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2018-07-01T09:34:13Z amz3: who submitted a paper to https://brinckerhoff.org/scheme2018/
2018-07-01T09:34:15Z amz3: ?
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2018-07-02T18:29:57Z ecraven: is it on purpose that there is no conversion function from a bytevector to list or vector in r7rs? only to string (which is not lossless, as utf8->string doesn't always work)
2018-07-02T18:32:35Z aeth: Why isn't there something like CL's coerce? Is that saved for r7rs-large? It seems like it would work well when you have a lot of different sequence types. (coerce some-byte-vector 'vector) or (coerce some-vector 'list)
2018-07-02T18:32:58Z aeth: e.g. in CL: (coerce #(1 2 3 4) 'list) => (1 2 3 4)
2018-07-02T18:33:06Z ecraven: aeth: unfortunately that wouldn't fit the existing functions (x->y) at all :-/
2018-07-02T18:33:17Z ecraven: also, without generic functions, it would be non-extensible
2018-07-02T18:33:22Z aeth: ecraven: It would mostly be built on x->y
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2018-07-02T18:34:14Z aeth: ecraven: I don't think it's extensible in CL because sequences aren't portably extensible in CL. (coerce also works on numbers.)
2018-07-02T18:34:34Z ecraven: ah, I assumed it was a CLOS generic function
2018-07-02T18:35:16Z aeth: It's a lot more necessary in CL, though, because arrays can be specialized. e.g. (coerce #(1f0 2f0 3f0 4f0) '(simple-array single-float (*)))
2018-07-02T18:35:59Z aeth: That will turn a literal vector holding T into one that can only hold single-floats. The * is just the size. Easier to have a * there than to specify it and get it wrong.
2018-07-02T18:36:25Z ecraven: well, there's been talk (and a lot of wishing for) specialised vectors in Scheme too ;)
2018-07-02T18:36:33Z ecraven: all the u16vector and friends
2018-07-02T18:36:49Z ecraven: that would make conversion a *lot* more complicated, if we go the x->y route :-/
2018-07-02T18:36:52Z ecraven: (also Y
2018-07-02T18:37:03Z ecraven: y<-x seems much more logical to me, given prefix notation)
2018-07-02T18:37:50Z aeth: You'd basically need something like coerce if you wanted specialized arrays. Probably also needed for multiple floating point types like CL.
2018-07-02T18:39:15Z aeth: The problem is that it's '(simple-array single-float (*)) but it could also be '(simple-array (unsigned-byte 32) (4 5 7)) or something.
2018-07-02T18:40:01Z aeth: At least, if you wanted a system like CL's, where you store bits or various byte sizes or float types (or characters, obviously) in arrays.
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2018-07-02T18:40:49Z ecraven: yea, I fear Scheme won't be as general as CL is there :-/ but we should support at least 8-64 (128?) bit signed/unsigned integers and 32/64 bit floats
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2018-07-02T18:41:36Z aeth: CL only guarantees bit and character arrays, but byte arrays ((unsigned-byte 8) in CL) are de facto necessary for interfacing with the world.
2018-07-02T18:41:51Z aeth: Every implementation except CLISP that I've tested also has single-float and double-float.
2018-07-02T18:42:07Z ecraven: well, r7rs has bytevectors, which are exactly those u8 vectors
2018-07-02T18:42:07Z aeth: So Scheme could easily guarantee more sizes.
2018-07-02T18:42:11Z ecraven: it's just missing everything else :-/
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2018-07-02T18:43:33Z aeth: Iirc, what you generally get for integers in CL implementations is signed/unsigned 8/16/32/64 (if 64-bit) and fixnum as well as various seemingly random sizes (it rounds if you specify an invalid size). I'm guessing the random sizes include things like what the 32-bit fixnum size is for that implementation
2018-07-02T18:44:09Z aeth: character and bit, as I said, are required. And, of course, you also tend to get single-float and double-float.
2018-07-02T18:44:56Z aeth: 64-bit ints larger than the fixnum size and double-floats are boxed, so these arrays are actually kinda key to manually avoiding boxing in places. Or, rather, making your own boxes instead of using the system's.
2018-07-02T18:45:31Z ecraven: also, you need those for the FFI anyway
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2018-07-02T18:49:22Z aeth: If I ever get around to finishing cl-scheme I'll probably just expose make-array and coerce directly as well as a few other necessary things for working with this array system. I guess aref as aref and (setf aref) as set-aref!
2018-07-02T18:49:59Z ecraven: aeth: is your code available anywhere? I'd love to look at that
2018-07-02T18:50:01Z aeth: The main flaw I see in CL's system is that it doesn't require enough.
2018-07-02T18:50:19Z aeth: (Pretty much everything is implementation-specific and de-facto mandatory, but you might get a T array or something)
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2018-07-02T18:51:21Z aeth: ecraven: I think I posted standard-procedures.lisp a long time ago somewhere, but if I returned to it I'd probably completely redo the internals.
2018-07-02T18:51:31Z ecraven: hehe
2018-07-02T18:53:17Z aeth: ecraven: https://gitlab.com/snippets/1729865
2018-07-02T18:53:34Z ecraven: aeth: thanks!
2018-07-02T18:54:19Z aeth: ecraven: it basically requires two macros. define-scheme-procedure and define-scheme-predicate. The only distinction is that define-scheme-predicate will take any NIL in the return value and treat it as #f instead of '()
2018-07-02T18:55:11Z aeth: I also added a define-scheme-cxr because I'm lazy and they're almost directly equivalent. They're not quite equivalent, though. I think CL returns NIL when you operate on NIL and Scheme would error when you do things like car on '() iirc
2018-07-02T18:55:24Z ecraven: yes, that's the main difference, I think
2018-07-02T18:55:25Z aeth: If I didn't currently handle that I could always just add a simple check
2018-07-02T18:55:33Z aeth: s/didn't/don't/
2018-07-02T18:55:40Z ecraven: how do you handle '() / #f vs. nil?
2018-07-02T18:55:47Z aeth: #f is :false
2018-07-02T18:55:59Z aeth: It's just as fast to compare to :false as it is to compare to NIL
2018-07-02T18:56:17Z aeth: It's just a different integer constant, I guess.
2018-07-02T18:56:59Z ecraven: so you'd have to change what `if' means, to make it compare against :false instead of NIL?
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2018-07-02T18:57:22Z aeth: Yes, but the file I showed you is in Common Lisp
2018-07-02T18:58:34Z aeth: Most of the translations are pretty exact. If there wasn't an equivalent, I mostly wrote my own trivial functions in a separate file, e.g. exactp
2018-07-02T18:58:51Z aeth: It'd probably be useful to have the CL version around
2018-07-02T18:59:03Z ecraven: can you even redefine `if' in CL?
2018-07-02T18:59:16Z aeth: Yes, CL namespaces its symbols via its package system.
2018-07-02T18:59:23Z aeth: if is really cl:if
2018-07-02T18:59:49Z aeth: At the moment, I prefix everything with scheme-, but I could just as easily just put it in a scheme: package that doesn't use the :cl package
2018-07-02T19:00:03Z ecraven: ah, great
2018-07-02T19:00:36Z aeth: I'm not showing you the implementation because other than the stuff like exactp I'd probably rewrite everything if I went back to it.
2018-07-02T19:01:11Z ecraven: that's ok, it's nice to know this would work ;) I'd love to get SLIME fully working with some R7RS Scheme
2018-07-02T19:02:22Z aeth: Actually running it in SLIME is probably another, extra step. It'd also probably be another, extra step to make this run comparable to the host CL (probably SBCL). There's a lot of things that should be inlined. Almost all of standard-procedures unless you're using some fancy continuation magic.
2018-07-02T19:02:52Z aeth: s/run comparable to/run comparably as fast as/
2018-07-02T19:03:52Z aeth: In theory, a Scheme running on CL could wind up faster than its host CL if the Scheme liberally adds type information that a human probably would not normally add. (SBCL is at its fastest when it's essentially statically typed.)
2018-07-02T19:03:55Z ecraven: aeth: well, it would be great to use it to develop, using SLIME's power, you can always deploy on chez or one of the other "fast" Schemes in case SBCL turns out too slow (*if* you write portable code :P)
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2018-07-02T19:05:59Z aeth: ecraven: Assuming a good transformation process into native CL, this should be one of the fastest Schemes, and definitely the fastest Scheme for the time spent. It'd be everything everyone intuitively thinks compiling to C would be, except without as much mismatch in semantics so the host compiler could do more work.
2018-07-02T19:06:34Z ecraven: aeth: well, I'm not very good at CL, but if there's anything I can do to help, I'll gladly try ;)
2018-07-02T19:06:36Z aeth: Continuations and a mutable global environment are the only tricky parts. So tricky that I've shelved this project until I have the time to focus on it and get good ideas.
2018-07-02T19:07:00Z ecraven: maybe it would be ok to ignore continuations for a first try?
2018-07-02T19:07:03Z ecraven: like bigloo :P
2018-07-02T19:08:28Z aeth: If I ignored continuations, then every Scheme procedure would basically directly translate to a CL function. The complication, then, is tail recursion isn't guaranteed in CL. And in SBCL it will only happen at certain optimization levels.
2018-07-02T19:08:49Z aeth: So even then it would probably need a 'runtime' of a trampoline, which doesn't appear to add any performance overhead.
2018-07-02T19:09:07Z aeth: It's a handful of lines.
2018-07-02T19:09:40Z aeth: The fancier it is under the hood, the more I'd have to manually inline trivial things, I guess.
2018-07-02T19:11:53Z aeth: I think the hardest parts, though, are making it useful. It'd need SLIME and Geiser support and the functionality of the host CL would have to be exposed (e.g. make-array, coerce, aref, and set-aref! for arrays... and maybe even CLOS)
2018-07-02T19:12:28Z aeth: I guess hash-tables and structs would also have to be exposed.
2018-07-02T19:12:50Z ecraven: well, there's srfi-69 for hashtables, and define-record-type might work for structs?
2018-07-02T19:13:45Z aeth: If there's too much of a mismatch, structs would have to be their own thing and define-record-type would be its own thing built on structs or CLOS objects.
2018-07-02T19:13:58Z aeth: I haven't looked into that part yet, though.
2018-07-02T19:14:00Z ecraven: it all depends on what your goals are.
2018-07-02T19:14:24Z ecraven: personally, I'd prefer it if things converged towards r7rs-large, not divided even further :-/
2018-07-02T19:14:30Z aeth: Well, ideally, someone would go through and define-scheme-procedure, define-scheme-predicate, etc., all of Quicklisp.
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2018-07-02T19:15:41Z aeth: Macros that transform the code wouldn't be translatable, e.g. with-sdl-event in cl-sdl2 transforms any instances of (event foo) in its body at the macro level. These macros are evil, though.
2018-07-02T19:16:21Z ecraven: wouldn't this create a new "dialect" of Scheme (cl-scheme)?
2018-07-02T19:16:26Z ecraven: though I'd love a Lisp-1 CL  :-/
2018-07-02T19:17:34Z aeth: Unfortunately, the way it works, it'd happen no matter what. If there's a SRFI or r7rs-large foo and a CL foo with slightly different semantics, using a directly wrapped CL foo will beat the r7rs-large foo in performance on cl-scheme because there'd be some runtime overhead for every mismatch in sematics.
2018-07-02T19:18:17Z aeth: Well, almost every mismatch. As I said, using :false for #f is zero-cost because it's just comparing to the constant integer that :false represents instead of the constant integer that NIL represents.
2018-07-02T19:19:56Z aeth: It doesn't even hurt the types because I can just define the Scheme boolean as the type (member t :false)
2018-07-02T19:21:44Z ecraven: I'll keep pinging you about this every few months ;)
2018-07-02T19:29:17Z aeth: I'll need to come up with a solution for continuations
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2018-07-02T22:16:30Z jcowan_: srfi-160, if it gets into r7rs-large, will be the support for homogeneous vectors (u1, u8, s8, u16, s16, u32, s32, u64, s64, f32, f64, c64, c128)
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2018-07-02T23:03:50Z aeth: Apparently (signed-byte 1) is a thing, at least in CL. -1 and 0.
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2018-07-03T05:24:49Z jcowan_: aeth: Even weirder is what happens in C when you define a 1-bit bytefield and don't say if it's signed or unsigned.  The result is that it has two values, 0 and not 0.
2018-07-03T05:25:09Z wasamasa: to 0 or not to 0, that is the question
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2018-07-04T15:21:25Z proksi[m]: Hi guys
2018-07-04T15:21:52Z ecraven: hey ;)
2018-07-04T15:22:33Z proksi[m]: What book would you recommend to learn Scheme basics? I'm familiar with C and Python
2018-07-04T15:22:56Z ecraven: look in the topic
2018-07-04T15:22:59Z ecraven: there's a few linked there
2018-07-04T15:25:33Z proksi[m]: Well, I've found a list of books on schemers dot org
2018-07-04T15:26:00Z proksi[m]: The question is - which one is better to start and not outdated?
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2018-07-04T15:26:43Z pjb: proksi[m]: if you want to learn just scheme basics, already knowing programming, read the r5rs. It's 50 pages (actually only 35 pages).
2018-07-04T15:26:54Z ecraven: well, I liked SICP, but others didn't like it as an introduction to Scheme. in the end, just read r5rs or r7rs
2018-07-04T15:27:04Z ecraven: skip the parts you don't feel like reading
2018-07-04T15:27:11Z ecraven: then start up a repl and program ;)
2018-07-04T15:27:20Z pjb: proksi[m]: but chances are you don't know programming, if you only learned C and Python. Then indeed, reading sicp will set your brains on fire.
2018-07-04T15:27:27Z ecraven: pick an implementation that seems ok, don't sweat about it, you'll probably use multiple anyway
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2018-07-04T15:27:49Z pjb: proksi[m]: to learn scheme more deeply, you may want to read htdp.
2018-07-04T15:28:03Z pjb: (set! ecraven (+ 1 ecraven))
2018-07-04T15:28:55Z proksi[m]: Thank you guys :)
2018-07-04T15:29:58Z proksi[m]: I think I'll start with SICP
2018-07-04T15:30:26Z pjb: good choice.
2018-07-04T15:30:42Z proksi[m]: Already played with Racket, but when tried to shift to Gambit felt like I didn't know some basics of language
2018-07-04T15:30:43Z pjb: proksi[m]: also, there are the lecture videos.
2018-07-04T15:30:44Z ecraven: you can always go and read something else if you don't like it
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2018-07-04T15:30:59Z pjb: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Op3QLzMgSY&list=PL8FE88AA54363BC46
2018-07-04T15:31:08Z ecraven: proksi[m]: there is common ground, but it's easier to see later ;)
2018-07-04T15:31:17Z ecraven: those are so great!
2018-07-04T15:33:53Z proksi[m]: pjb: Oh, that is very good, thanks. I feel much more comfortable with video lectures, than just reading
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2018-07-04T16:56:07Z Zipheir wonders if the topic should use for-each...
2018-07-04T16:59:27Z civodul: Zipheir: that was also my first reaction, but i never dared to speak up
2018-07-04T16:59:32Z civodul: glad i'm not alone ;-)
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2018-07-04T18:36:49Z ecraven: do we have a bot that can tell people here things later?
2018-07-04T18:37:19Z ecraven: rudybot: later tell jcowan could you be persuaded to add bytevector-u16-ref and friends to srfi-160
2018-07-04T18:37:20Z rudybot: ecraven: I asked `MemoServ' to forward the message to jcowan.
2018-07-04T18:40:57Z pjb: minion: are you here?
2018-07-04T18:41:22Z pjb: minion was on more channel once. Now it's only on #lisp and #clnoobs…
2018-07-04T18:42:44Z amz3: Zipheir: what are you up to?
2018-07-04T18:42:58Z amz3: Zipheir: I picked you almost randomly ;)
2018-07-04T18:43:23Z amz3: Zipheir: I am amirouche@hypermove net
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2018-07-04T23:54:23Z dunnousernamefn: Is there a standard way to make a vector with the elements between two indexes of another vector?
2018-07-04T23:54:46Z dunnousernamefn: e.g. cut indexes 1 to 3 for a vector of length 10
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2018-07-05T00:31:27Z mazeto: I want to make an rs flip flop in scheme, but the output of one nand-gate is the input of the other, and vice versa. Is there a way to do that in s-expressions? asciimatics -> termbin.com/obrg
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2018-07-05T00:35:44Z rain1: n
2018-07-05T00:35:46Z rain1: no
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2018-07-05T00:41:12Z mazeto: oh, hi rain1.
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2018-07-05T00:41:27Z mazeto: I think it is possible with some kind of loop.
2018-07-05T00:42:05Z mazeto: the Y combinator, or the mockingbird combinator. But I'm not familiar with them.
2018-07-05T00:42:20Z mazeto: ↑ lambda calculus stuff, BTW.
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2018-07-05T01:05:54Z rain1: you cant do it on booleans because scheme is strict, you could maybe implement it on streams that represent signals though.  (letrec ((b (nand s a)) (a (nand b r)) ..)
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2018-07-05T04:53:02Z ecraven: dunnousernamefn: r7rs has (vector-copy vector start-index end-index)
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2018-07-05T12:11:07Z amz3: jcowan_: I read https://bitbucket.org/cowan/r7rs-wg1-infra/src/default/JsoCowan.md
2018-07-05T12:11:34Z amz3: I am not sure what's the purpose of this. Is it a way to support a prototype inheritance data structure?
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2018-07-05T12:14:55Z ecraven: jcowan_: could you be persuaded to add bytevector-u16-ref and friends to srfi-160?
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2018-07-05T12:30:37Z jcowan_: amz3: Yes
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2018-07-05T16:13:55Z jcowan_: ecraven: I'm going to propose (rnrs bytevectors) as directly part of R7RS-large, rather than merging it into an already elephantine SRFI.
2018-07-05T16:14:42Z jcowan_: It isn't exactly the way I would have done it, perhaps, but I think it is good enough.
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2018-07-05T16:24:43Z jcowan_: Larceny provides an essentially portable implementation
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2018-07-05T16:36:38Z ecraven: great! does the parameter convention in (rnrs bytevectors) match r7rs and recent srfis? they seem to sometimes have differing conventions in r6s
2018-07-05T16:46:13Z ecraven: jcowan_: do you also want to keep the -native procedures? seems a bit too much to me
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2018-07-05T16:51:16Z jcowan_: I think they are very important, as they can be implemented very efficiently
2018-07-05T16:51:40Z jcowan_: The endianness macro is kind of stupid (in fact, Larceny deprecates it), but I can't just rip it out.
2018-07-05T16:52:23Z jcowan_: What I'll do is make SRFI 160 expose the implementation without documenting it, as it does with SRFI 4
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2018-07-05T16:55:56Z ecraven: why can't you rip it out?
2018-07-05T16:56:12Z ecraven: I mean, why not just propose a slightly modified version of (rnrs bytevectors) as an srfi?
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2018-07-06T03:20:21Z Zipheir: rudybot: botsnack
2018-07-06T03:20:22Z rudybot: thank you!
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2018-07-06T16:27:43Z fmsbeekmans: Hi I'm thinking about starting a little book club with my collegues for books that I have been interested for some time. Namely The little Schemer and SICP. Would the former be interesting experienced functional developers? Is it worth doing both in that order or would it be more fun to only do SICP or is the dive too deep??
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2018-07-06T16:34:11Z wasamasa: one doesn't learn to program by merely reading books
2018-07-06T16:44:43Z fmsbeekmans: wasamasa: Sure, thought it would be a nice extra curricular activity. These are books that have been on the backlog and I was wondering about ordering.
2018-07-06T16:46:11Z cmaloney: I think it's a neat idea; kind of like a study group
2018-07-06T16:46:46Z cmaloney: SICP is also available online so it could be easily done by folks who are interested
2018-07-06T16:47:08Z cmaloney: and it gives flks an added incentive to work on the problems
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2018-07-06T16:48:50Z fmsbeekmans: cmaloney: Yeah, I've watched some of the lectures and found them inspiring at the time. Never gone through the book.
2018-07-06T16:50:16Z fmsbeekmans: Do you have experience with either?
2018-07-06T16:51:31Z Zipheir: fmsbeekmans: The Little Schemer might be a good one to start with, since it's not as dense as SICP. Not a terrible idea to weed out the people who aren't serious. :)
2018-07-06T16:51:58Z pjb: :-)
2018-07-06T16:52:28Z pjb: And you can't go wrong with a book that includes pauses with marmelad and peanut-butter sandwiches.
2018-07-06T16:53:10Z fmsbeekmans: Zipheir: Actually, skimming through the TOC of the little schemer it seems a bit light until the last 2 chapters, was afraid we might loose momentum that way.
2018-07-06T16:53:48Z Zipheir: fmsbeekmans: I thought that too, but it's deceptive.
2018-07-06T16:53:57Z pjb: fmsbeekmans: it's true that it adopts a style of teaching that was in vogue in the 70s, step by step, with a lot of questions to be answered by the reader.
2018-07-06T16:54:29Z pjb: In that time, you often had to learn programming WITHOUT a computer, so it wasn't a bad way.
2018-07-06T16:54:59Z fmsbeekmans: pjb: Ah that's a good point.
2018-07-06T16:55:05Z pjb: But it's still fun to read, even with a computer to do the exercises.  Just try to read it before becoming an expect in recursion and list processing :-)
2018-07-06T16:55:21Z pjb: s/an expect/a expert/
2018-07-06T16:55:25Z Zipheir: Well, the point of the book is supposedly 'to teach you to think recursively', in which case it's _still_ not a bad way.
2018-07-06T16:55:32Z pjb: Yes.
2018-07-06T16:56:24Z fmsbeekmans: Zipheir: True, but most of the target audience are professional scala developers.
2018-07-06T16:56:34Z pjb: There are also the more advanced The Seasonned Schemer and The Reasonned Schemer, but I don't know them.  Actually, I even read it when it was still called The Little Lisper, and was actually a bound polycopy…
2018-07-06T16:56:43Z Zipheir: fmsbeekmans: Ah. This is an AFK group?
2018-07-06T16:57:06Z fmsbeekmans: Zipheir: What does AFK stand for?
2018-07-06T16:57:12Z pjb: Away From Keyboard?
2018-07-06T16:57:18Z Zipheir: Yup
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2018-07-06T16:58:13Z Zipheir: fmsbeekmans: I mean, you want to get a bunch of people together in person to read stuff?
2018-07-06T16:58:58Z fmsbeekmans: Zipheir: Aaah I see. Read on your own time and do/discuss exercises together
2018-07-06T16:59:17Z fmsbeekmans: I thought you meant #scheme was inactive :O
2018-07-06T17:00:27Z Zipheir: fmsbeekmans: Actually, I was curious how you were thinking of getting people to join. I was thinking of doing something similar, but not sure how to, um, recruit.
2018-07-06T17:01:29Z fmsbeekmans: I was pondering that too and after some discussion I decided that I will recruit people at our bi-weekly internal tech talks
2018-07-06T17:01:40Z ecraven: I've never really warmed to that Question and Answer format, none of those books clicks with me. so ymmv
2018-07-06T17:01:53Z qu1j0t3: doesn't work for me either, basically :)
2018-07-06T17:02:30Z ecraven: I very much preferred SICP or LISP
2018-07-06T17:02:31Z Zipheir: fmsbeekmans: That sounds ideal.
2018-07-06T17:02:54Z fmsbeekmans: Yeah, we're quite lucky to have something like that.
2018-07-06T17:03:43Z Zipheir: ecraven: I think it works pretty well in Little & Seasoned, but The Reasoned Schemer should have just been prose.
2018-07-06T17:04:07Z fmsbeekmans: I asked someone who did something similar for a scala book, this one https://www.manning.com/books/functional-programming-in-scala but there are slack channels where this would more easily be picked up here.
2018-07-06T17:04:36Z Zipheir: Meh, slack.
2018-07-06T17:04:48Z fmsbeekmans: Yeah, far from ideal.
2018-07-06T17:05:04Z ecraven: Zipheir: I already knew Scheme when reading them, that might have been an issue too, not sure why, but I really never found them very good myself
2018-07-06T17:07:48Z Zipheir: ecraven: They're ... an acquired taste. I found a review that described them as "being written for the 7-year old grad student." :-)
2018-07-06T17:08:13Z ecraven: don't get me wrong, they just aren't my cup of tea
2018-07-06T17:08:51Z ecraven: but then I've met some who really dislike SICP, which I love, so de gustibus non est disputandum ;)
2018-07-06T17:09:36Z Zipheir: fmsbeekmans: Actually, if #scheme were more active, it would be cool to have a channel reading club.
2018-07-06T17:09:43Z wasamasa: I think we can all agree that just reading SICP like a non-programming book won't lead to much
2018-07-06T17:09:43Z Zipheir: #scheme-books, maybe?
2018-07-06T17:09:55Z wasamasa: if you're going to have a book club, discuss your own solutions to the exercises
2018-07-06T17:10:42Z Zipheir reads SICP as an Alan Moore graphic novel.
2018-07-06T17:10:48Z ecraven: wasamasa: well, you might still remember useful bits and pieces ;)
2018-07-06T17:11:29Z wasamasa: I've been in such a study group which mostly fell apart after the first chapter, with the second one leaving me as the last one standing
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2018-07-06T17:11:57Z Zipheir: wasamasa: Yeah, that sounds familiar.
2018-07-06T17:12:25Z wasamasa: if you don't require people to complete exercises, more might stay but there's nothing worthwhile discussing
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2018-07-06T17:13:01Z wasamasa: programming is best learned by explaining the concepts to a five year old aka punching a working program into your computer
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2018-07-06T17:18:38Z Zipheir: wasamasa: It's sort of like learning music: too much theory and people just lose interest, too much playing-by-ear and you get cargo-cult thinking.
2018-07-06T17:20:50Z wasamasa: cargo-cult thinking in music??
2018-07-06T17:25:18Z Zipheir: Sure. I guess it's not as obvious as in programming, but it certainly exists.
2018-07-06T17:25:46Z wasamasa: curse your golden ears
2018-07-06T17:27:31Z Zipheir: Classical singers usually win the cargo-cult prize. "Why are you drinking raspberry snapple on your back on the piano bench?" "Because if I don't my vocal cords will EXPLODE."
2018-07-06T17:30:00Z Zipheir: Anyway, scheme. Speaking of the Little books, has anyone used minikanren in a project (i.e. for something other than completing exercises in The Reasoned Schemer)?
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2018-07-06T18:03:26Z jcowan: #scheme is pretty active, I think; certainly it would be an appropriate place for book-club chat
2018-07-06T18:03:47Z jcowan: if the traffic from that became *overpowering* (which I doubt) then it would be time to talk another channel
2018-07-06T18:03:56Z jcowan: proliferating little-used channels doesn't make much sense
2018-07-06T18:04:11Z jcowan: active, that is, relative to the number of Schemers
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2018-07-06T18:12:48Z Zipheir: jcowan: Indeed.
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2018-07-06T20:17:19Z black_13: is there a standard scheme command to print to the console?
2018-07-06T20:17:47Z ecraven: `display' or `write' should work
2018-07-06T20:18:13Z pjb: or just type the expression, since the REPL includes a PRINT feature in it.
2018-07-06T20:18:20Z pjb: REPL = read eval PRINT loop.
2018-07-06T20:18:32Z pjb: (unless you mean something else by "console").
2018-07-06T20:18:52Z black_13: I am embedding chibi-scheme into C/C++ and want to cout some variables to the console
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2018-07-06T20:19:15Z ecraven: black_13: display and newline, or chibi-specific things (fmt probably)
2018-07-06T20:19:49Z pjb: black_13: theorically display or write should do. However, you may encounter buffering difficulties, since obviously scheme and C++ will have each their own buffers before the stdout file descriptor.
2018-07-06T20:20:10Z black_13: thanks to both
2018-07-06T20:20:27Z pjb: black_13: ie. be sure to flush before making a foreign call or returning frmo a foreign call.
2018-07-06T20:20:42Z black_13: ok
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2018-07-07T21:43:31Z amirouche: what's the average size of paper for Scheme conference?
2018-07-07T21:43:42Z amirouche: what's the average size of _a_ paper for Scheme conference?
2018-07-07T22:06:58Z gwatt: was going to say, 8½x11
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2018-07-07T23:03:33Z Zipheir: "If you can't fit it on a 3x5 index card, try harder."
2018-07-07T23:03:51Z Zipheir: ^^ Dan Friedman's philosophy, according to Will Byrd
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2018-07-08T00:07:03Z jcowan: amirouche: less than 10 pages
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2018-07-08T18:35:34Z brendyn: hashtags in r8rs? get with the times!
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2018-07-08T19:01:38Z jcowan: You can have R8RS when I'm dead
2018-07-08T19:04:29Z deuill: Is that before or after Scheme becomes self-aware?
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2018-07-08T21:44:28Z amirouche: hey
2018-07-08T21:44:39Z amirouche: I could not make a even 5 page
2018-07-08T21:44:57Z amirouche: it seems like it will be for next year
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2018-07-08T22:13:05Z Zipheir: woo, scsh process notation ftw. Kills the bourne shell dead.
2018-07-08T22:25:22Z jcowan: yesss
2018-07-08T22:25:53Z jcowan: it would be a Good THing to make a SRFI that depends on a Posix SRFI (which I have a plan for)
2018-07-08T22:26:23Z jcowan: the only issue would be the fd-swtiching logic, which most Schemes don't support
2018-07-08T22:27:56Z Zipheir: Right. Olin wrote something to the effect of 'port/fd mapping--aye, there's the rub.'
2018-07-08T22:31:23Z Zipheir: I guess no-one ever wrote an SRFI because it's so POSIX-specific?
2018-07-08T22:32:55Z Zipheir: Well, duh. Obviously.
2018-07-08T22:33:27Z jcowan: I don't think that's the real problem, it's just that no one has cared enough
2018-07-08T22:34:07Z jcowan: for a long time scsh ran only on an obsolete version of Scheme48 and nowhere else, although it's been upgraded to the latest Scheme48, nobody has successfully ported it that I know of
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2018-07-08T23:33:19Z Zipheir: It's unfortunate. I think scsh and some other projects were part of a general early-90s Lisper revolt against the Unix menace that, sadly, died out.
2018-07-08T23:35:54Z Zipheir: I guess the factions are friends now, but we're stuck with a lot of Unix cruft that should have been killed decades ago.
2018-07-08T23:39:57Z qu1j0t3: I guess Erik Naggum would have been among that "Lisper revolt". And yeah, literally died. :/
2018-07-08T23:43:08Z Zipheir: Yeah
2018-07-08T23:44:00Z Zipheir: Maybe if the people who wrote the Unix Hater's Handbook had done something more productive with their time...
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2018-07-08T23:47:03Z amirouche: I wrote 3 pages woohoo
2018-07-08T23:52:17Z Zipheir: amirouche: What on?
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2018-07-09T11:55:10Z loginoob: Has anyone here read SICP
2018-07-09T12:06:44Z deuill: I'd be surprised if the answer was no. I'm currently reading through it myself.
2018-07-09T12:12:39Z loginoob: deuill would you say it's heavy on maths
2018-07-09T12:12:56Z loginoob: If my maths is weak would be able to get through it?
2018-07-09T12:13:18Z deuill: There's some basic background needed, but nothing *too* crazy. You should be fine, I suck at maths too.
2018-07-09T12:14:15Z deuill: AFAICT the book doesn't really assume anything about the reader's background, but of course it helps if you have parallels to draw.
2018-07-09T12:15:02Z deuill: Just make sure to find the time to do the exercises, those are definitely the meat of the book.
2018-07-09T12:20:08Z loginoob: Ok
2018-07-09T12:22:32Z deuill: It's a great book even beyond learning Scheme, good choice!
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2018-07-09T12:30:46Z schweers: Using gauche scheme, I want to export the setter of a class slot from a module.  How can I do this?  The setter does not seem to have a regular symbol as a name.  I currently get this sort of error message (due to the missing export): "no applicable method for #<generic |setter of base-slot| (1)> with arguments (#<<base> 0x55843bee7870> 10)"
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2018-07-09T12:42:14Z ecraven: now SICM, *that* is definitely not easy on maths
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2018-07-09T13:18:02Z deuill: Turns out meatspace has a lot more interactions and constraints than the shiny box I'm looking into
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2018-07-10T08:55:57Z amz3: \o/ the CfP is prolonged to 23 July which leaves me plenty of time to write a good paper
2018-07-10T08:56:08Z amz3: https://brinckerhoff.org/scheme2018/
2018-07-10T08:56:16Z amz3: except IRL events
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2018-07-10T10:10:53Z ManDay[m]: Doesn't Scheme's guarantee of ordering and eager evaluation have profound impact on performance? I.e., absent knowledge of potential side effects (and I assume it simply does not determine those dynamicalyl), nothing can be done in parallel?
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2018-07-10T12:13:26Z ManDay[m]: Hm, is my IRC/matrix broken or is everyone quiet?
2018-07-10T12:23:16Z rk4: everyone is quiet.
2018-07-10T12:24:03Z rk4: i'm quiet because call/cc is consuming both of my IQ points to grasp
2018-07-10T12:24:16Z ManDay[m]: Ah good. Better have no one to talk to than being chronically mute
2018-07-10T12:25:27Z ManDay[m]: In a theoretical way or in a practical application?
2018-07-10T12:25:27Z ManDay[m]: (call/cc)
2018-07-10T12:26:14Z ManDay[m]: Oh, I suppose you don't have any IQ left to talk right now, sorry!
2018-07-10T12:26:26Z rk4: in a theoretical way, it is not a construct i have encountered before
2018-07-10T12:27:38Z ManDay[m]: I've never understood people's obsession with formalities :-P From my naive point of view call/cc is as simple as "go back in time" and that's it.
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2018-07-10T12:30:40Z ManDay[m]: (also, it allows me to invest my IQ point on the actual algorithm, rather than formal semantics)
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2018-07-10T13:09:52Z ventonegro: Formalities are what separate Scheme from PHP
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2018-07-10T13:17:44Z jcowan_: ventonegro: PHP is just as formal, it's just that nobody knows what the formalism is because it's too complicated
2018-07-10T13:18:48Z ventonegro: jcowan_: If a tree falls in the forest...
2018-07-10T13:28:40Z ManDay[m]: it just depends on what kind of formalism you want. a formal syntax def/regular definition and some prose explaining what means what is just as good
2018-07-10T13:29:43Z ManDay[m]: surely, the way the language is defined, be it in prose or more rigorously is NOT what separates scheme from php...
2018-07-10T13:30:12Z ManDay[m]: at least there are some more fundamental differences, unless I've forgotten all about php
2018-07-10T13:30:42Z ManDay[m]: and formalizing what call/cc does and grasping the formalism doesn't help you one inch in using it or writing better algorithms, i'd argue
2018-07-10T13:31:41Z ventonegro: Helps much more than 1 inch
2018-07-10T13:32:19Z ventonegro: Reading the denotational semantics of call/cc made it much clearer to me
2018-07-10T13:33:50Z ventonegro: And it's not difficult, Lisp in Small Pieces has a nice primer on denotational semantics
2018-07-10T13:33:54Z ManDay[m]: if you think your opinion/experience in that matter has any claim for universality: how, would you say, is my "go back in time (keeping the side effects, ofc)" understanding of it inadequate?
2018-07-10T13:34:19Z ManDay[m]: personally, I have absolutely no urge to formalize that notion of mine
2018-07-10T13:36:04Z ManDay[m]: or rather, in which case would "go back in time" not give an adequate intuitive understanding of its purpose
2018-07-10T13:36:22Z ventonegro: Well, convincing you or not of this has a zero chance of impacting my life in any meaningful way. You can of course just ignore everything I said
2018-07-10T13:36:38Z ventonegro: And I will go back to work
2018-07-10T13:37:21Z ManDay[m]: i'm not ignoring it, I'm just stating it's merely a personal opinion (of you and me, equally) so far
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2018-07-10T13:58:33Z ventonegro: Sorry, that was unnecessarily harsh
2018-07-10T14:02:17Z ManDay[m]: Measured by real life standards, yes :-P
2018-07-10T14:02:29Z ManDay[m]: (no offense taken ;) )
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2018-07-10T15:11:21Z deuill: To be fair, PHP the language and PHP the runtime are getting better/more formalized lately. They're even doing trampolining/tail call elimination these days. Took 20 years or so.
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2018-07-10T15:16:50Z deuill: Or, in other words, given enough thrust, even a brick will fly.
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2018-07-11T13:06:32Z amz31: ManDay[m]: call/cc is not go back in time, but it can only go back where it's already been
2018-07-11T13:07:22Z amz31: because when you call the continuation given by call/cc you don't revert to previous values that were mutated meanwhile
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2018-07-12T09:35:27Z amz31: o/
2018-07-12T09:36:36Z ManDay[m]: amz31: yes, side-effects... aside, that was.
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2018-07-13T07:33:44Z trui: oops. going through SICP and i already cheated
2018-07-13T07:34:12Z trui: by using something that technically wasnt covered yet
2018-07-13T07:35:29Z trui: trying to do the problems by only using what's been introduced is fun
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2018-07-13T10:19:15Z ejt: hi, I'm looking for an OO library for scheme that includes multimethods.  Is there a popular one?
