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2017-09-01T01:08:25Z jethier: ecraven: hey, are you around? :)
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2017-09-01T01:21:16Z jethier: ecraven: well, sorry to bother you, but I was wondering if you would be able to re-run your r7rs benchmarks for cyclone when you have a chance. got some nice speed improvements in 0.6.2
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2017-09-01T01:35:39Z gwatt: ecraven: speaking of your benchmarks, why do you include chez and petite?
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2017-09-01T01:52:39Z jethier: to be fair, it is more useful to benchmark a wide range of schemes rather than just r7rs
2017-09-01T01:52:56Z jethier: femtolisp was just added
2017-09-01T02:04:04Z gwatt: but chez and petite are the same scheme
2017-09-01T02:06:47Z jethier: Isn't petite just the interpreter though?
2017-09-01T02:07:16Z jethier: I suppose now that chez is open source there isn't much reason to use petite
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2017-09-01T05:25:13Z wasamasa: gwatt: petite uses a different strategy for interpretation
2017-09-01T05:25:27Z wasamasa: gwatt: so it's performance characteristics will be different from the compiler
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2017-09-01T06:02:46Z ecraven: hm.. anyone using bones? I get this:   bones.o: relocation R_X86_64_32S against `.data' can not be used when making a shared object; recompile with -fPIC
2017-09-01T06:03:11Z ecraven: I'm assuming this is a problem with the actual assembly code, not just with the way it is compiled?
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2017-09-01T06:49:56Z wasamasa: time to mail Felix I guess
2017-09-01T06:50:23Z wasamasa: alternatively, alexshendi (on #chicken)
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2017-09-01T06:52:48Z ecraven: thanks
2017-09-01T06:53:08Z ecraven: might just be that I'm using gcc incorrectly to link the nasm object results :-/
2017-09-01T06:54:31Z wasamasa: sure, hard to tell without any examples
2017-09-01T06:54:58Z ecraven: well, try to run './bench bones' from github.com/ecraven/r7rs-benchmarks ;)
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2017-09-01T06:59:55Z wasamasa: hm, it's weird that you have to use nasm *and* gcc
2017-09-01T07:00:15Z wasamasa: can't nasm call the linker itself?
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2017-09-01T07:01:31Z ecraven: maybe, I'm no expert :-/
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2017-09-01T07:05:39Z wasamasa: the documentation refers to ld, so I'd try that instead of relying on gcc getting it right
2017-09-01T07:06:04Z ecraven: ok, I'll play around with that later ;) thanks for the tip!
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2017-09-01T07:20:19Z ecraven: what is a number that is real? but not rational?
2017-09-01T07:21:04Z edgar-rft: a complex
2017-09-01T07:21:22Z ventonegro: any irrational number?
2017-09-01T07:23:13Z edgar-rft: err: a complex isn't a real, but a float ia a real and not a rational
2017-09-01T07:23:24Z ecraven: edgar-rft: not on chicken or mit
2017-09-01T07:23:32Z ecraven: correctly, 3.15 is actually 315/100, so that is a rational
2017-09-01T07:23:43Z ecraven: even (sin 0.5) is rational
2017-09-01T07:24:00Z ecraven: ventonegro: how do you actually *enter* an irrational number?
2017-09-01T07:25:36Z ventonegro: ecraven: You can't, every floating point number has a finite mantissa
2017-09-01T07:26:24Z ecraven: ventonegro: so rational? is the same as real? in effect on any Scheme?
2017-09-01T07:26:36Z ecraven: unless said Scheme somehow supports exact irrational numbers?
2017-09-01T07:27:14Z ventonegro: ecraven: I see your point now... Yes, I think so
2017-09-01T07:27:22Z ventonegro: But now I'm also curious
2017-09-01T07:27:56Z ecraven: just noticed that complex? is the same as number? on mit scheme, but that is ok ;)
2017-09-01T07:28:04Z ecraven: jcowan: ping :) ^
2017-09-01T07:28:33Z ecraven: Riastradh: do you know of any way to enter a number into Scheme that is real? but not rational?
2017-09-01T07:29:57Z fizzie: You could argue that a flonum could be non-rational? if it's non-exact?.
2017-09-01T07:31:00Z fizzie: R5RS at least hints at that sort of thing with: "For example, an implementation that uses flonums to represent all its inexact real numbers may support a practically unbounded range of exact integers and rationals while limiting the range of inexact reals to the dynamic range of the flonum format."
2017-09-01T07:31:33Z edgar-rft: IEEE floats are the most used float implementation in computers, but not necessarily used by all schemes. An IEEE float value of 3.15 is by definition a numerical range, not even a single number.
2017-09-01T07:32:55Z fizzie: (Although rational?'s documentation does say "In many implementations the rational? procedure will be the same as real? -- but unusual implementations may be able to represent some irrational numbers exactly --")
2017-09-01T07:33:33Z ejt: presumably by keeping them as surds
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2017-09-01T10:20:24Z ecraven: jcowan: is this kind of what you were thinking of with the predicate dispatch?
2017-09-01T10:20:30Z ecraven: (still missing next-method)
2017-09-01T10:34:14Z ecraven: http://ix.io/zwG
2017-09-01T10:36:20Z ejt: you could have one predicate on the whole arg list
2017-09-01T10:36:41Z ejt: that way people can choose to just dispatch on the first arg
2017-09-01T10:37:51Z ecraven: ejt: you could just leave off the predicate for some args
2017-09-01T10:38:03Z ejt: ah
2017-09-01T10:38:49Z ecraven: (though I didn't implement that yet ;)
2017-09-01T10:38:57Z ecraven: this is just a rough prototype, to see how useful it might be
2017-09-01T10:39:08Z ecraven: I'm still not sure of how to handle sorting of applicable methods :-/
2017-09-01T10:39:09Z ejt: useful to me; I need to implement somthing similar to this
2017-09-01T10:39:18Z ejt: only I just want to dispatch on the type of the first arg
2017-09-01T10:39:31Z ecraven: ejt: gimme a few hours ;) which Scheme do you use? this only works on mit scheme
2017-09-01T10:39:39Z ejt: and I want to bundle various generics into an interface (liek Rust's Traits)
2017-09-01T10:40:14Z ejt: Chez
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2017-09-01T10:59:34Z ecraven: nice, I just implemented half a swank for chez ;)
2017-09-01T10:59:42Z ecraven: need to look into how to make custom applicable objects in chez
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2017-09-01T11:22:01Z francogrex: jscheme or clojure?
2017-09-01T11:22:58Z ejt: I'm surprised more people don't use Chez, it seems v. high quality to me
2017-09-01T11:24:32Z ecraven: ejt: unfortunately it's missing so many libraries
2017-09-01T11:24:42Z wasamasa: francogrex: ITYM kawa vs clojure
2017-09-01T11:25:17Z wasamasa: francogrex: jscheme implements r4rs, kawa implements r7rs
2017-09-01T11:25:42Z wasamasa: francogrex: the only r4rs implementation people willingly put up with is stalin
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2017-09-01T11:34:18Z francogrex: why? r4rs is lovely, has a lot of things
2017-09-01T11:35:10Z wasamasa: why would you throw clojure in the ring then?
2017-09-01T11:35:12Z francogrex: but yeah, kawa seems cool
2017-09-01T11:35:28Z wasamasa: kawa has been touched in the last decade :>
2017-09-01T11:35:52Z francogrex: wasamasa: i had a feeling Clojure (and maybe kawa) are followup from jscheme was the precursor
2017-09-01T11:36:05Z francogrex: the father :)
2017-09-01T11:36:07Z wasamasa: I have bad news for you
2017-09-01T11:36:23Z wasamasa: clojure's BFDL comes from CL
2017-09-01T11:36:30Z wasamasa: *BDFL
2017-09-01T11:36:35Z francogrex: common lisp?
2017-09-01T11:36:37Z wasamasa: yes
2017-09-01T11:36:42Z francogrex: hmm ok
2017-09-01T11:36:51Z wasamasa: he wrote CL for a living previously and tried his hand at JVM languages
2017-09-01T11:37:00Z wasamasa: you can imagine how big the standard library is :>
2017-09-01T11:37:09Z francogrex: yes. should be
2017-09-01T11:37:35Z francogrex: well. i don't like huge standard libs
2017-09-01T11:37:53Z francogrex: i used to when i started because it makes things easier
2017-09-01T11:38:30Z francogrex: but then you realize you don't really need 10 flavours of loop doing the same thing
2017-09-01T11:38:55Z francogrex: and + you start being good at building from small blocs yourself
2017-09-01T11:39:17Z ejt: I guess it depends on the size of your project
2017-09-01T11:39:28Z ejt: a quick script will benefit from libraries
2017-09-01T11:39:43Z ejt: and large project you can invest the time into writing your own building blocks
2017-09-01T11:41:40Z ecraven: can you ever invest in writing your own sockets code? or xml / html?
2017-09-01T11:41:46Z ecraven is looking at Chez here ;)
2017-09-01T11:41:52Z wasamasa: generating xml/html isn't that bad
2017-09-01T11:42:24Z ejt: well atm I'm writing a low level async io lib for it
2017-09-01T11:42:31Z ejt: and I wrote a little regex engine last week
2017-09-01T11:42:59Z ejt: if there was no FFI though ...
2017-09-01T11:43:31Z ecraven: waswasamasa: parsing, not generating
2017-09-01T11:43:49Z ecraven: hm.. something is wrong with circe's nickname autocompletion
2017-09-01T11:44:34Z wasamasa: oh noes
2017-09-01T11:44:58Z wasamasa: yeah, parsing is tricky to get right, I spent a few days on this css selector parser
2017-09-01T11:45:20Z ecraven: wasamasa: does it parse things like @media too?
2017-09-01T11:45:30Z ecraven: that's what tripped me up last time ;)
2017-09-01T11:45:38Z wasamasa: it parses whatever you need for jquery-style stuff
2017-09-01T11:45:48Z wasamasa: @media is not part of that
2017-09-01T11:47:33Z ecraven: ah, just for jquery selectors, not for actual css generation
2017-09-01T11:47:50Z wasamasa: right, I implemented a jquery-style selection thing with it
2017-09-01T11:48:07Z wasamasa: I might port it to scheme later
2017-09-01T11:48:15Z ecraven: sounds interesting, something to replace sxpath?
2017-09-01T11:48:32Z wasamasa: well, more like compiling the AST to sxpath
2017-09-01T11:49:00Z wasamasa: similar what lxml.cssselect does for python
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2017-09-01T11:52:02Z ecraven: wasamasa: what did you write this in?
2017-09-01T11:52:09Z wasamasa: ecraven: elisp, what else :P
2017-09-01T11:52:39Z ecraven: ah, good point ;)
2017-09-01T11:52:40Z ejt: I could never get past the dynamic binding in elisp
2017-09-01T11:52:47Z ecraven: ejt: just don't use it
2017-09-01T11:52:51Z wasamasa: I actually use dynamic binding to good effect there
2017-09-01T11:53:33Z ejt: I use fluid-let a fair amount, I just don't want it for every var
2017-09-01T11:54:29Z wasamasa: see https://github.com/tali713/esxml/blob/master/esxml-query.el#L143-L147
2017-09-01T11:55:07Z ecraven: wasamasa: that table is not correctly aligned :P
2017-09-01T11:55:42Z ecraven: ah, might be eww's problem
2017-09-01T11:55:47Z wasamasa shrugs
2017-09-01T11:55:49Z ecraven: seems ok on github
2017-09-01T11:55:55Z wasamasa: I used it for https://github.com/wasamasa/nov.el
2017-09-01T11:56:39Z ecraven: nice, thanks for those
2017-09-01T11:57:03Z wasamasa: I plan to use it for my own irc bot, maybe more
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2017-09-01T13:33:55Z Riastradh: ecraven: If you mean `a Scheme number that is a Scheme real but not a Scheme rational', sure, like 1.2.
2017-09-01T13:34:17Z Riastradh: ecraven: However, if you mean `a Scheme number that represents a mathematical irrational', then no, there are no irrational numbers in standard Scheme.
2017-09-01T13:34:39Z ecraven: Riastradh: MIT/GNU Scheme says #t to both (real? 1.2) and (rational? 1.2)
2017-09-01T13:34:39Z whoman: we don't have to SHIFT for each parenthesis any more.
2017-09-01T13:35:15Z ecraven: probably because 1.2 == 12/10
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2017-09-01T13:36:27Z Riastradh: Oh, yes, sorry, I guess rational? applies to inexact rationals too.
2017-09-01T13:36:53Z ecraven: so there actually is no way to enter a number that is real? but not rational? at all in standard Scheme?
2017-09-01T13:37:07Z Riastradh: Hm.
2017-09-01T13:37:50Z ecraven: that just seems a bit strange, though I understand the reasons for it
2017-09-01T13:38:10Z Riastradh: Sounds plausible.
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2017-09-01T13:50:28Z gwatt: at least on chez scheme, (real? +Inf.0) => #t whereas (rational? +Inf.0) => #f
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2017-09-01T16:04:02Z amz3`: I created yet another parser combinator library I think it looks like GLL but without left recursive grammar support
2017-09-01T16:04:13Z amz3`: GLL 3rd implementation
2017-09-01T16:04:24Z amz3`: https://gist.github.com/amirouche/72c24b7122b7067ca4ee03e7a5ba616b
2017-09-01T16:05:01Z amz3`: It's parsing a subset of sexp, without building the ast yet
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2017-09-01T16:17:23Z ejt: amz3`: https://github.com/jthornber/thin-provisioning-tools/blob/master/functional-tests/parser-combinators.scm
2017-09-01T16:17:34Z ejt: ^^ that's a parser combinator lib I wrote the other day
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2017-09-01T17:37:17Z amz3`: ejt: tx!
2017-09-01T17:40:48Z amz3`: ejt: sadly I don't understand monads as of yet
2017-09-01T17:41:12Z amz3`: I think it's good idea to have the state contain the line/col information
2017-09-01T17:41:29Z amz3`: or maybe not
2017-09-01T17:41:30Z amz3`: not sure
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2017-09-01T18:05:01Z ejt: amz3`: I don't think you need to understand monads to use the combinators
2017-09-01T18:06:03Z ejt: there are examples of using them: https://github.com/jthornber/thin-provisioning-tools/blob/master/functional-tests/regex.scm#L251
2017-09-01T18:06:06Z ejt: or
2017-09-01T18:06:24Z ejt: https://github.com/jthornber/thin-provisioning-tools/blob/master/functional-tests/run-tests#L105
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2017-09-01T18:44:44Z amz3`: ejt: yes you are right, that said I need to understand monads to understand how both implementation differs
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2017-09-02T04:55:15Z xieyuheng: in the example (parameterize ((radix 16)) (radix)), (radix) is not a proper tail call ?
2017-09-02T04:57:25Z xieyuheng: dynamic scope seems in conflict with proper tail call.
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2017-09-02T12:04:52Z wasamasa: wat
2017-09-02T12:05:28Z wasamasa: parameterize rebinds a *variable*, what does that even have to do with *function* calls
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2017-09-02T12:19:33Z gwatt: wasamasa: that asker is long gone
2017-09-02T12:19:56Z wasamasa: I can still ask you :P
2017-09-02T12:20:17Z gwatt: don't look at me, I know how it works
2017-09-02T12:21:20Z wasamasa: ok, if radix were holding a lambda, it would make a bit more sense
2017-09-02T12:21:46Z wasamasa: but I still don't see how (let ((foo (lambda ...))) (foo)) makes it a tail call
2017-09-02T12:22:11Z gwatt: you mean, makes it *not* a tail call?
2017-09-02T12:23:25Z wasamasa: or rather, makes it a tail call worth discussing
2017-09-02T12:23:29Z gwatt: sure
2017-09-02T12:23:49Z wasamasa: sure, if you define it as call to a specific function in the return position, it is
2017-09-02T12:24:05Z wasamasa: but that is only interesting for functions calling themselves or a set of functions calling each other
2017-09-02T12:25:00Z gwatt: I'm not going to worry about it.
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2017-09-02T16:01:07Z ski: i suppose `parameterize' modifies a dynamic context, and so the body isn't in tail position
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2017-09-02T18:07:28Z francogrex: is there any real difference bewteen using: (define add (lambda (x y) (+ x y))) and (define (add x y) (+ x y)) ?
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2017-09-02T18:07:46Z francogrex: i've seen the former in older books
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2017-09-02T18:11:14Z wasamasa: the former allows you binding a closure to a name
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2017-09-02T18:11:40Z wasamasa: the latter has only been properly supported as of R5RS or so
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2017-09-02T18:13:17Z Riastradh: francogrex: No semantic difference.
2017-09-02T18:13:36Z Riastradh: francogrex: Sometimes there is a pragmatic difference for debugging information.
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2017-09-02T18:14:13Z Riastradh: wasamasa: No later than R3RS, i.e. three decades ago.
2017-09-02T18:14:19Z wasamasa: huh
2017-09-02T18:14:43Z stratotanker: hello, someone can help? I'd like to known what is the best way to catch multiple keys
2017-09-02T18:14:44Z francogrex: yes must be before R5 because i have jscheme r4 and is ok
2017-09-02T18:15:10Z wasamasa: then there's the case where you have something like case-lambda and want to bind it to a name
2017-09-02T18:15:14Z wasamasa: then the former is necessary
2017-09-02T18:15:24Z wasamasa: but I'm starting to doubt it's needed for closures...
2017-09-02T18:15:28Z francogrex: so the former is closure advantage only
2017-09-02T18:16:04Z francogrex: you can test
2017-09-02T18:16:11Z francogrex: see if it's a closure
2017-09-02T18:16:14Z Riastradh: No later than R2RS, i.e. over three decades ago.
2017-09-02T18:16:17Z wasamasa: the idea being (let ((foo ...)) (define bar (lambda (baz) (foo)))))
2017-09-02T18:16:30Z Riastradh: No later than RRS, i.e. nearly four decades ago.
2017-09-02T18:16:37Z stratotanker: I learn about (catch #t) so, I think is possible to match the key in the handler procedure but.. does anyone know a more elegant method?
2017-09-02T18:16:40Z wasamasa: which I've seen a few times for memoizing functions
2017-09-02T18:17:04Z Riastradh: But I don't think it appeared in the original 1975 report on Scheme.
2017-09-02T18:17:05Z wasamasa: alternatively, (define foo (memoize (lambda ...)))
2017-09-02T18:17:19Z Riastradh: wasamasa: So you're right, it is a bit of a neologism -- it probably wasn't invented much before 1978.
2017-09-02T18:17:56Z wasamasa: then there are people who prefer the former because it makes clearer what's going on
2017-09-02T18:17:59Z francogrex: but wait if it's anything like common lisp, the former is indeed useful for closure
2017-09-02T18:18:31Z wasamasa: I think I've seen that in TSPL
2017-09-02T18:20:00Z wasamasa: stratotanker: what software are you speaking about?
2017-09-02T18:20:29Z stratotanker: wasamasa scheme in general
2017-09-02T18:20:52Z wasamasa: stratotanker: scheme in general doesn't know of binding keys
2017-09-02T18:21:39Z stratotanker: so the only way is to use a conditional in the catch handler?
2017-09-02T18:21:53Z wasamasa: fess up, what are you using?
2017-09-02T18:22:00Z stratotanker: guile
2017-09-02T18:22:30Z wasamasa: and what are you scripting with it?
2017-09-02T18:22:48Z wasamasa: a window manager?
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2017-09-02T18:27:10Z stratotanker: I only want to known what is the more elegant way to use catch with multiple keys, no matter what scripting for
2017-09-02T18:28:17Z stratotanker: I'm new to scheme, I like it and I want become a good coder :)
2017-09-02T18:29:24Z wasamasa: apparently you're speaking of https://www.gnu.org/software/guile/manual/html_node/Catch.html
2017-09-02T18:29:34Z wasamasa: this is, as surprising as it may be, a guile-specific thing
2017-09-02T18:31:15Z wasamasa: it looks sort of like elisp's throw/catch construct which suffers from the same limitation
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2017-09-02T18:33:25Z wasamasa: what I'd try to do is keep it to one key and use the args passed to it to tell what to do next
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2017-09-02T18:34:06Z stratotanker: wasamasa i thought the scheme language was the same in all interpreters, I'm wrong?
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2017-09-02T18:34:43Z wasamasa: the scheme languages exists in several standards and is minimalistic to the degree that all implementations ship with their own extensions to it
2017-09-02T18:34:51Z wasamasa: it's hard to write portable scheme code for that reason
2017-09-02T18:35:27Z stratotanker: wasamasa this is not a good thing :(
2017-09-02T18:36:00Z wasamasa: incidentally, I'm trying to attempt the latter with the latest revision of the standard because it seems it covers just enough for writing an interpreter
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2017-09-02T18:37:19Z wasamasa: the linked manual page mentions how to write a handler accepting all kinds of keys, you could use it in combination with #t as key
2017-09-02T18:37:32Z wasamasa: but it's not the same as a list of accepted keys because it will accept anything...
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2017-09-02T20:44:39Z stratotanker: back again, someone can point me to an example of with-throw-handler? I cannot understand how to use it :(
2017-09-02T20:45:35Z jcowan_: stratotanker: What Scheme are you using
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2017-09-02T20:45:57Z stratotanker: jcowan_ I'm using guile scheme
2017-09-02T20:47:14Z jcowan: You use it when you want to intercept an exception and then have the choice to resume the routine at the point where it did the throw, instead of continuing out the with-throw-handler.
2017-09-02T20:47:41Z jcowan: Are you sure you are in that situation?  If not, you probably want catch, which is like the try-catch of other languages.
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2017-09-02T20:49:04Z stratotanker: jcowan, that's my situation: I'm working with dynamic FFI. I have a C function returning a pointer to a dynamically allocated pointer. I need to cleanup memory in case of exception.
2017-09-02T20:49:56Z stratotanker: *dinamically allocated memory, sorry
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2017-09-02T20:50:27Z jcowan: For cleanup on the way out, use dynamic-wind instead.  with-throw-handler is only for truly continuable exceptions:  "Hey boss, there's a problem, what do you want me to do?"
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2017-09-02T20:50:51Z stratotanker: thank's jcowan
2017-09-02T20:54:53Z stratotanker: jcowan can I use dynamic-wind without in_guard?
2017-09-02T20:55:53Z jcowan: dynamic-wind is standard Scheme, should be supported everywhere
2017-09-02T20:59:44Z stratotanker: Sorry, I said badly. I mean: the form is (dynamic-wind inguard thunk outguard). Can I use dynamic-wind without the inguard handler?
2017-09-02T21:00:15Z jcowan: No, but just do (lambda () #t) or something
2017-09-02T21:00:30Z jcowan: or just +
2017-09-02T21:01:31Z jcowan: Dynamic-wind is not quite unwind-protect, but it behaves about the same as long as you are not messing with call/cc to jump in and out of the protected area at random
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2017-09-02T21:06:58Z stratotanker: jcowan okay, it's fine. Many thank's
2017-09-02T21:08:15Z stratotanker: scheme language is very strong :)
2017-09-02T21:08:51Z jcowan: Indeed it is!
2017-09-02T21:08:58Z stratotanker: :)
2017-09-02T21:09:42Z wasamasa: I wonder how R7RS exception handling is like
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2017-09-02T21:51:37Z amz3`: T+1
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2017-09-02T22:38:11Z jcowan: wasamasa: There is raise, raise-continuable, with-exception-handler, and guard
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2017-09-03T07:12:47Z stratotanker: Hi, there is a procedure to look if a character is available on a file port?
2017-09-03T07:14:04Z wasamasa: peek-char
2017-09-03T07:20:07Z stratotanker: wasamasa it's also non blocking?
2017-09-03T07:20:31Z wasamasa: read the docs for that
2017-09-03T07:21:17Z stratotanker: i read this: file:///home/christian/Development/doc/guile/guile-manual-2.x/www.gnu.org/software/guile/manual/html_node/Textual-I_002fO.html#Textual-I_002fO
2017-09-03T07:21:39Z wasamasa: on file ports rather
2017-09-03T07:22:08Z wasamasa: meh, looks like guile uses the r6rs ones
2017-09-03T07:22:15Z stratotanker: ups sorry local link, => https://www.gnu.org/software/guile/manual/html_node/Textual-I_002fO.html
2017-09-03T07:22:44Z wasamasa: so lookahead-char
2017-09-03T07:23:50Z wasamasa: and it states that it may block
2017-09-03T07:24:05Z stratotanker: lookahead-char is like read-char, and in read-char: Reads from input-port, blocking as necessary, until a complete character is available from input-port, or until an end of file is reached.
2017-09-03T07:24:54Z wasamasa: question: if it didn't block, what would it return if no character is available?
2017-09-03T07:25:39Z stratotanker: good question :)
2017-09-03T07:26:17Z stratotanker: So, maybe I'm going in a wrong way
2017-09-03T07:26:28Z ecraven: most schemes I've met have some (implementation-specific) way to detect whether reading from a port would block
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2017-09-03T07:31:57Z stratotanker: I'm writing a textual interface program. I read commands and parameters from default-input-port. The program should run in normal or scripting mode so a line can contain multiple commands and parameters.
2017-09-03T07:33:18Z stratotanker: I work reading one character at time, skipping separator characters
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2017-09-03T07:35:15Z stratotanker: I read about get-line, but there is a way to read characters from a string like a port?
2017-09-03T07:35:34Z wasamasa: turn the string into a port
2017-09-03T07:35:43Z wasamasa: I wrote a call-with-input-string procedure for that
2017-09-03T07:37:46Z stratotanker: wasamasa could you please explain?
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2017-09-03T08:03:02Z ecraven: stratotanker:  look at with-input-from-string
2017-09-03T08:03:09Z ecraven: guile has that
2017-09-03T08:03:17Z ecraven: maybe also call-with-input-string
2017-09-03T08:03:40Z ecraven: or open-input-string
2017-09-03T08:04:53Z stratotanker: so nice!!!
2017-09-03T08:05:18Z stratotanker: thanks!
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2017-09-03T08:32:54Z wasamasa: http://ix.io/zzt
2017-09-03T08:33:10Z wasamasa: here's a simple implementation without error handling
2017-09-03T08:34:01Z wasamasa: R7RS only for obvious reasons, but it would work with CHICKEN, too
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2017-09-03T10:49:31Z wasamasa: meh, why does case use eqv?
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2017-09-03T11:30:53Z pjb: wasamasa: to be efficient.
2017-09-03T11:31:24Z wasamasa: at least kawa warns me that comparing string literals ain't gonna work
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2017-09-03T11:34:46Z pjb: On the other hand, in CL, you can make it work :-) (let ((key #1="foo")) (case key ((#1#) 'yay) (otherwise 'nope))) #| --> yay |#
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2017-09-03T11:36:42Z pjb: But it's still dangerous, because of literal coalescing.  So: (let ((a "foo") (b #1="foo")) (case a ((#1#) 'yay) (otherwise 'nope))) could return yay (if file-compiled and literal coalescing optimization is implemented and performed) or nope otherwise…
2017-09-03T11:38:17Z zaoqi created zKanren: cKanren without halting
2017-09-03T11:39:40Z wasamasa: pjb: ._.
2017-09-03T11:40:07Z pjb: So, yes, the warning is the best option.
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2017-09-03T12:07:05Z wasamasa: hm, I think I've found a race condition in cyclone
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2017-09-03T12:51:32Z jcowan: pjb: I don't see how literal coalescing could affect that example.  Literal *decoalescing* could affect it, if any compiler implements such a pessimization
2017-09-03T12:53:25Z jcowan: R7RS explicitly forbids cycles in code so that compilers don't have to break them, so #1=(begin (display #\x) #1#) is an error, but is silent about dag-ish code like this
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2017-09-03T13:11:45Z pjb: jcowan: with coalescing you get yay, without you get nope. (for my second example).  And indeed, both CL and r7rs don't forbid structure sharing in code (they couldn't, symbols themselves are already shared reference everywhere!).
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2017-09-03T13:35:06Z jcowan: pjb: Ah, I see.  But actually your second example is an error, so it might print anything or nothing
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2017-09-03T13:54:55Z wasamasa: I've also found that cyclone doesn't support error and friends
2017-09-03T13:55:33Z wasamasa: which is somewhat weird because that should be a matter of using define-record-type and raise the resulting object when encountering problems during read/file operations
2017-09-03T14:02:26Z pjb: jcowan: why is it an error (other than s/otherwise/else/ in scheme)?
2017-09-03T14:09:03Z wasamasa: apparently cyclone went the SICP way and error just raises a list of the message and the irritants
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2017-09-03T14:23:45Z jcowan: pjb: I'm not sure *why*, already in R4RS it says that the datums tested against must be distinct
2017-09-03T14:25:19Z pjb: "foo" and else are distinct.
2017-09-03T14:29:51Z jcowan: sorry, I'm not making much sense
2017-09-03T14:29:55Z jcowan: slept badly
2017-09-03T14:31:27Z jcowan: wasamasa: That doesn't actually violate R7RS, which does not require that error-objects be distinct, though it makes error-object? rather imprecise
2017-09-03T14:32:25Z wasamasa: jcowan: well, I was somewhat irritated it doesn't export error-object?, error-object-message and error-object-irritants
2017-09-03T14:32:37Z jcowan: Yes, that is wrong
2017-09-03T14:32:58Z wasamasa: I've found a more serious issue though, I'm getting random corruption in program output
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2017-09-03T14:33:09Z jcowan: They could be represented trivially as list?, car, and cdr
2017-09-03T14:34:27Z wasamasa: as in, I enter xxxx into my repl and get xxxxv back
2017-09-03T14:34:50Z wasamasa: yey, C
2017-09-03T14:35:43Z wasamasa: not reproducibly even
2017-09-03T14:51:28Z pjb: wasamasa: (define xxxx 'xxxxv) could explain it.
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2017-09-04T18:14:07Z ecraven: Riastradh: are there any known differences between interpreted and compiled code on MIT/GNU Scheme? I have some code (trying to port git@github.com:epsil/gll.git) that infinite loops when interpreted, but works fine when compiled
2017-09-04T18:14:49Z Riastradh: Heh.
2017-09-04T18:14:50Z Riastradh: There are some.
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2017-09-05T02:17:01Z jethier: ecraven: thanks!
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2017-09-05T04:50:49Z BW^-: a bit ot but #algorithms is asleep:
2017-09-05T04:50:50Z BW^-: for dynamic digraph reachabiity (single/few-source), what libraries/implementations  exist out there?
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2017-09-05T05:04:29Z BW^-: maaaybe this is something https://github.com/DimitrisAndreou/flexigraph/tree/master/src/gr/forth/ics/graph/algo/transitivity
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2017-09-05T07:56:30Z codingquark: Hello! I was talking about MIT's class on SICP over at #emacs, and they told me that the course was replaced with Python for some reason. What was the reason?
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2017-09-05T08:10:32Z wasamasa: there is a good write-up from the authors of SICP
2017-09-05T08:10:55Z wasamasa: tl;dr: programming these days isn't nearly as much as constructing things from first principles but rather plugging together ready-made libraries
2017-09-05T08:11:13Z wasamasa: for that task a course where you do robotics with python is more appropriate
2017-09-05T08:11:24Z codingquark: wasamasa: on SICP's home page?
2017-09-05T08:11:54Z C-Keen: wasamasa: unless you need to maintain it for half a century then you happily build from first principles :)
2017-09-05T08:12:44Z wasamasa: ok, not from them, but still official enough: https://people.eecs.berkeley.edu/~bh/sicp.html
2017-09-05T08:13:16Z codingquark: I like that title, TBH.
