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#scheme 2018-06-03T12:58:55Z damke quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2018-06-03T13:04:19Z damke joined #scheme 2018-06-03T13:04:36Z damke_ quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2018-06-03T13:06:26Z pierpal quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2018-06-03T13:06:51Z pierpal joined #scheme 2018-06-03T13:25:41Z pierpal quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2018-06-03T13:26:27Z remix2000[m]: Hi again! Is there any actively developed scheme-to-javascript compiler? Something like ClojureScript, but for Scheme? 2018-06-03T13:28:02Z klovett quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-06-03T13:28:13Z klovett joined #scheme 2018-06-03T13:29:13Z klovett_ joined #scheme 2018-06-03T13:31:24Z pierpal joined #scheme 2018-06-03T13:31:31Z TCZ: whalesong? 2018-06-03T13:32:42Z klovett quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2018-06-03T13:33:53Z TCZ: ok nvm 2018-06-03T13:34:03Z damke quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2018-06-03T13:34:35Z TCZ quit (Quit: Leaving) 2018-06-03T13:47:51Z pierpal quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2018-06-03T13:48:06Z daviid: remix2000[m]: https://github.com/biwascheme/biwascheme 2018-06-03T13:49:27Z remix2000[m]: daviid (IRC): I found it too, but it says that it's an interpreter and not a compiler. 2018-06-03T13:49:57Z daviid: nt sure it is actively maintained hough but ... guile has an incomplete ecmacript 3.x implementation and I know there has been an attempt (ian price) to compile guile to javascript, that is well n its way, but stalled 9 month ago ... 2018-06-03T13:50:26Z daviid: https://gitlab.com/ijp/guile/commits/compile-to-js-2017 2018-06-03T13:50:57Z pjb quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-06-03T13:50:59Z pierpal joined #scheme 2018-06-03T13:52:13Z daviid: again, forinfo (it needs a 'responsible' maintainer (to quote guile's manual), but here is a nce ontro to it: https://wingolog.org/archives/2009/02/22/ecmascript-for-guile 2018-06-03T13:52:49Z pjb joined #scheme 2018-06-03T13:55:30Z pierpal quit (Client Quit) 2018-06-03T13:55:48Z pierpal joined #scheme 2018-06-03T14:00:18Z klovett joined #scheme 2018-06-03T14:03:47Z klovett_ quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2018-06-03T14:05:54Z klovett quit 2018-06-03T14:07:19Z pierpal quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2018-06-03T14:09:50Z damke joined #scheme 2018-06-03T14:17:27Z damke quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2018-06-03T14:19:22Z damke joined #scheme 2018-06-03T14:21:01Z remix2000[m]: There is RacketScript, but it's experimental and incomplete :( 2018-06-03T14:22:20Z wasamasa: all of those are 2018-06-03T14:31:08Z gwatt: there's also chasm 2018-06-03T14:31:36Z gwatt: sorry, I meant schism (https://github.com/google/schism) which is not scheme->js, but scheme->wasm 2018-06-03T14:32:57Z damke quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2018-06-03T14:33:00Z ft quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-06-03T14:33:15Z wasamasa: "actively developed" apparently doesn't exclude immature :> 2018-06-03T14:33:35Z damke__ joined #scheme 2018-06-03T14:36:56Z gwatt: eholk is pretty sharp. And while schism isn't an official google project I would expect him and others to be able to get it pretty usable. 2018-06-03T14:37:35Z remix2000[m]: gwatt (IRC): schism looks very nice :) However, can WASM be used everywhere, where JS can be used? 2018-06-03T14:37:54Z gwatt: that's the goal 2018-06-03T14:38:04Z TCZ joined #scheme 2018-06-03T14:38:25Z longshi joined #scheme 2018-06-03T14:38:33Z gwatt: it obviously relies upon browsers support, but the big 4 are working together-ish on standards 2018-06-03T14:39:04Z gwatt: https://webassembly.org/ 2018-06-03T14:39:22Z remix2000[m]: gwatt: What about using it outside browser, for example in Node.JS? 2018-06-03T14:39:39Z gwatt: that would require node to support wasm 2018-06-03T14:39:55Z gwatt: which might be a freebie if v8 supports wasm 2018-06-03T14:40:57Z ft joined #scheme 2018-06-03T14:41:12Z damke joined #scheme 2018-06-03T14:42:15Z damke__ quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2018-06-03T14:44:31Z gwatt: I suspect the eventual goal is have javascript implementations target wasm, and have all wasm-hosted implementations be on equal footing, but that's only my guess. 2018-06-03T14:47:53Z damke_ joined #scheme 2018-06-03T14:47:54Z atlask joined #scheme 2018-06-03T14:49:29Z damke quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2018-06-03T14:50:51Z hugh_marera joined #scheme 2018-06-03T14:53:56Z atlask quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2018-06-03T15:00:40Z klovett joined #scheme 2018-06-03T15:01:44Z pjb quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-06-03T15:06:29Z surya joined #scheme 2018-06-03T15:07:18Z damke joined #scheme 2018-06-03T15:07:23Z TCZ quit (Quit: Leaving) 2018-06-03T15:07:34Z damke_ quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2018-06-03T15:09:36Z pierpal joined #scheme 2018-06-03T15:11:02Z surya quit (Client Quit) 2018-06-03T15:11:44Z pierpal quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2018-06-03T15:12:05Z daviid: or to target wasm directly ... https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/guile-devel/2017-10/msg00045.html 2018-06-03T15:18:17Z dbmikus joined #scheme 2018-06-03T15:21:00Z damke quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2018-06-03T15:22:57Z damke joined #scheme 2018-06-03T15:30:27Z atlask joined #scheme 2018-06-03T15:34:22Z smurfrobot quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-06-03T15:36:09Z surya joined #scheme 2018-06-03T15:40:16Z pierpal joined #scheme 2018-06-03T15:43:11Z TCZ joined #scheme 2018-06-03T15:43:44Z damke quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2018-06-03T15:45:36Z acarrico joined #scheme 2018-06-03T15:49:07Z pjb joined #scheme 2018-06-03T15:50:47Z TCZ quit (Quit: Leaving) 2018-06-03T16:01:43Z dbmikus quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2018-06-03T16:15:58Z damke joined #scheme 2018-06-03T16:19:25Z pierpal quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-06-03T16:21:44Z damke_ joined #scheme 2018-06-03T16:23:22Z longshi quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.1) 2018-06-03T16:23:31Z damke quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2018-06-03T16:27:21Z longshi joined #scheme 2018-06-03T16:28:29Z acarrico quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-06-03T16:37:00Z atlask quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2018-06-03T16:40:34Z surya quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-06-03T16:45:52Z amz31 joined #scheme 2018-06-03T16:53:26Z amz31 quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2018-06-03T16:53:51Z surya joined #scheme 2018-06-03T17:03:57Z lambda-11235 joined #scheme 2018-06-03T17:11:35Z atlask joined #scheme 2018-06-03T17:12:41Z atlask quit (Client Quit) 2018-06-03T17:13:57Z atlask joined #scheme 2018-06-03T17:20:21Z damke_ quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2018-06-03T17:29:37Z nivpgir quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-06-03T17:32:07Z nivpgir joined #scheme 2018-06-03T17:35:55Z dbmikus joined #scheme 2018-06-03T17:48:13Z pierpal joined #scheme 2018-06-03T17:59:19Z pierpal quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2018-06-03T18:02:35Z hugh_marera quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2018-06-03T18:03:04Z hugh_marera joined #scheme 2018-06-03T18:12:33Z Negdayen: to add to the scheme->javascript conversation: Gambit can both run under emscripten, or alternatively, can compile code to javascript. The output is a bit bloated, but can theoretically be trimmed down through various means. 2018-06-03T18:15:44Z pierpal joined #scheme 2018-06-03T18:21:49Z pierpal quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2018-06-03T18:24:47Z longshi quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2018-06-03T18:27:23Z nilg joined #scheme 2018-06-03T18:28:49Z daviid quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2018-06-03T18:34:13Z acarrico joined #scheme 2018-06-03T18:40:52Z groovy2shoes quit (Quit: moritura te salutat) 2018-06-03T18:46:38Z pierpal joined #scheme 2018-06-03T18:48:57Z dbmikus quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2018-06-03T18:49:26Z acarrico quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2018-06-03T18:54:15Z alezost joined #scheme 2018-06-03T19:00:16Z jonaslund quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2018-06-03T19:10:44Z light2yellow joined #scheme 2018-06-03T19:14:41Z erkin quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-06-03T19:22:31Z Zipheir: Has anyone written anything about the particular challenges of compiling Scheme to JS? 2018-06-03T19:25:51Z Negdayen: I think I recall seeing something by the author of Bigloo... 2018-06-03T19:35:29Z nilg quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2018-06-03T19:36:11Z acarrico joined #scheme 2018-06-03T19:39:06Z hugh_marera quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2018-06-03T19:41:15Z hugh_marera joined #scheme 2018-06-03T19:43:31Z jcob joined #scheme 2018-06-03T19:45:26Z civodul joined #scheme 2018-06-03T19:46:50Z nivpgir quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-06-03T19:46:57Z niklasl quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-06-03T19:47:42Z jcob quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-06-03T19:47:46Z niklasl joined #scheme 2018-06-03T19:50:07Z ecraven: Riastradh: is there a simple way to ensure that a critical section in mit-scheme is run only by one thread? 2018-06-03T19:50:20Z ecraven: `with-thread-mutex-locked' looks promising, is there something simpler? 2018-06-03T19:52:29Z hugh_marera quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2018-06-03T19:54:29Z Riastradh: ecraven: A mutex is the standard way to do that. 2018-06-03T19:54:59Z ecraven: thanks 2018-06-03T19:55:32Z hugh_marera joined #scheme 2018-06-03T19:57:21Z atlask quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-06-03T20:00:34Z jcowan_: Spock is not actively developed, but compiles Scheme->JS 2018-06-03T20:01:02Z jcowan_: Anyhow, "not actively developed" can mean either "abandoned" or "finished". 2018-06-03T20:01:58Z wasamasa: spock has quite nice sourcecode though 2018-06-03T20:02:12Z wasamasa: if I'd actually need a scheme->js, I'd be inclined to improve its interop to cljs levels 2018-06-03T20:02:37Z ngz joined #scheme 2018-06-03T20:06:10Z hugh_marera quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2018-06-03T20:08:15Z hugh_marera joined #scheme 2018-06-03T20:11:20Z terpri quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-06-03T20:20:13Z fyodost joined #scheme 2018-06-03T20:24:59Z hugh_marera quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2018-06-03T20:25:17Z hugh_marera joined #scheme 2018-06-03T20:30:44Z hugh_marera_ 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no, Microsoft just bought the basket we put all our eggs in!" --99% of hackers on earth this week 2018-06-04T15:15:58Z gwatt: > For $7.5 billion in microsoft stock 2018-06-04T15:16:25Z nisstyre: my decision to move all my private repos to Gitea on my own server ($5 VPS) seems justified now 2018-06-04T15:16:43Z nisstyre: I think I will make github just be a mirror of that now 2018-06-04T15:16:48Z nisstyre: (for public repos) 2018-06-04T15:16:51Z wasamasa: can you configure gitea so that it doesn't have any social features? 2018-06-04T15:17:01Z wasamasa: so it just becomes a pretty git repo viewer? 2018-06-04T15:17:02Z nisstyre: wasamasa: I'm not sure what you mean by social features 2018-06-04T15:17:11Z nisstyre: you mean issues? 2018-06-04T15:17:14Z wasamasa: well, user signup, MRs, that stuff 2018-06-04T15:17:15Z wasamasa: yes 2018-06-04T15:17:21Z nisstyre: I don't see why not 2018-06-04T15:17:28Z nisstyre: you could make it all public and then disable registration 2018-06-04T15:17:47Z wasamasa: I dislike that part about gitlab, I don't want to sign up on some random git's gitlab server just to see the code 2018-06-04T15:17:54Z nisstyre: I dislike Gitlab, period 2018-06-04T15:18:05Z nisstyre: it's bloated and a nightmare to maintain over time 2018-06-04T15:18:10Z wasamasa: agreed 2018-06-04T15:18:13Z nisstyre: upgrading is a huge pain 2018-06-04T15:18:21Z wasamasa: keeping it running is a pain, too :P 2018-06-04T15:18:27Z nisstyre: yeah, it eats up all your memory 2018-06-04T15:18:34Z nisstyre: whereas Gitea is very fast 2018-06-04T15:18:49Z wasamasa: I once had a huge MR comment thread on it that made it shit itself over and over again when anyone viewed it 2018-06-04T15:18:56Z nisstyre: lmao 2018-06-04T15:19:04Z wasamasa: gitlab fixed this by limiting the maximum number of displayed comments in a later release 2018-06-04T15:19:14Z nisstyre: I thought about applying for a job there 2018-06-04T15:19:19Z nisstyre: because clearly they need help 2018-06-04T15:19:27Z nisstyre: but I hate ruby too much 2018-06-04T15:19:32Z qu1j0t3: :) 2018-06-04T15:20:40Z Zipheir: wasamasa: You're right, it would be great if there were a repo hosting service that didn't try to be code-Facebook 2018-06-04T15:21:03Z jcowan_: savannah.nongnu.org 2018-06-04T15:21:15Z wasamasa: don't you need someone to approve each savannah repo manually 2018-06-04T15:21:37Z jcowan_: don't know 2018-06-04T15:21:43Z jcowan_: never used it except as a user 2018-06-04T15:21:50Z jcowan_: my current repos are on bitbucket 2018-06-04T15:22:15Z nisstyre: Atlassian products are pretty janky imo 2018-06-04T15:22:20Z nisstyre: but I guess they work 2018-06-04T15:22:32Z nisstyre: I wonder how they feel about this acquisition 2018-06-04T15:22:46Z Zipheir: Bitbucket is proprietary junk, but at least they still have Mercurial 2018-06-04T15:24:25Z Zipheir: Hmm, for some reason I always assumed savannah was private to GNU-related projects 2018-06-04T15:24:30Z nisstyre: writing a git repo viewer for the web might be a good way to learn more about git 2018-06-04T15:24:41Z wasamasa: hm, I don't see anything related on https://docs.gitea.io/en-us/config-cheat-sheet/ 2018-06-04T15:26:23Z Zipheir: nisstyre: Don't bother, the Git libraries are a mess and there are already 4 billion web-frontends 2018-06-04T15:26:44Z dbmikus joined #scheme 2018-06-04T15:27:06Z nisstyre: yeah that's true 2018-06-04T15:28:06Z wasamasa: according to https://github.com/go-gitea/gitea/blob/master/docs/content/page/index.en-us.md you can disable issues, pull requests, wiki, etc. 2018-06-04T15:28:16Z wasamasa: there just doesn't seem to be a setting to disable them by default 2018-06-04T15:30:18Z Zipheir: Well, that's cool. 2018-06-04T15:35:16Z Zipheir: It's unfortunate that they only provide git repos, but I suppose it's the coin of the realm these days. 2018-06-04T15:38:09Z terrorjack quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-06-04T15:38:22Z cortisol joined #scheme 2018-06-04T15:38:25Z terrorjack joined #scheme 2018-06-04T15:38:27Z wasamasa: feel free to use fossil 2018-06-04T15:41:13Z cortisol quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2018-06-04T15:42:37Z Zipheir: I haven't tried fossil. What nice aspects does it have? 2018-06-04T15:46:03Z gnomon: Zipheir, the technote features are very nice; the built-in wiki is good, the support for nominating a repo subdirectory as containing the documentation to be exposed by the wiki interface is even better; it has a nice, comprehensible CLI and leverages the browser for its GUI operations, which are not considered to be second-class; it's conceptually small enough to fit in your whole mind. 2018-06-04T15:46:22Z gnomon: Zipheir, Fossil is hardly perfect, but there is a lot about it to like. 2018-06-04T15:47:24Z Zipheir: gnomon: Thanks, that was quite informative. I'll check it out. 2018-06-04T15:47:33Z gnomon: Some folks rave about the fact that it uses a sqlite database as its storage layer and packages a single binary as its executable, but honestly I haven't found those factors to actually matter in practice. Like, they're nice, but they don't actually add much, at least to me. 2018-06-04T15:47:38Z gnomon: Zipheir, you're welcome! 2018-06-04T15:49:06Z Zipheir: Well, sqlite seems like the Right Thing. Or, at least, a Better Thing than re-inventing the wheel à la Git... 2018-06-04T15:56:18Z klovett quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-06-04T15:56:29Z klovett joined #scheme 2018-06-04T15:59:57Z lritter quit (Quit: Leaving) 2018-06-04T16:03:25Z Riastradh: I found fossil a lot more likeable in principle than in practice. 2018-06-04T16:04:08Z damke_ joined #scheme 2018-06-04T16:05:22Z amz31: +1 2018-06-04T16:09:47Z jcowan_: Zipheir: I only use hg on bitbucket 2018-06-04T16:10:04Z jcowan_: hg is a DVCS that I can understand, unlike git 2018-06-04T16:10:36Z jcowan_: though I still miss the best feature of svn, namely that tags and branches are just conventional directories rather than a separate part of the data model. 2018-06-04T16:15:00Z Zipheir: jcowan_: Indeed. 2018-06-04T16:16:06Z Zipheir: hg is reasonable. The CLI tools are especially well thought-out. 2018-06-04T16:16:22Z jcowan_: Yes. 2018-06-04T16:17:08Z jcowan_: The learning curve from svn or similar systems is trivial: it separates commit and checkout, which are local, from push and pull, which are non-local. 2018-06-04T16:18:55Z Zipheir: WRT understanding git, what's really mind-boggling is not the poor abstraction, but the pervasive attitude of 'this isn't actually about version control' which leads git people to rewrite... everything. 2018-06-04T16:19:33Z jcowan_: squashing is particularly awful 2018-06-04T16:21:19Z Zipheir: Awful indeed. I stopped contributing to a project after the maintainer squashed 150+ commits--virtually a complete rewrite of the codebase. 2018-06-04T16:21:45Z amz31 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-06-04T16:22:36Z cortisol joined #scheme 2018-06-04T16:23:50Z pjb joined #scheme 2018-06-04T16:31:57Z alezost joined #scheme 2018-06-04T16:34:40Z jonaslund joined #scheme 2018-06-04T16:35:04Z mazeto quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-06-04T16:41:09Z civodul quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 26.1)) 2018-06-04T16:42:22Z _leb joined #scheme 2018-06-04T16:43:22Z jonaslund quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-06-04T16:44:28Z gnomon: Riastradh, oh? How did it let you down in practice? (I'm much more keen to understand that than I am to try to change your mind; in fact I promise I won't attempt the latter.) 2018-06-04T16:45:20Z jcowan_ is now known as jcowan 2018-06-04T16:49:57Z aeth: hg had terrible performance the few times I had to use it back when hg vs. git was still a thing in the pre-Github days. 2018-06-04T16:50:34Z aeth: wasamasa: Gitlab needs "sign on with Gitlab". Ironically, you can sign it with Github to Gitlab instances. 2018-06-04T16:50:39Z aeth: s/sign it/sign in/ 2018-06-04T16:51:12Z aeth: wasamasa: There's also https://gitlab.com/gitlab-org/gitlab-ee/issues/4517 2018-06-04T16:53:30Z jcowan: aeth: Yes, it's not instantaneous, but idk. 2018-06-04T16:53:41Z jcowan: I don't deal with kernel-sized projects 2018-06-04T16:55:30Z damke_ quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2018-06-04T17:00:07Z jcob` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-06-04T17:00:22Z jcob` joined #scheme 2018-06-04T17:00:46Z jcob` quit (Client Quit) 2018-06-04T17:01:03Z jcob joined #scheme 2018-06-04T17:02:56Z _leb quit 2018-06-04T17:03:34Z aeth: I wonder if Hg can be run in Pypy and if it makes it significantly faster. 2018-06-04T17:05:35Z jcowan: there is a lot of C in hg 2018-06-04T17:05:47Z jcowan: also short running times means there isn't much for a JIT to do 2018-06-04T17:10:09Z erkin joined #scheme 2018-06-04T17:10:53Z jcowan: There is a supposedly fast client called cHg; it looks like it spawns a background Python and then talks to that, thus saving CPython startup time. 2018-06-04T17:13:22Z klovett quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-06-04T17:13:50Z klovett joined #scheme 2018-06-04T17:17:36Z leppie joined #scheme 2018-06-04T17:27:21Z alezost quit (Quit: I live in GuixSD and Emacs ) 2018-06-04T17:37:15Z afterK joined #scheme 2018-06-04T17:37:15Z afterK quit (Changing host) 2018-06-04T17:37:15Z afterK joined #scheme 2018-06-04T17:39:40Z klovett quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-06-04T17:39:52Z klovett joined #scheme 2018-06-04T17:41:25Z afterK quit (Client Quit) 2018-06-04T17:45:26Z jonaslund joined #scheme 2018-06-04T17:46:02Z atlask joined #scheme 2018-06-04T17:49:19Z PinealGlandOptic quit (Quit: leaving) 2018-06-04T17:49:28Z Zipheir: Fossil is nice, thanks, wasamasa & gnomon. I'm still trying to find a fossil history-inspection command with the power of hg/git log, but it's pretty cool otherwise. 2018-06-04T18:00:28Z atlask quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.1) 2018-06-04T18:03:01Z vicenteH quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-06-04T18:03:15Z dbmikus quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-06-04T18:07:43Z longshi joined #scheme 2018-06-04T18:08:13Z klovett_ joined #scheme 2018-06-04T18:08:17Z dbmikus joined #scheme 2018-06-04T18:11:14Z klovett quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-06-04T18:20:30Z pierpal quit (Quit: Poof) 2018-06-04T18:20:54Z pierpal joined #scheme 2018-06-04T18:25:19Z pierpal quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2018-06-04T18:26:13Z klovett joined #scheme 2018-06-04T18:26:59Z Labu joined #scheme 2018-06-04T18:28:49Z pierpal joined #scheme 2018-06-04T18:29:32Z klovett_ quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-06-04T18:36:25Z ecraven: does anyone know of a case where global subsumption rules for predicates do not work? i.e. where one generic function wants a *different* ordering than another generic function? 2018-06-04T18:41:54Z Riastradh: gnomon: Dunno, just found the user interface to be more baffling and infuriating than git's. E.g., how do I get the complete list of changes to a file with patches, spelled `git log -p ./foo.c' in git? drh rejected my patch to make it work with a nonwritable home directory, because it's inappropriate for programs to automatically deposit crap there. 2018-06-04T18:43:07Z Riastradh: Something like `finfo' which is unrelated to `info', except it's limited to a certain number, and it doesn't show the patches. 2018-06-04T18:43:30Z lritter joined #scheme 2018-06-04T18:47:16Z kjak_ is now known as kjak 2018-06-04T19:09:25Z 17WABHCF5 joined #scheme 2018-06-04T19:10:03Z gnomon: Riastradh, hmmm 2018-06-04T19:11:21Z 17WABHCF5 quit (Client Quit) 2018-06-04T19:11:39Z gnomon: I see what you mean. 2018-06-04T19:11:42Z _leb joined #scheme 2018-06-04T19:13:31Z longshi quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.1) 2018-06-04T19:19:31Z jonaslund quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-06-04T19:38:05Z civodul joined #scheme 2018-06-04T19:41:41Z smurfrobot joined #scheme 2018-06-04T19:47:49Z _leb quit 2018-06-04T19:56:23Z light2yellow quit (Quit: light2yellow) 2018-06-04T19:58:27Z smurfrobot quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-06-04T19:59:42Z vicenteH joined #scheme 2018-06-04T20:20:43Z pierpal quit (Quit: Poof) 2018-06-04T20:21:00Z pierpal joined #scheme 2018-06-04T20:35:24Z jcob quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-06-04T20:37:48Z jonaslund joined #scheme 2018-06-04T20:40:06Z jcowan_ joined #scheme 2018-06-04T20:42:35Z _leb joined #scheme 2018-06-04T20:42:42Z jcowan quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-06-04T20:43:13Z _leb quit (Client Quit) 2018-06-04T20:44:25Z jcob joined #scheme 2018-06-04T20:57:44Z cortisol quit 2018-06-04T20:59:40Z erkin quit (Quit: Ouch! 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How that continuous stream is split up is what people are indicating when they indicate what the tokens are. 2018-06-05T01:45:37Z raoul: mrm: Thanks! Yes, I understand 'lexing' should end up in something like 'LPAREN SYMBOL RPAREN' 2018-06-05T01:45:53Z mrm: Then the grammar is conceived of as applying to a sequence of those tokens rather than said input. 'delimiter' here is a gramatical construct. 2018-06-05T01:46:34Z mrm: Oh, yea. So it's just an abuse of notation that conflates ( with both the string to be lexxed and the LPAREN token. 2018-06-05T01:48:01Z raoul: mrm: Ok, thanks. As I understand it though, the eBNF starting on page 62 of the standard is to be understood as a tree with the 'token' category as the topmost category, isn't it? 2018-06-05T01:48:13Z mrm: All that is a bit more fancy than you need, but that's why it sort of makes sense to refer to it both as a token and a delimiter. 2018-06-05T01:50:24Z raoul: In this document: https://bitbucket.org/cowan/r7rs/raw/4c27517de187142ad2cf4bcd8cb9199ae1e48c09/rnrs/r7rs.pdf 2018-06-05T01:50:27Z mrm: Possibly, but it often makes more sense to think of the input having been fully lexed first, and the grammar as something that operates on sequences of tokens rather than strings. 2018-06-05T01:53:14Z mrm: For one thing, you'll often see the tokens presented as some sort of regex. 2018-06-05T01:54:27Z raoul: mrm: Yes, I am actually writing a lexer, that is why I am trying to understand that 2018-06-05T01:55:37Z raoul: mrm: And my understanding was that the eBNF was to be understood as a hierarchy of token categories, with leafs using regex. 2018-06-05T01:55:40Z mrm: Yea, tbh, all of the grammar stuff in scheme seems more for show really. All you really need is a lexer, parsing is pretty trivial. 2018-06-05T01:55:46Z robotoad quit (Quit: robotoad) 2018-06-05T01:59:28Z raoul: mrm: Ok, thanks so much! I hope I can manage it from here on. 2018-06-05T02:04:48Z johnvonneumann_ joined #scheme 2018-06-05T02:05:25Z Guest7767 quit (Write error: Connection reset by peer) 2018-06-05T02:05:25Z dmiles quit (Write error: Connection reset by peer) 2018-06-05T02:06:38Z abbe_ joined #scheme 2018-06-05T02:07:45Z abbe quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2018-06-05T02:08:07Z pflanze quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2018-06-05T02:09:28Z damke_ joined #scheme 2018-06-05T02:12:17Z smurfrobot joined #scheme 2018-06-05T02:15:10Z robotoad joined #scheme 2018-06-05T02:17:09Z smurfrobot quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-06-05T02:18:38Z smurfrobot joined #scheme 2018-06-05T02:18:52Z pflanze joined #scheme 2018-06-05T02:22:57Z fyodost quit (Quit: Leaving) 2018-06-05T02:24:20Z pierpal joined #scheme 2018-06-05T02:26:31Z abbe_ is now known as abbe 2018-06-05T02:28:56Z pierpal quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2018-06-05T02:32:27Z smurfrobot quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-06-05T02:42:08Z epony joined #scheme 2018-06-05T02:42:22Z smurfrobot joined #scheme 2018-06-05T02:43:36Z longshi quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.1) 2018-06-05T02:45:22Z pierpal joined #scheme 2018-06-05T02:46:12Z longshi joined #scheme 2018-06-05T02:47:10Z smurfrobot quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-06-05T02:47:32Z epony quit (Quit: QUIT) 2018-06-05T02:54:42Z smurfrobot joined #scheme 2018-06-05T02:55:27Z smurfrobot quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-06-05T03:00:55Z smurfrobot joined #scheme 2018-06-05T03:05:21Z smurfrob_ joined #scheme 2018-06-05T03:06:36Z smurfrob_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-06-05T03:07:57Z longshi quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.1) 2018-06-05T03:08:27Z Autolycus joined #scheme 2018-06-05T03:09:27Z smurfrobot quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-06-05T03:19:30Z smurfrobot joined #scheme 2018-06-05T03:29:48Z smurfrobot quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-06-05T03:31:04Z damke joined #scheme 2018-06-05T03:33:04Z damke_ quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2018-06-05T03:36:38Z pierpa quit (Quit: Page closed) 2018-06-05T03:37:29Z smurfrobot joined #scheme 2018-06-05T03:37:46Z dtornabene quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-06-05T03:38:45Z smurfrobot quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-06-05T03:42:33Z smurfrobot joined #scheme 2018-06-05T03:42:53Z smurfrobot quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-06-05T03:43:07Z smurfrobot joined #scheme 2018-06-05T03:46:57Z pierpal quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-06-05T03:51:21Z pierpal joined #scheme 2018-06-05T03:51:58Z damke_ joined #scheme 2018-06-05T03:52:26Z epony joined #scheme 2018-06-05T03:52:30Z epony quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-06-05T03:52:48Z epony joined #scheme 2018-06-05T03:53:44Z damke quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2018-06-05T03:54:28Z smurfrobot quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-06-05T03:59:08Z pierpal quit (Quit: Poof) 2018-06-05T03:59:26Z pierpal joined #scheme 2018-06-05T04:05:37Z damke_ quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2018-06-05T04:43:29Z random9899 quit (Quit: Leaving) 2018-06-05T04:44:21Z raoul quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.1) 2018-06-05T05:17:53Z Autolycus quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2018-06-05T05:30:27Z jcob quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-06-05T05:40:27Z damke_ joined #scheme 2018-06-05T05:43:53Z Labu quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.0.1) 2018-06-05T05:44:47Z jonaslund quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2018-06-05T05:48:57Z nivpgir joined #scheme 2018-06-05T05:51:52Z robotoad quit (Quit: robotoad) 2018-06-05T05:58:59Z X-Scale: Imagine you have a list of booleans. You want to and them all, but (apply and '(#f #t #t)) will give me an error, given and is not a procedure. How would you solve this ? I'm using fold with pred defined as (lambda (a b) (and a b)), but was wondering it there was a shorter way of expressing it. 2018-06-05T06:00:57Z lainon joined #scheme 2018-06-05T06:02:33Z damke joined #scheme 2018-06-05T06:03:56Z damke_ quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2018-06-05T06:05:04Z lambda-11235 quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.1) 2018-06-05T06:08:26Z Zipheir: X-Scale: SRFI-1 has every: (every (lambda (b) b) '(#t #f ...)) 2018-06-05T06:09:47Z Zipheir: X-Scale: Which isn't any more elegant than fold (lambda (a b) (and a b)) 2018-06-05T06:10:28Z X-Scale: Zipheir: Thank you. 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and every have the inconvenient of walking the whole list. (member #f bools) would stop walking the list as soon as a #f is found. 2018-06-05T16:59:39Z smurfrobot quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-06-05T17:01:36Z pjb: X-Scale: (define (some-true? bools) (member #t bools)) (define (some-false? bools) (member #f bools)) (define (all-true? bools) (not (some-false? bools))) (define (all-false? bools) (not (some-true? bools))) 2018-06-05T17:01:52Z smurfrobot joined #scheme 2018-06-05T17:02:19Z vicenteH joined #scheme 2018-06-05T17:05:40Z erkin joined #scheme 2018-06-05T17:07:48Z fyodost joined #scheme 2018-06-05T17:08:31Z smurfrobot quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-06-05T17:15:08Z alezost quit (Quit: I live in GuixSD and Emacs ) 2018-06-05T17:23:18Z jcowan joined #scheme 2018-06-05T17:24:08Z smurfrobot joined #scheme 2018-06-05T17:25:33Z smurfrob_ joined #scheme 2018-06-05T17:28:09Z smurfrobot quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2018-06-05T17:33:22Z smurfrob_ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-06-05T17:42:30Z light2yellow quit (Quit: light2yellow) 2018-06-05T17:44:13Z klovett joined #scheme 2018-06-05T18:34:58Z jonaslund quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-06-05T18:38:59Z siiky quit (Quit: Leaving) 2018-06-05T18:54:40Z jonaslund joined #scheme 2018-06-05T19:07:45Z pflanze: I'm looking for a quality HTTP server implementation in Scheme that is reasonably self-contained (since I will need to adapt/port it). It should support keep-alive as at least some IE versions have problems without. Suggestions? 2018-06-05T19:07:47Z gnomon_ joined #scheme 2018-06-05T19:07:56Z gnomon_ quit (Client Quit) 2018-06-05T19:09:01Z pflanze: Also/alternatively interested in suggestions about good APIs used in this area (for HTTP, URLs, cookies, URL matching, ..) 