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ZZZzzz…) 2017-03-01T13:31:24Z VermillionAzure joined #scheme 2017-03-01T13:31:28Z VermillionAzure: Helllo???? 2017-03-01T13:31:33Z VermillionAzure: anyone awake 2017-03-01T13:33:04Z ecraven: yea 2017-03-01T13:33:35Z VermillionAzure: anybody good with implementing Scheme? 2017-03-01T13:37:42Z mejja: hello ecraven! 2017-03-01T13:37:52Z ecraven: hey mejja 2017-03-01T13:38:22Z mejja: ecraven: what's your timezone? 2017-03-01T13:38:23Z ecraven: still using MIT/GNU Scheme? 2017-03-01T13:38:29Z ecraven: GMT+1 or so 2017-03-01T13:39:23Z mejja: ecraven: south africa? 2017-03-01T13:40:56Z ecraven: central europe 2017-03-01T13:42:19Z mejja: since when? 2017-03-01T13:50:09Z wilfredh joined #scheme 2017-03-01T13:50:23Z VermillionAzure left #scheme 2017-03-01T13:51:46Z alezost joined #scheme 2017-03-01T14:03:26Z mejja quit (Quit: \ No newline at end of file) 2017-03-01T14:10:26Z matt11235 joined #scheme 2017-03-01T14:11:13Z davorb quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-03-01T14:11:33Z davorb joined #scheme 2017-03-01T14:22:10Z cromachina quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-03-01T14:33:58Z gravicappa joined #scheme 2017-03-01T14:44:00Z DGASAU quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-03-01T14:44:24Z cibs quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-03-01T14:44:36Z DGASAU joined #scheme 2017-03-01T14:46:01Z cemerick quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-03-01T14:46:05Z cibs joined #scheme 2017-03-01T14:47:06Z cemerick joined #scheme 2017-03-01T14:57:31Z ecraven: how do web frameworks deal with HEAD requests 2017-03-01T14:57:38Z ecraven: just render the page internally, then only return the headers? 2017-03-01T14:59:01Z gwatt: ecraven: probably depends on the server 2017-03-01T15:00:38Z ecraven: hm.. seems rails for example does just that 2017-03-01T15:05:56Z alezost quit (Quit: I live in GuixSD and Emacs ) 2017-03-01T15:20:47Z manualcrank joined #scheme 2017-03-01T15:23:08Z lambda-smith quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-03-01T15:23:33Z edgar-rft quit (Quit: edgar-rft) 2017-03-01T15:26:10Z jeapostrophe quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2017-03-01T15:34:00Z TheLemonMan joined #scheme 2017-03-01T15:42:29Z jeapostrophe joined #scheme 2017-03-01T15:42:29Z jeapostrophe quit (Changing host) 2017-03-01T15:42:29Z jeapostrophe joined #scheme 2017-03-01T15:45:42Z oleo joined #scheme 2017-03-01T15:47:24Z jeapostrophe quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-03-01T15:50:50Z groscoe joined #scheme 2017-03-01T15:53:44Z kettle_tea quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-03-01T16:01:28Z groscoe quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-03-01T16:11:26Z davorb quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-03-01T16:12:13Z davorb joined #scheme 2017-03-01T16:18:00Z kuribas joined #scheme 2017-03-01T16:19:37Z stepnem quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-03-01T16:28:06Z sethalves quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-03-01T16:34:19Z sz0 quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2017-03-01T16:43:15Z jeapostrophe joined #scheme 2017-03-01T16:48:10Z jeapostrophe quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-03-01T16:49:40Z cemerick quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2017-03-01T16:50:02Z cemerick joined #scheme 2017-03-01T16:53:40Z Riastradh quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-03-01T16:55:22Z akkad quit (Excess Flood) 2017-03-01T16:55:47Z akkad joined #scheme 2017-03-01T16:56:25Z wilfredh quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2017-03-01T16:57:36Z TheLemonMan quit (Quit: "It's now safe to turn off your computer.") 2017-03-01T16:59:00Z alezost joined #scheme 2017-03-01T17:03:27Z lambda-smith joined #scheme 2017-03-01T17:03:50Z wtetzner joined #scheme 2017-03-01T17:13:32Z jeapostrophe joined #scheme 2017-03-01T17:13:32Z jeapostrophe quit (Changing host) 2017-03-01T17:13:32Z jeapostrophe joined #scheme 2017-03-01T17:14:07Z sethalves joined #scheme 2017-03-01T17:17:54Z jao joined #scheme 2017-03-01T17:19:20Z reggggieee joined #scheme 2017-03-01T17:22:27Z greatscottttt quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.5) 2017-03-01T17:25:47Z jmd joined #scheme 2017-03-01T17:28:35Z badkins quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-03-01T17:32:48Z logicmoo joined #scheme 2017-03-01T17:34:34Z dmiles quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2017-03-01T17:41:46Z wtetzner quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-03-01T17:42:47Z pjb joined #scheme 2017-03-01T17:50:45Z badkins joined #scheme 2017-03-01T17:50:49Z cemerick quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-03-01T17:50:52Z akkad quit (Excess Flood) 2017-03-01T17:51:34Z cemerick joined #scheme 2017-03-01T17:53:14Z alezost quit (Quit: I live in GuixSD and Emacs ) 2017-03-01T17:53:18Z akkad joined #scheme 2017-03-01T17:53:57Z ertesx joined #scheme 2017-03-01T17:54:27Z badkins_ joined #scheme 2017-03-01T17:57:44Z ertes quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2017-03-01T17:57:44Z ertesx is now known as ertes 2017-03-01T17:58:10Z badkins quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-03-01T17:59:29Z akkad quit (Excess Flood) 2017-03-01T18:00:41Z fiddlerwoaroof joined #scheme 2017-03-01T18:04:07Z cemerick quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-03-01T18:07:47Z akkad joined #scheme 2017-03-01T18:11:36Z davorb quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-03-01T18:11:52Z davorb joined #scheme 2017-03-01T18:14:21Z cemerick joined #scheme 2017-03-01T18:15:48Z edgar-rft joined #scheme 2017-03-01T18:26:36Z FlashyOne joined #scheme 2017-03-01T18:26:42Z FlashyOne: hi 2017-03-01T18:26:53Z FlashyOne: how good is scheme as a declarative programming language? 2017-03-01T18:27:57Z kori: its good 2017-03-01T18:28:05Z wasamasa: there are several prolog implementations in scheme 2017-03-01T18:28:20Z FlashyOne: i'm basically thinking of using it as a DSL 2017-03-01T18:28:24Z alezost joined #scheme 2017-03-01T18:28:36Z FlashyOne: like, there will be a file with a map of something 2017-03-01T18:28:43Z wasamasa: so, just reading s-expressions? 2017-03-01T18:28:43Z FlashyOne: and a program to generate code from that 2017-03-01T18:28:56Z wasamasa: IIRC tuxcart does that 2017-03-01T18:29:23Z FlashyOne: like, i need some way to say, "when X is 45, then if Y is 42, take this and this and turn it into that and that and write it this way" 2017-03-01T18:30:16Z wasamasa: https://github.com/jorgenschaefer/elpy/blob/master/elpy.el#L69-L77 2017-03-01T18:30:17Z wasamasa: err 2017-03-01T18:30:25Z wasamasa: https://github.com/SuperTux/supertux/search?l=scheme 2017-03-01T18:30:39Z pjb: (when (and-then (is x 45) (y is 42)) (write (turn-into (take (and this this)) (and that that)) this-way)) 2017-03-01T18:31:01Z FlashyOne: pjb: haha, nice 2017-03-01T18:31:08Z grublet joined #scheme 2017-03-01T18:31:45Z FlashyOne: at first i thought a table would be enough, but now i realized the rules are too complex and non-linear, so i need a DSL 2017-03-01T18:33:38Z FlashyOne: ok so 2017-03-01T18:33:55Z FlashyOne: i could write scheme code that contains those functions which output stuff 2017-03-01T18:34:07Z FlashyOne: and then somehow read a file that calls those functions and call it? 2017-03-01T18:34:55Z wasamasa: no, you read a file, walk over the parsed contents and do stuff 2017-03-01T18:36:07Z FlashyOne: but isn't it easier to just (load "filename")? 2017-03-01T18:36:22Z FlashyOne: (load "filename.scm") 2017-03-01T18:37:36Z FlashyOne: or it could even be all in the same file really 2017-03-01T18:37:48Z wasamasa: well, that wouldn't constitute a DSL :P 2017-03-01T18:37:49Z FlashyOne: i just need to define functions that generate 2017-03-01T18:37:56Z wasamasa: it's just you executing random code there 2017-03-01T18:38:18Z FlashyOne: well it's an internal DSL 2017-03-01T18:38:29Z FlashyOne: it's basically scheme being extended and used as a DSL 2017-03-01T18:38:46Z FlashyOne: it would be like: 2017-03-01T18:39:27Z FlashyOne: (generate-interrupt-handler 0x21 (parameter "AH" ... 