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2017-09-05T08:34:40Z codingquark: Oh, thanks :)
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2017-09-05T11:42:51Z ijp: wasamasa: you are probably looking for http://www.gigamonkeys.com/code-quarterly/2011/hal-abelson/
2017-09-05T11:44:11Z codingquark: Oh, that will be useful for me!
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2017-09-05T12:04:12Z jonaslund: having had the unfortune to try to teach practical novices programming in java i can totally agree to parts of it, perhaps for other reasons though
2017-09-05T12:05:15Z jonaslund: what C/C++ had a bit wrong and Java got totally wrong was to try to wrap _execution_ into other things rather than the other way around
2017-09-05T12:05:42Z jonaslund: first thing a noice sees with java is a ton of syntax that has to be atleast partially deciphered before witnessing any execution taking place
2017-09-05T12:06:17Z jonaslund: it's a lot of syntactical rote learning and that primes peoples mind for programming in the entirely wrong way
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2017-09-05T12:07:42Z jonaslund: where i differ in mind however is what's most important
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2017-09-05T12:07:57Z LeoNerd: Have you read Execution in the Kingdom of Nouns ?
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2017-09-05T12:08:10Z jonaslund: for me, the REPL is the most important thing
2017-09-05T12:08:29Z jonaslund: that's what made a whole generation of programmers from using C64's
2017-09-05T12:09:02Z jonaslund: we had to put in a JS module in that Java course
2017-09-05T12:09:25Z jonaslund: so i turned things around a bit and we spent most of the first day just typing things in the repl
2017-09-05T12:09:34Z jonaslund: reasoning about calculation
2017-09-05T12:10:08Z jonaslund: I think some of the people actually learnt more that day than they had in the first 3 weeks of Java
2017-09-05T12:21:19Z jonaslund: LeoNerd: I might've seen it before, not entirely sure. Luckily Java 8 got some sugar but this is more of a secondary issue since for the very fresh programming minds any extra syntax (usually from verbose static type systems) is in the way of learning what execution is about
2017-09-05T12:21:39Z LeoNerd: Yeah, Java 8 isn't too bad now. They have the lightweight lambda things
2017-09-05T12:21:48Z LeoNerd: I forget if they can do mutable closures though
2017-09-05T12:21:54Z LeoNerd: Without mutable closures, you're still *kinda* limited
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2017-09-05T13:50:51Z qu1j0t3: Java 8's lambdas still have shitty library support. If you want lambdas with useful libraries and HOFs, just use Scala. (and yes both support 'mutable closures' if i understand what you mean)
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2017-09-05T14:16:31Z jcowan: qu1j0t3: Except that Scala is painful, or more accurately, allows your cow orkers to create code that is extremely painful to debug or change.
2017-09-05T14:20:14Z gwatt: it's not too bad
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2017-09-05T14:42:43Z qu1j0t3 shrugs
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2017-09-05T14:43:10Z qu1j0t3: jcowan: but the point of comparison was Java, and seriously ... why would you use Java when Scala has existed since 20034.
2017-09-05T14:43:13Z qu1j0t3: -4
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2017-09-05T14:44:55Z qu1j0t3: jcowan: I write functional Scala where possible. I don't think the record of conventional Java being 'easy to debug or change' is that great, under the usual regime of mutable state and imperative blecch
2017-09-05T14:45:32Z qu1j0t3: I use Scala specifically because Java is terrible to work with
2017-09-05T14:45:37Z qu1j0t3: (relatively)
2017-09-05T14:47:58Z pjb: exit Scala, enter Kotlin.
2017-09-05T14:48:25Z pjb: Don't worry, until you use Common Lisp, there will always be an unextinguishable flow of new programming languages…
2017-09-05T14:50:20Z qu1j0t3: pjb: agreed, there will always be an unextinguishable flow, the mystery is why people don't pay attention.
2017-09-05T14:50:37Z qu1j0t3: there are negative reasons why I would use Kotlin over Scala. the kotlin thing is baffling.
2017-09-05T14:51:01Z qu1j0t3: it's like Go. Zero steps forward, three steps back.
2017-09-05T14:51:24Z qu1j0t3: anyway, the real news is Eta, Haskell on JVM, now.
2017-09-05T14:51:33Z qu1j0t3: if anything should kill Scala, that's it :)
2017-09-05T14:52:40Z gwatt: I think the android support for kotlin is a big bonus
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2017-09-05T15:02:25Z jcowan: qu1j0t3: Oh yes, I was not at all comparing Scala to Java favorably to the latter, God forbid.
2017-09-05T15:03:34Z qu1j0t3 nods
2017-09-05T15:03:51Z jcowan: Java is the Basic of the age
2017-09-05T15:04:03Z qu1j0t3: jcowan: I get this 'but they'll write impenetrable scala' and i've weighed it up a million times and you know what? education matters whatever you do.
2017-09-05T15:04:23Z qu1j0t3: jcowan: If I train Scala people i'll be teaching them FP. period.
2017-09-05T15:04:31Z jcowan: Agree entirely
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2017-09-05T15:05:14Z jcowan: I am speaking out of my bad experience trying to maintain a Scala/Akka application that had been written with maximum cleverness by a cow orker working alone in Ukraine.  He was a brilliant programmer and that was a big problem.
2017-09-05T15:05:17Z qu1j0t3: then they can carry that understanding to Eta or whatever comes down the pike in future. but Java 8, lolno
2017-09-05T15:05:51Z gwatt: jcowan: heavy use of scalaz?
2017-09-05T15:06:08Z qu1j0t3: gwatt: ideally yes
2017-09-05T15:06:13Z jcowan: gwatt: That too
2017-09-05T15:06:28Z qu1j0t3: jcowan: Well Akka is deeply problematic PERIOD.
2017-09-05T15:08:38Z gwatt: My company discourages the use of scalaz, and probably cats too.
2017-09-05T15:09:51Z qu1j0t3: that's absurd.
2017-09-05T15:10:26Z gwatt shrugs
2017-09-05T15:10:33Z gwatt: I haven't looked into either honestly
2017-09-05T15:11:10Z gwatt: I just know we had a bunch of contractors who initially created the codebase
2017-09-05T15:11:24Z gwatt: and they made heavy use of scalaz that no one could understand
2017-09-05T15:12:11Z qu1j0t3: why do people just sit there and say 'i don't understand this'
2017-09-05T15:12:16Z qu1j0t3: like, why not learn something?
2017-09-05T15:12:36Z qu1j0t3: scalaz is one of the most useful libraries for scala and if you ban that, are you going to ban other pure functional code like argonaut and http4s?
2017-09-05T15:12:53Z qu1j0t3: such a policy makes it N x harder to do good work
2017-09-05T15:13:10Z gwatt: You have no idea how much trouble we had trying to find scala programmers
2017-09-05T15:13:12Z qu1j0t3: ugh, anyway, this is probably now off topic, but let's ban some SRFI's
2017-09-05T15:13:22Z qu1j0t3: gwatt: myth. train them.
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2017-09-05T15:14:26Z gwatt: That happened, it was still a struggle
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2017-09-05T15:15:17Z gwatt: Also, location may have played a part. We're in central Indiana which is afaict mostly a .NET world
2017-09-05T15:15:37Z qu1j0t3: ultimately this isn't a matter of what skills you happen to have, but attitude, isn't it? ime
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2017-09-05T15:15:58Z gwatt: We hired contractors from SF, Spain, and Poland to fill gaps
2017-09-05T15:16:09Z qu1j0t3: there are lots of scala people in USA but i guess they were too expensive?
2017-09-05T15:16:20Z gwatt: Could be.
2017-09-05T15:16:39Z qu1j0t3: my rate is ridiculously low at the moment, but that's because i don't have to deal with 'scalaz not allowed' lol
2017-09-05T15:17:08Z qu1j0t3: on that note
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2017-09-05T15:25:22Z jcowan: I don't think there are lots of Scala people in the US either.  Certainly not in NYC
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2017-09-05T15:27:46Z wasamasa: we have scala people here, they mostly use akka, but keep away from scalaz
2017-09-05T15:28:08Z wasamasa: I do frontend stuff though, so I'm just an observer :>
2017-09-05T15:28:25Z wasamasa: sometimes they say funny stuff like that they consider scala to be more mainstream than clojure
2017-09-05T15:28:36Z wasamasa: or that it's hard to find scala developers willing to do frontend work
2017-09-05T15:29:17Z gwatt: I think that's a fairly common backend attitude
2017-09-05T15:29:46Z gwatt: Thinking that frontend code is beneath them.
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2017-09-05T15:45:49Z ijp: rudybot: I hear that if you are sitting down, then backend is beneath you
2017-09-05T15:46:12Z rudybot: ijp: No escape Beneath The 12 Mile Reef, which is actually pretty good, first time I'm viewing.
2017-09-05T15:51:42Z qu1j0t3 is yet to find a use case for Akka, but any non trivial Scala program benefits from Scalaz
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2017-09-05T16:58:45Z jcowan: qu1j0t3: Well, I am a fan of the actor model, and I like Akka's actor trees, so I don't object to its use in principle
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2017-09-05T19:54:06Z stratotanker: Hello, I'm back with another question: there is a way to assign a value to a procedure argument like a we can within a C pointer? I mean, the caller procedure see changes in the variable?
2017-09-05T19:54:32Z wasamasa: box something mutable
2017-09-05T19:54:56Z wasamasa: oleg uses closures to emulate C pointers
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2017-09-05T19:59:31Z stratotanker: sorry wasamasa, but I'm new to scheme, I don't know about "mutable" :(
2017-09-05T20:00:04Z wasamasa: vectors and records are popular, closures also work
2017-09-05T20:03:28Z daviid: stratotanker: guile manual has an example of this, which you can use in any scheme ... https://www.gnu.org/software/guile/manual/guile.html#Shared-Variable
2017-09-05T20:03:39Z wasamasa: http://ix.io/zCj
2017-09-05T20:05:10Z wasamasa: https://letoverlambda.com/index.cl/guest/chap2.html gets into more detail, but with CL
2017-09-05T20:11:39Z pjb: stratotanker: have a look at: http://informatimago.com/articles/usenet.html#C-like-pointers-in-Lisp
2017-09-05T20:11:52Z pjb: stratotanker: (this is easily converted into scheme).
2017-09-05T20:12:29Z stratotanker: Seem not to be my case, and I'm not sure it's possible to do what i want, please take this https://pastebin.com/kkMvKtQF
2017-09-05T20:13:06Z stratotanker: You can see the proc change it's argument using set!
2017-09-05T20:13:29Z stratotanker: but this not reflect to var
2017-09-05T20:13:58Z stratotanker: this is what I want to do, modify var from inside proc
2017-09-05T20:14:23Z daviid: stratotanker: look at my above paste please
2017-09-05T20:17:27Z stratotanker: daviid I read your paste, but it seem to modify a binding local and return result
2017-09-05T20:19:25Z pjb: stratotanker: http://paste.lisp.org/display/355136
2017-09-05T20:21:25Z pjb: stratotanker: but you should be advised not to do that.  Otherwise you will fall back to all the problems you have in C…
2017-09-05T20:22:41Z stratotanker: pjb very advanced for me...
2017-09-05T20:23:00Z pjb: That's also another reason not to use it!
2017-09-05T20:23:35Z pjb: stratotanker: instead, the pattern is to use the result of the function: (define (f2 v) (* 2 v))  (let ((b 33)) (set! b (f2 b)) b)
2017-09-05T20:23:52Z pjb: Then f2 is a pure function that can be easily debugged and validated.
2017-09-05T20:24:00Z stratotanker: It's better to make a step backward and learn more about basics of scheme
2017-09-05T20:24:17Z pjb: Indeed.
2017-09-05T20:24:32Z stratotanker: I still have a C mind :(
2017-09-05T20:25:16Z stratotanker: Anyway, many thanks to all
2017-09-05T20:25:19Z pjb: In C too you can avoid * in parameter lists.  int f2(int v){ return 2*v; }  { int b=33;  b=f2(b); }  instead of f2(&b); …
2017-09-05T20:29:58Z stratotanker: pjb, yes I'ts common in C to use * in parameters (also **) and use return value as the status
2017-09-05T20:30:03Z wasamasa: http://okmij.org/ftp/cpp-digest/index.html#pointer-closure
2017-09-05T20:30:27Z wasamasa: don't do that though
2017-09-05T20:30:36Z wasamasa: just use records if you want to pass a mutable box
2017-09-05T20:32:37Z wasamasa: generally, oleg's website is a nice collection of cool tricks most of which you wouldn't put into code you plan to maintain :P
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2017-09-05T20:37:05Z stratotanker: I prefer to change procedure form and maintain a clean code
2017-09-05T20:37:40Z stratotanker: thank's to all!
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2017-09-05T21:07:29Z wasamasa: damnit, I just ran into a scheme implementation making right of undefined evaluation order
2017-09-05T21:07:33Z wasamasa: *use
2017-09-05T21:11:12Z jcowan: Chibi implements RTL
2017-09-05T21:11:36Z wasamasa: cyclone apparently does that for map
2017-09-05T21:11:54Z jcowan: http://trac.sacrideo.us/wg/wiki/ArgumentOrder
2017-09-05T21:11:55Z wasamasa: this is somewhat inconvenient as I need to do things sequentually and keep the last result
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2017-09-05T21:12:19Z jcowan: wasamasa: That's what begin is for; it is guaranteed to be ltr
2017-09-05T21:12:55Z wasamasa: what about for-each?
2017-09-05T21:13:10Z wasamasa: the thing is that I'm implementing a begin-like construct :>
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2017-09-05T21:25:14Z nisstyre: wasamasa: you can implement begin using lambda
2017-09-05T21:25:20Z nisstyre: that would have to be a macro
2017-09-05T21:25:34Z wasamasa: yeah, no thanks
2017-09-05T21:25:48Z nisstyre:  ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
2017-09-05T21:28:15Z wasamasa: I also found some weirdness in foment regarding read/write and newlines
2017-09-05T21:28:37Z wasamasa: according to the test failures it uses \r\n instead of \n
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2017-09-05T21:48:12Z whoman torches all begin/end stmts
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2017-09-05T22:12:44Z wasamasa: I wrote a minimal example, but am not sure whether it's a violation of R7RS: http://ix.io/zCt/scm
2017-09-05T22:13:09Z wasamasa: the standard speaks of escaping backslashes and double quotes with a backslash, but is silent on end of lines
2017-09-05T22:13:42Z wasamasa: jcowan: have you covered that one, too?
2017-09-05T22:15:40Z wasamasa: smaller example: http://ix.io/zCu/scm
2017-09-05T22:16:59Z jcowan: wasamasa: That's just the way Chibi's REPL displays strings
2017-09-05T22:17:05Z jcowan: which is out of scope
2017-09-05T22:18:31Z jcowan: But yes, there is no way to escape an EOL in R7RS.  Nobody proposed it AFAIR
2017-09-05T22:21:53Z jcowan: No, I'm wrong: ticket #183 requires it
2017-09-05T22:22:32Z jcowan: and it's there in section 6.7
2017-09-05T22:24:04Z jcowan: and it's implemented in Chibi: type "foo\<newline>bar<newline>" to the REPL and chibi will output "foobar\n"
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2017-09-05T22:30:22Z wasamasa: well, all scheme's except foment do it that way
2017-09-05T22:30:39Z wasamasa: it makes sense to me, if read turns \n into a newline, why shouldn't write turn a newline into \n?
2017-09-05T22:30:55Z wasamasa: with all schemes I mean all the r7rs ones I've tried
2017-09-05T22:31:18Z wasamasa: that's chibi, kawa, CHICKEN, gauche, sagittarius and cyclone
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2017-09-05T22:35:35Z whoman: guile ?
2017-09-05T22:35:52Z wasamasa: guile doesn't really support r7rs
2017-09-05T22:36:03Z aeth: wasamasa: I might not do that in cl-scheme. I have to write my own string reader, but I don't necessarily have to write my own string printer.
2017-09-05T22:36:30Z wasamasa: aeth: I read the standard as that you have to escape backslashes and double-quotes (and non-ascii symbols)
2017-09-05T22:36:36Z wasamasa: aeth: so that would be required either way
2017-09-05T22:36:50Z whoman: ah
2017-09-05T22:37:32Z aeth: wasamasa: CL escapes backslashes and double-quotes, but does not support \n, \t, etc.
2017-09-05T22:38:12Z aeth: What makes cl-scheme doable is reusing as much of the base CL as possible.
2017-09-05T22:39:26Z wasamasa: hmk
2017-09-05T22:40:24Z whoman: '' ?
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2017-09-05T22:45:02Z jcowan: Hey ho, alaric!
2017-09-05T22:45:08Z alaricsp: 'lo jcowan
2017-09-05T22:45:17Z jcowan: Thanks for doing the preso
2017-09-05T22:45:28Z alaricsp: Thanks for doing the slides! All I had to do was read 'em out :-)
2017-09-05T22:45:38Z alaricsp: No fisticuffs broke out, so I'd call it a success
2017-09-05T22:45:59Z jcowan: Were there no Racketeers there to reply to the what-about-Racket question?
2017-09-05T22:46:47Z alaricsp: There were, but no conclusion was reached, nobody seems to know why Racket renamed
2017-09-05T22:47:26Z wasamasa: wait, what
2017-09-05T22:47:47Z wasamasa: racket renamed?
2017-09-05T22:47:51Z alaricsp: Somebody said it was because of set-car!, but the overall conclusion was "multiple reasons"
2017-09-05T22:48:03Z alaricsp: wasamasa: Well, it used to be PLT Scheme and DrScheme and all that, then it became Racket, a while back
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2017-09-05T22:51:42Z jcowan: a5 https://racket-lang.org/new-name.html <-- explains pretty well
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2017-09-05T22:53:18Z jcowan: What surprises me is that people are still asking this question seven years later.
2017-09-05T22:53:52Z aeth: "Foo Scheme" or "foo-scheme" is a bad name for a Scheme anyway
2017-09-05T22:53:52Z jcowan: I think it was announced on April 1, 2010, so some people didn't believe it at the time
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2017-09-05T22:58:27Z jcowan: I think pretty much all other Schemes have the word "Scheme" in their formal name
2017-09-05T22:58:50Z wasamasa: hm, guess I'll work around that one and replace newline by displaying "\\n"
2017-09-05T22:59:24Z jcowan: not Cyclone, not Bigloo, not Guile
2017-09-05T22:59:41Z jcowan: not SISC, though the second S stands for Scheme
2017-09-05T23:00:05Z wasamasa: what about Gauche?
2017-09-05T23:00:11Z jcowan: not Foment, not Larceny
2017-09-05T23:00:13Z wasamasa: it has "A Scheme Implementation" as subtitle
2017-09-05T23:00:13Z ijp: not SCM, but then again
2017-09-05T23:00:48Z jcowan: not Ypsilon, not STklos
2017-09-05T23:01:00Z jcowan: I think SCM counts as having Scheme in its name
2017-09-05T23:02:02Z jcowan: not S7 (the S has nothing to do with Scheme)
2017-09-05T23:02:17Z jcowan: in SIOD the S stands for Scheme
2017-09-05T23:02:49Z alaricsp: :-)
2017-09-05T23:02:54Z jcowan: not XLisp, not librep, not Llava
2017-09-05T23:02:58Z jcowan: SXM is uncertain
2017-09-05T23:03:30Z jcowan: not FemtoLisp, not Oaklisp, not Owl Lisp
2017-09-05T23:03:36Z Riastradh: Gambit
2017-09-05T23:03:49Z jcowan: The home page calls it "Gambit Scheme"
2017-09-05T23:03:59Z Riastradh: Nobody calls it that, though!
2017-09-05T23:04:49Z jcowan: Nobody calls Mexico the United Mexican States or Estados Unidos Mexicanos, but that's its formal name.
2017-09-05T23:09:12Z Riastradh: OK, then: T
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2017-09-05T23:14:28Z alaricsp: Good one
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2017-09-06T14:13:53Z jaseemabid: What does a6le mean? Google returns nothing useful.
2017-09-06T14:14:12Z C-Keen: what's the context?
2017-09-06T14:14:34Z jaseemabid: Chez scheme architecture
2017-09-06T14:14:53Z C-Keen: arm A6 little endian maybe?
2017-09-06T14:16:07Z gwatt: C-Keen: actually amd64 linux
2017-09-06T14:16:53Z jaseemabid: Ah. I wish that was said somewhere in the source. Thanks folks.
2017-09-06T14:17:22Z C-Keen: gwatt: ah thanks for the correction
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2017-09-06T14:19:03Z gwatt: I'm not actually sure what the e is for, but only linux has it
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2017-09-07T04:46:54Z bigdaddytank: akkad: Alright so Gauche, is it pretty decent for scripting?
2017-09-07T04:47:14Z akkad: yes. pretty fast for being interpreted
2017-09-07T04:47:31Z akkad: compared to say sagittarius or the others
2017-09-07T04:47:46Z bigdaddytank: does it follow regular lisp/scheme principals/syntax?
2017-09-07T04:47:48Z akkad: it also has a pretty good selection of packages, also it is in snow
2017-09-07T04:47:53Z akkad: its a scheme
2017-09-07T04:48:26Z akkad: it's r7rs so it can use packages from Snow fort
2017-09-07T04:48:54Z bigdaddytank: I was just curious if what I've learned about Lisp/Scheme/Clojure would be transferable or not
2017-09-07T04:49:19Z akkad: it's scheme, with nicities.
2017-09-07T04:49:44Z bigdaddytank: Also snow fort? (sorry I'm pleb college student)
2017-09-07T04:50:20Z akkad: http://snow-fort.org/
2017-09-07T04:50:48Z akkad: so r7rs provides a lot of what is required for packages to be portable to other schemes. so in theory any r7rs small can use any of these packages.
2017-09-07T04:52:03Z akkad: hmm Gauche is not there. thought it was
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2017-09-07T04:53:20Z bigdaddytank: That's interesting. I'd definitely try to use Gauche for scripting if I got into Linux sys administration more
2017-09-07T04:53:45Z akkad: well. oddly some other schemes can be found on most linux distros. e.g. guile
2017-09-07T04:53:59Z akkad: gauche should be available
2017-09-07T04:55:09Z bigdaddytank: well my distro only carries packages for sbcl, newlisp, ccl, lfe, and roswell(?)
2017-09-07T04:55:27Z bigdaddytank: But install from source is easy
2017-09-07T04:55:38Z akkad: use http://ecraven.github.io/r7rs-benchmarks/benchmark.html to get a feel for speed
2017-09-07T04:55:54Z akkad: ros is for common lisp, probably build from source then.
2017-09-07T04:56:05Z akkad: the code is nice to read as well. get a good idea of how to extend it
2017-09-07T04:56:56Z bigdaddytank: I really enjoy Clojure at the moment. I know that more people are starting to look at Clojure for web devel, some data science and machine/deep learning
2017-09-07T04:57:15Z bigdaddytank: So Gauche seems like a nice thing to pick up for scripting
2017-09-07T04:58:05Z bigdaddytank: And Clojure teaches the functional programming well and Lisp syntax well (while it's obviously different)
2017-09-07T04:58:29Z akkad: remember clojure is jvm. so it's never a good fit for scripts. tried and failed in a clojure shop
2017-09-07T04:58:39Z bigdaddytank: Oh yea god no
2017-09-07T04:59:16Z akkad: the reason I recommend the r7rs stuff, is as you learn more, you'll play with different schemes, and if you write code in r7rs then you can bring it with you
2017-09-07T04:59:25Z akkad: what ever that means
2017-09-07T05:00:19Z akkad: sagittarius is a fork from Gauche for some things, and is pretty nice as well.
2017-09-07T05:00:23Z bigdaddytank: As much as I enjoy it I know I couldn't script with it. It'd be more for an actually job. There are some guys at Apple that I know that use Clojure for some networking stuff but maybe for things that need faster startup they could look into Gauche
2017-09-07T05:01:42Z bigdaddytank: Is Chez a worth looking into as well?
2017-09-07T05:01:57Z bigdaddytank: From the link you sent Chez is number 1 in a lot of things
2017-09-07T05:01:59Z akkad: with scheme you have many choices.
2017-09-07T05:02:09Z akkad: chez is worth watching.
2017-09-07T05:03:52Z bigdaddytank: Chez is r6rs. God so...r7rs is smaller than r6rs? Am I understanding this right?
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2017-09-07T05:04:10Z akkad: r7rs has two versions, small, and big
2017-09-07T05:04:24Z akkad: r7rs small is what I believe is claimed as compliant atm
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2017-09-07T05:04:40Z akkad: but you will find packages use various parts of both, and also many srfi's
2017-09-07T05:05:28Z bigdaddytank: And small is for things like scripting etc. Not necessarily stuff like web development and such?
2017-09-07T05:05:43Z akkad: small just does not include the kitchen sink
2017-09-07T05:05:51Z akkad: think of big as something closer to CL
2017-09-07T05:06:02Z akkad: which in the scheme world is very large
2017-09-07T05:06:13Z bigdaddytank: Ah okay
2017-09-07T05:06:47Z bigdaddytank: And Racket is apart of r7rs big? Or is that still r5rs
2017-09-07T05:07:09Z bigdaddytank: Oh Racket is stall r5rs
2017-09-07T05:07:52Z bigdaddytank: *still
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2017-09-07T05:08:46Z bigdaddytank: It's still a new world to get used too. School is having me do Java (and knowing Clojure makes Java annoying) and then I still need to get all the way through SICP
2017-09-07T05:09:40Z akkad: you will find r6rs/r7rs for racket and others
2017-09-07T05:11:47Z bigdaddytank: Ah okay. Oh I forgot someone posted something on /r/Clojure about Chez Scheme: https://www.lvguowei.me/post/the-most-beautiful-program-ever-written/
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2017-09-07T05:20:58Z wasamasa: akkad: huh, I already wondered why their repls go by gosh and sash
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2017-09-07T05:26:11Z akkad likes Gerbil. nice fast static bins
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2017-09-07T05:32:23Z ecraven: hm.. why is gerbil not on my benchmarks.. i
2017-09-07T05:32:27Z ecraven: I'll need to change that ;)
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2017-09-07T05:33:30Z wasamasa: ohi ecraven
2017-09-07T05:33:54Z wasamasa: did you ever manage to get larceny to load scripts in r7rs mode?
2017-09-07T05:35:25Z ecraven: not sure, I'll check later
2017-09-07T05:36:43Z akkad: it's like gambit
2017-09-07T05:36:52Z wasamasa: or are you writing your benchmarks in something close to r5rs?
2017-09-07T05:40:00Z akkad: thought he was using existing benchmarks
2017-09-07T05:41:16Z wasamasa: then there's a need to modify them, no?
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2017-09-07T05:48:20Z akkad: why?
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2017-09-07T05:50:11Z wasamasa: it may be surprising to this CL person, but there is not a single scheme standard
2017-09-07T05:51:09Z akkad: tautologically correct
2017-09-07T05:51:29Z wasamasa: if you have an implementation that claims to do r5rs, r6rs and r7rs, but asks you to provide a -r6rs or -r7rs (or -r7r6) switch when loading up programs and doesn't even load r7rs scripts, your benchmark won't do shit until you modify it into a form that implementation accepts
2017-09-07T05:52:02Z akkad: fixed
2017-09-07T05:53:08Z ecraven: wasamasa: I have a "prelude" for every Scheme
2017-09-07T05:53:25Z wasamasa: so I guess larceny needs something r6rs-compatible
2017-09-07T05:53:29Z ecraven: as far as possible, I'm trying to get r7rs modes, but mit, chez, stalin, etc. all don't have r7rs
2017-09-07T05:53:31Z wasamasa: or a r7rs library
2017-09-07T05:53:52Z ecraven: yes, src/Larceny-postlude.scm
2017-09-07T05:54:05Z ecraven: seems larceny is r7rs, that just contains a function to print the exact version
2017-09-07T05:54:28Z ecraven:     time "${LARCENY}" --nocontract --r7rs --program "$1" < "$2"
2017-09-07T05:54:33Z ecraven: that's how the benchmarks are started
2017-09-07T05:56:01Z ecraven: ah, on arch linux, gsc is ghostscript, not gambit ;) was just wondering what gerbil did with ghostscript while building
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2017-09-07T05:56:52Z akkad: ecraven: enofeedtroll
2017-09-07T05:58:06Z wasamasa: huh, what does --nocontract do?
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2017-09-07T05:58:43Z ecraven: https://github.com/larcenists/larceny/blob/master/test/Benchmarking/R7RS/bench#L214
2017-09-07T05:58:57Z ecraven: that's the origin of the benchmarks
2017-09-07T05:59:51Z wasamasa: # Picrin (apparently) does not allow forward references within procedure definitions, so it is unable to run any of these benchmarks.
2017-09-07T05:59:55Z wasamasa: wow
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2017-09-07T06:00:13Z wasamasa: I've dropped it for other reasons, but still
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2017-09-07T06:03:26Z akkad: no it all came from cl, and you are going to listen to me whine about how scheme is not cl! :P
2017-09-07T06:04:06Z ecraven: akkad: I don't know wasamasa personally, but in view of his/her contributions to Scheme, elisp and CL, I certainly don't consider her/him a troll in any way
2017-09-07T06:04:23Z ecraven: there is a lot of valid criticism of Scheme (and of CL, elisp, and whatever else)
2017-09-07T06:04:45Z ecraven: does gerbil need gambit at runtime?
2017-09-07T06:05:51Z akkad: not once you build it
2017-09-07T06:05:58Z akkad: I can set up a docker to do it all if you want
2017-09-07T06:06:01Z ecraven: ok, nice, then I'll whip up a PKGBUILD for it on arch
2017-09-07T06:06:17Z akkad: you'll want 4.8.8
2017-09-07T06:06:18Z ecraven: no need, shoudn't be hard to get that PKGBUILD working, then I can include it in the tests
2017-09-07T06:06:21Z akkad: and enable-dingle-host
2017-09-07T06:06:47Z ecraven: I'd normally use -git, and show whatever version that reports
2017-09-07T06:08:58Z akkad: vyzo added r7rs
2017-09-07T06:09:08Z wasamasa: gerbil does r7rs?
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2017-09-07T06:09:33Z akkad: ignore evading huh?
2017-09-07T06:09:59Z wasamasa: I'm sorry, what?
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2017-09-07T06:13:27Z ecraven: akkad: how do I install gerbil on the system?
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2017-09-07T06:15:54Z akkad:  ecraven: it runs out of it's own build dir atm
2017-09-07T06:16:25Z akkad: it invokes its prelude to gambit which in turn transpiles to c then to binary
2017-09-07T06:16:36Z akkad: gxi is the interactive part
2017-09-07T06:16:45Z ecraven: hm.. so I need the gsc binary visible when I run gxi/gxc?
2017-09-07T06:16:48Z akkad: https://www.lvguowei.me/post/the-most-beautiful-program-ever-written/
2017-09-07T06:16:50Z akkad: yes
2017-09-07T06:16:54Z akkad: well it builds it's own
2017-09-07T06:16:57Z akkad: once it is built
2017-09-07T06:17:04Z ecraven: ok, that's not ideal, because arch has gsc run ghostscript :-/
2017-09-07T06:17:10Z ecraven: ah, ok
2017-09-07T06:17:27Z akkad: well my point is you can override path for just the build.sh to use the right gsc
2017-09-07T06:17:40Z ecraven: so I'd have to manually `install' all files somewhere and set GERBIL_HOME to something, to get it to install on the system?
