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2018-05-01T01:31:18Z slayne: Hello
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2018-05-01T01:39:04Z slayne: Is there something similar to a c struct in scheme? (I'm usgin chicken scheme)
2018-05-01T01:41:21Z duncanm: Records?
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2018-05-01T01:45:05Z Zipheir: slayne: Yeah, records are the closest analogy. Chicken specific: https://wiki.call-cc.org/man/4/Non-standard%20macros%20and%20special%20forms#record-structures
2018-05-01T01:46:12Z slayne: Yes thank you, I just launched myself into sicp, great fun :)
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2018-05-01T02:30:23Z pierpa: what a luck to be able to read SICP for the first time!
2018-05-01T02:35:32Z Zipheir: it's like the first hearing Bach
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2018-05-01T02:41:24Z pierpa: exactly!
2018-05-01T02:46:43Z slayne: I'm not even in uni (yet), just learning for fun.
2018-05-01T02:48:13Z Zipheir: good!
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2018-05-01T03:19:01Z slayne: I've been trying to compile 2 .scm file, but I just don't get how I'm supposed to include one of them in the other.. Any tips?
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2018-05-01T03:19:38Z jcowan: slayne: I escaped university forty years ago, and I am learning for fun too
2018-05-01T03:20:44Z slayne: Well I'm still bothering my wife so she lets me complete a comp sci degree, I'm 28, never too late :)
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2018-05-01T03:24:34Z slayne: Sometimes I just wish I would have found programming & linux earlier..
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2018-05-01T14:52:26Z DGASAU: jcowan_: it's strange, but I have met another person who shares your weird understanding of who is "Russian".
2018-05-01T14:52:53Z jcowan_: What is my weird understanding?
2018-05-01T14:54:07Z DGASAU: You formulated it something like "if you speak Russian and other Russians think you're Russian, you're Russian."
2018-05-01T14:55:27Z DGASAU: (While here, I congratulate all socialists and communists with Solidarity Day.)
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2018-05-01T15:24:15Z wasamasa: ah, great
2018-05-01T15:24:38Z wasamasa: that reminds me of this one guy writing in russian on mastodon who was asked to join some soviet federation group
2018-05-01T15:24:49Z wasamasa: then someone pointed out he's not actually russian, but the other russian didn't mind
2018-05-01T15:25:05Z wasamasa: he was certainly russian enough to them
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2018-05-01T15:53:30Z akkad: DGASAU: must be some proficiency level in russian one has to meet. or drinking level :P
2018-05-01T15:54:12Z akkad: "you speak russian too happily to be russian."
2018-05-01T15:55:50Z jcowan_: That's more or less a general definition of ethnicity: you need both internal and external acceptance.
2018-05-01T15:56:26Z jcowan_: Formally, a Jew is someone whose mother is a Jew, but this recursion has no base case, so in practice if you call yourself a Jew and so do other Jews, you are a Jew.
2018-05-01T15:58:58Z jcowan_: I remember reading a blog post by someone who had severe identity problems in Russia:  "What are you?"  "A Canadian."  "No, that's a citizenship."  "A Moravian, then."  "No, that's a religion."  He had no further answers to give.
2018-05-01T15:59:10Z wasamasa: isn't one level of recursion enough?
2018-05-01T15:59:48Z wasamasa: I identify myself as german because it shaped me to the degree of behaving distinctively german
2018-05-01T15:59:56Z wasamasa: even though I wasn't born in germany
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2018-05-01T16:18:58Z cgay: how does one behave distinctively german?
2018-05-01T16:19:37Z wasamasa: pedantery basically
2018-05-01T16:19:43Z cgay: as someone with a german mother, i have ideas, but i'd like to hear yours. :)
2018-05-01T16:19:53Z wasamasa: a phrase exemplifying this would be "Zum Lachen in den Keller gehen"
2018-05-01T16:20:16Z wasamasa: which translates to going to the basement for laughing
2018-05-01T16:20:47Z cgay: haha
2018-05-01T16:22:24Z wasamasa: another one is a joke I heard in french class, that if germans were to do a hostile take-over of a railway station, each of them would first buy a ticket before entering
2018-05-01T16:23:52Z wasamasa: this made more sense at a time where you bought tickets outside the railway station...
2018-05-01T16:24:14Z erkin: Does Scheme have docstrings?
2018-05-01T16:24:19Z wasamasa: nope
2018-05-01T16:24:36Z wasamasa: there's a CHICKEN egg for creating docs from docstrings which are defined with read syntax
2018-05-01T16:24:38Z erkin: What's the canonical way of describing functions to humans?
2018-05-01T16:24:47Z erkin: Just comments?
2018-05-01T16:24:56Z wasamasa: documentation is kept separate from source code
2018-05-01T16:25:03Z wasamasa: no idea how others do it
2018-05-01T16:25:05Z erkin: Ah hm.
2018-05-01T16:25:14Z cgay: separate how?
2018-05-01T16:25:25Z wasamasa: there's the CHICKEN wiki where all documentation is hosted
2018-05-01T16:25:32Z wasamasa: there's also the bundled manual
2018-05-01T16:25:58Z erkin: I was thinking more like adding documentation to my own code.
2018-05-01T16:26:10Z jcowan_: There are comment conventions
2018-05-01T16:26:32Z wasamasa: you could define a comment macro :P
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2018-05-01T16:26:48Z wasamasa: but it's kind of silly because those are intended for code, not text
2018-05-01T16:26:48Z jcowan_: ;;; for a title, ;;; for a procedure comment, ;; (aligned) for an intraprocedure comment, and ; for a same-line comment
2018-05-01T16:26:58Z wasamasa: and the result doesn't become part of the function/variable definition
2018-05-01T16:27:23Z erkin: Does CHICKEN support #| comments? |#
2018-05-01T16:27:34Z jcowan_: yes
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2018-05-01T16:27:48Z erkin: That's nice.
2018-05-01T16:28:26Z Kooda: The most useful to me is: #;
2018-05-01T16:28:37Z wasamasa: indeed
2018-05-01T16:28:42Z wasamasa: I never used #| |#
2018-05-01T16:28:49Z jcowan: wasamasa: In Israel, all personal law (who you can marry, e.g.) is religious in nature, although civil marriages made outside Israel are recognized
2018-05-01T16:28:59Z jcowan: so it matters very much who is a Jew there.
2018-05-01T16:29:18Z jcowan: The Orthodox rabbis who control the system, for example, do not recognize conversions made by Reform rabbis in the U.S.
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2018-05-01T16:29:58Z jcowan: And they are getting increasingly fussy about being able to prove back to the Nth generation whether your mother, grandmother, etc. were Jewish
2018-05-01T16:30:06Z wasamasa: oh well
2018-05-01T16:30:31Z wasamasa: I guess they won't care about my father then
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2018-05-01T16:35:36Z DGASAU: No idea why Moravian is a religion now...
2018-05-01T16:35:54Z DGASAU: As for the case of Canadian, it is weird.
2018-05-01T16:36:14Z jcowan: It's the name used in English for the Unitas Fratrum, the descendants of the Bohemian (pre-Luther) Reformation
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2018-05-01T16:37:04Z jcowan: Countries of immigration tend to be civic nationalist and typically have jus loci (citizenship by birth in the country).
2018-05-01T16:37:18Z jcowan: They are neither empires nor nation-states, but a third thing
2018-05-01T16:37:47Z DGASAU: He can easily tell that he is French/English Canadian of some Chech descent.
2018-05-01T16:38:20Z jcowan: Some can and some cannot.
2018-05-01T16:38:50Z jcowan: A friend of mine comes from California, and the furthest he can trace his ancestry is Kansas City.  (His surname is not itself traceable)
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2018-05-01T16:39:37Z DGASAU: All that is pretty easy to solve.
2018-05-01T16:39:53Z DGASAU: Is he WASP?
2018-05-01T16:40:31Z jcowan: Who knows?  His paternal ancestry may be Hungarian for all he can tell
2018-05-01T16:40:38Z DGASAU: Doesn't matter.
2018-05-01T16:40:53Z DGASAU: In Russia it is culture that matters.
2018-05-01T16:41:15Z wasamasa: mhh
2018-05-01T16:41:23Z DGASAU: If he lives within WASP cultural standards, he is just "US American".
2018-05-01T16:41:25Z wasamasa: I recognize russian culture in others, but not so much in myself
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2018-05-01T16:42:48Z DGASAU: You can be easily be of some really weird descent, like Korean, and still be Russian, if you follow Russian customs in your daily life.
2018-05-01T16:43:33Z wasamasa: that wouldn't be too weird, considering their carrot salad came from korean immigrants
2018-05-01T16:44:07Z jcowan: That means Russia is becoming civic nationalist
2018-05-01T16:44:28Z DGASAU: jcowan: it has nearly always been.
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2018-05-01T16:44:30Z jcowan: or perhaps it just means it is still an empire of a non-ethnic sort, like the Ottomans
2018-05-01T16:44:33Z DGASAU: wasamasa: E.g. I have met a person whose name is Афанасий Хон.
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2018-05-01T16:46:47Z DGASAU: jcowan: oh, don't tell me that you have no difference between WASPs and, say, Latinoes there.
2018-05-01T16:47:13Z jcowan: Sure.  Civic nationalism can look like empire to people who are excluded from it.
2018-05-01T16:47:28Z jcowan: But believe me, "WASP" does not mean just any old white person, or even any white Protestant
2018-05-01T16:47:59Z DGASAU: What I see here is that there's little difference between protestants and catholics.
2018-05-01T16:48:15Z jcowan shrugs
2018-05-01T16:48:16Z DGASAU: (Actually, both groups are nothing but latin heretics.)
2018-05-01T16:48:21Z jcowan: Sure.
2018-05-01T16:48:33Z jcowan: It's all about perspective.  From the Martian point of view, all humans look exactly the same.
2018-05-01T16:49:28Z DGASAU: For me WASP is just a convenient name for people sharing or being very close to anglo-saxon culture.
2018-05-01T16:49:42Z jcowan: Ask the English!
2018-05-01T16:50:28Z DGASAU: I mean all those USA people.
2018-05-01T16:50:54Z DGASAU: British English may have slightly different culture.
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2018-05-01T16:51:21Z jcowan: Very different
2018-05-01T16:51:43Z DGASAU: I know.
2018-05-01T16:52:13Z DGASAU: What I mean is that for me "WASP" is not what acronym says, it is denotation for people of specific culture.
2018-05-01T16:52:36Z jcowan: http://www.zompist.com/amercult.html
2018-05-01T16:53:41Z akkad always wondered why 75% of Asia, aka Russia, does not qualify as 'Asian'
2018-05-01T16:54:10Z akkad: Asia Major, at least
2018-05-01T16:54:12Z DGASAU: akkad: because Asia is where Turkey is. :p
2018-05-01T16:54:29Z akkad: Assuwa. Asia Minor
2018-05-01T16:54:41Z akkad: From the Hittite name for the people there, yes
2018-05-01T16:54:43Z DGASAU: Because Russia contains about 1/3 of Europe, and that's the primary land.
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2018-05-01T16:55:38Z jcowan: There are plenty of people who think "Europe" doesn't extend past St. Petersburg
2018-05-01T16:55:41Z DGASAU: Maybe even something like 2/5.
2018-05-01T16:56:17Z DGASAU: jcowan: I have learned that there still exist people who believe that Earth is plain. :)
2018-05-01T16:56:35Z jcowan: Or claim to.  Who knows what they really think?
2018-05-01T16:57:27Z jcowan: "The devil himself knows not the mind of man."
2018-05-01T16:57:35Z DGASAU: Well... I have run into weird case of herecy once.
2018-05-01T16:58:36Z jcowan: Tell me.
2018-05-01T16:58:55Z DGASAU: An older woman told me that (claiming that she is christian), "Well... Tatars believe into one single god too... It must be the same god."
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2018-05-01T17:00:08Z jcowan: Well, yes, that's orthodox in the West
2018-05-01T17:00:39Z jcowan: It's been a long time since we thought Muslims worshipped Muhammad
2018-05-01T17:00:47Z DGASAU: This prompted very tricky questions from me.
2018-05-01T17:01:55Z DGASAU: jcowan: there is pretty clear decision from very old counsils(?) that islamic god is not christian god (and thus false god).
2018-05-01T17:02:24Z pjb: The Russian bear as a big head, but it hides an even bigger body :-)
2018-05-01T17:02:24Z jcowan: Well, it may be heresy, but it's not weird (in the sense of "minor belief of a few people")
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2018-05-01T17:03:21Z jcowan: anyway, meeting
2018-05-01T17:03:55Z DGASAU: jcowan: the question is that this "minor belief" definitely contradicts one of fundamental decisions, yet under some additional conditions, that woman could be considered as pretty pious christian by some clergyman.
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2018-05-01T18:32:36Z akkad feels dumb asking this. what is the function of the ellipsis in scheme?
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2018-05-01T18:34:10Z Riastradh: Repetition in pattern-matching for syntax-rules macros.  It's like the star in regular expressions: `(foo)*' matches any number of repetitions of foo.
2018-05-01T18:36:53Z gwatt: and any time the ellipsis follows an identifier in the pattern, it must follow (at some level) that identifier in the code
2018-05-01T18:38:50Z akkad: thanks
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2018-05-01T19:03:19Z foojin: Is it ok to pass an ellipsis to a macro which expands into a definition of another macro with the "..." replaced by it?
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2018-05-01T19:10:26Z gwatt: maybe
2018-05-01T19:14:59Z gwatt: I think to pass a literal "..." for use with syntax-defining syntax you need to use (... ...)
2018-05-01T19:15:20Z wasamasa: fun
2018-05-01T19:21:50Z jcowan: It's used only in macros to indicate that a syntactic pattern is repeated 0 or more times (like * in a regular expression)
2018-05-01T19:22:07Z jcowan: oops, I have been superseded
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2018-05-01T19:22:59Z Zipheir: wasamasa: I envy you being able to get to that Chicken longboat thing. All the fun happens in Europe, it seems :-(
2018-05-01T19:23:28Z jcowan: There's a fair amount of Scheme in the US East Coast, but not so much meeting-oriented
2018-05-01T19:23:45Z jcowan: NYC has a monthly Lisp Meetup that includes Schemers
2018-05-01T19:24:06Z jcowan: it rotates between CL/Scheme/Clojure
2018-05-01T19:24:15Z Zipheir: jcowan, that's good to hear.
2018-05-01T19:24:43Z jcowan: if you are in or near NYC at any point, drop by, we are a friendly bunch
2018-05-01T19:25:05Z wasamasa: Zipheir: it keeps surprising me how many germans it involves
2018-05-01T19:25:17Z wasamasa: Zipheir: but I'm probably self-selecting
2018-05-01T19:25:35Z jcowan: next Meetup is May 8
2018-05-01T19:26:04Z Zipheir: jcowan: As I am told they say in Tennesee, used'a could'a. I'd certainly be there if I were a little nearer atm.
2018-05-01T19:26:12Z jcowan nods
2018-05-01T19:26:36Z jcowan: Southerners and Scots are big on those double modals
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2018-05-01T19:29:37Z Zipheir: wasamasa: When I think of a longboat in Norway I certainly think of Germanic peoples...
2018-05-01T19:29:59Z wasamasa: Zipheir: it's the usual suspects, but far less of them than before
2018-05-01T19:30:31Z wasamasa: Zipheir: the thing is, I bet there's plenty french and american involved, but I wouldn't be as likely to travel far enough to meet them
2018-05-01T19:30:50Z foojin: gwatt: I was just wondering if ellipsis can be thought of as yet another identifier the top-level binding of which has a special meaning in macro definitions.
2018-05-01T19:33:27Z vyzo: it is just another identifier
2018-05-01T19:33:38Z vyzo: and it can have other uses as well as a syntactic sugar construct
2018-05-01T19:33:43Z Zipheir: wasamasa: Indeed. I'd really feel terrible asking non-Americans to fly into America for a meetup, frankly. It's not exactly a friendly country to get into these days.
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2018-05-01T19:35:26Z Zipheir: wasamasa: And travelling around Europe is easy and even pleasant. The US public transit infrastructure famously sucks.
2018-05-01T19:36:22Z wasamasa: I could actually imagine going to france, but le francophonie scares me a bit
2018-05-01T19:37:19Z cmaloney: The USA has 50 separate countries, and they all act accordingly
2018-05-01T19:37:35Z cmaloney: In Michigan the public transit around Detroit is not great
2018-05-01T19:40:08Z gwatt: It's not even really an interstate issue; Different cities won't agree.
2018-05-01T19:40:12Z Zipheir: wasamasa: That would be interesting. I don't know that I've met any French hackers, let alone Lispers...
2018-05-01T19:40:21Z wasamasa: there must be
2018-05-01T19:40:44Z wasamasa: look at LiSP, Programmer avec Scheme, LeLisp, etc.
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2018-05-01T19:40:59Z gwatt: I think there's a french person actively working on libraries for chez
2018-05-01T19:41:05Z Zipheir: I hope so, it's so much fun to say 'Scheme' with a french accent. :)
2018-05-01T19:41:19Z gwatt: https://github.com/guenchi
2018-05-01T19:43:06Z Zipheir: gwatt: Although he blogs in Chinese.
2018-05-01T19:43:20Z wasamasa: lol
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2018-05-01T19:44:31Z gwatt: Yeah, github says he's in paris, france
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2018-05-01T19:51:32Z daviid: not sure what you are looking for, but i believe there are (a few) schemers in almost all countries in the world :), in france there is bigloo, and one the guile maintainers is french ...
2018-05-01T19:52:50Z daviid: i recently heard there is a strong research and dev 'community' scheme based in canada
2018-05-01T19:53:28Z gwatt: You're likely to find schemers in Bloomington, Indiana
2018-05-01T19:53:40Z gwatt: and Cisco employees Dybvig in North Carolina
2018-05-01T19:53:59Z gwatt: employs, not employees
2018-05-01T19:54:11Z Kooda: Zipheir, I live in france :)  (CHICKEN maintainer)
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2018-05-01T20:12:18Z Zipheir: Kooda: It is confirmed. French Lispers exist. :-)
2018-05-01T20:15:10Z Kooda: I don’t know any other though. :x
2018-05-01T20:18:08Z Zipheir: Kooda: Gah, I should have remembered. I was reading the French README for your Matrix client like 4 days ago.
2018-05-01T20:19:21Z Kooda: :D
2018-05-01T20:21:42Z pierpal: there's OpenLisp from France. A very good implementation of ISLisp
2018-05-01T20:22:09Z wasamasa: never heard of either
2018-05-01T20:22:20Z pierpal: ...
2018-05-01T20:22:56Z wasamasa: openlisp is proprietary ;_;
2018-05-01T20:23:25Z pierpal: it's a commercial product, yes
2018-05-01T20:24:07Z Zipheir: *ClosedLisp
2018-05-01T20:24:19Z wasamasa: actually, I think I briefly looked into the islisp standard, but forgot about it because it didn't handle enough for implementing MAL
2018-05-01T20:27:09Z Kooda: wasamasa, really? :o  What’s missing?
2018-05-01T20:28:34Z wasamasa: file handling I think
2018-05-01T20:29:00Z wasamasa: you need to read the contents of a file for interpreting one
2018-05-01T20:29:55Z wasamasa: but I'm not sure
2018-05-01T20:30:02Z wasamasa: maybe I was looking at something else
2018-05-01T20:30:27Z wasamasa: because I remember looking at some colorful website and the thing I found now is a pdf
2018-05-01T20:30:39Z Zipheir: Where does ISLisp fall on the CL/Scheme spectrum?
2018-05-01T20:30:47Z wasamasa: it's right between
2018-05-01T20:30:59Z wasamasa: yeah, it must have been some other thing I looked at
2018-05-01T20:31:22Z wasamasa: because this thing definitely handles files
2018-05-01T20:33:21Z wasamasa: some other iso lisp
2018-05-01T20:37:14Z wasamasa: and I've found it on lobste.rs, so I might find it again
2018-05-01T20:48:45Z wasamasa: btw, schism (the scheme->webasm thing) supports lambdas now
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2018-05-01T20:51:21Z Kooda: \o/
2018-05-01T20:54:05Z wasamasa: and possibly more, but I distinctly remember lambdas not being supported before
2018-05-01T20:54:36Z Kooda: Yep, I remember this as well
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2018-05-01T20:58:28Z wasamasa: huh, I remember looking at http://minejima.jp/ISLispHyperDraft/islisp-v23.html but can't remember why I considered islisp inacceptable
2018-05-01T20:58:40Z wasamasa: I need to look again, but with an actual implementation this time
2018-05-01T20:58:53Z wasamasa: like, https://islisp.js.org/
2018-05-01T21:08:39Z jcowan: I think ISLisp is cool, actually
2018-05-01T21:08:46Z jcowan: it pushes staticness in a Lisp as far as it can go
2018-05-01T21:08:54Z jcowan: (except it is still dynamically typed)
2018-05-01T21:09:29Z jcowan: I had an idea at one time to build an ISLisp implementation as part of Kawa
2018-05-01T21:09:37Z jcowan: one thing I do want to do is make an implementation on top of CL
2018-05-01T21:10:06Z jcowan: it doesn't make much sense to build it on top of Scheme with no call/cc or multiple values, but I may reconsider that in the Age of Chez
2018-05-01T21:11:07Z gwatt: What's unique about Chez's call/cc and multiple values?
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2018-05-01T21:31:08Z akkad: openlisp is opensource if you ask him :P
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2018-05-01T21:32:59Z Zipheir: Given that ISO is involved, is the ISLisp spec proprietary?
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2018-05-01T21:35:20Z akkad: not afaik
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2018-05-01T21:36:41Z Zipheir: Hmm, the drafts are actually PD. That's cool.
2018-05-01T21:38:40Z akkad: it's interesting.
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2018-05-01T21:42:47Z jcowan_: Yes.  They worked on it outside the ISO WG, wrote the complete document, dedicated it to the public domain.  Then when it fell off the turnip truck, the WG met, adopted the draft as their base document, made necessary editorial changes for ISOification, and there you are.
2018-05-01T21:43:43Z jcowan_: s/turnip//
2018-05-01T21:46:19Z pierpa: unfortuntely, though, ISLisp has been left halfway from finished. It lacks any form of modularization machinery.  Otherwise it could have been a welcome variant of Lisp, IMO.
2018-05-01T21:47:11Z wasamasa: perhaps the modularization part is why I considered it unfit for implementing MAL
2018-05-01T21:47:53Z pierpa: indeed it is a sorely missing part
2018-05-01T21:48:26Z pierpa: (Openlisp adds a package system lifted from CL)
2018-05-01T21:49:46Z wasamasa: fun, but it being closed source pretty much ruins that
2018-05-01T21:50:01Z wasamasa: anyway, even with that I could probably make it work if I had some way to load other files
2018-05-01T21:50:35Z pierpa: perhaps we can suggest Jullien ways to make money from it by open sourcing it.
2018-05-01T21:50:53Z wasamasa: I've done a relative-load in elisp before
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2018-05-01T22:57:34Z wasamasa: yeah, doesn't look like it has load
2018-05-01T22:58:52Z wasamasa: it doesn't even have eval
2018-05-01T22:59:05Z wasamasa: so the only way I see this to work out is concatenating files
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2018-05-01T23:11:12Z wasamasa: or using openlisp as it seems to have the missing features
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2018-05-01T23:48:10Z akkad: which feature? execute?
2018-05-01T23:48:19Z akkad has a copy of the OpenLisp source
2018-05-01T23:48:36Z akkad: all C, fast because of doing it all within a giant function. with gotos
2018-05-01T23:48:50Z akkad: he makes good $$ on it still
2018-05-01T23:49:41Z akkad: just email him if you want to play with it, he's very cool irl.
2018-05-01T23:50:02Z akkad: at least if you want to build personal stuff with it.
2018-05-01T23:50:39Z akkad: s/goto/call
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2018-05-02T00:01:37Z pierpa: it's impressively fast, for an interpreter.
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2018-05-02T00:07:49Z jcowan_: As I say, ISLisp is pretty static.  I think they decided to leave modularization out because they didn't want to do CL-style packages (which are a gHorribleKludge)
2018-05-02T00:08:04Z jcowan_: and didn't have a good alternative model twenty years ago
2018-05-02T00:09:03Z pierpa: I think they just ran out of funds/time
2018-05-02T00:10:44Z erkin: Is "typed Scheme" a thing (outside Racket)?
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2018-05-02T00:11:34Z pierpa: Only Racket among the currently alive systems, AFAIK
2018-05-02T00:11:46Z erkin: Ah
2018-05-02T00:12:33Z erkin: From what I've gathered, Racket is more like a dialect of Scheme (á la C → C++) than an implementation of it.
2018-05-02T00:13:37Z gwatt: "Racket" is a language platform, with multiple implemented languages.
2018-05-02T00:13:54Z pierpa: it started as Scheme, then they decided to change the name to be free to explore new diverging ways from Scheme
2018-05-02T00:14:07Z gwatt: There's "#lang racket" which is pretty schemey, "#lang r6rs" which is pretty strict r6rs
2018-05-02T00:14:21Z gwatt: I think there's even "#lang algol"
2018-05-02T00:14:34Z pierpa: there is
2018-05-02T00:16:12Z erkin: Huh
2018-05-02T00:17:21Z erkin: I thought it was just variations of Racket. Like Lazy Racket and Typed Racket
2018-05-02T00:18:00Z pierpa: must specify you are talking of the whole system, or of #lang racket
2018-05-02T00:18:06Z pierpa: +if
2018-05-02T00:18:15Z erkin: I see
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2018-05-02T02:24:21Z slayne: Hi everyone, I was wondering how to include a .scm file like we do in C #Include. I know it's different in scheme, but also confusing as you've got multiple instances of these functions (use load require include). Any tips?
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2018-05-02T02:37:17Z slayne: I figured it out using declaration, thanks.
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2018-05-02T14:45:27Z jcowan: gwatt: #lang algol has pretty crappy interop with the rest of Racket: an A60 program compiles into a blob that can only be executed, and communicates with the rest of the world solely by side effects.
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2018-05-02T14:56:22Z jcowan: at that rate you might as well use Marst (Algol->C translator)
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2018-05-02T15:07:59Z gwatt: I have never actually needed to use algol
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2018-05-02T15:10:48Z jcowan: Few have.  It was the programming language of my freshman (and only) year at Case Western Reserve University back in 1976.
2018-05-02T15:11:37Z jcowan: I would have hoped that the translator would make Algol procedures available to Scheme, but no.
2018-05-02T15:12:39Z jcowan: There is a conflict between Algol's CBN and Scheme's CBV
2018-05-02T15:13:24Z jcowan: the normal implementation of CBN involves thunks, but thunks that return references rather than values
2018-05-02T15:14:17Z jcowan: so for example if you call foo(i, a[i]) and then mutate i in the body of foo, attempts to access the second argument will access a different element of the array.
2018-05-02T15:14:33Z jcowan: not to mention that i in the caller will be mutated
2018-05-02T15:17:11Z gwatt: hmm, that seems annoying to program in
2018-05-02T15:20:34Z jcowan: it can be turned off on an arg-by-arg basis
2018-05-02T15:21:03Z jcowan: it was originally an unintended consequence of defining procedure call as a pure textual substitution
2018-05-02T15:21:12Z jcowan: procedures as hygienic macros
2018-05-02T15:21:34Z jcowan: turned off at the caller, I mean, not by the callee
2018-05-02T15:23:28Z jcowan: It makes possible things like Jensen's Device, which is a fixed routine that can compute any real function of real values
2018-05-02T15:23:29Z jcowan: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jensen%27s_Device
2018-05-02T15:25:00Z jcowan: the General Problem Solver is even simpler
2018-05-02T15:25:10Z jcowan: real procedure GPS(I, N, Z, V); real I, N, Z, V;
2018-05-02T15:25:10Z jcowan:    begin for I := 1 step 1 until N do Z := V; GPS := 1 end;
2018-05-02T15:25:45Z jcowan: the key being that any of N, Z, V can depend on I and therefore be recomputed as you go
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2018-05-02T21:04:47Z duncanm: jcowan: this is funny - http://languagehat.com/faking-a-related-language/
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2018-05-02T22:21:08Z jcowan: duncanm: yes,if you liked that you might like http://vrici.lojban.org/~cowan/essential.html
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2018-05-03T00:26:31Z jcowan: I'm debating one of two naming schemes for Scheme Posix procedures
2018-05-03T00:26:47Z jcowan: posix-headername-cprocname or posix-cprocname
2018-05-03T00:27:36Z jcowan: most existing systems have "Schemey" names, and I'm okay with that, but the advantage of using C names is that they are already documented all over the net
2018-05-03T00:27:46Z jcowan: anyone have input on this?
2018-05-03T00:37:17Z Zipheir: jcowan: Is there going to be a standardized Scheme POSIX library?
2018-05-03T00:37:30Z jcowan: There is going to be a proposal for one, yes
2018-05-03T00:37:38Z Zipheir: jcowan: Good news.
2018-05-03T00:37:47Z jcowan: whether it gets voted in is a question, and whether it gets adopted is another question
2018-05-03T00:40:48Z jcowan: Zipheir: do you have a view on names?  posix-open or posix-file-open
2018-05-03T00:41:04Z jcowan: s/file/fcntl
2018-05-03T00:41:37Z cgay: I like to start my function names with a verb.
2018-05-03T00:43:22Z jcowan: We need a uniquifying prefix, given that Scheme is mostly monomorphemic
2018-05-03T00:43:55Z jcowan: Now that I think about it, it is probably not worth people having to remember which header file things are in, since the names are unique across all of Posix
2018-05-03T00:44:21Z jcowan: note that we have append, string-append, vector-append, etc. etc.
2018-05-03T00:44:30Z cgay: I know. I'm just being an ass.
2018-05-03T00:44:35Z jcowan nods
2018-05-03T00:44:45Z Riastradh: SInce you're trying to match an existing API, seems to me it should all just be named posix-<name>.
2018-05-03T00:45:14Z Riastradh: No fancification to dilute the connection between posix-please-sir-would-you-kindly-grant-me-a-capability-for-this-file and the POSIX open(2) syscall.
2018-05-03T00:49:00Z daviid: 1+ for posix-<name>
2018-05-03T00:49:04Z cgay: Or perhaps posix/<name>.  i.e., if you were to have the convention that / delimits some sort of package.
2018-05-03T00:49:19Z Riastradh: Although...
2018-05-03T00:49:38Z Riastradh: It would be prudent to represent file descriptors by a type of object that can be garbage-collected with a finalizer associated.
2018-05-03T00:50:03Z Riastradh: So in that respect maybe posix-please-sir-would-you-kindly-grant-me-a-capability-for-this-file is better.
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2018-05-03T01:16:43Z Zipheir: jcowan: Sorry, missed that. It seems like a bit of a bike-shedding issue.
2018-05-03T01:17:17Z jcowan: Sure.  But on the whole I think people shouldn't be asked to remember the name of the header
2018-05-03T01:17:41Z jcowan: Riastradh: I've been thinking about all that scsh fd stuff
2018-05-03T01:18:06Z jcowan: however I am less than convinced it actually matters: the same problem appears if you are using stdio in C
2018-05-03T01:18:41Z jcowan: perhaps I should add a warning that if the second argument of dup2 is not 0, 1, or 2, there may be unpredictable side effects on Scheme ports
2018-05-03T01:18:43Z Zipheir: jcowan: Right. posix-stat-lstat would be a little cumbersome, but maybe I've misunderstood the 'posix-headername-cprocname' form.
2018-05-03T01:19:24Z Zipheir: headername == sanitized C header file name?
2018-05-03T01:19:59Z jcowan: the other thing I am debating is whether the various structs that Posix requires should be represented as Scheme records or bytevectors with specialized accessors and mutators
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2018-05-03T01:47:27Z slayne: This snippet (if (string=? str "hello") (print "True") (print "False")) never returns true, even if the variable str is "hello", how come?
2018-05-03T01:49:14Z jcowan: slayne: It should.  What Scheme are you using?
2018-05-03T01:49:33Z jcowan: Zipheir: Yes, header file name without the ".h" suffix
2018-05-03T01:49:59Z slayne: Using chicken scheme atm, however if I replace the str variable with "hello", it works..
2018-05-03T01:50:15Z jcowan: and how did you define str?
2018-05-03T01:50:58Z slayne: I'm binding it from the read function using let
2018-05-03T01:51:23Z slayne: when I print it prints out the correct value, I'm puzzled!
2018-05-03T01:52:19Z jcowan: when you say "returns true", I assume you mean "prints 'True'"
2018-05-03T01:52:43Z jcowan: print returns the undefined value
2018-05-03T01:52:49Z slayne: Yeah that's what I meant!
2018-05-03T01:52:53Z jcowan: okay
2018-05-03T01:53:36Z slayne: Well actually now that I did some changes, it only prints true whatever the value of str is. I'll show a snippet!
2018-05-03T01:53:40Z jcowan: yes
2018-05-03T01:57:08Z slayne: https://pastebin.com/w5UWiQTV
2018-05-03T02:00:49Z slayne: Any ideas?
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2018-05-03T02:08:49Z Zipheir: Works for me (false and true).
2018-05-03T02:09:26Z Zipheir: You're using read, so are you entering strings correctly? e.g. "hello", not hello
2018-05-03T02:09:50Z Zipheir: Derp, that would cause string=? to error out.
2018-05-03T02:15:17Z slayne: Well, you solved the problem, I wasn't typing "hello", but hello.. But how come it doesn't interpret str as a string without the ""
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2018-05-03T02:16:42Z Zipheir: Try read-line, which returns a line as a string. read is for S-expressions.
