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2018-01-02T10:13:39Z Nemaster861: ▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄ ANOTHER EXPLOIT HAS BEEN FOUND IN WEECHAT ONE THAT SENDS YOUR LOGS TO THE DEVS IP ADDRESS!!aackwh: X-Scale sethalves leppie ▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄

2018-01-02T10:13:44Z Nemaster861: ▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄ ANOTHER EXPLOIT HAS BEEN FOUND IN WEECHAT ONE THAT SENDS YOUR LOGS TO THE DEVS IP ADDRESS!!yrdzivbqad: joast mlaine bars0 ▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄

2018-01-02T10:13:49Z Nemaster861: ▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄ ANOTHER EXPLOIT HAS BEEN FOUND IN WEECHAT ONE THAT SENDS YOUR LOGS TO THE DEVS IP ADDRESS!!kzlwgr: Kkiro fadein mjl ▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄

2018-01-02T10:13:52Z notzmv: very nice
2018-01-02T10:13:55Z Nemaster861: ▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄ ANOTHER EXPLOIT HAS BEEN FOUND IN WEECHAT ONE THAT SENDS YOUR LOGS TO THE DEVS IP ADDRESS!!czwim: dmiles jrslepak joast ▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄

2018-01-02T10:14:03Z notzmv: Riastradh: spam bot back
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2018-01-02T10:18:59Z wasamasa: you should /invite Sigyn #scheme
2018-01-02T10:19:08Z amz3: what do you think? is worth it?
2018-01-02T10:19:11Z amz3: sorry
2018-01-02T10:19:27Z wasamasa: definitely, it's nice to see the spammers k-lined :>
2018-01-02T10:20:04Z amz3: =)
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2018-01-02T11:10:56Z aeth: The spam bot is evolving. I guess to try to foil pattern matching.
2018-01-02T11:11:58Z aeth: (My proposed very lazy detection method of lines beginning with ▄ still works, though.)
2018-01-02T11:12:00Z jackdaniel: somebody really dislikes weechat it seems (boosting its bad reputation that way)
2018-01-02T11:12:16Z aeth: These messages are the fakest fake in the history of fake, though.
2018-01-02T11:12:41Z aeth: Although, *tinfoil hat* maybe the Weechat developers are hiring the spambot so we don't believe the message. :-p
2018-01-02T11:13:24Z jackdaniel: yes, but bad impression is left: somone from weechat community (may be someone excluded from it) is a bad citizen
2018-01-02T11:13:43Z jackdaniel: so I doubt anyone involved in a positive way with the software would do that
2018-01-02T11:17:26Z aeth: Yeah, it's definitely someone who hates weechat. It is increasing awareness of weechat, though, so in a way it might be backfiring.
2018-01-02T11:17:41Z amz3: weechat ftw!
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2018-01-02T11:25:10Z notzmv: :p
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2018-01-02T17:21:16Z qu1j0t3:   aeth | The spam bot is evolving. I guess to try to foil pattern matching.  || Very doubtful that anyone has tried it against the bot, or that the bot is measuring such effects. It's just a spammer who keeps spamming.
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2018-01-02T23:33:31Z antonv: hi, could anyone point me to a scheme exacmple with millions threads?
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2018-01-02T23:34:02Z antonv: I want to show a demo to collegues how cheap threads work, and would like to fine a ready to use example
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2018-01-02T23:34:09Z Riastradh: (let loop () (thread-start! (make-thread loop)) (loop))
2018-01-02T23:34:23Z Riastradh: Oh, you probably want an example that does something useful, I guess.
2018-01-02T23:34:37Z antonv: Riastradh: thanks, not really usefull, but visible
2018-01-02T23:35:05Z antonv: so that the threads manifest themselves somehow and we see there are millions of them
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2018-01-03T18:37:55Z jcowan: I have some ideas about providing an equivalent to extensible lexical syntax in a portable way: anyone want to discuss it?
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2018-01-03T18:51:36Z gwatt: jcowan: shoot
2018-01-03T18:52:55Z jcowan: the idea is that things like srfi-10 and srfi-108/109 require changing the behavior of `read`, which is in many Schemes a rather complex and rigid piece of code
2018-01-03T18:53:08Z jcowan: It is not practical to get everyonee to convert to CL-style readtables.
2018-01-03T18:54:01Z jcowan: So my idea is to introduce a new idea, the "lexical macro expander", which is like SRFI 10 but doesn't have any new syntax.
2018-01-03T18:55:00Z jcowan: The procedure `lexical-expand` accepts an S-expression, looks recursively for lists whose car is a symbol that is mapped to a function, and then apply that function to the cdr of such a list
2018-01-03T18:55:24Z jcowan: so for example if .+ is mapped to +, then expand will convert (* 3 4 (.+ 3 4)) to (* 3 4 7)
2018-01-03T18:55:29Z jcowan: the leading dot is just a convention
2018-01-03T18:55:59Z jcowan: then we provide two convenience functions, lexical-read-expand which reads and expands, and lexical-expand-eval which expands and evaluates
2018-01-03T18:56:58Z jcowan: so by invoking l-r-e instead of read you allow things like (http-open (.url "http://www.example.com")) where .url maps a string argument into an internal url object
2018-01-03T18:57:14Z jcowan: or you can have (.set 1 2 3 'a 'b 'c) which expands to a SRFI 113 set
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2018-01-03T18:58:34Z gwatt: this sounds like it does a fair bit of work at read time
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2018-01-03T18:59:41Z jcowan: yes, but it's parameterized, and you don't have to change `read` at all; it reads an s-expression, converts it to an s-expression with a literal url or set object in it, and then that can be evaluated or not
2018-01-03T19:00:02Z jcowan: this assumes that when you pass eval a set, you get back the same set
2018-01-03T19:00:34Z gwatt: Why would I use this over a macro?
2018-01-03T19:01:16Z jcowan: because macros don't work when reading data
2018-01-03T19:02:05Z jcowan: so as things stand only strings, conses, numbers, vectors, bytevectors can be serialized, but this allows in principle any kind of object to be serialized
2018-01-03T19:02:50Z gwatt: well, that would certainly be nice for hashtables
2018-01-03T19:03:00Z jcowan: e.g. in CL you can serialize an arbitrary structure using #S(...), but Scheme has no equivalent
2018-01-03T19:04:10Z gwatt: I know chezscheme has this a sytnax for serializing records
2018-01-03T19:04:16Z jcowan: yes
2018-01-03T19:04:33Z akkad: object->u8vector in many
2018-01-03T19:04:35Z jcowan: persuading other Schemes to adopt it would be hard, as they don't necessarily provide introspection
2018-01-03T19:04:56Z jcowan: akkad: That works if none of the elements in the object are transient
2018-01-03T19:05:21Z akkad: ahh. what would be an example of that?
2018-01-03T19:05:26Z akkad: non-lexical scoped vars?
2018-01-03T19:06:44Z jcowan: a simple case would be an object representing an image with two fields, an URL and a bitmap
2018-01-03T19:06:58Z jcowan: serializing the url but not the bitmap would make sense
2018-01-03T19:07:14Z gwatt: jcowan: I think I like the idea, but I'd rather see it incorporated into "read".
2018-01-03T19:07:43Z jcowan: I just think it would be hard to get that adopted, and a portable implementation would be hard
2018-01-03T19:08:17Z jcowan: srfi 108/109 does not have a portable implementation for this very reason, because it has to be incorporated into the local `read` with whatever extensions it may have
2018-01-03T19:08:24Z gwatt: I think convincing impls to adopt is the bigges thing, but I think portability is relatively simple
2018-01-03T19:09:06Z jcowan: if portability is available (as it is here) then adoption is easy
2018-01-03T19:09:10Z gwatt: The current "reads" would become "read-without-expand" (or something) and your lexical-read-expand would become read
2018-01-03T19:10:17Z jcowan: it would cost nothing to change all calls to read to l-r-e (using library features "except" and "only"), since it's unlikely that anything of the form (.foo ...) is already present
2018-01-03T19:10:53Z jcowan: in addition, when in standalone use the symbol->procedure map can be an argument which defaults to a process-wide map
2018-01-03T19:17:05Z gwatt: well, I meant for (load ...) or (include ...) or others
2018-01-03T19:18:16Z gwatt: I wouldn't want to go around typing (lexical-read-expand ...) for everything I wanted to do
2018-01-03T19:19:07Z gwatt: otherwise I don't see the advantage over just calling the function that deserializes that s-expression
2018-01-03T19:19:13Z jcowan: right, that's why we have libraries
2018-01-03T19:19:38Z jcowan: so that load and include and eval and read Just Work because they are layered on top of the base versions
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2018-01-05T13:58:31Z foof: ecraven: (eqv? #\xe4 #\ä) => #t
2018-01-05T13:58:51Z foof: U+00E4 is "LATIN SMALL LETTER A WITH DIAERESIS"
2018-01-05T14:03:17Z foof: you can check (string->utf8 "ä") to see that the first octet is in fact c3
2018-01-05T14:04:01Z foof: so even without the advanced repl, chibi is fully unicode compliant
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2018-01-07T04:28:09Z gosslausd: ▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄ LRH IS LIVE NOW!! TODAYS EDITION SLIMER GETS FUCKED IN VEGAS!! https://www.youtube.com/user/l0de/live CALL 315-505-4666 mzvwylck: ArneBab_ C_Keen pie__ ▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄
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2018-01-07T18:00:07Z lolman: hello, I'm trying to emulate records in scheme: http://lpaste.net/361441  Is this the idiomatic way to do this? Is there a less verbose way?
2018-01-07T18:01:23Z gwatt: lolman: you probably want to look at records
2018-01-07T18:02:25Z wasamasa: this kind of emulation fails one of the subtler points of records, defining a new and distinct type
2018-01-07T18:03:02Z wasamasa: ideally you'd want to use a scheme implementing records
2018-01-07T18:03:28Z lolman: hm, I'm trying to use only R5RS scheme for portability
2018-01-07T18:03:42Z wasamasa: you're in for a world of pain
2018-01-07T18:04:03Z wasamasa: better use r7rs-small for portability :>
2018-01-07T18:04:19Z amz3: +1
2018-01-07T18:05:50Z lolman: how is it better? most scheme implementations I've seen implement R5RS and then some various other random stuff on top
2018-01-07T18:06:57Z wasamasa: it defines records, modules and extends the standard library by commonly used stuff
2018-01-07T18:08:11Z wasamasa: like cond-expand, a feature you will need to paper over implementation differences
2018-01-07T18:08:36Z jcowan: lolman: R7RS support is slowly growing
2018-01-07T18:08:42Z gwatt: you could also find an implementation of srfi 9 or 99 for your scheme
2018-01-07T18:08:44Z gwatt: https://srfi.schemers.org/srfi-9/srfi-9.html
2018-01-07T18:08:56Z wasamasa: see https://github.com/kanaka/mal/tree/master/scheme/ for an example
2018-01-07T18:09:56Z jcowan: I myself use a style in which files named foo-impl.scm are just definitions in R5RS style, and then there is a library file for R7RS and another for Chicken (because it's my main development environment).