2017-09-07T06:17:42Z akkad: once it is built, it won't depend on external gambit
2017-09-07T06:17:48Z ecraven: akkad: ok, that's good
2017-09-07T06:17:48Z akkad: like I said I can make a docker
2017-09-07T06:18:03Z akkad: atm you can copy out the two parts you need
2017-09-07T06:18:06Z ecraven: yea, but like I said, there's nothing I can do with a docker, I need an archlinux pkgbuild
2017-09-07T06:18:20Z akkad: pkgsrc is the one true build system ;P
2017-09-07T06:18:22Z akkad: ok
2017-09-07T06:18:28Z ecraven: no, but it's what I run the benchmark on
2017-09-07T06:18:48Z ecraven: if Someone™ wants, they can run all benchmarks on docker, but I just run them directly on the machine
2017-09-07T06:19:11Z akkad: well for delivery and reproducibility I run them all in a docker, so it's faster to build/kick off
2017-09-07T06:19:17Z akkad: anyone can do it
2017-09-07T06:19:28Z akkad: why bring a distro into it? :P
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2017-09-07T06:20:03Z ecraven: how on earth would it be faster to build 25 dockers than to just run the benchmarks?
2017-09-07T06:20:14Z ecraven: also, is there something I need to pass to gerbil to make it r7rs?
2017-09-07T06:20:24Z ecraven: it doesn't have inexact by default, so it wouldn't run the tests without a prelude
2017-09-07T06:20:27Z akkad: you build one docker that has the schemes
2017-09-07T06:20:46Z ecraven: if I really wanted to do that, I'd use guixsd ;D
2017-09-07T06:21:17Z ecraven: which directories do I need to copy around? bin and lib?
2017-09-07T06:21:31Z ecraven: hm.. or maybe just copy everything to /opt/gerbil
2017-09-07T06:23:45Z jackdaniel: for my local programs I have ~/bin directory (which is part of my PATH) and I do something like `ln -s /some/random/directory/lisps/ecl-16.1.3-dev/bin/ecl ~/bin/'
2017-09-07T06:25:14Z akkad: hey jackdaniel
2017-09-07T06:25:39Z jackdaniel: hey
2017-09-07T06:26:17Z akkad: all the r7rs test passed
2017-09-07T06:26:27Z akkad: so it should be good way to test gambit for the r7rs stuff
2017-09-07T06:27:19Z ecraven: akkad: well, start gxi, type (inexact 3), you get  Unbound variable: inexact
2017-09-07T06:27:24Z ecraven: that is certainly not r7rs-compatible
2017-09-07T06:27:41Z akkad: did you load r7rs?
2017-09-07T06:27:51Z ecraven: no ;) didn't know you needed that
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2017-09-07T06:28:16Z akkad: most require you to import explicitly what you desire, no?
2017-09-07T06:28:43Z ecraven: depends, some repls don't need you to import anything
2017-09-07T06:28:46Z ecraven: how do I import r7rs in gerbil?
2017-09-07T06:28:56Z akkad: one sec
2017-09-07T06:29:54Z akkad: in gerbil/doc/r7rs.md
2017-09-07T06:30:02Z akkad: prelude: :scheme/r7rs
2017-09-07T06:31:31Z ecraven: how do I set the prelude for gxi?
2017-09-07T06:31:39Z akkad: (inexact? 10) works
2017-09-07T06:32:01Z akkad: I always compile it.
2017-09-07T06:32:16Z akkad: let me see if vyzo is active
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2017-09-07T07:04:18Z wasamasa: so, can you do the same thing as the prelude with a command-line option?
2017-09-07T07:04:31Z wasamasa: csc allows such stuff if you ever need it
2017-09-07T07:04:51Z ecraven: gxi doesn't seem to have an option to show all command-line options
2017-09-07T07:05:13Z wasamasa: if so I'd be tempted to test its r7rs support :P
2017-09-07T07:06:05Z wasamasa: I've submitted almost a dozen bugs already while implementing MAL and am still not done
2017-09-07T07:06:52Z akkad: i only ever run gxc, I expect gxi is slow
2017-09-07T07:07:39Z wasamasa: though, hm, if r7rs syntax is only supported for modules, this sounds similar to larceny
2017-09-07T07:08:03Z ecraven: I really enjoyed reading the chez bug where r6rs and r7rs specify different behaviour for re-raising exceptions, but the r6rs errata changed r6rs to behave like r7rs, and then r7rs errata specified that r7rs should behave like old r6rs (so they are again different)
2017-09-07T07:08:42Z wasamasa: lol
2017-09-07T07:09:44Z ecraven: it seems r7rs tried to be like r6rs, but didn't check the errata
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2017-09-07T08:38:11Z ecraven: ok, gerbil-scheme-git submitted to Arch Linux AUR, should work
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2017-09-07T10:25:12Z ecraven: so, gerbil added to the benchmarks, finishes 55 of them
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2017-09-07T11:21:35Z gwatt: ecraven: why do you have chez and petite in the benchmarks?
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2017-09-07T11:45:36Z ecraven: they might have different speed?
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2017-09-07T12:01:30Z gwatt: well that's certainly true
2017-09-07T12:03:58Z jcowan_: If they had the same speed there would be no point in chez
2017-09-07T12:04:21Z jcowan_: petite: the interpreter that runs as fast as one of the fastest Scheme compilers in existence!
2017-09-07T12:04:26Z jcowan_: (not)
2017-09-07T12:05:13Z jcowan_: ecraven: Where is this Chez bug?
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2017-09-07T12:20:55Z ecraven: jcowan: https://github.com/cisco/ChezScheme/issues/87
2017-09-07T12:21:33Z ecraven: though now that chez is available freely, the question is rather why would anyone use petite instead of chez?
2017-09-07T12:21:51Z ecraven: hm.. mit is still the most introspective system I've found out of all the ones I've tried
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2017-09-07T12:30:16Z jcowan_: ecraven: That's probably because it is closest to the general Lisp tradition
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2017-09-07T12:32:20Z ecraven: I've got a mostly working swank backend for chez scheme, but many things just aren't possible
2017-09-07T12:32:29Z ecraven: same problem with chibi :-/
2017-09-07T12:33:27Z jcowan_: If you don't like the Chibi REPL, you can write your own easily
2017-09-07T12:33:32Z jcowan_: see (chibi repl) for one such thing
2017-09-07T12:34:34Z ecraven: the problem is not the repl, the problem is properly inspecting things
2017-09-07T12:34:38Z jcowan_: If you want to ship a desktop app written in Chez, there is less overhead in shipping Petite + your compiled binaries than full Chez + your compiled binaries.
2017-09-07T12:34:44Z ecraven: starting from parameter lists of functions over stack traces, and so on
2017-09-07T12:34:59Z ecraven: don't you only need to ship the boot file?
2017-09-07T12:35:30Z ecraven: for example, there is no predicate for continuable conditions (with raise-continuable)
2017-09-07T12:35:48Z ecraven: so there is no way to allow the user to return a value for those, because I don't know *which
2017-09-07T12:35:55Z ecraven: conditions are actually continuable
2017-09-07T12:36:29Z ecraven: there is no way in chez (nor chibi, iirc) to evaluate code in the exact environment of a library/module
2017-09-07T12:36:36Z ecraven: you cannot get non-exported bindings at all in chez
2017-09-07T12:36:59Z ecraven: I understand the reasons, but personally, that is one of the reasons why I *like* Scheme so much, the power of the REPL
2017-09-07T12:37:19Z ecraven: if I wanted to Edit-Compile-Run, I'd just use something else
2017-09-07T12:37:26Z ecraven: </rant> :D
2017-09-07T12:37:35Z C-Keen: chicken for example :)
2017-09-07T12:37:44Z ecraven: C-Keen: can chicken do all that?
2017-09-07T12:37:57Z ecraven: I haven't had time to implement another swank, but I might get interested ;)
2017-09-07T12:38:18Z ecraven: or rather, I've been thinking about actually implementing *one* swank, and just have system-specific backends for it
2017-09-07T12:38:32Z C-Keen: no, the swank module is not really useful, it kinda works though. Plus there's some geiser module iirc but that hits the same limitations
2017-09-07T12:38:38Z jcowan_: http://www.scheme.com/docs/petite.pdf <-- how to ship Chez apps with Petite
2017-09-07T12:38:53Z C-Keen: chicken is not really introspective
2017-09-07T12:38:55Z jcowan_: interesting that you can just cat together your object files and Chez will cope
2017-09-07T12:39:00Z ecraven: C-Keen: that's unfortunate :-/
2017-09-07T12:39:05Z ecraven: jcowan_: yes, that is a very cool thing
2017-09-07T12:39:30Z C-Keen: ecraven: indeed but there's a lot of information that gets lost when you load compiled code...
2017-09-07T12:39:31Z ecraven: I'd love mit's system on chez's performance :-/
2017-09-07T12:39:40Z ecraven: C-Keen: but does it *have* to be that way?
2017-09-07T12:40:53Z gwatt: I wonder how much of chez's performance requires discarding that extra information
2017-09-07T12:40:54Z ecraven: for example, it would help with development sometimes if TCO could be disabled (just to get better stack traces)
2017-09-07T12:41:03Z C-Keen: ecraven: mostly design decisions made in favour of speed
2017-09-07T12:41:16Z ecraven: gwatt: my point is, could you not store all that extra information somewhere out of the way, and access it only if needed?
2017-09-07T12:41:22Z ecraven: then it shouldn't have any effect on speed
2017-09-07T12:41:25Z gwatt: dunno
2017-09-07T12:41:35Z ecraven: for example, parameter lists of functions. just put them in a hash-table somewhere
2017-09-07T12:41:38Z ecraven: or source code
2017-09-07T12:42:43Z ecraven: or even more important, source file location of functions :D
2017-09-07T12:43:29Z ecraven: anyway, to each his own, I'll just keep playing around with things, chez's ffi is interesting (requiring no C compiler), my rudimentary sqlite3 interface works nicely
2017-09-07T12:44:49Z ecraven: jcowan_: any plans for an introspective module for r7rs-large?
2017-09-07T12:45:11Z ecraven: things like parameter lists, documentation, source code, source location, etc.?
2017-09-07T12:45:40Z jcowan_: Seems reasonable.  We could have them return #f if nothing is known
2017-09-07T12:46:07Z jcowan_: I definitely want to have arity; there's a withdrawn SRFI for it that isn't very good, but there are some good ideas on the mailing list for hte SRFI
2017-09-07T12:46:10Z ecraven: that's the intention. it would basically just be a common API
2017-09-07T12:46:15Z jcowan_ nods
2017-09-07T12:46:38Z ecraven: geiser would probably like this too ;)
2017-09-07T12:47:12Z ecraven: maybe also record introspection (again optionally not doing anything)
2017-09-07T12:47:37Z jcowan_: From Scheme 2017 Q & A:  "Why standardize?  To ensure that implementations are compatible on the things they have in common, without stopping them having things not in common
2017-09-07T12:47:44Z jcowan_: "
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2017-09-07T12:49:47Z ecraven: wow, sqlite3 cannot drop a single column? ...
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2017-09-07T13:05:51Z jcowan_: ecraven: No, the only thing you can do is add columns at the end of a row
2017-09-07T13:06:48Z jcowan_: And rename a table.
2017-09-07T13:07:11Z jcowan_: But it's trivial to use insert ... select to create a derivative table and then rename it to the original.
2017-09-07T13:09:00Z jcowan_: or better yet create table ... as select
2017-09-07T13:09:42Z ecraven: yea, just investigating that ;)
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2017-09-07T13:33:00Z gwatt: still annoying
2017-09-07T13:33:32Z ecraven: yea, especially since there already is VACUUM, so they would only need to mark the column as 'deactivated' :-/
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2017-09-07T17:10:51Z ecraven: is there any scheme system that provides introspection on macros?
2017-09-07T17:21:55Z gwatt: The nearest I've ever seen is just (expand (...))
2017-09-07T17:23:15Z jcowan: Chris Hanson says, try syntax-quote
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2017-09-07T17:56:40Z ecraven: syntax-quote? which system?
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2017-09-07T18:08:44Z jcowan: on MIT Scheme
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2017-09-07T19:50:59Z ecraven: jcowan_: hm.. syntax-quote is unbound?
2017-09-07T19:53:57Z jcowan_: ecraven: That's all I know
2017-09-07T19:54:00Z ecraven: for example, it would be interesting to get at the pattern parts of a syntax-rules form
2017-09-07T19:54:13Z ecraven: to show the possible forms as help
2017-09-07T19:54:28Z ecraven: mit-scheme has (syntax form environment), for macroexpansion, I think
2017-09-07T19:57:02Z akkad: ecraven: any luck?
2017-09-07T19:57:05Z akkad: re: gerbil
2017-09-07T20:05:15Z ecraven: akkad: aye, already up ;) look at the benchmarks
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2017-09-07T20:11:31Z akkad: :P
2017-09-07T20:11:34Z akkad: thanks
2017-09-07T20:12:41Z akkad: nice! how did you build the bootstrap gambit?
2017-09-07T20:12:49Z akkad: e.g. --enable-single-host?
2017-09-07T20:13:08Z akkad: I know that makes a big difference on performance as well as using dev vs 4.8.8
2017-09-07T20:15:34Z ecraven: I used the normal arch linux gambit
2017-09-07T20:15:50Z akkad: ok. fair enough
2017-09-07T20:16:01Z akkad: oddly it beats gambit in some cases.
2017-09-07T20:16:04Z ecraven: always open to suggestions or PRs on how to improve things
2017-09-07T20:16:07Z akkad: would not expect that
2017-09-07T20:16:10Z ecraven: hehe, yea
2017-09-07T20:16:12Z akkad: sure. code is king
2017-09-07T20:16:19Z akkad: thank you for the work on getting it added
2017-09-07T20:16:26Z ecraven: well, I should run the benchmarks more often and do actual statistics on them, ideally
2017-09-07T20:16:41Z ecraven: no problem, always interested in adding living Schemes that I don't have yet
2017-09-07T20:17:02Z akkad: yeah. it's cool to see.
2017-09-07T20:17:10Z akkad: helps flush out regressions
2017-09-07T20:17:11Z jcowan_: How do you decide if a Scheme is living?
2017-09-07T20:17:30Z jcowan_: My original criterion was, if it builds and runs, I'll use it for my ImplementationContrast tests
2017-09-07T20:17:45Z akkad: I had done a gunzip/json parsing tree walker for cloudtrail logs as my benchmark to select a scheme for performance.
2017-09-07T20:17:45Z ecraven: jcowan_: that's good enough ;)
2017-09-07T20:17:59Z ecraven: if there are any obvious ones I'm missing, feel free to raise an issue
2017-09-07T20:18:12Z ecraven: if it builds and runs on Arch Linux, I'll do everything I can to include it
2017-09-07T20:18:38Z jcowan_: compare list on <http://trac.sacrideo.us/wg/wiki/ImplementationContrasts> with your list, follow links to find the implementation
2017-09-07T20:19:05Z akkad: arch is a good base
2017-09-07T20:19:24Z ecraven: it's just what I use, no special reason otherwise
2017-09-07T20:19:38Z ecraven: I'm considering moving to guixsd, but haven't had the time to create all the scheme derivations yet
2017-09-07T20:19:46Z ecraven: would make things more reproducible
2017-09-07T20:20:26Z ecraven: jcowan_: thanks, I'll have a look at that
2017-09-07T20:20:47Z ecraven: I need to improve the html results page, it is getting rather unwieldy
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2017-09-07T20:22:03Z akkad: ecraven: yeah pretty charts like through Gruff are nice
2017-09-07T20:22:11Z akkad: wish scheme had a lib like that
2017-09-07T20:22:23Z ecraven: write one ;P
2017-09-07T20:23:04Z akkad: yeah I sort of got it working in CL
2017-09-07T20:23:31Z akkad: but gerbil is 2x faster than sbcl in the work load I have, and has a proper gc
2017-09-07T20:23:45Z akkad: gambit is pretty impressive. gerbil brings a lot of the modern libs to it
2017-09-07T20:23:46Z ecraven: nice!
2017-09-07T20:24:06Z ecraven: I always wanted to compare the Schemes to CL, but I don't really want to port the benchmarks
2017-09-07T20:24:21Z akkad: yeah. that's why I chose a real world scenario
2017-09-07T20:24:21Z ecraven: I hadn't even heard of Gerbil until a few weeks ago
2017-09-07T20:24:41Z ecraven: I always assumed that SBCL was way faster than the normal Schemes, but it seems that is not true
2017-09-07T20:25:04Z akkad: Fare told me about it a few months back, and have been working with Vyzo in #gerbil-scheme to port the goodies to it
2017-09-07T20:25:12Z ecraven: nice!
2017-09-07T20:25:29Z akkad: e.g. r7rs, and some other nicities I found useful in other schemes
2017-09-07T20:25:53Z akkad is a recent convert, the folks here are very nice compared to The Lisp ® channel
2017-09-07T20:26:06Z ecraven: ;) it's a good place here
2017-09-07T20:28:26Z akkad: https://github.com/kunabi/read-ct was it
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2017-09-07T20:35:17Z jcowan_: ecraven: missing: SISC SCM  NexJ JSCheme STklos KSI SigScheme Shoe Mini-Scheme Scheme9 S7  Unlikely SIOD BDC Schemik Elk Llava SXM LMU Inlab Oaklisp OwlLisp
2017-09-07T20:35:53Z ecraven: thanks ;) some of them are probably not scheme enough to run the benchmarks, but I'll go through the list and see which ones I can add
2017-09-07T20:36:02Z ecraven: owllisp I've tried, but not succeeded yet
2017-09-07T20:36:52Z jcowan_: Yeah, I skipped the less Schemy ones like FemtoLisp
2017-09-07T20:37:17Z jcowan_: Note that Oaklisp only builds with a 32-bit compiler
2017-09-07T20:37:24Z jcowan_: and even then there may be problems; see the page
2017-09-07T20:37:28Z jcowan_: (my page)
2017-09-07T20:37:30Z jcowan_ is now known as jcowan
2017-09-07T20:39:08Z ecraven: jcowan: hm.. FemtoLisp runs ok on the benchmarks, I've added it a few months back, and had a few PRs to make things better
2017-09-07T20:39:33Z ecraven: I should try to get people to include the custom prelude code in their code, then they would be more r7rs-y ;)
2017-09-07T20:39:54Z jcowan chuckles
2017-09-07T20:39:56Z jcowan: Oh, okay
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2017-09-07T20:43:43Z takitus: ecraven: I noticed you dropped s9fes a while back. Too horribly slow?
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2017-09-08T05:40:26Z ecraven: takitus: it's still in there, s9fes
2017-09-08T05:40:42Z ecraven: I might have reduced the maximum runtime, making it fail more tests
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2017-09-08T05:47:24Z ecraven: hm.. so who though srfi-22 is a good idea? makes it very hard to install more than one scheme, as they all want the same binaries :-/
2017-09-08T05:49:29Z wasamasa: fun, I've seen it endorsed on the SISC page
2017-09-08T05:49:59Z ecraven: that's exactly the problem I have, gambit-c owns /usr/bin/scheme-r5rs, sisc want to install the same name
2017-09-08T05:50:06Z wasamasa: lol
2017-09-08T05:50:27Z ecraven: I understand the idea, but if anyone wants to install more than one scheme system, having a fixed binary name is *not* a good idea
2017-09-08T05:50:30Z wasamasa: they never thought that to be a problem, huh
2017-09-08T05:50:43Z ecraven: same thing with chez and mit, both want /usr/bin/scheme (though apparently chez has seniority here)
2017-09-08T05:50:52Z wasamasa: it's about as ballsy as createdb for postgres
2017-09-08T05:51:29Z ecraven: yea, not sure why people think those names are good ideas
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2017-09-08T06:00:33Z wasamasa: or convert for imagemagick
2017-09-08T06:02:13Z aeth: imagemaagick has a lot of ambitious names
2017-09-08T06:02:21Z aeth: s/aa/a/
2017-09-08T06:02:34Z aeth: e.g. import
2017-09-08T06:02:50Z aeth: (it doesn't import things, it screenshots)
2017-09-08T06:07:26Z jonaslund: if scheme impls would agree on a env-var that controls the impl selected? (Although, at that stage the env name could be used to launch anyhow)
2017-09-08T06:07:34Z jonaslund: launch directly thatis
2017-09-08T06:08:21Z ecraven: there probably is no good solution to this, I'd strongly advocate to add at least something like sisc/mit/c(hicken)/... to each executable, to make it kind of unique
2017-09-08T06:13:05Z ecraven: hm.. I want a logo for every Scheme, so I can make the graphs smaller :P
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2017-09-08T07:04:17Z vyzo: I have a little Gerbil in http://hackzen.org/gerbil/gerbil-logo-r.png
2017-09-08T07:04:30Z vyzo: it has a lambda tatoo :)
2017-09-08T07:13:06Z ecraven: hehe, nice!
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2017-09-08T07:13:57Z ecraven: hm.. neither Oaklisp nor OwlLisp are simple to add to the benchmarks :-/
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2017-09-08T07:42:29Z vyzo: ecraven: are there up to date graphs rendered online?
2017-09-08T07:42:33Z vyzo: I'd like to inspect them
2017-09-08T07:42:38Z vyzo: also, fix the tests that didn't finish
2017-09-08T07:42:51Z vyzo: I bet there is an equal? on shared structures involved :)
2017-09-08T07:43:22Z ecraven: vyzo: https://ecraven.github.io/r7rs-benchmarks/benchmark.html, gerbil run is from yesterday
2017-09-08T07:43:39Z ecraven: that page links to github, which has results.Gerbil, which should show a trace of the runs (and error messages)
2017-09-08T07:43:50Z ecraven: if it doesn't, clone the repo, and run `make gerbil'
2017-09-08T07:44:05Z ecraven: it just expects to find gxc in the path
2017-09-08T07:44:43Z vyzo: ah yes!
2017-09-08T07:44:46Z vyzo: found them
2017-09-08T07:45:11Z ecraven: I think I noticed yesterday that gerbil writes some error messages to neither stdout nor stderr, but that might have been some other scheme
2017-09-08T07:47:07Z vyzo: I also noticed that we have some slowodwn compared to plain Gambit
2017-09-08T07:47:10Z vyzo: I would like to fix this :)
2017-09-08T07:47:20Z vyzo: Gerbil should be as fast as pure Gambit
2017-09-08T07:47:45Z ecraven: just keep in mind that this only runs every test once (though each test runs the test function many times)
2017-09-08T07:47:51Z ecraven: so there is probably some variation
2017-09-08T07:47:55Z vyzo: oh ok
2017-09-08T07:48:11Z ecraven: so you might want to run gambit and gerbil a few times on your machine, just to get a feel for the actual numbers
2017-09-08T07:48:30Z ecraven: I'll fix this some day, but didn't have the time yet :-/
2017-09-08T07:48:47Z vyzo: also do you run in the interpreter?
2017-09-08T07:48:50Z vyzo: or is it compiled?
2017-09-08T07:48:59Z vyzo: and is it binaries or just compiled modules?
2017-09-08T07:49:31Z ecraven: look in bench, function gerbil_comp
2017-09-08T07:49:37Z ecraven:  ${GERBIL} -d $(dirname "$1") -exe -static -O -o "${1%.scm}.exe" "$1"
2017-09-08T07:49:54Z ecraven: I'd be happy if you improved on that, that's just he first thing I found that worked ;)
2017-09-08T07:51:49Z vyzo: ok, that's fine
2017-09-08T07:52:11Z vyzo: so there is apparently some slowdown from pure gambit I need to address :)
2017-09-08T07:52:33Z vyzo: because one of the goals of the project is to have uncompromising Gambit performance with a full fledged modular Scheme on top
2017-09-08T07:52:48Z vyzo: some tests run faster than gambit though
2017-09-08T07:53:08Z vyzo: which is interesting :)
2017-09-08T07:53:15Z ecraven: yea, might just be change, maybe run gambit and gerbil bench on your machine, then compare?
2017-09-08T07:53:20Z vyzo: yup
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2017-09-08T07:54:22Z ecraven: hm.. I really need to add a way to only compare a few schemes to the html
2017-09-08T07:54:53Z vyzo: I think I will have to do some more work in the Gerbil optimizer
2017-09-08T07:55:00Z vyzo: for things I expected gambit to optimize away
2017-09-08T07:55:03Z vyzo: but apparently aren't
2017-09-08T07:55:08Z vyzo: that's one explanation :)
2017-09-08T07:55:20Z vyzo: also, the compilation of letrec*
2017-09-08T07:55:29Z vyzo: I like to hoist lambdas into let* whenever I can
2017-09-08T07:55:41Z vyzo: maybe just flat out letrec is faster because of the shared closures
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2017-09-08T08:43:17Z vyzo: aaaah
2017-09-08T08:43:21Z vyzo: I found the explnation!
2017-09-08T08:43:27Z vyzo: you have (declare (not safe)) in gambit
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2017-09-08T08:43:38Z vyzo: ecraven: add (declare (not safe)) to the prelude
2017-09-08T08:43:44Z vyzo: and then it will go as fast as gambit everywhere
2017-09-08T08:43:49Z vyzo: even faster in some places :)
2017-09-08T08:43:54Z ecraven: cool, I'll do that right away
2017-09-08T08:44:10Z akkad: nice
2017-09-08T08:44:27Z akkad: just dont let the charts show this faster than racket
2017-09-08T08:44:29Z akkad: :P
2017-09-08T08:44:42Z vyzo: heh
2017-09-08T08:44:44Z ecraven: oh, by the way, is there a way to get r7rs at the repl?
2017-09-08T08:44:48Z vyzo: not yet
2017-09-08T08:44:57Z vyzo: I am working on adding support to gxi for custom preludes
2017-09-08T08:44:58Z ecraven: well, racket-on-chez will raise the bar a lot :-)
2017-09-08T08:45:05Z vyzo: nah, it's not that much faster
2017-09-08T08:45:09Z vyzo: I was talking to matt
2017-09-08T08:45:11Z vyzo: mflatt
2017-09-08T08:45:16Z vyzo: it's a little faster
2017-09-08T08:45:23Z vyzo: so it might bring racket on par
2017-09-08T08:45:33Z vyzo: but nothing dramatic
2017-09-08T08:45:43Z vyzo: was talking in ICFP
2017-09-08T08:45:46Z vyzo: I just got back from it
2017-09-08T08:45:50Z vyzo: didn't stay for the haskell stuff
2017-09-08T08:46:58Z akkad: ecraven: can you change the time to use /usr/bin/time and add -avp ?
2017-09-08T08:47:09Z akkad: to record memory usage as well as io?
2017-09-08T08:48:57Z ecraven: yes, but that time is not used for reporting
2017-09-08T08:49:05Z ecraven: because it would include startup time
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2017-09-08T08:49:18Z ecraven: time is measured inside each scheme, with jiffies
2017-09-08T08:49:42Z ecraven: I'm working on run-on-schemes (my github), which should make it possible to run r7rs stuff on multiple schemes and get proper statistics
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2017-09-08T09:08:03Z vyzo: so yeah, with (declare (not safe)) its as fast or faster than gambit everywhere
2017-09-08T09:08:11Z vyzo: the letrec* hoisting is actually a real optimization
2017-09-08T09:08:23Z vyzo: we need to reflect this on benchmarks
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2017-09-08T14:42:10Z jcowan_: Nothing bad seems to happen if you rename the chez and MIT binaries
2017-09-08T14:43:04Z jcowan_: srfi-138 is an attempt to solve the problem of multiple Schemes to some degree
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2017-09-08T15:26:26Z vyzo: ecraven: how are the benchmarks going?
2017-09-08T15:26:35Z vyzo: I am dying to inspect the final result :)
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2017-09-08T15:32:27Z jcowan_: There is no final result, as it keeps growing and new Schemes are released
2017-09-08T15:32:51Z vyzo: I know
2017-09-08T15:32:54Z vyzo: it's a living process
2017-09-08T15:33:03Z vyzo: I am talking about the final results for a missing optimization in gerbil
2017-09-08T15:33:10Z vyzo: something added to the prelude
2017-09-08T15:33:16Z vyzo: which will make it dramatically faster :)
2017-09-08T15:33:41Z vyzo: basically it should be as fast or faster than gambit in all benchmarks
2017-09-08T15:33:58Z vyzo: the reason being that internal defines have letrec* semantics in gerbil -vs- letrec in gambit
2017-09-08T15:34:12Z vyzo: so the gerbil optimizer can hoist out non-recursive definitions to let*
2017-09-08T15:34:23Z vyzo: which produces faster scheme code for the gambit compiler to compile
2017-09-08T15:35:48Z gwatt: I wonder if chez's time would improve if the tests were compiled ahead of time
2017-09-08T15:35:57Z gwatt: not that chez needs much help there
2017-09-08T15:36:05Z vyzo: hehe
2017-09-08T15:39:46Z jcowan_: Oh, okay
2017-09-08T15:40:00Z Riastradh: jcowan_: Normally MIT Scheme's binary is called mit-scheme-$ARCH, with `scheme' as a symlink to it for hysterical porpoises.
2017-09-08T15:41:07Z jcowan_: Right, I probably knew that at one point when I was testing heavily
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2017-09-08T15:59:19Z ecraven: gwatt: chez compiles insanely fast
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2017-09-08T16:00:59Z ecraven: vyzo: sorry, just started it now
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2017-09-08T16:15:33Z vyzo: np, just anxious
2017-09-08T16:15:41Z vyzo: now that we are on the table, we got to have a good showing :)
2017-09-08T16:15:57Z vyzo: btw, I make the declaration of intent to support r7rs-large
2017-09-08T16:16:03Z jcowan_: Thanks
2017-09-08T16:16:09Z vyzo: even though I typically abstain from the standarization process :)
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2017-09-08T16:27:46Z wasamasa: vyzo: is it possible to execute r7rs scripts that load r7rs libraries with gerbil?
2017-09-08T16:28:05Z vyzo: not yet
2017-09-08T16:28:17Z vyzo: I am working on adding support for custom preludes to gxi
2017-09-08T16:28:32Z wasamasa: ah, ok
2017-09-08T16:28:34Z vyzo: I might make a gxi7 interpreter that uses r7rs scheme base as the prelude
2017-09-08T16:28:44Z vyzo: you should be able to run almost all scheme programs though
2017-09-08T16:28:48Z vyzo: r7rs I mean
2017-09-08T16:28:53Z vyzo: only diff is the import syntax
2017-09-08T16:28:55Z wasamasa: doesn't need to be interpreted, I'm fine if I need a compilation pass first
2017-09-08T16:29:05Z vyzo: oh, compiling works fine
2017-09-08T16:29:10Z vyzo: and then you can have a scipr that imports
2017-09-08T16:29:19Z wasamasa: https://github.com/wasamasa/mal/blob/r7rs-implementation/scm/notes.rst
2017-09-08T16:29:22Z vyzo: diff is (import :foo/bar/baz) -vs- (import (foo bar baz))
2017-09-08T16:29:29Z wasamasa: I want one codebase working with as many schemes as possible
2017-09-08T16:30:08Z vyzo: https://github.com/vyzo/gerbil/blob/master/doc/r7rs.md
2017-09-08T16:30:13Z vyzo: these are the implementation notes
2017-09-08T16:30:32Z wasamasa: so if it's an option to the compiler/interpreter, that would work
2017-09-08T16:31:04Z vyzo: yeah, it's planned
2017-09-08T16:31:09Z vyzo: it's a multilanguage scheme after all
2017-09-08T16:31:11Z wasamasa: see https://github.com/wasamasa/mal/blob/r7rs-implementation/scm/run and https://github.com/wasamasa/mal/blob/r7rs-implementation/scm/Makefile for the contortions so far :P
2017-09-08T16:31:14Z vyzo: that's why I call it a meta-dialect :)
2017-09-08T16:32:15Z vyzo: I think I might add a '--prelude module-path' option to both gxi/gxc
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2017-09-08T16:32:22Z vyzo: so that you can do gxi --prelude :scheme/r7rs
2017-09-08T16:32:29Z vyzo: or gxc --prelude :scheme/r7rs ...
