59Z niklasl2 joined #scheme
2018-10-28T11:16:05Z lockywolf: friends, how do I check that a value is true?
2018-10-28T11:16:55Z lockywolf: I mean, I can run (boolean? #f)
2018-10-28T11:17:17Z lockywolf: but what about more complicated objects?
2018-10-28T11:17:51Z wasamasa: why do you need to check that?
2018-10-28T11:17:59Z wasamasa: you can just use the value in an if or cond
2018-10-28T11:18:04Z wasamasa: everything except #f is truthy
2018-10-28T11:19:16Z catonano quit (Quit: catonano)
2018-10-28T11:19:44Z niklasl quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2018-10-28T11:20:23Z lockywolf: (if "hello" (display "true") (display "false"))
2018-10-28T11:20:32Z lockywolf: yeah, that's just what I concocted
2018-10-28T11:21:25Z lockywolf: another question. is there a universal object->string method in Scheme?
2018-10-28T11:21:36Z lockywolf: #f -> "#f"
2018-10-28T11:22:34Z lockywolf: I'm still playing with the 'make-prompt function in chibi
2018-10-28T11:23:01Z lockywolf: and it turns out that by default the module name given to my lambda is #f
2018-10-28T11:23:59Z wasamasa: you can make one by using string ports and display/write
2018-10-28T11:24:12Z wasamasa: if you don't have string ports, sucks to be you
2018-10-28T11:24:19Z wasamasa: this is one of the nice things they added in r7rs
2018-10-28T11:24:46Z catonano joined #scheme
2018-10-28T11:26:21Z iskander quit (Quit: Quit)
2018-10-28T11:28:42Z lockywolf: I guess, Chibi has string ports.
2018-10-28T11:29:48Z iskander joined #scheme
2018-10-28T11:29:48Z daviid quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
2018-10-28T11:30:04Z wasamasa: here's a template: https://github.com/kanaka/mal/blob/master/scheme/lib/util.sld#L41-L44
2018-10-28T11:33:45Z lockywolf: Ah, sleak
2018-10-28T11:33:51Z lockywolf: Looks cool
2018-10-28T11:51:30Z thinkpad` joined #scheme
2018-10-28T11:51:53Z thinkpad` left #scheme
2018-10-28T11:56:33Z lockywolf quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2018-10-28T11:56:51Z lockywolf joined #scheme
2018-10-28T11:59:56Z xkapastel joined #scheme
2018-10-28T12:08:11Z lockywolf: does anyone know what is a PLT Collection?
2018-10-28T12:08:14Z lockywolf: and what is a 'keyword search' in quack.el?
2018-10-28T12:08:40Z lockywolf: 'View Keyword Docs...'
2018-10-28T12:09:23Z lockywolf: seems to always say 'Sorry, no documentation found for keyword "format".
2018-10-28T12:09:24Z lockywolf: '
2018-10-28T12:09:33Z lockywolf: for basically any keyword
2018-10-28T12:09:33Z wasamasa: prepare to study some more elisp code
2018-10-28T12:09:48Z wasamasa: chances are you need to download some docs and the code doesn't check if there are any
2018-10-28T12:22:41Z siraben: What's quack.el?
2018-10-28T12:23:04Z wasamasa: some scheme integration thing
2018-10-28T12:23:10Z siraben: It's not in the main Emacs Git repository
2018-10-28T12:23:12Z siraben: Ah I see.
2018-10-28T12:23:18Z siraben: Is it a package?
2018-10-28T12:24:17Z wasamasa: it is
2018-10-28T12:28:07Z catonano quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2018-10-28T12:29:07Z thevishy joined #scheme
2018-10-28T12:33:49Z catonano joined #scheme
2018-10-28T12:34:08Z lockywolf quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
2018-10-28T12:34:19Z muelleme joined #scheme
2018-10-28T12:36:34Z amerigo joined #scheme
2018-10-28T12:36:54Z amerigo: what is the meaning of angle brackets in scheme code?
2018-10-28T12:37:49Z wasamasa: they're not in the standard, so you can repurpose them for marking up something, like classes
2018-10-28T12:38:02Z bars0 joined #scheme
2018-10-28T12:39:18Z muelleme quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2018-10-28T12:40:12Z amerigo:   (define-record-type (<encountered> encountered encountered?)
2018-10-28T12:40:12Z amerigo:     (fields
2018-10-28T12:40:12Z amerigo:      (immutable a a-val)))
2018-10-28T12:40:35Z amerigo: it's not repurposed anywhere
2018-10-28T12:40:42Z amerigo: i mean marked
2018-10-28T12:41:15Z amerigo: so they are ignored by the compiler?
2018-10-28T12:42:10Z wasamasa: let's look up define-record-type in r7rs
2018-10-28T12:43:07Z wasamasa: ok, that's not the one
2018-10-28T12:43:32Z amerigo: no mention of them in chez scheme user guide
2018-10-28T12:43:34Z wasamasa: look up how it works, that will answer your question
2018-10-28T12:43:40Z wasamasa: so r6rs?
2018-10-28T12:43:51Z amerigo: also no
2018-10-28T12:44:16Z wasamasa: you were the one to mention chez
2018-10-28T12:44:43Z amerigo: the only mention of angle brackets is to mark non-terminals in documentation
2018-10-28T12:45:00Z wasamasa: sure, but what I'm suggesting you is to look up how define-record-type works
2018-10-28T12:45:06Z wasamasa: chances are that answers your question
2018-10-28T12:45:21Z amerigo: ok
2018-10-28T12:45:24Z bars0 quit (Quit: leaving)
2018-10-28T12:45:52Z wasamasa: it appears to take a list of the record name, constructor name and predicate name
2018-10-28T12:46:01Z wasamasa: so all this does is giving an instance of that type that name
2018-10-28T12:46:44Z wasamasa: the instance would then be printed like #<encountered> or whatever
2018-10-28T12:56:37Z amerigo: so they are treated just like any other character
2018-10-28T12:56:49Z amirouche joined #scheme
2018-10-28T12:57:02Z amerigo: it seems so from what i see
2018-10-28T12:57:10Z amirouche is now known as amz3
2018-10-28T12:57:12Z amerigo: but I thought there exists some kind of convention
2018-10-28T12:57:35Z wasamasa: I mentioned it right at the beginning
2018-10-28T12:57:49Z amerigo: as always, thans wasamasa for patience for noob questions
2018-10-28T12:57:49Z wasamasa: it can be used for any purpose, such as marking up classes
2018-10-28T12:57:58Z wasamasa: or in this example, marking up custom record types
2018-10-28T13:05:34Z niklasl2 quit (Quit: Nettalk6 - www.ntalk.de)
2018-10-28T13:05:51Z niklasl joined #scheme
2018-10-28T13:15:07Z amerigo quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2018-10-28T13:19:36Z thevishy quit (Quit: thevishy)
2018-10-28T13:32:12Z skapata joined #scheme
2018-10-28T13:32:32Z klovett_ joined #scheme
2018-10-28T13:34:47Z catonano quit (Quit: catonano)
2018-10-28T13:35:25Z catonano joined #scheme
2018-10-28T13:35:28Z klovett quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2018-10-28T13:44:52Z alezost joined #scheme
2018-10-28T14:00:27Z catonano quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2018-10-28T14:02:21Z Zaab1t joined #scheme
2018-10-28T14:03:17Z catonano joined #scheme
2018-10-28T14:16:09Z pierpal quit (Quit: Poof)
2018-10-28T14:16:31Z pierpal joined #scheme
2018-10-28T14:32:11Z pie_ joined #scheme
2018-10-28T14:32:11Z pierpal quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
2018-10-28T14:44:48Z nlyy joined #scheme
2018-10-28T14:45:18Z nlyy quit (Quit: Quit)
2018-10-28T14:45:41Z nly joined #scheme
2018-10-28T14:47:38Z lritter joined #scheme
2018-10-28T14:49:01Z alezost quit (Quit: I live in GuixSD <http://www.gnu.org/s/guix> and Emacs <http://www.gnu.org/s/emacs>)
2018-10-28T14:54:57Z johnjay joined #scheme
2018-10-28T14:58:45Z catonano quit (Quit: catonano)
2018-10-28T14:59:23Z catonano joined #scheme
2018-10-28T15:03:15Z erkin joined #scheme
2018-10-28T15:11:54Z jcowan: for the record, the keywords in (chibi repl) need to be quoted, and they do not work from inside the repl, only as arguments to (repl), like (repl 'escape: #\?).
2018-10-28T15:18:48Z nly quit (Quit: Quit)
2018-10-28T15:19:01Z nly joined #scheme
2018-10-28T15:27:41Z acarrico joined #scheme
2018-10-28T15:34:24Z catonano quit (Quit: catonano)
2018-10-28T15:34:28Z muelleme joined #scheme
2018-10-28T15:35:06Z catonano joined #scheme
2018-10-28T15:41:56Z muelleme quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2018-10-28T16:14:50Z pierpal joined #scheme
2018-10-28T16:21:01Z hugh_marera joined #scheme
2018-10-28T16:25:33Z rain2: https://www.cs.indiana.edu/~dyb/pubs/call1cc.pdf
2018-10-28T16:25:35Z rain2: hey
2018-10-28T16:25:40Z rain2: i was looking at this paper about 1 shot continuations
2018-10-28T16:25:45Z rain2: it says they can be used for nondeterminism
2018-10-28T16:26:12Z rain2: I thought that required multi-shot continuations. What's an example of something that truly requires multi-shot continuations?
2018-10-28T16:28:24Z pierpal quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2018-10-28T16:28:37Z pierpal joined #scheme
2018-10-28T16:28:46Z elderK quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity)
2018-10-28T16:33:56Z muelleme joined #scheme
2018-10-28T16:35:21Z gwatt: rain2: It says "One-shot continuations cannot be used to implement nondeterminism. ... In these sorts of applications, multi-shot continuations must still be used."
2018-10-28T16:36:39Z rain2: ah i read it wrong! thanks!
2018-10-28T16:41:21Z rain2: https://www.scheme.com/csug8/control.html the implementation in chez will implicitly promote one shot to multi shot if needed
2018-10-28T16:43:34Z catonano quit (Quit: catonano)
2018-10-28T16:47:24Z pjb quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2018-10-28T16:48:16Z catonano joined #scheme
2018-10-28T16:48:32Z Zaab1t quit (Quit: bye bye friends)
2018-10-28T16:51:36Z Riastradh: rain2: You might like delimited/composable/partial continuations if you haven't seen them yet.
2018-10-28T16:51:54Z Riastradh: Pretty much everything about them is better than `full' continuations.
2018-10-28T16:51:55Z rain2: yeah I have been reading about them too
2018-10-28T16:52:30Z rain2: it's a bit hard to figure out how to implement this stuff though
2018-10-28T16:52:49Z Riastradh: https://mumble.net/~campbell/scheme/shift-reset.scm
2018-10-28T16:53:44Z gwatt: rain2: Chez will only promote a one-shot to a multi-shot if the one-shot is live when call/cc is invoked
2018-10-28T16:56:57Z rain2: very nice to see how to define them using call/cc
2018-10-28T16:58:34Z pjb joined #scheme
2018-10-28T17:00:33Z muelleme quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2018-10-28T17:03:05Z pie_ quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2018-10-28T17:03:24Z pie_ joined #scheme
2018-10-28T17:12:13Z nly quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2018-10-28T17:15:59Z nly joined #scheme
2018-10-28T17:19:45Z oni-on-ion quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2018-10-28T17:34:34Z pierpal quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
2018-10-28T17:37:06Z daviid joined #scheme
2018-10-28T17:46:12Z pierpal joined #scheme
2018-10-28T17:46:41Z energizer_ is now known as energizer
2018-10-28T17:59:47Z pierpal quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2018-10-28T18:00:17Z karlguy joined #scheme
2018-10-28T18:13:02Z jcowan: Native implementations are better, though, less costly and less state
2018-10-28T18:14:39Z vyzo joined #scheme
2018-10-28T18:15:29Z jcowan: gaaah
2018-10-28T18:15:43Z jcowan: my portable SRFI 4 implementation almost works, but some of the tests are failing and I'm not sure what to do about it.
2018-10-28T18:16:22Z Riastradh: Fix them?
2018-10-28T18:16:26Z Riastradh helpful
2018-10-28T18:17:02Z jcowan: I don't know how
2018-10-28T18:17:20Z gwatt: "Doctor, it hurts when I do this!" "Then don't do that"
2018-10-28T18:17:28Z robotoad joined #scheme
2018-10-28T18:18:36Z jcowan: Excepting Racket and Kawa, all Schemes that I know of support only IEEE doubles as inexact reals.  So when I put an inexact number into an f32vector, what I get back is not what I put in.  e.g. I initialize an element with 1e38, and I get back a result smaller than that by 3.1971430730981536e+30.
2018-10-28T18:19:27Z Riastradh: Sounds like a rounding error in a format that gives you only 8 digits in base 10.
2018-10-28T18:20:23Z jcowan: So my tests, which depend on =, naturally fail.  Is there a numerical analyst in the house?  (cf. R5RS/R7RS 6.2.5)
2018-10-28T18:20:37Z Riastradh: What are you doing more specifically?
2018-10-28T18:21:19Z jcowan: I format the 1e8 as four bytes, pull it back out, and convert it to an inexact value using the code in SRFI 56.
2018-10-28T18:21:40Z jcowan: So I know I need a test that involves relative error, but I'm not sure how much error to tolerate.
2018-10-28T18:21:58Z Riastradh: Well...
2018-10-28T18:23:52Z Riastradh: The relative error of a correctly rounded operation in binary32 is bounded by 2^-24.
2018-10-28T18:24:30Z Riastradh: Which is approximately 5e-8.
2018-10-28T18:25:10Z Riastradh: So it is not surprising that the error from 1e38 is around 3e30 < 1e38*5e-8.
2018-10-28T18:25:42Z pierpal joined #scheme
2018-10-28T18:25:46Z Riastradh: What exactly are you trying to test?
2018-10-28T18:26:00Z Riastradh: Are you trying to test 64->32-bit rounding, by a circuitous route of an f32vector?
2018-10-28T18:26:16Z Riastradh: Or are you trying to test correct round-trip of a binary32 quantity through an f32vector?
2018-10-28T18:26:35Z jcowan: Yes, I think I see.  So given source s and result r, I should expect the result to be between s + s/2^24 and s - s/2^24?
2018-10-28T18:26:48Z jcowan: The latter, as far as can be done.
2018-10-28T18:26:52Z Riastradh: Exactly.
2018-10-28T18:26:57Z Riastradh: I mean, approximately.
2018-10-28T18:26:59Z Riastradh: Or, exactly approximately.
2018-10-28T18:27:14Z jcowan: The result will be exactly in that approximate range.
2018-10-28T18:27:15Z Riastradh: What I mean is: that is exactly the approximation that correctly rounded floating-point operations guarantee.
2018-10-28T18:27:24Z jcowan: Right!  Thanks.
2018-10-28T18:27:30Z Riastradh: s' = s*(1 + d) where |d| <= 2^-24
2018-10-28T18:27:53Z jcowan: okay, easily done
2018-10-28T18:27:54Z Riastradh: (Note the gap from 1 to the next floating-point number is 2^-23, which is twice the bound; both of these quantities are sometimes called `epsilon'.)
2018-10-28T18:30:35Z pierpal quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2018-10-28T18:35:45Z muelleme joined #scheme
2018-10-28T18:41:46Z muelleme quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2018-10-28T18:57:25Z Riastradh: Oh, right, hm.
2018-10-28T18:57:37Z Riastradh: Swift calls the gap `ulpOfOne'; the bound is 1/2 ulpOfOne.
2018-10-28T18:57:54Z Riastradh: I like that better.
2018-10-28T18:59:25Z ecraven: has any Scheme ever natively supported quaternions, as an extension to complex numberS?
2018-10-28T19:07:33Z johnjay quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2018-10-28T19:08:58Z muelleme joined #scheme
2018-10-28T19:09:25Z lritter quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2018-10-28T19:14:40Z pierpal joined #scheme
2018-10-28T19:15:36Z pierpal quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2018-10-28T19:16:30Z pjb quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2018-10-28T19:17:47Z pierpal joined #scheme
2018-10-28T19:20:47Z jcowan: ecraven: Not that I know of, and I think I would know.
2018-10-28T19:21:23Z jcowan: Riastradh: can you see the bug in this code?  It works fine for positive values but not for negative or zero ones.
2018-10-28T19:21:32Z jcowan: https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/bnaVq8ed/
2018-10-28T19:23:24Z jcowan: list-same? is a trivial helper that compares list elements for sameness.
2018-10-28T19:28:36Z nly quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2018-10-28T19:28:36Z pierpal quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2018-10-28T19:28:52Z nly joined #scheme
2018-10-28T19:29:48Z akira_ joined #scheme
2018-10-28T19:31:21Z Riastradh: jcowan: Relative error is not defined for zero, so that's not surprising.