2018-01-07T18:10:22Z jcowan: I also include an r7rs-shim file to provide missing r7rs runtime features for r5rs environments
2018-01-07T18:10:32Z wasamasa: the above runs on seven r7rs implementations
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2018-01-07T18:15:50Z lolman: nice, Thanks guys. I'll go for R7RS then.
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2018-01-07T20:02:48Z lolman: how do I use modules correctly in r7rs? gauche seems to work, chibi only works if the file extension is ".sld" and chicken does not work at all.
2018-01-07T20:03:34Z lolman: I have two files, one does (import (a)) and the other does (define-library (a) ...) in the same directory
2018-01-07T20:03:49Z wasamasa: look at my repo for that
2018-01-07T20:04:10Z wasamasa: r7rs intentionally omitted how to look up modules and left it to every implementations
2018-01-07T20:04:26Z wasamasa: in the case of CHICKEN, you must compile the modules
2018-01-07T20:04:53Z lolman: oh, thats why
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2018-01-07T20:05:12Z lolman: and chibi only works with .sld extensions? That seems bad
2018-01-07T20:05:34Z C_Keen: in chicken you can also load the code but you need to import the module then
2018-01-07T20:05:39Z wasamasa: writing portable scheme code is an exercise in masochism
2018-01-07T20:05:55Z wasamasa: I managed doing it with a makefile, loads of symlinks and a runner script
2018-01-07T20:06:50Z lolman: ah, so there is no conventional way to do this sort of thing.
2018-01-07T20:07:09Z lolman: Thats fine I guess, I'll hack around it. Thanks!
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2018-01-07T22:11:23Z jcowan: wasamasa, lolman: technically you need not compile the module:  "csc -J -P foo.scm" is sufficient
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2018-01-08T11:37:14Z joe9: Is there a dialect of scheme that integrates the use of type-predicates into function definitions?
2018-01-08T11:39:51Z ecraven: there are a few generic function systems that do something like that, I think
2018-01-08T11:40:06Z ecraven: generic dispatch based on predicates, that is
2018-01-08T11:40:59Z joe9: ok, Thanks.
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2018-01-08T14:47:43Z gwatt: joe9: do you want multiple dispatch or just value checking?
2018-01-08T14:54:10Z joe9: gwatt: both, actually. value checking comes from the predicate, correct? I want to build up on it with multiple dispatch.
2018-01-08T14:54:30Z gwatt: aj
2018-01-08T14:54:32Z gwatt: ah*
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2018-01-08T22:20:19Z rudybot: la la la
2018-01-08T22:20:29Z duncanm: hello hello
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2018-01-09T01:04:29Z schnozzle: I wonder why implementations like MIT Scheme are skipping R6RS and implementing R7.
2018-01-09T01:06:15Z aeth: r7rs is a small, simple extension over r5rs
2018-01-09T01:06:20Z kandinski: because R6RS was a contentious, huge "take it or leave" spec, while R7RS is a consensus spec broken down into a small language in the spirit of R5RS and a big language with the ambitious scope of R6RS
2018-01-09T01:06:25Z aeth: r6rs is large and essentially an evolutionary dead end
2018-01-09T01:06:39Z kandinski: what aeth said
2018-01-09T01:07:36Z aeth: If you have an existing r5rs, r7rs is easy. If you're implementing a new Scheme, implementing r7rs gives you r5rs.
2018-01-09T01:07:54Z aeth: Literally. There's r5rs compatibility mandated in iirc
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2018-01-09T01:16:26Z schnozzle: I should have guessed that, since some Stanford prof implemented a single-file +header embeddable Scheme that he says implments r5 and some of r7 with no runtime reqs.
2018-01-09T01:16:44Z schnozzle: I think it's called s7
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2018-01-09T01:39:40Z aeth: TCO, continuations, and hygienic macros are the hard part afaik
2018-01-09T01:39:48Z aeth: Otherwise it's a very simple language to implement
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2018-01-09T06:49:20Z wasamasa: didn't stop people from writing papers how r7rs could be implemented on top of r6rs :P
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2018-01-09T07:11:32Z ecraven: is there anything remotely resembling consensus on a basic socket interface between Schemes? how widespread is SRFI 106, for example?
2018-01-09T07:19:30Z Fare: ecraven, the general answer to this type of questions is "no"
2018-01-09T07:19:41Z wasamasa: is there any implementation of it beyond the one the author made?
2018-01-09T07:20:25Z wasamasa: I mean, in sagittarius
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2018-01-09T07:21:45Z ecraven: no idea, I'm just working on one in chez, and if possible I'd like to keep to any standard interface there already is...
2018-01-09T07:22:21Z Fare: a somewhat portable ffi would go a long way towards allowing such things to be portably done.
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2018-01-09T07:26:44Z ecraven: Fare: indeed, but I'm not hoping for that. so the next best thing would at least be a portable interface / API
2018-01-09T07:27:13Z ecraven: and something higher-level than the C socket interface would be nice ;)
2018-01-09T07:27:40Z Fare: Portability was hell enough in Common Lisp. In Scheme, it's mostly a non-starter.
2018-01-09T07:28:14Z Fare: ecraven: well there's Racket/Chez... they must have Racket's interface.
2018-01-09T07:28:25Z ecraven: well, I'm hoping for r7rs-large to somewhat change that
2018-01-09T07:28:31Z Fare: gerbil is good for networking
2018-01-09T07:28:43Z Fare: after all, it's vyzo's main application.
2018-01-09T07:29:04Z Fare: ecraven, I believe you have illusions about r7rs-large.
2018-01-09T07:29:21Z wasamasa: r7rs-large is a best effort thing
2018-01-09T07:29:29Z Fare: By the time it's adopted by implementations (if ever) it'll probably obsolete already
2018-01-09T07:29:46Z ecraven: I'd at least expect r7rs-large to specify *some* interface for sockets.. whether anyone actually implements it, is another question
2018-01-09T07:29:48Z wasamasa: feel free to implement as many SRFIs as you want
2018-01-09T07:30:19Z Fare: I admit I find most srfi's quite unsatisfactory, and they don't play very well together.
2018-01-09T07:30:40Z Fare: ecraven, I believe such things are in the roadmap of r7rs
2018-01-09T07:31:11Z ecraven: Fare: to me, r7rs-large is a first step on the road ;)
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2018-01-09T07:32:11Z Fare: more like the 9th step offroad.
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2018-01-09T07:59:13Z vyzo: I'd like to think of r7rs-large as an effort to build Common Scheme
2018-01-09T07:59:22Z vyzo: re: sockets -- you have plenty of options in Gerbil
2018-01-09T07:59:43Z vyzo: ports, nonblocking socket devices, scheduled socket devices (synchronous), and you can even use epoll for userland scheduler
2018-01-09T08:15:56Z wasamasa: is there something like a repository of SRFIs for offline reference?
2018-01-09T08:17:38Z wasamasa: ah, of course there is
2018-01-09T08:17:39Z wasamasa: "Every SRFI is hosted on Github, but if you'd like a complete archive of all SRFI documents and code, please download srfi.tgz."
2018-01-09T08:17:53Z wasamasa: this sentence betrays the overall look and feel of the website
2018-01-09T08:18:24Z wasamasa: so do the fetched network resources, what does it possibly need mathjax from cloudflare from?
2018-01-09T08:25:54Z ecraven: vyzo: is the interface that gerbil uses based on any other Scheme, or just whatever seemed best to you?
2018-01-09T08:27:45Z wasamasa checks gerbil PKGBUILD again
2018-01-09T08:28:10Z wasamasa: it still lives in /opt :<
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2018-01-09T08:31:20Z ecraven: that's probably my fault, is that still my PKGBUILD
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2018-01-09T08:31:36Z ecraven: where should it live?
2018-01-09T08:34:27Z wasamasa: spread across /usr, /lib and /bin
2018-01-09T08:34:37Z wasamasa: you know, the UNIX way
2018-01-09T08:34:38Z ecraven: I'll see what I can do
2018-01-09T08:34:47Z ecraven: when I wrote that PKGBUILD, there was no make install
2018-01-09T08:34:49Z ecraven: maybe there is now
2018-01-09T08:35:10Z wasamasa: the README doesn't suggest there is
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2018-01-09T08:45:06Z vyzo: ecrevan: the socket interface is what suited me
2018-01-09T08:45:24Z vyzo: but the socket interface has been developed over the years
2018-01-09T08:45:37Z vyzo: first version was mzsocket for plt back in the ancient ages of 2007
2018-01-09T08:45:48Z vyzo: but yeah, no PKGBUILD
2018-01-09T08:46:12Z vyzo: I would eagerly accept a patch for this though!
2018-01-09T08:54:49Z wasamasa: I was referring to the PKGBUILD ecraven wrote
2018-01-09T08:55:52Z vyzo: ah ok
2018-01-09T08:56:03Z vyzo: so you want to split into multiple directories?
2018-01-09T08:56:19Z vyzo: I really prefer it to live in /opt/gerbil or /usr/local/gerbil in one piece
2018-01-09T08:56:26Z wasamasa: yeah, much like every other program on my machine :>
2018-01-09T08:56:35Z vyzo: but it should still work if you split it, just the meaning of GERBIL_HOME becomes conflated
2018-01-09T08:56:38Z ecraven: vyzo: from a very cursory glance, it looks like a nice interface ;) I'll investigate, thanks!
2018-01-09T08:57:17Z vyzo: check the proxies tutorial: https://github.com/vyzo/gerbil/blob/master/doc/tutorial/proxy.md
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2018-01-09T08:57:41Z vyzo: code: https://github.com/vyzo/gerbil/tree/master/src/tutorial/proxy
2018-01-09T08:58:48Z wasamasa: damn, 160 srfis
2018-01-09T09:02:03Z vyzo: wasama: for a simple experiment, after build you can put the contents of GERBIL_HOME/bin to /usr/bin (or /usr/local/bin) and GERBIL_HOME/lib to /usr/lib
2018-01-09T09:02:14Z vyzo: the only thing you need to be careful with is that they should be in the same top directory
2018-01-09T09:02:22Z vyzo: so that there is a GERBIL_HOME :p
2018-01-09T09:02:42Z vyzo: with splitting in /usr it should work with GERBIL_HOME=/usr
2018-01-09T09:03:19Z vyzo: and that could be the basis of a make file
2018-01-09T09:03:27Z vyzo: run build.sh for the make step
2018-01-09T09:03:31Z vyzo: and then do the Make install
2018-01-09T09:03:51Z vyzo: we also need a configure step for setting the installation target
2018-01-09T09:04:10Z vyzo: or maybe we can write a simple install.sh script that takes a target dir as an argument and does the installation by rsyncing over the files
2018-01-09T09:04:26Z vyzo: wasamasa: ^^^
2018-01-09T09:05:21Z wasamasa: that top-level is the same as PREFIX, no?
