2017-04-01T00:00:03Z pjb: So you want a structure?
2017-04-01T00:00:30Z dTal: sure
2017-04-01T00:00:57Z pjb: http://wiki.call-cc.org/eggref/4/defstruct
2017-04-01T00:03:22Z dTal: wrong scheme, but define-record seems to be what I want. Thanks!
2017-04-01T00:04:54Z dTal: see I *know* to start asking questions when the abstraction doesn't seem to be a beautiful and flawless fit :)
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2017-04-01T01:15:59Z theseb: Can macros be understood as just expressions with a "special" type of evaluation?...And the ONLY thing special is that you don't evaluate the function parameters before invoking the associated function?...one more thing...is there a SCOPE with macro expression evaluations like there is for "normal" expressions?
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2017-04-01T01:31:38Z noethics: theseb, do you mean just macros in scheme
2017-04-01T01:31:47Z noethics: yes, they do have scope
2017-04-01T01:32:07Z noethics: but what they are.. um i think that's a simplification
2017-04-01T01:33:45Z noethics: the interesting part about macros is the transformer
2017-04-01T01:33:55Z noethics: even, i'd say your definition is a conflation
2017-04-01T01:34:59Z noethics: they aren't late bound or anything like that. i don't know what you mean
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2017-04-01T01:41:51Z aeth: There is one problem with using a struct or a struct-like thing for constants. They're not constant.
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2017-04-01T11:37:59Z amz3`: wat! Javascript frontend frameworks super complicated to use, lotta of boilerplate
2017-04-01T11:38:29Z amz3`: I just ported my scheme frontend framework to javascript, and it looks very ugly
2017-04-01T11:38:38Z amz3`: I discovered that could simplify my scheme code tho
2017-04-01T11:39:05Z amz3`: here is an old version of it https://github.com/amirouche/scheme-todomvc
2017-04-01T11:45:18Z axion: Hello all. Pre-registration for the annual Lisp Game Jam is open: https://itch.io/jam/lisp-game-jam-2017-easy-mode
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2017-04-01T11:54:04Z amz3`: I am the only one to be excited to be able to do browser frontend stuff in scheme :(
2017-04-01T11:54:32Z amz3`: Okay, I recognize it can be slow! but I have performance hack in mind
2017-04-01T11:55:40Z amz3`: Here is another demo https://amirouche.github.io/ohmypalette/
2017-04-01T11:56:06Z amz3`: UX is painful tho, one must use scroll or arrows to change color components which is slow
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2017-04-02T01:54:30Z foof`: ecraven: awesome! post it on the list.
2017-04-02T01:57:58Z foof`: jcowan: you missed an important part of chibi's multiple values impl, which is that the single value case (values x) just returns x
2017-04-02T02:00:04Z foof`: ... plus you have to wrap call/cc to handle mvs
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2017-04-02T08:22:53Z jonaslund: amz3`: what translator are you using _
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2017-04-02T08:23:30Z jonaslund: or runtime
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2017-04-02T10:23:01Z amz3`: jonaslund: biwascheme
2017-04-02T10:23:31Z amz3`: some people reported that it was slow
2017-04-02T10:25:16Z jonaslund: amz3`: everything is relative but interpretation isn't JS strong side
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2017-04-02T10:32:19Z amz3`: I will improve the code and make a release california style
2017-04-02T10:32:48Z amz3`: with a nice website et al.
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2017-04-02T13:23:04Z BW^-: a question - what databases are there that use a self-allocated identifier as key only (so key is not choosable), and that has some journalling so it's somehow robust against crashes?
2017-04-02T13:24:02Z BW^-: there are some key-value databases out there such as LMDB and RocksDB, but they give the user a chooseable key, which is more complexity than I want.
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2017-04-02T19:37:01Z ecraven: foof`: will do, just need to clean it up a bit
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2017-04-03T12:53:17Z afidegnum: hello, anyone familiar with Lambdanative? i m finding hard to create a mobile app,
2017-04-03T12:53:27Z afidegnum: the documentation is not extended
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2017-04-03T20:02:18Z ecraven: somehow I missed APL for all those years... it is indeed a very interesting language, just like forth and smalltalk and prolog
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2017-04-03T20:47:43Z aeth: Languages based around one interesting concept are interesting.
2017-04-03T20:48:02Z aeth: Also take a look at Lua, almost everything is done via tables.
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2017-04-03T21:01:12Z edgar-rft: Languages around *one* interesting concept are for babies, Lisp is built on *many* interesting concepts.
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2017-04-03T21:15:57Z ecraven: aeth: I have, but I don't find it very interesting.. it is missing too many basic things, imho
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2017-04-03T23:10:17Z chatter29: hey guys
2017-04-03T23:10:35Z chatter29: allah is doing
2017-04-03T23:10:43Z chatter29: sun is not doing allah is doing
2017-04-03T23:10:44Z chatter29: to accept Islam say that i bear witness that there is no deity worthy of worship except Allah and Muhammad peace be upon him is his slave and messenger
2017-04-03T23:11:42Z Menche: who is allah doing now and is it consensual?
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2017-04-04T04:13:02Z noethics: are there any ways scheme compilers optimize lists with array like structures
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2017-04-04T05:53:42Z wasamasa: noethics: I'm not sure how that would work
2017-04-04T05:54:11Z wasamasa: noethics: wouldn't that make srfi-1 useless?
2017-04-04T05:55:39Z noethics: wasamasa, kind of
2017-04-04T05:55:59Z noethics: you could implement srfi-1 with that structure if it's possible
2017-04-04T05:56:59Z wasamasa: and everything else munching down lists?
2017-04-04T05:57:25Z noethics: wasamasa, i'm talking more like internal representation
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2017-04-04T05:58:05Z noethics: instead of linked lists with a lot of derefs, would a compiler like inline a block of data
2017-04-04T05:58:21Z wasamasa: this kind of thing would make more sense to do if your language ends up not being scheme because then nobody would have illusions about linked lists
2017-04-04T05:58:50Z wasamasa: or using conses at all, see clojure for an example
2017-04-04T05:59:28Z noethics: i don't mind lists
2017-04-04T05:59:37Z noethics: i'm just thinking of an optimal scheme implementation
2017-04-04T06:00:28Z noethics: (trying to :<)
2017-04-04T06:00:49Z noethics: right now i pass these huge list of pointers
2017-04-04T06:00:58Z noethics: and it's just some simple list of integers
2017-04-04T06:01:17Z wasamasa: hence why lots of lisp implementations use tagged pointers
2017-04-04T06:03:07Z wasamasa: work on your internal representation, not on speculatively changing data structures and access to them :P
2017-04-04T06:03:37Z aeth: noethics: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CDR_coding
2017-04-04T06:04:15Z noethics: !
2017-04-04T06:04:25Z noethics: not very good sources
2017-04-04T06:04:25Z ecraven: aeth: hehe, I just wanted to post that
2017-04-04T06:04:28Z noethics: but that's cool
2017-04-04T06:04:33Z noethics: that's what i want
2017-04-04T06:04:34Z ecraven: noethics: it's been around a long time
2017-04-04T06:07:31Z aeth: noethics: last time I brought it up in #lisp someone said that modern Lisp implementations don't do this.
2017-04-04T06:07:43Z noethics: seems bad if they don't
2017-04-04T06:08:04Z aeth: Just use vectors for most things.
2017-04-04T06:08:17Z noethics: do they not because it's harder?
2017-04-04T06:08:26Z aeth: Probably because conses are mutable
2017-04-04T06:08:38Z aeth: Maybe Racket uses an optimization like CDR coding.
2017-04-04T06:09:00Z noethics: " This can be accomplished with some inefficiency in software by the use of tagged pointers, which allow a pointer in a final position to be specifically tagged as such, but is best done in hardware."
2017-04-04T06:09:01Z noethics: :D
2017-04-04T06:09:30Z noethics: racket probably does that?
2017-04-04T06:09:36Z noethics: like wasamasa mentioned
2017-04-04T06:09:49Z aeth: No, they could do *an* optimization on linked lists.
2017-04-04T06:10:02Z wasamasa: at this point I link to http://www.call-with-current-continuation.org/scheme-implementation-techniques.pdf
2017-04-04T06:10:11Z noethics: well you would either use tagged pointers, or you'd just make the lists contiguous right?
2017-04-04T06:10:45Z noethics: contiguous [in memory]
2017-04-04T06:11:03Z wasamasa: a contiguous array of pointers makes very little sense
2017-04-04T06:11:13Z noethics: of values
2017-04-04T06:11:22Z wasamasa: most values *are* pointers
2017-04-04T06:11:42Z noethics: lists add another dereference though
2017-04-04T06:11:46Z wasamasa: hence why lots of lisp implementations use pointer tagging to encode integers and other immediates
2017-04-04T06:11:49Z noethics: unless i guess you do CDR coding
2017-04-04T06:12:18Z wasamasa: there's srfi-4 if you ever want a C array of integers or floats
2017-04-04T06:13:49Z wasamasa: I wonder what your opinion on lua is
2017-04-04T06:14:01Z noethics: never implemented lua
2017-04-04T06:14:17Z wasamasa: "It must be so inefficient to use hash tables for everything, why don't they optimize the most obvious uses to arrays?"
2017-04-04T06:14:41Z noethics: hashtables can be super efficient :D
2017-04-04T06:14:45Z noethics: lists are sort of not
2017-04-04T06:15:55Z noethics: like the concept of using them in the language is good, but the low level representation i think is better with CDR coding
2017-04-04T06:18:47Z aeth: or just don't use lists where linked lists aren't the best representation for data
2017-04-04T06:19:26Z aeth: That way you'll never have to worry that the compiler isn't doing the magic to make your list into an array when you want an array, or make your alist into a hash table when you want a hash table.
2017-04-04T06:19:28Z noethics: you can't get away from massive amount of lists writing any lisp
2017-04-04T06:19:47Z aeth: You cannot avoid lists when you're working with macros, but otherwise you can mostly avoid them. Almost entirely.
2017-04-04T06:20:07Z aeth: And most applications don't need their own macros.
2017-04-04T06:20:47Z noethics: i don't get what macros have to do with it
2017-04-04T06:21:10Z aeth: You're required to use lists in macros (because s-expressions are trees of cons pairs).
2017-04-04T06:21:44Z noethics: okay, you're required to use list for application
2017-04-04T06:21:45Z aeth: You also need to use lists in e.g. alists or (in CL or Schemes that copy CL) plists (but often hash tables are much faster if you have a choice)
2017-04-04T06:21:57Z aeth: (even for very small amounts of data)
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2017-04-04T06:24:53Z aeth: wasamasa: Lua is in fact inefficient. :-p
2017-04-04T06:25:04Z wasamasa: aeth: yeah, that's what I was hinting at
2017-04-04T06:25:17Z aeth: It uses a JIT that might do magical optimizations, though.
2017-04-04T06:25:27Z aeth: I know JS JITs do magical optimizations sometimes.
2017-04-04T06:25:30Z wasamasa: pretty much everything without design for it (see every APL descendant) or a sufficiently smart compiler is
2017-04-04T06:25:47Z wasamasa: noethics: you should be just using K
2017-04-04T06:26:05Z noethics: wasamasa, what's that
2017-04-04T06:26:18Z wasamasa: an array processing language
2017-04-04T06:26:24Z noethics: lol
2017-04-04T06:26:43Z noethics: +
2017-04-04T06:26:47Z wasamasa: no, that's not what APL means, that's just A Programming Language
2017-04-04T06:27:21Z aeth: wasamasa: There are degrees of inefficiency. e.g. In some CLs, especially SBCL, you can have specialized arrays on bits or single-floats, etc., and even put them in structs that expect just that type of array (which includes the size)
2017-04-04T06:28:09Z aeth: (bits were a bad example, CLs are required to have bit arrays like Schemes are required to have byte arrays... I guess they don't *have* to be efficient, though)
2017-04-04T06:28:28Z wasamasa: but do they?
2017-04-04T06:28:40Z wasamasa: or is that a r7rs thing?
2017-04-04T06:28:45Z noethics: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/J_(programming_language)
2017-04-04T06:28:50Z noethics: lol
2017-04-04T06:28:51Z aeth: wasamasa: r7rs is Scheme.
2017-04-04T06:28:58Z aeth: It has been, what? 4 years?
2017-04-04T06:29:03Z wasamasa: yeah and I don't really know that standard
2017-04-04T06:29:11Z aeth: When I talk of Scheme requirements, I talk of r7rs requirements.
2017-04-04T06:29:15Z wasamasa: but I'm pretty sure srfi-4 is not part of r5rs
2017-04-04T06:30:22Z aeth: Well, we talk about hygienic macros being a part of Scheme even though they're in the appendix of r4rs iirc
2017-04-04T06:30:29Z aeth: So at some point we go to the latest standard.
2017-04-04T06:30:39Z wasamasa: maybe in five more years
2017-04-04T06:30:52Z aeth: Most major Schemes at least have partial compliance now afaik.
2017-04-04T06:31:13Z aeth: http://trac.sacrideo.us/wg/wiki/ImplementationSupport
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2017-04-04T06:41:13Z aeth: wasamasa: I guess that's the advantage of CL. There are no standards to choose from, just one permanent standard.
2017-04-04T06:41:22Z aeth: So if something's in the standard, it's in The Standard.
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2017-04-04T06:41:55Z aeth: By the time everyone knows r7rs, Scheme will be on r9rs
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2017-04-04T06:57:00Z ecraven: I still think that r7rs will find more support than r6rs had
2017-04-04T06:57:21Z ecraven: so at some point (not too far in the future), the major implementations will mostly have r7rs support ;D
2017-04-04T06:57:51Z ecraven: I should continue working on this: https://ecraven.github.io/r7rs-coverage/stats.html
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2017-04-04T07:00:20Z X-Scale: Just checked: R4RS had 55 pages while R5RS had only 50 pages. That's telling.
2017-04-04T07:06:09Z dpk: R7RS Small has the advantage of being essentially compatible with both R6RS and R5RS
2017-04-04T07:06:46Z dpk: in, afaict, that it's possible to define an implementation that claim compatibility with all three at once
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2017-04-04T07:31:30Z wasamasa: aeth: I guess it's CL propaganda time again
2017-04-04T07:31:58Z wasamasa: aeth: sometimes I wonder whether that abbreviation doesn't actually stand for Communistic Lisp
2017-04-04T07:32:14Z aeth: wasamasa: Your sarcasm detector is broken.
2017-04-04T07:32:32Z aeth: A permanent standard is a terrible idea for a thing run on computers
2017-04-04T07:32:37Z aeth: At least, this century.
2017-04-04T07:32:56Z wasamasa: so is communism
2017-04-04T07:33:19Z wasamasa: the more I think about it, the more soviet this whole situation appears to me
2017-04-04T07:33:54Z wasamasa: why else would diehard CL fans spend their time on #scheme, the most unlikely place to recruit new comrades at
2017-04-04T07:34:08Z wasamasa: it's to spread the glorious news of the one lisp to unite them all!!!
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2017-04-04T07:34:36Z aeth: Common Lisp *is* communist.
2017-04-04T07:34:43Z wasamasa: yup, called it
2017-04-04T07:34:55Z wasamasa: now port it to the trinary computer
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2017-04-04T07:35:20Z aeth: The most popular implementation of CL is public domain because intellectual property is bourgeois.
2017-04-04T07:36:03Z C-Keen: A spectre is haunting the IRC channels
2017-04-04T07:37:34Z wasamasa: all we need now is a gorbachev to bring their vision of glasnost to freenode, shattering the tyranny of #lisp in the process
2017-04-04T07:38:36Z wasamasa: which will happen due to its extremely weak economic powers^W^Wpractical irrelevance
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2017-04-04T07:42:06Z wasamasa: the new leadership will then have the defacto power over all things lisp and instead of old-fashioned propaganda spread news of it doing cool things, like riding on bears^W^W^Wbodacious programming books
2017-04-04T07:46:56Z aeth: Any reply I make will further drag this channel off-topic, including this one. It's an interesting trap.
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2017-04-04T07:48:32Z wasamasa: right, The Professional Lisp Programmer™ wouldn't do that
2017-04-04T07:49:22Z wasamasa has been reading Let Over Lambda recently
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2017-04-04T08:17:03Z C-Keen: how do you like it wasamasa
2017-04-04T08:22:49Z wasamasa: it's enlightening, but the language bashing quickly gets old
2017-04-04T08:23:25Z wasamasa: so far, the only language getting praise is... Perl
2017-04-04T08:23:36Z wasamasa: yes, seriously
2017-04-04T08:24:41Z wasamasa: it's fair game to make fun of blubs, C and scheme, but perl is beyond that
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2017-04-04T08:25:19Z wasamasa: I think I understand now what technomancy meant when comparing it to the book of Mormon
2017-04-04T08:26:07Z C-Keen: yeah the tone is rather hindering
2017-04-04T08:26:26Z C-Keen: there are some nice ideas in there which have been new to me
2017-04-04T08:26:52Z wasamasa: the explanation of closures is excellent
2017-04-04T08:26:57Z C-Keen: also since I never really spent a lot of time with unhygienic macros the anaphoric things where also interesting to me
2017-04-04T08:27:07Z C-Keen: oh yes!