2017-03-01T18:39:35Z FlashyOne: and my scheme code would turn that into assembly 2017-03-01T18:39:36Z john_g_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-03-01T18:40:13Z FlashyOne: basically the reason why i need it is because typing all that assembly out would be extremely tedious 2017-03-01T18:40:26Z john_g_ joined #scheme 2017-03-01T18:40:39Z wasamasa: time to define-syntax 2017-03-01T18:43:48Z FlashyOne: i don't really know if scheme is the right choice 2017-03-01T18:44:03Z FlashyOne: even perl could do this, but in perl i can't easily embed rules 2017-03-01T18:44:14Z FlashyOne: in scheme i can 2017-03-01T18:54:00Z daviid joined #scheme 2017-03-01T18:54:16Z CORDIC: FlashyOne: [[http://sassy.sourceforge.net/][Sassy]]? 2017-03-01T18:57:25Z FlashyOne: interesting, but i'm actually trying to generate assembly code 2017-03-01T18:57:47Z FlashyOne: one would think a nasm macro would be enough 2017-03-01T18:57:53Z FlashyOne: but in this case, far from it 2017-03-01T19:00:14Z FlashyOne: well i don't know, i guess that's not impossible either 2017-03-01T19:00:42Z FlashyOne: nasm macros are very powerful 2017-03-01T19:01:10Z lambda-smith quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-03-01T19:05:15Z Vivek joined #scheme 2017-03-01T19:05:50Z jcowan joined #scheme 2017-03-01T19:18:30Z acarrico joined #scheme 2017-03-01T19:22:15Z ChrisOei joined #scheme 2017-03-01T19:22:31Z john_g_ quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-03-01T19:24:42Z ChrisOei quit (Client Quit) 2017-03-01T19:27:03Z jshjsh quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-03-01T19:28:05Z nanoz joined #scheme 2017-03-01T19:46:50Z matt11235 quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-03-01T19:47:10Z bjz joined #scheme 2017-03-01T19:47:11Z reggggieee quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-03-01T19:51:39Z Riastradh joined #scheme 2017-03-01T19:55:46Z lritter quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-03-01T20:09:22Z webshinra quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-03-01T20:11:35Z davorb quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-03-01T20:12:31Z davorb joined #scheme 2017-03-01T20:13:03Z webshinra joined #scheme 2017-03-01T20:23:16Z jmd quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-03-01T20:25:57Z alezost quit (Quit: I live in GuixSD and Emacs ) 2017-03-01T20:28:45Z matt11235 joined #scheme 2017-03-01T20:35:33Z nanoz quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-03-01T20:43:48Z gravicappa quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-03-01T20:48:59Z jrslepak_ joined #scheme 2017-03-01T20:53:06Z joast quit (*.net *.split) 2017-03-01T20:53:06Z jrslepak quit (*.net *.split) 2017-03-01T21:04:37Z jrslepak_ is now known as jrslepak 2017-03-01T21:10:42Z bjz quit (Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. 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"RBX" is a buffer whose size is in "RCX", it should end up in "DS:BX" and "CX" 2017-03-01T22:42:55Z jonaslund: wasamasa: with the exception of thread local variables 2017-03-01T22:43:04Z FlashyOne: so i need scheme to turn those rules into x86 assembly code 2017-03-01T22:43:14Z wasamasa: a lispy assembler, huh 2017-03-01T22:43:17Z jonaslund: wasamasa: atleast windows uses different selectors to re-map thread local variables to separate memory locations 2017-03-01T22:43:29Z wasamasa: jonaslund: interesting 2017-03-01T22:43:36Z jonaslund: (I'd be surprised if linux didn't do this also) 2017-03-01T22:43:40Z wasamasa: I assumed you'd access them read-only, if at all 2017-03-01T22:43:41Z FlashyOne: yep, the FS register 2017-03-01T22:44:14Z wasamasa: I'm currently studying the sources of interim and reading up on all those fun low-level details 2017-03-01T22:44:14Z FlashyOne: NtCurrentTib() is implemented in ntdll.dll, because all it does is read [fs:0x18] 2017-03-01T22:44:27Z wasamasa: ARM assembler makes me way less sad than x86 ._. 2017-03-01T22:44:37Z FlashyOne knows this of course, being a ReactOS developer 2017-03-01T22:44:45Z jonaslund: FlashyOne: for your own sanity, just provide a low-memory allocator for code that needs to do this and let them use dos functions plainly (every dos-extender in the 90s did this) 2017-03-01T22:45:02Z jonaslund: FlashyOne: then perhaps provide another higher level API for file writes 2017-03-01T22:45:04Z FlashyOne: jonaslund: but this would be so cool, if i could auto-generate converters 2017-03-01T22:45:21Z jonaslund: FlashyOne: you'd be chasing semantics all over the place 2017-03-01T22:45:50Z FlashyOne: i just need to mark what's a buffer and what its size is 2017-03-01T22:46:27Z FlashyOne: jonaslund: in my OS kernel i do what you suggested though 2017-03-01T22:46:40Z FlashyOne: jonaslund: i have vm86_alloc() and vm86_interrupt() 2017-03-01T22:46:51Z FlashyOne: (and of course vm86_free) 2017-03-01T22:47:03Z FlashyOne: it's only used for VESA 2017-03-01T22:47:11Z jonaslund is happy that he got his "want to write his own OS" itch out of the way doing a gameboy OS and writing that dos-extender in the past 2017-03-01T22:47:31Z jonaslund: vesa.... memories 2017-03-01T22:47:49Z wasamasa: I'm fine with contributing code to a hobbyist OS :P 2017-03-01T22:47:51Z FlashyOne: DOS64 would be something new though! 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Like 'LOW 'MEDIUM 'HIGH and then else where typo 'HIHG causes runtime errors. 2017-03-02T22:44:11Z lipvnip: would it not be better to require all symbols to be defined before used, like vars and functions? 2017-03-02T22:44:22Z lipvnip: like (symbol LOW MEDIUM HIGH) 2017-03-02T22:44:28Z qu1j0t3: like...... a sum type??????? 2017-03-02T22:44:38Z lipvnip: then they could be used without quotes as well 2017-03-02T22:45:03Z `0x00` joined #scheme 2017-03-02T22:45:32Z lipvnip: qu1j0t3: ? 2017-03-02T22:46:43Z qu1j0t3: you're describing a sum type, which also has the advantages that different sets of values aren't interchangeable. 2017-03-02T22:46:57Z qu1j0t3: maybe one of the typed extensions to scheme supports this 2017-03-02T22:47:18Z lipvnip: right. enums. with it, could you do without old-school symbols? 2017-03-02T22:47:31Z qu1j0t3: well... enums aren't really good enough 2017-03-02T22:47:40Z lipvnip: enum-ish 2017-03-02T22:48:33Z lipvnip: what i mean is a global enum, any (symbol ...) expression would add to this, making sure any symbol is defined before use 2017-03-02T22:48:48Z lipvnip: my typos would get an error :) 2017-03-02T22:49:12Z qu1j0t3: what if you just (define'd names instead. 2017-03-02T22:49:15Z qu1j0t3: the you'd get an error. 2017-03-02T22:49:44Z lipvnip: and a (symbol ... ) macro to define a bunch of names at once? 2017-03-02T22:50:15Z qu1j0t3: yeah that could work in an enumish way indeed 2017-03-02T22:50:19Z lipvnip: i'm new to lisp. I just wonder if there's more to 'SYM than this. Could I do without Lisp symbols? 2017-03-02T22:50:32Z lipvnip: or is there some mysterious magic i'm missing 2017-03-02T22:50:44Z lipvnip: they sound like intern'ed strings basically 2017-03-02T22:51:01Z lipvnip: with a huge disadvantage of typos not getting caught until runtime :) 2017-03-02T22:51:01Z qu1j0t3: you've already found one problem with symbols -- they're self evaluating 2017-03-02T22:51:11Z qu1j0t3: so you can always just invent one 2017-03-02T22:51:20Z qu1j0t3: and it will always be accepted since there's only one universe of symbols 2017-03-02T22:51:42Z qu1j0t3: i like your macro idea 2017-03-02T22:51:42Z lipvnip: right 2017-03-02T22:51:51Z qu1j0t3: looks like Typed Racket doesn't support sum types :| 2017-03-02T22:52:13Z lipvnip: i'll just go ahead and write, see where it goes :) 2017-03-02T22:52:23Z lipvnip: write it* 2017-03-02T22:52:42Z lipvnip: thanks for the input man 2017-03-02T22:53:11Z qu1j0t3: oh, wait, it does 2017-03-02T22:53:18Z qu1j0t3: i thought at first unions wouldn't do it, but it seems they can. 2017-03-02T22:53:45Z qu1j0t3: the doc is unclear 2017-03-02T22:53:58Z qu1j0t3: np 2017-03-02T22:57:14Z qu1j0t3: Ah yes, to be clear, Typed Racket does support this concept, as each Symbol is a distinct type. 2017-03-02T23:00:17Z lipvnip: sure, no probs when i use racket, but this is for mit-scheme 2017-03-02T23:00:47Z lipvnip: also, the real thing here is if symbols is a flawed concept :) 2017-03-02T23:01:15Z wasamasa: symbols merely happen to be one of the fundamental data structures lisp is built upon 2017-03-02T23:01:17Z lipvnip: i see no advantage of symbols over a proper sum type 2017-03-02T23:01:36Z lipvnip: wasamasa: how is a symbol a data structure? 