2018-01-09T09:05:26Z vyzo: yes
2018-01-09T09:05:32Z vyzo: GERBIL_HOME maps to PREFIX
2018-01-09T09:05:43Z wasamasa: you typically set PREFIX to /usr, then install binaries to PREFIX/bin and libraries to PREFIX/lib
2018-01-09T09:05:55Z vyzo: right, GERBIL_HOME is setup like /usr a bit
2018-01-09T09:06:01Z vyzo: only bin and lib are used currently
2018-01-09T09:06:07Z vyzo: we'll have some more stuff though in the future
2018-01-09T09:06:10Z vyzo: like documentation
2018-01-09T09:06:20Z vyzo: so these things would need to go to proper directories too
2018-01-09T09:06:23Z wasamasa: yeah, that doesn't have an universally agreed upon place
2018-01-09T09:06:44Z ecraven:  /usr/share/docs?
2018-01-09T09:06:55Z vyzo: or is it just /usr/share/doc?
2018-01-09T09:07:21Z vyzo: ah we have etc that has gerbil.el
2018-01-09T09:07:26Z wasamasa: /usr/share/doc is a thing, but so is /usr/share/<program/...
2018-01-09T09:07:33Z vyzo: that could map to share/site-lisp
2018-01-09T09:08:01Z vyzo: I think we can simply make the install script more intelligent though
2018-01-09T09:08:14Z wasamasa: like, /usr/share/emacs/site-lisp?
2018-01-09T09:08:23Z vyzo: yeah, that should be home of gerbil.el
2018-01-09T09:08:31Z vyzo: I can move etc to share/emacs/site-lisp
2018-01-09T09:08:43Z vyzo: or the install script can put it there
2018-01-09T09:09:03Z vyzo: the tricky point is that the runtime will need to be able to find things like documentation in the future
2018-01-09T09:09:06Z wasamasa: man 7 hier
2018-01-09T09:09:16Z vyzo: ah!
2018-01-09T09:09:18Z vyzo: that's a nice manpage
2018-01-09T09:09:19Z vyzo: thanks
2018-01-09T09:09:45Z wasamasa: it's somewhat obsolete thanks to systemd
2018-01-09T09:09:52Z ecraven: X11R6? :P
2018-01-09T09:10:08Z vyzo: I am on gentoo and fanatically hate on systemd
2018-01-09T09:10:26Z wasamasa: like, they introduced /run
2018-01-09T09:11:55Z vyzo: also another point
2018-01-09T09:12:05Z vyzo: the lib dir contains some naked .scm files and a static subdir
2018-01-09T09:12:13Z vyzo: do we want these things polluting /usr/lib?
2018-01-09T09:12:37Z vyzo: they are necessary for operation though
2018-01-09T09:12:59Z ecraven: couldn't they move to PREFIX/lib/gerbil?
2018-01-09T09:13:07Z wasamasa: this isn't that uncommon actually, I spot a tkConfig.sh in mine
2018-01-09T09:13:13Z wasamasa: but prefixing is encouraged
2018-01-09T09:13:13Z ecraven: if you install everything in one place, that extra directory doesn't matter much
2018-01-09T09:13:30Z vyzo: ecraven: that would take quite a few changes in places I don't want to change right now
2018-01-09T09:13:38Z vyzo: I'll have to think about it
2018-01-09T09:13:52Z vyzo: it's a subtle change
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2018-01-09T10:47:10Z fernando-basso: I need help with this: https://gitlab.com/snippets/1692274
2018-01-09T10:47:19Z fernando-basso: I get a "call of non-procedure #t".
2018-01-09T10:54:16Z manumanumanu: fernando-basso: you are missing an if
2018-01-09T10:54:20Z manumanumanu: line 5
2018-01-09T10:54:35Z manumanumanu: sorry, a cond. line 3
2018-01-09T10:55:34Z fernando-basso: Ah, my intention was to use cond, then yeah! Thanks manumanumanu.
2018-01-09T10:55:42Z manumanumanu: np.
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2018-01-17T21:27:15Z names: askatasuna tmc danly PyroLagus cjh` jyc mjl fowlduck cmatei ericmathison LeoNerd kwmiebach SirDayBat niklasl mbakke manumanumanu zacts yosafbridge kjak XTL dan64- ertes DerGuteMoritz snw `micro cromachina carc averell jim ohama lloda kori sethalves peterhil Blkt eagleflo ssake joe9 stux16777216Away h11 ArthurAGleckler[ happy_gnu[m] Kooda plll[m] willghatch[m] M-krsiehl stux|work Riviera- pchrist DeeEff fiddlerwoaroof_ m1dnight_ Ober abbe lpsmith
2018-01-17T21:27:15Z names: profan defanor stephe fadein aeth dpk bmansurov Kryo gf3 C-Keen dsp_ kilimanjaro sbauman gnomon cibs jrslepak mlaine z0d ijp weltung tessier cross ByronJohnson amoe amz3 Greasy-Gappers joast mrm kandinski mfiano ggherdov terrorjack samth rjungemann ec peschkaj physpi micmus hook54321a greghendershott evhan fernando-basso copec ecraven davexunit aoh cky rotty em eMBee catern Hijiri fizzie jackdaniel clog rudybot kjeldahl jrdnull foof larsen gko tokik
2018-01-17T21:27:15Z names: alphor GGMethos nikivi stamourv benaiah
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2018-01-18T22:01:17Z ecraven: does anyone here know of a Scheme that supports updating class definitions (like CLOS does) at runtime?
2018-01-18T22:01:34Z daviid: ecraven: guile
2018-01-18T22:01:51Z amz3: #win
2018-01-18T22:02:21Z jcowan_: classes are eeee-vil
2018-01-18T22:02:41Z ecraven: jcowan_: indeed, but updating running systems is a relevant feature ;)
2018-01-18T22:02:56Z Riastradh: You could just turn it off and back on again!
2018-01-18T22:03:12Z ecraven: update-instance-for-redefined-class (and the fact that you *can* actually DEFCLASS an existing class and instances still work) is interesting
2018-01-18T22:03:22Z ecraven: Riastradh: sometimes startup times prevent that from being a viable solution
2018-01-18T22:03:41Z ecraven: also, why should I have to? the system is running fine, why can I not redefine some things and expect it to continue running?
2018-01-18T22:03:44Z jcowan_: If you really need continuous operation, you have to have your program running on multiple machines anyway, so you can roll them over one at a time.
2018-01-18T22:03:51Z ecraven: smalltalk can do it, CLOS can, erlang probably too
2018-01-18T22:04:59Z jcowan_: erlang limits you to at most two versions of a module running at any time
2018-01-18T22:05:42Z jcowan_: However, this is discouraged in favor of what I outlined above
2018-01-18T22:09:42Z jcowan_: modern smalltalks have to run a major gc to do so
2018-01-18T22:10:08Z jcowan_: So a more interesting thing IMO would be hot swappable R6/R7 libraries
2018-01-18T22:11:01Z jcowan_: the nasty bit arises when you are trying to swap out a module containing code that is in the current (or a captured) continuation
2018-01-18T22:13:00Z jcowan_: I think that would have to continue to execute the old code
2018-01-18T22:13:19Z elly: you would have a hard time unloading the old library for sure
2018-01-18T22:14:02Z jcowan_: I should think the gc would be able to do it
2018-01-18T22:14:48Z jcowan_: of course an implementation with hot swapping would have to be designed for that from the ground up, most likely
2018-01-18T22:17:16Z elly: on the other hand, imagine if the library pulls in a C library
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2018-01-18T22:45:36Z gwatt: I wonder if abusing shared libraries is a way to allow hot-reloadable libraries
2018-01-18T22:46:19Z gwatt: probably easier to write your own (un)loading code
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2018-01-18T22:50:35Z elly: yeah, indeed
2018-01-18T22:50:50Z elly: it might be easier to write a DSL that it's easy to reload programs written in :P
2018-01-18T22:52:57Z gwatt: I think the big problem is dependencies
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2018-01-18T23:51:07Z aeth: I need to rewrite the Common Lisp part of cl-scheme and finish its continuations and macros so I can publish it.
2018-01-18T23:51:45Z aeth: It would probably take a lot of work to get a usable clffi that can handle the full CLOS, though.
2018-01-18T23:53:23Z aeth: Also, my current design approach is to not allow the global environment to be updated at runtime. Then the global environment can just be a CL let enclosing all of the Scheme definitions.
2018-01-18T23:55:18Z aeth: e.g.. (let ((|foo| ...) (|bar| ...)) ...) and now you get a case-sensitive, lower-case-preferring Lisp-1 with a portable-across-CLs, "global" lexical environment
2018-01-18T23:56:00Z aeth: The REPL could complicate this, though.
2018-01-19T00:01:41Z aeth: The #1 interoperability problem with something like a clffi would probably be that the Scheme boolean is really t and :false (or some other keyword, if I add keyword support to cl-scheme) and not CL's boolean type.
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2018-01-19T00:03:50Z aeth: Any CLOS method that looks for the class NULL that treats NULL as false is going to break because the Scheme user will be using #f (internally a keyword)
2018-01-19T00:06:07Z aeth: Literally everything dealing with booleans has to be wrapped, and the only real alternative would be to complicate conses/lists.
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2018-01-19T08:51:37Z vyzo: you can try the Guile solution
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2018-01-19T13:27:36Z pflanze: I'm looking for a macro tutorial for procedural macros. Preferably using Scheme, but Common Lisp could be OK, too.
2018-01-19T13:28:10Z ecraven: pflanze: have you read on lisp (paul graham) or let over lambda?
2018-01-19T13:28:19Z ecraven: both deal with macros extensively, both in CL
2018-01-19T13:28:37Z pflanze: It's for someone else, and on lisp would be too long for not being in Scheme.
2018-01-19T13:28:41Z ecraven: both do things that most Scheme systems would probably frown upon a bit
2018-01-19T13:28:53Z pflanze: Checking up on let over lambda.
2018-01-19T13:29:13Z ecraven: by doug hoyte, https://letoverlambda.com/
2018-01-19T13:31:32Z ecraven: there are a few open chapters for download
2018-01-19T13:36:57Z pjb: pflanze: have a look at Casting Spels in Lisp  Conrad Barski, M.D.  http://www.lisperati.com/casting.html
2018-01-19T13:39:51Z pflanze: Thanks for the tips. I just realized that Clojure would be a good place to look, too, as it uses procedural macros and is at least 1-namespace like Scheme.
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2018-01-20T01:52:05Z amz3: what is the inverse operation filter ?
2018-01-20T01:52:21Z amz3: keep every element that doesn't match the predicate?
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2018-01-20T01:58:21Z pjb: remove-if and remove-if-not (in CL).