2018-05-03T02:16:47Z gwatt: slayne: read does a lot of work
2018-05-03T02:16:56Z gwatt: it processes full scheme form
2018-05-03T02:16:58Z gwatt: s
2018-05-03T02:17:37Z Zipheir: What I don't get is why you weren't getting an error from using string=? on a non-string argument.
2018-05-03T02:18:16Z Zipheir: For me, csi throws an error for (string=? str "hello") where str isn't a string.
2018-05-03T02:18:40Z slayne: I was getting an error though, after I made some changes.
2018-05-03T02:18:45Z Zipheir: Oh, OK.
2018-05-03T02:19:39Z slayne: I like scheme but I'm still getting stuck on silly problems like these..
2018-05-03T02:19:55Z slayne: Much more productive in plain C
2018-05-03T02:21:32Z slayne: Now I just replaced read by (read-line) and I'm getting an unbound variable.
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2018-05-03T02:23:00Z slayne: Ah, needed to use extras, my bad.
2018-05-03T02:23:06Z Zipheir: (use extras), in Chicken. It's non-standard, but a lot of Schemes provide it.
2018-05-03T02:23:12Z Zipheir: Yup.
2018-05-03T02:23:51Z slayne: And now it's not even reading the line, it just skips it and output false!
2018-05-03T02:24:21Z slayne: Using the same code, just replaced read by read-line.
2018-05-03T02:25:06Z Zipheir: o.O Works here.
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2018-05-03T02:29:52Z Zipheir: BTW, can rudybot evaluate code?
2018-05-03T02:30:41Z Zipheir: ^^ (to anyone who knows the answer)
2018-05-03T02:31:07Z slayne: I sure don't.
2018-05-03T02:31:14Z slayne: ,c
2018-05-03T02:31:21Z slayne: ,csc
2018-05-03T02:31:40Z slayne: Hello rudy
2018-05-03T02:32:02Z pierpa: rudybot: hello
2018-05-03T02:32:03Z rudybot: pierpa: hello. How does one adds holidays to other-holidays?
2018-05-03T02:32:33Z pierpa: rudybot: (sqrt -1)
2018-05-03T02:32:44Z rudybot: pierpa: error: with-limit: out of time
2018-05-03T02:32:51Z pierpa: rudybot: eval (sqrt -1)
2018-05-03T02:32:54Z rudybot: pierpa: your sandbox is ready
2018-05-03T02:32:54Z rudybot: pierpa: ; Value: 0+1i
2018-05-03T02:33:05Z Zipheir: Awesome. Thanks, pierpa.
2018-05-03T02:33:20Z pierpa: yw ;)
2018-05-03T02:34:23Z Zipheir: Oh, and it's got
2018-05-03T02:34:26Z slayne: rudybot: (eval (list + 6 3))
2018-05-03T02:34:27Z Zipheir: rudybot: botsnack
2018-05-03T02:34:32Z rudybot: slayne: your sandbox is ready
2018-05-03T02:34:32Z rudybot: slayne: ; Value: 9
2018-05-03T02:34:33Z rudybot: yech, generic brand
2018-05-03T02:34:36Z pierpa: rudybot: (readline)bongo
2018-05-03T02:34:37Z rudybot: pierpa: i once had bongo setup (with a really nasty hack) to control mplayer so i could watch movies/streams while emacsing in a framebuffer :)
2018-05-03T02:34:49Z pierpa: rudybot: eval (read-line)bongo
2018-05-03T02:34:49Z rudybot: pierpa: error: bongo: undefined; <NEWLINE>  cannot reference an identifier before its definition <NEWLINE>   in module: 'program
2018-05-03T02:35:05Z pierpa: rudybot: eval (read-line)
2018-05-03T02:35:05Z rudybot: pierpa: ; Value: #<eof>
2018-05-03T02:35:10Z slayne: I was baffled when I saw that you could turn data into actual code :)
2018-05-03T02:35:32Z pierpa: hmmm
2018-05-03T02:38:42Z pierpa: rudybot: eval (do ((n 10 (- n 1)) (f 'smoke (cons f f))) ((zero? n) f))
2018-05-03T02:38:44Z rudybot: pierpa: ; Value: '((((((((((smoke . smoke) smoke . smoke) (smoke . smoke) smoke . smoke) ((smoke . smoke) smoke . smoke) (smoke . smoke) smoke . smoke) (((smoke . smoke) smoke . smoke) (smoke . smoke) smoke . smoke) ((smoke . smoke) smoke . smoke) (smoke . smoke) smoke . smoke) ((((smoke . smoke) smoke . smoke) (smoke . smoke) smoke . smoke) ((smoke . smoke) smoke . smoke) (smoke . smoke) smoke . smoke) (((smoke . smoke) smok
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2018-05-03T02:40:52Z Zipheir: rudybot needs to cut it back to 6 packs a day.
2018-05-03T02:42:29Z pierpa: :)
2018-05-03T02:43:38Z pierpa: rudybot: eval (do ((n 30 (- n 1)) (f 'smoke (cons f f))) ((zero? n) f))
2018-05-03T02:44:39Z pierpa: poor rudybot...
2018-05-03T02:44:47Z rudybot: pierpa: error: with-limit: out of memory
2018-05-03T02:44:56Z slayne: Managed to fix that nasty buf in my code, I used read in a previous function, it was causing my next read-line to be interrupted..
2018-05-03T02:45:32Z pierpa: ?
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2018-05-03T02:58:15Z Zipheir: Sounds messy. Why would you intersperse calls to read and read-line?
2018-05-03T03:01:53Z slayne: I had changed read for read-line as you suggested, forgot about the other read.
2018-05-03T03:05:44Z Zipheir: That makes sense.
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2018-05-03T03:08:56Z slayne: Finally, parentheses are starting to be much more familiar :)
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2018-05-03T03:23:49Z Zipheir: slayne: https://xkcd.com/297/
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2018-05-03T18:24:43Z Zipheir: Riastradh: The link to SICP in the topic has been dead for a while. The MIT Press version is now at https://mitpress.mit.edu/sites/default/files/sicp/full-text/book/book.html
2018-05-03T18:25:40Z amz3: tx Zipheir
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2018-05-03T18:26:50Z wasamasa: I keep misreading that nick as zephir
2018-05-03T18:27:12Z Zipheir: :)
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2018-05-03T19:02:52Z duncanm: la la la
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2018-05-03T19:14:54Z Zipheir: Is (define foo) legal RnRs Scheme? The Seasoned Schemer uses this form a lot (in combination with assignment), and Chicken and Guile both bind the name the unspecified value.
2018-05-03T19:15:14Z Zipheir: *to the unspecified value
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2018-05-03T19:16:15Z wasamasa: how does the combination look like?
2018-05-03T19:16:33Z wasamasa: what I typically see people do is (define foo #f), then (set! foo ...) whenever convenient
2018-05-03T19:17:26Z Zipheir: Right. It's used the same way. I seem to recall SICP using (define foo *undefined*) ... (set! foo ...)
2018-05-03T19:17:59Z weinholt: (define <variable>) is valid in R6RS
2018-05-03T19:18:03Z wasamasa: lol
2018-05-03T19:18:09Z wasamasa: r6rs ruins all the fun
2018-05-03T19:18:16Z Zipheir: weinholt: OK
2018-05-03T19:18:57Z wasamasa: the tried and true way to obtain the undefined value is (define *undefined* (if #f #f))
2018-05-03T19:19:03Z wasamasa: but that doesn't work everywhere
2018-05-03T19:19:03Z Zipheir: R7RS doesn't mention a unary define form, only (define <variable> <expression>). So I guess it's UB?
2018-05-03T19:19:08Z gwatt: it's in r6rs
2018-05-03T19:19:14Z gwatt: but not 5 or 7
2018-05-03T19:19:19Z wasamasa: I'm sure jcowan made a table of what supports this
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2018-05-03T19:19:46Z Zipheir: Heh, indeed.
2018-05-03T19:19:52Z jcowan checks
2018-05-03T19:20:11Z jcowan: https://bitbucket.org/cowan/r7rs-wg1-infra/src/default/EmptyDefine.md
2018-05-03T19:20:16Z wasamasa: awesome
2018-05-03T19:20:23Z wasamasa: I knew I could count on you!
2018-05-03T19:20:25Z Zipheir: ty jcowan!
2018-05-03T19:20:55Z jcowan: in fact I tested (if #f #f) too and it works everywhere except Racket
2018-05-03T19:21:11Z wasamasa: rudybot: let's make a racket over this
2018-05-03T19:21:22Z rudybot: wasamasa: racket channel. Quick question: is there any difference/advantage to using one of 'define' or 'let' over the other? Specifically inside the scope of a function, not at toplevel
2018-05-03T19:21:28Z wasamasa: "Variable is bound to a thunk which returns itself and does not appear to have any side effects"
2018-05-03T19:21:31Z wasamasa: seriously?
2018-05-03T19:21:50Z gwatt: void *foo = &foo; what's the big deal
2018-05-03T19:21:52Z wasamasa: I've never heard of sxm before
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2018-05-03T19:21:59Z jcowan: https://bitbucket.org/cowan/r7rs-wg1-infra/src/default/OneArmedIf.md
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2018-05-03T19:23:44Z Zipheir: There's more divergence on empty define than I thought. And wow, SXM's interpretation.
2018-05-03T19:24:06Z weinholt: jcowan, (if #f #f) returns #f in vicare 0.4.1-devel.3, fwiw
2018-05-03T19:25:28Z gwatt: jcowan: not sure if this matters but "#lang r6rs" does support single arg define and one-armed if
2018-05-03T19:25:55Z jcowan: right, these are just tests of the default language
2018-05-03T19:26:11Z jcowan: start the REPL, paste (if #f #f), see what happens
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2018-05-03T20:39:19Z duncanm: hmm, i'm trying this in Kawa
2018-05-03T20:39:47Z duncanm: #|kawa:1|# (if #f #f) ;; nothing gets printed after
2018-05-03T20:40:03Z duncanm: #|kawa:2|# (display (if #f #f))
2018-05-03T20:40:03Z duncanm: #|kawa:3|# (define unspecified (if #f #f))
2018-05-03T20:40:03Z duncanm: /dev/stdin:3:21: warning - missing else where value is required
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2018-05-03T20:45:14Z wasamasa: jcowan's page mentions that many implementations don't print the undefined value
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2018-05-03T20:49:28Z pierpal: It is a correct warning. What is the problem?
2018-05-03T20:50:42Z pierpal: the compiler is warning you that you wrote an atrocious dubious piece of code
2018-05-03T20:51:12Z pierpal: *atrocious dubious even
2018-05-03T20:52:02Z pierpal: damn autocorrector!
2018-05-03T20:52:23Z pierpal: *atrociously!
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2018-05-03T21:45:01Z wasamasa: hm, I don't really understand exercise 2.63a
2018-05-03T21:45:48Z wasamasa: I mistakenly assumed tree->list-2 is tail-recursive and therefore keeps the evaluation depth constant, but it doesn't buy you anything over tree->list-1
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2018-05-03T21:47:07Z wasamasa: http://ix.io/19lQ
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2018-05-03T21:49:30Z wasamasa: or perhaps I'm wrong and tree->list-2 isn't actually tail-recursive because it requires evaluating another call to itself in a non-tail position
2018-05-03T21:49:36Z wasamasa: half-assed tail-recursion?
2018-05-03T21:51:18Z pierpa: where's the code?
2018-05-03T21:51:42Z wasamasa: in sicp obviously
2018-05-03T21:53:18Z wasamasa: http://sarabander.github.io/sicp/html/2_002e3.xhtml#g_t2_002e3_002e3
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2018-05-03T21:58:26Z pierpa: each of the two functions have two recursive calls
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2018-05-03T21:59:17Z pierpa: one of them in the second function is tail recursive. But this is not the point of the exercise
2018-05-03T21:59:23Z wasamasa: mhh
2018-05-03T21:59:35Z pierpa: forget about TR, in this exercise
2018-05-03T21:59:55Z wasamasa: I just found it an interesting observation
2018-05-03T21:59:59Z pierpa: think about time complexity
2018-05-03T22:00:04Z wasamasa: it's not sufficient if just one call is tail-recursive
2018-05-03T22:00:10Z wasamasa: they all have to be
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2018-05-03T22:01:04Z pierpa: even one of two calls being TR is useful too
2018-05-03T22:01:16Z pierpa: think about quicksort, for an example
2018-05-03T22:02:29Z pierpa: no, delete the last two lines :)
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2018-05-03T22:48:00Z duncanm: wasamasa: i think the point is to distinguish CONS vs APPEND
2018-05-03T22:54:35Z pierpa: the point is quadratic vs linear time
2018-05-03T22:56:56Z pierpa: oh, there's a new edition of the reasoned schemer. I hadn't noticed it before...
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2018-05-03T23:06:37Z wasamasa: duncanm: probably
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2018-05-03T23:54:26Z jcowan: When processing trees, it's often the case that the car recursion is non-tail and the cdr recursion is tail, and this is a win, because most trees are wider than they are deep
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2018-05-04T04:46:25Z gwatt: For anyone interested I've just about implemented {er,ir}-macro-transformers in r6rs
2018-05-04T04:46:33Z gwatt: https://github.com/gwatt/macros
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2018-05-04T07:53:27Z wasamasa: next up: port the procedural-macros egg
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2018-05-04T09:57:52Z gwatt: wasamasa: looks like procedural-macros are implemented in terms of er/ir
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2018-05-04T11:45:51Z werkin: Someone keeps adding viagra spam http://community.schemewiki.org/?sandbox
2018-05-04T11:45:54Z werkin: Hah
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2018-05-04T15:08:04Z ecraven: hm.. I should start monitoring all my LAN devices onto some always-on device (like a raspberry pi).. the NAS sometimes fails
2018-05-04T15:08:27Z ecraven: I've always wanted to reinvent monitoring with Scheme :D
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2018-05-04T18:09:19Z duncanm: gwatt: what are IR macros?
2018-05-04T18:10:07Z duncanm: is it this? http://community.schemewiki.org/?syntactic-closures
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2018-05-04T18:28:06Z gwatt: implicit renaming macros
2018-05-04T18:29:59Z gwatt: http://wiki.call-cc.org/man/4/Macros
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2018-05-04T19:50:02Z wasamasa: hm, islisp doesn't have hash tables
2018-05-04T19:50:06Z wasamasa: that's kind of a shame
2018-05-04T19:50:41Z wasamasa: going all these lengths to implement multi-dimension arrays and then skimping out on something far more important
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2018-05-04T19:53:39Z akkad: openlisp has hashes
2018-05-04T19:54:00Z wasamasa: if only it were like, actually open...
2018-05-04T19:54:26Z akkad: one email and it is
2018-05-04T19:54:37Z wasamasa: um, that gives me a personal copy
2018-05-04T19:54:51Z wasamasa: if I were to put it online for usage with travis ci, that wouldn't fly
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2018-05-04T19:55:06Z wasamasa: it's like asking MS for a copy of windows for learning purposes
2018-05-04T19:55:10Z wasamasa: doesn't make the world any more open
2018-05-04T19:56:35Z wasamasa: anyway, the issue is that there aren't many usable implementations
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2018-05-04T19:58:54Z wasamasa: https://github.com/asciian/iris/issues/4
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2018-05-04T19:59:10Z wasamasa: imagine you tried a scheme implementation and found it to not handle comments
2018-05-04T20:00:38Z gwatt: This is silly, but you can write literal strings as a workaround
2018-05-04T20:01:07Z wasamasa: this ok!lisp thing is closed source and the website only offers a download for windows
2018-05-04T20:01:13Z wasamasa: the rest has dead websites
2018-05-04T20:01:48Z wasamasa: but who knows, maybe they migrated to github
2018-05-04T20:02:30Z akkad: wasamasa: open in terms of the day, and age. please try not to use modern definitions for things named well before your etical point of view.
2018-05-04T20:02:54Z wasamasa: at this point, it's a double-speak thing
2018-05-04T20:04:02Z gwatt: how old is islisp that it predates the term "open source"
2018-05-04T20:04:56Z wasamasa: latest draft is from 2007
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2018-05-04T20:10:07Z akkad: "how old is bob?" "his last birthday was yesterday"
2018-05-04T20:10:10Z akkad: seriously
2018-05-04T20:10:30Z akkad: like 85
2018-05-04T20:10:31Z jcowan_: gwatt: 1997
2018-05-04T20:10:50Z jcowan_: the 2007 version is a reaffirmation with only a few changes
2018-05-04T20:10:58Z akkad: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ISLISP shows earlier.
2018-05-04T20:12:13Z akkad: e.g. opengroup, Open Software Foundation, X/Open, all predate "open source"
2018-05-04T20:12:16Z jcowan_: so the idea of something being both commercial and open source was very new in 1997
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2018-05-04T20:13:59Z jcowan_: The purpose of ISLisp was to create a commercialize-able Lisp, smaller and faster
2018-05-04T20:15:26Z jcowan_: than CL
2018-05-04T20:15:53Z jcowan_: so that people could write Lisp programs that would do useful stuff in small amounts of memory
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2018-05-04T20:18:31Z akkad: common demoninator of scheme/cl no?
2018-05-04T20:18:56Z wasamasa: it's a bit more than that
2018-05-04T20:21:52Z akkad: not as if it's called OpenSourceLisp
2018-05-04T20:22:11Z wasamasa: let's close the sources of openssl
2018-05-04T20:23:53Z Kooda: If that stops people from using it, I’m all for it. :D
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2018-05-04T20:25:32Z wasamasa: it's a mystery to me why anyone does anyways
2018-05-04T20:26:04Z Kooda: Probably because it’s installed on many OS.
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2018-05-04T21:13:04Z wasamasa: I suspect iris hasn't been used for anything serious at all
2018-05-04T21:13:18Z wasamasa: I can't even read out file contents
2018-05-04T21:13:36Z wasamasa: (with-open-input-file (in "/etc/hostname") (read-line in)) fails on in's data type
2018-05-04T21:13:50Z wasamasa: works fine in openlisp, so eh
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2018-05-04T21:45:58Z louishaemmerle: lately, I wondered about the similarities of a macro system and XSLT, both do transform a tree-like structure of data. I assume that the Scheme community has realized this at some point. So I wonder if you have any pointers that I can read up on or other ideas related to that
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2018-05-04T22:06:03Z gwatt: louishaemmerle: when xml (and xslt) came into being lispers looked at it and said "That's just verbose s-expressions" and everyone else said "but it doesn't have parentheses!"
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2018-05-04T22:18:21Z wasamasa: yey, I found a thing openlisp can't do well
2018-05-04T22:18:29Z wasamasa: being used in unixy ways
2018-05-04T22:18:57Z wasamasa: iris is better, but oh so buggy
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2018-05-04T22:25:43Z Kooda: You mean building self-contained executables?
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2018-05-04T22:26:37Z wasamasa: no, piping text into it and reading it
2018-05-04T22:26:45Z wasamasa: I can't even figure out how to read user input
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2018-05-04T22:27:52Z wasamasa: (read-line) uses (standard-input) and gives me an empty string
2018-05-04T22:29:50Z pierpa: read, read-char, read-line are all broken?
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2018-05-04T22:30:50Z pierpa: read-line takes an optional stream parameter
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2018-05-04T22:31:24Z wasamasa: yes, but it's not specified what the default value of (standard-input) is
2018-05-04T22:31:39Z wasamasa: you can pass other streams to it, but that's limited to file and string ones
2018-05-04T22:31:54Z wasamasa: let's try whether the old /dev/stdin trick works
2018-05-04T22:32:14Z pierpa: uh?
2018-05-04T22:32:20Z pierpa: what do you want to do?
2018-05-04T22:32:24Z wasamasa: reading user input
2018-05-04T22:32:34Z wasamasa: even r7rs-small allows me to do that without any voodoo
2018-05-04T22:32:49Z pierpa: then (read-line) works
2018-05-04T22:32:59Z wasamasa: nope
2018-05-04T22:33:09Z pierpa: try (read-line)foo
2018-05-04T22:33:33Z pierpa: (I suppose you are trying these at the repl)
2018-05-04T22:33:42Z wasamasa: doesn't make any difference in script mode
2018-05-04T22:35:04Z pierpa: isn't the default input stream the unix stdin stream?
2018-05-04T22:35:31Z pierpa: or the equivalent on non-unix systems?
2018-05-04T22:35:35Z wasamasa: it's not
2018-05-04T22:35:40Z pierpa: weird
2018-05-04T22:35:51Z wasamasa: draw your own conclusion
2018-05-04T22:36:10Z pierpa: I used it for a while for various task and don't remember any such difficulties
2018-05-04T22:36:52Z wasamasa: feel free to try it yourself
2018-05-04T22:37:29Z wasamasa: http://ix.io/19rb
2018-05-04T22:38:34Z wasamasa: if you replace the (with-open-input-file ...) with (read-line (standard-input)), the script returns a list with an empty string
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2018-05-04T22:42:32Z pierpa: (read-line)foo   works here
2018-05-04T22:43:09Z pierpa: have you tried?
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2018-05-04T22:43:32Z wasamasa: I've been at this for the last half hour
2018-05-04T22:43:50Z wasamasa: yes, I did the obvious thing
2018-05-04T22:43:55Z pierpa: still you say if you tried or not
2018-05-04T22:44:02Z pierpa: you don't say
2018-05-04T22:44:15Z wasamasa: it's the very first thing I said
2018-05-04T22:44:25Z pierpa: sorry. I must have missed it
2018-05-04T22:44:34Z pierpa: anyway it works perfetly here
2018-05-04T22:45:29Z wasamasa: if I put (read-line) into a script and run it via uxlisp test.lsp, it exits immediately without waiting for user input
2018-05-04T22:46:31Z pierpa: are you really really sure you tried typing the following line into a repl: (read-line)foo  ?
2018-05-04T22:49:01Z wasamasa: the repl part is irrelevant for me
2018-05-04T22:49:16Z wasamasa: I'm going to run a script and if I can't read user input from the script, well, I'll be damned
2018-05-04T22:49:30Z pierpa: still you don't say if you tried or not. Good luck.
2018-05-04T22:49:54Z wasamasa: in r7rs-small it's as easy as writing (import (scheme base)) (read-line) into a file and evaluating it
2018-05-04T22:50:04Z wasamasa: that will block for as long as I need to enter user input
2018-05-04T22:50:10Z wasamasa: in islisp this returns immediately
2018-05-04T22:50:27Z wasamasa: I consider that a defect that greatly diminishes the default value of (standard-input)
2018-05-04T22:50:58Z wasamasa: it can be rectified by reading from the special /dev/stdin file, but this is ridiculous and unportable
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2018-05-04T23:48:17Z jcowan: Well, if this keeps up I see I will have to write an ISLisp compiler after all
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2018-05-05T00:03:09Z pierpa: Actually Openlisp works very well. Still, a free system would come handy, yes.
2018-05-05T00:04:06Z pierpa: And implementing it in CL would require very little work, I think
2018-05-05T00:04:21Z pierpa: But then, one can use CL...
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2018-05-05T01:16:44Z jcowan: pierpa: Indeed.  I want to do a CL implementation first and then write an implementation in something else
2018-05-05T01:17:01Z jcowan: (not Scheme, though)
2018-05-05T01:17:23Z jcowan: or I should say, not most Schemes.  Chez might work.
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2018-05-05T02:00:18Z daviid: mini desin quiz: would you prefer (pop* queue n-item) or (pop* n-item queue) ?
2018-05-05T02:00:43Z daviid: *design
2018-05-05T02:02:50Z daviid: the former I guess (drop and friends ...)
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2018-05-05T02:10:56Z pierpa: make it consistent with your push
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2018-05-05T07:13:37Z wasamasa: it seems I'm not the first running into the (standard-input) issue: http://openlisp.free.fr/forum/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=21
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2018-05-05T07:26:56Z wasamasa: sure, this behavior makes sense in a repl, but when interpreting a file, not so much
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2018-05-05T08:20:21Z wasamasa: great, while you can signal errors, it doesn't seem possible to introduce custom error types
2018-05-05T08:20:42Z wasamasa: you can't subclass <error> and if you just make your own, signal-condition fails because it's not an <error>
2018-05-05T08:21:02Z wasamasa: not sure what to do instead, hijack some existing error class?
2018-05-05T08:30:05Z wasamasa: yeah, that works
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2018-05-05T12:56:20Z wasamasa: in case I haven't bored everyone to death, here's my results: https://github.com/wasamasa/mal-candidates/tree/master/islisp
2018-05-05T13:00:07Z wasamasa: so far, islisp feels like the worst of both CL and scheme to me
2018-05-05T13:00:28Z wasamasa: it introduces unnecessary features from CL while being at least as cumbersome as scheme to write
2018-05-05T13:00:47Z wasamasa: see my implementation of list->string for example
2018-05-05T13:03:11Z wasamasa: I also dug up tisl which is far less broken than iris: https://github.com/wasamasa/tisl/
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2018-05-05T13:30:26Z longshi: is CL really that much `nicer` to write than scheme? I ask as a noob, don't want to flame--i did lisp koans (from google if i recall correctly) and use scheme (guile and chez) to write scripts and learn coding. are there still advantages to using CL if i don't want to build big big industrial systems? scheme(s) seems so much nicer.
2018-05-05T13:30:42Z longshi: and cleaner and more beginner-friendly
2018-05-05T13:31:07Z wasamasa: personally, I can't really imagine it, but it has undeniably more features
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2018-05-05T13:33:01Z longshi: well, yeah, helpful if you already know them--i mean, i know CL has some quality literature and i mean to read it sometime (and, as a by-product, learn me some CL)
2018-05-05T13:33:17Z wasamasa: I have only used it briefly, I'm otherwise on elisp, clojure, scheme and some other oddballs
2018-05-05T13:33:19Z longshi: but i still have to finish so much stuff… :D
2018-05-05T13:34:22Z longshi: yeah, i try to write some elisp too--it's pretty nice now, when i started learning elisp, it seemed really weird and backward compared to scheme
2018-05-05T13:34:45Z longshi: i grew to like it
2018-05-05T13:35:23Z longshi: clojure is a little bit like CL, isn't it? i like its syntax
2018-05-05T13:35:40Z wasamasa: not really
2018-05-05T13:36:03Z wasamasa: it's been designed by someone who used CL for their job before, but is a lisp-1 and goes for functional style
2018-05-05T13:36:05Z longshi: i plan to implement clojure's {} dicts when my macro-fu gets better
2018-05-05T13:36:27Z longshi: what's lisp-1?
2018-05-05T13:36:40Z longshi: i mean, "what do you mean?"
2018-05-05T13:36:42Z longshi: :D
2018-05-05T13:36:46Z wasamasa: functions and variables sharing the same namespace, like in scheme
2018-05-05T13:37:10Z longshi: ah, i see--thanks!
2018-05-05T13:37:38Z wasamasa: a lisp-1 tends to emphasize functions as values and requires less symbol wrangling helpers
2018-05-05T13:38:04Z wasamasa: this isn't always the case, see picolisp for an example that's still very symbol-heavy
2018-05-05T13:38:36Z longshi: hmm--so it's like scheme in that regard, right?
2018-05-05T13:38:50Z longshi: i mean, functions ARE values
2018-05-05T13:38:53Z wasamasa: yes
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2018-05-05T13:39:11Z wasamasa: clojure does introduce vars though for attaching metadata to names holding them
2018-05-05T13:39:25Z wasamasa: and for a level of indirection which is useful for interactive development
2018-05-05T13:45:14Z longshi: i see
2018-05-05T13:45:43Z longshi: unrelated question: http://theschemer.org/ --what is this?
2018-05-05T13:46:10Z longshi: i mean, i got in this site from http://ravensc.com/
2018-05-05T13:46:29Z longshi: which is a package manager for chez scheme
2018-05-05T13:46:38Z longshi: and i'm about to download that
2018-05-05T13:47:34Z longshi: but i'd also like to know what it's about
2018-05-05T13:47:36Z wasamasa: looks like a forum
2018-05-05T13:49:26Z longshi: interesting
2018-05-05T13:50:34Z longshi: i sometimes wonder what's a chinese programming community like--if they like scheme, we should get some more libraries
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2018-05-05T14:11:53Z pjb: longshi: Have a look at: http://www.nhplace.com/kent/Papers/Technical-Issues.html
2018-05-05T14:12:25Z pjb: longshi: Clojure could have been implemented as a CL library, but it's not like CL at all.
2018-05-05T14:14:49Z longshi: thanks!
2018-05-05T14:15:20Z pjb: Functions are always values in lisp.  Only you cannot call a function like this: (funcall 3 sin) or (3 sin), because 3 is not, or doesn't evaluate to a function.  The function argument must be the first argument!  CL takes this opportunity to look up functions in a separate namespace, so that you can use the same name for functions and variables, just like in natural languages, where you can noun verbs and verb nouns.
2018-05-05T14:18:42Z wasamasa: personally, I don't find the "X could have been implemented as CL library" argument convincing
2018-05-05T14:19:04Z wasamasa: I've heard it before in the context of implementing languages, yet I've yet to see someone doing this with CL instead of racket
2018-05-05T14:21:58Z pjb: wasamasa: turing equivalence.
2018-05-05T14:22:04Z wasamasa: lol
2018-05-05T14:22:28Z wasamasa: this is as if arguing that brainfuck is perfectly viable for writing coreutils in
2018-05-05T14:22:34Z wasamasa: practical concerns trump theory
2018-05-05T14:23:17Z pjb: CL is the practical, industrial-strength programming language here…
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2018-05-05T14:26:19Z wasamasa: the practical concern here is that it's not nearly as viable as racket for developing languages with
2018-05-05T14:27:34Z edgar-rft: pjb is right, CL is the reason why this channel here is called #scheme
2018-05-05T14:27:51Z wasamasa: I don't care what you label it as, I care about how well thought through and usable it is for that specific usecase
2018-05-05T14:28:23Z edgar-rft: wasamasa: please read my sentence again...
2018-05-05T14:28:41Z pjb: Well, usability is in the eyes of the beholder, mostly. If you're more experimented in racket, you'll be more productive in racket, and vice-versa.
2018-05-05T14:29:00Z wasamasa: that view ignores the specific features of racket
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2018-05-05T14:29:10Z pjb: But objectively, CL has a standard, and multiple implementations. CL can target more platforms than racket.
2018-05-05T14:29:58Z wasamasa: anyway, it's a complete mystery to me why #lisp regulars keep lurking here, other than for trolling/recruiting purposes
2018-05-05T14:30:25Z pjb: Family. You don't get to choose your family :-)
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2018-05-05T14:31:03Z wasamasa: nobody forces you to stay here and lecture us about CL
2018-05-05T14:31:26Z pjb: The question was about clojure. You could have redirected longshi  to ##lisp.
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2018-05-05T14:33:04Z wasamasa: indeed, but #clojure would be even better
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2018-05-05T15:15:28Z longshi: woah, i'm grateful about your input
2018-05-05T15:15:36Z longshi: both of you, pjb, wasamasa
2018-05-05T15:15:39Z longshi: :)
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2018-05-05T15:42:38Z jcowan_: I don't consider what pjb says here to be trolling or recruitment, or even (most of the time) advocacy.
2018-05-05T15:42:44Z jcowan_: Same with what I say in #lisp
2018-05-05T15:43:15Z jcowan_: (now that Xach has stopped bullying me)
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2018-05-05T15:43:45Z jcowan_: but #scheme is, and #lisp is not, a "home" channel for me
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2018-05-05T15:46:00Z pjb: And comparative language studies is a thing :-)
2018-05-05T15:47:25Z jcowan_: Indeed.
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2018-05-05T16:37:50Z duncanm: I wish generic functions got accepted into the scheme standard
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2018-05-05T16:53:42Z ecraven: duncanm: which sort of generic functions? class? prototype? predicate? ... ;)
2018-05-05T16:55:25Z ecraven: does "serverless" in fact mean anything but outsourcing the servers?
2018-05-05T17:06:16Z duncanm: ecraven: heh, i guess that's the reason why it's not in the standard
2018-05-05T17:07:02Z duncanm: ecraven: yeah, serverless means you don't need to think about  the servers as much
2018-05-05T17:07:25Z duncanm: I guess it goes like this -
2018-05-05T17:07:47Z duncanm: VMs: you need to install the OS, and the app stack and maintain it yourself (updates)
2018-05-05T17:08:03Z duncanm: App Service (that's the Azure term) - you just give us the app, and we'll host it for you
2018-05-05T17:08:31Z duncanm: Functions: You just give the route and what you want to happen, and we'll take care of the rest
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2018-05-05T17:36:34Z ecraven: how do Schemes typically implement a read function that keeps track of the line/column numbers where the forms appeared?
2018-05-05T17:36:40Z ecraven: (for proper error reporting)
2018-05-05T17:36:58Z ecraven: just a hash-table that maps conses to row/column?
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2018-05-05T17:50:59Z wasamasa: there is a r7rs library providing a reader that keeps track of these and more
2018-05-05T17:51:05Z wasamasa: it's by the author of rapid scheme
2018-05-05T17:51:33Z wasamasa: http://snow-fort.org/s/rapid-scheme.org/marc/rapid/read/0.1.3/index.html
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2018-05-05T17:54:30Z ecraven: nice, thanks
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2018-05-05T18:18:06Z gwatt: chez scheme has "annotations" that accompany syntax objects for this purpose
2018-05-05T18:18:37Z ecraven: I'll have to look into this, but I'd prefer not to have separate syntax objects :-/
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2018-05-05T18:20:07Z gwatt: I was unclear. The reader does this for you, and you can access annotations when dealing with syntax objects that you receive as part of a macro
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2018-05-05T18:59:43Z ecraven: thanks, I'll read the part in csug about that ;)
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2018-05-05T21:13:26Z jcowan_: duncanm: I'm going to try to get generic functions into r7rs-large
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2018-05-05T21:36:26Z daviid: great new, but i hope you won't change the original design (clos, mop ...), that would be a terrible mistake
2018-05-05T21:36:33Z daviid: *news
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2018-05-05T22:02:54Z jcowan_: daviid: My proposal will be for predicate-based generic functions and as such completely independent of classes.