2017-03-02T23:01:41Z lipvnip: it's just an interned string 2017-03-02T23:01:49Z lipvnip: which allows for typos :) 2017-03-02T23:01:50Z wasamasa: that's a way to implement it 2017-03-02T23:02:11Z wasamasa: you're getting a tad hung up on type checking 2017-03-02T23:02:23Z lipvnip: not all, no type checking 2017-03-02T23:02:29Z lipvnip: just checking that the symbol is defined before use 2017-03-02T23:02:32Z wasamasa: I could likewise say "How is an array a data structure? It's just a block of memory" 2017-03-02T23:02:34Z lipvnip: because i'm making typos 2017-03-02T23:02:36Z wasamasa: not helpful 2017-03-02T23:02:39Z lipvnip: helpful to me 2017-03-02T23:03:00Z CORDIC: /kick lipvnip 2017-03-02T23:03:00Z groscoe quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2017-03-02T23:03:07Z lipvnip: CORDIC: why? 2017-03-02T23:03:31Z Riastradh: lipvnip has an entirely legitimate point. This hostility is unprovoked. 2017-03-02T23:03:49Z CORDIC: k, I apologize. 2017-03-02T23:04:31Z wasamasa: lipvnip: when a scheme implementation reads in "(define foo bar)", what do you reckon the type of that would be? 2017-03-02T23:05:11Z lipvnip: wasamasa: to be clear, i meant interned conceptually. As in, two occurences of the same string of characters is considered to be the same. 'ABC in one place is the same as 'ABC in another. 2017-03-02T23:05:39Z lipvnip: my problem is that 'ABCD is accepted without me defining it as a symbol first 2017-03-02T23:05:49Z lipvnip: i have to do that for variables and functions, so why not symbols? 2017-03-02T23:06:01Z wasamasa: let's define all constants before using them 2017-03-02T23:06:23Z wasamasa: oh wait, that actually happens when you dare using a number literal in ARM assembly 2017-03-02T23:06:41Z lipvnip: i see what you mean, but that's not what i mean 2017-03-02T23:06:43Z wasamasa: I'm glad nearly every programming language is beyond that point 2017-03-02T23:06:59Z lipvnip: sigh 2017-03-02T23:07:05Z wasamasa: also, strings 2017-03-02T23:07:07Z Riastradh: lipvnip: Often one does encounter something like enumerations or (dynamic) sum types in Scheme. 2017-03-02T23:07:10Z wasamasa: they're just uninterned symbols 2017-03-02T23:07:15Z wasamasa: see picolisp 2017-03-02T23:07:32Z wasamasa: it doesn't have a string type, just a special kind of symbols you use by putting double quotes around them :> 2017-03-02T23:07:51Z lipvnip: not my cup of tea 2017-03-02T23:08:01Z wasamasa: I'm sure you and its author would get along 2017-03-02T23:08:09Z lipvnip: doesn't sound like it 2017-03-02T23:08:18Z wasamasa: you both have strong opinions 2017-03-02T23:08:48Z lipvnip: well, i'm *new* to lisp and wonder why about things. If that comes across as strong opinions, sorry :) 2017-03-02T23:09:12Z wasamasa: yes, if you present your opinion as the way to do it without wondering why it might not be, that is a strong opinion 2017-03-02T23:09:46Z wasamasa: anyway, my original answer to the question stands, symbols (and cons cells) happen to be the fundamental datatypes lisp is built upon 2017-03-02T23:09:46Z lipvnip: it genuinely bothers me that (myfun x) fails if myfun is not defined, but (dosomething 'ABC) is jolly good even if 'ABC is not defined as a valid symbol 2017-03-02T23:10:23Z wasamasa: restricting a fundamental data type to do something a type checker should sounds backwards to me 2017-03-02T23:10:34Z lipvnip: wasamasa: i know! my question was if a new language like Lisp could do fine without ad-hoc symbols 2017-03-02T23:10:49Z wasamasa: lipvnip: sure, clojure people use ad-hoc keywords instead 2017-03-02T23:11:00Z lipvnip: so far i havent't seen compelling arguments 2017-03-02T23:11:06Z wasamasa: they're currently going through a crisis where they add namespaces to each of them 2017-03-02T23:11:08Z lipvnip: just "that's the way it's always been done" 2017-03-02T23:11:35Z wasamasa: anyway, you haven't answered my question about what "(foo bar baz)" parses into 2017-03-02T23:11:45Z wasamasa: hint: it has something to do with said fundamental data structures 2017-03-02T23:12:43Z lipvnip: wasamasa: i didn't see that question. If bar was a symbol and baz was a variable and foo was a function (using my symbol-must-be-defined idea), then (foo 'bar baz) in lisp syntax 2017-03-02T23:12:58Z wasamasa: it parses into a list of the symbols foo, bar and baz 2017-03-02T23:13:15Z wasamasa: this is a good thing because it allows treating program code as data and vice versa 2017-03-02T23:13:39Z lipvnip: sure, but that's for the reader. 2017-03-02T23:13:47Z wasamasa: it's for the programmer as well :> 2017-03-02T23:13:47Z lipvnip: there is not problem here 2017-03-02T23:14:05Z lipvnip: for the programmer, i'd like symbols to be defined before use 2017-03-02T23:14:08Z wasamasa: precisely because symbols are interned as they're read in, this is possible 2017-03-02T23:14:09Z lipvnip: that doesn't affect macros 2017-03-02T23:14:17Z lipvnip: would still be possible 2017-03-02T23:14:21Z lipvnip: you mix things up 2017-03-02T23:14:48Z wasamasa: what else do you propose, declaring every symbol before reading in source code using that identifier? 2017-03-02T23:15:00Z lipvnip: no 2017-03-02T23:15:04Z wasamasa: and what for benefit? 2017-03-02T23:15:21Z wasamasa: or do you want to split up symbols into symbols for parse trees and symbols for sum types? 2017-03-02T23:15:25Z Riastradh: lipvnip: Consider (define-enumeration foo x y z), and then (foo x), (foo y), (foo z) instead of 'x, 'y, 'z in some API. 2017-03-02T23:15:50Z lipvnip: yes 2017-03-02T23:15:52Z wasamasa: what is the point of that, when you can do that properly by defining a type system? 2017-03-02T23:16:13Z Riastradh: lipvnip: This is a fairly common pattern in many Scheme programs. The objects that the expressions (foo x), (foo y), and (foo z) evaluate to are distinct from all other objects, and the compiler rejects it if you misspell it as, say, (foo w). 2017-03-02T23:16:18Z lipvnip: i'd like to avoid 'ABCD being accepted when I meant 'ABC 2017-03-02T23:16:48Z lipvnip: just like (fooo x) is rejected if i meant (foo x) 2017-03-02T23:17:56Z wasamasa: that's up to the designer of the API, to define additional types when needed and reject invalid ones 2017-03-02T23:18:12Z wasamasa: to be fair, there's plenty code not adhering to this and hoping the user gets it right 2017-03-02T23:19:09Z lipvnip: there is no API. It's me writing a substantial application which has to use symbols for various purposes. A tiny typo turns it into an undefined mess. 2017-03-02T23:20:51Z Riastradh: lipvnip: See, e.g., . 2017-03-02T23:21:17Z lipvnip: Riastradh: thanks 2017-03-02T23:21:19Z pjb quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-03-02T23:22:21Z Riastradh: wasamasa: Please try to be a little less hostile and deafly didactic. 2017-03-02T23:23:36Z pjb joined #scheme 2017-03-02T23:24:37Z lipvnip: Riastradh: the (indexer 'sym) syntax isn't fantastic, but i'll try it a bit 2017-03-02T23:25:00Z dTal: 23:22 < lipvnip> my problem is that 'ABCD is accepted without me defining it as a symbol first 2017-03-02T23:25:03Z dTal: 23:22 < lipvnip> i have to do that for variables and functions, so why not symbols? 2017-03-02T23:25:14Z dTal: I think you took that entirely the wrong direction 2017-03-02T23:25:21Z lipvnip: explain 2017-03-02T23:25:41Z lipvnip: remember, i'm not talking about reader's view of the world 2017-03-02T23:25:54Z dTal: why should you have to declare variables and functions? In some computere algebra systems you can use them implicitly 2017-03-02T23:25:59Z dTal: and I prefer that approach 2017-03-02T23:26:32Z dTal: 'x' unadorned, without further context, should evaluate to 'x' 2017-03-02T23:26:34Z lipvnip: dTal: so you're fine with mistyping (strng-length x) and go for 100% test coverage to catch the typo? 2017-03-02T23:26:38Z dTal: not "ahhhh error" 2017-03-02T23:26:47Z lipvnip: couldn't disagree more 2017-03-02T23:26:52Z dTal: well good for you 2017-03-02T23:27:28Z jaziz quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-03-02T23:28:07Z lipvnip: dTal: i have enough experience with Perl to know that approach doesn't work. It takes everything I write with the best of intension, leaving me with "interesting" debugging sessions simply because I transposed two characters. 