2018-01-20T01:58:53Z pjb: (define (complement f) (lambda (x) (not (f x))))   (filter (complement predicate?) list)
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2018-01-20T14:20:10Z ecraven: I've defined non to be complement, so (filter (non even?) numbers)
2018-01-20T14:20:41Z ecraven: we should start using full unicode symbols more! ¬
2018-01-20T14:20:41Z amz3: ecraven: tx, it very nice thisway
2018-01-20T14:21:24Z amz3: I end up using 'values', because the value I want to filter is #f
2018-01-20T14:21:48Z wasamasa: why not (filter identity ...)
2018-01-20T14:22:11Z wasamasa: with identity being (lambda x x) or something along the lines
2018-01-20T14:22:40Z amz3: identity is more clear, but I was recommended by mark weaver to use values instead of identity in those kind of cases (using guile)
2018-01-20T14:22:41Z elly: values is the identity already
2018-01-20T14:22:54Z elly: and has special handling in many compilers
2018-01-20T14:23:11Z wasamasa: (define identity values)
2018-01-20T14:23:12Z elly: (although, any optimizer worth its salt can optimize (lambda x x) into values as well :P)
2018-01-20T14:23:37Z amz3: usually, I prefer clariy over performance
2018-01-20T14:23:45Z amz3: clarity
2018-01-20T14:24:03Z elly: (let ((identity values)) (filter identity ...)) seems nice to me, then
2018-01-20T14:24:09Z elly: it makes it clear what your intent is
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2018-01-20T14:52:55Z ski: rudybot: eval ((lambda x x) 0 1 2)
2018-01-20T14:53:06Z rudybot: ski: error: with-limit: out of time
2018-01-20T14:53:16Z ski: hrpmf
2018-01-20T14:53:19Z ski: rudybot: eval ((lambda x x) 0 1 2)
2018-01-20T14:53:32Z rudybot: ski: error: with-limit: out of time
2018-01-20T14:53:38Z ski: ok, you don't want to play. fine
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2018-01-20T17:16:28Z elly: rudybot: init
2018-01-20T17:16:33Z elly: rudybot: init scheme
2018-01-20T17:16:38Z rudybot: elly: error: with-limit: out of time
2018-01-20T17:16:42Z elly: I forget how to tlk to the bot :P
2018-01-20T17:16:49Z rudybot: elly: error: with-limit: out of time
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2018-01-20T17:32:06Z gwatt: rudybot:
2018-01-20T17:32:15Z gwatt: rudybot: 1
2018-01-20T17:32:21Z rudybot: gwatt: your sandbox is ready
2018-01-20T17:32:21Z rudybot: gwatt: ; Value: 1
2018-01-20T17:32:21Z gwatt: rudybot: eval
2018-01-20T17:32:26Z gwatt: rudybot: eval (+ 1 2)
2018-01-20T17:32:34Z rudybot: gwatt: error: text-from-word: Bad code, I have a bug -- got: ()
2018-01-20T17:32:34Z rudybot: gwatt: ; Value: 3
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2018-01-20T17:43:46Z vyzo: what scheme is it running?
2018-01-20T17:43:49Z vyzo: the bot I mean
2018-01-20T17:48:33Z ski: Racket, iirc
2018-01-20T17:49:51Z vyzo: thx
2018-01-20T18:01:20Z elly: rudybot: (version)
2018-01-20T18:01:24Z elly: erm
2018-01-20T18:01:26Z rudybot: elly: your scheme sandbox is ready
2018-01-20T18:01:26Z rudybot: elly: ; Value: "6.9"
2018-01-20T18:01:33Z elly: yeah, it's racket :)
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2018-01-20T18:08:16Z gwatt: rudybot: (system "id")
2018-01-20T18:08:16Z rudybot: gwatt: error: subprocess: `execute' access denied for /bin/sh
2018-01-20T18:15:19Z vyzo: racket is pretty good at sandbox
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2018-01-20T18:19:08Z gwatt: rudybot: (read-string 10000 (car (process "id")))
2018-01-20T18:19:08Z rudybot: gwatt: error: subprocess: `execute' access denied for /bin/sh
2018-01-20T18:19:10Z gwatt: bleh
2018-01-20T18:19:24Z gwatt: damn closed down sandboxes!
2018-01-20T18:19:40Z vyzo: now, i remember having 2-3 crash bugs on plt
2018-01-20T18:19:45Z vyzo: dunno if they still work :)
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2018-01-20T18:23:25Z gwatt: rudybot: (directory-list ".")
2018-01-20T18:23:25Z rudybot: gwatt: error: directory-list: `read' access denied for .
2018-01-20T18:23:51Z vyzo: rudybot: eval (current-custodian)
2018-01-20T18:23:58Z rudybot: vyzo: your sandbox is ready
2018-01-20T18:23:58Z rudybot: vyzo: ; Value: #<custodian>
2018-01-20T18:24:06Z vyzo: that's your enemy gwatt :)
2018-01-20T18:24:26Z gwatt is unfamiliar with racket
2018-01-20T18:24:50Z vyzo: i am unfamiliary with rackets too, but i was deeply familiary with plt scheme :))
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2018-01-20T18:26:54Z gwatt: rudybot: (custodian-shutdown-all (current-custodian))
2018-01-20T18:26:54Z rudybot: gwatt: error: evaluator: terminated (custodian-shutdown)
2018-01-20T18:27:04Z vyzo: lol
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2018-01-21T04:28:00Z loginoob: Hello
2018-01-21T04:28:44Z loginoob: After reading Beating the average article and the The little schemer book, I am loving the language
2018-01-21T04:29:25Z loginoob: Can somome guide me to the path I should take to be better
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2018-01-21T04:45:31Z aeth: write something large
2018-01-21T04:45:45Z aeth: it doesn't matter what it is
2018-01-21T04:46:02Z aeth: (and it doesn't even matter if you finish it)
2018-01-21T04:47:27Z loginoob: aeth: That's the part I cannot figure out. Write something, I cannot think of anything
2018-01-21T04:54:13Z pierpa: perhaps you don't need programming, after all
2018-01-21T04:56:04Z aeth: loginoob: If you just want a lot of programming exercises: https://projecteuler.net/
2018-01-21T04:56:49Z aeth: Be warned, though, that the solutions on Project Euler often require thinking about the problem from a mathematical perspective instead of brute forcing it like on most programming exercise sites.
2018-01-21T04:56:58Z aeth: Also some things become laughably trivial in languages with bignums
2018-01-21T04:59:08Z aeth: The clever solution to Project Euler questions is often 100x faster or more. In the same language.
2018-01-21T04:59:44Z pierpa: Project Euler problems are usually math problems. For easy *programming* problems, advent of code ones are funnier (and past years sets are still avaible)
2018-01-21T05:00:17Z aeth: Yes. It's mostly working on integers as mathemtical objects. If you really enjoyed all of those factorial examples, you'll love it. If you want something more purely programming, you won't.
2018-01-21T05:00:31Z aeth: Expect to have to write a prime sieve to use on some of the questions.
2018-01-21T05:00:46Z aeth: i.e. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sieve_of_Eratosthenes
2018-01-21T05:02:17Z aeth: Some of the problems could really use some concepts that are interesting form a Scheme perspective, though. Like e.g. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Memoization
2018-01-21T05:03:16Z loginoob: pierpa: I don't need programming after all? Why should I learn only if I need it? Can't I learn it because i find these concepts enjoyable
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2018-01-21T05:04:26Z aeth: Personally, I did about 15 project euler problems before I had to make myself stop because I was spending too much time microoptimizing them instead of doing something useful.
2018-01-21T05:05:11Z aeth: But it is basically an inexhaustable set of problems because there are so many
2018-01-21T05:05:24Z aeth: You'll stop far before the end
2018-01-21T05:05:48Z loginoob: I will look into solving project euler problems. And will think of something big to write in scheme
2018-01-21T05:06:02Z loginoob: no matter how absurd that may be
2018-01-21T05:06:16Z loginoob: that thing i think
2018-01-21T05:06:32Z aeth: well I think it seems strange because normally people have tons of ideas, and that's the easy part
2018-01-21T05:06:37Z pierpa: aeth: the forst 100 or so are easy. Not easy beyond those
2018-01-21T05:06:42Z pierpa: *the first, sorry
2018-01-21T05:06:59Z aeth: well, it's sorted by difficulty now
2018-01-21T05:07:16Z aeth: if that's accurate they did add some easier ones later on, e.g. 500
2018-01-21T05:08:03Z aeth: but, yes, most of the later ones are probably too hard for most people
2018-01-21T05:09:55Z pierpa: I solved many of them at a time I was working in a slow office job :)
2018-01-21T05:10:11Z pierpa: around 10 years ago
2018-01-21T05:10:12Z aeth: what language did you use?
2018-01-21T05:10:39Z pierpa: racket
2018-01-21T05:10:54Z aeth: was it even Racket 10 years ago?
2018-01-21T05:11:28Z pierpa: you mean if they had already changed the name?  I don't remember. Probably not
2018-01-21T05:11:50Z aeth: 2010-06-07. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racket_(programming_language)#Rename
2018-01-21T05:12:12Z pierpa: aha!
2018-01-21T05:13:58Z pierpa: uff. I succeded remembering the password! "Solved 132 out of 618 problems"
2018-01-21T05:14:12Z pierpa: I hoped for more :(
2018-01-21T05:34:58Z aeth: "Solved 132 out of 618 problems" is a weak password
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2018-01-21T05:50:26Z pierpa: yeah, but that's not the password!  :)
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2018-01-21T05:58:14Z mrm: actually, that's a pretty good password.
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2018-01-21T06:27:50Z aeth: not anymore
2018-01-21T06:33:23Z X-Scale: There is also an algorithmic version of over 200 (and growing) Project Euler's problems that forces you to have more optimized solutions: https://www.hackerrank.com/contests/projecteuler/challenges
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2018-01-21T07:46:26Z aeth: I force myself to have optimized solutions
2018-01-21T07:48:09Z aeth: How does a third party verify that the solution is optimized?
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2018-01-21T08:06:59Z wasamasa: they generate arbitrarily complex inputs and measure how long your solution takes
2018-01-21T08:07:35Z wasamasa: or create inputs where bruteforcing would take far too long
2018-01-21T08:14:51Z wasamasa: it looks like they run your code on their servers, so only racket, no scheme :<
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2018-01-21T09:05:54Z aeth: wasamasa: the last part is what I suspected
2018-01-21T09:06:03Z aeth: nowhere near as useful then
2018-01-21T09:06:15Z aeth: one of the main uses of Project Euler is to learn a new language
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2018-01-21T09:34:16Z wasamasa: I dunno, I find project euler very one-sided for that
2018-01-21T09:34:30Z wasamasa: I prefer taking a small to medium-sized project and implementing it in the language
2018-01-21T09:34:32Z wasamasa: like, MAL
2018-01-21T09:35:28Z wasamasa: others like implementing IRC bots I've heard
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2018-01-21T09:42:13Z vyzo: wasamasa: only racket, no scheme -- lol
2018-01-21T09:42:33Z vyzo: the racketeers insist that their parentheses are squigglier than ours :)
2018-01-21T09:42:35Z wasamasa: they even have CL there (with SBCL in parentheses)
2018-01-21T09:42:46Z wasamasa: they could do the same with scheme and use chibi
2018-01-21T09:42:47Z vyzo: but it's hard to make an argument that racket is not a Scheme dialect
2018-01-21T09:42:50Z vyzo: it very much is
2018-01-21T09:44:20Z vyzo: speaking of CL, we are planning a pretty extensive compatibility package for Gerbil
2018-01-21T09:44:27Z vyzo: we want to implement all the good parts of the hyperspec
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2018-01-21T09:55:12Z aeth: If it has SBCL, you can at least get good performance out of a Lisp there.
