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2017-07-01T16:47:11Z noethics: looks like some standard academic font but i don't know what it is 2017-07-01T16:49:40Z wasamasa: I wonder whether the kindle edition is properly digitized 2017-07-01T16:49:51Z ecraven: wasamasa: almost no book is properly digitized :-/ 2017-07-01T16:49:56Z ertes quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-01T16:50:16Z wasamasa: well, the only one I've bought was much better than the illegal versions 2017-07-01T16:50:22Z wasamasa: in my case, the fish book 2017-07-01T16:50:28Z ecraven: I've bought a few (non-technical 2017-07-01T16:50:34Z ecraven: which were full of OCR errors 2017-07-01T16:50:49Z wasamasa: I just don't want to plunk down 50€ just to realize it's a botched job 2017-07-01T16:50:58Z ecraven: that 2017-07-01T16:51:04Z ecraven: that is my main gripe with buying ebooks 2017-07-01T16:51:06Z wasamasa: noethics: maybe you do! 2017-07-01T16:51:13Z ecraven: I tend to look at them first, *then* buy them if they are worth it 2017-07-01T16:51:17Z wasamasa: noethics: didn't you write you want to pay for it? 2017-07-01T16:51:19Z bjz joined #scheme 2017-07-01T16:51:53Z noethics: wasamasa, you mean buy a kindle and see? 2017-07-01T16:52:02Z noethics: there's no way LiSP is digitized on kindles 2017-07-01T16:52:15Z wasamasa: noethics: there is no need to buy a kindle, but given your smarts I doubt you can pull that off 2017-07-01T16:52:22Z noethics: :P 2017-07-01T16:52:39Z noethics: mean :') 2017-07-01T16:53:16Z muelleme_ quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2017-07-01T16:53:27Z noethics: this is just so beautiful https://github.com/ilammy/lisp/tree/master/book-src 2017-07-01T16:53:38Z noethics: why do we have IP laws? 2017-07-01T16:54:12Z wasamasa: just think for a moment how this world would look like if there were no restrictions whatsoever on that 2017-07-01T16:54:28Z wasamasa: hint: all mobile CPUs are heavily IP encumbered 2017-07-01T16:55:08Z narendraj9 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-01T16:56:05Z noethics: wasamasa, could you elaborate 2017-07-01T16:56:25Z wasamasa: no, this is an exercise for you to put that brain of yours to use 2017-07-01T16:56:59Z noethics: well as it so happens i've lately been struggling with licensing morals ;D 2017-07-01T16:57:30Z noethics: like, i have always been in favor of bsd but gpl seems to make some sense to me now 2017-07-01T16:57:33Z wasamasa: one thing is for sure, there would be no dominance of intel and amd 2017-07-01T16:59:05Z raduom quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-01T17:00:31Z noethics: in a whole other world where IP laws were different in murika, maybe it would have a better social and economical system too :) 2017-07-01T17:00:39Z chi91 joined #scheme 2017-07-01T17:12:14Z ecraven: wasamasa: it is however an interesting thought-experiment if IP ran out after the author died.. 70 years and more is a *long* time 2017-07-01T17:29:36Z wigust joined #scheme 2017-07-01T17:31:42Z bjz quit (Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com) 2017-07-01T17:33:38Z jcowan joined #scheme 2017-07-01T17:33:39Z bjz joined #scheme 2017-07-01T17:36:23Z jcowan: Is there any known use for bottom-up breadth-first search? 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2017-07-02T07:53:29Z wasamasa: BW^-: yes, specifically the "Moon instructs a student" one 2017-07-02T07:53:36Z sleffy joined #scheme 2017-07-02T07:54:20Z BW^-: okay i see the joke thre 2017-07-02T07:54:20Z BW^-: rght 2017-07-02T07:54:24Z BW^-: wasamasa: and on a more serious note? 2017-07-02T07:54:35Z wasamasa: well, it's obvious, isn't it? 2017-07-02T07:55:02Z wasamasa: a ref-counted GC only frees objects where the reference count is zero 2017-07-02T07:55:15Z wasamasa: the reference count for a cyclical data structure is never zero 2017-07-02T07:56:03Z BW^-: wasamasa: ah. wait. 2017-07-02T07:56:19Z BW^-: wasamasa: please tell me first, in your refcounted GC, would your "+1" refcount be cascading down to children or not? 2017-07-02T07:56:33Z wasamasa: in the linked example, it's about a cons 2017-07-02T07:56:35Z BW^-: wasamasa: right, so if root A refs B, which refs C, which refs B, and you collect B 2017-07-02T07:56:51Z bjz joined #scheme 2017-07-02T07:57:13Z BW^-: wasamasa: in this case, A would cause B to get +1, B would case C to get +1, and C would *not* cause B to go +1 again because its refcounting stack would remember that it already +1:ed B already 2017-07-02T07:57:42Z BW^-: wasamasa: when you collect A, you'd do -1 on B automatically no, hence giving it 0, so it's time to collect?? 2017-07-02T07:57:47Z BW^-: wasamasa: i don't see the problem 2017-07-02T07:57:52Z wasamasa: you don't collect B because it is pointed to by C 2017-07-02T07:58:10Z wasamasa: and you don't collect C either because B points to it 2017-07-02T07:59:07Z BW^-: wasamasa: i'm not sure I agree here - C never +1:ed B in the first place, so B's refcount is 1 only meaning collecting A causes B to go to zero right? 2017-07-02T07:59:54Z wasamasa: the "cascading down to children" remark doesn't make any sense with regards to a cons, it's just a pair pointing to two things 2017-07-02T08:00:53Z wasamasa: now, I don't know anything about the specific implementation of reference counting, but it seems more than obvious to me that if you always know how many objects point to another one, cyclical data structures cannot possibly get garbage collected 2017-07-02T08:01:57Z BW^-: wasamasa: what i'm asking is if it not is trivial to detect the cyclical points at the time you +1 the refcounts, so at the time of collecting a cyclical structure, the cyclically referenced object will get 0 indeed and hence get collected 2017-07-02T08:02:32Z wasamasa: that must be a flawed implementation of reference counting then :P 2017-07-02T08:02:58Z wasamasa: no matter whether you use a stack or whatever else, if it doesn't reflect how many objects point to another one, it's crap 2017-07-02T08:03:40Z BW^-: lol 2017-07-02T08:03:57Z BW^-: wasamasa: no it would be a "refcounting implementation which includes a mitigation for cyclical references" i guess 2017-07-02T08:04:05Z BW^-: why would that be a leaky abstraction? 2017-07-02T08:04:20Z wasamasa: you asked about the traditional implementation 2017-07-02T08:04:46Z wasamasa: if you go on about one that doesn't include this defect, the explanations why the traditional implementation sucks do not apply 2017-07-02T08:05:54Z wasamasa: you do get at least that much, don't you? 2017-07-02T08:07:06Z ijp: if you are going to start doing a lot of work every time you +/- the count, then you lose at least part of the argument for refcounting in the first place 2017-07-02T08:07:24Z BW^-: wasamasa,ijp: i think the "ref-increase" algorihtm must trace all objects in its stack that it already +1:ed to 2017-07-02T08:07:39Z BW^-: ijp: what do you mean? 2017-07-02T08:08:22Z sleffy quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-07-02T08:08:31Z BW^-: so i guess a ref-increase algorithm must keep track of all objects it +1:ed to already, as to not +1 any object doubly.. 2017-07-02T08:08:42Z ijp: or rather, you are making the usual disadvantage even more pronounced 2017-07-02T08:08:48Z BW^-: if it did not, it would crash by an infinite recursion on any recursion 2017-07-02T08:09:54Z BW^-: ijp,wasamasa: i guess the normal problem in a refcounted system would be that *any cycle* would lead to an infinite recursion, making the whole thing blow up - refcounts would go to infinity 2017-07-02T08:10:46Z wasamasa: you've heard my opinion on that, this is a bug in your implementation of it, not the concept being faulty 2017-07-02T08:11:33Z ijp: BW^-: suppose I have your A,B,C, and I like new object D to C and free A, how does your algorithm handle it 2017-07-02T08:12:49Z ijp: if A frees B, it's broken, but if C doesn't add a count to B, then that is what is going to happen 2017-07-02T08:12:50Z BW^-: ijp: D linking to C would cause C to go +1, and then cause B to go +1, and then at C it remembers it already added to it already so ignore, so in this case you'd get A = 1, B = 2, C = 2, D = 1 2017-07-02T08:12:52Z BW^-: ..and then when removing A.. 2017-07-02T08:13:06Z BW^-: ijp: A would go -1, B would go -1 and C would go -1 2017-07-02T08:13:09Z BW^-: ijp: i guess it works? 2017-07-02T08:13:31Z BW^-: hmmm 2017-07-02T08:13:35Z BW^-: hmm 2017-07-02T08:13:58Z BW^-: wait, the refcount may only count "immediate references". 2017-07-02T08:14:02Z BW^-: is that a problem hm 2017-07-02T08:14:07Z BW^-: ijp: can you illustrate why it would break? 2017-07-02T08:16:34Z wildbartty_ joined #scheme 2017-07-02T08:16:39Z ijp: How on earth are you deciding when to +1, and when to not 2017-07-02T08:17:06Z ijp: ah, I see it 2017-07-02T08:17:30Z BW^-: ijp: maybe your example with adding D and removing A was illustrative - the only thing a refcount can mean, is "immediate references", and in this case a cyclical reference would indeed cause B to be = 2 from the onset, and therefore would never get freed. 2017-07-02T08:17:51Z BW^-: ijp: is really any "refcount = immediate references, minus at any cycle points" impossible? 2017-07-02T08:17:51Z ijp: as far as I can see, you have basically answered your own initial question 2017-07-02T08:17:58Z BW^-: ijp: because the "add-ref" algorithm can know when it reached a cycle point 2017-07-02T08:18:28Z BW^-: ijp,wasamasa: what about this, that we make a "refcounting" algo that records the actual objects, hmm 2017-07-02T08:18:45Z BW^-: ijp: so B will have a marking, "to me are pointing A - not cyclically - and C, cyclically" 2017-07-02T08:18:45Z ijp: the traditional wisdom is correct that the reference counted (as commonly described) memory management systems cannot handle cyclic references, without special support 2017-07-02T08:19:01Z BW^-: ijp: how clean or unlimited is the special support? 2017-07-02T08:19:31Z ijp: your answer was to incorporate the cycle checking directly into your count increment/decrement 2017-07-02T08:19:31Z wildbartty quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2017-07-02T08:19:36Z BW^-: ijp,wasamasa: what i'm trying to understand is how to make a garbage collector for a persistent object database. here, object turnover is low, but you want to optimize for low writing, and you want support for very large heaps. 2017-07-02T08:19:53Z BW^-: so the "marking state" must either be small, or, not change so you can cache it 2017-07-02T08:20:16Z BW^-: so the risk you´'re dealing with is that hte marking state would be so big you need to write it to disk, and that would fry any SSD fast 2017-07-02T08:20:43Z BW^-: as you're doing GC.s all the time right, meaning you'll hit the SSD's frying point around 800TB writes too soon. 2017-07-02T08:20:57Z BW^-: anyhow 2017-07-02T08:21:03Z BW^-: so that's for GC with traditional GC marking algo 2017-07-02T08:21:04Z ijp: you aren't even technically counting references, you are counting something else 2017-07-02T08:21:23Z BW^-: ijp: refcounting is basically a GC with a write barrier that +1:s the references :) 2017-07-02T08:21:31Z BW^-: ijp: PM too :) 2017-07-02T08:21:51Z ijp: keep it public unless you have a specific reason 2017-07-02T08:22:15Z BW^-: ijp: there is one private thought on related topics, not relating to refcounting. 2017-07-02T08:23:30Z ijp: I suppose what is being counted is the number of times it is reachable from some loosely defined root set 2017-07-02T08:23:37Z BW^-: ijp: what would be a special support to a refcounted algorithm, to make it handle cycles? 2017-07-02T08:23:45Z BW^-: ijp: yeah. 2017-07-02T08:25:02Z bjz quit (Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. 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ZZZzzz…) 2017-07-02T09:12:38Z muelleme_ joined #scheme 2017-07-02T09:25:51Z wasamasa: detecting them, duh 2017-07-02T09:26:09Z wasamasa: there should be plenty texts on that, IIRC even chromium's team did one 2017-07-02T09:26:23Z wasamasa: or maybe I'm misremembering and they ditched refcounting completely 2017-07-02T09:30:28Z BW^-: ijp: thanks :)) 2017-07-02T09:30:48Z BW^-: wasamasa: Apple iOS uses refcounting, right? it's entral to Objective C 2017-07-02T09:38:41Z narendraj9 quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-07-02T09:49:05Z weinholt: your problem made me remember that unix filesystems maintain refcounts for inodes and hardlinks, so all you need to do is to put everything in files and create frustrating limits on the type of data your users can create (it will make them feel like experts when they master it) 2017-07-02T09:52:28Z notbarton joined #scheme 2017-07-02T09:55:41Z bjz joined #scheme 2017-07-02T09:57:16Z notbarton quit (Client Quit) 2017-07-02T09:57:32Z notbarton joined #scheme 2017-07-02T10:13:58Z bjz quit (Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. 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ZZZzzz…) 2017-07-02T11:48:52Z terpri quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-02T11:49:39Z terpri joined #scheme 2017-07-02T12:06:47Z parsnip0 quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2017-07-02T12:08:58Z wasamasa: BW^-: sure, but with modifications 2017-07-02T12:09:15Z wasamasa: BW^-: any serious system does, hence why I suggested you to actually look for the specifics 2017-07-02T12:10:31Z sondr3 joined #scheme 2017-07-02T12:16:35Z sondr3 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-02T12:17:54Z gravicappa joined #scheme 2017-07-02T12:21:49Z jaziz quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-02T12:46:28Z pw_ joined #scheme 2017-07-02T12:50:55Z bjz joined #scheme 2017-07-02T12:52:48Z pw_ left #scheme 2017-07-02T12:56:00Z nick8325 joined #scheme 2017-07-02T12:57:27Z edgar-rft joined #scheme 2017-07-02T13:02:28Z BW^-: wasamasa: like.. what modifications, which specifics? 2017-07-02T13:02:53Z wasamasa: you seem to be unable to use a search engine 2017-07-02T13:08:05Z alezost joined #scheme 2017-07-02T13:11:25Z bjz quit (Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2017-07-02T13:15:36Z cemerick joined #scheme 2017-07-02T13:17:41Z greatscottttt joined #scheme 2017-07-02T13:18:19Z nomicflux joined #scheme 2017-07-02T13:28:37Z BW^-: wasamasa: i'll have one more look. if you think of any particular URL let me know =) 2017-07-02T13:29:15Z nomicflux quit (Quit: nomicflux) 2017-07-02T13:34:19Z cemerick quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-02T13:36:43Z jmd joined #scheme 2017-07-02T13:37:37Z notbarton quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-02T13:48:13Z greatscottttt quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-02T13:48:18Z jmd quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-02T13:48:36Z jmd joined #scheme 2017-07-02T13:49:37Z greatscottttt joined #scheme 2017-07-02T13:50:52Z notbarton joined #scheme 2017-07-02T13:56:29Z pilne joined #scheme 2017-07-02T13:58:09Z marvin2 joined #scheme 2017-07-02T14:05:28Z nomicflux joined #scheme 2017-07-02T14:15:16Z civodul joined #scheme 2017-07-02T14:16:31Z Fare joined #scheme 2017-07-02T14:16:40Z wasamasa: http://www.memorymanagement.org/index.html 2017-07-02T14:26:04Z greatscottttt quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-02T14:26:17Z sondr3 joined #scheme 2017-07-02T14:26:46Z nomicflux quit (Quit: nomicflux) 2017-07-02T14:30:58Z sondr3 quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-02T14:36:25Z narendraj9 quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-02T14:36:57Z terpri quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-02T14:37:15Z bjz joined #scheme 2017-07-02T14:38:52Z muelleme_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-02T14:42:10Z greatscottttt joined #scheme 2017-07-02T14:47:30Z narendraj9 joined #scheme 2017-07-02T14:48:35Z nomicflux joined #scheme 2017-07-02T14:49:20Z BW^-: wasamasa: that is a quite excellent page, in particular the bibliography. thanks for sharing! 2017-07-02T14:49:36Z wasamasa: you're welcome 2017-07-02T14:59:20Z jmd quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-02T14:59:22Z narendraj9 quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-02T15:00:45Z BW^-: wasamasa: i'm impressed there's not more research and implementations of garbage collected persistent heaps. 2017-07-02T15:01:28Z wasamasa: doesn't surprise me, it sounds like buzzword bingo 2017-07-02T15:02:50Z BW^-: wasamasa: wait, what? 2017-07-02T15:03:36Z BW^-: wasamasa: no like, a persistent object database with automated garbage collection. so pretty much a heap just on disk. big one, and small RAM consumption requirements for the GC (and no or little implied disk writing for a GC cycle that does nothing or something) 2017-07-02T15:03:47Z wasamasa: persistent object database is another candidate 2017-07-02T15:04:24Z BW^-: wasamasa: what do you mean? 2017-07-02T15:04:32Z BW^-: wasamasa: you mean as search keyword? 2017-07-02T15:04:44Z wasamasa: it sounds like randomly chosen words 2017-07-02T15:05:54Z BW^-: wasamasa: you are not following me, aha. ok. 2017-07-02T15:06:11Z BW^-: wasamasa: i attribute a very specific meaning to these words, at least in my usecase. 2017-07-02T15:06:15Z wasamasa: the most bizarre part of it is you wishing to implement such a thing in scheme 2017-07-02T15:08:22Z narendraj9 joined #scheme 2017-07-02T15:09:09Z BW^-: wasamasa: em, what? 2017-07-02T15:09:28Z BW^-: why, how? 2017-07-02T15:10:22Z wasamasa: what exactly is the goal of your venture into low-level land? 2017-07-02T15:10:29Z wasamasa: speeding up an application? 2017-07-02T15:10:52Z BW^-: wasamasa: speed no 2017-07-02T15:11:06Z BW^-: wasamasa: persistent databases are not necessarily low-level 2017-07-02T15:11:31Z wasamasa: well, they must be if you want something else than print/with-output-to-file 2017-07-02T15:12:31Z wasamasa: what then, for the fun of it? 2017-07-02T15:13:44Z BW^-: sigh no. 2017-07-02T15:16:40Z narendraj9 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-02T15:17:54Z nomicflux quit (Quit: nomicflux) 2017-07-02T15:18:02Z wasamasa: if you want to solve an actual problem and decided that the easiest solution doesn't cut it for a yet to be disclosed reason, you're going to waste a lot of time 2017-07-02T15:18:16Z muelleme_ joined #scheme 2017-07-02T15:21:50Z BW^-: wasamasa: i'm looking for the easiest solution. 2017-07-02T15:22:11Z wasamasa: well, I've pointed it out long time ago and now again :P 2017-07-02T15:24:50Z nomicflux joined #scheme 2017-07-02T15:24:53Z jcowan: BW^-: 2017-07-02T15:24:55Z jcowan: One day a student came to Moon and said: “I understand how to make a better garbage collector. We must keep a reference count of the pointers to each cons.” 2017-07-02T15:24:55Z jcowan: Moon patiently told the student the following story: 2017-07-02T15:24:55Z jcowan: “One day a student came to Moon and said: ‘I understand how to make a better garbage collector... 2017-07-02T15:24:57Z brendos quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-02T15:25:42Z greatsco1 joined #scheme 2017-07-02T15:25:52Z wasamasa: I linked that one already :D 2017-07-02T15:27:28Z bjz quit (Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2017-07-02T15:27:58Z BW^-: jcowan,wasamasa: i'm looking for how to do garbage collection on a large persistent(disk-stored) heap, such that the marking phase will use insignificant RAM and not spill over to disk by writing 2017-07-02T15:28:21Z wasamasa: there you go again 2017-07-02T15:28:36Z greatscottttt quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-02T15:28:43Z wasamasa: this is a solution in search of a problem 2017-07-02T15:29:01Z BW^-: wasamasa: this paper http://booksc.org/book/44589588/fc5ee0 for instance, doesn't mention 2017-07-02T15:29:16Z BW^-: wasamasa: no? 2017-07-02T15:29:37Z wasamasa: you know, maybe you should team up with gavino, he's very interested in scheme for e-commerce, big data and crushing oracle's grip on popular database technology 2017-07-02T15:29:37Z BW^-: wasamasa: there are situations when you want an automatically collected disk-based heap. 2017-07-02T15:29:46Z wasamasa: yes and I haven't heard of a single one so far 2017-07-02T15:29:56Z wasamasa: this discussion is lots of wanking over unknowns 2017-07-02T15:30:20Z BW^-: wasamasa: "the SQL model of persistence sucks badly", how is that as a motivation. 2017-07-02T15:30:35Z wasamasa: that is a suggestion, not a problem 2017-07-02T15:34:00Z alezost quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-02T15:35:15Z bjz joined #scheme 2017-07-02T15:46:03Z wasamasa: anyway, as long as I don't see a proper description of the problem at hand, I'm going to assume it's going to solve itself with very simple tools (like, built-in serialization or coreutils) or with an off-the-shell database 2017-07-02T15:46:30Z jmd joined #scheme 2017-07-02T15:46:31Z wasamasa: sorry, RDBMS 2017-07-02T15:47:11Z wasamasa: I've yet to see someone on IRC to outdo a RDBMS 2017-07-02T15:48:18Z jcowan 's company product easily outdoes an RDBMS, but whatever 2017-07-02T15:48:37Z wasamasa: I reckon they're not on freenode :P 2017-07-02T15:48:54Z wasamasa: and if they were, they wouldn't randomly ask for object stores written in scheme 2017-07-02T15:50:53Z jcowan: It is written in K, which could be translated into Scheme very easily 2017-07-02T15:52:15Z nomicflux quit (Quit: nomicflux) 2017-07-02T15:53:15Z nomicflux joined #scheme 2017-07-02T15:55:30Z wasamasa: ah, I know which one you mean then 2017-07-02T15:59:37Z BW^-: jcowan: what's your company's product? 2017-07-02T16:01:40Z BW^-: wasamasa: i got convinced of the utility of a persistent object store about a year ago. i guess Datomic and Franz' AllegroCache are the most mature implementations today 2017-07-02T16:02:29Z jcowan: We don't sell it as a product, we sell the use of it 2017-07-02T16:03:10Z jcowan: for US$$$$$$$ or so 2017-07-02T16:04:25Z BW^-: jcowan: and what does your product do? 2017-07-02T16:05:46Z jcowan: It allows you to upload massive amounts of data and manipulate it in a spreadsheet style, up to a trillion rows per table. 2017-07-02T16:05:58Z BW^-: jcowan: cool ok! 2017-07-02T16:06:08Z jcowan: https://1010data.com/ 2017-07-02T16:08:14Z BW^-: wasamasa: i basically want a Scheme heap on a disk. this way persistent and live objects share format altogether, which makes coding and solving some problems more straightforward and concise for me 2017-07-02T16:08:42Z BW^-: then, with the persistent objects, automated garbage collection makes the most sense as memory managment method in my case. 2017-07-02T16:10:03Z jcowan: You might find http://web.cecs.pdx.edu/~black/OOP/papers/Kaehler%20&%20Krasner-LOOM.pdf interesting. It was an early way to provide a unified core/disk heap. 2017-07-02T16:10:52Z jcowan: Of course you need to scale up all the sizes of things 2017-07-02T16:12:28Z jcowan: However, with 64-bit machines that have 48-bit addresses, you will have to move to a very large distributed database before you exceed the capabilities of virtual memory. 2017-07-02T16:12:38Z narendraj9 joined #scheme 2017-07-02T16:12:45Z wasamasa: heh, why doesn't it surprise me that the paper is about smalltalk 2017-07-02T16:13:21Z jcowan: Of course! 2017-07-02T16:13:35Z jcowan: It could just as well have been about LispM Lisp 2017-07-02T16:13:41Z jcowan: or Interlisp 2017-07-02T16:15:14Z jcowan: I think it would be difficult to outfit a single server with 256 TB of ssd disks 2017-07-02T16:15:48Z jcowan: The servers $EMPLOYER uses are half a TB of memory and about 28 TB of disk (10 volumes with RAID 0) 2017-07-02T16:15:57Z narendraj9 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-02T16:15:58Z jcowan: s/volumes/physical disks 2017-07-02T16:16:37Z jcowan: s/RAID 0/RAID 5 2017-07-02T16:17:23Z jcowan: most of our durability comes from replication across machines, but we add a little bit using RAID 5 instead of RAID 0 2017-07-02T16:21:24Z narendraj9 joined #scheme 2017-07-02T16:24:29Z greatsco1 is now known as greatscottttt 2017-07-02T16:25:54Z nomicflux quit (Quit: nomicflux) 2017-07-02T16:26:18Z BW^-: jcowan: are you aware of any GC model that works for my spec? 2017-07-02T16:26:40Z bjz quit (Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2017-07-02T16:27:00Z BW^-: jcowan: so that is, large (say terabytes) persistent object database (a la scheme heap but on disk), and GC has low RAM requirements (say 25MB) and low-to-none disk writing requirements for when it doesn't collect any objects 2017-07-02T16:28:13Z BW^-: also, are there any specific algorithms for detecting object cycles? 2017-07-02T16:28:54Z jcowan: Not really. 2017-07-02T16:29:05Z BW^-: jcowan: thanks for the PDF link, reading. 2017-07-02T16:29:16Z jcowan: One good hack is instead of maintaining an exact reference count, just make sure that it has at least the correct value (but may be higher) 2017-07-02T16:29:19Z BW^-: jcowan: do you think there's a straightforward solutino to the problem? 2017-07-02T16:29:29Z jcowan: Here's another one 2017-07-02T16:29:30Z jcowan: https://oup.silverchair-cdn.com/oup/backfile/Content_public/Journal/comjnl/28/3/10.1093/comjnl/28.3.243/2/280243.pdf?Expires=1499106440&Signature=ciRBvMar2MDI8w3k9p0CAdIsh~ExghOeLM88qxj7gJQI1p8mJRjjLQGu5qhoWjPCsG~KCGZdOdZw~Y55eAd0X-kEVl73EPYcHUAfdANc7p~VPs7~edSQub9Uc0wxiCjOg29kb8976vi---9~axqw5AW241Hz58-7rWL-eyy8shXSmPvTIh0unH5aj89zl7cdvCf3aVu~sa1nx0Viu3LqdNwTlmEyal1NfwsLeSygiJn4-2pcXdsn-I~HxZMZiA4Gh7GVM4zkCSJXV0YxZlr6wNKzmcUL8--FIsE3aATzy 2017-07-02T16:29:30Z jcowan: NWAU1rPITXkOBzO-7bg1WNWuic1ntvdhe5MJZhfn4c5TQ__&Key-Pair-Id=APKAIUCZBIA4LVPAVW3Q 2017-07-02T16:29:33Z rudybot: http://teensy.info/HOW6vz6p3Q 2017-07-02T16:29:35Z BW^-: http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/download?doi=10.1.1.36.3687&rep=rep1&type=pdf this paper gives some kind of solution but it incurs quite a bit of writing. 2017-07-02T16:29:47Z BW^-: jcowan: ups that's a long link, can you give me a shorter link? 2017-07-02T16:29:53Z jcowan: Why are you so memory constrained? 