2017-03-02T23:28:16Z dTal: the "typo" objection is valid, but fixing it by requiring declarations everywhere feels like throwing the baby out with the bathwater 2017-03-02T23:28:28Z lipvnip: how to fix it then? 2017-03-02T23:28:34Z lipvnip: if it's a valid objection 2017-03-02T23:28:34Z dTal: you shouldn't fix a problem like "typos" by restructuring the language 2017-03-02T23:28:45Z lipvnip: fix how then? 2017-03-02T23:28:55Z wasamasa: rudybot: let's integrate a levenshtein typo detector into the language 2017-03-02T23:29:16Z rudybot: wasamasa: ,levenshtein 2017-03-02T23:29:16Z dTal: I was thinking better tools with introspection, so it's obvious what thing is what 2017-03-02T23:29:34Z lipvnip: do they exist? link? 2017-03-02T23:29:48Z dTal: or how about syntax higlighting, make symbols have a color determined by a hash of their name 2017-03-02T23:30:30Z lipvnip: moving right along 2017-03-02T23:32:35Z Riastradh: lipvnip: See define-enumeration. No need for the ' or the run-time indexer. 2017-03-02T23:33:17Z jaziz joined #scheme 2017-03-02T23:34:02Z Riastradh: dTal: Point is to give programmers tools to *request* compiler-checked properties of correct API usage. 2017-03-02T23:34:20Z pjb quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-03-02T23:35:03Z lipvnip: Riastradh: but I have to prefix the symbol name with the enum name. Such as (color black), or am i missing something? 2017-03-02T23:35:55Z Riastradh: lipvnip: You are not missing anything. 2017-03-02T23:36:18Z lipvnip: alright 2017-03-02T23:36:28Z Riastradh: lipvnip: But you can always define variables instead of the syntactic enum constructor if you prefer. 2017-03-02T23:37:39Z lipvnip: Riastradh: i need symbol? to work 2017-03-02T23:37:57Z Riastradh: Why do you need that? 2017-03-02T23:38:34Z lipvnip: does it matter why? 2017-03-02T23:38:37Z wasamasa: I bet that enum thing has a predicate for them, too 2017-03-02T23:39:13Z Riastradh: lipvnip: The motivation for that curious requirement would help to inform the appropriate course of action to satisfy your needs. 2017-03-02T23:39:16Z enderby joined #scheme 2017-03-02T23:39:36Z lipvnip: the requirement is there 2017-03-02T23:41:32Z wasamasa: or wait, it says there they are turned into symbols 2017-03-02T23:42:43Z wasamasa: which would mean that while you use (color black) whenever referring to a specific enum value, the procedure receiving it would just see the symbol black 2017-03-02T23:43:01Z lipvnip: aren't you supposed to use enum-set-member? 2017-03-02T23:43:06Z lipvnip: oh wait 2017-03-02T23:44:07Z wasamasa: you may do that in the procedure to ensure it doesn't get invalid values, but if you're the user of the API, it's sufficient to use the "constructor" syntax everywhere 2017-03-02T23:44:20Z lipvnip: i see 2017-03-02T23:44:27Z wasamasa: I mean, if you're the only user 2017-03-02T23:45:21Z lipvnip: gonna try it 2017-03-02T23:46:02Z wasamasa: I wonder, is that enums thing envisioned for r7rs-large? 2017-03-02T23:47:39Z wasamasa: enums seem like a more useful addition to me than, say, ephemerons 2017-03-02T23:48:04Z Riastradh: Enums are trivially expressible in syntax-rules; ephemerons are not. 2017-03-02T23:48:35Z lipvnip: that just stupid, i tried the example and changing to (i 'yellows) yields no errors 2017-03-02T23:48:43Z lipvnip: (yes, there's a typo there) 2017-03-02T23:48:45Z jcowan_: I'm devising a different enum strategy for R7RS-large, which will appear as a SRFI in the next batch. 2017-03-02T23:48:51Z lipvnip: so it gains me nothing 2017-03-02T23:48:58Z lipvnip: tried it in racket 2017-03-02T23:49:01Z wasamasa: jcowan_: which docket is it for and what's your strategy? 2017-03-02T23:49:08Z jcowan_: There is a messy worksheet about it http://trac.sacrideo.us/wg/wiki/EnumsCowan 2017-03-02T23:49:21Z jcowan_: current (orange) docket, but might get postponed 2017-03-02T23:49:23Z stepnem quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-03-02T23:50:00Z jcowan_: Each enum is a unique object, belonging to a enum type, with a name (symbol), an ordinal number, and an arbitrary value. 2017-03-02T23:50:12Z daviid quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2017-03-02T23:50:17Z wasamasa: is there a way to define syntax like (color black)? 2017-03-02T23:50:27Z jcowan_: If you use the define-enum-type macro, it binds each enum object to an identifier 2017-03-02T23:50:44Z wasamasa: great :> 2017-03-02T23:50:59Z lipvnip removes (require rnrs/enums-6) as it's useless to help me catch typos 2017-03-02T23:51:51Z jcowan_: wasamasa: Maybe there should be. 2017-03-02T23:52:39Z wasamasa: I don't find long procedure names critical, you can still define something shorter if it's annoying to type out 2017-03-02T23:52:57Z lipvnip: (rage-quit) 2017-03-02T23:53:00Z lipvnip quit (Quit: argh) 2017-03-02T23:53:04Z wasamasa: lol 2017-03-02T23:53:18Z wasamasa: I wonder whether they'll do better on #racket 2017-03-02T23:53:57Z jcowan_: It's still not defined in my proposal whether (define-enum-type color red green blue) defines color-red or just red 2017-03-02T23:54:22Z jcowan_: I think the former makes more sense 2017-03-02T23:55:19Z wasamasa: the r6rs thing defines a color macro you call with the value as argument 2017-03-02T23:55:24Z wasamasa: which is a bit surprising, but eh 2017-03-02T23:55:52Z jcowan_: The idea is to allow compile-time checking, so that (color purple) will fail. But so will color-purple in my scheme. 2017-03-02T23:56:31Z jcowan_: However, it can't be done in syntax-rules, that's the bad part. 2017-03-02T23:56:43Z wasamasa: ._. 2017-03-02T23:57:12Z jcowan_: I'll think about it further 2017-03-02T23:57:19Z wasamasa: but Riastradh wrote "Enums are trivially expressible in syntax-rules" 2017-03-02T23:57:34Z jcowan_: Meaning R6RS enums 2017-03-02T23:58:11Z jcowan_: I'd be okay with (color red) as a macro, but what variable should be bound to the enum-type object? Can't be "color", as you can't use the same identifier as a variable and a syntax keyword. 2017-03-02T23:58:32Z jcowan_: Might need two different names, which would be somewhat annoying 2017-03-02T23:58:49Z jcowan_: Or leave the enum-type object not bound to anything, which ugly 2017-03-03T00:00:36Z jcowan_: Anyway, gotta go 2017-03-03T00:00:39Z jcowan_ quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-03-03T00:05:06Z wasamasa: hm, apparently lipvnip is the same person who asked previously here how to disable shadowing, citing C++ programs as proof why it's a problem 2017-03-03T00:06:26Z cromachina joined #scheme 2017-03-03T00:08:08Z lipvnip joined #scheme 2017-03-03T00:08:14Z dbmikus quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.7) 2017-03-03T00:08:34Z lipvnip: wasamasa: yeah, i forgot what nick I used. Why is me asking about shadowing a problem? 2017-03-03T00:08:42Z lipvnip: i ask to learn 2017-03-03T00:09:20Z lipvnip: and only if you by "proof" mean my personal experience 2017-03-03T00:10:17Z lipvnip: and since jcowan_ wants (color purple) to fail at compile time, it seems that i'm onto something after all :) 2017-03-03T00:10:24Z wasamasa: I won't bother going into detail about it, last time is plenty for me 2017-03-03T00:10:28Z wasamasa: *plonk* 2017-03-03T00:10:50Z lipvnip: *plonk* indeed 2017-03-03T00:11:10Z lipvnip: you should spend more time thinking about the actual question asked instead of looking at your logs 2017-03-03T00:11:16Z lipvnip: anyhoo 2017-03-03T00:14:03Z davorb quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-03-03T00:14:24Z davorb joined #scheme 2017-03-03T00:24:39Z lambda-11235 joined #scheme 2017-03-03T00:24:56Z lipvnip quit (Quit: argh) 2017-03-03T00:41:12Z adu joined #scheme 2017-03-03T01:02:47Z jerin[m] quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-03-03T01:03:24Z 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2017-03-03T13:12:43Z wasamasa: so I haven't bothered understanding whether it's worth looking into yet 2017-03-03T13:22:12Z masoudd joined #scheme 2017-03-03T13:31:38Z wasamasa: hm, I even get the stack error with ruby 1.9.3 2017-03-03T13:35:30Z lisper: ruby is a kamikaze lisp 2017-03-03T13:35:33Z lisper: doesn't end well 2017-03-03T13:36:43Z lambda-smith joined #scheme 2017-03-03T13:49:04Z badkins joined #scheme 2017-03-03T13:49:58Z cromachina quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-03-03T13:51:53Z pjb: lisper: it's a matzacred lisp. 2017-03-03T13:52:02Z pjb: But despite this, it's is way better than python. 