2017-04-04T08:27:13Z wasamasa: I'm currently at that chapter
2017-04-04T08:27:34Z wasamasa: alet is an interesting idea
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2017-04-04T08:28:23Z C-Keen: yeah
2017-04-04T08:28:28Z wasamasa: I wonder whether On Lisp will be a similar read
2017-04-04T08:29:45Z wasamasa: I recommended Let over Lambda to someone else to understand the power of macros and he compared the tone to the Tenacious D intro
2017-04-04T08:30:47Z C-Keen: wasamasa: no it won't, it will most likely put you to sleep
2017-04-04T08:31:38Z C-Keen: while the tone is unnerving at times it conveys something about the excitement of the author, whereas On Lisp has none of that
2017-04-04T08:44:12Z wasamasa: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=80DtQD5BQ_A
2017-04-04T08:45:20Z wasamasa: <earnestly> wasamasa: "This next, uh, next language asked me not to read this, but god damnit, I'm going to read it anyway, because I wrote it and it's the truth. I FUCKING LOVE THIS LANGUAGE, IT IS THE BEST LANGUAGE EVER, PERIOD! Ladies and gentlemen, COOOOOMMMOOON LIIIIISSSSSP!"
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2017-04-04T13:24:19Z jcowan: The general feeling about cdr-coded lists (though I doubt anyone has measured lately) is that the cost of having three cases instead of just one for cdr outweighs the cost of potentially jumping around a lot in memory.
2017-04-04T13:24:37Z jcowan: Particularly if most lists are allocated all at once, and therefore tend to be contiguous in memory anyhow.
2017-04-04T13:25:01Z jcowan: And of course it does make mutation expensive, though not impossible.
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2017-04-04T16:30:15Z ecraven: also, the GC can compact lists, right?
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2017-04-04T18:32:04Z jcowan_: ecraven: Indeed
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2017-04-04T19:00:21Z pjb: jcowan_: the question of cdr-coding could be revisited, nowadays that caches are more important for the performance.
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2017-04-04T19:02:22Z pjb: jcowan_: notably, there are arguments made by Soustroup for C++ vectors vs. linked lists.  Of course, the use case of lists, particularly as used in lisp is quite different than for vectors, but he may have some truth wrt cache lines.
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2017-04-04T19:18:19Z ecraven: hm.. Someone™ should write a simple
2017-04-04T19:18:25Z ecraven: c program to test the obvious cases
2017-04-04T19:18:36Z ecraven: but of course actual list usage in a non-trivial lisp program is bound to be more complex
2017-04-04T19:19:04Z pjb: Yes, you would want to benchmark it on real lisp or scheme applications.
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2017-04-04T19:47:37Z f-a: I have a simple game in mind and started writing in it in html5/js. I wonder which scheme (or scheme-like) to pick if I don't want to use js directly?
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2017-04-04T19:56:41Z wasamasa: f-a: clojure is the most mature solution for this problem space
2017-04-04T19:57:01Z wasamasa: f-a: I'd probably write it in vanilla JS because that's the easiest to debug
2017-04-04T19:57:25Z wasamasa: f-a: you may find http://ceaude.twoticketsplease.de/js-lisps.html useful, as dated as it is
2017-04-04T19:57:36Z f-a: wasamasa: thanks, I don't know why but I never liked js much
2017-04-04T19:57:43Z f-a: ohh very nice
2017-04-04T19:58:25Z wasamasa: it's been five years since this table was made, there are undoubtedly newer solutions out there
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2017-04-04T21:15:45Z jcowan_: I would guess that Spock and Biwa are in the best shape, but my test suite doesn't contain JS-based Schemes
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2017-04-05T05:50:53Z BW^-: Anyone has a photocopy of "Rodney A. Brooks. Trading data space for reduced time and code space in real-time garbage collection on stock hardware. In LFP ’84: Proceedings of the 1984 ACM Symposium on LISP and functional programming, pages 256262, New York, NY, USA, 1984. ACM."?
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2017-04-05T06:14:55Z wasamasa: BW^-: I've found a pdf of it
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2017-04-05T06:43:17Z BW^-: wasamasa: cool! URL?
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2017-04-05T07:05:01Z wasamasa: you got PM
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2017-04-05T09:01:38Z ecraven: hm.. can anyone verify the following:  in an emacs buffer with paredit enabled (and | being point) with the following content: (define foo|) ⍺ (foo)  if you type C-), all of ⍺ (foo) gets slurped, instead of just ⍺
2017-04-05T09:03:08Z z0d: ecraven: C-right arrow?
2017-04-05T09:03:55Z ecraven: z0d: same problem here
2017-04-05T09:06:48Z z0d: what happens if point is before "foo"?
2017-04-05T09:07:00Z z0d: or, if alpha is not a unicode character?
2017-04-05T09:07:07Z ecraven: it works with ascii characters
2017-04-05T09:07:12Z z0d: oh, ok
2017-04-05T09:07:14Z ecraven: the problem seems to be the alpha
2017-04-05T09:07:18Z z0d: so at least we know what causes it
2017-04-05T09:07:26Z ecraven: I've started using all kinds of fancy characters ;D
2017-04-05T09:07:29Z z0d: well, I'd say file a bug report
2017-04-05T09:07:33Z ecraven: and chibi luckily supports this
2017-04-05T09:07:35Z ecraven: z0d: where ;
2017-04-05T09:07:36Z ecraven: :-/
2017-04-05T09:07:46Z ecraven: ah, paredit is part of emacs now, right?
2017-04-05T09:08:07Z z0d: no
2017-04-05T09:08:07Z ecraven: hm.. no, I installed it via elpa, it seems
2017-04-05T09:08:21Z z0d: it's: "the author's surname at mumble.net.
2017-04-05T09:08:23Z z0d: "
2017-04-05T09:08:26Z ecraven: ok
2017-04-05T09:08:48Z z0d: the author is Taylor Campbell
2017-04-05T09:08:58Z ecraven: yea, thanks
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2017-04-05T09:25:31Z BW^-: wasamasa: thx!!!
2017-04-05T10:02:15Z lritter: is there a special name for an iterator that multiplies two sequences (a b c) and (x y z) to output (a x) (a y) (a z) (b x) (b y) (b z) (c x) (c y) (c z)?
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2017-04-05T10:22:58Z ecraven: in APL that is called an inner product
2017-04-05T10:23:17Z ecraven: something with "combinations" might be a good name too
2017-04-05T10:23:55Z larsen: cartesian product?
2017-04-05T10:24:57Z larsen: (which would be more appropriate talking about sets, rather than sequences)
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2017-04-05T10:49:20Z DKordic: lritter: `zipWith' in Haskell?
2017-04-05T10:51:06Z profan_: lritter: still lurking in paren-land i see
2017-04-05T10:51:23Z DKordic: Sorry, `zip' is not a product :) .
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2017-04-05T12:23:22Z lritter: DKordic, yeah i figured it out meanwhile, it's called a cartesian product
2017-04-05T12:23:37Z lritter: profan, yes of course :) i'm building a schemelike
2017-04-05T12:23:51Z lritter: (with implicit parentheses thx to indenting)
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2017-04-05T16:07:54Z jcowan: Question:  <math.h>, the C flonum API, has dual procedures in certain cases to cope with the possibility that the base of flonums is not 2 (that is, there is a base-2 operation that may or may not be efficient, and a native-base operation that is always efficient).
2017-04-05T16:08:31Z jcowan: Is there any utility in preserving this duality?  The only machines I know of that still have non-base-2 arithmetic are IBM Z-series (aka 360-390) machines, and even they support IEEE as well.
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2017-04-05T16:14:00Z qu1j0t3: jcowan: hasn't more recent IEEE restored non binary arithmetic? /me goes to look it up
2017-04-05T16:14:11Z jcowan: Yes, it has
2017-04-05T16:14:20Z qu1j0t3: so that would be a sign wouldn't it?
2017-04-05T16:14:21Z qu1j0t3 giggles
2017-04-05T16:14:40Z jcowan: But I think it's unlikely that anyone would implement the C "double" type as decimal fp
2017-04-05T16:14:59Z jcowan: When the committee gets around to it, there will probably be <decimal.h> or something like it.
2017-04-05T16:17:58Z jcowan: whereas C on Z-Series uses (or used to use) native floats, which are base-16
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2017-04-05T16:22:34Z jcowan: Old Burroughs machines used base-8, and the MANIAC II used base-65536.
2017-04-05T16:22:52Z jcowan: (it also had no integer format)
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2017-04-05T16:26:24Z jcowan: Apparently _Decimal{32,64,128} types are supported in software by libdfp
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2017-04-05T16:35:12Z qu1j0t3: jcowan: Oh, certainly.
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2017-04-05T16:35:36Z qu1j0t3: jcowan: if these things are meant to work on `double` then yeah, just assume binary and document it :)
2017-04-05T16:37:08Z jcowan: They are meant to work on Scheme flonums, and on all known implementations, flonums are C/JVM/NET doubles
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2017-04-06T08:57:10Z ecraven: foof`: is it considered an error that (append 1 2 '(foo bar) '(baaz quux))  silently drops 1 and 2 (no error, they are just ignored)?
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2017-04-06T11:06:01Z ecraven: how do I pretty-print s-expressions in chibi?
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2017-04-06T11:19:57Z ekkelett: I've got a relatively simple issue, and it's fairly specific, so I hope I'm not suffering from this being an XY problem situation.
2017-04-06T11:21:15Z ekkelett: With dotted tail notation, e.g. variadic arguments, a function receives a list of remaining variables. In that context, how can I unpack the list as separate arguments when calling for another function?
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2017-04-06T11:30:45Z ekkelett: It seems like (apply) must've been the contender all along!
2017-04-06T11:32:15Z ecraven: apply is indeed the way to go
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2017-04-06T13:43:47Z ILiuz: I am trying to use the code from the SICP exercise 3.2.7 on memoization, to write a procedure that returns a memoized version of a procedure that takes a variadic amount of arguments. Phew, what a sentence. Has anyone done something similar?
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2017-04-06T14:12:27Z ekkelett: ILiuz: ehehe
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2017-04-06T14:13:35Z ILiuz: ekkelett ? :)
2017-04-06T14:14:33Z ekkelett: ILiuz: You don't happen to have a deadline too, eh? :) If so, which I suspect, you might've already touched on what could be used to do it in a clean way.
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2017-04-08T05:00:43Z jusss: how to write dsl with scheme?
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2017-04-08T09:14:07Z taylan: juanfra: define-syntax, syntax-rules, and syntax-case or other procedural macro forms if your scheme implementation of choice supports it
2017-04-08T09:15:04Z taylan: there's no clear line between what's an embedded DSL and what's just a few macros to make life easier...
2017-04-08T09:29:53Z pjb: it's 50 shades of grey there…
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2017-04-08T09:38:31Z taylan: please no
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2017-04-08T10:24:00Z Blukunfando: I guess we could make a language in which characters can be written in fifty shades of grey, and it matters.
2017-04-08T10:36:24Z edgar-rft: let's implement color-scheme :-)
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2017-04-08T11:59:06Z BW^-: hey
2017-04-08T11:59:38Z BW^-: if anyone of you finds yourself to be a good Scheme + C hacker, and would like to get in touch with a startup that may get to have a work opportunity for you, then do ping me.
2017-04-08T12:08:02Z dTal: define "good"
2017-04-08T12:09:38Z BW^-: dTal: i have time to be over-inclusive in primary conversations.
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2017-04-08T12:10:07Z BW^-: dTal: so I pass the definition of "good" back to you. i guess a good definition would be, "good = you think you're good or you think it's possible that someone else who knows something, thinks you're really good, even if you would not"
2017-04-08T12:10:49Z BW^-: dTal: how come the question. do you find yourself to be good at scheme + c?
2017-04-08T12:11:34Z dTal: Better than the man on the street :) But I've never written what I would consider a "real" application in Scheme
2017-04-08T12:11:42Z dTal: then again hardly anyone seems to have
2017-04-08T12:12:35Z BW^-: dTal: ok
2017-04-08T12:12:40Z BW^-: dTal: yes of course it's unusual. i have though.
2017-04-08T12:12:43Z BW^-: dTal: on what continent are you?
2017-04-08T12:13:50Z dTal: In the UK, so Europe I think technically
2017-04-08T12:14:00Z BW^-: cool ok!
2017-04-08T12:14:02Z dTal: what, I gotta be a geography expert too? :p
2017-04-08T12:14:10Z BW^-: haha. no.
2017-04-08T12:14:44Z BW^-: defining a mapping of countries to continents is totally unrelated, lol.
2017-04-08T12:15:11Z BW^-: dtal: what have you coded?
2017-04-08T12:17:35Z dTal: Well, if I'm gonna lead with the strong stuff... the entire software stack for this: http://www.dailypost.co.uk/business/hollywood-calls-st-asaph-hologram-7897413
2017-04-08T12:18:25Z BW^-: dtal: cool!
2017-04-08T12:18:36Z dTal: C for realtime and offline imaging, Python and bash for most everything else
2017-04-08T12:19:20Z dTal: In Scheme, just mandelbrot viewers and kids stuff like that.
2017-04-08T12:19:47Z BW^-: ok!
2017-04-08T12:19:56Z BW^-: dtal: what kind of problems do you like solving?
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2017-04-08T18:51:25Z uczy: This is a very confused thought, but would it be possible to implement a Lisp wherein the environment is contained in the program itself? So not only the code is data, the state is as well.
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2017-04-08T18:58:25Z uczy: Hm, that would mean that the interpreter has no (or negligible) own state
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2017-04-08T19:26:45Z ecraven: uczy: you mean like a world image?
2017-04-08T19:27:30Z uczy: ecraven: Yes, I've heard that Lisp machines had process images. But I guess they weren't represented as an AST
2017-04-08T19:27:55Z ecraven: what do you mean by "the environment"?
2017-04-08T19:28:02Z ecraven: there are "modern
2017-04-08T19:28:16Z ecraven: " schemes that have world images too... mit does, for example
2017-04-08T19:29:31Z uczy: the stack frame, essentially
2017-04-08T19:30:05Z ecraven: that is accessible for reflection and debugging in most scheme systems
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2017-04-08T19:30:33Z uczy: only indirectly, though
2017-04-08T19:30:49Z ecraven: what do you mean, "indirectly"?
2017-04-08T19:31:34Z uczy: It's not part of the program representation. State and program are always separated
2017-04-08T19:32:05Z ecraven: how is it not part of the program representation if you can easily access it?
2017-04-08T19:32:16Z ecraven: Sorry, maybe I'm just misunderstanding something obvious here
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2017-04-08T19:34:17Z uczy: In essence, I'm looking for a programming language in which the state is part of the AST. So far I've only found one (https://github.com/cgyarvin/urbit/blob/master/doc/book/1-nock.markdown) - a lispy combinator interpreter. Any program state is mapped to a tree
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2017-04-08T19:34:53Z uczy: The "interpreter" is essentially just pattern matching
2017-04-08T19:36:17Z uczy: I was looking at Stackless Python's ability to serialize continuations: http://stackless.readthedocs.io/en/2.7-slp/library/stackless/pickling.html
2017-04-08T19:37:00Z uczy: and then schedule them again, even for a specific amount of steps (in an AST-based language these would be reductions, like Erlang)
2017-04-08T19:38:30Z uczy: However, Python is difficult to sandbox _within_ the program, without using an external specialized interpreter, like PyPys sandbox
2017-04-08T19:39:04Z uczy: and now I'm looking for a language which can do all of this
2017-04-08T19:49:08Z ecraven: hm.. sorry, no idea about that
2017-04-08T19:51:28Z uczy: ecraven: Thank you anyway! I'm surprised such a language doesn't already exist because these two properties are in some form necessary for distributed computing
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2017-04-08T20:10:22Z amz3`: I pushed a small doc about my framework https://amirouche.github.io/forward.scm/
2017-04-08T20:10:31Z amz3`: and published a post on the mailling list
2017-04-08T20:10:34Z amz3`: feedback welcome!
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2017-04-08T21:55:41Z noethics: stupid question: why doesn't `(car (cons 1 2))` parse as `(car . ((cons . (1 . (2 . '()))) . '()))`
2017-04-08T21:57:09Z Riastradh: 'Cos it's not (car (cons 1 2 quote ()) quote ()).
2017-04-08T22:00:14Z noethics: i'm talking about the data representation
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2017-04-08T22:04:47Z noethics: under the same premise, what you said would parse as (car . (((cons . (1 . (2 . ('() '())))) . ('() '()))) or whatever?
2017-04-08T22:04:58Z Riastradh: Note '() = (quote ()).
2017-04-08T22:05:03Z noethics: i know
2017-04-08T22:05:54Z Riastradh: So (car (cons 1 2)) = (car . ((cons 1 2) . ())) = (car . ((cons . (1 . (2 . ()))) . ())).
2017-04-08T22:06:43Z noethics: is an interpreter supposed to reduce that at read time?