2017-07-02T16:30:09Z jmd` joined #scheme 2017-07-02T16:31:39Z jcowan: http://tinyurl.com/ycenypkw 2017-07-02T16:32:11Z BW^-: jcowan: the LOOM GC uses reference counting 2017-07-02T16:32:18Z BW^-: jcowan: crappy commodity hardware may have very little RAM 2017-07-02T16:34:47Z terpri joined #scheme 2017-07-02T16:41:07Z BW^-: jcowan: are you aware of any way to sub-segment a heap into "bunches" that can be collected independently, hence decreasing the size of the working set for the GC process? 2017-07-02T16:41:09Z BW^-: i think not. 2017-07-02T16:42:06Z jcowan: Generational GC systems do that, and so do manually controlled arenas, where you allocate out of an arena and then can manually scrap the arena. 2017-07-02T16:42:24Z jcowan: Of course on disk you don't want to copy things from one place to another when changing generations if you can help it. 2017-07-02T16:44:16Z yosafbridge quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-07-02T16:45:28Z narendraj9 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-02T16:46:56Z BW^-: jcowan: wait, how can a generational GC serve this purpose? 2017-07-02T16:47:09Z BW^-: jcowan: i mean, cycles could appear across generation borders.. no? 2017-07-02T16:47:35Z jcowan: In generational systems, pointers from the old to the young (which can only appear as a result of mutation) are specially tracked. 2017-07-02T16:48:11Z jcowan: Since young generations are collected more often, pointers to older generations can be treated as static. 2017-07-02T16:48:45Z yosafbridge joined #scheme 2017-07-02T16:49:41Z BW^-: jcowan: well yeah, that's a nice point indeed, that an old object by definition cannot refer to a newer object 2017-07-02T16:50:07Z jcowan: It can in Scheme, where pointers in cons cells are mutable. 2017-07-02T16:50:19Z BW^-: jcowan: so to create a reference to an older object, you always need that older object to exist first - and if you mutate an older object to store a cyclical reference to some object, you just redefine that old object as a new object. 2017-07-02T16:50:21Z jcowan: But such cases tend to be rare and can be held in a separate list 2017-07-02T16:50:24Z BW^-: jcowan: sure such a scheme makes sense. 2017-07-02T16:50:36Z BW^-: jcowan: yeah indeed. hummmmmmmmm. that list may grow indeed though.. 2017-07-02T16:50:51Z jcowan: Only slowly relative to the total amount of data 2017-07-02T16:51:00Z jcowan: in typical programs 2017-07-02T16:51:07Z BW^-: jcowan: well yeah sure, it should in average be max something like 1 in 250 objects 2017-07-02T16:51:09Z BW^-: sure. 2017-07-02T16:51:19Z BW^-: jcowan: yeah, so some kind of generational model could help solve this, sure, 2017-07-02T16:51:29Z BW^-: jcowan: but then still, i need some way to mitigate the need for creating the marking bitmap from scratch over and over again. 2017-07-02T16:52:18Z BW^-: jcowan: i'm fine with having a disk-stored object markings bitmap, in some format, such that subsequent GC:s don't need to create one anew all the time (such a bitmap could be say 100GB or anyhow more than I have RAM for, and, i can't do such big writes to the SSD all the time). 2017-07-02T16:52:22Z jcowan: It's not uncommon to keep marking information in the object itself. 2017-07-02T16:52:37Z BW^-: jcowan: sure but the marking info would need to be rewritten all the time right? 2017-07-02T16:52:42Z BW^-: jcowan: SSD:s wear out quickly. 2017-07-02T16:52:46Z jcowan: Alternatively, there are spare bits in pointers. 2017-07-02T16:53:11Z BW^-: sure. but just the act of writing here would cause SSD wear, which is one of the two major evils that i'm designing to mitigate (the other one being need for more than ~25MB of RAM) 2017-07-02T16:53:42Z BW^-: jcowan: what I see is that the whole marking thing is the tricky thing that i need to mitigate. hm. 2017-07-02T16:54:10Z BW^-: jcowan: humm - actually, i could do some kind of disk cache of the marking process 2017-07-02T16:54:13Z BW^-: jcowan: some kind of disk based log 2017-07-02T16:54:23Z BW^-: jcowan: and follow your generational model 2017-07-02T16:56:58Z BW^-: jcowan: do you see any way i can create a "cache", "log", "journal" of the marking process, that is also such that not very much of the log would need to be changed, if some objects are added/removed? 2017-07-02T17:02:10Z BW^-: jcowan: ? 2017-07-02T17:24:48Z noobly_ joined #scheme 2017-07-02T17:24:59Z noobly_: how does the racket REPL differ from DrRacket? 2017-07-02T17:26:33Z wasamasa: the one opened by `racket` in the console? 2017-07-02T17:27:15Z wasamasa: for starters, one is textual and the other graphical 2017-07-02T17:27:50Z alezost joined #scheme 2017-07-02T17:32:52Z noobly_: But in terms of functionality, I can accomplish the same with racket repl? 2017-07-02T17:33:23Z noobly_: I can't get DrRacket on my system, so will have to adapt to using racket REPL, as foreign as REPLs are to em 2017-07-02T17:33:27Z noobly_: *to me 2017-07-02T17:33:57Z wasamasa: well, you can't accomplish display of images in it 2017-07-02T17:34:00Z wasamasa: debugging functionality is more bare bones 2017-07-02T17:42:38Z Fare: noobly_, there's an emacs mode for it 2017-07-02T17:42:57Z BW^-: wasamasa,*: are there any papers for how to cache the results of the marking/tracing phase? 2017-07-02T17:43:04Z noobly_: Fare: Oh whoa, I never considered that. I'll check that out! 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I reach maximum recursion depth on a list of 200k items :-/ 2017-07-03T07:57:10Z BW^-: riastradh: any idea? 2017-07-03T07:57:39Z BW^-: so, algorithms for detecting cycles in a directed graph, with as small memory footprint as possible. 2017-07-03T08:00:59Z BW^-: ecraven: do you know anything about cycle detection algorithms? =) 2017-07-03T08:07:04Z ecraven: BW^-: google knows a lot ;) 2017-07-03T08:07:17Z BW^-: :P 2017-07-03T08:07:18Z BW^-: :} 2017-07-03T08:24:57Z nick8325 joined #scheme 2017-07-03T08:35:04Z Leo1 joined #scheme 2017-07-03T08:36:11Z greatscottttt joined #scheme 2017-07-03T08:36:58Z sleffy quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-07-03T08:45:47Z beekill joined #scheme 2017-07-03T08:50:29Z marvin3 joined #scheme 2017-07-03T08:52:18Z marvin2 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-03T09:02:10Z qu1j0t3 quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2017-07-03T09:06:28Z BW^-: a paper says "One of the most promising automatic storage reclamation techniques, generation-based storage reclamation, suffers poor performance if many objects live for a fairly long time and then die. ". what's their point? 2017-07-03T09:07:06Z sleffy joined #scheme 2017-07-03T09:16:52Z sleffy quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-07-03T09:35:10Z Leo1 left #scheme 2017-07-03T09:41:21Z BW^- quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-03T09:41:57Z BW^- joined #scheme 2017-07-03T09:49:08Z lvo joined #scheme 2017-07-03T09:55:37Z nanoz joined #scheme 2017-07-03T09:57:15Z qu1j0t3 joined #scheme 2017-07-03T09:57:57Z cmatei joined #scheme 2017-07-03T10:16:29Z sz0 quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2017-07-03T10:21:23Z brendos joined #scheme 2017-07-03T10:25:26Z beekill quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-03T10:45:49Z BW^-_ joined #scheme 2017-07-03T10:46:56Z BW^- quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-07-03T10:47:11Z BW^-_ quit (Client Quit) 2017-07-03T10:47:33Z BW^- joined #scheme 2017-07-03T10:52:13Z nckx quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-03T10:52:38Z eagleflo quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-03T10:54:32Z eagleflo joined #scheme 2017-07-03T11:00:09Z nckx joined #scheme 2017-07-03T11:03:59Z cemerick joined #scheme 2017-07-03T11:05:58Z peterhil joined #scheme 2017-07-03T11:07:14Z BW^- quit (Quit: BW^-) 2017-07-03T11:09:50Z nick8325 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-03T11:14:37Z nick8325 joined #scheme 2017-07-03T11:15:27Z nick8325 quit (Disconnected by services) 2017-07-03T11:15:38Z nick8325 joined #scheme 2017-07-03T11:23:12Z nckx quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2017-07-03T11:26:24Z nckx joined #scheme 2017-07-03T11:34:57Z jaziz quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-07-03T11:41:34Z PinealGlandOptic quit (Quit: leaving) 2017-07-03T12:16:06Z nomicflux joined #scheme 2017-07-03T12:19:02Z bjz joined #scheme 2017-07-03T12:24:07Z nomicflux quit (Quit: nomicflux) 2017-07-03T12:43:56Z BW^- joined #scheme 2017-07-03T12:44:17Z Khisanth quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-03T12:47:48Z lvo quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-03T12:50:09Z grublet joined #scheme 2017-07-03T12:57:47Z Khisanth joined #scheme 2017-07-03T13:08:27Z bjz_ joined #scheme 2017-07-03T13:09:53Z bjz quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-07-03T13:31:15Z bjz joined #scheme 2017-07-03T13:32:49Z bjz_ quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-07-03T13:34:30Z nick8325 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-03T13:48:42Z nanoz quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-03T13:52:22Z Riastradh: ecraven: Can define them yourself! Or submit a patch to srfi-1.scm. 2017-07-03T13:52:37Z Riastradh: ecraven: (If you submit via Savannah, more likely it won't get lost.) 2017-07-03T13:52:51Z ecraven: Riastradh: patch as in replacing the current implementation? 2017-07-03T13:53:02Z Riastradh: ecraven: Yes. 2017-07-03T13:53:11Z ecraven: OK, thank you, I'll have a look ;) 2017-07-03T13:53:17Z Riastradh: That said, MAP should be iterative already, unless I'm misreading something. 2017-07-03T13:53:20Z jackdaniel: (coerce 'scheme 'common-lisp) ;-) 2017-07-03T13:53:29Z jackdaniel: just joking, don't mind me 2017-07-03T13:53:35Z ecraven: might be filter that chokes 2017-07-03T13:54:23Z Riastradh: ecraven: FILTER and FILTER-MAP are not. 2017-07-03T13:55:52Z ecraven: Riastradh: would it be ok if I sent a patch against them? 2017-07-03T13:56:11Z ecraven: I've run into this a few times already, seems like there's no reason for them not to be an iterative process 2017-07-03T14:00:17Z sondr3 joined #scheme 2017-07-03T14:01:54Z Riastradh: Go for it. 2017-07-03T14:02:21Z Riastradh: The only reason they're *not* iterative right now is that Olin was used to Scheme48 whose stack size is only bounded by the heap size. 2017-07-03T14:04:55Z sondr3 quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-03T14:07:27Z greatscottttt quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-03T14:07:30Z grublet quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2017-07-03T14:29:21Z narendraj9 joined #scheme 2017-07-03T14:31:02Z badkins joined #scheme 2017-07-03T14:32:45Z emacsomancer joined #scheme 2017-07-03T14:51:27Z BW^- quit (Quit: BW^-) 2017-07-03T14:54:10Z BW^- joined #scheme 2017-07-03T14:54:50Z greatscottttt joined #scheme 2017-07-03T14:57:05Z brendos quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-03T15:08:03Z bjz quit (Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. 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I've looked at the code, but I haven't found a way to write it iteratively *and* re-use the old tail if possible 2017-07-04T05:12:10Z ecraven: I'll think about it some more ;) 2017-07-04T05:14:11Z jmd joined #scheme 2017-07-04T05:14:47Z jmd quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-04T05:20:31Z jmd joined #scheme 2017-07-04T05:20:39Z grublet quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-04T05:25:02Z jmd quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-04T05:25:23Z jmd joined #scheme 2017-07-04T05:28:10Z ozzloy quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-04T05:33:29Z ozzloy joined #scheme 2017-07-04T05:33:29Z ozzloy quit (Changing host) 2017-07-04T05:33:29Z ozzloy joined #scheme 2017-07-04T05:34:21Z jmd` joined #scheme 2017-07-04T05:35:39Z jmd` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-04T05:36:43Z beekill quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-04T05:37:46Z jmd quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-04T05:43:59Z jmd joined #scheme 2017-07-04T05:44:39Z jmd quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-04T05:46:49Z jmd joined #scheme 2017-07-04T05:55:19Z jmd` joined #scheme 2017-07-04T05:55:38Z jmd` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-04T05:56:49Z jmd` joined #scheme 2017-07-04T05:58:54Z jmd` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-04T05:59:49Z jmd` joined #scheme 2017-07-04T06:00:00Z jmd` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-04T06:01:42Z jonaslund joined #scheme 2017-07-04T06:08:03Z jmd quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-04T06:11:37Z lambda-11235 quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.8) 2017-07-04T06:15:07Z vifino quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-07-04T06:16:28Z mejja joined #scheme 2017-07-04T06:22:36Z mejja: good morning #scheme 2017-07-04T06:28:30Z ecraven: good morning mejja ;) 2017-07-04T06:29:26Z mejja: ecraven: maybe keep-matching items is what you are looking for(re: filter) 2017-07-04T06:30:05Z ecraven: I'll check that out 2017-07-04T06:30:13Z ecraven: thanks for the pointer 2017-07-04T06:31:58Z mejja: (keep-matching-items items predicate) <=> (filter predicate items) 2017-07-04T06:35:58Z beekill joined #scheme 2017-07-04T06:36:43Z jonaslund quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-04T06:47:42Z ecraven: if that one is iterative, not recursive, why isn't filter just an alias for that? 2017-07-04T06:53:48Z dsp quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-04T07:01:05Z mejja: the devil is in the details 2017-07-04T07:12:08Z sondr3 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-04T07:45:15Z ecraven: mejja: also, looking at its implementation, that also conses a new list and doesn't reuse the old tail 2017-07-04T07:45:32Z ecraven: (filter even? 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Can I match a string, say "λx.x x" into the name "x" and the body "x x"? 2017-07-04T17:56:35Z akr[m]: hmm, it's not going to work with more complex examples anyway, nevermind 2017-07-04T17:57:19Z akr[m]: still, would be interested in whether match can do this kinda thing: e.g. match on the string "key=value" to extract value when key is "mykey" 2017-07-04T18:00:08Z r0kc4t joined #scheme 2017-07-04T18:00:38Z nomicflux joined #scheme 2017-07-04T18:11:53Z jmd joined #scheme 2017-07-04T18:18:42Z lritter quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-07-04T18:29:08Z muelleme_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-04T18:31:08Z muelleme_ joined #scheme 2017-07-04T18:34:15Z nomicflux quit (Quit: nomicflux) 2017-07-04T18:45:44Z narendraj9 joined #scheme 2017-07-04T18:51:08Z ssake joined #scheme 2017-07-04T19:00:35Z nomicflux joined #scheme 2017-07-04T19:04:50Z nomicflux quit (Client Quit) 2017-07-04T19:06:41Z jcowan quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-07-04T19:28:25Z akr[m]: http://download.plt-scheme.org/doc/4.1.3/html/ts-guide/index.html 2017-07-04T19:28:30Z akr[m]: how do I use this? the link is dead… 2017-07-04T19:32:13Z akr[m]: I put #lang typed-scheme on top of my file, but when I try to open a repl, I get 'apply: Searching for program: No such file or directory, csi'apply: Searching for program: No such file or directory, csi 2017-07-04T19:32:33Z akr[m]: (I'm using Guile 2.2.2 2017-07-04T19:32:34Z akr[m]: ) 2017-07-04T19:36:24Z akr[m]: I guess I'll just use typed racket 2017-07-04T19:38:11Z wigust joined #scheme 2017-07-04T19:38:52Z circ-user-OrdjI joined #scheme 2017-07-04T19:40:42Z circ-user-OrdjI quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-04T19:51:34Z ecraven: csi is usually chicken scheme 2017-07-04T19:51:59Z ecraven: and #lang typed-scheme would only work in racket, not in guile, I think 2017-07-04T19:54:18Z akr[m]: it's #lang typed/racket in racket, though 2017-07-04T20:07:19Z jmd quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-04T20:09:06Z narendraj9 quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-04T20:12:39Z civodul joined #scheme 2017-07-04T20:16:17Z ecraven: yea, but it probably was typed-scheme *before* plt became racket 2017-07-04T20:17:13Z ijp: everything changes, especially software 2017-07-04T20:25:05Z muelleme_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-04T20:27:22Z X-Scale joined #scheme 2017-07-04T20:54:42Z bjz joined #scheme 2017-07-04T21:04:20Z notbarton joined #scheme 2017-07-04T21:04:45Z notbarton quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-04T21:07:01Z jaziz joined #scheme 2017-07-04T21:34:16Z happy_gnu quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2017-07-04T21:44:58Z civodul quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 25.2.1)) 2017-07-04T21:46:47Z bjz quit (Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. 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I have a program here that totally crashes on the former, only works if its files contain exclusively the latter form 2017-07-04T22:07:53Z daviid: ecraven: not the same thing, here some more o this: https://dthompson.us/rendering-html-with-sxml-and-gnu-guile.html 2017-07-04T22:12:32Z ecraven: thanks ;) fyi, the certificate is expired 2017-07-04T22:14:12Z daviid: ecraven: this is not my site, but the owmner knows ... tx 2017-07-04T22:14:21Z ecraven: I still lament the fact that html5 just threw xhtml out the window, would have been much more fun if html *were* actually xml 2017-07-04T22:24:09Z wigust quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-04T22:28:55Z vicenteH quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-04T22:32:03Z bjz joined #scheme 2017-07-04T22:33:04Z hive-mind quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-04T22:34:42Z hive-mind joined #scheme 2017-07-04T22:40:35Z bjz quit (Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. 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2017-07-05T12:51:37Z narendraj9 joined #scheme 2017-07-05T13:09:55Z davexunit: ecraven: I really need to update that post, it does some not-so-great things. if you just use utf-8 encoding you don't need that massive table of html escapes. 2017-07-05T13:11:12Z davexunit: ecraven: (same expired cert issue) see this module from Haunt with a modified version of the code from that blog post: https://git.dthompson.us/haunt.git/blob/HEAD:/haunt/html.scm 2017-07-05T13:11:46Z ecraven: I need to look into Haunt again, I have static site gen needs ;) 2017-07-05T13:13:17Z davexunit: letsencrypt won't regenerate my certs and I don't know why :( 2017-07-05T13:18:57Z wigust quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-05T13:32:31Z ecraven: hm.. strange 2017-07-05T13:32:45Z ecraven: I use this normally: https://gethttpsforfree.com/ 2017-07-05T13:32:55Z ecraven: has worked fine for a couple of machines for some time now 2017-07-05T13:36:21Z nanoz] quit (Quit: <3) 2017-07-05T13:40:49Z narendraj9 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refcounting is "soo expensive". i don't really see that. refc. requires a "write barrier" that will count the new object and uncount the old object, and propagate any deallocations(and that can be made via a queue)... i don't see what's so CPU-expensive about that!? 2017-07-05T18:58:39Z narendraj9 joined #scheme 2017-07-05T18:58:45Z BW^-: maybe 1985 the CPU work for such a write barrier would be "expensive". i don't really see what would be any notable about it. 2017-07-05T18:59:07Z wasamasa: I don't see why you keep pinging more and more people about a topic hardly anyone talks about 2017-07-05T18:59:09Z daviid joined #scheme 2017-07-05T18:59:48Z wasamasa: your time would be better spent actually writing code 2017-07-05T18:59:50Z jaziz joined #scheme 2017-07-05T19:00:35Z CnTLDude quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-07-05T19:12:16Z narendraj9 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-05T19:15:29Z BW^-: wasamasa: yes soon :)) 2017-07-05T19:15:40Z wasamasa: aka never 2017-07-05T19:17:35Z BW^-: =o 2017-07-05T19:17:43Z BW^-: no, decidedly soon. 2017-07-05T19:17:59Z narendraj9 joined #scheme 2017-07-05T19:26:34Z Guest28111 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-05T19:31:47Z jmd quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-05T19:38:42Z jonaslund: BW^-: the absolute majority of operations in code is actually "moves" (think call argument, return values, parameter preparation,etc), any naive refcounting in a runtime will end up being quite expensive and making it non-expensive involves building refcount deferral tracking into the compiler and code generators 2017-07-05T19:39:12Z jonaslund: and bugs in those last modules will lead to either memory leaks or worse, corruption by multi-free's 2017-07-05T19:40:11Z jonaslund: and at the end of the day you still need a regular GC to sweep cycles 2017-07-05T19:41:46Z jonaslund: oh, and half of the optimizations that can be done to defer refcounts in code generators goes out the window in multithreaded contexts (not to mention that all refcount ops needs to be atomic) 2017-07-05T19:44:57Z jonaslund: and cache effects, almost forgot about that. every pointer you touch with refcounting would force the object into (and adding load) to the cache 2017-07-05T19:46:43Z BW^-: jonaslund: sweep in the sense tracing? 2017-07-05T19:47:06Z BW^-: o 2017-07-05T19:47:07Z BW^-: ok 2017-07-05T19:48:20Z jonaslund: Now, Apple's ARC does defer things afaik so you can make it decent-ish 2017-07-05T19:49:37Z jonaslund: Also there's https://www.cs.virginia.edu/~cs415/reading/bacon-garbage.pdf that posits the duality of RC and tracing in terms of GC and that most of the design space is between 2017-07-05T19:51:59Z jonaslund: so generational GC's with write barriers in a sense borrows a bit of RC's characteristics 2017-07-05T19:52:43Z jonaslund: but unless you have really hard realtime requirements the above (gen-GC with WB's) seems to be a fairly sweet spot in terms of performance and latency for most 2017-07-05T19:53:06Z BW^-: jonaslund: wait what kind of genGC with WB? 2017-07-05T19:53:16Z BW^-: the paper is long, takes a bit for me to understand exactly what you mean 2017-07-05T19:53:50Z BW^-: jonaslund: btw, on related topics, what's the (incremental or not) object tracing algorithm that you know of, that has the smallest RAM footprint? 2017-07-05T19:53:59Z BW^-: just the tracing itself, which finds cycles, not the mark bitmap creation 2017-07-05T19:57:58Z jonaslund: BW^-: I've not really optimized for that ever but i think the old minischeme has some pointer reversal algo that seems to be efficient 2017-07-05T19:58:10Z arifuzzaman joined #scheme 2017-07-05T19:58:30Z Riastradh quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-05T19:58:41Z BW^-: jonaslund: interesting. would you mind digging out any reference URL, and i'll have a look? 2017-07-05T19:58:53Z vicenteH joined #scheme 2017-07-05T19:58:56Z BW^-: jonaslund: so just anything to do what refcounting cannot do: detect cycles. so they can be handled properly. 2017-07-05T20:02:28Z Riastradh joined #scheme 2017-07-05T20:03:38Z BW^-: jonaslund: thanks a lot for that ref. 2017-07-05T20:04:07Z jcowan: jonaslund: FWIW, you can improve reference counting a lot by actually moving pointers rather than copying them 2017-07-05T20:04:20Z jcowan: that is, nulling out the source wherever possible, which leaves the refcount undisturbed 2017-07-05T20:04:43Z jonaslund: BW^-: https://github.com/catseye/minischeme/blob/master/miniscm.c#L570 2017-07-05T20:07:02Z jcowan: http://sdmeta.gforge.inria.fr/FreeBooks/BitsOfHistory/BitsOfHistory.pdf physical pp. 197-203 2017-07-05T20:07:06Z jonaslund: jcowan: seems reasonable 2017-07-05T20:07:27Z jcowan: another Smalltalk paper using bytecode, a stack machine, and refcounting 2017-07-05T20:07:50Z wasamasa: jonaslund: who is that "Kunuth" guy? 2017-07-05T20:08:13Z jonaslund: wasamasa: Japaneese knuth? :) 2017-07-05T20:08:20Z wasamasa: :D 2017-07-05T20:08:27Z jcowan: He's a professor emeritus at Satanford 2017-07-05T20:08:46Z jonaslund: *lol* 2017-07-05T20:08:57Z wasamasa: that explains everything 2017-07-05T20:09:13Z BW^-: jcowan: do you know any cycle detection algorithms? in particular any with fixed RAM footprint, any incremental, any that are cheaper CPU-wise. 2017-07-05T20:09:35Z jcowan: "Who is Goethe?" Shrug. "Who is Schiller?" Shrug. "Who is Kleist?" "The Chinese Messiah, sir?" 2017-07-05T20:10:38Z jcowan waahs. 2017-07-05T20:10:43Z jcowan: Nobody ever laughs at that joke 2017-07-05T20:12:56Z hugo quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-05T20:12:59Z Riastradh: BW^-: Normally procedure calls involve moving data through CPU registers on the die, or sometimes in fast memory caches near the CPU -- no access to main RAM needed. Normally updating reference counts requires writing to main RAM -- many times, for every parameter, for every local variable, &c., on entry to and exit from each procedure, creating a bottleneck at memory bandwidth that isn't there without 2017-07-05T20:13:06Z Riastradh: reference counts. 2017-07-05T20:13:24Z hugo joined #scheme 2017-07-05T20:13:28Z Riastradh: BW^-: Bring multiple cores into the mix, and now not only do you have to write to main RAM, but you have to do so atomically by coordinating those writes with all CPUs in the system. 2017-07-05T20:23:19Z muelleme_ quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-05T20:23:32Z BW^-: jcowan: ..:} 2017-07-05T20:24:18Z BW^-: riastradh: right, so using refcounting for hte "primary memory" of any program, is a real "killer". however, for persistent or more seldomly accessed data, it's more OK? 2017-07-05T20:28:55Z ecraven: the Rust Evangelist Strike Force would say you don't need reference counts, just borrow! 