2018-01-21T09:55:54Z aeth: Racket, even updated, probably isn't going to do well in that sort of thing because it's moving to a JIT. Those don't tend to win in performance with tiny programs, afaik.
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2018-01-21T20:05:52Z daviid: anyone knows how to set! a java instance boolean value using kawa? (the kawa channel is empty (almost)
2018-01-21T20:07:37Z gwatt: daviid: like, you have a public member of an object, and want to set it?
2018-01-21T20:08:28Z daviid: gwatt: like this (class) has this variable sc.fiji.localThickness.EDT_S1D:showOptions
2018-01-21T20:08:47Z gwatt: is the variable public?
2018-01-21T20:09:10Z daviid: yes
2018-01-21T20:10:33Z daviid: I defined an alias (in kawa), (define-alias edt-show-options sc.fiji.localThickness.EDT_S1D:showOptions), but this does not raise an exception but it does not seem to work: (set! edt-show-options #f)
2018-01-21T20:11:14Z gwatt: does (set! sc.fiji.localThickness.EDT_S1D:showOptions #f) work?
2018-01-21T20:13:47Z daviid: gwatt: actually this would set it for the class, but what about for an instance?
2018-01-21T20:14:33Z daviid: gwatt: here is the code I'nm trying to 'wrap' in kawa: https://github.com/fiji/LocalThickness/blob/master/src/main/java/sc/fiji/localThickness/EDT_S1D.java
2018-01-21T20:15:16Z daviid: my java knowledge is next to zero, hence my rather ignorant quizz ...
2018-01-21T20:15:27Z gwatt: wouldn't you just have an instance of the class, "foo" and then (set! foo:setOptions #f) ?
2018-01-21T20:15:41Z daviid: ok let me try that
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2018-01-21T20:16:53Z ecraven: daviid: if you want to interface with java, you will have to improve that knowledge, there is no way to use kawa to interface with java if you don't know java
2018-01-21T20:19:12Z daviid: gwatt: perfect, many thanks!
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2018-01-21T22:23:25Z pflanze: I'm looking for a minimal lisp that has an encoding that doesn't require memory allocation to parse.
2018-01-21T22:23:48Z Riastradh: Encoding?
2018-01-21T22:24:13Z pflanze: s-expressions in a form that a C/C++ program can execute directly.
2018-01-21T22:25:25Z pflanze: (Trying to avoid malloc/new for efficiency (those will be tiny programs for IPC and similar, no need for them to be fast, but need to be run immediately) and real time applications.)
2018-01-21T22:26:30Z pflanze: So basically, I'm looking for an s-expression interpreter and, especially, a binary encoding for those s-expressions that works like a byte code without previous processing.
2018-01-21T22:26:49Z pflanze: byte code *that can be run* without previous processing
2018-01-21T22:27:33Z pflanze: It should also be relocatable (not contain absolute memory addresses).
2018-01-21T22:32:17Z pflanze: It should have |quote|, i.e. be able to handle s-expressions as first-class values, which would preferably just use a copy or pointer to the relevant substring in the byte code directly.
2018-01-21T22:33:38Z pflanze: Any ideas welcome, also tell me if interested in the same thing (maybe I'll end up writing it myself).
2018-01-21T22:34:41Z gwatt: what's the use case for this?
2018-01-21T22:35:15Z Riastradh: Is executing the program allowed to allocate memory?
2018-01-21T22:35:25Z wasamasa: clearly pflanze wants someone else to write a byte-code compiler and interpreter for him
2018-01-21T22:35:53Z pflanze: Riastradh, yes, although I expect most operations won't need to, and could use refcounting where needed instead of a gc, also, perhaps just a region during eval then delete that.
2018-01-21T22:37:00Z pflanze: gwatt, I'm thinking of using that to communicate between the UI thread and a Scheme system in a Qt application.
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2018-01-21T22:38:12Z pflanze: i.e. pass programs as messages between the two, and possibly store some of them within the UI thread to run as event handlers.
2018-01-21T22:38:26Z gwatt: can you embed your scheme? i.e., link the scheme into your app and just call out to it from c++?
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2018-01-21T22:39:06Z pflanze: gwatt, I want to avoid that because of the Scheme gc, also, messy with regards to continuations etc.
2018-01-21T22:39:20Z pflanze: I want to avoid the UI thread being dependent on a GC.
2018-01-21T22:40:08Z gwatt: I'm not sure IPC will help that much
2018-01-21T22:40:27Z gwatt: async IO isn't super fun to deal with
2018-01-21T22:40:55Z pflanze: Well, events are always async.
2018-01-21T22:41:47Z gwatt: you mean signals?
2018-01-21T22:42:09Z pflanze: yes
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2018-01-21T22:42:12Z pflanze: (?)
2018-01-21T22:42:37Z pflanze: I know Gtk not Qt, but this is going to be for Qt.
2018-01-21T22:42:53Z gwatt: Qt calls them signals
2018-01-21T22:43:00Z pflanze: k
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2018-01-21T22:44:41Z gwatt: though i'm not sure if the slots execute separately from the gui
2018-01-21T22:45:00Z pflanze: slots?
2018-01-21T22:45:30Z pflanze reading https://doc.qt.io/archives/qt-4.8/signalsandslots.html
2018-01-21T22:45:31Z gwatt: in qt, you have things that emit signals
2018-01-21T22:45:44Z gwatt: like button presses, keyboard events, etc.
2018-01-21T22:46:07Z gwatt: signals are hooked up to slots, which are normal member functions of c++ objects
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2018-01-21T22:47:39Z gwatt: you can connect any number of signals to any number of slots, and the lifecycle is automatically handled
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2018-01-21T22:48:19Z pflanze: My understanding is that Qt runs 1 thread for all UI work (i.e. events would be delivered into that thread, which would then presumably deliver it as a signal to the object(s) that was/were connected to the slot)
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2018-01-21T22:48:56Z gwatt: My understanding is that Qt runs one thread FULL STOP
2018-01-21T22:48:59Z pflanze: Where the IPC comes in when the UI needs to get data from Scheme, or Scheme decides to update the UI.
2018-01-21T22:49:36Z pflanze: Where "Scheme" means the full Scheme system, as opposed to the minimal Lisp, which is used as the encoding on the IPC queue/socket.
2018-01-21T22:50:11Z X-Scale: <wasamasa> it looks like they run your code on their servers, so only racket, no scheme :< <-- I start each Racket solution I submit with "#lang r5rs" and just use good old R5RS scheme
2018-01-21T22:50:29Z wasamasa: X-Scale: you opportunist!
2018-01-21T22:50:32Z X-Scale: :-)
2018-01-21T22:51:47Z pflanze: gwatt, I'm hoping that the minimal lisp would also be suitable to do some stuff directly in the UI thread, i.e. instead of coding it up in C++, or in full Scheme and requiring a IPC round trip.
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2018-01-21T23:05:54Z gwatt: I'm just not convinced there's a benefit to writing a minimal S-expr evaluator in C/C++ to talk to an external scheme system
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2018-01-21T23:14:03Z pflanze: The problems I see with just using the FFI are the following:
2018-01-21T23:14:52Z pflanze: - when calling C++ from Scheme, it could potentially not return for a long time, blocking the Scheme system
2018-01-21T23:16:34Z pflanze:   also, need to be careful as that system is running in another thread.
2018-01-21T23:17:06Z pflanze: - calling Scheme from C++: need to take a mutex or something so that it won't run Scheme from 2 threads at the same time.
2018-01-21T23:17:27Z pflanze:   (also, calling back into C++ from there? not sure if there are messy cases)
2018-01-21T23:17:50Z pflanze: - as soon as you call Scheme from the UI thread, the UI thread will be exposed to GC pauses.
2018-01-21T23:19:21Z pflanze: Anyway, I'll play and see.
2018-01-21T23:20:10Z pflanze: It would just have been cool if someone did it already, and the same requirements I have are also requirements you'll have say on a microcontroller with real time requirements,
2018-01-21T23:20:32Z pflanze: hence someone could have come up with it for such applications already.
2018-01-21T23:20:47Z gwatt: I suspect no-one will be trying to use scheme or lisp or any gc language on a realtime microcontroller
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2018-01-21T23:21:09Z gwatt: almost certainly not to communicate with a Qt program
2018-01-21T23:21:39Z pflanze: Micro controller and Qt are *different* application suggestions
2018-01-21T23:21:53Z gwatt: right, they require different tools
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2018-01-21T23:22:35Z pflanze: A simple lisp that does not use GC but refcounting or regions, and uses a simple "binary s-expr" read-only representation that can be stored in flash, seems to describe what you would want to use on a real time system fine.
2018-01-21T23:23:12Z pflanze: Not so different tools, a proper UI has soft real time requirements.
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2018-01-21T23:43:32Z Riastradh: Sounds like you might be better served by Forth, really.
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2018-01-22T00:32:43Z jonaslund: gwatt: there's that clojure variant
2018-01-22T00:32:57Z jonaslund: ferret
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2018-01-22T00:34:49Z jonaslund: ref-counted though (i think since it's built on immutable principles ref-counting will be fine since you won't introduce cycles)
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2018-01-22T01:11:15Z dieggsy: Is there any notion at all of car/cdr in vectors? A lot of recursion with lists deals with passing the CDR of the list to the next call of the function - what would be the equivalent for vectors?
2018-01-22T01:14:32Z dieggsy: huh, guess i courd just vector-ref, track and index, and see if it's the vector length ?
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2018-01-22T01:19:30Z pierpa: in vectors you either use an index to keep track or your scan position, or a couple of indexes to delimit a subvector, usually.
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2018-01-23T12:14:59Z manumanumanu: So, people, if I have a function that returns two values when successful, how should I return on non-exceptional failure?
2018-01-23T12:15:27Z manumanumanu: Should I return (values #f #f) ?
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2018-01-23T12:37:13Z pjb: manumanumanu: typically, you can add a third value.
2018-01-23T12:37:24Z pjb: (value on success #t) (value #f #f #f)
2018-01-23T12:37:54Z manumanumanu: ah. that's prettier
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2018-01-23T12:38:09Z manumanumanu: pjb: thanks.
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2018-01-23T12:38:19Z pjb: unless it really makes no sense to return #f #f on success.