2017-03-03T13:56:10Z lisper: that doesn't say much :) 2017-03-03T13:56:35Z lisper: i'm totally new to lisp, but i already find it beautiful 2017-03-03T13:56:46Z lisper: despite some warts 2017-03-03T13:56:55Z lisper: let's call them beauty spots 2017-03-03T14:05:01Z qu1j0t3: Ruby is a lisp? 2017-03-03T14:06:02Z random-nick joined #scheme 2017-03-03T14:08:32Z nckx quit (Quit: ☭ + 🐧 + GNU Guix) 2017-03-03T14:09:50Z lisper: qu1j0t3: no, but matz (the creator) said he wanted to create a lisp form lesser mortals 2017-03-03T14:10:21Z qu1j0t3 nods 2017-03-03T14:10:25Z nckx joined #scheme 2017-03-03T14:10:28Z lisper: for* 2017-03-03T14:10:32Z lisper: and it kinda is :) 2017-03-03T14:13:59Z qu1j0t3: in what ways? 2017-03-03T14:14:33Z davorb quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-03-03T14:15:33Z davorb joined #scheme 2017-03-03T14:16:00Z edgar-rft joined #scheme 2017-03-03T14:16:19Z lisper: in these ways http://www.randomhacks.net/2005/12/03/why-ruby-is-an-acceptable-lisp/ 2017-03-03T14:17:59Z jeapostrophe joined #scheme 2017-03-03T14:19:05Z nckx quit (Quit: ☭ + 🐧 + GNU Guix) 2017-03-03T14:19:35Z ecraven: the way ruby implements "lambda", I'd hesitate to call it a lisp ;) 2017-03-03T14:20:37Z nckx joined #scheme 2017-03-03T14:21:57Z lisper: blocks are "fun" 2017-03-03T14:22:47Z wasamasa: yeah, blocks, procs and lambdas are all wrong 2017-03-03T14:28:16Z lisper: too much sake while coding there, matz 2017-03-03T14:28:58Z pjb: qu1j0t3: there are a few lisp properties remaining in ruby. For example, it has only expression. This means that you can parenthesize all your expressions in ruby: (begin (a = 1) (b = 1) (if (a == b) then (print "Hello") else (print "nope") end) end) # is ruby code. 2017-03-03T14:29:40Z pjb: I mean: (begin (a = 1); (b = 1); (if (a == b) then (print "Hello") else (print "nope") end) end) 2017-03-03T14:29:57Z davexunit: having written ruby for 5 years for $$, it definitely is not an acceptable lisp. 2017-03-03T14:29:57Z pjb: You have to insert a lot of spurrious characters with ruby, such as ; , end etc. 2017-03-03T14:30:09Z pjb: davexunit: Just define a cons class ;-) 2017-03-03T14:30:16Z qu1j0t3: it seems to me that those parentheses are serving an entirely differnet lexical role than in lisp. And do not create any lists or involve the concept of lists. 2017-03-03T14:30:19Z davexunit: blocks, procs, lambdas are all confusing in their own ways 2017-03-03T14:30:23Z pjb: And really, with parentheses it is very close to being acceptable. 2017-03-03T14:30:23Z davexunit: and none totally satisfactory 2017-03-03T14:30:30Z pjb: But at least it's much better than python. 2017-03-03T14:30:41Z davexunit: right, but that's not really the issue. 2017-03-03T14:30:52Z pjb: qu1j0t3: indeed. But paredit is not totally useless to edit such ruby code. 2017-03-03T14:31:01Z davexunit: it's just way too far from being something that I could write like I write lisp 2017-03-03T14:31:08Z qu1j0t3: no doubt. but i can do this paren hack in most languages. 2017-03-03T14:31:11Z pjb: And you can still basically read those "sxeps" with a real lisp (with a few reader macros). 2017-03-03T14:31:23Z pjb: qu1j0t3: not in languages that have statements. 2017-03-03T14:31:40Z qu1j0t3 sees quite a few semicolons in there. 2017-03-03T14:32:14Z pjb: and commas if you had paremeter lists and stuff. 2017-03-03T14:32:47Z DGASAU quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-03-03T14:34:23Z lisper: pjb: yeah, man, why do they keep churning out new languages with statements? i see no value, so to double-speak 2017-03-03T14:34:47Z DGASAU joined #scheme 2017-03-03T14:37:05Z qu1j0t3: beats me. i just avoid them as much as i can. 2017-03-03T14:37:13Z qu1j0t3: avoidance is really all one can do. 2017-03-03T14:39:05Z masoudd quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-03-03T14:42:19Z dbmikus joined #scheme 2017-03-03T14:42:53Z Riastradh: lisper: What you're asking about is traditionally called `fexprs', and it has some unfortunate consequences for reading and understanding programs. In particular, in (lambda (f) (f (launch-the-missiles))), do the missiles get launched and f get passed the result, or does f get passed a harmless list of one symbol? 2017-03-03T14:43:10Z Riastradh: Can't answer in general: it depends on the value of f. 2017-03-03T14:51:29Z lisper: Riastradh: you may have missed that I asked for a special syntax making it clear that evaluation is lazy. (define (doit $f) ...the actual argument f is quoted by the compiler, so we must eval it here...) 2017-03-03T14:52:12Z lisper: (doit (launch)) turns into (doit '(launch)) because of $f 2017-03-03T14:52:36Z lisper: not saying it is a desirable thing to have, just being curious 2017-03-03T14:53:37Z lisper: it would clearly make for a mechanism that could do the same thing as certain macros (which is why haskell'ers claim lazy eval removes the need for macros, which is of course not true) 2017-03-03T14:54:30Z lisper: i guess this is like fexpr, but i'd like to be able to pick which arguments are passed lazily 2017-03-03T14:55:22Z groscoe quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-03-03T14:55:55Z random-nick: can someone explain to me what's the use of (delay(force (delay ...))) 2017-03-03T14:58:35Z Riastradh: lisper: The problem is not annotating the definition of doit. The problem is identifying the call sites where it is used. 2017-03-03T14:58:46Z Riastradh: lisper: The question I posed is: Was f itself defined with the annotation? 2017-03-03T14:59:23Z dbmikus quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.7) 2017-03-03T14:59:30Z Riastradh: lisper: In particular, consider: (define (g f) (f (launch-the-missiles))) (define (doit x) x) (define (dontit $x) x) 2017-03-03T14:59:33Z lisper: Riastradh: i see no $'s in your example 2017-03-03T14:59:47Z dbmikus joined #scheme 2017-03-03T14:59:57Z Riastradh: lisper: I could do (g doit), or I could do (g dontit). In one case the missiles get launched; in the other, they don't. You can't tell from the definition of g whether missiles are going to get launched or not. 2017-03-03T15:00:55Z lisper: where do you call dontit ? 2017-03-03T15:01:22Z Riastradh: Inside g. 2017-03-03T15:01:42Z lisper: no 2017-03-03T15:02:14Z buzz0763 joined #scheme 2017-03-03T15:02:16Z wasamasa: a problematic usage example of g would be helpful :> 2017-03-03T15:02:21Z Riastradh: Umm...not sure what you're disagreeing with here! 2017-03-03T15:02:31Z lisper: the bogus example 2017-03-03T15:02:50Z wasamasa: or wait, I missed the (g dontit) part 2017-03-03T15:03:10Z Riastradh: Not clear what you're calling bogus. 2017-03-03T15:03:13Z lisper: i see 2017-03-03T15:03:50Z lisper: oh, like wasamasa i missed the (g ... ) calls haha 2017-03-03T15:04:27Z tmtwd quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2017-03-03T15:04:56Z lisper: yes, but this is ok, it's for macro-ism 2017-03-03T15:05:59Z Riastradh: The problem, again, is not that when you write (dontit ...) things get quoted; the problem is that this has far-reaching implications for the entire language, even for parts of programs that don't mention $ or dontit. 2017-03-03T15:08:22Z lisper: Riastradh: i understand the problem. Thanks for explaining. 2017-03-03T15:08:57Z lisper: once such a function is in a higher-order context, it falls apart 2017-03-03T15:09:40Z `0x00` quit (Quit: leaving) 2017-03-03T15:10:11Z `0x00` joined #scheme 2017-03-03T15:10:24Z kammd quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2017-03-03T15:12:20Z lisper: Riastradh: was the idea of fexpr to replace macros? or are macros more powerful? 