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2018-04-01T12:56:31Z wasamasa: argh, I can reproduce this cyclone issue with latest stable
2018-04-01T12:57:10Z wasamasa: bisecting bootstrapped compilers is a pain
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2018-04-01T13:06:24Z wasamasa: ok, it's somewhere between 0.6.3 and 0.7
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2018-04-01T13:48:59Z wasamasa: hm, I've narrowed it down to string-for-each iterating on an extra char that's not there
2018-04-01T13:51:39Z wasamasa: ouch, printing the string looks normal, converting it to a list gives me one more char
2018-04-01T14:04:22Z wasamasa: ok, figured out a minimal repro
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2018-04-01T14:07:33Z d1buj: ▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄ HAPPY APRIL FLOODS DAY BROUGHT TO YOU BY iяс.sцреяиетs.ояg сни sцреявоwl  jsthdlimi: eMBee ▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄

2018-04-01T14:07:34Z d1buj: ▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄ HAPPY APRIL FLOODS DAY BROUGHT TO YOU BY iяс.sцреяиетs.ояg сни sцреявоwl  vesnr: GGMethos ▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄

2018-04-01T14:07:34Z d1buj: ▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄ HAPPY APRIL FLOODS DAY BROUGHT TO YOU BY iяс.sцреяиетs.ояg сни sцреявоwl  ksbqws: akkad ▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄

2018-04-01T14:07:38Z d1buj: ▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄ HAPPY APRIL FLOODS DAY BROUGHT TO YOU BY iяс.sцреяиетs.ояg сни sцреявоwl  dmozktjkf: Hijiri ▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄

2018-04-01T14:07:38Z d1buj: ▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄ HAPPY APRIL FLOODS DAY BROUGHT TO YOU BY iяс.sцреяиетs.ояg сни sцреявоwl  naujl: tokik ▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄

2018-04-01T14:07:38Z d1buj: ▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄ HAPPY APRIL FLOODS DAY BROUGHT TO YOU BY iяс.sцреяиетs.ояg сни sцреявоwl  vcizsktjh: markx[m] ▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄

2018-04-01T14:07:43Z d1buj: ▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄ HAPPY APRIL FLOODS DAY BROUGHT TO YOU BY iяс.sцреяиетs.ояg сни sцреявоwl  kdjhbdu: jyc ▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄

2018-04-01T14:07:43Z d1buj: ▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄ HAPPY APRIL FLOODS DAY BROUGHT TO YOU BY iяс.sцреяиетs.ояg сни sцреявоwl  fgaxp: Kryo ▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄

2018-04-01T14:07:43Z d1buj: ▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄ HAPPY APRIL FLOODS DAY BROUGHT TO YOU BY iяс.sцреяиетs.ояg сни sцреявоwl  raexmhhjmo: physpi ▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄

2018-04-01T14:07:48Z d1buj: ▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄ HAPPY APRIL FLOODS DAY BROUGHT TO YOU BY iяс.sцреяиетs.ояg сни sцреявоwl  phfqwjv: bheesham ▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄

2018-04-01T14:07:48Z d1buj: ▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄ HAPPY APRIL FLOODS DAY BROUGHT TO YOU BY iяс.sцреяиетs.ояg сни sцреявоwl  pwyux: francesco__ ▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄,
2018-04-01T14:07:48Z d1buj: ▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄ HAPPY APRIL FLOODS DAY BROUGHT TO YOU BY iяс.sцреяиетs.ояg сни sцреявоwl  jizljqzo: M-krsiehl ▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄

2018-04-01T14:07:53Z d1buj: ▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄ HAPPY APRIL FLOODS DAY BROUGHT TO YOU BY iяс.sцреяиетs.ояg сни sцреявоwl  znvlemhyv: stailin ▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄

2018-04-01T14:07:53Z d1buj: ▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄ HAPPY APRIL FLOODS DAY BROUGHT TO YOU BY iяс.sцреяиетs.ояg сни sцреявоwl  qzbaflxwxq: vicenteH ▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄

2018-04-01T14:07:54Z d1buj: ▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄ HAPPY APRIL FLOODS DAY BROUGHT TO YOU BY iяс.sцреяиетs.ояg сни sцреявоwl  gpkcrezl: carc ▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄

2018-04-01T14:07:58Z d1buj: ▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄ HAPPY APRIL FLOODS DAY BROUGHT TO YOU BY iяс.sцреяиетs.ояg сни sцреявоwl  zrisrz: dsp ▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄

2018-04-01T14:07:58Z d1buj: ▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄ HAPPY APRIL FLOODS DAY BROUGHT TO YOU BY iяс.sцреяиетs.ояg сни sцреявоwl  cttuvatqs: cromachina ▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄

2018-04-01T14:07:58Z d1buj: ▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄ HAPPY APRIL FLOODS DAY BROUGHT TO YOU BY iяс.sцреяиетs.ояg сни sцреявоwl  agkcxg: PyroLagus ▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄

2018-04-01T14:08:03Z d1buj: ▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄ HAPPY APRIL FLOODS DAY BROUGHT TO YOU BY iяс.sцреяиетs.ояg сни sцреявоwl  ivlqmvgse: khisanth__ ▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄

2018-04-01T14:08:03Z d1buj: ▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄ HAPPY APRIL FLOODS DAY BROUGHT TO YOU BY iяс.sцреяиетs.ояg сни sцреявоwl  ziynf: davexunit ▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄

2018-04-01T14:08:03Z d1buj: ▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄ HAPPY APRIL FLOODS DAY BROUGHT TO YOU BY iяс.sцреяиетs.ояg сни sцреявоwl  currxeidd: eatonphil ▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄

2018-04-01T14:08:08Z d1buj: ▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄ HAPPY APRIL FLOODS DAY BROUGHT TO YOU BY iяс.sцреяиетs.ояg сни sцреявоwl  rvnvfojz: pierpa ▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄

2018-04-01T14:08:08Z d1buj: ▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄ HAPPY APRIL FLOODS DAY BROUGHT TO YOU BY iяс.sцреяиетs.ояg сни sцреявоwl  iviznykes: cjh` ▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄

2018-04-01T14:08:08Z d1buj: ▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄ HAPPY APRIL FLOODS DAY BROUGHT TO YOU BY iяс.sцреяиетs.ояg сни sцреявоwl  avxkvhmz: rotty ▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄

2018-04-01T14:08:13Z d1buj: ▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄ HAPPY APRIL FLOODS DAY BROUGHT TO YOU BY iяс.sцреяиетs.ояg сни sцреявоwl  vmfqw: n0am ▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄

2018-04-01T14:08:13Z d1buj: ▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄ HAPPY APRIL FLOODS DAY BROUGHT TO YOU BY iяс.sцреяиетs.ояg сни sцреявоwl  zhfsf: sbauman ▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄

2018-04-01T14:08:13Z d1buj: ▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄ HAPPY APRIL FLOODS DAY BROUGHT TO YOU BY iяс.sцреяиетs.ояg сни sцреявоwl  hlmagy: sethalves ▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄
2018-04-01T14:08:18Z d1buj: ▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄ HAPPY APRIL FLOODS DAY BROUGHT TO YOU BY iяс.sцреяиетs.ояg сни sцреявоwl  ilmcyrnh: defanor ▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄

2018-04-01T14:08:18Z d1buj: ▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄ HAPPY APRIL FLOODS DAY BROUGHT TO YOU BY iяс.sцреяиетs.ояg сни sцреявоwl  oersfmkak: ArthurAGleckler[ ▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄

2018-04-01T14:08:18Z d1buj: ▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄ HAPPY APRIL FLOODS DAY BROUGHT TO YOU BY iяс.sцреяиетs.ояg сни sцреявоwl  ikdqcpgc: danly ▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄

2018-04-01T14:08:23Z d1buj: ▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄ HAPPY APRIL FLOODS DAY BROUGHT TO YOU BY iяс.sцреяиетs.ояg сни sцреявоwl  cuwvca: Kryo ▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄

2018-04-01T14:08:24Z d1buj: ▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄ HAPPY APRIL FLOODS DAY BROUGHT TO YOU BY iяс.sцреяиетs.ояg сни sцреявоwl  mlmmgoulv: pie__ ▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄

2018-04-01T14:08:24Z d1buj: ▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄ HAPPY APRIL FLOODS DAY BROUGHT TO YOU BY iяс.sцреяиетs.ояg сни sцреявоwl  otobjwrs: hugo ▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄

2018-04-01T14:08:28Z d1buj: ▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄ HAPPY APRIL FLOODS DAY BROUGHT TO YOU BY iяс.sцреяиетs.ояg сни sцреявоwl  vfqrun: davexunit ▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄

2018-04-01T14:08:28Z d1buj: ▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄ HAPPY APRIL FLOODS DAY BROUGHT TO YOU BY iяс.sцреяиетs.ояg сни sцреявоwl  nburpnz: ELLIOTTCABLE ▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄

2018-04-01T14:08:28Z d1buj: ▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄ HAPPY APRIL FLOODS DAY BROUGHT TO YOU BY iяс.sцреяиетs.ояg сни sцреявоwl  wqeql: kbtr ▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄

2018-04-01T14:08:33Z d1buj: ▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄ HAPPY APRIL FLOODS DAY BROUGHT TO YOU BY iяс.sцреяиетs.ояg сни sцреявоwl  hboyy: gko ▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄

2018-04-01T14:08:33Z d1buj: ▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄ HAPPY APRIL FLOODS DAY BROUGHT TO YOU BY iяс.sцреяиетs.ояg сни sцреявоwl  ycwcxvxik: z0d ▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄

2018-04-01T14:08:33Z d1buj: ▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄ HAPPY APRIL FLOODS DAY BROUGHT TO YOU BY iяс.sцреяиетs.ояg сни sцреявоwl  kasydx: amz3 ▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄

2018-04-01T14:08:38Z d1buj: ▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄ HAPPY APRIL FLOODS DAY BROUGHT TO YOU BY iяс.sцреяиетs.ояg сни sцреявоwl  vvhgdl: oleo ▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄

2018-04-01T14:08:38Z d1buj: ▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄ HAPPY APRIL FLOODS DAY BROUGHT TO YOU BY iяс.sцреяиетs.ояg сни sцреявоwl  rxkruaeu: greghendershott ▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄â
2018-04-01T14:08:38Z d1buj: ▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄ HAPPY APRIL FLOODS DAY BROUGHT TO YOU BY iяс.sцреяиетs.ояg сни sцреявоwl  gjlhh: stux16777216Away ▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄

2018-04-01T14:08:43Z d1buj: ▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄ HAPPY APRIL FLOODS DAY BROUGHT TO YOU BY iяс.sцреяиетs.ояg сни sцреявоwl  upjdich: sbauman ▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄

2018-04-01T14:08:43Z d1buj: ▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄ HAPPY APRIL FLOODS DAY BROUGHT TO YOU BY iяс.sцреяиетs.ояg сни sцреявоwl  udatxrsun: davexunit ▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄

2018-04-01T14:08:43Z d1buj: ▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄ HAPPY APRIL FLOODS DAY BROUGHT TO YOU BY iяс.sцреяиетs.ояg сни sцреявоwl  mwllxyt: profan ▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄

2018-04-01T14:08:48Z d1buj: ▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄ HAPPY APRIL FLOODS DAY BROUGHT TO YOU BY iяс.sцреяиетs.ояg сни sцреявоwl  jqevlllinj: logicmoo ▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄

2018-04-01T14:08:48Z d1buj: ▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄ HAPPY APRIL FLOODS DAY BROUGHT TO YOU BY iяс.sцреяиетs.ояg сни sцреявоwl  eijztmpd: Hijiri ▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄

2018-04-01T14:08:48Z d1buj: ▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄ HAPPY APRIL FLOODS DAY BROUGHT TO YOU BY iяс.sцреяиетs.ояg сни sцреявоwl  fyywojqc: dsp ▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄

2018-04-01T14:08:53Z d1buj: ▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄ HAPPY APRIL FLOODS DAY BROUGHT TO YOU BY iяс.sцреяиетs.ояg сни sцреявоwl  tuhyjqxouv: aeth ▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄

2018-04-01T14:08:54Z d1buj: ▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄ HAPPY APRIL FLOODS DAY BROUGHT TO YOU BY iяс.sцреяиетs.ояg сни sцреявоwl  wznxtlrlo: abbe ▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄

2018-04-01T14:08:54Z d1buj: ▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄ HAPPY APRIL FLOODS DAY BROUGHT TO YOU BY iяс.sцреяиетs.ояg сни sцреявоwl  yrlrn: sethalves ▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄

2018-04-01T14:08:58Z d1buj: ▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄ HAPPY APRIL FLOODS DAY BROUGHT TO YOU BY iяс.sцреяиетs.ояg сни sцреявоwl  wylku: ketralni` ▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄

2018-04-01T14:08:58Z d1buj: ▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄ HAPPY APRIL FLOODS DAY BROUGHT TO YOU BY iяс.sцреяиетs.ояg сни sцреявоwl  jgnziwihks: ineiros ▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄

2018-04-01T14:08:58Z d1buj: ▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄ HAPPY APRIL FLOODS DAY BROUGHT TO YOU BY iяс.sцреяиетs.ояg сни sцреявоwl  ghctrx: ArneBab ▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄

2018-04-01T14:09:03Z d1buj: ▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄ HAPPY APRIL FLOODS DAY BROUGHT TO YOU BY iяс.sцреяиетs.ояg сни sцреявоwl  ydrxlrcg: tokik ▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄

2018-04-01T14:09:03Z d1buj: ▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄ HAPPY APRIL FLOODS DAY BROUGHT TO YOU BY iяс.sцреяиетs.ояg сни sцреявоwl  ezmbskp: ohama ▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄

2018-04-01T14:09:04Z d1buj: ▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄ HAPPY APRIL FLOODS DAY BROUGHT TO YOU BY iяс.sцреяиетs.ояg сни sцреявоwl  gatghzfxvu: defanor ▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄

2018-04-01T14:09:08Z d1buj: ▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄ HAPPY APRIL FLOODS DAY BROUGHT TO YOU BY iяс.sцреяиетs.ояg сни sцреявоwl  todycdsc: snits_ ▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄

2018-04-01T14:09:08Z d1buj: ▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄ HAPPY APRIL FLOODS DAY BROUGHT TO YOU BY iяс.sцреяиетs.ояg сни sцреявоwl  mgyikzotx: catern ▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄

2018-04-01T14:09:08Z d1buj: ▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄ HAPPY APRIL FLOODS DAY BROUGHT TO YOU BY iяс.sцреяиетs.ояg сни sцреявоwl  jpzpiygx: gko ▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄

2018-04-01T14:09:13Z d1buj: ▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄ HAPPY APRIL FLOODS DAY BROUGHT TO YOU BY iяс.sцреяиетs.ояg сни sцреявоwl  fexqu: pyro- ▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄

2018-04-01T14:09:14Z d1buj: ▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄ HAPPY APRIL FLOODS DAY BROUGHT TO YOU BY iяс.sцреяиетs.ояg сни sцреявоwl  yziujopx: terpri ▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄

2018-04-01T14:09:14Z d1buj: ▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄ HAPPY APRIL FLOODS DAY BROUGHT TO YOU BY iяс.sцреяиетs.ояg сни sцреявоwl  gletrqucga: Kooda ▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄

2018-04-01T14:09:18Z d1buj: ▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄ HAPPY APRIL FLOODS DAY BROUGHT TO YOU BY iяс.sцреяиетs.ояg сни sцреявоwl  tzixtvdizt: Kryo ▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄

2018-04-01T14:09:18Z d1buj: ▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄ HAPPY APRIL FLOODS DAY BROUGHT TO YOU BY iяс.sцреяиетs.ояg сни sцреявоwl  kpnxmrzqn: ineiros ▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄

2018-04-01T14:09:19Z d1buj: ▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄ HAPPY APRIL FLOODS DAY BROUGHT TO YOU BY iяс.sцреяиетs.ояg сни sцреявоwl  oahxtq: n0am ▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄

2018-04-01T14:09:23Z d1buj: ▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄ HAPPY APRIL FLOODS DAY BROUGHT TO YOU BY iяс.sцреяиетs.ояg сни sцреявоwl  dqwebxp: ft ▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄

2018-04-01T14:09:24Z d1buj: ▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄ HAPPY APRIL FLOODS DAY BROUGHT TO YOU BY iяс.sцреяиетs.ояg сни sцреявоwl  zcxdgndz: DeeEff ▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄

2018-04-01T14:09:24Z d1buj: ▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄ HAPPY APRIL FLOODS DAY BROUGHT TO YOU BY iяс.sцреяиетs.ояg сни sцреявоwl  pgbrvpea: bheesham ▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄

2018-04-01T14:09:28Z d1buj: ▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄ HAPPY APRIL FLOODS DAY BROUGHT TO YOU BY iяс.sцреяиетs.ояg сни sцреявоwl  ehjhvc: zacts ▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄

2018-04-01T14:09:28Z d1buj: ▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄ HAPPY APRIL FLOODS DAY BROUGHT TO YOU BY iяс.sцреяиетs.ояg сни sцреявоwl  lltpxq: cmaloney ▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄
2018-04-01T14:09:28Z d1buj: ▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄ HAPPY APRIL FLOODS DAY BROUGHT TO YOU BY iяс.sцреяиетs.ояg сни sцреявоwl  toklptpc: pyro- ▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄

2018-04-01T14:09:33Z d1buj: ▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄ HAPPY APRIL FLOODS DAY BROUGHT TO YOU BY iяс.sцреяиетs.ояg сни sцреявоwl  etvnxvikq: jrdnull ▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄

2018-04-01T14:09:33Z d1buj: ▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄ HAPPY APRIL FLOODS DAY BROUGHT TO YOU BY iяс.sцреяиетs.ояg сни sцреявоwl  weysk: `micro ▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄

2018-04-01T14:09:33Z d1buj: ▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄ HAPPY APRIL FLOODS DAY BROUGHT TO YOU BY iяс.sцреяиетs.ояg сни sцреявоwl  rxlnz: micmus ▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄

2018-04-01T14:09:38Z d1buj: ▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄ HAPPY APRIL FLOODS DAY BROUGHT TO YOU BY iяс.sцреяиетs.ояg сни sцреявоwl  otsvs: kbtr ▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄

2018-04-01T14:09:39Z d1buj: ▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄ HAPPY APRIL FLOODS DAY BROUGHT TO YOU BY iяс.sцреяиетs.ояg сни sцреявоwl  ecjnrxhj: M-krsiehl ▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄

2018-04-01T14:09:39Z d1buj: ▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄ HAPPY APRIL FLOODS DAY BROUGHT TO YOU BY iяс.sцреяиетs.ояg сни sцреявоwl  bryyjpsfvk: cemerick_ ▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄

2018-04-01T14:09:43Z d1buj: ▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄ HAPPY APRIL FLOODS DAY BROUGHT TO YOU BY iяс.sцреяиетs.ояg сни sцреявоwl  hkpioofzu: GGMethos ▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄

2018-04-01T14:09:43Z d1buj: ▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄ HAPPY APRIL FLOODS DAY BROUGHT TO YOU BY iяс.sцреяиетs.ояg сни sцреявоwl  zhzcfmms: khisanth__ ▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄

2018-04-01T14:09:43Z d1buj: ▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄ HAPPY APRIL FLOODS DAY BROUGHT TO YOU BY iяс.sцреяиетs.ояg сни sцреявоwl  semdrnaztm: jrdnull ▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄

2018-04-01T14:09:48Z damke joined #scheme
2018-04-01T14:09:48Z d1buj: ▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄ HAPPY APRIL FLOODS DAY BROUGHT TO YOU BY iяс.sцреяиетs.ояg сни sцреявоwl  ykkbof: cjh` ▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄

2018-04-01T14:09:49Z d1buj: ▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄ HAPPY APRIL FLOODS DAY BROUGHT TO YOU BY iяс.sцреяиетs.ояg сни sцреявоwl  inxywvarp: n0am ▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄

2018-04-01T14:09:49Z d1buj: ▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄ HAPPY APRIL FLOODS DAY BROUGHT TO YOU BY iяс.sцреяиетs.ояg сни sцреявоwl  hmltwx: francesco__ ▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄

2018-04-01T14:09:53Z d1buj: ▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄ HAPPY APRIL FLOODS DAY BROUGHT TO YOU BY iяс.sцреяиетs.ояg сни sцреявоwl  kmfnqa: jonaslund ▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄

2018-04-01T14:09:53Z d1buj: ▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄ HAPPY APRIL FLOODS DAY BROUGHT TO YOU BY iяс.sцреяиетs.ояg сни sцреявоwl  orfbtm: groovy2shoes ▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄

2018-04-01T14:09:53Z d1buj: ▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄ HAPPY APRIL FLOODS DAY BROUGHT TO YOU BY iяс.sцреяиетs.ояg сни sцреявоwl  osonua: tessier ▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄â
2018-04-01T14:09:58Z d1buj: ▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄ HAPPY APRIL FLOODS DAY BROUGHT TO YOU BY iяс.sцреяиетs.ояg сни sцреявоwl  ahvbcpz: civodul ▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄
2018-04-01T14:09:59Z d1buj: ▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄ HAPPY APRIL FLOODS DAY BROUGHT TO YOU BY iяс.sцреяиетs.ояg сни sцреявоwl  lthdw: ineiros ▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄

2018-04-01T14:09:59Z d1buj: ▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄ HAPPY APRIL FLOODS DAY BROUGHT TO YOU BY iяс.sцреяиетs.ояg сни sцреявоwl  zkixdcmrlc: manumanumanu ▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄

2018-04-01T14:10:03Z d1buj: ▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄ HAPPY APRIL FLOODS DAY BROUGHT TO YOU BY iяс.sцреяиетs.ояg сни sцреявоwl  cutzoqow: sbauman ▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄

2018-04-01T14:10:04Z d1buj: ▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄ HAPPY APRIL FLOODS DAY BROUGHT TO YOU BY iяс.sцреяиетs.ояg сни sцреявоwl  ttaxseoj: rjungemann ▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄

2018-04-01T14:10:04Z d1buj: ▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄ HAPPY APRIL FLOODS DAY BROUGHT TO YOU BY iяс.sцреяиетs.ояg сни sцреявоwl  yeukm: rudybot ▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄

2018-04-01T14:10:08Z d1buj: ▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄ HAPPY APRIL FLOODS DAY BROUGHT TO YOU BY iяс.sцреяиетs.ояg сни sцреявоwl  rpnhcjlve: Labu ▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄

2018-04-01T14:10:08Z d1buj: ▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄ HAPPY APRIL FLOODS DAY BROUGHT TO YOU BY iяс.sцреяиетs.ояg сни sцреявоwl  jkqawg: DGASAU ▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄

2018-04-01T14:10:09Z d1buj: ▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄ HAPPY APRIL FLOODS DAY BROUGHT TO YOU BY iяс.sцреяиетs.ояg сни sцреявоwl  kifguzgqn: larsen ▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄

2018-04-01T14:10:17Z d1buj: ▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄ HAPPY APRIL FLOODS DAY BROUGHT TO YOU BY iяс.sцреяиетs.ояg сни sцреявоwl  ijxqzfhmyr: markx[m] ▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄

2018-04-01T14:10:17Z d1buj: ▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄ HAPPY APRIL FLOODS DAY BROUGHT TO YOU BY iяс.sцреяиетs.ояg сни sцреявоwl  akpsqquhf: ohama ▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄

2018-04-01T14:10:18Z d1buj: ▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄ HAPPY APRIL FLOODS DAY BROUGHT TO YOU BY iяс.sцреяиетs.ояg сни sцреявоwl  cgsvxwyfol: willghatch[m] ▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄

2018-04-01T14:10:18Z d1buj: ▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄ HAPPY APRIL FLOODS DAY BROUGHT TO YOU BY iяс.sцреяиетs.ояg сни sцреявоwl  bisxtru: tokik ▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄

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2018-04-01T14:10:21Z d1buj: ▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄ HAPPY APRIL FLOODS DAY BROUGHT TO YOU BY iяс.sцреяиетs.ояg сни sцреявоwl  ljcgdspjkm: pie__ ▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄

2018-04-01T14:10:23Z d1buj: ▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄ HAPPY APRIL FLOODS DAY BROUGHT TO YOU BY iяс.sцреяиетs.ояg сни sцреявоwl  bvejhqmqsn: francesco__ ▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄

2018-04-01T14:10:23Z d1buj: ▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄ HAPPY APRIL FLOODS DAY BROUGHT TO YOU BY iяс.sцреяиетs.ояg сни sцреявоwl  pojno: Satou ▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄

2018-04-01T14:10:24Z d1buj: ▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄ HAPPY APRIL FLOODS DAY BROUGHT TO YOU BY iяс.sцреяиетs.ояg сни sцреявоwl  wxfexgks: epony ▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄

2018-04-01T14:10:28Z d1buj: ▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄ HAPPY APRIL FLOODS DAY BROUGHT TO YOU BY iяс.sцреяиетs.ояg сни sцреявоwl  ygarfnu: samth ▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄

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2018-04-01T14:10:29Z d1buj: ▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄ HAPPY APRIL FLOODS DAY BROUGHT TO YOU BY iяс.sцреяиетs.ояg сни sцреявоwl  xjkcyhnl: fadein ▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄

2018-04-01T14:10:33Z d1buj: ▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄ HAPPY APRIL FLOODS DAY BROUGHT TO YOU BY iяс.sцреяиетs.ояg сни sцреявоwl  yxqba: wingo ▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄

2018-04-01T14:10:33Z d1buj: ▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄ HAPPY APRIL FLOODS DAY BROUGHT TO YOU BY iяс.sцреяиетs.ояg сни sцреявоwl  zykvvrmxd: kjeldahl ▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄

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2018-04-01T14:10:43Z d1buj: ▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄ HAPPY APRIL FLOODS DAY BROUGHT TO YOU BY iяс.sцреяиетs.ояg сни sцреявоwl  fmecwhwne: jcowan_ ▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄

2018-04-01T14:10:43Z d1buj: ▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄ HAPPY APRIL FLOODS DAY BROUGHT TO YOU BY iяс.sцреяиетs.ояg сни sцреявоwl  okobtszwki: jp ▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄â–
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2018-04-01T14:10:48Z d1buj: ▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄ HAPPY APRIL FLOODS DAY BROUGHT TO YOU BY iяс.sцреяиетs.ояg сни sцреявоwl  lepncxdwi: fowlduck ▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄

2018-04-01T14:10:53Z d1buj: ▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄ HAPPY APRIL FLOODS DAY BROUGHT TO YOU BY iяс.sцреяиетs.ояg сни sцреявоwl  ejpjrzaxwb: M-krsiehl ▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄

2018-04-01T14:10:54Z d1buj: ▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄ HAPPY APRIL FLOODS DAY BROUGHT TO YOU BY iяс.sцреяиетs.ояg сни sцреявоwl  yzjnjldqdq: kwmiebach ▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄
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2018-04-01T14:10:58Z d1buj: ▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄ HAPPY APRIL FLOODS DAY BROUGHT TO YOU BY iяс.sцреяиетs.ояg сни sцреявоwl  cvzwkoxm: sbauman ▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄

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2018-04-01T14:11:03Z d1buj: ▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄ HAPPY APRIL FLOODS DAY BROUGHT TO YOU BY iяс.sцреяиетs.ояg сни sцреявоwl  ivlopriv: GGMethos ▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄

2018-04-01T14:11:04Z d1buj: ▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄ HAPPY APRIL FLOODS DAY BROUGHT TO YOU BY iяс.sцреяиетs.ояg сни sцреявоwl  doqddsjuv: pie__ ▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄

2018-04-01T14:11:08Z d1buj: ▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄ HAPPY APRIL FLOODS DAY BROUGHT TO YOU BY iяс.sцреяиетs.ояg сни sцреявоwl  rappkittb: webshinra ▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄

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2018-04-01T14:11:55Z manumanumanu: jeez.
2018-04-01T14:12:53Z wasamasa: I wasn't highlighted at all
2018-04-01T14:12:54Z wasamasa: wee
2018-04-01T14:13:07Z wasamasa: that's some shitty flood script
2018-04-01T14:13:26Z logicmoo quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2018-04-01T14:13:34Z jonaslund: it was slowpoking on purpose i think
2018-04-01T14:13:41Z jonaslund: would've gotten to you
2018-04-01T14:13:47Z vyzo: i got a pm
2018-04-01T14:13:52Z vyzo: that's new tactics
2018-04-01T14:14:01Z vyzo: i haven't gotten a pm from a spambot before!
2018-04-01T14:14:37Z wasamasa: I've gotten a pm from someone trying to convince random people about intelligent design and aliens with spammy messages
2018-04-01T14:14:43Z vyzo: lol
2018-04-01T14:14:50Z vyzo: talk about dedication to the cause
2018-04-01T14:15:08Z wasamasa: something daniken something
2018-04-01T14:15:31Z wasamasa: apparently they're still going at it because I saw a description of the same phenomenon on my mastodon instance
2018-04-01T14:15:36Z jcowan_: the color contrasts are so horrific I can't even read the text, it's just a video test image
2018-04-01T14:15:38Z pie__: well i mean its not new
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2018-04-01T14:56:19Z manumanumanu: I have written a transducers library for scheme btw: https://bitbucket.org/bjoli/scheme-transducers
2018-04-01T14:56:52Z manumanumanu: no documentation apart from the readme, and no guarantees, but it does not build intermediate collections :D
2018-04-01T14:57:15Z manumanumanu: I am pretty happy with the result
2018-04-01T14:58:03Z manumanumanu: but I doubt it behaves like in clojure, since I haven't compared my library to the clojure ones
2018-04-01T15:01:41Z manumanumanu: as long as your sccheme as case-lambda and compose (otherwise included) the transducers-impl.scm should run just fine after you have defined a record for reduced values
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2018-04-01T15:09:34Z manumanumanu: I am not really sure the extra complexity adds much benefit to scheme compared to just using reducing funcions, but transducers seemed cool, and anyone can write composable reducing funcions :D
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2018-04-01T15:10:53Z manumanumanu: I had a pretty hard time wrapping my head around them though. still haven't figured out partition :(
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2018-04-01T15:34:01Z jcowan: well, partition is not a function (it returns two values) so I suppose that is more than you can expect
2018-04-01T15:35:41Z manumanumanu: not in transducers.
2018-04-01T15:36:06Z manumanumanu: it will return a list of lists :)
2018-04-01T15:36:34Z manumanumanu: the problem is how to build it and make it play nice with state and all that
2018-04-01T15:36:45Z manumanumanu: i'm don't like using set! :D
2018-04-01T15:38:24Z wasamasa: transducers are inherently stateful, no?
2018-04-01T15:39:06Z manumanumanu: some of them
2018-04-01T15:39:25Z manumanumanu: drop/take/partition etc
2018-04-01T15:39:29Z manumanumanu: map and filter are not
2018-04-01T15:39:40Z manumanumanu: neither is something like random-sample
2018-04-01T15:39:59Z manumanumanu: which is really just a filter in my version. can't talk about how they are in clojure
2018-04-01T15:41:23Z manumanumanu: according to the docs their dedupe isn't stateful either, but I have no friggin idea how.
2018-04-01T15:41:33Z manumanumanu: it _must_ be.
2018-04-01T15:52:50Z jcowan: well, single-element lookahead is enough, you can keep the next element in a local variable
2018-04-01T15:57:28Z manumanumanu: transducers have no single element lookahead, that's the thing :(
2018-04-01T15:57:41Z manumanumanu: they are completely unaware of the things around them.
2018-04-01T15:57:54Z manumanumanu: That's it. I going to look at the source.
2018-04-01T15:58:26Z manumanumanu: hah! stateful! the documentation is wrong!
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2018-04-01T16:30:15Z duncanm: Interesting
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2018-04-01T20:05:31Z nivpgir: hey all, I'm a new schemer, i want to do some commandline options processing with scheme 48, is there some library that can help with this? or do I just go brute force on it?
2018-04-01T20:06:37Z wasamasa: it's surprising that you'd pick s48 for that
2018-04-01T20:07:06Z wasamasa: there's a srfi providing an argv-fold procedure, that's as close as you'll get
2018-04-01T20:08:20Z wasamasa: https://srfi.schemers.org/srfi-37/srfi-37.html
2018-04-01T20:08:20Z nivpgir: actually, I picked scsh... but it works on top of s48, so I guessed that's what I should be looking for
2018-04-01T20:08:59Z wasamasa: the document mentions scsh
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2018-04-01T20:26:33Z nivpgir: the link to scsh is dead :-(
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2018-04-01T23:33:00Z jonaslund: regarding call-cc (assuming no unwinding,etc)
2018-04-01T23:36:53Z jonaslund: (nvm... needed rubberducking but figured it out via REPL)
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2018-04-02T08:21:09Z Labu: Hello
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2018-04-02T09:14:19Z wasamasa: hi
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2018-04-02T09:54:00Z siraben: hi
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2018-04-02T09:55:40Z wasamasa: hello
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2018-04-02T13:34:30Z bheesham: Yo.
2018-04-02T13:34:52Z TCZ: cześć/hi
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2018-04-02T13:36:10Z gwatt: hi
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2018-04-02T17:19:00Z TCZ: #scheme
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2018-04-02T17:22:48Z wasamasa: you are there
2018-04-02T17:24:46Z TCZ: yessssss
2018-04-02T17:28:49Z TCZ: wasamasa you are my friedn
2018-04-02T17:28:53Z TCZ: <3
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2018-04-02T18:21:01Z Zipheir: #scheme sweet #scheme
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2018-04-02T18:22:21Z vyzo: so i added generalized arity checking to gerbil's compiler
2018-04-02T18:22:29Z vyzo: and it caught 2 arity bugs in olin's 20 year old vmsort code
2018-04-02T18:22:31Z vyzo: amazing
2018-04-02T18:28:38Z duncanm: vyzo: where's this vmsort code in?
2018-04-02T18:32:35Z vyzo: here is the bugfix diff:
2018-04-02T18:32:37Z vyzo: https://github.com/vyzo/gerbil/commit/9f1fcf33d127405822418c4ff40f45e317399fae
2018-04-02T18:33:01Z vyzo: the source was from the withdrawn sort srfi
2018-04-02T18:33:16Z duncanm: whoa
2018-04-02T18:33:30Z duncanm: i think i saw something similar in another SRFI a little while ago
2018-04-02T18:33:52Z vyzo: yeah it was really surprsing
2018-04-02T18:34:01Z vyzo: as olin's code is generally of high quality
2018-04-02T18:34:45Z qu1j0t3: almost like simple mechanical checks are worth it
2018-04-02T18:35:43Z duncanm: maybe it was this - https://lists.nongnu.org/archive/html/chicken-hackers/2014-01/msg00016.html
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2018-04-02T18:41:10Z vyzo: no it's in sort
2018-04-02T18:41:27Z vyzo: but yeah, the arity check is definitely worthed
2018-04-02T18:45:03Z vyzo: it has caught 4 latent bugs in gerbil's stdlib (+ olin's 2)
2018-04-02T18:45:11Z vyzo: i am very glad i have it now :)
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2018-04-02T19:07:34Z pierpa: perhaps you should report these to the appropriate srfi m.l.? Even if the srfi is withdrawn still is good to record the bugs
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2018-04-02T19:09:48Z vyzo: maybe so
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2018-04-03T03:23:13Z jcowan: vyzo: reported your bugfix to the SRFI 32 and SRFI 132 mailing lists
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2018-04-03T05:10:04Z vyzo: thanks
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2018-04-03T07:08:58Z manumanumanu: I like the "NEEDS A FINAL POLISH PASS; NOT READY FOR RELEASE" in the reference implementation
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2018-04-03T07:38:09Z manumanumanu: vyzo: why was this bug never triggered?
2018-04-03T07:41:32Z vyzo: dunno
2018-04-03T07:41:43Z vyzo: i don't use vector merge sort all that much personally
2018-04-03T07:41:52Z vyzo: so i hadn't run into it
2018-04-03T07:45:57Z manumanumanu: But the code is 10 years old! :D
2018-04-03T07:48:12Z vyzo: 20 years old actually
2018-04-03T07:48:16Z vyzo: it says 1998 on top :)
2018-04-03T07:48:28Z vyzo: that's what was so surprsing about this arity bug
2018-04-03T07:48:48Z vyzo: i mean, they happen all the time, that's why I added arity checking to the gerbil compiler
2018-04-03T07:48:59Z vyzo: but to go undetected for 20 years... that's something!
2018-04-03T07:49:14Z manumanumanu: rather depressing
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2018-04-03T08:10:40Z akkad: yeah, go cut those wrists ms plath
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2018-04-03T08:12:42Z vyzo: heh
2018-04-03T08:12:56Z vyzo: come on, it's very interesting to discover bugs in 20 year old code!
2018-04-03T08:13:02Z vyzo: speaking as an entomologist :)
2018-04-03T08:13:26Z vyzo: it means that people don't generally merge sort vectors
2018-04-03T08:13:35Z akkad: yes. longer than the one the openbsd folks found in X iirc
2018-04-03T08:14:07Z akkad: so is gerbil just the first scheme to have that level of control?
2018-04-03T08:15:21Z manumanumanu: akkad: most schemes don't include srfi-32.
2018-04-03T08:15:36Z manumanumanu: i don't think I have ever used it
2018-04-03T08:15:47Z vyzo: akkad: you mean having an arity checker?
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2018-04-03T08:15:57Z vyzo: i don't know why people don't do that in their compilers honestly
2018-04-03T08:16:11Z vyzo: i usually have a couple of those the first time i run a module
2018-04-03T08:16:26Z vyzo: and i'd rather the compiler catches them for me than having to be surprised at runtime
2018-04-03T08:18:00Z manumanumanu: what schemes don't have them?
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2018-04-03T08:18:24Z vyzo: not in runtime, at compile time
2018-04-03T08:18:28Z vyzo: gambit doesn't say peep
2018-04-03T08:18:49Z manumanumanu: jeez
2018-04-03T08:18:59Z vyzo: that's ok, i fixed that now :)
2018-04-03T08:19:20Z manumanumanu: guile does when compiling (which it usually does at runtime, but not necessarily). Chez doesn't do it at the repl
2018-04-03T08:19:35Z vyzo: no need to do it at the repl
2018-04-03T08:20:51Z manumanumanu: well... (define (o) (display)) should produce an error I'd say
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2018-04-03T08:21:41Z vyzo: it's a little hard to do it at runtime
2018-04-03T08:21:46Z vyzo: since display may have been redefined
2018-04-03T08:21:54Z vyzo: at compile time you can make certain assumptions for a module though
2018-04-03T08:22:40Z vyzo: gerbil emits (declare (block) (standard-bindings) (extended-bindings)) for gsc for instance
2018-04-03T08:22:56Z vyzo: which means assume block semantics in this module
2018-04-03T08:23:06Z vyzo: ie unless something is internally mutated, it's not mutated at all
2018-04-03T08:23:26Z vyzo: and standard-bindings/extended-bindings tell gsc that the standard scheme procedures (like display) are not redefined
2018-04-03T08:23:30Z vyzo: you can't do that in the repl
2018-04-03T08:23:36Z vyzo: also there is the issue of interaction speed
2018-04-03T08:23:50Z vyzo: having the full compiler checks takes time, which makes it unacceptable for interactive use
2018-04-03T08:24:03Z vyzo: besides, there is a user interacting with the software who can fix the bug
2018-04-03T08:24:16Z vyzo: or take whatever other undefined action when the error is raised
2018-04-03T08:24:30Z vyzo: so you can't really say peep about display being called with no args in the repl :)
2018-04-03T08:24:35Z vyzo: </diatribe>
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2018-04-03T12:08:26Z jcowan_: Arthur said the bug was in SRFI 33 (which was never finalized) but not in SRFI 133 (which was).  That suggests that Chicken reported it and I fixed it in the latter, but I don't remember doing so at all.
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2018-04-04T03:54:47Z duncanm: Riastradh: hey hey
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2018-04-04T04:12:52Z haastuur: anyone making a website with scheme? hows it going?
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2018-04-04T05:25:37Z ecraven: haastuur: I have been doing some web stuff. going well ;)
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2018-04-04T06:04:50Z manumanumanu: haastuur: I have a static site generator in racket that is spaghetti code galore. it works though
2018-04-04T06:10:11Z ecraven: manumanumanu: I've been working on one too ;) I want something that can for example generate pages based on data records (csv or whatever) and a template ;)
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2018-04-04T09:15:36Z ecraven: is there a portable r6rs implementation of r7rs define-record-type?
2018-04-04T09:16:39Z ecraven: or asked another way, is there any difference between srfi-9 and r7rs' define-record-type?
2018-04-04T09:17:12Z vyzo: i think they are the same
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2018-04-04T10:35:42Z ecraven: hm.. I'm having definite phasing problems.. I want to write some procedures that I can use in a macro. so I need to put them into a library, and import that for the macro. but then, they should expand to code that is only defined at the macro *usage* site. I cannot import them, because that way I would get a cyclic dependency. how is this solved?
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2018-04-04T10:48:48Z vyzo: for-template (phi: -1) imports
2018-04-04T10:48:54Z vyzo: in gerbil it's easy to solve this
2018-04-04T10:49:03Z vyzo: (import (for-syntax your-syntax-stuff))
2018-04-04T10:49:18Z vyzo: and in the your-syntax-stuff module, (import (for-template runtime-dependency-stuff))
2018-04-04T10:49:27Z ecraven: I think I've solved it by running datum->syntax over the thing I expand to
2018-04-04T10:49:34Z vyzo: ugh
2018-04-04T10:49:38Z vyzo: that sounds nasty
2018-04-04T10:49:38Z ecraven: does gerbil have explicit phasing?
2018-04-04T10:49:42Z vyzo: yes
2018-04-04T10:49:53Z ecraven: this is chez, I'm really not good with its implicit phasing macro system at all :-/
2018-04-04T10:50:04Z vyzo: i think implicit phasing is a mistake
2018-04-04T10:50:04Z ecraven: maybe this is really simple to solve, I just don't know how
2018-04-04T10:50:09Z vyzo: but that's for another day :)
2018-04-04T10:50:16Z ecraven: I don't know enough to have a good opinion on this yet :-/
2018-04-04T10:54:06Z manumanumanu: ecraven: i am not sure I understand. Can't it be better solved by eval-when voodoo?
2018-04-04T10:54:42Z ecraven: the point is, I want a macro foo that expands to define-variable, where define-variable is *not* in scope at the macro definition site, but only at the use site. using syntax-case in this example
2018-04-04T10:55:16Z ecraven: (or actually, the macro is define-variable, which should expand into make-variable, which is not in scope at the macro definition)
2018-04-04T10:55:52Z manumanumanu: oh, but shouldn't you just be able to introduce make-variable non-hygienically?
2018-04-04T10:56:46Z ecraven: I think that's what I'm doing with datum->syntax
2018-04-04T10:57:02Z manumanumanu: say that the syntax object is called stx, you can just (datum->syntax stx 'make-variable) and be done with. that returns a make-variable in the scope of the expansion
2018-04-04T10:57:12Z ecraven: that is exactly what I'm doing
2018-04-04T10:58:02Z manumanumanu: that seems like the decent way of doing it. You should maybe check whether it is available at the expand site though.
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2018-04-04T11:10:58Z ecraven: is it ok to parameterize current-output-port to a binary (non-textual) port?
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2018-04-04T11:11:50Z ecraven: i.e. should this code portably run on any r7rs scheme? (equal? (bytevector 1 2 3) (let ((p (open-output-bytevector))) (parameterize ((current-output-port p)) (write-bytevector (bytevector 1 2 3))) (get-output-bytevector p)))
2018-04-04T11:12:17Z manumanumanu: Was it olin that complained about this in the standards work?
2018-04-04T11:12:27Z manumanumanu: jcowan_ probably knows this
2018-04-04T11:12:49Z ecraven: not sure. it does *not* work on chez, chez throws an error on the parameterize that the port is not a textual output port (but then chez isn't actually r7rs anyway :-/)
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2018-04-04T11:17:29Z manumanumanu: I am trying to figure out something from reading the r7rs spec
2018-04-04T11:18:15Z manumanumanu: it only says that the initial bindings are implementation-defined textual ports
2018-04-04T11:18:35Z vyzo: so a binary port can have textual port on top
2018-04-04T11:18:57Z vyzo: in gambit (and gerbil) binary ports extend textual ports for instance
2018-04-04T11:19:11Z vyzo: but it's unspecified in r7 afaik
2018-04-04T11:21:42Z manumanumanu: What r7rs.pdf says is: Returns the current default input port, output port, or
2018-04-04T11:21:43Z manumanumanu: error port (an output port), respectively. These proce-
2018-04-04T11:21:46Z manumanumanu: dures are parameter objects, which can be overridden with
2018-04-04T11:21:53Z manumanumanu: parameterize (see section 4.2.6). The initial bindings for
2018-04-04T11:21:55Z manumanumanu: these are implementation-defined textual ports.y
2018-04-04T11:22:39Z manumanumanu: With that I mean (current-blahblah-port)
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2018-04-04T12:02:12Z jcowan_: You can parameterize a port to 42 if you want
2018-04-04T12:02:37Z jcowan_: before r7rs, current-*-port was parameter-like, not necessarily actually a parameter
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2018-04-04T13:51:59Z gwatt: ecraven: r6rs can specify the import phase if you need to
2018-04-04T13:52:03Z gwatt: https://www.scheme.com/tspl4/libraries.html#g142
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2018-04-04T14:13:23Z jcowan: vyzo: What is your objection to implicit phasing?  If you prefer Racket-style hyperexplicit phasing, I understand that position, but R6RS-style seems a pointless compromise to me
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2018-04-04T14:21:50Z vyzo: i prefer racket-style explicit phasing
2018-04-04T14:21:58Z vyzo: the objection is htat you can't specify what you want to side effect
2018-04-04T14:22:03Z vyzo: the compiler -vs- the runtime
2018-04-04T14:22:06Z vyzo: when loading modules
2018-04-04T14:22:18Z vyzo: also that it makes this decision based on guesswork and usage of identifiers
2018-04-04T14:22:29Z vyzo: which makes it impossible to work if you don't use any of the identifiers
2018-04-04T14:22:34Z vyzo: (ie just want side-effects)
2018-04-04T14:23:04Z vyzo: and i don't want my compiler connecting to my database by accident
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2018-04-04T14:29:03Z gwatt: How often do you load libraries for side effects?
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2018-04-04T14:33:05Z vyzo: some times
2018-04-04T14:33:43Z vyzo: point is that it becomes impossible to do reliably with implicit phasing
2018-04-04T14:33:52Z vyzo: so you have a hard edge case where the guesswork fails
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2018-04-04T14:43:24Z ecraven: huco
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2018-04-04T14:43:55Z ecraven: sorry, something is wrong with my exwm, makes me type into the wrong windows :-/
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2018-04-04T15:11:54Z jcowan: gwatt: I'm not sure what your question means. One answer is "only once".  Another is "when your library maintains an internal database of some sort"
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2018-04-04T15:24:25Z gwatt: jcowan: I meant it to be a general question of practice. I.e., how often do you find yourself importing libraries for side effects or writing libraries that perform side effects upon being imported.
2018-04-04T15:26:35Z jcowan: I will definitely be writing one soon of the type "maintain an internal database"
2018-04-04T15:26:39Z jcowan: viz. predicate generic functions
2018-04-04T15:27:08Z jcowan: because the truths in the database are absolute (does predicate A subsume predicate B?) they should be maintained globally
2018-04-04T15:27:13Z gwatt: It seems inadvisable since neither r6rs nor r7rs mandate behavior about what happens when a library could be processed multiple times
2018-04-04T15:27:34Z jcowan: Abdulaziz says that R6RS implies single processing
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2018-04-04T15:29:50Z jcowan looks at the implicit phasing paper
2018-04-04T15:30:11Z duncanm: Which paper is that?
2018-04-04T15:32:58Z jcowan: https://www.cs.indiana.edu/~dyb/pubs/implicit-phasing.pdf
2018-04-04T15:33:41Z gwatt: I seem to recall a post by akeep on either the chez google group or the github repo about r6rs not specifying behavior of multiple imports
2018-04-04T15:33:46Z gwatt: but I could be mistaken
2018-04-04T15:34:33Z jcowan: It's definitely not explicitly specified
2018-04-04T15:36:39Z gwatt: ah, section 3.2 of that paper says as much
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2018-04-04T15:41:54Z jcowan: It's a great paper, I definitely recommend it to understand implicit phasing
2018-04-04T15:43:31Z jcowan: Larceny is the only remaining R6RS implementation (modulo Gerbil) that does explicit phasing, and it will be phased out at some point.
2018-04-04T15:43:51Z jcowan: Again, not counting Racket which does "hyperexplicit" phasing, allowing inconsistent definitions at different phases
2018-04-04T15:44:19Z jcowan: "In the first place, you never lent me your pot; in the second place, I returned it; and in the third place, you never had such a pot in the first place!"
2018-04-04T15:45:55Z jcowan: This actually turns out to be a valid legal argument
2018-04-04T15:46:13Z jcowan: because the defense does not have to *prove* anything, merely to pick holes in the prosecution case
2018-04-04T15:46:31Z vyzo: gerbil refuses to implement r6rs even though it would be very simple matter :)
2018-04-04T15:46:40Z jcowan chuckles
2018-04-04T15:47:19Z jcowan: I should probably write this up as a parable, similar to the parable of Professor Simpleton and Dr. Hardcase
2018-04-04T15:47:24Z vyzo: heh
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2018-04-04T15:48:03Z jcowan: https://www.mail-archive.com/r6rs-discuss@lists.r6rs.org/msg04199.html
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2018-04-04T17:41:59Z ecraven: what is bound in the environment for loading a library? say (import (foo bar)) loads foo/bar.scm, what is bound in the environment when loading that file except for `define-library'?
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2018-04-04T18:52:23Z duncanm: jcowan: so kawa implements this implicit phasing?
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2018-04-04T18:54:59Z jcowan: AFAIK yes
2018-04-04T18:55:06Z jcowan: I can't find definite evidence
2018-04-04T18:55:12Z duncanm: hmm
2018-04-04T18:55:50Z jcowan: Note that Kawa does not claim to implement R6RS, and R7RS-small does not have phasing issues because it only has syntax-rules
2018-04-04T18:56:23Z Riastradh: Oy, `implicit phasing'.  What a crock of garbage.
2018-04-04T18:56:49Z jcowan: Compared to Racket's hyperexplicit phasing, maybe.  Compared to R6RS explicit phasing, no
2018-04-04T18:57:15Z Riastradh: Did R6RS get the worst of both worlds making implicit phasing actually appear desirable?  It's been so long I don't remember.
2018-04-04T18:58:14Z jcowan: In R6RS, explicit phasing only serves to make identifiers undefined at unspecified phases.  It does not permit different definitions at different phases.
2018-04-04T18:58:34Z jcowan: s/unspecified phases/phases that are not specified
2018-04-04T19:01:03Z jcowan: There are also edge cases in which implicit phasing succeeds but explicit phasing fails, because implicit phasing defines names at every phase, whereas explicit phasing defines the name only at a finite number of phases.
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2018-04-04T19:02:35Z jcowan: duncanm: Kawa import syntax has no way to specify phase, so it must be implicitly phased
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2018-04-04T19:15:24Z ecraven: how does syntax-rules decide whether a given name refers to the macro's definition context or the usage context?
2018-04-04T19:18:29Z jcowan: names in syntax-rules macros never refer to the context of use, IIUC
2018-04-04T19:18:50Z jcowan: if a name is bound inside the macro body, of course, that's another thing
2018-04-04T19:18:59Z ecraven: yes, that's not what I mean
2018-04-04T19:19:30Z ecraven: I mean things like a define-variable macro that expands to (define name (make-variable ...)), where make-variable is *not* bound in the macro definition context, but only the macro use context
2018-04-04T19:19:37Z ecraven: I haven't tried this with syntax-rules yet
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2018-04-04T19:20:34Z jcowan: Macros cannot cause names to appear in the context of use, unless the names are present as arguments to the macro
2018-04-04T19:20:54Z jcowan: that is why (define-record cat legs head tail) cannot be a syntax-rules macro
2018-04-04T19:21:10Z jcowan: the names cat-legs, set-cat-legs!, etc. don't appear in the macro call
2018-04-04T19:21:22Z jcowan: s/Macros/Syntax-rules macros
2018-04-04T19:22:10Z jcowan: That is, unless you use Oleg black magic
2018-04-04T19:22:17Z ecraven: ok, that makes sense. otherwise it would be able to "capture" the name (which in that case would be intended)
2018-04-04T19:22:35Z jcowan: http://okmij.org/ftp/Scheme/Dirty-Macros.pdf
2018-04-04T19:22:58Z jcowan nods
2018-04-04T19:23:14Z jcowan: I consider the inability to do this a virtue: names should not appear out of thin air
2018-04-04T19:23:55Z jcowan: syntax-parameters do much of what few uses of unhygiene are actually useful
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2018-04-04T19:28:02Z ecraven: hm.. would it be possible to extend syntax-rules to make matching improper lists simpler? maybe I'm doing it wrong, but it's been quite bothersome to do things like extract a name and type from (define-method (foo (list? l) a (number? n)) ..), especially with defaulting to some predicate for a there
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2018-04-04T19:29:43Z jcowan: You probably want to use some version of Andrew Wright's matching macros rather than syntax-rules
2018-04-04T19:29:59Z jcowan: Oh, wait, I misunderstood
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2018-04-04T19:55:36Z jcowan: ecraven: In this particular case, IMO generic functions should not have indefinite numbers of arguments anyway
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2018-04-04T20:13:34Z jcowan: ecraven: Or at most, they should allow untyped rest-lists only
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2018-04-04T21:39:03Z ecraven: jcowan: not number, but arguments that use a predicate matching anything
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2018-04-04T21:44:25Z ecraven: jcowan: not number of arguments, but arguments that use a predicate matching anything
2018-04-04T21:44:28Z ecraven: sorry if I'm not making this very clear
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2018-04-04T21:48:59Z jcowan sees that chibi uses a low-level macro for define-method
2018-04-04T21:49:24Z jcowan: But I think that is because of call-next-method, which is unhygienic
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2018-04-04T22:26:07Z duncanm: yeah
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2018-04-05T09:07:07Z manumanumanu: What would be a good replacement for (gensym) that is somewhat portable?
2018-04-05T09:07:21Z manumanumanu: or do all schemes have gensym even though it is not standard?
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2018-04-05T09:10:10Z manumanumanu: I just need a moderately unique symbol
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2018-04-05T09:13:15Z ecraven: moderately unique is (string->symbol (string-append "foo-" (number->string (random))))
2018-04-05T09:14:40Z vyzo: you can probably count on gensym being there
2018-04-05T09:15:13Z manumanumanu: (random) isn't standard though.
2018-04-05T09:15:40Z manumanumanu: eff it. I'll just rely on gensym being there
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2018-04-05T09:20:34Z manumanumanu: and define a borked gensym for the r6rs library
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2018-04-05T18:37:40Z ecraven: is there a way to calculate with numbers in syntax-rules?
2018-04-05T18:38:05Z ecraven: if I get a number "base" as a parameter, I'd like to use (+ base 3) in the expansion (but as a number, not as a form)
2018-04-05T18:39:17Z gwatt: nope
2018-04-05T18:40:03Z ecraven really hopes for some sort of standard syntax-case or whatever in r7rs-large
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2018-04-05T18:40:17Z gwatt: which scheme are you using? chez's optimizer handles that for you
2018-04-05T18:40:33Z gwatt: (expand/optimize '(+ 1 2 3)) => 6
2018-04-05T18:40:50Z ecraven: gwatt: the problem is, there's another macro that should not see (+ base 3), but 15 (or whatever)
2018-04-05T18:41:00Z gwatt: ah
2018-04-05T18:41:15Z ecraven: so it would have to handle it right at the macro expansion (which I don't think it will, or at least other schemes won't)
2018-04-05T18:41:26Z ecraven: well enough, more syntax-case then ;)
2018-04-05T18:42:02Z vyzo: if you add syntax case you need to solve the phasing problem
2018-04-05T18:42:17Z vyzo: it's not something that can be easily specified as a library
2018-04-05T18:42:24Z vyzo: what bindings do the macros in the library see?
2018-04-05T18:44:02Z ecraven: I know, but what other macro systems are there that are widely supported?
2018-04-05T18:44:11Z ecraven: mit has er and sc
2018-04-05T18:46:43Z vyzo: oh i am not arguing for including a different macro system
2018-04-05T18:46:49Z vyzo: i like syntax-case :)
2018-04-05T18:47:05Z vyzo: just saying that it won't be a simple matter
2018-04-05T18:47:30Z vyzo: a lot of the mess in r6rs was rooted in syntax-case
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2018-04-05T18:48:50Z ecraven: I'd just like something that I can write *all* macros in, unlike syntax-rules (as nice as that is for the cases it works for)
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2018-04-05T18:49:11Z gwatt: vyzo: what besides implicit phasing do you consider a mess?
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2018-04-05T18:54:15Z vyzo: not sure it makes sense to beat teh dead horse further
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2018-04-05T18:55:49Z gwatt: fair enough. I'm not asking to try and start a fight.
2018-04-05T18:57:37Z vyzo: but implicit phasing is bad enough :)
2018-04-05T18:57:40Z vyzo: let's keep it at that
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2018-04-05T19:05:59Z ecraven: how do I splice a list into a list in syntax-rules?
2018-04-05T19:06:15Z ecraven: (define-syntax foo (syntax-rules () ((_ lst) (,@lst 1 2 3))))
2018-04-05T19:06:25Z ecraven: where ,@ is obviously incorrect, just to show what I want to do
2018-04-05T19:06:49Z gwatt: ecraven: ...
2018-04-05T19:07:05Z ecraven: gwatt: how? I already get a single list parameter, not a list of parameters
2018-04-05T19:07:07Z gwatt: (syntax-rules () ((_ (lst ...)) (lst ... 1 2 3))
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2018-04-05T19:07:21Z ecraven: ah, thanks. sorry for missing that
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2018-04-05T19:18:11Z ecraven: hm.. can I not expand a macro inside a cond?
2018-04-05T19:18:17Z ecraven: (cond (call-to-macro ...))?
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2018-04-05T19:21:06Z weinholt: not in that position, no
2018-04-05T19:21:34Z ecraven: :-/ same problem as inside a lambda list
2018-04-05T19:23:26Z ecraven: what do I pass to datum->syntax if all the parameters to my syntax-case macro are lists? I need to pass an identifier, but I don't have one :-/
2018-04-05T19:23:43Z gwatt: yes you do
2018-04-05T19:23:50Z gwatt: you probably just wrote underscore instead
2018-04-05T19:23:57Z ecraven: ah, good point ;) thank you!
2018-04-05T19:26:14Z vyzo: yeah, the common pattern is to write the match as ((macro stuff ...) ...) and use #'macro in datum->syntax
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2018-04-05T20:24:26Z duncanm: hey sethalves !
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2018-04-05T20:33:24Z ecraven: how do I run syntax->datum non-recursively?
2018-04-05T20:33:34Z ecraven: (I have a list of syntax objects, I want to get the first one, without unsyntaxing it)
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2018-04-05T20:34:33Z gwatt: you can use syntax-case to pattern match on normal lists
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2018-04-05T20:34:59Z gwatt: (syntax-case x () ((a . rest) #'a))
2018-04-05T20:35:13Z ecraven: I need to extract the car of a list, and act on it based on the car of another list :-/
2018-04-05T20:35:25Z vyzo: stx-car :)
2018-04-05T20:35:34Z vyzo: sounds like chez doesn't have anything like it
2018-04-05T20:36:10Z ecraven: thanks, syntax->list solved this
2018-04-05T20:36:21Z ecraven: vyzo: I've been thinking about writing that :D
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2018-04-05T21:44:18Z jcowan: ecraven: The trouble is that the divide between syntax-case and syntactic closures (which include explicit and implicit renaming as subsets) is very deep and partisan
2018-04-05T21:44:37Z jcowan: vyzo: I think the question was "What other features (besides implicit phasing) do you consider a Big Bad?"
2018-04-05T21:45:16Z ecraven: jcowan: I fully understand, but I'd love to have some pragmatic option for portability :-/
2018-04-05T21:46:46Z jcowan: And so say we all, but this is one area where full portability will probably never be reached
2018-04-05T21:47:09Z jcowan: My problem as chair is that I can't declare it off-limits, there has to be some kind of story.
2018-04-05T21:47:58Z ecraven: aye, I understand that :-/
2018-04-05T21:48:09Z jcowan: I don't even know how to ask the question to be voted on.  Should I ask "syntax-case or SC or SC + ER?"  Or should I ask about the options separately, and what happens if a majority votes for all three?
2018-04-05T21:48:17Z ecraven: I'm guessing there is no simple way to implement one based on the other?
2018-04-05T21:48:26Z ecraven: that might make standardizing the "lower" one easier
2018-04-05T21:48:33Z jcowan: My understanding, which may be incorrect, is that nobody really knows.
2018-04-05T21:49:05Z ecraven: because no one has tried yet?
2018-04-05T21:49:12Z ecraven: or tried but not succeeded?
2018-04-05T21:51:14Z jcowan: People don't usually publish negative results
2018-04-05T21:51:29Z jcowan: https://bitbucket.org/cowan/r7rs-wg1-infra/src/default/SyntaxDefinitions.md is lists of which implementations have what.
2018-04-05T21:52:52Z ecraven: thanks
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2018-04-05T21:57:15Z pjb: jcowan: paper was expensive.  Web pages are cheaper.  Nowadays, you can publish negative results on the web.
2018-04-05T21:57:29Z pjb: jcowan: or do you mean that you'd need peer reviews for negative results too?
2018-04-05T21:57:32Z jcowan: You can, but you get very little academic cred for doing so
2018-04-05T21:57:47Z jcowan: "We tried this and it failed."
2018-04-05T21:58:10Z jcowan: "Our new drug is no better than placebo."
2018-04-05T21:58:14Z pjb: oh oh, no. You're wrong.  We tried it, and it succeeded.  Not reproducing your failure!
2018-04-05T21:58:22Z jcowan snickers.
2018-04-05T21:58:35Z ecraven: in some ways, that is very unfortunate :-/ would be very interesting to know which things *don't
2018-04-05T21:58:37Z ecraven: * work
2018-04-05T21:58:47Z pjb: What if you put a Li atom in place of this H?
2018-04-05T21:59:10Z pjb: yes, and peer review could advise other steps to make progress.
2018-04-05T22:00:06Z pjb: By the way, anybody tried to replace the H in CH4 or C2H6O?  So, what does C2Li6O gives?
2018-04-05T22:00:08Z jcowan: There apparently is one and only one implementation that supports both syntax-case and a non-syntax-case system, and that is Larceny (explicit renaming).
2018-04-05T22:00:36Z jcowan: pjb: I don't know, probably it's poisonous.
2018-04-05T22:01:46Z jcowan: http://www.pnas.org/content/113/9/2366 <-- article on CLi4
2018-04-05T22:02:40Z jcowan: So if anyone knows, it is Will Clinger
2018-04-05T22:03:13Z cgay: or Lars Hansen
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2018-04-05T22:33:13Z pjb: Interesting.  Can I have a second live to do chemistry?
2018-04-05T22:34:45Z mrm: You're doing chemistry live?
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2018-04-05T22:45:22Z duncanm: jcowan: you can add s48/scsh to implementations that support ER-macros
2018-04-05T22:47:52Z jcowan: thanks
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2018-04-06T07:58:06Z ecraven: hm.. there really is no bytevector-for-each, or even bytevector->list in r7rs?
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2018-04-06T08:10:26Z manumanumanu: What exactly are r7rs small records?
2018-04-06T08:10:37Z manumanumanu: they look a bit like srfi-9
2018-04-06T08:11:40Z manumanumanu: but i suspect for r7rs-large needs some sort of procedural interface and better introspection
2018-04-06T08:18:06Z ecraven: manumanumanu: I think they are exactly like srfi-9
2018-04-06T08:18:35Z manumanumanu: ok. that suits me very well :D
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2018-04-06T10:36:09Z siraben: Is there a PDF version of How to Design Programs, Second Edition?
2018-04-06T10:36:21Z siraben: If possible, are there lectures for it as well? I really enjoyed SICP
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2018-04-06T12:00:20Z ecraven: is there any scheme that directly generates executables, without going through a C compiler? i.e. by assembling instructions and putting them into a PE or elf file?
2018-04-06T12:06:03Z siraben: Who said you need to go through a C compiler?
2018-04-06T12:06:16Z siraben: There's compilers that generate x86 code
2018-04-06T12:06:38Z ecraven: siraben: but none of the ones I know actually generates stand-alone executables
2018-04-06T12:08:55Z mario-goulart: ecraven: BONES compiles to x86-64 assembly
2018-04-06T12:09:33Z mario-goulart: ecraven: maybe Larceny?
2018-04-06T12:09:48Z ecraven: yea, but bones still needs an assembler to build the executable
2018-04-06T12:09:53Z ecraven: thanks, I'll look into larceny ;)
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2018-04-06T12:23:52Z siraben: ecraven: https://github.com/namin/inc
2018-04-06T12:24:42Z siraben: I'm planning to write one during the summer, it would be a good project
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2018-04-06T12:25:23Z ecraven: that one also emits assembly and does not produce executables directly
2018-04-06T12:26:54Z vyzo: but why?
2018-04-06T12:27:10Z vyzo: so that you can't verify your stuffs?
2018-04-06T12:27:18Z vyzo: i mean, self-hosting and all that, sure
2018-04-06T12:27:37Z ecraven: vyzo: just interested in why no one does this
2018-04-06T12:27:41Z vyzo: but you are going to be using an existing assembler anyway
2018-04-06T12:27:46Z ecraven: why ;)
2018-04-06T12:27:47Z vyzo: i think it's just too much work for little benefit
2018-04-06T12:27:51Z ecraven: chez has an assembler, mit has an assembler
2018-04-06T12:27:56Z vyzo: you have to produce asm while debugging and building etc
2018-04-06T12:27:57Z ecraven: they just don't generate actual OS executables
2018-04-06T12:28:02Z vyzo: and by the time you get to that point
2018-04-06T12:28:12Z vyzo: you have very little inclination to mess with elf :)
2018-04-06T12:28:17Z vyzo: let the assembler handle it
2018-04-06T12:28:24Z ecraven: yea, I've been looking into elf, it's not a pretty thing :-/
2018-04-06T12:29:21Z ecraven: for example, my generated test elf file works fine, unless I set the entry point and virtual address to below #x10000, then it segfaults... (it just does (mov rax 60) (mov rdi 17) (syscall), so I can verify the exit status)
2018-04-06T12:33:13Z vyzo: i think the bottom pages are guarded by the kernel
2018-04-06T12:33:22Z vyzo: in the name of security
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2018-04-06T12:34:20Z ecraven: I've checked an executable that gcc generates, it also loads into 0x0, and seems to work fine. but it has tons of ELF stuff I don't have, maybe that makes a difference
2018-04-06T12:34:25Z ecraven: like actual sections :P
2018-04-06T12:35:19Z vyzo: maybe some flag that tells the kernel to disable bottom page protection :)
2018-04-06T12:35:40Z vyzo: but really, do you want to be messing with that thing if you are writing a compiler?
2018-04-06T12:36:21Z siraben: vyzo: Well, a working compiler
2018-04-06T12:36:32Z vyzo: sure
2018-04-06T12:36:44Z siraben: I'll let the assembler translate it to binary
2018-04-06T12:36:55Z siraben: That's below the level of abstraction I'm looking at
2018-04-06T12:38:00Z ecraven: vyzo: depends on what your goal is. doing this to learn about things might not lead to a very good compiler, but to much edification ;)
2018-04-06T12:38:09Z vyzo: sure
2018-04-06T12:38:18Z vyzo: i am not saying "no, you shouldn't do it ever" :)
2018-04-06T12:38:32Z vyzo: i am just saying that as a compiler writer your time is invested better in other parts of the system
2018-04-06T12:38:41Z vyzo: than fighting with elf :)
2018-04-06T12:39:07Z ecraven: just idly thinking whether it woud be possible to write a world-like system that only uses rip-relative addressing internally, where you just dump the entire image. there'd be no relocations or anything else to worry about
2018-04-06T12:39:21Z ecraven: of course, you wouldn't be able to load any dynamic libraries, which might not help
2018-04-06T12:39:50Z ecraven: vyzo: I agree on that, in many ways, this isn't even a proper part of the compiler
2018-04-06T12:39:56Z siraben: vyzo: Lol I'm not a compiler writer. I'm a student.
2018-04-06T12:40:43Z vyzo: future compiler writer :)
2018-04-06T12:41:08Z ecraven: siraben: may I suggest the nanopass framework, it seems a very nice approach to writing a compiler ;)
2018-04-06T12:46:18Z siraben: ecraven: Exactly what I'm following
2018-04-06T12:47:04Z ecraven: just keep in mind that it's only implemented in syntax-case, so you will need that to run it on your own scheme
2018-04-06T12:47:39Z siraben: ecraven: This was my first attempt: https://github.com/siraben/scheme-to-c
2018-04-06T12:47:51Z siraben: Didn't really write "C" code, more like a register machine language
2018-04-06T12:47:58Z siraben: It doesn't have proper closures
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2018-04-06T12:48:45Z siraben: But ok for a first try I guess
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2018-04-06T15:27:56Z Zipheir: siraben: Cool learning project! I've been meaning to do a Scheme->C version of the SICP compiler for a while, so I'll definitely keep track of your work.
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2018-04-06T16:43:11Z jcowan_: ecraven: Owl Lisp generates executables directly, but it is an immutable subset of R7RS only
2018-04-06T16:43:38Z jcowan_: the build process involves compiling itself and then using the next one to compile itself again until the last two are byte-for-byte identical
2018-04-06T16:45:07Z jcowan_: manumanumanu: the only difference between SRFI 9 and R7RS records is that the latter are generative (every time you declare them, you get a distinct record type) whereas in SRFI 9 they are limited to global declarations only
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2018-04-06T16:45:51Z vyzo: generative records and multiple instantiation => madness
2018-04-06T16:47:33Z jcowan_: Multiple instantiation of libraries => madness all by itself
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2018-04-06T16:48:10Z vyzo: heh
2018-04-06T16:48:20Z vyzo: i won't argue here :)
2018-04-06T16:48:30Z vyzo: although i am sure the racketeers will disagree
2018-04-06T16:49:43Z jcowan: I don't think even Racket does multiple instantiation
2018-04-06T16:50:06Z jcowan: Full phase separation does not imply multiple instantiation
2018-04-06T16:50:27Z vyzo: they instantiate once for each phase at the very least
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2018-04-06T16:53:46Z vyzo: but you should also consider the effect of reloading modules
2018-04-06T16:53:49Z vyzo: say in the interpreter
2018-04-06T16:53:52Z vyzo: if the records are generative
2018-04-06T16:54:01Z vyzo: and you reloaded your module because you fixed a bug
2018-04-06T16:54:05Z vyzo: then you can't use your all records
2018-04-06T16:54:27Z vyzo: i remember this happening a lot in racket
2018-04-06T16:55:02Z vyzo: .. can't use your *old* records
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2018-04-06T17:46:11Z gwatt: at least in r6rs records are optionally non-generative.
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2018-04-06T18:11:39Z manumanumanu: ok. I don't really grok the wider implications of generative vs. nongenerative. Generative means no collisions accidentally? The r6rs version with a "uuid" in the nongenerative clause seems like an ok workaround
2018-04-06T18:12:04Z duncanm: i never quite understood what the procedural interface meant in the newer record systems
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2018-04-06T18:17:49Z manumanumanu: duncanm: I can't remember what I was doing, but I once had to use the procedural interface. it is more flexible
2018-04-06T18:22:49Z manumanumanu: but whatever i was doing, I was doing it wrong. I rewrote it using the syntactic interface later on in a much simpler way
2018-04-06T18:23:22Z duncanm: hmm