2017-04-08T22:07:03Z Riastradh: It does.
2017-04-08T22:07:28Z noethics: ok thanks
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2017-04-08T23:51:16Z wgreenberg_: how does "(define ...)" not matched by the "(variable? exp)" predicate in https://mitpress.mit.edu/sicp/full-text/sicp/book/node77.html
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2017-04-08T23:51:42Z wgreenberg_: I'm trying to write an SICP-ish interpreter but my define statements are getting eval'd as variables
2017-04-08T23:51:58Z wgreenberg_: since it defines (variable? exp) to be the same as (symbol? exp)
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2017-04-08T23:55:59Z pjb: In eval, exp = (define foo 'bar)  Then how can (variable? '(define foo 'bar)) return true?
2017-04-08T23:57:03Z wgreenberg_: ah, yeah. (variable? 'define) is true, but not (variable? '(define...))
2017-04-08T23:57:24Z pjb: You should have (definition? '(define foo 'bar)), and then it should call (eval-definition '(define foo 'bar) env)
2017-04-09T00:00:28Z wgreenberg_: also is it generally true that 'exp == (quote exp)?
2017-04-09T00:00:36Z pjb: Yes.
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2017-04-09T04:47:00Z wgreenberg_: am I wrong in thinking it's impossible to reimplement cons inside of lisp without using cons?
2017-04-09T04:49:51Z wgreenberg_: I guess set-cdr! would be the way to do it
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2017-04-09T05:04:05Z aeth: There are many, many ways to reimplement cons.
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2017-04-09T14:02:59Z amz3`: and... I added a router to forward:)
2017-04-09T14:05:41Z amz3`: nobody commented on my work :(
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2017-04-09T14:14:20Z eatonphil: amz3`: where are those js-* functions defined?
2017-04-09T14:14:41Z amz3`: eatonphil: in biwascheme
2017-04-09T14:14:52Z amz3`: http://www.biwascheme.org/doc/reference.html
2017-04-09T14:14:56Z eatonphil: doesn't seem like you describe any of your dependencies in the repo
2017-04-09T14:15:10Z amz3`: eatonphil: right
2017-04-09T14:15:58Z amz3`: everything is the repository, in static/ directory. Otherwise the entry point is index.html
2017-04-09T14:16:12Z eatonphil: oh I see
2017-04-09T14:16:38Z eatonphil: man, a scheme interpreter in javascript... that's a tough sell for anyone wanting a scheme web framework
2017-04-09T14:17:04Z amz3`: tough sell?
2017-04-09T14:17:48Z amz3`: there is right now, no other solutions to do scheme in the browser, the other solution which is chicken's spock which compiles scheme to javascript
2017-04-09T14:17:53Z amz3`: I could not make spock work
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2017-04-09T14:19:03Z eatonphil: yeah... compile to javascript seems like the only reasonable way in the end, but the interpreter is probably suitable enough for your uses for now
2017-04-09T14:20:31Z amz3`: the problem is that I don't really have a project to work on... right now... I mean I am just trying to clone some random app but without much motivation
2017-04-09T14:21:10Z amz3`: I working on the framework, more that working on particular use case
2017-04-09T14:21:10Z eatonphil: nice. I know the feeling
2017-04-09T14:21:22Z amz3`: ah
2017-04-09T14:22:22Z eatonphil: I see now, you're scripting the entire page in scheme by using the scheme interpreter written in javascript
2017-04-09T14:22:30Z eatonphil: that's neat
2017-04-09T14:26:17Z eatonphil: https://www.reddit.com/r/scheme/comments/1mjm4w/what_is_a_fast_and_reliable_scheme_javascript/
2017-04-09T14:26:20Z eatonphil: interesting thread
2017-04-09T14:27:34Z eatonphil: but I can't seem to find any actual project / source for gambit -> javascript
2017-04-09T14:28:46Z eatonphil: looks like it's just built in actually..
2017-04-09T14:28:48Z eatonphil: gsc -c -target js fib.scm
2017-04-09T14:28:56Z eatonphil: from this post https://webmail.iro.umontreal.ca/pipermail/gambit-list/2013-September/007016.html
2017-04-09T14:30:44Z eatonphil: but you'd probably have to write some helper wrappers around it to get those js-* functions that biwascheme gave you
2017-04-09T14:38:30Z amz3`: does gambit-js use ecmascript ?
2017-04-09T14:38:50Z amz3`: because I read that it's difficult to interact with the browser with that in the mix
2017-04-09T14:39:17Z amz3`: someone posted my work on reddit!
2017-04-09T14:46:03Z amz3`: that's an old version tho
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2017-04-09T18:14:54Z evilbinary: hi
2017-04-09T18:15:02Z evilbinary: no body?
2017-04-09T18:15:10Z qu1j0t3: evilbinary: just ask your question
2017-04-09T18:15:22Z evilbinary: no question
2017-04-09T18:15:47Z evilbinary: wat about scheme game?
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2017-04-09T18:16:56Z wasamasa: what about that?
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2017-04-09T18:20:43Z evil`: 02:20 *** 322 #wulug 12 Topic for #wulug is: Wichita State University Linux User Group | Youtube Channel: https://goo.gl/74COVK | Google Calendar: https://goo.gl/05qDXQ | SIXTH MEETING: 3/28 JB 205-206 5:30pm-7:00pm Topic: Git
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2017-04-09T18:25:37Z qu1j0t3: moar gavino
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2017-04-09T19:21:34Z amz3`: is it ok to compare symbols using eq?
2017-04-09T19:28:53Z amz3`: I never recall what the rule is, eq? is for identity but...
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2017-04-09T19:41:31Z kjak: Ignoring things like uninterned symbols that some implementations may have, you can safely compare symbols with eq?.
2017-04-09T19:48:24Z amz3`: tx
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2017-04-10T15:01:16Z amz3: ecraven: héllo, do you remember me? I am the one doing some frontend stuff with biwascheme in the browser.
2017-04-10T15:01:32Z amz3: ecraven: I reproduce the sluggish behavior in firefox 45.7.0
2017-04-10T15:01:53Z amz3: using debian chromium the sluggish behavior is gone
2017-04-10T15:02:09Z amz3: also using a more recent firefox is gone too
2017-04-10T15:02:14Z amz3: like ff 52
2017-04-10T15:02:21Z amz3: fwiw
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2017-04-10T16:23:30Z ecraven: hey ;)
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2017-04-11T18:27:17Z qu1j0t3: another impl of s-expressions with optional parens https://github.com/be5invis/PatEL
2017-04-11T18:31:33Z jcowan: Reinventing Lisp 2
2017-04-11T18:31:52Z jcowan: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LISP_2
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2017-04-11T19:59:43Z jcowan: akkad: It's foof
2017-04-11T19:59:48Z jcowan: (aka Alex Shinn)
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2017-04-12T00:12:35Z foof`: ecraven: (show out (pretty x))
2017-04-12T00:14:29Z foof`: akkad: it's online, just the front page is blank for some reason, will debug when I get a chance
2017-04-12T00:14:54Z foof`: http://snow-fort.org/pkg/ lists the packages and has a nav menu
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2017-04-12T00:31:58Z akkad: so these are supported. nice chibi,chicken,gauche,larceny,sagittarius
2017-04-12T00:31:59Z akkad:  
2017-04-12T00:36:14Z qu1j0t3: sounds like a big dinner
2017-04-12T00:36:22Z qu1j0t3: and night out
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2017-04-12T05:01:25Z ecraven: foof`: thanks!
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2017-04-12T05:36:46Z akkad: does anyone actually use sagittarius?
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2017-04-12T09:04:51Z Vermie: Hello?
2017-04-12T09:05:03Z Vermie: Can somebody help me?
2017-04-12T09:05:19Z Vermie: I wanted to know -- how EXACTLY is (syntax-rules)'s pattern language specified?
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2017-04-12T09:11:42Z Vermie: ???
2017-04-12T09:12:51Z akkad: Vermie: is this for chez?
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2017-04-12T09:13:07Z Vermie: akkad: No, I am building my own Scheme implementation this semester
2017-04-12T09:13:18Z Vermie: But I'm having a hard time understand the exact semantics of the pattern langauge
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2017-04-12T09:13:48Z Vermie: like, the definition for (let) basically matches to (expr1 value1) ... but then expands the two terms separately in different places
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2017-04-12T09:18:28Z greatscottttt: Vermie: would the R5RS document be good enough?
2017-04-12T09:18:31Z greatscottttt: http://www.schemers.org/Documents/Standards/R5RS/HTML/r5rs-Z-H-7.html#%_sec_4.3.2
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2017-04-12T09:30:46Z Vermie: greatscottttt: No it's not.
2017-04-12T09:30:53Z Vermie: I read both R7RS and R5RS already
2017-04-12T09:31:36Z greatscottttt: have you looked at how other schemes implement it?
2017-04-12T09:31:45Z Vermie: That's why I'm here
2017-04-12T09:32:08Z Vermie: I find it hard to figure out exactly where the rubber hits the road because I've looked at Chibi and tried Racket
2017-04-12T09:32:19Z Vermie: But it's not very clear -- the algorithmic meat isn't explicit
2017-04-12T09:32:26Z Vermie: At least, that's how I feel
2017-04-12T09:32:36Z Vermie: and the material around the net is focused on how to use it, not necessarily on how to implement it
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2017-04-12T09:34:37Z jackdaniel: lisp in small pieces is a good book to work with in this regard
2017-04-12T09:35:15Z Vermie: I wish I had it honestly
2017-04-12T09:35:15Z jackdaniel: finished implementations have probably many optimization / kludges which fit some internals you shouldn't be concerned with
2017-04-12T09:36:52Z Vermie: jackdaniel: I'm very aware of that -- sigh.
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2017-04-12T16:11:24Z mejja: rudybot: Primal therapy is a trauma-based psychotherapy created by Arthur Janov, who argues that neurosis is caused by the repressed pain of windows dll dependency hell.
2017-04-12T16:11:39Z rudybot: mejja: slyly replaces M-x doctor with Arthur Janov
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2017-04-12T18:20:16Z akkad: ugg. (newline) is very confusing. why not use the much more obvious (terpri)?
2017-04-12T18:20:42Z gwatt: wat
2017-04-12T18:20:54Z akkad: </sarcasm?
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2017-04-12T18:21:25Z akkad: just finding names of functions in scheme very refreshing compared to cl
2017-04-12T18:21:41Z gwatt: I had never heard of terpri before
2017-04-12T18:21:57Z gwatt: fresh-line is a good name
2017-04-12T18:22:45Z akkad: much less stressful having a lisp that does not yell at you
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2017-04-12T18:23:14Z gwatt: yeah, I'm not a fan of the ALL-CAPS
2017-04-12T18:23:37Z gwatt: but at least in CL you don't need to write in all caps
2017-04-12T18:23:50Z qu1j0t3: TERPRI is a winner
2017-04-12T18:23:53Z akkad: right, but all compiler output/warnings will be
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2017-04-12T18:24:35Z gwatt: I bet you could modify the writer to downcase symbols
2017-04-12T18:26:01Z akkad: yeap. on some you can. PRINT-DOWNCASE
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2017-04-12T18:28:25Z akkad: do you have symbols the same way in scheme? e.g. :foo 'bar
2017-04-12T18:29:10Z gwatt: There's no (official) keywords like in CL
2017-04-12T18:29:45Z akkad: ahh just quote
2017-04-12T18:29:52Z gwatt: '|...| works as in CL too
2017-04-12T18:29:58Z akkad: implementation dependent
2017-04-12T18:30:02Z akkad: ohh
2017-04-12T18:30:03Z akkad: nice
2017-04-12T18:30:24Z gwatt: I think racket and guile support keywords with #:...
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2017-04-12T18:36:05Z akkad: pretty easy porting, much more so than I expected
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2017-04-12T18:48:13Z akkad: so is (symbol? (quote foo)) => #f
2017-04-12T18:48:30Z akkad: rather it is. thought 'foo would make it a symbol.
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2017-04-12T18:50:36Z pjb: foo is a symbol.
2017-04-12T18:50:37Z akkad: ahh '("not" "a" "proper" "list")
2017-04-12T18:50:45Z pjb: 'foo is a list containing two symbols: quote and foo.
2017-04-12T18:51:02Z pjb: when you evaluate this list, you get the symbol foo.
2017-04-12T18:51:04Z akkad: yeah. odd
2017-04-12T18:51:25Z pjb: '("not" "a" "proper" "list") is a proper list of 2 elements. quote and ("not" "a" "proper" "list").
2017-04-12T18:51:33Z pjb: ("not" "a" "proper" "list") is a probler list of 4 elements, all strings.
2017-04-12T18:51:45Z pjb: '("not" "a" "proper" "list") evaluates to ("not" "a" "proper" "list")
2017-04-12T18:51:52Z akkad: right. ok. so unlike cl you dont need to quote lists
2017-04-12T18:52:19Z pjb: ("not" "a" "proper" "list") doesn't evaluate to anything (trying to evaluate it will signal an error) since "not" evaluates to a string, and not to a function.
2017-04-12T18:52:19Z akkad: how would it not assume the car is a function?
2017-04-12T18:52:28Z pjb: akkad: it's exactly the same in CL.
2017-04-12T18:52:32Z akkad: ok
2017-04-12T18:52:42Z akkad: I must be doing something wrong then. thanks
2017-04-12T18:52:53Z pjb: Only in CL: ("not" "a" "proper" "list") doesn't evaluate to anything (trying to evaluate it will signal an error) since "not" is a string, and not the name of a function.
2017-04-12T18:53:01Z akkad: ahh. (define *fields* '( 'a 'b 'c 'd))
2017-04-12T18:53:09Z akkad: having been :a :b :c :d in cl
2017-04-12T18:53:10Z pjb: This is usually wrong.
2017-04-12T18:53:21Z pjb: (coming from a newbie, it's most probably wrong).
2017-04-12T18:53:28Z akkad: yeap
2017-04-12T18:53:35Z pjb: (coming from an expert lisper, it could be correct).
2017-04-12T18:53:36Z akkad: can't just s/:/'/
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2017-04-12T18:53:49Z akkad: pjb: I know you from #lisp :P
2017-04-12T18:54:11Z pjb: But I would rather write (map (lambda (a) (list 'quote a)) '(a b c d))  #| --> ('a 'b 'c 'd) |#  to obtain that list of forms.
2017-04-12T18:54:14Z pjb: Yep.
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2017-04-12T18:55:08Z akkad: just trying to get the equivalent list of symbols without "a" "b" then string->symbol
2017-04-12T18:55:20Z pjb: Yes.
2017-04-12T18:55:27Z pjb: string->symbol = cl:intern
2017-04-12T18:56:17Z akkad: https://github.com/kunabi/read-ct/blob/master/read-ct.lisp the *fields* equivalent
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2017-04-12T18:56:39Z akkad: I had tried changing : to ', but that did not seem to yield what I wanted,
2017-04-12T18:56:52Z jcowan: akkad: I ported one of the earliest Lisp programs, a theorem prover written by McCarthy himself, to Scheme pretty much just by some global search and replaces.
2017-04-12T18:57:11Z akkad: jcowan: nice
2017-04-12T18:57:12Z jcowan: The odd thing was that the program is so old that false and the empty list were not yet the same thing, as they are not in Scheme.
2017-04-12T18:57:22Z akkad: hehe
2017-04-12T18:57:30Z akkad: full circle
2017-04-12T18:57:38Z jcowan: http://recycledknowledge.blogspot.com/2011/11/john-mccarthy-inventor-of-lisp-died.html
2017-04-12T18:58:42Z pjb: jcowan: I did the same, but by extending CL to make it run the program as it was.
2017-04-12T18:58:58Z pjb: jcowan: http://informatimago.com/develop/lisp/com/informatimago/small-cl-pgms/wang.html
2017-04-12T18:59:00Z jcowan: T was a variable bound to *T*, which by convention was the true object, and F was a variable bound to *F*, the only false object.  NIL was bound to '().
2017-04-12T18:59:05Z akkad: get-value: (symbol? field) => #f field = (quote awsRegion)
2017-04-12T19:01:19Z akkad: so my question is. is '(:a :b :c :d) in CL equivalent in scheme '( 'a 'b 'c 'd)
2017-04-12T19:01:34Z pjb: No.
2017-04-12T19:01:49Z akkad: or do I need to (map (lambda (x) (string->symbol '( "a" "b" "c" "d"))))
2017-04-12T19:01:49Z pjb: :a in CL is equivalent to keyword:a  and its value is keyword:a
2017-04-12T19:02:04Z pjb: akkad: now, in scheme they don't have the notion of package.
2017-04-12T19:02:05Z akkad: ahh.. my bad
2017-04-12T19:02:20Z akkad: so keyword, not symbol
2017-04-12T19:02:22Z pjb: some scheme have the notion of keyword, but some write them with the colon at the end: a: instead of :a
2017-04-12T19:02:38Z pjb: a keyword is a symbol, so keyword, implies symbol.
2017-04-12T19:02:40Z gwatt: That's srfi 88
2017-04-12T19:02:43Z jcowan: In Chicken you can write :a or a: or #:a.