2018-10-28T19:32:25Z ggole quit (Quit: ggole)
2018-10-28T19:32:51Z pierpal joined #scheme
2018-10-28T19:34:08Z pierpal quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2018-10-28T19:35:09Z Riastradh: jcowan: What is an example where it doesn't work?
2018-10-28T19:35:26Z akira_ quit (Quit: Leaving...)
2018-10-28T19:35:38Z jcowan: zero and both -1e6 (which not have any error) and -1e38 (my real test value)
2018-10-28T19:36:04Z Riastradh: What is what there?  What are the specific inputs you pass in?
2018-10-28T19:36:16Z jcowan: so zero will only work if the result is zero, but 0f0 = 0d0 exactly, so that is no problem
2018-10-28T19:36:44Z jcowan: For expected: -1e38, -1e6, 0.0, 1e6, 1e38
2018-10-28T19:37:56Z Riastradh: If expected = 0, relative error is not defined.  For writing tests sometimes I arbitrarily define it to be 0 if equal, 1 if not equal.
2018-10-28T19:38:13Z jcowan: for result: -9.999999403953552e+37, -1e6, 0.0, 1e6, 9.999999403953552e+37
2018-10-28T19:38:36Z jcowan: the value of abserr at 0.0 is 0.0, so the inequality should pass exactly at 0
2018-10-28T19:38:52Z Riastradh: (That makes it easy to write a table of test cases, and assert that the relative error of some computation from the expected result is bounded by 1e-15.)
2018-10-28T19:39:18Z jcowan: here the computation is passing expected into and out of an f32vector
2018-10-28T19:39:46Z jcowan: I'm beginning to wonder if f32vectors even make sense given no surrounding f32 arithmetic
2018-10-28T19:40:15Z jcowan: as u64/s64 do not make sense if you don't have integers of that size, only more so
2018-10-28T19:40:41Z Riastradh: Sure: it halves your memory consumption vs f64vectors.
2018-10-28T19:43:28Z jcowan: hmm, I need to use abs in the definition of abserr
2018-10-28T19:44:15Z jcowan: now failing only at 0
2018-10-28T19:44:46Z Riastradh: For negative inputs, you need to reverse the sense of the inequality, because abserr is negative.
2018-10-28T19:44:51Z Riastradh: ...yes
2018-10-28T19:45:11Z Riastradh: For 0, the inequality never holds because it's strict.
2018-10-28T19:45:17Z jcowan: right, so needs to be <=
2018-10-28T19:46:22Z jcowan: All tests pass!  The underlying code still doesn't handle denormal numbers correctly, I'll just document that.
2018-10-28T19:46:40Z Riastradh: s/denormal/subnormal/
2018-10-28T19:47:14Z Riastradh: (`Also, Dude, ``denormal'' is not the preferred nomenclature.')
2018-10-28T19:49:13Z abbe quit (Quit: “Everytime that we are together, it's always estatically palpitating!”)
2018-10-28T19:49:28Z abbe joined #scheme
2018-10-28T19:49:57Z robotoad quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2018-10-28T19:50:28Z Riastradh: jcowan: Here's a suggestion for naming epsilon: ulp-of-one for the smallest number e such that 1 + e =/= 1; error-bound for the largest relative error bound in correctly rounded operations, equal to half ulp-of-one.
2018-10-28T19:54:45Z jcowan: from what I can make out, in binary that is a distinction without a difference
2018-10-28T19:55:19Z klovett joined #scheme
2018-10-28T19:57:26Z Riastradh: The difference is a factor of 1/2?
2018-10-28T19:58:39Z klovett_ quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2018-10-28T20:01:18Z jcowan: no, I mean denormal vs. subnormal
2018-10-28T20:01:36Z jcowan: "denormal" is problematic for decimal fp, but not for binary fp
2018-10-28T20:01:38Z Riastradh: `Denormal' went out of fashion decades ago.
2018-10-28T20:01:58Z jcowan: yes, well, I stand with Quine on fashion in mathematics
2018-10-28T20:02:59Z Riastradh: Formally they are called `subnormal' in IEEE 754.  Also `subnormal' is a more intuitively meaningful term.
2018-10-28T20:04:08Z jcowan: e.g. "functions from K [a class] to the truth values" vs. "subclasses of K"
2018-10-28T20:05:10Z jcowan: likewise the definition of a group (vel sim.) as an ordered pair of a function and a set that satisfies the group laws, whereas the function is enough
2018-10-28T20:05:51Z jcowan: or, more significantly, a function as the relationship of value to argument rather than the more natural argument to value
2018-10-28T20:11:59Z jcowan: bah, more broken tests around NaN, but at least I know how to fix that
2018-10-28T20:17:13Z jcowan: all tests pass!
2018-10-28T20:17:47Z Riastradh: The Great Kahan even says `subnormal'.
2018-10-28T20:18:02Z robotoad joined #scheme
2018-10-28T20:19:01Z Riastradh: More seriously, I think `subnormal' is clearer (and a bit less scary-sounding) than `denormal'; in other words I agree with the choice made by IEEE 754 to call them that.
2018-10-28T20:28:36Z pjb joined #scheme
2018-10-28T21:10:14Z aroofo1 joined #scheme
2018-10-28T21:19:15Z emma_ is now known as emma
2018-10-28T21:23:18Z razzy quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2018-10-28T21:27:09Z TheGreekOwl joined #scheme
2018-10-28T21:28:50Z razzy joined #scheme
2018-10-28T21:44:01Z mejja joined #scheme
2018-10-28T21:49:05Z robotoad quit (Quit: robotoad)
2018-10-28T21:57:32Z catonano quit (Quit: catonano)
2018-10-28T21:57:41Z catonano joined #scheme
2018-10-28T22:19:15Z oni-on-ion joined #scheme
2018-10-28T22:19:17Z oni-on-ion: a
2018-10-28T22:24:07Z razzy` joined #scheme
2018-10-28T22:24:34Z razzy quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2018-10-28T22:28:53Z hugh_marera quit (Quit: hugh_marera)
2018-10-28T22:57:34Z mejja quit (Quit: mejja)
2018-10-28T22:58:10Z Zipheir: What's the quickest way to test if a string occurs in a list of strings? I've got (and (any (lambda (s) (string-contains s STRING)) STRINGS) #t) at the moment.
2018-10-28T22:58:33Z Zipheir: s/quickest/most concise/
2018-10-28T22:59:03Z rain2: I think that's it, just delete the (and --- #t)
2018-10-28T22:59:18Z rain2: what you could do though is define a curried versien of string-contains
2018-10-28T22:59:31Z rain2: then you can just partially apply it instead of making lambda
2018-10-28T22:59:45Z rain2: (define ((string-contains^ s) string) (string-contains s string))
2018-10-28T23:00:08Z rain2: (any (string-contains^ s) strings)
2018-10-28T23:00:22Z Zipheir: rain2: (and ... #t) is to return a boolean, since string-contains returns an index.
2018-10-28T23:00:27Z rain2: oh need to flip the args, but that's the idea
2018-10-28T23:00:31Z rain2: ah I didn't understand that trick
2018-10-28T23:01:05Z rain2: i wonder what would be a good name for that, turning an object into a bool
2018-10-28T23:01:18Z jcowan: `boolean`
2018-10-28T23:01:24Z Zipheir: Yeah, I'd curry string-contains if this was going to come up a lot. I'm just golfing here :)
2018-10-28T23:01:41Z jcowan: like exact and inexact
2018-10-28T23:01:57Z jcowan: or for that matter list, vector, string, etc.
2018-10-28T23:02:31Z jcowan: However, such a function would only be useful if you want something other than #f to be falsy; for string-contains it would be -1
2018-10-28T23:02:50Z Zipheir: jcowan: is 'boolean' in R7?
2018-10-28T23:03:01Z jcowan: No
2018-10-28T23:03:26Z jcowan: (define (boolean falsy? obj) (if (falsy? obj) #f #t))
2018-10-28T23:03:36Z Zipheir: Right.
2018-10-28T23:03:55Z jcowan: (or just (define boolean false obj) (if (eqv? obj false) #f #t))
2018-10-28T23:04:03Z rain2: why does it take 2 args?
2018-10-28T23:04:12Z jcowan: To specify what counts as false
2018-10-28T23:04:42Z jcowan: or curry it:
2018-10-28T23:05:13Z jcowan: (define (boolean false?) (lambda (x) (if (false? x) #f #t)))
2018-10-28T23:08:28Z Zipheir: jcowan: Did you decide on a name for value/#f procedures? What comes up occasionally is the need to convert the 'success' value of applying one of those procedures to #t, hence tricks like (and ... #t), etc.
2018-10-28T23:08:57Z jcowan: When do you need to do that?
2018-10-28T23:09:04Z jcowan: (convert to #t)
2018-10-28T23:09:32Z xkapastel quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity)
2018-10-28T23:10:44Z Zipheir: Say I want to grep a list of strings for a string with any and return a boolean, rather than an index into the matching string.
2018-10-28T23:11:46Z elderK joined #scheme
2018-10-28T23:12:16Z Zipheir: (I guess the idiomatic thing would be to find some useful truthy value to return, perhaps the list index of the matching string.)
2018-10-28T23:14:11Z lavaflow quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2018-10-28T23:15:07Z jcowan: Either will do
2018-10-28T23:15:14Z jcowan: I adopted `scheme`
2018-10-28T23:15:36Z lavaflow joined #scheme
2018-10-28T23:15:47Z Zipheir: For the 'or false' procedures?
2018-10-28T23:16:19Z jcowan: So (define (scheme->maybe x) (if x (just x) (nothing)) and (define (maybe->scheme x) (if (just? x) x #f))
2018-10-28T23:16:27Z jcowan: where (nothing) => #f
2018-10-28T23:17:02Z Zipheir: Cool.
2018-10-28T23:18:16Z jcowan: I think it's a Good Thing in a dynamically typed language to reuse #f as the singleton value of Nothing
2018-10-28T23:19:09Z Zipheir: e.g. (scheme->maybe (memv x xs)) would be a valid usage.
2018-10-28T23:22:08Z jcowan: yes
2018-10-28T23:22:28Z Zipheir: And (just x) returns some opaque value?
2018-10-28T23:22:43Z jcowan: So Maybe/Either is just three trivial ADTs and a number of one-liners
2018-10-28T23:23:12Z jcowan: and the only thing that remains in designing Monad/Monoid is figuring out which library functions should be supplied
2018-10-28T23:24:27Z jcowan: the usual sequence functions for sure, but beyond that I don't know yet
2018-10-28T23:25:28Z Zipheir: Exciting. Thanks for your hard work, as usual.
2018-10-28T23:29:05Z jcowan grins
2018-10-28T23:29:16Z acarrico quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2018-10-28T23:30:41Z siraben: o.O the maybe monad
2018-10-28T23:31:51Z Zipheir: siraben: o/ Coming soon to a Scheme near you!
2018-10-28T23:32:24Z acarrico joined #scheme
2018-10-28T23:32:45Z siraben: o/
2018-10-28T23:34:08Z krsiehl[m] joined #scheme
2018-10-28T23:48:27Z acarrico quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2018-10-28T23:51:04Z karlguy quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2018-10-29T00:01:18Z pie_ quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2018-10-29T00:04:03Z flerovite quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2018-10-29T00:04:22Z flerovite joined #scheme
2018-10-29T00:11:37Z klovett_ joined #scheme
2018-10-29T00:14:28Z klovett quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
2018-10-29T00:17:36Z robotoad joined #scheme
2018-10-29T00:33:49Z acarrico joined #scheme
2018-10-29T00:40:50Z karlguy joined #scheme
2018-10-29T00:53:00Z acarrico quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2018-10-29T01:03:33Z catonano quit (Quit: catonano)
2018-10-29T01:05:53Z robotoad quit (Max SendQ exceeded)
2018-10-29T01:08:04Z jcowan: Initially it'll be just Maybe; the monad object will arrive when Monad does
2018-10-29T01:10:11Z oni-on-ion: is there another common extension for scheme sources, aside from .scm ?
2018-10-29T01:13:10Z aeth: .ss
2018-10-29T01:13:27Z aeth: I also wouldn't be surprised if there was a .scheme
2018-10-29T01:14:35Z aeth: I also think some use .scm for regular Scheme files and something else for libraries. .sld?
2018-10-29T01:17:10Z aeth: And then obviously .rkt for Racket. (Racket used to use .ss when it was a Scheme iirc. Most Schemes use .scm)
2018-10-29T01:18:03Z robotoad joined #scheme
2018-10-29T01:21:28Z Zipheir quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2018-10-29T01:23:03Z oni-on-ion quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.9.1)
2018-10-29T01:26:18Z jcowan: Most Schemes require a particular extension for libraries, but are free and easy about extensions for any included files.  Guile and Chicken require libraries to end in .scm, Chibi in .sld, Racket in .rkt, most other R6RS systems in .sld or .<impl>.sld
2018-10-29T01:27:10Z jcowan: Fortunately, libraries named (foo bar) are stored in foo.bar.scm in Chicken and foo/bar.scm in Guile, so there is no collision
2018-10-29T01:27:23Z jcowan: s/.sld/.sls/2,3
2018-10-29T01:28:01Z oni-on-ion joined #scheme
2018-10-29T01:29:06Z edgar-rft: AFAIK the ss were the special forces of the german nazi army mainly responsible for the holoaust and lots of nazi war crimes
2018-10-29T01:34:19Z oni-on-ion: o_O
2018-10-29T01:34:48Z aeth: yes, .ss isn't a politically correct extension
2018-10-29T01:34:50Z oni-on-ion: ss sort of feels alright
2018-10-29T01:35:03Z aeth: .ss probably also conflicts with a dozen other things. Anything <= 3 probably does.
2018-10-29T01:35:43Z oni-on-ion: not much that i have come across. ".s" for asm sometimes
2018-10-29T01:36:26Z robotoad quit (Max SendQ exceeded)
2018-10-29T01:37:42Z edgar-rft: lets name all our header files .hh for Heil Hitler
2018-10-29T01:39:14Z oni-on-ion: .hpp for happy
2018-10-29T01:39:53Z edgar-rft: I agree that's a much better idea :-)
2018-10-29T01:41:19Z pierpal joined #scheme
2018-10-29T01:42:34Z oni-on-ion: ^_^
2018-10-29T01:43:17Z pierpal quit (Client Quit)
2018-10-29T01:43:36Z pierpal joined #scheme
2018-10-29T01:48:16Z lambda-11235 joined #scheme
2018-10-29T01:50:03Z robotoad joined #scheme
2018-10-29T01:54:15Z robotoad quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2018-10-29T01:55:58Z robotoad joined #scheme
2018-10-29T01:56:29Z ozzloy joined #scheme
2018-10-29T02:02:09Z InverseRhombus joined #scheme
2018-10-29T02:02:22Z robotoad quit (Quit: robotoad)
2018-10-29T02:35:44Z karlguy quit (Quit: Leaving)
2018-10-29T02:53:06Z badkins quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2018-10-29T02:53:51Z badkins joined #scheme
2018-10-29T03:00:06Z pjb quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2018-10-29T03:02:47Z eagleflo quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2018-10-29T03:03:39Z eagleflo joined #scheme
2018-10-29T03:19:16Z badkins quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2018-10-29T03:28:39Z aroofo1 quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2018-10-29T03:31:11Z aroofo1 joined #scheme
2018-10-29T03:42:48Z robotoad joined #scheme
2018-10-29T04:04:28Z xkapastel joined #scheme
2018-10-29T04:09:16Z keep_learning quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2018-10-29T04:30:56Z klovett_ quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2018-10-29T04:31:39Z klovett joined #scheme
2018-10-29T04:36:47Z ng0 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2018-10-29T04:37:17Z ng0 joined #scheme
2018-10-29T04:46:12Z klovett quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2018-10-29T05:33:36Z klovett joined #scheme
2018-10-29T05:37:58Z robotoad quit (Quit: robotoad)
2018-10-29T05:58:04Z klovett quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2018-10-29T05:58:24Z klovett joined #scheme
2018-10-29T06:01:12Z lritter joined #scheme
2018-10-29T06:03:58Z Fare joined #scheme
2018-10-29T06:04:15Z robotoad joined #scheme
2018-10-29T06:10:39Z lambda-11235 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2018-10-29T06:19:04Z robotoad quit (Quit: robotoad)
2018-10-29T06:22:02Z robotoad joined #scheme
2018-10-29T06:28:55Z razzy` quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2018-10-29T06:29:11Z razzy` joined #scheme
2018-10-29T06:29:27Z lritter quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2018-10-29T06:34:07Z lritter joined #scheme
2018-10-29T06:48:11Z DGASAU` quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 26.1))
2018-10-29T06:48:33Z DGASAU joined #scheme
2018-10-29T06:52:39Z oni-on-ion: i still dont fully understand what is the purpose of '#' in scheme syntax; i remember someone mentioned "a special reader syntax" such as #(1 2 3) but why for #t #f #:keyword ?