2017-07-05T20:29:19Z wasamasa: lol 2017-07-05T20:29:27Z jonaslund: ecraven: I for one thing it's a nice design descision 2017-07-05T20:29:44Z ecraven: sorry, I read too much hacker news, the RESF is a meme there ;) 2017-07-05T20:29:53Z ecraven: Rust is one of the few new languages that look seriously interesting 2017-07-05T20:30:07Z wasamasa: plenty of old interesting languages 2017-07-05T20:30:10Z ecraven: Idris looks nice too, never knew about dependent typing before 2017-07-05T20:30:13Z ecraven: wasamasa: very much so 2017-07-05T20:30:23Z ecraven: I still haven't finished groking APL by far 2017-07-05T20:31:13Z jonaslund: ecraven: I was quite intrigued by bakers old linear lisp and rust ran with it :) http://home.pipeline.com/~hbaker1/LinearLisp.html 2017-07-05T20:31:32Z wasamasa: ecraven: you think one can implement MAL in APL? 2017-07-05T20:31:44Z wasamasa: ecraven: I'm currently implementing it in smalltalk 2017-07-05T20:32:14Z ecraven: wasamasa: I'm sure, look at Dyalog, it can implement everything 2017-07-05T20:32:36Z ecraven: APL is seriously intriguing to me, it is just such a different model of thinking about computation 2017-07-05T20:33:03Z ecraven: jonaslund: thanks for that link! 2017-07-05T20:35:06Z ecraven: wasamasa: if you are interested, the free pdf of http://www.dyalog.com/mastering-dyalog-apl.htm in combination with gnu-apl (and its emacs-mode) goes quite some way 2017-07-05T20:35:17Z ecraven: dyalog is different in places, but for the simpler things you won't notice 2017-07-05T20:35:25Z wasamasa: lol, COM/OLE 2017-07-05T20:35:33Z ecraven: yea, some of it is windows-centric 2017-07-05T20:35:35Z jaziz quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-05T20:36:10Z wasamasa: do they have closures? 2017-07-05T20:36:45Z ecraven: yes 2017-07-05T20:37:04Z ecraven: well, not exactly, I think 2017-07-05T20:37:08Z ecraven: they have anonymous functions 2017-07-05T20:37:21Z ecraven: 1 2 3 {⍺+⍵} 4 5 6 2017-07-05T20:37:26Z ecraven: -> 5 7 9 2017-07-05T20:37:44Z ecraven: the {..} is an anonymous function, in its body ⍺ is the left argument and ⍵ is the right 2017-07-05T20:38:34Z BW^-: jonaslund: hey, you know https://github.com/catseye/minischeme/blob/master/miniscm.c#L570, the algorithm used is "algorithm E (Kunuth, The Art of Computer Programming Vol.1, * sec.3.5)". 2017-07-05T20:38:47Z BW^-: jonaslund: i happen to have that book here and am reading through all the algorithms A to E there. 2017-07-05T20:38:50Z wasamasa: ecraven: now, does the anonymous function close over something outside its scope? 2017-07-05T20:38:55Z BW^-: jonaslund,jcowan: they read like greek to me :O 2017-07-05T20:39:19Z ecraven: to me, the most "enlightening" languages I've looked at are (in no particular order) Scheme, Forth, Assembly, Smalltalk, Prolog, APL and recently Idris 2017-07-05T20:39:27Z ecraven: BW^-: you haven't seen anything of actual APL :P 2017-07-05T20:39:49Z ecraven: wasamasa: I don't know for sure, but you can store it and pass it around 2017-07-05T20:40:34Z ecraven: just trying to come up with an example to test it 2017-07-05T20:40:35Z BW^-: ecraven: what's exciting to you about Forth? 2017-07-05T20:40:40Z jonaslund: BW^-: It's quite simple though, basically if the mark phase encounters a pointer to a cell, it checks if it has already been marked, if so it continues to find the next unmarked pointer 2017-07-05T20:40:43Z ecraven: BW^-: it's simplicity ;) 2017-07-05T20:40:50Z ecraven: its 2017-07-05T20:40:58Z ecraven: though it's isn't entirely wrong either ;) 2017-07-05T20:41:08Z jonaslund: BW^-: now, if it encounters an empty cell it starts working on it. first thing done is marking it. 2017-07-05T20:41:19Z jonaslund: BW^-: second step is recursing into the car/cdr 2017-07-05T20:41:23Z ecraven: Forth to me has incredible power of abstraction 2017-07-05T20:41:39Z ecraven: of course, if you don't remember what's on the stack, you are lost ;P 2017-07-05T20:42:00Z jonaslund: BW^-: to avoid having a separate mark staack/list/etc it uses the CAR/CDR pointer itself as a storage for the back-pointer (ie the previous word in the mark stack) 2017-07-05T20:42:09Z BW^-: jonaslund: what is its stack model?? 2017-07-05T20:42:14Z jonaslund: BW^-: and one extra bit to indicate if it recursed from CAR or CDR 2017-07-05T20:42:38Z BW^-: jonas: hmm.. okay 2017-07-05T20:42:50Z jonaslund: BW^-: It's a linked-list-stack consisting of the words that made the GC mark the next word basically 2017-07-05T20:43:01Z BW^-: jonas: as for me, i'm looking for a tracing algorithm that will give me a map of cyclical structures only - i do *not* want to create any marking bitmap! 2017-07-05T20:43:07Z BW^-: jonaslund: would that be possible with this impl? 2017-07-05T20:43:08Z jonaslund: just follow the mark routine, it's not more than 20-25 loc 2017-07-05T20:45:52Z BW^-: jonaslund: what's the point with http://home.pipeline.com/~hbaker1/LinearLisp.html ?? 2017-07-05T20:46:12Z jonaslund: BW^-: no GC 2017-07-05T20:46:19Z jonaslund: or not in the regular sense 2017-07-05T20:46:28Z BW^-: jonaslund: reading the marking logic. however, it's somehow quirky too. could i refeactor it to not produce and use any bitmap? 2017-07-05T20:46:33Z BW^-: jonaslund: but instead what? how? 2017-07-05T20:48:34Z jonaslund: BW^-: each live thing has one reference, no more no less, kind of implicit refcounting (since every de-ref that isn't a move is a free) 2017-07-05T20:49:59Z BW^- quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-05T20:50:26Z BW^- joined #scheme 2017-07-05T20:50:42Z BW^-: (back) 2017-07-05T20:52:16Z narendraj9 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-05T20:53:17Z civodul joined #scheme 2017-07-05T20:53:31Z narendraj9 joined #scheme 2017-07-05T20:54:25Z niklasl2 quit (Quit: Nettalk6 - www.ntalk.de) 2017-07-05T20:55:08Z BW^-: ecraven: ah, any good introduction document for Forth? 2017-07-05T20:56:53Z BW^-: jonaslund: solely 25 locs but they are complex. 2017-07-05T20:59:57Z narendraj9 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-05T21:00:50Z niklasl joined #scheme 2017-07-05T21:01:12Z BW^-: jonaslund: by "atom" they mean "cons cell"? 2017-07-05T21:04:13Z BW^-: jonaslund: i think that one requires a bitmap. 2017-07-05T21:04:14Z jonaslund: no atom in that context seems to be used to indicate if the CAR or CDR holds the back-pointer 2017-07-05T21:04:42Z jonaslund: it's one bit in the cell flags 2017-07-05T21:08:24Z ecraven: BW^-: I like Starting Forth and Thinking Forth 2017-07-05T21:11:12Z Riastradh: BW^-: You should start writing some code for limited versions of the ideas in your head. 2017-07-05T21:17:25Z jcowan: http://cpsc.yale.edu/sites/default/files/files/tr87.pdf <-- paper on APL idioms by Perlis 2017-07-05T21:19:40Z jcowan: BW^-: Note that there is a #forth channel here on freenode 2017-07-05T21:21:03Z BW^-: jcowan: ok 2017-07-05T21:21:34Z jcowan: but #apl has only a few people; #j does not exist, and #k has only one person on it 2017-07-05T21:21:36Z BW^-: riastradh,jonaslund: the tracing i have on my mind will use a stack for each branch point, and just kind of trust that stack objects didn't change directions so much 2017-07-05T21:22:10Z BW^-: riastradh,jonaslund: this way it might do some double work (more than one iteration needed as the traversal might be confused by changed objects), but that is fine 2017-07-05T21:22:40Z BW^-: jonaslund: and why do they need an "atom" term - atom denotes an object entity that has a mark bit?? 2017-07-05T21:23:10Z qu1j0t3: jcowan: nice paper, thanks 2017-07-05T21:23:15Z jonaslund: atom in the context of minischeme seems to indicate if the back-pointer is stored in CAR or CDR 2017-07-05T21:23:25Z jonaslund: BW^-: keep that in mind and try to follow the mark code again 2017-07-05T21:23:29Z jonaslund: everything is in that routine 2017-07-05T21:23:41Z jonaslund: once you get it it'll be clear (despite the misleading name) 2017-07-05T21:26:32Z BW^-: jonaslund: weird. i still don't see how it works. :} 2017-07-05T21:28:11Z jonaslund: to be honest i didn't get it the first time i saw it 20 years ago, don't remember what threw me off back then but tracing the routine step by step will make it clear if you have the patience 2017-07-05T21:28:41Z jonaslund: it could help if you make a list of a few inteconnected cells on a paper or whiteboard and trace execution of the routine through them 2017-07-05T21:29:41Z jonaslund: although if you have knuth's book there might be some enlighting comments regarding the algorithm 2017-07-05T21:30:14Z BW^-: jonaslund: yep have the book. 2017-07-05T21:30:15Z BW^-: yes. 2017-07-05T21:30:25Z dmiles quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-05T21:32:17Z BW^-: jonaslund: btw do you have the new edition of this one? https://www.amazon.com/Garbage-Collection-Handbook-Management-Algorithms/dp/1420082795/ 2017-07-05T21:32:23Z BW^-: "The Garbage Collection Handbook: The Art of Automatic Memory Management (Chapman & Hall/CRC Applied Algorithms and Data Structures series) 1st Edition" 2017-07-05T21:32:35Z BW^-: that's probably the best reference currently 2017-07-05T21:34:58Z BW^- quit (Quit: BW^-) 2017-07-05T21:35:01Z edgar-rft: anyone interested in my garbage collection? :-) 2017-07-05T21:36:27Z Riastradh quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-05T21:39:35Z Riastradh joined #scheme 2017-07-05T21:39:45Z cemerick quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-07-05T21:49:50Z cemerick joined #scheme 2017-07-05T22:07:53Z civodul quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 25.2.1)) 2017-07-05T22:10:05Z qu1j0t3: phew thank god somebody posted references to the enormous literature on it 2017-07-05T22:16:25Z jaziz joined #scheme 2017-07-05T22:17:32Z cemerick quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-05T22:24:04Z arifuzzaman quit (Quit: arifuzzaman) 2017-07-05T22:24:27Z bjz_ quit (Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. 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2017-07-06T20:44:58Z gwatt: ecraven: how much C do you want to write? 2017-07-06T20:45:08Z ecraven: gwatt: ideally, none. 2017-07-06T20:45:54Z gwatt: because the route I would go is to do the mmap and struct pun in C, and then give that to scheme 2017-07-06T20:45:59Z ecraven: I want to say "a record looks like this: ulong x, float y, int n, char[256] str", now memory map foo.data and access it as if it were an array of 300 of these 2017-07-06T20:46:23Z ecraven: gwatt: yea, but you'd need support from the system for unboxed floats and non-copying strings and so on 2017-07-06T20:47:11Z ecraven: hm.. a first step would maybe be memory-mapping a file into a bytevector 2017-07-06T20:47:15Z rianby64 joined #scheme 2017-07-06T20:48:18Z gwatt: You could probably do it in chez 2017-07-06T20:48:35Z gwatt: but you would need to register mmap as a foreign-procedure, and define your type 2017-07-06T20:48:44Z gwatt: and alloc the memory in scheme 2017-07-06T20:51:45Z webshinra quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-06T20:51:53Z ecraven: the mmapping is simple, the accessing without copying is the hard thing, I think 2017-07-06T20:56:14Z webshinra joined #scheme 2017-07-06T20:56:32Z gwatt: http://termbin.com/eepl 2017-07-06T20:57:26Z wasamasa: ecraven: CHICKEN has mmap support, no idea about the rest 2017-07-06T20:57:27Z ecraven: cool, thank you! 2017-07-06T20:57:43Z wasamasa: http://api.call-cc.org/doc/posix#sec:Memory_Mapped_I.2fO_Example 2017-07-06T20:58:01Z wasamasa: you'll most likely have to write C 2017-07-06T20:58:31Z gwatt: ecraven: There are functions (ftype-ref, ftypes-set!) etc to retrieve and store values from ftypes 2017-07-06T20:58:52Z gwatt: http://cisco.github.io/ChezScheme/csug9.4/foreign.html#./foreign:s145 2017-07-06T20:59:02Z ecraven: wasamasa: but why should I? why wouldn't Scheme be able to provide proper abstractions so that I *don't* have to copy memory around and access it only in C? 2017-07-06T20:59:07Z ecraven: gwatt: very nice, thank you! 2017-07-06T20:59:20Z ecraven: I've done a bit of work with chez's FFI, but not enough, obviously 2017-07-06T20:59:21Z wasamasa: ecraven: sure, someone else could have done that for you 2017-07-06T20:59:31Z wasamasa: ecraven: I'm just stating that I doubt that happened 2017-07-06T21:07:31Z gwatt: A reread of the mmap man page makes me think you don't need to allocate the memory as mmap returns a pointer 2017-07-06T21:07:56Z gwatt: which I guess makes sense as you have to give it a length 2017-07-06T21:09:16Z ecraven: yea, you don't 2017-07-06T21:09:24Z ecraven: you just mmap it and get back the pointer where it was mapped 2017-07-06T21:10:08Z gwatt: Those last two lines in that snippet could probably be condensed to: 2017-07-06T21:10:10Z gwatt: (define foo*300 (make-ftype-pointer foo (mmap 0 (* 300 (ftype-sizeof foo)) ))) 2017-07-06T21:10:17Z bjz quit (Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2017-07-06T21:11:35Z gwatt: Though you'll probably have to do some work to expose the values of PROT_* and MAP_* to chez. 2017-07-06T21:11:47Z ecraven: yea, that'd be simple 2017-07-06T21:11:59Z ecraven: is there any work on making chez support r7rs? 2017-07-06T21:12:24Z wasamasa: lol 2017-07-06T21:12:52Z gwatt: Not that I know of 2017-07-06T21:34:38Z rianby64 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-06T21:38:27Z gwatt: Not to say they wouldn't accept a PR for r7rs 2017-07-06T21:39:38Z wasamasa: I doubt it's a goal for them 2017-07-06T21:39:42Z wasamasa: wasn't there a ticket about that 2017-07-06T21:40:06Z rianby64 joined #scheme 2017-07-06T21:41:26Z wasamasa: hm, can't find it 2017-07-06T21:41:55Z gwatt: neither can I 2017-07-06T21:49:57Z bjz joined #scheme 2017-07-06T21:53:57Z gwatt: I think most of r7rs is the same as r6rs, at least for the library functions 2017-07-06T21:54:54Z gwatt: the floor/ truncate/ functions are new 2017-07-06T21:55:08Z gwatt: and some u8* functions 2017-07-06T21:56:11Z Menche_ joined #scheme 2017-07-06T21:56:13Z Menche_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-06T21:56:30Z Menche quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-06T21:56:33Z Menche_ joined #scheme 2017-07-06T21:56:54Z Menche_ is now known as Menche 2017-07-06T22:02:47Z bjz quit (Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. 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Reader differences seem more complicated 2017-07-07T01:13:25Z jcowan_: Yes, they were designed to be straightforward 2017-07-07T01:13:37Z jcowan_ is now known as jcowan 2017-07-07T01:14:50Z gwatt: I remember include-ci not being a simple wrapper around include. 2017-07-07T01:16:21Z jcowan: A few of the lexical syntax changes are a bit messy, like SRFI 4 and R6RS #f32 vs. R7RS #false 2017-07-07T01:17:03Z gwatt: #f32 ? 2017-07-07T01:17:27Z jcowan: 32-bit float vectors 2017-07-07T01:18:01Z gwatt: ah, I didn't know about that 2017-07-07T01:18:29Z gwatt: Yeah, I would be ok doing some work on the basic library stuff for r7rs, but I don't know if I want to muck around in the reader 2017-07-07T01:18:38Z jcowan: I don't know whether R7RS-large will add it (and its relatives like #s16) or not 2017-07-07T01:19:11Z jcowan: lexical syntax will be probably the last thing we look at, so we can pass it all at once 2017-07-07T01:20:13Z gwatt: What lexical syntax changes are different between r7rs and r6rs? 2017-07-07T01:40:52Z beekill joined #scheme 2017-07-07T01:43:44Z sleffy joined #scheme 2017-07-07T02:24:17Z Menche quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-07-07T02:33:02Z nomicflux joined #scheme 2017-07-07T02:37:47Z pilne quit (Quit: Quitting!) 2017-07-07T02:43:46Z arbv quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-07-07T02:45:09Z arbv joined #scheme 2017-07-07T02:57:36Z ArneBab joined #scheme 2017-07-07T02:59:32Z Menche joined #scheme 2017-07-07T03:01:27Z ArneBab_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-07T03:09:36Z nomicflux quit (Quit: nomicflux) 2017-07-07T03:23:56Z grublet quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-07-07T03:29:26Z badkins quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-07T03:29:40Z sleffy quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2017-07-07T03:43:29Z jonaslund quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-07-07T03:53:39Z grublet joined #scheme 2017-07-07T03:54:36Z daviid`` joined #scheme 2017-07-07T03:56:28Z daviid` quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-07T04:12:49Z X-Scale quit (Quit: HydraIRC -> http://www.hydrairc.com <- \o/) 2017-07-07T04:17:26Z jmd joined #scheme 2017-07-07T04:36:07Z jaziz joined #scheme 2017-07-07T04:42:40Z jao quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-07T04:49:08Z lritter joined #scheme 2017-07-07T04:49:20Z jmd` joined #scheme 2017-07-07T04:51:05Z jmd` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-07T04:58:50Z beekill quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-07T05:00:40Z unseen quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2017-07-07T05:05:49Z Merv_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-07T05:31:38Z jonaslund joined #scheme 2017-07-07T05:35:58Z wildbartty joined #scheme 2017-07-07T05:37:39Z wildbartty quit (Client Quit) 2017-07-07T05:37:56Z wildbartty joined #scheme 2017-07-07T05:43:15Z wildbartty quit (Quit: Going to bed) 2017-07-07T05:47:21Z sleffy joined #scheme 2017-07-07T05:56:00Z jonaslund quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-07T06:01:13Z grublet quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-07-07T06:07:13Z jonaslund joined #scheme 2017-07-07T06:08:16Z jmd quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2017-07-07T06:19:18Z Menche quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-07T06:19:42Z Menche joined #scheme 2017-07-07T06:22:29Z sleffy quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2017-07-07T06:26:05Z vifino quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-07T06:27:01Z vifino joined #scheme 2017-07-07T06:36:09Z jonaslund quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-07T06:36:33Z jonaslund joined #scheme 2017-07-07T06:37:21Z juanfra quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-07T06:37:35Z profan quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-07T06:37:35Z dpk quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-07T06:38:08Z juanfra joined #scheme 2017-07-07T06:38:24Z larsen quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-07T06:38:46Z profan joined #scheme 2017-07-07T06:38:46Z dpk joined #scheme 2017-07-07T06:39:05Z amoe quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-07T06:39:05Z ineiros_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-07T06:39:46Z ineiros joined #scheme 2017-07-07T06:40:10Z larsen joined #scheme 2017-07-07T06:40:11Z amoe joined #scheme 2017-07-07T06:45:08Z beekill joined #scheme 2017-07-07T06:51:13Z jonaslund quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-07T06:55:57Z daviid`` quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-07T06:59:06Z Merv_ joined #scheme 2017-07-07T06:59:15Z Merv_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-07T06:59:31Z Merv_ joined #scheme 2017-07-07T07:19:16Z gravicappa joined #scheme 2017-07-07T07:39:13Z ertes quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-07-07T07:49:10Z lambda-11235 quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.9) 2017-07-07T07:58:57Z rianby64 joined #scheme 2017-07-07T08:32:56Z greatscottttt joined #scheme 2017-07-07T08:36:51Z vicenteH joined #scheme 2017-07-07T09:03:49Z bjz joined #scheme 2017-07-07T09:04:26Z bjz quit (Client Quit) 2017-07-07T09:07:50Z bjz joined #scheme 2017-07-07T09:12:57Z jaziz quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-07T09:20:46Z bjz quit (Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. 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I see Alex Shinn's fmt. Are there other contenders? srfi-48 is quite primitive. Something extensible is better, and rivalling with CL's format would be nice, though not necessarily without extensions. 2017-07-08T18:54:33Z takitus joined #scheme 2017-07-08T18:58:13Z jonaslund quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-08T19:16:27Z gravicappa quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-08T19:21:50Z nick8325 joined #scheme 2017-07-08T19:23:17Z takitus quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-08T19:25:05Z rianby64 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-08T19:33:52Z jonaslund joined #scheme 2017-07-08T19:34:48Z jaziz joined #scheme 2017-07-08T19:38:33Z wasamasa: I use a port of CL format 2017-07-08T19:39:22Z wasamasa: what I really want is a port of C's printf 2017-07-08T19:39:59Z wasamasa: minus things that only make sense for C's typesystem 2017-07-08T19:41:08Z qu1j0t3: printf ports pretty well to static systems, actually. I've seen it implemented in Idris 2017-07-08T19:42:15Z LeoNerd: Ah yes, printf. The little dynamic sublanguage built into the otherwise fairly static language of C 2017-07-08T19:42:17Z qu1j0t3: which makes it a lot safer than it is in C (or scheme) hhaa 2017-07-08T19:43:09Z wasamasa: LeoNerd: exactly 2017-07-08T19:43:23Z wasamasa: LeoNerd: using snprintf for string manipulation is quite cute 2017-07-08T19:56:13Z nick8325 quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 25.1.1)) 2017-07-08T20:02:52Z jmd quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-08T20:03:03Z jmd joined #scheme 2017-07-08T20:04:30Z rianby64 joined #scheme 2017-07-08T20:14:07Z PinealGlandOptic left #scheme 2017-07-08T20:14:34Z akkad quit (Excess Flood) 2017-07-08T20:18:07Z akkad joined #scheme 2017-07-08T20:20:42Z jaziz quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-08T20:22:42Z rianby64 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-08T20:24:23Z rianby64 joined #scheme 2017-07-08T20:34:41Z jonaslund quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-08T20:40:05Z grublet joined #scheme 2017-07-08T20:40:28Z pjb quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-08T20:43:48Z rianby64 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-08T20:45:26Z jaziz joined #scheme 2017-07-08T20:45:34Z pjb joined #scheme 2017-07-08T20:46:56Z jmd quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-08T20:50:28Z pjb quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-08T20:58:19Z rianby64 joined #scheme 2017-07-08T21:02:07Z pjb joined #scheme 2017-07-08T21:02:10Z alezost quit (Quit: I live in GuixSD and Emacs ) 2017-07-08T21:02:21Z jonaslund joined #scheme 2017-07-08T21:31:09Z vicenteH quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-08T21:31:17Z vicenteH joined #scheme 2017-07-08T21:49:11Z zacts quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-08T21:50:33Z enderby joined #scheme 2017-07-08T21:51:58Z pjb quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-08T21:55:56Z narendraj9 quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-08T22:10:54Z LeoNerd: wasamasa: Only in C99 though; C89 forgot to include a snprint :/ 2017-07-08T22:30:08Z civodul` quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 25.2.1)) 2017-07-08T22:40:20Z Fare quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-08T22:49:07Z brendos joined #scheme 2017-07-08T22:50:08Z enderby left #scheme 2017-07-08T22:50:59Z Fare joined #scheme 2017-07-08T22:51:23Z pjb joined #scheme 2017-07-08T23:13:01Z pjb quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-08T23:16:45Z logicmoo quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-08T23:18:07Z pierpa joined #scheme 2017-07-08T23:18:38Z dmiles joined #scheme 2017-07-08T23:26:48Z sondr3 joined #scheme 2017-07-08T23:32:22Z sondr3 quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-08T23:34:56Z rianby64 quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-08T23:35:11Z Fare quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-08T23:35:24Z jonaslund quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-08T23:52:03Z vicenteH quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-08T23:52:15Z vicenteH joined #scheme 2017-07-09T00:05:25Z grublet quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-07-09T00:15:05Z jaziz quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-09T00:15:39Z nomicflux joined #scheme 2017-07-09T00:38:38Z lambda-11235 joined #scheme 2017-07-09T00:57:10Z sethalves joined #scheme 2017-07-09T01:10:19Z pierpa quit (Quit: Page closed) 2017-07-09T01:12:31Z nomicflux quit (Quit: nomicflux) 2017-07-09T01:18:11Z sleffy joined #scheme 2017-07-09T01:34:48Z ertes joined #scheme 2017-07-09T01:36:02Z nomicflux joined #scheme 2017-07-09T01:41:01Z X-Scale joined #scheme 2017-07-09T01:42:38Z sleffy quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2017-07-09T01:59:34Z grublet joined #scheme 2017-07-09T02:17:09Z badkins quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-09T02:27:56Z Fare joined #scheme 2017-07-09T02:55:20Z jaziz joined #scheme 2017-07-09T02:55:24Z ArneBab joined #scheme 2017-07-09T02:59:35Z ArneBab_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-09T03:09:49Z lanu joined #scheme 2017-07-09T03:32:50Z narendraj9 joined #scheme 2017-07-09T03:40:49Z wigust quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-07-09T03:45:21Z sleffy joined #scheme 2017-07-09T03:57:28Z gravicappa joined #scheme 2017-07-09T03:58:56Z mejja joined #scheme 2017-07-09T04:01:38Z mejja: CL's format is a disaster.. 2017-07-09T04:03:15Z jmd joined #scheme 2017-07-09T04:19:40Z pilne joined #scheme 2017-07-09T04:28:56Z narendraj9 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-09T04:34:37Z nomicflux quit (Quit: nomicflux) 2017-07-09T04:36:52Z Fare quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-09T04:40:34Z sz0 quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2017-07-09T04:46:54Z narendraj9 joined #scheme 2017-07-09T05:00:49Z narendraj9 quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-07-09T05:46:03Z pilne quit (Quit: Quitting!) 