2018-01-23T12:38:50Z pjb: eg. (truncate 10 3) --> 3 ; 1   (truncate 10 0) --> #f ; #f  could do.
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2018-01-23T12:41:53Z manumanumanu: The procedure will never return #f #f on success. Currently it returns #f #f on failure, but will return two bytevectors on success.
2018-01-23T12:43:20Z pjb: You have the choice.  If you have a lot of procedures returning multiple values, you may want to implement a uniform way to signal failure.  Adding a result for that seems a nice a way.  If you have few such procedure, and they don't normally return #f #f, then it may be a good solution too.
2018-01-23T12:43:33Z pjb: It is better to choose a uniform way to do it.
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2018-01-23T12:50:43Z manumanumanu: got it. I have few procedures that return multiple values that need to signal non-exceptional failure, so I will go with just returning #f #f instead of the regular values
2018-01-23T12:50:53Z manumanumanu: thanks for the input
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2018-01-23T13:20:38Z ecraven: is there a specific reason why the r7rs default library names do not include a version?
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2018-01-23T13:35:16Z manumanumanu: ecraven: were library versions ever used?
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2018-01-23T15:48:57Z rirc_187A: a bunch of scheme implementations seem to allow \22 as an identifier, is that standard in r7rs? it doesen't seem that way to me.
2018-01-23T15:50:53Z pjb: rirc_187A: notice that it is specified in Common Lisp to be read as a symbol.  Perhaps those scheme implementations try to have a compatible reader?
2018-01-23T15:53:07Z pjb: Bottom of page 7 of r7rs.pdf specifies that |22| is an identifier (like in CL).
2018-01-23T15:54:07Z pjb: ANd page 9 specifies that \ is used in the syntax of characters, and identifiers cf. 7.1.1 (and escapes in string constants)
2018-01-23T15:54:30Z rirc_187A: it is used in identifiers, but not like that I think
2018-01-23T15:56:59Z pjb: But indeed, section 7.1.1 page 62 describing the formal syntax for identifier doesn't seem to allow \ as a general escape. It's used for hexadecimal: \xAA and for a few special escapes such as \a \b \t \n \r.   \2 seems to be invalid.
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2018-01-23T15:57:47Z pjb: Notice also that | must suround the identifier. In CL we can write:   Hello| |world   or |HELLO WORLD|   or   hello\ world.  In r7rs, Only |HELLO WORLD| is accepted.d
2018-01-23T15:58:01Z pjb: https://bitbucket.org/cowan/r7rs/src/draft-10/rnrs/r7rs.pdf?fileviewer=file-view-default
2018-01-23T15:58:56Z rirc_187A: hm, well. I suppose every scheme i am trying simply allows \22 inspite of the standard. Thanks for confirming.
2018-01-23T16:01:57Z pjb: rirc_187A: it may be illuminating to see how CL specifies this:  http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/02_b.htm
2018-01-23T16:02:13Z pjb: r7rs uses a formal syntax (BNF), while CL uses an algorithm.
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2018-01-23T16:04:53Z rirc_187A: Interesting, odd way to specify a language. But I guess it makes sense if you have something like reader macros.
2018-01-23T16:05:21Z ecraven: manumanumanu: r6rs has them, I think?
2018-01-23T16:05:55Z ecraven: pjb: the main question is, (scheme basic) *prevents* any later version from defining an updated version.. shouldn't that have been (scheme 7 basic) or something like that?
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2018-01-23T16:35:21Z pjb: ecraven: I don't know, I'm not at this level in r6rs/r7rs…
2018-01-23T16:36:46Z ecraven: jcowan: were explicit versions for r7rs library names ever discussed? like (scheme base 7) or such?
2018-01-23T16:37:38Z jcowan: I don't specifically remember, but I think the fact that no R7RS system does anything except ignore them (AFAIK) was kind of a signal that they were an experiment we shouldn't emulate.
2018-01-23T16:37:54Z jcowan: R7RS-small was designed to be as little experimental as possible.
2018-01-23T16:38:35Z ecraven: wouldn't they just be a part of the name? no special meaning
2018-01-23T16:39:49Z jcowan: Ah, I see.  Well, my immediate reaction to that is "Too ceremonious."  We were asking people to start prefixing their programs with explicit import statements instead of accepting a variable list of ambiently available names, and the less overhead that had, the better.
2018-01-23T16:40:28Z jcowan: At least in R6RS you could leave out the version numbers.
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2018-01-23T17:47:36Z astronavt: which schemes can compile native binaries for multiple platforms?
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2018-01-23T18:05:47Z astronavt: and speaking of comparing ipmlementations, is there anything like http://hyperpolyglot.org/ for the popular scheme implementations? i know there's rosetta code but that site tends to be a mess in my experience
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2018-01-23T18:08:31Z pjb: Well, normally the differences in scheme implementations are not in the scheme itself (eg. if you compare r5rs, they should all implement r5rs).  But rather on the supported SRFI, since some of them require implementation support.  So there's a big table of the SRFIs vs. implementations.
2018-01-23T18:09:22Z astronavt: i assume that table doesn't actually exist anywhere?
2018-01-23T18:11:16Z pjb: https://srfi.schemers.org  Well, once upon a time… Not anynmore: https://www.reddit.com/r/lisp/comments/a53j1/spreadsheet_of_scheme_systems_supporting_srfis/
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2018-01-23T18:12:13Z pjb: Perhaps https://srfi.schemers.org still has the information, you'd have to dive into it.
2018-01-23T18:14:10Z astronavt: it doesnt look like any of them actually retain which schemes implement a given SRFI
2018-01-23T18:14:28Z astronavt: well maybe i can get some guidance this way: i'm looking for a scheme that produces small, native binaries
2018-01-23T18:15:03Z astronavt: i love racket but hello_world.rkt is 300k
2018-01-23T18:15:44Z astronavt: common lisp is bloated, and i don't like clojure startup time (although im aware a Clj->C++ compiler exists for it)
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2018-01-23T18:16:19Z astronavt: really i think i just want something like C with S-expressions and proper macros macros
2018-01-23T18:16:58Z gwatt: quantify "small" for "small, native binaries"
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2018-01-23T18:23:29Z astronavt: gwatt: the Zsh binary is 600K, so i'd hope that i can keep programs under 1 M
2018-01-23T18:23:52Z astronavt: it's not a big deal. more an aesthetic consideration than anything else
2018-01-23T18:24:03Z gwatt: so that 300k seems to fit the bill
2018-01-23T18:24:20Z astronavt: i'm not sure how much is fixed overhead
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2018-01-23T18:25:08Z gwatt: probably a bunch
2018-01-23T18:25:50Z astronavt: actually you know what id like to use scheme for? embedded programming: keyboard drivers, arduino, etc
2018-01-23T18:25:58Z gwatt: armpit scheme
2018-01-23T18:26:00Z astronavt: so anything that goes scheme->c->native would work
2018-01-23T18:26:05Z astronavt: thanks
2018-01-23T18:27:19Z astronavt: gwatt are there any schemes that run on AVR?
2018-01-23T18:27:25Z gwatt: dunno
2018-01-23T18:27:39Z astronavt: cause if it can compile to C, it can run
2018-01-23T18:28:16Z gwatt: I tend to just use C when dealing with arduinos and whatnot
2018-01-23T18:31:16Z astronavt: i just hate C tbh
2018-01-23T18:31:43Z astronavt: macros especially
2018-01-23T18:33:24Z astronavt: i also want an excuse to learn scheme doing something i was going to do anyway
2018-01-23T18:35:55Z jcowan: I was maintaining that table of SRFIs vs. Schemes, but Google Docs seems to have lost it
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2018-01-23T18:36:45Z gwatt: http://churchturing.org/y/90-min-scc.pdf
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2018-01-23T18:39:48Z gwatt: https://github.com/akeep/scheme-to-c
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2018-01-23T18:44:21Z jackdaniel: gwatt: interesting links, thank you
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2018-01-23T18:52:20Z astronavt: gwatt: i forgot about Ferret
2018-01-23T18:52:38Z astronavt: that's the Clojure -> C++ compiler. apparently its intended for embedding
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2018-01-23T19:15:06Z astronavt: ty btw this will be great reading
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2018-01-24T19:06:27Z ecraven: does r6rs not include list-set!, or was it renamed?
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2018-01-24T19:59:50Z gwatt: where list-set! acts like (set-car! (list-tail l) x) ?
2018-01-24T20:01:51Z jcowan_: no, r6rs does not have it; r7rs does
2018-01-24T20:02:13Z jcowan_: extending the API of basic types was not an R6RS objective
2018-01-24T20:02:34Z jcowan_: whereas it was something the R7RS WG explicitly did
2018-01-24T20:02:39Z jcowan_: s/did/chose to do
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2018-01-24T22:43:26Z amz3: mutation >_<
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2018-01-24T23:17:22Z pierpa: :)
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2018-01-27T12:04:34Z ecraven: ;)
2018-01-27T12:11:58Z amz3: I know a code base that mutate list literals in many creative ways... it's very painful since now guile forbids mutating any literal
2018-01-27T12:12:35Z amz3: painful... I have to replace '(foo bar bar) with (list 'foo 'bar 'baz)
2018-01-27T12:12:52Z amz3: I am not sure why the code is written like
2018-01-27T12:13:13Z amz3: is immutability a new thing in scheme or gained popularity recently?
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2018-01-27T13:46:06Z ecraven: I think it always said you should not mutate literals, but many Schemes didn't explicitly check
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2018-01-27T14:00:54Z vyzo: mutating literals has unspecified effect
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2018-01-28T16:23:08Z gingitsune: Hey! I'm trying to setup scheme on windows and i'm not getting any luck
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2018-01-28T16:25:39Z gingitsune: So i've been getting heap allocation errors and --band error on start
2018-01-28T16:26:27Z gingitsune: With some googling I've reached a point where the scheme emacs repl would launch but immediately close
2018-01-28T16:26:34Z gingitsune: Launching like so "C:\Program Files (x86)\MIT-GNU Scheme\bin\mit-scheme.exe" --heap 512 --library "C:\Program Files (x86)\MIT-GNU Scheme\lib" --band "C:\Program Files (x86)\MIT-GNU Scheme\lib\all.com"
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2018-01-28T16:28:50Z gingitsune: Most discussion on this problem say to use racket instead\
2018-01-28T16:29:33Z gingitsune: I got that. And it runs like a charm.  Yet it would be nice if i wouldn't have to make aliases for builints while going through sicp
2018-01-28T16:32:58Z gingitsune: Running windows 10
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2018-01-28T16:36:54Z wasamasa: that's pretty normal for SICP though
2018-01-28T16:37:05Z wasamasa: write them once into the file containing your solutions and run it
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2018-01-28T16:41:04Z gingitsune: Ok, just gonna have to suck it up. Thanks :)
2018-01-28T16:42:01Z wasamasa: I'd also recommend to use a more developer-friendly system
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2018-01-28T16:45:28Z gingitsune: I'd usually use a flavor of linux, yet i cant be bother to put it on this machine as i wont have it for long
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2018-01-28T17:37:33Z ecraven: gingitsune: --heap 512 is way too small
2018-01-28T17:37:40Z ecraven: gingitsune: that's 512 words, I think
2018-01-28T17:37:42Z ecraven: try 51200
2018-01-28T17:37:46Z ecraven: 512000
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2018-01-28T18:57:46Z jcowan_: There is a SICP library for Racket
2018-01-28T18:58:31Z jcowan_: gingitsune: https://docs.racket-lang.org/sicp-manual/index.html
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2018-01-29T07:03:16Z ecraven: foof: is there introspective support in chibi to look at the stack trace and at locals for each frame?