2017-09-08T16:32:37Z vyzo: for both repl and compilation
2017-09-08T16:33:08Z wasamasa: what are the conventions for finding libraries?
2017-09-08T16:33:21Z vyzo: it has a LOADPATH
2017-09-08T16:33:24Z vyzo: GERBIL_LOADPATH
2017-09-08T16:33:28Z wasamasa: it's surprising, but picrin doesn't have any
2017-09-08T16:33:37Z vyzo: it searches it if it sees a ':' import
2017-09-08T16:33:46Z vyzo: defaults to GERBIL_HOME/lib and ~/.gerbil/lib
2017-09-08T16:34:02Z vyzo: when you compile omitting a target directory (with the -d option), your artifacts go to ~/.gerbil/lib
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2017-09-08T16:34:48Z wasamasa: so I could compile to ./lib, prepend ./lib to GERBIL_LOADPATH and then it loads the shared objects there?
2017-09-08T16:34:59Z vyzo: yes
2017-09-08T16:35:27Z vyzo: GERBIL_LOADPATH is split by ':' and appended to the default load path
2017-09-08T16:35:37Z wasamasa: great, that would work out for me then
2017-09-08T16:35:37Z vyzo: I might add a GERBIL_PRELOAD_PATH as well for prepending
2017-09-08T16:35:57Z vyzo: but that hasn't been useful so far other than for build dependency scripts that can do it programmatically already
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2017-09-08T17:10:39Z ecraven: sisc and (new) gerbil: http://ecraven.github.io/r7rs-benchmarks/benchmark.html
2017-09-08T17:15:44Z jcowan_: also accessible from r7rs.org for those who tend to forget URLs
2017-09-08T17:24:52Z gwatt: gerbil has a pretty good showing there
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2017-09-08T17:44:28Z akkad: yes. it's damn fast. 2x sbcl for my real world use cases
2017-09-08T17:45:16Z akkad: I'd really like to plot memory usage per implementation for these benchmarks. as some with jit tend to eat a lot of ram for the same task
2017-09-08T17:46:54Z ecraven: akkad: yes, I'd like that too
2017-09-08T17:47:11Z ecraven: but memory is harder to quantify, mit for example loads a *lot* of stuff (which can be very useful)
2017-09-08T17:47:14Z gwatt: I know chez has (current-memoty)
2017-09-08T17:47:30Z ecraven: (current-memory-bytes)
2017-09-08T17:47:38Z gwatt: ah yeah
2017-09-08T17:48:07Z ecraven: but yea, memory stats are on the list ;)
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2017-09-08T17:53:00Z akkad: mostly in use cases for quick and dirty scripts. the load time can vary greatly
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2017-09-08T20:50:04Z stratotanker: Hi! Please someone can help me? I'm writing a program in scheme but it's growing big. I'd like to split in several sources but I'm thinking about installation... what's the best way?
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2017-09-08T21:11:14Z Murii|osx: Hi! What does "begin" do?
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2017-09-08T21:12:02Z wasamasa: it's like {...} in C
2017-09-08T21:13:03Z Murii|osx: wasamasa I don't follow. Why is (begin 1 2 3) -> 3 ?
2017-09-08T21:13:05Z LeoNerd: It lets you have a sequence of multiple statements in a single contained expression#
2017-09-08T21:14:11Z wasamasa: Murii|osx: I've described how it behaves, not what it evaluates to
2017-09-08T21:22:05Z jcowan_: Murii|osx: In practice it is used when you are evaluating expressions for effect, as (begin (display "this") (display "that"))
2017-09-08T21:22:32Z jcowan_: because everything in a begin except the last is evaluated solely for effect, and the value is thrown away.
2017-09-08T21:22:43Z jcowan_: "Lisp programmers know the value of everything and the cost of nothing."
2017-09-08T21:24:51Z ecraven: how do I define-key C-. and C-' in edwin?
2017-09-08T21:24:52Z Murii|osx: interesting
2017-09-08T21:30:12Z pjb: Murii|osx: if you know C, (begin 1 2 3) is equivalent to  { 1; 2; return 3; }  or to (1,2,3);  (set! a (begin 1 2 3))  ==  int a=(1,2,3);
2017-09-08T21:31:07Z Murii|osx: pjb alright
2017-09-08T21:31:12Z Murii|osx: makes a bit more sense now
2017-09-08T21:32:46Z Murii|osx: cond is like:     if (exp1) { do_smt; if (exp1) do_smt2; etc } else do_else ?
2017-09-08T21:34:04Z Murii|osx: so basically every exp + 1 will check if exp - 1 is true and based on that continue else do the else statement?
2017-09-08T21:34:12Z pjb: Well, all lisp expression return a value (ignoring for now that sometimes it may be undefined, or multiple).  So in general, you will use only expressions in C, ie. ternary if.
2017-09-08T21:34:54Z wasamasa: cond is if (cond) {...} else if (cond) {...} else {...}
2017-09-08T21:34:54Z pjb: (cond (c1 e1) (c2 e2) … (cn en)) == return c1?e1:(c2?e2:…:(cn?en:#<undefined>)…);
2017-09-08T21:35:28Z Murii|osx: wasamasa got it
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2017-09-08T21:44:19Z wasamasa: the big difference is that the last thing in each block is returned
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2017-09-08T22:15:15Z aeth: That's actually the main issue I have with Scheme: it chooses to be cleaner rather than backwards compatible, but it then introduces something like #<undefined> or #<unspecified> in most implementations, literally interpreting "an unspecified value" in the spec.
2017-09-08T22:15:52Z aeth: Everything being an expression that returns a value (or if supported, sometimes multiple values) is the whole point of the language family.
2017-09-08T22:16:16Z aeth: Well, that and the macro-friendly syntax.
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2017-09-09T11:00:09Z stratotanker: Hello, I'd like to known how to foreign C structure with nested structures, guile support this?
2017-09-09T11:03:29Z wasamasa: aren't you supposed to write a module in C and load it from guile?
2017-09-09T11:04:01Z stratotanker: no wasamasa, I'd like to use scheme only, no C at all
2017-09-09T11:04:39Z stratotanker: this the struct I want to rw: https://www.gnu.org/software/parted/api/struct__PedDevice.html
2017-09-09T11:05:24Z fizzie: I believe it has a thing for it, but you'll need to define the struct layout yourself, and hope that it doesn't change.
2017-09-09T11:05:30Z fizzie: https://www.gnu.org/software/guile/manual/html_node/Foreign-Structs.html
2017-09-09T11:06:13Z wasamasa: stratotanker: then guile's not the right tool for you :>
2017-09-09T11:06:21Z stratotanker: fizzie, I read about foreign structs, but they don't talk about nested structures.
2017-09-09T11:06:26Z wasamasa: stratotanker: you'd want a scheme that makes full use of libffi
2017-09-09T11:06:39Z wasamasa: https://www.gnu.org/software/guile/manual/html_node/Dynamic-FFI.html#Dynamic-FFI
2017-09-09T11:06:43Z wasamasa: "A contribution to Guile in the form of a high-level FFI would be most welcome."
2017-09-09T11:06:53Z wasamasa: racket is an example of this
2017-09-09T11:07:02Z fizzie: stratotanker: You can just flatten it, since you're doing it manually.
2017-09-09T11:07:06Z stratotanker: wasamasa, they talk about using something like struct->bytevector and bytevector->stuct
2017-09-09T11:07:14Z wasamasa: CHICKEN is a curious case as it does modules, but they're mostly written in scheme
2017-09-09T11:07:59Z stratotanker: fizzie, okay, I guess i can list nested members directly, but.. how about alignment?
2017-09-09T11:08:46Z stratotanker: you think guile is able to manage C structs with padding?
2017-09-09T11:14:41Z fizzie: In the worst case, you could insert also the necessary padding by hand. It'd all be quite hacky. Though I note that the (alignof ...) procedure claims you can give it a list of types and it'll give the alignment of a struct with those members. I wonder if this means it also supports nested structs even if the documentation doesn't say.
2017-09-09T11:15:29Z fizzie: It would indeed seem to.
2017-09-09T11:15:44Z fizzie: As in: http://sprunge.us/jHTO
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2017-09-09T11:18:49Z stratotanker: okay, I'll try
2017-09-09T11:18:52Z stratotanker: thank's
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2017-09-09T12:20:27Z wasamasa: http://community.schemewiki.org/?obfuscated-scheme
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2017-09-09T20:57:18Z Murii|osx: defmacro is pretty much #define from C?
2017-09-09T20:57:38Z wasamasa: I'm not sure how you get the idea
2017-09-09T20:58:22Z aeth: Murii|osx: text macros are full of landmines
2017-09-09T20:58:28Z wasamasa: sure, it's a compile time mechanism for codegen, but it's not working by replacing text
2017-09-09T20:58:33Z aeth: All Lisp macros operate on, essentially, the AST
2017-09-09T20:58:54Z wasamasa: someone once quipped that C++ templates are to lisp macros like tax forms to poetry
2017-09-09T20:59:04Z qu1j0t3: Murii|osx: in other words, "no".
2017-09-09T20:59:24Z Murii|osx: hm
2017-09-09T20:59:44Z aeth: Comparing C macros to Lisp macros is like comparing a hash table to a relational database.
2017-09-09T20:59:45Z Murii|osx: ok
2017-09-09T21:00:00Z qu1j0t3: i don't think any real comparison can be made at all.
2017-09-09T21:00:03Z aeth: There are some superficial simliarities, but Lisp macros are considerably more elaborate.
2017-09-09T21:00:18Z wasamasa: there's also a great variety of them
2017-09-09T21:01:21Z aeth: C macros are actually closer to "reader macros" afaik. Not quite the same thing, though.
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2017-09-09T21:01:27Z aeth: I'm not sure if any Schemes implement reader macros.
2017-09-09T21:01:35Z Murii|osx: "Unlike a function, the arguments to a macro are not evaluated. The result of evaluating the body of the macro is then itself evaluated."
2017-09-09T21:01:35Z wasamasa: sure there are, like CHICKEN
2017-09-09T21:01:38Z Murii|osx: is this correct?
2017-09-09T21:02:09Z wasamasa: it's more useful to think of macros as a code expansion, preferrably done at compile-time
2017-09-09T21:02:47Z wasamasa: the difference between C and lisp here is that the cpp only does text replacement whereas in lisp the compiler replaces the ast with an expanded version of it
2017-09-09T21:03:20Z wasamasa: you can run arbitrary lisp code while computing that expansion and generate other lisp code to use instead
2017-09-09T21:03:20Z Murii|osx: I'm making my own lisp so I have to understand what it suppose to do
2017-09-09T21:03:57Z aeth: Consider a program where you have to write a lot of boilerplate, but where functions are not a good fit.
2017-09-09T21:04:09Z wasamasa: something like excessive parenthesizing or wrapping things in do{...}while(0) is not necessary
2017-09-09T21:04:21Z aeth: In C, you're going to write that boilerplate. C macros aren't powerful or safe enough. Macro magic is going to cause lots of potential bugs.
2017-09-09T21:04:52Z aeth: In Lisp, that's not an issue. You write it almost like a function definition.
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2017-09-09T21:05:43Z aeth: (There is an issue of hygienic macros vs. not, but this is fairly advanced for a simple description)
2017-09-09T21:05:46Z wasamasa: Murii|osx: write more lisp before making a lisp
2017-09-09T21:06:57Z Murii|osx: wasamasa Right now I have enough for a scripting language (exactly what I wanted to make) but I'm looking into maybe expand it
2017-09-09T21:08:58Z aeth: There are some idioms that make a lot of sense for Lisp macros. (Macro overuse will make your code unreadable.) Two are do-foo and define-foo. (Sometimes the latter is deffoo, don't do that, especially in Scheme.)
2017-09-09T21:10:10Z aeth: Writing your own iteration or defining systax is fairly common.
2017-09-09T21:13:03Z aeth: If you want to get to know basic macros, write a simple program that uses both do-foo and define-foo for some foo. define-foo will create a foo, just like (define (some-function x) (+ x 42)) defines a function.
2017-09-09T21:13:55Z aeth: In Scheme, you might also want a set-foo! (in CL, setf is used for general setting and you just define a setf)
2017-09-09T21:14:48Z wasamasa: or implement a generic setter SRFI
2017-09-09T21:14:53Z aeth: If you're designing your own Lisp, you should definitely at a minimum look at a Scheme, Racket, and Common Lisp for different ideas.
2017-09-09T21:15:17Z aeth: And by "look at", I mean write several thousand lines in all three.
2017-09-09T21:15:24Z wasamasa: it seems like people enjoy creating lesser copies of clojure these days :P
2017-09-09T21:15:33Z wasamasa: I can't explain hy and pixie otherwise
2017-09-09T21:17:34Z aeth: A lot of Lisps are made by people who don't know Lisp.
2017-09-09T21:18:18Z wasamasa: it's interesting because clojure has been made by a long-time CL person, but the copycats didn't invest nearly as much thought
2017-09-09T21:18:19Z aeth: A lot of "Lisps" are just some other language with s-expressions
2017-09-09T21:18:52Z aeth: I mean, superimposing s-expressions on top of another language. At least, that's what Hy looks like (basically just parenthesized Python)
2017-09-09T21:19:05Z wasamasa: that's what it compiles to as well
2017-09-09T21:19:14Z aeth: Not quite, I think it compiles to Python's AST
2017-09-09T21:19:44Z aeth: But, anyway, anyone who doesn't have any understanding of the differences between CL and Scheme and the tradeoffs in those design choices probably shouldn't make yet another new Lisp.
2017-09-09T21:19:52Z wasamasa: close enough
2017-09-09T21:21:16Z aeth: (I would say the exception is if someone just wants to write a Scheme implementation because then a lot of the design decisions are made for you.)
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2017-09-09T21:27:02Z pie_: is it possible to implement syntactic sugar in scheme?
2017-09-09T21:27:12Z wasamasa: ever heard of macros?
2017-09-09T21:27:25Z pie_: yeah
2017-09-09T21:27:29Z wasamasa: ever used when?
2017-09-09T21:27:39Z pie_: havent gotten very far in sicp yet though
2017-09-09T21:28:03Z wasamasa: when is syntactic sugar implemented as a macro
2017-09-09T21:28:32Z pie_: ok thanks
2017-09-09T21:30:08Z aeth: If you mean more traditional syntactic sugar, you can do that in an implementation with reader macros, but it might not be supported by your tools (editor, linter, etc.)
2017-09-09T21:30:29Z aeth: You should usually not use those.
2017-09-09T21:30:41Z wasamasa: wisp is a rather extreme case of this :>
2017-09-09T21:31:11Z wasamasa: neither scheme-mode nor python-mode will work with it
2017-09-09T21:31:42Z aeth: depending on the reader macro system, !(or foo bar) could expand to (not (or foo bar)) but don't do this
2017-09-09T21:31:55Z aeth: Keeping the parentheses helps a ton
2017-09-09T21:32:33Z aeth: but e.g. '(1 2 3) might expand to (quote (1 2 3)) in some Lisps so some Lisps do this
2017-09-09T21:33:12Z aeth: The difference is that tools and conventions will support built-in things like that, but not your additions
2017-09-09T21:36:04Z pie_: right
2017-09-09T21:36:59Z wasamasa:  even macros can be tricky in this regard, emacs' debugger for instance requires extra hints to be able to step through them correctly
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2017-09-09T21:38:34Z aeth: Macros should ideally stick to established patterns. do-foo and define-foo are the examples I gave earlier.
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2017-09-10T00:37:09Z qu1j0t3:  /b 35
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2017-09-10T01:24:03Z jcowan: I've been thinking about how lexical syntax might be extended without having to change existing implementations of `read`.
2017-09-10T01:24:38Z jcowan: Why do we have lexical syntax anyway?
2017-09-10T01:28:19Z jcowan: After all, #(...) does nothing that (vector ...) does not do.
2017-09-10T01:28:37Z jcowan: It's a bit more compact, but this is Scheme not APl.
2017-09-10T01:28:48Z jcowan: (or "A" as one version of it was called)
2017-09-10T01:30:13Z jcowan: The exception is of course when writing out data in Lisp/Scheme format, where there is no evaluation involved.
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2017-09-10T01:47:35Z pjb: jcowan: Compare: #.(vector (+ 1 2) 4)  #((+ 1 2) 4)
2017-09-10T01:48:13Z pjb: jcowan: in CL, #.(vector (+ 1 2) 4) #| --> #(3 4) |#   #((+ 1 2) 4) #| --> #((+ 1 2) 4) |#
2017-09-10T01:48:36Z pjb: It's a great shame that other languages (python, ruby, etc) don't distinguish constructors and literals…
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2017-09-10T05:23:17Z netox86: hi
2017-09-10T05:23:22Z daviid quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2017-09-10T05:23:59Z netox86: what is best to learn first, Lisp or Haskell?
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2017-09-10T05:30:07Z Ober: I would say scheme is far easier.
2017-09-10T05:34:20Z aeth: Much easier.
2017-09-10T05:34:40Z netox86: scheme is much easier?
2017-09-10T05:35:01Z netox86: ok... where i should start
2017-09-10T05:35:31Z aeth: Haskell is a very alien language if you're used to more common programming languages. It's lazy and it has a complicated type system.
2017-09-10T05:35:49Z netox86: i come here from the page of CLiki
2017-09-10T05:39:40Z Ober: plus haskell has it's own jargon from other languages
2017-09-10T05:42:04Z netox86: I thought it was purer functional programming language
2017-09-10T05:42:57Z netox86: pure functional*
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2017-09-10T05:45:40Z Ober: if crying over why the compiler won't build your helloworld program, yes
2017-09-10T05:46:37Z netox86: ok
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2017-09-10T05:48:47Z netox86: it's there on the internet some free books for start learning Scheme?
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2017-09-10T05:51:00Z netox86: (excuse me for my poor English, i'm not a natural speaker)
2017-09-10T05:51:02Z Ober: I'd recommend Little Schemer series. very useful
2017-09-10T05:51:25Z netox86: nice
2017-09-10T05:51:51Z Ober: SICP is a great book once you are comfortable
2017-09-10T05:52:40Z netox86: i will looking for these
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2017-09-10T05:53:41Z Ober: content rich
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2017-09-10T05:57:07Z netox86: very thankful
2017-09-10T05:57:46Z Ober: welcome to scheme!
2017-09-10T05:58:06Z netox86: cya the next time.. bb
2017-09-10T05:58:07Z netox86: thanks!!
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2017-09-10T08:43:14Z Filystyn: hello
2017-09-10T08:43:21Z Filystyn: anyone here used autolisp ?
2017-09-10T08:51:29Z edgar-rft: Filystyn: AutoLisp is a commercial product, therefore you'll probably not have much luck on freenode, but there is an AutoDesk User Group Forum with an AutoLisp section <http://forums.augi.com/forumdisplay.php?91-AutoLISP>
2017-09-10T09:04:25Z wasamasa: I recall entering parentheses into autocad way back ago
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2017-09-10T10:31:26Z zaoqi wrote minetest.scm
2017-09-10T10:41:35Z wasamasa: https://github.com/kanaka/mal/pull/273
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2017-09-10T11:22:20Z wasamasa: argh, just as I thought I'm done I've discovered cyclone doesn't have (scheme repl)
2017-09-10T11:24:35Z wasamasa: implementing eval without the environment specifier sure is something
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2017-09-10T12:38:18Z ecraven: wasamasa: what are you working on?
2017-09-10T12:38:24Z wasamasa: the above PR
2017-09-10T12:39:39Z wasamasa: I think I've also discovered why I had troubles getting larceny run on my r7rs code
2017-09-10T12:40:02Z wasamasa: the big difference between my code and the r7rs benchmarks presented on its website is that I use several import forms whereas it uses a single one
2017-09-10T12:40:42Z ecraven: wasamasa: I've started https://github.com/ecraven/run-on-schemes, but still very WIP
2017-09-10T12:41:08Z wasamasa: what are the odds its parser forgot that part of the spec?
2017-09-10T12:42:06Z ecraven: hm.. I've met more schemes that want only one import, I think
2017-09-10T12:43:09Z wasamasa: 7.1.6 specifies that a program consists of one or more import declarations and one or more commands or definitions
2017-09-10T12:43:14Z wasamasa: so that's clearly an error
2017-09-10T12:43:29Z wasamasa: I just didn't expect something like larceny to make that one
2017-09-10T12:43:42Z wasamasa: that's as if chez screwed up parsing numbers
2017-09-10T12:44:12Z ecraven: hm.. two successive imports on the repl work for me on larceny here
2017-09-10T12:44:24Z wasamasa: yup, that was it
2017-09-10T12:44:47Z wasamasa: the error message really is garbage
2017-09-10T12:45:02Z wasamasa: it made me believe larceny doesn't support r7rs at all
2017-09-10T12:45:55Z wasamasa: how do you even plan on supporting something like conditional imports if that doesn't work
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2017-09-10T12:50:16Z wasamasa: https://github.com/larcenists/larceny/issues/806
2017-09-10T12:53:21Z ecraven: ah, nice
2017-09-10T12:53:24Z wasamasa: my general impression of it so far is that it's truly a research project
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2017-09-10T12:53:53Z wasamasa: the readme refers to a readme-first file which refers to http://www.larcenists.org/Documentation/Documentation1.3/index.html for the manual where you need to click the heading(!) to get the manual
2017-09-10T12:54:17Z wasamasa: and in that manual, the script to compile r7rs libraries is called compile-stale (wtf)
2017-09-10T12:54:28Z wasamasa: needless to say none of these scripts are installed in /usr/bin or alike
2017-09-10T13:00:36Z wasamasa: ecraven: btw, you could update the AUR thing to 1.3 :P
2017-09-10T13:01:47Z ecraven: yea, I should ;)
2017-09-10T13:01:56Z ecraven: thanks for the pointer, I'll do that later tonight
2017-09-10T13:02:11Z wasamasa: there's just one problem
2017-09-10T13:02:13Z wasamasa: the download fails
2017-09-10T13:02:31Z wasamasa: the website doesn't like curl's user agent
2017-09-10T13:02:46Z wasamasa: this is an even greater embarassment than the website itself
2017-09-10T13:03:09Z wasamasa: it's as if they don't want anyone to package their stuff in an automated fashion
2017-09-10T13:03:39Z wasamasa: https://github.com/larcenists/larceny/issues/741
2017-09-10T13:05:50Z dpk: since Guile is supposed to support Emacs Lisp now … is there any way of invoking the Elisp reader from Scheme?
2017-09-10T13:06:26Z wasamasa: to enter elisp mode type ,L elisp
2017-09-10T13:06:36Z dpk: no, that's not what i want
2017-09-10T13:06:39Z wasamasa: it's not particularly good though
2017-09-10T13:06:48Z dpk: i am writing a program in Scheme and i want to parse Elisp
2017-09-10T13:06:52Z wasamasa: oh I see
2017-09-10T13:08:25Z wasamasa: all I can spot in its manual is compiling from a different language
2017-09-10T13:09:55Z wasamasa: http://ix.io/zIO
2017-09-10T13:09:58Z wasamasa: so close, yet so far
2017-09-10T13:10:20Z dpk: hmm
2017-09-10T13:10:39Z wasamasa: perhaps someone who actually uses guile can tell how to extract the reader procedure from there :P
2017-09-10T13:11:45Z wasamasa: (define elisp-read (language-reader elisp)) works :O
2017-09-10T13:11:55Z dpk tries it
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2017-09-10T13:12:55Z wasamasa: now you'd need to figure out how to use it because it expects an env as second argument
2017-09-10T13:13:54Z stratotanker: Hello! someone have idea on how to foreign this function (ped_unit_parse) with guile: https://www.gnu.org/software/parted/api/group__PedUnit.html#g4fe5596503ae165739dfcc59ebd0fdcb
2017-09-10T13:13:56Z wasamasa: (call-with-input-string "[1 2 3]" (lambda (port) (elisp-read po
2017-09-10T13:13:56Z wasamasa: rt '()))) ;=> #(1 2 3)
2017-09-10T13:14:08Z wasamasa: a beguiled hacker I am
2017-09-10T13:14:58Z wasamasa: dpk: out of curiosity, what are you trying to read?
2017-09-10T13:15:00Z dpk: <unnamed port>: no code for module (system base language)
2017-09-10T13:15:11Z wasamasa: your guile is outdated then?
2017-09-10T13:15:26Z wasamasa: I'm on 2.2.2
2017-09-10T13:15:44Z dpk: oh yeah
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2017-09-10T13:16:00Z dpk: despite just installing Guile 2.2, apparently 1.8 is still first in my $PATH, d'oh …
2017-09-10T13:16:16Z wasamasa: I once wrote a program in CHICKEN that parses an package-archives file as generated from elisp
2017-09-10T13:16:39Z wasamasa: it accidentally works as [] isn't invalid syntax there
2017-09-10T13:18:11Z dpk: i'm reading quail (aka input method) definitions and trying, as far as is automatically possible, to generate JSON versions of the character sequence mappings, with the intention of either creating a thing that lets them be used in other apps, or at least a bookmarklet so they can be used in any input box on any website
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2017-09-10T13:19:41Z dpk: ahh, i know why 1.8 is in my $PATH, LilyPond installed it as a dependency
2017-09-10T13:19:59Z dpk: okay, now i'm on 2.2.2
2017-09-10T13:25:48Z wasamasa: ecraven: I guess I'll look at larceny another day, can't be bothered to figure out how to run their compilation scripts
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2017-09-10T13:58:01Z dpk: wasamasa: thanks!
2017-09-10T13:58:35Z wasamasa: maybe I should ditch all these high-quality implementations and help out guile instead :>
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2017-09-10T14:22:29Z ecraven: wasamasa: guile is getting faster too all the time ;)
2017-09-10T14:22:57Z wasamasa: oh sure, I'm just poking fun of the observation that everything goes on slowly in guile land
2017-09-10T14:23:27Z wasamasa: be it compiler building times, development pace, guilemacs progress, ...
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2017-09-10T14:25:14Z ecraven: you could focus on making Edwin better :P :D
2017-09-10T14:25:30Z wasamasa: I've had two people asking me to port it to CHICKEN
2017-09-10T14:25:36Z ecraven: things like proper face support, using utf-8 internally, and so on ;)
2017-09-10T14:25:38Z wasamasa: people be crazy
2017-09-10T14:25:43Z ecraven: "it"?
2017-09-10T14:25:48Z wasamasa: edwin
2017-09-10T14:26:10Z ecraven: there was talk of edwin48, porting it to scheme48, not sure how far that went
2017-09-10T14:26:28Z wasamasa: clearly we should port edwin to r7rs instead
2017-09-10T14:26:59Z wasamasa: ah, snowfort works again
2017-09-10T14:27:00Z ecraven: provided we have a few more srfi's (for dealing with X and stuff), that might work well :D
2017-09-10T14:27:42Z wasamasa: there is a sdl2 thing there...
2017-09-10T14:28:48Z wasamasa: seems to be chibi-specific though
2017-09-10T14:29:06Z ecraven: well, it might be enough to fix the API, and just have it implemented per-system
2017-09-10T14:29:12Z ecraven: but I'd be on-board with such an effort
2017-09-10T14:29:22Z ecraven: I really like Edwin (but without colours, it is just nigh unusable to me)
2017-09-10T14:29:36Z ecraven: I have a patch adding colours to mit, but it was never merged
2017-09-10T14:31:39Z wasamasa: do you plan to extend your r7rs loader so that it supports libraries as well?
2017-09-10T14:33:36Z ecraven: which loader?
2017-09-10T14:33:48Z wasamasa: https://github.com/ecraven/run-on-schemes
2017-09-10T14:33:59Z wasamasa: huh, for some reason I thought it was for r7rs
2017-09-10T14:34:15Z ecraven: ah, not sure, the basic idea was to run something on all kind-of-r7rs-schemes for benchmarks and comparison
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2017-09-10T17:52:01Z francogrex: hi, I am looking for generic r4rs and r5rs compliance test suites
2017-09-10T17:52:34Z francogrex: do you know where can one find reliable ones?
2017-09-10T17:52:42Z francogrex: for r5 i got this: http://sisc-scheme.org/r5rs_pitfall.php
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2017-09-10T17:59:38Z ecraven: wasamasa: just wanted to update the PKGBUILD for larceny, I get the 406 too :-/
2017-09-10T18:02:30Z wasamasa: I just downloaded it manually and placed the file into the same directory as the PKGBUILD
2017-09-10T18:04:21Z ecraven: does it "build" fine?
2017-09-10T18:04:43Z wasamasa: yes
2017-09-10T18:05:06Z ecraven: thanks
2017-09-10T18:13:16Z francogrex: and this: https://www.cs.cmu.edu/Groups/AI/lang/scheme/doc/standard/tests/0.html for r4rs ?
2017-09-10T18:13:40Z wasamasa: is there such a thing for r7rs?
2017-09-10T18:23:08Z aeth: https://github.com/ashinn/chibi-scheme/blob/master/tests/r7rs-tests.scm
2017-09-10T18:23:29Z aeth: chibi-scheme also has https://github.com/ashinn/chibi-scheme/blob/master/tests/r5rs-tests.scm
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2017-09-10T18:24:35Z wasamasa: that explains why chibi ranks so well
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2017-09-10T18:28:12Z aeth: When I was looking for r7rs tests a few years ago, chibi-scheme was basically it.
2017-09-10T18:28:19Z aeth: Idk if there are newer ones by other implementations yet.
2017-09-10T18:34:57Z aeth: Is it safe to assume that it will take over 90 years to get to SRFI 1000 based on this graph? https://srfi.schemers.org/
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2017-09-10T21:06:00Z jcowan_: aeth: Certainly considering that only about two people are writing SRFIs these days.
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2017-09-11T10:32:38Z donalsd: Anyone around? I need some help.
2017-09-11T10:32:45Z ecraven: ask away
2017-09-11T10:33:42Z donalsd: Yeah, so I was trying to work on scheme since I am studying the MIT SICP lectures, I am having a problem with the heron of alexandria square root approximation.
2017-09-11T10:34:02Z donalsd: This is the error Error: (/) bad argument type: #<unspecified>
2017-09-11T10:34:13Z donalsd: https://stackoverflow.com/questions/46151781/error-bad-argument-type-unspecified-chicken-scheme-square-root-approxim
2017-09-11T10:34:15Z rudybot: http://teensy.info/CO7b3ewM7Y
2017-09-11T10:37:25Z donalsd: ecraven: Any help?
2017-09-11T10:37:43Z ecraven: a second
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2017-09-11T10:42:28Z ecraven: the way you use (define guess inside improve seems wrong
2017-09-11T10:43:20Z donalsd: ecraven: Yea, I figured. define in lisp isn't similar to "=" in other languages. Thanks!
2017-09-11T10:43:25Z ecraven: not at all
2017-09-11T10:43:36Z ecraven: also, = will lead to problems, you might get infinite loops
2017-09-11T10:43:42Z ecraven: try to check whether the error is small
2017-09-11T10:43:54Z donalsd: I have tried = and yes I did run into an infinite loop.
