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Looking at the big scheme benchmark here - https://ecraven.github.io/r7rs-benchmarks/benchmark.html I see bigloo isn't exactly the fastest scheme implementation. Looks like chez does the best in benchmarks, whic 2017-08-02T10:16:12Z xificurC: h also states it "includes extensive support for interfacing with C and other languages". So if it's faster and allows interfacing with C, where does this leave bigloo? What advantages does it have compared to it or any other highly performant scheme implementation like gambitc or larceny? 2017-08-02T10:28:26Z zacts joined #scheme 2017-08-02T10:35:05Z marvin2 joined #scheme 2017-08-02T10:35:09Z marvin2 quit (Excess Flood) 2017-08-02T10:37:47Z marvin2 joined #scheme 2017-08-02T10:39:52Z Murii quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-08-02T10:54:02Z lritter joined #scheme 2017-08-02T11:00:37Z zacts quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.9) 2017-08-02T11:02:22Z ertes quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-08-02T11:03:23Z pjb joined #scheme 2017-08-02T11:17:12Z marvin2 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-08-02T11:18:10Z zacts joined #scheme 2017-08-02T11:20:03Z lvo quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-08-02T11:41:08Z Murii joined #scheme 2017-08-02T11:48:04Z rotty quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-08-02T11:50:08Z dmiles quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-08-02T11:51:49Z rotty joined #scheme 2017-08-02T11:58:35Z dmiles joined #scheme 2017-08-02T11:58:55Z mejja joined #scheme 2017-08-02T12:09:08Z nomicflux joined #scheme 2017-08-02T12:23:16Z BitPuffin|osx joined #scheme 2017-08-02T12:24:43Z Riastradh joined #scheme 2017-08-02T12:31:24Z nomicflux quit (Quit: nomicflux) 2017-08-02T12:51:44Z pie_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-08-02T12:52:52Z ski quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-08-02T12:57:02Z jlongster joined #scheme 2017-08-02T13:04:01Z pie_ joined #scheme 2017-08-02T13:04:02Z pie__ joined #scheme 2017-08-02T13:04:11Z pie__ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-08-02T13:15:20Z jlongster quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. 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I want to try this out https://www-sop.inria.fr/indes/fp/Bigloo/doc/bigloo-12.html#Regular-parsing but I'm having a hell of a time installing bigloo. They only provide the tar and debs through ftp, which is blocked at my work ... 2017-08-02T13:56:05Z xificurC: then I found this https://github.com/donaldsonjw/bigloo/releases but a ./configure && make fails -_- 2017-08-02T13:59:06Z gwatt: I can't really help with that 2017-08-02T13:59:13Z gwatt: Are you running debian? 2017-08-02T13:59:19Z xificurC: ubuntu 2017-08-02T13:59:41Z gwatt: huh, I'm surprised ubuntu doesn't include debs in the repo 2017-08-02T14:01:16Z xificurC: what do you mean 2017-08-02T14:01:33Z gwatt: oops, I meant "bigloo" where I said "debs" 2017-08-02T14:07:52Z joast joined #scheme 2017-08-02T14:12:42Z jcowan: From the bigloo home page 2017-08-02T14:12:43Z jcowan: To access the Debian Bigloo packages, add the following to the /etc/apt/sources.list file: 2017-08-02T14:12:43Z jcowan: deb ftp://ftp-sop.inria.fr/indes/fp/Hop/debian squeeze hop 2017-08-02T14:13:13Z jcowan: or no, that won't help if FTP is blocked at your end 2017-08-02T14:13:27Z xificurC: jcowan: as noted previously, ftp is blocked 2017-08-02T14:13:41Z jcowan: I'll post it to a hidden directory on my website, hold on 2017-08-02T14:13:48Z xificurC: it's a vicious circle :) 2017-08-02T14:14:28Z wasamasa: is it just me who can't take that name seriously? 2017-08-02T14:14:42Z jcowan: Bigloo? 2017-08-02T14:14:44Z gwatt: bigloo? 2017-08-02T14:14:55Z jcowan: It is funny, of course, but perhaps not so much in French 2017-08-02T14:15:05Z xificurC: wasamasa: and your name is? :) 2017-08-02T14:15:18Z wasamasa: xificurC: bigpoo 2017-08-02T14:15:18Z jcowan: wasamasa is not a product 2017-08-02T14:15:30Z jcowan: Oh, I thought you meant "loo" = "toilet" 2017-08-02T14:15:30Z C-Keen: well depends on the price 2017-08-02T14:15:34Z C-Keen: prise 2017-08-02T14:15:37Z C-Keen: hm.... 2017-08-02T14:15:40Z beekill joined #scheme 2017-08-02T14:15:40Z jcowan: Price 2017-08-02T14:15:41Z wasamasa: jcowan: that, too 2017-08-02T14:15:45Z C-Keen: jcowan: thanks 2017-08-02T14:15:58Z wasamasa: gives hygienic macros a new meaning, huh? 2017-08-02T14:16:18Z jcowan snickers 2017-08-02T14:16:49Z jcowan: xificurC: http://vrici.lojban.org/~cowan/temp/bigloo4.3a.tar.gz 2017-08-02T14:16:55Z pjb joined #scheme 2017-08-02T14:16:58Z jcowan: I can't leave it there for long, let me know when you have pulled it 2017-08-02T14:17:30Z wasamasa: I recall a picture of a toilet paper roll in a scheme article on macros 2017-08-02T14:17:32Z xificurC: jcowan: thanks, pulling right now 2017-08-02T14:17:36Z daviid joined #scheme 2017-08-02T14:17:40Z xificurC: if that fails to compile as well I'll leave it at that :) 2017-08-02T14:17:48Z jcowan nods 2017-08-02T14:17:50Z wasamasa: if it had a chicken's feet print on it, that would have been perfect 2017-08-02T14:18:18Z gwatt: jcowan: lojban? Isn't that the perfectly unambiguous human language? 2017-08-02T14:18:20Z jcowan: It's always worked for me, although I haven't built it recently 2017-08-02T14:18:21Z xificurC: jcowan: done thanks 2017-08-02T14:18:24Z jcowan: gwatt: Yes 2017-08-02T14:18:52Z jcowan: I wrote a grammar book on it. Not *perfectly* unambiguous, though; semantic ambiguity remains, as does the ambiguity of names 2017-08-02T14:19:20Z jcowan: Just uniquely parseable with a slightly-enhanced yacc parser or a Peg parser 2017-08-02T14:19:33Z gwatt: ah 2017-08-02T14:19:54Z gwatt: I'll admit to my knowledge of lojban being entirely from xkcd 2017-08-02T14:20:01Z jcowan chuckles 2017-08-02T14:20:08Z jcowan: lots of stuff at lojban.org if you are interested 2017-08-02T14:20:41Z wasamasa: can you translate me "What need is there for fish to sing, when I can roar and bellow?"? 2017-08-02T14:23:56Z jcowan: gi sau ma le finpu cu limna ginai mi cladu bacru 2017-08-02T14:24:14Z jcowan: I don't know how to distinguish "roar" and "bellow", so I just wrote "loudly vocalize" 2017-08-02T14:24:42Z gwatt: double plus good 2017-08-02T14:24:55Z jcowan: oops, s/limna/sanga 2017-08-02T14:25:05Z jcowan: I wrote "for fish to swim", which isn't what you said 2017-08-02T14:26:54Z wasamasa: works for me 2017-08-02T14:27:19Z jcowan: also I left out "can" 2017-08-02T14:27:32Z wasamasa: hm, that's a bigger change 2017-08-02T14:27:33Z xificurC: now instead of coding I'm reading about lojban 2017-08-02T14:28:22Z wasamasa: it won't harm anyone if the fish is loudly vocalizing, but they're supposed to not actually do that 2017-08-02T14:28:49Z jcowan: gi sau ma le finpu cu sanga gina mi pu'i cladu bacru 2017-08-02T14:29:01Z jcowan: that assumes that "can" means "can and have" rather than "can but perhaps hasn't" 2017-08-02T14:29:40Z jcowan: dammit, typos 2017-08-02T14:29:42Z wasamasa: for more context, the preceding line is "Why should it mean that the fish in the sea are all unable to sing?" 2017-08-02T14:30:16Z wasamasa: so it's about abilities under the sea 2017-08-02T14:30:17Z jcowan: ga sau ma le finpu cu sanga ginai mi pu'i cladu bacru 2017-08-02T14:30:25Z jcowan: Right, I looked up the lyrics 2017-08-02T14:30:44Z jcowan: but it does not say whether the speaker really does roar and bellow (which I am assuming) or just has the capability to do so. 2017-08-02T14:30:58Z jcowan: "can" is ambiguous in English that way 2017-08-02T14:31:07Z lritter quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-08-02T14:31:52Z jcowan: Of course this problem is not special to Lojban 2017-08-02T14:33:39Z jcowan: when an English-to-French translator reads "he sat in a chair" they have to decide whether the original refers to "une chaise" (no arms) or "un fauteuil" (with arms) 2017-08-02T14:34:00Z beekill quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-08-02T14:34:15Z jcowan: Likewise, Russian has two separate words for "blue" (light and dark) but only one for red/pink. 2017-08-02T14:35:54Z xificurC: well bigloo compiled fine, thanks jcowan :) 2017-08-02T14:36:04Z jcowan: Great! 2017-08-02T14:36:10Z jcowan: Be aware that it is not tail recursive 2017-08-02T14:36:22Z xificurC: I tried compiling the word count example from here https://www-sop.inria.fr/indes/fp/Bigloo/doc/bigloo-12.html#Regular-parsing which is a replica of the UNIX wc command basically 2017-08-02T14:36:34Z jcowan: (or not reliably so, it is tail *recursive* but doesn't have proper tail calls in the general case) 2017-08-02T14:36:45Z xificurC: running it on a 111MB file it even outperforms the UNIX wc 2017-08-02T14:37:58Z xificurC: wow, the original wc program has 18 bytes! 2017-08-02T14:38:12Z wasamasa: jcowan: I recommend listening to the song for the full experience 2017-08-02T14:39:15Z jcowan: I'm in a quiet zone without headphones (which is not as much fun as being in Marsport without Hilda) 2017-08-02T14:40:27Z C-Keen: xificurC: cool, on my debian system it's 43k 2017-08-02T14:40:55Z xificurC: jcowan: "Nevertheless all simple tail recursions are compiled without stack consumption" 2017-08-02T14:41:00Z xificurC: define "simple" 2017-08-02T14:41:08Z Khisanth quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-08-02T14:41:11Z jcowan: probably means direct, or known 2017-08-02T14:41:16Z sz0 joined #scheme 2017-08-02T14:41:42Z xificurC: you just introduced more ambiguity :) 2017-08-02T14:54:08Z Khisanth joined #scheme 2017-08-02T14:57:55Z lolcow joined #scheme 2017-08-02T14:58:17Z leppie quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-08-02T14:58:23Z gwatt: No general TCE? That's a bummer 2017-08-02T15:01:10Z jcowan: gwatt: It's a tradeoff. Bigloo is quite fast (though not like Chez, Gambit, or Larceny) and translates straightforwardly to C or JVM byte codes 2017-08-02T15:01:48Z jcowan: It provides call/cc but recommends you use try and unwind-protect instead 2017-08-02T15:02:50Z gwatt: Does it provide a special purpose looping construct then? 2017-08-02T15:08:08Z mejja: I thinks it's only across module boundaries it doesn't do tce, named-let's and self tail calls should be fine. 2017-08-02T15:08:27Z gwatt: ah 2017-08-02T15:08:46Z wasamasa: what about mutually recursive functions? 2017-08-02T15:09:26Z mejja: no idea.. 2017-08-02T15:10:19Z wasamasa: that's the kind of TCO that requires use of a trampoline helper in clojure and is impossible to do automatically in scala 2017-08-02T15:11:07Z gwatt: Even the manual trampoline doesn't work in scala 2017-08-02T15:11:13Z gwatt: it blows the heap 2017-08-02T15:14:44Z gravicappa quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-08-02T15:30:27Z fadein quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-08-02T15:30:52Z daviid quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-08-02T15:33:27Z redeemed quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-08-02T15:37:45Z sethalves quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2017-08-02T15:39:19Z BitPuffin|osx quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-08-02T15:40:37Z zacts quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-08-02T15:45:15Z Fare joined #scheme 2017-08-02T15:47:47Z wigust joined #scheme 2017-08-02T15:54:32Z zacts joined #scheme 2017-08-02T15:57:32Z edgar-rft quit (Quit: edgar-rft) 2017-08-02T15:58:36Z sleffy joined #scheme 2017-08-02T16:17:01Z jcowan quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-08-02T16:21:22Z mejja quit (Quit: \ No newline at end of file) 2017-08-02T16:27:59Z badkins quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-08-02T16:28:22Z cemerick quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2017-08-02T16:29:05Z cemerick joined #scheme 2017-08-02T16:33:10Z sethalves joined #scheme 2017-08-02T16:50:45Z badkins joined #scheme 2017-08-02T16:55:01Z badkins_ joined #scheme 2017-08-02T16:55:04Z jcowan joined #scheme 2017-08-02T16:57:58Z badkins quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-08-02T16:59:46Z taylan quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-08-02T17:00:01Z taylan joined #scheme 2017-08-02T17:02:10Z sleffy quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-08-02T17:15:10Z sleffy joined #scheme 2017-08-02T17:29:22Z cemerick quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-08-02T17:29:52Z cemerick joined #scheme 2017-08-02T17:36:05Z vicenteH quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-08-02T17:39:19Z ecraven: wow... TAB is the string concatenation operator in SNOBOL4 :D somehow that seems like a bad choice 2017-08-02T17:40:19Z pjb: and not SPACE? 2017-08-02T17:40:42Z jcowan: Any kind of whitespace is fine 2017-08-02T17:41:20Z jcowan: But whitespace is also the pattern match operator 2017-08-02T17:41:32Z pjb: :-) 2017-08-02T17:43:11Z gwatt: C actually works like that too, assuming string literals 2017-08-02T17:43:47Z ecraven: pjb: space also works 2017-08-02T17:47:39Z jcowan: Snobol statements are of the form "label destination pattern = source goto 2017-08-02T17:47:52Z jcowan: where all parts are optional (if label is omitted, you have to indent at least one space) 2017-08-02T17:48:45Z ecraven: jcowan: is snobol worth a closer look, to learn new ideas? 2017-08-02T17:49:00Z jcowan: I would look at Icon instead 2017-08-02T17:49:33Z ecraven: thanks 2017-08-02T17:49:36Z pjb: I would take those kind of languages would be good to make libraries. 2017-08-02T17:50:03Z pjb: Since snobol is so good for string manipulations, it could be made into a good lisp string manipulation library. 2017-08-02T17:50:18Z jcowan: Icon is all about generators 2017-08-02T17:50:32Z jcowan: not merely a bag on the side as in Python or Scheme, but all the way down 2017-08-02T17:51:39Z jcowan: e.g. a < b is a generator that generates a if a is less than b, or generates nothing otherwise 2017-08-02T17:52:23Z jcowan: s/generates a/generates b 2017-08-02T17:54:31Z jcowan: similarly, find(x, y) does not merely find the first occurrence of x in y, it generates every occurrence 2017-08-02T17:56:35Z lritter joined #scheme 2017-08-02T17:56:58Z lritter quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-08-02T17:58:01Z ecraven: is that in some way related to snobol, or just an interesting language in general? 2017-08-02T17:58:47Z jcowan: It's Snobol x structured programming 2017-08-02T17:58:53Z jcowan: invented by the same people 2017-08-02T17:59:18Z jcowan: Damn, I left some things out of the generator SRFI 2017-08-02T17:59:40Z Riastradh: In what category does it generate objects? 2017-08-02T17:59:49Z jcowan: Riastradh: Which 2017-08-02T17:59:50Z jcowan: ? 2017-08-02T18:00:38Z jcowan: 1) generate an object forever 2) drop n-1 values, pass through the nth, and stop (composition of gdrop and gtake) 2017-08-02T18:01:19Z Riastradh: Well, it could generate a group, like 2 generates the order-3 subgroup of Z/6Z, or it could generate a module, or it could generate a Hilbert space, or... 2017-08-02T18:02:13Z daviid joined #scheme 2017-08-02T18:02:39Z jcowan: Yes, I grasp that, but I don't know if you are askng about Icon or SRFI 122. 2017-08-02T18:04:17Z Riastradh: Don't mind me, I'm just statlerandwaldorfing. 2017-08-02T18:05:50Z lritter joined #scheme 2017-08-02T18:08:05Z jcowan: I shall not 2017-08-02T18:10:23Z ecraven: jcowan: write them down somewhere, for version 2.0? 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Restarting my GuixSD server: https://gnu.org/s/guix) 2017-08-03T01:01:49Z happy_gnu joined #scheme 2017-08-03T01:02:46Z nckx joined #scheme 2017-08-03T01:03:14Z kvda joined #scheme 2017-08-03T01:03:55Z Riastradh joined #scheme 2017-08-03T01:06:30Z nomicflux joined #scheme 2017-08-03T01:11:24Z snw joined #scheme 2017-08-03T01:18:00Z tokik joined #scheme 2017-08-03T01:18:44Z tokik quit (Client Quit) 2017-08-03T01:31:24Z tokik joined #scheme 2017-08-03T01:37:08Z BitPuffin|osx joined #scheme 2017-08-03T01:38:52Z cmaloney joined #scheme 2017-08-03T01:39:14Z cmaloney: is there a way to take a list '(#f #t #t) and "and" the list (so it returns #f in this case) 2017-08-03T01:39:34Z cmaloney: my google-fu is failing me in trying to find an example of this 2017-08-03T01:56:15Z gwatt: cmaloney: for-all in r6rs, every in r7rs. (for-all values '(#f #t #t)) 2017-08-03T01:59:19Z gwatt: sorry, that's not what it's called in r7rs. (I can't find the equivalent) 2017-08-03T02:01:03Z tokik quit (Quit: leaving) 2017-08-03T02:01:21Z tokik joined #scheme 2017-08-03T02:03:22Z jcowan: gwatt, cmaloney: you need to load srfi-1 2017-08-03T02:03:36Z jcowan: there are a few srfi-1 things in R7RS, but that isn't one of them 2017-08-03T02:10:52Z Fare quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-08-03T02:12:47Z gwatt: cmaloney: you could also do (not (member #f )) 2017-08-03T02:15:35Z Fare joined #scheme 2017-08-03T02:16:58Z sleffy joined #scheme 2017-08-03T02:36:14Z badkins quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-08-03T02:37:37Z groovy2shoes quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-08-03T02:38:56Z badkins joined #scheme 2017-08-03T02:40:55Z pjb quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-08-03T02:43:45Z badkins quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-08-03T02:44:19Z groovy2shoes joined #scheme 2017-08-03T02:45:03Z ArneBab joined #scheme 2017-08-03T02:49:36Z ArneBab_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-08-03T02:49:39Z cmaloney: Thanks. I'm trying and-map for now 2017-08-03T02:54:28Z daviid quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-08-03T03:07:53Z pjb joined #scheme 2017-08-03T03:08:21Z pilne quit (Quit: Quitting!) 2017-08-03T03:16:32Z X-Scale quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-08-03T03:18:10Z pjb quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-08-03T03:43:44Z kvda quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-08-03T03:52:10Z nomicflux quit (Quit: nomicflux) 2017-08-03T04:01:04Z kvda joined #scheme 2017-08-03T04:09:00Z kvda quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. 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curious 2017-08-03T20:46:39Z bgardner: Thanks 2017-08-03T20:50:42Z sleffy quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-08-03T20:52:23Z sleffy joined #scheme 2017-08-03T20:59:49Z Riastradh quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-08-03T21:03:51Z Riastradh joined #scheme 2017-08-03T21:07:34Z cmaloney: OK, what did I accidentally do? :) 2017-08-03T21:09:15Z cmaloney: Oh, fold in srfi-1 2017-08-03T21:13:23Z ijp: rewriting other functions as a fold is one of my favourite pasttimes 2017-08-03T21:13:59Z jcowan_ looooooves fold and unfold 2017-08-03T21:14:03Z sethalves joined #scheme 2017-08-03T21:14:48Z cemerick quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-08-03T21:15:21Z cmaloney: heh 2017-08-03T21:15:46Z qu1j0t3: they get a lot of airplay in my code as well 2017-08-03T21:15:57Z sleffy quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-08-03T21:18:50Z cemerick joined #scheme 2017-08-03T21:23:27Z cemerick quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-08-03T21:27:15Z jcowan quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-08-03T21:27:28Z jcowan_ 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You just have enough in the language to be able to work. Of course, passed any application complexity, you will have to use libraries anyways, but not for basic language features like destructuring-bind. 2017-08-04T08:44:27Z jackdaniel: I'm afraid you have a bit too much in the language to be able to work (unless you already know, what you don't need to care about) - baroque 2017-08-04T08:45:35Z jackdaniel: truth must be somewhere in between :) 2017-08-04T08:45:40Z jackdaniel: in the middle° 2017-08-04T08:46:03Z ecraven: pjb: same for any of the major scheme implementations, they all come with lots of things included 2017-08-04T08:46:28Z ecraven: they are just not the same on any of those ;) 2017-08-04T08:47:21Z ecraven: jackdaniel: I'm dreaming of a Scheme that has something CLOS-like built-in (and stops embracing monomorphism as hard as Scheme now does)... 15 times -length is really not as nice as just having *one* polymorphic length function 2017-08-04T08:49:04Z arbv quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-08-04T08:49:46Z arbv joined #scheme 2017-08-04T08:53:22Z jackdaniel: ecraven: you dream about eulisp 2017-08-04T08:53:31Z jackdaniel: with its Telos object system 2017-08-04T09:00:36Z pie_ joined #scheme 2017-08-04T09:03:32Z arbv quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-08-04T09:04:55Z boycottg00gle joined #scheme 2017-08-04T09:08:01Z ejt joined #scheme 2017-08-04T09:08:28Z ejt: is there a commonly used naming convention for naming constants? eg, like +const-name+ in common lisp? 2017-08-04T09:09:45Z arbv joined #scheme 2017-08-04T09:20:31Z pjb quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-08-04T09:54:09Z Murii quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-08-04T10:17:37Z pjb joined #scheme 2017-08-04T10:31:28Z pjb quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-08-04T10:33:01Z beekill quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-08-04T10:42:01Z whoman: ejt, $constant is a common thing in scheme 2017-08-04T10:42:06Z ejt: thx 2017-08-04T10:43:59Z whoman: i think you are right though with +constant+ 2017-08-04T10:46:21Z ejt: personally I prefer + to $ 2017-08-04T10:46:28Z ejt: which reminds me of Basic 2017-08-04T10:48:57Z ertes quit (Quit: Bye!) 2017-08-04T10:50:05Z whoman quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-08-04T11:00:03Z boycottg00gle quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-08-04T11:25:38Z edgar-rft: Scheme is Basic with parens 2017-08-04T11:37:07Z http_GK1wmSU joined #scheme 2017-08-04T11:38:18Z http_GK1wmSU left #scheme 2017-08-04T12:13:53Z beekill joined #scheme 2017-08-04T12:34:28Z pie_ quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-08-04T12:44:04Z marvin2 joined #scheme 2017-08-04T12:44:36Z whoman joined #scheme 2017-08-04T12:45:55Z shdeng quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-08-04T12:46:43Z pie_ joined #scheme 2017-08-04T13:10:38Z badkins joined #scheme 2017-08-04T13:10:55Z ecraven: jackdaniel: I've read the papers, yes, sometimes I dream about those layers :-/ 2017-08-04T13:14:17Z cromachina quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-08-04T13:15:42Z badkins_ joined #scheme 2017-08-04T13:19:22Z badkins quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2017-08-04T13:26:51Z dbmikus joined #scheme 2017-08-04T13:27:41Z lritter joined #scheme 2017-08-04T13:32:37Z jmd joined #scheme 2017-08-04T13:36:10Z marvin2 quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-08-04T13:48:38Z cemerick joined #scheme 2017-08-04T13:50:20Z beekill quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-08-04T13:52:52Z Riastradh quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-08-04T13:54:29Z lolcow quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-08-04T13:59:03Z leppie joined #scheme 2017-08-04T14:19:56Z leppie quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-08-04T14:20:05Z brendos quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-08-04T14:24:03Z leppie joined #scheme 2017-08-04T14:28:18Z sz0 joined #scheme 2017-08-04T14:30:14Z rotty quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2017-08-04T14:43:52Z jmd` joined #scheme 2017-08-04T14:56:16Z pjb joined #scheme 2017-08-04T14:57:04Z rotty joined #scheme 2017-08-04T15:11:21Z alezost joined #scheme 2017-08-04T15:15:27Z jcowan quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-08-04T15:25:48Z balkamos quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-08-04T15:30:43Z balkamos joined #scheme 2017-08-04T15:35:41Z badkins_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-08-04T15:39:53Z sethalves quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2017-08-04T15:56:38Z ijp: ejt: in some schemes imported names are immutable, and so there is less need to specifically mark things that are to be kept constant 2017-08-04T15:57:48Z ijp: in fact, I would specifically mark the mutable ones rather than the immutable ones 2017-08-04T16:00:31Z jcowan joined #scheme 2017-08-04T16:00:44Z vicenteH quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-08-04T16:01:27Z gravicappa joined #scheme 2017-08-04T16:16:38Z cemerick quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-08-04T16:17:14Z cemerick joined #scheme 2017-08-04T16:26:04Z badkins joined #scheme 2017-08-04T16:30:14Z dbmikus quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-08-04T16:33:54Z dbmikus joined #scheme 2017-08-04T16:34:53Z mist_ joined #scheme 2017-08-04T16:38:03Z dbmikus_ joined #scheme 2017-08-04T16:38:48Z dbmikus quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-08-04T16:52:28Z rotty quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-08-04T16:53:52Z muzgo joined #scheme 2017-08-04T16:54:01Z muzgo left #scheme 2017-08-04T16:56:20Z daviid joined #scheme 2017-08-04T16:58:39Z ecraven: hm.. never noticed that the EuLisp module system is quite similar to what r7rs has 2017-08-04T16:59:08Z ecraven: what are some obvious uses of continuations that are not just one-shot escape continuations? 2017-08-04T16:59:46Z LeoNerd: deferrals, coroutines? 2017-08-04T16:59:54Z LeoNerd: exception traps 2017-08-04T17:00:39Z ecraven: deferrals? as in delay? 2017-08-04T17:13:47Z pilne joined #scheme 2017-08-04T17:19:57Z jonaslund quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-08-04T17:23:01Z rotty joined #scheme 2017-08-04T17:23:21Z Riastradh joined #scheme 2017-08-04T17:23:45Z sethalves joined #scheme 2017-08-04T17:24:12Z jmd quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-08-04T17:24:25Z Riastradh quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-08-04T17:27:48Z Menche quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-08-04T17:28:07Z Menche joined #scheme 2017-08-04T17:28:22Z Riastradh joined #scheme 2017-08-04T17:28:25Z gwatt: You could implement an async io system on top of them 2017-08-04T17:30:05Z rotty quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-08-04T17:34:23Z Menche quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-08-04T17:35:18Z alezost quit (Quit: I live in GuixSD and Emacs ) 2017-08-04T17:39:07Z Menche joined #scheme 2017-08-04T17:39:18Z Menche quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-08-04T17:39:37Z Menche joined #scheme 2017-08-04T17:42:37Z mist_ quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2017-08-04T17:45:27Z amz3 joined #scheme 2017-08-04T17:52:27Z mlaine joined #scheme 2017-08-04T18:00:01Z iWolf is now known as DKordic 2017-08-04T18:00:29Z vicenteH joined #scheme 2017-08-04T18:03:30Z amz3: GraphQL, as DSL aiming at replacing REST endpoints, will be the next default API at Github 2017-08-04T18:03:39Z amz3: GraphQL, as a DSL aiming at replacing REST endpoints, will be the next default API at Github 2017-08-04T18:03:52Z amz3: is there an equivalent in Scheme? 2017-08-04T18:04:06Z amz3: are people a little familiar with GraphQL and REST around? 2017-08-04T18:04:17Z amz3: wasamasa: ? 2017-08-04T18:05:12Z amz3: I don't think om-next is going to support GraphQL out-of-the-box, which is the case of Redux-next-next (I forgot its name) 2017-08-04T18:18:28Z ecraven: amz3: why not just use graphql *with* Scheme? 2017-08-04T18:27:51Z rotty joined #scheme 2017-08-04T18:28:54Z jonaslund joined #scheme 2017-08-04T18:40:01Z badkins quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-08-04T18:41:49Z amz3: yes, that's what I aiming at 2017-08-04T18:45:09Z amz3: you right I am doing search://graphql+lisp (instead of search://graphql+"scheme" which doesn't deliver) 2017-08-04T18:45:42Z gravicappa quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-08-04T18:47:31Z jmd` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-08-04T19:10:24Z dbmikus_ quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.9) 2017-08-04T19:11:10Z rotty quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-08-04T19:13:36Z wasamasa: amz3: graphql isn't about being language-specific 2017-08-04T19:13:52Z wasamasa: amz3: just as REST it's a concept 2017-08-04T19:13:56Z amz3: I know 2017-08-04T19:14:03Z wasamasa: well, why the heck do you highlight me then 2017-08-04T19:16:29Z amz3: sorry 2017-08-04T19:22:33Z lritter quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-08-04T19:34:36Z Lowl3v3l quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-08-04T19:35:03Z Lowl3v3l joined #scheme 2017-08-04T19:38:17Z rotty joined #scheme 2017-08-04T19:39:51Z jcowan: I see there is a Clojure implementation of GraphQL 2017-08-04T19:40:25Z wasamasa: rudybot: what are the odds this is the fault of clojure being oh so much more popular? 2017-08-04T19:40:26Z jcowan: someone should port Clojure to Scheme, except for that dratted JVM you'd need 2017-08-04T19:40:36Z rudybot: wasamasa: the point of that ask/anyone is second hand experience, despite it all in emacsen land issues are usually known, few and far between enough that odds are someone else (even if not an expert at it) might have bumped on them before and thus may be able to help even not being qualified 2017-08-04T19:40:44Z Riastradh: ...implement jvm in scheme... 2017-08-04T19:41:14Z jcowan: Yes, I suppose that wins, except that then you have a very thick layer between Clojure data structures and host Scheme ones 2017-08-04T19:41:31Z jcowan: If Clojure had a definition, you could implement it, but it doesn't so you can't 2017-08-04T19:41:44Z wasamasa: not like that would buy you anything 2017-08-04T19:41:57Z wasamasa: plenty of clojure libraries embrace the jvm and do interop 2017-08-04T19:42:08Z jcowan: Exactly my point 2017-08-04T19:42:22Z whoman: lisp flavoured java, fun 2017-08-04T19:42:22Z wasamasa: but I'm taking this way too seriously 2017-08-04T19:42:34Z jcowan: whoman: LLava is exactly that 2017-08-04T19:42:53Z whoman: there are many choices and options, so so many 2017-08-04T19:43:21Z jcowan: 76 toy Schemes in the big parade ... 2017-08-04T19:44:37Z whoman: i often think, if we have a nice sexp/parens/form/tree editor, then it could hardly matter what flavour, if they can talk together nicely. 2017-08-04T19:45:12Z wasamasa: now, now, I wouldn't suggest such a thing in the presence of the paredit author 2017-08-04T19:46:07Z Riastradh: Well, paredit is only a cheap imitation of a tree editor. 2017-08-04T19:47:23Z whoman: i cant live without paredit. ive tried lispy and all the rest. sexp-respecting edit ops are foundation. typing shift-9 shift-0 all day could drive anyone a little batty 2017-08-04T19:48:11Z jcowan: While counting. Don't forget counting. 2017-08-04T19:48:37Z jcowan: Actually, I type things like (let ((a 32 ... 