2018-10-29T06:53:09Z Zenton quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2018-10-29T07:04:21Z muelleme quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2018-10-29T07:06:50Z Inline quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2018-10-29T07:11:25Z marusich joined #scheme
2018-10-29T07:12:10Z aeth: oni-on-ion: you could think of it as a way to reserve something
2018-10-29T07:12:30Z aeth: oni-on-ion: foo-bar-baz might be used in someone's program as a variable but #foo-bar-baz shouldn't be.
2018-10-29T07:13:01Z oni-on-ion: but t and f? is there a way to avoid them, being super confident of no conflicts ?
2018-10-29T07:13:09Z oni-on-ion: what is the actual technical reason for all the #'ing
2018-10-29T07:14:01Z aeth: The alternative to #t is to use t, which Common Lisp does. This makes physics painful, but more importantly, makes math that's close to physics painful, since at least in physics "t" means time. In the math, "t" just means "t"
2018-10-29T07:14:11Z oni-on-ion: physics?
2018-10-29T07:14:14Z oni-on-ion: ah oh
2018-10-29T07:14:20Z oni-on-ion: eh
2018-10-29T07:14:25Z aeth: oni-on-ion: think about the thousands of formulae with t in it
2018-10-29T07:14:32Z aeth: in Scheme you can just... use t
2018-10-29T07:14:44Z oni-on-ion: i suppose..
2018-10-29T07:14:45Z aeth: in CL, t is true
2018-10-29T07:14:58Z aeth: It's kind of the opposite of what you normally get, where in lisp-1s there's lots of variable names you can't use
2018-10-29T07:15:05Z aeth: This time CL loses
2018-10-29T07:15:17Z oni-on-ion: scheme is lisp1? (i get them mixed up)
2018-10-29T07:15:43Z aeth: Yes, and Lisp-1 means you'll see stuff like (let ((lst (list 1 2 3))) ...)
2018-10-29T07:21:37Z ggole joined #scheme
2018-10-29T07:22:12Z aeth: but lisp-2 means you see stuff like (funcall f 1 2 3)
2018-10-29T07:27:24Z oni-on-ion: right. so 2=var+fun and 1=both. i can remember this (mnemonic?)
2018-10-29T07:28:21Z aeth: roughly
2018-10-29T07:28:26Z aeth: 2 is really a lie because there's more than 2
2018-10-29T07:28:40Z aeth: (lispers can't count?)
2018-10-29T07:29:00Z oni-on-ion: eh well. i imagine 1 being like a unity of the both
2018-10-29T07:29:13Z oni-on-ion: 2 = seperate, two of them. thats my mnemonic
2018-10-29T07:32:46Z robotoad quit (Quit: robotoad)
2018-10-29T07:44:33Z vyzo quit (Quit: Leaving.)
2018-10-29T07:45:32Z muelleme joined #scheme
2018-10-29T07:52:33Z muelleme quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2018-10-29T08:14:39Z razzy` quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2018-10-29T08:14:54Z razzy` joined #scheme
2018-10-29T08:24:17Z nly quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2018-10-29T08:35:00Z pierpal quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2018-10-29T08:38:14Z keep_learning_M joined #scheme
2018-10-29T08:39:21Z pierpal joined #scheme
2018-10-29T08:41:56Z nly joined #scheme
2018-10-29T08:47:41Z pierpal quit (Quit: Poof)
2018-10-29T08:48:02Z pierpal joined #scheme
2018-10-29T08:48:54Z muelleme joined #scheme
2018-10-29T08:51:17Z TheGreekOwl quit (Quit: I must go, my planet needs me.)
2018-10-29T08:51:44Z marusich quit (Quit: Leaving)
2018-10-29T08:53:01Z oni-on-ion: aeth: i realise too, that true and false constants are rarely used in Nice Code
2018-10-29T08:53:27Z muelleme quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2018-10-29T08:55:45Z bor0 joined #scheme
2018-10-29T08:56:22Z pierpal quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2018-10-29T09:01:55Z pierpal joined #scheme
2018-10-29T09:07:45Z keep_learning joined #scheme
2018-10-29T09:11:09Z keep_learning_M quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)
2018-10-29T09:35:39Z Zenton joined #scheme
2018-10-29T09:48:36Z bor0 quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)
2018-10-29T09:49:57Z bor0 joined #scheme
2018-10-29T09:49:57Z bor0 quit (Changing host)
2018-10-29T09:49:57Z bor0 joined #scheme
2018-10-29T09:52:52Z hive-mind quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2018-10-29T10:11:22Z erkin quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2018-10-29T10:12:47Z pie_ joined #scheme
2018-10-29T10:53:11Z pierpal quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2018-10-29T10:53:26Z pierpal joined #scheme
2018-10-29T10:54:34Z keep_learning_M joined #scheme
2018-10-29T11:00:18Z Fare quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
2018-10-29T11:03:30Z daviid quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2018-10-29T11:03:54Z xkapastel quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity)
2018-10-29T11:07:43Z razzy` quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 26.1))
2018-10-29T11:08:13Z razzy joined #scheme
2018-10-29T11:09:01Z redeemed joined #scheme
2018-10-29T11:15:16Z cemerick quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2018-10-29T11:15:42Z cemerick joined #scheme
2018-10-29T11:19:27Z clog quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2018-10-29T11:20:43Z bor0 quit (Quit: Leaving)
2018-10-29T11:21:03Z keep_learning_M quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)
2018-10-29T11:31:32Z elderK quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity)
2018-10-29T11:33:04Z razzy quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2018-10-29T11:40:47Z keep_learning_M joined #scheme
2018-10-29T11:41:20Z hive-mind joined #scheme
2018-10-29T11:43:52Z acarrico joined #scheme
2018-10-29T11:43:56Z razzy joined #scheme
2018-10-29T11:50:34Z rain2: it's interesting the claim that the only use of multi-shot continuations (as opposed to single shot) is nondeterminism like prolog search
2018-10-29T11:50:40Z rain2: what about generators?
2018-10-29T11:50:49Z rain2: isn't that a use of multishot continuations too
2018-10-29T11:50:58Z rain2: maybe they're just considered the same thing
2018-10-29T11:51:46Z catonano joined #scheme
2018-10-29T12:01:05Z lritter quit (Quit: Leaving)
2018-10-29T12:22:27Z greaser|q quit (Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.)
2018-10-29T12:23:43Z greaser|q joined #scheme
2018-10-29T12:24:46Z clog joined #scheme
2018-10-29T12:44:40Z pierpal quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2018-10-29T12:53:09Z DGASAU quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2018-10-29T13:04:55Z foof` quit (Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs))
2018-10-29T13:05:12Z foof joined #scheme
2018-10-29T13:05:29Z foof: Riastradh: good question...
2018-10-29T13:10:09Z foof: (repl 'escape: #\%)
2018-10-29T13:10:34Z foof: chibi just uses ordinary symbols for keywords
2018-10-29T13:19:04Z xkapastel joined #scheme
2018-10-29T13:52:41Z DGASAU joined #scheme
2018-10-29T14:19:38Z rain2: I still don't properly understand how the multiple prompt part of continuations comes into play
2018-10-29T14:19:49Z rain2: it seems like it lets you make shift/reset pairs that match up
2018-10-29T14:20:16Z rain2: but what if they overlap, like  (reset a ... (reset b ... (shift a ... (shift b ...
2018-10-29T14:21:02Z rain2: do you basically segment the stack into 4 parts  ABCD and the first shift gets AB and the second gets BC ?
2018-10-29T14:21:43Z rain2: I wonder what the sharing of D implies
2018-10-29T14:21:45Z rain2: B*
2018-10-29T14:32:59Z badkins joined #scheme
2018-10-29T14:48:01Z badkins_ joined #scheme
2018-10-29T14:50:23Z badkins quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
2018-10-29T14:53:15Z robotoad joined #scheme
2018-10-29T15:00:33Z jcowan quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity)
2018-10-29T15:09:25Z robotoad quit (Quit: robotoad)
2018-10-29T15:12:15Z smazga joined #scheme
2018-10-29T15:14:34Z badkins_ is now known as badkins
2018-10-29T15:16:21Z proksi[m] quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
2018-10-29T15:16:42Z carc quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2018-10-29T15:18:23Z carc joined #scheme
2018-10-29T15:19:02Z proksi[m] joined #scheme
2018-10-29T15:36:10Z badkins quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2018-10-29T15:36:16Z emar quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.2)
2018-10-29T15:45:09Z emar joined #scheme
2018-10-29T15:45:30Z nly quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2018-10-29T15:46:56Z nly joined #scheme
2018-10-29T15:55:02Z alezost joined #scheme
2018-10-29T16:11:45Z Guest13389 quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2018-10-29T16:11:55Z aeth: oni-on-ion: False is used all the time. True's rare because everything except false is true.
2018-10-29T16:12:13Z nly quit (Excess Flood)
2018-10-29T16:12:23Z oni-on-ion: but (not x)
2018-10-29T16:12:27Z nly joined #scheme
2018-10-29T16:12:43Z oni-on-ion: i think it can be avoided aside from setting a value directly
2018-10-29T16:12:47Z nly quit (Excess Flood)
2018-10-29T16:14:45Z aeth: Everything *can* be avoided except for nand.
2018-10-29T16:14:55Z catonano quit (Quit: catonano)
2018-10-29T16:15:59Z benbit joined #scheme
2018-10-29T16:16:06Z nly joined #scheme
2018-10-29T16:16:47Z nly quit (Client Quit)
2018-10-29T16:16:50Z jcowan joined #scheme
2018-10-29T16:16:56Z nly joined #scheme
2018-10-29T16:17:55Z oni-on-ion: hmm you make it sound impractical
2018-10-29T16:18:14Z ggole: True is pretty common when writing predicates
2018-10-29T16:19:03Z oni-on-ion: hmm. ok i feel better now. so in special cases i will see #t #f
2018-10-29T16:19:42Z aeth: You could use (if foo #t #f) or (not (not foo)) when you just want to return #t or #f
2018-10-29T16:19:49Z aeth: They probaly compile to the same thing
2018-10-29T16:19:50Z oni-on-ion: i know it may be wierd for me to complain about this specific thing (and #:keyword) but im about to dive right in to porting stuff and writing a bunch of stuff and i know that clarifying a couple things will really smoothen the progress
2018-10-29T16:19:58Z oni-on-ion: kk
2018-10-29T16:20:15Z aeth: I would personally rather see (if foo #t #f) than (not (not foo))
2018-10-29T16:20:58Z redeemed quit (Quit: q)
2018-10-29T16:21:14Z rain2: I think you shoudl define a new function for it
2018-10-29T16:21:15Z oni-on-ion: isnt there a "reduce to t/f" ? ie. (define (ifp n) (if (or (< n 0) (> n 0)) #t #f))
2018-10-29T16:21:35Z rain2: but you don't need to actually use it
2018-10-29T16:21:44Z oni-on-ion: rain2: heh yeah, i'm thinking that too. it will simplify branching and that. because scheme already reduces a lot of those, even when compare with CL.
2018-10-29T16:23:49Z aeth: oni-on-ion: try zero?
2018-10-29T16:23:51Z ggole: (not (zero? ...))?
2018-10-29T16:23:57Z aeth: yeah
2018-10-29T16:25:49Z Guest13389 joined #scheme
2018-10-29T16:32:29Z Fare joined #scheme
2018-10-29T16:35:40Z oni-on-ion: HA! emacs geiser! tells me all the extensions
2018-10-29T16:35:43Z oni-on-ion clears throat
2018-10-29T16:37:24Z oni-on-ion: scm is guile, ss and rkt is racket, {scm,release-info,meta,setup} for chicken, ss and def for chez, scm and pkg for mit, scm and sld for chibi.       yeah!
2018-10-29T16:38:10Z oni-on-ion: M-x customize-group geiser-implementation
2018-10-29T16:39:12Z alezost quit (Quit: I live in GuixSD <http://www.gnu.org/s/guix> and Emacs <http://www.gnu.org/s/emacs>)
2018-10-29T16:41:38Z zachk joined #scheme
2018-10-29T16:42:20Z zachk quit (Changing host)
2018-10-29T16:42:20Z zachk joined #scheme
2018-10-29T16:42:55Z lritter joined #scheme
2018-10-29T16:44:15Z badkins joined #scheme
2018-10-29T16:45:04Z Zaab1t joined #scheme
2018-10-29T16:47:51Z klovett quit
2018-10-29T17:03:20Z Inline joined #scheme
2018-10-29T17:16:49Z XTL joined #scheme
2018-10-29T17:19:38Z nly quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2018-10-29T17:19:58Z muelleme joined #scheme
2018-10-29T17:24:28Z lyf[kde] joined #scheme
2018-10-29T17:24:29Z lyf[kde] quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2018-10-29T17:25:00Z lyf[kde] joined #scheme
2018-10-29T17:25:05Z lyf[kde] quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2018-10-29T17:25:07Z muelleme quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2018-10-29T17:26:46Z Fare quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
2018-10-29T17:28:05Z klovett joined #scheme
2018-10-29T17:52:19Z muelleme joined #scheme
2018-10-29T18:04:34Z muelleme quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2018-10-29T18:05:40Z pjb joined #scheme
2018-10-29T18:08:11Z catonano joined #scheme
2018-10-29T18:16:16Z jcowan: As of yesterday, MIT Scheme is R7RS!
2018-10-29T18:18:38Z oni-on-ion: nice !
2018-10-29T18:19:10Z Zipheir joined #scheme
2018-10-29T18:25:12Z pjb: Great!
2018-10-29T18:26:45Z jcowan: also Unicode and an FFI and a bunch of other things
2018-10-29T18:27:01Z oni-on-ion: why both mit scheme and guile scheme? afaik guile was created specifically to replace the elisp engine (not elisp itself) from emacs
2018-10-29T18:27:15Z jcowan: https://www.gnu.org/software/mit-scheme/release.html
2018-10-29T18:27:57Z oni-on-ion: > no windows support
2018-10-29T18:27:58Z jcowan: They have totally independent origins.  Guile was created as an extension language for GNU software (not Emacs specifically).  MIT Scheme is the oldest Scheme still in use.
2018-10-29T18:28:01Z jcowan: Alas, yes
2018-10-29T18:28:24Z jcowan: When I get back to Windows I'll probably build it under Cygwin or LoW.
2018-10-29T18:29:33Z oni-on-ion: jcowan: hmm, half and half -- guile was also created to bring the "extensive power" of emacs into other GNU software
2018-10-29T18:29:42Z Riastradh: oni-on-ion: patches welcome
2018-10-29T18:29:56Z oni-on-ion: i read i believe in the manual about how it was created with the aims at some day replacing the related guts of emacs
2018-10-29T18:30:03Z oni-on-ion: Riastradh: Heh.
2018-10-29T18:30:28Z oni-on-ion: also guile 3.0 on the way to release +)
2018-10-29T18:30:39Z deuill: Maybe Edwin has a better chance of being compatible to Emacs than Guile-Emacs has of taking off
2018-10-29T18:31:28Z deuill: Compatible, meaning able to run Elisp
2018-10-29T18:31:29Z oni-on-ion: is there 'portable' ffi stuff for scheme, ala CFFI for CL ?
2018-10-29T18:31:38Z oni-on-ion: deuill: is edwin guile ?
2018-10-29T18:32:11Z turbofail: no
2018-10-29T18:32:17Z Zipheir: oni-on-ion: Portable FFI? Surely you jest.
2018-10-29T18:32:18Z deuill: Edwin is an Emacs-like editor included in the MIT Scheme distribution
2018-10-29T18:32:33Z oni-on-ion: Zipheir: ehh well, to the extent of CFFI requiring implementation specific stuf f
2018-10-29T18:32:53Z deuill: And is written in Scheme, I think in its entirety
2018-10-29T18:33:03Z oni-on-ion: ahh. there is also guile emacs, deuill : https://www.emacswiki.org/emacs/GuileEmacs   as guile 3.0 is fully Elisp compatible now.
2018-10-29T18:33:48Z gwatt: oni-on-ion: well, there's pffi: https://github.com/ktakashi/r6rs-pffi
2018-10-29T18:34:10Z deuill: I've been looking at getting Guile-Emacs up to date with later versions of Guile, and Emacs `master`, but there's a long road
2018-10-29T18:35:01Z deuill: The Emacs parts are based on older versions of Guile, and are long out of date
2018-10-29T18:36:00Z deuill: Doesn't help to be a complete n00b when it comes to both Emacs and Guile internals...
2018-10-29T18:36:43Z oni-on-ion: deuill: hmm i thought it was still active ?
2018-10-29T18:37:06Z oni-on-ion: i think it would be a better approach to write emacs from scratch to get all the elisp going
2018-10-29T18:37:22Z deuill: Not that I know of, last commits I've seen were from 2015. Maybe there's a parallel effort though
2018-10-29T18:37:33Z Zenton quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
2018-10-29T18:38:14Z amz3 quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.9.1)
2018-10-29T18:38:33Z lritter quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2018-10-29T18:38:56Z oni-on-ion: hmm, https://www.reddit.com/r/emacs/comments/4zttlt/guileemacs_status/  <-- says march 2016
2018-10-29T18:38:56Z jcowan: The only coherent objections to Guile-Emacs that I have heard are (a) that current Emacs users will gain little or nothing, and (b) that it will fork the community into those who use Elisp and those who use Scheme, and make maintenance more difficult over the long term
2018-10-29T18:39:16Z oni-on-ion: hmm B is a real thing for sure.