2017-07-09T06:02:34Z blt quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2017-07-09T06:14:41Z narendraj9 joined #scheme 2017-07-09T06:17:04Z sleffy quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-07-09T06:17:55Z jmd quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-09T06:18:10Z jmd joined #scheme 2017-07-09T06:27:06Z vtomole joined #scheme 2017-07-09T06:57:54Z Vceqy quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-07-09T07:05:17Z jmd quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-09T07:05:33Z jmd joined #scheme 2017-07-09T07:07:50Z lambda-11235 quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.9) 2017-07-09T07:43:27Z narendraj9 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-09T07:47:20Z narendraj9 joined #scheme 2017-07-09T07:55:04Z narendraj9 quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-07-09T08:03:15Z jonaslund joined #scheme 2017-07-09T08:28:51Z blt joined #scheme 2017-07-09T08:33:39Z lritter joined #scheme 2017-07-09T08:58:03Z narendraj9 joined #scheme 2017-07-09T09:00:55Z vtomole quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-09T09:38:56Z grublet quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-07-09T09:41:18Z rianby64 joined #scheme 2017-07-09T09:48:42Z jmd quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-09T09:52:01Z rianby64 quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2017-07-09T09:53:30Z rianby64 joined #scheme 2017-07-09T09:57:35Z rianby64 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-09T10:05:32Z rianby64 joined #scheme 2017-07-09T10:07:05Z narendraj9 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-09T10:10:04Z rianby64 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-09T10:26:28Z jonaslund quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2017-07-09T10:56:01Z jaziz quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-07-09T10:58:16Z sondr3 joined #scheme 2017-07-09T11:03:08Z sondr3 quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-07-09T11:20:13Z jackdaniel: it has its quirks indeed. Some alternatives were created though 2017-07-09T11:20:16Z jackdaniel: for instance http://www.cs.yale.edu/homes/dvm/format-stinks.html 2017-07-09T11:56:13Z jonaslund joined #scheme 2017-07-09T12:09:03Z wasamasa: interesting 2017-07-09T12:09:16Z wasamasa: I always found fmt heavy-weight and not worth the extra syntax 2017-07-09T12:11:03Z wasamasa: an alternative that's easy on the eyes for debug-style output looks cool 2017-07-09T12:11:22Z wasamasa: I don't need a fully-fledged format string for this and the out macro appears to cater for this usecase 2017-07-09T12:14:11Z brendos quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-09T12:15:27Z wasamasa: "The tendency of Lisp code to wander off to the right, then eventually back to the left, until it resembles the map of Vietnam." 2017-07-09T12:15:32Z wasamasa: :D 2017-07-09T12:18:58Z narendraj9 joined #scheme 2017-07-09T12:29:00Z Fare joined #scheme 2017-07-09T12:35:49Z vicenteH quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-09T12:36:15Z vicenteH 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seconds) 2017-07-10T09:31:03Z shinra-chiron_ joined #scheme 2017-07-10T09:33:34Z shinra-chiron quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-10T09:34:52Z qu1j0t3 joined #scheme 2017-07-10T09:51:44Z beekill quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-10T09:55:42Z jonaslund joined #scheme 2017-07-10T10:00:49Z lukeoftheaura joined #scheme 2017-07-10T10:01:34Z lukeoftheaura: I have a question about the little schemer book 2017-07-10T10:01:58Z C-Keen: which is? 2017-07-10T10:02:14Z lukeoftheaura: at the start of chapter 4 it defines functions for add1 and sub1, and then defines a recursive version of + using them 2017-07-10T10:02:25Z lukeoftheaura: and then uses that version of + for the rest of the chapter 2017-07-10T10:02:34Z lukeoftheaura: I don't really see the point of this 2017-07-10T10:07:25Z lukeoftheaura: also in the exercises with getting certain items from a list the functions are written to index the list at 1 2017-07-10T10:08:23Z C-Keen: using that instead of the standard defines? 2017-07-10T10:08:28Z gravicappa joined #scheme 2017-07-10T10:08:40Z lukeoftheaura: yes 2017-07-10T10:08:54Z lukeoftheaura: in the rest of the chapter it uses this different definition of + 2017-07-10T10:09:01Z lukeoftheaura: that uses a weird version of the symbol + 2017-07-10T10:09:06Z lukeoftheaura: as the function name 2017-07-10T10:46:51Z lukeoftheaura quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-07-10T11:19:43Z C-Keen: that's the author's style. I think the intent is to show how to build up functionality starting from simple basics. Also to bash the concept of recursion into the reader 2017-07-10T11:41:26Z lvo quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-10T12:04:31Z shinra-chiron_ is now known as shinra-chiron 2017-07-10T12:07:18Z Fare joined #scheme 2017-07-10T12:10:26Z nomicflux joined #scheme 2017-07-10T12:40:27Z brendos quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-10T12:41:36Z nomicflux quit (Quit: nomicflux) 2017-07-10T12:48:35Z nugnuts joined #scheme 2017-07-10T12:48:38Z nugnuts_ joined #scheme 2017-07-10T12:48:42Z nugnuts_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-10T12:50:46Z acarrico quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2017-07-10T13:12:05Z nckx quit (Quit: restarting my GuixSD server) 2017-07-10T13:13:49Z nckx joined #scheme 2017-07-10T13:32:25Z badkins joined #scheme 2017-07-10T13:38:39Z ChibaPet is now known as mason 2017-07-10T14:58:28Z blt`` joined #scheme 2017-07-10T14:59:27Z blt` quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-10T15:18:50Z daviid joined #scheme 2017-07-10T15:29:21Z Fare: does scheme define variadic multiple-values ? 2017-07-10T15:37:43Z badkins quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-10T15:47:16Z Riastradh joined #scheme 2017-07-10T15:49:52Z jcowan joined #scheme 2017-07-10T15:54:04Z arifuzzaman joined #scheme 2017-07-10T15:57:45Z blt``` joined #scheme 2017-07-10T15:57:53Z qu1j0t3: as return from a procedure? 2017-07-10T15:59:10Z blt`` quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-10T15:59:34Z civodul: Fare: it's symmetric to rest arguments 2017-07-10T16:00:19Z civodul quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 25.2.1)) 2017-07-10T16:01:06Z blt``` is now known as blt 2017-07-10T16:01:17Z Fare: is (let-values ((all (values 1 2 3)) all) supposed to work? 2017-07-10T16:02:33Z blt quit (Changing host) 2017-07-10T16:02:33Z blt joined #scheme 2017-07-10T16:03:50Z jcowan_ joined #scheme 2017-07-10T16:06:57Z jcowan quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-07-10T16:09:05Z Riastradh quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-07-10T16:10:13Z jaziz joined #scheme 2017-07-10T16:12:43Z 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I am trying to add up all the numbers in a list and get it's sum here: http://paste.lisp.org/display/350537 2017-07-11T03:37:59Z fluxd: I mean what I am doing wrong 2017-07-11T03:39:48Z pilne quit (Quit: Quitting!) 2017-07-11T03:41:47Z mason: fluxd: Write out the solution in English, on paper. 2017-07-11T03:42:12Z jmd joined #scheme 2017-07-11T03:42:21Z mason: fluxd: You're not thinking about recursion correctly. 2017-07-11T03:42:39Z mason: The solution is simpler than what you show there. 2017-07-11T03:42:54Z sleffy joined #scheme 2017-07-11T03:44:10Z fluxd: mason: thanks, looking 2017-07-11T03:46:38Z arifuzzaman quit (Quit: arifuzzaman) 2017-07-11T03:52:40Z mason: fluxd: Any luck? 2017-07-11T03:53:16Z jaziz quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-11T03:54:55Z fluxd: trying to write it in pseudocode like you said 2017-07-11T03:55:20Z mason: I said to write it out in English, not pseudocode. :P 2017-07-11T03:55:33Z nckx joined #scheme 2017-07-11T03:55:40Z fluxd: hah, okay 2017-07-11T03:55:54Z qu1j0t3: mason++ 2017-07-11T03:55:58Z qu1j0t3: mason++++++ 2017-07-11T03:56:13Z fluxd: its messing with my head, I am so not used to this and efff recursion 2017-07-11T03:58:00Z mason: You know you need a place to stop, and you've found one when you ask (null? lis). So, that's an answer. If the list is empty, your answer is zero, and you nailed that. If the list is not empty, you know you want to add the front of the list to the sum of the rest of the list, right? So that's recursion. 2017-07-11T03:58:22Z mason: And that's writing it out in English, and it's just that simple. 2017-07-11T03:58:32Z mason: fluxd: So, what's the front of the list? 2017-07-11T03:59:32Z fluxd: that wouls be (car list) ? 2017-07-11T03:59:36Z mason: Yep! 2017-07-11T03:59:50Z mason: So that's out of the way. We want to add that to the sum of the rest of the list. 2017-07-11T04:00:00Z mason: To make that simpler... What's the rest of the list? 2017-07-11T04:00:09Z fluxd: ( cdr list) 2017-07-11T04:00:14Z mason: Also correct. 2017-07-11T04:00:24Z mason: So, that's the rest of the list. What's the sum of the rest of the list? 2017-07-11T04:01:07Z mason: Don't get fancy. It's going to be striking how similar to the question it is. 2017-07-11T04:01:52Z fluxd: I am unsure if I am using cond the right way. is it basically if then else ? 2017-07-11T04:02:05Z mason: I didn't ask that. You said what the rest of the list is. 2017-07-11T04:02:11Z mason: So, what's the sum of the rest of the list? 2017-07-11T04:02:23Z mason: Don't worry about the conditional syntax yet. 2017-07-11T04:03:39Z fluxd: okay, sum of the rest of the list is listsum ( cdr ( cdr (list)) ? 2017-07-11T04:03:50Z mason: Very close. 2017-07-11T04:04:12Z mason: You said the rest of the list is (cdr list), right? 2017-07-11T04:04:19Z fluxd: yea 2017-07-11T04:04:29Z mason: So you're awfully close to the answer. 2017-07-11T04:04:36Z mason: You even realized we're going to use listsum to get it. 2017-07-11T04:05:03Z fluxd: wel yea, we need to break down the list and use recursion over and over 2017-07-11T04:05:03Z mason: So, if the sum of foo is (listsum foo), what's the sum of the rest of the list as you're defining it? 2017-07-11T04:05:16Z mason: Right, but the power is not breaking it down RIGHT NOW in your head. 2017-07-11T04:05:53Z mason: Flesh this out for me. If the sum of foo is (listsum foo), what's the sum of "the rest of the list" which you've already defined? 2017-07-11T04:07:07Z mason: fluxd: I've got to hit the sack soon, but don't overcomplicate it. 2017-07-11T04:07:36Z fluxd: I am drawing a blank here 2017-07-11T04:08:09Z mason: If the rest of the list is (cdr list) and the sum of foo is (listsum foo) you can probably surmise that the sum of the rest of the list is (listsum (cdr list)) right? 2017-07-11T04:08:24Z fluxd: yup 2017-07-11T04:09:09Z mason: So, if the list isn't empty, we want to add the front of the list to the sum of the rest of the list, right? 2017-07-11T04:09:59Z fluxd: yea 2017-07-11T04:10:46Z mason: So, you said what the front of the list is. And I just said what the sum of the rest of the list is. So, how do you add the two? 2017-07-11T04:11:51Z fluxd: OHHHHH, (+ (car list) listsum((cdr list))) ? 2017-07-11T04:12:05Z mason: Well. Yeah. Your parentheses are a little funny, but that's about right. 2017-07-11T04:12:21Z mason: (+ (car list) (listsum (cdr list))) 2017-07-11T04:12:37Z fluxd: oh I kept thinking I need to add the second element 2017-07-11T04:12:42Z fluxd: but I see the point now 2017-07-11T04:12:50Z mason: So, you know what to do if the list is empty - you return zero. If you know what to do if the list isn't empty - what we just said. 2017-07-11T04:13:02Z mason: And you know* 2017-07-11T04:13:16Z mason: The rest is knowing the syntax of cond or if or whatever. 2017-07-11T04:13:32Z mason: if is probably the cleaner-looking answer here 2017-07-11T04:14:53Z mason: fluxd: Here, a couple versions of the syntax: https://bpaste.net/show/561c9ac82509 2017-07-11T04:15:37Z fluxd: mason, thank you 2017-07-11T04:15:47Z Merv_ joined #scheme 2017-07-11T04:16:09Z mason: The "if" version more exactly matches the words you'd use to describe the thing, so I'd go for that. But the important lesson (which I suspect you don't believe yet) is to actually write it out in your native tongue. If it makes sense there, it'll make sense as code. 2017-07-11T04:16:35Z mason: And this holds true for any language, not just Lisp. 2017-07-11T04:17:26Z mason: Anyway, bedtime. 2017-07-11T04:17:28Z mason: o/ 2017-07-11T04:17:37Z fluxd: thanks a lot again 2017-07-11T04:17:41Z fluxd: I gotta say MIT scheme is the worst "ide". I don't even know how to type in it 2017-07-11T04:18:07Z fluxd: or maybe I am just too stupid 2017-07-11T04:18:43Z sleffy quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2017-07-11T04:18:50Z mason: Eh, you might have more fun with DrRacket. 2017-07-11T04:19:00Z fluxd: yep, had to learn to use that 2017-07-11T04:19:20Z mason: Or Emacs. 2017-07-11T04:19:28Z mason: Anyway. o/ 2017-07-11T04:19:33Z fluxd: good night mason 2017-07-11T04:25:30Z Vceqy: fluxd: have you used Edwin? 2017-07-11T04:26:33Z grublet2 joined #scheme 2017-07-11T04:26:41Z fluxd: Vceqy, I did try it but it felt too weird lol. 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Anyone know where I can read about that? 2017-07-11T10:43:41Z marrenarre: They would be implemented like so for the purpose of providing continuations as first-class citizens efficiently. 2017-07-11T10:57:06Z edgar-rft: marrenarre: the Google term is "stack frame". I myself haven't used Scheme for a while now, so there might be more knowledgeable people here who can help you better than me. The only (pretty old but free) link about Scheme internals I know is 2017-07-11T10:57:32Z juanfra quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-11T10:58:28Z juanfra joined #scheme 2017-07-11T10:59:07Z marrenarre: edgar-rft: Okay, thank you! 2017-07-11T11:21:34Z Murii joined #scheme 2017-07-11T11:27:27Z pjb joined #scheme 2017-07-11T11:28:55Z brendos joined #scheme 2017-07-11T11:32:29Z MrBusiness quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-11T11:33:26Z MrBusiness joined #scheme 2017-07-11T11:34:02Z Murii quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-11T11:55:53Z nomicflux joined #scheme 2017-07-11T12:19:41Z nomicflux quit (Quit: nomicflux) 2017-07-11T12:22:25Z aeth quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-07-11T12:31:16Z jonaslund quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-11T12:39:30Z nomicflux joined #scheme 2017-07-11T12:40:45Z nomicflux quit (Client Quit) 2017-07-11T12:57:20Z Murii joined #scheme 2017-07-11T13:11:38Z shinra-chiron_ is now known as shinra-chiron 2017-07-11T13:18:59Z 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Red edition? Yellow edition? 2017-07-12T19:12:01Z dorei joined #scheme 2017-07-12T19:15:04Z wasamasa: indigo edition 2017-07-12T19:36:27Z Merv_ joined #scheme 2017-07-12T19:38:24Z sethalves joined #scheme 2017-07-12T19:41:42Z wigust quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-12T19:45:37Z Riastradh quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-12T19:46:29Z civodul joined #scheme 2017-07-12T19:52:58Z jmd quit (Read error: No route to host) 2017-07-12T19:54:57Z jcowan_: Riastradh: The successively larger editions of R7RS-large. Red was for data structures, Orange is mostly for numbers but has some holdovers from Red, Yellow will be for syntax, etc. 2017-07-12T19:55:11Z jcowan_: The final edition is Ultra-violet, because at present it is entirely invisible. 2017-07-12T19:57:47Z Riastradh joined #scheme 2017-07-12T20:04:56Z jaziz joined #scheme 2017-07-12T20:09:27Z Merv_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-12T20:09:52Z jcowan joined #scheme 2017-07-12T20:12:17Z jcowan_ quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-07-12T20:12:31Z aeth joined #scheme 2017-07-12T20:24:56Z edgar-rft: bees can see ultra-violet, so it's not really invisible 2017-07-12T20:27:30Z jcowan: Bees are not Schemers 2017-07-12T20:50:54Z aeth: On the Internet, no one knows that you're a bee. 2017-07-12T20:56:32Z edgar-rft: to bee or not to bee, or something like that 2017-07-12T20:58:15Z jcowan: 2B|~2B=? 2017-07-12T21:02:57Z sethalves quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-12T21:04:48Z wigust joined #scheme 2017-07-12T21:06:40Z Merv_ joined #scheme 2017-07-12T21:32:22Z cemerick quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-07-12T21:40:25Z Merv_ quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2017-07-12T21:44:54Z aeth: (or 2b (not 2b)) 2017-07-12T21:45:23Z aeth: Can your non-s-expression language have variables with names like 2b? 2017-07-12T21:48:07Z jcowan: Well, Scheme cannot either 2017-07-12T21:48:10Z jcowan: or should not 2017-07-12T21:48:24Z jcowan: R[4567]RS don't allow it 2017-07-12T21:49:10Z aeth: (define 2b 42) ; works in Guile and Chicken, the only two I have installed at the moment until I can be bothered to reinstall the other 6 or so 2017-07-12T21:50:07Z justinethier quit (Quit: Page closed) 2017-07-12T21:50:23Z aeth: It also works in Common Lisp, the only non-Scheme Lisp I have installed at the moment. 2017-07-12T21:50:54Z aeth: I probably should have tested this in Chibi, it's much closer to the standards than most Schemes. 2017-07-12T21:52:19Z jcowan: Yeah, they just assume anything that isn't a number must be a symbol/identifier 2017-07-12T21:52:42Z jcowan: The trouble with that is, we can never add any new formats of numbers such as 32+45i+26j+99k 2017-07-12T21:52:52Z aeth: hmm, I actually have kawa installed at the moment, too. It also accepts (define 2b 42) 2017-07-12T21:53:00Z aeth: Nice quaternion example 2017-07-12T21:53:12Z jcowan: > (define 2d 42) 2017-07-12T21:53:12Z jcowan: ERROR on line 1: digitless numeric literal 2017-07-12T21:53:15Z jcowan: (chibi) 2017-07-12T22:00:01Z Riastradh quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-07-12T22:03:06Z pilne joined #scheme 2017-07-12T22:10:27Z CORDIC: I find ``2+3i'' offending in Lisp. Why not simply ``(Complex 2 3)'' (or similar)?! 2017-07-12T22:11:44Z nisstyre: isn't it a reader macro? 2017-07-12T22:12:24Z nisstyre: or maybe it depends on your implementation 2017-07-12T22:12:27Z CORDIC: I think so. Even if it is just a reader macro it is still offending :) . 2017-07-12T22:12:41Z nisstyre: I don't mind it because I never use them 2017-07-12T22:12:55Z nisstyre: but I guess if you're doing physics or certain kinds of math you might 2017-07-12T22:13:01Z CORDIC: How to disable them? 2017-07-12T22:13:05Z nisstyre: I'm guessing that's why they did it, because those people like it 2017-07-12T22:16:26Z jcowan: CORDIC: Do you find 3/5 equally offensive? If not, why not? 2017-07-12T22:16:35Z CORDIC: It's simply cancer. As is ``2/3'' :) . And ``1E-3'', ``1.0'', ``-1'' and ``10'' :) . Where to draw the line? 2017-07-12T22:16:47Z CORDIC: xD 2017-07-12T22:18:57Z cemerick joined #scheme 2017-07-12T22:19:01Z JoshS quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-12T22:19:43Z edgar-rft: (define bee (lambda () (read 'ultra-violet-edition))) 2017-07-12T22:22:34Z pjb quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-12T22:22:58Z nisstyre: yeah you should do all your math with cons cells 2017-07-12T22:23:02Z nisstyre: anything else is heresy 2017-07-12T22:23:31Z jcowan: I think Scheme has a good balance: it accepts standard mathematical notations plus the E notation 2017-07-12T22:23:57Z edgar-rft: just switch to binary numbers, inside a computer there are no other numbers 2017-07-12T22:23:59Z jcowan: R7RS no longer requires support for S, F, D, L notations 2017-07-12T22:24:25Z jcowan: as only a few Schemes have more than one kind of inexact numbers 2017-07-12T22:26:23Z jcowan: only Racket, NexJ, and Kawa 2017-07-12T22:32:36Z jaziz quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-12T22:32:56Z jaziz joined #scheme 2017-07-12T22:35:02Z gnomon quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-12T22:35:03Z stamourv quit (Ping timeout: 251 seconds) 2017-07-12T22:35:04Z jackdaniel quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-12T22:35:09Z kbtr quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-12T22:35:10Z lucasem quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-12T22:35:10Z stamourv joined #scheme 2017-07-12T22:35:12Z jackdaniel joined #scheme 2017-07-12T22:35:16Z gnomon joined #scheme 2017-07-12T22:35:23Z kbtr joined #scheme 2017-07-12T22:36:38Z Merv_ joined #scheme 2017-07-12T22:40:18Z lucasem joined #scheme 2017-07-12T22:41:58Z brendos joined #scheme 2017-07-12T23:00:27Z ertes joined #scheme 2017-07-12T23:05:05Z cemerick quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-12T23:10:21Z Merv_ quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-12T23:12:49Z aeth: Distinguishing between single-float and double-float has its uses. short-float is rare, and imprecise because is it a legacy short-float designed to be fast in 32 bit or is it IEEE half-float? 2017-07-12T23:14:24Z aeth: long-float has issues, too. Is it just a double, anyway? (In most CLs it is.) Is it IEEE quadruple precision float (some hardware supports this)? Intel 80-bit extended float? Arbitrary precision float? 2017-07-12T23:16:06Z aeth: The main reason why you'd want a single-float is that it's more performant (and on 64-bit, potentially unboxed) where you can get away with using it (e.g. most parts of a game engine) 2017-07-12T23:26:53Z jcowan: http://trac.sacrideo.us/wg/wiki/FloatPrecision <-- various Scheme and CL implementations and what they do with S, D, F, and L 2017-07-12T23:31:31Z sethalves joined #scheme 2017-07-12T23:33:47Z jaziz quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-12T23:34:58Z aeth: cool 2017-07-12T23:38:40Z jcowan quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-12T23:38:40Z pierpa joined #scheme 2017-07-12T23:44:20Z civodul quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 25.2.1)) 2017-07-12T23:48:59Z daviid joined #scheme 2017-07-12T23:51:58Z cemerick joined #scheme 2017-07-13T00:06:49Z Merv_ joined #scheme 2017-07-13T00:17:16Z lambda-11235 joined #scheme 2017-07-13T00:19:48Z leppie quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-13T00:22:30Z JoshS joined #scheme 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2017-07-13T17:57:12Z AJavaIdiot joined #scheme 2017-07-13T18:00:40Z AJavaIdiot: Hi. I'm having trouble understanding a call/cc example, could someone help me? 2017-07-13T18:00:48Z AJavaIdiot: The example is the first one here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Continuation#Examples 2017-07-13T18:01:17Z taylan joined #scheme 2017-07-13T18:02:15Z AJavaIdiot: I don't understand why (the-continuation) evaluates to 2 and not 1. As I understand it, calling the continuation should resume execution at the point of its creation, but when the continuation was created, i was 0. Should it not still be 0 (and then +1'd) in subsequent calls? 2017-07-13T18:05:55Z badkins joined #scheme 2017-07-13T18:12:53Z jmd quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-13T18:13:16Z pilne joined #scheme 2017-07-13T18:13:52Z jmd joined #scheme 2017-07-13T18:15:49Z pjb joined #scheme 2017-07-13T18:23:07Z Guest24 joined #scheme 2017-07-13T18:24:11Z jcowan: AJavaIdiot: No, it's incremented to 1 the first time we pass through the body of the let 2017-07-13T18:24:57Z AJavaIdiot: But shouldn't that "be forgotten" the next time you're passing through the body? jcowan 2017-07-13T18:25:02Z jcowan: The call/cc captures the continuation in k, stores it in the-continuation, and returns to its continuation, which is the end of the `test` function. 2017-07-13T18:25:25Z jcowan: When you reinvoke (the-continuation), we jump into the middle of the let just before the set!. 2017-07-13T18:28:02Z AJavaIdiot: But I don't understand how "jumping" to just before the set! doesn't mean i is 0 again 2017-07-13T18:28:25Z AJavaIdiot: I guess my question is: Why is i still 1 when we invoke the-continuation the first time? 2017-07-13T18:28:28Z jaziz joined #scheme 2017-07-13T18:29:38Z AJavaIdiot: I thought call/cc captured the current environment in the continuation, so to speak. So when we use that continuation, we should see an environment where i = 0. 2017-07-13T18:32:50Z aeth joined #scheme 2017-07-13T18:36:13Z jcowan: No, because set! mutates the captured environment. 2017-07-13T18:37:46Z weinholt: from an implementor's perspective: variables that you use set! on are usually stored in some sort of cells (a pointer to a location on the heap), so that e.g. multiple closures will be able to see each other's updates. so call/cc would capture the pointer, but the location stays the same 2017-07-13T18:37:58Z AJavaIdiot: oh 2017-07-13T18:38:46Z AJavaIdiot: So the continuation doesn't capture a copy of the environment at creation time. It copies the actual environment, so any changes that come will be seen too. 2017-07-13T18:39:00Z AJavaIdiot: Sort of like a pointer in C 2017-07-13T18:39:16Z AJavaIdiot: I thought it'd be something like. 2017-07-13T18:39:40Z AJavaIdiot: env1 2017-07-13T18:39:48Z AJavaIdiot: call/cc copies it 2017-07-13T18:39:56Z AJavaIdiot: env1 becomes env2 after the set! 2017-07-13T18:40:15Z AJavaIdiot: env2 gets trashed after (test) finishes executing and later calls to the-continuation use env1 2017-07-13T18:40:39Z AJavaIdiot: But that's not the case. Thanks guys 2017-07-13T18:45:43Z jcowan: However if you extended the environment with let (or similar) inside the call/cc function, that would *not* be captured. 2017-07-13T18:51:46Z AJavaIdiot: I guess that makes sense, yeah 2017-07-13T18:52:52Z AJavaIdiot: That's the normal behaviour I'd expect, so an enveloping function can't see a nested one's definitions and stuff 2017-07-13T18:58:25Z AJavaIdiot quit (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.93 [Firefox 54.0.1/20170628075643]) 2017-07-13T19:06:09Z jcowan quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-07-13T19:06:24Z Merv_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-13T19:10:28Z pjb quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-13T19:13:41Z brendos joined #scheme 2017-07-13T19:29:12Z alexshendi joined #scheme 2017-07-13T19:31:33Z z9q7tui quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-13T19:35:38Z jaziz quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-13T19:37:03Z blt joined #scheme 2017-07-13T19:45:52Z jonaslund quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-07-13T19:49:10Z jmd` 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joined #scheme 2017-07-14T12:34:21Z Arnot quit (Quit: Page closed) 2017-07-14T12:45:35Z brendos quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-14T12:45:57Z Ojd joined #scheme 2017-07-14T12:47:24Z motersen joined #scheme 2017-07-14T12:49:48Z motersen quit (Client Quit) 2017-07-14T12:51:14Z Ojd: Hey, does anyone know if there is a Structure and Interpretation of Computer Programs (SICP) irc channel? 