2017-08-04T19:49:29Z jcowan: ... and then type )) while saying "close a, close pairs", then type the body and type ) while saying "close let" 2017-08-04T19:49:52Z whoman: hmm =) rainbow parens are a little too colorful. font size depending on where is mark/cursor in the form, would be interesting. we have more options for syntax highlight than those of limited syntax 2017-08-04T19:50:02Z jcowan: In some cases, like defining a macro, I know that it ends )))): "close whatever, close rule, close syntax-rules, close define-syntax" 2017-08-04T19:50:02Z whoman: yeah =) 2017-08-04T19:50:26Z jcowan: but I would like Interlisp ] instead 2017-08-04T19:50:44Z jcowan: "close all parens back to the last [ or the first (" 2017-08-04T19:50:46Z whoman: if i lose track i let emacs highlight them as i nudge the cursor around. i am also used to [] from smalltalk and objc, plus not having to SHIFT- the keys every time. 2017-08-04T19:51:06Z Riastradh: jcowan: You know there are editors these days that will do that, right? For example, there's this editor called Emacs... 2017-08-04T19:51:09Z whoman: interesting; that would be very useful. for me however i let paredit keep them closed 2017-08-04T19:51:23Z gwatt: jcowan: So what does [( ] do? 2017-08-04T19:51:25Z whoman: so i count "rhythm" like .. three this way, three back that way as symmetry. it becomes a bit musica; 2017-08-04T19:51:31Z Riastradh: gwatt: Interlisp doesn't have [. 2017-08-04T19:51:31Z jcowan: Riastradh: Yes, but I don't want to learn an editor. I already have an editor as part of me. 2017-08-04T19:51:52Z gwatt: Riastradh: jcowan said :"close all parens back to the last [ or the first (" 2017-08-04T19:51:54Z Riastradh: jcowan: Didn't you know that human editors are obsolete, according to the New York Times management? 2017-08-04T19:52:02Z Riastradh: gwatt: I sit corrected. 2017-08-04T19:52:09Z Riastradh: I forgot about that part. 2017-08-04T19:52:50Z whoman: honestly i still come across much complaint about parens. and as we all well know, C and others have actually more parens, and at least four kinds of them which also have to be matched. i think when people see the ((parens)), they dont actually see how it is to read it. they see how it is to write it out... 2017-08-04T19:52:55Z jcowan: damn, Interlisp '74 manual is loading slowly, but Google snippets strongly suggests it has [] as I described 2017-08-04T19:53:17Z jcowan: whoman: People also bitch about too many kinds of parens (as in XML) as well as too few (as in Lisps) 2017-08-04T19:53:19Z wasamasa: whoman: my favorite example for that is JS 2017-08-04T19:54:06Z whoman: at first i liked clojure's use of [] and () and even erlangs [[{}{{[[}}}{}}{}][][}}{}()() but i was also subconsciously thinking about my hands typing what i read on the computer too. 2017-08-04T19:54:14Z wasamasa: whoman: douglas crockford mentions JS being better in the parentheses department than lisp, yet you trade it in for });});)}; 2017-08-04T19:54:34Z whoman: what i have to do currently is flip my keyboard 12345-bar, into @!#$%-bar - so inversing the SHIFT- requirement 2017-08-04T19:54:44Z Riastradh: wasamasa: Is that the `stack of grumpy dwarves' emoticon? 2017-08-04T19:55:01Z gwatt: I like that I can use [] in place of () for clarity, but that I get to decide when to use them 2017-08-04T19:55:04Z whoman: wasamasa, hehe, its slightly better these days, optional semicolon =) 2017-08-04T19:55:06Z wasamasa: Riastradh: nah, just callback hell 2017-08-04T19:55:13Z jcowan: The INTERLISP read program treats square brackets as 'super-parentheses 1 : a 2017-08-04T19:55:14Z wasamasa: whoman: that thing is the devil 2017-08-04T19:55:14Z jcowan: right square bracket automatically supplies enough right parentheses to match 2017-08-04T19:55:14Z jcowan: back to the last left square bracket (in the expression being read), or if none 2017-08-04T19:55:14Z jcowan: as appeared to match the first left parentheses, 2017-08-04T19:55:27Z whoman: nah JS has nicer function defs and other things recently, its not as bad as it was. 2017-08-04T19:55:31Z jcowan: http://bitsavers.trailing-edge.com/pdf/xerox/interlisp/Interlisp_Reference_Manual_Oct_1974.pdf page 2.5 (physical page 29) 2017-08-04T19:55:40Z whoman: wasamasa, the semicolon or erlang? =) 2017-08-04T19:55:48Z wasamasa: whoman: automatic semicolon insertion 2017-08-04T19:56:00Z whoman: wasamasa, ah, i meant, optional semicolon insertion 2017-08-04T19:56:11Z ecraven: Riastradh: was there ever any actual full-blown tree editor that was better than paredit? 2017-08-04T19:56:12Z whoman: (which puts ocaml, js, erlang, in kinda the same category here) 2017-08-04T19:56:19Z Riastradh: wasamasa: I'm sure being called back to hell would make the dwarves pretty grumpy. 2017-08-04T19:57:09Z Riastradh: ecraven: Well, there was Interlisp SEdit, which was the inspiration for paredit, and there was the Kludgey Binford Editor, which I never used. Were they `better' than paredit? I dunno, sounds like that's in the eye, or fingers, of the beholder. 2017-08-04T19:59:26Z ecraven: I'll need to read up on SEdit, I remember running it, but never actually tried to learn it more in-depth 2017-08-04T19:59:29Z whoman: with everything better or worse as we pass through human times, paredit made it out alive at the least - idk about 'better' or worse for software that lasts, but there is strong and popular and broken and messy and other adjectives. 2017-08-04T20:00:50Z ecraven: I'm just wondering what paredit is missing not to be considered a "full-blown tree editor" 2017-08-04T20:03:59Z whoman: visual feedback, i think 2017-08-04T20:07:22Z solene: hello, I'm trying to use sxpath with guile but I can't find the syntax for something. I'm converting a html file to sxml structure, then I would like to get the content of some div having the class "foo". I'm using '(// div @ class (equal? "foo")) but it only returns "foo" while I want the text inside the div 2017-08-04T20:07:41Z jcowan: "Yes, chili in the eye is bad, but so is your ear. However, I would suggest you wash your hands thoroughly before going to the toilet." 2017-08-04T20:08:31Z jcowan: solene: You need to go back to the parent; it is returning just the value of the attribute node. 2017-08-04T20:09:26Z Riastradh: ecraven: It's not represented internally as a tree, and there are arbitrarily many ways to muck it up with Emacs commands that perform text operations that do not preserve tree structure. 2017-08-04T20:10:54Z whoman: solene, have you seen: https://github.com/tali713/esxml/blob/css-select/esxml-select.el 2017-08-04T20:11:55Z solene: whoman: no I didn't know that 2017-08-04T20:11:55Z amz3: solene: can you give me an example xml on which I can try the query please? 2017-08-04T20:12:17Z wasamasa: whoman: mind you, it's still WIP and less powerful than sxpath by design 2017-08-04T20:13:16Z whoman: hmm is there no xpath-like for plain sexp/json?? =) 2017-08-04T20:13:28Z solene: amz3: "
win!lose
b
" I want to get "win !" here 2017-08-04T20:13:29Z whoman: forms are essentially tagged with the first element 2017-08-04T20:13:30Z wasamasa: solene: hm, I typically use the string syntax because it's properly documented 2017-08-04T20:13:45Z solene: wasamasa: I didn't found how to use it in guile 2017-08-04T20:15:00Z solene: jcowan: do I need to use something like '(// div @ class (equal? "foo") (parent-node)) ? 2017-08-04T20:15:05Z wasamasa: solene: you'll want to select a div and test for its class, not select a class and test for its value 2017-08-04T20:15:22Z wasamasa: solene: alternatively, navigate upwards again 2017-08-04T20:16:24Z jcowan: That's what I presume the (parent-node) is doing; I don't really know SXPath as opposed to plain XPath. 2017-08-04T20:16:36Z jcowan: But yes, testing the div for its class is equivalent and more XPathy. 2017-08-04T20:17:27Z wasamasa: "The regression test suite at the end of the file SXPATH-old.scm shows a representative sample of SXPaths in both notations, juxtaposed with the corresponding XPath expressions. Most of the samples are borrowed literally from the XPath specification." 2017-08-04T20:17:36Z wasamasa: perhaps that file will help you 2017-08-04T20:19:55Z solene: even I if fetch the differnts div to check their class, I don't know how to get the value of the divs 2017-08-04T20:20:21Z solene: I think I'll ask on #guile because my problem is about sxpath and its implementation 2017-08-04T20:23:59Z solene: I can use '(// td *text*) in my example to get the value of the td, but I can't use the filter AND get the content 2017-08-04T20:41:48Z jonaslund quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-08-04T20:43:15Z jcowan: Clearly this GraphQL is a good thing, and it does not compete with REST, it *is* REST 2017-08-04T20:43:21Z jcowan: or an instance thereof 2017-08-04T20:43:35Z jcowan: the author of the docs does not appear to understand this 2017-08-04T20:48:28Z terpri joined #scheme 2017-08-04T20:49:15Z amz3: oh 2017-08-04T20:51:11Z badkins joined #scheme 2017-08-04T20:55:33Z jethier joined 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variable that stays around 2017-08-05T06:02:18Z jmd joined #scheme 2017-08-05T06:20:13Z wasamasa: solrize_: car and cadr, then create an unhygienic macro expanding into a let with them 2017-08-05T06:20:19Z wasamasa: solrize_: bonus points for error handling 2017-08-05T06:20:45Z solrize_: wasamasa what would the macro expand into? 2017-08-05T06:21:02Z solrize_: i guess i could do some defines and then set! inside a let 2017-08-05T06:21:22Z wasamasa: just a plain let is enough 2017-08-05T06:21:39Z solrize_: wasamasa suppose i have (define (a) '(3 5)) 2017-08-05T06:21:53Z solrize_: now i want to call a (giving back (3 5)) and bind the results to x and y 2017-08-05T06:21:56Z solrize_: so x=3 and y=5 2017-08-05T06:22:31Z wasamasa: (let* ((xy (a)) (x (car a)) (y (cadr a)) ...) 2017-08-05T06:23:00Z solrize_: then x and y become unbound after the let*'s scope 2017-08-05T06:23:11Z wasamasa: why, yes, that's how destructuring-bind works 2017-08-05T06:23:24Z solrize_: oh hmm 2017-08-05T06:23:40Z solrize_: what if i want the bindings to stay around? i.e. use define 2017-08-05T06:23:44Z solrize_: or equivalent 2017-08-05T06:23:59Z wasamasa: you gave the answer yourself 2017-08-05T06:24:10Z solrize_: i don't see how to do it wtih define 2017-08-05T06:24:15Z solrize_: unless you mean with set! 2017-08-05T06:24:34Z wasamasa: you'll need to have defined top-level identifiers before, then you can just set! them 2017-08-05T06:24:40Z solrize_: which doesn't have the lambda nature :) 2017-08-05T06:24:48Z wasamasa: neither does define 2017-08-05T06:24:52Z solrize_: hmm 2017-08-05T06:24:58Z wasamasa: so please stop making up bullshit requirements 2017-08-05T06:25:16Z wasamasa: if you want to do it more elegantly, you'll have to look into what your specific scheme implementation provides 2017-08-05T06:25:33Z solrize_: is define really different from let, except that the top level is implicitly in a giant let? 2017-08-05T06:25:53Z solrize_: or rather, define is a let whose scope lasts for the rest of the current environment? 2017-08-05T06:26:10Z wasamasa: read the standard 2017-08-05T06:26:20Z solrize_: yeah that's probably the best bet, find out exactly what define does 2017-08-05T06:26:28Z solrize_: thanks 2017-08-05T06:33:56Z zacts quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.9) 2017-08-05T06:46:51Z lambda-11235 quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.9) 2017-08-05T07:08:58Z pilne quit (Quit: Quitting!) 2017-08-05T07:53:36Z jmd quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-08-05T07:54:27Z bb010g_ joined #scheme 2017-08-05T07:56:03Z lockywolf_ joined #scheme 2017-08-05T07:56:30Z lockywolf quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-08-05T07:56:33Z lockywolf_ is now known as lockywolf 2017-08-05T08:18:58Z araujo__ joined #scheme 2017-08-05T08:22:11Z araujo_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-08-05T08:29:49Z lockywolf quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-08-05T08:36:15Z jmd joined #scheme 2017-08-05T08:36:31Z pygospa quit (Quit: leaving) 2017-08-05T08:36:51Z pygospa joined #scheme 2017-08-05T08:57:25Z ecraven: you could have define-destructuring (like define-values and friends) 2017-08-05T08:57:37Z ecraven: but still no lambda-nature 2017-08-05T09:08:00Z jmd quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-08-05T09:18:22Z qu1j0t3 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-08-05T09:24:12Z madmuppet006 joined #scheme 2017-08-05T09:25:11Z wigust quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-08-05T09:25:45Z madmuppet006: any chance someone can have a quick look at my mandelbrot set procedure https://pastebin.com/BiMrrWRd I can produce an image but its the wrong one thanks in advance 2017-08-05T09:38:25Z madmuppe` joined #scheme 2017-08-05T09:42:25Z madmuppet006 quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-08-05T09:43:10Z qu1j0t3 joined #scheme 2017-08-05T09:50:24Z madmuppe` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-08-05T09:52:46Z madmuppe` joined #scheme 2017-08-05T09:56:38Z pygospa quit (Quit: leaving) 2017-08-05T09:57:01Z pygospa joined #scheme 2017-08-05T09:59:15Z jmd joined #scheme 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are a foo and bar procedure that will draw to ppm files the lambda procedure draws to console on loading the file 2017-08-05T12:16:20Z davexunit joined #scheme 2017-08-05T12:36:36Z gwatt: why do you do (format port "~_") to get a single space? 2017-08-05T12:40:03Z madmuppet006: gwatt: yeah been looking for ages to find a way to do that .. documentation is a lil hard to understand 2017-08-05T12:40:40Z Riastradh joined #scheme 2017-08-05T12:40:41Z madmuppet006: thought there was some sort of #\space but cannot find how to do it 2017-08-05T12:41:08Z gwatt: (display " ") 2017-08-05T12:41:31Z madmuppet006: lol oh my .. 2017-08-05T12:41:34Z gwatt: or (display #\space) 2017-08-05T12:41:53Z madmuppet006: hmm .. will do that 2017-08-05T12:46:52Z gwatt: so foo and bar are identical except that one deals with binary ports and the other with textual? 2017-08-05T12:48:59Z madmuppet006: foo draws a ppm file in binary and bar draws the same picture using ascii instead of using binary 2017-08-05T12:49:10Z gwatt: ok 2017-08-05T12:56:47Z jmd` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-08-05T13:00:09Z gwatt: what is it supposed to look like? 2017-08-05T13:01:36Z alezost joined #scheme 2017-08-05T13:02:07Z madmuppet006: greyscale mandelbrot set 2017-08-05T13:05:11Z madmuppet006: currently looks either like lots of random lines or two balls one on top of the other 2017-08-05T13:07:03Z gwatt: I see the latter 2017-08-05T13:09:09Z madmuppet006: I get one on laptop and another on pi .. different guile on each though could have something to do with that 2017-08-05T13:10:01Z acarrico joined #scheme 2017-08-05T13:11:49Z gwatt: I get the same between guile and chez 2017-08-05T13:14:02Z madmuppet006: thought it may have something to do with floating point numbers 2017-08-05T13:19:51Z gwatt: could be 2017-08-05T13:20:11Z Riastradh: Floating-point numbers, or vagaries in the Scheme numeric tower? 2017-08-05T13:20:19Z gwatt: Does guile do exact complex numbers? 2017-08-05T13:21:12Z Riastradh: Floating-point arithmetic itself is about the most precisely standardized widely adopted part of computing. It has an undeserved reputation for being unpredictable voodoo. 2017-08-05T13:28:07Z Riastradh: madmuppet006: You might split your problem into three separate parts: 1. Does the Mandelbrot escape computation work? 2. Are you generating and passing the right set of points to it? 3. Are you generating the output format correctly? 2017-08-05T13:30:13Z madmuppet006: Riastradh: looks like guile uses inexact complex numbers so not sure what effect that has yet .. numbers 2 and 3 are correct difficult to show number 1 .. at sufficient number of points 2017-08-05T13:32:10Z madmuppet006: I can rewrite the computation to use exact numbers but the error is still a problem 2017-08-05T13:32:17Z lritter joined #scheme 2017-08-05T13:33:12Z ecraven: I would start - as Riastradh suggested - by ensuring that for a given set of test points, you reach the same conclusion as some reference implementation on their escaping or not 2017-08-05T13:33:49Z Riastradh: madmuppet006: Oh, I see, I missed the error. 2017-08-05T13:34:00Z Riastradh: madmuppet006: First, you should reindent your code following the standard indentation rules. 2017-08-05T13:34:35Z Riastradh: madmuppet006: If you're using Emacs, this is a matter of typing: C-x h C-M-\ (mark-whole-buffer, indent-region) 2017-08-05T13:34:48Z madmuppet006: Riastradh: I'm using emacs so thanks 2017-08-05T13:35:50Z Riastradh: madmuppet006: Inside a lambda, there's no need for begin; inside a branch of a cond, there's also no need for ((lambda () ...)) unless you want definitions in there, and in that case it's a little clearer to write (let () ...), which means the same thing as ((lambda () ...)). 2017-08-05T13:37:01Z Riastradh: madmuppet006: Now look at all the calls to display. Does any of them look funny? 2017-08-05T13:37:06Z Riastradh: (after you have reindented everything) 2017-08-05T13:38:38Z madmuppet006: Riastradh: I had some formats in there but changed those after chatting with gwatt 2017-08-05T13:40:10Z Riastradh: madmuppet006: Can you upload a new paste with the current version of your code, including how Emacs reindented it? 2017-08-05T13:40:23Z Riastradh: And append a current description of what the problem is? 2017-08-05T13:40:54Z madmuppet006: sure .. 2017-08-05T13:52:12Z madmuppet006: https://pastebin.com/gYAwmaLC is the new code for the binary ppm file .. when I load the file an empty ppm file appears in my directory when I (foo file-1) it draws the mandelbrot set incorrectly .. if I try again after deleting the previous ppm file I get an error which is on the bottom of the code page 2017-08-05T14:20:26Z madmuppet006: Riastradh: done .. 2017-08-05T14:24:42Z pilne joined #scheme 2017-08-05T14:27:08Z ejt: does anyone have a minute spare to help me a macros question please? 2017-08-05T14:27:14Z ejt: https://pastebin.com/Z0ePGRU9 2017-08-05T14:29:52Z gwatt: ejt: with syntax case! 2017-08-05T14:30:20Z gwatt: Assuming that the commented question in the paste is your question about macros 2017-08-05T14:30:27Z ejt: y 2017-08-05T14:30:59Z alezost quit (Quit: I live in GuixSD and Emacs ) 2017-08-05T14:32:05Z gwatt: and you can portably define syntax->list like [() '()] [(a d ...) (cons #'a (syntax->list #'(d ...)))] 2017-08-05T14:32:44Z gwatt: (using syntax-case, where "portable" means r6rs) 2017-08-05T14:33:00Z ejt: the code works that I've pasted, it's from the Dybvig book. I don't understand why 2017-08-05T14:34:15Z gwatt: run (syntax-case #'(1 2 3 4 5 6) () [(a ...) #'(a ...)]) in the repl 2017-08-05T14:35:08Z ejt: ah 2017-08-05T14:35:25Z ejt: it converts to a list of syntax objects 2017-08-05T14:35:38Z ejt: thx, I think that's the missing piece 2017-08-05T14:36:16Z gwatt: np 2017-08-05T14:37:23Z Riastradh: madmuppet006: You didn't reindent the code. Please reindent the code! 2017-08-05T14:39:12Z madmuppet006: Riastradh: I cntrl x h and then cntrl al \ the file .. emacs said indenting region done .. 2017-08-05T14:39:34Z Riastradh: madmuppet006: Are you in Scheme Mode? 2017-08-05T14:39:55Z Riastradh: Oh, I see, this may be a tabs/spaces issue. 2017-08-05T14:39:55Z pygospa quit (Quit: Lost terminal) 2017-08-05T14:40:05Z Riastradh: madmuppet006: I suggest sticking to spaces. C-x h M-x untabify 2017-08-05T14:40:07Z brendos quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-08-05T14:43:49Z madmuppet006: Riastradh: hope this works https://pastebin.com/JUCe3C08 2017-08-05T14:45:46Z Riastradh: madmuppet006: OK, that looks better, although now you've taken out the part where the display error is. 2017-08-05T14:46:13Z webshinra quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-08-05T14:46:50Z Riastradh: madmuppet006: So what's the problem now? 2017-08-05T14:47:44Z madmuppet006: Riastradh: still does not produce the correct image .. when I load the file it will run the procedure once then complain that the file is closed if I try again 2017-08-05T14:48:56Z gwatt: well yeah, you close the port in foo 2017-08-05T14:49:17Z madmuppet006: Riastradh: the second problerm is going to be easier to fix I think .. learn some more about ports display etc the first however has me beat 2017-08-05T14:49:57Z webshinra joined #scheme 2017-08-05T14:50:01Z madmuppet006: gwatt: yeah but should it open each time you run the procedure or does it open when you load it and when its closes thats it? 2017-08-05T14:51:32Z Riastradh: madmuppet006: If the caller's job is to pass in a port, you can make it the caller's job to close the port too. 2017-08-05T14:51:48Z Riastradh: Scheme provides an easy way to do this: (call-with-output-file "output.ppm" (lambda (port) (foo port))) 2017-08-05T14:54:50Z Riastradh: Sorry, gotta run! 2017-08-05T14:54:51Z Riastradh: *poof* 2017-08-05T14:55:26Z madmuppet006: Riastradh: thanks for the help 2017-08-05T14:56:56Z gwatt: madmuppet006: in the foo function, you can save some typing by changing the if condition 2017-08-05T14:57:59Z gwatt: Instead of testing against (null? (cdr ls)) you can test (null? ls) and only need one set of (put-u8 ...) 2017-08-05T15:00:46Z Steverman joined #scheme 2017-08-05T15:01:57Z dmiles quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-08-05T15:03:09Z madmuppet006: gwatt: nice 2017-08-05T15:04:57Z gwatt: and if you're going to import format, why not write (format "P6 ~a ~a ~a~%" x y maximum) 2017-08-05T15:05:58Z gwatt: assuming that guile's format matches common lisp's 2017-08-05T15:07:00Z madmuppet006: gwatt: finding decent documentation with examples is pretty hard .. the guile documentation does not really give examples of "how" to do things .. I swapped out the formats for the display " " 2017-08-05T15:07:27Z gwatt: gotcha 2017-08-05T15:14:51Z madmuppet006: gwatt: thanks for the help .. 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I suppose set! mostly makes sense in closures and with counters (or similar things) that you can't for some reason increment via tail recursion, do, etc. 2017-08-06T06:05:31Z solrize_ quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-08-06T06:06:11Z edgar-rft: tail recursion is when you cursed your tail without success, so you re-cursed it a second time? 2017-08-06T06:13:50Z jmd quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-08-06T06:14:40Z jmd joined #scheme 2017-08-06T06:17:10Z lambda-11235 quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.9) 2017-08-06T06:21:08Z whoman: =) 2017-08-06T06:34:00Z whoman quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-08-06T06:34:28Z whoman joined #scheme 2017-08-06T06:39:25Z nisstyre: aeth: set! is ok for self referential structures where you need to initialize something with an empty value 2017-08-06T06:39:27Z aeth: oops, optimal style, not optional style 2017-08-06T06:40:01Z nisstyre: and it's okay I guess if you want to emulate objects using closures 2017-08-06T06:40:15Z nisstyre: using it to keep track of state is usually a bad approach 2017-08-06T06:40:34Z nisstyre: it indicates that you're doing everything with looping constructs usually 2017-08-06T06:41:11Z aeth: do is absurdly powerful and can get rid of most setting, yes. 2017-08-06T06:42:27Z nisstyre: I usually prefer recursion or using higher order functions like fold, etc 2017-08-06T06:42:30Z ecraven: I find set! perfectly acceptable if it doesn't violate referential transparency 2017-08-06T06:44:28Z aeth: nisstyre: right, just because do can be used to eliminate most uses of set! doesn't mean that do should be the thing that's used. 2017-08-06T06:44:35Z aeth: It's just the lazy proof that set! usually isn't necessary 2017-08-06T06:45:48Z aeth: In Scheme, tail recursion usually seems more idiomatic. 2017-08-06T06:49:38Z nisstyre: aeth: this is what I had in mind for uses of set! and friends like set-car! and set-cdr! http://codepad.org/xF7S4Jb5 2017-08-06T06:50:23Z nisstyre: i.e. a circular data structure 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specialized to exact integers. We already have exact-integer-sqrt, and SRFI 94 proposed (but not by name) exact-integer-abs, exact-integer-expt, and exact-integer-log 2017-08-07T20:15:20Z jcowan: The advantage of exact-integer-expt is that it guarantees that we are not passing through inexact values, so we always get the precise mathematical result, equivalent to using multiplication. (the second arg has to be non-negative) 2017-08-07T20:18:33Z marvin3 joined #scheme 2017-08-07T20:22:19Z LeoNerd: Useful for public-key crypto 2017-08-07T20:26:43Z Riastradh: I strongly advise against the use of general-purpose arbitrary-precision integer arithmetic for cryptography. 2017-08-07T20:27:56Z Riastradh: (Also you probably want modexp, not expt, for that.) 2017-08-07T20:28:38Z kjak quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-08-07T20:28:39Z Riastradh: (But you still don't want to use a general-purpose modexp; you want to use a special-purpose modexp with Barrett reduction or Montgomery reduction using special-purpose fixed-precision constant-time integer arithmetic, not general-purpose arbitrary-precision integer arithmetic.) 2017-08-07T20:29:17Z LeoNerd: Yah, true.. Timing attacks and so on 2017-08-07T20:30:29Z Riastradh: jcowan: That would mirror Haskell's operators, at least for expt. Haskell's numeric system is a bit wacky, but there are some reasonable ideas in there. Not immediately clear to me what exact-integer-abs and exact-integer-log would do. 2017-08-07T20:31:03Z jcowan: exact-integer-abs probably isn't that useful, except of course for efficiency, but not *that* efficient because it still has to do a type dispatch. 2017-08-07T20:31:15Z jcowan: If exact-integer-log is limited to base 2, then it can be done by counting bits 2017-08-07T20:31:36Z Riastradh: Isn't that normally called integer-length? 2017-08-07T20:32:46Z jcowan: Indeed, and we do have it in the various bitwise SRFIs. 2017-08-07T20:34:04Z jcowan: So that leaves exact-integer-expt (with non-negative exponent) as a possibility 2017-08-07T20:34:55Z Riastradh: Why not just integer-expt and integer-sqrt? Why do you need `exact' as part of the name? Could even call it isqrt. 2017-08-07T20:42:24Z qu1j0t3 was wondering that too 2017-08-07T20:45:35Z sakalli quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-08-07T20:45:38Z daviid quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-08-07T20:49:12Z sleffy joined #scheme 2017-08-07T20:49:38Z Riastradh quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-08-07T20:49:56Z gwatt: Is isqrt laxatives from Apple? 2017-08-07T20:53:25Z qu1j0t3 snerks 2017-08-07T20:53:48Z qu1j0t3: ilold 2017-08-07T20:54:15Z pie_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-08-07T20:54:42Z Riastradh joined #scheme 2017-08-07T20:55:27Z pie_ joined #scheme 2017-08-07T20:59:43Z pie_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-08-07T20:59:57Z pie_ joined #scheme 2017-08-07T21:01:29Z jcowan_ joined #scheme 2017-08-07T21:04:38Z jcowan quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-08-07T21:16:18Z badkins joined #scheme 2017-08-07T21:23:25Z Fare joined #scheme 2017-08-07T21:38:58Z amz3` quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2017-08-07T21:49:54Z whoman joined #scheme 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To my mind, integer-sqrt would allow any integer, exact or inexact, and that's not what is meant. It also fits with exact-integer?, where both parts are clearly essential. 2017-08-08T15:46:04Z mejja joined #scheme 2017-08-08T15:52:10Z brendos quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-08-08T15:57:18Z pie_ joined #scheme 2017-08-08T16:00:52Z amz3` joined #scheme 2017-08-08T16:02:27Z pie_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-08-08T16:03:54Z jcowan_ joined #scheme 2017-08-08T16:06:02Z jmd joined #scheme 2017-08-08T16:06:35Z jonaslund joined #scheme 2017-08-08T16:07:11Z jcowan quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2017-08-08T16:08:47Z mejja quit (Quit: \ No newline at end of file) 2017-08-08T16:12:31Z marvin3 joined #scheme 2017-08-08T16:14:58Z marvin2 quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-08-08T16:28:26Z jcowan joined #scheme 2017-08-08T16:30:25Z jcowan_ quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-08-08T16:46:25Z jonaslund quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-08-08T16:53:59Z pie_ joined #scheme 2017-08-08T16:54:49Z pilne joined #scheme 2017-08-08T17:08:35Z pie_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-08-08T17:34:46Z pie_ joined #scheme 2017-08-08T17:49:09Z wigust quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-08-08T17:50:55Z pie_ quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-08-08T17:52:07Z wigust joined #scheme 2017-08-08T18:03:55Z jonaslund joined #scheme 2017-08-08T18:25:07Z sz0 joined #scheme 2017-08-08T18:26:10Z Riastradh joined #scheme 2017-08-08T18:44:51Z sleffy joined #scheme 2017-08-08T19:04:04Z pie_ joined #scheme 2017-08-08T19:31:37Z jonaslund quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-08-08T19:49:21Z hugo quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-08-08T19:50:47Z ejt: hi, is there a way to get an uninterned symbol? I want to use it as a unique default value for a data structure lookup value 2017-08-08T19:53:22Z cemerick joined #scheme 2017-08-08T19:55:57Z gwatt: symbol->string ? 2017-08-08T19:58:19Z cemerick quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-08-08T19:58:35Z ejt: no, not what I meant 2017-08-08T19:58:44Z ejt: I want to pass in a unique symbol 2017-08-08T19:59:10Z ejt: in common lisp I can create an uninterned symbol that will never be eq? to anything else 2017-08-08T19:59:36Z ejt: I'm sure I've seen someone do something similar in scheme, but can't remember where 2017-08-08T19:59:50Z gwatt: gensym ? 2017-08-08T20:00:15Z ejt: y, that will do I guess, I was sure there was a #.... read syntax that did this 2017-08-08T20:00:21Z cemerick joined #scheme 2017-08-08T20:00:29Z gwatt: probably depends on the scheme 2017-08-08T20:01:11Z ejt: y, gensym solves it, thx 2017-08-08T20:05:59Z gwatt: ejt: Does this value need to saved across program lifetime? 2017-08-08T20:17:01Z wigust quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-08-08T20:17:07Z jmd quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-08-08T20:17:14Z ejt: no 2017-08-08T20:17:19Z ejt: just the duration of a call 2017-08-08T20:22:10Z cemerick quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-08-08T20:23:15Z cemerick joined #scheme 2017-08-08T20:27:00Z PinealGlandOptic joined #scheme 2017-08-08T20:32:28Z hugo1 joined #scheme 2017-08-08T20:44:48Z CORDIC: ejt: `Maybe'? ``Nothing'' or ``(Just whatever)'' including ``(Just Nothing)'' :) . 