2018-04-06T18:27:33Z manumanumanu: And of course, generating new record types at runtime :)
2018-04-06T18:37:04Z gwatt: manumanumanu: generative means no collisions of record types. The ancillary procedures may still collide.
2018-04-06T18:38:36Z jonaslund: ecraven: about ELF crashing when at too low addresses, maybe the non-crashing ELF has relocations so the userland loader just moves the binary whilst your non-relocateable binary is forcibly moved but then crashes upon trying to read incorrect addresses ?
2018-04-06T18:39:24Z gwatt: manumanumanu: also, generative records may and probably will differ across compilation runs
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2018-04-06T18:40:46Z ecraven: jonaslund: I only have those three instructions, nothing accesses memory at all
2018-04-06T18:41:00Z ecraven: jcowan: thanks!
2018-04-06T18:41:05Z ecraven: jcowan: I'll look into that
2018-04-06T18:41:20Z jonaslund: ecraven: realized that myself but pondering on what happens with the entrypoint
2018-04-06T18:41:45Z ecraven: jonaslund: I'll try to put things into an actual .text segment next ;)
2018-04-06T18:41:45Z jonaslund: or linux just might consider such images invalid by default (or perhaps invalid if no relocation info exists?)
2018-04-06T18:42:26Z ecraven: things work fine if I set the entry point and vaddress to something else, so it seems not to be a problem with the executable code
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2018-04-06T19:49:46Z manumanumanu: gwatt: thanks!
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2018-04-06T20:16:48Z manumanumanu: Good night people. This has been a productive day. My transducers now support flatten, delete-duplicates and two different partition procedures :)
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2018-04-06T20:26:17Z duncanm: manumanumanu: nice!
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2018-04-07T02:59:44Z 
2018-04-07T02:59:44Z names: ccl-logbot cemerick_ damke Menche siraben cortisol acarrico rotty ertes klovett jcowan vicenteH khisanth_ C-Keen jonaslund pierpa_ M_D_K epony terpri X-Scale dsp oleo tessier cky dmiles m1dnight_ jim tokik danly GreaseMonkey ketralnis leppie pie_ nulquen Labu cmaloney amoe kjak aeth larsen plll[m] happy_gnu[m] cross mbakke M-krsiehl cmatei cgay DerGuteMoritz em r0kc4t elly lpsmith groovy2shoes zmt00 ByronJohnson cornett arbv wasamasa nuxdie_ cibs_
2018-04-07T02:59:44Z names: kbtr_ eagleflo defanor Zipheir bigfondue webshinra averell copec kori DGASAU amz3 h11 Hijiri fadein SirDayBat gnomon ozzloy stux|work cromachina_ pilcrow clog zacts hive-mind spectrumgomas[m] davexunit pflanze ArneBab_ vyzo micmus sbauman blt pchrist joast hugo jp markx[m] DeeEff ArthurAGleckler[ eatonphil Kooda willghatch[m] Kryo ineiros LeoNerd fizzie alphor dan64 mg- bmansurov ecraven nckx niklasl mrm yosafbridge Kkiro gwatt dpk XTL foof drot
2018-04-07T02:59:44Z names: tolja ijp-znc szgyg mario-goulart fgudin balkamos aoh stamourv fiddlerwoaroof weinholt qu1j0t3 peschkaj snw stephe kilimanjaro Riastradh bheesham terrorjack lloda kjeldahl mats weltung samth exit70 manumanumanu duncanm fowlduck physpi hook54321a ohama ggherdov michaelmeep_ Duns_Scrotus akkad wingo stux16777216Away stailin ELLIOTTCABLE kwmiebach rjungemann jyc greghendershott profan ft evhan asumu ghostyy gabot PyroLagus abbe ventonegro `micro
2018-04-07T02:59:44Z names: jrdnull cjh` GGMethos gko Blkt equalsraf z0d pyro- snits_ eMBee catern carc
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2018-04-07T03:47:50Z siraben: Zipheir: Thanks.
2018-04-07T03:48:36Z siraben: Zipheir: It's surprisingly simple to do
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2018-04-07T03:59:10Z Zipheir: siraben: I think the register machine approach will get pretty painful in C, however.
2018-04-07T04:03:39Z Zipheir: siraben: Loading/storing everything into global C variables sort of defeats the purpose of compiling to a high-level (i.e. not assembly) language.
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2018-04-07T05:22:45Z duncanm: any Chicken users here?
2018-04-07T05:22:53Z duncanm: does it define a thing called 'any?'
2018-04-07T05:29:07Z siraben: Zipheir: Yeah, I now need to write a Scheme to Register machine compiler, which needs to be compiled to a register machine language in C, then to x86
2018-04-07T05:29:38Z siraben: Zipheir: I'll go for native C code instead, because that's easier
2018-04-07T05:30:08Z siraben: Compiling Scheme to C natively*
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2018-04-07T05:46:04Z Zipheir: siraben: Cool.
2018-04-07T05:47:24Z Zipheir: duncanm: Chicken has any via the srfi-1 egg.
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2018-04-07T05:55:42Z duncanm: Thanks Zipheir, I found what I was looking for
2018-04-07T06:01:45Z siraben: Zipheir: Could I simply just treat all variables as their own stack? When I have an internal define or let, the definition would just be pushed onto the corresponding variable stack, and when I leave the scope the topmost element is popped
2018-04-07T06:02:13Z siraben: In that sense the environment would just be the topmost element of all the variables
2018-04-07T06:02:19Z siraben: i.e. lexical scoping
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2018-04-07T06:26:56Z Zipheir: Oh, was that 'any?', not 'any'? In that case I've never heard of it. :)
2018-04-07T06:28:48Z Zipheir: siraben: That sounds like a weird sort of frame discipline that would probably be nightmarish to debug.
2018-04-07T06:30:27Z Zipheir: siraben: The Scheme->C paper (which somebody linked on this channel, I can't remember who) mentions associating each procedure with a 'display' structure containing all local bindings for that proc.
2018-04-07T06:30:36Z Zipheir: siraben: http://www.hpl.hp.com/techreports/Compaq-DEC/WRL-89-1.pdf
2018-04-07T06:34:21Z Zipheir: siraben: I haven't studied the gruesome details, but it seems like a decent C-ish way of doing it.
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2018-04-07T06:44:05Z siraben: Zipheir: Thanks for the resource. I gtg now
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2018-04-07T09:05:29Z ecraven: Does any scheme or srfi have read-s8, read-u16, etc? Any plans for r7rs-large jcowan?
2018-04-07T09:06:05Z vyzo: gerbil has some of those for raw devices :)
2018-04-07T09:06:13Z vyzo: for buffers actually
2018-04-07T09:06:22Z vyzo: read-u16/s6/u32/s32
2018-04-07T09:06:26Z vyzo: they are very common
2018-04-07T09:07:00Z vyzo: at least for the kind of programming that i do :)
2018-04-07T09:08:34Z ecraven: I'd love to have them standardized. Maybe also read-uint etc. to interface with C
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2018-04-07T09:21:38Z ecraven: also read and write single and double float ;)
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2018-04-07T09:22:12Z ecraven: and bytevector-..-ref
2018-04-07T09:22:55Z ecraven: all of these can be implemented on top of r7rs-small, though I'm not sure how well the float ones would work :-/
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2018-04-07T09:26:05Z vyzo: the float ones will probably need some C to be efficient
2018-04-07T09:26:18Z vyzo: just cast the memory buffer
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2018-04-07T09:55:26Z ecraven: indeed, I'm not even sure it *can* be implemented portably
2018-04-07T09:55:40Z ecraven: can you "recalculate" the value of a floating point number exactly from its mantissa and exponent?
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2018-04-07T09:57:38Z vyzo: tricky business :)
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2018-04-07T11:08:48Z xaotuk: Did anyone of you came to use Scheme with Common Lisp background and experience? I use CL for years and I loved some simplicity and elegance of examples I found about Scheme, I'm very curious to use it too.
2018-04-07T11:09:34Z xaotuk: What were your experiences when you switched?
2018-04-07T11:12:42Z vyzo: xaotuk: gerbil caters well to CL refugees
2018-04-07T11:12:45Z vyzo: we have a few :)
2018-04-07T11:14:55Z xaotuk: vyzo: Oh, another Scheme :) Adding it to collection of known implementeations :)
2018-04-07T11:15:07Z xaotuk: Hard to pick one to start with, thanks :)
2018-04-07T11:17:29Z xaotuk: On first glance, it looks very non standard.
2018-04-07T11:18:11Z vyzo: it is, but it also supports r7rs if you want standrd scheme
2018-04-07T11:19:32Z xaotuk: I still don't know what I want. Just got curiousity to learn more.
2018-04-07T11:21:29Z xaotuk: So it is your collection of extensions you built over the years. Nice work :)
2018-04-07T11:21:38Z vyzo: yeah, lots of stuff honed over time
2018-04-07T11:21:47Z vyzo: it's very much scheme of course
2018-04-07T11:21:53Z vyzo: but it's closer to racket than standard scheme
2018-04-07T11:22:03Z vyzo: it has gambit performance characteristics however
2018-04-07T11:22:06Z vyzo: which are pretty good :)
2018-04-07T11:22:22Z xaotuk: It makes me a litle bit dizzy from all options I have
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2018-04-07T11:43:03Z manumanumanu: xaotuk: you will go around for some time and sooner or later you will settle for one scheme. gerbil seems nice. it gives you a lot out of the box.
2018-04-07T11:43:34Z manumanumanu: or at least, that is how it was for me and some of my friends
2018-04-07T11:45:00Z xaotuk: manumanumanu: Thank you!
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2018-04-07T11:52:25Z manumanumanu: xaotuk: apart from the module stuff gerbil doesn't seem to provide much that you can't get in a "regular" scheme. The standard library seems quite nice though.
2018-04-07T11:53:17Z manumanumanu: with apologies to vyzo. I don't mean to in any way diminish your effort. gerbil is impressive!
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2018-04-07T11:56:20Z vyzo: no offense taken :)
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2018-04-07T12:07:31Z vyzo: manumanumanu: a couple of important things you don't usually find in other schemes are the object system and actors
2018-04-07T12:08:00Z vyzo: couple thta with the module system (and executables of course) and you have a language that is more suitable for larger modular programs
2018-04-07T12:08:30Z vyzo: and of course noone will stop you from writing vanilla scheme in gerbil :)
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2018-04-07T12:36:41Z duncanm: Morning
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2018-04-07T12:57:48Z jcowan: ecraven: srfi 56 for binary I/O
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2018-04-07T13:06:18Z xaotuk: manumanumanu, vyzo : For me, the basic thing is to switch the mindset.
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2018-04-07T16:41:15Z ecraven: jcowan: nice, but the names don't quite match what r7rs has now
2018-04-07T16:41:40Z ecraven: jcowan: did you plan to include that for standardisation? would you be open to a possible new srfi?
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2018-04-07T19:10:19Z jcowan: ecraven: A new SRFI (with support for complex binary I/O as well) would be excellent
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2018-04-07T19:40:03Z ecraven: jcowan: complex as in structs?
2018-04-07T19:40:28Z jcowan: complex as in complex numbers
2018-04-07T19:40:40Z jcowan: a struct of {real, imaginary}
2018-04-07T19:41:41Z ecraven: complex numbers binary io?
2018-04-07T19:43:07Z vyzo: who cares about that? :)
2018-04-07T19:43:30Z vyzo: i mean, why would you ever want to do complex number binary i/o?
2018-04-07T19:43:35Z vyzo: there is nothing that talks this
2018-04-07T19:44:31Z ecraven: Fortran maybe?
2018-04-07T19:45:45Z ecraven: I'm not opposed, some schemes have c32/c64 vectors in srfi-4
2018-04-07T19:48:05Z vyzo: i think it's just bloat
2018-04-07T19:49:41Z jcowan: Fortran and Common Lisp, definitely
2018-04-07T19:49:58Z jcowan: transmitting floats in text form is very inefficient
2018-04-07T19:51:03Z vyzo: i am not arguing for floats
2018-04-07T19:51:12Z jcowan: also: C, C++, Go, Python, Ruby, OCaml, Haskell, and many Java libs
2018-04-07T19:51:18Z ecraven: jcowan: are there complex formats that are not just two floats?
2018-04-07T19:51:28Z ecraven: so you could just build a read-c64 from twice read-f64
2018-04-07T19:51:32Z jcowan: There are.  Chicken e.g. supports exact complex numbers
2018-04-07T19:52:01Z jcowan: But I/Oing them other than in text is probably not important, as people who use complex numbers almost always use inexact ones.
2018-04-07T19:52:05Z vyzo: the point is that there is no _standard_ way to read/write complex numbers that are useful ones
2018-04-07T19:52:23Z vyzo: for integer and floats there are standard ways to write them
2018-04-07T19:52:29Z vyzo: and you need them to talk network protocols etc
2018-04-07T19:52:30Z jcowan: The real float + imaginary float representation is as standard as can be
2018-04-07T19:52:35Z jcowan: everyone uses it
2018-04-07T19:52:39Z vyzo: you can just do two writes
2018-04-07T19:52:44Z jcowan: Of course you can
2018-04-07T19:52:53Z vyzo: there is no standard binary format for complex numbers though
2018-04-07T19:53:04Z vyzo: and it's just plainly wrong to invent one for the purposes of an srfi
2018-04-07T19:53:52Z jcowan: If I were doing so, it would be, but as I'm not, it isn't, contrariwise.
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2018-04-07T19:55:54Z pierpa: would be possible to put fasl-write and fasl-read in the standard? (perhaps called binary- or fast-)
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2018-04-07T19:56:51Z pierpa: I mean, not a portable format. Only readable by the same implementation which writes it.
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2018-04-07T19:59:14Z pierpa: or even, only fasl-write, and standard read could read it. As Chez does.
2018-04-07T20:00:17Z jcowan: What would it mean?
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2018-04-07T20:01:18Z pierpa: ah, no. In old version there was no fasl-read. There is in new versions. It means this https://www.scheme.com/csug8/io.html#./io:h15
2018-04-07T20:02:45Z pierpa: Implementations not willing to make the effort can implement it simply using write
2018-04-07T20:03:13Z jcowan nods
2018-04-07T20:03:32Z jcowan: How portable would they have to be?
2018-04-07T20:03:55Z jcowan: IOW, portable within a single program only?  Portable within an implementation on a specific hardware type?  Portable within an implementation?
2018-04-07T20:04:42Z pierpa: within a single version of the same implementation as a minimum
2018-04-07T20:04:51Z pierpa: then, the more, the better
2018-04-07T20:05:13Z jcowan: Then e.g. if it were binary you would have to do endian conversions on big-endian CPUs
2018-04-07T20:05:21Z pierpa: ah, yes, one version, on the same hardware
2018-04-07T20:05:27Z pierpa: as a minimum
2018-04-07T20:05:41Z jcowan: okay, so e.g. symbols could not be written as an address
2018-04-07T20:06:11Z pierpa: perhapsI shouild check how Chez does it
2018-04-07T20:06:27Z pierpa: as a minimum, numbers are written in a binary format
2018-04-07T20:06:41Z pierpa: vectors and lists can prepend their length
2018-04-07T20:06:57Z jcowan: and strings
2018-04-07T20:07:01Z pierpa: yes
2018-04-07T20:07:40Z jcowan: SRFI 56 provides for encoding numbers using ASN.1 BER
2018-04-07T20:07:49Z pierpa: ah
2018-04-07T20:07:53Z jcowan: thus allowing portable {fix,big}nums
2018-04-07T20:08:18Z pierpa: is SRFI 56 scheduled to be included in r7rs big?
2018-04-07T20:08:48Z vyzo: ugh, asn.1
2018-04-07T20:10:56Z jcowan: pierpa: I'm hoping that ecraven will write a replacement
2018-04-07T20:10:58Z jcowan: if not I may do so
2018-04-07T20:11:06Z pierpa: ok
2018-04-07T20:11:18Z jcowan: that will interoperate well with srfi 4
2018-04-07T20:11:35Z jcowan: vyzo: I agree in general, but as a way of writing binary bignums it's quite reasonable
2018-04-07T20:11:59Z vyzo: yeah, 7bit limps are reasonable
2018-04-07T20:12:44Z pierpa: does ASN.1 works as a kind of hyper utf-8? (for integers)
2018-04-07T20:12:45Z jcowan: Not as an internal representation, no
2018-04-07T20:14:33Z wasamasa: pierpa: that's not its purpose at all
2018-04-07T20:15:28Z pierpa: what?
2018-04-07T20:15:52Z pierpa: Let me rephrase my question...
2018-04-07T20:16:15Z wasamasa: it's like asking whether XML works as a kind of hyper s-expressions
2018-04-07T20:16:32Z wasamasa: yes, it's about as terrible to deal with
2018-04-07T20:16:57Z pierpa: I asked if ASN.1 encodes integers using octets with, say, one bits at 0 mening the number is not finished, and the same bit 1 meaning the number is finished.
2018-04-07T20:17:16Z pierpa: using a little common sense could have been understood in this way?
2018-04-07T20:17:22Z vyzo: they encode 7bit limps, with the high bit set if there are more limps
2018-04-07T20:17:22Z wasamasa: lol
2018-04-07T20:17:42Z pierpa: ty, vyzo, that-s what I asked about
2018-04-07T20:18:26Z wasamasa: um, doesn't it depend on which of the dozen representations you pick?
2018-04-07T20:19:30Z wasamasa: some use padding, some don't
2018-04-07T20:19:58Z jcowan: DER though is unique
2018-04-07T20:21:24Z wasamasa: "Despite its perceived problems, BER is a popular format for transmitting data, particularly in systems with different native data encodings."
2018-04-07T20:22:30Z jcowan: The main issue with SRFI 52 is that it works only with single items, not with specialized arrays
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2018-04-07T20:22:38Z jcowan: the latter are much more important most of the time
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2018-04-07T20:24:54Z jcowan: btw, vyzo, s/limps/limbs/g
2018-04-07T20:25:07Z vyzo: oops, sorry!
2018-04-07T20:25:12Z vyzo: hehe
2018-04-07T20:25:16Z vyzo: cool typo though
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2018-04-07T20:31:51Z pierpa: another point of view: https://docs.racket-lang.org/reference/fasl.html
2018-04-07T20:33:20Z jcowan: 7-bit limbs do indeed limp
2018-04-07T20:33:36Z jcowan: but they do deal with endianism issues nicely
2018-04-07T20:34:16Z jcowan: the historic dc and bc calculators use base-100 representation, which wastes only a few more bits but makes conversion to/from text easy
2018-04-07T20:37:12Z jcowan: 6.64-bit limbs, more or less
2018-04-07T20:39:41Z jcowan: ISTM that fasl formats are only good for compactification, not for interchange
2018-04-07T20:40:36Z jcowan: and I suspect that general text compression compactifies better, although it does cost more cycles
2018-04-07T20:41:28Z pierpa: mostly for fastification of reading & writing
2018-04-07T20:44:09Z TCZ: how to use for example @ and $ instead ( )
2018-04-07T20:44:27Z pierpa: Another point of view, with a description of how they implement it: https://marcomaggi.github.io/docs/vicare-scheme.html/fasl-format.html
2018-04-07T20:45:04Z pierpa: TCZ: you can't do that *portably* as far as I know. So you must say what implementation are using.
2018-04-07T20:45:55Z wasamasa: TCZ: why?
2018-04-07T20:46:14Z TCZ: because its cool
2018-04-07T20:46:17Z wasamasa: lol
2018-04-07T20:46:19Z TCZ: ..
2018-04-07T20:46:26Z wasamasa: low-effort troll detected
2018-04-07T20:46:27Z TCZ: in racket
2018-04-07T20:46:30Z TCZ: or r5rs racket
2018-04-07T20:46:41Z TCZ: me not trell
2018-04-07T20:46:58Z TCZ: and you said same thing
2018-04-07T20:47:04Z TCZ: few days ago about me
2018-04-07T20:47:27Z wasamasa: "How do I use <programming language> in a way not befitting it?"
2018-04-07T20:47:53Z TCZ: ok i had good reason but dont remember now
2018-04-07T20:48:01Z TCZ: i had this idea late at night
2018-04-07T20:48:05Z wasamasa: reminds me of this one picture where someone formatted java code as if it were python
2018-04-07T20:49:02Z wasamasa: #define @ (
2018-04-07T20:49:02Z wasamasa: #define $ )
2018-04-07T20:50:39Z TCZ: really? :O
2018-04-07T20:50:52Z wasamasa: you've never programmed C, did you
2018-04-07T20:51:03Z TCZ: only c++
2018-04-07T20:51:31Z wasamasa: unfortunately this doesn't work
2018-04-07T20:51:44Z TCZ: so why you write htis
2018-04-07T20:52:08Z wasamasa: one counters trolling by more trolling
2018-04-07T20:52:32Z TCZ: yes this will make world better for sure
2018-04-07T20:57:49Z Zipheir: Broken paren keys, TCZ?
2018-04-07T20:58:24Z wasamasa: if your paren keys are broken, fix your keyboard/os/editor/...
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2018-04-07T21:00:10Z jcowan: Yet another gavino.
2018-04-07T21:00:43Z wasamasa: gavino was more amusing though
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2018-04-07T21:01:11Z TCZ: Racket is a general-purpose programming language as well as the world’s first ecosystem for developing and deploying new languages. Make your dream language, or use one of the dozens already available,
2018-04-07T21:01:17Z TCZ: maybe its my dream to have
2018-04-07T21:01:21Z TCZ: diferent parens
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2018-04-07T21:02:13Z vyzo: you can use < >
2018-04-07T21:02:20Z vyzo: even better, use < > and </>
2018-04-07T21:02:36Z wasamasa: we really need a xml syntax for our code, don't we?
2018-04-07T21:02:40Z vyzo: :)
2018-04-07T21:02:56Z TCZ: in racket doesnt work only () {} and []
2018-04-07T21:03:14Z TCZ: you know what would be cool
2018-04-07T21:03:16Z wasamasa: I have my doubts TCZ will make it happen though
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2018-04-07T21:03:22Z TCZ: begin and end instead of parens
2018-04-07T21:03:26Z wasamasa: lol
2018-04-07T21:03:30Z TCZ: endendendend
2018-04-07T21:03:32Z pierpa: but if he wants fast running progs he must chenge them to { }
2018-04-07T21:03:38Z TCZ: it would  be amazing
2018-04-07T21:03:39Z pierpa: *change
2018-04-07T21:04:01Z wasamasa: TCZ: you're kind of late: https://beautifulracket.com/basic/intro.html
2018-04-07T21:05:36Z wasamasa: anyway, begin/end can be done with cpp
2018-04-07T21:08:37Z TCZ: i mean scheme is supposed to be flexible etc but you cant do simple macro like in c
2018-04-07T21:08:52Z TCZ: only complicated syntax rules thing
2018-04-07T21:08:56Z TCZ: why  not simple define
2018-04-07T21:09:16Z wasamasa: you do realize that this is not part of C but cpp?
2018-04-07T21:09:16Z jcowan: Because "simple" macros have very complex and hard to predict effects
2018-04-07T21:09:25Z wasamasa: cpp is a separate program
2018-04-07T21:09:30Z wasamasa: you can use it with scheme if you insist
2018-04-07T21:09:45Z wasamasa: but you'll find you can't even do #define $ (
2018-04-07T21:10:01Z wasamasa: it's completely inadequate for anything other than text substitutions
2018-04-07T21:13:52Z vyzo: you understimate cpp
2018-04-07T21:13:56Z vyzo: see gambit.h :)
2018-04-07T21:19:47Z wasamasa: http://ix.io/17gg
2018-04-07T21:19:52Z wasamasa: plt-r5rs <(cpp test.scm.in | sed '/^#/d')
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2018-04-07T21:21:24Z wasamasa: it will probably break the instant you introduce something that can't be tokenized by cpp
2018-04-07T21:21:29Z wasamasa: like, an unmatched single quote
2018-04-07T21:21:37Z pierpa: TCZ: in racket you can do it. Have you looked at the link provided above?  Case closed. Move on.
2018-04-07T21:21:40Z wasamasa: TCZ: tell me, is this what you wanted?
2018-04-07T21:22:18Z wasamasa: this beautifulracket thing is nicely written, if I were actually using racket, I'd be tempted to buy it
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2018-04-07T21:27:48Z jcowan: wasamasa: http://conal.net/blog/posts/the-c-language-is-purely-functional
2018-04-07T21:33:09Z pierpa: makes sense
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2018-04-07T21:53:28Z Zipheir: Funny article.
2018-04-07T21:53:44Z Zipheir: #define foo bar >>= #ifdef foo ... #endif
2018-04-07T21:54:55Z Zipheir: At this rate there'll be a FORTRAN monad next.
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2018-04-07T22:07:34Z Zipheir: But of course the point is that any language -> language transformer is a pure function.
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2018-04-08T07:45:43Z ecraven: oh, srfi-56 was withdrawn.. so on to read all the discussion archive ;)
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2018-04-08T07:50:14Z vyzo: back when there used to be a lot of discussion around srfis :)
2018-04-08T07:50:30Z vyzo: some of the recent srfis have very little discussion or review :(
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2018-04-08T07:52:01Z ecraven: I haven't been active regarding that myself.. I've mostly just followed the discussion emails
2018-04-08T07:52:48Z vyzo: yeah, i am guilty as charger too... mostly lurking
2018-04-08T07:52:56Z vyzo: *charged
2018-04-08T07:53:06Z ecraven: vyzo: how does gerbil handle endianness in binary io?
2018-04-08T07:53:15Z vyzo: for the read/write procs?
2018-04-08T07:53:20Z vyzo: why, network byte order of course :)
2018-04-08T07:53:20Z ecraven: aye
2018-04-08T07:53:32Z ecraven: I mean, how do you specify which endianness you want?
2018-04-08T07:53:41Z vyzo: you don't, it's just network byte order
2018-04-08T07:53:48Z vyzo: but I could add some spec for little endian I guess
2018-04-08T07:53:53Z ecraven: so you can't use them to read other endianness :-/
2018-04-08T07:53:56Z vyzo: it might be useful to read pack structs
2018-04-08T07:54:15Z vyzo: I use them for network i/o, and in that land it's standard to use big endian
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2018-04-08T07:54:40Z vyzo: although there do exist braindead protocols that might do little endian, like mysql's wire protocol
2018-04-08T07:54:52Z ecraven: ideally, I'd want some way to map memory into a bytevector port, then use the binary i/o srfi to "read" from that, maybe even having something like (define-binary-record ....) where you specify which readers to use, so you can have direct access to C structs
2018-04-08T07:55:02Z vyzo: right, that's the packed struct reader
2018-04-08T07:55:07Z vyzo: that could be very useful indeed
2018-04-08T07:55:20Z ecraven: vyzo: many file formats (elf for example) (can) use little endian
2018-04-08T07:55:35Z vyzo: agreed
2018-04-08T07:55:39Z ecraven: I'd just like to have *one* set of binary i/o procedures that can be used for everything from networking to files to memory
2018-04-08T07:55:53Z vyzo: optional argument that specifies endianness perhaps?
2018-04-08T07:56:00Z ecraven: so it seems that I'll need to pass the endianness to each and every read/write procedure
2018-04-08T07:56:11Z vyzo: you could use a parameter
2018-04-08T07:56:17Z ecraven: which puts the onus on the compiler to optimize that
2018-04-08T07:56:23Z vyzo: yes,  it would be slower than passing the optional agument
2018-04-08T07:56:27Z ecraven: a parameter would make optimization for the compiler even harder
2018-04-08T07:56:30Z vyzo: compiler won't optimize the parameter
2018-04-08T07:57:24Z ecraven: well, even something like (let ((endianness 'little)) (read-u16 port endianness)) isn't trivial to optimize (more so if the endianness is passed as a parameter, not directly in the let form)
2018-04-08T07:57:46Z ecraven: I'll think about this today, have to go now, but probably an optional argument is best
2018-04-08T07:58:21Z vyzo: you could have specialized procedures for specific endianness, but it's ugly
2018-04-08T07:58:38Z ecraven: vyzo: that makes a reader that can process both endianness-es really ugly to write
2018-04-08T07:58:45Z vyzo: agreed
2018-04-08T07:58:47Z ecraven: you could have both, specialized and non-specialized, but I don't like that
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2018-04-08T08:00:36Z ecraven: also, fortran definitely has complex as 2 single or 2 double floats. guile supports c32 / c64 in an extension of srfi-4, that seems useful in this context
2018-04-08T08:00:50Z ecraven: probably no such standardized way for bignums or rationals
2018-04-08T08:00:57Z ecraven: or arbitrary precision floats
2018-04-08T08:02:42Z vyzo: arbitrary precision floats is overkill
2018-04-08T08:03:01Z vyzo: and rationals... is there any other langauge in use that actually supports them?
2018-04-08T08:04:13Z weinholt: here's my approach to pack/unpack, for r6rs: https://github.com/weinholt/struct-pack
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2018-04-08T08:21:01Z ecraven: weinholt: thank you!
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2018-04-08T08:24:10Z vyzo: that's pretty cool
2018-04-08T08:25:39Z ecraven: seems to me this would be built based on the primitives the srfi would provide ;)
2018-04-08T08:25:48Z weinholt: thanks, i've found it very useful while implementing network protocols and file formats
2018-04-08T08:25:57Z ecraven: it looks nice and compact
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2018-04-08T08:33:58Z vyzo: I think I want to port this to gerbil :)
2018-04-08T08:34:19Z ecraven: vyzo: wait until we have this srfi, then build it portably on top!
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2018-04-08T08:35:16Z ecraven: can an srfi export a binding already defined in (scheme base)? like read-u8 *with* an endianness parameter?
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2018-04-08T08:35:46Z vyzo: sure why not?
2018-04-08T08:35:54Z vyzo: although some schemes may not like it
2018-04-08T08:36:21Z vyzo: but does read-u8 need an endianness parameter?
2018-04-08T08:36:36Z ecraven: for consistency's sake, and to make macros that expand to read-.. work, it should take that argument (and ignore it ;)
2018-04-08T08:36:37Z vyzo: a byte is a byte
2018-04-08T08:37:01Z ecraven: yes, but if I pass the reader function as a parameter, I don't *know* if it takes an endianness or not
2018-04-08T08:37:47Z vyzo: good point
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2018-04-08T08:49:23Z ecraven: also, f80 might be useful, given C's long double
2018-04-08T08:50:08Z ecraven: and of course fortran actually support f128
2018-04-08T08:53:58Z vyzo: interop with fortran is pretty low on the list :)
2018-04-08T08:54:17Z vyzo: besides, where are you going to get 128-bit floats in scheme land?
2018-04-08T08:54:42Z siraben: Any heavy Guile programmers here?  How is the C interop?
2018-04-08T08:57:13Z aeth: This Wikipedia template lists quite a few floating point formats: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template:Floating-point
2018-04-08T08:58:21Z aeth: Unfortunately, there is no one standard for 80-bit (or 40-bit): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extended_precision
2018-04-08T09:00:31Z weinholt: siraben, there is also #guile if you don't get an answer here
2018-04-08T09:01:31Z siraben: I see. Thanks.
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2018-04-08T09:26:10Z ecraven: vyzo: the point of interop with fortran isn't actually fortran, but all the libraries that have the same API
2018-04-08T09:26:18Z ecraven: lots of numeric stuff
2018-04-08T09:26:36Z ecraven: aeth: thanks
2018-04-08T09:27:00Z vyzo: the question stands though
2018-04-08T09:27:09Z vyzo: how are you going to repr 128 bit floats in scheme land?
2018-04-08T09:27:20Z vyzo: or even 80bit ones
2018-04-08T09:27:22Z ecraven: yea, that is an excellent point ;) some problem with f80
2018-04-08T09:27:39Z ecraven: though you might argue that read-f80 should just fail, if your scheme doesn't support them
2018-04-08T09:27:48Z vyzo: ugh
2018-04-08T09:27:50Z vyzo: that's ugly
2018-04-08T09:27:56Z vyzo: you'll get code that may or may not work
2018-04-08T09:28:02Z ecraven: other options?
2018-04-08T09:28:03Z vyzo: so you either end up not using them
2018-04-08T09:28:13Z vyzo: or you end up having software that fails randomly depending on the scheme
2018-04-08T09:28:20Z ecraven: well, you'd only use them to interface with C libraries that use long doubles, I'd imagine
2018-04-08T09:28:22Z vyzo: probably not worth implementing them at all
2018-04-08T09:28:52Z ecraven: I don't agree.. there are Schemes that don't support the full numeric tower, and still we write code that uses complex's
2018-04-08T09:28:57Z ecraven: complexes?
2018-04-08T09:29:46Z vyzo: cpxnums :)
2018-04-08T09:29:57Z ecraven: chicken by default doesn't have bignums, iirc, that is much worse than failing on read-f80, imho
2018-04-08T09:30:05Z vyzo: ouch
2018-04-08T09:30:11Z vyzo: yeah, lack of bignums can be hindering
2018-04-08T09:30:25Z ecraven: it silently overflows and truncates
2018-04-08T09:30:34Z ecraven: there's some egg or module you can import to get the full tower
2018-04-08T09:30:36Z vyzo: ooooh, robustness!
2018-04-08T09:30:52Z vyzo: i love it when software just silently does the wrong thing :)
2018-04-08T09:30:56Z ecraven: not blaming chicken, just saying that we are not CL yet, where you *can* count on every implementation implementing everything
2018-04-08T09:30:56Z vyzo: as an entomologist
2018-04-08T09:31:32Z ecraven: in the end, read-u64 has the same problem, I don't think any scheme has 64 bit fixnums
2018-04-08T09:31:45Z ecraven: there just is a portable option there, namely bignums
2018-04-08T09:32:09Z ecraven: for floats, I'm not sure.. but I'd like to at least have the procedures, *if* any scheme implements them ;)
2018-04-08T09:32:14Z ecraven: I'd love to, if I ever get that far
2018-04-08T09:46:25Z wasamasa: at least that's fixed in the upcoming major release
2018-04-08T09:46:32Z wasamasa: CHICKEN 5 has proper bignum integration
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2018-04-08T13:20:40Z jcowan_: vyzo: Exact rational numbers are available in Common Lisp, Python, Pure, Haskell, Julia, C++, C#
2018-04-08T13:21:41Z jcowan_: also Smalltalk and Ruby
2018-04-08T13:22:59Z jcowan_: ecraven: Chicken 4 doesn't silently overflow integers: they become floats
2018-04-08T13:23:19Z jcowan_: (/ 3 4) => 0.75
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2018-04-08T13:23:54Z jcowan_: (expt 2 64) => 1.84467440737096e+19
2018-04-08T13:24:06Z jcowan_: this is conformant R5RS/R7RS behavior
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2018-04-08T15:03:23Z vyzo: jcowan: sure, but do we care about binary i/o for them?
2018-04-08T15:03:32Z vyzo: them rationals i mean
2018-04-08T15:04:07Z vyzo: again, there is probably no standard representation for them that could be useful in interacting with other programs
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2018-04-08T15:12:35Z pierpa: It is useful for interacting  between different instances of the same program. Say, for writing a lump of data to disk, and reading it back later, as quickly as possible
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2018-04-08T15:25:13Z pierpa: And since all implementations which have a compiler must have already this functionality somewhere in their bowels to save the results of their compilations, it worth to expose this functionality in a standardized way
2018-04-08T15:25:33Z pierpa: +is
2018-04-08T15:26:50Z pierpa: s/all/almost all/
2018-04-08T15:30:32Z vyzo: they are almost all invariably different
2018-04-08T15:30:47Z vyzo: so don't hope to gain by exposing that -- tha'ts fasl territory
2018-04-08T15:31:40Z pierpa: Of course
2018-04-08T15:33:55Z pierpa: I think there's been some hybridization between the fasl and srfi 56 topics
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2018-04-08T17:19:06Z jcowan: I agree that an external portable representation of rationals doesn't make much sense.
2018-04-08T17:19:23Z jcowan: Inexact complex numbers are another matter
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2018-04-08T17:37:32Z ecraven: jcowan: I'll include c32 and c64 (though I wonder whether c64 and c128 wouldn't be better names)
2018-04-08T17:37:48Z jcowan: c64 and c128 are better names
2018-04-08T17:38:24Z ecraven: to me they certainly are, I just wasn't sure anyone else felt the same
2018-04-08T17:40:20Z vyzo: hrm
2018-04-08T17:40:31Z vyzo: i think c32 says complex inexact of f32's
2018-04-08T17:40:43Z ecraven: vyzo: to me, that says complex with total size of 32 bits
2018-04-08T17:40:44Z vyzo: i would expect c128 to mean 128-bit floats
2018-04-08T17:40:52Z ecraven: but that's probably exactly the problem we are facing
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2018-04-08T17:46:37Z ecraven: how do you feel about a macro like (define-binary-record foo (make-foo ...) foo? (int-field foo-int-field set-foo-int-field! read-u32 write-u32) ...)  (or some simpler way of specifying a read/writable binary "struct")
2018-04-08T17:46:45Z ecraven: is that out of scope for a basic binary io srfi?
2018-04-08T17:47:16Z ecraven: I'd like to standardize something like this, but it would have to handle at least C struct and union to be useful, and that's not very basic any longer
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2018-04-08T17:48:16Z vyzo: i think these are two separate srfis
2018-04-08T17:49:55Z ecraven: I'd tend to agree
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2018-04-08T17:50:32Z dieggsy: is there any convention for naming a "special" mathematical operator? For a normal function, i'd use function* but for something like +, +* doesn't seem to make much sense
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2018-04-08T17:51:05Z ecraven: if you're lucky, your scheme supports unicode, that has tons of special mathematical operators
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2018-04-08T17:51:21Z ecraven: I've had some success with using APL symbols, so all the normal operators should work fine ;)
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2018-04-08T17:51:54Z dieggsy: ecraven: i mean if you specifically defined a special + function, would you just prefix it instead of adding a *
2018-04-08T17:52:06Z ecraven: special in what way?
2018-04-08T17:52:15Z dieggsy: ecraven: in my case, it's generic
2018-04-08T17:52:28Z dieggsy: so will add vector + number just fine
2018-04-08T17:52:57Z ecraven: then it should replace the normal + (which is already generalized, though not extensible)
2018-04-08T17:53:35Z ecraven: I've called things v+, v-, etc. for pure vector functions
2018-04-08T17:53:49Z ecraven: but in the end, it would be great if Scheme's generalized arithmetic were extensible
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2018-04-08T18:13:01Z vyzo: that's asking too much of the underlying implementation
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2018-04-08T18:15:03Z ecraven: dylan supported this, but no idea whether it ever efficiently implemented it
2018-04-08T18:15:10Z ecraven: binary+ was a generic function that you could extend with your own methods
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2018-04-08T18:21:05Z vyzo: well
2018-04-08T18:21:11Z vyzo: you could have a generic that is not named +
2018-04-08T18:21:13Z vyzo: say binary+
2018-04-08T18:21:27Z vyzo: and then have the compiler inline the usual integrations with fallback to the generic
2018-04-08T18:21:33Z ecraven: in dylan, + is a method (like a function, *not* a generic)
2018-04-08T18:21:38Z vyzo: but it's probably not terribly efficient
2018-04-08T18:21:58Z ecraven: yea, thus it would be interesting if there was a solution to the efficiency problem here in dylan
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2018-04-08T19:33:27Z jcowan: ecraven: for general structs,https://github.com/TaylanUB/scheme-bytestructures is a win IMO
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2018-04-08T20:00:37Z parkers: Is there anyone here that can help me figure out what I'm doing wrong with some code I'm writing?
2018-04-08T20:01:17Z parkers: It's probably a simple error, since I'm just learning Scheme.
2018-04-08T20:01:36Z pierpa: it depends strongly on the kind and quantity of the code
2018-04-08T20:01:54Z pierpa: in this case, sure
2018-04-08T20:02:00Z parkers: Awesome.
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2018-04-08T20:02:29Z parkers: I'm trying to write an algorithm to just take a number and add it to a running total.  But I keep getting #unspecified return errors.
2018-04-08T20:02:41Z parkers: Or object #unspecified is not applicable.
2018-04-08T20:02:43Z pierpa: ok
2018-04-08T20:02:55Z parkers: Should I post the code here or is that bad practice?
2018-04-08T20:03:05Z pierpa: better use a pasteboard somewhere
2018-04-08T20:03:06Z gwatt: pastebin or something similar
2018-04-08T20:03:14Z parkers: Will do, one sec.
2018-04-08T20:03:24Z pierpa: unless the code fits in one line, of course
2018-04-08T20:04:12Z parkers: https://pastebin.com/VqQT7tfw
2018-04-08T20:04:21Z parkers: Nah, it's a few lines.
2018-04-08T20:05:28Z gwatt: parkers: you need a (begin ...) in that first if-branch
2018-04-08T20:05:28Z pierpa: 1. "( (newline" is wrong. You probably forgot a begin there
2018-04-08T20:05:44Z gwatt: also, else isn't a keyword for if
2018-04-08T20:05:49Z gwatt: it's for cond
2018-04-08T20:05:50Z pierpa: see, you got a team of experts :)
2018-04-08T20:06:08Z parkers: I'm using mit-scheme, does that matter?
2018-04-08T20:06:30Z gwatt: nope
2018-04-08T20:06:31Z pierpa: and the "else" is wrong too
2018-04-08T20:06:32Z wasamasa: only if you use specific functionality
2018-04-08T20:06:40Z parkers: Ok, my bad.  I thought else was for either.  :)
2018-04-08T20:07:21Z wasamasa: I recommend studying the R5RS standard, it contains concise summaries of that stuff
2018-04-08T20:07:35Z wasamasa: like, explanations what the different equality procedures are for
2018-04-08T20:07:42Z wasamasa: eq? for example isn't for numbers
2018-04-08T20:07:50Z parkers: Oh, wow ok.
2018-04-08T20:08:09Z parkers: I'll look that up now.  Thanks folks, you rock!
2018-04-08T20:08:41Z wasamasa: it may work for integers, but that would be an implementation detail
2018-04-08T20:08:52Z wasamasa: it would be very unlikely for it to work for floats
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2018-04-08T20:17:11Z jcowan: eq? imo is not a beginner facility
2018-04-08T20:17:41Z jcowan: eqv? and equal? are the best ones to learn
2018-04-08T20:17:57Z gwatt: and of course = for numbers
2018-04-08T20:18:35Z jcowan: equal? serves that purpose
2018-04-08T20:18:54Z jcowan: = goes with string=?, boolean=?, etc.
2018-04-08T20:19:07Z gwatt: (equal? 1 1.0) => #f
2018-04-08T20:19:15Z jcowan: oh, you're right
2018-04-08T20:19:19Z jcowan: wasn't thinking about floats
2018-04-08T20:19:29Z wasamasa: the classic lisps need three equality predicates
2018-04-08T20:19:39Z jcowan: so yes, eqv? (identity), equal? (structural equality), = (numeric equality)
2018-04-08T20:19:52Z jcowan: wasamasa: Rarely is eq? needed for anything
2018-04-08T20:19:55Z wasamasa: clojure did almost fix this but then screwed up = to not work for floats
2018-04-08T20:20:12Z wasamasa: jcowan: eqv?, equal?, =
2018-04-08T20:20:20Z jcowan: oh, okay
2018-04-08T20:20:39Z vyzo: eq? is a very nice word compare operator that can also compare fixnums
2018-04-08T20:20:52Z wasamasa: so, (= 1 1.0) doesn't actually work in clojure
2018-04-08T20:21:27Z pierpa gasps
2018-04-08T20:22:58Z Zipheir: How very PHP-like of them.
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2018-04-08T20:23:52Z wasamasa: there's a bug ticket about it which was declined, you're supposed to use == in this case instead
2018-04-08T20:24:08Z wasamasa: something about = not working across different types, with the exceptions of lists/vectors
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2018-04-08T21:08:27Z duncanm: Hmm
2018-04-08T21:11:48Z qu1j0t3 wouldn't mind if equality on floats didn't work            runz
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2018-04-08T21:14:50Z pierpa: well, then their = is called ==. Anticonventional but not absolutely wrong.
2018-04-08T21:16:52Z wasamasa: it's weird because in practice you just need = there
2018-04-08T21:16:58Z wasamasa: sometimes .equal
2018-04-08T21:18:26Z ecraven: I use eq? for symbols all the time, maybe I should try to relearn that
2018-04-08T21:19:00Z wasamasa: it's like you used equal? only in scheme
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2018-04-08T21:41:21Z Zipheir: '= for ints' seems like it would result in people using == for all general calculations. Why not just get = right and offer a non-standard int-int comparison?
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2018-04-08T21:42:49Z wasamasa: from what I've seen, it's used sparingly as needed
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2018-04-09T03:30:12Z duncanm: what's the right equality predicate for symbols? is it `symbol=?`
2018-04-09T03:30:56Z duncanm: hmm, it's in kawa, but not s48 nor mit-scheme
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2018-04-09T03:37:05Z Zipheir: eqv?
2018-04-09T03:40:37Z Zipheir: Ah, sorry. I don't think there's anything remotely standard like symbol=?
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2018-04-09T03:47:01Z Zipheir: AFAIU symbol equality is only a question in the context of uninterned symbols. Since those aren't standardized, comparing them would be implementation-specific.
2018-04-09T03:47:16Z Zipheir: But I could be totally wrong about that.
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2018-04-09T05:08:30Z ecraven: duncanm: mit will get a lot more r7rs compliant with the next release, the -git version is much better than the last release
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2018-04-09T05:43:50Z duncanm: ecraven: have you been talking to cph?
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2018-04-09T07:17:17Z ecraven: not recently
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2018-04-09T09:28:36Z ayys: Is there a guide to organizing the source tree when working on a scheme project?
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2018-04-09T09:29:50Z ecraven: probably depends on the implementation you use
2018-04-09T09:30:09Z ecraven: I've mostly just put several related .scm files into a directory, but my projects aren't very large
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2018-04-09T09:33:57Z ayys: I see. I am using guile right now, but I'll probably switch to a more platform agnostic scheme since I want my project to work on windows as well
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2018-04-09T13:18:21Z siraben: Is anyone aware of symbolic integration programs in Scheme?
2018-04-09T13:18:53Z siraben: Symbolic differentiation is pretty easy to implement, but I'd love to see how others tackle the problem of integration.
2018-04-09T13:19:17Z jcowan: Differentiation is pretty trivial.  Algebraic simplification is the tricky part