2017-07-14T12:53:08Z jackdaniel: I don't think there is, it's just a single book 2017-07-14T12:53:20Z jackdaniel: very good book one, but still 2017-07-14T12:53:33Z jackdaniel: s/good book one/good one/ 2017-07-14T12:53:49Z Ojd: just wondering, I have some questions about it 2017-07-14T12:53:51Z motersen joined #scheme 2017-07-14T12:54:38Z jackdaniel: I think that your best bet would be asking them here and waiting patiently for someone who knows the answer / cares to share this knowledge 2017-07-14T12:55:00Z C-Keen: just ask them here? 2017-07-14T12:55:19Z Ojd: I had that idea, but wanted to confirm if there is another place to start 2017-07-14T12:55:50Z Ojd: I was watching the video lectures and everything was fine up to number 5 2017-07-14T12:55:57Z Ojd: when they introduced the assignments 2017-07-14T12:56:15Z Ojd: the concept of time, the environment and the side effects 2017-07-14T12:57:48Z Ojd: the lecture 5B describes computational objects, and it looks to me like Objected Oriented Programming, in the sense that you want to group things together and then use them as primitives 2017-07-14T12:58:02Z motersen quit (Client Quit) 2017-07-14T12:58:15Z Ojd: but I don't know if that is the point of the lecture 2017-07-14T13:10:36Z mbrock joined #scheme 2017-07-14T13:14:38Z brendos joined #scheme 2017-07-14T13:15:52Z daviid quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-14T13:17:13Z jackdaniel: the point of that is to show, that you may go very far without these things (chapter 5 - how many amazing things have you seen before the assignment was introduced - something most people believe you can't program)? 2017-07-14T13:24:43Z alezost quit (Quit: I live in GuixSD and Emacs ) 2017-07-14T13:26:12Z Steverman quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-14T13:34:50Z Ojd: so assignment is just to make things easier and to deal with actions in time (queues), but is just another tool in the belt 2017-07-14T13:48:01Z dbmikus joined #scheme 2017-07-14T13:51:14Z Ojd: another question, do you know any open source project using scheme? (I would like to see a professional scheme code) 2017-07-14T13:52:05Z Murii quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-14T13:52:32Z jackdaniel: nanopass compiler has been extended and it is written in scheme afair 2017-07-14T13:52:44Z cromachina quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-14T13:52:53Z jackdaniel: https://github.com/akeep/nanopass-framework 2017-07-14T13:53:57Z ski quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-14T13:53:58Z Ojd: jackdaniel: thanks! 2017-07-14T14:28:54Z Vceqy joined #scheme 2017-07-14T15:07:55Z badkins joined #scheme 2017-07-14T15:10:37Z Ojd: jackdaniel: if I am correct, last week when we talked you said that you used GNU /MIT Scheme, right? 2017-07-14T15:10:56Z jackdaniel: I'm a Common Lisp programmer mostly 2017-07-14T15:11:57Z jackdaniel: chicken, guile and racket would be my picks I think (racket is a system on its own terms, but it supports shceme too) 2017-07-14T15:14:32Z Ojd: I am checking Common Lisp official site 2017-07-14T15:14:53Z Ojd: Steel bank or Clozure? 2017-07-14T15:15:21Z jackdaniel: if you are interested in Common Lisp you may join #lisp channel, I don't think it would be polite to discuss it here 2017-07-14T15:16:01Z jackdaniel: I've send you message on query 2017-07-14T15:17:45Z Ojd: Oh, sorry about that 2017-07-14T15:17:47Z Ojd: you are right 2017-07-14T15:23:05Z Riastradh quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-14T15:33:23Z sethalves quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-14T15:39:27Z vicenteH quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-14T15:40:37Z jcowan: CL discussion is perfectly legitimate. CL advocacy against Scheme would be a Bad Thing here. 2017-07-14T15:43:34Z Riastradh joined #scheme 2017-07-14T15:48:34Z alezost joined #scheme 2017-07-14T15:52:18Z greatscottttt quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.5) 2017-07-14T16:00:40Z qu1j0t3: +1 2017-07-14T16:01:37Z Riastradh quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-07-14T16:01:42Z qu1j0t3: (to the first part) 2017-07-14T16:21:43Z sethalves joined #scheme 2017-07-14T16:26:06Z jmd joined #scheme 2017-07-14T16:43:12Z jmd` joined #scheme 2017-07-14T16:51:19Z gravicappa joined #scheme 2017-07-14T17:01:45Z teurastaja joined #scheme 2017-07-14T17:02:29Z Menche quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-14T17:02:37Z Menche joined #scheme 2017-07-14T17:05:53Z Menche quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-14T17:06:09Z Menche joined #scheme 2017-07-14T17:06:53Z teurastaja: im trying to define haskells fmap in C 2017-07-14T17:06:59Z teurastaja: any ideas? 2017-07-14T17:12:19Z alezost quit (Quit: I live in GuixSD and Emacs ) 2017-07-14T17:13:33Z terpri quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-14T17:13:42Z qu1j0t3: erm. 2017-07-14T17:13:53Z qu1j0t3: without closures? 2017-07-14T17:14:21Z qu1j0t3: the generally employed idea here would probably be to Greenspun all the infrastructure you need to do that sanely... 2017-07-14T17:22:55Z gravicappa quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-14T17:25:05Z wigust quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-14T17:27:44Z jmd` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-14T18:02:19Z Riastradh joined #scheme 2017-07-14T18:03:28Z jcowan quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2017-07-14T18:16:52Z Merv_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-14T18:27:21Z teurastaja quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-07-14T18:29:32Z ertes joined #scheme 2017-07-14T18:35:38Z jaziz joined #scheme 2017-07-14T18:37:03Z jcowan joined #scheme 2017-07-14T18:37:36Z jcowan quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-14T18:45:45Z akkad: qu1j0t3: it's actually 1+ 2017-07-14T18:47:01Z qu1j0t3: if you're lucky enough to have it 2017-07-14T19:03:18Z vicenteH joined #scheme 2017-07-14T19:04:10Z jonaslund quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-14T19:05:12Z jonaslund joined #scheme 2017-07-14T19:07:22Z sz0 joined #scheme 2017-07-14T19:09:31Z terpri joined #scheme 2017-07-14T19:09:50Z jaziz quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-14T19:16:15Z pilne joined #scheme 2017-07-14T19:18:49Z z0d: is libguile available in Guile 2.0? I couldn't find gv_eval_str in the C sources 2017-07-14T19:19:18Z z0d: anyway, my problem is that I want to use libguile.so to eval Scheme expressions 2017-07-14T19:42:17Z jaziz joined #scheme 2017-07-14T19:57:23Z Labu joined #scheme 2017-07-14T19:58:25Z Ojd quit (Quit: http://www.kiwiirc.com/ - A hand crafted IRC client) 2017-07-14T19:58:31Z Labu: hello are there gauche users here ? 2017-07-14T19:59:23Z Merv_ joined #scheme 2017-07-14T19:59:33Z Labu: How can I install a module without root user ? is there a conventional emplacment for this purpose ? 2017-07-14T19:59:50Z cemerick quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-14T20:00:53Z cemerick joined #scheme 2017-07-14T20:01:08Z grublet joined #scheme 2017-07-14T20:02:09Z motersen joined #scheme 2017-07-14T20:03:23Z wasamasa: the traditional way for this is to install software into a location your user is allowed to write to 2017-07-14T20:03:39Z wasamasa: this works independently of the scheme implementation, I do this for CHICKEN just fine 2017-07-14T20:07:10Z cemerick quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-14T20:07:26Z cemerick joined #scheme 2017-07-14T20:08:57Z terpri quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-14T20:09:14Z Labu: hello wasamasa yes finally I just have to launch gosh -I . from the directory for using module 2017-07-14T20:09:32Z wasamasa: that's not what I mean 2017-07-14T20:09:44Z wasamasa: install the scheme system into a user-writable location 2017-07-14T20:10:44Z mmc joined #scheme 2017-07-14T20:11:50Z Labu: did you mean the entire scheme interpreter ? 2017-07-14T20:11:56Z wasamasa: yes 2017-07-14T20:12:32Z Vceqy quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-07-14T20:12:36Z Labu: ok 2017-07-14T20:13:16Z kammd quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2017-07-14T20:13:23Z terpri joined #scheme 2017-07-14T20:13:34Z Labu: with gosh we can include any directory in search path with -I 2017-07-14T20:15:37Z motersen quit (Quit: leaving) 2017-07-14T20:18:05Z jmd quit (Remote host closed the connection) 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jonaslund quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-16T10:54:40Z Steverman joined #scheme 2017-07-16T11:03:39Z jonaslund joined #scheme 2017-07-16T11:04:42Z madmuppet006 joined #scheme 2017-07-16T11:12:26Z madmuppet006: any chance someone can have a look at my currying problem at https://pastebin.com/S5uKB1BB and let me know how I can improve thanks 2017-07-16T11:43:03Z grublet quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-16T11:57:33Z jonaslund quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-16T12:01:09Z jcowan joined #scheme 2017-07-16T12:01:28Z pjb: madmuppet006: scheme doesn't do currying automatically. Ie. it doesn't distribute arguments to curryed functions. 2017-07-16T12:01:52Z pjb: If you want to flatten lambdas, you have to move the parameters in a single parameter list (lambda-list is the technical historic name). 2017-07-16T12:03:15Z jmd quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-16T12:03:22Z pjb: Now, in your case, it will depend on the function returned by y, since this is the function that gets your flattened arguments. 2017-07-16T12:03:38Z pjb: ie. you should show us your source for y. 2017-07-16T12:04:10Z pjb: Probably y returns a functiojn that takes only 2 arguments. Instead, you could write it so that it takes any number of arguments. 2017-07-16T12:04:24Z pjb: (define y (lambda (f . args) … (lambda args …))) 2017-07-16T12:11:07Z pilne joined #scheme 2017-07-16T12:18:33Z aeth quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-16T12:28:33Z jmd` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-16T12:44:30Z jonaslund joined #scheme 2017-07-16T12:46:14Z workp joined #scheme 2017-07-16T12:46:44Z workp quit (Client Quit) 2017-07-16T13:03:12Z vicenteH quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-16T13:31:32Z aeth joined #scheme 2017-07-16T13:35:51Z amoe quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-16T13:40:48Z wigust quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-16T13:42:00Z wigust joined #scheme 2017-07-16T13:46:09Z brendos quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-07-16T13:47:35Z lritter joined #scheme 2017-07-16T13:58:44Z mmc quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2017-07-16T14:08:23Z vicenteH joined #scheme 2017-07-16T14:14:27Z dbmikus joined #scheme 2017-07-16T14:15:14Z cemerick joined #scheme 2017-07-16T14:41:48Z jmd joined #scheme 2017-07-16T14:43:05Z jmd` joined #scheme 2017-07-16T14:44:13Z Vceqy joined #scheme 2017-07-16T14:45:28Z jmd` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-16T14:47:43Z Steverman quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-07-16T14:50:22Z amoe joined #scheme 2017-07-16T14:50:33Z cemerick quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-16T14:55:48Z jonaslund quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-16T15:50:55Z jmd` joined #scheme 2017-07-16T15:51:09Z daviid joined #scheme 2017-07-16T16:01:45Z amz3``: any feedback on database work using scheme? 2017-07-16T16:01:55Z amz3``: any database abstraction that you find better than ssql? 2017-07-16T16:02:26Z amz3``: outside roll-your-own-database because that's what I am doing 2017-07-16T16:04:57Z pjb quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-16T16:11:23Z pjb joined #scheme 2017-07-16T16:17:12Z pjb quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-16T16:20:40Z badkins joined #scheme 2017-07-16T16:24:52Z amz3`` is now known as amz3` 2017-07-16T16:38:23Z wasamasa: amz3`: are you an ally of BW^-? 2017-07-16T16:39:02Z wasamasa: amz3`: the best database abstraction remains sql and relational databases remain king 2017-07-16T16:42:37Z amz3`: wasamasa: kesako BW^-? 2017-07-16T16:42:54Z amz3`: what is BW^-? 2017-07-16T16:43:19Z CORDIC: You can search for that nick in logs for past few days. 2017-07-16T16:43:44Z wasamasa: amz3`: someone pestering the channel on garbage collection techniques for creating a nosql database in scheme 2017-07-16T16:44:11Z wasamasa: amz3`: another thing you two have in common is asking the channel what we think of datomic 2017-07-16T16:44:27Z amz3`: that's not me 2017-07-16T16:44:34Z amz3`: I don't have the logs 2017-07-16T16:44:47Z amz3`: oh they are public logs 2017-07-16T16:53:43Z jcowan quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-16T17:00:58Z amz3`: BW is missing the point, automatic GC in a immutable database is not something that is useful actually 2017-07-16T17:02:37Z wasamasa: you should duel each other 2017-07-16T17:02:53Z amz3`: I mean that GC is useful, but not automatic GC, GC in an immutable database requires an application level API 2017-07-16T17:03:04Z amz3`: obviously 2017-07-16T17:04:07Z wasamasa: from what he wrote on #lisp, I can only deduce that he doesn't know what he actually wants because the requirements are really weird 2017-07-16T17:04:20Z amz3`: I can duel 'polymorph self' too ;) 2017-07-16T17:04:23Z wasamasa: terabytes of storage, but only minimal RAM allowed for processing them? 2017-07-16T17:05:04Z amz3`: I think we wants to tackle the live memory vs on disk transparency thing 2017-07-16T17:05:19Z amz3`: s/we/she or he/ 2017-07-16T17:07:08Z amz3`: basically the problem boils down to the fact, that data is either in memory or on disk, you can't have a data, that is persisted to disk magically and magically loaded in RAM when you need it 2017-07-16T17:08:10Z amz3`: you cross the memory/disk barrier explicitly, there is still not magic around it 2017-07-16T17:08:20Z ecraven: amz3`: why can you not have that? 2017-07-16T17:08:23Z amz3`: like you can't magically cross network in most languages 2017-07-16T17:08:29Z ecraven: erlang can :D 2017-07-16T17:09:01Z Steverman joined #scheme 2017-07-16T17:09:16Z amz3`: yeah, but erlang has a very specific semantic about it. You have to serialize the process and send it to another network. You similarly don't have a shared memory accord the network ouside some kind of (mutable) database 2017-07-16T17:09:45Z amz3`: s/accord/across/ 2017-07-16T17:09:49Z sethalves quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-07-16T17:10:06Z wasamasa: you could of course fake it by accessing a chunk of the data at once and only providing a lazy API 2017-07-16T17:10:11Z arifuzzaman joined #scheme 2017-07-16T17:10:40Z amz3`: wasamasa: I am not sure I understand what you mean. 2017-07-16T17:11:09Z wasamasa: assuming you provide a service for zipping through a dataset on disk 2017-07-16T17:11:11Z ecraven: amz3`: how is paging in memory any different than what you described? 2017-07-16T17:11:20Z amz3`: but in erlang, AFAIK, the way you interact with mutable data is via messaging another process so you don't really care where the actual data lives in the network 2017-07-16T17:11:24Z wasamasa: instead of giving the user the whole data set at once, you give him only a chunk at a time 2017-07-16T17:11:39Z wasamasa: and therefore keep memory usage relatively low 2017-07-16T17:13:41Z wasamasa: now, the question is why the heck you need a database for that 2017-07-16T17:13:50Z wasamasa: C programmers do this kind of thing without even giving it a thought 2017-07-16T17:13:56Z deep-book-gk_ joined #scheme 2017-07-16T17:15:10Z amz3`: yes, it's an memory pagination issue 2017-07-16T17:15:29Z deep-book-gk_ left #scheme 2017-07-16T17:15:30Z amz3`: right now, pagination is not automatic for high level datastructure, it only works for pages of continuous data 2017-07-16T17:16:11Z amz3`: that's what the database does, it offers a framework for keeping in memory and managing "complex" data structures 2017-07-16T17:18:24Z amz3`: nowdays there is no automatic way to handle data persistence, there is a frontier that steems from hardware that can not be crossed automagically at the application layer 2017-07-16T17:18:33Z amz3`: at least that's my current thinking 2017-07-16T17:18:54Z wasamasa: I wish you 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2017-07-17T17:58:52Z jonaslund quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-17T17:59:00Z jonaslund_ is now known as jonaslund 2017-07-17T18:16:34Z jojeojoejo joined #scheme 2017-07-17T18:16:39Z jojeojoejo: ok 2017-07-17T18:17:06Z jojeojoejo: theres 2 major lisp dialects right scheme and commonlisp? 2017-07-17T18:19:02Z wasamasa: wrong 2017-07-17T18:19:12Z wasamasa: there exists more elisp than CL on github 2017-07-17T18:19:29Z wasamasa: also, clojure is more relevant than CL in the commercial space 2017-07-17T18:19:37Z aeth quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2017-07-17T18:19:39Z jojeojoejo: ok how many major types of lisp are there 2017-07-17T18:19:48Z qu1j0t3: define 'major' 2017-07-17T18:19:50Z jojeojoejo: do you have to learn all of them? 2017-07-17T18:19:52Z qu1j0t3: no 2017-07-17T18:20:02Z qu1j0t3: or indeed, any 2017-07-17T18:20:35Z jojeojoejo: ok if you learn 1, is it easy to learn the others? 2017-07-17T18:20:37Z Riastradh: According to rule 7.3.8.132, you are obligated to learn at least six of them as part of your mandatory computing service, unless you have a certified medical exemption. Conscientious objection is not recognized. 2017-07-17T18:20:44Z qu1j0t3: jojeojoejo: "easier", probably yes. 2017-07-17T18:21:01Z qu1j0t3: jojeojoejo: since moving around in a paradigm is generallly easier than leaping from one to another. 2017-07-17T18:21:14Z wasamasa: what paradigm? 2017-07-17T18:21:47Z jojeojoejo: qu1j0t3: like minimal effort or sth? reading land of lisp now 2017-07-17T18:21:54Z qu1j0t3: jojeojoejo: what's your objective? 2017-07-17T18:22:02Z jojeojoejo: idk learning and fun i guess 2017-07-17T18:22:07Z jojeojoejo: i also want to read sicp after 2017-07-17T18:22:10Z Riastradh: I, I...I always wanted to be...a Lisperjack! Leaping from paradigm to paradigm, the great Franz Pine, the tall SBCL, the... 2017-07-17T18:22:14Z wasamasa: jojeojoejo: if you put in as much effort into learning lisp as in typing, I have bad news for you 2017-07-17T18:22:17Z qu1j0t3: jojeojoejo: sicp focuses on scheme. 2017-07-17T18:22:23Z jojeojoejo: k? 2017-07-17T18:22:33Z wasamasa: I've seen elisp code from people who only used clojure before 2017-07-17T18:23:01Z jojeojoejo: but its all still parenthesis stuff -_- 2017-07-17T18:23:17Z jojeojoejo: ok so should i just do sicp, i thought it would be easier if i knew lisp 2017-07-17T18:23:21Z wasamasa: that's about as ignorant as calling JS and java the same because they have C-like syntax 2017-07-17T18:23:29Z jojeojoejo: bah 2017-07-17T18:23:44Z wasamasa: I've yet to meet someone who finished SICP :P 2017-07-17T18:23:57Z wasamasa: I'm at chapter #2 myself 2017-07-17T18:24:00Z qu1j0t3: same 2017-07-17T18:24:15Z jojeojoejo: im near the end of 1 2017-07-17T18:24:27Z jojeojoejo: did it long back tho 2017-07-17T18:24:51Z jojeojoejo: and why havent you met anyone who did? wtf, 2017-07-17T18:24:54Z jojeojoejo: wasamasa: 2017-07-17T18:25:21Z wasamasa: it's because more people yap about how great the book is than actually solve the exercises 2017-07-17T18:25:27Z jojeojoejo: and which thing do you use to evaluate scheme? the guile thing? 2017-07-17T18:25:35Z jojeojoejo: lol 2017-07-17T18:26:04Z wasamasa: then there is the special kind of person who visits #scheme to question how great SICP is, I've collected a few dozen quotes from them 2017-07-17T18:26:16Z jojeojoejo: also how do you debug things easily? in gdb i can just step through etc for C. what can i do for scheme? 2017-07-17T18:26:23Z wasamasa: stare at the code 2017-07-17T18:26:36Z jojeojoejo: lol 2017-07-17T18:26:39Z jojeojoejo: no! 2017-07-17T18:26:44Z jojeojoejo: HOW TO DEBUG 2017-07-17T18:26:58Z wasamasa: oh and printf 2017-07-17T18:27:03Z jojeojoejo: :/ 2017-07-17T18:27:09Z jojeojoejo: just printf? 2017-07-17T18:27:17Z wasamasa: staring at the code and printf 2017-07-17T18:27:24Z jojeojoejo: wow seems tedious 2017-07-17T18:27:26Z jojeojoejo: :< 2017-07-17T18:27:36Z wasamasa: scheme programs are comparably small and high-level, so it works 2017-07-17T18:27:39Z jojeojoejo: wtf is that trace thing couldnt figure it out 2017-07-17T18:27:51Z jojeojoejo: hmm ok;_; 2017-07-17T18:27:54Z wasamasa: there are implementations with debuggers 2017-07-17T18:28:05Z jojeojoejo: i want to use emacs tho 2017-07-17T18:28:08Z jojeojoejo: because! 2017-07-17T18:28:20Z wasamasa: I've been asked to do an emacs frontend for such an implementation 2017-07-17T18:28:36Z jojeojoejo: o that sounds coplex:o 2017-07-17T18:28:40Z jojeojoejo: ur a smart guy 2017-07-17T18:28:47Z jojeojoejo: complex* 2017-07-17T18:28:50Z wasamasa: it sounds anything else than fun 2017-07-17T18:28:54Z jojeojoejo: lol 2017-07-17T18:29:00Z jojeojoejo: ok so fucking printf 2017-07-17T18:29:03Z jojeojoejo: and stare 2017-07-17T18:29:15Z wasamasa: I tried figuring out its new debugger, but gave up 2017-07-17T18:29:37Z jojeojoejo: googled it says display instead of printf 2017-07-17T18:29:39Z jojeojoejo: but ok! 2017-07-17T18:29:50Z wasamasa: well, scheme systems typically have extensions 2017-07-17T18:29:54Z jojeojoejo: do you think i should do land of lisp after? it has nice cartoons 2017-07-17T18:30:02Z jojeojoejo: extensions? 2017-07-17T18:30:13Z wigust quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-07-17T18:30:17Z wasamasa: IMO land of lisp is really bad if you want to actually learn something from it 2017-07-17T18:30:32Z wasamasa: it's more of a collection of cool things someone wrote and turned into a book 2017-07-17T18:30:38Z jojeojoejo: hmm ok, which books are good 2017-07-17T18:30:47Z jojeojoejo: lol 2017-07-17T18:31:57Z wasamasa: PCL is the better book for CL 2017-07-17T18:32:31Z jojeojoejo: ok practical cl ty 2017-07-17T18:32:40Z jojeojoejo: did you ever make anything with lisp tho? 2017-07-17T18:33:16Z wasamasa: I wrote emacs packages, write CLI stuff and web apps with scheme and write clojure at work 2017-07-17T18:33:25Z wasamasa: the only one I didn't really try yet is CL 2017-07-17T18:34:37Z jojeojoejo: which emacs packages 2017-07-17T18:34:39Z jojeojoejo: >.> 2017-07-17T18:35:00Z wasamasa: https://github.com/wasamasa?utf8=✓&tab=repositories&q=&type=&language=emacs%20lisp 2017-07-17T18:35:15Z jojeojoejo: hmm so there are jobs where you wrist lisp then:o 2017-07-17T18:35:44Z wasamasa: I've tried out a few other lisp dialects for fun, like MAL and picolisp 2017-07-17T18:36:28Z jojeojoejo: did you like them? 2017-07-17T18:37:02Z wasamasa: I'm considering to use MAL for a bigger project, but that will have to wait until I get better at C 2017-07-17T18:37:31Z jojeojoejo: C is ez 2017-07-17T18:37:43Z jojeojoejo: someone recommended a book, k&r 2017-07-17T18:37:50Z jojeojoejo: kunth and richie have you done that? 2017-07-17T18:37:55Z jojeojoejo: >.> 2017-07-17T18:38:03Z jojeojoejo: or sth i think 2017-07-17T18:38:04Z wasamasa: of course not 2017-07-17T18:38:08Z jojeojoejo: kerrigan 2017-07-17T18:38:10Z jojeojoejo: or sth 2017-07-17T18:38:26Z jojeojoejo: well he said it was pretty OK! 2017-07-17T18:38:31Z jojeojoejo: maybe that will help 2017-07-17T18:38:50Z jojeojoejo: ok print and stare 2017-07-17T18:38:54Z jojeojoejo: ;_; 2017-07-17T18:39:09Z jojeojoejo: how much of sicp have u done? 2017-07-17T18:39:21Z turbofail: kernighan 2017-07-17T18:39:32Z jojeojoejo: w/e 2017-07-17T18:39:35Z jojeojoejo: :3 2017-07-17T18:40:18Z wasamasa: C isn't the language of "w/e" 2017-07-17T18:41:15Z jojeojoejo: hmm what do you do with clojure at work some network thing? 2017-07-17T18:41:40Z wasamasa: web applications 2017-07-17T18:41:58Z turbofail: hey me too o/ 2017-07-17T18:42:58Z teurastaja joined #scheme 2017-07-17T18:43:20Z qu1j0t3: wasamasa: indeed! it's the language of wtf! 2017-07-17T18:43:39Z jojeojoejo: hmm what about kernel or low level stuff, 2017-07-17T18:43:55Z jojeojoejo: ok what about AI!!!!!!!!! 2017-07-17T18:44:02Z jojeojoejo: been meaning to look up that stuff 2017-07-17T18:44:06Z jojeojoejo: is lisp used there? 2017-07-17T18:44:31Z wasamasa: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AI_winter 2017-07-17T18:44:50Z wasamasa: your information is out of date by at least four decades 2017-07-17T18:45:00Z wasamasa: today people do AI stuff in java, C++, python, ... 2017-07-17T18:45:46Z jojeojoejo: :< 2017-07-17T18:46:19Z jojeojoejo: java srsly i heard thats a terrible language 2017-07-17T18:46:35Z jojeojoejo: and anyone using it are horrible or worse indians 2017-07-17T18:47:26Z lritter quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-17T18:50:39Z aeth joined #scheme 2017-07-17T18:57:44Z jojeojoejo: ok im going gn! 2017-07-17T18:58:08Z alezost joined #scheme 2017-07-17T18:59:13Z jojeojoejo quit (Quit: http://www.kiwiirc.com/ - A hand crafted IRC client) 2017-07-17T19:02:19Z jmd quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-17T19:02:41Z jonaslund quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-17T19:06:16Z kammd quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2017-07-17T19:19:25Z jcowan: wasamasa: Nah, Java and JS are *much* more different than Scheme and Lisp 2017-07-17T19:32:23Z jmd joined #scheme 2017-07-17T19:39:14Z lolcow joined #scheme 2017-07-17T19:40:17Z leppie quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-07-17T19:43:01Z ertes joined #scheme 2017-07-17T19:43:14Z qu1j0t3: https://twitter.com/dreid/status/887034723989569538 2017-07-17T19:43:16Z qu1j0t3: considering giving literate programming in lisp a go, but 2017-07-17T19:43:18Z qu1j0t3: unsure if the prose would outweigh the cons 2017-07-17T19:43:49Z qu1j0t3: jcowan: 100% 2017-07-17T19:44:00Z wasamasa: I like that one of the replies is a picture of a beardy guy laughing 2017-07-17T19:44:05Z daviid quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-17T19:46:01Z qu1j0t3: this beard? http://imgur.com/U7HAkO6 2017-07-17T19:48:01Z wasamasa: too serious 2017-07-17T19:50:43Z jcowan: Is that Dijkstra? 