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2017-11-02T13:48:54Z jcowan: Does anyone know what ^[ ... ] means in Gauche?  Hard to search the docs for a ^.
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2017-11-02T18:22:22Z jcowan: The answer turns out to be that ^ in Gauche is shorthand for lambda, which I kind of suspected:  (^[] 32) is (lambda () 32) and (^[x y] (+ x y)) is (lambda (x y) (+ x y)).
2017-11-02T18:23:18Z gwatt: weird, but ok
2017-11-02T18:24:01Z jcowan: Gauche code is also very big on using cut
2017-11-02T18:24:21Z wasamasa: it's very gauche
2017-11-02T18:26:40Z gwatt: does gauche differentiate between [] and () ?
2017-11-02T18:27:19Z gwatt: if not, that lambda shorthand is implementable as a trivial syntax-rules macro
2017-11-02T18:27:56Z wasamasa: interesting, sagittarius doesn't have that notation
2017-11-02T18:28:01Z wasamasa: and I thought it's just a gauche fork
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2017-11-03T00:41:24Z Fare: OK, so I implemented inversion of control in the form of python generators alike:
2017-11-03T00:42:25Z Fare: (make-generator f) passes a function yield to f and returns a function that returns whenever f calls yields, and raises #!eof after f returns.
2017-11-03T00:43:25Z Fare: It works, and it's simple enough, but it's ugly as fuck and uses dynamic (raise ...) and (catch ...) (from Gambit) as well as setting variables (to track the state of the generator, etc.)
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2017-11-03T00:44:04Z Fare: I was wondering whether there was a nicer purer way to do it, though without using monads -- though perhaps local parameters.
2017-11-03T00:44:14Z Riastradh: Fare: Delimited continuations, of course!
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2017-11-03T00:55:31Z Fare: Riastradh, of course, but how?
2017-11-03T00:57:21Z Fare: Riastradh, do you have a good interface to control inversion somewhere, akin to python generators, but in a purer way than using (let/cc k (set! var k) ...) and/or more lexically scoped way than using (raise #!eof) ?
2017-11-03T00:57:54Z Fare: if possible one in which the plumbing for e.g. generator-map is still simple.
2017-11-03T00:58:08Z Riastradh: Fare: (define ((generator f)) (shift f)) (define-syntax for (syntax-rules () ((for x g b0 b1+ ...) (reset (let ((x (g))) b0 b1+ ...)))))
2017-11-03T00:58:18Z Fare: my (generator-map map fun) is just (compose fun map)
2017-11-03T00:58:31Z Riastradh: (for x (generator (lambda (yield) (yield 0) (yield 1) (yield 2))) (pp x))
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2017-11-03T00:59:09Z Riastradh: Maybe want (shift k (f k)), or (reset (lambda () ...)), to be consistent about whether shift and reset are procedures or syntax.
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2017-11-03T01:00:40Z Fare: ok
2017-11-03T01:00:55Z Fare: I wonder how well supported delimited control is in Gambit.
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2017-11-03T01:04:22Z jcob: Is there anything like &optional in scheme?
2017-11-03T01:05:43Z Riastradh: Fare: You can express it in terms of call-with-current-continuation.
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2017-11-03T01:05:47Z Fare: jcob: depends which scheme
2017-11-03T01:05:56Z Riastradh: Fare: https://mumble.net/~campbell/scheme/shift-reset.scm
2017-11-03T01:06:50Z Fare: shift & reset are the ones I like and used in Common Lisp (using Arnesi's CL-in-CL interpreter).
2017-11-03T01:07:02Z Riastradh: Apparently I chose to write those as macros, for some reason.
2017-11-03T01:07:05Z Riastradh: This is
2017-11-03T01:07:06Z Riastradh: er
2017-11-03T01:07:22Z jcob: Fare: chicken scheme especially
2017-11-03T01:07:32Z Riastradh: These don't support tagged delimited continuations, so nesting is limited; see Racket for a more elaborated tagged delimited continuation system, which might even have reasonable semantics.
2017-11-03T01:07:40Z X-Scale: So, I'm using MIT/Scheme and sometimes I have an error inside the thunk call of with-input-from-file. Then I correct the mistake, but when I try to evaluate the same expression starting with with-input-from-file, it gives me an erro that the file is already being used by another process.
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2017-11-03T01:07:57Z X-Scale: Is there a way of closing that open port ? I have no handle to it
2017-11-03T01:08:08Z Fare: jcob: see the chicken documentation for how it does it. Every Scheme does it differently, and those that don't, you can import macros for it.
2017-11-03T01:08:09Z Riastradh: Or possibly <https://mumble.net/~campbell/scheme/fshift-freset.scm>, but I can't vouch for the reasonableness of that; it's been too long since I thought about it.  (Corresponding document with math formulae: <https://mumble.net/~campbell/scheme/fshift-freset.pdf>.)
2017-11-03T01:09:20Z Riastradh: ((There is no SRFI or full paper like I suggested in that fragmentary document.))
2017-11-03T01:09:38Z Riastradh: X-Scale: Is this Windows?
2017-11-03T01:09:47Z Riastradh: X-Scale: It's possible that (gc-flip) will fix that.
2017-11-03T01:10:20Z X-Scale: Riastradh: Indeed, I'm using the 9.2 windows version of MIT/Scheme.
2017-11-03T01:11:47Z Fare: Riastradh, thanks. I'll keep my python-like ugliness with full continuations, Gambit exceptions and set! for now, but I've added a TODO note to revise when I have time.
2017-11-03T01:12:07Z Fare: haha, copious free time!
2017-11-03T01:12:39Z Riastradh: Fare: You can skip the exceptions part of that!  All it takes is call-with-current-continuation and set!.  Really, you just need to plop in the definitions of shift/reset...
2017-11-03T01:13:39Z X-Scale: Riastradh: I've tried it and still gives me the same error. Maybe I'll try to hack around it by storing the implicit default input port given by with-input-from-file in a global variable, so I can use its value to close that hanged input port.
2017-11-03T01:15:18Z Fare: Riastradh, yes, yes, but gotta an application to deliver, and I already spent too much time on this, and it currently works well enough in the linear continuation case.
2017-11-03T01:15:34Z Fare: (which is sufficient to my current needs)
2017-11-03T01:15:45Z Riastradh: Fare: That's reasonable.
2017-11-03T01:16:20Z Fare: I'm also worried that if I start doing delimited control right, I'll have to submit a large patch to Gambit to make it play nice with exceptions and threads.
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2017-11-03T01:16:32Z Fare: Not something I want to do *now*
2017-11-03T01:16:47Z Riastradh: Also reasonable!
2017-11-03T01:16:57Z Riastradh: As an alternative approach, you could just _use_ threads for the purpose...
2017-11-03T01:17:20Z Fare: Yes, and Gambit actually has nice support for this programming style.
2017-11-03T01:17:28Z Fare: threads-as-actors.
2017-11-03T01:17:34Z Riastradh: (Nothing says threads have to actually run concurrently!  You can just keep passing messages back and forth.)
2017-11-03T01:17:45Z Fare: (they are green threads, but at the VM level)
2017-11-03T01:18:43Z Fare: Riastradh, and that's also what I was doing in CL, though in a more cooperative way: I implemented green threads manually on top of delimited control.
2017-11-03T01:18:55Z Fare: with a trivial round-robin scheduler.
2017-11-03T01:19:51Z Fare: you had to explicitly yield control, though.
2017-11-03T01:20:26Z Riastradh: Heh.  The lesson is clearly that CL is just Scheme standing on its head!
2017-11-03T01:21:04Z Fare: yeah, well, CL didn't shine there -- but at least it was possible in CL.
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2017-11-03T01:43:32Z X-Scale: Riastradh: close-all-open-files solved it.
2017-11-03T01:46:48Z Riastradh: Heh.  Guess you must have had a stale reference to it hanging around somewhere.
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2017-11-03T02:11:28Z Fare: is there a semi-standard library for higher-order functions?
2017-11-03T02:11:35Z Fare: oh my, there is https://srfi.schemers.org/srfi-158/srfi-158.html for generators
2017-11-03T02:14:07Z Fare: and it has a "make-coroutine-generator"
2017-11-03T02:15:20Z Fare: ouch. I hate it that it make the eof object supermagic.
2017-11-03T02:16:25Z Fare: sigh.
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2017-11-03T02:18:54Z Fare: not that throwing an exception with an eof object is *that* much better.
2017-11-03T02:20:07Z Riastradh: Certainly is better -- it's an exceptional out-of-band channel, by definition...
2017-11-03T02:20:22Z Fare: yes it *is* better.
2017-11-03T02:20:33Z Fare: yet it make the out-of-band channel special.
2017-11-03T02:20:58Z Fare: maybe (eof) should be a parameter...
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2017-11-03T02:21:48Z Fare: looking at the state of SRFIs, I am somewhat unimpressed.
2017-11-03T02:22:36Z Fare: also, monomorphic everything... as if ad hoc polymorphism wasn't invented in the 1960s... ouch.
2017-11-03T02:24:38Z Fare: Yuck. Gotta write code. But at some point, some serious library design is needed. And some OO design, too.
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2017-11-03T02:27:02Z Fare: at some point, I gotta do LIL right.
2017-11-03T02:27:12Z Fare: in Scheme... SIL ?
2017-11-03T02:28:49Z Riastradh: LIL?
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2017-11-03T02:34:51Z Fare: https://github.com/fare/lisp-interface-library
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2017-11-03T02:36:07Z Fare: runtime typeclasses for CL, if you will
2017-11-03T02:37:10Z Fare: I am really proud of demonstrating that 4-way isomorphism between OO and Interface-Passing, and between Pure and Stateful.
2017-11-03T02:37:47Z Fare: and someday I want a language where this isomorphism is available as a primitive.
2017-11-03T02:38:50Z Riastradh: Typeclasses are great!
2017-11-03T02:38:55Z Fare: they are
2017-11-03T02:39:19Z Fare: I want all my stdlib to be using typeclasses everywhere
2017-11-03T02:46:11Z Riastradh: I sketched an idea for a Lispy variation on the theme of typeclasses a few years ago, but never went anywhere with it.
2017-11-03T02:47:08Z Riastradh: https://mumble.net/~campbell/tmp/alias.scm
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2017-11-03T02:56:58Z Fare: Riastradh, how is this alias analysis related to typeclasses?
2017-11-03T02:59:42Z Riastradh: Fare: The alias analysis isn't; the idea I called `ontologies', of whose usage alias.scm serves an example application, however, is.
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2017-11-03T03:01:24Z Riastradh: (I'm not sure now that it actually serves any purpose that typeclasses can't serve with sufficiently advanced magic in Haskell, possibly requiring existential types, but maybe at the time I wrote it I wasn't as advanced at Haskell technology, or maybe it is more flexible in some way.)
2017-11-03T03:02:12Z Fare: ok
2017-11-03T03:03:24Z Fare: Well, lil "interfaces" serve the same purpose as Haskell typeclasses... except that the system won't infer them at type-inference-time, since there is no type-inference-time. You have to provide them manually and pass them around (hence "interface-passing style")
2017-11-03T03:04:32Z Fare: on the modest plus side, you can do runtime "punning" of a same data value seen through multiple "interfaces".
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2017-11-03T03:10:16Z Fare: is there a SRFI for standard higher-order functions, such as compose, constantly, schoenfinkel, etc.
2017-11-03T03:17:27Z Riastradh: Not that I know of, but I haven't been paying attention in a while.
2017-11-03T03:17:58Z Riastradh: Haskell's existential types are basically the same thing as passing interfaces around at run-time, including storing them in data structures.
2017-11-03T03:18:24Z Fare: yup
2017-11-03T03:18:27Z Riastradh: (Why they're called `existential types' has always puzzled me, but I suspect it has something to do with the insistence of the Haskell community on maximizing the jargon to concept ratio.)
2017-11-03T03:18:43Z Fare: is there a semi-standard name for compose in reverse order?
2017-11-03T03:18:52Z Riastradh: Not that I know of!
2017-11-03T03:19:15Z Fare: I much prefer left-to-right in many situations.
2017-11-03T03:20:44Z Riastradh: What, you don't like reading things like (compose baz->quux bar->baz foo->bar)?
2017-11-03T03:20:45Z Fare: and when going right to left, I *much* prefer names to have a right to left arrow, so foo<-bar instead of bar->foo
2017-11-03T03:21:22Z Fare: Right now I call my functions foo<-bar and much sanity is gained.
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2017-11-03T03:38:29Z Fare: what name for compose with left-to-right flow? compose* ? seq ? chain ? I hate this naming game
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2017-11-03T03:53:32Z Riastradh: esopmoc
2017-11-03T03:56:18Z pierpa: good one
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2017-11-03T04:13:08Z Fare: nice. I'm hesitating about picking it. I used rcompose because it might be the most obvious name (though ugly)
2017-11-03T04:13:30Z Fare: if I were designing poetry rather than prose, I'd pick your suggestion.
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2017-11-03T04:20:45Z Fare: OK, what about a function to curry and/or partially apply arguments?
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2017-11-03T04:23:13Z Fare: i.e. name this function: (lambda (f . args) (lambda (more-args) (apply f (append args more-args)))
2017-11-03T04:27:46Z Riastradh: (curry f arg0 arg1+ ...)?
2017-11-03T04:27:59Z Fare: maybe
2017-11-03T04:29:09Z Fare: and this one would be rcurry? (lambda (f . more-args) (lambda (args) (apply f (append args more-args)))
2017-11-03T04:30:54Z Fare: that's what they seem to be called in CL's ALEXANDRIA library
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2017-11-03T07:58:07Z jcowan__: Fare: Unfortunately, the standard name for wrong-way compose is ... "compose"
2017-11-03T07:58:55Z ecraven: in compose-heavy code, I've used o (or some nicer unicode variant)
2017-11-03T07:59:04Z ecraven: (o f g h)
2017-11-03T08:11:47Z Fare: jcowan__, wait, what do you call "wrong way", and where is the name defined?
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2017-11-03T08:15:21Z jcowan__: Quine talks about it in _Quiddities_, but I don't know just where ... looking
2017-11-03T08:16:52Z jcowan__: Ah, s.v. Mathematosis
2017-11-03T08:18:31Z jcowan__: "We saw functions as the relation of values to arguments: (lambda (x) x^2) as the relation of square to root.  So it was with Peano in 1911, and so it has been down the decades with some writers, including Gödel and me.
2017-11-03T08:19:21Z jcowan__: And so it most naturally should be: the function square-of is the relation of square to root, just as the relation uncle or uncle-of is the relation of uncle to nephew or niece.
2017-11-03T08:19:46Z jcowan__: Others, however, have switched the function and taken it as the relation of argument to value, root to square.
2017-11-03T08:21:04Z jcowan__: This is not just an arbitrary matter of right and left, starboard and port, fore and aft: it repercusses.  Thus let f and g be two functions, say square-of and half-of. Their resultant, square-of-half-of, is written as the function f|g, so that f|g of x should be f of (g of x).
2017-11-03T08:21:35Z jcowan__: But on the fashionable perverse version of functions it comes out as g of (f of x).  There are other awkward consequences as well.
2017-11-03T08:22:15Z jcowan__: Nothing is gained, no gain is claimed, but the perverse switch is persisted in, if only as a hallmark of up-to-date professionalism.
2017-11-03T08:23:04Z jcowan__: So the natural and the fashionable go on concurrently, and communication between communicants is rendered laborious.  One would happily ride with the tide were it not for the technical superiority of the old way.
2017-11-03T08:23:38Z jcowan__: (end)
2017-11-03T08:25:30Z Fare: Oh, I fully agree that the mathematicians got the notation wrong.
2017-11-03T08:26:01Z Fare: I just want my libraries to minimize naming surprise while providing all the good functionality
2017-11-03T08:26:16Z Fare: indeed my function rcompose is more primitive than compose
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2017-11-03T08:29:02Z Fare: (though I admit part of that citation is inscrutable to me)
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2017-11-03T09:46:05Z amz3: héllo #scheme
2017-11-03T09:46:07Z amz3: what's up?
2017-11-03T09:46:19Z gwatt: nm, you?
2017-11-03T09:47:09Z amz3: I am terribly bored
2017-11-03T09:47:19Z amz3: I don't what to do
2017-11-03T09:47:58Z amz3: I am at a point where I am thinking about learning some datastructure & algorithms
2017-11-03T09:48:04Z amz3: or worse doing projet euler
2017-11-03T09:48:40Z amz3: do you have any project idea?
2017-11-03T09:49:10Z ventonegro: Obviously you should implement a crypto currency :)
2017-11-03T09:50:16Z amz3: :D
2017-11-03T09:50:18Z amz3: good call, but cryptocurrencies comes after project euler and datastructures/algorithms in my TODO list
2017-11-03T09:51:16Z gwatt: I've been working on a way to make self contained executables with chez scheme
2017-11-03T09:52:39Z mejja: if you are truly bored you can try bitcoin mining with paper and pencil.. http://www.righto.com/2014/09/mining-bitcoin-with-pencil-and-paper.html
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2017-11-03T09:57:23Z gwatt: ah, perfect! I was getting annoyed with all this pesky free time I have
2017-11-03T10:01:51Z amz3: actually I have many project ideas..
2017-11-03T10:02:09Z amz3: but I can't have my project to a point where other people get interested in it
2017-11-03T10:02:26Z amz3: or the project is too difficult for me
2017-11-03T10:02:36Z amz3: like peer to peer DHT
2017-11-03T10:03:41Z amz3: I even do backend and frontend web in scheme and still nobody ping me about it
2017-11-03T10:04:10Z amz3: it's not scheme specific my other projects in python don't catch attention either (or maybe they just work)
2017-11-03T10:04:37Z amz3: the thing is that I am solving problems I don't have, hence I don't know how to go forward with the project
2017-11-03T10:13:58Z gwatt: That's always the problem with personal projects
2017-11-03T10:14:31Z amz3: sadly...
2017-11-03T10:16:43Z gwatt: damn you C! no sizeof in #if...
2017-11-03T10:19:55Z amz3: I have the feeling that I am at the top of what I am doing, going further is not engineering but research.
2017-11-03T10:20:24Z amz3: aka. I don't find answers on stackoverflow :p
2017-11-03T10:26:49Z gwatt: what are you doing?
2017-11-03T10:27:49Z ventonegro: Find a hobby. Write a software that helps you with your hobby
2017-11-03T10:28:11Z ventonegro: ???
2017-11-03T10:28:14Z ventonegro: Profit
2017-11-03T10:31:14Z amz3: gwatt: i made bindings of wiredtiger database library and build abstractions on top of it
2017-11-03T10:32:05Z amz3: not really on top of it, in the sens that wiredtiger is still available for use by client code
2017-11-03T10:32:13Z amz3: it has no network support yet
2017-11-03T10:34:01Z amz3: for instance, I have this problem with space feeling curves, where some people seems to claim that given a cube inside the ndimensional space and a point on the space feeling curve, it's possible to compute the next point on the space feeling curve that is inside the cube
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2017-11-03T10:34:38Z amz3: I don't know how to do that even with a brute force algorithm
2017-11-03T10:35:14Z gwatt: I don't know what space feeling curves are
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2017-11-03T10:37:37Z amz3: space feeling curve are a one dimensionnal representation of n dimensionnal space that preserve data locality
2017-11-03T10:38:06Z amz3: basically, you have (latitude, longitude, time) 3D point
2017-11-03T10:39:53Z amz3: there is procedure (morton latitude longitude time) that returns a single number. morton in particular does interleave bit representation of the arguments
2017-11-03T10:40:28Z amz3: https://aws.amazon.com/blogs/database/z-order-indexing-for-multifaceted-queries-in-amazon-dynamodb-part-1/
2017-11-03T10:40:41Z amz3: this is an application of space feeling curve ^
2017-11-03T10:40:50Z amz3: which is exactly my use case
2017-11-03T10:41:20Z amz3: the only issue, is that they don't explain the procedure called 'nextJumpIn'
2017-11-03T10:41:28Z pjb: I assume the space feeling curve is continuous, therefore you can probably apply something similar to the intermediate zero theorem.
2017-11-03T10:41:57Z pjb: But I'd expect to need to have a point inside the cube.
2017-11-03T10:42:14Z amz3: there is some images in the article showing how the curve does to fill space while preserving locality
2017-11-03T10:45:57Z amz3: pjb: yes, I have two points inside the cube, top left and bottom right of the cube
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2017-11-03T13:02:49Z mejja: filling .neq. feeling ;-)
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2017-11-03T14:04:57Z qu1j0t3 was about to say
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2017-11-03T14:16:38Z gwatt: mejja: ah, that makes so much more sense
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2017-11-03T15:00:20Z murii: anyone here interested in developing 2D games using scheme like language?
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2017-11-03T15:09:00Z cmaloney: possibly?
2017-11-03T15:13:45Z murii: I'm about to add support for my scheme like language in my game framework and I'm curious how many people are interested in this so after I'm done I can show it here
2017-11-03T15:14:32Z wasamasa: I can only wonder what exactly "scheme like" means
2017-11-03T15:14:36Z wasamasa: inb4 it's newlisp
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2017-11-03T15:16:11Z murii: wasamasa, https://hastebin.com/valepiguba.lisp
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2017-11-03T15:17:16Z wasamasa: ah, spilled pringles, underscores in symbols and setq instead of set!
2017-11-03T15:17:22Z mejja: please don't mix defun and define like that
2017-11-03T15:17:37Z wasamasa: also, delimiting strings with @ and / is funny
2017-11-03T15:17:42Z murii: xD
2017-11-03T15:17:48Z murii: thought so too
2017-11-03T15:18:21Z wasamasa: I've assumed at first it might be a special reader macro for class variables or raw strings
2017-11-03T15:18:21Z murii: mejja, what's wrong with it?
2017-11-03T15:19:42Z wasamasa: it could be worse, newlisp uses bb-code literals for long strings
2017-11-03T15:19:56Z mejja: murii: choose one
2017-11-03T15:20:17Z murii: mejja, define is for variables and defun for functions, isn't this cleaner ?
2017-11-03T15:20:32Z wasamasa: traditionally, scheme uses define for both
2017-11-03T15:20:33Z gwatt: in scheme, functions *are* data!
2017-11-03T15:20:37Z wasamasa: because ^
2017-11-03T15:20:54Z mejja: murii: so how many namespaces do you have?
2017-11-03T15:21:05Z gwatt: But yes, (define (foo ...) ...) is the same as (define foo (lambda (...) ...))
2017-11-03T15:21:23Z murii: mejja, hm?
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2017-11-03T15:21:42Z gwatt: Though, "scheme like language" is vague enough to mean anything, I suppose
2017-11-03T15:21:48Z wasamasa: murii: how much scheme did you write so far?
2017-11-03T15:22:11Z murii: can't answer that one
2017-11-03T15:22:20Z wasamasa: you didn't?
2017-11-03T15:22:28Z murii: I did not
2017-11-03T15:22:37Z manumanumanu: murii: Do you have a separate namespace for variables and procedures?
2017-11-03T15:22:40Z murii: I looked over the documentation
2017-11-03T15:22:49Z wasamasa feels reminded of javascript people trying to feel better about their skill by referring to scheme although they never wrote any
2017-11-03T15:23:20Z wasamasa: murii: well, I suggest you to actually use it, you may find that there is more to it than the standards convey :P
2017-11-03T15:24:02Z murii: My goal here is to keep it simple, wasamasa :)
2017-11-03T15:24:14Z murii: and use the language just as a scripting language,nothing more
2017-11-03T15:24:15Z manumanumanu: murii: do you have any documentation? I am a bit curious about your design choices
2017-11-03T15:24:29Z murii: manumanumanu, I have on my github page
2017-11-03T15:24:34Z manumanumanu: you could just use chibi scheme :)
2017-11-03T15:24:36Z wasamasa: murii: there are tons of them already, if you do one I'd expect there to be more to it
2017-11-03T15:25:33Z murii: Everything started back when I used Lua in my game framework. I didn't want to use it anymore so I decided to make my own little thing
2017-11-03T15:25:34Z gwatt: murii: This guy? https://github.com/Murii/Creo-ScriptingLanguage
2017-11-03T15:25:36Z murii: so here we are
2017-11-03T15:25:40Z murii: gwatt, ye
2017-11-03T15:26:04Z wasamasa: there is for example this urn thing which is the probably best thought through lisp compiling to lua
2017-11-03T15:26:49Z gwatt: What is th rationale for strings starting with "@" and ending with "/" ?
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2017-11-03T15:27:38Z murii: gwatt, it was easier for me to parse
2017-11-03T15:27:43Z murii: and it looks fancy
2017-11-03T15:28:10Z wasamasa: you should work on your tokenizer skills then
2017-11-03T15:28:31Z wasamasa: ragel is a nifty tool for creating FSMs in C
2017-11-03T15:29:05Z manumanumanu: ragel is not just nifty. I's great!
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2017-11-03T15:29:34Z wasamasa: well, except when someone uses it wrong and runs into a security vulnerability
2017-11-03T15:29:57Z gwatt: how often does that happen?
2017-11-03T15:30:19Z ventonegro: «The difference between “same” and “eq” is that same checks for the value of the object while eq checks if the two objects are actually the same in the memory.»
2017-11-03T15:30:24Z wasamasa: gwatt: we'll never know, but last time was particularly fun on hackernews
2017-11-03T15:30:26Z ventonegro: Is this... Intended?
2017-11-03T15:30:38Z wasamasa: gwatt: perhaps you've heard of this cloudflare thing
2017-11-03T15:31:09Z murii: ventonegro, yep
2017-11-03T15:31:25Z ventonegro: murii: You really hate your users :)
2017-11-03T15:31:26Z wasamasa: sounds like equal vs eq
2017-11-03T15:31:45Z wasamasa: I'd rather rename eq to same than equal to same
2017-11-03T15:31:50Z ventonegro: same is equal and equal is same
2017-11-03T15:32:00Z wasamasa: exactly :>
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2017-11-03T15:32:34Z wasamasa: murii: a simple way to provide string processing abilities is a primitive for splitting it into characters and list manipulation functions
2017-11-03T15:32:58Z gwatt: wasamasa: ah, fun times
2017-11-03T15:33:04Z wasamasa: murii: some languages go for pcre instead...
2017-11-03T15:33:45Z wasamasa: gwatt: the threads were mostly filled with blaming the tool
2017-11-03T15:34:23Z murii: wasamasa, I have a method for splitting it into characters
2017-11-03T15:34:48Z murii: string-get string index
2017-11-03T15:35:23Z wasamasa: setcar and setcdr are the classic lisp names
2017-11-03T15:35:30Z wasamasa: so why not rename define to defvar?
2017-11-03T15:35:39Z murii: oh
2017-11-03T15:35:39Z wasamasa: I don't see much that is scheme-like here
2017-11-03T15:35:49Z murii: defvar is actually better
2017-11-03T15:35:49Z murii: thanks
2017-11-03T15:35:57Z wasamasa: it reminds me more of elisp than scheme
2017-11-03T15:36:15Z wasamasa: maybe add `append' to the list functions
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2017-11-03T15:37:34Z murii: wasamasa, I don't understand
2017-11-03T15:38:10Z wasamasa: other essentials are `list' and `reverse'
2017-11-03T15:39:40Z murii: what does "list" do?
2017-11-03T15:40:01Z gwatt: it makes a list
2017-11-03T15:40:19Z wasamasa: (list 1 2 3) does the same as (cons 1 (cons 2 (cons 3 nil)))
2017-11-03T15:40:27Z murii: ah
2017-11-03T15:40:34Z murii: what about "reverse" ?
2017-11-03T15:40:43Z wasamasa: it turns (1 2 3) into (3 2 1)
2017-11-03T15:40:44Z gwatt: It reverses a list
2017-11-03T15:40:55Z murii: okay
2017-11-03T15:40:58Z murii: I can add those
2017-11-03T15:41:04Z murii: thanks!
2017-11-03T15:41:08Z wasamasa: your code does reversing already, no?
2017-11-03T15:41:17Z wasamasa: it shouldn't be hard to expose that as a command
2017-11-03T15:41:22Z murii: I have a function for that but it's not exposed to the language
2017-11-03T15:41:28Z murii: yeah, it should not
2017-11-03T15:42:18Z wasamasa: apparently you use a self-quoting () instead of nil
2017-11-03T15:42:29Z wasamasa: which is weird because in scheme you have #t, #f and '()
2017-11-03T15:42:39Z wasamasa: and in lisp you have t and nil
2017-11-03T15:42:54Z wasamasa: where () is the same as nil
2017-11-03T15:43:05Z murii: if have () and f for nil
2017-11-03T15:43:36Z wasamasa: so, can you actually construct a list with () as terminating element?
2017-11-03T15:44:03Z murii: yeah
2017-11-03T15:44:06Z murii: let me check
2017-11-03T15:44:57Z murii: nope
2017-11-03T15:45:04Z murii: you have to use f
2017-11-03T15:45:39Z wasamasa: but then () and f aren't the same!
2017-11-03T15:45:59Z murii: I have to fix that then
2017-11-03T15:46:00Z murii: :)
2017-11-03T15:46:21Z murii: Are there other functions like list, reverse which you guys use and are handy?
2017-11-03T15:46:40Z wasamasa: backquote is handy for macros
2017-11-03T15:46:49Z murii: you said something about "append"
2017-11-03T15:47:07Z wasamasa: yes, append stitches two or more lists together
2017-11-03T15:47:19Z murii: only lists?
2017-11-03T15:47:23Z wasamasa: (append '(1 2) '(3 4) '(5 6)) ;=> (1 2 3 4 5 6)
2017-11-03T15:47:29Z wasamasa: some lisps extend it to work on strings
2017-11-03T15:48:05Z murii: (append '2 '3) will work?
2017-11-03T15:48:27Z wasamasa: no, for that you use (list 2 3)
2017-11-03T15:48:36Z murii: got it
2017-11-03T15:50:00Z wasamasa: (list) yields the empty list
2017-11-03T15:50:13Z murii: ok
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2017-11-03T16:56:17Z takitus: murii: Re handy functions, read SRFI-1--all of it. :)
2017-11-03T16:58:02Z wasamasa: srfi-1 can be fully implemented in scheme, but the language is far from being one
2017-11-03T16:59:21Z takitus: wasamasa: One what?
2017-11-03T17:09:22Z takitus: wasamasa: An SRFI, you mean? Well, the question was about 'other functions like list, reverse' which are handy. SRFI-1 is broadly available and super-handy.
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2017-11-03T17:41:54Z jcowan: Chez iirc makes () self-quoting
2017-11-03T17:42:13Z jcowan: but of course it is different from #f
2017-11-03T17:42:34Z ecraven: > ()   -> Exception: invalid syntax ()
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2017-11-03T17:44:33Z gwatt: I don't think chez makes anything self quoting
2017-11-03T17:50:18Z ecraven: even vectors are not self-quoting, in chez, I think
2017-11-03T17:51:19Z gwatt: correct
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2017-11-03T18:11:08Z jcowan: I wrote a hunk of code in Petite at one point because I happend to have it on my laptop
2017-11-03T18:11:17Z jcowan: when I moved the code to Chicken I had to quote all the ()s
2017-11-03T18:11:25Z jcowan: this was probably pre-R6RS Chez
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2017-11-03T18:19:15Z wasamasa: takitus: the presented language above is rather far from being a scheme
2017-11-03T18:19:23Z wasamasa: takitus: it looks more like elisp currently
2017-11-03T18:23:29Z takitus: wasamasa: Ah, OK.
2017-11-03T18:23:49Z jcowan: takitus: url?
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2017-11-03T19:06:50Z Murii: what does "SRFI" stand for?
2017-11-03T19:07:18Z Murii: "Scheme Request for Implementation"
2017-11-03T19:08:07Z jcowan: They are mini-standards, usually but not always with portable implementations
2017-11-03T19:09:32Z Murii: where can I read more about about this?
2017-11-03T19:09:44Z jcowan: srfi.schemers.org
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2017-11-03T19:16:37Z Murii: What output should I get when running this: (reverse (list 1 2 3 4))
2017-11-03T19:16:46Z Murii: -> 1 2 3 4
2017-11-03T19:17:05Z wasamasa: it should be a list of 4 3 2 1
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2017-11-03T19:21:11Z Murii: ok
2017-11-03T19:24:14Z cmaloney: Are you saving that result?
2017-11-03T19:24:30Z cmaloney: or is it getting generated and not resetting the variable?
2017-11-03T19:24:47Z cmaloney: (eg: do you need something like (set! foo (reverse (list ...)
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2017-11-03T20:04:51Z Murii: cmaloney, you need to set! in order to apply it to a variable
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2017-11-03T20:05:34Z cmaloney: Right
2017-11-03T20:05:43Z cmaloney: Wasn't sure if that was an issue you were running into
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2017-11-03T21:00:58Z takitus: jcowan: Sorry, thanks for posting the URL for me.
2017-11-03T21:04:57Z jcowan: takitus: no, I was asking you for an url
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2017-11-03T21:05:15Z jcowan: <wasamasa> takitus: the presented language above is rather far from being a scheme
2017-11-03T21:05:23Z jcowan: but I don't know what language that is
2017-11-03T21:07:08Z takitus: jcowan: Neither do I :)
2017-11-03T21:07:18Z jcowan: oh
2017-11-03T21:07:31Z wasamasa: https://github.com/Murii/Creo-ScriptingLanguage
2017-11-03T21:07:59Z wasamasa: we were just taking rounds at the "The language is part of the lisp family, it is most similar to scheme." statement
2017-11-03T21:08:43Z jcowan: it's a Scheme/CL hybrid
2017-11-03T21:11:17Z jcowan: but yes, closer to CL
2017-11-03T21:12:31Z takitus: wasamasa: Thanks, interesting.
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2017-11-03T21:13:36Z wasamasa: Murii: if you need a checklist of enough features to allow for bootstrapping, check out https://github.com/kanaka/mal/blob/master/process/guide.md
2017-11-03T21:16:42Z Murii: wasamasa, oh, thank you
2017-11-03T21:16:58Z wasamasa: closures, apply, meta data, ...
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2017-11-03T22:11:02Z Murii: opinions on defvar vs define ?
2017-11-03T22:11:22Z Riastradh: defvar isn't a thing in Scheme, so...
2017-11-03T22:12:03Z wasamasa: then, the whole thing isn't scheme
2017-11-03T22:12:18Z Murii: oh
2017-11-03T22:12:26Z Murii: I should ask at #lisp?
2017-11-03T22:12:37Z wasamasa: no, they'd just sneer at you for not using ECL
2017-11-03T22:12:56Z Murii: ECL?