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2018-05-05T22:28:53Z daviid: that does not sound too good to me: you still need a topological sort mechanism, to properly dispatch and find applicable methods ... you are going to loose your time trying to redefine what has been invented and reviewed by the best s/w engineer that planet has ever had (no pun itended), just like people think they can write large complex systems using C, or C++, and end up rewriting a lisp machine ...
2018-05-05T22:30:39Z qu1j0t3: is that a reference to Greenspun's 10th
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2018-05-05T22:37:38Z daviid: as said by I can't remember who now :), we have a social problem here :), the technical problem has been sovled already, it is called clos and the mop, but scheme sort of wants to preserve a 'local culture ', imo this is a mistake
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2018-05-05T23:18:26Z jcowan_: daviid: It's arrogance like that that gives CL users a bad name here on #scheme.  If you want CL, you know where to find it.  We want something else either, instead or at the same time.
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2018-05-05T23:20:42Z jcowan_: (er, move comma before "either")
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2018-05-05T23:50:47Z daviid: jcowan_: I'm one of the 'We', stklos, gauche and guile (goops) authors and maintainers are also part of the 'We' ... and I wish scheme would adopt (maybe as one of, to jump o your 'at the same time'), a clos/mop based oop 'system', which would iplement the spec, apart from having define-class (instead of defclass) and define-method (instead of defmethod), ...
2018-05-05T23:52:02Z jcowan_: By all means.  Write a SRFI and either implement it or get someone else to.  If that happens, I will definitely consider it for R7RS-large.
2018-05-05T23:52:22Z jcowan_: Meanwhile, I think that generic functions are what's really important in OOP, and I will write a SRFI that provides them.
2018-05-05T23:53:16Z daviid: jcowan_: yes, agree with both of your last sentences. wrt the formar, I really wish I had time, it's a bit of a dream actually, who knows, one day maybe I will
2018-05-05T23:53:28Z jcowan_ nods
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2018-05-06T00:07:43Z amz3`: is there an implementation of generic function outside of guile?
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2018-05-06T00:13:26Z amz3`: oops is one the main aspect of scheme programming I'have not diven into yet
2018-05-06T00:16:46Z Fare: daviid, don't forget swindle.
2018-05-06T00:19:03Z Fare: or gerbil scheme's object system.
2018-05-06T00:20:01Z jcowan_: amz3`: Chibi has them, and that's the scheme (ha) I intend to elaborate on.
2018-05-06T00:20:10Z amz3`: ok
2018-05-06T00:20:49Z jcowan_: As daviid says, you need some way to sort methods.  Chibi just uses "last installed method wins", but that's obviously flaky: it means that the meaning of a program is determined by the order of imports.
2018-05-06T00:21:42Z jcowan_: So I'm moving toward a system in which one explicitly declares subsumption relationships between predicates.  To be sure, any Scheme that implements subtyping should implicitly assert subsumption of the subclass predicates by the superclass ones.
2018-05-06T00:21:43Z amz3`: it seems chibi allows to use record with generics; that's seems nice
2018-05-06T00:21:55Z jcowan_: The problem now is one of phasing, and I don't have that quite right yet.
2018-05-06T00:22:35Z Fare: Xof had a paper at a recent ELS about a predicate subtyping protocol extension for CLOS.
2018-05-06T00:22:59Z jcowan_: Fare: Pointer?
2018-05-06T00:23:28Z jcowan_: amz3`: Sure, because when you create a record, it has a predicate.
2018-05-06T00:24:06Z Fare: (and there was of course also the language Cecil)
2018-05-06T00:24:24Z amz3`: that seems easier to understand that guile goops, where you need to define class...
2018-05-06T00:24:43Z Fare: jcowan: https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/b5dc/73d350ed7cf3a77d9655757166455b1cc0bc.pdf
2018-05-06T00:25:00Z Fare: or old articles by Craig Chambers, I suppose
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2018-05-06T00:29:51Z jcowan_: thanks, very helpful
2018-05-06T00:32:23Z daviid: amz3: yes, stklos, gauche
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2018-05-06T00:45:57Z daviid: amz3: I think, unlike you :), that goops is easy to understand, the problem is, and for newbie it's a blocker (it leads to heinsenbugs that only advanced guilers can figure out why ...), that guile module's system wants to 'control it' (which is against the spec, but I don't want to go into details here), as a mater of fact a guiler user just asks for help, becuse he/she can't undertand  how to use goops and the module system (
2018-05-06T00:45:57Z daviid: recurrent quiz in #guile) so I wrote a helper, here https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/guile-user/2017-10/msg00027.html
2018-05-06T00:46:39Z daviid: have to go, bbl
2018-05-06T00:53:44Z qu1j0t3: PP/b 9
2018-05-06T00:53:46Z qu1j0t3: oops
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2018-05-06T02:43:24Z daviid: Fare: it seems swindle is unmaintained?
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2018-05-06T03:04:59Z pierpa: Meroon has not been mentioned, If I haven't missed it https://pages.lip6.fr/Christian.Queinnec/WWW/Meroon.html
2018-05-06T03:22:35Z Fare: daviid, well, the author is still alive and relatively young, to consult if needed.
2018-05-06T03:25:55Z daviid: Fare: oh, no, as said earlier, I'm only using clos/mop based system, so guile (goops), but I was concerned peoe here might think it is a road, where I see it is unmainted ...
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2018-05-06T21:12:26Z Zipheir: Heh, minikanren is a lot of fun, but this really feels like writing Scheme in Spanish: caro, conso, absento...
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2018-05-06T21:12:57Z wasamasa: lol
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2018-05-06T23:50:00Z qu1j0t3: :)
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2018-05-07T06:12:08Z wasamasa: I wrote an email to gerald sussman and he replied surprisingly quickly
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2018-05-07T06:16:23Z werkin: nice
2018-05-07T06:16:29Z werkin: What was ita bout?
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2018-05-07T06:17:26Z werkin: it about*
2018-05-07T06:17:39Z wasamasa: the CHICKEN meetup in norway prompted me to look into the RABBIT compiler, I asked him about the scheme code for bootstrapping
2018-05-07T06:18:03Z werkin: Neat
2018-05-07T06:18:24Z ecraven: wasamasa: are you allowed to publish it somewhere?
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2018-05-07T06:18:39Z wasamasa: > We should have included it as an appendix in Guy's thesis!  But we didn't, sigh.  We didn't understand the idea that the systems we had on the DEC PDP-10 would ever disappear!  In those days computer systems lasted for a very long time.
2018-05-07T06:18:54Z wasamasa: he suggests to just rewrite the compiler in a modern scheme
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2018-05-07T06:26:57Z wasamasa: ecraven: the reason why I wrote an email is because the paper suggests hardcore readers to make it run on a new system, extend the compiler and send the new code back to him :P
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2018-05-07T06:30:55Z ecraven: wasamasa: that would be a nice new project, make rabbit run on any backend (like mal, only harder :P)
2018-05-07T06:31:14Z wasamasa: I wanted to port it to the spiritual successor of maclisp, elisp
2018-05-07T06:31:31Z wasamasa: then I'd use the result to mock proponents of guilemacs
2018-05-07T06:31:41Z ecraven: hehe, not a bad idea :D
2018-05-07T06:31:56Z wasamasa: "You can compile Scheme to Emacs Lisp, but it's not terribly useful!"
2018-05-07T06:32:51Z wasamasa: I got as far as porting the toy interpreter in the SCHEME paper preceding the RABBIT one, but it doesn't actually run
2018-05-07T06:33:08Z wasamasa: I suspect there's a few bugs in the code, found an obvious one so far
2018-05-07T06:33:27Z wasamasa: but if the supervisor of the thesis tells me there's no point in continuing with it for bootstrapping purposes, eh...
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2018-05-07T09:18:52Z mg-: wasamasa: there are scheme-meetups in norway? Where? :o
2018-05-07T09:28:08Z C-Keen: mg-: we have had a dev meeting there
2018-05-07T09:28:31Z C-Keen: mg-: but if you want to meet up with norwegian chicken users, visit Kristian and Pedar in Bergen
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2018-05-07T12:39:35Z jcowan: wasamasa: https://github.com/dhess/rabbit-scheme
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2018-05-07T17:53:14Z wasamasa: jcowan: thanks, but I already found that
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2018-05-07T17:53:36Z wasamasa: jcowan: this thing won't run anywhere as is, my task is to translate it to a modern scheme and change the code generator to emit elisp
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2018-05-07T17:55:40Z jcowan: I think you would be better off running it under elisp too
2018-05-07T17:55:56Z jcowan: or possibly a CL implementation
2018-05-07T17:56:01Z wasamasa: I can't though
2018-05-07T17:56:09Z wasamasa: the sources for the actual thing doing it are lost
2018-05-07T17:56:40Z jcowan: what do you mean by "the actual thing doing it"?
2018-05-07T17:56:51Z wasamasa: the scheme interpreter they used for bootstrapping
2018-05-07T17:57:09Z wasamasa: it's not the same as in the SCHEME paper
2018-05-07T17:57:33Z wasamasa: and from yesterday's email I learned that it's not worth bothering looking for the original because it's gone, together with the machine it lived on
2018-05-07T17:58:29Z weinholt: what machine was that?
2018-05-07T17:58:31Z wasamasa: the only reason I see for bothering to make a scheme interpreter in elisp/scheme is for self-hosting
2018-05-07T17:58:52Z wasamasa: a DEC PDP-10
2018-05-07T17:59:03Z jcowan: surely it's close to the one in R0RS or R1RS
2018-05-07T17:59:12Z wasamasa: err, elisp/CL I mean
2018-05-07T17:59:45Z jcowan: It's also possible to get Maclisp running on ITS on KLH on Linux
2018-05-07T18:00:01Z wasamasa: R0RS
2018-05-07T18:00:01Z wasamasa: at the time they were still porting R0RS features to it
2018-05-07T18:00:07Z wasamasa: that won't matter if the code for the simplicistic interpreter is broken
2018-05-07T18:00:15Z jcowan nods
2018-05-07T18:00:26Z wasamasa: there's at least one bug in it, I found an obvious one so far
2018-05-07T18:00:37Z jcowan: the simplistic interpreter, like R[01]RS, depends on Maclisp for its library, though
2018-05-07T18:00:54Z jcowan: as does Rabbit
2018-05-07T18:01:22Z wasamasa: yup
2018-05-07T18:01:22Z wasamasa: anyway, I'll try understanding the underlying ideas of the compiler and forfeit self-hosting
2018-05-07T18:01:22Z wasamasa: surely one doesn't need elisp to do CPS conversion :P
2018-05-07T18:01:52Z wasamasa: I didn't expect they managed to do self-hosting
2018-05-07T18:02:02Z wasamasa: I mean, it explains the strange code
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2018-05-07T18:02:11Z jcowan: you'll need symbols with plists, though
2018-05-07T18:02:18Z jcowan: the whole compiler depends on plists
2018-05-07T18:02:33Z wasamasa: the code that's mostly about code transformation and environments
2018-05-07T18:02:34Z jcowan: granted, you can write a plist emulator using hash tables
2018-05-07T18:02:35Z weinholt: there is a lot of nostaglia about PDP-10s and ITS, maybe you can find the machine and its files: https://github.com/PDP-10/its/issues/181
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2018-05-07T18:03:21Z wasamasa: that shouldn't be a problem
2018-05-07T18:03:32Z wasamasa: if I stick to CHICKEN, I can use its symbol plists support
2018-05-07T18:03:38Z wasamasa: and if not, I can do it the SICP way
2018-05-07T18:04:23Z wasamasa: which basically amounts to using hash tables and some procedures hiding that fact
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2018-05-07T18:04:44Z jcowan: yah
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2018-05-07T18:05:50Z wasamasa: weinholt: I tried booting one before, failed, looked at the manual and decided against it
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2018-05-07T18:21:41Z weinholt: while looking for rabbit i found this interesting make-cell definition from 30 years ago: https://ml.cddddr.org/scheme/msg00679.html
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2018-05-07T18:34:58Z jcowan: weinholt: implementing cells with set!, which is (usually) implemented with cells.
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2018-05-07T18:59:30Z wasamasa: too many call/cc
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2018-05-07T19:31:49Z fare__: wasamasa, if you convert to CPS, there won't be any call/cc left.
2018-05-07T19:32:00Z wasamasa: of course
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2018-05-07T19:37:32Z wasamasa: I'm not the first: https://github.com/hz7k-nzw/rabbit
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2018-05-07T19:39:45Z wasamasa: actually, this might help
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2018-05-07T19:50:04Z wasamasa: like, if I get this running, I can compare how mine fares compared to it
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2018-05-07T21:49:47Z duncanm: this is cute - https://github.com/objecthub/swift-lispkit/
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2018-05-07T22:05:04Z Zipheir: ducanm: It's impressive that they've got so much working. Swift is ... not beautiful.
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2018-05-07T22:14:47Z Zipheir: Ech, everything Apple makes is like a chocolate eclair stuffed with XML
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2018-05-07T23:19:09Z jcowan: Zipheir: Bad XML at that.
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2018-05-07T23:30:59Z qu1j0t3: hehehe
2018-05-07T23:31:23Z qu1j0t3 tosses a fresh plist at jcowan
2018-05-07T23:31:39Z jcowan catches the plist and deftly disembodies it
2018-05-07T23:38:19Z qu1j0t3 goes into bullet time, catches fragments, converts to JSON and returns
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2018-05-08T00:03:18Z Zipheir: s/disembodies/disembowels/ ?
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2018-05-08T00:42:16Z jcowan: Zipheir: A "disembodied property list" is a list with alternating keys and values that is not the plist property of a symbol.
2018-05-08T00:44:45Z jcowan: Technically that is not the same as a Maclisp disembodied plist, but it serves the same role: you use getf and remf instead of get and remprop.
2018-05-08T00:45:46Z jcowan: Technically, a plist can have keys without values, known as indicators, mixed in with the key-value sequences:
2018-05-08T00:46:26Z jcowan: '(foo bar baz) can be a plist with key foo and value bar, plus indicator baz, or else indicator foo plus key bar and value baz
2018-05-08T00:46:49Z jcowan: so although you can search a plist for a specific key, you cannot reliably get a list of all keys.
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2018-05-08T01:01:22Z elly: how can you search a plist for a specific key in that situation?
2018-05-08T01:01:36Z elly: like how do you know (eg) whether baz is a key or value
2018-05-08T01:04:06Z Riastradh: The FM principle, probably.  Same as majority of the rest of computer engineering, really.
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2018-05-08T02:48:26Z elly: what is that?
2018-05-08T02:51:03Z Riastradh: the Fucking Magic principle
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2018-05-08T02:57:16Z Riastradh: This would be a small instance of it: by luck, the key you're looking for might not happen to coincide with some other key's associated value in the plist.
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2018-05-08T03:02:09Z longshi: hi! i've just read about .guile (config) file. is there such a thing for other scheme implementations? i'm mostly interested in chez, because that's what i know/use.
2018-05-08T03:02:35Z longshi: i ask because i was very impressed with what adding readline module has done to geiser support
2018-05-08T03:03:11Z longshi: suddenly everything "just works": autocompletion, jumping to appropriate docs, jumping to definitions…
2018-05-08T03:03:16Z longshi: it's lovely
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2018-05-08T03:46:21Z Zipheir: jcowan: ty, indeed. Should have done my homework before assuming _you_ committed a typo.
2018-05-08T03:54:37Z Zipheir: longshi: I don't believe Chez has a 'chezrc' equivalent. Some people use a script to load what they want on startup, see https://programmingpraxis.com/2017/10/03/chez-scheme-setup
2018-05-08T03:55:57Z Zipheir: longshi: Chez Scheme is not chez moi, however, so I might be totally wrong.
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2018-05-08T03:59:33Z jcowan: Zipheir: I make typos all the time
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2018-05-08T04:00:00Z jcowan: elly: You have to know what the keys and indicators you might find on the plist are.
2018-05-08T04:01:10Z jcowan: So if you know foo is an indicator, you search for it as an element; if you know it's a key, you search for it and if you find it then the next element is the value.
2018-05-08T04:02:27Z jcowan: As Riastradh says, if a value and an indicator collide, you are screwed
2018-05-08T04:02:48Z jcowan: "Doctor, my back hurts when I do this."  "Don't do that, then.  Next!"
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2018-05-08T04:26:52Z Zipheir: Someone should have told Russell that. "I have discovered a way to construct a paradoxical set. This undermines set theory as we know it." "Well, don't construct that set, then."
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2018-05-08T09:18:42Z longshi: hi! anyone has logs from the morning/care to relay? I asked a question early in the morning but fell asleep
2018-05-08T09:21:47Z longshi: okay
2018-05-08T09:21:51Z longshi: found em
2018-05-08T09:21:53Z longshi: :)
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2018-05-08T09:24:45Z longshi: Zipheir: thanks for the link, i haven't seen that blog before!
2018-05-08T09:25:01Z longshi: have a good day, folks!
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2018-05-08T10:44:57Z longshi: I'm reading "History of T" today at work (slow day)
2018-05-08T10:45:23Z longshi: and i'm getting really, really interested in source code for that marvel
2018-05-08T10:45:34Z longshi: is is somwhere in the open?
2018-05-08T10:45:48Z longshi: Does it compile on modern linux boxes???
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2018-05-08T12:27:41Z ecraven: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/T_(programming_language)
2018-05-08T12:27:54Z ecraven: http://mumble.net/~jar/tproject/
2018-05-08T12:27:56Z ecraven: that has source code
2018-05-08T12:28:03Z ecraven: I don't think it runs on current hardware
2018-05-08T12:28:17Z ecraven: but Riastradh has implemented some parts of it on top of Scheme48, iirc
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2018-05-08T12:30:44Z jcowan: ecraven: The problem with T is that it's a native compiler
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2018-05-08T12:33:23Z jcowan: I wrote a non-tail-recursive implementation of T in Common Lisp a long time ago
2018-05-08T12:33:28Z jcowan: nobody liked it, of course
2018-05-08T12:33:55Z jcowan: not Scheme enough for Schemers, too far from CL for Common Lispers
2018-05-08T12:34:00Z ecraven: I find T very interesting, but like multiple dispatch more than its notion of OBJECT
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2018-05-08T12:36:33Z jcowan agrees
2018-05-08T12:40:04Z jcowan: Nobody ever ported T to any Intel machine, never mind ARM
2018-05-08T12:40:21Z jcowan: MIPS, SPARC, and Power were the last machine architectures
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2018-05-08T12:41:36Z jcowan: For similar reasons, you can't run Larceny on Linux-on-Windows, because that is a pure x86_64 environment with no support for 32-bit code, and while Larceny could be built for 64 bits, it would still compile for 32 bits.
2018-05-08T12:45:09Z longshi: thanks!
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2018-05-08T12:45:52Z longshi: i'll have a look at the code (what's available) and try to wrap my head around it
2018-05-08T12:46:00Z longshi: it sounds cool
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2018-05-08T17:07:16Z deuill: It's a shame, Larceny appears to be one of the few Schemes that compiles to native code, supports R7RS, and is almost 100% written in Scheme itself.
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2018-05-08T17:16:15Z Hello_: does compiling to native code through C count? there's a few of those
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2018-05-08T17:21:20Z wasamasa: deuill: its support for modular programming is spotty though
2018-05-08T17:21:34Z wasamasa: deuill: r7rs support is pretty meaningless to me if it's not obvious how to use multiple modules
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2018-05-08T17:49:09Z Zipheir: Native-code compiliation doesn't seem like a hugely important point these days, unless you _really_ need efficiency.
2018-05-08T17:50:55Z Zipheir: Targets like LLVM seem like a good idea (although LLVM's implementation leaves a lot to be desired)
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2018-05-08T18:23:00Z ecraven: Zipheir: there is a definite and noticeable speed difference between the native code compilers (including via C) and others, see https://ecraven.github.io/r7rs-benchmarks
2018-05-08T18:23:11Z ecraven: also, I should continue working on that
2018-05-08T18:25:02Z Zipheir: ecraven: I must be dense, but when you say 'native code ... including via C', what do you mean?
2018-05-08T18:25:28Z Zipheir: ecraven: As opposed to a VM-based compiler?
2018-05-08T18:25:42Z ecraven: as opposed to interpreters
2018-05-08T18:26:21Z ecraven: though I haven't fully investigated this. one of the things I want to add to the benchmarks is some metadata, like interpreter vs. compiler, things like that
2018-05-08T18:26:42Z Zipheir: Oh, got it.
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2018-05-08T18:32:31Z Zipheir: In some cases, e.g. 'chicken' vs. 'chickencsi', it's pretty clear whether the benchmarks relate to the compiler or interpreter. But yeah, more of that would be useful.
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2018-05-08T18:34:21Z wasamasa: ecraven: hm, reminds me that I could maybe help bumping the "test coverage" for CHICKEN
2018-05-08T18:34:33Z wasamasa: ecraven: what's the reason not all test results are shown, incompatibilities?
2018-05-08T18:34:47Z wasamasa: ecraven: or do some tests time out or crash?
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2018-05-08T18:40:52Z ecraven: some  crash when compiling, some crash when running, or don't terminate within the time
2018-05-08T18:41:03Z ecraven: sometimes they bash script just doesn't catch the correct result
2018-05-08T18:41:18Z ecraven: it *should* be simple to just clone the repo, and run ./bench chicken all
2018-05-08T18:41:33Z ecraven: there's a bunch of shell variables at the top you can use to make it run whatever chicken binary you want
2018-05-08T18:48:20Z wasamasa: alright
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2018-05-08T18:52:59Z ecraven: my plan is still to show the full error output in the web, but I haven't got around to implementing that yet :-/
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2018-05-08T18:54:11Z wasamasa: why do you generate .exe files?
2018-05-08T18:59:27Z ecraven: I just needed some sort of file extension
2018-05-08T18:59:31Z ecraven: they are not actually exe files ;)
2018-05-08T18:59:35Z ecraven: just "exe"cutable
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2018-05-08T19:08:46Z jcowan: Zipheir, ecraven: https://bitbucket.org/cowan/r7rs-wg1-infra/src/default/CompilerAvailable.md
2018-05-08T19:08:51Z jcowan: tells what kind of compiler Schemes have
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2018-05-08T19:09:23Z ecraven: great, thanks!
2018-05-08T19:09:37Z jcowan: native compilers, C compilers, bytecode compilers with or without JIT, tree walking interpreters
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2018-05-08T19:12:39Z Zipheir: useful list!
2018-05-08T19:13:01Z jcowan: some of the TWIs may actually have fancier stuff inside but don't say so, I haven't examined the source
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2018-05-08T21:11:57Z wasamasa: ecraven: I thought I've found a good use for the -postlude.scm files, but found the postlude is applied *before* inserting (main)
2018-05-08T21:12:15Z wasamasa: ecraven: that keeps me from wrapping a CHICKEN module around all the code
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2018-05-08T21:16:20Z wasamasa: oh wow: https://github.com/ecraven/r7rs-benchmarks/blob/master/results.Kawa#L1417-L1459
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2018-05-08T21:55:12Z duncanm: wasamasa: what's kawa trying to print there?
2018-05-08T21:55:21Z wasamasa: no clue
2018-05-08T21:55:29Z wasamasa: anyway, I've managed getting compilation to work, almost
2018-05-08T21:55:56Z wasamasa: that might improve the benchmark results, provided that I can figure out why it breaks afterwards on the version hack
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2018-05-08T21:57:01Z wasamasa: which only happens in compiled code, meh
2018-05-08T21:59:59Z wasamasa: well, would you look at that, replacing the hack (which has no place IMO) makes it work
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2018-05-08T22:36:20Z wasamasa: hm, speed seems to be the same, however it allows doing better optimization and makes some benchmarks not crash immediately
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2018-05-09T00:06:58Z Zipheir: rudybot: botsnack
2018-05-09T00:06:59Z rudybot: do I look like I eat vegan botsnacks?
2018-05-09T00:07:19Z Zipheir: touche
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2018-05-09T05:24:42Z ecraven: wasamasa: some of this is a mess, as you've found out ;) I'd be happy about any suggestions on how to improve on it
2018-05-09T05:25:15Z ecraven: the major Schemes aren't a problem, but some of the smaller ones need that "interlude".. the postlude used to be the very last thing, but there were problems with some Scheme, so I moved things around
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2018-05-09T06:11:35Z wasamasa: well, I have no idea about the small ones really
2018-05-09T06:11:57Z wasamasa: anyway, I have improvements for CHICKEN and kawa
2018-05-09T06:12:05Z ecraven: great!
2018-05-09T06:12:37Z wasamasa: for CHICKEN I made one more benchmark run both compiled and interpreted and one bencmark run compiled only
2018-05-09T06:13:03Z wasamasa: for kawa I figured out how to use the compiler, this reduces warnings and overall breakage (but doesn't seem to have an effect on speed)
2018-05-09T06:13:19Z wasamasa: I'm not sure whether it's the --full-tailcalls option
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2018-05-09T07:55:14Z wasamasa: ecraven: you have two new MRs
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2018-05-09T08:02:59Z wasamasa: ecraven: hum, all ironscheme runs fail because no mono could be found
2018-05-09T08:03:10Z wasamasa: ecraven: that might be the easiest of them all to fix :>
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2018-05-09T08:10:44Z ecraven: wasamasa: the problem is that mono and chicken fight for /usr/bin/csc
2018-05-09T08:10:59Z ecraven: I *think* I've installed some arch package that fixes that, but probably didn't run since then
2018-05-09T08:10:59Z wasamasa: but you use env variables for all the compilers
2018-05-09T08:11:07Z ecraven: yes, but I cannot even install the packages on arch
2018-05-09T08:11:16Z wasamasa: tried mono-noconflict yet?
2018-05-09T08:11:28Z ecraven: I think I installed it, but didn't start a run since then
2018-05-09T08:11:30Z wasamasa: ok
2018-05-09T08:11:44Z wasamasa: I wish picrin just ignored (import (scheme char))
2018-05-09T08:11:58Z wasamasa: from my reading it's perfectly fine to support ascii only there
2018-05-09T08:12:03Z wasamasa: no need for full utf-8 tables
2018-05-09T08:12:48Z ecraven: start a PR for picrin?
2018-05-09T08:12:54Z ecraven: wasamasa: thanks for the PRs!
2018-05-09T08:13:07Z wasamasa: there are a few issues where they state they won't ever support it
2018-05-09T08:13:23Z wasamasa: precisely due to this misunderstanding
2018-05-09T08:14:13Z wasamasa: wow, tinyscheme always fails with "atom->string: bad base: 10"
2018-05-09T08:14:38Z ecraven: I think tinyscheme is the one where input/output redirection doesn't work correctly
2018-05-09T08:14:44Z ecraven: it closes stdin/stdout before re-opening them
2018-05-09T08:14:46Z wasamasa: :<
2018-05-09T08:15:05Z wasamasa: somewhat similar, gauche has "*** ERROR: dynamic-parse-datum "Unknown datum: ~s" :"
2018-05-09T08:15:15Z ecraven: I wish I had more time for working on this :-/
2018-05-09T08:15:45Z wasamasa: but that seems to be the benchmark's code
2018-05-09T08:16:08Z ecraven: I've tried to not touch the benchmarks themselves too much, only fixing obvious things for r7rs
2018-05-09T08:17:10Z wasamasa: https://github.com/picrin-scheme/picrin/issues/211
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2018-05-09T08:18:18Z ecraven: is picrin the Scheme with ropes for strings?
2018-05-09T08:18:42Z wasamasa: no clue, for me it's the broken one
2018-05-09T08:18:42Z wasamasa: https://github.com/picrin-scheme/picrin/issues/351
2018-05-09T08:18:47Z wasamasa: couldn't even build it from master
2018-05-09T08:18:52Z wasamasa: or was it the latest stable release?
2018-05-09T08:19:05Z wasamasa: also, this might be relevant: https://github.com/picrin-scheme/picrin/issues/338
2018-05-09T08:19:09Z wasamasa: no forward references is just ugh
2018-05-09T08:19:34Z ecraven: that makes the repl rather useless
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2018-05-09T09:21:48Z ecraven: is there a scheme graphing library? Something I can use to produce a graph of network activity vs. time comparing multiple weeks?
2018-05-09T09:23:12Z vyzo: oooh, someone is into logdiving :)
2018-05-09T09:23:26Z vyzo: gnuplot is your friend
2018-05-09T09:24:07Z ecraven: vyzo: hehe, indeed, but a friend I don't understand well so far :-/
2018-05-09T09:24:25Z ecraven: I'm assuming I need to split the data by weeks, then draw multiple lines into one image?
2018-05-09T09:24:38Z vyzo: well, there are multiple ways to do it
2018-05-09T09:24:44Z vyzo: gnuplot is quite powerful
2018-05-09T09:24:49Z vyzo: it's also quite arcane unfortunately
2018-05-09T09:24:55Z vyzo: and not terribly well deocumented
2018-05-09T09:24:59Z ecraven: we need a Schemely frontend :P
2018-05-09T09:25:07Z vyzo: I wrote something for plt a while back
2018-05-09T09:26:00Z vyzo: ancient, but should still work: https://planet.racket-lang.org/display.ss?package=gnuplot.plt&owner=vyzo
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2018-05-09T13:37:06Z ecraven: vyzo: thanks for making me do this with gnuplot, I really need to learn it properly, this
2018-05-09T13:37:15Z ecraven: this starts to look ok ;)
2018-05-09T13:37:20Z ecraven: and it is fully scripted in Scheme :D
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2018-05-09T14:07:41Z vyzo: nice!
2018-05-09T14:10:34Z jcowan: wasamasa: Compiling in Kawa only compiles away the Scheme->bytecode translation, which is cheap compared to JVM startup and JIT warmup.
2018-05-09T14:11:05Z jcowan: also paging in .class files
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2018-05-09T15:13:21Z stailin: ive been thinking if using kawa is actually as slow as the benchmarks show. i've no use for jvm-specific attributes, but portability is ofc interesting and having been stuck with openbsd, the nicer R7RS implementation are far and between
2018-05-09T15:13:57Z stailin: (some might compile but haven't had luck so far)
2018-05-09T15:14:38Z stailin: the w^x and other sec-stuff i guess is kinda on the way. ie. trying to use scsh is a no go for some mem-access related issues
2018-05-09T15:14:44Z stailin: atleast on x86_64
2018-05-09T15:21:58Z jcowan: I have always wanted to see scsh ported to Chicken or Gambit, but it's hard
2018-05-09T15:22:01Z Kooda: stailin, CHICKEN works fine on OpenBSD, and has R7RS support through an extension.
2018-05-09T15:22:23Z vyzo: gerbil works fine on OpenBSD too
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2018-05-09T15:25:16Z stailin: i have them both yeah
2018-05-09T15:25:27Z stailin: and gambit and racket and etc
2018-05-09T15:25:46Z stailin: i like gerbil, but emacs-tooling is kinda lackluster atm
2018-05-09T15:26:09Z stailin: i'd hope geiser guys take on gerbil
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2018-05-09T15:27:04Z stailin: chicken's some pkggmnt things are also depending on sudo for some reason
2018-05-09T15:27:40Z stailin: i like doas over sudo anytime so it was kind of  chore and wasteful to have to install sudo too
2018-05-09T15:28:34Z stailin: oh yeah i have the following: guile, gauche, gambit, gerbil, kawa, chibi-scheme atleast
2018-05-09T15:29:56Z stailin: i'd love to try out chez scheme since its all the hype but it's bootstrapping shit says it supports amd64 openbsd but ./configuration disagrees
2018-05-09T15:30:24Z stailin: afaik id have to cross-build the bootstrap on linux to get the proper boot files etc.
2018-05-09T15:31:37Z stailin: also building gerbil it kept failing on sqlite even though the headers were installed, so i had to just tell it to ignore all db-related stuff and im feeling kinda castrated
2018-05-09T15:32:14Z stailin: shouldve probably put up an issue but im in the middle of IRL-shit with homelessness etc.
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2018-05-09T15:35:38Z stailin: i also have a way fucked up syntax of my own that ive been building up
2018-05-09T15:35:50Z stailin: apl meets mathematica p. much
2018-05-09T15:36:17Z stailin: ie. factorial definition => (:= ! (λ (∏ (ι _))))
2018-05-09T15:36:53Z cortisol: sounds neat
2018-05-09T15:37:31Z stailin: its fun to implement nevertheless
2018-05-09T15:37:56Z stailin: like im atm making all ref's etc. count indices from 1 not 0
2018-05-09T15:38:33Z stailin: list-ref was easy to implement but i gotta see how vectors are handled for real
2018-05-09T15:40:11Z vyzo: stailin: please open an issue in gerbil!
2018-05-09T15:40:16Z vyzo: OpenBSD is a first class OS for us
2018-05-09T15:41:49Z stailin: ok ill bring it up, i fear that there is not much to say since it fails on sqlite3 (iirc) and its installed all fine and dandy. ill try to offer a better overview
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2018-05-09T15:42:50Z stailin: and thanks vyzo. openbsd is too often overlooked, like in SML-world (i'd rather use SML than Ocaml, but SML/Nj only x86 and no multilib for obsd)
2018-05-09T15:43:37Z stailin: it fails on sqlite3 (iirc) even though its
2018-05-09T15:43:39Z stailin: *
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2018-05-09T15:52:55Z jcowan: Hmm.  I just ran across the idea of combining function overloading with dynamic typing.