2018-10-29T18:41:41Z jcowan: most of the objections in that thread are either dogmatic or obsolete
2018-10-29T18:42:02Z oni-on-ion: ah didnt read all. too many unanswered things
2018-10-29T18:42:17Z jcowan: if guile-elisp were much more performant than it is, then (a) might go away, but (b) remains, another version of the Curse of Lisp
2018-10-29T18:42:35Z deuill: Stallman's all for it though
2018-10-29T18:42:37Z oni-on-ion: guile got a lot of speed recently, i think this affects elisp side as well
2018-10-29T18:42:59Z jcowan: Good
2018-10-29T18:43:06Z jcowan: Stallman has always been a Scheme fan
2018-10-29T18:43:15Z oni-on-ion: guile has the "language mode" thing like racket does, i think that people writing emacs extensions in anything could be alright, if they can be essentially translated to anything else if run under the same VM
2018-10-29T18:43:17Z jcowan: if only he would propagandize for it more
2018-10-29T18:45:22Z jcowan: Yes, but (b) isn't about writing code in Scheme, it's about maintaining code in multiple languages.  Like it or not, Emacs is a package deal, and until now there has only been C (which most people don't hack) and Elisp (which many people do hack).  Allowing other languages means documenting how Emacs objects are exposed, etc. etc. even to release it, and then finding maintainers who know Scheme
2018-10-29T18:46:01Z deuill: In a perhaps twisted way, Elisp has probably been the introduction to Lisp and Scheme for a lot of people
2018-10-29T18:46:16Z gwatt: I'm not sure stallman proselytizing scheme would really help
2018-10-29T18:46:17Z jcowan: Vim already has this problem, but vim is not nearly so dependent on plugins as Emacs is on Elisp code files
2018-10-29T18:46:28Z jcowan: Mmm, perhaps not, but he does have a bully pulpit
2018-10-29T18:46:32Z oni-on-ion: jcowan: nahh, dont think the core guts need to really be exposed; as evidenced by full elisp compatibility in guile VM already
2018-10-29T18:47:09Z oni-on-ion: weechat can be an example. it supports plugins from basically any language
2018-10-29T18:47:31Z oni-on-ion: however that elisp changes little does help maintenance a lot...
2018-10-29T18:47:52Z jcowan: Then elisp-Scheme i14y needs to be explained then; currently very little is.
2018-10-29T18:48:17Z jcowan: So does vim, but both use plugins at arm's length.  Not so for Emacs
2018-10-29T18:50:52Z ineiros quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2018-10-29T18:51:21Z oni-on-ion: hm yeah
2018-10-29T18:51:36Z oni-on-ion: i like elisp enough to just use that part of guile in the raw =)
2018-10-29T18:51:40Z tolja_ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2018-10-29T18:51:45Z XTL quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2018-10-29T18:51:55Z pjb: Not on macOS Mojave: Inconsistency detected. make: *** [Makefile:159: lib/runtime.com] Error 1
2018-10-29T18:51:55Z pjb:  
2018-10-29T18:52:03Z oni-on-ion runs from the awful pervasive :::colons:::
2018-10-29T18:57:50Z XTL joined #scheme
2018-10-29T18:57:52Z ineiros joined #scheme
2018-10-29T18:57:54Z tolja joined #scheme
2018-10-29T19:01:40Z Riastradh: pjb: Got a full log?
2018-10-29T19:01:41Z daviid joined #scheme
2018-10-29T19:02:05Z daviid is now known as Guest29881
2018-10-29T19:02:42Z Guest29881 is now known as daviid
2018-10-29T19:09:29Z pjb: Riastradh: ftp://ftp.informatimago.com/users/pjb/clipboard/mit-scheme-git.log.gz
2018-10-29T19:10:47Z pjb: and: ftp://ftp.informatimago.com/users/pjb/clipboard/mit-scheme-git-logs.tar.bz2
2018-10-29T19:12:36Z pjb: with the command: ./Setup.sh && ./configure --disable-dependency-tracking --prefix=/urs/local && make && make install
2018-10-29T19:12:58Z pjb: I tried first without --disable-dependency-tracking but an error message told me to use it…
2018-10-29T19:13:27Z badkins quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2018-10-29T19:15:11Z ggole quit (Quit: ggole)
2018-10-29T19:16:49Z Riastradh: pjb: It looks like the MIT Scheme you already have installed is the portable C version, not the native amd64 version, so if you wnat to use it to build a new one you'll need to do a cross-build.
2018-10-29T19:17:45Z Riastradh: (The portable C build is not currently working in 10.1, according to Chris.  I'm also not sure a cross-build from it will work.)
2018-10-29T19:17:57Z pjb: It's a x86(64) from MacPorts
2018-10-29T19:18:04Z pjb: MIT/GNU Scheme microcode 15.3  Release 9.2 || Microcode 15.3 || Runtime 15.7 || SF 4.41 || LIAR/C 4.118 || Edwin 3.116
2018-10-29T19:18:04Z pjb:  
2018-10-29T19:18:11Z Riastradh: LIAR/C 4.118
2018-10-29T19:18:18Z Riastradh: That's the critical part.  If it said LIAR/x86-64, then it would be fine.
2018-10-29T19:18:45Z pjb: Can one bootstrap the git sources  without mit-scheme?
2018-10-29T19:18:47Z Riastradh: (Why macports uses the LIAR/C, I don't know.)
2018-10-29T19:18:48Z Riastradh: No.
2018-10-29T19:19:02Z pjb: Ok, so I'll have to download a good binary first.
2018-10-29T19:19:22Z Riastradh: (If you consider this to be a problem -- well, I agree, but it's a lot of work to fix.)
2018-10-29T19:19:39Z pjb: It's understandable.
2018-10-29T19:22:39Z Riastradh: Any of the binaries -- `unix binary', `macOS binary', `portable SVM' -- should work on macOS, I expect.
2018-10-29T19:24:00Z nly joined #scheme
2018-10-29T19:24:41Z mejja joined #scheme
2018-10-29T19:24:57Z Riastradh: Uh oh, here's mejja to tell me what else is wrong with 10.1.
2018-10-29T19:29:30Z mejja: Bad version number?
2018-10-29T19:29:41Z Riastradh: ?
2018-10-29T19:29:59Z mejja: .1 in floating point ;-)
2018-10-29T19:30:22Z Riastradh: I don't follow?
2018-10-29T19:31:56Z mejja: 101/10 :-)
2018-10-29T19:32:14Z jao joined #scheme
2018-10-29T19:32:28Z Riastradh: What is this, two-digit decimal floating-point?  We don't serve that kind here; we only do binary64.
2018-10-29T19:34:55Z mejja: the changelog is 206882 lines long
2018-10-29T19:36:57Z Labu quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.0.1)
2018-10-29T19:37:25Z Riastradh: Well it's just the complete output of git log, apparently...
2018-10-29T19:40:40Z jcowan: Boo, that is no changelog at all.
2018-10-29T19:41:22Z Riastradh: I dunno, what's the point of a manually updated change log that has all the same information that would go in the commit message anyway?  There's already release notes summarizing the user-visible changes.
2018-10-29T19:44:15Z Zipheir: The idea is probably to provide the commit log to people who downloaded a tarball.
2018-10-29T19:44:34Z Riastradh: I'm not really sure what the point is.  Want the commit history, get the repository.
2018-10-29T19:44:57Z Zipheir: Exactly, changelogs are a pre-ubiquitous-VCS idea anyway.
2018-10-29T19:46:42Z Zipheir: Although traditionally changelogs are better written and less lie-packed than the average Git log output...
2018-10-29T19:46:49Z jcowan: just so
2018-10-29T19:47:13Z sakalli__ joined #scheme
2018-10-29T19:47:49Z ecraven: Zipheir: just generate the commit log automatically from git history, in that case :P
2018-10-29T19:48:23Z ecraven: one project I know has non-ideal commit messages, but the changelog is a nice summary, which is specially written. it gives a better and faster overview than the git log
2018-10-29T19:50:37Z Zipheir: That's a good point.
2018-10-29T19:52:25Z Riastradh: Maybe they should just write better commit messages.
2018-10-29T19:52:34Z Zipheir: Well, obviously.
2018-10-29T19:52:43Z ecraven: indeed, but that's not always trivial with many different contributors
2018-10-29T19:52:47Z Riastradh: ecraven: But is the changelog more detailed than release notes?
2018-10-29T19:52:59Z ecraven: also, commit history is sometimes messier than ideal
2018-10-29T19:53:00Z Riastradh: And is that additional level of detail, short of the actual commits, worth anything?
2018-10-29T19:53:10Z ecraven: Riastradh: there are no release notes, I think ;)
2018-10-29T19:53:13Z Zipheir: But writing a neat und tidy changelog is still better than rewriting history to be neat und tidy, and that seems to be the popular (if horrible) solution.
2018-10-29T19:53:24Z ecraven: if there are proper release notes, then I don't see much use in an additional changelog
2018-10-29T19:53:31Z Riastradh: ecraven: Right.  That's the situation here.
2018-10-29T20:01:05Z TheGreekOwl joined #scheme
2018-10-29T20:01:33Z jcowan: A changelog IME is more detailed than release notes, which generally only explain new (or removed) user-visible features.
2018-10-29T20:02:23Z jcowan: I am working on the ballots for the Tangerine Edition and the straw ballot for the Orange Edition (which is intended to tell me if some planned SRFI is not worth implementing because nobody cares).
2018-10-29T20:02:33Z jcowan: s/nobody/approximately &
2018-10-29T20:04:06Z Riastradh: Sure, but what's the point of the level of detail between commit log and release notes?
2018-10-29T20:06:45Z Labu joined #scheme
2018-10-29T20:07:14Z jcowan: More understanding and (as you say) fewer lies
2018-10-29T20:07:16Z mejja: https://www.gnu.org/prep/standards/html_node/Change-Logs.html#Change-Logs
2018-10-29T20:08:18Z Riastradh: mejja: Looks like a commit message style guide to me.
2018-10-29T20:19:03Z mejja: It's the best release ever. Lots of cool features. I particularly like the new macro expander.
2018-10-29T20:27:52Z rain2: how is the new macro expander done?
2018-10-29T20:29:01Z Zenton joined #scheme
2018-10-29T20:39:04Z nly quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2018-10-29T20:40:15Z nly joined #scheme
2018-10-29T20:47:41Z Zaab1t quit (Quit: bye bye friends)
2018-10-29T20:53:06Z catonano quit (Quit: catonano)
2018-10-29T20:53:35Z catonano joined #scheme
2018-10-29T21:03:44Z aeth: Someone should write a nanoscheme that only provides the absolute minimum to derive the rest of r7rs-small. Wouldn't be efficient, of course. e.g. (not foo) would be (nand foo foo) so nanoscheme would only have nand, not not/and/or and be 3x smaller there.
2018-10-29T21:04:22Z mejja: aeth, https://github.com/mnieper/rapid-scheme
2018-10-29T21:04:22Z aeth: i.e. It would be the smallest amount of things, not necessarily in r7rs-small, capable of implementing r7rs-small.
2018-10-29T21:06:00Z gnomon: aeth, are you describing prescheme, or unlambda?
2018-10-29T21:06:35Z aeth: gnomon: that's the fun thing. it would be incredibly esoteric and useless
2018-10-29T21:07:04Z mejja: we already have CL
2018-10-29T21:07:09Z aeth: e.g. Why have both conses and vectors? Just make conses from vectors.
2018-10-29T21:07:10Z Riastradh: I wrote a nanscheme.  That's kinda close.
2018-10-29T21:07:16Z Riastradh: Only off by one letter.
2018-10-29T21:07:37Z aeth: represent (cons 1 2) with (vector :cons 1 2) and (vector 1 2) with (vector :vector 1 2)
2018-10-29T21:08:28Z aeth: Would you want to use that? No, it wastes memory. Would it be more minimal to implement everything (string, cons, bytevector, vector) with a vector? Yes.
2018-10-29T21:09:58Z aeth: mejja: I don't mean r7rs-in-Scheme, I mean the minimum set of a Scheme-like language required to implement r7rs, which would probably *not* itself be Scheme (e.g. it would only have nand instead of not/and/or)
2018-10-29T21:10:09Z gnomon: Riastradh, that's also only one letter away from being a nyanscheme
2018-10-29T21:10:13Z gnomon: flying through space
2018-10-29T21:10:16Z gnomon: trailing a rainbow
2018-10-29T21:10:46Z aeth: (And, in fact, perhaps nand could be implemented through something else and then used to implement not/and/or)
2018-10-29T21:10:55Z Riastradh: gnomon: I was going to use a piece of fresh bread as the nanscheme mascot, back when I was thinking about these things.  I think I was not aware of nyancat at the time.
2018-10-29T21:13:57Z jcowan: https://bitbucket.org/cowan/r7rs-wg1-infra/src/default/BottomScheme.md is a somewhat similar idea, though not as restrictive
2018-10-29T21:14:11Z klovett quit
2018-10-29T21:14:52Z Zipheir: mejja: zing!
2018-10-29T21:15:43Z jcowan: in truth, everything can be done with fxnand
2018-10-29T21:16:01Z gnomon: Riastradh, mmmmmmmbread
2018-10-29T21:21:24Z blt- quit (Quit: ZNC 1.7.1 - https://znc.in)
2018-10-29T21:23:46Z blt joined #scheme
2018-10-29T21:23:46Z blt quit (Changing host)
2018-10-29T21:23:46Z blt joined #scheme
2018-10-29T21:31:30Z blt quit (Quit: ZNC 1.7.1 - https://znc.in)
2018-10-29T21:32:39Z blt joined #scheme
2018-10-29T21:32:39Z blt quit (Changing host)
2018-10-29T21:32:39Z blt joined #scheme
2018-10-29T21:35:47Z muelleme joined #scheme
2018-10-29T21:44:57Z DGASAU` joined #scheme
2018-10-29T21:45:16Z DGASAU quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2018-10-29T21:50:22Z brettgilio joined #scheme
2018-10-29T21:53:27Z rain2: jcowan: I really really like this idea
2018-10-29T21:54:16Z rain2: specing subsets of scheme could be really useful for people doing practice projects
2018-10-29T22:04:13Z brettgilio quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2018-10-29T22:04:25Z TheGreekOwl quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2018-10-29T22:05:16Z TheGreekOwl joined #scheme
2018-10-29T22:06:37Z vyzo joined #scheme
2018-10-29T22:08:05Z jcowan: thanks
2018-10-29T22:08:50Z jcowan: I designed the Bottom Scheme language so programs could be trivially compiled to C but would run in any R7RS Scheme as well
2018-10-29T22:08:50Z Fare joined #scheme
2018-10-29T22:09:33Z DGASAU`` joined #scheme
2018-10-29T22:10:13Z DGASAU` quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
2018-10-29T22:12:24Z rain2: we could spec out a few different minimal subsets, like with/without strings, call/cc, inner define, syntax-rules things like that
2018-10-29T22:16:39Z flynn16 joined #scheme
2018-10-29T22:18:29Z klovett joined #scheme
2018-10-29T22:19:43Z muelleme quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
2018-10-29T22:20:15Z flynn16: Regarding GNU Guile, are their bytecode files architecture-independent?
2018-10-29T22:27:48Z catonano quit (Quit: catonano)
2018-10-29T22:29:52Z oni-on-ion: which guile? oh the GNU one. i think so. https://www.gnu.org/software/guile/manual/html_node/Why-a-VM_003f.html
2018-10-29T22:30:54Z oni-on-ion: more details:  https://www.gnu.org/software/guile/manual/html_node/Object-File-Format.html#Object-File-Format
2018-10-29T22:31:28Z oni-on-ion: https://www.gnu.org/software/guile/manual/html_node/Compiling-to-the-Virtual-Machine.html#Compiling-to-the-Virtual-Machine
2018-10-29T22:31:29Z rudybot: http://teensy.info/6tH4izRKr2
2018-10-29T22:36:41Z Ober: are there other Guile schemes?