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2018-01-29T09:54:46Z werkin: The first link in the topic is dead.
2018-01-29T09:57:28Z C-Keen: you can use paste.call-cc.org as an alternative if you like
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2018-01-29T10:06:13Z werkin: Thanks.
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2018-01-29T10:37:55Z thevishy: I downloaded the mit-scheme project, is there a good way to understand the source code?
2018-01-29T10:38:20Z thevishy: or am I better off with something like chicken? I just wanted to learn how scheme is implemented
2018-01-29T10:39:45Z jackdaniel: http://churchturing.org/y/90-min-scc.pdf
2018-01-29T10:41:26Z thevishy: thanks jackdaniel
2018-01-29T10:41:44Z thevishy: mit-scheme is a huge project to delve into?
2018-01-29T10:42:04Z jackdaniel: I don't know
2018-01-29T10:42:40Z jackdaniel: if you are interested in concepts about how to implement things in lisp in general Lisp in Small Piecies is a very good book to delve into
2018-01-29T10:43:38Z thevishy: okay jackdaniel thank you
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2018-01-29T11:34:19Z ecraven: thevishy: mit-scheme has rather nice code to read, compared to some other schemes, imho
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2018-01-29T20:49:53Z Dick: Hi, some up-to-date spanish manual to learn Scheme?
2018-01-29T20:50:04Z wasamasa: spanish?
2018-01-29T20:50:15Z Dick: Yeah
2018-01-29T20:50:20Z wasamasa: I'm sorry to break it to you, but the lingua franca in all things computing is english
2018-01-29T20:50:29Z Dick: :/
2018-01-29T20:50:50Z wasamasa: nearly every time you reach for documentation, the reference is going to be in english
2018-01-29T20:53:05Z Dick: I can learn C++ in Spanish through Deitel, why not Scheme
2018-01-29T20:53:55Z wasamasa: because the lisp community is scattered around enough as is
2018-01-29T20:54:57Z wasamasa: there is no economic incentive in translating all the interesting lisp books
2018-01-29T20:55:30Z pjb: What? Spanish changed? There's a new standard for Spanish, and I haven't been informed?
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2018-01-29T20:59:47Z Dick: Then I will have to enter the world of functional programming through Haskell which is available in Spanish. What's a pitty. :/
2018-01-29T21:00:33Z wasamasa: scheme isn't about functional programming at all
2018-01-29T21:01:04Z Dick: Thx for info
2018-01-29T21:01:04Z gwatt: Dick: you could be the one to write Spanish documentation for scheme
2018-01-29T21:01:14Z wasamasa: it would be bound to be outdated
2018-01-29T21:01:34Z Dick: Bye!!
2018-01-29T21:01:38Z pjb: Dick: if you search well, you may find a tutorial or two in Spanish.
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2018-01-30T02:34:07Z wingod: hello ! anyone here ?
2018-01-30T02:36:01Z akkad: nope
2018-01-30T02:36:09Z akkad: irc is hard
2018-01-30T02:38:15Z wingod: hahaha
2018-01-30T02:40:39Z pjb: wingod: type: /who #scheme
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2018-01-30T02:46:01Z daviid: wingo:  #guile bot has a msg for you
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2018-01-30T03:01:26Z daviid: I ment wingod, not wingo :)
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2018-01-30T07:02:39Z mrm: It's more about programming with functions than functional programming.
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2018-01-30T07:37:04Z ecraven: ;)
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2018-01-30T08:26:25Z vyzo: mostly functional programming
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2018-01-30T09:32:00Z manumanumanu: I mostly do dysfunctional programming
2018-01-30T09:32:55Z manumanumanu: Might be a result of 100+-lines of cond-expand hacks to make things work across scheme implementations though.
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2018-01-30T13:53:15Z foof: ecraven: no, though I suppose it would be easy to add
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2018-01-30T17:40:12Z drewc: Ah function programming. Like macros, that term means very different things to very different people, and it seems nobody bothers to define it.
2018-01-30T17:40:26Z drewc: functional*
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2018-01-30T18:46:58Z qu1j0t3: lots of people are willing to define it. but the definitions don't fully agree.
2018-01-30T18:47:34Z gwatt: sounds like scheme impls!
2018-01-30T18:47:55Z qu1j0t3: :)
2018-01-30T18:49:23Z gwatt: One of my coworkers once said something like: "Functional programming is when you have ideas named `Recombinating Monadic Trampoline' and variables named a, b, and c."
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2018-01-30T18:51:47Z amz3: that's sound better than "you can not code a database using a functional language"
2018-01-30T18:52:05Z amz3: "because a fuctional language is immutable"
2018-01-30T18:53:23Z amz3: Something a colleague of mine told me
2018-01-30T18:54:33Z amz3: we don't have the same kind of collegues
2018-01-30T18:55:00Z amz3: even if I consider that person from the above quote, a top developer... YMMV
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2018-01-30T19:05:26Z qu1j0t3: i've heard lots of crazy shit. i just ignore it
2018-01-30T19:07:25Z aeth: amz3: Well that's just plain false.
2018-01-30T19:07:33Z aeth: A *pure* functional language is immutable.
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2018-01-30T19:07:47Z aeth: Mutation is merely discouraged in the rest.
2018-01-30T19:08:10Z pjb: amz3: but you can code a database using functional languages: just return a new dabase each time.
2018-01-30T19:08:24Z pjb: amz3: also, notice that this simplifies a lot transactions and snapshots!
2018-01-30T19:09:18Z pjb: amz3: also, check package distribution systems that do just that, such as Nix: https://nixos.org/nix/
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2018-01-30T19:14:15Z amz3: That's what I told them, that mutation was _discouraged_
2018-01-30T19:15:15Z amz3: also, functional (and I assume purely functional languages too) allow to write/update file on disk
2018-01-30T19:16:52Z amz3: ...
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2018-01-30T19:22:13Z gwatt: On the face of it, nix combines the worst world of shared libraries and dynamic libraries
2018-01-30T19:23:27Z gwatt: erm, dynamic libraries and static libraries
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2018-01-30T20:21:25Z manumanumanu: gwatt: I will steal your coworker's quote and attribute it to my own coworker.
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2018-01-30T20:22:46Z gwatt: ok
2018-01-30T20:23:55Z manumanumanu: amz3: well, they use all kinds of purity-preserving voodoo that gives them superpowers on the other hand. The ML camp, with haskell included, is doing all kinds of really cool stuff
2018-01-30T20:24:37Z amz3: is there a database written using haskell or another ML?
2018-01-30T20:25:44Z wasamasa: lol
2018-01-30T20:25:55Z wasamasa: this is almost like gavino from a parallel world
2018-01-30T20:26:55Z gwatt: well some people just need to make ecommerce websites using scheme
2018-01-30T20:27:38Z wasamasa: :D
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2018-01-30T20:36:24Z amz3: no, I am not gavino or whatever
2018-01-30T20:36:46Z amz3: is there a good content manager system in scheme? can it compete with wordpress?!
2018-01-30T20:36:53Z amz3: :trollface:
2018-01-30T20:38:33Z gwatt: I wrote some cgi scripts in scheme for fun
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2018-01-30T20:41:40Z amz3: I looked up gavino, seems like the main contributor to comp.lang.lisp
2018-01-30T20:41:44Z amz3: well there is some truth in what gavino & polymorph self say
2018-01-30T20:43:13Z amz3: I take back what I said about gavino, he is a big troll
2018-01-30T20:43:28Z wasamasa: lol
2018-01-30T20:43:45Z manumanumanu: gwatt: Have you tried artanis? It seems a bit like a monstrosity, but it is actually quite pleasant
2018-01-30T20:46:33Z gwatt: I played with it once or twice
2018-01-30T20:51:04Z manumanumanu: I have thought about actually building something large with it and contribute back to it, but I hate the web
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2018-01-30T20:57:32Z amz3: there is many things wrong with artanis
2018-01-30T20:58:04Z amz3: at least things I don't like
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2018-01-30T21:04:58Z manumanumanu: Meh, people don't use scheme for web dev, so the tools suck. The tools suck, so people don't use scheme for web dev.
2018-01-30T21:05:13Z manumanumanu: That's why I would like to build something serious with it
2018-01-30T21:05:17Z manumanumanu: and see how it goes
2018-01-30T21:05:18Z cmaloney: We just need Scheme for the browser
2018-01-30T21:05:28Z cmaloney: (I'm half-joking)
2018-01-30T21:05:29Z manumanumanu: cmaloney: but... JS is a scheme
2018-01-30T21:05:33Z manumanumanu: :(
2018-01-30T21:05:39Z manumanumanu: I hate that comment
2018-01-30T21:05:40Z gwatt: There are some schemes implemented in js
2018-01-30T21:05:49Z wasamasa: which ones?
2018-01-30T21:05:50Z cmaloney: manumanumanu: Yeah
2018-01-30T21:05:51Z amz3: actually, I take back what I said about artanis, it's just not my style...
2018-01-30T21:05:57Z amz3: biwascheme ftw!
2018-01-30T21:06:07Z amz3: guile has a js backend but it requires TCO
2018-01-30T21:06:10Z cmaloney: Scheme needs something that manipulates the dom like Elm / React
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2018-01-30T21:06:25Z amz3: cmaloney: that's what I did see scheme-todomvc on github
2018-01-30T21:06:47Z manumanumanu: cmaloney: brendan eich must have been so sad when he realized he wasn't going to implement scheme.
2018-01-30T21:06:50Z amz3: https://github.com/amirouche/scheme-todomvc/
2018-01-30T21:06:53Z gwatt: old coworker wrote one: https://github.com/erjiang/foxscheme
2018-01-30T21:06:57Z amz3: old version of the thing but well
2018-01-30T21:07:08Z wasamasa: I considered to do r7rs with node
2018-01-30T21:07:29Z wasamasa: or alternatively, make biwascheme better in this aspect
2018-01-30T21:08:47Z gwatt: I wrote a library to turn sexprs into html
2018-01-30T21:08:56Z gwatt: it's pretty simple
2018-01-30T21:09:11Z manumanumanu: how does it compare to sxml?