2017-08-08T20:55:05Z cemerick quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-08-08T21:05:36Z jcowan: I've been thinking about ways to do Maybe in Scheme for a while now. I think IWBNI `maybe` is a record with one field `just`, and `nothing` is identified with #f. That way, you can use regular conditionals to test maybe objects. 2017-08-08T21:07:35Z Riastradh quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-08-08T21:12:22Z jcowan_ joined #scheme 2017-08-08T21:15:33Z jcowan quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-08-08T21:17:12Z pierpa joined #scheme 2017-08-08T21:19:56Z Lowl3v3l joined #scheme 2017-08-08T21:32:07Z jcowan joined #scheme 2017-08-08T21:34:58Z jcowan_ quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2017-08-08T21:40:08Z Lowl3v3l quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-08-08T21:41:10Z igajsin quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-08-08T21:44:40Z ertes joined #scheme 2017-08-08T21:57:16Z n_blownapart joined #scheme 2017-08-08T21:58:28Z n_blownapart is now known as crucify_me 2017-08-08T22:01:29Z gwatt: at that point why even bother with a special maybe type? 2017-08-08T22:01:33Z gwatt: jcowan: ^^ 2017-08-08T22:02:54Z jcowan: gwatt: It insures that (just #f) is not the same as nothing. 2017-08-08T22:03:46Z jcowan: and since maybes are opaque, you will not be allowed to write (+ (// n d) x) where // returns a maybe 2017-08-08T22:03:59Z jcowan: thus eliminating the (+ #f x) path 2017-08-08T22:07:23Z jcowan: of course you can define ++ to accept two maybes and return #f if either is #f 2017-08-08T22:07:26Z jcowan: and so on 2017-08-08T22:07:36Z jcowan: eventually you need to unwrap the maybe 2017-08-08T22:09:40Z jcowan: You can also have a function (define (maybe-lift proc . args) (if (every args) (apply proc args) #f)) 2017-08-08T22:09:58Z edgar-rft: I think the entire life is made of nested maybes. 2017-08-08T22:12:07Z dbmikus quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.9) 2017-08-08T22:13:30Z CORDIC ROFL 2017-08-08T22:18:58Z BitPuffin|osx quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-08-08T22:25:43Z crucify_me quit 2017-08-08T22:35:45Z jcowan quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-08-08T22:45:19Z groscoe joined #scheme 2017-08-08T22:53:21Z badkins quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-08-08T22:57:16Z pie_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 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joined #scheme 2017-08-09T09:09:37Z vicenteH joined #scheme 2017-08-09T09:22:17Z hugo1 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-08-09T09:25:15Z jonaslund quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2017-08-09T09:31:09Z jackdaniel joined #scheme 2017-08-09T09:31:28Z ByronJohnson joined #scheme 2017-08-09T09:31:32Z fadein joined #scheme 2017-08-09T09:31:32Z terpri joined #scheme 2017-08-09T09:31:43Z Murii quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-08-09T09:32:56Z ejt: "Exception: attempt to reference out-of-phase identifier size-type at ..." 2017-08-09T09:33:04Z ejt: what does out-of-phase mean? 2017-08-09T09:33:15Z ejt: this is on chez scheme if that helps 2017-08-09T09:33:26Z jonaslund joined #scheme 2017-08-09T09:33:39Z copec joined #scheme 2017-08-09T09:34:11Z benaiah joined #scheme 2017-08-09T09:35:06Z owickstrom quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-08-09T09:36:43Z owickstrom joined #scheme 2017-08-09T09:45:03Z ecthiender quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-08-09T09:54:16Z beekill quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-08-09T09:56:06Z Murii joined #scheme 2017-08-09T10:08:50Z hugo1 joined #scheme 2017-08-09T10:14:05Z angelds quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-08-09T10:18:04Z madmuppet006 joined #scheme 2017-08-09T10:27:08Z jonaslund quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-08-09T10:28:56Z Lowl3v3l quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-08-09T10:32:48Z druidofluhn quit (Quit: leaving) 2017-08-09T10:36:14Z jonaslund joined #scheme 2017-08-09T10:45:28Z druidofl1 joined #scheme 2017-08-09T11:00:16Z ijp: ejt: e.g. using an identifier that is only available at compile type at run time 2017-08-09T11:01:21Z ejt: ijp: thx 2017-08-09T11:01:45Z ejt: I'm struggling with syntax-case as you may have guessed 2017-08-09T11:01:56Z ijp: there are more than just two phases in a sufficiently complicated module, but that's the gist 2017-08-09T11:03:17Z ejt: https://github.com/jthornber/thin-provisioning-tools/blob/2017-08-08-rewrite-some-more-cucumber-tests/functional-tests/binary-format.scm 2017-08-09T11:03:19Z rudybot: http://teensy.info/6qhU3IuACV 2017-08-09T11:04:02Z ejt: the issue is my use of size-type on line 35 2017-08-09T11:04:36Z ejt: syntax->datum feels wrong to me 2017-08-09T11:05:04Z ijp: it usually is, but I don't think that's the problem 2017-08-09T11:05:56Z ejt: I'm trying to calculate a set of offsets of the fields 2017-08-09T11:06:24Z whoma1 joined #scheme 2017-08-09T11:06:42Z ijp: I forget the subtleties of psyntax and implicit phasing, but I would expect the issue is that size-type is not available at macro expansion time 2017-08-09T11:07:25Z ijp: which would be remedied by putting it in the binary-format lambda, or importing it for expand from another module 2017-08-09T11:08:19Z ejt: ah, that makes sense, because this stuff appeared to work a couple of days ago, but maybe that was because the env had a definition of size-type already in it 2017-08-09T11:09:11Z ejt: is there a way to evaluate stuff at compile time like in CL? 2017-08-09T11:09:54Z whoman quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2017-08-09T11:10:39Z ijp: I don't know about chez specifics here, but afaik psyntax doesn't have a way to mark something to be evaluated at a particular phase 2017-08-09T11:11:10Z ejt: k, moving inside the lambda(x) fixed it thx :) 2017-08-09T11:11:16Z ejt: been staring at that all morning 2017-08-09T11:14:53Z madmuppe` joined #scheme 2017-08-09T11:14:56Z madmuppet006 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-08-09T11:15:04Z madmuppe` left #scheme 2017-08-09T11:32:08Z Murii quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2017-08-09T11:32:34Z gwatt: ayo 2017-08-09T11:38:10Z sakalli quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-08-09T11:40:08Z rotty quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-08-09T11:56:13Z BitPuffin|osx joined #scheme 2017-08-09T12:01:06Z cromachina joined #scheme 2017-08-09T12:01:09Z cromachina quit (Client Quit) 2017-08-09T12:01:26Z cromachina joined #scheme 2017-08-09T12:07:27Z rotty joined #scheme 2017-08-09T12:20:48Z arifuzzaman joined #scheme 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y'all use geiser? 2017-08-09T20:09:41Z wasamasa: that's not a terribly useful question 2017-08-09T20:10:16Z Lowl3v3l quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-08-09T20:11:47Z X-Scale left #scheme 2017-08-09T20:15:59Z Steverman joined #scheme 2017-08-09T20:16:04Z cemerick quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2017-08-09T20:16:32Z Riastradh quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2017-08-09T20:19:50Z Riastradh joined #scheme 2017-08-09T20:31:40Z Steverman quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.9) 2017-08-09T20:38:10Z ssake joined #scheme 2017-08-09T20:41:24Z vicenteH joined #scheme 2017-08-09T20:41:28Z hooverville quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-08-09T20:44:56Z n_blownapart joined #scheme 2017-08-09T20:45:54Z jmd quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-08-09T20:49:51Z alezost quit (Quit: I live in GuixSD and Emacs ) 2017-08-09T20:50:02Z lritter quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-08-09T20:58:49Z badkins quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-08-09T21:00:57Z carc quit (Quit: QUIT) 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that don't seem to be errors, does anyone know how to fix that 2017-08-09T23:04:05Z jcob: like in a simple hello world program, it spits out: (print "hello world") \n => #unspecified \n "hello world" 2017-08-09T23:04:23Z jcob: but the problem seems to go away by itself with larger programs, for some reason 2017-08-09T23:08:15Z ijp: the unspecified isn't an error, but the return value 2017-08-09T23:08:38Z ijp: arguably it should ignore #unspecified 2017-08-09T23:12:00Z cromachina joined #scheme 2017-08-09T23:17:18Z jcowan joined #scheme 2017-08-09T23:28:55Z daviid joined #scheme 2017-08-09T23:50:05Z aeth: That's probably my least favorite part about Scheme... implementations taking unspecified as literally... unspecified. 2017-08-09T23:50:18Z aeth: It takes away a lot of the composability of expressions. 2017-08-09T23:51:18Z ijp: I don't see how having a specific unspecified object that is returned in some circumstances is any less composable than doing some other stupid thing 2017-08-09T23:51:33Z aeth: Iirc, there are a lot of things in CL that return NIL that in Scheme return unspecified or something else instead of #f and that is annoying on certain edge cases. 2017-08-09T23:51:56Z emacsomancer quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-08-09T23:51:59Z aeth: It has been probably 1.5 years since I hit one of those edge cases, though, so it would take me too long to find them 2017-08-09T23:52:14Z marvin3 quit 2017-08-09T23:52:38Z gwatt: could alwasy just do (define undefined (if #f #f)) 2017-08-09T23:53:05Z ijp: which is 1) what most do, and 2) is a nonsense expression to begin with 2017-08-09T23:53:24Z emacsomancer joined #scheme 2017-08-09T23:53:41Z ijp: as for me, I dream of a world in which specification authors actually think specifying things is important 2017-08-09T23:56:52Z aeth: It's just imo sad because Scheme properly calls NIL #f (i.e. false), which clears up a lot of confusion (e.g. cl-json, the #1 JSON library for CL, somehow thinks that nil is best translated as JSON's null rather than false, which is absolutely ridiculous) but then goes ahead and doesn't use #f in a lot of places where it makes sense as such. 2017-08-09T23:57:11Z emacsomancer quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-08-09T23:57:13Z aeth: So it's a place where Scheme could get a true, big advantage over CL, if it used its #f more. At least, imo. 2017-08-09T23:57:41Z brendos joined #scheme 2017-08-09T23:57:58Z aeth: Obviously the #f vs. '() distinction is key in Scheme, I'm not arguing that, but pretty much everything that's NIL in CL and nothing rather than #f in Scheme is something that bothers me. 2017-08-09T23:58:03Z gwatt: I think it's OK to not specify some return values, especially for functions that perform writes 2017-08-09T23:59:45Z aeth: I think everything that's an expression should have *some* specified return value. That's one reason why I use expression languages, not the more mainstream languages. Even if it has side effects that are the primary effect. 2017-08-10T00:00:09Z aeth: Some very large program inevitably has some strange situation where a return value can be useful. 2017-08-10T00:00:48Z gwatt: sure 2017-08-10T00:05:13Z aeth: A good example is (display "Hello\n"), which I think is unspecified, which I think usually means it returns literally the unspecified object. Compare with CL's print, which returns the string it prints. (format, however, does not, but at least it returns NIL, which is equivalent here to Scheme's #f) 2017-08-10T00:07:12Z leppie quit 2017-08-10T00:08:06Z aeth: You might want more than just the side-effect in some edge cases, e.g. for logging. Now you have to create a variable, even if it's a literal string. 2017-08-10T00:08:59Z aeth: (define (foo) (display "Hello\n")) becomes (define (foo) (let ((text "Hello\n")) (display text) text) 2017-08-10T00:09:35Z aeth: All because display isn't acting like an expression. 2017-08-10T00:10:09Z jcowan quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-08-10T00:10:52Z basket: I always felt it was poor style in CL to use things like PRINT's return value. 2017-08-10T00:11:14Z aeth: The thing is, any side-effect-only function is going to either have to think ahead and set up a return value like I just did, or return essentially a useless value by ending in a call to display 2017-08-10T00:11:31Z aeth: And you don't really know what that function is going to eventually be used for once you write it 2017-08-10T00:12:23Z aeth: I don't think it's good style in a Lisp to have user-written functions that essentially return nothing, even if they return something that is 99% of the time useless instead. 2017-08-10T00:13:08Z emacsomancer joined #scheme 2017-08-10T00:14:04Z basket: Functions should generally do one thing, and if you're using something both for its side effects and its return value, you're using it for two things at once. I think that's why I find it unaesthetic 2017-08-10T00:15:12Z aeth: But there are legitimate reasons to do so, like testing, debugging, interactive REPL-based development, logging, etc. 2017-08-10T00:16:58Z aeth: Maybe for debugging I want to have a data structure store what was printed over time, and if a procedure foo both prints and returns strings, then I can easily log that just by calling foo repeatedly and setting the return value to an incrementing index, no modifications necessary. 2017-08-10T00:19:58Z gwatt: yeah, actually I think set!s returning the value and writes returning the written value is nice 2017-08-10T00:20:20Z gwatt: screw void | unspecified | w/e 2017-08-10T00:20:42Z aeth: ah, right, set!s are the other 2017-08-10T00:20:53Z aeth: they might actually have use outside of debugging, too 2017-08-10T00:21:45Z aeth: composing setting is potentially ugly, but can make code more concise 2017-08-10T00:23:40Z aeth: People shouldn't fear setting. What I find works best in Lisp-style languages (or at least the traditional ones like Common Lisp and Scheme and Emacs Lisp) is tiny pure functions feeding into mutable data structures. A mostly functional style. 2017-08-10T00:23:43Z basket: It's not hard to write a macro that sets several variables to the same value 2017-08-10T00:24:04Z basket: Maybe if you're doing C-style pre/post-inc/dec stuff 2017-08-10T00:24:05Z gwatt: no, but that's not what I'm talking about 2017-08-10T00:24:50Z aeth: basket: what about e.g. (display (set! x 42)) 2017-08-10T00:25:11Z aeth: obviously a real-world use case would be a bit more complex 2017-08-10T00:25:53Z aeth: Now you have to do (set! x 42) (display x) which actually looks more like C-style than the former composition of procedures 2017-08-10T00:26:10Z aeth: And if it's not that straightforward, it can get even messier 2017-08-10T00:29:02Z aeth: I view the Lisp/Scheme way as composition if at all possible, i.e. I try to avoid stuff like (x) (y) (z) if I can (which obviously doesn't always work, especially for e.g. foreign-calling C stuff) 2017-08-10T00:30:00Z aeth: In other words, I try to avoid progn in CL or begin in Scheme (or forms where that is implict) 2017-08-10T00:30:20Z gwatt: aeth: like let and lambda? 2017-08-10T00:30:48Z aeth: right, if I have a let or lambda, I try to get it done in one level of the let... and if I have a do, I try to use a zero-body do, etc. 2017-08-10T00:30:59Z aeth: s/one level/one line after the definitions/ 2017-08-10T00:31:14Z aeth: This doesn't *always* work, but I find it more elegant when it does 2017-08-10T00:31:33Z aeth: In fact, I went from beginner to intermediate when I stopped trying to force this where it just made things way messier 2017-08-10T00:35:03Z aeth: Some things are just far too procedural for this to make sense, too. 2017-08-10T00:35:24Z lambda-11235 joined #scheme 2017-08-10T00:38:36Z cemerick joined #scheme 2017-08-10T00:45:14Z aeth: In case I'm unclear, I prefer things like this: (+ x y (/ (- z w) (* u v))) because I can compose them, and put the result as a variable in e.g. a let without even needing to resort to setting most of the time. 2017-08-10T00:45:27Z aeth: And where possible, I like to write things that behave like +, /, -, *, etc. 2017-08-10T00:46:40Z aeth: The equivalent done in procedural order is a mess and lacks clarity. 2017-08-10T00:52:57Z dbmikus quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-08-10T00:55:10Z pjb quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-08-10T01:24:15Z pjb joined #scheme 2017-08-10T01:24:45Z jcob quit (Quit: leaving) 2017-08-10T01:38:12Z cemerick quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-08-10T01:38:30Z badkins joined #scheme 2017-08-10T01:38:49Z pjb quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-08-10T01:39:02Z whoman quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-08-10T01:39:20Z badkins_ joined #scheme 2017-08-10T01:43:40Z badkins quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2017-08-10T01:49:05Z sethalves quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-08-10T01:51:26Z emacsoma` joined #scheme 2017-08-10T02:18:38Z edgar-rft joined #scheme 2017-08-10T02:37:32Z ArneBab_ joined #scheme 2017-08-10T02:41:37Z ArneBab quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-08-10T02:48:57Z badkins_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-08-10T02:55:29Z jcowan joined #scheme 2017-08-10T02:57:32Z daviid quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-08-10T03:22:57Z sleffy quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-08-10T03:25:47Z sleffy joined #scheme 2017-08-10T03:27:43Z joast joined #scheme 2017-08-10T03:42:31Z jonaslund quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-08-10T03:48:24Z sethalves joined #scheme 2017-08-10T03:51:12Z jonaslund joined #scheme 2017-08-10T03:59:42Z pilne quit (Quit: Quitting!) 2017-08-10T04:08:18Z n_blownapart joined #scheme 2017-08-10T04:10:44Z crucify_me joined #scheme 2017-08-10T04:13:10Z emacsoma` quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2017-08-10T04:15:39Z qlippoth joined #scheme 2017-08-10T04:25:31Z jmd joined #scheme 2017-08-10T04:27:57Z PinealGlandOptic quit (Quit: leaving) 2017-08-10T04:28:05Z jonaslund quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-08-10T04:50:33Z leppie joined #scheme 2017-08-10T05:04:48Z crucify_me quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-08-10T05:04:48Z n_blownapart quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-08-10T05:15:00Z jmd quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-08-10T05:15:46Z Riastradh joined #scheme 2017-08-10T05:23:43Z emacsoma` joined #scheme 2017-08-10T05:24:48Z ecraven: jackdaniel: after reading the eulisp papers again, I wish that had gone forward :-/ 2017-08-10T05:29:07Z wasamasa: maybe it would have if they called it uslisp 2017-08-10T05:29:12Z hive-mind quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-08-10T05:29:35Z jackdaniel: heh 2017-08-10T05:30:02Z jackdaniel: maybe hybrid implementation featuring both CL and EuLisp (so the latter may use libraries from the former) would be some boost for the language 2017-08-10T05:31:10Z wasamasa: there is nothing funnier than programming language discussions where people believe they just know what would have helper their favorite to become popular while snubbing JS and PHP 2017-08-10T05:31:17Z ecraven: jackdaniel: you're an actual heavy CL user, are there ever problems with the imperative nature of generic functions? does it ever happen that importing some module gives you methods that you didn't expect and that break things? 2017-08-10T05:31:54Z ecraven: wasamasa: well, there's probably no connection between "beautiful and nice" languages and popularity ;) 2017-08-10T05:32:16Z wasamasa: ecraven: it doesn't help that scala people at work consider it beautiful and nice 2017-08-10T05:34:29Z ecraven: yea, there's of course the fact that it is totally subjective ;) 2017-08-10T05:34:41Z wigust joined #scheme 2017-08-10T05:34:48Z ecraven: that HN thread about scala considering log32(n) "effectively constant time" was interesting 2017-08-10T05:34:56Z ecraven: O(log32(n)) that is 2017-08-10T05:36:07Z wasamasa: I heard that notion from clojure first 2017-08-10T05:36:45Z ecraven: well, it's an effective idea, suddenly so many things are "effectively constant time" :D 2017-08-10T05:36:57Z hive-mind joined #scheme 2017-08-10T05:37:12Z wasamasa: if you implement your data structures with 32 branches per level, sure 2017-08-10T05:37:51Z ecraven: *and* if you only have 32bit maximum length 2017-08-10T05:38:25Z wasamasa: it makes time constant for small hash tables (such as those embedded as code literals) and doesn't change much for bigger ones 2017-08-10T05:44:08Z leppie quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-08-10T05:48:14Z leppie joined #scheme 2017-08-10T05:55:08Z dbmikus joined #scheme 2017-08-10T05:55:11Z jackdaniel: ecraven: re generic functions, I haven't encountered situation when they break stuff, but indeed some libraries create around methods to do their stuff 2017-08-10T05:55:30Z jackdaniel: usually its fine though. I can imagine badly written library which breaks things though 2017-08-10T05:56:36Z jackdaniel: wasamasa: I've mentioned EuLisp in context of CL, because I was thinking about a project, where I add EuLisp support to ECL as a second option, so my thoughts are wrapped around this idea 2017-08-10T05:56:54Z jackdaniel: that said I don't know when I'll have some time to really think it through 2017-08-10T05:57:10Z wasamasa: I guess the more important question is whether it's worth it 2017-08-10T05:57:30Z wasamasa: I have so many things on my TODO.org that I can't just go after everything that seems to be interesting 2017-08-10T05:57:42Z jackdaniel: lucky to me I'm master of my own efforts and judgement :) 2017-08-10T05:58:03Z jackdaniel: I share the sentiment though, it's virtually impossible to chase all the interests one may have 2017-08-10T05:59:26Z jackdaniel: ecraven: interesting thing is, that such imperative nature of generic functions is well lined with extensibility for some kind of application 2017-08-10T05:59:32Z dbmikus quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-08-10T05:59:42Z jackdaniel: for instance McCLIM is basically big hairy ball of protocols expressed in terms of generic functions 2017-08-10T06:00:01Z jackdaniel: so extending it is a matter of specializing GFs of interest 2017-08-10T06:03:44Z jackdaniel: ecraven: drawbag of GFs is that we interact with living system, so method may be added at any time. That means we *can't* inline them not perform some optimizations what means, that they are much slower than normal functions 2017-08-10T06:05:00Z ecraven: jackdaniel: has anyone ever proposed making protocols a bit more first-class? 2017-08-10T06:05:12Z ecraven: maybe like in smalltalk, where they are just a lose collection of functions 2017-08-10T06:05:22Z ecraven: so something like just passing :protocol "myprotocol" to the gf? 2017-08-10T06:08:19Z sleffy quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-08-10T06:12:09Z aeth: I'm pretty sure language popularity is just when people have no other choice... like C being the only high level language on many platforms (even today), or C++ being the only way to do things at a higher abstraction level than C with C-like performance in certain contexts and C compatibility... or JavaScript being the only way to write browser client code. etc. 2017-08-10T06:13:10Z aeth: And PHP not too long ago was basically mandatory with cheap "LAMP" hosting, i.e. you didn't really have control over the platform. 2017-08-10T06:14:19Z aeth: Java, Python, C#, C++, etc., all use large numbers of major libraries as a draw. You don't have to like the language, but it might have a library that makes your life much easier. 2017-08-10T06:17:47Z aeth: Lisp has... Emacs, Macsyma/Maxima, and CLIM. They all feel like a product of the 1980s (because they are) and Emacs uses an already-archaic-on-release Lisp due to the personal preferences of its creator at the time. 2017-08-10T06:19:43Z akkad: R "hey wait up guys" MS 2017-08-10T06:20:00Z jackdaniel: ecraven: in fact some did (including me), but I haven't encountered any proposal so far 2017-08-10T06:20:33Z sleffy joined #scheme 2017-08-10T06:21:26Z jackdaniel: CL lacks concept of a protocol sadly, closest thing I saw was slime's definterface macro I think 2017-08-10T06:30:00Z ecraven: jackdaniel: hm.. I have to play around with ECL a bit more, just compiled Youtoo a few days ago 2017-08-10T06:32:13Z Murii joined #scheme 2017-08-10T06:38:06Z qlippoth quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-08-10T06:39:08Z tokik quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-08-10T06:40:36Z tokik joined #scheme 2017-08-10T06:54:32Z jonaslund joined #scheme 2017-08-10T07:06:42Z beekill joined #scheme 2017-08-10T07:07:29Z whoman joined #scheme 2017-08-10T07:17:15Z lambda-11235 quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.9) 2017-08-10T07:17:54Z cross quit (Quit: Lost terminal) 2017-08-10T07:43:12Z dbmikus joined #scheme 2017-08-10T07:48:19Z dbmikus quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2017-08-10T07:56:30Z C-Keen quit (Quit: upgrade bbl) 2017-08-10T08:01:25Z ArneBab joined #scheme 2017-08-10T08:03:47Z ArneBab_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-08-10T08:06:09Z tankfeeder joined #scheme 2017-08-10T08:10:59Z gravicappa joined #scheme 2017-08-10T08:17:35Z ejt: is anyone here shipping binaries for a project written in scheme? 2017-08-10T08:20:00Z tokik quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-08-10T08:23:07Z ecraven: ejt: I have shipped worlds dumped from mit-scheme to production 2017-08-10T08:23:17Z ecraven: but not self-contained binaries 2017-08-10T08:23:31Z ejt: k 2017-08-10T08:23:46Z ejt: I'm wondering about rewriting some system tools in chez scheme 2017-08-10T08:24:03Z ejt: they need to be smallish binaries since they can run at boot time 2017-08-10T08:25:35Z ecraven: maybe just try it? 2017-08-10T08:25:57Z ecraven: not sure how large self-contained binaries would be. chicken and chibi need a library I think (though chicken can compile static binaries, but they aren't small) 2017-08-10T08:26:05Z ejt: y, I just wondered if there were any gotcha's 2017-08-10T08:26:20Z ejt: as far as I can tell I'd need to ship 3 .so files 2017-08-10T08:26:42Z ecraven: maybe people in #chez know details ;) 2017-08-10T08:27:57Z ejt: you're right, it's too busy in here, let's split up the community some more ;) 2017-08-10T08:28:27Z ecraven: not me, I'd prefer it all stay here ;) 2017-08-10T08:29:09Z ejt: do you have a feel for which scheme implementation people use most? 2017-08-10T08:32:11Z ecraven: my guess would be (in no particular order) racket, chicken, guile, then the others 2017-08-10T08:33:07Z ejt: ok 2017-08-10T08:33:08Z basket quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-08-10T08:33:29Z ejt: my 9 year has been playing with Racket a bit, she likes the turtle graphics library 2017-08-10T08:44:36Z mario-goulart quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-08-10T08:52:50Z solene quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-08-10T08:54:35Z qu1j0t3 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-08-10T08:59:40Z C-Keen joined #scheme 2017-08-10T09:04:27Z sleffy quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-08-10T09:04:35Z tokik joined #scheme 2017-08-10T09:21:32Z beekill quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-08-10T09:31:20Z dbmikus joined #scheme 2017-08-10T09:32:49Z pjb joined #scheme 2017-08-10T09:35:49Z dbmikus quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-08-10T09:36:18Z druidofl1 is now known as druidofluhn 2017-08-10T09:36:27Z qu1j0t3 joined #scheme 2017-08-10T09:51:32Z wigust quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-08-10T09:53:37Z wigust joined #scheme 2017-08-10T10:08:57Z Murii quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-08-10T10:20:51Z Murii joined #scheme 2017-08-10T10:49:04Z mario-goulart joined #scheme 2017-08-10T11:19:29Z dbmikus joined #scheme 2017-08-10T11:23:30Z dbmikus quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-08-10T11:54:01Z pjb quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2017-08-10T12:00:43Z BitPuffin|osx joined #scheme 2017-08-10T12:13:22Z gwatt: ejt: you only need petite and petite.boot 2017-08-10T12:14:18Z gwatt: You can still use the FFI from compiled files without scheme.boot 2017-08-10T12:14:45Z ejt: gwatt: thx 2017-08-10T12:15:15Z gwatt: Which system scripts are you thinking about replacing with scheme? 2017-08-10T12:19:45Z jcowan quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-08-10T12:20:04Z ejt: https://github.com/jthornber/thin-provisioning-tools 2017-08-10T12:25:13Z sakalli quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2017-08-10T12:26:28Z ejt: I'm starting by replacing the ruby/cucumber functional tests with scheme 2017-08-10T12:27:16Z gwatt: I thought cucumber tests were a java thing? 2017-08-10T12:28:43Z ejt: I guess you could use it with javva, but it's originally a ruby tool 2017-08-10T12:29:22Z gwatt: ah 2017-08-10T12:36:17Z badkins joined #scheme 2017-08-10T12:40:26Z gwatt: ejt: why do you define a custom sizeof for little endian integers? 2017-08-10T12:40:42Z gwatt: you can do (ftype-sizeof integer-32) 2017-08-10T12:41:27Z Murii quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-08-10T12:42:55Z ejt: I didn't know about ftype-sizeof 2017-08-10T12:43:16Z ejt: plus I need to specify the fact that it's little endian 2017-08-10T12:43:27Z gwatt: doesn't matter to the size 2017-08-10T12:43:51Z ejt: no, but I want to specify the fields like this: 2017-08-10T12:44:24Z ejt: (binary-format (btree-node pack-node unpack-node) ((csum le32) (nr-entries le32) ...) 2017-08-10T12:45:01Z tankfeeder left #scheme 2017-08-10T12:45:12Z ejt: https://github.com/jthornber/thin-provisioning-tools/blob/2017-08-08-rewrite-some-more-cucumber-tests/functional-tests/btree.scm 2017-08-10T12:45:14Z rudybot: http://teensy.info/NBEA8JMiSh 2017-08-10T12:45:26Z ejt: ^^ an example of using binary-format 2017-08-10T12:50:02Z dbmikus joined #scheme 2017-08-10T12:54:25Z dbmikus quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-08-10T12:56:35Z Steverman joined #scheme 2017-08-10T13:01:44Z jcowan joined #scheme 2017-08-10T13:07:01Z wasamasa quit (Quit: ZNC 1.6.5 - http://znc.in) 2017-08-10T13:07:01Z jonaslund quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-08-10T13:07:34Z jonaslund joined #scheme 2017-08-10T13:08:40Z wasamasa joined #scheme 2017-08-10T13:11:51Z jcowan_ joined #scheme 2017-08-10T13:14:55Z jcowan quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-08-10T13:17:41Z beekill_ joined #scheme 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2017-08-10T15:47:48Z ejt: y, that would be ideal, but performance is really critical for these apps 2017-08-10T15:48:08Z ejt: and chez seems to be a lot faster in the benchmarks I've seen 2017-08-10T15:48:35Z jcowan_: You shouldn't go by that: you should test your own code in Chez, Chicken, and Gambit at least, maybe Bigloo. 