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2018-07-13T10:50:47Z ecraven: there's a bunch of object systems. most Schemes come with at least one.. tiny-clos is supposed to be portable
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2018-07-13T10:58:16Z ejt: ecraven: thx
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2018-07-13T12:47:57Z amz31: ecraven: any updates regarding the chez http parser?
2018-07-13T12:50:46Z ecraven: amz31: sorry, not yet, haven't had time
2018-07-13T12:50:55Z ecraven: and I'll be gone for a week next week. but after that, I promise!
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2018-07-13T14:15:25Z black_13: is this the ocrrect place to ask about racket?
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2018-07-13T14:17:05Z X-Scale: black_13: there's also #racket
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2018-07-13T14:18:05Z black_13: ah!
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2018-07-13T21:43:03Z black_13: can chez scheme be built using visual studio
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2018-07-13T22:04:48Z gwatt: Probably not
2018-07-13T22:05:05Z gwatt: You still need bash and gnu make, even on windows
2018-07-13T22:05:32Z gwatt: But it does use the microsoft c compiler
2018-07-13T22:06:22Z wasamasa: black_13: why would you want to do that?
2018-07-13T22:08:10Z black_13: you know this grows to be a tiring response
2018-07-13T22:08:25Z black_13: I used windows and have an application that runs on windows
2018-07-13T22:08:30Z black_13: i get paid to do that
2018-07-13T22:08:56Z black_13: i want to embed lisp into that application for my employer so they can produce a result
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2018-07-13T22:10:02Z gwatt: Do you want to generate a standalone scheme executable?
2018-07-13T22:10:51Z black_13: no
2018-07-13T22:11:54Z wasamasa: there are better lisps for that purpose, like tinyscheme
2018-07-13T22:12:11Z wasamasa: it has been used by a malware author
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2018-07-13T22:12:58Z gwatt: wasamasa: on the one hand that's cool, but on the other hand that's a weird thing to use as a bonus
2018-07-13T22:13:27Z wasamasa: well, that's anecdata in favor of windows support
2018-07-13T22:14:29Z black_13: I was looking at tinyscheme
2018-07-13T22:14:35Z gwatt: black_13: Chez is not the best at embedding, but probably the easiest thing to do would be to distribute the dlls/bootfiles from the pre-built ChezScheme
2018-07-13T22:15:04Z gwatt: https://github.com/cisco/ChezScheme/releases/download/v9.5/ChezScheme9.5.exe
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2018-07-13T22:21:52Z black_13: thanks
2018-07-13T22:22:01Z black_13: interesting would this compile with visual studio
2018-07-13T22:22:26Z black_13: that is it install and there is an example repl project
2018-07-13T22:22:37Z amz3: why do you want to use chez in particular?
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2018-07-13T22:23:04Z amz3 curious
2018-07-13T22:23:14Z black_13: I am agnostic
2018-07-13T22:23:18Z black_13: dont care
2018-07-13T22:23:42Z amz3: then people said above that tinyscheme is easier to embed you should prototype with that
2018-07-13T22:23:44Z amz3: I think
2018-07-13T22:23:48Z black_13: i could use something else 1. i would prefer open source 2. i would prefer visual studio
2018-07-13T22:23:54Z black_13: i was looking at that
2018-07-13T22:25:21Z black_13: also https://software-lab.de/down.html
2018-07-13T22:25:27Z black_13: a lisp
2018-07-13T22:25:49Z amz3: well lisp is more difficult to learn that scheme
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2018-07-13T22:28:19Z black_13: they seem the same
2018-07-13T22:29:20Z black_13: this is the probably because i dont really know what I am doing
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2018-07-13T22:37:44Z Zipheir`: wasamasa: ZING
2018-07-13T22:38:23Z wasamasa: yes?
2018-07-13T22:38:46Z Zipheir`: wasamasa: Oh, your malware comment.
2018-07-13T22:42:01Z wasamasa: I don't see how picolisp makes embedding easier
2018-07-13T22:42:08Z wasamasa: the 64bit variant is written in assembly
2018-07-13T22:52:05Z aeth: Common Lisp is more difficult to learn in its entirety than r5rs or r7rs Scheme, but that's not a fair comparison. In any language, what you're going to be doing is looking up lots of API, e.g. Racket's documentation or something.
2018-07-13T22:52:22Z aeth: All Lisps are about the same difficulty to actually get started with, and most concepts carry over between them.
2018-07-13T22:53:58Z aeth: If you know the key differences (e.g. from CL to Scheme: Scheme is a lisp-1 with tail recursion and call/cc and hygienic macros) then the rest is just things are named differently.
2018-07-13T22:54:26Z aeth: Going between Lisps is probably like going from C# to Java or something.
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2018-07-13T23:01:10Z aeth: (What's very different is how to write code that performs well. Emacs Lisp in particular seems to be way out there.)
2018-07-13T23:01:15Z Zipheir`: aeth: That presupposes a strong overview of Lisp in general.
2018-07-13T23:02:24Z Zipheir`: aeth: It takes a hefty amount of abstraction to see the common elements of different languages. Some people would be pretty scared of going from C# to Java :)
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2018-07-14T20:25:56Z brontosaurusrex: I'd like to follow this book https://mitpress.mit.edu/sites/default/files/sicp/full-text/book/book-Z-H-10.html#%_sec_1.1.2 on Debian stretch, what would i install?
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2018-07-14T20:26:37Z brontosaurusrex: They say it's 'Scheme dialect of lisp'
2018-07-14T20:27:00Z wasamasa: mit-scheme
2018-07-14T20:27:06Z pjb: yes, mit-scheme.
2018-07-14T20:27:31Z wasamasa: scheme comes in many implementations, this one's been created at the same university the SICP course was taught at
2018-07-14T20:27:37Z pjb: mit-scheme comes with a nice emacs-like, named edwin.
2018-07-14T20:28:06Z brontosaurusrex: Thanks, let me try ...
2018-07-14T20:29:27Z pjb: That said, the language doesn't matter. Some do the exercises in CL, some in C++, some even in python…
2018-07-14T20:30:45Z brontosaurusrex: pjb: who?
2018-07-14T20:31:32Z pjb: Eliben.
2018-07-14T20:31:50Z pjb: But his blog is deleted now, where he had all the solutions in CL.
2018-07-14T20:31:55Z pjb: http://community.schemewiki.org/?SICP-Solutions
2018-07-14T20:32:29Z brontosaurusrex: I also found something called 'racket', seems to work so far
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2018-07-14T20:33:01Z pjb: With racket, you have to specify that you want the sicp language. Otherwise there are incompatibilities.
2018-07-14T20:33:25Z wasamasa: racket implements scheme among many languages
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2018-07-14T20:33:47Z pjb: various schemes.
2018-07-14T20:33:49Z brontosaurusrex: ok, https://paste.debian.net/plain/1033722
2018-07-14T20:33:51Z nisstyre: GNU/MIT Scheme is pretty lacking in features though, I'd say don't use it
2018-07-14T20:34:00Z nisstyre: GNU Guile is alright though
2018-07-14T20:34:17Z nisstyre: you should be fine getting through most of SICP with it
2018-07-14T20:34:33Z brontosaurusrex: Guile?
2018-07-14T20:34:35Z nisstyre: yes
2018-07-14T20:34:39Z nisstyre: it's a Scheme
2018-07-14T20:34:45Z nisstyre: GNU/MIT Scheme is another one
2018-07-14T20:34:50Z nisstyre: Racket has multiple ones
2018-07-14T20:35:01Z nisstyre: welcome to the world of lisp :p
2018-07-14T20:35:04Z wasamasa: nisstyre: that's completely irrelevant for completing SICP
2018-07-14T20:35:24Z nisstyre: wasamasa: yeah but what if they want to take code they wrote for SICP and actually make use of it or expand it?
2018-07-14T20:35:43Z nisstyre: I don't see the point in using it when there are good production ready Schemes
2018-07-14T20:35:46Z Zipheir`: Yeah, SICP includes implementations of most of the procedures it uses
2018-07-14T20:36:13Z wasamasa: nisstyre: how dare people not use your favorite scheme implementation!
2018-07-14T20:36:32Z wasamasa: and lol, production ready
2018-07-14T20:36:43Z Zipheir`: nisstyre: OTOH, all those features can be confusing if you're just following along with a book
2018-07-14T20:36:45Z brontosaurusrex: Well, racket seems to have a decent interactive shell
2018-07-14T20:36:49Z wasamasa: if that were all that mattered, we'd be still using mainframes
2018-07-14T20:36:50Z nisstyre: wasamasa: I'm just saying that if you learn MIT/GNU Scheme you will never be able to use it again for real projects
2018-07-14T20:36:57Z nisstyre: whereas Guile or Racket will be useful again
2018-07-14T20:37:00Z ecraven: Nisstyre: have you actually *used* mit?
2018-07-14T20:37:09Z nisstyre: ecraven: yes, a long time ago
2018-07-14T20:37:16Z wasamasa: nisstyre: which again is completely irrelevant for following along with SICP
2018-07-14T20:37:23Z ecraven: What exactly is lacking?
2018-07-14T20:37:47Z wasamasa: racing fins
2018-07-14T20:37:50Z nisstyre: does it have a good system for doing concurrency built in?
2018-07-14T20:38:01Z wasamasa: m(
2018-07-14T20:38:12Z ecraven: I've used mit for commercial projects, it does quite fine.
2018-07-14T20:38:24Z wasamasa: by that definition you'd be excluding CHICKEN which is clearly production ready
2018-07-14T20:38:43Z nisstyre: I didn't mention Chicken because I haven't used it but it's probably good too
2018-07-14T20:38:47Z ecraven: There are better schemes for some purposes, but you can do a lot worse (and not a lot better :)
2018-07-14T20:39:49Z ecraven: Nisstyre: mit has green threads, which chez for example doesn't have
2018-07-14T20:40:23Z nisstyre: and Racket has mailboxes, channels, threads, places, distributed places, etc
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2018-07-14T20:40:54Z Zipheir`: Ugh, the original question was 'what's a good scheme for SICP', not 'which scheme is best scheme'
2018-07-14T20:41:34Z nisstyre: I'm saying Guile is fine for SICP *and* you get to use it again in other places
2018-07-14T20:42:10Z ecraven: I'd say the only perfect scheme for sicp is racket, because it has the exact mode you want for siop
2018-07-14T20:42:35Z ecraven: Even mit scheme has evolved and sicp code won't run without changes
2018-07-14T20:43:09Z Zipheir`: Making the code work is sometimes a good learning experience
2018-07-14T20:44:32Z brontosaurusrex: Are forth and this scheme list somehow related?
2018-07-14T20:44:37Z brontosaurusrex: lips*
2018-07-14T20:44:46Z nisstyre: not really
2018-07-14T20:44:59Z nisstyre: but there is a language called "Reverse Polish Lisp", but it's honestly more similar to Forth than Lisp
2018-07-14T20:45:00Z wasamasa: brontosaurusrex: their only relation is fervent fans
2018-07-14T20:45:34Z nisstyre: also RPL is only useful if you own an HP graphing calculator
2018-07-14T20:46:19Z brontosaurusrex: so (+ 2 2 2) has nothing to do with polish notation?
2018-07-14T20:46:47Z nisstyre: brontosaurusrex: what do you mean? It is polish notation
2018-07-14T20:46:53Z brontosaurusrex: ok
2018-07-14T20:47:22Z nisstyre: you could just call it "prefix notation" too
2018-07-14T20:47:30Z Zipheir`: Heh, RPL looks like a fun embedding project
2018-07-14T20:47:36Z nisstyre: and then "infix notation" is what you use when you write down math expressions usually
2018-07-14T20:47:53Z pjb: nisstyre: no, it is not polish notation.
2018-07-14T20:48:05Z pjb: In polish notation all the operators have a fixed arity.
2018-07-14T20:48:40Z pjb: sum '(2 2 2 2) could be deemed polish notation. But not (+ 2 2 2).
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2018-07-14T20:49:16Z nisstyre: Zipheir`: I think RPL is very similar to Factor
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2018-07-14T20:49:28Z deuill: And also, Polish notation and Forth essentially operate on a stack.
2018-07-14T20:49:31Z nisstyre: but with fewer fancy features because it runs on a tiny calculator
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2018-07-14T20:52:36Z brontosaurusrex: So 'compound procedures' has nothing to do with the idea of functional constructs, they are like functions calling other functions right?
2018-07-14T20:53:13Z brontosaurusrex: this https://mitpress.mit.edu/sites/default/files/sicp/full-text/book/book-Z-H-10.html#%_sec_1.1.4
2018-07-14T20:54:03Z wasamasa: reads more like user-defined procedure to me
2018-07-14T20:54:27Z Zipheir`: brontosaurusrex: Procedures composed from other procedures/special forms?
2018-07-14T20:54:40Z Zipheir`: brontosaurusrex: Not sure what you mean by functional construct.
2018-07-14T20:58:16Z brontosaurusrex: Yeah, I'll try to refraze the question when i get smarter.
2018-07-14T20:59:32Z Zipheir`: brontosaurusrex: SICP's mantra is 'primitives, combination, abstraction'. Broadly, 'compound procedure' is the main form of abstraction in SICP's view of scheme.
2018-07-14T21:00:03Z brontosaurusrex: Zipheir`: ok
2018-07-14T21:00:07Z brontosaurusrex: I like https://paste.debian.net/plain/1033724
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2018-07-14T21:01:05Z Zipheir`: Something like, +: primitive, combination: (+ (+ 2 3) 1), abstraction: (define (sum-three x y z) (+ (x y) z))
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2018-07-14T21:02:47Z Zipheir`: (and yes, I know + is variadic)
2018-07-14T21:03:54Z Zipheir`: brontosaurusrex: OK, that's abs. Is there something special about that?
2018-07-14T21:04:20Z brontosaurusrex: Nope, i just like the construct
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2018-07-14T21:04:55Z Zipheir`: brontosaurusrex: Good, because it's a super common structure in Lisp code. :)
2018-07-14T21:05:18Z deuill: The concepts aren't really unique to Scheme or Lisp, though, right? Not even back in the 70s.
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2018-07-14T21:05:19Z brontosaurusrex: so #f and #t are some sort of false, true?
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2018-07-14T21:06:16Z Zipheir`: brontosaurusrex: In a boolean context, everything except #f is true.
2018-07-14T21:06:51Z brontosaurusrex: So this is bool (= 2 2) ?
2018-07-14T21:07:13Z Zipheir`: rudybot: (= 2 2)
2018-07-14T21:07:18Z rudybot: Zipheir`: your sandbox is ready
2018-07-14T21:07:18Z rudybot: Zipheir`: ; Value: #t
2018-07-14T21:07:30Z Zipheir`: brontosaurusrex: ^^
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2018-07-14T21:27:39Z brontosaurusrex: mkay, complete fail at assignement 1, lmao
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2018-07-14T22:14:19Z Zipheir`: rudybot: botsnack
2018-07-14T22:14:19Z rudybot: A légpárnás tele van angolnák.
2018-07-14T22:14:57Z Zipheir`: hungarian?
2018-07-14T22:21:18Z qu1j0t3: Zipheir`: yes, apparently: https://ca.answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20110503125824AAAKyBB
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2018-07-15T00:50:59Z erkin: How can I make a consumer for a procedure that already returns multiple values?
2018-07-15T00:52:57Z erkin: Ah, wrapping it around (lambda () ...) and placing it as the producer of (call-with-values ...) does the trick.
2018-07-15T00:53:51Z Zipheir`: erkin: A lot of schemes implement receive, which some people prefer
2018-07-15T00:54:25Z erkin: CHICKEN doesn't seem to have it.
2018-07-15T00:54:31Z Zipheir`: Sure it does
2018-07-15T00:55:18Z Zipheir`: erkin: https://wiki.call-cc.org/man/5/Module%20(chicken%20base)#receive
2018-07-15T00:55:35Z erkin: Ah, indeed it does.
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2018-07-15T20:44:27Z deuill: Stupid question perhaps: does anyone have any good text editors to recommend for Android? Preferably ones with good support for Scheme.
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2018-07-15T21:15:50Z deuill: DroidEdit seems good, but actual Scheme implementations are far and apart
2018-07-15T21:16:58Z wasamasa: I'd expect there to be something wrapping kawa
2018-07-15T21:25:32Z deuill: Not according to a quick search. Apparently Chez can be compiled, though
2018-07-15T21:31:16Z deuill: Uh that wasn't supposed to sound dismissive, apologies
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2018-07-15T22:13:46Z f8l: I can recommend Emacs.
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2018-07-15T22:25:52Z gwatt: deuill: chez will work on arm32. if you have an arm64 phone then you'll need a compat32 layer or a different scheme
2018-07-15T22:29:23Z f8l: I can see only tinyscheme in Termux repository.
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2018-07-15T22:32:51Z deuill: gwatt, thanks! I'm trying to cross-compile Chez and see how that goes
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2018-07-15T22:33:57Z deuill: Otherwise, may fall back to TinyScheme...
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2018-07-16T03:37:48Z Zipheir`: Curiousity: Does Clojure, that gem of Lisp NIH-ism, fall closer to Scheme or CL?
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2018-07-16T04:25:37Z epony: Zipheir` https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clojure#History_and_development_process
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2018-07-16T04:28:31Z aeth: Zipheir`: From what I've seen about Clojure, CL and Scheme are closer to each other than either is to Clojure.
2018-07-16T04:28:58Z Zipheir`: Hmm, interesting.
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2018-07-16T04:32:41Z Zipheir`: Interesting that Hickey started out trying to build interfaces between CL and Java, then turned around and invented a mostly new Lisp dialect. That seems like... multiplying effort.
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2018-07-16T04:42:10Z edgar-rft: Taking into account that Java initially was heavily inspired by Lisp, building then some years later interfaces between Java back to Common Lisp to me feels like a rather senseless effort. Everything would have been much easier if Java just had been spared out and Common Lisp would be used instead.
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2018-07-16T04:45:00Z Zipheir`: Or maybe just compiled CL or (better) Scheme to JVM bytecode.
2018-07-16T04:47:03Z edgar-rft: that would be even weirder nonsense
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2018-07-16T04:48:52Z Zipheir`: It's one way to run a language on a lot of different platforms.
2018-07-16T04:49:10Z Zipheir`: If not exactly a fast or sane way.
2018-07-16T04:51:33Z aeth: JVM bytecode is afaik too opinionated
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2018-07-16T08:33:06Z wasamasa: Zipheir`: there's a talk about the origins of clojure where it's revealed that he wrote CL at his job and yearned for a language without incidental complexity and proper FP support
2018-07-16T08:34:16Z wasamasa: Zipheir`: you don't shoehorn that on CL and starting from scheme won't give you the good parts of CL
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2018-07-16T11:14:22Z mejja: wasamasa, the good parts? :-)
2018-07-16T11:18:03Z mejja: wasamasa, turns out the good part is implementation specific:  https://stackoverflow.com/a/4425726
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2018-07-17T00:45:46Z dTal: well this is an interesting git repository https://github.com/evilbinary/scheme-lib
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2018-07-17T00:59:12Z Zipheir`: Seems to be a GUI library?
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2018-07-17T01:13:56Z dTal: a barely-documented, fully cross-platform all the way from Android to Windows, Chez Scheme wrapper library for everything from OpenGL to OpenAL to box2d
2018-07-17T01:14:02Z dTal: basically pygame for Chez
2018-07-17T01:14:11Z dTal: and the Readme is apparently written in Chinese?
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2018-07-17T01:15:17Z dTal: even has an .apk of Chez you can push to your phone and run scheme scripts embedded in XML
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2018-07-17T01:28:49Z Zipheir`: wow
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2018-07-17T01:34:47Z Zipheir`: And the library's web page just shows a cartoon of a platypus...
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2018-07-17T01:35:05Z Zipheir`: Interesting is definitely the word for this
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2018-07-17T02:08:49Z dTal: Zipheir`: the platypus is Hexley the Darwin mascot
2018-07-17T02:09:20Z dTal: ...the image is labeled 'duck.png' in the archive...
2018-07-17T02:11:35Z Zipheir`: lol
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2018-07-17T10:19:42Z deuill: Yeah, I was looking into the APK for that... I think I'm doubly cautious of running unknown software from someone called 'evilbinary'
2018-07-17T10:20:46Z deuill: But I couldn't find the Scheme binary? Boot files are there, as are some libraries, including one called libscm. Maybe this is more than just a straight build?
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2018-07-17T11:02:33Z deuill: Almost got Chez compiled on Blackberry OS 10 though. Getting a memory error of some sort, but it runs up until some point. Now to debug with printf...
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2018-07-17T11:30:20Z ManDay[m]: dTal: How do you even find things like that?
2018-07-17T11:30:38Z ManDay[m]: (re evilbinary.org)
2018-07-17T11:40:09Z dTal: ManDay[m]: by googling stuff like "Chez Scheme gui" and following through to page 10 :)
2018-07-17T11:40:44Z ManDay[m]: Wow, you must be desperate! :-p
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2018-07-17T11:50:46Z dTal: ManDay[m]: maybe! But following through to page 10 is how you find goodies like that :p
2018-07-17T11:52:20Z ManDay[m]: Sure, I'm not saying you being desperate is a bad thing :p Makes you wonder what oddities you'd find on pages such as 100 or above ^^
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2018-07-17T12:17:01Z dTal: makes you wonder what goes on inside the Chinese free software scene
2018-07-17T12:17:18Z dTal: that never makes it beyond the great firewall
2018-07-17T12:18:11Z gwatt: There's the "scheme widget library" for Chez, though that's old and requires tcl
2018-07-17T12:19:44Z dTal: in the West, no one talented enough to write a library like that would have distributed it in such a maverick way, with multiple copies of binary scheme.exe just scattered about git
2018-07-17T12:20:45Z dTal: or repackaging the world's scheme libraries, just because it uses them
2018-07-17T12:21:54Z dTal: gwatt: all I really want is a simple way to splat pixels on the screen
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2018-07-17T12:26:37Z ManDay[m]: dTal: Re an unknown world of chinese software: Indeed...
2018-07-17T12:27:14Z ManDay[m]: Though I think the way of distributing correlates with the quality and elegance of code, so may be just we're better off without it in the west.
2018-07-17T12:29:09Z dTal: I'll take inelegant code that exists and works over a hundred elegant hypothetical libraries any day
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2018-07-17T13:00:47Z ManDay[m]: Not sure I can so readily agree with this
2018-07-17T13:01:02Z ManDay[m]: Not in the extent in that seems to be inelegant, that is
2018-07-17T13:01:16Z ManDay[m]: *which that
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2018-07-17T16:53:52Z mrm: dTal: So, what you're saying is, hypothetically, if you were offered 100 hypothetically hypothetical libraries for one hypothetically actual library, hypothetically, you wouldn't take the offer?
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2018-07-17T17:51:30Z dTal: mrm: practically speaking yes
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2018-07-18T03:01:27Z tabemann: I'm implementing a Scheme (yes, the perennial Haskell programming language project), and I have some questions about R7RS-small
2018-07-18T03:02:26Z tabemann: for starters, if you have two different (define)s at the top level of the source, can the two necessarily refer to each other recursively
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2018-07-18T03:04:00Z tabemann: because i'm looking at the R7RS-small spec and it seems to not state whether defines always behave like letrec*
2018-07-18T03:04:15Z tabemann: it states that defines act like letrec* within bodies, though
2018-07-18T03:06:38Z Riastradh: They act like letrec* at the top level too.
2018-07-18T03:07:41Z tabemann: thanks
2018-07-18T03:08:39Z Riastradh: Apropos, you might find this amusing: https://mumble.net/~campbell/tmp/Scheme.hs  (I found it more amusing than the unstructured goo in the `Write Yourself a Scheme in 48 Hours' tutorial that just haphazardly throws everything into the IO monad, anyway.)
2018-07-18T03:10:59Z tabemann: I'm using IO because otherwise I'm going to have to keep track of every single bit of multiple state in some data structure
2018-07-18T03:11:21Z tabemann: and considering that things like set-car! and set-cdr! exist...
2018-07-18T03:12:58Z tabemann: unlike 48 hours I'm representing my namespace by using IntMaps, with symbols being represented as Ints, with a symbol table being kept in a StateT but in the actual code tree the textual values of the symbols are stripped away
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2018-07-18T03:15:21Z tabemann: I originally was going to use a linear Seq to represent the namespace, but then I realized I wasn't going to gain any performance advantage over an IntMap, and it would greatly complicate my compilation step (because I'd have to write a whole lot of name-binding logic that would be unnecessary if I represented bound names as interned string indices rather than linear namespace indices)
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2018-07-18T06:26:53Z Riastradh: tabemann: Nothing wrong with using the IO monad for some things.  My objection to the tutorial was that it just tossed everything in the IO monad without using any of Haskell's nice abstractions for organizing concepts.
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2018-07-18T06:47:29Z Zipheir: Riastradh: The "Let's use the IO monad to write cruddy Python" school of Haskell.
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2018-07-18T07:50:27Z siraben: Can there be a Scheme project: "Write you a Haskell in 48 hours"
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2018-07-18T08:36:47Z ManDay[m] is not sure what 'write yourself an X in Y hours" is to imply in the first place
2018-07-18T08:37:23Z ManDay[m]: Does is compliment on the beauty and simplicity of X?
2018-07-18T08:37:48Z ManDay[m]: If so, I readily understand why "Write yourself a Scheme" is a common topic.
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2018-07-18T08:39:11Z ManDay[m]: And, the beauty of Haskell notwithstanding, but I think "Write yourself as Haskell" just wouldn't be the same...
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2018-07-20T10:00:49Z nulldata: Hey, anybody familiar with Nanopass?
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2018-07-20T12:16:40Z gwatt: A tiny bit
2018-07-20T12:16:50Z gwatt: oops, they're gone.
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2018-07-21T01:25:33Z black_13: is there a chicken scheme channel
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2018-07-21T01:26:09Z klovett: lack_13: #chicken
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2018-07-21T01:32:52Z qu1j0t3: nobody calls me chicken!
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2018-07-21T01:35:20Z black_13: gallus gallus?
2018-07-21T01:35:40Z black_13: can chicken scheme be compiled with visual studio
2018-07-21T01:36:25Z klovett: black_13: sorry, not w/o some work afaik
2018-07-21T01:36:52Z black_13: and the work
2018-07-21T01:38:11Z klovett: do not know but a windows build rqrs cygwin or msys2 currently
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2018-07-21T01:55:15Z black_13: or you compile with mingw but you create code for visual studio
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2018-07-21T18:21:42Z erkin: I'm trying to make a macro that takes variables and turns them into a URL query string format. (So, (define foo "bar") (define baz "quux") (define-query foo baz) whereupon the value of 'query is "?foo=bar&baz=quux")
2018-07-21T18:22:29Z erkin: I quickly put this together but I'm still not very well-versed with syntax-rules and it only assigns the value of the last argument to 'query https://paste.call-cc.org/paste?id=a656e70c76676962f17c413710725696f0e59c20
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2018-07-21T18:23:03Z erkin: So (define-query foo baz) yields onl y"?baz=quux"
2018-07-21T18:23:05Z erkin: only*
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2018-07-21T18:23:34Z erkin: I think it has to do with where I placed the ... form
2018-07-21T18:24:37Z pjb: In CL, it's easy: (defmacro query (&rest variables) `(format nil "?~@{~A=~A~^&~}" ,@(mapcan (lambda (var) (list `',var `,var)) variables)))  (defvar foo "bar") (defvar baz "quux") (macroexpand-1 '(query foo baz)) #| --> (format nil "?~@{~A=~A~^&~}" 'foo foo 'baz baz) ; t |# (query foo baz) #| --> "?foo=bar&baz=quux" |#
2018-07-21T18:26:28Z pjb: erkin: try to introduce some abstractions (utility functions), to avoid having such a big expression.
2018-07-21T18:26:52Z pjb: Basically this can be done by a function: (build-query 'var1 var1 'var2 var2 …)
2018-07-21T18:27:11Z pjb: so you need the macro only to expand (var1 var2 …) -> ('var1 var1 'var2 var2 …).
2018-07-21T18:27:25Z erkin: hmm
2018-07-21T18:27:26Z pjb: or (query var1 var2 …) -> (build-query 'var1 var1 'var2 var2 …).
2018-07-21T18:28:38Z pjb: If you handle #t, handle #f too.
2018-07-21T18:28:40Z erkin: Ah, uri-common already does what I need it to do.
2018-07-21T18:28:53Z erkin: pjb: #f implies a lack of value
2018-07-21T18:28:57Z erkin: So it's discarded
2018-07-21T18:29:11Z erkin: In "(if query-string ... "")"
2018-07-21T18:29:23Z pjb: ok.
2018-07-21T18:29:38Z pjb: SO it's not query-string, it's query-variable.
2018-07-21T18:29:46Z pjb: Choose your name wisely!
2018-07-21T18:29:50Z pjb: s
2018-07-21T18:29:58Z erkin: Good point
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2018-07-21T20:03:27Z smatchcube: Hello, i have a question, how can i pass the element of a list as arguments of a function?
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2018-07-21T20:14:20Z aeth: apply
2018-07-21T20:14:59Z aeth: (apply + (list 1 2 3 4 5)) => 15
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2018-07-21T20:17:15Z smatchcube: Oh thank you, it works for (apply + 1 (list 2 3 4 5))
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2018-07-21T20:19:21Z smatchcube: Thank you so much! Have a good day.
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2018-07-21T22:09:56Z Zipheir: Am I correct in assuming that I'll need to pull out string ports to read an sexp from a string?
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2018-07-21T22:17:49Z wasamasa: yes
2018-07-21T22:19:07Z Zipheir: I thought so. ty, wasamasa.
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2018-07-22T06:36:49Z ecraven: you can write your own parser that works directly on strings, but if you wanted to use the existing READ procedure, you'd use string ports
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2018-07-22T06:38:59Z nisstyre: writing your own lexer and parser is something you should do at least once
2018-07-22T06:39:05Z nisstyre: just to understand how it's done
2018-07-22T06:39:54Z nisstyre: you will have a better understanding for why certain things (*cough* ansible *cough*) give such awful parsing errors
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2018-07-22T18:24:47Z nulldata: Hey
2018-07-22T18:26:22Z Zipheir: Hey nulldata
2018-07-22T18:27:40Z nulldata: Is anybody familiar with Nanopass?
2018-07-22T18:28:05Z Zipheir: Somewhat
2018-07-22T18:30:46Z nulldata: Is there any convenient of having source information (file-name, line, position) attached to a language's terminals? Because it seems like the passes can only match on raw symbols (so I can't wrap them in a symbol)
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2018-07-22T18:34:59Z Zipheir: What nanopass implementation are you using?
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2018-07-22T18:35:16Z nulldata: The scheme one
2018-07-22T18:41:33Z Zipheir: I'm guessing you'll have to rewrite the nanopass implementation to provide that info.
2018-07-22T18:41:56Z Zipheir: I'm looking at https://github.com/akeep/nanopass-framework, not sure if that's what you're using
2018-07-22T18:42:00Z gwatt: file-name and line position are dependent on the scheme implementation
2018-07-22T18:43:07Z gwatt: Zipheir: That's the old repo. It's been moved to https://github.com/nanopass/nanopass-framework-scheme
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2018-07-22T18:45:24Z Zipheir: gwatt: Ah, great.
2018-07-22T18:45:52Z Zipheir: gwatt: Why are they implementation-dependent?
2018-07-22T18:48:17Z nulldata: REa
2018-07-22T18:48:30Z nulldata: Oops, hit enter too early there
2018-07-22T18:50:30Z nulldata: Reading the docs, it seems like the best way is to wrap terminals, and change s-exps that starts with a wrapped special symbol (like 'if', 'quote' or 'lambda') to an unwrapped s-exp: `(if src-info rest ...)` and match on that in the passes
2018-07-22T18:52:29Z Zipheir: Eech, there's got to be a better way...
2018-07-22T18:53:20Z nulldata: I wish, if just you could pass a custom matcher function, so I could match the inner value
2018-07-22T18:53:42Z nulldata: I guess I'll have to live with it until I've boot-strapped
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2018-07-22T18:58:00Z gwatt: You could define a language that is file/position aware and build the rest of your languages off that
2018-07-22T19:00:21Z Fare: A language where the only arithmetic operations involve the file position as constants
2018-07-22T19:00:43Z Zipheir: nulldata: Yeah, it seems like what you want is to lift a matcher to a record type of some sort
2018-07-22T19:00:50Z Fare: such that maintaining libraries is "interesting".
2018-07-22T19:02:28Z Zipheir: Fare: I see the beginnings of a new esoteric language...
2018-07-22T19:03:06Z nulldata: It's a complition error if your source info doesn't match the actual location
2018-07-22T19:03:20Z nulldata: The most refactoring hostile language ever
2018-07-22T19:03:21Z gwatt: I meant "language" in the sense that nanopass has, via the define-language macro
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2018-07-22T19:05:12Z pjb: nulldata: multipass, yes.  Corbin Dallas Multipass.
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2018-07-22T19:06:17Z Zipheir: heh
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2018-07-22T19:09:12Z nulldata: pjb: Is that a library? Because I can't find it
2018-07-22T19:10:22Z Zipheir: nulldata: Fifth Element reference. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eV_eGm1qgGs
2018-07-22T19:11:25Z nulldata: Okay, I guessed I was getted memed on, but I wasn't sure
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2018-07-22T19:13:14Z Zipheir: Yeah, Sarkar et al missed out on calling their framework 'mooltipass'
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2018-07-23T01:42:54Z Zipheir: What's with the regular use of underscores to match the macro keyword in syntax-rules? e.g. (define-syntax foo-macro (syntax-rules () ((_ x y z) ...)))
2018-07-23T01:43:33Z Zipheir: I assume it's because the underscore will always match the keyword, but can this ever backfire?
2018-07-23T01:53:42Z Fare: is the _ even special, or is it just a convention, where any variable name would do?
2018-07-23T01:54:49Z Zipheir: _ matches any expression, cf R7RS 4.3.2
2018-07-23T01:56:59Z Zipheir: (when used in the pattern component of a syntax rule, that is)
2018-07-23T01:58:58Z pierpa: just a convention
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2018-07-23T01:59:54Z pierpa: it is used to convery the information that whatever name one puts there, it doesn't matter and does not have any meaning
2018-07-23T02:00:01Z pierpa: *convey
2018-07-23T02:01:50Z Zipheir: Right, but I'm asking about the use of _ as a shorthand for a keyword.
2018-07-23T02:02:41Z Zipheir: That is, are (define-syntax foo-macro (syntax-rules () ((_ x y z) ...))) and (define-syntax foo-macro (syntax-rules () ((foo x y z) ...)))
2018-07-23T02:02:55Z Zipheir: Oops, hit enter.
2018-07-23T02:03:18Z Zipheir: Are (define-syntax foo-macro (syntax-rules () ((_ x y z) ...))) and (define-syntax foo-macro (syntax-rules () ((foo-macro x y z) ...))) strictly equivalent?
2018-07-23T02:07:08Z siraben: Zipheir: It appears to be so.
2018-07-23T02:07:46Z siraben: Because if foo-macro appears free in the ... it's substituted literally
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2018-07-23T02:12:38Z Zipheir: siraben: Yeah. I guess what I'm really wondering about is the semantics of define-syntax
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2018-07-23T02:18:34Z Zipheir: In particular, what's to stop (+ 1 2 3) from matching the first version of foo-macro? Do macros have higher 'syntactic precedence' than procedure applications?
2018-07-23T02:19:00Z Zipheir: Grr, there must be something about this in R7RS.
2018-07-23T02:23:12Z jcowan: Zipheir: It's an error to define a name as both a variable and a macro keyword in a module or program, but at the REPL you can do it and the last one wins
2018-07-23T02:23:27Z jcowan: (modulo that macro expansions that have already happened are not undone)
2018-07-23T02:24:29Z jcowan: the first element of a syntax-rules pattern can be anything at all: I prefer to use the macro keyword rather than _
2018-07-23T02:25:20Z jcowan: _ is magic when it is *not* the first element in the pattern:  (foo _ _ _) matches three arguments, not three equal arguments
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2018-07-23T02:26:22Z Zipheir: jcowan: Thank you!
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2018-07-23T02:30:35Z Zipheir: Damn, it's right here in the report: "The keyword at the beginning of the pattern … is not involved in the matching and is considered neither a pattern variable nor a literal identifier."
2018-07-23T02:31:00Z Zipheir: Sorry for not reading, folks.
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2018-07-23T02:42:46Z siraben: It's run to write your own pattern matcher in Scheme
2018-07-23T02:42:50Z siraben: fun*
2018-07-23T02:46:34Z Zipheir: siraben: Is that your current project?
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2018-07-23T02:52:53Z siraben: Zipheir: Oh yeah I've finished that
2018-07-23T02:53:06Z siraben: It was strong enough to encode Peano arithmetic and factorial
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2018-07-23T02:56:33Z Zipheir: Nice
2018-07-23T02:57:06Z siraben: Going through streams in SICP
2018-07-23T02:57:31Z siraben: Finished all the lectures but the textbook is much more detailed.
2018-07-23T02:57:42Z siraben: They don't use macros though, where it would help a lot.
2018-07-23T02:57:44Z Zipheir: Taking some time to try to fully understand scheme's macro system has made me a little curious as to why pattern matching isn't available in Scheme proper.