2018-01-30T21:09:32Z cmaloney: manumanumanu: I see bits of Scheme peeking through an all-night bender of a language. :)
2018-01-30T21:09:55Z manumanumanu: or at least: how does it differ from doing that using sxml?
2018-01-30T21:10:07Z gwatt: manumanumanu: no idea, probably not great since I threw it together for funsies
2018-01-30T21:10:17Z wasamasa: cmaloney: this is pretty much invalidated by people going nuts over HTML template strings
2018-01-30T21:10:17Z gwatt: with no external input
2018-01-30T21:10:42Z manumanumanu: gwatt: those are the best projects :D
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2018-01-30T21:11:09Z manumanumanu: Good night everyone. it is getting late, and my son will wake up at 5 tomorrow.
2018-01-30T21:11:45Z wasamasa: cmaloney: https://github.com/Polymer/lit-html
2018-01-30T21:12:26Z gwatt: https://gist.github.com/gwatt/f93802518c8e479c4475b851b65cf5e6
2018-01-30T21:12:31Z gwatt: manumanumanu: ^^
2018-01-30T21:16:07Z wasamasa: you remind me that I still haven't looked into teaching github that brackets are totally fine for scheme
2018-01-30T21:16:29Z gwatt: heh, it is a bit jarring to see that red
2018-01-30T21:16:58Z wasamasa: I did once to fix an elisp highlighting issue and it was no fun
2018-01-30T21:21:11Z gwatt: the highlighting is even worse for jsx files that use .js as the extension
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2018-01-30T21:47:34Z aeth: JavaScript being a Scheme wouldn't have saved it. Scheme is a small enough language that there are plenty of ways to make it ugly. And the early browser vendors would have done that.
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2018-01-30T23:01:35Z gwatt: maybe. There would have been other implementations around, including non-browser implementations
2018-01-30T23:06:15Z gwatt: chez scheme was publically released in the mid 80s, mit-scheme has been around for a long time, and guile was in the early 90s as well
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2018-01-30T23:14:52Z aeth: gwatt: Yes, but "Scheme instead of JavaScript" would have been ugly implementations made by the browser vendors, not PLT Scheme or something.
2018-01-30T23:15:01Z aeth: (And if they standardized on PLT Scheme, it would have evolved into a monstrosity instead of Racket.)
2018-01-30T23:15:15Z aeth: At least imo
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2018-01-30T23:15:26Z aeth: The web is generally good ideas, but bad execution.
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2018-01-30T23:16:10Z gwatt: It's certainly possible, but I think it's also possible that additional implementations would have helped prevent that
2018-01-30T23:16:30Z gwatt: Look at some of the marketing around nodejs
2018-01-30T23:16:42Z gwatt: "You can use the same code in the browser AND the server"
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2018-01-30T23:17:50Z gwatt: Being able to say that 20 years ago might have changed a bunch of things
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2018-01-30T23:38:39Z gwatt:  huh, apparently oracle owns the trademark on javascript
2018-01-30T23:38:42Z gwatt: http://tsdr.uspto.gov/#caseNumber=75026640
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2018-01-31T00:42:39Z jcowan: gwatt: Inherited from buying Sun
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2018-01-31T01:21:12Z gwatt: I wondered, but it's a thing Sun didn't event
2018-01-31T01:21:25Z gwatt: invent, not event
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2018-01-31T02:05:26Z akkad: The Sun Microsystems Sign in front of Facebook is pretty funny
2018-01-31T02:11:37Z jcowan: gwatt: Sun trademarked JavaFoo for a great many foos, including JavaScript.  (When PL/I came out, IBM trademarked everything from PL/II to PL/somebignum
2018-01-31T02:12:11Z jcowan: When Netscape relabeled LiveScript as JavaScript, and found there was a conflict, it was simplest to pay Sun for a license to use the name.
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2018-01-31T02:15:07Z jcowan: https://web.archive.org/web/20100528154600/http://www.sun.com/suntrademarks/#J
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2018-01-31T02:38:10Z gwatt: jcowan: neat!
2018-01-31T02:38:31Z gwatt: well, maybe a bit sad
2018-01-31T02:39:15Z gwatt: Is that why the de jur name for what everyone calls javascript is ECMAScript?
2018-01-31T02:39:51Z pjb: Well, foremost, ECMA documents are free, while ISO documents are expensive!
2018-01-31T02:40:37Z pjb: So even if two standard are identical to the comma, I will rather implement an ECMA standard, since at least I have the spec for free :-)
2018-01-31T02:42:29Z gwatt: I remember something about pay-for standards being a pain point in a recent WPA vulnerability
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2018-01-31T08:21:03Z ecraven: how do I import only one binding, while renaming it?
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2018-01-31T09:16:13Z weinholt: ecraven, in r6rs: (import (rename (only (rnrs) +) (+ plus))))
2018-01-31T09:16:41Z ecraven: thanks, I'll try that
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2018-01-31T09:34:20Z dtornabene: hey all, does anyone know of an easy/builtin way to record repl sessions in gambit?
2018-01-31T09:38:34Z amz3: asciinema?
2018-01-31T09:39:08Z wasamasa: theoretically transcript-on and transcript-off, but it's doubtful these are actually implemented
2018-01-31T09:39:20Z vyzo: they are not implemented
2018-01-31T09:39:21Z dtornabene: hey! thanks for responding, sorry that wasn't clear, I meant more like transcript
2018-01-31T09:39:29Z dtornabene: like ^
2018-01-31T09:39:32Z dtornabene: ah I see
2018-01-31T09:39:44Z wasamasa: nobody bothers implementing those
2018-01-31T09:40:06Z dtornabene: thanks for the response all, appreciated
2018-01-31T09:40:34Z weinholt: on linux there is also the "script" command
2018-01-31T09:40:46Z dtornabene: i think thats what I'll have to use for now
2018-01-31T09:41:29Z wasamasa: kawa actually does :P
2018-01-31T09:42:18Z ecraven: transcript was removed in r7rs
2018-01-31T09:42:31Z wasamasa: even in the r5rs imports?
2018-01-31T09:43:44Z ecraven: that I'm not sure about
2018-01-31T09:44:29Z wasamasa: apparently r5rs is to be implemented, save the transcript procedures :P
2018-01-31T09:44:35Z ecraven: The (scheme r5rs) library provides the identifiers defined by R5RS, except that transcript-on and transcript-off are not present.
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2018-01-31T09:44:39Z ecraven: so they have really been removed
2018-01-31T09:44:51Z dtornabene: interesting
2018-01-31T09:45:33Z wasamasa: so this means that you're unlikely to find a 100% compliant r5rs system
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2018-01-31T10:10:08Z vyzo: so a little update on Gerbil
2018-01-31T10:10:23Z vyzo: I did some hackery to get full exception support, with raise-continuable as raise
2018-01-31T10:10:39Z vyzo: I exploited the unspecified nature of the handler of the handler installed by with-exception-handler
2018-01-31T10:10:49Z vyzo: and made it use the previous exception handler when dispatching the new handler
2018-01-31T10:11:06Z vyzo: this allows raise-continuable to be just raise (Gerbil/Gambit raise, which is continuable but doesnt effect the handler
2018-01-31T10:11:24Z vyzo: and the r7rs raise implements the "Give up semantics" suggested by jcowan
2018-01-31T10:11:33Z vyzo: so one less unimplemented primitive
2018-01-31T10:12:05Z vyzo: very close to full implementation status
2018-01-31T10:12:26Z ecraven: very cool!
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2018-01-31T10:14:15Z vyzo: just be careful when using raise, it really will hard-kill the thread if the exception handler returns :)
2018-01-31T10:14:29Z vyzo: instead of doing the chez loop
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2018-01-31T10:22:00Z vyzo: ecraven: note there is an implication for with-exception-handler in swank
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2018-01-31T10:22:17Z vyzo: the continuation you capture will include an extra frame from the previous handler installation
2018-01-31T10:22:30Z vyzo: so you might want to skip the first frame when crawling the stack
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2018-01-31T10:23:08Z ecraven: vyzo: ok, I'll look into that, thank you!
2018-01-31T10:23:17Z ecraven: I haven't gotten stack frame inspection working yet
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2018-01-31T10:41:48Z vyzo: so the issue you had with the system freezing
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2018-01-31T10:42:01Z vyzo: i think you had an exception in the handler that led to a loop
2018-01-31T10:42:15Z vyzo: not that with the new with-exception-handler it won't happen
2018-01-31T10:42:20Z vyzo: you'll get the exception bubbling up
2018-01-31T10:42:38Z vyzo: ecraven: ^^^
2018-01-31T10:44:20Z ecraven: hm.. might have been, but I call the continuation in the handler right away, so there's not much that could go wrong there?
2018-01-31T10:44:30Z ecraven: but I'll play around with it some more today or tomorrow
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2018-01-31T10:49:40Z vyzo: well if you have an error in what you do there
2018-01-31T10:49:42Z vyzo: a runtime error
2018-01-31T10:49:50Z vyzo: like calling a procedure with the wrong arguments
2018-01-31T10:50:04Z vyzo: then you would looop in the exception handler (not tail recursively!)
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2018-01-31T10:50:25Z vyzo: and again and again and again until you swapped out and froze
2018-01-31T10:50:43Z vyzo: perhaps we should take it to #gerbil-scheme
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2018-01-31T12:14:14Z ecraven: foof: working on my r7rs swank, it would be nice to have some way to inspect the call stack (next/previous and if possible current "expression" or function) and locals for each frame (names + values)
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2018-01-31T13:11:54Z ecraven: anyone here using gauche? seems like a really nice system! or is that only used in japan?
2018-01-31T13:17:46Z wasamasa: I used it briefly, among six others for implementing MAL
2018-01-31T13:18:12Z wasamasa: to my surprise it's solid, has a good collection of built-in libraries and the sources aren't a nightmare either
2018-01-31T13:18:14Z ecraven: was a breeze to implement procedure parameter info, much harder in other schemes
2018-01-31T13:18:37Z wasamasa: sagittarius appears to be a fork of it
2018-01-31T13:18:53Z ecraven: ah, I know sagittarius, but never knew it was a fork of gauche
2018-01-31T13:19:02Z wasamasa: well, that's just my suspicion
2018-01-31T13:19:12Z wasamasa: I've yet to find an official confirmation of my hunch
2018-01-31T13:21:05Z wasamasa: it's docs keep referencing gauche over and over again
2018-01-31T13:22:24Z ecraven: wasamasa: it definitely looks like it is. (ref <object> 'slot-name) is used all over the place, and I've only ever seen that in gauche
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2018-01-31T13:28:43Z ecraven: hm.. seems there are no stack traces in gauche :-/
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2018-01-31T16:59:41Z jcowan: I think sagittarius is not a fork of gauche, but rather gauche was used to bootstrap it, and it has some gauche-ish libraries
2018-01-31T17:00:41Z jcowan: gauche has been a strong influence on some of my srfis lately, and when I get out from under data structures and back to numerical stuff, it's my starting point for primes and random numbers
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