2018-05-09T15:53:47Z jcowan: Generic functions obviously (in hindsight) do this, but it's usually implemented as dynamic overriding rather than static overloading.
2018-05-09T15:56:41Z vyzo: ok, open issue so that we can discuss and resolve
2018-05-09T16:00:04Z stailin: atm compiling to get the correct log-files
2018-05-09T16:02:21Z stailin: i could open it anyhow but i like to be specific and hand all the information neccesary right from the start
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2018-05-09T16:05:23Z vyzo: yes, go ahead
2018-05-09T16:05:39Z vyzo: it might take a few days to resolve
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2018-05-09T16:05:47Z vyzo: as we'll need to sync with openbsd peeps
2018-05-09T16:05:52Z vyzo: and i am very busy atm
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2018-05-09T17:19:04Z Kooda: stailin, sudo is not necessary for chicken, you can define the SUDO environment variable as doas and it will use that.
2018-05-09T17:19:59Z Kooda: (and the only use of that is for `chicken-install -s`)
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2018-05-09T18:07:23Z duncanm: jcowan: what's the idea?
2018-05-09T18:08:02Z duncanm: jcowan: i found out about this not too long ago (https://github.com/jnr/jnr-posix) - i wonder if scsh could be ported to run on top of Kawa
2018-05-09T18:08:16Z duncanm: the jruby people seem to have done a lot of the work already
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2018-05-09T18:32:58Z stailin: Kooda: oh thanks, didnt figure that out by myself d'oh
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2018-05-09T21:43:16Z duncanm: jcowan: did you see my message earlier? what's the idea regarding generic functions?
2018-05-09T21:43:51Z jcowan: Not sure I have one exactly.
2018-05-09T21:44:00Z jcowan: Except that they are Good Things.
2018-05-09T21:44:05Z jcowan: probably the best thing about OO.
2018-05-09T21:46:09Z duncanm: you were saying
2018-05-09T21:46:11Z duncanm: >  John Cowan Hmm.  I just ran across the idea of combining function overloading with dynamic typing.
2018-05-09T21:46:58Z duncanm: in CL CLOS, each argument goes thru a CLASS-OF check, which is dynamically determined, isn't it?
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2018-05-09T22:25:42Z mejja: duncanm, Use the source luke! PCL & Closette => https://www.cs.cmu.edu/afs/cs/project/ai-repository/ai/lang/lisp/oop/clos/
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2018-05-09T22:54:13Z jcowan: duncanm: Yes.  I'm wondering if it's possible to combine static overloading and dynamic typing in a way that's weaker than generic functions but potentially more efficient.
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2018-05-10T01:04:08Z Zipheir: Why do procedures like (define (lambda-body e) (caddr e)) show up so commonly in good Scheme code? Is the 'point-free' version (define lambda-body caddr) in bad taste or something?
2018-05-10T01:07:19Z jcowan: Error checking, primarily
2018-05-10T01:07:37Z jcowan: If you invoke (lambda-body e f) you will get an error "lambda-body expects 1 argument, got 2"
2018-05-10T01:08:08Z jcowan: whereas with the point-free definition it will probalby say "caddr expects 1 argument, got 2" and you will be surprised if there are no calls to caddr in your code.
2018-05-10T01:09:16Z jcowan: Zipheir: ^^
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2018-05-10T01:11:04Z Zipheir: Ah, that makes perfect sense.
2018-05-10T01:11:42Z Zipheir: Thanks, jcowan.
2018-05-10T01:12:08Z jcowan: I do use the point-free style for non-exported procedures sometimes
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2018-05-10T01:15:02Z mejja: It's typically faster..
2018-05-10T01:28:22Z aeth: mejja: Doesn't that depend on if the compiler inlines trivial functions? (Although I'm not aware if any Scheme does that. I know in CL you have to manually inline things.)
2018-05-10T01:28:48Z aeth: (Probably the really optimizing ones like Stalin would, and that might be why they take so long to compile.)
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2018-05-10T01:32:09Z jcowan: aeth: Actually you don't; CL compilers often inline.  The "inline" declaration is just a hint.
2018-05-10T01:32:31Z jcowan: "Notinline" OTOH is not a hint: it tells the compiler it is unsafe to inline.
2018-05-10T01:34:39Z jcowan: Chicken will inline at -O2 or highre
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2018-05-10T01:54:57Z aeth: jcowan: looks like SBCL only does it within the same compilation unit (typically a file), so e.g. (with-compilation-unit () (defun foo () (+ 1 1)) (defun bar () (foo)))
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2018-05-10T01:56:49Z aeth: It appears to work even with some trivial non-constant functions, like changing foo to (1+ x) and replacing foo with (foo 4) but it also looks like it isn't that sophisticated because it uses the generic-+ instead of using the fixnum + or just returning 5.
2018-05-10T01:57:02Z aeth: s/replacing foo/replacing (foo)/
2018-05-10T01:59:06Z aeth: So here SBCL does a less efficient inlining than the normal, declared inlining
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2018-05-10T02:00:06Z aeth: How do Schemes tend to handle this?
2018-05-10T02:02:21Z jcowan_: There are as many answers as Schemes, from "not at all" to "brutally" (Stalin, that's why it's called that)
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2018-05-10T02:11:23Z pierpa: from a SE pov, I must note that point-free style usually is a bit more diffucult to understand, Except for a few traditional functions from mathematics.
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2018-05-10T02:12:50Z pierpa: point-full style adds a few bits of redundancy which help reading.
2018-05-10T02:19:42Z Zipheir: It can be overdone, indeed. I'm reminded of variable names: single lowercase letters and longer, descriptive names both have their uses.
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2018-05-10T02:20:25Z Zipheir: Too terse -> confusion. Too verbose -> COBOL.
2018-05-10T02:22:28Z jcowan_: this is only pseudo-pointfree
2018-05-10T02:22:47Z jcowan_: it does not extend beyond mere equation of one operator name to another
2018-05-10T02:23:52Z Zipheir: Right. The potential for cryptic point-free code in Scheme is thus rather low.
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2018-05-10T02:25:39Z jcowan_:  however things like ((if left? left right) x) are perfectly tasteful
2018-05-10T02:26:22Z jcowan_: though there is certainly nothing wrong with (if left? (left x) (right x) either
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2018-05-10T02:32:49Z Zipheir: For real point-free goodness, it would be really cool to embed Backus' FP language in a Scheme.
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2018-05-10T02:37:35Z aeth: (let ((side (if left? left right))) (side x))
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2018-05-10T02:37:45Z aeth: all other styles are wrong
2018-05-10T02:41:36Z klovett_: Zipheir: http://wiki.call-cc.org/eggref/3/fp
2018-05-10T02:42:16Z Zipheir: klovett_: woohoo!
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2018-05-10T07:33:04Z wasamasa: apparently nobody bothered porting that one
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2018-05-10T09:07:24Z ecraven: ;)
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2018-05-10T13:28:27Z badkins: Zipheir: you mentinoed "(define (lambda-body e) (caddr e))" yesterday.  What is "lambda-body" ? I'm not familiar with that.
2018-05-10T13:28:56Z badkins: I presume you're not referring to something like: (define (foo e) (caddr e))
2018-05-10T13:29:45Z badkins: or maybe I'm overthinking, and you just chose "lambda-body" for your function name? :)
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2018-05-10T13:31:44Z badkins: Ah, that does make sense given the caddr - never mind, ignore all of the above :)
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2018-05-10T15:55:28Z ecraven: badkins: just be aware that the lambda body is actually the cddr, as the body can be more than one form
2018-05-10T15:56:12Z badkins: Sure, I wasn't actually concerned with parsing - I initially thought "lambda-body" was a reserved word :)
2018-05-10T15:56:28Z ecraven: there are 0 reserved words in Scheme
2018-05-10T15:56:39Z badkins: "define" ?
2018-05-10T15:56:48Z ecraven: (let ((if (open-input-file "foo"))) (read if))
2018-05-10T15:56:53Z ecraven: (define define 5) should work fine
2018-05-10T15:57:09Z ecraven: after that, you can't define anything any longer ;)
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2018-05-10T15:57:19Z badkins: Ok, how about "well known word" instead then :)
2018-05-10T15:57:49Z ecraven: "identifier with a binding in the libraries that are imported by default" ;P
2018-05-10T15:57:52Z badkins: How do you define "let" before the above ?
2018-05-10T15:58:01Z deuill: Unless you're able to define 'define' however it was defined before it was?
2018-05-10T15:58:29Z badkins: maybe "special form"
2018-05-10T15:58:30Z deuill: i.e. however the runtime, um, defines it.
2018-05-10T16:14:07Z ecraven: most Schemes seem to have some sort of (environment-set! environment symbol value)
2018-05-10T16:14:16Z ecraven: `define' expands to that
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2018-05-10T16:30:17Z ecraven: has anyone else wondered from time to time whether separating #f and '() is the right decision? I've found quite a few times that list processing code would be simpler if those were the same thing... (but then, the same can be said for "" and #f, and *that* is not something I'd ever consider)
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2018-05-10T16:50:03Z vyzo: it's deeper than that
2018-05-10T16:50:06Z vyzo: #f is bottom
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2018-05-10T19:04:53Z Zipheir: ecraven: lambda body is definitely cddr :) That weird version comes from Matthew Might's Scheme->C compiler, which has simplistic one-expression lambdas.
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2018-05-10T19:09:50Z Zipheir: If anyone's interested: http://matt.might.net/articles/compiling-scheme-to-c/
2018-05-10T19:12:22Z jcowan_: ecraven, badkins: there are some restrictions on mangling define, see R6RS section 10 or R7RS section 5.4
2018-05-10T19:13:16Z jcowan_: R7RS says: However, it is an error for a definition to
2018-05-10T19:13:16Z jcowan_: define an identifier whose binding has to be known in order
2018-05-10T19:13:16Z jcowan_: to determine the meaning of the definition itself, or of
2018-05-10T19:13:16Z jcowan_: 5. Program structure 27
2018-05-10T19:13:16Z jcowan_: any preceding definition that belongs to the same group
2018-05-10T19:13:17Z jcowan_: of internal definitions. Similarly, it is an error for an internal
2018-05-10T19:13:19Z jcowan_: definition to define an identifier whose binding has
2018-05-10T19:13:23Z jcowan_: to be known in order to determine the boundary between
2018-05-10T19:13:25Z jcowan_: the internal definitions and the expressions of the body it
2018-05-10T19:13:27Z jcowan_: belongs to.
2018-05-10T19:13:31Z jcowan_: oops, damn 2-column format
2018-05-10T19:13:47Z jcowan_: no, just leave out "5. Program structure" and it reads okay
2018-05-10T19:14:04Z jcowan_: so (define define 3) is an error and so is (begin (define begin list))
2018-05-10T19:21:34Z ecraven: ah, good point, thanks
2018-05-10T19:21:46Z ecraven: so I'd need to redefine `define' without actually using `define'
2018-05-10T19:21:52Z ecraven: (define-syntax define ...) probably?
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2018-05-10T21:08:29Z weinholt: jcowan, r7rs 7.1.7 says that <feature-requirement> in a <cond-expand clause> can be <library name>, it should probably be (library <library name>) as in the other cond-expand?
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2018-05-10T21:09:03Z jcowan: yes, thanks, that's right.  The introduction of the wrapper wasn't until late in the process
2018-05-10T21:09:33Z jcowan: I was perfectly okay with saying that if you name your libraries (and this that) you deserve to lose, but foof`` vetoed that.
2018-05-10T21:09:46Z weinholt: ok
2018-05-10T21:10:34Z jcowan: fixinating it
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2018-05-10T21:25:58Z jcowan: okay, erratum added, syn.tex updated, r7rs.pdf updated
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2018-05-11T05:55:12Z DGASAU: stailin: why SML/NJ again? We have Poly/ML for a long time.
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2018-05-11T12:24:47Z stailin: DGASAU: umm good point im not sure if ive tried building it
2018-05-11T12:25:02Z stailin: is it bootstrapped from SML or is it like a C/C++-thing?
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2018-05-11T12:30:42Z DGASAU: stailin: it is bootstrapped from C++.
2018-05-11T12:34:55Z stailin: let me guess, boost...
2018-05-11T12:35:07Z stailin: j/k ill try if it builds on OpenBSD
2018-05-11T12:35:13Z stailin: thanks
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2018-05-11T13:44:39Z foof``: chibi generics are just a proof of concept, it would be nice to see improvements on that
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2018-05-11T18:23:48Z mazeto: python has a dir function. it is nice for beginners to explore with. you just do like obj.dir() to see what is inside. I wish scheme had something like that. like (dir list) or something.
2018-05-11T18:26:18Z mazeto: excuse me, it's actually dir(obj)
2018-05-11T18:27:03Z mazeto: it rewards explorers. It was such a good time to explore things with it.
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2018-05-11T18:36:32Z stailin: damn poly/ml fails and apparently there already an issue for it on openbsd x86_64
2018-05-11T18:36:45Z stailin: back to mosml
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2018-05-11T18:49:52Z wasamasa: I wish it was as easy to write portable SML as it is with R7RS
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2018-05-11T19:29:27Z stailin: amen to that. sml is so aesthetic adaman son
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2018-05-11T19:35:29Z stailin: my weirdest pet peeve with haskell is the :: denotation for type annotations and : for cons
2018-05-11T19:35:47Z stailin: im ocd as hell and it really grinds my gear
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2018-05-11T20:05:37Z wasamasa: so far I managed getting the same codebase compile with poly/ml and mlton
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2018-05-11T20:05:58Z wasamasa: this is kind of disappointing, considering I pulled off the same trick with 7 R7RS implementations
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2018-05-11T20:11:49Z wasamasa: mosml would have been another nice candidate, IIRC its basis library has a type incompatibility for a time measuring thing
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2018-05-13T11:08:56Z ecraven: jcowan: was it ex or ed you use?
2018-05-13T11:10:10Z ecraven: (asking because I just found this: https://gumroad.com/l/iMtnv)
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2018-05-13T13:20:02Z jcowan: ecraven: I use 'ex'
2018-05-13T13:20:22Z jcowan: evantually I hope to write 'exx' and then use it
2018-05-13T13:20:53Z pjb: Why not a streaming ex? Or a scheme ex?
2018-05-13T13:22:26Z jcowan: I might write it in Scheme, but it won't be Scheme-specific except for having a paren-matching feature
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2018-05-13T13:22:58Z jcowan: besides, as ex is "ed extended', so exx will be 'ex extended'
2018-05-13T13:26:51Z pjb: or a light ex?  so we could write scripts using sed and lex…
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2018-05-13T13:33:03Z jcowan: no, if anything it is a heavier ex, and as such suitable for spell casting.
2018-05-13T13:33:22Z jcowan: for this purpose I spit on Posix, I discard it
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2018-05-13T14:34:23Z stailin: i need mm im feeling a bit stupid atm but is there a way i can mark something like this:
2018-05-13T14:34:27Z stailin:  (define-syntax =>
2018-05-13T14:34:29Z stailin:     (identifier-syntax
2018-05-13T14:34:31Z stailin:      (syntax-violation #f "misplaced aux keyword" #'=>)))
2018-05-13T14:34:34Z stailin: then use it at two different macros
2018-05-13T14:34:49Z stailin: now it seems i can only is at the first one i defined
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2018-05-13T15:03:40Z stailin: i have two different libraries both trying to export it s the one true aux keyword
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2018-05-13T15:50:19Z jcowan: stailin: Yes, that's a problem with Scheme's module systems.  There Can Be Only One.
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2018-05-13T15:51:26Z stailin: oh ok damn, but thanks jcowan
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2018-05-13T15:52:10Z jcowan: You can use import-with-rename to fix the problem locally
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2018-05-13T16:05:39Z stailin: ill keep that in mind
2018-05-13T16:06:07Z stailin: first time fiddling with creating a library and so far its p. okay
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2018-05-13T16:54:19Z ecraven: hm.. does "grep" indeed come from ed's command `g/re/p'?
2018-05-13T16:55:53Z wasamasa: yes
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2018-05-13T17:23:26Z stailin: ive been fiddling with syntax too much https://gist.github.com/karahobny/8f97d25c1a3f81390b54806ec070cc38
2018-05-13T17:23:33Z stailin: havent gotten anything done
2018-05-13T17:24:53Z pjb: ecraven: (echo bar; echo foo; echo baz) >/tmp/f ; (echo 'g/foo/p' ; echo q)|ed  /tmp/f ; vs. ; grep foo /tmp/f
2018-05-13T17:27:06Z pjb: echo 'g/foo/p'|ed -s /tmp/f # even. (to suppress printing the number of line in the file). and q is useless with the redirection.
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2018-05-13T18:00:27Z stailin: is there a guide somewhere on trying to build rapid-scheme with chibi-scheme
2018-05-13T18:00:48Z stailin: it is said that its not worth it, but ive to see for myself
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2018-05-13T18:06:09Z wasamasa: I'd rather use rapid-scheme with larceny
2018-05-13T18:06:23Z wasamasa: that's supposed to work out and will smooth over some of larceny's kinks
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2018-05-13T18:13:27Z stailin: yeah im just not able to build larceny atm
2018-05-13T18:13:35Z stailin: openbsd doesn't do multilib
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2018-05-13T18:43:22Z ecraven: hm.. now I really want to write a gnuplot library that I can use with slime's image support, to directly see plots in the repl :-/
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2018-05-13T19:17:47Z ecraven: does anyone here know of any "data-frame" (like in R) code for any Scheme? for handling and mangling data in a matrix-like format
2018-05-13T19:29:52Z jcowan: srfi 122 is a general multidimensional array package, but not specifically like a data frame
2018-05-13T19:31:00Z ecraven: that might be a good thing to implement data frames on
2018-05-13T19:31:25Z jcowan: actually I would use a set of columns
2018-05-13T19:31:31Z ecraven: Clojure's Incanter seems interesting, how they deal with these concepts
2018-05-13T19:31:37Z jcowan: where each column is a vector, a length, a name
2018-05-13T19:31:43Z jcowan: suitable for general relations, too
2018-05-13T19:32:03Z ecraven: jcowan: given the way data frames are usually used, that's probably a good representation
2018-05-13T19:32:26Z ecraven: every time I use R I wonder how that stuff would work in an actually sane programming language
2018-05-13T19:32:44Z jcowan: Python is reasonably sane and has data frames
2018-05-13T19:35:55Z ecraven: good point, I never think of python in that way, but it probably is
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2018-05-13T19:39:27Z jcowan: $EMPLOYER is using them, I am beginning to switch over to them, but mostly just to read/write CSV files
2018-05-13T19:39:43Z jcowan: internally I still use dictionaries for the most part
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2018-05-13T19:40:19Z ecraven: maybe it is a bad idea to want *everything* to be in Scheme...
2018-05-13T19:40:32Z ecraven: on the other hand, it's my free time, why not :P
2018-05-13T19:40:39Z jcowan: if so, what I am sweating out my life for?  :-)
2018-05-13T19:41:08Z jcowan: I'd love to have a relational algebra SRFI based on frame-style tables
2018-05-13T19:41:34Z ecraven: wouldn't that be at least 2 srfis then, one for the table?
2018-05-13T19:41:55Z jcowan: plausibly, just to make review easier, yes
2018-05-13T19:42:12Z jcowan: could have two implementations, one based on in-memory tables, the other on odbc or sqlite3
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2018-05-13T19:42:35Z ecraven: I'll see how far I get, I've found a few implementations for racket already, just to see what APIs others chose
2018-05-13T19:42:47Z jcowan nods
2018-05-13T19:43:00Z ecraven: I'll really need to look into Pandas, that seems to be used a lot
2018-05-13T19:43:36Z jcowan: yes, that's what I meant by Python
2018-05-13T19:43:38Z ecraven: would be interesting to see how chez compares against numpy :P
2018-05-13T19:43:44Z jcowan laughs
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2018-05-13T19:44:00Z ecraven: (though floating point is decidedly not one of chez's strong points [yet])
2018-05-13T19:44:09Z ecraven: numpy is supposed to be fast, right?
2018-05-13T19:44:11Z jcowan: I had an idea of developing a subset of Scheme which supports only the operations of ANSI SQL 92
2018-05-13T19:45:02Z jcowan: so to select rows you can pass an arbitrary Scheme lambda if your tables are in memory, or its S-expression version (quoted) if your tables are in a RDBMS
2018-05-13T19:45:34Z jcowan: numpy is fast indeed, partly because it's in C
2018-05-13T19:45:47Z ecraven: well, chez in general is rather fast too :P
2018-05-13T19:46:34Z ecraven: I wish I'd win the lottery, and then just finance a few capable Schemers to work on whatever I want to have in Scheme :-/
2018-05-13T19:46:42Z jcowan volunteers like a shot
2018-05-13T19:46:48Z jcowan: albeit rather expensive
2018-05-13T19:47:01Z ecraven: well, that's the reason I'd need the lottery :-)
2018-05-13T19:47:04Z aeth: ecraven: which Scheme?
2018-05-13T19:47:08Z jcowan: yeah
2018-05-13T19:47:09Z ecraven: aeth: r7rs-large :D
2018-05-13T19:47:37Z jcowan: Tackling the non-portable part of R7L is going to be the really tricky bit
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2018-05-13T19:47:49Z ecraven: I really like the vision of having something like the hyperspec (scope-wise) for Scheme
2018-05-13T19:48:21Z jcowan: https://bitbucket.org/cowan/r7rs-wg1-infra/src/default/GreenDocket.md <-- current list of ideas, may need to be pruned/extended
2018-05-13T19:48:58Z jcowan: I think I will take a straw vote before even starting, so we can weed out stuff that the committee (i.e. whoever is interested) doesn't think belongs in the standard
2018-05-13T19:49:01Z ecraven: is that the last one?
2018-05-13T19:49:30Z jcowan: no
2018-05-13T19:49:49Z jcowan: Indigo is for stuff I already think probably won't fly
2018-05-13T19:50:09Z jcowan: Blue is portable but complex
2018-05-13T19:50:35Z jcowan: Lexical is for changes to lexical syntax, which we really want to make all at once if at all, not piecemeal
2018-05-13T19:53:44Z ecraven: agreed
2018-05-13T19:56:01Z jcowan hopes he isn't quite 70 when the job is done
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2018-05-13T19:56:21Z jcowan: I have anothe month plus to the big six oh
2018-05-13T19:57:48Z ecraven: congratulations ;)
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2018-05-13T20:02:41Z jcowan: On surviving so long?  Yeah
2018-05-13T20:03:18Z jcowan: just saying, time may be running out
2018-05-13T20:03:49Z jcowan: It would really really suck for the r7rs-large effort to collapse because the chair had, like, died of old age
2018-05-13T20:03:57Z ecraven: indeed :-/
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2018-05-14T00:43:10Z akkad: will the large effort really be larger than clhs?
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2018-05-14T05:41:02Z ecraven: jcowan_: is this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BNYpmLH6IjQ anything like how you work in ex?
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2018-05-14T11:50:01Z amz3`: scheme ftw!
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2018-05-14T12:09:01Z jcowan: ecraven: Yes, with these exceptions: 1) ex prompts by default, using a colon 2) I don't normally display or edit with absolute line numbers, but with either relative line numbers or (for longer distances) regular expressions specifying lines 3) the z command (which is not in ed) displays a page of text, so I don't have to use that trick of setting a mark and displaying from it
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2018-05-14T13:16:40Z ecraven: jcowan: cool, thanks ;) this looks interesting, though I cannot imagine being very productive myself that way.. I guess you learn to remember things you don't necessarily directly see
2018-05-14T13:17:00Z jcowan nods
2018-05-14T13:17:18Z jcowan: and I do type z a lot.
2018-05-14T13:17:45Z ecraven: ;) I'm reading that Ed Mastery book, it mentions z, I was thinking that'd probably be the one thing I'd type most
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2018-05-14T13:19:43Z jcowan: Ed doesn't have z AFAIK, only ex does
2018-05-14T13:21:08Z ecraven: GNU ed 1.14.2 (on arch linux) has working z
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2018-05-14T13:24:03Z jcowan: oh, okay
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2018-05-14T14:59:12Z mejja: Guten Tag Intriganten
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2018-05-14T15:03:53Z mejja: rudybot, Kann ich die Speisekarte haben, bitte?
2018-05-14T15:03:55Z rudybot: mejja: wenn ich in vim in einem split eine datei öffne, wie kann ich dann den aktuellen pfad der datei schon beim öffnen am anfang im prompt haben?
2018-05-14T15:04:25Z mejja: rudybot, Was können Sie von der Karte empfehlen?
2018-05-14T15:04:27Z rudybot: mejja: should be Kärtchen though, from Karte
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2018-05-14T19:25:02Z jcowan: I've been thinking about a new SRFI for numeric vectors.  I'm wondering what the Right Thing is for u64 and s64 vectors in systems without bignums.  Should we store the values as floats and just say "numbers outside the u53/s64 range don't work", or should we just make them not work period?
2018-05-14T19:25:37Z jcowan: (Schemes without flonums are out of scope: there are only a few toy Schemes without inexact numbers.)
2018-05-14T19:25:53Z jcowan: s/s64/s54/
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2018-05-14T19:27:30Z jcowan: The remaining bignum systems are Picrin, Stalin, and Chicken 4 (but the numbers egg provides bignums and Chicken 5 will have them natively).
2018-05-14T19:27:36Z jcowan: s/bignum/no-bignum
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2018-05-14T19:29:08Z jcowan: also RScheme
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2018-05-14T19:32:41Z gwatt: jcowan: would you have separate vector types for integer and floating point values?
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2018-05-14T19:33:33Z jcowan: The interface provides u1, u8, s8, u16, s16, u32, s32, u64, s64, f32, f64, c64, and c128 vector types.
2018-05-14T19:33:52Z jcowan: The question is how to implement u64 and s64 if the Scheme can't handle exact integers of that size.
2018-05-14T19:34:21Z gwatt: an exception?
2018-05-14T19:35:33Z gwatt: would this be even more specific versions of bytevectors?
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2018-05-14T19:36:18Z jcowan: not sure what you mean
2018-05-14T19:37:12Z jcowan: An exception is one possibility, and the other is to exploit the availability of doubles as 54-bit integers, where we check if the number is out of range before storing it
2018-05-14T19:37:42Z jcowan: That's what I plan to do for s32/u32, where the whole range can be correctly represented as a double
2018-05-14T19:38:16Z jcowan: But maybe this just doesn't matter: I should ignore bignumless Schemes as not important in the Scheme of things.
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2018-05-16T17:51:21Z jcowan: What's the best representation for JSON null in Scheme?  I have three alternatives:
2018-05-16T17:51:39Z jcowan: 1) a unique and immutable JSON object with no properties and no prototype
2018-05-16T17:51:46Z jcowan: 2) a unique Scheme value
2018-05-16T17:51:55Z jcowan: 3) the symbol null
2018-05-16T17:56:41Z ecraven: #!null :D
2018-05-16T17:57:11Z jcowan chuckles
2018-05-16T17:57:19Z ecraven: I think I've used #!unspecific or #!void in Schemes that support it
2018-05-16T17:57:23Z klovett:  jcowan: i have used 2) (define *json-undefined* '(json-undefined)), but would prefer 1)
2018-05-16T17:57:24Z ecraven: but that's clearly not portable
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2018-05-16T17:59:33Z jcowan: klovett: 1 is theoretically best, but involves a null check in every procedure that mutates JSON objects
2018-05-16T18:00:29Z jcowan: symbols have no JSON equivalents, so it is safe to use them
2018-05-16T18:00:49Z klovett: jcowan: yes, i came at it from a "best predicate" standpoint
2018-05-16T18:00:51Z jcowan: I am also considering options 2 and 3 for JavaScript 'undefined'
2018-05-16T18:01:44Z jcowan: In general I prefer (string-copy "magic") to '(magic), but either will work
2018-05-16T18:02:12Z jcowan: the former is more readable in an alist
2018-05-16T18:03:13Z klovett: jcowan: i live in a fantasy world where my cons are immutable to all others
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2018-05-16T18:03:44Z jcowan: even if someone mutates the cons, it keeps its object identity, and ditto for the copied literal string
2018-05-16T18:04:09Z jcowan: most of the time, we all live in an immutable submarine
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2018-05-16T18:04:38Z klovett: jcowan: yes
2018-05-16T18:05:17Z jcowan: my JSON implementation will be based on mutation, though
2018-05-16T18:05:43Z jcowan: I still haven't decided whether to provide functional or mutational SXML procedures, though
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2018-05-16T18:09:02Z ecraven: how will you map objects?
2018-05-16T18:09:07Z ecraven: alists or hash-tables?
2018-05-16T18:09:10Z ecraven: (or both :D)
2018-05-16T18:09:56Z jcowan: alists with @s in them to delimit the object from its prototype, proto's proto, etc.
2018-05-16T18:10:47Z jcowan: so (@ (foo . "bar") (baz . "zam") @ (protoprop . 32))
2018-05-16T18:11:06Z jcowan: the leading @ means that something can be inserted there without breaking object identity
2018-05-16T18:11:23Z jcowan: so a new propertyless object is (@), not ()
2018-05-16T18:11:40Z gwatt: what is () then?
2018-05-16T18:11:46Z gwatt: invalid?
2018-05-16T18:12:14Z ecraven: jcowan: ah, so you don't so much "convert" between Scheme and JSON as you work with a direct JSON representation?
2018-05-16T18:12:15Z jcowan: an empty JSON array
2018-05-16T18:12:17Z ecraven: thus mutable?
2018-05-16T18:12:22Z jcowan: thus mutable.
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2018-05-16T18:12:31Z gwatt: why not use vectors for json arrays?
2018-05-16T18:13:04Z jcowan: I thought about it, but I would end up growing them as lists and then list->vector, and I thought, why bother?
2018-05-16T18:13:21Z jcowan: it's not like you normally want random access to a JSON array
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2018-05-16T18:16:58Z gwatt: also, what do you mean by "prototype"? JSON as a serialization format doesn't have prototypes
2018-05-16T18:18:12Z jcowan: yeah, the package provides JavaScript objects, not just JSON objects
2018-05-16T18:19:14Z gwatt: ah
2018-05-16T18:19:24Z ecraven: jcowan: have you had the need for that?
2018-05-16T18:19:28Z ecraven: that sounds like parenscript to me :D
2018-05-16T18:19:42Z jcowan: a JSON value is one of these Scheme things: a finite real number, a boolean, a string, a list of JSON values, a JSO (JavaScript object) whose keys are symbols and whos values are JSON values, or null.
2018-05-16T18:19:46Z ecraven: in my schemely parenscript copy I've used (object ...) for javascript objects
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2018-05-16T18:20:43Z jcowan: before you can write something as JSON, it is validated by the above rule
2018-05-16T18:20:52Z jcowan: s/something/a Scheme value
2018-05-16T18:23:20Z jcowan: the reason for choosing @ is that it makes an SXML attribute list a JSO, which is very nice
2018-05-16T18:23:52Z jcowan: (oh, I forgot, it's (key value), not (key . value), for that reason)
2018-05-16T18:24:02Z ecraven: do I remember correctly that '@ is not valid in r6rs?
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2018-05-16T18:24:46Z jcowan: yeah, true
2018-05-16T18:25:25Z ecraven: not very relevant, I just came across this on chez
2018-05-16T18:28:32Z jcowan: it's because of ,@foo, which would be ambiguous between , @foo and ,@ fo
2018-05-16T18:28:35Z jcowan: o
2018-05-16T18:28:49Z ecraven: ah, that does indeed make sense
2018-05-16T18:28:53Z jcowan: r7rs says it is ,@ foo
2018-05-16T18:29:01Z ecraven: which is what I would have expected :D
2018-05-16T18:29:13Z jcowan: as do all implementations that aren't R6RS-mustardy
2018-05-16T18:30:10Z ecraven: but I see that this could be a problem for macros that just generate ,foo if foo is @bar
2018-05-16T18:30:42Z jcowan nods
2018-05-16T18:31:22Z jcowan: but there is no ambiguity about (unquote @foo) vs. (splicing-unquote foo), which is what macros would in fact generate
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2018-05-16T18:31:37Z ecraven: ah, of course
2018-05-16T18:31:43Z ecraven: very slow today, sorry
2018-05-16T18:31:48Z jcowan: the existence of a standard expansion of quasiquote into S-expressions is a nice feature of Scheme (vs. Common Lisp where it is implementaiton-defined)
2018-05-16T18:31:50Z jcowan: np
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2018-05-17T14:12:25Z remix2000[m]: Hi! Some people say that scheme code isn't portable between implementations, because the standard is too narrow. Is that true?
2018-05-17T14:14:15Z gnomon: remix2000[m], that has historically been a common stumbling block, but it has gotten less true over time as the standards have evolved.
2018-05-17T14:14:19Z gnomon: ,next
2018-05-17T14:14:27Z gnomon: Another satisfied customer!  NEXTX
2018-05-17T14:14:49Z gwatt: remix2000[m]: That question is a bit confusing. If you follow the standard, schemes that implement the standard will run your code
2018-05-17T14:15:30Z gwatt: But different schemes implement different standards.
2018-05-17T14:16:54Z jcowan: and few of them do so exactly and completely
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2018-05-17T14:17:19Z jcowan: That said, most of the churn is around the edges.  Core code not only works well, but minor deficiencies are easy to fix.
2018-05-17T14:17:51Z remix2000[m]: Which implementations are most conformant to the latest (r7rs) at the moment?
2018-05-17T14:17:52Z jcowan: Just try running a random GWBasic program on VB.NET.