2017-08-10T15:48:51Z jcowan_: Chez requires more of a distribution environment 2017-08-10T15:48:52Z ejt: y, I have to write it first ... 2017-08-10T15:50:13Z druidofluhn: larceny appears to be fast too (just behind Chez) 2017-08-10T15:50:26Z ejt: I've not looked at that one 2017-08-10T15:51:39Z xieyuheng left #scheme 2017-08-10T15:51:46Z ejt: thinking about it I suspect I'll have to use chicken for the architectures that Chez doesn't support (s390 etc) 2017-08-10T15:52:05Z sakalli quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-08-10T15:53:02Z jcowan_: Chicken is also a much richer library environment 2017-08-10T15:53:15Z jcowan_: Yes, I forgot to mention Larceny 2017-08-10T16:11:31Z jcowan_ is now known as jcowan 2017-08-10T16:13:52Z emacsomancer quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-08-10T16:18:28Z windsing joined #scheme 2017-08-10T16:21:39Z basket joined #scheme 2017-08-10T16:30:21Z Riastradh joined #scheme 2017-08-10T16:30:43Z gwatt: ejt: what do you do that you're dealing with s390s? 2017-08-10T16:32:41Z _rht joined #scheme 2017-08-10T16:34:04Z jonaslund quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-08-10T16:34:55Z jonaslund joined #scheme 2017-08-10T16:35:38Z Riastradh quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-08-10T16:37:31Z jcowan: It's the principle of the thing! Of course your software has to be able to run on PDP-11's running RT-11! That's why autoconf exists. 2017-08-10T16:38:22Z jackdaniel: dam, I have to fill a bug report then 2017-08-10T16:38:30Z gwatt: and then autoconf procedes to exceed the system resources of the PDP-11 2017-08-10T16:38:46Z jonaslund usually tests on windows, osx, linux(rpi-arm) and freebsd when "caring" about portability 2017-08-10T16:39:21Z jonaslund: usually you can get away with a couple of #ifdef's and not even need autoconf 2017-08-10T16:39:26Z jackdaniel also does openbsd, which is a bit more picky than freebsd 2017-08-10T16:40:11Z jonaslund: jackdaniel: anything major one should consider with openbsd ? 2017-08-10T16:40:33Z wasamasa: servers? 2017-08-10T16:40:43Z jonaslund: no i mean in terms of coding 2017-08-10T16:40:47Z Riastradh joined #scheme 2017-08-10T16:40:56Z wasamasa: security!!! 2017-08-10T16:41:23Z jackdaniel: jonaslund: they made their compilers and libraries fail on some insecure stuff 2017-08-10T16:41:44Z jcowan: Chicken takes what I think is the Right Policy today: we implement a few standard systems, and if you want to get your port into the standard release, you have to send a sub-Makefile along with it. 2017-08-10T16:41:47Z jonaslund: jackdaniel: removed strcpy ? 2017-08-10T16:42:00Z jackdaniel: I don't remember details, but that's about it - when you have warning in "normal" gcc, on openbsd fork you'll have build failed 2017-08-10T16:42:21Z jcowan: Chibi also does this, but it is politer: it has a little script that uses gmake variables to figure out which standard system you are on 2017-08-10T16:42:45Z jackdaniel: afair they have problems with executing code from data segment as well 2017-08-10T16:42:55Z jackdaniel: that's why dumping images doesn't necessarily work 2017-08-10T16:43:37Z jonaslund: jackdaniel: w^x is getting implemented on more systems though by default though so that's just a good thing 2017-08-10T16:43:41Z jackdaniel: fwiw I don't like openbsd, it's hard to use 2017-08-10T16:44:12Z jackdaniel: you probably need to know it to use it, no handicaps for newbies 2017-08-10T16:44:14Z jcowan: currently Chicken supports (to some degree) AIX, Android, BSD, cross-Linux-MinGW, Cygwin, Haiku, Hurd, iOS, Linux, Mac OS, MinGW, MinGW/Msys, Solaris 2017-08-10T16:44:16Z jonaslund: (I think i read something about not allowing w^x at all on some mounts despite allocating explicitly) 2017-08-10T16:44:39Z jmd joined #scheme 2017-08-10T16:44:47Z jonaslund: does anyone still use cygwin ? 2017-08-10T16:45:01Z jmd quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-08-10T16:45:16Z jackdaniel: yeah, *nix land people use it as outpost to access windows on VM 2017-08-10T16:45:19Z jackdaniel: I do at least 2017-08-10T16:45:21Z pilne joined #scheme 2017-08-10T16:45:37Z jackdaniel: ECL has similar coverage as Chicken 2017-08-10T16:45:59Z jmd joined #scheme 2017-08-10T16:46:01Z jonaslund: jackdaniel: try bash on windows and be pleasantly surprised (and with the fall update they should have ironed out the worst parts of the mmap functionality so BDB based packages should work) 2017-08-10T16:46:02Z gwatt: jonaslund: /usr should still allow W|X 2017-08-10T16:46:10Z jcowan: jonaslund: I use Cygwin/64 every day 2017-08-10T16:46:27Z gwatt: cygwin was actually pretty nice the last time I used it. 2017-08-10T16:46:54Z jcowan: I will probably switch to UoW when it gains the capability of running Win32 executables (e.g. in pipelines) 2017-08-10T16:47:17Z sz0 quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2017-08-10T16:47:41Z Riastradh quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-08-10T16:47:44Z gwatt: I'm surprised that wasn't included at the start 2017-08-10T16:47:46Z jonaslund: I know it's a popular request on their github 2017-08-10T16:48:04Z gwatt: I feel like that should be pretty simple 2017-08-10T16:48:29Z jonaslund: gwatt: apperantly the entire env is a bit more sandboxed than subsystems have been previously 2017-08-10T16:48:38Z jcowan: Chibi supports Darwin (effectively Mac OS nowadays), FreeBSD, NetBSD, OpenBSD, Dragonfly, Msys, Cygwin, Linux, "generic Unix", and Plan 9. 2017-08-10T16:53:10Z jonaslund: gwatt: https://blogs.msdn.microsoft.com/wsl/2016/04/22/windows-subsystem-for-linux-overview/ , look a bit down at "pico processes". Seems like there was a lot of bindings from the kernel to regular win32 processes and considering the fork/exec model you usually see on *nix's i guess they tried to make a slimmer process model for that 2017-08-10T16:55:55Z gwatt: > Interoperability between Windows applications and files in VolFs is not supported. 2017-08-10T16:56:47Z gwatt: That's probably a decent hurdle to using windows binaries in unix pipeline 2017-08-10T16:58:10Z jmd left #scheme 2017-08-10T17:00:22Z windsing quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-08-10T17:00:51Z windsing joined #scheme 2017-08-10T17:01:51Z jcowan_ joined #scheme 2017-08-10T17:01:53Z pjb joined #scheme 2017-08-10T17:02:01Z jcowan quit (Disconnected by services) 2017-08-10T17:02:05Z jcowan_ is now known as jcowan 2017-08-10T17:02:06Z windsing quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-08-10T17:02:22Z windsing joined #scheme 2017-08-10T17:03:48Z windsing quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-08-10T17:04:17Z windsing joined #scheme 2017-08-10T17:05:00Z jcowan: gwatt: Mucking about in VolFS is totally unsupported. You can read from it from the host Windows with absolutely no guarantees, but you cannot write to it. 2017-08-10T17:06:37Z jonaslund: gwatt: this was the intro article when they introduced it a year ago, seems like there's support there today (although not perfect) . https://github.com/Microsoft/BashOnWindows/issues/2406 2017-08-10T17:07:36Z jonaslund: ah right, yeah you have to run everything from the ntfs partiton 2017-08-10T17:08:35Z windsing quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-08-10T17:11:12Z ecraven: hm.. wasn't there a book or at least a paper on prefix-Dylan? 2017-08-10T17:12:26Z windsing joined #scheme 2017-08-10T17:17:08Z leppie quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-08-10T17:17:23Z basket: ecraven: http://lispm.de/docs/prefix-dylan/book.annotated/contents.html 2017-08-10T17:18:28Z ecraven: basket: wow, thank you! 2017-08-10T17:18:54Z ecraven: now that I see the cover, I think that book's on my bookshelf somewhere 2017-08-10T17:19:48Z ecraven: and indeed, here it is ;) thanks agai 2017-08-10T17:19:49Z ecraven: n 2017-08-10T17:21:13Z leppie joined #scheme 2017-08-10T17:32:23Z jcowan_ joined #scheme 2017-08-10T17:35:29Z jcowan quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-08-10T17:41:58Z windsing quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-08-10T17:42:27Z windsing joined #scheme 2017-08-10T17:47:00Z windsing quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-08-10T17:55:04Z BitPuffin|osx quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-08-10T17:55:48Z jcowan joined #scheme 2017-08-10T17:57:58Z jcowan_ quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-08-10T18:04:56Z windsing joined #scheme 2017-08-10T18:05:17Z Riastradh joined #scheme 2017-08-10T18:15:10Z Steverman joined #scheme 2017-08-10T18:20:28Z Steverman quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-08-10T18:21:00Z alezost joined #scheme 2017-08-10T18:21:53Z cemerick joined #scheme 2017-08-10T18:24:31Z sakalli joined #scheme 2017-08-10T18:26:26Z PinealGlandOptic joined #scheme 2017-08-10T18:37:26Z windsing quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-08-10T18:37:55Z windsing joined #scheme 2017-08-10T18:38:30Z windsing quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-08-10T18:38:46Z windsing joined #scheme 2017-08-10T18:40:47Z cemerick quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-08-10T18:44:13Z windsing quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-08-10T18:44:42Z windsing joined #scheme 2017-08-10T18:44:46Z _rht quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2017-08-10T18:49:05Z windsing quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-08-10T18:56:29Z Steverman joined #scheme 2017-08-10T18:57:56Z Kkiro quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-08-10T19:05:10Z wigust quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-08-10T19:15:44Z cemerick joined #scheme 2017-08-10T19:18:53Z Kkiro joined #scheme 2017-08-10T19:18:54Z Kkiro quit (Changing host) 2017-08-10T19:18:54Z Kkiro joined #scheme 2017-08-10T19:20:14Z mbrock left #scheme 2017-08-10T19:24:20Z ecraven idly ponders a legitimate child of Dylan and EuLisp ... 2017-08-10T19:24:51Z ecraven: basket: is there an epub-version of that book? 2017-08-10T19:25:24Z basket: ecraven: Not that I've seen 2017-08-10T19:29:01Z gravicappa quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2017-08-10T19:35:13Z lritter joined #scheme 2017-08-10T19:49:27Z marvin2 joined #scheme 2017-08-10T19:57:17Z sleffy joined #scheme 2017-08-10T19:57:44Z jmd joined #scheme 2017-08-10T20:04:32Z sz0 joined #scheme 2017-08-10T20:08:50Z ecraven: has any substantial prefix-dylan code survived? 2017-08-10T20:09:14Z Riastradh: Hmm. I have a copy of the Apple Dylan manual from the prefix days lying around somewhere... Dunno about any useful code, though. 2017-08-10T20:09:31Z ecraven: Riastradh: I have that too, also: rainer joswig http://lispm.de/docs/prefix-dylan/book.annotated/contents.html 2017-08-10T20:09:45Z Riastradh: Yep, that's the one. 2017-08-10T20:09:57Z ecraven: found that on my bookshelf after seeing the image ;) 2017-08-10T20:10:42Z lritter quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-08-10T20:14:52Z badkins quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-08-10T20:14:57Z cemerick quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-08-10T20:18:18Z pjb: ecraven: IMO, the easiest way to obtain it, is to convince take a guy named Dylan, and convince a girl to change legally her name for Eulisp (perhaps she's already named Eunice or Elise), and make them marry and mate. Hopefully, in less than one year, you'd get a legitimate child of Dylan and EuLisp. 2017-08-10T20:18:59Z pjb: ecraven: I'm saying that, because otherwise, I'd expect more than one man.year work to make something "legitimate"… 2017-08-10T20:23:12Z badkins joined #scheme 2017-08-10T20:30:52Z emacsoma` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-08-10T20:34:55Z CORDIC: rudybot: Legitimate 2017-08-10T20:34:56Z rudybot: CORDIC: from my perspective they have legitimate sovereignty; I don't care what the UN says 2017-08-10T20:37:38Z Riastradh: ...I hope rudybot doesn't become a Nazi propaganda robot. 2017-08-10T20:38:52Z wasamasa: don't worry, it doesn't learn yet 2017-08-10T20:39:37Z ijp: rudybot: what do you know about nazis 2017-08-10T20:39:43Z rudybot: ijp: Funnily enough, the people who claim nazis were socialist generally don't even know enough about the nazis to know about the night of the long knives. :p 2017-08-10T20:40:28Z jmd quit (Remote host closed the connection) 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(car foo) 'bar) a good thing? should it perish in purging flames? 2017-08-11T05:50:34Z jmd left #scheme 2017-08-11T06:02:46Z sethalves joined #scheme 2017-08-11T06:11:05Z gravicappa joined #scheme 2017-08-11T06:35:20Z renopt: ecraven: I'm not a fan of it, overloads something that really doesn't need it 2017-08-11T06:47:13Z pie__ joined #scheme 2017-08-11T06:51:07Z pie_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-08-11T07:00:07Z Murii joined #scheme 2017-08-11T07:04:16Z beekill joined #scheme 2017-08-11T07:09:43Z lritter_ quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2017-08-11T07:17:34Z Steverman quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-08-11T07:20:47Z lambda-11235 quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.9) 2017-08-11T07:32:57Z C-Keen: I think it is convenient sometimes and saves you a couple of lines of code and it's easy to read 2017-08-11T07:33:31Z ecraven: yea, I'm a bit torn.. 2017-08-11T07:33:45Z ecraven: in some ways, it simplifies things, you don't need to remember extra setters... 2017-08-11T07:38:35Z pie__ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-08-11T08:04:16Z dmiles quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-08-11T08:12:42Z pie__ joined #scheme 2017-08-11T08:17:59Z dmiles joined #scheme 2017-08-11T08:20:01Z ngz joined #scheme 2017-08-11T08:23:52Z pie__ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-08-11T08:30:13Z pie__ joined #scheme 2017-08-11T08:30:34Z Steverman joined #scheme 2017-08-11T08:35:30Z Steverman quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-08-11T08:43:27Z arbv quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2017-08-11T08:43:38Z arbv joined #scheme 2017-08-11T08:44:22Z vicenteH joined #scheme 2017-08-11T08:47:01Z vicenteH` joined #scheme 2017-08-11T08:47:13Z sleffy joined #scheme 2017-08-11T08:49:32Z vicenteH quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-08-11T08:51:27Z vicenteH` is now known as vicenteH 2017-08-11T08:55:08Z sleffy quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-08-11T08:59:10Z vicenteH quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-08-11T08:59:30Z vicenteH joined #scheme 2017-08-11T09:00:13Z pjb quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-08-11T09:09:30Z pie__ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-08-11T09:28:45Z Steverman joined #scheme 2017-08-11T09:32:37Z Murii quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-08-11T09:35:49Z pie__ joined #scheme 2017-08-11T09:43:03Z jcowan quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-08-11T09:50:12Z Murii joined #scheme 2017-08-11T09:57:18Z pjb joined #scheme 2017-08-11T10:06:32Z gravicappa quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-08-11T10:13:34Z pjb quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-08-11T10:23:13Z beekill quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-08-11T10:31:16Z pie__ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-08-11T10:43:58Z sz0 joined #scheme 2017-08-11T10:56:38Z marvin2 joined #scheme 2017-08-11T11:16:13Z Menche quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-08-11T11:24:56Z Steverman quit (*.net *.split) 2017-08-11T11:24:56Z leppie quit (*.net *.split) 2017-08-11T11:24:56Z nikivi quit (*.net *.split) 2017-08-11T11:27:04Z stamourv quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-08-11T11:27:11Z stamourv joined #scheme 2017-08-11T11:27:11Z stamourv quit (Changing host) 2017-08-11T11:27:11Z stamourv joined #scheme 2017-08-11T11:28:12Z stux|work quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-08-11T11:28:54Z ejt: anyone have a macro that forces left to right evaluation of a function application? 2017-08-11T11:31:01Z ecraven: ejt: no, but should be simple, just run it through let* 2017-08-11T11:31:33Z ejt: y, part way through doing that, just stuggling with the whole syntax-case thing 2017-08-11T11:31:41Z ejt misses def-macro 2017-08-11T11:32:02Z ecraven: ejt: which system are you on/ 2017-08-11T11:32:06Z ejt: Chez 2017-08-11T11:32:07Z ecraven: most have something like defmacro ;) 2017-08-11T11:32:17Z cemerick joined #scheme 2017-08-11T11:33:47Z leppie joined #scheme 2017-08-11T11:34:42Z stux|work joined #scheme 2017-08-11T11:36:40Z CORDIC: ecraven: IIRC Olin Shivers, said `setf' is natural and it is surprising how long it took them to discover it. [[http://www.paulgraham.com/thist.html][History of T]] 2017-08-11T11:37:00Z ecraven: CORDIC: thanks for that link 2017-08-11T11:37:15Z ecraven: quite a few Schemes implement SRFI-17, but I've never seen code that actually uses it much 2017-08-11T11:39:34Z snits quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-08-11T11:41:05Z snits joined #scheme 2017-08-11T11:51:06Z nikivi joined #scheme 2017-08-11T11:51:14Z ngz quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-08-11T11:51:25Z Steverman joined #scheme 2017-08-11T12:03:12Z cemerick quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-08-11T12:09:35Z X-Scale joined #scheme 2017-08-11T12:19:08Z Kooda quit (*.net *.split) 2017-08-11T12:19:08Z abbe quit (*.net *.split) 2017-08-11T12:19:08Z Merv quit (*.net *.split) 2017-08-11T12:19:08Z stasku quit (*.net *.split) 2017-08-11T12:19:20Z abbe joined #scheme 2017-08-11T12:19:52Z stasku joined #scheme 2017-08-11T12:20:09Z Merv joined #scheme 2017-08-11T12:20:56Z Kooda joined #scheme 2017-08-11T12:23:29Z ecraven: does anyone know whether there is a digital version of The T Programming Language: A Dialect of Lisp by Stephen Slade, Prentice Hall, Inc. 1987? 2017-08-11T12:25:16Z pie__ joined #scheme 2017-08-11T12:25:36Z C-Keen: libgen.io doesn't have it so probably not :/ 2017-08-11T12:28:07Z ecraven: yea, I checked 2017-08-11T12:35:10Z ecraven: there's no way to define a new SET! syntax that references the old SET! (in standard scheme), right? 2017-08-11T12:37:32Z BitPuffin|osx joined #scheme 2017-08-11T12:55:52Z jcowan joined #scheme 2017-08-11T12:58:02Z Murii quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-08-11T13:00:00Z edgar-rft quit (Quit: edgar-rft) 2017-08-11T13:01:59Z beekill joined #scheme 2017-08-11T13:02:23Z beekill quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-08-11T13:02:44Z beekill joined #scheme 2017-08-11T13:13:44Z cromachina quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-08-11T13:17:25Z niklasl2 is now known as niklasl 2017-08-11T13:22:39Z badkins joined #scheme 2017-08-11T13:39:05Z ecraven: taylan: does https://github.com/TaylanUB/scheme-srfis/blob/master/srfi/17.sld work on any Scheme? 2017-08-11T13:39:09Z ecraven: chibi says invalid use of syntax as value: set! 2017-08-11T14:08:28Z pie__ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-08-11T14:08:47Z pie__ joined #scheme 2017-08-11T14:10:30Z nckx quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-08-11T14:15:33Z badkins quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-08-11T14:18:18Z nckx joined #scheme 2017-08-11T14:23:28Z brendos quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2017-08-11T14:28:54Z jcowan_ joined #scheme 2017-08-11T14:32:01Z jcowan quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-08-11T14:42:36Z marvin3 joined #scheme 2017-08-11T14:45:22Z marvin2 quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2017-08-11T14:45:41Z badkins joined #scheme 2017-08-11T14:45:49Z badkins quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-08-11T14:46:21Z badkins joined #scheme 2017-08-11T14:47:13Z Riastradh joined #scheme 2017-08-11T14:50:41Z badkins quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-08-11T14:56:07Z jcowan_ is now known as jcowan 2017-08-11T14:58:47Z wigust joined #scheme 2017-08-11T15:08:08Z Riastradh quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-08-11T15:16:55Z BitPuffin|osx quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-08-11T15:20:00Z dbmikus joined #scheme 2017-08-11T15:23:24Z gravicappa joined #scheme 2017-08-11T15:33:36Z Riastradh joined #scheme 2017-08-11T15:34:35Z beekill quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-08-11T15:44:14Z vicenteH quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-08-11T15:46:41Z jonaslund quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-08-11T15:50:08Z badkins joined #scheme 2017-08-11T15:53:56Z Steverman quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.9) 2017-08-11T15:54:17Z Steverman joined #scheme 2017-08-11T15:56:57Z badkins quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-08-11T15:57:03Z badkins_ joined #scheme 2017-08-11T15:57:42Z badkins joined #scheme 2017-08-11T16:00:32Z sethalves quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-08-11T16:01:37Z badkins_ quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-08-11T16:14:57Z pie_ joined #scheme 2017-08-11T16:15:09Z pie__ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-08-11T16:19:14Z sethalves joined #scheme 2017-08-11T16:27:09Z jmd joined #scheme 2017-08-11T16:36:39Z Kkiro quit (Quit: ZNC 1.6.1 - http://znc.in) 2017-08-11T16:37:55Z Kkiro joined #scheme 2017-08-11T16:37:56Z Kkiro quit (Changing host) 2017-08-11T16:37:56Z Kkiro joined #scheme 2017-08-11T16:38:08Z marvin3 quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-08-11T16:41:43Z alezost joined #scheme 2017-08-11T16:49:46Z BitPuffin|osx joined #scheme 2017-08-11T16:59:45Z yrdz joined #scheme 2017-08-11T17:03:53Z Steverman quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-08-11T17:06:53Z jcob joined #scheme 2017-08-11T17:26:32Z basket quit (Quit: bye) 2017-08-11T17:26:37Z daviid joined #scheme 2017-08-11T17:27:33Z basket joined #scheme 2017-08-11T17:28:48Z lritter_ joined #scheme 2017-08-11T17:32:19Z arbv quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-08-11T17:36:13Z pilne joined #scheme 2017-08-11T17:36:22Z smazga joined #scheme 2017-08-11T17:38:51Z Kkiro quit (Quit: ZNC 1.6.1 - http://znc.in) 2017-08-11T17:40:45Z taylan: ecraven: it's r7rs 2017-08-11T17:41:39Z Lowl3v3l joined #scheme 2017-08-11T17:42:36Z arbv joined #scheme 2017-08-11T17:43:52Z alezost quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-08-11T17:44:17Z Kkiro joined #scheme 2017-08-11T17:44:18Z Kkiro quit (Changing host) 2017-08-11T17:44:18Z Kkiro joined #scheme 2017-08-11T17:44:38Z gwatt: does r7rs allow bare numbers as library part? 2017-08-11T17:44:41Z gwatt: parts* 2017-08-11T17:45:51Z taylan: gwatt: yes 2017-08-11T17:46:27Z jcowan: gwatt: The WG thought (srfi :1) looked stoopit 2017-08-11T17:47:14Z gwatt: ok 2017-08-11T17:50:03Z edgar-rft joined #scheme 2017-08-11T17:52:06Z taylan: ecraven: apparently define-library isn't defined in Chibi's standard enviornment, even after (import (scheme base)). no idea why... 2017-08-11T17:52:28Z taylan: Chibi does have full r7rs support normally. maybe it doesn't take libraries on the REPL. 2017-08-11T17:54:41Z taylan: ecraven: I could swear I had a PDF defining T 2017-08-11T17:55:14Z blackwolf joined #scheme 2017-08-11T17:56:55Z taylan: ijp: do you have the T paper? 2017-08-11T18:00:46Z taylan: ecraven: T Manual Version 5 from 2003: http://web.archive.org/web/20060925104715/http://mumble.net/~campbell/t/tman.pdf 2017-08-11T18:00:54Z cemerick joined #scheme 2017-08-11T18:09:51Z ijp: taylan: nope 2017-08-11T18:12:27Z alezost joined #scheme 2017-08-11T18:14:35Z ecraven: taylan: yea, I have that, and the paper by rees and adams ;) interesting read 2017-08-11T18:17:28Z taylan: ecraven: oh, you were looking for a specific paper... 2017-08-11T18:23:09Z yosafbridge` quit (Write error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-08-11T18:23:42Z M-krsiehl quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-08-11T18:23:42Z DeeEff quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-08-11T18:23:43Z ArthurAGleckler[ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-08-11T18:23:45Z Kooda quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-08-11T18:25:34Z gko quit (Quit: ZNC - http://znc.in) 2017-08-11T18:29:10Z DeeEff joined #scheme 2017-08-11T18:31:10Z Steverman joined #scheme 2017-08-11T18:31:56Z yosafbridge joined #scheme 2017-08-11T18:32:50Z BW^- joined #scheme 2017-08-11T18:36:20Z lritter_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-08-11T18:39:16Z BW^-: Hi! I want to ask you a question about *locking primitives*, as to clarify my educated opinion about some topic, namely, 2017-08-11T18:39:16Z BW^-: Gambit's read/write-char/u8vector in its normal case, is surrounded by mutex-lock! / mutex-unlock! . 2017-08-11T18:39:16Z BW^-: Those need to be repeated on every single such operation, and they cause such an enormous overhead, that you only get about 200KB/sec throughput. 2017-08-11T18:39:18Z BW^-: What I want to ask you is this: 2017-08-11T18:39:19Z BW^-: I realize that, if instead of using mutex-lock!/unlock!, that code would have some kind of *lasting* lock, such that you make it *ONCE* and then unless another thread *steals it*, it *remains locked* - if such a lock is possible, then that in itself would be enough to remedy the performance problem. 2017-08-11T18:39:19Z BW^-: What I wanted to ask you now is, what are the names of locking primitives that have such an effect (lock it once, stay around until other thread steals it)? 2017-08-11T18:40:26Z gwatt: If another thread can steal a lock, it's not much of a lock, is it? 2017-08-11T18:43:32Z ArthurAGleckler[ joined #scheme 2017-08-11T18:43:32Z M-krsiehl joined #scheme 2017-08-11T18:43:32Z Kooda joined #scheme 2017-08-11T18:49:09Z gko joined #scheme 2017-08-11T18:53:54Z jmd: gwatt: Locks can be either advisory or mandatory. 2017-08-11T18:59:41Z jcowan: The difficulty is to make the original locker aware in an asynchronous way that the lock has been stolen. 2017-08-11T18:59:48Z badkins quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-08-11T19:00:24Z badkins joined #scheme 2017-08-11T19:02:53Z badkins quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-08-11T19:04:53Z Riastradh: jmd: Of what use is an advisory lock if everyone wilfully ignores the advice by design? 2017-08-11T19:05:55Z qu1j0t3: jcowan: wouldn't they get an exception or somesuch 2017-08-11T19:06:43Z jmd: Riastradh: Under those conditions, it would be no use at all. 2017-08-11T19:07:44Z jmd: (like many other protocols) 2017-08-11T19:08:12Z Riastradh: BW^-: A more sensible protocol would be to allow the caller to group many operations into a single transaction that is done with the lock held. 2017-08-11T19:08:37Z Riastradh: BW^-: In C stdio, you can do this with flockfile/{getc,putc}_unlocked/funlockfile. 2017-08-11T19:19:14Z qu1j0t3: fun lock 2017-08-11T19:19:34Z Riastradh: -funsafe-math-optimizations: fun, safe math optimizations! 2017-08-11T19:20:14Z gwatt: yes, that's totally what that means 2017-08-11T19:21:01Z gravicappa quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-08-11T19:23:26Z renopt funrolls 2017-08-11T19:26:08Z BW^-: Riastradh: hm! 2017-08-11T19:26:17Z BW^-: Riastradh: interesting. 2017-08-11T19:26:29Z BW^-: Riastradh: that's a good point actually, that would resolve it. 2017-08-11T19:26:35Z BW^-: Riastradh: do you see any more attractive optios? 2017-08-11T19:26:36Z BW^-: options 2017-08-11T19:33:59Z Riastradh: BW^-: Other than the one I already suggested? 2017-08-11T19:35:42Z badkins joined #scheme 2017-08-11T19:37:31Z BW^-: Riastradh: yeah 2017-08-11T19:38:18Z Riastradh: BW^-: You could just not share ports between threads, and do no locking at all... 2017-08-11T19:38:38Z BW^-: sure. 2017-08-11T19:38:38Z BW^-: mm 2017-08-11T19:38:54Z qu1j0t3: renopt: :) 2017-08-11T19:39:04Z cemerick quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-08-11T19:40:50Z wigust quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-08-11T19:43:12Z sz0 quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2017-08-11T19:43:14Z smazga quit (Quit: leaving) 2017-08-11T19:53:08Z Steverman quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.9) 2017-08-11T19:53:29Z jmd quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-08-11T19:58:53Z badkins quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-08-11T20:01:49Z Kooda quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-08-11T20:01:51Z DeeEff quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-08-11T20:01:52Z ArthurAGleckler[ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-08-11T20:01:58Z M-krsiehl quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-08-11T20:03:53Z DeeEff joined #scheme 2017-08-11T20:04:49Z zacts joined #scheme 2017-08-11T20:05:02Z larsen quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-08-11T20:07:10Z larsen joined #scheme 2017-08-11T20:10:23Z Lowl3v3l quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-08-11T20:13:51Z pjb joined #scheme 2017-08-11T20:18:24Z M-krsiehl joined #scheme 2017-08-11T20:18:24Z Kooda joined #scheme 2017-08-11T20:18:24Z ArthurAGleckler[ joined #scheme 2017-08-11T20:45:38Z vicenteH joined #scheme 2017-08-11T20:45:38Z vicenteH quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-08-11T20:46:02Z vicenteH joined #scheme 2017-08-11T20:47:47Z CORDIC: BW^-: I know nothing about concurrency. It sounds like https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non-blocking_algorithm to me. http://groups.google.com/group/lock-free 2017-08-11T20:51:18Z alezost quit (Quit: I live in GuixSD and Emacs ) 2017-08-11T20:51:35Z jcob quit (Quit: leaving) 2017-08-11T20:56:43Z sleffy joined #scheme 2017-08-11T21:01:15Z blackwolf quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 25.2.1)) 2017-08-11T21:01:21Z sleffy quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-08-11T21:17:46Z badkins joined #scheme 2017-08-11T21:21:01Z Steverman joined #scheme 2017-08-11T21:22:27Z sz0 joined #scheme 2017-08-11T21:34:27Z Steverman quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-08-11T21:42:50Z brendos joined #scheme 2017-08-11T21:48:21Z hjek joined #scheme 2017-08-11T21:58:27Z wigust joined #scheme 2017-08-11T22:13:51Z hjek quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2017-08-11T22:21:43Z dbmikus quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.9) 2017-08-11T22:23:56Z jcowan quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-08-11T22:30:04Z jonaslund joined #scheme 2017-08-11T22:33:45Z marvin2 joined #scheme 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2017-08-12T09:06:25Z jonaslund joined #scheme 2017-08-12T09:13:45Z ecraven: it is elucidating to read all rnrs ;) anything before r2rs looks like some strange lisp, not like Scheme 2017-08-12T09:13:58Z ecraven: (define foo (x y) (+ x y)) for example ;) 2017-08-12T09:15:11Z aeth: r4rs is where Scheme really became Scheme, at least if an implementation implemented the optional hygienic macros. 