2018-06-05T19:26:04Z jcob quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-06-05T19:27:17Z gwatt: Do you care which csheme 2018-06-05T19:31:19Z pierpal quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2018-06-05T19:31:35Z pierpal joined #scheme 2018-06-05T19:39:41Z pierpal quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2018-06-05T19:39:53Z pierpal joined #scheme 2018-06-05T19:53:10Z dbmikus quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-06-05T19:53:20Z dbmikus_ joined #scheme 2018-06-05T19:56:18Z smurfrobot joined #scheme 2018-06-05T20:04:44Z ngz joined #scheme 2018-06-05T20:13:33Z nivpgir quit (Quit: http://quassel-irc.org - Chat comfortably. Anywhere.) 2018-06-05T20:18:18Z nivpgir joined #scheme 2018-06-05T20:19:02Z smurfrobot quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-06-05T20:20:26Z pflanze: gwatt, no 2018-06-05T20:25:23Z fraya quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-06-05T20:28:14Z erkin quit (Quit: Ouch! 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I am using mit-scheme in ubuntu. 2018-06-07T17:04:18Z ecraven: joel135: mit-scheme doesn't call it list-sort, just sort 2018-06-07T17:04:58Z joel135: ok 2018-06-07T17:05:21Z Zipheir: I think Byrd's minikanren code is Chez-specific? 2018-06-07T17:05:38Z ecraven: it should be portable, but you might have to know a bit about mit scheme to achieve that 2018-06-07T17:06:16Z joel135: I am not committed to any scheme implementation. 2018-06-07T17:06:21Z civodul quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-06-07T17:07:38Z ecraven: minikanren has been ported to a few, racket should work too, and probably chicken and guile 2018-06-07T17:08:18Z terpri quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2018-06-07T17:10:22Z damke joined #scheme 2018-06-07T17:11:12Z joel135: chez seems nice 2018-06-07T17:11:34Z Zipheir: CHICKEN's kanren egg is awesome. 2018-06-07T17:13:43Z damke quit (Client Quit) 2018-06-07T17:15:54Z Zipheir: It's really cool how easily that language can be embedded in your favorite Scheme/other functional-flavored language. That gives a lot of credence to the Reasoned Schemer's argument that it's a useful and natural extension. 2018-06-07T17:26:27Z Khisanth quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-06-07T17:26:52Z ddp quit (Quit: ddp) 2018-06-07T17:30:56Z wigust- joined #scheme 2018-06-07T17:32:45Z wigust quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-06-07T17:37:13Z niklasl quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-06-07T17:38:17Z niklasl joined #scheme 2018-06-07T17:38:45Z lambda-11235 joined #scheme 2018-06-07T17:40:05Z Khisanth joined #scheme 2018-06-07T17:41:21Z fibration quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-06-07T17:42:37Z jcob joined #scheme 2018-06-07T17:46:48Z klovett quit 2018-06-07T17:47:36Z joel135: In emacs, I want to indent calls to `pmatch` less because it is a special form. 2018-06-07T17:48:33Z joel135: So I added `(put 'pmatch 'lisp-indent-function 2)` to `~/.emacs` but maybe I misunderstood how to do it. 2018-06-07T17:48:51Z wasamasa: it's scheme-indent-function 2018-06-07T17:49:03Z joel135: oh that makes sense ;) 2018-06-07T17:50:32Z joel135: ok `(put 'pmatch 'scheme-indent-function 1)` is what i needed 2018-06-07T17:58:17Z joel135: `C-x C-e` is so smooth 2018-06-07T17:59:22Z Zipheir: Meh, it's a row-hurdler in qwerty. :) 2018-06-07T18:14:49Z nivpgir quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-06-07T18:18:03Z pjb: joel135: what (put 'pmatch 'lisp-indent-function 2) means is that when indenting the body of pmatch, it will keep the first 2 forms indented more. 2018-06-07T18:19:30Z joel135: so maybe i want 0? 2018-06-07T18:19:38Z alezost joined #scheme 2018-06-07T18:20:21Z joel135: yes 2018-06-07T18:21:07Z pjb: What I mean is that you will get something like: https://imagebin.ca/v/44Uje95kVIHK 2018-06-07T18:21:31Z pjb: the pmatch form is still aligned like the other forms before and after it. 2018-06-07T18:22:23Z joel135: ok 2018-06-07T18:22:38Z nivpgir joined #scheme 2018-06-07T18:24:14Z klovett joined #scheme 2018-06-07T18:34:12Z badkins joined #scheme 2018-06-07T18:41:48Z ddp joined #scheme 2018-06-07T18:44:22Z light2yellow joined #scheme 2018-06-07T18:50:04Z joel135: so i do want 1 2018-06-07T18:51:31Z smazga quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2018-06-07T18:56:33Z badkins quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2018-06-07T18:58:46Z nivpgir quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-06-07T19:01:27Z Khisanth quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-06-07T19:03:40Z alezost quit (Quit: I live in GuixSD and Emacs ) 2018-06-07T19:04:38Z terpri joined #scheme 2018-06-07T19:15:16Z cortisol joined #scheme 2018-06-07T19:15:58Z Fare quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-06-07T19:16:04Z Khisanth joined #scheme 2018-06-07T19:22:59Z Fare joined #scheme 2018-06-07T19:25:58Z civodul joined #scheme 2018-06-07T19:41:27Z smurfrobot joined #scheme 2018-06-07T19:45:58Z smurfrobot quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-06-07T19:46:23Z TCZ joined #scheme 2018-06-07T19:46:42Z nivpgir joined #scheme 2018-06-07T19:54:33Z pierpal quit (Quit: Poof) 2018-06-07T19:54:52Z pierpal joined #scheme 2018-06-07T20:12:56Z erkin joined #scheme 2018-06-07T20:15:13Z smazga joined #scheme 2018-06-07T20:26:10Z Fare quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-06-07T20:36:01Z pierpa joined #scheme 2018-06-07T20:41:14Z surya quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2018-06-07T20:44:08Z TCZ quit (Quit: Leaving) 2018-06-07T20:59:32Z s4vo joined #scheme 2018-06-07T21:05:25Z bigfondue quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2018-06-07T21:08:53Z bigfondue joined #scheme 2018-06-07T21:11:58Z Fare joined #scheme 2018-06-07T21:15:12Z bigfondue quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2018-06-07T21:17:13Z cortisol quit 2018-06-07T21:20:41Z smazga quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-06-07T21:21:49Z bigfondue joined #scheme 2018-06-07T21:29:00Z civodul quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 26.1)) 2018-06-07T21:39:14Z longshi joined #scheme 2018-06-07T21:41:52Z lainon joined #scheme 2018-06-07T21:43:35Z epony quit (Quit: QUIT) 2018-06-07T21:43:39Z erkin quit (Quit: Ouch! 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I am stuck on the quasiquotation part of the standard, because I don't understand how to pass the eBNF through the lexer. 2018-06-08T06:06:16Z raoul1: Can someone please give me a hand? 2018-06-08T06:06:32Z raoul1: I found this: https://stackoverflow.com/questions/6332614/an-antlr-grammar-for-schemes-quasiquotations 2018-06-08T06:06:45Z raoul1: which uses ANTLR with variables 2018-06-08T06:07:04Z raoul1: But I am not using ANTLR 2018-06-08T06:07:20Z raoul1: Should I do that with macros? 2018-06-08T06:10:25Z vicenteH quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2018-06-08T06:10:29Z ecraven: what is your exact question? 2018-06-08T06:10:40Z vicenteH joined #scheme 2018-06-08T06:11:14Z raoul1: ecraven: The eBNF is context-sensitive and defines an inductive rule ("D") 2018-06-08T06:11:45Z ecraven: what are you trying to parse? quasiquote is just like quote 2018-06-08T06:11:45Z raoul1: ecraven: how am I supposed to lex that at compile time? 2018-06-08T06:12:04Z smurfrobot joined #scheme 2018-06-08T06:12:05Z ecraven: if you can read expressions, you can read quasiquotations 2018-06-08T06:12:39Z smurfrobot quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-06-08T06:12:41Z ecraven: `foo -> (quasiquote foo) 2018-06-08T06:12:46Z ecraven: just like 'foo -> (quote foo) 2018-06-08T06:13:12Z smurfrobot joined #scheme 2018-06-08T06:13:32Z raoul1: ecraven: This bit is what I do not unserstand: http://www.r6rs.org/final/html/r6rs/r6rs-Z-H-14.html#node_sec_11.17 2018-06-08T06:14:02Z ecraven: you mean not parsing but actually expanding a quasiquote? 2018-06-08T06:14:08Z raoul1: If I try to lex it, how am I to tell to the lexer what is the "D" value? 2018-06-08T06:14:21Z ecraven: sorry, meeting, I'll be back later, but there's plenty of people here who know better than me! just wait around for a bit 2018-06-08T06:14:21Z raoul1: That is my problem 2018-06-08T06:15:12Z raoul1: Ok thanks anyways! 2018-06-08T06:15:55Z smurfrobot quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-06-08T06:33:01Z klovett quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-06-08T06:33:10Z klovett joined #scheme 2018-06-08T06:33:44Z klovett_ joined #scheme 2018-06-08T06:35:47Z raoul1: Ok, I think I just understood. I just needed a bit of "mind massaging" from someone else :-) 2018-06-08T06:38:09Z klovett quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-06-08T06:39:07Z lambda-11235 quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.1) 2018-06-08T06:44:35Z jonaslund joined #scheme 2018-06-08T06:53:03Z smurfrobot joined #scheme 2018-06-08T07:00:27Z klovett_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-06-08T07:00:56Z klovett joined #scheme 2018-06-08T07:02:55Z smurfrobot quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-06-08T07:15:38Z terpri quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2018-06-08T07:15:44Z nckx quit (Quit: Updating my GNU GuixSD server — gnu.org/s/guix) 2018-06-08T07:17:47Z civodul joined #scheme 2018-06-08T07:17:58Z smurfrobot joined #scheme 2018-06-08T07:18:21Z nckx joined #scheme 2018-06-08T07:21:33Z smurfrobot quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-06-08T07:25:49Z smurfrobot joined #scheme 2018-06-08T07:30:56Z smurfrobot quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-06-08T07:35:00Z klovett quit (Remote host closed the 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All you need is a lexer. 2018-06-08T21:51:41Z jcowan joined #scheme 2018-06-08T21:53:49Z pierpal joined #scheme 2018-06-08T21:54:13Z mrm: Start by defining a next-token function that consumes some amount of the input stream equivalent to the next token, i.e. an identifier, a literal, or any of the symbols ' () [] {} . , ` @ etc 2018-06-08T21:55:51Z mrm: Then recursively define a next-expr function that repeatedly calls next-token and itself to build up an sexpr. 2018-06-08T21:56:58Z mrm: There are a couple other complications with comments and special reader things in scheme, but you shouldn't worry about them yet. 2018-06-08T21:59:04Z pierpa joined #scheme 2018-06-08T22:03:16Z lainon joined #scheme 2018-06-08T22:08:48Z civodul quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 26.1)) 2018-06-08T22:13:37Z mrm: Well, read-expr and read-token might be more idiomatic. 2018-06-08T22:15:59Z mrm: Anyways, handling quasiquote would just be something like (define (read-expr port) (case (read-token port) ... 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2018-06-09T14:55:15Z ArneBab quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2018-06-09T14:56:00Z sethalves quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2018-06-09T14:56:31Z ArneBab joined #scheme 2018-06-09T14:56:31Z ArneBab quit (Changing host) 2018-06-09T14:56:31Z ArneBab joined #scheme 2018-06-09T15:14:09Z acarrico quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-06-09T15:14:18Z mazeto joined #scheme 2018-06-09T15:15:48Z acarrico joined #scheme 2018-06-09T15:25:24Z donalsd joined #scheme 2018-06-09T15:25:53Z acarrico quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2018-06-09T15:26:55Z donalsd: Hi! I am trying to load files from scheme, and it seems like the load command is always relative to the present directory I am calling the interpreter from, is there a way that I can load it in an absolute path or set a root path or something? 2018-06-09T15:36:47Z lritter joined #scheme 2018-06-09T15:45:05Z gwatt: donalsd: you should be able to specify an absolute path 2018-06-09T15:46:00Z donalsd: gwatt: Yes, I can do that, but is it possible to set a root so that I can specify the path relative to the root? 2018-06-09T15:46:30Z gwatt: depends on the scheme 2018-06-09T15:46:30Z donalsd: For example: I can do (load "~/Code/sicp/lib/somefile.scm") 2018-06-09T15:46:54Z donalsd: But if I am going to change my computer, which doesn't have the same directory structure before sicp, that's not going to work. 2018-06-09T15:47:20Z donalsd: So, it would be more convenient to have a root and load it with relative to the root. 2018-06-09T15:47:38Z donalsd: gwatt: I am using mit-scheme, is there an option to do that? 2018-06-09T15:50:15Z gwatt: dunno 2018-06-09T15:53:20Z gwatt: looks like there's an MITSCHEME_LIBRARY_PATH environment variable 2018-06-09T15:53:25Z smurfrobot quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-06-09T15:56:26Z donalsd: gwatt: Uhh, do I set that up in my bash config? 2018-06-09T15:56:40Z gwatt: most likely 2018-06-09T15:56:47Z hugh_marera joined #scheme 2018-06-09T16:06:53Z jim quit (Quit: Leaving) 2018-06-09T16:14:49Z pie_ joined #scheme 2018-06-09T16:18:02Z alezost quit (Quit: I live in GuixSD and Emacs ) 2018-06-09T16:26:58Z erkin joined #scheme 2018-06-09T16:31:13Z smurfrobot joined #scheme 2018-06-09T16:36:20Z smurfrobot quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2018-06-09T16:41:10Z BitPuffin quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-06-09T16:44:24Z pierpal quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2018-06-09T16:47:24Z jim joined #scheme 2018-06-09T16:56:50Z Khisanth quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-06-09T17:00:37Z atlask quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 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I am confused about the interpretation of the question. 2018-06-11T08:17:36Z robotoad joined #scheme 2018-06-11T08:20:09Z jonaslund quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-06-11T08:21:05Z wasamasa: johndoe231: don't ask to ask or you'll never ever get an answer 2018-06-11T08:21:21Z robotoad quit (Client Quit) 2018-06-11T08:23:08Z robotoad joined #scheme 2018-06-11T08:24:12Z johndoe231: Uh, okay. SICP exercise 2.40 asks for a procedure to find all ordered triples of distinct positive integers, does that mean I have to follow the unique-pairs approach in the previous exercise where 1 <= j < i <= n? 2018-06-11T08:24:40Z johndoe231: Or can i, j, k be independent and unique integers in each triple? 2018-06-11T08:26:08Z wasamasa: ITYM exercise 2.41 2018-06-11T08:27:25Z johndoe231: For example: If I have an ordered triple implementation analogous to unique-pair, it would go something like ((4 3 2), (4 3 1), (3 2 1)...), but if they are independent, it could be ((2 3 4), (1 2 3)) etc as well. 2018-06-11T08:27:34Z johndoe231: wasamasa: Yes, thanks for correcting me. :D 2018-06-11T08:28:58Z wasamasa: the order in a set doesn't matter 2018-06-11T08:29:12Z johndoe231: On the internet people seem to be following the unique pairs approach, I just can't figure out why. I need someone to shed some light on me, and tbh, I am not very good with math or mathematical definitions- so I could have misunderstood the term "ordered triples" 2018-06-11T08:29:13Z wasamasa: which is why I reused the algorithm in unique-pairs to implement unique-triples 2018-06-11T08:30:05Z wasamasa: remember that ordering only means the same relation between two consecutive numbers 2018-06-11T08:30:12Z wasamasa: so (1 2 3) and (3 2 1) are both ordered 2018-06-11T08:30:55Z johndoe231: wasamasa: But if I use unique-pairs for that, I will never get a (1 2 3) in the set, and if I enumerate from 1 to n for all the i, j, and k values, I will get (3 2 1), (2 1 3) and (1 2 3). 2018-06-11T08:31:27Z wasamasa: that doesn't mean the approach is wrong 2018-06-11T08:32:19Z wasamasa: it just means that you haven't spent enough time on making it work for you 2018-06-11T08:32:53Z wasamasa: a valid solution for (unique-triples 5) would be ((3 2 1) (4 2 1) (4 3 1) (4 3 2) (5 2 1) (5 3 1) (5 3 2) (5 4 1) (5 4 2) (5 4 3)) 2018-06-11T08:35:05Z johndoe231: wasamasa: As I can see here,unique triples gives me me each triple with a different combination of numbers. That was my question, are we supposed to have "unique-triples" or just all the combination of triples in the exercise? 2018-06-11T08:36:02Z wasamasa: what would the difference be? 2018-06-11T08:36:39Z johndoe231: Are (3 2 1) and (1 2 3) not different in this case? 2018-06-11T08:36:55Z wasamasa: it's an ordered triple in any case 2018-06-11T08:38:02Z johndoe231: wasamasa: Yes, but are they the same? and can one of them be ignored? 2018-06-11T08:38:10Z wasamasa: they denote the same three numbers 2018-06-11T08:38:48Z wasamasa: ((3 2 1) (1 2 3)) wouldn't be an unique set of triples 2018-06-11T08:39:07Z johndoe231: The question didn't mention unique. 2018-06-11T08:39:12Z robotoad quit (Quit: robotoad) 2018-06-11T08:40:09Z wasamasa: ponder a bit how you're supposed to find all triples if you allow arbitrary duplicates 2018-06-11T08:40:42Z johndoe231: It said "all ordered triples of distinct positive integers i, j, k"- so I assumed that they can be something like ((1 2 3), (2, 3 4) and not (1 1 3). 2018-06-11T08:40:42Z lainon quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-06-11T08:41:08Z wasamasa: sure, they can also be ((3 2 1) (4 3 2)) 2018-06-11T08:42:22Z johndoe231: Uhh, I guess my interpretation was wrong then. 2018-06-11T08:42:49Z skapata joined #scheme 2018-06-11T09:04:40Z jao joined #scheme 2018-06-11T09:06:00Z thevishy joined #scheme 2018-06-11T09:13:43Z nullcone quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2018-06-11T09:24:11Z johndoe231 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2018-06-11T09:26:02Z erkin joined #scheme 2018-06-11T09:49:32Z johndoe231 joined #scheme 2018-06-11T09:49:32Z johndoe231 quit (Client Quit) 2018-06-11T09:51:32Z smurfrobot joined #scheme 2018-06-11T09:53:13Z johndoe231 joined #scheme 2018-06-11T09:56:46Z smurfrobot quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-06-11T10:00:43Z thevishy quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-06-11T10:01:07Z thevishy joined #scheme 2018-06-11T10:02:10Z Poorbean joined #scheme 2018-06-11T10:30:51Z BitPuffin joined #scheme 2018-06-11T10:39:59Z johndoe231 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2018-06-11T10:46:44Z thevishy quit (Quit: thevishy) 2018-06-11T10:47:07Z thevishy joined #scheme 2018-06-11T10:53:10Z johndoe231 joined #scheme 2018-06-11T10:59:06Z klovett_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-06-11T10:59:34Z klovett joined #scheme 2018-06-11T10:59:35Z erkin quit (Quit: Ouch! 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I guess that can go on the list of arguments 2018-06-11T15:45:23Z sbp: the article is quite old now. where do you actually stand on the situation these days? from your present use of https I suppose you have acquiesced at least somewhat, but there's no denying that there are still a number of problems (including the case in point) 2018-06-11T15:54:31Z wingo: oh i dunno, it's many moving parts, but it's just something you have to do :P 2018-06-11T15:54:42Z wingo: terrible. at least letsencrypt makes it better 2018-06-11T16:04:53Z joast quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2018-06-11T16:07:20Z badkins joined #scheme 2018-06-11T16:07:33Z joast joined #scheme 2018-06-11T16:09:10Z cortisol joined #scheme 2018-06-11T16:09:23Z badkins_ joined #scheme 2018-06-11T16:11:45Z cortisol quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2018-06-11T16:12:36Z badkins quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2018-06-11T16:13:50Z pie_ joined #scheme 2018-06-11T16:20:00Z amz31 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-06-11T16:23:50Z civodul quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 26.1)) 2018-06-11T16:28:47Z s4vo joined #scheme 2018-06-11T16:30:14Z sbp: wingo: in further fun "web progress" news the pbs.twimg.com images that you embed are broken in FF, and the developer console points to https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/Firefox/Privacy/Tracking_Protection for further information. this is just like that time they deprecated gopher in the browser. I'm still getting over that 2018-06-11T16:31:11Z sbp: I hesitate to mention this because I'm thinking of all the features that won't land in Guile if I distract you 2018-06-11T16:31:30Z sbp: every superfluous sentence you send to wingo, a cons dies 2018-06-11T16:34:22Z klovett quit 2018-06-11T16:34:40Z jcowan: better to browse gopher with a proper gopher browser anyhow 2018-06-11T16:35:36Z sbp: I want to browse my gophers with a fox and my foxes with a gopher 2018-06-11T16:36:11Z jcowan wants nothing to do with browsing Fox 2018-06-11T16:40:24Z smurfrobot joined #scheme 2018-06-11T16:41:05Z jonaslund quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2018-06-11T16:50:02Z nckx quit (Quit: Updating my GNU GuixSD server — gnu.org/s/guix) 2018-06-11T16:51:27Z nckx joined #scheme 2018-06-11T16:53:49Z alezost quit (Quit: I live in GuixSD and Emacs ) 2018-06-11T16:59:22Z smurfrobot quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-06-11T17:00:45Z Suika joined #scheme 2018-06-11T17:02:35Z erkin quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-06-11T17:09:18Z smurfrobot joined #scheme 2018-06-11T17:13:57Z smurfrobot quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-06-11T17:18:20Z badkins_ is now known as badkins 2018-06-11T17:19:07Z qu1j0t3: haha 2018-06-11T17:19:38Z Labu joined #scheme 2018-06-11T17:21:05Z pie_ quit (Quit: Leaving) 2018-06-11T17:23:20Z daviid joined #scheme 2018-06-11T17:25:28Z Suika quit (Quit: Ouch! 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Question: which is a more Schemey name, "maybe" or "option"? 2018-06-11T19:28:29Z ecraven: (? ...) :D 2018-06-11T19:28:45Z ecraven: what are the constructors? 2018-06-11T19:28:51Z ecraven: just / nothing? 2018-06-11T19:29:36Z klovett joined #scheme 2018-06-11T19:30:25Z jcowan: Nothing is equated with #f, so that Scheme if does the Right Thing 2018-06-11T19:30:48Z ecraven: so (maybe 3) and 5? 2018-06-11T19:30:55Z ecraven: eh, (maybe 3) and #f 2018-06-11T19:30:59Z jcowan: yes 2018-06-11T19:31:00Z ecraven: (no idea where that 5 came from) 2018-06-11T19:31:07Z ecraven: that seems strange to me 2018-06-11T19:31:09Z jcowan: In this language, 5 is falsy!! 2018-06-11T19:31:15Z ecraven: if it is 3, it should be (just 3), not (maybe 3) 2018-06-11T19:31:33Z ecraven: maybe provide (nothing) -> #f? 2018-06-11T19:31:39Z jcowan: I was actually thinking of (make-maybe 5), since it is a constructor 2018-06-11T19:32:10Z jcowan: there is another constructor which returns just x if x is true, and #f if x is false 2018-06-11T19:32:21Z ecraven: to me, that seems a bit verbose. is maybe? the predicate? what's the accessor? 2018-06-11T19:32:35Z jcowan: maybe? is the predicate, maybe-ref is the accessor 2018-06-11T19:32:42Z ecraven: ah, ok, that would make things more clear then 2018-06-11T19:32:54Z ecraven: so (maybe x) returns #f if x is #f, but (just x) otherwise? 2018-06-11T19:33:15Z jcowan: we need two constructors, one which works like that, and one which always does just. 2018-06-11T19:33:30Z ecraven: I'd suggest (maybe x) and (just x) ;) 2018-06-11T19:33:47Z jcowan: I agree it is more verbose than Haskell or such, mostly because of Scheme's relentless monomorphism 2018-06-11T19:33:51Z ecraven: but I haven't used any maybe type extensively, so I'm not the best person to comment on this 2018-06-11T19:34:10Z light2yellow joined #scheme 2018-06-11T19:34:13Z jcowan: makes sense, I guess, provided we never end up with a type called just. 2018-06-11T19:34:30Z ecraven: well, the user can always rename on import 2018-06-11T19:34:45Z ecraven: it's not like other srfis don't have this problem, is it? 2018-06-11T19:34:46Z jcowan: then we have maybe-map, -join, etc. etc. 2018-06-11T19:34:59Z jcowan: well, mostly they have a common prefix plus make-prefix for the constructor 2018-06-11T19:35:03Z jcowan: but not always 2018-06-11T19:35:10Z jcowan: box and unbox, not make-box and box-ref 2018-06-11T19:35:59Z jcowan: just and unjust? 2018-06-11T19:36:24Z jcowan: The rain it raineth on the just / And likewise on the unjust fella / But chiefly on the just, because / The unjust steals the just's umbrella. 2018-06-11T19:36:25Z gwatt: what if there's a situation where I want (just #f) instead of #f 2018-06-11T19:36:45Z jcowan: that is why you need the always-just constructor 2018-06-11T19:37:18Z jcowan: so using ecraven's notation that is (just #f) as opposed to #f or (nothing). 2018-06-11T19:37:41Z jcowan: whereas if you are calling assoc, say, you want (maybe (assoc key alist)) 2018-06-11T19:37:48Z sz0 joined #scheme 2018-06-11T19:38:08Z jcowan: gotta roll, back in 3-4 hours 2018-06-11T19:38:15Z gwatt: Though if #f is nothing, then why do we need just at all? 2018-06-11T19:38:28Z jcowan: precisely to distinguish between #f and (just #f) 2018-06-11T19:38:45Z ecraven: jcowan: that quote would be nice set to music ;) 2018-06-11T19:39:04Z jcowan: return #f to fail, return (just obj) for any obj, including #f, to succeed. 2018-06-11T19:39:30Z gwatt: seems like extra cruft for marginal gain 2018-06-11T19:39:37Z jcowan: return (maybe value) to convert between object-or-#f semantics and maybe semantics 2018-06-11T19:39:48Z jcowan: it may be too late 2018-06-11T19:39:57Z jcowan: things like SRFI 1 find would benefit from it 2018-06-11T19:40:14Z ecraven: jcowan: how do I check the value for just-ness *and* ref it in one go? something simpler than (when (maybe-ref x) (do-something-with (maybe-ref x))) 2018-06-11T19:40:16Z jcowan: currently it returns #f for failure, but any object (including, ambiguously, #f) when the object is found 2018-06-11T19:40:26Z jcowan: I forget the name of that, but I do have it 2018-06-11T19:41:13Z jcowan: oh, it's (maybe-ref maybe-value [fail [succeed]]) 2018-06-11T19:41:22Z jcowan: transforms maybe into two continuations 2018-06-11T19:41:29Z ecraven: ah, I don't like that :-/ 2018-06-11T19:41:38Z ecraven: but I understand why it's done that way 2018-06-11T19:42:14Z jcowan: anyway, your example would be (when f (d-s-w (maybe-ref x)), precisely because nothing == #f 2018-06-11T19:42:30Z mazeto joined #scheme 2018-06-11T19:42:44Z ecraven: ah, good point, sorry about that 2018-06-11T19:43:07Z ecraven: actually, shouldn't the predicate be `just?' 2018-06-11T19:43:17Z ecraven: as `maybe?' should be #t for #f too 2018-06-11T19:43:17Z gwatt: jcowan: can use `memp' in place of find 2018-06-11T19:47:05Z jcowan quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2018-06-11T19:53:44Z ngz joined #scheme 2018-06-11T19:55:35Z TGO quit (Quit: I must go, my 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2018-06-13T23:07:07Z lavaflow: what is the best option for this right now? maybe chicken with gtk? 2018-06-13T23:07:37Z lavaflow: sorry for highlighting you cross... 2018-06-13T23:11:00Z smurfrobot joined #scheme 2018-06-13T23:13:19Z erkin quit (Quit: Ouch! Got SIGIRL, dying...) 2018-06-13T23:38:10Z pie_ quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2018-06-13T23:40:09Z hugo: Racket has built in graphics methods, along with the ability to produce a binary 2018-06-13T23:40:24Z hugo: But the graphics library is, in my experience, not that good 2018-06-13T23:40:35Z hugo: And I don't know how well the binary packaging fares 2018-06-13T23:41:31Z copec: Does Racket have any 3d rendering api bindings? 2018-06-13T23:41:57Z copec finds immediate answer with google 2018-06-13T23:42:11Z copec: sorry for arbitrary interjection noise 2018-06-13T23:43:19Z lritter joined #scheme 2018-06-13T23:47:25Z akkad: it ships code with a jit 2018-06-13T23:47:40Z akkad: gerbil/gambit can give you real binaries and much faster 2018-06-13T23:50:18Z Ober joined #scheme 2018-06-13T23:51:14Z lavaflow: oh, I didn't know racket did binaries. I'm actually experienced with the racket gui package. 2018-06-13T23:52:04Z lavaflow: it's not too bad. the library of widgets it gives you out of the box is a little bit inadaquate, but their canvas/drawing stuff makes it reasonably easy to make your own widgets if necessary 2018-06-13T23:52:38Z akkad: raco can deliver it 2018-06-13T23:53:14Z lavaflow: good to know. this might be what I end up doing. 2018-06-13T23:53:47Z lavaflow: akkad: does gerbil/gambit have gui bindings as a standard/community package, or would I be doing FFI stuff myself if I went that route? 2018-06-13T23:57:18Z lavaflow: maybe tk is the way to go. I've used tkinter before and it wasn't so bad. I'm a little bit intimidated by gtk to be honest. 2018-06-14T00:01:25Z jonh joined #scheme 2018-06-14T00:05:13Z akkad: well there are bindings for a lot of gui stuff, gambit has a project called LambdaNative 2018-06-14T00:05:28Z akkad: those bindings would work without recoding them, on gambit 2018-06-14T00:06:45Z lavaflow: oh, lambdanative looks very interesting! 2018-06-14T00:09:26Z daviid quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-06-14T00:15:56Z jcowan__ joined #scheme 2018-06-14T00:16:34Z lainon joined #scheme 2018-06-14T00:18:57Z jcowan_ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-06-14T00:28:48Z brendyn joined #scheme 2018-06-14T00:52:23Z klovett quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-06-14T01:01:27Z acarrico quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2018-06-14T01:07:01Z leppie quit 2018-06-14T01:08:58Z Menche: chicken has a package manager and module system with GUI stuff 2018-06-14T01:09:02Z Menche: it compiles to C 2018-06-14T01:12:29Z emacsomancer quit (Read error: Connection reset by 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I need a DSL parser for a quick prototype. How can I 'execute' code (in the form of a quoted list from (read)) in a custom environment? Any help would be appreciated. :) 2018-06-14T18:12:43Z jcowan: xfbs: What Scheme are you using 2018-06-14T18:13:25Z xfbs: jcowan: currently cisco's chez scheme, just because the REPL is nice 2018-06-14T18:13:35Z jcowan: okay then 2018-06-14T18:14:38Z jcowan: define your custom functions/macros in a module, and then (eval (read) (environment (your-library))) 2018-06-14T18:14:43Z jcowan: s/module/library 2018-06-14T18:14:58Z muelleme joined #scheme 2018-06-14T18:15:15Z jcowan: sorry, (eval (read) (environment '(your-library)) 2018-06-14T18:15:33Z jcowan: only the stuff exported by your-library will be understood 2018-06-14T18:17:59Z jcowan: (you'll need to import (rnrs eval) to get eval and environment 2018-06-14T18:19:22Z Menche joined #scheme 2018-06-14T18:22:11Z ngz joined #scheme 2018-06-14T18:25:39Z xfbs: jcowan, thanks! it works with (library (testlib) (export a) (import (rnrs)) (define (a b c) (+ b c))) to define the library and then the eval as you said. Thanks a lot, I can take it from here :) 2018-06-14T18:25:59Z jcowan: cool 2018-06-14T18:26:45Z zachk joined #scheme 2018-06-14T18:27:14Z zachk quit (Changing host) 2018-06-14T18:27:14Z zachk joined #scheme 2018-06-14T18:27:32Z xfbs: btw, would this also work in other schemes, such as chicken? 2018-06-14T18:28:13Z Labu joined #scheme 2018-06-14T18:30:38Z jcowan: It should work in any R6RS or R7RS implementation 2018-06-14T18:31:16Z terpri joined #scheme 2018-06-14T18:34:26Z jcowan: I'm testing if it works with the Chicken r7rs egg 2018-06-14T18:39:18Z klovett quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-06-14T18:40:08Z skapata quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-06-14T18:40:45Z jcowan: yes, it works, using R7RS lib syntax: (define-library (testlib) (export a) (import (scheme base)) (begin (define (a b c) (+ b c)))) 2018-06-14T18:44:49Z gwatt: do you have to put defines inside a begin? 2018-06-14T18:46:26Z xfbs: ah okay, nice! 2018-06-14T18:53:08Z nilg joined #scheme 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2018-06-15T16:57:52Z daviid joined #scheme 2018-06-15T17:14:04Z muelleme joined #scheme 2018-06-15T17:23:11Z klovett quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-06-15T17:26:47Z muelleme quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-06-15T17:28:40Z hugh_marera joined #scheme 2018-06-15T17:31:55Z lambda-11235 quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.1) 2018-06-15T17:33:41Z surya quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-06-15T17:34:57Z klovett joined #scheme 2018-06-15T17:50:10Z klovett quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-06-15T17:53:42Z j3kyl joined #scheme 2018-06-15T17:53:50Z j3kyl: what is the meaning of this symbol on scheme file? [14:52] 2018-06-15T17:54:02Z amz3: what symbol? 2018-06-15T17:54:03Z j3kyl: ^L 2018-06-15T17:54:07Z amz3: hmm 2018-06-15T17:54:17Z amz3: that's a fancy char for useless ascii art 2018-06-15T17:54:36Z amz3: it's a somekind of separator, like