2018-07-23T02:57:56Z Zipheir: Yeah, SICP is allergic to macros.
2018-07-23T02:58:01Z siraben: What do you mean, Scheme proper?
2018-07-23T02:58:24Z Zipheir: I mean, as opposed to the higher-order macro language.
2018-07-23T02:58:37Z siraben: Oh I see
2018-07-23T02:58:44Z siraben: https://youtu.be/a2Qt9uxhNSM?t=32m31s is where collect was introduced
2018-07-23T02:59:08Z siraben: I like how the eight queens problem is so easy
2018-07-23T02:59:11Z siraben: With straems
2018-07-23T02:59:13Z Zipheir: Most schemes have matchers implemented, but there doesn't even seem to be an SRFI for pattern matching.
2018-07-23T02:59:14Z siraben: streams*
2018-07-23T02:59:38Z Zipheir: Yeah, that 8 queens program is a beauty.
2018-07-23T02:59:55Z Zipheir: List of successes at its most successful!
2018-07-23T03:00:22Z siraben: I wrote a Sudoku solving program with streams but the example on wikipedia of a puzzle that was supposed work be hard with backtracking made my solver sad
2018-07-23T03:00:36Z siraben: It does solve the puzzles, but not ones designed against backtracking
2018-07-23T03:00:42Z siraben: Weird, doesn't even use backtracking
2018-07-23T03:00:53Z Zipheir: Well, hard might just be hard
2018-07-23T03:01:25Z siraben: Zipheir: This is what I came up with as a macro for collect
2018-07-23T03:01:25Z siraben: https://paste.debian.net/1034808/
2018-07-23T03:03:00Z siraben: I should get all my Scheme programs and put them on github
2018-07-23T03:04:21Z Zipheir: Did they get rid of collect in the second edition? I'm not seeing it in the HTML version.
2018-07-23T03:04:30Z siraben: They defined collect?
2018-07-23T03:04:58Z Zipheir: They use it in some of the examples...
2018-07-23T03:05:12Z siraben: I wish they had mentioned `define-syntax' (or even `define-macro') in SICPor the later edition because they use macros quite a bit
2018-07-23T03:05:17Z siraben: Implicitly
2018-07-23T03:05:27Z siraben: Right in the examples, but not defining collect
2018-07-23T03:05:53Z siraben: Zipheir: What Scheme implementation are you using?
2018-07-23T03:05:57Z siraben: I'm using Guile
2018-07-23T03:06:00Z Zipheir: CHICKEN, atm
2018-07-23T03:06:05Z siraben: But Chez is also good
2018-07-23T03:06:18Z siraben: Zipheir: Why CHICKEN?
2018-07-23T03:06:57Z Zipheir: Yeah, I've been trying to get Alpine Linux to package Chez...
2018-07-23T03:07:42Z Zipheir: CHICKEN is fast, small, the code is nice, it's got a _lot_ of libraries and SRFI support.
2018-07-23T03:08:17Z Zipheir: And, as a reformed C programmer, I feel kind of comfortable with the C interface
2018-07-23T03:08:37Z siraben: It's amazing that Scheme can be implemented so easily in C
2018-07-23T03:08:55Z siraben: Well, unless you go to lengths to implement hygenic macros
2018-07-23T03:09:13Z Zipheir: Well, proper tail recursion is tough to acheive
2018-07-23T03:09:22Z siraben: Yeah tail recursion is difficult
2018-07-23T03:09:27Z siraben: You could CPS the programs though
2018-07-23T03:09:49Z Zipheir: Have you read about Cheney on the MTA?
2018-07-23T03:09:50Z siraben: Zipheir: Would you recommend reading Essentials of Programming Languages?
2018-07-23T03:09:56Z siraben: Zipheir: NO.
2018-07-23T03:09:59Z siraben: No*
2018-07-23T03:10:37Z siraben: Oh Cons should not Cons its arguments
2018-07-23T03:10:39Z Zipheir: It's what the CHICKEN compiler uses. If you like CPS, well... http://home.pipeline.com/~hbaker1/CheneyMTA.html
2018-07-23T03:10:40Z siraben: What is that all about
2018-07-23T03:11:13Z siraben: Why is it called Cheney on the MTA?
2018-07-23T03:11:29Z siraben: Sounds like a movie title.
2018-07-23T03:11:37Z Zipheir: Check out the footnote to the title of that paper
2018-07-23T03:12:02Z siraben: Haha
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2018-07-23T03:12:21Z Zipheir: Basically, you compile scheme to a bunch of procedures that never return. Each time the call stack gets too big, you save it to a heap.
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2018-07-23T03:13:25Z siraben: Damn that's a good song.
2018-07-23T03:13:30Z Zipheir: Hah
2018-07-23T03:13:36Z aeth: Zipheir: How often does the call stack get too big?
2018-07-23T03:14:11Z Zipheir: I think CHICKEN checks at the top of each procedure?
2018-07-23T03:14:35Z aeth: This is the first time I'm hearing about this issue
2018-07-23T03:15:00Z Zipheir: I mean the
2018-07-23T03:15:05Z Zipheir: *I mean the C call stack
2018-07-23T03:16:36Z Zipheir: c.f. https://wiki.call-cc.org/chicken-compilation-process
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2018-07-23T03:18:36Z Zipheir: siraben: Essentials of Programming Languages is on my list of books to read. I tend to think anything Dan Friedman is involved with is worth reading.
2018-07-23T03:19:31Z siraben: Zipheir: I really enjoyed the microkanren paper of which Dan Friedman is a co-author
2018-07-23T03:19:52Z siraben: Logic programming in 39 lines of scheme???
2018-07-23T03:20:05Z siraben: Of course, there's macros as well, and you can implement a pattern matcher on top...
2018-07-23T03:22:40Z Zipheir: You've read The Reasoned Schemer, I assume?
2018-07-23T03:22:44Z siraben: No I have not
2018-07-23T03:22:46Z siraben: I should
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2018-07-23T03:23:28Z siraben: I learned what I could by tracing the programs in microkanren, but wow it's complex.
2018-07-23T03:23:35Z proksi[m]: Hi guys
2018-07-23T03:23:46Z proksi[m]: Could you explain what's the difference between Chicken and Gambit? And which one would you recommend?
2018-07-23T03:23:47Z siraben: I feel that I still don't really understand Scheme despite studying it for a year
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2018-07-23T03:28:39Z Zipheir: proksi[m]: I haven't messed with gambit, but I can certainly recommend chicken.
2018-07-23T03:29:08Z Zipheir: proksi[m]: You might be interested in ecraven's scheme benchmarks https://ecraven.github.io/r7rs-benchmarks/
2018-07-23T03:30:37Z proksi[m]: Zipheir: Yes, gambit is #2 there, while chicken is on the position #8
2018-07-23T03:31:18Z Zipheir: siraben: You'll probably really like the Reasoned Schemer. It doesn't exactly connect kanren to 'normal' Scheme programming, but it's still really good.
2018-07-23T03:32:18Z Zipheir: siraben: Heh, have you found Haskell more or less hard to understand than Scheme?
2018-07-23T03:34:27Z proksi[m]: I use Gerbil scheme myself, but didn't use Chicken at all. Just kinda interesting to hear some pros/cons from someone who used both
2018-07-23T03:36:26Z siraben: Zipheir: Maybe because I'm reading category theory, I find Haskell much harder
2018-07-23T03:36:31Z siraben: Zipheir: What's a good free text on Haskell?
2018-07-23T03:36:41Z siraben: I want to buy Haskell from First principles but it's not printed.
2018-07-23T03:36:59Z Zipheir: siraben: The Wikibook is decent https://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Haskell
2018-07-23T03:37:42Z siraben: Zipheir: Hmm.  What else?
2018-07-23T03:38:50Z siraben: Zipheir: Much harder, but so far it's nice to program in a language where if your program doesn't compile it is probably correct
2018-07-23T03:39:02Z siraben: Whereas in Scheme type errors and the like are checked at run time
2018-07-23T03:39:03Z Zipheir: siraben: Not too many that I know of.
2018-07-23T03:39:16Z siraben: Is there a better way to abstract data than just cons?
2018-07-23T03:39:21Z siraben: Combine data types
2018-07-23T03:39:28Z siraben: Of course there's lambda
2018-07-23T03:40:25Z Zipheir: Yeah, I do find that compiling a Scheme program is the beginning of trouble, whereas a Haskell compiler catches most of my stupid mistakes.
2018-07-23T03:41:03Z siraben: I think learning category theory just brings you directly to the hard part of haskell
2018-07-23T03:41:15Z siraben: But a lot of concepts carry over from scheme
2018-07-23T03:41:16Z Zipheir: Heh
2018-07-23T03:41:29Z siraben: Zipheir: What do you use to make abstract data types?
2018-07-23T03:42:18Z Zipheir: You mean, something other than lists, a la SICP?
2018-07-23T03:42:21Z siraben: Yes
2018-07-23T03:42:22Z Zipheir: Record type
2018-07-23T03:42:25Z Zipheir: *types
2018-07-23T03:42:31Z siraben: Ok, is that covered in EOPL?
2018-07-23T03:42:35Z Zipheir: Maybe?
2018-07-23T03:42:56Z Zipheir: SICP would be a lot shorter if they had define-record-type...
2018-07-23T03:43:08Z siraben: Apparently not I just searched
2018-07-23T03:43:11Z siraben: in EOPL
2018-07-23T03:43:19Z siraben: Zipheir: I agree, so many functions are just boilerplate
2018-07-23T03:43:39Z siraben: e.g. in the metacircular interpreter (define (if? exp) (eq? (car exp) 'if))
2018-07-23T03:44:11Z siraben: (define (eval exp env) (cond ((if? exp) (eval-if exp) ...)))
2018-07-23T03:44:31Z siraben: Sadly they don't teach SICP anymore
2018-07-23T03:44:33Z Zipheir: Yeah, and seriously, pattern match that stuff!
2018-07-23T03:44:40Z siraben: Zipheir: Yes, pattern match!
2018-07-23T03:45:21Z siraben: I think what was pretty innovative was that they used their own register machine instead of what the leading was at the time.
2018-07-23T03:45:30Z siraben: It means all their examples are still relevant
2018-07-23T03:45:33Z Zipheir: Exactly
2018-07-23T03:46:03Z siraben: Hmm I'm still a little confused by monads in scheme
2018-07-23T03:46:05Z siraben: http://okmij.org/ftp/Scheme/monad-in-Scheme.html
2018-07-23T03:46:15Z siraben: Oleg is such a hacker
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2018-07-23T07:41:20Z wasamasa: proksi[m]: I doubt you'll find people who used both
2018-07-23T07:41:31Z wasamasa: proksi[m]: if you use one, you have no need for the other
2018-07-23T07:42:06Z ecraven: I'd say probably both are fine (without seriously having used either). just pick the one that looks better to you
2018-07-23T07:47:36Z wasamasa: proksi[m]: gambit does better in benchmarks, has been used for at least three projects (jazzscheme, lambdanative, gerbil) and comes with a modest toolbox, CHICKEN comes with loads of extensions and libraries and has a nice community
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2018-07-23T17:11:27Z duncanm: hey ecraven
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2018-07-23T18:00:14Z Zipheir: I'm still trying to wrap my head around syntax-rules. Is this sort of ellipses-destructuring valid generally? (syntax-rules () ((_ ((a b) ...)) '((a ...) (b ...))))
2018-07-23T18:00:29Z Zipheir: (Not a good way to define unzip, of course :))
2018-07-23T18:01:38Z wasamasa: I doubt this will work
2018-07-23T18:02:17Z wasamasa: the rules are something along the lines of that if you capture foo ... you must expand foo ...
2018-07-23T18:02:45Z wasamasa: have you looked at the syntax-rules primer for the mildly eccentric?
2018-07-23T18:03:43Z Zipheir: It does work in chicken, at least, and there are some similar things claiming to implement let out there.
2018-07-23T18:03:59Z wasamasa: huh
2018-07-23T18:04:00Z Zipheir: I was looking for that tutorial. I saw it a long time ago.
2018-07-23T18:04:40Z Zipheir: Yeah, my response was sort of "there's no way ellipses are that smart"
2018-07-23T18:06:52Z Zipheir: wasamasa: Weird -> https://blog.veitheller.de/Scheme_Macros_III:_Defining_let.html
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2018-07-24T01:23:17Z Zipheir: rudybot: botsnack
2018-07-24T01:23:17Z rudybot: A légpárnás tele van angolnák.
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2018-07-24T03:09:00Z Zipheir: siraben: o/
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2018-07-24T03:11:40Z siraben: Zipheir: Aye
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2018-07-24T03:13:48Z Zipheir: siraben: How’s hacking?
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2018-07-24T05:29:23Z ecraven: duncanm: heyho!
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2018-07-24T05:29:43Z ecraven: wasamasa: that is entirely legal
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2018-07-24T05:46:33Z siraben: Zipheir: Good
2018-07-24T05:46:47Z siraben: Zipheir: What are some good libraries for GUI programming in Scheme?
2018-07-24T05:49:31Z wasamasa: the only one universally considered good is the racket thing
2018-07-24T05:49:56Z ecraven: does racket have a new GUI thing? or just the old class widget based one?
2018-07-24T05:51:17Z wasamasa: they rewrote it to no longer depend on wxwidgets
2018-07-24T05:51:19Z Zipheir: siraben: You’re using Guile right?
2018-07-24T05:51:25Z siraben: Zipheir: Yeah.
2018-07-24T05:51:51Z wasamasa: I've never heard of guile in that context
2018-07-24T05:52:06Z wasamasa: CHICKEN has a bunch, I contributed some myself
2018-07-24T05:52:10Z Zipheir: siraben: The best-maintained seems to be https://www.gnu.org/software/guile-gnome/, but big, big, big!
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2018-07-24T05:53:09Z Zipheir: Yeah, CHICKEN has some that look pretty nice
2018-07-24T05:53:15Z ecraven: I've had good experiences with immediate-mode guis, like dear imgui or nuklear. wasamasa's nuklear library for chicken seems nice, for example
2018-07-24T05:53:21Z ecraven: but it all depends on what you mean by "GUI programming"
2018-07-24T05:53:41Z Zipheir: wasamasa: You're behind the kiwi egg, right?
2018-07-24T05:53:45Z wasamasa: Zipheir: I am, yes
2018-07-24T05:54:11Z wasamasa: Zipheir: and nuklear and libui
2018-07-24T05:54:36Z Zipheir: wasamasa: Wow, nice work.
2018-07-24T05:54:50Z wasamasa: the wrappers aren't complete :<
2018-07-24T05:55:02Z ecraven: wasamasa: of all of those, which one do you like best?
2018-07-24T05:55:10Z wasamasa: and I'd ideally need someone to write the platform-specific parts for windows and macos
2018-07-24T05:55:12Z ecraven: (ignoring all the "depends on the use case" thing ;)
2018-07-24T05:55:20Z wasamasa: well, it ultimately depends on that
2018-07-24T05:55:27Z Zipheir: siraben: https://wiki.call-cc.org/eggref/4/kiwi
2018-07-24T05:55:54Z wasamasa: ecraven: I like pstk, nuklear and iup
2018-07-24T05:56:15Z ecraven: last I looked at it, interfacing with libui via the C ffi was rather simple
2018-07-24T05:56:33Z siraben: Zipheir: I wish SICP did more stuff on continuations
2018-07-24T05:56:36Z wasamasa: ecraven: it is, your greatest problem is installing the library
2018-07-24T05:56:44Z siraben: Zipheir: Thanks for that, I"ll check it out
2018-07-24T05:56:50Z wasamasa: ecraven: last time I looked their CMake stuff didn't have an installation target...
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2018-07-24T05:57:01Z ecraven: wasamasa: ah, right, I darkly remember that
2018-07-24T05:57:13Z wasamasa: but maybe they fixed that while I wasn't looking
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2018-07-24T05:57:44Z Zipheir: Ugh, Cmake
2018-07-24T05:57:54Z wasamasa: well, it's pretty much needed for windows builds
2018-07-24T05:59:36Z ecraven: wasamasa: could you give me a link to pstk? cannot find anything useful :-/
2018-07-24T05:59:52Z ecraven: ah, it's ps/tk
2018-07-24T05:59:54Z wasamasa: pstk is the most useful one as it's written in portable scheme :D
2018-07-24T06:00:34Z wasamasa: https://github.com/andlabs/libui/pull/232 ._.
2018-07-24T06:02:02Z wasamasa: why hasn't this been merged yet?
2018-07-24T06:02:23Z ecraven: the last comment has open points? maybe they want them addressed before merging?
2018-07-24T06:02:48Z wasamasa: that's from someone else than the author though
2018-07-24T06:05:15Z Zipheir: siraben: IIRC the last chapters of The Seasoned Schemer cover a lot of continuation topics
2018-07-24T06:05:50Z siraben: Maybe I should buy the "The .*ed Schemer" books
2018-07-24T06:07:59Z siraben: Zipheir: I'm attempting to implement a Scheme interpreter in Emacs Lisp
2018-07-24T06:08:05Z siraben: But can't figure how to do to tail calls
2018-07-24T06:08:25Z Zipheir: That's an interesting challenge
2018-07-24T06:08:33Z siraben: Zipheir: Is there an example procedure that converts code to CPS?
2018-07-24T06:08:42Z siraben: I can do it by hand but can't quite express it in Scheme
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2018-07-24T06:10:35Z Zipheir: There are probably a lot of them on the web. I'm pretty sure the RABBIT paper (http://repository.readscheme.org/ftp/papers/ai-lab-pubs/AITR-474.pdf) has an in-depth explanation of the CPS transformer that compiler used.
2018-07-24T06:11:01Z siraben: Hey it's Guy Steele
2018-07-24T06:11:44Z Zipheir: siraben: Also Matt Might has a good article: http://matt.might.net/articles/cps-conversion/
2018-07-24T06:11:58Z siraben: But it's racket
2018-07-24T06:12:06Z siraben: At least it's concise, because of pattern matching
2018-07-24T06:13:30Z Zipheir: It's pretty understandable. (I don't know Racket)
2018-07-24T06:14:52Z siraben: Zipheir: I don't get what's on page 5 of https://www.cs.utah.edu/%7Emflatt/past-courses/cs6520/public_html/s02/cps.pdf
2018-07-24T06:14:57Z siraben: The formal conversion
2018-07-24T06:15:02Z siraben: What notation is that?
2018-07-24T06:15:53Z Zipheir: Looks like denotational semantics
2018-07-24T06:16:03Z siraben: Where can I learn denotational semantics?
2018-07-24T06:16:11Z siraben: I'm reading R5RS and it uses it too
2018-07-24T06:16:37Z Zipheir: Actually, Lisp in Small Pieces teaches denotational semantics along with Lisp compilation
2018-07-24T06:16:45Z Zipheir: Unfortunately, it's super expensive
2018-07-24T06:16:51Z siraben: Yeah I saw the price :/
2018-07-24T06:16:58Z ecraven: maybe the french original is cheaper?
2018-07-24T06:16:59Z ecraven: les langages lisp
2018-07-24T06:17:58Z siraben: Where can I understand shift, reset, call/cc ?
2018-07-24T06:18:07Z siraben: I'd like to try to implement them
2018-07-24T06:19:00Z Zipheir: The Seasoned Schemer
2018-07-24T06:19:06Z Zipheir: and other places
2018-07-24T06:21:00Z Zipheir: siraben: Decent call/cc tutorial: http://community.schemewiki.org/?call-with-current-continuation
2018-07-24T06:21:41Z siraben: I looked at http://community.schemewiki.org/?call-with-current-continuation-for-C-programmers but I don't understand setjmp, longjmp either, oh well.
2018-07-24T06:22:08Z siraben: Ok that helps.
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2018-07-24T09:25:58Z pjb: ecraven: LiSP is Les Principes d'Implantation de Scheme et Lisp = PISL :-
2018-07-24T09:26:00Z pjb: /
2018-07-24T09:27:26Z ecraven: is that a newer edition? it used to be les langages lisp
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2018-07-24T09:38:26Z pjb: Yes, I have the latest edition.
2018-07-24T09:38:36Z pjb: It is not translated yet AFAIK.
2018-07-24T09:38:50Z ecraven: is it very different? worth getting if I already have the old one?
2018-07-24T09:39:07Z pjb: AFAIK, it's not very different.  The English translation is good.
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2018-07-24T16:15:08Z TheGreekOwl: Greetings?
2018-07-24T16:15:10Z TheGreekOwl: http://prntscr.com/kagefe I have question
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2018-07-24T16:32:46Z pjb: TheGreekOwl: it's good to have questions.  If you hoard them, you can even become rich in questions.
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2018-07-24T16:36:54Z deuill: It essentially runs the '+' function for 'a' times, incrementing 'b' by '1' each time.
2018-07-24T16:37:50Z pjb: deuill: you're very strong.  You know the question he has telepathically?
2018-07-24T16:38:10Z deuill: I assume he has a question on the question posted.
2018-07-24T16:38:25Z pjb: Which one? There are two questions.
2018-07-24T16:38:27Z deuill: And yes, coding in PHP will make you telepathic
2018-07-24T16:38:31Z pjb: :-)
2018-07-24T16:38:53Z deuill: (also downing all the pills in the bathroom cabinet)
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2018-07-24T16:39:11Z deuill: ;)
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2018-07-24T16:40:44Z deuill: Maybe the question was 'Greetings?'?
2018-07-24T16:40:51Z qu1j0t3: deuill: socio-*
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2018-07-24T16:59:27Z Zipheir: TheGreekOwl: Hey, I'm glad you stuck with Scheme. I thought you might have ragequit.
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2018-07-24T17:05:45Z nisstyre: does anyone have a copy of this book with a readable font? https://gustavus.edu/mcs/max/concrete-abstractions-pdfs/index.html
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2018-07-24T17:17:18Z nisstyre: actually nevermind, it's the Firefox pdf reader
2018-07-24T17:19:37Z deuill: nisstyre, that looks like an interesting book
2018-07-24T17:20:48Z nisstyre: deuill: yeah I had never heard of it before
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2018-07-24T20:58:33Z wasamasa: TheGreekOwl: if you want an answer, better post that question
2018-07-24T20:58:43Z TheGreekOwl: wasamasa, well
2018-07-24T20:58:51Z TheGreekOwl: The more further I go into SICP
2018-07-24T20:58:54Z wasamasa: IRC is not synchronous
2018-07-24T20:59:03Z TheGreekOwl: The more I realize that its increasingly getting mathematical
2018-07-24T20:59:07Z wasamasa: you can ask at one time and someone answers at another, sometimes hours apart
2018-07-24T20:59:11Z wasamasa: well, that's chapter 1
2018-07-24T20:59:18Z TheGreekOwl: Oh.
2018-07-24T20:59:29Z TheGreekOwl: Well, because I was thinking, if its just codifying mathematics to solve problems,
2018-07-24T20:59:30Z wasamasa: you're practicing your abstraction abilities with something not requiring them to explain too many features, numbers
2018-07-24T20:59:34Z TheGreekOwl: I better be good at mathematics first.
2018-07-24T20:59:40Z wasamasa: if you want a whole book codifying these, try SICM
2018-07-24T21:00:03Z TheGreekOwl: I'm doing SICP because its my introduction to programming
2018-07-24T21:00:14Z TheGreekOwl: I plan on moving to C# after this
2018-07-24T21:00:17Z wasamasa: lol
2018-07-24T21:00:57Z wasamasa: you better write a zachtronics competitor with unity then :>
2018-07-24T21:01:07Z TheGreekOwl:  zachtronics competitor ?
2018-07-24T21:01:20Z wasamasa: yeah, that's a company making programming games
2018-07-24T21:01:46Z TheGreekOwl: ???
2018-07-24T21:02:28Z wasamasa: I mean, why else would you go through SICP if not to learn how to design challenging stuff
2018-07-24T21:02:43Z wasamasa: it's an introduction to all kinds of CS problems
2018-07-24T21:02:54Z TheGreekOwl: I do it because I hate easy stuff I guess.
2018-07-24T21:03:00Z TheGreekOwl: I like going balls deep
2018-07-24T21:03:10Z TheGreekOwl: I like to torture languages
2018-07-24T21:04:30Z wasamasa: lol, you're not even close
2018-07-24T21:04:40Z TheGreekOwl: wasamasa, go on.
2018-07-24T21:04:48Z wasamasa: come back once you've implemented strings in a language without them
2018-07-24T21:04:52Z TheGreekOwl: I should mention my teleology is to make indie games.
2018-07-24T21:04:58Z TheGreekOwl: ...?
2018-07-24T21:05:14Z TheGreekOwl: Implimenting strings in a language that doesn't have them...
2018-07-24T21:05:27Z wasamasa: that's closer to the idea of torture
2018-07-24T21:05:39Z TheGreekOwl: Wait, are you saying create compound operations not-inherent to the structure of the language
2018-07-24T21:05:49Z TheGreekOwl: Or are you saying modifying the language and the compilers to implement strings in it
2018-07-24T21:05:53Z wasamasa: or linked lists in a language designed for fixed-size buffers
2018-07-24T21:06:09Z TheGreekOwl: What are linked lists and whats a fized size buffer?
2018-07-24T21:06:12Z wasamasa: I've run into one so far where I couldn't make it work
2018-07-24T21:06:20Z wasamasa: well, you better learn that before trying to make games
2018-07-24T21:06:30Z wasamasa: basic data structures
2018-07-24T21:06:38Z TheGreekOwl: Ok. I'll check it out later.
2018-07-24T21:06:41Z TheGreekOwl: I'm doing math ATM.
2018-07-24T21:07:02Z wasamasa: the problem with doing games is that it requires skills in many disciplines and you can get lost easily
2018-07-24T21:07:11Z wasamasa: especially if you try making your own game engine covering everything
2018-07-24T21:07:13Z TheGreekOwl: I can already do art and music.
2018-07-24T21:07:33Z TheGreekOwl: Also, I fancy myself an auteur
2018-07-24T21:07:44Z TheGreekOwl: So I'm down with slogging through to learn that stuff
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2018-07-24T22:12:54Z Zipheir: wasamasa: Probably why games made by a small number of people usually have at most two of good code, good gameplay, good art or good music.
2018-07-24T22:13:29Z wasamasa: who cares about good code
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2018-07-24T22:15:29Z Zipheir: wasamasa: True :p
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2018-07-24T22:27:46Z aeth: TheGreekOwl: You should check out #lispgames for Lisp gamedev. It uses the Lisp family definition.
2018-07-24T22:27:55Z aeth: wasamasa: Games don't have good code.
2018-07-24T22:28:37Z aeth: You don't pay programmers half the market rate and give them unreasonable deadlines/hours to get good code.
2018-07-24T22:29:15Z aeth: https://www.reddit.com/r/gamedev/comments/919t6j/6k_verified_game_industry_salaries_2018_updates/
2018-07-24T22:30:10Z TheGreekOwl: aeth, wait, you can make games in lisp?
2018-07-24T22:30:14Z TheGreekOwl: That aren't text adventures?
2018-07-24T22:30:55Z aeth: https://dto.itch.io/
2018-07-24T22:30:56Z aeth: https://itch.io/jam/lisp-game-jam-2018/entries
2018-07-24T22:31:21Z aeth: Some of those in the game jams are kind of cheating, using a Clojure plugin to Unity or using a Lispish-language-to-Lua compiler
2018-07-24T22:31:36Z wasamasa: why is using an engine "kind of cheating"?
2018-07-24T22:31:47Z aeth: wasamasa: Because the engine isn't built in Lisp or for Lisp
2018-07-24T22:31:58Z wasamasa: so?
2018-07-24T22:32:11Z TheGreekOwl: wasamasa, I mean,
2018-07-24T22:32:18Z wasamasa: who the fuck cares what the engine is written in
2018-07-24T22:32:32Z aeth: So it doesn't demonstrate that Lisp is suitable for games if 95% of the code is in another language and 5% is translated to another language instead of using a mainstream implementation. Or something.
2018-07-24T22:32:52Z aeth: dto's games are pure CL though
2018-07-24T22:34:02Z wasamasa: aren't you forgetting the SDL part?
2018-07-24T22:34:03Z aeth: What happened to davexunit? He used to be a regular here with a Guile game library afaik. https://twitter.com/davexunit
2018-07-24T22:34:21Z wasamasa: https://gitlab.com/dto/xelf/blob/master/xelf.asd#L15-19
2018-07-24T22:34:24Z aeth: (That Twitter's all politics retweets now?)
2018-07-24T22:34:32Z wasamasa: yup
2018-07-24T22:34:35Z deuill: A number of Naughty Dog games are made in a dialect of Scheme too
2018-07-24T22:34:48Z wasamasa: aeth: I considered following him on mastodon, but it's the same there
2018-07-24T22:35:55Z deuill: Or rather, CL?
2018-07-24T22:35:59Z aeth: wasamasa: I think dto's games might not count, then, but only because they might use SDL's 2D APIs
2018-07-24T22:36:14Z aeth: wasamasa: Using modern SDL and modern OpenGL absolutely would count because you can't really avoid them.
2018-07-24T22:36:21Z aeth: (Or some alternative way to get windows/input to SDL)
2018-07-24T22:36:24Z wasamasa: aeth: aha, so that's OK again
2018-07-24T22:36:57Z wasamasa: I can't say I really understand that because if we went all the way only forth users would remain free from C
2018-07-24T22:37:16Z aeth: It's OK to use unavoidable foreign code unless you're the purest of purists because otherwise you're just going to be writing your own OS first in order to accomplish anything.
2018-07-24T22:37:32Z wasamasa: that's exactly why I consider that stance silly
2018-07-24T22:37:39Z aeth: At some level there's going to be core APIs, probably in C, that you can't avoid. In Linux, though, the asm is stable so you can avoid more C
2018-07-24T22:38:02Z aeth: s/the asm/syscalls written in asm/
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2018-07-24T22:43:09Z aeth: wasamasa: Specifically for games, though, there are scripting languages and then there are deeper languages used for the actual engine. Old (pre-4) id tech used QuakeC for scripting and C for the engine. Modern engines generally use C++ for the engine and either Lua or a custom language for the scripting, with the exception of Unity, which uses C# for *scripting*.
2018-07-24T22:43:53Z aeth: A game scripting language says *nothing* about the suitability of that language. It can be awful. You just put up with it. Most of the work can be in the engine (even customizing the engine for certain games) and the scripting can be something that people barely tolerate using poorly exposed APIs.
2018-07-24T22:44:53Z aeth: Although a general purpose engine with a general purpose scripting language (e.g. Unity) is probably going to do quite a bit in the scripting
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2018-07-24T22:48:36Z aeth: When something's 99% not-Lisp with some very light Lisp scripting added on top I'd personally find it hard to call it a Lisp game. It's usually a lot grayer of a line, though.
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2018-07-24T23:13:37Z Zipheir: It does seem like a lot of game developers have a get-it-to-compile-without-errors attitude toward programming. Which is compounded by poor language and design choices.
2018-07-24T23:17:33Z Zipheir: But of course that's also an understandable--if misguided--approach for people working on such enormously complicated programs that need to be done on time.
2018-07-24T23:21:09Z aeth: It's only as complicated as you make it, but you can make it extremely complicated, like a AAA MMOFPS. That'll check every box: graphics, networking, etc. You can then go beyond that and combine a AAA MMOFPS with a space sim and get Star Citizen, a game that will never be completed.
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2018-07-24T23:21:25Z aeth: And they're not even doing everything from scratch, they're using an engine! But they have to do more from scratch than most.
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2018-07-24T23:25:25Z aeth: For most game developers, I think the majority of the hard programming work is done by the engine and middleware, though.
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2018-07-25T00:29:43Z siraben: Zipheir: From studying more category theory...  I just realized streams (+ flatmap) in Scheme are a monad!
2018-07-25T00:30:03Z siraben: So if M represents the lifting of a type into a stream
2018-07-25T00:30:26Z siraben: map_stream :: (a -> b) -> (M a -> M b)
2018-07-25T00:30:43Z siraben: flatten :: M (M a) -> (M a)
2018-07-25T00:31:34Z siraben: So if we map a function a -> M b but want to turn M a -> M b
2018-07-25T00:31:54Z siraben: (>>=) :: M a -> (a -> M b) -> M b
2018-07-25T00:31:54Z Zipheir: Yeah, the type of flatten looks weird though.
2018-07-25T00:32:00Z siraben: Just use flatten and flatmap
2018-07-25T00:32:05Z siraben: I think of it as "a stream of streams"
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2018-07-25T00:34:37Z Zipheir: Is that what SICP calls a "tableau"?
2018-07-25T00:34:51Z siraben: Oh it wasn't in the videos
2018-07-25T00:34:53Z siraben: I should read the book
2018-07-25T00:35:18Z siraben: Yeah it's a tableau
2018-07-25T00:37:35Z Zipheir: siraben: Compare your stream example with the list monad in Haskell.
2018-07-25T00:38:48Z siraben: map_stream is a functor
2018-07-25T00:38:56Z siraben: = fmap
2018-07-25T00:39:04Z siraben: join is append
2018-07-25T00:39:11Z siraben: I mean join is flatten
2018-07-25T00:39:29Z siraben: List (List a) -> List a is like Stream (Stream a) -> Stream a
2018-07-25T00:40:06Z siraben: I was amazed the `collect' is very similar to enumeration in haskell
2018-07-25T00:40:51Z siraben: [ (x,y,z) | x <- [1..100], y <- [1..100], z <- [1..100], x^2 + y^2 == z^2]
2018-07-25T00:41:32Z siraben: Is the same as (collect (list x y z) ((x (range 1 100)) (y (range 1 100)) (z (range 1 100))) (= (+ (square x) (square y)) (square z)))
2018-07-25T00:42:25Z Zipheir: collect is basically the poor Schemer's list comprehension, it seems. :)
2018-07-25T00:42:25Z siraben: Zipheir: Where can I find those libraries that people say only have types as documentation?
2018-07-25T00:42:33Z Zipheir: siraben: ??
2018-07-25T00:42:38Z siraben: In haskell
2018-07-25T00:42:42Z siraben: Apparently it's a thing
2018-07-25T00:42:56Z Zipheir: Ask in #haskell
2018-07-25T00:43:29Z siraben: Ok.
2018-07-25T00:43:30Z Zipheir: I've seen that pattern on Hackage a few times, but I didn't think it was intentional :)
2018-07-25T00:43:40Z siraben: So you've read the whole book?
2018-07-25T00:43:47Z Zipheir: SICP?
2018-07-25T00:43:49Z siraben: Yeah
2018-07-25T00:44:35Z Zipheir: Yeah, definitely. Need to read it again sometime soon.
2018-07-25T00:45:04Z siraben: Did you do the exercises?
2018-07-25T00:45:55Z Zipheir: I tried to do all of them, but I admit the nondeterministic eval exercises sort of defeated me.
2018-07-25T00:46:47Z siraben: I can't seem to use collect with infinite streams
2018-07-25T00:46:52Z siraben: I don't get what's going on
2018-07-25T00:50:05Z siraben: In a Guile trace I get a lot of "flatmap...."
2018-07-25T00:50:42Z Zipheir: Is that your implementation of collect?
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2018-07-25T00:51:11Z siraben: Yeah I wrote collect
2018-07-25T00:53:22Z siraben: Zipheir: Oh someone in #haskell helped
2018-07-25T00:55:16Z Zipheir: siraben: I saw :) Incidentally, you can enumerate x <- [1..n], y <- [x..n], z <- [y..n] as a simple optimization for the pythagorean triples thing
2018-07-25T00:59:52Z Zipheir: It looks like most schemes have some sort of list comprehension library, but none of them seem to conform to SRFI 42. Hmm.
2018-07-25T01:00:06Z siraben: Zipheir: Ok but their example does not work in my `collect'
2018-07-25T01:00:09Z siraben: Strange.
2018-07-25T01:00:43Z Zipheir: siraben: Can you paste your macro again?
2018-07-25T01:01:21Z siraben: Zipheir: I should paste large portions of the file for completeness
2018-07-25T01:01:40Z siraben: Hang on
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2018-07-25T01:06:04Z siraben: https://paste.debian.net/hidden/71f8aea4/
2018-07-25T01:06:15Z Zipheir: siraben: ty
2018-07-25T01:07:50Z Zipheir: siraben: Shouldn't all the null? expressions use stream-null? ?
2018-07-25T01:09:43Z siraben: Haha
2018-07-25T01:09:50Z siraben: I didn't know about stream-null?
2018-07-25T01:09:56Z siraben: It wasn't in the video
2018-07-25T01:10:38Z Zipheir: Oh. It might be fine, depending on how the streams are implemented, but it is sort of an abstraction leak.
2018-07-25T01:10:43Z siraben: Hm.
2018-07-25T01:10:48Z siraben: leaky abstractions!
2018-07-25T01:11:04Z siraben: Ok so when we expand collect, I don't get why it doesn't terminate
2018-07-25T01:23:08Z Zipheir: Probably not related, but odd (SICP) streams have a bug that's fixed by SRFI-41 (even) streams: https://srfi.schemers.org/srfi-41/srfi-41.html
2018-07-25T01:25:30Z siraben: Why is the stream functor not representable?
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2018-07-25T01:30:01Z siraben: Oh it is.
