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2018-03-01T06:02:27Z ecraven: new run, including a new way of displaying results: https://ecraven.github.io/r7rs-benchmarks/
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2018-03-01T06:30:24Z ecraven: hm.. racket quite clearly shows that the sort ordering on that graph is not ideal yet
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2018-03-01T07:55:17Z ecraven: foof`: is the chibi version exposed to actual chibi scheme? can I access the current version number (or string) from inside chibi?
2018-03-01T07:55:24Z ecraven: short of running chibi-scheme -V ;)
2018-03-01T07:56:28Z mrm: It might be worth changing racket-n to racket-n/r7rs since the performance of #lang r7rs is probably a bit lower than what you'd normally expect from idiomatic racket.
2018-03-01T07:57:16Z ecraven: mrm: ok, I'll think about that
2018-03-01T07:57:33Z ecraven: that's actually easy to change ;)
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2018-03-01T08:56:13Z ayys: I wantt to learn how to write large projects in scheme? could someone recomend a good, well documented project I can learn from?
2018-03-01T08:57:04Z wasamasa: ideally, don't
2018-03-01T08:57:32Z wasamasa: the large ones are most likely of proprietary nature anyways
2018-03-01T08:58:05Z ayys: wasamasa: so people don't generally work on large projects in scheme?
2018-03-01T08:58:12Z ayys: perhaps some other variant on lisp then?
2018-03-01T08:58:34Z wasamasa: it doesn't have the necessary facilities for that
2018-03-01T08:58:54Z ecraven: where does "large" start?
2018-03-01T08:59:10Z tolja: What would those facilities be?
2018-03-01T08:59:32Z ecraven: wasamasa: I'm not sure I agree with you there... most Schemes have at least halfway decent module systems
2018-03-01T08:59:55Z wasamasa: ecraven: I remember a discussion in here about how much the r7rs one sucks for neural networks
2018-03-01T09:00:02Z ayys: ecraven:  well, I would call any project with more than a few modules and tests, and a good community behind it - a large project
2018-03-01T09:00:09Z wasamasa: ecraven: and the person being happier with what C provides
2018-03-01T09:00:29Z ecraven: wasamasa: well, *any* Scheme has more than plain R7RS
2018-03-01T09:00:43Z wasamasa: the vast majority doesn't
2018-03-01T09:00:53Z ecraven: of course, writing large *portable* r7rs programs is an entirely different thing
2018-03-01T09:01:15Z ecraven: wasamasa: in what way? all the major ones have xml, json, networking, things like that
2018-03-01T09:01:28Z wasamasa: ayys: the community part is what disqualifies scheme
2018-03-01T09:01:40Z wasamasa: ayys: look at http://ball.askemos.org/ for instance
2018-03-01T09:01:49Z wasamasa: ayys: it's big and complicated, but community, lol
2018-03-01T09:02:03Z ecraven: wasamasa: again, I'd disagree. some Schemes have very nice and active communities
2018-03-01T09:02:10Z ecraven: some don't, of course, just don't pick one of those
2018-03-01T09:02:13Z wasamasa: ecraven: but do the projects built with it?
2018-03-01T09:02:16Z ayys: wasamasa: well I don't expect a community anything like linux, but a active people who address bugs and answer questions would be nice
2018-03-01T09:02:20Z wasamasa: ecraven: is there something like rails?
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2018-03-01T09:03:00Z wasamasa: ayys: you'll get that for scheme in general
2018-03-01T09:03:52Z wasamasa: ayys: for individual projects, the community size is typically contained in the closed interval of [1 2]
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2018-03-01T09:04:42Z ayys: wasamasa: well, the community size isn't that big of a factor for me. I just want an example of how a project is structured in scheme
2018-03-01T09:06:01Z wasamasa: that will be highly dependent on your toolchain
2018-03-01T09:06:32Z wasamasa: it's not like there's one recommended way of doing it, like in java
2018-03-01T09:07:09Z ecraven: ayys: as an example, I write all my chez modules in ~/chez, then compile everything with the excellent chez-exe (by gwatt) into a single executable. I haven't put most of my modules online, but plan to eventually (when I get around to actually documenting them).
2018-03-01T09:07:41Z ecraven: I have working postgres, sqlite3, ocilib (oracle), mysql, ldap, networking and basic http modules, plus many other half-baked things
2018-03-01T09:08:03Z ecraven: depending on which Scheme you pick, you will have many more and better modules available (guile or chicken seem to have loads, racket too)
2018-03-01T09:09:14Z wasamasa: if you're hell-bent on programming in the large, CL and clojure are better suited for that
2018-03-01T09:09:38Z ecraven: that I unfortunately cannot entirely dispute ;)
2018-03-01T09:09:41Z wasamasa: it's better not to be
2018-03-01T09:09:55Z wasamasa: no successful project started out with "I must be huge and complicated"
2018-03-01T09:10:06Z wasamasa: that's how they ended up after attracting many contributors
2018-03-01T09:10:55Z ecraven: wasamasa: which features make CL better than Scheme, just out of interest? it has way more well-tested libraries, but language feature wise?
2018-03-01T09:11:22Z wasamasa: ecraven: it's just the observation that there's far more big CL projects
2018-03-01T09:11:40Z ecraven: wasamasa: ok. that might be related to the fact that Scheme is so fractured
2018-03-01T09:11:42Z wasamasa: ecraven: as for language features, I imagine standardized introspection helps a lot
2018-03-01T09:11:52Z ecraven: wasamasa: that is a very good point
2018-03-01T09:11:59Z wasamasa: ecraven: and they have had more commercial vendors
2018-03-01T09:12:14Z ecraven: I was talking to jcowan about introspection a few weeks ago, would be nice to at least have common *interfaces*, even if there is no portable implementation
2018-03-01T09:12:42Z wasamasa: I'm not sure about the rest because I never actually used it and just know that clojure nicked the parts making sense
2018-03-01T09:13:34Z wasamasa: stuff like package namespaces (be it in symbols or keywords) is useful, so is multiple dispatch for OOP
2018-03-01T09:13:48Z wasamasa: and of course having a huge stdlib
2018-03-01T09:14:00Z wasamasa: it's not fun if even srfi-1 isn't available everywhere
2018-03-01T09:14:20Z ecraven: wasamasa: are scheme modules not namespaces enough?
2018-03-01T09:14:36Z wasamasa: they don't affect symbols
2018-03-01T09:14:37Z ecraven: I agree about standardized multiple dispatch
2018-03-01T09:15:12Z ecraven: I'm not sure I see how namespaced symbols would help?
2018-03-01T09:15:15Z wasamasa: the implementations I've seen in scheme are far more static than in clojure (and by extension, probably CL as well)
2018-03-01T09:15:30Z ecraven: wasamasa: mit is the most "world"-like implementation I have seen
2018-03-01T09:15:44Z ecraven: it has proper introspection (but unfortunately no real and simple module system)
2018-03-01T09:15:45Z wasamasa: clojure allows things like blowing out everything in the current namespace and recreating it
2018-03-01T09:16:20Z wasamasa: this is useful for ensuring your development environment is clean
2018-03-01T09:16:21Z ecraven: yea, most schemes are "to redefine things, exit and start again".. redefining classes like in CLOS is not supported by anything I've ever seen in any Scheme
2018-03-01T09:16:22Z ecraven: :-/
2018-03-01T09:16:28Z wasamasa: in scheme I just restart the repl
2018-03-01T09:16:41Z wasamasa: I can't imagine that to work when developing in the large
2018-03-01T09:16:51Z ecraven: I would love to have that kind of features :-/
2018-03-01T09:17:00Z ecraven: but then, I just really want a Scheme Machine :P
2018-03-01T09:18:50Z wasamasa: I dunno about mit-scheme, I recall seeing a websockets thing done with it and found it curious to find a homemade implementation of a json parser in the sources
2018-03-01T09:20:42Z wasamasa: there's a few language-level decisions I dislike about scheme, such as macrology being enough of a pain that I never learned it and continuations/dynamic-wind as replacement for condition-case/unwind-protect
2018-03-01T09:21:47Z wasamasa: exception handling like in clojure is plenty for me, I don't want to think about continuations screwing it up
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2018-03-01T09:23:21Z wasamasa: so, all of these somehow lead to me doing small projects in scheme, sometimes even libraries (because nobody before me made the one I need for my chosen scheme)
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2018-03-01T09:29:25Z wasamasa: the biggest thing I did was implementing MAL in portable R7RS and that revealed a few dozen bugs in two implementations
2018-03-01T09:29:43Z wasamasa: it also revealed a bunch to be unusable
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2018-03-01T09:32:08Z wasamasa: hm, I think I've scared ayys away
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2018-03-01T09:38:32Z ecraven: wasamasa: yea, when writing my swank I've seen quite a few incompatibilities and problems :-/
2018-03-01T09:38:43Z manumanumanu: wasamasa: I think the whole multi-shot-continuation thing is a mistake. Has anyone ever used multi-shot continuations for something good? It just makes things very complicated, and that gives us dynamic-wind instead of unwind-protect
2018-03-01T09:38:50Z wasamasa: ok, just a little bit more than a dozen
2018-03-01T09:39:46Z manumanumanu: The only time I use multi-shot continuations is when I want to confuse java programmers
2018-03-01T09:39:50Z wasamasa: lol
2018-03-01T09:40:39Z ecraven: manumanumanu: the problem is, *if* you need them, you really need them and not something else
2018-03-01T09:40:59Z ecraven: though I don't think I've ever used multi-shot, only single-shot
2018-03-01T09:41:02Z manumanumanu: but *when* do you need them?
2018-03-01T09:41:12Z manumanumanu: I have never ever ever seen them in the wild
2018-03-01T09:41:20Z wasamasa: I'm vaguely aware that continuations might be useful if I ever made a debugger
2018-03-01T09:41:54Z wasamasa: or for something more realistic in my own code, backtracking for a parser
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2018-03-01T09:42:47Z ecraven: manumanumanu: continuations? I've used them for a web framework, for example, similar to seaside in smalltalk
2018-03-01T09:42:57Z ecraven: but I haven't needed multi-shot continuations so far, I think
2018-03-01T09:43:12Z ecraven: though they might be useful for backtracking or something like `amb'?
2018-03-01T09:44:09Z manumanumanu: First class continuations are nice, but multi-shot continuations seems like more pain than they're worth
2018-03-01T09:44:27Z ecraven: well, amb is really nice to have, if you need it
2018-03-01T09:44:35Z ecraven: does minikanren use multi-shot continuations?
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2018-03-01T09:51:46Z manumanumanu: ecraven: call/cc seems like a pretty wasteful way to achieve nondeterminism
2018-03-01T09:55:34Z manumanumanu: give me coroutines and early exits and most of my uses for continuations are covered. delimited continuations is an ok way to build those things. call/cc is way to expensive and clunky.
2018-03-01T09:56:16Z ecraven: manumanumanu: yea, delimited continuations seem like the better abstraction. I'm not sure why undelimited is the "default"
2018-03-01T09:57:53Z manumanumanu: there was a mention of shift/reset or call-with-prompt somewhere in the r7rs large docs. I doubt it will pass, but it made me happy :D
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2018-03-01T10:03:52Z manumanumanu: where call-with-prompt is the nicer primitive.
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2018-03-01T10:27:05Z ecraven: I haven't looked into delimited continuations closely enough :-/
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2018-03-01T11:30:38Z gwatt: ecraven: manumanumanu: check out "engines" as a use for call/cc https://www.scheme.com/tspl4/examples.html#g208
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2018-03-01T12:14:43Z manumanumanu: gwatt: but are they using multi-shot continuations?
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2018-03-01T12:28:05Z gwatt: manumanumanu: They're only used once, but they are used to restart the continuation
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2018-03-01T12:44:35Z ecraven: is picrin know for a very good string implementation?
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2018-03-01T12:46:53Z ecraven: not sure what's going on, but it seems to really be that fast on the string benchmark..
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2018-03-01T12:49:43Z gwatt: Yeah, I saw that
2018-03-01T12:50:21Z ecraven: I was wondering, so I investigated, but it just calls string-append many times, and the resulting string really is of the right length
2018-03-01T12:50:52Z ecraven: femtolisp and rhizome also seem a bit strange
2018-03-01T12:51:00Z gwatt: Maybe it has a rope implementation of strings?
2018-03-01T12:51:26Z ecraven: it might, I haven't found the implementation of string-append in the source yet
2018-03-01T12:52:39Z ecraven: indeed it does
2018-03-01T12:52:41Z gwatt: One thing that bemuses be is petite being faster than chez at string
2018-03-01T12:52:43Z ecraven:   struct rope *s1 = str_ptr(pic, a)->rope, *s2 = str_ptr(pic, b)->rope;
2018-03-01T12:52:54Z vyzo: that's impressive
2018-03-01T12:52:57Z ecraven: very nice, other schemes should use ropes too!
2018-03-01T12:52:58Z vyzo: a scheme with ropes!
2018-03-01T12:53:42Z gwatt: well, it would be interesting to see the string benchmark expanded to also indexing and comparisons
2018-03-01T12:53:53Z ecraven: more benchmarks!
2018-03-01T12:54:20Z vyzo: someone has to write those :)
2018-03-01T12:54:28Z ecraven: it has a custom implementation of ropes
2018-03-01T12:54:39Z ecraven: vyzo: that is probably the main obstactle ;)
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2018-03-01T12:55:08Z ecraven: the existing benchmark is mostly string-append and substring
2018-03-01T12:55:13Z ecraven: no string-ref or string-set! at all
2018-03-01T12:56:09Z gwatt: Hmm, will string-set! trigger a copy in picrin so that only the given string is updated?
2018-03-01T12:56:37Z ecraven:   x = pic_str_sub(pic, str, 0, k);
2018-03-01T12:56:38Z ecraven:   y = pic_str_value(pic, &c, 1);
2018-03-01T12:56:38Z ecraven:   z = pic_str_sub(pic, str, k + 1, len);
2018-03-01T12:56:38Z ecraven:   w = pic_str_cat(pic, x, pic_str_cat(pic, y, z));
2018-03-01T12:56:49Z ecraven: lib/string.c in the picrin sources
2018-03-01T12:57:41Z ecraven: rhizome is fast on slatex.. that seems strange
2018-03-01T12:57:53Z vyzo: does it produce the right result?
2018-03-01T12:58:07Z ecraven: it should, but checking again
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2018-03-01T13:00:42Z ecraven: rhizome takes 0.006 for that slatex test, that is probably a faulty result
2018-03-01T13:02:36Z ecraven: there is no check for correct "output" in the slatex test
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2018-03-01T13:06:51Z ecraven: I'd also love to have a floating-point test, to see whether chez really is slow there
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2018-03-01T13:07:19Z gwatt: do you have an exact non-integer test?
2018-03-01T13:07:23Z ecraven: hm.. actually fib vs fibfp and sum vs. sumfp already show that
2018-03-01T13:07:44Z ecraven: gwatt: probably not ;) those are the tests from larceny, I am not yet familiar with all the tests themselves
2018-03-01T13:09:18Z ecraven: hm.. I should modify the benchmarks so that they actually check for correct "output", tail (the one where femtolisp is fastest) again ignores output
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2018-03-01T13:20:56Z gwatt: hmm, slatex is quite involved
2018-03-01T13:21:31Z ecraven: yea, it is the actual slatex from a few versions ago, I think
2018-03-01T13:25:45Z vyzo: so a note on two benchmarks where gerbil/gambit lags significantly from chez in the benchmarks
2018-03-01T13:25:47Z vyzo: cat and wc
2018-03-01T13:25:57Z vyzo: these use read-char which is a bit slow, due to the lock
2018-03-01T13:26:16Z vyzo: in gerbil for network programming there are abstractions for programming directly with the socket device
2018-03-01T13:26:21Z vyzo: so that this lock etc is avoided
2018-03-01T13:26:34Z vyzo: in short, network i/o is a lot faster with idiomatic gerbil :)
2018-03-01T13:26:43Z vyzo: too bad this is r7rs, we can't use our voodoo dolls!
2018-03-01T13:27:22Z vyzo: and of course the same can be applied to files too
2018-03-01T13:27:32Z vyzo: you just have to open the files with ffi instead of using the scheme primitives
2018-03-01T13:27:57Z gwatt: but then you're not really testing the scheme are you? you're testing C
2018-03-01T13:28:03Z vyzo: no, it's pure scheme
2018-03-01T13:28:08Z vyzo: you only open the device in ffi
2018-03-01T13:28:10Z vyzo: with open
2018-03-01T13:28:13Z vyzo: the rest is pure scheme
2018-03-01T13:28:14Z gwatt: oh, ok
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2018-03-01T13:33:43Z ecraven: vyzo: yea, but unfortunately this is the only way to keep the sources the same. otherwise, we'd have to write custom benchmark source code for each scheme
2018-03-01T13:33:58Z ecraven: I should add a brightly blinking paragraph at the top with caveats
2018-03-01T13:33:59Z gwatt: eh, could abuse the setup wrappers
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2018-03-01T13:47:51Z vyzo: yeah i know
2018-03-01T13:47:54Z vyzo: i am not complaining
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2018-03-01T13:54:25Z foof`: ecraven: actually, no... I could add it easily enough, maybe to (chibi ast)
2018-03-01T13:54:34Z ecraven: foof`: that would be perfect ;)
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2018-03-01T14:30:02Z mejja: ecraven, excellent example of how to present a data set!
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2018-03-01T14:45:33Z elly: I have been using chibi as my main scheme lately and quite liking it
2018-03-01T14:45:45Z elly: but I wish the stack traces for errors were more descriptive
2018-03-01T14:45:50Z elly: or could be made more descriptive
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2018-03-01T15:11:07Z justinethier: ecraven: the new benchmarks are great, thanks!
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2018-03-01T15:31:59Z ecraven: justinethier: very welcome, still far from where I want to go visualisation-wise
2018-03-01T15:32:19Z ecraven: elly: I share that wish ;) for every Scheme
2018-03-01T15:32:38Z ecraven: mejja: The format for the comparison was suggested by marc feeley, I just implemented it
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2018-03-01T17:45:46Z jcowan: "There is a myth that Lisp (and Prolog) are "special-purpose" languages, while
2018-03-01T17:45:46Z jcowan: languages like Pascal and C are "general purpose." Actually, just the reverse is
2018-03-01T17:45:46Z jcowan: true. Pascal and C are special-purpose languages for manipulating the registers and
2018-03-01T17:45:46Z jcowan: memory of a von Neumann-style computer." --Peter Norvig, PAIP
2018-03-01T17:45:59Z jcowan: now available at https://github.com/norvig/paip-lisp
2018-03-01T17:53:25Z Zipheir: most true
2018-03-01T17:53:35Z mr is now known as m
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2018-03-01T17:54:06Z Guest62754 is now known as mrm
2018-03-01T17:57:24Z jcowan: here's my current idea for supporting multilingual programming in Scheme
2018-03-01T17:58:04Z mrm: Well, we call anything leaving the tiny slice of the universe that contains the earth a 'space _', despite the fact that it'd probably be more fair to just tack 'Earth _' onto all the other stuff.
2018-03-01T17:58:22Z jcowan: #!lang (random module) is a signal that the compiler or interpreter should load (random module) and invoke a procedure 'read-all' in that module, passing it the port it is reading from
2018-03-01T17:58:47Z jcowan: this procedure then returns a list of Scheme forms representing a translation from random-module language into Scheme
2018-03-01T17:59:04Z jcowan: it can be as complicated as you like
2018-03-01T17:59:24Z jcowan: parse Cobol input, translate it into Scheme, and away we go
2018-03-01T18:00:19Z mrm: Any particular reason not to just do #lang module?
2018-03-01T18:00:58Z ski: i'd s/Scheme/SExp/
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2018-03-01T18:01:38Z vyzo: racket and gerbil already use #lang for this
2018-03-01T18:01:46Z vyzo: you might want to stick with it :)
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2018-03-01T18:04:18Z jcowan: but incompatibly so
2018-03-01T18:04:30Z jcowan: that's why we changed from library to define-library
2018-03-01T18:04:42Z jcowan: racket doesn't care about r7rs
2018-03-01T18:04:56Z jcowan: how does the gerbil implementation work?
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2018-03-01T18:05:26Z jcowan: ski: The idea is that the compiler/interpreter shouldn't have to know that the input is not Scheme
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2018-03-01T18:06:06Z vyzo: well, upon encounter of #lang at the beginning of file
2018-03-01T18:06:14Z vyzo: it imports the module specified right after
2018-03-01T18:06:23Z vyzo: and uses it as prelude
2018-03-01T18:06:33Z vyzo: if it defines a read-module-body function for syntax
2018-03-01T18:06:48Z vyzo: than it uses to read the module body itself into
2018-03-01T18:06:52Z vyzo: into sexp
2018-03-01T18:07:42Z vyzo: and then it expands
2018-03-01T18:08:12Z vyzo: so basically you read in sexp and define your macros to expand it
2018-03-01T18:08:12Z jcowan: so the other identifiers defined in the module are available in the compiler's namespace?
2018-03-01T18:08:27Z vyzo: it depends on what the prelude imports or exports
2018-03-01T18:08:34Z vyzo: but in general yes, you can have arbitrary stuff available
2018-03-01T18:08:56Z jcowan: how do you prevent that from colliding with the compiler's own identifiers?
2018-03-01T18:10:00Z vyzo: you use the module system to control identifier visibility
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2018-03-01T18:10:17Z vyzo: so you import the prelude dynamically
2018-03-01T18:10:23Z ski: jcowan : well, i was getting at the difference between converting to executable Scheme definitions, commands, expressions, and just converting to some SExp forms, which then some other Scheme prodecure would be responsible for interpreting
2018-03-01T18:10:23Z vyzo: no bindings in current namespace or anything
2018-03-01T18:10:31Z vyzo: and you look to see whether it defines read-module-body
2018-03-01T18:10:35Z vyzo: then it reads, goes to sexp
2018-03-01T18:10:44Z vyzo: then with the initial bindings provided by the prelude, you expand
2018-03-01T18:11:00Z vyzo: and this includes a full custom module expander with %%begin-module too
2018-03-01T18:11:01Z ski: ("interpreting" in a general sense. not necessarily in the sense of running a program)
2018-03-01T18:12:20Z vyzo: also, in case this is not obvious
2018-03-01T18:12:33Z vyzo: there is the full meta-syntactic tower available, with module phasing
2018-03-01T18:12:36Z jcowan: ski: that procedure would have to know if it was running in compiler or interpreter context, or just reading data (not clear to me if #lang should be respected in data files)
2018-03-01T18:12:50Z vyzo: that means you can import module for certain phases etc
2018-03-01T18:13:03Z jcowan: what style of phasing?  implicit, explicit, or Racket hyper-explicit?
2018-03-01T18:13:19Z mrm: What do you mean by hyper explicit?
2018-03-01T18:13:33Z vyzo: it's racket style
2018-03-01T18:13:49Z vyzo: you import with (phi: delta import-spec ...)
2018-03-01T18:13:51Z ski: jcowan : i just don't want to presuppose that the stuff following `#!lang blah' is, or corresponds to, executable code. even if it is, we might also want to allow non-standard interpretations
2018-03-01T18:13:55Z vyzo: to specify what pahse you are importing in
2018-03-01T18:14:13Z vyzo: and then the import set (which itself may include bindings at multiple phases) gets delta translated
2018-03-01T18:14:20Z vyzo: negative phase imports are also supported
2018-03-01T18:14:34Z ski: (and i'm not talking about "interpretation" as in walking over some code-structure at run-time, which is usually contrasted with "compilation")
2018-03-01T18:14:39Z jcowan: Racket allows an identifier to have different definitions in different phases: R6RS only allows an identifier to be undefined or defined in a given phase
2018-03-01T18:14:52Z vyzo: gerbil allows diff definitions at each phase too
2018-03-01T18:14:57Z jcowan: eek
2018-03-01T18:15:20Z mrm: Yea, I don't really understand why that would bother someone.
2018-03-01T18:15:32Z jcowan: why which would bother someone?
2018-03-01T18:15:50Z vyzo: racket/gerbil's behaviour is a superset of what r6rs specified
2018-03-01T18:15:55Z vyzo: or a lax interpretation if you like
2018-03-01T18:16:00Z vyzo: r6rs was strict in that regard
2018-03-01T18:16:34Z vyzo: jcowan: https://github.com/vyzo/gerbil/blob/master/src/gerbil/expander/module.ss#L265
2018-03-01T18:16:39Z vyzo: that's the implementation of the #lang reader
2018-03-01T18:16:52Z mrm: jcowan: Did I misinterpret what the "eek" was in response to?
2018-03-01T18:17:03Z vyzo: note that gerbil can use arbitrary prelude modules without using lang if they use sexp syntax
2018-03-01T18:17:15Z vyzo: just say prelude: your-base-lang at the top of the module and its done
2018-03-01T18:17:21Z vyzo: or specify it in your gerbil.pkg
2018-03-01T18:17:50Z jcowan: So you could implement CL that way, modulo lexical syntax for bit arrays and structures etc?
2018-03-01T18:18:36Z mrm: And some messy munging for the function namespace, but yea.
2018-03-01T18:18:37Z jcowan: I think R6RS explicit is a pointless compromise that stands on both feet in midair
2018-03-01T18:18:59Z amz3: :)
2018-03-01T18:19:16Z jcowan: But I think Racket-style is very easy to get wrong, and very demanding of the user to get right
2018-03-01T18:20:00Z jcowan: I find Abdulaziz's paper <https://www.cs.indiana.edu/~dyb/pubs/implicit-phasing.pdf> very convincing about the superiority of implicit phasing
2018-03-01T18:20:29Z jcowan: I think the only still active Scheme that demands explicit phasing is Larceny, and Will says that is going away
2018-03-01T18:20:37Z jcowan: s/active/actively developed
2018-03-01T18:21:20Z jcowan: then again, I myself am not a fan of non-syntax-rules macros, and if you stick to syntax-rules, you need no phasing
2018-03-01T18:22:35Z vyzo: there are certain things you just can't do without procedural macros
2018-03-01T18:22:59Z vyzo: and once the module system gets involved, then you need a mechanism to manage identifier visibility
2018-03-01T18:23:58Z vyzo: implicit phasing only works because of the requirement for identifiers to have the same binding in all phases
2018-03-01T18:24:01Z vyzo: and that's vexing
2018-03-01T18:24:19Z vyzo: the programmer should be allowed to specify the exact details of the langauge at each phase
2018-03-01T18:24:24Z ecraven: as an example, I want to convert ((x <number>) y (z <number>) . rest) into ((x y z . rest) (<number> <object> <number>)), I don't quite understand yet how I can do that with syntax-rules :-/
2018-03-01T18:24:25Z vyzo: and most important what is evaluated when
2018-03-01T18:25:02Z vyzo: so you can have a different language at compile time than the language at runtime
2018-03-01T18:25:25Z jcowan: Oh, I agree with all these points as facts, I just think they are stylistically bad
2018-03-01T18:25:46Z jcowan: there is no way (pace Al* Petrofsky) to implement aif without low-level macros, but aif *sucks*.  IMAO.
2018-03-01T18:26:00Z vyzo: heh
2018-03-01T18:26:10Z vyzo: can't argue with that
2018-03-01T18:26:13Z mrm: aif?
2018-03-01T18:26:21Z mrm: Oh.
2018-03-01T18:26:27Z mrm: nvm.
2018-03-01T18:26:28Z amz3: let if marcro
2018-03-01T18:26:39Z mrm: Yea, "anaphoric if", got it.
2018-03-01T18:26:40Z jcowan: a version of if in which the identifier 'it' is bound to the result of the conditional part and made available in the then and else clauses
2018-03-01T18:26:51Z jcowan: it obvs does not nest at all
2018-03-01T18:27:12Z elly: it does make for cute examples though
2018-03-01T18:27:19Z vyzo: therein lies the way to perl
2018-03-01T18:27:45Z ski: (it would be interesting if different phases could be in different languages. in such a context i think implicit phasing doesn't make sense)
2018-03-01T18:28:02Z vyzo: that's exactly the point i was making :)
2018-03-01T18:28:12Z mrm: Not neccesarily. With syntax parameters it's fairly easy. I think even with something like fluid-let-syntax it's not too bad.
2018-03-01T18:28:14Z ski: yea, i was a bit scroll-backed :)
2018-03-01T18:28:25Z ecraven: jcowan: I still find things like (define-structure point x y) very helpful sometimes
2018-03-01T18:28:43Z elly: ecraven: where define-structure produces bindings not named in the macro invocation?
2018-03-01T18:28:44Z jcowan: I might if I were defining a gazillion structures
2018-03-01T18:28:48Z jcowan: elly: just so
2018-03-01T18:28:49Z elly: like point-x and point-set-x! and so on?
2018-03-01T18:28:51Z elly: ahh
2018-03-01T18:29:09Z ecraven: it should define at least make-point, point? point-x and point-y (and possibly set-point-x! and set-point-y!)
2018-03-01T18:29:17Z ski: perhaps it should be called "pronounic if", instead ..
2018-03-01T18:29:32Z jcowan: but with just 2-3 at most, I have no trouble with define-record-type except remembering the order of arguments
2018-03-01T18:29:54Z ski: (since one can imagine notions of anaphora in programming languages that don't involve unhygienic use of pronoun identifiers)
2018-03-01T18:30:29Z jcowan: ski: I'd be okay with (pif (assoc x alist) it (print it) (print "Nope"))
2018-03-01T18:30:37Z ski nods
2018-03-01T18:30:48Z jcowan: which syntax-rules can do
2018-03-01T18:30:51Z ecraven: jcowan: I have variations like (define-storable-structure user (first-name string? "") ..), which would get even more verbose if I needed to mention every accessor too
2018-03-01T18:30:54Z ski . o O ( `and-let*' )
2018-03-01T18:31:12Z jcowan: in general, bound names that come out of thin air give me the creeps
2018-03-01T18:31:14Z ecraven: I'm just saying, I think there are legitimate reasons for unhygienic macros (even if aif is maybe not one of those)
2018-03-01T18:32:09Z jcowan: they remind me of Stroustrup on C++, how it prevents you most of the time from shooting yourself in the foot, but when you do, you blow your whole leg off
2018-03-01T18:32:14Z jcowan: I do like syntax-parameters
2018-03-01T18:32:31Z ecraven: I like them too ;) they seem like a nice solution to their problem
2018-03-01T18:32:35Z jcowan: also, my job as R7RS-large conductor would be made easier if there were no standardized macro styles
2018-03-01T18:32:51Z jcowan: as I expect there will either be a flamewar or else total indifference, neither of which serves my needs
2018-03-01T18:34:14Z ecraven: well, syntax-rules is already there. syntax-parameters can probably be added? not sure whether anyone actively dislike syntax-case?
2018-03-01T18:34:19Z amz3: I know no use of unhygienic macros that is legitimate, that said, 'define-macro' is help to get started with making macros
2018-03-01T18:34:23Z elly: I've used the r7rs style of records a bit, where you do have to explicitly name everything you want to bind, and they're... not that bad
2018-03-01T18:34:32Z vyzo: syntax-parameters lose a lot of power without syntax-parameter-value
2018-03-01T18:34:42Z elly: in that I haven't run into anything I needed to do that I couldn't do with them
2018-03-01T18:34:43Z mrm: Anyhow, you might want to look at racket's docs for how their reader/lang system works. It's not as complicated as you probably suspect.
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2018-03-01T18:36:08Z jcowan: ecraven: foof is amply on record as disliking syntax-case, which is why chibi implements syntactic closures
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2018-03-01T18:36:45Z jcowan: Clinger is on record (I think, maybe he just told me) as disliking syntactic closures, which is why Larceny implements explicit renaming and (for R6RS compatibility) syntax-case.
2018-03-01T18:36:47Z ecraven: I like syntactic closures too ;) and implicit renaming..
2018-03-01T18:37:06Z jcowan: I like implicit renaming but only two Schemes have it, which isn't much of a base for standardization
2018-03-01T18:37:13Z ecraven: hm.. so in the end, everyone likes A, but dislikes B (for all possible combinations)..
2018-03-01T18:37:27Z ecraven: jcowan: well, if it is simple enough to implement, it might be used by more?
2018-03-01T18:38:15Z ecraven: also, is there a way to have syntax-rules expand a name in the environment of the macro definition? for things like a custom define-method, I'd like it to expand to add-method! in the macro definition environment (so I don't have to export the function, only the macro)
2018-03-01T18:39:03Z jcowan: foof dislikes it because the implementation in Chicken is too slow, inherently so
2018-03-01T18:39:46Z ecraven: there was something about the algorithm being cuboid or something, right?
2018-03-01T18:39:48Z elly: what is implicit renaming?
2018-03-01T18:40:07Z jcowan: like explicit renaming, except that everything is renamed *except* what you wrap
2018-03-01T18:40:11Z vyzo: btw, now that we discussed #lang i'll make it use a default sexp reader when there is no read-module-body exported :)
2018-03-01T18:40:23Z elly: jcowan: ahh
2018-03-01T18:40:24Z vyzo: so that you can use #lang as a variant of prelude:
2018-03-01T18:40:29Z jcowan: ah
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2018-03-01T18:41:10Z jcowan: ecraven: I think it is only O(n*2), but that's a lot if you have big macro bodies that have to be expanded recursively
2018-03-01T18:42:23Z jcowan: yes, quadratic in the size of the macro
2018-03-01T18:44:06Z jcowan: but it is a lot less cluttered and much easier to read than e-r
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2018-03-01T18:44:14Z jcowan: ~ sigh ~
2018-03-01T18:45:28Z jcowan: ecraven: we actually discussed this a year ago: see <https://ccl.clozure.com/irc-logs/scheme/scheme-2017-01.txt> and search for "implicit renaming" on the page
2018-03-01T18:47:49Z elly: in general I have been really liking r7rs in regular use
2018-03-01T18:47:56Z elly: once I got to know the handful of SRFIs I often need
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2018-03-01T18:48:33Z ecraven: elly: me too ;)
2018-03-01T18:48:56Z ecraven: there's some obvious functions missing, like with-input-from-string, I'm hoping for r7rs-large there
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2018-03-01T18:50:10Z elly: ecraven: you can implement that with parameterize and open-input-string though, right?
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2018-03-01T18:50:43Z ecraven: elly: of course, but that's not the point.. I can implement most of r7rs with a small part of r7rs, nonetheless it would be nice to have a few more functions available *without* having to define them myself
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2018-03-01T18:50:46Z ecraven: also, lots of string functions
2018-03-01T18:50:52Z ecraven: even more than srfi-13 has
2018-03-01T18:51:08Z elly: ahh, okay
2018-03-01T18:51:19Z elly: yeah, I had to write some of my own string functions which was a bit surprising
2018-03-01T18:53:02Z jcowan: ecraven: The theory of not having with-input-from-string is to use with-input-from-port instead
2018-03-01T18:53:16Z jcowan: that's why we didn't provide a full set of with-*-from-* functions
2018-03-01T18:53:31Z jcowan: s;from;from/to
2018-03-01T18:53:33Z ecraven: jcowan: which makes me type more ;) I don't like typing
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2018-03-01T18:53:44Z ecraven: ah, but there are more than one, so it seems a bit inconsistent to me
2018-03-01T18:53:49Z jcowan: so define a one-liner
2018-03-01T18:54:08Z ecraven: jcowan: indeed, but some schemes already have that function, some even complain if I redefine it...
2018-03-01T18:54:09Z jcowan: it is inconsistent, but remember we had to maintain backward compat with IEEE
2018-03-01T18:54:36Z ecraven: aye
2018-03-01T18:54:53Z jcowan: the .NET standard libraries went from a mere 13,000 APIs to over 32,000
2018-03-01T18:54:59Z jcowan: that is in-saaaaane
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2018-03-01T18:57:41Z elly: foof`: I don't really understand the documentation at <http://synthcode.com/scheme/chibi/lib/chibi/show.html> btw - an example might be useful there
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2018-03-01T19:10:12Z jcowan: elly: can I assist?
2018-03-01T19:10:25Z ecraven: elly: what do you want to achieve?
2018-03-01T19:10:50Z elly: nothing specifically! I was just reading the docs and did not understand them
2018-03-01T19:11:27Z jcowan: where do you lose the plot, then?
2018-03-01T19:12:23Z elly: jcowan: right at "Formatters" - I follow the interface and can understand e.g. (show #t "hmm: " x) or similar, but I don't understand how the formatter things are connected to the rest
2018-03-01T19:13:08Z jcowan: basically you just pass them as arguments to show when you want to output something in a specialized way
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2018-03-01T19:14:09Z jcowan: srfi 159 isn't quite compatible with (chibi show), but it is conceptually the next generation of it
2018-03-01T19:15:22Z elly: aha!
2018-03-01T19:15:26Z elly: the SRFI 159 examples make it clear
2018-03-01T19:15:27Z elly: thank you
2018-03-01T19:16:35Z elly: I was missing that the formatter calls are passed as arguments to show
2018-03-01T19:16:54Z elly: a la (show #f "hmm: " (padded/left 10 1))
2018-03-01T19:17:51Z jcowan: actually, if you want "hmm:" padded left, it's (padded 10 "hmm:")
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2018-03-01T19:18:18Z elly: yeah, I wanted to pad the 1
2018-03-01T19:18:24Z jcowan: oh, right
2018-03-01T19:18:27Z jcowan: sorry
2018-03-01T19:18:32Z elly: no worries
2018-03-01T19:18:42Z elly: alright, airplane time for me
2018-03-01T19:20:32Z jcowan: the example under pad-char in SRFI 159 is awesome
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2018-03-01T19:32:04Z gwatt: Always some room for Tolkien
2018-03-01T19:32:32Z ecraven: jcowan: concerning implicitly bound names, in the context of a CLOS-like system, would you prefer (define-method (make next-method (class <class>)) ...) to (define-method (make (class <class>)) ...) ? even if next-method is probably not used quite often?
2018-03-01T19:32:49Z ecraven: (also, syntax-parameters would solve this, right? just globally define next-method, and then bind it?
2018-03-01T19:32:52Z ecraven: )
2018-03-01T19:32:59Z jcowan: it would
2018-03-01T19:33:11Z ecraven: now I want syntax-parameters in chez :-/
2018-03-01T19:33:13Z jcowan: I have a more radical view on object systems, however
2018-03-01T19:33:28Z jcowan: yes, I intend to propose them for standardization in the Yellow Edition
2018-03-01T19:33:35Z jcowan: now that there is a SRFI
2018-03-01T19:34:05Z ecraven: is there a way to match an improper list in syntax-rules?
2018-03-01T19:34:20Z ecraven: (foo . bar) will just match any pair (even ones in lists)
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2018-03-01T19:37:00Z jcowan: I don't think so
2018-03-01T19:37:25Z ecraven: if I match (x y ...) first, then (x . y), the first one should match all proper lists, right? am I thinking incorrectly here?
2018-03-01T19:37:29Z jcowan: but I think using improper lists in syntax (other than lambda lists) is rather a hack
2018-03-01T19:37:38Z ecraven: this is a lambda list :-/
2018-03-01T19:38:02Z ecraven: I want to untangle  (define-method (make (x <object>) y (z <number>) . rest)) into names and types
2018-03-01T19:38:10Z jcowan: all non-empty proper lists, you still have to handle that case
2018-03-01T19:38:20Z vyzo: so just to give a reference point here
2018-03-01T19:38:27Z vyzo: gerbil defines a local syntax macro @next-method
2018-03-01T19:38:30Z vyzo: introduces that identifier
2018-03-01T19:38:41Z vyzo: and i really like not having to write @next-method by hand :)
2018-03-01T19:38:55Z vyzo: and yeah, syntax-parameters rock
2018-03-01T19:38:57Z jcowan 's radical view on object systems:  AXE AND FIRE!
2018-03-01T19:39:09Z jcowan: at least for r7rs-large purposes
2018-03-01T19:39:26Z ecraven: jcowan: I'm still a bit torn, but I haven't been able to come up with a nice functional (i.e. immutable) CLOS-like object system
2018-03-01T19:39:31Z ecraven: probably because that is a paradoxon
2018-03-01T19:39:49Z jcowan: well, what features do you want to keep?
2018-03-01T19:39:55Z ecraven: even define-generic seems too much mutation.. depending on which methods are defined, everything is different
2018-03-01T19:40:00Z jcowan: as I said the other day, predicate-based generic functions are IMO the most important thing
2018-03-01T19:40:23Z jcowan: extended with a (mutable) database of subsumption relationships between predicates
2018-03-01T19:40:34Z ecraven: hm.. I actually implemented that last time we spoke about it
2018-03-01T19:40:35Z jcowan: the only mutation you need there is extension
2018-03-01T19:40:56Z ecraven: (define-generic-function (test a)
2018-03-01T19:40:56Z ecraven:   (predicate-order integer? rational? real? number? anything?))
2018-03-01T19:41:00Z jcowan: it's not like the subsumption relationship changes over time, it's just that you need to add new predicates to it occasionally
2018-03-01T19:41:19Z jcowan: no, I am talking about (subsume! number? real?)
2018-03-01T19:41:29Z jcowan: (of course that one would be hard-coded into the system)
2018-03-01T19:41:42Z ecraven: yea, I put the relationships with the generic functions, not ideal
2018-03-01T19:41:52Z ecraven: though they might be different in the context of different GFs
2018-03-01T19:42:00Z jcowan: How so?
2018-03-01T19:42:16Z ecraven: maybe for a given GF, number? does *not* subsume real?
2018-03-01T19:42:31Z ecraven: but then, you don't have that choice in class-based systems either
2018-03-01T19:42:37Z ecraven: so it's probably not necessary at al
2018-03-01T19:43:46Z jcowan: if for all x, (real? x) implies (number? x), then number? subsumes real?
2018-03-01T19:44:03Z jcowan: that's just a fact about the definitions of the predicates
2018-03-01T19:44:30Z ecraven: I can't come up with a good counter-example
2018-03-01T19:44:37Z jcowan: Some predicates are annoying in this case, because they are not defined on arbitrary objects
2018-03-01T19:44:46Z jcowan: (even? #t) is an error rather than #f
2018-03-01T19:46:36Z ski: (GF ?)
2018-03-01T19:47:01Z gwatt: generic functions
2018-03-01T19:47:22Z ski was thinking "generating function", for some reason, didn't compute
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2018-03-01T19:51:43Z jcowan: there are 40 predicates of the relevant type in r7rs-small, if I have not miscounted
2018-03-01T19:51:54Z jcowan: (pure functional, one argument)
2018-03-01T19:52:40Z vyzo: so the obvious problem with predicate based dispatch is performance
2018-03-01T19:52:44Z jcowan: should loading the gf package redefine even? as (and (number? x) (integer? x) (even? x)) or something like that?
2018-03-01T19:52:55Z jcowan: vyzo: Depends on the performance of the predicate
2018-03-01T19:53:03Z vyzo: it's the dispatch that gets killed
2018-03-01T19:53:15Z vyzo: the initial implementation of generics in gerbil used predicate dispatch
2018-03-01T19:53:28Z vyzo: and i rewrote it to use type-based dispatch with a polymorphic cache for v0.12
2018-03-01T19:53:32Z vyzo: it's an order of magnitude faster
2018-03-01T19:54:20Z ecraven: well, for the cases where it's fast enough, it might just suffice?
2018-03-01T19:54:24Z vyzo: the issue is that with predicate dispatch you have O(N) on the size of the generic
2018-03-01T19:54:30Z vyzo: for small generics it's ok
2018-03-01T19:54:37Z vyzo: but add more than a couple of signatures and ugh
2018-03-01T19:54:52Z ecraven: size as in methods?
2018-03-01T19:55:02Z vyzo: yeah, how many methods you have in the generic
2018-03-01T19:55:17Z jcowan: looks to me like PIC should be just as applicable to predicate dispatch as type dispatch, esp. if the predicate is known and can be inlined
2018-03-01T19:55:50Z vyzo: uhm, if you know how to write such a cache i would love to hear about it :)
2018-03-01T19:57:44Z jcowan: Per WP:  "The canonical implementation [2] is a jump table which consists of a preamble that derives the type of the receiver and a series of constant compares and conditional jumps that jump to the code following the preamble in the relevant method for each receiver type."
2018-03-01T19:58:13Z jcowan: so instead of a preamble, you have "<inlined predicate> <conditional jump> <inlined predicate> <conditional jump>"
2018-03-01T19:58:25Z jcowan: it does not run in constant time per method, because some preds are more complicated than others
2018-03-01T19:58:33Z jcowan: but it should still be fast
2018-03-01T19:58:59Z vyzo: it is probably ok, but it has the disadvantage that it requires support from the compiler
2018-03-01T19:59:03Z vyzo: i wouldn't mind doing that
2018-03-01T19:59:12Z vyzo: but the type-based cache doesn't need it at all
2018-03-01T19:59:18Z jcowan: if the pred is too big, fall back to a megamorphic cache or no cache
2018-03-01T19:59:19Z vyzo: just needs type-of which is constant time
2018-03-01T19:59:47Z jcowan: you can inline the predicate just by copying its body
2018-03-01T20:00:07Z vyzo: plausible
2018-03-01T20:00:15Z vyzo: but still too much work in the compiler :)
2018-03-01T20:00:30Z jcowan: I don't see why
2018-03-01T20:00:59Z jcowan: the starting point of the predicate is known at run time, and if you keep its length in bytes somewhere too, then there you are, memcpy is your friend
2018-03-01T20:01:12Z vyzo: there is a problem
2018-03-01T20:01:25Z vyzo: your compiler needs to see all method definitions to inline predicates
2018-03-01T20:01:44Z vyzo: that's not possible with separate compilation and runtime method table modification
2018-03-01T20:02:01Z ecraven: dynamic recompilation
2018-03-01T20:02:03Z ecraven hides :D
2018-03-01T20:02:07Z vyzo: heh
2018-03-01T20:02:17Z jcowan: don't try to inline a predicate that itself a generic function
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2018-03-01T20:02:31Z vyzo: that too :)
2018-03-01T20:02:33Z ecraven: I am actually wondering... wouldn't it work to keep a list of which function uses which other function, and "just" recompile every dependency on redefinitions?
2018-03-01T20:02:34Z jcowan: the compiler only needs to mark which procedures are predicates (in the relevant sense)
2018-03-01T20:02:49Z jcowan: ecraven: no, because of the magic of 'apply'
2018-03-01T20:02:50Z vyzo: it needs to see the method definitions to construct the method table
2018-03-01T20:03:13Z jcowan: I thought you were talking about a PIC constructed at runtime
2018-03-01T20:03:20Z vyzo: yes, I want a PIC at runtime
2018-03-01T20:03:29Z vyzo: that's what I have now :)
2018-03-01T20:03:32Z jcowan: but constructed at compile time, or at run time?
2018-03-01T20:03:37Z vyzo: runtime
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2018-03-01T20:05:34Z jcowan: So do you reduce the known types to small integers in the cache prelude, or test against the type code directly?
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2018-03-01T20:05:51Z vyzo: i construct a hash from the type ids of arguments
2018-03-01T20:06:05Z vyzo: and look up in a perfect ht
2018-03-01T20:06:21Z vyzo: so it's reduction to small integers in a sense
2018-03-01T20:07:20Z vyzo: https://github.com/vyzo/gerbil/blob/master/src/std/generic/dispatch.ss#L342
2018-03-01T20:08:15Z jcowan: so you recreate the perfect hash function every time a new type is seen?
2018-03-01T20:09:04Z vyzo: no
2018-03-01T20:09:12Z vyzo: the ht gets invalidated if you define new methods
2018-03-01T20:09:26Z jcowan: I don't follow this, sorry
2018-03-01T20:09:37Z vyzo: so you start with a list of args
2018-03-01T20:09:45Z vyzo: you get their type-ids
2018-03-01T20:09:57Z vyzo: you hash and compare the list of type-ids
2018-03-01T20:10:05Z vyzo: if you don't match, you make a new cache entry
2018-03-01T20:10:13Z vyzo: that grows the hash table if there is a collision
2018-03-01T20:10:33Z vyzo: so the perfect hash table is dynamically maintained as new type signatures are seen
2018-03-01T20:10:40Z jcowan: so not a perfect hash function, then (which requires knowing all possible keys in advance)
2018-03-01T20:10:40Z vyzo: but a new type doesn't invalidate the hash table
2018-03-01T20:10:49Z vyzo: yeah, no perfect hash funciton
2018-03-01T20:10:57Z vyzo: perfect table in the sense that there is no collision
2018-03-01T20:11:12Z jcowan: gotcha
2018-03-01T20:11:33Z jcowan: is this ht per-call?
2018-03-01T20:11:45Z vyzo: per generic arity
2018-03-01T20:12:24Z vyzo: generic-arity to be more precise
2018-03-01T20:12:30Z vyzo: each generic has a vector of tables
2018-03-01T20:12:37Z vyzo: one created for each arity for which there are defined methods
2018-03-01T20:12:53Z jcowan: Ah, you allow generic functions with the same name but different arities?
2018-03-01T20:13:09Z vyzo: yes, it's the same generic object
2018-03-01T20:13:18Z vyzo: it's a nice feature to have :)
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2018-03-01T20:17:24Z jcowan: yes, reasonable
2018-03-01T20:17:43Z jcowan: so it allows untyped overloading as well, then, the equivalent of case-lambda
2018-03-01T20:18:00Z vyzo: there is case-lambda though
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2018-03-01T20:24:25Z jcowan: sure
2018-03-01T20:24:43Z jcowan: in hindsight I wish we had defined something letrec-ish for case-lambda
2018-03-01T20:25:23Z jcowan: (case-define foo ((x y z) (whatever)) ((x y) (foo x y 0)))
2018-03-01T20:25:46Z jcowan: which would guarantee that foo was not rebound so that the second case can just jump to the first
2018-03-01T20:26:14Z vyzo: meh
2018-03-01T20:26:18Z vyzo: that's a minute detail
2018-03-01T20:26:30Z vyzo: gerbil modules have local scope semantics for mutations
2018-03-01T20:26:37Z vyzo: so if you don't mutate inside the module, it's considered constant
2018-03-01T20:26:54Z vyzo: and case-lambda dispatch is optimized by the gerbil compiler for direct calls
2018-03-01T20:26:54Z jcowan: Mmm.
2018-03-01T20:27:02Z vyzo: so they go directly to the case-lambda arm
2018-03-01T20:27:20Z jcowan: Including direct calls within the case-lambda?
2018-03-01T20:27:27Z vyzo: yes
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2018-03-01T21:12:24Z ecraven: vyzo: how do you deal with overlapping arities? disallow them?
2018-03-01T21:12:30Z ecraven: (x . y) vs. (x y z)
2018-03-01T21:12:44Z vyzo: in generics?
2018-03-01T21:12:49Z ecraven: aye
2018-03-01T21:12:51Z vyzo: no variadic methods
2018-03-01T21:12:57Z vyzo: so disallow :)
2018-03-01T21:13:14Z ecraven: hm.. variadic generics seem useful though :-/
2018-03-01T21:13:27Z vyzo: well, they don't work very well with the cache unfortunately
2018-03-01T21:13:37Z vyzo: so instead of making a mess trying to fit them, i disallowed them
2018-03-01T21:13:44Z vyzo: still thinking for ways to get them back though :)
2018-03-01T21:13:50Z vyzo: because i agree, they can be useful
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2018-03-01T21:19:53Z ecraven: ah, I don't remember how often I've wanted to expand a macro inside a lambda parameter list :-/ still don't quite understand why syntax-rules disallows that
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2018-03-01T21:20:59Z gwatt: probably because lambda is itself a syntactic form and takes precedence as it's the enclosing form
2018-03-01T21:21:28Z ecraven: hm.. that would be a good reason
2018-03-01T21:21:44Z gwatt: You could have syntax-rules expand into a lambda expression
2018-03-01T21:22:27Z ecraven: well, I want to expand into (lambda (next-method . (get-types my-param-list)) ...) (where get-types extracts the types)
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2018-03-01T21:22:56Z ecraven: it's a hygienic macro, but I don't know how to write it in syntax-rules
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2018-03-01T21:23:46Z gwatt: There are some hygienic macros you can't write in syntax-rules.
2018-03-01T21:23:54Z gwatt: at least not easily
2018-03-01T21:25:09Z gwatt: what is "my-params-list" in that context
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2018-03-01T21:26:23Z ecraven: ((number? x) y (string? x))  (for y, get-types should return anything?)
2018-03-01T21:26:35Z ecraven: basically, I want to get a list of names and a list of predicates
2018-03-01T21:26:45Z ecraven: (get-types should actually be called get-predicates)
2018-03-01T21:27:06Z gwatt: oh, I made this!
2018-03-01T21:27:08Z gwatt: (sort of)
2018-03-01T21:27:11Z ecraven: cool
2018-03-01T21:27:15Z ecraven: with syntax-rules?
2018-03-01T21:27:19Z gwatt: and not in syntax-rules
2018-03-01T21:27:21Z ecraven: hehe
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2018-03-01T21:29:27Z gwatt: but it looks like that (fn (a b c) body ...) where "a" "b" and "c" are either literals, or expressions (a :: pred? ...)
2018-03-01T21:29:39Z gwatt: (a = default)
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2018-03-01T21:29:48Z gwatt: (a :: pred? ... = default)
2018-03-01T21:30:32Z gwatt: The code is here, but without examples: https://github.com/gwatt/chez-net/blob/master/fn.ss
2018-03-01T21:33:44Z ecraven: thanks!
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2018-03-01T21:39:23Z ecraven: hm.. I still don't fully understand syntax-case, more reading to do
2018-03-01T21:41:31Z vyzo: syntax-case is pretty cool once you understand it
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2018-03-01T21:43:05Z ecraven: yea, I kind of see that, but still haven't groked it fully
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2018-03-01T21:43:38Z ecraven: which schemes have syntax parameters, apart from rapid?
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2018-03-01T21:43:48Z vyzo: gerbil does :)
2018-03-01T21:44:25Z jcowan: ecraven: Racket
2018-03-01T21:44:34Z jcowan: also Chibi now
2018-03-01T21:44:39Z jcowan: in 0.8
2018-03-01T21:44:55Z jcowan: vyzo: Why does read-module-body have to be defined for syntax, rather than just defined?
2018-03-01T21:45:26Z ecraven: great, thanks
2018-03-01T21:46:05Z vyzo: jcowan: so that you don't have to evaluate the runtime phase of the prelude
2018-03-01T21:46:16Z vyzo: only the syntax
2018-03-01T21:46:47Z vyzo: ... syntax phases
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2018-03-01T21:47:24Z vyzo: i also made it optional a couple of hours ago :)
2018-03-01T21:47:31Z vyzo: so that you get a default sexp reader
2018-03-01T21:47:50Z vyzo: even though it's technically redundant (you get the sexp reader for free with a prelude: declaration
2018-03-01T21:48:01Z vyzo: it's nice to have similar behaviour to racket
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2018-03-01T21:48:28Z jcowan: ah, okay
2018-03-01T21:48:53Z jcowan: I don't see the relevance of implicit phasing to having multiple languages, however
2018-03-01T21:49:12Z jcowan: why would implicit phasing be a Bad Thing in that case?
2018-03-01T21:50:05Z vyzo: it forces you to have the same language in all phases effectively
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2018-03-01T21:51:04Z vyzo: also, another issue with implicit phases
2018-03-01T21:51:15Z vyzo: it relies on identifier usage to make decisions on when to instantiate the module
2018-03-01T21:51:23Z vyzo: what happens if you want to import a module for side-effect?
2018-03-01T21:51:41Z vyzo: say to define some methods for a generic or class?
2018-03-01T21:51:56Z jcowan: by side effect, you exclude the side effect of exporting things?
2018-03-01T21:52:00Z vyzo: how are you going to detect that you need to evaluate this module at runtime?
2018-03-01T21:52:04Z vyzo: without any exports
2018-03-01T21:52:14Z vyzo: say you have a module that defines methods for classes or generics
2018-03-01T21:52:19Z vyzo: nothing exported
2018-03-01T21:52:30Z jcowan: then there is no phasing issue
2018-03-01T21:52:41Z vyzo: so how do you decide which phase to import for?
2018-03-01T21:52:58Z vyzo: you might want to use it at phi=0 (runtime) or you may want these methods for your expander
2018-03-01T21:53:14Z jcowan: All of them.
2018-03-01T21:53:32Z vyzo: that's what forces the language to be the same in all phases then :)
2018-03-01T21:53:51Z vyzo: say you have a bunch of classes defined for expander usage
2018-03-01T21:54:08Z vyzo: with explicit phasing, you put this in a module and you import for-syntax
2018-03-01T21:54:17Z vyzo: with implicit phasing .... you just import?
2018-03-01T21:54:23Z vyzo: and it gets evaled at phi=0 too?
2018-03-01T21:55:07Z vyzo: and what about a module that defines a bunch of stuff at phi=0 and a bunch of stuff at phi=1, how is that represented in an implicit phasing system?
2018-03-01T21:55:23Z jcowan: I think R6RS implies that modules are only instantiated once
2018-03-01T21:55:40Z vyzo: how does AOT compilation work then?
2018-03-01T21:55:42Z jcowan: In implicit phasing, references to phi are simply ignored
2018-03-01T21:56:08Z vyzo: gerbil modules are single instantiation too btw
2018-03-01T21:58:19Z gwatt: ecraven: and some examples: https://gist.github.com/gwatt/b0f4d94ab985bb90fb62898c821876c1
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2018-03-01T22:49:21Z jcowan: I note that Racket comes with only one non-sexp language, Algol 60, and it is closed: Algol 60 modules export nothing
2018-03-01T22:50:17Z jcowan: the API allows you to execute a file or a string in Algol 60 syntax for effect, and that's it
2018-03-01T22:50:29Z jcowan: no, actually there is also the Java-oid family
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2018-03-01T22:55:15Z willghatch[m]: jcowan: Racket has Honu, which is an experiment to have nice macros with a javascript-style syntax.  I've made Rash, a line-oriented shell language in Racket.  I know someone made a python implementation (though I don't think it interoperates with normal Racket well).  There are a handful of non-s-expression languages.
2018-03-01T22:55:30Z jcowan: I'll read about Rash
2018-03-01T22:56:12Z jcowan: honu is seriously under-documented
2018-03-01T22:56:39Z willghatch[m]: It's still fairly alpha and has a to-do list a mile long, but I use it as my daily driver shell.  I'm trying to write a paper about it.
2018-03-01T22:57:42Z jcowan: Coolbeans
2018-03-01T22:58:30Z jcowan: vyzo: I note that PyonR (Python-in-Racket, not to be confused with Pycket which is Racket-in-RPython) uses predicate dispatch
2018-03-01T22:58:35Z jcowan: https://github.com/pedropramos/PyonR
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2018-03-01T22:59:46Z willghatch[m]: Let me know of any feedback you have about Rash.  I like it, but it's my baby and I haven't had much outside commentary or criticism yet.
2018-03-01T23:00:09Z jcowan: will do
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2018-03-01T23:00:24Z jcowan: I'm also reading chapter 17 on how to write a racket language
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2018-03-02T03:40:01Z johnnymacs: I am starting to suspect scheme can do everything common lisp can do
2018-03-02T03:43:37Z pierpa: intercal can too
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2018-03-02T03:57:11Z gwatt: johnnymacs: the fun thing about turing completeness is that every turing complete language can do what every other turing complete language can do
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2018-03-02T03:58:09Z pjb: johnnymacs: as long as you have enough memory, Turing Equivalence ensures it.
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2018-03-02T06:01:51Z mrm: I like to argue with people that C isn't turing complete.
2018-03-02T06:03:11Z mrm: (Since fixed pointer sizes puts an upper limit on how much memory you could potentially use.)
2018-03-02T06:03:15Z pierpa: Of course it isn't. C can't unlimited memory.
2018-03-02T06:03:21Z pierpa: can't have
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2018-03-02T06:07:18Z mrm: Last time I got into that argument with someone, they tried to claim that since they could use the file system as a potentially unbounded tape, it still counted.
2018-03-02T06:07:54Z pierpa: file sizes are limited too
2018-03-02T06:08:14Z pierpa: and possible file names aren't unlimited either
2018-03-02T06:09:17Z pierpa: they coul'd hve an unlimited supply of tapes though
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2018-03-02T06:13:47Z pierpa: C + mount next tape + mount previous tape, would be ok
2018-03-02T06:17:17Z pierpa: (for a sufficiently deranged value of "ok")
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2018-03-02T06:40:43Z ecraven: jcowan: regarding predicate dispatch, would it be useful to have predicates that span across arguments?
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2018-03-02T06:44:33Z mrm: Yea, but file system limitations aren't hard-coded into the C language.
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2018-03-02T08:46:55Z ecraven: should a function that closes a window (in a gui setting) be (close ..) or (close! ..)
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2018-03-02T08:59:15Z GreaseMonkey: ecraven: possibly (close! ...)
2018-03-02T08:59:27Z GreaseMonkey: it mutates state
2018-03-02T08:59:44Z GreaseMonkey: but then again some could say that (write ...) does that too...
2018-03-02T09:01:13Z ecraven: GreaseMonkey: yea, essentially *every* gui function should have a ! :-/
2018-03-02T09:01:21Z ecraven: but I guess this is a philosophical problem in the end ;)
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2018-03-02T11:39:45Z zalt: hello, i'm a newb learning scheme
2018-03-02T11:40:12Z zalt: is it important to understand how lists work? i mean things like improper/proper lists
2018-03-02T11:40:49Z zalt: i find them confusing a bit, i wonder if there are applications to improper lists
2018-03-02T11:41:03Z ecraven: zalt: there are ;)
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2018-03-02T11:45:32Z zalt: hmf, also i'm wondering does knowing the fundamentals of scheme translate to some sort of knowledge in common lisp?
2018-03-02T11:46:37Z zalt: i mean they're supposed to be dialects but i don't know if they have become very different from each other
2018-03-02T11:47:14Z ecraven: in spirit there are many similarities
2018-03-02T11:47:17Z ecraven: but also some differences ;)
2018-03-02T11:49:18Z zalt: can you recommend a way for indentation? i find my own code unreadable with procedural habits :D
2018-03-02T11:50:10Z zalt: there are so many parenthesis!
2018-03-02T11:50:11Z ecraven: use an editor that can indent correctly
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2018-03-02T11:50:24Z ecraven: there aren't many more than in other languages, just in other places
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2018-03-02T12:10:51Z smokeink: hello, does anyone by chance have this file "minisiod.zip" <- http://people.delphiforums.com/gjc/minisiod.html  ? the link on the page is dead
2018-03-02T12:11:19Z ecraven: have you tried archive.org?
2018-03-02T12:13:59Z smokeink: no google results for inurl:"archive.org" minisiod   or site:"archive.org" minisiod.zip etc
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2018-03-02T12:49:49Z foof`: elly: better documentation is SRFI 159
2018-03-02T12:49:55Z zalt: i wonder what's the difference between '( (a b) c ) and '( '(a b) c )
2018-03-02T12:50:19Z zalt: i understand that quote is supposed to be stating that the list is to be treated as data explicitly, but in this case?
2018-03-02T12:52:31Z ecraven: zalt: 'foo is the same as (quote foo)
2018-03-02T12:52:43Z ecraven: so the second one contains an extra (quote (a b))
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2018-03-02T12:55:54Z zalt: yes, but what does that mean in this case? i mean when we're already inside a quoted list, is there a difference between (a b) and '(a b)
2018-03-02T12:56:13Z ecraven: yes
2018-03-02T12:56:24Z ecraven: rudybot: (list '(foo) '('foo))
2018-03-02T12:56:26Z rudybot: ecraven: your sandbox is ready
2018-03-02T12:56:26Z rudybot: ecraven: ; Value: '((foo) ('foo))
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2018-03-02T12:56:38Z ecraven: rudybot: (car 'foo)
2018-03-02T12:56:39Z rudybot: ecraven: error: car: contract violation <NEWLINE>   expected: pair? <NEWLINE>   given: 'foo
2018-03-02T12:56:45Z ecraven: rudybot: (car '(foo))
2018-03-02T12:56:45Z rudybot: ecraven: ; Value: 'foo
2018-03-02T12:56:49Z ecraven: rudybot: (car '('foo))
2018-03-02T12:56:49Z rudybot: ecraven: ; Value: ''foo
2018-03-02T12:57:20Z gwatt: rudybot: (caar '('foo))
2018-03-02T12:57:23Z rudybot: gwatt: your sandbox is ready
2018-03-02T12:57:23Z rudybot: gwatt: ; Value: 'quote
2018-03-02T12:58:28Z zalt: lol what the hell, two quotes :|
2018-03-02T12:59:21Z zalt: i should learn a bit more about the uses of these things, hopefully they'll be clear then, :)
2018-03-02T12:59:52Z gwatt: It's a weird case in the pretty-printer
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2018-03-02T13:00:49Z gwatt: "quote" is a syntax for creating symbols, but it's also a valid symbol by itself
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2018-03-02T13:01:31Z zalt: hmm, so it's kind of useless to have '( '(a b) ) ?