2017-11-03T22:13:05Z wasamasa: an embeddable common lisp implementation
2017-11-03T22:13:14Z wasamasa: embeddable meaning that it's a mere 20M :P
2017-11-03T22:13:48Z Murii: I fit that profile
2017-11-03T22:13:49Z Murii: heh
2017-11-03T22:14:36Z wasamasa: it's interesting that most new lisp implementations gravitate towards lisp-1 and scheme or clojure semantics as opposed to an old-school lisp like the ones predating CL (like, elisp)
2017-11-03T22:15:00Z wasamasa: so far the only other one I've found worth using is picolisp
2017-11-03T22:17:00Z longshi: btw, anyone here follows the development of pixie lang? Some time ago i've watched a conference talk about its development and it looked very cool - fast native clojurelike lisp
2017-11-03T22:17:19Z longshi: but i haven't heard about it lately
2017-11-03T22:18:28Z Murii: can you guys write me some examples on how append should work like? I made it work but I want to be sure it's working fine
2017-11-03T22:18:51Z wasamasa: there are a few scheme test suites you might be able to repurpose
2017-11-03T22:19:14Z wasamasa: https://github.com/ashinn/chibi-scheme/blob/master/tests/r7rs-tests.scm#L1043
2017-11-03T22:19:28Z Murii: srfi-1.html#Miscellaneous tried to make that work
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2017-11-04T09:44:25Z xelxebar: Is there a way to build an anonymous recursive procedure? Mainly just curious.
2017-11-04T09:47:42Z GreaseMonkey: xelxebar: there's letrec and named let
2017-11-04T09:48:05Z GreaseMonkey: wait
2017-11-04T09:48:15Z GreaseMonkey: maybe those aren't truly anonymous
2017-11-04T09:48:18Z GreaseMonkey: there's a specific lambda calculus trick you can do
2017-11-04T09:49:21Z GreaseMonkey: ((lambda (f) (f f)) (lambda (f) ....... ))  ; that could be a staring point
2017-11-04T09:50:01Z GreaseMonkey: you could wrap that inside another lambda in order to make it possible to pass around
2017-11-04T09:51:28Z GreaseMonkey: (lambda args ((lambda (f) (apply f `(,f . ,args))) (lambda (f . args) (if (null? args) 0 (+ (car args) (f f (cdr args))))))
2017-11-04T09:51:38Z GreaseMonkey: something like that, note i've probably missed a closing bracket
2017-11-04T09:52:10Z GreaseMonkey: but at the end of the day, if you don't want the convenience of names, you're probably going to have to use lambda calculus tricks
2017-11-04T09:53:38Z amz3`: xelxebar: I think that's the purpose of y combinator? no?
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2017-11-04T10:32:21Z xelxebar: GreaseMonkey, amz3`: Oh, duh! I've even mucked about with lambda calculus a few years back!
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2017-11-04T13:28:25Z tomlukeywood: Is there a graphics library for scheme?
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2017-11-04T13:30:05Z amz3`: for doing which kind of graphic a GUI?
2017-11-04T13:30:11Z amz3`: there is guile-cairo
2017-11-04T13:30:13Z amz3`: guile-2d
2017-11-04T13:30:18Z tomlukeywood: just drawing shapes etc to the screen
2017-11-04T13:30:24Z amz3`: is called chicadee
2017-11-04T13:30:36Z amz3`: well you can use guile-cairo for that
2017-11-04T13:31:06Z tomlukeywood: was this what you meant? https://dthompson.us/projects/chickadee.html
2017-11-04T13:31:22Z amz3`: tomlukeywood: yes
2017-11-04T13:31:32Z tomlukeywood: ok it looks good thanks
2017-11-04T13:31:38Z amz3`: but that is optimised for doing some kind of games
2017-11-04T13:31:55Z tomlukeywood: amz3`: thats what i was thinking of doing ^^
2017-11-04T13:32:03Z amz3`: oh ok
2017-11-04T13:32:12Z amz3`: good luck,
2017-11-04T13:32:13Z amz3`: tomlukeywood: davexunit is the maintainer
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2017-11-04T16:49:18Z teurastaja: yo yo does scheme have a tensor processing library for AI? an srfi? should i create one for this?
2017-11-04T16:49:45Z teurastaja: if i create one, it should have a hardware interface for GPUs. does it exist?
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2017-11-04T16:52:47Z Riastradh: teurastaja: Forget about SRFI; it's up to you to implement it.
2017-11-04T16:54:01Z teurastaja: riastradh: if i want to improve this situation, is there any GPU srfi?
2017-11-04T16:54:44Z teurastaja: if i implement it all on CPU without consideration for hardware, is there hope it will be used?
2017-11-04T16:54:55Z teurastaja: AI in scheme is lagging
2017-11-04T16:56:04Z Riastradh: No.  It's up to you to implement all this.
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2017-11-04T16:56:48Z teurastaja: is there an AI community within the scheme community?
2017-11-04T16:57:44Z Riastradh: Not really, no.  What is called the `AI community' today is pretty different from what it was thirty years ago.
2017-11-04T16:58:12Z teurastaja: any srfi about constant/scalar/vector/matrix/tensor algebra?
2017-11-04T16:58:27Z Riastradh: Not that I know of, but I haven't paid attention to SRFIs in a while.
2017-11-04T16:59:25Z teurastaja: if anyones motivated enough ill work on it
2017-11-04T17:00:25Z teurastaja: scheme is so good for AI it sucks it doesnt support modern AI
2017-11-04T17:02:11Z wasamasa: so it's not good for AI, huh
2017-11-04T17:04:22Z wasamasa: considering that tons of SRFIs come with portable reference implementations, it's no surprise something as oddly specific as tensor processing hasn't been submitted
2017-11-04T17:04:45Z wasamasa: I don't see why it should be implemented by more people than just you
2017-11-04T17:05:01Z wasamasa: why not write a binding for your preferred scheme system?
2017-11-04T17:05:39Z Riastradh: teurastaja: Step #1 is to just do it.  The word `SRFI' doesn't become relevant until maybe step #4173.
2017-11-04T17:06:20Z wasamasa: don't forget that SRFIs tend to be about things generally considered useful, such as sockets
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2017-11-04T17:06:59Z Riastradh: (And then probably only because you want to use something that is in a SRFI, not because a neural network library is the appropriate for the domain of SRFIs.  Maybe, as a stretch, a BLAS or LAPACK SRFI might be -- but you still have to just do it first.)
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2017-11-04T17:40:04Z mauritslamers: hey all, I have a question about case (GUILE), for some reason it doesn't do what I expect it to do... https://gist.github.com/mauritslamers/47094814d843bd7078de10593d0a882c
2017-11-04T17:40:12Z mauritslamers: for some reason this case returns unspecified
2017-11-04T17:41:06Z mauritslamers: (had to use some other pastie-service as paste.lisp.org is discontinued or disabled for the moment)
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2017-11-04T17:43:17Z wasamasa: um, what does case use for comparison?
2017-11-04T17:44:02Z wasamasa: if it's eqv? you dun goofed
2017-11-04T17:44:25Z mauritslamers: yep, it is eqv?
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2017-11-04T17:44:49Z mauritslamers: So, it means that I cannot compare strings this way?
2017-11-04T17:45:00Z mauritslamers: and simply have to use either cond or if?
2017-11-04T17:45:08Z wasamasa: yup, it's only good for symbols and numbers
2017-11-04T17:45:20Z wasamasa: use cond :>
2017-11-04T17:45:25Z mauritslamers: ok, thanks a lot :)
2017-11-04T17:45:34Z mauritslamers: saves me hours of banging my head !
2017-11-04T17:45:41Z wasamasa: or if your scheme allows picking a custom comparator...
2017-11-04T17:46:00Z wasamasa: clojure has the condp macro for that problem
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2017-11-04T18:01:31Z mauritslamers: wasamasa: I am stuck with guile as it has to run as part of the Lilypond project
2017-11-04T18:02:16Z wasamasa: sure, but maybe guile does have something to alleviate a problem
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2017-11-04T18:46:49Z aeth: Imo, it's a bit of an oversight that there isn't usually a case that takes in a test procedure. Especially for char=? since that seems to be pretty common for recursively handling certain strings. It's probably the most common missing thing.
2017-11-04T18:46:54Z aeth: Even Common Lisp doesn't have it.
2017-11-04T18:49:18Z aeth: It looks like Racket's case uses equal? to avoid this, but that is less efficient than just having a more advanced case macro that takes in an extra parameter, one procedure.
2017-11-04T18:49:31Z aeth: Fortunately, it's not a difficult macro to write.
2017-11-04T18:50:48Z wasamasa: I'm pretty sure eqv? can handle chars
2017-11-04T18:51:49Z aeth: Hmm, I think I misspoke, and meant substrings.
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2017-11-04T20:30:53Z Murii: What's really the advantage of using append instead of cons?
2017-11-04T20:31:55Z wasamasa: try appending a list to another one with cons
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2017-11-04T20:33:13Z Murii: https://hastebin.com/votaxacova.lisp , wasamasa
2017-11-04T20:33:37Z wasamasa: as you can see, cons prepends a thing to a list
2017-11-04T20:33:48Z wasamasa: append concatenates two (or more) lists
2017-11-04T20:34:04Z wasamasa: the result of (append a b) is (a b c d)
2017-11-04T20:34:32Z Murii: I've been trying to make that function work the whole day
2017-11-04T20:35:17Z Murii: any advices on how I should make it?
2017-11-04T20:35:33Z wasamasa: you could take a look at other lisp implementations
2017-11-04T20:35:52Z Murii: hm,yeah,I could
2017-11-04T20:47:14Z wasamasa: for SICP I've used (define (append seq1 seq2) (accumulate cons seq2 seq1))
2017-11-04T20:47:27Z wasamasa: with accumulate being their name for fold-right
2017-11-04T20:50:40Z wasamasa: the expansion of that would be (define (my-append seq1 seq2) (if (null? seq1) seq2 (cons (car seq1) (my-append (cdr seq1) seq2))))
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2017-11-04T20:55:36Z Murii: wasamasa, jesus man!
2017-11-04T20:55:38Z Murii: Thanks a lot !
2017-11-04T20:56:05Z wasamasa: note that the reason languages do it in native code is because that can avoid needless recursion
2017-11-04T20:56:08Z Murii: I'm going to add you to the credits for this!
2017-11-04T20:56:20Z Murii: I'll translate this in C
2017-11-04T20:57:10Z wasamasa: if you found this interesting, I can recommend doing the exercises of a scheme book, like The Little Schemer (lots of recursion exercises) or SICP (the same, but for computation)
2017-11-04T20:59:33Z Murii: I'll look for the PDFs
2017-11-04T20:59:59Z wasamasa: https://github.com/shirok/Gauche/blob/master/src/list.c
2017-11-04T21:00:04Z wasamasa: this is surprisingly readable code
2017-11-04T21:01:10Z wasamasa: the rest being defined in https://github.com/shirok/Gauche/blob/master/src/gauche.h#L1072
2017-11-04T21:03:28Z Murii: alright, that should do it
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2017-11-04T22:06:35Z Murii: alright, that should do it
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2017-11-04T22:30:31Z mauritslamers: is it possible to look ahead in a list from a function mapping over that list? I need to be able to start at the current point in the list, walk forward until I found some other element, counting elements and then taking a decision what to return based on that count.
2017-11-04T22:31:39Z mauritslamers: In javascript (my main language) this is rather easy because the procedure performing the action on the list item gets both the full array as the index of the current item as part of the arguments to that procedure...
2017-11-04T22:32:13Z mauritslamers: that doesn't seem to be the case for map in Guile, is it?
2017-11-04T22:32:56Z wasamasa: you could always write your own
2017-11-04T22:33:07Z wasamasa: or cdr down the list
2017-11-04T22:34:16Z wasamasa: or use named let to increment a counter and cdr down the list
2017-11-04T22:34:18Z takitus: mauritslamers: (if (foo? (cadr rest)) (<return something>) (<keep looping>)) something like that?
2017-11-04T22:34:49Z qu1j0t3: sounds like a fold
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2017-11-04T22:35:06Z qu1j0t3: or, yeah, explicit recursion
2017-11-04T22:35:15Z mauritslamers: my main problem is anyway that I am most likely writing JS which just looks like scheme ;-)
2017-11-04T22:35:23Z wasamasa: it's hard to tell without having a full example
2017-11-04T22:35:25Z qu1j0t3: not a bad thing
2017-11-04T22:35:33Z mauritslamers: in any case, the point is that i have an event list
2017-11-04T22:35:48Z wasamasa: keep in mind that in JS it's a random-access array and in scheme you're dealing with a linked list
2017-11-04T22:35:49Z mauritslamers: this event list is a list of assoc lists
2017-11-04T22:35:55Z mauritslamers: wasamasa: I know
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2017-11-04T22:39:14Z mauritslamers: This event list contains musical information, and contains notes and slurs... in graphical notation you see that the note and the slur start simultaneously, but in events the slur starts after the note, and the slur also ends after the note which is the last note within that slur. The problem I have, is that I have to convert it to a different kind of scheme, in which signs are put between the notes within the slur
2017-11-04T22:39:40Z mauritslamers: I use a map-in-order to walk through the event list
2017-11-04T22:40:13Z mauritslamers: when I deal with the slur start, it is easy, I can simply put a slur sign out, and it will come after the previous event which is a note
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2017-11-04T22:40:46Z mauritslamers: however, when I end the slur, the note before doesn't know yet the slur will end, so it will add a tail slur sign, which should not be there
2017-11-04T22:40:57Z mauritslamers: (one part of the lookup)
2017-11-04T22:41:17Z mauritslamers: So, how can I "foresee" that the note is the last one within the slur?
2017-11-04T22:41:48Z mauritslamers: or, would it be possible to keep a reference to the last list I returned, and change it after the fact?
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2017-11-04T22:42:45Z takitus: When you hit the slur start, you could map over the (take-while (not (slur-end? p)) events), since that's all the events within the slur.
2017-11-04T22:42:47Z mauritslamers: in JS this is possible as everything is done by reference, so when I return something from a map function, and I retain a reference through some form of closure, I can still change it, even if it is part of a different object of some sort (such as an array)
2017-11-04T22:43:28Z takitus: Sorry, (lambda (p) (not (slur-end? p))), I mean
2017-11-04T22:43:44Z mauritslamers: takitus: that assumes that there is only one slur-end in the events list...
2017-11-04T22:44:06Z mauritslamers: there might be more, I need to be able to start from where I am now, which can be anywhere in that event list
2017-11-04T22:44:08Z takitus: Right, they can be nested.
2017-11-04T22:44:19Z mauritslamers: luckliy not nested :)
2017-11-04T22:45:11Z mauritslamers: but I mean that you can have an event list which has many slurs, ( note slur-start note note slur-end note note note slur-start note slur-end)
2017-11-04T22:45:28Z mauritslamers: so, when I hit the second slur-start, I should not find the first slur-end, but the last one
2017-11-04T22:46:17Z takitus: But if they're properly paired, it should be easy to recurse each time you hit slur-start, right?
2017-11-04T22:46:39Z mauritslamers: yes, think so...
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2017-11-04T22:48:32Z takitus: Maybe the event list could be mapped to a nested list with the slur-start/ends stripped out. Might be easier to work with, since you're already dealing with hierarchical data.
2017-11-04T22:48:54Z mauritslamers: the event list is a flat list in the end
2017-11-04T22:49:29Z mauritslamers: it seems like member could be of service... if I can get a list starting from the current event, it should be easy to walk to the next slur-end
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2017-11-05T01:15:09Z jcob: Hey guys, lately I've been using a "maybe" type sorta like haskell (disclaimer: I dont really know haskell), and its working really well, but its starting to get unweildy
2017-11-05T01:15:25Z jcob: sample: https://hastebin.com/wemexitisu.lisp
2017-11-05T01:15:58Z jcob: so I was wondering if its possible to do like haskell (again i dont know any haskell) a do notation sorta thing to make coding with it shorter
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2017-11-05T01:17:19Z jcob: So like, to explain further, if i have a function that can fail I do: (define (functionthatcanfail) (lambda (some none) (if results-are-good (some "these are sucessful results") (none))))
2017-11-05T01:17:45Z jcob: but it gets unweildy when I want to make a sort of pipeline along the "some" and "none
2017-11-05T01:17:47Z jcob:  paths
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2017-11-05T02:10:08Z pierpa: make it return #f on failure and use AND to make the pipeline
2017-11-05T02:10:43Z pierpa: hmmm
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2017-11-05T15:07:04Z mauritslamers: question: I am trying to deal with localized state... meaning not a global state but a state which determines a few things about what a function should give back exactly. I am going through an event list and currently have a big case statement dealing with all the events. I am wondering about how to make it smaller in size. One of the ideas I have is that I create a single assoc list which contains the current state (or an object), give that
2017-11-05T15:07:04Z mauritslamers: list or object to a function.
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2017-11-05T15:07:59Z mauritslamers: now my question is: if in the function I change something to this alist I gave along to that function, would this change also be reflected in the main function where this function is called from?
2017-11-05T15:08:13Z wasamasa: it depends on what you use to change it
2017-11-05T15:08:24Z wasamasa: set! is no problem, set-car!/set-cdr! is
2017-11-05T15:09:52Z wasamasa: I do this kind of thing to make a named let loop less complicated: https://github.com/wasamasa/waka/blob/master/waka#L557
2017-11-05T15:10:06Z wasamasa: it doesn't handle slurs yet, but that shouldn't be complicated at all :>
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2017-11-05T15:15:29Z mauritslamers: hehe, managed to get the slurs working :)
2017-11-05T15:20:40Z mauritslamers: wasamasa: did you ever look at Lilypond?
2017-11-05T15:20:55Z wasamasa: I always get this question
2017-11-05T15:21:12Z wasamasa: the point of this thing is being the polar opposite of lilypond
2017-11-05T15:21:38Z wasamasa: it just happens to have a script for exporting to lilypond for graphical debugging
2017-11-05T15:22:01Z wasamasa: https://github.com/wasamasa/chicken-in-the-forest/blob/master/waka.org
2017-11-05T15:24:02Z mauritslamers: wasamasa: that is not why I asked it... I was curious whether for the design of what you wrote you had a look at the way lilypond handles the musical information
2017-11-05T15:26:11Z mauritslamers: wasamasa: going back to the original question: if I use a list and use object properties as created with (make-object-property) that should also work, yes?
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2017-11-05T16:38:36Z user24: Hey! Is there some Lisp out there that has some sort of resource limited function or continuation call? Such that control is returned to the caller once a resource is exhausted (cpu time, memory etc.)
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2017-11-05T16:42:24Z Riastradh: Racket has, or at least used to have, something like that.
2017-11-05T16:45:50Z user24: The custodians, right?
2017-11-05T16:46:51Z Riastradh: Yes.
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2017-11-05T16:51:13Z amz3`: user24: GNU Guile has sandbox
2017-11-05T16:51:39Z amz3`: as extra-ordinar it may look
2017-11-05T16:52:51Z amz3`: https://www.gnu.org/software/guile/manual/html_node/Sandboxed-Evaluation.html
2017-11-05T16:56:22Z wasamasa: mauritslamers: not at all, the linked slides explain what I've used as basis
2017-11-05T16:57:26Z user24: Riastradh, amz3`: thank you!
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2017-11-05T23:10:03Z noobly: for some reason, "define" is unrecognized on my racket interpreter?
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2017-11-06T04:16:11Z jusss: anyone use racket? what is contract?
2017-11-06T04:16:21Z jusss: I'm so confused
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2017-11-06T07:52:29Z Badoop: Hello :). I have a question. I'm trying to create a function to perform math on characters. I came up with this: (define char-math (lambda (f . chars) (append (list f) (map char->integer chars))). However, that returns (#<procedure:+> 97 98). How can I actually execute this list?)
2017-11-06T07:53:35Z ecraven: Badoop: (append (list f) ...) just creates a list. if you want to actually apply the function to the chars, try (apply f ...)
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2017-11-06T07:58:44Z Badoop: ecraven: Exactly what I was looking for, thank you. Now I just need to figure out how to ensure char->integer isn't applied on non-characters. Perhaps a wrapper function...
2017-11-06T08:00:11Z jusss: hello, anyone can tell me what is contract in racket? I dont understand
2017-11-06T08:01:59Z wasamasa: what exactly don't you understand?
2017-11-06T08:02:06Z wasamasa: are you aware of assertions?
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2017-11-06T08:23:12Z ecraven: Badoop: maybe something involving 'filter'?
2017-11-06T08:24:18Z Badoop: I tried this as a proof of concept, it works: (define char->integer-safe (lambda (c)(if (char? c) (char->integer c) c)))
2017-11-06T08:24:57Z Badoop: Could that solution be improved?
2017-11-06T08:25:34Z ecraven: well, that won't exactly solve your problem, (+ 1 2 3 'foo) will still fail.
2017-11-06T08:25:42Z ecraven: you might want to just remove every non-character before passing them to f
2017-11-06T08:27:05Z Badoop: Good catch. I'll remove things that are non-char and non-numeric -- I'd still like to add 1 and #\a to get #\b
2017-11-06T08:27:23Z ecraven: that should work fine
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2017-11-06T08:29:25Z jusss: wasamasa: what is contract? and what it returns?
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2017-11-06T08:31:28Z jusss: (-> numbet? number?)
2017-11-06T08:31:37Z jusss: what this mean?
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2017-11-06T08:35:03Z ecraven: it means this function takes a number and returns a number, I'm guessing
2017-11-06T08:35:19Z ecraven: it is a function from number to number... number -> number ... (-> number? number?)
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2017-11-06T08:44:14Z jusss: its a contract
2017-11-06T08:44:42Z jusss: https://docs.racket-lang.org/reference/data-structure-contracts.html#%28def._%28%28lib._racket%2Fcontract%2Fprivate%2Fmisc..rkt%29._any%2Fc%29%29
2017-11-06T08:44:48Z rudybot: http://teensy.info/8uXsSCQeUU
2017-11-06T08:44:48Z ecraven: the contract applies to a function
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2017-11-06T08:47:24Z Badoop: Ouch, R5RS does not include filter
2017-11-06T08:47:25Z jusss: it does check parametets  type of function
2017-11-06T08:48:19Z ecraven: Badoop: srfi-1
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2017-11-06T08:57:54Z Badoop: (filter even? '(1 2 3 4)) returns (2 4) as expected, but how would I compose more complex rules? Something that would behave how (filter (or even? odd?) '(1 2 3 4)) might be expected to
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2017-11-06T09:07:34Z GreaseMonkey: i'm about to head to bed but you could possibly write a function, say 'func-or, which basically does the logical or of the functions you feed in
2017-11-06T09:09:29Z GreaseMonkey: (define func-or funcs (lambda (x) (let loop ((p funcs)) (cond ((null? p) #f) (((car p) x) #t) (else (loop (cdr p)))))))
2017-11-06T09:09:35Z GreaseMonkey: note, haven't checked that
2017-11-06T09:09:48Z GreaseMonkey: i would strongly recommend pretty-printing that
2017-11-06T09:09:51Z GreaseMonkey: gnight
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2017-11-06T09:16:50Z wasamasa: jusss: there isn't much sense talking to you if you can't even answer basic questions
2017-11-06T09:17:22Z wasamasa: jusss: why would someone go through explaining you what something is if you're not answering their questions?
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2017-11-06T23:26:09Z Ober: is there an equivalent #\space for \n?
2017-11-06T23:28:32Z Ober: ahh newline
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2017-11-06T23:48:21Z pflanze: Hi. Is there a function that takes a list of length n and returns a new list of length n-1 with a binary function applied to consecutive elements?
2017-11-06T23:49:14Z pflanze: (foo - '(3 4 3 1 10)) => '(-1 1 2 -9)
2017-11-06T23:49:27Z gwatt: I don't think so.
2017-11-06T23:49:28Z pflanze: or something along these lines.
2017-11-06T23:49:45Z gwatt: Maybe a srfi something to do that
2017-11-06T23:50:04Z pflanze: Nothing in SRFI-1 unless I'm blind.
2017-11-06T23:50:26Z gwatt: did you look at other 160 srfis ;-p
2017-11-06T23:51:03Z pflanze: I'm not aware of another list library but let me check.
2017-11-06T23:51:08Z gwatt: Should be pretty easy to write though
2017-11-06T23:51:45Z gwatt: Yeah, no worries. I was being flippant
2017-11-06T23:52:47Z pflanze: OK there's SRFI-101  random-access pairs and lists, and SRFI-116 Immutable List Library, checking.
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2017-11-06T23:53:05Z gwatt: Neither of those sound promising
2017-11-06T23:53:25Z fizzie: SRFI-1's map (which stops when the shortest list ends) would allow you to just write (map f a (cdr a)).
2017-11-06T23:53:47Z gwatt: oh yeah
2017-11-06T23:53:52Z pflanze: Good point.
2017-11-06T23:54:08Z fizzie: (R5RS map requires lists of equal length, which is less convenient.)
2017-11-06T23:56:27Z gwatt: I think 6 and 7 require that as well
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2017-11-07T00:03:20Z fizzie: Looks like at least R7RS has adopted the SRFI-1 behavior. "If more than one /list/ is given and not all lists have the same length, `map` terminates when the shortest ilst runs out."
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2017-11-07T00:05:32Z pierpa: pflanze: Common Lisp has this function (called REDUCE there). I'd look in libraries for CL emulation.
2017-11-07T00:06:54Z pierpa: well, almost. You have to cons up the list yourself
2017-11-07T00:08:41Z gwatt: well, in CL once you start doing anything fancy I think you use loop
2017-11-07T00:11:23Z pflanze: srfi-1 has a |reduce|, too. That won't work easily though.
2017-11-07T00:11:59Z pflanze: The function passed as the parameter needs access to the *original* list, not the result.
2017-11-07T00:15:27Z pierpa: something like: (reduce (lambda (acc x) (cons (op x (first acc)) acc)) seq) ; not tested
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2017-11-07T00:16:47Z gwatt: I don't *think* that will work
2017-11-07T00:16:50Z pierpa: (and probably wrong)
2017-11-07T00:18:53Z pflanze: pierpa, at least with srfi-1's (and Clojure's) understanding of reduce, which is just a thin wrapper around fold, this can't work,
2017-11-07T00:19:08Z pflanze: as acc will contain the result, not the input, of the previous calculation.
2017-11-07T00:19:54Z pflanze: The lambda only ever sees one source element (in x), the other is *part* of acc but it can't tell what part of it.
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2017-11-07T00:20:39Z pflanze: You'd have to use something like add the previous original element to acc as well, but then it needs post processing and gets very ugly.
2017-11-07T00:21:14Z pflanze: (with "add" meaning, wrap up in a pair that you unwrap again in the lambda)
2017-11-07T00:21:22Z gwatt: yeah, that's gross
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2017-11-07T00:25:31Z dpk: is Chez Scheme R7RS compatible yet?
2017-11-07T00:25:43Z dpk: (for define-library etc)
2017-11-07T00:25:48Z gwatt: nope
2017-11-07T00:30:57Z pflanze: pierpa, this works, but as I said... : (def (map-adjacent f l) (reverse (cdr (fold (lambda (x acc) (cons x (cons (f (car acc) x) (cdr acc)))) (cons (car l) '()) (cdr l)))))
2017-11-07T00:32:27Z gwatt: Why not manually recurse over the list?
2017-11-07T00:32:42Z pflanze: Sure, that was just to prove the point.
2017-11-07T00:32:45Z gwatt: ah, ok
2017-11-07T00:33:07Z pflanze: Basically I was hoping for enrich my vocabulary with some existing function name(s).
2017-11-07T00:33:19Z gwatt: ah
2017-11-07T00:34:45Z gwatt: well, srfi-1 map is your best bet
2017-11-07T00:35:04Z pflanze: Interestingly the Haskellers couldn't give me a name either and basically brought up the srfi-1 map thing (via zipWith)
2017-11-07T00:35:36Z gwatt: yeah, that makes sense
2017-11-07T00:39:17Z pflanze: (Haskell:  mapAdjacent f l = zipWith f (tail l) l )
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2017-11-07T00:40:28Z gwatt: shouldn't the (tail l) be the second argument?
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2017-11-07T00:42:33Z pflanze: Weirdly no, seems like zipWith passes the elements to f in flipped order.
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2017-11-07T00:44:00Z pflanze: Actually no, I'm confused myself:  http://hackage.haskell.org/package/base-4.10.0.0/docs/src/GHC.List.html#zipWith
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2017-11-07T00:51:05Z pflanze: ehr, I was confusing myself, you're right.
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2017-11-07T04:26:23Z Ober: is there lazy way to do this? https://gist.github.com/278e110fd82e1692079b27e8415632b7 so that data is not fully decompressed into memory at once?
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2017-11-07T11:06:47Z jusss: #lang is not enabled in current context, what's wrong with my racket?
2017-11-07T11:09:14Z greatscottttt: jusss: maybe #racket can help you out?
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2017-11-07T21:46:50Z Fare:  Hi. Does anyone here use protobuf? Which library do you use? Do you have examples to share?
2017-11-07T21:48:37Z Ober: Fare: any chance a port of your memoization is in the works for scheme?
2017-11-07T21:49:58Z Riastradh: Fare: I use this one: https://mumble.net/~campbell/hg/picopb/ ...but I guess that's probably not of interest to you!
2017-11-07T21:50:17Z wasamasa: people use protobuf willingly?
2017-11-07T21:50:50Z Riastradh: It's a nice simple schema language and wire format for the straightforward data structures that most network protocols need.
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2017-11-07T21:56:40Z C-Keen: protobuf is really nice
2017-11-07T21:56:45Z Fare: wasamasa, for some variant of "willingly".
2017-11-07T21:56:55Z C-Keen: wasamasa: murphy wrote a chicken compiler extension for it
2017-11-07T21:57:04Z Fare: wasamasa, what do you use for wire formats?
2017-11-07T21:57:07Z wasamasa: so far I ran into people who didn't like it at all
2017-11-07T21:57:26Z wasamasa: Fare: s-expressions, duh
2017-11-07T21:57:47Z C-Keen: wasamasa: well it is no silver bullet
2017-11-07T21:58:05Z C-Keen: wasamasa: what people often forget is that you need to explicitly handle protocol versioning etc
2017-11-07T21:58:29Z wasamasa: the last complaint I recall was about google's own implementation being terribad
2017-11-07T21:59:18Z Riastradh: wasamasa: Well, there's a reason I cited a different implementation...
2017-11-07T22:00:16Z C-Keen: wasamasa: that is true imho
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2017-11-07T22:05:23Z jcowan: I've been looking at Capn Proto instead
2017-11-07T22:05:35Z jcowan: which is basically protobufs 3.0 after the author left Google
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2017-11-07T22:08:17Z Riastradh: capnproto is a second-system-effect for much more complicated data structures, usually far more complicated than you need or want in a network protocol on the wire.
2017-11-07T22:08:53Z Riastradh: (That doesn't mean it doesn't have advantages for some applications, of course.)
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2017-11-07T22:25:05Z ecraven: I've been wondering how well something like erlang binaries would work for reading/writing binary data (like network protocol frames)
2017-11-07T22:29:46Z wasamasa: or the rebol/red parse dialect for binary data
2017-11-07T22:29:54Z jcowan: Riastradh: No doubt, but it is also faster, at least in languages with direct access to blobs
2017-11-07T22:30:01Z wasamasa: I've only tried it on strings so far
2017-11-07T22:31:24Z ecraven: hm.. this has actually become more interesting again, now that r7rs has binary ports and vectors
2017-11-07T22:37:20Z jcowan nods
2017-11-07T22:37:28Z jcowan: I was thinking of a CapnProto-compatible SRFI
2017-11-07T22:37:36Z jcowan: probably not the whole thing, just whatever parts make sense
2017-11-07T22:38:41Z jcowan: I had some sketches for JSON and MicroXML SRFIs, but they were on paper and I can't *@#*$* find them.
2017-11-07T22:38:59Z jcowan: Somewhere in my messy apartment, but I am hopeless at finding things.
2017-11-07T22:48:45Z C-Keen: ecraven: yes I wished for something like that on several occasions now
2017-11-07T22:49:04Z C-Keen: but I couldn't come up with a satisfying syntax
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2017-11-07T23:39:58Z Riastradh: jcowan: It's possible, but I have to wonder how much benefit that is when you're talking about sending out network packets.  What's the relative cost of decoding a protobuf varint versus transmitting 8 bytes in an ethernet frame?
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2017-11-07T23:59:14Z turtleman: Hi, do you think a SRFI for optional type annotations is a good idea/useful to you? They would be similar to the annotations used in Typed Racket.
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2017-11-08T00:00:08Z turtleman: I am trying to see whether I should just make a type-checker and use annotations for myself, or try to get it published.
2017-11-08T00:00:36Z turtleman: The annotation syntax, that is.
2017-11-08T00:00:49Z turtleman: The syntax itself would be ignored during runtime.
2017-11-08T00:01:45Z turtleman: https://docs.racket-lang.org/ts-guide/types.html for reference.
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2017-11-08T00:02:11Z turtleman: I found the SRFI for "assume" which I suppose covers a similar use-case, so idk if this is redundant.
2017-11-08T00:04:39Z gwatt: I feel like that would require a radical redesign of most schemes
2017-11-08T00:04:50Z turtleman: ?
2017-11-08T00:04:57Z turtleman: It has zero runtime impact
2017-11-08T00:05:13Z turtleman: (define-syntax |:| (syntax-rules () ((_ . rest) (quote rest))))
2017-11-08T00:05:15Z turtleman: or something like that
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2017-11-08T00:05:34Z turtleman: I'm not implementing true static types, just annotations for improved static analysis.
2017-11-08T00:05:38Z turtleman: I was inspired by mypy..
2017-11-08T00:05:40Z turtleman: *mypy.
2017-11-08T00:05:41Z gwatt: I made a macro that does predicate checking and allows for default arguments
2017-11-08T00:05:50Z gwatt: but requires r6rs
2017-11-08T00:06:06Z turtleman: Is it online? That sounds interesting
2017-11-08T00:06:15Z Riastradh: turtleman: Generally, the answer to `do you think a SRFI for X is a good idea?' is probably `no', but the answer to `should I experiment with X?' is much more likely to be `yes'.
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2017-11-08T00:06:35Z turtleman: Riastradh: Yeah that's what I was thinking
2017-11-08T00:06:38Z gwatt: turtleman: https://github.com/gwatt/chez-net/blob/master/fn.ss
2017-11-08T00:06:39Z turtleman: kind of getting ahead of myself
2017-11-08T00:07:04Z gwatt: So it technically requires ChezScheme, but only for errorf
2017-11-08T00:07:20Z turtleman: I just want Scheme to feel "industry grade" with type annotations :P
2017-11-08T00:08:03Z turtleman: Again, same reason Python introduced them.
2017-11-08T00:08:25Z gwatt: I think the reason for type annotations is to allow for static type checking, not to "feel industry grade"
2017-11-08T00:08:26Z turtleman: But yeah, I am still figuring out how the heck unions and parametric types and recursive types work
2017-11-08T00:08:32Z turtleman: gwatt: of course
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2017-11-08T00:08:44Z turtleman: static type checking --> industry grade
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2017-11-08T00:11:06Z turtleman: hmm
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2017-11-08T00:11:21Z turtleman: but yeah, I will continue playing with it and experimenting.