2017-04-12T19:02:59Z akkad: oh? cool. thanks
2017-04-12T19:02:59Z pjb: most schemes won't care about the colon at all, so you can intern a symbol named ":a" (string->symbol ":a") --> :a
2017-04-12T19:03:09Z pjb: but it has no special meaning and no binding.
2017-04-12T19:03:18Z pjb: You could (define :a ':a) and then use :a
2017-04-12T19:03:57Z akkad: works
2017-04-12T19:03:59Z jcowan: http://trac.sacrideo.us/wg/wiki/KeywordSyntax  <-- which Schemes support what
2017-04-12T19:04:04Z akkad: wonder what I was doing wrong. odd
2017-04-12T19:04:26Z pjb: depending on how they're used, and whether you want to write portable scheme, perhaps it would be a good idea to translate :a to (define kw-a 'kw-a)  and '(:a :b :c) to '(kw-a kw-b kw-c)
2017-04-12T19:05:10Z pjb: Yes, for portability, I would definitely use kw-a.
2017-04-12T19:05:17Z akkad: oh I see    ((eqv? :userIdentity field) was the problem with undef var
2017-04-12T19:05:17Z akkad:  
2017-04-12T19:05:29Z pjb: (define :userIdentity ':userIdentity)
2017-04-12T19:05:43Z jcowan: Here's a somewhat cleaner approach:  http://trac.sacrideo.us/wg/wiki/KeywordArgumentsArcfide
2017-04-12T19:05:48Z pjb: or rather: (define kw-userIdentity 'kw-userIdentity)
2017-04-12T19:06:05Z akkad:  thanks
2017-04-12T19:06:11Z jcowan: a variable is bound to an object that contains its name, and all such objects with the same name compare equal.
2017-04-12T19:07:28Z akkad: ok. I dont have to use keywords. was just lazy
2017-04-12T19:08:05Z jcowan nods.
2017-04-12T19:08:23Z pjb: if you don't use real keywords, but mere symbols, you either have to define them to have themselves as value, or you have to always quote them.
2017-04-12T19:08:28Z jcowan: Another approach that serves the same function as keyword args is quasiquoted p-lists.
2017-04-12T19:08:36Z jcowan: (disembodied p-lists, I mean)
2017-04-12T19:08:53Z pjb: so: '(a b c) <- symbols are "quoted" by the prefix quote around the list.   or 'a
2017-04-12T19:09:01Z jcowan: pjb: arcfide's insight above is that a keyword doesn't have to be a symbol
2017-04-12T19:09:01Z pjb: --> (eql 'user-identity field)
2017-04-12T19:09:17Z gwatt: akkad: you could define a macro (: arg) that returns ':asdf
2017-04-12T19:09:20Z pjb: jcowan: of course, you can make it as complicated as you want.
2017-04-12T19:09:24Z gwatt: I mean ':arg
2017-04-12T19:10:00Z pjb: Just using symbols would be ok. After all, 'foo and :foo are the same number of characters.
2017-04-12T19:14:29Z akkad: went with strings and srfi-13 seems to dtrt
2017-04-12T19:17:33Z akkad: https://github.com/kunabi/kunabi/blob/master/src/database.lisp#L93 is the item I'm porting
2017-04-12T19:18:58Z jcowan: pjb: I just added a link to your version from mine
2017-04-12T19:19:05Z jcowan: (of the McCarthy prover)
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2017-04-12T21:53:23Z akkad: what is the equivalent of destructuring-bind?
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2017-04-12T21:55:45Z pjb: jcowan: well, mine is Wang's algorithm, not McCarthy's.
2017-04-12T21:56:04Z jcowan nods.
2017-04-12T21:56:50Z gwatt: akkad: Nothing official
2017-04-12T21:57:02Z gwatt: Some implementations have a match macro
2017-04-12T21:57:28Z jcowan: pjb: Added a further comment
2017-04-12T21:57:45Z jcowan: gwatt: I intend to propose a match macro in the Yellow Edition
2017-04-12T21:58:05Z gwatt: akkad: And if you want to use something similar for syntactic extension, syntax-rules and syntax-case are your friends (for r6rs)
2017-04-12T21:58:40Z akkad: cool thanks
2017-04-12T21:58:41Z jcowan: http://trac.sacrideo.us/wg/wiki/YellowDocket
2017-04-12T22:01:50Z gwatt: jcowan: http://www.cs.indiana.edu/chezscheme/match/match.ss
2017-04-12T22:02:38Z jcowan: gwatt: Thanks.  I wonder how powerful it is
2017-04-12T22:02:43Z jcowan: s/powerful/portable
2017-04-12T22:06:56Z gwatt: jcowan: at first glance it uses the Chez specific (module ...) syntax
2017-04-12T22:07:57Z jcowan: yeah, no, I meant Chez-specific procedures or syntax keywords within the code.
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2017-04-12T22:17:43Z gwatt: jcowan: at least as far as loading goes: andmap make-parameter add1 syntax-error sub1 with-implicit last-pair make-list
2017-04-12T22:19:12Z jcowan: add1 and sub1 are trivial; make-list, last-pair, make-parameter are all part of R7RS; andmap and with-implicit are not known to me
2017-04-12T22:19:54Z jcowan: I see, andmap is a fold over an and procedure (you can't use "and" itself because it is a syntax keyword)
2017-04-12T22:19:58Z jcowan: ditto for ormap
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2017-04-12T22:20:39Z jcowan: with-implicit is some kind of syntax case thingy
2017-04-12T22:21:07Z jcowan: it can be defined with syntax-rules, but only if you have datum->syntax
2017-04-12T22:22:39Z jcowan: To avoid nassssty dependencies, I don't think I'll let in any syntax that requires more than plain syntax-rules to define it.
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2017-04-12T22:41:21Z noethics: tbh why is the scheme spec so big
2017-04-12T22:41:36Z noethics: it's small comparatively but i think it defines too much stuff :D
2017-04-12T22:41:43Z noethics: it could be so elegant
2017-04-12T22:41:46Z jcowan: Which spec?
2017-04-12T22:41:51Z noethics: r5rs, r7rs
2017-04-12T22:41:56Z noethics: r6rs especially
2017-04-12T22:42:04Z jcowan: Well, it has a lot of libraries
2017-04-12T22:42:10Z noethics: yeah too much junk
2017-04-12T22:42:14Z noethics: and too many numbers
2017-04-12T22:42:15Z noethics: :)
2017-04-12T22:44:32Z jcowan: In that case, just make do with define, quote, lambda, if, set!, car, cdr, cons, null?, pair?, and ().
2017-04-12T22:45:20Z noethics: scheme is unusable without macros
2017-04-12T22:46:05Z jcowan: It's unusable without numbers too, although you can use Von Neumann numbers:  () = 0, (()) = 1, ((())) = 2, etc.
2017-04-12T22:46:15Z noethics: numbers are great :)
2017-04-12T22:46:26Z noethics: the number pyramid in scheme is pretty wild though
2017-04-12T22:48:03Z jcowan: The main reason to standardize procedures and macros is so that code can be interchanged readily.  R7RS-small is about making it possible to write portable libraries; R7RS-large is about "batteries included".
2017-04-12T22:48:10Z jcowan: and portable applications
2017-04-12T22:49:51Z noethics: what makes some scheme unportable?
2017-04-12T22:50:02Z noethics: it's the diversity between scheme implementations, right?
2017-04-12T22:50:09Z jcowan: yes.
2017-04-12T22:50:21Z noethics: because some people say fuck the spec
2017-04-12T22:50:30Z jcowan: No, because the spec is too small!
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2017-04-12T22:50:46Z noethics: i don't think so
2017-04-12T22:50:49Z jcowan: For example, if you want to open a file in append mode, you have to go beyond R5RS.
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2017-04-12T22:50:59Z noethics: people just choose not to have a proper scheme ecosystem
2017-04-12T22:51:20Z noethics: it's not the spec's fault at all. scheme, as per like, lambda papers, would be usable as a fundamental tool to build on top of
2017-04-12T22:51:59Z jcowan: Only if you are okay with being isolated from the outside world.  But if you want to write a web client or server in Scheme, you need to be able to access the socket API.
2017-04-12T22:52:25Z noethics: i like racket
2017-04-12T22:52:29Z jcowan: Many Schemes do provide this access, but each in its own way.
2017-04-12T22:52:38Z noethics: but racket i don't consider like scheme
2017-04-12T22:52:52Z noethics: i know it is just it's pretty diverged :D
2017-04-12T22:53:15Z noethics: i really like the idea of chibi-scheme
2017-04-12T22:53:24Z jcowan: So right now you have to commit to a particular Scheme implementation and just develop for it.  R6RS tried to solve this problem by making all Schemes smell the same, so user code would always be portable.  But it was too much change, too fast, for most existing implementations.
2017-04-12T22:53:50Z noethics: if every scheme just used the same basic primitives i don't see what would be the problem
2017-04-12T22:54:01Z jcowan: What is a basic primitive?
2017-04-12T22:54:11Z jcowan: Posix has 1113 different API calls, for example.
2017-04-12T22:54:11Z noethics: the same forms
2017-04-12T22:54:47Z noethics: that is defined by a sane ffi interface
2017-04-12T22:54:51Z noethics: which should be defined by the spec
2017-04-12T22:54:53Z jcowan: http://andykeep.com/SchemeWorkshop2015/papers/sfpw1-2015-clinger.pdf  <-- a good paper on how R6RS was about portability but R7RS is about interoperability
2017-04-12T22:55:04Z jcowan: FFI is the least portable thing, and probably will be for a loooong time.
2017-04-12T22:55:14Z noethics: it should be the most portable
2017-04-12T22:55:15Z noethics: :D
2017-04-12T22:55:44Z jcowan: Also, the appropriate FFI depends on the substrate:  Schemes implemented in C need a C FFI, but for those running on the JVM or CLR it's a different story.
2017-04-12T22:56:23Z noethics: true
2017-04-12T22:56:33Z noethics: but the calling interface can be standard
2017-04-12T22:57:19Z jcowan: How so?  The things to interface to are different:  in C you need to be able to load DLLs, call functions, and perhaps get access to macros (at least the no-argument kind).
2017-04-12T22:57:39Z jcowan: In JVM it's about instantiating classes, calling methods on them, calling static methods, etc.
2017-04-12T22:58:21Z noethics: at the end of the say it's going to be a function application. standardizing the way that identifiers from a ffi get transformed to scheme tokens for example
2017-04-12T22:58:26Z noethics: end of the day*
2017-04-12T22:58:50Z noethics: and then you build up say, jvm objects through scheme applications .. but that's the user's responsibility
2017-04-12T22:59:42Z jcowan: It's no good just waving your arm like a demented deity and saying "Let these things be implemented by all Schemes."
2017-04-12T22:59:53Z noethics: :(
2017-04-12T23:00:18Z jcowan: The R6RS editors tried that, and it didn't get anywhere.  R7RS-small has had much better takeup so far, and that's because it was carefully steered not to make things too hard for existing implementers.
2017-04-12T23:00:54Z jcowan: For example, R6RS has a hierarchy of condition (exception) objects.  The trouble is that many Schemes have their own hierarchy that doesn't fit with it.  Racket actually has both native and R6RS exceptions as a result.
2017-04-12T23:00:57Z noethics: how about a new spec?
2017-04-12T23:01:13Z noethics: would that be insane
2017-04-12T23:01:16Z noethics: :D
2017-04-12T23:01:26Z noethics: r8rs just decides to rm -rf
2017-04-12T23:01:28Z jcowan: John Shutt's Kernel is a good one, but the result just isn't Scheme
2017-04-12T23:03:06Z jcowan: http://recycledknowledge.blogspot.com/2011/11/john-mccarthy-inventor-of-lisp-died.html  <-- a Lisp program from 1958 that runs correctly in Scheme with only trivial translation
2017-04-12T23:03:41Z jcowan: Lots of people have thrown away Lisp and started over, but Lisp is still here.
2017-04-12T23:04:23Z noethics: that's cool
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2017-04-13T04:58:42Z akkad hunts for a pattern for accumulating from a for-each loop. like cl loop/collect
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2017-04-13T05:10:53Z aeth: collect is the one thing where there isn't really an equivalent to loop (except maybe a library like iterate... do any Schemes have an equivalent?)
2017-04-13T05:11:16Z aeth: At least, not equivalently on the same level of abstraction
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2017-04-13T05:17:20Z akkad: just accumulating on a loop
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2017-04-13T05:18:14Z aeth: Do you mean constructing a list like collect?
2017-04-13T05:19:32Z akkad: yes
2017-04-13T05:20:04Z akkad: assuming rebinding an existing list on the for-each would be expensive
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2017-04-13T05:28:03Z aeth: The two ways (that are basically equivalent) that I can think of would be to implement it with do or with tail recursion (basically equivalent, see r7rs.pdf page 71 for how they are), but either way will be lower level than loop
2017-04-13T05:28:21Z aeth: You'd have to track the cons
2017-04-13T05:29:00Z akkad: k
2017-04-13T05:29:47Z aeth: This is r7rs, your Scheme might have more iteration, unless it's just r5rs with no additions
2017-04-13T05:32:03Z akkad: ok. stuck on r5rs
2017-04-13T05:32:07Z akkad: chicken rather
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2017-04-13T05:55:00Z akkad: ok recursion works.
2017-04-13T05:57:30Z akkad: http://paste.lisp.org/display/344172
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2017-04-13T06:49:51Z BW^-: do you feel it's the most natural to name files with underscores or dashes?
2017-04-13T06:49:55Z BW^-: my-file.scm vs. my_file.scm
2017-04-13T06:50:17Z akkad: lisp tends to prefer -
2017-04-13T06:50:57Z BW^-: akkad: for identifiers in the environment yes. but what about for filenames??
2017-04-13T06:50:58Z BW^-: also then?
2017-04-13T06:51:46Z akkad: yes
2017-04-13T06:51:56Z akkad: foo-bar-baz vs foo_bar_baz
2017-04-13T06:52:53Z BW^-: ok
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2017-04-13T15:33:19Z ertes: i'm trying to understand SRFI-44 for laziness, and here is my understanding: given a promise (delay expr), the expression (lazy (f (delay expr))) is equivalent to (delay (f expr)), so 'lazy' acts like a sort of 'map' for promises…  is my understanding correct?
2017-04-13T15:34:44Z ertes: it "extends" a promise by a surrounding expression
2017-04-13T15:35:39Z ertes: in particular for all x:  (lazy (delay x)) = (delay x)
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2017-04-13T15:36:01Z ertes: and for all f and x:  (lazy (f (delay x))) = (delay (f x))
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2017-04-13T15:39:34Z TheLemonMan: uh, you probably mean srfi-45
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2017-04-13T15:52:04Z ertes: oh, sorry, off by one =)
2017-04-13T15:52:17Z ertes: that explains the weird error i was getting, haha
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2017-04-13T16:27:43Z evilbinary: hi
2017-04-13T16:27:53Z evilbinary: https://github.com/evilbinary/scheme-lib
2017-04-13T16:28:00Z evilbinary: a game?
2017-04-13T16:28:20Z evilbinary: nobody?
2017-04-13T16:28:27Z evilbinary: =.=
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2017-04-13T16:31:16Z evilbinary: [-_-]
2017-04-13T16:31:30Z evilbinary: time to sleep zzz~~
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2017-04-13T16:32:27Z wasamasa: looks suspuciously like dear imgui
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2017-04-13T16:32:38Z evilbinary: haha
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2017-04-13T16:35:46Z evilbinary: yeah,imgui lib here.
2017-04-13T16:36:00Z evilbinary: wrap a imgui binding
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2017-04-13T16:47:13Z evilbinary: Emacs sucks
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2017-04-13T17:47:52Z akkad: if emacs sucked it'd be worth something
2017-04-13T17:49:45Z TheLemonMan: This reminds me of an old joke "The only Microsoft product that doesn't suck - Microsoft Vacuum Cleaner"
2017-04-13T17:54:23Z wasamasa: I suspect they're quoting my github bio
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2017-04-13T22:10:49Z ski: ertes : `lazy' takes an expression that will produce a promise when evaluated, and produces a promise value without evaluating that expression. when the promise is forced, it will evaluate the expression, and then continue by forcing the promise that results
2017-04-13T22:11:22Z ski: ertes : `for all x:  (lazy (delay x)) = (delay x)' is right. `for all f and x:  (lazy (f (delay x))) = (delay (f x))' isn't (type error)
2017-04-13T22:13:37Z ski: you should read the Wadler paper referenced at the end, if you haven't already
2017-04-13T22:14:53Z ski: "How to add laziness to a strict language, without even being odd" by Philip Wadler,Walid Taha,David McQueen in 1998-09 at <http://homepages.inf.ed.ac.uk/wadler/topics/language-design.html>
2017-04-13T22:18:36Z ski: they have a `fun lazy' construction there, corresponding to wrapping the whole body (and pattern-matching to the correct definition equation) with an SRFI-45 `lazy'
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2017-04-13T22:21:13Z ertes: ski: ah, yeah…  but it does work as expected
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2017-04-13T22:22:07Z ski: in one case `f' gets a value. in the other it gets a promise that will result in that value
2017-04-13T22:23:27Z ski: a "map" over promises would be `(lambda (f p) (delay (f (force p))))'
2017-04-13T22:23:38Z ertes: your description in prose is exactly how i understood it
2017-04-13T22:23:51Z ertes: the "map" was more as a metaphor
2017-04-13T22:24:15Z ertes: it's perhaps more a kind of lifting than a kind of mapping
2017-04-13T22:27:30Z ski: .. iirc, in formulations of monads in strict languages, i've sometimes seen an operation that takes an action-thunk and produces an action
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2017-04-14T11:52:22Z axion: Mere hours before the annual Lisp Game Jam begins. Register now if you plan on participating. https://itch.io/jam/lisp-game-jam-2017-easy-mode
2017-04-14T11:52:55Z ecraven: I wish
2017-04-14T11:52:56Z ecraven: ;-/
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2017-04-14T15:19:27Z justinethier: A new release of Cyclone Scheme is available if anyone is interested. Lots of useful features and incremental improvements: http://justinethier.github.io/cyclone//2017/04/14/Released-Cyclone-Scheme-0.5.html
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2017-04-14T23:43:04Z azathoth99: why is python not scheme used at MIT?