2018-05-17T14:18:32Z jcowan: There's a list at https://bitbucket.org/cowan/r7rs-wg1-infra/src/default/ImplementationSupport.md
2018-05-17T14:18:55Z jcowan: That said, R7RS-small is much smaller than R6RS, and while R7RS-large is intended to solve that problem, it's still a work in progress.
2018-05-17T14:19:25Z jcowan: Per contra, I was able to get John McCarthy's theorem prover from 1958 (the year I was born) running in Scheme with only the most minor changes.
2018-05-17T14:19:48Z jcowan: http://recycledknowledge.blogspot.com/2011/11/john-mccarthy-inventor-of-lisp-died.html
2018-05-17T14:21:04Z remix2000[m]: So which implementations are currently most recommended?
2018-05-17T14:21:51Z jcowan: Depends on the recommender!
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2018-05-17T14:22:30Z jcowan: http://wingolog.org/archives/2013/01/07/an-opinionated-guide-to-scheme-implementations is good advice, but make sure you read the comments too.
2018-05-17T14:27:13Z qu1j0t3: or if you don't wanna read all that, use Chicken
2018-05-17T14:27:25Z qu1j0t3 runz
2018-05-17T14:27:59Z jcowan uses Chicken and Chibi
2018-05-17T14:28:52Z jcowan: I really need a third implementation for test purposes, but I don't have a go-to one yet
2018-05-17T14:32:49Z qu1j0t3: well obviously you need to create one. tradition
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2018-05-17T14:35:27Z gwatt: jcowan: what are you testing?
2018-05-17T14:35:41Z jcowan: the SRFIs I am writing
2018-05-17T14:35:43Z gwatt: ah
2018-05-17T14:35:49Z jcowan: and I am way too busy with those to write my own Scheme
2018-05-17T14:36:04Z daviid: remix2000[m]: don't listen to qu1j0t3 and jcowan :), use guile
2018-05-17T14:36:08Z daviid hides
2018-05-17T14:36:19Z jcowan: although I have a plan for a tiny little Not-Quite-Scheme called Flopsy
2018-05-17T14:36:57Z jcowan: maybe I'll get to it someday
2018-05-17T14:37:45Z jcowan: the idea is you write floating-point code (whose performance sucks in most Schemes) in a stylized way, and then compile it to C and call it with the FFI from your fave Scheme
2018-05-17T14:38:07Z jcowan: because it's a subset of Scheme, you can debug it as Scheme before compiling it
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2018-05-17T14:39:42Z jcowan: similar ideas are Pre-Scheme (the implementation language of Scheme48), Slang (the imp. lang. of Squeak Smalltalk), and an assembler for the AT&T 3B5 that was a subset of C.
2018-05-17T14:40:55Z gwatt: How are floating point numbers transferred from the host scheme to flopsy?
2018-05-17T14:40:57Z jcowan tries yet again to build Sagittarius: it hasn't worked for me lately
2018-05-17T14:41:14Z jcowan: However the FFI does it.  Flopsy natively supports f64vectors
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2018-05-17T14:41:49Z jcowan: my next SRFI will be homogeneous numeric vectors
2018-05-17T14:41:51Z gwatt: I tried to build sagittarius the other day and got some linker error
2018-05-17T14:42:41Z gwatt: so the host scheme would still potentially have to deal with boxing/unboxing floats?
2018-05-17T14:43:22Z jcowan: yes, but hopefully if you are using this it will be on float vectors rather than random float variables, so you can deal with them all at once
2018-05-17T14:44:53Z gwatt: maybe. It sounds like you still have to marshall every float you want for an operation into a vector
2018-05-17T14:46:50Z jcowan: There is a classic argument that initialization of data structures is free, dating back to at least _The Elements of Programming Style_ (1974)
2018-05-17T14:47:17Z qu1j0t3: <3 that book
2018-05-17T14:47:21Z jcowan: namely, if the data structures are small, the time taken to initialize them is also small, and if they are large, the time it takes to manipulate them swamps the time it takes to initialize them
2018-05-17T14:47:25Z jcowan too
2018-05-17T14:47:45Z jcowan: after all, what gets into NumPy also has to be marshalled, but nobody worries about that
2018-05-17T14:48:13Z remix2000[m]: Does r7rs scheme implement threading?
2018-05-17T14:48:29Z jcowan: No.
2018-05-17T14:48:40Z jcowan: No Scheme standard does, though almost all Schemes provide it.
2018-05-17T14:49:12Z remix2000[m]: Is there some compatibility layer for that?
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2018-05-17T14:50:02Z jcowan: SRFI 18 is the closest, but it is very low level (threads, condition variables, etc.)
2018-05-17T14:51:09Z jcowan: The very first example in EPS of bad style is a loop to initialize an identity matrix, that depends on setting the i,j element of the matrix to (i/j)*(j/i)
2018-05-17T14:51:12Z jcowan: integer division of course
2018-05-17T14:51:38Z gwatt: hopefully 1 indexed
2018-05-17T14:51:54Z jcowan: this works, and writes each location only once, but is ridiculous compared to the obvious alternative of setting all values to 0 and then setting the diagonal to 1
2018-05-17T14:52:00Z jcowan: (yes, Fortran and PL/I are 1-indexed)
2018-05-17T14:52:38Z jcowan: all the examples in EPS come from actual programming textbooks of the time
2018-05-17T14:52:51Z gwatt: not familiar with fortran or PL/I, but in C I would probably do:m[i][j] = i == j
2018-05-17T14:52:51Z jcowan: and in EPSv2, some come from EPSv1.
2018-05-17T14:53:20Z jcowan: The question is, is that really faster than the clearer version?
2018-05-17T14:53:30Z jcowan: It's shorter, that's all.
2018-05-17T14:53:37Z gwatt: probably not noticably
2018-05-17T14:53:55Z gwatt: though I also don't think it's significantly less clear
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2018-05-17T14:54:26Z jcowan: it depends on C's data punning about bools and ints
2018-05-17T14:54:40Z gwatt: where I will admit that (i/j)*(j/i) gave me pause
2018-05-17T14:54:46Z jcowan: granted, Lisp is not fundamentally better with "everything but #f is truthy"
2018-05-17T14:55:15Z jcowan thinks Java got it right here: if should take #t or #f and error on anything else
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2018-05-17T14:58:32Z gwatt: I'm looking, but I'm pretty confident that for integer comparison operations you can rely upon the result being 1 or 0.
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2018-05-17T14:58:51Z gwatt: I actually prefer single false, anything else truthy
2018-05-17T14:59:31Z jcowan: Oh, you can rely on it all right, I just think it's bogus
2018-05-17T15:00:41Z gwatt: ah
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2018-05-17T15:12:37Z remix2000[m]: Is there a package system like eggs, but that works for any scheme?
2018-05-17T15:16:38Z jcowan: Not yet
2018-05-17T15:16:52Z jcowan: Snow2 is intended to be that, but only a subset of Schemes support it, and probably only a subset will ever support it.
2018-05-17T15:17:28Z jcowan: Scheme implementers, after all, are DIY people at heart, so standardizing them is like herding cats but more so.
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2018-05-17T15:26:53Z remix2000[m]: It reduces the practicality of scheme overally… So it isn't worth it to learn scheme then?
2018-05-17T15:28:14Z ecraven: remix2000[m]: I don't see it that way. every one of the major implementations has most of the libraries you need
2018-05-17T15:28:31Z ecraven: it just isn't that easy to write *portable* code, but that is true for other languages as well
2018-05-17T15:28:41Z ecraven: (many don't even *have* multiple implementations)
2018-05-17T15:29:43Z daviid: remix2000[m]: what is your objective?
2018-05-17T15:34:52Z remix2000[m]: I want to learn a nice general-purpose language. Scheme looks very nice :)
2018-05-17T15:35:11Z daviid: remix2000[m]: then you can pickup any
2018-05-17T15:35:14Z remix2000[m]: daviid: ↑
2018-05-17T15:36:27Z remix2000[m]: Do you mean any scheme implementation, or generally any language?
2018-05-17T15:36:55Z daviid: any scheme impleentation, just read the lnk jcowan posted and take the one you prefer ...
2018-05-17T15:37:17Z daviid: portability is an illusion
2018-05-17T15:37:54Z remix2000[m]: Ah, ok :) I'll choose most conformant one, so maybe chicken or chibi
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2018-05-17T15:39:09Z jcowan: chibi is conformant but not performant
2018-05-17T15:39:26Z remix2000[m]: Of couse it's an illusion, just look at the python 2 and 3. The same implementation, just different versions… and completely incompatible. ¯_(ツ)_/¯
2018-05-17T15:39:29Z jcowan: (not that that is a necessary opposition, not at all, it's just that Chibi has other goals like small size)
2018-05-17T15:40:01Z jcowan: remix2000[m]: OTOH, look at the major CL implementations, all of which implement ANSI CL quite faithfully, though of course they have extensions that are different
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2018-05-17T16:36:51Z akkad: so much stuff just is not portable on lispworks/allegro
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2018-05-17T16:39:47Z jcowan: True, but you can't expect portability outside the ANS.
2018-05-17T16:42:01Z jcowan: damn, does anyone remember the name, or can find, the description of Will Clinger's threatened implementation of the R6RS that would be strictly conformant but not actually be useful for anything?
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2018-05-17T16:48:39Z akkad: chibi?
2018-05-17T16:49:55Z jcowan: No, that's R7RS
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2018-05-17T16:53:09Z akkad: ahh
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2018-05-17T17:51:23Z weinholt: jcowan, spanky mode in larceny?
2018-05-17T17:52:13Z jcowan: weinholt: Thanks!
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2018-05-17T17:59:05Z remix2000[m]: What do you use for basic operations missing from standard library (r7rs), like folds or filters?
2018-05-17T18:01:39Z jcowan: srfi 1
2018-05-17T18:01:50Z jcowan: highly portable and already packaged by most schemes
2018-05-17T18:03:20Z ecraven: there's a certain set of srfi's that is almost universally implemented
2018-05-17T18:03:34Z ecraven: srfi 13 and srfi 23 are widespread too
2018-05-17T18:05:32Z gwatt: > We don't know exactly how Spanky will process syntax-case macros. Neither will you.
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2018-05-17T18:07:04Z jcowan: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/e/2PACX-1vQxrHktO6N84aXgrxFE_V2LetggjCPY8DDJ9pxiVkmTM2wmZ886A5xH11zFgEYyogm3LIYkMLCrULSi/pubhtml
2018-05-17T18:07:06Z rudybot: http://teensy.info/8GtYaCgEl5
2018-05-17T18:07:12Z jcowan: list of Schemes and the SRFIs they support
2018-05-17T18:07:27Z jcowan: not updated lately
2018-05-17T18:07:44Z ecraven: jcowan: I'm still hoping to extend r7rs-coverage some day :-/
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2018-05-17T19:31:47Z wasamasa: remix2000[m]: use scheme if you like implementing things yourself
2018-05-17T19:32:03Z wasamasa: remix2000[m]: even with something like CHICKEN, you'll sooner or later run into something there's no egg for yet
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2018-05-17T19:34:52Z remix2000[m]: And otherwise? Is there any kind lisp that has a great amount of good packages?
2018-05-17T19:35:18Z wasamasa: clojure
2018-05-17T19:35:38Z wasamasa: more enthusiasts gathering around a single implementation
2018-05-17T19:35:49Z wasamasa: there's a lot for CL, but also less activity around it
2018-05-17T19:36:22Z akkad: most the good CL stuff is aging.
2018-05-17T19:37:13Z wasamasa: I occasionally visit r/lisp and wish I had some of those libraries in scheme
2018-05-17T19:37:34Z akkad: like the bindings?
2018-05-17T19:37:45Z remix2000[m]: Hmm… Clojure is nice, but I like scheme syntax and minimalism more :)
2018-05-17T19:37:49Z akkad: it seems almost anything good, is always a cffi/uffi to some c lib
2018-05-17T19:38:35Z akkad: although asdf port would be nice
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2018-05-17T19:39:20Z remix2000[m]: C binding differ across implementations, don't they?
2018-05-17T19:39:44Z akkad: they're portable mostly
2018-05-17T19:39:52Z akkad: cffi hides all that stuff.
2018-05-17T19:41:29Z wasamasa: nah, I'm speaking of things like that pure lisp gif encoder
2018-05-17T19:41:35Z wasamasa: after dealing with giflib, I'd rather not
2018-05-17T19:41:47Z wasamasa: or an irc bot framework
2018-05-17T19:43:36Z akkad: yeah, that's pretty slick
2018-05-17T19:44:20Z jcowan: but there is no portable ffi for Schemes at allses
2018-05-17T19:44:25Z jcowan: and no prospect of any, alas
2018-05-17T19:44:35Z jcowan: it is one of the things I have ruled out of R7RS-large by chair fiat
2018-05-17T19:47:39Z akkad: I saee
2018-05-17T19:49:04Z jcowan: along with object systems and possibly inheritance (but generic functions are not ruled out)
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2018-05-17T19:50:17Z jcowan: they are all ratholes
2018-05-17T19:53:17Z remix2000[m]: So there is no way to create a portable project relying on cffi?
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2018-05-17T19:54:39Z wasamasa: forget about portable code
2018-05-17T19:56:37Z jcowan: remix2000[m]: Sure there is, within reason
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2018-05-17T21:34:42Z ecraven: jcowan: well, r7rs-large should definitely be enough to *implement* a portable object system, including inheritance
2018-05-17T21:35:12Z jcowan: Oh yes
2018-05-17T21:35:21Z jcowan: it's just that trying to *standardize* one will provoke holy wars
2018-05-17T21:35:42Z jcowan: and perhaps R7RS-large will be the first post-inheritance OO language
2018-05-17T21:35:43Z ecraven: well, if there's a portable implementation, that's not so bad either
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2018-05-17T21:36:02Z jcowan: there exist several reasonably portable ones already, it's not hard
2018-05-17T21:36:16Z jcowan: the hard part is integrating the native type system into it
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2018-05-17T21:36:23Z jcowan: using predicate-based generic functions makes that easy
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2018-05-17T22:03:21Z aeth: inheritance is out of style, anyway
2018-05-17T22:03:32Z aeth: it's all about composition
2018-05-17T22:03:56Z aeth: e.g. In gamedev, Entity Component Systems are the fashionable thing and they are extreme composition
2018-05-17T22:04:42Z aeth: (In an ECS, entities no longer exist in a meaningful sense. You just iterate over components via systems.)
2018-05-17T22:05:28Z aeth: I suppose a component *could* inherit from Component or a system *could* inherit from System, but that's about it.
2018-05-17T22:06:49Z Ober: b
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2018-05-17T22:22:00Z jcowan nods.
2018-05-17T22:27:01Z aeth: I basically only inherit when an API wants me to, e.g. gray streams in CL.
2018-05-17T22:28:15Z jcowan nods
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2018-05-17T22:41:57Z mejja: rudybot, Nods is a municipality in the Jura bernois administrative district in the canton of Bern in Switzerland, located in the French-speaking Bernese Jura.
2018-05-17T22:42:24Z rudybot: mejja: jura impresa runs windows, i'm sure that'd be popular :)
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2018-05-17T23:02:02Z wasamasa: IIRC someone here repeatedly asked about scheme for neural networks
2018-05-17T23:02:12Z wasamasa: I'm looking at the lush manual, it seems to fit that bill perfectly
2018-05-17T23:02:15Z wasamasa: no scheme though
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2018-05-18T02:28:18Z mejja: Blasphemy Alert! https://github.com/Calysto/calysto_scheme/blob/master/calysto_scheme/src/Scheme.py
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2018-05-18T06:40:33Z remix2000[m]: Is there partial application in scheme?
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2018-05-18T07:19:06Z Ober: remix2000[m]: partial what?
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2018-05-18T07:33:59Z remix2000[m]: Ober: sometimes it's very handy, for example in filters https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Partial_application
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2018-05-18T07:37:53Z remix2000[m]: With partial application you can just do ``(filter (> 100) '(…))`` instead of using lambda. IIRC, there is a function called `partial` for that in Clojure.
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2018-05-18T08:15:40Z wasamasa: use cut/cute
2018-05-18T08:15:54Z wasamasa: this allows you to do far more advanced things than partial
2018-05-18T08:16:11Z wasamasa: but the ultimate currying construct is lambda :P
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2018-05-18T10:20:54Z remix2000[m]: wasamasa: nice, thank you :)
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2018-05-18T17:59:23Z amz3: time to scheme!
2018-05-18T17:59:28Z amz3: happy week end all :)
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2018-05-18T19:00:11Z wasamasa: damn you, lush
2018-05-18T19:00:23Z wasamasa: it could very well have been a scheme, being a lisp-1
2018-05-18T19:00:56Z wasamasa: manages feeling even less elegant than elisp
2018-05-18T19:01:37Z ecraven: add new syntax with macros?
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2018-05-18T19:03:31Z wasamasa: it has two different ways of defining unhygienic macros
2018-05-18T19:03:43Z wasamasa: one passes the name of the macro as first argument, the other doesn't
2018-05-18T19:04:21Z wasamasa: anyway, I suspect nobody is using it these days, considering its dynamic loading is completely broken on amd64
2018-05-18T19:04:39Z wasamasa: had to use docker to get a 32bit ubuntu environment working
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2018-05-18T19:05:20Z wasamasa: lush is somewhere between openlisp and lelisp
2018-05-18T19:05:28Z ecraven: never used either :-/
2018-05-18T19:05:32Z ecraven: though I heard lelisp is interesting
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2018-05-18T19:05:37Z wasamasa: also written by french hackers
2018-05-18T19:05:43Z wasamasa: wouldn't surprise me if they share code
2018-05-18T19:05:48Z ecraven: or was it islisp that was interesting?
2018-05-18T19:05:56Z wasamasa: openlisp is an islisp implementation
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2018-05-18T19:06:05Z ecraven: is that the commercial one?
2018-05-18T19:06:11Z wasamasa: yup
2018-05-18T19:06:21Z ecraven: ah, people were talking about it a few weeks ago
2018-05-18T19:06:26Z wasamasa: all of those are commercial-grade
2018-05-18T19:06:45Z ecraven: what was islisp's USP again?
2018-05-18T19:06:48Z wasamasa: lush fills a more specific niche with its focus on scientific programming
2018-05-18T19:07:04Z wasamasa: being a standardized iso thing between scheme and CL :P
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2018-05-18T19:08:15Z wasamasa: https://github.com/wasamasa/mal-candidates/tree/master/lush
2018-05-18T19:08:31Z wasamasa: here's my work for today, judge for yourself
2018-05-18T19:09:19Z ecraven: really? they shortened defun to de, but left defvar?
2018-05-18T19:09:35Z wasamasa: well, you can use defun and defmacro for global scope
2018-05-18T19:09:42Z wasamasa: but all code is using de and setq
2018-05-18T19:09:50Z wasamasa: the compiler told me to use defvar
2018-05-18T19:10:35Z wasamasa: or no, must have been the interpreter
2018-05-18T19:10:59Z wasamasa: they have a compiler for a somewhat different version of the language which you drive with a make-style system
2018-05-18T19:11:53Z ecraven: I sometimes wonder what would have happened if all that energy was put into *one* really great system :-/ but then, maybe the goals are too different
2018-05-18T19:12:04Z wasamasa: they are definitely
2018-05-18T19:12:07Z ecraven: though CL seems to tell a different story, in a way
2018-05-18T19:12:38Z wasamasa: > The compiled dialect is strongly typed, lexically bound, and has no garbage collector, while the interpreted dialect has loose typing, is dynamically bound, and is garbage collected.
2018-05-18T19:13:05Z ecraven: I still believe it is a bad idea to have different interpreted than compiled semantics
2018-05-18T19:13:28Z wasamasa: > The design philosophy of the Lush compiler is somewhat unusual, and, admittedly, in stark violation of many commonly accepted principles of good program- ming language design.
2018-05-18T19:13:42Z ecraven: also, given compiler speeds (see chez), is there any reason *not* to just compile everything? (given the time and knowledge to actually implement a compiler)
2018-05-18T19:14:03Z wasamasa: the compiler is designed to give you code reasonably close to hand-written C
2018-05-18T19:14:17Z wasamasa: this disallows many things taken for granted in a dynamic language
2018-05-18T19:14:20Z ecraven: so it's a bit like prescheme?
2018-05-18T19:14:28Z wasamasa: a bit
2018-05-18T19:14:46Z wasamasa: except that you use that code to crunch arrays of doubles
2018-05-18T19:15:06Z wasamasa: a similar idea is explored in the crunch egg
2018-05-18T19:15:09Z ecraven: have you ever considered writing down all your experiences with the different lisps somewhere? would be very interesting to read
2018-05-18T19:15:21Z wasamasa: I always add notes to that repo
2018-05-18T19:15:28Z wasamasa: and to all my MAL implementations
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2018-05-18T19:16:05Z wasamasa: it's mostly rants though :P
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2018-05-18T19:16:51Z ecraven: hehe, those are often very informative too
2018-05-18T19:17:16Z wasamasa: I believe that if more people tried out the things they're gushing over, we'd have more informed discussions
2018-05-18T19:17:45Z wasamasa: less what-if, more grasp on the status quo
2018-05-18T19:17:56Z ecraven: that sounds reasonable
2018-05-18T19:18:04Z ecraven: thanks for the explanations, I'm off for tonight ;)
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2018-05-18T19:41:48Z amz3: please help https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17104356
2018-05-18T19:42:14Z stailin: vyzo: thanks for your help on this issue https://github.com/vyzo/gerbil/issues/82
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2018-05-18T19:43:18Z stailin: vyzo: you can mark it as closed, but i bet gerbil could use some shell-scripting for build.sh to modify these variables compared to uname
2018-05-18T19:43:30Z stailin: vyzo: like a simple switch/case
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2018-05-18T21:50:45Z telnet: Hi guys! I'm looking to learn scheme, and some googling indicates that chez scheme seems to a pretty commonly used implementation for scheme. would this be fair to say?
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2018-05-18T22:17:40Z wasamasa: nope
2018-05-18T22:17:53Z wasamasa: chez scheme used to be commercial for most of its lifetime
2018-05-18T22:18:04Z wasamasa: that limited its use to the ones willing to fork out money
2018-05-18T22:18:29Z wasamasa: it got open-sources like a year ago which put it into the spotlight
2018-05-18T22:18:34Z wasamasa: *sourced
2018-05-18T22:19:00Z wasamasa: ok, two years
2018-05-18T22:19:16Z wasamasa: that's still nothing compared to scheme implementations that have been around for a decade or longer :P
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2018-05-18T22:21:07Z telnet: do you have one you would recommend?
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2018-05-18T22:23:12Z wasamasa: that entirely depends on what you need
2018-05-18T22:24:11Z wasamasa: like, any special implementation choices, ecosystem, tooling, community, implemented standards, etc.
2018-05-18T22:26:15Z deuill: Guile or Chicken seem to be the most oft-recommended Schemes
2018-05-18T22:26:24Z wasamasa: you're forgetting about racket
2018-05-18T22:27:22Z daviid: telnet: https://wingolog.org/archives/2013/01/07/an-opinionated-guide-to-scheme-implementations
2018-05-18T22:27:25Z deuill: Aye, definitely. Racket has great docs and libraries too
2018-05-18T22:27:48Z telnet: thanks guys
2018-05-18T22:28:03Z wasamasa: like, if you were to insist on the latest scheme standard, chez would be out
2018-05-18T22:29:30Z aeth: The communities seem to be: Racket, Guile, Chicken. In that order. The others are much smaller and probably can't be meaningfully ranked.
2018-05-18T22:30:04Z aeth: A niche one might be what you're looking for, though. e.g. Kawa on the JVM
2018-05-18T22:30:15Z wasamasa: or biwa for JS
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2018-05-18T22:31:53Z wasamasa: or guile/CHICKEN for C
2018-05-18T22:32:23Z aeth: C seems to be a common target. There's more than just those two.
2018-05-18T22:33:46Z daviid: yes, if you want to write app(s) for android, then your only choice is kawa, if you wan't an object orieted system cloe to clos, then it's guile ... if you wan't the one that comes with the max libs, then it's racket ...
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2018-05-18T22:40:13Z wasamasa: err, not guile, I meant gambit
2018-05-18T22:42:11Z jonaslund: daviid: You can always use C impls, i have a feeling Kawa won't be a speed monster (of course depends on what you need.. kawa will be easier to interface to UI's)
2018-05-18T22:43:36Z daviid: telnet: there is new distro called Guix (and GuixSD), and there are written in Guile, it might be a good thing because aside learning, you may be tepted to participate ... but I use guile, so I'm not being truely objective
2018-05-18T22:44:52Z akkad still uses Makfiles instead of build.ss
2018-05-18T22:46:45Z daviid: jonaslund: sure, but kawa will give you access to any java lib, 'just like this', so on andoird, it would be rather stupid, imo, not to use kawa (if the objective is to develop apps  mean ... and kawa is as fast as java itself
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2018-05-18T23:21:58Z akkad: vyzo: your actor model is insanely fast.
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2018-05-18T23:33:13Z daviid: what actor model, any link?
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2018-05-19T01:00:01Z akkad: daviid: https://github.com/vyzo/gerbil/blob/master/doc/tutorial/kvstore.md
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2018-05-19T01:08:39Z daviid: tx
2018-05-19T01:20:40Z jcowan: ecraven: Is your "Schemely parenscript" available anywhere?  I'd be very interested in such a thing.
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2018-05-19T04:49:46Z ecraven: jcowan_: not yet, but I'll but it up. the one thing it does different is, it expands (foo bar baaz quux) to bar.foo(baaz,quux). you need to do (foo - bar) to get foo(bar)
2018-05-19T04:50:10Z ecraven: I've found this helpful, as almost every call in javascript I make needs a dot operator anyway
2018-05-19T04:50:19Z ecraven: it also looks more "functional" that way
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2018-05-19T04:58:07Z daviid: jcowan_: do you use guix?
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2018-05-19T05:16:50Z ecraven: jcowan_: http://ix.io/1aMx this is a longer example of "parenscheme" code
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2018-05-19T05:47:46Z jcowan: daviid: No, I use ubuntu
2018-05-19T05:47:48Z jcowan: and Windows 10
2018-05-19T05:48:03Z daviid: ok, jut curious
2018-05-19T05:48:08Z daviid: *just
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2018-05-19T09:13:23Z remix2000[m]: Is there something like map, but that also passes element index to the function?
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2018-05-19T09:55:23Z pjb: (define (with-index fun) (let ((index -1)) (lambda (x) (set! index (+ 1 index)) (fun index x))))  (map (with-index list) '(a b c)) -->  ((0 a) (1 b) (2 c))
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2018-05-19T10:26:07Z remix2000[m]: pjb: thank you for answer! There isn't such function in srfis though?
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2018-05-19T11:14:23Z pjb: remix2000[m]: I don't know the srfi well enough to know. But I'd guess not.
2018-05-19T11:15:13Z pjb: remix2000[m]: this kind of function would belong to a functional programming toolbox, à la Backus.  cf. https://www.thocp.net/biographies/papers/backus_turingaward_lecture.pdf
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2018-05-19T12:51:39Z wasamasa: remix2000[m]: this kind of stuff lives in srfi-1 if at all
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2018-05-19T13:47:48Z amz3: o/
2018-05-19T13:49:34Z longshi: hi!
2018-05-19T13:49:37Z longshi: :)
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2018-05-19T21:07:03Z jcowan: attempting to build sagittarius from latest source code release rather than from git
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2018-05-19T21:17:16Z jcowan: okay, made it through cmake this time, though with some warnings and some Cygwin-specific nastiness, looks hopeful.
2018-05-19T21:17:41Z jcowan: building ...
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2018-05-19T21:27:37Z jcowan: spewed a raft of disturbing-looking compiler warnings, but completed okay
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2018-05-19T21:31:21Z jcowan: arrgh, build process assumes that $HOME does not have whitespace in it
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2018-05-19T21:31:29Z jcowan: patched up borked results
2018-05-19T21:31:34Z jcowan: rebasing ...
2018-05-19T21:35:42Z jcowan: rebasing in Cygwin is very irritating: you have to shut down every Cygwin process except ash and then run a rebase script.  This is normally done by the installer, but not usually when building from source.
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2018-05-19T21:55:29Z jcowan: bah, puked
2018-05-19T21:55:43Z jcowan: make install failed on a bad argument conversion
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2018-05-19T22:04:11Z ecraven: jcowan_: I think I've not had luck building sagittarius for some months
2018-05-19T22:04:39Z jcowan_ nods
2018-05-19T22:04:53Z jcowan_: If this fails I give up on it
2018-05-19T22:05:07Z jcowan_: (or perhaps roll back to an earlier release, but I don't know which)
2018-05-19T22:05:32Z ecraven: I can check the r7rs-benchmarks history, I did get it running at some point
2018-05-19T22:05:35Z jcowan_: I really need a good R6RS implementation, and Sagittarius and Larceny are unique as R6/R7RS
2018-05-19T22:05:41Z ecraven: not tonight though, time to go to bed
2018-05-19T22:05:49Z jcowan_: sure, thanks, np
2018-05-19T22:06:02Z jcowan_: Larceny won't build on Cygwin and won't run on LoW
2018-05-19T22:06:11Z ecraven: it's on github, if you go back through the commits you'll find one that includes results for sagittarius
2018-05-19T22:06:25Z ecraven: can't you work on linux?
2018-05-19T22:06:50Z jcowan_: If I rent a Linux box from AWS or competitor, yes
2018-05-19T22:07:23Z jcowan_: but Cygwin and LoW are very satisfying, the only issue is that LoW can't run 32-bit Linux executables, and Larceny only generates 32-bit code
2018-05-19T22:08:00Z jcowan_: I have filed a bug against LoW that it needs to support 32-bit code, but ... Microsoft.
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2018-05-19T22:08:20Z jonaslund: I wouldn't expect that to be any priority
2018-05-19T22:08:48Z jcowan: Surely not, but there it is, I can't run Larceny at all
2018-05-19T22:08:56Z jcowan: also it takes Larceny to bootstrap Larceny
2018-05-19T22:09:23Z jcowan: for Chicken I can (carefully) use the MinGW binary to bootstrap it
2018-05-19T22:10:16Z jcowan: okay, installing cmake on LoW
2018-05-19T22:10:39Z jcowan thinks MS should have called Windows 10 "Windows X" instead ...
2018-05-19T22:11:58Z jcowan: cmaking
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2018-05-19T22:24:07Z amz3: what is specific to sagittarius?
2018-05-19T22:29:08Z TCZ: and it should be foldable like galaxy s x
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2018-05-19T22:36:13Z jcowan: okay, now it tells me to install openssl, which is already installed
2018-05-19T22:36:24Z jcowan: I tried installing openssl-dev, but no such package
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2018-05-19T22:58:14Z longshi: what do you need it for that badly? honestly curious :)
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2018-05-19T23:03:50Z jcowan: I need an R6RS implementation for testing purposes, so that I can develop my SRFIs in an R6RS-inclusive way
2018-05-19T23:04:16Z jcowan: Larceny being out, Sagittarius is the next best option because of its R7RS support
2018-05-19T23:04:34Z wasamasa: why not racket?
2018-05-19T23:04:36Z wasamasa: or chez?
2018-05-19T23:05:30Z jcowan: Neither has Cygwin support.  I haven't tried chez on LoW
2018-05-19T23:05:44Z jcowan: IronScheme works awkwardly but usably on Cygwin.
2018-05-19T23:06:25Z jcowan: and it has no build issues, which is good
2018-05-19T23:07:44Z wasamasa: oh, duh
2018-05-19T23:07:47Z jcowan: and Racket's R6RS support is batch-only, which is awkward to use
2018-05-19T23:13:01Z jcowan: Ooh, shiny. Cygwin's Guile is 2.0.14, which means it does R6RS.  Don't know why I didn't think of it before.
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2018-05-20T01:04:08Z jcowan: okay, I now know how to integrate Guile into my existing Chicken/Chibi design pattern for portable modules
2018-05-20T01:04:23Z jcowan: the basic R5RS-ish code goes into foo-impl.scm
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2018-05-20T01:04:50Z jcowan: foo.sld is the Chibi lib, which gives the module name, R7RS imports and exports, and includes foo-impl.scm
2018-05-20T01:05:35Z jcowan: foo.scm is the Chicken lib, which also gives these things, but you have to (import (only chicken export include)) to get export and include (which are automatic parts of R7RS))
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2018-05-20T01:06:01Z jcowan: foo is the Guile lib, same things, but (import (only (guile) include)) to get include (export is provided by R6RS module language)
2018-05-20T01:06:19Z jcowan: and exports have to come before imports to keep Guile happy
2018-05-20T01:06:55Z wasamasa: I think I'll switch to that pattern, but for a vain reason
2018-05-20T01:07:28Z wasamasa: I've customized emacs so that the outermost parentheses are darker than the inner ones, this won't work with modules surrounding the code
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2018-05-20T01:08:12Z jcowan chuckles
2018-05-20T01:10:48Z jcowan: the only remaining grief is SRFI-9/R7RS define-record-type vs. R6RS define-record-type
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2018-05-20T01:19:51Z jcowan: bah
2018-05-20T01:20:47Z jcowan: the above filename pattern won't quite work, because guile tries to load foo.scm before foo, and foo.scm is meant for Chicken
2018-05-20T01:21:34Z jcowan: the compiled extensions don't kill each other, though, maybe I'll just have to compile everything
2018-05-20T01:22:18Z jcowan wishes Chicken would support modules with extensions other than .scm
2018-05-20T01:23:28Z jcowan: say by putting the source file name into the foo.import.scm file rather than just assuming it's foo.scm
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2018-05-20T01:59:29Z akkad: what test would you use for sort! on a list of symbols?