2017-03-03T15:12:40Z lisper: (in the sense haskell claims lazy eval removes the need for macros somewhat) 2017-03-03T15:14:58Z gwatt: Do they? That doesn't make a lot of sense to me. 2017-03-03T15:15:11Z u0_a61 joined #scheme 2017-03-03T15:17:14Z lisper: gwatt: they do. http://newartisans.com/2009/03/hello-haskell-goodbye-lisp/ 2017-03-03T15:17:32Z lisper: they admit there's still some value to macros, but that lazy eval handles 99% of the cases or so 2017-03-03T15:17:47Z lisper: not sure i agree, but interesting viewpoint 2017-03-03T15:18:11Z lisper: (they're clearly leaving read-macros out of the picture) 2017-03-03T15:20:45Z lisper quit (Quit: bounced) 2017-03-03T15:25:37Z random-nick quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-03-03T15:31:47Z gwatt: Or any kind of macros that aren't about conditionals 2017-03-03T15:36:06Z random-nick joined #scheme 2017-03-03T15:36:17Z u0_a61 quit (Quit: leaving) 2017-03-03T15:39:42Z Riastradh: Can't make new binding forms with lazy evaluation. 2017-03-03T15:42:32Z manualcrank joined #scheme 2017-03-03T15:42:32Z Khisanth quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-03-03T15:46:04Z wasamasa: who would possibly need more than let 2017-03-03T15:50:10Z Riastradh: Entitled Marxist brats, that's who! 2017-03-03T15:52:16Z jeapostr1phe joined #scheme 2017-03-03T15:54:58Z jeapostrophe quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2017-03-03T15:55:55Z Khisanth joined #scheme 2017-03-03T16:01:15Z nckx quit (Quit: ☭ + 🐧 + GNU Guix) 2017-03-03T16:01:40Z ertes quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-03-03T16:13:25Z sethalves quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2017-03-03T16:13:40Z Riastradh quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-03-03T16:14:41Z davorb quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-03-03T16:15:13Z davorb joined #scheme 2017-03-03T16:20:05Z `0x00` quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-03-03T16:29:57Z dcluna quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-03-03T16:30:24Z dcluna joined #scheme 2017-03-03T16:32:41Z nckx joined #scheme 2017-03-03T16:34:15Z random-nick quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-03-03T16:37:44Z nckx quit (Quit: ☭ + 🐧 + GNU Guix) 2017-03-03T16:56:53Z kuribas joined #scheme 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Is there an efficient way to do that? 2017-03-04T13:15:53Z jmd joined #scheme 2017-03-04T13:36:50Z cpper: ugh 2017-03-04T13:37:25Z cpper: (copy ofc 2017-03-04T13:37:49Z cpper quit (Quit: leaving) 2017-03-04T14:10:26Z jaziz joined #scheme 2017-03-04T14:12:14Z Menche quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-03-04T14:12:45Z Menche joined #scheme 2017-03-04T14:13:31Z cibs quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-03-04T14:15:27Z cibs joined #scheme 2017-03-04T14:16:32Z davorb quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-03-04T14:17:09Z davorb joined #scheme 2017-03-04T14:21:58Z cky quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2017-03-04T14:27:03Z badkins joined #scheme 2017-03-04T14:48:02Z realcse is now known as esclear 2017-03-04T14:49:59Z cky joined #scheme 2017-03-04T15:00:52Z jmd` joined #scheme 2017-03-04T15:25:44Z terpri quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-03-04T15:28:54Z terpri joined #scheme 2017-03-04T15:36:56Z jaziz quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-03-04T15:46:32Z niklasl quit (Quit: Nettalk6 - www.ntalk.de) 2017-03-04T15:49:53Z niklasl joined #scheme 2017-03-04T16:08:58Z manualcrank joined #scheme 2017-03-04T16:14:40Z shymega quit (Quit: So long, and thanks for all the talking doors.) 2017-03-04T16:15:31Z shymega joined #scheme 2017-03-04T16:16:37Z davorb quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-03-04T16:16:49Z davorb joined #scheme 2017-03-04T16:26:12Z deank joined #scheme 2017-03-04T16:30:19Z shymega quit (Quit: So long, and thanks for all the talking doors.) 2017-03-04T16:31:11Z shymega joined #scheme 2017-03-04T16:35:53Z safe joined #scheme 2017-03-04T16:45:54Z jmd quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-03-04T17:05:43Z alezost joined #scheme 2017-03-04T17:09:36Z jmd` is now known as jmd 2017-03-04T17:16:13Z Menche quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-03-04T17:16:29Z Menche joined #scheme 2017-03-04T17:17:16Z TheLemonMan joined #scheme 2017-03-04T17:23:55Z jeapostrophe quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-03-04T17:24:02Z DGASAU joined #scheme 2017-03-04T17:54:08Z ertesx joined #scheme 2017-03-04T17:57:34Z ertes quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-03-04T17:57:34Z ertesx is now known as ertes 2017-03-04T18:16:48Z davorb quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-03-04T18:17:30Z davorb joined #scheme 2017-03-04T18:18:00Z jeapostrophe joined #scheme 2017-03-04T18:18:00Z jeapostrophe quit (Changing host) 2017-03-04T18:18:00Z jeapostrophe joined #scheme 2017-03-04T18:50:01Z lritter quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-03-04T19:17:50Z JoshS quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2017-03-04T19:35:58Z TheLemonMan quit (Quit: "It's now safe to turn off your computer.") 2017-03-04T19:38:09Z nanoz quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-03-04T19:58:18Z enderby joined #scheme 2017-03-04T19:59:28Z sethalves joined #scheme 2017-03-04T20:00:35Z daviid joined #scheme 2017-03-04T20:07:39Z sz0 joined #scheme 2017-03-04T20:08:56Z alezost quit (Quit: I live in GuixSD and Emacs ) 2017-03-04T20:15:57Z boycottg00gle joined #scheme 2017-03-04T20:16:53Z davorb quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-03-04T20:17:10Z davorb joined #scheme 2017-03-04T20:30:07Z JoshS joined #scheme 2017-03-04T20:32:04Z bjz joined #scheme 2017-03-04T20:34:41Z fantazo joined #scheme 2017-03-04T20:53:11Z boycottg00gle quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-03-04T21:01:56Z mekeor joined #scheme 2017-03-04T21:02:23Z mekeor: are 'symbols in scheme like *pointers? 2017-03-04T21:02:48Z wasamasa: symbol equality is done via pointer check 2017-03-04T21:03:00Z wasamasa: that is, two symbols with the same name must be equal 2017-03-04T21:05:02Z wasamasa: conceptually, symbols are identifiers 2017-03-04T21:05:32Z wasamasa: you can obtain them as is by not evaluating them (like with quote or in a macro), otherwise their value is looked up if you try evaluating them 2017-03-04T21:06:06Z wasamasa: we typically speak of variables to avoid confusion :P 2017-03-04T21:06:19Z noethics joined #scheme 2017-03-04T21:07:29Z emma__ joined #scheme 2017-03-04T21:08:35Z Vivek___ joined #scheme 2017-03-04T21:08:57Z mlaine_ joined #scheme 2017-03-04T21:13:19Z ertes quit (*.net *.split) 2017-03-04T21:13:20Z davexunit quit (*.net *.split) 2017-03-04T21:13:20Z gabot quit (*.net *.split) 2017-03-04T21:13:20Z mlaine quit (*.net *.split) 2017-03-04T21:13:20Z mg quit (*.net *.split) 2017-03-04T21:13:20Z Vivek quit (*.net *.split) 2017-03-04T21:13:20Z snits` quit (*.net *.split) 2017-03-04T21:13:20Z emma quit (*.net *.split) 2017-03-04T21:13:20Z gf3 quit (*.net *.split) 2017-03-04T21:14:23Z cibs quit (*.net *.split) 2017-03-04T21:14:23Z jonaslund quit (*.net *.split) 2017-03-04T21:14:23Z DerGuteMoritz quit (*.net *.split) 2017-03-04T21:14:24Z eMBee quit (*.net *.split) 2017-03-04T21:15:03Z mekeor: i can imagine 'foo to be a symbol but i don't really understand how '(foo bar) can be a symbol. i'm not sure why 2017-03-04T21:15:27Z DerGuteMoritz joined #scheme 2017-03-04T21:17:09Z wasamasa: it isn't 2017-03-04T21:17:17Z wasamasa: quote just delays evaluation 2017-03-04T21:17:45Z wasamasa: http://emacs.stackexchange.com/a/28948/10 2017-03-04T21:18:38Z cibs joined #scheme 2017-03-04T21:18:38Z jonaslund joined #scheme 2017-03-04T21:18:43Z mekeor: we're in #scheme, not #emacs 2017-03-04T21:18:47Z wasamasa: doesn't matter 2017-03-04T21:18:56Z wasamasa: quote works the same way in elisp, scheme and CL 2017-03-04T21:19:04Z wasamasa: heck, even clojure 2017-03-04T21:19:07Z mekeor: okay, cool 2017-03-04T21:23:57Z X-Scale joined #scheme 2017-03-04T21:27:05Z gravicappa quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-03-04T21:30:43Z mekeor: why is there both ` and ' when ` could be enough? 