2018-04-09T13:19:57Z siraben: Right, but that's as matter of pattern matching + serach
2018-04-09T13:20:02Z siraben: search*
2018-04-09T13:20:31Z jcowan: http://www.cs.brandeis.edu/~mairson/Courses/cs21b/Lectures/sym-diff.pdf
2018-04-09T13:20:53Z siraben: I haven't seen logic programming (e.g. minikanren) being applied to algebraic manipulation yet, I thought it would be interesting to see if a relational differentiator could become a integrator.
2018-04-09T13:21:13Z siraben: Does brandeis still offer SICP?
2018-04-09T13:21:42Z siraben: jcowan: Yeah, that's the same one as in the textbook.
2018-04-09T13:22:04Z siraben: I'm only aware of a symbolic integrator in Emacs Calc, it's around 1200 lines worth of Emacs Lisp
2018-04-09T13:22:40Z jcowan: siraben: A cool idea
2018-04-09T13:26:58Z siraben: jcowan: The logic programming one?
2018-04-09T13:27:11Z jcowan: yes
2018-04-09T13:27:21Z siraben: Yeah, it makes obvious sense because say, minikanren has complete search
2018-04-09T13:27:31Z siraben: I'll try implementing one
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2018-04-09T13:29:41Z siraben: However, how would it know to do techniques like integration by parts, by substitution and so on? It seems like there's a risk of an infinite loop here.
2018-04-09T13:30:01Z siraben: Because of the recursive nature of the derivative program
2018-04-09T13:34:26Z gwatt: I don't know if this helps your specific case, but minikanren has a =/= constraint that checks for disunion
2018-04-09T13:36:21Z siraben: Right, the disequality operator.
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2018-04-09T14:06:34Z fibration: siraben: if that's good enough for you: maxima is written in common lisp
2018-04-09T14:09:02Z fibration: but maybe just check the references on https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Symbolic_integration
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2018-04-09T14:16:31Z siraben: fibration: There's the https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Risch_algorithm
2018-04-09T14:16:39Z siraben: But "The complete description of the Risch algorithm takes over 100 pages."
2018-04-09T14:17:30Z siraben: I just learned about this beautiful powerset algorithm: https://hastebin.com/wasabepeca.scm
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2018-04-09T14:31:55Z edgar-rft: siraben: with small enough pages the description might be only 100 characters long
2018-04-09T14:56:13Z siraben: edgar-rft: Well,
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2018-04-09T15:55:54Z edgar-rft: siraben: I just was wondering why math folks come up with the most unprecise quantity ever
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2018-04-09T15:58:11Z qu1j0t3: siraben: I though that was _the_ powerset alg :)
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2018-04-09T17:50:16Z ecraven: hm.. would a binary io srfi that defines read-u64 also need u64-ready? and peek-u64?
2018-04-09T17:50:45Z ecraven: I don't think those would even be implementable
2018-04-09T17:50:52Z gwatt: I don't think posix specifies that.
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2018-04-09T17:55:19Z ecraven: foof: would it be ok to take some of the srfi-56 code for a new srfi for binary i/o
2018-04-09T17:59:28Z ecraven: foof: of course keeping the copyright notice and your name
2018-04-09T18:07:55Z jcowan: Of course it is
2018-04-09T18:08:05Z ecraven: good ;)
2018-04-09T18:08:07Z jcowan: plenty of SRFIs are grounded directly on other SRFIs
2018-04-09T18:08:32Z ecraven: should the srfi also include read-uint, read-sshort and so on to read the basic C types on the given platform?
2018-04-09T18:08:49Z ecraven: those are what you really need to actually interface with C :-/
2018-04-09T18:09:01Z jcowan: IMO this SRFI should depend directly on my next SRFI (numeric vectors), because I/Oing a vector is important
2018-04-09T18:09:17Z ecraven: rewriting srfi-4?
2018-04-09T18:09:38Z jcowan: Merging it with SRFI 133
2018-04-09T18:10:16Z ecraven: nice
2018-04-09T18:10:29Z ecraven: so this srfi should also include read/write for numeric vectors?
2018-04-09T18:10:41Z jcowan: and adding the types c64, c128, and u1
2018-04-09T18:11:12Z jcowan: Pace vyzo, I still think c64 and c128 are the right names, because they indicate how many bits a single object occupies
2018-04-09T18:11:34Z ecraven: I'm a bit torn, I can understand the rationale for either ;)
2018-04-09T18:12:33Z ecraven: jcowan: wouldn't we need just *one* read/write procedure for reading/writing any of those vectors? as they are distinct datatypes anyway? or won't they be?
2018-04-09T18:12:54Z jcowan: Note that in SRFI 4, the names f32 and f64 are technically only nominal; the actual requirement is simply that f64 has at least as much precision/range as f32.
2018-04-09T18:13:01Z ecraven: what about u/s128, f80 and f128?
2018-04-09T18:13:06Z ecraven: jcowan: I'd like it if you changed that ;)
2018-04-09T18:13:25Z jcowan: mmm, compilers-to-C may not know how big a float or a double is.
2018-04-09T18:14:07Z jcowan: the C integer types are defined by lower limit: in principle a u8 could be the same size as a u32.
2018-04-09T18:14:34Z jcowan: s/u8/unsigned char/
2018-04-09T18:14:56Z ecraven: hm.. actually, what read-uchar should do is read the ABI size of an `unsigned char' on the executing platform
2018-04-09T18:15:12Z ecraven: I'd love to have these, but should they be a part of this srfi?
2018-04-09T18:15:29Z jcowan: IMO long/ulong is the only one that's actually ambiguous
2018-04-09T18:15:30Z ecraven: sorry to air all these thoughts here, tell me if it is inappropriate
2018-04-09T18:15:47Z ecraven: ambiguous in what way?
2018-04-09T18:16:06Z ecraven: oh, you mean all the others are now "standardized" anyway?
2018-04-09T18:17:17Z jcowan: De facto, yes
2018-04-09T18:18:29Z ecraven: but but what about the C compiler on the lisp machines :D probably not a very relevant objection. all the machines I've seen had the usual 8 16 32 char short int, no idea whether other relevant machines actually exist
2018-04-09T18:19:13Z jcowan: On Cray, int = 64 bits
2018-04-09T18:19:17Z jcowan: or at least older Crays
2018-04-09T18:19:38Z jcowan: This is why, or part of why, I standardized the "memory model" symbols returned by (features)
2018-04-09T18:19:59Z jcowan: ip16, ilp32, lp64, llp64, etc.
2018-04-09T18:20:28Z jcowan: ip16 is pretty much obsolete, fortunately; int can always be assumed to be 32 bits now
2018-04-09T18:20:40Z ecraven: so your suggestion would be to not include all the basic C datatype read/write-..., as most of them are obvious, and the one or two ambiguous ones (long, size_t, pointers) can be dealt with individually?
2018-04-09T18:21:19Z jcowan: hmm
2018-04-09T18:21:32Z jcowan: not sure I have a view yet, just kicking around various facts and ideas
2018-04-09T18:21:41Z ecraven: ok, thanks for the information ;)
2018-04-09T18:22:15Z ecraven: I'd like to include f80, f128 and u/s128, those seem to actually be supported by quite a few compilers
2018-04-09T18:22:34Z ecraven: f80 and f128 are a problem, they cannot be represented in any Scheme I know.. u/s128 would just be bignums
2018-04-09T18:22:38Z LeoNerd: Hah.. "80" bit floats
2018-04-09T18:22:50Z LeoNerd: Those Intel ones are 79 bits in reality
2018-04-09T18:23:00Z jcowan: Racket has an 80-bit float library, but f80s are not Scheme numbers (do not answer #t to number?)
2018-04-09T18:23:28Z LeoNerd: Intel format has an explicit "1." bit in the mantissa, apparently for silicon efficiency
2018-04-09T18:23:28Z ecraven: jcowan: couldn't they be? would a Scheme that uses f80 to implement inexact floats be nonconforming?
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2018-04-09T18:23:38Z ecraven: so no denormalized numbers?
2018-04-09T18:23:38Z LeoNerd: You can get really weird behaviour out of the FPU if that bit is 0 instead ;)
2018-04-09T18:23:52Z ecraven: oh, explicit.. interesting
2018-04-09T18:23:54Z jcowan: Definitely conforming
2018-04-09T18:24:09Z LeoNerd: That's why they're really 79bit floats, because that one bit is fixed
2018-04-09T18:24:14Z jcowan: However it will mean that if you do not have exact rationals, you will have to return f80s or f96s or f128s instead
2018-04-09T18:24:37Z LeoNerd: Intel never really intended anyone to use these directly; they're supposed to be just intermediate values internal to the calculation
2018-04-09T18:25:04Z ecraven: I'm not even sure whether anyone actually uses long double in an actual API
2018-04-09T18:25:48Z jcowan: Not that I know of, but floats are pretty alien to me; except in float-only languages, I have not used them seriously, like, ever.
2018-04-09T18:26:40Z jcowan: I note that in Fortran, single complex numbers are COMPLEX KIND=4 or COMPLEX*8 whereas double complex numbers are COMPLEX KIND=8 or COMPLEX*16
2018-04-09T18:26:52Z jcowan: the second form being less systematic but older and more widespread
2018-04-09T18:26:58Z jcowan: so there is Fortran precedent both ways
2018-04-09T18:27:18Z ecraven: hehe, we'll just have c32, c64 and c128, with c64 being ambiguous :P
2018-04-09T18:27:22Z jcowan: well, maybe in drawing sine waves using TTY graphics
2018-04-09T18:27:35Z jcowan: but Basic that old would count as a float-only language too.
2018-04-09T18:27:50Z jcowan: and when I say TTY, I mean the kind with a long roll of yellow paper
2018-04-09T18:28:29Z qu1j0t3: hahahah
2018-04-09T18:28:42Z qu1j0t3: jcowan: yeah by the time i learned BASIC it had integers and CRTs
2018-04-09T18:29:31Z qu1j0t3: well not entirely. My high school did have a batch BASIC system with mark/sense card reader and fast line printer.
2018-04-09T18:29:35Z jcowan: one of my first jobs was with a company that drew biorhythms for you on line-printer paper using an LA36 (TTY that accepted fanfold rather than rolled paper)
2018-04-09T18:29:39Z qu1j0t3: but it was hooked up to MSBASIC afaik
2018-04-09T18:30:08Z jcowan: We had the mark-sense card reader, but in practice we didn't use it
2018-04-09T18:30:29Z jcowan: did everything in console mode, one user at a time
2018-04-09T18:30:30Z qu1j0t3: definitely on the way out by the time i was in high school. we had two glass TTYs when I started.
2018-04-09T18:30:36Z qu1j0t3: often running WordStar
2018-04-09T18:31:06Z jcowan: the $15,000 personal computer the size of a large refrigerator
2018-04-09T18:34:06Z jcowan: about $60-$75,000 in today's dollars
2018-04-09T18:35:31Z vyzo: jcowan: i kind of thing as cXX specifying the precision of the floats
2018-04-09T18:35:42Z jcowan: Yes, it's a reasonable point of view
2018-04-09T18:35:44Z vyzo: since it will literally be just two concecutive float reads
2018-04-09T18:35:49Z vyzo: ecraven: i would argue against bloat
2018-04-09T18:36:00Z vyzo: just do the basic number types for bytevector and port
2018-04-09T18:36:04Z vyzo: don't bother with C types
2018-04-09T18:36:11Z vyzo: these stuffs can be easily implemented on top
2018-04-09T18:36:13Z ecraven: I tend to agree :-)
2018-04-09T18:36:30Z ecraven: bytevector as in bytevector-s32-ref etc.?
2018-04-09T18:36:32Z jcowan: SRFI 122 uses c64 and c128 however
2018-04-09T18:37:00Z jcowan: I would also argue against an extra argument for endianness
2018-04-09T18:37:10Z ecraven: jcowan: how would you specify endianness then?
2018-04-09T18:37:12Z jcowan: better to double the API size in a trivial and predictable way
2018-04-09T18:37:22Z jcowan: there are really only two cases, native and network
2018-04-09T18:37:25Z ecraven: jcowan: then you cannot easily have endianness-dependent readers
2018-04-09T18:37:34Z jcowan: How not?
2018-04-09T18:37:54Z jcowan: read-native-s16, read-network-s16
2018-04-09T18:38:06Z ecraven: I mean, you would need to have (if (big-endian?) (read-u16-be ..) (read-u16-le ..)) all over the place, instead of (read-u16 ... endianness)
2018-04-09T18:38:42Z ecraven: jcowan: things like elf directly define the endianness, so on a big endian machine, you would not be able to read little-endian data at all
2018-04-09T18:38:55Z jcowan: Ah, didn't know that
2018-04-09T18:39:15Z jcowan: (about elf)
2018-04-09T18:39:29Z ecraven: it's a flag in the header
2018-04-09T18:39:33Z jcowan: seems stupid, it means on a BE machine you have to byte swap as you load a program
2018-04-09T18:39:36Z ecraven: (not that reading elf is the most important thing)
2018-04-09T18:39:39Z jcowan: ah
2018-04-09T18:39:51Z jcowan: so write native, set flag, read cleverly?
2018-04-09T18:40:18Z vyzo: I think there is merit in having both
2018-04-09T18:40:23Z ecraven: the endianness in the elf header might only be relevant for the actual elf data structures, not for the program payload
2018-04-09T18:40:30Z jcowan: Presumably yes
2018-04-09T18:40:31Z ecraven: vyzo: I'd agree, I'd prefer 'big and 'little to 'native and 'network
2018-04-09T18:40:34Z vyzo: there are wire protocols (braindead sure, but still) that do little endianess
2018-04-09T18:40:37Z jcowan: that is to say, the payload would be native
2018-04-09T18:41:16Z ecraven: to me it just feels that having read-u16-le and read-u16-be is a worse API than having just one function
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2018-04-09T18:43:13Z jcowan: My original design actually had -le, -be, and null (= native)
2018-04-09T18:44:03Z weinholt: the endianness in ELF files is native to the arch the file is compiled for, so a kernel doesn't need to byteswap, but toolchains supporting many archs need to be prepared to do so
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2018-04-09T18:44:35Z jcowan: weinholt: Thanks
2018-04-09T18:45:44Z jcowan: You actually need three subtypes when writing Unicode:  utf{8,16,32}-le and utf{8,16,32)-be don't have a byte order mark, whereas utf-{8,16,32} does
2018-04-09T18:45:51Z jcowan: and ditto when reading it
2018-04-09T18:56:40Z weinholt: the bytevector-*-native-* procedures in r6rs are something of an optimization (they can be implemented in fewer instructions) but they make programs dependent on the machine type they're running on and that's fraught with traps of the type C programs tend to have, those traps would be nice to avoid
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2018-04-09T21:00:32Z gwatt: weinholt: It's useful if you're passing a bytevector to the FFI (nonstandard territory, I know)
2018-04-09T21:05:04Z jcowan: yes, FFI standardization is out of scope for R7RS (by chair's fiat)
2018-04-09T21:07:13Z jcowan: also object systems
2018-04-09T21:07:21Z jcowan: and I am considering doing the same with record inheritance
2018-04-09T21:07:28Z jcowan: all of them seem to be ratholes for standardization
2018-04-09T21:08:54Z daviid: what is 'chair's fiat'?
2018-04-09T21:10:23Z gwatt: daviid: jcoawn's whim
2018-04-09T21:10:34Z gwatt: as he is chair of the r7rs committee
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2018-04-09T21:10:47Z daviid: ah ok
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2018-04-09T23:41:12Z nosefouratyou: hey I am trying to get chez scheme and company-quickhelp to work and I am completely clueless. the details are here: https://github.com/jaor/geiser/issues/245
2018-04-09T23:41:29Z nosefouratyou: company-quickhelp and autodoc that is
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2018-04-10T00:45:54Z jcowan: gwatt, daviid: not exactly whim, more like judgment that it's a rathole.
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2018-04-10T00:46:34Z jcowan: that we are unlikely to get agreement, and if we did, we are unlikely to get widespread implementation
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2018-04-10T00:53:45Z daviid: jcowan: I see, I did not know the word 'fiat', I did look in a dictionary since ...
2018-04-10T00:53:55Z jcowan: oh, okay
2018-04-10T00:54:29Z daviid: neither did I know the word 'whim' :) (not a native speaker...)
2018-04-10T00:54:58Z jcowan: how about "rathole"?
2018-04-10T00:55:51Z daviid: that I understand, but i thought americans would use rabbit hole instead
2018-04-10T00:56:51Z daviid: or maybe rathole is different from rabbithole, not sure now
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2018-04-10T01:07:59Z nosefouratyou: daviid: I think they are synonymous... I've never heard rathole either
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2018-04-10T01:42:32Z elly: "rathole" and "rabbithole" are synonyms
2018-04-10T01:42:41Z elly: speaking as a commonwealth immigrant to america :)
2018-04-10T01:44:33Z pierpa: rathole sounds stinkier than rabbithole, though (not a native speaker either)
2018-04-10T01:46:11Z qu1j0t3: depends what has crawled down it and died
2018-04-10T01:47:09Z pierpa: record inheritance :)
2018-04-10T01:47:21Z elly: ew :P
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2018-04-10T02:11:08Z jcowan: rabbit hole to me suggests only Alice in Wonderland
2018-04-10T02:11:20Z jcowan: the point about a rathole is that you never can escape from it
2018-04-10T02:12:09Z jcowan: so when a conversation goes down a rathole, it has gone off on some irrelevant subject that consumes the rest of the available time/attention
2018-04-10T02:12:11Z qu1j0t3: what about a shithole
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2018-04-10T02:16:10Z elly: one of the main skills of meeting facilitators is spotting ratholes and steering the conversation away
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2018-04-10T02:16:48Z jcowan nods
2018-04-10T02:17:11Z jcowan: some good people got scared out of R7RS-small work because of the fexpr rathole
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2018-04-10T02:23:18Z pierpa: jcowan: Mr. Collins agree with you. https://www.collinsdictionary.com/dictionary/english/rathole
2018-04-10T02:23:26Z pierpa: *agrees
2018-04-10T02:24:57Z pierpa: https://www.collinsdictionary.com/dictionary/english/rabbit-hole
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2018-04-10T02:31:16Z qu1j0t3: i'm glad we cleared that up, i was worried we were heading down a, you know
2018-04-10T02:31:38Z pierpa: :)
2018-04-10T02:31:45Z qu1j0t3: :)
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2018-04-10T03:47:07Z Riastradh: ...how do discussions of fexprs not get shut down immediately by an overwhelming groan from everyone with any sense in the room?
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2018-04-10T06:28:36Z ecraven: what's the fexpr rathole?
2018-04-10T06:33:22Z vyzo: it's the harmonic groan from everyone involved :)
2018-04-10T06:34:11Z vyzo: resonant groan
2018-04-10T06:36:54Z wasamasa: Riastradh: maybe ask #picolisp
2018-04-10T06:37:05Z wasamasa: Riastradh: fexprs work well for them
2018-04-10T06:37:14Z wasamasa: Riastradh: this includes unorthodox use of eval in them
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2018-04-10T08:02:42Z ecraven: ah, fexpr is nlambda
2018-04-10T08:04:34Z vyzo: the universal obfuscator :)
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2018-04-10T11:42:58Z siraben: qu1j0t3: That is the powerset algorithm, but the implementation in Scheme was so elegant
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2018-04-10T14:40:03Z rudybot: la la la
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2018-04-10T15:08:41Z foof: ecraven: by all means
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2018-04-10T15:31:49Z Riastradh: ecraven: fexprs are a completely useless feature for making programs totally incomprehensible by allowing every function at run-time to change the meaning of any subexpression in a call to the function.
2018-04-10T15:31:59Z Riastradh: ecraven: For some reason they are attractive, probably to people who never tried to build serious complex programs.
2018-04-10T15:32:49Z vyzo: that's why I callde them "the universal obfuscator" :)
2018-04-10T15:32:56Z vyzo: makes reading programs impossible
2018-04-10T15:34:00Z Riastradh: Or maybe people who never tried to _study_ complex programs that anyone else wrote.
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2018-04-10T15:44:12Z jcowan: Smalltalk-72 was based on fexprs, but by Smalltalk-80 they were displaced by ordinary functions and lambdas
2018-04-10T15:44:46Z jcowan: even to the point that the primitive conditional in ST-80 is of the form (if-then expr (lambda () expr) (lambda () expr))
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2018-04-10T21:55:31Z duncanm: la la la
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2018-04-10T22:53:32Z qu1j0t3: no u
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2018-04-11T00:45:32Z mazeto: Is there a version of scheme that does not treat everything as a linked list? I would like to have a scheme implementation that handles arrays just as in C. e.g: (index 42 array)
2018-04-11T00:46:03Z gwatt: there are vectors
2018-04-11T01:00:05Z aeth: The #1 sin in teaching Lisp and Scheme is when some book or website or whatever only uses lists. Lists are rarely the correct data structure outside of macros imo. And newbies shouldn't be writing lots of macros.
2018-04-11T01:01:24Z aeth: The only data structure being lists is probably the most common false impression. Lua (with its tables) is probably a lot closer to being a one-data-structure language.
2018-04-11T01:02:18Z qu1j0t3: i dunno, i use lists 99.99% of the time
2018-04-11T01:02:26Z qu1j0t3: i don't think i have any production FP apps using vector
2018-04-11T01:03:35Z aeth: I personally don't really see Lisp or Scheme as a functional programming language. There isn't really the optimizations at the implementation level for that (except maybe a bit in Racket with the immutable conses, but that's what makes Racket no longer a Scheme).
2018-04-11T01:03:54Z aeth: I think the most efficient and idiomatic style is a "mostly functional" style of tiny, pure functions feeding into mutable data structures.
2018-04-11T01:04:18Z qu1j0t3: well maybe that's it. I just don't need to index anything really when writing FP code
2018-04-11T01:04:28Z qu1j0t3: or pure FP code
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2018-04-11T01:04:40Z qu1j0t3: and i sure as heck don't want to mutate anything either :)
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2018-04-11T01:07:19Z aeth: I mostly FP when performance doesn't matter, which usually means in macros, where you already have lists.
2018-04-11T01:07:34Z aeth: Doesn't matter how inefficient the macros are, it'll be faster than C++ compilation ;-)
2018-04-11T01:08:22Z aeth: <insert comment about the obscure Scheme that takes a day to compile here>
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2018-04-11T01:21:24Z mazeto: aeth: Why did you said "lists are rarely the correct data structure outside macros". I didn't know what macros were until now, and macros are just like macros in C, but run-time, and making code substitution.
2018-04-11T01:21:38Z mazeto: ?
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2018-04-11T01:25:14Z gwatt: No, C macros are pretty limited
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2018-04-11T01:42:06Z qu1j0t3: not the same thing at all
2018-04-11T01:42:22Z qu1j0t3: just an unfortunate coincidence of naming
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2018-04-11T02:14:32Z aeth: Macros aren't (afaik) run-time. No need for them to be.
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2018-04-11T07:16:47Z wasamasa: for a language with lists being the incorrect choice most of the time, surely there are tons of list processing functions, huh
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2018-04-11T13:27:58Z qu1j0t3: wasamasa: I guess it was preceded by "imho" :)
2018-04-11T13:28:10Z qu1j0t3: wasamasa: or at least followed by "imo"
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2018-04-11T14:05:37Z jcowan: wasamasa: Lists are only an incorrect choice in the performant parts of an application
2018-04-11T14:05:59Z jcowan: much of any application, and all of some applications, need not be particularly performant
2018-04-11T14:06:24Z jcowan: In addition, lists are the only variable-length sequences we have
2018-04-11T14:06:40Z jcowan: vectors and records are better than fixed-length lists on most grounds
2018-04-11T14:07:18Z jcowan: as for the chunky list library, R7RS-small gives all datatypes except bytevectors more or less the same size library
2018-04-11T14:07:37Z jcowan: and most of the datatypes in the Red Edition have APIs directly based on SRFI 1.
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2018-04-11T14:20:22Z manumanumanu: I would recommend everyone to take a look at arximboldi's "immer" on github. He has rudimentary bindings for guile, but it should be pretty easy to make regular scheme bindings if you know a bit of c++.
2018-04-11T14:20:32Z manumanumanu: talking about lists,  I mean.
2018-04-11T14:20:47Z manumanumanu: They are persistent datastructures that are _very_ fast.
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2018-04-11T14:24:14Z duncanm: Morning
2018-04-11T14:25:43Z siraben: Night
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2018-04-11T14:26:36Z manumanumanu: good day
2018-04-11T14:26:52Z duncanm: jcowan: I wish the SRFI 1 APIs were implemented with Dylan/CLOS generic functions
2018-04-11T14:27:22Z jcowan: Just you wait, Enery Iggins
2018-04-11T14:27:47Z jcowan: Generic functions will be coming to a SRFI near you
2018-04-11T14:27:56Z duncanm: One length instead of length, string-length, vector-length, ...
2018-04-11T14:28:18Z jcowan: Exactly
2018-04-11T14:29:28Z manumanumanu: Arthur asked me to make a srfi of my transducers, so that'll provide a small tingling sense of generic procedures.
2018-04-11T14:29:59Z pierpa: hopefully something Simpler than clos
2018-04-11T14:30:24Z manumanumanu: Which schemes has object systems? chicken and guile at least
2018-04-11T14:31:38Z pierpa: jcowan: you have looked at eulisp, I suppose?
2018-04-11T14:31:43Z jcowan: The nice thing about chibi-style generic functions (which is what I will be proposing, with improvements) is that they depend on general predicates, not on a type system
2018-04-11T14:31:55Z gwatt: manumanumanu: I think mit-scheme does as well
2018-04-11T14:32:30Z duncanm: jcowan: does it have call-next-method?
2018-04-11T14:32:40Z jcowan: duncanm: yes
2018-04-11T14:32:44Z jcowan: pierpa: I have
2018-04-11T14:32:55Z pierpa: guessed so :)
2018-04-11T14:33:13Z jcowan: It's not practical to rebuild Scheme from the ground up on an object system: they will for the foreseeable future continue to be bolt-ons.
2018-04-11T14:33:52Z jcowan: But generic functions are the best part of OO, and bringing them portably to Scheme is straightforward, including integrating with an existing object system
2018-04-11T14:34:07Z manumanumanu: jcowan: is there any docs for chibi generic? The web page on ashinn's webpage is an empty document
2018-04-11T14:34:39Z jcowan: http://synthcode.com/scheme/chibi/lib/chibi/generic.html works for me
2018-04-11T14:35:16Z manumanumanu: hmmm. this was the link on the page: http://synthcode.com/scheme/lib/chibi/generic.html
2018-04-11T14:35:18Z jcowan: define-method has to use a low-level implementation because call-next-method is used non-hygienically
2018-04-11T14:35:19Z manumanumanu: that works though
2018-04-11T14:36:02Z pierpa: there's a paper by Henry Baker where he advocates generic functions without classes. something in this direction, I suppose
2018-04-11T14:36:14Z jcowan: currently subsumption is not handled; I intend to add subsume! (to update a subsumption database) and subsumes? to query it
2018-04-11T14:36:35Z jcowan: so when a method is inserted, we make sure it is inserted in the right place
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2018-04-11T14:37:17Z manumanumanu: what would be the downside of that compared to an actual object system? I suspect method lookup would be slower, but I have no clue why.
2018-04-11T14:37:31Z duncanm: Hmm, I don't quite get what "most recent" means from the doc
2018-04-11T14:37:45Z jcowan: Literally, the most recent addition to the generic function
2018-04-11T14:37:58Z duncanm: Ahhh
2018-04-11T14:38:17Z jcowan: to get the "right" behavior you have to add supertypes before subtypes
2018-04-11T14:38:27Z duncanm: So that's why the subsumption suggestion
2018-04-11T14:38:33Z jcowan: just so
2018-04-11T14:39:08Z jcowan: in particular we do not want to make the behavior of a Scheme program or library dependent on the order in which it imports things
2018-04-11T14:39:37Z jcowan: in a class-based Scheme, subsumes? would understand the structure of the classes
2018-04-11T14:39:53Z duncanm: And the GFs will always be open?
2018-04-11T14:40:06Z jcowan: yes, by intention
2018-04-11T14:40:14Z jcowan: I suppose generic-function-seal! could be added
2018-04-11T14:41:18Z jcowan: manumanumanu: For one obvious point, random predicates might take arbitrarily long to execute, whereas class membership can typically be tested more quickly
2018-04-11T14:41:18Z pierpa: chili's generics seems cute, but aren't they doing at runtime things that other systems do at compile time?
2018-04-11T14:41:29Z jcowan: Yes
2018-04-11T14:41:42Z jcowan: hence the macro implementation, which can be as smart as you want
2018-04-11T14:41:52Z pierpa: hmmm
2018-04-11T14:42:35Z jcowan: I will require programmers to use only pure functional predicates
2018-04-11T14:42:49Z jcowan: (to allow implementers freedom to optimize them)
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2018-04-11T14:43:10Z pierpa: k
2018-04-11T14:43:12Z manumanumanu: a sufficiently smart compiler with cross-module optimization will make it work as compile-time :) guile's peval isn't doing cross-module optimization, but it sure works some magic
2018-04-11T14:43:48Z jcowan: note that it will be no worse than typical clos implementations
2018-04-11T14:44:39Z vyzo: manumanumanu: gerbil has an object system as well, with generics with type-based dispatch
2018-04-11T14:44:46Z jcowan: one nice feature is that you don't need a special type algebra like (or integer inexact), you just write a lambda that does that
2018-04-11T14:45:13Z manumanumanu: vyzo: reading the docs already :)
2018-04-11T14:48:05Z manumanumanu: vyzo: If you are interested I have a for-loop approach that might be faster than your current generator-based version. it, as of right now, returns 4 procedures which can be used to tell the loop with which value to start, when to stop, how to continue and how to get the value. peval in guile makes it as fast as a hand-rolled loop.
2018-04-11T14:48:46Z manumanumanu: it is mpl-licensed right now, but if you want to I can re-license.
2018-04-11T14:49:41Z vyzo: well, there is an iterator object
2018-04-11T14:49:44Z vyzo: that has 3 procedures
2018-04-11T14:49:50Z vyzo: that's internally used for most of the iterators
2018-04-11T14:49:53Z vyzo: and you can use it of course
2018-04-11T14:50:06Z vyzo: but I got lazy and didn't document it, instead went for the coroutines
2018-04-11T14:50:18Z vyzo: I should document it now that I was prompted :)
2018-04-11T14:50:40Z duncanm: jcowan: that's interesting
2018-04-11T14:51:18Z duncanm: jcowan: what about adding methods at runtime?
2018-04-11T14:51:44Z duncanm: I think Henry Baker's Static CLOS forbids that
2018-04-11T14:52:31Z jcowan: that's what generic-add! is for
2018-04-11T14:52:42Z manumanumanu: vyzo: ah :) ok :)
2018-04-11T14:53:24Z jcowan: I think the right way to do sealing is to have a procedure generic-function-optimize which returns an optimized version of its gf argument, such that it is an error to call gf-add! on it.
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2018-04-11T14:53:51Z jcowan: Simple implementations can just return the original gf; smart ones can do any amount of optimizing
2018-04-11T14:55:05Z jcowan: although that design would prevent implementations from inlining the methods
2018-04-11T14:55:10Z jcowan: have to think further
2018-04-11T14:55:24Z vyzo: manumanumanu: it actually as 4 procedures
2018-04-11T14:55:32Z vyzo: start, value, next, and fini for timely cleanup
2018-04-11T14:55:38Z vyzo: slightly different than your imple
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2018-04-11T14:56:13Z duncanm: Do you guys know the iteration protocol from Dylan? I think it's similar
2018-04-11T14:58:03Z vyzo: vaguely :)
2018-04-11T15:02:16Z duncanm: http://amigos.rdsathene.org/other/prefix-dylan/design-notes/26-iteration-protocol.html
2018-04-11T15:02:35Z duncanm: they changed from prefix to infix in note 22
2018-04-11T15:04:08Z manumanumanu: vyzo: how do you tell that it is finished? say that a list is null.
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2018-04-11T15:08:36Z vyzo: there is a special value you can return from the iter-value procedure
2018-04-11T15:08:38Z vyzo: iter-end
2018-04-11T15:08:43Z vyzo: that signals end of iteration
2018-04-11T15:09:02Z vyzo: I would also like to optimize them a tad, as having the same performance as hand-rolled loops would be groovy :)
2018-04-11T15:10:07Z vyzo: duncanm: that looks like a heavy duty protocol
2018-04-11T15:10:15Z vyzo: how far did they get in optimizing it in the compiler?
2018-04-11T15:10:48Z manumanumanu: vyzo: have a look at https://bitbucket.org/bjoli/guile-for-loops They are syntax-case only, but sadly still also guile-only. I am having a look at gerbil, maybe I'll port them just for fun.
2018-04-11T15:10:54Z duncanm: I dunno, it says
2018-04-11T15:10:57Z duncanm: "The new iteration protocol is complex, but allows better performance than the original specification."
2018-04-11T15:11:05Z manumanumanu: it depends heavily on guiles peval though...
2018-04-11T15:11:31Z manumanumanu: I wrote it with a close eye on what guile's optimizer did with the code
2018-04-11T15:12:11Z vyzo: thanks, that's very interesting
2018-04-11T15:12:27Z vyzo: i really want to get to a point where they are as performant as hand-rolled loops
2018-04-11T15:12:31Z vyzo: so that I can use them in hot paths
2018-04-11T15:12:36Z vyzo: because they are *nice* :)
2018-04-11T15:12:46Z vyzo: but as with all nice things, they tend to be rather slow
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2018-04-11T15:17:52Z manumanumanu: gambit's optimizer should be pretty capable of turning my macros to efficient code. I'll have a go at porting them in the next couple of weeks if I and my son stay healthy (about 25% chance of that). They should be easily ported to anything that supports keywords :D
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2018-04-11T15:19:12Z vyzo: that would be groovy!
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2018-04-11T15:51:28Z vyzo: manumanumanu: when you get started, I can add bitbucket support to gxpkg
2018-04-11T15:51:39Z vyzo: so that you can make an easily installable package for all gerbils
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2018-04-11T16:55:24Z duncanm: dum de dum
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2018-04-11T17:27:30Z duncanm: jcowan: i've an implementation of generic functions for Kawa, and it does C3 linearization
2018-04-11T17:27:45Z duncanm: i might be able to make it do the Chibi way fairly easily
2018-04-11T17:27:58Z jcowan: I'm divided between "cool" and "yeesh"
2018-04-11T17:28:16Z duncanm: heh
2018-04-11T17:28:26Z jcowan: c3 linearization is the right way to do linearization, but I am far from convinced that linearization is right
2018-04-11T17:28:43Z Riastradh: logarithmation all the way
2018-04-11T17:28:52Z duncanm: hey Riastradh
2018-04-11T17:29:01Z LeoNerd: I've never worked out if C3 stands for anything... like, is it actually C³ for "CCC", some list of initials?
2018-04-11T17:29:49Z duncanm: heh, it looks like this paper from 1995 is kinda close to what Chibi did? http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/download?doi=10.1.1.69.1025&rep=rep1&type=pdf
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2018-04-11T17:30:10Z Riastradh: (E/m)^3/2
2018-04-11T17:30:35Z duncanm: oh, it's not the same
2018-04-11T17:30:53Z jcowan: stands for "three ways consistent"
2018-04-11T17:31:16Z jcowan: consistent with: the precedence graph, local order, and monotonicity
2018-04-11T17:31:19Z duncanm: > The solution is to sort the type predicates by their relationship in the type hierarchy. This requires that the procedure that inserts methods into the method database know the type hierarchy. To make this possible, two more procedures are provided; one to declare a subtype relationship (called is-a), and one to query for a subtype relationship (called is-a ?).
2018-04-11T17:31:29Z jcowan: The evolution of Self is interesting in this respect.
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2018-04-11T17:31:37Z duncanm: oh yeah?
2018-04-11T17:32:21Z jcowan: it has always had multiple inheritance (it is prototype-based rather than class-based, but that doesn't matter)
2018-04-11T17:32:35Z jcowan: earlier versions had various resolution mechanisms akin to CLOS
2018-04-11T17:32:56Z jcowan: but later they decided on a simple static policy: if a method or slot is inherited from two different sources, it's an error, period.
2018-04-11T17:34:02Z duncanm: jcowan: was this evolution written up in any paper? is it in the _Organizing Programs without Classes_  paper?
2018-04-11T17:34:14Z jcowan: I'm sure it was
2018-04-11T17:34:17Z jcowan looks
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2018-04-11T17:38:02Z jcowan: http://bibliography.selflanguage.org/_static/parents-shared-parts.pdf explains the old way (prioritized inheritance and sender-path disambiguation)
2018-04-11T17:39:03Z duncanm: ahh
2018-04-11T17:39:11Z duncanm: yeah, i know of that paper, but I didn't know it was "old"
2018-04-11T17:39:37Z jcowan: Self is interesting in that the parent links are exposed as slots and can be made mutable
2018-04-11T17:43:04Z jcowan: ah, it's in the retrospective paper
2018-04-11T17:43:06Z jcowan: http://bibliography.selflanguage.org/_static/programming-as-experience.pdf
2018-04-11T17:43:17Z jcowan: section 2.1 under minimalism
2018-04-11T17:43:36Z duncanm: i see
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2018-04-11T17:47:06Z duncanm: jcowan: i read the section on minimalism, is there a place where they talk about turning it into an error?
2018-04-11T17:49:44Z duncanm: https://flagxor.com/article/multiple-prototypes - hmm
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2018-04-11T17:51:21Z jcowan: I don't see why he calls the Self rule baroque, it's about as simple as a rule can be.  One and done.
2018-04-11T17:51:37Z jcowan: maybe he means that you need baroque workarounds to get around it
2018-04-11T17:55:07Z jcowan: moral: never call your new language (or any other project) by a very common word like "self"
2018-04-11T17:56:03Z wasamasa: I wonder whether I should bother implementing MAL in self, but it's not obvious how to use it like a scripting language
2018-04-11T17:56:15Z wasamasa: as opposed to an image-based one
2018-04-11T17:57:24Z wasamasa: the manual included with the latest snapshot is incorrect about the startup bits, so who knows how useful it is in general
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2018-04-11T18:10:38Z duncanm: jcowan: maybe he's talking about the "older" style in Self instead?
2018-04-11T18:11:27Z jcowan: no, he says "All parent trees are traversed when deciding how to resolve a key, if two equal precedence resolutions are possible, an error is thrown."
2018-04-11T18:11:34Z jcowan: that's definitely Self 4.x
2018-04-11T18:11:55Z duncanm: ahh
2018-04-11T18:13:23Z duncanm: https://blog.selflanguage.org/2016/06/15/lessons-learnt-from-the-self-archive/#more-318 -- this is fun
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2018-04-11T18:25:10Z jcowan: When GitHub dies, the open source world will stagger
2018-04-11T18:25:32Z jcowan: in principle, everything will be recoverable from people's local git repos, but which one is the "mainline"?
2018-04-11T18:26:41Z vyzo: why do you think github is in danger of dying?
2018-04-11T18:27:57Z weinholt: these things come and go, it's normal
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2018-04-11T18:43:27Z jcowan: vyzo: not immediately, but eventually, like everything else
2018-04-11T18:43:39Z jcowan: even mountains erode if you wait long enough
2018-04-11T18:43:59Z vyzo: i think there will be enough warning for people to migrate their stuffs
2018-04-11T18:44:15Z vyzo: sourceforouge is still alive after all, even it is a zombie
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2018-04-11T18:50:41Z oleo: sourceforges new web appearance i dont't like.... somewhow....
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2018-04-11T18:50:57Z oleo: not sure if it's only me
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2018-04-11T18:51:24Z gwatt: sbcl still uses sourceforge
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2018-04-11T18:52:58Z oleo: no i meant the web makeup
2018-04-11T18:53:15Z oleo: nasty html style
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2018-04-12T05:38:04Z ecraven: just because git came up, anyone here ever tried fossil?
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2018-04-12T06:53:20Z wasamasa: there's a few people on #chicken who use it
2018-04-12T06:53:20Z wasamasa: the VCS-agnostic egg system helps
2018-04-12T06:54:34Z vyzo: wasamasa: btw, i thought some more about your request for immediate execution of executables without a main
2018-04-12T06:54:40Z vyzo: apart from the subjective arguments
2018-04-12T06:54:50Z vyzo: there is an actual problem with doing it that way in dynamic executables
2018-04-12T06:55:21Z vyzo: in this mode of operation, the dependent modules are loaded dynamically, including the executable's main module
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2018-04-12T06:55:33Z vyzo: that means that if you had immediate execution, you would be running in the loader context
2018-04-12T06:55:39Z vyzo: and not as a continuation of main
2018-04-12T06:55:58Z vyzo: that's problematic in many ways, as the loader may hold locks etc
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2018-04-12T06:56:11Z vyzo: so that's a technical argument about having a main function
2018-04-12T06:56:32Z vyzo: (apart form my opinions and the fact that it makes it possible to load your executable module for profiling, debugging, etc)
2018-04-12T06:59:47Z wasamasa: perhaps that needs rethinking then because I can do the same just fine in CHICKEN
2018-04-12T07:01:24Z vyzo: maybe so
2018-04-12T07:01:31Z vyzo: I really like dynamic executables though
2018-04-12T07:01:47Z vyzo: the way it works rn is it loads the module (and its dependencies)
2018-04-12T07:01:53Z vyzo: and then fishes the main function with eval
2018-04-12T07:02:05Z vyzo: and tail calls with the cdr of command-line
2018-04-12T07:02:15Z vyzo: it's a very logical behaviour i think
2018-04-12T07:02:25Z vyzo: note that in static executables there is no such issue
2018-04-12T07:02:35Z vyzo: it just ends with a direct call to the main function
2018-04-12T07:02:58Z vyzo: also, just to be clear: I am not discussing having a flag -- that would be butt ugly :)
2018-04-12T07:03:13Z vyzo: but the compiler driver could see that there is no main exported, and just generate code that invokes the module
2018-04-12T07:03:26Z vyzo: however being in loader context is a real problem
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2018-04-12T07:08:56Z wasamasa: I mistakenly assumed a flag would be a trivial workaround
2018-04-12T07:09:05Z vyzo: nah, there will be no flag :)
2018-04-12T07:09:09Z vyzo: because none is needed
2018-04-12T07:09:20Z vyzo: compiler can see there is no main export and just execute
2018-04-12T07:09:31Z wasamasa: why do you use a main export then?
2018-04-12T07:09:40Z wasamasa: I thought all this time it's needed
2018-04-12T07:09:45Z vyzo: it _is_ needed
2018-04-12T07:09:50Z wasamasa: I don't even
2018-04-12T07:10:02Z vyzo: so the actual name of the function will be different than main
2018-04-12T07:10:07Z wasamasa: is it always needed?
2018-04-12T07:10:15Z vyzo: for dynamic executables yes
2018-04-12T07:10:26Z vyzo: note that you can re-export a main from a different module
2018-04-12T07:10:30Z vyzo: just side effect it
2018-04-12T07:10:36Z wasamasa: all I take from this conversation is that I shouldn't look at gerbil at all if I can't comprehend something as simple as how to get my top-level code to run
2018-04-12T07:10:53Z vyzo: just add a main function :)
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2018-04-12T07:11:06Z wasamasa: so, it's not possible at all
2018-04-12T07:11:09Z vyzo: note that your top level code does run!
2018-04-12T07:11:13Z wasamasa: because then it's no more top-level code
2018-04-12T07:11:22Z vyzo: it is in module scope
2018-04-12T07:11:25Z wasamasa: it's just yet another function that is magically invoked later
2018-04-12T07:11:25Z vyzo: that code runs in the loader
2018-04-12T07:11:36Z vyzo: your initializations will run just fine
2018-04-12T07:11:46Z vyzo: and if you put an invocation of your main logic it will too
2018-04-12T07:11:48Z wasamasa: it's as if saying your scheme supports only define at top-level
2018-04-12T07:11:56Z vyzo: no, you misunderstand
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2018-04-12T07:12:04Z vyzo: your top-level code is executed just fine
2018-04-12T07:12:06Z wasamasa: on top of that, only when using dynamic executables
2018-04-12T07:12:16Z wasamasa: for whatever screwed up reason the compilation mode matters here
2018-04-12T07:12:27Z vyzo: right, so in order to not matter, we require a main
2018-04-12T07:12:29Z wasamasa: or rather, linking
2018-04-12T07:12:39Z vyzo: which comes with its extra benefits for profiling and debugging
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2018-04-12T07:13:15Z vyzo: so just to be clear, I could let the compiler just run stuff and not bother with main
2018-04-12T07:13:21Z vyzo: if it is not exported
2018-04-12T07:13:32Z wasamasa: yes, but that's not what it does, is it
2018-04-12T07:13:41Z vyzo: you'd just have the funny side effect of having your main logic executed in loader context in dynamic executables
2018-04-12T07:14:00Z wasamasa: and you chose the laziest workaround for that
2018-04-12T07:14:15Z vyzo: well, I want the main function for other reasons too
2018-04-12T07:14:20Z wasamasa: I'd understand something like reusable code that's loaded by other code to require exports
2018-04-12T07:14:55Z vyzo: but in a dynamic executable all your code is reusable
2018-04-12T07:15:05Z vyzo: including your main module