2018-03-02T13:03:01Z ecraven: zalt: I've never needed quotes inside quotes in all the years I've used scheme so far ;)
2018-03-02T13:03:02Z gwatt: '( '(a b)) is the same as (list (list 'quote (list'a 'b)))
2018-03-02T13:03:27Z gwatt: so nesting quotes is probably not what you want
2018-03-02T13:04:21Z zalt: ty
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2018-03-02T14:58:26Z zalt: what's the difference between the "let" way of doing things and the "define" way of doing things
2018-03-02T14:58:39Z zalt: is the let way the more "functional" approach?
2018-03-02T15:01:26Z longshi: with let, you create a local scope - with define, you assign a value in a scope "you're" in.
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2018-03-02T15:01:46Z longshi: Or rather, where the define exp is.
2018-03-02T15:02:14Z longshi: So they're different in that way and I wouldn't call one more functional than the other.
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2018-03-02T15:04:00Z zalt: hmm, is there a way to have more than one statement in a lambda expression?
2018-03-02T15:05:07Z pjb: There are no statements in lisp or scheme.
2018-03-02T15:05:10Z pjb: Only expressions.
2018-03-02T15:05:59Z pjb: Just write several expressiosn: (lambda () 1 2 3)
2018-03-02T15:06:56Z elly: if you need several expressions in a context they aren't normally allowed (like the arms of (if x y z) for example), you can use begin
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2018-03-02T15:17:41Z ski: a command is an expression whose value(s) is (are) ignored. all but the last expression (a) in a `begin' expression; and (b) after the parameter specification in a `lambda' expression; and (c) after the local variable initializations in a `let' expression -- are commands
2018-03-02T15:18:23Z ski: a command is only useful for its side-effect
2018-03-02T15:18:59Z ski: zalt : if you're looking for a "functional" approach, you should probably try to avoid side-effects, for the most part
2018-03-02T15:20:20Z ski:   (begin ?command ... ?expression)
2018-03-02T15:20:33Z ski:   (lambda (?parameter ...) ?command ... ?expression)
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2018-03-02T15:20:57Z ski:   (let ((?local-variable ?expression) ...) ?command ... ?expression)
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2018-03-02T15:57:05Z gwatt: Has anyone seen this yet: https://github.com/google/schism ?
2018-03-02T15:59:15Z elly: I hadn't! Neat :)
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2018-03-02T16:25:51Z ecraven: gwatt: it was on hacker news a few days ago, might be interesting soon!
2018-03-02T16:28:16Z vyzo: i saw it a few days ago too
2018-03-02T16:28:20Z vyzo: seems very interesting
2018-03-02T16:28:25Z vyzo: but they aren't very far along yet
2018-03-02T16:29:05Z gwatt: no, but they did say the focus was on bootstrapping
2018-03-02T16:29:18Z vyzo: yeah, limited experiment
2018-03-02T16:29:26Z vyzo: but i am curious to see them achieve proper tail recursion
2018-03-02T16:29:35Z vyzo: they don't even have lambdas or closures yet
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2018-03-02T16:29:54Z gwatt: nope, just good-ol (define (foo ...) ...)
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2018-03-03T08:30:10Z zalt: (i'm a newb learning simple recursion and stuff) i wonder how a program flow can go in an actual project?
2018-03-03T08:30:36Z zalt: aren't some things inherently procedural?, also what about the entry point of the program
2018-03-03T08:33:03Z akkad: start with a list, work your way down. figure out which questions to ask on each round.
2018-03-03T08:33:18Z akkad: Little Schemer series is fantastic for those concepts imho
2018-03-03T08:35:00Z zalt: hmf, i will give it a go
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2018-03-04T09:08:07Z zalt: is using optional argument to a function just to be used by recursion a bad idea?
2018-03-04T09:10:36Z zalt: i know my code is probably laughably complicated but i meant something like https://paste.debian.net/1013021/
2018-03-04T09:12:33Z zalt: hmf, i could've just used division in last step (to return the power < num), i wonder what else could be simplified
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2018-03-04T10:56:55Z wasamasa: it's not really needed because inner defines are a thing
2018-03-04T10:57:06Z wasamasa: also, don't use underscores in names
2018-03-04T10:57:47Z wasamasa: please read https://mumble.net/~campbell/scheme/style.txt
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2018-03-04T13:41:14Z zalt: wasamasa: i read a part of it, ty
2018-03-04T13:41:57Z zalt: an inner define would only be useful in my case if i had a nested function that uses set! for example?
2018-03-04T13:43:14Z zalt: i mean you can't recurse with a define set to a constant even if you set it to something like (set! bla (+ bla 1)), because it will always be in a different scope?
2018-03-04T13:44:49Z wasamasa: wat
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2018-03-04T13:45:36Z zalt: i mean, :|
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2018-03-04T13:47:57Z wasamasa: what exactly is that function supposed to do?
2018-03-04T13:48:36Z elly: an example might be helpful
2018-03-04T13:48:46Z elly: oh, I see, there's a paste above
2018-03-04T13:48:52Z wasamasa: http://ix.io/Smg
2018-03-04T13:49:11Z wasamasa: here's a stupid rewrite, but I feel like the function can be expressed better with srfi-1
2018-03-04T13:49:57Z elly: it's finding the first power is base that is larger than num?
2018-03-04T13:51:10Z elly: because if so I would write that like this: (define (largest-pow num base) (let loop ((c base)) (if (> c num) c (loop (* c base)))))
2018-03-04T13:51:19Z zalt: elly: nah, the largest power smaller than n
2018-03-04T13:51:21Z elly: without using explicit recursion at all, "just" iteration
2018-03-04T13:51:24Z elly: oh, okay
2018-03-04T13:51:37Z amz3: that is you must use a named let
2018-03-04T13:51:43Z zalt: wasamasa: i see i think it's clear, you're using the alternative way to define a function right?
2018-03-04T13:52:13Z elly: in that case, what I said, but replace (> c num) with (> (* c base) num)
2018-03-04T13:52:27Z zalt: i mean (define (funcname parmaters..) body) instead of (define (lambda ..
2018-03-04T13:52:48Z wasamasa: zalt: yes, we're not using ancient schemes after all
2018-03-04T13:59:42Z ecraven: zalt: the only time I use that form is when I need (define x (let .... (lambda ..)))
2018-03-04T14:01:06Z zalt: ecraven: i don't totally get the point of let, is it like to replace any occurrence of the (assigned) variables by whatever we have assigned them to?
2018-03-04T14:01:21Z ecraven: let is for local variables
2018-03-04T14:01:26Z zalt: the book i'm reading is saying that it's similiar to how a function works excpet that you cant call it or something
2018-03-04T14:01:48Z ecraven: the typical example of what I mean is: (define count (let ((i 0)) (lambda () (set! i (+ i 1)) i)))
2018-03-04T14:02:06Z ecraven: that is a very confusing explanation
2018-03-04T14:02:15Z ecraven: maybe consider reading another book? which book is that?
2018-03-04T14:02:23Z wasamasa: inb4 the little schemer
2018-03-04T14:02:45Z ecraven: I never really warmed to those.. I prefer SICP
2018-03-04T14:03:02Z zalt: "the scheme programming language 3d"
2018-03-04T14:03:19Z ecraven: tspl is probably good too, never read it myself
2018-03-04T14:03:19Z zalt: your example is clear
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2018-03-04T14:03:27Z wasamasa: ah right, I remember that mr. dybvig prefers that style
2018-03-04T14:03:32Z wasamasa: because less magic or something
2018-03-04T14:03:49Z wasamasa: there is one downside though, if you have a function returning a lambda, that can be less than clear
2018-03-04T14:03:54Z zalt: i didn't know you could set! stuff that are "defined" using let
2018-03-04T14:04:39Z wasamasa: you introduce a binding with define/let (global/local), then you can change it with set!
2018-03-04T14:05:51Z zalt: is define global only in the "file scope"? or is it global even inside functions
2018-03-04T14:06:00Z ecraven: the former
2018-03-04T14:06:19Z ecraven: the latter is called "internal define", you can think of it like letrec*
2018-03-04T14:06:46Z zalt: hmf, also one thing i'm not totally sure about, when you have a function body like (lambda () (+ 1 1) (* 3 4) )
2018-03-04T14:06:53Z zalt: does it evaluate to 12 in this case?
2018-03-04T14:06:58Z ecraven: of course
2018-03-04T14:07:14Z zalt: umhmm i see, ty
2018-03-04T14:07:14Z ecraven: the return value is the value of the last expression
2018-03-04T14:08:10Z wasamasa: it's like the body is wrapped into (begin ...)
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2018-03-04T16:57:09Z chasote-: i was the schism (scheme to wasm) announcement a few days ago and it didn't seem to get much traction out on the internets. what gives? it seems very exciting. more lisp options for web! is it just in too much of an alpha phase right now to be too excited? or is there not much scheme for web development going on to make this huge news?
2018-03-04T16:57:25Z chasote-: *saw the schism announcement
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2018-03-04T17:06:48Z wasamasa: it doesn't even have lambdas
2018-03-04T17:07:36Z wasamasa: if you want a reality check on whether hype is deserved for a piece of code, go try it out yourself
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2018-03-04T17:53:36Z elly: what traction would it have, really :P
2018-03-04T17:54:08Z elly: it's not (yet) the kind of thing you'd want to code in, and there are already schemes that compile to js, so compiling to wasm instead, while cool technically, doesn't really open up new capabilities
2018-03-04T17:54:20Z jcowan: except perhaps performance
2018-03-04T17:54:40Z elly: perhaps that, yeah
2018-03-04T17:55:25Z vyzo: it's more of an experiment i think
2018-03-04T17:55:40Z vyzo: they are not seriously trying to make a Scheme for WASM
2018-03-04T17:56:07Z vyzo: then again who knows, maybe they are :)
2018-03-04T17:56:29Z elly: it's hard to say sometimes with google
2018-03-04T17:56:40Z elly: it could be a toy project or it could be the basis for an entire technology stack that just isn't public yet
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2018-03-04T17:58:30Z elly: I hope it keeps expanding and becomes a full r7rs scheme
2018-03-04T17:58:44Z elly: because the javascript one I reach for right now isn't r7rs and has some serious deficiencies
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2018-03-04T18:04:47Z elly: (and besides is awfully slow, due to being a direct interpreter and written in js)
2018-03-04T18:05:08Z wasamasa: it's not by google, it's by someone working at google
2018-03-04T18:05:27Z wasamasa: that someone hasn't been terribly smart about keeping personal stuff off work time, so it's now owned by google
2018-03-04T18:06:06Z wasamasa: so I don't expect anything serious
2018-03-04T18:07:12Z elly: fwiw, most large tech companies (including google) lay claim to anything you do, even if it's off "work time"
2018-03-04T18:07:18Z elly: as part of their employment agreements
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2018-03-04T18:07:58Z elly: some jurisdictions limit the extent to which they can do that, but not by very much usually
2018-03-04T18:08:42Z wasamasa: good that this is illegal in germany :>
2018-03-04T18:09:49Z elly: I am glad to hear that, but this person is in the US according to their github profile, so it is not about them not being smart :P
2018-03-04T18:12:37Z wasamasa: I'm still not convinced by that argument, otherwise no google employee would be able to contribute code to something ever
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2018-03-04T18:18:25Z elly: hm?
2018-03-04T18:18:41Z elly: I can talk a little about this, I've been a google employee in the US for almost 8 years now
2018-03-04T18:18:59Z elly: it's relatively easy, as an engineer, to get permission to open-source something you've written under google's copyright
2018-03-04T18:19:03Z elly: (which is what this person did)
2018-03-04T18:19:14Z elly: it's harder, but not impossible, to get the copyright itself assigned to you instead of google
2018-03-04T18:19:38Z elly: there's a ton of open-source stuff written by individuals and released by them but copyright google out there, some of mine included :)
2018-03-04T18:21:25Z wasamasa: that's fine, but can they contribute to, say, emacs?
2018-03-04T18:21:46Z wasamasa: can they get the copyright assignment to the fsf signed?
2018-03-04T18:22:54Z elly: I think so, yeah
2018-03-04T18:23:08Z elly: I've only contributed once to a project that needed copyright assignment (not emacs) and it was not difficult to do
2018-03-04T18:23:36Z elly: anyway, individual mileage may vary, I don't speak for my employer, etc etc
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2018-03-04T18:35:18Z wasamasa: the argument is still semantically correct, if google allows you to assign copyright, they no longer own the code although it was done while you were employed to them
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2018-03-04T18:39:47Z qu1j0t3:    wasamasa | I'm still not convinced by that argument, otherwise no google employee would be able to contribute code to something ever   // Exactly. This is why they so rarely do so (nor Apple).
2018-03-04T18:40:04Z wasamasa: yeah, it explains why they hardly have any presence on github
2018-03-04T18:40:16Z qu1j0t3: i've had Apple people in particular tell me it's impossible
2018-03-04T18:40:30Z wasamasa: once they've been snatched away, fun time's over
2018-03-04T18:40:47Z qu1j0t3: i've personally backed out of major licensing deals with my personal code just because I was under a no moonlighting contract with companies like this
2018-03-04T18:40:59Z qu1j0t3: ...if  you read such things to the letter.
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2018-03-05T09:21:12Z faLUCE: Hello, is there an online web-based scheme editor+compiler?
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2018-03-05T09:21:46Z faLUCE: (just found it, nm)
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2018-03-05T09:32:45Z faLUCE: How can I iterate the elements of this list and display them while iterating?   http://rextester.com/live/SWLKR86312
2018-03-05T09:35:35Z ecraven: for-each or map
2018-03-05T09:36:25Z faLUCE: ecraven: where can I find a simple example? I'm new in scheme
2018-03-05T09:36:43Z ecraven: rudybot: (for-each display '(1 2 3))
2018-03-05T09:36:43Z rudybot: ecraven: ; stdout: "123"
2018-03-05T09:37:15Z ecraven: rudybot: (map (lambda (x) (display x) (+ x 1)) '(1 2 3))
2018-03-05T09:37:15Z rudybot: ecraven: ; Value: '(2 3 4)
2018-03-05T09:37:16Z rudybot: ecraven: ; stdout: "123"
2018-03-05T09:37:23Z faLUCE: thanks
2018-03-05T09:38:26Z faLUCE: ecraven: what if I want to access each element, manipulate if (for example: adding "+1") and display it?
2018-03-05T09:38:40Z ecraven: use a lambda, look at my second example
2018-03-05T09:38:40Z faLUCE: ecraven: sorry
2018-03-05T09:38:46Z faLUCE: ;-) just saw it
2018-03-05T09:38:49Z faLUCE: thanks
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2018-03-05T09:48:37Z faLUCE: given:   (define list1 '("one"  "x" "three" "x")) (define list2 '("foo" "bar" "fred " "wilma"))    <---- how can I set element[i] of list1 to element[i] of list2 IF element[i] of list1 == "x" ?
2018-03-05T09:49:27Z ecraven: rudybot: (map (lambda (a b) (if (even? a) a b)) '(1 2 3 4 5) '(a b c d e))
2018-03-05T09:49:27Z rudybot: ecraven: ; Value: '(a 2 c 4 e)
2018-03-05T09:49:40Z ecraven: the lambda function you pass to map can have multiple parameters, to map over multiple lists in parallel
2018-03-05T09:49:43Z faLUCE: again tnx
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2018-03-05T14:43:05Z faLUCE: given:  (define list1 '("one " "two " "three "))   <--- how can I remove the element in position 1?
2018-03-05T14:44:31Z gwatt: faLUCE: what do you mean "remove" ?
2018-03-05T14:44:52Z faLUCE: gwatt: delete
2018-03-05T14:44:56Z gwatt: You can just do (define list2 (cdr list1)) and now list is '("two" "three")
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2018-03-05T14:45:27Z faLUCE: gwatt: I want to delete an element at an arbitrary position (specified as parameter)
2018-03-05T14:46:12Z faLUCE: something like  (delet list1 2)
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2018-03-05T14:50:52Z faLUCE: I found that, https://stackoverflow.com/questions/1905222/how-to-delete-an-element-from-a-list-in-scheme/8331205   but it doesn't remove  an element by index
2018-03-05T14:51:17Z gwatt: I think most of the remove/delete procedures take an element or predicate, not an arbitrary
2018-03-05T14:52:11Z gwatt: arbitrary index
2018-03-05T14:52:37Z faLUCE: gwatt: so there's not a way to do that?
2018-03-05T14:53:13Z gwatt: It should be pretty easy to write
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2018-03-05T14:55:52Z faLUCE: sorry, I'm  new in scheme
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2018-03-05T14:57:27Z gwatt: No worries.
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2018-03-05T14:58:26Z gwatt: Are you familiar with car / cdr ?
2018-03-05T14:58:31Z gwatt: and cons ?
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2018-03-05T15:28:09Z pjb: faLUCE: (define (remove-at index list) (cond ((null? list) list) ((= 0 index) (cdr list)) (else (cons (car list) (remove-at (- index 1) (cdr list))))))
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2018-03-05T15:34:07Z vyzo: you might want to put the list as first argument
2018-03-05T15:34:23Z vyzo: to be compatible with other list functions that take indices
2018-03-05T15:34:30Z vyzo: interface-compatible
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2018-03-05T16:14:34Z faLUCE: thanks pjb
2018-03-05T16:15:26Z pjb: Don't thank me, it would have been much better for you if you had written it yourself.  I hope next time you write the code yourself.  There's no better way to learn.
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2018-03-05T16:16:02Z faLUCE: pjb: unfortunately I just have to add a function to lilypond, it would be too long for me to learn scheme only for this purpose
2018-03-05T16:17:15Z qu1j0t3: pjb: (agreed. maybe don't paste an impl next time :-)
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2018-03-05T16:22:57Z faLUCE: pjb: doesn't seem to work:  http://rextester.com/live/FSPR1739
2018-03-05T16:25:01Z faLUCE: I mean: it doesn't modify the variable
2018-03-05T16:25:22Z faLUCE: I mean: it doesn't modify the LIST
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2018-03-05T16:32:01Z pjb: faLUCE: Functions don't mutate.  They return results.
2018-03-05T16:32:12Z pjb: (set! list (remove-at 1 list))
2018-03-05T16:32:32Z pjb: If you really need to use set!. But in general you don't.
2018-03-05T16:32:50Z pjb: (let ((list-minus-one (remove-at 1 list))) (use list-minus-one)) ; no set!
2018-03-05T16:34:02Z pjb: faLUCE: now, the probleme with modifying the list, which could be done with setcdr! and setcar!, is that for a delete operation it's not always possible!  If you are deleting the last element of the list (remove-at 0 (list 1)), then you cannot transform the last pair of the list into a null!
2018-03-05T16:34:12Z pjb: The empty list is not a pair.
2018-03-05T16:34:22Z pjb: faLUCE: therefore it's not wise to try to mutate the list.
2018-03-05T16:35:44Z pjb: faLUCE: Notice this is why scheme use the term procedure: procedures can mutate.  functions here is taken in a more mathematical sense, where no mutation is possible.
2018-03-05T16:36:24Z faLUCE: I see. then I have to copy values to a temp list
2018-03-05T16:36:40Z pjb: faLUCE: the advantage of writing functions instead of procedures, is that since there's  no mutation with function, their results only depend on their arguments, and therefore it's easier to test and validate them.  Using more function (without mutation) in a program can lead to fewer bug, and it's easier to debug.
2018-03-05T16:36:44Z vyzo: you could write the function to use set-cdr! and mutate the list if you absolutely must
2018-03-05T16:36:48Z vyzo: that's an exercise for you
2018-03-05T16:36:58Z vyzo: but you shouldn't program this way without careful deliberation
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2018-03-05T16:37:48Z pjb: Indeed. remove-at performs the copy with cons.  If you implement a remove-at! it won't copy the list, but then each time you call it you have to ask yourself whether you can modify that list or not (and if not, you have to copy it before calling remove-at! anyways).
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2018-03-05T17:52:19Z francogrex: can someone function with only r4rs or will he be the laughing stock of the community?
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2018-03-05T17:54:50Z cmaloney: function in what sense?
2018-03-05T17:55:13Z vyzo: r4rs is sufficient to bootstrap modern schemes
2018-03-05T17:55:19Z vyzo: so no laughting matter
2018-03-05T17:57:43Z francogrex: ok how do I display a TAB character?
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2018-03-05T18:04:11Z ecraven: (display (string #\tab)) probably?
2018-03-05T18:08:58Z wasamasa: why would (display #\tab) not suffice?
2018-03-05T18:09:47Z Zipheir: If one needs a dictionary structure with fast (i.e. < O(n)) lookup and update, is it necessary to resort to imperative programming with vectors, or is there some functional alternative similar to Haskell's Array?
2018-03-05T18:10:15Z wasamasa: the functional alternative is something you need to program yourself
2018-03-05T18:10:17Z Zipheir: SRFI 101 looks useful, but is implemented by very few schemes.
2018-03-05T18:10:41Z wasamasa: also, why not just use srfi-69?
2018-03-05T18:10:52Z wasamasa: that's the one most likely implemented
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2018-03-05T18:13:48Z Zipheir: wasamasa: I'm mainly curious as to whether it's necessary to pull out ! procedures when list-based structures aren't efficient enough. I'm aware that there are a number of good imperative options.
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2018-03-05T18:17:03Z wasamasa: given a busy schemer implementing alternatives, it may be conceivable that you can do better
2018-03-05T18:17:18Z Zipheir: wasamasa: But yes, the answer is probably 'so write the structure you need!'. I would love to see an immutable vector type, though, or at least more attention for SRFI-101's RA lists.
2018-03-05T18:17:19Z francogrex: (display (string #\tab)) or (display #\tab) SchemeException: ERROR: undefined variable "ab" . I told you I have a poor man's R4RS
2018-03-05T18:17:30Z vyzo: immutable vectors???
2018-03-05T18:17:35Z vyzo: what is the world coming to
2018-03-05T18:17:52Z ecraven: francogrex: which r5rs do you have?
2018-03-05T18:17:55Z wasamasa: personally, I have my doubts that you can beat mutable vectors at efficiency, other than by specializing them or going for unsafe variants
2018-03-05T18:18:19Z ecraven: wasamasa: depends on your metric, but for raw speed, I don't see how you can ever beat them
2018-03-05T18:18:20Z wasamasa: this has been demonstrated for haskell as well in the articles explaining why the canonical quicksort isn't really quicksort
2018-03-05T18:18:32Z francogrex: jscheme r4rs not r5
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2018-03-05T18:20:02Z wasamasa: francogrex: I've forgot again why you're bothering with jscheme
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2018-03-05T18:21:00Z ecraven: francogrex: so #\tab should work in r4rs, if it doesn't, that's probably a bug
2018-03-05T18:21:07Z ecraven: you can try (display "\t"), that might work
2018-03-05T18:21:43Z Zipheir: wasamasa: Obviously mutable is going to win efficiency-wise. It might be still be nice to have a pure alternative.
2018-03-05T18:22:39Z ecraven: well, if you need history, then immutable might win, for example
2018-03-05T18:22:47Z ecraven: so depending on your exact problem and metric, ymmv
2018-03-05T18:23:05Z Zipheir: ecraven: history?
2018-03-05T18:24:18Z gwatt: previous incarnations of your data
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2018-03-05T18:25:57Z Zipheir: Ah, right.
2018-03-05T18:30:14Z ecraven: to me, that's the main point of immutable data structures (and concurrency, if you want that).
2018-03-05T18:30:31Z ecraven: if I don't need previous versions and no one else is accessing the data, why not just mutate it?
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2018-03-05T18:35:31Z Zipheir: Assignment makes everything more complicated, but you've probably heard the FP spiel plenty of times :)
2018-03-05T18:35:35Z francogrex: wasamasa I am also using kawa. it's just the jscheme was already available and very light (the jar is few kbs)
2018-03-05T18:35:50Z wasamasa: well, now you know why
2018-03-05T18:36:07Z ecraven: Zipheir: that is a very generic proclamation that is just plain incorrect
2018-03-05T18:36:09Z francogrex: it's poor mostly yes
2018-03-05T18:36:21Z ecraven: I can assign all I want inside my function, if you never notice it outside, that makes nothing complicated
2018-03-05T18:36:35Z ecraven: kawa is a nice system, and almost r7rs complete
2018-03-05T18:36:44Z ecraven: (and has a lot of extensions and additional libraries)
2018-03-05T18:36:54Z ecraven: I'd definitely use that instead of jscheme.. it even works well enough on android
2018-03-05T18:37:45Z francogrex: ok
2018-03-05T18:37:48Z aeth: Zipheir: assignment only makes things complicated when the scope is all over the place
2018-03-05T18:37:53Z francogrex: i do use it btw
2018-03-05T18:38:23Z aeth: Zipheir: Pure functions that feed into mutable data structures is a perfectly fine way to do things because then you limit what you have to think about as far as mutation goes, without giving up all of the efficiency.
2018-03-05T18:38:40Z Zipheir: aeth: True
2018-03-05T18:38:42Z aeth: At this is the best way for Lisp/Scheme imo. Otherwise, you need a much more FP-optimizing compiler.
2018-03-05T18:38:48Z aeth: s/At this/And this/
2018-03-05T18:43:44Z aeth: Imo mutation needs (1) the smallest possible scope to keep things simple and (2) no surprises. Assembly, that has surprises. Whoops, your register value changed, hope you like garbage data. Scheme? It has the foo! convention so you know to be careful.
2018-03-05T18:46:39Z Zipheir: aeth: Yeah, lisp programs rarely have the kind of state nightmares that other languages seem prone to.
2018-03-05T18:47:32Z aeth: scoping with let and having meaningful non-camel-case names really helps
2018-03-05T18:48:06Z Zipheir: The ! convention and lexical scoping are helpful for avoiding messes.
2018-03-05T18:48:12Z Zipheir: Exactly.
2018-03-05T18:48:58Z ecraven: hehe, so should database functions have a !? should it be display! and write!?
2018-03-05T18:49:10Z ecraven: also, read!
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2018-03-05T18:56:06Z vyzo: i think ! should be for data destructive operations
2018-03-05T18:56:11Z vyzo: not i/o per se
2018-03-05T18:56:18Z vyzo: it's a fuzzy convention :)
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2018-03-05T18:56:45Z Zipheir: Well, they do change the state of ports...
2018-03-05T18:58:09Z ecraven: it's a slippery slope, lots of functions might need a ! then
2018-03-05T18:58:58Z vyzo: the state of ports is not really accessible externally though
2018-03-05T18:59:09Z vyzo: i was thinking more of destructive on the argument
2018-03-05T18:59:30Z Zipheir: vyzo: Yeah, that makes sense.
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2018-03-05T21:41:02Z toliapo: hello
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2018-03-05T21:41:45Z toliapo: I have a small question for the ones on the know. Anyone willing to answer?
2018-03-05T21:43:18Z wasamasa: the best way of not getting an answer is not asking the actual question
2018-03-05T21:43:48Z toliapo: Thanks for the gem, I wanted to be sure to not be a nuance.
2018-03-05T21:45:08Z wasamasa: this is IRC, not upwork.com
2018-03-05T21:45:09Z toliapo: I am trying to create small *static* executables with scheme but I am not being too successful till now, chicken kind of works but cannot create real static executables and racket does the same, anyone could shed any light?
2018-03-05T21:45:28Z toliapo: sorry, I probably mistaked room.
2018-03-05T21:45:36Z toliapo: forget the question.
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2018-03-05T21:46:33Z wasamasa: all CHICKEN does is invoking your C compiler
2018-03-05T21:46:42Z wasamasa: so, sure, it can be done with enough effort
2018-03-05T21:47:49Z toliapo: well, not so easy, you could generate the C file but to statically link it you need to compile the eggs used also and all together the file size gets big.
2018-03-05T21:48:02Z wasamasa: welcome to static linking
2018-03-05T21:48:24Z toliapo: All that I wanted to know is if someone is using scheme for building small executables in small systems (like uC)
2018-03-05T21:49:25Z wasamasa: look at go, another prime example of how static linking makes for big executables
2018-03-05T21:50:03Z toliapo: I know that it does I am just asking if there is some way to obtain terseness in scheme.
2018-03-05T21:50:44Z toliapo: Maybe it could be possible to write a VM to have it running in KB instead of MB, just asking, you know, it is usually called chit chat.
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2018-03-05T21:51:02Z wasamasa: that's an interesting name for a VM
2018-03-05T21:51:31Z toliapo: well, I have to admit it *is* funny but the question remains.
2018-03-05T21:51:33Z wasamasa: also, not static linking
2018-03-05T21:51:44Z toliapo: excuse me?
2018-03-05T21:51:59Z wasamasa: sure, you can have a few megabytes of interpreter + runtime, then a few kilobytes of script to execute
2018-03-05T21:52:46Z toliapo: I could write a small VM in KBytes, I have done it for uPascal and I was wondering if the same could be done with scheme.
2018-03-05T21:53:21Z wasamasa: well, no full scheme
2018-03-05T21:54:47Z toliapo: no, but *system* scheme could be useful, with that I mean using scheme to write small, useful programs in little systems, I'd really like to program small systems at higher level that what I am using now (Assembler, C and uPascal/BCPL)
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2018-03-05T21:55:02Z wasamasa: you should investigate into forth
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2018-03-05T21:56:05Z toliapo: I have tried many  times but it is really a WOL (write only language), I have used forth but the high level of scheme is too attractive.
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2018-03-05T21:57:40Z toliapo: In the end seems that the realm of forth cannot be coped with an higher level language, ok. Just asking to the big boys.
2018-03-05T21:59:49Z wasamasa: um, forth *is* a high-level language
2018-03-05T22:00:00Z wasamasa: it has been implemented with a minimal footprint over and over again
2018-03-05T22:00:11Z wasamasa: the same cannot be said of scheme and lisp systems in general
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2018-03-05T22:01:22Z toliapo: well, let's not start an holy war ok? I have made my steps into forth, written a (very bad) interpreter, like everybody but in the end scheme is just at another level of abstraction and I thinkg that is being paid with the loss of compactness
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2018-03-05T22:01:52Z toliapo: I wanted to know if it is unavoidable.
2018-03-05T22:02:05Z wasamasa: like, if I look at chibi-scheme, it clocks in at a few MB
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2018-03-05T22:02:53Z wasamasa: it happens to be useful enough for people to write scripts in it
2018-03-05T22:03:30Z toliapo: The system could be ok in a few MB but the programs written in them (I tried to use it but never really worked for me, blame on me) aren't small and for small I as I said before mean in the forth range.
2018-03-05T22:04:26Z wasamasa: then you aren't going to be happy :>
2018-03-05T22:04:44Z toliapo: so that is not a real answer. I do not know if could be possible to write at very high level with little code. This is was my question has now become.
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2018-03-05T22:05:06Z toliapo: Yes, I believe I won't be happy but there is noharn asking
2018-03-05T22:05:07Z wasamasa: the goal of lisp is not to write as few characters as possible
2018-03-05T22:05:22Z gwatt: that's what perl and APL are for
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2018-03-05T22:06:03Z toliapo: I see another war coming, but really I appreciate the clean approach of LISP (and scheme) and I wanted the same on a uC
2018-03-05T22:06:18Z toliapo: But, as you said, I won't be happy.
2018-03-05T22:06:51Z toliapo: Ok, thanks for the hints and let's stop here. Waiting for a miracle.
2018-03-05T22:06:55Z wasamasa: lol
2018-03-05T22:07:41Z wasamasa: I quite like ruby as perl alternative, there's even an embeddable variant used in games
2018-03-05T22:08:08Z gwatt: perl6 is interesting
2018-03-05T22:08:17Z toliapo: which size are we speaking of, I mean: could be used on a uC (like the STM32F7 family?)
2018-03-05T22:08:24Z wasamasa: doubtful
2018-03-05T22:08:29Z wasamasa: just write C for that thing
2018-03-05T22:08:54Z wasamasa: the embedded part is about embedding it into another, much bigger program
2018-03-05T22:08:54Z gwatt: You *might* be able to embed s9fes as it's pretty miniscule
2018-03-05T22:09:15Z toliapo: I am just tired to use that stupid universal assembler anymore, after 30 years I am a bit tired (speaking of C)
2018-03-05T22:09:36Z toliapo: I have not heard of s9fes, do you have a link?
2018-03-05T22:09:59Z gwatt: https://duckduckgo.com/?q=s9fes&t=ffsb&ia=web
2018-03-05T22:10:37Z toliapo: Thanks, I 'll check it immediately. Do you have used it? Or know anyone that has?
2018-03-05T22:12:12Z gwatt: I've only played with it, but included in the software is a document for s9core, the embeddable part
2018-03-05T22:13:06Z toliapo: That seems interesting, I am checking it in another tab but still haven't got the size of the embeddable part. Time to read further.
2018-03-05T22:15:26Z toliapo: I have just read the README file and speaks about embedding it but still no info about the final size, furthermore the libc is needed so no big hopes, but is an interesting version to know about.
2018-03-05T22:17:32Z toliapo: Well, seems that the s9core is more a framework than a (more or less) complete language implementation. For much I love scheme I am not writing an interpreter, alas.
2018-03-05T22:18:57Z wasamasa: I always considered s9fes teaching material
2018-03-05T22:19:06Z wasamasa: why else would there be a book explaining how it's made
2018-03-05T22:19:41Z toliapo: well, what about Xenix and uOS/I-II-III and lot of other programs?
2018-03-05T22:20:25Z wasamasa: http://armpit.sourceforge.net/
2018-03-05T22:21:24Z toliapo: Yes, that was the name I was trying to get before, seems the most promising solution, I have tried (twice) to master it but failed, well ready for the third time.
2018-03-05T22:22:27Z toliapo: Anyway it isn't that small and furthermore it *is* a cross compiler, but seems the best the universe could offer today.
2018-03-05T22:22:39Z wasamasa: the website suggests BASIC :>
2018-03-05T22:23:01Z toliapo: I refrain upon it. Thanks.
2018-03-05T22:23:33Z toliapo: uPascal is the same as terse and many times better.
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2018-03-05T22:24:39Z wasamasa: well, it seems you've found your dream language
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2018-03-05T22:25:28Z toliapo: Not really, uPascal is the *worst* language bar all the others.
2018-03-05T22:26:06Z toliapo: My dream language would be more akin to lisp but I normally work (when I do) with uCs.
2018-03-05T22:26:19Z toliapo: And the two won't mix well.
2018-03-05T22:26:48Z toliapo: Ok. let's stop here and start speaking of something more important like girls and football.
2018-03-05T22:28:01Z toliapo: Thanks for the chat. Bye.
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2018-03-05T22:44:20Z elly: o_O
2018-03-05T22:54:41Z gwatt: yeah, that was awkward
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2018-03-05T23:04:58Z mrm: My dream language mostly seems to run away from unknown terrors.
2018-03-05T23:05:50Z mrm: Also, one of my teachers from highschool is there for some reason.
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2018-03-06T19:02:23Z wasamasa: jcowan: is this by some colleague of yours?
2018-03-06T19:02:25Z wasamasa: jcowan: https://sway.com/b1pRwmzuGjqB30On
2018-03-06T19:02:35Z wasamasa: jcowan: it links to sacrideo.us which you've used for r7rs stuff
2018-03-06T19:03:31Z jcowan: "Colleague" only in the sense that he lent the R7RS effort his server for a while.  It's by arcfide.
2018-03-06T19:04:56Z wasamasa: ok
2018-03-06T19:04:57Z jcowan: He also participated in R7RS WG1
2018-03-06T19:06:02Z jcowan: https://bitbucket.org/cowan/r7rs-wg1-infra/src/default/AaronHsu.md
2018-03-06T19:06:29Z wasamasa: fun
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2018-03-06T19:16:20Z jcowan: IMO APL and its relatives (notably K) are lovely languages with hideous syntax
2018-03-06T19:17:06Z wasamasa: how hard do you think it is to implement a lisp interpreter in any of them?
2018-03-06T19:17:07Z jcowan: I never could cram all the arity and type overloading of K into my poor monkey noggin
2018-03-06T19:17:41Z jcowan: straightforward, I'd say
2018-03-06T19:18:11Z jcowan: then again, the first Prolog interpreter was written in a dialect of Fortran that didn't even have IF-as-we-know-it
2018-03-06T19:18:54Z jcowan: in the name of portability, they used only the infamous "arithmetic IF":  IF(intexpression)label,label,label
2018-03-06T19:19:08Z wasamasa: the thing is that all I've seen in array processing languages is mathematics
2018-03-06T19:19:12Z jcowan: where the three labels are where you goto if the expression is negative, zero, or positive respectively
2018-03-06T19:19:22Z wasamasa: so I can't quite imagine doing, say, string processing
2018-03-06T19:19:50Z jcowan: K has builtin symbols a la Scheme, APL has only arrays of characters
2018-03-06T19:21:25Z jcowan: K also supports heterogeneous arrays, whereas classical APL does not
2018-03-06T19:21:42Z wasamasa: ah, that might be useful to fake hash tables
2018-03-06T19:21:52Z jcowan: heterogeneous vectors in K serve the same purposes as lists in Lisps
2018-03-06T19:21:58Z wasamasa: and structs
2018-03-06T19:22:06Z jcowan: Indeed they do
2018-03-06T19:22:28Z jcowan: K has a builtin called dictionaries, but they are more a-lists than hashtables, at least unless they get too big
2018-03-06T19:25:32Z jcowan: Also K has proper ifs and whiles, though their use is discouraged because they involve loops in the (slow) interpreter rather than in C routines implementing map operations
2018-03-06T19:26:15Z wasamasa: of course
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2018-03-06T21:16:30Z ecraven: wasamasa: look at "Mastering Dyalog", it has many string examples too
2018-03-06T21:16:56Z wasamasa: I gave it a quick look, but it scared me off
2018-03-06T21:20:51Z ecraven: I've started multiple times, and I really think it's worth learning at least the basics of APL... in some ways, I can see how it alters your entire perception of how programming can work
2018-03-06T21:21:20Z ecraven: I started doing those programming advent calendar problems in APL, but stopped when they got too complex for my very limited APL-fu ;)
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2018-03-07T01:37:38Z Joe___: im trying to see if a tree should be balance in scheme
2018-03-07T01:38:08Z Joe___: and if it should be rotated to the left to return one or to the right to return -1
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2018-03-07T03:28:37Z mazeto: Hello dudes and dudettes.
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2018-03-07T04:50:35Z smokeink: hi
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2018-03-07T12:56:50Z siraben: Anyone here familiar with logic programming or MiniKanren `http://minikanren.org/'?
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2018-03-07T14:11:51Z qu1j0t3: somewhat.
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2018-03-07T14:44:45Z gwatt: siraben: what's your question?
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2018-03-07T17:02:19Z jcowan: I've been thinking about Scheme's built-in predicates and which ones make sense as type classifiers
2018-03-07T17:03:05Z jcowan: A type predicate should be a pure functional procedure of one argument that returns #t or #f
2018-03-07T17:03:19Z jcowan: And it should also accept any object as its argument.
2018-03-07T17:04:08Z jcowan: Of the 40 procedures that satisfy the first condition, the following do *not* accept any object:
2018-03-07T17:04:50Z jcowan: exact? inexact? exact-integer? finite? infinite? nan? zero? positive? negative? odd? even? and the char-* classifiers
2018-03-07T17:05:21Z jcowan: The question is whether these should be redefined by a generic-function package to accept arbitrary objects
2018-03-07T17:05:45Z jcowan: so whereas exact? in r7rs-base accepts only numbers, this version of exact? would return #f on non-numbers
2018-03-07T17:05:55Z jcowan: thus allowing it to be called blindly
2018-03-07T17:07:06Z jcowan: alternatively, we could leave that up to the user, on the assumption that a type ExactNumber is not very useful
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2018-03-07T17:37:15Z ecraven: jcowan: personally, I'd advocate for that change. it should not have any negative performance effects, as the check for number? etc. is needed anyway
2018-03-07T17:37:17Z gwatt: jcowan: I'm ambivalent to most of those predicates, but I think that exact-integer is useful as a type since it's used so much for indexing, counting
2018-03-07T17:40:24Z gwatt: I think that maybe some of the numeric predicates don't make sense to accept any value.
2018-03-07T17:42:39Z ecraven: gwatt: I think I might even argue that *every* predicate should be a total function
2018-03-07T17:43:46Z vyzo: you still need the fast predicate function that doesn't check both number and type of number
2018-03-07T17:43:54Z vyzo: it gives you more resolution in type-based dispatch
2018-03-07T17:44:11Z vyzo: you _should_ be allowed to optimize the dispatch of numbers based on the secondary predicates
2018-03-07T17:44:14Z ecraven: vyzo: shouldn't the compiler be able to check which predicates it knows are true or false?
2018-03-07T17:44:15Z vyzo: so please don't change them!
2018-03-07T17:44:33Z vyzo: well, the compiler may or may not be able to fuse the number? in front
2018-03-07T17:44:54Z vyzo: but you as a programmer should have access to the fast predicates so that you can tell the compiler i know it's a number
2018-03-07T17:45:09Z vyzo: and then you can (declare (not safe)) and eliminate the check
2018-03-07T17:45:13Z ecraven: but shouldn't that be done in some other way than by calling that function?
2018-03-07T17:45:19Z ecraven: (declare (number? n)) or whatever?
2018-03-07T17:45:29Z vyzo: uhm, that assumes a type system in the compiler
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2018-03-07T17:45:35Z vyzo: almost no scheme compiler has that
2018-03-07T17:46:34Z gwatt: I'm not sure how that's different from a compiler assuming that "thing" is a number by way of (exact? thing)
2018-03-07T17:46:49Z ecraven: well, if exact? is (and (number? x) ...) and the compiler knows that number? is true, it can eliminate that without a full type system
2018-03-07T17:47:07Z ecraven: also, what gwatt said ;D
2018-03-07T17:47:27Z vyzo: you expect the compiler to be a little too smart sometimes :)
2018-03-07T17:47:40Z vyzo: the extra type resolution is useful for not so smart compilers
2018-03-07T17:47:41Z ecraven: I'd just be really happy if I could use *any* predicate with the generic dispatch without thinking about whether it is actually total or just partial
2018-03-07T17:47:59Z vyzo: don't get me wrong, a predicate that checks both number? and exact-integer? _is_ useful
2018-03-07T17:48:03Z vyzo: i am not arguing against it
2018-03-07T17:48:13Z vyzo: all i am saying is please don't make the specialized predicated disappear
2018-03-07T17:48:15Z vyzo: they are useful!
2018-03-07T17:49:00Z gwatt: It sounds like jcowan is considering an extension with safe predicates and the base r7rs would still contain unsafe predicates
2018-03-07T17:49:10Z ecraven: well, they are only useful if your compiler isn't "good enough". personally I find that argument hard, because a lot of non-ideal ideas lie that way :-/
2018-03-07T17:49:38Z ecraven: you would get the total predicates if you (import (generic-dispatch predicates)) or something like it, is how I understood jcowan
2018-03-07T17:49:39Z vyzo: the sufficiently smart compiler; a mythical beast
2018-03-07T17:49:47Z ecraven: vyzo: hehe, indeed
2018-03-07T17:49:47Z vyzo: that's probably fine
2018-03-07T17:50:00Z gwatt: http://wiki.c2.com/?SufficientlySmartCompiler
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2018-03-07T18:41:14Z mrm: "There's a fine line between 'optimization' and 'not being stupid'." --dybvig
2018-03-07T18:42:19Z qu1j0t3: exactly
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2018-03-07T22:09:14Z jcowan: gwatt: That is what I mean.  It's not so much that the standard predicates are unsafe as that you can't call them on arbitrary objects.
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2018-03-07T22:24:18Z gwatt: jcowan: aside, looking at the r7rs spec, the numerical predicates don't seem required to throw exceptions
2018-03-07T22:25:19Z gwatt: It's certainly not mentioned in the examples
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2018-03-07T23:01:26Z jcowan: gwatt: No, they aren't required to, "it is an error" (i.e. undefined behavior) to pass a non-number to them
2018-03-07T23:01:47Z jcowan: Now the complex/real/rational/integer? predicates aren't like that, they accept any object
2018-03-07T23:02:20Z jcowan: So (even 'x) can return #t, or #f, or something else, or throw an error, or make demons fly out of your nose
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2018-03-07T23:29:00Z jonh: close
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2018-03-08T01:20:50Z siraben: Anyone familiar with logic programming in Scheme?
2018-03-08T01:21:14Z siraben: see `http://minikanren.org/'
2018-03-08T01:24:25Z mrm: Well, considering it has a website, at least one person is probably familiar with it.
2018-03-08T01:32:36Z qu1j0t3: siraben: somewhat. What is your question
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2018-03-08T01:34:49Z qu1j0t3: siraben: somewhat. What is your question
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2018-03-08T01:40:22Z gwatt: qu1j0t3: the same person asked that question about 12 hours ago without elaboration. I think it's a lost cause.
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2018-03-08T01:45:56Z qu1j0t3: yeah i know.
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2018-03-08T22:53:17Z ecraven: there's also microkanren ;)
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2018-03-08T23:05:28Z jcowan: it's odd that vanilla mK is not available at minikanren.org
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2018-03-08T23:13:30Z qu1j0t3: there's very many versions
2018-03-08T23:13:42Z qu1j0t3: "distributions" if you will
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2018-03-08T23:20:46Z jcowan: yes, each of which has its own bells and whistles, but where is the common core?
2018-03-08T23:22:40Z amz3: jcowan: minikanren or microkanren?
2018-03-08T23:22:47Z jcowan: mini
2018-03-08T23:22:57Z jcowan: I am told that micro is too micro for usability
2018-03-08T23:23:33Z amz3: not sure I am not a microkanren expert
2018-03-08T23:23:39Z amz3: or kanren
2018-03-08T23:23:43Z amz3: I only used kanren
2018-03-08T23:23:58Z amz3: jcowan: afaik this is a vanilla minikanren https://github.com/ijp/minikanren
2018-03-08T23:24:32Z amz3: but also, afaik that version of minikanren is not much more powerful that microkanren
2018-03-08T23:24:39Z jcowan: right
2018-03-08T23:24:49Z jcowan: also it uses the old Reasoned Schemer engine
2018-03-08T23:24:51Z amz3: the thing people might have said you is that there is many extensions to mini/micro kanren
2018-03-08T23:25:18Z amz3: and also optimization
2018-03-08T23:25:46Z amz3: like clojure logic is based on microkanren
2018-03-08T23:25:58Z amz3: that's what I was said
2018-03-08T23:26:20Z amz3: sorry, I mean to say I only use microkanren
2018-03-08T23:27:19Z jcowan: looks like the whole thing is a tangled mess of half-working codes
2018-03-08T23:28:39Z amz3: I used to query my triple store using microkanren which was a nice hack, but I have implemented my own pattern matching algorithm that try to be smart regarding which patterns to bind first
2018-03-08T23:28:44Z amz3: no no it works
2018-03-08T23:29:34Z amz3: Here is the microkanren I use in my database work
2018-03-08T23:29:35Z gwatt: The most prolific minikanrener is Will Byrd, who has it here: https://github.com/webyrd/miniKanren-with-symbolic-constraints
2018-03-08T23:29:36Z amz3: https://framagit.org/a-guile-mind/guile-wiredtiger/blob/master/microkanren.scm
2018-03-08T23:30:53Z gwatt: He has an interesting usage of minikanren here: https://github.com/webyrd/Barliman
2018-03-08T23:31:46Z jcowan: very nice indeed
2018-03-08T23:32:06Z jcowan: I note a comment in one of the repos:  "Will can never find the minikanren he wants"
2018-03-08T23:32:13Z jcowan: and if he can't, how can I
2018-03-08T23:32:16Z jcowan: ?
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2018-03-08T23:34:47Z gwatt: Yeah, that is a feature of Will
2018-03-08T23:35:01Z qu1j0t3: what part of "research project" don't you get yet :-)
2018-03-08T23:35:09Z qu1j0t3:   jcowan | I am told that micro is too micro for usability  // Yes.
2018-03-08T23:35:39Z qu1j0t3: it's really just a cute demo of some primitives.
2018-03-08T23:38:55Z jcowan: https://github.com/jasonhemann/microKanren-DLS-16/ looks like a clean implementation provided define-syntax-rule is converted to define-syntax/syntax-rules
2018-03-08T23:39:26Z jcowan: and it is based on, and exposes, uK
2018-03-08T23:39:49Z gwatt: Is define-syntax-rule a racket thing?
2018-03-08T23:40:47Z jcowan: yes
2018-03-08T23:40:58Z jcowan: they seem to prefer it when there is only one pattern
2018-03-08T23:41:11Z gwatt: yeah, it seems convenient
2018-03-08T23:41:15Z jcowan: (define-syntax rule pattern template)
2018-03-08T23:43:42Z gwatt: that should be pretty simple to define or convert
2018-03-08T23:43:49Z amz3: guile has define-syntax-rule too, it's easy to implement on top define-syntax/syntax-rules
2018-03-08T23:44:35Z gwatt: https://github.com/racket/racket7/blob/master/racket/src/cs/rumble/syntax-rule.ss
2018-03-08T23:46:09Z amz3: see ^^
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2018-03-09T11:18:15Z faLUCE: hello:  (map (lambda (x) .... ) mylist)   <---- how can I start the iteration from element 2, instead from the first element?
2018-03-09T11:19:33Z vyzo: (map fun (cdr mylist))
2018-03-09T11:20:48Z faLUCE: thnks
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2018-03-09T12:32:01Z faLUCE: How can I put a new element at the beginning of a list? I tried:   (let ((list1 '(2 3 4))) (begin (append list1 1) (display list1)))    but doesn't do that
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2018-03-09T12:33:32Z manumanumanu: faLUCE: (cons 1 list1)
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2018-03-09T12:37:29Z Kalamngy_771`: (s) Don’t Think About It (s)
2018-03-09T12:37:29Z faLUCE: thnks manumanumanu
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2018-03-09T13:20:21Z ski: rudybot: eval (let ((list-0 (list 3 5 7))) (cons 2 list-0))
2018-03-09T13:20:24Z rudybot: ski: your scheme sandbox is ready
2018-03-09T13:20:24Z rudybot: ski: ; Value: '(2 3 5 7)
2018-03-09T13:20:31Z ski: rudybot: eval (let ((list-0 (list 3 5 7))) (append (list 2) list-0))
2018-03-09T13:20:32Z rudybot: ski: ; Value: '(2 3 5 7)
2018-03-09T13:21:27Z ski: rudybot: eval (let* ((list-0 (list 3 5 7)) (list-1 (cons 2 list-0)) (list-2 (reverse list-1))) (list list-0 list-1 list-2))
2018-03-09T13:21:27Z rudybot: ski: ; Value: '((3 5 7) (2 3 5 7) (7 5 3 2))
2018-03-09T13:22:24Z ski: faLUCE : `append' (as well as `cons') produces a new list, it doesn't change the list(s) that is/are given. the old one is still there, after the operation
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2018-03-09T13:24:21Z ski: (`let*' does "sequential binding" of local variables, so that the definition of one can use the previous ones. `let' doesn't, does "collateral binding" (or "parallel", though it doesn't imply evaluating in parallel, on separate cores), where none of the bindings see the other ones that are made at the same time)
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2018-03-09T13:55:07Z siraben: eval ((lambda (x) (x x)) (lambda (x) (x x)))
2018-03-09T13:55:24Z siraben: eval (+ 1 2)
2018-03-09T13:55:44Z siraben: How do I use rudybot?
2018-03-09T13:56:38Z siraben: rudybot: eval (+ 1 2)
2018-03-09T13:56:40Z rudybot: siraben: your sandbox is ready
2018-03-09T13:56:41Z rudybot: siraben: ; Value: 3
2018-03-09T13:56:44Z siraben: There we go
2018-03-09T13:56:50Z siraben: rudybot: eval ((lambda (x) (x x)) (lambda (x) (x x)))
2018-03-09T13:56:54Z siraben: Rip
2018-03-09T13:57:00Z rudybot: siraben: error: with-limit: out of time
2018-03-09T14:16:44Z ski: rudybot: eval ((call/cc call/cc) (call/cc call/cc))
2018-03-09T14:16:55Z rudybot: ski: error: with-limit: out of time
2018-03-09T14:17:36Z ski: rudybot: do you remember sorbet?
2018-03-09T14:17:38Z rudybot: ski: please resuscitate sorbet while you're at it
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2018-03-09T14:31:08Z faLUCE: hello, how can I set  myVar, which is boolean type to  the result of condition1 AND condition2?    I tried that, but it seems wrong ---->  (set! myVar   (and (condition1) (condition2))  )
2018-03-09T14:31:41Z ski: how about `define' or `let' ?
2018-03-09T14:32:30Z ski: rudybot: eval (let ((my-var (and (> 2 1) (< 3 4)))) my-var)
2018-03-09T14:32:30Z rudybot: ski: ; Value: #t
2018-03-09T14:32:38Z ski: rudybot: eval my-var
2018-03-09T14:32:38Z rudybot: ski: error: my-var: undefined; <NEWLINE>  cannot reference an identifier before its definition <NEWLINE>   in module: 'program
2018-03-09T14:32:55Z ski: rudybot: eval (define my-var (and (> 2 1) (< 3 4)))
2018-03-09T14:32:55Z rudybot: ski: Done.
2018-03-09T14:32:56Z ski: rudybot: eval my-var
2018-03-09T14:32:57Z rudybot: ski: ; Value: #t
2018-03-09T14:33:22Z ski: you can put a `define' form inside the body of a `let' or `lambda', which makes it a local definition
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2018-03-09T14:34:58Z faLUCE: ski: I tried with    (define foo (and (> 1 2) (> 1 2))), inside a let scope
2018-03-09T14:35:08Z faLUCE: but it doesn't compile
2018-03-09T14:35:31Z gwatt: faLUCE: what are you trying to do?
2018-03-09T14:35:49Z vyzo: perhaps you should read a little bit about scheme first?
2018-03-09T14:36:01Z vyzo: you are asking some very basic questions that indicate that you haven't done your homework
2018-03-09T14:36:40Z faLUCE: vyzo: you are right, but I have to do some little modifications with scheme to lilypond... learning scheme would be overkill
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2018-03-09T14:38:35Z gwatt: faLUCE: you keep saying that.
2018-03-09T14:39:14Z gwatt: but then you have to spend your time (and others') asking pretty simple questions
2018-03-09T14:39:39Z ski: faLUCE : did you try to put the `(define ...)' in the `<body>' part or the `<bindings>' part of `(let (<bindings>) <body>)' ?
2018-03-09T14:41:09Z ski: rudybot: eval (let ((a 2) (b 3)) (define foo (and (> a 1) (> 2 b))) (list a b foo))
2018-03-09T14:41:09Z rudybot: ski: ; Value: '(2 3 #f)
2018-03-09T14:41:15Z faLUCE: tnx
2018-03-09T14:41:46Z ski: rudybot: eval (let ((a 2) (b 3) (foo (and (> a 1) (> 2 b)))) (list a b foo))  ; the same thing, without a `define'
2018-03-09T14:41:47Z rudybot: ski: error: a: undefined; <NEWLINE>  cannot reference an identifier before its definition <NEWLINE>   in module: 'program
2018-03-09T14:42:18Z ski: oh, right, i need sequential binding for `foo' to be able to reference `a' and `b' here, otherwise they're introduced simultaneously, since they're in the same `let'
2018-03-09T14:42:27Z ski: rudybot: eval (let* ((a 2) (b 3) (foo (and (> a 1) (> 2 b)))) (list a b foo))  ; the same thing, without a `define'
2018-03-09T14:42:27Z rudybot: ski: ; Value: '(2 3 #f)
2018-03-09T14:42:49Z ski: rudybot: eval (let* ((a 2) (b 3)) (let ((foo (and (> a 1) (> 2 b)))) (list a b foo)))  ; the same thing, without a `define', using nested `let's instead
2018-03-09T14:42:49Z rudybot: ski: ; Value: '(2 3 #f)
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2018-03-10T22:49:17Z faLUCE: hello.  while I iterate myList:    (map (lambda (x)  ..... ) myList)     <---- how can I remove x if it is equal to "foo" ?
2018-03-10T22:49:27Z faLUCE: (remove from the list)
2018-03-10T22:50:32Z daviid: faLUCE: use filter-map instead, srfi-1
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2018-03-10T22:50:56Z faLUCE: daviid: I have to iterate
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2018-03-10T22:53:08Z wasamasa: write your own functions
2018-03-10T22:53:17Z wasamasa: also, stick to the functional style
2018-03-10T22:53:50Z wasamasa: this isn't your typical language where you deal with growable arrays, linked lists are your preferred data structure
2018-03-10T22:55:31Z wasamasa: create new lists all the time
2018-03-10T23:00:51Z faLUCE: (set! mylist (remq! x mylist))   <--- what about that?
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2018-03-10T23:04:52Z amz3: faLUCE: exclamation mark procedures mutate the input, they should be considered for advanced users
2018-03-10T23:05:50Z wasamasa: faLUCE: not functional
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2018-03-10T23:14:41Z pjb:  (map (lambda (x) …) (remove 'foo myList))
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2018-03-10T23:24:14Z dandruff_: Is there an up-to-date window manager in Scheme?
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2018-03-10T23:31:15Z wasamasa: the only thing that's for certain is unreasonable people
2018-03-10T23:31:27Z wasamasa: what does "up-to-date" even mean?
2018-03-10T23:31:51Z pjb: the programmer came back from the loo, and just committed his last changes! Right now!
2018-03-10T23:32:03Z wasamasa: it's kind of funny to see that mentioned in the context of an 80ies protocol
2018-03-10T23:32:08Z pjb: Oops, too late, it was five minutes ago, not up-to-date anymore.
2018-03-10T23:34:20Z dandruff_: "Up to date" means it can be compiled and run out-of-the-box with a working scheme dialect. guile-wm looks like a candidate.
2018-03-10T23:34:29Z wasamasa: funny definition, that
2018-03-10T23:34:58Z wasamasa: all it takes to break down is an unusual scheme setup on your computer
2018-03-10T23:36:06Z wasamasa: https://github.com/mario-goulart/nsfwm
2018-03-10T23:37:49Z dandruff_: thanks!
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2018-03-10T23:58:46Z guitarNerd: I'd like to learn scheme, what's a good document to learn from?
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2018-03-11T00:01:45Z X-Scale: guitarNerd: https://mitpress.mit.edu/sicp/full-text/book/book.html
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2018-03-11T00:04:00Z guitarNerd: Can whoever sent that document please send it again? I disconnected...
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2018-03-11T02:35:22Z qu1j0t3:    X-Scale | guitarNerd: https://mitpress.mit.edu/sicp/full-text/book/book.html  // However, this isn;t a good book to learn Scheme from. It doesn't teach Scheme. Lots of books do, including "Programming in Scheme", Abelson and Eisenberg which I can recommend
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2018-03-11T03:11:12Z siraben: X-Scale: I'd recommend the new PDF version https://github.com/sarabander/sicp-pdf
2018-03-11T03:11:38Z siraben: The SICP lectures are at must watch https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Op3QLzMgSY&list=PLE18841CABEA24090
2018-03-11T03:11:54Z siraben: Even in the first lecture your eyes are opened
2018-03-11T03:12:55Z siraben: Contrary to qu1j0t3 I think it's a good introduction to Scheme programming
2018-03-11T03:13:08Z siraben: Although you have to learn macros, quasiquotation and so on yourself
2018-03-11T03:13:22Z siraben: X-Scale: Have you done functional programming before?
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2018-03-11T03:20:20Z qu1j0t3: it is not a good introduction to Scheme programming.
2018-03-11T03:20:33Z qu1j0t3: but there are plenty of books that are. it doesn't even try to teach scheme.
2018-03-11T03:21:04Z siraben: qu1j0t3: How so?
2018-03-11T03:21:11Z qu1j0t3: what have you compared it to?
2018-03-11T03:21:22Z siraben: I don't have a comparison
2018-03-11T03:21:26Z qu1j0t3: i see.
2018-03-11T03:21:27Z siraben: Can you suggest some?
2018-03-11T03:21:31Z siraben: I just finished SICP
2018-03-11T03:21:33Z qu1j0t3: i did, above
2018-03-11T03:21:37Z siraben: Ok thanks
2018-03-11T03:21:45Z siraben: It wasn't trivial to work through several exercises
2018-03-11T03:22:04Z siraben: Huffman encoding, trees, message passing, register machines, meta circular evaluator, compilers
2018-03-11T03:22:04Z qu1j0t3: sicp USES scheme to teach a bunch of other things. it's assumes some level of scheme knowledge and will be confusing to a scheme beginner.
2018-03-11T03:22:29Z siraben: Oh if you're just starting out programming or using scheme I would imagine it's hard
2018-03-11T03:22:33Z qu1j0t3: yes.
2018-03-11T03:22:35Z qu1j0t3: that's all i'm saying.
2018-03-11T03:22:37Z siraben: Because the first lecture already goes into recursion
2018-03-11T03:22:40Z siraben: Without any warning lol
2018-03-11T03:22:55Z qu1j0t3: the book i recommended above is good. I used it and a few others when i was learning scheme.
2018-03-11T03:22:58Z siraben: What about
2018-03-11T03:22:58Z siraben: http://www.paulgraham.com/rootsoflisp.html
2018-03-11T03:23:08Z siraben: The 12 page guide to Lisp's 7 commands?
2018-03-11T03:23:24Z siraben: It's not exactly Scheme, but it's lispy enough to be trivial to move to Scheme
2018-03-11T03:23:30Z qu1j0t3: it really depends what you want to learn
2018-03-11T03:23:51Z siraben: What do you think of the Reasoned Schemer?
2018-03-11T03:23:57Z siraben: Or the Little Lisper series
2018-03-11T03:24:15Z qu1j0t3: the style doesn't do it for me, but some people like it
2018-03-11T03:24:21Z siraben: Have you read it?
2018-03-11T03:24:27Z siraben: I'm looking to buy it next
2018-03-11T03:24:33Z qu1j0t3: i own some of them, including The Reasoned Schemer.
2018-03-11T03:24:40Z siraben: So, logic programming?
2018-03-11T03:24:44Z qu1j0t3: well, sort of.
2018-03-11T03:24:49Z qu1j0t3: minikanren
2018-03-11T03:24:51Z siraben: Ah
2018-03-11T03:24:54Z siraben: I read the microkanren paper
2018-03-11T03:25:05Z qu1j0t3: which i consider a research project. Prolog is more "want to do it NOW" logic programming
2018-03-11T03:25:06Z siraben: Not fully grasped it yet
2018-03-11T03:25:15Z siraben: Logic programming in general
2018-03-11T03:25:28Z qu1j0t3: yeah The REasoned Schemer will not teach anything about logic programming.
2018-03-11T03:25:32Z siraben: It's like when I started with Haskell two years ago, I didn't understand functional programming and it was hard af
2018-03-11T03:25:39Z siraben: It will each minikanren?
2018-03-11T03:25:40Z siraben: teach*
2018-03-11T03:25:42Z qu1j0t3: sort of
2018-03-11T03:25:55Z qu1j0t3: in its own way it walks you through minikanren syntax.
2018-03-11T03:26:10Z siraben: Well minikanren is embedded in Scheme though
2018-03-11T03:26:19Z qu1j0t3: yes, it is, but it won't teach you scheme either.
2018-03-11T03:26:23Z qu1j0t3: it's assumed you already know scheme.
2018-03-11T03:26:34Z qu1j0t3: and it also doesn't teach anything about logic programming. for that you'll need an actual textbook.
2018-03-11T03:26:51Z siraben: What do you recommend? Prolog?
2018-03-11T03:27:01Z siraben: SICP attempted to teach logic programming but it wasn't in depth
2018-03-11T03:27:04Z qu1j0t3: depends what you want to learn or do? but there are very good prolog books.