2017-03-04T21:30:57Z wasamasa: that's the route picolisp went 2017-03-04T21:31:04Z jmd quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-03-04T21:31:16Z wasamasa: you don't need ` to unquote 2017-03-04T21:32:31Z mekeor: oh, yeah. that's the part you didn't mention in that answer. so, how "to construct the list manually from quoted and not quoted symbols"? 2017-03-04T21:33:07Z mekeor: or were you reffering to `list'? 2017-03-04T21:33:18Z wasamasa: I was referring to list :P 2017-03-04T21:33:40Z mekeor: so, is list not needed either? :D 2017-03-04T21:33:44Z wasamasa: you can get a bit fancier by using cons and append 2017-03-04T21:33:50Z noethics quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2017-03-04T21:34:02Z wasamasa: I prefer (list foo) over `(,foo), that's all 2017-03-04T21:34:58Z lambda-smith quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2017-03-04T21:35:15Z wasamasa: you can see macro definitions not using quasiquote/backquote in code where they aren't available yet 2017-03-04T21:36:37Z mekeor: assuming foo has the value 42 in the environment, both (list foo) and `(,foo) evaluate to '(42), right? 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ZZZzzz…) 2017-03-05T00:39:20Z daviid quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-03-05T00:40:16Z lambda-11235 joined #scheme 2017-03-05T00:51:06Z groscoe quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-03-05T01:45:02Z daviid joined #scheme 2017-03-05T01:59:50Z talivp joined #scheme 2017-03-05T01:59:52Z talivp: hey all 2017-03-05T01:59:54Z talivp: wassup 2017-03-05T02:00:46Z talivp: is it stricly true that ' delays evaluation? if that was true, '(1 2 3) when evaluated would treat 1 as a function 2017-03-05T02:01:03Z talivp: so it seems like '(1 2 3) turns into '(list 1 2 3) 2017-03-05T02:01:12Z qu1j0t3: no... 2017-03-05T02:01:13Z talivp: when evaluted 2017-03-05T02:01:33Z qu1j0t3: '(1 2 3) is the result of evaluating (list 1 2 3) 2017-03-05T02:01:34Z talivp: so basically '(1 2 3) turns it into a list of symbols when eval'ed 2017-03-05T02:01:41Z qu1j0t3: '(1 2 3) is not '(list 1 2 3) 2017-03-05T02:01:43Z cromachina: type '(list 1 2 3) in and see what happens 2017-03-05T02:01:47Z talivp: qu1j0t3: right, so that's not just delaying evaluation 2017-03-05T02:01:50Z qu1j0t3: both of these are literally what they look like. 2017-03-05T02:02:12Z qu1j0t3: talivp: It doesn't need to produce tht result BY evaluating (list 1 2 3) 2017-03-05T02:02:13Z talivp: i understand. so saying ' just delays eval is not entirely true 2017-03-05T02:02:18Z qu1j0t3: it just happens to be the same result 2017-03-05T02:02:34Z qu1j0t3: talivp: it's not a bad approximation to the truth. 2017-03-05T02:02:40Z talivp: it kinda is 2017-03-05T02:02:42Z qu1j0t3: though i don't know where you got the 'delays evaluation' wording from. 2017-03-05T02:02:53Z cromachina: ' says "treat the following s-expression as data" 2017-03-05T02:03:12Z talivp: because if (car x) gets the first item, then (eval '(car x)) would do the same if ' delaying was true 2017-03-05T02:03:13Z qu1j0t3: talivp: It doesn't evaluate anything. 2017-03-05T02:03:28Z qu1j0t3: you're overthinking it. look at what cromachina said 2017-03-05T02:03:28Z talivp: so something is fishy with that statement 2017-03-05T02:03:32Z talivp: i am not 2017-03-05T02:03:40Z qu1j0t3: talivp: it doesn't "evaluate" anything. 2017-03-05T02:03:57Z talivp: i'm refering to the claim ' delays evaluation 2017-03-05T02:04:03Z qu1j0t3: where is that claim? 2017-03-05T02:04:05Z cromachina: who claimed that? 2017-03-05T02:04:10Z talivp: earlier today 2017-03-05T02:04:22Z talivp: 2017-03-04T21:17:17Z wasamasa: quote just delays evaluation 2017-03-05T02:04:31Z qu1j0t3: take it up with them 2017-03-05T02:04:40Z talivp: is wasamasa a knuckle head which i can safely ignore then? 2017-03-05T02:05:17Z cromachina: no, he probably just used a metaphor which makes sense in a particular context 2017-03-05T02:05:37Z talivp: the only context is this question: mekeor: i can imagine 'foo to be a symbol but i don't really understand how '(foo bar) can be a symbol. i'm not sure why 2017-03-05T02:05:44Z talivp: his answer? 2017-03-05T02:05:51Z talivp: quote just delays evaluation 2017-03-05T02:06:24Z talivp: unsatisfactory explanations of what ' actually does 2017-03-05T02:06:44Z talivp: "just returns the ast node" sounds more like it 2017-03-05T02:06:52Z talivp: but that leaks internals 2017-03-05T02:06:52Z Menche quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-03-05T02:07:04Z cromachina: it's not the AST, it's just data 2017-03-05T02:07:17Z talivp: same same in lisp 2017-03-05T02:07:28Z cromachina: it just happens to look like code, and can be treated like code when given to eval 2017-03-05T02:07:41Z talivp: sure 2017-03-05T02:08:23Z talivp: but '(car lst) would then require funcall or apply or something like that? 2017-03-05T02:08:36Z talivp: not eval? i guess it all depends on lisp dialect 2017-03-05T02:09:11Z cromachina: in most lisps, that represents some data, and eval would be the typical mechanism for interpreting it or compiling it 2017-03-05T02:09:33Z talivp: so what would (eval '(car lst)) do then? 2017-03-05T02:09:39Z talivp: call car on that list? 2017-03-05T02:10:15Z cromachina: effectively, yes 2017-03-05T02:11:00Z talivp: but it could also treat '(car lst) as two symbols, CAR and LST ? 2017-03-05T02:11:17Z talivp: say, (append lst '(car lst)) ? 2017-03-05T02:12:01Z cromachina: it would treat it as function application 2017-03-05T02:12:14Z talivp: huh? 2017-03-05T02:12:27Z talivp: '(car lst) on it's own is not 2017-03-05T02:12:32Z talivp: its* 2017-03-05T02:13:19Z talivp: in racket, the above appends CAR and LST to lst 2017-03-05T02:13:24Z talivp: as i expected 2017-03-05T02:14:05Z cromachina: sorry i was referring to the eval above your append 2017-03-05T02:14:33Z talivp: so i guess ' when applied to a list creates a list of symbols, nothing more, which is treated as function application when fed to eval, but treated as a list when fed to append 2017-03-05T02:15:10Z cromachina: it's treated as a list by eval too. eval and append are both plain-old-functions 2017-03-05T02:15:40Z cromachina: eval's side effect is that it takes this list and effects the current environment by looking at it 2017-03-05T02:16:08Z talivp: by looking at it? 2017-03-05T02:16:22Z talivp: that doesn't sound precise 2017-03-05T02:16:23Z cromachina: however it may interpret the given s-expression 2017-03-05T02:16:36Z talivp: may? by what criteria? 2017-03-05T02:16:48Z cromachina: it's not precise because eval is implemented differently everywhere, but the effect is the same 2017-03-05T02:17:03Z cibs quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-03-05T02:17:04Z talivp: if the effect is the same, why is it not precise? 2017-03-05T02:17:20Z talivp: this is somewhat muddy 2017-03-05T02:17:28Z cromachina: it may take the list and compile it to machine code, or it may walk the list one symbol at a time interpreting each as it goes 2017-03-05T02:18:03Z talivp: so on some lisps, (eval '(car lst)) may call car, while others may do something else? 2017-03-05T02:18:37Z cromachina: let's say at this very moment, they all get the same result 2017-03-05T02:18:49Z talivp: huh 2017-03-05T02:19:03Z cibs joined #scheme 2017-03-05T02:19:06Z talivp: cromachina: does it call car or not? 2017-03-05T02:19:15Z cromachina: it calls car on lst 2017-03-05T02:19:40Z talivp: cromachina: so you're saying (eval '(car '(a b))) gives me b? 2017-03-05T02:19:58Z cromachina: it should give you a 2017-03-05T02:20:07Z talivp: yeah, i meant a 2017-03-05T02:20:08Z talivp: but... 2017-03-05T02:20:15Z talivp: drracket gives me {car {quote {a b}}} 2017-03-05T02:20:46Z cromachina: what language are you using? 