in html 2018-06-15T17:54:40Z amz3: it's not scheme specific 2018-06-15T17:54:50Z qu1j0t3: iirc ^L is ascii form feed. 2018-06-15T17:54:55Z j3kyl: ooohh cool 2018-06-15T17:55:01Z qu1j0t3: so, when printed, would begin a new page. 2018-06-15T17:55:05Z amz3: it's call page break also https://github.com/purcell/page-break-lines 2018-06-15T17:55:08Z klovett joined #scheme 2018-06-15T17:55:24Z j3kyl: purcel, ofc! haha 2018-06-15T17:55:40Z excelsior quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2018-06-15T17:58:51Z j3kyl: what is the real difference beetween guile, chicken, chez... 2018-06-15T17:59:23Z amz3: the name 2018-06-15T17:59:27Z klovett_ joined #scheme 2018-06-15T17:59:34Z daviid: j3kyl: no one knows! :) 2018-06-15T17:59:48Z j3kyl: haha, so all of they are scheme compilers? 2018-06-15T17:59:53Z amz3: no 2018-06-15T18:01:22Z j3kyl: well, anyway, I will delve onto guile! hehe 2018-06-15T18:01:25Z amz3: j3kyl: that's complex question, read documentation or try this post http://wingolog.org/archives/2013/01/07/an-opinionated-guide-to-scheme-implementations 2018-06-15T18:01:34Z excelsior joined #scheme 2018-06-15T18:01:43Z j3kyl: wow, thanks 2018-06-15T18:02:29Z ecraven: just remember that document is a few years old and doesn't cover all implementations 2018-06-15T18:02:39Z daviid: j3kyl: though be aware it is outdated, especally wrt guile 2018-06-15T18:03:01Z j3kyl: okay 2018-06-15T18:03:10Z klovett quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2018-06-15T18:03:45Z j3kyl: " Unfortunately the end result of this is usually silence in the channel." haha 2018-06-15T18:04:40Z amz3: +1 ecraven 2018-06-15T18:04:46Z amz3: meh 2018-06-15T18:04:55Z amz3: daviid: what is outdated about guile? 2018-06-15T18:05:20Z ecraven: guile has gone a long way over the last few years, mostly thanks to wingo, as I understand it 2018-06-15T18:05:56Z amz3: AFAIK it's the speed boost 2018-06-15T18:06:08Z amz3: which is not as good as chez 2018-06-15T18:06:27Z ecraven: I think nothing is as good as chez (unless you count stalin as a generally usable Scheme) 2018-06-15T18:06:31Z jcowan: amz3: No, he is saying the Opinionated Guide is out of date wrt Guile 2018-06-15T18:06:41Z ecraven: see https://ecraven.github.com/r7rs-benchmarks 2018-06-15T18:07:05Z ecraven: hm.. I should really update everything and do a new run 2018-06-15T18:07:21Z daviid: ecraven: that would be wonderfull 2018-06-15T18:07:28Z jcowan: things won't change much 2018-06-15T18:07:41Z amz3: the good thing with guile is that it a good compromise between speed and third party libraries, but if you don't need POSIX threads, racket is a big win 2018-06-15T18:07:45Z jcowan: racket 7 will cause a big shift 2018-06-15T18:07:45Z ecraven: daviid: on a conference until next week, but then I'll try to update 2018-06-15T18:07:58Z daviid: great! 2018-06-15T18:08:00Z jcowan: well, racket makes you do things a la racket 2018-06-15T18:08:03Z ecraven: I'd love green threads in Chez.. handling actual real threads is no fun :-/ 2018-06-15T18:08:04Z jcowan: it doesn't integrate well 2018-06-15T18:08:05Z pjb: amz3: in 2018, should not occur anymore in source files. 1- nobody prints on ASCII printers anymore (even if some Postscript or other printer drivers would honor it). 2- nobod prints source listings, because they are just fucking too big! 50 MB+ the sources of firefox last time I watched, 20 GB+ the sources of Android, etc. 2018-06-15T18:08:23Z ecraven: pjb: emacs has some nice navigation for 2018-06-15T18:08:34Z ecraven: mit scheme sources contain a lot, for example 2018-06-15T18:08:40Z jcowan: yes, Riastradh's Scheme source has ^L in it 2018-06-15T18:08:45Z pjb: amz3: and 3- 5120 x 2880 pixel screens! 2018-06-15T18:09:07Z amz3: mit scheme is old 2018-06-15T18:09:11Z j3kyl: guix scheme has a lot haha 2018-06-15T18:09:19Z jcowan: the last time I used it was in an editor for Windows 3.0, which limited edit controls to 64K of text, so in order to edit a big file you had to paginate it in some way 2018-06-15T18:09:47Z pjb: ecraven: emacs has a lot of nice navigation, I think we can do without , and we could implement better source management in emacs, such as eg. file independent source editing, where the system would decide itself into what file to save what toplevel form. 2018-06-15T18:10:03Z jcowan: Interlisp rulez 2018-06-15T18:10:19Z ecraven: pjb: I agree ;) 2018-06-15T18:10:28Z ecraven: I still would love to see something like OpenGenera :-/ 2018-06-15T18:10:49Z amz3: dream big, code more 2018-06-15T18:10:54Z j3kyl: can I ditch python for scheme to writing cli scripts? 2018-06-15T18:10:57Z pjb: ecraven: you can run OpenGenera in an emulator. It's not too hard to gather the required images, and to run it. 2018-06-15T18:11:07Z pjb: Can be done on a Rainy Sunday. 2018-06-15T18:11:17Z pjb: j3kyl: definitely. 2018-06-15T18:11:24Z ecraven: I know, but it doesn't integrate with anything else I use 2018-06-15T18:11:36Z pjb: j3kyl: I write all my scripts in Common Lisp (clisp). In scheme, there's even a shell: scsh 2018-06-15T18:11:37Z ecraven: j3kyl: yes, and many Schemes will be much faster than python 2018-06-15T18:11:39Z daviid: ecraven: that my secret dream: using guile-clutter to write guile-genera 2018-06-15T18:11:46Z daviid: :) 2018-06-15T18:11:46Z pjb: j3kyl: Try scsh, it's nice. 2018-06-15T18:12:10Z j3kyl: pjb: scsh, great. 2018-06-15T18:12:51Z amz3: what's the point of open genera 2018-06-15T18:13:30Z daviid: amz3: lot's of fun 2018-06-15T18:13:37Z j3kyl: ecraven: interesting, even better! 2018-06-15T18:14:05Z ecraven: amz3: see what could have been 2018-06-15T18:17:53Z amz3: ^^ 2018-06-15T18:18:12Z hugh_marera quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2018-06-15T18:20:33Z hugh_marera joined #scheme 2018-06-15T18:22:57Z muelleme joined #scheme 2018-06-15T18:23:15Z akkad: lively topics :P 2018-06-15T18:23:29Z akkad: so this channel covers more than just r5rs right? 2018-06-15T18:23:47Z ecraven: I think it covers anything even remotely Scheme-related, unless a denizen objects 2018-06-15T18:24:39Z gwatt: I don't think I've even seen objections to any topics here. 2018-06-15T18:24:44Z akkad: wow. very open. unlike certain channels 2018-06-15T18:25:36Z ecraven: daviid: I'd love to write something like genera with r7rs-large and a portable ffi :-/ 2018-06-15T18:26:03Z ecraven: I've written a lot of mit-scheme specific code, that is now rather useless, after moving to chez. so I'm trying to concentrate more on "portable" code ;) 2018-06-15T18:26:27Z ecraven: not that that is possible at the moment for most non-trivial problems 2018-06-15T18:26:29Z jcowan: N times burned, N+1 times cautious, for some value of N 2018-06-15T18:26:29Z akkad: ecraven: how is chez evolving? 2018-06-15T18:26:30Z daviid: ecraven: actually, a scheme CLIM would be better then genera (I remember I did chat about that on #guile and some were interested ... but it's a hude task 2018-06-15T18:27:07Z gwatt: seems like most of the chez evolution currently is coming from the racket-on-chez effort 2018-06-15T18:27:17Z ecraven: akkad: decently, but it still is an r6rs scheme with no intention of moving on to r7rs 2018-06-15T18:27:19Z jcowan: not surprising 2018-06-15T18:27:27Z muelleme quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-06-15T18:27:37Z ecraven: it doesn't have a lot of bells and whistles, but it has a very solid base system with a great FFI 2018-06-15T18:27:53Z ecraven: so chez to me is not like racket, with everything included, but a very good base to build on 2018-06-15T18:28:21Z jcowan: it would be good if someone could push Rapid Scheme along, the whole Scheme world would benefit from it 2018-06-15T18:28:34Z Labu quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.0.1) 2018-06-15T18:28:42Z Labu joined #scheme 2018-06-15T18:29:20Z ecraven: hm.. I should add it to the benchmarks, just to see what kind of overhead it introduces 2018-06-15T18:30:28Z Labu quit (Client Quit) 2018-06-15T18:30:57Z excelsior quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-06-15T18:31:07Z excelsior joined #scheme 2018-06-15T18:31:11Z daviid: never heard of rapid scheme, and it seems unmaintained? 2018-06-15T18:31:35Z Labu joined #scheme 2018-06-15T18:40:46Z vicenteH quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-06-15T18:45:24Z cortisol joined #scheme 2018-06-15T18:46:15Z ecraven: hm.. actually, it would be even more interesting to write something like genera *without* an ffi :P 2018-06-15T18:46:28Z ecraven: I have a working X library (without an ffi) somewhere for mit 2018-06-15T18:49:02Z hugh_marera quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2018-06-15T18:49:27Z hugh_marera joined #scheme 2018-06-15T18:55:20Z wigust- joined #scheme 2018-06-15T18:55:47Z zachk joined #scheme 2018-06-15T18:55:47Z zachk quit (Changing host) 2018-06-15T18:55:47Z zachk joined #scheme 2018-06-15T18:57:35Z gwatt: does mit have first-class networking support? 2018-06-15T18:57:49Z ecraven: probably not ;) 2018-06-15T18:57:53Z ecraven: does any Scheme? 2018-06-15T18:58:01Z wigust quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-06-15T18:58:19Z ecraven: as far as I understand, in Open Genera all the drivers, everything, is Lisp Machine Lisp 2018-06-15T18:58:31Z acarrico joined #scheme 2018-06-15T18:58:44Z gwatt: Then how do you have a non-ffi X library? Doesn't that need to do network calls? 2018-06-15T18:59:18Z ecraven: ah, sorry, I understood first-class to mean "great". you can open network sockets (and UDS) in mit-scheme, and those work fine 2018-06-15T18:59:28Z ecraven: you couldn't write a TCP/IP stack in it, I think 2018-06-15T18:59:42Z gwatt: I meant first-class as in, provided by the system. 2018-06-15T19:00:21Z ecraven: yea, it has open-tcp-stream-socket, open-tcp-server-socket, tcp-server-connection-accept 2018-06-15T19:00:31Z ecraven: those just return (binary) ports that you can read and write bytes to 2018-06-15T19:04:22Z Riastradh quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2018-06-15T19:29:25Z klovett_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-06-15T19:31:34Z gwatt: that's probably the best you can do with bsd sockets 2018-06-15T19:41:54Z ecraven: yea, it's good enough for a lot of things 2018-06-15T19:51:27Z badkins_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-06-15T19:52:43Z pjb: gwatt: with two function such as (OUT ) and (IN ) -> , that compile the lisp machine instructions to send and receive a from a device port at , that's all you need to implement device drivers (for any kind of devices) in lisp! 2018-06-15T19:53:26Z pjb: gwatt: add a primitive function such as (SET-INTERRUPT-HANDLER ) and that's all you need. 2018-06-15T19:55:47Z pjb: gwatt: notice that the and are lisp objects, say, fixnums. Ie. they're tagged values. The hardware will take care to unwrap or wrap them as needed. You can assume that a hardware device that sends bytes on the network won't send the type tag, but just the 8 value bits, since that's what is specified by the Ethernet standards. or similarly, that only value bits are read or stored on a disk device, (notably if a 2018-06-15T19:55:47Z pjb: since that's what is expected for interoperability. 2018-06-15T19:56:12Z gwatt: that all makes sense 2018-06-15T19:56:18Z pjb: gwatt: on the other hand, you could design a lisp disk, where you would store not octets, but lisp objects, type-tagged and all. 2018-06-15T19:56:25Z daviid` joined #scheme 2018-06-15T19:57:09Z gwatt: oh cool, I segfaulted my jvm 2018-06-15T19:57:42Z hugh_marera quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2018-06-15T19:57:46Z daviid is now known as Guest1065 2018-06-15T19:57:46Z Guest1065 quit (Killed (hitchcock.freenode.net (Nickname regained by services))) 2018-06-15T19:57:46Z daviid` is now known as daviid 2018-06-15T19:57:57Z pjb: gwatt: and finally, notice that some common system software on unix, were actually designed in lisp. For example X11 servers have the notion of SYMBOL, defined as 29-bit values (leaving 3 bits for a type tag, when the X11 server is implemented in lisp and the symbols are lisp symbols. 2018-06-15T19:58:25Z pjb: gwatt: similarly, Postgres was once written in lisp, Smalltalk, Javascript were once written in lisp, etc. 2018-06-15T19:58:28Z gwatt: I'm not familiar with X11 2018-06-15T19:58:35Z pie_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-06-15T19:58:51Z gwatt: Is that when postgres was still ingres? 2018-06-15T19:59:22Z lambda-11235 joined #scheme 2018-06-15T19:59:46Z hugh_marera joined #scheme 2018-06-15T20:00:08Z daviid: gwatt: for info, guile core supports posix, including network vars, procs ... 2018-06-15T20:02:59Z excelsior quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2018-06-15T20:03:22Z pjb: gwatt: I think the history of postgres is available on the web. I've not read it in details. 2018-06-15T20:03:52Z excelsior joined #scheme 2018-06-15T20:03:52Z pjb: gwatt: anyways, the important thing to see, is that you can write systems in any programming language, even very high level ones. Android is written in Java. 2018-06-15T20:04:06Z pjb: Sol was a unix-like system written in Pascal. 2018-06-15T20:04:29Z ecraven: I think no hardware uses IN and OUT any longer, most things are memory-mapped now, right? 2018-06-15T20:04:35Z pjb: Mezzano is a modern OS written in Common Lisp: https://github.com/froggey/Mezzano 2018-06-15T20:05:12Z ecraven: (which is not a problem with displaced arrays in CL). does any Scheme support displaced (or just specific memory) arrays? 2018-06-15T20:05:16Z qu1j0t3: pjb: Yeah, Per Brinch Hansen's book "Classic Operating Systems" has many other examples 2018-06-15T20:05:26Z pjb: ecraven: we were talking of lisp machines. But the principle is the same: lisp hardware deals with type-tagged lisp objects, not with bytes. 2018-06-15T20:06:11Z qu1j0t3: pjb: I think early Prolog was Lisp as well? 2018-06-15T20:07:57Z klovett_ joined #scheme 2018-06-15T20:09:23Z TCZ joined #scheme 2018-06-15T20:11:07Z pjb: yes, quite possible. We still have several prolog implementations in lisp or scheme. 2018-06-15T20:12:33Z pierpal: the first prolog was written in fortran 2018-06-15T20:14:36Z pierpal quit (Quit: Poof) 2018-06-15T20:14:54Z pierpal joined #scheme 2018-06-15T20:16:12Z dbmikus quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.1) 2018-06-15T20:16:16Z muelleme joined #scheme 2018-06-15T20:17:01Z pie_ joined #scheme 2018-06-15T20:21:58Z muelleme quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-06-15T20:23:44Z jcowan: ecraven: SRFI 122 arrays are a generalization of displaced arrays, but allow arbitrary mappings of the indices (and indeed of the data as well) 2018-06-15T20:24:18Z ecraven: jcowan: the problem here is you get an "array" via the ffi, and it should be presented as a normal scheme bytevector (but never touched by GC) 2018-06-15T20:24:47Z jcowan: oh, that's a different kind of displacement than the CL type 2018-06-15T20:25:24Z ecraven: yea, sorry, I'm jumping around, I want both types of displacement ;) one to share structure, one to properly use the FFI 2018-06-15T20:25:27Z TCZ: i whois ppl on forth and everyone is like #scheme #lisp #forth #pharo #haskell 2018-06-15T20:25:30Z ecraven: zero copy and whatever buzzword 2018-06-15T20:25:30Z jcowan: I've had some thoughts of a non-portable SRFI that allows you to allocate and access such things 2018-06-15T20:25:48Z jcowan: TCZ: Not surprising 2018-06-15T20:26:00Z ecraven: jcowan: excellent! 2018-06-15T20:26:09Z jcowan: structure-sharing is automatic in SRFI 122 unless you take pains to break it 2018-06-15T20:26:18Z jcowan: as is data-sharing 2018-06-15T20:27:01Z jcowan: (array-map - some-array) returns an array that intercepts array references and transforms on the fly 2018-06-15T20:27:27Z ecraven: nice 2018-06-15T20:27:46Z pie__ joined #scheme 2018-06-15T20:27:48Z akkad: ecraven: your r7rs-swank, is it on par with say CL slime/swank? 2018-06-15T20:27:49Z pie_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2018-06-15T20:27:53Z TCZ quit (Quit: Leaving) 2018-06-15T20:28:13Z ecraven: akkad: no, there is no Scheme that can implement all of slime/swank 2018-06-15T20:28:13Z akkad: I've been using it, and it seems feature complete. was curious if anything was missing, and or any help needed 2018-06-15T20:28:27Z akkad: introspection.. 2018-06-15T20:28:32Z ecraven: cool! there's a lot missing that just cannot be implemented, especially related to debugging 2018-06-15T20:28:39Z ecraven: also, redefining things on the fly 2018-06-15T20:28:54Z ecraven: if you find anything that doesn't work, just tell me, I'll work on it ;) 2018-06-15T20:28:55Z akkad: even on gerbil? 2018-06-15T20:28:58Z ecraven: I haven't had much time 2018-06-15T20:29:09Z ecraven: yes, I think even on gerbil, though vyzo might be able to fix most things 2018-06-15T20:29:24Z ecraven: I still haven't managed to compile current gerbil-git, so I haven't tested it recently on gerbil :-/ 2018-06-15T20:29:32Z ecraven: but I use it on chez all the time, and many things work well there 2018-06-15T20:29:37Z akkad: oh? builds fine in docker. 2018-06-15T20:29:50Z ecraven: the libieee thing on arch 2018-06-15T20:30:13Z ecraven: I want to add trace support, that's still missing. the inspector also doesn't have everything. thread support is very bad too 2018-06-15T20:30:25Z jcowan: daviid: "Unmaintained" doesn't mean "abandoned" in the Scheme world, just that the (typically sole) maintainer hasn't had time to work on it recently. 2018-06-15T20:30:30Z akkad: ahh. yeah, I stick to minimal systemd supplied items in a docker, instead of legacy distro support 2018-06-15T20:31:09Z ecraven: I heartily dislike systemd and docker, I wish I could run nixos or guixsd some day :-/ 2018-06-15T20:31:28Z jcowan: ecraven: what scheme would you benchmark rapid on top of, chez? 2018-06-15T20:31:39Z ecraven: jcowan: preferably every one it supports :P 2018-06-15T20:31:41Z jcowan: you'd need an r7rs set of libs 2018-06-15T20:32:01Z ecraven: what do you mean by that? 2018-06-15T20:32:29Z jcowan: rapid is a front end, it generates r5rs-ish output, but does nothing about (say) log accepting 2 args rather than 1 2018-06-15T20:32:43Z jcowan: or the absence of read-line in R6RS 2018-06-15T20:33:37Z ngz joined #scheme 2018-06-15T20:34:12Z akkad: ecraven: gotta let go of legacy and move to the SOTAPOS 2018-06-15T20:34:15Z ecraven: oh, that's ok, I have that for chez 2018-06-15T20:34:32Z ecraven: hehe, that acronym is too hard for me 2018-06-15T20:34:51Z akkad: state of the art ... 2018-06-15T20:35:37Z daviid: jcowan: yes, i know and agree, but unlikely usable for any real project, imo at least 2018-06-15T20:36:45Z jcowan: well, it needs to be supplemented by R7RS-for-R6RS and R7RS-for-R5RS runtimes 2018-06-15T20:38:44Z jcowan: some of my SRFIs are packaged with such shims, but they only provide whatever the SRFI itself requires 2018-06-15T20:48:22Z jcowan quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-06-15T20:49:08Z jcowan joined #scheme 2018-06-15T20:55:12Z epony quit (Ping timeout: 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Got SIGIRL, dying...) 2018-06-18T00:27:46Z pjb` joined #scheme 2018-06-18T00:28:32Z pjb quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2018-06-18T00:29:43Z X-Scale: rudybot: (+ (*) (*)) 2018-06-18T00:29:43Z rudybot: X-Scale: ; Value: 2 2018-06-18T00:29:50Z X-Scale: rudybot: (apply and '(#t #t #t)) 2018-06-18T00:29:51Z rudybot: X-Scale: error: eval:1:7: and: bad syntax in: and 2018-06-18T00:30:17Z pjb`` joined #scheme 2018-06-18T00:31:52Z pjb` quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2018-06-18T00:33:23Z jcowan: X-Scale: 'and' is not a procedure but syntax: it can't be applied 2018-06-18T00:34:32Z brendyn joined #scheme 2018-06-18T00:34:35Z brendarn joined #scheme 2018-06-18T00:34:52Z pjb`` quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-06-18T00:36:51Z X-Scale: I can see that. And forces the user to find some workaround, like creating a procedural equivalent. 2018-06-18T00:37:14Z wasamasa: or reading srfi-1 2018-06-18T00:42:36Z X-Scale: every requires a pred procedure 2018-06-18T00:42:54Z wasamasa: pick identity for that 2018-06-18T00:43:23Z wasamasa: or values 2018-06-18T00:45:31Z klovett quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-06-18T00:46:41Z X-Scale: Thanks, wasamasa. It makes me see how syntax can disturb the flow of function composition. 2018-06-18T00:49:35Z brendarn quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.1) 2018-06-18T00:49:43Z lritter joined #scheme 2018-06-18T00:59:34Z klovett joined #scheme 2018-06-18T01:00:03Z smurfrobot quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-06-18T01:04:10Z smurfrobot joined #scheme 2018-06-18T01:07:11Z Fare quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2018-06-18T01:08:24Z pierpal joined #scheme 2018-06-18T01:12:55Z pierpal quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-06-18T01:14:04Z siiky quit (Quit: Leaving) 2018-06-18T01:18:15Z jonh left #scheme 2018-06-18T01:26:36Z Fare joined #scheme 2018-06-18T01:30:35Z atlask quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2018-06-18T01:36:51Z sudden quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-06-18T01:37:13Z sudden joined #scheme 2018-06-18T01:38:39Z smurfrobot quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-06-18T01:44:11Z klovett quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-06-18T01:46:46Z smurfrobot joined #scheme 2018-06-18T01:56:02Z atlask joined #scheme 2018-06-18T01:57:52Z Riastradh joined #scheme 2018-06-18T01:58:04Z smurfrobot quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-06-18T01:59:17Z smurfrobot joined #scheme 2018-06-18T02:00:21Z pierpal joined #scheme 2018-06-18T02:05:22Z robotoad quit (Quit: robotoad) 2018-06-18T02:05:53Z Fare quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2018-06-18T02:11:40Z smurfrobot quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-06-18T02:13:22Z smurfrobot joined #scheme 2018-06-18T02:18:59Z Fare joined #scheme 2018-06-18T02:20:29Z klovett joined #scheme 2018-06-18T02:21:08Z jcowan_ joined #scheme 2018-06-18T02:23:27Z jcowan quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-06-18T02:27:10Z klovett quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-06-18T02:28:00Z smurfrobot quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-06-18T02:28:51Z lritter_ joined #scheme 2018-06-18T02:29:17Z erkin joined #scheme 2018-06-18T02:32:17Z lritter quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2018-06-18T02:39:14Z robotoad joined #scheme 2018-06-18T02:47:27Z jao quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-06-18T02:58:22Z klovett joined #scheme 2018-06-18T02:58:35Z kjak quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2018-06-18T02:59:13Z daviid quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2018-06-18T03:05:21Z atlask quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-06-18T03:07:21Z atlask joined #scheme 2018-06-18T03:07:59Z j3kyl_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-06-18T03:08:01Z robotoad quit (Quit: robotoad) 2018-06-18T03:08:15Z kjak joined #scheme 2018-06-18T03:15:48Z klovett quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-06-18T03:16:19Z robotoad joined #scheme 2018-06-18T03:20:11Z Zipheir`: wait, what? 2018-06-18T03:20:16Z Zipheir`: rudybot: (*) 2018-06-18T03:20:27Z rudybot: Zipheir`: error: with-limit: out of time 2018-06-18T03:20:37Z Zipheir`: rudybot: (+ (*) (*)) 2018-06-18T03:20:45Z rudybot: Zipheir`: your sandbox is ready 2018-06-18T03:20:45Z rudybot: Zipheir`: ; Value: 2 2018-06-18T03:20:51Z Zipheir`: wth 2018-06-18T03:22:26Z Zipheir`: Hmm, I guess that's correct. 2018-06-18T03:23:23Z erkin quit (Quit: Ouch! 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Labu: ok 2018-06-19T17:18:56Z wasamasa: you'll probably get better help for implementation-specific questions elsewhere 2018-06-19T17:19:23Z Labu: yes #gosh is not really active wasamasa 2018-06-19T17:19:36Z wasamasa: I'd expect it to be #gauche 2018-06-19T17:19:37Z Labu: about srfi ? 2018-06-19T17:21:00Z Labu: nobody on #gauche 2018-06-19T17:21:18Z wasamasa: does it have a mailing list? 2018-06-19T17:21:18Z smurfrobot quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-06-19T17:24:14Z Labu: yeah wasamasa 2018-06-19T17:27:55Z pierpal quit (Quit: Poof) 2018-06-19T17:28:12Z pierpal joined #scheme 2018-06-19T17:36:01Z Labu: thx 2018-06-19T17:49:40Z skapata joined #scheme 2018-06-19T17:52:43Z klovett quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-06-19T17:54:27Z Menche joined #scheme 2018-06-19T17:58:04Z klovett joined #scheme 2018-06-19T18:02:30Z surya quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-06-19T18:03:46Z hugh_marera joined #scheme 2018-06-19T18:19:51Z nivpgir joined #scheme 2018-06-19T18:20:01Z 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2018-06-19T18:57:23Z jcowan__ joined #scheme 2018-06-19T18:57:23Z jcowan_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2018-06-19T19:03:45Z wasamasa: apparently they do 2018-06-19T19:08:47Z pierpal quit (Quit: Poof) 2018-06-19T19:09:05Z pierpal joined #scheme 2018-06-19T19:20:22Z Menche quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-06-19T19:23:17Z jcowan_ joined #scheme 2018-06-19T19:23:42Z jcowan__ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2018-06-19T19:25:50Z alexshendi joined #scheme 2018-06-19T19:27:38Z Menche joined #scheme 2018-06-19T19:32:17Z erkin quit (Quit: Ouch! 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Although I downloaded through YouTube (through an unofficial method, of course!) 2018-06-19T21:06:58Z aeth: https://ocw.mit.edu/courses/electrical-engineering-and-computer-science/6-001-structure-and-interpretation-of-computer-programs-spring-2005/video-lectures/1a-overview-and-introduction-to-lisp/ 2018-06-19T21:06:59Z rudybot: http://teensy.info/4YIcVEqRzD 2018-06-19T21:07:08Z aeth: Download this Video > Video 2018-06-19T21:07:19Z aeth: I should probably download through that method and see if they're a different quality 2018-06-19T21:09:50Z daviid: aeth: yes we can download or view it on ... youtube (which has nothing to do with this channel...) 2018-06-19T21:09:56Z daviid: :) 2018-06-19T21:10:00Z skapata: The videos from MIT in YouTube are not available in my country (Brazil). 2018-06-19T21:10:31Z aeth: It says that they're not available in your country, which is technically true because they're not available worldwide 2018-06-19T21:10:56Z rain1: http://archive.org/download/MIT_Structure_of_Computer_Programs_1986/ 2018-06-19T21:20:44Z daviid: someone could update the bot so it points to the above link instead (or 'as well') 2018-06-19T21:20:45Z pierpa joined #scheme 2018-06-19T21:21:05Z daviid: it's a recurrent quiz here ... 2018-06-19T21:24:17Z rain1: !sicp 2018-06-19T21:26:00Z cmaloney: https://archive.org/details/MIT_Structure_of_Computer_Programs_1986 <- might be a better link 2018-06-19T21:28:30Z Fare joined #scheme 2018-06-19T21:28:51Z j3kyl_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-06-19T21:29:47Z erkin joined #scheme 2018-06-19T21:40:02Z aeth: I think it's particularly unfriendly that they say "not available in your country" and not "blocked worldwide" because I think most people will just assume it's blocked in their country and not look for an alternative 2018-06-19T21:41:10Z muelleme joined #scheme 2018-06-19T21:45:11Z klovett quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-06-19T21:46:40Z muelleme quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2018-06-19T21:49:01Z klovett joined #scheme 2018-06-19T21:50:42Z civodul quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 26.1)) 2018-06-19T22:10:25Z Menche joined #scheme 2018-06-19T22:13:48Z vicenteH quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2018-06-19T22:25:25Z Fare quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-06-19T22:34:02Z j3kyl_ joined #scheme 2018-06-19T22:48:39Z klovett quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-06-19T22:51:00Z erkin quit (Quit: Ouch! 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Oysters. 2018-06-20T06:57:02Z sakalli_ quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2018-06-20T06:59:20Z jyc joined #scheme 2018-06-20T07:02:54Z muelleme quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2018-06-20T07:03:50Z muelleme joined #scheme 2018-06-20T07:06:01Z nilg joined #scheme 2018-06-20T07:07:43Z smurfrobot joined #scheme 2018-06-20T07:08:32Z muelleme quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2018-06-20T07:10:05Z sakalli_ joined #scheme 2018-06-20T07:18:57Z amz31 joined #scheme 2018-06-20T07:19:13Z smurfrobot quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-06-20T07:41:21Z smurfrobot joined #scheme 2018-06-20T07:55:32Z smurfrobot quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-06-20T08:14:25Z sakalli_ quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2018-06-20T08:21:20Z excelsior quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-06-20T08:21:28Z excelsior joined #scheme 2018-06-20T08:22:04Z greatscottttt joined #scheme 2018-06-20T08:22:27Z leppie quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-06-20T08:22:58Z sakalli_ joined #scheme 2018-06-20T08:27:19Z nilg quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-06-20T08:29:46Z terpri quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-06-20T08:41:10Z wigust- quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-06-20T08:43:56Z sakalli_ quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2018-06-20T08:54:33Z civodul joined #scheme 2018-06-20T09:02:24Z nordstrom quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2018-06-20T09:04:58Z nordstrom joined #scheme 2018-06-20T09:11:13Z sakalli_ joined #scheme 2018-06-20T09:27:22Z siraben quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-06-20T09:30:35Z smurfrobot joined #scheme 2018-06-20T09:33:06Z edgar-rft quit (Quit: edgar-rft) 2018-06-20T09:35:27Z smurfrobot quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-06-20T09:45:16Z ManDay[m] joined #scheme 2018-06-20T09:47:18Z ManDay[m]: How do you deal with high order procdures? I find it very inconvenient to count the opening parentheses correctly (absent any counterpart, as opposed to the closing ones). So ((((curry-fully f) 1) 2) 3) is really awkward to type out. 2018-06-20T09:47:30Z ManDay[m]: And I think that was even one paren too much... 2018-06-20T09:52:19Z amz31 quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2018-06-20T09:54:42Z amz31 joined #scheme 2018-06-20T10:03:32Z sakalli_ quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2018-06-20T10:05:32Z smurfrobot joined #scheme 2018-06-20T10:07:12Z smurfrobot quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-06-20T10:07:50Z sakalli_ joined #scheme 2018-06-20T10:20:35Z amz31 quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2018-06-20T10:21:35Z sakalli_ quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2018-06-20T10:26:09Z terpri joined #scheme 2018-06-20T10:40:32Z amz31 joined #scheme 2018-06-20T10:42:22Z greatscottttt quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2018-06-20T10:42:36Z greatscottttt joined #scheme 2018-06-20T10:55:09Z pierpal quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2018-06-20T10:57:13Z pierpal joined #scheme 2018-06-20T11:02:25Z lockywolf__ joined #scheme 2018-06-20T11:03:53Z gwatt: ManDay[m]: I guess I don't nest open parens that much 2018-06-20T11:04:59Z ManDay[m]: Admitted, it's kind of the academic cases where this happens. But when it happens, it is annoying ^^ 2018-06-20T11:07:12Z ManDay[m]: On a more general note, I don't understand why Scheme uses parantheses at all. It would be much simpler with "adaptive currying" (i.e. absorb arguments as they come - makes errors messages about wrong number of arguments a thing of the past) and no parentheses other than for precedence. 2018-06-20T11:07:50Z ManDay[m]: I guess the programs would also be a pain in the back to debug, but you'd always be free to place parantheses if you see fit 2018-06-20T11:08:18Z gwatt: sounds like you want haskell 2018-06-20T11:09:01Z ManDay[m]: As a matter of fact, I've just started looking into it. But I really don't want it as a replacement of scheme. I like the simplicity of scheme and haskell can't offer that. 2018-06-20T11:10:33Z ManDay[m]: But indeed just the "adaptive currying" idea seems elegant. 