2018-03-11T03:27:25Z qu1j0t3: PAIP is a really nice intersection of Lisp, Scheme and Prolog
2018-03-11T03:27:30Z qu1j0t3: (Norvig)
2018-03-11T03:27:43Z qu1j0t3: and it was just released publicly, this month basically
2018-03-11T03:27:51Z siraben: Sounds like an amazing combination
2018-03-11T03:27:54Z qu1j0t3: re-released on github by Peter Norvig
2018-03-11T03:27:58Z qu1j0t3: it is an amazing book.
2018-03-11T03:28:02Z siraben: Oh it's in a PDF file too
2018-03-11T03:28:05Z siraben: https://github.com/norvig/paip-lisp
2018-03-11T03:28:12Z siraben: 12 days ago
2018-03-11T03:28:23Z qu1j0t3: yeah eventually there will be electronic versions, interactive notebook sort of things, i think
2018-03-11T03:28:27Z siraben: sounds amazing
2018-03-11T03:28:29Z qu1j0t3: it's a real AI classic
2018-03-11T03:28:40Z siraben: It's dense
2018-03-11T03:28:42Z siraben: 1000 pages
2018-03-11T03:28:55Z siraben: Wow
2018-03-11T03:28:57Z qu1j0t3: has exercises, and it's really fairly gentle (might explain why it's so large)
2018-03-11T03:29:05Z qu1j0t3: Norvig is a good teacher
2018-03-11T03:29:11Z siraben: Did you finish it?
2018-03-11T03:29:16Z siraben: What did you get out of it?
2018-03-11T03:29:38Z qu1j0t3: i finished it without doing the exercises, but i don't recommend doing that lol
2018-03-11T03:29:52Z siraben: Lol I should finish the SICP exercises first
2018-03-11T03:29:58Z qu1j0t3: SICP is hard, I agree
2018-03-11T03:30:06Z qu1j0t3: i am still somewhere in Chapter 2.
2018-03-11T03:30:13Z siraben: I do have programming experience, but wasn't expecting it to be /that/ hard
2018-03-11T03:30:17Z siraben: SICP I mean
2018-03-11T03:30:20Z qu1j0t3: right
2018-03-11T03:30:25Z siraben: Do you watch the lectures?
2018-03-11T03:30:27Z qu1j0t3: a lot of people find exactly that.
2018-03-11T03:30:31Z qu1j0t3: no
2018-03-11T03:30:46Z siraben: Hmm I did
2018-03-11T03:30:51Z siraben: All of them
2018-03-11T03:31:01Z qu1j0t3: it's on the backburner really, i'm studying analog electronics these days
2018-03-11T03:31:07Z siraben: I see
2018-03-11T03:31:21Z siraben: Analog electronics? So making registers, ALUs, buses and so on?
2018-03-11T03:31:28Z qu1j0t3: that'd be digital electronics :)
2018-03-11T03:31:37Z qu1j0t3: analog is, resistors, capacitors, transistors and so on
2018-03-11T03:31:42Z siraben: Ah
2018-03-11T03:31:45Z siraben: Lower level of abstraction
2018-03-11T03:31:58Z qu1j0t3: yeah. i needed a break from software, apparently.
2018-03-11T03:32:22Z siraben: I have should get into digital electronics more
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2018-03-11T03:32:38Z siraben: After dealing with topics that give me intense headaches
2018-03-11T03:32:49Z siraben: In programming in mean, it gets deep fast
2018-03-11T03:33:07Z siraben: I mean*
2018-03-11T03:33:26Z qu1j0t3: haha yes. i was also studying Haskell. that too is on the backburner, i guess.
2018-03-11T03:33:30Z siraben: What's nice about dealing with hardware?
2018-03-11T03:34:21Z qu1j0t3: going from digital to analog is a really different way of thinking. imagine imperative <-> functional.
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2018-03-11T03:34:57Z qu1j0t3: hard to express what i like about it. i think it's just invigorating to start over as a beginner in a field.
2018-03-11T03:35:05Z siraben: I program in C as well, and the way of thinking between that and of Scheme (and other FP languages) is wild
2018-03-11T03:35:21Z qu1j0t3: having small problems that seem large, then experiencing the reward of solving them.
2018-03-11T03:35:26Z siraben: Functional programming loses some of its novelty after a bit
2018-03-11T03:35:30Z siraben: Small problems, such as?
2018-03-11T03:35:37Z qu1j0t3: i'm still at the "small problems seem hard" stage of analog, but i'm making progress i think.
2018-03-11T03:35:58Z siraben: Well it's like learning to program
2018-03-11T03:36:04Z qu1j0t3: oh, there are lots of small problems, like "how do i switch that signal," "how do i generate that signal" and so on
2018-03-11T03:36:17Z siraben: Seems like magic to me
2018-03-11T03:36:18Z qu1j0t3: "how can i filter this to achieve that"
2018-03-11T03:36:26Z qu1j0t3: well, right, at first it really does
2018-03-11T03:36:41Z siraben: The most complex digital electronics I did so far was implementing an 8-bit counter
2018-03-11T03:36:44Z siraben: On a logic simulator
2018-03-11T03:36:45Z qu1j0t3: when i was a kid i was fascinated by it and it remained magic
2018-03-11T03:37:02Z qu1j0t3: so it's kind of fun to slowly turn it from magic to some level of understanding
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2018-03-11T03:37:09Z siraben: But I had to build up from NAND logic to JK Flip Flops to Slave/Master and Clock parts
2018-03-11T03:37:16Z qu1j0t3: that's still quite a journey
2018-03-11T03:37:26Z siraben: Fascinated by what?
2018-03-11T03:37:41Z qu1j0t3: and digital is fun too. i just really want to understand more of analog and not leave it "magic"
2018-03-11T03:37:46Z qu1j0t3: siraben: electronics
2018-03-11T03:37:53Z siraben: It was satisfying to watch the clock count up in binary
2018-03-11T03:37:55Z siraben: I see
2018-03-11T03:38:11Z siraben: It's perhaps the most "imperative" programming you can get
2018-03-11T03:38:20Z qu1j0t3: e.g. i have a project that involves solving all kinds of problems and can be scaled as far as i like, which is generating analog graphics for electrostatic scopes/CRTs
2018-03-11T03:38:51Z qu1j0t3: you can do this at all levels of sophistication and you can set all kinds of benchmarks which are more or less difficult to achieve. and that drives learning the needed concepts.
2018-03-11T03:38:52Z siraben: I've seen a lissajous curve drawing a 3D scene on an oscilloscope
2018-03-11T03:39:00Z siraben: I see
2018-03-11T03:39:04Z qu1j0t3: like somebody might build a "game engine" in order to learn programming
2018-03-11T03:39:23Z siraben: Right, I recall understanding "Ok, how do I build a counter? Then how do I do this etc."
2018-03-11T03:39:27Z siraben: It's like a dependency graph
2018-03-11T03:39:34Z siraben: To know this thing you need to know the sub-things
2018-03-11T03:39:46Z qu1j0t3: so this project or goal has been really useful to figure out what to do next. of course there are long periods of headscratching and "this is all too hard" as well lol but that's normal in anything
2018-03-11T03:39:49Z siraben: I wrote a Scheme interpreter in C to understand Scheme
2018-03-11T03:39:51Z siraben: Better*
2018-03-11T03:40:02Z qu1j0t3: yeah, that's a decent project
2018-03-11T03:40:03Z siraben: You deal with signal processing as well?
2018-03-11T03:40:11Z qu1j0t3: only a little
2018-03-11T03:40:19Z qu1j0t3: where it's tangential to what i'm doing
2018-03-11T03:40:21Z siraben: Because of the quirks in C, the string parsing was the most complicated
2018-03-11T03:40:31Z siraben: I see
2018-03-11T03:40:48Z siraben: I'm trying to go low level with programming now, after dealing with very high level things
2018-03-11T03:40:59Z siraben: So filesystems, drivers and kernels
2018-03-11T03:41:43Z siraben: Ben Eater's 8 bit computer inspired me to read more about digital electronics: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HyznrdDSSGM&list=PLowKtXNTBypGqImE405J2565dvjafglHU
2018-03-11T03:42:05Z siraben: qu1j0t3: What do you eventually plan to achieve with analog electronics?
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2018-03-11T03:42:44Z qu1j0t3: well, that, firstly. but a permanent goal would be the ability to repair things.
2018-03-11T03:42:50Z qu1j0t3: e.g. power supplies, which crops up all the time.
2018-03-11T03:43:04Z qu1j0t3: and design things i need.
2018-03-11T03:43:29Z qu1j0t3: in some cases interfacing to computers. e.g. my graphics are generated by analog means but driven by digital control.
2018-03-11T03:43:47Z qu1j0t3: it's nice to just be able to build things without having to ask somebody else.
2018-03-11T03:44:13Z qu1j0t3: or fix.
2018-03-11T03:45:08Z siraben: Actually sounds like good skills to have
2018-03-11T03:45:30Z qu1j0t3: yeah i think i got frustrated at just not having them
2018-03-11T03:45:34Z siraben: I don't know anything about analog, or even how computers work internally so when I desktop died I brought it to my friend
2018-03-11T03:45:41Z siraben: my desktop*
2018-03-11T03:45:43Z qu1j0t3: i'm also involved in retrocomputing, so building adapters and repairing things is kind of part of it
2018-03-11T03:46:02Z siraben: Reminds me of minecraft
2018-03-11T03:46:07Z siraben: The building things part
2018-03-11T03:46:16Z siraben: With redstone
2018-03-11T03:46:57Z qu1j0t3: i think there's a good analogy with software, except electronics is more physical and less virtual. sure you can't see the electrons, but you're using, specifying physical parts.
2018-03-11T03:47:16Z qu1j0t3: and the principles of design work the same everywhere.
2018-03-11T03:47:20Z siraben: I'm pretty clumsy lol
2018-03-11T03:47:42Z siraben: The hardware stuff I've done were in science lab experiments
2018-03-11T03:47:49Z siraben: "Hardware" as in hands on
2018-03-11T03:48:09Z siraben: So with analog, you build things from smaller parts and abstract higher and higher?
2018-03-11T03:48:37Z qu1j0t3: yeah, that's a thing, for sure.
2018-03-11T03:48:49Z qu1j0t3: i mean analog systems can be astonishingly complex.
2018-03-11T03:48:50Z siraben: I once made a darkness sensor
2018-03-11T03:48:54Z qu1j0t3: and they still have to be designed by people
2018-03-11T03:48:55Z siraben: But that was just soldering
2018-03-11T03:49:01Z qu1j0t3: so there has to be some compositionality.
2018-03-11T03:49:19Z siraben: What are some guides you have found useful?
2018-03-11T03:49:59Z qu1j0t3: actually, like Scheme or Haskell or whatever, I have never found a Single resource, so i really just grab from everywhere
2018-03-11T03:50:10Z qu1j0t3: and try to make it coherent for myself
2018-03-11T03:50:19Z siraben: I consider this person's blog to be amazing for digital/analog electronics: http://dmitry.gr/index.php?r=05.Projects&proj=18.%20Holiday%20Card
2018-03-11T03:50:28Z qu1j0t3: people say "The Art of Electronics" (Horowitz) is the classic
2018-03-11T03:50:34Z siraben: And his projects: http://dmitry.gr/index.php?r=05.Projects
2018-03-11T03:50:35Z siraben: I see
2018-03-11T03:50:41Z siraben: Does that cover digital or analog or both?
2018-03-11T03:50:48Z qu1j0t3: analog i think.
2018-03-11T03:51:03Z siraben: To be able to make physical things that you can show people, feels more productive than writing and deleting code
2018-03-11T03:51:29Z siraben: Because software seems so easy to people, they expect a behavior and they get it
2018-03-11T03:51:43Z siraben: easy to "non-programmers"
2018-03-11T03:51:46Z qu1j0t3: for digital, i'd recommend Niklaus Wirth, https://www.amazon.ca/Digital-Circuit-Computer-Science-Students/dp/354058577X -- some people might consider this dated, but it did a huge amount for my understanding of digital electronics
2018-03-11T03:52:18Z siraben: FPGA? That seems interesting
2018-03-11T03:52:33Z siraben: Are you taking a course in analog?
2018-03-11T03:52:35Z qu1j0t3: oh, like one tiny project i designed for myself was an IR control for a digital camera. so that i could use a remote shutter release.
2018-03-11T03:52:44Z siraben: Wow
2018-03-11T03:52:55Z siraben: Other people buy remote shutters which use apps/fancy stuff
2018-03-11T03:53:03Z qu1j0t3: another one was a bipolar power supply, but that was really just using datasheet circuits, so not much design.
2018-03-11T03:53:18Z siraben: How do you know when to do what?
2018-03-11T03:53:27Z qu1j0t3: i do it when i need it :)
2018-03-11T03:53:46Z qu1j0t3: so the motivation is already there and then it's like, okay, How is that done.
2018-03-11T03:53:49Z siraben: Does it make the world seem more malleable?
2018-03-11T03:53:55Z siraben: That's what I feel in programming
2018-03-11T03:54:04Z qu1j0t3: well, in that sense that i gain confidence
2018-03-11T03:54:05Z qu1j0t3: sure
2018-03-11T03:54:14Z siraben: Interesting
2018-03-11T03:54:37Z siraben: I have a Raspberry Pi, what can you do with it from an electronics perspective?
2018-03-11T03:54:45Z siraben: I use it as a server/computing device currently
2018-03-11T03:54:51Z qu1j0t3: this is the IR emitter controller fro Arduino https://imgur.com/czqENvw
2018-03-11T03:54:54Z qu1j0t3: from*
2018-03-11T03:55:05Z qu1j0t3: a very very basic transistor switch.
2018-03-11T03:55:09Z siraben: It has a bunch of pins... GPIO I think
2018-03-11T03:55:12Z siraben: The Pi
2018-03-11T03:55:14Z siraben: I see the photo
2018-03-11T03:55:15Z qu1j0t3: but you need these components if you're doingit from Arduino
2018-03-11T03:55:28Z siraben: Lol seems simple I wish I could understand
2018-03-11T03:55:35Z siraben: A transistor and two resistors
2018-03-11T03:55:37Z qu1j0t3: yeah, GPIO is extremely useful. I use GPIO to drive the vector graphics circuit.
2018-03-11T03:55:53Z siraben: Vector graphics circuit? Where does it lead to?
2018-03-11T03:56:04Z pjb: use it to drive the etch-a-sketch engine!
2018-03-11T03:56:04Z qu1j0t3: oscilloscope or X-Y display. but you could use a laser projector
2018-03-11T03:56:23Z qu1j0t3: i've got a long way to go yet with it. but that's the point.
2018-03-11T03:56:31Z pjb: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7eLycoDzdkI
2018-03-11T03:57:05Z pjb: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bmDz3yQFOWc
2018-03-11T03:57:26Z qu1j0t3: siraben: maybe like you, i find it hard to "invent" problems, so generally i'm solving things that i need or want
2018-03-11T03:57:58Z qu1j0t3: i needed that camera control because i wanted to copy a lot of documents on a copystand. etc.
2018-03-11T03:58:04Z siraben: qu1j0t3: Yeah, I just program to implement what I want
2018-03-11T03:58:21Z siraben: pjb: is that yours?
2018-03-11T03:58:29Z pjb: nope.
2018-03-11T03:59:38Z siraben: Mostly now I find that in Emacs
2018-03-11T03:59:47Z siraben: If it doesn't do what I want, I write it
2018-03-11T03:59:57Z siraben: Sadly not with digital/analog yet
2018-03-11T04:00:17Z siraben: I want to make a smarter house (auto lights, timers and so on) without the hassle of IOT
2018-03-11T04:00:19Z siraben: IoT
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2018-03-11T07:05:21Z wasamasa: siraben, qu1j0t3: did you guys just establish that there are no good books for learning scheme?
2018-03-11T07:14:28Z siraben: There are
2018-03-11T07:14:33Z siraben: depends on your level
2018-03-11T07:14:43Z siraben: What's your background with programming?
2018-03-11T07:15:28Z siraben: wasamasa: I recommend you start with http://www.paulgraham.com/rootsoflisp.html
2018-03-11T07:15:39Z siraben: Download the Postscript file at the bottom
2018-03-11T07:15:46Z siraben: And read those 12 pages
2018-03-11T07:16:04Z wasamasa: you're kidding, right
2018-03-11T07:16:09Z wasamasa: that's not a scheme tutorial
2018-03-11T07:16:18Z siraben: It's similar enough
2018-03-11T07:16:23Z wasamasa: also, nobody new to scheme would have a postscript reader
2018-03-11T07:16:34Z siraben: macOS can open it
2018-03-11T07:16:41Z wasamasa: it's not about me, it's about the occasional person asking for material to learn scheme
2018-03-11T07:16:53Z siraben: Oh sorry I misunderstood
2018-03-11T07:16:57Z wasamasa: there doesn't seem to be anything good at all
2018-03-11T07:17:02Z siraben: SICP?
2018-03-11T07:17:04Z siraben: Even that's hard
2018-03-11T07:17:08Z wasamasa: SICP is not about learning scheme
2018-03-11T07:17:11Z wasamasa: it says so itself
2018-03-11T07:17:19Z siraben: It's much broader
2018-03-11T07:17:23Z wasamasa: it uses scheme as vehicle to teach CS concepts
2018-03-11T07:17:26Z siraben: Right
2018-03-11T07:17:34Z siraben: But scheme is a small language
2018-03-11T07:17:44Z wasamasa: I've been in a study group aiming at completing it, most dropped out before finishing the first chapter
2018-03-11T07:17:48Z siraben: Why?
2018-03-11T07:17:56Z wasamasa: who knows
2018-03-11T07:18:10Z wasamasa: if I didn't know scheme well before, I'd probably done the same
2018-03-11T07:18:16Z siraben: Agreed
2018-03-11T07:18:26Z siraben: It isn't suitable for beginners
2018-03-11T07:18:29Z wasamasa: too many mathematical exercises
2018-03-11T07:18:39Z siraben: Is Scheme suitable for complete beginners to programming?
2018-03-11T07:18:44Z siraben: Or is something like Python better
2018-03-11T07:18:55Z wasamasa: I'll also not be able to say I completed them all because I skipped the one requiring a mathematical proof
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2018-03-11T07:20:13Z siraben: wasamasa: What do you think is a good book for scheme?
2018-03-11T07:20:26Z wasamasa: I've yet to encounter one
2018-03-11T07:20:46Z siraben: How did you learn Scheme?
2018-03-11T07:20:55Z wasamasa: I studied the R5RS standard
2018-03-11T07:21:00Z vyzo: SICP is good for learning the Scheme Way
2018-03-11T07:21:12Z wasamasa: coming from elisp made this easy enough, before that it never made much sense to me
2018-03-11T07:21:21Z siraben: I did SICP, but it's more about computation than Scheme
2018-03-11T07:21:28Z siraben: Scheme is a nice language to think in
2018-03-11T07:21:41Z siraben: I learned elisp after Scheme
2018-03-11T07:22:06Z wasamasa: HTDP is about learning by rote, The Little Schemer does recursion only, TSPL is more of a reference, TYSIFD is outdated
2018-03-11T07:22:10Z wasamasa: what other books are there?
2018-03-11T07:22:19Z siraben: Various papers
2018-03-11T07:22:27Z siraben: The Lisp 1.5 Programmer's Manual
2018-03-11T07:22:37Z siraben: err
2018-03-11T07:22:48Z siraben: Maybe it's just not suitable for beginners?
2018-03-11T07:22:48Z wasamasa: considering that I have to read a mathematical paper like ten times before I fully understand it, that's obviously not an option for a beginner
2018-03-11T07:22:51Z wasamasa: maybe
2018-03-11T07:23:03Z wasamasa: I've come to the same conclusion, but hoped it's just me
2018-03-11T07:23:17Z siraben: I feel that something like Python would be enough to entice newcomers to programming in general
2018-03-11T07:23:27Z siraben: Or C
2018-03-11T07:23:39Z siraben: But then programming in general is hard
2018-03-11T07:23:46Z vyzo: ugh python is so limited in expressive power
2018-03-11T07:23:56Z vyzo: it's programming by poking around
2018-03-11T07:23:57Z wasamasa: it's good enough for sticking things together
2018-03-11T07:24:03Z vyzo: yes, it's good for that
2018-03-11T07:24:09Z siraben: If I didn't have motivation to spend countless hours I wouldn't have learned programming
2018-03-11T07:24:12Z wasamasa: that's what I mostly use it for these days, reusing some library not found elsewhere
2018-03-11T07:24:40Z wasamasa: like, pygments for highlighting blog posts
2018-03-11T07:24:43Z vyzo: but really, I think SICP is required reading for all Schemers
2018-03-11T07:24:56Z wasamasa: instead of working on a better source highlighter in scheme :D
2018-03-11T07:24:56Z vyzo: you don't have to read the whole book of course
2018-03-11T07:25:05Z siraben: Looking at how I learned programming, and maybe you can relate to this, it was a lot of persistence involved
2018-03-11T07:25:14Z siraben: Not easy for beginners
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2018-03-11T07:25:34Z vyzo: it's not easy for absolute beginners in computing concepts perhaps
2018-03-11T07:25:40Z siraben: It's like learning a new instrument there isn't a "good book", it's through practice
2018-03-11T07:25:49Z vyzo: but someone who already knows another language will gain a lot from it
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2018-03-11T07:29:35Z siraben: wasamasa, vyzo: What was your first programming language?
2018-03-11T07:29:44Z wasamasa: VB6
2018-03-11T07:30:01Z siraben: How was learning that?
2018-03-11T07:30:11Z wasamasa: I almost picked up turbopascal instead, but I never got that running
2018-03-11T07:30:37Z wasamasa: shockingly easy compared to the bullshit you go through with today's languages for guis
2018-03-11T07:31:11Z wasamasa: you draw some gui stuff, double-click on buttons and enter basic keywords into a procedure
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2018-03-11T07:31:29Z wasamasa: http://emacsninja.com/posts/nostalgia.html
2018-03-11T07:32:26Z wasamasa: BASIC was the thing to learn for beginners
2018-03-11T07:32:41Z wasamasa: you typed whatever was in the book and something cool happened on screen
2018-03-11T07:32:46Z siraben: For me it was python
2018-03-11T07:33:52Z siraben: I like your site
2018-03-11T07:34:37Z wasamasa: it's funny that back then people claimed BASIC taught a whole generation of programmers bad habits and now they say the same about JS
2018-03-11T07:34:50Z Zipheir: wasamasa: Wow, I remember VB6 programming when I was 11. Hilarious language :-)
2018-03-11T07:34:51Z siraben: Oh I also programmed a lot in Windows Batch
2018-03-11T07:35:07Z wasamasa: Zipheir: I remember when I finally understood arrays
2018-03-11T07:35:16Z siraben: I was like 11 when I wrote large programs, didn't know about functions but was happy to use GOTOs everywhere
2018-03-11T07:35:20Z wasamasa: before that I just put numbers into variables
2018-03-11T07:35:23Z siraben: large programs in batch*
2018-03-11T07:35:47Z siraben: I had a lot of variables holding state, unknowingly I write finite state machines
2018-03-11T07:36:15Z siraben: Self taught?
2018-03-11T07:36:34Z siraben: I never had anyone guide me, I feel this is the case with a lot of programmers.
2018-03-11T07:37:01Z wasamasa: why, of course
2018-03-11T07:37:45Z Zipheir: siraben: I really enjoyed self-teaching, but my mom got me a tutor who insisted C++ was the only serious language... horrible thing to do to a kid.
2018-03-11T07:38:46Z siraben: Zipheir: Dang
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2018-03-11T07:39:09Z wasamasa: now I have people telling me how well I explain them basic programming concepts for frontend development
2018-03-11T07:39:11Z siraben: I was just messing around for the first couple of years, not really knowing much but playing around with the language
2018-03-11T07:39:16Z Zipheir: siraben: You started with python using GOTOs? I didn't know that language even had it.
2018-03-11T07:39:24Z siraben: That was Windows Batch
2018-03-11T07:39:25Z siraben: .bat files
2018-03-11T07:39:41Z siraben: Python + Batch at first
2018-03-11T07:39:48Z Zipheir: Oh, woops, missed that.
2018-03-11T07:39:58Z siraben: I was surprised Python didn't have GOTOs
2018-03-11T07:40:06Z siraben: But that allowed me to discover functions
2018-03-11T07:40:20Z siraben: And write a short text adventure game like M-x dunnet in emacs
2018-03-11T07:41:05Z siraben: I was really motivated at one point to write a program in Python to understand English sentences and spit out random ones
2018-03-11T07:41:26Z siraben: Didn't know data structures or formal grammars at the time, so it was very primitive
2018-03-11T07:42:07Z siraben: It spit out sentences in the form: The <adjective> <noun> <verb> the <noun> <adverb>.
2018-03-11T07:42:15Z siraben: Used python lists :)
2018-03-11T07:42:33Z siraben: What were some of your early projects as programmers?
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2018-03-11T07:44:57Z Zipheir: siraben: I wrote a silly database of Magic: The Gathering cards in perl/javascript. It probably wasn't terrible for a 12-year-old, but I really didn't get perl.
2018-03-11T07:45:03Z wasamasa: my greatest accomplishment in VB6 was a GUI program that asked you to click a button that would move elsewhere as soon as you hovered over it
2018-03-11T07:45:18Z wasamasa: so that you could never catch it with the mouse
2018-03-11T07:45:24Z siraben: VB6 got be started with GUI programming
2018-03-11T07:45:30Z siraben: got me*
2018-03-11T07:45:36Z siraben: wasamasa: that's funny
2018-03-11T07:45:37Z Zipheir: Heh, sounds infuriating.
2018-03-11T07:45:54Z wasamasa: I replicated it in JS for that blog post
2018-03-11T07:45:59Z siraben: Did you study computer science in high school?
2018-03-11T07:46:23Z Zipheir: VB6 made GUI programming dead easy, provided you didn't look at the actual code.
2018-03-11T07:46:26Z wasamasa: we had a computing course, but it wasn't terribly good
2018-03-11T07:46:36Z wasamasa: the only thing I got out of it was taking a look at this linux thing
2018-03-11T07:46:53Z Zipheir: siraben: Home-schooled, so I was stuck with the Prophet of C++ Insanity.
2018-03-11T07:47:26Z Zipheir: siraben: You?
2018-03-11T07:47:27Z siraben: Same, computer science in high school isn't that great
2018-03-11T07:47:49Z siraben: I enrolled for a couple of classes but decided to switch out for something worth my time
2018-03-11T07:47:56Z Zipheir: Ouch
2018-03-11T07:47:57Z wasamasa: by the time I enrolled at university I'd learned just enough python to conclude it was the one language for everything
2018-03-11T07:48:13Z siraben: But that didn't stop me from learning to program, Zipheir
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2018-03-11T07:48:37Z siraben: University is still a little more than a year away
2018-03-11T07:48:38Z Zipheir: i.e. the class sucked.
2018-03-11T07:48:43Z siraben: Yeah
2018-03-11T07:49:01Z siraben: For one, it's Java, then there's the teacher who doesn't know anything outside the syllabus
2018-03-11T07:49:04Z wasamasa: and then I encountered scheme
2018-03-11T07:49:22Z wasamasa: unfortunately the lecturer encountered both SICP and HTDP and thought it was a good idea to use a wild mix of both
2018-03-11T07:49:25Z siraben: wasamasa: I'm convinced scheme is the language for everything
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2018-03-11T07:49:45Z siraben: So it's good that I understand functional programming this early, i.e. in high school?
2018-03-11T07:49:54Z Zipheir: siraben: Sounds familiar. I've talked to many people whose only experience with CS was a high-school Intro to Java course, which terrified them.
2018-03-11T07:50:01Z siraben: I watched CS50
2018-03-11T07:50:12Z siraben: To learn C, which made me actually learn what data structures are
2018-03-11T07:50:13Z wasamasa: I remember that I promised making a cheatsheet for that darned scheme syntax to some other students, but I never got to it
2018-03-11T07:50:23Z siraben: Scheme has only like 10 commands!
2018-03-11T07:50:40Z Zipheir: siraben: It's awesome, I wish I got into it that early.
2018-03-11T07:51:07Z siraben: I have to study for AP CS coming up soon though
2018-03-11T07:51:12Z siraben: Java
2018-03-11T07:51:28Z wasamasa: the last class we had made me finally see the light because it showed something I couldn't easily have done in python, a calculator
2018-03-11T07:51:32Z siraben: Otherwise universities don't know I like computer science, because I'm not in a class
2018-03-11T07:51:46Z siraben: wasamasa: A calculator?
2018-03-11T07:51:57Z wasamasa: it was more like a limited scheme evaluator really
2018-03-11T07:52:23Z siraben: For me the enlightening part was writing a symbolic differentiation program in Scheme
2018-03-11T07:52:31Z siraben: It was so simple
2018-03-11T07:52:37Z wasamasa: get a list and munch it down depending on what operators you encounter
2018-03-11T07:52:43Z siraben: Ah I see
2018-03-11T07:52:55Z wasamasa: the same strategy as with the SICP differentiation program
2018-03-11T07:52:56Z siraben: How is computer science in university?
2018-03-11T07:52:58Z Zipheir: That's a chapter in SICP, right?
2018-03-11T07:53:00Z siraben: Yeah
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2018-03-11T07:53:46Z siraben: Side note: I'm really happy to have found a scheme community in IRC, I was completely on my own for months
2018-03-11T07:54:01Z wasamasa: well, this wasn't exactly computer science I enrolled in, but anyway, afterwards I had java classes and switched to college where we did some C and java
2018-03-11T07:54:35Z wasamasa: at that time I was still intrigued by this scheme thing and found a local meetup for clojure
2018-03-11T07:54:37Z siraben: Why is Java taught so much
2018-03-11T07:54:47Z siraben: It's not very nice to beginners
2018-03-11T07:54:53Z Zipheir: It really isn't.
2018-03-11T07:54:57Z wasamasa: I met a guy there who recommended racket and CHICKEN to me
2018-03-11T07:55:05Z siraben: I was in the first lesson of computer science, and the teacher taught how to write hello world in Java
2018-03-11T07:55:10Z Zipheir: I suppose because it's so incredibly popular in 'the industry'.
2018-03-11T07:55:12Z wasamasa: I also met my current employer there
2018-03-11T07:55:16Z siraben: In which you rite 80% of code you don't understand already
2018-03-11T07:55:51Z Zipheir: siraben: do you contribute to any projects?
2018-03-11T07:55:57Z siraben: No, should I?
2018-03-11T07:56:01Z siraben: I don't know many languages
2018-03-11T07:56:12Z siraben: Recently it's been C, Scheme and now Javascript
2018-03-11T07:56:20Z siraben: Looking to learn Rust, Haskell, Clojure
2018-03-11T07:56:35Z siraben: Zipheir: How do I get started?
2018-03-11T07:56:35Z Zipheir: siraben: That's how I got out of the doodling-around-with-C stage.
2018-03-11T07:56:57Z wasamasa: know a project well enough to report and fix its bugs
2018-03-11T07:57:17Z siraben: I just heard of https://github.com/google/schism
2018-03-11T07:57:19Z Zipheir: Find a project you like with people who seem nice and send some patches.
2018-03-11T07:57:31Z Zipheir: It can be scary, but it's worth it.
2018-03-11T07:57:44Z siraben: It's a Scheme to Webassembly compiler, but they don't have things like closures (lambda) yet
2018-03-11T07:57:52Z siraben: Zipheir: How do I know when people are nice?
2018-03-11T07:58:08Z siraben: I've just begun submitting issues on github
2018-03-11T07:58:34Z Zipheir: Hanging out in IRC or on mailing lists is good, because you can get a feel for the community.
2018-03-11T07:58:47Z siraben: It's the first time I interacted with Schemers in real time
2018-03-11T07:58:52Z vyzo: siraben: first programming language was ZX Spectrum basic back in '84 :)
2018-03-11T07:58:55Z siraben: Great community so far
2018-03-11T07:59:11Z siraben: vyzo: Wow!
2018-03-11T07:59:15Z vyzo: and then Z80 assembly to crack the games :)
2018-03-11T07:59:30Z siraben: The first time I used a computer it ran Windows XP
2018-03-11T07:59:35Z Zipheir: Z80 was a really cool architecture.
2018-03-11T07:59:42Z vyzo: yeah, it's a totally different experience
2018-03-11T07:59:46Z vyzo: for me SICP was great
2018-03-11T07:59:49Z vyzo: it's how I got into scheme
2018-03-11T08:00:08Z vyzo: but I already was an experienced programmand and knew a whole lot of other programming languges by then
2018-03-11T08:00:11Z siraben: SICP was when I realized I really don't know how computation works
2018-03-11T08:00:19Z vyzo: it's a beautiful book
2018-03-11T08:00:43Z siraben: Learning C was a great experience because before that I was softened by Python's dynamic typing, memory allocation and extensive libraries
2018-03-11T08:00:47Z Zipheir: I started with Dybvig, but I think SICP really opened my eyes to the language.
2018-03-11T08:00:52Z siraben: Having to understand pointers was worth it
2018-03-11T08:01:08Z vyzo: yeah, C is also a beuatiful language (personal opinion)
2018-03-11T08:01:16Z siraben: Zipheir: Do you still write Scheme?
2018-03-11T08:01:22Z vyzo: it's very similar to Scheme in a sense, just a different domain
2018-03-11T08:01:27Z siraben: I don't know where to write scheme expect for personal curiosity.
2018-03-11T08:01:41Z siraben: Or any language, because I haven't begun contributing to anything yet
2018-03-11T08:01:49Z Zipheir: siraben: I've been studying Haskell lately, but I write mostly in Scheme, namely CHICKEN.
2018-03-11T08:01:52Z siraben: https://github.com/siraben
2018-03-11T08:02:00Z siraben: I wrote this in scheme:
2018-03-11T08:02:01Z siraben: https://siraben.github.io/brownies/
2018-03-11T08:02:07Z siraben: It's a simple cookie clicker game
2018-03-11T08:02:11Z vyzo: try out Gerbil!
2018-03-11T08:02:34Z siraben: Anyone use Biwascheme?
2018-03-11T08:02:40Z siraben: Has good interop with javascript
2018-03-11T08:02:56Z siraben: Zipheir: What are the differences between Chicken and Chez?
2018-03-11T08:03:21Z siraben: Most of my commits have been to my Emacs config lol
2018-03-11T08:03:22Z ecraven: mainly libraries, and chez being r6rs only
2018-03-11T08:03:25Z Zipheir: siraben: Heh, fun.
2018-03-11T08:03:40Z siraben: Zipheir: You can see the scheme source with view page source
2018-03-11T08:03:55Z siraben: Basic message passing from SICP
2018-03-11T08:04:15Z wasamasa: siraben: CHICKEN has hundreds of eggs, the same cannot be said of chez
2018-03-11T08:04:22Z wasamasa: siraben: also, r5rs vs r6rs
2018-03-11T08:04:28Z Zipheir: siraben: You can look it up, but Chicken is a small, pretty clean implementation that compiles to C.
2018-03-11T08:04:42Z siraben: What about GNU Guile?
2018-03-11T08:04:45Z Zipheir: siraben: Chez does everything on the planet.
2018-03-11T08:05:07Z siraben: If possible I would like to write everything in Scheme because it's so nice
2018-03-11T08:05:16Z ecraven: siraben: there are enough schemes to actually do that
2018-03-11T08:05:21Z vyzo: it's the cleanest language there is
2018-03-11T08:05:22Z ecraven: just pick the one that does the job best
2018-03-11T08:05:27Z vyzo: it's great for expressing ideas
2018-03-11T08:05:33Z siraben: Racket for GUI, Biwascheme for Web, Chicken for native?
2018-03-11T08:05:42Z vyzo: siraben: Gerbil for native :)
2018-03-11T08:05:53Z siraben: Thanks vyzo
2018-03-11T08:05:56Z vyzo: obligatory advertisement :)
2018-03-11T08:06:00Z ecraven: there are several contenders for native code ;) depending on what you want / need
2018-03-11T08:06:04Z Zipheir: ecraven is absolutely right. The mistake I made when I started with Scheme was to look for 'the' implementation.
2018-03-11T08:06:17Z ecraven: Zipheir: just to be clear,
2018-03-11T08:06:23Z ecraven: I also have favorites
2018-03-11T08:06:27Z vyzo: you need experience with different ones to appreciate each and every one of them
2018-03-11T08:06:30Z siraben: One of the things I worry about sometimes is that universities won't see that I absolutely love programming, so would contributing to projects help with that?
2018-03-11T08:06:48Z siraben: Admission officers specifically
2018-03-11T08:06:48Z ecraven: but if I want java interoperability, I use kawa, if I want speed, chez, if I want a world-like dev environment, mit
2018-03-11T08:06:58Z siraben: There's a lot of schemes
2018-03-11T08:07:00Z ecraven: vyzo: exactly
2018-03-11T08:07:08Z Zipheir: ecraven: Right.
2018-03-11T08:07:20Z ecraven: also, among the major schemes, there is none that is really 'bad', they just have different priorities
2018-03-11T08:07:41Z ecraven: some day I want to start a page comparing them better than just via benchmarks
2018-03-11T08:07:55Z ecraven: but I don't know most of them well enough myself yet :-/
2018-03-11T08:08:22Z siraben: GNU Guile seems like it would allow me to extend my C programs easily
2018-03-11T08:08:40Z vyzo: yes, Guile is *great* for embedding
2018-03-11T08:08:40Z ecraven: siraben: for embedding inside C programs, I've found chibi to be very nice
2018-03-11T08:08:47Z Zipheir: siraben: You really should get attention for contributing to projects, but who knows how admissions people think.
2018-03-11T08:09:48Z siraben: Getting started with contributing is scary
2018-03-11T08:10:07Z ecraven: siraben: just send a PR, the worst that can happen is people explaining to you why it is not a good idea
2018-03-11T08:10:18Z siraben: Right
2018-03-11T08:10:24Z wasamasa: ecraven: reminds me that there's still a PR you didn't look into :P
2018-03-11T08:10:31Z vyzo: two :)
2018-03-11T08:10:31Z ecraven: if they are uncivil about it, leave that Scheme behind and chose another :P
2018-03-11T08:10:36Z siraben: A lot of the projects are really big though
2018-03-11T08:10:46Z ecraven: wasamasa: hehe, guilty, vyzo's too... sorry, I'll try to look at them tonight or tomorrow
2018-03-11T08:10:51Z Zipheir: siraben: what are you interested in writing?
2018-03-11T08:10:56Z wasamasa: or is there, hm
2018-03-11T08:10:58Z siraben: Writing?
2018-03-11T08:11:07Z Zipheir: s/writing/programming/
2018-03-11T08:11:11Z ecraven: I really need that cortical implant so I can work while not at the computer
2018-03-11T08:11:32Z siraben: Well I don't know. After SICP I'm a bit devoid of ideas
2018-03-11T08:11:37Z wasamasa: ecraven: https://github.com/ecraven/r7rs-coverage/pull/2
2018-03-11T08:11:40Z siraben: I'm writing a filesystem in C
2018-03-11T08:11:49Z siraben: Reading about inodes and blocks
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2018-03-11T08:11:55Z ecraven: wasamasa: yea, sorry, I haven't looked at that project in some time.. I'll try to soon ;)
2018-03-11T08:12:17Z vyzo: siraben: that's a fun project
2018-03-11T08:12:20Z ecraven: with moving all my stuff to chez I've been busy getting that working :-/
2018-03-11T08:12:24Z Zipheir: siraben: That's quite cool.
2018-03-11T08:12:41Z siraben: For a while I was reading other people's Lisp interpreters in C and writing my own
2018-03-11T08:12:58Z vyzo: now that's a good little schemer :)
2018-03-11T08:13:19Z siraben: Realized I made enough changes to someone's interpreter and submitted my first PR without thinking lol
2018-03-11T08:13:22Z siraben: https://github.com/petermichaux/bootstrap-scheme/pull/5
2018-03-11T08:13:52Z siraben: Nothing amazing, just adding bignum support
2018-03-11T08:14:11Z siraben: It's hard to read C code spread over many files
2018-03-11T08:14:27Z siraben: Or in any language in general
2018-03-11T08:15:00Z vyzo: it gets better with experience
2018-03-11T08:15:04Z vyzo: first you read a single file
2018-03-11T08:15:14Z vyzo: reach the 1-2kloc limit
2018-03-11T08:15:27Z siraben: Seems like I'm around there
2018-03-11T08:15:34Z vyzo: then you have to split make modules
2018-03-11T08:15:41Z vyzo: it stops being maintainable
2018-03-11T08:16:27Z Zipheir: It's much less of a problem with scheme and other functional languages, since they're so much more expressive.
2018-03-11T08:16:52Z vyzo: you can do a lot in 1kloc of scheme!
2018-03-11T08:16:58Z siraben: That was my experience with my emacs config
2018-03-11T08:17:07Z siraben: After a while one file is maintainable
2018-03-11T08:17:10Z siraben: unmaintainable*
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2018-03-11T08:17:25Z siraben: So I read the config files from this repo: https://github.com/bbatsov/prelude
2018-03-11T08:18:30Z siraben: Any recommended projects for beginners to contribute to?
2018-03-11T08:20:20Z Zipheir: siraben: If you can add GMP support to a scheme implementation, I think you're beyond 'beginner'.
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2018-03-11T08:22:08Z siraben: wasn't that trivial though? Just following and replacing calls to long with mpz_t and looking up the docs
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2018-03-11T08:22:21Z siraben: Zipheir: Thanks, though.
2018-03-11T08:23:48Z siraben: There's an Emacs clone in Scheme
2018-03-11T08:23:50Z siraben: https://github.com/FemtoEmacs/Femto-Emacs/
2018-03-11T08:24:02Z siraben: Has some issues, maybe I should take a look into it
2018-03-11T08:24:44Z siraben: But reading it is daunting
2018-03-11T08:24:50Z siraben: Dozens of files
2018-03-11T08:25:59Z Zipheir: I wasn't aware of the project. Looks interesting.
2018-03-11T08:26:14Z Zipheir: The C is a bit messy, but it's fairly small.
2018-03-11T08:26:39Z siraben: Time is an issue, as uni apps are coming towards the end of the year, I don't know if I'll have enough time
2018-03-11T08:26:56Z siraben: We'll see
2018-03-11T08:28:42Z siraben: Hey #scheme, why are CPS program transformations important?
2018-03-11T08:29:43Z siraben: Seems like how you would turn a recursive function iterative with an accumulator
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2018-03-11T08:29:53Z vyzo: that's complicated to explain :)
2018-03-11T08:30:03Z vyzo: but basiclly it bolis down to making the program tail recursive
2018-03-11T08:30:26Z vyzo: for compilers it's very very important, as they can apply several optimizing transformations
2018-03-11T08:30:31Z siraben: I'm following https://www.cs.utah.edu/%7Emflatt/past-courses/cs6520/public_html/s02/cps.pdf
2018-03-11T08:31:03Z siraben: But you're building a stack of nested lambdas?
2018-03-11T08:31:12Z siraben: ((lambda (l) ((lambda (l) l) (cons 1000 l))) (cons 999 l))))
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2018-03-11T08:31:53Z vyzo: yes, but there is no control stack build-up when you invoke them
2018-03-11T08:32:10Z vyzo: the stack is bounded by the program structural complexity not the input complexity
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2018-03-11T08:35:16Z Zipheir: siraben: The Lambda Papers have some stuff on CPS in Scheme, if you're interested. They're a fun read, for technical papers.
2018-03-11T08:35:38Z siraben: I see
2018-03-11T08:36:07Z siraben: You can do such a transformation with a macro in scheme?
2018-03-11T08:36:12Z vyzo: sure
2018-03-11T08:36:19Z vyzo: but you probably want to let the compiler do it
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2018-03-11T08:44:19Z Zipheir: Curiousity: Has anyone done/attempted the final two exercises of SICP (translating the EC evaluator and compiler into C)?
2018-03-11T08:45:02Z vyzo: that reminds me of another great book
2018-03-11T08:45:05Z Zipheir: Eh, sorry. The last part should be "compiling scheme to C, rather than pseudo-assembly".
2018-03-11T08:45:08Z vyzo: Lisp In Small Pieces
2018-03-11T08:45:16Z vyzo: although definitely not a beginner book
2018-03-11T08:49:16Z siraben: Zipheir: I have
2018-03-11T08:49:45Z Zipheir: vyzo: Nice, this looks quite informative.
2018-03-11T08:50:22Z siraben: Zipheir: I wrote an interpreter for lisp in C
2018-03-11T08:50:37Z siraben: Zipheir: But no compiler
2018-03-11T08:50:48Z Zipheir: siraben: Did you translate the interpreter from SICP, or just write one fresh?
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2018-03-11T08:52:50Z siraben: Zipheir: SICP has an interpreter?
2018-03-11T08:53:01Z siraben: Zipheir: It's for the register machine though, which I never fully grasped
2018-03-11T08:53:04Z Zipheir: Since the SICP interpreter is implemented for a register machine, I'm curious as to how people dealt with translating it to a structured language and with implementing tail recursion, etc.
2018-03-11T08:53:14Z siraben: Zipheir: I used the features in C
2018-03-11T08:53:23Z Zipheir: siraben: Yeah, not the metacircular.
2018-03-11T08:54:09Z siraben: Zipheir: I used my own metacircular evaluator
2018-03-11T08:54:19Z siraben: Which was more or less the same as others
2018-03-11T08:54:22Z Zipheir: siraben: OK, that's what I ended up doing.
2018-03-11T08:54:34Z siraben: The hardest part for me was reading input from the user
2018-03-11T08:54:47Z siraben: And implementing closures
2018-03-11T08:54:56Z Zipheir: siraben: How about tail recursion?
2018-03-11T08:54:59Z siraben: You actually need to make frames
2018-03-11T08:55:14Z siraben: That's easy, just use a GOTO call when you need to evaluate the arguments
2018-03-11T08:55:25Z Zipheir: Rigt.
2018-03-11T08:55:27Z Zipheir: *Right.
2018-03-11T08:56:05Z Zipheir: SICP does it with register magic, and I wondered if I was straying from the spirit of the exercise in doing it 'C-style'.
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2018-03-11T08:56:39Z siraben: Where would you find a register machine
2018-03-11T08:56:52Z siraben: I found that part of the book painful
2018-03-11T08:57:01Z siraben: A bit rewarding, perhaps
2018-03-11T08:57:05Z vyzo: modern computers _are_ register machines
2018-03-11T08:57:22Z vyzo: you can find one in your friendly neighbourhood assembler :)
2018-03-11T08:57:56Z siraben: I haven't read up on assembly language
2018-03-11T08:58:02Z siraben: Seems like magic to me
2018-03-11T08:58:56Z siraben: C has a lot of its own quirks
2018-03-11T08:59:13Z siraben: Zipheir: I recommend adding #include <gc/gc.h> at the top of your file
2018-03-11T08:59:31Z siraben: And
2018-03-11T08:59:32Z siraben: #define malloc(n) GC_MALLOC(n)
2018-03-11T08:59:32Z siraben: #define calloc(m,n) GC_malloc((m)*(n))
2018-03-11T08:59:33Z siraben: #define strdup(a) GC_STRDUP(a)
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2018-03-11T08:59:35Z siraben: #define strndup(a, b) GC_strndup(a , b)
2018-03-11T08:59:50Z siraben: This replaces calls to memory allocation to that of the Boehm GC
2018-03-11T09:00:27Z vyzo: the boehm gc is not so great for scheme, where you make lots of cons cells
2018-03-11T09:00:35Z vyzo: it's kind of worst case pattern for it
2018-03-11T09:00:42Z siraben: True
2018-03-11T09:01:02Z siraben: I did a stress test of a Scheme interpreter in C, consing 100,000 numbers
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2018-03-11T09:01:09Z siraben: Ended up with 1.5 GB memory usage
2018-03-11T09:01:13Z vyzo: ouch
2018-03-11T09:01:19Z siraben: This is fascinating: https://carld.github.io/2017/06/20/lisp-in-less-than-200-lines-of-c.html
2018-03-11T09:01:23Z siraben: Lisp in 200 lines of C
2018-03-11T09:01:33Z damke quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2018-03-11T09:02:08Z siraben: His repository has a new interpreter, mlisp89 with proper closures
2018-03-11T09:02:09Z siraben: https://github.com/carld/micro-lisp
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2018-03-11T09:02:42Z siraben: And his meta-circular evaluator is written without defines
2018-03-11T09:02:47Z vyzo: these are good instructive exercise
2018-03-11T09:02:50Z Zipheir: siraben: Sure, but part of the point of the exercises is to implement the damn GC yourself. :)
2018-03-11T09:02:51Z siraben: So he uses the Y-combinator to do recursion
2018-03-11T09:02:54Z vyzo: if you want to be mind-blown read on Maru
2018-03-11T09:03:03Z siraben: Zipheir: Yeah, I'll need to implement GC myself when I have time
2018-03-11T09:03:04Z Zipheir: siraben: Heh, hardcore.
2018-03-11T09:03:29Z vyzo: http://www.piumarta.com/software/maru/
2018-03-11T09:03:35Z siraben: When I first read about the lambda calculus, it was like magic
2018-03-11T09:03:57Z Zipheir: Oh yeah, Maru.
2018-03-11T09:04:06Z siraben: This is the best lambda calculus interpreter online, IMO
2018-03-11T09:04:07Z siraben: https://m42.github.io/mikrokosmos/tutorial.html
2018-03-11T09:04:44Z siraben: Then I heard about Lisp and how it "enlightens" you, so of course that was the next step!
2018-03-11T09:05:09Z siraben: Wow Maru
2018-03-11T09:05:22Z siraben: I'm thinking of a simple mark-sweep GC at first
2018-03-11T09:05:23Z Zipheir: siraben: Have you read Bird & Wadler's Intro to Functional Programming? That's another classic you might enjoy.
2018-03-11T09:06:09Z siraben: Looks like Haskell
2018-03-11T09:06:25Z siraben: Is it Miranda?
2018-03-11T09:06:26Z Zipheir: siraben: The original is closer to Miranda
2018-03-11T09:06:37Z siraben: Wow FP is old
2018-03-11T09:07:01Z siraben: I still don't get how the lambda calculus is equivalent to a Turing Machine
2018-03-11T09:07:03Z Zipheir: siraben: Richard Bird uses some of his own notation, it's easy to translate.
2018-03-11T09:07:11Z siraben: How does one do recursion in the Turing Machine? With a stack?
2018-03-11T09:07:19Z siraben: Zipheir: I see
2018-03-11T09:07:33Z siraben: Is there a lambda calculus to turing machine compiler?
2018-03-11T09:07:36Z vyzo: you have an infinite tape ...
2018-03-11T09:07:37Z siraben: Or vice versa
2018-03-11T09:07:44Z vyzo: for the stack
2018-03-11T09:08:03Z siraben: Turing machines are fun to write
2018-03-11T09:08:15Z siraben: There was this really good iOS app that let you drag states around
2018-03-11T09:09:22Z siraben: My last TM was a multiplier
2018-03-11T09:09:22Z siraben: https://imgur.com/a/7bUlF
2018-03-11T09:09:36Z Zipheir: As influential as they are, Turing machines are probably the least interesting of the three original models of computation. It's kind of an awkward idea.
2018-03-11T09:10:35Z siraben: Zipheir: If you want to see my multiplication machine in action: http://morphett.info/turing/turing.html?7106a4ab2a316bc0d23eec6bef2a7bdc
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2018-03-11T09:11:18Z siraben: Yeah Turing machines are awkward
2018-03-11T09:11:32Z siraben: To be honest it felt like string manipulation the entire time
2018-03-11T09:12:00Z Zipheir: Fun. I might show this to someone the next time I have to explain TMs.
2018-03-11T09:12:21Z damke_ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2018-03-11T09:12:30Z Zipheir: Or like C, Fortran, Pascal, ... Turing tar pits, the lot of them.
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2018-03-11T09:12:33Z siraben: I was thinking "if (*head == '1') { head++; state = 3; goto start;} else ..."
2018-03-11T09:12:44Z siraben: When I was drawing state transition diagrams
2018-03-11T09:13:19Z siraben: Zipheir: Have you heard of FRACTRAN?
2018-03-11T09:13:21Z siraben: Very interesting
2018-03-11T09:14:25Z Zipheir: I have now. It uses Gödel numbering?
2018-03-11T09:14:29Z siraben: Turing machines have a meta-circular evaluator too, just not as elegant as Lisp
2018-03-11T09:14:30Z siraben: yes
2018-03-11T09:14:45Z siraben: I wrote a paper on it
2018-03-11T09:15:01Z siraben: It's Turing complete, I didn't prove that, but I showed that you can abstract away to state transitions
2018-03-11T09:15:12Z siraben: And do things like division, multiplication etc. quite trivially
2018-03-11T09:15:40Z siraben: Zipheir: Someone wrote a compiler for it in Common Lisp
2018-03-11T09:15:41Z siraben: http://malisper.me/building-fizzbuzz-fractran-bottom/
2018-03-11T09:15:56Z siraben: I saw it be done in Scheme!
2018-03-11T09:15:58Z siraben: say*
2018-03-11T09:16:35Z siraben: Zipheir: Actually, since FRACTRAN is a register machine, one could write a Lisp interpreter in it
2018-03-11T09:16:49Z siraben: Zipheir: Using SICP's model
2018-03-11T09:16:55Z Zipheir: This looks like fun.
2018-03-11T09:17:22Z Zipheir: Not implementing lisp in FRACTRAN, that is :)
2018-03-11T09:17:35Z siraben: Lol
2018-03-11T09:17:46Z siraben: Do you know cyclic tag systems?
2018-03-11T09:18:28Z Zipheir: No, I'm not familiar with them.
2018-03-11T09:18:43Z siraben: Apparently they're Turing complete, but I fail to see why
2018-03-11T09:18:58Z siraben: They're very simple
2018-03-11T09:19:47Z siraben: A lot of theses models of computation (I would say with the exception of lambda calculus )are easy to explain to laypeople
2018-03-11T09:19:49Z Zipheir: Looks a lot like the MU puzzle from Gödel, Escher, Bach
2018-03-11T09:19:59Z siraben: Oh I'm thinking of reading that book next
2018-03-11T09:20:02Z siraben: How is it?
2018-03-11T09:20:44Z Zipheir: Very good. A bit long, but really fascinating.
2018-03-11T09:20:59Z siraben: What about a New Kind of Science
2018-03-11T09:21:02Z Zipheir: It helps to have some background in logic, music and philosophy.
2018-03-11T09:21:09Z Zipheir: I haven't read it.
2018-03-11T09:21:20Z siraben: 1. I don't 2. Yes. 3. Yes
2018-03-11T09:21:39Z siraben: Basic logic I can do, I suppose
2018-03-11T09:22:42Z siraben: Zipheir: How was your reaction to the meta-circular evaluator when you first heard about it?
2018-03-11T09:23:07Z Zipheir: You mean the one in SICP, or just metacircular evals in general?
2018-03-11T09:23:19Z siraben: The first time you saw one
2018-03-11T09:23:26Z siraben: Anywhere
2018-03-11T09:23:49Z siraben: SICP's one is a bit dense
2018-03-11T09:24:38Z Zipheir: It wasn't too weird. I guess if you've seen a compiler written in its own target language it's all pretty familiar.
2018-03-11T09:24:51Z siraben: Ah lol
2018-03-11T09:24:55Z siraben: I never had before
2018-03-11T09:25:04Z Zipheir: Not a fan of metacirculars?
2018-03-11T09:25:05Z siraben: So when I first saw a small one I was blown away
2018-03-11T09:25:22Z siraben: I'm in high school, so all CS I know is self-taught
2018-03-11T09:25:40Z siraben: I knew Universal Turing Machines existed, but they seemed far off
2018-03-11T09:25:48Z siraben: I think Paul Graham's On Lisp PDF is where I saw it
2018-03-11T09:25:57Z Zipheir: Sounds about right.
2018-03-11T09:26:09Z siraben: It was just so simple.
2018-03-11T09:26:11Z siraben: Made sense
2018-03-11T09:26:44Z siraben: You could make an infinite tower of them, have reflection and so on
2018-03-11T09:27:00Z siraben: Oh I wasn't Paul Graham's On Lisp
2018-03-11T09:27:00Z Zipheir: The SICP lecture with the hats is great, since Sussman writes out a metacircular eval on his blackboard and tells everyone to gaze on its awesomeness.
2018-03-11T09:27:07Z siraben: It was Will Byrd's talk
2018-03-11T09:27:08Z siraben: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OyfBQmvr2Hc
2018-03-11T09:27:21Z siraben: That made me want to learn Scheme
2018-03-11T09:27:41Z siraben: Really good talk
2018-03-11T09:28:00Z siraben: Zipheir: I remember that scene, it was good.
2018-03-11T09:28:26Z Zipheir: Looks good, I'll watch it when I've got an hour.
2018-03-11T09:28:36Z siraben: Yep
2018-03-11T09:28:52Z siraben: Does Will Byrd come to #scheme ?
2018-03-11T09:29:01Z Zipheir: No idea.
2018-03-11T09:29:34Z siraben: What do you do with Scheme now?
2018-03-11T09:30:20Z Zipheir: I wrote a scheme Gopher server recently, for some reason. Boredom, I guess.
2018-03-11T09:30:46Z siraben: Does scheme have a lot of use?
2018-03-11T09:30:49Z siraben: Apart from academia
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2018-03-11T09:31:16Z Zipheir: That question gets asked a lot...
2018-03-11T09:31:37Z siraben: What's the common response?
2018-03-11T09:31:57Z Zipheir: Something about Turing completeness :-)
2018-03-11T09:32:07Z siraben: Haha
2018-03-11T09:32:47Z Zipheir: Look, if companies can do massive projects with Java, how could you do things worse in scheme?
2018-03-11T09:33:07Z siraben: How do programmers tolerate working with 1k+ lines of Java code?
2018-03-11T09:33:23Z siraben: Well, Scheme doesn't have real object orientation
2018-03-11T09:33:41Z siraben: That probably isn't necessary in most cases
2018-03-11T09:33:43Z Zipheir: Depends on how you define 'real'.
2018-03-11T09:33:53Z siraben: True, you can implement your own
2018-03-11T09:34:53Z siraben: There's GNU Guix
2018-03-11T09:35:04Z siraben: A package manager built from Guile
2018-03-11T09:35:09Z Zipheir: If you're looking for the Kingdom of Nouns, though, Scheme ain't it. http://steve-yegge.blogspot.com/2006/03/execution-in-kingdom-of-nouns.html
2018-03-11T09:36:22Z siraben: SICP does that
2018-03-11T09:36:33Z siraben: I used it in my little scheme game
2018-03-11T09:36:39Z siraben: But it's message passing
2018-03-11T09:37:13Z Zipheir: Yeah, which is most of what's useful about OOP, IMHO.
2018-03-11T09:37:33Z siraben: What about encapsulation?
2018-03-11T09:37:44Z siraben: That can be done with local variables with 'let'
2018-03-11T09:38:04Z Zipheir: Obviously.
2018-03-11T09:38:06Z siraben: IMO OOP can be done easily in Scheme, but it's likely you won't need it
2018-03-11T09:38:24Z Zipheir: siraben, this is the beginning of wisdom. :)
2018-03-11T09:38:43Z siraben: What still eludes me is logic programming
2018-03-11T09:38:54Z siraben: I haven't fully understood minikanren yet
2018-03-11T09:40:05Z vyzo: Prolog is an interesting language to learn
2018-03-11T09:40:12Z vyzo: it gives some enlightenment too :)
2018-03-11T09:40:35Z Zipheir: It's really a fascinating idea.
2018-03-11T09:41:19Z siraben: Have different Schemes run into security issues?
2018-03-11T09:41:31Z siraben: Any arbitrary code execution sort of thing?
2018-03-11T09:42:24Z Zipheir: You'd have to look at specific implementations' bug reports.
2018-03-11T09:42:28Z siraben: Ah
2018-03-11T09:42:34Z siraben: I use chezscheme
2018-03-11T09:42:36Z Zipheir: Or do you mean 'is scheme a secure language?'
2018-03-11T09:42:39Z siraben: Yeah
2018-03-11T09:42:44Z siraben: I suppose it is
2018-03-11T09:42:49Z siraben: Depends on what power you give it
2018-03-11T09:43:21Z siraben: Chez has had 4 bug reports ever
2018-03-11T09:43:40Z Zipheir: There's probably no such thing. At least you don't have to keep track of buffer sizes. :-p
2018-03-11T09:44:47Z vyzo: it's a reasonably safe language
2018-03-11T09:44:55Z Zipheir: Chez was recently proprietary.
2018-03-11T09:44:57Z vyzo: much harder to have certain classes of bugs
2018-03-11T09:45:02Z siraben: If I want to write a compiler, should I wait until I understand program correctness and proving?
2018-03-11T09:45:05Z siraben: Chez is free now
2018-03-11T09:45:50Z siraben: Ah, LambdaNative
2018-03-11T09:45:50Z siraben: http://www.lambdanative.org/
2018-03-11T09:46:02Z siraben: Scheme for iOS, Android Blackberry, OS X, Linux, Windows, OpenBSD, NetBSD, FreeBSD and OpenWrt, from a single source code.
2018-03-11T09:46:10Z Zipheir: Unless you're doing it for some company, just go for it :)
2018-03-11T09:46:31Z siraben: What are some good SICP-like books on compiler design?
2018-03-11T09:47:35Z Zipheir: siraben: The Dragon Book is the classic. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compilers:_Principles,_Techniques,_and_Tools
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2018-03-11T09:48:20Z siraben: Hey that looks like LLVM's dragon
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2018-03-11T09:48:43Z siraben: Thanks Zipheir I'll look into it
2018-03-11T09:48:55Z Zipheir: I have a hard copy of the 1970s version with the psychedelic pink knight. It's glorious.
2018-03-11T09:50:51Z siraben: Holy crap compiler design is going to take forever to learn
2018-03-11T09:50:59Z Zipheir: np, thanks for all of your links! I have some reading to do.
2018-03-11T09:51:08Z siraben: Thanks for your links too!
2018-03-11T09:51:34Z siraben: I'll do it during the summer perhaps
2018-03-11T09:52:51Z vyzo: siraben: the Dragon book is not so relevant to scheme
2018-03-11T09:52:58Z siraben: Yeah
2018-03-11T09:53:00Z vyzo: it spends half the book dealing with parsers
2018-03-11T09:53:04Z vyzo: in Scheme you just read :)
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2018-03-11T09:53:12Z siraben: yay
2018-03-11T09:53:20Z siraben: I should work through SICP's compiler first perhaps
2018-03-11T09:53:22Z vyzo: and you implement that with a recursive descent parser quite easily
2018-03-11T09:53:31Z vyzo: you can check dyvbig's nanopass paper
2018-03-11T09:53:44Z Zipheir: True. The parsing chapters are really interesting, though.
2018-03-11T09:54:11Z siraben: Wow nanopass
2018-03-11T09:54:17Z vyzo: start with https://www.cs.indiana.edu/~dyb/pubs/nano-jfp.pdf
2018-03-11T09:54:52Z Zipheir: siraben: Not scheme, but https://compilers.iecc.com/crenshaw/ is a fun crash-course recursive descent compiler.
2018-03-11T09:54:53Z siraben: What does it compile to?
2018-03-11T09:54:59Z siraben: nanopass
2018-03-11T09:55:11Z vyzo: for the collection of papers: http://lambda-the-ultimate.org/node/1589
2018-03-11T09:55:31Z vyzo: it compiles to assembly in the end
2018-03-11T09:55:38Z siraben: x86?
2018-03-11T09:56:05Z Zipheir: vyzo: Thanks, looks good!
2018-03-11T09:56:20Z siraben: thanks vyzo!
2018-03-11T09:56:38Z siraben: The #scheme IRC is amazing
2018-03-11T09:59:07Z siraben: What about HtDP, what is that?
2018-03-11T09:59:09Z Zipheir: Damn, a few dead links for those papers. Oh well.
2018-03-11T09:59:35Z siraben: https://archive.org
2018-03-11T09:59:52Z vyzo: HtDP is another good book
2018-03-11T10:00:18Z siraben: So much to learn
2018-03-11T10:00:24Z vyzo: take your time :)
2018-03-11T10:00:36Z siraben: How is university compared to high school?