2018-05-20T02:04:55Z daviid: equal?
2018-05-20T02:05:56Z daviid: oh misundertood, thought you wanted a test-suite test
2018-05-20T02:06:00Z daviid: of the result
2018-05-20T02:06:17Z daviid: symbols maybe tested for equaity using eq?
2018-05-20T02:08:56Z daviid: akkad: and for sort!, i think you'd have to use string<? on symbol->string
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2018-05-20T02:17:18Z akkad: guess I could convert in case of symbol to string. thanks
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2018-05-20T02:56:52Z jcowan: akkad: yes, symbols have no natural ordering
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2018-05-20T04:43:28Z gwatt: jcowan: Why do you need chez to play nice with cygwin? Unless you want the latest master build, you can use the installer on their github page and add the exes to your path
2018-05-20T04:44:29Z jcowan: Because Cygwin's shell is not a WinTerm, it's a modified XTerm.  Consequently, ^Z is not EOF but kills the process in trying to stop it, and ^D doesn't do anything at all.
2018-05-20T04:44:38Z jcowan: s/is not/is not running in
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2018-05-20T04:44:54Z jcowan: The same problem arises with Java programs, but most of them don't read from stdin.
2018-05-20T04:45:20Z jcowan: Non-interactive Windows programs are fine, but REPLs just horribly don't work.
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2018-05-20T04:46:40Z jcowan: You can run Cygwin bash in a Windows console, but it is very painful.
2018-05-20T04:47:05Z jcowan: I built Sagittarius 0.8.9 fine in LoW, trying now in Cygwin
2018-05-20T04:47:55Z jcowan: cmakes ok, building ...
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2018-05-20T04:49:40Z jcowan: ecraven: thanks for the suggestion, I looked at the last sagittarius logfile in r7rs-benchmarks and then tried older releases of sash until I got one tha tworked.
2018-05-20T04:52:36Z jcowan: nope, cygwin build still fails on what a SQLWCHAR is (it's short, unlike a wchar which is not).
2018-05-20T04:52:44Z jcowan: bah
2018-05-20T04:52:59Z gwatt: clearly you must write your own r6rs scheme
2018-05-20T04:53:09Z gwatt: tis the only way
2018-05-20T04:54:00Z jcowan: In any case, there doesn't seem to be any way to augment the sag load path except to call add-load-path before importing
2018-05-20T04:54:08Z jcowan: and it does not include "." by default
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2018-05-20T09:10:52Z remix2000[m]: Does anyone here use scheme at work?
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2018-05-20T10:01:29Z longshi: jcowan_: did you manage to make guile work for you?
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2018-05-20T11:28:20Z wasamasa: remix2000[m]: I'm writing and reviewing code for one scheme project at work
2018-05-20T11:28:40Z wasamasa: remix2000[m]: there's another one, but it happened way before I joined the company
2018-05-20T11:30:45Z remix2000[m]: wasamasa: What kind of software is it?
2018-05-20T11:31:22Z wasamasa: their homepage, built with a static website generator
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2018-05-20T12:03:02Z ecraven: remix2000[m]: I use it for freelance web projects sometimes
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2018-05-20T12:09:27Z remix2000[m]: ecraven: for static generation, or as backend?
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2018-05-20T12:49:28Z jcowan_: longshi: yes
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2018-05-20T12:51:37Z amz3: remix2000[m]: good question
2018-05-20T12:52:07Z amz3: remix2000[m]: I don't use scheme, but I may start something around my database
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2018-05-20T12:52:18Z amz3: remix2000[m]: that is partly written in scheme
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2018-05-20T12:54:07Z amz3: my plan is to replace the use of git for data science projects
2018-05-20T12:55:03Z amz3: I still need to figure a good user/developer interface that is how data scientist will access their data
2018-05-20T12:56:11Z remix2000[m]: amz3: That's interesting. What is the use of git in data science?
2018-05-20T12:56:20Z wasamasa: amz3: do you mean an API?
2018-05-20T12:56:30Z amz3: in this regard, the idea I have right now, that may change, is to query the data using the pseudo sparql language and return pandas frames
2018-05-20T12:56:36Z amz3: wasamasa: yes.
2018-05-20T12:56:40Z wasamasa: amz3: lush is a lisp for scientific computing, it has some neat ideas there
2018-05-20T12:57:01Z wasamasa: like, self-callable data structures
2018-05-20T12:57:02Z amz3: wasamasa: tx, you have good tips as always :)
2018-05-20T12:57:27Z wasamasa: I doubt it does query stuff though, I've just seen tons of matrix/tensor operations
2018-05-20T12:57:39Z amz3: remix2000[m]: to keep track of different version of datasets
2018-05-20T12:58:03Z wasamasa: that being said, I only got lush working in a 32bit ubuntu docker image :P
2018-05-20T12:58:22Z wasamasa: https://github.com/wasamasa/mal-candidates/blob/master/lush/Dockerfile
2018-05-20T12:59:06Z amz3: remix2000[m]: and see how it evolves over time, the main use case, I have in mind, is to store datasets, and keep track of changes to them to be able to run new algorithms on them, while the datasets a refined and cleaned
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2018-05-20T13:02:06Z amz3: basically, treat data like code when it comes to traceability
2018-05-20T13:02:09Z remix2000[m]: amz3:  Oh, ok. I see. I have never had any experiences with data science. :)
2018-05-20T13:02:34Z amz3: remix2000[m]: why do you ask about scheme in the work place?
2018-05-20T13:03:29Z remix2000[m]: I'm just curious if someone uses it professionally.
2018-05-20T13:04:03Z amz3: well, I use profesionnaly in terms of practice but not in terms of hours ie. I only work on scheme during the week ends
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2018-05-20T13:53:33Z longshi: so recently i've been reading about T project--and one thing that stuck with me was the cool name--somehow feels familiar for the mainstream coders (being a one letter :D) and that it was a really high quality compiler. (And lambdas all the way down, including GC. That's awesome.)
2018-05-20T13:53:57Z amz3: what is this?
2018-05-20T13:53:59Z amz3: link?
2018-05-20T13:54:09Z longshi: T project?
2018-05-20T13:54:15Z longshi: coming...
2018-05-20T13:54:40Z amz3: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/T_(programming_language)
2018-05-20T13:54:42Z amz3: ?
2018-05-20T13:54:45Z longshi: http://www.paulgraham.com/thist.html
2018-05-20T13:54:52Z longshi: yeah, this is it
2018-05-20T13:55:32Z longshi: the Olin Shivers' (one of the implementors) story is how i found it
2018-05-20T13:55:50Z amz3: paulgraham?
2018-05-20T13:56:26Z longshi: He's a lisp evangelist and Y Combinator founder
2018-05-20T13:56:30Z longshi: smart dude
2018-05-20T13:56:39Z longshi: lots of interesting stuff on that page
2018-05-20T13:56:48Z longshi: he's written a few books on Common Lisp
2018-05-20T13:57:09Z amz3: I know who he is, too bad he did not see scheme light ;)
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2018-05-20T13:58:21Z longshi: At some point he actually said that T was his favourite lisp (scheme) implementation
2018-05-20T13:58:50Z longshi: Somewhere on comp.lang.scheme iirc
2018-05-20T13:59:56Z longshi: So about this T thing: i've been thinking about modern T. T 2.0 if you wish. It maybe foolish and grandiose and unscheme-y to think about "one scheme to rule them all", but almost all the components are there
2018-05-20T14:00:24Z longshi: Chez Scheme is a very fast, reliable implementation with well-done and thourough docs
2018-05-20T14:00:52Z amz3: it's already difficult to market scheme, if there yet another 'rule them all' scheme, it won't make difference ;)
2018-05-20T14:01:09Z longshi: weinholt is writing a akkuscm, a package manager with `sweet spot for scheme`
2018-05-20T14:01:20Z longshi: amz3: well, yeah
2018-05-20T14:01:22Z longshi: that's true
2018-05-20T14:01:43Z amz3: I must not stop you in your investigation
2018-05-20T14:01:46Z longshi: but it might be easier if it's named T, tlang or something
2018-05-20T14:02:20Z longshi: I'm just amazed everyday that people contiune using python or ruby to script and build stuff
2018-05-20T14:02:29Z longshi: when there's chez and racket and guile
2018-05-20T14:02:54Z longshi: Maybe Racket is destined to be this one scheme to rule them all
2018-05-20T14:03:11Z longshi: especially if they manage to make it as fast as chez is
2018-05-20T14:03:51Z longshi: (now that they replace the racket's backend for chez's)
2018-05-20T14:04:08Z longshi: but yeah.
2018-05-20T14:04:49Z longshi: ...and with chez-exe by gwatt, chez can make fat binaries
2018-05-20T14:05:20Z longshi: i'm looking into porting fibers
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2018-05-20T14:06:01Z amz3: porting fibers to what?
2018-05-20T14:06:16Z amz3: the problem of racket is the absence of support of posix threads, otherwise I would be using it
2018-05-20T14:06:26Z longshi: This Chez (T 2.0) could have everything, toolchain wise, that golang has. And toolchain is what makes it a great language.
2018-05-20T14:06:37Z longshi: porting fibers from guile to chez
2018-05-20T14:06:54Z amz3: wow! that's what I have been asking for on chez mailling list
2018-05-20T14:07:12Z amz3: please tell me your github/gitlab/whatever handle so that I can follow your progress
2018-05-20T14:07:52Z amz3: what do you mean by toolchain? make replacement, dependency like python's pip or pipenv (or like akku) and what else?
2018-05-20T14:08:25Z longshi: i haven't even really started yet, i'll surely post it everywhere when i'll have something working
2018-05-20T14:09:32Z longshi: well--debugger, profiler, nice docs, package manager (which golang is about to get with vgo)
2018-05-20T14:10:01Z longshi: ability to make fat binaries is awesome and makes life so much easier
2018-05-20T14:10:34Z amz3: yep :)
2018-05-20T14:10:35Z longshi: thinking about deploying/managing  python code gives me headaches
2018-05-20T14:11:04Z amz3: what do you plan to do regarding architecture deployement? like do you plan to replace ansible or something?
2018-05-20T14:11:13Z amz3: any devops plan?
2018-05-20T14:11:41Z longshi: and with chez, you just compile everything and add petite to execute it
2018-05-20T14:11:45Z longshi: works like magic
2018-05-20T14:13:09Z amz3: that's not a devops plan, binaries are handy, but not a solution for system dependencies
2018-05-20T14:13:40Z longshi: i dunno man, this stuff is hard
2018-05-20T14:13:58Z longshi: i really like what weinholt is doing with akku
2018-05-20T14:14:01Z amz3: even if nobody asked, I think the best way to go is to use 'guixsd' the _only_ problem is that their ops initiative is still a ground zero
2018-05-20T14:14:11Z longshi: and there's guix
2018-05-20T14:16:04Z longshi: amz3: yeah.
2018-05-20T14:16:47Z longshi: So a lot to think about--worst thing is, i still don't feel like i'm a competent scheme hacker
2018-05-20T14:17:11Z longshi: but it's such a pleasent feeling, to write code in scheme
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2018-05-20T14:17:34Z wasamasa: how many scheme package managers do we have by now?
2018-05-20T14:17:48Z longshi: so i think i'm going to stay with it and stand by it
2018-05-20T14:18:41Z wasamasa: http://snow-fort.org/
2018-05-20T14:18:43Z longshi: https://weinholt.se/articles/so-many-scheme-package-managers/ this article mentions 8
2018-05-20T14:19:15Z longshi: and akku, which is 9th
2018-05-20T14:19:28Z longshi: cool, i haven't seen snow-fort before
2018-05-20T14:19:40Z longshi: wasamasa: thanks!
2018-05-20T14:20:23Z amz3: at some point, one has to choose between advancing the scheme tech or the scheme fame, I think, so far schemers have focused on scheme tech, I think
2018-05-20T14:20:49Z wasamasa: "I can not write my software with R7RS as the target language. My critiques are too numerous and I don’t even know how my name got into the standard."
2018-05-20T14:20:56Z wasamasa: welp, guess I won't be using that one
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2018-05-20T14:21:33Z amz3: to make scheme an industry success, we (?) must build actual software that end users (for some definition of it) will want to use
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2018-05-20T14:22:23Z amz3: right now, it seems to me scheme has focused on students and developers some kind of dev2dev market which is great but doesn't help broaden the horizon
2018-05-20T14:23:09Z wasamasa: what is this market you're speaking of
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2018-05-20T14:23:28Z longshi: I thought about teaching intro to programming with chez--i love its expression editor, one doesn't have to use any editor to get started.
2018-05-20T14:23:47Z longshi: and i'll be going back to uni in October
2018-05-20T14:24:10Z longshi: So i'll try to recruit some poor souls
2018-05-20T14:24:12Z siraben: There's a package manager for Scheme?  I've been rolling my own programs all this time.
2018-05-20T14:24:23Z siraben: Pattern matcher, test suite
2018-05-20T14:24:51Z longshi: and corrupt their souls with incantations from little schemer and sicp
2018-05-20T14:25:01Z siraben: chez scheme has an amazing trace
2018-05-20T14:25:18Z siraben: Guile's debugging suite is also good
2018-05-20T14:25:41Z siraben: longshi: such as?
2018-05-20T14:26:27Z longshi: amz3: well, the implementations are amazing and fast, it's the boring stuff now: writing ffi bindings to useful c code and writing useful code :)
2018-05-20T14:26:41Z longshi: siraben: what do you mean?
2018-05-20T14:26:57Z longshi: do you ask about incantations?
2018-05-20T14:27:00Z siraben: Yes
2018-05-20T14:27:44Z siraben: I think Scheme as a language encourages people to "roll their own" a lot
2018-05-20T14:28:10Z siraben: But it would be nice to have a good package manager, which ones are people using?
2018-05-20T14:28:11Z longshi: well, in terms of syllabus, im gonna steal from SICP
2018-05-20T14:28:21Z longshi: especially intro
2018-05-20T14:28:24Z longshi: 1a and 1b
2018-05-20T14:28:28Z siraben: SICP should embrace pattern matching more
2018-05-20T14:28:37Z longshi: i plan on teaching philosophers
2018-05-20T14:28:44Z siraben: They removed it from the book, but it's in lecture 4a
2018-05-20T14:28:45Z wasamasa: lol
2018-05-20T14:28:49Z longshi: so i don't know
2018-05-20T14:28:55Z longshi: we'll see
2018-05-20T14:28:59Z wasamasa: the last time a philosopher learned programming, they created surprisingly frustrating games
2018-05-20T14:29:01Z siraben: Arguably the pattern matching is the most useful thing
2018-05-20T14:29:09Z siraben: wasamasa: philosophers make games?
2018-05-20T14:29:13Z longshi: wasamasa: you refer to...?
2018-05-20T14:29:17Z wasamasa: QWOP
2018-05-20T14:29:35Z wasamasa: and more recently, Getting Over It
2018-05-20T14:29:48Z longshi: well, philosophers are a good pedagogical target because they learn logic and semiotics
2018-05-20T14:29:58Z siraben: "He taught himself to make games while he was procrastinating from finishing his dissertation in philosophy."
2018-05-20T14:29:58Z longshi: or at least, they're supposed to
2018-05-20T14:30:06Z siraben: from Wikipedia
2018-05-20T14:30:14Z longshi: and scheme is not only a language, it can be a meta-language for itself
2018-05-20T14:30:18Z siraben: longshi: logic programming would be good
2018-05-20T14:30:37Z siraben: I think minikanren & microkanren is the most minimal ones right now
2018-05-20T14:30:39Z longshi: so it's useful and interesting for philosophers even as a notation
2018-05-20T14:30:50Z longshi: and not an implementation
2018-05-20T14:31:34Z siraben: longshi: Philosophy comes up a lot in SICP, especially wrt to object identity
2018-05-20T14:31:43Z siraben: (define a 5) (define b 5) is a = b?
2018-05-20T14:31:54Z siraben: Yes if in a functional world, no if you have set!
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2018-05-20T14:32:02Z longshi: Bennett Foddy--i haven't heard about the guy!
2018-05-20T14:32:43Z longshi: logic programming is really cool and it `feels` familiar to philosophy grads
2018-05-20T14:32:55Z longshi: (spoken by a philosophy grad)
2018-05-20T14:32:56Z siraben: Yes, there's a lot of "there exists" and "such that"
2018-05-20T14:33:17Z siraben: You can define append relationally and it would make complete sense to a philosophy student
2018-05-20T14:33:29Z siraben: Whereas its recursive definition could be awkward
2018-05-20T14:33:50Z siraben: longshi: Would Prolog not be more appropriate for philosophy students?
2018-05-20T14:34:01Z longshi: yeah. and laziness is a good motivator--i'd love to have had a scheme interpreter proof stuff for me when i was learing FOL
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2018-05-20T14:34:12Z siraben: FOL?
2018-05-20T14:34:14Z longshi: you can implement it in scheme
2018-05-20T14:34:17Z longshi: first order logic
2018-05-20T14:34:21Z siraben: Oh
2018-05-20T14:34:31Z longshi: first order calculus would be more appropriate i guess
2018-05-20T14:34:37Z siraben: I've always wanted to see a proof checker/type inferencer in Scheme
2018-05-20T14:34:41Z siraben: I don't have the knowledge yet
2018-05-20T14:35:37Z siraben: I think Will Byrd implemented a proof check in minikanren (Scheme) and since it's relational, the hypothesis was given and the program generated the proof
2018-05-20T14:36:10Z longshi: i haven't seen/used minikanren before
2018-05-20T14:36:15Z longshi: i'll have a look at it
2018-05-20T14:36:15Z siraben: It proved (a -> b) && (b -> c) then (a -> c)
2018-05-20T14:36:19Z siraben: Read the microkanren paper
2018-05-20T14:36:28Z siraben: The code is 43 lines long, a little longer with helper functions
2018-05-20T14:36:50Z siraben: http://minikanren.org/#microKanrenPaper
2018-05-20T14:37:00Z longshi: nice!
2018-05-20T14:37:36Z longshi just wanted something like it for this calm sunday evening
2018-05-20T14:37:40Z siraben: I wrote on top of that to have a program that generates grammatically English sentences.
2018-05-20T14:37:46Z siraben: grammatically correct*
2018-05-20T14:37:54Z siraben is highly ironic
2018-05-20T14:38:03Z longshi: xD
2018-05-20T14:38:24Z siraben: I got sentences like "The dog eats with the cat", "The dog eats in the book"
2018-05-20T14:38:25Z siraben: etc.
2018-05-20T14:38:57Z siraben: When I have time this summer I'll look into the full minikanren implementation, especially their implementation of "not equals" =/=
2018-05-20T14:39:23Z siraben: e.g. let x be a variable such that x =/= 4, and x is even
2018-05-20T14:39:43Z siraben: Negation always seems to cause problems in logic programming
2018-05-20T14:40:38Z siraben: longshi: How much logic have you studied?
2018-05-20T14:40:41Z longshi: Well, like I said, it's still just a plan: i'll take some notes, do some thinking and try to organize myself a scheme lab closer to autumn--but i'm optimistic. Coding is hot right now, everyone wants to get rich writing javascript--philosophers too
2018-05-20T14:41:03Z siraben: Ugh Javascript -- how do people even put up with that?
2018-05-20T14:41:18Z longshi: I've had amazing professors teaching me, but still not enough
2018-05-20T14:41:34Z siraben: A statement like x = x + 1; can have side effects other than changing x if x has a .toString() method
2018-05-20T14:41:38Z siraben: Or something like that
2018-05-20T14:41:43Z longshi: i wrote my thesis in lambda calculus though--that's how i started coding in scheme
2018-05-20T14:42:10Z siraben: Your thesis in lambda calculus? Was it about lambda calculus, or encoded in the lambda calculus :p
2018-05-20T14:42:12Z longshi: and coding in general. Before that it was only some Ruby apps
2018-05-20T14:42:18Z longshi: on*
2018-05-20T14:42:31Z siraben: What was your topic about?
2018-05-20T14:42:37Z siraben: Like more specifically
2018-05-20T14:42:40Z longshi: It was about lambda calculus--what is it, why it is important for philosophers
2018-05-20T14:42:56Z longshi: So first part was about history
2018-05-20T14:42:59Z siraben: Lambda calculus was a turning point in programming for me, programming without side effects
2018-05-20T14:43:11Z siraben: I expect studying Haskell will also blow my mind again
2018-05-20T14:43:24Z longshi: and bunch of definitions--what's an algorithm, what does it mean to be computable
2018-05-20T14:43:40Z siraben: It's like, you don't need mutation at all. You don't need an infinite tape of symbols.
2018-05-20T14:43:47Z longshi: and the second part was intro to lambda calculus
2018-05-20T14:43:58Z longshi: and that's it :)
2018-05-20T14:44:11Z siraben: I haven't studied the Church-Turing thesis in detail
2018-05-20T14:44:17Z siraben: But how does the proof go?
2018-05-20T14:44:27Z siraben: Is a Turing machine "compiled" to lambda calculus
2018-05-20T14:44:43Z longshi: It's not really a proof--that's the interesting part
2018-05-20T14:44:59Z siraben: Have you read Gödel Escher Bach by any chance?
2018-05-20T14:45:00Z longshi: they're `just` equivalent
2018-05-20T14:45:07Z longshi: Unfortunately :<
2018-05-20T14:45:11Z siraben: I'm halfway through, incredible book
2018-05-20T14:45:12Z longshi: But i've heard about it
2018-05-20T14:45:16Z longshi: and i plan to
2018-05-20T14:45:18Z longshi: :)
2018-05-20T14:45:35Z siraben: I find it quite easy to read, despite having to learn propositional calculus
2018-05-20T14:46:03Z siraben: The dialogues between chapters are witty as well.
2018-05-20T14:46:34Z longshi: siraben: thanks for the recommendation, i'll get to it during summertime! :)
2018-05-20T14:46:49Z siraben: It all centers around this idea of: how can something with meaning (say, human beings) be made of meaningless elements?
2018-05-20T14:47:07Z siraben: It also talks about Gödel's Incompleteness Theorem, a good explanation of it as well.
2018-05-20T14:47:41Z siraben: And this idea of meaning: is it in the way we interpret the message/object or is it an inherent property of it?
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2018-05-20T14:48:26Z siraben: I like the paragraph on alternate universes; you can imagine a universe with different laws of physics, but can you imagine a universe without lambda calculus, without modus ponens?
2018-05-20T14:48:48Z TCZ: O.o
2018-05-20T14:48:59Z siraben: Exactly.
2018-05-20T14:49:20Z siraben: TCZ: We're talking about Gödel Escher Bach
2018-05-20T14:49:29Z TCZ: i can i know nothing about lambda calculus etc
2018-05-20T14:49:36Z TCZ: so i live in this universe
2018-05-20T14:49:47Z longshi: well, yeah, stuff philosophers will never stop arguing about
2018-05-20T14:49:49Z siraben: Haha, but lambda calculus exists in this universe
2018-05-20T14:50:07Z TCZ: i saw those videos "math is invented or discovered"
2018-05-20T14:50:08Z TCZ: etc
2018-05-20T14:50:17Z siraben: I still can't make up my mind about that
2018-05-20T14:50:35Z siraben: It's like saying "did calculus exist in the time of the Greeks"
2018-05-20T14:50:41Z longshi: must universe be logical; are mathematical objects platonic ideals…
2018-05-20T14:50:55Z longshi: If you're interested in such stuff
2018-05-20T14:51:12Z longshi: Imre Lakatos is your guy
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2018-05-20T14:51:44Z longshi: I really enjoyed going through "Proofs and refutations" while still in school
2018-05-20T14:51:45Z siraben: The universe is a type of computer.
2018-05-20T14:52:12Z TCZ: programers like to think like that...
2018-05-20T14:52:14Z longshi: https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/lakatos/#LakaBigIdea
2018-05-20T14:52:31Z siraben: We are in the current state of a 13.7 billion year running program
2018-05-20T14:52:40Z longshi: yeah, i think this too often since i started coding
2018-05-20T14:52:59Z siraben: Well it has to be a quantum computer since there's uncertainty everywhere
2018-05-20T14:53:17Z TCZ: its kinda motivating that you are doing something big etc
2018-05-20T14:53:26Z TCZ: and you are not some stupid enginer
2018-05-20T14:53:26Z TCZ: xd
2018-05-20T14:53:28Z TCZ: ok
2018-05-20T14:53:28Z siraben: Anyone using Scheme in space?
2018-05-20T14:53:42Z TCZ: idk
2018-05-20T14:53:46Z TCZ: someone used forth
2018-05-20T14:53:53Z siraben: I read somewhere that NASA used Common Lisp and debugged a problem on a spacecraft because it had a REPL running.
2018-05-20T14:54:07Z TCZ: oh yes i read about that too
2018-05-20T14:54:11Z TCZ: sry i have to go now
2018-05-20T14:54:13Z TCZ: bye :*
2018-05-20T14:54:16Z TCZ:  <3
2018-05-20T14:54:25Z TCZ quit (Quit: Leaving)
2018-05-20T14:54:25Z siraben: Bye
2018-05-20T14:54:58Z siraben: http://flownet.com/gat/jpl-lisp.html
2018-05-20T14:55:01Z siraben: Search "Common Lisp"
2018-05-20T14:55:05Z IstiCusi quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2018-05-20T14:55:18Z longshi: btw
2018-05-20T14:55:22Z longshi: obligatory xkcd https://xkcd.com/224/
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2018-05-20T14:55:35Z siraben: YESSS
2018-05-20T14:55:56Z siraben: Lisp is basically a glorified implementation of the lambda calculus
2018-05-20T14:56:09Z siraben: Or a mere mirage of it, depending on your view.
2018-05-20T14:56:37Z siraben: longshi: I think philosophers would be interested in the metacircular evaluator
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2018-05-20T14:59:36Z jcowan_: weinholt: Your name got into R7RS because basically everyone who commented is mentioned, even if their comments were negative.
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2018-05-20T14:59:58Z siraben: jcowan_: What do you mean "got into R7RS"?
2018-05-20T15:00:05Z siraben: It's in the spec?
2018-05-20T15:00:47Z wasamasa: it's in the acknowledgements section
2018-05-20T15:01:04Z siraben: Any plans for R8RS?
2018-05-20T15:01:09Z wasamasa: lol
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2018-05-20T15:01:11Z weinholt: jcowan_, ah, ok. i'm sure you're right, although i don't remember writing any comments, positive or negative :)
2018-05-20T15:01:20Z wasamasa: finish r7rs-large first
2018-05-20T15:01:26Z siraben: lol
2018-05-20T15:01:31Z siraben: Why is Scheme becoming so big
2018-05-20T15:01:39Z siraben: R5RS was 50 pages
2018-05-20T15:02:16Z jcowan: R7RS is 88 pages, not really that much bigger
2018-05-20T15:02:22Z jcowan: R7RS-small, that is
2018-05-20T15:02:37Z jcowan: R7RS-large will be very large indeed, but highly modular
2018-05-20T15:02:46Z siraben: What's the adversion to R6RS and R7RS then?
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2018-05-20T15:03:01Z siraben: R5RS is touted as the "last good Scheme" or something to that effect.
2018-05-20T15:03:07Z jcowan shrugs
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2018-05-20T15:03:40Z jcowan: V7 (1979) was touted as the "last good Unix".
2018-05-20T15:03:58Z siraben: How does one implement monads in Scheme?
2018-05-20T15:04:01Z jcowan_ quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
2018-05-20T15:04:08Z jcowan: And it's a perfectly reasonable OS for the PDP-11 in your basement.
2018-05-20T15:04:15Z siraben: I don't know Haskell, and want to know what all the fuss is about monads.
2018-05-20T15:04:38Z amz3: maybe some vocal people call r5rs the "last good scheme", the real answer is which scheme is used nowdays, that translate to racket, guile and chez and all of them support r6rs
2018-05-20T15:04:42Z siraben: jcowan: Poof. PDP-10 was the last good mainframe.
2018-05-20T15:05:05Z jcowan: By IBM standards the -10 was an overgrown mini.
2018-05-20T15:05:09Z siraben: Any resources on delimited and undelimited continuations in scheme?
2018-05-20T15:05:23Z jcowan: Every Scheme supports undelimited continuations (i.e. call/cc)
2018-05-20T15:05:36Z siraben: What are they, exactly?
2018-05-20T15:05:52Z jcowan: It is possible to inefficiently implement delimited continuations on top of it
2018-05-20T15:06:24Z siraben: I mean what are delimited continuations as opposed to undelimited?
2018-05-20T15:06:44Z jcowan: Ah.  Delimited continuations don't capture the *whole* of the continuation, only up to a certain point.
2018-05-20T15:06:57Z amz3: I think the difference, is that delimited continuation allow you to jump back to some point in the call stack, where as undelimited continuation have not this limitation
2018-05-20T15:07:14Z longshi: siraben: well, sure but that's pretty hard stuff, the stuff near the end of SICP.
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2018-05-20T15:07:16Z jcowan: In that way they can be called and will return, unlike a call/cc escape procedure which never returns to the point it is invoked.
2018-05-20T15:07:23Z siraben: In what case may this be useful?  Can't I just write my functions in continuation passing style?
2018-05-20T15:07:33Z siraben: longshi: SICP doesn't go into CPS unforunately
2018-05-20T15:07:40Z jcowan: Delimited continuations, like ordinary procedures, are composable.
2018-05-20T15:07:48Z longshi: we'll see; i'll report when i'll be getting closer to my first scheme workshops :)
2018-05-20T15:08:01Z siraben: Anyone implement monads in Scheme?
2018-05-20T15:08:18Z qu1j0t3:    siraben | I don't know Haskell, and want to know what all the fuss is about monads.  // Just read Wadler's paper, "Monads for Functional programming". It includes motivating examples.
2018-05-20T15:08:18Z longshi: i was talking about metacircular evaluator :)
2018-05-20T15:08:19Z jcowan: An undelimited continuation is a delimited continuation that is delimited by the start of the program.
2018-05-20T15:08:25Z amz3: siraben: If you search for "scheme monads" you will find something
2018-05-20T15:08:56Z siraben: amz3: Right. Oleg's blog post.
2018-05-20T15:09:00Z siraben: qu1j0t3: I see.
2018-05-20T15:09:03Z weinholt: siraben, https://github.com/jhidding/r6rs-monads
2018-05-20T15:09:09Z jcowan: A monad is a container that lets you manipulate the thing inside the container without letting it escape from the container.
2018-05-20T15:09:34Z qu1j0t3: except, container is a terrible metaphor.
2018-05-20T15:09:53Z qu1j0t3: so don't do the metaphorical stuff, just go read Wadler.
2018-05-20T15:10:08Z jcowan: A simple case is a list of 0 or 1 elements, where you can transform the element if there is one (returning another list) but if there is no element, you get the empty list back.
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2018-05-20T15:10:35Z amz3: that's an example of the 'maybe' monad
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2018-05-20T15:10:59Z amz3: that nice way of handling errors
2018-05-20T15:11:47Z siraben: Ah yes, I've always wondered how evaluators can magically go back in time in the backtrace
2018-05-20T15:12:12Z amz3: ?
2018-05-20T15:12:19Z amz3: call/cc doesn't go back in time afaik
2018-05-20T15:12:24Z siraben: Reading Wadler
2018-05-20T15:12:36Z amz3: oh you changed subject, sorry for the noise
2018-05-20T15:12:52Z siraben: Ah no worries
2018-05-20T15:13:03Z jcowan: amz3: Indeed
2018-05-20T15:14:06Z jcowan: siraben: In a variety of ways.  Most Schemes copy the stack on call/cc, thus preserving the continuation very literally.  Chicken takes a different approach that makes call/cc cheap but all other procedure calls somewhat more expensive than they would be otherwise.
2018-05-20T15:14:55Z siraben: jcowan: I see.
2018-05-20T15:15:04Z siraben: So after finishing SICP, what do I do next with Scheme?
2018-05-20T15:15:35Z jcowan: Play with it.  Get comfortable with Scheme's way of doing things.  Try different stuff.  Ask questions.  Explore.  Enjoy.
2018-05-20T15:15:48Z amz3: siraben: well, play with it, is a good answer
2018-05-20T15:15:58Z siraben: Still struggling a bit with the non-deterministic and logic programming evaluator, it's very interesting though.
2018-05-20T15:16:04Z longshi: I haven't really finished SICP, but i'd say you cannot err by reading and writing code in it
2018-05-20T15:16:50Z amz3: fwiw, to give you an idea, at this very moment I am coding yet another static blog generator :]
2018-05-20T15:16:53Z siraben: SICP doesn't really use modern Scheme features like vectors and even Quasiquote (until later), but otherwise it great.
2018-05-20T15:17:02Z siraben: it's*
2018-05-20T15:17:12Z siraben: amz3: Ah.
2018-05-20T15:17:16Z amz3: with a new s-expr syntax that looks like skribillo
2018-05-20T15:17:32Z siraben: Scheme on the web, is that a thing?
2018-05-20T15:17:34Z jcowan: Vectors are a performance hack; you give up some of the generality of lists to make them work much faster.
2018-05-20T15:17:51Z amz3: siraben: yes, not very exciting, but it use parser combinators to read a special s-exp syntax and a custom made stream library
2018-05-20T15:18:04Z amz3: siraben: yes, why not?
2018-05-20T15:18:14Z siraben: Is there an implementation of a type checker or theorem prover in Scheme?  Those would be interesting programs to read.
2018-05-20T15:18:50Z siraben: amz3: There's Biwascheme and https://github.com/google/schism as far as I know
2018-05-20T15:18:58Z jcowan: http://recycledknowledge.blogspot.com/2011/11/john-mccarthy-inventor-of-lisp-died.html <-- McCarthy's 1958 theorem prover, trivially translated into Scheme
2018-05-20T15:19:27Z siraben: O.O it's in the Lisp 1.5 manual?