2018-10-29T22:37:09Z badkins joined #scheme
2018-10-29T22:39:49Z oni-on-ion: awful sarcasm sorry. sometimes i have to add "scheme" into the search query though
2018-10-29T22:42:11Z Zipheir: Don't stop there, "gnu guile scheme lisp language computer machine"
2018-10-29T22:44:07Z Fare quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2018-10-29T23:02:56Z nly quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2018-10-29T23:12:28Z DGASAU`` quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2018-10-29T23:12:54Z DGASAU`` joined #scheme
2018-10-29T23:13:55Z nly joined #scheme
2018-10-29T23:19:01Z daviid` joined #scheme
2018-10-29T23:20:30Z daviid quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2018-10-29T23:20:50Z smazga quit (Quit: leaving)
2018-10-29T23:23:48Z daviid` quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2018-10-29T23:24:47Z acarrico quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2018-10-29T23:27:05Z xkapastel: https://twitter.com/mietek/status/759138216138211332
2018-10-29T23:28:08Z xkapastel: Riastradh: thought you might appreciate this :)
2018-10-29T23:28:22Z flynn16: How Ubuntu/Debian maintainers package Guile bytecode is really inconsistent. `guile-2.2-libs` (Ubuntu 18.04) has bytecode files under /usr/lib/x86_64-linux-gnu (it is for platform dependent files)
2018-10-29T23:29:05Z flynn16: whereas `guile-json` has bytecode files in /usr/share (directory for platform independent files)
2018-10-29T23:30:10Z DGASAU`` quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 26.1))
2018-10-29T23:30:18Z flynn16: whereas `guile-cairo` does not provide any precompiled bytecode at all
2018-10-29T23:30:39Z DGASAU joined #scheme
2018-10-29T23:32:42Z flynn16: Well I can download the debs for a variety of platforms and compare them
2018-10-29T23:39:59Z flynn16 quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.2)
2018-10-29T23:41:28Z daviid joined #scheme
2018-10-29T23:47:07Z nly quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2018-10-29T23:48:29Z badkins quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2018-10-29T23:50:06Z badkins joined #scheme
2018-10-29T23:58:41Z nly joined #scheme
2018-10-30T00:03:00Z keep_learning_M quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)
2018-10-30T00:10:17Z TheGreekOwl quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
2018-10-30T00:11:23Z mejja quit (Quit: mejja)
2018-10-30T00:47:08Z cmatei quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2018-10-30T00:49:20Z aeth: rain2: A Scheme subset without call/cc could be very useful, even though it's one of the main original points of Scheme.
2018-10-30T00:50:02Z aeth: (call/cc, not not having call/cc)
2018-10-30T00:50:12Z aeth: Sounds pretty esay to subset, though
2018-10-30T00:51:32Z aeth: Also subsets sound very easy to do portably, since call/cc is part of (scheme base) so you would just call it something else.
2018-10-30T00:52:03Z aeth: Perhaps call it (scheme discontinuous)?
2018-10-30T00:53:03Z Fare joined #scheme
2018-10-30T00:54:00Z badkins quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2018-10-30T00:58:47Z iskander quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
2018-10-30T01:02:22Z keep_learning_M joined #scheme
2018-10-30T01:03:06Z jcowan: (import (except (scheme-base) call-with-current-continuation call/cc))
2018-10-30T01:04:36Z jcowan: I have realized that CL `defpackage` is equivalent to R7RS modules with the exception that it can't rename identifiers on either import or export, because the name of a symbol is independent of the package(s) it is in.
2018-10-30T01:06:27Z badkins joined #scheme
2018-10-30T01:13:11Z erkin joined #scheme
2018-10-30T01:21:04Z pie_ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2018-10-30T01:21:24Z zachk quit (Quit: Leaving)
2018-10-30T01:38:23Z keep_learning_M quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)
2018-10-30T01:48:36Z keep_learning_M joined #scheme
2018-10-30T01:53:06Z DGASAU quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
2018-10-30T02:09:56Z acarrico joined #scheme
2018-10-30T02:30:14Z aroofo1 left #scheme
2018-10-30T02:32:33Z DGASAU joined #scheme
2018-10-30T02:47:50Z keep_learning_M quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)
2018-10-30T02:51:34Z keep_learning_M joined #scheme
2018-10-30T02:54:02Z keep_learning_M quit (Client Quit)
2018-10-30T02:55:04Z keep_learning_M joined #scheme
2018-10-30T02:57:54Z acarrico quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2018-10-30T03:16:57Z mrm: jcowan: I like the idea of Bottom Scheme, but I think omitting macros (even just syntax-rules) is kind of pointlessly restrictive.
2018-10-30T03:17:54Z mrm: Since macros only add complexity to the compiler, they don't interfere at all with being able to have a straightforward C translation.
2018-10-30T03:20:47Z mrm: Though I can't remember if r7rs decided syntax-rules were the work of satan or not, so might be a moot point.
2018-10-30T03:23:27Z keep_learning_M quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)
2018-10-30T03:35:58Z calwoo joined #scheme
2018-10-30T03:43:31Z erkin quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2018-10-30T03:45:28Z keep_learning_M joined #scheme
2018-10-30T03:49:29Z lockywolf joined #scheme
2018-10-30T04:07:30Z pierpal joined #scheme
2018-10-30T04:13:06Z Fare quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2018-10-30T04:16:00Z calwoo left #scheme
2018-10-30T04:21:00Z keep_learning_M quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)
2018-10-30T04:21:44Z keep_learning_M joined #scheme
2018-10-30T04:23:27Z jao quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2018-10-30T04:24:11Z lockywolf quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
2018-10-30T04:35:06Z DGASAU quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2018-10-30T04:43:57Z DGASAU joined #scheme
2018-10-30T04:48:10Z skapata quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2018-10-30T05:00:40Z keep_learning_M quit (Quit: Leaving)
2018-10-30T05:09:03Z catonano joined #scheme
2018-10-30T05:09:16Z pierpal quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2018-10-30T05:09:36Z pierpal joined #scheme
2018-10-30T05:47:24Z pierpal quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2018-10-30T05:59:46Z pierpal joined #scheme
2018-10-30T06:00:13Z TheGreekOwl joined #scheme
2018-10-30T06:04:25Z Inline quit (Quit: Leaving)
2018-10-30T06:08:35Z catonano quit (Quit: catonano)
2018-10-30T06:10:37Z klovett quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2018-10-30T06:11:55Z cmatei joined #scheme
2018-10-30T06:16:52Z sakalli__ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2018-10-30T06:18:05Z sakalli__ joined #scheme
2018-10-30T06:18:07Z ManDay[m] quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
2018-10-30T06:18:33Z Gnuxie[m] quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
2018-10-30T06:18:37Z ArthurAGleckler[ quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
2018-10-30T06:18:41Z ManDay[m] joined #scheme
2018-10-30T06:20:34Z jcowan quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity)
2018-10-30T06:21:17Z Gnuxie[m] joined #scheme
2018-10-30T06:22:55Z ArthurAGleckler[ joined #scheme
2018-10-30T06:25:52Z sakalli__ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2018-10-30T06:27:45Z sakalli__ joined #scheme
2018-10-30T06:28:44Z catonano joined #scheme
2018-10-30T06:31:27Z ByronJohnson quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2018-10-30T06:32:14Z catonano quit (Client Quit)
2018-10-30T06:32:25Z ByronJohnson joined #scheme
2018-10-30T06:32:31Z catonano joined #scheme
2018-10-30T06:36:44Z catonano quit (Client Quit)
2018-10-30T06:37:01Z catonano joined #scheme
2018-10-30T06:37:02Z TheGreekOwl quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2018-10-30T06:47:45Z catonano quit (Quit: catonano)
2018-10-30T06:48:02Z catonano joined #scheme
2018-10-30T07:06:42Z daviid quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2018-10-30T07:17:15Z catonano quit (Quit: catonano)
2018-10-30T07:17:31Z catonano joined #scheme
2018-10-30T07:18:40Z fadein quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2018-10-30T07:21:45Z catonano quit (Client Quit)
2018-10-30T07:22:02Z catonano joined #scheme
2018-10-30T07:27:58Z catonano quit (Quit: catonano)
2018-10-30T07:29:16Z niklasl2 joined #scheme
2018-10-30T07:30:33Z niklasl quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2018-10-30T07:31:12Z fadein joined #scheme
2018-10-30T07:31:15Z catonano joined #scheme
2018-10-30T07:36:04Z Zipheir quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2018-10-30T07:36:47Z fadein quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2018-10-30T07:43:24Z pierpal quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
2018-10-30T07:43:46Z muelleme joined #scheme
2018-10-30T07:50:54Z muelleme quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2018-10-30T07:54:52Z fadein joined #scheme
2018-10-30T07:56:16Z lritter joined #scheme
2018-10-30T08:06:54Z Zaab1t joined #scheme
2018-10-30T08:07:06Z fizzie quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2018-10-30T08:07:22Z fizzie joined #scheme
2018-10-30T08:25:14Z pierpal joined #scheme
2018-10-30T08:25:48Z siraben: ManDay:  Technically you could reimplement call/cc
2018-10-30T08:26:24Z siraben: Although syntax-rules would be missed
2018-10-30T08:28:18Z siraben: Easy.  Write an interpreter!
2018-10-30T08:28:54Z pierpal quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2018-10-30T08:29:23Z siraben: I'd use a minimal scheme and successive layers of interpreters that can be used to bootstrap.
2018-10-30T08:29:42Z siraben: Implementing hygenic macros would be harder, though.
2018-10-30T08:30:07Z catonano quit (Quit: catonano)
2018-10-30T08:30:21Z ecraven: what about something like riaxpander or alexpander?
2018-10-30T08:30:24Z catonano joined #scheme
2018-10-30T08:30:31Z ecraven: those are fairly self-sufficient and could be run on top of Bottom Scheme?
2018-10-30T08:31:05Z siraben: I'm not familiar with riaxpander or alexpander, what are they?
2018-10-30T08:32:42Z ecraven: not sure what the latest version is, but https://mumble.net/~campbell/darcs/riaxpander/
2018-10-30T08:33:39Z siraben: I see.
2018-10-30T08:34:35Z catonano quit (Client Quit)
2018-10-30T08:34:52Z catonano joined #scheme
2018-10-30T08:38:17Z pierpal joined #scheme
2018-10-30T08:39:14Z pie_ joined #scheme
2018-10-30T08:48:38Z xkapastel quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity)
2018-10-30T08:52:02Z vyzo quit (Quit: Leaving.)
2018-10-30T08:56:16Z pierpal quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
2018-10-30T08:56:23Z catonano quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2018-10-30T08:56:39Z catonano joined #scheme
2018-10-30T08:58:28Z pierpal joined #scheme
2018-10-30T09:00:06Z catonano quit (Client Quit)
2018-10-30T09:00:22Z catonano joined #scheme
2018-10-30T09:01:06Z mejja joined #scheme
2018-10-30T09:04:36Z catonano quit (Client Quit)
2018-10-30T09:04:56Z catonano joined #scheme
2018-10-30T09:07:34Z ssake quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2018-10-30T09:10:06Z catonano quit (Quit: catonano)
2018-10-30T09:10:27Z catonano joined #scheme
2018-10-30T09:10:33Z InverseRhombus quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2018-10-30T09:14:36Z catonano quit (Client Quit)
2018-10-30T09:14:57Z catonano joined #scheme
2018-10-30T09:40:00Z nly quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2018-10-30T09:40:36Z bor0 joined #scheme
2018-10-30T09:44:06Z catonano quit (Quit: catonano)
2018-10-30T09:49:32Z bor0 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2018-10-30T09:51:27Z TheGreekOwl joined #scheme
2018-10-30T09:52:07Z catonano joined #scheme
2018-10-30T09:54:37Z InverseRhombus joined #scheme
2018-10-30T10:08:37Z elderK joined #scheme
2018-10-30T10:11:42Z Zaab1t quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2018-10-30T10:20:26Z pie__ joined #scheme
2018-10-30T10:21:38Z pie_ quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
2018-10-30T10:27:58Z pierpal quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2018-10-30T10:32:57Z skapata joined #scheme
2018-10-30T10:36:10Z pierpal joined #scheme
2018-10-30T10:39:12Z InverseRhombus quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2018-10-30T11:04:35Z jcowan joined #scheme
2018-10-30T11:05:44Z jcowan: mrm: Good point.  And no, syntax-rules are definitely in R7RS-small (but no other macro systems).
2018-10-30T11:06:25Z razzy quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2018-10-30T11:06:41Z razzy joined #scheme
2018-10-30T11:12:57Z razzy` joined #scheme
2018-10-30T11:14:24Z razzy quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2018-10-30T11:26:11Z razzy` quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 26.1))
2018-10-30T11:26:51Z razzy joined #scheme
2018-10-30T11:28:52Z ByronJohnson quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2018-10-30T11:28:52Z pjb quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2018-10-30T11:40:09Z mejja: Riastradh: Please add -*-C-*- and indent chacha.i with/for edwin.
2018-10-30T11:41:33Z ByronJohnson joined #scheme
2018-10-30T11:42:07Z ggole joined #scheme
2018-10-30T11:53:08Z xkapastel joined #scheme
2018-10-30T12:05:29Z razzy quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2018-10-30T12:05:37Z razzy joined #scheme
2018-10-30T12:10:24Z InverseRhombus joined #scheme
2018-10-30T12:17:37Z pierpal quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2018-10-30T12:19:12Z acarrico joined #scheme
2018-10-30T12:21:22Z siraben: ManDay:  I don't have an example.  Perhaps someone crazy/clever enough here can demonstrate how `call/cc` can be implemented.
2018-10-30T12:25:35Z jao joined #scheme
2018-10-30T12:26:01Z razzy quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
2018-10-30T12:27:36Z razzy joined #scheme
2018-10-30T12:36:30Z siraben: ¯_(ツ)_/¯
2018-10-30T12:37:19Z pierpal joined #scheme
2018-10-30T12:41:00Z jao quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
2018-10-30T12:46:02Z jcowan: ManDay[m], siraben: call/cc can be implemented in a variety of ways, the simplest of which is to keep stack frames as a linked list in the heap.  Invoking call/cc forks the list, with the two versions sharing a common tail.
2018-10-30T12:47:41Z pierpal quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2018-10-30T12:47:51Z pierpal joined #scheme
2018-10-30T12:52:54Z siraben: You could.
2018-10-30T12:53:41Z siraben: You asked "can call/cc be expressed by simpler semantics?"
2018-10-30T12:53:44Z siraben: So the answer is yes.
2018-10-30T12:54:31Z siraben: Well obviously you wouldn't do call/cc at the Scheme in Scheme level but in the host language level
2018-10-30T12:54:35Z siraben: For speed and simplicity.
2018-10-30T12:54:41Z jcowan: It can't be expressed *in Scheme* by simpler semantics (modulo your definition of "simple")
2018-10-30T12:54:57Z siraben: Right, what jcowan  said.
2018-10-30T12:54:59Z jcowan: If you have delimited continuations, you can express call/cc in terms of them
2018-10-30T12:55:18Z siraben: How would you implement delimited continuations?
2018-10-30T12:55:32Z siraben: That is a true statement.
2018-10-30T12:55:55Z siraben: Scheme subsets without call/cc can be used all the time
2018-10-30T12:56:20Z siraben: Oh, I can see that.
2018-10-30T12:57:00Z siraben should actually use call/cc for once
2018-10-30T12:57:07Z siraben: There's only some areas where I can imagine it being useful... coroutines, some forms of backtracking
2018-10-30T12:58:15Z siraben: I'm sure there's a really good reson for it being in the core language since R5RS.
2018-10-30T13:00:30Z siraben: In some circumstances I prefer the use of passing the continuation explicitly to the procedure.
2018-10-30T13:00:40Z pierpal quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2018-10-30T13:00:44Z siraben: s/the use of//
2018-10-30T13:01:26Z siraben: For instance, a naïve pattern matcher.
2018-10-30T13:01:39Z siraben: (think of SICP's pattern matcher)
2018-10-30T13:02:15Z siraben: You have something like (match '((? X) (? Y) (? Z)) '(1 2 3)) to get 1 bound to x, 2 to y, and 3 to z
2018-10-30T13:02:19Z siraben: But you don't know how deep you need to recurse to match the entire tree.
2018-10-30T13:02:39Z siraben: So you pass the continuation around in case you found a binding inconsistency and thus can fail immediately.
2018-10-30T13:03:09Z siraben: Sometimes you don't need the fancy call/cc operator, trampoling works too
2018-10-30T13:03:33Z siraben: I've heard that you can use call/cc for simulating multiple returns, I'm not sure how that works.
2018-10-30T13:05:55Z MeihamuSama[m] joined #scheme
2018-10-30T13:13:39Z ioa left #scheme
2018-10-30T13:17:51Z jcowan: the procedure created by call/cc is first-class; you can call it even after the procedure containing the call/cc has exited, so you can return from a procedure dynamically inside the call/cc any number of times.  If you have two call/ccs, you can jump around with total abandon.
2018-10-30T13:19:01Z jcowan: Limited forms of call/cc include call/1c (can only be called once) and call/ec (escape, cannot be used outside the dynamic extent of the call/cc
2018-10-30T13:20:07Z siraben: What do you mean if I have two call/ccs ?
2018-10-30T13:36:35Z siraben: Just a continuation to simulate multiple returns!
2018-10-30T13:48:31Z ggole: You mean, to simulate multiple values? You simply take a continuation argument and call it with N args instead of returning.
2018-10-30T13:49:57Z siraben: Multiple return values != returning a list
2018-10-30T13:50:36Z ggole: I know.