2017-04-14T23:43:11Z azathoth99: oracle is cancer
2017-04-14T23:43:16Z azathoth99: Trump 2020
2017-04-14T23:43:19Z azathoth99: capitalism
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2017-04-14T23:45:25Z akkad thought his role as a Turkish Customs Agent ended with moving from #lisp to #scheme
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2017-04-14T23:52:48Z qu1j0t3: so this new bot is designed to cancel out allah-bot?
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2017-04-15T06:14:28Z brendyn: azathoth99: They switched from scheme I think
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2017-04-15T06:22:13Z Riastradh: brendyn: FYI, azathoth99 is a notorious troll who has been bothering #scheme for over a decade.
2017-04-15T06:23:11Z brendyn: Riastradh: Oh, did they give up on banning him?
2017-04-15T06:23:52Z Riastradh: I gave up about a decade ago.
2017-04-15T06:24:42Z brendyn: Quite impressive to do something like that for a whole decade though
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2017-04-15T07:52:38Z renopt: that's true dedication, conviction, passion
2017-04-15T07:54:05Z wasamasa: sheesh
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2017-04-15T08:44:04Z DKordic ROFL
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2017-04-15T10:45:30Z taylan: maybe it's a bot written in Common Lisp?
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2017-04-15T13:22:53Z X-Scale: Are there illustrative examples of how scheme can be used to describe and simulate low level hardware (on the bit, rtl, route and place, transistor level) ?
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2017-04-15T14:14:00Z qu1j0t3: Riastradh: yeah, I know it's gavino, I was just making a bad joke :)
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2017-04-15T14:16:35Z wasamasa: X-Scale: I'm not sure why you'd need a scheme-specific example of it
2017-04-15T14:16:58Z wasamasa: X-Scale: but I've found https://github.com/extrasharp/shdl the other day
2017-04-15T14:35:57Z X-Scale: wasamasa: thanks
2017-04-15T14:36:15Z wasamasa: the link suggests it has been lifted from SICP
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2017-04-16T18:16:01Z akkad: (define myj (with-output-to-string (system "gzcat ~/test.json.gz"))); only getting the 0. how can you force system to change current-output-port for capture?
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2017-04-16T18:32:34Z xyh: why 's' is written as 'f' in a 1847 english book ?
2017-04-16T18:32:38Z xyh: http://img.vim-cn.com/98/a7c44a4203bc834ef7b13514727f7eb16de276.png
2017-04-16T18:33:04Z xyh: and that is for only some 's' but not all 's'
2017-04-16T18:34:27Z wasamasa: rudybot: I didn't know typography is scheme-related
2017-04-16T18:34:36Z rudybot: wasamasa: is there a typography related channel?
2017-04-16T18:34:38Z qu1j0t3: xyh: not sure why you're asking in here. but funnily enough this came up elsewhere not long ago. glyphs evolve. all modern printed type evolved from handwriting and the further back you go, you see some unfamiliar affectations that have fallen by the wayside.
2017-04-16T18:35:06Z qu1j0t3: (handwriting and stonecutting, but in this case, handwriting)
2017-04-16T18:35:54Z qu1j0t3: xyh: You can also see some archaic ligatures here (ct, st)
2017-04-16T18:38:40Z xyh: thx
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2017-04-16T20:50:44Z pjb: #\ſ #\LATIN_SMALL_LETTER_LONG_S
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2017-04-16T21:04:59Z teurastaja: any hardware hackers around here?
2017-04-16T21:05:56Z qu1j0t3: teurastaja: only wannabe.
2017-04-16T21:06:49Z teurastaja: ever uploaded scheme on an mcu?
2017-04-16T21:07:08Z qu1j0t3: no. :(
2017-04-16T21:07:51Z teurastaja: you know how to program in assembly?
2017-04-16T21:09:09Z qu1j0t3: yes
2017-04-16T21:09:44Z teurastaja: i have 2 bits on the PSW (program status flags) so it make 4 possibilities to record a datatype or something else for a scheme compiler
2017-04-16T21:09:59Z teurastaja: how would you make as small a scheme as possible?
2017-04-16T21:11:40Z qu1j0t3: does it really help you type values?
2017-04-16T21:12:11Z teurastaja: well... i have 2 available user-defined bits. why wouldnt i use them?
2017-04-16T21:12:21Z qu1j0t3: in the PSW? don't you need to associate those with a reference?
2017-04-16T21:12:30Z qu1j0t3: there's only 1 PSW, what am i missing?
2017-04-16T21:13:56Z teurastaja: yes but there are 2 free bits i can use
2017-04-16T21:14:36Z qu1j0t3: but in the PSW. so not associated with any value or reference?
2017-04-16T21:14:39Z teurastaja: id like to see an example of extremely compact scheme implementation (in size). readable
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2017-04-16T21:15:43Z qu1j0t3: i suppose some glue code could set those bits by copying them from somewhere related to a value, but this doesn't seem very useful
2017-04-16T21:16:10Z wasamasa: you'd be better off implementing a forth :P
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2017-04-16T21:18:30Z teurastaja: forth is dead
2017-04-16T21:19:00Z wasamasa: ITYM extremely compact
2017-04-16T21:19:21Z teurastaja: how about a closure implementation using as few bits as possible
2017-04-16T21:19:23Z teurastaja: ?
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2017-04-16T21:34:26Z tunixman: hey hey
2017-04-16T21:38:55Z qu1j0t3: teurastaja: re your PSW bits, i think you might find a use for them, if any, while in the final stages of an implementation but i can't see them being fundamental to a design.
2017-04-16T21:39:07Z qu1j0t3: i guess marc feeley's schemes might be ones to look at for MCU
2017-04-16T21:40:13Z qu1j0t3: hm.. his small schemes don't seem to be on his github... https://github.com/feeley?tab=repositories
2017-04-16T21:40:37Z qu1j0t3: papers should be here http://www-labs.iro.umontreal.ca/~feeley/
2017-04-16T21:41:27Z teurastaja: at least this guy speaks my language
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2017-04-16T21:43:25Z teurastaja: can SKI calculus define lambda calculus? i know the other way around is possible but...?
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2017-04-16T22:03:42Z dTal: teurastaja: forth is too simple to be "dead"
2017-04-16T22:03:52Z dTal: it's more a state of mind than a singular project
2017-04-16T22:04:03Z dTal: same goes for lisp really
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2017-04-16T22:09:36Z teurastaja: the learning resources for forth ive seen are from the 1970s
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2017-04-17T00:19:35Z noethics: i don't know if lisp can be considered simple
2017-04-17T00:19:53Z noethics: the syntax is simple i guess at face value
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2017-04-17T00:34:45Z aeth: There are two kinds of simple.
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2017-04-17T00:38:36Z aeth: Is it more important for the interface to be simple (Lisps) or the implementation to be simple (Unix and C)? This is basically Worse is Better.
2017-04-17T00:39:08Z aeth: https://www.dreamsongs.com/WorseIsBetter.html
2017-04-17T00:39:59Z aeth: Scheme is a very simple language, but it has first class continuations, garbage collection, Unicode, hygienic macros, etc. It is not a trivial language.
2017-04-17T00:44:51Z aeth: Interstingly, 2.2.4 ("Totally Inappropriate Data Structures") still applies to quite a lot of Lisp/Scheme code in the wild today imo. https://www.dreamsongs.com/WIB.html
2017-04-17T00:47:26Z aeth: On the other hand, the modern programmer now tends to use modern languages where all available data structures are totally inappropriate, so maybe it's a dated criticism. ;-)
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2017-04-17T02:53:46Z mgb: i needed a stack and thought to use multiple values to return the popped item and the resulting stack. But it's awkward to use values. Is there a better way?
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2017-04-17T03:22:07Z X-Scale: In MIT/GNU Scheme if I evalute (peek-char) on the *scheme* buffer it gives me the following error: ";The object #f is not applicable."
2017-04-17T03:22:14Z X-Scale: Any idea how to solve this ?
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2017-04-17T03:25:34Z X-Scale: (char-ready?) gives ";Value: #t" though
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2017-04-17T03:38:52Z Riastradh: X-Scale: Implement peek-char for interface-port-type in edwin/intmod.scm...
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2017-04-17T03:51:25Z X-Scale: Riastradh: Thanks. I'll try to do that.
2017-04-17T03:51:47Z X-Scale: I guess the error I get with (read-char) is related: ";READ-CHAR not supported on this port: #[i/o-port 11]"
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2017-04-17T20:42:00Z teurastaja: i havent got my answer yesterday: cant one implement lambda calculus FROM ski calculus?
2017-04-17T20:42:52Z turbofail: what do you mean by "implement"?
2017-04-17T20:43:04Z teurastaja: define
2017-04-17T20:43:48Z teurastaja: say i define SKI, can i define abstraction, concretization and name binding from it?
2017-04-17T20:44:16Z turbofail: you could write an interpreter for the lambda calculus in it
2017-04-17T20:45:04Z teurastaja: just from SKI calculus, without having previously defined lambda calculus?
2017-04-17T20:45:07Z turbofail: or you could write a compiler in whatever that could translate lambda calculus expressions into SKI terms
2017-04-17T20:45:33Z teurastaja: actually i want the opposite: SKI -> lambda
2017-04-17T20:45:41Z teurastaja: not lambda -> SKI
2017-04-17T20:47:29Z turbofail: but SKI -> lambda is easy
2017-04-17T20:48:26Z teurastaja: how?
2017-04-17T20:48:38Z turbofail: I -> λx : x
2017-04-17T20:48:39Z turbofail: etc.
2017-04-17T20:48:50Z teurastaja: no...
2017-04-17T20:48:58Z teurastaja: the other way around
2017-04-17T20:49:11Z turbofail: well then that would be lambda -> SKI
2017-04-17T20:49:16Z turbofail: lol
2017-04-17T20:49:36Z teurastaja: how?
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2017-04-17T20:49:48Z turbofail: you want to take an arbitrary lambda expression and turn it into a mess of SKSKSKSSI?
2017-04-17T20:50:03Z turbofail: hence that would be converting lambda -> SKI
2017-04-17T20:50:46Z teurastaja: no! i want to DEFINE lambda calculus
2017-04-17T20:51:05Z turbofail: that IS defining the lambda calculus
2017-04-17T20:51:30Z turbofail: in the SKI calculus
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2017-04-17T20:52:28Z teurastaja: starting from C, how would you, *simply*, define lambda calculus?
2017-04-17T20:52:49Z turbofail: i'd write something that converts lambda expressions into a C program
2017-04-17T20:53:02Z teurastaja: ive seen something about de brujin notation but understand nothing besides the encoding
2017-04-17T20:53:04Z turbofail: or an interpreter, either way
2017-04-17T20:53:37Z teurastaja: any easy to understand example? ive only seen big projects on github
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2017-04-17T20:54:50Z turbofail: hm.  dunno if i've ever seen one in C
2017-04-17T20:55:02Z turbofail: it's not difficult to write though if you don't care about garbage collection
2017-04-17T20:55:15Z turbofail: which you wouldn't for a little lambda calculus toy
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2017-04-17T21:20:20Z pjb: turbofail: it wouldn't be simple, because you'd have to implement closures in C, since they don't already exist.
2017-04-17T21:20:40Z turbofail: it's not that complicated either
2017-04-17T21:20:51Z pjb: Indeed.
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2017-04-17T21:21:23Z pjb: But this means you have to go metalinguistic, you couldn't do it with a few C macros.
2017-04-17T21:21:36Z turbofail: well i was picturing an interpeter
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2017-04-17T21:21:48Z pjb: Then yes.
2017-04-17T21:22:36Z dTal is messing with BiwaScheme again
2017-04-17T21:23:46Z dTal: Because I'm a masochist
2017-04-17T21:23:47Z dTal: this time I have (define dont-do-the-thing (print "Hello World")) in my source file, with no other references to dont-do-the-thing. "Hello World" gets printed.
2017-04-17T21:26:16Z dTal: Commenting out just that line no longer prints "Hello World", so it's not a caching thing and there's no other place in the program for that.
2017-04-17T21:27:31Z dTal: ....never mind. should be (define (dont-do-the-thing) (print "Hello World")) of course.
2017-04-17T21:28:40Z dTal: Hooray.
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2017-04-18T00:43:47Z chatter29: hey guys
2017-04-18T00:43:50Z chatter29: allah is doing
2017-04-18T00:43:58Z chatter29: sun is not doing allah is doing
2017-04-18T00:44:00Z chatter29: to accept Islam say that i bear witness that there is no deity worthy of worship except Allah and Muhammad peace be upon him is his slave and messenger
2017-04-18T00:44:05Z ChanServ has set mode +o Riastradh
2017-04-18T00:44:14Z Riastradh has set mode +q chatter29!*@*
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2017-04-18T05:17:18Z akkad: The simple fact they did not translate Allah to God, is always funny.
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2017-04-18T05:42:48Z sssilver: hey guys, what's the point of Scheme in a world that already has Haskell?
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2017-04-18T05:44:08Z ecraven: sssilver: you might need to read up on what Scheme and Haskell actually are, they aren't even close to similar ;)
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2017-04-18T05:45:56Z sssilver: ecraven so far it seems that wherever they differ, it's in favor of Haskell. I'm reading this book (to improve myself as a programmer), and I keep constantly bumping into the thought of "this would have been better in Haskell"
2017-04-18T05:46:22Z ecraven: well, it's fine to feel that way ;) just use haskell then!
2017-04-18T05:47:51Z sssilver: I'm reading a book called Structure and Interpretation of Computer Programs, but I'm a "career programmer" (is that a thing?) that's doing this just for leisure (rather, a colleague recommended it as a must-read). I know most people who do this are university students.
2017-04-18T05:48:31Z sssilver: I do know Haskell fairly well, I have a Haskell web service in production actually
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2017-04-18T06:05:16Z wasamasa: sssilver: if I haven't known you from #emacs, I'd have assumed you're the SICP bait troll
2017-04-18T06:06:17Z aeth: sssilver: If you know a language very well, of course you know how things work better in that language than others.
2017-04-18T06:06:47Z sssilver: aeth I mean, types
2017-04-18T06:07:19Z aeth: sssilver: If you really want types, then use http://docs.racket-lang.org/ts-guide/index.html
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2017-04-18T14:03:26Z qu1j0t3: still only a pale imitation tho. and there's still a lot of useful haskell syntax missing
2017-04-18T14:04:11Z qu1j0t3: quite often, given an A and B, it's not possible to turn A into B incrementally :)
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2017-04-18T14:12:31Z evil`: hi
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2017-04-19T01:12:29Z dTal: What's the name of the data structure like an a-list, except it's a cons of a list of all the keys and a list of all the values?
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2017-04-19T01:13:09Z dTal: also, what's a good way to represent a "location" in an s-expression tree, such as you might use for a cursor position in an editor?
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2017-04-19T01:43:09Z akkad: a pair?
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2017-04-19T02:42:25Z akkad: is there a cleaner pattern than this? (cdr (assoc 'userName (cdr (assoc 'sessionIssuer (cdr (assoc 'sessionContext userIdentity)))))) in CL it was a plist and I could reduce + getf
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2017-04-19T05:31:26Z ecraven: akkad: just write a function that does this, so you can do (access userIdentity 'userName 'sectionIssuer 'sessionContext) (or whatever other syntax you prefer)
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2017-04-19T05:34:59Z akkad: true
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2017-04-19T05:36:06Z ecraven: also, lenses ;)
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2017-04-19T10:55:15Z druidofluhn: Does anybody have experience compiling Chicken R7Rs files?