2017-09-11T10:44:19Z donalsd: I have fixed the problem by defining a newGuess.
2017-09-11T10:44:22Z marvin2: what makes it dissimilar to = in other languages (which languages)?
2017-09-11T10:44:46Z donalsd: marvin2: C, Java?
2017-09-11T10:44:48Z ecraven: marvin2: in that concrete code example, there's a problem with scope and shadowing of guess
2017-09-11T10:45:02Z donalsd: I am entirely new to lisp.
2017-09-11T10:46:06Z donalsd: Today is actually my first day, on that context, can anyone tell me if the SICP lectures are good enough to get me familiarized with Lisp and programming in general?
2017-09-11T10:47:04Z donalsd: I mean, I have been programming for the last 7 years, but I followed teachyourselfcs.com and thought of rebooting myself.
2017-09-11T10:53:22Z ski: SICP is more meant for learning about programming concepts, than Lisp per se, though it does teach that as well. iiuc, some people enjoy the style of SICP, while perhaps it may be too hard for some others. i suppose try it for some while and see what you think
2017-09-11T10:54:48Z ski: `define' is meant for introducing a definition of a new variable. this includes both procedures (aka functions) and other values
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2017-09-11T10:56:26Z ski: for (re)assignment of (mutable) variables, `set!' is used. this is probably most similar to how you've seen `=' used in those other languages
2017-09-11T10:59:04Z ski: as `define' can also be used to define recursive procedures (being a case of a cyclic data structure), the variable you're defining is also in scope in the expression that you're using to compute the value for the variable
2017-09-11T10:59:44Z ski: as already noted, in your case, it was shadowing the earlier variable `guess', while still not working, since it doesn't make sense here to define a number in terms of itself
2017-09-11T11:00:22Z ski: (.. or at least, Scheme doesn't have any facility for solving such recursive *equations* by default)
2017-09-11T11:00:55Z ski: donalsd : does that help ?
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2017-09-11T11:01:53Z donalsd: ski: Yes, thanks! Sorry, I was doing something else.
2017-09-11T11:01:58Z ski: no problem
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2017-09-11T11:02:32Z donalsd: Are you a regular in here? I would need some help as I go through SICP.
2017-09-11T11:02:45Z ski: btw, the convention in Lisp land is to use hyphenated identifiers, like `good-enough?' and `new-guess'
2017-09-11T11:03:01Z donalsd: The Stackoverflow community seems to be not very active in case of lisp, it seems.
2017-09-11T11:03:16Z donalsd: ski: Ahh, thanks, I have been using camelCasing all over.
2017-09-11T11:03:23Z ski: (the identifier naming procedures returning truth-values (booleans) often ends with a `?' mark)
2017-09-11T11:04:22Z donalsd: ski: Oh okay! Is there a nice lisp conventions book I can refer to?
2017-09-11T11:04:43Z donalsd: At least I wouldn't be making silly mistakes to bother you guys :)
2017-09-11T11:05:35Z ski: also, it tends to be frown upon to have "dangling close brackets" alone on a line, like the end of your `improve'. if you think it helps now to keep track of the brackts, then you can keep it for the while. but just saying
2017-09-11T11:07:17Z ski: something along the lines of "Riastradh's Lisp Style Rules" at <https://mumble.net/~campbell/scheme/style.txt> is pretty common to adhere to
2017-09-11T11:07:19Z donalsd: ski: ahh, I have removed that, it doesn't help much. You can consider that a type.
2017-09-11T11:07:42Z donalsd: ski: Thank you very much! Really appreciate all the help :D
2017-09-11T11:08:47Z donalsd: I am using Emacs to work with .scm files with the scheme mode and compiling with chicken. I hope this is a good way to go?
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2017-09-11T11:10:40Z ski: there's a #sicp channel here, not sure how active it is atm. you could try it. though SICP questions are also fine on this channel
2017-09-11T11:11:15Z ski: (if you're using a particular Scheme implementation, then there may also be a specific channel for that that could be useful)
2017-09-11T11:11:16Z donalsd: I like this channel. I am staying here for some time.
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2017-09-11T11:11:56Z ski: yeah, Emacs should hilight matching brackets for you, at least
2017-09-11T11:12:59Z ski: (`M-x show-paren-mode RET'. i believe there's also some stuff to get them colored in "rainbow colors", &c.)
2017-09-11T11:14:40Z ski: this channel is often not that lively. if you don't seem to get a response, the advice is to stick around, and see whether someone notices your question (and thinks they have time to try to answer, and think they'll be able to give useful help) after half an hour, or a couple of hours
2017-09-11T11:15:13Z ski: (that advice tends to apply to many technical, slow, IRC channels)
2017-09-11T11:15:18Z donalsd: Alrighty, no pains no gains!
2017-09-11T11:15:43Z tolja: show-paren-mode looks useful
2017-09-11T11:16:34Z ski: i can't count the number of times someone has asked a question on a channel that i could have answered .. but i only noticed it half an hour, or a couple of hours after it was asked, and the asker left the channel perhaps after five minutes ..
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2017-09-11T11:17:11Z donalsd: tolja: It's enabled by default in my case.
2017-09-11T11:17:36Z wasamasa: donalsd: FWIW, there has been a discussion on #chicken about the potential bug you've uncovered
2017-09-11T11:21:01Z ski: (there's also #emacs, for Emacs questions. if you plan on using IRC more, it may be more comfortable to look into some stand-alone IRC client, rather than using the web client. e.g. it might be easier to notice activity in a channel, or when someone highlights you)
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2017-09-11T11:21:42Z tolja: donalsd: that hasn't been the case on debian, ubuntu or arch, at least for those installations I've set up
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2017-09-11T11:36:42Z donalsd: ski:  I am pretty comfortable with emacs though.
2017-09-11T11:37:13Z ski: fair enough
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2017-09-11T11:37:56Z donalsd: tolja: Maybe because of the scheme mode? show-paren-mode has always been on for me, at least when I needed it. I am running it on Ubuntu.
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2017-09-11T11:50:54Z tolja: Should I be using some other mode for scheme then?
2017-09-11T11:53:10Z donalsd: tolja: I don't know, scheme mode seems to work for me along with flycheck I guess.
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2017-09-11T12:00:25Z dedipyaman: Hello?
2017-09-11T12:00:34Z dedipyaman: How do I change my nick back to donalsd?
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2017-09-11T12:04:09Z marvin2: /nick donalsd
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2017-09-11T12:05:37Z donalsd: It worked.
2017-09-11T12:05:43Z donalsd: Using weechat now
2017-09-11T12:10:57Z ski: <marvin2> /nick donalsd
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2017-09-11T19:43:58Z wasamasa: is it possible to run r7rs code with guile?
2017-09-11T19:44:47Z wasamasa: the repl fails me when I try to even import a thing
2017-09-11T19:45:26Z cmaloney: wasamasa: you might have better luck asking this in #guile
2017-09-11T19:45:39Z wasamasa: but this channel is bigger :D
2017-09-11T19:46:03Z cmaloney: And there might be some overlap between folks in those channels. :)
2017-09-11T19:46:19Z wasamasa: I mistakenly assumed larceny lacked proper r7rs support before, but that turned out to be a bug in their parser which refused multiple imports
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2017-09-11T19:57:16Z jcowan: The 2.2.1 Guile manual says Guile does not support R7RS.
2017-09-11T19:57:50Z wasamasa: what does ecraven do then to run his tests with guile?
2017-09-11T19:58:17Z jcowan: He has a patch for guile as for most systems
2017-09-11T19:58:41Z jcowan: Guile is said by ImplementationSupport to have partial support
2017-09-11T19:59:50Z jcowan: https://github.com/ecraven/r7rs-benchmarks/blob/master/src/Guile-prelude.scm is added to the front of the common benchmarks code
2017-09-11T19:59:53Z jcowan: when running on Guile
2017-09-11T20:00:04Z wasamasa: ah, I see
2017-09-11T20:00:22Z wasamasa: fun thing, that
2017-09-11T20:00:32Z wasamasa: won't work for me though because I need to load r7rs libraries
2017-09-11T20:00:51Z wasamasa: I guess I'll add support for running my MAL implementation on larceny and gerbil next
2017-09-11T20:01:30Z jcowan: That's why I always package r7rs libraries as two files, the library file and a simple code file that is included from there
2017-09-11T20:01:56Z jcowan: that makes, e.g. native Chicken support easy, I just provide a Chicken module file that includes the selfsame code file
2017-09-11T20:02:10Z jcowan: and perhaps add a few r7rs shim procedures
2017-09-11T20:02:26Z jcowan: (not to be confused with r7rs Shinn procedures)
2017-09-11T20:03:06Z ecraven: jcowan: I've done the same for the few chez things I wrote
2017-09-11T20:03:13Z ecraven: it is in general a good idea, I think
2017-09-11T20:03:18Z ecraven: until everything supports r7rs-large :P
2017-09-11T20:04:11Z jcowan: it is also easier to debug plain code files because any helper procedures can be invoked directly
2017-09-11T20:04:28Z wasamasa: mhh
2017-09-11T20:05:12Z wasamasa: I assumed before the reason many authors split files into the library declaration and implementation part was so that they didn't have to worry about emacs reindenting stuff incorrectly...
2017-09-11T20:05:27Z jcowan doesn't use emacs
2017-09-11T20:05:38Z wasamasa: also, not getting that dreadful hang when jumping from the outermost closing paren back
2017-09-11T20:09:23Z ecraven: wasamasa: that is also a reason for me, emacs works better on lots of top-level forms, instead of one library form
2017-09-11T20:09:26Z ecraven: jcowan: what do you use?
2017-09-11T20:09:46Z jcowan: 'ex', though I switch to vi-mode for bouncing on parens
2017-09-11T20:11:24Z jcowan: question: do Racket-style continuation marks make it easy to provide delimited continuations?  (I don't really understand either idea very well)
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2017-09-11T20:15:15Z ecraven: wasamasa: hm.. edwin is 60k lines of Scheme (not counting any underlying mit code). that'd be quite a bit of code to port to r7rs :-/
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2017-09-11T20:15:28Z wasamasa: ecraven: this was why I rejected the idea
2017-09-11T20:15:29Z ecraven: sloccount guesses 15 person-months
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2017-09-11T20:15:37Z wasamasa: too much work for too little benefit
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2017-09-11T20:16:05Z ecraven: wasamasa: well, I would definitely use a decent emacs-clone written and extensible in Scheme
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2017-09-11T20:16:15Z ecraven: but to reach the critical mass needed to sustain it would be very hard, I'd guess
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2017-09-11T20:17:19Z jcowan: Well, hopefully Guile-Emacs will eventually surface, which will allow people to write extensions in Guile as well as Elisp.
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2017-09-11T20:17:48Z ecraven: Riastradh: do you happen to know how to bind C-. and C-' in Edwin? how do I type those? C-h k says C-^ ., but using that as '(#\C-^ #\.) (or similar) does not work
2017-09-11T20:18:01Z ecraven: jcowan: which is guile, not r7rs :-/
2017-09-11T20:18:17Z jcowan: And perhaps by that time guile will be r7rs-compliant
2017-09-11T20:18:39Z jcowan: I think those are likely to happen sooner than a rewrite of emacs in R7RS Scheme surfaces
2017-09-11T20:18:49Z jcowan: s/surfaces//
2017-09-11T20:18:51Z ecraven: that is indeed probable
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2017-09-11T20:29:35Z ecraven: maybe we should start a task force, to try to get the simple parts of R7RS into the major Schemes
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2017-09-11T20:32:18Z stratotanker: Hello! someone have idea on how to foreign this function (ped_unit_parse) with guile: https://www.gnu.org/software/parted/api/group__PedUnit.html#g4fe5596503ae165739dfcc59ebd0fdcb
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2017-09-11T20:34:48Z ecraven: jcowan: https://ecraven.github.io/r7rs-coverage/stats.html was a start at finding out which r7rs things are obviously missing
2017-09-11T20:34:57Z ecraven: it's been dormant for some time
2017-09-11T20:35:00Z civodul: stratotanker: i think there are already Guile bindings for Parted somewhere, no?
2017-09-11T20:35:17Z civodul: other than that, you might want to try #guile :-)
2017-09-11T20:35:38Z stratotanker: okay civodul
2017-09-11T20:35:42Z stratotanker: thanks
2017-09-11T20:35:47Z civodul: yw!
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2017-09-11T20:43:10Z stratotanker: civodul, I search for libparted guile bindings but I don't found
2017-09-11T20:44:13Z civodul: ISTR GNU fdisk had this, but maybe that's outdated
2017-09-11T20:45:18Z stratotanker: civodul shh ;)
2017-09-11T20:46:20Z stratotanker: Anyway current Gnu
2017-09-11T20:47:31Z stratotanker: GNU fdisk (I mean 2.0) does not have libparted bindings for guile
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2017-09-11T21:22:12Z Riastradh: ecraven: No idea offhand, sorry!
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2017-09-12T05:40:51Z ecraven: Riastradh: thanks ;)
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2017-09-12T06:06:55Z ecraven: is there a way to start larceny in batch mode? for e.g. unbound names, it jumps into the debugger and hangs there
2017-09-12T06:08:46Z ecraven: I'm running it as larceny -r7rs -program and it still enters the debugger
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2017-09-12T08:15:02Z Murii: A real number is defined as a float or double?
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2017-09-12T08:20:59Z ski: (neither ?)
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2017-09-12T08:28:39Z pjb: Murii: floating point numbers are a subset of ℚ.
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2017-09-12T08:30:05Z Murii: what I mean is: If you were to write the C equivalent of real numbers from scheme you would write them as floats or double?
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2017-09-12T08:30:18Z pjb: Murii: there are no real number in C.
2017-09-12T08:30:25Z pjb: (unless you use reallib, of course).
2017-09-12T08:30:42Z pjb: Perhaps you want to user reallib and you're asking about FFI?
2017-09-12T08:31:43Z Murii: need to check on that
2017-09-12T08:33:20Z Murii: I don't see why I should use reallib in this case
2017-09-12T08:33:48Z pjb: Now, the question is how real is implemented by your scheme implementation. You can know if it uses reallib or if it uses floating point number by using the exact? / inexact? predicates.
2017-09-12T08:34:26Z pjb: But the point here is that in r5rs, you don't get to choose a floating point type, they're not provided.  You just use real, and let the implementation do whatever it wants.
2017-09-12T08:34:48Z Murii: ah
2017-09-12T08:35:59Z pjb: It seems to be the same in r7rs…
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2017-09-12T08:38:57Z pjb: Now, I must confess that I know no implementation using reallib, unfortunately.  They all implement real as floating point numbers (probably 64-bit ieee754 floating point numbers).
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2017-09-12T09:30:47Z ecraven: pjb: most schemes I've investigated use 64 bit internally, but can interact with 32 bit ones via the FFI
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2017-09-12T11:29:49Z ecraven: does chibi plan to implement the r7rs-large names for libraries? (or any other Scheme)?
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2017-09-12T12:27:04Z ecraven: does any scheme support all unicode digits for string->number?
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2017-09-12T12:35:11Z Murii: so how exactly does cond work like?
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2017-09-12T12:42:30Z ecraven: go through the clauses, run the first that evaluates to true
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2017-09-12T17:01:54Z ecraven: foof`: any plans on implementing the Red Docket names for libraries? (scheme lists) for srfi 1, for example?
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2017-09-12T17:12:36Z vyzo: fellas, a small annuncement
2017-09-12T17:12:46Z vyzo: as of a few minutes ago, gerbil has first class support for r7rs in the interpreter
2017-09-12T17:13:02Z vyzo: you can just start gxi with `gxi --lang r7rs` and get an R7RS in Gerbil support
2017-09-12T17:13:17Z vyzo: repl i mean
2017-09-12T17:13:22Z vyzo: have fun :)
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2017-09-12T18:06:29Z ecraven: very nice!
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2017-09-12T19:13:07Z takitus: "first class support for r7rs": I can return scheme reports from procedures now?
2017-09-12T19:14:20Z vyzo: lol
2017-09-12T19:14:31Z vyzo: that would be a breakthrough :)
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2017-09-12T19:29:01Z jcowan_: takitus: If you define a report type with define-record-type, yes
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2017-09-12T19:49:26Z takitus: jcowan_: Of course. :)
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2017-09-12T20:22:40Z JohnTalent: There a room for scheme game developers?
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2017-09-12T20:25:42Z gwatt: Someone made a game library for guile
2017-09-12T20:25:45Z gwatt: https://dthompson.us/guile-2d---a-2d-game-development-framework-for-gnu-guile.html
2017-09-12T20:26:53Z gwatt: Though it looks like the last commit was over a year ago: https://git.dthompson.us/sly.git
2017-09-12T20:27:59Z takitus: "Guile-2d is a framework, which means that it has some opinion about what the right way to do things is." Hmm...
2017-09-12T20:29:02Z gwatt: some frameworks are more opinionated than others
2017-09-12T20:29:03Z takitus: All game libraries seem to be designed for programmers who want to be railroaded.
2017-09-12T20:29:31Z gwatt shrugs
2017-09-12T20:30:38Z gwatt: You could probably say that about a fair number of libraries in general
2017-09-12T20:30:39Z takitus: I guess it's difficult to create something minimal in such a totally wide-open area.
2017-09-12T20:31:12Z gwatt: and to be fair, the goal of game programmers is usually "make a game"
2017-09-12T20:31:17Z takitus: gwatt: Yeah. The more specific the library's function, the less that seems true, however.
2017-09-12T20:31:27Z gwatt: not "rewrite game engines over and over again"
2017-09-12T20:31:33Z takitus: gwatt: True.
2017-09-12T20:32:35Z takitus: gwatt: Thanks for the link. It's an interesting project.
2017-09-12T20:32:52Z gwatt: np.
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2017-09-12T20:40:44Z daviid:  https://dthompson.us/projects/chickadee.html
2017-09-12T20:41:56Z davexunit: gwatt: yeah, I sort of gave up on Sly and instead focus effort on Chickadee.
2017-09-12T20:42:26Z davexunit: I noticed a bunch of people wanting something lower levle
2017-09-12T20:42:28Z davexunit: level*
2017-09-12T20:42:50Z davexunit: but still easy to get started with, so I started Chickadee which is a lot simpler.
2017-09-12T20:42:56Z davexunit: lots to do still, though.
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2017-09-12T20:47:11Z daviid: gwatt: ^^ "Chickadee is a gama development toolkit for Guile ...", for info
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2017-09-12T20:48:38Z takitus: Cool
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2017-09-12T20:50:16Z davexunit: I haven't much time/motivation lately, but I have a branch with some rendering engine improvements that needs to get merged.  I was beginning to dabble with 3D asset loading.
2017-09-12T20:53:12Z davexunit: if I have time I may participate in the next lisp game jam https://itch.io/jam/lisp-game-jam-2017-hard-mode
2017-09-12T20:53:31Z davexunit: it's a good way to find areas that need improvement
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2017-09-12T20:59:36Z ecraven: JohnTalent: #lispgames
2017-09-12T21:00:40Z wasamasa: vyzo: yey
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2017-09-12T22:21:53Z happy_gnu[m]: Does anyone has a suggestion for a math book/course for SICP 🤔
2017-09-12T22:26:42Z wasamasa: you don't need a math course for that
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2017-09-12T22:27:15Z wasamasa: having completed school and a healthy interest in numbers helps though
2017-09-12T22:28:00Z mejja: a healthy interest in numbers?
2017-09-12T22:28:16Z wasamasa: yeah, kids have that before going to school, then it dies
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2017-09-12T22:47:03Z jcowan_: I've been thinking about a variant of SRFI 10 that uses (.foo bar baz) instead of #,(foo bar baz)
2017-09-12T22:47:07Z jcowan_: where the dot is merely conventional
2017-09-12T22:47:46Z jcowan_: in this way, you can use it when constructing code without having to stringify and then call (read)
2017-09-12T22:47:58Z jcowan_: and it still works for constructing data
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2017-09-13T01:18:59Z jonas___: Any idea how I screwed this up? https://pastebin.com/iwN3yXdq
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2017-09-13T02:10:49Z gwatt: need to call (apply compose (cdr proc-list))
2017-09-13T02:10:54Z gwatt: in the else case
2017-09-13T02:11:08Z gwatt: oh, he's gone
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2017-09-13T05:00:27Z ecraven: jcowan_: why do we need a . there? why not do what racket does (iirc), just print any structure using its constructor?
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2017-09-13T06:11:51Z ecraven: should this be #t according to r7rs? (error-object? (call/cc (lambda (k) (lambda () (with-exception-handler (lambda (c) (k c)) (lambda () (error "foo")))))))
2017-09-13T06:13:08Z ecraven: ah, one (lambda () ...) too much in there
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2017-09-13T06:15:27Z JohnTalent: Why do Lisp always get mention and Scheme never does? Is it because of Hygienic Macros in Scheme? (Too much overhead?)
2017-09-13T06:15:56Z ecraven: JohnTalent: Scheme is a Lisp, I'd say
2017-09-13T06:16:13Z ecraven: just like Clojure
2017-09-13T06:21:20Z JohnTalent: ecraven: okay so because Lisp is the grand daddy it gets naming rights in general language speaks.
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2017-09-13T06:22:14Z JohnTalent: I am just learning Hygienic marcros. They are nice overall. I just have to get use to the boilerplate functionality.
2017-09-13T06:23:54Z ecraven: JohnTalent: no, there is no programming language called "Lisp" any more. there's Common Lisp, but most of the others have been lost in the depths of time ;)
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2017-09-13T06:27:06Z JohnTalent: ZIL is a Lisp.
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2017-09-13T06:54:46Z ecraven: why does r7rs not include with-input-from-port, with-input-from-string and with-input-from-bytevector, as well as the respective -output- procedures?
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2017-09-13T06:55:22Z JohnTalent: back.
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2017-09-13T07:03:31Z JohnTalent: well?
2017-09-13T07:03:54Z ecraven: well what?
2017-09-13T07:04:27Z JohnTalent: whats with the well what?
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2017-09-13T07:05:31Z ecraven: you asked "well?" and I asked "well what?"  ;)
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2017-09-13T07:08:29Z JohnTalent: okay. later.
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2017-09-13T07:12:18Z JohnTalent: well?
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2017-09-13T08:55:21Z ecraven: hm.. larceny is slooow to start if called with -r7rs
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2017-09-13T09:53:47Z ecraven: does r7rs specify whether vectors are self-evaluating or must be quoted?
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2017-09-13T10:25:00Z ecraven: 6.8 says self-evaluating, as does 6.9 for bytevectors
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2017-09-13T11:10:36Z jcowan_: ecraven: It's not about printing an object, it's about having a way of expressing a literal for it that will work even in data
2017-09-13T11:11:07Z jcowan_: i.e. that `read` will understand
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2017-09-13T12:05:22Z ecraven: I think I understand that
2017-09-13T12:08:36Z ecraven: shouldn't write-string actually be display-string? as it does what display does, not what write does?
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2017-09-13T15:55:16Z Murii|osx: Do you guys code in OOP style ?
2017-09-13T15:55:23Z Murii|osx: Or in a functional way?
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2017-09-13T15:57:30Z wasamasa: ah, low-effort trolling
2017-09-13T15:57:57Z ecraven: Murii|osx: either, depending on the actual need ;)
2017-09-13T15:58:01Z ecraven: sometimes both :P
2017-09-13T15:58:27Z Murii|osx: ecraven can you show me a small demo of oop style code?
2017-09-13T15:58:43Z Murii|osx: something very basic from where I can get the idea
2017-09-13T15:59:01Z ecraven: not very basic, but an actual useful OO system in Scheme: http://wiki.call-cc.org/eggref/4/tinyclos
2017-09-13T15:59:58Z Murii|osx: Ugh, do you think it's possible to only use define and lambda to create an OO system?
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2017-09-13T16:00:32Z wasamasa: sure, but it won't be as convenient
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2017-09-13T16:00:55Z Murii|osx: wasamasa it's fine
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2017-09-13T17:09:36Z ecraven: Murii|osx: look for Les Langages Lisp (Lisp in Small Pieces), that introduces several object systems
2017-09-13T17:10:43Z Murii|osx: I'm looking for methods which involve lambda and define because that's the only way you can define functions in my scheme like lang
2017-09-13T17:10:47Z Murii|osx: :)
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2017-09-13T17:14:03Z Ober: Murii|osx: so you're the one who wrote their own scheme! glad to meet you!
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2017-09-13T17:14:35Z Murii|osx: Glad to be here
2017-09-13T17:14:42Z ecraven: Murii|osx: http://wiki.c2.com/?ClosuresAndObjectsAreEquivalent
2017-09-13T17:14:50Z ecraven: Murii|osx: http://community.schemewiki.org/?object-systems
2017-09-13T17:15:04Z ecraven: ftp://ftp.cs.indiana.edu/pub/scheme-repository/doc/pubs/swob.txt
2017-09-13T17:15:15Z ecraven: and lots more, just search the web for "scheme closure object"
2017-09-13T17:16:27Z Murii|osx: the wiki.c2.com article seems nice so far
2017-09-13T17:17:59Z wasamasa: https://letoverlambda.com/index.cl/guest/chap2.html
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2017-09-13T17:22:31Z Murii|osx: wasamasa even better :D
2017-09-13T17:22:45Z wasamasa: this should be trivial to translate to scheme
2017-09-13T17:23:11Z wasamasa: I like how the author extends it to classes
2017-09-13T17:24:04Z wasamasa: http://okmij.org/ftp/Scheme/#pure-oo
2017-09-13T17:24:52Z wasamasa: this one does things a bit differently and reminds me of prototypes
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2017-09-13T23:39:19Z JohnTalent: Can you have unhygienic macros in Scheme?
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2017-09-14T07:36:29Z ecraven: jcowan: was there a rationale for making equal
2017-09-14T07:36:42Z ecraven: equal? having to detect circularity, and not including a faster non-checking equal?
2017-09-14T07:36:44Z ecraven: in r7rs?
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2017-09-14T10:03:16Z gwatt: ecraven: I assume because r6rs mandated it as well
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2017-09-14T19:42:45Z ecraven: hm.. I'm guessing there's no way to selectively turn off the special treatment of : in kawa?
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2017-09-14T20:03:50Z gwatt: probs not
2017-09-14T20:06:22Z ecraven: found a way around it ;)
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2017-09-14T20:14:22Z gwatt: how?
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2017-09-14T20:26:34Z ecraven: run the symbol through read ;)
2017-09-14T20:27:03Z ecraven: I have to run them through read when they come from the network, so I also run them through read locally, producing the same result in both cases
2017-09-14T20:27:05Z ecraven: well, equal? results
2017-09-14T20:28:10Z gwatt: ah
2017-09-14T20:28:22Z ecraven: not ideal at all, but works
2017-09-14T20:28:36Z gwatt: Does Kawa support |literal identifiers| ?
2017-09-14T20:28:52Z ecraven: probably, but I cannot change what I receive over the network, so there's no way to change that
2017-09-14T20:29:09Z gwatt: sure
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2017-09-15T17:10:24Z ecraven: any cyclonistas here?
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2017-09-15T17:37:55Z justinethier: ecraven: cyclonista?
2017-09-15T17:40:23Z ecraven: justinethier: hey ;)
2017-09-15T17:40:26Z ecraven: looking for you!
2017-09-15T17:40:40Z ecraven: working on my swank, and I thought I'd include cyclone. kind of works, however, I've run into the following problem:
2017-09-15T17:40:53Z ecraven: (write "\"foobar\"") writes ""foobar"", instead of "\"foobar\""
2017-09-15T17:40:54Z justinethier: :)
2017-09-15T17:40:57Z ecraven: it should escape the quotes, but doesn't
2017-09-15T17:41:04Z ecraven: I've raised a github issue ;)
2017-09-15T17:41:59Z justinethier: funny you mention that
2017-09-15T17:42:07Z justinethier: wasamasa found the same issue :)
2017-09-15T17:42:10Z ecraven: ;)
2017-09-15T17:42:21Z ecraven: otherwise, things seem to work fine, I have a working SLIME repl ;)
2017-09-15T17:43:33Z justinethier: this is fixed on master if you want to do a build from there
2017-09-15T17:43:42Z ecraven: will do right now, thank you
2017-09-15T17:44:00Z ecraven: ah, no PKGBUILD for that yet, I'll make one
2017-09-15T17:44:01Z justinethier: no problem
2017-09-15T17:44:10Z justinethier: wait, try this one: https://github.com/justinethier/cyclone/issues/224
2017-09-15T17:44:31Z ecraven: ah, nice!
2017-09-15T17:45:17Z justinethier: I suppose I should add that PKGBUILD, and release 0.6.3 at some point here
2017-09-15T17:45:49Z ecraven: justinethier: how do I get a mutable top-level environment? just using (setup-environment)?
2017-09-15T17:46:02Z ecraven: it seems I cannot access *global-environment* from inside an r7rs library
2017-09-15T17:47:16Z justinethier: hmm
2017-09-15T17:47:22Z ecraven: relatedly, how do I get a list of all defined environments from inside cyclone?
2017-09-15T17:49:06Z justinethier: you can use create-environment though that just builds on top of the global env
2017-09-15T17:49:46Z ecraven: that's ok, I just need some environment that I can eval things in, to run the SLIME repl
2017-09-15T17:50:05Z justinethier: There is no way to get a list of all env's though
2017-09-15T17:50:40Z ecraven: it's not exposed, or there actually is no way?
2017-09-15T17:50:57Z ecraven: how would I get a list of all bindings in an environment I already have?
2017-09-15T17:51:52Z justinethier: there is no way to get a list of all env's, the create/setup env functions just build and return a new environment object
2017-09-15T17:51:59Z justinethier: let's see...
2017-09-15T17:52:42Z ecraven: is there a way to get a list of all known library environments? if I import (scheme write), it must somehow find that, right? or is that just constructed on-the-fly?
2017-09-15T17:54:14Z justinethier: There are functions in (scheme cyclone util) to work with environments - env:all-variables will retrieve all of the bindings
2017-09-15T17:54:26Z ecraven: justinethier: great, thank you!
2017-09-15T17:54:45Z justinethier: that would just be constructed as needed - the import would load the necessary objects from (scheme write)
2017-09-15T17:54:59Z justinethier: no problem :)
2017-09-15T17:55:37Z justinethier: if you think there is a deficiency please let me know or put in an issue
2017-09-15T17:55:55Z ecraven: will do, thanks for the help!
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2017-09-15T17:58:41Z justinethier: glad to help
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2017-09-15T18:01:31Z ecraven: justinethier: one more thing, is there a way to directly run a library, without compiling it?