2017-08-12T09:15:13Z ecraven: the discussions for r2rs must have been very interesting, so much changed there 2017-08-12T09:15:38Z ecraven: aeth: well, between r2rs and r5rs, I don't see that much change except for syntax-rules 2017-08-12T09:15:56Z ecraven: but r1rs and r2rs are almost completely different 2017-08-12T09:16:17Z qu1j0t3 quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-08-12T09:16:25Z aeth: early Scheme was implemented in a pre-Common Lisp Lisp, so it took a lot of shortcuts to be easier to implement. 2017-08-12T09:16:38Z aeth: but even r4rs was easy enough with Pseudoscheme. 2017-08-12T09:17:11Z aeth: The further Scheme goes along, the more of read you have to implement yourself if you were to write Scheme in CL (or a pre-CL Lisp that was a direct ancestor to CL) 2017-08-12T09:19:39Z ecraven: does anyone know ballpark figures on orbit performance? was it as fast as chez or stalin compiled code would be now? or just not as slow as interpreted code? 2017-08-12T09:19:55Z aeth: what era was it from? 2017-08-12T09:22:09Z ecraven: T, 1983, I think 2017-08-12T09:22:16Z aeth: almost certainly slower than 2017-08-12T09:22:22Z ecraven: it's supposed to be one of the best Scheme compilers 2017-08-12T09:22:23Z aeth: the modern compilers 2017-08-12T09:23:23Z aeth: It's not like computer scientists just sat around playing Go for the past 35 years. A serious compiler from 2017 should be faster than one from the 1980s. 2017-08-12T09:23:55Z aeth: It's not just due to advancements, though. They probably didn't have the RAM back then to match today's compilers. 2017-08-12T09:24:06Z akkad: roi 2017-08-12T09:24:19Z akkad: on optimizations back then bought something 2017-08-12T09:24:19Z ecraven: of course, just wondering how good it actually was, given that all the literature says it's so great 2017-08-12T09:24:57Z akkad: we use to optimize Atari Games to fit into 8k. so much operation bumming that it was not portable to the 5200 2017-08-12T09:25:17Z aeth: That was hand optimization, though, wasn't it? 2017-08-12T09:28:50Z aeth: Today's compilers can be quite optimizing. I wouldn't be surprised if many turn something like: "for i from 1 below 11 sum i" to "10 * 11 / 2" and then, of course, to the constant 55, completely eliminating that loop. 2017-08-12T09:33:49Z aeth: i.e. I wouldn't be surprised if some compilers took mathematical identities and used them where obvious, at least on integers. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Summation#Identities 2017-08-12T09:46:07Z qu1j0t3 joined #scheme 2017-08-12T09:54:57Z jmd quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-08-12T10:16:44Z choas_ joined #scheme 2017-08-12T10:18:41Z choas quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-08-12T10:25:46Z jonaslund: IFF proven constant 2017-08-12T10:26:29Z jonaslund: the problem with compiler optimizations is that you can think of many but to actually implement them you need to prove that all preconditions for them to be equivalent are true and that often involved analyzing things in multiple steps 2017-08-12T10:49:58Z elderK quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.9) 2017-08-12T11:40:42Z jonaslund quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-08-12T11:42:12Z BitPuffin|osx joined #scheme 2017-08-12T12:12:01Z jmd joined #scheme 2017-08-12T12:19:45Z badkins joined #scheme 2017-08-12T12:24:34Z badkins quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-08-12T12:27:07Z pjb joined #scheme 2017-08-12T12:34:26Z BitPuffin|osx quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-08-12T12:36:43Z BitPuffin|osx joined #scheme 2017-08-12T12:41:43Z vicenteH quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-08-12T12:42:08Z vicenteH joined #scheme 2017-08-12T13:04:44Z HTTP_____GK1wmSU joined #scheme 2017-08-12T13:07:37Z Kkiro quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-08-12T13:07:37Z HTTP_____GK1wmSU left #scheme 2017-08-12T13:33:20Z Kkiro joined #scheme 2017-08-12T13:33:21Z Kkiro quit (Changing host) 2017-08-12T13:33:21Z Kkiro joined #scheme 2017-08-12T14:07:37Z alezost joined #scheme 2017-08-12T14:53:25Z jonaslund joined #scheme 2017-08-12T15:55:41Z brendos quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-08-12T16:06:57Z marvin2 quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-08-12T16:06:59Z marvin3 joined #scheme 2017-08-12T16:19:46Z pilne joined #scheme 2017-08-12T16:36:49Z Kooda quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-08-12T16:37:28Z M-krsiehl quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-08-12T16:37:35Z ArthurAGleckler[ quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2017-08-12T16:37:53Z DeeEff quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-08-12T16:38:05Z alezost quit (Quit: I live in GuixSD and Emacs ) 2017-08-12T16:54:47Z grublet joined #scheme 2017-08-12T17:17:58Z daviid joined #scheme 2017-08-12T17:23:38Z TCZ joined #scheme 2017-08-12T17:28:40Z TCZ quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-08-12T17:35:32Z fadein quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-08-12T17:36:37Z fadein joined #scheme 2017-08-12T17:40:18Z Lowl3v3l quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-08-12T17:46:38Z Lowl3v3l joined #scheme 2017-08-12T17:48:30Z groovy2shoes quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-08-12T17:53:12Z DeeEff joined #scheme 2017-08-12T18:01:40Z bgardner quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-08-12T18:02:06Z bgardner joined #scheme 2017-08-12T18:02:09Z pygospa quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2017-08-12T18:02:43Z lritter joined #scheme 2017-08-12T18:03:47Z pygospa joined #scheme 2017-08-12T18:04:40Z M-krsiehl joined #scheme 2017-08-12T18:04:40Z ArthurAGleckler[ joined #scheme 2017-08-12T18:04:42Z Kooda joined #scheme 2017-08-12T18:14:25Z jonaslund quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-08-12T18:18:38Z jonaslund joined #scheme 2017-08-12T18:20:56Z BitPuffin|osx quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-08-12T18:35:41Z groovy2shoes joined #scheme 2017-08-12T18:37:48Z swedishfish joined #scheme 2017-08-12T18:39:29Z swedishfish is now known as blt 2017-08-12T18:50:40Z arbv quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-08-12T18:55:23Z jcowan: jonaslund: Which is precisely why Stalin is insanely slow even today, and would be unthinkable on 1980s computers. It takes about 24 hours to compile itself. 2017-08-12T18:55:33Z wasamasa: wat 2017-08-12T18:56:30Z jonaslund: wasamasa: i commented on compiler optimizations earlier today 2017-08-12T18:56:54Z wasamasa: and I complain about clang compile times 2017-08-12T18:57:20Z wasamasa: hopefully stalin doesn't use insane amounts of memory for bootstrapping :P 2017-08-12T18:57:51Z jcowan: It's distributed with C code so you don't have to spend that 24 hours yourself. 2017-08-12T18:57:59Z jcowan: (that is, the C translation of the compiler) 2017-08-12T18:58:03Z jonaslund: jcowan: you work on it? any profiling done to see what takes most of that times? 2017-08-12T18:58:23Z jcowan: Nobody works on it. The Stalin community is the most dysfunctional programming community that exists. 2017-08-12T18:59:04Z jcowan: There isn't even a mailing list. I produced a trivial patch once, but there's nowhere to send it. The author considers it good enough that he doesn't work on it any more, and there's no way to reach the users. 2017-08-12T18:59:35Z wasamasa: what else did stalin's author make, slib? 2017-08-12T18:59:48Z jcowan: No, no. That's Aubrey Jaffer. 2017-08-12T18:59:51Z jonaslund: what licence is it under ? 2017-08-12T19:00:20Z jcowan: Also, there are no comments in the source except a religious (literally) at the beginning of each source file. In Hebrew. And another one at the end of each. 2017-08-12T19:01:27Z jcowan: GPL 2017-08-12T19:02:49Z jcowan: (Currently, Stalin requires the -i switch to compile code, and complains if you omit it. My patch was to force it on so you wouldn't have to specify it.) 2017-08-12T19:04:58Z jcowan: Felix was able to adapt it to be compilable under Chicken, which makes it run even slower than when self-compiled, but makes it much easier to work on. If anybody wanted to. 2017-08-12T19:05:42Z jcowan: I also wrote a REPL for it that runs by saving defines in memory until you type an expression, then writing the defines and the expression to a file, compiling the file, and running it. 2017-08-12T19:05:50Z wasamasa: :D 2017-08-12T19:05:51Z jcowan: s/runs/works 2017-08-12T19:05:58Z wasamasa: what motivated you to do this? 2017-08-12T19:06:10Z wasamasa: or rather, what kind of code is that pain possibly worth it? 2017-08-12T19:06:21Z jcowan: I was going to use it for my test-against-many-Schemes effort during the runup to R7RS 2017-08-12T19:07:05Z jcowan: So only trivial stuff, see the pages linked from http://trac.sacrideo.us/wg/wiki/ImplementationContrasts 2017-08-12T19:07:13Z jcowan: but in the end I didn't include Stalin in the suite 2017-08-12T19:07:25Z wasamasa: heh, alright 2017-08-12T19:07:46Z jcowan: Actual Stalin users use it for code that would need to be written in Fortran or C++ 2017-08-12T19:10:37Z jcowan: but they'd rather use R4RS, and who can blame them? 2017-08-12T19:10:46Z jcowan: It might be interesting to front-end Stalin with Rapid 2017-08-12T19:11:03Z wasamasa: rapid? 2017-08-12T19:11:31Z jcowan: A translator from full R7RS-small to any reasonable Scheme, doing macroexpansion and such 2017-08-12T19:11:41Z wasamasa: interesting 2017-08-12T19:12:41Z jcowan: it's a project of Marc Nieper-Wißkirchen. 2017-08-12T19:13:33Z jcowan: Still, with Chez typically faster, Stalin's only remaining advantage is compiling-to-C and therefore creating standalone executables. 2017-08-12T19:13:44Z jcowan: neither is exactly library-rich 2017-08-12T19:13:46Z D33P-B00K joined #scheme 2017-08-12T19:14:19Z sz0 quit 2017-08-12T19:14:59Z wasamasa: at least there's people aspiring to improve chez library situation 2017-08-12T19:15:27Z D33P-B00K left #scheme 2017-08-12T19:17:18Z jcowan: True 2017-08-12T19:26:50Z aeth: I thought Stalin took 5 years to compile? 2017-08-12T19:32:15Z ijp: there is a secret time travel switch so that you can go back in time and start your compile then 2017-08-12T20:00:02Z Kkiro quit (Quit: ZNC 1.6.1 - http://znc.in) 2017-08-12T20:00:15Z teurastaja joined #scheme 2017-08-12T20:01:20Z Kkiro joined #scheme 2017-08-12T20:01:21Z Kkiro quit (Changing host) 2017-08-12T20:01:21Z Kkiro joined #scheme 2017-08-12T20:11:05Z alezost joined #scheme 2017-08-12T20:32:05Z jmd quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-08-12T20:32:09Z badkins joined #scheme 2017-08-12T20:33:27Z PinealGlandOptic quit (Quit: leaving) 2017-08-12T20:35:27Z jmd joined #scheme 2017-08-12T20:36:46Z jmd quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-08-12T21:04:02Z jcowan: ijp: But then it would be compiling on a 5-year-old system or worse 2017-08-12T21:04:21Z jcowan: Actually I haven't tried to compile it for a long time, maybe it is some faster now. 2017-08-12T21:13:56Z alezost quit (Quit: I live in GuixSD and Emacs ) 2017-08-12T21:38:41Z teurastaja quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-08-12T22:00:43Z 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In Scheme implementations with wills/finalizers, what kind of behaviour does dynamic-wind guarantee? 2017-08-17T19:11:22Z chrisa: (But I realize that deserves more of a general question actually, "what kind of behaviour does scoping guarantee".. 2017-08-17T19:11:58Z ijp: if it is possible to re-enter, then a finaliser should not be run on escape 2017-08-17T19:12:00Z chrisa: Given that optimizing compilers should and do let go of a reference as soon as it's not used any more in a scope, and given that the compilers don't know what kind of object will be there, 2017-08-17T19:12:34Z chrisa: they can't actually ensure that the finalizers won't be run before the end of a scope. 2017-08-17T19:14:15Z chrisa: That makes multiple objects (e.g. holding FFI objects) referring to each other problematic. Maybe adding wrappers that refer to both objects can make that work. Hmm.) 2017-08-17T19:14:27Z chrisa: I wonder how that works in e.g. Java. 2017-08-17T19:14:55Z lockywolf quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-08-17T19:15:22Z joast joined #scheme 2017-08-17T19:16:12Z chrisa: ijp, yes, I think my question is really not about dynamic-wind at all. 2017-08-17T19:16:29Z chrisa: My case is where the 'body' of a dymanic wind allocates a foreign object, then another foreign object that makes use of the first, then a loop doing work with only the second object (i.e. potentially letting go of the first). Will have to change the code. 2017-08-17T19:56:27Z lucasem joined #scheme 2017-08-17T20:15:07Z salmon1 joined #scheme 2017-08-17T20:22:23Z alezost quit (Quit: I live in GuixSD and Emacs ) 2017-08-17T20:26:45Z salmon1 quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-08-17T20:28:33Z salmon1 joined #scheme 2017-08-17T20:29:06Z salmon1 left #scheme 2017-08-17T20:29:31Z salmon1 joined #scheme 2017-08-17T20:29:54Z salmon1 quit (Client Quit) 2017-08-17T20:30:13Z salmon1 joined #scheme 2017-08-17T20:33:03Z salmon1 quit (Client Quit) 2017-08-17T20:33:24Z salmon1 joined #scheme 2017-08-17T20:33:55Z salmon1 quit (Client Quit) 2017-08-17T20:34:21Z salmon1 joined #scheme 2017-08-17T21:00:57Z salmon11 joined #scheme 2017-08-17T21:02:15Z salmon1 quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-08-17T21:02:24Z salmon11 is now known as salmon1 2017-08-17T21:03:16Z salmon1 left #scheme 2017-08-17T21:06:52Z wigust quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-08-17T21:08:25Z salmon1 joined #scheme 2017-08-17T21:08:33Z salmon1 left #scheme 2017-08-17T21:09:37Z salmon1 joined #scheme 2017-08-17T21:10:08Z salmon1 left #scheme 2017-08-17T21:16:37Z pygospa joined #scheme 2017-08-17T21:20:24Z salmon1 joined #scheme 2017-08-17T21:21:50Z salmon1: Does anyone have documentation on how to configure the Edwin text editor? 2017-08-17T21:22:14Z salmon1: Even sample .edwin files would be useful. 2017-08-17T21:24:57Z Riastradh: salmon1: This was my .edwin as of a decade ago: https://mumble.net/~campbell/scheme/edwin-init.scm 2017-08-17T21:30:30Z pierpa joined #scheme 2017-08-17T21:31:05Z salmon1: Thanks. I was wondering if there exists a customization manual of some sort? 2017-08-17T21:31:50Z cemerick quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-08-17T21:35:58Z rRru joined #scheme 2017-08-17T21:36:51Z Riastradh: salmon1: Not really. 2017-08-17T21:37:31Z salmon1: I guess I'll have to attempt to read the source. 2017-08-17T21:57:48Z wigust joined #scheme 2017-08-17T22:05:10Z wigust quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-08-17T22:08:43Z badkins quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-08-17T22:08:51Z leppie quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-08-17T22:10:22Z tautologico joined #scheme 2017-08-17T22:11:21Z Riastradh quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-08-17T22:24:00Z ArneBab_ joined #scheme 2017-08-17T22:26:33Z ArneBab quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-08-17T22:27:21Z vicenteH quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-08-17T22:27:27Z leppie joined #scheme 2017-08-17T22:28:23Z turbofail joined #scheme 2017-08-17T22:32:39Z kjak joined #scheme 2017-08-17T22:50:50Z daviid quit (Ping 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Connection reset by peer) 2017-08-18T18:14:11Z sz0 quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2017-08-18T18:17:07Z vicenteH joined #scheme 2017-08-18T18:42:38Z LeoNerd: Unpopular opinion: identifiers shouldn't be called "kebab case" unless they both start and end in a hyphen 2017-08-18T18:42:40Z LeoNerd: -kebab-case- 2017-08-18T18:43:27Z ijp: does anyone seriously refer to it as kebab case? 2017-08-18T18:44:10Z LeoNerd: I don't think it's common, but I've seen the term thrown around 2017-08-18T18:44:26Z peterhil joined #scheme 2017-08-18T18:44:35Z ijp: so then what makes you think your opinion is going to be unpopular 2017-08-18T18:45:06Z LeoNerd: Eh.. it's mostly an attempt on the twitter-ish meme of "#UnpopularOpinion" 2017-08-18T18:45:13Z ijp: I see 2017-08-18T18:46:46Z sethalves quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2017-08-18T18:47:21Z badkins quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-08-18T18:48:58Z weinholt: #-unpopular-opinion- 2017-08-18T18:49:05Z edgar-rft: I know there's a pope, but I never heard of an unpope 2017-08-18T18:50:02Z arbv quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-08-18T18:50:15Z arbv joined #scheme 2017-08-18T19:16:59Z aeth: edgar-rft: If the Law of the Excluded Middle is one of your axioms, we are all not-popes. (Unless a pope is here.) 2017-08-18T19:17:36Z aeth: (Except jcowan, who is literally the pope of r7rs Scheme, iirc.) 2017-08-18T19:20:18Z LeoNerd wonders if any of the popes have been nicknamed The Scheming Pope 2017-08-18T19:22:14Z wigust joined #scheme 2017-08-18T19:25:12Z edgar-rft: aeth: I just learned that I was once again completely wrong (as usual). According to the Merriam-Webster online dictionary Seppl Ratzinger aka "Benedict XVI" is unpoped now 2017-08-18T19:25:57Z aeth: LeoNerd: probably, check all of the Renaissance ones just to be sure 2017-08-18T19:26:52Z LeoNerd thinks about adding "$N Popes a-scheming" to the Twelve Days of Christmas 2017-08-18T19:26:54Z aeth: edgar-rft: If popes are stored on a stack you unpope a pope by saying (pop popes) 2017-08-18T19:27:48Z edgar-rft: LeoNerd, here's the POPE of Major Schemes if that's pope enough 2017-08-18T19:28:52Z dmiles quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-08-18T19:30:14Z edgar-rft: aeth: if popes were are made of shit we could say (poop popes) 2017-08-18T19:30:28Z peterhil quit (Quit: Must not waste too much time here...) 2017-08-18T19:30:38Z aeth: touché 2017-08-18T19:30:45Z akkad: un petite enfant 2017-08-18T19:32:56Z aeth: How many popes would it take to write a Scheme implementation? 2017-08-18T19:33:16Z whoman: XVI 2017-08-18T19:34:16Z wigust quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-08-18T19:34:17Z akkad: just someone with a last name of Madoff 2017-08-18T19:34:18Z dmiles joined #scheme 2017-08-18T19:34:20Z X-Scale left #scheme 2017-08-18T19:35:51Z edgar-rft: Not a pope, but did you know that Michelangelo painted a Scheme onto the ceiling of the Sistine Chapel? see 2017-08-18T19:40:32Z aeth: Right, the popes have been collecting schemes in the Vatican for centuries. 2017-08-18T19:40:44Z aeth: So I guess no pope is required to write one, they already have them. 2017-08-18T19:42:06Z whoman: well, why would we write when we probably pursued painting pairs of parens previously 2017-08-18T19:45:19Z jcowan_ joined #scheme 2017-08-18T19:45:47Z Menche joined #scheme 2017-08-18T19:46:08Z aeth: What if the Vatican uses a Scheme with unmatched parentheses? 2017-08-18T19:47:37Z jcowan quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-08-18T19:50:32Z whoman: cest possible?? 2017-08-18T19:53:23Z n_blownapart joined #scheme 2017-08-18T19:57:41Z n_blownapart quit (Client Quit) 2017-08-18T19:57:41Z chrisa quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-08-18T19:58:27Z jao quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-08-18T19:59:29Z wigust joined #scheme 2017-08-18T20:03:12Z edgar-rft: aeth, choose one of these solutions: 2017-08-18T20:06:18Z edgar-rft: Resisting Satan's Schemes: 2017-08-18T20:48:49Z sleffy joined #scheme 2017-08-18T20:53:13Z sleffy quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-08-18T20:55:01Z sleffy joined #scheme 2017-08-18T20:56:30Z alezost quit (Quit: I live in GuixSD and Emacs ) 2017-08-18T20:56:56Z jcowan_: I am not the pope, I am the janitor. Of course, the present Pope may well see his role similarly. 2017-08-18T20:58:27Z jcowan_: And I am not being reported in THE GREATER METROPOLITAN YORBA LINDA HERALD-NEWS-SUN-TRIBUNE-JOURNAL-DISPATCH-POST AND SAN FRANCISCO DISCORDIAN SOCIETY CABAL BULLETIN AND INTERGALACTIC REPORT & POPE POOP. 2017-08-18T20:58:28Z grublet joined #scheme 2017-08-18T20:58:38Z Riastradh: Calls to mind the Onion headline on November 5th, 2008: `Black Man Given Nation's Worst Job' 2017-08-18T20:58:41Z jcowan_: 'poop' here in the sense of 'information' 2017-08-18T20:58:56Z jcowan_: https://www.principiadiscordia.com/book/6.php 2017-08-18T21:00:09Z jcowan_: In addition to popes, there are antipopes. Sedevacantists hold that the last few popes (since Vatican II, 1962-65) have been antipopes, and that the papal seat is vacant. 2017-08-18T21:04:50Z aeth: edgar-rft: Satan's Scheme sounds like a great name for a Scheme implementation that I would never trust running on my computer. 2017-08-18T21:05:16Z aeth: jcowan_: You've pretty much confirmed your role as the current Pope of Scheme by denying it. 2017-08-18T21:06:21Z jcowan_: It's true that I am having to write way more SRFIs than I would like to, although Marc has stepped up with quite a few. 2017-08-18T21:06:24Z Riastradh: Would I be pope of Scheme if I denied it? 2017-08-18T21:06:32Z aeth: Riastradh: you'd be an antipope 2017-08-18T21:06:53Z Riastradh: Crap. I mean, I always wanted to grow up to be antipope, but I'm pretty busy right now to take on any new responsibilities. 2017-08-18T21:06:54Z aeth: only his holiness jcowan_ is the current pope. 2017-08-18T21:07:16Z aeth: jcowan_: Are the Racket devs heretics? 2017-08-18T21:08:28Z Menche_ joined #scheme 2017-08-18T21:10:16Z Menche quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-08-18T21:10:57Z rRru joined #scheme 2017-08-18T21:11:48Z badkins joined #scheme 2017-08-18T21:15:49Z Menche_ is now known as Menche 2017-08-18T21:18:00Z cemerick quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-08-18T21:30:54Z amz3 joined #scheme 2017-08-18T21:31:07Z amz3: did anyone try forward.scm (https://amirouche.github.io/forward.scm/) ? 2017-08-18T21:31:26Z amz3: how do you think I can improve something in forward.scm to make it easier and/or more suitable for you? 2017-08-18T21:31:31Z amz3: TIA 2017-08-18T21:35:47Z jonaslund joined #scheme 2017-08-18T21:35:52Z badkins quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-08-18T21:43:54Z 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fair conjunction? 2017-08-19T12:52:26Z amz3: what is fair conjunction? 2017-08-19T13:05:54Z jmd quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-08-19T13:06:56Z zaoqi quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-08-19T13:18:04Z jmd joined #scheme 2017-08-19T13:37:59Z jonaslund joined #scheme 2017-08-19T13:43:15Z pilne joined #scheme 2017-08-19T13:57:07Z qu1j0t3: they are gone -- but I thought fair conjunction was part of the design of µ-kanren and described in the paper. 2017-08-19T13:57:18Z qu1j0t3: unless i'm misunderstanding what they mean of course... 2017-08-19T13:57:35Z BitPuffin|osx quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-08-19T14:28:23Z PinealGlandOptic quit (Quit: leaving) 2017-08-19T14:32:32Z felipedvorak quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-08-19T14:37:21Z Wojciech_K joined #scheme 2017-08-19T14:44:45Z felipedvorak joined #scheme 2017-08-19T14:52:58Z stux16777216Away joined #scheme 2017-08-19T14:54:47Z stux|work quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-08-19T15:00:33Z jmd quit (Remote 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I'm getting into scheme and I'm picking up The Little Schemer after I stopped halfway through a year ago. Then I used racket, but I would like a smaller scheme. Guile and chicken seem to be the most popular, but I'd like another scheme. Can someone recommend me a scheme? It should have a documentation and should work for hobby projects. I thougt, as a starter project, I'd make some webscraper thingy that sends interesting 2017-08-19T16:06:49Z fdsa1234: links through email. 2017-08-19T16:34:07Z aeth: If you want a small Scheme that follows the latest standard (r7rs-small) closely, there's chibi-scheme 2017-08-19T16:34:26Z aeth: Another small Scheme is MIT/GNU Scheme. 2017-08-19T16:35:25Z aeth: Chez is very fast. Kawa runs on the JVM and Android. This is a large list: http://community.schemewiki.org/?category-implementations 2017-08-19T16:35:43Z aeth: Racket, Guile, and Chicken in that order seem to be the popular ones. 2017-08-19T16:36:40Z aeth: You could try using r7rs within Racket and get a small Scheme that way. A quick search suggests that this is it: https://github.com/lexi-lambda/racket-r7rs 2017-08-19T16:39:54Z Menche quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-08-19T16:46:01Z narendraj9 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-08-19T16:47:29Z narendraj9 joined #scheme 2017-08-19T16:48:02Z fdsa1234: Thanks for the recommendations. I'm going with chibi-scheme, it looks appealing. Have a nice day 2017-08-19T16:48:07Z fdsa1234 quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-08-19T16:49:49Z narendraj9 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-08-19T16:51:26Z brendyn quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-08-19T17:06:23Z terpri joined #scheme 2017-08-19T17:30:05Z cemerick joined #scheme 2017-08-19T17:35:25Z alezost joined #scheme 2017-08-19T17:35:35Z marvin2 joined #scheme 2017-08-19T17:54:41Z badkins joined #scheme 2017-08-19T18:04:57Z nomicflux joined #scheme 2017-08-19T18:26:23Z cemerick quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-08-19T18:30:51Z rRru joined #scheme 2017-08-19T18:33:58Z cemerick joined #scheme 2017-08-19T18:38:25Z jmd joined #scheme 2017-08-19T18:55:25Z groovy2shoes quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2017-08-19T19:01:38Z amz3 quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-08-19T19:04:29Z daviid joined #scheme 2017-08-19T19:07:26Z cemerick quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-08-19T19:18:29Z narendraj9 joined #scheme 2017-08-19T19:21:05Z jmd quit (Read error: No route to host) 2017-08-19T19:21:20Z jmd joined #scheme 2017-08-19T19:26:26Z alezost quit (Quit: I live in GuixSD and Emacs ) 2017-08-19T19:28:00Z amz3 joined #scheme 2017-08-19T19:45:58Z amz3: is it possible to parse sexp using parser combinators? 2017-08-19T19:47:21Z qu1j0t3: amz3: Absolutely yes. 2017-08-19T19:48:18Z pjb: amz3: sexp syntax is very simple. 2017-08-19T19:48:19Z groovy2shoes joined #scheme 2017-08-19T19:49:18Z amz3: ok i should try 2017-08-19T19:49:19Z pjb: sexp ::= '(' { } ')' | . 2017-08-19T19:49:35Z pjb: You really only need half a dozen assembly instructions to parse it. 2017-08-19T19:49:53Z narendraj9 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-08-19T19:50:05Z amz3: I mean to say, is it possible to parse scheme using parser combinators 2017-08-19T19:50:20Z amz3: because I writing an editor for scheme 2017-08-19T19:50:42Z amz3: I'd like to do syntax highlighting correctly and also automatic indentation 2017-08-19T19:50:57Z amz3: it doesn't seem like possible to do without actually parsing the code 2017-08-19T19:51:17Z C-Keen: like with all other languages really 2017-08-19T19:51:20Z narendraj9 joined #scheme 2017-08-19T19:51:32Z amz3: hmm.. 2017-08-19T19:52:00Z amz3: C-Keen: what do you mean? I don't understand 2017-08-19T19:53:28Z C-Keen: most editors already do syntax highlighting based on an AST. Even emacs prepares to jump on that band waggon 2017-08-19T19:57:02Z amz3: good to know 2017-08-19T19:59:02Z C-Keen: the thing is you will probably get away just fine with even plain regexps to find keywords procedure names etc. But there will always be corner cases that won't work and you cannot help your user browsing code (jump to definition, refactoring etc) 2017-08-19T19:59:54Z Kkiro quit (Quit: ZNC 1.6.1 - http://znc.in) 2017-08-19T19:59:55Z jmd quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-08-19T20:01:16Z Kkiro joined #scheme 2017-08-19T20:01:16Z Kkiro quit (Changing host) 2017-08-19T20:01:16Z Kkiro joined #scheme 2017-08-19T20:04:39Z amz3: I am not using regexps, I am not sure how I could use regexps without a regex engine that takes finger trees strings as input 2017-08-19T20:05:07Z amz3: I am using a finger tree of finger tree as a datastructure to store files 2017-08-19T20:05:15Z nomicflux quit (Quit: nomicflux) 2017-08-19T20:06:08Z narendra` joined #scheme 2017-08-19T20:06:48Z narendraj9 quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-08-19T20:06:51Z amz3: finger trees are nice to quickly retrieve the part of the file that must be displayed 2017-08-19T20:08:47Z amz3: it seems to me it's a small optimisation compared to the complexity of parsing the whole file to do highlighting 2017-08-19T20:09:21Z amz3: maybe not that small after all, I should benchmark that. 2017-08-19T20:09:48Z amz3: I did not find a better approach to implement rainbow delimiters but going through the whole file 2017-08-19T20:12:25Z amz3: I mean to say, going through the whole file until you hit the last visible line 2017-08-19T20:36:22Z narendra` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-08-19T20:37:09Z sleffy joined #scheme 2017-08-19T20:48:38Z amz3: (prolly the answer is cursors or zippers or something like that but still) 2017-08-19T20:48:56Z rRru quit (Quit: rRru) 2017-08-19T20:49:26Z amz3: nvm 2017-08-19T21:34:37Z pierpa joined #scheme 2017-08-19T21:41:12Z ArneBab_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-08-19T21:45:17Z BitPuffin|osx joined #scheme 2017-08-19T21:45:22Z ArneBab joined #scheme 2017-08-19T21:54:58Z jonaslund quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-08-19T22:17:48Z jonaslund joined #scheme 2017-08-19T22:38:37Z jao joined #scheme 2017-08-19T22:47:32Z Menche joined #scheme 2017-08-19T22:55:40Z X-Scale quit (Quit: Want to be different? Try HydraIRC -> http://www.hydrairc.com <-) 2017-08-19T22:55:53Z pie__ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-08-19T22:56:06Z pie_ joined #scheme 2017-08-19T22:56:34Z Menche quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-08-19T22:56:44Z Menche joined #scheme 2017-08-19T23:00:31Z pie_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-08-19T23:20:09Z lambda-11235 joined #scheme 2017-08-19T23:46:48Z daviid quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-08-19T23:53:14Z badkins quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-08-19T23:57:02Z badkins joined #scheme 2017-08-20T00:01:04Z Fare joined #scheme 2017-08-20T00:45:47Z badkins quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-08-20T00:54:38Z daviid joined #scheme 2017-08-20T00:55:54Z badkins joined #scheme 2017-08-20T01:06:00Z sleffy quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-08-20T01:10:30Z beekill joined #scheme 2017-08-20T01:18:25Z brendyn joined #scheme 2017-08-20T01:43:26Z marvin2 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-08-20T01:48:00Z jmd joined #scheme 2017-08-20T02:05:35Z Menche quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-08-20T02:05:46Z Menche joined #scheme 2017-08-20T02:07:51Z badkins quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-08-20T02:10:30Z badkins joined #scheme 2017-08-20T02:14:47Z badkins quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-08-20T02:15:03Z pierpa quit (Quit: Page closed) 2017-08-20T02:21:37Z Fare happily uses foo<-bar instead of bar->foo and is very happy with the result. 