2017-04-19T10:55:31Z druidofluhn: No solution from #chicken yet
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2017-04-19T12:07:44Z jonaslund: Your question doesn't sound like a question for a solution but rather a general call for something
2017-04-19T12:08:09Z jonaslund: There's an old IRC adage,  "Don't ask to ask, just ask"
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2017-04-19T17:02:28Z pflanze: Hi. Any tips on literature or code to optimize (Scheme) programs with regards to branches based on predicates that (partially) overlap?
2017-04-19T17:03:50Z pflanze: Like, (define (foo? x) (and (string? x) (string=? x "foo")))  (if (string? x) (if (foo? x) .. )) -> changed to (if (string? x) (if (string=? x "foo") ...))
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2017-04-19T17:04:17Z pflanze: Maybe I'm imagining more issues than there are, but would just be interested to learn about someone who has done that already.
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2017-04-19T17:14:14Z qu1j0t3: pattern matching? or move the tests to compile time w/ typed racket?
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2017-04-19T19:21:44Z akkad: Don't ask for a question, instead state a contrary fact, and await being corrected.
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2017-04-19T19:26:31Z aeth: akkad: There's no efficient way to implement a prime sieve in Scheme.
2017-04-19T19:26:45Z aeth awaits an interesting prime sieve implementation.
2017-04-19T19:27:04Z akkad: yeah #lisp is probably more apropos that statement
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2017-04-19T19:28:08Z aeth: All you need is a Scheme with a bit array...
2017-04-19T19:28:20Z aeth: You don't even need that, but you'll probably run out of memory without it
2017-04-19T19:30:03Z aeth: Interestingly, Scheme only requires byte vectors, not bit vectors, and CL only requires bit vectors, not byte vectors. (Most, if not all, CLs do have byte vectors and most Schemes probably add bit vectors.)
2017-04-19T19:30:30Z akkad: is r7rs really going to be bigger than clhs?
2017-04-19T19:30:35Z akkad: big
2017-04-19T19:31:54Z aeth: CL has a lot of de facto standards that aren't standards because the spec is so outdated. Things like unicode and bordeaux-threads, etc.
2017-04-19T19:32:25Z aeth: So it's not impossible.
2017-04-19T19:33:50Z jcowan: Bit vectors are straightforward to implement on top of byte vectors.
2017-04-19T19:34:05Z jcowan: I'm going to add them to the group of numeric vectors when I get to writing that SRFI
2017-04-19T19:34:27Z jcowan: (u1, u8, s8, u16, s16, u32, s32, u64, s64, f32, f64, c64, c128)
2017-04-19T19:34:36Z aeth: Interestingly, Racket bit vectors use #t and #f instead of 1 and 0, which probably makes more sense than CL's 1 and 0. https://docs.racket-lang.org/data/bit-vector.html?q=bit#(tech._bit._vector)
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2017-04-19T19:36:02Z aeth: jcowan: the gap there is obviously s1
2017-04-19T19:36:06Z aeth: /s
2017-04-19T19:36:30Z jcowan: Eh, 0/1 are more convenient values than 0/-1.
2017-04-19T19:36:32Z jcowan: I think.
2017-04-19T19:36:46Z jcowan: But if you have a case for s1, make it.
2017-04-19T19:37:27Z aeth: I would have to search all existing Lisp and Scheme code to see if anyone actually uses it.
2017-04-19T19:37:34Z aeth: It might have one use
2017-04-19T19:38:23Z aeth: jcowan: What is c? complex?
2017-04-19T19:38:38Z jcowan: yes
2017-04-19T19:38:46Z jcowan: specifically rectangular complex
2017-04-19T19:39:13Z jcowan: Languages that pun true/false on numbers sometimes use 0/1 like C, sometimes 0/-1 like Basic
2017-04-19T19:39:17Z jcowan: but we have #t/#f
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2017-04-19T19:41:37Z aeth: CL uses 0/1 in its bit vectors. So if you want to put a boolean in an array you suddenly use (= 1 foo) or (zerop foo) instead of foo or (not foo)
2017-04-19T19:41:41Z aeth: It's very mildly annoying.
2017-04-19T19:47:00Z Riastradh: 0/-1 is pretty handy.
2017-04-19T19:47:06Z Riastradh: 1 has a lotta zero bits in it.
2017-04-19T19:47:09Z Riastradh: An infinite number, really.
2017-04-19T19:47:15Z Riastradh: -1 is *all* bits one!
2017-04-19T19:48:31Z Riastradh: More seriously, you can use 0 and -1 as masks for vectorized conditionals.
2017-04-19T19:49:11Z Riastradh: If m is 0 or -1, then (m & x) | (~m & y) gives either x or y without branches.
2017-04-19T19:49:52Z jcowan: Right
2017-04-19T19:50:08Z jcowan: APL languages exploit their 0/1 convention so that max is or, min is and
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2017-04-20T08:13:43Z X-Scale: <jcowan> (u1, u8, s8, u16, s16, u32, s32, u64, s64, f32, f64, c64, c128) <- I wonder why u2 and u4 are left out
2017-04-20T08:16:25Z brendyn gets a headache wondering what these numbers mean
2017-04-20T08:16:42Z ecraven: looks like homogenous vector types
2017-04-20T08:16:56Z ecraven: but I haven't seen u2 or u4 before
2017-04-20T08:17:38Z wasamasa: u2 would be a copyright violation
2017-04-20T08:18:31Z brendyn: That's fine in Manhattan
2017-04-20T08:18:50Z wasamasa: and the reason why they're left out is because people use bits and bytes in practice, not nibbles, nybbles, whatever
2017-04-20T08:20:55Z ecraven: is c64 meant to be a complex with two 32-bit parts?
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2017-04-20T08:44:44Z wingo: guile calls a complex with two 32-bit parts a c32
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2017-04-20T17:04:47Z ecraven: has anyone measured how chibi compares to lua, performance-wise?
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2017-04-20T17:11:02Z akkad: hah
2017-04-20T17:11:03Z edw: To a first order approximation, I would guess Lua destroys Chibi. (Chibi ia currently my go-to Scheme.)
2017-04-20T17:11:45Z ecraven: :-/
2017-04-20T17:12:03Z akkad: yeah..
2017-04-20T17:12:08Z akkad: memory usage alone
2017-04-20T17:13:52Z edw: The charm of Chibi to my mind is that it makes it easy to realize the C-Scheme metal-mind yin-yang.
2017-04-20T17:14:37Z edw: And so it's the C that provides the critical (memory, cpu, whathaveyou) performance when you need it.
2017-04-20T17:14:38Z akkad: my xp only comes from seeing chibi-snow eat a lot of ram for minimal work
2017-04-20T17:14:59Z akkad: and lua xp was always tiny foot print and very fast. on par with C
2017-04-20T17:15:19Z edw: The Redis dude did not pick Lua for no reason.
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2017-04-20T17:17:21Z ecraven: is that different to lua?
2017-04-20T17:17:28Z ecraven: the lua C interface isn't that hard to use either
2017-04-20T17:18:06Z edw: ecraven: I'm a Scheme bigot. Performance and ease of FFI were two of the reasons whatsisname chose it for Redis.
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2017-04-20T17:20:09Z edw: If you want performance...Gambit? Something else? But Chibi is a very nice Scheme; jcowan introduced me to it.
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2017-04-20T17:33:55Z akkad: edw: how does chibi's packages compare to say eggs? I saw snow-chibi and that had some pkgs
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2017-04-20T17:38:03Z jcowan: hey ho
2017-04-20T17:38:25Z groovy2shoes: hey jcowan
2017-04-20T17:38:28Z ecraven: hey
2017-04-20T17:38:31Z groovy2shoes: what's up?
2017-04-20T17:40:26Z groovy2shoes: edw, akkad:  the Chibi build is pretty flexible, and it's possible to build configurations with smaller footprints
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2017-04-20T17:40:55Z groovy2shoes: that was my biggest complaint with Chibi some time ago, but Alex showed me the light
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2017-04-20T17:41:15Z jcowan: grinding through 3 impls of SRFI 143, fixnums
2017-04-20T17:41:18Z groovy2shoes: the default build gives you everything, iirc, but you can trim it down considerably
2017-04-20T17:41:22Z jcowan: (vanilla, Chicken, R6RS)
2017-04-20T17:41:30Z groovy2shoes: oh, fun
2017-04-20T17:41:30Z ecraven: groovy2shoes: does that make it faster, or just smaller?
2017-04-20T17:41:37Z jcowan: Mostly smaller
2017-04-20T17:41:53Z groovy2shoes: ecraven, I haven't timed it, tbh, but it can be made considerably smaller... like, TinyScheme levels of smallness
2017-04-20T17:41:59Z jcowan: maybe a touch faster if you remove certain numeric types because you need to do fewer polymorphism tests
2017-04-20T17:42:18Z jcowan: Chibi is meant to displace TS by being much more complete and much faster
2017-04-20T17:42:26Z ecraven: I'd be interested in using it as a lua replacement, but if it is much slower, that's hard to justify :-/
2017-04-20T17:42:34Z groovy2shoes: yeah, I'm sure it's a tad faster, but probably not significantly, tbh... but again, I haven't timed it
2017-04-20T17:42:35Z ecraven: (not luajit, just plain lua)
2017-04-20T17:42:59Z ecraven: but I guess the only way to measure that is to implement something non-trivial in chibi *and* lua and compare
2017-04-20T17:43:20Z groovy2shoes: even plain Lua sets a pretty high bar for performance, tbh
2017-04-20T17:43:32Z ecraven: yea :-/
2017-04-20T17:43:53Z groovy2shoes: consider, though, that Chibi has a bigger library and is more featureful than Lua out of the box
2017-04-20T17:44:17Z groovy2shoes: (I don't say this to demean Lua, as I count Lua among my favorites, really)
2017-04-20T17:44:29Z ecraven: well, if you have to render a game ui within 16 ms, the main thing is being fast enough, not featureful :-/
2017-04-20T17:44:38Z groovy2shoes: true
2017-04-20T17:44:39Z ecraven: I really don't like the syntax decisions lua has made
2017-04-20T17:44:59Z jcowan: One of foof's goals is to write a Lua mode for Chibi
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2017-04-20T17:45:21Z jcowan: so he at least thinks Chibi beats (or will beat) Lua's performance
2017-04-20T17:45:29Z groovy2shoes: but also if you're going to implement some of that Chibi functionality in Lua, it *may* wind up being slower
2017-04-20T17:45:50Z groovy2shoes: but yeah, best thing would be to measure and compare
2017-04-20T17:46:18Z jcowan: Implementing Scheme on top of Blub usually means throwing away much of Blub, whereas implementing Blub on Scheme is usually no problem, just a SMOP
2017-04-20T17:46:19Z groovy2shoes: some representative test case(s) for your intended usage
2017-04-20T17:46:32Z groovy2shoes: indeed, jcowan
2017-04-20T17:47:06Z jcowan: "Of course the Fortran compiler can compile Cobol too!  It's just a SMOP!"
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2017-04-20T18:14:50Z akkad: chibi's rank on the scheme benchmarks don't seem to suggest it is a performance first implementation
2017-04-20T18:15:31Z ecraven: akkad: well, that compares against compiled implementations, which are of course much faster
2017-04-20T18:15:45Z ecraven: but it doesn't seem slow in comparison to other interpreted schemes
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2017-04-20T18:16:34Z akkad: like racket?
2017-04-20T18:17:21Z groovy2shoes: racket is JIT compiled, under normal circumstances
2017-04-20T18:17:52Z akkad: gotcha
2017-04-20T18:18:38Z ecraven: racket is amazingly fast since the last version bump
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2017-04-20T18:25:41Z akkad: yeah 6.8 did something magical. ecraven have you see those benchmarks?
2017-04-20T18:25:42Z akkad: :P
2017-04-20T18:32:02Z gwatt: I think for a while racket didn't even show up on the benchmarks
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2017-04-20T18:32:39Z groovy2shoes: there was a research project I saw on HN not too long ago, where the PyPy folks were involved in devising a new JIT method for Scheme
2017-04-20T18:32:49Z groovy2shoes: wonder if that might not be it
2017-04-20T18:33:20Z gwatt: why would the pypy folks be working on jit for scheme? (asking seriously)
2017-04-20T18:33:41Z groovy2shoes: that, that doesn't seem to be it
2017-04-20T18:33:53Z groovy2shoes: looks like the bytecode optimizer saw some improvements in 6.8
2017-04-20T18:36:16Z groovy2shoes: gwatt, http://www.ccs.neu.edu/home/samth/pycket-draft.pdf
2017-04-20T18:36:34Z groovy2shoes: looks like part of a university research project
2017-04-20T18:38:25Z gwatt: ah, of course it's samth!
2017-04-20T18:39:27Z groovy2shoes: who else?  :p
2017-04-20T18:40:27Z ecraven: how do I extract a c string from a sexp (which is a scheme string) in chibi?
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2017-04-20T18:42:33Z groovy2shoes: ecraven, char* sexp_string_data(sexp s) - the raw bytes of the string
2017-04-20T18:42:40Z ecraven: thanks!
2017-04-20T18:43:04Z groovy2shoes: just a heads up, those are utf8 strings
2017-04-20T18:43:18Z groovy2shoes: http://synthcode.com/scheme/chibi/#h4_StringHandling
2017-04-20T18:48:07Z ecraven: groovy2shoes: even better!
2017-04-20T18:52:15Z groovy2shoes: jcowan, how good is your command of Old English?
2017-04-20T18:52:40Z ecraven: hwaet!
2017-04-20T18:52:55Z jcowan: I would say "minimal" except that most people's command of it is zero.
2017-04-20T18:53:24Z jcowan: I know how to look up things, and I can decode grammatical endings, but I certainly couldn't compose new grammatical OE texts
2017-04-20T18:53:52Z groovy2shoes: I've translated a prayer from Old Norse, looking for someone who might check it for errors
2017-04-20T18:54:20Z jcowan: I could make a stab at it, but I doubt I would find anything
2017-04-20T18:54:35Z groovy2shoes: happen to know anyone who might?
2017-04-20T18:55:53Z jcowan shrugs apologetically
2017-04-20T18:56:13Z jcowan: "The average age of scholars in that field is deceased."
2017-04-20T19:06:53Z akkad: groovy2shoes: anyone in Iceland should be able to
2017-04-20T19:07:47Z groovy2shoes: akkad, not sure any arbitrary person in Iceland would know Old English that well :p
2017-04-20T19:08:37Z akkad: oh to old english
2017-04-20T19:08:39Z groovy2shoes: jcowan, I'll e-mail it to you a little later, if that's okay...  I'll have to type it up, and I've gotta go pick up the girl from school
2017-04-20T19:08:40Z ecraven: groovy2shoes: is that translation public?
2017-04-20T19:08:53Z groovy2shoes: ecraven, it can be if you're interested
2017-04-20T19:09:07Z akkad: old britton and old norse were mutually intelligible no?
2017-04-20T19:09:20Z ecraven: groovy2shoes: I am ;)
2017-04-20T19:09:23Z groovy2shoes: akkad, no
2017-04-20T19:09:30Z ecraven: it's been a long time since I studied OE
2017-04-20T19:09:32Z ecraven: forgot most of it
2017-04-20T19:09:33Z groovy2shoes: ecraven, alrighty, I'll ping you when I've got it up
2017-04-20T19:09:36Z ecraven: thank you!
2017-04-20T19:09:52Z jcowan: groovy2shoes: Sure
2017-04-20T19:10:00Z groovy2shoes: thanks y'all :)
2017-04-20T19:11:37Z akkad: must have been old-saxon
2017-04-20T19:11:39Z akkad: https://classesv2.yale.edu/access/content/user/haw6/Vikings/voyagers.html
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2017-04-20T20:38:22Z civodul: what would be a portable way to compare two syntax objects?
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2017-04-20T20:55:41Z gwatt: civodul: if you don't care about the differences between free/bound identifiers you can use syntax->datum
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2017-04-20T20:56:58Z gwatt: (assuming that's still in r7rs)
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2017-04-20T21:07:21Z civodul: gwatt: i do care, and it's not just identifiers
2017-04-20T21:07:26Z civodul: tricky!
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2017-04-20T21:45:18Z jcowan: gwatt: There is no syntax-case in r7rs-small, only syntax-rules
2017-04-20T21:45:34Z jcowan: what we will have in r7rs-large is up to the voters
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2017-04-20T21:47:39Z gwatt: jcowan: yep. I like syntax-case, but I'm not familiar with the alternatives
2017-04-20T21:48:14Z jcowan: Syntactic closures and explicit renaming, basically.  The latter incorporates the former.
2017-04-20T21:48:47Z gwatt: I just haven't used either of those.
2017-04-20T21:48:48Z jcowan: I'm not a big fan of *any* macro system other than syntax rules, although I find the higher-level SRFI 148 interesting.
2017-04-20T21:50:13Z gwatt: that looks like a common lisp impl of syntax-rules
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2017-04-20T21:52:02Z Riastradh: What about SYNTAX-ATTACKS?
2017-04-20T21:52:30Z Riastradh: Al* Petrofsky proposed it on the mailing list to one of my wacky syntax SRFIs, if I recall correctly.
2017-04-20T21:53:21Z gwatt: link?