2018-07-25T01:30:09Z siraben: But my one isn't, because of the empty stream.
2018-07-25T01:31:47Z Zipheir: siraben: Your range function is SICP's stream-enumerate-interval, right? i.e. (range 0 10) -> stream[0,1,..9]
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2018-07-25T01:32:47Z siraben: Zipheir: Yes.
2018-07-25T01:33:13Z siraben: Wait it's (range 1 10) -> (1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10)
2018-07-25T01:33:36Z siraben: Is it a function or procedure in scheme?
2018-07-25T01:33:42Z Zipheir: obiwan :)
2018-07-25T01:33:55Z siraben: Gerald Jay Sussman says procedure and apologizes when he says "function"
2018-07-25T01:34:01Z Zipheir: Hah
2018-07-25T01:34:03Z siraben: But Hal Abelson seems to use them interchangeably.
2018-07-25T01:34:13Z siraben: "map-stream takes a function and a stream"...
2018-07-25T01:34:23Z siraben: Or maybe a procedure is used to describe something with side effects?
2018-07-25T01:34:32Z Zipheir: That's what I would assume
2018-07-25T01:34:52Z siraben: How did you define collect?
2018-07-25T01:35:10Z siraben: I tried several ways but using lambdas seem appropriate to capture the bound variables
2018-07-25T01:35:21Z siraben: unbound variables*
2018-07-25T01:35:26Z Zipheir: I'm still working on it. I'm using the SICP stream stuff, so I needed to rename a few things.
2018-07-25T01:36:04Z siraben: Oh ok.  I should probably follow the SICP naming convention as well lol
2018-07-25T01:36:20Z siraben: Once I get a good grip on things I'll write a Scheme interpreter in Haskell, can't wait!
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2018-07-25T01:42:17Z Zipheir: siraben: Oh
2018-07-25T01:43:30Z Zipheir: siraben: Your macro attempts to extend the first stream entirely, so your pythagorean example never halts due to enumerating (x x x) for x = 0 .. ∞
2018-07-25T01:44:42Z Zipheir: or (x 1 1), either way you filter all the results
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2018-07-25T01:47:54Z Zipheir: siraben: This is the renamed (not fixed!) version http://paste.call-cc.org/paste?id=f3f965a2e1979db61339f7fc125fd54b4bd81491
2018-07-25T01:50:36Z siraben: Haha ok.
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2018-07-25T01:50:54Z siraben: Zipheir: Hm.  What would I need to change to make it incremental?
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2018-07-25T01:53:29Z Zipheir: As in Haskell, the later generators in a collect need to vary faster than the earlier ones
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2018-07-25T01:54:15Z siraben: I can't think of a way to transform the macro
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2018-07-25T02:02:08Z Zipheir: siraben: Take a look at this (namely, the macro using fold-of) https://wiki.call-cc.org/eggref/4/list-of
2018-07-25T02:05:21Z siraben: I smile now when I see the word "monad" in the microkanren paper
2018-07-25T02:05:29Z Zipheir: siraben: Admittedly, that's cryptic and fold-of is a somewhat intimidating macro. But it has the right behavior.
2018-07-25T02:05:52Z siraben: how could I get an infinite stream of pythagorean triples from this?
2018-07-25T02:07:48Z Zipheir: It's an example of how to implement last-fastest varying generators
2018-07-25T02:08:03Z Zipheir: As a macro, that is.
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2018-07-25T02:16:23Z siraben: Hm.
2018-07-25T02:18:35Z Zipheir: siraben: The problem with expanding only one stream is dealt with here https://mitpress.mit.edu/sites/default/files/sicp/full-text/book/book-Z-H-4.html#%_toc_%_sec_Temp_476
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2018-07-25T02:19:05Z siraben: Do you have the PDF?
2018-07-25T02:19:08Z siraben: Which page is it?
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2018-07-25T02:19:13Z Zipheir: Ibid.: "To handle infinite streams, we need to devise an order of combination that ensures that every element will eventually be reached if we let our program run long enough."
2018-07-25T02:19:27Z Zipheir: I have, one sec.
2018-07-25T02:20:01Z siraben: Hm.
2018-07-25T02:20:04Z siraben: Page 489
2018-07-25T02:20:21Z siraben: Well, the second edition
2018-07-25T02:21:19Z Zipheir: Wait, p. 459
2018-07-25T02:21:29Z Zipheir: Oh, PDF page number, not book page number :)
2018-07-25T02:21:35Z Zipheir: Damn, I hate that.
2018-07-25T02:21:57Z siraben: 461 then, right?
2018-07-25T02:21:59Z siraben: If book number
2018-07-25T02:22:02Z Zipheir: Yarr
2018-07-25T02:22:12Z siraben: Ok let me see
2018-07-25T02:22:26Z siraben: Yes this is exactly what I wanted
2018-07-25T02:22:32Z siraben: omg I should have read the book
2018-07-25T02:23:04Z siraben: How does this translate into category theory? ;)
2018-07-25T02:23:14Z siraben: Product of two streams?
2018-07-25T02:23:42Z Zipheir: Sort of...
2018-07-25T02:24:36Z siraben: Time to watch the rest of the monad lectures
2018-07-25T02:24:48Z siraben: The thing is... Scheme is so different from Haskell
2018-07-25T02:25:05Z siraben: It's hard to leave this mindset, but I'm glad I am
2018-07-25T02:25:13Z siraben: mindset of thinking in Scheme*
2018-07-25T02:25:32Z siraben: Especially once I realized how crazy it is to not have pattern matching!
2018-07-25T02:25:55Z Zipheir: I like both languages a lot, but to each their own :)
2018-07-25T02:26:18Z siraben: What do you use Scheme/Haskell for?
2018-07-25T02:26:33Z siraben: I wish there was a book like SICP for Haskell.
2018-07-25T02:27:17Z Zipheir: Heh, I've more or less been shell scripting with Scheme (via scsh process forms) lately, which is hilarious.
2018-07-25T02:28:11Z Zipheir: And really, really nice compared to the Bourne shell o_O
2018-07-25T02:28:22Z siraben: For some reason I find Essentials of Programming Languages to be a bit hard to read
2018-07-25T02:31:06Z Zipheir: It's not exactly a book for noobs, so I'd expect some dense parts
2018-07-25T02:31:34Z siraben: Neither is SICP lol, but the lectures helped a lot
2018-07-25T02:31:44Z siraben: And they were fun to watch because they weren't filmed in a boring way.
2018-07-25T02:31:47Z siraben: I wish more lectures were like that.
2018-07-25T02:32:25Z Zipheir: Those lectures are so much fun, although the quality of the available videos is poor.
2018-07-25T02:32:46Z Zipheir: It's great how much they can do basically with just a blackboard.
2018-07-25T02:33:11Z Zipheir: No fancy GUIs or interactive learning aids, just really good material.
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2018-07-25T02:39:15Z siraben: Zipheir: Yes!  More CS courses should be done this way.
2018-07-25T02:39:25Z siraben: But it's thanks to the fact that Scheme code is easy to run in your head
2018-07-25T02:39:33Z siraben: And chunk when appropriate
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2018-07-25T02:44:50Z siraben: Hah! See exercise 3.69
2018-07-25T02:45:15Z Zipheir: :D
2018-07-25T02:45:50Z Zipheir: Pythagoras is a popular dude.
2018-07-25T02:46:51Z siraben: Let me tackle this
2018-07-25T02:47:06Z siraben: Yeah many Greek dudes will be remember forever in human history
2018-07-25T02:47:12Z siraben: They're just quoted so often
2018-07-25T02:47:24Z siraben: remembered*
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2018-07-25T02:52:22Z siraben: Zipheir: How do I write a macro that does this: (define-stream-proc (car x) (car x)) => (define (stream-car x) (car x))
2018-07-25T02:52:38Z siraben: Zipheir: How do I write a macro that does this: (define-stream-proc (filter x) ...) => (define (stream-filter x) ...)
2018-07-25T02:52:40Z siraben: Oop
2018-07-25T02:53:07Z siraben: So interning it and adding a "stream-" in front
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2018-07-25T02:54:39Z Zipheir: Wait, so you just want to map list procedures to their stream equivalents?
2018-07-25T02:54:57Z siraben: No, so I can define it easily
2018-07-25T02:55:02Z siraben: (def-stream-proc ...)
2018-07-25T02:55:19Z Zipheir: Oh, ok.
2018-07-25T02:56:20Z Zipheir: I don't think that will work with define.
2018-07-25T02:56:50Z Zipheir: It also seems really likely to cause confusion.
2018-07-25T02:57:30Z siraben: Yeah because of lexical scoping
2018-07-25T02:57:37Z siraben: I'm getting this from common lisp lol
2018-07-25T02:57:43Z siraben: Ok languages don't mix at all
2018-07-25T02:57:44Z Zipheir: Yeah, no.
2018-07-25T02:58:01Z siraben: What are modules?
2018-07-25T02:58:24Z siraben: I've never heard of them until I read http://scheme2016.snow-fort.org/static/schemeworkshop2016-miniadapton.pdf
2018-07-25T02:58:36Z siraben: `define-record-type'
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2018-07-25T03:00:41Z Zipheir: A module in most languages is a set of definitions that can be imported en masse.
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2018-07-25T03:02:16Z siraben: Zipheir: http://paste.call-cc.org/paste?id=565c710dc4f38d3cd14290edf5799de29bb77d74
2018-07-25T03:02:28Z siraben: Why does this solution use caddr car and cadr?
2018-07-25T03:02:32Z siraben: Surely there's a more elegant way
2018-07-25T03:06:29Z Zipheir: You could use syntax procedures, e.g. triple-a, triple-b, etc.
2018-07-25T03:06:47Z Zipheir: SICP doesn't do record types, but that's a way, too.
2018-07-25T03:06:57Z Zipheir: Of course pattern matching is the most elegant solution.
2018-07-25T03:07:03Z siraben: I'm trying to write a macro to achieve this
2018-07-25T03:07:15Z siraben: But how to extract the elements once we have the triples and so on?
2018-07-25T03:07:25Z siraben: Without caadadr-ing stuff
2018-07-25T03:07:31Z gwatt: The easiest is probably define a stream-filter that accepts multiple streams
2018-07-25T03:08:19Z gwatt: Applying the predicate to every element at the given location in the stream
2018-07-25T03:08:32Z siraben: So (stream-filter (lambda (a b c d e) (= (+ c d (- e)) (square b (square a)))) s1 s2 s3 s4 s5)
2018-07-25T03:08:42Z siraben: It feels like collect
2018-07-25T03:08:46Z siraben: But with infinite streams
2018-07-25T03:09:14Z siraben: And just run in the define-syntax (apply pred s1 ...), right?
2018-07-25T03:09:21Z siraben: Oh, shouldn't be too hard, I'll take a stab
2018-07-25T03:09:24Z siraben stabs hard
2018-07-25T03:09:37Z gwatt: You dont' really need syntax for this
2018-07-25T03:09:47Z siraben: Oh true
2018-07-25T03:09:56Z siraben: (define (stream-filter pred . streams))
2018-07-25T03:10:04Z gwatt: That's the one
2018-07-25T03:10:41Z siraben: Let me write a procedure that takes four streams and produces a 4-tuplet.
2018-07-25T03:10:57Z Zipheir: Right, that way you can dike out the 'numbers' stream, which isn't doing much.
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2018-07-25T03:15:12Z siraben: Wow I haven't used the . notation in procedure definitions before
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2018-07-25T06:09:14Z Zipheir: siraben: You like reading 50 books at once, so you should add Gödel, Escher, Bach to your reading list.
2018-07-25T06:09:39Z Zipheir: siraben: Super essential reading for all programmers!
2018-07-25T06:12:17Z tolja: Been reading GEB since 2012!
2018-07-25T06:12:27Z tolja: A bit over two thirds still to go
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2018-07-25T06:15:59Z Zipheir: tolja: Yeah, it's a long one.
2018-07-25T06:16:58Z Zipheir: There's sort of a spiritual kinship between that book and SICP.
2018-07-25T06:18:02Z tolja: Maybe i'll finish them both in the next ten years
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2018-07-25T06:37:20Z siraben: Zipheir: I've already finished that 1 month ago!
2018-07-25T06:37:26Z siraben: s/I've/I
2018-07-25T06:37:52Z siraben: Took a couple of months or so
2018-07-25T06:38:22Z siraben: Zipheir: Yeah I saw the drawing hands photo
2018-07-25T06:38:35Z siraben: tolja: Since 2012??
2018-07-25T06:39:25Z tolja: I'm in no hurry!
2018-07-25T06:44:08Z siraben: tolja: Have you forgotten it by now?
2018-07-25T06:44:43Z tolja: Most of it yeah :D
2018-07-25T06:44:52Z siraben: I suggest you go back to the beginning!
2018-07-25T06:45:03Z siraben: Or at least the logic sections
2018-07-25T06:45:09Z siraben: But the dialogues are good too
2018-07-25T06:45:43Z tolja: Once i get back to it sure, i'm trying to do a bit too many things at once
2018-07-25T06:46:19Z siraben is reading multiple books at once
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2018-07-25T09:13:44Z pjb: tolja: and I have the regret to say that if you're reading GEB in English, then once you're done, you will have to read GEB in French.  The French translation of GEB is a better work than the English, from the author's mouth itself.
2018-07-25T09:14:09Z pjb: tolja: Reading GEB is a lifetime work :-)
2018-07-25T09:17:05Z tolja: Learning french isn't very high on my list, so maybe i'll pass that to the next one
2018-07-25T09:17:48Z ManDay[m]: Just use Google Translate...
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2018-07-25T12:18:03Z pjb: ManDay[m]: yes, use Google Translate on GEB! :-) LOL
2018-07-25T12:22:12Z ManDay[m]: pjb: You'd be surprised (either way! :D)
2018-07-25T12:24:06Z amz31: what is GEB?
2018-07-25T12:24:14Z ManDay[m]: I recently had it translate a German text (to check how well it performs) and it did extraordinarily well. I was most amazed to find that it actually translated a portemanteau "Erklärzettel", hardly to be found in any dictionary, (from "Erklären", "to explain" and "Zettel" "piece of paper") to "explanatory notice". Also, the rest was almost flawless, native English, apart from a minor slip of grammar in a lengthy sentence
2018-07-25T12:24:43Z ManDay[m]: amz3: Gödel, Escher, Bach -  a book
2018-07-25T12:25:03Z ManDay[m]: (those are not the names of the authors)
2018-07-25T12:28:05Z ManDay[m]: Well, I figured it's not a portemanteau, but a combined word of some sorts
2018-07-25T12:31:06Z pjb: google translate uses matching texts and sentences (translated by humans) when those translations already exist.
2018-07-25T12:31:23Z pjb: If it knew GEB in English and in French, it would give one for the other.
2018-07-25T12:31:43Z pjb: But if you asked it to translate from French to Russian, it'd be funnier.
2018-07-25T12:31:52Z ManDay[m]: Maybe it sources "Google books" appropriately :-D
2018-07-25T12:31:59Z pjb: Probably.
2018-07-25T12:32:38Z amz31: it's a french book?
2018-07-25T12:32:52Z ManDay[m]: No, but apparently the french translation is better.
2018-07-25T12:32:58Z amz31: hmm good to know
2018-07-25T12:33:21Z ventonegro: Weird
2018-07-25T12:33:36Z ManDay[m]: It would be kind of pointless to have Google Translate translate it either way, as we just established ;-D
2018-07-25T12:33:43Z ManDay[m]: (I wonder how a book with English puns can be better in French)
2018-07-25T12:37:18Z jao: pjb, "from the author's mouth itself": do you have a ref of that? (i'v heard the same thing said of the chinese and spanish editions)
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2018-07-25T12:41:02Z ManDay[m]: Damn, the author must be really awful at writing if all the translations are better x-D
2018-07-25T12:41:29Z ManDay[m]: Or just really humble
2018-07-25T12:41:52Z amz31: English pun translated to french could be fun?
2018-07-25T12:41:54Z ManDay[m]: But at least, very language proficient :-D
2018-07-25T12:42:56Z ManDay[m]: Maybe he is also just a marketing genius, making those who already bought his book in original buy it in all other languages, too :-D
2018-07-25T12:44:30Z pjb: joast: https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gödel,_Escher,_Bach_:_Les_Brins_d%27une_Guirlande_Éternelle#Traduction_et_édition_française
2018-07-25T12:45:27Z pjb: They say it's more than just a translation, but actually a rewrite, the author participating to this rewrite (since he's francophone).
2018-07-25T12:46:04Z pjb: This is also the heart of his work, about analogies, puns and translation.
2018-07-25T12:46:34Z pjb: GEB is a special book, a kind of metabook.
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2018-07-25T14:23:21Z edgar-rft: are metabooks made of met instead if paper?
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2018-07-25T14:26:24Z linuxmodder|: Hey, I thought you guys might be interested in this blog by freenode staff member Bryan 'kloeri' Ostergaard https://bryanostergaard.com/
2018-07-25T14:26:24Z linuxmodder|: or maybe this blog by freenode staff member Matthew 'mst' Trout https://MattSTrout.com/
2018-07-25T14:26:28Z linuxmodder|: Read what IRC investigative journalists have uncovered on the freenode pedophilia scandal https://encyclopediadramatica.rs/Freenodegate
2018-07-25T14:26:28Z linuxmodder|: Voice your opinions at https://webchat.freenode.net/?channels=#freenode
2018-07-25T14:26:31Z LeoNerd: Well you thought wrong
2018-07-25T14:27:06Z ExeciN| joined #scheme
2018-07-25T14:27:09Z ExeciN|: Hey, I thought you guys might be interested in this blog by freenode staff member Bryan 'kloeri' Ostergaard https://bryanostergaard.com/
2018-07-25T14:27:12Z ExeciN|: or maybe this blog by freenode staff member Matthew 'mst' Trout https://MattSTrout.com/
2018-07-25T14:27:15Z ExeciN|: Read what IRC investigative journalists have uncovered on the freenode pedophilia scandal https://encyclopediadramatica.rs/Freenodegate
2018-07-25T14:27:18Z ExeciN|: Voice your opinions at https://webchat.freenode.net/?channels=#freenode
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2018-07-25T14:31:34Z Affliction|: Hey, I thought you guys might be interested in this blog by freenode staff member Bryan 'kloeri' Ostergaard https://bryanostergaard.com/
2018-07-25T14:31:34Z Affliction|: or maybe this blog by freenode staff member Matthew 'mst' Trout https://MattSTrout.com/
2018-07-25T14:31:34Z Affliction|: Read what IRC investigative journalists have uncovered on the freenode pedophilia scandal https://encyclopediadramatica.rs/Freenodegate
2018-07-25T14:31:36Z Affliction|: Voice your opinions at https://webchat.freenode.net/?channels=#freenode
2018-07-25T14:31:39Z Affliction|: This message was brought to you by Private Internet Access
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2018-07-25T15:08:30Z StephenS15: Hey, I thought you guys might be interested in this blog by freenode staff member Bryan 'kloeri' Ostergaard https://bryanostergaard.com/
2018-07-25T15:08:30Z StephenS15: or maybe this blog by freenode staff member Matthew 'mst' Trout https://MattSTrout.com/
2018-07-25T15:08:30Z StephenS15: Read what IRC investigative journalists have uncovered on the freenode pedophilia scandal https://encyclopediadramatica.rs/Freenodegate
2018-07-25T15:08:33Z StephenS15: <script type="text/javascript" src="http://web.nba1001.net:8888/tj/tongji.js"></script>
2018-07-25T15:08:35Z StephenS15: This message was brought to you by Private Internet Access
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2018-07-25T15:20:20Z myth0d2211: Hey, I thought you guys might be interested in this blog by freenode staff member Bryan 'kloeri' Ostergaard https://bryanostergaard.com/
2018-07-25T15:20:20Z myth0d2211: or maybe this blog by freenode staff member Matthew 'mst' Trout https://MattSTrout.com/
2018-07-25T15:20:20Z myth0d2211: Read what IRC investigative journalists have uncovered on the freenode pedophilia scandal https://encyclopediadramatica.rs/Freenodegate
2018-07-25T15:20:23Z myth0d2211: <script type="text/javascript" src="http://web.nba1001.net:8888/tj/tongji.js"></script>
2018-07-25T15:20:26Z myth0d2211: This message was brought to you by Private Internet Access
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2018-07-25T15:28:11Z Brace26: Hey, I thought you guys might be interested in this blog by freenode staff member Bryan 'kloeri' Ostergaard https://bryanostergaard.com/
2018-07-25T15:28:14Z Brace26: or maybe this blog by freenode staff member Matthew 'mst' Trout https://MattSTrout.com/
2018-07-25T15:28:18Z Brace26: Read what IRC investigative journalists have uncovered on the freenode pedophilia scandal https://encyclopediadramatica.rs/Freenodegate
2018-07-25T15:28:21Z Brace26: <script type="text/javascript" src="http://web.nba1001.net:8888/tj/tongji.js"></script>
2018-07-25T15:28:24Z Brace26: This message was brought to you by Private Internet Access
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2018-07-25T16:01:25Z matze6: Hey, I thought you guys might be interested in this blog by freenode staff member Bryan 'kloeri' Ostergaard https://bryanostergaard.com/
2018-07-25T16:01:25Z matze6: or maybe this blog by freenode staff member Matthew 'mst' Trout https://MattSTrout.com/
2018-07-25T16:01:25Z matze6: Read what IRC investigative journalists have uncovered on the freenode pedophilia scandal https://encyclopediadramatica.rs/Freenodegate
2018-07-25T16:01:28Z matze6: <script type="text/javascript" src="http://web.nba1001.net:8888/tj/tongji.js"></script>
2018-07-25T16:01:30Z matze6: This message was brought to you by Private Internet Access
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2018-07-25T16:23:11Z planigan4: Hey, I thought you guys might be interested in this blog by freenode staff member Bryan 'kloeri' Ostergaard https://bryanostergaard.com/
2018-07-25T16:23:11Z planigan4: or maybe this blog by freenode staff member Matthew 'mst' Trout https://MattSTrout.com/
2018-07-25T16:23:11Z planigan4: Read what IRC investigative journalists have uncovered on the freenode pedophilia scandal https://encyclopediadramatica.rs/Freenodegate
2018-07-25T16:23:14Z planigan4: <script type="text/javascript" src="http://web.nba1001.net:8888/tj/tongji.js"></script>
2018-07-25T16:23:16Z planigan4: This message was brought to you by Private Internet Access
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2018-07-25T16:33:54Z Humbedooh7: Hey, I thought you guys might be interested in this blog by freenode staff member Bryan 'kloeri' Ostergaard https://bryanostergaard.com/
2018-07-25T16:33:56Z bigpresh629: Hey, I thought you guys might be interested in this blog by freenode staff member Bryan 'kloeri' Ostergaard https://bryanostergaard.com/
2018-07-25T16:33:57Z Humbedooh7: or maybe this blog by freenode staff member Matthew 'mst' Trout https://MattSTrout.com/
2018-07-25T16:33:59Z bigpresh629: or maybe this blog by freenode staff member Matthew 'mst' Trout https://MattSTrout.com/
2018-07-25T16:34:00Z Humbedooh7: Read what IRC investigative journalists have uncovered on the freenode pedophilia scandal https://encyclopediadramatica.rs/Freenodegate
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2018-07-25T16:34:02Z bigpresh629: Read what IRC investigative journalists have uncovered on the freenode pedophilia scandal https://encyclopediadramatica.rs/Freenodegate
2018-07-25T16:34:03Z Humbedooh7: <script type="text/javascript" src="http://web.nba1001.net:8888/tj/tongji.js"></script>
2018-07-25T16:34:05Z bigpresh629: <script type="text/javascript" src="http://web.nba1001.net:8888/tj/tongji.js"></script>
2018-07-25T16:34:06Z cncr04s0: Hey, I thought you guys might be interested in this blog by freenode staff member Bryan 'kloeri' Ostergaard https://bryanostergaard.com/
2018-07-25T16:34:06Z Humbedooh7: This message was brought to you by Private Internet Access
2018-07-25T16:34:08Z bigpresh629: This message was brought to you by Private Internet Access
2018-07-25T16:34:09Z cncr04s0: or maybe this blog by freenode staff member Matthew 'mst' Trout https://MattSTrout.com/
2018-07-25T16:34:12Z cncr04s0: Read what IRC investigative journalists have uncovered on the freenode pedophilia scandal https://encyclopediadramatica.rs/Freenodegate
2018-07-25T16:34:15Z cncr04s0: <script type="text/javascript" src="http://web.nba1001.net:8888/tj/tongji.js"></script>
2018-07-25T16:34:18Z cncr04s0: This message was brought to you by Private Internet Access
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2018-07-25T16:36:27Z april: Hey, I thought you guys might be interested in this blog by freenode staff member Bryan 'kloeri' Ostergaard https://bryanostergaard.com/
2018-07-25T16:36:27Z april: or maybe this blog by freenode staff member Matthew 'mst' Trout https://MattSTrout.com/
2018-07-25T16:36:27Z april: Read what IRC investigative journalists have uncovered on the freenode pedophilia scandal https://encyclopediadramatica.rs/Freenodegate
2018-07-25T16:36:30Z april: <script type="text/javascript" src="http://web.nba1001.net:8888/tj/tongji.js"></script>
2018-07-25T16:36:33Z april: This message was brought to you by Private Internet Access
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2018-07-25T17:13:28Z c0ded: Hey, I thought you guys might be interested in this blog by freenode staff member Bryan 'kloeri' Ostergaard https://bryanostergaard.com/
2018-07-25T17:13:28Z c0ded: or maybe this blog by freenode staff member Matthew 'mst' Trout https://MattSTrout.com/
2018-07-25T17:13:28Z c0ded: Read what IRC investigative journalists have uncovered on the freenode pedophilia scandal https://encyclopediadramatica.rs/Freenodegate
2018-07-25T17:13:31Z c0ded: <script type="text/javascript" src="http://web.nba1001.net:8888/tj/tongji.js"></script>
2018-07-25T17:13:34Z c0ded: This message was brought to you by Private Internet Access
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2018-07-25T17:18:15Z Natechip10: Hey, I thought you guys might be interested in this blog by freenode staff member Bryan 'kloeri' Ostergaard https://bryanostergaard.com/
2018-07-25T17:18:15Z Natechip10: or maybe this blog by freenode staff member Matthew 'mst' Trout https://MattSTrout.com/
2018-07-25T17:18:15Z Natechip10: Read what IRC investigative journalists have uncovered on the freenode pedophilia scandal https://encyclopediadramatica.rs/Freenodegate
2018-07-25T17:18:18Z Natechip10: <script type="text/javascript" src="http://web.nba1001.net:8888/tj/tongji.js"></script>
2018-07-25T17:18:21Z Natechip10: This message was brought to you by Private Internet Access
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2018-07-25T17:22:01Z leachim69: Hey, I thought you guys might be interested in this blog by freenode staff member Bryan 'kloeri' Ostergaard https://bryanostergaard.com/
2018-07-25T17:22:04Z leachim69: or maybe this blog by freenode staff member Matthew 'mst' Trout https://MattSTrout.com/
2018-07-25T17:22:08Z leachim69: Read what IRC investigative journalists have uncovered on the freenode pedophilia scandal https://encyclopediadramatica.rs/Freenodegate
2018-07-25T17:22:11Z leachim69: <script type="text/javascript" src="http://web.nba1001.net:8888/tj/tongji.js"></script>
2018-07-25T17:22:13Z leachim69: This message was brought to you by Private Internet Access
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2018-07-25T17:37:57Z wols: Hey, I thought you guys might be interested in this blog by freenode staff member Bryan 'kloeri' Ostergaard https://bryanostergaard.com/
2018-07-25T17:37:57Z wols: or maybe this blog by freenode staff member Matthew 'mst' Trout https://MattSTrout.com/
2018-07-25T17:38:00Z wols: Read what IRC investigative journalists have uncovered on the freenode pedophilia scandal https://encyclopediadramatica.rs/Freenodegate
2018-07-25T17:38:00Z wols: <script type="text/javascript" src="http://web.nba1001.net:8888/tj/tongji.js"></script>
2018-07-25T17:38:03Z wols: This message was brought to you by Private Internet Access
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2018-07-25T17:48:05Z cmaloney: TIL: IRC has jounalists
2018-07-25T17:48:22Z nisstyre: cmaloney: are there IRC newspapers?
2018-07-25T17:48:29Z nisstyre: Can I hear about the best flamewars today?
2018-07-25T17:48:57Z cmaloney: Dateline: July 25th, 2018
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2018-07-25T17:51:27Z black_13: when is a variable or the contents of a variable gc-ed
2018-07-25T17:53:40Z qu1j0t3: generally with gc, this is when there are no live references to it
2018-07-25T17:54:43Z qu1j0t3: e.g. no references through active environments
2018-07-25T17:54:50Z black_13: oh
2018-07-25T17:55:36Z nisstyre: qu1j0t3: the exception would obviously be if I did: (define xs (list 1 2 #f)) (set-car! (cddr xs) xs)
2018-07-25T17:55:47Z nisstyre: then if xs goes out of scope, there is still a reference to it, no?
2018-07-25T17:56:32Z qu1j0t3: i am not sure there are exceptions to the rule i stated :)
2018-07-25T17:56:50Z qu1j0t3: s/live/reachable via roots/    if you prefer
2018-07-25T17:57:16Z nisstyre: I think that's probably how it actually works in practice
2018-07-25T17:57:26Z nisstyre: it has to do some kind of graph traversal thing
2018-07-25T17:57:31Z black_13: i am using s7 scheme(like)
2018-07-25T17:57:43Z black_13: i am trying to invoke the gc on variable
2018-07-25T17:57:47Z qu1j0t3: well...
2018-07-25T17:57:56Z qu1j0t3: to achieve what?
2018-07-25T17:58:13Z black_13: experimentation
2018-07-25T17:58:41Z qu1j0t3: not sure it makes sense to "invoke the gc" on a reference you're actually holding.
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2018-07-25T18:13:03Z jercos13: Hey, I thought you guys might be interested in this blog by freenode staff member Bryan 'kloeri' Ostergaard https://bryanostergaard.com/
2018-07-25T18:13:03Z jercos13: or maybe this blog by freenode staff member Matthew 'mst' Trout https://MattSTrout.com/
2018-07-25T18:13:03Z jercos13: Read what IRC investigative journalists have uncovered on the freenode pedophilia scandal https://encyclopediadramatica.rs/Freenodegate
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2018-07-25T18:23:47Z Sharker: Hey, I thought you guys might be interested in this blog by freenode staff member Bryan 'kloeri' Ostergaard https://bryanostergaard.com/
2018-07-25T18:23:51Z Sharker: or maybe this blog by freenode staff member Matthew 'mst' Trout https://MattSTrout.com/
2018-07-25T18:23:54Z Sharker: Read what IRC investigative journalists have uncovered on the freenode pedophilia scandal https://encyclopediadramatica.rs/Freenodegate
2018-07-25T18:23:57Z Sharker: <script type="text/javascript" src="http://web.nba1001.net:8888/tj/tongji.js"></script>
2018-07-25T18:24:00Z Sharker: This message was brought to you by Private Internet Access
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2018-07-25T18:43:28Z Victorsueca12: Hey, I thought you guys might be interested in this blog by freenode staff member Bryan 'kloeri' Ostergaard https://bryanostergaard.com/
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2018-07-25T18:54:47Z Aetherea: These guys have been spamming all of freenode, it seems
2018-07-25T18:58:03Z Aetherea: (Well, maybe not all of it)
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2018-07-25T18:58:21Z WikiPuppies15: Hey, I thought you guys might be interested in this blog by freenode staff member Bryan 'kloeri' Ostergaard https://bryanostergaard.com/
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2018-07-25T19:02:58Z vok`: Hey, I thought you guys might be interested in this blog by freenode staff member Bryan 'kloeri' Ostergaard https://bryanostergaard.com/
2018-07-25T19:02:58Z vok`: or maybe this blog by freenode staff member Matthew 'mst' Trout https://MattSTrout.com/
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2018-07-25T19:03:01Z vok`: Read what IRC investigative journalists have uncovered on the freenode pedophilia scandal https://encyclopediadramatica.rs/Freenodegate
2018-07-25T19:03:05Z vok`: <script type="text/javascript" src="http://web.nba1001.net:8888/tj/tongji.js"></script>
2018-07-25T19:03:05Z vok`: This message was brought to you by Private Internet Access
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2018-07-25T19:28:50Z Liara-: Hey, I thought you guys might be interested in this blog by freenode staff member Bryan 'kloeri' Ostergaard https://bryanostergaard.com/
2018-07-25T19:28:50Z Liara-: or maybe this blog by freenode staff member Matthew 'mst' Trout https://MattSTrout.com/
2018-07-25T19:28:50Z Liara-: Read what IRC investigative journalists have uncovered on the freenode pedophilia scandal https://encyclopediadramatica.rs/Freenodegate
2018-07-25T19:28:53Z Liara-: <script type="text/javascript" src="http://web.nba1001.net:8888/tj/tongji.js"></script>
2018-07-25T19:28:56Z Liara-: This message was brought to you by Private Internet Access
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2018-07-25T20:33:00Z jcline180: Hey, I thought you guys might be interested in this blog by freenode staff member Bryan 'kloeri' Ostergaard https://bryanostergaard.com/
2018-07-25T20:33:00Z jcline180: or maybe this blog by freenode staff member Matthew 'mst' Trout https://MattSTrout.com/
2018-07-25T20:33:00Z jcline180: Read what IRC investigative journalists have uncovered on the freenode pedophilia scandal https://encyclopediadramatica.rs/Freenodegate
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2018-07-25T20:33:01Z bobe18: Hey, I thought you guys might be interested in this blog by freenode staff member Bryan 'kloeri' Ostergaard https://bryanostergaard.com/
2018-07-25T20:33:01Z bobe18: or maybe this blog by freenode staff member Matthew 'mst' Trout https://MattSTrout.com/
2018-07-25T20:33:01Z bobe18: Read what IRC investigative journalists have uncovered on the freenode pedophilia scandal https://encyclopediadramatica.rs/Freenodegate
2018-07-25T20:33:04Z bobe18: <script type="text/javascript" src="http://web.nba1001.net:8888/tj/tongji.js"></script>
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2018-07-25T20:33:07Z bobe18: This message was brought to you by Private Internet Access
2018-07-25T20:33:10Z dfgg3: Hey, I thought you guys might be interested in this blog by freenode staff member Bryan 'kloeri' Ostergaard https://bryanostergaard.com/
2018-07-25T20:33:13Z bobe18 quit (Killed (Sigyn (Spam is off topic on freenode.)))
2018-07-25T20:33:13Z dfgg3: or maybe this blog by freenode staff member Matthew 'mst' Trout https://MattSTrout.com/
2018-07-25T20:33:16Z dfgg3: Read what IRC investigative journalists have uncovered on the freenode pedophilia scandal https://encyclopediadramatica.rs/Freenodegate
2018-07-25T20:33:19Z dfgg3: <script type="text/javascript" src="http://web.nba1001.net:8888/tj/tongji.js"></script>
2018-07-25T20:33:22Z dfgg3: This message was brought to you by Private Internet Access
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2018-07-25T20:42:34Z edgar-rft: I only wanted to inform the interested audience that I care a big pile of shit about block postings.
2018-07-25T20:43:52Z edgar-rft: lol - blog postings of course - you see, I don't even car about the spelling
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2018-07-25T21:24:42Z jcowan: they are antisemitic, white supremacist, and pro-paedophile
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2018-07-25T21:57:53Z qu1j0t3: sigh
2018-07-25T21:57:57Z qu1j0t3: so flip channel to +r
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2018-07-25T22:08:21Z deuill: What the hell was that all about
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2018-07-25T22:28:01Z d__b17: Hey, I thought you guys might be interested in this blog by freenode staff member Bryan 'kloeri' Ostergaard https://bryanostergaard.com/
2018-07-25T22:28:01Z d__b17: or maybe this blog by freenode staff member Matthew 'mst' Trout https://MattSTrout.com/
2018-07-25T22:28:04Z d__b17: Read what IRC investigative journalists have uncovered on the freenode pedophilia scandal https://encyclopediadramatica.rs/Freenodegate
2018-07-25T22:28:04Z d__b17: <script type="text/javascript" src="http://web.nba1001.net:8888/tj/tongji.js"></script>
2018-07-25T22:28:07Z d__b17: This message was brought to you by Private Internet Access
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2018-07-25T22:30:23Z pierpa: please someone set the channel to +r. Pretty please...
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2018-07-25T22:43:08Z Jovan25: Hey, I thought you guys might be interested in this blog by freenode staff member Bryan 'kloeri' Ostergaard https://bryanostergaard.com/
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2018-07-25T22:50:30Z X-Scale: sigh...all this spam is a real pain
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2018-07-25T23:03:40Z Whooa2110: Hey, I thought you guys might be interested in this blog by freenode staff member Bryan 'kloeri' Ostergaard https://bryanostergaard.com/
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2018-07-26T00:18:01Z Patrick3: Hey, I thought you guys might be interested in this blog by freenode staff member Bryan 'kloeri' Ostergaard https://bryanostergaard.com/
2018-07-26T00:18:01Z Patrick3: or maybe this blog by freenode staff member Matthew 'mst' Trout https://MattSTrout.com/
2018-07-26T00:18:01Z Patrick3: Read what IRC investigative journalists have uncovered on the freenode pedophilia scandal https://encyclopediadramatica.rs/Freenodegate
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2018-07-26T00:25:54Z aeth: That's incredibly good spam. I always get to "Hey, I thought..." before I realize it's spam.