2018-04-12T07:15:15Z vyzo: that enables profiling, I can't stress that enough :)
2018-04-12T07:15:16Z wasamasa: I'm glad I'm using a high-level language where such stuff doesn't matter at all
2018-04-12T07:15:18Z wasamasa: oh wait
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2018-04-12T07:25:45Z vyzo: linkage has always mattered in compiled languages
2018-04-12T07:25:51Z vyzo: that's not about to change any time soon
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2018-04-12T09:02:04Z aoh: something like (display (list->string (map integer->char (list 27 91 51 50 109)))) should work in most systems
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2018-04-12T09:51:21Z ecraven: does any compiler stack-allocate let-bindings, if they cannot escape?
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2018-04-12T14:05:48Z mrm: Doesn't Chicken stack-allocate everything, and use the stack as its nursery?
2018-04-12T14:09:20Z Riastradh: ecraven: Yes, most do.
2018-04-12T14:09:37Z ecraven: nice ;)
2018-04-12T14:10:13Z Riastradh: mrm: In the sense that it uses the C stack as a heap, yes, but probably not in the sense that ecraven was probably asking, if I infer correctly that it meant `_and_ deallocate them with pop?'.
2018-04-12T14:10:43Z ecraven: Riastradh: exactly, that's the point, they shouldn't be garbage collected in any way (as they don't need to be)
2018-04-12T14:12:22Z jcowan_: in any case, stop and copy garbage collectors like Chicken's should really be called non-garbage collectors
2018-04-12T14:12:33Z jcowan_: it's the non-garbage they care about, not the garbage
2018-04-12T14:16:00Z ecraven: I've just been idly thinking whether there is anything Scheme could take from static languages, by analysing the usage patterns of data and not heap-allocating anything that doesn't have to be
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2018-04-12T14:22:12Z jcowan_: ecraven: Certainly
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2018-04-12T14:23:21Z ecraven: does any scheme analyse continuation usage? as in, can this let-binding ever be crossed by a continuation invocation?
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2018-04-12T14:30:45Z Riastradh: It'll just be copied, like the rest of the stack when you save the continuation.
2018-04-12T14:31:36Z ecraven: well, you could just allocate let-bindings into registers directly, those wouldn't be restored
2018-04-12T14:31:41Z jcowan: It's hard to do because e.g. you can stash the continuation in a data structure, just like any other function
2018-04-12T14:32:16Z ecraven: jcowan: indeed, it would have to analyse what is called. very often, the result would be "I don't know" ;)
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2018-04-12T14:33:09Z jcowan: Flopsy, my design for a Not Really Scheme, limits named-let functions to the lexical scope so that they can be compiled into C loops, that being far and away the most common use
2018-04-12T14:33:37Z ecraven: is that design written down anywhere?
2018-04-12T14:33:41Z jcowan: No
2018-04-12T14:33:59Z ecraven: hm.. good point, I never tried to pass the named-let name anywhere around
2018-04-12T14:34:06Z ecraven: I just call it from inside the let body
2018-04-12T14:34:20Z jcowan: the purpose of Flopsy is to be able to write (limited) Scheme code that can be compiled directly into C, for the purpose of making it easy to use unboxed floats
2018-04-12T14:34:23Z jcowan: hence the name
2018-04-12T14:34:42Z jcowan: It also uses sigils for manifest typing
2018-04-12T14:34:43Z ecraven: nan-boxing, or actual unboxed floats?
2018-04-12T14:34:48Z jcowan: Actual
2018-04-12T14:35:03Z ecraven: nice ;)
2018-04-12T14:35:28Z jcowan: actually maybe it should compile into Fortran
2018-04-12T14:35:34Z ecraven: if you have the time and inclination, could you elaborate on sigils for manifest typing? I don't think I've heard that before
2018-04-12T14:35:40Z jcowan: Like Basic
2018-04-12T14:35:49Z jcowan: foo is a float, foo$ is a string, foo% is an integer
2018-04-12T14:35:54Z jcowan: also: foo* is a float array
2018-04-12T14:36:19Z jcowan: foo-> is a procedure returning float, etc.
2018-04-12T14:36:30Z ecraven: ah, so the variables are actually typed, not the values?
2018-04-12T14:36:33Z jcowan: when executing in normal Scheme (for debugging) they are just symbols
2018-04-12T14:36:35Z jcowan: yes
2018-04-12T14:38:39Z jcowan: rather than using type inference as Pre-Scheme or (whatever the name of Felix's low-level Scheme is)
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2018-04-12T14:45:17Z jcowan: or explicit type declarations as Chicken can
2018-04-12T14:46:29Z ecraven: declare all the things!
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2018-04-12T14:48:08Z jcowan: "Old school Lispers are the Jacobites of the Computer Age. Their warnings were ignored, so their nightmares came true; and the world has changed so much, as a result, that few can even imagine an alternative. They were right about nearly everything, and now they are irrelevant.
2018-04-12T14:48:08Z jcowan: "
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2018-04-12T14:54:07Z jcowan shakes his head sadly
2018-04-12T15:00:30Z jcowan: Crunch, that's the name I was trying to remember
2018-04-12T15:01:54Z jcowan: actually, Crunch is probably better than Flopsy
2018-04-12T15:03:36Z ecraven: for number crunching?
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2018-04-12T15:07:21Z jcowan: right
2018-04-12T15:07:45Z jcowan: it generates pure C without dependencies, which you can then call from the FFI of any C-based Scheme
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2018-04-12T17:13:47Z duncanm: hello hello
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2018-04-12T19:20:52Z wasamasa: crunch generates C++
2018-04-12T19:29:23Z ecraven ponders whether it would be worth it to implement strings as both vectors *and* ropes, and support both at runtime
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2018-04-12T19:31:14Z akkad hunts for an soap implementation on a scheme
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2018-04-12T19:36:12Z wasamasa: banana peels are better for comedic effect
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2018-04-12T19:45:06Z ecraven: akkad: I've written very basic soap code that just munges some XML. I heartily dislike SOAP
2018-04-12T19:45:41Z ecraven: hm.. still not sure how to handle endianness for binary i/o... provide read-u16, read-u16-le *and* read-u16-be?
2018-04-12T19:45:45Z ecraven: that seems a bit... wasteful
2018-04-12T19:46:28Z wasamasa: what would read-u16 do?
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2018-04-12T19:56:08Z wasamasa: lol: https://www.reddit.com/r/scheme/comments/86my8f/10000_us_doller_reward_lisp_hackers/
2018-04-12T19:56:16Z wasamasa: I like the part where one award is chez-specific
2018-04-12T19:56:35Z wasamasa: and how three suggested projects are about chez
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2018-04-12T20:02:07Z pierpa_: How many US dollars is worth one doller?
2018-04-12T20:02:47Z wasamasa: nobody knows
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2018-04-12T20:04:01Z wasamasa: rudybot: holler for a doller
2018-04-12T20:04:04Z rudybot: wasamasa: https://www.reddit.com/r/scheme/comments/86my8f/10000_us_doller_reward_lisp_hackers/
2018-04-12T20:05:30Z pierpa_: lol
2018-04-12T20:05:33Z pierpa_: good bot
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2018-04-12T21:04:03Z ecraven: wasamasa: (read-u16 &optional port endianness)
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2018-04-12T21:04:23Z wasamasa: ecraven: so, what's its default value?
2018-04-12T21:04:24Z ecraven: defaulting to native endianness, probably
2018-04-12T21:04:31Z wasamasa: how would you find that out?
2018-04-12T21:04:39Z ecraven: the implementation would probably know?
2018-04-12T21:04:44Z wasamasa: really
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2018-04-12T21:05:22Z ecraven: the point is, you can count on read-u16 reading whatever write-u16 writes. if you want portability, pick one and pass it
2018-04-12T21:05:45Z wasamasa: if I query chicken-doc, nearly all regex results in procedures from an endian-blob egg I've never heard about
2018-04-12T21:05:59Z wasamasa: ah, there's a little-endian cond-expand feature
2018-04-12T21:06:00Z wasamasa: fun
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2018-04-12T21:06:46Z ecraven: hm.. srfi-68 is still in draft status? It's been quite some time
2018-04-12T21:07:47Z wasamasa: it's withdrawn here
2018-04-12T21:08:45Z ecraven: ah, thanks, first hit on google is not the right one
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2018-04-12T21:59:48Z duncanm: la la la
2018-04-12T22:01:32Z duncanm: who are the people setting up theschemer.org?
2018-04-12T22:01:41Z duncanm: with a blog post in English, French and Chinese
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2018-04-12T22:02:54Z duncanm: who is guenchi
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2018-04-12T22:09:07Z pierpa_: sounds like a chinese name
2018-04-12T22:10:13Z pierpa_: https://github.com/guenchi
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2018-04-12T22:12:40Z duncanm: Says Paris, France
2018-04-12T22:12:44Z duncanm: anyhow, weird
2018-04-12T22:13:23Z akkad: ecraven: I hope you get paid well for the list of tech you 'heartily dislike'. Are they hiring there? I've got a very long list that applies here. :P
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2018-04-12T22:22:52Z jcowan_: So what would be the best hygienic macro system for Common Lisp
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2018-04-12T22:35:37Z pierpa_: common lispers run away screaming at the word hygiene
2018-04-12T22:39:44Z edgar-rft: the most-hygienic macro system for Common Lisp is mud
2018-04-12T22:42:29Z pierpa_: ablutophobic-macros
2018-04-12T22:46:23Z qu1j0t3: if you don't roll around in filth, you can't build up your immune system
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2018-04-12T23:57:01Z jcowan: I think the best answer is explicit renaming, which falls back to CL macros very easily and (I think) has a portable implementation already
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2018-04-13T09:04:06Z werkin: I'm having an unbound variable error when using a procedure in a standard package. (Chicken — the egg is 'data-structures)
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2018-04-13T09:05:54Z werkin: This is what I get when I try to use (chop): http://lpaste.net/364743
2018-04-13T09:07:37Z werkin: Oh never mind, I was trying to do something stupid.
2018-04-13T09:08:04Z werkin: (map (print) (chop list n))
2018-04-13T09:11:13Z manumanumanu: so, apart from chibi, does any other scheme support r7rs libraries
2018-04-13T09:11:15Z manumanumanu: ?
2018-04-13T09:11:24Z manumanumanu: chicken does to some extent I believe?
2018-04-13T09:19:18Z manumanumanu: ah, gauche!
2018-04-13T09:24:34Z jcowan_: Lots.  Chibi, Chicken, Cyclone, Foment, Gauche, Guile, Husk, Kawa, Larceny, Mosh, Picrin, Racket, Rapid, Sagittarius
2018-04-13T09:24:42Z jcowan_: some full, some partial support
2018-04-13T09:25:24Z manumanumanu: does guile support the library form??
2018-04-13T09:26:00Z manumanumanu: no :( at least not documented
2018-04-13T09:28:11Z manumanumanu: I want my reference implementation for my transducer srfi proposal to be r7rs, that's why I'm asking. r7rs-small + the intermediate hash table srfi (125?) seems pretty reasonable
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2018-04-13T09:34:18Z ecraven: is there any difference between r6rs library and r7rs define-library?
2018-04-13T09:34:21Z ecraven: (besides the name)
2018-04-13T09:34:37Z greatscottttt: on the subject, does anyone have a good r7rs library example handy?
2018-04-13T09:34:40Z ecraven: i.e. could an r6rs implementation just alias `define-library' to `library'?
2018-04-13T09:35:16Z manumanumanu: ecraven: http://www.schemeworkshop.org/2014/papers/Kato2014.pdf
2018-04-13T09:35:26Z manumanumanu: implementing r7rs in r6rs paper from a scheme workshop
2018-04-13T09:35:52Z ecraven: manumanumanu: thanks!
2018-04-13T09:35:55Z ecraven: interesting ;)
2018-04-13T09:36:52Z manumanumanu: the answer seems to be "no"
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2018-04-13T10:11:37Z jcowan_: ecraven: Yes
2018-04-13T10:11:55Z jcowan_: the format of R6RS library is (library name exports imports random-forms)
2018-04-13T10:12:04Z jcowan_: whereas R7RS has a small non-Scheme language
2018-04-13T10:12:13Z ecraven: I thought it might work for simple cases, but it seems even that won't work
2018-04-13T10:12:20Z jcowan_: yeah, no
2018-04-13T10:12:26Z jcowan_: that's why the names are different
2018-04-13T10:14:30Z ecraven: there goes my plan of making chez r7rs in a simple way :D
2018-04-13T10:14:47Z ecraven: but of course, just aliasing the existing functions was always going to be the simple part
2018-04-13T10:26:09Z jcowan_: Larceny's modified psyntax understands both R6RS and R7RS
2018-04-13T10:27:33Z jcowan_: and then there's Rapid Scheme, obviously
2018-04-13T10:29:11Z jcowan_: whose whole raison d'etre is front-ending random Schemes with R7RS
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2018-04-13T10:30:09Z jcowan: "Programming languages should be implemented not by
2018-04-13T10:30:09Z jcowan: piling hack upon hack, but by removing the inefficiencies
2018-04-13T10:30:09Z jcowan: and restrictions that make additional hacks appear
2018-04-13T10:30:09Z jcowan: necessary." --Will Clinger
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2018-04-13T10:30:34Z johnnymacs: I am looking for simple systems that have been built in the lambda calculus
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2018-04-13T10:40:04Z johnnymacs: I am making a lambda calculus machine out of the s and k combinators and now I can make any lambda but I need to find some way to hold more than one thing at once
2018-04-13T10:40:43Z johnnymacs: Right now it's like there is 1 signle machine register that can hold any lambda but only one lambda at a time. So the trick is within that one lambda I have to have places to put things and places to put the current code being run
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2018-04-13T11:10:45Z elly: johnnymacs: perhaps this is useful: http://jwodder.freeshell.org/lambda.html
2018-04-13T11:17:46Z longshi: johnnymacs: well, you'd need to implement some sort of a heap for that
2018-04-13T11:18:23Z longshi: I don't know if someone tried doing that
2018-04-13T11:18:37Z longshi: But if you find it, i'd love to have a look too
2018-04-13T11:33:51Z johnnymacs: Well I am devising a way to make myself a stack
2018-04-13T11:34:20Z johnnymacs: I have cons
2018-04-13T11:35:10Z johnnymacs: So I need to make a function that takes a number, and depending on what number you gave it it does some operation on a list, then it accepts a number again
2018-04-13T11:36:17Z johnnymacs: basically I can make a list of functions and the "op code" gets the nth item in the list and executes it
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2018-04-13T12:16:41Z johnnymacs: Now I have nth so I can make a switch
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2018-04-13T12:18:07Z johnnymacs: Basically I can make a function that returns a list of functions
2018-04-13T12:18:35Z johnnymacs: so I can the function at the head of the list is add
2018-04-13T12:18:41Z johnnymacs: and the next function is subtract
2018-04-13T12:18:43Z johnnymacs: and the next is or
2018-04-13T12:18:46Z johnnymacs: and so on and so forth
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2018-04-13T12:29:02Z jcowan: or isn't a function, though
2018-04-13T12:29:14Z jcowan: you could create an or-function, but that wouldn't be Scheme's or
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2018-04-13T13:03:06Z johnnymacs: You can make or out of functions
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2018-04-13T13:05:30Z ecraven: only if you mean make a macro out of functions
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2018-04-13T14:59:14Z jcowan: I was thinking that as part of the predicate generic functions package it would be good to have define-generic-record-type
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2018-04-13T14:59:40Z jcowan: this is the same as define-record-type, except that the accessors and mutators are implemented as methods rather than procedures
2018-04-13T15:02:36Z vyzo: and are an order of mangnitude slower most likely :)
2018-04-13T15:04:27Z jcowan: generic functions are inherently slower than monomorphic ones; you are paying for convenience
2018-04-13T15:04:44Z jcowan: but by doing it this way, you don't have to provide record inheritance
2018-04-13T15:04:56Z jcowan: which interoperates badly with hygiene
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2018-04-13T16:06:17Z duncanm: Hmmm
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2018-04-13T17:11:42Z Labu: Hello
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2018-04-13T17:47:18Z wasamasa: manumanumanu, jcowan_: note that picrin supports defining them, but not actually imports
2018-04-13T17:47:34Z wasamasa: manumanumanu, jcowan_: this renders it rather useless for modular code
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2018-04-13T17:53:08Z jcowan_: wasamasa: What are them"?
2018-04-13T17:53:18Z jcowan_: er, What are "them"?
2018-04-13T17:53:19Z wasamasa: r7rs library forms
2018-04-13T17:53:21Z jcowan_: ah
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2018-04-14T12:31:29Z siraben: I just finally understood continuation passing style. What is meant by delimited continuations though? And how can one apply CPS transformations twice to achieve it?
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2018-04-14T14:11:36Z pjb: siraben: delimited continuations are continuations that don't leak outside of their lexical scope.  Ie. the dynamic scope represented by the delimited continuation is completed before exiting the lexical scope where it has been created.
2018-04-14T14:12:39Z pjb: siraben: well, this is my interpretation. Apparently there's a different definition: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Delimited_continuation
2018-04-14T14:20:21Z siraben: Yeah I don't understand Wikipedia's definition of needing to throw in reification and slices
2018-04-14T14:20:33Z siraben: pjb: Could you provide an example?
2018-04-14T14:20:39Z siraben: Purely with lambdas
2018-04-14T14:20:47Z siraben: I mean without needing shifts and rests
2018-04-14T14:20:49Z siraben: resets*
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2018-04-14T14:37:34Z pjb: siraben: I was thinking at continuation where the frame can stay on the stack.
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2018-04-14T18:28:28Z widp: Does scheme also have positional arguments like common lisp , denoted by ":symbol "?
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2018-04-14T18:34:57Z widp: I meant keyword arguments.
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2018-04-14T18:51:42Z gwatt: widp: no
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2018-04-14T19:07:08Z vyzo: some schemes do
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2018-04-14T19:51:42Z gwatt: but there's no widespread or official (rnrs) support for it.
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2018-04-14T19:56:32Z ecraven: also, they differ in semantics, so it's improbable that there will be any sort of unified interpretation of keyword arguments anytime soon
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2018-04-14T20:10:36Z Riastradh: Of course, there's only one reasonable choice of semantics, but everyone except Racket picked the crufty old unreasonable one from Common Lisp...
2018-04-14T20:10:39Z Riastradh hides
2018-04-14T20:11:49Z wasamasa: well, CHICKEN picked DSSSL-style ones
2018-04-14T20:12:36Z Riastradh: Yes, that's the unreasonable semantics.
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2018-04-14T20:13:03Z Riastradh: (Mere cosmetic differences between Common Lisp and DSSSL.)
2018-04-14T20:18:52Z gwatt: I think guile has something similar to racket's
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2018-04-14T20:19:22Z Riastradh: Oh?  That would be nice.
2018-04-14T20:19:32Z Riastradh: I hadn't heard of anyone else adopting that semantics.
2018-04-14T20:19:38Z gwatt: https://www.gnu.org/software/guile/manual/html_node/lambda_002a-and-define_002a.html#lambda_002a-and-define_002a
2018-04-14T20:19:38Z rudybot: http://teensy.info/5XEWpazpgz
2018-04-14T20:19:46Z Riastradh: But I'm out of the loop.
2018-04-14T20:19:55Z gwatt: I may be mis-remembering racket's keyword arguments
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2018-04-14T20:20:51Z Riastradh: Cursory glance suggests that uses the DSSSL/CL semantics, but it's not immediately clear without a closer reading.
2018-04-14T20:22:17Z vyzo: gerbil has racket-style optionals/keyword arguments
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2018-04-14T20:28:56Z Riastradh: Guile seems to have DSSSL/CL semantics, not Racket semantics.
2018-04-14T20:29:40Z Riastradh: scheme@(guile-user)> ((lambda* (x #:key (y 0)) (list x y)) #:y 5 3)
2018-04-14T20:29:41Z Riastradh: <unnamed port>:7:1: In procedure #<procedure e28020 at <current input>:7:1 (x #:key y)>:
2018-04-14T20:29:43Z Riastradh: <unnamed port>:7:1: Invalid keyword: 5
2018-04-14T20:31:23Z Riastradh: Does that work in Gerbil?
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2018-04-14T20:32:59Z Riastradh: Huh.  What are the RFC 5114 groups doing in Gerbil's libcrypto bindings?  What on earth would use those?
2018-04-14T20:34:50Z vyzo: it's for LibreSSL and older openssls that don't define them
2018-04-14T20:36:05Z vyzo: they are used for DH key exchange in rpc (when using encrypted rpc)
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2018-04-14T20:38:18Z vyzo: for the keyword question
2018-04-14T20:38:22Z vyzo: this works in gerbil:
2018-04-14T20:38:29Z vyzo: ((lambda (x y: (y 0)) (list x y)) y: 5 3) => (3 5)
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2018-04-14T21:43:45Z Riastradh: vyzo: What RPC system uses them?  Despite the misleading name, they are not designed for DH; they are a terrible choice for DH.
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2018-04-14T21:45:30Z wasamasa: Riastradh: why so?
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2018-04-14T21:54:04Z Riastradh: Generic finite-field DH protocols are typically designed under the assumption that the modulus is a prime p = 2q + 1 for prime q.  The RFC 5114 primes do not have this form, violating that assumption.
2018-04-14T21:55:12Z Riastradh: Here's a quick summary of what goes wrong if you use a Schnorr group (as the RFC 5114 primes induce) for DH: https://crypto.stackexchange.com/a/51312
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2018-04-14T21:55:49Z wasamasa: :<
2018-04-14T21:57:11Z wasamasa: this confirms once again that generation of suitable primes is easily the most annoying part of implementing these
2018-04-14T21:57:12Z Riastradh: The active attack is called the Lim-Lee attack, described by C.H. Lim and P.J. Lee, ` A key recovery attack on discrete log-based schemes using a prime order subgroup', CRYPTO'97, Springer LNCS 1294. <http://dasan.sejong.ac.kr/~chlim/pub/crypto97.ps>.
2018-04-14T21:58:09Z Riastradh: Not really.  For DH, if for some reason you insist on using finite-field DH (which is slow and huge and a pain to do in constant time) instead of elliptic-curve DH, there's basically no reason ever to use any other than the RFC 3526 primes.
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2018-04-14T22:00:24Z Riastradh: But RFC 5114 was obviously written by someone who was either confused or malicious, and it's hard to tell which.  There's also no provenance given for the specific numbers shown.  In RFC 3526, they are all semi-rigidly chosen from the smallest in a sequence of numbers produced by a specific justifiable formula, whose only sort of arbitrary part is the binary expansion of pi.
2018-04-14T22:01:10Z wasamasa: just using pre-defined primes wouldn't be generation though
2018-04-14T22:01:29Z wasamasa: anyway, I'm looking forward to implementing the ellipcit curve versions of these hopefully soon
2018-04-14T22:03:02Z Riastradh: It is _possible_ to use the RFC 5114 primes safely, but _harder_ and _slower_: you can reject a public key A outside the desired order-q subgroup by requiring A^{(p - 1)/q} = 1 (mod p), and/or always use a secret exponent that is a multiple of q, but generic FFDH-based protocols don't do this because it's more complicated and more expensive.
2018-04-14T22:03:33Z Riastradh: And yeah, there's basically no reason for new protocols to use finite-field DH; you should just use X25519.
2018-04-14T22:03:46Z Riastradh: Hmm.
2018-04-14T22:03:49Z Riastradh: I should clarify an earlier statement.
2018-04-14T22:04:11Z Riastradh: It _may be possible_ to use the RFC 5114 primes safely, if there's no _other_ funny business with the unexplained structure of the primes.
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2018-04-14T22:04:58Z Riastradh: In particular, the Lim-Lee attack on Schnorr groups can be thwarted by what I described, but who knows whether the unexplained structure is concealing another back door!  It's sketchy business.
2018-04-14T22:05:23Z Riastradh: vyzo: So please don't use the RFC 5114 primes if you can avoid it!  If you must use them, use them extremely carefully and consult a cryptographer to audit how you're using them.
2018-04-14T22:05:33Z Riastradh: Gotta run!
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2018-04-15T06:10:42Z vyzo: Riastradh: I plan to phase them out in favor of ECDHE
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2018-04-15T06:22:08Z vyzo: and ECDSA more to the point
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2018-04-15T15:42:14Z Riastradh: vyzo: I would recommend you forget generic ECDHE over arbitrary short Weierstrass curves and just use X25519, and forget ECDSA altogether and use Ed25519 instead.
2018-04-15T15:44:29Z vyzo: Riastradh: sure, I am considering using Curve25519/Ed25519
2018-04-15T15:44:44Z vyzo: point is that the DH protocol is an older design that is used temporarily
2018-04-15T15:44:54Z vyzo: it's oppurtunistic encryption mostly
2018-04-15T15:46:30Z vyzo: given how it doesn't have cetificates and is susceptible to MITM attacks
2018-04-15T15:46:39Z vyzo: (i am well aware of these issues :)
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2018-04-15T15:50:25Z jonaslund: MD4 and RC4 should be enough for everyone
2018-04-15T15:52:47Z wasamasa: lol
2018-04-15T15:52:59Z wasamasa: I'm looking forward to RC4 in the cryptopals challenges
2018-04-15T15:53:09Z wasamasa: aes-ctr gets a bit old as stream cipher
2018-04-15T15:55:40Z vyzo: old and boring is fine, as long as it's not creaky :)
2018-04-15T15:57:06Z wasamasa: despite this I found I didn't fully understand it yet
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2018-04-15T15:57:56Z wasamasa: I didn't realize until a few days ago that if you have two ciphertexts using the same key and nonce and one of them uses a chosen plaintext, you can just xor some buffers and retrieve the other plaintext
2018-04-15T15:58:12Z wasamasa: now, how do I visualize this properly?
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2018-04-16T13:53:29Z foof: ecraven: the separate form makes chez r7rs even easier - just provide a define-library macro that expands into library
2018-04-16T13:54:06Z ecraven: foof: I tried that, just edited syntax.ss, runs into problems later
2018-04-16T13:54:26Z ecraven: it seems the compiler does something to the form too. I don't know enough about the internals yet to understand what i
2018-04-16T13:54:29Z ecraven: is happening
2018-04-16T13:55:06Z foof: this is the downside of the chez approach to modules - with great power comes great... debugging
2018-04-16T13:55:23Z ecraven: ;D
2018-04-16T13:57:48Z gwatt: I think in r6rs you can't have a macro that expands to a library.
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2018-04-16T14:01:30Z foof: no, that's a chez extension
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2018-04-16T14:02:43Z jcowan: it's one of the few things that is neither forbidden nor required by r6rs, I believe
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2018-04-16T14:04:22Z TCZ: sicp is more advanced than htdp or little schemer?
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2018-04-16T14:11:06Z jcowan: they have different purposes
2018-04-16T14:11:16Z jcowan: sicp teaches programming through scheme
2018-04-16T14:11:24Z jcowan: htdp teaches program design
2018-04-16T14:12:04Z jcowan: tls is a tiny subset of sicp
2018-04-16T14:12:24Z cmaloney: tls == ?
2018-04-16T14:12:30Z jcowan: the little schemer
2018-04-16T14:12:33Z cmaloney: tx
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2018-04-16T14:13:18Z ecraven: sicp and htdp are both available for free online, I think? pick the one you like more, or ideally just read both ;D
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2018-04-16T15:36:59Z deuill: There's a texinfo version for Emacs on MELPA (M-x package-install sicp) or this interactive version online, if that's your cup of tea: https://xuanji.appspot.com/isicp. I've used the former, it's good.
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2018-04-16T17:31:01Z edgar-rft: The best thing on https://xuanji.appspot.com/isicp/ is the "Fork me on Github" banner. This encouriges me to fork and rewrite a new SICP version full of bullshit.
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2018-04-16T18:46:16Z jcowan: Does anyone know why Scheme cond bothers with the else keyword, when #t would do just as well?
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2018-04-16T18:49:39Z ecraven: jcowan: it just looks nicer?
2018-04-16T18:49:55Z jcowan: I guess
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2018-04-16T18:50:15Z jcowan: keywords generally seem unschemey to me
2018-04-16T18:50:38Z jcowan: that is, auxiliary keywords
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2018-04-16T18:52:48Z jcowan: that way lies CL's LOOP.
2018-04-16T18:52:53Z ecraven: r3rs already has (cond (else <sequence>)) ≡ (begin <sequence>)
2018-04-16T18:53:00Z ecraven: indeed
2018-04-16T18:53:21Z gwatt: I think "else" makes since for case statements.
2018-04-16T18:53:37Z gwatt: sense, not since...
2018-04-16T18:53:39Z ecraven: r2rs also has `else'
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2018-04-16T18:54:11Z ecraven: "The keyword or variable =else= may be used as a /guard/ to obtain the effect of a guard that always evaluates true."
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2018-04-16T18:54:28Z jcowan: yes, you do need it for case
2018-04-16T18:54:53Z gwatt: though maybe overloading _ for that would be nicer
2018-04-16T18:55:27Z ecraven: r1rs refers to MacLisp COND, not sure whether that had ELSE. it doesn't mention ELSE explicitly, as far as I can tell
2018-04-16T18:55:32Z ecraven: so it seems to have been introduced with r2rs
2018-04-16T18:55:59Z ecraven: well, you could still have plain #t (not in a list) for case
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2018-04-16T18:59:59Z gwatt: I think #t makes less sense for case as cond is evaluating the lhs for thruthiness and case is performing a member lookup
2018-04-16T19:01:15Z jcowan: I agree
2018-04-16T19:01:22Z jcowan: with both viewpoints
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2018-04-16T19:43:05Z gwatt: how many schemes allow bare symbols in the LHS of a case clause?
2018-04-16T19:43:07Z gwatt: I know chez does
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2018-04-16T19:57:54Z duncanm: yeah, why is it that the LHS has to be grouped?
2018-04-16T19:58:05Z duncanm: i wrote a case expr yesterday, and i had to look it up
2018-04-16T20:00:38Z wasamasa: what are you refering to, (cond (foo bar))?
2018-04-16T20:01:43Z wasamasa: what schemes would not accept that?
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2018-04-16T20:05:01Z gwatt: wasamasa: no, case
2018-04-16T20:05:08Z wasamasa: please continue
2018-04-16T20:05:10Z gwatt: (case [foo bar])
2018-04-16T20:06:06Z wasamasa: well, that's no surprise
2018-04-16T20:06:21Z wasamasa: in r5rs it states a case clause looks like ((<datum>*) <tail sequence>)
2018-04-16T20:17:31Z gwatt: wasamasa: Sure, I was just curious which schemes allowed a single value without parens.
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2018-04-16T23:20:12Z Zipheir: What's the rationale for symbol=? ? Is variadic symbol comparison common enough to warrant using something other than eqv?
2018-04-16T23:20:51Z Zipheir: Or is symbol=? reliably faster than the generic equality predicates?
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2018-04-17T04:13:21Z Bk123: Anyone willing to help out a noob understand the stream section of SICP a little better?
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2018-04-17T04:40:29Z rudybot: la la la
2018-04-17T04:40:41Z duncanm: dum de dum
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2018-04-17T04:53:50Z Zipheir: Bk123: What's confusing?
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2018-04-17T05:33:18Z fxdpnt: If I'm trying to develop a simple little command-line todo utility to learn scheme, what should I use to retrieve a line of user input? "(read)" is behaving strangely - on Guile, it is not waiting for user input, and I get an error "In procedure module-lookup: Unbound variable: user-input". On chicken, it does stop to retrieve a line from the user, but still the variable it is set to is unbound...
2018-04-17T05:33:27Z fxdpnt: http://lpaste.net/364896
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2018-04-17T05:40:24Z Riastradh: fxdpnt: You want let*, which goes sequentially through the variable bindings one by one, rather than let, which evaluates all of the right-hand sides before binding any of the variables.  You also want to put the if _inside_ the let* body; the variables it binds do not exist outside that body.
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2018-04-17T05:41:51Z aoh: Read-char and write-char are standard i/o operations. You can build read-line out of read-char.
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2018-04-17T10:28:34Z siraben: Can CPS transformations lead to parallelism in some day?
2018-04-17T10:28:36Z siraben: way*
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2018-04-17T10:34:22Z ventonegro: On the contrary, CPS fixes the order of evaluation early on
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2018-04-17T10:41:52Z siraben: So what type of transformation would I need to simulate parallelism?
2018-04-17T10:42:08Z siraben: Do I need an agenda?
2018-04-17T10:42:43Z siraben: But then it just runs the commands scheduled at a particular time in sequential/random order, and it gets ugly if those commands have side effects...
2018-04-17T10:43:16Z C-Keen: what's your goal?
2018-04-17T10:43:19Z siraben: ventonegro: I can write CPS functions by hand but have trouble writing a program to transform functions to CPS
2018-04-17T10:43:29Z siraben: Write a program that transforms functions to CPS
2018-04-17T10:43:34Z siraben: C-Keen: &
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2018-04-17T10:48:07Z C-Keen: I can recommend Appel's 'Compiling with Continuations'
2018-04-17T10:48:26Z siraben: How long is that book?
2018-04-17T10:48:56Z C-Keen: 272 pages
2018-04-17T10:55:16Z siraben: Nice
2018-04-17T10:55:21Z siraben: I'll look into it
2018-04-17T10:55:28Z siraben: What is it about primarily?
2018-04-17T10:57:59Z ventonegro: siraben: http://matt.might.net/articles/cps-conversion/
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2018-04-17T11:03:29Z C-Keen: siraben: the necessary transformations for compiling scheme to machine code
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2018-04-17T11:25:16Z siraben: ventonegro: I've read that, but it's a little hard to understand
2018-04-17T11:25:22Z siraben: C-Keen: I see, thanks!
2018-04-17T11:35:48Z siraben: C-Keen: Wow that book is a little pricey
2018-04-17T11:36:16Z siraben: ~ $100 for a 272 page book
2018-04-17T11:36:58Z C-Keen: libgen.io might have a copy
2018-04-17T11:37:27Z siraben: Ah that's the website
2018-04-17T11:37:37Z siraben: I was always using only sci-hub
2018-04-17T11:38:40Z siraben: C-Keen: Thanks for that
2018-04-17T11:39:02Z jonaslund: Appel's book is really nice
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2018-04-17T11:43:09Z siraben: What background would I need to have to get the most out of it?
2018-04-17T11:44:23Z jonaslund: having an idea of StandardML syntax is a benefit also the runtime characterisics of the implementation can help with some things (i dove deep into the book for particular purposes so i migh've skimmed the wrong parts there)
2018-04-17T11:44:31Z jonaslund: some basic compiler knowledge might help
2018-04-17T11:44:39Z jonaslund: don't think you need much more
2018-04-17T11:45:19Z jonaslund: (It was 3 years ago i went through it)
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2018-04-17T11:52:22Z siraben: StandardML? What's a guide to learn that?
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2018-04-17T11:59:55Z siraben: jonaslund: Do you have a PDF or recommended reading for ML?
2018-04-17T12:00:03Z siraben: So it's some meta-language...
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2018-04-17T12:00:56Z qu1j0t3: siraben: There are a few good books on it. ""ML for the Working Programmer", Paulson, is one
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2018-04-17T12:01:18Z qu1j0t3: siraben: there's even a Little MLer, if you are into that style
2018-04-17T12:01:57Z siraben: Something suitable for a high schooler?
2018-04-17T12:02:46Z qu1j0t3: most likely yes. it's not a complicated language.
2018-04-17T12:03:06Z qu1j0t3: of course things will go better if they haven't learned imperative already, but i guess that's too late
2018-04-17T12:03:33Z siraben: Oh I meant me
2018-04-17T12:03:36Z siraben: I'm a high schooler lol
2018-04-17T12:03:42Z qu1j0t3: :)
2018-04-17T12:03:45Z siraben: But I finished SICP and understand C so that's fine
2018-04-17T12:03:47Z qu1j0t3: i doubt you'll have any trouble with it
2018-04-17T12:03:57Z qu1j0t3: well, understanding C is definitely not helpful to understanding ML
2018-04-17T12:03:58Z siraben: What is it useful for?
2018-04-17T12:04:02Z qu1j0t3: but i think you'll manage anyway.
2018-04-17T12:04:08Z siraben: It looks more like Haskell
2018-04-17T12:04:09Z jonaslund: Robert Harpers ML book is free in a draft form, http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~rwh/isml/book.pdf
2018-04-17T12:04:22Z qu1j0t3: siraben: it's a general purpose language. high performance, strong emphasis on correctness.
2018-04-17T12:04:33Z siraben: Ah there's https://learnxinyminutes.com/docs/standard-ml/
2018-04-17T12:04:35Z qu1j0t3: jonaslund: +1
2018-04-17T12:04:56Z siraben: Thanks jonaslund
2018-04-17T12:05:06Z siraben: Why is this used in Appel's "Compiling with Continuations"
2018-04-17T12:05:11Z siraben: Was it not more appropriate to use a Lisp?
2018-04-17T12:05:20Z qu1j0t3: pretty much all FP literature is written using Haskell or ML syntax.
2018-04-17T12:05:25Z qu1j0t3: it's been that way for 25+ years.
2018-04-17T12:05:34Z siraben: Ah those darn Haskellers
2018-04-17T12:05:50Z siraben: Older papers tend to use Miranda
2018-04-17T12:05:52Z qu1j0t3: Haskell evolved from the ML family ofc
2018-04-17T12:05:58Z qu1j0t3: yes Miranda is in the ML family, as is Hope
2018-04-17T12:06:17Z siraben: I should get into learning Haskell again, it was difficult to understand FP from it the first time
2018-04-17T12:06:21Z siraben: Scheme made me understand FP
2018-04-17T12:06:25Z qu1j0t3: ML will probably help
2018-04-17T12:06:29Z siraben: Is Learn You a Haskell good as well?
2018-04-17T12:06:32Z qu1j0t3: since they are closely related.
2018-04-17T12:06:35Z qu1j0t3: siraben: not highly recommended
2018-04-17T12:06:50Z siraben: Why not?
2018-04-17T12:06:51Z jonaslund: siraben: If you want to go back to the roots of CPS you can always get one of the original reports on compiling scheme :)
2018-04-17T12:06:55Z qu1j0t3: siraben: I usually recommend Simon Thompson's "Haskell, The Craft of FP"
2018-04-17T12:07:05Z qu1j0t3: siraben: which teaches FP as well
2018-04-17T12:07:12Z qu1j0t3: siraben: but now there is haskellbook.com
2018-04-17T12:07:19Z qu1j0t3: siraben: both much better than LYAH by all accounts
2018-04-17T12:07:31Z siraben: What's not good about LYAH
2018-04-17T12:07:36Z siraben: Is it the pictures?
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2018-04-17T12:07:54Z siraben: Wow $59 to learn Haskell...
2018-04-17T12:07:56Z jonaslund: siraben: Appel's book is more appropriate to understand some practical considerations when optimizing
2018-04-17T12:08:16Z siraben: Is there a CS course like SICP that uses Haskell?
2018-04-17T12:08:30Z qu1j0t3: there are universities that do, but not common
2018-04-17T12:09:00Z qu1j0t3: siraben: are you in #haskell-beginners? You could ask in there
2018-04-17T12:09:21Z siraben: Right I'll look into that later.
2018-04-17T12:09:30Z siraben: ML first, then figuring out CPS transforms, then  Haskell
2018-04-17T12:09:33Z siraben: A lot to cover
2018-04-17T12:09:58Z siraben: I would like to write a toy Scheme compiler, so that's the ultimate goal
2018-04-17T12:09:59Z jonaslund: siraben: what is your target ?
2018-04-17T12:10:04Z siraben: ^
2018-04-17T12:10:07Z jonaslund: go back to the original scheme papers instead!
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2018-04-17T12:10:51Z jonaslund: and there's resources on the net (Take the time with Might's explanation)
2018-04-17T12:10:53Z jonaslund: oh also
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2018-04-17T12:11:01Z siraben: http://scheme2006.cs.uchicago.edu/11-ghuloum.pdf was pretty helpful
2018-04-17T12:12:45Z jonaslund: siraben: you might want to stop by on http://siek.blogspot.se/2012/07/crash-course-on-notation-in-programming.html?m=1 before going onto reading papers like matt mights
2018-04-17T12:13:22Z siraben: There's also this thing going with Category Theory, what is that exactly?
2018-04-17T12:13:33Z siraben: It's like a generalization of functions and types and algebras, right?
2018-04-17T12:14:15Z siraben: jonaslund: Yep I see simply typed lambda calculus there
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2018-04-17T16:29:07Z qu1j0t3:   jonaslund | go back to the original scheme papers instead!   // including Dybvig who has a lot about implementations
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2018-04-17T16:50:53Z jonaslund: I really find a good way to sort my papers directory
2018-04-17T16:51:19Z jonaslund: ic95-ps.pdf and rta03.ps doesn't say much :|
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2018-04-17T17:03:29Z qu1j0t3: haha yeah i generally try to rename them on receipt
2018-04-17T17:03:34Z jcowan: ditto
2018-04-17T17:03:51Z jcowan: and run gunzip/ps2pdf as well
2018-04-17T17:04:24Z jcowan: iwbni gunzip fell back to cat if the input is not compressed
2018-04-17T17:05:20Z jcowan: s/gunzip/zcat
2018-04-17T17:06:53Z jcowan: apparently zmore does that
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2018-04-18T11:38:23Z TCZ: forth
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2018-04-18T13:50:35Z qu1j0t3: not really
2018-04-18T13:59:41Z jcowan: someone should call their Forth implementation "Faring Forth"
2018-04-18T13:59:53Z jcowan: or Going Forth if the other seems too archaic
2018-04-18T14:00:08Z jcowan: pronounced to rhyme with "boing"
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2018-04-18T14:12:06Z qu1j0t3: that pun has been made. it's a book isn't it?
2018-04-18T14:12:32Z qu1j0t3: jcowan: in your case, "Holding Forth" seems appropriate
2018-04-18T14:12:50Z jcowan: Ah, the spear in my heart!
2018-04-18T14:13:13Z jcowan laughs
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2018-04-18T15:06:41Z duncanm: morning
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2018-04-18T15:46:21Z deuill: There's a book called 'Thinking Forth'. Brilliant book, and not only for the learning the language. It's available for free: http://thinking-forth.sourceforge.net/
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2018-04-18T15:56:41Z jcowan: looks interesting indeed
2018-04-18T15:56:49Z jcowan: So what's the difference between a friend and an old friend?
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2018-04-18T15:59:13Z jcowan: A friend will help you move.  An old friend will help you move the body.
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2018-04-18T16:17:16Z deuill: Better not kill an old friend then...
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2018-04-18T16:35:18Z edw: deuill: Only seven copies left of Thinking Forth on Amazon. Was eight before I (just) bought my copy.
2018-04-18T16:35:29Z deuill: ;)
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2018-04-18T17:15:30Z gwatt: Is there a "Venturing Forth" ?
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2018-04-18T17:47:25Z qu1j0t3: lol
2018-04-18T17:47:31Z qu1j0t3: yes, author Sally Forth
2018-04-18T17:47:46Z qu1j0t3: pretty sure every forth pun has been fully utilised
2018-04-18T17:47:54Z qu1j0t3: leaving 75% still to claim, i suppose
2018-04-18T17:48:21Z qu1j0t3 goes back to work on Ponzi Scheme
2018-04-18T17:59:25Z ecraven: hm.. for automating things, slot-value is actually much nicer than accessors :-/
2018-04-18T17:59:48Z ecraven: (for-each (lambda (slot) ...) '(a b c)) is much simpler than whatever you have to do with accessors
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2018-04-18T18:13:59Z gwatt: ecraven: it sounds like you want a list of functions that you map over and apply on a single object?
2018-04-18T18:14:37Z ecraven: gwatt: yes, but I also need to call the mutators.. so I'd have to pass two longer function names instead of one shorter slot name
2018-04-18T18:15:13Z gwatt: ah