2017-09-15T18:02:21Z justinethier: ecraven: no, unfortunately. overall Cyclone could probably be more dynamic do to things like this
2017-09-15T18:02:55Z justinethier: one alternative for your own libraries is to include a .scm file. then you could load that file from the repl
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2017-09-15T18:10:10Z wasamasa: I considered handing in one more cyclone bug but then realized that it most likely doesn't support the libck ubuntu xenial offers
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2017-09-15T18:11:27Z ecraven: well, one thing it doesn't do (and many others don't either), is read-char ü correctly
2017-09-15T18:11:41Z ecraven: or any non-single-byte utf-8 "character"
2017-09-15T18:11:48Z Ober: wasamasa: see #gerbil-scheme, would love to see how fast your mal is there
2017-09-15T18:12:18Z wasamasa: Ober: I tried with racket and larceny yesterday, what I got running on racket was fast, but I couldn't fit it into the existing makefile
2017-09-15T18:12:24Z justinethier: good point, those are not supported at the moment
2017-09-15T18:12:26Z wasamasa: Ober: larceny's toolchain is just screwed up
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2017-09-15T18:12:51Z wasamasa: Ober: I might tackle gerbil if it supports building and loading of user-defined libraries in r7rs mode
2017-09-15T18:13:14Z Ober: ahh. yeah r7rs... right now vyzo, the gerbil creator is between gigs and moving fast on improvements from ecravens benchmarks
2017-09-15T18:13:39Z Ober: vyzo will probably be more than willing to accomodate if not
2017-09-15T18:13:46Z wasamasa: yeah, I'm sure of that :>
2017-09-15T18:13:48Z ecraven: he also added a few more r7rs things, I'll raise an issue with the missing pieces according to https://ecraven.github.io/r7rs-coverage/, they will probably be fixed soon too
2017-09-15T18:13:57Z wasamasa: but first I need to build gerbil on arch and inside a docker container
2017-09-15T18:14:04Z ecraven: so it seems kawa and chibi will be joined by gerbil as an (almost entirely) conforming r7rs-small implementation
2017-09-15T18:14:15Z justinethier: wasamasa: what bug was that?
2017-09-15T18:14:23Z ecraven: wasamasa: aur gerbil-scheme-git works fine for me on arch
2017-09-15T18:14:40Z wasamasa: justinethier: it failed building with repository libck in an ubuntu xenial docker container
2017-09-15T18:14:51Z wasamasa: justinethier: I then built libck as instructed in the README
2017-09-15T18:14:57Z wasamasa: ecraven: alright
2017-09-15T18:15:04Z justinethier: hmm
2017-09-15T18:15:24Z justinethier: do you know what version failed? I suppose it must be an older one?
2017-09-15T18:15:44Z wasamasa: "Package: libck-dev (0.4.4-1) [universe]"
2017-09-15T18:16:55Z justinethier: that's pretty old...
2017-09-15T18:17:07Z wasamasa: yeah, hence why I decided against filing a bug :D
2017-09-15T18:17:10Z justinethier: do you have the compiler error?
2017-09-15T18:17:16Z justinethier: yeah
2017-09-15T18:17:38Z wasamasa: I can try repro it
2017-09-15T18:18:37Z justinethier: ok, you are able without too much effort
2017-09-15T18:18:42Z wasamasa: sure, it's docker :D
2017-09-15T18:18:50Z wasamasa: I just need to wait for a minute or two
2017-09-15T18:19:06Z justinethier: no promises on a fix but I'll look into it
2017-09-15T18:19:08Z justinethier: sure
2017-09-15T18:19:15Z wasamasa: the longest part is cloning the bootstrap repo
2017-09-15T18:25:33Z wasamasa: http://ix.io/zXp
2017-09-15T18:25:37Z wasamasa: justinethier: ^
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2017-09-15T18:45:39Z justinethier: wasamasa: thanks, looks like the _ptr functions were returning a (void *) instead of (uintptr_t *)... hmm...
2017-09-15T18:46:03Z wasamasa: justinethier: I'm not sure whether it's worth working around that just so that the last supported ubuntu version works
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2017-09-15T18:47:20Z justinethier: maybe not. for now I won't put an issue in for it, if it becomes a problem for you please feel free to do so
2017-09-15T18:47:45Z wasamasa: it's not, building your own libck is trivial
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2017-09-15T19:12:48Z Ober: wasamasa: you found kawa to be fast for loading and in general? nice. I should have looked a it
2017-09-15T19:13:15Z wasamasa: well, that's compared to clojure and scala
2017-09-15T19:13:30Z Ober: ahh :P
2017-09-15T19:13:41Z wasamasa: I found it nice that there's hardly a penalty for not compiling things upfront
2017-09-15T19:13:53Z Ober: nice
2017-09-15T19:14:09Z wasamasa: if I load up MAL from source files, I'll have to wait a second longer than when loading from .class files
2017-09-15T19:14:13Z Ober: will keep that option for using scheme at work. "java dsl with jar"
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2017-09-15T19:14:40Z wasamasa: the big problem is that once you go the compiled route you'll need to learn how the classpath works and construct it manually
2017-09-15T19:14:49Z wasamasa: that's one of the tasks cider automates for clojure
2017-09-15T19:15:23Z wasamasa: I've confirmed with its author that it's also one of the most time-intensive tasks during boot of a repl that comes loaded with it
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2017-09-15T19:17:51Z wasamasa: creation of .jar files doesn't work for me either, so I'd have to debug this for deployments
2017-09-15T19:18:08Z wasamasa: finally, creation of uberjars/fatjars would be the most convenient
2017-09-15T19:30:33Z ecraven: I've written a simple opengl demo in kawa that doesn't cons at all, it's the only lisp-on-the-jvm that is even remotely useful for writing android code, because it doesn't need 15 seconds to start up
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2017-09-15T19:32:13Z Ober: wow
2017-09-15T19:32:18Z Ober: much nicer than I assumed
2017-09-15T19:32:36Z Ober: now if gambit's universal java backend worked for me
2017-09-15T19:32:52Z ecraven: I wrote a handful of android apps a few years back, not an unpleasant experience
2017-09-15T19:33:04Z Ober: all on kawa?
2017-09-15T19:33:06Z Ober: nice
2017-09-15T19:33:22Z ecraven: yea. I even used sxml to generate the xml files for layout
2017-09-15T19:33:35Z ecraven: if I had to work on java, I'd use kawa if possible
2017-09-15T19:34:16Z ecraven: if you know what you do (and I mostly don't ;) you can write code that compiles to plain java, which can be nice for performance on android
2017-09-15T19:42:32Z jonaslund: didn't bigloo have a java backend ?
2017-09-15T19:42:40Z wasamasa: uhuh
2017-09-15T19:42:46Z wasamasa: but it's not r7rs :P
2017-09-15T19:43:20Z ecraven: does anyone here know whether larceny includes tcp server socket code?
2017-09-15T19:43:35Z ecraven: there's something in lib/Standard/socket.sch, but no idea how to load/import/require that :-/
2017-09-15T19:43:41Z jonaslund: oh sorry, i didn't think any JVM scheme's were alive :P
2017-09-15T19:43:50Z ecraven: quite a few are ;)
2017-09-15T19:44:00Z ecraven: but out of the ones I tried a few years back, kawa was the one I found best
2017-09-15T19:45:06Z Ober: that "Common Lisp On Java Using Rich's Experiment" is pretty slow
2017-09-15T19:46:34Z daviid: kawa is the best for me too, but I only tried clojure and kawa
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2017-09-15T19:53:03Z ecraven: using some kind of tree shaker, like proguard, you can also remove all of the kawa code you don't need, so you get really small executables, if you take care
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2017-09-15T20:23:32Z ecraven: does anyone here know how I can use normal require'd libraries in larceny when running with -r7rs?
2017-09-15T20:23:46Z ecraven: I want to use (require 'socket), but it seems the names aren't imported when I just do that :-/
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2017-09-15T20:32:41Z wasamasa: you'd need some equivalent import form, I wouldn't be surprised if (import (larceny socket)) does it
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2017-09-15T20:37:30Z Reddalef: hi
2017-09-15T20:38:29Z Reddalef: after loading a file via (load "filename.scm") in mit-scheme interpreter , can I somehow refer to this filename later?
2017-09-15T20:40:29Z wasamasa: if you need to refer to it, why not put it into a variable?
2017-09-15T20:43:23Z Reddalef: wasamasa what I want to do, is to have function (r) which will reload file, and I want to put (r)'s definition in .scheme.init file, so I need to know if I can refer to arbitrary file what has been loaded
2017-09-15T20:44:28Z wasamasa: if it's your own function that does reloading, what stops it from saving the filename into a variable?
2017-09-15T20:52:12Z Reddalef: wasamasa: the reloading function doesnt take a filename, it should somehow know in advance which file has been loaded recently and it'll reload it
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2017-09-15T21:11:28Z ecraven: Reddalef: you can just define your own load, which does this
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2017-09-15T21:14:50Z Reddalef: ecraven: yeah, i already figured it. thanks anyway
2017-09-15T21:16:56Z Reddalef: ecraven: last question. Can i somehow programm a shortcut, so if I press F5 on keyboard, it'll automatically evaluate (r) function?
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2017-09-15T21:22:29Z wasamasa: that depends entirely on your editor
2017-09-15T21:22:35Z wasamasa: let me guess, edwin?
2017-09-15T21:29:47Z Reddalef: wasamasa: no, i actually modify code via vim, and reload it in mit-scheme interpreter after every modification
2017-09-15T21:30:24Z wasamasa: the thing listening to keypresses is your text editor
2017-09-15T21:30:58Z Reddalef: so interpeter can't listen to keypresses?
2017-09-15T21:31:09Z Reddalef: like special keys
2017-09-15T21:31:23Z wasamasa: let's just say that it's unusual
2017-09-15T21:31:33Z wasamasa: the interpreter's job isn't to do that kind of thing
2017-09-15T21:31:40Z wasamasa: unless of course it's emacs
2017-09-15T21:32:57Z Reddalef: nah, just regular mit-scheme running in the terminal
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2017-09-15T21:44:41Z takitus: Reddalef: If you're in the market for an interpreter that listens to your keypresses, there are probably some governments happy to oblige :)
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2017-09-16T03:27:29Z netox86: hi!
2017-09-16T03:27:48Z netox86: one question here..
2017-09-16T03:28:49Z netox86: to follow the book SICP what tools I need?
2017-09-16T03:29:08Z netox86: DrRacket?
2017-09-16T03:29:36Z netox86: Portacle??
2017-09-16T03:30:12Z netox86: somebody can help me?
2017-09-16T03:30:32Z jcowan_: netox86: Racket is a good choice for SICP.
2017-09-16T03:41:39Z netox86: ok, i some confused
2017-09-16T03:42:29Z netox86: CLisp is for other dialect, and SBCL too?
2017-09-16T03:43:27Z netox86: are very similar...
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2017-09-16T03:47:16Z jcowan_: Yes, those are Common Lisp, not Scheme (a related but definitely not identical language)
2017-09-16T03:51:39Z netox86: Thx jcowan, I go for DrRacket...
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2017-09-16T04:06:21Z pjb: netox86: I would rather advise mit-scheme (with it's edwin emacs clone running with X11).
2017-09-16T04:06:35Z pjb: but DrRacket can be used too, just like any other r5rs scheme.
2017-09-16T04:08:04Z netox86: I am a complete noob in this
2017-09-16T04:10:27Z netox86: Are you tallking about this? https://www.gnu.org/software/mit-scheme/
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2017-09-16T04:20:57Z pjb: netox86: yes
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2017-09-16T11:57:35Z Murii|linux: hey, if I have a list like this: (50 250 150) how can I get the "250" value ?
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2017-09-16T11:57:57Z francogrex: hi I am trying something (wrong): (define (addname name) (let ((sym (string->symbol name))) (define sym name)))
2017-09-16T11:58:26Z ijp: you can't do a top level define from within a function
2017-09-16T11:58:27Z francogrex: hoping that: (addname "red") would result in defining a variable red
2017-09-16T11:58:34Z pie_: Murii|linux,
2017-09-16T11:58:36Z pie_: oops
2017-09-16T11:59:02Z ski: rudybot: eval (car (cdr '(50 250 150)))  ; Murii|linux
2017-09-16T11:59:03Z ijp: that define is local to the let
2017-09-16T11:59:03Z rudybot: ski: ; Value: 250
2017-09-16T11:59:14Z ski: rudybot: eval (cadr '(50 250 150))
2017-09-16T11:59:15Z rudybot: ski: ; Value: 250
2017-09-16T11:59:19Z francogrex: ijp: ok is there no way for a global? even with macros?
2017-09-16T11:59:24Z Murii|linux: (car (car list)) -> 250 ?
2017-09-16T11:59:35Z ski: nope, see above
2017-09-16T11:59:46Z ijp: some schemes have a function like module-define!, but I would strongly suggest not doing that under most circumstances
2017-09-16T11:59:53Z Murii|linux: ski, ok, it worked
2017-09-16T11:59:55Z Murii|linux: thanks!
2017-09-16T11:59:55Z ski: Murii|linux : do you understand how lists are formed, out of "cons" cells ?
2017-09-16T12:00:00Z ijp: francogrex: macros work differently to regular code
2017-09-16T12:00:12Z Murii|linux: ski it's just that I wrote some code bad and now I get it
2017-09-16T12:00:39Z ski: rudybot: eval (car (cdr '(50 . (250 . (150 . ())))))
2017-09-16T12:00:39Z rudybot: ski: ; Value: 250
2017-09-16T12:01:06Z ijp: a macro can expand into a definition, but depending on the macro context that may be a local or top-level definition.
2017-09-16T12:01:25Z ijp: rudybot:  (define-syntax-rule (define42 var) (define var 42))
2017-09-16T12:01:37Z rudybot: ijp: error: with-limit: out of time
2017-09-16T12:01:51Z ski: (missing literals list ?)
2017-09-16T12:01:52Z ijp: rudybot:  (define-syntax-rule (define42 var) (define var 42))
2017-09-16T12:02:02Z rudybot: ijp: your sandbox is ready
2017-09-16T12:02:04Z rudybot: ijp: Done.
2017-09-16T12:02:19Z ijp: rudybot:  (define42 overused-hitchhikers-meme)
2017-09-16T12:02:20Z rudybot: ijp: Done.
2017-09-16T12:02:24Z ijp: rudybot:  overused-hitchhikers-meme
2017-09-16T12:02:24Z rudybot: ijp: ; Value: 42
2017-09-16T12:02:46Z francogrex: (define-macro (addname name) (let ((sym (string->symbol name))) `(define ,sym ,name)))
2017-09-16T12:03:07Z francogrex: this seems to work at least in some (older) scheme
2017-09-16T12:03:30Z ski: (as long as `define' isn't shadowed)
2017-09-16T12:03:38Z francogrex: yes
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2017-09-16T13:21:39Z pjb: Murii|linux: (define (second list) (car (cdr (cdr list))))  (second '(50 250 150))
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2017-09-16T13:28:58Z DKordic: Wouldn't that be `third'?
2017-09-16T13:29:42Z wasamasa: Murii|linux: do you want the third or last list element?
2017-09-16T13:33:30Z ijp: I never liked having the synonyms first/second/third/etc. because they conflict with our 0-indexing for -ref procedures
2017-09-16T13:35:01Z Murii|linux: wasamasa, that would be car(cdr(cdr())) :)
2017-09-16T13:35:03Z Murii|linux: thanks for the help
2017-09-16T13:35:53Z DKordic: Murii|linux: ENOSENSE
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2017-09-16T13:43:37Z pjb: Murii|linux: function call is denoted by (  Notice how ( is like C is like Call.
2017-09-16T13:44:00Z pjb: Call car on '(a b c)  = ( car '(a b c) )
2017-09-16T13:44:47Z pjb: Murii|linux: draw the little boxes for the cons cells (pairs).  The first element is in the car of the first cons cell. The second element is in the car of the second cons cell.
2017-09-16T13:45:15Z pjb: Murii|linux: cdr let you go from one cons cell to the other. So when you have a list, you have a reference to the first cons cell. To get the second, you have to call (cdr list).
2017-09-16T13:45:41Z pjb: Therefore DKordic is correct, my second function is wrong, it returns the third element of the list.
2017-09-16T13:45:42Z Murii|linux: makes sense
2017-09-16T13:45:56Z pjb: (define (second list) (car (cdr list)))
2017-09-16T13:47:17Z pjb: Murii|linux: notice that r5rs provides cadr caddr but those names are "low level", they indicate a path in the tree of cons cells.  So it's better to rename it. We can also write: (define second cadr)
2017-09-16T13:47:32Z pjb: (define first car) (define second cadr) (define third caddr)
2017-09-16T13:48:05Z Murii|linux: I shall add them in my scheme too
2017-09-16T13:51:35Z wasamasa: or you know, use (list-ref list 2)
2017-09-16T13:52:04Z wasamasa: the elisp guidelines suggest using car, cadr and list-ref for anything with an index higher than 1
2017-09-16T13:53:29Z ijp: see also drop for cddr&co
2017-09-16T14:07:00Z ski . o O ( we need a new counting word, to go inbetween "second" and "third" .. )
2017-09-16T14:08:44Z jackdaniel: serd
2017-09-16T14:08:48Z jackdaniel: thicond
2017-09-16T14:09:01Z ecraven: I find I use first .. ninth quite a bit, they seem nice to me
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2017-09-17T02:52:17Z uneducated_idiot: How can I do this in O(N) time? https://gist.github.com/anonymous/60be61627de1a4b3f2336dc3cecf8102
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2017-09-17T12:31:30Z ecraven: hm.. r7rs says (exact? 3.0) -> #f
2017-09-17T12:31:42Z ecraven: is that correct? to me, 3.0 seems to be the exact same as 3, which is exact
2017-09-17T12:32:02Z LeoNerd: Doesn't the  .0  make it a float?
2017-09-17T12:32:16Z ecraven: LeoNerd: well, does that make it inexact?
2017-09-17T12:32:23Z ecraven: it is still exactly 3, even if it is a float
2017-09-17T12:32:28Z LeoNerd: I believe that's the point
2017-09-17T12:32:36Z LeoNerd: integers and rationals are exact
2017-09-17T12:33:57Z ecraven: hm.. so every float literal is automatically inexact? unless written as #e3.0?
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2017-09-17T13:17:29Z pjb: ecraven: r7rs writes "exact arithmetic is not limited to integers." (I guess they mean ratios, but it can also be understood for some other reals).
2017-09-17T13:18:56Z pjb: ecraven: r5rs 6.2.2 makes it clear that floating point numbers are all not exact?
2017-09-17T13:19:39Z pjb: s/r5rs/r7rs/
2017-09-17T13:19:57Z pjb: ecraven: there is also an exact-integer? but it is just (and integer? exact?).
2017-09-17T13:20:23Z pjb: Ah!
2017-09-17T13:20:48Z pjb: ecraven: there's integer? which works on real and return true if it represents an integer value!  (integer? 3.0) -> #t !
2017-09-17T13:21:12Z pjb: ecraven: so you want to use integer?, not exact?.
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2017-09-17T15:06:00Z ecraven: pjb: I still don't see the mathematical reason for declaring 3 to be "exact" and 3.0 to not be "exact" ;) but it certainly is simpler to implement
2017-09-17T15:06:38Z ecraven: pjb: also, 3.5 can be "exact", even with ieee floats.
2017-09-17T15:12:22Z ecraven: Scheme seems to normally try to abstract the internal representation of objects as much as possible, but in this case, this just seems like a different sort of reasoning that many others
2017-09-17T15:14:47Z wasamasa: #e3.0 seems erroneous to me, but then, I haven't looked in detail at r7rs number syntax
2017-09-17T15:15:10Z Riastradh: wasamasa: Why would it be erroneous?  Decimal notation is handy and you may want a ratio.
2017-09-17T15:15:36Z pjb: ecraven: it's a question of representation.  it's true that exact? works on specific values, but it's actually a function of the type of the value!
2017-09-17T15:16:00Z ecraven: pjb: there is no type, just internal representation
2017-09-17T15:16:10Z Riastradh: ecraven: It's a crude attempt to use tags on values to reflect characteristics of the operations on them.
2017-09-17T15:16:14Z pjb: ecraven: the problem is that in scheme, types are not reified. (in CL they are not either, but there are type specifiers which are sexp).
2017-09-17T15:16:39Z ecraven: Riastradh: that is my point, but expressed much better than I could make it ;) thank you
2017-09-17T15:17:26Z wasamasa: Riastradh: I could just specify 3 in that case and to get a ratio, hum, dunno
2017-09-17T15:17:29Z ecraven: my actual point is maybe this: 3.5 can be exact or inexact, depending on how you arrived at it.
2017-09-17T15:17:33Z Riastradh: wasamasa: #e1.234
2017-09-17T15:17:39Z ecraven: wasamasa: #e3.5 is 7/2
2017-09-17T15:18:09Z pjb: It's like in CL, the CL:FLOAT operation takes a value as second argument, when it uses actually only its type.
2017-09-17T15:18:12Z Riastradh: ecraven: Well, 3.5 represents only exactly one number.
2017-09-17T15:18:48Z Riastradh: ecraven: The process by which you arrived there may involve approximations to real number arithmetic, though.
2017-09-17T15:19:46Z ecraven: Riastradh: that's what I mean. you may "get" 3.5 at the end of a number of operations, but it was "contaminated" at some point during those calculations to be "inexact".
2017-09-17T15:19:48Z pjb: ecraven: I agree that you can use the floating point representation in a way that gives exact results. But it would be very difficult for the implementation to detect such use.  And in any case, it couldn't know when you read at run-time a value such as 3.0 if it's because it's exactly 3, or if it's because it's 3.0±ε
2017-09-17T15:19:51Z ecraven: too many quotes there ;)
2017-09-17T15:20:12Z wasamasa: I've always assumed that division will get you a ratio in strict r7rs mode
2017-09-17T15:20:50Z wasamasa: this #e thing reminds me of my calculators button for turning a decimal into a ratio
2017-09-17T15:21:06Z wasamasa: I always wondered why it would rarely work on floats
2017-09-17T15:21:26Z ecraven: wasamasa: it always works, there is no ieee float you cannot turn into a ratio
2017-09-17T15:21:51Z wasamasa: that may be the case in theory, but that calculator just gave up on these
2017-09-17T15:22:08Z ecraven: in fact, as I finally realised a few weeks ago, there are no numbers (except for infinities) that are real? but not rational? in any Scheme I tried
2017-09-17T15:22:58Z ecraven: pjb: I'm not number theorist enough to decide that, it just seems like r7rs (and all the rnrs before it) decided this in a strange way
2017-09-17T15:23:21Z wasamasa just realized there's a r5rs info file on his system
2017-09-17T15:23:40Z pjb: ecraven: yes, it's arbitrary.  Because if you enter 3/4, as result of a measurement, it could also be 3/4±ε.
2017-09-17T15:23:51Z ecraven: wasamasa: seems to belong to guile ;)
2017-09-17T15:23:55Z wasamasa: yeah
2017-09-17T15:24:04Z pjb: It's a matter of convention. It's assumed you will use 3/4 when it's absolutely exact, and 0.75 when it's ±ε.
2017-09-17T15:24:04Z ecraven: pjb: personally, I'd assume everything is exact unless otherwise specified
2017-09-17T15:24:28Z wasamasa: might be slightly bit more convenient than using chicken-doc or eww on its html version of r5rs
2017-09-17T15:24:32Z pjb: ecraven: well, the thing is that floating point operations will introduce errors automatically…
2017-09-17T15:24:45Z ecraven: pjb: only certain operations on certain values
2017-09-17T15:24:50Z pjb: Yes.
2017-09-17T15:25:31Z ecraven: it would in fact be nice if the floating point unit tagged values with exactness ;)
2017-09-17T15:26:00Z pjb: That's where lisp enters the scene!  You can define your own tagged numbers!
2017-09-17T15:26:37Z pjb: Just like Sussman & Abelson defined the ratios in sicp, define your floating-point with error.
2017-09-17T15:26:58Z pjb: It's actually funny to do: some operations blow your error coefficient! :-)
2017-09-17T15:28:22Z ecraven: where in 6.2.2 does it say that floating-point constants are inexact?
2017-09-17T15:29:08Z ecraven: it even explicitly says "This distinction [inexact vs. exact] is orthogonal to the dimension of type.", implying that there are exact real numbers
2017-09-17T15:29:50Z pjb: Looking.  I was wrong above: "Scheme explicitly distinguishes exact from inexact numbers. This distinction is orthogonal to the dimension of type."
2017-09-17T15:30:13Z Riastradh: ecraven: It's possible that what the authors -- probably Gerry, really -- had in mind with rational? vs real? is to admit computational models of select subsets of irrational numbers, e.g. certain classes of algebraic numbers, or limited continued fraction representations, &c.
2017-09-17T15:30:19Z Riastradh: And then nobody ever did that.
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2017-09-17T15:30:35Z pjb: ecraven: it says: "A number is inexact if it was written as an inexact constant, …".  I assume floating point literals are inexact constant.
2017-09-17T15:30:50Z ecraven: pjb: indeed, that is an assumption. but does it actually *say* that anywhere?
2017-09-17T15:30:57Z Riastradh: Maybe rational linear combinations of select transcendental numbers too.
2017-09-17T15:31:02Z ecraven: Riastradh: that seems reasonable
2017-09-17T15:31:20Z Riastradh: Also, this whole system was designed when IEEE 754 was new and not universally adopted.
2017-09-17T15:31:48Z Riastradh: Now anything that is not IEEE 754 is basically silly.
2017-09-17T15:32:22Z pjb: ecraven: it's in 6.2.5: "A numerical constant can be specified to be either exact or inexact by a prefix. The prefixes are #e for exact, and #i for inexact. An exactness prefix can appear before or after any radix prefix that is used. If the written representation of a number has no exactness prefix, the constant is inexact if it contains a decimal point or an exponent. Otherwise, it is exact."
2017-09-17T15:32:38Z ecraven: pjb: ah, thank you ;) that indeed says exactly what you said
2017-09-17T15:32:47Z pjb: ecraven: so not all floating point literals are inexact. You can prefix them with #e to make them exact…
2017-09-17T15:33:10Z ecraven: pjb: which on all implementations I tried makes them into ratios or integers, instead of floating point ;)
2017-09-17T15:33:50Z pjb: In MIT/GNU scheme, #e and #i are respected for floats and integers.
2017-09-17T15:34:06Z pjb: I guess it uses a bit in the tag.
2017-09-17T15:34:10Z ecraven: #e3.123 -> 3123/1000 in mit
2017-09-17T15:34:22Z pjb: Ah, right.
2017-09-17T15:34:23Z ecraven: #i1/2 -> 0.5
2017-09-17T15:34:42Z pjb: It would have been more fun to keep them as ieee 754 with a flag…
2017-09-17T15:36:37Z pjb: But I guess it's only an implementation choice, because 6.2.2 "Scheme explicitly distinguishes exact from inexact numbers. This distinction is orthogonal to the dimension of type." would allow the attribute to be per value.
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2017-09-17T15:43:01Z ecraven: pjb: exactly my thoughts ;)
2017-09-17T15:44:23Z ecraven: thanks to everyone for helping me understand this better
2017-09-17T15:44:52Z wasamasa: hm, I think I finally understand the subsets exercise in SICP
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2017-09-17T17:24:35Z wasamasa: https://github.com/wasamasa/sicp
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2017-09-17T17:56:55Z ecraven: jcowan_: any plans on including another
2017-09-17T17:57:02Z ecraven: macrology except for syntax-rules in r7rs-large?
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2017-09-17T18:10:59Z gwatt: ecraven: I know syntax-case went up for vote
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2017-09-17T18:21:26Z jcowan_: ecraven: Yes, we will vote on at least syntax-case, syntactic closures + explicit renaming, and explicit renaming by itself
2017-09-17T18:21:45Z jcowan_: I haven't yet had to structure it
2017-09-17T18:23:06Z ecraven: just wondering, having some "standard" non-hygienic macro system would make writing portable macros easier ;)
2017-09-17T18:23:53Z wasamasa: but you'll need ER/IR for that to work, no
2017-09-17T18:24:20Z jcowan_: wasamasa: No, any of those systems can support non-h macros
2017-09-17T18:24:57Z jcowan_: I have no dog in this fight, as I personally think non-h macros are a gun aimed at the programmer's foot
2017-09-17T18:25:10Z jcowan_: for the same reasons that lexically scoped variables are
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2017-09-17T18:25:34Z wasamasa: ITYM dynamically scoped variables
2017-09-17T18:25:41Z gwatt: According to oleg, you can break hygiene with syntax-rules: http://okmij.org/ftp/Scheme/macros.html#dirty-macros
2017-09-17T18:25:42Z jcowan_: yes, of course
2017-09-17T18:25:50Z jcowan_: Bend it, really.
2017-09-17T18:25:52Z wasamasa: oleg \o/
2017-09-17T18:26:03Z jcowan_: oleg ftw, but he can be hard to understand
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2017-09-17T18:27:30Z ecraven: jcowan_: how would you implement things like define-structure then? aren't those implicitly non-hygienic?
2017-09-17T18:27:54Z jcowan_: Yes, whereas define-record-type is not
2017-09-17T18:28:01Z jcowan_: er, is hygienic
2017-09-17T18:28:14Z ecraven: yes, but sometimes I just don't want to deal with all that hygiene ;)
2017-09-17T18:28:22Z jcowan_: Non-h macros cause names to appear out of nothing
2017-09-17T18:28:25Z ecraven: (define-structure point x y) is entirely good enough sometimes
2017-09-17T18:28:55Z ecraven: jcowan_: yea, but I prefer to have the choice between verbose define-record-type and implicit define-structure
2017-09-17T18:29:03Z jcowan_: Okay, I'm not opposed to including non-h macros in Scheme, I'm just saying I would never use them (and therefore don't really care which one(s) are chosen by the WG).
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2017-09-17T18:35:06Z jcowan: ecraven: One way to view the inexact numbers is that whereas the exact numbers are an implementation-limited subset of the rationals,
2017-09-17T18:35:32Z jcowan: the inexacts are an implementation-defined set of intervals over the real numbers that between them cover all the real numbers.
2017-09-17T18:36:33Z jcowan: Thus #i3 is an interval centered on #e3 and extending from halfway to the next smaller float to halfway to the next larger one
2017-09-17T18:37:12Z jcowan: +inf.0 represents an interval from the largest representable float all the way up to positive infinity, and similarly for -inf.0
2017-09-17T18:37:30Z jcowan: +nan.0 represents two intervals, the empty interval and the interval that covers every real number.
2017-09-17T18:42:58Z ecraven: that makes all decimal numbers intervals ;)
2017-09-17T18:43:27Z jcowan: So they are.
2017-09-17T18:43:39Z jcowan: unless written with #e.
2017-09-17T18:44:07Z jcowan: There used to be a bug in the numbers egg (but I think it's gone now)
2017-09-17T18:44:19Z ecraven: I'm not sure what I think about this, but given that probably everyone on the r7rs commitee is a better numerologist than I am, I should probably just trust y'all ;)
2017-09-17T18:44:30Z jcowan: I'm not really one either, I just fake it
2017-09-17T18:44:39Z jcowan: it's really nothing to do with r7rs, but with the properties of floats
2017-09-17T18:44:57Z jcowan: It's just that Scheme exposes the reality of things a little more clearly
2017-09-17T18:45:01Z ecraven: yea, but it seems strange to me that 3.5 is automatically inexact
2017-09-17T18:45:10Z ecraven: no questions about #i3.5
2017-09-17T18:45:14Z jcowan: In most languages it is automatically float
2017-09-17T18:45:20Z ecraven: that just seems like an arbitrary decision
2017-09-17T18:45:36Z ecraven: but floats are not inexact, just some operations on them are, if I may (hopefully correctly) paraphrase Riastradh
2017-09-17T18:45:45Z jcowan: the bug was that #i1e500 evaluated to +inf.0 instead of exact 10^500
2017-09-17T18:46:42Z jcowan: nope, bug is still there
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2017-09-17T18:48:15Z jcowan: does anyone have a build of Chicken 5 they can test on?