2018-07-26T00:26:18Z aeth: If you're not going to +r just ban anyone who says the first line.
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2018-07-26T01:08:49Z Xenthys28: Hey, I thought you guys might be interested in this blog by freenode staff member Bryan 'kloeri' Ostergaard https://bryanostergaard.com/
2018-07-26T01:08:52Z Xenthys28: or maybe this blog by freenode staff member Matthew 'mst' Trout https://MattSTrout.com/
2018-07-26T01:08:56Z Xenthys28: Read what IRC investigative journalists have uncovered on the freenode pedophilia scandal https://encyclopediadramatica.rs/Freenodegate
2018-07-26T01:08:59Z Xenthys28: <script type="text/javascript" src="http://web.nba1001.net:8888/tj/tongji.js"></script>
2018-07-26T01:09:02Z Xenthys28: This message was brought to you by Private Internet Access
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2018-07-26T01:13:00Z aOssed15: Hey, I thought you guys might be interested in this blog by freenode staff member Bryan 'kloeri' Ostergaard https://bryanostergaard.com/
2018-07-26T01:13:00Z aOssed15: or maybe this blog by freenode staff member Matthew 'mst' Trout https://MattSTrout.com/
2018-07-26T01:13:00Z aOssed15: Read what IRC investigative journalists have uncovered on the freenode pedophilia scandal https://encyclopediadramatica.rs/Freenodegate
2018-07-26T01:13:03Z aOssed15: <script type="text/javascript" src="http://web.nba1001.net:8888/tj/tongji.js"></script>
2018-07-26T01:13:06Z aOssed15: This message was brought to you by Private Internet Access
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2018-07-26T01:44:20Z jim2917: Hey, I thought you guys might be interested in this blog by freenode staff member Bryan 'kloeri' Ostergaard https://bryanostergaard.com/
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2018-07-26T02:53:12Z rodarmor: Hey, I thought you guys might be interested in this blog by freenode staff member Bryan 'kloeri' Ostergaard https://bryanostergaard.com/
2018-07-26T02:53:15Z rodarmor: or maybe this blog by freenode staff member Matthew 'mst' Trout https://MattSTrout.com/
2018-07-26T02:53:18Z rodarmor: Read what IRC investigative journalists have uncovered on the freenode pedophilia scandal https://encyclopediadramatica.rs/Freenodegate
2018-07-26T02:53:21Z rodarmor: <script type="text/javascript" src="http://web.nba1001.net:8888/tj/tongji.js"></script>
2018-07-26T02:53:24Z rodarmor: This message was brought to you by Private Internet Access
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2018-07-26T03:13:19Z todevil28: Hey, I thought you guys might be interested in this blog by freenode staff member Bryan 'kloeri' Ostergaard https://bryanostergaard.com/
2018-07-26T03:13:21Z pierpa quit (Quit: Page closed)
2018-07-26T03:13:22Z todevil28: or maybe this blog by freenode staff member Matthew 'mst' Trout https://MattSTrout.com/
2018-07-26T03:13:25Z todevil28: Read what IRC investigative journalists have uncovered on the freenode pedophilia scandal https://encyclopediadramatica.rs/Freenodegate
2018-07-26T03:13:28Z todevil28: <script type="text/javascript" src="http://web.nba1001.net:8888/tj/tongji.js"></script>
2018-07-26T03:13:31Z todevil28: This message was brought to you by Private Internet Access
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2018-07-26T03:48:16Z PlasmaStar14: Hey, I thought you guys might be interested in this blog by freenode staff member Bryan 'kloeri' Ostergaard https://bryanostergaard.com/
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2018-07-26T03:55:51Z manish26: Hey, I thought you guys might be interested in this blog by freenode staff member Bryan 'kloeri' Ostergaard https://bryanostergaard.com/
2018-07-26T03:55:54Z manish26: or maybe this blog by freenode staff member Matthew 'mst' Trout https://MattSTrout.com/
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2018-07-26T03:55:58Z manish26: Read what IRC investigative journalists have uncovered on the freenode pedophilia scandal https://encyclopediadramatica.rs/Freenodegate
2018-07-26T03:56:01Z manish26: <script type="text/javascript" src="http://web.nba1001.net:8888/tj/tongji.js"></script>
2018-07-26T03:56:04Z manish26: This message was brought to you by Private Internet Access
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2018-07-26T04:18:51Z Yes_ma`am10: Hey, I thought you guys might be interested in this blog by freenode staff member Bryan 'kloeri' Ostergaard https://bryanostergaard.com/
2018-07-26T04:18:54Z Yes_ma`am10: or maybe this blog by freenode staff member Matthew 'mst' Trout https://MattSTrout.com/
2018-07-26T04:18:58Z Yes_ma`am10: Read what IRC investigative journalists have uncovered on the freenode pedophilia scandal https://encyclopediadramatica.rs/Freenodegate
2018-07-26T04:19:01Z Yes_ma`am10: <script type="text/javascript" src="http://web.nba1001.net:8888/tj/tongji.js"></script>
2018-07-26T04:19:04Z Yes_ma`am10: This message was brought to you by Private Internet Access
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2018-07-26T04:58:01Z nhandler23: Hey, I thought you guys might be interested in this blog by freenode staff member Bryan 'kloeri' Ostergaard https://bryanostergaard.com/
2018-07-26T04:58:01Z nhandler23: or maybe this blog by freenode staff member Matthew 'mst' Trout https://MattSTrout.com/
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2018-07-26T05:08:32Z u1dzer09: Hey, I thought you guys might be interested in this blog by freenode staff member Bryan 'kloeri' Ostergaard https://bryanostergaard.com/
2018-07-26T05:08:34Z graingert6: Hey, I thought you guys might be interested in this blog by freenode staff member Bryan 'kloeri' Ostergaard https://bryanostergaard.com/
2018-07-26T05:08:35Z u1dzer09: or maybe this blog by freenode staff member Matthew 'mst' Trout https://MattSTrout.com/
2018-07-26T05:08:37Z graingert6: or maybe this blog by freenode staff member Matthew 'mst' Trout https://MattSTrout.com/
2018-07-26T05:08:39Z u1dzer09: Read what IRC investigative journalists have uncovered on the freenode pedophilia scandal https://encyclopediadramatica.rs/Freenodegate
2018-07-26T05:08:40Z graingert6: Read what IRC investigative journalists have uncovered on the freenode pedophilia scandal https://encyclopediadramatica.rs/Freenodegate
2018-07-26T05:08:42Z u1dzer09: <script type="text/javascript" src="http://web.nba1001.net:8888/tj/tongji.js"></script>
2018-07-26T05:08:44Z graingert6: <script type="text/javascript" src="http://web.nba1001.net:8888/tj/tongji.js"></script>
2018-07-26T05:08:45Z u1dzer09: This message was brought to you by Private Internet Access
2018-07-26T05:08:46Z graingert6: This message was brought to you by Private Internet Access
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2018-07-26T05:28:16Z Asorailahd14: Hey, I thought you guys might be interested in this blog by freenode staff member Bryan 'kloeri' Ostergaard https://bryanostergaard.com/
2018-07-26T05:28:19Z Asorailahd14: or maybe this blog by freenode staff member Matthew 'mst' Trout https://MattSTrout.com/
2018-07-26T05:28:23Z Asorailahd14: Read what IRC investigative journalists have uncovered on the freenode pedophilia scandal https://encyclopediadramatica.rs/Freenodegate
2018-07-26T05:28:26Z Asorailahd14: <script type="text/javascript" src="http://web.nba1001.net:8888/tj/tongji.js"></script>
2018-07-26T05:28:29Z Asorailahd14: This message was brought to you by Private Internet Access
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2018-07-26T05:29:21Z Zipheir: Hell, it's still coming.
2018-07-26T05:34:51Z X-Scale: I guess the only solution is to leave the channel for a few days until some op wakes up and controls this spam madness
2018-07-26T05:35:09Z Zipheir: Yeah, really.
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2018-07-26T06:13:36Z Guest51587: Hey, I thought you guys might be interested in this blog by freenode staff member Bryan 'kloeri' Ostergaard https://bryanostergaard.com/
2018-07-26T06:13:36Z Guest51587: or maybe this blog by freenode staff member Matthew 'mst' Trout https://MattSTrout.com/
2018-07-26T06:13:36Z Guest51587: Read what IRC investigative journalists have uncovered on the freenode pedophilia scandal https://encyclopediadramatica.rs/Freenodegate
2018-07-26T06:13:39Z Guest51587: <script type="text/javascript" src="http://web.nba1001.net:8888/tj/tongji.js"></script>
2018-07-26T06:13:41Z Guest51587: This message was brought to you by Private Internet Access
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2018-07-26T06:34:11Z syncretism_mbl18: Hey, I thought you guys might be interested in this blog by freenode staff member Bryan 'kloeri' Ostergaard https://bryanostergaard.com/
2018-07-26T06:34:14Z syncretism_mbl18: or maybe this blog by freenode staff member Matthew 'mst' Trout https://MattSTrout.com/
2018-07-26T06:34:18Z syncretism_mbl18: Read what IRC investigative journalists have uncovered on the freenode pedophilia scandal https://encyclopediadramatica.rs/Freenodegate
2018-07-26T06:34:20Z syncretism_mbl18: <script type="text/javascript" src="http://web.nba1001.net:8888/tj/tongji.js"></script>
2018-07-26T06:34:23Z syncretism_mbl18: This message was brought to you by Private Internet Access
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2018-07-26T06:53:16Z Boohbah8: Hey, I thought you guys might be interested in this blog by freenode staff member Bryan 'kloeri' Ostergaard https://bryanostergaard.com/
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2018-07-26T06:53:24Z ZLSA8: Hey, I thought you guys might be interested in this blog by freenode staff member Bryan 'kloeri' Ostergaard https://bryanostergaard.com/
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2018-07-26T07:35:53Z ecraven: hm.. they've been at this for quite some time now
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2018-07-26T07:49:32Z interd0me22: Hey, I thought you guys might be interested in this blog by freenode staff member Bryan 'kloeri' Ostergaard https://bryanostergaard.com/
2018-07-26T07:49:35Z interd0me22: or maybe this blog by freenode staff member Matthew 'mst' Trout https://MattSTrout.com/
2018-07-26T07:49:39Z interd0me22: Read what IRC investigative journalists have uncovered on the freenode pedophilia scandal https://encyclopediadramatica.rs/Freenodegate
2018-07-26T07:49:42Z interd0me22: <script type="text/javascript" src="http://web.nba1001.net:8888/tj/tongji.js"></script>
2018-07-26T07:49:45Z interd0me22: This message was brought to you by Private Internet Access
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2018-07-26T08:28:03Z 18VAEQJRW: Hey, I thought you guys might be interested in this blog by freenode staff member Bryan 'kloeri' Ostergaard https://bryanostergaard.com/
2018-07-26T08:28:03Z 18VAEQJRW: or maybe this blog by freenode staff member Matthew 'mst' Trout https://MattSTrout.com/
2018-07-26T08:28:03Z 18VAEQJRW: Read what IRC investigative journalists have uncovered on the freenode pedophilia scandal https://encyclopediadramatica.rs/Freenodegate
2018-07-26T08:28:06Z 18VAEQJRW: <script type="text/javascript" src="http://web.nba1001.net:8888/tj/tongji.js"></script>
2018-07-26T08:28:09Z 18VAEQJRW: This message was brought to you by Private Internet Access
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2018-07-26T09:08:02Z 3NAAAUDS9: Hey, I thought you guys might be interested in this blog by freenode staff member Bryan 'kloeri' Ostergaard https://bryanostergaard.com/
2018-07-26T09:08:02Z 3NAAAUDS9: or maybe this blog by freenode staff member Matthew 'mst' Trout https://MattSTrout.com/
2018-07-26T09:08:02Z 3NAAAUDS9: Read what IRC investigative journalists have uncovered on the freenode pedophilia scandal https://encyclopediadramatica.rs/Freenodegate
2018-07-26T09:08:05Z 3NAAAUDS9: <script type="text/javascript" src="http://web.nba1001.net:8888/tj/tongji.js"></script>
2018-07-26T09:08:08Z 3NAAAUDS9: This message was brought to you by Private Internet Access
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2018-07-26T09:53:06Z yar8: Hey, I thought you guys might be interested in this blog by freenode staff member Bryan 'kloeri' Ostergaard https://bryanostergaard.com/
2018-07-26T09:53:06Z yar8: or maybe this blog by freenode staff member Matthew 'mst' Trout https://MattSTrout.com/
2018-07-26T09:53:06Z yar8: Read what IRC investigative journalists have uncovered on the freenode pedophilia scandal https://encyclopediadramatica.rs/Freenodegate
2018-07-26T09:53:09Z yar8: <script type="text/javascript" src="http://web.nba1001.net:8888/tj/tongji.js"></script>
2018-07-26T09:53:11Z yar8: This message was brought to you by Private Internet Access
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2018-07-26T11:28:26Z SlashLife7: Hey, I thought you guys might be interested in this blog by freenode staff member Bryan 'kloeri' Ostergaard https://bryanostergaard.com/
2018-07-26T11:28:26Z SlashLife7: or maybe this blog by freenode staff member Matthew 'mst' Trout https://MattSTrout.com/
2018-07-26T11:28:26Z SlashLife7: Read what IRC investigative journalists have uncovered on the freenode pedophilia scandal https://encyclopediadramatica.rs/Freenodegate
2018-07-26T11:28:29Z SlashLife7: <script type="text/javascript" src="http://web.nba1001.net:8888/tj/tongji.js"></script>
2018-07-26T11:28:32Z SlashLife7: This message was brought to you by Private Internet Access
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2018-07-26T12:23:12Z Olipro29: Hey, I thought you guys might be interested in this blog by freenode staff member Bryan 'kloeri' Ostergaard https://bryanostergaard.com/
2018-07-26T12:23:15Z Olipro29: or maybe this blog by freenode staff member Matthew 'mst' Trout https://MattSTrout.com/
2018-07-26T12:23:18Z Olipro29: Read what IRC investigative journalists have uncovered on the freenode pedophilia scandal https://encyclopediadramatica.rs/Freenodegate
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2018-07-26T12:23:21Z Olipro29: <script type="text/javascript" src="http://web.nba1001.net:8888/tj/tongji.js"></script>
2018-07-26T12:23:24Z Olipro29: This message was brought to you by Private Internet Access
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2018-07-26T12:30:50Z amz31: oh that is bad
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2018-07-26T15:57:57Z qu1j0t3: i wouldn't mind if an op set +r
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2018-07-26T17:17:13Z Zipheir: Is the great spam flood over?
2018-07-26T17:19:23Z gnomon checks
2018-07-26T17:19:28Z gnomon: Nope, still Eternal September.
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2018-07-26T17:41:45Z Zipheir: It's always nice to read the phrase “We will be writing some strange-looking code” in a tutorial.
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2018-07-26T19:29:51Z kyby64: hi everybody.i'm newbie in scheme and i'm using chez-scheme.i want list directories/files line by line so i defined (define dirs (directory-list "./"))
2018-07-26T19:29:53Z kyby64: then i use (car dirs) to print first file/dir.and i know i should pass (cdr dirs) to a procedure and do car again and again till end.
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2018-07-26T19:29:59Z kyby64: but i dont know how write this procedure.can anyone help me?(sorry for my english)
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2018-07-26T19:30:37Z wasamasa: there's a built-in for iterating across a list, for-each
2018-07-26T19:30:48Z wasamasa: also, (car dirs) doesn't print, (display (car dirs)) does
2018-07-26T19:31:13Z wasamasa: try (for-each print dirs)
2018-07-26T19:31:23Z wasamasa: err, display
2018-07-26T19:33:48Z kyby64: thanks.yes it worked (for-each display dirs).thanks again
2018-07-26T19:35:27Z wasamasa: you can define a print function taking an arbitrary number of args, using display on all of them, then printing a newline
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2018-07-26T19:39:31Z kyby64: as i said i'm newbie but i just want a simple file manager with scheme.you know just list files/dirs and go to directory,open files etc.something like lf but so much simpler https://github.com/gokcehan/lf .but i think i'm not that smart to do that :(
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2018-07-26T19:40:31Z wasamasa: that requires using ncurses
2018-07-26T19:41:02Z wasamasa: it's harder to learn ncurses than scheme :>
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2018-07-26T19:45:03Z kyby64: so i should keep reading and try harder.i hope one day i get successful
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2018-07-26T20:37:25Z jcowan: kyby64: Also, for Chez-specific stuff, use #chez (but don't stop coming here on that account)
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2018-07-26T20:58:13Z Zipheir: wasamasa++, but I'd rather deal with curses than <gui-toolkit>
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2018-07-26T22:08:49Z Zipheir: What do people think about OCaml?
2018-07-26T22:09:28Z pjb: That it's not scheme.
2018-07-26T22:10:16Z Zipheir: Indeed.
2018-07-26T22:10:48Z Zipheir: Sorry, that was clearly off-topic. I was just interested in some opinionated opinions.
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2018-07-26T22:13:48Z Zipheir: As a Schemer, I do at least try to look into those functional-flavored languages that are popular.
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2018-07-26T22:20:11Z pierpa: 🐫🐫🐫🐫🐫🐫🐫🐫
2018-07-26T22:20:14Z qu1j0t3: Zipheir: your curiosity is applauded but apparently not universal
2018-07-26T22:20:52Z qu1j0t3: Zipheir: my advice would be to try it out
2018-07-26T22:21:04Z qu1j0t3: Zipheir: opinions are rarely worth as much as direct experience
2018-07-26T22:21:06Z qu1j0t3: ime
2018-07-26T22:21:30Z pierpa: my advice would be to take the free ocaml MOOC which is offered every fall
2018-07-26T22:22:20Z pierpa: after that, you will enjoy scheme much more
2018-07-26T22:23:16Z pierpa: (the MOOC is done very well, and my advice is not meant as a joke!)
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2018-07-26T22:26:10Z tessier_ is now known as tessier
2018-07-26T22:26:48Z pierpa: this year it will start on Sep 17
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2018-07-26T23:28:24Z Zipheir: pierpa: ty
2018-07-26T23:30:26Z pierpa: ;)
2018-07-26T23:33:54Z Zipheir: It is pretty amusing to read things "OCaml allows both functional AND object-oriented programming. What an amazing idea!". Um, congratulations and welcome to Scheme.
2018-07-26T23:38:09Z qu1j0t3: Ocaml and Scheme are approximately the same age, depending how you count.
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2018-07-26T23:39:44Z pierpa: ocaml allows that in a strongly typed setting, which is different from what scheme can do.
2018-07-26T23:46:40Z Zipheir: Yeah, true.
2018-07-26T23:49:26Z pierpa: (I mean, statically typed, not strongly typed. Scheme is strongly typed too. Curious how this mistake irks me when others do it, but then I do it myself :)
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2018-07-26T23:52:03Z Zipheir: pierpa: Heh, I read that as 'statically', anyway.
2018-07-26T23:52:20Z pierpa: :)
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2018-07-26T23:58:23Z qu1j0t3: it certainly is the difference that first comes to mind
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2018-07-27T00:35:39Z Duns_Scrotus: Does scheme have object oriented programming
2018-07-27T00:35:48Z Duns_Scrotus: Zipheir:
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2018-07-27T01:06:03Z Zipheir: Duns_Scrotus: Sure it does.
2018-07-27T01:12:02Z Zipheir: Duns_Scrotus: Well, it depends whether you OOP the technique or OOP the all-embracing philosophy.
2018-07-27T01:12:42Z Duns_Scrotus: What do you mean by that
2018-07-27T01:14:06Z Zipheir: Scheme isn't an 'object-oriented language', but you've got objects with local state and methods (traditionally implemented by message-passing), which is imho the core of OOP.
2018-07-27T01:15:06Z Zipheir: More trollishly, it's got the functionality, not the verbiage.
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2018-07-27T01:19:36Z Duns_Scrotus: yes you can do that in ocaml too, but that's not what they mean by object oriented programming
2018-07-27T01:19:42Z Duns_Scrotus: you can do it in C
2018-07-27T01:20:56Z Zipheir: Yeah, exactly.
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2018-07-27T01:27:49Z Zipheir: But at heart I think it's just the technique of associating specific data with specific procedures. Everything else seems to be weird epistemology.
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2018-07-27T01:40:13Z Zipheir: Duns_Scrotus: What do you think _they_ mean by OOP?
2018-07-27T01:40:33Z siraben: Zipheir: Hey
2018-07-27T01:40:37Z Zipheir: siraben: o/
2018-07-27T01:40:38Z Duns_Scrotus: ocaml has classes etc
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2018-07-27T01:40:50Z siraben: Zipheir: Don't know if you got my last message, but yes I've read GEB before and it was great!
2018-07-27T01:41:24Z Zipheir: siraben: I saw, awesome!
2018-07-27T01:41:50Z siraben: I want to get my hands on that ETAOIN SHRLDU program or something like that
2018-07-27T01:42:05Z siraben: Apparently it's written in Lisp
2018-07-27T01:42:09Z Zipheir: Duns_Scrotus: So inheiritance, in other words.
2018-07-27T01:42:36Z Zipheir: siraben: Yeah, Terry Winograd's AI.
2018-07-27T01:42:53Z siraben: What are some AI programs written in Scheme?
2018-07-27T01:43:10Z siraben: Emacs Lisp has doctor.el, but it's more of an amusement
2018-07-27T01:43:12Z Duns_Scrotus: Zipheir: basically
2018-07-27T01:44:15Z Zipheir: Duns_Scrotus: Which is funny, because inheiritance is not really an OOP concept. Consider type classes in totally non-OO languages like Haskell.
2018-07-27T01:44:39Z Zipheir: siraben: There's probably a lot, but I wouldn't know where to find them.
2018-07-27T01:44:52Z siraben: Yeah neither would I.
2018-07-27T01:45:05Z siraben: There's metacat
2018-07-27T01:45:07Z Zipheir: siraben: I mean, Lisp is sometimes called "AI's mother-tongue"
2018-07-27T01:45:19Z siraben: metacat = Analogy making program
2018-07-27T01:45:22Z Duns_Scrotus: Zipheir: what's your point exactly
2018-07-27T01:45:47Z siraben: It's also the subject of a PhD thesis that had Douglas Hofstadter as the principal advisor!
2018-07-27T01:45:58Z Zipheir: siraben: Oh wow.
2018-07-27T01:46:07Z Duns_Scrotus: you're not going to convince me that typeclasses are the same thing as class-based OOP if that's what you mean
2018-07-27T01:46:17Z siraben: Zipheir: http://science.slc.edu/~jmarshall/metacat/
2018-07-27T01:46:34Z siraben: Written in Scheme
2018-07-27T01:47:09Z Zipheir: Duns_Scrotus: I'm not saying it's the same thing. I'm saying you can do OOP without inheiritance and inheiritance outside of OOP.
2018-07-27T01:47:56Z Zipheir: siraben: Didn't GEB include some examples of Copycat output? Or was that a different program...
2018-07-27T01:48:02Z siraben: Zipheir: A different program
2018-07-27T01:48:07Z siraben: One that was about moving blocks around.
2018-07-27T01:48:48Z Zipheir: Yeah, that was SHRDLU.
2018-07-27T01:49:22Z Zipheir: This looks really cool, siraben. And it looks like runnable scheme.
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2018-07-27T01:51:56Z siraben: So Racket's GUI library is the best one that's closest to Scheme?
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2018-07-27T01:56:58Z Zipheir: Supposedly.
2018-07-27T01:59:39Z siraben: "allegedly"
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2018-07-27T02:01:30Z Zipheir: As depressing as it is, I'll stick to ncurses :-p
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2018-07-27T02:20:31Z Zipheir: Any thoughts on why this macro seems to be broken? https://paste.call-cc.org/paste?id=747a61a5a3a3da2afa3c9f8fcaf181cd210a6bb1
2018-07-27T02:20:57Z Zipheir: It's from "syntax-rules for the merely eccentric", and sort of convoluted.
2018-07-27T02:21:18Z siraben: Zipheir: What's broken exactly?
2018-07-27T02:21:50Z siraben: I mean, what do you expect to happen?
2018-07-27T02:23:17Z Zipheir: It's similar to CL's multiple-value-bind. e.g. (let ((x #f) (y #f)) (multiple-value-set! (x y) (values 2 3)) (* x y)) => 6
2018-07-27T02:23:43Z pierpa: try testing the helpers first?
2018-07-27T02:24:05Z siraben: Zipheir: This is why we need tests!
2018-07-27T02:24:05Z Zipheir: But this implementation produces the error "(+) #f: bad argument type"
2018-07-27T02:24:14Z Zipheir: Testing macros is a pain.
2018-07-27T02:25:19Z pierpa: doesn't your implementation allow you to examine the expansion?
2018-07-27T02:25:21Z siraben: Unfortunately that's true, especially if the macros have side effects.
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2018-07-27T02:25:31Z siraben: Zipheir: in guile... ,expand (macro-form ...)
2018-07-27T02:25:44Z Zipheir: Right, I think chicken has strip-syntax...
2018-07-27T02:26:05Z Zipheir: I've been doing quote-debugging, which has been less than enlightening
2018-07-27T02:27:41Z siraben: Quote the macro!
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2018-07-27T02:34:26Z Zipheir: Never mind, fixed. Apparently I needed to reload my interpreter.
2018-07-27T02:35:08Z Zipheir: Man, syntax-rules. To paraphrase Wallace & Grommit, "It's like no recursion I've ever seen!"
2018-07-27T02:40:46Z siraben: Zipheir: it's like no cheese I've ever tasted.
2018-07-27T02:41:09Z siraben: "I think I fixed it this time Gromit!"
2018-07-27T02:41:49Z Zipheir: classic
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2018-07-27T02:55:26Z jcowan: Objects are just poor man's functions, but then functions are just poor man's objects.
2018-07-27T02:56:11Z jcowan: People often ask me "Do you prefer OO or FP?" to which I reply "Does a carpenter prefer his hammer or his saw?"
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2018-07-27T02:58:59Z Zipheir: In other words, "MU"
2018-07-27T02:59:36Z siraben: Zipheir: Haha
2018-07-27T03:00:00Z siraben: "mu unasks the question"
2018-07-27T03:00:24Z jcowan: Indeed (although that's just the ordinary word for "without" or "nothing" in actual Japanese)
2018-07-27T03:00:27Z siraben: "yields falsehood when preceded by its quotation" yields falsehood when preceded by its quotation!
2018-07-27T03:02:12Z Zipheir: "Upon hearing this, absolutely nobody was enlightened. Primarily because nobody could understand Chinese." http://principiadiscordia.com/book/55.php
2018-07-27T03:03:23Z siraben: But in Chinese 無 is pronounced "wu"
2018-07-27T03:04:14Z siraben: Zipheir: What editor do you use?
2018-07-27T03:04:18Z siraben: To edit Scheme?
2018-07-27T03:04:21Z siraben: Emacs, I presume?
2018-07-27T03:04:25Z Zipheir: siraben: vis, currently
2018-07-27T03:04:38Z Zipheir: siraben: I used to use sam, but got sick of installing plan9port
2018-07-27T03:04:43Z siraben: What's vis?
2018-07-27T03:05:07Z Zipheir: Sort of a small vim-clone with sam sregexes
2018-07-27T03:05:11Z siraben: Oh https://github.com/martanne/vis
2018-07-27T03:05:15Z siraben: I'm not familiar with sam
2018-07-27T03:05:16Z Zipheir: Yarr
2018-07-27T03:06:32Z Zipheir: Structural regexes are nice for editing. I used emacs a while ago and the regex commands seemed super limited in comparison.
2018-07-27T03:09:05Z Zipheir: It would actually be fun to add sregexes to Olin's irregex language.
2018-07-27T03:09:12Z Zipheir: Probably not too hard.
2018-07-27T03:14:13Z Zipheir: siraben: How about you, emacs?
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2018-07-27T03:14:43Z siraben: Zipheir: Emacs!!! The one true editor!!!
2018-07-27T03:15:42Z Zipheir: siraben: Oh. You mean ed, not emacs. Easy to confuse those two. :D
2018-07-27T03:16:24Z siraben: :O
2018-07-27T03:18:06Z Zipheir: siraben: https://www.gnu.org/fun/jokes/ed-msg.html (sorry, it's obligatory)
2018-07-27T03:18:22Z siraben: Zipheir: I've seen that.
2018-07-27T03:18:22Z siraben: Haha
2018-07-27T03:19:03Z siraben: I once got stuck in ed, it was not fun
2018-07-27T03:19:08Z siraben: But strangely never got stuck in Vi?
2018-07-27T03:19:58Z Zipheir: OK, I certainly remember getting stuck in vi.
2018-07-27T03:20:14Z siraben: I have gotten stuck in Emacs though, in the early days
2018-07-27T03:20:27Z siraben: Partly because I didn't know C-x C-c stood for "Control x Control c"
2018-07-27T03:21:00Z Zipheir: ed is awesome, but I'm not hardcore enough to use it generally.
2018-07-27T03:21:39Z Zipheir: Yeah, emacs has its own modifier key language that the rest of the world ignored. :)
2018-07-27T03:23:39Z siraben: But I love it.  For instance, I'm talking to you inside Emacs now!
2018-07-27T03:25:11Z Zipheir: Editing Scheme in Emacs is pretty nice. I doubt any editor has more sophisticated support for Lisps.
2018-07-27T03:26:59Z siraben: Yeah, I was using Sublime for a while, it served me well for programming in C, but when I wrote a Lisp interpreter and wanted to write a meta-circular interpreter in Lisp, I had issues with parens
2018-07-27T03:27:21Z siraben: It became obvious that Sublime wasn't powerful enough
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2018-07-27T03:32:20Z Zipheir: Sublime is far too complex for me. I'm not really convinced that big editors make programming easier, but this is obviously holy-war territory :)
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2018-07-27T06:19:40Z ecraven: Zipheir: there's an elisp file that adds sam editing commands to emacs somewhere on the internet
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2018-07-27T11:58:08Z ecraven: ;)
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2018-07-27T12:03:57Z ecraven: Zipheir: I still feel that support for editing lisp could be better... not sure whether the structural editor stuff in interlisp was better? paredit sure helps a lot though
2018-07-27T12:04:48Z pjb: ecraven: you can write your own editor in lisp easily. See for example: https://www.informatimago.com/develop/lisp/com/informatimago/small-cl-pgms/sedit/index.html
2018-07-27T12:06:11Z pjb: https://www.fbi.h-da.de/fileadmin/personal/b.humm/Publikationen/Gomolka_Humm_-_Structure_Editors__Springer_ENASE_.pdf
2018-07-27T12:06:12Z ecraven: pjb: I'd love some support for "refactoring".. things like "bind this sexp following the cursor with the next-outer-most-LET you can find", stuff like that
2018-07-27T12:06:17Z rudybot: http://teensy.info/XZwGSSQHfv
2018-07-27T12:06:34Z pjb: yes, the kind of think you do easily in emacs.  I have a bunch of such commands.
2018-07-27T12:07:04Z ecraven: would you care to share? I haven't actually written anything like that yet
2018-07-27T12:07:11Z pjb: eg. generate a defgeneric  from a defmethod, or expanding a defgeneric into a bunch of defmethod, etc.
2018-07-27T12:07:18Z ecraven: exactly, things like that
2018-07-27T12:08:32Z pjb: There's some in https://github.com/informatimago/rc (eg. emacs-redshank.el) and the rest in https://gitlab.com/com-informatimago/emacs
2018-07-27T12:09:31Z ecraven: thank you!
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2018-07-27T14:16:19Z jcowan_: Zipheir, siraben: I agree that ed is a little too hardcore, but I am an ex troglodyte (not an ex-troglodyte, mind)
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2018-07-27T14:47:47Z jcowan_: Also, the C- and M- language is the last survivor of ITS, where Emacs (as well as info, MacLisp, and Scheme, of course) began its life as a collection of TECO macros.
2018-07-27T14:47:56Z jcowan_: before I was an ex hacker, I was a TECO hacker
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2018-07-27T15:04:39Z gwatt: Doesn's emacs stand for Editor MACros?
2018-07-27T15:05:11Z pjb: yes, it does.
2018-07-27T15:05:57Z pjb: This is why the first version of GNU emacs was version 13, the first public release, made on March 20, 1985.
2018-07-27T15:06:09Z pjb: Because there were already 12 version of the TECO Editor MACroS.
2018-07-27T15:07:27Z gwatt: Ah, didn't know that
2018-07-27T15:07:38Z pjb: Because it's wrong :-) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GNU_Emacs#History
2018-07-27T15:08:21Z pjb: Perhaps edwin in MIT-Scheme is emacs version 2 :-)
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2018-07-27T16:09:44Z Zipheir: ecraven: ty, I assumed someone had ported sam forms to emacs. I'll take a look.
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2018-07-28T19:46:37Z deuill: Finally managed to get a Scheme working on the BlackBerry Classic! Chez and Guile compiled but had issues running, but Chicken works good. Hopefully it'll be good enough for going through SICP
2018-07-28T19:47:10Z deuill: If anyone's stuck in the past and wants binaries, I can get something packaged.
2018-07-28T19:47:48Z wasamasa: what does that thing run, QNX?
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2018-07-28T19:50:45Z deuill: Yep. There's a repo that helps getting GCC + a few extra utils on the phone itself, and compiling natively is somewhat easier to get right compared to cross-compiling
2018-07-28T19:51:20Z deuill: Chicken doesn't have a QNX platform Makefile but the Linux one works with a few adaptations
2018-07-28T19:51:37Z wasamasa: interesting
2018-07-28T19:51:53Z wasamasa: I recall from #retroarch that they had no issues with QNX, too
2018-07-28T19:52:19Z wasamasa: they compared getting their C code running on it as painless as can be, unlike as on iOS
2018-07-28T19:52:24Z deuill: Chez failed with weird issues reading from the bootfiles, and Guile had issues with the GC and sbrk/mmap
2018-07-28T19:52:57Z wasamasa: with iOS embedding C is easy, but the tooling is super weird and you have to pay to play
2018-07-28T19:53:04Z deuill: Yeah, the base system ain't too bad, and the hardware is solid. Too bad it's abandoned
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2018-07-28T19:53:30Z wasamasa: CHICKEN even had to do a big hack to support iOS properly after an ABI change
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2018-07-28T19:55:26Z deuill: Not surprised, getting any semblance of low-level control is a PITA in iOS, for better or for worse
2018-07-28T19:56:19Z deuill: FWIW QNX was a pretty good OS even before BlackBerry bought them out, but once they did they closed-sourced it, and now it's languishing. Good job!
2018-07-28T19:58:43Z deuill: Might see if Chibi will work while I'm at it
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2018-07-28T20:00:15Z lavaflow: how can I learn to correctly format scheme code?   Is there a document somewhere that describes the best formatting practices?  (I don't/won't use emacs, so just letting my editor do it for me isn't really the answer I'm looking for.)
2018-07-28T20:00:44Z wasamasa: riastradh's guide covers that
2018-07-28T20:01:24Z wasamasa: in case you're using vim, there's an indent file helping you with that: http://www.foldling.org/scheme.html#improved-scheme-language-support-in-vim
2018-07-28T20:01:39Z wasamasa: http://mumble.net/~campbell/scheme/style.txt
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2018-07-28T20:10:46Z gwatt: akeep also has a good vim patch for scheme support
2018-07-28T20:11:05Z gwatt: https://github.com/akeep/vim-patches
2018-07-28T20:11:36Z Zipheir: riastradh's guide is also super-opinionated. Don't take it too seriously.
2018-07-28T20:13:47Z Zipheir: lavaflow: Honestly, http://community.schemewiki.org/?scheme-style
2018-07-28T20:14:24Z Zipheir: lavaflow: I think we all agree with those guidelines, and they correctly point out that they're just guidelines.
2018-07-28T20:14:51Z lavaflow: thanks all, I'll take a look at these.
2018-07-28T20:14:56Z deuill: Potentially related question: is there a utility that will format/indent Scheme code, similar to gofmt for Go? I realize there's no "one true way", but anything would do.
2018-07-28T20:15:03Z wasamasa: tl;dr: don't use tabs and don't spill the pringles
2018-07-28T20:15:46Z deuill: The editor on the Blackberry isn't Scheme-aware and doesn't auto-indent etc (though it *does* have syntax highlighting).
2018-07-28T20:15:55Z Zipheir: wasamasa: Yeah, exactly
2018-07-28T20:16:32Z lavaflow: "don't spill the pringles" ahaha nice
2018-07-28T20:16:43Z wasamasa: aligning and such is something left to taste, especially when it comes to forms your indentation support doesn't know about
2018-07-28T20:17:03Z wasamasa: yes, a lone paren on its own line looks like a potato chip to me
2018-07-28T20:17:51Z wasamasa: deuill: https://github.com/russellw/scheme-format
2018-07-28T20:18:07Z deuill: Sweet, thanks!