2017-08-20T02:27:11Z Fare quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-08-20T02:27:53Z Menche quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-08-20T02:29:13Z Fare joined #scheme 2017-08-20T02:29:27Z Menche joined #scheme 2017-08-20T02:32:03Z pjb: foo-from-bar does it too. 2017-08-20T02:37:42Z jao quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-08-20T02:57:44Z ArneBab_ joined #scheme 2017-08-20T03:01:52Z ArneBab quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-08-20T03:02:29Z _rht joined #scheme 2017-08-20T03:04:15Z aeth: foo<-bar :o 2017-08-20T03:05:22Z aeth: although to be fair I tend to write (= 42 (foo-bar-baz 'quux x y z)) so sometimes reversing things seems more natural 2017-08-20T03:06:38Z aeth: I don't want to go down 5 lines to see what I'm testing for equality if it's a complicated conditional 2017-08-20T03:28:09Z Fare: if I had postfix operators, I'd call them foo->bar 2017-08-20T03:28:26Z Fare: prefix operators imply reading right to left. 2017-08-20T03:36:57Z aeth: I disagree. 2017-08-20T03:37:20Z aeth: What prefix means for me is that the things that vary the most should come at the end, while the more constant things should be at the beginning. 2017-08-20T03:37:31Z aeth: The effect, I guess, is similar. 2017-08-20T03:48:00Z aeth: Phrased slightly better, I think the most general things should go first and the most specific last, i.e. partial application should be done left to right where used. 2017-08-20T03:53:52Z amz3` joined #scheme 2017-08-20T03:56:31Z amz3 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-08-20T04:04:33Z jmd quit (Remote host closed the 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2017-08-20T13:51:50Z handlex quit (Client Quit) 2017-08-20T14:01:41Z Fare joined #scheme 2017-08-20T14:01:46Z lritter_ joined #scheme 2017-08-20T14:03:27Z lritter quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-08-20T14:07:19Z cemerick quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-08-20T14:07:19Z BitPuffin|osx quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-08-20T14:33:12Z felipedvorak quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2017-08-20T14:34:31Z Khisanth quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-08-20T14:39:09Z zaoqi joined #scheme 2017-08-20T14:44:39Z amz3` quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-08-20T14:45:07Z felipedvorak joined #scheme 2017-08-20T14:46:20Z zaoqi: How can I implement microKanren with fair conjunction? 2017-08-20T14:47:28Z Khisanth joined #scheme 2017-08-20T14:57:00Z qu1j0t3: zaoqi: isn't that already how the µ-kanren paper describes it? (if not, can you explain what you mean by 'fair conjunction'?) 2017-08-20T14:57:33Z zaoqi: microKanren with fair conjunction 2017-08-20T14:57:41Z qu1j0t3: yes, please elucidate. 2017-08-20T14:58:18Z zaoqi: fair conj 2017-08-20T14:58:21Z qu1j0t3: god 2017-08-20T14:59:47Z zaoqi: (conj (+o x y) (== z 0)) => (conj (== z 0) (+o x y)) 2017-08-20T15:00:47Z qu1j0t3: zaoqi: In what way does µ-kanren as described in the paper(s) not achieve this? 2017-08-20T15:01:17Z amz3` joined #scheme 2017-08-20T15:01:20Z qu1j0t3: 'We want microKanren to guarantee a /complete/ search: each and every answer should occur at a finite position in the stream.' -- this isn't sufficient? 2017-08-20T15:02:12Z zaoqi: sometimes it halt 2017-08-20T15:04:00Z zaoqi: (conj (+o x y z) (== z 0)) => (conj (== z 0) (+o x y z)) 2017-08-20T15:04:03Z qu1j0t3: zaoqi: Bring it up in #prolog would be my suggestion 2017-08-20T15:04:27Z qu1j0t3: zaoqi: this is your own implementation? 2017-08-20T15:05:15Z zaoqi: sometimes it halt: (fresh (x y z) (+o x y z) (== x 1) (== y 1) (== z 3)) 2017-08-20T15:06:26Z zaoqi: My implementation: https://github.com/zaoqi/zKanren,this is µ-kanren. 2017-08-20T15:06:28Z qu1j0t3: zaoqi: There is also #minikanren on Freenode 2017-08-20T15:10:50Z Riastradh joined #scheme 2017-08-20T15:18:46Z zaoqi quit (Quit: zaoqi) 2017-08-20T15:27:19Z Menche joined #scheme 2017-08-20T15:35:17Z Menche quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-08-20T15:35:23Z Menche_ joined #scheme 2017-08-20T15:35:30Z Menche_ is now known as Menche 2017-08-20T15:52:07Z ddp joined #scheme 2017-08-20T15:55:49Z Menche quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-08-20T16:27:28Z BitPuffin|osx joined #scheme 2017-08-20T16:34:03Z sz0 joined #scheme 2017-08-20T16:42:18Z amz3` quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-08-20T16:43:33Z brendyn quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-08-20T16:45:03Z pilne joined #scheme 2017-08-20T16:48:53Z Fare quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-08-20T16:51:19Z whoman: what is kanren for anyway ? prolog search database stuff, like what newlisp has ? 2017-08-20T16:54:42Z qu1j0t3: it's close to prolog, yes, with a few conceptual differences 2017-08-20T16:55:25Z edgar-rft: for example, it uses a different name 2017-08-20T16:55:52Z nomicflux joined #scheme 2017-08-20T16:58:19Z jmd quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-08-20T17:02:28Z badkins joined #scheme 2017-08-20T17:02:33Z jmd joined #scheme 2017-08-20T17:09:42Z amz3` joined #scheme 2017-08-20T17:15:54Z jmd quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-08-20T17:17:54Z ddp: tee, hee, hee 2017-08-20T17:18:30Z nomicflux quit (Quit: nomicflux) 2017-08-20T17:20:25Z jmd joined #scheme 2017-08-20T17:33:15Z badkins quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-08-20T17:37:01Z jonaslund quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-08-20T17:43:15Z jonaslund joined #scheme 2017-08-20T17:46:05Z nomicflux joined #scheme 2017-08-20T17:49:55Z Menche joined #scheme 2017-08-20T17:56:49Z nomicflux quit (Quit: nomicflux) 2017-08-20T18:01:09Z nomicflux joined #scheme 2017-08-20T18:02:26Z dmiles: other differnces is kanren colects all results at once 2017-08-20T18:03:18Z dmiles: in prolog you can for instnace stop on the 3rd answer (if the 2nd answer fit the criteria of a rule that was needed to be true) 2017-08-20T18:03:38Z dmiles: i mean in this case prolog only needs 2 answers 2017-08-20T18:04:21Z dmiles: it might be a problem in cases kanren *can* colelct 9 million answers 2017-08-20T18:07:24Z nomicflux quit (Quit: nomicflux) 2017-08-20T18:07:46Z edgar-rft: So if I ask kanren the ultimate quesion of life, the universe, and everything, kanren will first collect several multi-bazillions of answers and then start to sieve out 42? 2017-08-20T18:08:06Z edgar-rft: *ultimate question 2017-08-20T18:20:28Z nomicflux joined #scheme 2017-08-20T18:23:31Z badkins joined #scheme 2017-08-20T18:28:17Z daviid joined #scheme 2017-08-20T18:32:13Z cemerick joined #scheme 2017-08-20T18:39:11Z badkins quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-08-20T18:46:42Z badkins joined #scheme 2017-08-20T18:49:06Z cemerick quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-08-20T18:55:20Z badkins quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-08-20T18:57:21Z badkins joined #scheme 2017-08-20T19:19:35Z qu1j0t3: dmiles: Well, yes and no, µ-kanren produces a stream so you can take as many as you want. 2017-08-20T19:21:27Z marvin2 joined #scheme 2017-08-20T19:28:51Z dmiles: ahah.. so we can contolk such iteration? 2017-08-20T19:29:26Z dmiles: control* 2017-08-20T19:29:55Z badkins quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-08-20T19:32:59Z jmd quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-08-20T19:35:48Z qu1j0t3: as i understand it, yes, but it's a while since i was playing with it. i did an implementation then extended it into ~ minikanren 2017-08-20T19:36:43Z qu1j0t3: (this is why i wonder if zaoqi is actually dealing with a bug in their implementation) 2017-08-20T19:44:47Z badkins joined #scheme 2017-08-20T19:49:14Z badkins quit (Ping timeout: 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is now known as larsen` 2017-08-21T07:40:53Z Riviera quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-08-21T07:41:57Z ssake joined #scheme 2017-08-21T07:45:23Z n_blownapart joined #scheme 2017-08-21T07:50:46Z n_blownapart quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-08-21T08:00:15Z n_blownapart joined #scheme 2017-08-21T08:04:30Z _0x5eb_ quit (Quit: Goodbye!) 2017-08-21T08:04:41Z n_blownapart quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-08-21T08:06:41Z kjeldahl_ quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.2) 2017-08-21T08:07:02Z kjeldahl joined #scheme 2017-08-21T08:07:24Z n_blownapart joined #scheme 2017-08-21T08:07:43Z jonaslund joined #scheme 2017-08-21T08:13:20Z n_blownapart quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2017-08-21T08:14:46Z ByronJohnson quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-08-21T08:19:10Z Steverman joined #scheme 2017-08-21T08:21:43Z ByronJohnson joined #scheme 2017-08-21T08:22:19Z lritter quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-08-21T08:34:48Z skeuomorf joined #scheme 2017-08-21T08:38:11Z _0x5eb_ joined 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2017-08-21T10:11:46Z n_blownapart quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-08-21T10:24:31Z BW^- joined #scheme 2017-08-21T10:25:26Z BW^-: (Computer/programming) implementations of dynamic connected component algorithms for dynamic undirected graphs, seem to be extremely few in number. 2017-08-21T10:25:35Z BW^-: Do you know of any particular implementations? 2017-08-21T10:26:10Z n_blownapart joined #scheme 2017-08-21T10:31:14Z jackdaniel: I'm not sure if I understand correctly, but is it related to something spreadsheet-like? 2017-08-21T10:47:48Z n_blownapart quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-08-21T10:50:46Z sleffy quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-08-21T10:51:48Z n_blownapart joined #scheme 2017-08-21T10:54:52Z jao joined #scheme 2017-08-21T10:56:08Z n_blownapart quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-08-21T10:57:18Z n_blownapart joined #scheme 2017-08-21T11:01:40Z n_blownapart quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-08-21T11:14:49Z n_blownapart joined #scheme 2017-08-21T11:23:34Z 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(conde (+o x y z) (== z 0)) => (conde (== z 0) (+o x y z)) 2017-08-21T12:07:30Z sz0 joined #scheme 2017-08-21T12:08:22Z hjek joined #scheme 2017-08-21T12:08:52Z ntinos joined #scheme 2017-08-21T12:13:34Z hjek quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-08-21T12:14:44Z n_blownapart joined #scheme 2017-08-21T12:18:39Z nomicflux joined #scheme 2017-08-21T12:20:50Z cemerick joined #scheme 2017-08-21T12:23:09Z n_blownapart quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-08-21T12:23:25Z gwatt: https://github.com/webyrd/miniKanren-with-symbolic-constraints/blob/master/mk.scm#L203-L210 2017-08-21T12:24:01Z Steverman joined #scheme 2017-08-21T12:24:45Z gwatt: and I think that's supposed to be (conde ((+o x y z)) ((== z 0))) 2017-08-21T12:27:09Z cemerick quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-08-21T12:27:25Z cemerick joined #scheme 2017-08-21T12:33:04Z Menche quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-08-21T12:33:06Z zaoqi quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-08-21T12:33:30Z Menche joined 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Can anyone help me with syntax-rules? I have a macro that needs a helper macro. But I don't want to pollute the toplevel, so I want to scope it inside with let-syntax, but somehow I'm doing it wrong. 2017-08-22T01:14:00Z ddp joined #scheme 2017-08-22T01:16:01Z brendyn joined #scheme 2017-08-22T01:20:10Z jao quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-08-22T01:24:37Z cemerick quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-08-22T01:25:36Z cemerick joined #scheme 2017-08-22T01:25:48Z Fare: https://gist.github.com/fare/f52184d070b54b137fe5da09bd0471f1 2017-08-22T01:26:04Z Fare: ^ can any syntax-rules expert help me with the trivial macro above: 2017-08-22T01:26:27Z badkins quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-08-22T01:43:33Z nomicflux quit (Quit: nomicflux) 2017-08-22T01:45:19Z BitPuffin|osx quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-08-22T01:47:33Z FalconPilot quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-08-22T01:57:55Z brendyn quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-08-22T01:58:45Z brendyn joined #scheme 2017-08-22T02:16:00Z sleffy joined #scheme 2017-08-22T02:30:48Z ddp quit (Quit: 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tautologico: I mean, that's the third version I was talking about 2017-08-22T05:01:53Z cemerick quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-08-22T05:05:03Z igajsin joined #scheme 2017-08-22T05:14:47Z pilne quit (Quit: Quitting!) 2017-08-22T05:17:19Z cemerick joined #scheme 2017-08-22T05:36:13Z jonaslund joined #scheme 2017-08-22T05:43:49Z sleffy quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-08-22T05:45:10Z sleffy joined #scheme 2017-08-22T05:57:07Z jonaslund quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-08-22T06:18:25Z lambda-11235 quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.9) 2017-08-22T06:54:23Z ertes quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-08-22T07:02:15Z igajsin quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-08-22T07:02:49Z beekill joined #scheme 2017-08-22T07:03:09Z angelds quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-08-22T07:03:17Z sleffy quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-08-22T07:05:23Z zaoqi joined #scheme 2017-08-22T07:07:57Z sleffy joined #scheme 2017-08-22T07:10:04Z zaoqi_ joined #scheme 2017-08-22T07:10:09Z zaoqi quit (Read 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way to import names in a qualified manner? 2017-08-22T09:00:37Z C-Keen: which scheme system is it? 2017-08-22T09:00:47Z ejt: chez 2017-08-22T09:00:59Z ejt: (prefix ) ? 2017-08-22T09:01:22Z ejt: but I think that's an extension rather than core r6rs 2017-08-22T09:02:17Z C-Keen: it has support for renaming 2017-08-22T09:02:47Z C-Keen: also prefixing 2017-08-22T09:03:05Z ejt: r6rs does? 2017-08-22T09:03:37Z C-Keen: I think R6RS also does specify this, let me check 2017-08-22T09:04:04Z ejt: ha, yes I found it in the r6rs doc 2017-08-22T09:04:11Z ejt: (prefix (balloons) balloon:) 2017-08-22T09:04:16Z ejt: that's perfect, thx 2017-08-22T09:05:05Z C-Keen: http://www.r6rs.org/final/html/r6rs/r6rs-Z-H-2.html#node_toc_node_sec_7.1 2017-08-22T09:22:10Z beekill quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-08-22T09:35:00Z plugd joined #scheme 2017-08-22T09:50:45Z zaoqi quit (Quit: zaoqi) 2017-08-22T09:58:48Z sleffy quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-08-22T10:23:04Z lritter joined #scheme 2017-08-22T10:33:31Z Fare: is it forbidden to nest ... patterns? 2017-08-22T10:34:16Z sz0 joined #scheme 2017-08-22T10:34:16Z C-Keen: what patterns? 2017-08-22T10:34:28Z C-Keen: oh '...' 2017-08-22T10:34:35Z gwatt: nope 2017-08-22T10:34:47Z gwatt: you can do ((asdf ...) ...) 2017-08-22T10:35:54Z Fare: No, I mean (syntax-rules () ((x ...) (let-syntax ((bar (syntax-rules () ((y ...) ---))) 2017-08-22T10:36:09Z jcowan quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-08-22T10:37:00Z Fare: not being able to nest these patterns, I could declare my helper at the top-level, or use CPS to convert the code inside let-syntax so it doesn't use ... 2017-08-22T10:37:44Z gwatt: ah, you want (... ...) 2017-08-22T10:37:56Z gwatt: in the inner pattern 2017-08-22T10:38:17Z Fare: yes 2017-08-22T10:38:22Z Fare: is that forbidden? 2017-08-22T10:38:55Z gwatt: No, I mean when you're specifying your helper, use (... ...) where you have ... 2017-08-22T10:39:09Z Fare: oh 2017-08-22T10:39:14Z gwatt: so that line, ((y ...) ---) would become ((y (... ...)) ---) 2017-08-22T10:40:05Z gwatt: http://scheme.com/tspl4/syntax.html#./syntax:s14 2017-08-22T10:45:03Z Fare: wow, that's f'ed up, but that works. Thanks a lot! 2017-08-22T10:45:30Z gwatt: how's it f'ed up? 2017-08-22T10:46:50Z Fare: not sure. I'm very confused by syntax-rules. 2017-08-22T10:47:09Z Fare: I just wrote my first syntax-rules CPS macros, and it was hell to debug. 2017-08-22T10:48:10Z gwatt: Yeah, they can be. does your scheme implementation have a way to expand and examine the macro output? 2017-08-22T10:48:53Z gwatt: (expand '(my-macro ...)) or something similar 2017-08-22T10:53:08Z jrdnull quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-08-22T10:53:29Z jrdnull joined #scheme 2017-08-22T10:54:18Z beekill joined #scheme 2017-08-22T10:54:45Z Fare: Not sure. I use '-debugging, the CPS equivalent of inserting a (die-with-stack-trace) in your program 2017-08-22T10:54:48Z rRru quit (Quit: rRru) 2017-08-22T10:56:47Z Fare: also, I found that I couldn't use let-syntax around the body of syntax-rules -- the helper isn't visible to the syntax-rules body, then. 2017-08-22T10:58:22Z pie_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-08-22T11:00:04Z neuri8 quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-08-22T11:00:30Z DeeEff quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-08-22T11:00:35Z catern quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-08-22T11:00:52Z M-krsiehl quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-08-22T11:01:08Z pygospa quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-08-22T11:01:12Z defanor quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-08-22T11:01:34Z nikivi quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-08-22T11:01:39Z axion quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-08-22T11:02:14Z gwatt: yeah, what is and isn't visible to macros is not always obvious 2017-08-22T11:02:53Z pygospa joined #scheme 2017-08-22T11:05:10Z neuri8 joined #scheme 2017-08-22T11:05:10Z nikivi joined #scheme 2017-08-22T11:05:25Z axion joined #scheme 2017-08-22T11:06:15Z defanor joined #scheme 2017-08-22T11:07:59Z catern joined #scheme 2017-08-22T11:08:08Z pie_ joined #scheme 2017-08-22T11:12:01Z Fare writes a 10th implementation of nest. 2017-08-22T11:12:14Z Fare: I'm barely starting to get ahold of Scheme macros. 2017-08-22T11:13:03Z Fare: in CL: (defmacro nest (&rest things) (reduce #'(lambda (outer inner) `(,@outer ,inner)) things :from-end t)) 2017-08-22T11:15:54Z DeeEff joined #scheme 2017-08-22T11:16:08Z M-krsiehl joined #scheme 2017-08-22T11:16:28Z ejt: Fare: I was ahving trouble with syntax-case a couple of weeks ago 2017-08-22T11:16:31Z ejt: it gets easier 2017-08-22T11:16:55Z ejt: also remember you can't do everything with syntax-rules 2017-08-22T11:18:43Z gwatt: Fare: this is the equivalent in scheme: https://pastebin.com/1MfdApNf 2017-08-22T11:25:57Z Fare: gwatt: wow, much simpler than my own versions :-( 2017-08-22T11:26:07Z Fare: thanks, I learned something 2017-08-22T11:27:37Z gwatt: Np, the trick is to make the macro recursive whenever possible 2017-08-22T11:29:01Z gwatt: In non-hygienic systems recursive macros are problematic at best, but scheme can do it just fine 2017-08-22T11:32:14Z jackdaniel: when I read "non-hygienic" I feel bad, because I like such macros better, yet it is negative (who would want to avoid hygiene) 2017-08-22T11:32:59Z jackdaniel: quite unfortunate term, I'd like "organic" better, wouldn't be so judgamental I suppose. shame that the first one is already adopted 2017-08-22T11:33:22Z gwatt: "Lexically scoped macros" would probably be more accurate 2017-08-22T11:36:32Z beekill quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-08-22T11:41:47Z Fare: gwatt, isn't your implementation O(n^2), though? 2017-08-22T11:42:36Z gwatt: Fare: how big is n? 2017-08-22T11:43:13Z gwatt: and remember that you pay this cost at copmile time, not runtime 2017-08-22T11:44:34Z basket quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-08-22T11:44:57Z Fare: gwatt: not THAT big, maybe 20-40 max 2017-08-22T11:47:20Z gwatt: I just ran nest with 60 (+ 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10)s and it was instantaneous 2017-08-22T11:49:55Z X-Scale joined #scheme 2017-08-22T12:07:08Z nomicflux joined #scheme 2017-08-22T12:07:27Z lritter quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-08-22T12:14:42Z Fare: reminds me when I made asdf O(n^3) => O(n) on a large system with >1000 of entries 2017-08-22T12:21:49Z gwatt: asdf? 2017-08-22T12:22:13Z Fare: gwatt: how simply can you make it O(n) ? gwatt: my "simple" solution failed miserably when the nested lists were not forms but e.g. cond clauses. 2017-08-22T12:22:28Z Fare: gwatt: asdf is the Common Lisp build system 2017-08-22T12:22:43Z gwatt: ah 2017-08-22T12:23:12Z Fare: I recently jumped ship from (SB) CL to (Gerbil) Scheme 2017-08-22T12:23:22Z BitPuffin|osx joined #scheme 2017-08-22T12:24:29Z Fare: though I still kind of maintain ASDF, 8 years on. 2017-08-22T12:25:26Z gwatt: does gerbil scheme have syntax-case? 2017-08-22T12:25:33Z Fare: yes it does 2017-08-22T12:25:53Z Fare: it has its own modified syntax case with a PLT-like module system on top of Gambit. 2017-08-22T12:27:48Z Fare: I was a bit unsettled by datum->syntax requiring an identifier as first argument, so I could just use stx as in PLT Racket, but then vyzo (author of Gerbil) told me using an arbitrary stx here was a Racket extension. 2017-08-22T12:28:31Z gwatt: what I usually do is capture the macro name in the pattern and sue that 2017-08-22T12:29:19Z Fare: one thing that confuses me is that the notion of identifier in hygienic macros is closer to the pi-calculus than the lambda-calculus, because you introduce the identifier at a wider scope than you bind it. 2017-08-22T12:29:43Z Fare: that's what I did, and what vyzo told me was the standard thing, too 2017-08-22T12:30:24Z gwatt: https://pastebin.com/3BvjQDGV 2017-08-22T12:31:02Z gwatt: that's pretty much the same as the common lisp impl 2017-08-22T12:38:09Z nomicflux quit (Quit: nomicflux) 2017-08-22T12:39:43Z X-Scale left #scheme 2017-08-22T12:45:26Z Fare: gwatt: I think you forgot a (reverse (syntax->list ...)) around the #'(outer ...) 2017-08-22T12:45:41Z Fare: I mean the #'(e** ...) 2017-08-22T12:49:28Z Fare: I think I'll keep a variant of that latest version you wrote as the best implementation. 2017-08-22T12:49:38Z Fare: so far 2017-08-22T12:49:44Z Fare: thanks 2017-08-22T12:50:02Z Fare: I'm glad I wrote all these other implementations, though: it was a good way to learn. 2017-08-22T13:04:49Z gwatt: Fare: ah yes, though I would probably just use fold-right instead of (reverse (fold-left)) 2017-08-22T13:11:15Z BitPuffin|osx quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-08-22T13:11:40Z pjb: jackdaniel: actually, reasonable biological beings would prefer non-hygiene: it strengthen your immunitary system, bacteries cmpose more than 50% of your body, so you'd be dead without them, etc. 2017-08-22T13:11:50Z pjb: jackdaniel: sterile macros are bad for your health! 2017-08-22T13:14:33Z jackdaniel: words shape the reality. if you name something after something perceived as pejorative, then it gets affected by this perception. 2017-08-22T13:14:45Z cromachina quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-08-22T13:14:59Z jackdaniel: hygiene is a word describinng body cleanness, while sterile describes something indeed unhealthy for organic beings 2017-08-22T13:18:28Z pjb: again, body cleanness is bad. 2017-08-22T13:18:39Z pjb: (too much of it, at least) 2017-08-22T13:19:15Z Fare: here's a bath of acid 2017-08-22T13:19:34Z pjb: or even soap. 2017-08-22T13:19:57Z pjb: http://www.toomuchof.com/showering-bathing/ 2017-08-22T13:20:22Z qu1j0t3 wonders if i've reached toomuchof.com/irc 2017-08-22T13:20:37Z gwatt: qu1j0t3: check toomuchofcom/toomuchof 2017-08-22T13:20:52Z qu1j0t3 is at notenoughof.com/vacation 2017-08-22T13:38:52Z jonaslund quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 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implement everything with continuations. 2017-08-22T17:06:54Z halidyne: ejt: wow, I never even saw this site when I was googling things on Scheme... thanks a million 2017-08-22T17:07:17Z ejt: I'm a beginner and picked up a print copy of that book. It's really good. 2017-08-22T17:07:32Z Steverman quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-08-22T17:07:58Z halidyne left #scheme 2017-08-22T17:08:54Z pjb: Also, you may want to read http://home.pipeline.com/~hbaker1/MetaCircular.html 2017-08-22T17:17:44Z igajsin joined #scheme 2017-08-22T17:20:10Z Menche quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-08-22T17:20:40Z Menche joined #scheme 2017-08-22T17:33:46Z alezost quit (Quit: I live in GuixSD and Emacs ) 2017-08-22T17:40:06Z jonaslund joined #scheme 2017-08-22T17:40:52Z Menche quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-08-22T17:58:12Z Fare quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-08-22T18:11:18Z sleffy joined #scheme 2017-08-22T18:24:10Z skeuomorf quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-08-22T18:26:03Z Menche joined #scheme 2017-08-22T18:33:36Z justinethier: ecraven: are you there? 2017-08-22T18:36:54Z terpri joined #scheme 2017-08-22T18:56:20Z skeuomorf joined #scheme 2017-08-22T19:14:21Z ertes joined #scheme 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Was wondering about use of functions vs macros. 2017-08-23T16:55:07Z Fare: use functions if you want 2017-08-23T16:55:17Z chet: Primary use case for macros seems like custom syntax + custom evaluation order. 2017-08-23T16:55:18Z Fare: use macros if available 2017-08-23T16:55:22Z Fare: define macros sparsely 2017-08-23T16:56:35Z chet: So only for custom evaluation order/special forms they would be necessary, right? Any other typical well known use cases? 2017-08-23T16:57:06Z terpri quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-08-23T16:57:18Z gwatt: if you're introducing new identifiers 2017-08-23T16:57:29Z gwatt: or need to delay evaluation 2017-08-23T16:57:45Z ijp: when pre-computing something at compile time 2017-08-23T16:58:02Z ertes joined #scheme 2017-08-23T16:58:45Z ijp slathers on a generous helping of Ole McKnuth's Premature Optimisation Warning paste 2017-08-23T17:01:41Z skeuomorf joined #scheme 2017-08-23T17:06:01Z chet quit (Quit: Page closed) 2017-08-23T17:17:26Z Menche_ is now known as Menche 2017-08-23T17:18:09Z mason left #scheme 2017-08-23T17:21:07Z pie_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-08-23T17:21:15Z pie__ joined #scheme 2017-08-23T17:23:59Z tessier quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-08-23T17:36:17Z vicenteH quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-08-23T17:36:34Z sleffy joined #scheme 2017-08-23T17:40:46Z X-Scale quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-08-23T17:43:13Z skeuomorf quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-08-23T17:46:38Z ertes quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-08-23T17:57:58Z tessier joined #scheme 2017-08-23T17:57:58Z tessier quit (Changing host) 2017-08-23T17:57:58Z tessier joined #scheme 2017-08-23T18:31:15Z Riastradh joined #scheme 2017-08-23T18:32:18Z Fare quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2017-08-23T18:40:01Z chrisa joined #scheme 2017-08-23T18:42:51Z dustyweb is now known as paroneayea 2017-08-23T18:44:18Z chrisa: Hello. Since I've upgraded to emacs25 (Debian stretch), inferior scheme mode echoes back each input line before printing the result. 2017-08-23T18:44:23Z BitPuffin|osx quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-08-23T18:44:29Z chrisa: Anyone's seen that and got a clue? 2017-08-23T18:47:46Z vyzo: try (setq comint-process-echoes t) 2017-08-23T18:47:53Z vyzo: with M-x eval 2017-08-23T18:49:15Z chrisa: Wow that fixes it, thanks! 2017-08-23T18:53:06Z terpri joined #scheme 2017-08-23T19:01:56Z arbv quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-08-23T19:04:31Z arbv joined #scheme 2017-08-23T19:07:20Z Lowl3v3l quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-08-23T19:12:26Z wigust quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-08-23T19:14:10Z wigust joined #scheme 2017-08-23T19:22:18Z skeuomorf joined #scheme 2017-08-23T19:33:06Z X-Scale joined #scheme 2017-08-23T19:33:43Z daviid joined #scheme 2017-08-23T19:37:35Z Menche quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-08-23T19:38:03Z Menche joined #scheme 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not seen those 2017-08-24T12:50:36Z ejt: ha, his indentation changes are exactly what I was after 2017-08-24T12:51:25Z storer quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-08-24T12:55:21Z zaoqi joined #scheme 2017-08-24T12:56:38Z nomicflux quit (Quit: nomicflux) 2017-08-24T13:03:46Z plugd_ quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-08-24T13:06:07Z plugd_ joined #scheme 2017-08-24T13:21:44Z foof joined #scheme 2017-08-24T13:26:27Z beekill joined #scheme 2017-08-24T13:49:05Z cromachina quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-08-24T13:57:02Z paroneayea is now known as dustyweb 2017-08-24T14:17:49Z badkins joined #scheme 2017-08-24T14:18:24Z zaoqi quit (Quit: zaoqi) 2017-08-24T14:19:05Z zaoqi joined #scheme 2017-08-24T14:22:56Z zaoqi quit (Client Quit) 2017-08-24T14:23:36Z zaoqi joined #scheme 2017-08-24T14:28:55Z wigust joined #scheme 2017-08-24T14:29:42Z plugd_ quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.9) 2017-08-24T14:29:58Z lvo quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-08-24T14:41:18Z smazga joined 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I need to represent a C enum type, what is the best way? 2017-08-25T18:27:11Z marvin2 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-08-25T18:34:26Z aeth: Try #guile if you can't get help here 2017-08-25T18:34:36Z aeth: Especially for a Guile-specific question 2017-08-25T18:34:53Z TCZ joined #scheme 2017-08-25T18:36:07Z davexunit: stratotanker: a variable per item in the enumeration 2017-08-25T18:36:36Z davexunit: for low-level stuff. 