2017-09-17T18:48:36Z jcowan: sorry, should be #e1e500
2017-09-17T18:48:38Z jcowan: try that
2017-09-17T18:48:47Z ecraven: ah, I was wondering
2017-09-17T18:48:53Z ecraven: #i1e500 ->
2017-09-17T18:48:57Z ecraven: +inf.0 seems ok, right?
2017-09-17T18:49:19Z jcowan: yes
2017-09-17T18:49:23Z jcowan: same as 1e500
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2017-09-17T20:15:32Z francogrex: http://paste.lisp.org/display/356149
2017-09-17T20:16:17Z francogrex: in this code why do i get an output of '\t' and '\n' instead of the actual non-printing characters? is it because of the write function?
2017-09-17T20:17:50Z wasamasa: yes
2017-09-17T20:18:16Z wasamasa: write is for machines and display for humans
2017-09-17T20:20:04Z francogrex: alright, clear. thanks
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2017-09-17T20:21:59Z jcowan: Also, there is no guarantee whether the REPL will use write or display.
2017-09-17T20:22:15Z francogrex: wasamasa: is there a way to print the float without the F at the end?
2017-09-17T20:22:30Z wasamasa: wat
2017-09-17T20:22:50Z francogrex: like 5.2497554F to format it to print out 5.2497554 instead
2017-09-17T20:23:19Z wasamasa: must be a thing specific to whatever scheme you use
2017-09-17T20:23:42Z francogrex: yes it's a jscheme (the one with java api)
2017-09-17T20:23:48Z wasamasa: ...
2017-09-17T20:24:17Z wasamasa: look, you're not going to believe me, but kawa is better in all ways
2017-09-17T20:24:23Z wasamasa: also, why are you using write
2017-09-17T20:24:36Z wasamasa: write is for serialization, not human consumption
2017-09-17T20:24:37Z francogrex: i changed write to dislay ok now
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2017-09-17T20:25:51Z francogrex: i see kawa is equivalent to clojure it's big
2017-09-17T20:25:57Z francogrex: good but
2017-09-17T20:26:08Z wasamasa: I don't see why you're getting this impression
2017-09-17T20:27:03Z wasamasa: lein repl  11.53s user 0.46s system 86% cpu 13.845 total
2017-09-17T20:27:03Z wasamasa: kawa -e 42  0.51s user 0.05s system 139% cpu 0.400 total
2017-09-17T20:27:19Z francogrex: it's fast
2017-09-17T20:27:48Z francogrex: i will give it a try
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2017-09-17T20:28:05Z wasamasa: well, not fast, but acceptably fast to boot, despite all the bells and whistles
2017-09-17T20:28:09Z wasamasa: csi -e 42  0.01s user 0.01s system 95% cpu 0.013 total
2017-09-17T20:28:48Z wasamasa: the difference between half a second and <100ms isn't nearly as bad as between half a second and >10s
2017-09-17T20:28:48Z francogrex: wasamasa: i come from common lisp
2017-09-17T20:29:01Z francogrex: don't make fun of me please :)
2017-09-17T20:29:25Z francogrex: but i still can't get used to an implementation that doesn't use define-macro !
2017-09-17T20:29:49Z wasamasa: I don't understand
2017-09-17T20:30:01Z wasamasa: define-macro has been a scheme thing since r5rs
2017-09-17T20:30:18Z francogrex: many implentations dropped it
2017-09-17T20:30:32Z francogrex: chicken dropped it bc no-hygenic or whatever
2017-09-17T20:30:47Z wasamasa: you should stop smoking that crack
2017-09-17T20:31:06Z francogrex: try it yourself
2017-09-17T20:31:18Z wasamasa: ok, I thought of syntax-rules
2017-09-17T20:31:21Z francogrex: the defmacro not the crack
2017-09-17T20:32:01Z francogrex: whatever replaced macros as define-macro I can't understand it
2017-09-17T20:33:55Z wasamasa: learn it then
2017-09-17T20:34:23Z wasamasa: kawa has define-macro btw
2017-09-17T20:34:35Z aeth: iirc, define-macro is fairly common because hygenic macros cannot replace every dirty macro
2017-09-17T20:34:49Z aeth: So if you wanted to port all CL code to Scheme, you need a define-macro
2017-09-17T20:34:52Z wasamasa: it even shows in its manual how to replace it with syntax-case
2017-09-17T20:36:54Z francogrex: hygenic macros make me sick
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2017-09-17T20:37:15Z francogrex: you need some dirt for a good immunity
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2017-09-17T20:39:38Z francogrex: most probbaly they will port kawa on android too if not already done
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2017-09-17T20:40:57Z wasamasa: people have developed android applications with it
2017-09-17T20:41:23Z aeth: Kawa seems to be the Scheme for Android
2017-09-17T20:41:24Z francogrex: yes i see that it's possible
2017-09-17T20:41:36Z francogrex: (reading the manual now)
2017-09-17T20:41:45Z francogrex: wasamasa: i think i will like it
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2017-09-17T20:44:11Z francogrex: r7rs.. cool
2017-09-17T20:45:26Z francogrex: but yeah,, the macro thing
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2017-09-17T21:21:08Z wasamasa: meanwhile, I wrote a program using javax.sound.midi to play a note :>
2017-09-17T21:21:40Z gwatt: What was the note?
2017-09-17T21:21:46Z wasamasa: a C3
2017-09-17T21:23:52Z wasamasa: https://gist.github.com/wasamasa/569390ff182114f868f6c89da981fa52
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2017-09-17T22:47:48Z edgar-rft: let's write one program per note
2017-09-17T22:56:01Z Riastradh: jcowan: I think you should use a different term for macros that introduce names.  You can design macros that _composably_ introduce names, as part of their intended interface.  Non-hygienic macros leak parts of the implementation so you can't reliably compose them.
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2017-09-17T23:11:51Z Fare: name-introducing macros, vs name-clashing macros ?
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2017-09-17T23:45:42Z jcowan: Riastradh, Fare: how can you tell by inspecting a macro whether it introduces names or clashes with existing names?
2017-09-17T23:45:53Z jcowan: It surely depends on the context of macro definition.
2017-09-17T23:49:19Z Riastradh: jcowan: Consider (if-it t c a) which does (let ((it t)) (if it c a)).  Should you be able to define (or a b) by (if-it a it b)?  Should (let ((it 'foo)) (or #f it)) yield the symbol foo or yield #f?
2017-09-17T23:49:47Z Riastradh: I suggest that such a macro if-it should be called *hygienic* if you can define (or a b) that way and have the answer to the last question be the symbol foo.
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2017-09-18T00:24:39Z jcowan: Riastradh: All very well, but what happens when if-it is nested?  What does `it` mean in that case?
2017-09-18T00:25:04Z Riastradh: Innermost one wins, just like if you had written (let ((it 'this)) (let ((it 'that)) it)).
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2017-09-18T06:56:00Z wasamasa: hm, if you copy-paste multiple lines into kawa it only evaluates the first and silently discards the rest
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2017-09-18T15:19:09Z webshinra: https://framapic.org/fRbn7C092jwj/AF97bmfIWxX4.jpg a fast render.
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2017-09-18T15:20:51Z webshinra: (bad chan, but you can enjoy if you wish :D)
2017-09-18T15:21:24Z webshinra: wrong*
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2017-09-18T15:28:28Z qu1j0t3:  /b 12
2017-09-18T15:28:34Z qu1j0t3: omg it's infectious
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2017-09-18T15:58:00Z pjb: webshinra: didn't you write that in scheme?
2017-09-18T15:58:21Z webshinra: in clojure, i fear.
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2017-09-18T17:18:06Z ecraven: webshinra: that looks interesting ;)
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2017-09-18T18:43:37Z wasamasa: ecraven: I expected a better PKGBUILD for gerbil
2017-09-18T18:43:45Z wasamasa: ecraven: briefly wondered why I had no gxi in PATH
2017-09-18T18:44:05Z wasamasa: ecraven: is there any specific reason you put it all in /opt?
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2017-09-18T21:24:17Z ecraven: wasamasa: there is no make install so far, I was hoping upstream would add one
2017-09-18T21:24:30Z wasamasa: ._.
2017-09-18T21:24:42Z ecraven: but you are right, there's no good reason not to move things to their correct places
2017-09-18T21:25:02Z ecraven: I'll try to update it tomorrow
2017-09-18T21:26:07Z ecraven: webshinra: are you planning to build those?
2017-09-18T21:27:22Z webshinra: ecraven, a little more than planning : https://framapic.org/DJbrLyXRl1Jp/TuyUl3XQDuAg.png
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2017-09-18T21:31:40Z ecraven: very nice!
2017-09-18T21:31:58Z ecraven: please share more when you have more
2017-09-18T21:32:30Z webshinra: okay :)
2017-09-18T21:33:32Z gwatt: webshinra: 3d printing?
2017-09-18T21:33:48Z webshinra: yes
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2017-09-18T21:34:13Z gwatt: Do you 3d print the keycaps too?
2017-09-18T21:34:55Z webshinra: nop, I'll use standard dsa profil caps
2017-09-18T21:35:19Z webshinra: maybe i'll mark them with a laser engraver
2017-09-18T21:35:44Z ecraven: just leave them unmarked ;)
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2017-09-18T21:38:32Z webshinra: I'll run some tests and decide seeing the result
2017-09-18T21:39:52Z webshinra: but bépo have a lot of chars you would use every 4 month, and looking at the keyboard is a fast solution.
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2017-09-18T22:02:15Z cumseeker_: AN IRCD DESIGNED FOR REAL NIGGAS (NOT COON ASS NIGGAS)
2017-09-18T22:02:17Z cumseeker_: YOU MAY ASK IS THIS IRCD FOR YOU? ANSWER THE QUESTIONS BELOW
2017-09-18T22:02:19Z cumseeker_: DO YOU BLAME THE WHITE MAN FOR EVERYTHING?
2017-09-18T22:02:23Z cumseeker_: DOES THE THOUGHT OF WORK CAUSE TERROR IN YOUR HEART?
2017-09-18T22:02:28Z cumseeker_: DO YOU NOT GIVE TWO SHITS IF BLACKS ARE CALLED BY THE THOUSANDS
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2017-09-18T22:10:29Z Ober: time to go back to all rot13
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2017-09-19T00:11:23Z JohnTalent: Is there a room for chibi scheme?
2017-09-19T00:14:31Z jcowan_: JohnTalent: Not at present.  It's fine to discuss any Scheme here.
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2017-09-19T00:34:02Z Ober: most of them hang out in #r7rs
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2017-09-19T01:10:06Z jcowan_: Can someone invite me to #r7rs?
2017-09-19T01:10:10Z jcowan_: I think I probably qualify
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2017-09-19T01:24:00Z Ober: sorry john, no one there seems to know who you are. :[
2017-09-19T01:24:10Z gwatt: is r7rs invitation only?
2017-09-19T01:25:02Z Ober: yes
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2017-09-19T02:00:23Z JohnTalent: I am wanting to use chibi scheme but it is only supported by cygwin. Do you think converting it to win64 would be a big deal?
2017-09-19T02:00:26Z daviid: how is that possible? are these people on a // universe or what?
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2017-09-19T02:04:39Z JohnTalent: well?
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2017-09-19T05:10:55Z ecraven: Ober: what is #r7rs for? why isn't it open
2017-09-19T05:10:55Z ecraven:  
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2017-09-19T05:58:20Z Ober: hey ecraven
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2017-09-19T06:05:23Z ecraven: hey Ober
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2017-09-19T06:20:01Z ecraven: Ober: what is #r7rs for? why isn't it open
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2017-09-19T06:30:11Z Ober: it's open
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2017-09-19T08:20:14Z webshinra: https://framapic.org/Xz9vszbchddM/hWNGYinHtn7F.png 3d printing teach patience.
2017-09-19T08:21:42Z ecraven: hehe, yea ;)
2017-09-19T08:23:03Z wasamasa: the 3d rendering looked much nicer
2017-09-19T08:23:07Z wasamasa: what did you use for it?
2017-09-19T08:23:35Z webshinra: blender
2017-09-19T08:25:33Z wasamasa: let me guess, an external renderer, like this yafaray thing
2017-09-19T08:25:41Z webshinra: Cycles
2017-09-19T08:25:55Z webshinra: 500 passes, GPU rendering
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2017-09-19T08:27:12Z webshinra: now that blender got a monte-carlos stochastic renderer, I never need to use external rendering tools
2017-09-19T08:27:49Z webshinra: (and it soon should have a real time PBR engine, and that's soo cool)
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2017-09-19T08:29:29Z wasamasa: nice
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2017-09-19T08:40:03Z larsen: webshinra: are you building a keyboard ?
2017-09-19T08:42:51Z larsen: (oh, yes, I saw the backlog. If it is somewhere public, I'd love to see the project)
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2017-09-19T09:42:56Z webshinra: larsen, thats a fork from https://github.com/adereth/dactyl-keyboard (the video liked in the readme is really interesting)
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2017-09-19T09:43:52Z webshinra: in fact, that's a fork from https://github.com/tim-tx/dactyl-keyboard which is a fork itself :P
2017-09-19T09:44:24Z larsen: thank you. nice, I like Dactyl (I would consider building one but I'm too inexperienced with soldering and stuff, the curved circuit worries me)
2017-09-19T09:45:11Z larsen: (my only experience is assembling an Atreus)
2017-09-19T09:45:44Z webshinra: (it shouldn't, matrix wiring is overall easy)
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2017-09-19T15:30:58Z danly: Are there any curry'ing linear lisps?
2017-09-19T15:32:40Z gwatt: what is a currying linear lisp?
2017-09-19T15:32:52Z wasamasa: sounds like something a haskell person would love
2017-09-19T15:33:00Z gwatt: danly: Though the answer to your question is probably no
2017-09-19T15:33:01Z danly: Linear Types with function currying
2017-09-19T15:33:03Z wasamasa: who needs rest args anyways
2017-09-19T15:33:07Z jmd: gwatt: I think its #23 on the menu at my local indian restaurant.
2017-09-19T15:33:12Z danly laughs
2017-09-19T15:33:15Z gwatt: heh
2017-09-19T15:34:11Z danly: Think... Some curvy-bracketed bastard child of ATS, Haskell and Scheme
2017-09-19T15:34:51Z wasamasa: keep in mind that hardly anyone in here knows haskell
2017-09-19T15:34:56Z wasamasa: ATS much less so
2017-09-19T15:38:39Z gwatt: I've never even heard of ATS
2017-09-19T15:40:58Z danly: Well, now you have ;)
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2017-09-19T15:45:41Z ventonegro: I'd take a bastard child of Idris and Scheme
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2017-09-19T16:23:47Z ecraven: ventonegro: I'd be interested too ;t
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2017-09-19T16:52:02Z Ober: anyone working on r7rs stuff? see #r7rs
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2017-09-19T17:03:30Z gwatt: typed racket is probably the bes bet
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2017-09-20T05:17:02Z kilimanjaro: Can anyone suggest a scheme implementation to play around with? Preferably something w/ SLIME support or similar
2017-09-20T05:19:23Z kilimanjaro: mb chicken
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2017-09-20T05:33:05Z pjb: kilimanjaro: bigloo and mit-scheme are my prefered scheme implementations
2017-09-20T05:33:22Z pjb: mit-scheme is nice when you use edwin, it's emacs clone on X11.
2017-09-20T05:34:26Z kilimanjaro: i suppose that's fair
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2017-09-20T05:39:31Z kilimanjaro: oh right, edwin has paredit :)
2017-09-20T05:39:48Z kilimanjaro: does Riastradh still hang out around these parts
2017-09-20T05:40:02Z kilimanjaro: ah, he was in earlier
2017-09-20T05:43:36Z wasamasa: kilimanjaro: the problem is that slime support for anything non-CL is always going to be inofficial
2017-09-20T05:47:02Z kilimanjaro: true
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2017-09-20T05:47:54Z wasamasa: so if something provides it, the support is going to break once slime people do the next incompatible change to their mostly undocumented protocol
2017-09-20T05:49:56Z wasamasa: this happened before and is the reason why the question about a working version of swank-js keeps showing up on the emacs stackexchange
2017-09-20T05:50:13Z kilimanjaro: ah
2017-09-20T05:50:17Z ecraven: kilimanjaro: i
2017-09-20T05:50:28Z ecraven: I have a mostly well-working swank for mit scheme
2017-09-20T05:51:01Z ecraven: I'm also working on an r7rs swank, but that'll still take some time
2017-09-20T05:51:22Z wasamasa: but wait, doesn't this require a sockets SRFI
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2017-09-20T05:51:54Z wasamasa: I dimly recall one by the sagittarius person
2017-09-20T05:52:12Z ecraven: wasamasa: indeed, that is why there are implementation-specific parts ;)
2017-09-20T05:52:21Z ecraven: like completion, module introspection, etc.
2017-09-20T05:52:25Z wasamasa: that, too
2017-09-20T05:52:38Z wasamasa: make your own SRFI!
2017-09-20T05:52:56Z ecraven: I talked about that with jcowan_ ;) some day maybe
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2017-09-20T05:58:08Z aeth: hmm
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2017-09-20T05:59:07Z kilimanjaro: ecraven: where can i find it?
2017-09-20T06:00:39Z aeth: Is trying to get SLIME working with a Scheme documented somewhere?
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2017-09-20T06:01:49Z ecraven: kilimanjaro: on github, ecraven
2017-09-20T06:02:27Z kilimanjaro: thanks
2017-09-20T06:02:52Z ecraven: sorry, just doing something else, it includes a description of how to get it working. if you have questions or problems, ask me
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2017-09-20T06:06:01Z Ober: hmm
2017-09-20T06:06:50Z wasamasa: ideally scheme folks should be doing their own version of slime
2017-09-20T06:07:00Z wasamasa: no, geiser doesn't count, it does in-band signalling
2017-09-20T06:07:03Z ecraven: wasamasa: the problem is the emacs interface, imho
2017-09-20T06:07:17Z ecraven: the backend server isn't so hard, but re-doing all the inspection and debugging interface isn't so much fun
2017-09-20T06:07:42Z ecraven: presentations, too
2017-09-20T06:08:27Z wasamasa: true
2017-09-20T06:09:23Z ecraven: geiser is a nice backend, but the frontend just can't compare to SLIME (yet)
2017-09-20T06:10:25Z ecraven: also, some design decisions are different. geiser is only a thin veneer over the existing repls, while SLIME provides its own REPL, unified across implementations
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2017-09-20T06:12:44Z mejja ponders veneer schnitzel
2017-09-20T06:13:22Z wasamasa: https://github.com/jaor/geiser/issues/58
2017-09-20T06:14:19Z wasamasa: this is the most obvious proof that the veneer is a bit too thin
2017-09-20T06:16:12Z ecraven: indeed, but there's nothing you can do about this, unless you don't actually show chicken's repl
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2017-09-20T06:40:45Z Ober likes chicken
2017-09-20T06:40:50Z Ober: need to borrow their s3 egg
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2017-09-20T06:51:38Z wasamasa: ecraven: you'd instead devise a protocol where you can eval something scheme, get a response back (like whether the input is complete to show a continuation prompt if appropriate) and render your own repl
2017-09-20T06:51:46Z wasamasa: ecraven: that's the out-of-band way
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2017-09-20T08:21:38Z mejja: b
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2017-09-20T08:27:16Z webshinra: https://framapic.org/3Ncrp05cioM9/qamE4ACgR6TL.jpg first try : ok
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2017-09-20T12:12:53Z qu1j0t3: webshinra: that looks pretty good.
2017-09-20T12:13:01Z qu1j0t3: webshinra: home printer?
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2017-09-20T15:49:36Z webshinra: qu1j0t3, the one I assemble for the hackerlab where I share it :)
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2017-09-20T16:47:43Z qu1j0t3: seems to do a very nice job.
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2017-09-20T18:07:05Z webshinra: yep, I was surprised myself :D
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2017-09-21T00:21:21Z JohnTalent: any of you familiar with chibischeme? I'm wondering what it would take to convert it for the Windows platform.
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2017-09-21T01:20:44Z JohnTalent: well?
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2017-09-21T02:03:37Z cmaloney: i'm not familiar with chibischeme so ... ?
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2017-09-21T03:08:44Z JohnTalent: cmaloney: FAIR ENOUGH.
2017-09-21T03:08:45Z JohnTalent: caps
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2017-09-21T03:46:04Z cmaloney: ;)
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2017-09-21T06:04:54Z ecraven: doesn't chibi run on windows anyway?
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2017-09-21T06:24:50Z wasamasa: cygwin
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2017-09-21T06:25:22Z wasamasa: they're after native executables for whatever reason and that means to invest some porting effort
2017-09-21T06:26:03Z wasamasa: skeeto wrote a few blog posts on that topic, it basically boils down to using only POSIX features and write your own windows replacements for them as needed
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2017-09-21T06:30:00Z ecraven: what about that windows linux subsystem thing? that might work?
2017-09-21T06:30:46Z aeth: It won't work if you're using it for anything graphical.
2017-09-21T06:31:04Z aeth: I'm not sure if it has SDL, Qt, Tk, Gtk, etc., bindings, though.
2017-09-21T06:31:06Z wasamasa: I'm just going to assume that if JohnTalent can't be bothered to research about POSIX, he won't about WSL either
2017-09-21T06:31:14Z ecraven: aeth: of course, but chibi might work
2017-09-21T06:31:59Z aeth: Yes, but what I mean is, any use of chibi with a GUI won't work in WSL (afaik), so it's not a complete solution.
2017-09-21T06:32:17Z ecraven: aeth: agreed
2017-09-21T06:32:20Z wasamasa: funny assumption that chibi has graphical things in the first place :>
2017-09-21T06:32:37Z aeth: And if Cygwin isn't good enough and you're running it on Windows, you're probably more likely to want to use it for some GUI thing.
2017-09-21T06:32:52Z aeth: wasamasa: Literally everything has SDL and OpenGL bindings, if nothing else.
2017-09-21T06:33:07Z aeth: It probably wouldn't be too hard to port those to the Schemes that don't have it.
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2017-09-21T06:33:32Z aeth: Gtk would be harder because it changes its API every 2 weeks.
2017-09-21T06:34:23Z wasamasa: FWIW, there's a sdl package on snow coop, but come on, what are the odds you'll want to use chibi for that
2017-09-21T06:35:01Z ecraven: wasamasa: it might be interesting if chibi were embedded in - say - a game, and sdl exposed to it. but then, that wouldn't be a problem of chibi + SDL, but your game engine + chibi
2017-09-21T06:35:16Z wasamasa: exactly
2017-09-21T06:35:31Z wasamasa: using chibi to drive the whole game is silly, embedding chibi in an existing game much less so
2017-09-21T06:36:05Z aeth: wasamasa: I'm just giving an example of something that WSL would
2017-09-21T06:36:11Z aeth: (probably) not be able to run
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2017-09-21T06:39:19Z wasamasa: that's like pointing out that CL isn't able to distinguish the falsy value from the empty list
2017-09-21T06:39:27Z wasamasa: sure, a concern in theory, in practice not so much
2017-09-21T06:44:35Z aeth: not really
2017-09-21T06:46:03Z aeth: (and (eq '() nil) (eq '() (not t))) is part of CL by definition
2017-09-21T06:46:33Z aeth: Something not being suitable for a game is just a performance thing, that will go away in time with improvements to the implementation or hardware or both.
2017-09-21T06:47:14Z aeth: It also depends on the game. You probably couldn't write a AAA game in any Scheme, but you could probably write Tetris or Pong in all of them.
2017-09-21T06:49:02Z ecraven: aeth: if you can use lua to script your game, you can certainly use Scheme, even for AAA titles
2017-09-21T06:51:54Z aeth: ecraven: We weren't talking about scripting.
2017-09-21T06:52:11Z ecraven: well, chez might be good enough to write your entire game in
2017-09-21T06:53:13Z aeth: I almost brought up Chez
2017-09-21T06:53:15Z aeth: I'm not sure, though
2017-09-21T06:53:16Z wasamasa: per bothner wrote a game in kawa :P
2017-09-21T06:53:26Z wasamasa: but he also cheats by using an engine
2017-09-21T06:53:29Z ecraven: kawa works too, you can write non-consing code in it
2017-09-21T06:53:40Z aeth: It's not just about non-consing
2017-09-21T06:53:50Z aeth: The core of an engine is full of known types doing simple things fast.
2017-09-21T06:54:03Z aeth: A static language has an advantage over a Lisp.
2017-09-21T06:54:04Z ecraven: aeth: kawa can take advantage of that, you can declare all your types
2017-09-21T06:54:31Z wasamasa: I wish it had more syntax for that, like in CHICKEN
2017-09-21T06:54:32Z ecraven: you can declare types where you need them, and just use lists and symbols where it doesn't matter
2017-09-21T06:54:40Z ecraven: wasamasa: write macros
2017-09-21T06:55:00Z wasamasa: currently it's just limited to a let with a type declaration
2017-09-21T06:55:01Z ecraven: I've written non-trivial android apps with kawa, worked well enough ;)
2017-09-21T06:55:13Z aeth: You probably don't want to use lists in the heart of a game engine, unless they're in macros (not a run time issue) or maybe some special queues or something
2017-09-21T06:55:14Z wasamasa: and even that cannot be found in the manual easily
2017-09-21T06:55:37Z aeth: The heart of a game engine is a bunch of arrays and struct-like things with known types being iterated over quickly. That's why C++ is so common.
2017-09-21T06:55:37Z ecraven: aeth: well, traditionally, you don't write a game engine anyway, but just use an existing one
2017-09-21T06:55:44Z ecraven: aedidn't work
2017-09-21T06:55:52Z ecraven: aeth: I've prototyped an ECS in chez, that was plenty fast
2017-09-21T06:56:25Z ecraven: of course, it was missing all the UI, so that was mostly cheating ;)
2017-09-21T06:56:41Z aeth: ecraven: I wouldn't be surprised. You want type declarations, something like a struct, lots of arrays, etc.
2017-09-21T06:56:44Z aeth: Not hard to get that.
2017-09-21T06:57:01Z aeth: SBCL and CCL offer about 90% of what's needed in the CL world.
2017-09-21T06:57:07Z mrm: aeth: Not neccesarily. If you have pretty fundamentally dynamic-ish behavior, typed languages can be at a disadvantage, since they're trying to optimize weird operations on a giant Any type.
2017-09-21T06:57:10Z aeth: I wouldn't be surprised if it's possible in Chez Scheme or maybe Kawa
2017-09-21T06:57:29Z ecraven: well, someone will just have to do it :D
2017-09-21T06:57:56Z aeth: mrm: The heart of the game engine is rather static. Things like AI or scripting is where you can get creative. That's probably why a lot of engines are bilingual.
2017-09-21T07:01:56Z aeth: No need to have a bilingual engine if you have a flexible enough language, though. You probably won't beat the performance of well-optimized C or C++, but who needs that? Something written in Chez would probably outperform all those unoptimized Early Access survival games on Steam that poorly use Unreal or Unity.
2017-09-21T07:02:41Z mrm: aeth: I had something like Zork/text-adventures in mind for the 'fundamentally dynamic' thing, since the entire game is more or less a weird REPL.
2017-09-21T07:03:21Z ecraven: aeth: kawa has the advantage of giving you simple access to all existing java engines
2017-09-21T07:03:44Z ecraven: chez doesn't have a lot of batteries, and you'd have to use the ffi to interact with all the C/++ things
2017-09-21T07:04:07Z ecraven: but then, kawa uses java, YMMV there ;)
2017-09-21T07:04:52Z aeth: ecraven: All you need to write a game engine in any language is access to SDL (for portable support of Windows/Linux/whatever windows+input) and OpenGL, which most of them do have.
2017-09-21T07:05:18Z ecraven: aeth: of course, but would you really want to use the chez ffi to wrap all relevant SDL and opengl functions?
2017-09-21T07:05:22Z aeth: The issues are usually performance (although not always) and having to reinvent literally every wheel.
2017-09-21T07:05:25Z mrm: Let's write a text-adventure engine on top of OpenGL.
2017-09-21T07:05:28Z ecraven: sure, you can do that, it's just quite a bit of work
2017-09-21T07:06:17Z aeth: Wrapping a 3D physics engine is hard, for instance. So you'd have to avoid doing something that requires one, or you'd have to go back to school to study numerical analysis.
2017-09-21T07:06:37Z mrm: ecraven: You don't neccesarily need to use the chez ffi. You can statically link C libraries into a custom kernel, and register scheme-visible functions on the C side.
2017-09-21T07:06:49Z ecraven: aeth: that would make me lean towards kawa, as you can just use the java one directly
2017-09-21T07:07:03Z ecraven: mrm: yes, but then you need to write C code :P
2017-09-21T07:07:11Z aeth: The problem with using Java libraries is that the Java model and the functional model are just so incredibly incompatible.
2017-09-21T07:07:32Z ecraven: aeth: are C/++ libraries better?
2017-09-21T07:07:41Z aeth: no
2017-09-21T07:07:52Z aeth: The issue isn't just wrapping it, though, it's also the mismatch in how the languages think.
2017-09-21T07:07:53Z ecraven: that leaves javascript :P
2017-09-21T07:07:58Z aeth: C would probably be easier than C++, though.
2017-09-21T07:08:06Z aeth: C libraries aren't that hard to wrap.
2017-09-21T07:08:10Z aeth: C++ is opinionated.
2017-09-21T07:08:16Z aeth: Java is very opinionated.
2017-09-21T07:08:25Z ecraven: well, you can't directly wrap a c++ library with any ffi I know (except for clasp), you'll need to C-wrap it anyway
2017-09-21T07:08:51Z aeth: the physics libraries are written in C++, generally, afaik
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2017-09-21T07:38:27Z wasamasa: ecraven: what about node?
2017-09-21T07:38:37Z ecraven: as in node.js?
2017-09-21T07:38:38Z wasamasa: ecraven: I recall seeing stuff for wrapping C++ libraries, also for python
2017-09-21T07:38:44Z ecraven: not sure
2017-09-21T07:39:28Z wasamasa: I'll have to look it up again, maybe I understand enough by now to see how their approaches work
2017-09-21T07:39:28Z wasamasa: probably just gobs and gobs of codegen :P
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2017-09-21T07:40:30Z ventonegro: For wrapping C++ as a C library I liked the "hourglass" approach
2017-09-21T07:40:58Z wasamasa: maybe based on llvm
2017-09-21T07:41:11Z ventonegro: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PVYdHDm0q6Y
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2017-09-21T07:43:41Z wasamasa: https://github.com/charto/nbind
2017-09-21T07:44:39Z wasamasa: no specific python thing in mind, I'm just vaguely aware that there's a ridiculous amount of C++ libraries with python bindings
2017-09-21T07:44:58Z wasamasa: the last one of this kind I touched was openimageio
2017-09-21T07:46:37Z wasamasa: apparently just python's C API: https://github.com/OpenImageIO/oiio/blob/master/src/python/py_deepdata.cpp
2017-09-21T07:46:54Z wasamasa: and boost::python :P
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2017-09-21T11:26:59Z jonaslund: ooooh
2017-09-21T11:27:07Z jonaslund: games and dynamic languages
2017-09-21T11:27:53Z jonaslund: we used lua on a ps2/xbox title (32/64mb of ram) and a custom scripting language on a Dreamcast/PS2 title (16mb on DC)
2017-09-21T11:29:27Z jonaslund: the thing is, having a dynamic language for all odd-custom things in a game is a nice thing. the downside is that you very easily run into GC pauses and stuff (and that's a thing you really really want to avoid)
2017-09-21T11:30:22Z jonaslund: also for AAA games where graphicians are pushing enough content to fill up the memory fragmentation often quickly becomes an issue
2017-09-21T11:30:42Z jonaslund: (esp if you have dynamic loading flows)
2017-09-21T11:32:21Z jonaslund: my intrest in "alternative" languages for games came after really fighting fragmentation issues with the ps2/xbox game
2017-09-21T11:33:13Z jonaslund: all heavy graphics stuff should be on gpu these days
2017-09-21T11:33:24Z jonaslund: physics atleast partly
2017-09-21T11:35:29Z jonaslund: personally, i'd prefer to write things in non-c/c++ (even if C++11 is a far nicer language than pre) and have c++ there for "acceleration" purposes (or late stage optimization)
2017-09-21T11:39:00Z jonaslund: also, if you're going to do bindings for C++ strongly consider c++11 vararg templates since they can be used to do automatic type checking on function boundaries
2017-09-21T11:39:38Z jonaslund: (also gluing code is easier since C++11 has a lambda syntax that can be used to provide binding functions from the C++ side)
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2017-09-21T12:01:11Z ecraven: kawa and 3d games: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9_kLsNpsvKk
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2017-09-21T12:12:23Z wasamasa: yup, that's the one I thought of
2017-09-21T12:12:26Z wasamasa: I only read the pdf
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2017-09-21T12:27:39Z ecraven: I'll watch it some time later
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2017-09-21T19:45:28Z ecraven: does r7rs intend read-char to read an actual character? so possibly multiple utf-8 bytes?