2018-05-20T15:19:40Z amz3: siraben: here is a biwascheme app of classic webdev app: https://amirouche.github.io/scheme-todomvc/
2018-05-20T15:19:41Z siraben: Wow
2018-05-20T15:21:16Z jcowan: Chicken and Racket have various web development tools; probably other Schemes do too.
2018-05-20T15:21:27Z siraben: amz3: Wow that's great
2018-05-20T15:21:53Z amz3: siraben: tx, that particular incantation is inspired from elm
2018-05-20T15:22:04Z amz3: siraben: are you famililar with elm?
2018-05-20T15:22:18Z amz3: at least somewhat
2018-05-20T15:22:26Z amz3: if you are not into webdev it's unlikely..
2018-05-20T15:22:52Z siraben: amz3: I've heard about it
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2018-05-20T15:23:06Z siraben: Looks like Haskell.
2018-05-20T15:23:15Z amz3: it use a continuation passing style to avoid side effects in user procedures
2018-05-20T15:23:15Z siraben: I'm going to study it more this summer when I have more time
2018-05-20T15:23:22Z amz3: and the gui is declared
2018-05-20T15:23:30Z amz3: I mean, everything is pure
2018-05-20T15:23:36Z siraben: Oh wow
2018-05-20T15:23:43Z siraben: amz3: Elm?
2018-05-20T15:24:03Z jcowan: You can think of vectors as being made of pairs whose cars are mutable and whose cdrs are immutable.
2018-05-20T15:24:04Z amz3: siraben: yes, if you are not against types and haskell syntax it's said to be nice for webdev
2018-05-20T15:24:18Z amz3: frontend side at least
2018-05-20T15:24:33Z siraben: amz3: Anything for minimizing failures at runtime.
2018-05-20T15:25:20Z amz3: siraben: I was said, there is no such thing as a runtime failure in elm, if you can go past the terse non-lisp syntax..
2018-05-20T15:25:53Z amz3: siraben: for instance, they market elm as fully avoiding the 'undefined' errors from javascript
2018-05-20T15:26:05Z amz3: siraben: that being said, I find it very complicated to work with JSON in elm
2018-05-20T15:26:05Z jcowan: except when your computer is on fire
2018-05-20T15:26:09Z amz3: ^^
2018-05-20T15:26:17Z siraben: jcowan: It's amazing that I can read a program from 1958 with such ease.
2018-05-20T15:26:33Z amz3: siraben: and since, half of it is dealing with json documents you end up with very complicated types
2018-05-20T15:26:54Z siraben: amz3: Javascript is a painful, painful language, I have not mastered anything in it, that's why I was interested in Biwascheme and Elm
2018-05-20T15:27:24Z amz3: siraben: well, read the code of scheme-todomvc, it's very short
2018-05-20T15:27:27Z jcowan: Isn't it?  Lisp just keeps on going: changes that would make programs in other languages useless can be patched up with additional procedures and macros.
2018-05-20T15:28:23Z siraben: Reading Scheme code has always felt /right/.
2018-05-20T15:28:31Z amz3: siraben: here is the 'core' of the thing, the thing that makes everything else 'work' https://github.com/amirouche/scheme-todomvc/blob/94e16ae72e560f62e4634e98e10ca73440f7a094/main.scm#L139-L154
2018-05-20T15:28:32Z jcowan grins.
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2018-05-20T15:29:24Z amz3: I am still amazed by this dozen of lines, it's the code that I the most proud of
2018-05-20T15:29:28Z siraben: amz3: I like how that procedure contains the only two instances of set! in the entire code
2018-05-20T15:29:43Z siraben: amz3: You wrote this?
2018-05-20T15:30:29Z amz3: yes
2018-05-20T15:30:41Z amz3: the naming is not perfect
2018-05-20T15:30:44Z siraben: amz3: Wow that's amazing
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2018-05-20T15:31:04Z siraben: amz3: Your code is very intuitive, reads easily.
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2018-05-20T15:31:37Z siraben: amz3: Why didn't you use quasiquote/unquote here?  https://github.com/amirouche/scheme-todomvc/blob/94e16ae72e560f62e4634e98e10ca73440f7a094/main.scm#L117
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2018-05-20T15:31:50Z siraben: The (cons (cons ...))
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2018-05-20T15:33:47Z amz3: siraben: i am not happy with that part of the code. It's because I find 'cons' more readable in that place. Anyway, this 'sxml' stuff is very nasty, and needs improvement
2018-05-20T15:34:41Z siraben: Brings joy to my heart to see all the lisp operators
2018-05-20T15:34:49Z siraben: In such a clean syntax
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2018-05-20T15:36:16Z siraben: amz3: is this HTML in an s-exp tree? https://github.com/amirouche/scheme-todomvc/blob/94e16ae72e560f62e4634e98e10ca73440f7a094/main.scm#L240
2018-05-20T15:36:26Z amz3: siraben: well, that part of the code will translate '(tag (@ (key1 value1) (key2 value2))) into what is expected by the underlying javascript code... which is a JSObject, I used cons to make it clear that it builds a alist, but now that I think about it I must use acons instead
2018-05-20T15:37:10Z amz3: siraben: yes
2018-05-20T15:37:35Z amz3: as you might have guess, 'on-foo' attributes are event handlers
2018-05-20T15:37:45Z siraben: amz3: Could macros be used to make it cleaner?
2018-05-20T15:37:52Z amz3: like on-keypress
2018-05-20T15:38:10Z amz3: how?
2018-05-20T15:38:17Z amz3: I don't know
2018-05-20T15:38:39Z siraben: https://github.com/amirouche/scheme-todomvc/blob/94e16ae72e560f62e4634e98e10ca73440f7a094/main.scm#L256
2018-05-20T15:39:05Z siraben: Seems like a good place to create an alist which spits out this part of the code
2018-05-20T15:39:17Z amz3: oh
2018-05-20T15:39:25Z amz3: you mean the thing inside the '@' part?
2018-05-20T15:39:42Z siraben: The (li ...)
2018-05-20T15:39:52Z amz3: idk
2018-05-20T15:39:56Z siraben: You have the fields href, class, on-click repeated
2018-05-20T15:40:09Z amz3: that whole procedure is somekind of template
2018-05-20T15:40:23Z amz3: ah yes, you can use a procedure or macro for each items in the list
2018-05-20T15:40:35Z siraben: Maybe it's just me, I don't write GUI code
2018-05-20T15:40:47Z siraben: An area that I need to read more on
2018-05-20T15:40:55Z siraben: s/GUI/UI
2018-05-20T15:41:17Z amz3: "li" means "list item"
2018-05-20T15:41:31Z siraben: amz3: Does Biwascheme support local storage?
2018-05-20T15:41:42Z siraben: An option to download my todos would be good
2018-05-20T15:41:55Z amz3: siraben: well, it support whatever you want in terms of javascript, the problem is scheme support and TCO
2018-05-20T15:42:08Z siraben: amz3: So how are the todos stored?
2018-05-20T15:42:51Z jcowan: amz3: I'm designing a pair of libraries that use the SXML representation of JSON objects
2018-05-20T15:43:05Z jcowan: one for JSON and JS objects generally, and one for microXML.
2018-05-20T15:43:48Z amz3: siraben: it's stored in the 'state', look at https://github.com/amirouche/scheme-todomvc/blob/94e16ae72e560f62e4634e98e10ca73440f7a094/main.scm#L211, it's where the "Enter" event is handled, the code is not very nice
2018-05-20T15:44:06Z amz3: jcowan: where is it?
2018-05-20T15:44:49Z amz3: siraben: todos  are stored as alist
2018-05-20T15:44:53Z amz3: siraben: in memory
2018-05-20T15:45:10Z siraben: amz3: I wrote a little thing in Biwascheme https://siraben.github.io/brownies/ , can't compete obviously, but if you view source you see that I tried to treat the graphical buttons as lambdas (or in SICP speak, objects). So I only need to worry about the make-new-purchase procedure and the changes propagate
2018-05-20T15:45:29Z jcowan: amz3: No code yet, but designs are available at
2018-05-20T15:45:52Z siraben: amz3: It's like cookie clicker, I suppose
2018-05-20T15:46:49Z siraben: On the biwascheme website it links to this game: http://lambda.bugyo.tk/cdr/hockey/ which I thought is pretty cool
2018-05-20T15:46:56Z jcowan: https://bitbucket.org/cowan/r7rs-wg1-infra/src/default/JsoCowan.md and https://bitbucket.org/cowan/r7rs-wg1-infra/src/default/MicroXmlCowan.md
2018-05-20T15:46:57Z siraben: Creating a game in Scheme
2018-05-20T15:47:15Z jcowan: still subject to change, of course
2018-05-20T15:47:23Z siraben: amz3: what makes you deem it not nice code?
2018-05-20T15:47:35Z siraben: amz3: in your state
2018-05-20T15:47:39Z amz3: jcowan: I will read it and let you know what I think
2018-05-20T15:48:07Z jcowan: Excellent!  You can send comments to cowan@ccil.org if I'm not in IRC.
2018-05-20T15:48:18Z siraben: If a lot of Scheme code gets written, we might need a Node.js equivalent!
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2018-05-20T15:48:28Z amz3: siraben: the code that actually add a todo to the state, is interwinded with some "ui". Otherwise said, business code is mixed with gui code
2018-05-20T15:48:43Z amz3: jcowan: i will do
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2018-05-20T15:49:43Z jcowan: note that uXML is a standardized subset of XML.  The parser will do a slight superset of uXML (allows colons in names and allows PIs, but attaches no special semantics to them)
2018-05-20T15:49:51Z siraben: amz3: What are some other interesting things written in Biwascheme?
2018-05-20T15:51:39Z jcowan: The parser is already written, but it's in Java, so I have to translate it
2018-05-20T15:51:53Z jcowan: the JSON parser is not written yet, but JSON is easy to parse
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2018-05-20T15:54:39Z amz3: siraben: I don't manipulate html strings in my project, I use snabbdom to deal with the html https://github.com/snabbdom/snabbdom/
2018-05-20T15:55:15Z amz3: siraben: not sure, I have another project, that looks like a clicker game with space exploration twist
2018-05-20T15:56:12Z amz3: for some reason the code was offline, I pushed it to github, wait a minute for it to be availabe as github page
2018-05-20T15:57:55Z amz3: nevermind, the code is rusty and doesn't work as expected, I need to fix a few things
2018-05-20T16:00:09Z siraben: amz3: I read that Typescript is another good language to deal with web
2018-05-20T16:00:16Z siraben: I need to go sleep now, good night everyone!
2018-05-20T16:04:38Z amz3: siraben: here is the clicker game https://amirouche.github.io/space-exploration/
2018-05-20T16:04:42Z amz3: siraben: night
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2018-05-20T16:12:40Z qu1j0t3: ehh siraben so-so. PureScript would be a better one to look at imho
2018-05-20T16:12:55Z qu1j0t3 uses TypeScript, it's better than raw JS, but....
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2018-05-20T16:13:38Z qu1j0t3: siraben: PureScript comes with a nice book. https://leanpub.com/purescript/read
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2018-05-20T17:50:44Z gwatt: amz3, longshi: about porting fibers to chez, you may wish to start looking at engines
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2018-05-20T18:00:27Z amz3: gwatt: engines?
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2018-05-20T18:02:15Z gwatt: http://cisco.github.io/ChezScheme/csug9.5/control.html#./control:h4
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2018-05-20T20:27:44Z longshi: https://github.com/darius/awklisp holy shit
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2018-05-20T20:31:21Z wasamasa: obligatory reminder about https://github.com/kanaka/mal
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2018-05-20T20:34:03Z Ober: mal shows how fast pypy is
2018-05-20T20:34:06Z Ober: b
2018-05-20T20:34:45Z wasamasa: my fastest implementation so far is in picolisp :>
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2018-05-20T20:48:05Z leotaku: Hey #scheme, what scheme repls for the terminal (Linux) would you reccomend?
2018-05-20T20:49:40Z leotaku: I would just use the mitscheme repl, but it does not (for me at least) correctly support moving with arrow keys.
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2018-05-20T20:50:58Z ecraven: remix2000[m]: backend, I'm playing around with a static site generator, but nothing finished yet
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2018-05-20T21:20:40Z daviid: leotaku: for info, guile scheme has a terminal readline 'capable' repl, which needs to also install guile-readline
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2018-05-20T21:35:26Z gwatt: leotaku: chez scheme has the best repl interaction I've seen.
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2018-05-20T21:37:06Z daviid: worth mentioning that most of us use emacs and geiser (which supports a few scheme implementation, but not 'all' :))
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2018-05-20T21:38:06Z longshi: definitely chez scheme
2018-05-20T21:38:39Z longshi: it works out of the box, is really fast and sophisticated and contains really nice editing capabilities
2018-05-20T21:39:05Z longshi: guile is alright too, but only after you paste a snippet included in man page into .guile file
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2018-05-20T21:39:15Z longshi: it supports readline after that
2018-05-20T21:39:50Z daviid: longshi: and users have to intall guile-readline (not part of guile due to licenses ...)
2018-05-20T21:40:07Z longshi: but i only learned about it like a month ago and so the chez habit (and s=scheme zshrc alias) were formed
2018-05-20T21:40:07Z wasamasa: just use rlwrap
2018-05-20T21:40:13Z longshi: yeah, true
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2018-05-20T21:40:26Z longshi: mine guile was included with manjaro
2018-05-20T21:40:38Z longshi: i haven't had it before, on ubuntu box
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2018-05-20T21:41:06Z longshi: and on manjaro, it ships with a folder full of goodies
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2018-05-20T21:45:43Z gwatt: daviid: what system are you using. I don't have a "guile-readline" as a package, it's just included in the default
2018-05-20T21:46:29Z daviid: gwatt: that is probably because your distro included it, but guile source and trball does not include it
2018-05-20T21:46:57Z gwatt: hmm, maybe. slackware normally doesn't modify upstream stuff
2018-05-20T21:47:11Z daviid: maybe for sure :)
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2018-05-20T21:52:05Z gwatt: daviid: nope, it's definitely in the tarball
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2018-05-20T22:00:09Z longshi: and readline is a GNU project https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GNU_Readline
2018-05-20T22:00:19Z longshi: so it makes sense it's included per default
2018-05-20T22:00:58Z longshi: but nonetheless, it doesn't work out of the box; you got to import it in a dotfile
2018-05-20T22:02:26Z daviid: ok ... a few guile users recently calimed that (ice-9 readline) was not ... then I suggeted to install guile-readline ... anyway, I use emacs/geiser
2018-05-20T22:02:30Z longshi: …and chez's expeditor is imho much nicer
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2018-05-20T22:03:03Z longshi: well if you use emacs/geiser then why worry? ;>
2018-05-20T22:06:49Z longshi: you've got everything you need
2018-05-20T22:07:20Z daviid: yep :), I was just trying to help, someone asked for scheme readline capable, i know guile has a module ...
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2018-05-20T22:34:47Z longshi shows thumbs-up
2018-05-20T22:34:51Z longshi: sure man :)
2018-05-20T22:34:58Z longshi: cheers
2018-05-20T22:35:21Z leotaku: Thanks, chez works really well! Am I fine using something like chez (or even racket maybe) for sicp? Or should I rather use the "original" mitscheme?
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2018-05-20T22:36:06Z longshi: you can go ahead with chez for the first chapters
2018-05-20T22:36:14Z longshi: but have a look at this repo…
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2018-05-20T22:36:50Z longshi: https://github.com/zv/SICP-guile
2018-05-20T22:37:15Z longshi: it's a helpful study companion, in chez and some racket
2018-05-20T22:37:23Z longshi: *in guile and some racket
2018-05-20T22:39:25Z longshi: (and for the whole book too, of course, it's a really good scheme system; i've been using mixture of the two, chez and scheme)
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2018-05-20T22:42:13Z leotaku: thanks again
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2018-05-20T22:53:26Z longshi: no problem man! report back, tell us what you think about all this :)
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2018-05-20T23:06:40Z siraben`: amz3: Of course it has to be written using Scheme!
2018-05-20T23:08:21Z siraben`: qu1j0t3: What if it doesn't matter in the end, since we have compilers to Javascript and WebAssembly, we can just write code in Scheme, or even C or rust
2018-05-20T23:10:52Z qu1j0t3: ...or PureScript.
2018-05-20T23:11:40Z qu1j0t3: (i'm recommending purescript because it has much to recommend it as a language, beyond "not javascript" :)
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2018-05-20T23:19:02Z siraben`: qu1j0t3: What about Elm?
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2018-05-20T23:29:27Z qu1j0t3: i haven't used it. its typesystem lacks some things i prefer to have.
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2018-05-21T04:26:53Z marusich: Suppose I have two strings a and b, and I want to know if they are equivalent, where equivalent means they're the same length, and they contain the same characters in the same order. In this situation, do string=? and equal? always behave the same?
2018-05-21T04:27:06Z marusich: Apart from perhaps revealing the expectation that two variables are strings, I am not sure why I would ever want to use string=? instead of equal? in that case.
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2018-05-21T04:39:23Z jcowan_: marusich: Yes, they will behave the same.
2018-05-21T04:46:15Z Zipheir`: marusich: You may want an error if a string procedure is passed arguments of other types. Polymorphism is a two-edged sword.
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2018-05-21T04:57:43Z marusich: Oh, I didn't realize string=? complains if the arguments are not strings.  That's handy.
2018-05-21T04:57:48Z marusich: So, that's one good reason to use it.
2018-05-21T04:58:00Z marusich: Although, I am amused that it returns #t in Guile if you invoke it as (string=? 1)
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2018-05-21T05:06:02Z Zipheir`: That seems broken...
2018-05-21T05:12:02Z Zipheir`: rudybot: eval (string=? 1)
2018-05-21T05:12:02Z rudybot: Zipheir`: error: string=?: arity mismatch; <NEWLINE>  the expected number of arguments does not match the given number <NEWLINE>   expected: at least 2 <NEWLINE>   given: 1 <NEWLINE>   arguments...: <NEWLINE>    1
2018-05-21T05:13:01Z Zipheir`: All's right in the world.
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2018-05-21T05:16:15Z marusich: Guile behaves differently than that.
2018-05-21T05:16:46Z marusich: In Guile, (string=? 1) evaluates to #t.  Version 2.2.3.  Maybe it's a bug.
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2018-05-21T05:18:40Z Zipheir`: I hope so, because that's bogus.
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2018-05-21T05:21:49Z daviid: all guile comparison procedures return #t if given zero or 1 argument, not just string=? ... not sure why but that's how it is indeed
2018-05-21T05:21:58Z Zipheir`: It seems Guile returns #t for all unary comparisons
2018-05-21T05:22:12Z Zipheir`: Ah, thanks daviid.
2018-05-21T05:23:17Z Zipheir`: Which seems like a poor decision, for several reasons.
2018-05-21T05:24:33Z daviid: actually not all
2018-05-21T05:25:26Z Zipheir`: Sorry, I meant all the string predicates. Typing too quickly.
2018-05-21T05:25:32Z daviid: it must be a very old decision though :)
2018-05-21T05:25:57Z daviid: should ask guile' maintainer I guess
2018-05-21T05:27:16Z Zipheir`: I suppose you deserve what you get if you're sloppy with arity, but I can imagine some incredibly annoying debugging situations because someone wrote (eq? foo).
2018-05-21T05:28:35Z Zipheir`: But yes, it must be a really old choice, so there may be method to their madness.
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2018-05-21T14:55:19Z __Myst__: Hi, I'm making a toy Scheme implementation and I've hit a road-block.
2018-05-21T14:55:54Z __Myst__: Am I meant to have a separate type for lambdas? I can't think of how to implement it any other way but it kinda feels wrong to have one.
2018-05-21T14:56:06Z __Myst__: Thank you in advance to anyone who responds. :)
2018-05-21T14:56:34Z jcowan: Yes, or rather a separate type for procedures.
2018-05-21T14:56:54Z __Myst__: Is there any good resource on implementing a scheme?
2018-05-21T15:01:17Z jcowan: What implementation language are you using?
2018-05-21T15:03:10Z __Myst__: Rust
2018-05-21T15:03:37Z foof``: siraben`: there's an environment monad in the (srfi 159) reference implementation
2018-05-21T15:03:48Z jcowan: I would look at the source to Plan 9 from User Space, assuming you can read C
2018-05-21T15:03:50Z __Myst__: I know C, C++, Python 3, Haskell, ... though; So resources in those languages are fine as well if there's no good one.
2018-05-21T15:04:05Z jcowan: it's written for clarity
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2018-05-21T15:06:15Z X-Scale: __Myst__: https://9p.io/sources/plan9/sys/src/
2018-05-21T15:06:51Z jcowan: note that you will need a GC: there are a few for Rust
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2018-05-21T15:20:03Z foof``: I use Scheme at work.
2018-05-21T15:20:30Z foof``: (re: remix2000[m])
2018-05-21T15:21:48Z remix2000[m]: foof``: What do you use it for?
2018-05-21T15:28:04Z siraben`: foof``: I see.  I'll look more into monads when I learn Haskell and see how it can help Scheme programming
2018-05-21T15:29:55Z foof``: statistics and a nicer interface around in in-house query language (this gets some use from others in the company)
2018-05-21T15:30:02Z foof``: also some personal tools
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2018-05-21T15:39:01Z jcowan: __Myst__: s/Plan 9/Scheme 9/
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2018-05-21T15:43:42Z Zipheir`: siraben`: Check out Kiselyov's article on Scheme monads, it's awesome. http://okmij.org/ftp/Scheme/monad-in-Scheme.html
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2018-05-21T16:02:25Z donalsd: The procedure #[compiled-procedure 13 ("list" #x5) #x14 #x1f071cc] has been called with 2 arguments; it requires exactly 1 argument. - I thought list can have multiple arguments?
2018-05-21T16:02:46Z donalsd: Am I missing something?
2018-05-21T16:03:45Z Zipheir`: What's the expression?
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2018-05-21T16:05:10Z mejja: donalsd,  Try: (pp #@13)
2018-05-21T16:05:42Z donalsd: mejja: pp?
2018-05-21T16:05:52Z Zipheir`: pretty-print
2018-05-21T16:06:48Z donalsd: I haven't written the word list in my entire program
2018-05-21T16:07:15Z mejja: "list" in this case is the source file..
2018-05-21T16:09:32Z Zipheir`: donalsd: Well, it's clearly been redefined by something.
2018-05-21T16:11:15Z donalsd: I guess I missed an paren on an if condition
2018-05-21T16:11:43Z donalsd: (cond ((null? (car seq) '()) <-- this somehow caused it
2018-05-21T16:12:10Z jcowan: I have sent SRFI 160 to srfi-editors
2018-05-21T16:12:27Z jcowan: homogeneous vector libraries
2018-05-21T16:12:54Z jcowan: it extends SRFI 4 with bit vectors, complex vectors, and analogs to the SRFI 133 (pretty much SRFI 43) vector procedures
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2018-05-21T16:28:12Z Zipheir`: jcowan: Nice!
2018-05-21T16:28:31Z jcowan: No code yet, but I will basically be doing bricolage for this one
2018-05-21T16:28:54Z jcowan: the implementation depends on (rnrs bytevectors), but on non-R6RS systems I'll be using Larceny's portable implementation
2018-05-21T16:29:09Z jcowan: if an implementation has its own SRFI 4, it will leverage that
2018-05-21T16:29:33Z jcowan: and most of the SRFI 133 stuff just *is* SRFI 133 code with search-and-replace
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2018-05-21T16:42:15Z akkad: ahh
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2018-05-21T18:23:27Z Zipheir`: jcowan: This came up last night and I'm curious to know your opinion. Is it bogus for Guile to return #t as the value of (string=? 1)?
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2018-05-21T18:26:20Z jcowan: It's in the implementation-defined scope of string=?, so officially I have no opinion
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2018-05-21T18:26:28Z jcowan: I think it's kind of sloppy not to check the type
2018-05-21T18:27:13Z jcowan: otoh it's probably meant to support a use case like (apply string<? list-of-strings), where you want it to report #t on one or zero strings
2018-05-21T18:27:19Z jcowan: and they did it cheap and dirty
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2018-05-21T18:28:29Z Zipheir`: jcowan: Right, that makes sense.
2018-05-21T18:29:58Z jcowan: apply might blow up on some systems if there are too many strings, though
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2018-05-21T18:33:47Z jcowan: a better function would be:
2018-05-21T18:34:14Z jcowan:  (define (totally-ordered? pred list)
2018-05-21T18:34:14Z jcowan:   (cond
2018-05-21T18:34:15Z jcowan:     ((eqv? list '()) #t)
2018-05-21T18:34:15Z jcowan:     ((eqv? (cdr list) '()) #t)
2018-05-21T18:34:15Z jcowan:     (else (and (pred (car list) (cadr list)) (total-order pred (cdr list))))))
2018-05-21T18:34:23Z jcowan: s/total-order/totally-ordered?
2018-05-21T18:34:52Z jcowan: that has the same bug as Guile, because it does not know the type(s) that pred accepts
2018-05-21T18:37:13Z Zipheir`: Right, apply magic always seems a bit hacky.
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2018-05-21T18:39:09Z Zipheir`: Also, (apply string<? '(#f)) is #t in Guile, which is less than beautiful.
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2018-05-21T18:41:35Z Zipheir`: And where one might expect a function called 'totally-ordered?' to be type indifferent, 'string-foo' comparisons really seem like they should provide some type-checking...
2018-05-21T18:42:34Z Zipheir`: (Even in the degenerate unary case, if you're not making that an error)
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2018-05-21T19:48:24Z leotaku: Small question: (How) can I reset/clean the environment of an chez-scheme repl?
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2018-05-21T19:57:20Z wasamasa: reboot
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2018-05-21T19:59:30Z akkad: yeah lisp systems are not able to unfsck by unload/reload :[
2018-05-21T19:59:31Z gwatt: leotaku: yeah, just exit and restart
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2018-05-21T20:05:12Z leotaku: Ok, thanks for the info
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2018-05-21T20:22:02Z akkad: why compilation and uberjars are much more deterministic than long running images. :P
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2018-05-21T20:26:11Z Zipheir`: uberjars??
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2018-05-21T20:42:11Z qu1j0t3: a program packaged with all its dependencies.
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2018-05-21T20:53:24Z Zipheir`: Ah, thanks.
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2018-05-22T14:58:30Z amz31: I think I will add datalog to my database and put than in a srfi
2018-05-22T14:58:39Z amz31: I mean i will create a srfi for the whole thing
2018-05-22T14:58:58Z amz31: I am wondering how this will be received by the srfi commitee
2018-05-22T14:59:09Z amz31: more seriously, is there a srfi for web servers?
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2018-05-22T15:29:55Z jcowan: amz31: No, there isn't, but there's no reason why there couldn't be.
2018-05-22T15:30:58Z jcowan: You need to read https://srfi.schemers.org/srfi-process.html ; it pretty much tells it all except that it doesn't mention tests, which are now a requirement.
2018-05-22T15:31:25Z amz31: tx!
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2018-05-22T22:33:41Z akkad: is a set membership lookup O(log(n))? or O(n)?
2018-05-22T22:36:35Z Riastradh: What kind of set, and what kind of lookup?
2018-05-22T22:38:51Z akkad: is item in set.
2018-05-22T22:39:08Z akkad: had not thought of there being more than one way to access it.
2018-05-22T22:39:40Z qu1j0t3: definitely.
2018-05-22T22:39:46Z Riastradh: In particular, what is the set of sets you're interested in, what is the data structure you have in mind that is capable of representing those sets, and what is the algorithm you have in mind for lookup?
2018-05-22T22:39:47Z akkad: memq I guess.
2018-05-22T22:39:54Z Riastradh: memq is O(n).
2018-05-22T22:40:25Z akkad: ok thanks
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2018-05-22T23:40:36Z jcowan_: akkad: SRFI 113 sets are O(n)
2018-05-22T23:40:47Z jcowan_: sorry, O(1)
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2018-05-23T00:15:25Z akkad: oh nice. thanks. trying to drop down from hashes for space
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2018-05-23T00:50:15Z jcowan_: akkad: Well, SRFI 113 sets are hashes under the covers.  Can't have it both ways.
2018-05-23T00:50:50Z jcowan_: A set implementation similar to SRFI 113 based on trees will be forthcoming soon.
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2018-05-23T05:21:58Z ecraven: akkad: what kind of items do you put in your set? any scheme object, or only certain ones
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2018-05-23T05:34:08Z akkad: mixed strings/symbols/numbers
2018-05-23T05:34:47Z ecraven: I don't know of any specialised hash for that combination
2018-05-23T05:35:22Z akkad: strings is fine
2018-05-23T05:36:36Z ecraven: I'd just use a hash, you should be able to set it to increase size non-aggressively
2018-05-23T05:37:54Z ecraven: you could use an alist and memq, but that's definitely slower for just about any amount of items
2018-05-23T05:38:21Z ecraven: or even just a plain list and find
2018-05-23T05:42:00Z akkad: yeah using hash now,
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2018-05-23T09:41:30Z ventonegro: Hmmm... Can I use macros in `case` branches?
2018-05-23T09:41:58Z ventonegro: I mean inside the datum list, of course
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2018-05-23T10:11:50Z gwatt: ventonegro: no
2018-05-23T10:12:34Z ventonegro: :(
2018-05-23T10:12:38Z gwatt: You have to write a macro that expands to case
2018-05-23T10:12:51Z ventonegro: gwatt: I see, thanks!
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2018-05-23T17:04:26Z Zipheir`: What is everyone's favorite convention for naming a 'prime' variable? e.g. foo_, foo`, etc.
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2018-05-23T17:11:02Z oleo: prime ?
2018-05-23T17:11:06Z oleo: what does that mean ?
2018-05-23T17:11:17Z oleo: foo-prime
2018-05-23T17:11:21Z oleo: probably
2018-05-23T17:13:20Z Zipheir`: The Haskell convention is generally x, x', x'', for example.
2018-05-23T17:13:51Z Zipheir`: It's totally a bikeshed question. I'm just curious.
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2018-05-23T17:19:57Z jcowan: Zipheir`: Traditionally it has been foo, foo*, foo**
2018-05-23T17:20:03Z jcowan: which is how let* got its name
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2018-05-23T17:28:18Z Zipheir`: jcowan: Very interesting, I didn't know that.
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2018-05-23T17:30:11Z aeth: definitely foo*
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2018-05-23T17:48:39Z gwatt: what is a "prime" variable?
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2018-05-23T17:50:58Z qu1j0t3: an alternative version, it's a convention from math
2018-05-23T17:51:22Z gwatt: ah
2018-05-23T17:51:24Z cmaloney feels rather mundane for using "foo bar baz"
2018-05-23T17:51:34Z qu1j0t3: gwatt: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prime_(symbol)#Use_in_mathematics,_statistics,_and_science
2018-05-23T17:52:00Z qu1j0t3: gwatt: "to distinguish similar things"
2018-05-23T17:52:09Z gwatt: qu1j0t3: thanks
2018-05-23T17:52:10Z qu1j0t3: LET/LET* is certainly a good example
2018-05-23T17:52:29Z gwatt: I've also seen "foo^" pronounced foo-hat
2018-05-23T17:53:42Z jcowan: *Real* mathematicians don't say "foo prime prime" or "foo double prime."  They say "foo second".
2018-05-23T17:54:11Z jcowan: cmaloney: Thing is, bar is fundamentally different from foo, whereas foo' is meant to be closely related to foo
2018-05-23T17:54:11Z qu1j0t3: jcowan: so why not foo minute
2018-05-23T17:54:25Z jcowan: different use of "secundus"
2018-05-23T17:54:55Z qu1j0t3: jcowan: ah yes, silly me :-)
2018-05-23T17:55:00Z qu1j0t3: jcowan: it was staring me in the face!
2018-05-23T17:55:51Z jcowan: I was pretty startled when I looked into a Latin Bible and saw that the New Testament began with "Secundus Matthaeus"
2018-05-23T17:56:06Z jcowan: not meaning "Second Matthew" but rather "following Matthew, according to Matthew"
2018-05-23T17:56:50Z qu1j0t3: haha
2018-05-23T17:57:27Z jcowan: the English used to do ordinals like this:  "first, other, third, fourth ..."
2018-05-23T17:57:28Z qu1j0t3: yes, this is where latin languages help. seguir to follow. segunda
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2018-05-23T17:57:39Z qu1j0t3: segunda, "day after sunday," presumably (also 2nd)
2018-05-23T17:57:44Z jcowan: then they abandoned "other" and adopted "second" from French (ultimately Latin)
2018-05-23T17:58:18Z jcowan: but Latin had originally counted "primus, alter, tertius", but abandoned "alter" (other) in favor of "secundus"
2018-05-23T17:58:33Z jcowan: a strange coincidence
2018-05-23T17:59:21Z aeth: real mathematicians don't use foo'. they use dfoo/dx or dfoo/dt
2018-05-23T17:59:29Z jcowan: True
2018-05-23T18:00:35Z jcowan: "For example, if a point is represented by the Cartesian coordinates (x, y), then that point rotated, translated or reflected might be represented as (x′, y′). "
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2018-05-23T18:01:12Z jcowan: also set complement, matrix transpose
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2018-05-23T18:02:58Z qu1j0t3: yes.