2017-07-17T19:50:50Z jcowan is face blind 2017-07-17T19:52:16Z pjb: jcowan: nope, it's John McCarthy, inventor of LISP. 2017-07-17T19:52:30Z pjb: (and time sharing, and garbage collector, and AI, etc). 2017-07-17T19:53:27Z qu1j0t3: jcowan: This is Dijkstra. http://imgur.com/bIkhmpP 2017-07-17T19:53:57Z jcowan: Yeah, when I achieve world domination, everyone will wear their name tags AT ALL TIMES!!!! 2017-07-17T19:53:59Z jmd` joined #scheme 2017-07-17T19:54:40Z pjb: jcowan: already done, thru facial recognition, fitted to cop's body cameras. 2017-07-17T19:54:45Z pjb: (or google glasses). 2017-07-17T19:56:24Z jcowan: Can GG identify people it sees on a screen as opposed to in RL? 2017-07-17T19:56:44Z jcowan: I can usually figure out who people are in RL (voice, clothes, location, topics of conversation, etc.) 2017-07-17T19:57:00Z jcowan: Though not instantly like neurotypicals can 2017-07-17T19:59:08Z gf3 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-17T19:59:26Z alexshendi joined #scheme 2017-07-17T20:01:05Z teurastaja quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-07-17T20:01:31Z gf3 joined #scheme 2017-07-17T20:06:27Z amz3`: what kind of apps do you program in clojure 2017-07-17T20:06:32Z amz3`: also which stack? 2017-07-17T20:07:29Z amz3`: wasamasa: ? 2017-07-17T20:07:54Z wasamasa: still web applications 2017-07-17T20:08:03Z amz3`: om? 2017-07-17T20:08:07Z wasamasa: and the boring stack of course 2017-07-17T20:08:10Z amz3`: yes you which stack? 2017-07-17T20:08:13Z amz3`: what is the boring stack? 2017-07-17T20:08:20Z wasamasa: not using any framework 2017-07-17T20:08:59Z wasamasa: not like there are many to start with, but it's still important because scheme is in a similar position 2017-07-17T20:09:15Z wasamasa: you can write web applications just fine, given proper libraries 2017-07-17T20:11:02Z amz3`: I am the one that posted on comp.lang.scheme about forward.scm 2017-07-17T20:11:04Z amz3`: yes 2017-07-17T20:11:07Z amz3`: I know that story 2017-07-17T20:11:21Z amz3`: powerful abstractions et al. 2017-07-17T20:11:25Z wasamasa: I use om for frontend stuff, together with, wait for it, lots of libraries 2017-07-17T20:12:43Z amz3`: does om support rendering static html form the backend so called isomorphic thing 2017-07-17T20:12:47Z amz3`: or universal app 2017-07-17T20:12:58Z wasamasa: ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ 2017-07-17T20:13:07Z amz3`: are you kidding 2017-07-17T20:13:09Z amz3`: ? 2017-07-17T20:13:21Z wasamasa: I know just enough of it to not get bogged down in irrelevant crap other frontend devs care about 2017-07-17T20:17:53Z amz3`: so basically you tell me that I should learn clojure and read that stuff to be enlightened? 2017-07-17T20:18:13Z wasamasa: I'm not sure at which point i did such a thing 2017-07-17T20:18:34Z amz3`: you are kind of evasive... so I try to read you mind through IRC 2017-07-17T20:19:28Z amz3`: lot of libraries? 2017-07-17T20:19:35Z amz3`: what do you use for data validation for instance 2017-07-17T20:19:46Z wasamasa: spec 2017-07-17T20:20:08Z PinealGlandOptic 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bringing it to life! 2017-07-19T21:19:59Z Riastradh bows 2017-07-19T21:20:14Z Riastradh: Not sure on exactly what day it was born, some time around July or August 2007. 2017-07-19T21:23:58Z pilne joined #scheme 2017-07-19T21:51:18Z daviid quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-19T21:54:46Z akkad: paredit is nice 2017-07-19T21:54:49Z akkad: taking donations? 2017-07-19T22:03:32Z yurb joined #scheme 2017-07-19T22:04:05Z nisstyre joined #scheme 2017-07-19T22:06:54Z yurb: how to test if a function return value is equal to one of several values most compactly without reevaluating it each time or storing its return value? 2017-07-19T22:07:27Z yurb: e.g. if (weather) is either 'rain or 'snow? 2017-07-19T22:10:23Z Kooda: yurb: the `member` procedure? `case`? 2017-07-19T22:15:38Z mmc quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2017-07-19T22:18:29Z yurb: Kooda: thank you:) case is a new one for me :) 2017-07-19T22:23:27Z Vloniax joined #scheme 2017-07-19T22:28:57Z Riastradh: akkad: I don't have a system 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a streaming mode of the parser. 2017-07-21T01:43:04Z pjb joined #scheme 2017-07-21T01:45:06Z shdeng quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-07-21T01:45:34Z jcowan: Or if it is enough, given that 100 MB is a very large XML file, to provide only an XML->SXML batch parser. 2017-07-21T01:48:12Z Menche_ joined #scheme 2017-07-21T01:49:19Z Menche quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-21T01:53:16Z nullx002 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-21T02:02:44Z nullx002 joined #scheme 2017-07-21T02:04:52Z Lowl3v3l quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-21T02:06:07Z Lowl3v3l joined #scheme 2017-07-21T02:08:58Z pjb quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-21T02:41:54Z ArneBab joined #scheme 2017-07-21T02:46:16Z ArneBab_ quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-21T03:01:05Z fadein quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-21T03:12:22Z daviid quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-21T03:12:36Z sleffy quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-21T03:30:13Z pilne quit (Quit: Quitting!) 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of RAM, it shouldn't be a problem to load even larger files 2017-07-21T06:03:30Z ecraven: jcowan: can you summarize in a sentence what microXML leaves out of "full" XML? 2017-07-21T06:29:10Z amz3` quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-07-21T06:38:28Z cemerick quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-21T06:59:28Z ertes quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-21T07:08:19Z sondr3 joined #scheme 2017-07-21T07:10:00Z pjb joined #scheme 2017-07-21T07:12:43Z sondr3 quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-21T07:13:41Z lambda-11235 quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.9) 2017-07-21T07:29:34Z beekill joined #scheme 2017-07-21T07:40:58Z amz3: jcowan: AFAIK if the XML is bigger than a few MB, people try to make it possible to parse chunk by chunk 2017-07-21T07:41:36Z amz3: jcowan: an example of that is https://archive.org/details/stackexchange 2017-07-21T07:41:54Z amz3: where each line of the file, is a single element 2017-07-21T07:42:59Z amz3: jcowan: here is how I parse it using guile's ssax parser https://framagit.org/a-guile-mind/sotogu/blob/master/sotogu.scm#L18 2017-07-21T07:43:24Z amz3: that is, I nonetheless stream the xml using a for-each procedure 2017-07-21T07:43:29Z amz3: kind of stream 2017-07-21T07:43:42Z amz3: using a ssax parser 2017-07-21T07:44:23Z amz3: I think wikipedia dump don't provide such property in their xml dumps, so you need a stream parser 2017-07-21T07:49:02Z foojin joined #scheme 2017-07-21T07:59:10Z wigust joined #scheme 2017-07-21T07:59:22Z grublet quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-21T08:01:36Z foojin quit (Quit: leaving) 2017-07-21T08:07:04Z Murii joined #scheme 2017-07-21T08:15:13Z civodul joined #scheme 2017-07-21T08:20:12Z greatscottttt joined #scheme 2017-07-21T08:22:13Z terpri quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-21T08:23:28Z eMBee joined #scheme 2017-07-21T08:51:17Z vicenteH joined #scheme 2017-07-21T09:10:53Z Labu joined #scheme 2017-07-21T09:11:07Z Labu: Hello 2017-07-21T09:11:50Z ecraven: hey 2017-07-21T09:13:40Z Labu: Hi ecraven 2017-07-21T09:15:34Z pjb quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-21T09:16:19Z PinealGlandOptic joined #scheme 2017-07-21T09:31:25Z ovenpasta joined #scheme 2017-07-21T09:35:50Z pjb joined #scheme 2017-07-21T09:46:26Z beekill quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-21T09:58:22Z marvin3 joined #scheme 2017-07-21T10:01:01Z marvin2 quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-21T10:09:22Z mmc joined #scheme 2017-07-21T10:10:54Z sondr3 joined #scheme 2017-07-21T10:16:43Z sondr3 quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-21T10:49:27Z Murii quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-21T11:09:41Z Murii joined #scheme 2017-07-21T11:13:17Z sondr3 joined #scheme 2017-07-21T11:17:28Z sondr3 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-21T11:19:39Z BitPuffin|osx joined #scheme 2017-07-21T11:40:56Z mejja joined #scheme 2017-07-21T12:01:45Z DGASAU is now known as ASau 2017-07-21T12:02:00Z ASau quit (Changing host) 2017-07-21T12:02:00Z ASau joined #scheme 2017-07-21T12:05:21Z akkad: never go 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I’m having some trouble with 8B. 2017-07-21T22:19:59Z alexshendi quit (Quit: Yaaic - Yet another Android IRC client - http://www.yaaic.org) 2017-07-21T22:24:54Z sondr3 joined #scheme 2017-07-21T22:30:14Z Labu quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2017-07-21T22:47:13Z cromachina joined #scheme 2017-07-21T22:49:05Z Riastradh quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-21T22:54:17Z brendos joined #scheme 2017-07-21T23:00:10Z daviid joined #scheme 2017-07-21T23:01:34Z pjb: marrenarre: what question? 2017-07-21T23:02:21Z mmc quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2017-07-21T23:13:25Z brendos quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-21T23:13:38Z lambda-11235 joined #scheme 2017-07-21T23:17:55Z sleffy joined #scheme 2017-07-21T23:22:08Z pjb: Well, I don't have any trouble with 8B, but since there's no question, good night. 2017-07-21T23:23:10Z marrenarre: pjb: Wait. :( 2017-07-21T23:25:19Z marrenarre: The problem is regarding how to implement ‘not’. It seems that it would simply output the dictionaries that did not allow any for matches, but then how would I make the program ouput every datum that does _not_ match? 2017-07-21T23:25:45Z marrenarre: Also, how can they filter data when they are only dealing with dictionaries at that level? 2017-07-21T23:26:28Z pjb quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-21T23:27:23Z pjb joined #scheme 2017-07-21T23:32:22Z pjb quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-22T00:04:05Z terpri quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-22T00:07:51Z marrenarre left #scheme 2017-07-22T00:17:06Z sethalves quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2017-07-22T00:22:46Z Lowl3v3l quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-22T00:23:51Z pierpa quit (Quit: Page closed) 2017-07-22T00:26:41Z sleffy quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-07-22T00:27:47Z jcowan: amz3: ping 2017-07-22T00:29:59Z jcowan: Would it be too limiting to assume than an XML start-tag (that is, the name, the attribute names, and the attribute values) should fit into memory? 2017-07-22T00:35:42Z Fare quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-22T00:50:14Z deep-book-gk_ joined #scheme 2017-07-22T00:50:32Z deep-book-gk_ left #scheme 2017-07-22T00:53:24Z terpri joined #scheme 2017-07-22T01:08:37Z daviid quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-22T01:22:44Z edgar-rft quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-22T01:31:18Z Fare joined #scheme 2017-07-22T01:37:25Z jao quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-22T01:39:17Z daviid joined #scheme 2017-07-22T01:39:17Z excelsior quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-22T01:39:26Z excelsior joined #scheme 2017-07-22T01:43:29Z terpri quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-07-22T01:51:17Z qu1j0t3: jcowan: assuming virtual memory? I don;t think so... 2017-07-22T01:51:38Z jao joined #scheme 2017-07-22T02:16:40Z lritter_ joined #scheme 2017-07-22T02:20:56Z lritter quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-22T02:23:13Z lritter_ quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-07-22T02:34:01Z Riastradh joined #scheme 2017-07-22T02:34:35Z dorei quit 2017-07-22T02:40:40Z ArneBab_ joined #scheme 2017-07-22T02:44:49Z ArneBab quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-07-22T02:47:40Z sondr3 quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-22T03:09:53Z daviid quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-07-22T03:36:01Z Menche quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-07-22T03:40:20Z terpri joined #scheme 2017-07-22T03:44:02Z badkins quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-22T03:45:36Z sondr3 joined #scheme 2017-07-22T03:50:40Z sondr3 quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-22T03:55:07Z Fare quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-22T03:59:53Z narendraj9 joined #scheme 2017-07-22T04:11:56Z jmd joined #scheme 2017-07-22T04:15:05Z jao quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-22T05:08:17Z narendraj9 quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-07-22T05:45:12Z jmd quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-22T05:51:07Z narendraj9 joined #scheme 2017-07-22T05:52:52Z lambda-11235 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-22T05:56:03Z Menche joined #scheme 2017-07-22T06:05:06Z Labu joined #scheme 2017-07-22T06:06:26Z Labu quit (Client Quit) 2017-07-22T06:07:02Z Labu joined #scheme 2017-07-22T06:11:49Z marvin3 quit 2017-07-22T06:17:05Z jonaslund quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-07-22T06:41:21Z wigust joined #scheme 2017-07-22T06:55:24Z wigust quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-22T07:07:13Z arbv quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-22T07:07:25Z arbv_ joined #scheme 2017-07-22T07:07:43Z arbv_ is now known as arbv 2017-07-22T07:08:52Z narendraj9 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-22T07:18:01Z jmd joined #scheme 2017-07-22T07:36:57Z jmd` joined #scheme 2017-07-22T07:42:58Z pjb joined #scheme 2017-07-22T07:43:54Z brendos joined #scheme 2017-07-22T08:08:09Z mmc joined #scheme 2017-07-22T08:30:10Z jonaslund joined #scheme 2017-07-22T08:57:05Z brendos quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-22T09:21:23Z qu1j0t3 quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-22T09:53:19Z pjb quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-22T10:04:39Z excelsior quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-22T10:04:47Z excelsior joined #scheme 2017-07-22T10:08:55Z gravicappa joined #scheme 2017-07-22T10:14:51Z Lowl3v3l joined #scheme 2017-07-22T10:19:13Z jonaslund quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-07-22T10:19:35Z qu1j0t3 joined #scheme 2017-07-22T10:22:14Z mejja joined #scheme 2017-07-22T10:23:40Z jmd quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-22T10:49:48Z pjb joined #scheme 2017-07-22T11:23:19Z amz3` quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-22T11:26:56Z jonaslund joined #scheme 2017-07-22T11:34:43Z mejja quit (Quit: \ No newline at end of file) 2017-07-22T11:41:44Z amz3` joined #scheme 2017-07-22T12:06:04Z jonaslund quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-22T12:18:40Z jinhooo joined #scheme 2017-07-22T12:23:05Z jinhooo: https://paste.ofcode.org/5JENwhBxzVdAvdgj7z7gv i get a bad syntax error in the second cond, whats wrong with it? 2017-07-22T12:27:22Z fizzie: The syntax is (cond (test exp ...) (test exp ...) ...), so your *first* cond has as a first clause (null? lat #f), meaning "if the expression 'null?' itself is true, evaluate (begin lat #f), followed by another clause (cond ...), with a 'cond' where the test should be. 2017-07-22T12:28:12Z fizzie: You probably want either (cond ((null? lat #f) (cond ...))) or (if (null? lat #f) (cond ...)), *not* (cond (null? lat #f) (cond ...)). 2017-07-22T12:29:56Z fizzie: Or actually I guess (null? lat #f) doesn't make sense, so maybe you wanted (if (null? lat) #f (cond ...)) or just a single (cond ((null? lat) #f) ) without a nested cond at all. 2017-07-22T12:30:35Z fizzie: Anyway, the syntax error for the second cond is that it's in a place where there should be a test expression for the first cond. 2017-07-22T12:35:25Z jinhooo: rightD: 2017-07-22T12:36:14Z jinhooo: ty:D 2017-07-22T12:40:31Z Fare joined #scheme 2017-07-22T12:47:25Z jinhooo quit (Quit: http://www.kiwiirc.com/ - A hand crafted IRC client) 2017-07-22T12:48:50Z excelsior quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-22T12:49:45Z jmd` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-22T13:06:56Z cemerick joined #scheme 2017-07-22T13:12:35Z mmc left #scheme 2017-07-22T13:23:07Z amz3`` joined #scheme 2017-07-22T13:26:31Z amz3` quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2017-07-22T13:28:25Z Labu quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-22T13:39:40Z cemerick quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-22T14:11:31Z jmd joined #scheme 2017-07-22T14:41:59Z daviid joined #scheme 2017-07-22T14:44:37Z jmd` joined #scheme 2017-07-22T14:54:35Z sondr3 joined #scheme 2017-07-22T14:58:55Z sondr3 quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-22T15:38:26Z Labu joined #scheme 2017-07-22T15:38:48Z Labu: Hello 2017-07-22T15:39:42Z CORDIC: Labu: Hi. 2017-07-22T15:45:23Z Labu: exercise 2.92 from SICP is very hard. I don't understand how I can convert a polynomial in some variable to a cannonical form in another variable. 2017-07-22T15:48:59Z qu1j0t3: Labu: I think the hint is in the 2nd paragraph before the exercise, "On the other hand, polynomial algebra is a system for which the data types cannot be naturally arranged in a tower ..." 2017-07-22T15:49:22Z qu1j0t3: "One can impose a towerlike structure on this by ordering the variables and thus always converting any polynomial to a ``canonical form'' with the highest-priority variable dominant and the lower-priority variables buried in the coefficients" 2017-07-22T15:49:30Z PinealGlandOptic quit (Quit: leaving) 2017-07-22T15:50:01Z jmd left #scheme 2017-07-22T15:51:23Z Labu: I try to add a complex number or a number from a lower type to a polynomial but I can't use a raise function like for another type because I don't know the polynomial variable I must create the new polynomial. 2017-07-22T15:53:03Z Labu: Yes qu1j0t3 but I don't see how I can do that. Perhaps I need an example. 2017-07-22T15:54:15Z qu1j0t3: it is a bit tricky. an example would definitely help. 2017-07-22T15:54:39Z qu1j0t3: I guess we could make up one of these: 'it is possible to have polynomials in x whose coefficients are polynomials in y' 2017-07-22T15:55:46Z qu1j0t3: hm, maybe something like y^2 x^2 - y x sort of thing. if we take x as the principle variable the coefficients are y^2 and -y ... if we take y as the principal variable they're x^2 and -x 2017-07-22T15:55:53Z qu1j0t3: principal* 2017-07-22T15:56:43Z qu1j0t3: so the idea is if you have say y^2 x^2 - y x add it to (3y^2 - 4y + 7) x^2 (expand first, e.g.) 2017-07-22T15:57:11Z qu1j0t3: so i think the ex. is all about producing a canonical form 2017-07-22T15:57:17Z Labu: ok 2017-07-22T15:57:39Z qu1j0t3: then you can manipulate them without assumign any principal variable (i think?) 2017-07-22T15:58:02Z Labu: it's very tricky 2017-07-22T15:58:10Z qu1j0t3: yeah, but you got this far! :D 2017-07-22T16:00:30Z jao joined #scheme 2017-07-22T16:01:37Z Labu: Thx for the example qu1j0t3 I'll try it 2017-07-22T16:15:40Z BW^- joined #scheme 2017-07-22T16:15:47Z BW^-: how do you relate to Clojure? 2017-07-22T16:15:57Z BW^-: i guess it's only stupid buzz. but why does it get air time. 2017-07-22T16:29:25Z CORDIC: msg amz3 ping 2017-07-22T16:34:54Z pjb: You can represent such polynomial with an extension of multisets, ie. sets where you can have multiple occurences of a single element. 2017-07-22T16:35:07Z pjb: {a, a} = {a} in usual sets. But {a, a} 2017-07-22T16:35:30Z pjb: {a, a} = {a} in usual sets. But {a, a} ≠ {a} in multisets. 2017-07-22T16:35:55Z pjb: {a, a} = {2×a}. 2017-07-22T16:36:18Z pjb: You can extend it to more complex factor numbers than just natural integers. 2017-07-22T16:37:04Z pjb: So y^2 x^2 - y x = {1×{y,y},1×{x,x},-1×{x,y}}. 2017-07-22T16:37:44Z BW^-: pjb: ? 2017-07-22T16:38:19Z pjb: x^2 = {x,x} = {2×x} so you can use the same extension for x^p: {p×x} 2017-07-22T16:38:47Z pjb: Well, then polynomial operations are simple multiset operations (union, cartesian product, etc). 2017-07-22T16:43:31Z Labu: pjb multiset is a part of scheme implementation or an extension ? 2017-07-22T16:43:41Z pjb: An extension you will write yourself. 2017-07-22T16:44:23Z Labu: ok pjb it's interesting 2017-07-22T16:44:53Z Lowl3v3l quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2017-07-22T16:45:09Z Lowl3v3l joined #scheme 2017-07-22T16:45:20Z Labu: I see how I can do that with the qu1j0t3's method but this way is interesting 2017-07-22T16:45:50Z amz3``: jcowan: it's ok to assume that an XML start-tag fit into memory IMO 2017-07-22T16:46:24Z cmaloney joined #scheme 2017-07-22T16:47:21Z qu1j0t3: pjb: interesting 2017-07-22T16:48:01Z amz3``: BW^-: at last you are here 2017-07-22T16:48:31Z amz3``: BW^-: I was told you work on GC for an immutable database or something like that, is that correct? 2017-07-22T16:49:19Z amz3``: BW^-: that's what I understood basically 2017-07-22T16:51:39Z amz3``: BW^-: what is your project? 2017-07-22T16:52:22Z BW^- quit (Quit: BW^-) 2017-07-22T16:52:25Z amz3``: oops 2017-07-22T16:56:57Z amz3``: maybe it's just a troll like polymorph self 2017-07-22T17:55:44Z cemerick joined #scheme 2017-07-22T18:16:50Z jmd joined #scheme 2017-07-22T18:21:56Z badkins joined #scheme 2017-07-22T18:24:58Z gravicappa quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-22T18:36:16Z jao quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-22T18:58:58Z sethalves joined #scheme 2017-07-22T19:07:44Z amz3`` is now known as amz3` 2017-07-22T19:07:45Z alezost joined #scheme 2017-07-22T19:17:03Z jao joined #scheme 2017-07-22T19:38:56Z lritter joined #scheme 2017-07-22T19:48:27Z jmd quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-22T19:48:27Z jmd` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-22T19:50:25Z xaotuk joined #scheme 2017-07-22T20:00:02Z Kkiro quit (Quit: ZNC 1.6.1 - 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Since the car of (1 2) is a literal, wouldn't this make a list automatically? 2017-07-23T09:44:32Z wasamasa: no, this would yield an error as you cannot apply a number 2017-07-23T09:45:57Z halidyne: wasamasa: what I meant was, what would it conflict with in the Scheme grammar? 2017-07-23T09:46:14Z wasamasa: it doesn't 2017-07-23T09:46:38Z wasamasa: the error happens during evaluation, not parsing 2017-07-23T09:47:14Z halidyne: wasamasa: so the error arises because of the semantics of Scheme 2017-07-23T09:47:35Z wasamasa: right 2017-07-23T09:48:26Z madmuppet006 joined #scheme 2017-07-23T09:49:00Z halidyne: wasamasa: got it, thanks 2017-07-23T09:50:07Z halidyne left #scheme 2017-07-23T09:52:28Z brendos joined #scheme 2017-07-23T09:52:37Z jmd` joined #scheme 2017-07-23T10:26:17Z sondr3 joined #scheme 2017-07-23T10:30:41Z sondr3 quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-23T10:51:05Z madmuppet006 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-23T10:54:15Z bgardner joined #scheme 2017-07-23T10:59:25Z madmuppet006 joined #scheme 2017-07-23T11:13:22Z CORDIC: amz3: Have You looked into [[http://www.rscheme.org/][RScheme]]? 2017-07-23T11:22:23Z madmuppet006 left #scheme 2017-07-23T11:26:42Z sondr3 joined #scheme 2017-07-23T11:30:58Z sondr3 quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-23T12:04:57Z amz3`: CORDIC: no, why? 2017-07-23T12:11:35Z xaotuk quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-23T12:11:36Z CORDIC: amz3`: IIRC they have some ideas about... Persistent Varibles. 2017-07-23T12:12:32Z amz3`: I see 2017-07-23T12:14:24Z jmd quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-23T12:15:37Z amz3`: intersting stuff 2017-07-23T12:15:39Z amz3`: tx! 2017-07-23T12:18:00Z CORDIC: :) 2017-07-23T12:18:03Z amz3`: “Transparency: A program accesses transient and persistent objects in the same way, because all objects "seem" to reside in virtual memory. If client code doesn't need to distinguish between transient and persistent objects, it is not forced to.” 2017-07-23T12:18:15Z amz3`: that's exactly what I was under the impression it was impossible to do 2017-07-23T12:18:25Z amz3`: https://link.springer.com/chapter/10.1007/978-1-4471-3209-7_2 2017-07-23T12:22:25Z amz3`: http://www.rscheme.org/rs/a/2005/persistence/ 2017-07-23T12:22:31Z amz3`: ^ this is it! 2017-07-23T12:24:09Z bjz joined #scheme 2017-07-23T12:42:10Z bjz quit (Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com) 2017-07-23T12:54:37Z jonaslund quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-23T12:57:52Z jonaslund joined #scheme 2017-07-23T13:00:15Z qu1j0t3: amz3`: yeah, it's a big red flag... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fallacies_of_distributed_computing 2017-07-23T13:00:45Z qu1j0t3: although that's about distributed not persistence, but some of the same issues would apply 2017-07-23T13:28:28Z sondr3 joined #scheme 2017-07-23T13:32:55Z sondr3 quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 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2017-07-23T19:29:05Z guanche: well, that's for mcu's it doesn't write and x86 elf in a crude way as this guy did 2017-07-23T19:29:11Z yegortimoshenko: does anyone use scheme as a scripting language (i.e. instead of bash, perl)? 