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2017-09-21T19:51:59Z Fare: that's my understanding, but I'm far from the standard.
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2017-09-21T19:55:37Z gwatt: I'm pretty sure that's what r6rs does now
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2017-09-21T20:13:06Z amz3`: o/
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2017-09-21T20:16:06Z ecraven: just because a few of the "r7rs" Schemes I tried actually just read a byte, thus not reading utf-8 correctly
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2017-09-21T20:33:43Z gwatt: chez and guile both seem to read utf-8 characters properly with read-char
2017-09-21T20:36:19Z takitus: I'm afraid to ask how read-char is supposed to deal with combining characters.
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2017-09-21T20:40:58Z takitus: But it's very encouraging that Scheme is UTF-8 all the way, rather than trying to go the hopeless UTF-agnostic route.
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2017-09-21T20:51:43Z cmaloney: I think that's more due to a UNIX-heritage than anything
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2017-09-22T04:55:02Z ecraven: takitus: they are separate codepoints, so I guess they should be read by themselves
2017-09-22T04:55:49Z ecraven: I don't think Scheme has a notion of grapheme clusters
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2017-09-22T05:11:15Z takitus: ecraven: Right. Probably better to handle that at a higher level, anyway.
2017-09-22T05:12:40Z takitus: ecraven: normalization and the whole can of worms that goes with it, that is.
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2017-09-22T05:24:36Z ecraven: takitus: agreed ;)
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2017-09-22T05:24:53Z ecraven: read-char should imho read exactly one unicode codepoint, decoding utf-8 (or whatever else the port is set to)
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2017-09-22T10:38:18Z webshinra_: https://framapic.org/R5FcVQqTJFsE/fyNwetSaRc2r.png < generated latex from gauche scheme
2017-09-22T10:38:56Z webshinra_: (I just get the tree to automaticaly grow function of the description lenght)
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2017-09-22T13:26:20Z murii: how can I make a for loop ?
2017-09-22T13:26:25Z murii: using recursion
2017-09-22T13:29:17Z cmaloney: Are you looking for a for loop as in from x value to y value?
2017-09-22T13:29:25Z murii: ye
2017-09-22T13:31:34Z cmaloney: Have you looked at https://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Scheme_Programming/Looping ?
2017-09-22T13:31:44Z murii: yep
2017-09-22T13:32:15Z cmaloney: OK, so did that answer your question?
2017-09-22T13:32:27Z murii: not really
2017-09-22T13:32:43Z cmaloney: OK, where are you running into trouble?
2017-09-22T13:32:43Z murii: I don't want to use for-each
2017-09-22T13:32:46Z wasamasa: that book is just wow
2017-09-22T13:33:05Z wasamasa: learn about named let, that's all you need
2017-09-22T13:33:20Z wasamasa: srfi-1 procedures are nice to have when dealing with lists, but not terribly useful for looping
2017-09-22T13:33:23Z cmaloney: murii: Perhaps you can expand on what your program is doing and we can approach it that way
2017-09-22T13:33:57Z cmaloney: wasamasa: I think the book is trying to do things without relying heavily on concepts that might not be implemented.
2017-09-22T13:34:13Z cmaloney: eg: in guile I'd use their looping functions. :)
2017-09-22T13:34:28Z wasamasa: named let exists even in r4rs
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2017-09-22T13:38:29Z cmaloney: Yeah, I still find named let a little confusing
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2017-09-22T13:38:44Z cmaloney: I understand what it's doing, but it's a little strange. :)
2017-09-22T13:39:11Z wasamasa: it can be desugared to letrec
2017-09-22T13:40:40Z cmaloney: Which doesn't help much if you're just starting out. (eg: I don't understand letrec)
2017-09-22T13:41:05Z wasamasa: it isn't much of a jump from let and let*
2017-09-22T13:41:42Z wasamasa: letrec itself can be desugared to let and set!
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2017-09-22T16:15:33Z ecraven: named let is one of the best things in Scheme ;)
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2017-09-22T16:23:15Z jmd: ecraven: But it takes a while to learn how to use it.
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2017-09-22T16:25:14Z ecraven: jmd: I've been using it for too long maybe... but I don't think I found it harder than other parts of Scheme
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2017-09-22T16:25:21Z ecraven: it's just a recursive loop
2017-09-22T16:25:33Z ecraven: or actually just a loop, no recursion at all
2017-09-22T16:25:44Z ecraven: (in the common case where you call it in a tail position)
2017-09-22T16:25:53Z jmd: Yes.
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2017-09-22T16:57:01Z some-user: hello
2017-09-22T16:57:23Z some-user: strangely i can't find any recording of this https://icfp17.sigplan.org/track/scheme-2017#program , it would be weird if whole event went unrecorded
2017-09-22T17:04:59Z DeeEff: Are any of the people working on SRFI-158 around?
2017-09-22T17:05:44Z DeeEff: I'm trying to figure out what the point of "accumulators" are, given that something like `gfold` is easy enough to write
2017-09-22T17:05:51Z DeeEff: also, curious as to why gfold isn't in the spec
2017-09-22T17:06:18Z DeeEff: thoughts?
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2017-09-22T17:24:11Z gwatt: jcowan: ^^
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2017-09-23T02:21:41Z foof``: ecraven: yes
2017-09-23T02:22:00Z foof``: haven't quite implemented all red docket srfis natively though
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2017-09-23T07:09:10Z str1ngs: hello, how do I open a pipe, write to it then read from it? I need to input some data to stdin of a program then, read the results
2017-09-23T07:11:28Z pjb: implementation specific: read the documentation of your implementation.
2017-09-23T07:14:09Z str1ngs: I have but I'm still haveing trouble groking how to do it. normally I would just exec a process then write to stdin and then read from stdout. I'm rather new to scheme though
2017-09-23T07:14:54Z str1ngs: my implimentation is guile, but I would have thought reading and writing pipes would be somewhat standard
2017-09-23T07:24:18Z pjb: str1ngs: no, there are a lot of systems that don't have any notion of pipe.
2017-09-23T07:25:29Z str1ngs: ok, I'll keep beating my head against the wall on this then
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2017-09-23T07:26:15Z pjb: str1ngs: once you have identified the implementation specific API, the program structure should be rather similar to what you would do in C.  Read UNP.
2017-09-23T07:28:33Z str1ngs: as far as I can tell I just need to use open-pipe with my implimentation API. I can write to a pipe port fine, and read from a pipe. but if I open it read write, it just blocks
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2017-09-23T07:33:46Z wasamasa: such are pipes
2017-09-23T07:33:59Z wasamasa: don't forget to close them if you're done
2017-09-23T07:38:03Z wasamasa: IIUC the problem is that to read from a pipe, something must have been written to it first
2017-09-23T07:38:15Z wasamasa: but that's not a scheme-specific problem
2017-09-23T07:38:42Z wasamasa: lisp in general makes it easier to concentrate on the problem instead of fighting the language
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2017-09-23T07:43:24Z webshinra_: <3
2017-09-23T07:47:34Z str1ngs: well I got something to work at least
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2017-09-23T07:54:03Z takitus: pjb: UNP?
2017-09-23T07:54:11Z str1ngs: ahh I was doing it right all along, but the program I'm piping too, probably needs me to close the input port. before it writes to output.
2017-09-23T07:54:43Z str1ngs: but guile seems to make the ports one for some reason
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2017-09-23T08:12:04Z str1ngs: takitus: think he meant http://www.scheme.com/tspl4/
2017-09-23T08:12:09Z str1ngs: not sure though
2017-09-23T08:12:21Z str1ngs: well I got it to work!
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2017-09-23T09:32:33Z amz3`: scheme is the greatest programming language of all the time, but everything will re-written in rust
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2017-09-23T19:17:32Z aeth: amz3`: but Rust itself should be rewritten in Ada so that we know that the compiler does what it says!
2017-09-23T19:17:43Z aeth: Otherwise there's a bootstrapping problem.
2017-09-23T19:18:03Z amz3`: :)
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2017-09-23T22:56:39Z Ober: what is the best structure to use to accumulate unique entries?
2017-09-23T22:56:49Z Ober: thought a hash table would prevent dupes.. :*
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2017-09-23T23:51:22Z DeeEff: Ober: sets work well enough
2017-09-23T23:51:52Z DeeEff: I think SRFI-113 uses hash tables though
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2017-09-24T01:28:26Z Ober: yeah I just needed to use make-hash-table vs make-hash-table-eql
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2017-09-24T06:07:34Z amz3`: héllo all!
2017-09-24T06:36:22Z Ober: hi!
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2017-09-24T08:23:08Z Fare: A tale of many nests https://fare.livejournal.com/189741.html  My favorite small macro, macro modularity, and defining macros, in Common Lisp and in Scheme
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2017-09-24T10:49:29Z wasamasa: meh, why does r7rs bother defining parameters, but then doesn't allow to change their value by passing an extra argument
2017-09-24T10:50:56Z wasamasa: "The effect of passing arguments to a parameter object is implementation-dependent."
2017-09-24T10:53:11Z wasamasa: all implementations I tried so far do the expected thing though
2017-09-24T10:55:07Z foof``: the semantics when using assignment from different threads is not consistent among implementations
2017-09-24T10:55:32Z wasamasa: hm, fair enough
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2017-09-24T12:12:46Z trux: how to run scheme file in terminal, & in emacs please let me know? I'm newbie to sicp book
2017-09-24T12:15:46Z wasamasa: first step: pick a scheme implementation
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2017-09-24T12:17:01Z wasamasa: second step: read the documentation of that implementation to learn how to invoke it for batch operation and a repl
2017-09-24T12:20:15Z trux: wasamasa: I install the mit-scheme for ubuntu, & I'm running the files with scheme --load file-name.scm
2017-09-24T12:23:52Z wasamasa: well, then you just need to add (setq scheme-program-name "scheme") and M-x run-scheme will invoke it
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2017-09-24T22:34:29Z Ober: a set is a unique list?
2017-09-24T22:34:40Z Ober: can it be dynamically sized?
2017-09-24T22:39:55Z Ober: ahh I want srfi-1123
2017-09-24T22:39:57Z Ober: 113
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2017-09-24T23:16:13Z cowan: Ober: The default implementation of sets are hash tables, but of course that can be changed.  A new SRFI is coming for sets of orderables.
2017-09-24T23:16:21Z cowan: (or rather is in progress)
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2017-09-24T23:26:06Z Fare: cowan, I was quite unconvinced by the current SRFIs on hash-tables.
2017-09-24T23:26:30Z Fare: cowan, I don't have the focus required to make counter-offers at the time, though.
2017-09-24T23:26:32Z cowan: I on the other hand was quite convinced by ntest
2017-09-24T23:26:36Z cowan: s/ntest/nest
2017-09-24T23:27:01Z cowan: Politics is the art of the possible; science the art of the solvable.
2017-09-24T23:27:38Z Fare: and twitter is the art of nice-sounding short pieces of bullshit?
2017-09-24T23:27:45Z cowan: I tried to leave a comment on the nest posting, but LJ made me jump through such hoops I gave up
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2017-09-24T23:28:09Z cowan: If that refers to @woldemar_avalon, I disagree; if it refers to Twitter in general, probably.
2017-09-24T23:28:28Z Fare: it refers to "Politics is the art of the possible".
2017-09-24T23:28:49Z cowan: I just posted the whole thing there.
2017-09-24T23:29:28Z cowan: The implicit claim that hygiene just saves you from gensymery is only half of what it does for you, was the thrust of my comment.
2017-09-24T23:29:43Z Fare: what is the other half?
2017-09-24T23:30:25Z cowan: Title of an essay collection by Peter Medawar (he wrote "soluble" but I think that sounds too chemical)
2017-09-24T23:30:40Z Fare: quote by Bismark, initially.
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2017-09-24T23:37:09Z cowan: Anyway, I'd like to make nest into a SRFI and a proposal for the Yellow (syntax) Edition, if you are agreeable.
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2017-09-24T23:40:46Z Fare: Certainly.
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2017-09-24T23:56:24Z tautologico: what's nest?
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2017-09-25T01:44:00Z cowan: tautologico: https://fare.livejournal.com/189741.html
2017-09-25T01:51:48Z cowan: Curses, and I don't mean the TUI library.  Larceny won't run on Linux on Windows, because it's only available as 32 bits.
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2017-09-25T02:11:48Z tautologico: cowan: thanks
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2017-09-25T06:42:56Z Ober: (define foo (make-hash-table)) (hash-put! foo 'bar (make-hash-table)). how would you then hash-put! something into the hash of bar?
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2017-09-25T07:24:59Z ecraven: Ober: (hash-put! (hash-get foo 'bar) 'baaz 'quux)
2017-09-25T07:25:11Z ecraven: (hash-get might take an additional default argument, not sure about that)
2017-09-25T07:25:31Z vyzo: yeah, you need to nest the hash- ops
2017-09-25T07:25:38Z vyzo: you can easily define variants to do what you need
2017-09-25T07:25:59Z ecraven: I've written nested-hash-table/get and put! which just go down nested hash tables
2017-09-25T07:26:02Z vyzo: (hash-get* ht key1 key2 key3) -> (hash-get (hash-get (hash-get ht key1) key2) key3)
2017-09-25T07:26:10Z ecraven: ^ like that ;)
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2017-09-25T09:51:33Z mejja: ecraven: why dont you rerun https://ecraven.github.io/r7rs-coverage/ with mit-scheme.git?
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2017-09-25T10:18:57Z ecraven: mejja: I will, however I use local mit-scheme for a lot of development, so I cannot just update it without first checking whether all the FFI-stuff and custom libraries I have still work :-/
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2017-09-25T10:41:28Z mejja: ;-)
2017-09-25T10:41:38Z mejja: rudybot: More visitors made for better business compared to last year at the fun rides, too. Only the cold temperatures might have held some guests back from riding the carousels.
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2017-09-25T10:42:02Z rudybot: mejja: A Moscow user filmed an election official at polling station #2501 filling out ballots as he sat at his desk. Several users filmed buses, nicknamed "carousels", which appeared to be carrying the same people to various stations so they could vote over and over again.
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2017-09-25T18:02:55Z john0925: How's the performance of functional Scheme code vs more procedural/mutation-oriented? I've written a few toy functional scripts that end up faster than Python but that doesn't exactly tell me much.
2017-09-25T18:03:32Z wasamasa: you're forgetting that there's many scheme implementations
2017-09-25T18:03:52Z wasamasa: CHICKEN for instance does better at garbage collection times if you reduce mutation
2017-09-25T18:06:50Z john0925: Huh, so functional code on Chicken would actually be faster? That's interesting and underlines that I'm lacking some critical facts.
2017-09-25T18:07:37Z wasamasa: according to a few regulars on its channel it would do better in the r7rs benchmark suite if you'd rewrite the programs to stress the GC less
2017-09-25T18:07:56Z john0925: Are there any resources where I could get comparison and implementation-specific informations without personally digging into them?
2017-09-25T18:08:07Z john0925: I'm not exactly knowledgeable enough to compare GC implementations anyway.
2017-09-25T18:08:09Z wasamasa: then there are implementations like racket which do well in benchmarks no matter what you throw at them thanks to the tracing JIT
2017-09-25T18:08:48Z wasamasa: not that I know of
2017-09-25T18:09:08Z john0925: I've been messing with Guile for things where speed doesn't really matter (I'd been doing them in Python prior anyway), but I was wondering if I'd just have to jump to CLisp right away.
2017-09-25T18:09:17Z john0925: Though with Chez being open now I guess that may be an option.
2017-09-25T18:09:33Z amz3`: does Chez have greenthreads?
2017-09-25T18:10:49Z john0925: A quick loopup doesn't seem to indicate so.
2017-09-25T18:11:31Z john0925: nvm, http://www.scheme.com/tspl4/examples.html#./examples:s85
2017-09-25T18:11:38Z john0925: Calls them "light-threads"
2017-09-25T18:14:41Z danly: Chicken has very fast cleanup of stack allocations, so writing functional code can be very performant
2017-09-25T18:21:32Z john0925: The Chicken "Performance" article goes over typing quite a bit. I suppose it makes a significant difference?
2017-09-25T18:22:15Z wasamasa: it definitely does for numerical code
2017-09-25T18:22:19Z danly: Yep, you can avoid branch prediction faults and unnecessary reflection if you're explicit about types
2017-09-25T18:23:07Z wasamasa: I wrote code that folds gif frames into imlib2 images in pure scheme and for that to be acceptably fast I had to go all the way there and compile without safety checks
2017-09-25T18:23:32Z john0925: Hm. I think I'll definitely look at Chicken along with Gambit and Chez when looking for faster stuff. Those three seem to be the safest that also have good results in benchmarking (Stalin is not safe).
2017-09-25T18:24:15Z danly: Chicken's real strength, IMHO, is how trivial it is to replace Scheme with C when tightening an inner loop is necessary
2017-09-25T18:24:29Z wasamasa: https://github.com/wasamasa/giflib/blob/master/giflib-imlib2.scm#L96
2017-09-25T18:25:15Z wasamasa: I've considered rewriting it in C, but debugging that thing was hard enough in scheme already
2017-09-25T18:25:15Z john0925: danly: Yeah, though one can do similar with Guile (it's basically recommended to code it much like Python).
2017-09-25T18:30:22Z danly: heh, I find C to be far easier to debug than scheme. ;)
2017-09-25T18:31:19Z john0925: Depends on what you do. I tend to find pure-functions quite nice in REPL.
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2017-09-25T19:13:15Z cowan: Stalin is for when your code is fully debugged and bummed and Gambit still isn't fast enough for it.  And you need to deliver a standalone executable.
2017-09-25T19:13:47Z C-Keen: and you have enough time to run a compilation
2017-09-25T19:22:44Z Fare: Stalin is to exterminate inefficiencies.
2017-09-25T19:22:59Z Fare: on the glorious road to communism.
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2017-09-25T19:23:05Z Fare: or something
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2017-09-26T03:27:28Z Ober: brutally optimized
2017-09-26T03:28:53Z Ober: Fare: you get smp working on gerbil/gambit yet?
2017-09-26T03:31:52Z Fare: haven't really tried smp. I tried actors and they work well.
2017-09-26T03:32:27Z Fare: my "production" servers are single core vms, so no big deal
2017-09-26T03:32:43Z Fare: also, smp seems young in gambit
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2017-09-26T03:55:37Z Ober: ok
2017-09-26T03:55:47Z Ober: there is always fork
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2017-09-26T04:04:15Z edgar-rft: ...and work
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2017-09-26T04:05:21Z Ober: work(2) or work(1)?
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2017-09-26T04:10:31Z edgar-rft: there's gross-work and net-work
2017-09-26T04:16:41Z qu1j0t3: work sux
2017-09-26T04:19:39Z Ober: not if you can sneak scheme in :P
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2017-09-26T05:38:13Z wasamasa: I almost managed to sneak in anton van straaten into a review slide at work
2017-09-26T05:38:23Z wasamasa: I later learned someone else already made one for that part
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2017-09-26T06:07:01Z Ober: lol
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2017-09-27T07:24:35Z galex-713: is there a standard/simple way of calling python from scheme?
2017-09-27T07:24:51Z galex-713: Or importing python objects into scheme, preferably without parsing
2017-09-27T07:27:06Z pjb: No standard way.  You may find simple implementation dependent ways. Read the documentation of your implementation.
2017-09-27T07:29:07Z galex-713: my implementation is guile, I didn’t find anything, that’s why I came here
2017-09-27T07:29:30Z galex-713: to know if there’s some easy/simple acceptable way of doing it, like calling directly (system "python ...") or stuff like that
2017-09-27T07:29:31Z DKordic: galex-713: ``Standard way''?!  Scheme <-> CFFI <-> Python is the only thing that comes to my mind.
2017-09-27T07:29:45Z galex-713: DKordic, you can use ffi to call python? :D
2017-09-27T07:30:19Z galex-713: didn’t know it! I thought FFI was just to call C code, or anything natively compiled in a binary ELF file!
2017-09-27T07:30:28Z pjb: You may also be interested in: http://medias.ircam.fr/x31d466
2017-09-27T07:30:44Z pjb: http://www.nicklevine.org/claude/paper.pdf
2017-09-27T07:31:23Z pjb: ie. reverse the principle: embed scheme in python.
2017-09-27T07:32:00Z pjb: In any case, the main problem is the co-existence of the two kinds of objects, lisp objects and python objects, and the need to convert them when passing data between the two worlds.
2017-09-27T07:32:09Z galex-713: I’d prefer calling python from scheme, so I can directly eval it in geiser
2017-09-27T07:32:16Z galex-713: yeah
2017-09-27T07:32:27Z galex-713: DKordic, how do you call python that way? you compile it?
2017-09-27T07:32:27Z pjb: In the case of CL, we have a python implementat, CL-Python, which may be used to run some python code in the lisp environment ("natively").
2017-09-27T07:32:38Z pjb: So you could do something similar, implementing python in scheme.
2017-09-27T07:32:46Z galex-713: it’s not “some” but entires libraries from pip
2017-09-27T07:33:16Z galex-713: well it’s just to read some dict data from a proprietary googleplay app that has some reverse engineered api in python on github
2017-09-27T07:33:22Z DKordic: galex-713: I meant ``C Foreign Function Interface'' by CFFI.  AFAIK Python has a C API for Python Objects.
2017-09-27T07:33:51Z galex-713: DKordic, but I didn’t know it, so I’m asking myself how can I call python object like if it were C?
2017-09-27T07:33:56Z pjb: An other easy way is to avoid FFI, and instead use two different processes communicating thru a socket (or pipe).
2017-09-27T07:34:34Z pjb: You still have to convert data (serialize and deserialize) to send it thru the socket…
2017-09-27T07:34:36Z galex-713: pjb, then you require parsing afaik
2017-09-27T07:34:41Z pjb: Yes.
2017-09-27T07:34:41Z galex-713: that’s less natural
2017-09-27T07:34:54Z pjb: It may avoid some bugs…
2017-09-27T07:35:34Z galex-713: at this time I could even call it through (system "python ...") as I said, I’m not sure it’s that less complicated (I have to write a whole parser! and know all the python escape rules etc.), and it’s less efficient
2017-09-27T07:35:39Z galex-713: what bugs?
2017-09-27T07:36:00Z pjb: Really, don't do that. Just implement your thing entirely in scheme!
2017-09-27T07:37:32Z galex-713: ?
2017-09-27T07:37:48Z galex-713: I can’t, I’m going to use that python libraries, that itself uses its own libraries
2017-09-27T07:38:11Z DKordic: galex-713: Then the most natural solution is to rewrite the Python source into Scheme.
2017-09-27T07:38:12Z galex-713: and that consiste in reverse engineering a whole app, plus its crypto, plus google cloud messaging, plus android stuff, plus google play stuff…
2017-09-27T07:38:23Z galex-713: and I never used android or google play stuff :/
2017-09-27T07:38:38Z galex-713: DKordic, that’s way too much code
2017-09-27T07:38:53Z galex-713: too much time to spend
2017-09-27T07:38:58Z galex-713: I prefer reuse others code
2017-09-27T07:39:06Z galex-713: especially that I wanted to do it as an experiment
2017-09-27T07:39:13Z galex-713: not spending more than a day on it
2017-09-27T07:41:27Z DKordic: Simple _binary_ serialization?  What data types are in use (dict...)?
2017-09-27T07:42:35Z galex-713: just got like… some dozens of api functions, only returning integers, unicode strings, arrays, tuples, dict, I’d like to be able to get them in scheme as numbers, strings, arrays+lists, alists…
2017-09-27T07:43:33Z pjb: Again, an easy way to do it is to use two different processes communicating thru a socket (or pipe).
2017-09-27T07:43:57Z pjb: For a 1 day prototype, it's what I'd do.
2017-09-27T07:48:36Z galex-713: pjb, writing a whole parser?
2017-09-27T07:49:26Z pjb: galex-713: (read) is a whole parser.  (print) is a whole serializer.
2017-09-27T07:49:29Z galex-713: pjb, or writing more python in order to simply format the data you want to get (it’s the closest thing that I see as a 1-day-simple thing, yet I’ve had prefered to get whole objects so I can have all the data)?
2017-09-27T07:49:51Z galex-713: pjb, oh, maybe parsing inside python and serializing into sexp from python?
2017-09-27T07:49:52Z pjb: and python has everything: http://sexpdata.readthedocs.io/en/latest/
2017-09-27T07:49:57Z galex-713: ohhhhhh
2017-09-27T07:50:00Z galex-713: that a good idea!
2017-09-27T07:50:26Z pjb: SO half an hour for the communication. one hour to implement and test your 12 API functions, and the rest of the day to have fun.
2017-09-27T07:50:30Z galex-713: DKordic, is it that hard to binarily translate dict to alist in memory?
2017-09-27T07:50:52Z galex-713: oh yeah it’s right
2017-09-27T07:51:03Z galex-713: okay you’re right thank you pointing me the right way :)
2017-09-27T07:51:06Z pjb: There are of course binary serializers/deserializers.  In libraries you may find stuff as ASN.1
2017-09-27T07:52:17Z galex-713: pjb, would imply using ffi, I think it would be a better idea as a long term thing but for today I’m going to do what you said since the “parse python data” problem is solved ^^
2017-09-27T07:54:35Z DKordic: galex-713: It seems that Python C API is exactly what You need.
2017-09-27T07:55:05Z galex-713: DKordic, it is The Right Way and what I need in the long term if I really do something useful
2017-09-27T07:55:23Z galex-713: For now I’m seeing if it’s cool/useful enough and if I can motivate myself to loose more time on it
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2017-09-27T12:13:27Z galex-713: pjb, actually, sexpdata seems to use cl-like sexps :/
2017-09-27T12:13:41Z galex-713: anyway, I’m probably going to try to use that from emacs-lisp directly then…
2017-09-27T12:14:07Z ecraven: galex-713: what is the difference, for simple things?
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2017-09-27T12:16:49Z galex-713: ecraven, I’m trying to read a dict, and sexpdata gives me a (:keyword arg) list instead of an alist
2017-09-27T12:17:13Z galex-713: also (a, b) gives either (a b) or [a b] but no $(a b)
2017-09-27T12:17:38Z ecraven: which Scheme has $(a b)?
2017-09-27T12:18:19Z galex-713: err… don’t guile?
2017-09-27T12:18:21Z galex-713 checks
2017-09-27T12:18:37Z ecraven: I've never seen any Scheme that has $(...
2017-09-27T12:18:45Z ecraven: what would that even be?
2017-09-27T12:18:51Z galex-713: #(a b) sorry
2017-09-27T12:19:09Z ecraven: ah, you want vectors. those will be different between Scheme and CL ;)
2017-09-27T12:19:16Z galex-713: that’s what I just said
2017-09-27T12:19:19Z ecraven: but beware, even emacs has different read syntax
2017-09-27T12:19:37Z galex-713: sexpdata returns either (a b) or [a b] but no mode for #(a b)
2017-09-27T12:19:43Z galex-713: ?
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2017-09-27T12:22:15Z ecraven: well, depending on what kind of data you want to export, it may be trivial to write your own exporter in python
2017-09-27T12:29:59Z galex-713: I don’t know very well python
2017-09-27T12:30:05Z galex-713: well I know it quite badly
2017-09-27T12:30:38Z ecraven: neither do I, but it can't be very hard to print some formatted text, depending on the type of a data structure
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2017-09-27T15:38:08Z jcowan: read is a trivial parser compared to a Python parser
2017-09-27T15:38:23Z jcowan: An alternative would be to translate the CL-Python interpreter into Scheme
2017-09-27T15:38:47Z jcowan: *#$%.  So many nice CL libraries we in Scheme have no access to without a lot of grunt work
2017-09-27T15:48:34Z jackdaniel: one way to fix that would be writing cl-scheme with ability to reach the host compiler
2017-09-27T16:01:52Z jcowan: Indeed it would
2017-09-27T16:02:49Z jcowan: You'd want a CL to Scheme compiler so that you could feed the result to any reasonable Scheme.  But you'd also need a library because polymorphism.
2017-09-27T16:04:42Z jcowan: One of Kawa's goals is to present a CL personality, but while there are many hooks there is nothing usable yet.
2017-09-27T16:05:55Z jcowan: Delimited continuations coming to a JVM near you soon, hurrah!
2017-09-27T16:06:17Z jcowan: but not tail calling, @$##.
2017-09-27T16:06:44Z wasamasa: ITYM --full-tailcalls
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2017-09-27T16:08:26Z jcowan: I mean what we call proper tail recursion.
2017-09-27T16:08:37Z wasamasa: yep, you must enable it explicitly for kawa
2017-09-27T16:08:57Z jcowan: But the JVM knows nothing of it
2017-09-27T16:08:57Z wasamasa: it can otherwise only do TCO inside a function as opposed to mutually recursive ones
2017-09-27T16:09:30Z LeoNerd: I believe the usual tricks on JVM involved returning trampolines
2017-09-27T16:09:37Z wasamasa: then, I can't recall the last time I voluntarily wrote mutually recursive functions...
2017-09-27T16:10:17Z jcowan: state machines can be very nicely represented as a big letrec instead of a big case
2017-09-27T16:10:34Z jcowan: just tail-call the next state instead of setting a variable representing it and going round the loop again
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2017-09-27T23:49:13Z shrdlu68: Hello, what's the scheme equivalent of Common Lisp's cliki.net or common-lisp.net?
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2017-09-27T23:52:32Z shrdlu68: Oh, it's right there in the topic.
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2017-09-30T00:44:34Z libman: I have a little benchmark trying to identify compilers that can produce very lean Unix executables (ideally static):  https://github.com/lbmn/crap/tree/master/bench/helloWorld .  Question: is there a better Scheme compiler for this than Chicken?  What compile arguments should I use?
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2017-09-30T09:22:55Z Capaverde: I am making a modular language that has list processing
2017-09-30T09:24:37Z Capaverde: but it's supposed to be safe rather than powerful
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2017-09-30T09:27:33Z Capaverde: how do I represent lists internally, if their size won't change?
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2017-09-30T16:16:59Z QoDliBt: hi there
2017-09-30T16:19:01Z Lambdajack: Hi QoDliBt.
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