2018-10-30T13:52:01Z ggole: Say you wanted to return both the sum and difference of two numbers, you might do that like this: (lambda (x y k) (k (+ x y) (- x y)))
2018-10-30T13:52:45Z ggole: This is manual CPS rather than using call/cc
2018-10-30T13:54:33Z siraben: Ah, yes.
2018-10-30T13:54:36Z siraben: How would you do it with call/cc ?
2018-10-30T13:55:25Z ggole: The same, you'd wrap the caller in call/cc in order to get the k to pass to the lambda
2018-10-30T13:55:46Z siraben: Right.
2018-10-30T13:56:23Z ggole: The 'true' continuation could be used to do some interesting things like exiting a loop early, so there are some differences
2018-10-30T13:59:56Z ski: siraben : turning internal iteration (like `for-each') into external iteration (like a stream of elements), is one use case of continuations, see <http://paste.lisp.org/display/13979>,<http://paste.lisp.org/display/4013>
2018-10-30T14:00:56Z ski: i suspect that by "If you have two call/ccs, you can jump around with total abandon.", jcowan meant that you could both jump into a procedure, then out, then in again, &c. (as opposed to just jumping back in, and returning normally a second time)
2018-10-30T14:03:54Z siraben: I agree.
2018-10-30T14:04:10Z siraben: `shift` and `reset`, o.O
2018-10-30T14:04:43Z klovett joined #scheme
2018-10-30T14:05:05Z jcowan: That's a simpler case; the delimited continuation is called as a subroutine, rather than invoking the undelimited continuation as a coroutine.
2018-10-30T14:12:52Z ski: jcowan : "the name of a symbol is independent of the package(s) it is in" -- hm, does rename (in import or export) also apply to symbols used by the module ? in that case, could a symbol in one module compare `eq?' to one in another module despite being spelled differently ? should there be a dynamic(?) (partial ?) mapping from symbols to symbol names that determines under which name the symbols is know under, in the current context ?
2018-10-30T14:13:50Z ski: (i think the answers to the first questions are "no". however, i was toying with ideas like this, in the context of Prolog (Prolog atoms corresponding to Lispy symbols))
2018-10-30T14:19:25Z jcowan: Well, in Scheme we need to talk about (compile-time) identifiers rather than (run-time) symbols; they are not conflated as in CL.  So when a library imports the exported identifiers of another library, it can rename them for its own purposes, to avoid a conflict or to be shorter or what not.
2018-10-30T14:19:43Z rain2: hi
2018-10-30T14:20:54Z jcowan: But in the CL context, the idea is that symbol-name would require a package as well as a string, since in this idea a package is a mapping from (arbitrary) names to symbols, and a symbol has no global name of its own.  As things stand, a package maps a symbol's global name to the symbol, and it's an internal error to map the wrong name.
2018-10-30T14:20:59Z ski: jcowan : right. so i was wondering whether there could also be a case for declaring symbols (not identifiers) used (in the public interface, say) by a module, and allow those to be renamed as well
2018-10-30T14:21:37Z jcowan: Easily achieved by binding identifiers to the relevant symbols.
2018-10-30T14:21:48Z ski: that would require loosing the close coupling between a symbol and how it's spelled, though
2018-10-30T14:21:58Z ski: nah, that's not the same thing
2018-10-30T14:22:24Z jcowan: Yes, that's exactly what it requires.  Symbols would not have names; only packages would know about names.
2018-10-30T14:22:32Z ski: say i get hold of a data structure, perhaps some kind of tree, with different kind of nodes, and i extract symbols to check for in a `case'
2018-10-30T14:23:05Z ski: (or perhaps i use symbols to enumerate alternatives in general, not just as tags)
2018-10-30T14:23:54Z jcowan: You can't do that unless you already know not only the names of the symbols but what package(s) they are accessible in
2018-10-30T14:24:04Z jcowan: (in CL as it is)
2018-10-30T14:24:17Z jcowan: (I think using symbols as enums is a mistake, something I'll talk about in my enum srfi)
2018-10-30T14:24:27Z ski: anyway, Prolog goes the CL way here, coupling tightly both predicates (cf. procedures), as well as functors and atoms (cf. symbols) tightly to their names, how they're spelled
2018-10-30T14:24:48Z jcowan: Does Prolog have a module system?
2018-10-30T14:25:25Z ski: for modularity (including higher-order programming) reasons, and for logical reasons, i'd prefer it if they were'nt tightly coupled to the name spelling
2018-10-30T14:26:05Z ski: ISO Prolog doesn't. however several implementations (SWI,SICStis,Yap,..) uses similar module systems
2018-10-30T14:26:22Z ecraven: jcowan: what are the reason for not using symbols as enums?
2018-10-30T14:26:41Z ecraven: I mean, wouldn't the symbol 'foo be the same everywhere in Scheme?
2018-10-30T14:27:05Z jcowan: Primarily because enum objects naturally form enum types, and there is no asking a symbol what type it belongs to.  It's precisely because 'foo is the same everywhere that it is unsuitable as an enum.
2018-10-30T14:27:20Z ski: right
2018-10-30T14:27:44Z ski: while it's simple to just use a symbol, without worrying (bothering) with a declaration first, it also leads to problems like this
2018-10-30T14:27:48Z jcowan: I'm defining an enum as the tuple (identity, type, ordinal, value)
2018-10-30T14:27:51Z ecraven: can an enum belong to multiple types?
2018-10-30T14:28:19Z rain2: how do i implement multiprompt shift reset from single prompt?
2018-10-30T14:28:27Z ecraven: interesting, I never thought about this
2018-10-30T14:29:31Z jcowan: oops, that should be (identity, type, name, ordinal, value) where "identity" is the object identity you get for free with Scheme records
2018-10-30T14:30:25Z ski: (in Mercury (a Prolog descendent), you do have to declare your atoms and functors first as belonging to data types. then you have to export them from the module, if you want to use them outside. but Mercury is statically typed (and moded, "determined") (also adds support for functional programming))
2018-10-30T14:31:02Z ski: can you elaborate on "ordinal" vs. "value" ?
2018-10-30T14:31:16Z jcowan: So enum objects are always distinct in the sense of eqv?, but it does make sense to ask if two enums have the same name (a symbol), like red in SpectralColor vs. red in TrafficLightColor.
2018-10-30T14:31:46Z jcowan: ordinals are assigned 0, 1, 2, ... in order of declaration.  Value is anything you want, so you can have enums whose value is 1, 2, 4, ...
2018-10-30T14:31:53Z jcowan: by default they are the same
2018-10-30T14:32:03Z ski: i see
2018-10-30T14:32:08Z jcowan: this comes up when interfacing with C, where enums often have non-consecutive values
2018-10-30T14:32:14Z ski nods
2018-10-30T14:32:33Z jcowan: ordering is specified by ordinals, as you'd expect
2018-10-30T14:32:54Z jcowan: Given enums, then enum sets and enum maps are straightforward
2018-10-30T14:34:43Z ski: hm, i suppose there's no notion of vectors or arrays, indexed by something else than natural numbers less than the capacity ?
2018-10-30T14:36:27Z ggole: Sounds like Pascal or Ada
2018-10-30T14:37:04Z ski: (in this case, indexed by enums, which would probably internally index by the corresponding ordinals. one can also consider indexing by coordinate vectors of some fixed length (but where different components may belong to different index sets, perhaps enum again, or vectors))
2018-10-30T14:37:32Z ski: (i don't recall being able to index an array in Pascal or Ada by another (say one-dimensional) array)
2018-10-30T14:38:40Z ggole: No, but you don't need to use integers >= 0 as the index type
2018-10-30T14:39:28Z ski: sure
2018-10-30T14:39:31Z jcowan: the array package in SRFI 122 allows you to index by arbitrary integers
2018-10-30T14:40:00Z jcowan: enum maps are basically a vector indexed by the ordinal of an enum
2018-10-30T14:40:11Z jcowan: enum sets the same, except it's a bitvector
2018-10-30T14:49:45Z ecraven: by the way, as I mentioned alexpander earlier, http://petrofsky.org/src/alexpander.scm
2018-10-30T14:50:01Z ecraven: I believe it can be used to add syntax-rules to stalin, for example
2018-10-30T14:56:09Z ski: oh ok (i was assuming "enum maps" would a finite map implemented by some kind of tree)
2018-10-30T14:57:13Z emar quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2018-10-30T14:59:25Z catonano quit (Quit: catonano)
2018-10-30T14:59:59Z catonano joined #scheme
2018-10-30T15:00:21Z jcowan: If you want them to be persistent, yes.  The value of an enum is a specialized enum map.
2018-10-30T15:00:57Z jcowan: Yes, alexpander is a great thing.  Several minority Schemes use it, notably Spock (Chicken in JS)
2018-10-30T15:01:22Z catonano quit (Client Quit)
2018-10-30T15:02:01Z catonano joined #scheme
2018-10-30T15:03:43Z rain2: the link isn't loading for me
2018-10-30T15:03:54Z qu1j0t3: nor me
2018-10-30T15:09:41Z jcowan: nor me, so fall back to http://web.archive.org/web/20171216165612/http://petrofsky.org:80/src/alexpander.scm
2018-10-30T15:10:13Z jcowan: If you give the date as 20202020202020 (or any other date in the future) it will automatically display the most recent version.
2018-10-30T15:10:16Z jcowan: seven 20s
2018-10-30T15:11:32Z ski: (sometimes the most recent version is a 404 or similar, and you have to go back a bit)
2018-10-30T15:12:00Z jcowan: True
2018-10-30T15:14:41Z jcowan: rapid scheme however handles not only syntax-rules but R7RS libs
2018-10-30T15:16:28Z nly joined #scheme
2018-10-30T15:23:11Z jcowan: gah
2018-10-30T15:29:07Z amz31 joined #scheme
2018-10-30T15:29:40Z smazga joined #scheme
2018-10-30T15:29:45Z nly quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2018-10-30T15:30:12Z nly joined #scheme
2018-10-30T15:32:21Z niklasl2 quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2018-10-30T15:32:43Z niklasl joined #scheme
2018-10-30T15:48:56Z nly quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2018-10-30T15:49:01Z nlyy joined #scheme
2018-10-30T15:52:29Z elderK quit
2018-10-30T15:57:14Z Inline joined #scheme
2018-10-30T15:59:05Z emar joined #scheme
2018-10-30T16:08:12Z erkin joined #scheme
2018-10-30T16:25:03Z edgar-rft quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2018-10-30T16:40:42Z mejja: Riastradh, 1,2,3,2,3
2018-10-30T16:47:26Z smazga quit (Quit: leaving)
2018-10-30T16:52:22Z mejja quit (Quit: mejja)
2018-10-30T16:52:58Z smazga joined #scheme
2018-10-30T16:54:56Z InverseRhombus quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2018-10-30T17:03:03Z catonano quit (Quit: catonano)
2018-10-30T17:07:25Z edw joined #scheme
2018-10-30T17:09:03Z catonano joined #scheme
2018-10-30T17:10:04Z amz31 quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.9.1)
2018-10-30T17:13:00Z mhd2018 joined #scheme
2018-10-30T17:25:36Z zachk joined #scheme
2018-10-30T17:25:54Z zachk quit (Changing host)
2018-10-30T17:25:54Z zachk joined #scheme
2018-10-30T17:32:42Z edw quit (Read error: No route to host)
2018-10-30T17:37:38Z mhd2018 quit (Read error: No route to host)
2018-10-30T17:38:36Z lloda quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
2018-10-30T17:39:44Z lloda joined #scheme
2018-10-30T17:40:13Z pjb joined #scheme
2018-10-30T17:40:24Z calwoo joined #scheme
2018-10-30T17:45:40Z ggole quit (Quit: ggole)
2018-10-30T17:54:11Z klovett quit
2018-10-30T18:08:52Z daviid joined #scheme
2018-10-30T18:09:16Z daviid is now known as Guest19351
2018-10-30T18:10:22Z Guest19351 is now known as daviid
2018-10-30T18:20:10Z erkin quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2018-10-30T18:32:02Z klovett joined #scheme
2018-10-30T18:39:47Z calwoo quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2018-10-30T18:39:50Z catonano quit (Quit: catonano)
2018-10-30T18:42:37Z catonano joined #scheme
2018-10-30T19:09:34Z jao joined #scheme
2018-10-30T19:16:12Z lritter quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2018-10-30T19:26:53Z muelleme joined #scheme
2018-10-30T19:32:29Z Zaab1t joined #scheme
2018-10-30T19:39:41Z nlyy quit (Quit: Quit)
2018-10-30T19:47:26Z muelleme quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2018-10-30T19:47:54Z vyzo joined #scheme
2018-10-30T19:50:06Z astronavt joined #scheme
2018-10-30T19:57:55Z astronavt quit (Quit: Leaving)
2018-10-30T20:00:54Z catonano quit (Quit: catonano)
2018-10-30T20:02:20Z catonano joined #scheme
2018-10-30T20:04:12Z edgar-rft joined #scheme
2018-10-30T20:16:02Z calwoo joined #scheme
2018-10-30T20:29:17Z Zipheir joined #scheme
2018-10-30T21:05:01Z InverseRhombus joined #scheme
2018-10-30T21:18:04Z iskander joined #scheme
2018-10-30T21:20:08Z Zaab1t quit (Quit: bye bye friends)
2018-10-30T21:23:49Z astronavt joined #scheme
2018-10-30T21:23:53Z astronavt quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2018-10-30T21:34:15Z CrazyLazyDazy joined #scheme
2018-10-30T21:44:34Z calwoo quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
2018-10-30T21:51:20Z jonaslund joined #scheme
2018-10-30T22:16:52Z pjb quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2018-10-30T22:35:34Z klovett quit
2018-10-30T22:46:26Z catonano quit (Quit: catonano)
2018-10-30T22:47:00Z catonano joined #scheme
2018-10-30T23:04:16Z smazga quit (Quit: leaving)
2018-10-30T23:07:22Z calwoo joined #scheme
2018-10-30T23:18:37Z pjb joined #scheme
2018-10-30T23:20:19Z pierpal joined #scheme
2018-10-30T23:26:50Z acarrico quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
2018-10-30T23:26:54Z klovett joined #scheme
2018-10-30T23:32:16Z daviid quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2018-10-30T23:38:43Z hugo quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2018-10-30T23:52:45Z xkapastel quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity)
2018-10-30T23:54:18Z emacsomancer quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2018-10-31T00:00:01Z emacsomancer joined #scheme
2018-10-31T00:03:56Z catonano quit (Quit: catonano)
2018-10-31T00:04:04Z CrazyLazyDazy quit (Quit: Leaving)
2018-10-31T00:05:46Z terpri joined #scheme
2018-10-31T00:07:20Z acarrico joined #scheme
2018-10-31T00:07:35Z zachk quit (Quit: Leaving)
2018-10-31T00:10:14Z balkamos quit (Read error: No route to host)
2018-10-31T00:11:17Z balkamos_ joined #scheme
2018-10-31T00:14:24Z balkamos_ is now known as balkamos
2018-10-31T00:20:36Z catonano joined #scheme
2018-10-31T00:21:55Z catonano quit (Client Quit)
2018-10-31T00:24:28Z catonano joined #scheme
2018-10-31T00:26:25Z catonano quit (Client Quit)
2018-10-31T00:26:46Z catonano joined #scheme
2018-10-31T00:31:12Z klovett_ joined #scheme
2018-10-31T00:31:13Z daviid joined #scheme
2018-10-31T00:34:00Z klovett quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
2018-10-31T01:08:32Z acarrico quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2018-10-31T01:33:18Z erkin joined #scheme
2018-10-31T01:34:38Z catonano quit (Quit: catonano)
2018-10-31T02:08:54Z skapata quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2018-10-31T02:09:07Z skapata joined #scheme
2018-10-31T02:18:39Z acarrico joined #scheme
2018-10-31T02:54:18Z calwoo quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2018-10-31T02:56:52Z klovett joined #scheme
2018-10-31T02:59:27Z daviid quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2018-10-31T03:00:44Z klovett_ quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
2018-10-31T03:15:22Z calwoo joined #scheme
2018-10-31T03:18:58Z elderK joined #scheme
2018-10-31T03:21:57Z pierpal quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2018-10-31T03:26:11Z klovett quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2018-10-31T03:26:50Z klovett joined #scheme
2018-10-31T03:27:21Z acarrico quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2018-10-31T03:34:17Z terpri_ joined #scheme
2018-10-31T03:35:28Z terpri quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2018-10-31T03:40:55Z klovett quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
2018-10-31T03:41:41Z ArneBab quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
2018-10-31T03:46:43Z pierpal joined #scheme
2018-10-31T03:48:59Z pierpal quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2018-10-31T03:49:13Z pierpal joined #scheme
2018-10-31T03:49:32Z erkin quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2018-10-31T03:51:33Z ArneBab joined #scheme
2018-10-31T03:53:27Z pierpal quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2018-10-31T04:08:19Z klovett joined #scheme
2018-10-31T04:24:11Z calwoo left #scheme
2018-10-31T04:30:10Z jao quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
2018-10-31T04:47:01Z Riastradh: jcowan: Also you should have a lerp procedure, as soon as I figure out how to do it right.