2017-11-08T00:11:36Z turtleman: I like Scheme a lot and have been thinking it would be nice if more companies used it.
2017-11-08T00:11:40Z turtleman: that's all
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2017-11-08T00:13:32Z gwatt: which scheme?
2017-11-08T00:14:00Z turtleman: Any, really. I could see it happening with Racket
2017-11-08T00:14:13Z gwatt: Racket is probably the best bet
2017-11-08T00:14:42Z turtleman: Right now I use Gauche but I'm not partial to it. I just found it's faster than most others I've tried
2017-11-08T00:15:17Z turtleman: Once Guile implements "define-library" I will probably switch to that.
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2017-11-08T01:06:05Z mejja: turtleman: Have you seen this? https://ecraven.github.io/r7rs-benchmarks/
2017-11-08T01:07:00Z turtleman: yes, i have seen it before
2017-11-08T01:07:27Z turtleman: i see three classes basically: compile-to-c, bytecode-interpreted, and plain-interpreted
2017-11-08T01:07:31Z turtleman: more or less
2017-11-08T01:07:40Z turtleman: i think chez might actually be bytecode, not sure
2017-11-08T01:08:30Z turtleman: MIT is good, and they do plan to implement define-syntax (one day)
2017-11-08T01:08:37Z turtleman: i didnt know MIT was that good actually.
2017-11-08T01:09:04Z Riastradh: ?
2017-11-08T01:09:08Z mejja: Chez is a native compiler. Like Larceny and MIT and ..
2017-11-08T01:09:16Z Riastradh: MIT Scheme has had define-syntax for decades.
2017-11-08T01:09:26Z turtleman: sorry
2017-11-08T01:09:28Z turtleman: i meant define-library
2017-11-08T01:09:30Z turtleman: haha
2017-11-08T01:09:33Z turtleman: >.<
2017-11-08T01:09:42Z turtleman: very different!
2017-11-08T01:10:16Z turtleman: I am not very familiar with MIT, in my head it was bytecode
2017-11-08T01:10:49Z turtleman: So yeah, very roughly it falls in those three classes.
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2017-11-08T04:46:51Z Ober: how does one test equality of a variable to a symbol?
2017-11-08T04:47:18Z Ober: e.g (define foo bar:) (eq foo bar:)
2017-11-08T04:47:57Z Ober: ahh equal?
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2017-11-08T06:41:17Z ecraven: jcowan: those sound great! I hope you find them :D
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2017-11-08T08:06:34Z Badork: Hello everyone. I'm using R5RS on Dr. Racket, and it seems read-line (to read input from the console) is undefined. Is it under a different name, or if not, where can I find more information about how to implement it myself? I'm a bit of a novice.
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2017-11-08T08:26:38Z pjb: Badork: in r5rs, you only have read-char. Use it to implement read-line.
2017-11-08T08:26:56Z pjb: Remember, scheme is a pedagogical programming language: it has a lot of holes, so that students can learn implementing them.
2017-11-08T08:27:29Z pjb: or perhaps you can use some library?
2017-11-08T08:28:52Z Badork: pjb: I can appreciate that, I'm absolutely trying to learn the ropes haha. How could I begin the implementation? From my understanding, read-char accepts one and only 1 character -- if multiple are entered, it grabs only the first, correct?
2017-11-08T08:29:07Z pjb: yes.
2017-11-08T08:29:14Z pjb: what is a line?
2017-11-08T08:29:43Z Badork: Hm. A list of characters terminating in a #\newline?
2017-11-08T08:29:50Z pjb: ok.
2017-11-08T08:29:58Z pjb: So how would you implement read-line?
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2017-11-08T08:30:33Z pjb: list = loop; terminating in a #\newline? = stop condition.
2017-11-08T08:31:50Z Badork: Correct, but doesn't read-char toss the, well, cdr of the input? If I entered "Hello" I understand that read-char will take #\H and drop the rest
2017-11-08T08:32:05Z pjb: nope.
2017-11-08T08:32:32Z pjb: Try it: (list (read-char) (read-char) (read-char))  and type hello RET
2017-11-08T08:33:17Z Badork: Very interesting. It seems I was completely wrong
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2017-11-08T08:35:55Z Badork: So what I'll want to do is read a character -- if it's not a newline, add it to an ongoing list. If it is, return the list.
2017-11-08T08:36:11Z pjb: yes.
2017-11-08T08:36:33Z pjb: also scheme as a string type, so you could use strings instead of lists to store the line.
2017-11-08T08:36:44Z Badork: Good point
2017-11-08T08:37:00Z pjb: but in that case, you need to deal with the variable length of lines.
2017-11-08T08:37:14Z Badork: What would be a good way to store the results of read-line in a constant so that I can make the comparison and the concatenation?
2017-11-08T08:37:19Z Badork: *of read-char
2017-11-08T08:37:35Z pjb: (let ((next-char (read-char))) …)
2017-11-08T08:37:46Z pjb: read r5rs, it's less than 50 pages.
2017-11-08T08:38:31Z Badork: Will do. Thank you for your help :)
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2017-11-08T08:57:00Z ecraven: also, (list a b c) may evaluate c before b or a. the order is not specified (and indeed some implementations don't evaluate from left to right, unlike CL)
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2017-11-08T20:43:23Z Ober: any reason for keyword: instead of :keyword?
2017-11-08T20:44:02Z C-Keen: I think keyword: is just an alias for #:keyword
2017-11-08T20:44:05Z wasamasa: that's up to the implementation, really
2017-11-08T20:44:13Z wasamasa: keywords are not part of any scheme spec I know of
2017-11-08T20:44:22Z Ober: oh just wondered if there was a reasoning behind it.
2017-11-08T20:44:26Z Ober: ok
2017-11-08T20:46:55Z C-Keen: ah right
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2017-11-08T21:04:41Z aeth: with keyword: you can pretend you have an infix language since some infix languages have "key : value" in their syntax
2017-11-08T21:05:13Z aeth: sort of like Common Lisp's 1+, e.g. (1+ 1)
2017-11-08T21:05:25Z wasamasa: ruby manages to have both
2017-11-08T21:05:25Z C-Keen: some macros do that
2017-11-08T21:06:34Z user51: is it impossible to define something inside a define?
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2017-11-08T21:07:00Z aeth: as in, define a function within a function?
2017-11-08T21:07:04Z aeth: That's not portable.
2017-11-08T21:07:05Z aeth: iirc
2017-11-08T21:07:14Z aeth: At least, if you mean a new global function
2017-11-08T21:07:17Z user51: not a problem, doing it for sicp exercise 1.3
2017-11-08T21:07:33Z C-Keen: internal defines are perfectly fine IIRC
2017-11-08T21:07:39Z wasamasa: if you're speaking about defining a new globally bound thing, you'll need a macro for that effect
2017-11-08T21:07:53Z wasamasa: a define inside a define is interpreted as a local definition
2017-11-08T21:08:06Z C-Keen: of course
2017-11-08T21:08:12Z aeth: C-Keen: Internal defines are basically syntactic sugar over let* (actually, not let*, something similar to let*, though) iirc
2017-11-08T21:08:20Z C-Keen: oh I probably have read that too literally
2017-11-08T21:08:22Z DGASAU: (With a "keyword:" you can pretend you're using Smalltalk instead of Scheme...)
2017-11-08T21:08:27Z C-Keen: aeth: I know
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2017-11-08T21:08:59Z DGASAU: jcowan: what do you call "MicroXML"?
2017-11-08T21:09:11Z DGASAU: Some subset of XML?
2017-11-08T21:09:36Z user51: hmm
2017-11-08T21:09:44Z user51: i think my syntax was wrong
2017-11-08T21:09:59Z aeth: C-Keen: Right, so I interpreted the ambiguous question to be about global defines since local defines are obvious. I could've been mistaken.
2017-11-08T21:10:32Z C-Keen: aeth: no you are probably correct :)
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2017-11-08T21:11:03Z user51: aeth: thanks, i since edited the code but i suppose my syntax was wrong
2017-11-08T21:11:08Z wasamasa: aeth: how is R7RS in CL going?
2017-11-08T21:12:40Z jcowan: Yes, but it is not I but the W3C who calls it that
2017-11-08T21:12:42Z DGASAU still wishes to understand why people still strive to have human-readable serialization format...
2017-11-08T21:13:00Z jcowan: XML is a document format and only incidentally a serialization format
2017-11-08T21:13:15Z pjb: Easier to debug.  Also provides a level of compression for free.
2017-11-08T21:13:20Z pjb: (compared to a binary format)
2017-11-08T21:13:45Z user51: i thought xml was bad
2017-11-08T21:13:56Z jcowan: https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/microxml/raw-file/tip/spec/microxml.html  <-- about 20% the size of the XML spec, and includes a data model as well (in JSON)
2017-11-08T21:13:57Z wasamasa: DGASAU: it's because people are afraid of debugging tools for their binary formats
2017-11-08T21:13:57Z DGASAU: pjb: Personally, I don't see how it is easier to debug.
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2017-11-08T21:16:59Z DGASAU: wasamasa: I don't understand what you might be afraid of debugging in simple BER-like format...
2017-11-08T21:17:31Z wasamasa: there's this saying that HTTP1 is like having the web in debug mode
2017-11-08T21:18:21Z DGASAU: I'd say that all there teletype style protocols should be killed.
2017-11-08T21:18:45Z wasamasa: or how evil systemd's binary log is
2017-11-08T21:19:47Z DGASAU wonders why nobody complains at Postgres storing data not in textual form...
2017-11-08T21:20:00Z C-Keen: because of sqldumps
2017-11-08T21:20:20Z DGASAU: How is systemd's log different from that?
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2017-11-08T21:24:12Z user51: yeah, it was definitely my syntax, i was scrweing up my cond
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2017-11-08T21:33:50Z user51: btw, which style is preferable? http://sprunge.us/GiPb
2017-11-08T21:34:17Z gwatt: usually multiple lines
2017-11-08T21:34:22Z gwatt: also 2 space indents
2017-11-08T21:34:44Z wasamasa: let emacs handle indentation
2017-11-08T21:35:09Z wasamasa: if you want a guide, http://mumble.net/~campbell/scheme/style.txt
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2017-11-08T21:37:24Z user51: i'll change my tabstop accordingly. thanks.
2017-11-08T21:37:45Z user51: wasamasa: is it heresy to use vim? i guess i have a good excuse to use emacs now, though.
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2017-11-08T21:38:04Z wasamasa: it's somewhat more painful, but doable
2017-11-08T21:38:47Z user51: anything i'd sorely miss out on?
2017-11-08T21:38:52Z DeeEff: vim is hardly more painful. If you install paredit.vim (I think coupled with the slimv add on now) it's literally no different
2017-11-08T21:39:28Z DeeEff: In fact the default key binds for paredit.vim are IMO better than the evil mode key binds for lispy stuff
2017-11-08T21:39:37Z wasamasa: http://foldling.org/git/vim-scheme.git/src/
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2017-11-08T21:41:13Z DeeEff: That package aims to emulate emacs indentation in vim. It's not bad but I disagree on some of the indentation rules (e.g. "if" clauses all being aligned)
2017-11-08T21:43:00Z jcowan: DGASAU: Binary stuff is not very self-identifying, and it's hard to eyeball it to see what it's all about
2017-11-08T21:43:27Z jcowan: https://www.tbray.org/ongoing/When/200x/2003/04/09/SemanticMarkup is a good explanation
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2017-11-09T00:24:26Z aeth: What you probably really want is the best of both worlds, and have a text format that can compile down to a binary format and decompile back up to the text format... So you can have the efficiency of a binary format, but be able to debug it or write it by hand with the text format.
2017-11-09T00:24:43Z aeth: Unless you're working mostly with text as data, of course. That's where something like XML really makes sense.
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2017-11-09T00:33:27Z qu1j0t3: i'm not sure that follows...
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2017-11-09T00:55:44Z jcowan: aeth: EXI is like that
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2017-11-09T01:04:46Z strupo: Someone should change the last link in the topic to https://www.scheme.com/tspl4 (add a "4"), because it 404s now
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2017-11-09T01:59:45Z aeth: wasamasa: I need to find time where I can just sit down for a few weekends and work through all the issues. I haven't had the free time, unfortunately.
2017-11-09T02:02:14Z aeth: Adding to the global scope at runtime is one of the trickier parts that I would have to resolve. (I don't think that's required by r7rs, though?)
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2017-11-09T02:05:25Z aeth: CL has no portable global lexical scope for variables (it has global dynamic variables and global constants). I can emulate a lot of a Lisp-1 with CL scope (and just e.g. translate (foo x) into (funcall |foo| |x|) or something similar), but I wouldn't be able to add to it (e.g. a procedure that defines a new global variable or new global procedure)
2017-11-09T02:06:17Z aeth: I could just use a hash table, but now I have two places where variables could be defined.
2017-11-09T02:06:59Z aeth: A related issue is that I'll probably have to do some tricks for hygienic macros.
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2017-11-10T13:50:38Z DGASAU: aeth: we have this "format" already, it is called ASN.1
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2017-11-10T18:18:17Z aeth: DGASAU: I didn't name a format not because it doesn't exist but because it probably was reinvented 10 times
2017-11-10T18:22:48Z qu1j0t3: *11
2017-11-10T18:24:30Z aeth: Well, it needs to be 11 because no one has done it with s-expressions correctly yet
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2017-11-10T18:33:38Z jcowan: aeth: what, you don't like SRFI 129?
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2017-11-10T18:38:29Z DGASAU: aeth: s-expressions have the same bloody problems as a number of other half-assed formats like markdown or yaml.
2017-11-10T18:39:22Z wasamasa: let's use this netstring-based sexp format
2017-11-10T18:39:30Z wasamasa: if only I could remember its name
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2017-11-10T18:41:41Z jcowan: DGASAU: and what format does not?
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2017-11-10T18:49:46Z aeth: DGASAU: that's why you subset and work with alists or plists
2017-11-10T18:50:42Z aeth: You basically wind up with a better JSON if you restrict yourself to plists (or alists) and vectors (you can't use lists as the basic sequence because then the empty list is ambiguous)
2017-11-10T18:51:59Z aeth: (in fact, the empty list is *still* ambiguous to CL)
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2017-11-10T19:03:42Z DGASAU: aeth: JSON isn't better, especially if you take a look at how it is defined.
2017-11-10T19:04:23Z DGASAU: jcowan: "what format does not" is wrong question.
2017-11-10T19:05:39Z DGASAU: (...No idea what you mean in "in fact, the empty list is *still* ambiguous to CL".)
2017-11-10T19:05:52Z jcowan: If all formats are half-assed, then to call one half-assed is to say nothing
2017-11-10T19:06:07Z pjb: DGASAU: (eq 'nil '()) -> T in CL.
2017-11-10T19:06:41Z jcowan: aeth: You can use (@ (sym "string") ...) to represent a JSON object
2017-11-10T19:06:46Z pjb: DGASAU: notice that (symbolp '()) -> T
2017-11-10T19:07:23Z jcowan: then you can use lists as JSON arrays, because @ does not have a JSON equivalent
2017-11-10T19:08:37Z DGASAU: pjb: I don't quite understand how that affects S-expressions in context of serialization format.
2017-11-10T19:10:43Z pjb: DGASAU: the problem is that there's no a-priori bijection between lisp types and json types.  Therefore if you write (nil ()) to json it can write either [false,false]  or [[],[]] and the remote won't know there was a boolean and a (empty) list.
2017-11-10T19:11:10Z pjb: sexp has the same problem, when you go eg. CL <-> scheme.
2017-11-10T19:11:31Z pjb: You have to decide on one ontology, and there won't be a bijection.
2017-11-10T19:12:17Z pjb: Unless you go to the extend of serializing a tagged format, and take it that you will be reading data that you cannot represent as predefined types provided by the current language.
2017-11-10T19:12:30Z jcowan: so the problem is false vs. empty array
2017-11-10T19:12:34Z pjb: For example, try to write in json an object ID in ruby, and read it back in C!
2017-11-10T19:12:36Z jcowan: and thus CL-specific
2017-11-10T19:12:54Z pjb: (object ID are integers, and ruby has bigint like lisp; C cannot read bigints!)
2017-11-10T19:13:17Z pjb: jcowan: and #() vs () and hash tables vs. a-lists etc.
2017-11-10T19:13:55Z jcowan: Well, if something's not representable in JSON, it's not.  I thought we were talking about data > JSON > data
2017-11-10T19:14:50Z ecraven: afaik, even "numbers" aren't well-defined in json
2017-11-10T19:15:03Z pjb: To do things correctly (in all programming languages), you shouldn't serialize/deserialize JSON (or XML or even SEXP), directly into native data structures.  You need to use objects to represent the ontology of the serialized forms.  And each application needs to convert between those JSON objects and the native objects.
2017-11-10T19:15:44Z DGASAU: Again, I don't understand how that applies in given context.
2017-11-10T19:15:50Z pjb: jcowan: that's the point, sturdy engineering wouldn't do data>JSON>data, but data1>JSON-DOM>JSON>JSON-DOM>data2
2017-11-10T19:16:02Z DGASAU: pjb: You describe situation exactly _outside_ the context.
2017-11-10T19:16:30Z jcowan: Yes, sure.
2017-11-10T19:17:25Z ecraven: pjb: now the question that seems obvious to me is, how is this (data1>JSON-DOM>JSON>JSON-DOM>data2) better than some arbitrary binary format?
2017-11-10T19:17:26Z DGASAU: I would like to hear how many programmers would actually like S-expressions-as-serialization-format to contain symbols,
2017-11-10T19:17:49Z DGASAU: given that out of the most popular languages only Ruby has them, to my limited knowledge of Ruby.
2017-11-10T19:19:36Z GreaseMonkey: there are definitely cases where "some arbitrary binary format" is much more suitable than JSON, the one off the top of my head involves small payloads, absolute maximum 250 bytes, in some cases the maximum is 11 bytes or worse
2017-11-10T19:20:03Z GreaseMonkey: that and of course you wouldn't send JSON to your graphics card unless you were taking the piss and implementing a JSON parser in GLSL
2017-11-10T19:20:26Z pjb: ecraven: any format in the middle has the same problem given that the set of native data types of two different languages are different!
2017-11-10T19:20:51Z ecraven: pjb: yes, but with a binary format, you tend to *define* what a valid "number" is
2017-11-10T19:20:55Z DGASAU: GreaseMonkey: I'm of opinion that it is those cases are majority.
2017-11-10T19:20:55Z pjb: Most formats will be better than JSON, just because any format will have a bigger set of data types than JSON!
2017-11-10T19:21:02Z ecraven: with textual data, people seem to be sloppier
2017-11-10T19:21:32Z ecraven: the most redeeming thing about json is probably that just about any language has a reader for it ...
2017-11-10T19:21:33Z pjb: ecraven: some lisp objects will be very difficult to convert to binary format reliably.
2017-11-10T19:21:44Z DGASAU: GreaseMonkey: correspondingly, all these attempts to implement serialization in a form suitable to text editor are misguided.
2017-11-10T19:21:57Z ecraven: pjb: harder than to convert to some textual format like xml or json?
2017-11-10T19:22:17Z pjb: But indeed, if you take eg. floating point, the format printed by C, Java and CL are different! (and if there's some common representation, they don't represent the same objects!)
2017-11-10T19:22:24Z pjb: ecraven: yes.
2017-11-10T19:22:40Z DGASAU: Oh, FPN is the nicest thing of all these.
2017-11-10T19:22:48Z jcowan: pjb: Better in the sense of "able to represent more", worse in the sense of "more likely to have an implementation at both ends".
2017-11-10T19:22:54Z GreaseMonkey: DGASAU: yeah, i once wrote most of a game which used JSON as a config format... these days i'd opt for something more like .ini
2017-11-10T19:23:15Z GreaseMonkey: YAML is less painful to use from a human perspective, but it's still got plenty of horrible gotchas
2017-11-10T19:23:18Z DGASAU: Given the number of people not understanding FPN, I suggest not to involve it into discussion.
2017-11-10T19:23:25Z ecraven: GreaseMonkey: but init files are only read by the one language you write the game in, right? so you don't have the same problems
2017-11-10T19:23:28Z pjb: indeed, there are a lot of considerations when choosing a format.  Most often, you just don't have a choice, it's part of an API.
2017-11-10T19:23:38Z GreaseMonkey: TOML is a lot nicer tbh
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2017-11-10T19:23:59Z DGASAU: GreaseMonkey: I don't know, if you noticed it, but whitespace are not allowed by JSON grammar as published officially at their site. ;)
2017-11-10T19:23:59Z GreaseMonkey: at least relative to JSON or even YAML for config
2017-11-10T19:24:00Z jcowan: pjb: In any case, I don't agree that a JSON-DOM is a Good Thing in Lisp-family languages, if by that you mean a group of opaque JSON-specific types
2017-11-10T19:24:05Z ecraven: what is FPN?
2017-11-10T19:24:12Z pjb: jcowan: it's easy to do with CLOS…
2017-11-10T19:24:13Z DGASAU: ecraven: floating point numbers.
2017-11-10T19:24:24Z ecraven: ah, thanks
2017-11-10T19:24:40Z ecraven: aren't ieee floats just about universal by now?
2017-11-10T19:24:47Z ecraven: so it might be best to just serialize the bits?
2017-11-10T19:24:57Z jcowan: pjb: It's not about whether it's easy to *do*, it's about whether it's easy to *use*.  Why do you want an opaque type for json-boolean, json-string, json-number?
2017-11-10T19:25:05Z DGASAU: GreaseMonkey: this makes JSON be one single long line without LF terminator. Very suitable for text editors on unix. :)
2017-11-10T19:25:09Z pjb: you can provide easy to use converters between the CLOS objects and the native lisp with variants such as sequence <-> list, sequence <-> vector, etc.
2017-11-10T19:25:31Z ecraven: jcowan: I think the problem is, json-number cannot be used reliably, because every reader will handle it differently (bignums, floats, ...)
2017-11-10T19:25:34Z pjb: jcowan: because in json you can distinguish json-boolean from json-vector, but not in Lisp!
2017-11-10T19:25:35Z DGASAU: ecraven: all those people don't understand IEEE FPNs either.
2017-11-10T19:25:40Z pjb: not in CL!
2017-11-10T19:25:50Z ecraven: so you are better off just serializing the number into a string in some custom format
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2017-11-10T19:25:59Z DGASAU: ecraven: not at all.
2017-11-10T19:26:14Z pjb: Because some API use json-integer (0 or 1) to represent booleans instead of true false!
2017-11-10T19:26:18Z DGASAU: ecraven: or do you speak of integer-only case?
2017-11-10T19:26:21Z pjb: etc.
2017-11-10T19:26:34Z jcowan: DGASAU: It's typical for grammars not to mention whitespace and have some covering remark like "Whitespace can be inserted between any pair of tokens", which is what json.org says.
2017-11-10T19:26:38Z ecraven: DGASAU: sorry, I think I am lost. you mean that bignums as direct json numbers are not a problem?
2017-11-10T19:26:49Z pjb: So you cannot perform the conversion systematically for all the applications. Each application need to choose the conversion.
2017-11-10T19:26:53Z jcowan: It depends on whose JSON standard you are using
2017-11-10T19:27:18Z DGASAU: jcowan: tell that to Mozilla Foundation whose interpretation is exactly "no whitespace allowed" one. :)
2017-11-10T19:27:20Z jcowan: The latest RFC says that if you send a number not representable as a 64-bit float, you shouldn't expect it to work reliably at the receiving end.
2017-11-10T19:27:33Z jcowan: DGASAU: If they can't read the spec it isn't my fault.
2017-11-10T19:27:44Z ecraven: jcowan: that would mean you cannot use 64 bit integers at all
2017-11-10T19:27:52Z ecraven: (well, not *all* 64 bit integers ;)
2017-11-10T19:27:58Z GreaseMonkey: i think the most fun part in terms of converting between lisp and JSON would be dealing to null, false, and []
2017-11-10T19:28:04Z DGASAU: jcowan: sure, it is the fault of json.org or whoever is behind the "standard".
2017-11-10T19:28:19Z jcowan: Not at all.
2017-11-10T19:28:43Z ecraven: GreaseMonkey: well, false would be #f in scheme, [] might be '(), null something implementation specific, like #!unspecific, #!null, whatever the implementation has ;)
2017-11-10T19:28:49Z pjb: jcowan: then once again, you need an application decision to choose what to do with bignums.
2017-11-10T19:28:59Z jcowan: ecraven: IMO a good choice is 'null
2017-11-10T19:29:13Z DGASAU: GreaseMonkey: not at all.
2017-11-10T19:29:20Z ecraven: jcowan: would you use symbols for anything else? object keys?
2017-11-10T19:29:21Z GreaseMonkey: ecraven: or a symbol where you cross your fingers and pray it doesn't show up... or of course if you have an implementation with gensym support you could use that
2017-11-10T19:29:52Z ecraven: in the end, it doesn't much matter *what* you use for null, as long as it's not something that is mapped to anything else, I guess?
2017-11-10T19:30:06Z pjb: or funny thing again, CL has packages so you may have to write (p1:foo p2:foo) How do you map that to JSON symbols?
2017-11-10T19:30:20Z ecraven: pjb: don't use CL :P
2017-11-10T19:30:34Z pjb: ecraven: you have the same problem with all the languages!
2017-11-10T19:30:36Z ecraven: I'm by no means an expert, but the CL package system seems like a major mess to me
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2017-11-10T19:30:48Z ecraven: pjb: only if you want to interoperate ;)
2017-11-10T19:30:48Z pjb: It's not, but that's not the point.
2017-11-10T19:31:20Z pjb: The point is that you can take all the native types with the same name, and you will get problems because the same name covers different realities in the different languages.
2017-11-10T19:31:40Z pjb: The intersection where you have some common meaning is a very small subset!
2017-11-10T19:31:52Z Riastradh: Now why would you _want_ to map Common Lisp symbols to anything else?
2017-11-10T19:32:03Z ecraven: pjb: but isn't that a problem with *any* sort of serialization across languages? take lua, it doesn't *have* anything but tables, how would you de-serialize lists in it?
2017-11-10T19:32:32Z pjb: ecraven: this is what I said. This is why I gave the general solution!  Use intermediate format-specific DOM.
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2017-11-10T19:33:11Z Riastradh: As for floating-point numbers, I never understood why hexadecimal notation 0x123.fec13p47 it not more widely supported and used for things like json.
2017-11-10T19:33:24Z ecraven: pjb: but there is no such thing, is there? it all depends on *which* languages you deal with each time
2017-11-10T19:33:43Z pjb: What such thing?
2017-11-10T19:33:59Z ecraven: a general intermediate format-specific DOM
2017-11-10T19:34:11Z ecraven: you'd need to redefine it for each combination of languages you want to interoperate with
2017-11-10T19:34:26Z pjb: This is a oxymoron!
2017-11-10T19:34:35Z pjb: You cannot have a general anything specific thing!
2017-11-10T19:34:45Z pjb: I said specific!
2017-11-10T19:35:05Z pjb: You will have a different ontology for each format, therefore a different set of DOM classes for each format.
2017-11-10T19:35:31Z ecraven: I understand that, but then why would you use json at all?
2017-11-10T19:36:18Z jcowan: There is no such thing as a "JSON symbol".  If you are working in a JSON context, you need a native representation of numbers (which can be just 64-bit floats), strings, arrays, objects, booleans, and null.  Tht's it.
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2017-11-10T19:40:56Z pjb: ecraven: the choice of JSON may be imposed by the remote party.
2017-11-10T19:41:30Z pjb: or by the customer.
2017-11-10T19:41:52Z pjb: Obviously, if you're talking about JSON, it's imposed, otherwise you'd just use sexps!
2017-11-10T19:43:19Z Riastradh: jcowan: Well, whaddya call an element in a context-free grammar for JSON, then?
2017-11-10T19:43:34Z Riastradh: Nonterminal cymbals?
2017-11-10T19:43:35Z DGASAU: Riastradh: that notation has one "drawback": humans don't understand it and cannot use text editor to process it. :)
2017-11-10T19:44:23Z DGASAU: (Basically, all the convenience is lost and you could have used binary format from the very beginning.)
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2017-11-10T21:25:26Z aeth: jcowan_: By like JSON, I mean using sexp as a subset of Lisp/Scheme (only real difference with a very tiny subset is t/nil vs #t/#f, and potentially keyword syntax) like JSON is a subset of JavaScript, i.e. .sxp files
2017-11-10T21:26:46Z aeth: Every data structure should be representable by keyed lists and vectors (both Common Lisp and Scheme have this), and any additional meaning can be assigned by the program or even some schema system
2017-11-10T21:27:38Z aeth: e.g. Sure, hash tables beat keyed lists, but you can just say "iterate through this keyed list and add to hash table each key/value pair". So all you need is primitives, keyed lists and vectors.
2017-11-10T21:27:53Z aeth: You're going to have to iterate through it anyway.
2017-11-10T21:28:28Z aeth: pjb: Actually, with JSON, you can do something very similar. In CL, just treat nil as false and not null or [], and translate [] <=> #()
2017-11-10T21:29:11Z aeth: And in Scheme there's not even that ambiguity, but you probably still can't use lists unless you want to use hashes instead of keyed lists for the JSON objects
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2017-11-10T21:30:33Z ecraven: aeth: or just use special lists, like jcowan said. (@ (key value) ...)
2017-11-10T21:30:40Z aeth: GreaseMonkey: YAML is great for game configuration. If I wasn't using Common Lisp, I'd use YAML for game data. But with Common Lisp or Scheme, s-expressions directly make more sense, especially since there's a JSON/YAML mapping issue.
2017-11-10T21:30:53Z aeth: ecraven: I don't think that's as elegant, but that's definitely doable.
2017-11-10T21:31:06Z ecraven: aeth: it might still be better than using actual hashes
2017-11-10T21:32:28Z aeth: GreaseMonkey: But I don't think anything beats YAML for reading, even though writing it is a bit tricky. i.e. a non programmer reading through the game data files should have the easiest time with YAML than with the alternatives (JSON, SXP, traditional Unix config, etc.) with XML as probably the hardest to read.
2017-11-10T21:32:57Z ecraven: aeth: but isn't writing rather important too? if you look at a config file, usually you want to modify it somehow
2017-11-10T21:33:15Z ecraven: yaml is ok in that regards, but I've struggled with TOML a lot, for example ;)
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2017-11-10T21:34:23Z aeth: ecraven: You can't get it all. I'd say YAML wins in readability, probably followed by Unix config (at least if it's flat enough). And XML and s-expressions probably win in structure. Writing a config file in general for a program you didn't write is tricky because you need a validator or risk breaking things.
2017-11-10T21:35:15Z aeth: I've modded some Paradox grand strategy games and they use an almost-JSON format. It's not very transparent how to add things. Very hard to get right, especially if there's no clear example usage.
2017-11-10T21:35:36Z aeth: They don't use UTF-8, either. That's the #1 sin you can do in config files.
2017-11-10T21:36:01Z ecraven: I agree, it would be nice if *everything* just switched to utf-8 :-/
2017-11-10T21:36:33Z aeth: UTF-8 has the right tradeoffs for written text, even if UTF-32 or whatever might make more sense internally for a language
2017-11-10T21:37:24Z aeth: I think everyone but Microsoft is moving in the right direction. Is Microsoft planning on switching Windows to it eventually? That would be a huge win.
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2017-11-10T21:38:47Z aeth: Well, not everyone. Is IBM still using EBCDIC?
2017-11-10T21:39:18Z ecraven: aeth: not sure microsoft can. everything is ucs-2 internally, right? not even utf-16
2017-11-10T21:39:38Z aeth: In a sense, Microsoft got punished for supporting Unicode so early
2017-11-10T21:39:51Z ecraven: hm.. seems I'm wrong, utf-16 LE it is
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2017-11-10T21:42:48Z aeth: hmm, it doesn't look like there's an s-expression as config file data srfi
2017-11-10T21:43:03Z GreaseMonkey: aeth: Reference implementation: (read)
2017-11-10T21:43:18Z takitus: aeth: In the same sense we've been punished for their early support, viz. surrogates :/
2017-11-10T21:43:34Z GreaseMonkey: (re: s-expression config SRFI)
2017-11-10T21:43:44Z aeth: GreaseMonkey: actually, no
2017-11-10T21:44:57Z aeth: GreaseMonkey: at it's laziest, it would be reading a file as if there's a ( at the beginning and a ) at the end so the entire file can be read into one s-expression
2017-11-10T21:45:18Z ecraven: mit-scheme has read-file, which does exactly that
2017-11-10T21:45:25Z aeth: at less laziness, it would have to have some restricted subset so it could be meaningfully handled (including by non Lisps)
2017-11-10T21:46:18Z aeth: so a library that did this would (1) implement read-file like ecraven says if it doesn't already exist, (2) actually handle it
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2017-11-10T21:46:53Z ecraven: well, read-file is just read until eof, that's just a few lines of code. actually restricting what you read is much harder
2017-11-10T21:47:15Z ecraven: but maybe you don't, maybe it would be enough to check the config you actually read for compliance
2017-11-10T21:47:16Z aeth: one way to do it, the laziest, would be to read it and then validate that it only has valid things in there
2017-11-10T21:47:28Z aeth: that'd read through the thing twice, though, but might actually be the safest thing
2017-11-10T21:47:29Z GreaseMonkey: ideally i'd go with an intersecton of what's supported by CL, R4, R5, R7, and stripping back a lot of special syntax (e.g. no vectors, no quote shorthand)
2017-11-10T21:47:47Z aeth: well, yes, there would be no quote because the entire thing is quoted
2017-11-10T21:47:48Z ecraven: GreaseMonkey: quote is universal, isn't it?
2017-11-10T21:48:04Z GreaseMonkey: ecraven: it is among lisps, it's not among nonlisps
2017-11-10T21:48:07Z aeth: I would support vectors, though. They're in every lisp
2017-11-10T21:48:22Z aeth: I don't think they'd be hard to support in a reference C implementation, either
2017-11-10T21:48:25Z GreaseMonkey: with that said, 'x is just (quote x) anyway
2017-11-10T21:48:38Z ecraven: GreaseMonkey: but syntax matters, in config files
2017-11-10T21:49:28Z aeth: One of the most universal support way of handling it would be to have alists (and regular lists? mark one of them specially?) and vectors, possibly.
2017-11-10T21:50:18Z aeth: The numeric tower is pretty universal, so that's no issue, except I think exponential notation might be an issue, and CL has multiple float formats (four, but usually only single and double are supported with short-float and long-float just read as single-float and double-float)
2017-11-10T21:50:29Z aeth: boolean would be an issue.