2017-08-25T18:37:06Z davexunit: for a more Schemey interface I write procedures that translate a symbol into the correct integer value for the C enum 2017-08-25T18:37:18Z Menche joined #scheme 2017-08-25T18:37:50Z stratotanker: vavexunit, thanks, i would like to ask: I'm thinking about memory, enums in C does not occupy memory, there is a similar construct in scheme? 2017-08-25T18:44:21Z gwatt: probably implementation dependent, but fixnums are going to be the closest thing 2017-08-25T18:46:51Z davexunit: stratotanker: what do you mean "don't occupy memory"? 2017-08-25T18:46:57Z davexunit: an enum is an integer 2017-08-25T18:47:26Z davexunit: I think you may be misunderstanding something 2017-08-25T18:48:39Z davexunit: my guess is that it's a static vs. dynamic language misunderstanding 2017-08-25T18:50:17Z stratotanker: davexunit, I mean, like a #define, i'ts only a label, managed as text during compilation. In the resulting assembly you do not see a variable reference, but a literal integer valuevalue 2017-08-25T18:50:50Z davexunit: stratotanker: that's an implementation detail, though. 2017-08-25T18:50:50Z stratotanker: *value 2017-08-25T18:51:01Z emacsoma` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-08-25T18:51:38Z stratotanker: davexunit, don't hate me, I'm new to scheme, I will learn well 2017-08-25T18:52:18Z davexunit: in Scheme, you could write a macro that expanded a form into an integer 2017-08-25T18:54:06Z emacsomancer joined #scheme 2017-08-25T18:54:30Z stratotanker: davexunit im reading about, i'ts something like (define-syntax NAME VALUE) ? 2017-08-25T18:54:40Z davexunit: I do lots of Scheme FFI stuff and all I ever do is write 2 procedures: one converts from Scheme to C, the other converts from C to Scheme 2017-08-25T18:55:01Z davexunit: for the Scheme to C case, I convert a symbol to a integer 2017-08-25T18:55:10Z davexunit: for the C to Scheme case, I convert an integer to a symbol 2017-08-25T18:56:07Z stratotanker: davexunit using control mechanism like (cond? ...) 2017-08-25T18:56:16Z davexunit: that's one way to do it 2017-08-25T18:56:21Z davexunit: I use guile's pattern matcher 2017-08-25T18:56:38Z davexunit: but cond can do the same 2017-08-25T18:56:48Z stratotanker: uh, nice I'll learn about many thank's!!! 2017-08-25T18:57:15Z davexunit: in Guile the pattern matcher is in (ice-9 match) but maybe if you are brand new to Scheme it's best saved for a later time 2017-08-25T18:57:35Z kammd quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2017-08-25T18:57:43Z davexunit: but basically I can do something like (match 'foo ('foo 1) ('bar 2) ('baz 3)) 2017-08-25T18:57:45Z lambda-smith quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2017-08-25T18:57:49Z davexunit: which would evaluate to 1 2017-08-25T18:58:28Z gwatt: for that I would probably just use case 2017-08-25T19:01:03Z badkins quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-08-25T19:08:24Z sleffy quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-08-25T19:10:32Z sz0 quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2017-08-25T19:16:11Z vicenteH joined #scheme 2017-08-25T19:19:26Z stratotanker: davexunit one more question: Since this interface will become public, I'll follow scheme conventions. It's common in C to write enum and defines in ALL_CAPITAL_LETTERS_SEPARATED_BY_UNDERSCORE, how about scheme? 2017-08-25T19:21:49Z davexunit: stratotanker: guile names certain variables that come from C like that 2017-08-25T19:22:09Z davexunit: if you check out the network socket part of the guile manual you can see examples 2017-08-25T19:22:16Z davexunit: so I'd say there's good precedent for it 2017-08-25T19:23:49Z stratotanker: Yes, I was looking into the manual. They use AF_UNIX capitalized. But I was also looking at other bindings, gtk for example: they convert uppercase into lowercase, and _ with - 2017-08-25T19:24:32Z FalconPilot quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-08-25T19:25:52Z alezost quit (Quit: I live in GuixSD and Emacs ) 2017-08-25T19:33:34Z grublet quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-08-25T19:35:56Z gwatt: scheme in general seems to prefer all lowercase with dashes as separators 2017-08-25T19:37:44Z jcowan joined #scheme 2017-08-25T19:40:15Z jcowan_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-08-25T19:40:34Z jcowan_ joined #scheme 2017-08-25T19:42:18Z Kyo91_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-08-25T19:43:48Z jcowan quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-08-25T19:47:49Z davexunit: stratotanker: people do both. 2017-08-25T19:47:55Z davexunit: pick your flavor. :) 2017-08-25T19:48:17Z stratotanker: downcase ;) 2017-08-25T19:49:28Z davexunit: totally valid 2017-08-25T19:55:13Z Kyo91_ joined #scheme 2017-08-25T20:01:09Z aeth: Nearly all Lisps use all lower case with hyphens, avoiding underscores and camelcase. 2017-08-25T20:01:39Z aeth: I'm surprised Guile doesn't translate everything in its FFI. 2017-08-25T20:08:52Z ijp: the (system foreign) doesn't do a lot of magic 2017-08-25T20:12:46Z Horacebert joined #scheme 2017-08-25T20:12:49Z TCZ quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-08-25T20:20:11Z vicenteH quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-08-25T20:20:27Z vicenteH joined #scheme 2017-08-25T20:23:42Z Kyo91_ quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-08-25T20:24:28Z FalconPilot joined #scheme 2017-08-25T20:25:08Z reich joined #scheme 2017-08-25T20:31:22Z jcowan joined #scheme 2017-08-25T20:33:05Z stratotanker: damn, another stupid question... I'm trying to use match over a read character, it doesn't work 2017-08-25T20:33:52Z jcowan_ quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-08-25T20:34:24Z stratotanker: I read the character using ice-9 textual-ports (read-char), and then I match using pattern #\x (x is the character) 2017-08-25T20:35:57Z Horacebert: Sorry, I probably arrived in the middle of the discussion, but maybe I can take a look (warning: semi-newbie here) 2017-08-25T20:36:58Z Horacebert: What function do you use for matching? char=? 2017-08-25T20:39:31Z stratotanker: cutting some text, minimal expression is: (match (read-char) ((#\x) (...)) 2017-08-25T20:40:03Z Horacebert: Isn't #\x a prefix which expects a hex code after it? 2017-08-25T20:40:40Z stratotanker: If I understand right, #\x -> character x 2017-08-25T20:40:47Z Horacebert: Nope. 2017-08-25T20:40:54Z stratotanker: #\a ->character a 2017-08-25T20:40:56Z Horacebert: Try (display #\x40) 2017-08-25T20:40:59Z stratotanker: and so on 2017-08-25T20:41:14Z Horacebert: Only some special characters have special "#\" names 2017-08-25T20:41:18Z cemerick quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-08-25T20:41:24Z Horacebert: Like #\newline 2017-08-25T20:41:35Z Horacebert: #\xNNNN means "The character whose code is NNNN" 2017-08-25T20:41:39Z stratotanker: (display #\x) => x 2017-08-25T20:41:49Z Horacebert: Apparently, I'm wrong. 2017-08-25T20:42:39Z stratotanker: im reading here: https://www.gnu.org/software/guile/manual/html_node/Characters.html#Characters 2017-08-25T20:42:45Z cemerick joined #scheme 2017-08-25T20:43:12Z stratotanker: Horacebert, don't worry :) 2017-08-25T20:43:45Z Horacebert: Then I'd like to see the help for the "match" function. Gimme a sec. 2017-08-25T20:43:58Z civodul joined #scheme 2017-08-25T20:47:46Z ijp: you're matching the list '(#\x) not the character #\x 2017-08-25T20:47:59Z ijp: easy done 2017-08-25T20:48:45Z Horacebert: Yeah, I just tested that hypothesis. 2017-08-25T20:48:52Z Horacebert: I was going to say the same thing. 2017-08-25T20:48:57Z Horacebert: Remove '( and ), and it works. 2017-08-25T20:51:40Z stratotanker: yeah, many thanks 2017-08-25T20:52:00Z sethalves quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-08-25T20:52:19Z sleffy joined #scheme 2017-08-25T20:52:50Z stratotanker: i must learn a lot! :) 2017-08-25T20:53:26Z ijp: just remember: every paren is sacred, every paren is dope, every paren is needed in your local scope 2017-08-25T20:53:52Z ijp whistles tunelessly 2017-08-25T20:54:28Z ski tunes whistfully 2017-08-25T21:00:57Z jonaslund joined #scheme 2017-08-25T21:04:09Z badkins joined #scheme 2017-08-25T21:07:02Z sz0 joined #scheme 2017-08-25T21:09:39Z sethalves joined #scheme 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ZZZzzz…) 2017-08-28T13:50:17Z ventonegro: python476: http://library.readscheme.org/page9.html 2017-08-28T13:50:32Z python476: obviously 2017-08-28T13:50:58Z python476: this might not be practical, I mean maybe not used, or obsolete isn't it ? 2017-08-28T13:51:34Z python476: oh pierard published with feeley ! http://repository.readscheme.org/ftp/papers/sw2007/06-pierard.pdf 2017-08-28T13:52:05Z ventonegro: python476: It's very system-specific 2017-08-28T13:52:20Z ventonegro: python476: For instance, Guile stuff: https://wingolog.org/tags/concurrency 2017-08-28T13:52:42Z python476: ha, I looked at chez and racket but ran away scared :D 2017-08-28T13:52:51Z python476: maybe guile will be better for my brain 2017-08-28T13:53:10Z gwatt: what scared you about racket and chez? 2017-08-28T13:53:29Z ventonegro: Gambit is in the process of implementing green threads over native OS threads 2017-08-28T13:53:41Z python476: racket I ended on the interpreter thread internal 2017-08-28T13:53:48Z ventonegro: Some of that has already landed in master 2017-08-28T13:54:28Z python476: chez felt like an implementation of the usual locking ideas, I was looking for "different" 2017-08-28T13:55:31Z python476: I don't know, writing a bit of python , I started to have visions of macro threading queues implicitely over threadpooled lambdas 2017-08-28T13:55:54Z python476: even assembling DAGs under the hood to have some concurrent laziness 2017-08-28T13:56:05Z python476: and it felt like something lispers/schemers could have done 2017-08-28T13:58:21Z edgar-rft: "concurrent laziness" is who longer does nothing wins? 2017-08-28T14:00:41Z FalconPilot joined #scheme 2017-08-28T14:02:50Z edgar-rft feels instant laziness right now 2017-08-28T14:04:00Z jcowan joined #scheme 2017-08-28T14:05:20Z FalconPilot quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-08-28T14:06:29Z python476 is lifting his legs at a regular pace to compensate 2017-08-28T14:17:48Z jonaslund quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-08-28T14:25:44Z Kyo91_ joined #scheme 2017-08-28T14:36:07Z pie__ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-08-28T14:43:00Z cemerick quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-08-28T14:43:50Z cemerick joined #scheme 2017-08-28T14:45:58Z badkins_ joined #scheme 2017-08-28T14:46:57Z pie_ joined #scheme 2017-08-28T14:48:08Z FalconPilot joined #scheme 2017-08-28T14:49:13Z badkins quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2017-08-28T15:03:14Z Steverman quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.9) 2017-08-28T15:10:34Z tessier quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-08-28T15:30:12Z emacsomancer quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2017-08-28T15:41:42Z civodul quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 25.2.1)) 2017-08-28T15:42:02Z ft quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-08-28T15:44:52Z bsima quit (Quit: Bye!) 2017-08-28T15:45:14Z python476 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-08-28T15:48:27Z bsima joined #scheme 2017-08-28T15:49:34Z tessier joined #scheme 2017-08-28T15:49:34Z tessier quit (Changing host) 2017-08-28T15:49:34Z tessier joined #scheme 2017-08-28T15:53:18Z Steverman joined #scheme 2017-08-28T15:53:56Z smazga joined #scheme 2017-08-28T15:55:25Z ft joined #scheme 2017-08-28T16:01:06Z badkins_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-08-28T16:03:04Z alezost joined #scheme 2017-08-28T16:12:27Z Murii quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-08-28T16:29:23Z FalconPilot quit (Quit: Lost terminal) 2017-08-28T16:40:52Z amz3 joined #scheme 2017-08-28T16:41:05Z amz3: who wants to scheme web goodness? 2017-08-28T16:41:48Z amz3: I think all you need some more scheme goodness 2017-08-28T16:42:02Z amz3: little did you know, I had what you need... 2017-08-28T16:44:17Z amz3: behold the mock up of my next toy aka. incoming 2017-08-28T16:44:19Z amz3: drumroll 2017-08-28T16:44:21Z amz3: https://screenshots.firefox.com/711U5hBn2btoBtJk/localhost 2017-08-28T16:46:14Z sleffy joined #scheme 2017-08-28T16:49:21Z justinethier joined #scheme 2017-08-28T16:50:58Z badkins joined #scheme 2017-08-28T16:56:42Z badkins_ joined #scheme 2017-08-28T17:00:09Z badkins quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-08-28T17:08:38Z DeeEff: amz3: that's cool. Which scheme did you build it with? 2017-08-28T17:16:20Z jonaslund joined #scheme 2017-08-28T17:20:41Z alezost quit (Quit: I live in GuixSD and Emacs ) 2017-08-28T17:30:54Z nullx002 quit (Quit: EliteBNC - http://elitebnc.org (Auto-Removal: idle account/not being used)) 2017-08-28T17:35:34Z Steverman quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.9) 2017-08-28T17:36:00Z bsima quit (Quit: Bye!) 2017-08-28T17:36:49Z Kyo91_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-08-28T17:39:53Z Kyo91_ joined #scheme 2017-08-28T17:41:09Z tautologico joined #scheme 2017-08-28T17:42:45Z amz3: DeeEff: BiwaScheme 2017-08-28T17:43:09Z amz3: DeeEff: that said, right now it's just a static website with bunch of css 2017-08-28T17:43:15Z DeeEff: Oh. Wasn't expecting that. 2017-08-28T17:43:16Z amz3: css is still css 2017-08-28T17:43:47Z DeeEff: Are you doing any scheme->js stuff? 2017-08-28T17:43:50Z amz3: DeeEff: actually BiwaScheme works quiet well 2017-08-28T17:43:54Z amz3: DeeEff: it's an interpreter 2017-08-28T17:44:05Z amz3: DeeEff: it doesn't compile to js 2017-08-28T17:44:17Z DeeEff: Ah okay. 2017-08-28T17:44:43Z DeeEff: Well, congrats on getting it running. Is this for a personal mail server or just for fun? 2017-08-28T17:45:04Z amz3: The things that are missing from BiwaScheme is match and define-syntax 2017-08-28T17:45:24Z amz3: (match is defined in terms of define-syntax i think) 2017-08-28T17:45:52Z amz3: DeeEff: I am just goofing around, thought I really need another webmail 2017-08-28T17:47:09Z amz3: DeeEff: the above is based on https://github.com/amirouche/forward.scm 2017-08-28T17:48:50Z amz3: I am trying to make a portfolio for forward.scm 2017-08-28T17:49:21Z amz3: s/make/build/ 2017-08-28T17:49:56Z DeeEff: Neato. I typically only use Chicken nowadays, but it seems pretty compact. 2017-08-28T17:50:10Z DeeEff: Make and build are synonymous :P 2017-08-28T17:52:00Z daviid joined #scheme 2017-08-28T17:53:36Z amz3: I mostly use Guile 2017-08-28T17:56:50Z zmt00 joined #scheme 2017-08-28T17:58:16Z cemerick quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-08-28T17:58:42Z cemerick joined #scheme 2017-08-28T18:10:16Z jonaslund quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-08-28T18:26:14Z aeth quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-08-28T18:28:30Z aeth joined #scheme 2017-08-28T18:30:20Z lritter joined #scheme 2017-08-28T18:52:11Z skeuomorf joined #scheme 2017-08-28T18:58:13Z bsima joined #scheme 2017-08-28T19:00:59Z Kyo91_ quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-08-28T19:07:30Z jonaslund joined #scheme 2017-08-28T19:43:44Z cemerick quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-08-28T19:53:29Z cmaloney: I want more scheme goodness 2017-08-28T19:55:19Z cemerick joined #scheme 2017-08-28T19:55:21Z jcowan_ joined #scheme 2017-08-28T19:55:33Z jcowan_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-08-28T19:57:27Z Kyo91_ joined #scheme 2017-08-28T19:57:51Z jcowan quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-08-28T20:01:44Z Kyo91_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-08-28T20:02:59Z Blkt quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-08-28T20:03:11Z Blkt joined #scheme 2017-08-28T20:03:12Z Horacebert joined #scheme 2017-08-28T20:03:23Z brendyn quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-08-28T20:03:23Z Blkt quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-08-28T20:04:05Z Blkt joined #scheme 2017-08-28T20:04:17Z Blkt quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-08-28T20:04:32Z Blkt joined #scheme 2017-08-28T20:08:32Z Kyo91_ joined #scheme 2017-08-28T20:27:22Z cemerick quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-08-28T20:27:41Z cemerick joined #scheme 2017-08-28T20:31:38Z jonaslund quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-08-28T20:35:44Z cemerick quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-08-28T20:36:53Z cemerick joined #scheme 2017-08-28T20:46:23Z cemerick quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-08-28T20:46:23Z badkins_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-08-28T20:47:23Z cemerick joined #scheme 2017-08-28T20:54:16Z Horacebert quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-08-28T21:11:49Z civodul joined #scheme 2017-08-28T21:13:13Z jonaslund joined #scheme 2017-08-28T21:13:57Z crucify_me quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-08-28T21:14:03Z crucify_me joined #scheme 2017-08-28T21:17:41Z crucify_me is now known as n_blownapart 2017-08-28T21:18:55Z n_blownapart is now known as crucify_me 2017-08-28T21:29:31Z crucify_me quit 2017-08-28T21:29:33Z badkins joined #scheme 2017-08-28T21:34:59Z cemerick quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-08-28T21:40:39Z mejja joined #scheme 2017-08-28T21:44:13Z Kyo91_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-08-28T21:47:03Z justinethier quit (Quit: Page closed) 2017-08-28T22:02:12Z ertes joined #scheme 2017-08-28T22:10:40Z tautologico quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2017-08-28T22:13:41Z mejja quit (Quit: \ No newline at end of file) 2017-08-28T22:45:46Z civodul quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-08-28T22:49:21Z daviid quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-08-28T23:06:43Z smazga quit (Quit: leaving) 2017-08-28T23:17:24Z python476 joined #scheme 2017-08-28T23:17:26Z python476: hi again 2017-08-28T23:17:50Z python476: what are win10 precompiled binary ready scheme impl ? 2017-08-28T23:17:53Z python476: I found mit scheme 2017-08-28T23:19:20Z python476: oh, edwin is so nice 2017-08-28T23:24:56Z python476 quit (Quit: Page closed) 2017-08-28T23:25:55Z vjacob quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-08-28T23:36:23Z sz0 joined #scheme 2017-08-28T23:39:37Z vjacob joined #scheme 2017-08-28T23:44:13Z lritter quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-08-29T00:04:44Z enderby joined #scheme 2017-08-29T00:09:23Z pjb quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2017-08-29T00:13:13Z BitPuffin|osx quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-08-29T00:17:38Z vjacob quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2017-08-29T00:30:24Z vjacob joined #scheme 2017-08-29T00:33:02Z sleffy quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2017-08-29T00:38:42Z brendyn joined #scheme 2017-08-29T00:41:57Z cemerick joined #scheme 2017-08-29T00:41:58Z kvda joined #scheme 2017-08-29T01:00:46Z mlaine quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-08-29T01:00:59Z fgudin quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-08-29T01:07:11Z pjb joined #scheme 2017-08-29T01:18:06Z beekill joined #scheme 2017-08-29T01:25:16Z peterhil quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-08-29T01:27:25Z peterhil joined #scheme 2017-08-29T01:27:37Z pjb quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-08-29T01:36:41Z peterhil quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-08-29T02:11:33Z DeeEff: As I understand it there's a package for CHICKEN out there 2017-08-29T02:11:43Z DeeEff: it also is distributed over cygwin 2017-08-29T02:14:27Z marvin3 joined #scheme 2017-08-29T02:15:19Z marvin2 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-08-29T02:21:29Z jethier joined #scheme 2017-08-29T02:25:07Z nomicflux joined #scheme 2017-08-29T02:31:35Z nomicflux quit (Quit: nomicflux) 2017-08-29T02:40:11Z jonaslund quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-08-29T02:47:32Z ArneBab joined #scheme 2017-08-29T02:51:54Z ArneBab_ quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-08-29T03:05:46Z jethier quit (Quit: Page closed) 2017-08-29T03:18:35Z cemerick quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-08-29T03:19:32Z cemerick joined #scheme 2017-08-29T03:26:53Z pjb joined #scheme 2017-08-29T03:42:58Z peterhil joined #scheme 2017-08-29T03:58:57Z amz3 quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2017-08-29T03:59:16Z amz3 joined #scheme 2017-08-29T04:06:31Z n_blownapart joined #scheme 2017-08-29T04:06:43Z jao quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-08-29T04:08:11Z beekill quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-08-29T04:09:45Z n_blownapart is now known as crucify_me 2017-08-29T04:24:35Z pjb quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2017-08-29T04:24:52Z badkins quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-08-29T04:33:05Z skeuomorf quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-08-29T04:34:40Z terpri quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-08-29T04:38:37Z crucify_me quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-08-29T04:42:06Z sleffy joined #scheme 2017-08-29T04:53:50Z cromachina quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-08-29T04:54:16Z cromachina joined #scheme 2017-08-29T04:55:32Z dustyweb quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-08-29T04:55:54Z dustyweb joined #scheme 2017-08-29T04:57:24Z cross quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-08-29T04:57:52Z cross joined #scheme 2017-08-29T05:03:38Z pie_ quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-08-29T05:06:51Z pie_ joined #scheme 2017-08-29T05:11:37Z sleffy quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-08-29T05:12:24Z sleffy joined #scheme 2017-08-29T05:16:30Z sz0 quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2017-08-29T05:21:55Z pjb joined #scheme 2017-08-29T05:35:57Z sarkic quit (Quit: leaving) 2017-08-29T05:37:33Z sarkic joined #scheme 2017-08-29T05:43:14Z pjb quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2017-08-29T05:47:50Z cromachina quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-08-29T05:48:16Z cromachina joined #scheme 2017-08-29T05:55:01Z amz3 quit (Quit: Artufath) 2017-08-29T06:12:20Z Murii joined #scheme 2017-08-29T06:22:13Z vjacob quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-08-29T06:42:29Z jonaslund joined #scheme 2017-08-29T06:43:46Z sleffy quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-08-29T07:20:43Z cemerick quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-08-29T07:40:47Z BitPuffin|osx joined #scheme 2017-08-29T08:30:42Z pjb joined #scheme 2017-08-29T09:51:48Z kvda quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. 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(list-accumulator)) 2017-08-29T19:09:31Z jcowan: I'm not sure what those would mean 2017-08-29T19:09:53Z jcowan: I am adding make-accumulator, which takes an update-the-seed procedure and a finalize procedure 2017-08-29T19:10:03Z jcowan: s/seed/state 2017-08-29T19:10:32Z gwatt: that seems good 2017-08-29T19:14:38Z leppie quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-08-29T19:19:14Z leppie joined #scheme 2017-08-29T19:23:21Z leppie quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-08-29T19:27:37Z edgar-rft is charging his accumulators right now 2017-08-29T19:28:07Z leppie joined #scheme 2017-08-29T19:32:25Z leppie quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-08-29T19:33:58Z sz0 quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2017-08-29T19:34:47Z narendraj9 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-08-29T19:35:13Z jmd quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-08-29T19:36:58Z leppie joined #scheme 2017-08-29T19:41:21Z leppie quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-08-29T19:45:43Z leppie joined #scheme 2017-08-29T19:49:58Z leppie quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-08-29T19:54:28Z leppie joined #scheme 2017-08-29T19:54:32Z thawes quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-08-29T19:58:38Z leppie quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-08-29T20:00:23Z ddp joined #scheme 2017-08-29T20:03:47Z jcowan: gwatt: do you mean (apply (list-accumulator) this that tother)? 2017-08-29T20:04:28Z leppie joined #scheme 2017-08-29T20:05:23Z bgardner quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-08-29T20:07:16Z stux|work quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2017-08-29T20:07:43Z ddp quit (Quit: ddp) 2017-08-29T20:09:15Z stux|work joined #scheme 2017-08-29T20:14:12Z gravicappa quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-08-29T20:14:34Z Kyo91_ quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-08-29T20:22:33Z smazga quit (Quit: leaving) 2017-08-29T20:24:12Z pierpa joined #scheme 2017-08-29T20:25:10Z gwatt: jcowan: no, I think your make-accumulator function handles the case I was talking about 2017-08-29T20:26:40Z gwatt: basically, when creating an accumulator you get a function that's applied to all accumulated values. 2017-08-29T20:28:30Z ddp joined #scheme 2017-08-29T20:29:18Z ertes joined #scheme 2017-08-29T20:30:33Z aeth: which SRFI? 2017-08-29T20:30:58Z aeth: 158? https://srfi.schemers.org/srfi-158/ 2017-08-29T20:31:11Z jcowan: yes 2017-08-29T20:31:26Z jcowan: it adds a few things to the generator SRFI, including accumulators 2017-08-29T20:31:43Z jcowan: I haven't updated the implementation yet, though 2017-08-29T20:33:31Z jonaslund joined #scheme 2017-08-29T20:34:20Z Kyo91_ joined #scheme 2017-08-29T20:35:47Z ddp quit (Quit: ddp) 2017-08-29T20:37:05Z gwatt: yes, that srfi 2017-08-29T20:38:39Z jcowan: my forthcoming replacement for sxml will be using accumulators 2017-08-29T20:41:13Z daviid joined #scheme 2017-08-29T20:46:03Z ddp joined #scheme 2017-08-29T20:50:49Z cemerick quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-08-29T20:57:26Z ddp quit (Quit: ddp) 2017-08-29T20:58:05Z ddp joined #scheme 2017-08-29T20:58:17Z skeuomorf quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-08-29T21:01:54Z civodul joined #scheme 2017-08-29T21:01:59Z excelsior quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-08-29T21:08:22Z mlaine joined #scheme 2017-08-29T21:08:41Z emacsomancer joined #scheme 2017-08-29T21:11:41Z ddp quit (Quit: ddp) 2017-08-29T21:17:15Z ddp joined #scheme 2017-08-29T21:21:26Z pilne joined #scheme 2017-08-29T21:25:45Z ddp quit (Quit: ddp) 2017-08-29T21:26:17Z vjacob joined #scheme 2017-08-29T21:32:18Z ohama quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-08-29T21:33:06Z justinethier quit (Quit: Page closed) 2017-08-29T21:41:28Z ddp joined #scheme 2017-08-29T21:42:49Z kvda joined #scheme 2017-08-29T21:43:48Z mlaine left #scheme 2017-08-29T21:43:50Z mlaine joined #scheme 2017-08-29T21:51:06Z ddp quit (Quit: ddp) 2017-08-29T21:59:06Z vjacob quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-08-29T22:04:25Z Kyo91_ quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2017-08-29T22:11:08Z vjacob joined #scheme 2017-08-29T22:30:34Z vicenteH quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-08-29T22:36:29Z Kyo91_ joined #scheme 2017-08-29T22:41:23Z Kyo91_ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2017-08-29T22:51:10Z ohama joined #scheme 2017-08-29T22:53:20Z dbmikus quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.9) 2017-08-29T22:53:48Z Menche quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-08-29T23:04:29Z daviid quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-08-29T23:04:31Z Kyo91_ joined #scheme 2017-08-29T23:04:37Z sleffy joined #scheme 2017-08-29T23:08:29Z civodul quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 25.2.1)) 2017-08-29T23:10:28Z Steverman quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.9) 2017-08-29T23:15:37Z brendyn joined #scheme 2017-08-29T23:20:54Z kvda quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. 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2017-08-30T16:33:08Z python476: or is it unnecessary, if ports are buffered 2017-08-30T16:33:21Z python476: all this to read socket (http html) 2017-08-30T16:37:02Z hazyPurple joined #scheme 2017-08-30T16:46:46Z hazyPurple quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-08-30T16:49:25Z takitus quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-08-30T16:51:41Z cemerick quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-08-30T16:58:28Z badkins joined #scheme 2017-08-30T17:00:04Z hazyPurple joined #scheme 2017-08-30T17:13:44Z hazyPurple quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-08-30T17:13:51Z python476 quit (Quit: Page closed) 2017-08-30T17:13:54Z cemerick joined #scheme 2017-08-30T17:16:42Z gwatt: python476: does scheme48 have the get-string-n/get-bytevector-n functions? 2017-08-30T17:19:12Z sleffy joined #scheme 2017-08-30T17:23:34Z ertes joined #scheme 2017-08-30T17:26:52Z hazyPurple joined #scheme 2017-08-30T17:34:23Z Riastradh joined #scheme 2017-08-30T17:37:46Z vicenteH quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2017-08-30T17:46:16Z Riastradh quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-08-30T17:48:35Z smazga joined #scheme 2017-08-30T17:54:33Z alezost joined #scheme 2017-08-30T17:55:49Z pie_ joined #scheme 2017-08-30T17:58:41Z skeuomorf quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-08-30T17:58:59Z marvin2 joined #scheme 2017-08-30T18:11:44Z pie_ quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-08-30T18:12:27Z pie_ joined #scheme 2017-08-30T18:12:30Z sethalves joined #scheme 2017-08-30T18:16:36Z hazyPurple quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2017-08-30T18:28:46Z hazyPurple joined #scheme 2017-08-30T18:41:11Z cemerick quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-08-30T18:41:38Z cemerick joined #scheme 2017-08-30T18:42:27Z pilne joined #scheme 2017-08-30T18:53:25Z Riastradh joined #scheme 2017-08-30T19:08:18Z sleffy quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-08-30T19:19:37Z vjacob quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-08-30T19:23:33Z tessier joined #scheme 2017-08-30T19:23:33Z tessier quit (Changing host) 2017-08-30T19:23:33Z tessier joined #scheme 2017-08-30T19:30:03Z dustyweb quit (Changing host) 2017-08-30T19:30:03Z dustyweb joined #scheme 2017-08-30T19:32:09Z vjacob joined #scheme 2017-08-30T19:35:35Z ecraven: how do I get a subsequence of a bytevector? 2017-08-30T19:37:36Z gwatt: subsequences allow for skips, right? 2017-08-30T19:37:57Z gwatt: so #vu8(1 3 5) is a subsequence of #vu8(1 2 3 4 5) ? 