2018-10-31T04:47:34Z Riastradh: One possibility is (define (lerp t a b) (if (< t 1/2) (+ a (* (- b a) t)) (- b (* (- b a) (- 1 t))))), but I'm not 100% sure it does the right thing for all inputs.
2018-10-31T04:47:55Z Riastradh: (The naive (+ a (* (- b a) t)) sometimes gives results outside [a, b].)
2018-10-31T05:04:19Z skapata quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2018-10-31T05:57:49Z Inline quit (Quit: Leaving)
2018-10-31T05:58:47Z cortisol quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2018-10-31T06:00:59Z cortisol joined #scheme
2018-10-31T06:23:19Z ByronJohnson quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2018-10-31T06:23:20Z jcowan quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity)
2018-10-31T06:24:06Z klovett quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2018-10-31T06:24:11Z klovett_ joined #scheme
2018-10-31T06:24:42Z klovett_ quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2018-10-31T06:25:05Z ByronJohnson joined #scheme
2018-10-31T06:25:21Z klovett joined #scheme
2018-10-31T06:25:38Z aeth: In CL alexandria just does (+ (* (- 1.0 v) a) (* v b))
2018-10-31T06:25:52Z aeth: https://gitlab.common-lisp.net/alexandria/alexandria/blob/e5c54bc30b0887c237bde2827036d17315f88737/numbers.lisp#L89-100
2018-10-31T06:25:53Z rudybot: http://teensy.info/j0u116uwPr
2018-10-31T06:28:19Z aeth: Translated into Scheme that would be (+ (* (- 1.0 t) a) (* t b))
2018-10-31T06:28:22Z Riastradh: Well, it turns out that's wrong, except perhaps if a and b have opposite signs.
2018-10-31T06:28:55Z aeth: I don't think that's wrong. A lot of code uses it.
2018-10-31T06:28:59Z Riastradh: Heh.
2018-10-31T06:29:22Z aeth: Well, I mean, a lot of graphics code. Usually wrongness isn't subtle there.
2018-10-31T06:32:31Z aeth: In fact, that's the fixed version.
2018-10-31T06:37:26Z Riastradh: rudybot: eval (begin (define (f t a b) (+ (* (- 1 t) a) (* t b))) (f 4000. 4000. 0.42475836677491291))
2018-10-31T06:37:35Z Riastradh: rudybot?
2018-10-31T06:37:36Z rudybot: Riastradh: error: with-limit: out of time
2018-10-31T06:37:39Z Riastradh: ...
2018-10-31T06:37:44Z Riastradh: rudybot: eval (begin (define (f t a b) (+ (* (- 1 t) a) (* t b))) (f 4000. 4000. 0.42475836677491291))
2018-10-31T06:37:46Z rudybot: Riastradh: your r5rs sandbox is ready
2018-10-31T06:37:47Z rudybot: Riastradh: ; Value: -15994300.9665329
2018-10-31T06:37:55Z Riastradh: !?!!??!?!
2018-10-31T06:38:00Z Riastradh: oh
2018-10-31T06:38:06Z Riastradh: rudybot: eval (begin (define (f t a b) (+ (* (- 1 t) a) (* t b))) (f 0.42475836677491291 4000. 4000.))
2018-10-31T06:38:06Z rudybot: Riastradh: ; Value: 4000.0000000000005
2018-10-31T06:38:10Z Riastradh: There we go.
2018-10-31T06:38:20Z aeth: you go from 0 to 1 generally, I think
2018-10-31T06:38:33Z Riastradh: Yes.  0.42475836677491291 generally lies somewhere between 0 and 1.
2018-10-31T06:39:02Z aeth: 4000.0000000000005 is just floating point error
2018-10-31T06:39:40Z Riastradh: The result does not lie in [a, b], _and_ the function fails to exhibit the property that t < t' implies f(t) <= f(t').
2018-10-31T06:41:13Z aeth: In CLISP, which has arbitrary-precision long floating point: (defun f (v a b) (+ (* (- 1 v) a) (* v b))) (f 0.42475836677491291l0 4000.0 4000.0) => 4000.0
2018-10-31T06:41:24Z aeth: The problem is with floats, not with the function
2018-10-31T06:41:37Z Riastradh: Heh.  No, the problem is with the implementation of this function.
2018-10-31T06:41:42Z aeth: you happened to find something that double-float doesn't like
2018-10-31T06:43:50Z Riastradh: Double-float doesn't have a value system that judges me or the problems I throw at it.  What it does have is correctly rounded basic arithmetic operations out of which you can build complex software with enough theorems to do formal reasoning.
2018-10-31T06:44:23Z aeth: Riastradh: If evaluating between a and a was common enough, there would be an (if (= a a) a (actually-lerp)) but that's probably not worth the performance loss
2018-10-31T06:45:22Z Riastradh: You can just write stuff off as `just floating point error' but if you don't study the nature of the error to understand how or where it is bounded, you're setting yourself up have it explode in your face later on.
2018-10-31T06:46:47Z aeth: 4000.0000000000005 is 17 digits long. double only promises 15 to 17 decimal digits. I guess that means in theory you could do it.
2018-10-31T06:46:55Z aeth: (maybe)
2018-10-31T06:47:50Z aeth: (15 to 17 is what Wikipedia says. I've seen 15 to 16 elsewhere.)
2018-10-31T06:48:11Z Riastradh: Note that evaluating a + (b - a)*t naively _does_ give a nondecreasing implementation (or nonincreasing for b < a), unlike (1 - t)*a + t*b.
2018-10-31T06:49:11Z Riastradh: (Proof: the function t |---> round(x*t) for positive x is nondecreasing, and the function y |---> round(a + y) is nondecreasing, so their composition t |---> round(a + round(round(b - a)*t)) is nondecreasing where x = round(b - a).)
2018-10-31T06:49:51Z Riastradh: aeth: More precisely, it's 52 bits, past the `decimal' point.
2018-10-31T06:50:25Z aeth: did I just off by one myself? I think I did
2018-10-31T06:50:51Z Riastradh: People loosely say anywhere from 15 to 17 decimal digits for various reasons, usually being fast and loose where it doesn't matter much.
2018-10-31T06:51:24Z Riastradh: The largest relative error of round(x) from x in binary64 floating-point is 2^-53; the distance from 1 to the next floating-point number after 1 is 2^-52.
2018-10-31T06:51:34Z Riastradh: 2^-53 is approximately 10^-16.
2018-10-31T06:54:42Z catonano joined #scheme
2018-10-31T06:55:18Z Riastradh: Now, you can write fancy words like `numerically stable' or `catastrophic cancellation' in comments, but that doesn't mean much if you don't substantiate its connection to the logic.
2018-10-31T06:55:26Z aeth: Okay, I just looked it up and the reason why the longer form is prefered over the shorter form is because it guarantees b when t = 1. And the shorter form is common because it is faster. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linear_interpolation#Programming_language_support
2018-10-31T06:55:46Z Riastradh: Heh.
2018-10-31T06:56:02Z Riastradh: So, Wikipedia has the two obvious methods, which each fails one of the obvious properties that this function ought to exhibit.
2018-10-31T06:56:03Z aeth: This is pretty clear when you look at it. You get (1 - 1) * a + 1 * b
2018-10-31T06:56:28Z Riastradh: In particular, for a <= b, it ought to exhibit
2018-10-31T06:56:30Z Riastradh: 1. lerp(0, a, b) = a
2018-10-31T06:56:34Z Riastradh: 2. lerp(1, a, b) = b
2018-10-31T06:56:43Z Riastradh: 3. a <= lerp(t, a, b) <= b
2018-10-31T06:56:56Z Riastradh: 4, if t < t' then lerp(t, a, b) <= lerp(t', a, b)
2018-10-31T06:57:47Z Riastradh: (Maybe there are other properties it should exhibit too; I'm not sure.  I didn't address infinities in the inputs, or signed zero; those should be characterized and justified too.)
2018-10-31T06:57:49Z aeth: Riastradh: Combined it would imply that if you don't care about performance and can use a conditional you could just say (if (= 1 t) b (+ a (* (- b a) t)))
2018-10-31T06:58:12Z Riastradh: aeth: That still fails to be monotonic.
2018-10-31T06:58:56Z Riastradh: Also fails to stay within [a, b].
2018-10-31T06:59:54Z Riastradh: Hmm, maybe it doesn't, that counterexample doesn't work -- but, I lack a counterexample; I don't have a proof.
2018-10-31T07:00:04Z aeth: you could say (max lerp b)
2018-10-31T07:00:14Z aeth: (obviously only works in one direction, you actually need more than that)
2018-10-31T07:00:52Z Riastradh: aeth: It's all well and good to provide suggestions -- but can you provide a proof that it works?
2018-10-31T07:01:59Z aeth: Riastradh: If it's always increasing and you wrap it in max with the maximum value provided, it will stop at that value. Of course, it might not be increasing so you'd need to use max or min depending on whether you're going up or down.
2018-10-31T07:02:10Z aeth: Then you don't even need the (= 1 t) check
2018-10-31T07:02:33Z aeth: But you should probably then check to make sure (<= 0 t 1)
2018-10-31T07:02:52Z Riastradh: One could reasonably ask that the domain be extended to all real values for t.
2018-10-31T07:03:05Z Riastradh: Provided, of course, that when 0 <= t <= 1, a <= lerp(t, a, b) <= b.
2018-10-31T07:03:29Z catonano quit (Quit: catonano)
2018-10-31T07:04:13Z aeth: Then the tricky part would be if you're 4.999998 instead of 5 and 1.000001 is 4.999999
2018-10-31T07:04:49Z aeth: Although I guess you can also do conditionals for (> t 1) and (< 0 t) to make sure that the property is kept
2018-10-31T07:05:00Z aeth: i.e. the minimum for (> t 1) would be 5
2018-10-31T07:05:07Z aeth: (assuming b is 5, like in this example)
2018-10-31T07:05:43Z Riastradh: So, you can keep adding conditionals, but that's a little unsatisfying unless they're justified by showing that (a) it will work, and (b) it won't add gross aberrations, or (c) the gross aberrations are unavoidable.
2018-10-31T07:06:07Z aeth: keep adding? this sounds like that's it
2018-10-31T07:07:55Z aeth: You just need a lerp that always increases or always decreases. Then, you determine which of three intervals it is in. If it's in the middle interval, you make sure it's within [a, b] and if it's in the left interval you make sure it's in (-inf, a] and if it's in the right interval you make sure it's in [b, inf) w.l.o.g. assuming a < b since in code that's just a simple check and then providing min or max depending on its result
2018-10-31T07:08:22Z aeth: The only thing you need to do to make sure it's in that interval is a call to min or max.
2018-10-31T07:10:07Z aeth: If b is 5 and you get 4.9999999 for t > 1, then (max 4.9999999 5) will return 5. If a is 3 and b is 5 and you get 5.0000001 for t < 1, then (max (min 5.0000001 5) 3) returns 5
2018-10-31T07:10:46Z Riastradh: Sure, you can by fiat force things to fit in the right intervals, but do you get excessively large errors near the endpoints or on either side of those?
2018-10-31T07:11:07Z Riastradh: Maybe not.
2018-10-31T07:11:40Z aeth: I'm assuming that if you have the always-increasing (or always-decreasing) lerp the issue is that you're very, very, very slightly off of where you want to be
2018-10-31T07:11:53Z Riastradh: Can you quantify that?
2018-10-31T07:13:08Z Riastradh *zzzpoof*
2018-10-31T07:13:31Z aeth: I'd say worst case of - then * then + but they're not independent. a shows up twice in the naive lerp
2018-10-31T07:14:09Z aeth: Riastradh: Although, actually, yes, I could quantify that without knowing.
2018-10-31T07:14:29Z aeth: Riastradh: How long does it take to iterate through every possible value of double-precision floating point?
2018-10-31T07:14:42Z aeth: Only 3 numbers, so it might be doable
2018-10-31T07:15:18Z aeth: It's a discrete problem so you *can* just brute force your proof
2018-10-31T07:19:46Z aeth: It probably would seem like an impossible task before graphics cards, but it might be feasible today.
2018-10-31T07:19:56Z aeth: s/graphics cards/GPUs/
2018-10-31T07:23:05Z aeth: Just a quick look at the orders of magnitude but it looks like this might only be feasible for single-precision, unfortunately.
2018-10-31T07:32:04Z aeth: Although, going back to the original "worst case of - then * then + but they're not independent", that will just *overestimate* the error iirc, which might be fine. Could still be a bit tricky because on some hardware the - and * will be done in one floating point operation.
2018-10-31T07:32:10Z TheGreekOwl quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
2018-10-31T07:34:18Z lritter joined #scheme
2018-10-31T07:36:13Z vyzo quit (Quit: Leaving.)
2018-10-31T08:20:00Z ng0 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2018-10-31T08:20:45Z ng0 joined #scheme
2018-10-31T08:25:56Z InverseRhombus quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2018-10-31T08:36:27Z muelleme joined #scheme
2018-10-31T08:39:14Z ggole joined #scheme
2018-10-31T08:56:43Z muelleme quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
2018-10-31T08:56:46Z xkapastel joined #scheme
2018-10-31T08:57:18Z ogamita joined #scheme
2018-10-31T08:59:45Z amz31 joined #scheme
2018-10-31T09:13:07Z Seb[m]11 quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2018-10-31T09:13:07Z siraben quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2018-10-31T09:13:09Z MeihamuSama[m] quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2018-10-31T09:13:15Z DeeEff1 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2018-10-31T09:13:15Z Gnuxie[m] quit (Write error: Connection reset by peer)
2018-10-31T09:13:22Z proksi[m] quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2018-10-31T09:13:25Z plll[m] quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2018-10-31T09:13:25Z willghatch[m] quit (Write error: Connection reset by peer)
2018-10-31T09:13:25Z spectrumgomas[m] quit (Write error: Connection reset by peer)
2018-10-31T09:13:26Z ArthurAGleckler[ quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2018-10-31T09:13:28Z mbakke quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2018-10-31T09:13:28Z krsiehl[m] quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2018-10-31T09:13:29Z ManDay[m] quit (Write error: Connection reset by peer)
2018-10-31T09:13:30Z remix2000[m] quit (Write error: Connection reset by peer)
2018-10-31T09:21:36Z DeeEff joined #scheme
2018-10-31T09:24:16Z catonano joined #scheme
2018-10-31T09:30:11Z catonano quit (Quit: catonano)
2018-10-31T09:36:58Z ogamita quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
2018-10-31T09:39:33Z ogamita joined #scheme
2018-10-31T09:40:08Z spectrumgomas[m] joined #scheme
2018-10-31T09:40:08Z test[m] joined #scheme
2018-10-31T09:40:08Z mbakke joined #scheme
2018-10-31T09:40:10Z remix2000[m] joined #scheme
2018-10-31T09:40:11Z willghatch[m] joined #scheme
2018-10-31T09:40:11Z Gnuxie[m] joined #scheme
2018-10-31T09:40:11Z proksi[m] joined #scheme
2018-10-31T09:40:12Z siraben joined #scheme
2018-10-31T09:40:12Z MeihamuSama[m] joined #scheme
2018-10-31T09:40:15Z ArthurAGleckler[ joined #scheme
2018-10-31T09:40:15Z plll[m] joined #scheme
2018-10-31T09:40:18Z Seb[m] joined #scheme
2018-10-31T09:40:19Z krsiehl[m] joined #scheme
2018-10-31T09:40:20Z ManDay[m] joined #scheme
2018-10-31T09:44:15Z lritter quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
2018-10-31T09:57:11Z civodul joined #scheme
2018-10-31T10:00:47Z klovett quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
2018-10-31T10:02:38Z hugo joined #scheme
2018-10-31T10:03:08Z klovett joined #scheme
2018-10-31T10:10:19Z siraben quit (Changing host)
2018-10-31T10:10:19Z siraben joined #scheme
2018-10-31T10:10:19Z siraben quit (Changing host)
2018-10-31T10:10:19Z siraben joined #scheme
2018-10-31T11:07:42Z ogamita quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2018-10-31T11:08:50Z ogamita joined #scheme
2018-10-31T11:18:04Z jcowan joined #scheme
2018-10-31T11:21:56Z ogamita quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2018-10-31T11:24:55Z ogamita joined #scheme
2018-10-31T11:34:01Z siraben: ManDay:  Peter Norvig made a Lisp interpreter in python that has call/cc
2018-10-31T11:34:02Z siraben: http://norvig.com/lispy2.html
2018-10-31T11:34:38Z siraben: I found that this lisp is acceptable enough to be used on Termux (I couldn't get Chibi, CHICKEN or others to compile, something to do with my android version being too old)
2018-10-31T11:34:43Z siraben: Has macros too
2018-10-31T11:40:11Z ggole: I think that's a (misnamed) call/ec
2018-10-31T11:40:32Z ggole: "This implementation allows for non-local escape from procedures. It does not, however, implement the full power of a real Scheme call/cc"
2018-10-31T11:41:49Z siraben: What's a good Scheme implementation in Python?