2018-03-11T10:00:41Z vyzo: programming is a lifelong endeavor
2018-03-11T10:00:42Z siraben: On a day to day basis
2018-03-11T10:00:48Z siraben: vyzo: agreed
2018-03-11T10:01:12Z Zipheir: In my US-centered experience, depressingly similar :p
2018-03-11T10:01:33Z siraben: More freedom to choose your classes?
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2018-03-11T10:03:22Z Zipheir: Yeah. It's hard to beat the un-freedom of being legally required to spend your entire day 'learning'. :)
2018-03-11T10:03:38Z Zipheir: i.e. pre-college schooling in most countries.
2018-03-11T10:04:12Z siraben: I'm going to have to go now, be back later.
2018-03-11T10:04:21Z siraben: Thanks for all the links1
2018-03-11T10:04:47Z Zipheir: \o
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2018-03-11T11:33:30Z faLUCE: Hello. In this way:   (set! elems1 (cons y elems1))       I add y to the begin of elems1. How can I add y to the end of elems1 ?
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2018-03-11T12:19:30Z siraben: faLUCE: use append
2018-03-11T12:19:40Z siraben: faLUCE: (set! elems1 (append elems1 y))
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2018-03-11T12:21:40Z faLUCE: siraben: it works if I do    (set! elems1 (append elems1 (list y)))
2018-03-11T12:26:20Z wasamasa: siraben: safety isn't a property of the language, but the implementation
2018-03-11T12:26:30Z wasamasa: siraben: this can include the machine the software runs on
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2018-03-11T12:26:55Z siraben: faLUCE: Ah I see append takes two lists
2018-03-11T12:27:00Z wasamasa: siraben: I've run into a few issues of this kind in CHICKEN as it's implemented in C, but there's no reason others do better
2018-03-11T12:28:04Z siraben: I don't get improper lists
2018-03-11T12:28:09Z siraben: What is the purpose of the dot notation?
2018-03-11T12:28:16Z wasamasa: conses
2018-03-11T12:28:16Z siraben: e.g. (a . b) vs (a b)
2018-03-11T12:28:26Z wasamasa: ever used an alist?
2018-03-11T12:28:29Z siraben: I'm aware that to get the second element in the second list you do cadr
2018-03-11T12:28:30Z siraben: Yes
2018-03-11T12:28:36Z siraben: Vs cdr for the list
2018-03-11T12:28:40Z siraben: the first list
2018-03-11T12:29:00Z siraben: rudybot: eval (cdr '(a . b))
2018-03-11T12:29:00Z rudybot: siraben: ; Value: 'b
2018-03-11T12:29:03Z siraben: rudybot: eval (cdr '(a b))
2018-03-11T12:29:03Z rudybot: siraben: ; Value: '(b)
2018-03-11T12:29:18Z siraben: Why not just do
2018-03-11T12:29:21Z siraben: rudybot: eval (cadr '(a b))
2018-03-11T12:29:21Z rudybot: siraben: ; Value: 'b
2018-03-11T12:29:25Z siraben: cadr
2018-03-11T12:37:11Z pjb: siraben: you're asking the wrong question. dot-notation is only a syntactical representation.
2018-03-11T12:37:45Z pjb: siraben: the question you should ask yourself, is what are the advantage of lists built from cons cells vs. lists built otherwise.
2018-03-11T12:40:42Z vyzo: siraben: cadr is less efficient than cdr, as it is (car (cdr <>))
2018-03-11T12:42:37Z elly: and also '(a b), in a lot of implementations, requires more storage than '(a . b), since the former is (cons a (cons b null)) and the latter is (cons a b)
2018-03-11T12:43:20Z siraben: I see
2018-03-11T12:43:30Z elly: since pairs that are not lists are widely used (eg for alists), it's helpful to have a syntax to construct them
2018-03-11T12:43:41Z siraben: Right
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2018-03-11T12:43:55Z siraben: I think SICP doesn't use dot notation at all
2018-03-11T12:44:03Z elly: that wouldn't surprise me
2018-03-11T12:44:04Z siraben: I recall a lot of cadr
2018-03-11T12:44:10Z pjb: siraben: read AIM-8, notably the last section.
2018-03-11T12:44:14Z wasamasa: it uses lots of pairs though
2018-03-11T12:44:25Z siraben: pjb: What is AIM-8
2018-03-11T12:44:31Z elly: pjb: the Binary Lisp section?
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2018-03-11T12:44:37Z elly: siraben: ftp://publications.ai.mit.edu/ai-publications/pdf/AIM-008.pdf
2018-03-11T12:44:41Z elly: the original lisp paper
2018-03-11T12:44:44Z pjb: yes.
2018-03-11T12:44:53Z pjb: http://www.informatimago.com/develop/lisp/com/informatimago/small-cl-pgms/aim-8/aim-8.html
2018-03-11T12:45:17Z elly: I don't think 4.2 does a good job of explaining why dot notation exists?
2018-03-11T12:46:11Z pjb: You're assuming lists are fundamental. They're not.  cons cells are the fundamental structure.
2018-03-11T12:46:23Z pjb: The dot notation exists because it's the syntax for cons cells.
2018-03-11T12:46:34Z elly: ah
2018-03-11T12:47:02Z pjb: and (a b) requires more storage than (a . b) in ALL implementations!
2018-03-11T12:47:06Z siraben: Ah I say that's why
2018-03-11T12:47:12Z siraben: Right
2018-03-11T12:47:17Z siraben: Even in my own lol
2018-03-11T12:47:34Z siraben: But mine prints (a b) the same as (a . b) -> as (a b)
2018-03-11T12:47:41Z siraben: I'll fix that
2018-03-11T12:48:02Z elly: ah, yes, those are very different
2018-03-11T12:48:14Z pjb: (a b) is (a . (b . ()))
2018-03-11T12:48:18Z siraben: Right
2018-03-11T12:48:29Z siraben: But I read it as (cons a (cons b ()))
2018-03-11T12:48:37Z pjb: This is wrong.
2018-03-11T12:48:54Z siraben: Ok
2018-03-11T12:49:12Z elly: hm? (a . (b . ()) and (cons a (cons b ())) are synonyms though?
2018-03-11T12:49:19Z pjb: (cons a (cons b ())) is (cons . (a . ((cons . (b . (() . ()))) . ())))
2018-03-11T12:49:29Z pjb: (cons a (cons b ())) evaluates to (a b)
2018-03-11T12:49:43Z siraben: I see
2018-03-11T12:49:47Z pjb: elly: there's not synonyms at all, they're entirely different.
2018-03-11T12:50:22Z elly: I do not understand how
2018-03-11T12:50:23Z siraben: But can't (a . b) be seen as (a . (. . (b . ())))
2018-03-11T12:50:34Z pjb: (equal? '(a . (b . ()))  '(cons a (cons b ()))) --> #f
2018-03-11T12:50:44Z pjb: siraben: illegal syntax.
2018-03-11T12:50:56Z siraben: Obvious if you quoted them they aren't equal
2018-03-11T12:51:03Z siraben: What I meant was how one constructs (a b)
2018-03-11T12:51:15Z pjb: siraben: literal data is always quoted!
2018-03-11T12:51:23Z pjb: (list 'a 'b) #| --> (a b) |#
2018-03-11T12:51:34Z siraben: Yes
2018-03-11T12:51:42Z siraben: So does (quote (a b))
2018-03-11T12:51:46Z pjb: Yes.
2018-03-11T12:51:56Z siraben: Does SICP even use dot notation?
2018-03-11T12:51:58Z siraben: I don't recall it
2018-03-11T12:52:09Z siraben: Thanks for telling me about it pjb
2018-03-11T12:52:15Z siraben: It confused me for a bit
2018-03-11T12:52:16Z pjb: sicp doesn't teach scheme.
2018-03-11T12:52:21Z pjb: sicp teaches abstraction.
2018-03-11T12:52:27Z siraben: Right, it happens to use scheme
2018-03-11T12:52:41Z siraben: To convey those concepts
2018-03-11T12:53:38Z elly: pjb: yeah, but, (equal? '(1 . (2 . ())) (cons 1 (cons 2 '()))) --> #t
2018-03-11T12:54:06Z pjb: Yes, this is why we say that (cons 1 (cons 2 '())) EVALUATES TO (1 . (2 . ())), and not that it IS it.
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2018-03-11T12:54:45Z elly: fair enough
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2018-03-11T12:56:41Z siraben: eval (equal? '5 5)
2018-03-11T12:56:46Z siraben: rudybot: eval (equal? '5 5)
2018-03-11T12:56:46Z rudybot: siraben: ; Value: #t
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2018-03-11T12:57:03Z siraben: rudybot: eval (equal? 'x (lambda () 'x))
2018-03-11T12:57:03Z rudybot: siraben: ; Value: #f
2018-03-11T12:57:05Z pjb: perfectly!  '5 returns 5 as is.  5 evaluates to 5 itself.
2018-03-11T12:57:19Z pjb: two different paths in the eval function.
2018-03-11T12:57:23Z siraben: Whereas (lambda () 'x) is a procedure
2018-03-11T12:57:34Z pjb: no.
2018-03-11T12:57:36Z pjb: It's a list.
2018-03-11T12:57:37Z siraben: rudybot: eval (eq? 'x (lambda () 'x))
2018-03-11T12:57:37Z rudybot: siraben: ; Value: #f
2018-03-11T12:57:45Z siraben: That evaluates to a procedure
2018-03-11T12:57:47Z pjb: (list? '(lambda () 'x)) -> #t
2018-03-11T12:57:52Z pjb: yes. it evaluates to a procedure.
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2018-03-11T12:58:09Z siraben: Well if you quote anything it's a symbol or list
2018-03-11T12:58:28Z pjb: be careful, because you could pass it to a macro that doesn't evaluate it!
2018-03-11T12:58:31Z siraben: rudybot: eval (symbol? '())
2018-03-11T12:58:31Z rudybot: siraben: ; Value: #f
2018-03-11T12:58:34Z siraben: rudybot: eval (list? '())
2018-03-11T12:58:34Z rudybot: siraben: ; Value: #t
2018-03-11T12:58:45Z siraben: rudybot: eval (list? '(a . (b . ())))
2018-03-11T12:58:46Z rudybot: siraben: ; Value: #t
2018-03-11T12:58:49Z siraben: rudybot: eval (list? (a . (b . ())))
2018-03-11T12:58:49Z rudybot: siraben: error: a: undefined; <NEWLINE>  cannot reference an identifier before its definition <NEWLINE>   in module: 'program
2018-03-11T12:58:50Z pjb: so it's not if we quote it, because in those cases, if we don't quote it, it IS EVALUATED!
2018-03-11T12:59:02Z pjb: So the important thing is really EVALUATES TO.
2018-03-11T12:59:04Z siraben: Yes
2018-03-11T12:59:14Z pjb: Now, you can also see it without quoting, by reading it instead.
2018-03-11T12:59:36Z pjb: (equal? (read) (read)) RET (cons 'a 'b) RET (a . b) RET
2018-03-11T13:00:00Z siraben: They would be equal
2018-03-11T13:00:06Z pjb: Obviously not.
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2018-03-11T13:00:17Z pjb: because we've not evaluated the list of 3 elements!
2018-03-11T13:00:21Z siraben: Well because (a . b) does not evaluate to (a . b)
2018-03-11T13:00:28Z siraben: But (cons 'a 'b) does
2018-03-11T13:00:40Z pjb: bot in (equal? (read) (read)) there is no evaluation!
2018-03-11T13:00:44Z pjb: but
2018-03-11T13:00:55Z siraben: So obviously they're not equal!
2018-03-11T13:01:02Z siraben: Because they're quoted
2018-03-11T13:01:12Z pjb: yes, they ARE not equal.  the one IS not the other.
2018-03-11T13:01:21Z siraben: Yes yes
2018-03-11T13:01:40Z pjb: Is it is important to distinguish IS from EVALUATES TO.
2018-03-11T13:01:45Z siraben: So a quine would be a thing that satisfies (equal? x (x))
2018-03-11T13:01:51Z pjb: yes.
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2018-03-11T13:02:32Z siraben: A twine would be two procedures x and y that (and (equal? x (y)) (equal? y (x)) (not (equal? x y)))
2018-03-11T13:02:36Z siraben: Sorry two lists
2018-03-11T13:02:45Z siraben: Two lists that evaluate to each other
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2018-03-11T13:04:11Z pjb: and you can generalize it to Nwine.
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2018-03-11T13:04:52Z siraben: https://github.com/mame/quine-relay
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2018-03-11T13:17:09Z faLUCE: Hello. In this way:   (set! elems1 (cons y elems1))       I add y to the begin of elems1. How can I add y to the end of elems1 ?
2018-03-11T13:17:29Z faLUCE: I can do    (set! elems1 (append elems1 (list y)))  but it appends a list to a list
2018-03-11T13:17:49Z faLUCE: I don't want to append a list, but only an element
2018-03-11T13:18:03Z wasamasa: why do you reject a perfectly fine working way?
2018-03-11T13:18:31Z faLUCE: wasamasa: because I don't want to create a new list while appending
2018-03-11T13:18:36Z wasamasa: lol
2018-03-11T13:18:45Z wasamasa: you're creating a new list all the time
2018-03-11T13:18:51Z wasamasa: what do you think append does
2018-03-11T13:19:15Z faLUCE: wasamasa: it appends a list to a list.
2018-03-11T13:19:36Z wasamasa: it creates a new list that consists of its concatenated arguments
2018-03-11T13:19:39Z faLUCE: instead cons adds an element to a list (at the begin)
2018-03-11T13:20:02Z wasamasa: cons creates a new list consisting of an item and another list
2018-03-11T13:20:11Z wasamasa: and so do many more
2018-03-11T13:20:22Z faLUCE: wasamasa: I want to create a new list consisting of a list and an item
2018-03-11T13:20:38Z faLUCE: not a new list consisting of a list and a list
2018-03-11T13:20:58Z faLUCE: what you don't understand?
2018-03-11T13:20:58Z wasamasa: you seem to not get the meaning of concatenation
2018-03-11T13:21:34Z wasamasa: rudybot: eval (append '(1 2 3) '(4))
2018-03-11T13:21:36Z rudybot: wasamasa: your sandbox is ready
2018-03-11T13:21:36Z rudybot: wasamasa: ; Value: '(1 2 3 4)
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2018-03-11T13:23:43Z faLUCE: I see, sorry
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2018-03-11T13:32:02Z siraben: faLUCE: You can define append if that helps
2018-03-11T13:32:23Z vyzo: you can also define append! if you want to be gross
2018-03-11T13:32:31Z siraben: eval (begin (define (append l m)
2018-03-11T13:32:31Z siraben:  (if (null? l) m
2018-03-11T13:32:31Z siraben:   (cons (car l) (append (cdr l) m))) (append '(a b c) '(d e f)))
2018-03-11T13:32:34Z siraben: eval (begin (define (append l m)
2018-03-11T13:32:34Z siraben:  (if (null? l) m
2018-03-11T13:32:37Z siraben:   (cons (car l) (append (cdr l) m))) (append '(a b c) '(d e f))))
2018-03-11T13:32:39Z siraben: rudybot: eval (begin (define (append l m)
2018-03-11T13:32:39Z rudybot: siraben: error: eval:1:7: read: expected a `)' to close `('
2018-03-11T13:32:42Z siraben:  (if (null? l) m
2018-03-11T13:32:46Z siraben:   (cons (car l) (append (cdr l) m))) (append '(a b c) '(d e f))))
2018-03-11T13:32:49Z wasamasa: use a pastebin
2018-03-11T13:32:53Z siraben: rudybot: eval (begin (define (append l m)
2018-03-11T13:32:54Z rudybot: siraben: error: eval:1:7: read: expected a `)' to close `('
2018-03-11T13:32:56Z siraben:  (if (null? l) m
2018-03-11T13:32:57Z siraben:   (cons (car l) (append (cdr l) m)))) (append '(a b c) '(d e f)))
2018-03-11T13:33:00Z siraben: Sorry ok
2018-03-11T13:33:44Z siraben: https://hastebin.com/ugutevuhed.scm
2018-03-11T13:33:50Z siraben: This is an example definition of append
2018-03-11T13:35:17Z siraben: faLUCE: Mutation isn't that useful, what context are you trying to mutate the value of elems1?
2018-03-11T13:35:24Z siraben: in what context*
2018-03-11T13:36:09Z wasamasa: the context of a beginner trying to implement the idioms of their previous programming language
2018-03-11T13:44:15Z siraben: That was my experience with Haskell at first
2018-03-11T13:44:17Z siraben: x=4
2018-03-11T13:44:23Z siraben: What if I need to make x=5 ???
2018-03-11T13:44:50Z wasamasa: you don't reassign in haskell either
2018-03-11T13:44:55Z siraben: Right
2018-03-11T13:44:59Z siraben: It doesn't allow you to in fact
2018-03-11T13:45:07Z siraben: In Scheme there's set!
2018-03-11T13:45:40Z wasamasa: yes and you rarely if ever use it
2018-03-11T13:46:01Z wasamasa: for the simple reason that it makes your programs needlessly hard to comprehend
2018-03-11T13:46:04Z siraben: In SICP set! was used to change local state of a bank account object
2018-03-11T13:46:14Z siraben: In small amounts it's useful
2018-03-11T13:46:20Z siraben: Otherwise no
2018-03-11T13:46:35Z wasamasa: it's only introduced in the third chapter
2018-03-11T13:46:47Z siraben: Yeah
2018-03-11T13:46:51Z siraben: And not really used again
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2018-03-11T13:56:33Z vyzo: set! is incredibly useful for local state
2018-03-11T13:56:38Z vyzo: please don't bad mouth it
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2018-03-11T14:01:04Z siraben: I didn't say it was bad for local state
2018-03-11T14:01:08Z siraben: It's amazing for local state
2018-03-11T14:01:17Z siraben: But not in many cases
2018-03-11T14:01:29Z siraben: Local state usually appears with OOP and message passing
2018-03-11T14:01:35Z vyzo: yes
2018-03-11T14:02:00Z vyzo: but on a whole lot of other complicated functions as well
2018-03-11T14:02:07Z vyzo: in
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2018-03-11T14:07:39Z siraben: Such as?
2018-03-11T14:08:12Z vyzo: parsers for example
2018-03-11T14:08:21Z vyzo: or other functions that involve i/o with many local functions
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2018-03-11T14:19:33Z pjb: faLUCE: try: (let* ((original-list (list 2 3 4))  (elems1 original-list))  (set! elems1 (cons 1 elems1)) (display (list 'elems1 elems1)) (newline) (display (list 'original-list original-list)) (newline))
2018-03-11T14:19:52Z siraben: vyzo: What scheme would allow me good interop with C programs? Guile?
2018-03-11T14:20:29Z pjb: faLUCE: append makes a copy of the first arguments to avoid mutating them.  If you want to mutate the list, you should first consider that you cannot mutate the empty list. The empty list is not a pair, it's immutable!
2018-03-11T14:21:12Z pjb: faLUCE: then if you insist, and consider only non-empty lists, then you can seek the last cons cell O(n), and set its cdr to a new cons.
2018-03-11T14:21:52Z pjb: faLUCE: in any case, it's slow. consing to the head is O(1) and should be prefered.  Even if at the end you have to reverse the consed list to get the elements in the other order, it'll be faster.
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2018-03-11T14:27:55Z faLUCE: thanks pjb, I read carefully that
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2018-03-11T14:29:38Z vyzo: siraben: it depends on how you want to interop
2018-03-11T14:29:51Z vyzo: if you want to call C from Scheme and do upcalls, then Gerbil/Gambit support this very well
2018-03-11T14:29:54Z wasamasa: siraben: CHICKEN is nice for writing wrappers to C libraries, the embedding side however...
2018-03-11T14:30:08Z vyzo: if you want to embed Scheme in C then something like guile or chibi is probably best
2018-03-11T14:30:22Z vyzo: wasamasa: Gerbil is on the same boat
2018-03-11T14:30:29Z vyzo: our schemes like to be in control!
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2018-03-11T14:48:40Z foof`: ecraven: chibi-version is now exported from (chibi ast)
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2018-03-11T14:53:53Z qu1j0t3:    wasamasa | siraben, qu1j0t3: did you guys just establish that there are no good books for learning scheme?  // Absolutely not
2018-03-11T14:54:02Z wasamasa: https://i.imgur.com/Ve2OHuM.jpg
2018-03-11T14:54:05Z qu1j0t3: I recommended one, i can recommend more
2018-03-11T14:55:37Z siraben: That's kinda sad, maybe it says something about scheme itself
2018-03-11T14:56:33Z siraben: It seems that if you want to learn scheme, you would already have programming background
2018-03-11T14:58:47Z pjb: That's true of all programming languages.
2018-03-11T14:58:59Z pjb: Happily, you can learn the programming background while learning the language.
2018-03-11T14:59:04Z siraben: What is a good book for learning any programming language?
2018-03-11T14:59:13Z pjb: There are  HTDT and The Little Schemer.
2018-03-11T14:59:28Z siraben: HtDT is like SICP, is it not?
2018-03-11T14:59:29Z pjb: for any programming language, there's SICP.
2018-03-11T14:59:40Z pjb: No, HTDT is to learn scheme. SICP is to learn programming.
2018-03-11T14:59:50Z siraben: I see
2018-03-11T15:00:19Z siraben: That's really weird I thought SICP was to teach Scheme but one actually spends most of the time thinking about concepts
2018-03-11T15:00:36Z pjb: Nope, sicp doesn't teach scheme. It teaches programming
2018-03-11T15:01:38Z pjb: Perhaps you should study HTDT first, and SICP second.  You could also start with The Little Schemer.
2018-03-11T15:01:53Z siraben: Argh I've already almost finished SICP lol
2018-03-11T15:01:59Z siraben: I'll try HTDT
2018-03-11T15:02:02Z siraben: Is there a PDF?
2018-03-11T15:02:08Z siraben: Ik there's a webpage
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2018-03-11T15:08:50Z siraben: pjb: HTDP is making rounds in Hacker News: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16561815
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2018-03-11T15:52:17Z faLUCE: (map (lambda (x)  (if (equal? "foo" x)   ......   ) myList))   <---- is it possible to remove x from myList if (equal? "foo" x), inside the lambda iteration ?
2018-03-11T15:55:23Z pjb: (delete "foo" '("ab" "foo" "bar"))
2018-03-11T15:55:46Z pjb: faLUCE: you should read r5rs, it's not even 50 pages!
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2018-03-11T15:57:33Z pjb: faLUCE: also, you could have a look at Common Lisp, which has functions such as mapcan and mapcon, which you could implement in scheme.
2018-03-11T16:00:22Z faLUCE: pjb: ok. And what if I want to insert "fred" at x position, while iterating?
2018-03-11T16:00:24Z ski: rudybot: eval (filter (lambda (x) (not (equal? "foo" x))) '("ab" "foo" "bar" "foo"))
2018-03-11T16:00:24Z rudybot: ski: ; Value: '("ab" "bar")
2018-03-11T16:00:31Z ski: rudybot: eval (delete "foo" '("ab" "foo" "bar" "foo"))
2018-03-11T16:00:31Z rudybot: ski: ; Value: '("ab" "bar")
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2018-03-11T16:02:29Z pjb: faLUCE: you would have to read very closely the standard you're using.  In the case of Common Lisp, you wouldn't be allowed to modify the cdr of the list.
2018-03-11T16:02:43Z ski: faLUCE : perhaps "SRFI 1: List Library" by Olin Shivers in 1999-10-09 at <https://srfi.schemers.org/srfi-1/srfi-1.html> could be interesting
2018-03-11T16:03:36Z ski: pjb : is it true that CL `append' copies its last argument ?
2018-03-11T16:04:02Z pjb: No, only the previous.
2018-03-11T16:04:18Z faLUCE: it's very hard to manipulate a list while iterating, in scheme....
2018-03-11T16:04:21Z pjb: the last argument is shared.
2018-03-11T16:04:39Z pjb: faLUCE: read sicp.  Just implement the abstractions that will make it easy!
2018-03-11T16:04:43Z ski: ok, someone seemed to suggest this, the other day, so i wondered
2018-03-11T16:05:11Z pjb: ski: up to the point that you can make a dotted list with append: (append '(1 2 3) 4) #| --> (1 2 3 . 4) |#
2018-03-11T16:06:20Z ski: faLUCE : for insertion, i suppose i'd either use `split-at', or use a fold or unfold, or make a manual loop (like named-`let' or one of the looping macros, like `do' or foof-loop or loopy-loop)
2018-03-11T16:06:28Z ski: pjb : *nod*
2018-03-11T16:06:54Z pjb: In general, it's better and easier to just build a new list. Be functional!
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2018-03-11T16:07:56Z faLUCE: (map (lambda (x)  (if (equal? "foo" x)   (set! fooList (delete x fooList))    ) myList))   <--- this doesn't remove the current "foo". It deletes all the "foo" item in one go
2018-03-11T16:08:46Z faLUCE: I thought that this was a loop
2018-03-11T16:08:48Z pjb: yeah, scheme is so limited.  In Common Lisp, you'd write (delete x fooList :count 1) to remove only one element.  I would suggest to implement such a sophisticated delete function.
2018-03-11T16:09:06Z ski assumed that faLUCE meant making a new list, when they talked about insertion
2018-03-11T16:09:47Z ski: faLUCE : that `set!' only affects the local parameter of the callback function given to `map', it doesn't affect `myList'
2018-03-11T16:10:05Z ski: (fwiw, i think the naming convention `my-list' would be more consistent with common Scheme style)
2018-03-11T16:10:21Z faLUCE: so, you say that I have to make an empty listand populate it with myList elems?
2018-03-11T16:10:27Z pjb: yes.
2018-03-11T16:11:14Z ski: er, sorry, for some reason i misread you as `set!'ing the parameter. but now i see the parameter is `x', but you're `set!'ing `fooList' (which i'm not sure how it relates to `myList')
2018-03-11T16:12:35Z pjb: (let ((result '()))  (dolist (x myList) (cond ((p1? x) (set! result (cons 'replace (cons 'elements result)))) ((p2? x) #| delete it by doing nothing |#) (else (set! result (cons x result))))) (reverse! result))
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2018-03-11T16:17:33Z ski: rudybot: eval (define (insert-at lis i elt) (receive (front back) (split-at lis i) (append front (list elt) back)))
2018-03-11T16:17:33Z rudybot: ski: Done.
2018-03-11T16:17:40Z ski: rudybot: eval (insert-at '("foo" "bar" "baz" "quux") 2 "frob")
2018-03-11T16:17:40Z rudybot: ski: ; Value: '("foo" "bar" "frob" "baz" "quux")
2018-03-11T16:17:57Z ski: faLUCE : how about that ^ ?
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2018-03-11T16:19:06Z pjb: You can make it prettier using a named let of course (thus avoiding set!).
2018-03-11T16:19:19Z ski: (that's using <https://srfi.schemers.org/srfi-8/srfi-8.html> for the `receive' form. instead of `(receive <formals> <expression> <body>)', you could use a call `(call-with-values (lambda () <expression>) (lambda <formals> <body>))')
2018-03-11T16:20:00Z faLUCE: ski: it inserts a value at a given position... but I want to insert a value at the current position (while iterating)
2018-03-11T16:20:18Z ski: what's the difference ?
2018-03-11T16:20:29Z ski: do you want to insert a value at every position ?
2018-03-11T16:20:46Z ski: do you want to *replace* a value, at some position ?
2018-03-11T16:21:22Z pjb: and if you really want to mutate the list, you can always start with (let ((result (copy-list  my-list))) …)  but it will be way slower, and way more difficult to write correctly.
2018-03-11T16:21:22Z faLUCE: (map (lambda (x)  (if (equal? "foo" x)  ... I wanto to insert a new value at THIS (current) position ....   ) myList))
2018-03-11T16:21:40Z ski: `map' doesn't insert (nor replace) values
2018-03-11T16:21:58Z ski: well, it replaces all values (you can't select)
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2018-03-11T16:22:24Z ski: but `map' on one list gives back a new list of the same length, you can't insert using `map'
2018-03-11T16:22:26Z faLUCE: then which iterator syntax do I have to use? is there something like for ?
2018-03-11T16:22:55Z pjb: faLUCE: the problem is that you want to mutate the list you're iterating on!
2018-03-11T16:23:01Z pjb: Don't do that.
2018-03-11T16:23:05Z ski: <ski> faLUCE : for insertion, i suppose i'd either use `split-at', or use a fold or unfold, or make a manual loop (like named-`let' or one of the looping macros, like `do' or foof-loop or loopy-loop)
2018-03-11T16:23:05Z pjb: Whatever you do, don't do that.
2018-03-11T16:23:29Z ski: (my definition of `insert-at', above, uses `split-at')
2018-03-11T16:23:52Z faLUCE: I see. so, I have to copy, and while copying use "append"
2018-03-11T16:24:02Z pjb: Don't use append.
2018-03-11T16:24:17Z pjb: append is O(n). In a loop, you get O(n^2).
2018-03-11T16:24:52Z pjb: This is why you should not use insert-at or split-at either, they're O(n) too!
2018-03-11T16:26:22Z ski: well, it's not clear to me whether faLUCE wants to do multiple insertions, or just one
2018-03-11T16:29:02Z faLUCE: ski: multiple
2018-03-11T16:29:52Z pjb: Don't try to mutate thing, it's inefficient, and error prone.  Consider writing a pure function that will produce a new list from the old list.
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2018-03-11T16:32:10Z faLUCE: yes
2018-03-11T16:32:16Z ski: rudybot: eval (define (insert-after pred lis elt) (let loop ((lis lis)) (cond ((null? lis) '()) ((pair? lis) (let ((hd (car lis)) (tl (cdr lis))) (cons hd (if (pred hd) (cons elt (loop tl)) (loop tl))))))))
2018-03-11T16:32:17Z rudybot: ski: Done.
2018-03-11T16:32:22Z ski: rudybot: eval (insert-after (lambda (x) (equal? "foo" x)) '("ab" "foo" "bar" "foo") "barf")
2018-03-11T16:32:23Z rudybot: ski: ; Value: '("ab" "foo" "barf" "bar" "foo" "barf")
2018-03-11T16:33:01Z ski: the definition of `insert-after' uses a named-`let'. it would probably look nicer using foof-loop
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2018-03-11T16:33:23Z faLUCE: (map (lambda (x)  (if (equal? "foo" x)  ... how to add x at the end of myList2  ....   ) myList1))
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2018-03-11T16:33:29Z faLUCE: ?
2018-03-11T16:33:39Z pjb: You don't.
2018-03-11T16:33:44Z pjb: Add it in front!
2018-03-11T16:33:54Z pjb: I've told you, append is O(n)!  cons is O(1).
2018-03-11T16:33:58Z ski:   (append myList2 (list x))  ; but as pjb says, adding at end of a list isn't good
2018-03-11T16:34:30Z faLUCE: pjb: ok, but if I add it in front, the result is with a reverse order of itemes
2018-03-11T16:34:32Z faLUCE: pjb: ok, but if I add it in front, the result is with a reverse order of items
2018-03-11T16:34:51Z pjb: yes. Then you can use reverse! at the end.  Don't you read my messages???
2018-03-11T16:35:00Z ski: or, often you can combine your "incremental updates" together, making a function that computes the new list incorporating all the changes, in one go
2018-03-11T16:35:08Z faLUCE: sorry I did not read the part with reverse
2018-03-11T16:38:46Z faLUCE: Ok, got the result with reverse.  Thanks all. Not easy, though! I could not imagine that I had to do that
2018-03-11T16:39:24Z ski: an alternative would be to use `set-cdr!', to build the list from head-towards-end, rather than the other way around (with a final reverse, in your case)
2018-03-11T16:39:35Z faLUCE: anyway, this is a very strange language
2018-03-11T16:39:50Z ski: (or, to rely on TCMC, if your implementation has that. most implementations don't, though)
2018-03-11T16:39:53Z ski: how so ?
2018-03-11T16:40:12Z faLUCE: I mean, it confuses a lot if you usually code in other languages (c, c++, python etc.)
2018-03-11T16:40:20Z pjb: It's much easier than the other solution. You can keep a reference to the last cons cell of the list you're building and use mutation to add conses in O(1).  Try it. It's harder.  Also, since () is not mutable, you need to special case or use a guard cons cell for the start.  And foremost: it is not faster than cons + reverse! at the end!
2018-03-11T16:40:30Z ski: perhaps most of the programming languages you've seen before are all in some basic sense the same thing, with some surface variations
2018-03-11T16:41:07Z faLUCE: ski: exactly
2018-03-11T16:41:38Z ski: faLUCE : yes. those languages are all imperative languages. from some POV, they're all the same. if you're learning a language that is meant to express a different programming paradigm (such as functional programming, or logic programming, or dataflow, or ...), then that is more like learning to program from scratch all over again
2018-03-11T16:42:51Z ski: (of course some things do carry over, but not as much as if you learn a new language in the same paradigm. so it's a good mindset to come at it with a fresh mind, expecting to unlearn much/most of what you know about programming, not comparing too much with what you know, until you have some more basic experience under your belt)
2018-03-11T16:43:39Z faLUCE: ski: exactly. But I don't understand why the logic of scheme is so different than other languages... what's the purpose?
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2018-03-11T16:44:25Z wasamasa: being as simple as possible
2018-03-11T16:44:30Z ski: faLUCE : if you had tried Erlang, or SML, or F#, or Haskell, or O'Caml, or Clean, you'd know that the "logic of scheme" isn't that different from these languages
2018-03-11T16:44:32Z wasamasa: note that simple != easy
2018-03-11T16:44:45Z faLUCE: I see
2018-03-11T16:44:49Z pjb: faLUCE: it's not different. It's exactly the same.  Only you've been an execrable programmer in the other programming languages, and nobody told you.
2018-03-11T16:44:55Z pjb: Don't use mutation in C either!
2018-03-11T16:45:10Z ski: faLUCE : the purpose is expressing another outlook on what programming might be, another way of approaching problems and their solutions, expressing another programming paradigm
2018-03-11T16:45:17Z wasamasa: chances are you never encountered a linked list before
2018-03-11T16:45:53Z ski: faLUCE : with more *different* ways to approach programming, you have more POVs, more tools, to attack problems with. this will probably be helpful, even if you don't use Scheme (or whatever) that much later
2018-03-11T16:45:58Z qu1j0t3: ^
2018-03-11T16:48:46Z pjb: For example, I'm sure you C code is full of . of -> of [] etc?  When you should have been using functional abstractions!
2018-03-11T16:49:04Z ski idly wonders whether faLUCE has taken a peek at SICP, yet
2018-03-11T16:49:09Z pjb: don't write pt->x !  Write point_x(pt)
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2018-03-11T16:57:05Z faLUCE: well, I have to do some scheme stuff because I use lilypond. I don't understand why they used scheme instead of other scripting languages, for extending lilypond
2018-03-11T16:59:31Z ski: presumably they thought Scheme was neat, and useful for such a task
2018-03-11T17:00:06Z ski should try to get more into Lilypond
2018-03-11T17:02:12Z qu1j0t3: faLUCE: small, easy to embed, simple programmer model.
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2018-03-11T17:05:56Z Zipheir: The weird thing about lilypond is that it has an embedded language at all. It's just a compiler, albeit an oddly-flavored one.
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2018-03-11T17:10:30Z faLUCE: Zipheir: exactly. In fact the pair scheme-lilypond is not good at all
2018-03-11T17:10:41Z faLUCE: although it is very powerful
2018-03-11T17:13:15Z Zipheir: faLUCE: Is that project still active? I noticed Debian and related distros no longer package it, probably because they still use Guile 1.n
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2018-03-11T17:23:08Z faLUCE: yes, it's active and really powerful
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2018-03-11T18:23:51Z Duns_Scrotus: pjb: are you being serious
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2018-03-11T18:38:02Z ecraven: foof`: perfect, thank you!
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2018-03-11T23:11:03Z catern: hey #scheme, do you have any suggestions/papers/lists of good semi-practical or mindblowing examples of usage of delimited continuations?
2018-03-11T23:11:12Z catern: preferably one-shot delimited continuations, multi-prompt is fine
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2018-03-12T00:22:40Z daviid: catern: no sure it answers your quiz, but ... wikipedia has a few examples and links ...
2018-03-12T00:23:57Z daviid: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Delimited_continuation
2018-03-12T00:38:45Z faLUCE: is it possible to break a (map (lambda (x) ...))  iteration?
2018-03-12T00:39:15Z qu1j0t3: you might want general recursion
2018-03-12T00:39:23Z qu1j0t3: you can't "break" in map and still have a functional program
2018-03-12T00:39:29Z qu1j0t3: (take that in whatever sense you like :-)
2018-03-12T00:39:36Z faLUCE: qu1j0t3: what can I use for general recursion ?
2018-03-12T00:39:49Z faLUCE: I mean: what is the "for" loop in scheme
2018-03-12T00:39:51Z faLUCE: ?
2018-03-12T00:39:59Z qu1j0t3: = general recursion
2018-03-12T00:40:24Z qu1j0t3: i.e. just make a recursive function call. you often do this with a lambda bound using LET
2018-03-12T00:40:50Z qu1j0t3: the arguments to the lambda are the state being maintained
2018-03-12T00:41:30Z qu1j0t3: this is as general as FOR because you can do whatever arbitrary logic you like in the lambda before deciding whether to make a recursive call, or produce your base case
2018-03-12T00:42:11Z qu1j0t3: but in many cases you don't need general recursion
2018-03-12T00:42:32Z qu1j0t3: then we use a HOF like MAP or FILTER, or something out of the standard library
2018-03-12T00:42:35Z qu1j0t3: or a fold
2018-03-12T00:42:51Z faLUCE: well, how can I iterate myList and stop iterating if current element is equal "foo" ?
2018-03-12T00:43:18Z qu1j0t3: your base case is end of list OR equal-to-"foo"; your recursive case is non-empty list and you haven't found "foo".
2018-03-12T00:43:29Z qu1j0t3: this is very natural to write over a CONS list.
2018-03-12T00:43:33Z qu1j0t3: good basic recursive exercise.
2018-03-12T00:44:05Z qu1j0t3: however, it's also probably in the standard library...
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2018-03-12T00:55:57Z elly: you can also use named let for something like that - that is what I would use
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2018-03-12T00:59:18Z qu1j0t3: yes
2018-03-12T00:59:31Z qu1j0t3: also what i would use
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2018-03-12T04:02:48Z ghostyy: is there a scheme implementation somewhere that has something like defmaacro (unhygienic macro support)?
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2018-03-12T04:22:06Z jcowan: ghostyy: Guile
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2018-03-12T04:22:21Z jcowan: but it's kinda fake, it's really syntax-case under the covers
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2018-03-12T04:23:36Z jcowan: also any explicit renaming implementation can do defmacro by not renaming anything
2018-03-12T04:23:42Z jcowan: Chicken, for example
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2018-03-12T04:53:51Z Fare: ghostyy, gambit has defmacro. It also has syntax-case as a library.
2018-03-12T04:54:20Z ghostyy: ah, cool, thanks!
2018-03-12T04:54:31Z Fare: and of course, it has gerbil which is syntax-case plus a PLT-like module system.
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2018-03-12T06:25:17Z ecraven: faLUCE: I often use named let for for-loop-like things
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2018-03-12T13:58:52Z qu1j0t3: three votes and counting
2018-03-12T13:59:45Z gwatt: ?
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2018-03-12T17:41:52Z asarch: A binary created with a scheme implementation can be used in another different implementation?
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2018-03-12T17:46:15Z gwatt: asarch: probably not
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2018-03-12T17:57:30Z qu1j0t3: for some reason my brain inserted "search" after binary until i rescanned it a couple of times
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2018-03-12T18:05:52Z asarch: Thank you
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2018-03-12T20:35:16Z wasamasa: asarch: what prompts you to this question?
2018-03-12T20:35:29Z wasamasa: asarch: binaries can be many things
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2018-03-12T20:44:37Z asarch: wasamasa, the files from: (compile-file "editor.lisp")
2018-03-12T20:45:04Z wasamasa: asarch: binary is short for binary file
2018-03-12T20:45:11Z wasamasa: asarch: a JPG image is a binary file
2018-03-12T20:45:18Z wasamasa: asarch: so is a dynamically linked library
2018-03-12T20:45:29Z wasamasa: asarch: or a java class file
2018-03-12T20:45:52Z wasamasa: anyway, what defines this compile-file procedure?
2018-03-12T20:46:13Z wasamasa: it's not part of the standard and even if it were that wouldn't mean the exact output is standardized
2018-03-12T20:46:27Z wasamasa: calling it editor.lisp isn't exactly looking like scheme either
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2018-03-12T20:51:51Z jcowan: That sounds like Common Lisp, and even there the answer is no
2018-03-12T20:53:03Z asarch: I know, I know
2018-03-12T20:53:05Z wasamasa: yeah, it would make no sense to standardize that as it would reduce implementations to toy interpreters
2018-03-12T20:53:26Z asarch: It seems that the standard doesn't define the way you get this binary files
2018-03-12T20:53:35Z jcowan: in clisp, the output of compile-file isn't even binary
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2018-03-12T20:54:02Z asarch: So, the file from one implementation cannot be used with another implementation
2018-03-12T20:54:27Z wasamasa: you should look at this C language and what it got to say about actually implementing C
2018-03-12T20:54:33Z asarch: In fact, it even cannot be used with the same implementation
2018-03-12T20:54:52Z wasamasa: now that makes no sense
2018-03-12T20:55:05Z asarch: I just was wondering if I could (compile-file "editor.lisp") and then share this output file
2018-03-12T20:55:16Z wasamasa: you've yet to answer where your compile-file comes from
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2018-03-12T20:55:23Z wasamasa: what implementation defines it?
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2018-03-12T20:56:08Z jcowan: see https://pastebin.com/DLXKi6H0 for a simple .lisp file and it's .fas equivalent
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2018-03-12T20:57:03Z wasamasa: fun
2018-03-12T20:57:36Z wasamasa: so it's lots of symbols and bytecode?
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2018-03-12T21:01:48Z asarch: Oh :-(
2018-03-12T21:02:03Z asarch: Moriturus te saluto.
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2018-03-12T21:02:24Z wasamasa: so, mit-scheme
2018-03-12T21:02:24Z wasamasa: look up its documentation
2018-03-12T21:02:43Z asarch: Ok
2018-03-12T21:02:47Z asarch: Thank you guys
2018-03-12T21:02:53Z asarch: Thank you very much :-)
2018-03-12T21:04:46Z wasamasa: what you have here is something mit-scheme decided to include
2018-03-12T21:04:46Z wasamasa: CHICKEN decided to do the same, but it behaves completely different from mit-scheme
2018-03-12T21:04:46Z wasamasa: in kawa, compile-file creates ZIP archives
2018-03-12T21:07:27Z wasamasa: they just implement what seems sensible to them
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2018-03-12T21:33:51Z asarch: I see
2018-03-12T21:34:03Z asarch: Thank you
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2018-03-12T23:22:15Z faLUCE: hello. How can I define a variable with double quotes?   (define "myvar"  0)   doesn't seem to be accepted
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2018-03-12T23:26:05Z elly: you can't, quotes aren't legal there
2018-03-12T23:26:14Z elly: quotes indicate strings and variable names are symbols, not strings
2018-03-12T23:26:17Z elly: why do you want to do that?
2018-03-12T23:27:09Z jcowan: If you want to get a character into a variable name that is illegal, you can enclose the name in | bars
2018-03-12T23:27:19Z jcowan: (in most Schemes)
2018-03-12T23:29:07Z elly: jcowan: I didn't know that and I kind of wish I still didn't
2018-03-12T23:29:12Z elly: that's gross :P
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2018-03-12T23:30:33Z jcowan: historically it descends from when most Schemes were case-insensitive
2018-03-12T23:31:05Z jcowan: so 'abc => ABC, whereas '|abc| => abc
2018-03-12T23:31:14Z faLUCE: jcowan:  (define |"myvar"| 0 ) ?
2018-03-12T23:31:30Z elly: jcowan: that's *very* weird
2018-03-12T23:31:44Z jcowan: ues
2018-03-12T23:31:45Z jcowan: yes
2018-03-12T23:31:52Z elly: when would one ever want to do that?
2018-03-12T23:31:55Z faLUCE: doesn't work with lilypond
2018-03-12T23:32:09Z faLUCE: elly: it's necessar for lilypond
2018-03-12T23:32:29Z elly: what is a lilypond?
2018-03-12T23:32:52Z faLUCE: elly: http://lilypond.org/
2018-03-12T23:32:59Z elly: ahh
2018-03-12T23:33:06Z elly: it requires variables with quotes in the names?
2018-03-12T23:33:38Z jcowan: except in strict R6RS where it is \x22;myvar\x22; which imo is even worse
2018-03-12T23:34:00Z faLUCE: elly: it uses scheme, and doesn't accept variable with numbers if they're not enclosed with quotes
2018-03-12T23:34:14Z faLUCE: so I have to use quotes
2018-03-12T23:34:21Z elly: O_o
2018-03-12T23:34:57Z faLUCE: jcowan: doesn't work with \x22;
2018-03-12T23:35:05Z faLUCE: damn :-(
2018-03-12T23:35:12Z elly: I'm not surprise the arcane |"x"| syntax doesn't work in a scheme whose tokenizer can't handle numbers in identifiers
2018-03-12T23:36:51Z faLUCE: doesn't work with single quote too
2018-03-12T23:36:54Z jcowan: lilypond is guile
2018-03-12T23:36:59Z jcowan: at least it appears to be
2018-03-12T23:37:19Z jcowan: yes, guile
2018-03-12T23:37:27Z jcowan: so it does support ' and digits in identifiers
2018-03-12T23:37:32Z elly: jcowan: wait, \x22;myvar\x22;?? like... escaped double quote characters and no ||?
2018-03-12T23:37:47Z jcowan: right
2018-03-12T23:37:55Z jcowan: hugly
2018-03-12T23:37:58Z faLUCE: jcowan: so how can I define that var?
2018-03-12T23:38:19Z elly: (define x1 1) ought to just work, if it's guile
2018-03-12T23:38:23Z elly: or similar
2018-03-12T23:38:24Z jcowan: yes
2018-03-12T23:38:35Z faLUCE: yes, you are right
2018-03-12T23:38:36Z faLUCE: thanks
2018-03-12T23:38:38Z jcowan: it's guile 1.8
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2018-03-12T23:39:34Z jcowan: (In SQL, strings are quoted with ' and variable names with ", but people get this wrong so often that SQLite will try to autocorrect if you type the wrong quote
2018-03-12T23:39:36Z jcowan: )
2018-03-12T23:40:35Z jcowan: I think R6RS didn't want people to use | because you can't bounce on it in Emacs
2018-03-12T23:40:43Z elly: bounce on it?
2018-03-12T23:40:49Z jcowan: so |foo bar| doesn't look like a single identifier even though it is
2018-03-12T23:40:49Z elly: oh, to bounce between matching delimiters?
2018-03-12T23:40:54Z jcowan: right
2018-03-12T23:40:56Z jcowan: | does not match |
2018-03-12T23:40:57Z elly: augh
2018-03-12T23:41:06Z elly: but neither does \x22; right?
2018-03-12T23:41:14Z jcowan: so they insisted on foo\x20;bar
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2018-03-12T23:41:27Z elly: ah, yeah
2018-03-12T23:41:36Z elly: does emacs actually treat that correctly as one identifier?
2018-03-12T23:42:06Z turbofail: i thought lilypond has its own weird syntax that gets converted to guile or something
2018-03-12T23:42:21Z jcowan: don't know, not an emacser myself
2018-03-12T23:42:45Z elly: yeah, me either
2018-03-12T23:42:49Z elly: it will have to remain a mystery
2018-03-12T23:43:10Z jcowan: turbofail: there is lexical syntax to embed lilypond code into scheme code
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2018-03-12T23:44:44Z jcowan: but otherwise it looks like ordinary guile to me
2018-03-12T23:45:17Z jcowan: in R7RS you need to use vertical bars to incorporate funny characters or escapes
2018-03-12T23:45:43Z jcowan: so both |foo bar| and |foo\x20;bar| are valid
2018-03-12T23:45:53Z jcowan: but foo\x20;bar is not
2018-03-12T23:47:45Z jcowan: On the other hand you can have lots of cool identifiers like समाधि in either R6RS or R7RS
2018-03-12T23:47:53Z jcowan: ("samadhi")
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2018-03-13T04:13:55Z smokeink: https://mitpress.mit.edu/sicp/full-text/book/book-Z-H-10.html#%_sec_1.1.7  I have a question regarding exercise 1.7: are there any advantages other than speed, for stopping when the change is a very small fraction of the guess instead of stopping when the change < 0.00000001 (let's say) ?
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2018-03-13T05:15:58Z pjb: smokeink: you want to stop when you're close to the expected result.  Perhaps it is 3e-20 ;  0.00000001 is very very big compared to 3e-20.  It's like if you expected the result to be 3, and you stopped when you got 200000000000.
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2018-03-13T05:22:27Z smokeink: pjb: so the right solution is to use a very very small fraction of the guess, like it's done here? : https://codereview.stackexchange.com/questions/169180/sicp-exercise-1-7-better-end-test-for-square-root-approximation
2018-03-13T05:22:27Z rudybot: http://teensy.info/2rAiAxz2Iz
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2018-03-13T05:23:29Z pjb: indeed.
2018-03-13T05:23:44Z smokeink: a fraction like (* guess 0.00000001) would be fine for small numbers, but it wouldn't be good for very big numbers, right?
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2018-03-13T05:24:17Z pjb: Note however, that with ieee floating point numbers, the multiplication may underflow, leading to a 0.0 result.
2018-03-13T05:24:30Z pjb: The test would have to be more sophisticated in a real program.
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2018-03-13T05:27:58Z pjb: smokeink: the precision should also depend on the kind of floating points. If you use ieee754 32-bit, then you have only 24-bit, less than 8 decimal significant digits. With 64-bit you have 53 bits, or a little less than 16 significant digits.
2018-03-13T05:28:10Z pjb: Have a look at: What Every Computer Scientist Should Know About Floating-Point Arithmetic http://docs.oracle.com/cd/E19957-01/806-3568/ncg_goldberg.html   and   What Every Programmer Should Know About Floating-Point Arithmetic http://floating-point-gui.de/
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2018-03-13T05:31:38Z smokeink: thank you
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2018-03-13T06:30:37Z rudybot: la la la
2018-03-13T06:30:46Z duncanm: woohoo, I'm back!
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2018-03-13T06:30:56Z duncanm: I set up irccloud, it's pretty nice
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2018-03-13T15:32:44Z duncanm: it's pretty quiet here nowadays
2018-03-13T15:34:57Z gwatt: It goes in fits and starts
2018-03-13T15:35:49Z gwatt: There are days where nothing happens, and days when you'll walk away for an hour and then see a thousand lines of scrollback
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2018-03-13T15:42:34Z pjb: duncanm: just start asking scheme questions, and it'll be less calm.
2018-03-13T15:43:02Z duncanm: hey @FareTower
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2018-03-13T16:29:31Z FareTower: duncanm, hi!
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2018-03-13T20:15:26Z redjackson: Hello
2018-03-13T20:17:38Z redjackson: I have a question about standard practices
2018-03-13T20:17:57Z redjackson: For example, say that I need to substitute the 3rd element in a string with 'foo
2018-03-13T20:18:19Z redjackson: List, sorry
2018-03-13T20:18:33Z redjackson: Should I roll my own subs-list or use the relevant srfi?
2018-03-13T20:18:57Z redjackson: There is a lot of them, how can I learn which ones are used and look for functions in them?
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2018-03-13T20:26:14Z gwatt: redjackson: srfi 1 is the list srfi, and would have helpful functions for your case
2018-03-13T20:26:47Z redjackson: Thank you, I'll take a look
2018-03-13T20:27:03Z redjackson: Do you know a good read about srfi's besides just clicking them one by one?
2018-03-13T20:27:09Z redjackson: Some kind of introduction
2018-03-13T20:27:24Z gwatt: I don't, jcowan might
2018-03-13T20:28:36Z jcowan: If you go to the home page at http://srfi.schemers.org and click on the "Show abstracts" box you can get some idea.  Filtering on status = Final is also a good idea.
2018-03-13T20:30:53Z redjackson: Thank you very much!
2018-03-13T20:31:27Z wasamasa: the thing is that SRFIs are only ideas for your favorite scheme to implement
2018-03-13T20:31:37Z wasamasa: so get used to just writing your own function
2018-03-13T20:31:41Z jcowan: although most come with implementations, and many with portable implementations
2018-03-13T20:32:06Z redjackson: I write mostly stuff for my own, but thanks for the tip
2018-03-13T20:32:35Z jcowan: native implementations are generally "better" in some sense than the portable one, which may need some adjustment to fit YFS
2018-03-13T20:33:39Z redjackson: Do you have any scheme code for a "big" project that I can look at? I would like to learn the best practices from the beginning
2018-03-13T20:34:23Z wasamasa: the biggest scheme projects tend to be scheme implementations
2018-03-13T20:34:30Z gwatt: well, the biggest scheme codebases are probably scheme implementations, or at least their standard libraries
2018-03-13T20:35:08Z gwatt: You could always look at the srfi reference implementations
2018-03-13T20:35:24Z gwatt: or look at the descriptions, write your own, and then compare the two
2018-03-13T20:35:52Z redjackson: Good idea, thank you
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2018-03-14T06:44:12Z ecraven: can anyone point me to how I can extend minikanren to support a prolog-like facts database? clojure's core.logic has that by way of 'with-db', but I haven't found something like it for Scheme kanren
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2018-03-14T10:38:45Z zalt: are car and cdr turing complete
2018-03-14T10:38:52Z ecraven: no
2018-03-14T10:38:55Z zalt: lol
2018-03-14T10:38:59Z ecraven: without cons, you cannot do anything
2018-03-14T10:39:22Z zalt: i meant to ask can you do everything you want that has to do with lists with them?
2018-03-14T10:39:25Z pjb: (define cons (lambda (a d) (lambda (k) (k a d))))
2018-03-14T10:39:37Z pjb: (define car (lambda (k) ((lambda (a d) a) k)))
2018-03-14T10:39:41Z ecraven: pjb: that means you have lambda and define in addition to car and cdr :P
2018-03-14T10:39:42Z pjb: (define cdr (lambda (k) ((lambda (a d) d) k)))
2018-03-14T10:40:18Z pjb: this shows what car and cdr are.  It may be obvious how they are not turing complete.
2018-03-14T10:40:22Z zalt: why do i find pointer arithmetic much easier than this
2018-03-14T10:40:45Z zalt: :(
2018-03-14T10:40:47Z ecraven: zalt: because it is. there is nothing hard about pointer arithmetic
2018-03-14T10:41:06Z ecraven: it's just tedious and easy to make mistakes, but in essence, pointer arithmetic is dead simple
2018-03-14T10:41:26Z zalt: yes, but people learning them do say they're hard, but when it comes to lists i think they are fundamentally hard lol
2018-03-14T10:42:26Z ecraven: well, pointer arithmetic uses no mathematical concepts that are not part of primary school maths, so what exactly would make it "hard"?
2018-03-14T10:42:32Z zalt: is there a source file i can read where i can find how some functions are defined?
2018-03-14T10:42:45Z ecraven: which functions?
2018-03-14T10:43:02Z ecraven: also, every scheme implementation I know is open source, just pick one ;)
2018-03-14T10:43:09Z zalt googles the name of a function that does what he wants
2018-03-14T10:43:19Z ecraven: describe it, we might know ;D
2018-03-14T10:43:48Z zalt: oh there isn't lol
2018-03-14T10:44:01Z zalt: idk, something that for example reverses a list?
2018-03-14T10:46:12Z ecraven: https://docs.moodle.org/34/en/Block_settings
2018-03-14T10:46:15Z ecraven: https://stackoverflow.com/questions/4092113/how-to-reverse-a-list
2018-03-14T10:46:17Z ecraven: that one ^ :D
2018-03-14T10:46:23Z pjb: well, in lisp and scheme there are no pointer, but references.  The difference would be that we don't do arithmetic, and the usage (dereferencing) of pointers in references is stereotypical and automatic.
2018-03-14T10:46:30Z zalt: is it blasphemous to use (null? ) everywhere when dealing with lists?
2018-03-14T10:46:47Z zalt: yes, i came across that
2018-03-14T10:46:56Z pjb: not balsphemous at all.
2018-03-14T10:47:21Z fizzie: The SRFI 1 reference implementation has a lot of definitions for all kinds of functions involving lists. (Even, commented out, some of the ones that are in the standard already.)
2018-03-14T10:48:10Z pjb: zalt: but often you don't need to test for empty list, when you use high level list processing functions.
2018-03-14T10:48:24Z zalt: thanks, i will read that
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2018-03-14T12:03:06Z faLUCE: Hello, how can I iterate simoultaneoulsy two lists with different sizes?    something like   (map (lambda (x y) .... ) '(1 2 3) '(1 2 3 4 5))    . The behaviour must be that when the shorter list is finished, the iteration continues on the longer one.
2018-03-14T12:03:41Z ecraven: faLUCE: which value should the lambda receive?
2018-03-14T12:03:51Z ecraven: either extend the shorter list with that default value, or write your own map
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2018-03-14T12:05:37Z faLUCE: ecraven: value = '()
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2018-03-14T12:07:13Z faLUCE: how cann I extend the shorter list with that value?
2018-03-14T12:07:32Z ecraven: something like this: (append shorter (make-list (- (length longer) (length shorter)) default-value))
2018-03-14T12:07:48Z faLUCE: thanks
2018-03-14T12:08:11Z ecraven: your own map/default or whatever would be more efficient
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2018-03-14T12:08:44Z faLUCE: ecraven: however, I don't know which one is shorter, with vars list1 and list2
2018-03-14T12:08:57Z faLUCE: ok, I could do ifs
2018-03-14T12:09:07Z ecraven: (apply min (map length (list list1 list2)))
2018-03-14T12:09:24Z ecraven: but again, maybe writing your own mapping function might be easier
2018-03-14T12:13:53Z ecraven: something like that: http://ix.io/WWR  (needs every from srfi-1)
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2018-03-14T12:24:18Z faLUCE: ecraven: I tried  (set! music2 (append music2 (make-list (- (length music1) (length music2))  "" )))   but doesn't compile
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2018-03-14T12:24:59Z ecraven: faLUCE: which scheme are you using?
2018-03-14T12:25:39Z faLUCE: ecraven: http://rextester.com/
2018-03-14T12:28:09Z ecraven: faLUCE: works fine for me
2018-03-14T12:28:50Z faLUCE: ecraven: sorry, it was my fault
2018-03-14T12:35:33Z faLUCE: ecraven: there's some syntax error (rextester doesn't save the document, so I paste it here)   http://paste.ubuntu.com/p/WsvKKXgNWf/
2018-03-14T12:36:28Z ecraven: fal
2018-03-14T12:36:42Z ecraven: faLUCE: I suggest using an editor that supports scheme properly. it will help you with matching parentheses
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2018-03-14T12:37:48Z faLUCE: ecraven: rextester shows that parentheses match correctly
2018-03-14T12:38:13Z ecraven: faLUCE: (music1) *calls* '("a1" "b1" ..), but that's a list, not a function
2018-03-14T12:39:12Z faLUCE: (define music1 '("a1" "b1" "c1"))
2018-03-14T12:39:37Z ecraven: (> (length (music1)) (length (music2)))
2018-03-14T12:39:45Z ecraven: that is incorrect, you want  (length music1)
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2018-03-14T12:41:41Z faLUCE: still have errors http://rextester.com/CFZK2646
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2018-03-14T12:42:25Z ecraven: read the error message (very bottom)
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2018-03-14T12:42:34Z faLUCE: ok solved, thanks for the patience
2018-03-14T12:42:38Z wasamasa: it's funny how faLUCE keeps mentioning how they want to invest as little effort as possible in getting something for lilypond working, yet fumble around with inadequate tools for far longer instead of paying someone for a few hours of work
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2018-03-14T13:14:18Z vyzo: yeah, all this time spent poking in the dark
2018-03-14T13:14:25Z vyzo: and just asking basic questions
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2018-03-14T15:16:30Z ecraven: vyzo: have you wrapped any c++ libraries? would you need to create a C wrapper and use that in the ffi in gerbil?
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2018-03-14T15:32:25Z gwatt: You probably have to do that since there's no standard name mangling.
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2018-03-14T15:33:25Z jcowan: Extern "C" is meant to solve that problem
2018-03-14T15:33:50Z jcowan: if name mangling were standardized, everything about compiled code would have to be standardized as well (oh noes!)
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2018-03-14T15:44:39Z ecraven: but extern "C" won't work for classes, so for actual C++ code, it isn't so much use :-/
2018-03-14T15:45:35Z jcowan: well, no, it's not clear what that would even mean
2018-03-14T15:46:14Z gwatt: You'll have to treat the classes as opaque structs
2018-03-14T15:48:35Z ecraven: the problem is, I need to create a wrapper for every function... (point-get-x point) for point->get_x, and so on
2018-03-14T15:48:55Z ecraven: SomeOne™ should write a generator that uses clang to parse the header files and just generate the c wrapper automatically :P
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2018-03-14T16:00:50Z jcowan: Swig is supposed to be just that, but interpreting .h files in isolation is pretty much impossible.
2018-03-14T16:02:47Z jcowan: you end up having to write your own version of an .h file for Swig to read
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2018-03-14T16:04:21Z jcowan: particularly the gcc header files are full of all kinds of clever conditional stuffs
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2018-03-14T16:10:35Z vyzo: ecraven: C++ should work if you configure gambit with a c++ compiler
2018-03-14T16:10:40Z vyzo: but i haven't personally tried it
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2018-03-14T16:11:53Z vyzo: so i can't offer any advice or guidance :)
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2018-03-14T20:34:00Z ecraven: well, clang seems to have decent tooling for analysing things like that.. clasp is promising ;)
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2018-03-14T21:34:13Z faLUCE: Hello. I'm trying to understand the syntax of scheme. In this short snippet:   http://rextester.com/HEQ49146   , given that musicList2 is a circular list,   is it true that 1) (set! musicList2 (cdr musicList2))   updates the pointer to the current element of the list to the next one, in a circular way ?      2)  (elt (music-clone (car musicList2)))  --> elt is set to the value of music-clone, which takes the "key" of
2018-03-14T21:34:15Z faLUCE: the pair?  .    3) is "elt)  "  at the end of the function the return value of the function?
2018-03-14T21:37:12Z wasamasa: I don't see anything circular about this
2018-03-14T21:37:24Z wasamasa: or syntactically special
2018-03-14T21:37:48Z wasamasa: all I see is badly formatted scheme code
2018-03-14T21:38:25Z faLUCE: wasamasa: the circularity is defined in another part of the code
2018-03-14T21:38:29Z wasamasa: lol
2018-03-14T21:38:49Z wasamasa: set! has nothing to do with pointers
2018-03-14T21:39:01Z wasamasa: set! is the same as = in C-like languages
2018-03-14T21:39:19Z wasamasa: it assigns something to an identifier
2018-03-14T21:40:20Z wasamasa: that's all that happens here
2018-03-14T21:40:23Z faLUCE: wasamasa: ok, but the result is that the current element is the next one
2018-03-14T21:40:32Z wasamasa: let introduces local variables
2018-03-14T21:40:37Z faLUCE: sorry
2018-03-14T21:40:42Z faLUCE: I was wrong
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2018-03-14T21:41:14Z faLUCE: ok wasamasa, but what does mean "elt)" at the end?
2018-03-14T21:41:28Z wasamasa: so you have a local variable elt bound to who knows what, change the variable musicList2 (which comes from who knows where) to its rest and return the local variable elt
2018-03-14T21:41:44Z wasamasa: this isn't about syntax, this is about learning how lisp is evaluated
2018-03-14T21:41:56Z faLUCE: ok, so it is a return value
2018-03-14T21:42:06Z faLUCE: tnx
2018-03-14T21:43:04Z wasamasa: go study r5rs
2018-03-14T21:44:17Z wasamasa: https://wiki.call-cc.org/man/4/The%20R5RS%20standard#binding-constructs
2018-03-14T21:44:25Z wasamasa: "The <init>s are evaluated in the current environment (in some unspecified order), the <variable>s are bound to fresh locations holding the results, the <body> is evaluated in the extended environment, and the value(s) of the last expression of <body> is(are) returned."
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2018-03-14T21:51:12Z X-Scale: faLUCE: these maybe the most precious 50 pages of the lisp world -> http://www.schemers.org/Documents/Standards/R5RS/r5rs.pdf
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2018-03-15T01:34:01Z ski: jcowan : hm, it appears <http://www.ccil.org/~cowan/blag.xml> is broken, is there a replacement ?