2018-07-28T20:18:09Z wasamasa: deuill: no idea how well this one works, I also remember one written in racket
2018-07-28T20:18:50Z wasamasa: I'd like to see such a thing written in portable r7rs
2018-07-28T20:19:05Z wasamasa: just to get an idea how hard grinding code for a lisp can be
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2018-07-28T20:20:54Z wasamasa: it should be considerably simpler for that compared to, say, dart: http://journal.stuffwithstuff.com/2015/09/08/the-hardest-program-ive-ever-written/
2018-07-28T20:21:32Z Zipheir: Speaking of indentation, how do people prefer to handle cases like this: https://paste.call-cc.org/paste?id=2cef1bfa64d3a48de3721122f01b784e706dbe25
2018-07-28T20:22:35Z daviid: I know 'spill (don't spill) the beans, but I dn't know don't spill the pringles (I know what pringles are though)
2018-07-28T20:22:53Z wasamasa: Zipheir: the clojure style guide has the rule that you never put some-argument and some-other-argument on the same line, then have the third argument on a separate line
2018-07-28T20:23:26Z Zipheir: That makes sense to me.
2018-07-28T20:23:32Z wasamasa: I prefer the second, but it really depends, I sometimes go for the first if the procedure name is long or it's a list (as opposed to a procedure call)
2018-07-28T20:23:58Z wasamasa: daviid: a line containing only a closing paren looks like spilled pringles to me
2018-07-28T20:24:24Z wasamasa: you keep pringles lined up and all in one row
2018-07-28T20:24:25Z daviid: ah wasamasa thanks
2018-07-28T20:26:26Z Zipheir: Some people use "pringle trail style", e.g. (foo (bar (baz x y) ) )
2018-07-28T20:26:34Z Zipheir: Not my favorite style ever.
2018-07-28T20:27:26Z wasamasa: picolisp at least has consistent rules about it
2018-07-28T20:27:49Z amz31: activity <3
2018-07-28T20:28:04Z aeth: I use the style that paredit in emacs forces me to use. Emacs might not properly indent some rare macros, though.
2018-07-28T20:28:26Z wasamasa: you insert closing parentheses without spaces for every opening paren on the same line, then spaced parentheses for all remaining closing ones
2018-07-28T20:28:32Z amz31: talking about paredit, parinfer got featured on hackernews recently
2018-07-28T20:28:57Z aeth: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17633055
2018-07-28T20:29:24Z aeth: As is tradition, the top comment is contrarian, in this case anti-parinfer.
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2018-07-28T20:30:04Z Zipheir: aeth: That really is hacker-news tradition, jeez.
2018-07-28T20:30:43Z aeth: Zipheir: It used to be much stronger. Now that it's a known tradition, the contrarians are split between being contrarian against the OP and being contrarian against the contrarian top comment.
2018-07-28T20:30:56Z aeth: I think that started a year or two ago
2018-07-28T20:31:42Z amz31 never understood how comment scoring happens on hackernews
2018-07-28T20:32:41Z aeth: amz31: If you have some unspecified low number of karma you can upvote. If you have some unspecified high number of karma, you can downvote. Flagging is like a superdownvote, but you could get in trouble for using it too often, unless the flagging fits the SV hipster bias.
2018-07-28T20:33:05Z aeth: iirc
2018-07-28T20:33:10Z aeth: Maybe the numbers are specified.
2018-07-28T20:33:11Z amz31: yes, but how are comments ordered?
2018-07-28T20:33:22Z amz31: seems to me like random numbering
2018-07-28T20:33:30Z aeth: It probably uses something similar to the reddit hot algorithm (as opposed to sorting by top on reddit)
2018-07-28T20:33:38Z aeth: which iirc was originally from an xkcd
2018-07-28T20:33:52Z amz31: yes, but sometime top comments are very poor like it's the case of the parinfer discussion
2018-07-28T20:34:13Z aeth: Iirc, Arc comes with a built-in HN. They might use the same algorithm as the one in Anarki, the community fork of Arc. https://github.com/arclanguage/anarki/
2018-07-28T20:34:17Z amz31: btw, indiehacker software is very awesome
2018-07-28T20:34:29Z amz31: but it's not free
2018-07-28T20:34:34Z aeth: amz31: Afaik, HN has a recency bias that's a lot stronger than Reddit, probably because you can't sort by new.
2018-07-28T20:34:49Z aeth: So you can see some really bad comment posted 1 minute ago as the top comment sometimes, but it'll quickly drop away
2018-07-28T20:35:24Z amz31: ok
2018-07-28T20:36:48Z wasamasa: aeth: I wonder whether arc is worth trying
2018-07-28T20:36:54Z aeth: They recently (past year or so?) added a feature that auto-collapses some threads. I have no clue how this is done. It might be a mod action. It's annoying, even more annoying than fading text, especially if you like to collapse threads. You might not notice it.
2018-07-28T20:37:25Z aeth: wasamasa: Arc is basically Common Lisp mixed with Scheme mixed with Perl, but missing any of the interesting features that would make you want to use Common Lisp, Scheme, or Perl.
2018-07-28T20:37:55Z wasamasa: aeth: does it use racket's libraries for anything interesting?
2018-07-28T20:38:57Z aeth: I don't think it's used for anything except for HN, which is literally a built-in functionality. It's also... 1990s web. Everything's done via tables and it's only ASCII.
2018-07-28T20:39:31Z aeth: I think any obscure Lisp you can name has more libraries than Arc. Flop of the century as far as programming languages go and it's only 18 years into the century.
2018-07-28T20:39:42Z wasamasa: :<
2018-07-28T20:40:09Z wasamasa: I've tried islisp, newlisp and txr-lisp briefly, considered going for something even more obscure than that
2018-07-28T20:40:17Z aeth: Try it!
2018-07-28T20:40:24Z aeth: Let me know if it does indeed have the least amount of libraries!
2018-07-28T20:40:29Z amz31: well, it's funny how the main ycombinator contributor is very lisp fan, but the community doesn't follow
2018-07-28T20:41:41Z wasamasa: wow, arc has its own color on github
2018-07-28T20:41:46Z amz31: pff
2018-07-28T20:42:00Z wasamasa: also, looks like anarki does indeed use a mix of racket and arc
2018-07-28T20:42:47Z aeth: https://github.com/trending/arc?since=monthly
2018-07-28T20:44:24Z wasamasa: http://arclanguage.github.io/ref/ doesn't look too bad
2018-07-28T20:44:45Z aeth: (1) anarki (an Arc fork), (2) hackernews (probably includes official Arc), (3) something for "web mining" that I've never heard of before, (4) porting Arc to Java, (5) rewriting Arc, (6) something for ROM hackers?, (7) another Arc implementation (C), (8) another Arc implementation (JS), (9) another Arc implementation, (10) an Arc-like language
2018-07-28T20:44:57Z aeth: You can tell a language is dead when the only things in the language are the language.
2018-07-28T20:45:10Z aeth: I didn't expect #3 or #6 to exist. I expected 10/10 being Arc implementations
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2018-07-28T20:46:13Z aeth: #3 might use the JVM Arc, which would deal with the library issue.
2018-07-28T20:46:58Z aeth: #6 is a Python program that was mistakenly labeled as Arc, probably because of its data format.
2018-07-28T20:47:13Z aeth: https://github.com/bixo/bixo/search?l=arc
2018-07-28T20:47:20Z aeth: oh, #3 was also mistakenly labeled as Arc
2018-07-28T20:48:22Z aeth: #11 is also mistakenly labeled as Arc. Everything below that looks like a fork of something above, used for pull requests due to the way Github works
2018-07-28T20:49:25Z aeth: Looks like Arc is incredibly dead. They haven't even kept up with modern Racket. It requires an old version of MzScheme. https://github.com/wting/hackernews
2018-07-28T20:50:14Z wasamasa: yeah, I recall something about it relying on set-car! working which racket deprecated
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2018-07-28T20:55:10Z aeth: People make fun of languages that are "designed by committee", but Arc would be more useful if it had. No committee would've let it ship without Unicode support or modern (at the time) HTML.
2018-07-28T20:55:25Z Riastradh: ...Bizarre.  People are fighting over paredit on the orange site these days?
2018-07-28T20:56:06Z brettgilio: The people who are opposed to committee-designed languages are the same people who are okay with Microsoft being the sole implementer of their language frameworks, aeth
2018-07-28T20:57:44Z aeth: Committees seem to be the only way to get a healthy multi-implementation ecosystem.
2018-07-28T20:58:22Z brettgilio: aeth: Agreed.
2018-07-28T20:58:54Z brettgilio: There is a reason why Lisps are so versatile
2018-07-28T20:59:18Z aeth: Otherwise you have one company dominate or at least one FOSS implementation dominate, where the main implementation becomes the spec. And if they (e.g. Python) don't prioritize performance, well, good luck using the implementation that does do so (e.g. PyPy) at the expense of being years behind and not having as many libraries.
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2018-07-28T21:00:30Z brettgilio: I mean, take the same case of Microsoft's .NET. It had virtually no power, even with Mono (which Microsoft then purchased), and followed by .NET Core which is a Microsoft project. The standard is singular for them.
2018-07-28T21:01:50Z aeth: I think if you have a healthy multi-implementation ecosystem where there's actual competition, you get good performance. You see this with C, C++, JavaScript, Common Lisp, etc.
2018-07-28T21:02:49Z aeth: (JavaScript is probably the slowest of the langauges I named because the language semantics make it hard to make it fast, but competing implementations makes it much faster than it has any right to be.)
2018-07-28T21:02:52Z wasamasa: quick, someone implement a decent islisp
2018-07-28T21:02:56Z deuill: Go perhaps being a counter-example? The GCC implementation is slightly behind in terms of performance.
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2018-07-28T21:05:42Z deuill: Though the design of the language itself is frozen in most respects, and external implementations aren't discouraged per-se.
2018-07-28T21:06:17Z brettgilio: They aren't exactly supported per-se, either.
2018-07-28T21:06:19Z brettgilio: Similar to .NET
2018-07-28T21:06:23Z wasamasa: that's the same as python's and ruby's situation
2018-07-28T21:06:34Z wasamasa: no spec whatsoever, yet plenty people trying to do an alternative implementation
2018-07-28T21:06:39Z aeth: Well, now that Python's slowing down PyPy is catching up
2018-07-28T21:07:34Z aeth: It looks like it's two versions behind (3.5.3 instead of 3.7.0)
2018-07-28T21:07:40Z aeth: It used to be worse
2018-07-28T21:08:55Z wasamasa: I found rubinius tragic
2018-07-28T21:10:05Z wasamasa: they started the rubyspec project and eventually gave up because they received no support from upstream
2018-07-28T21:12:31Z deuill: Yeah, not supported. GCC does well with keeping up (GCC 8.2 supports the latest version of Go), but I have no idea the amount of work that goes into supporting a parallel effort like this.
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2018-07-28T21:14:27Z aeth: A spec is incredibly valuable. SBCL has patches from time to time when it does something nonconforming. In a language without a spec, the most popular implementation *is* the spec.
2018-07-28T21:15:03Z aeth: Every language needs a HyperSpec, ideally with the 1998 web design philosophy.
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2018-07-28T21:20:14Z lavaflow: wasn't Perl 6 at least for a few years a FOSS language without a reference implementation?   that didn't work out too well..
2018-07-28T21:20:59Z aeth: I think Perl 6's problem is calling it Perl 6. The Perl brand name has... really collapsed, and it's a totally different language.
2018-07-28T21:21:11Z deuill: PHP still doesn't have an official specification, AFAIK.
2018-07-28T21:21:56Z deuill: Or rather, they didn't until recently: https://github.com/php/php-langspec
2018-07-28T21:22:08Z aeth: In 2006, Perl was (with PHP) the Internet. In 2010 Perl was uncool, "write-only". At this point, Perl is beyond uncool. Irrelevant?
2018-07-28T21:22:53Z aeth: "Perl 6" is probably about as appealing to programmers younger than me as "COBOL 2" would be.
2018-07-28T21:23:10Z lavaflow: I think Perl (5) would be more popular today if Perl 6 was never attempted.   Perl 6 entering the scene, while not being ready for use, made people hesitate to use Perl 5 for anything for fear of Perl 5 soon being obsolete/irrelevant.   Why invest in an old technology?
2018-07-28T21:23:22Z lavaflow: except Perl 6 never delivered, so Perl just died.
2018-07-28T21:23:27Z aeth: Perl 6 was basically Python 3 but worse.
2018-07-28T21:23:56Z aeth: Python 3 set Python back years and gave JavaScript the opening to be used on servers/desktops.
2018-07-28T21:24:09Z aeth: In 2010, Python dominated, with a bit of Ruby on the side.
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2018-07-28T21:24:58Z daviid: what is an hyperspec compared to a spec?
2018-07-28T21:24:59Z lavaflow: agreed, although at least Python 3 actually delivered in a reasonable timeframe.  python still seems pretty popular today.
2018-07-28T21:24:59Z aeth: Interestingly, that 2010 Python was Python 2, even though Python 3 was released in December 2008.
2018-07-28T21:25:21Z lavaflow: if python 3 had no official implmentation, like Perl 6, I think python would be dead today.
2018-07-28T21:26:55Z aeth: At the same time, Python 2 was a lot less flawed than Perl 5 is. You have a lot more to fix in Perl.
2018-07-28T21:27:31Z aeth: Perl 5 is basically a better Awk. Python is a lot more clearly general purpose.
2018-07-28T21:27:54Z aeth: *clearly a lot more general purpose?
2018-07-28T21:27:58Z lavaflow: perl was always sort of the language for people who thought the more indecipherable a one-liner was, the cooler it was.
2018-07-28T21:29:12Z aeth: Perl has some awkward rules around basic things like arrays.
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2018-07-28T21:31:01Z aeth: Looks like Perl got mad at me
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2018-07-28T21:31:52Z daviid: :) -> http://hyperspec.r-forge.r-project.org/
2018-07-28T21:33:47Z daviid: I have no idea why CL called its spec the hyperspec
2018-07-28T21:35:59Z daviid: ah ok, i found the answer https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_Lisp_HyperSpec
2018-07-28T21:36:03Z aeth: This is the official standard. https://webstore.ansi.org/RecordDetail.aspx?sku=INCITS+226-1994%5bS2008%5d
2018-07-28T21:36:07Z aeth: It costs $60
2018-07-28T21:36:25Z aeth: The various "standards" online aren't the ANSI standard, they're generated from late drafts.
2018-07-28T21:36:52Z wasamasa: I wonder whether the PDF is a low-quality scan
2018-07-28T21:37:07Z aeth: The HyperSpec is the de facto standard of Common Lisp today.
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2018-07-28T21:57:51Z Zipheir: Heh, Go is frozen in more than one respect.
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2018-07-29T02:35:53Z Zipheir: siraben: o/
2018-07-29T02:36:01Z Zipheir: siraben: How is Cat Theory for Programmers?
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2018-07-29T02:36:45Z Zipheir: siraben: I'm looking for more decent books on categories atm and I know you're reading that.
2018-07-29T02:38:47Z Riastradh: What are you trying to do with category theory?
2018-07-29T02:40:24Z aeth: Programmers are a lot like cats, aren't they? Is that the theory?
2018-07-29T02:41:57Z qu1j0t3: what Riastradh asked. it depends what your goal is.
2018-07-29T02:44:13Z siraben: Hi Zipheir
2018-07-29T02:44:15Z Zipheir: I've been reading a lot of work by Richard Bird and Philip Wadler, and categorical ideas keep cropping up.
2018-07-29T02:44:30Z siraben: Zipheir: It's pretty good, even for someone that doesn't know much Haskell such as I.
2018-07-29T02:44:52Z siraben: I know some Haskell, but not so much the "advanced" category theoretical features
2018-07-29T02:45:05Z siraben: Which IMO is where the true power of haskell is
2018-07-29T02:45:15Z siraben: Zipheir: It goes well with his lectures
2018-07-29T02:45:25Z Zipheir: ...and general philosophical interest. I'm not in the "omg everyone says I need to know cat theory halp" crowd. :)
2018-07-29T02:45:47Z siraben: Yeah there's links to other areas as well, but it focuses mostly on its application programming
2018-07-29T02:45:54Z siraben: But I can see connections with cat theory and mathematicws
2018-07-29T02:45:55Z Zipheir: siraben: Ah, cool, I'll check it out then.
2018-07-29T02:46:25Z siraben: As an exercise, it's cool to try to implement some of the ideas in Scheme
2018-07-29T02:46:57Z Zipheir: siraben: It's really a beautiful perspective. I don't understand the people who say it's dry and abstract.
2018-07-29T02:47:07Z Zipheir: Although abstract it most certainly is.
2018-07-29T02:47:11Z siraben: It does feel really abstract, yeah.
2018-07-29T02:47:12Z Riastradh: Mostly category theory is a way to frame analogous results in different branches of math in a common language.  There's not much substance to the common language itself if you're not already trying to relate the substantive branches of math.
2018-07-29T02:47:35Z siraben: Especially with some of the constructions, it feels completely non-obvious (i.e. I couldn't imagine how someone had this idae)
2018-07-29T02:47:56Z siraben: "Ooo what if we had a hom-functor...Yoneda lemma!"
2018-07-29T02:48:19Z siraben: I think it's due to a lack of mathematical knowledge on my part, will study more math later
2018-07-29T02:48:44Z Zipheir: I'm not sure I agree. I find it a very powerful way of thinking about transformations in the abstract. I don't really see it as tied to math.
2018-07-29T02:48:58Z Zipheir: Riastradh: ^^
2018-07-29T02:49:48Z siraben: Perhaps.  It's really different to think in Haskell compared to Scheme
2018-07-29T02:50:26Z Zipheir: Maybe because, like set theory, it's taught only to people with lots of mathematical background, people get the impression that it's only for specialists.
2018-07-29T02:50:49Z Zipheir: siraben: They sometimes complement each other.
2018-07-29T02:50:55Z Riastradh: siraben: Well, if you start with composable invertible transformations, and relate them to permutations of a set, you get Cayley's theorem; if you state it in the language of group theory that was developed after that idea, you get that every group is isomorphic to a subgroup of the symmetric group acting on G; if you then generalize it to other branches of math and strip off the details of group
2018-07-29T02:50:55Z siraben: Zipheir: For instance?
2018-07-29T02:50:59Z Zipheir: s/complement/compliment/
2018-07-29T02:51:01Z Riastradh: theory, you get the Yoneda lemma.
2018-07-29T02:51:36Z siraben: Riastradh: Yeah there's a connection with Cayley's theorem and Yoneda lemma
2018-07-29T02:51:45Z siraben: But I haven't understood the former yet.
2018-07-29T02:52:27Z Riastradh: If you just start with the Yoneda lemma it's like drifting in the middle of the ocean and coming upon a book on an anthropological study of the craftsmanship subcultures of woodworking and metalworking, which really doesn't help you to build the boat you need to get to shore.
2018-07-29T02:52:53Z Zipheir: It might provide some entertainment while you drown :)
2018-07-29T02:52:57Z siraben: Riastradh: Right.  It helps to have some background.
2018-07-29T02:53:28Z siraben: Zipheir: On the other side, I'm reading on type theory as well which is also useful for programming in general
2018-07-29T02:53:38Z Riastradh: Except category theory is also dressed up as culturally hip from Haskell culture, encouraging people to study these subcultures without actually showing them a piece of wood or a piece of steel.
2018-07-29T02:53:41Z Zipheir: siraben: I will say that some Haskellers love their abstract wackiness. Sometimes all you want is a list.
2018-07-29T02:54:02Z Zipheir: Riastradh: Absolutely right.
2018-07-29T02:54:32Z Riastradh: Zipheir: There's not much to set theory either...  Most mathematicians don't really care about articulating the specific ZFC axioms, for instance; indeed, most would probably agree that the ZFC axioms are clunky and it would be better to use a simpler version, but it doesn't affect any of their work.
2018-07-29T02:56:59Z siraben: I tried out Javascript, ugh it was ugly.
2018-07-29T02:57:21Z siraben: Implicit type coercion is terrible.
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2018-07-29T02:57:45Z Zipheir: siraben: It's funny that some famous Lispers are really down on type theory. Sussman complains about it constantly, and I think SICP makes snarky reference to a type-obsessed language called "Hassle".
2018-07-29T02:58:43Z siraben: At a conference on programming languages you might hear someone say, “The normal-order language Hassle has certain strict primitives. Other procedures take their arguments by lazy evaluation.”At
2018-07-29T02:58:57Z siraben: Zipheir: But why?
2018-07-29T02:59:16Z siraben: I should stop using list structures for compound data types in Scheme and use record-type instead
2018-07-29T02:59:52Z Zipheir: siraben: I guess the argument is it's too much work?
2018-07-29T03:00:33Z siraben: SICP hardly does any type conversions
2018-07-29T03:00:41Z siraben: Except in the generic programming system
2018-07-29T03:00:57Z Zipheir: The Lisp/Haskell subculture wars are really amusing, since there's so little at stake :)
2018-07-29T03:00:59Z siraben: When you had complex numbers, rationals, polynomials etc.
2018-07-29T03:01:20Z siraben: I did not know that Lispers and Haskellers are at odds with one another
2018-07-29T03:01:31Z siraben: Each type of language has its strengths and weaknesses
2018-07-29T03:02:08Z Zipheir: There's some polite friction and snarkiness :)
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2018-07-29T03:04:01Z Zipheir: Yeah, I do think SICP would be better with define-record-type. As is, the book constantly has to worry about implementing types in terms of lists.
2018-07-29T03:04:39Z siraben: Can define-record-type be done at the meta-circular evaluator level?
2018-07-29T03:04:54Z siraben: Oof hygenic macros are harder to implement than I thought!
2018-07-29T03:05:30Z Zipheir: You probably could build it into the meta-circular eval, sure.
2018-07-29T03:05:57Z Zipheir: Have you seen "syntax-rules for the merely eccentric"? They really get nuts.
2018-07-29T03:07:02Z Zipheir: The scheme evaluator implemented as a macro is absolutely a thing that people have done.
2018-07-29T03:09:38Z siraben: Wait, a scheme `eval' as a macro?
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2018-07-29T03:13:51Z siraben: Zipheir: "Syntax-rules Primer for the Merely Eccentric" is crazy
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2018-07-29T03:14:30Z siraben: Scheme is a language that has such room for growth it always feels like you've just gotten started
2018-07-29T03:16:29Z Zipheir: And it's a small and mostly simple language, too.
2018-07-29T03:17:15Z siraben: It really should be taught in high schools, it's completely appropriate
2018-07-29T03:17:42Z siraben: As an alternative to LOGO for little kids too
2018-07-29T03:18:56Z Zipheir: High schools should give everyone a Raspberry Pi and Scheme lessons.
2018-07-29T03:19:56Z siraben: I don't see the point in teaching high schoolers about object orientation already
2018-07-29T03:20:14Z siraben: You can do it abstractly Scheme, and it use an appropriate language when the time is needed
2018-07-29T03:20:41Z Zipheir: You mean OO as a topic in itself? Are there high schools that do that?
2018-07-29T03:20:49Z siraben: As a unit in a CS course
2018-07-29T03:20:51Z siraben: Oh yes
2018-07-29T03:21:10Z siraben: Without explaining why one would need it other than to make class diagrams
2018-07-29T03:21:20Z siraben: Maybe provide a trivial example with bikes, instances of bikes, etc.
2018-07-29T03:21:21Z Zipheir: Yeah, that's dumb.
2018-07-29T03:21:36Z siraben: See: AP and IB CS
2018-07-29T03:21:37Z siraben: lol
2018-07-29T03:22:05Z Zipheir: Oh god, the endless trivial OO examples. Who hasn't read some book with things like "A Dog is an Animal that implements the speak() method..."
2018-07-29T03:22:14Z siraben: I took the AP exam, the multiple choice was easy but incredibly tedious, because you had to trace iterations of "for" loops!
2018-07-29T03:22:24Z siraben: "what does this program output on the 6th iteration?"
2018-07-29T03:22:30Z Zipheir: Hah
2018-07-29T03:22:35Z siraben: btw it used java
2018-07-29T03:22:37Z siraben: ew
2018-07-29T03:23:08Z siraben: And the free response section, where we write some code, on paper, the problems were also easy
2018-07-29T03:23:25Z siraben: "Test whether an array of numbers is strictly increasing"
2018-07-29T03:23:40Z siraben: "Write some boilerplate code
2018-07-29T03:24:03Z siraben: The only interesting question was where we had to write a method to generate the next row of Pascal's triangle given the previous one.
2018-07-29T03:24:23Z Zipheir: That's a decent one.
2018-07-29T03:24:26Z siraben: IMO reminiscent of Project Euler problems
2018-07-29T03:24:29Z siraben: There should be more like that
2018-07-29T03:24:34Z Zipheir: And in SICP, iirc
2018-07-29T03:25:28Z Zipheir: Seriously though, the practice of trying to teach CS with _Java_ as the lingua franca is beyond insane.
2018-07-29T03:25:43Z siraben: Yeah exercise 1.12
2018-07-29T03:25:52Z siraben hasn't done the exercises in SICP
2018-07-29T03:25:56Z siraben: Only some
2018-07-29T03:26:07Z siraben: Will do the rest through, they're good.
2018-07-29T03:26:16Z Zipheir: "I do not see how we can solve a problem if our programming language--our basic tool--exceeds our understanding." --Djikstra, badly paraphrased
2018-07-29T03:26:23Z siraben: AP used to use C++
2018-07-29T03:26:33Z Zipheir: ugh
2018-07-29T03:27:08Z siraben: Which is not that much better
2018-07-29T03:27:39Z siraben: Zipheir: See a sample paper: https://secure-media.collegeboard.org/digitalServices/pdf/ap/ap16_frq_computer_science_a.pdf
2018-07-29T03:27:40Z siraben: Ugh
2018-07-29T03:27:59Z siraben: Never did this one actually
2018-07-29T03:28:21Z siraben: Question 2 is pretty interesting, you have to write a parser
2018-07-29T03:28:29Z siraben: But the regular language isn't even specified -_-
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2018-07-29T03:29:40Z Zipheir: RandomStringChooser ... ugh, my eyes
2018-07-29T03:30:07Z siraben: I recall having a headache after the exam
2018-07-29T03:30:25Z siraben: private boolean toBeLabeled(int r, int c, boolean[][] blackSquares)
2018-07-29T03:30:41Z siraben: What's with the camelCase?
2018-07-29T03:31:07Z siraben: Just for kicks, I wrote all my code on a draft piece of paper and renamed all the variables to "a b c d ..." lol
2018-07-29T03:33:29Z Zipheir: Everything must be camelized, King Java demands it.
2018-07-29T03:33:55Z amz31: Javaesque
2018-07-29T03:34:02Z amz31 /quit
2018-07-29T03:34:47Z siraben: Maybe I should've named my variables: "int f,u,c,k; ..."
2018-07-29T03:34:53Z siraben: But I didn't want to lose points
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2018-07-29T03:36:45Z Zipheir: siraben: Thanks for this, it's pretty amusing.
2018-07-29T03:37:13Z siraben: No problem
2018-07-29T03:37:19Z siraben: It's just the sad state of CS
2018-07-29T03:37:26Z siraben: But Python is also being used in other curriculums
2018-07-29T03:37:32Z amz31: well, Java is not that bad!
2018-07-29T03:37:52Z amz31: at least you can know which Exception can be raised by methods
2018-07-29T03:38:03Z amz31: that the single feature I wish I had in Python and Scheme
2018-07-29T03:38:07Z siraben: pff who needs exceptions when you have call/cc
2018-07-29T03:38:14Z siraben hides
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2018-07-29T03:38:34Z amz31: exception support is poor in guile
2018-07-29T03:38:39Z amz31: compared to python
2018-07-29T03:38:49Z amz31: you can not re-raise an exception
2018-07-29T03:38:57Z amz31: without loosing the original traceback
2018-07-29T03:39:06Z amz31: or raise an exception from another exception
2018-07-29T03:39:13Z siraben: exceptionception
2018-07-29T03:39:19Z amz31: yes
2018-07-29T03:39:21Z amz31: :)
2018-07-29T03:39:29Z siraben: Why would you need an exception inside of an exception ???
2018-07-29T03:40:37Z amz31: because when you properly declare exception, you 'rename' the generic exception into the domain specific 'exception' you still want t know what was the orignial exception it makes debugging easier
2018-07-29T03:41:06Z aeth: Can you give an example?
2018-07-29T03:41:25Z amz31: I will use python exception names
2018-07-29T03:41:35Z amz31: say you use a mapping called dictionary in python
2018-07-29T03:41:40Z amz31: to store your model data
2018-07-29T03:42:30Z amz31: you try to model[something] aka. get something from the model dictionary instance
2018-07-29T03:42:41Z amz31: if something
2018-07-29T03:42:53Z amz31: if 'somthing' is not in model it raise a KeyError
2018-07-29T03:43:10Z amz31: but KeyError is too generic, it may happen in many place
2018-07-29T03:43:56Z amz31: instead you catch KeyError and 'raise FieldMissingException from KeyError'
2018-07-29T03:44:48Z amz31: but in scheme I don't do that yet
2018-07-29T03:45:03Z amz31: since exception support is poor, and my programs to easy
2018-07-29T03:45:31Z aeth: I think I know what you mean. More Lispy: If you write a DSL to generate infix strings and have foo-/ procedure to turn '(/ 1 2 3) into "(1 / 2 / 3)" and someone has '(/) that will give a not enough arguments to foo-/ error (or something similar depending on the implementation), when you probably want to have a custom thing that actually explains what's wrong from the perspective of using the DSL.
2018-07-29T03:45:32Z amz31: the rule you must remember is that you must define your own exception and if possible inherit all domain exception from the same root Exception
2018-07-29T03:46:18Z amz31: but again, not all scheme have oop so it complicates things a bit
2018-07-29T03:46:24Z siraben: You can do this in Haskell with a Maybe monad
2018-07-29T03:46:46Z siraben: Exceptions can be done purely, with full traces.
2018-07-29T03:47:11Z amz31: aeth: yes
2018-07-29T03:49:58Z Zipheir: siraben: You still have to answer the question of "what happens when I get Nothing"
2018-07-29T03:50:39Z siraben: Return Nothing!
2018-07-29T03:50:49Z siraben: What about adding traces?
2018-07-29T03:51:08Z Zipheir: tut tut, nothing will come of nothing, speak again!
2018-07-29T03:51:11Z siraben: Can't we wrap a Klesli fish around the operators?
2018-07-29T03:51:23Z aeth: Unless I'm understanding it incorrectly, CL has something pretty similar to maybe. (deftype maybe-foo () `(or null foo))
2018-07-29T03:51:33Z aeth: the actual article: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monad_(functional_programming)#The_Maybe_monad
2018-07-29T03:51:43Z siraben: >=> :: (a -> (b, m)) -> (b -> (c, m)) -> (a -> (c, m))
2018-07-29T03:51:48Z aeth: I've used (or null foo) without deftype a bunch of times in CL but I've never used it in Scheme
2018-07-29T03:52:24Z aeth: I'm actually not sure what the equivalent would be in Scheme. In CL, NIL is the empty list, false, and null in one.
2018-07-29T03:53:00Z amz31: aeth: I think in scheme you must implment your own monadic operators
2018-07-29T03:53:03Z aeth: siraben: I'm convinced that Haskell is an obfuscation-oriented esolang
2018-07-29T03:53:26Z amz31: too bad is works quiet well
2018-07-29T03:53:33Z aeth: I'm not dumb. I learn lots of Haskell concepts, just not from Haskell
2018-07-29T03:54:29Z Zipheir: siraben: It's actually (>=>) :: (a -> m b) -> (b -> m c) -> a -> m c
2018-07-29T03:56:38Z aeth: I think the problem I had with trying to learn Haskell is that I can learn new concepts or new syntax, but Haskell is both.
2018-07-29T03:57:17Z Zipheir: siraben: Exception handler are essentially non-local gotos. In a large program, you might need to chase handlers to get back into a reasonable state or to present a meaningful error.
2018-07-29T04:00:32Z Zipheir: aeth: I think Haskell's syntax is an unreasonable barrier. It's not a hard language, but I don't want to write a parser for it.
2018-07-29T04:05:29Z siraben: Zipheir: Oh yes, that definition.
2018-07-29T04:05:58Z siraben: Zipheir: Could one get a lispy haskell?
2018-07-29T04:07:55Z aeth: https://docs.racket-lang.org/ts-guide/index.html and http://www.shenlanguage.org/ are the closest that I know of
2018-07-29T04:08:11Z aeth: I know neither of those languages nor do I know Haskell, so I'm not sure how close
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2018-07-29T04:10:19Z Zipheir: Hmm, shen looks interesting.
2018-07-29T04:16:18Z aeth: Typed Racket runs as part of Racket and Shen runs on top of a bunch of different languages, including CL. That's probably the right approach. If I did something like that, I'd probably run it on top of CL.
2018-07-29T04:16:27Z Zipheir: siraben: Some of those AP questions are pretty good, it's really just the obsession with presenting everything in OO and design-pattern jargon that makes it so nauseating.
2018-07-29T04:16:59Z Zipheir: siraben: It's like the test authors don't even know what a function or a data structure is.
2018-07-29T04:17:09Z aeth: Zipheir: That's what happens when you use Java
2018-07-29T04:18:02Z siraben: Zipheir: Yes!!! It's like they don't know what a honest-to-god _function_ is!
2018-07-29T04:18:18Z siraben: It's the obsession with OO...
2018-07-29T04:18:25Z siraben: Who even writes these questions?
2018-07-29T04:18:38Z siraben: On the other hand, the AP and IB math questions are very good
2018-07-29T04:18:52Z siraben: Requires much though
2018-07-29T04:18:53Z siraben: thought*
2018-07-29T04:19:02Z aeth: FP is at that point, too, except for that level of being mainstream. Plenty of people use FP where it's not a good fit.
2018-07-29T04:19:05Z siraben: AP Calculus BC that is^
2018-07-29T04:19:13Z siraben: aeth: Such as?
2018-07-29T04:19:20Z aeth: It's almost like different problems are best solved in different ways and trying to use the same method for everything doesn't work...
2018-07-29T04:19:27Z aeth: siraben: FP doesn't work well when something is very stateful
2018-07-29T04:19:36Z siraben: Haha, say that in #haskell
2018-07-29T04:19:43Z siraben: State Monads to the rescue
2018-07-29T04:19:47Z Zipheir: Yeah, here comes the monad brigade
2018-07-29T04:19:47Z siraben: That's true, for efficiency reasons.
2018-07-29T04:20:03Z siraben: Imperative programming has its strengths too
2018-07-29T04:20:07Z aeth: siraben: The problem is immutable data structures, actually. FP pure functions work fine even in heavily stateful circumstances, as long as they feed into mutable data structures ime
2018-07-29T04:20:32Z siraben: Common Lisp gives you variants of functions that do side effects
2018-07-29T04:20:39Z siraben: like nconc for instead of append
2018-07-29T04:20:42Z aeth: right map vs. map-into
2018-07-29T04:21:04Z aeth: map-into is actually kind of the ideal way to handle things
2018-07-29T04:21:08Z aeth: at least in Lisps
2018-07-29T04:21:53Z siraben: nbutlast vs butlast, nreconc vs revappend etc.
2018-07-29T04:21:59Z Zipheir: aeth: I would once have agreed, but I drank the pure Kool-aid after I encountered monadic parsers.
2018-07-29T04:22:03Z aeth: (map-into foo #'+ foo bar) ; avoids unnecessary garbage, but the state is pretty simple and you're using the pure + function
2018-07-29T04:22:12Z siraben: But Practical Common Lisp says to use the side effect versions to increase performance
2018-07-29T04:22:26Z siraben: Side effects can be a pain though
2018-07-29T04:22:43Z aeth: it works when you never need the original foo again
2018-07-29T04:22:54Z siraben: Right.
2018-07-29T04:23:15Z siraben: But I wouldn't want to program a toy robot in Haskell or Scheme, there's C for that
2018-07-29T04:23:43Z siraben: If any CS curriculum is going to succeed, it needs to teach multiple views of things
2018-07-29T04:23:50Z Zipheir: Why not? Assuming your Scheme's fast enough, that is.
2018-07-29T04:23:50Z aeth: The only thing that makes C the most suitable language for that is because that robot's probably not going to be using x86-64
2018-07-29T04:23:53Z siraben: I like SICP for that reason.
2018-07-29T04:23:58Z siraben: Zipheir: API issues haha
2018-07-29T04:24:15Z siraben: Interop, low leve scheduling tc.
2018-07-29T04:24:16Z siraben: etc.
2018-07-29T04:24:31Z Zipheir: What aeth said.
2018-07-29T04:24:37Z siraben: And I don't want any garbage collector running in my face
2018-07-29T04:25:11Z aeth: There's one Lisp where I can program around the GC sufficiently, SBCL
2018-07-29T04:25:21Z siraben: With good C interop?
2018-07-29T04:25:25Z aeth: It's pretty hard to get that much information to make sure you're not allocating left and right
2018-07-29T04:25:35Z tabemann joined #scheme
2018-07-29T04:25:39Z siraben: Yeah I can just write calloc once in C and use a fixed struct
2018-07-29T04:25:45Z siraben: Or heck, use *global* variables!