2018-06-20T11:11:49Z gwatt: You can spoof it: (define (curry f . a) (lambda b (apply f (append a b)))) 2018-06-20T11:12:08Z lockywolf_ joined #scheme 2018-06-20T11:13:41Z ManDay[m]: sure, that's what I like about Scheme ;) You can spoof almost everything. But I'd find it nice as part of the language, that way the concept of "too few/too many arguments" would just vanish into thin air (apart from the last scope) 2018-06-20T11:14:49Z ManDay[m]: and removing the need for parens, it wouldn't be much more than a speciication thing since in practice you'd need them to assign precedence, but it wouldn't be mandatory anymore 2018-06-20T11:15:07Z lockywolf__ quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2018-06-20T11:17:09Z gwatt: Sounds like you want a scheme that supports this: https://srfi.schemers.org/srfi-110/ 2018-06-20T11:18:56Z ManDay[m]: oh god what is this... "syntactically-meaningful indention"... python-esk scheme? hell nah! 2018-06-20T11:19:45Z ManDay[m]: i really just wanted to *remove* constraints from the syntax. not add features! 2018-06-20T11:21:27Z ManDay[m]: depending on the precedence rule in "my scheme", that suggested expression would work though (apart from the {}?) 2018-06-20T11:22:14Z ManDay[m]: well, it need some reasonable parens, like... 2018-06-20T11:22:17Z smurfrobot joined #scheme 2018-06-20T11:24:14Z ManDay[m]: define (fib) n (if < n 2 n * fib (- n 1) n) 2018-06-20T11:24:26Z ManDay[m]: (where the parens around - are just because that would possibly accept more than 2 args 2018-06-20T11:25:09Z ManDay[m]: ok, that was factorial, not fib... anyway... 2018-06-20T11:25:46Z ManDay[m]: is it worth the time writing an srfi for that? 2018-06-20T11:25:56Z gwatt: how can you possibly parse that if expression? 2018-06-20T11:26:02Z ManDay[m]: it would be downwards compatible to r6rs 2018-06-20T11:27:04Z ManDay[m]: it goes like this: if wants to eat 3 arguments, for the first argument comes <, which wants to eat 2, so it will eat "n" and "2", since it can't eat more, it will become the 1st argument to if, and so on... 2018-06-20T11:27:26Z gwatt: actually, < is variadic 2018-06-20T11:27:40Z gwatt: rudybot: eval (< 1 2 3 4) 2018-06-20T11:27:41Z ManDay[m]: Nothing would stop you to add the parentheses that would normally be there, but it would work like that 2018-06-20T11:27:51Z rudybot: gwatt: error: with-limit: out of time 2018-06-20T11:28:02Z gwatt: well, that should => #t 2018-06-20T11:28:05Z ManDay[m]: gwatt: right, so in that case it's the same as with -, you'd need the parens 2018-06-20T11:28:45Z ManDay[m]: though, while I say that, I notice it's not really that kind of currying that I suggested 2018-06-20T11:29:11Z gwatt: I think that properly parsing that if expression is impossible the way you have written it 2018-06-20T11:29:25Z ManDay[m]: (the closing paren would set a definite end to the list of arguments) 2018-06-20T11:31:22Z ManDay[m]: precedence is just: everything eats arguments until it encounters the parenthesis which closes the block which it is part of, or until it has eaten all the arguments it wants (2nd case never happens for variadic procs) 2018-06-20T11:31:31Z ManDay[m]: i think that's well def'ed, or do you have a counter example? 2018-06-20T11:32:24Z ManDay[m]: i suppose variadic functions really make this less beautiful than it could be, because with out them, the currying would work just fine 2018-06-20T11:33:57Z gwatt: What if the compiler doesn't know how many arguments a given function takes 2018-06-20T11:34:10Z ManDay[m]: you mean if its variadic? 2018-06-20T11:35:15Z gwatt: I mean that you can pass functions around as parameters 2018-06-20T11:36:15Z gwatt: In this case, the compiler can't determine arity. 2018-06-20T11:36:19Z ManDay[m]: But the compiler has to know how many arguments that "object" being passed around takes 2018-06-20T11:36:48Z ManDay[m]: I don't understand. If I refer to a function, the compiler must know which function I'm referring to and thus knows the number of args 2018-06-20T11:37:36Z ManDay[m]: (unless it is originally variadic, of course) 2018-06-20T11:39:50Z gwatt: but you don't necessarily know what functions will be passed around at compile time 2018-06-20T11:42:20Z ManDay[m]: Well then, you have a problem. Just like you currently have that problem, too, if you write something polymorphic: If I write (f 1 2 3) and I can't tell for sure the type of f, the semantics of that expression are only determined at runtime (whether it's an error or not) 2018-06-20T11:43:22Z ManDay[m]: So just like currently, the runtime will have to dynamically determine whether that expression was/is "okay" (assuming your function is polymorphic), it would have to do the same for determining what arguments are being passed. 2018-06-20T11:43:44Z gwatt: that sounds terrible 2018-06-20T11:43:59Z ManDay[m]: I admit that's quite a demand to make, but it doesn't change anything about the syntactical consistency 2018-06-20T11:44:24Z ManDay[m]: For the compiler writer, yes. For the code writer it sounds terrific, i think 2018-06-20T11:45:00Z ManDay[m]: In any case, polymorphic code is a horror for compilers anyway, or so I think 2018-06-20T11:45:17Z ManDay[m]: this doesn't make it all so much worse 2018-06-20T11:46:03Z gwatt: scheme right now has no syntactic ambiguity. Are there aesthetically too many parens? Maybe. 2018-06-20T11:46:59Z gwatt: I'm not convinced your solution is yet tenable to eliminate parens while maintaining clarity 2018-06-20T11:47:42Z gwatt: and we haven't even touched on macros yet. 2018-06-20T11:47:49Z smurfrobot quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-06-20T11:48:01Z smurfrobot joined #scheme 2018-06-20T11:49:04Z ManDay[m]: yeah, i agree (I think its tenable to eliminate parents without macros, but more I can't say) 2018-06-20T11:49:51Z jao joined #scheme 2018-06-20T11:50:55Z ManDay[m]: How often does that happen in practice of a "properly and elegantly" coded scheme program - that you pass around functions of unknown-at-compile-time type? 2018-06-20T11:51:31Z ManDay[m]: Just curious, since I've never had that (but then I don't do a lot in Scheme) 2018-06-20T11:52:06Z ManDay[m]: By the way, do you happen to know how Haskell deals with that? 2018-06-20T11:52:29Z gwatt: Yes, haskell just requires parens to group function arguments 2018-06-20T11:52:35Z ManDay[m]: Does it really run under "syntactic ambiguity" there? 2018-06-20T11:52:46Z ManDay[m]: I suppose Haskell's type system forces you limit the amount of cases a-priori tho 2018-06-20T11:53:05Z ManDay[m]: Ah, ok 2018-06-20T11:53:41Z gwatt: Given a function "mAdd :: Maybe Int -> Maybe Int -> Maybe Int" 2018-06-20T11:53:58Z ManDay[m]: As I said though, I can't imagine a case where you'd actually do that... Pass different functions into a place (and therefore also call them differently). It just sounds awful 2018-06-20T11:53:59Z gwatt: you would call it like so: mAdd (Just 1) (Just 2) 2018-06-20T11:55:13Z cmaloney quit (Read error: No route to host) 2018-06-20T11:55:13Z ManDay[m]: yeah, ok those parens resolve that ambiguity 2018-06-20T11:55:39Z ManDay[m]: mAdd cannot be interpreted as a function argument which is eaten all alone, that way 2018-06-20T11:56:46Z gwatt: I wasn't asking for functions with different arity to behave differently, I was pointing out that you could not, at compile time, know the arity of every function in an expression and use that to determine when to stop accumulating arguments to that function 2018-06-20T11:58:11Z ManDay[m]: sure, why do you repeat that? I understood that. I just can't imagine a case where the arity is not *possibly* known at compile-time 2018-06-20T11:58:52Z ManDay[m]: If it is *possible* for the compiler to know it, I'd have said it should. So I assumed those case where you actually *cant* know it (because, say, it depends on input to the program) 2018-06-20T11:59:21Z ManDay[m]: And those cases, I just can't imagine. 2018-06-20T11:59:50Z gwatt: Consider all the standard library functions that accept arbitrary functions as input 2018-06-20T11:59:54Z gwatt: like find 2018-06-20T12:00:00Z gwatt: or map 2018-06-20T12:00:10Z ManDay[m]: hm 2018-06-20T12:00:51Z gwatt: map's probably the perfect example, because you can pass any number of lists, and the function you're passing map should accept that many arguments 2018-06-20T12:00:57Z smurfrobot quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-06-20T12:01:00Z ManDay[m]: that still doesn't specify how the compiler can't possibly know it. 2018-06-20T12:01:16Z gwatt: because map is already compiled by the time I'm using it 2018-06-20T12:01:26Z ManDay[m]: I use find and map for different functions, yes. But as long as they are knowable at compile time, we're good. 2018-06-20T12:01:38Z cmaloney joined #scheme 2018-06-20T12:02:10Z ManDay[m]: well, if map is already compiled, you won't have to care about any ambiguity hidden in the syntax of its implementation in the first case 2018-06-20T12:02:34Z ManDay[m]: *place 2018-06-20T12:03:15Z gwatt: You do if you're the one writing map to use this paren-lite syntax 2018-06-20T12:03:15Z pierpal quit (Quit: Poof) 2018-06-20T12:03:32Z pierpal joined #scheme 2018-06-20T12:03:34Z ManDay[m]: I really think you'd be hard pressed to come up with an example where you actually say "I pass a function of unknowable type into my function F, where the syntax therefore becomes ambiguous". 2018-06-20T12:03:44Z ManDay[m]: Of course it's possible, but not reasonable, imo 2018-06-20T12:04:55Z ManDay[m]: gwatt: But you don't WANT ambiguity in that case. You'd necessarily write map so that it's unambiguous! 2018-06-20T12:05:09Z ManDay[m]: (by using parentheses accordingly) 2018-06-20T12:07:37Z ManDay[m]: (i.e. we still have not constructed a case where a compiler would have to concern itself with such kind of ambiguity) 2018-06-20T12:08:18Z ManDay[m]: Anyway, I admit my proposal admits for this - though I can't imagine a situation 2018-06-20T12:11:54Z leppie joined #scheme 2018-06-20T12:15:36Z ManDay[m]: By the way: Although it sounds unconventional, I don't think "ambiguous syntax" is any bad if the code were purely interpreted. I have no understanding of how the Scheme compiler to bytecode works, but at least for an interpreter, I don't see how it's any bad if you only know which arguments are absorbed by whom at runtime. 2018-06-20T12:19:59Z j3kyl_ joined #scheme 2018-06-20T12:20:49Z ManDay[m]: Also, (and sorry for the monologue) I think the problem only comes in those cases which previously didn't even exist. So say, you build your compiler so that it "detects" those cases (which it can readily do) and then does some weird, inefficient measure to deal with it. You'd never hit that case unless you're actually using that "new possibility" of using that ambiguity (which is actually a semantic thing, so something 2018-06-20T12:20:50Z ManDay[m]: which you have never done nor needed before - q.e.d. w.r.t. my last point)! 2018-06-20T12:22:26Z ManDay[m]: I think I just found myself a pet project.... 2018-06-20T12:44:53Z klovett joined #scheme 2018-06-20T12:48:33Z pierpal quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2018-06-20T13:00:18Z klovett quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-06-20T13:00:26Z excelsior quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2018-06-20T13:13:01Z Fare joined #scheme 2018-06-20T13:14:14Z smurfrobot joined #scheme 2018-06-20T13:18:09Z excelsior joined #scheme 2018-06-20T13:19:50Z sakalli_ joined #scheme 2018-06-20T13:21:15Z dieggsy joined #scheme 2018-06-20T13:23:24Z pierpal joined #scheme 2018-06-20T13:25:46Z smurfrobot quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-06-20T13:26:01Z smurfrobot joined #scheme 2018-06-20T13:29:32Z klovett joined #scheme 2018-06-20T13:30:37Z BitPuffin joined #scheme 2018-06-20T13:30:52Z pierpal quit (Quit: Poof) 2018-06-20T13:31:10Z pierpal joined #scheme 2018-06-20T13:31:53Z amz31 quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.9.1) 2018-06-20T13:38:38Z dieggsy quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-06-20T13:40:53Z dieggsy joined #scheme 2018-06-20T13:47:52Z dbmikus joined #scheme 2018-06-20T13:48:20Z dieggsy quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-06-20T13:50:12Z dieggsy joined #scheme 2018-06-20T13:51:58Z Inline joined #scheme 2018-06-20T13:52:59Z dbmikus quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2018-06-20T13:53:11Z dbmikus_ joined #scheme 2018-06-20T13:55:05Z Fare quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2018-06-20T13:56:01Z smurfrobot quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-06-20T13:56:49Z klovett quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-06-20T13:59:27Z lockywolf_ quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-06-20T13:59:54Z smurfrobot joined #scheme 2018-06-20T14:00:24Z alexshendi joined #scheme 2018-06-20T14:11:10Z klovett joined #scheme 2018-06-20T14:18:10Z TheGreekOwl joined #scheme 2018-06-20T14:19:55Z dieggsy quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-06-20T14:28:09Z smurfrobot quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-06-20T14:42:41Z sakalli_ quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2018-06-20T14:46:48Z smurfrobot joined #scheme 2018-06-20T14:49:37Z skapata joined #scheme 2018-06-20T14:50:14Z erkin joined #scheme 2018-06-20T14:50:44Z erkin quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-06-20T14:51:14Z erkin joined #scheme 2018-06-20T14:51:30Z smurfrobot quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2018-06-20T14:53:52Z smurfrobot joined #scheme 2018-06-20T14:53:54Z pjb joined #scheme 2018-06-20T14:54:25Z smurfrobot quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-06-20T14:54:37Z smurfrobot joined #scheme 2018-06-20T15:02:35Z erkin quit (Quit: Ouch! Got SIGIRL, dying...) 2018-06-20T15:05:12Z smurfrobot quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-06-20T15:08:47Z robotoad joined #scheme 2018-06-20T15:10:57Z lritter_ quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2018-06-20T15:21:24Z pierpal quit (Quit: Poof) 2018-06-20T15:21:41Z pierpal joined #scheme 2018-06-20T15:27:38Z smurfrobot joined #scheme 2018-06-20T15:32:46Z smurfrobot quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-06-20T15:36:22Z dieggsy joined #scheme 2018-06-20T15:40:30Z robotoad quit (Quit: robotoad) 2018-06-20T15:40:55Z robotoad joined #scheme 2018-06-20T15:46:53Z robotoad quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2018-06-20T15:47:00Z robotoad_ joined #scheme 2018-06-20T15:48:25Z tubuliferous joined #scheme 2018-06-20T15:52:14Z robotoad_ quit (Quit: robotoad_) 2018-06-20T16:04:01Z robotoad joined #scheme 2018-06-20T16:15:10Z greatscottttt quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.9) 2018-06-20T16:17:39Z smurfrobot joined #scheme 2018-06-20T16:18:14Z wigust joined #scheme 2018-06-20T16:23:46Z excelsior quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-06-20T16:24:23Z excelsior joined #scheme 2018-06-20T16:29:32Z klovett quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-06-20T16:30:45Z smurfrobot quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-06-20T16:41:23Z j3kyl_ quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2018-06-20T16:46:27Z InPhase: Can someone suggest a good set of vim settings for scheme? 2018-06-20T16:50:37Z Labu joined #scheme 2018-06-20T16:54:49Z atlask joined #scheme 2018-06-20T16:58:29Z excelsior quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2018-06-20T16:59:39Z atlask quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-06-20T17:00:22Z atlask joined #scheme 2018-06-20T17:03:05Z pierpal quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-06-20T17:08:10Z atlask quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-06-20T17:09:39Z atlask joined #scheme 2018-06-20T17:10:45Z excelsior joined #scheme 2018-06-20T17:16:45Z sakalli_ joined #scheme 2018-06-20T17:17:37Z dieggsy quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-06-20T17:18:57Z atlask quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2018-06-20T17:21:15Z klovett joined #scheme 2018-06-20T17:21:39Z jcowan_ joined #scheme 2018-06-20T17:24:47Z jcowan quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-06-20T17:24:54Z atlask joined #scheme 2018-06-20T17:28:45Z qu1j0t3: the only thing i ever did was -l 2018-06-20T17:29:39Z muelleme joined #scheme 2018-06-20T17:31:40Z gwatt: InPhase: You could check out akeep's vim-patches. It provides a better indentation rule for scheme code 2018-06-20T17:32:02Z gwatt: https://github.com/akeep/vim-patches 2018-06-20T17:33:22Z atlask quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-06-20T17:34:50Z dieggsy joined #scheme 2018-06-20T17:38:53Z hugh_marera joined #scheme 2018-06-20T17:49:45Z pierpal joined #scheme 2018-06-20T17:50:45Z badkins quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-06-20T17:56:28Z pierpal quit (Quit: Poof) 2018-06-20T17:57:14Z pierpal joined #scheme 2018-06-20T17:59:24Z dieggsy quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-06-20T17:59:42Z InPhase: Thanks. I see set lisp (what -l seems to do) does most of the sensible things already. I'll look over that vim-patches as well. 2018-06-20T18:03:39Z badkins joined #scheme 2018-06-20T18:07:29Z dieggsy joined #scheme 2018-06-20T18:09:06Z muelleme quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-06-20T18:10:23Z badkins_ joined #scheme 2018-06-20T18:10:59Z pigmentink joined #scheme 2018-06-20T18:11:04Z pigmentink: Hello guys 2018-06-20T18:11:15Z pigmentink: Brand new to scheme. Reading SICP 2018-06-20T18:11:36Z pigmentink: Can someone tell me how I can run a file in REPL mode 2018-06-20T18:12:07Z pigmentink: the user manual says to rename the *scheme* buffer and M-x repl to have two REPL buffer but it isn't working 2018-06-20T18:12:17Z badkins quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2018-06-20T18:15:59Z smurfrobot joined #scheme 2018-06-20T18:16:17Z surya quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2018-06-20T18:16:25Z X-Scale: hello, pigmentink 2018-06-20T18:16:52Z pigmentink: Hi X-Scale 2018-06-20T18:17:23Z X-Scale: What scheme framework are you using ? 2018-06-20T18:17:30Z X-Scale: MIT-Scheme ? 2018-06-20T18:17:32Z pigmentink: Edwin 2018-06-20T18:17:34Z pigmentink: yes 2018-06-20T18:17:35Z X-Scale: nice 2018-06-20T18:17:43Z pigmentink: on arch 2018-06-20T18:19:05Z X-Scale: I just open a .scm file with C-x C-f 2018-06-20T18:19:47Z pigmentink: And it goes to REPL mode auto? 2018-06-20T18:20:16Z pigmentink: Mine just stay in Scheme. and outputs aren't written in text 2018-06-20T18:21:07Z X-Scale: You can go back to the REPL buffer by pressing C-M-l 2018-06-20T18:21:31Z X-Scale: And there you can see the results of your Scheme buffer evaluations 2018-06-20T18:21:39Z pigmentink: The thing is I want the FILE to have the REPL buffer. So the outputs get saved. 2018-06-20T18:21:42Z brendyn quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-06-20T18:23:45Z pigmentink: Is there any way to do that? In the user manual it talks about the creation of two REPL buffers 2018-06-20T18:24:18Z pigmentink: I don't know if I'm doing something wrong or if that functionality isn't supported anymore 2018-06-20T18:24:51Z X-Scale: Maybe there is. I don't know. I'd just save the repl buffer to a file at the end. 2018-06-20T18:25:35Z pigmentink: Hmm like a fileXXOutput.txt? 2018-06-20T18:26:01Z X-Scale: Yes, whatever file name that you prefer. 2018-06-20T18:27:02Z pigmentink: Thanks. I'll just set this autistic thing aside ^^ 2018-06-20T18:27:16Z X-Scale: You could also redirect the default output port of your scheme buffer to a file 2018-06-20T18:27:36Z jao quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-06-20T18:27:51Z pigmentink: Was thinking of copying and pasting wanted outputs under the call 2018-06-20T18:29:47Z pigmentink quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-06-20T18:30:06Z pigmentink joined #scheme 2018-06-20T18:30:28Z pigmentink: X-Scale, DCed. ddi you say smt? 2018-06-20T18:33:43Z X-Scale: pigmentink: I haven't 2018-06-20T18:34:21Z pigmentink: X-Scale, I'll just dele and C-y everything in the .scm file 2018-06-20T18:34:21Z pigmentink: thanks 2018-06-20T18:35:55Z X-Scale: You could also C-x C-w on the repl buffer 2018-06-20T18:35:56Z amz3: pigmentink: welcome 2018-06-20T18:36:17Z pigmentink quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-06-20T18:36:39Z pigmentink joined #scheme 2018-06-20T18:37:06Z lambda-11235 joined #scheme 2018-06-20T18:37:15Z daviid joined #scheme 2018-06-20T18:37:42Z alexshendi quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2018-06-20T18:38:10Z dieggsy quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2018-06-20T18:38:18Z excelsior quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2018-06-20T18:38:45Z pierpal quit (Quit: Poof) 2018-06-20T18:39:02Z pierpal joined #scheme 2018-06-20T18:39:18Z excelsior joined #scheme 2018-06-20T18:43:01Z X-Scale: pigmentink: there's also set-current-output-port! 2018-06-20T18:46:06Z pigmentink: going to look for it in the manual 2018-06-20T18:46:08Z pigmentink: what's that? 2018-06-20T18:46:49Z atlask joined #scheme 2018-06-20T18:48:05Z zachk joined #scheme 2018-06-20T18:48:05Z zachk quit (Changing host) 2018-06-20T18:48:05Z zachk joined #scheme 2018-06-20T18:48:43Z pigmentink: I don't think it's in the manual 2018-06-20T18:50:44Z X-Scale: Look on the reference manual 2018-06-20T18:50:46Z X-Scale: It's there 2018-06-20T18:50:54Z X-Scale: 14.1 Ports 2018-06-20T18:51:15Z X-Scale: It will redirect all the output to a file you choose 2018-06-20T18:51:23Z pigmentink: Hm nice 2018-06-20T18:52:16Z X-Scale: like (set-current-output-port! (open-output-file "output.txt")) 2018-06-20T18:53:52Z pigmentink: Thanks :) 2018-06-20T18:54:14Z X-Scale: You probably have to store the output port somewhere so you can close it in the end 2018-06-20T18:54:22Z X-Scale: And have all output saved to that file 2018-06-20T18:54:59Z pigmentink: I'm still reading about ports arm 2018-06-20T18:55:02Z pigmentink: atm* 2018-06-20T18:56:51Z pigmentink: so i have to open a port for a file and when i close the oprt it saves the output? 2018-06-20T18:59:56Z atlask quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2018-06-20T19:01:08Z atlask joined #scheme 2018-06-20T19:08:04Z jcowan__ joined #scheme 2018-06-20T19:08:06Z atlask quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2018-06-20T19:08:44Z hugh_marera quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2018-06-20T19:11:14Z jcowan_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-06-20T19:25:22Z nivpgir joined #scheme 2018-06-20T19:26:08Z Guest31678 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-06-20T19:26:24Z hugh_marera joined #scheme 2018-06-20T19:26:25Z jcowan_ joined #scheme 2018-06-20T19:29:45Z jcowan__ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-06-20T19:39:47Z j3kyl_ joined #scheme 2018-06-20T19:41:46Z nivpgir quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-06-20T19:45:34Z jao joined #scheme 2018-06-20T19:57:54Z daviid quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-06-20T19:59:51Z muelleme joined #scheme 2018-06-20T20:11:27Z pigmentink quit (Quit: Leaving) 2018-06-20T20:24:35Z sakalli_ quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2018-06-20T20:33:51Z atlask joined #scheme 2018-06-20T20:35:09Z badkins_ quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2018-06-20T20:39:22Z terpri quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-06-20T20:41:13Z muelleme quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-06-20T20:50:22Z excelsior quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-06-20T20:50:30Z excelsior joined #scheme 2018-06-20T20:56:03Z muelleme joined #scheme 2018-06-20T20:58:32Z atlask quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-06-20T21:06:58Z dmiles quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-06-20T21:16:49Z dmiles joined #scheme 2018-06-20T21:22:41Z muelleme quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-06-20T21:28:25Z siiky joined #scheme 2018-06-20T21:51:55Z badkins joined #scheme 2018-06-20T21:58:12Z civodul quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 26.1)) 2018-06-20T22:02:19Z TCZ joined #scheme 2018-06-20T22:06:31Z niklasl2 joined #scheme 2018-06-20T22:06:56Z niklasl quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2018-06-20T22:08:57Z excelsior quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2018-06-20T22:12:01Z TCZ quit (Quit: Leaving) 2018-06-20T22:16:33Z jao quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2018-06-20T22:17:19Z jao joined #scheme 2018-06-20T22:23:47Z jao quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-06-20T22:25:54Z jao joined #scheme 2018-06-20T22:26:18Z atlask joined #scheme 2018-06-20T22:35:16Z terpri joined #scheme 2018-06-20T22:46:54Z pierpal quit (Quit: Poof) 2018-06-20T22:47:13Z pierpal joined #scheme 2018-06-20T22:55:27Z atlask quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.1) 2018-06-20T22:57:10Z j3kyl_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-06-20T22:57:41Z robotoad quit (Quit: robotoad) 2018-06-20T22:57:55Z erkin joined #scheme 2018-06-20T22:58:32Z hugh_marera quit (Quit: hugh_marera) 2018-06-20T23:03:12Z jcowan_ quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-06-20T23:04:34Z pierpa joined #scheme 2018-06-20T23:05:55Z robotoad joined #scheme 2018-06-20T23:19:19Z BitPuffin quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-06-20T23:33:51Z turtleman joined #scheme 2018-06-20T23:37:08Z klovett quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-06-20T23:37:45Z turtleman quit (Client Quit) 2018-06-20T23:39:41Z turtleman_ joined #scheme 2018-06-20T23:40:57Z turtleman_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-06-20T23:42:42Z daviid joined #scheme 2018-06-20T23:43:31Z turtleman joined #scheme 2018-06-20T23:43:34Z turtleman quit (Client Quit) 2018-06-20T23:43:55Z turtleman joined #scheme 2018-06-20T23:44:16Z klovett joined #scheme 2018-06-20T23:46:47Z turtleman quit (Client Quit) 2018-06-20T23:56:01Z j3kyl_ joined #scheme 2018-06-21T00:02:45Z muelleme joined #scheme 2018-06-21T00:17:07Z muelleme quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-06-21T00:33:03Z zachk quit (Quit: Leaving) 2018-06-21T00:35:06Z turtleman_ joined #scheme 2018-06-21T00:42:07Z jcowan joined #scheme 2018-06-21T00:42:41Z jcowan quit (Client Quit) 2018-06-21T00:43:11Z jcowan joined #scheme 2018-06-21T00:51:20Z wigust- joined #scheme 2018-06-21T00:51:52Z dbmikus_ quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.1) 2018-06-21T00:53:51Z wigust quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-06-21T00:54:43Z turtleman_ quit (Quit: Leaving) 2018-06-21T00:59:22Z johnvonneumann joined #scheme 2018-06-21T00:59:45Z johnvonneumann is now known as Guest11899 2018-06-21T01:08:40Z erkin: I got stuck on this thing: I have a list of lists of strings and I want to find the maximums of the lengths of the lists' cars and cadrs. 2018-06-21T01:09:27Z lambda-11235 quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-06-21T01:09:39Z erkin: So (list-max '(("foo" "bar" ...) ("baz" "quux"))) -> (3 4) 2018-06-21T01:10:27Z j3kyl_` joined #scheme 2018-06-21T01:11:10Z rain1: (list-max x) would be defined as (map list-max-lengths x) 2018-06-21T01:11:24Z rain1: and (list-max-lengths '("foo" "bar" ...)) -> 3 2018-06-21T01:11:34Z rain1: (list-max-lengths '("baz" "quux")) -> 4 2018-06-21T01:11:40Z erkin: Oh hm 2018-06-21T01:11:46Z rain1: so the problem is broken down into a smaller problem 2018-06-21T01:11:46Z erkin: How would I splice them vertically like that? 2018-06-21T01:11:52Z j3kyl_ quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2018-06-21T01:12:12Z rain1: (list-max-lengths lst) would just be (maximum (map string-length lst)) 2018-06-21T01:12:40Z rain1: there's no splicing 2018-06-21T01:13:33Z muelleme joined #scheme 2018-06-21T01:13:50Z erkin: I mean, how do I go from '(("foo" "bar" ...) ("baz" "quux")) to '(("foo" "baz") ("bar" "quux"))? 2018-06-21T01:15:35Z erkin: (list (map car lst) (map cdr lst)) I'm guessing 2018-06-21T01:15:39Z erkin: cadr* 2018-06-21T01:15:53Z j3kyl_` quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 27.0.50)) 2018-06-21T01:16:11Z rain1: oh i didn't know you needed to do that 2018-06-21T01:16:46Z erkin: Oh wait 2018-06-21T01:16:49Z erkin: I think I misread you 2018-06-21T01:16:57Z rain1: (apply map list-max-lengths lists) 2018-06-21T01:16:58Z daviid: erkin: zip 2018-06-21T01:17:35Z erkin: Let me rephrase it 2018-06-21T01:18:04Z rain1: you can do it with apply map 2018-06-21T01:18:10Z muelleme quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2018-06-21T01:18:27Z daviid: (zip '(1 2 3) '(4 5 6)) 2018-06-21T01:18:28Z daviid: $6 = ((1 4) (2 5) (3 6)) 2018-06-21T01:18:29Z erkin: I've got a list of lists that each contain at least two strings. I need to get the maximum length of the cars and cdrs of all the sublists. 2018-06-21T01:18:36Z daviid: in srfi-1 2018-06-21T01:18:50Z daviid: I was answering the previous quiz :) 2018-06-21T01:19:23Z erkin: Convenient! 2018-06-21T01:19:35Z erkin: So hm 2018-06-21T01:19:48Z erkin: Something like apply map call-with-values lambda list? 2018-06-21T01:19:59Z rain1: no need for values 2018-06-21T01:20:16Z rain1: (apply map list-max-lengths lists) 2018-06-21T01:20:52Z Zipheir: Although the usual caveats about apply, uh, apply 2018-06-21T01:22:13Z rain1: (map list-max-lengths x) breaks it down horizontally, (apply map list-max-lengths x) breaks it down vertically 2018-06-21T01:22:53Z erkin: But I need both car and cadr. 2018-06-21T01:23:10Z rain1: why do you say "but" 2018-06-21T01:23:13Z rain1: did you try this and it didn't work? 2018-06-21T01:23:26Z erkin: Doesn't list-max-lengths return a number? 2018-06-21T01:24:09Z rain1: i take that as no i didn't try it :P 2018-06-21T01:24:16Z erkin: Haha 2018-06-21T01:24:22Z erkin: Okay let me try it 2018-06-21T01:24:24Z rain1: list-max-lengths does return a number 2018-06-21T01:24:44Z erkin: Oh I think I see what you mean now. 2018-06-21T01:26:09Z lambda-11235 joined #scheme 2018-06-21T01:29:21Z erkin: Okay so 2018-06-21T01:29:41Z Zipheir: Isn't it just (map (compose list-max-lengths car) ), (map (compose list-max-lengths cadr) ) ? 2018-06-21T01:29:46Z erkin: Simply enough (define (list-max-lengths lst) (apply max (map (string-length lst))) 2018-06-21T01:30:03Z erkin: Oh, I forgot about (compose) 2018-06-21T01:30:05Z erkin: Huh 2018-06-21T01:30:13Z rain1: (map (string-length lst))) should be (map string-length lst) 2018-06-21T01:30:53Z erkin: Ah, right. 2018-06-21T01:32:20Z Zipheir: Wait, sorry: (list-max-lengths (map car ...)) and (list-max-lengths (map cadr ...)) 2018-06-21T01:33:41Z rain1: that makes a version that only works on length 2 lists, the way I showed is general 2018-06-21T01:34:05Z Zipheir: rudybot: (fold (lambda (ys lng) (max (length ys) lng)) 0 (map car '(("foo" "bark") ("bing" "bazooka")))) 2018-06-21T01:34:13Z erkin: rain1: I'm still trying to understand yours. 2018-06-21T01:34:16Z rudybot: Zipheir: error: with-limit: out of time 2018-06-21T01:34:21Z Zipheir: oops 2018-06-21T01:34:31Z rain1: the key part is this 2018-06-21T01:34:33Z rain1: (map list-max-lengths x) breaks it down horizontally, (apply map list-max-lengths x) breaks it down vertically 2018-06-21T01:34:52Z erkin: But the latter complains about apply's argument count 2018-06-21T01:36:45Z Zipheir: Yeah, that doesn't work. 2018-06-21T01:38:13Z atlask joined #scheme 2018-06-21T01:41:04Z Zipheir: rudybot: (apply max (map (compose string-length car) '(("foo" "a") ("barkoe" "nth")))) 2018-06-21T01:41:08Z rudybot: Zipheir: your sandbox is ready 2018-06-21T01:41:08Z rudybot: Zipheir: ; Value: 6 2018-06-21T01:41:18Z Zipheir: (apply max (map (compose string-length cadr) '(("foo" "a") ("barkoe" "nth")))) 2018-06-21T01:41:53Z Zipheir: And that apply can easily be replaced with a fold. 2018-06-21T01:44:10Z brendyn joined #scheme 2018-06-21T01:44:25Z siiky: is it possible to get used to not having sections? 2018-06-21T01:45:58Z Zipheir: I guess. 2018-06-21T01:47:06Z Zipheir: After a while away from lisp, needing a lambda to section a procedure does start to look clunky. 2018-06-21T01:49:22Z siiky: yeah, right now its the only thing im not enjoying very much... its been a nice experience otherwise 2018-06-21T01:50:05Z Zipheir: Check out cut/cute for something akin to currying. 2018-06-21T01:50:42Z Zipheir: siiky: https://srfi.schemers.org/srfi-26/srfi-26.html 2018-06-21T01:54:00Z siiky: nice, ill put that on my notes! 