2017-07-23T19:30:21Z guanche: It's a real shame I lost that, I had both the source code and the website bookmarked on my laptop, but it's hdd died and I didn't have any backups of that 2017-07-23T19:30:38Z sleffy joined #scheme 2017-07-23T19:31:14Z guanche: there's the scheme shell that I nko yegortimoshenko, which is for scheme48 2017-07-23T19:31:22Z guanche: *I know 2017-07-23T19:33:41Z yegortimoshenko: gunache: it looks rather abandoned 2017-07-23T19:34:19Z yegortimoshenko: what about guile scheme, can it be used for that purpose? i saw guix guys use it, so i thought it might be suitable for general scripting as well 2017-07-23T19:34:21Z daviid: yegortimoshenko: yes, quite a lot of guilers use guile as a scripting lang, myself included 2017-07-23T19:34:33Z jackdaniel: guanche: https://www.progville.com/c/tiny-scheme-interpreters/ 2017-07-23T19:34:37Z guanche: I know of it since years ago, even got to use it a bit, don't know it's actual state or anyother shell 2017-07-23T19:34:38Z jackdaniel: this has some references 2017-07-23T19:34:54Z guanche: thanks, let me see, I think I visited that page before entering here 2017-07-23T19:35:02Z jackdaniel: and http://canonical.org/~kragen/sw/urscheme/ 2017-07-23T19:35:28Z daviid: yegortimoshenko: and guix is full of scripts, for info... 2017-07-23T19:36:00Z yegortimoshenko: daviid: thanks! :-) i use NixOS, btw 2017-07-23T19:36:12Z guanche: yes, I saw those two thanks a lot, and also the indiana scheme repository, have downloaded a lot of the oldies and looked at them, but don't seem to find it 2017-07-23T19:36:17Z jackdaniel: guix uses guile and indeed has some shell wrapper (looked nice fwiw) 2017-07-23T19:37:48Z daviid: yegortimoshenko: wc! 2017-07-23T19:44:30Z amz3` joined #scheme 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2017-07-24T20:32:23Z yegortimoshenko joined #scheme 2017-07-24T20:35:06Z Labu quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2017-07-24T20:35:17Z yegortimoshenko: is there any resource where i can compare chez and luajit performance? 2017-07-24T20:35:55Z qu1j0t3: best make your own benchmarks 2017-07-24T20:37:45Z ecraven: yegortimoshenko: there are some chez benchmarks on https://ecraven.github.io/r7rs-benchmarks/benchmark.html, maybe you can implement one of them for luajit 2017-07-24T20:38:08Z yegortimoshenko: thanks! 2017-07-24T20:39:30Z ecraven: I've compared lua (no jit) to chibi scheme before, chibi was about 100% slower (twice the runtime) for my example (heavy on C FFI) 2017-07-24T20:39:49Z ecraven: given that chez is much faster than chibi, it should be much faster than lua (no jit). not sure how fast luajit actually is 2017-07-24T20:40:48Z yegortimoshenko: luajit is ~20x faster than lua on amd64 on average 2017-07-24T20:41:14Z yegortimoshenko: http://luajit.org/performance_x86.html 2017-07-24T20:42:32Z ecraven: interesting 2017-07-24T20:42:42Z ecraven: a pure guess, not based on anything much, is that chez is still faster 2017-07-24T20:42:59Z ecraven: but to really compare them, you would need extensive benchmarks 2017-07-24T20:43:03Z yegortimoshenko: i hope so 2017-07-24T20:43:25Z ecraven: not sure how easy chez would be to integrate into a program, like lua usually is integrated 2017-07-24T20:43:30Z yegortimoshenko: at least they seem to be in the same order of magnitude 2017-07-24T20:43:39Z ecraven: but there is a channel #chez ;) maybe people there know 2017-07-24T20:43:59Z yegortimoshenko: i'm not interested in ffi all that much, just pure scheme 2017-07-24T20:44:07Z ecraven: then you should be fine ;) 2017-07-24T20:44:17Z yegortimoshenko: thanks :-) 2017-07-24T20:44:30Z ecraven: I've been thinking about playing around with writing games in chez, but I'd love it to be r7rs for that :-/ 2017-07-24T20:44:40Z ecraven: afk now, good night ;) 2017-07-24T20:57:50Z yegortimoshenko: good night! 2017-07-24T21:02:18Z turbofail: luajit is pretty durn fast 2017-07-24T21:02:38Z turbofail: it's super impressive work 2017-07-24T21:03:35Z jonaslund quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-24T21:04:20Z jcowan: yegortimoshenko: You could front-end Chez with Rapid Scheme, which is an R7RS->vanilla translator 2017-07-24T21:08:00Z grublet joined #scheme 2017-07-24T21:15:58Z Riastradh quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2017-07-24T21:18:05Z Fare quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-24T21:29:10Z alezost quit (Quit: I live in GuixSD and Emacs ) 2017-07-24T21:32:33Z amz3` quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-24T21:32:57Z cemerick quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-24T21:42:29Z jonaslund joined #scheme 2017-07-24T21:44:49Z amz3` joined #scheme 2017-07-24T21:53:19Z amz3` quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-24T21:53:37Z grublet quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-07-24T21:59:19Z amz3` joined #scheme 2017-07-24T22:20:23Z wigust quit (Ping timeout: 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i see some literature and videos but what's the use case.. so .Find is supposed to tell you what. ranking at union time to decrease the search depth of the , works how?? 2017-07-26T11:09:48Z mejja joined #scheme 2017-07-26T11:11:33Z sz0 joined #scheme 2017-07-26T11:18:07Z Steverman quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2017-07-26T11:26:11Z adu joined #scheme 2017-07-26T11:26:34Z amz3: BW^-: what are you working on? 2017-07-26T11:35:22Z JohnTalent joined #scheme 2017-07-26T11:35:53Z adu quit (Quit: adu) 2017-07-26T11:39:58Z brendos quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-26T11:40:30Z brendos joined #scheme 2017-07-26T11:41:07Z Murii quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-26T11:42:23Z lritter quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-07-26T11:48:48Z dmiles quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-26T11:50:31Z mejja quit (Quit: \ No newline at end of file) 2017-07-26T11:52:48Z pjb quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-26T11:53:38Z sondr3 joined #scheme 2017-07-26T11:54:18Z pjb joined #scheme 2017-07-26T11:55:34Z dmiles joined #scheme 2017-07-26T12:09:17Z cemerick joined #scheme 2017-07-26T12:16:26Z Fare joined #scheme 2017-07-26T12:19:12Z exprosic joined #scheme 2017-07-26T12:21:23Z exprosic quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-07-26T13:14:38Z civodul quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 25.2.1)) 2017-07-26T13:18:54Z jao joined #scheme 2017-07-26T13:27:17Z jlongster joined #scheme 2017-07-26T13:28:55Z araujo joined #scheme 2017-07-26T13:28:55Z araujo quit (Changing host) 2017-07-26T13:28:55Z araujo joined #scheme 2017-07-26T13:46:24Z badkins joined #scheme 2017-07-26T13:53:13Z cromachina quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-26T13:56:50Z jowowow joined #scheme 2017-07-26T13:56:53Z jowowow: hi 2017-07-26T13:59:48Z jowowow: (cons 'hi 'there)=(hi . there) and (cons 'hi '(there))=(hi there) , how do i just get 'hi 'there? 2017-07-26T14:00:04Z wasamasa: what exactly do you mean? 2017-07-26T14:00:11Z ecraven: (list 'hi 'there)? (values 'hi 'there)? 2017-07-26T14:00:24Z wasamasa likes to pretend multiple values aren't a thing 2017-07-26T14:00:25Z C-Keen: (cons 'hi (cons 'there '())) 2017-07-26T14:00:28Z C-Keen: is a proper list 2017-07-26T14:01:14Z ecraven: wasamasa: hehe, sometimes they come in very handy! 2017-07-26T14:01:24Z ecraven: though I like RECEIVE much better than LET-VALUES and friends 2017-07-26T14:03:03Z gwatt: let-values can be more convenient since you can receive multiple sets of multiple values without needing to nest the forms 2017-07-26T14:03:29Z wasamasa: jowowow: what is your goal, printing something this way, constructing a particular data structure or something else? 2017-07-26T14:04:30Z jowowow: tried these, most of them print (hi there), you cant print them without the bracket? 2017-07-26T14:04:33Z jowowow: hmm 2017-07-26T14:04:46Z wasamasa: the point of the parentheses is showing you that what you're printing is a list 2017-07-26T14:06:53Z gwatt: jowowow: it seems like you want strings 2017-07-26T14:07:10Z gwatt: (display "hi there") 2017-07-26T14:07:56Z jowowow: was reading little schemer, a function was supposed to print '(ice cream with fudge topping for dessert) but it printed (ice cream with (fudge . topping) for dessert) instead 2017-07-26T14:08:12Z jowowow: and i cant even get it to work now grr 2017-07-26T14:08:27Z wasamasa: time for you to learn what quote is 2017-07-26T14:08:30Z gwatt: looks like there was an extra cons call in there 2017-07-26T14:11:03Z jowowow: https://paste.ofcode.org/S6DWZiqkTUuLQfud6QRhm9 insertR was the one, and also why isnt the addition thing working! 2017-07-26T14:11:49Z ecraven: hm.. it is really hard to write a proper memoize function when VALUES is as broken as it is on MIT/GNU Scheme :-/ 2017-07-26T14:15:23Z jowowow: bump for addition 2017-07-26T14:16:48Z gwatt: ecraven: will apply work? 2017-07-26T14:17:15Z ecraven: that is the problem, apply either returns a value (single value case) or a function (no or multiple values case) 2017-07-26T14:17:26Z ecraven: that "function" can be applied to `list', to get the actual values 2017-07-26T14:17:47Z ecraven: Riastradh: is there a way to discern between a function created by `values' and any other function? 2017-07-26T14:17:57Z Steverman joined #scheme 2017-07-26T14:18:07Z ecraven: so (values 1 2 3) is actually (lambda (f) (f 1 2 3)) in mit/gnu scheme :-/ 2017-07-26T14:18:19Z ecraven: so even (values 1) returns a function, not a value 2017-07-26T14:18:32Z gwatt: oh, hm 2017-07-26T14:24:01Z pjb quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2017-07-26T14:24:10Z jowowow: ok i gtg ill brb in abit! 2017-07-26T14:24:11Z jowowow quit (Quit: http://www.kiwiirc.com/ - A hand crafted IRC client) 2017-07-26T14:31:33Z Riastradh: ecraven: Sorry! It's a bug. 2017-07-26T14:38:05Z ecraven: Riastradh: now that I'm thinking about it more, this is a bug in rnrs, I believe 2017-07-26T14:38:33Z ecraven: as far as I understand it, this behaviour conforms to r5rs at least (not sure whether r7rs changed anything here) 2017-07-26T14:39:10Z ecraven: Riastradh: is VALUES treated specially when compiling? I can easily fix it for interpreted code by just redefining it 2017-07-26T14:43:41Z jcowan_: wasamasa: some Schemes print a ' in front of a result which is a list or an identifier in the REPL 2017-07-26T14:47:14Z jcowan_: ecraven: (values 1) does not have to return 1: see the sample implementation of `values` in R5RS or R7RS. 2017-07-26T14:47:36Z jcowan_: (define (values . things) 2017-07-26T14:47:36Z jcowan_: (call-with-current-continuation 2017-07-26T14:47:36Z jcowan_: (lambda (cont) (apply cont things)))) 2017-07-26T14:48:30Z wasamasa: seems wrong to me 2017-07-26T14:49:38Z jcowan_: All `values` has to do is to pass all its arguments to the current continuation, which is exactly what that code says to do 2017-07-26T14:49:57Z jcowan_: see http://trac.sacrideo.us/wg/wiki/MultipleValues for some of the ways that Schemes implement m.v.s 2017-07-26T14:50:26Z wasamasa: the quoted list thing I mean 2017-07-26T14:50:49Z jcowan_: Oh. I think it's to make copy and paste of results back into your code easy. 2017-07-26T14:51:47Z wasamasa: sure, still conceptually wrong :D 2017-07-26T14:52:14Z wasamasa: the result of evaluating '(1 2 3) isn't (quote (1 2 3)) 2017-07-26T14:55:41Z jcowan_: Well, it means redefining the P part of the REPL from "print the result" to "print a Scheme expression, if there is one, that evaluates to the result" 2017-07-26T14:55:57Z jcowan_: it means we are not so much evaluating as reducing and normalizing. 2017-07-26T14:56:30Z jcowan_: Brian Smith's 2-Lisp goes so far as to normalize 2 to 2 and '2 to '2. 2017-07-26T14:56:50Z jcowan_: 2 being the value 2, whereas '2 is the expression 2 2017-07-26T15:00:07Z pjb joined #scheme 2017-07-26T15:01:31Z wasamasa: the greatest trick clojure ever pulled was convincing the world that keywords are better than symbols 2017-07-26T15:01:53Z sethalves quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-07-26T15:03:13Z gwatt: Are clojure's keywords drasitcally different from other lisps' keywords? 2017-07-26T15:03:46Z wasamasa: no, it's just that you use symbols only when writing macros 2017-07-26T15:03:54Z wasamasa: otherwise they use symbols exclusively 2017-07-26T15:03:58Z wasamasa: *keywords 2017-07-26T15:07:13Z ejt quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-07-26T15:07:16Z wasamasa: one rarely if ever uses symbols in maps, as a function argument or result of a function 2017-07-26T15:07:58Z sz0 quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2017-07-26T15:13:55Z Riastradh: ecraven: It's a bug because you can't reliably do (call-with-values f (lambda x ...)) for all f. 2017-07-26T15:15:45Z sz0 joined #scheme 2017-07-26T15:16:55Z brendos quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-26T15:17:58Z Fare quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2017-07-26T15:18:22Z sethalves joined #scheme 2017-07-26T15:23:49Z zacts quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2017-07-26T15:31:28Z edgar-rft quit (Quit: edgar-rft) 2017-07-26T15:33:43Z jcowan_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-26T15:37:36Z tautologico joined #scheme 2017-07-26T15:48:16Z sethalves quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-26T15:49:29Z zacts joined #scheme 2017-07-26T15:53:29Z lritter joined #scheme 2017-07-26T15:55:27Z Riastradh quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-26T16:02:15Z boycottg00gle joined #scheme 2017-07-26T16:06:42Z amz3` joined #scheme 2017-07-26T16:06:50Z sethalves joined #scheme 2017-07-26T16:12:58Z greatscottttt quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.5) 2017-07-26T16:19:25Z jcowan joined #scheme 2017-07-26T16:22:14Z boycottg00gle quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-26T16:22:30Z lritter quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-07-26T16:22:31Z jonaslund joined #scheme 2017-07-26T16:26:26Z gravicappa joined #scheme 2017-07-26T16:29:14Z BW^- quit (Quit: BW^-) 2017-07-26T16:29:25Z sleffy joined #scheme 2017-07-26T16:38:41Z jmd joined #scheme 2017-07-26T16:43:17Z bsima_ is now known as bsima 2017-07-26T16:44:31Z Riastradh joined #scheme 2017-07-26T16:47:27Z whoman joined #scheme 2017-07-26T17:01:48Z Labu joined #scheme 2017-07-26T17:02:17Z Riastradh quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-07-26T17:17:58Z sz0 quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2017-07-26T17:20:02Z cemerick quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-26T17:28:24Z cemerick joined #scheme 2017-07-26T17:35:05Z vicenteH quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-26T17:35:55Z cemerick quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-26T17:36:43Z Riastradh joined #scheme 2017-07-26T17:45:07Z wigust quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-26T17:45:20Z jmd quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-07-26T17:46:58Z wigust joined #scheme 2017-07-26T18:06:54Z daviid joined #scheme 2017-07-26T18:07:33Z sz0 joined #scheme 2017-07-26T18:16:05Z Steverman quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-26T18:16:10Z jonaslund quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-26T18:18:37Z Steverman joined #scheme 2017-07-26T18:22:51Z Steverman quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-26T18:30:51Z jonaslund joined #scheme 2017-07-26T18:32:54Z alezost joined #scheme 2017-07-26T18:52:47Z gravicappa quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-26T18:55:35Z Lowl3v3l quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-26T19:01:31Z Lowl3v3l joined #scheme 2017-07-26T19:10:09Z ecraven: jcowan: but doesn't that mean there is no way to reliably intercept all values a procedure returns, do something with them and then pass them on? 2017-07-26T19:10:31Z ecraven: I can't see how to portably define `memoize' 2017-07-26T19:11:11Z jcowan: You can pass them using call-with-values to a procedure that accepts arbitrarily many arguments; or equivalently, use define-values with a lambda-identifier rather than a lambda-list. 2017-07-26T19:11:42Z ecraven: jcowan: that won't help, if I call (apply fun args), I cannot do anything with the result of that (as it might be the result of values, or not, and there's no way to differentiate) 2017-07-26T19:12:55Z jcowan: There is indeed no way to differentiate, but you don't have to: (call-with-values (apply fun args) list) => a list of the values returned. 2017-07-26T19:13:08Z ecraven: jcowan: not on mit scheme 2017-07-26T19:13:22Z ecraven: but then, that might be the bug ;) 2017-07-26T19:13:26Z jcowan: Indeed. 2017-07-26T19:13:46Z jcowan: In CL this is a standard macro named multiple-value-list 2017-07-26T19:14:39Z ecraven: this has been bugging me for a long time, I have to study mit-scheme internals a lot more, maybe I can provide a patch 2017-07-26T19:14:50Z ecraven: thanks for helping me see what the actual problem is 2017-07-26T19:17:05Z MrBusiness quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-26T19:18:17Z jcowan: ecraven: Oh, I forgot that the first argument to call-with-values is a thunk 2017-07-26T19:18:38Z jcowan: Try (call-with-values (lambda () (apply exact-integer-sqrt '(50))) list) 2017-07-26T19:18:38Z jcowan: ; or some other function that returns two values, if you don't have exact-integer-sqrt 2017-07-26T19:19:34Z jcowan: that returns (7 1) on both Chibi and Chicken-with-the-numbers-egg 2017-07-26T19:36:07Z ecraven: jcowan: yea, that works on mit-scheme too 2017-07-26T19:36:25Z jcowan: Okay, so no bug 2017-07-26T19:36:34Z jcowan: or at least, if there is a bug, we don't know what it is 2017-07-26T19:36:35Z ecraven: what doesn't work is (call-with-values (lambda () (anything-that-returns-something-not-constructed-with-VALUES)) list) 2017-07-26T19:36:45Z jcowan: ah 2017-07-26T19:36:51Z ecraven: no, the bug is that anything values returns is disjoint from any actual single value 2017-07-26T19:37:05Z ecraven: so *only* things returned by VALUES are "multiple values" that call-with-values can use 2017-07-26T19:37:21Z ecraven: (because internally VALUES is just (lambda args (lambda (f) (f args))) 2017-07-26T19:37:23Z ecraven: ) 2017-07-26T19:37:23Z Steverman joined #scheme 2017-07-26T19:37:50Z jcowan: So what does (call-with-values (lambda () (apply + '(3 4))) list) 2017-07-26T19:37:50Z jcowan: do? 2017-07-26T19:38:21Z jmd joined #scheme 2017-07-26T19:38:45Z ecraven: "The object 7 is not applicable." 2017-07-26T19:38:54Z ecraven: because (7 list) does not work ;) 2017-07-26T19:39:04Z wasamasa: I get (7) in csi 2017-07-26T19:39:13Z wasamasa: and (7) in guile 2017-07-26T19:39:22Z wasamasa: and '(7) in racket 2017-07-26T19:39:31Z ecraven: wasamasa: *every* other Scheme gets this correct, I think 2017-07-26T19:39:42Z wasamasa: no, '(7) is clearly incorrect :P 2017-07-26T19:39:42Z ecraven: it is really just a stupid bug, that no-one has cared enough about to fix 2017-07-26T19:40:36Z ecraven: it is simple to get a "working" version by just defining VALUES to return a single value if given only a single value, and some record otherwise (and adjusting call-with-values accordingly) 2017-07-26T19:40:50Z ecraven: but I think compiling handles multiple values directly, so that would need to be fixed too 2017-07-26T19:41:00Z ecraven: and the repl, to show multiple values, and bind them to successive #@... 2017-07-26T19:41:02Z mejja joined #scheme 2017-07-26T19:41:12Z ecraven: but that's all simple, compared to the compiler, I think 2017-07-26T19:47:08Z amz3` quit (Quit: Artufath) 2017-07-26T19:47:40Z jmd quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-26T19:51:13Z joast quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-07-26T19:51:38Z CORDIC: jcowan: So why isn't ``(/= '1 1)''? And in REPL ``: '1 -> '1'' which is essentialy ``(EVal ''1)''? 2017-07-26T19:52:59Z jcowan: CORDIC: Those things are true in 2-Lisp, but not in Scheme. Normalizing Scheme REPLs are still doing eval/apply, not normalize/reduce; they just massage the output to make it a normalization of the input 2017-07-26T19:54:09Z jcowan: (unless the output does not have a literal representation, in which case you get something not re-readable, and this is true of all Schemes 2017-07-26T19:57:31Z Riastradh quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-07-26T20:01:57Z Riastradh joined #scheme 2017-07-26T20:24:50Z civodul joined #scheme 2017-07-26T20:25:35Z joast joined #scheme 2017-07-26T20:27:44Z vicenteH joined #scheme 2017-07-26T20:45:56Z pierpa joined #scheme 2017-07-26T21:20:58Z Labu quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-26T21:23:06Z alphor quit (Quit: Bye!) 2017-07-26T21:23:27Z alphor joined #scheme 2017-07-26T21:23:48Z alphor quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-26T21:24:42Z alphor joined #scheme 2017-07-26T21:30:16Z jlongster quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. 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https://codepaste.net/8dq5ke 2017-07-27T07:15:59Z beekill joined #scheme 2017-07-27T07:16:59Z jeoaejoaoo: bump 2017-07-27T07:17:45Z ecraven: jeoaejoaoo: (define (x) (lambda (a b) ...)) makes x a function that returns a function 2017-07-27T07:17:54Z ecraven: you probably wanted (define x (lambda (a b) ...)) 2017-07-27T07:19:22Z jonaslund joined #scheme 2017-07-27T07:20:56Z jeoaejoaoo: ecraven: it works now,ty very much:D 2017-07-27T07:22:40Z jeoaejoaoo quit (Quit: ecravens cool) 2017-07-27T07:28:35Z cemerick quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-27T07:28:39Z lambda-11235 quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.9) 2017-07-27T07:42:36Z ejt joined #scheme 2017-07-27T07:44:21Z arbv quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-27T07:47:48Z arbv joined #scheme 2017-07-27T08:16:47Z gravicappa joined #scheme 2017-07-27T08:18:38Z civodul joined #scheme 2017-07-27T08:18:39Z araujo_ joined #scheme 2017-07-27T08:19:10Z araujo_ quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2017-07-27T08:20:09Z araujo_ joined #scheme 2017-07-27T08:21:51Z araujo quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-27T08:25:30Z ejt: is there a commonly used unit test framework in scheme? 2017-07-27T08:35:23Z civodul uses SRFI-64 2017-07-27T08:37:52Z ecraven: I wrote my own ;) 2017-07-27T08:38:01Z araujo_ quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-07-27T08:38:04Z ecraven: or rather just implemented some good ideas I found on the net 2017-07-27T08:39:13Z ejt: y, I was just about to roll my own, but thought I'd check first 2017-07-27T08:39:19Z ejt: looking at srfi 64 now thx 2017-07-27T08:40:50Z greatscottttt joined #scheme 2017-07-27T08:42:48Z shdeng quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-27T09:06:44Z araujo joined #scheme 2017-07-27T09:10:52Z qu1j0t3 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-27T09:26:04Z Murii quit (Quit: Going home) 2017-07-27T09:42:02Z beekill quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-27T09:43:52Z ejt quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-07-27T09:57:03Z arbv quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-27T09:57:03Z arbv_ joined #scheme 2017-07-27T09:57:21Z arbv_ is now known as arbv 2017-07-27T10:02:28Z whoman quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2017-07-27T10:11:30Z qu1j0t3 joined #scheme 2017-07-27T10:15:52Z shdeng joined #scheme 2017-07-27T10:50:34Z jonaslund quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2017-07-27T11:08:06Z mejja joined #scheme 2017-07-27T11:10:28Z arbv quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-27T11:15:50Z jonaslund joined #scheme 2017-07-27T11:16:23Z wigust joined #scheme 2017-07-27T11:17:14Z ejt joined #scheme 2017-07-27T11:17:25Z arbv joined #scheme 2017-07-27T11:17:38Z arbv quit (Client Quit) 2017-07-27T11:18:39Z arbv joined #scheme 2017-07-27T11:23:57Z JohnTalent quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-27T11:25:09Z arbv_ joined #scheme 2017-07-27T11:25:27Z arbv quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-27T11:25:28Z arbv_ is now known as arbv 2017-07-27T11:33:53Z arbv quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-07-27T11:34:15Z arbv joined #scheme 2017-07-27T11:42:39Z shdeng quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-07-27T11:52:33Z Steverman joined #scheme 2017-07-27T12:12:52Z sondr3 joined #scheme 2017-07-27T12:16:56Z JohnTalent joined #scheme 2017-07-27T12:17:22Z sondr3 quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-27T12:28:23Z gnomon quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-27T12:34:30Z gnomon joined #scheme 2017-07-27T13:03:32Z JohnTalent quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-27T13:06:35Z PinealGlandOptic quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-27T13:09:58Z jlongster joined #scheme 2017-07-27T13:12:28Z brendos quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-07-27T13:14:20Z lloda` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-27T13:19:15Z PinealGlandOptic joined #scheme 2017-07-27T13:24:41Z badkins joined #scheme 2017-07-27T13:26:46Z cemerick joined #scheme 2017-07-27T13:54:54Z lloda joined #scheme 2017-07-27T13:58:47Z cromachina quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-07-27T13:59:40Z lloda quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-27T14:02:05Z mejja quit (Quit: \ No newline at end of file) 2017-07-27T14:15:16Z ArneBab_ joined #scheme 2017-07-27T14:18:50Z ArneBab quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-27T14:23:50Z cemerick quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-27T14:24:15Z cemerick joined #scheme 2017-07-27T14:29:47Z jcowan joined #scheme 2017-07-27T14:39:28Z Steverman quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-27T14:40:35Z whoman joined #scheme 2017-07-27T14:54:00Z daviid joined #scheme 2017-07-27T14:54:23Z daviid is now known as Guest6541 2017-07-27T15:00:37Z lloda joined #scheme 2017-07-27T15:02:59Z X-Scale joined #scheme 2017-07-27T15:18:41Z whoman quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-07-27T15:20:28Z pjb quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-27T15:21:23Z civodul quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 25.2.1)) 2017-07-27T15:23:13Z Riastradh quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-07-27T15:28:56Z jonaslund quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-27T15:29:36Z greatscottttt quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.5) 2017-07-27T15:29:50Z cemerick quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-27T15:30:06Z cemerick joined #scheme 2017-07-27T15:44:20Z solene joined #scheme 2017-07-27T15:54:09Z Riastradh joined #scheme 2017-07-27T15:55:20Z cemerick quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-27T15:59:57Z badkins_ joined #scheme 2017-07-27T16:00:29Z solene: hello, I am new to scheme. Is it possible to pass plain code in a if condition ? I would like to create a list like (list data1 data2) and add data3 and data4 inside if a condition is true. I don't know if "something?" could be replaced to make it working in the following example (list data1 data2 (if cond (something? data3 data4))) 2017-07-27T16:00:48Z whoman joined #scheme 2017-07-27T16:01:05Z Riastradh quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-27T16:02:34Z badkins quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2017-07-27T16:03:51Z jcowan: solene: Nope 2017-07-27T16:04:26Z jcowan: That will try to see if 'cond' is true, and will most likely report that it is an undefined variable. 