2017-04-20T21:53:34Z Riastradh: I don't remember, go dig through my memory of a decade ago yourself!
2017-04-20T21:53:45Z gwatt: k, I'll get right on that
2017-04-20T21:54:03Z Riastradh: Hmm.  srfi.schemers.org is coming up blank for me.
2017-04-20T21:54:40Z gwatt: http://compgroups.net/comp.lang.scheme/syntax-attacks/1182731
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2017-04-20T22:22:13Z Riastradh: (For the record, I doubt there's any actual interesting content in that conversation, except maybe from the Al* himself.)
2017-04-20T22:23:51Z jcowan: Riastradh: srfi.schemers.org works for me
2017-04-20T22:24:33Z Riastradh: There's something very weird going on.  Firefox isn't getting an answer back or reporting any kind of error.
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2017-04-21T00:14:45Z rain1: is there any way to flatten s-expression trees down into an array in order to process them faster
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2017-04-21T00:25:00Z pjb: rain1: there are algorithms.
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2017-04-21T00:30:58Z qu1j0t3: phew. Q/A concluded
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2017-04-21T05:45:43Z ecraven: how would I pass a C pointer opaquely into chibi (to be passed back later to the C layer)?
2017-04-21T05:45:53Z ecraven: I'd prefer not to cast to a bignum
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2017-04-21T08:38:56Z ecraven: hm.. a very simple test shows that chibi is about 3 times slower than lua :-/
2017-04-21T08:39:09Z ecraven: lua 5.2 that is
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2017-04-21T08:42:23Z ecraven: 3-5 times
2017-04-21T08:49:01Z ecraven: ok, not using eval reduces that to chibi takes 2 times the time lua takes
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2017-04-21T08:49:16Z wasamasa: eval is a bit hard to implement efficiently :D
2017-04-21T08:49:48Z ecraven: yea, that was my fault
2017-04-21T08:49:52Z ecraven: still a factor of 2 remaining
2017-04-21T08:51:25Z wasamasa: I wonder whether immutable strings would help
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2017-04-21T08:52:27Z ecraven: I'm just using the default libchibi-scheme that comes with arch linx
2017-04-21T08:52:40Z ecraven: but I don't do many string operations, so this shouldn't be the problem
2017-04-21T08:53:04Z ecraven: I just call into scheme, which calls out into C for some imgui functions
2017-04-21T08:53:05Z wasamasa: I just recall a newish SRFI on the topic, mentioning speed improvements as a motivation
2017-04-21T08:53:51Z wasamasa: as lua's strings are immutable, the runtime can safely do optimizations based on the fact, whereas with scheme these would be of speculative nature
2017-04-21T08:59:01Z ecraven: however, chibi is faster at doing nothing than lua :P
2017-04-21T09:20:57Z ecraven: hm.. the culprit seems to be number->string
2017-04-21T09:25:43Z ecraven: or even string-append *and* number->string
2017-04-21T09:25:58Z ecraven: so wasamasa, seems you were right after all
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2017-04-21T13:54:33Z notforsure: I saw someone wrote a interpreter, it just has 7 lines, there's something I don't understand https://gist.github.com/anonymous/947f11d69e7b5e684b6daf13c232e3f0
2017-04-21T13:55:00Z notforsure: (eval '((lambda (x) x) y) '((y 2))) don't return 2
2017-04-21T13:55:18Z notforsure: or my (eval ...) style is wrong?
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2017-04-21T13:58:28Z jcowan: Well, it would help if it wasn't λ in the code and 'lambda' in the example.
2017-04-21T13:59:27Z notforsure: jcowan: yes, I replace it, and still not work
2017-04-21T13:59:28Z ski: shouldn't `cddr' there be `caddr' ?
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2017-04-21T14:00:34Z gwatt: yeh
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2017-04-21T14:01:17Z ski: oh, and `cadr' in `apply' should be `caadr'
2017-04-21T14:01:33Z ski: at least judging from the format `(lambda (x) x)'
2017-04-21T14:01:39Z notforsure: replace cddr (car (cddr (car f)))
2017-04-21T14:01:58Z ski: if you used `(lambda x . x)', it'd be another thing .. perhaps the article did this ?
2017-04-21T14:02:08Z notforsure: and (list (car (cadr ...)))
2017-04-21T14:02:24Z ski: notforsure : right
2017-04-21T14:02:54Z notforsure: ski: it's from http://matt.might.net/articles/implementing-a-programming-language/
2017-04-21T14:03:17Z ski:   Anonymous functions are written with a "lambda-dot" notation, so that:
2017-04-21T14:03:25Z notforsure: ski: it seems he uses dot pair not proper list, I'm not sure
2017-04-21T14:03:27Z ski:     (λ _v_ . _e_)
2017-04-21T14:03:43Z ski: so it seems they're using a different format for abstractions, right
2017-04-21T14:03:57Z ski: which explains the discrepancy in `apply'
2017-04-21T14:04:53Z ski finds this use of a dotted list, to look like a traditional lambda, a bit amusing
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2017-04-21T14:05:19Z ski: (also, the formatting in `eval' is weird)
2017-04-21T14:06:09Z notforsure: ski: so he use them like (lambda (x . body)) not normal (lambda (x) body)?
2017-04-21T14:07:15Z ski: no, `(lambda x . body)', rather
2017-04-21T14:07:32Z notforsure: aha, new to me
2017-04-21T14:08:00Z ski: rudybot: eval (car '(working))
2017-04-21T14:08:01Z rudybot: ski: e.g this isnt returning the result but rather still the lambda : (eval (plist-get (car (auth-source-search :host '("riley"))) ':secret))
2017-04-21T14:08:08Z ski: ok, not working
2017-04-21T14:08:28Z ski: if you evaluate
2017-04-21T14:08:50Z ski:   (cons 'lambda (cons 'x 'x))
2017-04-21T14:09:08Z ski: then the result will be displayed in "dotted list" notation as
2017-04-21T14:09:11Z ski:   (lambda x . x)
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2017-04-21T14:10:46Z ski: (the "end tail" is not the empty list here, so this is an improper list. but if the body had been an application (or an abstraction whose eventual body is an application), then the "end tail" would have been the empty list, and this would be a proper list)
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2017-04-21T14:14:28Z notforsure: the improper list is really not easy to understand for me :-(
2017-04-21T14:14:58Z notforsure: (lambda x . x) is (lambda . (x . x)) ?
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2017-04-21T14:15:43Z ski: in this case it's just a pair whose first component is the symbol `lambda', and whose second component is a pair whose first component is the symbol describing the formal parameter identifier, and whose second component is the body expression of the abstraction
2017-04-21T14:15:50Z ski: notforsure : no, not at all
2017-04-21T14:16:29Z ski: or rather .. the printer will not print out something like the second
2017-04-21T14:17:17Z ski: hm, right. i spoke too soon. those two indeed does describe the same structure of pairs
2017-04-21T14:17:49Z ski: if you want to create an improper list of symbols
2017-04-21T14:17:54Z ski:   (a b c d . e)
2017-04-21T14:18:00Z ski: then you can create it by
2017-04-21T14:18:16Z ski:   (cons 'a (cons 'b (cons 'c (cons 'd 'e))))
2017-04-21T14:18:40Z ski: the proper list
2017-04-21T14:18:43Z ski:   (a b c d e)
2017-04-21T14:18:47Z ski: instead is made by
2017-04-21T14:18:58Z ski:   (cons 'a (cons 'b (cons 'c (cons 'd (cons 'e '())))))
2017-04-21T14:18:59Z notforsure: so (a b c d . e) is (a . (b . (c . (d . e)))) ?
2017-04-21T14:19:18Z ski: yes, but the printer abbreviates it as the former
2017-04-21T14:19:56Z notforsure: so (lambda x . x) is (lambda . (x . x))?
2017-04-21T14:20:30Z ski: (and i'm used to that, so i mistakenly thought the latter of those two was different)
2017-04-21T14:20:37Z ski: yes. sorry for the confusion
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2017-04-21T14:21:04Z notforsure: wow, new to me
2017-04-21T14:22:06Z notforsure: in this case, his 7 lines interpreter, what's the eval style?
2017-04-21T14:22:28Z ski: not sure what you mean by "eval style"
2017-04-21T14:22:50Z notforsure: like this (eval ((lambda (x) x) y) '((y 2)))
2017-04-21T14:23:01Z notforsure: (eval expr env)
2017-04-21T14:23:13Z ski: this is an environment-passing evaluator
2017-04-21T14:23:20Z ski: a call-by-value one
2017-04-21T14:24:05Z notforsure: yes, call-by-value, in his 7 lines interpreter, use his eval , like?
2017-04-21T14:24:22Z ski: one could imagine a substitution-based evaluator
2017-04-21T14:24:24Z ski: one could imagine using call-by-name intead of call-by-value
2017-04-21T14:24:26Z ski: &c.
2017-04-21T14:24:35Z notforsure: (also I like call-by-text more)
2017-04-21T14:24:47Z ski still doesn't understand the question
2017-04-21T14:25:02Z ski: (and i don't know what "call-by-text" would mean .. FEXPRs ?)
2017-04-21T14:25:10Z notforsure: ski: yes, fexpr
2017-04-21T14:25:19Z ski isn't fond of it
2017-04-21T14:25:20Z notforsure: the special form
2017-04-21T14:25:57Z notforsure: fexpr just like a function but don't auto eval its parameters
2017-04-21T14:26:23Z ski: yes. imho that's bad, at least for general usage
2017-04-21T14:28:56Z notforsure: ski: the 7 lines interpreter, because he uses improper list, if I'd like eval ((lambda (x) x) y) in his interpreter, how I should write the lambda list? like (eval '((lambda x . x) y) '((y 3) (z 4))) ?
2017-04-21T14:30:31Z ski: oh
2017-04-21T14:30:34Z ski: yes, like that
2017-04-21T14:30:56Z ski: assuming you use the definition of `apply' in the paste, without the suggested modifications here
2017-04-21T14:31:27Z ski: (well, using `λ' instead of `lambda')
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2017-04-21T14:41:02Z notforsure: ski: I tried (eval '((lambda x . x) y) '((y 3))) and still got error...
2017-04-21T14:41:28Z notforsure: my style is not right
2017-04-21T14:41:37Z notforsure: my syntax
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2017-04-21T15:12:37Z edw: I'm having some interesting problems in Chibi: when I put code in a module and import (chibi) from the module definition, I'm getting an undefined error for CADDR. Very odd. Chibi has (chibi), (scheme base), and maybe other choices for initial environments, and it's not clear to me which is the smartest base for all of my module development. Thoughts?
2017-04-21T15:17:14Z notforsure: edw: CADDR is not defined?
2017-04-21T15:17:22Z edw: Yeah, weird, right?
2017-04-21T15:17:41Z notforsure: yeah, it is, chibi use cons cell?
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2017-04-21T15:18:20Z notforsure: like I know, newlisp don't use cons cell so it doesn't have car cdr stuff
2017-04-21T15:18:57Z edw: I'm not quite sure what you're asking. CADDR was defined just fine when I was LOAD-ing the code, but somehow the environment when used within a module is different than being loaded from a REPL.
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2017-04-21T15:32:43Z edw: For future reference, importing (scheme cxr) does the trick.
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2017-04-21T15:35:04Z edw: CxxxR procedures are library procedures under R7RS.
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2017-04-22T03:02:17Z sophiag: does anyone here use petite chez with emacs? it should be mind-numbingly simple to configure with xscheme, but emacs is telling me it cannot find chez. i installed it via, nix, although guessing i won't get a ton of help there
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2017-04-22T03:08:54Z akkad: did you set the right name for it to find?
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2017-04-22T03:33:08Z jcowan_: sophiag: If you are using petite chez, you need to tell emacs to find petite, not chez.
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2017-04-22T04:18:50Z sophiag: jcowan: i'm telling it to find petite although the nix package is called chez, which i assume includes both versions. regardless, when i specify petite emacs tells me it can't find chez
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2017-04-22T04:19:52Z jcowan shrugs helplessly
2017-04-22T04:20:29Z Riastradh: sophiag: Where in your $PATH is it?  Is that directory in Emacs's exec-path?
2017-04-22T04:21:25Z sophiag: both are where nix installs them
2017-04-22T04:21:42Z sophiag: my guess is whatever it needs from chez may only be available inside a nix-shell
2017-04-22T04:22:13Z sophiag: in that case, i can fix it by specifying whatever those extras are in a default.nix inside whatever dir emacs lives in
2017-04-22T04:22:36Z sophiag: but as i just told someone in #emacs, it seems like this may be a better question for the nix folks
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2017-04-22T04:22:55Z Riastradh: sophiag: What is the exact symptom?
2017-04-22T04:23:19Z sophiag: scheme files launch saying "Scheme/Guile" and run-scheme returns "cannot find chez"
2017-04-22T04:23:31Z Riastradh: sophiag: Or, wait -- are you saying the directory they appear is not included in Emacs's exec-path?
2017-04-22T04:23:50Z sophiag: it's nixos...you don't handle thngs like that manually
2017-04-22T04:24:15Z Riastradh: That's a nice idea, but does Emacs subscribe to that idea?
2017-04-22T04:24:22Z Riastradh: If not, then of course it won't work.
2017-04-22T04:24:48Z sophiag: can you say what "subscribes to" means on a specific technical level?
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2017-04-22T04:25:01Z sophiag: because otherwise i can't understand what you mean
2017-04-22T04:25:09Z Riastradh: What is $PATH in your shell?  What is exec-path in Emacs?
2017-04-22T04:25:26Z sophiag: you don't seem to understand what i keep saying about nix
2017-04-22T04:26:06Z sophiag: generally, i've seen many great demos recently where everyone uses petite chez and gets a nice repl inside their buffer. but it seems like they're just using petite with xscheme
2017-04-22T04:26:31Z Riastradh: My assumption is that nix *sets* $PATH to point at some magic directory for whatever your user context is or something.
2017-04-22T04:26:46Z Riastradh: Is that wrong?  Does the concept of $PATH not even exist in nix?
2017-04-22T04:27:01Z Riastradh: (If so, it's a little more radical than I anticipated, and I'm surprised it manages to run any Unix software at all.)
2017-04-22T04:27:11Z sophiag: ....
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2017-04-22T04:27:34Z Riastradh: Well, someone obviously doesn't want help.
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2017-04-22T04:43:13Z jusss: the functions  which I should use to define a macro?
2017-04-22T04:44:13Z jusss: define-synatx-cases or define-syntax syntax-case, I don't know why need syntax-case in define-syntax style
2017-04-22T04:44:27Z jusss: like defmacro in cl, it's simple to use,
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2017-04-22T06:36:29Z jusss: the parameter of (syntax-rules () ...) what it's?
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2017-04-22T07:05:40Z jusss: what is syntax function?
2017-04-22T07:06:06Z jusss: (syntax ...) ? and (syntax-rules (x) ...) what x should be?
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2017-04-22T13:15:51Z mejja: Riastradh: Typo: http://git.savannah.gnu.org/cgit/mit-scheme.git/tree/src/runtime/ustring.scm#n209
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2017-04-22T14:28:09Z Riastradh: mejja: Fixed.
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2017-04-22T17:21:52Z ecraven: Riastradh: just to let you know, that problem with m4-dos in microcode/cmpauxmd (i386.m4) still persists, I cannot build git master on any of my machines without aborting and running ./m4-dos -P "WIN32,1" -P "WCC386R,1" < i386.m4 > i386-ntw.asm by hand
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2017-04-22T18:56:14Z jcowan: I am pushing for a change in the SRFI process to require SRFI implementations to come with tests, after having been bitten by a nasty spec bug found only after the SRFI was finalized.  We're going to issue a replacement SRFI.
2017-04-22T18:56:39Z wasamasa: let's do it the C way and require everyone to work around the bug
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2017-04-22T19:06:48Z jcowan: The trouble was that SRFI 33 (Olin) and SRFI 60 (SLIB) defined the function bitwise-merge basically the same way but with a different order of arguments, and nobody noticed.
2017-04-22T19:07:34Z jcowan: Unfortunately, in my comprehensive bitwise SRFI, I adopted the SRFI 33 definition, whereas both SLIB and R6RS use the SRFI 60 definition.  That makes it a pointless but breaking change, especially since SRFI 33 was withdrawn.
2017-04-22T19:12:25Z mist_: hi, i'm a philosophy undergrad writing my ba thesis on lambda calculus. i don't have problems with materials on calculus itself,
2017-04-22T19:13:10Z mist_: but i'd like a good recommendation on some CS book using scheme. I have SICP, but these guys are moving really fast. plus, it was written long time ago
2017-04-22T19:13:48Z X-Scale: LISP - Lisp In Small Pieces
2017-04-22T19:14:19Z mist_: i was recommended 'simply scheme' by brian harvey and matthew wright. It seems alright. Do you have any pointers for a newbie with weak math background?
2017-04-22T19:14:35Z mist_: will check that out, thanks :)
2017-04-22T19:18:03Z qu1j0t3: mist_: what's your objective? learning scheme or something beyond that?