2018-06-21T01:56:46Z erkin: I think I pulled it off. 2018-06-21T01:56:52Z erkin: Thanks rain1, Zipheir 2018-06-21T02:03:17Z robotoad quit (Quit: robotoad) 2018-06-21T02:09:56Z siiky quit (Quit: Leaving) 2018-06-21T02:16:49Z zooey_ joined #scheme 2018-06-21T02:18:17Z zooey quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2018-06-21T02:54:07Z excelsior joined #scheme 2018-06-21T02:57:57Z daviid quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2018-06-21T02:58:53Z Suika joined #scheme 2018-06-21T03:00:21Z klovett quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-06-21T03:00:22Z erkin quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-06-21T03:00:59Z robotoad joined #scheme 2018-06-21T03:01:08Z pierpa quit (Quit: Page closed) 2018-06-21T03:04:58Z muelleme joined #scheme 2018-06-21T03:11:31Z muelleme quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-06-21T03:14:15Z Suika quit (Quit: Ouch! 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ZZZzzz…) 2018-06-22T05:38:30Z smurfrobot quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-06-22T05:38:45Z smurfrobot joined #scheme 2018-06-22T05:44:26Z terpri quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-06-22T05:45:51Z Inline quit (Quit: Leaving) 2018-06-22T05:55:57Z muelleme joined #scheme 2018-06-22T05:59:52Z skapata quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-06-22T06:00:58Z werkin joined #scheme 2018-06-22T06:01:11Z muelleme quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-06-22T06:04:26Z smurfrobot quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-06-22T06:11:16Z smurfrobot joined #scheme 2018-06-22T06:12:33Z smurfrobot quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-06-22T06:17:22Z ecraven: hm.. would be nice if utf8->string took `start end' parameters :-/ 2018-06-22T06:21:17Z nikitou quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2018-06-22T06:28:05Z surya quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2018-06-22T06:28:11Z surya_ joined #scheme 2018-06-22T06:28:12Z pie__ quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2018-06-22T06:38:05Z lambda-11235 quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.1) 2018-06-22T06:45:14Z pie__ joined #scheme 2018-06-22T06:56:35Z Zipheir quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-06-22T07:03:23Z klovett joined #scheme 2018-06-22T07:09:02Z smurfrobot joined #scheme 2018-06-22T07:26:22Z klovett quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-06-22T07:41:33Z terpri joined #scheme 2018-06-22T07:45:57Z surya_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-06-22T07:48:19Z robotoad quit (Quit: robotoad) 2018-06-22T07:55:41Z civodul joined #scheme 2018-06-22T07:58:17Z robotoad joined #scheme 2018-06-22T08:06:43Z werkin quit (Quit: Leaving) 2018-06-22T08:12:05Z pie__ quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-06-22T08:24:00Z greatscottttt joined #scheme 2018-06-22T09:02:02Z nordstrom quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2018-06-22T09:05:06Z nordstrom joined #scheme 2018-06-22T09:05:29Z robotoad quit (Quit: robotoad) 2018-06-22T09:18:47Z vicenteH joined #scheme 2018-06-22T09:22:53Z klovett joined #scheme 2018-06-22T09:32:25Z ecraven: why does r7rs specify \| for escaping a vertical line? 2018-06-22T09:32:45Z ecraven: i.e. why is an escape necessary? 2018-06-22T09:33:44Z jao joined #scheme 2018-06-22T09:48:47Z klovett quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-06-22T10:10:02Z nilg joined #scheme 2018-06-22T10:13:35Z jcowan_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-06-22T10:20:46Z excelsior quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-06-22T10:21:15Z excelsior joined #scheme 2018-06-22T10:37:25Z excelsior quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-06-22T10:37:34Z excelsior joined #scheme 2018-06-22T10:49:57Z zooey_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-06-22T10:50:12Z zooey joined #scheme 2018-06-22T11:33:52Z wigust joined #scheme 2018-06-22T11:40:57Z aeth: ecraven: In CL, '|foo| is literal. In r7rs it might be like that, or they might allow other Schemes to do that if it isn't specified 2018-06-22T11:41:59Z aeth: e.g. in racket you can do this: (define |This is self-documenting.| "This is self-documenting.") 2018-06-22T11:42:34Z aeth: |This is self-documenting.| => "This is self-documenting." 2018-06-22T11:43:02Z aeth: Now you have a perfectly-descriptive variable name, using any string! (Perfect, except for the *variable* part.) 2018-06-22T11:43:43Z aeth: Probably a useless example, but it might be useful in e.g. implementing languages within the Lisp that have different variable name rules from the host Lisp. 2018-06-22T11:45:58Z klovett joined #scheme 2018-06-22T11:55:34Z werkin joined #scheme 2018-06-22T11:56:04Z muelleme joined #scheme 2018-06-22T11:59:58Z klovett quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2018-06-22T12:00:58Z muelleme quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-06-22T12:03:53Z dtornabene joined #scheme 2018-06-22T12:12:04Z ventonegro: I use symbol names enclosed in || in my code generator that writes Gambit 2018-06-22T12:12:17Z excelsior quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2018-06-22T12:12:40Z ventonegro: So I don't need to mangle the original variable names 2018-06-22T12:13:14Z excelsior joined #scheme 2018-06-22T12:29:18Z qu1j0t3: /b 40 2018-06-22T12:37:44Z Inline joined #scheme 2018-06-22T12:38:23Z j3kyl_ joined #scheme 2018-06-22T12:41:39Z smurfrobot quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-06-22T12:41:54Z smurfrobot joined #scheme 2018-06-22T12:49:21Z j3kyl_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-06-22T12:49:46Z j3kyl_ joined #scheme 2018-06-22T12:52:34Z smurfrobot quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-06-22T12:57:22Z TCZ joined #scheme 2018-06-22T13:06:15Z nivpgir joined #scheme 2018-06-22T13:12:07Z werkin quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2018-06-22T13:13:40Z klovett joined #scheme 2018-06-22T13:14:18Z klovett_ joined #scheme 2018-06-22T13:18:05Z klovett quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-06-22T13:18:06Z pigmentink joined #scheme 2018-06-22T13:18:25Z pigmentink: Hi Guys! Can someone help me understand a SICP exercise? 2018-06-22T13:19:09Z pigmentink: http://community.schemewiki.org/?sicp-ex-1.9 I'm just not getting a tiny step 2018-06-22T13:21:40Z TCZ quit (Quit: Leaving) 2018-06-22T13:25:47Z pigmentink: nevermind. Got it 2018-06-22T13:29:46Z werkin joined #scheme 2018-06-22T13:36:49Z smurfrobot joined #scheme 2018-06-22T13:41:45Z alezost joined #scheme 2018-06-22T13:44:50Z excelsior quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2018-06-22T13:45:56Z excelsior joined #scheme 2018-06-22T13:48:39Z smurfrobot quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-06-22T13:52:03Z pierpal joined #scheme 2018-06-22T13:55:58Z klovett_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-06-22T14:01:19Z theluke joined #scheme 2018-06-22T14:04:55Z jcowan joined #scheme 2018-06-22T14:05:29Z badkins joined #scheme 2018-06-22T14:05:37Z jcowan: ecraven: \| is necessary when escaping symbols, and we allowed it in strings for uniformity 2018-06-22T14:15:05Z jao quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-06-22T14:15:10Z ecraven: jcowan: ok, that kind of explains it ;) 2018-06-22T14:15:18Z ecraven: just started a PR for chez to add it, let's see how that goes 2018-06-22T14:25:56Z badkins quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-06-22T14:27:42Z klovett joined #scheme 2018-06-22T14:29:04Z klovett quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-06-22T14:29:23Z klovett joined #scheme 2018-06-22T14:30:01Z j3kyl_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-06-22T14:30:12Z klovett_ joined #scheme 2018-06-22T14:30:42Z vicenteH quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2018-06-22T14:31:13Z vicenteH joined #scheme 2018-06-22T14:33:14Z werkin quit (Quit: Leaving) 2018-06-22T14:33:57Z klovett quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-06-22T14:38:00Z smurfrobot joined #scheme 2018-06-22T14:41:52Z muelleme joined #scheme 2018-06-22T14:42:58Z smurfrobot quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-06-22T14:45:28Z klovett_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-06-22T14:46:44Z muelleme quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-06-22T14:51:01Z theluke quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-06-22T14:54:59Z excelsior quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-06-22T14:55:07Z excelsior joined #scheme 2018-06-22T14:55:43Z klovett joined #scheme 2018-06-22T14:56:18Z klovett_ joined #scheme 2018-06-22T15:00:27Z klovett quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-06-22T15:03:42Z jcowan quit (Quit: Leaving) 2018-06-22T15:04:36Z jcowan joined #scheme 2018-06-22T15:05:40Z nilg quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-06-22T15:11:40Z excelsior quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-06-22T15:11:59Z TheGreekOwl joined #scheme 2018-06-22T15:12:45Z edgar-rft joined #scheme 2018-06-22T15:18:16Z lambda-11235 joined #scheme 2018-06-22T15:19:24Z robotoad joined #scheme 2018-06-22T15:20:05Z tubuliferous joined #scheme 2018-06-22T15:22:44Z jao joined #scheme 2018-06-22T15:28:43Z smurfrobot joined #scheme 2018-06-22T15:31:25Z klovett joined #scheme 2018-06-22T15:32:46Z alezost quit (Quit: I live in GuixSD and Emacs ) 2018-06-22T15:34:51Z excelsior joined #scheme 2018-06-22T15:34:57Z klovett_ quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2018-06-22T15:35:13Z badkins joined #scheme 2018-06-22T15:35:47Z badkins_ joined #scheme 2018-06-22T15:39:27Z badkins quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-06-22T15:40:56Z badkins joined #scheme 2018-06-22T15:42:55Z pjb joined #scheme 2018-06-22T15:43:57Z badkins_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-06-22T15:45:12Z pigmentink_ joined #scheme 2018-06-22T15:45:29Z ManDay[m] left #scheme 2018-06-22T15:46:25Z smurfrobot quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-06-22T15:46:55Z lritter_ quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-06-22T15:48:03Z pigmentink quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-06-22T15:48:14Z vicenteH quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2018-06-22T15:49:03Z klovett quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-06-22T15:50:39Z dtornabene quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-06-22T15:51:09Z dtornabene joined #scheme 2018-06-22T15:53:45Z dtornabene_ joined #scheme 2018-06-22T15:53:46Z dtornabene quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2018-06-22T15:56:35Z tubuliferous quit (Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com) 2018-06-22T16:01:05Z brendyn quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2018-06-22T16:01:13Z greatscottttt quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.9) 2018-06-22T16:01:40Z dtornabene_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-06-22T16:02:04Z dtornabene_ joined #scheme 2018-06-22T16:07:40Z klovett joined #scheme 2018-06-22T16:11:52Z Fare joined #scheme 2018-06-22T16:18:59Z jcowan_ joined #scheme 2018-06-22T16:20:22Z skapata joined #scheme 2018-06-22T16:21:27Z jcowan quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-06-22T16:28:28Z j3kyl_ joined #scheme 2018-06-22T16:40:43Z civodul quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 26.1)) 2018-06-22T16:41:32Z theluke joined #scheme 2018-06-22T16:42:03Z pigmentink_: Guy is possible to zoom in on EDWIN? 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Got SIGIRL, dying...) 2018-06-22T17:08:37Z InPhase: Can someone point me to a summary description that spells out the debate over R6RS, why some scheme implementations have avoided it, and what differs with R7RS that is found more palatable? 2018-06-22T17:09:37Z InPhase: I've been having trouble finding a working link that spells out the issues people are finding important about this. 2018-06-22T17:10:42Z pie__ joined #scheme 2018-06-22T17:13:22Z excelsior quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-06-22T17:13:44Z excelsior joined #scheme 2018-06-22T17:13:46Z wasamasa: InPhase: it's complexity mostly 2018-06-22T17:14:07Z wasamasa: InPhase: implementing r6rs introduces far greater challenges than it's worth, r7rs strikes a good compromise between r5rs and r6rs 2018-06-22T17:14:43Z InPhase: I've heard that sort of statement, but I can't find details about what this is actually referring to. 2018-06-22T17:15:03Z wasamasa: have you actually looked at the documents? 2018-06-22T17:15:38Z wasamasa: for instance, compare syntax-case (r6rs) to syntax-rules (r5rs) from the implementer and user perspective 2018-06-22T17:15:58Z InPhase: Being relatively new to scheme I'm not sure that I would be able to extract this information for myself from a 90 page document, so I have not tried. 2018-06-22T17:16:21Z InPhase: So I'm trying to find an overview of the most important problems to get a sense for what the divide is about. 2018-06-22T17:16:27Z pie__ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-06-22T17:19:04Z wasamasa: try the toc of each document 2018-06-22T17:19:12Z wasamasa: or in the case of r6rs, the four documents 2018-06-22T17:19:44Z weinholt: InPhase, i'll try to write up something sensible for you later today, i think it's an interesting topic 2018-06-22T17:20:29Z InPhase: weinholt: I'll look forward to reading it. 2018-06-22T17:21:57Z InPhase: wasamasa: I see very similar things, although the r6rs.pdf I'm looking at has more toc entries. 2018-06-22T17:23:13Z akkad joined #scheme 2018-06-22T17:24:18Z InPhase: My perspective is wading new into the scheme field and wanting to adopt the most recent and broadly used standards. But that seems quite challenging with this divide of opinions that I'm not understanding the details of. 2018-06-22T17:24:42Z wasamasa: lol, broadly used 2018-06-22T17:26:42Z Fare joined #scheme 2018-06-22T17:26:57Z smurfrobot joined #scheme 2018-06-22T17:30:03Z nilg joined #scheme 2018-06-22T17:33:25Z badkins quit 2018-06-22T17:36:07Z X-Scale: InPhase: maybe start by reading R5RS (only 50 pages) -> http://www.schemers.org/Documents/Standards/R5RS/r5rs.pdf 2018-06-22T17:39:37Z theluke: I'm bored, what are some good channels for off-topic ramble 2018-06-22T17:43:25Z taylan joined #scheme 2018-06-22T17:43:32Z Fare quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-06-22T17:54:03Z klovett quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-06-22T17:56:05Z sz0 joined #scheme 2018-06-22T18:00:35Z klovett joined #scheme 2018-06-22T18:04:00Z Fare joined #scheme 2018-06-22T18:07:11Z muelleme joined #scheme 2018-06-22T18:10:53Z theluke: hah 2018-06-22T18:11:36Z Inline: #offtopic ? 2018-06-22T18:11:42Z Inline: no idea rly 2018-06-22T18:12:34Z theluke: Inline: you must be very productive then lol 2018-06-22T18:13:35Z Inline: no 2018-06-22T18:13:38Z Inline: i'm ill 2018-06-22T18:13:41Z badkins joined #scheme 2018-06-22T18:13:42Z theluke: oh 2018-06-22T18:15:08Z Inline: lower abdominal pains or higher abdominal pains (depends on the day i think), extreme degassing, cold like symptoms and affective belly (from cold, even in summer), and hemorrhoids..... 2018-06-22T18:15:11Z Inline: it sucks totally 2018-06-22T18:15:27Z muelleme quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-06-22T18:15:35Z Inline: it got better but it's still not over 2018-06-22T18:15:37Z theluke: it's chronic? 2018-06-22T18:15:47Z Inline: some herbs do good, like some different teas 2018-06-22T18:15:53Z Inline: it's chronic yes 2018-06-22T18:15:59Z theluke: Darn :/ 2018-06-22T18:16:09Z Inline: well, it really got better to some point but 2018-06-22T18:16:35Z Inline: alas it's not over, and i'm not sure if the susceptibility to cold will ever go away 2018-06-22T18:16:53Z theluke: Oh, you have immunodeficiency as well? 2018-06-22T18:17:17Z theluke: Sounds scary 2018-06-22T18:17:31Z Inline: i take some probiotics too from time to time or some algae and/or some fungus 2018-06-22T18:17:56Z Inline: i'm not sure on the deficient part 2018-06-22T18:17:58Z theluke: Inline: wait, so this channel is okay to talk about offtopic stuff? 2018-06-22T18:18:01Z Inline: it's more like overreacting 2018-06-22T18:18:03Z Inline: i suppose 2018-06-22T18:18:14Z Inline: i don't think so theluke 2018-06-22T18:18:25Z Inline: it's just nobody reminded us until now 2018-06-22T18:18:31Z theluke: Inline: well, if you get flu often, it's suggestive 2018-06-22T18:18:32Z siiky joined #scheme 2018-06-22T18:18:54Z Inline: no, it's more like some kinda inner rash, if you know what i mean 2018-06-22T18:19:03Z Inline: the cold is a trigger tho 2018-06-22T18:19:22Z theluke: I'm not a doctor, won't try to guess what it might be 2018-06-22T18:19:30Z theluke: Inline: how many doctors' opinions have you gotten? 2018-06-22T18:19:46Z Inline: i once went to a phlebolog to cure the accute phase 2018-06-22T18:19:59Z Inline: twice or thrice, and it really helped but it's not a solution 2018-06-22T18:20:05Z klovett quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-06-22T18:20:30Z Inline: theluke: it's different stuff mixed together, i had a stomach infection with h.pylori too at some point 2018-06-22T18:20:44Z Inline: theluke: that one is cured i think, at least the acute phase 2018-06-22T18:20:53Z theluke: sounds like... it might be autoimmune 2018-06-22T18:20:57Z Inline: jep 2018-06-22T18:21:36Z theluke: If I was smarter, i'd have gone to a medical school, but I'm not cut out for this, so... Everything I say is recreational, don't get scared by my ramblings, Inline 2018-06-22T18:21:48Z Inline: no problem 2018-06-22T18:22:27Z Inline: i will go to a doctor, in a few months i think 2018-06-22T18:22:33Z Inline: first i have to fix the teeth of my mom 2018-06-22T18:22:38Z Inline: she needs teeth 2018-06-22T18:22:53Z Inline: she can't chew, i can get her teeth done in turkey 2018-06-22T18:22:57Z Fare quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2018-06-22T18:23:04Z Inline: i can't cook anything because of her 2018-06-22T18:23:14Z Inline: not that she really eats what i cook but anyway 2018-06-22T18:23:37Z Fare joined #scheme 2018-06-22T18:24:14Z theluke: Oh, darn :/ 2018-06-22T18:29:40Z dbmikus joined #scheme 2018-06-22T18:35:13Z klovett joined #scheme 2018-06-22T18:43:48Z pie__ joined #scheme 2018-06-22T18:43:55Z pie__ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-06-22T18:48:01Z excelsior quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-06-22T18:51:43Z dtornabene_ quit (Quit: Leaving) 2018-06-22T19:05:09Z dbmikus quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-06-22T19:05:23Z dbmikus_ joined #scheme 2018-06-22T19:10:30Z hugh_marera joined #scheme 2018-06-22T19:12:37Z klovett quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-06-22T19:19:59Z Fare quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-06-22T19:21:19Z klovett joined #scheme 2018-06-22T19:32:46Z civodul joined #scheme 2018-06-22T19:36:38Z pierpal quit (Quit: Poof) 2018-06-22T19:36:57Z pierpal joined #scheme 2018-06-22T19:37:27Z daviid joined #scheme 2018-06-22T19:44:16Z Fare joined #scheme 2018-06-22T19:51:53Z pierpal quit (Quit: Poof) 2018-06-22T19:52:14Z pierpal joined #scheme 2018-06-22T19:52:33Z Fare quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-06-22T19:56:15Z akkad quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-06-22T19:59:21Z nullcone joined #scheme 2018-06-22T20:00:39Z j3kyl_ joined #scheme 2018-06-22T20:03:30Z lambda-11235 quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.1) 2018-06-22T20:03:36Z thevishy joined #scheme 2018-06-22T20:03:38Z j3kyl_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-06-22T20:05:47Z badkins quit 2018-06-22T20:07:29Z sz0 quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2018-06-22T20:08:37Z pierpa joined #scheme 2018-06-22T20:13:35Z pie_ joined #scheme 2018-06-22T20:16:21Z zachk joined #scheme 2018-06-22T20:17:05Z zachk quit (Changing host) 2018-06-22T20:17:05Z zachk joined #scheme 2018-06-22T20:19:22Z taylan quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-06-22T20:22:13Z taylan joined #scheme 2018-06-22T20:26:57Z jcob quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-06-22T20:27:42Z dbmikus_ quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.1) 2018-06-22T20:28:19Z dbmikus joined #scheme 2018-06-22T20:31:36Z wigust quit (Quit: ZNC 1.7.0 - https://znc.in) 2018-06-22T20:35:48Z Guest47607 quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-06-22T20:37:32Z johnvonneumann joined #scheme 2018-06-22T20:37:55Z johnvonneumann is now known as Guest4111 2018-06-22T20:44:03Z pigmentink_ quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-06-22T20:55:59Z johnvonneumann_ joined #scheme 2018-06-22T20:56:27Z Guest4111 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-06-22T21:08:15Z muelleme joined #scheme 2018-06-22T21:13:33Z muelleme quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-06-22T21:15:37Z pigmentink joined #scheme 2018-06-22T21:16:03Z pigmentink quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-06-22T21:23:05Z theluke quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.1) 2018-06-22T21:51:13Z brettgilio joined #scheme 2018-06-22T21:53:01Z brettgilio: Hello, fellow Schemers. 2018-06-22T21:53:45Z dbmikus quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-06-22T22:03:57Z taylan left #scheme 2018-06-22T22:18:14Z hive-mind quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-06-22T22:19:43Z brettgilio quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-06-22T22:21:05Z thevishy quit (Quit: thevishy) 2018-06-22T22:39:47Z bor0 joined #scheme 2018-06-22T22:40:10Z bor0: in Racket, I have a serializable-struct and I want to take the sha256 of it. however, sha256 accepts only bytes. what's the best way to approach this? I tried to use (~a (serialize mystruct)) but not sure that's the best way 2018-06-22T22:40:35Z jcowan joined #scheme 2018-06-22T22:46:36Z Menche quit (Quit: Leaving) 2018-06-22T22:48:17Z klovett quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-06-22T22:52:10Z dbmikus joined #scheme 2018-06-22T22:52:54Z bor0 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2018-06-22T23:04:20Z bor0 joined #scheme 2018-06-22T23:05:13Z bor0: my connection dropped and I'm not sure if I got any answers, but my question is: what's the best way to serialize a racket (serializable-)struct to a string and vice-versa? the struct contains only primitive types of data (bytes, numbers, etc) 2018-06-22T23:07:18Z bor0 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2018-06-22T23:10:46Z robotoad quit (Quit: robotoad) 2018-06-22T23:12:54Z weinholt: InPhase, https://weinholt.se/articles/r7rs-vs-r6rs/ hope that it helps. now i'm off to bed 2018-06-22T23:13:01Z civodul quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 26.1)) 2018-06-22T23:28:13Z klovett joined #scheme 2018-06-22T23:36:00Z dbmikus quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-06-22T23:45:11Z klovett quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-06-23T00:02:01Z klovett joined #scheme 2018-06-23T00:13:42Z hive-mind joined #scheme 2018-06-23T00:23:55Z johnvonneumann_ quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-06-23T00:29:23Z johnvonneumann joined #scheme 2018-06-23T00:29:46Z johnvonneumann is now known as Guest78695 2018-06-23T00:37:30Z atlask joined #scheme 2018-06-23T00:39:06Z nullcone quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2018-06-23T00:40:32Z pie_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2018-06-23T00:40:45Z pie_ joined #scheme 2018-06-23T00:42:24Z pie__ joined #scheme 2018-06-23T00:43:17Z pie_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2018-06-23T00:47:24Z daviid quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-06-23T00:48:13Z longshi joined #scheme 2018-06-23T00:49:05Z pie__ quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2018-06-23T00:50:49Z siiky quit (Quit: Leaving) 2018-06-23T00:51:53Z atlask quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2018-06-23T00:54:14Z nivpgir quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2018-06-23T01:00:53Z erratic joined #scheme 2018-06-23T01:06:55Z zachk quit (Quit: Leaving) 2018-06-23T01:11:16Z j3kyl_ joined #scheme 2018-06-23T01:20:19Z klovett quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-06-23T01:25:11Z j3kyl_` joined #scheme 2018-06-23T01:29:20Z j3kyl_ quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-06-23T01:30:32Z daviid joined #scheme 2018-06-23T01:50:29Z longshi quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.1) 2018-06-23T01:53:51Z pie_ joined #scheme 2018-06-23T01:56:16Z klovett joined #scheme 2018-06-23T02:03:14Z Menche joined #scheme 2018-06-23T02:08:27Z klovett quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-06-23T02:23:18Z atlask joined #scheme 2018-06-23T02:25:53Z pierpa quit (Quit: Page closed) 2018-06-23T02:27:12Z atlask quit (Client Quit) 2018-06-23T02:27:54Z atlask joined #scheme 2018-06-23T02:33:57Z brendyn joined #scheme 2018-06-23T02:34:56Z Menche_ joined #scheme 2018-06-23T02:36:06Z robotoad joined #scheme 2018-06-23T02:37:33Z Menche quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-06-23T02:47:27Z pie_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-06-23T02:47:46Z pie_ joined #scheme 2018-06-23T02:49:51Z jao quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-06-23T02:50:52Z pierpal quit (Quit: Poof) 2018-06-23T02:51:09Z pierpal joined #scheme 2018-06-23T03:06:29Z Menche__ joined #scheme 2018-06-23T03:08:49Z Menche_ quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2018-06-23T03:13:01Z Menche__ is now known as Menche 2018-06-23T03:22:26Z xlei joined #scheme 2018-06-23T03:23:01Z atlask quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.1) 2018-06-23T03:29:50Z skapata quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-06-23T03:34:34Z daviid quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-06-23T03:37:58Z Menche_ joined #scheme 2018-06-23T03:41:00Z Menche quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2018-06-23T04:02:48Z brettgilio joined #scheme 2018-06-23T04:03:12Z brettgilio: How active is this group? 2018-06-23T04:05:58Z X-Scale: Hello, brettgilio 2018-06-23T04:06:34Z X-Scale: It depends on the questions 2018-06-23T04:06:49Z X-Scale: Usually you just ask something and wait for someone to answer it 2018-06-23T04:09:30Z Menche__ joined #scheme 2018-06-23T04:11:34Z Menche__ is now known as Menche 2018-06-23T04:12:17Z Menche_ quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-06-23T04:13:16Z brettgilio: X-Scale: Thank you. I look forward to being around here. 2018-06-23T04:13:50Z brettgilio left #scheme 2018-06-23T04:14:50Z brettgilio joined #scheme 2018-06-23T04:29:46Z jcowan quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-06-23T04:30:14Z jcowan joined #scheme 2018-06-23T04:40:59Z Menche_ joined #scheme 2018-06-23T04:43:05Z Menche quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-06-23T05:02:49Z akkad joined #scheme 2018-06-23T05:04:13Z klovett joined #scheme 2018-06-23T05:04:57Z klovett quit (Client Quit) 2018-06-23T05:05:17Z InPhase: weinholt: Thanks, that's an excellently written summary, and clarifies for me the major philosophical divides that caused these two different versions. 2018-06-23T05:05:44Z ecraven: InPhase: in many cases, R6RS prescribes some behaviour and forbids anything else, while R7RS often takes the stance of "this should work, but variants, additional arguments etc. are also fine". That's what I've heard 2018-06-23T05:06:10Z ecraven: so to conform to r6rs there's a lot of things you are not allowed to do, while r7rs is mostly about what you should do 2018-06-23T05:06:57Z InPhase: It also looks like no one involved in r6rs was involved in r7rs. Is this actually likely to be a successor, or is this more of a fork? 2018-06-23T05:07:32Z ecraven: InPhase: r7rs is more of a successor to r5rs in spirit 2018-06-23T05:08:10Z ecraven: or to be more exact: r7rs-small is a successor to r5rs. r7rs-large will be a successor to r6rs and more 2018-06-23T05:11:00Z gwatt: well, maybe 2018-06-23T05:11:07Z lritter_ joined #scheme 2018-06-23T05:12:30Z Menche__ joined #scheme 2018-06-23T05:15:21Z Menche_ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-06-23T05:18:26Z InPhase: Is r7rs-large expected to be a superset of r7rs-small? 2018-06-23T05:36:52Z brettgilio quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-06-23T05:48:31Z jcowan: InPhase: I personally guarantee it will be. :-) 2018-06-23T05:49:06Z jcowan: In fact, Will Clinger has been involved in R5, R6, and R7, though he took his name off the R6 document because he didn't like the way it went. 2018-06-23T05:50:01Z jcowan: There are many R6 features that were incorporated in R7-small, but there was no requirement for compatibility 2018-06-23T05:50:23Z InPhase: Would a typical r6 program be expected to run in r7-large? 2018-06-23T05:50:56Z jcowan: No, because the library structure is different 2018-06-23T05:51:54Z jcowan: but I expect that almost all of the general features of R6 will be in R7-large, plus a great deal more 2018-06-23T05:52:20Z jcowan: There are two good papers in R6-R7 interoperability 2018-06-23T05:53:05Z jcowan: http://andykeep.com/SchemeWorkshop2015/papers/sfpw1-2015-clinger.pdf <-- "R7RS Considered Unifier of Previous Standards" 2018-06-23T05:55:20Z jcowan: http://www.schemeworkshop.org/2014/papers/Kato2014.pdf <-- "Implementing R7RS on an R6RS Scheme system" 2018-06-23T05:55:59Z muelleme joined #scheme 2018-06-23T05:59:06Z j3kyl_` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-06-23T06:01:33Z muelleme quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-06-23T06:13:18Z klovett joined #scheme 2018-06-23T06:14:06Z Menche__ quit (Quit: Leaving) 2018-06-23T06:19:58Z smurfrobot quit 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2018-06-24T12:38:00Z lockywolf joined #scheme 2018-06-24T12:39:43Z wasamasa: something? 2018-06-24T12:40:30Z Torondo: no actually 2018-06-24T12:40:47Z wasamasa: it's hard to construct full sentences 2018-06-24T12:40:59Z Torondo: sorry, where are you? 2018-06-24T12:41:09Z wasamasa: I am in #scheme 2018-06-24T12:42:02Z Torondo: i just learned scheme for 1 week, and i like it. 2018-06-24T12:42:59Z Yaargh: I am in #scheme also 2018-06-24T12:43:33Z Torondo: we are at the same place! 2018-06-24T12:45:10Z Torondo: i like r5rs so much because of it's neat 2018-06-24T12:48:45Z pierpal quit (Quit: Poof) 2018-06-24T12:49:03Z pierpal joined #scheme 2018-06-24T12:49:04Z excelsior joined #scheme 2018-06-24T12:49:20Z Torondo: bye guys 2018-06-24T12:49:37Z Torondo quit (Quit: Going offline, see ya! (www.adiirc.com)) 2018-06-24T12:49:47Z wasamasa: people these days are so impatient 2018-06-24T13:12:02Z Menche joined #scheme 2018-06-24T13:19:36Z atlask joined #scheme 2018-06-24T13:20:39Z jao joined #scheme 2018-06-24T13:29:48Z edgar-rft quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-06-24T13:30:21Z pierpal quit (Quit: Poof) 2018-06-24T13:30:43Z pierpal joined #scheme 2018-06-24T13:46:11Z Menche quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2018-06-24T13:47:01Z atlask quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.1) 2018-06-24T13:49:13Z pjb joined #scheme 2018-06-24T13:49:21Z pjb is now known as Guest23876 2018-06-24T13:50:29Z Guest23876 is now known as pjb` 2018-06-24T13:50:49Z pjb` is now known as pjb 2018-06-24T13:50:57Z klovett quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-06-24T13:51:06Z klovett joined #scheme 2018-06-24T13:54:16Z TheGreekOwl quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-06-24T14:00:38Z lockywolf quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2018-06-24T14:03:13Z excelsior quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-06-24T14:03:24Z excelsior joined #scheme 2018-06-24T14:31:58Z kuribas joined #scheme 2018-06-24T14:34:03Z siiky joined #scheme 2018-06-24T14:36:28Z Menche joined #scheme 2018-06-24T14:45:56Z alezost joined #scheme 2018-06-24T15:08:35Z Menche quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2018-06-24T15:13:45Z ecraven: why is there read-error?, but not write-error? 2018-06-24T15:14:35Z kuribas: isn't common lisp primitive compared to scheme? 