2017-08-30T19:38:57Z ecraven: no, I want #vu8(2 3 4) given #vu8(1 2 3 4 5) 2017-08-30T19:39:09Z ecraven: from index 1 until index 4, or from index 1 length 3 elements 2017-08-30T19:39:25Z ecraven: like substring, but for bytevectors 2017-08-30T19:39:41Z jmd quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-08-30T19:39:43Z jao quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-08-30T19:40:26Z gwatt: http://scheme.com/tspl4/objects.html#./objects:s247 ? 2017-08-30T19:41:12Z ecraven: ok, so that's really the only way :-/ sometimes I wish Scheme were a bit less minimalistic 2017-08-30T19:41:30Z ecraven: like bytevector-copy just taking two optional index arguments 2017-08-30T19:41:38Z gwatt: yeah, that would be nice 2017-08-30T19:41:46Z ecraven: jcowan: no chance of changing that? :D 2017-08-30T19:42:05Z sleffy joined #scheme 2017-08-30T19:42:58Z jcowan: r7rs-large will have things like subu8vector 2017-08-30T19:43:04Z ecraven: great, thanks 2017-08-30T19:43:10Z jcowan: (if they vote the way I want, that is!) 2017-08-30T19:44:24Z jao joined #scheme 2017-08-30T19:46:17Z hazyPurple quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-08-30T19:47:06Z ecraven: these are the times when I ponder ELT from CL 2017-08-30T19:53:11Z sleffy quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-08-30T19:55:34Z sleffy joined #scheme 2017-08-30T19:59:20Z hazyPurple joined #scheme 2017-08-30T20:01:48Z vjacob quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-08-30T20:02:13Z Kyo91_ quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-08-30T20:04:17Z daviid joined #scheme 2017-08-30T20:12:12Z Kyo91_ joined #scheme 2017-08-30T20:12:48Z pygospa joined #scheme 2017-08-30T20:15:11Z vjacob joined #scheme 2017-08-30T20:25:51Z badkins quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2017-08-30T20:29:57Z alezost quit (Quit: I live in GuixSD and Emacs ) 2017-08-30T20:32:28Z vicenteH joined #scheme 2017-08-30T20:40:30Z civodul joined #scheme 2017-08-30T20:43:40Z Khisanth quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-08-30T20:47:48Z cmatei quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-08-30T20:48:08Z Khisanth joined #scheme 2017-08-30T20:48:38Z chrisa__ joined #scheme 2017-08-30T20:50:57Z jcowan: ecraven: SRFI 123 2017-08-30T20:52:10Z ecraven: jcowan: thanks, never knew about that ;) 2017-08-30T20:52:14Z chrisa_ quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2017-08-30T20:53:20Z edgar-rft joined #scheme 2017-08-30T20:53:55Z badkins joined #scheme 2017-08-30T21:06:57Z cmaloney: Question: why does (*) return 1? 2017-08-30T21:07:15Z cmaloney: I sort of understand why (+) returns 0, but (*) is throwing me for a turn 2017-08-30T21:08:11Z Kyo91_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-08-30T21:08:19Z cmaloney: (or is it that 1 is passed along because multiplying 1 doesn't cause issues) 2017-08-30T21:08:20Z ecraven: identity element for multiplication 2017-08-30T21:08:32Z ecraven: just as 0 is the identity element for addition 2017-08-30T21:08:38Z cmaloney: Ah, that makes sense. Thanks. :) 2017-08-30T21:13:41Z lambda-11235 joined #scheme 2017-08-30T21:20:38Z cmatei joined #scheme 2017-08-30T21:28:09Z hazyPurple quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-08-30T21:31:11Z pierpa joined #scheme 2017-08-30T21:36:52Z cemerick quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-08-30T21:41:49Z pjb` joined #scheme 2017-08-30T21:42:50Z pjb quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2017-08-30T21:43:00Z PinealGlandOptic quit (Quit: leaving) 2017-08-30T21:45:18Z civodul quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 25.2.1)) 2017-08-30T21:47:01Z ski: cmaloney : there's a generalized associative law : if you have a list of lists of numbers, then taking the product of the numbers in each list, then taking the product of the list of the resulting products, will be equal to concatenating all the lists into a single list of numbers, and taking the product of that 2017-08-30T21:47:13Z ski: rudybot: eval (apply * (map (lambda (numbers) (apply * numbers)) (list (list) (list 1) (list 2 3) (list 4 5 6)))) 2017-08-30T21:47:13Z rudybot: ski: ; Value: 720 2017-08-30T21:47:22Z ski: rudybot: eval (apply * (apply append (list (list) (list 1) (list 2 3) (list 4 5 6)))) 2017-08-30T21:47:22Z rudybot: ski: ; Value: 720 2017-08-30T21:48:16Z ski: (iow, it doesn't matter if you group a list of numbers in some way into subgroups, and take the products of those, then the product of those, or else refrain from grouping, taking the product directly) 2017-08-30T21:49:09Z ski: now, an empty group (list) can be inserted anywhere. so the product of that ought to be something, such that if you multiply with it, there's no difference. iow `1', the neutral element of multiplication 2017-08-30T21:49:40Z justinethier quit (Quit: Page closed) 2017-08-30T21:52:33Z ski: (a companion law is that the product of a singleton list containing a number, is just that number. using this one can derive that one can "splice" the factors in one product, which itself is a factor in a larger product, into that larger product. e.g. `(* a b (* c d e) f)' is equal to `(* a b c d e f)'. the usual associative law that `(* a (* b c))' is equal to (* (* a b) c)' is a special case of this) 2017-08-30T21:52:51Z ecraven quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-08-30T21:59:06Z ecraven joined #scheme 2017-08-30T21:59:30Z Kyo91_ joined #scheme 2017-08-30T22:04:18Z Kyo91_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-08-30T22:09:47Z pjb` quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2017-08-30T22:12:23Z vjacob quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-08-30T22:23:42Z pie_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-08-30T22:23:57Z pie_ joined #scheme 2017-08-30T22:27:58Z vjacob joined #scheme 2017-08-30T22:40:07Z BitPuffin|osx quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-08-30T22:48:11Z dbmikus quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-08-30T22:53:23Z NingaLeaf joined #scheme 2017-08-30T23:04:45Z pjb` joined #scheme 2017-08-30T23:05:35Z NingaLeaf quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. 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I want to make programs in scheme on my mac. 2017-08-31T16:01:10Z lisper: the guy responsible for the css at http://community.schemewiki.org/?scheme-faq-general should reconsider his profession 2017-08-31T16:01:40Z lisper: the headings are headache inducing 2017-08-31T16:02:28Z ecraven: lisper: what kind of programs? 2017-08-31T16:04:08Z lisper: ecraven: all sorts of parsing, report production 2017-08-31T16:05:17Z ecraven: not sure what runs on a mac, but maybe look into guile, chicken and racket (no particular order)? those have lots of libraries 2017-08-31T16:08:15Z jmd: lisper: I think that people are trying to point out that the question "What is the best " has no meaningful answer. 2017-08-31T16:09:18Z ecraven: I'd suggest just starting with whatever scheme you want, if you hit a wall, it isn't too hard to switch, most are rather similar in large parts 2017-08-31T16:10:05Z jcowan: Choosing a Scheme is choosing a community (in the case of Stalin, an antisocial one) 2017-08-31T16:10:39Z jcowan: https://wingolog.org/archives/2013/01/07/an-opinionated-guide-to-scheme-implementations 2017-08-31T16:10:47Z jcowan: including the comments 2017-08-31T16:11:13Z lisper: jmd: "what is best " often has meaningful answers 2017-08-31T16:11:34Z ecraven: lisper: speed-wise, you want chez or stalin. library-wise, probably chicken or racket 2017-08-31T16:11:40Z ecraven: so those are mutually exclusive :P 2017-08-31T16:11:42Z lisper: thanks 2017-08-31T16:11:52Z jcowan: also https://stackoverflow.com/questions/7167760/help-me-choose-a-suitable-scheme-implementation 2017-08-31T16:11:54Z lisper: whats up with the commie references? :D 2017-08-31T16:12:03Z jcowan: "Stalin optimizes your code, brutally." 2017-08-31T16:12:31Z lisper: oh, I though it killed the competing impl's :D 2017-08-31T16:12:56Z lisper: i don't like the racket UI, but i guess there's a terminal repl available 2017-08-31T16:13:48Z ecraven: emacs + geiser works for some schemes 2017-08-31T16:14:32Z jcowan: Scheme came from a tradition of AI languages including Planner and Conniver, but Schemer (as it was originally called) isn't much like them. 2017-08-31T16:14:54Z jcowan: The final r was dropped to fit into a 6-character restriction on early OSes 2017-08-31T16:15:24Z lisper: ecraven: alas, i'm a vim'er 2017-08-31T16:15:48Z ecraven: well, there's some vim mode too 2017-08-31T16:15:59Z ecraven: jcowan: good thing, I prefer Scheme to Schemer ;) 2017-08-31T16:16:05Z lisper: neovim in emacs is a thing tho' 2017-08-31T16:16:43Z jcowan: I myself use ex, but I'm weird even for a Schemer 2017-08-31T16:16:59Z lisper: done some common lisp lately... made me feel dirty 2017-08-31T16:17:10Z lisper: powerful as hell, but... what a mess 2017-08-31T16:17:28Z lisper: so trying scheme 2017-08-31T16:17:40Z lisper: which seems closer to what lisp is supposed to be 2017-08-31T16:18:02Z Steverman quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-08-31T16:18:05Z lisper: i have to make my OCD happy too 2017-08-31T16:20:45Z ecraven: jcowan: have you planned an introspection module for r7rs-large? 2017-08-31T16:21:01Z ecraven: access param lists, exported functions, existing libraries, stuff like that? 2017-08-31T16:22:06Z wasamasa: I've tried out step0 for MAL with the common r7rs implementations: http://ix.io/zw3/scm 2017-08-31T16:22:12Z wasamasa: anything I've missed out on? 2017-08-31T16:22:26Z wasamasa: also, if you know how to turn the failures into successes, I'm all ears 2017-08-31T16:30:33Z jcowan: ecraven: No, but I'm open to it 2017-08-31T16:30:42Z jcowan: there are only a few things I am not open to, and that is one of them 2017-08-31T16:30:57Z jcowan: in particular, I think arity inspection and procedure property lists would be *excellent* 2017-08-31T16:31:27Z jcowan: the first is on the list, the second currently is not 2017-08-31T16:33:36Z ecraven: "there are only a few things I am not open to, and that is one of them" so you're not open to that idea? 2017-08-31T16:33:55Z jcowan: s/one of them/not one of them 2017-08-31T16:33:56Z vjacob quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-08-31T16:33:58Z ecraven: things like apropos, list exported bindings of a library, get info about what *kind* of binding it is, that would be very nice to have 2017-08-31T16:34:06Z ecraven: what are you not open to :P just out of interest? 2017-08-31T16:34:09Z ecraven: CLOS! 2017-08-31T16:34:12Z jcowan: my poor monkey brain got overloaded with negation 2017-08-31T16:34:21Z jcowan: Yes, object systems is the biggie and FFI is another 2017-08-31T16:34:21Z Riastradh: Procedure properties break equational reasoning with the beta rule... 2017-08-31T16:34:37Z jcowan: Riastradh: So they do 2017-08-31T16:34:49Z jcowan: But so does procedure identity, and R7RS has that already 2017-08-31T16:36:35Z lisper: ain't got no anti nothing 2017-08-31T16:36:53Z ecraven: Riastradh: I'm just saying, it would be nice to have that for things like REPLs and debuggers 2017-08-31T16:37:06Z jcowan: or in Latin, Multiplex negatio ferblondjiat 2017-08-31T16:37:30Z lisper: book recommandations for an aspiring schemer? 2017-08-31T16:37:41Z ecraven: see topic 2017-08-31T16:37:57Z ecraven: sicp, htdp, tspl, and everything on readscheme 2017-08-31T16:38:18Z lisper: thanks 2017-08-31T16:38:27Z ecraven: jcowan: I think it's prudent not to touch FFI/OO, they are too contentious from what I've seen and read so far 2017-08-31T16:38:33Z jcowan: ecraven: I forgot, I do have a proposal for *global* environment reflection at http://trac.sacrideo.us/wg/wiki/MutableEnvironmentsCurtisCowan 2017-08-31T16:38:45Z francogrex joined #scheme 2017-08-31T16:38:59Z francogrex: hi anyone using jscheme? 2017-08-31T16:39:17Z jcowan: lexical environment reflection is probably too much, as compilers typically compile it away 2017-08-31T16:39:18Z ecraven: jcowan: that goes even further than what I was suggesting, I was thinking of introspection/reflection only, no mutation 2017-08-31T16:39:34Z ecraven: jcowan: well, still no reason no to support it ;) 2017-08-31T16:39:46Z ecraven: you still want it for proper debugging anyway 2017-08-31T16:40:36Z lisper: in scheme, is nil considered a data type or just a value? 2017-08-31T16:41:36Z jcowan: Scheme does not have nil, it has false and the empty list, written #f and () 2017-08-31T16:41:38Z pie_ joined #scheme 2017-08-31T16:41:44Z lisper: oh really 2017-08-31T16:42:02Z jcowan: Scheme doesn't have an explicit type system either, only type predicates like pair? and null? and boolean?. 2017-08-31T16:42:27Z lisper: sure, but there are types 2017-08-31T16:44:01Z lisper: so is () falsy like #f? 2017-08-31T16:44:53Z lisper: seems to 2017-08-31T16:45:10Z ijp joined #scheme 2017-08-31T16:45:19Z lisper: hm, no, any list is #f according to boolean? 2017-08-31T16:45:47Z jcowan: Everything is truthy except #f. 2017-08-31T16:45:52Z lisper: i see 2017-08-31T16:46:03Z ijp: the only booleans are #t and #f 2017-08-31T16:46:04Z jcowan: But it is an error to pass anything but #t and #f to boolean?. 2017-08-31T16:46:18Z lisper: (boolean? '()) gives #f in racket 2017-08-31T16:46:25Z ijp: jcowan: that would make no sense 2017-08-31T16:46:26Z vjacob joined #scheme 2017-08-31T16:46:43Z jcowan: Oh, yes, sorry, brain fart. 2017-08-31T16:46:50Z lisper: dat smell 2017-08-31T16:46:57Z jcowan: You can pass any object to boolean?, and get #t if it is #t or #f, and #f otherwise 2017-08-31T16:47:08Z ijp: lisper: what issue are you trying to hint at? 2017-08-31T16:47:08Z jcowan: similarly for integer?, etc. 2017-08-31T16:47:17Z lisper: i see 2017-08-31T16:47:30Z lisper: ijp: i have no idea what i'm talking about, basically 2017-08-31T16:47:47Z francogrex quit (Quit: Bye) 2017-08-31T16:48:17Z lisper: ijp: trying to wrap my head around the absence of nil/null 2017-08-31T16:48:41Z jcowan: It's split into two roles, the empty list (which is truthy) and the boolean false object (which is falsy). 2017-08-31T16:48:57Z jcowan: in Scheme these are separate objects 2017-08-31T16:49:09Z jcowan: they are not eq? or even eqv?. 2017-08-31T16:49:16Z lisper: but how do I express a list of things where the second one is yet to be determined (nil in other langs) 2017-08-31T16:49:27Z lisper: as building recursive structures and whatnot 2017-08-31T16:50:05Z jcowan: Use anything you want, #f or () or (string-copy "the-bogus-object) 2017-08-31T16:50:10Z jcowan: s/object/object" 2017-08-31T16:50:12Z lisper: oh my 2017-08-31T16:50:26Z lisper: #f and () can clearly be valid values in generic structures 2017-08-31T16:50:35Z lisper: so i basically have to make up sentinels per use-case 2017-08-31T16:51:21Z jcowan: Yes. The eof-object is a sentinel for I/O, for example; it has no standard representation. 2017-08-31T16:51:23Z pie_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-08-31T16:51:27Z lisper: i'm not loving it 2017-08-31T16:51:41Z pie_ joined #scheme 2017-08-31T16:51:55Z lisper quit (Quit: out) 2017-08-31T16:51:56Z jcowan: The generators library uses eof-object as "end of stream" 2017-08-31T16:51:59Z jcowan: nothing's perfect here 2017-08-31T16:52:17Z jcowan: if you *really* need to be able to represent *any* object, then you can raise an exception 2017-08-31T16:52:25Z jcowan: as in Python 2017-08-31T16:52:29Z jcowan: but that's rarely necessary 2017-08-31T16:52:50Z wasamasa: the troll is gone 2017-08-31T16:54:49Z jcowan: I don't think those were trollish questions, though I haven't seen him before 2017-08-31T16:56:48Z wasamasa: I recall a tiresome conversation many weeks ago where they argued for the inclusion of a spell checker into a compiler 2017-08-31T16:57:51Z ijp: some compilers do something like that for variable names that are unbound / wrong type 2017-08-31T16:58:15Z wasamasa: this was about symbols as function arguments 2017-08-31T16:58:35Z wasamasa: eventually we figured out they were after r6rs-style enums 2017-08-31T17:02:14Z cemerick joined #scheme 2017-08-31T17:05:48Z pie_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-08-31T17:05:57Z pie__ joined #scheme 2017-08-31T17:07:56Z lambda-11235 quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.9) 2017-08-31T17:07:57Z jmd: Hey! Perhaps the compiler should also have an integral trouser press - and perhaps a youghurt maker too. 2017-08-31T17:09:13Z ijp: sounds great, let's get a patent 2017-08-31T17:15:54Z ecraven: hm.. could a compiler optimize predicate-based dispatch as well as type-based? for the relevant cases? 2017-08-31T17:16:12Z aeth quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-08-31T17:16:40Z aeth joined #scheme 2017-08-31T17:17:22Z ecraven: relevant meaning predicates like number? or point?, not even? or prime? 2017-08-31T17:22:33Z sleffy joined #scheme 2017-08-31T17:30:42Z sethalves joined #scheme 2017-08-31T17:32:21Z gwatt: Probably depends on the representation of types 2017-08-31T17:32:22Z pie__ quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-08-31T17:32:48Z Steverman joined #scheme 2017-08-31T17:38:16Z Kyo91_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-08-31T17:40:56Z DGASAU quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-08-31T17:44:21Z kang0 joined #scheme 2017-08-31T17:49:46Z Kyo91_ joined #scheme 2017-08-31T17:51:36Z DGASAU joined #scheme 2017-08-31T17:56:47Z lritter_ quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-08-31T17:59:02Z kang0: Which are other wonderful books like sicp and htdp 2017-08-31T18:00:52Z amz3` joined #scheme 2017-08-31T18:02:10Z alezost joined #scheme 2017-08-31T18:03:34Z Kyo91_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-08-31T18:03:47Z gwatt: Some people like "The {Little,Reasoned,Seasoned} Schemer" books 2017-08-31T18:12:39Z amz3`: don't recommend reasoner schemer it's old 2017-08-31T18:13:15Z amz3`: I mean to say to reasoned schemer is not up to date 2017-08-31T18:13:27Z amz3`: but the style of writing is very good 2017-08-31T18:13:38Z amz3`: so prolly little schemer is very nice too 2017-08-31T18:14:01Z ijp: er, nothing in either book is actually obsolete 2017-08-31T18:15:19Z amz3`: the version of reasoned schemer for microkanren version of kanren is not ready, that's all I know 2017-08-31T18:15:47Z amz3`: or maybe I mis-understood webyrd 2017-08-31T18:16:42Z ijp: on a related note, I didn't really enjoy the little prover. The interface they chose for the prover, while simple, is a chore to use 2017-08-31T18:19:52Z amz3`: I did not read that one 2017-08-31T18:20:16Z amz3`: I am wondering whether macro implementation requires an interpreter in general when writing a scheme compiler 2017-08-31T18:20:40Z qu1j0t3 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-08-31T18:20:47Z amz3`: I mean to aks whether the compiler requires a scheme interpreter? 2017-08-31T18:20:56Z brendyn quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-08-31T18:21:10Z gwatt: no? 2017-08-31T18:21:57Z amz3`: How do you "interpret" compile time macros then? 2017-08-31T18:22:59Z lritter joined #scheme 2017-08-31T18:23:59Z ijp: (define interpret (compose run compile)) 2017-08-31T18:24:06Z LeoNerd quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-08-31T18:24:18Z LeoNerd joined #scheme 2017-08-31T18:25:45Z gwatt: well, ok. Your macro expander may need to evaluate scheme code. 2017-08-31T18:25:47Z ijp: this is roughly what guile does when executing code at the repl 2017-08-31T18:28:07Z LeoNerd quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-08-31T18:28:19Z LeoNerd joined #scheme 2017-08-31T18:32:09Z LeoNerd quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-08-31T18:32:21Z LeoNerd joined #scheme 2017-08-31T18:33:48Z amz3`: yes, you can compile the macro and execute it in the environment of the scheme expression 2017-08-31T18:33:59Z qu1j0t3 joined #scheme 2017-08-31T18:35:43Z ecraven: why not just compile everything on the fly? no need for interpretation 2017-08-31T18:38:40Z amz3`: idk 2017-08-31T18:42:00Z jmd: there was an interesting talk at GHM last week about optimal intepreters for virtual machines. 2017-08-31T18:46:12Z pjb: I do recommend old (and very old) books. 2017-08-31T18:51:22Z qu1j0t3: there's also the Truffle/Graal paper http://chrisseaton.com/rubytruffle/pldi17-truffle/pldi17-truffle.pdf 2017-08-31T18:56:27Z kang0: (kang0) . (kang0) (kang0) (mfiano) Install Slime, sbcl, quicklisp, paredit (or equivalent), and hack away 2017-08-31T18:56:35Z kang0: Can you explain me what's this 2017-08-31T18:56:42Z wasamasa: not scheme-related 2017-08-31T18:57:14Z dustyweb is now known as paroneayea 2017-08-31T18:57:25Z paroneayea is now known as dustyweb 2017-08-31T18:58:50Z kang0: Any website För online elisp? 2017-08-31T19:03:07Z pjb: not scheme-related 2017-08-31T19:03:36Z pjb: kang0: try ##lisp for generic lisp discussion. #emacs for emacs and emacs lisp stuff. 2017-08-31T19:03:50Z kang0: Ok 2017-08-31T19:11:02Z akkad: is there a default system exec command in any of the srfis? 2017-08-31T19:11:09Z cemerick quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-08-31T19:11:41Z akkad: ahh system 2017-08-31T19:12:11Z cemerick joined #scheme 2017-08-31T19:14:56Z ertes joined #scheme 2017-08-31T19:25:45Z tessier quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-08-31T19:34:31Z pie_ joined #scheme 2017-08-31T19:53:16Z daviid joined #scheme 2017-08-31T19:54:24Z jonaslund joined #scheme 2017-08-31T19:54:45Z sethalves quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-08-31T19:58:41Z alezost quit (Quit: I live in GuixSD and Emacs ) 2017-08-31T19:59:51Z mistnim joined #scheme 2017-08-31T20:08:52Z LeoNerd quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-08-31T20:09:02Z LeoNerd joined #scheme 2017-08-31T20:09:25Z jmd quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-08-31T20:21:21Z ecraven: jcowan: you mentioned predicate dispatch a few times, any ideas on how to sort the applicable methods 2017-08-31T20:21:30Z ecraven: or is it an error if more than one method is applicable? 2017-08-31T20:22:42Z plugd joined #scheme 2017-08-31T20:23:15Z jcowan: Unclear as yet 2017-08-31T20:23:27Z plugd quit (Client Quit) 2017-08-31T20:23:39Z jcowan: some ideas: a procedure that declares globally (across all generic functions) that even? should be checked before integer?. 2017-08-31T20:23:51Z ecraven: I haven't even been able to find good ideas on how to sort them, except for the filtered methods proposal, which only works by enumerating all predicates :-/ 2017-08-31T20:23:52Z jcowan: 2) whatever is declared last wins 2017-08-31T20:24:01Z akkad: is there a type-of in scheme? 2017-08-31T20:24:06Z jcowan: akkad: No 2017-08-31T20:24:19Z akkad: oh right I had to write one. 2017-08-31T20:24:21Z ecraven: jcowan: 2) seems impractical, given that you might not know exactly in which order stuff might be evaluated :-/ 2017-08-31T20:24:26Z akkad: must stop taking so much time off 2017-08-31T20:24:30Z jcowan: 3) as you say, an error if more than one method is applicable 2017-08-31T20:24:48Z ecraven: 1) seems problematic too, as it might well be necessary to have different order for different generic functions 2017-08-31T20:24:58Z ecraven: 3) is not an option, as you would lose call-next-method :-/ 2017-08-31T20:25:04Z ecraven: so this is still an open question ;) 2017-08-31T20:25:51Z jcowan: I am not even clear that call-next-method is a good idea 2017-08-31T20:26:48Z jcowan: Another open question is whether to use left-to-right argument disambiguation, or to make it an error to have methods where it is unclear which precedes what 2017-08-31T20:27:13Z civodul joined #scheme 2017-08-31T20:27:24Z jcowan: i.e. if foo? is larger than bar?, then having both a (foo? bar?) and a (bar? foo?) method is an error 2017-08-31T20:34:07Z sleffy quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-08-31T20:34:42Z jcowan: I kinda don't like to put left-to-rightness into Scheme 2017-08-31T20:37:26Z Riastradh: jcowan: You're only saying that because you have trouble telling left from right! 2017-08-31T20:38:04Z ecraven: jcowan: I'd agree on that 2017-08-31T20:38:11Z ecraven: but I think call-next-method can be very useful 2017-08-31T20:38:31Z ecraven: for example, if the predicates are actually just a class hierarchy 2017-08-31T20:38:36Z jcowan: Riastradh: Very true, and I can't tell east from west either 2017-08-31T20:39:07Z ecraven: just from mulling it over for a few minutes, I'd tend to say the least bad option is specifying a predicate order for a specific GF if needed 2017-08-31T20:39:38Z jcowan: The problem with such "something always happens" systems is that the thing that happens may not be the right thing 2017-08-31T20:39:40Z ecraven: so it is an error if multiple methods are applicable, unless a specific order is given with the GF, in which case that order is used to sort them 2017-08-31T20:39:47Z Riastradh: Therefore, I propose that we fix the evaluation order of Scheme procedure applications to be north-to-south in R8RS. 2017-08-31T20:40:02Z jcowan: Riastradh: In that case we have to start writing code in Mongolian or Ogham 2017-08-31T20:40:08Z ecraven: Riastradh: why not use lexicographical ordering based on parameter name? 2017-08-31T20:40:17Z Riastradh: jcowan: Do you usually just think of the coast you live on as the right coast, in contrast to the wrong one where San Francisco lives? 2017-08-31T20:40:24Z ecraven: the old mongolian letters are written north-to-south (or top-down) 2017-08-31T20:40:29Z Riastradh: ecraven: Well, we would need named parameters for that. 2017-08-31T20:40:31Z kang0 left #scheme 2017-08-31T20:40:36Z jcowan: No, I think of it as the Eastern Seaboard, actually 2017-08-31T20:40:46Z ecraven: Riastradh: just base them on the argument names in the function definition 2017-08-31T20:40:48Z jcowan: as opposed to the West Coast, so there is redundancy here 2017-08-31T20:41:18Z jcowan: IMO if you have more than two parameters they should have names, and if any have names, they should all have names. 2017-08-31T20:41:19Z ecraven: jcowan: did you document anything about the predicate dispatch thing yet? 2017-08-31T20:41:21Z Riastradh: I don't mean top-to-bottom. I mean north-to-south. Absolute positioning. I think jcowan told me a story once about people who tell stories with absolute positioning for their gesticulatoins, but it could have been someone else. 2017-08-31T20:41:34Z jcowan: It might well have been me. 2017-08-31T20:41:44Z jcowan: Yes, there are such people, notably in NW Australia 2017-08-31T20:41:53Z jcowan: "There is an ant crawling on your north foot." 2017-08-31T20:42:16Z Riastradh: Top-left Australia, you must mean. 2017-08-31T20:42:45Z ecraven: Riastradh: depends on the map, I've seen many south-up maps recently 2017-08-31T20:42:54Z jcowan: Especially in Australia, yes 2017-08-31T20:43:28Z jcowan: http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_IBVPgalgRAk/S89zGrafJAI/AAAAAAAABFE/Dsj8ag-lCHw/s1600/Upsidedown+Map+Of+The+World--Optimized.JPG 2017-08-31T20:43:29Z Riastradh: ecraven: That's only because you're looking at the maps in Australia from Europe. If you travel to Australia to look at them they'll be right-side up again. 2017-08-31T20:43:29Z rudybot: http://teensy.info/7oBmOiN3vZ 2017-08-31T20:44:19Z jcowan: Besides, it is seriously stupid to stand on Little Diomede Island and when asked "Where is Russia"? point the long way around the globe instead of the short way to Big Diomede Island 2017-08-31T20:44:21Z Riastradh: Same reason geysers rotate counterclockwise in Australia when you flush your clockwise toilet in Europe. 2017-08-31T20:45:54Z niklasl quit (Quit: Nettalk6 - www.ntalk.de) 2017-08-31T20:46:32Z jcowan: Here in the New World my toilet is quite symmetrical 2017-08-31T20:46:49Z jcowan: the water rises, then sinks 2017-08-31T20:46:55Z jcowan: often assisted by a plunger 2017-08-31T20:47:23Z tessier joined #scheme 2017-08-31T20:47:23Z tessier quit (Changing host) 2017-08-31T20:47:23Z tessier joined #scheme 2017-08-31T20:49:26Z Riastradh: jcowan: Must be tough living in a third-world country like NYC. I hear the trains are so crowded people stack each other up and climb on the roofs to get where they need to go. 2017-08-31T20:50:16Z mistnim quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-08-31T20:50:20Z jcowan: In New Jersey, where I come from, the mosquitoes are so large that a good many of them weigh a pound, and they sit on the leaves and bark when people go by. 2017-08-31T20:50:21Z niklasl joined #scheme 2017-08-31T20:56:31Z sleffy joined #scheme 2017-08-31T21:02:25Z cemerick quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-08-31T21:02:34Z cemerick joined #scheme 2017-08-31T21:11:11Z avfonarev joined #scheme 2017-08-31T21:12:39Z pierpa joined #scheme 2017-08-31T21:18:19Z avfonarev: Hello. I'm coming from haskell and wanted to play with a lisp family language for a change. What is the best modern compiler/interpreter out there that I could run under mac os? 2017-08-31T21:20:06Z sleffy quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-08-31T21:24:03Z wasamasa: chez 2017-08-31T21:40:37Z cemerick quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-08-31T21:42:57Z jcowan quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-08-31T21:47:01Z pie__ joined #scheme 2017-08-31T21:48:00Z pie_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-08-31T21:48:07Z dbmikus quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.9) 2017-08-31T21:49:44Z profan: avfonarev: racket might be of interest 2017-08-31T21:51:35Z jonaslund quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-08-31T21:54:36Z rigsby joined #scheme 2017-08-31T22:03:02Z amz3` quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-08-31T22:09:50Z avfonarev: wasamasa: thanks! 2017-08-31T22:13:21Z MrBismuth joined #scheme 2017-08-31T22:16:09Z MrBusiness quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-08-31T22:19:31Z jcowan joined #scheme 2017-08-31T22:25:54Z avfonarev quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-08-31T22:44:29Z civodul quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 25.2.1)) 2017-08-31T22:47:11Z LeoNerd quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-08-31T22:47:21Z LeoNerd joined #scheme 2017-08-31T22:53:58Z daviid quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-08-31T23:01:35Z wigust joined #scheme 2017-08-31T23:11:15Z edgar-rft quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-08-31T23:13:24Z smazga quit (Quit: leaving) 2017-08-31T23:15:45Z vicenteH quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-08-31T23:18:31Z edgar-rft joined #scheme 2017-08-31T23:41:46Z daviid joined #scheme 2017-08-31T23:44:03Z lambda-11235 joined #scheme 2017-08-31T23:47:49Z niklasl quit (Quit: Nettalk6 - www.ntalk.de) 2017-08-31T23:49:44Z niklasl joined #scheme 2017-08-31T23:50:19Z ddp joined #scheme 2017-08-31T23:54:32Z ddp quit (Client Quit) 2017-08-31T23:54:43Z pjb quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)