2017-11-10T21:51:11Z GreaseMonkey: boolean is kinda nasty, although one thing that could be done is to not actually explicitly define a boolean form, instead, telling people to use symbols to represent them
2017-11-10T21:51:13Z aeth: Perhaps supporting both #t and t as true and #f and nil as false would work, perhaps with some pragma to pick one or the other or both if needed
2017-11-10T21:51:40Z aeth: nil doubling as the empty list is bad, though. Buy why would an empty list show up often in a config format?
2017-11-10T21:51:52Z GreaseMonkey: (banned-users ())
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2017-11-10T21:52:17Z GreaseMonkey: just one case where you would use an empty list
2017-11-10T21:53:04Z GreaseMonkey: and as for vectors... whether you use a vector or a list to store a particular thing is ultimately an implementation detail
2017-11-10T21:53:46Z aeth: boolean, floating point, exponential notation (related to floating point), and keywords (not all Schemes have them, and some are foo: instead of :foo) would be the tricky parts to get right in a truly universal sxp format.
2017-11-10T21:54:03Z ecraven: well, you *can* use () as the empty list in both scheme and CL
2017-11-10T21:54:08Z GreaseMonkey: lemme just check the R5 spec as i don't have a bare R5 interp handy
2017-11-10T21:54:38Z ecraven: I'd rather suggest true and false, #t/#f won't work in CL, and t/nil seems very much non-ideal
2017-11-10T21:54:42Z GreaseMonkey: tbh i'd mark nil as a reserved / forbidden keyword
2017-11-10T21:54:45Z aeth: ecraven: Yes, but how would a Scheme client know if the CL server wanted to set something to #f or '() when it sees () in the data?
2017-11-10T21:54:50Z ecraven: if this is a config format, on/off yes/no might be useful as alternatives to true/false
2017-11-10T21:55:02Z ecraven: aeth: I'd say () is always a list
2017-11-10T21:55:17Z ecraven: I'd agree with GreaseMonkey ;)
2017-11-10T21:55:34Z GreaseMonkey: the thing with using stuff like on/off, yes/no is that, at the end of the day, whoever's parsing the config format is defining the semantics
2017-11-10T21:55:38Z GreaseMonkey: erm, the application semantics
2017-11-10T21:55:47Z aeth: ecraven: reserving true/false as symbols to translate into #t/#f or t/nil would be a good idea.
2017-11-10T21:56:01Z ecraven: yea, but you could have a "standard" parser that converted those to #t/#f or t/nil, depending on the system
2017-11-10T21:56:12Z ecraven: but then, this wouldn't be plain s-expressions any longer
2017-11-10T21:56:49Z ecraven: I'm still not sure what I think about executable configurations ;-/
2017-11-10T21:57:03Z aeth: GreaseMonkey: the problem is that the laziest way of handling writing a sxp file in CL would write '((banned-users ()) as "(BANNED-USERS NIL)" instead of "(banned-users ())"
2017-11-10T21:57:32Z aeth: Case is easy to solve. Simply make it case-insensitive and always written in the lower case. I'm not sure how to handle. NIL => ()
2017-11-10T21:57:33Z ecraven: you'd need custom read/write anyway :-/
2017-11-10T21:57:48Z GreaseMonkey: custom write would still be pretty easy
2017-11-10T21:58:23Z ecraven: my gripe with this is, if you cannot use plain read/write, what's the advantage of using it?
2017-11-10T21:58:39Z ecraven: it's like s-expressions, but not quite, so why not just use json or whatever else
2017-11-10T21:58:39Z aeth: ecraven: You can reuse almost all of read and write, but not quite all of it.
2017-11-10T21:58:53Z GreaseMonkey: it's less dense than JSON
2017-11-10T21:58:55Z ecraven: aeth: that doesn't help non-system-implementors at all, does it
2017-11-10T21:58:55Z aeth: This happens a lot when working with s-expressions, e.g. in my cl-scheme
2017-11-10T21:59:44Z aeth: ecraven: The advantage, I'd say, is that you can just use it in a Lisp/Scheme environment (e.g. a properly configured emacs with special .sxp support) and it will just work as expected, with the same work flow (e.g. paredit for paren balancing) as working on source
2017-11-10T22:00:02Z ecraven: good point ;)
2017-11-10T22:00:23Z ecraven: I've used sxml files for android, worked very well
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2017-11-10T22:00:56Z aeth: .sxp files would also be a universal interchange format between different dialects of Lisp/Scheme. Once someone writes the r7rs library and the CL library and a few others, it'll basically be done, and then you can transfer data between different dialects of Lisp via s-expressions
2017-11-10T22:01:19Z aeth: assuming a proper format can be worked out, of course
2017-11-10T22:01:24Z ecraven: ah, but weren't we just talking about custom read? that can't be a portable library
2017-11-10T22:01:38Z ecraven: unless you actually duplicate all of read in that library
2017-11-10T22:02:08Z aeth: A custom read usually isn't a fully custom read.
2017-11-10T22:02:11Z aeth: I've had to write several before
2017-11-10T22:02:24Z aeth: You work around edge cases, and where it just works, feed it into the implementation's reader
2017-11-10T22:02:52Z aeth: I'm not sure if r7rs gives enough for this to be possible
2017-11-10T22:03:11Z ecraven: I think it does, you can certainly implement an entire reader based on r7rs
2017-11-10T22:03:18Z GreaseMonkey: (define (write-config x) (cond ((symbol? x) (string-append (symbol->string x) " ")) ((list? x) (string-append "(" (apply string-append (map write-config x)) ")")) ...))
2017-11-10T22:03:22Z GreaseMonkey: ^ would be a starting point
2017-11-10T22:07:27Z GreaseMonkey: ok, for R5RS: "in all implementations a sequence of letters, digits, and ``extended alphabetic characters'' that begins with a character that cannot begin a number is an identifier"... : is an extended alphabetic character
2017-11-10T22:08:02Z aeth: I think a much harder part of .sxp would be supporting Python, JavaScript, C, etc.
2017-11-10T22:08:22Z aeth: (You could cheat with C and embed a full Scheme to do it.)
2017-11-10T22:08:24Z GreaseMonkey: and that's why i'd love to see a version stripped down to its very core
2017-11-10T22:08:24Z ecraven: I think all of those have existing s-expression readers (of varying quality)
2017-11-10T22:08:44Z aeth: and now they'd have n+1 :-p
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2017-11-10T22:09:02Z GreaseMonkey: and yeah, while :keywords and keywords: may have different meanings in different scheme implementations when used as part of a procedure call, both are syntactically-valid identifiers
2017-11-10T22:09:06Z ecraven: you'd run into the same problems json has though... what about bigints? how would you read them in C?
2017-11-10T22:09:41Z GreaseMonkey: OTOH with plists you no longer have to work around the issue of dicts not being ordered
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2017-11-10T22:09:55Z aeth: GreaseMonkey: It'd probably be better to go with :keywords because those are the majority. keywords: have a long history, too, though, e.g. dsssl
2017-11-10T22:10:14Z ecraven: why do you need keywords at all?
2017-11-10T22:10:16Z aeth: I would personally say support both plists and alists
2017-11-10T22:10:18Z ecraven: why not just use plain symbols?
2017-11-10T22:10:36Z GreaseMonkey: ecraven: what would make them into keywords is ultimately the semantics of the thing reading them
2017-11-10T22:10:36Z aeth: And in CL at least plist use keywords because of packages (although obviously this wouldn't involve packages, but still)
2017-11-10T22:10:58Z GreaseMonkey: but tbh i think the biggest advantage is you no longer have to remember to have a comma on all non-last elements, and no comma on all last elements
2017-11-10T22:11:02Z aeth: well, it could still matter, e.g. if you read in a different package then where you process
2017-11-10T22:11:15Z aeth: GreaseMonkey: no comma is huge, yes
2017-11-10T22:11:18Z ecraven: things won't work well in CL if you read them as symbols, not keywords
2017-11-10T22:11:43Z ecraven: personally, I find alists easier to parse than plists (in my head, not by the machine)
2017-11-10T22:12:01Z GreaseMonkey: dammit i meant alists not plists when i said plists
2017-11-10T22:12:14Z aeth: It would be a bit tricky to test if something is a well-formed plist if it's a very long plist. Even number of items and a symbol as every even element.
2017-11-10T22:12:23Z aeth: That's the disadvantage here
2017-11-10T22:12:32Z aeth: The advantage is they're quite common, so no conversion would be needed
2017-11-10T22:13:00Z ecraven: I've seldom seen them in Scheme, do some implementations use plists extensively?
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2017-11-10T22:13:10Z aeth: There is no Scheme standard style
2017-11-10T22:13:21Z aeth: each implementation has its own idioms
2017-11-10T22:13:46Z aeth: There are a few common things like kebab-case and ; for inline comments and mostly-lowercase (usually!) and no )s on their own line
2017-11-10T22:13:48Z ecraven: aye, but I've seen alists in many implementations, but I don't think I've seen plists so far
2017-11-10T22:15:23Z aeth: if the implementation supports keyword arguments with keywords, and the plist uses keywords, then you can easily turn plists into an object. In CL: (defun foo (&key bar) bar) (apply #'foo (list :bar 42))
2017-11-10T22:15:32Z GreaseMonkey: i tend to still do ) on its own line regardless of the lisp when i'm still working on a function/proc
2017-11-10T22:15:43Z aeth: In a hypothetical scheme: (define (foo &key bar) bar) (apply foo (list :bar 42))
2017-11-10T22:15:44Z GreaseMonkey: e.g. in a let*
2017-11-10T22:15:54Z ecraven: GreaseMonkey: me too ;) but paredit makes it easy to fix that, when you are done
2017-11-10T22:16:15Z aeth: ecraven: So plists make it trivial to actually give meaning to sxp files, just write a function that takes in the same keys as the plist provides, and apply
2017-11-10T22:16:24Z GreaseMonkey: ...i'd have to hack together a paredit for vim
2017-11-10T22:16:33Z GreaseMonkey: it's probably pretty easy tbh
2017-11-10T22:16:43Z GreaseMonkey: it'd most likely just be an ex command
2017-11-10T22:17:06Z GreaseMonkey: ...oh right, comments do complicate things a bit
2017-11-10T22:17:18Z gwatt: GreaseMonkey: good news! http://www.vim.org/scripts/script.php?script_id=3998
2017-11-10T22:17:21Z ecraven: aeth: I don't think any scheme I've seen supports that style of keyword arguments
2017-11-10T22:17:28Z aeth: GreaseMonkey: I'd be surprised if it didn't exist 3 times in vim because it exists at least 3 times in emacs
2017-11-10T22:17:55Z GreaseMonkey: yeah i was thinking "what other implementation of this are available for vim as well"
2017-11-10T22:17:56Z aeth: (there are several alternatives to paredit, the basic concept is just structured editing on parens instead of lines)
2017-11-10T22:18:27Z aeth: ecraven: good news!
2017-11-10T22:19:00Z aeth: ecraven: I might just have to add that to cl-scheme when I have the time to go back to it (maybe this January?)
2017-11-10T22:19:39Z ecraven: aeth: I still haven't thought about keyword arguments enough to comment on this. I don't think the fully general form is a good idea (but can't quite explain why I think that yet)
2017-11-10T22:20:22Z aeth: It's really cool to be able to do something like this with plists: (apply #'make-array 42 (list :element-type 'fixnum :initial-element 42))
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2017-11-10T22:20:36Z aeth: Obviously you feed the plist in, otherwise why not just use make-array directly?
2017-11-10T22:20:55Z aeth: plists and keyword procedures would go together so well in a Scheme
2017-11-10T22:20:57Z ecraven: hm.. an interesting argument, I never thought of this before
2017-11-10T22:21:06Z ecraven: thanks for explaining ;)
2017-11-10T22:21:29Z aeth: This is the most convenient place for plists, at least in something that could also translate to idiomatic Scheme.
2017-11-10T22:21:34Z ecraven: off for tonight, thanks for the interesting talk! we should continue discussing this
2017-11-10T22:22:20Z aeth: oh, this is also where non-well-formed plists make sense, because only the tail needs to be a plist. (apply #'make-array (list 42 :element-type 'fixnum :initial-element 42))
2017-11-10T22:22:47Z ecraven: hm.. I actually implemented keyword parameters just like you describe them for mit-scheme some time ago, just found the code
2017-11-10T22:23:03Z ecraven: (lambda* (a b c #!optional d (e) (f 0) #!key g (h) (i 5) #!rest j) ...)
2017-11-10T22:23:27Z aeth: If there's a way you can get them to work with apply, they become suddenly a million times more useful, especially for reading in data files.
2017-11-10T22:24:10Z aeth: How do optional and key work together in the same lambda?
2017-11-10T22:24:24Z ecraven: first optional, after that keyword. but I'm not sure mixing them is a good idea
2017-11-10T22:24:31Z ecraven: I think I based that on CL
2017-11-10T22:24:33Z aeth: CL doesn't permit that
2017-11-10T22:24:38Z ecraven: ah, I thought it did
2017-11-10T22:24:41Z aeth: or at least, sbcl gives a style warning
2017-11-10T22:25:07Z aeth: (defun foo (&optional foo &key bar) bar) ; gives a style warning in SBCL
2017-11-10T22:25:10Z ecraven: hm.. it seems I even implemented them *twice* ;) I should keep track of my old code
2017-11-10T22:25:31Z GreaseMonkey: what comes to mind for CL is that you have &rest whatever &key whatever-else, and that &rest will also contain the keys
2017-11-10T22:25:39Z GreaseMonkey: and the keywords too
2017-11-10T22:25:40Z aeth: ecraven: the second from-scratch implementation is always better
2017-11-10T22:25:52Z ecraven: aeth: yea, now if I only knew which of them was the second :P
2017-11-10T22:26:04Z GreaseMonkey: aeth: i thought it was supposed to be the third due to the second system effect
2017-11-10T22:26:27Z ecraven: much to think about, a good night to you all!
2017-11-10T22:26:29Z GreaseMonkey: but then again if there's a concrete spec to follow then it might not apply
2017-11-10T22:26:35Z aeth: GreaseMonkey: uh oh, now there's a contradiction between "build one to throw away" and "second system effect"
2017-11-10T22:26:56Z ecraven: "build the second system to throw away!"
2017-11-10T22:27:01Z aeth: how do I decide which part of Mythical Man-Month to follow?
2017-11-10T22:27:30Z aeth: (We are probably not the first to notice this contradiction.)
2017-11-10T22:27:44Z GreaseMonkey: would be funny if build one to throw away was the first part and second system effect was the second part
2017-11-10T22:27:47Z Riastradh: aeth: Buy ten copies and follow one tenth of each one in one tenth the time!
2017-11-10T22:28:18Z GreaseMonkey: just buy the third edition
2017-11-10T22:28:23Z GreaseMonkey: it avoids the conflict :^)
2017-11-10T22:28:48Z aeth: Well, these days, it's more like "just download the 56th edition"
2017-11-10T22:29:01Z GreaseMonkey: "from your favourite tracker"
2017-11-10T22:32:27Z jcowan_: aeth:  as I pointed out earlier, consing '@ onto an alist works fine as an internal representation of a JSON object
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2017-11-10T22:36:22Z aeth: jcowan: what do you think about defining a portable s-expression data format reader/writer for .sxp files loosely modeled on how JSON works?
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2017-11-10T22:38:10Z aeth: Most of the numeric tower is in common, booleans can be avoided by using true/false symbols that each implementation can handle properly, JSON objects can be replaced with alists and/or plists, vector support should be possible with the #(1 2 3) syntax.
2017-11-10T22:39:02Z GreaseMonkey: here's the thing. to a, say, Python implementation, does it care whether you give it a list or a vector?
2017-11-10T22:39:16Z aeth: Case issues could be handled by requiring lower case (and then CL would just use *print-case* :downcase before writing and :invert for the case before reading)
2017-11-10T22:39:52Z aeth: GreaseMonkey: Meaning can depend on the language. Most Schemes and Lisps would have a separate list and a separate vector. C might care, too, e.g. reading lists as linked lists. Python probably wouldn't care.
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2017-11-10T22:40:26Z GreaseMonkey: is there any real issue to having a list which gets converted to a vector at runtime?
2017-11-10T22:40:44Z GreaseMonkey: or possibly vice versa?
2017-11-10T22:40:47Z aeth: In a sense, it changes the mapping problem. JSON maps fairly nicely to/from most scripting langauges, but not with Lisps. This would map near-perfectly with Lisps/Schemes, but not work out as well with the scripting languages.
2017-11-10T22:41:12Z aeth: GreaseMonkey: Consider vertex information for 3D geometry. Probably not ideal to put in this format, but possible.
2017-11-10T22:42:18Z weinholt: http://theory.lcs.mit.edu/~rivest/sexp.html  <-- twenty years ago, Ron Rivest wrote an internet draft for s-expressions
2017-11-10T22:42:53Z aeth: GreaseMonkey: It might even be possible to annotate the type of the vector, which could permit efficient memory representation where allowed. e.g. vectors of single-float and double-float and bytes known as such at read time might never need the intermediate vector-of-anything representation
2017-11-10T22:43:47Z GreaseMonkey: you could do that by saying (array-2d ((1 2 3) (1 2 4)))
2017-11-10T22:43:47Z aeth: It would probably be best to go the CL route of "ignore this type information if you don't support it". e.g. (make-array 10 :element-type 'single-float) works for most CLs, but not CLISP, but CLISP will just make that a T simple-vector.
2017-11-10T22:45:44Z aeth: In practice, though, e.g. for byte arrays it's probably best to just write two files. A metadata file as .sxp and then a byte file as bytes. Someone shouldn't use .sxp to encode long arrays of bytes
2017-11-10T22:46:06Z aeth: So this might be overengineering
2017-11-10T22:46:46Z GreaseMonkey: to be honest they probably shouldn't use JSON for long arrays either
2017-11-10T22:47:19Z aeth: right, which is why it might be a good idea to support vector types where possible because people will abuse the .sxp format
2017-11-10T22:48:16Z GreaseMonkey: i'd argue more in favour of parsing everything into a vector
2017-11-10T22:48:24Z aeth: It'll especially be abused if there's libraries in every Lisp/Scheme and JavaScript because now you can have a multi-dialect/multi-language application.
2017-11-10T22:50:27Z aeth: GreaseMonkey: Well, alists and/or plists are convenient for objects, hash tables, etc. Even if you have an object, hash table, etc., you want to put it in, you can just iterate over the list as part of the conversion process.
2017-11-10T22:52:58Z aeth: And, at least in CL, a plist is one simple apply to a make-foo away from being used to make a foo. Safe and convenient object serialization, but apparently this is only CL.
2017-11-10T22:54:38Z Riastradh: What's your schema language?
2017-11-10T22:56:05Z aeth: I assume a schema would work just like in XML... Use SXP to specify .SXP files just like you use XML to specify .XML files.
2017-11-10T22:56:23Z aeth: An SXP could be sort of a cross between JSON and XML. Almost a middle ground.
2017-11-10T22:57:06Z mrm: One thing I really want to experiment with some day is writing a scheme where lists are invisibly transformed into unrolled-linked-lists during garbage collection. Like, generally when copying objects from the nursery, you try to transform the pointer soup into a more compact and contiguous representation.
2017-11-10T22:57:10Z Riastradh: That doesn't answer the question of `what is your schema language?'; you just told me that you're using the Hangul alphabet instead of Cuneiform.
2017-11-10T22:58:20Z aeth: Riastradh: I don't think .sxp is to the point of that many details yet.
2017-11-10T22:58:43Z aeth: mrm: I don't think that can be a Scheme because I don't think you can do that efficiently unless you can assume immutability, i.e. break set-car! and set-cdr!
2017-11-10T22:59:13Z jcowan thinks about it
2017-11-10T22:59:35Z jcowan: I think a blob format would be a good thing to have, though it is not native to any Lisp
2017-11-10T22:59:52Z jcowan: something more compact than bytevectors
2017-11-10T23:00:50Z jcowan: aeth: a good middle ground is ftanml, which comes with its own schema language and transformation language
2017-11-10T23:01:10Z mrm: aeth: I'm using 'a scheme' loosely.
2017-11-10T23:01:22Z jcowan: https://www.balisage.net/Proceedings/vol10/html/Kay01/BalisageVol10-Kay01.html
2017-11-10T23:01:42Z GreaseMonkey: i'd argue more in favour of writing the container first, then the schema language later
2017-11-10T23:01:51Z jcowan agrees
2017-11-10T23:01:55Z GreaseMonkey: without the container, the schema makes no sense
2017-11-10T23:02:13Z GreaseMonkey: with the container... you now have something to play with, and you can get a feel for what would make a good schema
2017-11-10T23:02:16Z jcowan: The only time you *need* a schema language is when your encoding is not sufficiently self-describing
2017-11-10T23:02:25Z jcowan: asn.1 or such
2017-11-10T23:02:53Z aeth: At the moment, I just use .sxp in my own CL applications as essentially files that contain top-level s-expression forms that are read (implicitly quoted) into one list, which are then processed by the application. I use plists as the top level form because of the CLism of using apply on a cdr of a list that's a plist to turn plist keys into function keywords
2017-11-10T23:02:56Z Riastradh: Heh.  Okeydokey.
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2017-11-10T23:04:08Z aeth: i.e. (apply #'make-foo plist-tail-of-sublist-that-represents-serialized-foo) => #<foo>
2017-11-10T23:04:20Z aeth: I'd be willing to give up convenience for an actual defined format, though.
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2017-11-10T23:04:36Z mrm: aeth: I think the general idea applies to structs though. Like, you could transform a tree of structs into a compact heap-like form that eliminates the intermediate pointers, and be able to represent the component structs as just pointers into some part of that contiguous region.
2017-11-10T23:05:06Z jcowan: mrm: That's essentially what CapnProto and flatbuffers do
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2017-11-10T23:07:30Z aeth: I do have something inspired by HTML, though, in my own personal .sxp files. I say what it is at the top, again as a plist. (:s-expression :some-thing) or (:s-expression :some-thing :foo 42 :bar 87 :version "2.2.4") or whatever. i.e. the first s-expression must be a list that starts with :s-expression, followed by what it is, followed by keys/values
2017-11-10T23:07:45Z mrm: jcowan: Neat, I didn't know about those. The essential part is rewriting random networks of structs in your nursery into that form during collection, so it sort of comes for free though.
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2017-11-10T23:08:57Z jcowan: They are C/C++ oriented, so it kind of comes for free
2017-11-10T23:09:09Z jcowan: anyway, since C programmers tend to do just that.
2017-11-10T23:09:47Z aeth: a more portable thing to do could be something like this: (s-expression some-thing (foo . 42) (bar . 87) (version . "2.2.4"))
2017-11-10T23:10:57Z aeth: Since some-thing is always defined, you could have some specified way of handling some-thing, also as a .sxp file, I guess?
2017-11-10T23:11:50Z mrm: I meant relative to a scheme like language. You get more compact, cache-friendly data structures, without neccesarily having to fix the structure ahead of time.
2017-11-10T23:13:00Z Riastradh: Ever done measurements to see the effect on the CPU cache utilization and on net performance?
2017-11-10T23:13:25Z GreaseMonkey: > (cadr (member ':foo '(:s-expression :some-thing :foo 42 :bar 87 :version "2.2.4")))
2017-11-10T23:13:25Z GreaseMonkey: 42
2017-11-10T23:13:26Z mrm: Er, yes? It was rather dramatic.
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2017-11-10T23:13:44Z GreaseMonkey: i'd say something like that is portable enough
2017-11-10T23:13:55Z aeth: GreaseMonkey: okay
2017-11-10T23:14:04Z GreaseMonkey: (prompt was chibi-scheme, a fairly bare R7 implementation)
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2017-11-10T23:14:25Z aeth: I would personally say the body should be able to support both alists and plists, and the header list should be a plist, then, I guess.
2017-11-10T23:15:10Z aeth: Especially since most of the time it'd just be (:s-expression :foo) or perhaps (s-expression :foo) or perhaps (s-expression foo), depending on how keywords would work.
2017-11-10T23:15:21Z aeth: That's a final detail, and not really as important
2017-11-10T23:15:33Z Riastradh: mrm: Neat.  There's a lot of bluster around Lisp performance without meaningful measurement, which is why I ask.
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2017-11-10T23:19:04Z aeth: I'd be leaning toward plist because then the whole thing is a valid plist, rather than two items followed by a cddr that's a valid alist
2017-11-10T23:20:25Z Riastradh: mrm: A historical trick that this reasoning justified was to put the cdr before the car in memory, and to do depth-first rather than breadth-first stop & copy garbage collection.  That was when the gap between memory and CPU speed was smaller, though, and I don't know whether anyone does that these days.
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2017-11-10T23:24:24Z aeth: Scheme will probably outlive the current computer architecture. e.g. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Memristor
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2017-11-10T23:27:25Z mrm: Something like erlang would probably be better for computing around a memristor architecture.
2017-11-10T23:27:56Z aeth: I'd post some proposed .sxp files but this is down at the moment due to spam. http://paste.lisp.org/
2017-11-10T23:28:06Z aeth: Maybe I'll make a gitlab repo instead
2017-11-10T23:28:19Z aeth: oh wait, of course they'd have a gist knockoff
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2017-11-10T23:36:59Z aeth: GreaseMonkey: https://gitlab.com/snippets/1683688
2017-11-10T23:37:30Z aeth: oh, I forgot to add a true/false to demonstrate that they'd be used as a portable true/false, oh well.
2017-11-10T23:37:55Z aeth: oh I can just edit it
2017-11-10T23:39:49Z aeth: I updated to add the equivalent of vehicle = true
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2017-11-10T23:51:20Z aeth: The idea would be to support lists, vectors, a portable (between Lisps) subset of the numeric tower, treat the symbols true/false as booleans to solve portability issues, and put everything in one big list with the first item being a list that says what it is.
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2017-11-10T23:54:12Z aeth: Also strings. And, obviously, standard s-expression ; end of line, ;; start of line, ;;; top-level comments. I'm not sure about quoting and keywords. Technically, everything is equivalent to just putting '( at the top of the file and ) at the end besides true/false.
2017-11-10T23:57:29Z aeth: Characters could also be supported, or at least the subset that CL and r7rs have in common. Maybe other types of vectors (bytevectors? CL has no literal notation and technically only requires bitvectors, but nearly every CL implementation has bytevectors)
2017-11-10T23:58:08Z aeth: And hash tables wouldn't be supported, just convert an alist or plist into one once read.
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2017-11-11T00:33:23Z jcob: Can someone explain like im 5 what ... is in scheme macros
2017-11-11T00:37:08Z aeth: jcob: Macros are like a robot that assembles your legos for you instead of assembling legos yourself. Procedures are similar, but they're different kinds of robots. Macro robots can do more things, mostly with bindings (e.g. let has to be a macro), but are harder to use.
2017-11-11T00:37:31Z aeth: so I guess the ELI5 would be that macros are robots that can make robots that can make legos for you.
2017-11-11T00:40:06Z aeth: And macros are easy in Scheme because the robots are themselves made of legos, i.e. Scheme uses s-expressions, where source code is just data rather than strings.
2017-11-11T00:40:27Z aeth: Most programming languages make their robots out of metal, so you can't use robots that work on legos to make new robots.
2017-11-11T00:42:15Z aeth: But if you make your robots out of lego, you can make a robot from legos that makes robots from legos that makes things with legos.
2017-11-11T00:47:20Z aeth: The ELI15 would be: Try writing a Python function that generates a Python string that is also a valid Python function. Now add functionality to make something useful. Now try doing that in Scheme.
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2017-11-11T01:02:12Z aeth: Oh, and if you do write a function that does something like 'def foo(): return "def add_one(x):\n  return 1 + x\n"', then good. Now add an argument to it and make sure that the string generated is safe when evaled.
2017-11-11T01:03:17Z aeth: (looks like you run exec(foo()), not eval(foo()), in that particular example)
2017-11-11T01:06:06Z DGASAU: aeth: first, the way you pose the problem is stupid, second, it is pretty well possible and is done in production code.
2017-11-11T01:06:27Z DGASAU: Of course, it is done not by mere string concatenation.
2017-11-11T01:07:05Z aeth: DGASAU: everything possible is possible, and everything possible is probably done in production code, too.
2017-11-11T01:07:24Z aeth: but code generation in Scheme is much easier than code generation in most other languages
2017-11-11T01:07:58Z aeth: That's why the real answer should be to try to do the same thing in several different languages.
2017-11-11T01:08:52Z DGASAU: It is no more complex than in any other language with moderately sane syntax and moderately sane library support.
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2017-11-11T01:10:41Z aeth: Libraries are cheating.
2017-11-11T01:10:58Z aeth: Lisps win in comparisons when libraries aren't taken into account. :-p
2017-11-11T01:11:02Z DGASAU: Not at all.
2017-11-11T01:11:13Z DGASAU: Lisps don't win anything.
2017-11-11T01:11:25Z DGASAU: There're other homoiconic programming languages around.
2017-11-11T01:11:54Z DGASAU: Some of them are more powerful than the most widespread Lisp dialects.
2017-11-11T01:12:24Z aeth: Depends on what you mean by powerful.
2017-11-11T01:12:46Z Riastradh: watts per token
2017-11-11T01:13:07Z aeth: Common Lisp's weaknesses (besides the ones that are there for backwards compatibility with historic lisps) really show when you're writing heavily typed code imo.
2017-11-11T01:13:53Z DGASAU: There exist homoiconic programming languages that are heavily typed, and their type systems are among the strongest available currently.
2017-11-11T01:14:32Z aeth: Almost all Lisps are going to lose comparisons in places where static type checks work well. There are only two I know of. https://docs.racket-lang.org/ts-guide/index.html and http://shenlanguage.org/
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2017-11-11T01:15:05Z DGASAU: aeth: even Shen's typing system doesn't compete here.
2017-11-11T01:15:29Z DGASAU: Riastradh: yeah, I remember this complaint. :)
2017-11-11T01:15:52Z aeth: DGASAU: Please tell me a language used by more than 100 people with a better type system than Shen? (Although, tbh, I don't know if Shen is used by more than 100 people.)
2017-11-11T01:16:13Z DGASAU: I don't know how many users it has.
2017-11-11T01:16:22Z DGASAU: Maybe more than 100, maybe less.
2017-11-11T01:16:35Z DGASAU: To me it seems certainly comparable to Shen.
2017-11-11T01:16:46Z DGASAU: E.g. Mercury.
2017-11-11T01:17:01Z jcowan: aeth: By "portable subset of the numeric tower", do you mean portable semantics or portable representation?
2017-11-11T01:17:23Z DGASAU: Or Aldor.
2017-11-11T01:17:25Z jcowan: e.g. complex numbers have different representations in Scheme and CL, but pretty much the same semantics
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2017-11-11T01:18:06Z aeth: jcowan: Portable enough representation to not cause issues. Being too specific (e.g. fixnum vs. bignum or maybe even the different kinds of float) probably won't work.
2017-11-11T01:18:07Z DGASAU: (Alright, Aldor is more algoloid, but so is R-Lisp. :)
2017-11-11T01:18:16Z aeth: jcowan: Complex is a good point
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2017-11-11T01:19:45Z DGASAU: In any case, making stupid claims with bold face doesn't make them less stupid.
2017-11-11T01:20:17Z aeth: DGASAU: The way I see it is that the niche that hasn't been found yet among Lisps is a very static Lisp. As in, doing everything at compile time where possible, including as much verification as possible.
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2017-11-11T01:20:48Z DGASAU: aeth: there was such a thing back in time.
2017-11-11T01:20:58Z DGASAU: Do you know how what it evolved into?
2017-11-11T01:21:07Z aeth: ML?
2017-11-11T01:21:10Z DGASAU: You should be aware of one of these languages.
2017-11-11T01:21:15Z DGASAU: It is Haskell.
2017-11-11T01:21:25Z aeth: I am aware of it, but it's not at all what I am thinking about.
2017-11-11T01:22:03Z DGASAU: There's a number of reasons why people want infix notation.
2017-11-11T01:22:23Z aeth: I am thinking about a very multiparadigm Lisp that uses type information and type aware macros to build a very efficient and as verified as possible program at compile time. No laziness. No purity. OCaml would be closer because that's multi-paradigm and afaik not lazy.
2017-11-11T01:22:38Z DGASAU: Given that it isn't that hard to support, insisting on all those parentheses is pretty stupid.
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2017-11-11T01:23:55Z DGASAU: "No purity" entails either loss of verifiability or very complex and hard to follow typing or typing and effect system.
2017-11-11T01:24:30Z aeth: The parentheses offer structural editing, a better multiline representation of division (i.e. (/ (+ ...)\n  (+ ...)\n  (+ ...)\n ...)), no chance for a precedence error, and even some degree of mathematical elegance such as (+) being 0 and (*) being 1 and + and * being arbitrary-length
2017-11-11T01:24:58Z aeth: And it makes it easier to autoindent and refactor structurally (and whitespace-significant languages can't even reliably do this at all!)
2017-11-11T01:25:12Z DGASAU: Parentheses are only marginally better in that, while causing a lot of headache to humans.
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2017-11-11T01:26:38Z aeth: No purity means being able to use it in high performance numerical computing without a magic compiler, which means being able to use the same language for both very fast code and very functional code. Haskell cannot be used for number crunching. A typed mutable Lisp could.
2017-11-11T01:27:00Z aeth: Sometimes the most straightforward and the most efficient solution is very mutable.
2017-11-11T01:27:23Z aeth: Side effects should be contained, though. Using pure functions to feed into mutable data structures seems perfectly reasonable.
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2017-11-11T01:27:51Z DGASAU: "HPC without magic compiler" is very strong magic. I don't know any case to support this.
2017-11-11T01:28:28Z DGASAU: Instead I know a lot of cases of the opposite.
2017-11-11T01:28:52Z aeth: Haskell is not a language for big numerical computations that need to be fast. Lisps aren't, either, but it would be much easier to take e.g. SBCL there than Haskell there because you could use many of the same mutable idioms as the high performance Fortran or C++.
2017-11-11T01:29:24Z DGASAU: I don't see any reason why that could be potentially possible.
2017-11-11T01:29:50Z aeth: SBCL generates more efficient code if you provide the optional type declarations, which quickly become not very optional when you're writing numeric code.
2017-11-11T01:29:58Z DGASAU: So what?
2017-11-11T01:30:05Z aeth: Not as efficient as C++ or Fortran, but more due to the lack of development than due to the language.
2017-11-11T01:30:18Z DGASAU: HPC data are MD arrays mostly.
2017-11-11T01:30:19Z aeth: You can take a mutable C++ algorithm and basically just write it in CL instead.
2017-11-11T01:31:11Z DGASAU: Typing system of FORTRAN IV is enough.
2017-11-11T01:31:50Z DGASAU: There exist a lot more important things in HPC than data types.
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2017-11-11T01:33:44Z aeth: A good static type system is still useful there, though. One thing that makes even SBCL not very suitable for numeric code is that the efficient code is generated through optional type declarations, rather than having better support for types built into the language. CL itself is a very dynamic language, e.g. you can redefine #'foo to return a string
2017-11-11T01:33:51Z jcowan: Riastradh: While you are here, can you fix the subject line, s/tspl/tspl4/?