2018-06-24T15:15:04Z wasamasa mourns the death of the fine art of trolling 2018-06-24T15:16:07Z alezost quit (Quit: I live in GuixSD and Emacs ) 2018-06-24T15:16:20Z gwatt: ecraven: is that in r7rs? 2018-06-24T15:16:29Z wasamasa: ecraven: read-error is about `read', not reading files 2018-06-24T15:17:02Z wasamasa: ecraven: if reading files goes wrong, expect a file-error 2018-06-24T15:17:10Z wasamasa: gwatt: yup 2018-06-24T15:17:12Z ecraven: ah, thanks, my fault for not looking closely enaugh 2018-06-24T15:28:46Z vicenteH quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2018-06-24T15:29:18Z vicenteH joined #scheme 2018-06-24T15:33:52Z hugh_marera quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2018-06-24T15:34:15Z hugh_marera joined #scheme 2018-06-24T15:35:50Z hugh_marera quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2018-06-24T15:38:33Z hugh_marera joined #scheme 2018-06-24T15:45:12Z hugh_marera quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2018-06-24T15:46:54Z hugh_marera joined #scheme 2018-06-24T15:57:47Z cortisol joined #scheme 2018-06-24T16:01:28Z atlask joined #scheme 2018-06-24T16:03:22Z pie_ joined #scheme 2018-06-24T16:09:50Z excelsior quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-06-24T16:10:34Z excelsior joined #scheme 2018-06-24T16:14:57Z kuribas quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 24.5.1)) 2018-06-24T16:18:52Z cortisol quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2018-06-24T16:18:57Z excelsior quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-06-24T16:20:43Z cortisol joined #scheme 2018-06-24T16:21:52Z amz3: here's my hack of the week end 2018-06-24T16:21:55Z amz3: https://amirouche.github.io/zombie/ 2018-06-24T16:22:36Z amz3: well it took more than a week end, but at least right now it has the barebone feature of generating html from skribe syntax (à la guile) 2018-06-24T16:22:50Z amz3: direct link to the code https://github.com/amirouche/zombie 2018-06-24T16:23:21Z amz3: it features a combinator library and stream library that is fast 2018-06-24T16:23:48Z amz3: I shall now think about to wire everything into a weblog thingy 2018-06-24T16:23:52Z X-Scale: wasamasa: how should errors of "(write obj port)" be signalled ? 2018-06-24T16:24:28Z wasamasa: that's up to the implementation 2018-06-24T16:24:43Z wasamasa: if you go strictly by r7rs, they aren't signalled at all 2018-06-24T16:25:42Z excelsior joined #scheme 2018-06-24T16:27:21Z lambda-11235 joined #scheme 2018-06-24T16:29:59Z atlask quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2018-06-24T16:41:42Z hugh_marera quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2018-06-24T16:42:00Z Zipheir: amz3: When I read 'zombie blog generator', I thought of a program to generate hundreds of zero-comment posts from 5 years ago... 2018-06-24T16:42:11Z Zipheir: amz3: Looks interesting. 2018-06-24T16:42:15Z hugh_marera joined #scheme 2018-06-24T16:49:50Z amz3: Zipheir: zero comments or more ;) 2018-06-24T16:50:26Z amz3: Zipheir: I think it's a long shot for me to generate pseudo random text, but I had the same idea 2018-06-24T16:53:00Z amz3: right now what it does it take some skribe expression and render some html with it based on a template 2018-06-24T16:53:22Z amz3: skirbe syntax look like the follow: (p [Héllo ,(b [world])]) 2018-06-24T16:53:47Z amz3: it's one step better to write html in skribe than in vanilla sexp 2018-06-24T16:54:09Z wasamasa: but what about attributes? 2018-06-24T16:54:47Z amz3: attribute example: (p (@ (id "title")) [Héllo ,(b [world])]) 2018-06-24T16:54:56Z wasamasa: meh 2018-06-24T16:57:04Z amz3: that's guile sxml syntax, except it use square bracket to delimit text and comma to escape the text 2018-06-24T16:57:24Z wasamasa: what's the point of deviating from it? 2018-06-24T16:58:58Z amz3: the point is that vanilla scheme expression don't feel like html here is the equivalent of sxml use scheme expression: (p (@ (id "title")) "Héllo " (b "world")) 2018-06-24T16:59:27Z amz3: you see the space after `Héllo' skribe syntax avoids that 2018-06-24T17:00:03Z amz3: like I said, it's minor annoyance but that comes back very often when you write html in sexp 2018-06-24T17:00:57Z cortisol quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-06-24T17:02:13Z jcowan: wasamasa: No, what r7rs (as well as r5rs) says is that it "is an error", which is how we spell "undefined behavior". It can signal an error (as most Schemes do), silently do nothing, crash the program, or make demons fly out of your nose 2018-06-24T17:02:33Z amz3: of course you don't use `b' often in html but you do use `a' 2018-06-24T17:03:27Z wasamasa: jcowan: it only mentions closed ports as a possible write error 2018-06-24T17:03:49Z jcowan: That doesn't mean there are no others 2018-06-24T17:03:51Z ecraven: I really hope skribe syntax makes a comeback, I'd love it for documentation, html generation, lots of things really 2018-06-24T17:04:03Z wasamasa: jcowan: you're free to interpret it as such 2018-06-24T17:04:03Z ecraven: but no way to portably implement it, short of a custom reader 2018-06-24T17:04:38Z erkin joined #scheme 2018-06-24T17:08:55Z hugh_marera quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2018-06-24T17:09:18Z hugh_marera joined #scheme 2018-06-24T17:10:45Z atlask joined #scheme 2018-06-24T17:10:56Z groovy2shoes quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2018-06-24T17:16:36Z Menche joined #scheme 2018-06-24T17:17:51Z cortisol joined #scheme 2018-06-24T17:19:06Z j3kyl_ joined #scheme 2018-06-24T17:23:59Z erkin quit (Quit: Ouch! 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The existence of undefined behavior that a programmer can hit by accident has been a serious problem in every language that has such. 2018-06-24T17:46:42Z jcowan: It hasn't, as a matter of historical fact. 2018-06-24T17:47:06Z jcowan: It can be when compiler writers optimize nothing but speed, speed, and more speed, as is the case for C/C++. 2018-06-24T17:47:18Z InPhase: The vast majority of security bugs come down to undefined behavior. 2018-06-24T17:47:57Z jcowan: Rather, to the exploitation of undefined behavior. C compilers could be just as safe as Scheme compilers if people wanted to write such compilers. But they'd be slower, and so there is no market for them. 2018-06-24T17:49:27Z Menche quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2018-06-24T17:50:03Z InPhase: Well, when I program libraries, I can't depend on a compiler to save me from undefined behavior if I'm writing to a particular language rather than to run on just one system. 2018-06-24T17:50:06Z gwatt: I don't know about that. 2018-06-24T17:50:32Z gwatt: I've seen plenty of griping about unreliability of C compilers on kernel/os mailing lists 2018-06-24T17:51:02Z muelleme joined #scheme 2018-06-24T17:52:53Z InPhase: The general consensus in both the C and C++ communities is that it is the programmer's responsibility to never implement undefined behavior. But because it exists in the language, libraries often end up implementing interfaces that pass undefined behavior on up the chain to top level programmers, since undefined behavior becomes part of the API. Then undefined behavior ends up exposed to users under 2018-06-24T17:52:59Z InPhase: various program states, and serious reliability problems arise. 2018-06-24T17:53:06Z groovy2shoes joined #scheme 2018-06-24T17:58:36Z alezost joined #scheme 2018-06-24T18:08:48Z amz3: hmm 2018-06-24T18:11:27Z muelleme quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-06-24T18:13:30Z cortisol quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2018-06-24T18:16:23Z robotoad joined #scheme 2018-06-24T18:18:52Z amz3: I promise I won't code undefined behavior 2018-06-24T18:19:04Z amz3: I feel like a script kid 2018-06-24T18:20:14Z cortisol joined #scheme 2018-06-24T18:21:43Z pierpal quit (Quit: Poof) 2018-06-24T18:22:01Z pierpal joined #scheme 2018-06-24T18:22:46Z siiky quit (Quit: Leaving) 2018-06-24T18:33:37Z muelleme joined #scheme 2018-06-24T18:38:36Z lritter joined #scheme 2018-06-24T18:41:49Z jcob joined #scheme 2018-06-24T18:45:41Z daviid joined #scheme 2018-06-24T18:49:45Z muelleme quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-06-24T18:50:39Z muelleme joined #scheme 2018-06-24T18:52:05Z cortisol quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-06-24T18:54:33Z pierpal quit (Quit: Poof) 2018-06-24T18:54:49Z pierpal joined #scheme 2018-06-24T19:04:07Z Menche joined #scheme 2018-06-24T19:05:03Z jao quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-06-24T19:05:29Z pierpal quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2018-06-24T19:05:40Z pierpal joined #scheme 2018-06-24T19:12:35Z pierpal quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-06-24T19:22:41Z j3kyl_ joined #scheme 2018-06-24T19:33:57Z muelleme quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-06-24T19:36:47Z Menche quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-06-24T19:43:54Z jcob quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2018-06-24T19:46:14Z Menche joined #scheme 2018-06-24T19:47:22Z civodul joined #scheme 2018-06-24T19:49:49Z j3kyl_ quit (Read error: No route to host) 2018-06-24T19:50:30Z TheGreekOwl joined #scheme 2018-06-24T19:58:36Z pierpal joined #scheme 2018-06-24T20:05:52Z matijja joined #scheme 2018-06-24T20:08:26Z groovy2shoes quit (Quit: moritura te salutat) 2018-06-24T20:14:14Z atlask quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2018-06-24T20:16:05Z skapata quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-06-24T20:19:10Z TheGreekOwl quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-06-24T20:19:13Z Menche quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2018-06-24T20:20:33Z klovett_ joined #scheme 2018-06-24T20:20:59Z alezost quit (Quit: I live in GuixSD and Emacs ) 2018-06-24T20:24:14Z klovett quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2018-06-24T20:29:54Z muelleme joined #scheme 2018-06-24T20:34:43Z muelleme quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2018-06-24T20:35:13Z matijja quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2018-06-24T20:41:57Z lritter quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-06-24T20:49:08Z nilg joined #scheme 2018-06-24T20:52:14Z TheGreekOwl joined #scheme 2018-06-24T21:01:37Z Menche joined #scheme 2018-06-24T21:06:56Z light2yellow quit (Quit: light2yellow) 2018-06-24T21:13:37Z ineiros quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2018-06-24T21:14:28Z ineiros joined #scheme 2018-06-24T21:20:21Z ineiros quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2018-06-24T21:21:55Z klovett_ quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2018-06-24T21:25:54Z jao joined #scheme 2018-06-24T21:26:02Z erkin quit (Quit: Ouch! 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2018-06-25T06:06:01Z amz3: I had a look at markov chain library in python, it doesn't seem difficult to replicate per se 2018-06-25T06:06:28Z amz3: even if I don't understand the theory behind it 2018-06-25T06:07:07Z amz3: here the build method that will... build the markov chain model https://github.com/jsvine/markovify/blob/master/markovify/chain.py#L47 2018-06-25T06:07:41Z amz3: and here is the 'generator' method called 'move' and called by 'gen' just below https://github.com/jsvine/markovify/blob/master/markovify/chain.py#L85 2018-06-25T06:08:11Z amz3: that will generate sentences 2018-06-25T06:08:48Z dmiles joined #scheme 2018-06-25T06:18:11Z jeapostrophe47 quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2018-06-25T06:19:26Z pie_ joined #scheme 2018-06-25T06:22:27Z lambda-11235 joined #scheme 2018-06-25T06:24:59Z lambda-11235 quit (Client Quit) 2018-06-25T06:28:31Z terpri quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-06-25T06:32:06Z muelleme joined #scheme 2018-06-25T06:40:33Z pie_ quit (Ping timeout: 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you! 2018-06-25T12:47:15Z ecraven: looking for one for MIT/GNU Scheme, I'll try that one 2018-06-25T12:51:06Z ecraven: ok, that implementation does not work on mit, I'll try to rewrite it ;) 2018-06-25T12:51:29Z mejja joined #scheme 2018-06-25T12:56:59Z mejja: ecraven, upgrade! 2018-06-25T12:58:52Z ecraven: mejja: can't too much code that would break :-/ 2018-06-25T12:59:04Z ecraven: but I really need to check what actually breaks and how I can fix it 2018-06-25T12:59:20Z ecraven: I wonder whether http-get got fixed, that was totally broken when last I checked 2018-06-25T13:01:53Z ecraven: mejja: any eta on next release? 2018-06-25T13:02:21Z mejja: ecraven, blame Riastradh, the http client is his baby, right? 2018-06-25T13:02:48Z ecraven: not sure. the problem is different port types returning characters vs. bytevectors 2018-06-25T13:02:51Z ecraven: but that might be fixed 2018-06-25T13:11:10Z pierpal quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-06-25T13:13:30Z ecraven: yea, lots of problems with my currently-running code :-/ next update will not be a fun project 2018-06-25T13:13:48Z mejja: is the code online? 2018-06-25T13:13:52Z ecraven: nope 2018-06-25T13:14:21Z ecraven: I've written much of it against this git version I'm using, which was obviously a very bad decision in hindsight 2018-06-25T13:14:33Z ecraven: so it's not even anyone's fault but my own that things don't work well now 2018-06-25T13:14:58Z ecraven: I'll try on a separate vm, I need to rebuild all the FFI native code and all the other compiled files 2018-06-25T13:31:54Z epony joined #scheme 2018-06-25T13:33:26Z jcowan: ecraven: since hygienic macros depend on processing and potentially renaming the whole of the input, not just macro invocations, the idea of a user-accessible macroexpander that expands random S-expressions out of context is radically incoherent. 2018-06-25T13:33:48Z jcowan: However, you can partly simulate one by inserting a quote into the RHS of each syntax-rules rule. 2018-06-25T13:39:32Z pie_ joined #scheme 2018-06-25T13:41:51Z Inline joined #scheme 2018-06-25T13:42:55Z gwatt: "radically incoherent" seems a bit strong. Multiple schemes have the ability to expand macros in an arbitrary s-expr 2018-06-25T13:45:12Z light2yellow quit (Quit: light2yellow) 2018-06-25T13:48:04Z Satou joined #scheme 2018-06-25T13:49:06Z Satou left #scheme 2018-06-25T14:07:35Z klovett quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-06-25T14:07:44Z klovett joined #scheme 2018-06-25T14:10:23Z atlask joined #scheme 2018-06-25T14:13:50Z atlask quit (Client Quit) 2018-06-25T14:19:45Z Riastradh: mejja: Nope, Chris wrote the current http-client, I think. 2018-06-25T14:20:27Z Riastradh: I did write a toy http-client about a decade ago, as I recall, but Chris pretty quickly replaced it. 2018-06-25T14:20:42Z dbmikus joined #scheme 2018-06-25T14:31:05Z ArneBab quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2018-06-25T14:32:09Z ArneBab joined #scheme 2018-06-25T14:44:06Z dbmikus_ joined #scheme 2018-06-25T14:45:21Z dbmikus quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-06-25T14:49:36Z finky quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-06-25T14:51:10Z jcowan: gwatt: I mean it in the sense that the output of such a macro expander, unless it was full of syntax objects, would be unfit for manual subsitution into actual code 2018-06-25T14:53:01Z gwatt: That's how chez and guile handle it 2018-06-25T14:54:21Z jao joined #scheme 2018-06-25T15:02:33Z worldchat quit (Quit: Instantbird 1.5 -- http://www.instantbird.com) 2018-06-25T15:03:22Z jcowan quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-06-25T15:15:43Z pierpal joined #scheme 2018-06-25T15:17:07Z skapata joined #scheme 2018-06-25T15:30:29Z pie_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2018-06-25T15:31:15Z pie_ joined #scheme 2018-06-25T15:32:12Z smurfrobot quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-06-25T15:45:00Z dieggsy joined #scheme 2018-06-25T15:53:40Z foof: ecraven: (import (chibi ast)) ... 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by peer) 2018-06-26T11:02:10Z vicenteH joined #scheme 2018-06-26T11:11:42Z fyodost joined #scheme 2018-06-26T11:12:45Z dmiles joined #scheme 2018-06-26T11:17:08Z jao joined #scheme 2018-06-26T11:25:22Z Menche joined #scheme 2018-06-26T11:26:53Z pierpal joined #scheme 2018-06-26T11:39:40Z ManDay[m] joined #scheme 2018-06-26T11:42:21Z ManDay[m]: Hi, about style, would you change anything in your code if something like (if (some-condition) (f a b1 c1) (f a b2 c2)) came up? If either c or b did not exist, I'd put the if inside like so (f a (if (some-condition) b1 b2)), but with two parameters it becomes uneasy. Suggestions? 2018-06-26T11:44:12Z ManDay[m]: (let ([g (lambda (b c) (f a b c))]) (if (some-condition) (g b1 c1) (g b2 c2)) would be alternatively ugly. 2018-06-26T11:45:04Z ManDay[m]: All this would be a problem with dynamic currying, oh well... One day I'm gonna write my own compiler... 2018-06-26T11:47:11Z ManDay[m]: Would-NOT 2018-06-26T11:49:50Z ManDay[m]: Hm, I guess the natural thing in this case to would make b and c a single parameter... 2018-06-26T11:50:23Z ManDay[m]: Ok, I'm just dropping random words from my sentences... 2018-06-26T11:50:29Z ManDay[m]: "to do", "would be" 2018-06-26T11:52:38Z ManDay[m]: but then again, that would make it a tuple/list essentially, which suggests the question why not all parameters are a list, semantically 2018-06-26T11:52:41Z fizzie: (apply f `(,a ,@(if (some-condition) (list b1 c1) (list b2 c2)))) but that's pretty ugly. 2018-06-26T11:53:14Z ManDay[m]: fizzie: That's an insult to ugly 2018-06-26T11:54:19Z fizzie: Well, hide it under a carpet^W macro. 2018-06-26T11:57:40Z ManDay[m]: Is there any consistent interpretation of how every list is a pair, but an empty list is not? Is an empty list... an empty pair, rather? 2018-06-26T11:59:46Z Menche quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-06-26T11:59:51Z ManDay[m]: nvm, I guess it's just a term... after all an empty is a mandatory entity 2018-06-26T12:01:56Z ecraven: ManDay[m]: I'd just leave it as you had it, with the if outside 2018-06-26T12:02:11Z ecraven: '() is not a pair 2018-06-26T12:03:08Z ManDay[m]: Does it have a name? 2018-06-26T12:03:12Z ManDay[m]: null? :) 2018-06-26T12:03:25Z ecraven: rudybot: (null? '()) 2018-06-26T12:03:35Z rudybot: ecraven: error: with-limit: out of time 2018-06-26T12:03:40Z ecraven: rudybot: (null? '()) 2018-06-26T12:03:42Z ecraven: strange 2018-06-26T12:03:49Z rudybot: ecraven: your sandbox is ready 2018-06-26T12:03:49Z rudybot: ecraven: ; Value: #t 2018-06-26T12:03:54Z ManDay[m]: rudybot is having issues recently... 2018-06-26T12:04:19Z ecraven: so null? is the predicate to check for '() 2018-06-26T12:04:34Z ManDay[m]: Anyway, I take that as a "'() is called 'null'" ? 2018-06-26T12:04:47Z ManDay[m]: I know, I was just asking what '() is called. 2018-06-26T12:04:57Z ManDay[m]: Calling it an empty list seems wrong, since lists are pairs 2018-06-26T12:05:06Z ManDay[m]: and '() is no pair 2018-06-26T12:06:04Z ecraven: '() is nil, null or the empty list 2018-06-26T12:06:09Z ecraven: rudybot: (pair? '()) 2018-06-26T12:06:10Z rudybot: ecraven: ; Value: #f 2018-06-26T12:06:14Z ecraven: so it's not a pair 2018-06-26T12:06:23Z ecraven: a pair is constructed by CONS 2018-06-26T12:06:29Z ecraven: rudybot: (pair? (cons 1 2)) 2018-06-26T12:06:29Z rudybot: ecraven: ; Value: #t 2018-06-26T12:11:19Z ecraven: not "an empty list" but "the empty list" 2018-06-26T12:11:25Z ecraven: like #f, which is *the* false value 2018-06-26T12:14:21Z vicenteH quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2018-06-26T12:14:58Z vicenteH joined #scheme 2018-06-26T12:21:17Z pie_ quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2018-06-26T12:26:49Z ManDay[m]: just saying, from the English language "the empty list" is a list, which "the empty list" in scheme is not 2018-06-26T12:27:01Z ecraven: well, it's more like a name 2018-06-26T12:27:19Z ManDay[m]: so "the null" would be a better term :-p 2018-06-26T12:28:56Z ecraven: it's easier in CL, they call it NIL 2018-06-26T12:29:04Z ecraven: but Scheme dropped that in r3rs, I think? 2018-06-26T12:29:40Z ManDay[m]: "in retrospect, that was a silly idea"... 2018-06-26T12:29:54Z ecraven: I don't think so, I like the distinction between #f and '() 2018-06-26T12:30:06Z ecraven: even though it is very convenient in CL for writing shorter code 2018-06-26T12:31:08Z ManDay[m]: indeed. i can't imagine how distinguishing between #f and '() would bring any advantage 2018-06-26T12:32:24Z ecraven: I'd say that's obvious, you *can* distinguish. 2018-06-26T12:32:29Z ecraven: with the downside that you *have* to ;) 2018-06-26T12:32:44Z ecraven: why is the empty list any more "falsy" than 0 or ""? 2018-06-26T12:33:05Z ManDay[m]: Distinguishing between different types is generally of no good purpose, I think. 2018-06-26T12:33:29Z ecraven: well, you can write your own predicate (define (nil? x) (or (null? x) (not x))) and use that 2018-06-26T12:33:43Z ManDay[m]: (there is no "connection" between a boolean value and a list, just like there is no intrinsic connection between an int and a string) 2018-06-26T12:34:52Z ManDay[m]: eheh, just while we talk about it I get... In procedure car: Wrong type argument in position 1 (expecting pair): #t 2018-06-26T12:35:06Z ManDay[m]: (and need to write another check) 2018-06-26T12:35:27Z ecraven: yea, car of #t is not defined 2018-06-26T12:41:20Z ManDay[m]: I've got (if (null? l) l (cons (f (car l)) (cdr l))) for a list l passed through a recursion who becomes irrelevant from a certain point on 2018-06-26T12:41:31Z ManDay[m]: i wish that could be written a bit more nicely 2018-06-26T12:43:42Z ecraven: well, you can abstract it to (foo f l), if you want that 2018-06-26T12:43:56Z ManDay[m]: isn't there a shortcut for (if (null? x) x (y x))? 2018-06-26T12:44:25Z ManDay[m]: ecraven: what do you mean? 2018-06-26T12:44:52Z ecraven: (define (foo f l) (if (null? l) l (cons (f (car l)) (cdr l)))) 2018-06-26T12:45:35Z ecraven: (or* null? x (y x)), with the obvious definition of or* 2018-06-26T12:45:42Z ecraven: or even or/null x (y x) 2018-06-26T12:45:44Z ManDay[m]: right, i just thought there was a nicer way to do that... like it would work if '() would be interpreted as #t: (or x (f x)) 2018-06-26T12:46:02Z ecraven: yea, you can do that, you just have to define your variant of or 2018-06-26T12:46:18Z ecraven: this is scheme, the question is always "how", never "whether" 2018-06-26T12:46:29Z klovett quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-06-26T12:47:25Z klovett joined #scheme 2018-06-26T12:49:31Z klovett quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-06-26T12:49:40Z klovett joined #scheme 2018-06-26T13:01:37Z dtornabene joined #scheme 2018-06-26T13:04:27Z ineiros quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-06-26T13:04:50Z XTL quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-06-26T13:09:45Z johndoe231 joined #scheme 2018-06-26T13:11:49Z Khisanth quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-06-26T13:15:57Z ManDay[m]: I'm trying to implement a recursive "add 1 in a given base" and I end up needing to return both, the increased digit-string and a carry flag. Am I doing something wrong? 2018-06-26T13:16:32Z ManDay[m]: Returning two values just takes any elegance that is left right down to hell. call-with-values just doesn't make sense to use in this way 2018-06-26T13:16:57Z enderby joined #scheme 2018-06-26T13:17:35Z ManDay[m]: (not that I have ever encountered a case where call-with-values does make sense, especially that silly producer semantic) 2018-06-26T13:19:18Z ManDay[m]: (i.e. why the heck does r6rs specify it as (call-with-values lambda lambda) rather than just (call-with-values expression lambda) 2018-06-26T13:19:52Z pie_ joined #scheme 2018-06-26T13:21:38Z johndoe231 quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.0.1) 2018-06-26T13:22:21Z rain1: you are not doing it wrong 2018-06-26T13:23:10Z ecraven: ManDay[m]: that way it can be a procedure, not syntax 2018-06-26T13:23:19Z ecraven: (not saying that's a good thing, but that's the reason, I think) 2018-06-26T13:23:32Z smurfrobot joined #scheme 2018-06-26T13:24:31Z ManDay[m]: ecraven: I don't understand. How does call-with-values have anything to do with syntax? I can trivially implement (values) and (call-with-values) myself by just letting (values) == (list) 2018-06-26T13:24:45Z ManDay[m]: (and call-with-values == apply, obviously) 2018-06-26T13:25:15Z Khisanth joined #scheme 2018-06-26T13:25:56Z ManDay[m]: in fact, I am resorting to a pair as a return value of two values, so that I don't have to use that call-with-values interface 2018-06-26T13:26:59Z ogamita joined #scheme 2018-06-26T13:27:29Z rain1: feel free to post your code for review 2018-06-26T13:28:49Z smurfrobot quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-06-26T13:29:35Z pie_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-06-26T13:29:38Z erkin joined #scheme 2018-06-26T13:32:40Z ecraven: ManDay[m]: that way you cannot distinguish between returning a list and returning multiple values 2018-06-26T13:32:53Z ecraven: which might not matter in your case, but there are cases where it matters ;) 2018-06-26T13:34:14Z ManDay[m]: If I need to distinguish between returning a list and multiple values, I wrap the result in a pair where the first entry is a boolean, telling me what I did return. (I'm really puzzled by such weird concepts, is that polymorphic living?) 2018-06-26T13:35:32Z rain1: hehe 2018-06-26T13:35:39Z rain1: then you cant tell between a pair like that and m.v. 2018-06-26T13:35:41Z rain1: you need to use a record 2018-06-26T13:36:02Z rain1: that creates a distinct type different from anything 2018-06-26T13:36:41Z ManDay[m]: if I can't tell between a pair and that, I wrap the result in a pair, where the first entry is a boolean... you get the idea... 2018-06-26T13:36:42Z ManDay[m]: (I don't) 2018-06-26T13:37:14Z ecraven: ManDay[m]: that won't work if you don't know anything about the values 2018-06-26T13:37:29Z ecraven: things like a memoization procedure are impossible to implement if you don't have proper multiple values support 2018-06-26T13:37:46Z ManDay[m]: How can I write a program to work on values I don't know anything about? I call bullshit ;) ! 2018-06-26T13:41:22Z ecraven: just a function, not a program 2018-06-26T13:41:35Z finky quit (Quit: Leaving) 2018-06-26T13:42:59Z ManDay[m]: I see. But I don't relate. If I write a function, I make assumptions on how it is used. 2018-06-26T13:43:24Z ManDay[m]: I don't write "polymorphic" in the sense that the function can be applied however one likes and it figures out what to do based upon some concept of "introspection" (or equivalent). 2018-06-26T13:44:33Z ManDay[m]: In either case, I don't understand how that makes call-with-values syntax if you allow for an expression in the first parameter 2018-06-26T13:45:06Z mazeto joined #scheme 2018-06-26T13:48:06Z rain1: If call with values was a function and took an exerssion 2018-06-26T13:48:36Z rain1: that first parameter would only get 1 value (assuming your in a scheme where multiple values in a single value context ends up just getting thefirst one) 2018-06-26T13:49:02Z rain1: having it a lambda allows the procedure itself to call in it a special way that is set up to receive multiple values 2018-06-26T13:50:23Z ManDay[m]: ah ok, i guess i understand 2018-06-26T13:50:30Z ManDay[m]: thanks 2018-06-26T13:52:03Z klovett quit 2018-06-26T13:52:08Z ManDay[m]: just... re-thinking it, how would it actually be a problem to distinguish between a list and multiple return values? If the code is polymorphic to the extend that it doesn't understand *what* is being returned, how would it matter to distinguish. i can't construct any real life example 2018-06-26T13:52:34Z fyodost quit (Quit: Leaving) 2018-06-26T13:52:56Z rain1: it probably isn't an issue for the reasons you said: You know this function always returns 2 values (for example) 2018-06-26T13:53:02Z smurfrobot joined #scheme 2018-06-26T13:53:08Z Inline joined #scheme 2018-06-26T13:54:17Z ManDay[m]: and even if returned any number of them, 1 or 10 as a list or only 1 list of 10, the distinction would not matter 2018-06-26T13:54:18Z rain1: but still, using a type that is not distinct from all existing types to indicate something is call 'in band signalling' is generally producing error prone systems 2018-06-26T13:54:27Z klovett joined #scheme 2018-06-26T13:55:04Z rain1: the situation where this would be an actual problem is: If for some inputs the function returned a list and for others it return multiple values. This situation never occurs in practice 2018-06-26T13:58:00Z ineiros joined #scheme 2018-06-26T13:58:00Z XTL joined #scheme 2018-06-26T14:03:22Z ogamita quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-06-26T14:05:23Z Menche joined #scheme 2018-06-26T14:08:41Z siiky joined #scheme 2018-06-26T14:13:26Z badkins joined #scheme 2018-06-26T14:18:16Z pie_ joined #scheme 2018-06-26T14:18:45Z smurfrobot quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-06-26T14:19:23Z smurfrobot joined #scheme 2018-06-26T14:20:43Z alezost joined #scheme 2018-06-26T14:23:35Z smurfrobot quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-06-26T14:31:45Z dbmikus_ joined #scheme 2018-06-26T14:37:53Z skapata joined #scheme 2018-06-26T14:37:57Z Menche quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-06-26T14:52:09Z vicenteH quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2018-06-26T14:53:21Z vicenteH joined #scheme 2018-06-26T14:54:40Z jcowan joined #scheme 2018-06-26T14:55:44Z ecraven: as I said, a generic memoization function which supports multiple values won't work unless it can distinguish 2018-06-26T14:56:09Z ecraven: rain1: that situation very much can occur for memoization 2018-06-26T14:58:09Z gwatt: like force/delay 2018-06-26T15:02:27Z ManDay[m]: ecraven: How so? 2018-06-26T15:02:36Z ManDay[m]: The memoization function just cares about the output of the function it cashes, it doesn't at all care what the values mean. 2018-06-26T15:02:52Z ManDay[m]: So it doesn't matter whether the function returns (values) or (list) 2018-06-26T15:05:18Z gwatt: ManDay[m]: it doesn't care about the values, but it does need to return exactly what the memoized procedure returns 2018-06-26T15:07:35Z ManDay[m]: gwatt: Yes, but the premise was that the function used (list) to convey multiple values. 2018-06-26T15:08:13Z ManDay[m]: ecraven:'s argument was that this were not sufficient because it would lead to problems . 2018-06-26T15:09:43Z ManDay[m]: And I doubt the validity of that argument 2018-06-26T15:09:59Z smurfrobot joined #scheme 2018-06-26T15:10:49Z gwatt: How do you distinguish between a single value that is a list, and multiple values represented as a single list 2018-06-26T15:12:00Z ManDay[m]: You don't. That question is an ignoratio elenchi though 2018-06-26T15:12:15Z ManDay[m]: You can't distinguish it, like you say. But that has no relevance. 2018-06-26T15:12:44Z ManDay[m]: (i.e. I claim you wont be able to construct an example where this causes a problem) 2018-06-26T15:13:39Z ManDay[m]: in the end (values) is but a "type" - and the idea of imposing types, though of merit in itsself, does not belong into scheme. 2018-06-26T15:19:33Z ineiros quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-06-26T15:19:58Z ineiros joined #scheme 2018-06-26T15:24:39Z jcowan: ManDay[m]: But it is not all one whether you return (values) or (list). The latter makes sense only if the continuation allows or expeccts zero values, whereas the latter is one value. 2018-06-26T15:30:42Z gwatt: I think you meant: "The former makes sense ..." 2018-06-26T15:31:16Z smurfrobot quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-06-26T15:33:03Z smurfrobot joined #scheme 2018-06-26T15:36:04Z ineiros quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-06-26T15:36:41Z ineiros joined #scheme 2018-06-26T15:42:11Z ineiros quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-06-26T15:42:18Z ineiros joined #scheme 2018-06-26T15:45:25Z jao quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-06-26T15:47:14Z mazeto quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2018-06-26T15:47:20Z ineiros quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2018-06-26T15:48:17Z ineiros joined #scheme 2018-06-26T15:48:58Z jao joined #scheme 2018-06-26T15:51:16Z ManDay[m]: jcowan: We may be talking about different issues here. The assumption of my claim is that (values) does not exist (you can define your own impl. ofc). The argument was that the absence of (values) lead to problems. 2018-06-26T15:51:57Z dtornabene quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2018-06-26T15:51:57Z ManDay[m]: The continuation in my world always expects "one value" 2018-06-26T15:52:03Z ManDay[m]: (possibly a list) 2018-06-26T15:52:18Z jcowan nods 2018-06-26T15:52:50Z jcowan: in order to support full Scheme semantics, then, you would never return 5, you'd return (5) 2018-06-26T15:53:49Z jcowan: that's pretty much what Chibi does: to return multiple values, it returns ( values), where is a specific object 2018-06-26T15:54:07Z ManDay[m]: No, I'd also return 5. 2018-06-26T15:54:07Z ManDay[m]: It just depends on what I want with my function. 2018-06-26T15:54:15Z jcowan: er, ( value ...) 