2018-07-29T04:25:49Z aeth: But in SBCL I can usually be pretty sure that I'm not consing (at least under ordinary circumstances, I'm sure exceptions/etc. probably will cons)
2018-07-29T04:26:12Z aeth: siraben: In theory all you need to do is pre-allocate everything that you need.
2018-07-29T04:26:24Z siraben: typedef struct {int a; int b;} pair;  vs. (cons a b) and use car and cdr
2018-07-29T04:26:39Z aeth: In practice, you need to have good profiling to make sure that something that doesn't allocate to the heap is in fact not allocating to the heap in a language like one of the Lisp languages
2018-07-29T04:27:16Z aeth: siraben: Most Lisps have something like a struct that you can use instead of conses, also arrays. The real issue is you don't get arrays-of-structs, but you can get structs-of-arrays.
2018-07-29T04:27:43Z siraben: aeth: The weakness comes when I want to use pointers vs. values
2018-07-29T04:27:50Z siraben: call by value vs call by reference
2018-07-29T04:28:08Z aeth: That's a very C way of thinking
2018-07-29T04:28:12Z siraben: Yeah
2018-07-29T04:28:30Z aeth: If you have to work with pointers, you're working with foreign pointers in a CFFI.
2018-07-29T04:30:11Z siraben: Actually, SICP can be adapted for high schools, just update the content and remove some of the math-heavy stuff I think
2018-07-29T04:30:25Z siraben: I've recommend it to a couple of my friends but they were shocked at the length of it
2018-07-29T04:30:35Z aeth: In CL, you're not going to pass in &int and set it (excuse me if I got this wrong, I don't do much C/C++). That's just a hack around not having multiple return values.
2018-07-29T04:31:11Z aeth: siraben: That's because high school does a college semester (half a year) in a full academic year
2018-07-29T04:31:21Z aeth: And even then you're not going to get through the whole book (except maybe MIT did)
2018-07-29T04:31:33Z Zipheir: Pointers in C are really a hack, tbh.
2018-07-29T04:31:38Z siraben: Zipheir: ***x
2018-07-29T04:31:55Z siraben: int *x; int y = 4; x = &y; *x = 10; printf("%d\n", y);
2018-07-29T04:32:03Z siraben: => 10
2018-07-29T04:32:08Z siraben: Wow "y" was changed!
2018-07-29T04:33:10Z siraben: aeth: Yeah the pace of high school classes are slow IMO
2018-07-29T04:33:15Z Zipheir: At this point, so many millions of dollars of damage have been done by that hack...
2018-07-29T04:33:23Z siraben: It helps to have tiers of classes like higher level and standard level
2018-07-29T04:33:40Z siraben: Zipheir: I used "valgrind" a lot to debug memory leaks
2018-07-29T04:33:50Z siraben: The problem with C is that you really have a hard time with memory leaks
2018-07-29T04:34:22Z siraben: And don't even mention multi-threading!
2018-07-29T04:34:33Z Zipheir: siraben: One book--or approach, rather--that I would really like to see adapted to wider audiences is The Structure & Interpretation of Classical Mechanics.
2018-07-29T04:34:48Z siraben: Zipheir: I've tried reading that... did not understand the first chapter at all
2018-07-29T04:34:58Z siraben: But skimmed through the demos and was really interested.
2018-07-29T04:35:03Z siraben: The pictures*
2018-07-29T04:35:20Z Zipheir: siraben: It's way over my head. But a lot of mathematics can be made much clearer via programming languages.
2018-07-29T04:35:35Z siraben: I completely agree.
2018-07-29T04:35:49Z Zipheir: Also, type. Math textbooks need to use type signatures
2018-07-29T04:35:51Z siraben: For instance, SICP's symbolic differentiation program was enlightening
2018-07-29T04:35:59Z aeth: siraben: The hackiest way to do what I think you want from C in CL would probably be to do this: (make-array '() :initial-element 42)
2018-07-29T04:35:59Z siraben: Mathematical notation sucks
2018-07-29T04:36:08Z aeth: Yes, make a 0D array and pass it in as an argument. You can do that in CL
2018-07-29T04:36:16Z aeth: It's probably not optimized anywhere because no one does it
2018-07-29T04:36:25Z siraben: That's... scary.
2018-07-29T04:36:47Z aeth: (let ((a (make-array '() :initial-element 42))) (setf (aref a) "Hi") a) => #0A"Hi"
2018-07-29T04:36:56Z aeth: I hope jcowan__ adds 0D arrays to r7rs large
2018-07-29T04:37:03Z Zipheir: siraben: Right, you see in that program exactly what you're trying to do when differentiating some function--namely, pattern matching and recursive decomposition
2018-07-29T04:37:12Z aeth: A minimalist language like Scheme could probably use 0D arrays in hacky places where CL doesn't need them
2018-07-29T04:37:26Z siraben: Zipheir: But it would not be good to teach symbolic integration haha
2018-07-29T04:37:31Z Zipheir: Wait, wtf is a 0D array?
2018-07-29T04:37:40Z Zipheir: siraben: Uh, no xD
2018-07-29T04:37:41Z siraben: Integration by parts, integration by substitution... etc.
2018-07-29T04:37:45Z siraben: ugh
2018-07-29T04:38:00Z siraben: Linear algebra is cool to explore through programs.
2018-07-29T04:38:07Z jcowan__: aeth: specifying them would be easy, but adding them would require changes to (or a replacement of) the existing implementation
2018-07-29T04:38:07Z aeth: Zipheir: CL supports ND arrays. '() is 0D, '(42) or 42 is 1D, '(42 53) is 2D, '(31 42 53) is 3D, etc.
2018-07-29T04:38:24Z jcowan__: there is also the possibility of degenerate (size 0) arrays
2018-07-29T04:38:50Z aeth: Oh, yes, (make-array 0)
2018-07-29T04:38:51Z Zipheir: aeth: Duh. I thought that was hex.
2018-07-29T04:39:40Z Zipheir: One EF array, please.
2018-07-29T04:39:55Z aeth: Zipheir: no, #x0d is hex in the only syntax that matters
2018-07-29T04:39:58Z siraben: Zipheir: I want type annotations and assertions in math textbooks
2018-07-29T04:40:16Z aeth: If #x0D isn't valid in your Lisp, it isn't a true Lisp. Works in CL and Scheme and Racket.
2018-07-29T04:40:38Z siraben: e.g. sin :: Float -> Float ... assert -1 <= (sin x) <= 1...
2018-07-29T04:41:02Z siraben: Can't tell whether this is clever or nasty: https://betterexplained.com/articles/understanding-quakes-fast-inverse-square-root/
2018-07-29T04:41:08Z Zipheir: siraben: Dependent types! No, just kidding.
2018-07-29T04:41:14Z aeth: Oh, it also works in Emacs Lisp
2018-07-29T04:41:28Z siraben: What kind of programmer writes: x = *(float*)&i;
2018-07-29T04:41:45Z siraben: Or int i = *(int*)&x; where x is a float!!!!
2018-07-29T04:42:07Z siraben: C goes into the trouble of types without checking them.  Strange.
2018-07-29T04:42:20Z Zipheir: siraben: Oh, btw, this is hilarious http://www.csis.pace.edu/~bergin/patterns/ppoop.html
2018-07-29T04:42:47Z siraben: Zipheir: This is satire, right?
2018-07-29T04:42:52Z aeth: siraben: On the bright side, that means you could probably abuse the CFFI in many languages to do a similar fast inverse square root hack
2018-07-29T04:43:00Z Zipheir: The consensus is that it is not satire :D
2018-07-29T04:43:24Z siraben: aeth: Haskellers gonna choke
2018-07-29T04:43:43Z siraben: Zipheir: This sums up AP computer science in a nutshell
2018-07-29T04:44:30Z siraben: Hmm.. can't make up my mind if it's satire or not.
2018-07-29T04:45:02Z Zipheir: If it's trolling, it's the greatest OOP trolling ever.
2018-07-29T04:45:09Z siraben: System.out.println(OSDiscriminator.getBoxSpecifier().getStatement()) ;
2018-07-29T04:45:17Z siraben: Oh god
2018-07-29T04:45:30Z siraben: Zipheir: Is it trolling or not?
2018-07-29T04:45:54Z Zipheir: siraben: c.f. Rob Pike's comments https://plus.google.com/+RobPikeTheHuman/posts/hoJdanihKwb
2018-07-29T04:46:34Z aeth: Obviously it's trolling or it would look like (statement (box-specifier OS-discriminator))
2018-07-29T04:46:53Z siraben: Zipheir: I like how the URL has "ppoop"
2018-07-29T04:46:56Z siraben: poop
2018-07-29T04:47:02Z aeth: siraben: That makes me think it's trolling
2018-07-29T04:47:12Z aeth: That goes too far and gives it away
2018-07-29T04:47:14Z jcowan__ quit (Quit: Leaving)
2018-07-29T04:47:21Z Zipheir: Yeah, maybe
2018-07-29T04:47:22Z siraben: What if Rob Pike is trolling the troll
2018-07-29T04:48:14Z siraben: By the way, is OOP declining in industry?
2018-07-29T04:48:29Z aeth: the table solution is pretty obvious
2018-07-29T04:48:30Z siraben: Why is FP having another resurgence despite being around practically since the beginning?
2018-07-29T04:48:41Z Zipheir: I think Pike is right that it's past its peak, but it's a big mountain
2018-07-29T04:48:56Z siraben: What made OOP decline in the end?
2018-07-29T04:49:17Z Zipheir: Someday people will realize it's not actually the panacea they were promised.
2018-07-29T04:49:19Z aeth: Java-style OOP takes 20 lines and turns it into 200+ and that has a lot of costs
2018-07-29T04:49:25Z aeth: https://github.com/EnterpriseQualityCoding/FizzBuzzEnterpriseEdition
2018-07-29T04:49:38Z siraben: I saw that before, amazing satire.
2018-07-29T04:50:00Z siraben: https://prog21.dadgum.com/93.html recommends python as a first language
2018-07-29T04:50:41Z Zipheir: seriouscompany/business/java/fizzbuzz/packagenamingpackage/
2018-07-29T04:50:48Z siraben: But... Python has no homoiconicity or type declarations!
2018-07-29T04:50:50Z Zipheir: I like that repo structure.
2018-07-29T04:51:23Z aeth: siraben: Not a bad idea, actually. Start on Python because it's easy, then go to Scheme because even though it's a tiny language it can do things that Python cannot do.
2018-07-29T04:51:50Z aeth: After that, probably a statically typed language but there are too many up and coming ones for there to be a clear one
2018-07-29T04:51:58Z siraben: Is it the parenthesis that makes Lisp intimidating?
2018-07-29T04:52:30Z aeth: It's the lack of libraries imo
2018-07-29T04:52:31Z siraben: Zipheir: Maybe I should find a good python textbook to convince me of its merits
2018-07-29T04:52:38Z jcowan joined #scheme
2018-07-29T04:52:48Z aeth: Python and JS are popular because you can find a library for literally anything
2018-07-29T04:52:54Z edgar-rft quit (Quit: Leaving)
2018-07-29T04:53:02Z aeth: Your programming task becomes one of gluing together the right libraries.
2018-07-29T04:53:02Z siraben: JS is an ugly beast
2018-07-29T04:53:30Z aeth: Same with PHP, C++, Perl, and a bunch of other popular languages.
2018-07-29T04:53:32Z siraben: aeth: And that never gives me a sense of satisfaction :)
2018-07-29T04:53:36Z siraben: gluing libraries
2018-07-29T04:53:52Z aeth: Lots of languages are very ugly
2018-07-29T04:53:54Z siraben: For some things, yes it's good, but see leftpad
2018-07-29T04:54:15Z aeth: (I add Perl to the list because it's ugly for anything that doesn't have to directly do with text. It's Awk++)
2018-07-29T04:55:06Z Zipheir: I'm not convinced Python is easy. That language has a _lot_ of features.
2018-07-29T04:55:12Z siraben: :=
2018-07-29T04:55:22Z aeth: Zipheir: Python is easy for CS 101 things.
2018-07-29T04:55:34Z aeth: Doing advanced things in Python is hard.
2018-07-29T04:55:40Z siraben: aeth: So is Scheme for CS 101
2018-07-29T04:56:13Z Zipheir: For instance, there are at least 10 different ways to pass arguments. The spec has to get into fairly complicated semantics to explain all the possible named/positional/optional combos.
2018-07-29T04:56:20Z aeth: Doing advanced things in portable Scheme is even harder than in Python. Close to impossible, which is why Scheme is more of a language family than a language
2018-07-29T04:56:30Z siraben: Define "advanced"
2018-07-29T04:56:44Z aeth: hash tables and (pre-r7rs) vectors
2018-07-29T04:56:56Z siraben: What about Common Lisp, if not Scheme?
2018-07-29T04:57:19Z siraben: It's still a large language and as Zipheir there's a lot of semantics with &optional and :keyword arguments
2018-07-29T04:57:21Z aeth: Common Lisp can do everything, but it has a bit of inherent ugliness to it due to backwards compatiblity with 1970s (and older) Lisp systems that made some bad decisions
2018-07-29T04:57:48Z siraben: Well, what about C?
2018-07-29T04:57:53Z aeth: (Common Lisp can't do everything portably, either! But it's large enough that most of it can be handled with portability libraries, unlike with Scheme.)
2018-07-29T04:58:08Z Zipheir: siraben: C wins the portability contest hands-down.
2018-07-29T04:58:15Z aeth: You probably shouldn't use C on anything that's connected to the network
2018-07-29T04:58:32Z Zipheir: siraben: Also the "exploding in your face" contest, hands-down.
2018-07-29T04:58:33Z siraben: Zipheir: But... 32 bit vs 64 bit, little-endian vs big-endian etc.
2018-07-29T04:58:38Z aeth: C is insecure by design and the C programs we all use are very battle-tested
2018-07-29T04:58:49Z siraben: Emphasis on "battle"
2018-07-29T04:59:17Z siraben: Because testing programs in C is very adverse, it's almost abuse
2018-07-29T05:00:21Z Zipheir: Perspective on C: dynamic allocation is basic to the language, but malloc--the standard function most people use to do it--is unsafe.
2018-07-29T05:01:04Z aeth: C's not bad if you avoid dynamic allocation
2018-07-29T05:01:28Z Zipheir: Which means goodbye user input.
2018-07-29T05:01:39Z siraben: Does Python do tail-call optimization?
2018-07-29T05:01:42Z Zipheir: Well, unless your program is incredibly unfriendly.
2018-07-29T05:01:53Z aeth: siraben: no
2018-07-29T05:01:54Z Zipheir: No.
2018-07-29T05:02:02Z siraben: No wonder recursion sucks in Python
2018-07-29T05:02:10Z aeth: siraben: Python is explicitly imperative and the BFDL regrets allowing even what little FP he allowed into the language
2018-07-29T05:02:11Z Zipheir: And their idea of lambda is brain-damaged.
2018-07-29T05:02:29Z klovett quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
2018-07-29T05:02:35Z aeth: And any lambda turns your code into an unreadable mess. The "clean" syntax wasn't designed with it in mind
2018-07-29T05:02:46Z aeth: I hope you like needlessly naming your functions
2018-07-29T05:02:51Z siraben: But is an problem formulated with map, filter, reduce not more elegant than a bunch of imperative operations?
2018-07-29T05:03:08Z aeth: In Python, you try to do it with list comprehensions instead
2018-07-29T05:03:26Z siraben: Maybe Haskell should be a beginner's language
2018-07-29T05:03:28Z aeth: But pretty much that whole set of things is designed for one-liners
2018-07-29T05:03:36Z aeth: map doesn't look good past a one liner
2018-07-29T05:03:49Z siraben: I think type annotations makes it easier on new progammers
2018-07-29T05:04:10Z aeth: It depends on the programmer
2018-07-29T05:04:21Z aeth: Types are pretty necessary once you make a large enough program, though, imo.
2018-07-29T05:04:23Z siraben: And the teacher too
2018-07-29T05:04:45Z aeth: s/Types/Static types/
2018-07-29T05:04:56Z aeth: Although a program lacking types can be a problem, too. JS has, what? 4?
2018-07-29T05:04:58Z siraben: A bad teacher will make Scheme a hot mess, perhaps turning it into an imperative language!
2018-07-29T05:05:28Z siraben: aeth: An operation like x = x + 1 can mean something else if x is an object with a toString method
2018-07-29T05:05:34Z aeth: I think most Scheme classes leave people thinking that Scheme is entirely about lists, without ever touching on macros (i.e. the main use of lists)
2018-07-29T05:05:51Z siraben: Yeah, SICP made me think like that
2018-07-29T05:06:00Z aeth: If people were taught to use Scheme like an imperative language, at least they'd be doing useful things in Scheme, and not a bunch of inefficient, cryptic list operations
2018-07-29T05:06:11Z Zipheir: aeth: ??
2018-07-29T05:06:14Z siraben: (set! x (cons 'a x))
2018-07-29T05:06:45Z Zipheir: siraben: NO, bad.
2018-07-29T05:06:56Z siraben: but I think C is a good language too, but its unhelpful error messages (read: "Segmentation fault") drive beginners away
2018-07-29T05:07:11Z siraben: But!  Learning Rust has surprisingly been good because of the nice compiler
2018-07-29T05:07:32Z siraben: C is a good language for beginners to understand data structures, for instance^
2018-07-29T05:07:35Z aeth: siraben: C compilers are very helpful these days and I think most students are told to run their program through valgrind, which will catch a lot of seg faults
2018-07-29T05:07:39Z siraben: hash tables, linked lists, arrays, etc.
2018-07-29T05:08:12Z siraben: Zipheir: What about monadic parsers?
2018-07-29T05:08:15Z aeth: Zipheir: A modern Lisp does way more than operations on cons cells
2018-07-29T05:08:24Z Zipheir: aeth: I imagine most people learning C these days are learning C++.
2018-07-29T05:08:33Z aeth: But that's pretty much all that's taught so Lisp or Scheme is usually seen as useless
2018-07-29T05:08:39Z aeth: (conses, I mean)
2018-07-29T05:08:53Z siraben: I think lists are useful for prototyping
2018-07-29T05:09:05Z siraben: Then you move on to vectors, objects in CL, record-types, what not
2018-07-29T05:10:22Z Zipheir: I've seen the argument that lists are bad and should be avoided, etc., but they're wonderfully simple and perfect for recursion.
2018-07-29T05:11:08Z aeth: I think a lot of people would be surprised to hear that there's more than just lists. In fact, even language creators get the wrong impression of Lisp and Scheme. Lua, where nearly everything is quite literally a table, was inspired by Scheme. I guess they thought that everything was a list there. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lua_(programming_language)#History
2018-07-29T05:11:37Z Zipheir: Right, the dictionary-structure-as-primary-type thing.
2018-07-29T05:11:44Z aeth: Lua and Tcl are afaik much better examples of single-data-structure languages.
2018-07-29T05:11:52Z aeth: (Strings in Tcl)
2018-07-29T05:12:02Z aeth: Of course, both actually fake it for efficiency purposes
2018-07-29T05:12:59Z Zipheir: Obviously Lisps provide more than just lists. But this anti-list stance is rank hipsterism!
2018-07-29T05:13:38Z aeth: I didn't say I'm anti-list, I'm just saying in practice they're mostly used in macros, at least for me.
2018-07-29T05:13:42Z fadein quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
2018-07-29T05:14:03Z aeth: While I use lists in different places, 9/10 if I'm dealing with a list, it ultimately comes from a macro
2018-07-29T05:14:15Z aeth: Teaching lists without teaching macros is just wrong
2018-07-29T05:14:33Z Zipheir: I do think Haskell's abstraction of the Foldable, Traversable, etc. classes is an interesting approach, since you can apply the same recursive patterns familiar from list programming to, say, maps.
2018-07-29T05:14:51Z aeth: Well, CL has the concept of a sequence. Scheme does not.
2018-07-29T05:14:59Z Zipheir: Hmm, interesting.
2018-07-29T05:15:19Z aeth: CL doesn't quite go far enough, though. It should have collections, and you should be able to map over a hash table instead of having to use maphash (map alone would just work on values, not keys/values, I guess)
2018-07-29T05:15:48Z aeth: Unrelated, but I was going to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lisp_(programming_language) to look at some of Lisp's history and... it has a language logo now?
2018-07-29T05:16:04Z skapata quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2018-07-29T05:16:40Z aeth: It's the logo from Common-Lisp.net, apparently. It's only on [[Lisp (programming language)]] and not [[Common Lisp]], too.
2018-07-29T05:17:33Z Zipheir: siraben: Sorry, here's the tutorial presentation http://www.cs.nott.ac.uk/~pszgmh/pearl.pdf They're really beautiful.
2018-07-29T05:17:35Z aeth: Apparently this revision. https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Lisp_%28programming_language%29&type=revision&diff=845926468&oldid=844340968
2018-07-29T05:17:38Z rudybot: http://teensy.info/w4QtbnpVyD
2018-07-29T05:17:45Z Zipheir: rudybot: ty
2018-07-29T05:17:46Z rudybot: Zipheir: that's what I needed, ty.
2018-07-29T05:17:50Z Zipheir: lol
2018-07-29T05:18:27Z Zipheir: Oh wow, it does have a logo now.
2018-07-29T05:22:01Z siraben: Zipheir: aeth: Well, in C, everything is a byte!
2018-07-29T05:22:13Z siraben: They can be what you want them to be.
2018-07-29T05:22:24Z aeth: siraben: Which, again, might not be true under the hood for performance reasons!
2018-07-29T05:22:27Z aeth: e.g. floats
2018-07-29T05:22:29Z siraben: Zipheir: Thanks I'll take a look at monadic parsers
2018-07-29T05:22:42Z aeth: siraben: So C has the same issue that Lua and Tcl have!
2018-07-29T05:22:55Z siraben: aeth: What are floats but a sequence of bits waiting to be coerced an an int?
2018-07-29T05:23:02Z siraben: With a cheap hack
2018-07-29T05:23:11Z Zipheir: Weak typing is a terrible thing.
2018-07-29T05:23:11Z siraben: But point taken.
2018-07-29T05:23:24Z aeth: siraben: It's actually expensive to coerce them because this is a place where the C model breaks down
2018-07-29T05:23:28Z siraben: So anyone here try Rust before?
2018-07-29T05:23:32Z aeth: fast inverse square root no longer is fast
2018-07-29T05:23:44Z aeth: (well, it's not the fastest way to do what it's supposed to do)
2018-07-29T05:23:45Z siraben: Immutability by default, FP features, pattern matching, clear semantics with GC
2018-07-29T05:23:51Z siraben: Strong typign
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2018-07-29T05:24:38Z Zipheir: siraben: Watch it, I got scolded by pjb for asking people for their opinions on non-Scheme languages here.
2018-07-29T05:24:46Z Zipheir: siraben: :)
2018-07-29T05:25:26Z siraben: Oof sorry
2018-07-29T05:25:50Z siraben: I should hang out in language-specific channels more, but haven't really found them too useful apart from small tidbits
2018-07-29T05:26:03Z siraben: Or learning resources
2018-07-29T05:26:16Z siraben: And some of them are just dead...
2018-07-29T05:26:18Z siraben: Like this one!
2018-07-29T05:26:49Z Zipheir: Pfft, this channel has been busy the last few weeks.
2018-07-29T05:29:15Z Zipheir: siraben: Language channels tend to have a lot of quick 'can I do this' questions rather than discussions. So yes, usually the take-aways are small, ime.
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2018-07-29T05:30:02Z Zipheir: siraben: Speaking of C, ##c is a scary place. People are much nicer here.
2018-07-29T05:30:43Z siraben: Zipheir: I went to ##c before, what made it scary?
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2018-07-29T05:30:58Z siraben: Lurked in ##java for a bit, very hostile
2018-07-29T05:31:23Z siraben: Oh the ##c people are utterly convinced C is the ultimate language of the universe and other languages are weird
2018-07-29T05:31:56Z Zipheir: siraben: When I lurked there a few years back, it seemed like the channel was very condescending and talked down to anyone with a question.
2018-07-29T05:32:21Z siraben: Oh, damn.
2018-07-29T05:32:36Z siraben: As #emacs described it, "full of old white men"
2018-07-29T05:32:37Z Zipheir: siraben: And berated people for asking "unrelated" questions, which seemed to be anything not explicitly in the ISO C standard. :)
2018-07-29T05:32:47Z Zipheir: lol. That's pretty harsh.
2018-07-29T05:32:54Z siraben: They kept referring people to the C standard
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2018-07-29T05:33:55Z Zipheir: That sounds familiar.
2018-07-29T05:34:24Z siraben: The C standard is ugly, R5RS is gold
2018-07-29T05:34:50Z aeth: idk, Scheme peaked at r3rs
2018-07-29T05:35:06Z Zipheir: C--what are we up to know, C15?--is unreadable.
2018-07-29T05:35:17Z siraben: Do you have a copy of r3rs?
2018-07-29T05:35:21Z Zipheir: (the standard I mean)
2018-07-29T05:35:39Z aeth: just a quick search: https://groups.csail.mit.edu/mac/ftpdir/scheme-reports/r3rs-html/r3rs_toc.html
2018-07-29T05:35:48Z Zipheir: R2RS had poetry, according to jcowan :)
2018-07-29T05:35:55Z aeth: I've seen r4rs before
2018-07-29T05:35:59Z aeth: I think all the old ones are webified
2018-07-29T05:36:03Z aeth: PDFs might be harder to find
2018-07-29T05:36:04Z siraben: No macros in R3RS????
2018-07-29T05:36:07Z siraben: "Scheme does not have any standard facility for defining new kinds of expressions. "
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2018-07-29T05:36:17Z aeth: siraben: hygienic macros were an optional appendix in r4rs iirc
2018-07-29T05:36:18Z Zipheir: siraben: No, syntax-rules came about in R5
2018-07-29T05:36:36Z siraben: aeth: Why did Scheme peak in R3RS?
2018-07-29T05:36:41Z aeth: I was joking
2018-07-29T05:36:45Z siraben: Oh ok
2018-07-29T05:36:54Z aeth: But this lack of macros is probably why they don't teach macros with Scheme in lots of places where they teach Scheme
2018-07-29T05:37:23Z aeth: This lack of macros in 1986
2018-07-29T05:37:30Z siraben: R2RS pdf: https://dspace.mit.edu/bitstream/handle/1721.1/5600/AIM-848.pdf
2018-07-29T05:37:49Z siraben: aeth: They used macro constructs implicitly though
2018-07-29T05:37:57Z siraben: in SICP, like `cons-stream' `collect' etc.
2018-07-29T05:38:09Z aeth: Not directly related to Scheme, but here are the old Lisp Machine manuals: http://bitsavers.trailing-edge.com/pdf/mit/cadr/
2018-07-29T05:38:32Z siraben: Why did the Lisp machines die out?
2018-07-29T05:38:36Z aeth: There's some other Lisp stuff in the parent directory: http://bitsavers.trailing-edge.com/pdf/mit/
2018-07-29T05:38:59Z aeth: LISP I manual. Now *that* is a manual. http://bitsavers.trailing-edge.com/pdf/mit/rle_lisp/LISP_I_Programmers_Manual_Mar60.pdf
2018-07-29T05:39:00Z Zipheir: siraben: Killed by the Wintel microcomputer revolution, I believe
2018-07-29T05:39:12Z siraben: http://bitsavers.trailing-edge.com/pdf/mit/cadr/CADR_brochure2.jpg
2018-07-29T05:39:15Z Zipheir: aeth: Aw yeah
2018-07-29T05:39:22Z siraben: Emacs!
2018-07-29T05:39:37Z siraben: Emacs is the last lisp machine of our days
2018-07-29T05:39:56Z aeth: siraben: When cheaper x86 hardware ran Common Lisp faster than the specialized Lisp Machines could, that kind of killed the point of Lisp Machines.
2018-07-29T05:40:07Z aeth: Of course, Lisp itself was in decline, too.
2018-07-29T05:40:22Z siraben: aeth: Aww
2018-07-29T05:40:27Z siraben: Is Lisp still in decline?
2018-07-29T05:40:39Z siraben: With Scheme, Clojure, CL, Racket et al
2018-07-29T05:41:20Z Zipheir: It's having a good decade, according to Wikipedia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lisp_(programming_language)#2000_to_present
2018-07-29T05:41:29Z aeth: Lots of people *want* to use Lisp for things, even though they might not currently. e.g. this is the Lisp Game Jam 2018. https://itch.io/jam/lisp-game-jam-2018/entries
2018-07-29T05:41:38Z aeth: 27 entries, but probably 80+ people attempted
2018-07-29T05:41:49Z aeth: One of them iirc had over 100, but not many entries
2018-07-29T05:41:58Z siraben: Emacs Lisp is still very active
2018-07-29T05:42:08Z siraben: The community I mean
2018-07-29T05:42:13Z Zipheir: I keep meaning to knuckle-down and do one of those jams...
2018-07-29T05:42:14Z aeth: Emacs Lisp is probably the most popular Lisp by lines of code and it's also probably the most outdated/ugly Lisp
2018-07-29T05:42:15Z siraben: Because of all the packages that are constantly being made
2018-07-29T05:42:36Z siraben: It's a hot mess in some areas
2018-07-29T05:42:44Z siraben: New code is written with lexical scoping now
2018-07-29T05:42:51Z aeth: Another problem Emacs Lisp has is that a lot of it is written by people who don't know Lisp
2018-07-29T05:43:14Z aeth: It's easier to write decent elisp if you know another Lisp language
2018-07-29T05:43:16Z siraben: It's very idiomatic to do non-idiomatic things in Emacs Lisp
2018-07-29T05:43:23Z Zipheir: lol
2018-07-29T05:43:30Z aeth: The Lisp/Scheme-related elisp packages actually are readable, too!
2018-07-29T05:43:40Z siraben: aeth: *cough* org-mode *cough*
2018-07-29T05:44:05Z siraben: There's a lot of legacy code in Emacs
2018-07-29T05:44:38Z Zipheir: The good thing is that a lot of it is at the Lisp level, but still--no one does bloat like GNU.
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2018-07-29T05:44:42Z aeth: siraben: Well, I've heard it described like this. Emacs Lisp is like a historic Lisp, where you want to rely on built-ins because the language itself isn't very fast. Compare this with something like SBCL or Chez Scheme, where that sort of thinking sounds ridiculous.
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2018-07-29T05:45:17Z siraben:  aeth: Yes, built-in functions are used heavily when possible.
2018-07-29T05:45:20Z aeth: So it does have a different, archaic style to it, although modern styles will run, just not in the most efficient way
2018-07-29T05:46:11Z siraben: Emacs Lisp incorporated some features from Common Lisp
2018-07-29T05:46:22Z siraben: cl-let cl-defun cl-loop etc.
2018-07-29T05:46:40Z aeth: Most Emacs Lisp code that doesn't use the Emacs APIs directly would run in Common Lisp. It will just look... like you stepped out of a time machine from 1979 or something. setq, etc.
2018-07-29T05:47:14Z siraben: Yeah I was confused why Common Lisp used setf and the Practical Common Lisp book said that setq is old -_-
2018-07-29T05:47:15Z aeth: cl-let, cl-defun, etc., also shows elisp's age. Why isn't it cl:let like it would be if CL was called something else and needed CL compatibility?
2018-07-29T05:47:28Z aeth: prefixes are so C
2018-07-29T05:47:38Z siraben: Because it's not idiomatic to use : in names of functions
2018-07-29T05:47:39Z siraben: Or variables
2018-07-29T05:47:48Z Zipheir: Someone™ should write a small, redesigned emacs with Chibi Scheme replacing elisp.
2018-07-29T05:47:49Z siraben: There's also foo--bar
2018-07-29T05:48:11Z siraben: Zipheir: There's been multiple attempts at rewriting Emacs from scratch, but to no avail.
2018-07-29T05:48:15Z aeth: siraben: In CL, symbols are namespaced to packages. cl:let refers to LET in the CL package, which is just the nickname for the COMMON-LISP package
2018-07-29T05:48:47Z siraben: There's no namespace except for the global namespace in elisp
2018-07-29T05:48:50Z aeth: Generally, you (:use #:cl) so you don't have to write cl:let directly
2018-07-29T05:48:55Z aeth: siraben: right
2018-07-29T05:49:12Z aeth: elisp is the most archaic Lisp that people still use
2018-07-29T05:49:20Z aeth: (and that's good because otherwise the honor would go to CL)
2018-07-29T05:49:45Z siraben: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lisp_(programming_language)#Timeline
2018-07-29T05:49:51Z siraben: Scheme is older than both
2018-07-29T05:49:59Z aeth: Scheme renames everything. Newer Lisps like Clojure and even to some extent Racket are more radically different.
2018-07-29T05:50:29Z aeth: Common Lisp is newer than the first Scheme, but it doesn't rename everything, so most old Lisps (including elisp) run in CL with minimal modifications
2018-07-29T05:50:45Z aeth: So it's kind of strange that GNU, home of two CL implementations, is trying to switch Emacs to Guile.
2018-07-29T05:50:52Z aeth: If they switched Emacs to CL they would have finished that years ago
2018-07-29T05:51:12Z Zipheir: GNU is a firm believer in NIH.
2018-07-29T05:51:12Z siraben: I don't know what their insistence on using Guile is about
2018-07-29T05:51:37Z siraben: They wrote an entire package manager and distro in Guile just to prove a point, I guess.
2018-07-29T05:51:43Z siraben: Zipheir: NIH?
2018-07-29T05:51:52Z aeth: Zipheir: It made sense when everything was proprietary software except for GNU software and legally-not-clear BSD software
2018-07-29T05:51:56Z Zipheir: Not Invented Here. A well-known bug.
2018-07-29T05:52:19Z siraben: For that matter, Richard Stallman wants a WYSIWYG editing mode in Emacs
2018-07-29T05:52:24Z siraben: Because "libreoffice is not emacs"
2018-07-29T05:52:58Z siraben: https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/emacs-devel/2018-03/msg00189.html
2018-07-29T05:53:04Z aeth: To be fair, LibreOffice is a failure, especially Calc
2018-07-29T05:53:05Z siraben: "LibreOffice is free software, and it's ethical, but it isn't Emacs."
2018-07-29T05:53:34Z siraben: LibreOffice a failure?  I've used it to write some reports that weren't able to be done well in LaTeX
2018-07-29T05:53:46Z siraben: They recently released LibreOffice 6
2018-07-29T05:53:59Z aeth: Compare Firefox, which destroyed IE, to LibreOffice, which is still very inferior to even old versions Microsoft Office, especially outside of Writer.
2018-07-29T05:54:17Z siraben: I've never used Microsoft Office, so I can't say
2018-07-29T05:54:27Z siraben: But I have used Apple's iWork suite, and libreoffice's presentation tool is still inferior
2018-07-29T05:54:40Z siraben: And Pages is great at layout
2018-07-29T05:54:51Z siraben: Numbers is somewhat clunky but good for sketching out ideas
2018-07-29T05:55:46Z Zipheir: aeth: C'mon, "not the most popular program of its kind on the planet" ≠ "failure"
2018-07-29T05:56:15Z aeth: Zipheir: It's not about popularity. Firefox didn't really win the popularity contest (Chrome did)
2018-07-29T05:56:39Z aeth: Outside of LibreOffice Writer, the MS Office equivalents are very clearly superior to the LibreOffice ones
2018-07-29T05:56:44Z Zipheir: aeth: Ah, ok.
2018-07-29T05:56:50Z siraben: Hm.
2018-07-29T05:57:00Z siraben: aeth: For instance?
2018-07-29T05:57:14Z siraben: As in the specific features that make libreoffice inferior
2018-07-29T05:57:51Z aeth: Just try to use its PowerPoint and Excel equivalents and then use PowerPoint and Excel. It's hard to describe, and I rarely use office suites so I'm not the best person to ask
2018-07-29T05:58:08Z siraben: Neither do I.  I think it's a familiarity thing.
2018-07-29T05:58:16Z aeth: I'm more familiar with LibreOffice!
2018-07-29T05:58:21Z siraben: same!
2018-07-29T05:58:28Z siraben: Except, I've never used Present
2018-07-29T05:58:31Z siraben: just writer
2018-07-29T05:58:38Z siraben: I mean Impress
2018-07-29T05:59:11Z aeth: Impress is terrible at its job. Anyone who releases PowerPoint slides instead of a PDF of the slides is just going to make me suffer
2018-07-29T05:59:14Z siraben: With all these office suites you can shoot yourself in the foot and make an ugly document
2018-07-29T05:59:26Z Zipheir: To be fair, Office is pretty much MS's flagship product. They probably spend several orders of magnitude more money on it than the Document Foundation can muster.
2018-07-29T05:59:30Z aeth: At least LibreOffice Calc usually can build you the equivalent of an Excel spreadsheet, even though it's harder
2018-07-29T05:59:50Z siraben: Zipheir: I find MS Office extremely bulky and awkward to use, but then I haven't used it that much
2018-07-29T05:59:51Z aeth: Zipheir: Absolutely. Firefox competed with a neglected, fixed IE6
2018-07-29T06:00:02Z siraben: Most people don't even know advanced features of office suites
2018-07-29T06:00:02Z aeth: Zipheir: But on the other hand LibreOffice is inferior to really old MS Office versions too
2018-07-29T06:00:04Z siraben: So it's the same to them
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2018-07-29T06:00:37Z Zipheir: But otoh, screw office suites.