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2018-04-18T18:15:53Z ecraven: I think I understand the tradeoffs, just saying that in this case, it's a *lot* more code to make accessors work instead of the (imho worse) slot-value
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2018-04-18T18:19:21Z gwatt: Fiar enough
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2018-04-18T18:21:10Z jcowan: ecraven: That only makes sense if slots a, b, and c are somehow uniform, but typically they have entirely different purposes
2018-04-18T18:22:18Z ecraven: jcowan: in this case, I'm merging two records. they have some 25 slots. I want to say: for all these slots, copy the value from one record into the other
2018-04-18T18:22:33Z jcowan: Ah yes, the Cobol statement MOVE CORRESPONDING A TO B
2018-04-18T18:23:07Z ecraven: I've seem to need variations of this all the time, e.g. when writing things like persistent records
2018-04-18T18:23:23Z ecraven: I'll need to look into that, my Cobol knowledge is severly limited
2018-04-18T18:24:16Z gwatt: 25 fields sounds like a bunch
2018-04-18T18:24:52Z ecraven: just your usual run-of-the-mill CRUD web application
2018-04-18T18:25:00Z ecraven: that's just one record type, I have others with about 50
2018-04-18T18:25:02Z jcowan: One wonders why every language with records/structs doesn't have such a thing, as the compiler knows enough to do it as byte moves
2018-04-18T18:25:35Z ecraven: yea, so many languages don't offer a proper clone function either
2018-04-18T18:26:03Z jcowan: It's inherently ill-specified.  It ends up meaning "Clone what I want to clone, and share the rest."
2018-04-18T18:27:06Z jcowan: however, what you want can be done by passing a list of accessors, I think
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2018-04-18T18:27:56Z ecraven: well, you either need lenses, or reader+writer, I think?
2018-04-18T18:28:09Z ecraven: I'd really love a coherent and fully integrated lenses proposal for Scheme :-/
2018-04-18T18:28:15Z jcowan: yes, accessor+mutator works
2018-04-18T18:28:29Z ecraven: but that's very verbose :-/
2018-04-18T18:28:49Z jcowan: that's partly because of the lack of reflection in SRFI 9
2018-04-18T18:29:28Z ecraven: indeed, with reflection, I'd have something like slot-value
2018-04-18T18:29:35Z ecraven: or just slot-reader/writer
2018-04-18T18:29:58Z ecraven: good point, we should try to add some record reflection to r7rs-large
2018-04-18T18:30:05Z gwatt: I think r6rs records allow reflection
2018-04-18T18:30:27Z ecraven: gwatt: I think every Scheme has some reflection capability for records, it's just not standardised
2018-04-18T18:30:32Z jcowan: also SRFI 99
2018-04-18T18:31:14Z jcowan: a version of SRFI 99 without inheritance (which gets you into trouble vis-a-vis hygienic renaming) would be a Good Thing
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2018-04-18T18:31:26Z ecraven: totally agreed ;)
2018-04-18T18:32:37Z gwatt: r6rs has (rnrs record inspection) which defines introspection capabilities
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2018-04-18T18:33:08Z jcowan: yes
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2018-04-18T19:04:44Z gwatt: how does record inheritance cause hygiene problems?
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2018-04-18T19:06:43Z jcowan: because it is unclear whether slot names should be hygienic or non-hygienic
2018-04-18T19:11:07Z Riastradh: Obviously everything should be hygienic!  If it's unclear, that's because you didn't wash the dirt off it, you unhygienic tramp.
2018-04-18T19:12:01Z gwatt: everything should be hygienic ... except for these parts over here. Don't look at them!
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2018-04-18T19:23:34Z rjungemann: @ecraven I love lenses in Racket and Clojure. So great when you want to track previous states of an app. A spec for zippers would be nice too ;¬)
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2018-04-18T21:28:34Z ecraven: rjungemann: I still haven't seen a properly integrated proposal :-/ I'd love lenses that don't need lens-ref (and ideally not even lens-set!)
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2018-04-18T21:39:41Z jcowan_: It looks to me like lenses should be analogous to comparators (that is, they are another type class)
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2018-04-18T21:43:29Z jcowan_: Part of the problem is that R7RS-large doesn't have a stable set of data structures yet
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2018-04-18T21:55:25Z jcowan_: one idea is to identify a lens with its accessor and keep track of accessor/mutator pairs globally
2018-04-18T21:55:35Z jcowan_: see srfi 17 and srfi 123
2018-04-18T21:56:15Z Zipheir: Does anyone know of a good intro source on lenses? Most papers on the topic seem to assume complete familiarity.
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2018-04-18T23:00:25Z jcowan: Zipheir: https://medium.com/@dtipson/functional-lenses-d1aba9e52254 is Javascript-related, but it's reasonable
2018-04-18T23:00:46Z jcowan: and makes no assumptions about knowing lenses already
2018-04-18T23:01:31Z jcowan: https://docs.racket-lang.org/lens/lens-intro.html is also decent
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2018-04-19T00:56:08Z Zipheir: jcowan: Thanks, the racket docs do indeed look decent.
2018-04-19T00:56:33Z jcowan: Great
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2018-04-19T02:22:06Z stategonads: I would expect this to give the result "john", but it looks like name is being treated as a symbol? (cdr (assoc "name" (let ((name "john")) '(("name" . name))))
2018-04-19T02:26:48Z pierpa: '(( anything )) is a literal constant
2018-04-19T02:27:58Z pierpa: you want either (list (cons "name" name)) or, equivalently `(("name" . ,name))
2018-04-19T02:31:03Z stategonads: pierpa: ahhhh that was it. Was thinking I should try that. Thanks!
2018-04-19T02:31:14Z pierpa: ;)
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2018-04-19T10:55:21Z siraben:  /join vim
2018-04-19T10:55:33Z siraben: Oops
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2018-04-19T11:10:07Z thomasd: Hi
2018-04-19T11:11:54Z thomasd: I'm looking for a combinator for predicate functions.  e.g. (or-combinator f1 f2 ... fn) returns (lambda (x) (or (f1 x) (f2 x) ... (fn x))) .  Is there a standard module (srfi xyz) including such combinators?
2018-04-19T11:20:48Z elly: not that I know of
2018-04-19T11:20:54Z elly: it would be useful if there was
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2018-04-19T11:22:04Z thomasd: I'm quite new to scheme, but it seems like it shouldn't be that hard?
2018-04-19T11:22:19Z elly: no, it's not hard to write such functions if you need them
2018-04-19T11:22:47Z thomasd: maybe I'll give it a try with a macro... the problem came up trying to write sxpath queries
2018-04-19T11:23:17Z elly: I'm not sure a macro is necessary
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2018-04-19T11:25:05Z elly: SRFI 1 `any' and `every' are useful
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2018-04-19T11:26:04Z elly: if you wish to figure it out for yourself, don't click this :) but here's a model implementation of one such combinator: <https://bpaste.net/show/fc84634309cb>
2018-04-19T11:27:25Z thomasd: ok thanks! I'll not click that ;-)
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2018-04-19T12:45:02Z nedbat: i have a question about scoping. I'm using guile.  in this program "(let ((x 1)) (+ x 10))", x is local to the let block.  + is also a name, what is it called? global?
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2018-04-19T13:07:25Z jcowan: nedbat: Yes
2018-04-19T13:09:14Z nedbat: jcowan: thanks.  And that name is determined to be a global via lexical scoping, since the name isn't declared in any other enclosing block?
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2018-04-19T13:13:18Z jcowan: just so
2018-04-19T13:13:45Z jcowan: it is implicitly imported into the global environment when Guile starts, along with many other identifiers and syntax keywords.
2018-04-19T13:13:46Z longshi: nedbat: also maybe called a top-level variable
2018-04-19T13:13:54Z jcowan: s/identifiers/variables
2018-04-19T13:14:01Z longshi: but it's the same thing
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2018-04-19T20:32:17Z duncanm: la la la
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2018-04-19T20:34:33Z nedbat: is there a form of (define x 1) I can use where x is a computed name?
2018-04-19T20:34:52Z wasamasa: you'll have to use macros for that
2018-04-19T20:35:02Z aeth: sounds like an easy macro, though
2018-04-19T20:35:03Z nedbat: wasamasa: do you have a quick example or link?
2018-04-19T20:35:08Z wasamasa: nope
2018-04-19T20:35:14Z wasamasa: syntax-rules won't do it
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2018-04-19T20:35:35Z wasamasa: so, any meaningful example will either be r6rs or non-standard
2018-04-19T20:35:43Z aeth: probably non-standard
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2018-04-19T20:37:42Z aeth: using CL's defmacro to generate Scheme with it, I think it would be something like: (defmacro define-define (x value) (let ((foo (foo x))) `(define ,foo ,value))) off of the top of my head
2018-04-19T20:37:59Z aeth: A very-CL-inspired defmacro would just turn that into (defmacro (define-define x value) ...)
2018-04-19T20:39:07Z nedbat: wasamasa, aeth: if that wouldn't work, is there some other way to define a global name with a computed name?
2018-04-19T20:39:18Z wasamasa: none that I know of
2018-04-19T20:39:37Z wasamasa: the general advice is to use syntax-rules and pass your desired identifiers in
2018-04-19T20:39:44Z wasamasa: so, no aif, but and-let* is doable :>
2018-04-19T20:40:27Z wasamasa: it's funny how define-record is like the only thing schemers like enough to violate that rule for
2018-04-19T20:40:37Z nedbat: wasamasa: thanks, i know almost nothing about scheme, but am exploring the implications of lexical scoping, and scheme seems like a good place to do it.
2018-04-19T20:41:13Z wasamasa: IIRC there was a lengthy discussion on the nature of define-record identifiers
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2018-04-19T20:46:20Z nedbat: i'm surprised there isn't some way to affect the global namespace like that
2018-04-19T20:47:07Z wasamasa: I'm surprised you're surprised a minimal programming language is... minimal
2018-04-19T20:47:09Z pierpa: usually there is. Only not in *standard* scheme
2018-04-19T20:47:16Z nedbat: wasamasa: true :)
2018-04-19T20:47:42Z wasamasa: I can count the times I needed such a thing in elisp on one hand
2018-04-19T20:47:58Z pierpa: I can count up to 0
2018-04-19T20:49:01Z nedbat: wasamasa: right, this is a completely artificial thing i'm trying to do
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2018-04-19T20:49:24Z wasamasa: I never needed it in clojure
2018-04-19T20:49:49Z jcowan: nedbat: Affect the global namespace how?
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2018-04-19T20:50:45Z scheme_rzadzi: ;)
2018-04-19T20:51:03Z nedbat: jcowan: i would like a small sample that has (+ xyz 1), where xyz is a global, but the identifier xyz doesn't appear in the source file.
2018-04-19T20:51:23Z nedbat: jcowan: so I wanted something like (define xyz 1), but compute the name xyz
2018-04-19T20:52:00Z jcowan: (eval '(define ,name 1))
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2018-04-19T20:52:16Z jcowan: technically that is only portable to R7RS systems, but many R5RS systems support it too, I think
2018-04-19T20:52:29Z wasamasa: that will only work in that specific eval environment, no?
2018-04-19T20:52:38Z wasamasa: also, no backquote
2018-04-19T20:52:38Z nedbat: jcowan: interesting.  What part of that is not in the standard?
2018-04-19T20:52:55Z jcowan: yes, I meant backquote
2018-04-19T20:53:09Z jcowan: the ability to evaluate defines
2018-04-19T20:53:38Z jcowan: https://bitbucket.org/cowan/r7rs-wg1-infra/src/default/EvalDefine.md <-- which Schemes support it to a greater or lesser degree
2018-04-19T20:54:09Z jcowan: (eval `(define ,name 1))
2018-04-19T20:54:44Z nedbat: jcowan: thanks
2018-04-19T20:55:40Z jcowan: That repo contains a lot of files explaining how different Schemes handle various non-portable and supposedly-portable constructs
2018-04-19T20:55:52Z wasamasa: is interaction-environment even a thing outside the repl?
2018-04-19T20:56:02Z jcowan: the root file is ImplementationContrasts.md
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2018-04-19T20:56:30Z jcowan: wasamasa: I haven't tested it with compiled code, but there is definitely no requirement that it *not* work.
2018-04-19T20:56:41Z wasamasa: it just doesn't make any sense to me
2018-04-19T20:56:53Z wasamasa: what kind of interaction would there even be
2018-04-19T20:57:57Z jcowan: It's just a mutable environment that exists
2018-04-19T20:58:10Z jcowan: try compiling this with Chicken:
2018-04-19T20:58:11Z jcowan: (define name 'xyz)
2018-04-19T20:58:11Z jcowan: (eval `(define ,name 32) (interaction-environment))
2018-04-19T20:58:11Z jcowan: (print name)
2018-04-19T20:58:11Z jcowan: (print xyz)
2018-04-19T20:58:16Z jcowan: it works fine
2018-04-19T20:59:36Z jcowan: furthermore, (print (eval 'name (interaction-environment))) also works, which shows that name is in that environment.
2018-04-19T21:03:42Z nedbat: jcowan: thanks this has been very helpful
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2018-04-19T21:16:56Z Zipheir: Why not define some global dictionary structure and lookup names in that? That seems far simpler.
2018-04-19T21:18:02Z nedbat: Zipheir: this isn't for a real purpose, it's for exploring how lexical scoping works.
2018-04-19T21:18:33Z nedbat: Zipheir: it's interesting to me that the name xyz can be determined to be global, even a modifiable global, without the identifier xyz appearing in the source file.
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2018-04-19T21:21:49Z jcowan: That's why we say "Eval is evil"
2018-04-19T21:22:01Z jcowan: it lets you do perverse things.
2018-04-19T21:22:12Z jcowan: Some Lisps, but not CL or Scheme, even let eval change the value of a lexical variable
2018-04-19T21:25:18Z Zipheir: nedbat: Understood. The global environment is sort of the Twilight Zone of lexical scoping, IIUC.
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2018-04-21T04:30:24Z siraben: The only game I've ever written in Scheme is https://siraben.github.io/brownies/
2018-04-21T04:30:55Z siraben: I just heard about this Game Jam, anyone doing it in Scheme?
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2018-04-22T00:25:03Z duncanm: what do people think about LET-VALUES* vs RECEIVE?
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2018-04-22T00:29:34Z Zipheir`: You mean let*-values?
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2018-04-22T01:35:37Z duncanm: oh, yeah
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2018-04-22T02:32:00Z Zipheir`: (receive (a b) (foo) (receive (c d) (bar a b) ...) is a little nicer looking, IMHO, than (let*-values (((a b) (foo)) ((c d) (bar a b))) ...)
2018-04-22T02:33:59Z Zipheir`: But for more than two bindings (i.e. more two nested receive expressions) let*-values is obviously nicer. But that kind of complex binding structure probably isn't that commonly needed.
2018-04-22T02:37:48Z duncanm: right
2018-04-22T02:38:01Z duncanm: any opinions on SRFI-60 hash tables vs R6RS hash tables?
2018-04-22T02:39:21Z duncanm: oh, i mean SRFI 69
2018-04-22T02:39:29Z duncanm: and now I see there's also SRFI 125
2018-04-22T02:40:06Z Zipheir`: I haven't played with any of those yet. Which do you prefer?
2018-04-22T02:40:15Z duncanm: i've only used 69
2018-04-22T02:40:21Z duncanm: it looks like 125 is compatible with 69
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2018-04-22T02:54:31Z duncanm: anyone got the emacs thing for making receive indent properly?
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2018-04-22T02:57:33Z duncanm: found it - http://community.schemewiki.org/?Emacs
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2018-04-22T04:07:23Z jcowan: 125 is meant to be a superset of 69, and it is also pretty compatible (up to procedure names) with R6RS
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2018-04-22T19:28:30Z TheGreekOwl: Greetings?
2018-04-22T19:30:56Z wasamasa: yow
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2018-04-22T19:32:09Z amz3: tp/
2018-04-22T19:32:12Z amz3: o§
2018-04-22T19:32:15Z amz3: o/
2018-04-22T19:32:18Z TheGreekOwl: ?
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2018-04-22T19:32:36Z amz3 rise right hand
2018-04-22T19:33:22Z edgar-rft: oink! (°(..)°)
2018-04-22T19:40:56Z longshi: o7
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2018-04-22T19:41:17Z wasamasa: is that someone scratching their head?
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2018-04-22T19:45:42Z longshi: it's like o/ but easier to type
2018-04-22T19:46:01Z longshi: i mean, i got used to it :)
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2018-04-22T19:54:52Z elly: it looks like a person saluting
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2018-04-22T21:20:18Z light2yellow: if I define a function inside a let statement, I cannot use it outside of let. is this normal or am I doing something wrong? (let ((x 1)) (define foo (lambda (y) (print y)))). (foo 3) says foo is unbound. using chicken
2018-04-22T21:20:38Z wasamasa: FWIW, this is undefined behavior
2018-04-22T21:20:50Z wasamasa: what you're seeing is an internal define
2018-04-22T21:20:58Z wasamasa: these are supported as the first thing inside a define
2018-04-22T21:21:13Z wasamasa: anywhere else and you can run into weird bugs or errors
2018-04-22T21:22:30Z wasamasa: if you want to define a function globally, put the define at top-level
2018-04-22T21:22:57Z gwatt: especially since you don't use x inside of foo
2018-04-22T21:23:34Z wasamasa: (let () (define (cons x y) ...)) is a perfectly fine way to temporarily redefine stuff without breakage
2018-04-22T21:24:46Z wasamasa: sorry, it's not undefined behavior, something like (define (foo) (bar) (define (baz) ...) ...) would be
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2018-04-22T21:32:53Z light2yellow: okay, so, in common lisp I can write (let ((x 1)) (defun foo (y) (list x y))) and when I do (foo 5) it yields (1 5), also when I do (let ((x 3)) (foo 5)) I still receive (1 5), so this, I guess, means thatcommon lisp is lexically scoped. but I read that scheme (or at least some of its implementations) are dynamically scoped, so they would yield (3 5) above, so I went to try to replicate this behaviour. if in
2018-04-22T21:32:55Z light2yellow: scheme I do (let ((x 1)) (define foo (lambda (y) (list x y)))), both (foo 5) and (let ((x 3)) (foo 5)) would fail. so, the question is, why are they failing and what is different from CL here?
2018-04-22T21:34:40Z light2yellow: or this means that when I define() a function inside let() it is defined only in that let()'s scope?
2018-04-22T21:35:56Z gwatt: scheme is strictly lexically scoped, CL actually allows dynamic scoping.
2018-04-22T21:35:56Z Kooda: Scheme is the lexically-scoped variant here. Yes, the function is only defined in the let.
2018-04-22T21:37:05Z light2yellow: ah, okay. then why doesn't the second CL example yield (3 5), i.e. the changed from the definition time value?
2018-04-22T21:37:24Z light2yellow: or that is implementation-defined?
2018-04-22T21:37:28Z Zipheir: light2yellow: See 'Internal Definitions', r7rs 5.3.2
2018-04-22T21:38:00Z Zipheir: light2yellow: define inside let is local to the let body.
2018-04-22T21:39:52Z wasamasa: light2yellow: elisp is the dynamically scoped one
2018-04-22T21:40:08Z wasamasa: light2yellow: scheme is the one that brought the idea of lexical scoping to the masses, including CL
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2018-04-22T21:42:56Z light2yellow: Zipheir: from that example I also see scheme allows forward declarations, i.e. late-binded, is that how it's called?
2018-04-22T21:44:20Z light2yellow: wasamasa: ah, thanks
2018-04-22T21:45:52Z Zipheir: light2yellow: Certainly at top-level. I'm trying to find something in the report about the case with internal defines...
2018-04-22T21:47:53Z longshi: okay, so i'll admit i'm quite new to programming,  only recently i started using scheme(s), and generally am an amateur--but i dabbled with a few different languages (Python, Ruby, C, recently Golang), have written a few useful-for-me scripts and feel like i know a thing or two--but as i learn scheme, i get baffled and confused. Hence a question (sorry if this is inappropriate, i'm honestly curious): Why do
2018-04-22T21:47:55Z longshi: people still use ruby or python when there are even-higher-level but SO MUCH FASTER scheme implementations? Why would you recommend python, not guile or chez?
2018-04-22T21:48:22Z wasamasa: because there's far more resources, libraries, people out there using it
2018-04-22T21:48:27Z wasamasa: ever heard of network effects?
2018-04-22T21:48:36Z longshi: Is it really just brackets and libraries?
2018-04-22T21:48:42Z gwatt: light2yellow: In any given scope (top-level, let, lambda, library) you can think of defines as behaving like the entire scope is actually inside of a letrec or letrec*
2018-04-22T21:48:46Z longshi: well, yeah
2018-04-22T21:48:50Z wasamasa: familiarity is important
2018-04-22T21:49:17Z wasamasa: it took decades for higher-order functions to become popular enough for freaking java to add lambda support
2018-04-22T21:49:37Z longshi: funny you mention java
2018-04-22T21:49:54Z light2yellow: need to figure out what is letrec first, one moment
2018-04-22T21:50:02Z wasamasa: and no, speed isn't the only concern
2018-04-22T21:50:13Z gwatt: light2yellow: ah, that would certainly help
2018-04-22T21:50:18Z wasamasa: light2yellow: if I want to do machine learning, I'd be dead in the water with any scheme
2018-04-22T21:50:22Z wasamasa: err, longshi
2018-04-22T21:50:29Z longshi: because i just had this thought that all it would take people to use lisp is for someone to sell it to Sun :D
2018-04-22T21:50:38Z wasamasa: Sun is dead
2018-04-22T21:51:02Z gwatt: There's clojure, kawa, and abcl if you want a JVM lisp
2018-04-22T21:51:20Z wasamasa: sure and clojure is the closest to being useful for real-world stuff
2018-04-22T21:51:29Z longshi: Wow. Life is weird
2018-04-22T21:52:07Z wasamasa: I still prefer kawa for non-server programming
2018-04-22T21:52:22Z Zipheir: For some reason, 'good idea' = 'academic toy', but 'good idea' + JVM = 'real world supertool' :)
2018-04-22T21:53:58Z longshi: Okay, got it--programmers are humans too. They believe in marketing.
2018-04-22T21:54:23Z wasamasa: lol
2018-04-22T21:54:43Z Zipheir: Believe marketing, more likely.
2018-04-22T21:55:00Z longshi: yep, sorry, not a native speaker
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2018-04-22T21:55:08Z wasamasa: it might be surprising, but not everyone enjoys creating libraries in their spare time
2018-04-22T21:55:08Z longshi: and it's late
2018-04-22T21:55:32Z wasamasa: ask yourself, do you really want to implement a json parser just because you chose a less than popular scheme?
2018-04-22T21:55:36Z Zipheir: longshi: No, I'm joking. They believe the hype, I mean.
2018-04-22T21:55:38Z light2yellow: btw, regarding r7rs, what is the canonical link to it? I found http://www.larcenists.org/Documentation/Documentation0.98/r7rs.pdf but I am a in a little disbelief that it's the official one
2018-04-22T21:56:31Z Zipheir: light2yellow: That's the one.
2018-04-22T21:57:09Z longshi: wasamasa: well, yeah, but you have a few "bigger" dialects, with, as far as i understand it, quite good library support, right? Mentioned chez and guile, racket, chicken?
2018-04-22T21:57:42Z wasamasa: longshi: chez doesn't have such a thing
2018-04-22T21:58:25Z wasamasa: longshi: if I make things slightly more exotic, most if not all will drop out
2018-04-22T21:58:34Z wasamasa: longshi: while I still find a library for that in java or python
2018-04-22T21:59:00Z Zipheir: longshi: I think the best answer to your original question is that Scheme syntax is unfamiliar. I've met many programmers who know nothing more about Lisp than 'it's weird and scary'
2018-04-22T21:59:49Z wasamasa: longshi: scheme is not a language where you just slap things together and most of the work has been done for you
2018-04-22T22:00:02Z wasamasa: longshi: that's a problem if you want to pose it as an alternative to such languages
2018-04-22T22:00:42Z Zipheir: wasamasa: That's not a problem with the language. That's how people implement it.
2018-04-22T22:00:51Z longshi: yeah, got it. Thanks for the response--also, you mention chez library support
2018-04-22T22:01:01Z longshi: I found this thunderchez thing
2018-04-22T22:01:17Z longshi: And it has plenty of srfis
2018-04-22T22:01:25Z gwatt: Yeah, there are a few people cranking out libraries for chez
2018-04-22T22:01:38Z longshi: and a package manager even
2018-04-22T22:01:41Z wasamasa: Zipheir: it doesn't help that there's way too many separate communities with far less manpower than there should be
2018-04-22T22:01:44Z longshi: http://ravensc.com/
2018-04-22T22:01:47Z gwatt: longshi: 2, actually
2018-04-22T22:01:54Z longshi: haven't used, but landing page looks nice xD
2018-04-22T22:01:54Z Zipheir: wasamasa: Indeed.
2018-04-22T22:02:23Z gwatt: though I haven't really looked at ravensc or akku (which is a different package manager)
2018-04-22T22:02:27Z wasamasa: it doesn't help that there's three standards for beginners to pick from
2018-04-22T22:02:31Z Zipheir: wasamasa: Honestly, I still like the Scheme ecosystem better than the one-compiler-to-rule-them-all Haskell situation.
2018-04-22T22:02:33Z wasamasa: all of this screams hobbyist
2018-04-22T22:02:53Z wasamasa: and that's fine for the kind of projects I work on
2018-04-22T22:02:57Z longshi: Well, i dunno. As a fresh schemer, I'm optimistic. It's just a fast, simple, nice-to-use language.
2018-04-22T22:03:09Z wasamasa: speed is a property of the implementation
2018-04-22T22:03:11Z longshi: or rather, implementations that are such
2018-04-22T22:03:21Z longshi: yeah, sorry for not being clear
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2018-04-22T22:04:04Z longshi: Although, I agree with you that lisp is unfamiliar in the beginnning.
2018-04-22T22:04:14Z longshi: I got used to it using emacs
2018-04-22T22:04:23Z wasamasa: I even have difficulties recommending tutorials and books for scheme beginners
2018-04-22T22:04:26Z longshi: And so it wasn't that scary when i started learning scheme
2018-04-22T22:04:34Z wasamasa: I myself learned it from the standard because I've come from elisp
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2018-04-22T22:05:21Z Zipheir: wasamasa: 'Scheme is slow' is a myth, and there are plenty of slower languages that are used in real-world bogus software.
2018-04-22T22:05:23Z longshi: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=byofGyW2L10 that's pretty good, got me hooked
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2018-04-22T22:05:43Z longshi: and there's little schemer
2018-04-22T22:05:49Z wasamasa: Zipheir: which isn't what I wrote
2018-04-22T22:05:56Z qu1j0t3: "Programming in Scheme", Abelson & Eisenberg, is pretty good. https://www.amazon.ca/Programming-Scheme-Michael-Eisenberg/dp/0894261150
2018-04-22T22:06:06Z longshi: which i haven't yet finished because i try to honestly do the exercises myself
2018-04-22T22:06:12Z longshi: but i will
2018-04-22T22:06:23Z longshi: And I started SICP, it's fantastic so far
2018-04-22T22:06:37Z longshi: And guile info page is plenty good
2018-04-22T22:07:05Z longshi: So i, as a noob, cannot complain for lack of stuff to read.
2018-04-22T22:07:49Z Zipheir: Yeah, Scheme has a lot of fantastic reading material, compared to most languages.
2018-04-22T22:07:51Z longshi: And I've heard about it "Realm of Racket" book--it's supposed to be good too, but i haven't used racket and so didn't buy the book. Guile is fine.
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2018-04-22T22:08:34Z Zipheir: longshi: Have you read 'Little Schemer' and the other Friedman/<hacker name here> books?
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2018-04-22T22:09:26Z wasamasa: Realm of Racket is a rewrite of Land of Lisp, so not terribly good for learning
2018-04-22T22:09:29Z longshi: I'm working through 'The little schemer' right now
2018-04-22T22:09:33Z wasamasa: SICP is about CS, not learning
2018-04-22T22:09:44Z longshi: I'm in the middle of it
2018-04-22T22:09:46Z wasamasa: The Little Schemer, I dunno, it's very focused on recursion
2018-04-22T22:09:47Z longshi: sorta
2018-04-22T22:09:49Z Zipheir: longshi: Great.
2018-04-22T22:10:02Z longshi: Well, yeah, which is a major thing
2018-04-22T22:10:04Z wasamasa: I haven't looked at Programming in Scheme yet
2018-04-22T22:10:17Z longshi: Especially if you've programmed with something else
2018-04-22T22:10:22Z Zipheir: It's really a fun and interesting book. If you've done SICP it's familiar stuff, but it's just delightful either way.
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2018-04-22T22:10:45Z longshi: Like most people looking at scheme language
2018-04-22T22:10:53Z longshi: *dialects
2018-04-22T22:11:11Z longshi: By that I mean: you have to be somehow familiar with progr
2018-04-22T22:11:23Z longshi: *programming to even know about lisp
2018-04-22T22:12:41Z Zipheir: That's sort of the paradox: you've got to learn in some language, but the language affects your understanding.
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2018-04-22T22:13:12Z Zipheir: In that sense, Scheme is a great one to learn in.
2018-04-22T22:13:42Z gwatt: universities used to use lisps as introductory languages
2018-04-22T22:14:05Z wasamasa: mine had a lecturer who thought it was OK to freely mix exercises from SICP and HtDP
2018-04-22T22:14:12Z longshi: yeah, that's how SICP got written right? MIT used it as an programming intro
2018-04-22T22:14:14Z wasamasa: that was a confusing lecture
2018-04-22T22:15:00Z gwatt: I haven't gotten that far into sicp, and have never looked at htdp.
2018-04-22T22:15:32Z Zipheir: HTDP?
2018-04-22T22:15:38Z longshi: what's htdp?
2018-04-22T22:15:39Z gwatt: How to Design Programs
2018-04-22T22:15:44Z Zipheir: Ah, that one.
2018-04-22T22:15:47Z longshi: googling it now
2018-04-22T22:16:25Z light2yellow: so, letrec is used for in-place functions?
2018-04-22T22:16:31Z light2yellow: because I don
2018-04-22T22:16:36Z wasamasa: letrec introduces mutually recursive bindings
2018-04-22T22:16:38Z light2yellow: 't see its purpose
2018-04-22T22:16:46Z gwatt: letrec is used for defining mutually recursive functions inside of a scope
2018-04-22T22:17:19Z wasamasa: in the easiest case, it's used to define a temporary function that can call itself by its name
2018-04-22T22:17:25Z light2yellow: I read pages 16-17 of r7rs and don't see what it's for from examples. can't I do the same with define()s?
2018-04-22T22:17:32Z wasamasa: you can
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2018-04-22T22:17:50Z light2yellow: also, they don't really use self-recursion, they call each other, for some reason
2018-04-22T22:17:58Z wasamasa: that's the mutually recursive bit
2018-04-22T22:19:02Z light2yellow: also, I guess ? is a legit indentifier if function's name?
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2018-04-22T22:19:20Z longshi: it is
2018-04-22T22:19:24Z gwatt: almost all characters are valid identifier parts
2018-04-22T22:19:42Z gwatt: whitespace and parens are not
2018-04-22T22:21:22Z wasamasa: so, I looked into this Programming in Scheme book and found they use an obscure scheme system, PC Scheme
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2018-04-22T22:21:40Z wasamasa: hopefully the fancy stuff will work just fine on mit-scheme
2018-04-22T22:21:50Z light2yellow: okay, but I suppose I can rewrite these examples with define(), and wrap them into let(), and it should work, shouldn't it? I refer to an example of letrec on p.16
2018-04-22T22:22:19Z wasamasa: the defines must be local for that to be equivalent
2018-04-22T22:22:24Z gwatt: light2yellow:why don't you try it and see?
2018-04-22T22:22:28Z light2yellow: because I saw that if I define() a function that calls a yet undefined one, it'll still work
2018-04-22T22:23:01Z Zipheir: Drop the ()'s, this isn't C :)
2018-04-22T22:23:55Z light2yellow: but then I need to smh refer to what I mean a function, and (smth) is already used in normal speech, so smth() seems okay to me
2018-04-22T22:24:40Z Zipheir: Yes, that should work.
2018-04-22T22:25:21Z light2yellow: alright, I'll try it tomorrow and will be back with new questions. gn
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2018-04-22T22:58:06Z TheGreekOwl: What does the word delimit mean exactly?
2018-04-22T23:01:37Z gwatt: separates, signifies the start & end
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2018-04-22T23:03:58Z gwatt: TheGreekOwl: are you asking about delimited continuations?
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2018-04-22T23:06:47Z TheGreekOwl: gwatt, no I'm ESL
2018-04-22T23:07:05Z TheGreekOwl: Techically ETL but whatevs. I didn't understand what Delimit meant.
2018-04-22T23:07:20Z TheGreekOwl: I also realize that some terms may have different meaning in programming, thats why I asked here.
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2018-04-22T23:14:40Z Zipheir: Don't drink and derive, and, if you do, don't go over delimit. :)
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2018-04-22T23:26:53Z gwatt: While hilarious, that probably is even more confusing to a non-native speaker
2018-04-22T23:28:26Z Zipheir: Eh, what is natural language anyway other than a huge mass of undefined behaviour?
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2018-04-23T00:34:08Z Zipheir: Did SICP get taken down from mit.edu?
2018-04-23T00:38:01Z Zipheir: The PDF's still available (http://web.mit.edu/alexmv/6.037/sicp.pdf), but all the links to the HTML version are dead.
2018-04-23T00:38:04Z Zipheir: Well, that sucks.
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2018-04-23T00:46:29Z gwatt: Zipheir: I've perused this one: http://sarabander.github.io/sicp/
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2018-04-23T00:54:33Z longshi: ...and, to get back to previous thread, which would you prefer and why: guile or chez? I use primarily these two implementations and would love a learned opinion and/or preferance :>
2018-04-23T00:55:24Z Zipheir: gwatt: Someone did a very nice job on that one.
2018-04-23T00:57:50Z longshi: ...and i've read this http://wingolog.org/archives/2013/01/07/an-opinionated-guide-to-scheme-implementations
2018-04-23T00:58:29Z longshi: but it's pretty old and i assume a few things have changed. Especially since chez got open sourced
2018-04-23T01:00:06Z Zipheir: Chez is very sophisticated and efficient, but it's a big system. The manual is huge.
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2018-04-23T01:01:06Z longshi: But so is for guile, no?
2018-04-23T01:01:21Z longshi: and both are mainly r6ns compliant
2018-04-23T01:01:48Z longshi: i mean, 1.1. chez scheme syntax is only like to a4 pages
2018-04-23T01:02:37Z longshi: not portable, but compared to differences between other "related" languages it's nothing
2018-04-23T01:02:58Z longshi: It should have been 1.1 "chez scheme syntax"
2018-04-23T01:03:04Z longshi: from the chez scheme manual
2018-04-23T01:03:29Z Zipheir: It's not bad if you stick to rnrs and the srfis when you can.
2018-04-23T01:04:31Z longshi: Well, i suppose so, but chez is still a scheme, right?
2018-04-23T01:05:04Z longshi: And if it's a big system, it means it's more convinient, right? CL-like
2018-04-23T01:05:11Z longshi: *convenient
2018-04-23T01:05:16Z Zipheir: Heh, that reminds me of the 'Is Scheme a lisp?' debate. It's a dialect.
2018-04-23T01:06:04Z longshi: and pretty much the fastest one, right?
2018-04-23T01:06:08Z Zipheir: longshi, it depends on what you want. 'Convenient' might mean something tiny like Chibi for some purposes.
2018-04-23T01:06:23Z longshi: I see
2018-04-23T01:06:30Z Zipheir: I think Chez is the fastest, but ecraven is the expert there...
2018-04-23T01:08:03Z longshi: hmm
2018-04-23T01:08:34Z Zipheir: Maybe just pick a Scheme you like and get to know it, then switch if it's not what you want?
2018-04-23T01:08:45Z longshi: Should I use it? For scripting, learning, playing with it, some web stuff maybe...?
2018-04-23T01:09:07Z longshi: Well, I suppose that's the most reasonable
2018-04-23T01:09:59Z longshi: I just have this compulsion to pick once and don't worry about it later--but since the dialects are so similar, this is dumb i guess
2018-04-23T01:10:09Z longshi: Hence the questions
2018-04-23T01:10:34Z longshi: I just hasn't seen much code in chez--i wondered what's wrong with it.
2018-04-23T01:10:49Z longshi: But it might be just the fact that it used to be commercial
2018-04-23T01:10:54Z Zipheir: It _was_ proprietary...
2018-04-23T01:11:01Z Zipheir: You beat me to it. :)
2018-04-23T01:11:04Z longshi: :D
2018-04-23T01:11:26Z Hello_: most of my scheme code is divided between kawa and gambit
2018-04-23T01:11:37Z longshi: kawa is JVM
2018-04-23T01:11:40Z pierpa: Consider that Chez has a professional quality manual
2018-04-23T01:11:44Z longshi: and gambit is...?
2018-04-23T01:12:08Z longshi: Yeah, both the manual and `the scheme programming language` are really impressive
2018-04-23T01:12:12Z pierpa: heritage of the times when it was a commercial and expensive program
2018-04-23T01:12:21Z Hello_: gambit compiles to a target language, currently supports c / python / javascript.... that I know of
2018-04-23T01:12:22Z longshi: That's part of it's appeal for me
2018-04-23T01:12:28Z longshi: its*
2018-04-23T01:12:57Z longshi: But guile manual is pretty good too
2018-04-23T01:13:02Z longshi: and so i'm torn :D
2018-04-23T01:13:53Z longshi:  i'll just use both i guess
2018-04-23T01:13:57Z Zipheir: CHICKEN is also awesome, and decently documented. http://www.call-cc.org/
2018-04-23T01:14:02Z longshi: thanks guys!
2018-04-23T01:14:10Z longshi: Yeah, i have it installed
2018-04-23T01:14:15Z longshi: the website is cute
2018-04-23T01:14:19Z longshi: and the name
2018-04-23T01:17:06Z Hello_: I wanted to use chicken, and though it's supposedly simple, I couldn't wrap my head round er-macros... how do I rename symbols if I'm using helper functions to generate syntax?
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2018-04-23T03:05:19Z jcowan_: Scheme does not actually allow forward, much less recursive, definitions
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2018-04-23T03:05:36Z jcowan_: It allows forward references *within lambdas* to things not yet defined
2018-04-23T03:05:53Z jcowan_: but (define foo (+ bar 1)) (define bar 32) will not cause foo => 33.
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2018-04-23T03:26:24Z Zipheir: Right, thanks. I assumed they meant within lambdas, for some reason.
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2018-04-23T04:18:16Z jcowan__: Hello_: You shouldn't write an er-macro unless you know that a syntax-rules macro will not suffice: in particular, if your macro is going to introduce names into the calling context that don't appear in the macro call itself.
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2018-04-23T04:30:23Z Hello_: I feel like like if I went down the syntax-rules route I would be using a lot of ck-macros, and ck-macros end up just being a lot of semi-duplication of a lot of run-time library code.
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2018-04-23T05:57:56Z ecraven: Zipheir: there is probably no *fastest* Scheme, it all depends on what you need.
2018-04-23T05:58:11Z ecraven: stalin is fast, but that doesn't help much if it is lacking all kinds of libraries you may want
2018-04-23T05:58:32Z ecraven: chez is fast indeed, but it certainly doesn't have the wealth of libraries that guile, chicken or racket (and other Schemes) offer
2018-04-23T05:58:47Z ecraven: I'm just saying, speed is not everything ;)
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2018-04-23T17:42:29Z duncanm: hello hello
2018-04-23T17:42:35Z ecraven: heyho ;)
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2018-04-23T17:57:58Z ecraven: ah, chicken and mono still haven't resolved their fight over /usr/bin/csc in arch linux :-/
2018-04-23T17:59:09Z Kooda: Apparently
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2018-04-23T18:09:36Z jonaslund: the csc name is copied from Microsoft's C# compiler so mono is unlikely to want to try to change since they'd break compact with the official runtime
2018-04-23T18:09:57Z jonaslund: speaking of.... .NET core has been released recently and might introduce it's own csc in yet another package
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2018-04-23T18:11:31Z jonaslund: (in this "bizarro" Oracle world .NET is the more "open" alternative to Java
2018-04-23T18:14:41Z duncanm: I still prefer to use the good ol' `mcs`
2018-04-23T18:14:48Z duncanm: which is the mono c# compiler
2018-04-23T18:16:05Z jonaslund: duncanm: hmm, what's the diff between mcs and csc ?
2018-04-23T18:16:13Z jcowan_: Who wrote them
2018-04-23T18:16:25Z duncanm: mcs is the implementation that the mono project wrote, and csc is the roslyn compiler
2018-04-23T18:16:26Z jcowan_: mcs is part of mono, csc is part of .NET
2018-04-23T18:16:40Z jcowan_: any other differences are bugs
2018-04-23T18:16:40Z jonaslund: any big practical differences?
2018-04-23T18:16:56Z duncanm: moving forward, roslyn is gonna be used more often, because the new features of the language are implemented there
2018-04-23T18:17:03Z duncanm: but roslyn is way slower than mcs
2018-04-23T18:18:09Z jonaslund: is there much life in mono these days?
2018-04-23T18:18:15Z jonaslund: since MS bought out xamarin
2018-04-23T18:18:25Z duncanm: yeah, it's the runtime that drives the xamarin toolchain
2018-04-23T18:19:05Z jcowan_: roslyn is not supported to run on a mono runtime, I don't think
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2018-04-23T18:23:50Z erkin: Arch has a solution, albeit not a great one.
2018-04-23T18:24:54Z erkin: Either rename it to chicken-cs{c,i} https://aur.archlinux.org/packages/chicken-noconflict/ or rename it to mono-cs{c,i} https://aur.archlinux.org/packages/mono-noconflict/
2018-04-23T18:25:00Z erkin: Gentoo doesn't seem to have any solution at all.
2018-04-23T18:25:03Z jcowan_: I should think debian alternative is suitable
2018-04-23T18:25:55Z jcowan_: unless the day comes when Chicken has a C# backend
2018-04-23T18:26:17Z erkin: whoa
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2018-04-23T18:33:22Z Zipheir: *cringe*
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2018-04-23T18:37:24Z gwatt: i thought debian alternative was for competing implementations of the same thing?
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2018-04-23T18:38:00Z jcowan_: gwatt: Yes, technically
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2018-04-23T18:41:30Z jcowan: gwatt: But "the same thing" can be interpreted quite broadly:  "editor" can be bound to any text editor, and "rsh" is bound to ssh, even though they are not actually compatible
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2018-04-23T19:04:21Z gwatt: is "editor" a debian-ism?
2018-04-23T19:05:25Z ecraven: it doesn't exist on arch linux, I think yes
2018-04-23T19:05:33Z gwatt: doesn't exist on slackware either
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2018-04-23T19:08:54Z jcowan: it's part of /etc/alternatives, I don't know where that exists beside debian
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2018-04-23T19:12:05Z gwatt: I've had it on redhats
2018-04-23T19:13:32Z jcowan: doesn't exist on cygwin either
2018-04-23T19:13:38Z jcowan: but of course you can add your own alternatives
2018-04-23T19:14:09Z gwatt: I don't have much experience with it, but it seemed more about providing an easy way to switch between competing "implementation suites"
2018-04-23T19:14:41Z gwatt: or at least, that's what I wanted out of it
2018-04-23T19:15:01Z jcowan nods
2018-04-23T19:15:17Z jcowan: cygwin does not have update-alternatives, though, and I'm not sure what it does have
2018-04-23T19:17:20Z jcowan: it is supposed to be called 'alternatives' but doesn't appear to be on my system, who knows wh
2018-04-23T19:17:22Z jcowan: why
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2018-04-23T19:19:14Z jcowan: ah, ok, /usr/sbin/alternatives
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2018-04-23T19:23:05Z jcowan: because cygwin has no root user, /usr/sbin is never on $PATH unless you put it there (bad idea)
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2018-04-23T19:55:23Z duncanm: jcowan: we're running Roslyn on Mono now
2018-04-23T19:55:32Z jcowan: Ah, okay
2018-04-23T19:55:41Z gwatt: who is "we" ?
2018-04-23T19:55:50Z duncanm: http://www.mono-project.com/docs/about-mono/releases/5.0.0/
2018-04-23T19:56:02Z duncanm: The Xamarin people
2018-04-23T19:56:14Z duncanm: My day job has to do with Xamarin
2018-04-23T19:56:15Z gwatt: ah, cool!
2018-04-23T19:56:36Z jcowan: so this means mcs will be deprecated, most likely?
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2018-04-23T20:03:43Z duncanm: i dunno, i think we're keeping it around, because it really is a lot faster
2018-04-23T20:03:57Z duncanm: there's some talk for this and that, i think
2018-04-23T20:05:28Z duncanm: "The Mono C# compiler is still available but it has not been updated to include C#7 features. The compiler is still maintained and all reported bugs have been fixed."
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2018-04-23T20:17:35Z gwatt: why is the mono compiler so much faster than roslyn?
2018-04-23T20:19:27Z jcowan: probably written to a higher standard of programming
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2018-04-23T20:27:27Z jonaslund: https://github.com/dotnet/roslyn <- says they've added tools so that the compiler can be used to integrate into other tools like IDE, maybe with refactoring,etc ?
2018-04-23T20:28:37Z jonaslund: flexibility could come with a cost
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2018-04-23T20:35:58Z jcowan: duncanm: how's the speed of roslyn on Mono vs. roslyn on .NET Framework?