2018-06-26T15:54:47Z jcowan: so (values 5 10) returns ((values) 5 10), where the car is a specific cons 2018-06-26T15:55:15Z jcowan: call-with-values and friends understand this convention, but the rest of the system does not 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2018-06-27T05:23:47Z ManDay[m]: Hm, I suppose I'm here... 2018-06-27T05:25:36Z ManDay[m]: Question: Does scheme (guile?) figure out correctly that something is effectively tail recursive even if it's written as (let f ([x 1]) (let ([g (f ...)]) (h g))) ? 2018-06-27T05:26:07Z ManDay[m]: I.e. the recursive call doesn't occur at the end, but no data has to be maintained from before it. 2018-06-27T05:26:20Z ManDay[m]: (You'd call that effectively tail-recursive, I hope) 2018-06-27T05:27:41Z qu1j0t3: this doesn't look tail recursive to me. 2018-06-27T05:27:52Z qu1j0t3: you are making the recursive call then doing further operations on the result 2018-06-27T05:28:29Z ManDay[m]: qu1j0t3: I could have just written (h (f ...)), then it would be, wouldn't it? 2018-06-27T05:28:39Z qu1j0t3: if the result were g then it would be tail recursive, but not when the result is some expression involving g 2018-06-27T05:28:53Z ManDay[m]: I'm thinking of it as "no stack frame has to be retained) 2018-06-27T05:29:04Z qu1j0t3: since you can't evaluate it without having evaluated g prior 2018-06-27T05:29:55Z ManDay[m]: Is my understanding of "stack frame can be discarded"=="tail-recursive" not correect? 2018-06-27T05:29:58Z qu1j0t3: ManDay[m]: no, that would not be tail recursive either. 2018-06-27T05:30:25Z qu1j0t3: the evaluation (h g) or (h (f ...)) has to be deferred until the recursive call has completed. 2018-06-27T05:30:35Z qu1j0t3: so yes you are building up activations --- not tail recursive. 2018-06-27T05:31:19Z ManDay[m]: right, i mean the execution has to keep track of how many recursions occured, to chain all the (h (g (h ...)))) together in the end 2018-06-27T05:31:30Z qu1j0t3: exactly. 2018-06-27T05:31:33Z ManDay[m]: I thought that'd still qualify as tail-recursion ;-( 2018-06-27T05:31:37Z qu1j0t3: definitely not :) 2018-06-27T05:32:45Z qu1j0t3: it's a fairly minimal example of something that isn't. The problem is you can't evaluate (h g) without having evaluated g. So every activation of f ends up deferring that evaluation 2018-06-27T05:41:40Z Inline quit (Quit: Leaving) 2018-06-27T05:51:51Z smurfrobot joined #scheme 2018-06-27T05:56:13Z profan joined #scheme 2018-06-27T05:56:49Z smurfrobot quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2018-06-27T05:57:59Z surya joined #scheme 2018-06-27T06:06:26Z ngz joined #scheme 2018-06-27T06:07:11Z Menche joined #scheme 2018-06-27T06:08:18Z smurfrobot joined #scheme 2018-06-27T06:13:07Z jcowan_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2018-06-27T06:14:13Z smurfrobot quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2018-06-27T06:15:42Z aanand`: Till these years using looping constructs in c,java,python, not having them in scheme , its still a shock.. 2018-06-27T06:16:13Z aanand`: I am still wrapping my head around this.. 2018-06-27T06:16:55Z aanand`: Is it the norm to only use recursion ? 2018-06-27T06:17:37Z ManDay[m]: "Scheme, such a silly language... They completely forgot about loops when they designed it!" 2018-06-27T06:18:24Z ManDay[m]: aanand`: The norm, yes. But you could use call/cc, too. 2018-06-27T06:19:11Z ManDay[m]: "call/cc: the GOTO of Scheme" (and with "GOTO", everything is possible, as we know) 2018-06-27T06:20:15Z ManDay[m]: call/cc and set! and you're all good for writing imperatively in Scheme! 2018-06-27T06:22:37Z aanand`: ManDay[m]:thanks, I like this way of thinking recursively. Just wanted to know if I missed anything. I am still learning scheme, I will check out your suggestion. 2018-06-27T06:22:41Z ManDay[m]: Ok, I guess I shouldn't be handing out such advises to someone who's knew to Scheme. I was joking, okay? 2018-06-27T06:22:47Z ManDay[m]: s/knew/new 2018-06-27T06:23:03Z ManDay[m]: Jeez, no, I was joking! 2018-06-27T06:23:15Z ManDay[m]: Don't do that. Do recursions! Don't touch call/cc. It's evil! 2018-06-27T06:23:26Z ManDay[m]: (Unless you have a real good reason for it) 2018-06-27T06:23:54Z ManDay[m]: And don't use anything with an exclamation point. Those are even worse bastards than call/cc 2018-06-27T06:25:16Z aanand`: ManDay[m]: thanks, will stick to recursion for now.:-) 2018-06-27T06:25:17Z smurfrobot joined #scheme 2018-06-27T06:25:56Z ManDay[m]: Great :) 2018-06-27T06:29:50Z smurfrobot quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-06-27T06:53:12Z civodul joined #scheme 2018-06-27T06:58:14Z robotoad quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2018-06-27T07:12:49Z surya quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-06-27T07:13:05Z fyodost quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2018-06-27T07:13:30Z robotoad joined #scheme 2018-06-27T07:15:29Z surya joined #scheme 2018-06-27T07:23:09Z ManDay[m]: It's quite amazing how minimal design yields some phenomena which appear to be characteristic of the problem. Right here I'm building an iterator over some combinatoric problem and in my first formulation it required a ternary state which I wanted to get rid of. Since then I've designed two completely different approaches and every time I eventually end up requiring a ternary variable - with a completely different meaning 2018-06-27T07:23:09Z ManDay[m]: each time. 2018-06-27T07:25:56Z wasamasa: what is a ternary variable even 2018-06-27T07:26:06Z smurfrobot joined #scheme 2018-06-27T07:26:42Z ManDay[m]: If you feel like tying: Stack K blocks of integer (>0) height on top of eachother. Iterate over all possible combinations of stackings with a cumulative height less than N. The context free iteration function should take as arguments a given stacking (list of heights) and (N+1). 2018-06-27T07:26:56Z wasamasa ties shoes 2018-06-27T07:27:02Z ManDay[m]: wasamasa: Like a boolean, but with three states (e.g. -1,0,1, if you want to represent it like that) 2018-06-27T07:27:54Z amz31 joined #scheme 2018-06-27T07:28:20Z wasamasa: let's implement a scheme for trinary computers 2018-06-27T07:29:18Z ManDay[m]: i suppose you'd end up with a lot of problems which require binary variables, and then you'd go back to your binary computer :-P 2018-06-27T07:30:28Z smurfrobot quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-06-27T07:33:01Z greatscottttt joined #scheme 2018-06-27T07:33:25Z robotoad quit (Quit: robotoad) 2018-06-27T07:37:50Z wasamasa: nah, I doubt that's why they failed 2018-06-27T07:43:46Z PinealGlandOptic joined #scheme 2018-06-27T07:49:17Z smurfrobot joined #scheme 2018-06-27T07:54:10Z smurfrobot quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-06-27T08:03:52Z johndoe231 joined #scheme 2018-06-27T08:20:49Z johndoe231 quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.0.1) 2018-06-27T08:22:15Z PinealGlandOptic quit (Quit: leaving) 2018-06-27T08:29:39Z vicenteH quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2018-06-27T08:30:18Z vicenteH joined #scheme 2018-06-27T08:47:35Z lritter joined #scheme 2018-06-27T08:50:02Z smurfrobot joined #scheme 2018-06-27T08:54:44Z smurfrobot quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2018-06-27T09:02:49Z nordstrom quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2018-06-27T09:04:24Z lloda quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2018-06-27T09:05:42Z nordstrom joined #scheme 2018-06-27T09:08:44Z logicmoo quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2018-06-27T09:16:22Z dmiles joined #scheme 2018-06-27T09:32:43Z johndoe231 joined #scheme 2018-06-27T09:37:30Z johndoe231 quit (Client Quit) 2018-06-27T09:43:10Z smurfrobot joined #scheme 2018-06-27T09:48:17Z smurfrobot quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2018-06-27T10:09:18Z ManDay[m]: Anyone knows what's that debug-print statement that returns its last argument? 2018-06-27T10:09:33Z ManDay[m]: And for God's sake why does googling "scheme debug print" not bring up anything?! 2018-06-27T10:09:49Z ManDay[m]: I keep forgetting that command and it's outright impossible to find! 2018-06-27T10:11:57Z Khisanth quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-06-27T10:24:56Z skapata joined #scheme 2018-06-27T10:30:29Z lloda joined #scheme 2018-06-27T10:43:27Z smurfrobot joined #scheme 2018-06-27T10:48:14Z smurfrobot quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-06-27T10:48:14Z TheGreekOwl quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-06-27T10:51:33Z lockywolf joined #scheme 2018-06-27T10:52:59Z smurfrobot joined #scheme 2018-06-27T10:53:23Z lockywolf_ joined #scheme 2018-06-27T10:55:51Z lockywolf quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-06-27T10:56:44Z excelsior quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-06-27T10:57:58Z smurfrobot quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2018-06-27T11:12:57Z skapata quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-06-27T11:14:40Z skapata joined #scheme 2018-06-27T11:16:23Z ngz quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2018-06-27T11:51:37Z jeapostrophe47 joined #scheme 2018-06-27T11:53:40Z smurfrobot joined #scheme 2018-06-27T11:56:35Z amz31: ManDay[m]: pk 2018-06-27T11:58:03Z smurfrobot quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-06-27T12:03:34Z jao joined #scheme 2018-06-27T12:16:17Z longshi joined #scheme 2018-06-27T12:22:51Z pierpal joined #scheme 2018-06-27T12:35:01Z jcowan joined #scheme 2018-06-27T12:51:04Z longshi quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2018-06-27T12:53:01Z lockywolf_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-06-27T12:53:19Z lockywolf_ joined #scheme 2018-06-27T12:54:30Z smurfrobot joined #scheme 2018-06-27T12:59:13Z smurfrobot quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2018-06-27T13:01:11Z lockywolf_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-06-27T13:01:19Z lockywolf_ joined #scheme 2018-06-27T13:06:00Z longshi joined #scheme 2018-06-27T13:06:09Z surya quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2018-06-27T13:15:12Z longshi quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2018-06-27T13:30:35Z nivpgir quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-06-27T13:34:20Z dbmikus_ joined #scheme 2018-06-27T13:36:48Z ngz joined #scheme 2018-06-27T13:49:10Z ManDay[m]: amz31: Yeah! Where did you find that, though? 2018-06-27T13:49:26Z ManDay[m]: (where can one find that?) 2018-06-27T13:50:12Z lockywolf_ quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2018-06-27T13:55:15Z smurfrobot joined #scheme 2018-06-27T13:57:23Z j3kyl_ joined #scheme 2018-06-27T14:00:22Z smurfrobot quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-06-27T14:03:54Z ecraven: which Scheme has that pk? 2018-06-27T14:24:57Z j3kyl_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2018-06-27T14:27:03Z amz31: guile 2018-06-27T14:29:28Z badkins joined #scheme 2018-06-27T14:31:27Z amz31 quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2018-06-27T14:33:38Z Khisanth joined #scheme 2018-06-27T14:40:17Z j3kyl_ joined #scheme 2018-06-27T14:42:28Z surya joined #scheme 2018-06-27T14:53:34Z Inline joined #scheme 2018-06-27T14:56:04Z smurfrobot joined #scheme 2018-06-27T14:58:17Z cortisol joined #scheme 2018-06-27T15:00:27Z smurfrobot quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-06-27T15:13:19Z edgar-rft quit (Quit: edgar-rft) 2018-06-27T15:13:45Z X-Scale quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-06-27T15:21:59Z X-Scale joined #scheme 2018-06-27T15:27:08Z robotoad joined #scheme 2018-06-27T15:27:28Z gwatt: pk appears to be an alias of peek 2018-06-27T15:47:37Z light2yellow joined #scheme 2018-06-27T15:48:12Z ecraven: does it just print its argument and return it? 2018-06-27T15:51:50Z smazga joined #scheme 2018-06-27T15:56:49Z smurfrobot joined #scheme 2018-06-27T15:59:36Z amz3: ecraven: it returns the last argument only 2018-06-27T15:59:40Z amz3: but print all of them 2018-06-27T16:01:54Z smurfrobot quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2018-06-27T16:08:38Z fyodost joined #scheme 2018-06-27T16:09:53Z greatscottttt quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.9) 2018-06-27T16:16:44Z jlongster joined #scheme 2018-06-27T16:25:34Z ecraven: reminds me a bit of trace-define, trace-let etc. from chez, those are really nice for debugging 2018-06-27T16:26:08Z excelsior joined #scheme 2018-06-27T16:31:51Z ecraven: Ah, and of *course* chez's built-in `sort' takes parameters the other way around from mit's :-/ (sort predicate object) vs. (sort object predicate) 2018-06-27T16:36:23Z X-Scale: good naming of procedures and variables, ordering of parameters and such are non-trivial challenges 2018-06-27T16:37:42Z pjb joined #scheme 2018-06-27T16:43:38Z rain1: > Don't use boolean parameters to toggle behaviour - they're indecipherable from the calling context 2018-06-27T16:43:40Z rain1: This is mostly solved in languages with named parameter calling (if you use it). Example: createFile(name, contents, temporary=True) 2018-06-27T16:43:52Z rain1: I was wondering about this for scheme, i don't really know any good way to do named argumenst 2018-06-27T16:46:00Z nilg` joined #scheme 2018-06-27T16:47:45Z nilg quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-06-27T16:50:01Z jcowan: There is no standard way. Some Schemes support keyword arguments a la Common Lisp and DS*L 2018-06-27T16:51:05Z erratic quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-06-27T16:57:30Z smurfrobot joined #scheme 2018-06-27T16:59:12Z gwatt: rain1:on the flipside, createFile could take a number of options and 'temporary could be one 2018-06-27T17:00:17Z rain1: like this? (create-file name contents 'temporary #t) 2018-06-27T17:00:20Z rain1: seems pretty good 2018-06-27T17:00:52Z gwatt: I was thinking 'temporary by itself 2018-06-27T17:01:00Z rain1: oh i see 2018-06-27T17:01:09Z InPhase: Or (create-file name contents '('temporary #t)), because you can never have too many parentheses. 2018-06-27T17:02:07Z InPhase: That would enable things like: '('filemodes ...) 2018-06-27T17:02:09Z cmaloney quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-06-27T17:02:55Z smurfrobot quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-06-27T17:03:03Z gwatt: that's how Chez passes extra options to file procedures (and others) 2018-06-27T17:03:22Z rain1: there is a lot wrong with that 2018-06-27T17:03:46Z gwatt: a lot wrong with which? 2018-06-27T17:03:50Z rain1: InPhase 2018-06-27T17:04:40Z InPhase: It's a bit character heavy, but it has clarity and flexibility. 2018-06-27T17:06:59Z rain1: I wonder if we could come up with a nice terse way to do it that doesn't break the nice aspects of scheme 2018-06-27T17:07:36Z cmaloney joined #scheme 2018-06-27T17:07:46Z rain1: we could make :___=___ a special reader thing and do (create-file name contents :temporary=#t) 2018-06-27T17:08:49Z rain1: this fixes the problem that (create-file name contents 'temporary #t) has of changing 'temporary to something variable [not good for static checks] 2018-06-27T17:09:31Z gwatt: Some extra arguments don't require additional data. I think the presence of 'temporary is enough. 2018-06-27T17:09:51Z rain1: im not sure if :foo=x should evaluate to something like a record pairing the symbol and value or be invalid if not in a procedure call contexnt or what 2018-06-27T17:09:56Z InPhase: rain1: Well :temporary=#t is not a valid token, but :value=2 is. 2018-06-27T17:12:13Z InPhase: As in you can do (define :value=2 5) 2018-06-27T17:12:41Z rain1: i'm proposing a new syntax 2018-06-27T17:14:36Z InPhase: I'm just pointing out that it's conflicting existing syntax in some edge cases. 2018-06-27T17:17:34Z rain1: yeah thats true good point 2018-06-27T17:20:32Z erratic joined #scheme 2018-06-27T17:29:37Z surya quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2018-06-27T17:30:58Z jao quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-06-27T17:37:50Z zachk joined #scheme 2018-06-27T17:37:50Z zachk quit (Changing host) 2018-06-27T17:37:50Z zachk joined #scheme 2018-06-27T17:42:08Z jcowan quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2018-06-27T17:42:59Z pierpal quit (Quit: Poof) 2018-06-27T17:43:18Z pierpal joined #scheme 2018-06-27T17:47:52Z jlongster quit (Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com) 2018-06-27T17:58:57Z smurfrobot joined #scheme 2018-06-27T18:03:30Z ketralnis quit (Quit: Coyote finally caught me) 2018-06-27T18:03:57Z smurfrobot quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-06-27T18:04:36Z ecraven: I don't see any need for new syntax 2018-06-27T18:06:31Z ecraven: any of these three is fine by me: (create-file name contents 'temporary) (create-file name contents :temporary #t) (create-file name contents 'temporary #t) 2018-06-27T18:06:43Z Riastradh: rain1: Racket's named parameters work a lot better than the Common Lisp / DSSSL system. 2018-06-27T18:07:01Z ecraven: Riastradh: those are syntax-only right? no way to pass them to apply at runtime? 2018-06-27T18:11:39Z Riastradh: You can pass them at runtime. 2018-06-27T18:12:58Z jcowan joined #scheme 2018-06-27T18:18:34Z pierpal quit (Quit: Poof) 2018-06-27T18:18:52Z pierpal joined #scheme 2018-06-27T18:21:13Z pierpal quit (Client Quit) 2018-06-27T18:21:35Z pierpal joined #scheme 2018-06-27T18:22:43Z alezost joined #scheme 2018-06-27T18:25:05Z brendyn quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-06-27T18:25:09Z rain1: you mean that parametrize thing? fluid bindinsg 2018-06-27T18:26:42Z ecraven: I think 4.4.3 on this page:https://docs.racket-lang.org/guide/lambda.html 2018-06-27T18:33:51Z cortisol quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2018-06-27T18:35:31Z X-Scale: goal 2018-06-27T18:35:38Z X-Scale: ops...wrong window 2018-06-27T18:45:09Z epony joined #scheme 2018-06-27T18:49:18Z s4vo joined #scheme 2018-06-27T18:53:43Z Riastradh: rain1: Heh, no, I mean what ecraven cited. 2018-06-27T18:53:57Z rain1: alright 2018-06-27T18:54:59Z erkin joined #scheme 2018-06-27T18:58:20Z erkin quit (Client Quit) 2018-06-27T19:00:11Z ecraven: Riastradh: is the main difference to the usual keyword arguments implementations that there is a clear distinction between keyword marker and parameter value, so there is no way to confuse what is a keyword marker and what is a value? or is there something else I'm missing here? 2018-06-27T19:00:13Z erkin joined #scheme 2018-06-27T19:00:23Z smurfrobot joined #scheme 2018-06-27T19:01:00Z Riastradh: ecraven: Correct. 2018-06-27T19:01:52Z ecraven: seems good, even though #:foo is a bit strong to me, it looks more important in code than it is :-/ 2018-06-27T19:02:07Z ecraven: but that might be purely an issue of fontification 2018-06-27T19:02:48Z Riastradh: Yes, it's a little ugly. 2018-06-27T19:03:21Z ecraven: but then, :foo would suffice, if you don't allow keywords as normal values 2018-06-27T19:03:46Z edgar-rft joined #scheme 2018-06-27T19:05:10Z smurfrobot quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-06-27T19:05:10Z jcowan quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-06-27T19:08:54Z ecraven: does anyone here know which library would allow me to *read* a PDF file into memory, then add content (text, rectangles, pdf stuff), then store it all together? for things like filling out forms (not actual PDF forms, just formular data in general)? right now I use cairo to generate the text, then merge it with the "background" pdf, but that seems non-ideal 2018-06-27T19:12:30Z s4vo quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.1) 2018-06-27T19:35:16Z nilg` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-06-27T19:35:43Z jcowan joined #scheme 2018-06-27T19:40:33Z jcowan quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-06-27T19:49:30Z taylan joined #scheme 2018-06-27T20:01:07Z smurfrobot joined #scheme 2018-06-27T20:03:22Z klovett quit 2018-06-27T20:04:57Z klovett joined #scheme 2018-06-27T20:05:50Z smurfrobot quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-06-27T20:10:49Z rain1: im not sure about the racket way 2018-06-27T20:19:04Z daviid joined #scheme 2018-06-27T20:24:32Z jao joined #scheme 2018-06-27T20:27:22Z X-Scale quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-06-27T20:28:05Z [X-Scale] joined #scheme 2018-06-27T20:28:19Z [X-Scale] is now known as X-Scale 2018-06-27T20:45:44Z sethalves quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2018-06-27T20:52:01Z taylan quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-06-27T20:52:55Z taylan joined #scheme 2018-06-27T20:54:24Z taylan quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-06-27T21:02:02Z smurfrobot joined #scheme 2018-06-27T21:06:57Z smurfrobot quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-06-27T21:09:21Z pierpa joined #scheme 2018-06-27T21:16:20Z tubuliferous joined #scheme 2018-06-27T21:46:12Z cmaloney quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.1) 2018-06-27T21:51:51Z civodul quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 26.1)) 2018-06-27T21:58:30Z erkin quit (Quit: Ouch! 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Using rainbow parentheses really helps scheme readability in vim. 2018-06-28T01:24:38Z jcowan_ joined #scheme 2018-06-28T01:24:59Z brendyn joined #scheme 2018-06-28T01:26:57Z jcowan quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-06-28T01:28:21Z atlask quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.1) 2018-06-28T01:30:31Z atlask joined #scheme 2018-06-28T01:33:04Z fyodost quit (Quit: Leaving) 2018-06-28T01:39:11Z badkins quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-06-28T01:44:45Z dbmikus_ joined #scheme 2018-06-28T01:47:21Z robotoad quit (Quit: robotoad) 2018-06-28T01:49:21Z dbmikus_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-06-28T01:57:15Z jcowan_ is now known as jcowan 2018-06-28T02:05:10Z j3kyl_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-06-28T02:08:06Z atlask quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.1) 2018-06-28T02:10:05Z atlask joined #scheme 2018-06-28T02:17:12Z dbmikus_ joined #scheme 2018-06-28T02:21:04Z robotoad joined #scheme 2018-06-28T02:54:20Z daviid quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2018-06-28T02:59:15Z excelsior quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-06-28T03:01:14Z pierpa quit (Quit: Page closed) 2018-06-28T03:06:37Z smurfrobot joined #scheme 2018-06-28T03:11:09Z smurfrobot quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-06-28T03:17:10Z lavaflow quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-06-28T03:27:39Z daviid joined #scheme 2018-06-28T03:29:18Z lavaflow joined #scheme 2018-06-28T03:41:50Z TheGreekOwl joined #scheme 2018-06-28T03:43:20Z jao quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2018-06-28T03:43:27Z zooey quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-06-28T03:43:59Z zooey joined #scheme 2018-06-28T03:44:06Z zooey quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-06-28T03:50:07Z cmaloney quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.1) 2018-06-28T03:53:30Z cmaloney joined #scheme 2018-06-28T04:00:09Z smurfrobot joined #scheme 2018-06-28T04:02:13Z excelsior joined #scheme 2018-06-28T04:05:03Z smurfrobot quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2018-06-28T04:08:02Z dbmikus_ quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.1) 2018-06-28T04:13:30Z zooey joined #scheme 2018-06-28T04:33:56Z atlask quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.1) 2018-06-28T05:00:54Z smurfrobot joined #scheme 2018-06-28T05:03:22Z Inline quit (Quit: Leaving) 2018-06-28T05:05:40Z smurfrobot quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2018-06-28T05:17:19Z daviid quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-06-28T05:26:41Z X-Scale quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2018-06-28T05:43:50Z smurfrobot joined #scheme 2018-06-28T05:59:43Z robotoad quit (Quit: robotoad) 2018-06-28T06:03:42Z johndoe231 joined #scheme 2018-06-28T06:05:15Z johndoe231 quit (Client Quit) 2018-06-28T06:06:49Z ecraven: InPhase: I find that proper indentation helps the most, even without anything more than just highlighting the matching parenthesis near point / the cursor 2018-06-28T06:11:50Z robotoad joined #scheme 2018-06-28T06:21:54Z InPhase: ecraven: For understanding the intended logic, yes. But indentation does not adequately catch all the syntax errors. 2018-06-28T06:22:32Z InPhase: ecraven: Also it does not help visually cluster parentheses within a single line. 2018-06-28T06:22:52Z ngz joined #scheme 2018-06-28T06:23:11Z smurfrobot quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-06-28T06:23:11Z nilg joined #scheme 2018-06-28T06:25:00Z smurfrobot joined #scheme 2018-06-28T06:39:03Z spectrumgomas[m] quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-06-28T06:40:30Z remix2000[m] quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-06-28T06:42:28Z spectrumgomas[m] joined #scheme 2018-06-28T06:42:56Z jim quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-06-28T06:44:26Z remix2000[m] joined #scheme 2018-06-28T06:45:05Z civodul joined #scheme 2018-06-28T06:57:06Z robotoad quit (Quit: robotoad) 2018-06-28T07:09:10Z ecraven: not sure I understand.. emacs indents many forms so that you can see if the syntax is correct 2018-06-28T07:10:37Z ecraven: can you show me an example of what you think is Scheme code with bad readability due to indentation? 2018-06-28T07:23:20Z jimm joined #scheme 2018-06-28T07:23:52Z jimm quit (Client Quit) 2018-06-28T07:25:35Z amz31 joined #scheme 2018-06-28T07:25:38Z smurfrobot quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-06-28T07:28:51Z ManDay[m]: Is there a standard function to repeat an element N times in a list? 2018-06-28T07:30:07Z ecraven: (make-list n element) 2018-06-28T07:41:14Z werkin joined #scheme 2018-06-28T07:48:30Z surya joined #scheme 2018-06-28T07:55:14Z enderby joined #scheme 2018-06-28T07:59:37Z klovett quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-06-28T08:00:26Z klovett joined #scheme 2018-06-28T08:00:35Z surya quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-06-28T08:01:29Z greatscottttt joined #scheme 2018-06-28T08:05:07Z werkin quit (Quit: Leaving) 2018-06-28T08:14:27Z surya joined #scheme 2018-06-28T08:21:22Z excelsior quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-06-28T08:26:11Z smurfrobot joined #scheme 2018-06-28T08:31:34Z smurfrobot quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-06-28T08:33:29Z ManDay[m]: Ah cool, thanks :) 2018-06-28T08:34:34Z kjeldahl_ joined #scheme 2018-06-28T08:36:49Z jim joined #scheme 2018-06-28T08:37:35Z kjeldahl quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-06-28T08:37:36Z ecraven: unfortunately there is no standard function that takes a function with an index instead of an element :-/ 2018-06-28T08:57:11Z ManDay[m]: An index? 2018-06-28T08:57:30Z ManDay[m]: By the way: How come I can't find make-list in either the spec nor the stdlib? 2018-06-28T08:58:13Z ManDay[m]: Is it guile specific? 2018-06-28T08:58:30Z ManDay[m]: Ah okay, you mean (make-list 10 (lambda (i) (2 * i))) 2018-06-28T09:00:58Z ecraven: make-list is in r7rs 2018-06-28T09:01:09Z ecraven: yes, some Schemes have that function as `tabulate', I think 2018-06-28T09:01:18Z ManDay[m]: Well if there was something like make-list which created a list of indices you could use map 2018-06-28T09:01:29Z ecraven: (iota 10) from srfi should create the incides 2018-06-28T09:01:58Z nordstrom quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2018-06-28T09:02:04Z ecraven: indeed, but sometimes succinctness is relevant, and normal Scheme code can be a bit too verbose, imho :-/ 2018-06-28T09:02:33Z ManDay[m]: well then (map (lambda (i) (i)) (iota 10)) seems good enough 2018-06-28T09:02:52Z ecraven: I found this interesting http://www.gar1t.com/blog/solving-embarrassingly-obvious-problems-in-erlang.html 2018-06-28T09:03:04Z ManDay[m]: you're willing to trade 1 token for a new language element? ;) 2018-06-28T09:03:22Z ecraven: ManDay[m]: not language element, just a function 2018-06-28T09:03:38Z ecraven: just like I find filter-map and append-map better than their respective decomposition 2018-06-28T09:03:58Z ecraven: maybe map-iota would be a good name for that 2018-06-28T09:04:28Z ManDay[m]: with that way of thinking there is hardly any limit :-P 2018-06-28T09:04:49Z ecraven: well, all the building the language up towards the problem is really convincing to me 2018-06-28T09:05:04Z ecraven: why *should* I be limited by what the language designers thought was right? that's why we have functions and macros 2018-06-28T09:05:24Z nordstrom joined #scheme 2018-06-28T09:08:31Z ManDay[m]: ecraven: That post about erlang seems more to be a statement about functional programming rather than erlang itself 2018-06-28T09:09:30Z ManDay[m]: s/rather/ 2018-06-28T09:15:50Z j3kyl_ joined #scheme 2018-06-28T09:30:26Z ecraven: I see it as a guide on how to structure code in general 2018-06-28T09:30:44Z ecraven: not sure I'd want to go that far, but some of the points the author raises seem interesting to me 2018-06-28T09:42:50Z lritter joined #scheme 2018-06-28T09:50:35Z surya quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2018-06-28T09:55:10Z nilg quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-06-28T10:24:22Z ManDay[m]: I can't relate to his argument to split out functions. Splitting out makes sense iff it is used from different places 2018-06-28T10:24:43Z ManDay[m]: Splitting out "just because you can" or "because the function is longer than 4 lines", as the author suggests, doesn't agree with my taste 2018-06-28T10:27:35Z amz31 quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2018-06-28T10:27:54Z ManDay[m]: (he does have a point with testability, readability perhaps, but that really depends on the case i think) 2018-06-28T10:48:24Z ecraven: ManDay[m]: I understand the notion that *naming* things well is a good thing, which really helps in understanding and debugging code, but to break things down as small as he does is indeed a bit religious, I think ;) 2018-06-28T11:00:56Z jao joined #scheme 2018-06-28T11:01:21Z smurfrobot joined #scheme 2018-06-28T11:02:02Z ManDay[m]: Hm, might want to remove the first link in /topic, as it goes: "Due to continued abuse, this service has been discontinued" 2018-06-28T11:02:10Z smurfrobot quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-06-28T11:02:31Z smurfrobot joined #scheme 2018-06-28T11:02:50Z ManDay[m]: https://paste.fedoraproject.org/paste/w71CpN0jAM0f0NMcLoZssA - Any idea why this runs into a stack-overflow with guile? fold-all should be tail recursive. 2018-06-28T11:03:16Z ecraven: Riastradh: ^ lisppaste seems dead :-/ 2018-06-28T11:03:25Z ecraven: is there a good place to paste Scheme code? otherwise, we should make one! 2018-06-28T11:04:41Z ManDay[m]: There are some (2?) online repls, eg https://repl.it/languages/scheme 2018-06-28T11:05:02Z ManDay[m]: (BiwaScheme is not particularly compatible tho...) 2018-06-28T11:06:59Z ecraven: lisppaste was only for pasting and syntax highlighting, no repl / evaluation 2018-06-28T11:08:23Z ManDay[m]: i guess there are plenty of pastebins with scheme syntax hl - problem is just picking a good one (fast, without ads) :) 2018-06-28T11:08:30Z ecraven: exactly 2018-06-28T11:08:51Z ecraven: if you know a good one, feel free to suggest it here. Riastradh has the power to change the topic, some others might have that too 2018-06-28T11:09:30Z ManDay[m]: i guess fedorapaste just disqualified :-D 2018-06-28T11:09:38Z ManDay[m] checks wgetpaste 2018-06-28T11:10:28Z ManDay[m]: wgetpaste has bpaste among others, which doesn't seem bad 2018-06-28T11:10:29Z ManDay[m]: https://bpaste.net/ 2018-06-28T11:10:53Z ManDay[m]: and then there is always gist.github, i guess 2018-06-28T11:12:33Z ManDay[m]: https://bpaste.net/show/cdb65146d0fd 2018-06-28T11:13:23Z ecraven: doesn't seem too bad 2018-06-28T11:15:28Z surya joined #scheme 2018-06-28T11:28:21Z ManDay[m]: Ah, I think I found my mistake... 2018-06-28T11:28:55Z ManDay[m]: It's exactly like what we discussed earlier... I have (f (g f)) which is not tail recursive :-( 2018-06-28T11:29:56Z ManDay[m]: That's because I just replaced the cons by (lambda (x,y) (+ 1 y)) - the x is effectivly discarded, but the compiler doesnt know 2018-06-28T11:31:01Z ManDay[m]: Hm... strange though... Can one then generally write a tail-recursive function which counts the number of its iterations? 2018-06-28T11:31:39Z ManDay[m]: I figure it would always be some kind of (+ 1 (f ...)) and that just has the same problems! 