2017-11-11T01:33:59Z DGASAU: aeth: Not. At. All.
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2017-11-11T01:35:04Z ChanServ has set mode +o Riastradh
2017-11-11T01:35:07Z aeth: The CL compiler doesn't know what #'foo will return when it's called (unless foo is inlined or you tell it (the 'single-float (foo ...)) or something similar, but the latter can be a lie if foo is redefined). This is an obstacle.
2017-11-11T01:35:08Z jcowan: aeth: ISLisp is a very static Lisp for everything except types
2017-11-11T01:35:09Z DGASAU: aeth: If you want to dispute that, I want to see at least proof-of-concept code that properly selects format, partitions sparse matrix and selects between Householder and Givence approaches to QR decomposition.
2017-11-11T01:35:10Z Riastradh changed the topic of #scheme to: (map surf-to '("http://paste.lisp.org/new/scheme" "http://ccl.clozure.com/irc-logs/scheme/" "http://schemers.org/" "http://community.schemewiki.org/" "http://library.readscheme.org/" "http://mitpress.mit.edu/sicp/" "http://swiss.csail.mit.edu/classes/6.001/abelson-sussman-lectures/" "http://www.htdp.org/" "http://www.scheme.com/tspl4/"))
2017-11-11T01:35:14Z jcowan: Thanks
2017-11-11T01:35:15Z Riastradh has set mode -o Riastradh
2017-11-11T01:36:02Z jcowan: aeth: Are you sure you mean #'? That returns a function, always
2017-11-11T01:36:12Z DGASAU: aeth: yes, the problem is artificial, yet it captures several essential problems in HPC.
2017-11-11T01:36:20Z aeth: jcowan: What I mean is, the CL compiler doesn't know what (foo 42f0) will return
2017-11-11T01:37:26Z aeth: It could return 43f0, "Hello, world!", a list (whose types it won't know), or anything else.
2017-11-11T01:38:08Z Ober: ISLisp source code is here somewhere
2017-11-11T01:38:10Z aeth: And since foo can be redefined, it can't know, unless it recompiles all users of foo when foo is recompiled.
2017-11-11T01:40:04Z DGASAU: If you make your Lisp dialect hyperstatic, how is that going to differ from Fortran in weird syntax?
2017-11-11T01:40:51Z aeth: For one, I can just take the solution I just named, which probably doesn't conform with one paragraph of the CL spec or some compiler would do it already. Or maybe people saw it as too slow when designing these compilers in the 90s
2017-11-11T01:41:02Z aeth: which is, I can recompile all users of foo when foo is recompiled.
2017-11-11T01:41:56Z aeth: So you still get the almost-interpreted-feeling REPL experience, without the compier not knowing what the type of (foo 42f0) is.
2017-11-11T01:42:02Z aeth: *compiler
2017-11-11T01:42:14Z DGASAU: BTW, are you aware of "ZINC Report"?
2017-11-11T01:42:35Z aeth: no
2017-11-11T01:43:20Z DGASAU: You need something to contend the claim made there that type-based optimizations are less useful than optimizations applicable without typing information.
2017-11-11T01:44:43Z DGASAU: This report is about designing highly optimized compilers for another descendant of your "typed Lisp" above.
2017-11-11T01:44:58Z jcowan: aeth: There is also the problem that in Scheme, 3+4i, 3+4.0i, and 3.0+4.0i may be all distinct, two distinct, or not distinct in the sense of eqv?.
2017-11-11T01:45:25Z jcowan: CL goes with the "two distinct" interpretation
2017-11-11T01:46:28Z aeth: DGASAU: Does the report make assumptions that apply to pure functional programming? Because in my mind, "immutable?" is type information.
2017-11-11T01:47:50Z aeth: e.g. an immutable cons pair is a different type than a mutable cons pair
2017-11-11T01:48:03Z DGASAU: May be. I don't remember. Its primary target is non-pure language, pure FP is out of its scope.
2017-11-11T01:48:15Z DGASAU: Oh, that...
2017-11-11T01:48:23Z DGASAU: Cons pairs are immutable there.
2017-11-11T01:49:09Z DGASAU: Anyway, before you continue dwelling on the HPC topic, I suggest that you at least get acquainted with "ZINC report."
2017-11-11T01:49:27Z aeth: You can do more with cons pairs if you know they're immutable. Probably even more if you know the type of the car of the cons.
2017-11-11T01:50:01Z DGASAU: And definitely you need to get acquainted with real HPC's problems.
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2017-11-11T01:50:33Z DGASAU: I assure you, they have nothing in common with mutability of cons pairs.
2017-11-11T01:50:47Z aeth: The particular numeric code I've been doing is game engine code, actually.
2017-11-11T01:51:26Z aeth: For that, I settled on Common Lisp as an acceptable compromise between performance and expressivity. It is not an ideal language, but it's not a terrible language, either.
2017-11-11T01:52:07Z DGASAU: Game engine doesn't sound as anything really close to HPC.
2017-11-11T01:53:07Z aeth: Game engine code is simpler because it makes simplifying assumptions, is focused more on real time than accuracy, and deals with matrices of size 4 instead of arbitrary matrices.
2017-11-11T01:53:43Z DGASAU: HPC doesn't deal with arbitrary matrices either.
2017-11-11T01:54:03Z DGASAU: It's just matrices are usually a lot larger than 4x4.
2017-11-11T01:55:11Z aeth: Interesting.
2017-11-11T01:55:59Z aeth: Games are far behind in their thinking (except in graphics). They're only now starting to run well on multiple threads (besides the traditional sound thread that was there for a long time).
2017-11-11T01:56:29Z DGASAU: The latter makes them lie outside of HPC.
2017-11-11T01:56:46Z aeth: It doesn't mean that they have to stay there, though.
2017-11-11T01:56:51Z DGASAU: At least in modern sense.
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2017-11-11T01:57:25Z mrm: aeth: I've come to really admire common-lisp's set of compiler directives.
2017-11-11T01:57:33Z aeth: DGASAU: e.g. If you have a client/server setup with an authoritative server, there's no reason why you have to have the traditional multi-threaded-but-one-powerful-thread setup.
2017-11-11T01:58:41Z DGASAU: aeth: I don't understand how that is relevant, if we continue talking about HPC.
2017-11-11T01:59:49Z aeth: mrm: I've come to recently find them lacking, though. e.g. You can't add to them because (declare (foo bar)) is overloaded syntax. If foo is something like dynamic-extent, it's saying to try to stack-allocate bar. If it's nothing built in, it's saying bar is of the user-defined type foo.
2017-11-11T02:00:14Z aeth: So what if your compiler wants to support a feature called foo? But someone already has a type with type declarations foo?
2017-11-11T02:01:56Z aeth: Afaik, you're stuck with the handful of declaration identifiers in figure 3-24 forever. http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/s_declar.htm
2017-11-11T02:03:11Z aeth: So e.g. what if you wanted to be able to declare something immutable so the compiler can optimize it more? You can't, afaik.
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2017-11-11T02:07:15Z aeth: DGASAU: I can't talk about compiler optimizations relevant specifically to HPC. I do think, though, that types are relevant there. If the compiler doesn't know if something's a single-float, it has to keep calling a generic + (unless you go the super-Scheme route and remove all generic procedures and have an int-+ and a fixnum-+ and a float-+ and...)
2017-11-11T02:07:42Z aeth: DGASAU: Can you tell me why that isn't a major issue?
2017-11-11T02:09:13Z DGASAU: Because you know it upfront that all you data have type like real(*) or real(*,*).
2017-11-11T02:09:39Z DGASAU: You know even the dimensions.
2017-11-11T02:09:50Z jcowan:  aeth: You talk as if type inference was inherently impossible
2017-11-11T02:10:04Z DGASAU: Thus all those typing is irrelevant.
2017-11-11T02:10:06Z aeth: jcowan: I suppose a JIT could solve this without type declarations. Is this what you mean?
2017-11-11T02:10:18Z jcowan: That too, but I meant AOT type inference
2017-11-11T02:10:32Z jcowan: (+ 3.0 x) pretty much has to have type float
2017-11-11T02:10:56Z DGASAU: Oh, and even simplistic type inference would definitely solve this problem.
2017-11-11T02:11:09Z aeth: jcowan: but doesn't that clash with the idiomatic Lisp and Scheme to have very tiny functions? You're hiding potentially useful inferences behind the function boundaries.
2017-11-11T02:11:39Z DGASAU: aeth: not in HPC.
2017-11-11T02:11:40Z jcowan: If the compiler can see them all, tiny functions don't hurt any: you can do interprocedural type inference, or you can inline.
2017-11-11T02:12:25Z jcowan: Or both.
2017-11-11T02:12:29Z aeth: At least in SBCL, the inferences only happen with inlining or with constant return values because foo could be redefined at any moment. I suppose that's not an issue with all Schemes, since that simply might not be permitted?
2017-11-11T02:12:33Z jcowan: Indeed, you want to inline for other reasons
2017-11-11T02:12:36Z DGASAU: Again, all your data belong to very restricted set of types.
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2017-11-11T02:12:52Z aeth: DGASAU: Yes, you know that, but does your compiler?
2017-11-11T02:12:53Z jcowan: aeth: No, nor with ISLisp where redefinition is an error.
2017-11-11T02:12:54Z DGASAU: They are either real, or real(*), or real(*,*).
2017-11-11T02:13:01Z DGASAU: aeth: yes, it does.
2017-11-11T02:13:16Z DGASAU: aeth: Remember that "god is real, unless declared integer."
2017-11-11T02:13:52Z aeth: jcowan: That's actually how SBCL gets efficient structs. It errors (although lets you continue anyway) if you redefine them, so it can assume the type of any struct access.
2017-11-11T02:13:57Z jcowan: Indeed, I have a back-burner plan to write a dialect of Scheme with Perl-style sigils on the variables (at the end rather than the beginning, but that's a trivial point)
2017-11-11T02:14:14Z DGASAU: aeth: In any case, writing type annotations is negligible problem in HPC context.
2017-11-11T02:14:28Z aeth: DGASAU: You are the first FORTRANer I've met, if you are a FORTRANer.
2017-11-11T02:14:31Z DGASAU: aeth: as I said, you definitely need to get acquainted with reality.
2017-11-11T02:14:40Z aeth: DGASAU: I can type infer you as a FORTRANer, but I'm imperfect.
2017-11-11T02:14:42Z DGASAU: aeth: no, I don't write in FORTRAN.
2017-11-11T02:14:47Z aeth: really?
2017-11-11T02:14:49Z DGASAU: Yes.
2017-11-11T02:15:06Z DGASAU: Writing in Fortran is a lot easier and more productive.
2017-11-11T02:15:25Z aeth: So no Fortran pre-1990 I guess :-p
2017-11-11T02:15:50Z aeth: (Sure I suppose Lisp had the same issue with LISP but it dropped the shouting a decade earlier)
2017-11-11T02:15:54Z DGASAU: Yes, I have experience of writing in Fortran-77.
2017-11-11T02:16:24Z DGASAU: I can do that, but why and what for?
2017-11-11T02:17:35Z aeth: DGASAU: Fortran officially changed its name to Fortran from FORTRAN in 1991 afaik. At least, that's what it appears like, e.g. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fortran#Fortran_90
2017-11-11T02:17:49Z aeth: (Compare with FORTRAN-77)
2017-11-11T02:17:50Z DGASAU: Doesn't matter much.
2017-11-11T02:18:37Z aeth: So what do you say to the hordes of people who say "just rewrite it in C++"?
2017-11-11T02:19:12Z DGASAU: What about array sections in C++?
2017-11-11T02:19:45Z DGASAU: Am I to implement them myself?
2017-11-11T02:20:36Z DGASAU: What about parallel/distributed programming?
2017-11-11T02:20:49Z DGASAU: Is there anything like CAF readily available?
2017-11-11T02:24:04Z DGASAU: Or maybe C++ started supporting matrix-vector and vector-vector products in language?
2017-11-11T02:24:36Z aeth: hmm
2017-11-11T02:24:48Z aeth: it wouldn't surprise me if C++ had matrices in its std library, either now or in the near future
2017-11-11T02:24:53Z aeth: C++ is massive
2017-11-11T02:24:58Z aeth: and it tries to be everything for everyone
2017-11-11T02:25:03Z aeth: (everyone who doesn't need strings!)
2017-11-11T02:25:07Z DGASAU: What about array sections?
2017-11-11T02:25:28Z aeth: Matrices are in boost, at least. http://www.boost.org/doc/libs/1_36_0/libs/numeric/ublas/doc/matrix.htm
2017-11-11T02:26:22Z aeth: From my limited C++ experience, that's the next best thing to standard.
2017-11-11T02:26:38Z aeth: (If anything in C++ can be described as "best")
2017-11-11T02:27:27Z DGASAU: aeth: I see a lot of iterators but not a single real BLAS operation there.
2017-11-11T02:27:34Z DGASAU: Where should I look exactly?
2017-11-11T02:27:55Z aeth: okay, here's the current version and the current subsection of boost, uBLAS. http://www.boost.org/doc/libs/1_65_1/libs/numeric/ublas/doc/index.html
2017-11-11T02:28:26Z aeth: Feel free to skim through it and then trash C++ in a more informed way when you find the flaws that are almost certainly there because it's C++
2017-11-11T02:29:41Z DGASAU: Anything else based on this?
2017-11-11T02:29:42Z aeth: It is not STL, but Boost is afaik the next step removed and is in so many C++ programs (almost every one that's large enough?).
2017-11-11T02:30:56Z aeth: STL containers is just this: http://www.cplusplus.com/reference/stl/
2017-11-11T02:32:16Z DGASAU: aeth: real BLAS has infrastructure around it.
2017-11-11T02:32:59Z DGASAU: If I am to write some prototypical numerical code, I don't want to invent spectral decomposition myself.
2017-11-11T02:33:34Z DGASAU: I want it readily-made and of good quality already.
2017-11-11T02:34:57Z aeth: ah
2017-11-11T02:35:05Z aeth: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basic_Linear_Algebra_Subprograms
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2017-11-11T02:35:23Z aeth: uBLAS is listed under "similar libraries but not compatible with BLAS"
2017-11-11T02:35:46Z DGASAU: Besides, if I have a subroutine that accepts, say, real(*,*) argument in this C++ way, is it going to accept real(*,*) in some other C++ way?
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2017-11-11T02:38:13Z DGASAU: If I need to manually convert between different representations just because you don't have standard support for MD arrays is not convincing argument to switch language.
2017-11-11T02:38:26Z DGASAU: Even when I know the language (which I do).
2017-11-11T02:38:51Z aeth: looks like there are literally dozens of different representations
2017-11-11T02:39:13Z aeth: good job, that's a good critique
2017-11-11T02:40:03Z DGASAU: Even if I neglect the last part and stick to uBLAS, I need LAPACK at the very least.
2017-11-11T02:41:19Z DGASAU: aeth: in general, Fortran-2003 looks a lot like statically-compiled Matlab already.
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2017-11-11T02:41:39Z DGASAU: With less libraries behind, though.
2017-11-11T02:41:41Z aeth: DGASAU: What do you think about Matlab? Numpy? Others?
2017-11-11T02:42:03Z DGASAU: Numpy sucks, when it doesn't use real programming language behind.
2017-11-11T02:42:08Z aeth: I am taking notes. You are enlightening.
2017-11-11T02:42:26Z DGASAU: Matlab sucks as a programming language, yet it shines as a tool.
2017-11-11T02:43:02Z DGASAU: Octave can be a good substitute for some problems, but in general it is not.
2017-11-11T02:43:33Z DGASAU: If you're studying math or CS, Octave is fine.
2017-11-11T02:43:55Z DGASAU: If you're studying some engineering, chemistry or physics, it may be insufficient already.
2017-11-11T02:45:11Z aeth: Every time I talk about language design and say "why not add matrices?" someone says "why not add tensors?" And I think that could be extended indefinitely. Complex? (hah, Lisps have them already) Quaternions? Dual quaternions? It quickly becomes impractical. Or does it?
2017-11-11T02:45:38Z DGASAU: Scratchpad, Aldor.
2017-11-11T02:45:39Z aeth: A lot of people would see the C++ approach as better, leaving linear algebra for the libraries, which might have different needs.
2017-11-11T02:45:48Z aeth: Or Python, I guess.
2017-11-11T02:46:03Z DGASAU: Python has one big problem with all of that.
2017-11-11T02:46:33Z DGASAU: It is insufficiently expressive to do the stuff symbolically.
2017-11-11T02:46:44Z DGASAU: And it is insufficiently powerful to do the stuff numerically.
2017-11-11T02:47:14Z aeth: hah
2017-11-11T02:47:41Z aeth: I think the Python approach is to generally be a high level "glue" layer on top of Fortran and/or C and/or C++.
2017-11-11T02:47:52Z DGASAU: You can't be serious, if inlining a couple of your subroutines manually speeds your program up by third.
2017-11-11T02:48:26Z jcowan: Then there's Julia
2017-11-11T02:48:36Z aeth: I've been hearing a lot about Julia lately.
2017-11-11T02:48:37Z DGASAU: Well... As a batch processing language, Python is fine. :)
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2017-11-11T02:50:52Z aeth: DGASAU: What do you do with Fortran?
2017-11-11T02:51:38Z DGASAU: aeth: not much recently, though there's a project in QC looming on horizon.
2017-11-11T02:51:58Z DGASAU: It isn't clear though whether it will be in Fortran or not.
2017-11-11T02:52:20Z DGASAU: I did QC, and I did NLP.
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2017-11-11T02:56:58Z DGASAU: Hm.
2017-11-11T02:57:39Z DGASAU: Actually, I know the case of "HPC without magic compiler".
2017-11-11T02:58:37Z DGASAU: Yet it is pretty weird.
2017-11-11T02:58:40Z DGASAU: It requires very special hardware support and very special programming skills.
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2017-11-11T03:01:05Z DGASAU: But then, the set of types even more restricted. :)
2017-11-11T03:02:06Z DGASAU: In general case you may have various trees and pointer-based graph structures,
2017-11-11T03:02:46Z DGASAU: in GPU case you have only MD arrays of booleans, integers and reals, and even the rank of array doesn't exceed 3.
2017-11-11T03:03:09Z DGASAU: jcowan: exactly the space for APL :D
2017-11-11T03:03:27Z DGASAU: Sort of.
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2017-11-11T03:11:54Z DGASAU: aeth: I forgot another thing: compared to Matlab Fortran has another compensation for the lack of libraries besides CAF, it is OpenMP.
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2017-11-11T09:45:37Z ecraven: aeth: did you ever consider adding records/structures to sxp?
2017-11-11T09:45:47Z ecraven: I find that I use them more and more, instead of nested list structure
2017-11-11T09:51:25Z aeth: I use them all the time, but I don't think they're needed here. The idea would be to serialize the record/struct/etc. to a list and back again if using this. So while you're reading in a list, it's really just going to be fed into make-foo.
2017-11-11T09:52:32Z aeth: But if you were using it to communicate between two applications, one could be using make-foo and the other could actually be JavaScript or something.
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2017-11-11T09:55:29Z aeth: e.g. if somehow it didn't have cons (which obviously it has to have) it could have (foo (car . 42) (cdr . 3)) turn into a call to (cons 42 3)
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2017-11-11T12:04:51Z ecraven: aeth: well, you could define some "standard" way of serializing a record to an "object" and back
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2017-11-11T13:30:57Z gwatt: but then you've re-invented WSDL, JSDL, etc in s-exprs
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2017-11-11T15:31:32Z ecraven: gwatt: not quite, there's a lot of boilerplate and incompatibilities in SOAP that you could avoid ;)
2017-11-11T15:32:22Z ecraven: also, you would need a schema to get the full record type definitions, there might just be a standard way to annotate what that type is, so that not every implementor chooses their own incompatible way (like SOAP with C# and Java)
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2017-11-11T16:47:47Z gwatt: could and might are pretty big qualifiers there
2017-11-11T16:49:13Z gwatt: though what you're talking about sounds quite a bit like the open api spec for json
2017-11-11T16:49:58Z gwatt: open api returns an object with two lists: endpoints and types
2017-11-11T16:50:52Z gwatt: the endpoints have a request and response type, and the list of types hold all of the nonstandard structures
2017-11-11T16:51:05Z gwatt: non standard meaning not native json types.
2017-11-11T16:52:10Z gwatt: if type A contains type a field "b" of type "B", that will be annotated like: "b": { "$ref": "B" }
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2017-11-11T16:57:24Z jcob: Hey, can anyone explain to me how the heck ... works in scheme macros?
2017-11-11T16:57:46Z wasamasa: do you know what it means?
2017-11-11T16:58:00Z jcob: Well, it repeats a pattern right?
2017-11-11T16:58:10Z wasamasa: it's like a body argument
2017-11-11T16:58:22Z wasamasa: it binds something to the preceding identifier once or more times
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2017-11-11T16:59:05Z wasamasa: in the expansion you must use the identifier with ... to splice in that body
2017-11-11T16:59:12Z C-Keen: it's like '+' in regexps
2017-11-11T16:59:22Z C-Keen: (inaccurately so)
2017-11-11T17:00:29Z wasamasa: the easiest example of ... is probably the when macro
2017-11-11T17:00:30Z C-Keen: do you do see stuff like (foo (bar x) body ...) where body ... is one or more expressions
2017-11-11T17:00:42Z C-Keen: s,do,,
2017-11-11T17:00:59Z wasamasa: you want to capture one or more expressions in when and in the expansion, wrap them into a begin
2017-11-11T17:05:46Z jcob: So for a more concrete example of how I dont understand it, here's an example of how I tried to write let as a macro:
2017-11-11T17:05:49Z jcob:  
2017-11-11T17:05:49Z jcob: (define-syntax my-let
2017-11-11T17:05:49Z jcob: 	  (syntax-rules ()
2017-11-11T17:05:49Z jcob: 	    ((_ ((varname varval) ...) body ...)
2017-11-11T17:05:52Z jcob: 	     ((lambda (vn vv ...)
2017-11-11T17:05:55Z jcob: 		body ...) varname varval ...))))
2017-11-11T17:06:07Z jcob: any pointers?
2017-11-11T17:06:29Z wasamasa: what is vn and vv?
2017-11-11T17:06:40Z jcob: variable name & variable value
2017-11-11T17:06:42Z wasamasa: every use of ... must happen at least twice
2017-11-11T17:06:53Z wasamasa: if you bind something to body ... you must expand to body ...
2017-11-11T17:07:15Z wasamasa: there is no corresponding capture for vv ...
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2017-11-11T17:32:07Z jcob: Okay so this is where I got, and its sorta working exept that I think I have to break it up into curried lambdas: https://hastebin.com/yovumujosi.lisp
2017-11-11T17:34:18Z jcob: Is that the right direction to go or is there a better way to solve it
2017-11-11T17:45:56Z jcob: Okay nvm I found out how to do it
2017-11-11T17:45:56Z jcob:  
2017-11-11T17:46:30Z jcob: By throwing things at the repl until it worked. and now I am even more confused about ellipses... lol
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2017-11-11T18:02:42Z mejja: jcob: https://hipster.home.xs4all.nl/lib/scheme/gauche/define-syntax-primer.txt
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2017-11-11T18:07:06Z jcob: mejja: thanks!
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2017-11-11T18:44:04Z ecraven: I might be incorrect, but doesn't ... signify zero or more, not one or more?
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2017-11-11T18:44:55Z wasamasa: well, I was speaking of how many expressions you get in the end
2017-11-11T18:45:14Z wasamasa: it's one or more, with the identifier accounting for one and ... for more (if there are any)
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2017-11-11T18:46:34Z ecraven: I've often seen (body0 body ...) in expansions, isn't that to guarantee that at least one body form is given?
2017-11-11T18:46:47Z wasamasa: mhh
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2017-11-11T18:48:35Z wasamasa: you may be right on that one
2017-11-11T18:48:42Z wasamasa: the only way to decide this is with code
2017-11-11T18:48:53Z Riastradh: Yes.  It detects certain errors a little sooner, which may be easier to debug.
2017-11-11T18:51:31Z ecraven: r7rs, page 23: "A subpattern followed by <ellipsis> can match zero or more elements of the input"
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2017-11-11T20:10:39Z aeth: ecraven: Yes, but this is supposed to be XML or JSON, not SOAP or SOAPjr (hah, of course someone remade SOAP in JSON)
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2017-11-11T20:41:56Z egnun: Hello, Schemers,
2017-11-11T20:41:56Z egnun: I am currently reading SICP and in chapter 1.1.5 (https://mitpress.mit.edu/sicp/full-text/book/book-Z-H-10.html#%_sec_1.1.5)
2017-11-11T20:41:56Z egnun: it says, that in Exercise 1.5 (https://mitpress.mit.edu/sicp/full-text/book/book-Z-H-10.html#%_thm_1.5) an interpreter that uses normal-order evaluation
2017-11-11T20:41:56Z egnun: would give a different result than one, that uses applicative-order evaluation.
2017-11-11T20:41:56Z egnun: Why would that be the case?
2017-11-11T20:45:13Z wasamasa: figuring that out is the exercise, no
2017-11-11T20:45:46Z wasamasa: your task is to pretend you're the evaluator and go evaluate the expression in both ways
2017-11-11T20:45:51Z egnun: I mean, wouldn't the result in both cases be an infinite loop,
2017-11-11T20:45:51Z egnun: because in both normal-order evaluation (noe) and applicative order evaluation (aoe) it would try to get the value of the function (p)?
2017-11-11T20:46:00Z wasamasa: that's skipping a few steps
2017-11-11T20:46:47Z ecraven: egnun: the point of the exercise is for you to find out that it is not - in fact - (p) in both evaluation strategies ;)
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2017-11-11T20:47:51Z egnun: ecraven: I know, that it is not (p), but it nevertheless tries to get the value of (p).
2017-11-11T20:49:05Z egnun: Or is it already satisfied in aoe, when it finds out that, x = 0?
2017-11-11T20:49:41Z ecraven: you might want to re-read that part of the chapter ;)
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2017-11-11T20:54:48Z egnun: Right, if you don't understand something, the best thing you could do, is to try to re-read the same explanation over and over and over again
2017-11-11T20:54:48Z egnun: until you're fed up with it.
2017-11-11T20:55:19Z egnun: If you don't want to help me, you could have told me so in the first place.
2017-11-11T20:56:31Z ecraven: egnun: well, normal order evaluates every parameter, *then* evaluates the function call. applicative order does not
2017-11-11T20:57:00Z ecraven: how does it help you if we just say yes or no, how would that make you understand better?
2017-11-11T20:57:32Z ecraven: maieutics, I think ;)
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2017-11-11T21:03:06Z egnun: It's not about "yes or no". It's about explaining why.
2017-11-11T21:03:06Z egnun: It's obvious that the formulations in the book are not helping me at this point. (also English is not my first language)
2017-11-11T21:03:06Z egnun: That's why I came here to ask.
2017-11-11T21:03:06Z egnun: Because I wanted to have an explanation, that helps me better to understand the topic than the explanation from the book does.
2017-11-11T21:04:08Z egnun: So, just telling me to re-read the chapter is kind of rude.
2017-11-11T21:04:08Z egnun: You could at least tell me, what part I misunderstood.
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2017-11-11T21:06:58Z ecraven: well, try to go through it by applicative order. evaluate (test 0 (p)), where do you start?
2017-11-11T21:07:14Z ecraven: do you evaluate test, 0 or (p)?
2017-11-11T21:10:41Z egnun: Well, I would evaluate from left to right.
2017-11-11T21:10:41Z egnun: What is test? What is 0? What is (p)?
2017-11-11T21:11:30Z ecraven: egnun: why would you go left from right for applicative order? does it say to go that way anywhere in the description above?
2017-11-11T21:11:43Z ecraven: (also, that is not a very good description imho, you might want to read another ;)
2017-11-11T21:12:59Z egnun: That is my f*cking point!
2017-11-11T21:13:07Z egnun: That's why I am asking!
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2017-11-11T21:13:48Z ecraven: so, the text above says to only evaluate what is needen
2017-11-11T21:13:57Z ecraven: you don't need 0 or (p) yet, but you do need test
2017-11-11T21:14:06Z ecraven: so, substitute the body of test into (test 0 (p))
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2017-11-11T21:14:09Z ecraven: what do you get?
2017-11-11T21:14:16Z egnun: the if-clause.
2017-11-11T21:14:31Z egnun: And that should print out 0
2017-11-11T21:14:38Z egnun: I know that.
2017-11-11T21:14:40Z ecraven: too fast, what do you get exactly?
2017-11-11T21:14:42Z ecraven: type it out
2017-11-11T21:14:51Z wasamasa: TIL that solving SICP exercises may make people aggressive
2017-11-11T21:15:23Z egnun: (if (= x 0) 0 y))
2017-11-11T21:15:41Z ecraven: no, that's not substituting
2017-11-11T21:15:47Z ecraven: substitute 0 for x and (p) for y
2017-11-11T21:15:57Z ecraven: (this is also called "reduction")
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2017-11-11T21:56:55Z egnun: So, everything is back in the right order.
2017-11-11T21:56:55Z egnun: We misunderstood each other and I misunderstood the book. (Again the English. It's complicated.)
2017-11-11T21:56:55Z egnun: And Scheme is still an interesting language, that I definitely want to learn. :-)
2017-11-11T21:57:08Z egnun: Sorry, for yelling at you, folks.
2017-11-11T21:57:18Z egnun: I had a rough day.
2017-11-11T21:57:40Z ecraven: no problem, come back with questions any time ;)
2017-11-11T21:59:58Z egnun: I will. ;-)
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2017-11-11T22:04:41Z ovenpasta: hi :)
2017-11-11T22:05:23Z wasamasa: oh noes, it's a tray of pasta
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2017-11-11T22:06:29Z ovenpasta: ;D
2017-11-11T22:07:50Z wasamasa: please don't erupt in our face
2017-11-11T22:07:57Z ovenpasta: someone know
2017-11-11T22:08:03Z ovenpasta: to implement alist?
2017-11-11T22:08:31Z ovenpasta: I mean... really "alist?" predicate...
2017-11-11T22:11:51Z wasamasa: hm
2017-11-11T22:11:58Z wasamasa: the problem is that alists aren't well defined
2017-11-11T22:12:12Z wasamasa: ((this is) (still an alist))
2017-11-11T22:12:31Z wasamasa: it's a list where each item must be a pair
2017-11-11T22:13:14Z wasamasa: the car of an alist item is typically a symbol and the cdr an atom, but that's not a requirement
2017-11-11T22:14:07Z mejja: atom?
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2017-11-11T22:16:32Z ovenpasta: my problem is when I have another alist as the cdr of one of the items
2017-11-11T22:17:08Z ovenpasta: take a look at this: json->string implementation https://pastebin.com/z5b1N8X9
2017-11-11T22:17:43Z ovenpasta: I must distinguish between alist and list as to create the proper json structure... that is dict and list
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2017-11-11T22:19:29Z wasamasa: I'd suggest to use a distinct type
2017-11-11T22:19:36Z wasamasa: like, vectors for json arrays
2017-11-11T22:19:45Z wasamasa: or srfi-69 hash tables for json objects
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2017-11-11T22:21:34Z ovenpasta: > (json->string '((a . b) (c . d)))
2017-11-11T22:21:34Z ovenpasta: "{\n  \"a\" : b,\n  \"c\" : d\n}\n"
2017-11-11T22:21:34Z ovenpasta: > (json->string '((a . ((e . f) (g . h))) (c . d)))
2017-11-11T22:21:34Z ovenpasta: Exception in json->string: error unknown type for (g . h)
2017-11-11T22:21:36Z ovenpasta: Type (debug) to enter the debugger.
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2017-11-11T22:22:24Z ovenpasta: > (json->string '(a b c))
2017-11-11T22:22:24Z ovenpasta: "[a,b,c]\n"
2017-11-11T22:22:24Z ovenpasta: > (json->string '(a b (d e f)))
2017-11-11T22:22:24Z ovenpasta: "[a,b,[d,e,f]\n]\n"
2017-11-11T22:24:46Z ovenpasta: or ... I could create a tag in front of each list to specify the type of the object
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2017-11-11T22:44:03Z ovenpasta: ok I managed to do it.. simply adding a tag dict in front of each assoc list...
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2017-11-12T03:15:10Z laertus: stumpwm is a window manager based on common lisp
2017-11-12T03:15:14Z laertus: are there any based on scheme?
2017-11-12T03:21:24Z jcowan: laertus: Stumpwm is based on Guile.
2017-11-12T03:22:37Z laertus: oh really?  because their introduction docs say "There are a number of ways to start StumpWM but the most straight forward method is as follows. This assumes you have a copy of the StumpWM source code and are using the ‘SBCL’ Common Lisp environment."
2017-11-12T03:22:52Z laertus: why is sbcl involved if it's based on guile?
2017-11-12T03:23:36Z jcowan: Hmm, that is confusing
2017-11-12T03:24:28Z jcowan: Sorry, I meant scwm, not stumpwm.  I have never used either
2017-11-12T03:24:31Z laertus: oh
2017-11-12T03:25:00Z jcowan: scwm is basically fvwm with Guile instead of fvwm's config language
2017-11-12T03:25:17Z laertus: according to:  http://scwm.sourceforge.net/
2017-11-12T03:25:23Z laertus: the last release of scwm was in 2000
2017-11-12T03:26:07Z laertus: maybe i should modify my question to be about actively developed window managers based on scheme
2017-11-12T03:28:06Z laertus: hmm.. i just found RWind:  https://github.com/Metaxal/RWind/
2017-11-12T03:28:13Z laertus: based on racket
2017-11-12T03:28:35Z laertus: unforunately raco, the racket package manager, is segfaulting on me... :(
2017-11-12T03:29:56Z jcowan: If it works for you, so what if it hasn't changed.  Do you worry that grep is not being "actively developed"?
2017-11-12T03:31:31Z laertus: did xorg even exist back in 2000?
2017-11-12T03:32:00Z laertus: i would be shocked if scwm even worked with xorg today
2017-11-12T03:32:11Z jcowan: The X protocol has been around since 1984 and took its current form in 1987
2017-11-12T03:32:18Z laertus: i'd even be surprised if i managed to get it to compile
2017-11-12T03:32:40Z laertus: yes, but it wasn't xorg back then.. it was xfree86 on linux
2017-11-12T03:32:47Z laertus: a lot has changed in X since 1987
2017-11-12T03:32:58Z laertus: since 2000 even
2017-11-12T03:33:22Z jcowan: I've seen Motif applications running fine on x.org X.