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2018-03-15T01:34:54Z jcowan: s/www.ccil.org/vrici.lojban.org
2018-03-15T01:35:06Z jcowan: for all my ccil.org urls
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2018-03-15T01:54:48Z ski: jcowan : ty
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2018-03-15T03:15:40Z duncanm: la la la
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2018-03-15T03:51:28Z ski looks for incubot
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2018-03-15T04:01:25Z qu1j0t3: it hatched
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2018-03-15T05:52:11Z vvandeby: THIS IS A FREENODE BREAKING NEWS ALERT!! Hitechcg AND opal ARE GOING AT IT RIGHT NOW WITH A LOT OF FIGHTING AND ARGUING WOW YOU DON'T WANT TO MISS THIS!! TYPE /JOIN ## TO SEE THE ACTION...AGAIN TYPE /JOIN ## TO SEE THE ACTION!!
2018-03-15T05:52:11Z vvandeby: THIS IS A FREENODE BREAKING NEWS ALERT!! Hitechcg AND opal ARE GOING AT IT RIGHT NOW WITH A LOT OF FIGHTING AND ARGUING WOW YOU DON'T WANT TO MISS THIS!! TYPE /JOIN ## TO SEE THE ACTION...AGAIN TYPE /JOIN ## TO SEE THE ACTION!!
2018-03-15T05:52:11Z vvandeby: THIS IS A FREENODE BREAKING NEWS ALERT!! Hitechcg AND opal ARE GOING AT IT RIGHT NOW WITH A LOT OF FIGHTING AND ARGUING WOW YOU DON'T WANT TO MISS THIS!! TYPE /JOIN ## TO SEE THE ACTION...AGAIN TYPE /JOIN ## TO SEE THE ACTION!!
2018-03-15T05:52:15Z vvandeby: damke siraben marusich nullcone sleffy n0am leppie sethalves epony pie_ badkins_ JoshS jcowan Menche zmt00 dmiles klovett emacsomancer cromachina_ webshinra niklasl danly lucasem oleo terpri zalt ineiros urbofailt larsen khisanth_ X-Scale arbv vicenteH copec lloda` duncanm aeth clog fiddlerwoaroof hugo mfiano em elly ByronJohnson catern aoh ijp cibs Kryo dpk fadein eagleflo carc snw askatasuna weinholt eMBee kbtr ecraven stux|work wasamasa snits_ greghender
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2018-03-15T06:23:40Z mrm: The fuck?
2018-03-15T06:25:23Z vyzo: just spam
2018-03-15T06:25:36Z vyzo: it happens every now and then in pretty much all channels
2018-03-15T06:26:54Z mrm: Yea, I got that. I'm more confused by what it's spamming about.
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2018-03-15T06:27:25Z mrm: Trying to get people to join a channel with literally 3 people in it?
2018-03-15T06:30:58Z vyzo: maybe number of people in the channel features prominently in the creature's utility function :)
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2018-03-15T07:19:34Z ecraven: does anyone know of a Scheme implementation that allows as much introspection and dynamic change as CL does? redefining functions (even inside packages) in a running system, inspecting and changing variables in stack frames while debugging, that sort of thing?
2018-03-15T07:20:05Z ecraven: MIT is the closest one I know
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2018-03-15T08:13:17Z wasamasa: is ## even a channel?
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2018-03-15T08:14:32Z wasamasa: ecraven: I suspect introspection is an afterthought
2018-03-15T08:14:32Z wasamasa: ecraven: but who knows, considering that the jvm supports quite a bit of it, perhaps kawa qualifies in a backwards way
2018-03-15T08:15:14Z ecraven: wasamasa: unfortunately the jvm only supports debugging from *outside* the jvm
2018-03-15T08:15:21Z ecraven: you cannot have a jvm debug itself :-/
2018-03-15T08:20:57Z wasamasa: meh
2018-03-15T08:26:32Z manumanumanu: ecraven: well, isn't the whole changing variables in stack frames a result of CL's condition system? You can inspect the continuation in most schemes, but for true messing around CL's conditions and restarts seem nicer
2018-03-15T08:27:20Z ecraven: manumanumanu: I'm not sure that needs to be connected
2018-03-15T08:27:40Z ecraven: you can get at the stack frame in many Schemes, there's just no tooling to inspect everything and change things
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2018-03-15T08:29:59Z manumanumanu: Well, of course you can inspect things, but does any scheme really allow restarts once you are in the continuation of the error?
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2018-03-15T08:30:08Z manumanumanu: I am not great at that stuff
2018-03-15T08:30:36Z ecraven: mit does, to some extent
2018-03-15T08:30:54Z ecraven: I'm no expert on CL restarts, but mit has restarts that look like what I know of CL
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2018-03-15T08:39:25Z manumanumanu: ecraven: for me the problem is usually that most of the debugging info is lost and I'm too lazy to enable full debugging :)
2018-03-15T08:40:04Z ecraven: in CL or in Schemes?
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2018-03-15T08:40:22Z ecraven: quite a few Schemes don't even track debugging info properly :-/
2018-03-15T08:40:42Z ecraven: even trivial things, like keeping the original s-expression for a function around (which costs nothing but a bit of memory)
2018-03-15T08:48:51Z manumanumanu: scheme
2018-03-15T08:49:54Z manumanumanu: I used allegro CL for some time, and the debugging facilities are amazing. Sometimes I just think I should try harder to ignore that I like scheme more :D
2018-03-15T08:51:30Z ecraven: manumanumanu: well, might not those debugging facilities be implemented in some Scheme just as well?
2018-03-15T08:51:37Z ecraven: I don't think that the actual *language* prevents that from happening
2018-03-15T08:52:14Z manumanumanu: well... I'm not good enough to implement it :)
2018-03-15T08:52:46Z ecraven: neither am I, but I don't think this is any inherent advantage of CL, just something that hasn't happened in Scheme so far
2018-03-15T08:52:57Z ecraven: of course, CL kind of mandates some of it, so it's easier to get there
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2018-03-15T09:06:59Z manumanumanu: ecraven: It is a shame I can't really stand CL
2018-03-15T09:07:48Z ecraven: manumanumanu: I've tried often, but it just doesn't click with me the way Scheme does
2018-03-15T09:07:58Z manumanumanu: I have a prelude that makes it a bit more schemey, but that isn't really something I can expect other people to use
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2018-03-15T09:08:45Z manumanumanu: the whole different namespaces thing feels weird and I dislike the loop macro
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2018-03-15T09:44:51Z manumanumanu: ecraven: there is this japanese guy that actually ported a lot of srfis to CL. Even syntax-rules, which is pretty impressive
2018-03-15T09:45:22Z manumanumanu: g00000001 (or something like that)
2018-03-15T10:06:35Z pjb: manumanumanu: it's trivial to implement named let.
2018-03-15T10:06:51Z pjb: (and it's so much better than loop, isn't it)
2018-03-15T10:09:33Z manumanumanu: pjb: I just find it a nice abstraction to build upon. I implemented racket-like for loops for guile that compiles down to code just as fast has a hand-rolled named let. I could have done it with labels, but it would have been a bit more convoluted, and probably harder for the optimizer to reason about
2018-03-15T10:10:44Z ecraven: I think it is mostly easy to port things between Scheme and CL, but you cannot port the introspection and debugging features easily :-/
2018-03-15T10:11:10Z ecraven: I don't much care about macros, those *can* probably all be ported, given enough motivation, without touching the actual runtime
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2018-03-15T12:21:42Z jcowan: ecraven, manumanumanu:  Riastradh has a nice restarts proposal that I hope to get included in the Yellow Edition
2018-03-15T12:21:45Z jcowan: http://mumble.net/~campbell/proposals/restart.text
2018-03-15T12:22:26Z jcowan: implementation in http://mumble.net/~campbell/proposals/restart.scm
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2018-03-15T12:25:26Z jcowan: it is basically 100% portable: depends on define-record-type, error, and and parameters
2018-03-15T12:25:53Z jcowan: of course if you want it integrated with the debugger, you need to do something special, since debuggers are not portable (unless you include the SLIB debugger)
2018-03-15T12:26:45Z manumanumanu: well, this way we would at least have a portable minimum
2018-03-15T12:26:48Z manumanumanu: that looks sweet
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2018-03-15T12:29:06Z manumanumanu: jcowan: I thought I had read all the editions forwards and backwards, but I missed that one. thank you
2018-03-15T12:29:25Z manumanumanu: ... but man... r7rs-large will be huge :)
2018-03-15T12:29:30Z jcowan: "Editions"?
2018-03-15T12:29:43Z manumanumanu: yellow, red, blue,
2018-03-15T12:29:43Z jcowan: oh, nm
2018-03-15T12:29:46Z jcowan: still sleepy
2018-03-15T12:32:39Z manumanumanu: wow... he actually implemented a working condition system in 110 lines of scheme.
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2018-03-15T12:36:54Z ecraven: manumanumanu: huge is a good thing, imho ;)
2018-03-15T12:38:57Z manumanumanu: ecraven: sure! I just hope it will be implemented
2018-03-15T12:39:21Z ecraven: manumanumanu: well, many parts of it only depend on r7rs and a few srfis, then can be implemented portably
2018-03-15T12:41:22Z manumanumanu: conditions and restarts would be _great_. rust chose not to have them, which is mindboggling
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2018-03-15T12:45:35Z ecraven: well, it all depends on how interactive you want your language to be
2018-03-15T12:45:49Z ecraven: regarding that, I think that CL is still way ahead of any Scheme implementation :-/
2018-03-15T12:46:16Z ecraven: I still envision a Scheme system where I can update modules while it is running, and it just continues running.. erlang and CL have that, I think
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2018-03-15T12:54:27Z vyzo: i would like to have that too
2018-03-15T12:54:46Z vyzo: Gerbil is trying at least :)
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2018-03-15T13:04:15Z ecraven: vyzo: I know ;) that's why I find gerbil so interesting
2018-03-15T13:04:29Z ecraven: I understand that not everyone has that vision I have
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2018-03-15T13:41:50Z duncanm: I used to think a condition system is a really sophisticated thing, but then I watched this video - https://youtu.be/zp0OEDcAro0
2018-03-15T13:43:00Z duncanm: I think Riastradh basically did something similar, it's the same technique. The key piece is using fluids/parameters to bind the handlers
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2018-03-15T14:40:25Z ecraven: I have no idea how that actually works, but I'd love to be able to redefine a function from inside the debugger, and have the running system continue running with that new function (even if it is part of the call stack)
2018-03-15T14:40:58Z duncanm: ecraven: you should watch the video, it's pretty short
2018-03-15T14:41:03Z ecraven: watching it now ;)
2018-03-15T14:42:17Z duncanm: ecraven: I read this the other day, and the guy mentioned that there are things to be mindful of to make redefinitons work - https://elmord.org/blog/?entry=20180219-parenthetical-blognir
2018-03-15T14:43:12Z ecraven: thanks, will read
2018-03-15T14:43:45Z vyzo: ecraven: this kind of redefinition may be defeated by compiler optimizations
2018-03-15T14:44:31Z duncanm: yeah, i think in kawa's case, it does a lot of inlining, so there's talk of a no-inline mode
2018-03-15T14:45:15Z duncanm: i wonder what squeak does, maybe it doesn't inline message sends at all?
2018-03-15T14:45:18Z ecraven: vyzo: dynamic recompilation :P
2018-03-15T14:45:30Z ecraven: that's my answer to almost everything
2018-03-15T14:45:36Z ecraven: not being the one who has to implement it :D
2018-03-15T14:45:36Z zalt: do you run into problems that have to do with the stack being so big? or is the interpreter usually implemented in a smarter way
2018-03-15T14:47:04Z zalt: isn'
2018-03-15T14:47:06Z vyzo: heh
2018-03-15T14:47:19Z zalt: isn't that a practical limitiation to recursion?
2018-03-15T14:48:01Z zalt: i haven't tried millions of frames yet, i'm just wondering if it's as bad as what you usually have in compiled languages
2018-03-15T14:48:16Z vyzo: what makes you think scheme isn't compiled?
2018-03-15T14:48:36Z zalt: sorry, i guess i meant interpreted scheme, i use racket
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2018-03-15T14:49:50Z duncanm: well, once the chez port is completed, it'll definitely be compiled as well (if it's not compiled already)
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2018-03-15T14:51:53Z zalt: i'm not implying that compiled scheme code could be better in that aspect, i think it won't be very different when it comes to that particular aspect, i guess what i'm asking is, don't computers deal with traditional loop better than recursive models of computation?
2018-03-15T14:52:34Z zalt: i mean unless the compiler/interpreter figures out a way to simplify the code to something that doesn't need millions/think billions of return addresses /values being pushed into a stack
2018-03-15T14:53:07Z ecraven: racket has a JIT compiler
2018-03-15T14:53:22Z ecraven: so it normally is kind of compiled. iirc it compiles bytecode instructions to blocks of native code
2018-03-15T14:53:54Z ecraven: zalt: read about tail call optimization
2018-03-15T14:54:58Z zalt: that's exactly the kind of optimization that i was wondering if it had existed/was implemented, thanks :)
2018-03-15T15:00:02Z jcowan: zalt: In Scheme, proper tail calling is not an optimization but a requirement: you can depend on it being present, or the language is not Scheme.
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2018-03-15T15:02:28Z zalt: jcowan: that's good to know about :)
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2018-03-15T15:04:20Z jcowan: Some Scheme systems amortize tail calling:  in Chicken, in particular, the code is transformed so that all calls are tail calls, and then the code is translated to C, leaving the calls as ordinary C calls.  When the stack gets too big, all the stack frames are thrown away by longjmp(), and start over.
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2018-03-15T15:09:56Z ski: ecraven : fwiw, re "redefine a function from inside the debugger, and have the running system continue running with that new function (even if it is part of the call stack)", in Prolog if you use assert[az]/1 and retract/1 to chacge the definition of a predicate, while it is running, it is now agreed that the "logical update view", rather than the "immediate update view", meaning that a predicate call that has already been activated will not see the changes,
2018-03-15T15:10:18Z ski: (er, cut off near ".., rather than the \"immediate update view\", meaning that a predicate call that has already been activated will not see the changes, only new calls will")
2018-03-15T15:11:11Z ski: while in Erlang, if you hot-swap out a module for a new one, internal calls within the module will still call the old module (only at most two versions can be loaded, though, iirc), you have to make an explicit module-qualified call to reach the new version
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2018-03-15T15:14:24Z ecraven: hm.. I think I read somewhere that Erlang would use the new version.. but it might have been something about Java and hot-swapping code there
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2018-03-15T15:21:32Z vyzo: it's reasonable to expect code running in the same module to see the old definitions
2018-03-15T15:21:42Z vyzo: coz local module calls are always optimized by the compiler
2018-03-15T15:21:47Z vyzo: or it's not a very good compiler :)
2018-03-15T15:22:46Z ventonegro: Or you can switch the behaviour on and off, like Gambit
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2018-03-15T15:24:35Z vyzo: yes of course
2018-03-15T15:24:39Z vyzo: (declare (not block))
2018-03-15T15:24:56Z vyzo: not a very good optimizer i meant to say :)
2018-03-15T15:25:09Z vyzo: Gerbil compiles all modules with (declare (block))
2018-03-15T15:25:45Z ventonegro: Like Jesus intended
2018-03-15T15:25:50Z vyzo: yup
2018-03-15T15:26:26Z ecraven: vyzo: I don't see it that way. if I enter a module and redefine a non-exported function, I want that to take effect
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2018-03-15T15:26:37Z vyzo: in compiled code?
2018-03-15T15:26:42Z ecraven: yes, "just" recompile it
2018-03-15T15:26:44Z vyzo: you really don't know if the call has been inlined
2018-03-15T15:26:49Z vyzo: you have to recompile the whole module
2018-03-15T15:26:54Z ski: i think the idea with Erlang would be that you could do controlled update (possibly including converting the internal state to a new format/representation), by passing your server processes a specific message intended for that
2018-03-15T15:26:57Z ecraven: that won't matter, all call sites should be recompiled / jitted
2018-03-15T15:27:14Z vyzo: cross-module calls are fine
2018-03-15T15:27:16Z ecraven: vyzo: ideally, if I redefine + to be tracing, *all* my code should be recompiled, I think
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2018-03-15T15:27:28Z ecraven: vyzo: but for debugging, I often want to work in a module, not only on module boundaries
2018-03-15T15:27:29Z vyzo: once you've reloaded the newly compiled code, all code outside the module will see it
2018-03-15T15:28:04Z vyzo: you may want to turn off some optimizations while debugging
2018-03-15T15:28:10Z ski: ecraven : "if I enter a module and redefine a non-exported function, I want that to take effect" -- also for other random calls that call into the module, or just for the current execution inside the module that you're debugging (until you commit the changes, of course) ?
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2018-03-15T15:29:07Z vyzo: i personally do most of my first-level debugging with interpreted modules
2018-03-15T15:29:15Z vyzo: which just flat out solves the problem :)
2018-03-15T15:29:15Z ecraven: vyzo: yes, but if I'm debugging a production system while it's running, I don't quite have that option
2018-03-15T15:29:21Z vyzo: yeah, i know
2018-03-15T15:29:29Z vyzo: but in a production system you want doz optimizations!
2018-03-15T15:29:32Z ecraven: I know that some of my wishes are rather contradictory ;)
2018-03-15T15:29:40Z vyzo: it's a hard problem
2018-03-15T15:29:56Z vyzo: but if you treat your abstraction scope the module
2018-03-15T15:30:00Z vyzo: then there is no problem :)
2018-03-15T15:30:24Z vyzo: so basically reload the whole module
2018-03-15T15:30:30Z vyzo: encourages modularity in code too
2018-03-15T15:30:42Z vyzo: your unit has a bug? fix it, reload, continue
2018-03-15T15:31:01Z vyzo: but live patching your unit is a different manner
2018-03-15T15:31:08Z vyzo: ecraven: i think what you want is akin to live patching
2018-03-15T15:31:11Z ecraven: yes, but fixing it might involve analyzing what is happening, which might mean things like adding tracing to module-internal functions
2018-03-15T15:31:16Z ecraven: yes, I think it is
2018-03-15T15:31:20Z ecraven: no idea whether CL actually supports that
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2018-03-15T15:31:49Z ski: yea, adding tracing shouldn't just be a matter of "changing the definition". it should be more integrated than that
2018-03-15T15:32:54Z ski: (often, i'd like tracing only over a given lexical scope (or a couple of them). so that i don't have to bother seeing the trusted library calls executing, but i still want to see when it calls back into my callback function)
2018-03-15T15:33:31Z ski: (also declarative debuggers are interesting ..)
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2018-03-15T15:34:40Z ski: (or/including rewinding-time debuggers, also in the presence of I/O (which can then be memoized))
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2018-03-15T15:35:21Z vyzo: this is getting in the realm of imagination now :)
2018-03-15T15:35:31Z vyzo: i mean, i would love to have this kind of magic too
2018-03-15T15:35:46Z ski: (well, Mercury has the latter)
2018-03-15T15:35:48Z vyzo: but it's not low hanging fruit you can just hack :)
2018-03-15T15:36:26Z vyzo: if you have hooks to syscalls, then that's simply not possible
2018-03-15T15:36:38Z ski: is too
2018-03-15T15:36:41Z vyzo: i mean, theoretically you could intercept them
2018-03-15T15:37:03Z vyzo: let's retract the "not possible"
2018-03-15T15:37:07Z vyzo: it is theoretically possible
2018-03-15T15:37:22Z ski: you invent a "token" representing the real world, e.g. just a counter that is incremented on I/O primops (including syscalls, effectful foreign calls)
2018-03-15T15:37:41Z vyzo: then you need a model of what all the foreign code does, don't you?
2018-03-15T15:37:50Z ski: then, after you have rewound, instead of actually performing the primop, you just look up the result you got last time, in the memo table
2018-03-15T15:37:58Z ski: no, not at all
2018-03-15T15:38:30Z ecraven: ski: but if after rewinding the syscalls are performed in a different order, won't that break?
2018-03-15T15:38:45Z vyzo: also, good luck rewinding close :)
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2018-03-15T15:39:20Z ski: yes, this assumes that the code hasn't been changed, and that the implementation does them in a deterministic way, inside a single process
2018-03-15T15:39:31Z ski: good point
2018-03-15T15:40:36Z ski: "Idempotent I/O for safe time travel" by Zoltan Somogyi in 2003-09 at <https://www.mercurylang.org/documentation/papers.html#aadebug03-paper> was the paper i had in mind
2018-03-15T15:41:12Z ski: (vyzo : `close' wouldn't be a problem. what ecraven raised could be, though)
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2018-03-15T15:44:50Z vyzo: the problem is going forward after you've rewound a close and fixed the bug
2018-03-15T15:45:01Z vyzo: let's say you had a bug that lead to a close on an fd
2018-03-15T15:45:03Z vyzo: you go back
2018-03-15T15:45:05Z vyzo: fix the bug
2018-03-15T15:45:06Z vyzo: and continue
2018-03-15T15:45:15Z vyzo: now you don't have a close in the code any more
2018-03-15T15:45:21Z vyzo: but the file descriptor _is_ closed
2018-03-15T15:45:33Z vyzo: once you've get past your memoized state BOOM!
2018-03-15T15:46:46Z ski: yea, the above system, as said, assume "code hasn't been changed" (including such fixes)
2018-03-15T15:47:33Z vyzo: ok that kind of limits the usability of your debugger
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2018-03-15T15:47:46Z vyzo: still useful in analyzing a bug, no doubt
2018-03-15T15:47:53Z ski: (iow, actual fixes, as opposed to figuring out what happened, and what went wrong, would then require a restart ..)
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2018-03-16T05:33:39Z exit70: hi, why s48 hangs when given this function definition? https://hastebin.com/ucafahoqok.lisp
2018-03-16T05:36:44Z tolja: You seem to be passing 0.001 as a parameter to abs, not <
2018-03-16T05:38:09Z exit70: ah, i guess i need another )
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2018-03-16T15:58:16Z duncanm: exit70: so it works now?
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2018-03-16T15:58:24Z duncanm: exit70: which version of s48 are you running?
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2018-03-16T16:39:20Z exit70: duncanm: 1.9 yeah working now thx
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2018-03-16T16:56:19Z duncanm: what's the right answer to (-)?
2018-03-16T16:56:34Z duncanm: on chez, it's an error, on kawa, it's 0
2018-03-16T16:57:07Z duncanm: it's an error in scheme48 too, so I guess kawa is in the wrong here
2018-03-16T16:57:28Z duncanm: emacs, i think, says 0, hmmm
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2018-03-16T18:17:48Z jcowan: duncanm: (-) is an error, which is to say that an implementation can do what it likes
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2018-03-16T20:09:10Z duncanm: I see, thanks
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2018-03-16T23:03:29Z siraben: Has anyone read The Reasoned Schemer? What do you make of it?
2018-03-16T23:04:47Z qu1j0t3: i've gone through a good part of it.
2018-03-16T23:04:59Z qu1j0t3: it's really just a bunch of minikanren syntax.
2018-03-16T23:05:22Z qu1j0t3: fine if you're a minikanren completist, but it's not going to teach anyone much about logic programming.
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2018-03-16T23:06:54Z qu1j0t3: (the Byrd thesis and related papers are much more useful on the subject of minikanren anyhow)
2018-03-16T23:12:45Z gwatt: Will Byrd also used to do minikanren talks via google hangouts
2018-03-16T23:13:05Z qu1j0t3: yes, mostly useful to implementors, afaict
2018-03-16T23:13:16Z gwatt: He has a bunch of videos up if you want to check them out
2018-03-16T23:18:04Z qu1j0t3:  /b 4
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2018-03-16T23:20:40Z gwatt: ?
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2018-03-17T10:15:24Z zalt: can i have two things in a let statement where one depends on the other without nesting two lets?
2018-03-17T10:15:58Z wasamasa: let*
2018-03-17T10:16:20Z wasamasa: assuming it's sequential binding you're speaking of
2018-03-17T10:16:27Z wasamasa: for mutually recursive bindings you use letrec
2018-03-17T10:16:37Z zalt: yes, i think that's what i'm looking for, ty
2018-03-17T10:16:47Z zalt: (i mean let*)
2018-03-17T10:17:40Z zalt: i wonder how is it dealt with internally? does it like nest the lets? :O
2018-03-17T10:18:18Z wasamasa: that's up to the implementation, but some do indeed compile to nested let statements
2018-03-17T10:18:25Z wasamasa: which themselves are compiled to lambdas
2018-03-17T10:18:39Z zalt: i'm not familiar with the * suffix, does it mean something like (smth!) does?
2018-03-17T10:19:17Z wasamasa: alternative version of something
2018-03-17T10:19:46Z zalt: i see
2018-03-17T10:19:58Z wasamasa: defun* in elisp for instance is a macro defining functions with CL-style argument lists
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2018-03-17T10:24:22Z wasamasa: http://api.call-cc.org/cdoc?q=^[^*].*\*$&query-regex=Regexp
2018-03-17T10:24:54Z wasamasa: there are a few exceptions, like multiplication procedures :P
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2018-03-17T10:26:58Z zalt: i wonder am i cheating myself when i'm doing things that iterate using indices? i mean sure i didn't use (begin, didn't use (set! but still, is that unavoidable in some tasks?
2018-03-17T10:27:51Z wasamasa: sure, some data structures are defined by indexed access, like vectors
2018-03-17T10:29:30Z zalt: i find myself defining functions procedurally first then try to translate them to something recursive :D
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2018-03-17T10:36:18Z zalt: i wonder how you'd write equivalent possibly simpler functions, https://ideone.com/rTlrYg
2018-03-17T10:36:56Z ecraven: well, the trivial thing would be (apply max lst)
2018-03-17T10:37:04Z ecraven: maybe better would be reducing by < or >
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2018-03-17T10:42:25Z zalt: hmf, i haven't tried working with higher functions yet, how does reduce differ from apply?
2018-03-17T10:43:16Z zalt: oh nvm
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2018-03-17T10:43:25Z zalt: they're fundamentally different it seems
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2018-03-17T10:58:01Z zalt: that's magic! https://ideone.com/5iVjCh
2018-03-17T10:59:12Z zalt: i think i finally understand what apply does, so instead of giving a list as a single argument, it expands it and calls the given function with each atom as a separate argument
2018-03-17T11:01:22Z zalt: that leaves me wondering, how are these functions with infinite parameters defined :D
2018-03-17T11:02:06Z wasamasa: (lambda x ...)
2018-03-17T11:02:27Z wasamasa: alternatively, (lambda (a b c . rest) ...)
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2018-03-17T11:04:27Z zalt: umhm, yeah i remember that part in the basics, it didn't make any sense when i read it then
2018-03-17T11:05:31Z zalt: if such a lambda get called with (funcname 1 2 3), then rest would be null?, how ever if it was called with (funcname 1 2 3 4 5) rest would be (
2018-03-17T11:05:37Z zalt: (4 5) right?
2018-03-17T11:06:03Z wasamasa: right
2018-03-17T11:06:56Z wasamasa: the first syntax just binds all arguments to a list
2018-03-17T11:07:30Z wasamasa: so you could do (define list (lambda x x))
2018-03-17T11:07:48Z wasamasa: I've seen that at least once in a scheme implementation
2018-03-17T11:18:52Z zalt: it seems that it's okay to define identifiers already used in default libraries? i mean ones like list, i was avoiding these to not get an interpreter error lol
2018-03-17T11:20:01Z zalt: i mean when used as a parameter name or something, (it'd be a bad idea to do that on file scope)
2018-03-17T11:20:24Z wasamasa: that's up to the implementation
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2018-03-17T12:16:25Z Labu: Hello
2018-03-17T12:20:37Z ski: zalt : in `max-i', you could use just one recursive call. `gen-i' is inefficient, since it keeps using `append' repeatedly to add things to the end. it looks like your `reduce' would more appropriately be named `reduce-right', since it right-associates calls to the callback function ?
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2018-03-17T12:20:46Z ski: hello Labu
2018-03-17T12:21:37Z Labu: Hello ski
2018-03-17T12:24:39Z ski: rudybot: eval (min 2 +inf.0 1 3)
2018-03-17T12:24:39Z rudybot: ski: ; Value: 1.0
2018-03-17T12:24:47Z ski: rudybot: eval (max 2 -inf.0 1 3)
2018-03-17T12:24:47Z rudybot: ski: ; Value: 3.0
2018-03-17T12:24:52Z ski: rudybot: eval (min)
2018-03-17T12:24:52Z rudybot: ski: error: min: arity mismatch; <NEWLINE>  the expected number of arguments does not match the given number <NEWLINE>   expected: at least 1 <NEWLINE>   given: 0
2018-03-17T12:24:55Z ski: rudybot: eval (max)
2018-03-17T12:24:55Z rudybot: ski: error: max: arity mismatch; <NEWLINE>  the expected number of arguments does not match the given number <NEWLINE>   expected: at least 1 <NEWLINE>   given: 0
2018-03-17T12:25:26Z ski: should `(min)' and `(max)' give `+inf.0' respectively `-inf.0' as results ?
2018-03-17T12:27:39Z ski: (i suppose one might want `(min 2 (min) 1 3)' to give an exact result, and ditto for `max', hmm)
2018-03-17T12:28:20Z ski: (should there be "exact negative infinity" and "exact positive infinity" ?)
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2018-03-17T13:28:47Z Pierpa: These would be handy
2018-03-17T13:29:39Z Pierpa: Though, I suspect theoreticians would faint
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2018-03-17T13:34:41Z elly: surely (min) and (max) should be errors? you can't take the minimum of an empty set because the minimum is the element such that no other element is less than it
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2018-03-17T13:38:21Z zalt: ski: why is cons better performance wise?
2018-03-17T13:39:19Z zalt: i mean if it's just a linked list, it shouldn't matter right?
2018-03-17T13:39:55Z ski: elly : well, `min' and `max' already only applies to numbers, in Scheme. and we already have positive and negative infinity, at least for inexact numbers
2018-03-17T13:40:33Z zalt: (i'm not sure if that's how they're done in implementations though, it could be just a continuous region of memory)
2018-03-17T13:42:13Z ski: zalt : i haven't said that `cons' is better, performance wise. `append' is fine, for what it does. *repeatedly* using `append' to add stuff to the end (equivalently : using `append' in a left-associated way, rather than in a right-associated way), gives worse complexity than could be expected, and so should be avoided
2018-03-17T13:42:14Z zalt: heck thinking about it, i think they can't be continuous, because of all of the dynamic types, nested lists and stuff
2018-03-17T13:43:18Z ski: lists in Scheme are single-linked lists, which are asymmetric beasts. you can access the first element in constant time, but you can't access the last element in constant time, since you have to traverse it all the way from the start, to the end
2018-03-17T13:43:49Z ski: `(append xs ys)' will traverse all of `xs', making a copy of it, making sure to replace the end-of-list (the empty list), with `ys'
2018-03-17T13:44:57Z ski: `(append xs (append ys (append zs ws)))' will traverse `xs', and traverse `ys', and traverse `zs'. this is what i mean by a right-associated use of `append' (compare with `x + (y + (z + w))', in Scheme `(+ x (+ y (+ z w)))')
2018-03-17T13:45:05Z ski: this case is unproblematic
2018-03-17T13:45:55Z ski: however, if we consider `(append (append (append xs ys) zs) ws)', a left-associated use of `append', then this is problematic (this corresponds to `((x + y) + z) + w)', or `(+ (+ (+ x y) z) w)' in Scheme)
2018-03-17T13:46:07Z zalt: lol this is as bad as it gets i guess
2018-03-17T13:46:30Z ski: because it will first traverse `xs', then traverse the concatenation of `xs' and `ys', in effect traversing `xs' *again*, &c.
2018-03-17T13:46:38Z zalt: but why couldn't implementations keep a tail pointer or something? i mean that naively seems like a requirement, even if going back is not possible
2018-03-17T13:46:54Z ski: so, effectively, `xs' will be traversed three times, and `ys' two times. which is bad
2018-03-17T13:47:52Z ski: now, if you define a recursive procedure, where a call `(foo ...)' will expand to `(append ... (foo ...))', then this is ok, since the recursive call is the last argument of `append', as so this will generate a right-associated usage of nested calls to `append'
2018-03-17T13:48:03Z wasamasa: zalt: that's what people do when implementing queues in terms of linked lists
2018-03-17T13:48:19Z ski: but if a call `(foo ...)' will expand to `(append (foo ...) ...)', then this is bad, since that amounts to a left-associated use of `append'
2018-03-17T13:48:57Z ski: there are some alternative approaches to avoiding such situations
2018-03-17T13:49:29Z wasamasa: zalt: your code amounts to http://wiki.c2.com/?ShlemielThePainter
2018-03-17T13:49:40Z ski: one would be to, instead of `(append (foo x) blah)', you do `(append (reverse blah) (foo x))', generating your list backwards, then, as a final step, you reverse the final result, once
2018-03-17T13:50:04Z ski: (in your case, `blah' was a singleton list, so you can avoid the `reverse' on that)
2018-03-17T13:50:54Z ski: another way is to use destructive operations to build the list from start-to-end, rather than the other way around
2018-03-17T13:51:29Z ski: then, depending on the particular problem, it may be possible to reformulate the solution in some other way which doesn't involve left-associated uses of `append'
2018-03-17T13:51:42Z zalt: wasamasa: hahaha, yes i understand how bad traversing an entire list can be, i just expected the lists themselves to be optimized for appending/didn't know they're single linked
2018-03-17T13:52:18Z wasamasa: zalt: it may be surprising but in scheme the list type isn't a growable array
2018-03-17T13:52:18Z zalt: ski: yes that's what i'm thinking about now with cons
2018-03-17T13:52:27Z zalt: i could use cons, but i'd have to reverse the list at the end, once
2018-03-17T13:52:41Z wasamasa: that's a common idiom in imperative lisp code
2018-03-17T13:52:46Z ski: "but why couldn't implementations keep a tail pointer or something?" -- because after computing `(append xs ys)', `xs' shouldn't suddenly refer to a different list than it did before. `append' is a persistent, not an ephemeral operation. for the latter, you can use `append!'
2018-03-17T13:54:38Z zalt: umhmm, wait, when i pass a list as an argument it gets copied if there are other usages of it in the same function?
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2018-03-17T13:54:51Z wasamasa: lists aren't actually a thing
2018-03-17T13:54:57Z zalt: lists are a lie!
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2018-03-17T13:55:00Z wasamasa: what you're passing is a cons
2018-03-17T13:55:08Z wasamasa: the cons consists of two pointers
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2018-03-17T13:55:25Z ski: `append' isn't bad in itself. for single-linked lists, one can't expect better from `(append xs ys)'. the problem is when one could reasonably expect a better complexity, given the constraints of the chosed data structure
2018-03-17T13:55:29Z wasamasa: so, sure, if you pass a cons to a function doing mutation, things happen
2018-03-17T13:55:52Z ski: (if the complexity of plain `append' isn't satisfactory, then one should select a different data structure)
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2018-03-17T13:56:51Z ski: zalt : passing a list as an argument copies nothing, apart from the reference to that list. it's `append' itself which amounts to copying the structure of all but its last argument
2018-03-17T13:56:53Z zalt: wasamasa: wait, this make me feel like i don't know anything about how mutation/passing happens in lisp
2018-03-17T13:57:05Z wasamasa: set! doesn't mutate
2018-03-17T13:57:18Z wasamasa: ideally, don't think about mutation at all
2018-03-17T13:57:32Z wasamasa: treat lists as immutable data
2018-03-17T13:57:43Z ski: (persistent data)
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2018-03-17T14:10:02Z zalt: lol this is weird to think about, the point it is done this way is so you can have for example multiple lists point to the same begining? , suppose we have the desired end of them as: (c b a), we can have 2 lists point to c without needing to copy (c b a) so lists that build on top of c and point to it are possible, i mean like (u w g-> c b a), and (s r k -> c b a) can just point to the exact memory location of c?
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2018-03-17T14:11:11Z zalt: but forcefully mutating the list in one of those branches would alter the other?
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2018-03-17T14:14:41Z wasamasa: wait until you learn about circular lists
2018-03-17T14:15:04Z zalt: circular what!, lol
2018-03-17T14:15:22Z wasamasa: you can modify the last cons of a list to point to the first cons
2018-03-17T14:15:38Z zalt: hahaha, what the hell
2018-03-17T14:16:27Z wasamasa: clearly you haven't drawn enough box and pointer diagrams
2018-03-17T14:16:45Z ski: "the point it is done this way is so you can have for example multiple lists point to the same begining?" -- yes, but usually we tend to not think much about that ("it just works"), unless we're mutating lists
2018-03-17T14:18:35Z ski: if mutation can happen anywhere, then we'd need to, as a precaution, copy our list inputs, to make sure the caller later modifying them doesn't affect our answer, which may involve "pointing" to those input lists (or tails of them)
2018-03-17T14:19:11Z ski: however, if mutation is the exception, then we can avoid this wasteful extra copy step, and just reuse freely
2018-03-17T14:19:49Z ski: that way, using immutable data structures (or refraining from mutating them), can lead to *less* copying
2018-03-17T14:20:40Z zalt: i see, it makes sense, that explains why immutable data is a big deal in functional programming :D
2018-03-17T14:20:44Z ski: (of course, if we're only interested in ephemeral data structures, where we almost never want to keep old versions around, this argument may be less convincing)
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2018-03-17T14:22:11Z ski: if you have a reference to a data structure that you're sure you have the only reference to, then you could still mutate it, internally in your algorithm, before presenting the final output
2018-03-17T14:22:26Z ski: e.g. building a list from start-towards-end, rather than the other way around
2018-03-17T14:23:35Z ski: (however, even using mutation locally, like this, may be more costly than one might think. it may make the GC do more work, if you use mutation, in a system where mutation is expected to be rare)
2018-03-17T14:24:21Z zalt: i see, as long as i keep everything in a closed box and my choices are not affecting the callers of my functions
2018-03-17T14:24:53Z ski: you should be safe, at least as regards the observable behaviour, the correctness, of your procedure, yes
2018-03-17T14:25:13Z ski: (not counting the complexity)
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2018-03-17T14:28:21Z ski: zalt : .. anyway, did you follow my other two points ?
2018-03-17T14:28:26Z ski: (regarding your pastes)
2018-03-17T14:29:58Z zalt: ski: i haven't written the reduce function myself, i just copy pasted its definition after i realized it's not a built in :D
2018-03-17T14:31:20Z zalt: but why can stating right-associativity be a big deal? i honestly should learn more about high order functions
2018-03-17T14:32:42Z ski: well, i would probably call it `reduce-right', or something similar, since it's more akin to the procedure of that name in SRFI-1 <https://srfi.schemers.org/srfi-1/srfi-1.html#reduce-right>, than to the one named `reduce' there (a little above) (i might have called that `reduce-left' instead, reserving `reduce' for a variant that assumes the callback is associative)
2018-03-17T14:33:04Z ski: i'm not sure what you mean by "stating right-associativity"
2018-03-17T14:33:29Z ski: given a call
2018-03-17T14:33:37Z ski:   (reduce f (list a b c d))
2018-03-17T14:33:55Z ski: one can imagine two "extreme" "leanings", namely
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2018-03-17T14:34:06Z ski:   (f (f (f a b) c) d)
2018-03-17T14:34:06Z ski: vs.
2018-03-17T14:34:17Z ski:   (f a (f b (f c d)))
2018-03-17T14:35:31Z ski: of course, other ways of grouping/associating this may also be useful, e.g. to avoid using much stack, in a system with severe limits of stack, or where one can assign "parallel" subexpressions to be evaluated in parallel on free cores. so in this case, that would correspond to
2018-03-17T14:35:36Z ski:   (f (f a b) (f c d))
2018-03-17T14:36:17Z ski: if `f' is an associative procedure, then it doesn't matter (for correctness, though it may matter for performance, and stack constraints) which of these interpretations are used
2018-03-17T14:36:36Z ski: if `f' is not associative, then it definitely matters which is used
2018-03-17T14:37:25Z zalt: oh i see, :D
2018-03-17T14:38:03Z ski: so, seeing as how SRFI-1 calls the left-leaning version `reduce', and the right-leaning version `reduce-right', it may be confusing for you to name your right-leaning version `reduce'. that's all i'm saying
2018-03-17T14:38:49Z zalt: i see, so by default it is assumed that it's left-leaning
2018-03-17T14:39:03Z ski: that's how SRFI does it, anyway
2018-03-17T14:40:17Z ski: (i'd prefer it if plain `reduce' assumed an associative procedure, or more generally didn't given any guarantees about which leaning/associativity was used, so that you'd better, eventually, not care about which of them was used -- eventually, you'd get "equivalent" results, FSVO "equivalent")
2018-03-17T14:40:48Z ski: (and then `reduce-left' would be invoked when one specifically wanted the left associating version)
2018-03-17T14:41:05Z ski: (er, how SRFI 1 does it)
2018-03-17T14:42:12Z zalt: in my case (finding maximum number), both reduce and reduce-right would be correct right?
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2018-03-17T14:43:04Z zalt: i mean, the other version of the function would give us the same result
2018-03-17T14:45:27Z zalt: i can't find the definition of other reduce :O
2018-03-17T14:46:58Z zalt: it's the difference of applying (func (car list) ..cdr.. vs  (func ..cdr.. (car list right?
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2018-03-17T14:47:26Z zalt: s/cdr/reduce/
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2018-03-17T14:48:49Z ski: "would give us the same result" -- yes, since `max' is associative
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2018-03-17T14:50:08Z ski: "it's the difference of applying ..." -- not quite. what you suggested would amount to a *reordering* of a list. but we're only concerned about grouping/association here, not reordering (which to be safe to do requires the callback to be commutative)
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2018-03-17T14:53:11Z zalt: ski: i mean like this: https://paste.debian.net/1015225/
2018-03-17T14:53:13Z ski: instead, it's the difference between `(func (car list) (reduce-right right-seed (cdr list)))' and `(reduce-left (func left-seed (car list)) (cdr list))'
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2018-03-17T14:53:25Z zalt: is my modification in the second one correct?
2018-03-17T14:53:34Z zalt: oh nvm, it seems so
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2018-03-17T14:53:41Z ski: where the initial `left-seed' would either be a left identity (in case empty lists are allowed), or else the first element of the list
2018-03-17T14:54:30Z ski: and the `right-seed', which stays the same all the time, would be a right identity. alternatively, if only non-empty lists are allowed, one wouldn't pass it around, instead using the last element of the list, at the end
2018-03-17T14:55:44Z ski: (er, for some reason i forgot that `func' should also be passed to `reduce-right' and `reduce-left' above)
2018-03-17T14:56:59Z ski: zalt : what you call `reduce-left' there doesn't perform the left-associated nesting
2018-03-17T14:57:02Z ski:   (f (f (f a b) c) d)
2018-03-17T14:57:04Z ski: from
2018-03-17T14:57:13Z ski:   (reduce-left f (list a b c d))
2018-03-17T14:57:17Z ski: rather, it amounts to
2018-03-17T14:57:37Z ski:   (f (f (f d c) b) a)
2018-03-17T14:57:44Z ski: iow to
2018-03-17T14:57:56Z ski:   (reduce-right f (reverse (list a b c d)))
2018-03-17T14:58:35Z ski: er, rather
2018-03-17T14:59:02Z ski:   (reduce-right (lambda (x r) (f r x)) (reverse (list a b c d)))
2018-03-17T14:59:11Z ski: (with the arguments to `f' flipped)
2018-03-17T15:00:09Z ski: i.e., if `(flip-f x r)' is `(f r x)', then your code amounts to
2018-03-17T15:00:25Z ski:   (flip-f a (flip-f b (flip-f c d)))
2018-03-17T15:01:35Z ski: (which is clearly a right-associated reduction, the association/grouping mirrors that of the nesting of the pairs in the linked list, rather than going the opposite way around, as for a left leaning reduction)
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2018-03-17T15:03:51Z ski: (if one wanted to, one could define a new "left-leaning" list type, where a list would either be an empty list, or a "snoc" pair of a (possibly empty) prefix/init, coupled with a final element. then the roles of "left" and "right" would be reversed when doing reduction. so the asymmetry here comes from the asymmetry of how we represent our lists as single-linked lists "leaning to the right")
2018-03-17T15:05:02Z ski: zalt : makes sense ? do you understand how to correct your `reduce-left' ?
2018-03-17T15:05:16Z zalt: yes wait
2018-03-17T15:05:24Z zalt: i want to figure out the difference myself :D
2018-03-17T15:05:31Z ski: sure :)
2018-03-17T15:05:58Z zalt added 20 (display 's in the called function
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2018-03-17T15:40:06Z zalt: ski: idk lol, is that it? https://ideone.com/yROKZk
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2018-03-17T15:41:32Z zalt realizes the answer is no
2018-03-17T15:41:48Z zalt goes to read 20 pages of documentation about the behaviour of the function
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2018-03-17T15:59:51Z ski: (zalt : `reduce-what' calls `reduce-left', rather than itself)
2018-03-17T16:01:08Z ski: zalt : `reduce-last' is obviously wrong, since it doesn't use `(car list)' in the alternative case (also, naming it `reduce-last' suggests a confusion about what the difference between the two reduction operations amounts to, i believe)
2018-03-17T16:02:21Z ski: i can see your `reduce-left' attempted to fix that (former) problem with `reduce-last' .. unfortunately, it's still wrong
2018-03-17T16:02:24Z ski: now
2018-03-17T16:02:36Z ski:   (reduce-left f (list a b c d e))
2018-03-17T16:02:38Z ski: amounts to
2018-03-17T16:03:10Z ski:   (f (f (f (f d e) c) b) a)
2018-03-17T16:03:18Z ski: so we have some mangled ordering
2018-03-17T16:03:26Z ski: (also, it no longer works on singleton lists)
2018-03-17T16:05:44Z ski: zalt : the reason your tests indicated success is that `lrgr' (ignoring the output side-effects) is commutative/symmetric (order of arguments doesn't matter)
2018-03-17T16:07:41Z ski: zalt : fwiw, the implementation of `reduce-left' should (while being simpler than your current attempt), *not* look that similar to `reduce-right'. if you're thinking they should be symmetric in some sense, that's wrong. they should be asymmetric to each other, since the notion of "right-leaning single-linked list" is an asymmetric notion
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2018-03-17T16:39:08Z duncanm: rudybot: eval (-)
2018-03-17T16:39:12Z rudybot: duncanm: your sandbox is ready
2018-03-17T16:39:12Z rudybot: duncanm: error: -: arity mismatch; <NEWLINE>  the expected number of arguments does not match the given number <NEWLINE>   expected: at least 1 <NEWLINE>   given: 0
2018-03-17T16:39:21Z duncanm: I see
2018-03-17T16:39:22Z zalt: ski: https://paste.debian.net/hidden/fc4395bc/
2018-03-17T16:39:31Z zalt: if that's not it, i'm gonna uninstall racket lol
2018-03-17T16:42:08Z zalt: from the output, i think at least it does something equivalent? https://ideone.com/QYhOzv
2018-03-17T16:44:32Z zalt: i'm not familiar with fold, foldr, i think i should read about the whole gang
2018-03-17T16:45:40Z ski: zalt : ah, a working implementation ! :)
2018-03-17T16:45:49Z zalt: hahaha, finally
2018-03-17T16:46:31Z ski: note that your first clause in your `cond'itional is redundant
2018-03-17T16:47:17Z zalt: what if it's a null list? should we be worrying about that case?
2018-03-17T16:47:24Z zalt: umf wait
2018-03-17T16:47:30Z ski: if `(cddr list)' is the empty list, then your last case would then recursively call the middle case, yielding the same answer as the removed first case
2018-03-17T16:48:36Z zalt: right! :D
2018-03-17T16:48:54Z ski: next, i suggest defining a function `reduce-left-cons', such that `(reduce-left-cons fun elt lis)' is equivalent to `(reduce-left fun (cons elt lis))'
2018-03-17T16:49:51Z zalt: is there a shorter function for (car (cdr ?
2018-03-17T16:50:03Z ski: rudybot: eval (cadr (list 0 1 2 3 4))
2018-03-17T16:50:03Z rudybot: ski: ; Value: 1
2018-03-17T16:50:59Z ski: can you define such a `reduce-left-cons' ? (it shouldn't be hard)
2018-03-17T16:52:04Z zalt: wait so it just initially inserts one element?
2018-03-17T16:52:56Z zalt: or does it do that for all calls
2018-03-17T16:53:13Z ski: it should call `cons' once
2018-03-17T16:53:56Z ski: (again, it shouldn't be hard. it's not a trick question. the important part would be the next step, after doing this)
2018-03-17T17:03:04Z ski looks at zalt
2018-03-17T17:03:55Z zalt: lol one trivial way would be just make a function, redefine lis to be (cons elt lis), call reduce-left
2018-03-17T17:04:54Z zalt: no?
2018-03-17T17:07:21Z ski: yes, i'm just waiting for you to show you follow&understand what i mean, so far
2018-03-17T17:10:43Z zalt: https://ideone.com/HKpMkK
2018-03-17T17:11:57Z ski: good
2018-03-17T17:12:11Z ski: then, instead of having `reduce-left-cons' call `reduce-left' (which calls itself), turn it around, so that now `reduce-left' calls `reduce-left-cons', which calls itself .. iow, adapt your recursion so that `reduce-left-cons' does the meat of the work, and `reduce-left' is a thin wrapper around it, rather than the other way around
2018-03-17T17:13:05Z ski: you should be able to do this, so that still "(reduce-left-cons fun elt lis)' is equivalent to `(reduce-left fun (cons elt lis))'" holds, and the two procedures behave the same, when called, as before
2018-03-17T17:13:29Z ski: (but now `reduce-left-cons' won't call `cons' and `reduce-left')
2018-03-17T17:16:01Z zalt: https://ideone.com/HKpMkK
2018-03-17T17:16:31Z zalt: wait, that isn't what you mean right?
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2018-03-17T17:19:38Z zalt: i think have been promoted in dealing with lists, now i'm level 0.5
2018-03-17T17:22:42Z X-Scale: zalt: what does lrgr stand for ? left right greater...
2018-03-17T17:23:35Z ski: zalt : nope, your `reduce-left-cons' still isn't recursively defined
2018-03-17T17:24:53Z klovett quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2018-03-17T17:24:59Z zalt: X-Scale: it doesn't stand for anything, just max with some (display lines
2018-03-17T17:25:16Z ski: (a) rename your `reduce' that is defined inside `reduce-left-cons' to `reduce-left', for consistency with how i termed it; then (b) (somehow) change this whole definition of both `reduce-left' and `reduce-left-cons', so that instead of the latter calling the former, which calls itself, the former calls the latter, which calls itself
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2018-03-17T17:25:32Z ski: (but both of them still gives the same outputs for the same inputs)
2018-03-17T17:26:01Z ski: if you prefer, you could move the inner definition outside of the outer one, so that they are "sibling" definitions, alongside each other
2018-03-17T17:28:04Z zalt: what i have now is reduce-left calling reduce-left-cons, maybe the color isn't making clear
2018-03-17T17:28:17Z zalt: making it*
2018-03-17T17:29:15Z ski: yes, but you still don't have `reduce-left-cons' calling itself recursively
2018-03-17T17:29:56Z zalt: how would i do that? lol, it'd insert the element each time unless i call it with (cadr lis) as the element
2018-03-17T17:30:31Z ski: your current `reduce', which i prefer to call `reduce-left' is doing most of the work, while `reduce-left-cons' does only a little bit of work, delegating most of it to `reduce-left'
2018-03-17T17:30:40Z ski: i'm suggesting you turn this on its head
2018-03-17T17:31:29Z ski: so that `reduce-left-cons' does most of the work (calling itself, *not* calling another procedure, locally defined or not, for the recursive traversal of the list), and `reduce-left' instead mostly delegating to `reduce-left-cons'
2018-03-17T17:31:46Z ski: you already know that "(reduce-left-cons fun elt lis)' is equivalent to `(reduce-left fun (cons elt lis))'"
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2018-03-17T17:32:29Z ski: therefore the recursive call `(reduce-left (cons (func (car lis) (cadr lis)) (cddr lis)))' can be replaced by .. what ?
2018-03-17T17:33:22Z ski: (s/is equivalent to/is supposed to be equivalent to/)
2018-03-17T17:34:33Z zalt: refresh the ideone link
2018-03-17T17:34:40Z zalt: idk if it's correct, but if it is, it's much simpler
2018-03-17T17:34:58Z zalt: oh wait
2018-03-17T17:35:01Z zalt: run time error lol
2018-03-17T17:35:35Z ski: now you renamed `reduce' into `reduce-left-cons', not into `reduce-left' :/
2018-03-17T17:35:51Z zalt: now
2018-03-17T17:36:32Z zalt: what did you expect? https://ideone.com/HKpMkK
2018-03-17T17:37:31Z zalt: oh, whatever
2018-03-17T17:38:11Z ski: let's get back to this version, ok :
2018-03-17T17:38:14Z ski:   (define (reduce-left-cons func elt list)
2018-03-17T17:38:23Z ski:     (define (reduce lis)
2018-03-17T17:38:30Z ski:       (cond
2018-03-17T17:38:38Z ski:         ((null? (cdr lis)) (car lis))
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2018-03-17T17:38:55Z ski:         (else (reduce (cons (func (car lis) (cadr lis)) (cddr lis))))))
2018-03-17T17:39:04Z ski:     (reduce (cons elt list)))
2018-03-17T17:39:28Z ski: and let's *not* make a separate `reduce-left' definition, as you did. (at least not yet)
2018-03-17T17:39:49Z ski: first, i rename `reduce' to `reduce-left', since that's what it does
2018-03-17T17:39:54Z ski:   (define (reduce-left-cons func elt list)
2018-03-17T17:40:04Z ski:     (define (reduce-left lis)
2018-03-17T17:40:07Z ski:       (cond
2018-03-17T17:40:09Z ski:         ((null? (cdr lis)) (car lis))
2018-03-17T17:40:15Z ski:         (else (reduce-left (cons (func (car lis) (cadr lis)) (cddr lis))))))
2018-03-17T17:40:23Z ski:     (reduce-left (cons elt list)))
2018-03-17T17:40:52Z zalt: but it wouldn't be visible on the file scope right?
2018-03-17T17:41:01Z ski: right, not yet
2018-03-17T17:41:03Z ski: next, for clarity, i move the inner definition out. we can do this, because it doesn't depend on the outer nonlocals (here parameters) `func',`elt',`list'
2018-03-17T17:41:21Z ski:   (define (reduce-left-cons func elt list)
2018-03-17T17:41:27Z ski:     (reduce-left (cons elt list)))
2018-03-17T17:41:34Z ski:   (define (reduce-left lis)
2018-03-17T17:41:37Z ski:     (cond
2018-03-17T17:41:41Z ski:       ((null? (cdr lis)) (car lis))
2018-03-17T17:41:54Z ski:       (else (reduce-left (cons (func (car lis) (cadr lis)) (cddr lis))))))
2018-03-17T17:42:24Z ski: at this point, i suggest "turning this dependency on its head"
2018-03-17T17:42:56Z ski: so that instead of `reduce-left-cons' calling `reduce-left', which calls itself, we should have `reduce-left' calling `reduce-left-cons', which calls itself
2018-03-17T17:43:16Z ski: so, the meat of the work should be done inside `reduce-left-cons', rather than inside `reduce-left'
2018-03-17T17:44:10Z zalt: but that's how i have it?
2018-03-17T17:44:21Z zalt: (define (reduce-left-cons func elt list )
2018-03-17T17:44:24Z ski: (before, when `reduce-left' was defined inside `reduce-left-cons', we'd often call this an example of a "worker-wrapper" "pattern", where `reduce-left' then was the worker, and `reduce-left-cons' was the wrapper. now, i'm suggesting letting `reduce-left' be the wrapper, and `reduce-left-cons' be the worker)
2018-03-17T17:44:33Z zalt:     (cond
2018-03-17T17:44:36Z zalt:       ((null? (cdr list)) (car list))
2018-03-17T17:44:39Z zalt:       (else (reduce-left-cons func (func elt (car list)) (cdr list)))))
2018-03-17T17:44:45Z ski: zalt : yes, that's what you have in your last paste, except it is borked, doesn't work
2018-03-17T17:44:54Z zalt: i fixed it
2018-03-17T17:45:01Z zalt: it was just a matter of renaming a variable :D
2018-03-17T17:45:06Z ski: (which is why i suggested going back to this previously working definition)
2018-03-17T17:45:41Z ski: nope, sorry, that's still wrong
2018-03-17T17:45:55Z ski: `elt' isn't used in the base case
2018-03-17T17:46:24Z ski: (but you're close, so don't give up)
2018-03-17T17:46:50Z zalt: what do you mean it isn't used?
2018-03-17T17:47:03Z ski: in the base case, you return `(car list)'
2018-03-17T17:47:09Z zalt: oh!
2018-03-17T17:47:10Z zalt: lol
2018-03-17T17:47:28Z zalt: haha, yeah that should be just (func elt (car list))
2018-03-17T17:47:41Z ski: `(reduce-left-cons f 0 (list 1)' should amount to `(f 0 1)', not to `1'
2018-03-17T17:48:35Z ski: also, `(reduce-left-cons f 0 (list))' should amount to `(reduce-left f (cons 0 (list)))', which previously gave `0'
2018-03-17T17:48:47Z ski: but your current `reduce-left-cons' will fail on this call
2018-03-17T17:49:42Z zalt: i updated it
2018-03-17T17:50:03Z ski: you still need to fix the latter issue above
2018-03-17T17:50:49Z zalt: i think it doesn't have that issue? at first comparison it calls with 0>1
2018-03-17T17:51:14Z ski: if `list' is the empty list, then `(null? (cdr list))' will error out
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2018-03-17T17:52:11Z ski: while your `reduce-left' isn't defined to work on the empty list, `reduce-left-cons' still should work on the empty list, since it should behave the same as a call to `reduce-left' on a `cons' list
2018-03-17T17:54:21Z ski: "i think it doesn't have that issue? at first comparison it calls with 0>1" -- none of your tests attempts to call `reduce-left' on a singleton list, or `reduce-left-cons' on an empty list
2018-03-17T17:55:08Z ski: it's important to check that extreme inputs, such as these, when reasonable, works properly
2018-03-17T17:57:30Z ski: (and, if there's a reasonable way to define an operation on such an extreme value, even if it doesn't appear that useful, as long as it's not too much effort to handle such cases, i'd recommend handling them. such "trivial" inputs occur more often than one'd think, and allowing them will enable other parts of the system to be simpler. also, not uncommonly, the implementing code in question will also in fact turn out to be simpler)
2018-03-17T17:57:52Z zalt: i'm not sure what it's behavior is supposed to be, if the list is empty then return elt?
2018-03-17T17:58:16Z ski: "`(reduce-left-cons fun elt lis)' is equivalent to `(reduce-left fun (cons elt lis))'" should hold
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2018-03-17T17:58:53Z jcowan: reduce is really a special case of fold: it's simpler to learn fold, and then see where you can simplify it to reduce
2018-03-17T17:58:54Z ski: and the (external) behaviour of `reduce-left-cons' and `reduce-left', after this change of responsibility, should be the same as before
2018-03-17T17:59:15Z ski: jcowan : yes, but now zalt started with `reduce', so i went with that
2018-03-17T17:59:42Z jcowan: fair
2018-03-17T18:00:51Z ski: zalt : before `(reduce-left fun (list a))' amounted to just `a'. but `(list a)' is the same as `(cons a (list))', and so `(reduce-left fun (list a))' is the same as `(reduce-left fun (cons a (list)))', which then ought to be the same as `(reduce-left-cons fun a (list))'
2018-03-17T18:01:09Z ski: therefore, `(reduce-left-cons fun a (list))' ought to result in just `a'
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2018-03-17T18:02:06Z ski: rudybot: eval (list)  -- note that calling the procedure `list' with no arguments produces the empty list. don't confuse the procedure `list' i was using, with your local variable (parameter) `list', which holds the input list
2018-03-17T18:02:07Z rudybot: ski: error: --: undefined; <NEWLINE>  cannot reference an identifier before its definition <NEWLINE>   in module: 'program
2018-03-17T18:02:12Z ski: rudybot: eval (list)  ;; note that calling the procedure `list' with no arguments produces the empty list. don't confuse the procedure `list' i was using, with your local variable (parameter) `list', which holds the input list
2018-03-17T18:02:12Z rudybot: ski: ; Value: '()
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2018-03-17T18:10:30Z zalt: ski: the middle condition is redundant too now? :O
2018-03-17T18:11:29Z ski: which is the "middle condition" ?
2018-03-17T18:11:45Z zalt: (define (reduce-left-cons func elt lis )
2018-03-17T18:11:45Z zalt:    (cond
2018-03-17T18:11:45Z zalt:        ((null? lis) elt)
2018-03-17T18:11:45Z zalt:        ((null? (cdr lis)) (func elt (car lis)))
2018-03-17T18:11:45Z zalt:        (else (reduce-left-cons func (func elt (car lis)) (cdr lis)))))
2018-03-17T18:12:28Z ski: ok
2018-03-17T18:12:30Z ski: yes, it is
2018-03-17T18:12:38Z zalt: how? :|
2018-03-17T18:12:39Z ski: so, you've arrived at a simpler base case
2018-03-17T18:13:29Z zalt: oh i see,
2018-03-17T18:13:42Z ski: well, if `(cdr list)' is the empty list, but we've reached the last branch, because we removed the middle one, then we compute `(func elt (car lis))', and pass it as the `elt' parameter of the next recursive call, passing `(cdr list)' (the empty list) as the next `lis'
2018-03-17T18:14:12Z ski: and then the first branch will return that `elt', which is `(func elt (car lis))', which is what the middle branch would have returned, had we not removed it
2018-03-17T18:14:51Z zalt: lisp is weird
2018-03-17T18:15:10Z ski: note how, by insisting on simpler (more extreme) base case working, we're stayed trying to the DRY principle ("Don't Repeat Yourself") : before, we mentioned `(func elt (car lis))' twice. now we only mention it once
2018-03-17T18:15:33Z ski: s/we're stayed trying/we've stayed truer/
2018-03-17T18:16:29Z ski: also note how `reduce-left-cons' (and also your previous version of `reduce-left', before we "turned it on its head") is tail-recursive, while `reduce-right' isn't
2018-03-17T18:16:51Z ski: this asymmetry comes from the asymmetry of the notion of "single-linked right-leaning list")
2018-03-17T18:17:45Z ski: you should also note that your `reduce-left-cons' is the same as `fold-left' (called just `fold' in SRFI 1)
2018-03-17T18:17:55Z ski: perhaps you can now go on to define `fold-right' ?
2018-03-17T18:18:20Z zalt: no! my brain is exhausted
2018-03-17T18:19:11Z ski: (the versions in SRFI 1 can handle multiple lists, not just one. your versions only handle one. if you want to do `fold-right', it's ok for it to only handle one list as well. handling multiple lists is a further generalization)
2018-03-17T18:19:43Z ski: zalt : sure, do rest, take your time. i'm just suggesting what you could try next time, if you feel like
2018-03-17T18:20:09Z ski: i hope this session wasn't too frustrating, on your part
2018-03-17T18:20:34Z ski: (your brain being exhausted (hopefully) means that you're learning new things)
2018-03-17T18:20:59Z ski: zalt : good luck with further studies, and last but not least : have fun !
2018-03-17T18:21:09Z ski: (having fun, playing around, helps with learning)
2018-03-17T18:21:22Z zalt: haha, yeah i had fun
2018-03-17T18:21:40Z zalt: i wonder are people exaggerating when they say lisp is programmable?
2018-03-17T18:21:55Z zalt: i mean can you define new syntax without diving into parsing and stuff?
2018-03-17T18:21:58Z ski: well, i'm not sure what they mean by that
2018-03-17T18:22:13Z ski: all programming language are programmable, in one sense : you program in them
2018-03-17T18:23:00Z ski: however, Lisps traditionally have support for meta-programming, letting programs generate other programs, or letting programs analyze other programs
2018-03-17T18:23:06Z zalt: yes but i've never tried a programming language that's as flexible as lisp
2018-03-17T18:23:12Z ski: (and macros are related to this as well)
2018-03-17T18:23:32Z zalt: i mean using just a small set of tools you can build all these complex things
2018-03-17T18:23:35Z X-Scale: zalt: I guess the idea is that you can easily create other languages inside LISP, languages taylored to the specific domain of your problem. Scheme allowing you to define new syntax helps a lot in that direction.