2018-10-31T11:42:21Z ogamita quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2018-10-31T11:43:03Z muelleme joined #scheme
2018-10-31T11:48:23Z muelleme quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2018-10-31T11:48:34Z ogamita joined #scheme
2018-10-31T11:51:49Z acarrico joined #scheme
2018-10-31T11:52:17Z skapata joined #scheme
2018-10-31T11:53:26Z civodul quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 26.1))
2018-10-31T11:53:59Z catonano joined #scheme
2018-10-31T12:02:09Z ogamita quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2018-10-31T12:04:20Z ogamita joined #scheme
2018-10-31T12:09:07Z Guest13389 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2018-10-31T12:14:16Z InverseRhombus joined #scheme
2018-10-31T12:22:04Z Guest13389 joined #scheme
2018-10-31T12:38:58Z klovett quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2018-10-31T12:39:17Z klovett joined #scheme
2018-10-31T12:40:03Z ogamita quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2018-10-31T12:42:54Z ogamita joined #scheme
2018-10-31T12:49:49Z jao joined #scheme
2018-10-31T13:15:44Z amz31 left #scheme
2018-10-31T13:16:00Z amz3` joined #scheme
2018-10-31T13:16:07Z amz3`: siraben: fwiw https://github.com/Calysto/calysto_scheme
2018-10-31T13:16:42Z amz3`: there is also 'hy' which python using s-expr
2018-10-31T13:16:46Z amz3`: maybe it support macros
2018-10-31T13:22:34Z ogamita quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2018-10-31T13:24:11Z ogamita joined #scheme
2018-10-31T13:29:24Z erkin joined #scheme
2018-10-31T13:31:16Z snow_bckspc quit (Quit: User was destroyed by a weapon of mass destruction.)
2018-10-31T13:31:33Z InverseRhombus quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2018-10-31T13:31:59Z snw joined #scheme
2018-10-31T13:42:47Z ogamita quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
2018-10-31T13:43:57Z ogamita joined #scheme
2018-10-31T13:52:09Z ogamita quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2018-10-31T13:54:13Z ogamita joined #scheme
2018-10-31T13:54:52Z ogamita quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2018-10-31T14:02:34Z InverseRhombus joined #scheme
2018-10-31T14:05:38Z wasamasa is now known as AifoheeK
2018-10-31T14:05:58Z AifoheeK is now known as ohNaizoo
2018-10-31T14:06:48Z InverseRhombus quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2018-10-31T14:07:34Z InverseRhombus joined #scheme
2018-10-31T14:18:01Z ohNaizoo is now known as bagelmasa
2018-10-31T14:30:04Z bagelmasa is now known as wasilisk
2018-10-31T14:36:39Z nly joined #scheme
2018-10-31T14:44:02Z Zaab1t joined #scheme
2018-10-31T14:45:47Z nly quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2018-10-31T14:48:01Z nly joined #scheme
2018-10-31T14:55:42Z Riastradh: aeth: There are a little under 2^192 triples of double floating-point numbers.  Unless you know some magic that I don't, I'm pretty sure you can't enumerate them all!
2018-10-31T14:56:06Z klovett quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2018-10-31T14:56:22Z Riastradh: aeth: And yes, the errors are not going to be independent.  For example, it turns out that, even though there are two rounding errors in ((x + x) + x) + x, it is always computed exactly.
2018-10-31T14:57:36Z Riastradh: aeth: As for fusing the add and multiply: that happens only if your compiler is broken.  One of the candidate methods to evaluate lerp does use fma: <https://fgiesen.wordpress.com/2012/08/15/linear-interpolation-past-present-and-future/>.  But I'm not looking for candidates; I'm looking for proofs that they're correct.
2018-10-31T15:04:13Z dbmikus joined #scheme
2018-10-31T15:04:37Z klovett joined #scheme
2018-10-31T15:04:49Z Inline joined #scheme
2018-10-31T15:05:50Z klovett_ joined #scheme
2018-10-31T15:09:06Z klovett quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2018-10-31T15:09:39Z dbmikus_ joined #scheme
2018-10-31T15:11:21Z dbmikus quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2018-10-31T15:16:40Z robotoad joined #scheme
2018-10-31T15:20:49Z jcowan: libc and consequently SRFI 144 provide fma and a flag that indicates whether it's worth using (though it always works even on machines without fma instructions).
2018-10-31T15:28:18Z jcowan: siraben: To be fair, Bigloo doesn't support full call/cc either unless you use a special compiler option, nor does it support the general case of proper tail calling.
2018-10-31T15:29:06Z jcowan: My view is that an implementation can claim conformance to a standard and yet not implement every "mandatory" feature, provided it puts an explicit derogation into the documentation stating what MUSTs it does not observe.
2018-10-31T15:30:09Z jcowan: Larceny calls itself R6RS-compatible rather than R6RS-conforming because it does not always handle erroneous code in the way R6RS prescribes.
2018-10-31T15:36:41Z Riastradh: Implementing correctly rounded fma in terms of other arithmetic if it's not provided in hardware is a pain, so it's worth providing and using for correctness even if you don't want to use it for performance.
2018-10-31T15:38:38Z Riastradh: If a <= 0 <= b, then round(1 - t) is nonincreasing, round(round(1 - t)*a) is nondecreasing, and round(t*b) is nondecreasing, so their (rounded) sum should be nondecreasing too.
2018-10-31T15:40:00Z jcowan: OTOH, if you care more for speed than correctness, a + b*c still wins, as the time cost of proper fma can be large, hence the flag.
2018-10-31T15:40:23Z Riastradh: Sure.
2018-10-31T15:40:28Z jcowan: ("In Scheme, no one purpose trumps all others.")
2018-10-31T15:40:45Z Riastradh: (Does the flag cover whether the host's libm implements fma in hardware or software?)
2018-10-31T15:48:14Z jjong joined #scheme
2018-10-31T15:51:27Z jjong quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2018-10-31T15:51:31Z MeihamuSama[m] quit (Quit: issued !quit command)
2018-10-31T15:53:15Z elderK quit
2018-10-31T15:53:36Z MeihamuSama[m] joined #scheme
2018-10-31T15:55:05Z smazga joined #scheme
2018-10-31T15:58:06Z pjb quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2018-10-31T16:00:52Z alezost joined #scheme
2018-10-31T16:10:19Z ggole quit (Quit: ggole)
2018-10-31T16:17:33Z catonano quit (Quit: catonano)
2018-10-31T16:17:48Z eddof13 joined #scheme
2018-10-31T16:21:27Z eddof13 quit (Client Quit)
2018-10-31T16:28:46Z DGASAU quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2018-10-31T16:29:24Z Mayoi joined #scheme
2018-10-31T16:29:40Z DGASAU joined #scheme
2018-10-31T16:35:35Z Mayoi quit (Quit: Ouch! Got SIGIRL, dying...)
2018-10-31T16:38:58Z amz3` quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.9.1)
2018-10-31T16:39:35Z jcowan: No, just whether, given that you don't care about loss of precision, it is faster to use fma(x, y, z) than x*y+z.  Presumably that usually means hardware, but I suppose a fast precise software implementation could be discovered that compilers did not yet support.
2018-10-31T16:41:01Z catonano joined #scheme
2018-10-31T16:42:13Z jcowan: Contrariwise, you want to avoid fma if the flag is false unless you need the precision.
2018-10-31T16:43:31Z astronavt joined #scheme
2018-10-31T16:46:18Z klovett joined #scheme
2018-10-31T16:48:08Z klovett quit (Client Quit)
2018-10-31T16:48:28Z nly quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2018-10-31T16:48:43Z erkin quit (Quit: Ouch! Got SIGIRL, dying...)
2018-10-31T16:48:57Z erkin joined #scheme
2018-10-31T16:49:26Z klovett_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2018-10-31T16:50:36Z erkin quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2018-10-31T16:50:51Z erkin joined #scheme
2018-10-31T16:54:09Z TheGreekOwl joined #scheme
2018-10-31T16:54:33Z InverseRhombus quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2018-10-31T16:54:54Z blackwolf joined #scheme
2018-10-31T16:55:11Z InverseRhombus joined #scheme
2018-10-31T17:05:45Z nly joined #scheme
2018-10-31T17:10:00Z ski quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2018-10-31T17:10:36Z nly quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
2018-10-31T17:11:08Z aeth: Riastradh: Well, I at the very least simplified the problem a ton. Now you just need something that's monotonic and with low errors around the areas of interest and then you min/max as necessary to keep the desired min/max at the boundaries. And you don't need the exact error if your overestimation is still low enough.
2018-10-31T17:11:45Z aeth: So you take an imperfect lerp and make it meet the other characteristics.
2018-10-31T17:16:02Z aeth: if a < b then if t < 0 min(lerp(t, a, b), a) else if 0 <= t <= 1 max(min(lerp(t, a, b), b), a) else if t > 1 max(lerp(t, a, b), b)
2018-10-31T17:16:17Z aeth: And if a > b flip the min/max
2018-10-31T17:17:49Z aeth: Then you need to look at t close to 0 and t close to 1 to make sure the rounding isn't too bad
2018-10-31T17:19:03Z aeth: Alternatively, there could be a formula that does take t close to 0 and t close to 1 into account somehow in a purely formulaic way and this at least gave intuition
2018-10-31T17:21:26Z aeth: An advantage of having separate a < b and b > a cases is you could have an else for a = b that just returns a for that edge case.
2018-10-31T17:24:29Z Riastradh: So, I could start with lerp(t, a, b) = a + (b - a)*sqrt(t), but obviously the error bounds in that are going to be quite bad.  I'm not asking for help cobbling together a chain of conditionals with toothpicks and duct tape that kinda sorta works at the endpoints -- I'm looking for (a) a simple technique with (b) a clear and convincing proof of reasonable error bounds.
2018-10-31T17:25:06Z klovett joined #scheme
2018-10-31T17:30:03Z catonano quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2018-10-31T17:31:24Z alezost quit (Quit: I live in GuixSD <http://www.gnu.org/s/guix> and Emacs <http://www.gnu.org/s/emacs>)
2018-10-31T17:33:58Z aeth: Riastradh: you could try ##math or a mathematics forum
2018-10-31T17:35:47Z Zipheir: Riastradh: Ask hackers, get hacky answers :)
2018-10-31T17:35:57Z aeth: Riastradh: you could also try https://arxiv.org/search/?query=%22linear+interpolation%22&searchtype=all&abstracts=show&order=-announced_date_first&size=50
2018-10-31T17:35:57Z rudybot: http://teensy.info/FAlLPJ1BhP
2018-10-31T17:37:11Z Riastradh: `Sorry, your query for all: "linear interpolation" floating-point produced no results.'
2018-10-31T17:37:20Z aeth: I think everyone except mathematicians (or computer scientists in this field, it's kind of interdisciplinary) would be satisified by either (a) using an existing LERP or (b) hacking an existing LERP with a bunch of conditionals to fix the obvious pain points
2018-10-31T17:37:29Z aeth: So you're probably going to have to go into the numerical computation literature
2018-10-31T17:37:53Z aeth: numerical analysis, probably?
2018-10-31T17:38:22Z groovy2shoes quit (Quit: moritura te salutat)
2018-10-31T17:39:47Z aeth: And if it's not in the literature (not being in arxiv just means you'll probably have to find it on the author's website once you find the abstract in a paywalled journal) then you're going to want to either get a graduate degree in the field (in comp sci or math) or hire one.
2018-10-31T17:41:03Z aeth: It's probably in the literature already, just with a poorly written abstract, unfortunately.
2018-10-31T17:42:59Z aeth: Anyway, that's just my 2¢. Stuff like this always seems to end with reading papers because only academics have enough rigor.
2018-10-31T17:43:38Z aeth: At least, the best case is someone published it. Worst case is nvidia's using it in their hardware and not sharing.
2018-10-31T17:46:08Z Zipheir: I'm going to guess nVidia's using the 'toothpicks and duct tape' version.
2018-10-31T17:49:09Z ski joined #scheme
2018-10-31T17:54:16Z eddof13 joined #scheme
2018-10-31T17:55:36Z groovy2shoes joined #scheme
2018-10-31T17:59:25Z InverseRhombus quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2018-10-31T17:59:47Z aeth: nvidia probably goes for speed b/c graphics
2018-10-31T18:03:07Z edw joined #scheme
2018-10-31T18:05:16Z Riastradh: I wouldn't be surprised if nvidia had a (correctly rounded) hardware lerp unit -- it's not much more than fma.
2018-10-31T18:05:18Z eddof13 quit (Quit: eddof13)
2018-10-31T18:06:16Z Riastradh: (If fma(a, b, c) = a*b + c, then lerp(t, a, b) = fma(t, b, fma(-t, a, a)), at least in real arithmetic.)
2018-10-31T18:06:19Z eddof13 joined #scheme
2018-10-31T18:11:45Z eddof13 quit (Quit: eddof13)
2018-10-31T18:15:43Z eddof13 joined #scheme
2018-10-31T18:17:31Z edw quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2018-10-31T18:30:04Z edw joined #scheme
2018-10-31T18:40:54Z pjb joined #scheme
2018-10-31T18:41:58Z eddof13 quit (Quit: eddof13)
2018-10-31T18:51:29Z weinholt: Riastradh, OpenCL can use the GPU's hardware lerp (in OpenCL terms: sampler) when reading from 2D/3D images: https://www.khronos.org/registry/OpenCL/specs/opencl-1.0.pdf#page=215 and there should be an MIT-licensed implementation in Pocl
2018-10-31T19:05:40Z nly joined #scheme
2018-10-31T19:05:56Z edw quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
2018-10-31T19:12:27Z eddof13 joined #scheme
2018-10-31T19:13:00Z eddof13 quit (Client Quit)
2018-10-31T19:22:24Z zachk joined #scheme
2018-10-31T19:28:25Z astronavt quit (Quit: Leaving)
2018-10-31T19:30:03Z Zenton quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2018-10-31T19:30:19Z Zenton joined #scheme
2018-10-31T19:36:31Z eddof13 joined #scheme
2018-10-31T19:45:17Z zachk quit (Changing host)
2018-10-31T19:45:17Z zachk joined #scheme
2018-10-31T19:54:38Z Zaab1t quit (Quit: bye bye friends)
2018-10-31T19:58:54Z daviid joined #scheme
2018-10-31T19:59:27Z cmatei quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2018-10-31T19:59:45Z cmatei joined #scheme
2018-10-31T20:03:15Z eddof13 quit (Quit: eddof13)
2018-10-31T20:04:03Z eddof13 joined #scheme
2018-10-31T20:05:34Z InverseRhombus joined #scheme
2018-10-31T20:13:08Z ubii joined #scheme
2018-10-31T20:14:28Z catonano joined #scheme
2018-10-31T20:20:15Z eddof13 quit (Quit: eddof13)
2018-10-31T20:39:42Z eddof13 joined #scheme
2018-10-31T20:42:48Z blackwolf quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 25.3.1))
2018-10-31T20:42:55Z lambda-11235 joined #scheme
2018-10-31T21:11:13Z vyzo joined #scheme
2018-10-31T21:26:09Z daviid` joined #scheme
2018-10-31T21:27:22Z muelleme joined #scheme
2018-10-31T21:27:27Z daviid quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2018-10-31T21:34:06Z eddof13 quit (Quit: eddof13)
2018-10-31T21:42:20Z eddof13 joined #scheme
2018-10-31T21:43:10Z eddof13 quit (Client Quit)
2018-10-31T21:45:46Z lambda-11235 quit (Quit: Bye)
2018-10-31T21:45:56Z eddof13 joined #scheme
2018-10-31T21:47:07Z klovett quit
2018-10-31T22:08:31Z TheGreekOwl quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2018-10-31T22:17:36Z robotoad quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2018-10-31T22:18:15Z eddof13 quit (Quit: eddof13)
2018-10-31T22:19:08Z robotoad joined #scheme
2018-10-31T22:19:41Z eddof13 joined #scheme
2018-10-31T22:21:37Z smazga quit (Quit: leaving)
2018-10-31T22:24:45Z muelleme quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2018-10-31T22:29:46Z pie__ quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2018-10-31T22:30:47Z muelleme joined #scheme
2018-10-31T22:38:51Z daviid` quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2018-10-31T22:41:50Z muelleme quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
2018-10-31T22:42:00Z on_ion joined #scheme
2018-10-31T22:43:06Z oni-on-ion quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2018-10-31T22:47:23Z catonano quit (Quit: catonano)
2018-10-31T22:51:41Z dbmikus_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2018-10-31T23:00:35Z klovett joined #scheme
2018-10-31T23:01:05Z klovett quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2018-10-31T23:02:00Z klovett joined #scheme
2018-10-31T23:23:19Z jcowan quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity)
2018-10-31T23:33:37Z dbmikus_ joined #scheme
2018-10-31T23:38:04Z robotoad quit (Quit: robotoad)
2018-10-31T23:38:18Z dbmikus_ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2018-10-31T23:44:56Z daviid joined #scheme
2018-10-31T23:47:07Z dsp quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)