2018-06-28T11:32:44Z pie__ joined #scheme 2018-06-28T11:33:10Z ManDay[m]: Ah, silly me... I must pass the counter as argument... 2018-06-28T11:33:17Z ManDay[m]: (f (+ 1 count) ...) 2018-06-28T11:36:21Z jcowan quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-06-28T11:36:40Z pie_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-06-28T11:44:52Z amz31 joined #scheme 2018-06-28T11:46:59Z excelsior joined #scheme 2018-06-28T11:49:33Z X-Scale joined #scheme 2018-06-28T11:54:38Z pierpal quit (Quit: Poof) 2018-06-28T11:54:58Z pierpal joined #scheme 2018-06-28T12:09:55Z ecraven: exactly ;) 2018-06-28T12:10:16Z ecraven: I think of that as the "accumulator", which accumulates the result until it is returned when recursion stops 2018-06-28T12:16:52Z zooey quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-06-28T12:17:05Z zooey joined #scheme 2018-06-28T12:30:27Z jcowan joined #scheme 2018-06-28T12:41:03Z werkin joined #scheme 2018-06-28T12:52:26Z amz31 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-06-28T12:59:43Z TheGreekOwl quit (Quit: I must go, my planet needs me.) 2018-06-28T13:00:04Z TheGreekOwl joined #scheme 2018-06-28T13:10:42Z amz31 joined #scheme 2018-06-28T13:15:49Z werkin quit (Quit: Leaving) 2018-06-28T13:15:55Z pierpal quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-06-28T13:22:18Z robotoad joined #scheme 2018-06-28T13:29:07Z surya quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-06-28T13:30:05Z badkins joined #scheme 2018-06-28T13:31:01Z surya joined #scheme 2018-06-28T13:45:49Z TGO joined #scheme 2018-06-28T13:49:22Z TheGreekOwl quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-06-28T13:51:55Z surya quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-06-28T13:59:37Z robotoad quit (Quit: robotoad) 2018-06-28T14:04:34Z aanand` quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-06-28T14:14:46Z Inline joined #scheme 2018-06-28T14:19:41Z klovett quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-06-28T14:19:52Z klovett joined #scheme 2018-06-28T14:29:25Z Satou joined #scheme 2018-06-28T14:33:09Z dbmikus joined #scheme 2018-06-28T14:33:55Z robotoad joined #scheme 2018-06-28T14:42:49Z siiky joined #scheme 2018-06-28T14:44:13Z cortisol joined #scheme 2018-06-28T14:59:51Z ngz quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-06-28T15:13:11Z robotoad quit (Quit: robotoad) 2018-06-28T15:19:10Z siiky quit (Quit: Leaving) 2018-06-28T15:21:54Z robotoad joined #scheme 2018-06-28T15:27:01Z pierpal joined #scheme 2018-06-28T15:27:06Z greatscottttt quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.9) 2018-06-28T15:27:33Z groovy2shoes quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2018-06-28T15:55:34Z nisstyre: ecraven: isn't it named after actual accumulator registers in the CPU? 2018-06-28T15:55:57Z nisstyre: and accumulator is too f-ing long to type, so we type "acc" 2018-06-28T15:58:52Z ManDay[m]: Huh? But I already called it "accumulator" in my code...? 2018-06-28T16:01:11Z nisstyre: ManDay[m]: do you know about let* ? 2018-06-28T16:01:35Z nisstyre: you don't have to nest all those lets 2018-06-28T16:05:30Z civodul quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 26.1)) 2018-06-28T16:07:47Z ecraven: nisstyre: maybe ;) 2018-06-28T16:07:51Z pjb joined #scheme 2018-06-28T16:13:21Z Satou quit (Quit: exit();) 2018-06-28T16:14:52Z alezost joined #scheme 2018-06-28T16:16:49Z erkin joined #scheme 2018-06-28T16:17:09Z erkin quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-06-28T16:18:20Z sethalves joined #scheme 2018-06-28T16:20:19Z erkin joined #scheme 2018-06-28T16:30:30Z atlask joined #scheme 2018-06-28T16:32:18Z j3kyl_` joined #scheme 2018-06-28T16:33:20Z j3kyl_ quit (Read error: No route to host) 2018-06-28T16:40:38Z j3kyl_` quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-06-28T16:48:00Z surya joined #scheme 2018-06-28T16:54:35Z qu1j0t3: ...but not really 2018-06-28T16:58:27Z alezost quit (Quit: I live in GuixSD and Emacs ) 2018-06-28T16:59:46Z atlask quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-06-28T17:02:57Z amz31 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-06-28T17:07:34Z brendyn quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-06-28T17:11:52Z atlask joined #scheme 2018-06-28T17:17:11Z klovett quit 2018-06-28T17:21:03Z Labu joined #scheme 2018-06-28T17:21:35Z atlask quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.1) 2018-06-28T17:28:00Z dbmikus_ joined #scheme 2018-06-28T17:29:21Z dbmikus quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-06-28T17:33:04Z hugh_marera joined #scheme 2018-06-28T17:40:57Z surya quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-06-28T17:51:22Z excelsior quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2018-06-28T17:52:51Z klovett joined #scheme 2018-06-28T17:56:08Z excelsior joined #scheme 2018-06-28T17:59:03Z yumh quit (Quit: ZNC - 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Oysters. 2018-06-28T22:14:35Z Zipheir: blech 2018-06-28T22:15:32Z hugh_marera joined #scheme 2018-06-28T22:16:28Z yumh quit (Quit: ZNC - http://znc.in) 2018-06-28T22:17:03Z sethalves quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2018-06-28T22:17:12Z hugh_marera quit (Client Quit) 2018-06-28T22:19:30Z yumh joined #scheme 2018-06-28T22:22:34Z Menche quit (Quit: Leaving) 2018-06-28T22:23:21Z yumh quit (Client Quit) 2018-06-28T22:24:10Z skapata joined #scheme 2018-06-28T22:25:52Z yumh joined #scheme 2018-06-28T22:28:34Z yumh quit (Client Quit) 2018-06-28T22:29:47Z Zipheir: Curious, are there any active LLVM Scheme compilers out there? 2018-06-28T22:30:32Z wasamasa: Zipheir: all the ones compiling to C can surely pick clang as compiler :P 2018-06-28T22:30:59Z wasamasa: Zipheir: to be honest, I don't see why you'd want to target LLVM for a dynamic language 2018-06-28T22:31:15Z wasamasa: Zipheir: it's a huge dependency, keeps breaking compatibility and is designed for static languages 2018-06-28T22:32:02Z Zipheir: wasamasa: Good point. 2018-06-28T22:35:34Z Zipheir: I like the idea of LLVM, but the implementation... 2018-06-28T22:36:10Z wasamasa: I've toyed around with clasp long time ago, having to compile a llvm snapshot is ugh 2018-06-28T22:36:24Z wasamasa: not the thing for a weak thinkpad 2018-06-28T22:36:40Z Zipheir: Yeah, it's not exactly a performance win either :p 2018-06-28T22:38:05Z wasamasa: and finally, if you're not a fan of C++... 2018-06-28T22:38:22Z Zipheir: Ugh, indeed 2018-06-28T22:39:26Z Zipheir: I was just curious. Compiling Scheme to C requires some interesting contortions, and it's interesting to consider the lower-level alternatives. 2018-06-28T22:39:31Z wasamasa: there's an official C binding, but you still need to study C++ docs and examples to make sense of it 2018-06-28T22:41:50Z yumh joined #scheme 2018-06-28T22:43:29Z Zipheir: I was reading http://www.aosabook.org/en/llvm.html and it really is impressive how poor the abstraction is for people trying to work with LLVM. Most of the blame lies with the sucky abstraction available in C++, however. 2018-06-28T22:43:50Z Zipheir: Also, that article is funny for how TOTALLY AWESOME the authors think LLVM is. 2018-06-28T22:44:46Z Menche joined #scheme 2018-06-28T22:51:45Z Menche quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-06-28T22:52:10Z robotoad quit (Quit: robotoad) 2018-06-28T22:52:11Z Menche joined #scheme 2018-06-28T22:56:38Z yumh quit (Quit: ZNC - http://znc.in) 2018-06-28T22:59:35Z dbmikus__ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-06-28T23:01:55Z yumh joined #scheme 2018-06-28T23:06:11Z robotoad joined #scheme 2018-06-28T23:07:19Z jcowan quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2018-06-28T23:12:38Z ngz quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-06-28T23:13:51Z klovett quit 2018-06-28T23:14:46Z vicenteH quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-06-28T23:26:32Z light2yellow quit (Quit: light2yellow) 2018-06-28T23:56:36Z klovett joined #scheme 2018-06-29T00:06:23Z atlask joined #scheme 2018-06-29T00:13:56Z atlask quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-06-29T00:14:31Z siiky quit (Quit: Leaving) 2018-06-29T00:14:48Z robotoad quit (Quit: robotoad) 2018-06-29T00:16:57Z rain1 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-06-29T00:21:53Z zachk quit (Quit: Leaving) 2018-06-29T00:56:28Z jcowan joined #scheme 2018-06-29T00:59:25Z siraben joined #scheme 2018-06-29T01:02:05Z jcowan quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-06-29T01:18:07Z jcowan joined #scheme 2018-06-29T01:20:44Z rain1 joined #scheme 2018-06-29T01:21:28Z excelsior quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-06-29T01:21:37Z excelsior joined #scheme 2018-06-29T01:43:18Z robotoad joined #scheme 2018-06-29T01:48:30Z pjb quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-06-29T01:50:31Z robotoad quit (Quit: robotoad) 2018-06-29T01:56:03Z daviid quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-06-29T02:01:04Z brendyn joined #scheme 2018-06-29T02:06:59Z skapata quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-06-29T02:10:49Z robotoad joined #scheme 2018-06-29T02:18:51Z pie__ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2018-06-29T02:18:54Z pie_ joined #scheme 2018-06-29T02:23:22Z daviid joined #scheme 2018-06-29T02:33:45Z [X-Scale] joined #scheme 2018-06-29T02:35:35Z X-Scale quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-06-29T02:35:35Z [X-Scale] is now known as X-Scale 2018-06-29T02:37:16Z atlask joined #scheme 2018-06-29T02:40:20Z atlask quit (Client Quit) 2018-06-29T02:40:46Z atlask joined #scheme 2018-06-29T02:42:26Z pierpa quit (Quit: Page closed) 2018-06-29T02:58:24Z atlask quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.1) 2018-06-29T02:58:41Z excelsior quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2018-06-29T02:59:10Z excelsior joined #scheme 2018-06-29T03:11:10Z acarrico quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-06-29T03:25:56Z pierpal quit (Quit: Poof) 2018-06-29T03:26:13Z pierpal joined #scheme 2018-06-29T03:27:58Z Zipheir quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-06-29T03:28:24Z Zipheir joined #scheme 2018-06-29T03:28:27Z daviid quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-06-29T03:30:22Z excelsior quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-06-29T03:30:46Z excelsior joined #scheme 2018-06-29T03:38:11Z erkin quit (Quit: Ouch! Got SIGIRL, dying...) 2018-06-29T03:39:37Z daviid joined #scheme 2018-06-29T03:55:06Z atlask joined #scheme 2018-06-29T03:56:35Z atlask quit (Client Quit) 2018-06-29T03:57:21Z atlask joined #scheme 2018-06-29T03:57:47Z atlask quit (Client Quit) 2018-06-29T03:58:06Z atlask joined #scheme 2018-06-29T03:58:34Z atlask quit (Client Quit) 2018-06-29T03:58:51Z atlask joined #scheme 2018-06-29T03:59:00Z atlask quit (Client Quit) 2018-06-29T03:59:46Z atlask joined #scheme 2018-06-29T04:13:15Z nullcone quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2018-06-29T04:17:25Z dieggsy: can someone here explain to a noob why racket does so well in these benchmarks: https://ecraven.github.io/r7rs-benchmarks/ even in comparison to schemes that compile to C? Is racket's JIT compiler just amazing? 2018-06-29T04:18:19Z dieggsy: (i've run a couple on my own computer with similar results, FWIW, not just taking it at face value) 2018-06-29T04:24:22Z atlask quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.1) 2018-06-29T04:26:20Z atlask joined #scheme 2018-06-29T04:33:58Z pie_ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-06-29T04:37:33Z atlask quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.1) 2018-06-29T04:48:59Z atlask joined #scheme 2018-06-29T04:55:05Z atlask quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.1) 2018-06-29T05:00:00Z trui` left #scheme 2018-06-29T05:03:56Z atlask joined #scheme 2018-06-29T05:04:00Z atlask quit (Client Quit) 2018-06-29T05:05:56Z Inline quit (Quit: Leaving) 2018-06-29T05:07:38Z atlask joined #scheme 2018-06-29T05:08:21Z atlask quit (Client Quit) 2018-06-29T05:18:46Z werkin joined #scheme 2018-06-29T05:23:20Z iskander joined #scheme 2018-06-29T05:45:50Z fiddlerwoaroof joined #scheme 2018-06-29T06:03:11Z InPhase: dieggsy: In my much more brief benchmarking tests for my own purposes, I found that racket was about half as fast as with chez compiled down to native code. However when chez runs straight without compiling first, it's about 3 times slower than when compiled to native. So racket's interpreter seems to outperform the chez interpreter when used in that mode. 2018-06-29T06:05:38Z InPhase: dieggsy: However, it appears racket is being rewritten right now so that it will be implemented to run on chez. What that means for the future of performance is an interesting open question. https://github.com/racket/racket7 2018-06-29T06:09:05Z jao quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2018-06-29T06:16:29Z klovett quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-06-29T06:16:59Z klovett joined #scheme 2018-06-29T06:17:07Z daviid quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-06-29T06:21:38Z excelsio1 joined #scheme 2018-06-29T06:21:57Z excelsior quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-06-29T06:33:00Z klovett quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-06-29T06:33:10Z klovett joined #scheme 2018-06-29T06:53:45Z robotoad quit (Quit: robotoad) 2018-06-29T07:02:04Z nilg joined #scheme 2018-06-29T07:18:39Z greatscottttt joined #scheme 2018-06-29T07:25:09Z klovett quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-06-29T07:25:24Z klovett joined #scheme 2018-06-29T07:25:57Z klovett quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-06-29T07:26:26Z klovett joined #scheme 2018-06-29T07:35:00Z klovett quit (Remote host closed the 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I wasn't aware of CLASP. 2018-06-29T17:14:15Z jcowan: It's very new and not finished yet 2018-06-29T17:25:43Z vicenteH joined #scheme 2018-06-29T17:27:01Z j3kyl_ joined #scheme 2018-06-29T17:33:02Z jao quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2018-06-29T17:33:12Z nilg quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-06-29T17:35:50Z hugh_marera quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2018-06-29T17:37:00Z spectrumgomas[m] joined #scheme 2018-06-29T17:37:01Z remix2000[m] joined #scheme 2018-06-29T17:37:01Z happy_gnu[m] joined #scheme 2018-06-29T17:37:01Z mbakke joined #scheme 2018-06-29T17:37:01Z plll[m] joined #scheme 2018-06-29T17:37:01Z eatonphil joined #scheme 2018-06-29T17:37:03Z ArthurAGleckler[ joined #scheme 2018-06-29T17:37:03Z willghatch[m] joined #scheme 2018-06-29T17:37:08Z DeeEff joined #scheme 2018-06-29T17:37:11Z M-krsiehl joined #scheme 2018-06-29T17:38:27Z terpri quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-06-29T17:38:47Z hugh_marera joined #scheme 2018-06-29T17:43:26Z light2yellow quit (Quit: light2yellow) 2018-06-29T17:46:55Z ngz quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-06-29T17:51:52Z j3kyl_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-06-29T17:52:34Z X-Scale quit (Quit: HydraIRC -> http://www.hydrairc.com <- \o/) 2018-06-29T17:59:46Z ecraven: #clasp here on freenode is very interesting, lots of discussion going on 2018-06-29T18:00:33Z Zipheir: Is it horrible to think that the idea of another Common Lisp is depressing? 2018-06-29T18:00:55Z sethalves quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2018-06-29T18:01:43Z ecraven: I don't think it is ;) clasp is actually very interesting, I don't think anything else has that sort of c++ interoperability 2018-06-29T18:02:21Z Zipheir: It sounds vaguely like a C++ analogue of Clojure... 2018-06-29T18:02:45Z vicenteH quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2018-06-29T18:03:08Z blt joined #scheme 2018-06-29T18:03:08Z blt quit (Changing host) 2018-06-29T18:03:08Z blt joined #scheme 2018-06-29T18:03:43Z vicenteH joined #scheme 2018-06-29T18:03:55Z ecraven: personally, I haven't seen any Scheme that comes even remotely close in terms of introspection and ease of development in a "world" system setting to CL :-/ and I've looked quite a bit. 2018-06-29T18:04:33Z Zipheir: "world" system setting? 2018-06-29T18:04:50Z ecraven: like smalltalk or CL, you have a "world" image that you work on 2018-06-29T18:04:56Z Zipheir: Ah, got it. 2018-06-29T18:04:57Z ecraven: as opposed to editing files, compiling them and getting an executable 2018-06-29T18:05:07Z ByronJohnson joined #scheme 2018-06-29T18:05:09Z ecraven: sorry, not sure how to properly describe it 2018-06-29T18:05:33Z Riastradh: The world kinda moved on from the idea of images like that. They make clean reproducible builds essentially impossible. 2018-06-29T18:05:43Z fadein joined #scheme 2018-06-29T18:06:01Z Zipheir: The world moved on from "worlds"? 2018-06-29T18:06:36Z ecraven: Riastradh: maybe there could be some middle ground, where you *develop* in a world, but *deploy* from scratch 2018-06-29T18:07:18Z Zipheir: Isn't this the basic insight of containerization (albeit at a different layer)? 2018-06-29T18:08:03Z hugh_marera quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2018-06-29T18:08:30Z lavaflow joined #scheme 2018-06-29T18:09:10Z dmiles joined #scheme 2018-06-29T18:10:08Z gnomon: Zipheir, I don't think it is, no, because you generally don't then edit your image definition from the set of tools within the image. But there is some conceptual overlap. 2018-06-29T18:10:26Z gnomon: And that's an interesting insight. 2018-06-29T18:10:45Z ecraven: I don't even care so much about having a consistent "world" as I care about introspecting and mutating the *running* program 2018-06-29T18:10:48Z Zipheir: gnomon, right, that's the big difference. 2018-06-29T18:10:56Z hugh_marera joined #scheme 2018-06-29T18:12:38Z Zipheir: Is there a name for "world semantics", or a good list of languages that have them? 2018-06-29T18:13:01Z ecraven: the ones I know are CL, Smalltalk, MIT/GNU Scheme, Self 2018-06-29T18:14:12Z gnomon: Zipheir, I have mostly heard them described as "image based languages", à la http://wiki.c2.com/?ImageBasedLanguage 2018-06-29T18:14:31Z Zipheir: Cool, ty, gnomon 2018-06-29T18:17:18Z Zipheir: 'Integration with a version control system might be difficult...' Holy hell, yes. 2018-06-29T18:17:48Z ecraven: Zipheir: I'm not sure I agree with that 2018-06-29T18:17:49Z klovett joined #scheme 2018-06-29T18:17:59Z ecraven: well, "might" is hard to disagree with ;) 2018-06-29T18:18:35Z Zipheir: OK, as described, I could see that being a problem. 2018-06-29T18:18:55Z Zipheir: But I'm just finding out about this whole image-based thing. 2018-06-29T18:18:56Z gnomon: ecraven, would you agree with "integration _in practice_ with _an existing_ version control system might be difficult"? 2018-06-29T18:19:26Z ecraven: I've played around with Open Genera (a lisp machine), and that is what I'd *like* development to be like. (though I've not deployed anything, so there might be huge problems there) 2018-06-29T18:19:31Z zachk joined #scheme 2018-06-29T18:19:31Z zachk quit (Changing host) 2018-06-29T18:19:31Z zachk joined #scheme 2018-06-29T18:19:52Z ecraven: gnomon: well, if you have an editor to edit functions, even in-image, why couldn't that editor create a new commit when you "apply" your changes? 2018-06-29T18:20:08Z ecraven: of course, if you have a repl and just type random stuff there, that's harder, but that is probably just not the right way to go about this 2018-06-29T18:20:15Z klovett quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2018-06-29T18:20:39Z klovett joined #scheme 2018-06-29T18:20:54Z acarrico quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2018-06-29T18:20:55Z jao joined #scheme 2018-06-29T18:22:10Z gnomon: ecraven, yeah, I'm not saying it's impossible in theory - in fact my experience of using magit with emacs comes close to the thing you're describing, and I love it - but it's not exactly a common or expected way of using most of the existing tooling. It's hard to make a very strong argument in favour of a particular model when all the benefits are theoretical and all the requirements are designs rather 2018-06-29T18:22:17Z gnomon: than implementations. 2018-06-29T18:23:01Z ecraven: gnomon: yea, maybe I'm not expressing what I'm thinking very well, what I love is the way you can inspect and interact with the running system. I don't care quite as much whether you can save and restore the entire state 2018-06-29T18:23:05Z surya joined #scheme 2018-06-29T18:23:29Z gnomon: I love that too! 2018-06-29T18:23:42Z gnomon: It feels like a huge productivity enabler. 2018-06-29T18:23:44Z ecraven: I believe Erlang has some of what I'd like in that you can apply hot patches in a running system without actually restarting anything 2018-06-29T18:24:35Z ecraven: gnomon: and in that respect, CL is still *far* ahead of anything else I've seen :-/ just look at what SLIME can do debugging-wise 2018-06-29T18:24:35Z pierpal quit (Quit: Poof) 2018-06-29T18:25:13Z pierpal joined #scheme 2018-06-29T18:25:47Z Zipheir: ecraven: Yeah, that is a major advantage. 2018-06-29T18:25:59Z gnomon: Agreed! 2018-06-29T18:26:34Z ecraven: I don't think this is because it wouldn't be possible in Scheme, just that no implementation has done it (yet). 2018-06-29T18:27:21Z surya quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-06-29T18:32:29Z ecraven: MIT/GNU Scheme is the closest I've found that supports a lot of what I love ;) 2018-06-29T18:32:41Z ecraven: thus I'm really happy that it has seen a lot of work recently, lots of interesting changes 2018-06-29T18:39:33Z badkins_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-06-29T18:42:32Z badkins joined #scheme 2018-06-29T18:43:32Z bigfondue quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2018-06-29T18:45:53Z hugh_marera quit (Quit: hugh_marera) 2018-06-29T19:03:48Z pierpal quit (Quit: Poof) 2018-06-29T19:04:05Z pierpal joined #scheme 2018-06-29T19:04:29Z bigfondue joined #scheme 2018-06-29T19:04:30Z smurfrobot joined #scheme 2018-06-29T19:05:01Z smurfrobot quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2018-06-29T19:13:03Z nivpgir joined #scheme 2018-06-29T19:17:50Z daviid joined #scheme 2018-06-29T19:18:55Z equalsra1 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-06-29T19:21:05Z nivpgir quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2018-06-29T19:30:03Z klm2is joined #scheme 2018-06-29T19:34:14Z terpri joined #scheme 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2018-06-29T21:05:38Z badkins quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2018-06-29T21:08:59Z jcowan_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2018-06-29T21:12:05Z jcowan joined #scheme 2018-06-29T21:14:42Z jcowan: Deployment in image systems is done by a treeshaker, something that removes whatever is not required for a particular application 2018-06-29T21:14:59Z jcowan: Of course it is not a language but an implementation that is file-based or image-based 2018-06-29T21:15:15Z jcowan: Lisp is file-based because Maclisp (file) beat Interlisp (image) a long time ago 2018-06-29T21:15:30Z jcowan: Squeak and friends are image-based, GNU ST and Little ST are file-based 2018-06-29T21:21:33Z civodul quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 26.1)) 2018-06-29T21:22:27Z pjb: jcowan: almost all CL implementations have a save list image function, and you can work and develop your program in an image based workflow, if you want. 2018-06-29T21:23:10Z pjb: People did that very consistently to develop application in CL in the 90s, eg. on Macintosh. 2018-06-29T21:23:30Z jcowan nods 2018-06-29T21:23:37Z pjb: (And updating the code to work with the current file-based development style was quite a work). 2018-06-29T21:24:04Z jcowan: In Squeak there is both an image and a source-code log, but there are bits in that image that are older than 1980 and have no corresponding source. 2018-06-29T21:24:20Z jcowan: (1980 as in Smalltalk-80) 2018-06-29T21:25:15Z pjb: with emacs and slime, we turn the image-based development inside out to keep saving files :-) 2018-06-29T21:25:46Z jcowan: I note though that Lisps don't have portable images 2018-06-29T21:26:07Z pjb: But I have the idea of an emacs extension that would manage the loading and saving of toplevel forms in files automatically, and present a brower of toplevel forms (perhaps not unlike the Smalltalk browser), so the developper wouldn't have to care where the toplevel forms are stored. 2018-06-29T21:26:32Z jcowan: There's an Interlisp feature like that, but I forget what it's called 2018-06-29T21:26:35Z pjb: indeed. But are Smalltalk images portable? IIRC, not from one Squeak version to another. 2018-06-29T21:33:15Z qu1j0t3: in a sense they are since they contain all classes? so should be portable between compatible virtual machines. (i'm not referring to Squeak here but more Smalltalk-80) 2018-06-29T21:33:41Z qu1j0t3: contain all class implementations, so are self-consistent? 2018-06-29T21:34:43Z enderby` joined #scheme 2018-06-29T21:35:53Z enderby` left #scheme 2018-06-29T21:36:38Z enderby quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2018-06-29T21:44:17Z pjb: Yes. 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No, it is an acronym for "Read-Eval-Print-Loop" 2018-06-30T16:03:21Z klovett joined #scheme 2018-06-30T16:06:51Z klovett_ quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2018-06-30T16:21:31Z wasamasa: amz3: guile will switch to rpython? 2018-06-30T16:24:12Z wasamasa: amz3: link? 2018-06-30T16:37:29Z johndoe231 joined #scheme 2018-06-30T16:40:12Z brendyn quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2018-06-30T16:45:37Z net4all joined #scheme 2018-06-30T17:08:01Z light2yellow joined #scheme 2018-06-30T17:08:52Z siiky joined #scheme 2018-06-30T17:09:30Z robotoad joined #scheme 2018-06-30T17:17:00Z amz3: not switch, but it will be possible https://www.mail-archive.com/guile-devel@gnu.org/msg14526.html 2018-06-30T17:17:15Z amz3: it will be nice to have a chez backend to guile :D 2018-06-30T17:17:28Z amz3: so many things are done right in guile 2018-06-30T17:17:35Z amz3: and so many are done right in chez 2018-06-30T17:17:45Z wasamasa: neither do r5rs/r7rs :P 2018-06-30T17:18:32Z amz3: as usual 2018-06-30T17:18:52Z amz3: I don't know r5rs; IIRC I learned scheme reading r6rs 2018-06-30T17:19:10Z amz3: I don't know r7rs either 2018-06-30T17:19:20Z wasamasa: the above link doesn't mention chez at all 2018-06-30T17:20:01Z wasamasa: ah, https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/guile-devel/2018-04/msg00004.html does 2018-06-30T17:20:59Z robotoad quit (Quit: robotoad) 2018-06-30T17:21:13Z amz3: hmm seems like I can continue my journey in guile not sure 2018-06-30T17:21:30Z amz3: I change my mind about scheme vm every two weeks 2018-06-30T17:23:58Z wasamasa: or perhaps I'm wrong about r5rs in guile, why else would it include a r5rs info manual 2018-06-30T17:24:05Z wasamasa: it's its r7rs support that's laughable 2018-06-30T17:25:10Z johndoe231 quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-06-30T17:26:56Z amz3: not finished indeed 2018-06-30T17:27:23Z amz3: also IIRC there is bug WRT to delay/force 2018-06-30T17:27:37Z amz3: or it's a standard problem not sure 2018-06-30T17:29:08Z robotoad joined #scheme 2018-06-30T17:30:54Z skapata quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-06-30T17:48:02Z Zipheir` joined #scheme 2018-06-30T17:56:55Z edgar-rft quit (Quit: edgar-rft) 2018-06-30T18:02:27Z nivpgir quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-06-30T18:21:17Z sethalves quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2018-06-30T18:22:05Z nilg` quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-06-30T18:27:26Z lavaflow quit (Read error: No route to host) 2018-06-30T18:29:20Z johndoe231 joined #scheme 2018-06-30T18:29:24Z lavaflow joined #scheme 2018-06-30T18:36:16Z pjb joined #scheme 2018-06-30T18:42:38Z ecraven: wasamasa: I have shims for most of the r7rs functions for chez, my main problem is that define-library is not supported (and I don't think it *can* be supported short of adding it to chez's core) 2018-06-30T18:46:40Z nilg joined #scheme 2018-06-30T18:50:34Z j3kyl_ joined #scheme 2018-06-30T18:58:03Z wasamasa: ecraven: that also leaves loading modules 2018-06-30T18:58:51Z ecraven: things work fine with r6rs modules (so I just write (library (foo) (export ..) (import ...)) and then r7rs code 2018-06-30T18:58:55Z johndoe231 quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.0.1) 2018-06-30T18:59:22Z wasamasa: hohum 2018-06-30T18:59:24Z ecraven: that works, but to use those modules on r7rs schemes, you'd have to replace library by define-library (the rest seems to work fine, at least on the limited subset of the library / define-library form I use) 2018-06-30T19:00:30Z pie_ joined #scheme 2018-06-30T19:19:29Z nilg quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2018-06-30T19:22:58Z X-Scale joined #scheme 2018-06-30T19:23:10Z jao quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-06-30T19:27:45Z j3kyl_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-06-30T19:28:23Z jcowan joined #scheme 2018-06-30T19:30:15Z jcowan_ quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2018-06-30T19:34:12Z jcowan: ecraven: Someone should write a portable preprocessor that takes a define-library form and makes it into a library form. 2018-06-30T19:34:38Z ecraven: jcowan: akku can do that, but I'd prefer to just run the exact same code, instead of changing it to fit various implementations :-/ 2018-06-30T19:35:46Z jcowan: Ah, I wasn't aware that it could translate between the two 2018-06-30T19:36:07Z ecraven: not sure how many Schemes it supports right now, but I think weinholt plans to support even more 2018-06-30T19:37:14Z jcowan: anyhow, I wasn't thinking of a complete R7->R6 converter, just something that can overcome the library/define-library syntax issue 2018-06-30T19:38:11Z ecraven: yea, but I'd much prefer *all* implementations to just get on with it and support r7rs-small :P 2018-06-30T19:39:58Z jcowan: Well, they won't, so "needs must when the devil drives" 2018-06-30T19:41:14Z ecraven: aye :-/ I've started a tentative r7rs syntax PR for chez, just to get #\escape and #\null in, but no reaction so far 2018-06-30T19:41:35Z jcowan: you can always put (redundant) quotes on vector literals 2018-06-30T19:41:50Z ecraven: ah, but I don't *want* to :-/ 2018-06-30T19:42:06Z ecraven: I actually *want* to write r7rs code 2018-06-30T19:42:31Z jcowan too 2018-06-30T19:44:26Z zachk joined #scheme 2018-06-30T19:44:27Z zachk quit (Changing host) 2018-06-30T19:44:27Z zachk joined #scheme 2018-06-30T19:45:49Z j3kyl_ joined #scheme 2018-06-30T19:47:39Z pierpal quit (Quit: Poof) 2018-06-30T19:47:40Z jcob joined #scheme 2018-06-30T19:47:55Z pierpal joined #scheme 2018-06-30T19:52:04Z jcowan: I think all the define-library declarations except include-ci would be trivial to handle, producing a set of self-contained foo.*.sls files, one for each clause of any cond-expands 2018-06-30T19:53:18Z badkins joined #scheme 2018-06-30T20:01:57Z pierpal quit (Quit: Poof) 2018-06-30T20:02:13Z pierpal joined #scheme 2018-06-30T20:02:47Z duncanm: la la la 2018-06-30T20:11:16Z groovy2shoes joined #scheme 2018-06-30T20:13:09Z Menche joined #scheme 2018-06-30T20:13:40Z jcowan_ joined #scheme 2018-06-30T20:15:06Z jcowan quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2018-06-30T20:29:48Z jcob quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 26.1)) 2018-06-30T20:30:21Z jcob joined #scheme 2018-06-30T20:31:20Z weinholt: jcowan_, that's more or less how akku does it 2018-06-30T20:35:55Z light2yellow quit (Quit: light2yellow) 2018-06-30T20:41:30Z jcowan_: makes sense 2018-06-30T20:42:03Z jcowan_: it would be a Good Thing if that R7->R6 translator could be isolated as a stand-alone, for the sake of Guile and Chez primarily 2018-06-30T20:46:52Z clog quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2018-06-30T20:47:45Z pierpal quit (Quit: Poof) 2018-06-30T20:48:04Z pierpal joined #scheme 2018-06-30T20:50:19Z daviid joined #scheme 2018-06-30T21:00:19Z [X-Scale] joined #scheme 2018-06-30T21:00:50Z jcob quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2018-06-30T21:01:37Z lritter quit (Quit: Leaving) 2018-06-30T21:01:54Z hugh_marera joined #scheme 2018-06-30T21:01:58Z X-Scale quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2018-06-30T21:01:59Z [X-Scale] is now known as X-Scale 2018-06-30T21:09:11Z j3kyl_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-06-30T21:15:37Z pierp joined 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