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2018-04-23T20:50:19Z duncanm: i think .net framework is faster?
2018-04-23T20:50:31Z duncanm: i don't keep up with the benchmarking
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2018-04-23T20:50:53Z duncanm: miguel just wrote a thing about floating point performance, http://tirania.org/blog/archive/2018/Apr-11.html
2018-04-23T20:51:14Z duncanm: there are different backends, and different architectures, so it's a big matrix of things
2018-04-23T20:54:27Z jcowan nods
2018-04-23T20:57:05Z Riastradh: Heh.  Fifteen years ago, PowerPC might have justified that: the native floating-point instructions and registers are all 64-bit, with conversion on 32-bit load and store.  But it would be weird if that motivated a decision for Mono.
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2018-04-23T21:06:34Z jcowan: What's more, computing in 64 bits and then converting to 32 bits loses information, which is why C/C++ no longer does it
2018-04-23T21:09:09Z jcowan: https://www.cs.toronto.edu/~radford/ftp/fltcompress.pdf looks like an interesting workaround for this
2018-04-23T21:10:15Z jcowan: it stores only 5 bits of a float64 mantissa and uses a small lookup table to provide the correct values for 32-bit information rather than treating them as all zeros
2018-04-23T21:10:24Z jcowan: same range as float64, but lesser precision
2018-04-23T21:11:14Z Riastradh: If there were a standard round-to-nearest/ties-to-odd rounding mode, then it would be cheap to avoid losing that information!
2018-04-23T21:11:33Z Riastradh: jcowan: Proposal for R42RS: Support configurable rounding modes for each arithmetic operation, and support round-to-nearest/ties-to-odd.
2018-04-23T21:11:59Z jcowan: I am thinking about that for R7RS-large, but haven't gotten to it yet
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2018-04-23T21:12:26Z jcowan: probably in the Green Edition
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2018-04-23T21:44:08Z mejja: anders hejlsberg on roslyn: https://channel9.msdn.com/Blogs/Seth-Juarez/Anders-Hejlsberg-on-Modern-Compiler-Construction
2018-04-23T21:46:21Z TheGreekOwl: http://prntscr.com/j97dz9 so
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2018-04-23T21:46:22Z TheGreekOwl: I'm dum
2018-04-23T21:46:28Z TheGreekOwl: I'm trying to understand this
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2018-04-23T21:46:53Z TheGreekOwl: From what I get, the evaluation workes sequentually
2018-04-23T21:47:09Z damke_ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2018-04-23T21:47:13Z wasamasa: not necessarily
2018-04-23T21:47:32Z wasamasa: the book goes into great detail on two different evaluation strategies
2018-04-23T21:47:56Z TheGreekOwl: I see.
2018-04-23T21:48:11Z TheGreekOwl: I'm just trying to wrap my head how the above define works
2018-04-23T21:48:18Z wasamasa: in scheme, the evaluation order isn't specified at all
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2018-04-23T21:48:34Z wasamasa: the explanation isn't even about how evaluation is done, but what the form means
2018-04-23T21:49:00Z TheGreekOwl: Yeah but having a form by it self presented doesn't help me that much. WhatI'm trying to understand is
2018-04-23T21:49:03Z TheGreekOwl: Why is it (define (square x) (* x x))
2018-04-23T21:49:28Z LeoNerd: wasamasa: I think it's specified a /little/ bit; in that given  (a b c d)  we know that a is evaluated first, entirely, before b/c/d are. we just don't know between those
2018-04-23T21:49:38Z TheGreekOwl: What would happen if it was (define (square x (* x x)))
2018-04-23T21:49:49Z wasamasa: that wouldn't make any sense
2018-04-23T21:49:57Z wasamasa: don't get too hung up on the syntax
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2018-04-23T21:50:34Z TheGreekOwl: I should just take it as a given that this is how define works then?
2018-04-23T21:50:37Z wasamasa: and yes, there is at least one lisp out there that does that kind of silliness
2018-04-23T21:50:44Z wasamasa: yes
2018-04-23T21:50:48Z TheGreekOwl: I can define variable x, then afterwards describe what that variable can do
2018-04-23T21:51:00Z TheGreekOwl: If I wanted to find the square root of something
2018-04-23T21:51:01Z wasamasa: unless you're an etymology student, it doesn't matter terribly much to you
2018-04-23T21:51:30Z TheGreekOwl: I assume it'd be something like (define (squareroot x) (/ x x))
2018-04-23T21:51:48Z TheGreekOwl: But wait, wouldn't that produce an infinite sum if the squareroot wasn't perfect
2018-04-23T21:52:40Z wasamasa: dividing x by itself gives you 1
2018-04-23T21:53:23Z TheGreekOwl: ...i'm dumb
2018-04-23T21:53:42Z wasamasa: maybe you're better off with a different text, like Programming in Scheme
2018-04-23T21:53:53Z wasamasa: SICP isn't a book about learning scheme after all
2018-04-23T21:53:56Z TheGreekOwl: Nah, I'm enjoying this
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2018-04-23T21:57:19Z gwatt: LeoNerd: no. (a b c d) does require that "a" be resolved first.
2018-04-23T21:58:27Z gwatt: "a", "b", "c", and "d" must all be resolved before the entire expression (a b c d), but that's it
2018-04-23T21:58:53Z TheGreekOwl: I'm actually interested to see how i'd program a sqrt
2018-04-23T21:59:21Z TheGreekOwl: Since  sqrt(x) = x^(1/2)
2018-04-23T22:00:46Z gwatt: sicp gets to that
2018-04-23T22:00:56Z TheGreekOwl: no wait
2018-04-23T22:01:01Z TheGreekOwl: THat's not correct, I'm dumb.
2018-04-23T22:01:19Z TheGreekOwl: No wait actually I'm not,
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2018-04-23T22:13:38Z longshi: hi, noob question: is there a difference between calling your (chez) scheme scripts foo.ss and foo.sls?
2018-04-23T22:13:44Z longshi: i've seen both
2018-04-23T22:14:10Z longshi: is there a "proper" one?
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2018-04-23T22:15:41Z gwatt: no
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2018-04-23T22:16:13Z gwatt: the difference is mostly preference
2018-04-23T22:16:34Z gwatt: and convention
2018-04-23T22:17:04Z longshi: thanks
2018-04-23T22:17:14Z gwatt: .sls is conventionally for scheme library sources
2018-04-23T22:17:16Z longshi: i haven't seen that before
2018-04-23T22:17:28Z longshi: clever
2018-04-23T22:17:35Z longshi: i like that
2018-04-23T22:17:39Z mejja: ask in #chez
2018-04-23T22:17:56Z longshi: does rnrs say something about file extensions?
2018-04-23T22:18:20Z gwatt: if you run (library-extensions) in chez it will tell you what file extensions it looks for when looking for libraries
2018-04-23T22:19:30Z gwatt: The one thing that's important to know, is that i fyou need to provide implementation specific features, you can write a file with extensions .chezscheme.sls, and chez scheme will look in that file first
2018-04-23T22:19:52Z gwatt: Presumably other implementations won't also look for .chezscheme.sls
2018-04-23T22:20:07Z gwatt: when writing libraries for multiple schemes
2018-04-23T22:20:41Z longshi: gwatt: thanks
2018-04-23T22:24:32Z TheGreekOwl: wait
2018-04-23T22:24:32Z light2yellow quit (Quit: light2yellow)
2018-04-23T22:24:48Z TheGreekOwl: There's a square root function in scheme
2018-04-23T22:24:50Z TheGreekOwl: FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFF
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2018-04-23T22:36:09Z TheGreekOwl: I literally burned my mind trying to compute a sqrtoot manually
2018-04-23T22:38:09Z excelsior quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2018-04-23T22:38:58Z TheGreekOwl: http://prntscr.com/j97ym0 yeah em
2018-04-23T22:39:04Z TheGreekOwl: I'm gona need to understand the syntax here
2018-04-23T22:39:42Z TheGreekOwl: SOmething analytic. What was the book wasamasa refered ro again>
2018-04-23T22:48:35Z cemerick_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2018-04-23T22:49:04Z qu1j0t3: SICP
2018-04-23T22:49:24Z qu1j0t3: and yes it does cover Newton's method for approximating square roots
2018-04-23T22:53:22Z duncanm: heh
2018-04-23T22:54:54Z TheGreekOwl: qu1j0t3, em
2018-04-23T22:54:57Z TheGreekOwl: That's what am I reading
2018-04-23T22:55:06Z sleffy quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
2018-04-23T22:55:17Z TheGreekOwl: I'm also convienced this book is eye opening
2018-04-23T22:55:20Z TheGreekOwl: And i'm only on chapter 1
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2018-04-23T22:55:33Z qu1j0t3: it is a classic, yes
2018-04-23T22:55:46Z qu1j0t3: gotta do the exercises though
2018-04-23T22:55:49Z TheGreekOwl: I will.
2018-04-23T22:56:04Z TheGreekOwl: Does the book have them in the PDF/the MIT page?
2018-04-23T22:56:59Z duncanm: TheGreekOwl: getting used to the parens gets to be handy later on, but for now, this code that you have there
2018-04-23T22:57:16Z duncanm: (define (sum-of-squares x y) (+ (square x) (square y)))
2018-04-23T22:57:31Z duncanm: you can write that in Javascript (or anything else, really) just as easily
2018-04-23T22:57:36Z TheGreekOwl: duncanm, I reread it, I finally understand it, sort of
2018-04-23T22:57:38Z erkin: Writing Python after Scheme feels... naked
2018-04-23T22:57:47Z TheGreekOwl: erkin, how so
2018-04-23T22:58:05Z duncanm: let sum_of_squares(x, y) => square(x) + square(y);
2018-04-23T22:58:09Z duncanm: that's the same
2018-04-23T22:58:24Z erkin: Well, Python always feels naked to me.
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2018-04-23T22:58:31Z duncanm: oh wait
2018-04-23T22:58:33Z erkin: No sexp, no braces, no semicolons.
2018-04-23T22:58:40Z duncanm: i missed a =
2018-04-23T22:58:40Z erkin: Just cold whitespace.
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2018-04-23T22:58:42Z aeth: Macros. The answer is always macros. Or, perhaps more generally, expression-oriented programming without any statements/blocks.
2018-04-23T22:59:24Z duncanm: > let sum_of_squares = (x, y) => square(x) + square(y);
2018-04-23T22:59:24Z duncanm: > let square = (x) => x * x;
2018-04-23T22:59:24Z duncanm: > sum_of_squares (3, 4);
2018-04-23T22:59:24Z duncanm: 25
2018-04-23T22:59:42Z duncanm: same thing
2018-04-23T22:59:50Z aeth: The way you actually write code in Lisp or Scheme is very different than most languages, even when you do things that can be done in other languages. For instance, doing something with the result returned by a cond rather than using if/then/else blocks to set a value to then do something with that value.
2018-04-23T23:00:13Z qu1j0t3: TheGreekOwl: the online version has the exercises, yes
2018-04-23T23:00:22Z aeth: (I suppose you could abuse a ternary to act like cond.)
2018-04-23T23:00:26Z duncanm: hmm, jcowen is not here
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2018-04-23T23:00:41Z duncanm: i wonder what the history of getprop/putprop is for Scheme, I saw it for the first time in Scheme->C the other day
2018-04-23T23:01:03Z duncanm: i thought it's a thing that s2c invented, turns out chez has it, and other schemes too
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2018-04-23T23:04:40Z TheGreekOwl: qu1j0t3, can I actually get a link because for some reason I can't get it
2018-04-23T23:05:02Z TheGreekOwl: duncanm, later on it gets better
2018-04-23T23:05:12Z qu1j0t3: TheGreekOwl: seriously? it's top link if you google "SICP"
2018-04-23T23:05:21Z duncanm: TheGreekOwl: i know, i program in Scheme
2018-04-23T23:05:38Z TheGreekOwl: duncanm, oh
2018-04-23T23:05:50Z TheGreekOwl: Wait, people use scheme for realzies?
2018-04-23T23:05:53Z duncanm: i'm just telling you, the fun part hasn't started yet
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2018-04-23T23:06:47Z TheGreekOwl: qu1j0t3, oh
2018-04-23T23:06:51Z TheGreekOwl: Again, I'm dumb.
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2018-04-23T23:17:15Z Zipheir: TheGreekOwl: People have been using Lisps for realzies for a really long time. :)
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2018-04-23T23:20:12Z TheGreekOwl: Not jsut for legacy systems>
2018-04-23T23:21:17Z Zipheir: Depends what you mean by legacy?
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2018-04-23T23:23:21Z Zipheir: Legacy: I believe the nukes are still launched by COBOL.
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2018-04-23T23:31:38Z TheGreekOwl: I'm on 1.1.6 when the heck do Iget to the exercise
2018-04-23T23:31:46Z TheGreekOwl: I will do them all without looking at asnwer
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2018-04-23T23:40:36Z Zipheir: That is a great challenge. In the words of Girolamo Frescobaldi, 'the one who undertakes this will not learn a little'.
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2018-04-24T00:02:22Z jcowan: Zipheir: Naah.  C/C++ and before that Ada
2018-04-24T00:03:15Z jcowan: The Social Security Administration does use Cobol, though
2018-04-24T00:03:21Z damke_ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2018-04-24T00:04:09Z jcowan: and the Dept of the Treasury uses assembly language, probably IBM 360
2018-04-24T00:05:05Z Zipheir: I'd still probably trust IBM assembly over some of our modern horrors...
2018-04-24T00:05:52Z gwatt: jcowan: supposedly, all the nuclear launch codes are 00000000 "because that's easy to remember in the even of an emergency"
2018-04-24T00:05:56Z aeth: why why why would you go from Ada to C/C++
2018-04-24T00:06:11Z jcowan: When the Ada mandate expired, the DoD basically gave up on it
2018-04-24T00:06:15Z jcowan: that was 1997
2018-04-24T00:06:27Z aeth: You want safety, not a low memory footprint and a good optimizing compiler.
2018-04-24T00:06:41Z aeth: I don't trust anything C or C++ to be safe.
2018-04-24T00:06:51Z aeth: Different languages have different constraints.
2018-04-24T00:07:18Z Zipheir: C++ in critical software is indeed pretty scary.
2018-04-24T00:07:51Z gwatt: let me know how your non C/C++ OS is treating you
2018-04-24T00:07:57Z Zipheir: :)
2018-04-24T00:08:18Z aeth: gwatt: The difference is, my life doesn't rely on my personal computers not crashing.
2018-04-24T00:08:30Z aeth: With medical/space/defense, it might.
2018-04-24T00:09:02Z aeth: (Add in automobiles and airplanes, too, I guess.)
2018-04-24T00:09:15Z Zipheir: If you're on the ISS, I believe your life depends on Debian, which is also a little scary.
2018-04-24T00:09:22Z gwatt: heh
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2018-04-24T00:12:18Z gwatt: aeth: but is your safety critical code running on bare metal, or under an OS written in C/C++?
2018-04-24T00:13:51Z aeth: Going with a C/C++ OS is going with ecosystem and performance. (At least affordable performance.)
2018-04-24T00:14:27Z aeth: But I would personally trust (popular) operating system C over application C.
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2018-04-24T00:15:02Z aeth: Sure, C is a language where writing insecure code is incredibly simple, but if it's a widely used OS, you have decades of bug patches.
2018-04-24T00:16:35Z Zipheir: We need a revival of interest in OS research.
2018-04-24T00:16:54Z aeth: Pretty much everything is Unix (C) or NT (C++), and that's not a good thing.
2018-04-24T00:17:27Z aeth: Although maybe performance *still* isn't there for interesting alternatives.
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2018-04-24T00:17:56Z aeth: Using a slower language for every layer is going to add up quickly.
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2018-04-24T00:21:50Z Zipheir: It mainly seems as though no one's interested. The trend seems to be toward implementing what you want at a different level of the stack, or just emulating.
2018-04-24T00:22:43Z Zipheir: Rob Pike summed up the current attitude when he said 'The OS doesn't matter these days.' Which is sort of depressing.
2018-04-24T00:24:05Z gwatt: http://www.herpolhode.com/rob/utah2000.pdf
2018-04-24T00:24:22Z gwatt: almost 20 years ago, rob pike declared OS research dead
2018-04-24T00:26:05Z aeth: Zipheir: Two problems. Users want drivers and users want applications. An attack from the low level and the high level. Makes it impossible for a better OS to get users.
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2018-04-24T00:27:01Z Zipheir: gwatt: It's almost like maybe he wrote an unpopular OS and now has an axe to grind. Oh, wait...
2018-04-24T00:27:40Z Zipheir: aeth: One problem: Users.
2018-04-24T00:28:08Z Zipheir: aeth: Damn users expecting to be able to *use* software!
2018-04-24T00:28:13Z aeth: Zipheir: The users are rational. The best OS that runs no software on no hardware isn't the best OS.
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2018-04-24T00:29:09Z aeth: Zipheir: I think the best you can do is an Android-style approach and replace pretty much everything except the (Linux) kernel. Then you have compatibility with hardware/software still.
2018-04-24T00:31:00Z Zipheir: aeth: Agreed. But that's sad for those of us who want to program, rather than just use. Because at some level we'll still be calling ioctl() in 2050.
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2018-04-24T00:32:48Z aeth: Zipheir: Nah, the time to do an OS switch is when the hardware people use moves.
2018-04-24T00:33:00Z aeth: Zipheir: I don't think in 2050 we'll have the same kinds of computers.
2018-04-24T00:33:25Z aeth: VR/AR will probably be in place by then.
2018-04-24T00:33:25Z gwatt: why not, we had the same kinds of computers 30 years ago
2018-04-24T00:33:48Z aeth: Why not? VR/AR.
2018-04-24T00:34:11Z aeth: We'll go from 2D worlds to 3D worlds.
2018-04-24T00:34:15Z aeth: Real 3D.
2018-04-24T00:34:23Z aeth: Well, "real" 3D.
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2018-04-24T00:34:36Z gwatt: was gonna say ...
2018-04-24T00:34:39Z aeth: Pretty much all hardware/software will change.
2018-04-24T00:36:11Z Zipheir: And hopefully, hopefully we'll be able to program it. :-/
2018-04-24T00:36:40Z aeth: Don't worry, Facebook is aggressively moving early to be the dominant company in that era.
2018-04-24T00:37:24Z edgar-rft: Looking at the current backwards-development of GUIs toward an early 1970s style with only a handfull of things on my m1280x1024 screen I assume in 2050 we will use marbles as computers like pytagoras did in ancient greece.
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2018-04-24T00:37:59Z aeth: edgar-rft: You're thinking about things the wrong way. What's going on is the increasing use of whitespace and padding.
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2018-04-24T00:38:26Z aeth: From which we can deduce that Whitespace is the programming language of the future. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whitespace_(programming_language)
2018-04-24T00:38:26Z edgar-rft: whitspace is a racist term
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2018-04-24T00:52:24Z zero21: i got some questions about scheme, i know there is chicken scheme but i dont understand how it works, is it like: i write scheme then that scheme is translated into c? does it mean that i wont need to know c at all to create c code using chicken scheme? what are advantages of this?
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2018-04-24T00:54:38Z Zipheir: C is sort of a portable assembly language, and it's fairly easy to compile Scheme to.
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2018-04-24T00:56:33Z Zipheir: You don't need to know C to use a scheme->c compiler, just as you don't need to know assembly to use a c->assembly compiler.
2018-04-24T00:56:55Z zero21: i need to mention that i dont have knowledge about cs or scheme mostly, i just started few weeks ago and still try to figure out
2018-04-24T00:58:14Z Kooda: Know that any compiler is just a translator from one language to another. It just happens to be Scheme to C for CHICKEN. :)
2018-04-24T00:58:28Z zero21: so this compiled c is gonna as good as the c itself? lets assume there is a job that requires something done in c, so i can use scheme, compile it to c and it will work fine?or people wont like that?
2018-04-24T00:58:32Z Kooda: If you want your scheme code to interact with external C code, you still have to know C.
2018-04-24T00:58:57Z Kooda: People will probably not like that, it doesn’t look like hand written C.
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2018-04-24T00:59:21Z zero21: then what is the use?
2018-04-24T01:00:04Z Kooda: It’s just design choices.
2018-04-24T01:00:11Z Kooda: Just like any other compiler.
2018-04-24T01:00:56Z Kooda: Portability was one of the main reasons for CHICKEN to chose C as the target language.
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2018-04-24T01:03:41Z zero21: ok thanks, other question is it possible to make 3d games with scheme? or what can you create with scheme and what cannot?
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2018-04-24T01:05:08Z Kooda: Anything’s possible, each implementation will help in some ways and have some flaws. ^^
2018-04-24T01:06:07Z Kooda: I’ve made games in Scheme, not 3D yet because I didn’t take the time for it, but it will come soon. :)
2018-04-24T01:07:52Z zero21: problem is that i dont understand how it all works together, i can do some simple images in racket and make them move around, so i thought i can try to make a program that would create a solar system with all the planets moving, but racket can do only 2d, so i guess it means doing 3d is possible but i ll have to create that 3d part myself?
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2018-04-24T01:10:15Z Kooda: You might want to look for a library that enables you to do that. You don’t have to do everything yourself
2018-04-24T01:10:53Z zero21: a library inside racket or external?
2018-04-24T01:11:39Z Kooda: I don’t know about racket libraries, you’ll have to look it up yourself.
2018-04-24T01:12:38Z zero21: if it is not a racket library, how to connect it to racket code?
2018-04-24T01:12:50Z Hello: you might be interested in chicken scheme's Hypergiant egg
2018-04-24T01:13:30Z Zipheir: If you 'dont have knowledge about cs or scheme mostly', you should probably get some basics down first.
2018-04-24T01:14:05Z Kooda: Indeed. And yes Hypergiant is nice, but it’s quite complicated if you have no previous knowledge.
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2018-04-24T01:17:45Z zero21: i am trying but, when i just started it i chose scheme thinking it can do anything, but then i see that its all complicated and i dont understand what can be done and i am no longer certain in my choice. so i want to know what can i do after i have knowledge of scheme, for now i have an impression that it is a lot like "everything is possible, but do it yourself".
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2018-04-24T01:20:09Z Kooda: zero21, I think you’ll be fine with Racket, it has a lot of external libraries. :)
2018-04-24T01:20:23Z Kooda: And a good documentation.
2018-04-24T01:20:34Z Kooda: There are probably the most important points you will need.
2018-04-24T01:20:41Z Kooda: You can worry about other details later.
2018-04-24T01:21:09Z Hello: even if you don't stick with scheme in the end, imo scheme gives one an excellent framework for understanding other languages
2018-04-24T01:21:37Z Hello: my python skills improved two magnitudes after spending a lot of time with scheme
2018-04-24T01:22:00Z Kooda: Hello, is it because you understand the weird quirks better? ;)
2018-04-24T01:22:54Z Hello: perhaps
2018-04-24T01:25:38Z Hello: my first language was java and I had to spend a lot of time unlearning things I erroneously thought held true for all programming languages
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2018-04-24T01:29:32Z zero21: i am afraid that scheme knowledge wont help with langauges like c that arent functional.
2018-04-24T01:30:34Z Kooda: Scheme isn’t completely functional. And don’t worry, any experience is good.
2018-04-24T01:32:12Z zero21: i had an impression that scheme is easier than other languages like c or java is that right?
2018-04-24T01:33:25Z Hello: I would say Scheme is both more simple yet deeper in depth.
2018-04-24T01:33:34Z Kooda: C is pretty hard to get right, indeed.
2018-04-24T01:33:43Z Kooda: I don’t know much about Java so I can’t say.
2018-04-24T01:35:39Z Zipheir: A decent test is how clear the language spec is. Scheme and Haskell are pretty good, ISO C is ... possible to read. I've never been able to get past the preamble of the Java spec. :)
2018-04-24T01:37:22Z Hello: I feel like learning the build tools and compilers and conventions and libraries around c is harder than learning c itself.
2018-04-24T01:38:35Z Zipheir: ... or how not to shoot yourself in the foot in mysterious ways.
2018-04-24T01:38:52Z zero21: a big problem for me is that i dont see any possibility to get a job involving scheme, is it possible to get a job like that?
2018-04-24T01:40:22Z Kooda: It is possible, but a lot harder than any language that is currently hip.
2018-04-24T01:41:06Z Zipheir: zero21: Are you asking whether you should learn Scheme?
2018-04-24T01:41:41Z zero21: yes
2018-04-24T01:42:21Z Zipheir: If it's interesting enough to you to ask so many questions, then learn it! It won't take you long, and you can decide then how useful it is to you.
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2018-04-24T01:45:20Z zero21: another problem i have is that there are lots of types of scheme, i guess knowing one means you can do 80% in other scheme, is that right? what about lisp or emacs lisp?
2018-04-24T01:46:04Z akkad: what does an elipsis ... represent in scheme?
2018-04-24T01:46:33Z akkad: zero21: it's all very easy once you get it down. easy to move between them
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2018-04-24T01:48:09Z Kooda: aking, usually it means: one or more of what was before.
2018-04-24T01:48:29Z Kooda: Also, it is valid code in syntax-rules.
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2018-04-24T01:50:53Z Kooda: akkad** sorry for the wrong HL
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2018-04-24T01:52:46Z zero21: thank you all for your answers
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2018-04-24T06:19:43Z ecraven: hm.. I guess there's no way to write a generic record comparator in r7rs?
2018-04-24T06:20:18Z ecraven: i.e. compare two records (as in define-record-type) based on their fields (like equals? might do)
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2018-04-24T11:05:09Z jcowan: ecraven: right, no introspection in the small language
2018-04-24T11:05:18Z jcowan: so no portable record comparison
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2018-04-24T12:32:53Z ecraven: jcowan: does r7rs say anything about how equal? should handle records?
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2018-04-24T12:39:36Z jcowan: ecraven: If two records are eqv?, they must also be equal?.  Otherwise, either #t or #f can be returned.
2018-04-24T12:40:21Z jcowan: (The first half is true of any two objects.)
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2018-04-24T12:57:04Z ecraven: so equal? is allowed but not required to check records "recursively"?
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2018-04-24T14:31:42Z TheGreekOwl: (+ a b (* a b))  so...
2018-04-24T14:31:44Z TheGreekOwl: I'm a bit dumb
2018-04-24T14:32:04Z TheGreekOwl: How would the normal order sequence of this go exactly... suppose a = 3 b = 4
2018-04-24T14:32:18Z TheGreekOwl: (+ 3 4 (* 3 4))
2018-04-24T14:32:38Z TheGreekOwl: Which becomes (+7 12) correct?
2018-04-24T14:33:35Z ecraven: indeed
2018-04-24T14:33:53Z TheGreekOwl: Oh so
2018-04-24T14:34:11Z TheGreekOwl: I though tat first it'd be (7 (12))
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2018-04-24T14:34:22Z ecraven: no, (* 3 4) -> 12, not (12)
2018-04-24T14:34:53Z TheGreekOwl: Cause... I falsely thought once you do the first (+ 3 4... the + dissappears
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2018-04-24T14:35:11Z ecraven: you do (* 3 4) first, then (+ 3 4 12)
2018-04-24T14:35:20Z TheGreekOwl: ...i'm hella dum
2018-04-24T14:35:40Z TCZ: owl you low efort troll
2018-04-24T14:35:54Z TheGreekOwl: TCZ, I'm not a troll, I'm new to this.
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2018-04-24T14:46:04Z TCZ: 3 4 * 3 + 4 +
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2018-04-24T15:38:15Z jcowan: ecraven: just so:  equal? is defined only on standard types
2018-04-24T15:38:32Z jcowan: recursion isn't necessarily TRT, for example when some slots are used as caches or such
2018-04-24T15:38:59Z jcowan: that's how I evolved the comparator framework, by trying to write a generalized-equal? function
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2018-04-24T17:55:40Z TheGreekOwl: ((if (> b 0) + -) a b))
2018-04-24T17:55:53Z TheGreekOwl: Pardon me, but what in god'sname does the above even mean
2018-04-24T17:56:11Z TheGreekOwl: Why is the consequent + and -?
2018-04-24T17:56:27Z Hello: if b is greater than zero, use the addition function, else use the subtraction fuction
2018-04-24T17:56:28Z TheGreekOwl: If this was a (define (durp a b) does that mean it would make it a -b?
2018-04-24T17:57:37Z TheGreekOwl: Hello, wait, does that mean in this case that + - are just other defines?
2018-04-24T17:57:41Z TheGreekOwl: They aren't operators?
2018-04-24T17:57:50Z Hello: correct
2018-04-24T17:58:02Z TheGreekOwl: What a sneaky example
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2018-04-24T18:16:59Z TheGreekOwl: Do the exercises on SICP have the solutions in the book>
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2018-04-24T18:40:17Z GGMethos: not in the book itself
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2018-04-24T21:26:54Z jcowan: TheGreekOwl: Did you get an answer to your question about ((if (> b 0) + -) a b))?
2018-04-24T21:27:08Z TheGreekOwl: jcowan, I figured it out
2018-04-24T21:27:17Z TheGreekOwl: look, I'm dumb, some easy stuff just baffles me
2018-04-24T21:27:34Z jcowan: easy but surprising
2018-04-24T21:27:50Z jcowan: coming from other languages we don't expect the operator to be computable on the spot, but it is
2018-04-24T21:28:02Z jcowan: Scheme evaluates operator and operand positions in exactly the same way
2018-04-24T21:29:46Z wasamasa: the challenge is figuring that out yourself
2018-04-24T21:33:30Z TheGreekOwl: jcowan, I'm not a programmer
2018-04-24T21:33:39Z TheGreekOwl: I'm an artist who just is interested in stuff
2018-04-24T21:33:44Z jcowan: Ah.
2018-04-24T21:34:10Z wasamasa: maybe you're better off with something catering to that niche then
2018-04-24T21:34:17Z wasamasa: supercollider is pretty popular
2018-04-24T21:34:32Z wasamasa: there are a few lisp projects interfacing with it
2018-04-24T21:35:10Z jcowan: Well, so much the less to unlearn, then
2018-04-24T21:35:30Z wasamasa: personally, I quite like their own language, save for the debugging part and finding irritating bugs
2018-04-24T21:36:38Z TheGreekOwl: wasamasa, I'd rather not tbh.
2018-04-24T21:36:51Z TheGreekOwl: I enjoy delearning and trying out hard stuff
2018-04-24T21:37:17Z wasamasa: lisps are pretty much ideal for exploring areas new to you and implementing stuff yourself
2018-04-24T21:37:29Z TheGreekOwl: http://prntscr.com/j9ommr right now UI'm trying to parse this
2018-04-24T21:37:37Z wasamasa: it's just that these days most people prefer ready-made libraries...
2018-04-24T21:37:39Z TheGreekOwl: I'm ETL so this is a bit hard to say the least
2018-04-24T21:38:05Z TheGreekOwl: What does 'averaging y with x/y.' mean exactly?
2018-04-24T21:38:06Z wasamasa: extract, transform, load?
2018-04-24T21:38:15Z TheGreekOwl: No, English as Third Language
2018-04-24T21:38:18Z wasamasa: lol
2018-04-24T21:38:25Z wasamasa: what makes you think this is any different for us?
2018-04-24T21:38:57Z TheGreekOwl: Idk, like, I don't exactly have a high opinion of my English.
2018-04-24T21:39:03Z wasamasa: then improve it
2018-04-24T21:39:15Z TheGreekOwl: I am.
2018-04-24T21:39:37Z wasamasa: averaging is about building the average of two things
2018-04-24T21:39:43Z wasamasa: the text names two things
2018-04-24T21:39:51Z wasamasa: one thing is y, the other is x/y
2018-04-24T21:40:19Z TheGreekOwl: Te average of y and x/y is...
2018-04-24T21:40:30Z wasamasa: something closer to the square root
2018-04-24T21:40:42Z TheGreekOwl: ((y+x/)y)/2?
2018-04-24T21:42:44Z aeth: Things that don't look clear become a lot clearer with let imo: (let ((operation (if (> b 0) + -))) (operation a b))
2018-04-24T21:42:49Z aeth: Well, the multiple line version of that is clear
2018-04-24T21:43:07Z TheGreekOwl: aeth, I already solved it, but thanks.
2018-04-24T21:43:16Z TheGreekOwl: I just got confused at the + - part after the predicate
2018-04-24T21:43:35Z TheGreekOwl: Slipped up, then realized thats the concequent and the alternative.
2018-04-24T21:43:44Z aeth: TheGreekOwl: I'm just suggesting to name intermediate steps to make it easier to read next time
2018-04-24T21:43:57Z TheGreekOwl: Oh, I see.
2018-04-24T21:43:58Z aeth: (and let* instead of let if there is more than one)
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2018-04-24T21:44:34Z TheGreekOwl: I'm reading the wikipedia article of Newton's method, seems to me I need to go back and learn some calculus
2018-04-24T21:45:05Z wasamasa: not really
2018-04-24T21:45:12Z wasamasa: you just need to read carefully
2018-04-24T21:45:41Z wasamasa: there's exactly one exercise actually requiring math skills, the one where they ask you to write up a proof
2018-04-24T21:46:11Z TheGreekOwl: Ok, I'll try to break down the paragraph into sentences and then into pseudo code to understand
2018-04-24T21:46:14Z TheGreekOwl: I
2018-04-24T21:46:21Z TheGreekOwl: I'll pop here if I need help.
2018-04-24T21:46:24Z TheGreekOwl: Much thanks~
2018-04-24T21:47:32Z Zipheir: SICP? Isn't there a whole section on writing a differential equation solver?
2018-04-24T21:48:48Z wasamasa: that's just mechanically translating the rules stated there
2018-04-24T21:49:14Z wasamasa: I never actually learned the differential notation used there
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2018-04-24T21:49:47Z wasamasa: for the dampening exercise, I found it very useful to actually graph the results (and found out I did it wrong)
2018-04-24T21:50:13Z Zipheir: Yeah, I need to re-read that section.
2018-04-24T21:50:42Z Zipheir: That and the somewhat nightmarish non-deterministic interpreter
2018-04-24T21:50:51Z wasamasa: that I've yet to do
2018-04-24T21:51:05Z wasamasa: I'm still at the second chapter, looking at sets
2018-04-24T21:53:51Z Zipheir: The succeed/fail continuation design is easy to understand, but when all the backtracking procedures interact it gets tough.
2018-04-24T21:54:23Z Zipheir: SICP can be a bit of a brain-melter in places.
2018-04-24T21:57:50Z TheGreekOwl: Zipheir, you tell me
2018-04-24T21:57:54Z TheGreekOwl: Apparentely I haven't even begun
2018-04-24T21:57:57Z TheGreekOwl: I'm still at chapter 1
2018-04-24T21:58:08Z TheGreekOwl: It took me 3 hours to do one set of exercises
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2018-04-24T22:00:59Z Zipheir: Yeah, but you can do that book again and again and learn new things each time.
2018-04-24T22:01:26Z Zipheir: I often call SICP the Well-Tempered Clavier of programming, in that sense.
2018-04-24T22:09:20Z Zipheir: It might be difficult at first, but it's hard because it's incredibly rich. The first time through is like the beginning of the journey.
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2018-04-24T22:49:43Z TheGreekOwl: Zipheir, it is like that
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2018-04-25T00:28:11Z duncanm: anyone who's a current student here? anyone with springerlink access?
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2018-04-25T00:34:51Z Riastradh: duncanm: First, tried sci-hub?
2018-04-25T00:35:03Z duncanm: oh, what's that?
2018-04-25T00:35:13Z Riastradh: http://sci-hub.hk/
2018-04-25T00:35:42Z Riastradh: It's an act of civil disobedience against the academic publisher cartels.
2018-04-25T00:35:53Z duncanm: .hk!
2018-04-25T00:36:08Z duncanm: let me try
2018-04-25T00:36:20Z Riastradh: It moves around.
2018-04-25T00:36:39Z Riastradh: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sci-Hub
2018-04-25T00:37:02Z Riastradh: Oh, hey, it works with https now.
2018-04-25T00:37:17Z duncanm: heh
2018-04-25T00:37:21Z duncanm: wow
2018-04-25T00:37:29Z duncanm: woohoo
2018-04-25T00:37:55Z duncanm: Riastradh: wow, this is super cool
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2018-04-25T00:46:46Z Riastradh: Sci-Hub is awesome, and Alexandra Elbakyan is a badass.
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2018-04-25T00:52:08Z Riastradh: I recommend that academics use it too, so that when universities review usage statistics for the cartel's own locked-down paywalls, they will see dwindling numbers that make it hard to justify coughing up the extortion money in the publishers' protection racket.
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2018-04-25T00:55:05Z Riastradh: Ideally, once we slay the publishing cartels, then the universities can devote a fraction of those funds to hosting Sci-Hub mirrors instead, so that the digital Library of Alexandria will never burn.  But we're a ways away from that today.
2018-04-25T00:56:11Z Zipheir: Library of Alexandra. FTFY
2018-04-25T00:56:55Z Riastradh: Thanks.  Sometimes the palatalization of these consonant-vowel clusters in Russian is a little tricky for foreigners like me!
2018-04-25T00:58:35Z Zipheir: You were correct. That was a pun. :)
2018-04-25T00:58:54Z Riastradh: Yes, I know, I was just linguistically riffing on your pun!
2018-04-25T00:59:53Z Zipheir: It's really impressive how SciHub kind of acts like a DOI->PDF function.
2018-04-25T01:00:20Z Riastradh: Yes, much more reliable than dx.doi.org for those outside the ivory towers!
2018-04-25T01:00:21Z Zipheir: Just wish they had an API or something...
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2018-04-25T01:15:10Z Stream11_: can i get help with exercise 56 from htdp?
2018-04-25T01:22:08Z elly doesn't have htdp
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2018-04-25T01:29:32Z Zipheir: Stream11_: Can you paste something?
2018-04-25T01:29:52Z elly: (not here, on a pastebin)
2018-04-25T01:32:06Z Stream11_: https://pastebin.com/fFwvh4K8
2018-04-25T01:33:37Z Stream11_: i have problem with stop-when
2018-04-25T01:34:30Z Stream11_: because state is string or number
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2018-04-25T01:36:02Z Zipheir: stop-when doesn't seem to be in the paste...
2018-04-25T01:36:39Z Zipheir: Oh, that's what you're trying to write.
2018-04-25T01:37:23Z Stream11_: i tryed with stop-when it doesnt work as it should
2018-04-25T01:38:11Z Stream11_: the stop doesnt work at all
2018-04-25T01:39:24Z Stream11_: i need to ask all the time if x is some number that represents image when rocket is above scene, but i cant use (= x 0) because x can be string
2018-04-25T01:39:51Z Zipheir: Why can x be a string? That seems weird.
2018-04-25T01:40:03Z Stream11_: because of how program is designed
2018-04-25T01:40:25Z Stream11_: it launches a rocket when u press space, if u dont press it, rocket stands still
2018-04-25T01:40:43Z elly: Zipheir: HtDP introduces how not to have it be a string basically right after this exercise
2018-04-25T01:40:43Z Stream11_: the state before rocket is launched is supposed to be string
2018-04-25T01:41:08Z elly: Stream11_: perhaps string? and number? would be helpful?
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2018-04-25T01:42:28Z Zipheir: Stream11_: The first thing to do in each function that takes a state argument is to determine whether it's a string or number. Currently you've got that mixed up with the computations you're doing.
2018-04-25T01:42:58Z Zipheir: e.g. this is definitely wrong: (if (= 300 (if (string? x) -3 x)) #t #f)
2018-04-25T01:43:16Z Stream11_: because idk what to do
2018-04-25T01:43:49Z Zipheir: (cond ((number? x) (do-number-stuff ...)) ((string? x) (do-string-stuff ...))
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2018-04-25T01:45:45Z Stream11_: the stop-when needs a boolean so i need to make a procedure that takes x which can be number or string and get #t when (= x 0) while x when it is a number is constantly changing
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2018-04-25T01:48:36Z Zipheir: Stream11_: So it's a function of one arg that returns a boolean? What if x is a string?
2018-04-25T01:49:21Z Stream11_: (define (stop4 x) (cond
2018-04-25T01:49:21Z Stream11_:                     [(number? x) (= x 0)]
2018-04-25T01:49:21Z Stream11_:                     [(string? x) #f])) i think this one works
2018-04-25T01:50:10Z Zipheir: Stream11_: That looks fine.
2018-04-25T01:50:38Z Zipheir: Stream11_: Although you can make it shorter.
2018-04-25T01:51:39Z Zipheir: Similarly, you can rewrite stop2 to get rid of the outer if.
2018-04-25T01:53:04Z Stream11_: somewhy if i make (= x 1) it doesnt work
2018-04-25T01:53:04Z Zipheir: (Actually, (stop2 x) for string x is just the constant #f, as you've written it.)
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2018-04-25T01:53:57Z Stream11_: stop 2 really stops but at wrong moment
2018-04-25T01:55:45Z Stream11_: problem with stop4 is that you can still see bottom of rocket, while exercise requires to stop only when rocket is out of sight
2018-04-25T01:56:16Z Zipheir: You should probably debug these functions before trying to run the whole program.
2018-04-25T01:56:36Z Stream11_: which functions exactly?
2018-04-25T01:57:24Z Zipheir: The ones that aren't doing what you expect them to do.
2018-04-25T01:58:16Z Zipheir: OK, take stop. What values of x do you expect it to return #t for?
2018-04-25T01:58:37Z Stream11_: idk i thought 0 will be fine but it isnt
2018-04-25T01:58:54Z Stream11_: it starts with 300 and decreases, when it gets -1 it restarts
2018-04-25T01:59:45Z Zipheir: So what does that mean in terms of stop? Should (stop -1) be #t?
2018-04-25T02:00:00Z Zipheir: (I don't know the rest of this, so I'm trying to understand what these predicates do.)
2018-04-25T02:02:11Z Stream11_: idk i think stop cant be -1 because when u launch main2 it starts with -3 then counts to 0 and lifts off changing from 0 to 300 and then decreasing
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2018-04-25T02:05:04Z Stream11_: i just added stop procedure and stop-when to big-bang, rest is just given from the book
2018-04-25T02:07:36Z Zipheir: So stop takes a single argument, returns #f if it's a string, and otherwise tests if x is in some range.
2018-04-25T02:08:10Z Zipheir: If I'm right so far, my question is what's the range for which (stop x) is #t?
2018-04-25T02:08:27Z Stream11_: idk
2018-04-25T02:09:18Z Stream11_: because of how the program is made it is hard to understand when the rocket disappears
2018-04-25T02:10:41Z Zipheir: OK.
2018-04-25T02:11:04Z Stream11_: we start program with (main "resting") the argument is "resting". then we press space to start countdown, at this moment argument is -3 -2 -1, then it becomes 300 at since then 300 decreases with tick when it gets to 0 it then gets to -1 again and all again
2018-04-25T02:12:32Z Stream11_: at -3 -2 -1 and 300 the rocket is on land at 0 it is almost disappeared
2018-04-25T02:15:28Z Zipheir: So there is some count value at which the simulation should stop.
2018-04-25T02:15:29Z Stream11_: so its like we need a negative number for rocket to disappear but when it reaches closest negative like -1 it restarts, or when you launch it will become -1 and stop before even lifting off
2018-04-25T02:16:14Z Stream11_: it should stop when rocket disappears
2018-04-25T02:16:27Z Stream11_: above scene
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2018-04-25T02:19:24Z Stream11_: i think we can tell if rocket disappeared only with a number, idk a procedure in racket that tests if and image rocket is outside of scene
2018-04-25T02:20:04Z Zipheir: You have a function 'show' that draws the rocket image, right?
2018-04-25T02:20:15Z Stream11_: yes
2018-04-25T02:21:08Z Stream11_: [to-draw show]
2018-04-25T02:21:12Z Zipheir: So if you would be drawing it outside of the 300x100 grid, the simulation should stop?
2018-04-25T02:22:05Z Stream11_: yes, but idk how all this scenes images work, maybe it would think that image is still inside even with -300
2018-04-25T02:24:22Z Zipheir: show computes the position at which to draw from the count, e.g. [(>= x 0) (place-image ROCKET 10 (- x CENTER) BACKG)], so shouldn't you be able to decide whether to stop from x?
2018-04-25T02:26:46Z Stream11_:  i think the x is looped because of show
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2018-04-25T02:31:15Z Stream11_: ok very strange but i ve ran main2 on very slow speed and stoped it manually when rocket disappears, argument is 0, but when i use (= x 0) in my stop4 the bottom of rocket is still visible
2018-04-25T02:37:32Z Stream11_: if argument becomes -1 i think it will disappear, i ve tested, it can go up to -3 before restarting, -3 will make it disappear from the scene definately
2018-04-25T02:41:15Z Stream11_: so need to make stop true when x is -3
2018-04-25T02:41:51Z Zipheir: So (define (stop x) (and (number? x) (= x -3))) ?
2018-04-25T02:43:01Z Stream11_: that stops as soon as launch is started
2018-04-25T02:43:21Z Stream11_: i think its a problem with text
2018-04-25T02:44:14Z Zipheir: The looping is sort of weird. You could only test (stop x) after "liftoff" (using some kind of flag value), but that's awkward.
2018-04-25T02:45:16Z Zipheir: Or increase the upper bound of the count...
2018-04-25T02:45:30Z Stream11_: i think there is no condition for image when the x is less than -3 so it starts to draw it again
2018-04-25T02:47:33Z Stream11_: we have show for (<= -3 x -1) and (>= x 0) but not for (< x -3)
2018-04-25T02:51:14Z Stream11_: and i still dont understand why the bottom of rocket is visible when (= x 0) because i manually tested and it disappears at 0 maybe its -0,3 but the output shows only integers and decides to show 0
2018-04-25T02:53:49Z Stream11_: (define (stop5 x) (and (number? x) (= x 1))) doesnt stop at all
2018-04-25T02:55:23Z Zipheir: Shouldn't that stop immediately?
2018-04-25T02:55:36Z Stream11_: no
2018-04-25T02:55:45Z Zipheir: OK, I'm lost.
2018-04-25T02:55:46Z Stream11_: 1 is almost all the way up