2018-03-17T18:24:42Z ski: (then one could imagine another sense of "programmable", as in the book "The Art of the Metaobject Protocol" (which i haven't read), or as in being able to overload the normal kind of procedure application, as Racket allows)
2018-03-17T18:25:30Z zalt: X-Scale: can you give me an example of new syntax that you could define?
2018-03-17T18:27:31Z zalt: i mean heck, can you do something like "array -> 5" evaluate to the element at idx 5 in the array
2018-03-17T18:28:56Z zalt: oh, there are macros and stuff
2018-03-17T18:29:22Z zalt: so macros+the flexibility of lisp makes anything possible i imagine
2018-03-17T18:29:39Z X-Scale: zalt: there's a very recent ACM article that talks about it -> https://cacm.acm.org/magazines/2018/3/225475-a-programmable-programming-language/fulltext
2018-03-17T18:30:07Z X-Scale: The pdf looks good -> https://cacm.acm.org/magazines/2018/3/225475-a-programmable-programming-language/pdf
2018-03-17T18:31:42Z zalt: i will skim through it, ty
2018-03-17T18:35:54Z ski: zalt : <https://srfi.schemers.org/srfi-159/srfi-159.html> defines a language (an EDSL, in this case) of output formatters
2018-03-17T18:37:47Z Zipheir: Hi, all.
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2018-03-17T19:10:18Z duncanm: Hello hello
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2018-03-17T22:59:20Z TCZ: czesc hi xd
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2018-03-18T02:37:47Z siraben: Has anyone written a toy Scheme->C compiler here?
2018-03-18T02:37:54Z siraben: *or not toy
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2018-03-18T02:54:34Z qu1j0t3: i assume you're excluding Chicken
2018-03-18T02:55:08Z qu1j0t3: (which has its own channel if you wanted to pick their brains)
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2018-03-18T03:12:49Z akkad: or #gerbil-scheme or #bigloo
2018-03-18T03:20:16Z jcowan: Or, indeed, Scheme->C
2018-03-18T03:23:14Z jcowan: http://www.hpl.hp.com/techreports/Compaq-DEC/WRL-89-1.pdf
2018-03-18T03:24:29Z jcowan: also https://github.com/barak/scheme2c
2018-03-18T03:25:09Z jcowan: there is another compiler of the same name at https://github.com/akeep/scheme-to-c
2018-03-18T03:26:30Z jcowan: the latter runs on either Chez or Ikarus/Vicare using the nanopass framework
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2018-03-18T06:23:04Z duncanm: Talking about Joel Bartlett, I really dig this project - https://github.com/ProgrammerArchaeology/ezd
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2018-03-18T09:57:46Z wasamasa: there's even a guide for doing such a thing by the gambit guy
2018-03-18T09:58:00Z wasamasa: http://churchturing.org/y/90-min-scc.pdf
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2018-03-18T12:35:31Z siraben: wasamasa: thanks for the PDF
2018-03-18T12:36:33Z siraben: wasamasa: So now I can compile the following grammar: https://hastebin.com/nowalewazu.xml
2018-03-18T12:36:55Z siraben: But implementing closures in C seems to be a bit trickier than I thought
2018-03-18T12:37:06Z siraben: Anyone listening in: I'm trying to write a Scheme->C compiler
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2018-03-18T12:48:23Z longshi: siraben: anywhere one can follow your work? a blog, perhaps?
2018-03-18T12:48:35Z pjb: siraben: not really. struct { proc_pr proc;env_t* env } closure;
2018-03-18T12:49:17Z pjb: siraben: only you need to call all the lisp functions by passing the env.
2018-03-18T12:49:32Z pjb: siraben: cf. Lisp in Small Pieces   http://pagesperso-systeme.lip6.fr/Christian.Queinnec/WWW/LiSP.html  http://pagesperso-systeme.lip6.fr/Christian.Queinnec/Books/LiSP-2ndEdition-2006Dec11.tgz
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2018-03-18T13:12:52Z siraben: pjb: Thanks
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2018-03-18T13:21:37Z siraben: longshi: pjb: I just set up a Github repo https://github.com/siraben/scheme-to-c
2018-03-18T13:21:46Z siraben: It can compile simple expressions, but no closures yet
2018-03-18T13:22:17Z siraben: Compiles to a C-like/Assembly style of code
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2018-03-18T13:31:39Z pjb: siraben: you need an emit-lambda.  All procedure are closures. And closures contain a function and an environment.  Toplevel functions are closures of a procedure and the toplevel-environment.
2018-03-18T13:32:18Z pjb: siraben: when you implement emit-call, you need to pass the environment to the C function, in addition to the other parameters
2018-03-18T13:33:33Z pjb: You need an emit-variable-reference that will search for the variable in the environment.
2018-03-18T13:34:21Z pjb: For lexical variables, you can determine at compilation-time in what run-time environment record the variable is stored.  So you can emit quick indexed references for those variables
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2018-03-18T13:36:00Z pjb: eg. (let ((x 42)) (lambda (y) (+ x y)))   would generate for the procedure something like: result_t fun1234(env_t* env,object_t y){ return add(env->variables[0],y); }
2018-03-18T13:40:46Z siraben: Can env_t* be implemented as a cons structure?
2018-03-18T13:41:28Z siraben: pjb: So I would need to keep track of the free variable "x" in this case?
2018-03-18T13:42:01Z pjb: yes.
2018-03-18T13:42:17Z pjb: ultimately free variables would have to be bound in the runtime-environment.
2018-03-18T13:42:37Z pjb: Notice how those r5rs-environment, runtime-environment and toplevel-environment are defined in r5rs…
2018-03-18T13:42:38Z siraben: pjb: What benefit would converting code to CPS have?
2018-03-18T13:43:17Z pjb: To generate to C, I don't think much, because C compilers don't necessarily implement TCO.
2018-03-18T13:43:26Z pjb: But it may help in implementing the compiler.
2018-03-18T13:43:39Z siraben: I think when I have procedures, tail calls are trivial to implement with goto statements
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2018-03-18T13:44:07Z pjb: you need to keep track of "x" only in the compiler.  The environment in the compiler would map x to the index in the run-time environment record.
2018-03-18T13:44:22Z siraben: I'm keeping the code very simple to make self-hosting easier.
2018-03-18T13:44:23Z pjb: you could want to keep the name "x" around in the runtime environment for debugging purpose.
2018-03-18T13:44:30Z siraben: I'm using C's lexical scope for let statements
2018-03-18T13:44:38Z pjb: In C, you cannot goto across functions.
2018-03-18T13:44:47Z siraben: Like int x = 4; { int x = 5; printf("%d", x); } results in 5
2018-03-18T13:45:19Z pjb: But theorically, you can put all the code of your program in a single big C function, using goto.  But C compilers can be very slow to compile big functions. It may even go over C compiler limits.
2018-03-18T13:45:25Z pjb: siraben: indeed.
2018-03-18T13:45:45Z pjb: ((let ((x 4)) (let ((x 5)) (lambda () x)))) --> 5
2018-03-18T13:46:13Z siraben: Thankfully there are a couple of Scheme compiler guides out there, but all of them target x86, and the self-hosting ones aren't easy to follow
2018-03-18T13:46:21Z siraben: not all but most*
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2018-03-18T13:47:15Z siraben: pjb: Do you have a Scheme implementation in C?
2018-03-18T13:48:01Z pjb: siraben: cf. Lisp in Small Pieces   http://pagesperso-systeme.lip6.fr/Christian.Queinnec/WWW/LiSP.html  http://pagesperso-systeme.lip6.fr/Christian.Queinnec/Books/LiSP-2ndEdition-2006Dec11.tgz
2018-03-18T13:48:15Z pjb: there are 9 different implementations of scheme in C in this book!
2018-03-18T13:48:44Z siraben: pjb: is there a PDF copy avaliable or do I buy it?
2018-03-18T13:48:48Z siraben: Wow
2018-03-18T13:49:12Z pjb: I know of no pdf for this book. But it's well worth its price.
2018-03-18T13:49:55Z siraben: 11 interpreters and 2 compilers according to its Amazon page
2018-03-18T13:49:56Z siraben: wow
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2018-03-18T13:52:10Z siraben: pjb: So of course I pass in the environment, but doesn't that mean I need frames as well? For example this: https://hastebin.com/eyuguqovip.lisp
2018-03-18T13:52:58Z siraben: It results in a #<CLOSURE> but with the local variable withdraw
2018-03-18T13:53:48Z pjb: The C compiler already generates frames for its functions.  In the case of local scheme functions, you can implement them the general way with closures. Or you could try to optimize them by generating a big C function with goto; then you may need frames, notably if they're recursive.
2018-03-18T13:55:44Z siraben: Hmm, interesting.
2018-03-18T13:56:50Z siraben: There's an alternative approach to Scheme compilation, something called the nanopass framework which emphasizes many small program transformations instead of large stages,
2018-03-18T13:57:08Z pjb: I would defer optimization to later, making them more abstractly and sophisticated.  In a first step, I would just generate closures for local functions.
2018-03-18T13:57:22Z siraben: Alright, sounds good.
2018-03-18T13:57:41Z siraben: Can't wait for it to be self-hosting, it'll be interesting.
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2018-03-18T15:15:32Z clavero: I'm trying to design a generic function that acts on different types, something
2018-03-18T15:15:32Z clavero: like a + that acts in integers, reals or other types that I may define later.
2018-03-18T15:15:41Z clavero: But I feel like I am reinventing methods and OOP again, and I'm not doing it
2018-03-18T15:15:44Z clavero: in a functionalish way/I'm thinking in Python.
2018-03-18T15:15:53Z clavero: How would you guys do it?
2018-03-18T15:16:16Z qu1j0t3: maybe typeclasses? :-)   But seriously, this is covered in SICP, Chapter 2
2018-03-18T15:16:47Z vyzo: there are many ways to do it
2018-03-18T15:18:01Z clavero: The thing with SICP is that I feel like they are implementing something on top of scheme to be able to do it, a dispatch system
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2018-03-18T15:18:14Z clavero: Which is great, but I wondered if there was a more common way to do it
2018-03-18T15:18:21Z qu1j0t3: they are.
2018-03-18T15:18:36Z qu1j0t3: because scheme's typesystem doesn't cover this situation itself.
2018-03-18T15:18:42Z clavero: For example? I would like to see the problem from another point of view
2018-03-18T15:18:53Z clavero: One that I am not used to, to you know, learn and all that stuff
2018-03-18T15:19:10Z qu1j0t3: I mean, "they are ... implementing something on top of scheme" )
2018-03-18T15:19:41Z qu1j0t3: you have no alternative
2018-03-18T15:19:57Z clavero: I see
2018-03-18T15:20:21Z clavero: Thanks!
2018-03-18T15:23:15Z wasamasa: what do you think python does here?
2018-03-18T15:23:31Z wasamasa: it's no different from the sicp method, except less flexible
2018-03-18T15:25:31Z clavero: I guess I feel strange implementing my own systems
2018-03-18T15:25:38Z clavero: I need to unlearn a lot
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2018-03-18T15:26:28Z wasamasa: in python instances look up __add__ when you use + on them
2018-03-18T15:26:42Z wasamasa: in scheme a generic + would look up the equivalent of that
2018-03-18T15:27:54Z wasamasa: also, lol: https://stackoverflow.com/questions/5082190/typeerror-after-overriding-the-add-method
2018-03-18T15:28:01Z wasamasa: very rad, that language
2018-03-18T15:28:32Z clavero: So, I assume that when you write something not trivial in scheme you start writing your own "superset" of the language, in this case for example adding support for methods, and then you solve your problem in that language
2018-03-18T15:29:45Z X-Scale: clavero: hence *the programming programmable language*
2018-03-18T15:29:59Z X-Scale: clavero: https://cacm.acm.org/magazines/2018/3/225475-a-programmable-programming-language/fulltext
2018-03-18T15:30:28Z wasamasa: by that definition every time a java person creates a new class they're writing their own "superset" of the language
2018-03-18T15:30:33Z wasamasa: it's nothing special at all
2018-03-18T15:31:10Z vyzo: perhaps you should think of Scheme as the building block for a language
2018-03-18T15:31:22Z clavero: This feels even more enlightening than learning Haskell
2018-03-18T15:31:24Z clavero: I love it
2018-03-18T15:31:38Z vyzo: it's a small set of primitives
2018-03-18T15:31:40Z wasamasa: the difference is how much is built-in
2018-03-18T15:31:40Z vyzo: plus macros
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2018-03-18T15:32:04Z wasamasa: scheme was designed to have as little as needed in core, with the rest coming from libraries
2018-03-18T15:33:04Z mrm: iirc, scheme's minimalism was just an accident, as sussman and friends were exploring their thoughts about CPS and its ilk.
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2018-03-18T15:34:42Z clavero: Maybe is controversial, I don't know, but what do you guys think of common lisp?
2018-03-18T15:35:31Z clavero: I know very little about scheme or cl, but cl feels like a scheme with a lot of libraries on top just in case
2018-03-18T15:36:16Z mrm: I like how many little knobs and levers it exposes to guide efficient compilation, like type annotations, ability to output assembly, etc.
2018-03-18T15:37:29Z mrm: Like, if CL had hygenic macros, guaranteed PTC and a single namespace, I'd probably prefer it to scheme.
2018-03-18T15:39:40Z vyzo: lol, these are big wants
2018-03-18T15:39:48Z vyzo: that are defining characteristics of scheme
2018-03-18T15:42:00Z mrm: SBCL has PTC, you can fake a single namespace by introducing a 'define' macro that binds both slots of a symbol to the same thing, and a lot of schemes already implement hygene in pretty crippled ways.
2018-03-18T15:44:57Z wasamasa: clavero: I see no reason to learn CL
2018-03-18T15:47:24Z clavero: The only reason I see is "practical", and I'm more into Lisp to learn in an academic sense, that's why I chose Scheme
2018-03-18T15:48:13Z wasamasa: CL is no longer a practical choice
2018-03-18T15:48:14Z mrm: SBCL seems pretty attractive.
2018-03-18T15:48:23Z wasamasa: clojure wins at the job market
2018-03-18T15:49:05Z mrm: If that's the critereon, why not just go java/kotlin or js?
2018-03-18T15:49:25Z wasamasa: the criterion is a lisp allowing development of big things
2018-03-18T15:50:21Z mrm: Maxima seems like a pretty big thing.
2018-03-18T15:50:37Z cmaloney: Nobody remembers Maxima. *sniff*
2018-03-18T15:50:45Z oleo: other than me
2018-03-18T15:50:47Z oleo: lol
2018-03-18T15:51:26Z wasamasa: sure, if I wanted to unravel the mysteries of maxima, that would be a reason to learn CL
2018-03-18T15:51:45Z wasamasa: or just how usable lisp machines are really
2018-03-18T15:52:18Z cmaloney: honestly if I wanted to understand mathematics fully I'd use maxima to unravel those mysteries. :)
2018-03-18T15:52:34Z mrm: There seems to be a lot of big old AI projects in CL generally.
2018-03-18T15:54:40Z mrm: Granted, a lot has happened in the time since, but it doesn't seem like anything nowadays tries to compete in the same space of intricate rule-based system.
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2018-03-18T15:56:19Z wasamasa: you seem to have missed out on everything IBM did
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2018-03-18T15:57:56Z mrm: Watson mostly just uses modern machine learning stuff, no?
2018-03-18T16:03:36Z mrm: Anyhow, I'm mostly an admirer from the outside of CL. Everything practical I do nowadays is in scheme/racket.
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2018-03-18T17:35:26Z X-Scale: Speaking of CL, just found this -> https://google.github.io/styleguide/lispguide.xml
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2018-03-18T17:45:32Z DeeEff: Choice quote from the Meta Language Guidelines > Macros section:
2018-03-18T17:45:33Z DeeEff: > The general conclusion is that there shouldn't be any recognizable design pattern in a good Common Lisp program. The one and only pattern is: use the language, which includes defining and using syntactic abstractions.
2018-03-18T17:45:43Z DeeEff: This is a really good summary of lisp tbh
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2018-03-18T19:30:08Z jcowan: DeeEff: Looking at a list of patterns, I don't know that that is really true.  What macro would sensibly enforce the Singleton or Multiton (all instances are named) patterns?
2018-03-18T19:30:24Z jcowan: I've used both of those in Lisp, but I have programmed them myself and not used a macro to do so for me.
2018-03-18T19:31:52Z DeeEff: I don't know that I would classify those as design patterns, so much as implementation details. Almost seems like asking why we don't have a macro that forces you to write documentation.
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2018-03-18T19:41:58Z jcowan: Sounds like a plan to me.  It could check that the first body element is a string.
2018-03-18T19:42:58Z jcowan: Also, the business about "always use the shorter spelling" is disingenuous: it would prescribe "(database) connexion" instead of "connection", which I
2018-03-18T19:43:16Z jcowan: doubt Google wants.  They should just say "Google is an American company; use American spelling" and be done with it.
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2018-03-18T19:59:20Z dustyweb: greetings schemers
2018-03-18T19:59:35Z dustyweb: sxml!  Does anyone know if there's a tool to have it use namespaces when *writing*?
2018-03-18T19:59:48Z dustyweb: sxml seems to fully expand namespaces on reading, which actually is fine by me
2018-03-18T20:01:35Z jcowan: "Don't Use Namespaces" (tm)
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2018-03-18T20:06:03Z jcowan: "CL macros are at the same time all-powerful [...] and all-ignorant."  A dangerous combination indeed
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2018-03-18T20:14:00Z jcowan: MACROS DO NOT COMPUTE
2018-03-18T20:14:04Z jcowan: THEY ARE NOT PROCEDURES
2018-03-18T20:15:01Z ecraven: they aren't?
2018-03-18T20:17:32Z jcowan: Well, they may be implemented using procedures, but they aren't interchangeable with procedures
2018-03-18T20:17:49Z ecraven: well, in my view, they are macro-expand-time procedures
2018-03-18T20:17:55Z ecraven: not runtime procedures, definitely
2018-03-18T20:18:21Z ecraven: so depending on your definition of "they are not procedures" ;)
2018-03-18T20:18:39Z ecraven: but I concede that for the usual definition of procedure, macros definitely are not it
2018-03-18T20:22:18Z jcowan: Well, that's true for low-level macros, but I never use those myself, so I don't tend to think of them
2018-03-18T20:23:06Z jcowan: I really dread what will happen when discussions of low-level macros are opened up for the Yellow Edition
2018-03-18T20:23:15Z jcowan: there's a reason I want to do the easy things first
2018-03-18T20:26:03Z ecraven: personally, I think of macros as source-to-source transformations
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2018-03-18T20:30:11Z vyzo: piece of the compiler :)
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2018-03-18T20:52:42Z jcowan: yes, certainly source to source, or rather annotated-source
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2018-03-18T20:59:55Z vyzo: they are ast transformers
2018-03-18T21:00:17Z vyzo: picopasses of the compiler
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2018-03-18T21:12:33Z jcowan: except that what they do is known to the programmer, which is typically not true of the compiler's inner workings.
2018-03-18T21:12:53Z vyzo: not necessarily :)
2018-03-18T21:13:20Z jcowan: well, not if they have bugs, no
2018-03-18T21:13:44Z jcowan: but I mean that what happens is under the programmer's control, which is not true for other phases of compiling
2018-03-18T21:14:40Z vyzo: agreed, it's the part of the compiler the programmer directly controls
2018-03-18T21:19:28Z jcowan: also it is present in eval, where eval need not necessarily compile
2018-03-18T21:24:19Z vyzo: eval and macros is a gnarly combination
2018-03-18T21:25:01Z jcowan: why more so than the general evilness of eval?
2018-03-18T21:25:22Z jcowan: (I am talking about proper Scheme eval here)
2018-03-18T21:25:56Z vyzo: i don't think eval is evil in general
2018-03-18T21:26:09Z vyzo: it's just evil if you do eval from within macros :)
2018-03-18T21:26:53Z jcowan: oh yes
2018-03-18T21:27:22Z jcowan: Scheme's eval is fundamentally isolated from the code that runs it, sharing *at most* the global environment
2018-03-18T21:27:26Z jcowan: not like Kernel's
2018-03-18T21:28:21Z jcowan: I once tried to develop an egg that would replace Chicken's eval with Chibi
2018-03-18T21:28:57Z jcowan: it's feasible in principle, but the effort of marshaling between the Chicken and Chibi representations and heaps was just painful
2018-03-18T21:29:18Z jcowan: so I gave up, even though Chibi is much faster than csi
2018-03-18T21:30:25Z jcowan: even in CL where global environment sharing is required, it is still false that (eval "whatever") evaluates to whatever "whatever" evaluates to
2018-03-18T21:32:55Z vyzo: agreed on environment separation
2018-03-18T21:33:03Z vyzo: that's what makes using eval within macros so gnarly :)
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2018-03-18T22:00:36Z ecraven: NLAMBDA for the win :D
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2018-03-19T05:13:15Z mrm: I wonder if any schemes define (if x y z) as (or (and x y) z) internally.
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2018-03-19T05:23:50Z vyzo: that's a little backwards
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2018-03-19T05:27:41Z mrm: Yea. I wonder if it might be an easier form to work with from the perspective of reordering or combining branches though.
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2018-03-19T05:36:12Z mrm: Actually, I'm not sure what algebraic rules short-circuiting and/or obey.
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2018-03-19T05:45:53Z vyzo: if any :)
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2018-03-19T05:51:00Z mrm: Drat, it doesn't work. It's not equal if x is true but y is #f.
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2018-03-19T06:15:23Z ecraven: mrm: that happens in lua all the time ;)
2018-03-19T06:15:26Z ecraven: lua has no expression if, the suggestion is to use: x and y or z
2018-03-19T06:15:29Z ecraven: which works fine, until you hit the problem above
2018-03-19T06:18:02Z mrm: ecraven: Oh neat, so something does do that.
2018-03-19T06:22:58Z n0am: newbie question if i interactively add numbers (+ 10 15 6 7 4 5) it produces the sum but hw do i invoke that in a source code?
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2018-03-19T06:30:27Z wasamasa: I don't see what would be different
2018-03-19T06:30:40Z wasamasa: I mean, other than the repl printing the result
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2018-03-19T14:23:40Z duncanm: la la la
2018-03-19T14:26:06Z ecraven: ;)
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2018-03-19T18:05:25Z Zipheir: Since he's usually here, props to jcowan for making a really good Leibniz reference on #haskell. :-)
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2018-03-19T19:50:04Z jcowan: Zipheir: Thanks
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2018-03-19T19:53:48Z vyzo: so yeah, Gerbil now optimizes match and syntax-case expansion to generate linear mtach trees
2018-03-19T19:53:57Z vyzo: not just compiled macros, _optimized_ macros :)
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2018-03-19T20:21:30Z amz3: wasamasa: tx for pointing me to Sven work, it's awesome :)
2018-03-19T20:22:04Z amz3: wasamasa: I tried to contact him, but I don't find a valid email address, also his company website sempria.de seems down
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2018-03-21T14:46:58Z SpecialBomb: Hello
2018-03-21T14:49:35Z oleo: sup
2018-03-21T14:52:01Z SpecialBomb: oh wow people are here
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2018-03-21T14:52:28Z SpecialBomb: Well, I decided to get into scheme, so might as well look at the irc.
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2018-03-21T15:18:48Z jcowan: SpecialBomb: Welcome to #scheme.
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2018-03-21T15:47:17Z vyzo: jcowan: speaking of macros and eval
2018-03-21T15:47:25Z vyzo: i wrote an insidious little macro today
2018-03-21T15:47:29Z jcowan: ooh
2018-03-21T15:47:56Z vyzo: https://github.com/vyzo/gerbil/blob/master/src/std/os/_socket.scm#L73
2018-03-21T15:48:10Z vyzo: sadly it's the only way to do it
2018-03-21T15:48:27Z vyzo: but hey, it's a legitimate use of eval to side-effect the compiler environment through a macro
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2018-03-21T16:17:22Z gwatt: vyzo: I'm not familiar with gambit/gerbil, but could that macro be defined like: `(cond-expand (,guard (define-cond-expand-feature ,guard)) (else '(begin))) ?
2018-03-21T16:20:49Z vyzo: your branches are inverted
2018-03-21T16:21:00Z vyzo: but there is a problem
2018-03-21T16:21:07Z vyzo: gambit doesn't allow c-define-type inside a begin
2018-03-21T16:21:24Z vyzo: your suggestion was my original attempt to work aroud the problem
2018-03-21T16:21:45Z vyzo: which fell flat in its face, see https://github.com/gambit/gambit/issues/343
2018-03-21T16:21:58Z vyzo: that's when i reached for my revolver :)
2018-03-21T16:22:01Z vyzo: and used eval!
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2018-03-21T17:30:20Z SpecialBomb: lol I had to leave chat, RIP me
2018-03-21T17:30:45Z SpecialBomb: jcowan: thanks
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2018-03-21T17:55:40Z gwatt: vyzo: ah, makes sense. Though I have another question: Is there a reason you need to guard at all? Does registering more than one feature break things?
2018-03-21T17:56:44Z gwatt: rather, registering the same feature more than once
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2018-03-21T18:12:25Z vyzo: yes, there is
2018-03-21T18:12:40Z vyzo: as of v0.13-DEV i started doing full program optimization for static executables
2018-03-21T18:12:50Z vyzo: and the way you do that in gambit is by including all the code together
2018-03-21T18:13:15Z vyzo: the c-define-type names are not namespaced by gsc however
2018-03-21T18:13:25Z vyzo: so there can't be any module-level naming isolation
2018-03-21T18:13:36Z vyzo: and there are basic types like int* that are used by multiple modules in the ffi
2018-03-21T18:13:51Z vyzo: and I don't want to have to call int* foo-int* and bar-int* and so on
2018-03-21T18:13:56Z vyzo: I just call it int* and it's the same type
2018-03-21T18:14:05Z vyzo: hence the cond-expand guard
2018-03-21T18:14:15Z vyzo: which becomes relevant in static exe compilation only
2018-03-21T18:14:50Z jcowan: I don't understand why you say "hence the guard"
2018-03-21T18:15:02Z jcowan: if they are all the same, let them all be the same (non-hygienically)
2018-03-21T18:15:11Z vyzo: duplicate definition!
2018-03-21T18:15:24Z vyzo: I want to use the same name for the same type in different modules
2018-03-21T18:15:37Z vyzo: in separate compilation (and dynamic modules obvs) there is no issue
2018-03-21T18:15:43Z vyzo: in static exe though
2018-03-21T18:16:03Z vyzo: you have (c-define-type int* ...) twice which bombs even though it's the same type
2018-03-21T18:16:16Z vyzo: it's insidios to use cond-expand like this, I admit :)
2018-03-21T18:16:25Z vyzo: it's a glorified #ifndef/#define :)
2018-03-21T18:16:45Z vyzo: note that this issue with identifiers only arises for c-define-type's
2018-03-21T18:17:00Z vyzo: all other definitions are properly namespaced, so there are no conflicts
2018-03-21T18:18:25Z vyzo: gwatt: notice that I don't re-register the feature if it's already defined by another module in the static exe
2018-03-21T18:18:36Z vyzo: that's the first eval part
2018-03-21T18:20:39Z vyzo: also of note, this model of full program optimization is only possible thanks to the tree shaker
2018-03-21T18:20:55Z vyzo: which is a relatively new development in gambit
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2018-03-21T19:10:37Z duncanm: hmm
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2018-03-21T22:25:27Z mrm: Oh jesus christ, r7rs reversed the r6rs square bracket thing?
2018-03-21T22:25:48Z LeoNerd: r6 didn't happen
2018-03-21T22:25:53Z LeoNerd: It's much like the second and third Matrix films
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2018-03-21T22:25:56Z wasamasa: according to github it did
2018-03-21T22:26:13Z wasamasa: https://github.com/textmate/scheme.tmbundle/pull/9
2018-03-21T22:27:22Z jcowan: mrm: Yes.  Doesn't mean an R7RS system cannot support square brackets if it wants to
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2018-03-21T22:29:51Z mrm: So, in other words, square brackets are non-portable.
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2018-03-21T22:30:46Z jcowan: right
2018-03-21T22:31:09Z jcowan: they never have been portable and they aren't now, except between the six or so R6RS systems
2018-03-21T22:33:02Z jcowan: nine, I guess:  Chez, Guile, Larceny, IronScheme, Ikarus/Vicare, Mosh, Ypsilon, Sagittarius, and Racket
2018-03-21T22:33:31Z jcowan: and there are probably random R4/R5/R7 systems that support them too
2018-03-21T22:33:36Z jcowan: so call them semi-portable
2018-03-21T22:34:33Z mrm: Were there any r6rs compliant systems that didn't support it?
2018-03-21T22:34:34Z jcowan: LeoNerd: I wouldn't go that far.  A lot of things from R6 made their way into R7-small, and more will probably make it into R7-large, though not necessarily in a 100% compatibile way
2018-03-21T22:35:38Z LeoNerd: Ohsure... *bits of* R6, a few good ideas, remain. But the R7 spec itself is basically R5 with those bits added
2018-03-21T22:35:45Z LeoNerd: It's not R6 with lots of the junk removed again
2018-03-21T22:37:51Z jcowan: Right
2018-03-21T22:38:07Z jcowan: Which is good, because it saved us from having to decide what counts as junk
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2018-03-21T22:38:40Z LeoNerd: Sure. I'm just saying that's why "R6 didn't exist" :)
2018-03-21T22:38:46Z gwatt: What is s objectionable about R6?
2018-03-21T22:39:21Z LeoNerd: R6 is much like C's C99 standard. So much of it was spec invented by committee, rather than spec that simply formalised what existing implementations were actually already doing
2018-03-21T22:39:55Z LeoNerd: R6RS and C99 both then suffered the problem that a new spec appears decreeing that new implementations shall support lots of things that, actually hang on a minute, nobody's really put a lot of effort into thinking how this is going to work in practice.
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2018-03-21T22:45:00Z mrm: tbh, the only scheme systems I actually respect or care about supported r6rs pretty well, so I don't know how much "working in practice" was a problem.
2018-03-21T22:46:10Z gwatt: yeah, I've only really used chez and guile (some racket)
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2018-03-21T22:52:40Z mrm: r6rs seems like the last version steered by anyone in the scheme academic lineage, as opposed to random angry internet mobs. All the interesting PL people who made scheme worthwhile in the first place seem to have moved on from the community.
2018-03-21T22:53:14Z mrm:  </flame>
2018-03-21T22:55:45Z wasamasa: TIL that foof`, jcowan and alaricsp are "random angry internet mobs"
2018-03-21T22:57:07Z mrm: Presumably those are impressive or important people, but I have no idea who anyone other than jcowan is, and I just know of him as "that guy in #scheme".
2018-03-21T22:57:52Z cmaloney: not sure it does much to start a flamewar inside of a language IRC channel. :)
2018-03-21T22:58:22Z wasamasa: let's just say that these people did far more valuable things than ranting on IRC
2018-03-21T22:58:23Z gwatt: I believe foof` is an implementor of a scheme
2018-03-21T22:58:29Z gwatt: I want to say chicken
2018-03-21T22:58:33Z wasamasa: nah, chibi
2018-03-21T22:58:42Z gwatt: ah, that was my second guess
2018-03-21T22:59:03Z wasamasa: alaricsp hails on #chicken
2018-03-21T23:00:12Z Riastradh: You're kinda amplifying mrm's perspective that it's a random internet mob by citing people they don't recognize from the internet.
2018-03-21T23:00:18Z gwatt: anyway, r6rs does not lack for notable editors. kent dybvig and matt flatt are hardly design-by-committee hacks
2018-03-21T23:01:08Z Riastradh: gwatt: Part of the idea of design-by-committee is that a committee by its nature structurally encourages problematic design even if it is staffed by competent members.
2018-03-21T23:04:08Z mrm: I know it's stupid, but I'm not actually trying to start a flamewar. It just seems like whenever the r6rs/r7rs thing comes up, someone will come out of the woodwork to claim r6rs killed their kitten or something.
2018-03-21T23:05:24Z wasamasa: it killed the 100% consensus
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2018-03-21T23:06:39Z gwatt: Riastradh: That's fair. Maybe I should read the mailing lists to see how the actual design decisions between 6 and 7 differed
2018-03-21T23:10:24Z gwatt: But I think maybe the point I was trying to make is that the editors on R6RS are also implementors and maintainers of notable R6Rs systems, and I think that the assertion made earlier that R6RS was design-by-committee without regards to then-commonalities is erroneous
2018-03-21T23:13:05Z Riastradh: I kinda lost interest around the time of the R6RS, for various reasons, but I also lost interest in arguing about it!  The cultural meme of tribal distinction between R6RS and R7RS is a little tired at this point.
2018-03-21T23:14:01Z gwatt: I can understand that.
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2018-03-21T23:17:06Z Riastradh: Was it an exclusive crew of PL theorists?  Yes, and some of the other big names in the Scheme world at the time, who were not stuck in the PL theory track of academia, were upset about that.  Was there design-by-committee?  Absolutely; half of it had never been implemented before.  But if you're still fighting about it, maybe you'd be happier if you found another hobby.
2018-03-21T23:17:57Z mrm: I'm not 'still' fighting over it. It's kind of weird ancient history to me.
2018-03-21T23:18:18Z Riastradh: That was a general `you', not you in particular.
2018-03-21T23:20:43Z Riastradh: I'm addressing the cultural meme I've noticed over the years, not anyone in particular in this conversation.
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2018-03-21T23:23:01Z mrm: Ok, but I think my perspective here is not entirely unusual, and if it pattern matches to some other meme for you, then that might skew your perspective of its current prevalence.
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2018-03-21T23:28:31Z Riastradh: mrm: What I'm saying is that your impression of seeing someone come out of the woodwork to claim R6RS killed there kitten is about right and has been for some time, if perhaps exaggerated.
2018-03-21T23:28:35Z Riastradh: their
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2018-03-21T23:30:09Z Riastradh: But there were legitimate objections to the R6RS process and outcome; they're just so tired now it's silly to trot them out any more.
2018-03-21T23:34:34Z mrm: I don't doubt that. But the reaction to it also seems to have continuing annoying effects.
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2018-03-21T23:43:13Z jcowan: In any case, you'll note that Will Clinger (whose Scheme creds are impeccable, very much unlike my own) removed his name from the final R6RS standard
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2018-03-21T23:53:10Z mrm: Still no idea who that is.
2018-03-21T23:55:45Z mrm: Oh, the larceny guy. Yea, I read some of his criticisms, and they seemed reasonable.
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2018-03-22T00:02:41Z mrm: Nvm, looks like what I was thinking of is by someone else.
2018-03-22T00:04:03Z mrm: Looks like Clinger removed his name because of some last-minute changes to record-types.
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2018-03-22T00:08:22Z jcowan: No, it was much more complex than that
2018-03-22T00:08:29Z jcowan: particularly the "preposterous MUSTard"
2018-03-22T00:08:48Z gwatt: what is the "preposterous MUSTard" ?
2018-03-22T00:08:52Z mrm: http://www.r6rs.org/ratification/results.html#X101
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2018-03-22T00:09:54Z jcowan: R6RS has a whole lot of MUST in it
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2018-03-22T00:11:27Z jcowan: which is one of the thjings that made it hard for R5RS systems to adopt
2018-03-22T00:12:24Z Riastradh: jcowan: Well.  Just name-dropping Will Clinger doesn't contradict mrm's perception that `all the interesting PL people who made Scheme worthwhile in the first place seem to have moved on' [since the R6RS process].
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2018-03-22T00:13:14Z jcowan: I had no intention of contradicting him, so that's fine
2018-03-22T00:13:33Z jcowan: "I don't argue, I just tell you what I think or what I know, accordingly."  --me
2018-03-22T00:17:40Z mrm: Anyways, I don't mean to question 'credentials'. But there's a certain big but kind of insular academic family of people who up through r6rs seemed synonymous with scheme and its evolution. And for whatever reason, that family seems like it has just moved on from the rnrs process.
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2018-03-22T07:27:56Z zalt: how would you have like an array of probabilities that change with each iteration in a purely functional yet performant way, if that's possible?
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2018-03-22T07:30:25Z vyzo: you'd have to copy, you are asking for something that's fundamentally not possible
2018-03-22T07:30:35Z vyzo: except perhaps if you unrolled the array into separate variables
2018-03-22T07:30:42Z vyzo: which makes no sense for large arrays
2018-03-22T07:31:23Z zalt: hmm, so mutation is the better way in such a scenario?
2018-03-22T07:31:47Z vyzo: yeah, if you don't need the old array again
2018-03-22T07:31:57Z vyzo: if you do, copy is what you have to do
2018-03-22T07:32:27Z zalt: yes i don't need it, i wonder how are such problems solved in "purely functional" languages like haskell :D
2018-03-22T07:32:44Z vyzo: they probably have a monad :)
2018-03-22T07:34:53Z zalt: vyzo: is there really a limitation in doing it using parameters?
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2018-03-22T07:35:16Z vyzo: it depends on how big the array is
2018-03-22T07:35:21Z zalt: i mean when you suggested that it made sense, with recursion the interpreter would figure that whatever was on the stack is no longer needed
2018-03-22T07:35:30Z vyzo: sure
2018-03-22T07:35:37Z vyzo: but you'd have to write the array as separate variables
2018-03-22T07:35:46Z vyzo: or have some very complicated macro that does it for you
2018-03-22T07:35:54Z ecraven: did anyone write a macro or* that takes the predicate to check for, not just assuming identity?
2018-03-22T07:36:01Z zalt: i could use (define (function . rest) ) no?
2018-03-22T07:36:04Z ecraven: I need an or that works on null?
2018-03-22T07:36:15Z vyzo: zalt: you are effectively allocating again
2018-03-22T07:36:15Z ecraven: I can write that, just wondering whether anyone else ever needed this
2018-03-22T07:36:24Z vyzo: . notation results in a list capture of the arguments
2018-03-22T07:36:36Z zalt: i see.
2018-03-22T07:37:35Z vyzo: ecraven: example usage of or*?
2018-03-22T07:37:52Z vyzo: i am a collector of macros :)
2018-03-22T07:39:09Z ecraven: (or* null? (list) (list 1 2 3))
2018-03-22T07:39:29Z vyzo: that's not quite or, it's a variant of if
2018-03-22T07:39:50Z vyzo: or do you want to apply it on the arguments?
2018-03-22T07:39:55Z vyzo: and take the result from that?
2018-03-22T07:40:01Z vyzo: there is ormap that does this for you
2018-03-22T07:40:05Z vyzo: without needing a macro
2018-03-22T07:40:18Z vyzo: although
2018-03-22T07:40:24Z vyzo: ormap will have to evaluate its arguments
2018-03-22T07:40:42Z vyzo: so you want (or* null? lst1 lst2) to be (or (null? lst1) (null? lst2))
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2018-03-22T07:41:05Z vyzo: so that you do short-circuited ormap that doesn't evaluate the tails unless needed?
2018-03-22T07:41:48Z ecraven: I want it to return the first argument that is not null?
2018-03-22T07:41:52Z ecraven: lazily evaluating them
2018-03-22T07:42:01Z ecraven: yes
2018-03-22T07:42:06Z ecraven: what you said right above me ;)
2018-03-22T07:43:10Z vyzo: that would be a useful little macro indeed
2018-03-22T07:44:54Z ecraven: the * is just what I thought of, based on let* and friends
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2018-03-22T07:46:38Z vyzo: the expansion would look like (let (arg1 lst1) (if (null? arg1) arg1 (let (arg2 lst2) (if (null? arg2) arg2 #f))))
2018-03-22T07:46:44Z vyzo: note i am using gerbil let notation
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2018-03-22T07:46:52Z vyzo: the shorthand for single argument let
2018-03-22T07:47:10Z vyzo: ellides one set of parens
2018-03-22T07:47:34Z ecraven: yea, that's ok
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2018-03-22T07:50:10Z vyzo: should be simple to write even with syntax-rules
2018-03-22T07:50:14Z vyzo: couple of rule branches
2018-03-22T07:50:20Z vyzo: (or* pred) => #f
2018-03-22T07:50:41Z ecraven: yes, just on the phone, then I'll write it
2018-03-22T07:50:45Z ecraven: and maybe even and* ;D
2018-03-22T07:50:49Z vyzo: (or* pred expr rest ...) => (let ($arg expr) (if $arg $arg (or* pred rest ...))
2018-03-22T07:52:16Z vyzo: missed a tail paren or two above :)
2018-03-22T07:57:45Z ecraven: hm.. should it consider both #f *and* a failed predicate as falsey?
2018-03-22T07:59:00Z ecraven: also, should it take the predicate for falseness or truth? should it be (or* null? ...) or (or* (lambda (x) (not (null? x))) ...)
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2018-03-22T08:01:39Z vyzo: a failed predicate should be falsey
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2018-03-22T08:01:58Z vyzo: and you can have a front-end that captures the lambda and dispatches
2018-03-22T08:02:03Z ecraven: yes, but should it be (or* null? '() '() '(1 2 3)) or (or* (complement null?) '() '() '(1 2 3))  to get '(1 2 3)?
2018-03-22T08:02:20Z ecraven: I mean, should the predicate test for truthiness or falseness?
2018-03-22T08:02:35Z vyzo: it should check for truth i think
2018-03-22T08:02:50Z vyzo: so the first variant to get '(1 2 3)
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2018-03-22T08:02:59Z ecraven: that would mean the second variant
2018-03-22T08:03:00Z ecraven: null
2018-03-22T08:03:22Z ecraven: (though I define complement as `non' myself, way shorter) ;) (non null?)
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2018-03-22T08:04:34Z ecraven: http://ix.io/10S9 I like these ;) thanks!
2018-03-22T08:05:15Z vyzo: pretty cool little macros
2018-03-22T08:05:26Z vyzo: i'll keep them in my personal archive :)
2018-03-22T08:05:55Z vyzo: btw, gerbil has the ? little predicate constructor macro
2018-03-22T08:06:15Z vyzo: so (non x) is just (? not x)
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2018-03-22T08:06:49Z ecraven: can you chain things? (? not null x)
2018-03-22T08:07:10Z vyzo: yes
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2018-03-22T08:07:50Z vyzo: it's a little more nuanced though
2018-03-22T08:07:55Z vyzo: you'd have to and to chain them
2018-03-22T08:08:26Z vyzo: https://github.com/vyzo/gerbil/blob/master/src/gerbil/prelude/core.ss#L2805
2018-03-22T08:08:29Z vyzo: that's the definition
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2018-03-22T08:08:54Z ecraven: hm.. the reference implementation of srfi-2 is not syntax-rules :-/
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2018-03-22T08:09:14Z ecraven: nice!
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2018-03-22T08:11:37Z vyzo: that's and-let*: https://github.com/vyzo/gerbil/blob/master/src/gerbil/prelude/core.ss#L1377
2018-03-22T08:11:43Z vyzo: with and-let defined a little above
2018-03-22T08:12:09Z vyzo: note that I call them alet and alet* and have an aliase for and-let* to alet*
2018-03-22T08:12:12Z vyzo: but it's syntax-rules :)
2018-03-22T08:12:35Z vyzo: oh wait, my alet is not syntax rules either
2018-03-22T08:12:38Z vyzo: boooh
2018-03-22T08:12:40Z ecraven: neither is chez's
2018-03-22T08:12:52Z vyzo: mainly because it needs to check for single arm head
2018-03-22T08:12:59Z ecraven: maybe it can't be done easily in syntax-rules, matching the difference in forms isn't obvious to me
2018-03-22T08:13:44Z vyzo: yeah, i didn't do syntax-rules because of the let-head and the values handling
2018-03-22T08:14:03Z vyzo: small nuances that make it very uncomfortable to do in syntax-rules
2018-03-22T08:14:15Z vyzo: but you probably don't care about either of these features
2018-03-22T08:14:28Z ecraven: no, most schemes ship it anyway
2018-03-22T08:17:15Z vyzo: it's a handy little macro
2018-03-22T08:18:00Z ecraven: I've never seen it used in code I looked at though
2018-03-22T08:20:02Z vyzo: I use single arm alet quite a bit
2018-03-22T08:20:31Z vyzo: (it's shortcut for (cond ((foo ...) => (lambda (x) ...)) (else #f))
2018-03-22T08:21:01Z vyzo: which is a common pattern
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2018-03-22T09:19:03Z faLUCE: Hello. how can I check if myList has only the element "foo" ?
2018-03-22T09:19:10Z faLUCE: (no other elements)
2018-03-22T09:19:41Z ecraven: either check for length and content, or compare to what you want
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2018-03-22T09:22:00Z faLUCE: ok
2018-03-22T09:22:18Z vyzo: (equal? x '("foo"))
2018-03-22T09:22:26Z vyzo: that's the simplest way to do what you want
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2018-03-22T10:25:28Z zalt: i wonder what would you use symbols for?
2018-03-22T10:25:42Z ecraven: everything you want ;)
2018-03-22T10:25:51Z zalt: would it be a good idea to use them like value in an enum?
2018-03-22T10:26:36Z ecraven: for example, yes
2018-03-22T10:26:37Z zalt: i mean for example suppose i have a function that "moves either forwards or backwards" i imagine i can use something like (if (eq? direction 'forward)  no?
2018-03-22T10:26:46Z ecraven: that's indeed one typical usage
2018-03-22T10:27:25Z vyzo: and you can use them in case expressions to do dispatch
2018-03-22T10:27:47Z ecraven: (case ((forward) (vector 0 1)) ((left) (vector 1 0)) ...)
2018-03-22T10:28:23Z vyzo: (case direction ...)
2018-03-22T10:28:26Z vyzo: missing arg :)
2018-03-22T10:28:42Z ecraven: ah, thanks, sorry ;)
2018-03-22T10:28:59Z ecraven: vyzo: do you know `select'? dylan had that, an evaluating version of case
2018-03-22T10:29:01Z ecraven: I like it a lot ;)
2018-03-22T10:30:30Z ecraven: (select item comparator ((form ..) body ...) ...)
2018-03-22T10:33:07Z vyzo: i used case* for a while
2018-03-22T10:33:16Z vyzo: that quasiquoted in the case selectors
2018-03-22T10:33:19Z vyzo: which allowed evaluation
2018-03-22T10:33:46Z ecraven: nice, never saw that, a good idea
2018-03-22T10:33:55Z vyzo: i don't have it in the prelude any more
2018-03-22T10:33:58Z vyzo: but I could add it
2018-03-22T10:34:13Z vyzo: the issue with case* is that case does some crazy optimizing expansion now
2018-03-22T10:34:27Z vyzo: chars and numbers get vector table lookups and then bsearch
2018-03-22T10:34:28Z ecraven: no need yet, I'm just collecting useful functions, let's see whether I actually use them
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2018-03-22T10:34:56Z zalt: have you encountered a need for self-modifying code for uses other than artificial intelligence? :D
2018-03-22T10:34:59Z vyzo: and if it's more than >=12 things in general it will do hashed dispatch
2018-03-22T10:35:12Z vyzo: (why the 12? I counted the primops :)
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2018-03-22T10:36:47Z zalt: i think the first skynet is going to be written in a language like lisp
2018-03-22T10:38:14Z zalt: although with machine learning it seems that traditional ai no longer fits any purpose
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2018-03-22T12:07:51Z zalt: is it called a closure if it's created by another function that takes it as a parameter then returns a new version of it :D
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2018-03-22T12:29:18Z gwatt: zalt: maybe? I'm having a hard time reading your question.
2018-03-22T12:31:57Z gwatt: A closure is a function that references variables not passed into the parameter list or created internally.
2018-03-22T12:33:13Z zalt: yes, but i meant what if we pass the creating function a previous version of a created closure
2018-03-22T12:33:28Z zalt: i know it's probably useless
2018-03-22T12:33:53Z zalt: i'll link an example of what i'm using it for
2018-03-22T12:34:32Z zalt: well, nvm, when i thought about it, doing that in my case is redundant
2018-03-22T12:36:15Z zalt: plus it has to be kickstarted :D
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2018-03-22T13:17:47Z gwatt: What I think you're describing can work, but the closure creating function does not itself need to be a closure
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2018-03-22T13:23:51Z zalt: yes, i meant having it as just a regular function
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2018-03-22T13:25:35Z zalt: what's the absolute maximum number line a function should not exceed? :|
2018-03-22T13:27:00Z zalt: i've created a huge 70 lines monolithic function that has absolutely the worst kind of shared state possible in a functional language :D
2018-03-22T13:27:15Z vyzo: there is no maximum
2018-03-22T13:27:21Z vyzo: and functions often contain other functions
2018-03-22T13:27:40Z vyzo: it's not that unusual to have a 1kloc function that contains lots of other functions
2018-03-22T13:27:51Z zalt: in my case it contains 8 functions
2018-03-22T13:28:02Z zalt: REALLY? 1000 lines??
2018-03-22T13:29:08Z vyzo: sure, it could be more easily
2018-03-22T13:29:11Z zalt: what the hell, in 70 lines i was able to simulate the monopoly game, i wonder what takes 1000 lines of scheme, the source code of the matrix?
2018-03-22T13:29:26Z vyzo: some hairy macro or an actor implementation
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2018-03-22T13:32:37Z zalt: is it true that doing things purely functionally will make your code automatically support parallelism? :O
2018-03-22T13:33:30Z vyzo: not if you have an inherently serial algorithm
2018-03-22T13:33:36Z zalt: i can't see what advantage functional languages do have over imperative ones in that regard?
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2018-03-22T13:35:47Z zalt: is it just not having to worry about mutexes and stuff if the problem can be solved without mutation?
2018-03-22T13:36:01Z vyzo: that would be overly simplifying
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2018-03-22T14:14:05Z jcowan: vyzo, zalt: actually you can get performant persistent arrays by keeping a trail of the changes you have made
2018-03-22T14:14:58Z zalt: what do you mean?
2018-03-22T14:15:21Z zalt: you mean by only saving in memory what has changed?
2018-03-22T14:16:01Z jcowan: yes; you start with an original mutable array, log the changes, and return a pointer to the current state of the log plus the array
2018-03-22T14:16:21Z jcowan: when you access the array through a pointer that is not the current end of the log, you replay the log backwards
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2018-03-22T14:16:37Z jcowan: and then until you reference the array through some other log pointer, you are golden
2018-03-22T14:16:46Z jcowan: Henry Baker has a paper about it
2018-03-22T14:17:18Z zalt: but in my case everything will be changed, with each element being slightly modified possibly thousands of times
2018-03-22T14:17:45Z zalt: i think the best way to do it in my case is copy the array, do whatever i want with it inside the function (by mutating it) then return the final version of it
2018-03-22T14:18:37Z jcowan: fair enough
2018-03-22T14:18:44Z jcowan: Scheme is not a B & D language
2018-03-22T14:20:23Z jcowan: http://home.pipeline.com/~hbaker1/BuriedStale.html talks about the idea in terms of environments, but it is perfectly applicable to general arrays
2018-03-22T14:21:52Z zalt: i think the idea is interesting
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2018-03-22T14:23:21Z zalt: i've done something similiar in c, i made a huge heap-allocated undo stack in an implementation of a backtracking algorithm (because the stack won't handle millions of frames)
2018-03-22T14:24:21Z zalt: and the whole thing ran in a while ( true ) loop :D
2018-03-22T14:26:00Z zalt: s/millions/tens of thousands/ to be realistic
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2018-03-22T17:17:31Z zalt: how do you merge two lists as (a,b) tuples, given they have exactly the same length?
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2018-03-22T17:19:07Z gwatt: zalt: (map list a b)
2018-03-22T17:19:16Z gwatt: or cons if you prefer
2018-03-22T17:19:51Z zalt: hmm, i had no idea map took multiple lists
2018-03-22T17:20:03Z gwatt: as many as you like
2018-03-22T17:20:26Z zalt: so (list gets called with like (list (car a) (car b)) ... for all elements?
2018-03-22T17:20:34Z gwatt: yes
2018-03-22T17:20:40Z zalt: ty
2018-03-22T17:20:48Z gwatt: rudybot: (map list '(1 2 3) '(a b c))
2018-03-22T17:20:52Z rudybot: gwatt: your sandbox is ready
2018-03-22T17:20:52Z rudybot: gwatt: ; Value: '((1 a) (2 b) (3 c))
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2018-03-22T17:57:17Z gwatt: zalt: the folds and for-each also take an arbitrary number of lists
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2018-03-22T18:06:01Z duncanm: ecraven: i think dylan had a lot of nice utilities, like `select`
2018-03-22T18:34:25Z ecraven: duncanm: indeed, we should start a small library
2018-03-22T18:34:30Z ecraven: I've implemented select somewhere, just need to find it
2018-03-22T18:36:10Z ecraven: then I'll start an srfi: "scheme stuff that ecraven find's useful" :P
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2018-03-22T19:43:23Z Zipheir: zalt: Isn't that exactly the purpose of zip? If you've got access to SRFI-1 functions, that is.
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2018-03-22T20:43:18Z duncanm: this is quite intense - http://lambda-the-ultimate.org/node/5517
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2018-03-22T21:33:20Z mejja: syntax rules was a mistake
2018-03-22T21:35:00Z gwatt: what do you not like about syntax-rules?
2018-03-22T21:39:04Z mejja: explicit renaming would have been the obvious choice back then
2018-03-22T21:42:46Z gwatt: I mostly use rules and case, but as I understand it explicit renaming is unhygienic by default
2018-03-22T21:42:50Z gwatt: Is that true?
2018-03-22T21:47:37Z mejja: I value in order: mental hygiene, personal hygiene, macro hygiene..
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2018-03-22T21:56:51Z gwatt: does macro hygiene conflict with the first two?
2018-03-22T21:58:33Z vyzo: so yeah, that paper is insidious
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2018-03-22T23:32:45Z duncanm: haha
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2018-03-22T23:34:28Z duncanm: I wonder if ER-macros and a nice match macro might have worked out
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2018-03-22T23:40:50Z elly: I just read that paper and I hate it
2018-03-22T23:41:39Z elly: I am boggled that LtU has it tagged as "fun" :P
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2018-03-23T00:33:38Z gwatt: elly: It's putting the FUUUUUUUUUUUUUU in fun
2018-03-23T01:00:52Z Riastradh: Heh.
2018-03-23T01:01:03Z Riastradh: That's an old one...
2018-03-23T01:02:04Z Riastradh: It doesn't actually work very well.
2018-03-23T01:02:32Z Riastradh: Here's an example where it falls down.
2018-03-23T01:03:05Z Riastradh: Given an (if-it t c a) macro that behaves like (let ((tmp t)) (if tmp (let ((it tmp)) c) a)),
2018-03-23T01:03:11Z Riastradh: the following should be a valid definition of or:
2018-03-23T01:03:55Z Riastradh: Hold on, that's not quite right, I made it too clever.
2018-03-23T01:04:14Z Riastradh: Given an (if-it t c a) macro that behaves like (let ((it t)) (if it c a)), the following should be a valid definition of or:
2018-03-23T01:04:40Z Riastradh: (define-syntax or (syntax-rules () ((or) #t) ((or a) a) ((or a b c ...) (if-it a it (or b c ...)))))
2018-03-23T01:04:53Z Riastradh: But if you define if-it the way Oleg describes, that won't work.
2018-03-23T01:05:40Z Riastradh drags out memories of an afternoon-long argument over a decade ago with eli and chandler in this very channel about defining `hygiene' for name-introducing macros
2018-03-23T01:06:33Z Riastradh: elly: If you found Oleg's paper fuuuuuuuuuuu, you might like this syntax-rules extravaganza too: https://mumble.net/~campbell/scheme/foof-loop.scm
2018-03-23T01:07:10Z Riastradh: Don't worry; it's not as bad as AvT's little functional programming language library built out of syntax-rules proposed as a SRFI a while back.
2018-03-23T01:07:30Z elly: which one was that?
2018-03-23T01:07:34Z Riastradh: I forget the number.
2018-03-23T01:07:39Z Riastradh: Somewhere in the 40s or 50s.
2018-03-23T01:08:09Z Riastradh: syntax-name? and syntax-ellipsis? in foof-loop.scm are particularly cute.  I don't remember now whether to credit Oleg or AvT for them (though I think I tweaked them to work better) because I had a bad habit of not recording citations at the time.
2018-03-23T01:08:17Z Riastradh: er
2018-03-23T01:08:20Z Riastradh: syntactic-name? and syntactic-ellipsis?
2018-03-23T01:08:20Z elly: oh hum this is an interesting use of uppercase
2018-03-23T01:09:48Z elly: https://srfi.schemers.org/srfi-53/srfi-53.html looks like it
2018-03-23T01:10:11Z Riastradh: Yes, that's it.
2018-03-23T01:11:35Z Riastradh: Actually maybe foof-loop is crazier than AvT's thing after all, on reflection.
2018-03-23T01:12:30Z Riastradh: I dunno, I never did do well at comp lit in college -- comparing literature to see which is better, of course.
2018-03-23T01:12:34Z Riastradh: (or crazier, as the case may be)
2018-03-23T01:13:37Z elly: heh, (MAGICAL MYSTERY LIST) :)
2018-03-23T01:13:41Z Riastradh: Yep!
2018-03-23T01:13:54Z Riastradh: It doesn't work if it's not a list.
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2018-03-23T01:14:37Z Riastradh: It also doesn't work right if it's a two-element list.
2018-03-23T01:15:45Z elly: I'm not sure I want to figure out why that is just now
2018-03-23T01:17:29Z Riastradh: Well, if datum isn't ellipsis, then the pattern (variable datum) matches a two-element list!
2018-03-23T01:17:41Z Riastradh: If datum _is_ ellipsis, then (variable ...) matches a list but nothing other than a list.
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2018-03-23T01:41:16Z jcowan: The list, the whole list, and nothing but the list
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2018-03-23T01:54:44Z pierpa_: looks like the beginning of a new religion
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2018-03-23T03:35:33Z duncanm: fun fun fun
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2018-03-23T03:39:00Z jcowan: pierpa: 3rd normal form databases have the data depending on the key, the whole key, and nothing but the key
2018-03-23T03:39:17Z jcowan: and a well-designed OO class has only methods that depend on the state, the whole state, and nothing but the state.
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2018-03-23T03:42:38Z pierpa: jcowan: we have enough material for several religion wars
2018-03-23T03:44:22Z jcowan: why religion?
2018-03-23T03:44:40Z jcowan: my associations are legal: tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth
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2018-03-23T03:51:41Z pierpa: makes sense
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2018-03-23T06:26:06Z vyzo: god, the things people do with syntax-rules :)
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2018-03-23T08:33:35Z Guest69077: what is the best implementation
2018-03-23T08:33:45Z vyzo: there is no best implementation
2018-03-23T08:33:49Z vyzo: it depends on your needs
2018-03-23T08:33:58Z Guest69077: r7rs
2018-03-23T08:34:33Z damke quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2018-03-23T08:35:04Z Guest69077: debugged
2018-03-23T08:37:01Z vyzo: what are you trying to build?
2018-03-23T08:37:06Z ecraven: https://ecraven.github.com/r7rs-coverage is an attempt at starting to map r7rs coverage
2018-03-23T08:38:41Z Guest69077: vyzo: just learning
2018-03-23T08:39:04Z Guest69077: ecraven: owl lisp is missing
2018-03-23T08:40:13Z Guest69077: so chibi is the best for r7rs
2018-03-23T08:40:25Z vyzo: has the best coverage currently
2018-03-23T08:40:25Z Guest69077: what is the most popular implementation
2018-03-23T08:40:39Z vyzo: which is not surprising since it started as a bona-fide r7rs implementation
2018-03-23T08:41:10Z vyzo: ecraven: what's with the bytevector-* procs failing on gerbil
2018-03-23T08:41:17Z vyzo: i am pretty sure these are covered
2018-03-23T08:41:29Z vyzo: although it's still an old version in the coverage
2018-03-23T08:42:08Z vyzo: oh wait, it's in guile
2018-03-23T08:42:09Z vyzo: nm
2018-03-23T08:42:27Z vyzo: oh yeah, close-*-port seem to be failing the tests
2018-03-23T08:42:30Z vyzo: these work :)
2018-03-23T08:42:42Z vyzo: but if you are testing with input-port-closed? then it won't work
2018-03-23T08:42:49Z vyzo: because the latter has no easy way to implement
2018-03-23T08:43:40Z ecraven: yea, it's not perfect by far
2018-03-23T08:43:51Z ecraven: I haven't had time to work on it much
2018-03-23T08:44:47Z Guest69077: owl lisp is formally verified
2018-03-23T08:45:09Z ecraven: it's also quite different than other Schemes
2018-03-23T08:45:27Z Guest69077: it would be nice if there was a comparison
2018-03-23T08:45:42Z Guest69077: diff
2018-03-23T08:45:48Z ecraven: planning to make one any day now :D
2018-03-23T08:47:29Z Guest69077: how long have you been planning for
2018-03-23T08:48:34Z ecraven: a few months at least
2018-03-23T08:54:40Z Guest69077: someone might beat you to it
2018-03-23T08:54:50Z ecraven: feel free to ;)
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2018-03-23T08:57:59Z Guest69077: is there any reason to not use r7rs
2018-03-23T08:58:13Z Guest69077: besides legacy
2018-03-23T08:58:24Z wasamasa: r7rs is still very new
2018-03-23T08:58:32Z ecraven: not everything implements r7rs
2018-03-23T08:58:40Z ecraven: very few schemes implements it fully
2018-03-23T08:58:49Z wasamasa: the majority of scheme implementations out there settled for r5rs or r6rs
2018-03-23T08:58:53Z ecraven: and r7rs-small alone is not enough to write most programs
2018-03-23T08:58:59Z Guest69077: it is half a decade old though
2018-03-23T08:59:00Z ecraven: but things are slowly improving ;)
2018-03-23T08:59:30Z wasamasa: Guest69077: chibi is the best when it comes to r7rs coverage indeed, you might want to read my slides on doing a non-trivial project in portable r7rs scheme: https://github.com/wasamasa/chicken-in-the-forest
2018-03-23T09:04:03Z Guest69077: so we need to roll our own
2018-03-23T09:08:23Z vyzo: wasamasa: that's an interesting write up
2018-03-23T09:08:37Z vyzo: gerbil r7rs support has improved since october :)
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2018-03-23T09:09:52Z Franciman: Hello
2018-03-23T09:11:14Z wasamasa: vyzo: thanks, it's why I keep looking for more scheme implementations to add
2018-03-23T09:12:11Z Franciman: do you know of any scheme implementation quite usable for working with named pipes and temporary directories?
2018-03-23T09:12:27Z Franciman: I was trying guile, but it doesn't seem to have a command to create a tmp directory
2018-03-23T09:12:28Z wasamasa: CHICKEN obviously
2018-03-23T09:13:01Z wasamasa: huh, I've heard guile has good POSIX support as well
2018-03-23T09:13:24Z wasamasa: you could shell out
2018-03-23T09:13:41Z Franciman: oh I see
2018-03-23T09:13:47Z Franciman: thank you
2018-03-23T09:14:26Z ecraven: https://www.gnu.org/software/guile/manual/html_node/File-System.html mentions quite a few procedures related to temporary files and directories
2018-03-23T09:14:55Z wasamasa: look into mktemp or what it's named, the manual refers both to the library calls and the corresponding commands
2018-03-23T09:16:02Z Franciman: only temporary files
2018-03-23T09:16:17Z Guest69077: ecraven: https://bitbucket.org/cowan/r7rs-wg1-infra/src/eefb949ea35f2177b0b6963fb27910970b0f024e/ImplementationSupport.md
2018-03-23T09:16:17Z rudybot: http://teensy.info/99bgliG04q
2018-03-23T09:17:40Z ecraven: Guest69077: yes
2018-03-23T09:18:11Z ecraven: however, I use r7rs as a mostly-r7rs scheme, it just needs a bit of function renaming and some simple wrappers mostly
2018-03-23T09:18:20Z ecraven: I use chez ...
2018-03-23T09:18:43Z wasamasa: but what about modules?
2018-03-23T09:18:47Z ecraven: in fact, *any* r5rs Scheme should support a large part of r7rs already anyway
2018-03-23T09:18:57Z ecraven: wasamasa: it is r6rs, they are very similar to r7rs modules
2018-03-23T09:19:21Z ecraven: not sure whether it would be possible to write a macro that expands define-library into library?