2017-11-12T03:34:14Z laertus: if so, that's probably the exception.. and probably part of some actively maintained package.. not from something that hasn't been touched in 17 years
2017-11-12T03:36:14Z laertus: anyway, there are all sorts of features that modern X servers have that scwm is doubtlessly clueless about
2017-11-12T03:36:34Z laertus: like multiple monitors, even monitors with resolution larger than 1024x768 or something
2017-11-12T03:36:50Z laertus: urgency hints, transparency.. the list goes on and on
2017-11-12T03:37:16Z laertus: there's no way using a window manager from 2000 is going to be anywhere close to a pleasant experience form anyone used to a modern window manager.. no way
2017-11-12T03:38:38Z laertus: cool that it's in scheme, though.. and maybe it has some interesting ideas that could be adopted in a new window manager
2017-11-12T03:41:34Z jcowan: Well, all you can do is try it.  Or not.
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2017-11-12T03:43:23Z laertus: i don't think i'm that desperate
2017-11-12T03:43:55Z laertus: i'll try rwind, though.. if i can get raco not to segfault on me
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2017-11-12T03:47:06Z jcowan: I don't use wm's myself; I run GUI programs natively in Windows for the most part, and use Cygwin and Ubuntu-on-Windows strictly CLI.  And if I did want to run an X-specific program, I'd use Cygwin/X, which by default has no root window and no real need for a wm.
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2017-11-12T03:50:18Z laertus: i've used i3 under cygwin
2017-11-12T03:50:38Z laertus: it was nice, for the times i did want a wm... like when i had multiple windows open
2017-11-12T03:50:53Z laertus: btw, you are using a wm if you use windows:  the windows wm
2017-11-12T03:51:12Z laertus: it's just not advertised as such.. but that's exactly what it is
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2017-11-14T04:27:39Z waveprop: which scheme should i start with
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2017-11-14T04:31:10Z JuanDaugherty: racket prolly
2017-11-14T04:32:46Z waveprop: what about scheme48
2017-11-14T04:33:26Z JuanDaugherty: oh, i thought you meant implementations
2017-11-14T04:34:01Z waveprop: JuanDaugherty: i did, forgive my ignorance. i thought racket added a bunch of things to scheme
2017-11-14T04:34:41Z JuanDaugherty: 'scheme' is the name of one of the two major surviving lisp dialects
2017-11-14T04:35:15Z waveprop: okay. so there is no reference implementation by the same name
2017-11-14T04:35:19Z JuanDaugherty: the other being common lisp which has a single standard, both have a plethora of implementations
2017-11-14T04:36:27Z waveprop: then i suppose what i want is something close to a referenc implementation of the scheme dialect
2017-11-14T04:36:33Z JuanDaugherty: unlike cl, racket could maybe be considered the most popular/ref implementation for scheme
2017-11-14T04:37:13Z JuanDaugherty: but unlike cpython, there's no reference implementation for either
2017-11-14T04:38:25Z waveprop: okay. thank you. you you think i would be able to use racket to work through the classic scheme books like litte schemer and structure and interp. of computer programs?
2017-11-14T04:38:38Z JuanDaugherty: definitely
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2017-11-14T04:39:21Z waveprop: JuanDaugherty: perfect. thanks again!
2017-11-14T04:39:33Z JuanDaugherty: np
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2017-11-14T04:52:47Z gwatt: waveprop: racket has a special mode for at least sicp
2017-11-14T04:54:00Z waveprop: gwatt: oh, okay that's cool
2017-11-14T04:54:22Z waveprop: i think my os comes with racket
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2017-11-14T04:58:45Z waveprop: i want to get an old hardcover copy or sicp. do you suppose the updated, free, online version is a better starting point
2017-11-14T04:58:50Z waveprop: s/or/of/
2017-11-14T04:59:26Z waveprop: if there is some arcane benefit of a previous edition please speak
2017-11-14T04:59:58Z waveprop: for examlpe some of Stevens old books on unix were more less verbose than later editions
2017-11-14T05:01:35Z waveprop: Strousup and Tannenbaum are others
2017-11-14T05:01:47Z waveprop: s/sup/strup/
2017-11-14T05:02:09Z waveprop: anyway, thanks and sorry for the noise
2017-11-14T05:10:40Z gwatt: waveprop: no idea, never has sicp in print
2017-11-14T05:10:46Z gwatt: the web versions seem ok
2017-11-14T05:14:02Z happy_gnu[m]: Hello
2017-11-14T05:14:15Z happy_gnu[m]: Does anyone needs help with some project
2017-11-14T05:14:21Z happy_gnu[m]: I can help
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2017-11-14T05:43:15Z JuanDaugherty TIL: 'equitation'.
2017-11-14T05:46:05Z edgar-rft: JuanDaugherty, I've heard instead of eq?, eqv?, equal? they use horses
2017-11-14T05:46:33Z JuanDaugherty: edgar-rft, i c
2017-11-14T05:49:20Z edgar-rft: Integrated Circuit, Information Center, Iowa City, Ice Cream ...
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2017-11-14T06:04:12Z JuanDaugherty had heard of dressage of course, but hunt/saddle seat and western are news
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2017-11-14T06:32:03Z ecraven: waveprop: if you run racket with r7rs, you get a mostly conforming Scheme ;)
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2017-11-14T06:57:45Z mrm: The mutable/immutable-list thing is an endless source of headaches however.
2017-11-14T06:58:06Z ecraven: not in r7rs mode, you get mutable lists there
2017-11-14T06:58:20Z ecraven: of course, many of rackets list functions *don't* take mutable lists, so you run into that problem..
2017-11-14T07:00:46Z mrm: That's what I mean.
2017-11-14T07:05:14Z mrm: I'm not sure why they didn't just make car/cdr work for both mutable and immutable cons cells when they initially made the change. It would have made interop so much easier, with no real downsides that I can see.
2017-11-14T07:05:56Z ecraven: mrm: performance is the only thing I can think about ;
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2017-11-14T07:06:19Z mrm: ecraven: If you call unsafe-car or unsafe-mcdr on a racket mutable cons cell, or unsafe-cons / unsafe-cdr on a normal cons cell, they both work.
2017-11-14T07:06:57Z ecraven: mrm: yes, but they probably both check on each call whether they get a cons or an mpair, so that's "lost" performance
2017-11-14T07:06:58Z mrm: ecraven: IIRC, they're exactly the same aside from a tag-bit in the pointer.
2017-11-14T07:07:00Z ecraven: just guessing though
2017-11-14T07:08:03Z mrm: Yes, but you're just checking some tag bits either way. You'd only need a single mask to determine if something is either a cons or mpair.
2017-11-14T07:08:58Z ecraven: hm.. actually, they need to check for cons anyway, to report errors, so there's no performance reason at all
2017-11-14T07:11:59Z mrm: Granted, there *is* a difference with the new chez backend, since mutable cons cells are structs, which have a different internal layout. But obviously that couldn't have been a reason at the time.
2017-11-14T07:13:29Z ecraven: I've asked in #racket, let's see whether anyone remembers ;)
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2017-11-14T07:16:02Z mrm: Honestly, I think it'll just boil down to someone thinking it was 'cleaner', and since the conversation around r6rs and all was so acrimonious at the time, no one really cared about the massive interop benefits.
2017-11-14T07:18:39Z mrm: That at least seemed to be the feeling I got from reading http://blog.racket-lang.org/2007/11/getting-rid-of-set-car-and-set-cdr.html
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2017-11-14T13:10:53Z gwatt: ecraven: https://github.com/gwatt/chez-exe/
2017-11-14T13:12:13Z gwatt: though right now it only works for linux
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2017-11-14T13:27:26Z ecraven: gwatt: now *that* is something I'm very interested in!
2017-11-14T13:27:37Z ecraven: could this be used to also include ffi'd extensions?
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2017-11-14T13:55:20Z gwatt: hmm
2017-11-14T13:55:22Z gwatt: maybe
2017-11-14T13:55:36Z gwatt: certainly if you distributed them alongside
2017-11-14T13:55:52Z gwatt: but I suspect that's not what you want
2017-11-14T13:56:19Z ecraven: well, it would be ok to just copy them into the same directory, but I'd prefer not having to set LD_PRELOAD or similar
2017-11-14T13:57:06Z gwatt: I'll think on it
2017-11-14T13:58:18Z ecraven: cool
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2017-11-14T14:19:31Z gwatt: right now you can't even embed scheme library code
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2017-11-14T14:20:52Z gwatt: though, if you had an object file or static library, you could link it to the embed_target
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2017-11-14T14:40:49Z mrm: gwatt: Is it neccesary to include both a boot file section and a scheme section?
2017-11-14T14:42:04Z gwatt: mrm: yes.
2017-11-14T14:42:26Z gwatt: The bootfile contains the chez scheme system.
2017-11-14T14:42:36Z gwatt: the scheme program file is whatever code you want to run
2017-11-14T14:43:40Z mrm: Why wouldn't you just build a smaller boot file for the code you want to run?
2017-11-14T14:44:04Z gwatt: because that's harder
2017-11-14T14:45:44Z ecraven: mrm: I'd be interested in a way to deploy chez scheme programs as pure executables to remote machines, without having to actually install chez scheme on the system
2017-11-14T14:45:56Z ecraven: there are no packages for the usual server distributions :-/
2017-11-14T14:46:07Z ecraven: also, update-safety etc.
2017-11-14T14:46:10Z mrm: Why? Just add a chez interface that lets you call make-boot-file on some following code.
2017-11-14T14:47:00Z gwatt: I'm not following what you mean.
2017-11-14T14:49:07Z mrm: So, you have some scheme file "foo.ss" that defines your scheme-start function for your executable. Compile to foo.so, then call (make-boot-file "foo.boot" '() "foo.so").
2017-11-14T14:50:56Z ecraven: mrm: do I need to deliver anything except for the executable and that boot file to run the application on another host?
2017-11-14T14:51:07Z gwatt: mrm: does that even work?
2017-11-14T14:51:33Z gwatt: the documentation states that you should reference the primary boot file.
2017-11-14T14:52:05Z mrm: gwatt: It's how the petite boot file is built. Though, you might need to use the same so files it uses, and just append your thing defining foo.so last.
2017-11-14T14:52:16Z gwatt: http://cisco.github.io/ChezScheme/csug9.5/system.html#./system:s74
2017-11-14T14:52:40Z gwatt: mrm: right, ok. that's not a thing I really want to do.
2017-11-14T14:52:58Z gwatt: I'd rather just grab the entire full chezscheme.
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2017-11-14T15:11:30Z jcowan_: Chez has such a large runtime, it's not worthwhile creating full executables.
2017-11-14T15:12:47Z jcowan_: Here are the schemes that support stand-alone executables:  Bigloo, Chicken, Gambit, Owl Lisp, Racket, Rhizome/pi, RScheme, Scheme->C, Stalin
2017-11-14T15:14:36Z jcowan_: most of them compile to C, or at least have that capability
2017-11-14T15:15:55Z ventonegro: I even built Gambit once against the musl C lib, so gsc produced completely static executables that could run in any server
2017-11-14T15:15:55Z mrm: I mean, it's "not worth it" for chez to the same extent as racket. The petite boot file is 1MB. Racket executables frequently exceed that, *and* have runtime dependencies on racket dynamic libs.
2017-11-14T15:16:17Z gwatt: jcowan_: ^^ is correct.
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2017-11-14T15:17:07Z gwatt: I just compiled a simple hello world and just the exe exceeds 6MB
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2017-11-14T15:17:46Z mrm: gwatt: Is that using racket/base ? I think a hello world with racket/base is usually around 0.5 MB.
2017-11-14T15:18:21Z gwatt: mrm: yes, racket base but re-distributable
2017-11-14T15:18:32Z mrm: Ah.
2017-11-14T15:18:39Z gwatt: i'll try non
2017-11-14T15:19:21Z gwatt: even without, it's 6.5
2017-11-14T15:19:58Z mrm: :-/ Oh well. Yea, I rest my case.
2017-11-14T15:20:19Z gwatt: though really it seems like selecting the "Distribution" option only creates a dmg
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2017-11-14T15:23:34Z mrm: The more I dig into it, the more disappointed I am in racket's performance / implementation. On the whole, the combined package is my favorite language to actually work with, but inside, it reminds me of a pleasant-looking room with everything stuffed messily in the closet.
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2017-11-14T15:29:14Z jcowan_: mrm: True, which is why the Racket/Chez project is underway
2017-11-14T15:29:17Z wasamasa: mrm: this is a funny thing to say considering how good it is in benchmarks
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2017-11-14T15:30:12Z mrm: wasamasa: I'm comparing against reading the chez source, which is the only other implementation I've really looked at.
2017-11-14T15:31:31Z jcowan_: Racket's performance comes from its JIT
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2017-11-14T15:33:14Z wasamasa: jcowan_: JITs are the magic solution for looking good in benchmarks :>
2017-11-14T15:34:08Z qu1j0t3: <_<
2017-11-14T15:34:09Z qu1j0t3: >_>
2017-11-14T15:34:18Z qu1j0t3: and in production #funnythat
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2017-11-14T15:36:54Z mrm: wasamasa: Anyways, I meant the analogy in the sense of something positive genuinely achieved while still neglecting everything outside that scope. Memory usage and compile times are what I had in mind as 'messy closets'.
2017-11-14T15:37:38Z wasamasa: mrm: perhaps you'd have fun with the newish memusage script
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2017-11-14T15:38:21Z mrm: wasamasa: Oh?
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2017-11-14T15:38:41Z jcowan_ chuckels
2017-11-14T15:38:46Z jcowan_: chuckles, even
2017-11-14T15:38:53Z wasamasa: mrm: the glibc people came up with it, it hooks into a program's malloc/free calls and can also trace the stack pointer
2017-11-14T15:39:54Z jcowan_: I feel like Racket was written by generation on generation of students, whereas Chez is a small sharp team, mostly just one person
2017-11-14T15:40:22Z C-Keen: what does that feel like?
2017-11-14T15:40:43Z wasamasa: mrm: unfortunately it's rather useless for compiled programs with CHICKEN, the only thing working with it is massif which tells me it's doing rather chunky allocations all the time
2017-11-14T15:41:33Z mrm: I think it's more like, generations of students, with one insanely sharp but overworked mflatt cleaning up after them with performance in the c core.
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2017-11-14T15:49:51Z mrm: Anyhow, on the subject of chez: "There's a fine line between optimization and not being stupid." -- dybvig
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2017-11-14T15:57:30Z qu1j0t3: lol, yeah. i always used to say performance is 90% just not being stupid.
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2017-11-14T16:00:31Z jcowan_: C-Keen: grotty
2017-11-14T16:01:03Z C-Keen: :)
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2017-11-14T16:21:41Z jonaslund: 6mb is pretty tiny these days
2017-11-14T16:22:13Z jonaslund: sure if you're on an embedded platform but then again on those small platforms you probably want a specialized runtime or even drop down to C or C++
2017-11-14T16:22:49Z gwatt: you could use armpit scheme
2017-11-14T16:23:11Z jonaslund: Oh i was more on about the argument of 6mb being "big"
2017-11-14T16:23:37Z jonaslund: one popular way of embedding "HTML" applications on _phones_ is some chrome variant weighting in at 25mb on the base
2017-11-14T16:24:31Z gwatt: well, someone said that the chez scheme runtime was too big to create a standalone exe and have it be worthwhile
2017-11-14T16:24:54Z jcowan_ did
2017-11-14T16:25:07Z gwatt: which, with what I did it comes to <3MB, so I was countering with that
2017-11-14T16:25:21Z gwatt: * countering with the example of racket
2017-11-14T16:27:33Z jonaslund: star wars battlefront 2
2017-11-14T16:27:39Z gwatt: ?
2017-11-14T16:27:46Z jonaslund: had a release-day patch sized 7 GB
2017-11-14T16:27:55Z gwatt: heh
2017-11-14T16:28:08Z gwatt: iirc witcher 3 had  a patch about that big.
2017-11-14T16:28:12Z gwatt: not release day though
2017-11-14T16:28:22Z jonaslund: correct me if i'm wrong but chez scheme is one of the faster ones ?
2017-11-14T16:28:50Z gwatt: fastest according to ecraven's benchmarks
2017-11-14T16:29:26Z jonaslund: for the ones who value performance, embedding chez scheme for speed might well be worth it regardless of 10kb or 10mb since "larger" applications of that kind will probably have a big footprint from other things
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2017-11-14T16:31:37Z gwatt: and so called "fat" exes are common now. golang does it. My company creates fat jars for our deployments.
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2017-11-14T16:33:06Z jonaslund: i mean i can acknowledge the idea of not fattening up linux distributions or making bloated embedded applications
2017-11-14T16:34:00Z jonaslund: but for those of us who work with applications that are targeted for end users (games being my field) we often value being able to distribute one package that will work widely and preferably with performance
2017-11-14T16:34:29Z gwatt: just one of our deployable apps is 89M zipped
2017-11-14T16:34:42Z gwatt: jonaslund: what kind of games have you made?
2017-11-14T16:35:57Z jonaslund: in the past i worked on dreamcast/ps2/xbox (original) games and mobile games (mostly j2me era)
2017-11-14T16:36:50Z plathrop: Both as a developer and as a systems operator, my career has taught me that so-called "fat" artifacts are the best.
2017-11-14T16:37:15Z gwatt: certainly easier to distribute
2017-11-14T16:38:15Z jonaslund: plathrop: what kind of systems operator ?
2017-11-14T16:40:33Z plathrop: jonaslund: Hard to answer clearly, but my career path has been windows sysadmin (college) -> linux sysadmin -> distributed systems engineer (still linux, some other *nix) -> developer -> distributed systems architect. So... I'd say mostly "distributed systems operator, mostly *nix based)
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2017-11-14T16:41:34Z plathrop: Was doing "DevOps" before that was a thing.
2017-11-14T16:42:19Z plathrop: But the advantages of fat artifacts are that it is much easier to do repeatable deployments, trusted deployments, and the like. It is much easier to control the environment.
2017-11-14T16:42:36Z plathrop: It's much easier to isolate problems as well
2017-11-14T16:42:49Z plathrop: And repeatable builds make both developers and operators happy :-)
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2017-11-14T16:49:20Z jonaslund: plathrop: right, i usually heard that the sysadmin side of things was the main reason for keeping things dynamically loaded
2017-11-14T16:49:49Z jonaslund: but i guess devops kind of system management is more fitting to this than managing user deployments
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2017-11-14T17:54:13Z plathrop: jonaslund: Well, there's a strong technical argument for dynamic linking, around patch management, but it is really only compelling in a world where there's a ops/dev "wall"
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2017-11-15T15:31:00Z jusss: http://paste.ubuntu.com/25968192/
2017-11-15T15:31:32Z jusss: why (remove-atom '(1 2 3) '() 2) can't get '(1 3)?
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2017-11-15T15:32:43Z jcowan: jusss: What Scheme are you using?
2017-11-15T15:32:54Z jusss: jcowan: racket
2017-11-15T15:34:27Z jcowan: Tell me in English what the procedure should do.
2017-11-15T15:35:54Z jusss: jcowan: remove atom from a list and return the list
2017-11-15T15:36:06Z jusss: atom or call element
2017-11-15T15:36:43Z jusss: like (remove-atom '(1 2 3 4) '() 3) I expect '(1 2 4)
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2017-11-15T15:41:26Z jusss: jcowan: are you still there?
2017-11-15T15:41:54Z jcowan: yes
2017-11-15T15:43:03Z jcowan: In the recursive step, you are consing the atom you want to remove back onto blist
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2017-11-15T15:47:39Z jusss: jcowan: sorry, network is down just now
2017-11-15T15:48:02Z jusss: jcowan: can you tell me again please
2017-11-15T15:48:20Z jcowan: In the recursive step, you are consing the atom you want to remove back onto blist
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2017-11-15T15:50:49Z jusss: jcowan: but I did use (eq? (car alist) atom) to compare and decide cons atom into blist or not
2017-11-15T15:51:25Z jcowan: okay yes, sorry.  I'm in a meeting and distracted
2017-11-15T15:52:16Z jcowan: You should be asking if alist is empty, rather than if its cdr is empty
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2017-11-15T15:53:49Z jusss: if it's '(a) then (cdr '(a)) is empty and compare 'a with atom decide if cons 'a into blist
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2017-11-15T15:58:46Z jusss: jcowan: sorry, I have to go, I'll back tonight, bye
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2017-11-15T15:59:54Z jcowan: jusss: You are trying to do two things at once.  First handle the termination condition, then figure out what to do when the car is right, then what to do when it's wrong.  Use cond.
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2017-11-15T18:07:28Z jcob: Hey guys im kinda struggling with this https://hastebin.com/ewahonefef.lisp
2017-11-15T18:08:33Z jcob: Could anyone give me pointers? ive been struggling for the last 20 mins
2017-11-15T18:10:45Z ecraven: that pastebin is broken. it doesn't work in text browsers
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2017-11-15T18:11:48Z ecraven: says flatten is undefined here ;) you probably have that?
2017-11-15T18:13:18Z jcob: I am litterally retarted, I added an extra ) on my test call
2017-11-15T18:13:25Z jcob: It works lmao
2017-11-15T18:13:36Z jcob: and yeah flatten exists in chicken for free for some reason
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2017-11-15T19:42:54Z takitus: What's usual protocol for closing off finished SRFI-18 threads? Call thread-join! on each, or will the resources be reclaimed without further action?
2017-11-15T19:43:39Z takitus: I'm dealing with the Chicken (green threads) implementation, specifically.
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2017-11-16T00:28:45Z gwatt: ecraven: you were asking about bundling DLLs with my chez-exe project?
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2017-11-16T01:51:31Z jusss: jcowan: hi
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2017-11-16T01:53:07Z jusss: http://paste.ubuntu.com/25968192/
2017-11-16T01:53:46Z jusss:  (remove-atom '(1 2 3) '() 2)  I expect '(1 3) but got '(2 1)
2017-11-16T01:53:51Z jusss: anyone help
2017-11-16T02:00:07Z jcowan: You need to test first whether alist is empty; that's the base case of the recursion.
2017-11-16T02:00:21Z jcowan: If not, then you can test whether its car is the atom you want to remove.
2017-11-16T02:00:37Z jcowan: jusss: ^^
2017-11-16T02:05:52Z defanor: though that code is not nice, it seems to be mostly working, apart from the (cons atom blist) bit: it probably was supposed to be (cons (car alist) blist). and from reversing the list at once
2017-11-16T02:06:29Z defanor: the (eq? 2 (car '(2 3))) => #f thing in that paste is strange
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2017-11-16T02:15:19Z jcowan: I wish the R2RS committee had had the courage to get rid of eq?
2017-11-16T02:16:27Z jcowan: perhaps in those days the tiny performance improvement over eqv? was necessary, but I doubt it
2017-11-16T02:17:12Z takitus: jcowan: Is there a historical reason why so many scheme books are full of eq?
2017-11-16T02:17:37Z jcowan: In the beginning of Lisp there was only eq and equal
2017-11-16T02:17:51Z jcowan: eql (CL) and eqv? (Scheme) are much later growths
2017-11-16T02:18:35Z jcowan: McCarthy defined eq to work only on atoms, but the implementation (pointer comparison) worked on lists, and so it stuck
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2017-11-16T02:19:18Z takitus: jcowan: Interesting, thanks!
2017-11-16T02:19:19Z jusss: which I should use to intead of eq?
2017-11-16T02:19:21Z jcowan: The rule that eq? doesn't work on characters and numbers is inherited from MacLisp, where there were no immediates
2017-11-16T02:19:24Z jcowan: eqv?.
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2017-11-16T02:19:36Z jusss: I will try
2017-11-16T02:20:00Z jcowan: In practice, eq? works on characters and fixnums on most systems, but not on other numbers
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2017-11-16T02:20:44Z jusss: jcowan: same
2017-11-16T02:22:07Z jcowan: in principle, comparing really big bignums could take a looooooooooooong time, but such bignums are not very common, and if your program uses them intensively, slow eqv? is the least of your problems.
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2017-11-16T02:32:45Z jusss: jcowan: try this one http://paste.ubuntu.com/25971747/
2017-11-16T02:32:50Z jusss: it works fine
2017-11-16T02:33:59Z jusss: I try (eq? '() '(1 2)) and (eq? '() '())  it seems work
2017-11-16T02:34:58Z jcowan: Your lines 5 and 8 test the same condition
2017-11-16T02:35:44Z jcowan: in fact, line 8 is never reachable at all
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2017-11-16T02:38:05Z jusss: jcowan: you're wrong, line 8 is most reach
2017-11-16T02:38:25Z jusss: jcowan: when it's not a empty list and not just one element, it will reach line 8
2017-11-16T02:39:38Z jcowan: You're right, but it's still the case that the tests in 5 and 8 are identical, and the behavior in 6-7 and 9-10 are identical, so the test in 4 is pointless.
2017-11-16T02:39:59Z jusss: even it's repeat, if alist is empty reach line 3, it alist is only one element list, it will reach 4,
2017-11-16T02:41:23Z jusss: jcowan: your're right, I will change it
2017-11-16T02:43:13Z jusss: jcowan: http://paste.ubuntu.com/25971776/
2017-11-16T02:43:31Z jusss: this one should be proper
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2017-11-16T02:58:51Z takitus: jusss: Why not just (append (filter (lambda (x) (not (eqv? x atom))) alist) blist) ?
2017-11-16T03:02:01Z takitus: jusss: [Or the equivalent with remove (lambda (x) (eqv? x atom))]
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2017-11-17T01:47:36Z aeth: Is there a standard Scheme notation for optional variables?
2017-11-17T01:47:45Z aeth: *optional parameters
2017-11-17T01:49:21Z aeth: I can do something like "define (+ . numbers)" or "define (- z . more-numbers)" and that . is the equivalent of &rest in CL, but what about &optional?
2017-11-17T01:49:39Z aeth: A lot of r7rs has optional
2017-11-17T01:49:56Z aeth: e.g. (log z &optional base) if I were to use a CLism
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2017-11-17T02:16:13Z takitus: aeth: SRFI-89? https://srfi.schemers.org/srfi-89
2017-11-17T02:16:25Z takitus: aeth: That's sort of how Guile does it.
2017-11-17T02:18:40Z takitus: aeth: But the R7RS way would clearly be to use case-lambda
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2017-11-17T02:28:23Z Ober: does r7rs come close to producing portable code on the level of clhs?
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2017-11-17T02:36:28Z aeth: Ober: not r7rs-small
2017-11-17T02:52:26Z aeth: e.g. only two vector types, nothing generic over sequences (is this desirable in Scheme?), no objects besides very basic records, no hash tables, very little interfacing with the outside world, etc.
2017-11-17T02:53:16Z aeth: I mean, I guess technically you can do everything with lambdas and that's the point of Scheme... but not as efficiently as built-in things that aren't included in r7rs
2017-11-17T02:54:17Z aeth: CL also has a lot of de facto standards beyond the CLHS like gray-streams (portable via trivial-gray-streams), threads (portable via bordeaux-threads), the meta-object-protocol (portable via closer-mop), a bunch of random file/OS stuff (portable(ish) via UIOP), etc.
2017-11-17T02:55:05Z aeth: r7rs-small *is* ahead in a few areas, though, like IEEE floating point (CL does not have a portable NaN or inf+ or inf-) or unicode (more portable than CL, afaik)
2017-11-17T02:59:07Z aeth: (gray-streams is user-definable streams via CLOS)
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2017-11-17T17:56:42Z DGASAU: jcowan: I find your opinion on "eq" rather strange. Getting rid of such construct isn't reasonable.
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2017-11-17T17:58:24Z DGASAU: jcowan: had Scheme had some exception handling, it would be sensible to require "eq" raise exceptions when it is used to compare two non-atoms, but Scheme hasn't acquired anything of the kind useful till very recently.
2017-11-17T17:59:10Z DGASAU: jcowan: as a consequence, its behaviour is similar to "undefined' as we know from one horrible popular language.
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2017-11-17T18:11:26Z jcowan: Ober: R7RS-small isn't meant to be the size of CLHS.  R7RS-large is, with some exceptions that I have set by fiat to avoid going down ratholes.
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2017-11-17T19:29:11Z Ober: jcowan: thanks
2017-11-17T19:29:36Z jcowan: Indeed, there are many things in the R7RS-large roadmap that are not in CLHS
2017-11-17T19:32:45Z jcowan: DGASAU: Historically eq was only meant to work on atoms, but that hasn't been true for some time
2017-11-17T19:32:59Z DGASAU: jcowan: yes, I know.
2017-11-17T19:33:00Z jcowan: nowadays eqv is true iff its arguments are the same object under mutation
2017-11-17T19:33:18Z DGASAU: "Object identity."
2017-11-17T19:33:24Z jcowan: My point about eq is that there is very little reason to use it instead of eqv?/eql
2017-11-17T19:33:45Z jcowan: it may save a little time at the expense of some undefined behavior
2017-11-17T19:34:07Z DGASAU: We have a number of languages that do that.
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2017-11-17T22:02:01Z aeth: You know you're r7rsing too much when you accidentally have two copies of r7rs.pdf open.
2017-11-17T22:02:43Z jcowan chuckles
2017-11-17T22:02:52Z jcowan: Sometimes I have five copies in my download directory
2017-11-17T22:03:48Z aeth: Hmm... I should checksum all the copies of r7rs.pdf I have to see if they're the same file.
2017-11-17T22:04:02Z aeth: Would require comparing the file on several devices, though
2017-11-17T22:04:25Z aeth: It would also be hard to checksum my printed copy
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2017-11-17T22:13:06Z jcowan: aeth: looking at the date should suffice
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2017-11-17T23:11:45Z gwatt: aeth: just scan your print copy and checksum that!
2017-11-17T23:13:11Z aeth: gwatt: oh no, it fails the checksum, thanks, now I have to burn it
2017-11-17T23:16:10Z gwatt: probably for the best
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2017-11-20T12:19:18Z ecraven: hm.. should the body of an http request be a string or a bytevector?
2017-11-20T12:21:11Z ecraven: or either, just converting the string to a bytevector with string->utf8?
2017-11-20T12:29:12Z ecraven: wow, this distinction between textual and binary ports sure does make things a lot more complex :-/
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2017-11-20T13:04:07Z gwatt: it should probably be a bytevector.
2017-11-20T13:04:29Z gwatt: as part of the MIME fun bodies can specify what their encoding is
2017-11-20T13:05:10Z gwatt: but your either option makes sense
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2017-11-20T20:19:46Z sepisoad_: is there a way to get information about a procedure inside repl
2017-11-20T20:19:46Z sepisoad_: like to see what are the input parameter/types of a procedure?
2017-11-20T20:19:46Z sepisoad_: for example something like this: (help cons)
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2017-11-20T20:26:10Z ecraven: sepisoad_: depends on your scheme implementation
2017-11-20T20:26:21Z ecraven: nothing portable (unless you use geiser or the upcoming SLIME)
2017-11-20T20:29:45Z sepisoad_: ecraven, ok, I want to achieve this in gerbil scheme, but ATM the irc channel related to gerbil is almost empty and there seems to be no one to answer my question
2017-11-20T20:30:30Z sepisoad_: i'm also not a proficient at scheme, maybe a hint can help me find my way
2017-11-20T20:32:05Z sepisoad_: what mostly struck me is the lack of documentation, but scheme/lisp code is data so this kind of information are supposed to be easy to get, right?
2017-11-20T20:37:27Z pjb: sepisoad_: no. It only makes it easier for an implementation (and IDE), to implement those features.
2017-11-20T20:38:28Z pjb: sepisoad_: note that even CL which specifies operators such as DOCUMENTATION, DESCRIBE, APROPOS, etc, underspecifies them so that implementations are free to be not helpful.
2017-11-20T20:38:49Z pjb: eg. an implementation may throw away the docstrings, so that DOCUMENTATION may return always NIL.
2017-11-20T20:39:27Z pjb: sepisoad_: in a way, once your code is compiled and run in an engine, or on a space sonde, there's little point in keeping the documentation arround, is it?
2017-11-20T20:40:18Z pjb: (unless you expect an engineer to perform maintainance in 100 years, when all other source of documentation (and sources) are lost, or ET to catch your sonde and patch it?) (which is something that *I* would expect, but not commercial operations).
2017-11-20T20:40:23Z sepisoad_: ok, seems fair
2017-11-20T20:41:40Z pjb: sepisoad_: basically, it's so easy to implement a repl (let loop (display (eval (read) (interactive-environment))) (newline) (loop)), that you can easy do that, and extend it to implement all the nice IDe features you want.  Also, you may start with edlin from mit-scheme.
2017-11-20T20:41:42Z sepisoad_: what i clearly am looking for is for example type in some function name and pass it to another magic function and see what parameters it accepts
2017-11-20T20:41:49Z pjb: (or even Racket, which is also free software).
2017-11-20T20:41:49Z sepisoad_: no more explanation
2017-11-20T20:42:06Z pjb: Yes, including that.
2017-11-20T20:42:27Z pjb: For example, your repl could interpret the define forms to keep the source arround. See for example ibcl.
2017-11-20T20:42:38Z pjb: http://www.informatimago.com/develop/lisp/com/informatimago/small-cl-pgms/ibcl/index.html
2017-11-20T20:42:44Z pjb: You can do something similar in scheme.
2017-11-20T20:43:21Z pjb: Or you can find an implementation that already provides such operators.
2017-11-20T20:44:29Z pjb: Racket probably has such sophisticated features, at least in a GUI form.
2017-11-20T20:45:28Z sepisoad_: i have used racket before and it was nice, but the speed was an issue
2017-11-20T20:45:42Z pjb: Some IDE provide a superset of the feature, such as jumping to the source.  Eg. in slime (CL), you move the cursor on a symbol, type M-. and it jumps to the defining form, where you can see everything, lambda-lists, docstrings, body.
2017-11-20T20:46:05Z pjb: Speed of use, or speed of execution of your code?
2017-11-20T20:46:36Z pjb: You can use multiple implementation, one for development (where you have those nice features, a nice debugger, etc), and another to compile the production code into a fast executable.
2017-11-20T20:47:04Z sepisoad_: speed of execution
2017-11-20T20:47:07Z pjb: Of course, then you have to be careful to write portable code (standard code), and to use common libraries.
2017-11-20T20:47:21Z pjb: Yes, in that case I would definitely advise using two different implementations.
2017-11-20T20:47:30Z sepisoad_: what are those?
2017-11-20T20:47:36Z pjb: of your own choice.
2017-11-20T20:48:02Z pjb: eg. Racket and another that has a good compiler.
2017-11-20T20:48:24Z pjb: In CL, I tend to use clisp or ccl for development, but sometimes I have to use sbcl or ecl for production code.
2017-11-20T20:49:13Z sepisoad_: wna
2017-11-20T20:49:15Z sepisoad_: wba
2017-11-20T20:49:30Z sepisoad_: what about clojure
2017-11-20T20:49:57Z wasamasa: it may be surprising, but even clojure isn't good at everything
2017-11-20T20:50:34Z sepisoad_: can you elaborate on that?
2017-11-20T20:50:53Z wasamasa: that's just a specific example of "There is no silver bullet"
2017-11-20T20:51:44Z pjb: For me, it's a typical NIH syndrome.