2018-04-25T02:55:53Z Stream11_: 300 is at ground
2018-04-25T02:55:58Z Stream11_: it starts with 300
2018-04-25T02:55:59Z Zipheir: Ah, ok.
2018-04-25T02:56:02Z Stream11_: after launch
2018-04-25T02:56:38Z Zipheir: So -3, -2, -1, 0, 300, 299, ...
2018-04-25T02:56:42Z Stream11_: (place-image ROCKET 10 (- HEIGHT CENTER) BACKG) the height is 300
2018-04-25T02:56:52Z Zipheir: Got it.
2018-04-25T02:57:10Z Stream11_: i think its even -1 -2 -3 300 299 298
2018-04-25T02:57:40Z Stream11_: 298 297.... 1 0 -1 -2 -3 and then probably repeat
2018-04-25T02:57:41Z Zipheir: In that case, can you stop at (= x 0)?
2018-04-25T02:57:47Z Stream11_: i can
2018-04-25T02:57:56Z Stream11_: but part of rocket is visible
2018-04-25T02:58:12Z Stream11_: i think it can be stoped only at -3 -2 -1 and 0
2018-04-25T02:59:43Z Stream11_: the 10 at place-image is x and (- height center) is y
2018-04-25T02:59:57Z Zipheir: Right.
2018-04-25T03:01:52Z Zipheir: And you can't change the count to, say, start at 0?
2018-04-25T03:03:08Z Zipheir: Because if (stop -3) is sometimes #t and sometimes #f, it seems like you have to have some kind of state variable.
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2018-04-25T03:05:54Z Stream11_: (define (fly x)
2018-04-25T03:05:54Z Stream11_:   (cond
2018-04-25T03:05:54Z Stream11_:     [(string? x) x]
2018-04-25T03:05:54Z Stream11_:     [(<= -3 x -1) (if (= x -1) HEIGHT (+ x 1))]
2018-04-25T03:05:54Z Stream11_:     [(>= x 0) (- x YDELTA)]))
2018-04-25T03:06:54Z Stream11_: if (= x -1) then height which is 300 that loops it probably, but it doesnt restart even when it gets to -3
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2018-04-25T03:12:50Z Zipheir: That's a confusing function.
2018-04-25T03:13:29Z Stream11_: it goes -3 -2 -1 300 297
2018-04-25T03:14:23Z Stream11_: and then decreasing by 3 each step
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2018-04-25T03:15:08Z Zipheir: It's confusingly written, I mean.
2018-04-25T03:15:14Z Stream11_: the worst is that there are no solutions
2018-04-25T03:18:25Z Zipheir: (if (string? x) x (case x ((-3 -2) (+ x 1)) ((-1) HEIGHT) (else (- x YDELTA))))
2018-04-25T03:18:36Z Zipheir: Slightly clearer...
2018-04-25T03:19:03Z Zipheir: (and assuming x >= -3)
2018-04-25T03:22:48Z Stream11_: https://pastebin.com/ydhpE9Nv
2018-04-25T03:23:07Z Stream11_: i ve made it to show number for each step
2018-04-25T03:23:27Z Stream11_: but that counter stops at 3, while drracket output shows 0
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2018-04-25T03:31:39Z duncanm: hmm
2018-04-25T03:32:02Z duncanm: should SRFI-9 records work with SRFI-17 (generalized set!)
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2018-04-25T04:05:20Z Stream11_: thank you Zipheir for your help
2018-04-25T04:08:03Z Zipheir: Stream11_: Sorry I wasn't more helpful.
2018-04-25T04:08:40Z Zipheir: Stream11_: I'll need to get a copy of HTDP2e and read the whole section.
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2018-04-25T05:45:42Z duncanm: is there a SRFI for weak references?
2018-04-25T05:46:02Z duncanm: something like this - https://www.gnu.org/software/mit-scheme/documentation/mit-scheme-ref/Weak-Pairs.html#Weak-Pairs
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2018-04-25T05:57:27Z Hello: maybe https://srfi.schemers.org/srfi-124/srfi-124.html ?
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2018-04-25T06:11:54Z ecraven: ah, I really wish r7rs had sub-bytevector (or whatever name it would go by)
2018-04-25T06:12:55Z ecraven: ah, it actually has, bytevector-copy with start and end
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2018-04-25T16:04:45Z donalsd: Anyone here who has done SICP?
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2018-04-25T16:05:12Z donalsd: SICP experience anyone?
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2018-04-25T16:09:30Z duncanm: ah
2018-04-25T16:09:51Z duncanm: donalsd: yeah, we all know SICP here, just go right to what you wanna talk about
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2018-04-25T17:11:54Z cmaloney wonders if he is qualified to be here, having only made it through a few chapters of SICP. ;)
2018-04-25T17:12:25Z ecraven: cmaloney: everyone is qualified ;)
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2018-04-25T17:12:46Z cmaloney: I'm teasing
2018-04-25T17:13:28Z TGO: Alright alright so it took me lik 2 hours to figure this out
2018-04-25T17:13:31Z ecraven: also, it's only five chapters in total, so "a few" is most of the way through :P
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2018-04-25T17:14:31Z TheGreekOwl: Alright alright so it took me lik 2 hours to figure this out http://prntscr.com/ja1p57
2018-04-25T17:14:47Z TheGreekOwl: You have a guess, you have the square
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2018-04-25T17:15:15Z TheGreekOwl: You take x(2) and x/y (2/1)
2018-04-25T17:15:21Z TheGreekOwl: An you combine them and find the average of them
2018-04-25T17:15:29Z TheGreekOwl: Then you do it again until you're closer to what you want
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2018-04-25T17:19:55Z ecraven: you're always close, the main question is when to stop / how close you want to go
2018-04-25T17:19:59Z wasamasa: what if I told you that programming is like this all the time
2018-04-25T17:20:09Z ecraven: (disregarding ieee floating point errors)
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2018-04-25T17:25:28Z jcowan_: I actually have made it (in the sense of doing the exercises) through 0 chapters of SICP
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2018-04-25T17:34:13Z deuill: They're definitely worth it, but depending on each person's learning style, it may be easier to just work through the book and understand the underlying concepts first.
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2018-04-26T13:24:20Z xieyuheng: reading 5th chapter of `the litter prover`,
2018-04-26T13:24:21Z xieyuheng: wondering why we have to define car to be total : (define (car x) (if (pair? x) (s.car x) '()))
2018-04-26T13:24:49Z xieyuheng: if we do not have to redefine (if) and (car) maybe j-bob can be better embedded in scheme
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2018-04-26T13:29:58Z jcowan: xieyuheng: Other Lisps typically return () for both the car and cdr of ()
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2018-04-26T13:41:55Z xieyuheng: I will try to change them back to scheme functions
2018-04-26T13:42:06Z xieyuheng: after I read through the book
2018-04-26T13:42:43Z xieyuheng: hope to make the implementation simpler
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2018-04-27T02:58:53Z TheGreekOwl: http://prntscr.com/jangsa em...
2018-04-27T02:59:16Z TheGreekOwl: I need an enviroment to test scheme code
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2018-04-27T03:02:52Z akkad: `docker pull gerbil/scheme`
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2018-04-27T11:40:10Z ecraven: TIL: if you set an sqlite3 database to synchronous=off and WAL something, that setting is persisted in the database. you really need to set it back to synchronous=full after running those expensive inserts
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2018-04-27T11:47:09Z vyzo: how's that surprising?
2018-04-27T11:47:15Z vyzo: the pragmas persist
2018-04-27T11:47:17Z vyzo: as they should
2018-04-27T11:47:37Z vyzo: WAL is especially important
2018-04-27T11:47:55Z ecraven: yea, I didn't know that, I assumed I'd have to issue them again each time I re-opened the database
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2018-04-28T05:29:02Z TheGreekOwl: I need help
2018-04-28T05:34:07Z ecraven: ask away
2018-04-28T05:47:55Z TheGreekOwl: Alright
2018-04-28T05:47:58Z TheGreekOwl: https://mitpress.mit.edu/sites/default/files/sicp/full-text/book/book-Z-H-10.html1.
2018-04-28T05:48:07Z TheGreekOwl: 1.1.7
2018-04-28T05:48:09Z TheGreekOwl: Newton's method
2018-04-28T05:48:22Z TheGreekOwl: And exercise Exercise 1.6.
2018-04-28T05:48:35Z TheGreekOwl: I can't for the life of me understand or solve it
2018-04-28T05:48:50Z TheGreekOwl: Like, I realize the difference lies between one being a cond and the other an if
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2018-04-28T06:02:17Z TheGreekOwl: This is some obtuse shit
2018-04-28T06:02:21Z Zipheir`: TheGreekOwl: Go through the steps of applying new-if
2018-04-28T06:02:32Z TheGreekOwl: I did.
2018-04-28T06:03:13Z Zipheir`: Did you see what's wrong with it?
2018-04-28T06:03:41Z TheGreekOwl: I have no fucking clue.
2018-04-28T06:03:48Z TheGreekOwl: Ok, I kid, I do have some sort of clue
2018-04-28T06:04:15Z Zipheir`: What clue?
2018-04-28T06:04:15Z TheGreekOwl: The difference between an If and a switch is that and IF has only 3 states, while a switch can have infinite.
2018-04-28T06:04:38Z TheGreekOwl: Or rather, IF(predict,do this, else do this)
2018-04-28T06:04:50Z TheGreekOwl: But in her example
2018-04-28T06:05:13Z TheGreekOwl: She turned the (else do this) into (else, do this)
2018-04-28T06:05:21Z TheGreekOwl: Which in switch
2018-04-28T06:05:39Z TheGreekOwl: It's like <p2> <n2>
2018-04-28T06:05:55Z TheGreekOwl: I think it will treat the p2 as a true statement, since its the else
2018-04-28T06:06:01Z Zipheir`: You're on the wrong track. The point is she defined a _function_ that seems to behave the same way as the if special form.
2018-04-28T06:06:04Z TheGreekOwl: When it could be just a function or a comparison that wont work
2018-04-28T06:06:12Z TheGreekOwl: ?
2018-04-28T06:06:17Z TheGreekOwl: So it references it self?
2018-04-28T06:07:04Z Zipheir`: Try this: how do you evaluate (foo (+ 4 4)) in scheme?
2018-04-28T06:07:46Z TheGreekOwl: foo?
2018-04-28T06:07:47Z TheGreekOwl: Em
2018-04-28T06:07:51Z Zipheir`: (for some function foo)
2018-04-28T06:07:57Z TheGreekOwl: foo 8?
2018-04-28T06:08:04Z Zipheir`: How did you get 8?
2018-04-28T06:08:24Z TheGreekOwl: By doing evaluative order operation, AKA doing the arguments first
2018-04-28T06:08:27Z TheGreekOwl: Then expanding the Foo
2018-04-28T06:08:38Z Zipheir`: Applicative order, but year.
2018-04-28T06:08:39Z Zipheir`: *yeah
2018-04-28T06:09:04Z TheGreekOwl: So
2018-04-28T06:09:08Z TheGreekOwl: In this case
2018-04-28T06:09:11Z Zipheir`: So how do you evaluate (new-if pred-clause then-clause else-clause)?
2018-04-28T06:09:50Z TheGreekOwl: new-if is the name... pred clause is the prediction
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2018-04-28T06:10:11Z TheGreekOwl: If the prediction aint true, go to then clause
2018-04-28T06:10:17Z Zipheir`: Slow down!
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2018-04-28T06:10:29Z Zipheir`: I'm just asking what steps you follow to evaluate that.
2018-04-28T06:10:53Z TheGreekOwl: I mean, you first do operation/comparisons?
2018-04-28T06:11:10Z TheGreekOwl: This is cond after all
2018-04-28T06:11:33Z Zipheir`: No, it's not cond. new-if is a function, so you first evaluate ...
2018-04-28T06:11:45Z TheGreekOwl: Oh
2018-04-28T06:11:46Z TheGreekOwl: OH
2018-04-28T06:12:09Z TheGreekOwl: You can't just make an if/cond thing that's pre-build into the system into a compound operation like that?
2018-04-28T06:12:43Z Zipheir`: What happens when I try (new-if #t 'yay (/ 1 0))
2018-04-28T06:12:55Z TheGreekOwl: It will...
2018-04-28T06:12:57Z TheGreekOwl: Invalid
2018-04-28T06:13:12Z Zipheir`: It is very invalid.
2018-04-28T06:13:25Z Zipheir`: What about (if #t 'yay (/ 1 0))?
2018-04-28T06:13:26Z TheGreekOwl: Or rather, it will first do #t
2018-04-28T06:14:09Z TheGreekOwl: I mean, if the prediction is true, it will go to 'yay
2018-04-28T06:14:14Z TheGreekOwl: Else it will return an invalid
2018-04-28T06:14:52Z TheGreekOwl: Still don't get the difference between those two examples you gave actually...
2018-04-28T06:14:54Z Zipheir`: if will do that. new-if will always divide by zero, even in (new-if #f 'yay (/ 1 0))
2018-04-28T06:15:07Z TheGreekOwl: But why?
2018-04-28T06:15:11Z TheGreekOwl: After all, isn't it
2018-04-28T06:15:24Z fibratio` is now known as fibration
2018-04-28T06:15:26Z Zipheir`: For the same reason that (foo (+ 4 4)) means (foo 8)
2018-04-28T06:15:26Z TheGreekOwl: If <p1> <n1> and <p1> is true
2018-04-28T06:15:40Z TheGreekOwl: So
2018-04-28T06:15:56Z TheGreekOwl: It has to do with how the computer evaluates stuff
2018-04-28T06:16:04Z Zipheir`: How scheme evaluates stuff.
2018-04-28T06:16:06Z TheGreekOwl: In this case, how new-if does
2018-04-28T06:16:14Z TheGreekOwl: But new-if inside is a cond
2018-04-28T06:16:19Z TheGreekOwl: So it has to do with how cond evaluates stuff
2018-04-28T06:16:19Z TheGreekOwl: ?
2018-04-28T06:16:29Z Zipheir`: Hint: In my example, new-if never even gets to cond
2018-04-28T06:16:55Z TheGreekOwl: I mean,
2018-04-28T06:17:03Z Zipheir`: Because in order to apply new-if, we need the value of all its arguments.
2018-04-28T06:17:09Z TheGreekOwl: Isn't new-if a function with 3 variables organized into a compound cond?
2018-04-28T06:17:14Z TheGreekOwl: Oh
2018-04-28T06:17:17Z TheGreekOwl: Wait
2018-04-28T06:17:21Z TheGreekOwl: WAIT
2018-04-28T06:17:22Z TheGreekOwl: So it will
2018-04-28T06:17:32Z TheGreekOwl: I
2018-04-28T06:17:35Z TheGreekOwl: I think I get it?
2018-04-28T06:17:43Z TheGreekOwl: New-if can only have 3 variables
2018-04-28T06:17:46Z TheGreekOwl: Three states
2018-04-28T06:17:51Z TheGreekOwl: but cond has like
2018-04-28T06:17:57Z TheGreekOwl: It can have infinite states?
2018-04-28T06:18:04Z TheGreekOwl: Whereas a regular old IF has only 3
2018-04-28T06:18:21Z Zipheir`: Nope.
2018-04-28T06:18:23Z TheGreekOwl: So new-if will try to do its operations... and it wont work?
2018-04-28T06:18:49Z Zipheir`: The _only_ difference here is that if is a special form and new-if is a function.
2018-04-28T06:19:08Z TheGreekOwl: Alright,
2018-04-28T06:19:35Z TheGreekOwl: So it has to do with special forms, and functions AKA compound operations that in this case mimic a special form
2018-04-28T06:19:43Z Zipheir`: Right.
2018-04-28T06:20:07Z TheGreekOwl: Alright, I'm getting closer
2018-04-28T06:20:12Z Zipheir`: And, as you said before, it has to do with how Scheme evaluates stuff.
2018-04-28T06:20:19Z TheGreekOwl: The idea is that the IF in this case
2018-04-28T06:20:29Z TheGreekOwl: The IF doesn't evaluate and do operations within its arguements
2018-04-28T06:20:35Z TheGreekOwl: Since its a special form
2018-04-28T06:20:39Z TheGreekOwl: But the function needs to know it
2018-04-28T06:20:43Z Zipheir`: Bingo.
2018-04-28T06:21:58Z TheGreekOwl: In pseudo code, its  new-if ((abs(y^2 - x) < 0.001), y, x/((x + y)/2), x))
2018-04-28T06:22:01Z TheGreekOwl: The example in 1.6
2018-04-28T06:22:44Z TheGreekOwl: So it will do the arguements here... what would be the problem exactly, its not like it will divide by zero as you pointed out
2018-04-28T06:25:36Z Zipheir`: (define (sqrt-iter guess x) .. (new-if (good-enough? guess x) guess (sqrt-iter (improve guess x) x)))
2018-04-28T06:25:38Z Zipheir`: That one?
2018-04-28T06:26:06Z TheGreekOwl: yeap
2018-04-28T06:26:28Z TheGreekOwl: I broke the compounds down
2018-04-28T06:26:33Z TheGreekOwl: So I could see the mmore clearly...
2018-04-28T06:26:53Z Zipheir`: What happens when (good-enough guess x) is #f?
2018-04-28T06:27:18Z TheGreekOwl: The heck is #f?
2018-04-28T06:27:26Z Zipheir`: Sorry, false
2018-04-28T06:27:34Z TheGreekOwl: I, em...
2018-04-28T06:27:38Z Zipheir`: SICP introduces that later, I forgot.
2018-04-28T06:27:56Z TheGreekOwl: So if the function is... false?
2018-04-28T06:27:56Z Zipheir`: We evaluate (sqrt-iter (improve guess x) x), right?
2018-04-28T06:28:02Z TheGreekOwl: Yeap
2018-04-28T06:28:29Z Zipheir`: But new-if needs to know the values of all its arguments, so... ?
2018-04-28T06:28:57Z TheGreekOwl: It wil ltry to improve guess x?
2018-04-28T06:29:21Z Zipheir`: Which means recursively calling sqrt-iter, then evaluating the (new-if...) expression again
2018-04-28T06:29:42Z TheGreekOwl: ...?
2018-04-28T06:29:46Z TheGreekOwl: Give me a second
2018-04-28T06:30:24Z TheGreekOwl: It will try to
2018-04-28T06:30:48Z TheGreekOwl: So you're saying
2018-04-28T06:30:55Z TheGreekOwl brain melts.
2018-04-28T06:31:10Z TheGreekOwl: Can you elaborate
2018-04-28T06:31:38Z TheGreekOwl: On that last sentence
2018-04-28T06:31:47Z TheGreekOwl: Like, how will (Improve guess x) be folded out?
2018-04-28T06:32:00Z TheGreekOwl: (Improve (sqrt-iter guess x))
2018-04-28T06:32:02Z TheGreekOwl: No wait thats silly
2018-04-28T06:32:12Z Zipheir`: (sqrt-iter (improve guess x) x)
2018-04-28T06:33:43Z TheGreekOwl: ...?
2018-04-28T06:34:06Z Zipheir`: So if to evaluate that new-if expression we have to evaluate all its arguments, we need to know the value of (sqrt-iter (improve guess x) x)
2018-04-28T06:34:56Z TheGreekOwl: Yeap
2018-04-28T06:35:29Z Zipheir`: Recurring, that means we need the value of (new-if (good-enough? guess x) guess (sqrt-iter (improve guess x) x))
2018-04-28T06:35:55Z TheGreekOwl: Yes
2018-04-28T06:36:22Z Zipheir`: Which means we need to recur again, right?
2018-04-28T06:37:25Z TheGreekOwl: Oh
2018-04-28T06:37:32Z TheGreekOwl: If this was a special form, it wouldn't need to do it
2018-04-28T06:38:59Z Zipheir`: Well, if new-if evaluates all its args, will we ever stop recurring?
2018-04-28T06:39:15Z TheGreekOwl: It will continue recurring it self
2018-04-28T06:39:26Z TheGreekOwl: Caught in an infitie loop of evaluation
2018-04-28T06:39:44Z Zipheir`: Right
2018-04-28T06:39:57Z Zipheir`: Do you see why new-if doesn't work?
2018-04-28T06:40:27Z TheGreekOwl: Because as a fucntion, it has to refer back to it self?
2018-04-28T06:40:52Z TheGreekOwl: It goes sqrt-iter > newif >sqrt-iter >newif...
2018-04-28T06:40:55Z Zipheir`: No, because of how arguments are evaluated.
2018-04-28T06:41:24Z Zipheir`: Look back at my divide-by-zero example.
2018-04-28T06:41:59Z TheGreekOwl: Oh.
2018-04-28T06:42:14Z TheGreekOwl: Yeah
2018-04-28T06:44:52Z Zipheir`: We don't have this bug with if, because if only evaluates what it needs to.
2018-04-28T06:45:27Z TheGreekOwl: It doesn't do the operations first you mean, like a function would
2018-04-28T06:47:25Z Zipheir`: That's the right idea.
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2018-04-28T06:48:05Z TheGreekOwl: So
2018-04-28T06:48:12Z TheGreekOwl: Newif will try to do (sqrt-iter (improve guess x) x)
2018-04-28T06:48:25Z TheGreekOwl: Evaluate it
2018-04-28T06:48:46Z TheGreekOwl: It will first do (improve guess x)
2018-04-28T06:49:46Z Zipheir`: Right.
2018-04-28T06:49:52Z TheGreekOwl: But to do that...
2018-04-28T06:51:05Z TheGreekOwl: http://prntscr.com/jb54ak
2018-04-28T06:51:50Z TheGreekOwl: It will do this?
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2018-04-28T06:52:30Z Zipheir`: (improve x) isn't a problem to evaluate.
2018-04-28T06:53:01Z Zipheir`: The problem is the recursive sqrt-iter to sqrt-iter to sqrt-iter to sqrt-iter to ... call
2018-04-28T06:53:26Z Zipheir`: Which will never 'bottom out' because why?
2018-04-28T06:54:08Z TheGreekOwl: Because cond has infinite combinations?
2018-04-28T06:54:16Z TheGreekOwl: I mean, predictions
2018-04-28T06:54:36Z TheGreekOwl: It never does the else part, it keeps evaluating
2018-04-28T06:54:41Z TheGreekOwl: It never gets to that part
2018-04-28T06:54:56Z Zipheir`: It never does the cond part!
2018-04-28T06:55:03Z TheGreekOwl: ...
2018-04-28T06:55:09Z TheGreekOwl: Alright
2018-04-28T06:55:24Z TheGreekOwl: I'm going to find out whoever recommended me this book and punch them in the dick.
2018-04-28T06:55:36Z Zipheir`: Heh.
2018-04-28T06:55:43Z Zipheir`: Take a break, maybe.
2018-04-28T06:56:01Z Zipheir`: You've been really close to the answer several times.
2018-04-28T06:56:19Z TheGreekOwl: this is supposed to be intro to CS
2018-04-28T06:58:43Z TheGreekOwl: http://prntscr.com/jb567t oh my god, sane exercises
2018-04-28T07:00:56Z Zipheir`: Why are those saner than the others?
2018-04-28T07:01:18Z TheGreekOwl: IT seems clearer then 1.6
2018-04-28T07:03:29Z Zipheir`: Oh, btw, since this chapter covers applicative vs. normal order, new-if works *fine* in normal order.
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2018-04-28T07:11:32Z Zipheir`: Strike that, nvm, I just reread the exercise.
2018-04-28T07:21:01Z TheGreekOwl: http://prntscr.com/jb5cel I want to strangle humanity
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2018-04-28T07:32:33Z donalsd: I am in page 101 of SICP, dealing with lists. They look like Linked Lists but act like arrays. Are they something in between, either of them or none of them?
2018-04-28T07:34:21Z donalsd: Oh they are more like Linked Lists, I suppose.
2018-04-28T07:36:34Z Zipheir`: Singly-linked, to be specific.
2018-04-28T07:40:13Z donalsd: Uh, yeah. SICP drains a lot out of you with electrical engineering problem solving exercises and then it introduces things like lists and calms your head down.
2018-04-28T07:41:00Z donalsd: Exercise 2.11 is bad. Very bad.
2018-04-28T07:42:07Z donalsd: Does using a keyword as a formal parameter to a procedure affect the parameter?
2018-04-28T07:43:31Z donalsd: I was using "list" as a formal parameter to "list-ref", doesn't seem to affect anyone. Weird.
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2018-04-28T07:47:47Z Zipheir`: a keyword?
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2018-04-28T07:48:31Z donalsd: Erm, sorry. A compiled procedure. Zipheir`
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2018-04-28T07:50:58Z Zipheir`: Yeah, you can bind built-in function names, they aren't reserved.
2018-04-28T07:53:33Z Zipheir`: Though stuff like ((lambda (n m +) (+ n m)) 3 2 -) is clearly odious. :-)
2018-04-28T07:55:27Z donalsd: Oh yes. Probably avoiding them is the best choice. Other languages enforce the constraints and it felt weird.
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2018-04-28T14:48:05Z wasamasa: aeth: I finally looked at the rabbit paper and noticed it says that people crazy enough to reimplement it with extensions should please send their work to gerald sussmann
2018-04-28T14:48:51Z wasamasa: aeth: so, maybe you should
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2018-04-28T15:00:55Z jcowan: I'm thinking about how to implement an enumeration types SRFI.  To do it the way I want to, I need to have an (abstract) map to convert from symbolic names to enum objects.
2018-04-28T15:01:31Z jcowan: I'm kind of inclined to use an a-list for this purpose, on the assumption that this is a rare operation (people will normally bind a variable to each enum object directly using a define-enum-type macro)
2018-04-28T15:02:00Z jcowan: and not having to build a dependency on SRFI 69 or SRFI 125 would be a Good Thing, particularly if most enum sets are not very large.
2018-04-28T15:02:06Z jcowan: Does anyone have insight on this?
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2018-04-28T15:19:36Z Riastradh: jcowan: You could use two ordered arrays to admit binary search!
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2018-04-28T19:09:09Z jcowan: Riastradh: Indeed, provided that symbol->string is reasonably efficient.  Actually even with linear search a vector of pairs is a fairly good idea, since the size of an enum set is fixed.
2018-04-28T19:09:15Z jcowan: (at creation time)
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2018-04-28T19:18:36Z Zipheir: Is there any common idiom for case analysis on a string value? This came up recently in #chicken and I'm curious if there's any way around the lengthy (cond ((string=? ...) ...) ((string=? ...) ...) ...) expression.
2018-04-28T19:19:17Z Zipheir: (Assuming, of course, we can't safely do (case (string->symbol s) ...) on the string to be tested)
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2018-04-28T19:28:30Z Zipheir: Or, rather, in cases where we really _don't_ want to symbolify the string to avoid awkward case clauses.
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2018-04-28T19:36:15Z wasamasa: it's probably not going to be efficient anyway
2018-04-28T19:36:23Z wasamasa: if you need such a thing, consider using a trie
2018-04-28T19:37:27Z Zipheir: Right.
2018-04-28T19:37:50Z Zipheir: Thanks, wasamasa.
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2018-04-28T19:43:11Z daviid: hoa about writing your own macro, string-case or something...
2018-04-28T19:43:22Z daviid: then your1d need string-ci-case
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2018-04-28T19:49:04Z Zipheir: daviid: Yeah, a string-case macro might be worth it in some rare cases
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2018-04-28T22:28:12Z jcowan: does anyone remember which Scheme uses ropes internally as Scheme strings?
2018-04-28T22:28:17Z jcowan: ultra-fast append performance
2018-04-28T22:28:26Z jcowan: s/append/string-append/, obvs
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2018-04-28T22:36:33Z pierpa: I seem to remember that scheme->C came with an implementation of ropes in its standard distribution, but didn't use them as normal string.
2018-04-28T22:37:52Z gwatt: jcowan: picrin does
2018-04-28T22:39:49Z pierpa: I misremembered. I was thinking about the BDW GC.
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2018-04-28T22:41:28Z jcowan: yes, picrin, thanks
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2018-04-29T04:25:41Z duncanm: hey hey jcowan_
2018-04-29T04:26:16Z duncanm: jcowan_: do you know about the history of the putprop/getprop API?
2018-04-29T04:26:40Z duncanm: I first saw it in Digital's Scheme->C, but later, I saw that it's also available in Chez and some other implementations
2018-04-29T04:26:51Z duncanm: is there a reason why it wasn't standardized?
2018-04-29T04:27:32Z jcowan_: duncanm: It goes back to very early Lisps
2018-04-29T04:27:57Z duncanm: I guess I know of it from Clojure too, it has its `meta` system, which is similar
2018-04-29T04:28:02Z jcowan_: Scheme turned its back on the idea of symbol property lists for the most part, though they are still very important in Common Lisp and I think Elisp.
2018-04-29T04:28:18Z duncanm: https://clojure.org/reference/metadata
2018-04-29T04:28:27Z jcowan_: Long ago, the global value of a symbol as well as its function definition were stored on the property list.
2018-04-29T04:28:33Z jcowan_: This is no longer true in CL
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2018-04-29T04:28:46Z jcowan_: I don't know exactly why property lists were abandoned in Scheme.
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2018-04-29T04:29:25Z jcowan_: However, the idea of a "disembodied property list", an alternation of flags and their values (as opposed to pairs of keys and values in an alist) is still used sometimes
2018-04-29T04:29:30Z daviid: i think chicken has a p-list (or so so) egg
2018-04-29T04:30:13Z jcowan_: Chicken's plists used to be a build option only, but I suggested a long while back (around Chicken 3) that they be made a regular part of the build
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2018-04-29T04:32:12Z jcowan: They make sense as an alternative to hash tables whose keys are a pair of symbols
2018-04-29T04:32:26Z jcowan: especially when the symbols are only sparsely used
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2018-04-29T09:52:29Z foojin: How do I define a recursive macro which doesn't reference its own name?
2018-04-29T09:52:34Z foojin: The following example only works if m is replaced by macro in the first template:
2018-04-29T09:52:37Z foojin: (letrec-syntax ((macro (syntax-rules () ((m ()) (m "empty")) ((m . args) (list "prefix" . args))))) (macro ()))
2018-04-29T09:58:14Z pjb: Why do you want to do that?
2018-04-29T09:58:43Z pjb: I mean the "doesn't reference its own name" part?
2018-04-29T10:00:01Z foojin: So that it would continue to work even after being renamed.
2018-04-29T10:01:34Z foojin: The report seems to imply that there's nothing special about the first element of the form that's being matched, so I thought that a pattern variable should work there too.
2018-04-29T10:02:12Z pjb: foojin: perhaps you can use the #= ## reader syntax.  Isn't it standardized in r7rs?
2018-04-29T10:02:35Z pjb: (letrec-syntax ((#1=macro (syntax-rules () ((#1# ()) (#1# "empty")) ((#1# . args) (list "prefix" . args))))) (macro ()))
2018-04-29T10:03:24Z Kooda: The name would continue working I think, thanks to hygiene.
2018-04-29T10:06:38Z foojin: pjb: I use a copy of r5rs as a reference, so I'm not familiar with r7rs and Guile doesn't seem to understand your example.
2018-04-29T10:06:47Z pjb: ok.
2018-04-29T10:07:08Z pjb: foojin: then perhaps you can use a macro to generate your macro. Then you could give the name in parameter only once.
2018-04-29T10:09:29Z foojin: pjb: Yeah, that would probably work. However the reason it doesn't work with a pattern variable as the first element is still unclear.
2018-04-29T10:10:37Z foojin: I've just checked it in Chicken and it does the same thing, assuming m to be a toplevel binding.
2018-04-29T10:10:38Z pjb: foojin: I must confess I'm not quite at ease with hygienic macros either.
2018-04-29T10:10:45Z Kooda: foojin, if you call m macro, isn’t it working?
2018-04-29T10:11:12Z Kooda: It should, even if you give it an other name later, I think.
2018-04-29T10:12:52Z foojin: Kooda: Yes, replacing (m "empty") with (macro "empty") works as expected, but I can't use m in the template, even though it apparently matches the macro name during expansion.
2018-04-29T10:13:31Z Kooda: Why would you want that? It references macro anyways.
2018-04-29T10:15:52Z foojin: Kooda: I think it would be useful to replace its name once to rename it completely instead of replacing every occurence throughout the templates.
2018-04-29T10:16:26Z Kooda: You mean renaming by hand in the source code?
2018-04-29T10:16:37Z foojin: Kooda: Yes.
2018-04-29T10:17:06Z Kooda: Ah! I thought you wanted to rename it with another let-syntax or similar!
2018-04-29T10:18:35Z Kooda: I have no idea if what you want is possible, I’m sorry.
2018-04-29T10:18:46Z foojin: Not to mention that this exception messes with my mental model of expansion, so, unless I figure that out, I can no longer claim I understand it.
2018-04-29T10:20:28Z Kooda: The first part of a template is ignored completely if I remember correctly.
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2018-04-29T10:25:38Z foojin: Kooda: Yeah, that seems to be the case: "The keyword at the beginning of the pattern in a <syntax rule> is not involved in the matching and is not considered a pattern variable or literal identifier."
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2018-04-29T10:27:00Z Kooda: So it’s just there to make the pattern look nice. ^^'
2018-04-29T10:27:20Z foojin: They even mention this use case explicitly in the following paragraph. Well then, I'll try to do without it.
2018-04-29T10:27:57Z Kooda: You can rename your macro with scheme code. :)
2018-04-29T10:31:40Z foojin: Probably even write an identifier-substituting macro and use it all over the place. BTW, I have another macro question, this time about syntax-case.
2018-04-29T10:36:47Z foojin: So, what's the deal with syntax, datum->syntax and other stuff?
2018-04-29T10:36:47Z foojin: They seem to be "expressions", not some constructs that only syntax-case understands and destructures, because I can evaluate them in the REPL.
2018-04-29T10:36:55Z foojin: However, at the same time they are capable of interpreting pattern variables which only exist when syntax-case works with them.
2018-04-29T10:36:58Z foojin: Is there a "secret" pattern variable namespace that they try to access every time, but find empty in the REPL?
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2018-04-29T11:56:26Z gwatt: foojin: "syntax" is just a macro that records an expression's lexical scope
2018-04-29T11:57:33Z gwatt: As for the restriction that syntax-case must reference pattern variables with "syntax", I'm not sure why that exists.
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2018-04-29T12:08:41Z gwatt: "syntax" is very much like quoting: you also have quasisyntax, unsyntax, and unsyntax-splicing.
2018-04-29T12:09:19Z foojin: gwatt: I think that restriction implies either that "syntax" is somehow destructured by syntax-case to make substitutions possible or that there's a general way (probably not explicitly exposed to the user) for expressions to refer to pattern variables, which "syntax" uses.
2018-04-29T12:09:51Z gwatt: Could be
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2018-04-29T12:18:56Z foojin: To make it worse, datum->syntax also seems to be part of this uncertain situation. r6rs implies that the first argument to it is a "template identifier", not a syntax object.
2018-04-29T12:21:19Z foojin: So you can't just pass any syntax object, like the transformer argument that the outer lambda receives.
2018-04-29T12:24:28Z foojin: For example: (let-syntax ((macro (lambda (stx) (syntax-case stx () ((_) (datum->syntax stx 'x)))))) (let ((x '())) (cons 42 (macro))))
2018-04-29T12:26:05Z foojin: It expands properly and evaluates to (42), but passing stx to datum->syntax seems to be against the rules.
2018-04-29T12:27:02Z gwatt: yep
2018-04-29T12:27:41Z gwatt: In practice, it's not that bad since you know the first pattern variable in the template is always an identifier
2018-04-29T12:29:07Z weinholt: foojin, in what implementation does that expand properly?
2018-04-29T12:29:33Z gwatt: weinholt: I believe guile has that behavior
2018-04-29T12:30:30Z weinholt: ah... not the only thing that's weird about guile's macros
2018-04-29T12:39:29Z foojin: So, is (let-syntax ((macro (lambda (stx) (syntax-case stx () ((k) (datum->syntax #'k 'x)))))) (let ((x '())) (cons 42 (macro)))) the right way to write it?
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2018-04-29T12:46:42Z gwatt: seems to work
2018-04-29T12:57:11Z foojin: Then, if I abstract that datum->syntax invocation into a separate procedure, would it be necessary to use syntax-case in its body too and thus make the intended first argument available as a pattern variable?
2018-04-29T13:03:53Z foojin: That is, stuff everything that can possibly use pattern variables inside a syntax-case just to be sure?
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2018-04-29T13:27:20Z gwatt: no
2018-04-29T13:29:04Z gwatt: You merely need pass an identifier as the first argument to datum->syntax.
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2018-04-29T14:14:51Z foojin: gwatt: Ah, I see. So this "template identifier" rule isn't usually enforced.
2018-04-29T14:16:48Z gwatt: foojin: define "usually"
2018-04-29T14:16:55Z gwatt: chez and racket both enforce it
2018-04-29T14:18:30Z gwatt: hold on, I think I misunderstood your question
2018-04-29T14:19:14Z gwatt: a "template identifier" is a syntax object that wraps an identifier
2018-04-29T14:20:58Z gwatt: #'a #'b #'c are valid identifier tempaltes and #'"asdf" #'1 #'(a b c) are all invalid, according to r6rs
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2018-04-29T14:21:54Z gwatt: But the first argument to datum->syntax does not need to be a literal syntax object, or even one obtained from syntax-case
2018-04-29T14:22:25Z gwatt: This is also valid: (let ((id #'asdf)) (datum->syntax id 'a))
2018-04-29T14:22:34Z gwatt: It may not be useful, but it's valid
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2018-04-29T14:24:50Z foojin: I must have missed that definition, assuming it to mean "a pattern variable". Now it makes sense, in exactly the way it should.
2018-04-29T14:25:03Z amz3`: héllo #scheme
2018-04-29T14:26:03Z foojin: After all #'var is not a pattern variable either, but a (syntax var) in disguise.
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2018-04-29T14:29:27Z gwatt: "pattern variable" only means that it's on the left hand side of a syntax-case clause
2018-04-29T14:30:58Z gwatt: Now, if you use a pattern variable in the guard or right hand side of a syntax-case clause, you must use #' or (syntax ...) to reference it
2018-04-29T14:31:50Z amz3`: I am wonderign whether to continue my work on my database in chez or not
2018-04-29T14:32:56Z amz3`: It's difficult to debug chez code
2018-04-29T14:33:05Z amz3`: compared to guile
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2018-04-29T14:38:58Z wasamasa: it's a mystery to me why you'd develop a database in scheme anyways
2018-04-29T14:39:06Z wasamasa: other than to spite gavino on c.l.s
2018-04-29T14:39:18Z amz3: spite?
2018-04-29T14:39:31Z amz3: yes you are right, I did not spite gavino
2018-04-29T14:39:44Z amz3: I should, maybe she/he will have a good idea to proceed
2018-04-29T14:39:46Z amz3: ;)
2018-04-29T14:40:03Z wasamasa: nah
2018-04-29T14:40:12Z amz3: wasamasa: I contacted the person you recommend me
2018-04-29T14:40:29Z amz3: wasamasa: he replied, but then stopped to do so for some reason
2018-04-29T14:40:31Z wasamasa: gavino published only one scheme program in their trolling career
2018-04-29T14:40:38Z wasamasa: sven?
2018-04-29T14:40:42Z wasamasa: he must be busy
2018-04-29T14:40:46Z amz3: sven yes
2018-04-29T14:40:51Z amz3: yes
2018-04-29T14:41:04Z amz3: he told me they stopped their project at the uni :(
2018-04-29T14:41:09Z wasamasa: I've heard some more stories about him at this CHICKEN meetup
2018-04-29T14:41:29Z amz3: like what? isn't he using bigloo?
2018-04-29T14:41:31Z foojin: gwatt: So, returning to your earlier comment about the first pattern variable in the template, does that mean that the best way to obtain an identifier that comes from the context of the invocation is to use it?
2018-04-29T14:42:02Z amz3: I tried bigloo, but bigloo ffi is cryptic
2018-04-29T14:42:27Z wasamasa: sven recently posted on the chicken-hackers mailing list where he revealed he's using a mixture of bigloo, chez and CHICKEN
2018-04-29T14:42:53Z wasamasa: or no, CHICKEN, gambit, bigloo: http://lists.nongnu.org/archive/html/chicken-hackers/2018-03/msg00047.html
2018-04-29T14:43:06Z wasamasa: "In a sense, this tells you a lot about advantages (and disadvantages) of the current Scheme world."
2018-04-29T14:44:07Z wasamasa: awesome, isn't it
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2018-04-29T14:48:46Z amz3: woot
2018-04-29T14:49:14Z amz3: sven is always in the good stuff
2018-04-29T14:50:20Z wasamasa: the stories were basically about the topics he works on and how the workload is measured in CPU years
2018-04-29T14:50:28Z amz3: wtf
2018-04-29T14:50:36Z amz3: I mean nice
2018-04-29T14:50:41Z wasamasa: now you know why google has server farms :D
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2018-04-29T14:53:47Z amz3: I am wondering how to help in his endeavour
2018-04-29T14:53:53Z amz3: the thing is that most of it is closed source
2018-04-29T14:56:54Z wasamasa: only way I can think of is getting hired
2018-04-29T14:58:24Z amz3: yes
2018-04-29T14:58:38Z amz3: That's what I thought too, but he is not interested in my work
2018-04-29T14:58:50Z amz3: he says that transactions are not required for the kind of workload he has
2018-04-29T14:59:05Z amz3: he apparantly use tokyo cabinet
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2018-04-29T15:13:02Z amz3: I will him, another email at least to make him aware of foundationdb
2018-04-29T15:13:24Z amz3: I think it's enough important news for myself, than him
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2018-04-29T15:21:19Z amz3 sent a mail to c.l.q
2018-04-29T15:21:21Z amz3 sent a mail to c.l.s
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2018-04-29T15:28:02Z amz3: actually he replied to my mail, I just noticed
2018-04-29T15:29:15Z wasamasa: lol
2018-04-29T15:30:14Z amz3: what I recommed him is to apply their technology to an existing niche and not target search per se
2018-04-29T15:30:58Z wasamasa: like what?
2018-04-29T15:31:31Z amz3: like entreprise knowledge bases, ERP, CRM or legal
2018-04-29T15:31:55Z wasamasa: all of these are buzzwords
2018-04-29T15:32:09Z amz3: yes, but there are paying cusomter behind those words
2018-04-29T15:32:30Z wasamasa: I don't see how that makes any of those a niche
2018-04-29T15:32:56Z wasamasa: many people want a good CRM system
2018-04-29T15:33:54Z amz3: yes that's what I said
2018-04-29T15:40:21Z amz3: I have an idea for them, actually, I can mock sven technology, and create an UI for something that would help them sell their tech
2018-04-29T15:40:48Z amz3: maybe A/B tests the result against an existing search engine
2018-04-29T15:41:27Z amz3: that sound like a very great idea actually
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2018-04-29T21:00:21Z gwatt: foojin: The best way to obtain an identifier for use with datum->syntax is to capture the macro name in the pattern. I think that answers your question.
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2018-04-29T21:06:00Z foojin: gwatt: Yes. I just thought that syntax-case doesn't consider the first item to be a pattern variable (like syntax-rules did in r5rs).
2018-04-29T21:06:05Z foojin: gwatt: It turns out that r6rs allows that.
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2018-04-29T23:54:04Z gwatt: foojin: syntax-rules does ignore the first item in a pattern, but syntax-case does not. You can actually use syntax-case as a general purpose pattern matcher
2018-04-29T23:54:35Z gwatt: rudybot: eval (syntax-case (iota 10) () ((x ...) (apply + #'(x ...))))
2018-04-29T23:54:46Z rudybot: gwatt: your sandbox is ready
2018-04-29T23:54:49Z rudybot: gwatt: error: iota: undefined; <NEWLINE>  cannot reference an identifier before its definition <NEWLINE>   in module: 'program
2018-04-29T23:55:12Z gwatt: rudybot: eval (syntax-case '(1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10) () ((x ...) (apply + #'(x ...))))
2018-04-29T23:55:12Z rudybot: gwatt: error: apply: contract violation <NEWLINE>   expected: list? <NEWLINE>   given: #<syntax:1:60 (1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10)> <NEWLINE>   argument position: 2nd <NEWLINE>   other arguments...: <NEWLINE>    #<procedure:+>
2018-04-29T23:55:33Z gwatt: well, in guile and chez that yields 55
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2018-04-30T00:22:39Z foojin: gwatt: I tried something like that a few days ago. It's somewhat reassuring to know that it's not an implementation quirk.
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2018-04-30T00:25:34Z gwatt: It also works in racket's r6rs mode, but not the "#lang racket" mode, which I think rudybot is written in
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2018-04-30T01:12:04Z jcowan: pjb: #= and ## syntax is not permitted by R7RS in code, only in datums.
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2018-04-30T01:17:06Z jcowan: that way, compilers do not have to defend against infinite loops when processing input
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2018-04-30T06:01:09Z xieyuheng: https://www.ted.com/talks/martin_reeves_how_to_build_a_business_that_lasts_100_years
2018-04-30T06:01:10Z xieyuheng: about how to build resilient and enduring
2018-04-30T06:01:17Z xieyuheng: [to learn from humman immune system]
2018-04-30T06:01:17Z xieyuheng: hope this might be applied to language community ~
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2018-04-30T13:08:01Z donalsd: One month, Chapter 2, section 2.2.3 page 113 with SICP, am I going too slow?
2018-04-30T13:11:40Z gwatt: Go at your own pace
2018-04-30T13:11:55Z gwatt: Unless you're doing it for a class there's not really a "too slow"
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2018-04-30T13:13:59Z donalsd: Uh, I am kind of in a summer vacation project that I set up for myself. Given I have 3 more months of vacation, I think that is slow. I am not really sure. I don't do much other than that these days.
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2018-04-30T13:16:36Z gwatt: As you get more familiar you may speed up with the exercises. And after the three months you can still continue working through it.
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2018-04-30T13:26:59Z foojin: Is it allowed to pass more that n arguments to a continuation which expects only n (and have it receive the first n of them)? For example: (let ((x (values 1 2))) x)
2018-04-30T13:29:37Z ecraven: foojin: no
2018-04-30T13:29:45Z ecraven: CL allows something similar, but Scheme does not
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2018-04-30T13:34:12Z ecraven: I can't actually find a place in r7rs that explicitly forbids this, but I'm sure it does
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2018-04-30T13:37:18Z jcowan: under call/cc, oddly
2018-04-30T13:37:19Z jcowan: Continuations created by the
2018-04-30T13:37:19Z jcowan: call-with-values procedure (including the initialization
2018-04-30T13:37:19Z jcowan: expressions of define-values, let-values, and
2018-04-30T13:37:19Z jcowan: let*-values expressions), take the number of values
2018-04-30T13:37:19Z jcowan: that the consumer expects. The continuations
2018-04-30T13:37:23Z jcowan: of all non-final expressions within a sequence of expressions,
2018-04-30T13:37:25Z jcowan: such as in lambda, case-lambda, begin,
2018-04-30T13:37:27Z jcowan: let, let*, letrec, letrec*, let-values, let*-values,
2018-04-30T13:37:29Z jcowan: let-syntax, letrec-syntax, parameterize, guard,
2018-04-30T13:37:31Z jcowan: case, cond, when, and unless expressions, take an arbitrary
2018-04-30T13:37:33Z ecraven: p. 52 says: "The effect of passing no values or more than one value to continuations that were not created ..."
2018-04-30T13:37:33Z jcowan: number of values because they discard the values
2018-04-30T13:37:35Z jcowan: passed to them in any event. The effect of passing no values
2018-04-30T13:37:37Z jcowan: or more than one value to continuations that were not
2018-04-30T13:37:39Z jcowan: created in one of these ways is unspecified.
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2018-04-30T13:38:31Z ecraven: so '
2018-04-30T13:38:35Z ecraven: "unspecified"
2018-04-30T13:40:17Z foojin: Ah, I see. They seems to have elaborated on that since r5rs, which I derived my conclusions from.
2018-04-30T13:40:39Z foojin: *seem
2018-04-30T13:41:07Z jcowan: "they" = me, btw
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2018-04-30T21:47:13Z jethier: does anyone know if Bigloo's define-expander or define-syntax macros can be made available via eval?
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