2018-03-23T09:20:00Z wasamasa: I remember a paper about implementing R7RS on top of R6RS
2018-03-23T09:20:02Z ecraven: once I actually understand how things work, I might try to add proper r7rs support to it
2018-03-23T09:20:15Z ecraven: doesn't rapid do that?
2018-03-23T09:20:44Z wasamasa: it builds upon R5RS
2018-03-23T09:20:58Z ecraven: ah, sorry, misremembered
2018-03-23T09:21:44Z Guest69077: does r5rs make all predecessors obsolete
2018-03-23T09:21:46Z wasamasa: might work though
2018-03-23T09:23:40Z vyzo: wasamasa: what's the status of your MAL?
2018-03-23T09:23:45Z vyzo: i can help you port to gerbil
2018-03-23T09:23:57Z vyzo: it should be straightforward, r7rs support is almost complete
2018-03-23T09:24:18Z Guest69077: is r7rs large an attempt to replace common lisp
2018-03-23T09:24:34Z ecraven: not replace, but I think it aims for a similar scope
2018-03-23T09:24:58Z vyzo: the only things missing are listed here: https://github.com/vyzo/gerbil/blob/master/doc/r7rs.md#implementation-restrictions
2018-03-23T09:25:56Z ecraven: hehe, I like it that you don't implement #true and #false
2018-03-23T09:26:06Z ecraven: I still haven't understood why they were added in the first place
2018-03-23T09:27:00Z vyzo: yeah, they are totally unnecessary
2018-03-23T09:27:05Z vyzo: just a longer way to write #t and #f
2018-03-23T09:27:10Z vyzo: i refurse to implement bloat :)
2018-03-23T09:27:24Z Guest69077: without clos it would have overruled objections
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2018-03-23T09:37:45Z wasamasa: vyzo: MAL isn't mine, it's just one of the many projects I contribute code to
2018-03-23T09:37:55Z wasamasa: vyzo: currently I'm at 7xR7RS
2018-03-23T09:38:16Z wasamasa: vyzo: see https://github.com/kanaka/mal/tree/master/scheme for the code
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2018-03-23T09:42:21Z wasamasa: vyzo: unlike the r7rs benchmarks, r7rs module support is mandatory here
2018-03-23T09:44:47Z ecraven: hm.. given that you cannot import anything before the define-library form, you are probably right that it needs native support
2018-03-23T09:45:11Z vyzo: oh you can!
2018-03-23T09:45:13Z vyzo: there is no problem
2018-03-23T09:45:15Z ecraven: I'll need to look into the differences between r6rs library and r7rs define-library, and whether it might now work to just preprocess define-library a bit and hand it off to library
2018-03-23T09:45:22Z vyzo: it just needs to have a single define-library per module file
2018-03-23T09:45:35Z vyzo: the only issues i see
2018-03-23T09:45:41Z ecraven: vyzo: I mean, you don't *have* to, so most libraries won't (import (scheme base)) (define-library ...), I think?
2018-03-23T09:45:44Z vyzo: 1) the use of .sld for scheme source extension
2018-03-23T09:46:12Z vyzo: 2) the call of (main) in the programs -- this is already done by the compiler when compiling programs
2018-03-23T09:46:29Z vyzo: ecraven: in fact you can ellide the define-library form altogether :)
2018-03-23T09:47:18Z ecraven: I'm thinking not about the benchmarks, but about how to make chez r7rs ;)
2018-03-23T09:47:26Z vyzo: oh
2018-03-23T09:47:28Z ecraven: I can define all the libraries, that works fine
2018-03-23T09:47:36Z ecraven: but define-library probably needs a bit of actual chez support
2018-03-23T09:47:44Z vyzo: you should be able ot expand it to just a library form
2018-03-23T09:47:58Z vyzo: you might need a small prelude to import some stuff though
2018-03-23T09:48:10Z vyzo: wasamasa: i can make a pr for mal to make it work on gerbil
2018-03-23T09:48:15Z vyzo: it should be straightforward
2018-03-23T09:48:40Z vyzo: the only difficulty is the use of .sld for extension, but I could perhaps add some support to the tooling for understanding it
2018-03-23T09:48:47Z vyzo: since it's very common for r7rs code
2018-03-23T09:49:49Z vyzo: although I will probably hack together a build script instead of piling to the makefile
2018-03-23T09:49:56Z vyzo: i abhor makefiles :)
2018-03-23T09:53:50Z vyzo: wasamasa: what's 7xR7RS btw?
2018-03-23T09:54:23Z ecraven: 7 implementations, I'd assume
2018-03-23T09:55:57Z vyzo: ok, looking at it more closely
2018-03-23T09:56:05Z vyzo: the .sld is not a problem at all
2018-03-23T09:59:08Z vyzo: and i guess i should add the the mess that is hte makefile instead of making a gerbil specific build script
2018-03-23T09:59:37Z ecraven: write a script, call that from the makefile :P
2018-03-23T10:00:10Z vyzo: heh
2018-03-23T10:00:13Z vyzo: good idea :)
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2018-03-23T10:01:40Z vyzo: i'll make it a simple shell script
2018-03-23T10:02:08Z vyzo: so that the maintainer can incorporate it in the makefile
2018-03-23T10:02:17Z vyzo: i don't want to touch that thing :)
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2018-03-23T10:41:05Z vyzo: ok, it's ready
2018-03-23T10:41:08Z vyzo: works like a charm
2018-03-23T10:41:34Z vyzo: no static exes though, the programs use eval which requires the expander
2018-03-23T10:41:39Z vyzo: still, dynamic exes are fine
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2018-03-23T10:51:24Z vyzo: wasamasa: https://github.com/kanaka/mal/pull/314
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2018-03-23T12:13:00Z vyzo: oh wow, just realized that my implementation of read-string doesn't conform to the spec
2018-03-23T12:13:02Z vyzo: fixing :)
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2018-03-23T13:16:00Z jcowan: ecraven: check out Rapid as a front end to Chez; it is already working as a front end to Gambit
2018-03-23T13:17:06Z jcowan: Also, #true and #false were foof's idea, because he thinks #t and #f look too similar
2018-03-23T13:17:32Z ecraven: jcowan: just for fun I've tried just importing (chezscheme) and exporting the relevant identifiers, works fine. just a bit of mapping from r6rs to r7rs needed
2018-03-23T13:18:04Z jcowan: That's basically what Larceny and Sagittarius do
2018-03-23T13:18:19Z jcowan: Clinger's paper is very much worth reading
2018-03-23T13:19:13Z jcowan: http://andykeep.com/SchemeWorkshop2015/papers/sfpw1-2015-clinger.pdf
2018-03-23T13:19:25Z jcowan: "R7RS Considered Unifier of Previous Standards"
2018-03-23T13:19:52Z ecraven: thanks, never knew about that
2018-03-23T13:20:09Z ecraven: I'm hoping that Dybvig might be persuaded to ship a sort of compatibility layer by default with chez
2018-03-23T13:20:18Z ecraven: if it is all provided and no work for them :-)
2018-03-23T13:21:19Z ecraven: thanks for that link!
2018-03-23T13:22:32Z jcowan: https://github.com/uhmanoa-transpiler-project/shaka-scheme looks interesting (R7RS interpreter written in C++11)
2018-03-23T13:23:09Z jcowan: IIRC nobody objected very much to #true and #false, so we let foof have them
2018-03-23T13:24:48Z gwatt: ecraven: I think such a compatibility layer for chez would need to dig around in the reader
2018-03-23T13:24:50Z jcowan: I could have gone for #!true and #!false, which is what Scheme used in R2RS
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2018-03-23T13:26:12Z ecraven: gwatt: what are the reader incompatibilities between r6rs and r7rs?
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2018-03-23T13:26:26Z ecraven: bytevectors, I think
2018-03-23T13:27:06Z qu1j0t3: jcowan: I find those disturbing because so many languages use ! as logical NOT
2018-03-23T13:27:33Z jcowan chuckles
2018-03-23T13:27:40Z jcowan: well, #!r6rs does not mean "not r6rs"
2018-03-23T13:28:12Z gwatt: ecraven: also the aforementioned #true and #false
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2018-03-23T13:28:41Z gwatt: but yes, vectors of any kinds no longer need a quote before the #
2018-03-23T13:28:52Z jcowan: that's not the reader, it's the evaluator
2018-03-23T13:30:50Z ecraven: gwatt: well, I'd be happy even if r7rs was "mostly supported", I don't care about #true and #false
2018-03-23T13:30:55Z jcowan: It's straightforward to make the reader accept either #vu8 or #u8, but the printer has to choose, or else be configurable
2018-03-23T13:31:00Z ecraven: many other implementations don't either and say they support r7rs
2018-03-23T13:31:32Z gwatt: also library definitions are a bit different, including lifting the restriction on name parts bein valid identifiers
2018-03-23T13:31:34Z jcowan: I have often told implementers just to note any deviations from the standard in their documentation, and not to sweat it.  Pressure to become more standard will come, if at all, from the users
2018-03-23T13:31:44Z gwatt: (srfi 1) instead of (srfi :1)
2018-03-23T13:31:48Z vyzo: that's a good policy
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2018-03-23T13:32:17Z ecraven: jcowan: exactly ;)
2018-03-23T13:32:30Z ecraven: I've tried -- but failed -- to add :1.sls to git today
2018-03-23T13:32:48Z vyzo: so porting mal to Gerbil was an almost trivial exercise btw
2018-03-23T13:32:51Z jcowan: one problem with that is that on Windows, : is not a valid filename character
2018-03-23T13:32:54Z vyzo: which is a largish r7rs codebase
2018-03-23T13:33:32Z jcowan: Chicken doesn't have export renaming, even with the R7RS egg, but I consider that a feature of minor importance
2018-03-23T13:34:30Z ecraven: jcowan: as you said, if an implementation claims to support r7rs, users will start using it that way, and *then* they will put pressure on the implementation to fully conform
2018-03-23T13:35:48Z jcowan: Or not.  In which case we will have learned which features are truly dispensable
2018-03-23T13:36:07Z vyzo: will there be an addendum dropping those features? :)
2018-03-23T13:36:14Z vyzo: r7rs.1
2018-03-23T13:36:15Z jcowan: There are plenty of complaints about Larceny, but its refusal to implement "preposterous MUSTard" is not one of them
2018-03-23T13:36:23Z jcowan: Deprecating at most
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2018-03-23T13:36:40Z vyzo: I refuse to implement MUSTard too
2018-03-23T13:36:55Z jcowan: There is very little in R7RS
2018-03-23T13:37:02Z vyzo: it would be pretty simple to have r6rs in gerbil
2018-03-23T13:37:07Z vyzo: but I don't want it, that thing must die
2018-03-23T13:37:23Z jcowan laughs
2018-03-23T13:37:54Z jcowan: Someone once said that the most important effect of R6RS was in getting Chicken to accept modules
2018-03-23T13:39:48Z jcowan: Damn, I used to have pages listing the musts, shoulds, and mays of R7RS
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2018-03-23T13:40:57Z jcowan: There are about 60 musts in R7RS
2018-03-23T13:41:18Z jcowan: (including must nots)
2018-03-23T13:42:24Z ecraven: jcowan: those would be interesting
2018-03-23T13:42:51Z jcowan: about 15 shoulds, and over 100 mays (but of course implementations may do almost anything that doens't violate a must or a must not)
2018-03-23T13:43:00Z Franciman: Does anybody have their own implementation of scheme?
2018-03-23T13:43:09Z jcowan: Better ask who does not
2018-03-23T13:43:15Z jcowan: (me for one)
2018-03-23T13:43:19Z ventonegro: "Does everybody..."
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2018-03-23T13:43:55Z ventonegro: Guilty: https://github.com/asandroq/sly
2018-03-23T13:44:13Z jcowan: I have a spec for a subminimal implementation
2018-03-23T13:44:14Z ecraven: jcowan: if you find those, I'd be interested in them ;)
2018-03-23T13:45:03Z jcowan: the musts?
2018-03-23T13:45:14Z jcowan: I could reconstruct them, it's just a little bit of scutwork
2018-03-23T13:45:24Z jcowan: Ghu knows I do enough scutwork for Scheme
2018-03-23T13:45:31Z ecraven: oh, no need to do that if you don't have them any longer
2018-03-23T13:45:46Z ecraven: I just thought I'd add whatever is possible to my r7rs-coverage project (which I should really work on more)
2018-03-23T13:46:00Z vyzo: btw ecraven, do you have the testsuite you run somewhere?
2018-03-23T13:46:10Z ecraven: vyzo: r7rs-benchmarks? yes, github
2018-03-23T13:46:17Z vyzo: no, for r7rs-coverage
2018-03-23T13:46:22Z vyzo: I have r7rs-benchmarks locally :)
2018-03-23T13:46:27Z ecraven: https://github.com/ecraven/r7rs-coverage/
2018-03-23T13:46:29Z vyzo: i've been playing with them while clearing regressions
2018-03-23T13:46:36Z vyzo: ok, cool
2018-03-23T13:47:00Z ecraven: mind that it isn't very good
2018-03-23T13:47:09Z ecraven: many tests rely on other tests succeeding...
2018-03-23T13:47:21Z ecraven: I really have to work on it a lot more. it is also missing quite a few tests
2018-03-23T13:47:42Z jcowan: Also see the Larceny tests
2018-03-23T13:47:56Z jcowan: described in Clinger's paper
2018-03-23T13:47:58Z ecraven: by the way, is import and define-library and so on in the "global" namespace? which library exports them?
2018-03-23T13:48:03Z ecraven: jcowan: r7rs tests? interesting!
2018-03-23T13:48:38Z jcowan: It depends on the context you are in
2018-03-23T13:49:28Z jcowan: There are libraries (in which nothing is in scope except import), the REPL (in which define-library may or may not be in scope and (scheme base) is always in scope, possibly plus other libraries,
2018-03-23T13:49:36Z Franciman: ahah I see
2018-03-23T13:49:40Z jcowan: and programs (in which nothing is in scope except import)
2018-03-23T13:50:06Z vyzo: so in gerbil, import and define-library come from the r7rs prelude
2018-03-23T13:50:18Z vyzo: so they are effectively always in scope
2018-03-23T13:50:18Z jcowan: ecraven: alvays listen to ze vize elders
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2018-03-23T13:52:04Z ecraven: should define-library be in scope in libraries?
2018-03-23T13:52:18Z vyzo: probably not
2018-03-23T13:52:23Z jcowan: Chibi for example does not permit define-library at the REPL or in a program, only in a separate library file
2018-03-23T13:52:28Z ecraven: I'll re-read r7rs before asking more questions, I never looked into the library parts very closely
2018-03-23T13:52:31Z vyzo: you won't be able to make a nested one in gerbil, the macro detects and refuses
2018-03-23T13:52:37Z jcowan: no, ask, saves you time and costs me nothing
2018-03-23T13:53:07Z jcowan: nested libraries come under "is an error", which is how we spell "undefined behavior" in Scheme
2018-03-23T13:53:09Z ecraven: thank you ;)
2018-03-23T13:53:27Z ecraven: what is the context of a library definition called?
2018-03-23T13:53:35Z jcowan: the important bit about library bodies is that they are not written in Scheme
2018-03-23T13:53:51Z jcowan: but rather in "library definition language"
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2018-03-23T13:54:43Z vyzo: it's a normal module context in gerbil
2018-03-23T13:54:44Z jcowan: ecraven: Not sure I understand, the context of a library definition is a library
2018-03-23T13:54:45Z ecraven: have to go, thanks for answering my questions, I'll read up, ponder some, and then come back with more ;)
2018-03-23T13:54:50Z jcowan: Absolutely
2018-03-23T13:55:22Z jcowan: but to answer your other question, no standard library exports them
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2018-03-23T14:48:17Z jcowan: ecraven: See https://bitbucket.org/cowan/r7rs-wg1-infra/src/default/R7RSMUSTard.md
2018-03-23T14:48:26Z jcowan: vyzo: ^^
2018-03-23T14:52:02Z vyzo: thanks
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2018-03-23T15:19:51Z jcowan: ecraven: I wonder if the rows for eof-object and eof-object? got reversed somehow
2018-03-23T15:20:04Z jcowan: the former is an R7RS innovation, whereas the latter goes back to R4RS at least
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2018-03-23T15:57:18Z duncanm: wasamasa: you're a kawa user too?
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2018-03-23T16:54:06Z duncanm: dum de dum
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2018-03-23T17:30:38Z wasamasa: duncanm: yeah
2018-03-23T17:30:50Z duncanm: that's awesome, i've been hacking on Kawa too
2018-03-23T17:30:51Z wasamasa: duncanm: I like it more than clojure for the stuff I do
2018-03-23T17:30:55Z duncanm: yeah, me too
2018-03-23T17:31:43Z duncanm: wasamasa: i was thinking that it'd be nice to write a leiningen-ish build tool for Kawa
2018-03-23T17:32:08Z duncanm: wasamasa: i'm writing my code in R7RS define-library forms, and I wish there's a thing that could turn that into jar files
2018-03-23T17:32:22Z duncanm: i was reading into what asdf is about in Common Lisp
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2018-03-23T18:33:28Z wasamasa: duncanm: well, I did uberjars for fun: http://emacsninja.com/posts/hand-crafted-uberjars.html
2018-03-23T18:36:23Z wasamasa: a leiningen tool would still be nice
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2018-03-23T19:14:00Z duncanm: neat
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2018-03-23T19:58:20Z ecraven: what does "it is an error" in r7rs mean exactly? if close-input-port and close-output-port were the same procedure (close-port), would that still be conforming?
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2018-03-23T20:03:34Z jcowan: yes, it would be conforming
2018-03-23T20:03:58Z ecraven: so "it is an error" means "undefined behaviour"
2018-03-23T20:04:25Z jcowan: "it is an error" means that (a) the specification does not say what implementations should or must do (b) users cannot rely on specific behavior (c) implementations may document what they do, raising an exception or providing extended behavior or what not
2018-03-23T20:04:49Z ecraven: thanks for clarifying this.
2018-03-23T20:05:05Z ecraven: what about input/output-port-open? how would you even implement these?
2018-03-23T20:05:19Z ecraven: I mean, often you won't *know* whether a write/read works until you try it
2018-03-23T20:05:32Z ecraven: are they just meant to check whether the port has been closed already?
2018-03-23T20:05:50Z ecraven: (closed by calling one of the close-*-port methods)
2018-03-23T20:06:24Z jcowan: yes, the latter
2018-03-23T20:06:48Z ecraven: thanks ;)
2018-03-23T20:08:45Z jcowan: see p. 6 of R7RS for more details on "is an error"
2018-03-23T20:09:01Z jcowan: also note that some things are errors even though they don't say so, like (car '())
2018-03-23T20:09:21Z jcowan: might raise an exception, crash the program, return () (as in Common Lisp), or make demons fly out of your nose
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2018-03-23T20:40:29Z Franciman: what's the difference between: '((1 . 2)) and '((1 2))
2018-03-23T20:40:36Z Franciman: ?
2018-03-23T20:41:11Z Franciman: To me the would be the same, but the interpreter prints them separately and a function accepts one but doesn't accept the other as valid argument
2018-03-23T20:41:58Z elly: (1 . 2) is a notation for (cons 1 2) and (1 2) is a notation for (cons 1 (cons 2 '()))
2018-03-23T20:42:26Z elly: rudybot: init
2018-03-23T20:42:29Z rudybot: elly: your scheme sandbox is ready
2018-03-23T20:42:47Z Franciman: ohhh, thanks
2018-03-23T20:42:56Z elly: rudybot: (and (equal? '(1 . 2) (cons 1 2)) (equal? '(1 2) (cons 1 (cons 2 '()))))
2018-03-23T20:42:59Z rudybot: elly: ; Value: #t
2018-03-23T20:43:12Z elly: and therefore:
2018-03-23T20:43:24Z elly: rudybot: (equal? '(1 2) '(1 . (2 . ())))
2018-03-23T20:43:24Z rudybot: elly: ; Value: #t
2018-03-23T20:44:05Z Franciman: all clear, ty
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2018-03-23T20:46:20Z elly: no worries :)
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2018-03-23T21:48:36Z wasamasa: vyzo: could you please tell me what the (export main) business is about?
2018-03-23T21:48:45Z wasamasa: vyzo: it seems really ugly for a scheme
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2018-03-23T21:55:25Z vyzo: gerbil compiles executable modules
2018-03-23T21:55:33Z vyzo: and it expects a main procedure to be exported for the program
2018-03-23T21:55:44Z vyzo: the executable it generates calls it
2018-03-23T21:55:47Z vyzo: with the arguments
2018-03-23T21:55:58Z vyzo: also, question about the docker container for tests
2018-03-23T21:56:06Z vyzo: should I install in /usr/bin?
2018-03-23T21:56:15Z vyzo: I am currently installing in /gerbil/bin
2018-03-23T21:56:20Z vyzo: I think I should change that
2018-03-23T21:56:40Z vyzo: wasamasa: ^^^
2018-03-23T21:56:48Z wasamasa: you should package things properly, really
2018-03-23T21:56:53Z wasamasa: this is why I waited with gerbil
2018-03-23T21:57:00Z jcowan: /opt/gerbil/bin would be better, but yes, proper packaging is better yet
2018-03-23T21:57:15Z vyzo: I can change the docker container
2018-03-23T21:57:22Z vyzo: I'll put it in /opt/gerbil
2018-03-23T21:57:31Z wasamasa: sure, but the idea is that no matter whether docker container or not, you execute stuff the same way
2018-03-23T21:57:45Z wasamasa: otherwise development will need a different workflow from testing
2018-03-23T21:57:55Z vyzo: gxc just needs to be in your PATH
2018-03-23T21:58:24Z wasamasa: the restriction to not run top-level code is, idk
2018-03-23T21:58:31Z wasamasa: reminds me of some sml implementations
2018-03-23T21:58:44Z vyzo: it runs the top level code
2018-03-23T21:58:45Z wasamasa: why would you do that?
2018-03-23T21:58:59Z vyzo: but it also needs an executable main entry point to call with the arguments
2018-03-23T21:59:01Z wasamasa: no, you declare that a function is to be called instead of evaluating top-level code
2018-03-23T21:59:13Z vyzo: the top level code is still evaluated
2018-03-23T21:59:16Z wasamasa: there is already a perfectly fine way to retrieve arguments in r7rs
2018-03-23T21:59:19Z vyzo: it just calls the main function with the args
2018-03-23T21:59:30Z wasamasa: no need to muck around with a specially declared function
2018-03-23T21:59:35Z wasamasa: we're not in java land
2018-03-23T21:59:41Z vyzo: ugh
2018-03-23T21:59:44Z vyzo: I like to have a main
2018-03-23T21:59:55Z vyzo: it also makes other tools work well, like the profiler
2018-03-23T22:00:06Z vyzo: and it also allows your module to be loaded in the interpreter
2018-03-23T22:00:12Z vyzo: without running the entry point
2018-03-23T22:00:19Z vyzo: there are a lot of advantages in having a main function
2018-03-23T22:00:53Z wasamasa: or python land
2018-03-23T22:01:44Z wasamasa: check sagittarius regarding the main procedure thing
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2018-03-23T22:02:08Z wasamasa: it does something similar from what I can tell, but thankfully offers a flag to disable that nonsense
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2018-03-23T22:04:39Z vyzo: there will be no flag, i like having a main procedure and there are good reasons for it!
2018-03-23T22:05:14Z wasamasa: I prefer having no surprises and magic
2018-03-23T22:06:12Z duncanm: wasamasa: kawa has a similar requirements when compiling to jars, right? you get to specify the entrypoint
2018-03-23T22:07:01Z wasamasa: welcome to having to support other people's design decisions
2018-03-23T22:07:59Z duncanm: i don't have such a big problem with writing an entrypoint function
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2018-03-23T22:09:11Z wasamasa: what gets me is that I need a cond-expand for something like that
2018-03-23T22:09:29Z wasamasa: I could understand if I need a cond-expand because something doesn't have srfi-1 or to work around some bug
2018-03-23T22:09:37Z wasamasa: but this isn't a bug, this is a mandatory feature
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2018-03-24T07:27:07Z ecraven: has anyone rewritten the srfi-1 reference implementation to use r7rs things like case-lambda instead of laborously parsing the rest arguments list?
2018-03-24T07:27:44Z ecraven: or actually any r7rs large library reference implementation
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2018-03-24T07:31:04Z vyzo: I have some parts rewritten to utilize case lambdas
2018-03-24T07:31:41Z ecraven: just thinking it might be nice to have versions of the relevant srfi's that run on pure r7rs-small ;)
2018-03-24T07:31:57Z vyzo: noone wants to mess with olin's code :)
2018-03-24T07:32:11Z vyzo: I just rewrote the front-end for native procedures
2018-03-24T07:32:19Z ecraven: hehe, I'll give it a try later :P
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2018-03-24T11:19:52Z wasamasa: ecraven: there's a repo of srfis rewritten in r7rs
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2018-03-24T11:20:14Z wasamasa: ecraven: https://github.com/TaylanUB/scheme-srfis
2018-03-24T11:21:13Z wasamasa: ecraven: IIRC taylan abandoned this effort
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2018-03-24T13:08:14Z ecraven: interesting, thank you
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2018-03-25T12:28:09Z TCZ: why lispers dont have sense of humour and schemers are 99999999 times better
2018-03-25T12:29:44Z wasamasa: why do low-effort trolls keep visiting IRC
2018-03-25T12:32:29Z TCZ: i dont see them very often.....
2018-03-25T12:32:49Z wasamasa hands TCZ a mirror
2018-03-25T12:33:23Z TCZ: thats one per month
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2018-03-25T12:33:52Z wasamasa: you can look more than once into it
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2018-03-25T13:34:41Z ecraven: does any scheme compiler do stream fusion on nested map/filter/.. calls?
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2018-03-25T13:39:55Z pierpa_: Perhaps Stalin
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2018-03-25T13:55:17Z vyzo: ecraven: that's a great idea for an optimizer pass :)
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2018-03-25T14:02:51Z wasamasa: ecraven: time to port transducers to scheme
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2018-03-25T14:25:19Z vyzo: jcowan: is there a good reason for calling the construct delay-force instead of the much nicer lazy from srfi/45?
2018-03-25T14:25:32Z vyzo: note that it got implemented today in gerbil
2018-03-25T14:25:41Z vyzo: as I implemented srfi/45
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2018-03-25T14:30:07Z vyzo: hrm, he doesn't appear to be online
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2018-03-25T17:02:06Z ecraven: wasamasa: know of any decent short description of how they work?
2018-03-25T17:02:19Z wasamasa: ecraven: nope
2018-03-25T17:02:44Z ecraven: I've looked at them before, but as far as I understand, (map .. (filter ..)) is much more obvious to me than writing transducers to do the same
2018-03-25T17:02:59Z wasamasa: I don't really understand their mechanics either
2018-03-25T17:03:22Z ecraven: hm.. in essence, I think map (and maybe filter) *are* transducers
2018-03-25T17:04:00Z ecraven: but this might be interesting stuff for an srfi
2018-03-25T17:06:11Z elly: fused versions of them?
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2018-03-25T17:07:51Z Riastradh: You know, after they've grown up, they become less flexible when their bones fuse.
2018-03-25T17:14:03Z duncanm: heh
2018-03-25T17:14:07Z duncanm: hey Riastradh
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2018-03-25T17:15:20Z wasamasa: elly: transducers are tools in clojure to build fused loops by hand
2018-03-25T17:15:49Z wasamasa: elly: they're somewhat awkward to write, but not nearly as awkward as the equivalent reduce call
2018-03-25T17:16:43Z elly: ahh okay
2018-03-25T17:18:52Z wasamasa: there is a write-up online from a haskeller trying to understand them by producing the appropriate type signatures
2018-03-25T17:18:58Z wasamasa: so maybe that helps
2018-03-25T17:19:03Z elly: hm, could you link it?
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2018-03-25T17:20:58Z wasamasa: https://hypirion.com/musings/haskell-transducers
2018-03-25T17:26:29Z faLUCE: hello. Given x = somenumber, how can I set it to its negative value?
2018-03-25T17:28:20Z pierpa_: (set! x (- x))
2018-03-25T17:30:10Z faLUCE: thnks pierpa_
2018-03-25T17:34:57Z pierpa_: di niente
2018-03-25T17:41:43Z qu1j0t3: (although you might think twice about using SET! ...)
2018-03-25T17:44:47Z pierpa_: agreed
2018-03-25T17:50:23Z elly: wasamasa: I believe I have understood this blog post
2018-03-25T17:50:30Z elly: it seems like a useful generalization
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2018-03-25T18:20:36Z wasamasa: I still wonder whether a sufficiently smart compiler couldn't translate purely functional code operating on lazy sequences into transducer usage
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2018-03-25T18:22:15Z ecraven: interesting, this seems to be an effort to port all relevant srfis to r7rs for r7rs-large
2018-03-25T18:22:25Z ecraven: https://github.com/petercrlane/r7rs-large/blob/master/scheme/list.sld
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2018-03-25T18:23:45Z duncanm: This repository collects implementations of the libraries together using the (scheme NAME) import form. Tests (written in SRFI 64 form) are checked against the following R7RS Scheme implementations
2018-03-25T18:24:23Z ecraven: someone has replaced the rest-list checking for optional arguments with case-lambda in srfi-1, for example
2018-03-25T18:24:32Z ecraven: so they seem to be modifications from the original implementations
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2018-03-25T18:29:52Z ecraven: though the copyright for the srfi-1 implementation is missing, that is strange, it sure looks like Olin's reference implementation code
2018-03-25T18:30:57Z vyzo: ugh
2018-03-25T18:30:59Z vyzo: that's bad form
2018-03-25T18:32:02Z vyzo: so he kept the rest of the comments
2018-03-25T18:32:05Z vyzo: but removed the copyright
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2018-03-25T18:32:16Z vyzo: I wouldn't touch that code
2018-03-25T18:32:22Z ecraven: I haven't checked the log, maybe it contains hints
2018-03-25T18:32:28Z ecraven: yea, that is not a very good sign all by itself
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2018-03-25T18:48:16Z ecraven: why was `digit-value' specified to return only 0-9? there are many numbering systems encoded in unicode that have digits outside that range?
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2018-03-25T18:52:36Z vyzo: are you looking at srfi-14 code?
2018-03-25T18:52:44Z vyzo: olin's code is not unicode-safe
2018-03-25T18:53:17Z ecraven: no, looking at r7rs.pdf
2018-03-25T18:53:21Z vyzo: oh
2018-03-25T18:53:48Z ecraven: It says: This procedure returns the numeric value (0 to 9) of its argument if it is a numeric digit ...
2018-03-25T18:54:11Z vyzo: which procedure is that?
2018-03-25T18:54:37Z vyzo: well, jcowan_ appears to be online
2018-03-25T18:54:43Z vyzo: maybe he can clarify :)
2018-03-25T18:54:56Z ecraven: ah, it seems that non-decimal digits are encoded as numeric type "Numeric", not "Digit"
2018-03-25T18:55:25Z ecraven: Numeric: "Numeric value, but not decimal-radix"
2018-03-25T18:55:36Z ecraven: so there might be another procedure "numeric-value" some day
2018-03-25T18:55:46Z ecraven: (or even in a full unicode srfi)
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2018-03-25T19:35:58Z jcowan_: ecraven: Indeed, I have a sketch of a Unicode character database SRFI
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2018-03-25T19:37:33Z vyzo: jcowan_: btw, what's the rationale for calling delay-force with thi sname?
2018-03-25T19:37:45Z vyzo: why wasn't it called lazy, like srfi/45?
2018-03-25T19:38:13Z jcowan_: WG1 thought it would be less confusing, since that's what it is, force followed by delay
2018-03-25T19:38:38Z ecraven: hm.. to me, delay-force implies (delay (force ...))
2018-03-25T19:38:49Z ecraven: like filter-map is (filter true? (map ...))
2018-03-25T19:38:55Z jcowan_: Yes, and so it is
2018-03-25T19:38:55Z ecraven: or append-map
2018-03-25T19:39:03Z ecraven: ah, sorry, misread that
2018-03-25T19:39:09Z ecraven: ;) so it is as expected
2018-03-25T19:39:24Z jcowan_: The expression (delay-force expression) is
2018-03-25T19:39:24Z jcowan_: conceptually similar to (delay (force expression)), with
2018-03-25T19:39:24Z jcowan_: the difference that forcing the result of delay-force will
2018-03-25T19:39:24Z jcowan_: in effect result in a tail call to (force expression), while
2018-03-25T19:39:24Z jcowan_: forcing the result of (delay (force expression)) might
2018-03-25T19:39:25Z jcowan_: not.
2018-03-25T19:39:57Z jcowan_: We kicked around the alternative of requiring force to do a tail call instead, and decided against it
2018-03-25T19:40:07Z jcowan_: most applications of delay and force don't require tail semantics
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2018-03-25T19:41:49Z vyzo: true that
2018-03-25T19:41:56Z vyzo: but having to support delay-force extracts a cost
2018-03-25T19:42:29Z vyzo: you need to distinguish between 'eager' and 'lazy' promises
2018-03-25T19:42:41Z vyzo: i implemented it this morning
2018-03-25T19:42:54Z vyzo: you lose the inlining of force from primitive promises unfortunately
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2018-03-25T19:46:58Z jcowan_: You can't inline promises anyway.  The R5RS example of implementing promises as simple lambdas does not work unless you can prove that the argument is pure.
2018-03-25T19:47:27Z vyzo: marc inlines them just fine :)
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2018-03-25T19:47:47Z vyzo: not the undertermined forcing part
2018-03-25T19:48:01Z vyzo: but the check if it has been forced and immediate resolution
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2018-03-25T19:48:32Z jcowan_: Where is the storage kept?
2018-03-25T19:48:40Z vyzo: there is a promise object
2018-03-25T19:48:43Z jcowan_: Ah
2018-03-25T19:49:13Z vyzo: so I ended adding a new promise object on top, and then having the two interoperate in the updated definition of force
2018-03-25T19:49:27Z vyzo: it works, but it's a lot slower than primitive promise/force unfortunately
2018-03-25T19:50:38Z jcowan_: still no parallelism in Gambit?
2018-03-25T19:50:44Z vyzo: oh, there is parallelism!
2018-03-25T19:50:49Z vyzo: SMP support in gambit v4.8.9
2018-03-25T19:50:57Z vyzo: it's still buggy though, there are known crash bugs
2018-03-25T19:51:37Z jcowan_: Ouch
2018-03-25T19:51:47Z vyzo: well, multi-processing is hard :)
2018-03-25T19:51:52Z vyzo: it will get there soon enough
2018-03-25T19:51:53Z jcowan_: You might want to implement parallel promises at some point
2018-03-25T19:52:00Z vyzo: yeah, been thinking about it
2018-03-25T19:52:09Z ecraven: I think gwatt and I found a bug in chez's mutexes a few days ago, so threads are always a problem :-/
2018-03-25T19:52:48Z elly: what did Perlis mean by "Functions delay binding; data structures induce binding."?
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2018-03-25T19:54:52Z jcowan_: The point is that data structures are eager: they force computation in order to store values in the data structure, whatever it is.
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2018-03-25T19:55:07Z jcowan_: (This excludes things like lazy lists implicitly.)
2018-03-25T19:55:30Z jcowan_: Functions, on the other hand, don't produce values until they are asked to do so
2018-03-25T19:55:46Z elly: huh, interesting
2018-03-25T19:55:58Z elly: what is the "binding"?
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2018-03-25T19:59:01Z jcowan_: Of values to names
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2018-03-25T19:59:33Z wasamasa: elly: the code you put into a function is evaluated at the time the function is called
2018-03-25T20:00:07Z wasamasa: elly: this pretty much makes thunks equivalent to blocks and whatnot
2018-03-25T20:00:48Z elly: ah
2018-03-25T20:00:51Z wasamasa: haskell's laziness removes most of the need for a macro system (which provides another way of delaying evaluation)
2018-03-25T20:00:58Z elly nods
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2018-03-25T20:02:06Z jcowan_: At the expense of making the wisecrack "Lisp programmers know the value of everything and the cost of nothing" even more true of Haskell programmers
2018-03-25T20:02:19Z wasamasa: it took me some programming in smalltalk to learn that special forms aren't really necessary after all
2018-03-25T20:02:47Z jcowan_: Well, lambda is still necessary in Smalltalk
2018-03-25T20:03:06Z wasamasa: what lambda?
2018-03-25T20:03:07Z jcowan_: and if can be disposed of only because of primitive method dispatching, which of course involves conditionals under the covers
2018-03-25T20:03:10Z ecraven: also, sometimes it isn't so much about necessary as it is about convenient
2018-03-25T20:03:10Z jcowan_: wasamasa: Blocks
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2018-03-25T20:05:08Z jcowan_: https://bitbucket.org/cowan/r7rs-wg1-infra/src/default/BottomScheme.md is attempt to lay out a NotQuiteScheme that has as little as possible
2018-03-25T20:05:32Z wasamasa: you should take a look at how ifTrue: and friends are defined
2018-03-25T20:06:20Z jcowan_: Yes, one definition in class True and one in class False.  But you wouldn't be able to dispatch to those classes without a hidden conditional in the dispatch loop.
2018-03-25T20:06:35Z jcowan_: You'll note that changing those definitions doesn't affect anything
2018-03-25T20:07:09Z jcowan_: because like some other message sends they are compiled away
2018-03-25T20:07:46Z wasamasa: it's as if they do inlining
2018-03-25T20:08:10Z ecraven: jcowan_: interesting, I never thought about the fact that the free bits in a nand might actually be sufficient for pointers.. do all existing 64 bit OSs assign memory from the top or bottom? otherwise, you might have a virtual memory spread of > 47 bits, even if the actual physical memory is smaller
2018-03-25T20:08:35Z jcowan_: Win64 might be an exception, I don't know
2018-03-25T20:08:43Z jcowan_: "Tom" Wingo has a writeup on this
2018-03-25T20:09:15Z ecraven: having a scheme with immediate doubles would be very interesting indeed
2018-03-25T20:09:38Z ecraven: even if the fixnums are smaller than on other implementations
2018-03-25T20:09:40Z jcowan_: https://wingolog.org/archives/2011/05/18/value-representation-in-javascript-implementations
2018-03-25T20:09:46Z ecraven: thanks again
2018-03-25T20:10:04Z jcowan_: I urged the author of CLASP to do something like this, since he is focusing on float performance
2018-03-25T20:10:59Z jcowan_: Oh, it's Solaris that hands out addresses in the upper half
2018-03-25T20:11:05Z jcowan_: meh
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2018-03-25T20:12:13Z ecraven: well, you might hard-code some offset, depending on OS, unless the spread is too wide
2018-03-25T20:13:10Z wasamasa: jcowan_: I still wonder whether it's worth the effort to implement scheme in lua bytecode
2018-03-25T20:16:08Z elly: are doubles used often enough that it's worthwhile having them as the most immediate type?
2018-03-25T20:16:17Z elly: (looking at jcowan_'s doc)
2018-03-25T20:16:44Z ecraven: elly: with nan-boxing, they aren't the "most" immediate type, just one of the immediate ones. if you do anything involving lots of floats, it is a definitive win
2018-03-25T20:17:01Z ecraven: of course, no-one does that with Scheme, as other languages are always faster for numeric code (so far ;)
2018-03-25T20:17:08Z ecraven: no idea whether stalin does anything magical here
2018-03-25T20:18:17Z jcowan_: It can unbox specific floats by type inference
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2018-03-25T20:18:52Z jcowan_: wasamasa: foof has a plan to implement Lua in Chibi, which is a bytecoded implementation
2018-03-25T20:19:00Z jcowan_: also JS and bash
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2018-03-25T20:19:15Z elly: I have never implemented scheme before
2018-03-25T20:19:18Z elly: I should try it
2018-03-25T20:19:21Z wasamasa: jcowan_: I'm referring to compiling scheme to lua bytecode
2018-03-25T20:19:36Z ecraven: elly: depending on your expectations, it can be great fun ;)
2018-03-25T20:20:05Z elly nods
2018-03-25T20:20:23Z jcowan_: wasamasa: I realize, I was just mentioning that the converse is contemplated
2018-03-25T20:21:16Z wasamasa: jcowan_: I can't quite imagine how one would implement the numerical tower when your typical lua uses doubles
2018-03-25T20:21:35Z jcowan_: The latest Lua distinguishes
2018-03-25T20:22:32Z jcowan_: "The main difference between Lua 5.2 and Lua 5.3 is the introduction of an integer subtype for numbers. Although this change should not affect "normal" computations, some computations (mainly those that involve some kind of overflow) can give different results."
2018-03-25T20:24:24Z jcowan_: so Lua is now a fixnum/flonum tower, which as Chickeneers well know is highly suitable for the full Scheme tower.  :-)
2018-03-25T20:24:49Z wasamasa: like, I'd need to implement some bignum structure, write lots of code for bignum math and make sure that doubles are promoted to bignums when necessary
2018-03-25T20:25:35Z wasamasa: which means I need to include some runtime even if it's just basic math I'm doing
2018-03-25T20:25:37Z jcowan_: promote doubles to bignums?
2018-03-25T20:25:41Z jcowan_: when is that licit?
2018-03-25T20:25:59Z wasamasa: when some code starts out with small numbers and would end up with huge numbers
2018-03-25T20:26:03Z elly: I don't understand how, for example, continuations are actually implemented in interpreters
2018-03-25T20:26:04Z ecraven: I always wondered why there were no bigdoubles :P
2018-03-25T20:26:22Z elly: is there a good thing to read about how scheme interpreters written in lower-level languages work?
2018-03-25T20:26:45Z ecraven: les langages lisp (lisp in small pieces) talks about that quite a bit
2018-03-25T20:27:04Z ecraven: by christian queinnec
2018-03-25T20:27:09Z ecraven: french or english ;)
2018-03-25T20:28:02Z jcowan_: Unfortunately it costs the big bucks
2018-03-25T20:28:15Z jcowan_: http://repository.readscheme.org/ftp/papers/ai-lab-pubs/AIM-349.pdf is the original Scheme paper talking about quux's original Scheme interpreter
2018-03-25T20:28:28Z jcowan_: it's self-contained if you know any Lisp variety
2018-03-25T20:29:14Z elly: aha
2018-03-25T20:29:34Z elly: did MacLisp not have call/cc? (why do they describe it as "recursive" and scheme as "non-recursive")
2018-03-25T20:30:21Z elly: jcowan_: wow, you weren't kidding, it's US$100
2018-03-25T20:30:27Z elly: I wonder if there's a copy in the library at work I can borrow
2018-03-25T20:30:43Z ecraven: I got the french one a lot cheaper many years ago
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2018-03-25T20:30:58Z elly: I can read french but maybe not well enough to follow a dense technical text
2018-03-25T20:31:08Z jcowan_: no call/cc in MacLisp
2018-03-25T20:31:16Z jcowan_: in original Scheme it was a special form, CATCH
2018-03-25T20:31:28Z jcowan_: only in r2rs had people discovered that it can just as well be a function
2018-03-25T20:32:16Z elly: ahh
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2018-03-25T20:32:45Z elly: I was thinking more about writing one in C :) but this still looks like an interesting read
2018-03-25T20:33:10Z jcowan_: What it does can basically be mapped to C + GC (such as the BDW GC) very straightforwardly
2018-03-25T20:35:49Z elly nods
2018-03-25T20:35:54Z elly: I will have a read
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2018-03-25T21:15:16Z elly: jcowan_: this paper is mostly surprisingly easy to follow
2018-03-25T21:15:32Z jcowan_: Isn't it?
2018-03-25T21:16:06Z jcowan_: The RABBIT compiler paper is also very easy to following, and includes full code with detailed commentary on a facing page
2018-03-25T21:16:13Z jcowan_: it compiles Scheme into MacLisp
2018-03-25T21:16:22Z jcowan_: s/following/follow
2018-03-25T21:17:26Z jcowan_: https://dspace.mit.edu/bitstream/handle/1721.1/6913/AITR-474.pdf
2018-03-25T21:17:46Z jcowan_:  https://github.com/dhess/rabbit-scheme
2018-03-25T21:17:49Z jcowan_: (just the code)
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2018-03-25T21:19:04Z elly: this paper makes several mentions of PLASMA - what is that?
2018-03-25T21:20:02Z jcowan: an earlier implementation of the actors framework
2018-03-25T21:21:01Z jcowan: arrgh, every other page of AITR-474 is blank
2018-03-25T21:21:26Z jcowan: actually, no it isn't
2018-03-25T21:24:00Z jcowan loves some of the names in the Rabbit code, like "deprognify" and "lambdacate"
2018-03-25T21:24:59Z jcowan: PROGN being Lisp's spelling of begin, deprognify takes things like (BEGIN A B (BEGIN C D) (BEGIN (BEGIN E)) (BEGIN)) and simplifies them to (BEGIN A B C D E)
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2018-03-25T21:26:31Z jcowan: When I was studying Rabbit back in the early 80s I printed it out two-sided, punched holes in the paper with a 3-hole punch, and put it in a 3-ring binder
2018-03-25T21:26:41Z jcowan: that way I could get the facing pages to actually face
2018-03-25T21:26:53Z jcowan: now I suppose I'd use Lulu or something
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2018-03-25T22:38:09Z faLUCE: hello, if I do (display obj1)   and (display obj2)  , the string representation of obj1 and obj2 is the same, but the instances are different. How can I check if their string representation is the same?
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2018-03-25T22:52:16Z elly: faLUCE: display them to a string output port
2018-03-25T22:52:23Z elly: then check if the displayed strings are the same
2018-03-25T22:52:29Z elly: rudybot: init
2018-03-25T22:52:31Z rudybot: elly: your scheme sandbox is ready
2018-03-25T22:52:40Z elly: rudybot: (define (display-s o) (let ((p (open-output-string))) (begin (display o p) (get-output-string p))))
2018-03-25T22:52:41Z rudybot: elly: Done.
2018-03-25T22:52:57Z elly: rudybot: (display-s (list 1 "abc" (lambda () 1)))
2018-03-25T22:52:58Z rudybot: elly: ; Value: "(1 abc #<procedure>)"
2018-03-25T22:54:12Z faLUCE: thnks
2018-03-25T22:54:55Z elly: faLUCE: that's a bad way to achieve whatever you want to achieve though - it is much better to write your own equality predicate
2018-03-25T22:54:59Z elly: for whatever structure you care about
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2018-03-25T23:25:59Z faLUCE: elly: you are right. I ended up in using a library function for that kinds of objs
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2018-03-26T06:31:24Z ecraven: do I understand correctly that - even if an implementation uses nan-boxing - it still has to load the doubles into xmm registers, so a compiler that does type inference and just keeps unboxed floats in xmm registers would be better than "just" nan-boxing?
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2018-03-26T06:54:19Z ecraven: hm.. oes cyclone not support rational numbers?
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2018-03-26T10:44:01Z ecraven: ;)
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2018-03-26T11:23:21Z elly: isn't cyclone a C descendant? they usually don't support rationals
2018-03-26T11:23:36Z elly: platform-independent assembler and so on :)
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2018-03-26T12:12:39Z jcowan_: ecraven: I think those are orthogonal points (type inference vs. nanboxing)
2018-03-26T12:12:56Z ecraven: jcowan_: well, if you have very good type inference, maybe nanboxing isn't so useful any more
2018-03-26T12:13:40Z jcowan_: I think it is, because most things are in data structures at any given time
2018-03-26T12:14:37Z ecraven: jcowan_: do you know of any reasons *not* to use nanboxing? the only one I've been able to find is the fact that the address space might be extended to more than 48 bits, and there are only about 52bits in a NaN that you can use
2018-03-26T12:16:24Z ecraven: also, if you run on 32bit systems, that won't work well
2018-03-26T12:17:06Z ecraven: jcowan_: also, do you know of any scheme that actually uses nanboxing? I haven't been able to find one so far
2018-03-26T12:18:23Z jcowan_: no, but then as you say people don't do float work in Scheme because there is no good support, and so we go "ringing hands in hands in gyrogyrorondo"
2018-03-26T12:19:29Z jcowan_: one of my ideas is to write a NQS that just does ints and floats and floatvectors (and marginally strings for I/O) and then compiles to vanilla C
2018-03-26T12:20:05Z jcowan_: then you can write float code in this subset and compile it, and then call it through your Scheme's FFI
2018-03-26T12:20:10Z jcowan_ is now known as jcowan
2018-03-26T12:23:03Z jcowan: Also, nanboxing is still broken on Solaris, so there is no workable 64-bit build of Firefox there
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2018-03-26T12:23:12Z ecraven: do I assume correctly that in a nan-boxing scheme, it would be useful to use signalling nans, as you will at least notice if you actually pass them to the cpu incorrectly? as opposed to quiet nans?
2018-03-26T12:23:29Z jcowan: signaling nans don't necessarily actually signal, alas
2018-03-26T12:23:50Z ecraven: solaris was the one with the strange memory layout, right? thus no support, because the spread of the pointers is too wide?
2018-03-26T12:24:09Z jcowan: yes, although it seems to be safe if you never allocate memory with mmap
2018-03-26T12:24:15Z jcowan: https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=577056
2018-03-26T12:25:02Z jcowan: the reason to avoid quiet nans is that you don't know which one(s) will be returned by primitive procedures that return NaN
2018-03-26T12:25:05Z ecraven: I read that yestereve (that word should really make a comeback!) ;)
2018-03-26T12:25:22Z ecraven: shouldn't there be a canonical qNaN and sNan?
2018-03-26T12:25:25Z jcowan: yestreen in Scots
2018-03-26T12:25:46Z ecraven: I'll start using that ;)
2018-03-26T12:27:46Z ecraven: jcowan: do you think it's worth it to use a separate tag for tagging pairs?
2018-03-26T12:28:06Z jcowan: nobody has measured except perhaps Shebs
2018-03-26T12:28:53Z ecraven: Shebs?
2018-03-26T12:28:56Z jcowan: Bottom is enough of an NQS that maximal tagging makes sense to me, because it is intended to compile into straight C
2018-03-26T12:29:04Z jcowan: oh, didn't I give you that link?
2018-03-26T12:29:16Z ecraven: the link to the description of NQS?
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2018-03-26T12:30:07Z jcowan: http://www.softwarepreservation.org/projects/LISP/utah/Shebs-Implementing_Primitive_Datatypes-1988.pdf
2018-03-26T12:30:26Z ecraven: don't think I ever saw this, thank you!
2018-03-26T12:30:29Z jcowan: it's about an expert system to design primitive datatypes given certain constraints
2018-03-26T12:30:45Z jcowan: it lists about fifty ways it had already been done before 1988
2018-03-26T12:30:53Z jcowan: (but no nan, nun, or punboxing)
2018-03-26T12:31:15Z ecraven: well, I'm assuming that the results still might hold, just *inside* the NaN ;)
2018-03-26T12:31:27Z jcowan: IEEE 754 was very new then
2018-03-26T12:32:39Z ecraven: wow, this is great! thanks again
2018-03-26T12:33:10Z ecraven: why are there *still* papers I haven't found in my years of scouring internet for relevant lisp papers
2018-03-26T12:33:39Z jcowan: a lot of old papers aren't searchable
2018-03-26T12:33:47Z jcowan: notably the lambda papers
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2018-03-26T12:34:13Z ecraven: aye. I'm hoping that better OCR will fix this problem at some point
2018-03-26T12:34:20Z jcowan: I only knew about this because I was a contributor (see Tandem Lisp)
2018-03-26T12:35:03Z jcowan: unbelievable that IEEE 754-1985 failed to specify the sense of the quiet/signaling bit
2018-03-26T12:35:26Z jcowan: it is is_quiet on most CPUs but is_signaling on PA-RISC and old MIPS
2018-03-26T12:36:15Z jcowan: the 2008 rev prescribes is_quiet, but in the new decimal formats (which lisps should really support too) it is is_signaling
2018-03-26T12:38:05Z pierpa: Is there there any cpu which supports the modern kind of decimal floats?
2018-03-26T12:38:11Z jcowan: NQS is not a specific system, it's a generic term for "not quite Scheme"
2018-03-26T12:38:20Z pierpa: -there
2018-03-26T12:38:29Z jcowan: Bigloo is an NQS, so is Scheme->C because they don't support general tail recursion
2018-03-26T12:38:36Z vyzo: this a great paper
2018-03-26T12:39:10Z ecraven: jcowan: I meant the one you linked to yesterday
2018-03-26T12:39:48Z jcowan: pierpa: recent IBM System/z (i.e. the descendants of System-360) processors support it
2018-03-26T12:40:11Z pierpa: Ah. Good.
2018-03-26T12:40:26Z jcowan: ecraven: that was Bottom Scheme?
2018-03-26T12:40:32Z ecraven: I think so
2018-03-26T12:41:19Z jcowan: pierpa: Also POWER CPUs past 5
2018-03-26T12:41:56Z pierpa: Aha! Thanks
2018-03-26T12:42:20Z jcowan: so basically an IBM thing right now
2018-03-26T12:42:31Z pierpa: I see
2018-03-26T12:43:50Z jcowan: SPARC processors with it are also available
2018-03-26T12:44:08Z jcowan: Apparently Intel/AMD doesn't give a hoot
2018-03-26T12:44:43Z pierpa: pity
2018-03-26T12:45:38Z jcowan: WP notes that an abacus does decimal floating point
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2018-03-26T12:46:21Z pierpa: They would make life easier to us numerically impaired progs
2018-03-26T12:47:08Z pierpa: and users,  still more
2018-03-26T12:47:12Z ecraven: jcowan: you're even in the acknowledgements :D
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2018-03-26T12:47:58Z jcowan: Sure
2018-03-26T12:48:13Z jcowan: Some cool history of IEEE floats is hiding in https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microsoft_Binary_Format
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2018-03-26T12:54:13Z ecraven: did SETL ever go anywhere? I never heard of it before. is that a separate paradigm?
2018-03-26T12:58:54Z pierpa: It's been subsumed by functional programming
2018-03-26T13:01:17Z ecraven: ".. tremendous size of the runtime system. Common Lisp, for example, defines 600 functions, of which less than 100 are genuine primitives ..." Ha! look at C# or Java now :P
2018-03-26T13:04:39Z vyzo: woooo 600 functions! OMG!
2018-03-26T13:04:51Z vyzo: how about 6000 classes :)
2018-03-26T13:05:04Z pierpa: "It requires machines with 4 MB of ram" was a widespread criticism of CL, in ancient times.
2018-03-26T13:07:13Z jcowan: bah, I cut my teeth on a PDP-8 with 8K of 12-bit words, and an expansion to 32K seemed almost limitless
2018-03-26T13:09:09Z pierpa: You had 12-bit words? You were lucky
2018-03-26T13:09:40Z jcowan: It made ASCII representation interesting
2018-03-26T13:10:25Z jcowan: first char in the bottom 8 bits of the first word, second char ditto the second word, third char split between the most significant bits of both words
2018-03-26T13:11:03Z jcowan: the teletype driver ignored this and just left the high-order bits zero, so every third char was a NUL, but almost all application software was designed to ignore NUL on input
2018-03-26T13:11:59Z pierpa: :)
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2018-03-26T17:51:39Z ecraven: did fixnum mean "fixed point number" in earlier lisps? and inum immediate number?
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2018-03-26T18:21:45Z saden: How would I write a general reduce function which returns a list with the final value?
2018-03-26T18:23:05Z saden: Cons a partial application of the function with the car of the list onto a recursive call?
2018-03-26T18:25:02Z ecraven: (list (reduce ...))?
2018-03-26T18:29:56Z saden: That returns an error.
2018-03-26T18:30:40Z ecraven: I'm not sure I understand what you want. you want to write a normal reduce function?
2018-03-26T18:31:08Z saden: yeah
2018-03-26T18:31:44Z ecraven: then do what you said ;) just think of the proper way to end the recursion
2018-03-26T18:32:56Z saden: If I make it for math only, returning 0 works fine. It doesn't work in other cases, though.
2018-03-26T18:33:25Z ecraven: well, ideally, you just call it on the last two elements of the list
2018-03-26T18:33:31Z ecraven: or you pass in a value to use
2018-03-26T18:35:29Z saden: ???
2018-03-26T18:35:52Z ecraven: (reduce + '(1 2 3 4 5)) -> (+ 1 (+ 2 (+ 3 (+ 4 5))))
2018-03-26T18:36:05Z ecraven: or (reduce + 0 '(1 2 3 4 5)) -> (+ 1 (+ 2 (+ 3 (+ 4 (+ 5 0)))))
2018-03-26T18:36:07Z saden: Right
2018-03-26T18:36:22Z ecraven: whichever you prefer, both are used (though the latter is also called `fold')
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2018-03-26T18:37:13Z Franciman: Hello
2018-03-26T18:37:17Z ecraven: hey
2018-03-26T18:37:25Z Franciman: hi ecraven
2018-03-26T18:37:38Z Franciman: is there a way to interpolate strings with values?
2018-03-26T18:38:02Z ecraven: depends on your Scheme, `format' is a good bet
2018-03-26T18:38:27Z Franciman: will look it up
2018-03-26T18:38:28Z Franciman: thanks
2018-03-26T18:38:39Z ecraven: which Scheme do you use?
2018-03-26T18:38:46Z saden: That returns 15 without enclosing parens. How would I write it so I can call (reduce + '(1 2 3 4 5)) and get (15) or (reduce concat-letters '(h e l l o f r a n c i m a n)) and get (hellofranciman)?
2018-03-26T18:39:23Z Franciman: now I'm trying with chicken
2018-03-26T18:39:46Z ecraven: http://wiki.call-cc.org/eggref/4/format  for example
2018-03-26T18:40:03Z ecraven: rudybot: (format #t "foo ~a bar" 17)
2018-03-26T18:40:06Z rudybot: ecraven: your sandbox is ready
2018-03-26T18:40:07Z rudybot: ecraven: error: format: contract violation <NEWLINE>   expected: string? <NEWLINE>   given: #t <NEWLINE>   argument position: 1st <NEWLINE>   other arguments...: <NEWLINE>    "foo ~a bar" <NEWLINE>    17
2018-03-26T18:40:09Z ecraven: not sure rudybot has format
2018-03-26T18:40:17Z ecraven: rudybot: (format "foo ~a bar" 17)
2018-03-26T18:40:17Z rudybot: ecraven: ; Value: "foo 17 bar"
2018-03-26T18:40:36Z Franciman: cool, thank you so much
2018-03-26T18:40:39Z ecraven: for chicken's format, you need that #t there (or #f to format into a string, not to current-output-port)
2018-03-26T18:42:12Z Franciman: perfect
2018-03-26T18:43:21Z saden: Does a list with only an atom in it self-evaluate to the atom by itself?
2018-03-26T18:44:15Z Franciman: no
2018-03-26T18:44:19Z Franciman: I don't think so
2018-03-26T18:44:32Z Franciman: it's still a list
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2018-03-26T18:48:13Z saden: Thanks for the help.
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2018-03-26T19:06:33Z ecraven: hm.. would be nice in scribe were still alive, and would be used to author all srfis as s-expressions
2018-03-26T19:13:12Z ecraven: if, not in :-/
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2018-03-26T19:32:05Z Zipheir: call-with-srfi?
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2018-03-26T19:53:49Z ecraven: is there a way in syntax-rules to match a pair explicitly?
2018-03-26T19:53:59Z ecraven: as in, match (foo . bar) to *only* a pair, not match bar to a longer list?
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2018-03-26T20:06:49Z vyzo: you can use a fender if you have extended syntax-rules (eg in gerbil)
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2018-03-26T20:07:52Z ecraven: I was hoping for r7rs compatibility...
2018-03-26T20:08:04Z vyzo: no mention of fenders there, yeah
2018-03-26T20:08:07Z ecraven: probably I'd have to match (foo bar ...) first, *then* (foo . bar)
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2018-03-27T03:28:24Z Guest47189: can scheme download web pages
2018-03-27T03:29:21Z Guest47189: not (system "wget https://webchat.freenode.net/")
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2018-03-27T04:07:21Z duncanm: Guest47189: you can do that in scsh
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2018-03-27T04:29:58Z Guest47189: duncanm: that is not scheme though
2018-03-27T04:30:13Z duncanm: it is, it's based on scheme48
2018-03-27T04:30:39Z duncanm: anyhow, depending on which implementation you're using, you can find out how to use either a library to to http, or you can find a way to run a command
2018-03-27T04:31:21Z Guest47189: what about r*rs
2018-03-27T04:31:35Z duncanm: scheme48 is a r5rs implementation
2018-03-27T04:31:47Z duncanm: anyhow, you can use whichever one you have
2018-03-27T04:32:21Z Guest47189: but there is no cross scheme way to do it
2018-03-27T04:32:32Z duncanm: no, there isn't, afaik
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2018-03-27T04:51:21Z Guest47189: is there a way to list all functions
2018-03-27T04:52:20Z duncanm: the standardized portion of Scheme, the part in R*RS, is quite small
2018-03-27T04:52:33Z duncanm: there are libraries called SRFIs, and those offer specific functionalities
2018-03-27T04:52:42Z duncanm: most people pick an implementation, and write that
2018-03-27T04:53:23Z duncanm: R7RS-Large is an effort right now to standardize a set of  common libraries, but that's ongoing
2018-03-27T04:54:28Z duncanm: I'd say the programs that can written in R7RS-Small are not that interesting, so most people supplement that with implementation-specific bits
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2018-03-27T05:15:23Z Guest47189: what do you mean implementation specific bits
2018-03-27T05:15:55Z Guest47189: like another language
2018-03-27T05:16:17Z Guest47189: whatever the scheme is implemented in
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2018-03-27T05:21:10Z Guest47189: ...
2018-03-27T05:21:14Z Guest47189: what is the easiest scheme to use
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2018-03-27T05:35:36Z duncanm: I really like Kawa Scheme
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2018-03-27T07:44:58Z wasamasa: Guest47189: you should pick a proper nickname
2018-03-27T07:45:54Z wasamasa: Guest47189: scheme implementations differ in their extensions to the standard, libraries, unique features, etc.
2018-03-27T07:46:26Z wasamasa: Guest47189: what would specifically make things easier for you?
2018-03-27T07:50:23Z Guest47189: what is scheme mostly used for
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2018-03-27T07:52:33Z wasamasa: educational purposes and recreational programming
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2018-03-27T07:53:42Z wasamasa: some people get a kick out of sneaking it into other places
2018-03-27T07:54:02Z wasamasa: like, gdb and GNU make
2018-03-27T07:56:55Z Guest47189: are different implementations preferable for different domains
2018-03-27T07:57:29Z wasamasa: sure
2018-03-27T07:57:51Z Guest47189: is there a common scheme implementation
2018-03-27T07:58:19Z wasamasa: there is no canonical one
2018-03-27T07:58:51Z wasamasa: the community is split across a dozen or two
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2018-03-27T08:04:45Z vyzo: scheme is used for a lot of things
2018-03-27T08:04:58Z vyzo: Gerbil scheme is used in production for a couple of projects for instance
2018-03-27T08:05:06Z vyzo: but you should definitely pick a proper nick name
2018-03-27T08:05:14Z wasamasa: hardly a representative use
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2018-03-27T08:05:55Z vyzo: wasamas: it's representative in a sense that it's used for things other than education
2018-03-27T08:06:05Z wasamasa: and I'm saying that with a scheme project at work assigned to me
2018-03-27T08:06:08Z vyzo: don't make the mistake of assuming scheme is just an educational tool or hobby programers :)
2018-03-27T08:06:16Z vyzo: so you do production use too!