2017-11-20T20:51:54Z pjb: Just like Ruby and Python.
2017-11-20T20:52:51Z wasamasa: I find it hilarious that the CL fans don't like it much, considering that unlike many languages tightly bound to another language runtime it has been designed by a CL user
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2017-11-20T21:01:23Z aeth: wasamasa: CL isn't one language, though. It's three or more languages glued together by committee, allowing *very* different kinds of CL users to all be CL users.
2017-11-20T21:02:13Z aeth: And it's flexible enough to not be hard to add completely new styles, like this style that for some reason exists. https://github.com/cosmos72/cl-parametric-types
2017-11-20T21:05:03Z aeth: The only Lisp that can permit more radically different styles in one "language" is probably Racket, with its language system.
2017-11-20T21:05:44Z aeth: (And also take into account that the CL users who liked Clojure probably switched to Clojure many years ago.)
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2017-11-20T21:09:55Z jcowan_: aeth: What three languages?
2017-11-20T21:10:17Z aeth: jcowan_: that's arguable. Historical Lisp, Scheme, and CLOS maybe?
2017-11-20T21:10:20Z hooman: o_o CLOS is one ?
2017-11-20T21:10:34Z aeth: hooman: you can do just about everything through CLOS, or you could pretty much never touch CLOS
2017-11-20T21:10:38Z hooman: is elisp Historical ? =)
2017-11-20T21:10:40Z aeth: So it's the most bolted on
2017-11-20T21:10:48Z jcowan_ nods
2017-11-20T21:10:49Z aeth: elisp is historical, but it has added a lot of CL features since then
2017-11-20T21:11:19Z hooman: mhm. i was looking at Guile yesterday. i can feel the three categories quite readily and/or discretely
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2017-11-20T21:11:50Z aeth: an alternative division of three: OOP, higher order functions, and macros.
2017-11-20T21:12:01Z aeth: Three ways to abstract that can often do the equivalent thing
2017-11-20T21:13:20Z aeth: e.g. for lists, dolist (or do; or loop in CL) vs. map (mapcar) vs. the OOP way that doesn't exist natively in CL (iterators or something?)
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2017-11-20T21:15:00Z jcowan_: External iterators.  Lisps have internal iterators, and in Scheme it's easy to transform one into the other with call/cc.
2017-11-20T21:15:30Z jcowan_: "Objects are just poor man's closures, but then closures are just poor man's objects, too."
2017-11-20T21:16:02Z aeth: and both are just the poor way to do something that could be done with a sufficiently smart macro that does everything at compile time. :-p
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2017-11-20T21:20:40Z hooman: hmm
2017-11-20T21:27:10Z aeth: (The super-macro uses let.)
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2017-11-21T08:46:57Z mistnim: hi, why (cdr '(1 (2 3))) returns ((2 3)) and not (2 3)?
2017-11-21T08:49:11Z ecraven: mistnim: (car '(1 2 3)) is 1, (cdr '(1 2 3)) is '(2 3)
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2017-11-21T08:53:25Z mistnim: thanks ecraven
2017-11-21T08:55:33Z ecraven: so the cdr is the rest of the list (as a list)
2017-11-21T08:55:51Z ecraven: and the rest of the list (1 (2 3)) is ((2 3))
2017-11-21T08:56:01Z ecraven: if you want (2 3), you need cadr ;) (car (cdr ...))
2017-11-21T08:56:12Z ecraven: or (second '(1 (2 3)))
2017-11-21T08:59:15Z civodul: but really, you should use a pattern matcher, which is less error-prone and IMO more readable
2017-11-21T08:59:51Z civodul: like https://www.gnu.org/software/guile/manual/html_node/Pattern-Matching.html
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2017-11-21T09:01:12Z ecraven: civodul: would be good to have a cross-implementation "standard" for pattern matching :-/
2017-11-21T09:01:39Z ecraven: there's no srfi, it seems
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2017-11-21T09:02:13Z civodul: yeah
2017-11-21T09:02:34Z civodul: though Shinn's pattern matcher is portable, i think
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2017-11-21T16:46:59Z jcowan__: ecraven: There will be a pattern-matching SRFI at some point, probably based on foof's code
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2017-11-21T16:55:21Z gwatt: I'm partial to http://www.cs.indiana.edu/chezscheme/match/ myself
2017-11-21T16:55:59Z gwatt: but that's geared towards IU's compiler course.
2017-11-21T16:57:54Z jcowan__: Okay, I'll compare that with the Wise design (which accounts for Chicken, Racket, Bigloo, Chibi, SML, Scala, and Andrew Wright's original stuff).
2017-11-21T16:58:48Z gwatt: Wase
2017-11-21T16:58:53Z gwatt: Wise*?
2017-11-21T16:58:57Z gwatt: like David Wise?
2017-11-21T16:59:55Z jcowan__: Jim Wise
2017-11-21T17:00:30Z jcowan__: https://bitbucket.org/cowan/r7rs-wg1-infra/src/default/MatchingWise.md
2017-11-21T17:09:16Z gwatt: ah, David Wise was an IU professor who also liked scheme
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2017-11-21T17:22:48Z gwatt: jcowan__: so what happend to arcfide's r7rs site? Did he decide to no longer be inolved in that?
2017-11-21T17:23:21Z jcowan__: It was running in a non-docker container that's not supported anywhere
2017-11-21T17:24:06Z gwatt: ah, the entire thing? even the storage?
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2017-11-21T18:10:54Z jim: who dat?
2017-11-21T18:14:31Z gwatt: jim: who is who?
2017-11-21T18:15:14Z jim: exactly!
2017-11-21T18:15:29Z jim: seriously, who;s jim wise?
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2017-11-21T19:10:39Z jcowan__: gwatt: Well, I salvaged what I could to make the current bitbucket archive, but the history is lost
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2017-11-21T19:33:18Z gwatt: that sucks
2017-11-21T19:33:43Z gwatt: jcowan__: have you looked at the wayback machine?
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2017-11-21T19:39:28Z jcowan__: gwatt: No, but the main reason to have history in a wiki is to revert errors or vandalism.  I'm unlikely to go back to earlier versions of proposals, and when it comes to ballots, it's the final version that counts.
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2017-11-21T19:39:58Z gwatt: oh, I misunderstood what you meant by history
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2017-11-21T20:31:19Z C-Keen: Kooda: look at this, something like that with matrix would be awesome! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=33kXsOiP6wA check the last chapters (13,14,15)
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2017-11-21T20:57:11Z C-Keen: oops right person wrong channel, was meant for #chicken
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2017-11-21T21:32:50Z DeeEff: C-Keen: what is this? Scheme integration via Discord?
2017-11-21T21:36:28Z C-Keen: smalltalk
2017-11-21T21:37:05Z C-Keen: posting serialized code by the click of a button from one system into the channel, get the same thing into a playground on another system by the click of another button
2017-11-21T21:37:17Z C-Keen: including screenshots of widgets and output
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2017-11-21T21:59:55Z Kooda: C-Keen: I’ve not watched this, but I will make a shared coding-playground for CHICKEN at some point.
2017-11-21T22:00:43Z ecraven: ah, fond memories of Seaside (the smalltalk web framework)
2017-11-21T22:00:47Z Kooda: Because I do game jams with far away people, and that would help.
2017-11-21T22:05:37Z C-Keen: yeah that would be a use case
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2017-11-22T20:47:46Z dpk: why does https://srfi.schemers.org/srfi-159/srfi-159.html define its own parameter system instead of just depending on SRFI 39?
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2017-11-22T22:18:01Z wasamasa: you go and tell him
2017-11-22T22:18:06Z wasamasa: it's still in draft status
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2017-11-22T23:39:01Z turtleman: Does anyone here use Kawa scheme? I am having trouble with Swing.
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2017-11-23T06:44:15Z waveprop: what's the deal with recursion
2017-11-23T06:44:29Z waveprop: why is it a big deal
2017-11-23T06:46:39Z wasamasa: it's the fundamental way of doing iteration
2017-11-23T06:46:57Z waveprop: it replaced other iterator constructs, right?
2017-11-23T06:47:07Z waveprop: *replaces
2017-11-23T06:47:16Z wasamasa: well, not quite, scheme still has do
2017-11-23T06:47:22Z waveprop: okay
2017-11-23T06:47:53Z waveprop: dow does tail recursion differ from recursion in general
2017-11-23T06:48:06Z wasamasa: if you for example look at grammars in computer science, the most basic ones express repetition in terms of recursion :>
2017-11-23T06:48:47Z wasamasa: SSI is accidentally turing-complete because while it doesn't have looping constructs, it allows for recursion
2017-11-23T06:49:14Z waveprop: woah thats cool
2017-11-23T06:49:30Z wasamasa: tail recursion is a special case where the recursion happens in the returning part of your code
2017-11-23T06:49:43Z waveprop: can you recommend a text that covers grammars
2017-11-23T06:50:10Z waveprop: i mean a general CS text
2017-11-23T06:50:13Z wasamasa: this allows tail-call optimization that replaces the recursion with an iterative construct, such as a trampoline (in interpreters) or a goto (in compilers)
2017-11-23T06:51:51Z waveprop: i am just a hacker, i need to read some textbooks on computation to gain a deeper understanding of these concepts. i have elements of the theory of computation by lewes and papadimitriou, and introduction to automata theory, languages, and computation by hopcroft and ullman
2017-11-23T06:51:52Z wasamasa: I dunno, I just read blog posts, wikipedia and the occasional book until I got it
2017-11-23T06:52:08Z waveprop: wasamasa: okay, sounds good. thank you for explaining :)
2017-11-23T06:52:28Z wasamasa: then after I implemented a recursive-descent parser things clicked
2017-11-23T06:52:47Z waveprop: wasamasa: did you use a scheme to do that
2017-11-23T06:52:51Z waveprop: if so which one
2017-11-23T06:52:55Z wasamasa: no, elisp :P
2017-11-23T06:53:02Z waveprop: okay cool
2017-11-23T06:53:03Z waveprop: :)
2017-11-23T06:53:03Z wasamasa: but I later did a similar thing in kawa scheme
2017-11-23T06:53:07Z wasamasa: and then SML
2017-11-23T06:53:16Z wasamasa: it doesn't really matter what language you use
2017-11-23T06:53:32Z wasamasa: as long as it supports recursion and lists, you'll be fine
2017-11-23T06:53:35Z waveprop: as long as it's functional / ML family?
2017-11-23T06:53:38Z waveprop: oh cool
2017-11-23T06:53:56Z wasamasa: gcc and clang do this just fine with C++
2017-11-23T06:54:03Z waveprop: no way! cool
2017-11-23T06:54:22Z takitus: waveprop: Have you read SICP?
2017-11-23T06:54:38Z wasamasa: anyway, now I can go back to more theory and learn just how exactly LL(1) is different from the other grammars
2017-11-23T06:54:52Z waveprop: takitus: i havent yet but when i get a second it's next on my list
2017-11-23T06:55:13Z takitus: waveprop: It's awesome and covers recursion in depth.
2017-11-23T06:55:17Z waveprop: wasamasa: nice. i'm going to look into grammars now, thanks
2017-11-23T06:55:49Z wasamasa: if you want an alternative to the dragon book, Compiler Design in C is more approachable
2017-11-23T06:55:53Z waveprop: takitus: i know that i need to start there, with SICP. when i finish that one will i be ready for LYAH?
2017-11-23T06:56:12Z takitus: waveprop: Learn You a Haskell?
2017-11-23T06:56:53Z waveprop: wasamasa: okay, i'll look at that one also. i read that you need a solid grasp of mathematics to do SICP and i have no math beyond algebra yet
2017-11-23T06:56:56Z waveprop: takitus: yes
2017-11-23T06:57:34Z takitus: waveprop: It's more of a tutorial than SICP. I'd certainly call it easier.
2017-11-23T06:58:10Z takitus: waveprop: Bird & Wadler's Intro to Functional Programming (both editions) is a nice next step after SICP, imho.
2017-11-23T06:58:23Z wasamasa: waveprop: well, if you're not scared of looking up integral values you should be fine
2017-11-23T06:58:58Z waveprop: wasamasa: forgive my ignorance, isnt that part of calculus
2017-11-23T06:59:02Z wasamasa: waveprop: it is
2017-11-23T06:59:20Z waveprop: takitus: i'll get bird and wadler. is haskell considered a lisp
2017-11-23T06:59:39Z takitus: waveprop: Heh. Don't repeat that one in #haskell :)
2017-11-23T06:59:47Z wasamasa: #haskell is pretty chill
2017-11-23T07:00:07Z waveprop: wasamasa: okay. so i should learn about integral values before SICP
2017-11-23T07:00:11Z takitus: wasamasa: True, it's a friendly place.
2017-11-23T07:00:28Z wasamasa: waveprop: the only thing you need to do is not freak out when they mention them
2017-11-23T07:01:02Z wasamasa: waveprop: it's just a sum of values
2017-11-23T07:01:06Z waveprop: wasamasa: okay np then, i've been learning from text books for years by reading things i dont quite grasp yet and eventually things fit into place
2017-11-23T07:01:29Z wasamasa: waveprop: the only thing you'll not be able to do is making one or two proofs, but that doesn't really matter
2017-11-23T07:02:25Z takitus: waveprop: Don't worry about it. Some of the exercises in SICP are very open-ended. One includes the note "A general answer to this exercise is probably worth a Ph.D."
2017-11-23T07:02:27Z waveprop: i know that haskell is unique, but isnt descended from lisp or does it just share a common ancestor such as ML
2017-11-23T07:02:41Z waveprop: takitus: hahahah okay
2017-11-23T07:03:13Z takitus: waveprop: Haskell and the Lisps are both descended from Church's lambda calculus, so they definitely share an ancestor.
2017-11-23T07:03:37Z wasamasa: it's just that lisp came from the untyped version and ML from the typed one
2017-11-23T07:03:48Z waveprop: takitus: oh, i see now
2017-11-23T07:03:56Z waveprop: wasamasa: thanks
2017-11-23T07:04:24Z wasamasa: if you want to screw around with people, https://camlp5.github.io/doc/htmlc/scheme.html is a thing
2017-11-23T07:04:31Z waveprop: if i spend some time with racket, in order to grok functional paradigm, is there still much to be learned from haskell?
2017-11-23T07:04:40Z wasamasa: of course
2017-11-23T07:05:35Z wasamasa: functional programming spans lots of features, pattern matching and polymorphic types are a ML specialty
2017-11-23T07:05:55Z wasamasa: before trying out SML I mistakenly assumed that static typing means to declare every type
2017-11-23T07:06:14Z waveprop: rad. i mean, every new language changes how you think. but i suppose i'm after the legendary paradigm shift that is espoused learning lisp / fp
2017-11-23T07:06:32Z waveprop: oh, it doesnt mean that?
2017-11-23T07:06:44Z takitus: waveprop: Haskell's type system is an eye-opener indeed, if you're used to the C/C++/Java/etc. idea of typing.
2017-11-23T07:07:15Z wasamasa: waveprop: the compilers can infer type signatures, but also require that they're unified into something compatible, so they'll refuse compiling code that doesn't fit
2017-11-23T07:07:45Z wasamasa: waveprop: sometimes you need to declare types, like for new data types or to make clear your function works on something more specialized
2017-11-23T07:08:20Z wasamasa: waveprop: haskell adds lazy evaluation and tons of features people came up with, such as monads
2017-11-23T07:09:23Z takitus: Yeah, Haskell is a big language coming from Scheme.
2017-11-23T07:09:45Z wasamasa: the reason I went for SML is because it feels like the ancestor to ocaml, haskell, scala and F#
2017-11-23T07:09:52Z waveprop: haskell sounds so cool. i think i'll learn racket first and then explore haskell in a while. yes i've been reading abouth the lambda calculus and monads
2017-11-23T07:10:10Z takitus: wasamasa: I'm not familiar with SML, but will look it up. Thanks.
2017-11-23T07:10:16Z waveprop: wasamasa: it that static meta language? i'm not familiar with SML
2017-11-23T07:10:28Z wasamasa: no, the standard meta language
2017-11-23T07:10:33Z waveprop: okay
2017-11-23T07:10:48Z wasamasa: they made a standard that covers just enough so that you can write compilers with it
2017-11-23T07:12:35Z takitus: wasamasa: I know I should just look it up, but is it lazy?
2017-11-23T07:12:43Z wasamasa: no, it's eagerly evaluated
2017-11-23T07:12:52Z takitus: Ah, ok.
2017-11-23T07:12:57Z waveprop: SML looks very interesting. there are so many FP languages
2017-11-23T07:13:21Z wasamasa: haskell is the odd one there :P
2017-11-23T07:14:09Z wasamasa: takitus: you may find https://github.com/wasamasa/mal-candidates/blob/master/sml/notes.md interesting
2017-11-23T07:14:51Z waveprop: what a time to be alive
2017-11-23T07:15:02Z waveprop: and not watching tv hehe
2017-11-23T07:15:50Z takitus: wasamasa: Interesting.
2017-11-23T07:16:23Z takitus: wasamasa: I see SML too has the paren ambiguity. Not my favorite piece of traditional FP syntax.
2017-11-23T07:16:31Z wasamasa: yeah ._.
2017-11-23T07:17:00Z wasamasa: hence why I looked into whether you can do one with lispy syntax and found ocamlp5
2017-11-23T07:20:31Z wasamasa: so, as my last recommendation today, the repo linked is me experimenting with languages suitable for https://github.com/kanaka/mal
2017-11-23T07:21:14Z wasamasa: it's a guide on implementing a minimalistic lisp interpreter in any programming language and will help you understanding the finer details
2017-11-23T07:21:24Z waveprop: thank you sirs
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2017-11-23T07:21:36Z takitus: waveprop: good luck!
2017-11-23T07:21:44Z takitus: wasamasa: So I see.
2017-11-23T07:21:58Z wasamasa: it's clojure rather than scheme, but covers enough to allow for self-hosting and has TCO
2017-11-23T07:22:22Z wasamasa: the most complex thing written in it is a compiler for MAL to LLVM
2017-11-23T07:23:25Z takitus: MAL being the minimal Clojure target language?
2017-11-23T07:24:31Z wasamasa: yeah
2017-11-23T07:24:32Z takitus: Sorry, not target language. Blech.
2017-11-23T07:24:41Z wasamasa: source language rather
2017-11-23T07:24:56Z takitus: Right, that thing :)
2017-11-23T07:25:00Z takitus: Cool stuff.
2017-11-23T07:35:10Z takitus: Wow, some masochistic person implemented MAL in bash and vimscript...
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2017-11-23T07:52:22Z wasamasa: the original was implemented in GNU make ;>
2017-11-23T07:52:53Z wasamasa: it has a numbers.mk
2017-11-23T07:53:13Z wasamasa: if you've ever wondered how one would implement their own number type, SICP got you covered
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2017-11-25T16:53:18Z iskander: hello, anyone here is using geiser with Chez Scheme ? i've got a problem with evaluating s-exps in a buffer, geiser says that REPL is not found but the REPL buffer is there
2017-11-25T16:54:17Z iskander: Chicken Scheme works fine with geiser
2017-11-25T16:55:09Z iskander: i think that geiser doesn't use the right buffer name for REPL
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2017-11-25T17:10:54Z gwatt: iskander: what have you tried doing?  I installed geiser from melpa, did "M-x run-geiser", typed "chez" and everything seemed to work fine
2017-11-25T17:11:41Z iskander: i'm on mac and using macports, installed chez & chicken, and using geiser package in my init.el
2017-11-25T17:11:52Z iskander: as i said, chicken repl works but not chez
2017-11-25T17:12:17Z iskander: geiser cannot find the chez repl although it has been crated by geiser
2017-11-25T17:12:35Z iskander: i'm trying to debug geiser :)
2017-11-25T17:12:41Z wasamasa: good luck
2017-11-25T17:14:00Z iskander: funny thing is, if i remove geiser package and use the plain run-scheme with prefix and enter chez, then i can evaluate s-exps in a buffer
2017-11-25T17:15:29Z iskander: maybe i should dispose with geiser
2017-11-25T17:15:29Z gwatt: what is the chez-scheme executable named?
2017-11-25T17:16:12Z iskander: "scheme" and "petite", tried both, repl is being created but evaluation doesn't work
2017-11-25T17:18:21Z ecraven: iskander: there's some way to debug geiser
2017-11-25T17:18:29Z ecraven: I've had it working before, so it works in theory
2017-11-25T17:18:43Z ecraven: there's also #geiser
2017-11-25T17:18:50Z iskander: yeah, i'm trying to get my head around it
2017-11-25T17:19:00Z iskander: already asked in #geiser and #chez
2017-11-25T17:19:13Z iskander: deathly silence
2017-11-25T17:21:51Z ecraven: jao in #geiser is responsive if he's online normally
2017-11-25T17:22:17Z iskander: great, geiser is looking for chicken REPL
2017-11-25T17:22:25Z iskander: and not Chez REPL
2017-11-25T17:22:51Z iskander: i beaked on geiser-repl--connection*
2017-11-25T17:23:12Z wasamasa: chicken, chez, what's the difference
2017-11-25T17:24:42Z iskander: the difference is that one works with geiser and another one not
2017-11-25T17:30:04Z gwatt: again, what is the chez executable named on your computer?
2017-11-25T17:30:22Z gwatt: if it's not what geiser expects, geiser can't find it
2017-11-25T17:31:03Z iskander: the REPL has been started by geiser, i can enter s-exps in Chez REPL in emacs
2017-11-25T17:31:09Z iskander: so, the binary is OK
2017-11-25T17:32:16Z iskander: but evaluating of s-exps in a scheme buffer doesn't work, geiser is complaining about not finding the REPL buffer
2017-11-25T17:33:33Z iskander: i found out that the var geiser-impl--implementation is nil
2017-11-25T17:33:49Z iskander: if i set it to 'chez, then everything works
2017-11-25T17:34:18Z iskander: this variable is used to find out the name of REPL buffer, if i understood it correctly
2017-11-25T17:34:34Z iskander: it's  a buffer var
2017-11-25T17:35:08Z iskander: next step is figuring out why it's nil i guess
2017-11-25T17:36:02Z iskander: hmm, wait, i think i know how to fix it
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2017-11-25T17:44:32Z iskander: yay, it's working
2017-11-25T17:44:33Z iskander: adding chicken to geiser-active-implementations somehow messes up chez
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2017-11-25T17:44:40Z iskander: (setq geiser-active-implementations '(chez)) fixed it
2017-11-25T17:44:52Z iskander: but i wanted to use both, hmm
2017-11-25T17:45:48Z iskander: geiser tried to send s-exps to chicken REPL instead of chez
2017-11-25T17:51:30Z iskander: geiser seems to discriminate chez as soon as i add chicken to geiser-active-implementations
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2017-11-25T17:55:18Z iskander: setting ;; -*- geiser-scheme-implementation: chez -*- in scm file solved the problem finally
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2017-11-25T18:33:39Z ecraven: yea, geiser is a bit strange if multiple schemes have the same file extension registered
2017-11-25T18:34:56Z iskander: i was stupid, entirely my fault, had i read the geiser documentation, i would have fixed sooner
2017-11-25T18:36:21Z iskander: one more question, when i evaluate a s-exp in a scheme buffer, i'm see the output only in minibuffer
2017-11-25T18:36:51Z iskander: but not in REPL
2017-11-25T18:37:35Z iskander: the native run-scheme instead is showing the output in REPL
2017-11-25T18:37:57Z iskander: is it possible to make geiser behave the same way ?
2017-11-25T18:38:39Z iskander: i can't find anything in the docs
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2017-11-25T18:57:36Z iskander: hmm, eval-in-repl looks promising
2017-11-25T19:01:34Z iskander: damn, it opens a new repl every time
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2017-11-26T01:26:13Z teddy_error: http://blog.veitheller.de/Carp.html
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2017-11-26T07:14:23Z wasamasa: looks more like clojure than scheme to me :P
2017-11-26T07:14:36Z wasamasa: also, it's lame that they switched their compiler from C to haskell
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2017-11-26T07:37:50Z takitus: That's quite a change indeed.
2017-11-26T07:38:27Z wasamasa: I guess they grew annoyed that both their language implementation and compiler had memory bugs
2017-11-26T07:39:48Z wasamasa: so they fixed the compiler first
2017-11-26T07:43:15Z takitus: Switching languages to fix bugs is like some ridiculous but witty thing I can't think of right now...
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2017-11-26T07:45:15Z takitus: I imagine the compiler bugs are still there, just buried deeper due to lazy evaluation.
2017-11-26T08:09:35Z waveprop: anyone write their own emacs?
2017-11-26T08:09:42Z waveprop: :))
2017-11-26T08:21:58Z pjb: waveprop: yep.
2017-11-26T08:22:54Z pjb: (define emacs (let loop ((ch (read-char))) ((get-command dispatch-table ch)) (loop (read-char))))
2017-11-26T08:27:25Z takitus: pjb: Is that from something?
2017-11-26T08:31:00Z pjb: directly from my head ;-)
2017-11-26T08:31:28Z pjb: What I'm saying is that an emacs is basically a loop reading one character, and calling a function obtained from a command table.
2017-11-26T08:31:43Z pjb: Then you just need to fill the command table.
2017-11-26T08:32:09Z pjb: waveprop: also, have a look at edwin in mit-scheme.
2017-11-26T08:32:40Z pjb: (and there are tens of emacs clones around).
2017-11-26T08:34:59Z takitus: pjb: Oh, I got it. Just wondering.
2017-11-26T08:35:27Z wasamasa: the most modern emacs clone is known as atom
2017-11-26T08:40:03Z takitus: Except it's not programmable, apparently?
2017-11-26T08:40:25Z pjb: It is: just update dispatch-time at run-time.
2017-11-26T08:41:00Z pjb: (define bind-key (lambda (ch cmd) (set-command! dispatch-table ch cmd)))
2017-11-26T08:41:00Z wasamasa: takitus: sure it is
2017-11-26T08:41:18Z wasamasa: takitus: you get a debugging console if you hit the right keys
2017-11-26T08:42:15Z ecraven: anyone here using exwm? I've switched yesterday, an amazing experience ;)
2017-11-26T08:42:27Z takitus: Ah, OK. It looks like ridiculous GUI overkill, but at least it's got that, then.
2017-11-26T08:43:01Z wasamasa: people wrote extensions for it, the most ludicrous being an asteroids clone where you shoot away pieces of your UI
2017-11-26T08:43:47Z wasamasa: compare with emacs where the UI is the least flexible part of it
2017-11-26T08:45:09Z wasamasa: maybe https://atom.io/packages/activate-power-mode is even better: https://atom.io/packages/activate-power-mode
2017-11-26T08:45:11Z wasamasa: err
2017-11-26T08:46:21Z takitus: Yup. That's what I want to do with my 30,000 line node.js GUI xD
2017-11-26T08:47:19Z plll[m]: ecraven: Nice! I've been meaning to check it out. Have you noticed any bugs, or has it been smooth so far?
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2017-11-26T08:49:11Z wasamasa: takitus: xdisplay.c is in the same ballpark and that's not all files making up the emacs UI
2017-11-26T08:49:50Z takitus: wasamasa: Yeah, everyone knows emacs is super bloated.
2017-11-26T08:50:55Z takitus: wasamasa: I'm sure the Atom GUI code is more than 30k lines, that was just rhetoric.
2017-11-26T08:51:44Z takitus: wasamasa: But seriously, a Java/CoffeScript editor with node.js plugins sounds horrific.
2017-11-26T08:54:28Z wasamasa shrugs
2017-11-26T08:55:10Z wasamasa: people have come to like the browser as widely deployed platform and to iron out cross-browser differences, they've come to deploy chrome with their application
2017-11-26T08:55:36Z wasamasa: javascript has roughly the expressive power of elisp, but unlike elisp it continues improving
2017-11-26T08:56:40Z wasamasa: I don't get why github uses coffeescript though
2017-11-26T08:59:19Z takitus: JS seems extremely flabby compared to most lisps, but I guess expressivity is in the eye of the beholder.
2017-11-26T08:59:31Z takitus: Coffescript is just mind-boggling.
2017-11-26T08:59:38Z wasamasa: you should take a look at ES6 :>
2017-11-26T09:00:02Z wasamasa: it fixes most of my complaints with JS, leaving the loose typing bit
2017-11-26T09:00:18Z wasamasa: or rather, weak
2017-11-26T09:04:06Z takitus: "ES 6: Block-scoped variables!". I haven't done JS in years, did it really lack lexical scoping until now??
2017-11-26T09:04:38Z wasamasa: it had function-level scoping
2017-11-26T09:05:37Z takitus: Wow
2017-11-26T09:06:05Z wasamasa: for example, one common thing to do in JS is to have a loop from which you create anonymous functions referencing a loop variable
2017-11-26T09:06:16Z wasamasa: if you did that in regular javascript, all functions would reference the same value
2017-11-26T09:06:26Z wasamasa: with proper lexical scoping it would behave as expected
2017-11-26T09:06:31Z takitus: Right
2017-11-26T09:06:43Z wasamasa: the workaround is using a variant of the loop that expects a function instead of a loop body
2017-11-26T09:06:45Z waveprop: thanks pjb :) i'll look at edwin
2017-11-26T09:07:43Z takitus: Such a crummy language.
2017-11-26T09:08:27Z wasamasa: or using es6
2017-11-26T09:09:24Z takitus: Yeah, ES 6 looks tolerable.
2017-11-26T09:09:42Z wasamasa: so, with that fixed you'll run into the far worse problem of the language ecosystem
2017-11-26T09:11:58Z takitus: You mean the DOM and HTML5 specs?
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2017-11-26T09:13:11Z takitus: Or the whole general Gordian knot that is the Web these days?
2017-11-26T09:13:18Z wasamasa: well, web APIs suck, but I mean the phenomenon of people writing tons of small npm packages
2017-11-26T09:13:36Z wasamasa: so whatever you're hacking on, you'll find at least a dozen solutions, none of which are ideal
2017-11-26T09:14:08Z takitus: Right.
2017-11-26T09:14:58Z takitus: Well, it's probably the most popular language on the planet ATM, so JavaScript hackers re-invent at least 1,000 wheels per day. :)
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2017-11-26T09:15:10Z wasamasa: https://threepanel.com/t/cube-drone/18/70
2017-11-26T09:15:48Z mistnim: hi, what does the point represents? '("a" . "b")?
2017-11-26T09:16:05Z wasamasa: "Where I am from, the point of digging is not freedom from digging."
2017-11-26T09:16:06Z pjb: (list 'quote (cons "a" "b")) #| --> '("a" . "b") |#
2017-11-26T09:16:14Z pjb: (list 'quote (list "a" "b")) #| --> '("a" "b") |#
2017-11-26T09:16:16Z wasamasa: mistnim: do you know what a cons cell is?
2017-11-26T09:16:21Z pjb: mistnim: what do you think?
2017-11-26T09:16:36Z pjb: mistnim: also, r5rs is fewer than 50 pages!
2017-11-26T09:17:34Z mistnim: got it thanks wasamasa pjb
2017-11-26T09:18:06Z wasamasa: mistnim: . is syntactic sugar for them and a way of representing them
2017-11-26T09:18:30Z mistnim: I'm learning scheme from htdp and that just appeared all of a sudden while experimenting in the repl
2017-11-26T09:19:14Z wasamasa: you'll eventually learn that there isn't a list type, it's just a convenient way of thinking about linked cons cells terminated by a nil value
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2017-11-26T09:25:57Z mistnim: and what the heck is going on here '(1 . 2 . 3) -> '(2 1 3)
2017-11-26T09:26:28Z wasamasa: that's just racket being weird
2017-11-26T09:26:59Z mistnim: oh right, guile makes an error
2017-11-26T09:26:59Z wasamasa: they found that '(1 . 2 . 3) is invalid syntax, so they repurposed it for infix syntax
2017-11-26T09:27:26Z wasamasa: guess what (1 . + . 1) does in racket
2017-11-26T09:27:46Z mistnim: 2?
2017-11-26T09:27:50Z wasamasa: indeed
2017-11-26T09:28:06Z mistnim: weird
2017-11-26T09:28:19Z wasamasa: it might be surprising, but racket has evolved well and beyond scheme
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2017-11-26T11:40:17Z ecraven: plll[m]: mostly smooth, I've noticed problems with gimp dialogues, but they should be easily fixable
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2017-11-27T18:23:26Z yurinew: hi, this is probably considered a very basic question, but how can i store a function within an object that another function returns, such that i can call the function within the object?
2017-11-27T18:24:15Z wasamasa: object?
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2017-11-27T18:25:05Z ecraven: yurinew: just store it. (define x (cons 1 2)) (set-car! x (lambda (y) (+ y 1))) ((car x) 3)  ->  4
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2017-11-27T18:25:23Z wasamasa: this isn't JS
2017-11-27T18:25:49Z yurinew: i realize it's an odd choice of words given that this is functional, but that's the terminology that my professor has been using wasamasa
2017-11-27T18:26:00Z ecraven: yurinew: how do you create "objects"?
2017-11-27T18:26:01Z wasamasa: ah, homework questions
2017-11-27T18:26:31Z yurinew: i'm not asking a homework question, i'm asking how i can learn the concepts needed for my course work
2017-11-27T18:26:41Z yurinew: otherwise i'd just ask the homework question
2017-11-27T18:27:23Z wasamasa: it's odd because scheme got records only relatively recently in its standard
2017-11-27T18:27:41Z wasamasa: the preferred data structure is still the list
2017-11-27T18:28:06Z wasamasa: some people fake objects with vectors
2017-11-27T18:28:13Z wasamasa: others use closures
2017-11-27T18:28:43Z wasamasa: and then there are the specialists who use their implementation's support for manipulating symbol properties...
2017-11-27T18:29:09Z yurinew: i think i would generally just be using a list for this kind of thing, but generally where my confusion is, is i'm calling a function which returns an object which i can then use to call further functions that reference the data initially included in the call to the bottom-most function
2017-11-27T18:30:06Z wasamasa: would it kill you to give a code example?
2017-11-27T18:30:34Z yurinew: wasamasa no, it wouldn't kill me...why is it necessary to ask like that? i've been plenty polite
2017-11-27T18:30:46Z gwatt: yurinew: it sounds like you want a closure.
2017-11-27T18:31:06Z yurinew: okay, i'll take a look into what that means gwatt, thanks
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2017-11-27T18:31:35Z gwatt: yurinew: a closure is a function that uses data not defined in itself or passed in the arguments list
2017-11-27T18:31:52Z yurinew: that sounds like what i'm looking for
2017-11-27T18:32:00Z gwatt: e.g.: (lambda (x y) (lambda (z) (+ x y z))
2017-11-27T18:32:24Z gwatt: (lambda (z) ...) there is a function returned from (lambda (x y) ...) that can access x and y
2017-11-27T18:33:07Z yurinew: thanks gwatt, i have another question regarding that, but i'll code up something which i can use to ask more clearly and concisely
2017-11-27T18:33:11Z gwatt: ok
2017-11-27T18:38:33Z yurinew: alright before i do that - what if i want to make a function that stores multiple values, which has functions within which allow me to call specific values from those?