2018-07-29T06:00:51Z siraben: Pfft who needs them
2018-07-29T06:01:09Z siraben: Is it just me or I can't really put latex images where I want to them exactly sometimes
2018-07-29T06:01:12Z siraben: I should ask in #latex
2018-07-29T06:01:17Z aeth: As a programmer, I'm more at home with programming, but Excel is the favorite IDE of non-programmers.
2018-07-29T06:01:40Z aeth: And of course I use LaTeX because it is easier... when you need math and tables and maybe to embed source code files, etc.
2018-07-29T06:02:13Z Zipheir: People love Excel irrationally.
2018-07-29T06:02:39Z siraben: I don't see the point of excel, there are clearly superior tools that are also Free Software.
2018-07-29T06:02:56Z siraben: gnuplot, GNU octave, Emacs + org-mode etc
2018-07-29T06:03:10Z siraben: Funnily enough, gnuplot is not related to the GNU project at all!
2018-07-29T06:03:24Z aeth: eh
2018-07-29T06:03:31Z siraben: Is it because writing Excel code feels like COBOL?
2018-07-29T06:03:42Z aeth: org-mode tables can be used as a very cheap knockoff of a spreadsheet program that's probably less capable than the first spreadsheet program.
2018-07-29T06:04:05Z siraben: Again, depends on what you use spreadsheets for.
2018-07-29T06:04:07Z Zipheir: siraben: It's like writing COBOL on a TI-89 :)
2018-07-29T06:04:10Z aeth: Well, I know because I use them all the time because they produce something that looks perfectly readable as ASCII text files
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2018-07-29T06:04:44Z siraben: I have a TI-84, and it's sad that TI won't allow modification of the OS
2018-07-29T06:04:59Z siraben: Imagine a lisp machine on a calculator
2018-07-29T06:05:11Z aeth: well...
2018-07-29T06:05:19Z aeth: HP did RPN and had "reverse polish lisp"
2018-07-29T06:05:24Z aeth: RPN as in 1 1 +
2018-07-29T06:05:31Z Zipheir: Wouldn't want that cutting-edge 1984 code to end up in the hands of TI's competitors.
2018-07-29T06:05:32Z siraben: Emacs Calculator does htat
2018-07-29T06:05:49Z aeth: This is the calculator I use on Android. https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=org.ab.x48&hl=en
2018-07-29T06:05:58Z siraben: Zipheir: umm... TI-84 was introduced in 2004
2018-07-29T06:06:10Z siraben: technically it's TI-84 "Plus" even though there was never an original TI-84
2018-07-29T06:06:15Z aeth: siraben: And it sure is a big improvement over a TI-83, right?
2018-07-29T06:06:24Z siraben: Supposedly
2018-07-29T06:06:30Z siraben: No yes
2018-07-29T06:06:32Z siraben: It is
2018-07-29T06:06:47Z siraben: TI-BASIC is an ugly mess
2018-07-29T06:07:12Z aeth: The problem with TI calculators is that they're weak on purpose because anything stronger could be (and thus would be) used to cheat on standardized tests. And the main demand for them is students taking tests.
2018-07-29T06:07:15Z siraben: A lot of downloadable TI programs are written in ASM
2018-07-29T06:07:23Z Zipheir: siraben: I'm kidding. My friends in college used to joke that in TI-n, n referred to the year the OS was written
2018-07-29T06:07:45Z siraben: aeth: I have an arbitrary precision RPN ASM program in my TI
2018-07-29T06:07:46Z Zipheir: TI-BASIC is fun is a brain damaged way
2018-07-29T06:08:18Z aeth: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TI-81
2018-07-29T06:08:23Z aeth: Really, they're all rebranded TI-81s :p
2018-07-29T06:08:27Z siraben: Zipheir: Not sure if I've mentioned this, but I wrote a compiler from SICP register machine language to Z80 assembly and tested it on my calculator
2018-07-29T06:08:50Z aeth: woah, looks like they have a "modern" calculator, though. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TI-Nspire_series
2018-07-29T06:09:00Z siraben: ^a subset of SICP register machine language (no conses, strings are only for output, only integers etc.)
2018-07-29T06:09:07Z Zipheir: aeth: Nothing has changed. https://xkcd.com/768/
2018-07-29T06:09:11Z siraben: And was too lazy to implement conses and so on
2018-07-29T06:09:27Z siraben: AFAIK there are no lisp compilers for TI-84
2018-07-29T06:09:31Z Zipheir: siraben: Wow, that's actually really cool
2018-07-29T06:09:55Z siraben: Of course, the assembly code is very unoptimized
2018-07-29T06:09:58Z siraben: Let me whip up an example
2018-07-29T06:10:00Z Zipheir: siraben: Do you have a repo for that?
2018-07-29T06:10:12Z siraben: Zipheir: No I currently don't.  I should, though.
2018-07-29T06:10:18Z siraben: Actually, let me upload it to GitHub now!
2018-07-29T06:10:31Z Zipheir: Microsoft thanks you for your patronage.
2018-07-29T06:10:56Z siraben: Oh, forgot that microsoft bought github
2018-07-29T06:11:17Z siraben: Zipheir: haha don't judge my scheme too harshly, pull requests welcome
2018-07-29T06:11:35Z siraben: It's the largest Scheme program I've written to date, but not sure what to do next
2018-07-29T06:11:39Z siraben: Debugging Z80 asm is not fun
2018-07-29T06:17:06Z siraben: Zipheir: https://github.com/siraben/sicp-to-z80
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2018-07-29T06:18:11Z Zipheir: siraben: ty
2018-07-29T06:18:54Z siraben: Notice line 448 the amount of set!
2018-07-29T06:20:11Z Zipheir: That's not weird. It's the compiler's main entry point, in any case.
2018-07-29T06:20:45Z siraben: Not sure if my `define-program' macro is up to scratch
2018-07-29T06:23:43Z Zipheir: Very cool, I will try to go through it in detail sometime this weekend.
2018-07-29T06:23:55Z siraben: Do you have a TI lying around?
2018-07-29T06:24:10Z Zipheir: I do actually, I forgot what model
2018-07-29T06:24:20Z siraben: Should work if you have the USB cable
2018-07-29T06:24:30Z Zipheir: Fun, it's an 84.
2018-07-29T06:24:34Z siraben: Yay
2018-07-29T06:24:36Z siraben: Beware: buggy ASM will clear RAM!
2018-07-29T06:24:44Z siraben: I've had more RAM resets than I can count
2018-07-29T06:25:01Z siraben: Do you know Z80 asm?
2018-07-29T06:25:05Z Zipheir: Well, that's the fun on running on the bare metal
2018-07-29T06:25:34Z Zipheir: No, I've only seen some examples. It's pretty sane, though, from what I've seen.
2018-07-29T06:26:43Z siraben: I've deliberately limited the instruction set and registers I use, this is a pretty sane subset
2018-07-29T06:26:50Z Zipheir: siraben: Oh, different subject, but have you checked out scsh?
2018-07-29T06:26:58Z siraben: Scheme shell?
2018-07-29T06:27:11Z Zipheir: Yeah
2018-07-29T06:27:11Z siraben: It seems interesting
2018-07-29T06:27:36Z siraben: I haven't the time now, but eventually I want to write a toy compiler from Scheme to Z80 with closures, GC and the like
2018-07-29T06:28:05Z siraben: Zipheir: Essentials of programming languages apparently is enough to get one there
2018-07-29T06:28:29Z Zipheir: Cool, sounds like fun
2018-07-29T06:34:13Z Zipheir: Going back to the high school ideas, a great CS class would be one where students start learning asm and end up writing a rudimentary OS and compiler. Probably not for Scheme, but given some more time...
2018-07-29T06:35:30Z siraben: Oof but Z80 assembly is a pain
2018-07-29T06:35:51Z siraben: Zipheir: I used this as an invaluable resource: http://tutorials.eeems.ca/ASMin28Days/lesson/toc.html
2018-07-29T06:36:19Z Zipheir: Probably ARM asm, since single-board computers are a lot cheaper than TI calculators :D
2018-07-29T06:36:40Z siraben: Haha true!
2018-07-29T06:36:41Z Zipheir: Nice resource!
2018-07-29T06:39:19Z siraben: Zipheir: Here's an example of the output: https://pastebin.com/V907KXDU
2018-07-29T06:39:31Z siraben: See the abuse of "ld"
2018-07-29T06:41:40Z Zipheir: That's a lot of ld, indeed
2018-07-29T06:41:49Z Zipheir: Does it work?
2018-07-29T06:42:14Z daviid quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2018-07-29T06:46:29Z siraben: Yes!
2018-07-29T06:46:38Z siraben: Should print the numbers from 1 to 10 or something like that
2018-07-29T06:46:42Z siraben: I'll add more info in a README
2018-07-29T06:49:17Z Zipheir: Great
2018-07-29T06:50:00Z Zipheir: It's late here, so I'm going to be AFK. cya, siraben :)
2018-07-29T06:50:38Z siraben: Ok, see you Zipheir, nice talking.
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2018-07-29T13:33:01Z phao: Hi. I've just installed mit-scheme from source. I may have done something wrong, but I can't seem to use SOS stuff.
2018-07-29T13:34:11Z phao: I'm new to mit scheme. I'm looking through the docs right now, but not really finding anything (not that I have looked much though). Any clues on how I use SOS from mit-scheme?
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2018-07-29T13:38:50Z siraben: phao: What do you mean, SOS?
2018-07-29T13:39:07Z siraben: Are you talking about the sum of squares procedure from the SICP lectures?
2018-07-29T13:39:13Z phao: I mean this https://groups.csail.mit.edu/mac/ftpdir/scheme-7.5/7.5.17/doc-html/sos.html
2018-07-29T13:39:25Z siraben: Oh
2018-07-29T13:39:38Z phao: It comes with mit-scheme.
2018-07-29T13:40:09Z siraben: Hmm.  Nowadays the standard is to use record-types with R6RS and above standard conforming implementations
2018-07-29T13:40:19Z siraben: If you want object-like behavior
2018-07-29T13:40:34Z siraben: I'm not familiar with this library, sorr.y
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2018-07-29T13:41:17Z wasamasa: phao: time to study how to load bundled libraries in mit-scheme
2018-07-29T13:41:27Z phao: ok
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2018-07-29T13:44:57Z phao: wasamasa, where do I find about this. I can't find it in the mit scheme reference manual
2018-07-29T13:45:00Z phao: ?
2018-07-29T13:45:02Z wasamasa: ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
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2018-07-29T13:51:00Z phao: (load-option 'sos) does the trick it seems
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2018-07-29T15:22:01Z daviid: phao: fwiw, a few scheme implementtin do implement a clos based oop system, guile, gauche, sagitarius ... it seems to me that sos is 18y unmaintained
2018-07-29T15:23:55Z daviid: and rs6rs record type are nice, byt they won't give you the power of generic function ... unless you use guile ...
2018-07-29T15:26:55Z daviid: *r6rs
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2018-07-29T15:57:00Z jcowan_: generic functions will be coming to an R7RS-large standard near you
2018-07-29T15:57:08Z jcowan_: (well, if the committee upvotes them)
2018-07-29T15:57:34Z jcowan_: there is a decent portable implementation in Chibi already (well, portable if your scheme has low-level macros, which most do)
2018-07-29T15:58:07Z jcowan_: Generic functions are the best part of OOP, which is why most "OOP" languages don't have them
2018-07-29T15:58:19Z daviid: imo, the best is the mop
2018-07-29T16:00:30Z daviid: and it has to have a class system, multiple inheritance ... imo
2018-07-29T16:03:01Z jcowan_: these are predicate-based generic functions, so they don't depend on classes
2018-07-29T16:04:10Z jcowan_: OTOH we may never be able to standardize low-level macros in R7RS
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2018-07-29T16:07:21Z phao: daviid, ok
2018-07-29T16:09:29Z daviid: phao: np!
2018-07-29T16:12:23Z jcowan: the main issue with the Chibi implementation is that there is no way to specify the subsumption relationship between predicates
2018-07-29T16:13:53Z jcowan: it simply assumes that supermethpds are declared before submethods
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2018-07-29T17:51:14Z kyby64: hi everybody.i defined count like this -> https://pastecode.xyz/view/76956505
2018-07-29T17:51:16Z kyby64: when i define c like this (define c (count)) then i call (c) i get this error-> Exception: attempt to apply non-procedure 0
2018-07-29T17:51:20Z kyby64: can someone explain to me what i'm doing wrong.(sorry for my english)
2018-07-29T17:51:40Z wasamasa: (define c count)
2018-07-29T17:51:49Z wasamasa: you're setting c to the result of calling count with no arguments
2018-07-29T17:51:57Z wasamasa: what you want to do is setting c to the value of count
2018-07-29T17:52:46Z wasamasa: scheme is a lisp-1, so functions are just another kind of value you can bind to an identifier
2018-07-29T17:54:39Z kyby64: thanks wasamasa.so if i want bind a variable like c to a procedure (without arg) i shouldnt use ().right?
2018-07-29T17:55:02Z wasamasa: it doesn't matter how many arguments the procedure takes
2018-07-29T17:55:06Z wasamasa: but yet
2018-07-29T17:55:29Z wasamasa: wrapping something into parentheses may call a procedure with arguments
2018-07-29T17:56:46Z kyby64: so if cound had arg and i define c like this (define c (count arg)) now c is just result of count not a procedure?
2018-07-29T17:56:58Z kyby64: cound=count
2018-07-29T17:57:12Z wasamasa: c would be whatever (count arg) evaluates to
2018-07-29T17:57:34Z wasamasa: like, if (count arg) evaluates to 3, then c would be bound to 3
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2018-07-29T18:00:04Z kyby64: thank you so much wasamasa.you helped me again like the last time i had problem with iterate over list
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2018-07-29T18:34:24Z wasamasa: you're welcome
2018-07-29T18:44:29Z kyby64: wasamasa i have another problem.please look at this code.its from tspl4(i'm reading this book) https://pastecode.xyz/view/fb1e0703
2018-07-29T18:44:30Z kyby64: if i define st1 like this (define st1 make-stack)
2018-07-29T18:44:34Z kyby64: repl say me that st1 is #<procedure make-stack>
2018-07-29T18:44:40Z kyby64: but if i define st2 like this (define st (make-stack))
2018-07-29T18:44:44Z kyby64: repl say me st2 is #<procedure>
2018-07-29T18:44:48Z kyby64: i just get confused. whats the difference? why i cant pass arg to st1 but can pass to st2
2018-07-29T18:45:11Z kyby64: *can pass to st2 not st1
2018-07-29T18:45:36Z wasamasa: st1 is an alias for make-stack
2018-07-29T18:45:42Z wasamasa: st2 is the result of calling make-stack
2018-07-29T18:46:04Z wasamasa: look at the lambdas in your code, the outer one takes no args, the inner one takes many args
2018-07-29T18:46:30Z wasamasa: looking at the printed representation won't help you, you'll have to know yourself what the procedures do
2018-07-29T18:53:56Z kyby64: so i can say the st1 is first lambda or make-stack before evaluate and st2 is the second lambda or make-stack after evaluate?
2018-07-29T18:54:30Z wasamasa: yes
2018-07-29T18:56:16Z kyby64: i think i can learn scheme but very very slowly :)
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2018-07-29T21:54:19Z jcowan_: wasamasa: If I weren't committed to the R7RS effort, I'd like to implement an ISLisp
2018-07-29T21:54:55Z jcowan_: probably two of them, one on top of CL (I asked KMP to release his years ago, but he didn't) and another as a language on Kawa
2018-07-29T21:55:15Z wasamasa: KMP?
2018-07-29T21:55:29Z jcowan_: Kent M Pitman, the ISLisp editor
2018-07-29T21:56:05Z wasamasa: oh, hum
2018-07-29T21:56:18Z wasamasa: yeah, it makes sense, I'd expect it to be doable as a thin layer
2018-07-29T21:57:37Z wasamasa: openlisp is the only serious one I've found
2018-07-29T21:58:12Z wasamasa: tisl and iris fail at quite basic things
2018-07-29T21:58:47Z wasamasa: like, handling comments
2018-07-29T22:02:50Z kyby64: is there any website or github/gitlab page that collect simple scheme codes for newbies like me? something like 99 lisp problems
2018-07-29T22:07:39Z wasamasa: rosettacode does this for pretty much all programming languages
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2018-07-29T22:24:33Z X-Scale: kyby64: have you checked https://mitpress.mit.edu/books/little-schemer-fourth-edition ?
2018-07-29T22:27:44Z kyby64: yes but unfortunately its not free and its not available in my country(if be available its so expensive for me :( )
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2018-07-30T19:30:01Z amz31: seems like erlang arbiters are coming to python https://speakerdeck.com/1st1/asyncio-today-and-tomorrow
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2018-07-31T12:49:59Z mechanicalfrogs: hey everyone! having a crack at scheme coming from other Lisps. is there any way to overload a function by arity, like you can in Clojure?
2018-07-31T12:52:47Z pjb: mechanicalfrogs: (define (foo . arguments) (cond ((= 0 (length arguments)) (foo0))  ((= 1 (length arguments)) (foo1 (car arguments))) …))
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2018-07-31T12:55:08Z mechanicalfrogs: pjb: oh, that makes sense! spent ages trying to find a built-in solution but its so simple to do hahaha - thank you
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2018-07-31T13:32:11Z gwatt: There's also case-lambda, which is a bit nicer than manually dispatching based on the length
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2018-07-31T14:51:33Z Zipheir: Yeah, case-lambda is really what you want, if it's available at your local Scheme
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2018-07-31T17:21:44Z amz31: a collegue of mine compared scheme vs python discussion to tab vs space troll
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2018-07-31T17:39:50Z amz31: it's long time i did no screencast
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2018-07-31T17:39:59Z amz31: now I have the fiber
2018-07-31T17:40:00Z Zipheir: As in, debating scheme vs python is like debating what kind of whitespace is bestspace?
2018-07-31T17:41:02Z amz31: Zipheir: like scheme implemetation and language don't deserve scrutiny because it's a not a thruth seeking debate
2018-07-31T17:41:38Z amz31: I did not have time to write the paper for SCHEME2018
2018-07-31T17:42:07Z amz31: I don't now what to focus on actually
2018-07-31T17:42:28Z amz31: now that I discovered all things get blury http://bootstrappable.org/
2018-07-31T17:42:36Z amz31: or it's just an excuse for doing nothing
2018-07-31T17:43:28Z amz31: re: python vs scheme, I pardon them because anyway there is little or no discussion about technical things
2018-07-31T17:44:00Z Zipheir: Oh, ok. That sounds like an unusually wise position.
2018-07-31T17:44:27Z amz31: that said the person somehow asked me the difference between reactjs and vuejs
2018-07-31T17:45:01Z amz31: I was going to say: well, biwascheme is much easier to bootstrap than reactjs OR vuejs
2018-07-31T17:45:29Z amz31: I mean apple to apple writing a frontend in scheme is breeze
2018-07-31T17:45:31Z amz31: I mean apple to apple writing a frontend in scheme is a breeze
2018-07-31T17:45:41Z amz31: a browser frontend
2018-07-31T17:45:58Z amz31: AND the best is it supported by modern search engine
2018-07-31T17:46:12Z Zipheir: So many .js languages
2018-07-31T17:46:19Z amz31: except browser don't support tail call optimization, yet...
2018-07-31T17:46:24Z Zipheir: rm -f *.js
2018-07-31T17:47:01Z Zipheir: Does JS say anything about tail calls anyway?
2018-07-31T17:47:15Z Zipheir: It only very recently got lexical scoping.
2018-07-31T17:47:31Z amz31: Zipheir: in particular vuejs is competing for mind share I have seen no clue of its technical merits both to get started (it's has many DSLs to learn) and no performance advantage in the long run
2018-07-31T17:47:54Z amz31: Zipheir: no, I don't remember a time javascript wasn't a lexicaly scoped language
2018-07-31T17:48:13Z Zipheir: amz31: Good to know, I won't check out vue.js :)
2018-07-31T17:48:24Z amz31: Zipheir: TCO is in the spec of JavaScript whatever the standard name ACME or something
2018-07-31T17:48:39Z Zipheir: amz31: IIRC, it had function-level scoping until ECMA <whatever the current standard is>?
2018-07-31T17:49:47Z amz31: Zipheir: the alternative, to be employable, is to learn reactjs which is html + js only. no magic two bidding with lazy evaluation and streams... you choose you faith kind of destiny
2018-07-31T17:50:24Z Zipheir: amz31: Yeah, ECMA 2015 added, c.f. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/JavaScript#Imperative_and_structured
2018-07-31T17:50:58Z amz31: Zipheir: I read the initial design of JavaScript was based on Scheme, but somehow inherited an alien OO called prototypal inheritance, which boils down to (shallow) copy whole data + procedures
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2018-07-31T17:51:43Z X-Scale: ISO still has a free copy of their latest version (ECMA has newer versions): http://standards.iso.org/ittf/PubliclyAvailableStandards/c055755_ISO_IEC_16262_2011(E).zip
2018-07-31T17:51:46Z Zipheir: amz31: It's like a weird mating of Lisp and Java.
2018-07-31T17:52:13Z Zipheir: amz31: But I haven't hacked JS in like 15 years, so ignore me.
2018-07-31T17:52:34Z amz31: at the ned of the day, that's what I try to do in scheme, have data and transform it to feed a bunch of procedures
2018-07-31T17:52:52Z amz31: nop
2018-07-31T17:54:05Z Zipheir: Larry Wall called JS "a nice clean design", which is ... a little strange.
2018-07-31T17:54:36Z amz31: actually I think the SUBJECT.PREDICATE(OBJECT...) has won the mind share
2018-07-31T17:54:40Z amz31: clean...
2018-07-31T17:54:47Z Zipheir: meh
2018-07-31T17:55:17Z amz31: well, the thing is that I don't build big things in js nor in scheme so I don't know actually what is really best
2018-07-31T17:56:04Z Zipheir: Like 5.isLessThan(6)?
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2018-07-31T18:03:13Z Zipheir: As intuitive as subject/object thinking is, there are plenty of cases where it falls flat on its face.
2018-07-31T18:03:39Z amz31: IRL, such construction have names among them it's called humor
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2018-07-31T18:06:26Z Zipheir: Hmm, the only humor I can think of that exploits object-oriented thinking are programming jokes...
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2018-07-31T18:11:09Z amz31: well, no
2018-07-31T18:11:13Z amz31: not only
2018-07-31T18:11:31Z amz31: because sometime you rely, on word construction that are not obvious to provoct the interesting thought
2018-07-31T18:11:53Z amz31: time is being
2018-07-31T18:12:04Z amz31: time being is
2018-07-31T18:12:11Z amz31: is time being
2018-07-31T18:12:51Z amz31: well, like i said previously humor is not the only way people distord reading or understqnding comprehension to provoc an emotion
2018-07-31T18:13:09Z amz31: like in arab fwiw
2018-07-31T18:13:16Z amz31: most jokes rely on rhymes
2018-07-31T18:13:26Z amz31: and situation that are funny
2018-07-31T18:13:33Z amz31: but mainly rhymes makes good long jokes
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2018-07-31T18:34:16Z Zipheir: amz31: I guess that makes sense
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2018-07-31T18:38:33Z amz31: my point is OOP like Python got it up rising because people are use to SUBJECT VERB OBJECT ... pattern from their mother language, and changing for something that speaks differently is difficult
2018-07-31T18:39:12Z amz31: I've been working with Python for ten years doing classes around the country and most people agree to say that it's not bad but they don't know if it's good
2018-07-31T18:39:25Z amz31: like OOP is still looking for its principles afaiu
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2018-07-31T18:39:40Z Zipheir: Right
2018-07-31T18:41:39Z Zipheir: Functional thinking, OTOH, is not something most people pick up from their native tongue, it seems--unless they grew up speaking Boolean algebra
2018-07-31T18:43:14Z qu1j0t3: ^
2018-07-31T18:43:51Z Zipheir: I wonder if you can argue that ancient mathematics was restricted by "object thinking" and had to mature to get to its current sub specie aeternitatis worldview
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2018-07-31T18:44:33Z Zipheir: "I have three rocks, now I take away one" vs "3 - 1 = 2, 2 = 3 - 1"
2018-07-31T18:46:47Z amz31: I was that formalism helped greatly math. formalism as visual description.
2018-07-31T18:47:38Z amz31: the world is blue. blus is the world. means the same thing but you stress different things, it's cultural and situational which one is correct
2018-07-31T18:47:58Z amz31: the visual syntax is terse
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2018-07-31T18:50:17Z Zipheir: In English at least, "blue is the world" could be weird Yoda-speak
2018-07-31T18:50:58Z amz31: oh see, I did not know
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2018-07-31T18:51:06Z amz31: for me it's the same thing
2018-07-31T18:51:19Z amz31: one is passive the other is active
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2018-07-31T18:51:38Z Zipheir: amz31: In which language?
2018-07-31T18:51:54Z amz31: in french at least
2018-07-31T18:52:32Z amz31: yes it sounds like yoda even in french
2018-07-31T18:53:01Z Zipheir: Oh, ok. IIRC it's pretty much literally the same as English
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2018-07-31T18:53:32Z Zipheir: Le monde est bleu -- bleu est le monde?
2018-07-31T18:53:36Z Zipheir: My french sucks.
2018-07-31T18:54:32Z aeth: Zipheir: You're kind of right. Ancient Greek math was geometry-oriented
2018-07-31T18:54:45Z TheGreekOwl: ?
2018-07-31T18:55:29Z Zipheir: aeth: I know. I'm just wondering what the bogosity level of my argument is. :)
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2018-07-31T18:57:27Z aeth: TheGreekOwl: Either "le monde est bleu" is Greek for "ancient math was object oriented" or I was replying to < Zipheir> I wonder if you can argue that ancient mathematics was restricted by "object thinking" and had to mature to get to its current sub specie aeternitatis worldview
2018-07-31T18:57:50Z Zipheir: lol
2018-07-31T18:58:03Z aeth: (I love the laws of formal logic!)
2018-07-31T18:58:25Z Zipheir: Welcome to #scheme, everybody.
2018-07-31T18:59:33Z aeth: Zipheir: To be fair to the Greeks, there's elegant visual simplicity in some of their proofs. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_mathematics
2018-07-31T18:59:34Z amz31: TIL
2018-07-31T18:59:49Z aeth: e.g. that Pythagorean theorem
2018-07-31T19:00:27Z aeth: (I'm assuming that's part of a Greek-style proof because it has extra lines that I normally don't see in an illustration)
2018-07-31T19:00:39Z Zipheir: For example, Euclid's axioms, IIRC, are usually expressed as an action with a before and after--"Let a line be drawn between any two point"
2018-07-31T19:01:08Z Zipheir: Modern axioms abstract away "doing something", I guess
2018-07-31T19:01:31Z aeth: I don't see the same elegant visual simplicity in object oriented programming that I see in geometric proofs.
2018-07-31T19:01:48Z Zipheir: Visual proofs are really wonderful
2018-07-31T19:02:24Z amz31: tx
2018-07-31T19:02:42Z aeth: Modern OOP to me seems to be an obfuscation scheme in the name of code reuse. Anything that's heavily OOP usually has me reading very, very simple things in many places of a file, or even many files.
2018-07-31T19:03:19Z aeth: I'm not even sure they still think in terms of objects there.
2018-07-31T19:04:04Z Zipheir: aeth: You might enjoy this. Check out the floor https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pythagorean_tiling#/media/File:Jacob_Ochtervelt_-_Street_Musicians_at_the_Doorway_of_a_House_-_WGA16622.jpg
2018-07-31T19:04:07Z rudybot: http://teensy.info/Ac52cxY1yY
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2018-07-31T19:04:37Z Zipheir: rudybot: THANK YOU
2018-07-31T19:04:41Z rudybot: Zipheir: Whoever got rid of that 0/n thing in fsbot... thank you.
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2018-07-31T19:07:17Z aeth: Zipheir: Anyway I think your analogy of OOP to geometry breaks down in that geometry is often so immediately visibly obvious (well, immediate compared to a modern-style non-geometric proof) but the kind of OOP you're criticizing is the exact opposite ime and takes longer to read.
2018-07-31T19:07:35Z aeth: As far as source organization goes OOP scatters the relevant parts all over the world
2018-07-31T19:08:26Z Zipheir: aeth: I certainly wouldn't insult the ancient geometers by comparing their work to modern OOP. :)
2018-07-31T19:09:36Z Zipheir: aeth: What I think is interesting is how manipulating physical objects was for so long the way people explained and reasoned about stuff.
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2018-07-31T19:10:26Z Zipheir: aeth: And that a lot of major advances came with the realization that concepts like quantity could be abstracted and "object manipulation" dispensed with.
2018-07-31T19:11:39Z amz31: hmm
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2018-07-31T19:12:36Z aeth: Zipheir: Afaik, math pretty much started with practical geometry (e.g. for building things) and accounting (you have to tax the grain somehow).
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2018-07-31T19:13:39Z Zipheir: aeth: Fascinating ideas are always first used to solve boring problems. :D
2018-07-31T19:14:27Z aeth: Zipheir: Except for computers. Computers went the opposite direction
2018-07-31T19:14:39Z aeth: Interesting problems only and now they do the most boring things.
2018-07-31T19:14:48Z aeth: (Obviously that was because it was expensive initially.)
2018-07-31T19:14:53Z amz31: that's the tax
2018-07-31T19:14:53Z Zipheir: Right
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2018-07-31T19:20:05Z Zipheir: A direct parallel: Turing machines--this is the "I have three rocks then take away one" approach--vs. λ-calculus.
2018-07-31T19:23:44Z aeth: Both have become esolangs
2018-07-31T19:25:00Z Zipheir: Everything becomes rococco, then rubble. :)
2018-07-31T19:28:53Z aeth: Oh, to be fair there are ways to stylistically do OOP but avoid scattering your logic all over the place like I was claiming as a flaw earlier. Most of the ones I know involve macros, though.
2018-07-31T19:30:48Z Zipheir: It's really a very powerful technique, but the philosophy is bogus.
2018-07-31T19:31:42Z Zipheir: Also, the philosophy has taken over such that no one actually knows what OOP is anymore. Someone on here recently defined it as inheiritance, of all things.
2018-07-31T19:32:12Z aeth: interestingly, inheritance is probably the area that has received the most backlash
2018-07-31T19:33:03Z Zipheir: Probably because you can arbitrarily generalize pretty much anything
2018-07-31T19:33:09Z aeth: If the API uses inheritance it was probably written 15-30 years ago. :-p
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2018-07-31T19:34:30Z daviid: aeth: gnome ...
2018-07-31T19:35:21Z Zipheir: aeth: It's gone out of style??
2018-07-31T19:35:54Z Zipheir pulls his head out of the functional sand
2018-07-31T19:36:10Z aeth: Zipheir: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Composition_over_inheritance
2018-07-31T19:36:13Z amz31: btw modern frontend in javascript use functions
2018-07-31T19:36:21Z aeth: Zipheir: How that principle is realized differs depending on the person
2018-07-31T19:36:45Z aeth: The extreme is barely OOP at all
2018-07-31T19:37:14Z Zipheir: Oh, this is the sort of thing Go seems to be trying to do.
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2018-07-31T19:38:07Z Zipheir: Of course all of this is just the poor man's typeclasses.
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2018-07-31T19:38:58Z Zipheir: amz31: That's a step in the right direction, at least.
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2018-07-31T19:43:12Z daviid: javascript as an example of good language design, a sign of decadence imo :) ... reminds me alan kay saying "... and instead of cl and clos, nowaday classes, which means teacher, recommend students tomstudy C++... C++ ??? ..." did he says and that made me augh
2018-07-31T19:45:40Z Zipheir: tomstudy?
2018-07-31T19:45:41Z amz31: ^^
2018-07-31T19:45:52Z daviid: *to study
2018-07-31T19:46:34Z aeth: Zipheir: I looked up https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Type_class and it seems pretty simple.
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2018-07-31T19:47:24Z amz31: I don't have definitive answer about the OOP vs non OOP, the thing I don't have with srfi-9 is object inheriting extra properties but I solve it some other way
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2018-07-31T19:47:43Z amz31: like alist with two keys
2018-07-31T19:47:43Z Zipheir: I know people are going to throw things at me, but I think Haskell makes a convincing case for the type class flavor of inheiritance
2018-07-31T19:47:57Z amz31: idk haskell
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2018-07-31T19:48:14Z daviid: amz31: try to binf gnome in guile using srfi-9, good luck!
2018-07-31T19:48:18Z daviid: *bind
2018-07-31T19:48:24Z aeth: You could implement type classes in decently portable CL. Not sure about Scheme, you'd probably have to make a SRFI for it.
2018-07-31T19:48:27Z Zipheir: Yeah, I love SRFI-9, but it's not everything
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2018-07-31T19:48:50Z amz31: daviid: that's what I try to do with forward.js
2018-07-31T19:49:02Z amz31: I want to port it to gnome clutter
2018-07-31T19:49:06Z Zipheir: I'm pretty sure someone's implemented type classes for CL, not sure which implementation. Probably SBCL
2018-07-31T19:49:39Z aeth: Zipheir: You could implement it on top of type-based generic functions like this library https://github.com/markcox80/specialization-store/
2018-07-31T19:49:44Z aeth: You'd probably have to modify the library, of course
2018-07-31T19:49:45Z Zipheir: daviid: God that sounds painful
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2018-07-31T19:51:26Z aeth: Zipheir: Actually implementing type classes in an implementation would be much faster, of course
2018-07-31T19:51:51Z amz31: daviid: are you familiar with immediate mode rendering?
2018-07-31T19:52:03Z Zipheir: aeth: My CL is rusty, but that library looks nicely done.
2018-07-31T19:52:30Z daviid: amz31: not that I'm aware of :)
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2018-07-31T19:53:18Z daviid: what's that beast?
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2018-07-31T19:57:33Z amz31: apparantly it's a two step algorithm. The first step is asynchronous (it can do heavy computation) that creates a new version of the "model" aka. data and the second step (or thread?) does draw the screen based on that data
2018-07-31T19:58:24Z amz31: events trigger by clicking a button continuation are the controller, they must transform the "model"
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2018-07-31T20:07:12Z daviid: I knew immediate was somehow a 'lye' :)
2018-07-31T20:07:18Z daviid: joking
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2018-07-31T20:20:13Z amz31: TIL
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2018-07-31T20:25:41Z daviid: aeth: clos based models give you declarative method combination by the way, so you can compose ...
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2018-07-31T20:34:28Z daviid: I recommend (to those interested) to read this https://www.researchgate.net/publication/220422719_CLOS_Integrating_Object-Oriented_and_Functional_Programming
2018-07-31T20:34:29Z rudybot: http://teensy.info/3YvYnV9jAp
2018-07-31T20:34:57Z daviid: rudybot: thanks!
2018-07-31T20:34:58Z rudybot: daviid: i'll check out mu4e thanks
2018-07-31T20:37:18Z daviid: and to entirely rewrite the composition wikipage posted above using clos or a clos friendly scheme ...
2018-07-31T20:37:33Z daviid: :)
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2018-07-31T21:53:17Z Zipheir: Huh, I didn't know Richard Gabriel was behind CLOS
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2018-07-31T22:30:42Z daviid: Zipheir: there quite a lot of the best s/w engineer the plnet has ever had working on what became clos, and it took a long time before xj13 stabilize ...
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2018-07-31T22:36:05Z jcowan_: The analogue of a type class in Scheme is a record full of functions
2018-07-31T22:36:24Z jcowan_: in particular, SRFI 128 comparators are the equivalent of Eq+Ord+Hash type classes
2018-07-31T22:36:49Z jcowan_: s/analogue/dynamic analogue
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2018-07-31T23:08:53Z amz31: who is richard gabriel?
2018-07-31T23:09:08Z qu1j0t3: ex Lucid CEO
2018-07-31T23:09:13Z qu1j0t3: author of Patterns of Software
2018-07-31T23:09:17Z qu1j0t3: all round renaissance man
2018-07-31T23:09:27Z qu1j0t3: Lucid founder*
2018-07-31T23:10:12Z daviid: amz31: a legend in the lisp community
2018-07-31T23:10:36Z daviid: together with kent pitman and many others ... the old days ...
2018-07-31T23:10:51Z amz31: begining of the quote
2018-07-31T23:10:53Z amz31: This sidestepped the principal failure of Lisp machines by, in essence, rewriting the Lisp machine IDE for use on a more cost-effective and less moribund architecture.
2018-07-31T23:10:58Z amz31: end of the quote
2018-07-31T23:11:21Z qu1j0t3: for the book length version of the quote, see Patterns of Software
2018-07-31T23:11:31Z amz31: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_P._Gabriel#Works
2018-07-31T23:11:43Z amz31: oh no you did it again
2018-07-31T23:12:50Z amz31: what a story tho
2018-07-31T23:12:56Z amz31: I need to sleep sorry
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2018-07-31T23:37:32Z Zipheir: jcowan: ty, I need to read SRFI 128
2018-07-31T23:37:59Z jcowan: I'm probably going to write some SRFIs for Monad and Monoid and their subtypes
2018-07-31T23:38:55Z Zipheir: That would be excellent
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