2018-03-27T08:06:26Z wasamasa: that's most of the use though
2018-03-27T08:06:47Z vyzo: that's a lot of the use, and that's fine
2018-03-27T08:06:50Z vyzo: but it's not just that
2018-03-27T08:07:32Z vyzo: and there is nothing wrong with recreational programming being a major use case of course :)
2018-03-27T08:07:47Z vyzo: it means that it's pleasant for people to write programs in, and they will seek it for recreation
2018-03-27T08:08:03Z wasamasa: right and the question was what it's mostly used for
2018-03-27T08:08:17Z vyzo: everything is the answer :)
2018-03-27T08:08:39Z vyzo: from window managers to computer algebra
2018-03-27T08:08:42Z Guest47189: what scheme is the best for webworking
2018-03-27T08:08:57Z vyzo: perhaps you should try gerbil
2018-03-27T08:09:02Z vyzo: has a lot of stuff for web working
2018-03-27T08:09:22Z vyzo: http client and server in the stdlib
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2018-03-27T08:09:28Z vyzo: also chicken has a lot of stuff for web working
2018-03-27T08:09:54Z wasamasa: Racket
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2018-03-27T08:10:25Z vyzo: i wouldn't say racket is good for webworking
2018-03-27T08:10:38Z vyzo: the interfaces are so baroque
2018-03-27T08:10:41Z wasamasa: someone is writing a book on it
2018-03-27T08:10:43Z vyzo: it's definitely _usable_ though
2018-03-27T08:11:41Z Guest47189: what about system administration
2018-03-27T08:11:53Z Guest47189: or unix shell
2018-03-27T08:12:04Z vyzo: if you are looking to replace your shell, then scsh
2018-03-27T08:12:18Z vyzo: can you pick a proper nickname wiht the /nick command please?
2018-03-27T08:12:29Z vyzo: it's a little disorienting talking to Guest47189
2018-03-27T08:13:12Z Guest47189: there are no other guests
2018-03-27T08:14:16Z Guest47189: scsh is so 2006
2018-03-27T08:15:44Z vyzo: just like sh is so 1970s :)
2018-03-27T08:18:38Z Guest47189: scsh was actually born in 1994 but died in 2006
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2018-03-27T08:22:52Z Guest47189: gnu is keeping sh alive
2018-03-27T08:25:47Z Guest47189: $(echo "like lisp")
2018-03-27T08:27:30Z vyzo: scsh still works today
2018-03-27T08:29:14Z vyzo: and there is still activity in the github page
2018-03-27T08:29:18Z vyzo: so it's not dead
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2018-03-27T08:30:32Z vyzo: it's true that mike sperber has stopped working on s48 though
2018-03-27T08:32:12Z Guest47189: scsh is a sourceforge project
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2018-03-27T08:33:39Z vyzo: it's on github
2018-03-27T08:33:50Z vyzo: https://github.com/scheme/scsh
2018-03-27T08:33:52Z vyzo: sourceforge is dead
2018-03-27T08:34:24Z Guest47189: the official website says otherwise @ https://scsh.net/about/sourceforge.html
2018-03-27T08:34:49Z vyzo: that's just not updated probably
2018-03-27T08:35:14Z vyzo: or maybe the github fork is unofficial
2018-03-27T08:35:19Z vyzo: nonetheless it's active
2018-03-27T08:35:35Z vyzo: so it's far from dead, and you shouldn't make proclamations based on outdated info :)
2018-03-27T08:36:29Z Guest47189: what about scheme48
2018-03-27T08:37:05Z vyzo: as i said the primary author has stopped working on it after r6rs
2018-03-27T08:39:34Z Guest47189: 6 is such an evil number
2018-03-27T08:39:34Z Guest47189: just look at what happened to perl
2018-03-27T08:40:24Z vyzo: standard scheme is at 7 now :)
2018-03-27T08:41:05Z Guest47189: divided by 6
2018-03-27T08:41:16Z vyzo: united by 7
2018-03-27T08:41:43Z Guest47189: 7 is fragmented
2018-03-27T08:41:59Z vyzo: not really
2018-03-27T08:42:44Z Guest47189: you say that now
2018-03-27T08:43:15Z vyzo: why do you think r7 is fragmented?
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2018-03-27T08:46:10Z Guest47189: ousterhout
2018-03-27T08:53:44Z vyzo: huh?
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2018-03-27T09:03:02Z Guest47189: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ousterhout%27s_dichotomy
2018-03-27T09:03:42Z vyzo: i don't see how it applies to scheme
2018-03-27T09:04:14Z vyzo: there are lots of implementations
2018-03-27T09:04:25Z vyzo: some are good for systems programming
2018-03-27T09:04:29Z vyzo: others are good for scripting
2018-03-27T09:04:33Z vyzo: some are good for this
2018-03-27T09:04:36Z vyzo: for both
2018-03-27T09:05:07Z Guest47189: r7rs is split between programming in the large & programming in the small
2018-03-27T09:05:08Z vyzo: and there is just so much that is not covered by either systems programming or scripting
2018-03-27T09:05:20Z vyzo: no that's totally not how you should interpret r7rs-small and large
2018-03-27T09:05:27Z vyzo: r7rs-small is core scheme
2018-03-27T09:05:38Z vyzo: the primitives that all implementations can agree on
2018-03-27T09:05:45Z vyzo: r7rs-large is libraries
2018-03-27T09:06:02Z Guest47189: is that common scheme
2018-03-27T09:06:19Z vyzo: ugh, as in common lisp?
2018-03-27T09:06:27Z Guest47189: yes but for scheme
2018-03-27T09:06:29Z vyzo: the process is different
2018-03-27T09:06:49Z Guest47189: are scheme implementations like linux distributions
2018-03-27T09:07:01Z vyzo: apples and oranges
2018-03-27T09:07:46Z Guest47189: https://killx.linuxbbq.org/ is core linux
2018-03-27T09:08:16Z vyzo: never heard of that distribution before
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2018-03-27T09:16:32Z ventonegro: So much wankery there
2018-03-27T09:16:46Z ventonegro: "designed for bearded/bald/odd people"
2018-03-27T09:16:56Z ventonegro: ffs
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2018-03-27T09:23:54Z aeth: Scheme implementations are more li ke Unix distributions than Linux distributions.
2018-03-27T09:24:00Z aeth: s/li ke/like/
2018-03-27T09:24:16Z aeth: Don't expect a lot of compatibility, but the core concepts are the same.
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2018-03-27T09:27:44Z vyzo: scheme implementations are not distributions of the same thing with a little sauce
2018-03-27T09:28:53Z Guest47189: what about linux from scratch
2018-03-27T09:29:05Z vyzo: it's still the same code
2018-03-27T09:29:10Z vyzo: different sauce
2018-03-27T09:29:28Z vyzo: scheme implementations may be radically different from each other
2018-03-27T09:29:57Z aeth: Schemes are more like FreeBSD, Linux, MacOS, Solaris, HPUX, etc.
2018-03-27T09:29:58Z vyzo: they all do implement the same core language at some level (with R5RS/R4RS as baseline)
2018-03-27T09:30:25Z Guest47189: so common lisp is windows
2018-03-27T09:30:25Z aeth: As opposed to Ubuntu, Fedora, Debian, etc.
2018-03-27T09:30:53Z aeth: Java is Windows.
2018-03-27T09:31:03Z aeth: (Or Python or C#)
2018-03-27T09:31:10Z Guest47189: basic
2018-03-27T09:31:16Z aeth: well, no, there are lots of basics
2018-03-27T09:32:05Z Guest47189: https://youtu.be/KkMDCCdjyW8?list=PL84A56BC7F4A1F852&t=2m30s
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2018-03-27T15:43:43Z duncanm: vyzo: that scsh fork on github is semi-dormant - i started it with a bunch of friends
2018-03-27T15:43:49Z duncanm: vyzo: i'm trying to resurrect it, hopefully
2018-03-27T15:45:07Z vyzo: duncanm: that would be great
2018-03-27T15:45:53Z duncanm: I wonder how much of it has to be tied to a particular scheme impl
2018-03-27T15:46:05Z duncanm: i'm hoping to get some of it working again on kawa myself
2018-03-27T15:46:14Z vyzo: untying it from s48 would be even greater :)
2018-03-27T15:46:25Z vyzo: if you guys can get it together, i could help with porting to Gerbil :)
2018-03-27T15:46:37Z duncanm: heh
2018-03-27T15:46:41Z vyzo: it's sad that s48 has died though
2018-03-27T15:46:42Z duncanm: I do find Prescheme interesting
2018-03-27T15:46:52Z vyzo: yes, prescheme is and awesome idea
2018-03-27T15:46:55Z duncanm: I wonder if the same technique can be used to target something else
2018-03-27T15:47:10Z duncanm: instead of generating C, generate something else
2018-03-27T15:47:27Z duncanm: dart and wasm are both interesting targets
2018-03-27T15:47:31Z vyzo: yeah
2018-03-27T15:47:35Z vyzo: dart not so much
2018-03-27T15:47:50Z vyzo: wasm is the way to go if you want to target the browser environment
2018-03-27T15:47:54Z duncanm: dart is interesting because flutter is cool GUI platform
2018-03-27T15:48:08Z duncanm: there's also https://github.com/google/schism, but that's just a dude's side project
2018-03-27T15:48:14Z vyzo: but it carries baggage in language design
2018-03-27T15:48:18Z vyzo: i've seen schism
2018-03-27T15:49:17Z vyzo: note that you can target gambit (and by extension gerbil) to wasm
2018-03-27T15:49:25Z vyzo: although the backend is incomplete
2018-03-27T15:49:30Z vyzo: things like ports and threads don't work yet
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2018-03-27T15:50:21Z duncanm: vyzo: talking about gambit, i looked into jazzscheme, it's a crazy thing
2018-03-27T15:50:38Z vyzo: jazz is cool, jedi even cooler :)
2018-03-27T15:50:48Z vyzo: the author uses it to write games
2018-03-27T15:50:49Z duncanm: these one man implementations just show a ton of dedication
2018-03-27T15:52:32Z duncanm: i'm gonna watch https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C3rzbs_8gNc later ;-)
2018-03-27T15:53:55Z vyzo: gambit ellicits a lot of dedication from its users
2018-03-27T15:54:03Z vyzo: we luv it for its low level and moldable nature
2018-03-27T15:54:16Z duncanm: yeah, termite was a cool thing too, is it still active?
2018-03-27T15:54:26Z vyzo: gerbil has actors that supersede termite
2018-03-27T15:54:30Z vyzo: it probably still works though
2018-03-27T15:54:35Z duncanm: i see
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2018-03-27T17:26:06Z ecraven: duncanm: is there any "core" to scsh?
2018-03-27T17:26:15Z ecraven: where would you start a port?
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2018-03-27T17:30:13Z jcowan: ecraven: You need to start with the github version, which works with current s48
2018-03-27T17:30:17Z vyzo: looking at the source
2018-03-27T17:30:18Z jcowan: https://github.com/scheme/scsh
2018-03-27T17:30:22Z vyzo: it would be a bear to port
2018-03-27T17:30:29Z vyzo: it's too much dependency on s48 internals
2018-03-27T17:30:40Z vyzo: and its ffi
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2018-03-27T18:50:44Z ecraven: vyzo: the approach I started with r7rs-swank seems ok, there's an r7rs (potentially -large once that gets a bit more implemented) part, and a number of $foo methods, which each scheme needs to implement
2018-03-27T18:51:54Z vyzo: that's reasonable for portably written software
2018-03-27T18:52:29Z ecraven: I've tried to do as much as possible in r7rs scheme, and just call out for implementation-specific stuff
2018-03-27T18:52:32Z vyzo: but scsh was writtne from s48 peeps for s48 :)
2018-03-27T18:52:43Z ecraven: is Manuel Serrano still active?
2018-03-27T18:52:49Z ecraven: vyzo: a different time ;D
2018-03-27T18:53:00Z ecraven: I'll read the scsh manual, I've never actually used it much back then
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2018-03-27T19:31:38Z pierpa: scsh was written by Olin Shivers, not by s48 perps
2018-03-27T19:31:55Z pierpa: *peeps!
2018-03-27T19:34:41Z manumanumanu: he did it all on his own!
2018-03-27T19:39:21Z vyzo: he was an avid user of s48
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2018-03-27T19:59:54Z Zipheir: scsh is awesome. It really should have been the beginning of a better UI for *nixen.
2018-03-27T20:00:17Z Zipheir: Instead we're still stuck with Bourne derivatives...
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2018-03-27T20:04:36Z duncanm: ecraven: i was hoping to go thru the manual, and ports different parts
2018-03-27T20:05:18Z duncanm: in my mind, scsh is the run macros, and the system call APIs, and some other bits like awk and regex
2018-03-27T20:07:15Z duncanm: there are some ports of scsh to other systems, and they port the process notation
2018-03-27T20:07:24Z duncanm: the process notation is the most famous part of scsh
2018-03-27T20:07:45Z duncanm: the process notation is what I called the run macros
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2018-03-27T20:08:53Z duncanm: if anyone is interested, they should look into this - https://scsh.net/docu/post/reproforms.html
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2018-03-27T21:57:33Z schemer_scm: ;)
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2018-03-28T02:54:42Z pierpa: is MIT Scheme still alive?
2018-03-28T02:59:25Z Riastradh: commit 3a9b060ca5abed8b60928ec16b26a6b9901b3d67
2018-03-28T02:59:26Z Riastradh: Author: Chris Hanson <org/chris-hanson/cph>
2018-03-28T02:59:26Z Riastradh: Date:   Tue Mar 27 00:29:18 2018 -0700
2018-03-28T02:59:26Z Riastradh:     Rewrite COND and DO to use spar rules.
2018-03-28T03:00:10Z pierpa: Riastradh: Thank you
2018-03-28T03:01:30Z pierpa: though, there'a bug that causes it to not even start, and it's being reported since 2010...
2018-03-28T03:01:40Z Riastradh: Starts for me!  Which bug?
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2018-03-28T03:01:58Z pierpa: I'm trying the windows version
2018-03-28T03:02:04Z Riastradh: I have no idea about the Windows version, sorry.
2018-03-28T03:02:27Z pierpa: I guessed so
2018-03-28T03:03:57Z pierpa: The bug is this one http://savannah.gnu.org/bugs/?31710 and none of the solutions proposed there works
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2018-03-28T03:20:37Z duncanm: Riastradh: wow!
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2018-03-28T05:53:18Z ecraven: duncanm: I'm just reading through the manual. it seems it was *meant* to be run on different schemes, not just s48
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2018-03-28T06:06:51Z duncanm: Yeah
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2018-03-28T06:49:31Z vyzo: that's encouraging
2018-03-28T06:49:47Z vyzo: if only there weren't so much s48isms :)
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2018-03-28T07:16:08Z ecraven: hm.. scsh poses some interesting problems in combination with java.. is there even a notion of "forking a process" in java?
2018-03-28T07:16:18Z ecraven: also, no numerical file descriptors, I think?
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2018-03-28T07:36:58Z wasamasa: java's process stuff is screwed up
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2018-03-28T09:46:59Z johnnymacs: Greetings. Some of you may know me and some not.
2018-03-28T09:47:25Z johnnymacs: I am currently interested in very small implementations of scheme
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2018-03-28T09:51:10Z johnnymacs: I've been a common lisper and an emacs lisper for a long time but have very little knowledge of scheme
2018-03-28T09:51:17Z johnnymacs: other than that scheme is like the haskell of lisps
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2018-03-28T10:21:45Z ecraven: johnnymacs: small in which sense?
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2018-03-28T10:32:48Z fibration: johnnymacs: chibi scheme is rather small
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2018-03-28T11:53:20Z johnnymacs: Yeah I was reading about chibi scheme
2018-03-28T11:54:06Z johnnymacs: it says 15 k lines of c and 25 k lines of scheme
2018-03-28T11:54:16Z johnnymacs: that's a decent filesize
2018-03-28T11:54:24Z johnnymacs: it might be hard to fit that on some microcontrollers
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2018-03-28T11:57:08Z johnnymacs: I suppose one question is what defines a "scheme"
2018-03-28T11:57:19Z johnnymacs: I don't suppose there is a scheme specification
2018-03-28T12:00:28Z pierpa: Just Google a bit
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2018-03-28T12:04:19Z johnnymacs: Well I am beginning to doubt if common lisp can do what I want and now I'm doubting if scheme can too
2018-03-28T12:09:01Z ventonegro: TinyScheme?
2018-03-28T12:12:55Z pierpa: What kind of microcontrollers are you interested in? There's microcontroller and microcontroller
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2018-03-28T12:34:21Z johnnymacs: I am simply interested in efficient and robust systems
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2018-03-28T12:46:28Z pierpa: Efficient and robust systems with how much RAM?
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2018-03-28T12:47:39Z pierpa: Are you talking 512 bytes, or a few mega?
2018-03-28T12:58:33Z jcowan: Picobit is a Scheme designed to run on very small controllers
2018-03-28T12:58:51Z jcowan: http://www.iro.umontreal.ca/~feeley/papers/StAmourFeeleyIFL09.pdf
2018-03-28T12:59:29Z jcowan: google it for various repos
2018-03-28T12:59:35Z jcowan: johnnymacs: ^^
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2018-03-28T13:02:47Z jcowan: you compile a bytecode VM written in C to run on the chip, then you compile your Scheme code (using a compiler that runs on Gambit) to bytecode
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2018-03-28T13:07:57Z jcowan: "Finally, a minimalist version of PICOBIT also exists, called PICOBIT Light,
2018-03-28T13:07:57Z jcowan: which removes support for unbounded precision integers and byte vectors, is
2018-03-28T13:07:57Z jcowan: limited to 16 global variables and 128 memory objects, but is much more compact
2018-03-28T13:07:57Z jcowan: than the full version (5.2 kB versus 15.6 kB)."
2018-03-28T13:08:09Z jcowan: That's *small*.
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2018-03-28T14:43:27Z duncanm: https://twitter.com/lemonodor/status/978823747464409088?s=19
2018-03-28T14:46:11Z jcowan: the moral is that default arguments should never be mutable
2018-03-28T14:46:22Z jcowan: s/arguments/argument values
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2018-03-28T15:01:08Z duncanm: jcowan: so the same code could be written in a scheme too?
2018-03-28T15:01:31Z vyzo: i don't think scheme really suffers from this, unless your defaults are quotes
2018-03-28T15:01:44Z vyzo: but then again you'd be modifying objects you have effectively declared immutable
2018-03-28T15:01:50Z vyzo: that's your own failing
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2018-03-28T15:02:26Z jcowan: an obvious case would be a procedure that accepts, say, a numeric vector of length 4 that defaults to #(0 0 0 0)
2018-03-28T15:02:35Z vyzo: right, that's a quote
2018-03-28T15:02:47Z vyzo: mutating quoted values has unspecified effect
2018-03-28T15:02:54Z jcowan: but yes, it is less likely because we don't normally mutate pairs or strings even though they are technically mutable
2018-03-28T15:03:00Z jcowan: vyzo: true
2018-03-28T15:03:06Z jcowan: or I should say, #t
2018-03-28T15:03:11Z vyzo: heh
2018-03-28T15:03:31Z jcowan: In Common Lisp and its ancestors, the convention is to use P instead of ?
2018-03-28T15:03:57Z jcowan: So:  How does a Lisper ask if someone wants to share their soup?  "Splitp soup?"
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2018-03-28T15:54:25Z duncanm: dum de dum
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2018-03-28T16:02:55Z qu1j0t3: :(
2018-03-28T16:03:01Z qu1j0t3 raises a formal protest
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2018-03-28T16:16:09Z ecraven: also, many schemes now complain / error if you modify immutables
2018-03-28T16:24:02Z pierpa: I think this should be mandated
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2018-03-28T16:24:38Z ecraven: r7rs probably says "it is an error to mutate immutables"
2018-03-28T16:24:41Z ecraven: which means UB
2018-03-28T16:25:20Z pierpa: jcowan: ∆.  Maybe in r8rs?
2018-03-28T16:26:00Z vyzo: i don't think you should mandate this
2018-03-28T16:26:06Z vyzo: it's an error, it means don't do that
2018-03-28T16:26:15Z vyzo: it's not a B&D language
2018-03-28T16:26:24Z pierpa: ...
2018-03-28T16:28:15Z pierpa: so let's not mandate any error checking. If something is an error then don't do it. So easy .
2018-03-28T16:28:28Z vyzo: it's not that
2018-03-28T16:28:31Z vyzo: it's up to the implementation
2018-03-28T16:28:39Z vyzo: but be aware that checking for immutability slows down all mutators
2018-03-28T16:28:50Z vyzo: is it worthed just to catch a PEBKAC?
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2018-03-28T16:29:05Z jcowan_: pierpa: What do you mean by delta?
2018-03-28T16:29:36Z pierpa: in this case obviously yes, since people make this mistake often
2018-03-28T16:30:17Z jcowan_: vyzo, ecraven: as a matter of culture, Scheme compilers don't usually take ruthless advantage of "is an error" situations, not even Stalin.
2018-03-28T16:30:26Z pierpa: jcowan: only a generically upward pointing shape
2018-03-28T16:30:43Z jcowan_: ah
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2018-03-28T16:32:11Z TwoFinger: vyzo: what's "a B&D language"?
2018-03-28T16:32:18Z vyzo: Bondage & Discipline
2018-03-28T16:32:21Z vyzo: see haskell
2018-03-28T16:32:38Z jcowan: No accident that Haskell rhymes with Pascal
2018-03-28T16:32:58Z jcowan: someone needs to write "Why Haskell Is Not My Favorite Programming Language"
2018-03-28T16:33:15Z TwoFinger: haha, are there BDSM languages?
2018-03-28T16:33:32Z vyzo: haskell borders on that :)
2018-03-28T16:33:39Z TwoFinger: this gives a new meaning of "strict"
2018-03-28T16:34:23Z jcowan: the S are the language inventors and the M are the users
2018-03-28T16:34:31Z jcowan: "Every object that denotes locations is either mutable or
2018-03-28T16:34:32Z jcowan: immutable. Literal constants, the strings returned by
2018-03-28T16:34:32Z jcowan: symbol->string, and possibly the environment returned
2018-03-28T16:34:32Z jcowan: by scheme-report-environment are immutable objects.
2018-03-28T16:34:32Z jcowan: All objects created by the other procedures listed in this
2018-03-28T16:34:32Z jcowan: report are mutable. It is an error to attempt to store a
2018-03-28T16:34:34Z jcowan: new value into a location that is denoted by an immutable
2018-03-28T16:34:36Z jcowan: object."
2018-03-28T16:34:38Z jcowan: --R7RS section 3.4
2018-03-28T16:35:15Z jcowan: Also, records none of whose fields have mutators are de facto immutable
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2018-03-28T16:35:42Z vyzo: pierpa: why do you think mutation of immutable objects is common?
2018-03-28T16:36:36Z vyzo: maybe people coming from other languages make this mistake at first
2018-03-28T16:36:47Z vyzo: but seasoned schemers very rarely do, if ever
2018-03-28T16:37:03Z jcowan: I think it is not uncommon with vectors
2018-03-28T16:37:28Z ecraven: it isn't that hard to (define foo '(1 2 3)), then later pass foo into a deeper chain of functions, which some way down try to modify it
2018-03-28T16:37:43Z ecraven: so I like it if a Scheme actually raises an error here
2018-03-28T16:37:54Z pierpa: vyzo: because I read newsgroups, mls, irc
2018-03-28T16:38:05Z jcowan: which are the datatype most often mutated
2018-03-28T16:38:23Z jcowan: ecraven's case is less likely because lists are usually treated as functional
2018-03-28T16:39:00Z vyzo: i don't feel like slowing the language for a mistake you make once and then learn from it :)
2018-03-28T16:39:19Z vyzo: dunno, it certainly is expensive
2018-03-28T16:39:24Z vyzo: it adds a branch everywhere
2018-03-28T16:39:46Z pierpa: There's no need to slow the language
2018-03-28T16:39:48Z vyzo: and it also has to read the bit off a datastructure, so that has an and too
2018-03-28T16:40:01Z vyzo: you have to make all -set! procedures check for mutability
2018-03-28T16:40:57Z pierpa: Constants can be put in read-only memory
2018-03-28T16:41:25Z vyzo: so you want to segfault instead :)
2018-03-28T16:41:29Z vyzo: very friendly
2018-03-28T16:41:59Z pierpa: (Which I guess is what the implementations which raised an error do)
2018-03-28T16:42:09Z vyzo: no, they usually check a bit
2018-03-28T16:42:14Z vyzo: that's what racket does for example
2018-03-28T16:42:15Z pierpa: *raise
2018-03-28T16:42:42Z pierpa: sigh
2018-03-28T16:43:20Z pierpa: exceptions can be handled...
2018-03-28T16:46:18Z pierpa: and anyway, yes, a segfault would be preferable
2018-03-28T16:47:17Z pierpa: If I have a bug in my program I want to know about it as soon as possible
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2018-03-28T16:50:22Z vyzo: dunno how you'd feel about crashing the interpreter for this
2018-03-28T16:50:32Z vyzo: i mean, it's memory corruption alright
2018-03-28T16:50:51Z vyzo: but more benign than most
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2018-03-28T16:52:03Z pierpa: are you an entomologist by any chance?
2018-03-28T16:52:20Z vyzo: not in the animal sense of things
2018-03-28T16:52:20Z pierpa: +h
2018-03-28T16:52:28Z vyzo: but I am interested in bugz, yes :)
2018-03-28T16:52:41Z pierpa: You love them :)
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2018-03-28T17:17:48Z jcowan: "First actual instance of a bug being found" (note taped to a circuit board with an insect bridging two of the contacts)
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2018-03-28T17:31:38Z pierpa: :)
2018-03-28T17:33:53Z pierpa: That's the story I knew: http://www.anomalies-unlimited.com/Science/Grace%20Hooper.html
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2018-03-28T17:54:48Z qu1j0t3: nice typo ._.
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2018-03-28T18:02:39Z ecraven: vyzo: I'm not saying it should be mandatory, but it sure is helpful in finding the bugs ;) if it could be done at near-zero cost, I'd advocate for it. a check before each access is probably not near-zero at all ;)
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2018-03-28T18:08:49Z ecraven: you could have read-only pages, catch the segfault signal, and just print a warning?
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2018-03-28T18:19:03Z pierpa: It's an error. If the implementation detects it, why just emit a warning?
2018-03-28T18:19:52Z vyzo: i am not saying it's undesirable :)
2018-03-28T18:19:59Z vyzo: it would certainly be nice to detect it
2018-03-28T18:20:13Z vyzo: but distinguishing the cause of a the segfault isn't easy
2018-03-28T18:20:24Z vyzo: and raising from the segfault is even harder
2018-03-28T18:20:38Z ecraven: pierpa: "warning" as in "error" :D
2018-03-28T18:20:58Z pierpa: aha!
2018-03-28T18:20:59Z ecraven: vyzo: yea, I've tried to find out, but haven't been able to find much of how to actually *get* the pointer that raised a segfault in the signal handler
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2018-03-28T18:21:22Z vyzo: and then you have to jump back from the signal handler!
2018-03-28T18:21:56Z vyzo: you can get the pointer from the optional context in the handler if you are using sigaction in linux
2018-03-28T18:22:01Z vyzo: dunno about how portable that is
2018-03-28T18:22:11Z vyzo: but then you'd have to also look at the instruction to see if it is a store
2018-03-28T18:22:14Z ecraven: yea, the question is, where is "back"
2018-03-28T18:22:17Z vyzo: and then lookup the pointer in the tables
2018-03-28T18:22:19Z pierpa: All of this is done routinely in many garbage dollectors
2018-03-28T18:22:23Z vyzo: and all that for not being able to jump back :)
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2018-03-28T18:22:40Z pierpa: collectors even
2018-03-28T18:22:55Z vyzo: pierpa: garbage collection is special case
2018-03-28T18:23:08Z vyzo: it doesn't ever have to jump back to user code to raise an error
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2018-03-28T18:43:39Z vyzo: ecraven: man sigaction and read on the section for SA_SIGINFO
2018-03-28T18:43:48Z vyzo: that's how you can get the pointer
2018-03-28T18:43:50Z vyzo: http://man7.org/linux/man-pages/man2/sigaction.2.html
2018-03-28T18:44:28Z vyzo: si_addr in siginfo_t is the pointer you want
2018-03-28T18:45:07Z vyzo: the problem of course is what you do next :)
2018-03-28T18:47:30Z pierpa: yell and return to top level, if nothing better can be done
2018-03-28T18:47:57Z vyzo: you make it sound easy :)
2018-03-28T18:47:59Z vyzo: where is top-level
2018-03-28T18:48:06Z vyzo: do you have a context for a prompt?
2018-03-28T18:48:16Z pierpa: I know it's lot of dirty work
2018-03-28T18:48:41Z vyzo: you could theoretically mess with the ucontext you got in the signal handler to make it point to some earlier captured context
2018-03-28T18:48:44Z vyzo: and the sig_return
2018-03-28T18:48:54Z vyzo: but this is simply not possible for CPS compilers
2018-03-28T18:49:04Z vyzo: also, there is not always a top repl
2018-03-28T18:49:11Z vyzo: what about this happening in an executable?
2018-03-28T18:49:17Z vyzo: what then, cry and crash?
2018-03-28T18:49:35Z pierpa: then segfault
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2018-03-28T18:50:38Z vyzo: and how are you going to debug this?
2018-03-28T18:51:27Z pierpa: How do you debug it if it doesn't crash?
2018-03-28T18:51:36Z vyzo: you get the wrong result
2018-03-28T18:51:40Z vyzo: in some very repeatable patterns
2018-03-28T18:51:56Z vyzo: because you are mangling initial conditions usually
2018-03-28T18:53:13Z pierpa: yes
2018-03-28T18:55:50Z pierpa: a middle ground could be to compile at high safety, with the checks, whatever their cost. Or in a who-cares mode for high speed whatever the lack of safety
2018-03-28T18:56:18Z vyzo: the crash approach might be palatable for compiled executables
2018-03-28T18:56:26Z vyzo: it's unacceptable for the repl though
2018-03-28T18:56:37Z vyzo: so to make it more concrete, the quotes in gambit are permanent objects
2018-03-28T18:56:38Z pierpa: yes
2018-03-28T18:56:53Z vyzo: in a special msection and only point to other permanent objects
2018-03-28T18:57:21Z vyzo: you could theoretically map that msection PROT_READ only
2018-03-28T18:57:36Z vyzo: brushing aside the issues with loading new ones and having to do some switrachroo in the page tables
2018-03-28T18:57:54Z vyzo: but if you map it PROT_READ, then you can crash and cry that you mutated read-only memory
2018-03-28T18:58:27Z vyzo: although, marc uses malloc to get msections
2018-03-28T18:58:33Z vyzo: we'd have to change that to mmap
2018-03-28T19:00:06Z vyzo: but it's doable, for some systems (posix) and for some modes of operation (compiled executables)
2018-03-28T19:00:17Z vyzo: it's a quite a bit of dirty work though :)
2018-03-28T19:01:22Z pierpa: the price to pay for game :)
2018-03-28T19:01:34Z pierpa: *fame
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2018-03-28T19:18:14Z Zipheir: Is there a more elegant way to return some of several values than, say (receive (x y z) (some-procedure) (values x y))?
2018-03-28T19:20:00Z gwatt: not really
2018-03-28T19:21:14Z jcowan_: That won't work reliably
2018-03-28T19:21:45Z jcowan_: the number of values returned by body must be equal to the number of variables specified by receive
2018-03-28T19:22:02Z jcowan_: (modulo the use of improper lambda lists)
2018-03-28T19:22:03Z Zipheir: Ah, interesting.
2018-03-28T19:22:18Z jcowan_: the result of (some-proc) will be discarded
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2018-03-28T19:23:36Z Zipheir: What about (call-with-values some-proc-returning-three-values (lambda (x y junk) ...))?
2018-03-28T19:24:09Z jcowan_: yes, or you can use _ instead of junk
2018-03-28T19:24:17Z Zipheir: Right.
2018-03-28T19:24:27Z gwatt: jcowan_: what? the values returned from the entire receive expression must be the same number of values specified in the binding form?
2018-03-28T19:24:43Z jcowan_: no, sorry, brainfart on my part
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2018-03-28T19:24:52Z jcowan: of course not
2018-03-28T19:25:21Z jcowan: I don't use receive personally, and I had the 2nd and 3rd args mentally reversed
2018-03-28T19:25:36Z Zipheir: Oh, ok.
2018-03-28T19:26:46Z Zipheir: Hmm, I guess I'll reread SRFI-8. Thanks very much, jcowan_ and gwatt
2018-03-28T19:28:14Z vyzo: so why receive and not let-values?
2018-03-28T19:28:35Z jcowan: Less verbose
2018-03-28T19:28:46Z vyzo: ok
2018-03-28T19:28:54Z jcowan: it is rare that we need to capture more than one set of multiple values
2018-03-28T19:28:57Z vyzo: and receive is probably a macro that expands to let-values anyway :)
2018-03-28T19:29:09Z jcowan: actually it expands directly to call-with-values
2018-03-28T19:29:24Z vyzo: you may or may not expand to that :)
2018-03-28T19:29:28Z jcowan: (define-syntax receive
2018-03-28T19:29:28Z jcowan:   (syntax-rules ()
2018-03-28T19:29:28Z jcowan:     ((receive formals expression body ...)
2018-03-28T19:29:28Z jcowan:      (call-with-values (lambda () expression)
2018-03-28T19:29:28Z jcowan:                        (lambda formals body ...)))))
2018-03-28T19:29:35Z vyzo: that's just one implementation though
2018-03-28T19:29:45Z jcowan: at least the sample implementation does
2018-03-28T19:30:40Z gwatt: certainly the most straightforward
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2018-03-28T19:33:03Z jcowan: defining it as (let-values ((formals) expression)) body ...) is also straightforward
2018-03-28T19:33:21Z jcowan: it's just that let-values was SRFI 11
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2018-03-28T19:36:12Z jcowan: apparently let-values was originally a synonym for receive, but was extended by Racket (alias PLT) to the current syntax
2018-03-28T19:39:59Z Zipheir: Did r7rs pick let-values for its greater generality?
2018-03-28T19:40:23Z Zipheir: Over receive, that is.
2018-03-28T19:41:45Z ecraven: I much preferred receive over let-values :-/ unfortunately, let-values got included in r7rs
2018-03-28T19:41:56Z ecraven: Zipheir: probably consistency with the other lets
2018-03-28T19:42:27Z jcowan: consistency and generality, most likely
2018-03-28T19:42:41Z jcowan: (reasons for incorporating things into r7rs are always speculative)
2018-03-28T19:42:52Z ecraven: jcowan: it would be interesting to grep all the major scheme systems for *any* use of let-values to bind multiple sets of values
2018-03-28T19:43:30Z ecraven: especially since there seems to be no let-values*
2018-03-28T19:43:41Z jcowan: let*-values
2018-03-28T19:44:03Z ecraven: ah, sorry for that oversight
2018-03-28T19:44:14Z ecraven: strange naming
2018-03-28T19:44:22Z ecraven: is there precedent? any other let*-..?
2018-03-28T19:44:33Z ecraven: letrec*, not let*rec, for example
2018-03-28T19:44:33Z jcowan: don't think so
2018-03-28T19:44:35Z gwatt: let*
2018-03-28T19:45:01Z gwatt: but you also don't write letrec as two words
2018-03-28T19:45:02Z ecraven: gwatt: my point is, let-values* is much more obvious to me than let*-values, as I've never seen anything that goes let*-...
2018-03-28T19:45:12Z vyzo: i use it quite a bit personally
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2018-03-28T19:45:57Z jcowan_: blame racket for let*-values
2018-03-28T19:46:14Z jcowan_: let-values is "let for multiple values" whereas "letrec" is "recursive let"
2018-03-28T19:46:46Z jcowan_: and so "let*-values" is "let* for multiple values" whereas "letrec" is not "recursive let*", it's something different
2018-03-28T19:47:04Z ecraven: vyzo: with multiple sets of bindings?
2018-03-28T19:47:09Z jcowan_: as things stand I have trouble remembering letrec vs. letrec*
2018-03-28T19:47:48Z jcowan_: except that letrec* is the one that's equivalent to a bunch of internal definitions whereas letrec is not.
2018-03-28T19:47:56Z gwatt: ecraven: you can also use let-values to bind single values
2018-03-28T19:48:26Z ecraven: gwatt: yes, but why would I? I find it very hard to read (especially compared to receive)
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2018-03-28T19:48:39Z ecraven: (( is ok, but ((( is too much for my poor brain :D  [)) )))]
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2018-03-28T19:49:24Z jcowan_: I intend to put forward receive (and rec, too) as R7RS-large syntaxes
2018-03-28T19:49:43Z ecraven: great!
2018-03-28T19:49:45Z gwatt: I was trying to say that you can combine single and multiple value bindings in one expression
2018-03-28T19:50:00Z jcowan_: https://bitbucket.org/cowan/r7rs-wg1-infra/src/default/YellowDocket.md
2018-03-28T19:50:21Z ecraven: gwatt: I understood. I've just never seen it (but I've never seen let-values used much anyway, I'm reading the wrong sources apparently ;)
2018-03-28T19:50:34Z ecraven: mit used to use receive a lot, but they might change it now
2018-03-28T19:50:44Z jcowan_: I use it in test code for things that return multiple values
2018-03-28T19:50:54Z vyzo: ecraven: so there is let*-values and letrec-values and letrec*-values in gerbil :)
2018-03-28T19:50:59Z vyzo: I usually mix it with other lets
2018-03-28T19:51:27Z vyzo: there is shorthand syntax for the mix
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2018-03-28T19:51:43Z vyzo: (let ((x (foo)) ((values y z) (bar))) body ...) will work
2018-03-28T19:52:14Z jcowan_: iirc we left out letrec-values because we couldn't think of use cases for binding multiple procedure values
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2018-03-28T19:53:08Z vyzo: it is useful if you are mixing procedures with plain values in your letrec*
2018-03-28T19:53:16Z vyzo: that arises in internal let/lambda body expansion
2018-03-28T19:53:29Z vyzo: that's letrec*-values
2018-03-28T19:53:48Z ecraven: jcowan: even? and odd?
2018-03-28T19:54:18Z jcowan: implementing them recursively is dumb
2018-03-28T19:54:32Z jcowan: and we banned recursive macros
2018-03-28T19:55:31Z jcowan: https://www.mail-archive.com/r6rs-discuss@lists.r6rs.org/msg04199.html <-- The Tale of Professor Simpleton and Dr. Hardcase
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2018-03-28T20:00:19Z vyzo: so what exactly was banned?
2018-03-28T20:00:24Z vyzo: isn't there letrec-syntax?
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2018-03-28T20:02:21Z duncanm: hmm
2018-03-28T20:02:27Z duncanm: in Dylan, they just have one form BIND
2018-03-28T20:02:30Z duncanm: and i think it does everything
2018-03-28T20:02:31Z gwatt: there is in chez
2018-03-28T20:02:44Z duncanm: oh, but there's also BIND-METHODS, which is basically LETREC
2018-03-28T20:02:44Z gwatt: specifically, letrec-syntax in chez
2018-03-28T20:02:45Z duncanm: hmm
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2018-03-28T20:04:38Z vyzo: gerbil has letrec-syntax too
2018-03-28T20:05:02Z vyzo: racket goes one step further, they have letrec-syntaxes-and-values :)
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2018-03-28T20:05:46Z vyzo: letrec-syntaxes+values it's called
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2018-03-28T20:11:35Z duncanm: http://amigos.rdsathene.org/other/prefix-dylan/book.annotated/ch4.html#bind1
2018-03-28T20:12:28Z duncanm: ? (bind ((foo bar baz (values 1 2 3)))
2018-03-28T20:12:29Z duncanm:     (list foo bar baz))
2018-03-28T20:12:29Z duncanm: (1 2 3)
2018-03-28T20:16:34Z duncanm: http://lambda-the-ultimate.org/node/5517  -- this is a fun thread
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2018-03-28T20:47:11Z Franciman: Hi
2018-03-28T20:47:43Z Franciman: Is there any guide to using futures and running async code in scheme?
2018-03-28T20:48:12Z vyzo: uhm, async code....
2018-03-28T20:48:16Z vyzo: how about using threads?
2018-03-28T20:48:21Z vyzo: serveral schemes support them
2018-03-28T20:48:37Z vyzo: you can spawn a thread
2018-03-28T20:48:40Z vyzo: and thread-join!
2018-03-28T20:48:44Z vyzo: and here is your future
2018-03-28T20:49:17Z wasamasa: Franciman: depends entirely on which one you've picked
2018-03-28T20:49:34Z wasamasa: Franciman: kawa for example supports futures
2018-03-28T20:49:38Z Franciman: I was hoping for a srfi, but I'm using chicken
2018-03-28T20:50:15Z wasamasa: CHICKEN has green threads only and implements srfi-18
2018-03-28T20:50:41Z wasamasa: you can do things that don't block the scheduler on such threads
2018-03-28T20:51:03Z wasamasa: so, some things can be made async, others not
2018-03-28T20:51:17Z Franciman: thanks, so I'll try threads
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2018-03-28T20:59:35Z Franciman: hey, how can you use call/cc to implement threads?
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2018-03-28T21:08:26Z wasamasa: there is a paper explaining common call/cc patterns
2018-03-28T21:09:48Z Franciman: wasamasa, what's its name?
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2018-03-28T21:11:36Z wasamasa: Call with Current Continuation Patterns
2018-03-28T21:11:52Z Franciman: thank you very much
2018-03-28T21:12:20Z wasamasa: the coroutines and multitasking examples are of interest
2018-03-28T21:13:49Z jcowan_: http://homepages.inf.ed.ac.uk/wadler/papers/papers-we-love/reynolds-discoveries.pdf <-- historical paper on the concept of continuations, which was discovered about 8 times before it stuck
2018-03-28T21:21:06Z Franciman: thank you
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2018-03-28T22:25:41Z ecraven: jcowan_: any plans on delimited continuations in r7rs-large?
2018-03-28T22:25:51Z jcowan_: Yes, definitely
2018-03-28T22:26:02Z jcowan_: or rather, a plan to have them, but no plan how
2018-03-28T22:26:44Z ecraven: perfect ;)
2018-03-28T22:29:16Z jcowan_: added them to the green docket (non-portable)
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2018-03-28T22:30:36Z jcowan: there is something else I have been meaning to add but I can't remember what
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2018-03-28T23:00:43Z pierpa_: the comes-from control operator?
2018-03-28T23:03:50Z jcowan: I think not.
2018-03-28T23:06:24Z elly: "surprise continuations"
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2018-03-28T23:14:29Z pierpa_: ah! COMEFROM is the historically accurate operator
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2018-03-28T23:18:53Z elly: I can't think how you'd implement true COMEFROM in scheme
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2018-03-28T23:19:22Z pierpa_: using discontinuations
2018-03-28T23:23:49Z elly: this is probably a foolish question but I find myself wanting to define two top-level functions that share state without also having that state at the top level
2018-03-28T23:24:26Z elly: like: (let ((state ...)) (begin (define (a) ...) (define (b) ...)))
2018-03-28T23:24:37Z elly: but (define) is scoped obviously
2018-03-28T23:25:02Z jcowan: (define a #f) (define b #f) (let ((state ...)) (set! a ...) (set! b ...))
2018-03-28T23:26:01Z jcowan: or in Schemes with define-values, (define-values (a b) (let ((state ...)) (lambda ...) (lambda ...)))
2018-03-28T23:26:06Z elly: I'm contemplating: (define-values (a b) (let ((state ...)) (values (lambda () ...) (lambda () ...))))
2018-03-28T23:26:13Z elly: yeah
2018-03-28T23:26:18Z jcowan: yes, that's what I meant (forgot to write values)
2018-03-28T23:26:30Z elly: all r7rs schemes have define-values though, don't they?
2018-03-28T23:27:11Z jcowan: yes
2018-03-28T23:28:14Z jcowan: Typically however it is defined more or less like the other form.
2018-03-28T23:28:29Z elly: I really dislike set! if I can avoid it
2018-03-28T23:29:32Z jcowan: well, you are messing about with state anyway
2018-03-28T23:29:57Z jcowan: indeed, global variables are inherently stateful
2018-03-28T23:29:59Z elly: that's true
2018-03-28T23:30:18Z elly: I don't know why the latter feels nicer
2018-03-28T23:31:59Z pierpa_: r7rs is only available as pdf?
2018-03-28T23:35:02Z elly: foof`: do you have some plans towards chibi wrapping select(2) somehow?
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2018-03-28T23:39:44Z elly: or is it better to embed it in a C program that uses select(2) itself?
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2018-03-28T23:43:29Z jcowan: pierpa_: Yes
2018-03-28T23:43:49Z jcowan: the specialized tex2html script does not work on it because of its internal hyperlinks, I think
2018-03-28T23:43:53Z pierpa_: ok
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2018-03-29T00:01:22Z pierpa_: jcowan: do you know hevea?  have you tried it? (http://hevea.inria.fr)
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2018-03-29T07:23:45Z wasamasa: johnnymacs: lol, you forth troll
2018-03-29T07:23:48Z wasamasa: johnnymacs: if you expect scheme to compete, you're an utter fool
2018-03-29T07:24:26Z wasamasa: johnnymacs: why don't you try tcl or something and make your implementation of it as small as you need
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2018-03-29T07:50:23Z ayys: can someone give me a demo of a parser written in scheme? Something that can parse given a grammer, like bison perhaps?
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2018-03-29T10:02:38Z foof`: elly: What do you want select(2) for? The idea is to just use separate green threads and the VM does the polling for you, but you may have a use-case I wasn't considering.
2018-03-29T10:03:03Z foof`: I don't suppose anyone here happens to live in Singapore?
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2018-03-29T10:06:03Z foof`: jcowan: Chibi just has an opinionated view of how to define libraries. In the advanced repl you can use ,meta (define-library ...). The point is to keep define-library out of the actual binding namespace to avoid conflicts.
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2018-03-29T10:27:34Z zalt: how would you transpose a matrix without relying on list-ref or procedural-style iteration? :D
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2018-03-29T10:30:01Z zalt: i was able to write a matrix multiplication thing without using any iteration (just map and apply), except in the transpose part, it works, but it's not as elegant as it would be if i was able to do it also in transposing it
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2018-03-29T10:49:51Z foof`: reminds me there was a fun thread on a mutating version of transpose a while back: https://groups.google.com/d/msg/comp.lang.scheme/Cvb4psCS1B8/9nlAt8kfen8J
2018-03-29T10:50:27Z zalt: heh, it's not as bad as i thought it would be, but i still think it could be written in a simpler way https://ideone.com/kINiRx
2018-03-29T10:51:38Z zalt: foof`: What the hell! even doing it in c wouldn't take that amount of lines
2018-03-29T10:53:23Z foof`: zalt: for a linked list?
2018-03-29T10:55:46Z zalt: oh, they're doing it using mutation, the goal being performance
2018-03-29T10:56:56Z zalt: wait, what does (apply map list L) do
2018-03-29T10:57:16Z zalt started wondering whether that's a one liner solution to his problem
2018-03-29T11:08:23Z elly: foof`: ah, okay - I saw threads mentioned here: <https://github.com/ashinn/chibi-scheme/blob/master/TODO#threads> but the text about IO ops blocking all threads worried me
2018-03-29T11:08:33Z elly: although I now see that is also from 2010 :P
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2018-03-29T11:29:17Z zalt: damn, the whole thing ended up being just 12 lines, including 2 lines of input
2018-03-29T11:29:51Z zalt: functional languages are great, i bet i wouldn't be able to write something that concise even in a language like python
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2018-03-29T11:45:15Z pierpa: greatness is not about concision
2018-03-29T11:50:37Z zalt: yeah, but it's a nice thing to have in a language
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2018-03-29T11:52:07Z zalt: especially if the language is very readable, it makes maintenance a lot easier and to some extent reduces the amount of bugs
2018-03-29T11:53:28Z zalt: (i wouldn't say lisp/scheme are very readable, but i think that's largely due to my inexperience with functional languages)
2018-03-29T11:58:20Z pierpa: hmmm
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2018-03-29T12:54:19Z foof`: zalt: w/o mutation: (define (transpose m) (if (every null? m) '() (cons (map car m) (transpose (map cdr m)))))
2018-03-29T12:55:13Z zalt: i've done something similar after realizing the inner function is redundant
2018-03-29T12:55:27Z zalt: yet i didn't get the error checking right, that's better
2018-03-29T12:56:56Z zalt: hmf, so every checks the conditions on all of them? yet returns true only if they are all null?
2018-03-29T12:57:09Z zalt: shouldn't it be (any in this case :D
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2018-03-29T13:02:42Z zalt: what does it even mean to transpose something without enough elements :O
2018-03-29T13:03:26Z zalt: shouldn't it stop at the row with the least number of elements
2018-03-29T13:04:19Z zalt: an alternative would be padding the data with a special value to indicate something is missing
2018-03-29T13:04:26Z pierpa: this depends on your specification
2018-03-29T13:05:34Z foof`: you could use either.  every would result in an (unfriendly) error on malformed input, any would silently fail.
2018-03-29T13:06:22Z zalt just learned using (require to include srfi/1
2018-03-29T13:08:10Z zalt: are all scheme implementations required to implement all the srfi/n?
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2018-03-29T13:17:45Z foof`: nothing is required
2018-03-29T13:17:57Z foof`: most SRFIs have portable reference implementations
2018-03-29T13:18:13Z foof`: (for some definition of portable)
2018-03-29T13:18:24Z foof`: all R7RS SRFIs have a portable R7RS implementation
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2018-03-29T14:59:25Z jcowan: zalt: I don't find Polish very readable either, but Poles do; and the same applies to Cambridge Polish.
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2018-03-29T15:16:50Z TwoFinger: scheme/lisp is Polish, no?
2018-03-29T15:16:55Z TwoFinger: (notation)
2018-03-29T15:17:47Z TwoFinger: see what I've found - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RPL_(programming_language)
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2018-03-29T15:23:01Z jcowan: TwoFinger: Yes.  "Cambridge" in this case refers to the home of MIT, not the English city/university.
2018-03-29T15:25:00Z TwoFinger: ah, I see. I didn't get the joke.
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2018-03-29T23:38:48Z python476: hi there
2018-03-29T23:39:04Z python476: im wondering about cps evaluators
2018-03-29T23:39:26Z python476: i have an (eval e r k)
2018-03-29T23:39:56Z python476: but should the k cont be part of the host language or the hosted language ?
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2018-03-30T00:16:44Z 
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2018-03-30T00:16:44Z names: DeeEff Kooda groovy2shoes duncanm ketralni` micmus manumanumanu amz3 aeth tessier exit70 ozzloy DGASAU tokik vyzo samth weltung mats Hijiri cmaloney kjeldahl hugo defanor cromachina lloda terrorjack bheesham M-krsiehl SirDayBat Riastradh amoe_ kilimanjaro stephe snw peschkaj sethalves nuxdie qu1j0t3 cky cross weinholt fiddlerwoaroof epony stamourv spectrumgomas[m] h11 rotty lpsmith arbv hive-mind cornett zacts pilcrow gnomon Zipheir turbofail copec aoh
2018-03-30T00:16:44Z names: ssake leppie johnnymacs balkamos bigfondue fgudin mario-goulart C-Keen szgyg pflanze khisanth_ jonh jp ArneBab ijp-znc tolja drot m1dnight_ zalt kjak fibration oleo pie_ Two-Finger pierpa sleffy JoshS dmiles bars0 pjb terpri sbauman atlask stux|wor- foof`` eagleflo_ XTL_ dpk Guest58055 fadein_ wasa gwatt nckx damke_ cmatei Kkiro clog yosafbridge ertes larsen r0kc4t mrm jrslepak niklasl em DerGuteMoritz
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2018-03-30T02:09:56Z duncanm: jcowan: is there a reason why in R7RS, the exports are not given a name like the interfaces in s48?
2018-03-30T02:11:59Z jcowan: I'm not sure what that would mean in the R7RS library context.
2018-03-30T02:12:50Z duncanm: in S48, in place of (export a b c ...), you can say it's an interface
2018-03-30T02:13:05Z duncanm: and then (define-interface foo (export a b c...))
2018-03-30T02:13:34Z duncanm: so if 2 structures (or libraries in R7RS) export the same things, you don't have to write it down twice
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2018-03-30T02:25:01Z jcowan: duncanm: You can put the exports into a file and then include that file with include-library-declarations
2018-03-30T02:25:17Z duncanm: oh?
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2018-03-30T02:25:57Z jcowan: similarly if you have many libraries that import the same things, you can put the imports into a file in the same way.
2018-03-30T02:26:09Z duncanm: and how do i name them?
2018-03-30T02:26:31Z jcowan: (include-library-declarations "whateveryouwant.scm")
2018-03-30T02:26:38Z duncanm: oh
2018-03-30T02:26:49Z duncanm: and inside whatever.scm, I just have a single form, (export a b c ...) ?
2018-03-30T02:27:20Z jcowan: just so
2018-03-30T02:27:24Z jcowan: or multiple export forms
2018-03-30T02:27:28Z jcowan: or multiple import forms
2018-03-30T02:27:38Z duncanm: ahh
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2018-03-30T16:20:34Z duncanm: la la la
2018-03-30T16:27:23Z jcowan: Upidee, upida
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2018-03-30T19:25:41Z moufl50: .-.            .-.
2018-03-30T19:25:41Z moufl50: .-.            .-.
2018-03-30T19:25:41Z moufl50: .-.            .-.
2018-03-30T19:25:41Z moufl50: .-.            .-.
2018-03-30T19:25:45Z moufl50: /   \          /   \
2018-03-30T19:25:45Z moufl50: /   \          /   \
2018-03-30T19:25:45Z moufl50: /   \          /   \
2018-03-30T19:25:45Z moufl50: /   \          /   \
2018-03-30T19:25:49Z moufl50: |   _ \        / _   |
2018-03-30T19:25:49Z moufl50: |   _ \        / _   |
2018-03-30T19:25:49Z moufl50: |   _ \        / _   |
2018-03-30T19:25:49Z moufl50: |   _ \        / _   |
2018-03-30T19:25:53Z moufl50: ;  | \ \      / / |  ;
2018-03-30T19:25:53Z moufl50: ;  | \ \      / / |  ;
2018-03-30T19:25:53Z moufl50: ;  | \ \      / / |  ;
2018-03-30T19:25:53Z moufl50: ;  | \ \      / / |  ;
2018-03-30T19:25:57Z moufl50: \  \ \ \_.._/ / /  /
2018-03-30T19:25:57Z moufl50: \  \ \ \_.._/ / /  /
2018-03-30T19:25:57Z moufl50: \  \ \ \_.._/ / /  /
2018-03-30T19:25:57Z moufl50: \  \ \ \_.._/ / /  /
2018-03-30T19:26:01Z moufl50: '. '.;'    ';,' .'
2018-03-30T19:26:01Z moufl50: '. '.;'    ';,' .'
2018-03-30T19:26:01Z moufl50: '. '.;'    ';,' .'
2018-03-30T19:26:01Z moufl50: '. '.;'    ';,' .'
2018-03-30T19:26:05Z moufl50: './ _    _ \.'
2018-03-30T19:26:05Z moufl50: './ _    _ \.'
2018-03-30T19:26:05Z moufl50: './ _    _ \.'
2018-03-30T19:26:05Z moufl50: './ _    _ \.'
2018-03-30T19:26:09Z moufl50: .'  a __ a  '.
2018-03-30T19:26:09Z moufl50: .'  a __ a  '.
2018-03-30T19:26:09Z moufl50: .'  a __ a  '.
2018-03-30T19:26:09Z moufl50: .'  a __ a  '.
2018-03-30T19:26:13Z moufl50: '--./ _,   \/   ,_ \.--'
2018-03-30T19:26:13Z moufl50: '--./ _,   \/   ,_ \.--'
2018-03-30T19:26:13Z moufl50: '--./ _,   \/   ,_ \.--'
2018-03-30T19:26:13Z moufl50: '--./ _,   \/   ,_ \.--'
2018-03-30T19:26:17Z moufl50: ----|   \   /\   /   |----
2018-03-30T19:26:17Z moufl50: ----|   \   /\   /   |----
2018-03-30T19:26:17Z moufl50: ----|   \   /\   /   |----
2018-03-30T19:26:17Z moufl50: ----|   \   /\   /   |----
2018-03-30T19:26:21Z moufl50: .--'\   '-'  '-'    /'--.
2018-03-30T19:26:21Z moufl50: .--'\   '-'  '-'    /'--.
2018-03-30T19:26:21Z moufl50: .--'\   '-'  '-'    /'--.
2018-03-30T19:26:21Z moufl50: .--'\   '-'  '-'    /'--.
2018-03-30T19:26:25Z moufl50: _>.__  -- _.-  `;
2018-03-30T19:26:25Z moufl50: _>.__  -- _.-  `;
2018-03-30T19:26:25Z moufl50: _>.__  -- _.-  `;
2018-03-30T19:26:25Z moufl50: _>.__  -- _.-  `;
2018-03-30T19:26:29Z moufl50: .' _     __/     _/
2018-03-30T19:26:29Z moufl50: .' _     __/     _/
2018-03-30T19:26:29Z moufl50: .' _     __/     _/
2018-03-30T19:26:29Z moufl50: .' _     __/     _/
2018-03-30T19:26:33Z moufl50: /    '.,:".-\    /:,
2018-03-30T19:26:33Z moufl50: /    '.,:".-\    /:,
2018-03-30T19:26:33Z moufl50: /    '.,:".-\    /:,
2018-03-30T19:26:33Z moufl50: /    '.,:".-\    /:,
2018-03-30T19:26:37Z moufl50: |      \.'   `""`'.\\
2018-03-30T19:26:37Z moufl50: |      \.'   `""`'.\\
2018-03-30T19:26:37Z moufl50: |      \.'   `""`'.\\
2018-03-30T19:26:37Z moufl50: |      \.'   `""`'.\\
2018-03-30T19:26:41Z moufl50: '-,.__/  _   .-.  ;|_
2018-03-30T19:26:41Z moufl50: '-,.__/  _   .-.  ;|_
2018-03-30T19:26:41Z moufl50: '-,.__/  _   .-.  ;|_
2018-03-30T19:26:41Z moufl50: '-,.__/  _   .-.  ;|_
2018-03-30T19:26:45Z moufl50: /` `|| _/ `\/_  \_|| `\
2018-03-30T19:26:45Z moufl50: /` `|| _/ `\/_  \_|| `\
2018-03-30T19:26:45Z moufl50: /` `|| _/ `\/_  \_|| `\
2018-03-30T19:26:45Z moufl50: /` `|| _/ `\/_  \_|| `\
2018-03-30T19:26:49Z moufl50: |    ||/ \-./` \ / ||   |
2018-03-30T19:26:49Z moufl50: |    ||/ \-./` \ / ||   |
2018-03-30T19:26:49Z moufl50: |    ||/ \-./` \ / ||   |
2018-03-30T19:26:49Z moufl50: |    ||/ \-./` \ / ||   |
2018-03-30T19:26:53Z moufl50: \   ||__/__|___|__||  /
2018-03-30T19:26:53Z moufl50: \   ||__/__|___|__||  /
2018-03-30T19:26:53Z moufl50: \   ||__/__|___|__||  /
2018-03-30T19:26:53Z moufl50: \   ||__/__|___|__||  /
2018-03-30T19:26:57Z moufl50: \_ |_Happy Easter_| /
2018-03-30T19:26:57Z moufl50: \_ |_Happy Easter_| /
2018-03-30T19:26:57Z moufl50: \_ |_Happy Easter_| /
2018-03-30T19:26:57Z moufl50: \_ |_Happy Easter_| /
2018-03-30T19:27:01Z moufl50: jgs .'  \ =  _= _ = _= /`\
2018-03-30T19:27:01Z moufl50: jgs .'  \ =  _= _ = _= /`\
2018-03-30T19:27:01Z moufl50: jgs .'  \ =  _= _ = _= /`\
2018-03-30T19:27:01Z moufl50: jgs .'  \ =  _= _ = _= /`\
2018-03-30T19:27:05Z moufl50: /     `-;----=--;--'   \
2018-03-30T19:27:05Z moufl50: /     `-;----=--;--'   \
2018-03-30T19:27:05Z moufl50: /     `-;----=--;--'   \
2018-03-30T19:27:05Z moufl50: /     `-;----=--;--'   \
2018-03-30T19:27:09Z moufl50: \    _.-'        '.    /
2018-03-30T19:27:09Z moufl50: \    _.-'        '.    /
2018-03-30T19:27:09Z moufl50: \    _.-'        '.    /
2018-03-30T19:27:09Z moufl50: \    _.-'        '.    /
2018-03-30T19:27:13Z moufl50: `""`              `""`
2018-03-30T19:27:13Z moufl50: `""`              `""`
2018-03-30T19:27:13Z moufl50: `""`              `""`
2018-03-30T19:27:13Z moufl50: `""`              `""`
2018-03-30T19:27:17Z moufl50: L0DE AND CHRON FROM #LRH & L0DE RADIO HOUR (IRC.EFNET.ORG) WANTED TO SAY HAPPY EASTER!!
2018-03-30T19:27:17Z moufl50: L0DE AND CHRON FROM #LRH & L0DE RADIO HOUR (IRC.EFNET.ORG) WANTED TO SAY HAPPY EASTER!!
2018-03-30T19:27:17Z moufl50: L0DE AND CHRON FROM #LRH & L0DE RADIO HOUR (IRC.EFNET.ORG) WANTED TO SAY HAPPY EASTER!!
2018-03-30T19:27:17Z moufl50: L0DE AND CHRON FROM #LRH & L0DE RADIO HOUR (IRC.EFNET.ORG) WANTED TO SAY HAPPY EASTER!!
2018-03-30T19:27:21Z moufl50: zacts Satou sleffy hooverville jao jcowan_ pierpa_ nulquen badkins epony pk6vx0x2 oleo cemerick pie_ khisanth_ ArneBab arbv jp siiky bigfondue vicenteH logicmoo vyzo dmiles DonVlad wigust TwoFinger cmaloney markx[m] DeeEff plll[m] ArthurAGleckler[ eatonphil mbakke M-krsiehl Kooda willghatch[m] happy_gnu[m] fibratio` spectrumgomas[m] Kryo ByronJohnson ineiros LeoNerd pchrist fizzie blt alphor averell webshinra dan64 mg- acarrico elly bmansurov ccl-logbot e
2018-03-30T19:27:21Z moufl50 quit (Client Quit)
2018-03-30T19:27:36Z wasamasa: pathetic
2018-03-30T19:28:15Z wasamasa: after months of spam here and there they still haven't figured out their blunt weapons
2018-03-30T19:28:16Z zacts: ugh..
2018-03-30T19:28:31Z pie_: it worked better in the other chnnels
2018-03-30T19:28:45Z wasamasa: sometimes the colors break, sometimes they don't get their ascii art right, sometimes there's no working links in the messages
2018-03-30T19:30:00Z nulquen: what is the AA meant to be?
2018-03-30T19:30:23Z wasamasa: an easter bunny presumably
2018-03-30T19:33:56Z wasamasa: a less fucked up version showed up elsewhere
2018-03-30T19:34:02Z Satou left #scheme
2018-03-30T19:36:22Z duncanm: why do people do that?
2018-03-30T19:38:12Z wasamasa: http://ix.io/14B1
2018-03-30T19:38:15Z wasamasa: I tried fixing it
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2018-03-30T19:41:09Z nulquen: much appreciated
2018-03-30T19:41:33Z wasamasa: :>
2018-03-30T19:42:32Z ecraven: that one actually looks nice
2018-03-30T19:43:04Z wasamasa: http://ix.io/14Bh
2018-03-30T19:43:06Z wasamasa: better
2018-03-30T19:43:12Z wasamasa: the jgs line bugged me
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2018-03-30T20:44:42Z duncanm: this is cute - https://twitter.com/aphyr/status/979381525992169472
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2018-03-31T09:43:10Z Franciman: Hi
2018-03-31T09:43:26Z Franciman: is there a way to get the number of params a procedure accepts?
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2018-03-31T11:18:54Z wasamasa: not portably, no
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2018-03-31T11:19:14Z wasamasa: this belongs to the implementation-specific bin and requires a certain amount of introspection
2018-03-31T11:22:08Z Franciman: i see
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2018-03-31T11:25:54Z wasamasa: it's one of the reason geiser works differently well, depending on the chosen implementation
2018-03-31T11:26:01Z wasamasa: *reasons
2018-03-31T11:26:15Z Franciman: oh, I see
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2018-03-31T11:27:49Z wasamasa: CL has introspection abilities in its standard, this makes things like SLIME far easier to do
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2018-03-31T15:40:03Z wasamasa: hum, last MAL build has my readline function returning a spurious "
2018-03-31T15:40:11Z wasamasa: this happened with cyclone
2018-03-31T15:41:17Z wasamasa: it's as if it has some racyness in read-line
2018-03-31T15:43:25Z wasamasa: http://ix.io/14WH
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2018-03-31T15:43:42Z wasamasa: apparently it's true
2018-03-31T15:43:55Z wasamasa: or maybe it's my call-with-input-string
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