2017-11-27T18:38:50Z yurinew: so for example, i realize this code is broken and incorrect, but i hope it gets my point across: https://pastebin.com/1qxsUZd2
2017-11-27T18:39:07Z yurinew: sorry for what may be very elementary questions, i'm entirely new to learning scheme
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2017-11-27T18:44:37Z gwatt: So scheme doesn't have objects in the sense of java, javascript, c++, etc. It sounds like you're trying to write code with that approach, which is not something scheme really supports
2017-11-27T18:46:35Z gwatt: If what you want is a way to group data together, you should take a look at the record system.
2017-11-27T18:46:36Z ecraven: gwatt: well, every actual scheme has records in some way, doesn't it?
2017-11-27T18:46:53Z gwatt: ecraven: but records are more like C structs than like java objects
2017-11-27T18:47:38Z ecraven: this looks like the usual "implement objects as closures" thing, right?
2017-11-27T18:48:05Z yurinew: i think i'm supposed to be using lists/pairs to figure this out
2017-11-27T18:48:08Z ecraven: (lambda (method . params) (case method ((get) ..) ((set) ..) ...))
2017-11-27T18:49:00Z yurinew: also what's the terminology for prefixing a function call with a ' ?
2017-11-27T18:49:06Z ecraven: quoting
2017-11-27T18:49:26Z ecraven: you quote a list, you don't usually call it a function call (because it isn't)
2017-11-27T18:49:29Z yurinew: i know quoting denotes the start of a list, but what's it mean if a function call is prefixed with it?
2017-11-27T18:49:32Z ecraven: '(foo bar baaz) is just a list, not a function call
2017-11-27T18:49:32Z yurinew: yeah
2017-11-27T18:49:43Z yurinew: like for example if i was to do
2017-11-27T18:49:44Z ecraven: nothing, that just makes it data, it is not evaluated
2017-11-27T18:50:11Z Labu: some implementation have object
2017-11-27T18:50:20Z Labu: hello
2017-11-27T18:51:03Z yurinew: like for example here: https://pastebin.com/raw/t3GhfU0B
2017-11-27T18:52:33Z gwatt: Is there a reason to do it that way, ((mylib 'add) <boodk>)
2017-11-27T18:52:48Z gwatt: and not (add-book mylib book) ?
2017-11-27T18:53:07Z yurinew: that's part of the TDD structure i was given to use
2017-11-27T18:53:12Z gwatt: ok
2017-11-27T18:54:36Z ecraven: yurinew: if that's the API, then (mylib 'add) must return a function that takes a book
2017-11-27T18:54:55Z ecraven: (define (mylib method) (...something... (lambda (book) ...)))
2017-11-27T18:55:04Z ecraven: or probably even:
2017-11-27T18:55:11Z ecraven: (define (mylib method) (...something... (if (eq? method 'add) (lambda (book) ...))))
2017-11-27T18:56:19Z yurinew: okay, and would "method" be a function external to the myLib function? eg. add in this case?
2017-11-27T18:56:30Z ecraven: 'add is a symbol, not a function
2017-11-27T18:56:40Z ecraven: rudybot: (symbol? 'add)
2017-11-27T18:56:40Z rudybot: ecraven: ; Value: #t
2017-11-27T18:57:07Z yurinew: okay i see
2017-11-27T18:58:45Z ecraven: did you learn about `case'?
2017-11-27T18:58:55Z yurinew: i haven't
2017-11-27T18:58:59Z ecraven: cond?
2017-11-27T18:59:23Z yurinew: we're expected to look into these concepts ourselves, we mostly just go over assigned work in the course and are expected to learn the concepts independently
2017-11-27T18:59:30Z gwatt: what about assoc? (or assq, assv)
2017-11-27T18:59:57Z yurinew: of these, i've only learned about cond, but it'd definitely be useful for me to look into what these mean now
2017-11-27T19:00:03Z ecraven: ok, case works as follows   (case <thing>  ((<pattern>) <do-something>) ((<other-pattern>) <do-something-else>) ... (else <do-whatever>))
2017-11-27T19:00:20Z yurinew: isn't that sort of like cond?
2017-11-27T19:00:32Z ecraven: rudybot: (case 'add ((add) (display "it is add!")) ((remove) (display "it is remove!")) (else (display "don't know that one")))
2017-11-27T19:00:59Z yurinew: well that's helpful, i see how it differs from cond now
2017-11-27T19:00:59Z rudybot: ecraven: I'm getting tired of having to manually run M-x diminish for each minor mode I want to remove from the display every time I start emacs ...
2017-11-27T19:01:29Z ecraven: yurinew: it's more specialized, and it's very handy with symbols or numbers
2017-11-27T19:01:44Z ecraven: less tying ;) otherwise, you'd have to repeat (eq? method ...) all the time
2017-11-27T19:01:47Z yurinew: laptop is dying so i need to go. i'll be back later though. thank you so much for the help with this and for being patient with me
2017-11-27T19:02:13Z ecraven: no problem, I'll probably not be online later, but back tomorrow. just ask around, sometimes it's quiet here ;)
2017-11-27T19:02:24Z ecraven: rudybot: #t
2017-11-27T19:02:25Z rudybot: ecraven: ; Value: #t
2017-11-27T19:02:37Z ecraven: rudybot: (case 'add ((add) "it is add!") ((remove) "it is remove!") (else "don't know that one"))
2017-11-27T19:02:38Z rudybot: ecraven: Suppose I write a hook system, with add-hook and remove-hook or something, and then someone else decides to write a utility to make it work nicely with threads or generators, something along those lines. Someone else writes a differnt hook system, with different functions, that other person now needs to rework their utility to work with that other hook system
2017-11-27T19:03:08Z ecraven: rudybot: (case 1 ((1) 'one) (else 'not-one))
2017-11-27T19:03:08Z rudybot: ecraven: ; Value: 'one
2017-11-27T19:03:19Z ecraven: strange ;)
2017-11-27T19:04:42Z jcowan_: ecraven: case does eqv?, fortunatley
2017-11-27T19:05:03Z takitus: I haven't seen rudybot in action before, but is it usually so snarky?
2017-11-27T19:05:14Z ecraven: it doesn't like the longer case for some reason
2017-11-27T19:05:38Z ecraven: jcowan_: why would the longer one not work though?
2017-11-27T19:06:13Z gwatt: rudybot: (case 'add ((add) 'add) ((remove) 'remove) (else '||))
2017-11-27T19:06:15Z rudybot: gwatt: your sandbox is ready
2017-11-27T19:06:15Z rudybot: gwatt: ; Value: 'add
2017-11-27T19:06:21Z jcowan_: takitus: Sometimes rudybot channels its author
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2017-11-27T19:06:50Z takitus: ecraven: So I see.
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2017-11-27T21:15:14Z DeeEff: ecraven: you in here? I published my generalized-arrays (ArraysCowan) egg to CHICKEN yesterday on the mailing list
2017-11-27T21:15:26Z DeeEff: ecraven: http://wiki.call-cc.org/eggref/4/generalized-arrays
2017-11-27T21:16:33Z ecraven: DeeEff: thanks! I'll have a look later, maybe I'll try to port it ;)
2017-11-27T21:17:12Z DeeEff: cool! Let me know if you get it working on any other Schemes. If possible I'd be open to making it R7RS, but currently don't know what kind of work that'd entail
2017-11-27T21:17:23Z ecraven: I'll try to find out ;)
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2017-11-27T22:30:50Z takitus: Can anyone explain why the handler passed to with-exception-handler must return non-locally? As I understand it, trying to return locally (within the dynamic context of with-exception-handler) raises another exception, but I'm not sure I understand why.
2017-11-27T22:31:08Z ecraven: what would it return to?
2017-11-27T22:32:06Z ecraven: where would "locally" be for the handler?
2017-11-27T22:34:24Z takitus: (with-exception-handler hnd thunk) evaluates to (thunk) if no exception occurs, so I guess what I'm expecting is the return value of the handler if one _does_ occur.
2017-11-27T22:34:47Z takitus: I'm not saying that's a reasonable expectation, just trying to be clear on where I'm screwing up. :-)
2017-11-27T22:34:59Z ecraven: takitus: that would mean that with-exception-handler has to reify its continuation, which you might not want
2017-11-27T22:35:15Z ecraven: you might want to escape to some other place anyway, so that's probably why it doesn't do this
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2017-11-27T22:36:10Z takitus: Hmm, ok.
2017-11-27T22:37:32Z takitus: i.e. that would require with-exception handler to provide <handler> with the current continuation, which would be more complicated and not always the right thing?
2017-11-27T22:38:32Z ecraven: well, at least internally, it would have to call/cc and call that continuation with the result of evaluating (handler)
2017-11-27T22:39:02Z takitus: Right.
2017-11-27T22:39:46Z takitus: ecraven: Thanks very much, I believe I understand now.
2017-11-27T22:39:57Z ecraven: you are welcome ;)
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2017-11-28T00:59:27Z jcowan_: takitus: exception handling works differently in Lisps than in most languages
2017-11-28T01:00:23Z jcowan_: The exception handler is called with the current continuation, so when it returns, the caller gets control.
2017-11-28T01:00:45Z jcowan_: If it was raised with `raise-continuably', the caller gets control again
2017-11-28T01:01:23Z jcowan_: If it was raised with `raise`, when the handler returns you get another exception, 'attempt to continue the non-continuable'
2017-11-28T01:01:53Z jcowan_: So if you want the handler to make a non-local exit, you have to arrange for that in advance.
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2017-11-28T02:00:50Z takitus: jcowan_: Right, thanks for clarifying. I was just reading about raise vs. raise-continuable in R7 and realized why that distinction exists.
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2017-11-28T15:03:47Z DGASAU: waveprop: iteration is very hard to reason about.
2017-11-28T15:04:00Z DGASAU: waveprop: essentially, you reduce it to recursion.
2017-11-28T15:04:59Z DGASAU: waveprop: hence the idea of using recursion itself directly and explicitly instead of doing the latter step over and over again
2017-11-28T15:05:43Z DGASAU: waveprop: what you need is some text book on mathematical induction.
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2017-11-28T15:08:00Z DGASAU: takitus: it is common mistake, but still no, Lisp has not descended from lambda calculus, actually.
2017-11-28T15:08:34Z DGASAU: takitus: just in case, McCarthy told that himself explicitly.
2017-11-28T15:11:28Z Riastradh: Sure it was.  It just had a genetic mutation that accidentally discarded the alpha rule.
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2017-11-28T15:28:30Z pjb: Well, very hard if you find Hoare very hard.  I don't.
2017-11-28T15:29:31Z pjb: Notably, recursion is easier, but only if you eliminate mutation.  If you keep mutation, then it's at least as hard as iteration.
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2017-11-28T15:32:53Z DGASAU: Hoare's approach is still significantly harder for humans.
2017-11-28T15:37:43Z jcowan_: pjb: Mutation of variables, or mutation in general?
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2017-11-28T15:49:46Z pjb: jcowan_: in general.
2017-11-28T15:50:09Z pjb: DGASAU: you're assuming humans are not mathematicians.
2017-11-28T15:50:32Z pjb: I'm saying: take babies, make mathematicians of them!
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2017-11-28T16:11:14Z DGASAU: pjb: I'm not assuming it, I know that very well that software developers are not mathematicians.
2017-11-28T16:19:12Z qu1j0t3: what, none of them?
2017-11-28T16:19:27Z qu1j0t3: and couldn't they learn?
2017-11-28T16:19:51Z qu1j0t3: they're often assumed to be a bright bunch...
2017-11-28T16:29:53Z DGASAU: qu1j0t3: those, who are, are actually significantly worse as engineers. :(
2017-11-28T16:30:22Z qu1j0t3: that's a pretty bold assertion.
2017-11-28T16:30:30Z qu1j0t3: but ok, you do you
2017-11-28T16:30:31Z DGASAU: There exist exceptions, but those are pretty rare.
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2017-11-28T17:16:02Z jcowan: I love mathematics, but it emphatically doesn't love me.
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2017-11-28T19:13:27Z takitus: DGASAU: Worse at "software engineering", that is, the field Djikstra described as "How To Program If You Cannot"?
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2017-11-28T19:18:06Z X-Scale: haha...that's a nice quote
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2017-11-28T19:46:28Z jcowan: X-Scale: https://www.cs.utexas.edu/~EWD/transcriptions/EWD10xx/EWD1036.html
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2017-11-28T19:59:40Z takitus: X-Scale: Djikstra's a beautiful writer. :)
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2017-11-30T09:52:55Z wasamasa: I suspect I've found my first kawa bug
2017-11-30T09:53:04Z wasamasa: http://ix.io/CFa
2017-11-30T09:53:29Z wasamasa: this prints #u8(146), 146 and -7 instead of 9
2017-11-30T09:54:18Z C-Keen: depends on the definition of right shift
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2017-11-30T09:54:34Z C-Keen: whether the bits are filled with 1s or 0s
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2017-11-30T09:56:25Z wasamasa: it works perfectly fine if you replace type with 146
2017-11-30T09:57:35Z wasamasa: I suspect I shouldn't be using bitshifting to figure out the top bits
2017-11-30T09:57:38Z C-Keen: ah
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2017-11-30T09:59:33Z wasamasa: "These functions operate on the 2’s complement binary representation of an exact integer."
2017-11-30T09:59:37Z wasamasa: that might explain it
2017-11-30T09:59:55Z wasamasa: 2's complement means signed numbers, no?
2017-11-30T10:00:02Z ecraven: yes
2017-11-30T10:00:17Z wasamasa: and considering an u8vector only contains signed ones...
2017-11-30T10:00:40Z fizzie: It's an *u*8vector, one would hope it contains *u*nsigned bytes.
2017-11-30T10:00:47Z fizzie: Kawa documentation does claim: "If the type is unsigned, an unsigned (logic) shift is done for bitwise-arithmetic-shift-right, rather than a signed (arithmetic) shift."
2017-11-30T10:00:49Z wasamasa: err, unsigned ones
2017-11-30T10:01:26Z wasamasa: so much about translating C idioms
2017-11-30T10:01:42Z wasamasa: fortunately they have a bitwise-bit-field procedure I can use instead
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2017-11-30T15:16:16Z Riastradh: `bitwise-arithmetic-shift-right'?  Seriously?
2017-11-30T15:16:31Z Riastradh: Is this a joke?
2017-11-30T15:18:58Z Riastradh: And obviously yes, this is a bug in Kawa misinterpreting the high bit of a byte to mean a sign bit for the `arithmetic' shift, as if Scheme even had a separate concept of signed vs unsigned integer values on their own.
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2017-11-30T15:20:35Z wasamasa: it's perfectly fine if you're aware that most of the bitwise functions interpret their argument as a signed number
2017-11-30T15:20:38Z wasamasa: I wasn't
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2017-11-30T15:24:02Z Riastradh: So does (u8vector-ref (u8vector 146) 0) return 146 or -110?
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2017-11-30T15:26:35Z Riastradh: If it returns -110, then it's obviously broken.  If it returns 146, then its combination with bitwise-arithmetic-shift-right is broken.
2017-11-30T15:26:41Z ecraven: -110
2017-11-30T15:26:45Z ecraven: on kawa
2017-11-30T15:27:01Z Riastradh: Then Kawa's idea of u8vector is nonsense.
2017-11-30T15:27:03Z ecraven: which kind of begs the question why it isn't an s8vector
2017-11-30T15:27:06Z Riastradh: Right.
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2017-11-30T15:37:27Z wasamasa: Riastradh: it returns 146 actually
2017-11-30T15:37:43Z Riastradh: Heh.
2017-11-30T15:37:46Z Riastradh: ecraven sez -110.
2017-11-30T15:37:48Z wasamasa: the thing is that it returns an unsigned number and an unsigned number is interpreted as a signed number by that procedure
2017-11-30T15:37:51Z Riastradh: wasamasa sez 146.
2017-11-30T15:38:08Z Riastradh: It is increasingly clear, as if it weren't already, that there is a bug in Kawa.
2017-11-30T15:38:19Z wasamasa: oh damnit
2017-11-30T15:38:44Z Riastradh: If by `is interpreted as a signed number' you mean `is buggily replaced by a different integer', then sure, what bitwise-arithmetic-shift-right does is sensible and the bug is somewhere else.
2017-11-30T15:38:45Z wasamasa: ecraven is right, I just looked at my log output from before
2017-11-30T15:39:03Z ecraven: ;
2017-11-30T15:39:04Z ecraven: D
2017-11-30T15:39:17Z Riastradh: Picassemoji?
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2017-11-30T15:39:34Z wasamasa: this kind of bug is maddening, but it doesn't matter, I replaced the code with bitwise-bit-field already
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2017-11-30T15:39:48Z Riastradh: Which is fine, but you should file the bug!
2017-11-30T15:40:05Z Riastradh: Also file a bug for whoever put the name `bitwise' on operations that do not, in fact, operate bit-wise on an array of bits.
2017-11-30T15:40:22Z wasamasa: I suspect there's a R6RS precedent
2017-11-30T15:40:29Z ecraven: Riastradh: I've mapped Return to double as shift, so if I release too fast, I'll get spurious newlines :-)
2017-11-30T15:40:53Z wasamasa: Riastradh: it doesn't help that in java, byte arrays are signed
2017-11-30T15:41:08Z Riastradh: Sounds like Kawa needs to try a little harder to make u8vectors actually be u8.
2017-11-30T15:41:13Z ecraven: wasamasa: but this is kawa, not java
2017-11-30T15:41:26Z wasamasa: ecraven: it's implemented on top of java and if the abstraction is too thin...
2017-11-30T15:42:11Z ecraven: of course, but it's still very much incorrect Scheme ;)
2017-11-30T15:42:20Z Riastradh: I don't see why we don't just use the names shift-left and shift-right (or maybe `shift' for the variant whose count can be signed).  Their definition on integers, interpreted in the infinite-length two's-complement form, is natural and convenient.
2017-11-30T15:42:49Z Riastradh: `arithmetic' vs `logical' presumes a distinction Scheme doesn't have between `unsigned integers' and `signed integers'.
2017-11-30T15:42:54Z ecraven: is there any other kind of shifting that isn't bitwise?
2017-11-30T15:43:24Z Riastradh: ecraven: Shifting isn't `bitwise'.  The output at one bit position is a function of the input at another bit position.
2017-11-30T15:43:59Z Riastradh: bitwise-and means `do the AND function bit-wise to the arrays of bits', i.e. apply it independently at every bit position.
2017-11-30T15:44:32Z ecraven: well, it "operates on the bits".. but then, what doesn't. ;)
2017-11-30T15:44:41Z Riastradh: bitwise-+
2017-11-30T15:44:44Z Riastradh: bitwise-car
2017-11-30T15:44:50Z Riastradh: bitwise-display
2017-11-30T15:44:50Z ecraven: aye
2017-11-30T15:44:55Z Riastradh: bitwise-call-with-current-continuation
2017-11-30T15:46:10Z ecraven: Riastradh: have you perchance followed the mails on the problems with http in mit-scheme? I'm guessing it isn't an urgent problem for anyone that it doesn't work in git?
2017-11-30T15:46:26Z Riastradh: I saw them fly by but I didn't pay attention because I don't know anything about MIT Scheme's http code these days.
2017-11-30T15:46:43Z Riastradh: Generally I think MIT Scheme's model of ports is pretty wacky.
2017-11-30T15:47:53Z Riastradh: Generally I'm not keen on the notion of `text ports', and the notion of `binary port' should imply a buffer rather than require an unknown procedure call indirection for every byte.
2017-11-30T15:49:38Z ecraven: OK, thanks ;)
2017-11-30T15:52:52Z ecraven: the simplest fix I found is converting the body of every http request with utf8->string, but of course that only works if the body actually *is* utf-8 (which it often isn't). otherwise, the problem is deep inside the text/binary port distinction, sockets really should be binary ports
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2017-11-30T15:55:34Z ecraven: couldn't a "textual port" just be a wrapper around a binary port, including translating encoding and end-of-line convention and whatever?
2017-11-30T15:55:44Z ecraven: I think java works that way
2017-11-30T15:56:31Z Riastradh: That may be roughly how it works now.  Chris rewrote a lot of it recently.  It's possible that it's more sensible now than it was when I last looked at it.
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2017-11-30T15:59:41Z Riastradh: binary-port.scm looks more or less reasonable, except that read-u8 and write-u8 are still heavier-weight than I would hope.
2017-11-30T16:03:02Z Riastradh: Also, bleh.  It's still stuck on channels internally.
2017-11-30T16:03:05Z jcowan: The R6RS committee decided to take the subset of SRFI 60 they chose and put "bitwise-" on all names that didn't have it.
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2017-11-30T16:05:42Z jcowan: ecraven: Java does work that way and so does R6RS, but I realized that was wrong, because if a binary port has been used before converting it, the result is undefined.
2017-11-30T16:06:15Z jcowan: So in essence, you have to convert it right away if at all, so you might as well have types that may or may not be disjoint, depending on the implementation.
2017-11-30T16:07:42Z jcowan: In Java I ended up writing code that accepted either a text or a binary port.  If the binary port was not a buffered port, buffer it.  Then convert it to a text port.  Then check (in both branches) if the text port is buffered, and if not, buffer it.
2017-11-30T16:07:55Z jcowan: Which is fugly
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2017-11-30T16:08:37Z ecraven: why would you have to convert before first use?
2017-11-30T16:08:59Z Riastradh: Basically there should just be one concept, binary port, and if you want to write an encoded string then have an operation to write an encoded string that takes as a parameter the encoding.
2017-11-30T16:10:16Z jcowan: That's fine for output but not so good for input
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2017-11-30T16:12:05Z Riastradh: Umm, if you want to read a code point you have an operation to...read a code point?
2017-11-30T16:12:15Z Riastradh: If you want to read n of them, you have an operation to read n of them?
2017-11-30T16:16:10Z gwatt: are you saying across all of standard scheme only have bianry ports?
2017-11-30T16:16:36Z Riastradh: I'm having trouble parsing the question?
2017-11-30T16:18:35Z gwatt: Do you want the rnrs standard library to only specify binary ports?
2017-11-30T16:19:08Z gwatt: and then add functions to perform textual operations when needed?
2017-11-30T16:19:23Z Riastradh: Sure, that would be reasonable.
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2017-11-30T16:20:32Z jcowan: In that case, high-level procedures like (read [port]) would have to be (read encoding [port])
2017-11-30T16:20:40Z gwatt: maybe.
2017-11-30T16:20:57Z gwatt: you could instead have a parameter (current-transcoder) like chez does
2017-11-30T16:21:13Z gwatt: if that's #f for text-only operations, throw an exception
2017-11-30T16:21:19Z jcowan: Except that's horrible when you are reading from many files which might have different encodings
2017-11-30T16:21:46Z gwatt: the encoding parameter could default to (current-transcoder0
2017-11-30T16:21:49Z jcowan: in the end you wind up with read-with-encoding, which wraps your call to read by parameterize.
2017-11-30T16:22:30Z Riastradh: Why don't we just define the syntax in terms of UTF-8 octet sequences?
2017-11-30T16:22:33Z jcowan: the cleanest thing is to put the encoding in the port object and treat it as immutable
2017-11-30T16:23:02Z jcowan shrugs
2017-11-30T16:23:12Z jcowan: Some languages do that.  Traditionally Lisp does not.
2017-11-30T16:23:58Z Riastradh: That's kinda because traditionally Lisp existed before UTF-8 existed, not because the prior practice was a good idea!
2017-11-30T16:24:16Z jcowan: Granted.  Of course, if you had been on the WG you could have raised this point in a timely way.
2017-11-30T16:24:20Z jcowan: (dig, dig)
2017-11-30T16:24:45Z Riastradh is dug
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2017-11-30T16:26:44Z ecraven: there's always r10rs!
2017-11-30T16:27:15Z ecraven: if you squint very hard, RIA looks a bit like R10 :P
2017-11-30T16:27:37Z gwatt: what happened to 8 and 9?
2017-11-30T16:27:47Z ecraven: just planning ahead :P
2017-11-30T16:28:05Z gwatt: That's how you get versino numbers like chrome
2017-11-30T16:28:08Z Riastradh: 8 and 9 are reserved for interminable arguments that I'd rather skip.
2017-11-30T16:28:08Z ecraven: though given the traditional time frames, r8 is already long-term planing
2017-11-30T16:29:29Z ecraven: jcowan: but the problem is that putting the encoding with the port doesn't work for things like HTTP, as you want to read the headers as text, but the body might be binary data
2017-11-30T16:30:00Z Riastradh: Well.
2017-11-30T16:30:37Z Riastradh: The header is everything up to the octet sequence 0d 0a 0d 0a.
2017-11-30T16:31:11Z Riastradh: The header fields themselves are separated by the octet sequence 0d 0a (modulo complications with multiline header fields).
2017-11-30T16:31:41Z Riastradh: The header field name is separated from the header field value by a 3a octet followed by any number of 09 or 20 octets.
2017-11-30T16:32:05Z jcowan: ecraven: I agree that it's a problem, but the ability to wrap a binary buffer as a textual one does not solve it,
2017-11-30T16:32:08Z Riastradh: Does it make sense to use the same machinery by which you would decoded UTF-16LE octet sequences for parsing headers like that?
2017-11-30T16:33:52Z jcowan: because once you have read a character out of the textual port, the file position of the underlying binary port is undefined.
2017-11-30T16:34:24Z ecraven: why is it undefined?
2017-11-30T16:34:50Z jcowan: Because you do not know how much the textual port has buffered up.
2017-11-30T16:35:08Z jcowan: thus reading 1 character may involve reading 1 KB of bytes
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2017-11-30T16:35:22Z Riastradh: ...That's an even foolisher way to do things.
2017-11-30T16:35:53Z ecraven: jcowan: why does reading text *need* to buffer?
2017-11-30T16:36:10Z Riastradh: Now, it would be reasonable to separate two concepts: (1) an external I/O device, like a file descriptor; (2) a buffered binary port around a such an I/O device.
2017-11-30T16:36:13Z jcowan: It doesn't, but it is efficient to do so, especially from highly stateful encodings.
2017-11-30T16:36:35Z jcowan: Buffering is always done for performance
2017-11-30T16:36:38Z ecraven: jcowan: I mean, wouldn't it be better to make the buffering more explicit?
2017-11-30T16:36:49Z ecraven: so not every textual port would be buffered by default
2017-11-30T16:37:21Z jcowan: Fair enough that there should be some way to shut buffering off.
2017-11-30T16:37:59Z jcowan: we already want that on the output side
2017-11-30T16:38:20Z gwatt: r6rs should do that
2017-11-30T16:39:01Z gwatt: You can specify a buffer mode that can be one of 'none 'line 'block
2017-11-30T16:39:13Z ecraven: Riastradh: in which way would that help to solve the problem of reading encoded data from the raw binary port?
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2017-11-30T16:39:36Z Riastradh: jcowan: That's easy: you make it a size-1 buffer.
2017-11-30T16:40:42Z jcowan: It's unclear that buffer types beyond the R6RS ones are actually useful to specify.
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2017-11-30T16:42:45Z Riastradh: Sure, call that `none'.  The point is that reading from a binary port should first entail consulting the buffer, and then if it's empty asking some backing I/O source to fill the buffer.
2017-11-30T16:43:16Z jcowan: I don't think anyone disputes that.
2017-11-30T16:44:10Z jcowan: ecraven: I think it would be a good to have a read-bytevector(!)-delimited that reads until a certain (sequence of) bytes has been read.
2017-11-30T16:44:28Z jcowan: this is the bv analogue of read-line but with more flexibility.
2017-11-30T16:45:57Z jcowan: that way you can read the header using a delimiter of #u8(#xd #xa #xd #xa) and then convert the bytevector to text.
2017-11-30T16:46:46Z aeth: Sounds like a few lines of code
2017-11-30T16:46:52Z aeth: Although I guess read-line is also a few lines of code
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2017-11-30T16:47:59Z jcowan: As are most things standardized in RnRS.  The point is to chunk operations under standardized names, so you know what they do by looking at them.  Pi is less than a line of code, but worth having if you are doing math stuff.
2017-11-30T16:49:36Z jcowan: By having textual ports as a separate type, we can bury the question of the double buffer under the implementation's rug
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2017-11-30T16:55:02Z ecraven: aeth: I agree with jcowan here, I'd love to have even trivial things like read-from-string, write-to-string standardised, so I can just use them, and don't have to find out whether (and where) they are implemented in the current Scheme of choice
2017-11-30T16:55:03Z aeth: Well, pi has to be built into all but the most minimal of languages because of the nightmare of interoperability if someone puts 3.14 and another puts 3 and another puts 22/7 and another puts 3.141592653589793 (and three of those are different numeric types in the tower!)
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2017-11-30T16:55:06Z ecraven: but I guess that way lies CL :-/
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2017-11-30T16:55:36Z jcowan: If you think pi is 3, all your circles are hexagons.
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2017-11-30T16:55:41Z ecraven: shouldn't buffering be only done on the binary port anyway? does the textual port on top of the binary port really need its own buffer?
2017-11-30T16:56:02Z jcowan: yes, it does, because encoding/decoding is much more efficient if done a bufferload at a time
2017-11-30T16:56:23Z jcowan: particularly, as I said before, when dealing with stateful encodings.
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2017-11-30T16:58:10Z ecraven: sorry if I don't understand.. if I decode utf-8, the textual port would always read one entire codepoint, so it wouldn't need much internal state *between* reading codepoints. would that really be (that much) less efficient than grabbing a longer bytevector from the underlying port?
2017-11-30T16:58:10Z jcowan: I found this out when working on my HTML parser, TagSoup, in Java.  Not encoding or double-encoding the textual port seriously loses
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2017-11-30T16:58:49Z jcowan: If it's the inner loop of your program, you are better off doing it in C with libiconv, which is about converting a buffer to a buffer
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2017-11-30T16:58:52Z aeth: jcowan: I wanted to have three types in my example and couldn't find a better integer approximation
2017-11-30T16:58:54Z jcowan: (unless your compiler is C-fast)
2017-11-30T16:58:54Z ecraven: I'm imagining some kind of stream fusion here, maybe that's totally wrong
2017-11-30T16:59:29Z jcowan: s//a buffer of bytes to a buffer of codepoints or vice versa
2017-11-30T16:59:36Z ecraven: if you do it in C, all the above discussion is moot anyway, isn't it?
2017-11-30T17:00:29Z ecraven: you pass an char[] to C, and get back an int[], or something like that
2017-11-30T17:02:32Z aeth: C is probably the fastest language to do these things and probably also the least safe.
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2017-11-30T17:03:09Z jcowan: Sure, but in general people trust libiconv
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2017-11-30T17:03:39Z aeth: Yes, but trusting C means trusting it to be patched quickly when the inevitable security bugs pop up.
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2017-11-30T17:04:03Z aeth: And most of those bugs don't translate into modern languages
2017-11-30T17:05:22Z jcowan: aeth: In many systems libiconv is part of libc, which almost everyone trusts
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2017-11-30T17:38:29Z aeth: jcowan: Would you define 3x slower than C as "C-fast", btw? 3x-5x seems like a bar many very diverse languages can reach, e.g. https://benchmarksgame.alioth.debian.org/u64q/which-programs-are-fastest.html
2017-11-30T17:38:43Z aeth: (Racket is, for the most part, just outside of that range on that benchmark site.)
2017-11-30T17:39:22Z jcowan: It's really about this particular bit of code, not benchmarks in general.  Just doing array boundary checks is probably enough to slow you down.
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2017-11-30T17:53:10Z aeth: If you're working with a circular buffer, you could implement wrapping arithmetic so you literally never go out of bounds. In CL you can do something like: (declaim (inline mod+)) (defun mod+ (number divisor &optional (delta 1)) (mod (+ number delta) divisor))
2017-11-30T17:53:19Z aeth: and then: (define-modify-macro incf-mod (divisor &optional (delta 1)) mod+)
2017-11-30T17:53:39Z aeth: Too many CLisms for me to think of a way to translate it into Scheme, but it's probably still very simple
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2017-11-30T17:54:28Z aeth: Then, assuming the compiler knows the array length and is sufficiently smart, it doesn't need to bounds check if it knows that the index is always valid.
2017-11-30T17:58:10Z aeth: A Scheme compiler that has knowledge of the whole program could probably beat SBCL here, where function boundaries are usually boundaries.
2017-11-30T17:58:45Z wasamasa: rudybot: stalin, stalin, stalin!
2017-11-30T17:58:46Z rudybot: wasamasa: "Superman is described in Soviet radio broadcasts "...as the Champion of the common worker who fights a never-ending battle for Stalin, socialism, and the international expansion of the Warsaw Pact." "
2017-11-30T18:01:10Z Riastradh: jcowan: In a sensible system, read-u8 grabs a byte from the buffer with as little indirection as possible.  What more does a UTF-whatever decoder need?
2017-11-30T18:01:35Z aeth: Riastradh: utf-8 isn't of a set byte length, if that's what your question is
2017-11-30T18:02:13Z Riastradh: aeth: Not even sure how that is related to my question?
2017-11-30T18:02:18Z aeth: guess I misread it then
2017-11-30T18:02:19Z jcowan: Riastradh: I keep saying it's not about UTF-8, it's about text encodings in general.
2017-11-30T18:03:50Z Riastradh: jcowan: Can you be more specific, then, rather than more general?
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2017-11-30T18:11:37Z jcowan: In decoding ISO 2022, you have to maintain some state in order to correctly interpret the bytes as characters.  If you are converting a whole buffer, you can store these state variables locally (in registers, e.g.) rather than keeping them in the port.
2017-11-30T18:12:04Z jcowan: That is, you still have to keep them in the port, but you can cache them at the beginning and decache them at the end of a buffer.
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2017-11-30T18:32:06Z takitus: Ugh, wake me up when all non-UTF-8 encodings have died.
2017-11-30T18:32:20Z ecraven: takitus: will they ever? :)
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2017-11-30T18:36:39Z jcowan: Well, we are pretty close to that now:  90% of all Web pages are UTF-8 (including the ones that are pure ASCII)
2017-11-30T18:37:15Z jcowan: Subtitles are typically encoded in SCSU, which is also a stateful encoding
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2017-11-30T19:12:16Z takitus: jcowan: Huh, most SRT subs I've encountered are UTF-8 or -16. Is that some DVD-sub encoding?
2017-11-30T19:13:33Z jcowan: Not sure of the details.  It was discussed on an internal Unicode ML recently as evidence against deprecating SCSU.  Not sure if it's still in active use for subtitles or just a dormant part of the standards.
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2017-11-30T19:18:13Z takitus: According to Wikipedia it's basically Reuters' idea... weird.
2017-11-30T19:19:15Z takitus: Also SCSU => "Standard Compression Scheme for Unicode". Standards are great, so many to choose from!
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