2017-04-22T19:19:29Z mist_: i'd like to program, i'm hooked on lisp, that's why i write thesis on lambda calculus.
2017-04-22T19:20:19Z mist_: So i'd like to learn scheme as a stepping stone to building stuff with it.
2017-04-22T19:21:15Z mist_: And i figured that knowing implementation some details on implemenatation of lambda calculus wouldn't hurt now too.
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2017-04-22T19:22:44Z qu1j0t3: ok, there are many books to help learn scheme. I used 'Programming in Scheme' by Abelson & Eisenberg
2017-04-22T19:22:49Z qu1j0t3: SICP is not a book to teach Scheme/.
2017-04-22T19:23:12Z qu1j0t3: some people swear by The Little Schemer.
2017-04-22T19:25:50Z mist_: the little schemer is something i have on my list, yeah
2017-04-22T19:26:11Z mist_: I will check out 'Programming in Scheme'
2017-04-22T19:26:18Z qu1j0t3: the style doesn't work for everyone, but if it works for you, great (re TLS)
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2017-04-22T19:27:31Z qu1j0t3: iirc Programming in Scheme has exercises
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2017-04-22T20:04:48Z alezost: mist_: I like "Sketchy Lisp": http://community.schemewiki.org/?Sketchy-LISP
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2017-04-22T20:26:56Z mist_: Thanks!
2017-04-22T20:27:14Z mist_: alezost: i have not heard about 'sketchy lisp'
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2017-04-22T20:43:58Z ecraven: jcowan: I would still argue for an update of the existing srfi, not a new version
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2017-04-22T21:02:25Z zacts: hi schemers
2017-04-22T21:15:34Z mist_: hi
2017-04-22T21:16:41Z wasamasa: welcome to zombocom
2017-04-22T21:17:10Z jcowan: ecraven: why?
2017-04-22T21:25:15Z mist_: wasamasa: what?
2017-04-22T21:25:28Z mist_: 'zombocom'?
2017-04-22T21:25:44Z wasamasa: http://html5zombo.com/
2017-04-22T21:28:36Z mist_: nothing there
2017-04-22T21:28:52Z wasamasa: I'm curious what browser you're using
2017-04-22T21:29:05Z mist_: okay, i misread l for 1
2017-04-22T21:29:16Z wasamasa: you should be *clicking* this
2017-04-22T21:29:38Z wasamasa: or at the very least, copy/paste
2017-04-22T21:30:04Z mist_: my terminal setup is weird,
2017-04-22T21:30:16Z mist_: doesn't yet work with irssi
2017-04-22T21:30:23Z mist_: that well
2017-04-22T21:31:09Z mist_: so this is zombocom, where everything is possible...
2017-04-22T21:31:25Z wasamasa: welcome
2017-04-22T21:31:37Z mist_: :)
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2017-04-22T22:35:17Z Riastradh: ecraven: Sorry, I don't remember what the issue is.  Can you send complete reproduction steps?
2017-04-22T22:35:45Z Riastradh: jcowan: Concur that every SRFI should have automatic tests.
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2017-04-22T22:38:32Z Riastradh: jcowan: Apologies for failing to include any in the SRFIs I wrote fifteen years ago!
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2017-04-23T16:30:07Z jcowan: Based on a note in SRFI 33, I've added logical-right-shift to SRFI 143, the fixnum library I'm working on.  Logical shifts don't make sense with bignums, only with fixnums.  The question is whether they are actually useful at all.
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2017-04-23T16:52:13Z ecraven: jcowan: it feels like a rather minor problem (wrong order of arguments in a single function), so it seems strange to create an entirely new srfi that doesn't differ from the other one but in that one minor detail
2017-04-23T16:52:18Z ecraven: imho
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2017-04-23T17:10:49Z chetshah: Hello all, Scheme beginner here,
2017-04-23T17:10:56Z chetshah: Hello all, I have two scheme files with .scm extension but one of them opens with a minor mode chicken, and one of them with minor mode guile. Any hints why?
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2017-04-23T17:11:27Z wasamasa: let me guess, you're using geiser
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2017-04-23T17:11:34Z chetshah: I want them to open in guile minor mode where I am correctly able to send buffer
2017-04-23T17:11:39Z chetshah: Yes wasamasa
2017-04-23T17:12:12Z wasamasa: then I'm out :>
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2017-04-23T17:15:02Z chetshah: I fire up the repl with M-x run-geiser and send .scm buffer via geiser-eval-buffer, but only works when there is a guile minor mode in .scm buffer
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2017-04-23T17:18:22Z jcowan: ecraven: If it wasn't a silent breaking change, I'd agree.  But people writing R6RS or SLIB code have expectations about how bitwise-if works, plus the analogy with `if` itself.
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2017-04-23T17:24:17Z chetshah: Ok, So I installed Chicken on ubuntu, After M-x run-geiser, and on selecting chicken,
2017-04-23T17:24:24Z chetshah: I get error Process Chicken REPL exited abnormally with code 70
2017-04-23T17:25:15Z chetshah: regarding import of chicken-doc
2017-04-23T17:25:38Z wasamasa: you'll need to install a few more things before using it with geiser
2017-04-23T17:25:40Z daviid: chetshah: you shoud fire using M-x run-guile
2017-04-23T17:26:03Z daviid: *should
2017-04-23T17:29:39Z ecraven: jcowan: well, I'm ok with changing it or leaving it, but I find creating a new SRFI which differs in nothing but that a bit.. wasteful? whimsical? sorry, not a native speaker
2017-04-23T17:29:58Z ecraven: but of course, that is just my opinion, anyone can propose any srfi ;)
2017-04-23T17:30:01Z jcowan: (Either is fine)
2017-04-23T17:30:21Z jcowan: There is no shortage of positive integers, after all
2017-04-23T17:30:57Z jcowan: And it's not as if I was urging the replacement of SRFI 1; this is very new, and it appears AFAIK only in the latest Chibi
2017-04-23T17:31:30Z jcowan: But if anyone does have code working against SRFI 142, it won't break.
2017-04-23T17:33:08Z ecraven: will the new srfi include some sort of rationale, explaining why it exists, differing in almost nothing from the old one? that would help people in the future ;)
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2017-04-23T17:33:33Z ecraven: wasamasa: not a fan of geiser?
2017-04-23T17:33:44Z ecraven: hm.. I still haven't pushed my chibi swank anywhere, should do that soon
2017-04-23T17:34:03Z wasamasa: ecraven: I gave up on it after running into bugs ruining the experience over and over again
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2017-04-23T17:35:15Z chetshah: wasamasa I got chicken repl working and able to send my buffer to chicken repl when minor mode is Chicken :)
2017-04-23T17:35:21Z wasamasa: it's one thing if I try a new project and run into less than serious bugs that I can fix myself given some time, but with geiser the bugs made development tedious and I gave up on debugging
2017-04-23T17:35:37Z wasamasa: so I decided to not use it
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2017-04-23T17:36:01Z wasamasa: a terminal emulator with some hacks to csi works much smoother for me
2017-04-23T17:36:08Z chetshah: What I wonder is why different minor modes open when they are both .scm files ?
2017-04-23T17:36:26Z wasamasa: geiser tries guessing the scheme
2017-04-23T17:36:45Z ecraven: and unfortunately often fails :-/
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2017-04-24T08:25:26Z ecraven: foof``: does chibi-ffi support direct struct parameters / return values? (i.e. not via a pointer)?
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2017-04-24T11:59:51Z Vermie: Hey
2017-04-24T11:59:54Z Vermie: What's up?
2017-04-24T12:00:56Z X-Scale: hi Vermie
2017-04-24T12:01:15Z Vermie: What's up? I'm so excited -- I just got a basic Scheme working
2017-04-24T12:01:17Z Vermie: in C++
2017-04-24T12:02:41Z X-Scale: a Scheme interpreter in C++ ?
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2017-04-24T12:04:51Z jackdaniel: Vermie: congrats :-)
2017-04-24T12:05:07Z Vermie: It's great!
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2017-04-24T12:07:07Z ecraven: nice
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2017-04-24T12:42:42Z Vermie: hey
2017-04-24T12:42:48Z Vermie: can somebody recommend some performance tests for me
2017-04-24T12:48:06Z jackdaniel: gambit scheme had some benchmarks
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2017-04-24T12:49:03Z jackdaniel: http://gambitscheme.org/wiki/index.php/Benchmarks
2017-04-24T12:49:17Z DerGuteMoritz: Vermie: If your Scheme implements R7RS, check https://github.com/ecraven/r7rs-benchmarks
2017-04-24T12:49:27Z Vermie: DerGuteMoritz: We want to but we're not there yet lol
2017-04-24T12:49:41Z DerGuteMoritz: Vermie: Okay :-)
2017-04-24T12:49:47Z Vermie: Unfortunately
2017-04-24T12:49:55Z Vermie: But hey! I have a REPL working! My god it took so long
2017-04-24T12:50:07Z Vermie: I spent half the semester with a no-good evaluation model
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2017-04-24T18:42:09Z bor0: can anyone tell me why this is producing the wrong number for volume? works for area though
2017-04-24T18:42:10Z bor0: http://paste.lisp.org/display/345064
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2017-04-24T18:42:45Z bor0: the results should be '(414.0 36024.1) but my program produces '(414.0 36024.1) instead
2017-04-24T18:43:09Z ecraven: that looks exactly the same to me
2017-04-24T18:43:20Z bor0: since the area works and the volume doesn't, I'm assuming it's some kind of floating point error due to the usage of circle-area. but any help will be useful :)
2017-04-24T18:43:44Z bor0: ecraven, if you were talking to me, what looks exactly the same?
2017-04-24T18:44:10Z ecraven: '(414.0 36024.1) and '(414.0 36024.1)
2017-04-24T18:44:18Z bor0: oh, sorry
2017-04-24T18:44:24Z ecraven: also, sorry to say, I have to run :-/
2017-04-24T18:44:34Z bor0: the results should be '(414.0 36024.1) but my program produces '(414.0 36018.9) instead
2017-04-24T18:44:57Z bor0: the error is +/- 15 even for different coefficients and degrees. I'm solving https://www.hackerrank.com/challenges/area-under-curves-and-volume-of-revolving-a-curv
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2017-04-24T18:56:41Z wasamasa: if you're talking about SICP, it could be an off-by-one error
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2017-04-24T19:12:12Z ecraven: that ^ sounds probably
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2017-04-24T19:16:24Z wasamasa: at least that was my problem when doing the simpson approximation exercise :P
2017-04-24T19:17:11Z wasamasa: doesn't help that there is a field of mathematics purely concerned in what order to do calculations to minimize error
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2017-04-24T19:24:33Z edgar-rft: but SICP was desiged to teach computer programming to non-mathematicians, and now that is the result you have to live with...
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2017-04-24T21:30:14Z jcowan: nobody
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2017-04-24T22:14:48Z qu1j0t3: indeed
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2017-04-26T00:59:54Z names: tristero taylan webshinra SkyThrusting m1dnight_ ski GGMethos dmiles clog Blukunfando kori mario-goulart pflanze snits amz3 dan64 fiddlerwoaroof fadein ecraven yrdz ericmathison Kkiro c0dehero weinholt bgardner axion rudybot vifino ec ggherdov alphor defanor SirDayBat askatasuna mg_ carc larsen mbrock tessier_ niklasl2 Jasu_M finnrobi f32ff rsully M_D_K owickstrom lalex zbigniew asumu Kryo lucasem drot akkad DGASAU failproofshark paroneayea cartwright
2017-04-26T00:59:54Z names: MorTal1ty stephe ekkelett vikraman cibs eatonphil _0x5eb_ z0d Vivek davexunit Blkt C-Keen choas_ gnomon XTL profan Riviera gko gwatt rotty cjh` stamourv eMBee stux|work \h ByronJohnson CustosL1men cojy edw yosafbridge DerGuteMoritz tmc ohama LeoNerd aeth jackdaniel eagleflo dpk jeapostrophe ozzloy joast sbauman r0kc4t pchrist ineiros kbtr tokik amoe_ samth wingo jcloud renopt aking abbe taij33n kwmiebach___ micmus ec\_ evhan greghendershott copec
2017-04-26T00:59:54Z names: neuri8 jefrite stasku rjungemann mjl jyc cky gabot gf3 kjak fizzie benaiah jrdnull Hijiri snw ijp mikeyhc ft tephra_
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2017-04-26T04:26:42Z chetshah: Hello all, scheme beginner here. Was wondering what functions/forms allow use of square brackets instead of parentheses(making it more readable) ? Do all implementations support it?
2017-04-26T04:27:44Z chetshah: I've seen cond and let.
2017-04-26T04:29:03Z kori: chetshah: all of them
2017-04-26T04:29:09Z kori: depending on implementation, that is
2017-04-26T04:29:27Z kori: scheme@(guile-user)> [[lambda [x] [* x x]] 10]
2017-04-26T04:29:28Z kori: $1 = 100
2017-04-26T04:29:44Z kori: square brackets and parens are equivalent here
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2017-04-26T04:30:45Z kori: chez supports square brackets too
2017-04-26T04:30:47Z chetshah: Ah! got it! I was aiming to use it in define-syntax/syntax-rules where there are many parentheses nearby. Thanks!
2017-04-26T04:31:07Z kori: cheers
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2017-04-26T05:26:15Z ecraven: only r6rs actually supports it, I think
2017-04-26T05:26:40Z ecraven: []{} are only reserved for future use in r7rs (and r5rs), they aren't actually assigned any meaning
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2017-04-26T11:46:26Z lloda`: Guile doesn't support e.g. #[a v e c t o r]
2017-04-26T11:53:54Z ecraven: lloda`: why would it, that's not mandated by any standard, is it?
2017-04-26T11:54:09Z ecraven: well, not by any that guile implements ;)
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2017-04-26T12:01:31Z lloda`: Guile implements a good part of R6RS. The Guile reader has a reader flag 'square-brackets' which is on by default. It just doesn't work for that particular example, it's a bug.
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2017-04-26T12:45:51Z gwatt: r6rs doesn't require #[ be supported.
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2017-04-27T04:25:57Z groovy2shoes: jcowan, ecraven:  https://pastebin.com/xuK0xUdy
2017-04-27T04:32:20Z ecraven: nice!
2017-04-27T04:34:21Z groovy2shoes: I'd originally written a translation of an Old Norse prayer, but it bothered me that it wasn't poetic in the sense of Old English poetry, so I composed that over the last couple days B)
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2017-04-27T11:51:21Z jcowan: groovy2shoes: Most of the lines alliterate on the fourth stress, which is a deep no-no in OE poetry.  You need to change the word order so the third stress alliterates with the first or second or both, but never with the fourth.
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2017-04-27T16:35:26Z groovy2shoes: thanks, jcowan :)
2017-04-27T16:35:57Z jcowan: I mean, it just *grates*, alliteration on the fourth, yknowwutImean?
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2017-04-27T16:43:22Z groovy2shoes: ;D
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2017-04-28T12:19:33Z evilbinary: hi
2017-04-28T12:19:47Z evilbinary: I'm new guys here.
2017-04-28T12:26:56Z X-Scale: evilbinary: be welcome
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2017-04-28T13:02:30Z evilbinary: oh?
2017-04-28T13:02:35Z evilbinary: X-Scale: hi,
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2017-04-28T13:19:39Z X-Scale: evilbinary: hi :)
2017-04-28T13:20:59Z evilbinary: X-Scale: haha :)
2017-04-28T13:21:42Z evilbinary: https://github.com/evilbinary/scheme-lib
2017-04-28T13:21:47Z evilbinary: a scheme-lib?
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2017-04-28T16:04:04Z mgood7123: what editors are capable of executing Scheme code directly in the editor
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2017-04-28T16:26:45Z brendyn: mgood7123: Like Dr Racket?
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2017-04-28T17:18:04Z ski: mgood7123 : or Edwin
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2017-04-28T17:26:25Z ecraven: emacs
2017-04-28T17:26:43Z ecraven: with slime/geiser or maybe guile-emacs
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2017-04-28T19:23:21Z mgood7123: how do i use dr racket to code in chicken scheme
2017-04-28T19:29:23Z kori: I don't think you can
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2017-04-28T19:59:53Z qu1j0t3: you can use it as an editor
2017-04-28T20:00:18Z qu1j0t3: but of course none of the ide stuff will work with chicken
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2017-04-28T20:17:26Z C-Keen: also stuff like completion and syntax highlighting won't work since the languages don't match
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2017-04-28T20:51:12Z mgood7123: ;-;
2017-04-28T20:51:30Z mgood7123: what editors/ide's will work with chicken
2017-04-28T20:52:35Z burtons: chicken works with emacs+gozer i think
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2017-04-28T20:57:12Z mgood7123: can scheme be compiled to source
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2017-04-28T21:04:37Z mgood7123: decompiled*
2017-04-28T21:15:16Z mgood7123: is lisp/chicken/scheme the hardest language to decompile?
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2017-04-28T21:28:54Z qu1j0t3: vim works fine
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2017-04-28T22:32:58Z wasamasa is now known as {{{
2017-04-28T22:33:01Z {{{ is now known as bagelmasa
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