2017-07-27T16:06:18Z jcowan_ joined #scheme 2017-07-27T16:06:35Z solene: jcowan: maybe with a macro we could allow to pass both values to the list ? 2017-07-27T16:06:41Z whoman quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-27T16:07:32Z jcowan_: What you want is an expression that evaluates to the empty list if your condition is false or the list (data3 data4) if it is true. 2017-07-27T16:07:35Z jcowan_: What would that be? 2017-07-27T16:08:34Z solene: no, I would like to have (list data1 data2 data3 data4) if condition is true, and only (list data1 data2) if false. But I wonder if it's possible to use the (if) inside the list declaration 2017-07-27T16:09:10Z solene: otherwise I would do (let ((data (list data1 data2))) (if cond (append data (list data3 data4)) data)) 2017-07-27T16:09:33Z jcowan quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-27T16:09:39Z jcowan_: Append is not destructive, so that code will append and then throw away the result. 2017-07-27T16:10:01Z jcowan_: At least at the REPL; if you wrap them in a begin-block it will work. 2017-07-27T16:10:04Z jcowan_: But this is more Schemely: 2017-07-27T16:10:22Z solene: jcowan_: yes, in this example it will return the list with 2 or 4 elements. 2017-07-27T16:10:42Z jcowan_: (cons data1 (cons data2 (if condition (list data3 data4) '()))) 2017-07-27T16:11:13Z ejt quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-07-27T16:11:56Z solene: jcowan_: thx ! 2017-07-27T16:12:00Z jcowan_: Just doing (list data1 data2 (if condition (list data3 data4)) will always create a list with 3 elements 2017-07-27T16:12:32Z jcowan_: namely either (data1 data2 ) or (data1 data2 (data3 data4)) 2017-07-27T16:12:35Z jcowan_: neither of which is what you want 2017-07-27T16:14:56Z grublet joined #scheme 2017-07-27T16:16:31Z whoman joined #scheme 2017-07-27T16:17:12Z jao joined #scheme 2017-07-27T16:32:15Z whoman quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-07-27T16:37:21Z jcowan joined #scheme 2017-07-27T16:39:59Z jcowan_ quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-27T17:02:53Z pjb joined #scheme 2017-07-27T17:20:58Z whoman joined #scheme 2017-07-27T17:45:22Z Riastradh joined #scheme 2017-07-27T17:50:32Z sz0 joined #scheme 2017-07-27T17:58:02Z alphor quit (Quit: Bye!) 2017-07-27T17:58:58Z alphor joined #scheme 2017-07-27T18:19:07Z wigust quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-27T18:21:52Z wigust joined #scheme 2017-07-27T18:26:51Z JohnTalent joined #scheme 2017-07-27T18:32:36Z alezost joined #scheme 2017-07-27T18:46:01Z Labu joined #scheme 2017-07-27T18:49:12Z narendraj9 joined #scheme 2017-07-27T18:51:18Z cemerick joined #scheme 2017-07-27T19:02:49Z gravicappa quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-27T19:09:57Z sleffy joined #scheme 2017-07-27T19:10:58Z Labu: hello 2017-07-27T19:13:23Z wasamasa: hi 2017-07-27T19:18:47Z sondr3 joined #scheme 2017-07-27T19:23:04Z sondr3 quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-27T19:33:12Z MrBusiness joined #scheme 2017-07-27T19:36:08Z arbv quit (Quit: ZNC - 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I can't find the way to fetch the value of one attribute. Or is it better to have (list '(attr1 . "value") '(attr2 . "value")) and fetch it with (cdr (assoc 'attr1 mylist)) ? 2017-07-28T07:32:09Z greatscottttt joined #scheme 2017-07-28T07:42:22Z grublet quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-28T07:43:56Z civodul joined #scheme 2017-07-28T08:14:10Z araujo quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-28T08:31:31Z ejt joined #scheme 2017-07-28T08:31:41Z vicenteH joined #scheme 2017-07-28T08:55:52Z BW^- joined #scheme 2017-07-28T08:56:02Z BW^-: OT: What is a "spanning forest" (in graphs) really?? 2017-07-28T09:09:03Z Steverman joined #scheme 2017-07-28T09:11:01Z CORDIC: amz3: Persistent Objects (IDK the buzzword :) ) vere mentioned a few times in #ProgLangDesign. 2017-07-28T09:20:39Z BW^-: cordic: for what+ 2017-07-28T09:20:39Z BW^-: ? 2017-07-28T09:21:05Z leppie quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-28T09:24:00Z CORDIC: BW^-: I don't understand Your question :) . Could You be more specific? 2017-07-28T09:24:36Z BW^-: cordic: the buzzword, in what context was it suggested 2017-07-28T09:25:19Z CORDIC: Abstraction unifiying RAM and HDD. 2017-07-28T09:25:19Z leppie joined #scheme 2017-07-28T09:32:36Z BW^-: ok 2017-07-28T09:32:43Z BW^-: cordic: did it sound any fun? 2017-07-28T09:32:49Z pjb joined #scheme 2017-07-28T09:35:37Z CORDIC: I couldn't follow them :) . 2017-07-28T09:43:12Z beekill quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-28T09:47:58Z branstar1 quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-28T09:49:14Z branstark joined #scheme 2017-07-28T09:52:45Z branstark quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-07-28T09:57:46Z branstark joined #scheme 2017-07-28T10:04:17Z mejja joined #scheme 2017-07-28T10:29:59Z cai quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-28T10:32:41Z mejja quit (Quit: \ No newline at end of file) 2017-07-28T10:52:36Z eagleflo_ is now known as eagleflo 2017-07-28T11:04:27Z Steverman quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 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timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-28T23:37:08Z jcowan_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-28T23:37:19Z terpri quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-28T23:37:42Z lambda-11235 joined #scheme 2017-07-28T23:45:12Z Riastradh joined #scheme 2017-07-28T23:47:50Z madmuppet006 joined #scheme 2017-07-28T23:52:50Z madmuppet006: I have written a procedure to produce a mandelbrot set in a ppm image file format .. I can write the file ok and it opens in gimp no problem but the image itself is incorrect .. so Im wondering whether it has anything to do with the way scheme handles numbers? and if so how I can fix it? my code is at https://pastebin.com/xLUKBtxr .. thanks in advance 2017-07-28T23:56:17Z pierpa: without looking at the details of the program, I'd say it's more probable that the incorrect image is due to an incorrect algorithm rather than to the way scheme handles numbers. 2017-07-29T00:00:05Z pierpa: and you could test this hypotesis trying to draw an image simpler than the Mandelbrot set. 2017-07-29T00:01:19Z sondr3 joined #scheme 2017-07-29T00:06:07Z sondr3 quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-29T00:11:25Z daviid: madmuppet006: not because I'm the author, but you might be intereted to use guile-cv to write this, it will save in ppm and a buch of other format ... 2017-07-29T00:13:48Z daviid: madmuppet006: but it requires 2.0.13, availabe on debian stable, I wonder why you are stuck in 2..0.11 2017-07-29T00:14:14Z madmuppet006: pierpa:yeah I have drawn an image that is all one color .. pretty sure the algorithms ok 2017-07-29T00:15:01Z madmuppet006: daviid: bog standard debian :) on my raspberry pi its 2.2.2 2017-07-29T00:15:16Z daviid: madmuppet006: 2.2.2 is a ton better 2017-07-29T00:16:11Z daviid: madmuppet006: anyway, if you are interested to try guile-cv, join #guile and ping me 2017-07-29T00:16:22Z madmuppet006: daviid: thanks 2017-07-29T00:18:52Z daviid: madmuppet006: wc! 2017-07-29T00:19:49Z Labu quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-29T00:36:56Z dbmikus joined #scheme 2017-07-29T00:38:05Z fgudin quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-29T00:38:25Z mlaine quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-07-29T00:47:45Z xieyuheng joined #scheme 2017-07-29T00:49:30Z xieyuheng: is it possible to inline asm code in c to *explicitly* turn tail call to jmp ? 2017-07-29T00:51:07Z madmuppet006 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-29T00:52:09Z jcowan_ joined #scheme 2017-07-29T00:52:09Z jcowan joined #scheme 2017-07-29T00:54:46Z pierpa: yes 2017-07-29T00:56:24Z xieyuheng: how! 2017-07-29T00:57:49Z xieyuheng: store local variables to registers, clear c stack, and jump ? 2017-07-29T01:19:40Z cemerick joined #scheme 2017-07-29T01:20:44Z badkins quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-29T01:20:45Z deep-book-gk_ joined #scheme 2017-07-29T01:22:02Z qu1j0t3: you don't even need inline asm 2017-07-29T01:22:04Z qu1j0t3: just use goto 2017-07-29T01:22:19Z qu1j0t3: or while ... it doesn't matter 2017-07-29T01:22:25Z deep-book-gk_ quit (K-Lined) 2017-07-29T01:22:36Z qu1j0t3: C compilers do TCO anyhow 2017-07-29T01:27:48Z xieyuheng: qu1j0t3: they are mutually recursive functions 2017-07-29T01:29:12Z xieyuheng: I observed GCC does not do TCO 2017-07-29T01:35:13Z qu1j0t3: it does. 2017-07-29T01:35:20Z qu1j0t3: also for mutually recursive functions. 2017-07-29T01:35:27Z qu1j0t3: you have to enable optimisations, however. 2017-07-29T01:35:37Z qu1j0t3: it has done so for a decade or two 2017-07-29T01:49:39Z qu1j0t3: xieyuheng: Compare -O1, -O2, and -O3 here. https://godbolt.org/g/Z7mp1b 2017-07-29T01:55:34Z xieyuheng: qu1j0t3: it does not. I enabled -Ofast. 2017-07-29T01:55:39Z xieyuheng: exe(jo_t tag, cell data) { struct class* class = tag->data; class->executer(data); } 2017-07-29T01:55:40Z xieyuheng: compiled to asm code with a line : "call *32(%rax)" 2017-07-29T01:56:06Z qu1j0t3: xieyuheng: whatever you say, champ. 2017-07-29T01:59:50Z cemerick quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-29T02:00:01Z Lowl3v3l: xieyuheng: are you really sure your code is a proper tail call (thats the usual tripping point)? 2017-07-29T02:00:21Z Lowl3v3l: xieyuheng: and btw, gcc has been able to optimize tail recursion for ages 2017-07-29T02:01:20Z Lowl3v3l: at least since 2.95.3 ( thats the oldest statement i found) 2017-07-29T02:02:20Z xieyuheng: it was my fault, i omitted "void", the function is viewed by gcc as returning "int". I will add all "void" back and try again. 2017-07-29T02:02:25Z xieyuheng: sorry qu1j0t3 2017-07-29T02:03:16Z sondr3 joined #scheme 2017-07-29T02:07:02Z jim: void? int? gcc?? hmm, I must be in the wrong place... can I talk about python? 2017-07-29T02:08:03Z jim: are you writing a python module in C or something like that? 2017-07-29T02:08:04Z sondr3 quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-29T02:28:52Z jao quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-29T02:30:42Z pierpa quit (Quit: Page closed) 2017-07-29T02:31:14Z deep-book-gk_ joined #scheme 2017-07-29T02:31:40Z deep-book-gk_ left #scheme 2017-07-29T02:35:04Z xieyuheng: it is a question about proper tail call. I can think of no better place to ask it. 2017-07-29T02:35:13Z xieyuheng a little desperate .. 2017-07-29T02:35:39Z jim: tail recursion? 2017-07-29T02:36:42Z jim: there's a couple places that could have additional info, ##c and ##programming 2017-07-29T02:39:04Z jim: I have a question that I pastebinned (http://termbin.com/h7sy) about getting a particular style of list... 2017-07-29T02:41:07Z jim: background starts at line 1, my question (and some more bg) starts at line 13 2017-07-29T02:51:19Z ArneBab_ joined #scheme 2017-07-29T02:54:50Z ArneBab quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-29T02:59:30Z daviid quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-29T03:06:52Z Menche_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-29T03:07:04Z Menche_ joined #scheme 2017-07-29T03:11:58Z Menche_ is now known as Menche 2017-07-29T03:12:59Z Menche quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-07-29T03:13:10Z Menche joined #scheme 2017-07-29T03:40:25Z Menche quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-07-29T03:43:22Z deep-book-gk_ joined #scheme 2017-07-29T03:45:16Z deep-book-gk_ left #scheme 2017-07-29T03:52:52Z dbmikus quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-29T04:05:08Z dbmikus joined #scheme 2017-07-29T04:10:11Z jlongster quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. 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ZZZzzz…) 2017-07-29T14:04:03Z jlongster joined #scheme 2017-07-29T14:06:30Z jlongster quit (Client Quit) 2017-07-29T14:23:49Z Blukunfando joined #scheme 2017-07-29T14:41:05Z Khisanth quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-07-29T14:54:10Z Khisanth joined #scheme 2017-07-29T15:17:53Z g0d355__ quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-07-29T15:20:43Z BW^- joined #scheme 2017-07-29T15:20:53Z BW^-: i want a "Union Find Splice" data structure, any ideas?? 2017-07-29T15:21:05Z BW^-: ie what i want is: 2017-07-29T15:21:09Z BW^-: 1) (Union:) To join two trees fast. 2017-07-29T15:21:13Z BW^-: 2) (Find:) To check if two nodes belong to the same tree fast (e.g. by looking up the unique identifier/root of a tree fast) 2017-07-29T15:21:16Z BW^-: 3) (Split:) To split a tree into two trees fast. 2017-07-29T15:22:40Z qu1j0t3: BW^-: was just reading about RRB trees. Might help. 2017-07-29T15:23:11Z qu1j0t3: BW^-: designed for efficient join and split. https://infoscience.epfl.ch/record/169879/files/RMTrees.pdf 2017-07-29T15:31:54Z BW^-: qu1j0t3: what about Find operation (as in checking if two nodes belong to the same tree)? 2017-07-29T15:32:35Z BW^-: oo nice! 2017-07-29T15:33:33Z BW^-: qu1j0t3: do you know any implementation? 2017-07-29T15:34:09Z qu1j0t3: it looks like there are some on github. 2017-07-29T15:35:11Z qu1j0t3: here's a C library http://hypirion.com/thesis 2017-07-29T15:41:44Z brendos quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-07-29T15:46:21Z BW^-: yeah 2017-07-29T15:46:31Z BW^-: qu1j0t3: interesting stuff, thanks for mentioning. 2017-07-29T15:46:40Z BW^-: qu1j0t3: so.. this is the finest, best algorithm for the purpose i described, presently, right? 2017-07-29T15:48:22Z BW^- quit (Quit: BW^-) 2017-07-29T15:48:59Z BW^- joined #scheme 2017-07-29T15:49:11Z BW^-: qu1j0t3: ? 2017-07-29T15:56:11Z BW^- quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-07-29T16:39:32Z lritter quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-07-29T16:40:12Z BW^- joined #scheme 2017-07-29T16:40:13Z BW^-: qu1j0t3: ? 2017-07-29T16:40:21Z BW^-: qu1j0t3: (sorry for disconnects, lookng forward to learn what yout hink) 2017-07-29T17:01:21Z marvin2 joined #scheme 2017-07-29T17:04:46Z badkins joined #scheme 2017-07-29T17:08:37Z qu1j0t3: BW^-: 'finest, best' according to what criteria. It sounds like you need to do a literature search. 2017-07-29T17:10:15Z daviid joined #scheme 2017-07-29T17:25:16Z sleffy joined #scheme 2017-07-29T17:29:15Z BW^-: qu1j0t3: well what more interesting stuff is out there? 2017-07-29T17:32:49Z cemerick joined #scheme 2017-07-29T17:36:30Z Steverman joined #scheme 2017-07-29T18:03:57Z cemerick quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-29T18:07:35Z alezost joined #scheme 2017-07-29T18:13:18Z sleffy quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-29T18:17:21Z sleffy joined #scheme 2017-07-29T18:21:16Z jcowan quit (Disconnected by services) 2017-07-29T18:21:21Z jcowan_ is now known as jcowan 2017-07-29T18:21:39Z jcowan_ joined #scheme 2017-07-29T18:22:18Z sethalves quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-29T18:28:36Z sethalves joined #scheme 2017-07-29T18:43:57Z sethalves quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-29T18:46:31Z pjb quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-07-29T18:52:27Z Steverman quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-29T19:00:50Z sethalves joined #scheme 2017-07-29T19:01:58Z BW^- quit (Quit: BW^-) 2017-07-29T19:03:17Z sethalves quit (Client Quit) 2017-07-29T19:07:21Z jlongster joined #scheme 2017-07-29T19:08:10Z gravicappa quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-29T19:12:44Z pjb joined #scheme 2017-07-29T19:18:46Z wigust quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-07-29T19:27:36Z jlongster quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. 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I haven't looked deeply into union/find methods. Okasaki's book deals with it a bit 2017-07-30T13:55:58Z Riastradh: Whee, inverse Ackerman! 2017-07-30T13:56:10Z Riastradh: Or, maybe in the purely functional setting, it'll have to be inverse Ackerithmic. 2017-07-30T14:08:37Z BW^-: qu1j0t3: i need a Union Find Split! 2017-07-30T14:08:44Z BW^-: Riastradh: are you aware of any Union Find Split out there?? 2017-07-30T14:09:03Z Riastradh: Dunno, what's split, exactly? 2017-07-30T14:09:29Z BW^-: 1) (Union:) Merge two trees, and 2017-07-30T14:09:30Z BW^-: 2) (Find:) To check if two nodes belong to the same tree fast (e.g. by looking up the unique identifier/root of a tree fast). 2017-07-30T14:09:30Z BW^-: 3) (Split:) To split a tree into two trees fast. 2017-07-30T14:09:34Z BW^-: Riastradh: this. 2017-07-30T14:09:47Z Riastradh: Yes, but how do you specify what the subtrees after split are? 2017-07-30T14:10:09Z BW^-: Riastradh: what do you mean? just by some unique value generated by the algorithm. appointment of a "root" may be OK. 2017-07-30T14:10:17Z Riastradh: For union, you name two elements, and their entire equivalence classes merge. 2017-07-30T14:10:29Z BW^-: qu1j0t3: i suspect that Union Find Split *cannot* be implemented using Relaxed Radix Balanced trees! 2017-07-30T14:10:36Z Riastradh: For split, you name two elements(?), and...which distinct equivalence classes do their common equivalence class split into? 2017-07-30T14:10:40Z BW^-: Riastradh: exactly 2017-07-30T14:11:06Z BW^-: Riastradh: what do you mean? say I have the two trees A - B , C - D - E. then I union them, giving me A - B - C - D - E. 2017-07-30T14:11:18Z BW^-: Riastradh: then I split at the C - D edge, which gives me A - B - C and D - E. 2017-07-30T14:11:26Z qu1j0t3: BW^-: Why do you suspect that? 2017-07-30T14:11:30Z Riastradh: So you have a linear ordering relation on the elements too? 2017-07-30T14:12:03Z sondr3 joined #scheme 2017-07-30T14:12:03Z qu1j0t3: Riastradh: I don't think it's split on an equivalence class, but rather a partition by a value 2017-07-30T14:12:18Z BW^-: Riastradh: as for so the split function takes as argument, WHICH edge I would like to delete, in the tree. 2017-07-30T14:12:36Z X-Scale joined #scheme 2017-07-30T14:12:43Z BW^-: qu1jt3: it appears to me that the values within an RRB tree must be sorted somehow?? or?? 2017-07-30T14:12:59Z BW^-: Riastradh: i think what qu1j0t3 just said is what i want 2017-07-30T14:13:01Z BW^-: Riastradh: so no ordering 2017-07-30T14:13:08Z BW^-: Riastradh: there's no automatic sorting or anything here 2017-07-30T14:13:20Z BW^-: Riastradh: the only point is just to be able to track the trees in a forest 2017-07-30T14:13:33Z qu1j0t3: BW^-: actually they are indexed, not sorted 2017-07-30T14:13:40Z qu1j0t3: BW^-: (did you read the paper) 2017-07-30T14:13:58Z BW^-: Riastradh: like, "oh, now we have trees H, J and K in the forest. now we join H and J - so now we have trees L and K in the forest. now we split the tree K at some given edge, so now we have trees L M N in the forest". 2017-07-30T14:14:47Z BW^-: qu1j0t3: i read the paper yes, and skimmed a bit of the source code. i think i kinda understand how the data structure looks - actually to confirm - from just a normal radix tree, how does the RRB tree's data format differ? 2017-07-30T14:15:27Z BitPuffin|osx quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-30T14:16:29Z sondr3 quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-07-30T14:18:00Z bjz_ quit (Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2017-07-30T14:18:20Z BW^-: Riastradh: ? 2017-07-30T14:19:54Z BW^-: qu1j0t3: can you explain to me how the RRB tree can be used for the union find split example usage I described above? 2017-07-30T14:20:22Z qu1j0t3: BW^-: union and split are described in the paper. Not sure about find 2017-07-30T14:20:48Z BW^-: qu1j0t3: umm.. find is just "tell me what the root is" 2017-07-30T14:21:22Z BW^-: qu1j0t3: actually like, as long as there's some unique identity. i think as long as they are separate structures, i will be able to keep an identity - so find should be an easy one. 2017-07-30T14:21:27Z BW^-: qu1j0t3: how do you do "union" and "find"? 2017-07-30T14:21:36Z qu1j0t3: yeah i suspect find shouldn't be too difficult. 2017-07-30T14:21:52Z BW^-: mm 2017-07-30T14:22:12Z bjz joined #scheme 2017-07-30T14:22:14Z BW^-: qu1j0t3: so now, like, i am somehow clueless here - 2017-07-30T14:23:35Z qu1j0t3: BW^-: here's a video on the alg. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K2NYwP90bNs 2017-07-30T14:23:38Z BW^-: qu1j0t3: would you mind explaining to me, step by step, the process where we first build two trees: swe spawn nodes A and B and create a tree from that. then we spawn nodes C, D and E, make edges between C and D, and between D and E, respectively 2017-07-30T14:23:47Z qu1j0t3: BW^-: I can't do that for you on irc. 2017-07-30T14:23:58Z BW^-: aha 2017-07-30T14:24:17Z qu1j0t3: BW^-: usually sitting down to implement an algorithm is a good way of solidifying an understanding. but there's also that video 2017-07-30T14:24:22Z BW^-: yea sure 2017-07-30T14:24:24Z BW^-: mhm 2017-07-30T14:24:30Z BW^-: it's a very long video, an hour 2017-07-30T14:24:33Z qu1j0t3: yeah 2017-07-30T14:24:39Z qu1j0t3: thre's no shortcut to understanding 2017-07-30T14:24:51Z qu1j0t3: it will probably take you a few days to implement and test 2017-07-30T14:26:10Z qu1j0t3: you should probably give some context as to - why the rush; and why an inefficient prototype won't work WHILE you study an efficient alternative. 2017-07-30T14:26:20Z BW^-: oh 2017-07-30T14:26:25Z BW^-: an inefficient prototype would suffice 2017-07-30T14:26:37Z qu1j0t3: so maybe tht would take the pressure off while you study RRB trees 2017-07-30T14:26:47Z BW^-: hmm 2017-07-30T14:26:50Z BW^-: qu1j0t3: so like, hmm 2017-07-30T14:27:33Z qu1j0t3: BW^-: I watch videos on 1.25 or 1.5x :) 2017-07-30T14:28:19Z qu1j0t3: you can fast forward to 9:45 2017-07-30T14:28:31Z qu1j0t3: at least 2017-07-30T14:33:36Z qu1j0t3: BW^-: the meat starts at 18:53 2017-07-30T14:38:58Z qu1j0t3: and you can almost ff to 25:00 2017-07-30T14:41:09Z bjz quit (Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2017-07-30T14:41:29Z BW^-: oh! great 2017-07-30T14:41:35Z BW^-: qu1j0t3: ok, going to 25:00. 2017-07-30T14:41:55Z qu1j0t3: i wouldn't say it's a fast moving talk , so try 1.25x or more 2017-07-30T14:42:17Z branstark quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-30T14:44:28Z BW^-: qu1j0t3: if you see any slides that are particularly informative, feel free to let me know the mm:ss 2017-07-30T14:44:38Z branstark joined #scheme 2017-07-30T14:45:02Z qu1j0t3: RRB begins to be discussed around 32:)) 2017-07-30T14:45:04Z qu1j0t3: 00* 2017-07-30T14:46:15Z BW^-: :)) 2017-07-30T14:46:22Z BW^-: qu1j0t3: what about union find :)) 2017-07-30T14:46:52Z qu1j0t3: you'll need to refer to the paper for that. efficient union and split is one of the design properties 2017-07-30T14:49:32Z qu1j0t3: split @ 38:00 (union before that) 2017-07-30T14:51:02Z ejt joined #scheme 2017-07-30T14:53:00Z qu1j0t3: impl at 42:00+ 2017-07-30T14:55:51Z ejt quit (Client Quit) 2017-07-30T14:59:46Z dbmikus joined #scheme 2017-07-30T15:00:38Z lritter joined #scheme 2017-07-30T15:01:42Z BW^-: qu1j0t3: hm interesting 2017-07-30T15:01:43Z BW^-: oh aha 2017-07-30T15:01:44Z BW^-: hm 2017-07-30T15:02:01Z BW^-: qu1j0t3: i was thinking if the RRB is actually analogous to union find 2017-07-30T15:12:16Z BW^-: qu1j0t3: wait, mate, can i make those structures circular?? 2017-07-30T15:12:17Z BW^-: hmm! 2017-07-30T15:12:24Z sondr3 joined #scheme 2017-07-30T15:13:02Z BW^-: probably I can hmm 2017-07-30T15:15:40Z jao quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2017-07-30T15:17:09Z grublet joined #scheme 2017-07-30T15:24:17Z Riastradh quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-30T15:50:44Z terpri joined #scheme 2017-07-30T15:59:11Z marvin2 joined #scheme 2017-07-30T16:00:21Z jmd` joined #scheme 2017-07-30T16:03:21Z aeth quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-07-30T16:08:12Z BitPuffin|osx joined #scheme 2017-07-30T16:08:54Z noethics joined #scheme 2017-07-30T16:11:10Z aeth joined #scheme 2017-07-30T16:17:59Z mejja quit (Quit: \ No newline at end of file) 2017-07-30T16:28:22Z bjz joined #scheme 2017-07-30T16:38:17Z bjz quit (Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. 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Having the garbage collector visibly mutate an object is problematic for the same reason that concurrent mutation of shared state is undesirable, and this behavior also complicates or weakens sandboxing as a sandboxed program can determine information about the state of the sandbox host or other sandboxed programs by observing the collector's behavior, par 2017-07-31T02:13:13Z edgar-rft: rudybot: and when I'm dead, who will garbage-collect me? 2017-07-31T02:13:18Z rudybot: edgar-rft: not sure how helpful it really is .. the dead stuff it shows is mostly still lying around after M-x garbage-collect 2017-07-31T02:13:41Z edgar-rft: that's what I was afraid of... 2017-07-31T02:16:19Z badkins joined #scheme 2017-07-31T02:20:57Z badkins quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-07-31T02:21:05Z mejja: rudybot: The prevailing anthropomorphism erects another barrier to abstraction from program execution and computational histories. 2017-07-31T02:21:12Z rudybot: mejja: because the next option for a like lake skating is "skate up in the car, guards on and waddle out. but even in those cases someone usually erects a small enclosure. 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