2018-05-23T18:03:04Z qu1j0t3: aeth: isn't that just one meaning of prime
2018-05-23T18:03:49Z aeth: qu1j0t3: that's the joke
2018-05-23T18:03:52Z qu1j0t3: oh
2018-05-23T18:05:25Z jcowan: Common Lisp also has list*, do*, and prog*
2018-05-23T18:05:31Z jcowan: do* is to do as let* is to let
2018-05-23T18:05:58Z aeth: imagine using the variables foo, dfoo/dx, and d^2foo/dx^2 instead of foo, bar, and baz
2018-05-23T18:06:17Z aeth: Now imagine using a programming language where you *can* actually do that.
2018-05-23T18:07:04Z jcowan: and similarly with prog*, but list* is different: it conses the non-last arguments onto the last argument.
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2018-05-23T18:07:44Z jcowan: the danger would be in supposing that when you change foo, foo*2 is changed as well.
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2018-05-23T18:13:25Z aeth: You could actually do that if you're running it in a framework, though.
2018-05-23T18:14:14Z ecraven: jcowan: it's secundum matthaeus, not secundus
2018-05-23T18:14:26Z jcowan: yes, sorry
2018-05-23T18:14:37Z ecraven: no problem, but that cannot mean "second matthew"
2018-05-23T18:16:52Z aeth: hmmm
2018-05-23T18:17:13Z aeth: I should have looked it up in my Latin NT instead of trusting what jcowan said
2018-05-23T18:17:17Z aeth: I collect Latin books
2018-05-23T18:18:07Z jcowan: And I should have looked it up online before spreading errors
2018-05-23T18:18:27Z jcowan: The gender mismatch, yes.
2018-05-23T18:18:32Z aeth: Secundum Matthaeum, you're both wrong
2018-05-23T18:20:20Z aeth: But in Wikipedia's (well, Wikisource's) Vulgate, it's just "Matthaeus"
2018-05-23T18:25:41Z amz3: o/
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2018-05-23T21:36:32Z ecraven: kata matthaion :D
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2018-05-24T09:30:44Z ecraven: does anyone know of a Scheme that would run on something like a Teensy?
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2018-05-24T10:19:03Z lloda: is there a way to use a generic predicate with srfi-64? I see (define-syntax test-eqv (lambda (x) (%test-comp2 (syntax eqv?) x))) in the source but that isn't exported
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2018-05-24T10:28:21Z edgar-rft: ecraven, there's armpit scheme for arm microcontrollers. The homepage says it runs on arm cortex-4m, the teensy cpu. But I've never tried it, so don't ask me details <https://sourceforge.net/projects/armpit/>
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2018-05-24T10:35:46Z ecraven: edgar-rft: thanks
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2018-05-24T11:00:17Z ecraven: does r7rs say whether it would be legal to extend `define' to be (define name thing documentation-string)?
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2018-05-24T11:32:40Z ecraven: does the srfi-14 reference implementation not work for full unicode, but only for latin-1?
2018-05-24T11:32:47Z ecraven: it has comments to that effect at the top :-/
2018-05-24T11:33:08Z ecraven: Scheme could really use a larger string library :-/
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2018-05-24T12:43:21Z daviid: ecraven: fyi, srfi-14 is 'always available' in guile, and in guile, chars representations are following the r6rs advice, and uses the unicode std ... not sure what you're looking for but ... voilà :)
2018-05-24T12:44:24Z ecraven: daviid: the reference implementation allocates only enough room for 256 codepoints, so anything > 256 will raise an index out of bounds error
2018-05-24T12:44:34Z ecraven: guile has probably solved this by not using the reference implementation ;)
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2018-05-26T08:01:39Z siraben: Is the book Essentials of Programming Languages a good place to continue after SICP?
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2018-05-26T09:58:43Z siraben: How is Essentials of Programming Languages as a book to learn more about Scheme?
2018-05-26T09:58:53Z siraben: Not Scheme exactly, but languages in general
2018-05-26T09:59:01Z siraben: *it just uses Scheme
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2018-05-26T17:07:52Z amz3: how is #scheme?
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2018-05-26T17:10:25Z edgar-rft: al dente
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2018-05-26T17:21:15Z qu1j0t3: haha
2018-05-26T17:22:41Z amz3: ^^
2018-05-26T17:31:39Z longshi: it's a pretty good day today
2018-05-26T17:31:45Z longshi: calm, lazy saturday
2018-05-26T17:31:54Z longshi: thanks for asking :)
2018-05-26T17:32:01Z longshi: how is amz3 doing?
2018-05-26T17:35:23Z amz3: not very well, I am tired apart by my work and my desire to do more scheme
2018-05-26T17:37:23Z amz3: otherwise it's nice, sunny and peaceful day :)
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2018-05-26T17:39:26Z amz3: otherwise, it's a nice, sunny and peaceful day :)
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2018-05-26T20:39:47Z Guest59202: mhm i guess ive understood correctly that lisp in general is pretty big thing in japan stil
2018-05-26T20:39:52Z Guest59202: still*
2018-05-26T20:40:19Z Guest59202: man wtf is up wth my nick
2018-05-26T20:40:30Z wasamasa: what makes you say that?
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2018-05-26T20:43:03Z karahobny: excuse me
2018-05-26T20:43:23Z karahobny: but yeah what ive seen of gauche and r/lisp_ja
2018-05-26T20:44:09Z daviid: if you have a registered nick, you may regain it
2018-05-26T20:44:38Z karahobny: of course guy steeles history of lisp has a bit about specifically first lisp-to-c compiler coming from japan
2018-05-26T20:45:07Z karahobny: yeah i know i just forgot how i set this all up
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2018-05-26T20:45:37Z karahobny: this whole nickname reg thing was very elaborate and all
2018-05-26T20:46:26Z karahobny: i mean i wish we had a strong finnish community of schemers or clispers in general
2018-05-26T20:46:37Z karahobny: hell id even take clojure
2018-05-26T20:46:44Z wasamasa: fun, r/lisp_ja is more active than r/lisp
2018-05-26T20:46:54Z karahobny: ecactly
2018-05-26T20:47:18Z wasamasa: as for other implementations by japanese people, sagittarius and chibi-scheme
2018-05-26T20:47:25Z wasamasa: CL should have a bunch as well
2018-05-26T20:47:41Z karahobny: oh i thought chibi was just a name
2018-05-26T20:48:03Z karahobny: i mean i know what it means in japanese
2018-05-26T20:48:11Z wasamasa: if you're japanese, you're allowed to name your scheme chibi
2018-05-26T20:48:27Z karahobny: but didnt figure there was a japanese person behind it
2018-05-26T20:48:39Z karahobny: haha yeah
2018-05-26T20:49:11Z karahobny: my scheme implementation's name is tandoori
2018-05-26T20:49:33Z karahobny: the whole joke on srfi-26? (cut/cute)
2018-05-26T20:49:41Z karahobny: aka currying
2018-05-26T20:50:26Z karahobny: actually partial evaluation though
2018-05-26T20:51:56Z karahobny: but i figured to build a pretty haskell-y / SML-y scheme even though it really doesnt do anything like currying
2018-05-26T20:52:05Z karahobny: built on top of guile atm
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2018-05-26T21:30:39Z aeth: The other non-US country that seems like it has a large Lisp community is France.
2018-05-26T21:31:13Z aeth: France even has its own Lisp. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Le_Lisp
2018-05-26T21:31:49Z aeth: (So Lisp is a masculine noun, apparently.)
2018-05-26T21:37:35Z pjb: Yes.
2018-05-26T21:37:53Z pjb: Like «un langage».
2018-05-26T21:38:06Z aeth: It should have been called Les Lisps so we'd never know its gender.
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2018-05-26T21:38:33Z pjb: Languages are masculine in French.
2018-05-26T21:38:48Z aeth: Even Ada?
2018-05-26T21:38:50Z pjb: There are countries of both sexes.
2018-05-26T21:38:58Z pjb: Yes, le langage Ada.
2018-05-26T21:39:14Z aeth: Ah, that actually makes sense.
2018-05-26T21:39:49Z pjb: Ada est beau. Ada est belle.  Le premier est un langage, la seconde une femme ! :-)
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2018-05-26T21:41:07Z aeth: Oui. Je comprends. Merci.
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2018-05-26T21:51:08Z Kooda: Is there really a large Lisp community in France? Is everyone hidden in research labs? :Þ
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2018-05-26T21:58:25Z pjb: Not officially. But it looks like there are quite a few lispers in France.
2018-05-26T22:00:07Z pjb: To really know, you'd have first to declare a database to the CNIL, then fill it with data, and select count(*) from lispers where country='fr';
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2018-05-26T22:03:26Z Kooda: Ahaha
2018-05-26T22:04:10Z Kooda: I’m french and would love to meet some fellow lispers. :)
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2018-05-26T22:09:10Z pjb: Kooda: there are meetups: ("Paris Clojure User Group" "(Paris (Emacs) Meetup)" "Functional Programmers Paris" "Emacs Pour Tous A Paris").
2018-05-26T22:09:38Z pjb: Kooda: perhaps you would want to create a new Lisp meetup in Paris? or in your own town?
2018-05-26T22:09:51Z pjb: https://www.meetup.com/fr-FR
2018-05-26T22:10:12Z Kooda: Ugh, everyone in Paris…
2018-05-26T22:10:46Z pjb: Actually, there's a concentration of lispers in Bordeaux too.
2018-05-26T22:11:08Z pjb: And probably elsewhere, but lispers keep it a secret. :-)
2018-05-26T22:11:11Z Kooda: Interesting
2018-05-26T22:11:13Z Kooda: Ahaha
2018-05-26T22:11:22Z Kooda: Secret cultist meetings
2018-05-26T22:11:56Z pjb: But in every enterprise I worked, there were people who knew lisp, either known as cryptolispers, or having studied at least scheme in the university.
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2018-05-26T22:13:29Z Kooda: I don’t find anything near my city, except a group about functionnal programming, but it seems very corporation-oriented.
2018-05-26T22:13:56Z pjb: Where do you live?
2018-05-26T22:14:15Z Kooda: Rennes :)
2018-05-26T22:14:57Z pjb: I know at least one lisper in Nantes.
2018-05-26T22:16:14Z pjb: Kooda: https://hal.inria.fr/INRIA-RRRT/inria-00074886
2018-05-26T22:16:30Z pjb: 1992. Perhaps they're already retired…
2018-05-26T22:16:35Z aeth: Bordeaux is where they manufacture the Common Lisp threads.
2018-05-26T22:16:49Z Kooda: Yeah, looks quite old.
2018-05-26T22:16:51Z pjb: and the fast lisp FFT.
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2018-05-26T22:51:11Z atchoum: hi !
2018-05-26T22:52:44Z oleo: lol
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2018-05-26T22:56:45Z atchoum: what is the most asked question from beginners ?
2018-05-26T22:56:49Z atchoum: mmh
2018-05-26T22:57:02Z atchoum: I think I 'll try to just write a new scheme and come back later
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2018-05-26T23:31:45Z pierpa: the most asked question from beginners is "anyone here?"
2018-05-26T23:32:28Z Kooda: “can I ask something?” :Þ
2018-05-26T23:33:31Z pierpa: one of those two, yes
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2018-05-26T23:34:50Z atchoum: mmh i'm coming on the recommandation of sicp
2018-05-26T23:35:46Z atchoum: basically what's interesting is the fact that probably scheme and sicp has influenced a lot of programming languages.
2018-05-26T23:35:55Z atchoum: except maybe php
2018-05-26T23:36:07Z pierpa doubts it
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2018-05-26T23:39:14Z atchoum: is lisp a scheme ? If not, why would it be a superset of scheme-like languages ?
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2018-05-26T23:41:28Z Kooda: Since the original Lisp is older than Scheme, it’s the other way around.
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2018-05-26T23:41:49Z atchoum: but scheme is the only survivor, isn't it ?
2018-05-26T23:42:18Z Kooda: Far from that! https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lisp_(programming_language)#Timeline
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2018-05-26T23:46:20Z atchoum: mmh wondering which channel I must be in. #lisp or #scheme ?
2018-05-26T23:46:26Z atchoum: #lisp seems to have more users.
2018-05-26T23:47:57Z Kooda: From what I understand, #lisp is mostly about Common Lisp. #scheme is of course mostly about Scheme. :)
2018-05-26T23:48:06Z Kooda: It depends on which you want to use and talk about.
2018-05-26T23:48:09Z atchoum: assuming that all that languages must have a reasonably minimalist design, it must be easy to learn them all. Don't you think ?
2018-05-26T23:48:19Z atchoum: s/that/these
2018-05-26T23:49:43Z atchoum: so the common pattern is : infix notation and parenthetized expressions ?
2018-05-26T23:49:45Z atchoum: :)
2018-05-26T23:50:00Z Kooda: I don’t understand what you mean, or want to know.
2018-05-26T23:50:02Z atchoum: I mean that's enough to say « this is a lisp » or « this is a scheme » ?
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2018-05-26T23:50:39Z atchoum: not infix rather prefix
2018-05-26T23:50:53Z atchoum: no postfix
2018-05-26T23:51:00Z Kooda: Well, it depends. A Scheme has a pretty strict definition, since it’s based on a standard.
2018-05-26T23:51:18Z Kooda: The word “Lisp” has no such strict definition
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2018-05-26T23:54:24Z atchoum: are functions first class in scheme ?
2018-05-26T23:54:32Z longshi: yeah, you have various scheme implementations, clojure, clojurescript, common lisp implementations, lisp flavoured erlang, hy…
2018-05-26T23:54:38Z atchoum: I tried to write a compose function but failed utterly
2018-05-26T23:54:38Z longshi: atchoum: yes
2018-05-26T23:55:37Z atchoum: is there really practical use of such dialects or are they just tool for hobbyist or one-programmer projects ?
2018-05-26T23:55:56Z atchoum: community seems pretty active around
2018-05-26T23:56:06Z longshi: now that's a hard question
2018-05-26T23:56:21Z longshi: disclosure: i'm a relative scheme newbie
2018-05-26T23:57:06Z longshi: but i'd say that all of the best-supported dialects bring something interesting to the party
2018-05-26T23:57:30Z longshi: racket, guile, chez, chibi, gambit…
2018-05-26T23:57:42Z longshi: they all seem to have their use-case
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2018-05-27T00:26:45Z pierpa: channel ##lisp is for any dialect of lisp
2018-05-27T00:27:08Z pierpa: good for generic talk about any kind of lisp
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2018-05-27T00:33:57Z Zipheir`: pierpa: Cool, didn't know about that channel.
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2018-05-27T00:40:58Z pierpa: ;)
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2018-05-27T01:39:40Z aeth: If it's for generic talk, then Scheme probably isn't talked about much there.
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2018-05-27T01:51:50Z pierpa: you could talk there if there's not a more specific group for your dialect, or for making comparisons between dialects, anything in parentheses go, I guess
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2018-05-27T02:10:50Z aeth: It's a joke about generic functions
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2018-05-27T13:42:54Z amz3: let's get going with a scheme screencast :)
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2018-05-27T14:21:43Z Zipheir`: *schemecast
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2018-05-27T14:35:40Z amz3: i call it scheme musing
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2018-05-27T16:05:36Z gwatt: nah, call it a "live scheme"
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2018-05-27T16:24:42Z edgar-rft: important scheme video: <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y9rJZX72oIw>
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2018-05-27T16:43:44Z Zipheir`: edgar-rft: You're so clever o_O
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2018-05-27T16:48:15Z edgar-rft: Zipheir`: I'm a competence center
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2018-05-27T17:40:52Z longshi: :D
2018-05-27T17:41:01Z longshi: edgar-rft: i loled, thanks
2018-05-27T17:50:16Z deuill: Anyone know of any Scheme/Lisp meetups around London? The only one I can find that's active on Meetups.com is the Emacs one and an SICP study group.
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2018-05-27T18:01:28Z longshi: i'll join in: does anyone know any meetups/something in Poland?
2018-05-27T18:01:33Z longshi: Warsaw preferred
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2018-05-28T01:32:02Z Manei: Hello
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2018-05-28T20:59:26Z X-Scale: eval (max 0 1 2)
2018-05-28T20:59:33Z X-Scale: rudybot: eval (max 0 1 2)
2018-05-28T20:59:33Z rudybot: X-Scale: ; Value: 2
2018-05-28T20:59:38Z X-Scale: rudybot: eval (max 0 1)
2018-05-28T20:59:38Z rudybot: X-Scale: ; Value: 1
2018-05-28T20:59:41Z X-Scale: rudybot: eval (max 0)
2018-05-28T20:59:42Z rudybot: X-Scale: ; Value: 0
2018-05-28T20:59:45Z X-Scale: rudybot: eval (max)
2018-05-28T20:59:45Z rudybot: X-Scale: error: max: arity mismatch; <NEWLINE>  the expected number of arguments does not match the given number <NEWLINE>   expected: at least 1 <NEWLINE>   given: 0
2018-05-28T21:00:03Z X-Scale: shouldn't (max) give some external representation of minus infinity ?
2018-05-28T21:01:11Z cmaloney: i'm not seeing anything strange there
2018-05-28T21:01:25Z cmaloney: it gives the max of one or more items
2018-05-28T21:01:44Z cmaloney: no list should be an error
2018-05-28T21:03:56Z X-Scale: considering that max(-infinity, a, b, c, ...) = max(-infinity, a, b, c, ...) for whatever finite values of a,b,c...it seems that -infinity plays the role of a neutral element of max function, if we consider the reals.
2018-05-28T21:06:05Z X-Scale: I mean, max(-infinity, a, b, c, ...) = max(a, b, c, ...)
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2018-05-28T21:37:16Z X-Scale: rudybot: eval (= 1 1)
2018-05-28T21:37:17Z rudybot: X-Scale: ; Value: #t
2018-05-28T21:37:19Z X-Scale: rudybot: eval (= 1)
2018-05-28T21:37:19Z rudybot: X-Scale: error: =: arity mismatch; <NEWLINE>  the expected number of arguments does not match the given number <NEWLINE>   expected: at least 2 <NEWLINE>   given: 1 <NEWLINE>   arguments...: <NEWLINE>    1
2018-05-28T21:37:24Z X-Scale: rudybot: eval (=)
2018-05-28T21:37:24Z rudybot: X-Scale: error: =: arity mismatch; <NEWLINE>  the expected number of arguments does not match the given number <NEWLINE>   expected: at least 2 <NEWLINE>   given: 0
2018-05-28T21:37:52Z X-Scale: curious that mit-scheme evals both (= 1) and (=) to #t
2018-05-28T21:38:19Z aeth: (= 1) should be true.
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2018-05-28T21:39:06Z aeth: (=) sort of makes sense if viewed in the same way as (+) returning 0 or (*) returning 1, I guess.
2018-05-28T21:39:55Z wasamasa: in r5rs, = is listed to have the arguments z1, z2 and z3 ...
2018-05-28T21:40:03Z wasamasa: suggesting it should receive two arguments or more
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2018-05-28T21:40:19Z wasamasa: whereas + is listed with + z1 ...
2018-05-28T21:41:08Z aeth: (= 1) being invalid for some Schemes is not a good idea. You could be applying = to an arbitrary number of numbers
2018-05-28T21:41:20Z aeth: Now you've just added a special case to that
2018-05-28T21:41:39Z wasamasa: I can't remember the last time I used = for more than two args
2018-05-28T21:42:47Z qu1j0t3: even so, aeth 's reasoning is good, and also applies to AND, OR, and other operators
2018-05-28T21:42:55Z X-Scale: I found it useful while checking n-ary operations for commutativity, associativity and distributivity
2018-05-28T21:43:45Z aeth: wasamasa: I guess you'd do it if you were defining a foo-equals? that took an arbitrary number of foos in the naivest way and just wanted all parts of the foo to be tested by various equalities depending on the type
2018-05-28T21:43:51Z X-Scale: from R5RS: "These procedures return #t if their arguments are (respectively): equal, monotonically increasing, monotonically decreasing, monotonically nondecreasing, or monotonically nonincreasing."
2018-05-28T21:44:25Z X-Scale: an empty list of arguments is equal, monotonically increasing, monotonically decreasing, monotonically nondecreasing, and monotonically nonincreasing
2018-05-28T21:44:41Z wasamasa: that sentence doesn't say anything about the number of args
2018-05-28T21:46:22Z aeth: wasamasa: I guess it really depends on if you want your Scheme to define predicates for length 1, which will be #t by default unless they're a type error (like (= some-non-number-object))
2018-05-28T21:47:00Z aeth: CL does this, which probably influenced some Schemes to do the same.
2018-05-28T21:47:22Z aeth: 0-length is probably too controversial to define, though. Should it be #t or #f?
2018-05-28T21:49:04Z aeth: What makes a Lisp unique is that they *can* think of such questions, which is how you get (+ 1) and (+) making perfect sense.
2018-05-28T21:55:26Z X-Scale: if equal(a,b)=true then you can go on and test equal(a,b,c). You also need equal(a)=true to be able to go on and test equal(a,b). So, you need equal()=true to be able to argue that equal(a)=true. You need any subset of your set to be true under equality, and the empty set is the subset of all sets.
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2018-05-28T21:58:45Z aeth: Yes, (=) being #t makes sense from a rigorous standpoint
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2018-05-28T21:59:06Z aeth: But (=) not returning #t could make sense from a practical standpoint in a practical use of =
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2018-05-28T22:04:45Z jcowan: X-Scale: Your reasoning is fine for most operators, but for max and min, most Schemes don't have a representation of exact infinity.
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2018-05-28T22:08:11Z X-Scale: jcowan: I can undestand that limitation.
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2018-05-30T00:05:00Z rudybot: la la la
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2018-05-30T00:19:31Z jcowan_: rudybot: So you say.
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2018-05-30T00:19:38Z rudybot: jcowan_: that said, if you do: echo ^[[?1049h ; in xterm, you get the glimps at that time. So we could say that it's a xterm bug.
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2018-05-30T23:03:48Z longshi: Okay, so think i'm ready to start getting into srfis. Any pointers? Do I just start going through the abstracts and code one by one, or are there helpful texts or sth?
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2018-05-31T12:34:27Z jcowan: longshi: It doesn't make much sense to plow through the SRFIs in order, though SRFI 1 is not a bad place to start (nearly universal, part of R7RS-large).
2018-05-31T12:35:13Z jcowan: Rather, go to srfi.schemers.org and skim through the descriptions looking for something interesting. You can use the checkbox to turn on abstracts if you want more detail.
2018-05-31T12:36:03Z longshi: jcowan: thanks! I started doing just that--also, mailing list records are cool, good thing it's preserved and available
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2018-05-31T19:51:44Z Zipheir: If al is ((a 1) (b 2))) and I evaluate (let ((p (car al))) (set-car! p 'z), al will not be mutated unless I'm using SRFI-17's generalized set!
2018-05-31T19:51:47Z Zipheir: Is that correct?
2018-05-31T19:53:09Z wasamasa: doubtful
2018-05-31T19:53:19Z wasamasa: generalized set! is about using set on something else than an identifier
2018-05-31T19:53:57Z wasamasa: (set! (car p) 'z) would be equivalent to (set-car! p 'z)
2018-05-31T19:54:17Z Zipheir: But let binds fresh locations.
2018-05-31T19:54:25Z wasamasa: so?
2018-05-31T19:54:33Z wasamasa: you're mutating the car of a list
2018-05-31T19:54:38Z wasamasa: it doesn't matter how it was introduced
2018-05-31T19:54:49Z wasamasa: set! on an identifier changes the value bound to an identifier
2018-05-31T19:55:00Z Zipheir: Hmm.
2018-05-31T19:55:12Z wasamasa: in other words, regular set! doesn't mutate, set-car! does
2018-05-31T19:55:32Z wasamasa: (and so does (set! (car ...) ...)
2018-05-31T19:56:57Z wasamasa: rudybot: eval (let* ((al '((a 1) (b 2))) (p (car al))) (set-car! p 'z))
2018-05-31T19:57:08Z rudybot: wasamasa: error: with-limit: out of time
2018-05-31T19:57:10Z wasamasa: hm
2018-05-31T19:57:41Z wasamasa: anyway, (let* ((al '((a 1) (b 2))) (p (car al))) (set-car! p 'z) al) evals to ((z 1) (b 2))
2018-05-31T19:57:53Z Zipheir: OK, maybe I'm confusing set-c[a/d]r! and set!
2018-05-31T19:57:57Z wasamasa: what else would you have expected?
2018-05-31T19:58:04Z wasamasa: yes, they do fundamentally different things
2018-05-31T19:58:21Z wasamasa: I've tried to explain above by categorizing them as rebinding and mutating
2018-05-31T19:58:23Z pjb: Zipheir: this is because generalized set! is the same as set-car! in the case where you use car in set! !
2018-05-31T19:58:28Z pjb: This is what generalized set! is.
2018-05-31T19:58:53Z pjb: This is the reason why it's not in the standard scheme language by default: the language designers don't like to confuse newbies.
2018-05-31T19:59:07Z pjb: (set! (car k) a) == (set-car! k a)
2018-05-31T19:59:27Z pjb: and set-car! mutates the pair k.
2018-05-31T19:59:33Z Zipheir: Right.
2018-05-31T19:59:56Z wasamasa: srfi-17 is a syntactical shortcut for the latter that looks like the former
2018-05-31T20:01:27Z pjb: This is actually a very good point that updating the binding of a variable doesn't mutate anything.  Without generalised set!, set! doesn't mutate any data.
2018-05-31T20:01:33Z Zipheir: But since let binds new locations, doesn't p denote a newly-allocated object in (let ((p (car al))) ...) ?
2018-05-31T20:01:44Z pjb: Zipheir: nope.
2018-05-31T20:01:53Z pjb: p refers to the same object as (car al).
2018-05-31T20:02:10Z pjb: If that object is mutable, you can mutate it, and see the change both thru p and thru (car al).
2018-05-31T20:02:18Z Zipheir: Very interesting
2018-05-31T20:02:28Z wasamasa: no
2018-05-31T20:02:54Z Zipheir: Alright, I guess I need to read the standard again.
2018-05-31T20:02:57Z wasamasa: let introduces new bindings, puts them in an environment, then evals the body in that environment
2018-05-31T20:03:11Z wasamasa: the bindings themselves can refer to other previously established objects
2018-05-31T20:03:41Z pjb: (let* ((p  (make-string 3 #\a)) (q p)) (string-set! p 1 #\b) q) --> "aba"
2018-05-31T20:03:57Z wasamasa: so, p refers to an existing lisp object established at an earlier point
2018-05-31T20:04:17Z wasamasa: if you mutate that object, the object containing it will also be different
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2018-05-31T20:04:53Z pjb: It will contain the same reference. How does that make it different?
2018-05-31T20:05:27Z Zipheir: rudybot: eval (let* ((p  (make-string 3 #\a)) (q p)) (string-set! p 1 #\b) q)
2018-05-31T20:05:29Z rudybot: Zipheir: your sandbox is ready
2018-05-31T20:05:29Z rudybot: Zipheir: ; Value: "aba"
2018-05-31T20:05:36Z wasamasa: al refers to a cons containing more conses, p is one of those conses inside
2018-05-31T20:06:01Z pjb: (let* ((p  (cons (make-string 3 #\a) 'foo)) (a (car p) ) (d (cdr p))  (q p)) (string-set! (car p) 1 #\b)  (list (eq? a (car p)) (eq? d (cdr p)) p q)) --> (#t #t ("aba" . foo) ("aba" . foo))
2018-05-31T20:06:10Z pjb: #t and #t here tell you that p didn't change!
2018-05-31T20:06:47Z pjb: The cons refered to by p is the same, and its car and its cdr didn't change: they still refer to the same mutable string, and the same symbol.  No mutation at all here.
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2018-05-31T20:07:44Z Zipheir: Right
2018-05-31T20:08:15Z wasamasa: you mutate the inner cons, the outer cons displays the changed contents of that cons
2018-05-31T20:08:24Z pjb: this is irrelevant.
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2018-05-31T20:08:32Z pjb: Printing sexps is a recursive process.
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2018-05-31T20:11:20Z Zipheir: So the question that now occurs to me is, what must the "destination" argument of the mutation procedures (set-car!, etc.) be? Clearly it can be an expression, but must this expression "evaluate" to a location?
2018-05-31T20:11:36Z wasamasa: it must be an identifier
2018-05-31T20:12:02Z wasamasa: sorry, no
2018-05-31T20:12:16Z wasamasa: procedure: set-cdr! pair obj
2018-05-31T20:12:27Z wasamasa: it should eval to a cons
2018-05-31T20:12:32Z wasamasa: think of a cons as a pointer
2018-05-31T20:12:55Z Zipheir: Right, R7 says it's just a pair, etc.
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2018-05-31T20:13:06Z Zipheir: So this shouldn't work:
2018-05-31T20:13:07Z wasamasa: it wouldn't make much sense to pass a literal to set-car! because you can't hold on to that pointer and it's gone
2018-05-31T20:13:21Z Zipheir: rudybot: eval (string-set! (make-string 10) 3 #\r)
2018-05-31T20:13:21Z rudybot: Zipheir: Done.
2018-05-31T20:13:24Z wasamasa: for this reason you have it stored somewhere (like, in a let or define) so that you can refer to it a later time
2018-05-31T20:13:30Z Zipheir: Ok.
2018-05-31T20:13:45Z wasamasa: or you can calculate it, like by using car on a list (as long as that returns a cons)
2018-05-31T20:14:10Z Zipheir: Right, that makes perfect sence.
2018-05-31T20:14:12Z Zipheir: *sense
2018-05-31T20:14:51Z Zipheir: It's not an error to pass an expression, but it's pointless.
2018-05-31T20:15:07Z wasamasa: as long as you have that pointer, you can access the car/cdr, mutate them or pass it to a procedure doing things (like, creating a new list the functional way or destructively mutating it)
2018-05-31T20:15:23Z Zipheir: No, sorry, not pointless, if you have another reference.
2018-05-31T20:15:25Z wasamasa: speaking of expressions in a lisp doesn't make sense
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2018-05-31T20:15:40Z wasamasa: everything evals to something, even if it's the unspecified value
2018-05-31T20:16:08Z wasamasa: there are no statements
2018-05-31T20:16:10Z aeth: It's actually kind of strange how Scheme has unspecified at all. In CL, that extra qualification isn't there, and I think that's one of those rare places where CL actually has more Lispy elegance
2018-05-31T20:16:13Z Zipheir: I understand that :)
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2018-05-31T20:16:33Z aeth: Too many Schemes take "unspecified" literally and have something like #<unspecified>
2018-05-31T20:16:40Z Zipheir: wasamasa: What I'm trying to get straight is, which values also denote locations.
2018-05-31T20:16:59Z wasamasa: basically, everything you can mutate
2018-05-31T20:17:05Z Zipheir: wasamasa: But, IIUC, this is only an issue with set! ?
2018-05-31T20:17:10Z aeth: If there's ever an r8rs I'll try to push to remove unspecified.
2018-05-31T20:17:14Z wasamasa: be it a cons, a string, a record, a vector, etc.
2018-05-31T20:18:01Z wasamasa: the thing is that outside of mutation, it doesn't matter
2018-05-31T20:18:14Z Zipheir: Right.
2018-05-31T20:18:18Z wasamasa: your scheme may be using tagged pointers to embed integers in them, you'd only notice by eq? working on them
2018-05-31T20:19:49Z wasamasa: for example, elisp does that, plenty of code relies on eq working on integers
2018-05-31T20:20:51Z aeth: Most Schemes probably have a fixnum vs. bignum distinction like in CL. e.g. (fixnum? 42) => #t ; works in Chicken and Racket, but not Guile
2018-05-31T20:20:54Z Zipheir: I was basically misreading the spec and assuming that, modulo SRFI-17, you could only mutate through a single binding, such that (let ((foo "hello")) (let ((bar foo)) (string-set! bar 0 #\r))) wouldn't do any mutation.
2018-05-31T20:21:06Z wasamasa: nope
2018-05-31T20:21:12Z Zipheir: I understand that now.
2018-05-31T20:21:13Z wasamasa: bar refers to foo refers to a string object
2018-05-31T20:21:18Z Zipheir: Thanks, wasamasa & pjb
2018-05-31T20:21:51Z wasamasa: consider the case of C where you pass by value
2018-05-31T20:22:08Z wasamasa: a pointer passed by value is still the same pointer because a pointer is just a long number
2018-05-31T20:22:38Z wasamasa: so, if you think of bar containing the value of foo, it actually contains a pointer, the same pointer as foo (which points to "hello")
2018-05-31T20:23:32Z Zipheir: Right, I get it. I was getting hung up on let's "new locations"
2018-05-31T20:23:33Z wasamasa: you can use eq? to compare such pointers
2018-05-31T20:23:42Z wasamasa: yup, the binding is new
2018-05-31T20:23:48Z wasamasa: the value is a different story
2018-05-31T20:24:08Z wasamasa: I can recommend implementing a lisp to understand these finer details
2018-05-31T20:25:09Z Zipheir: I'm actually working on a Scheme->C compiler, which is partially why I started trying to understand the semantics here.
2018-05-31T20:25:21Z pjb: Zipheir: you may be interested in Lisp in Small Pieces   http://pagesperso-systeme.lip6.fr/Christian.Queinnec/WWW/LiSP.html  http://pagesperso-systeme.lip6.fr/Christian.Queinnec/Books/LiSP-2ndEdition-2006Dec11.tgz
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2018-05-31T20:25:41Z Zipheir: I find the location "shadow value" of Scheme objects rather trying.
2018-05-31T20:27:07Z Zipheir: pjb: I've been looking for a copy. It's unfortunately quite expensive.
2018-05-31T20:28:39Z nullcone quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity)
2018-05-31T20:29:23Z Zipheir: pjb: But the code in that tarball is a good start. Thanks!
2018-05-31T20:33:20Z gwatt: aeth: guile says (fixnum? 42) is #t. You just have to import rnrs
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