2017-03-05T02:20:52Z cromachina: drracket comes with a few 2017-03-05T02:21:20Z talivp: clisp gives me a 2017-03-05T02:21:24Z cromachina: because when i type that into racket, i get what you expected 2017-03-05T02:22:10Z talivp: cromachina: language is scheme 2017-03-05T02:22:19Z talivp: i get this when using the REPL, maybe that's something else 2017-03-05T02:23:00Z talivp: ok, so i guess the answer is "it depends" 2017-03-05T02:23:16Z jeapostrophe quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-03-05T02:23:51Z snits` quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-03-05T02:24:20Z cromachina: well, it should be the same across all schemes of the same standard, of which racket is not a scheme. and common lisp has its own standards too 2017-03-05T02:24:46Z talivp: ok, tried 3 languages now, they give me a, 'a and {car {quote {a b}}} 2017-03-05T02:24:49Z talivp: i am not amused 2017-03-05T02:24:53Z snits` joined #scheme 2017-03-05T02:25:03Z cromachina: well you said it yourself '3 languages' 2017-03-05T02:25:03Z akkad quit (Excess Flood) 2017-03-05T02:25:14Z talivp: "3 lisps" 2017-03-05T02:25:16Z cromachina: if you did that in javascript would you expect the same thing? 2017-03-05T02:25:20Z talivp: "3 lisps" 2017-03-05T02:25:34Z talivp: literally the same expression 2017-03-05T02:25:39Z talivp: three different results 2017-03-05T02:25:43Z talivp: in three different lisps 2017-03-05T02:25:50Z cromachina: 3 different lisps, only marginally related 2017-03-05T02:26:01Z talivp: sure, point stands 2017-03-05T02:26:07Z cromachina: what point is that? 2017-03-05T02:26:09Z aeth: In fact, clisp deviates from the CL standard in a few places, so you could wind up in a situation where you get varying results within CLs (probably not there, though) 2017-03-05T02:26:15Z talivp: this eval + quote business 2017-03-05T02:26:29Z talivp: aeth: "interesting" :) 2017-03-05T02:26:44Z akkad joined #scheme 2017-03-05T02:27:15Z talivp: do schemers scheme to confuse maybe? 2017-03-05T02:27:19Z cromachina: what im saying is that scheme, common lisp, and racket all follow a different set of standards and are only related in some general ideas 2017-03-05T02:27:40Z talivp: that much is clear by now 2017-03-05T02:27:50Z Menche joined #scheme 2017-03-05T02:28:05Z aeth: And those are all fairly related Lisps. There are other Lisps that are more out there like Clojure and PicoLisp and Arc. 2017-03-05T02:28:06Z talivp: so this quotation business isn't all that clear 2017-03-05T02:29:20Z talivp: aeth: i tried clojure as my first lisp, but i drowned in irrelevant details and namespaces 2017-03-05T02:29:41Z talivp: this racket thing will get me going i think 2017-03-05T02:30:06Z aeth: There's also Shen, Emacs Lisp, Lisp Flavored Erlang, and Hy. And these are just the notable Lisps. 2017-03-05T02:30:25Z bjz joined #scheme 2017-03-05T02:30:31Z talivp: right 2017-03-05T02:30:40Z cromachina: to summarize: in general, a lisp dialect treats a section of text as data when you declare it quoted (however this is done), and eval takes some arbitrary s-expression (and maybe additional parameters like an environment) treats it like code and runs it. consult with your target lisp's documentation on quoting and evaluating for specifics 2017-03-05T02:30:51Z talivp: thanks for the input guys 2017-03-05T02:31:16Z cromachina: no problem 2017-03-05T02:31:16Z talivp quit (Quit: leaving) 2017-03-05T02:32:11Z aeth: For Scheme, the two most popular are afaik Guile and Chicken. Racket is not Scheme anymore (it used to be "PLT Scheme"), but it is very close. Decently related to Scheme is Common Lisp (taking some ideas from Scheme, but a lisp-2 and a much larger language, with backwards-compatible names instead of the more modern Scheme names) 2017-03-05T02:33:03Z aeth: In practice, though, Common Lisp code winds up fairly different because it doesn't have guaranteed tail recursion optimization, it is a lisp-2, and it has a different macro system. 2017-03-05T02:33:11Z cromachina: he already left :( 2017-03-05T02:33:20Z aeth: Yeah but I wasn't going to waste all that typing I just did 2017-03-05T02:33:24Z cromachina: lol 2017-03-05T02:34:01Z aeth: Oh, and Common Lisp has more "generic" stuff (e.g. OOP, functions that work on any sequence type, etc.) than Scheme. 2017-03-05T02:34:12Z aeth: And then outside of these closely related Lisps, they can get *way* out there. 2017-03-05T02:34:49Z aeth: (Emacs Lisp is basically just an outdated pre-Common Lisp traditional Lisp, though, so it's not as out there as Lisps can go.) 2017-03-05T02:34:57Z ekmartin quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-03-05T02:36:13Z cromachina: i read that emacs was eventually going to switch to guile 2017-03-05T02:36:17Z cromachina: i wonder when that will happen 2017-03-05T02:37:51Z aeth: Guile was supposed to be the universal GNU scripting language since like... almost 20 years now. 2017-03-05T02:38:23Z aeth: Perhaps over 20 years. Guile itself is 24 years old according to Wikipedia. 2017-03-05T02:38:58Z aeth: The real question imo is if GNU Guile will be that language (including in GNU Emacs) before or after GNU Hurd is released. 2017-03-05T02:39:21Z jeapostrophe joined #scheme 2017-03-05T02:40:37Z bjz quit (Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2017-03-05T02:43:27Z aeth: Someone could always do what Neovim did to Vim and have a Neoemacs (although that name is probably taken). I suspect that would be the only way to actually get a major change this decade. 2017-03-05T02:44:13Z jeapostrophe quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2017-03-05T02:44:23Z bjz joined #scheme 2017-03-05T03:08:56Z pjb: Not needed anymore. In emacs 25, you can implement plugins as shared libraries. 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Wasting typing is #java without an IDE 2017-03-05T10:43:18Z aeth: wasamasa: I started using emacs in 2010 or so, so I missed xemacs almost completely. RIP xemacs 2017-03-05T10:44:06Z aeth: wasamasa: you should start a yemacs 2017-03-05T10:44:10Z wasamasa: lol 2017-03-05T10:44:55Z aeth: (and in case you're wondering what I used on Linux from 2006 to 2010... I really did get away with just using gedit and nano) 2017-03-05T10:45:12Z wasamasa: that would be confused too easily with ymacs 2017-03-05T10:46:39Z jeapostrophe joined #scheme 2017-03-05T10:46:39Z jeapostrophe quit (Changing host) 2017-03-05T10:46:39Z jeapostrophe joined #scheme 2017-03-05T10:46:49Z aeth: I hated syntax highlighting, auto-indenting, and paren-completion for a long time... too long. Now I can't code without emacs. 2017-03-05T10:46:57Z wasamasa: mhh 2017-03-05T10:47:13Z wasamasa: I'm looking forward to how I'm still using emacs a decade later 2017-03-05T10:47:48Z wasamasa: while everyone will have forgotten about remacs and what have you 2017-03-05T10:48:33Z aeth: well, someone should get creative and name their Scheme emacs backwards 2017-03-05T10:48:41Z aeth: scame? 2017-03-05T10:48:50Z aeth: Fits the Scheme/Racket/etc. naming scheme 2017-03-05T10:49:30Z aeth: 'scammer' is almost 'remacs' backwards 2017-03-05T10:49:50Z wasamasa: :O 2017-03-05T10:50:12Z aeth: use a backwards e for extra effect 2017-03-05T10:51:33Z jeapostrophe quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-03-05T10:53:32Z X-Scale: I wonder if Schemacs exists 2017-03-05T10:53:39Z wasamasa: edwin is a thing 2017-03-05T10:53:55Z wasamasa: there's a wishlist item on the CHICKEN wiki to port it to their dialect 2017-03-05T10:54:07Z wasamasa: seems like lots of busywork for little gain :> 2017-03-05T10:54:19Z wasamasa: it would make more sense to work on guilemacs instead 2017-03-05T10:54:41Z wasamasa: or write something radically different 2017-03-05T10:56:23Z edgar-rft: X-Scale: shemacs is emacs' mother 2017-03-05T11:05:28Z jeapostrophe joined #scheme 2017-03-05T11:15:50Z jaziz quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-03-05T11:21:32Z jmd joined #scheme 2017-03-05T11:36:37Z fantazo quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-03-05T11:59:49Z jaziz joined #scheme 2017-03-05T12:01:43Z bjz_ joined #scheme 2017-03-05T12:02:33Z bjz quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-03-05T12:08:27Z kuribas joined #scheme 2017-03-05T12:18:29Z davorb quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-03-05T12:18:44Z davorb joined #scheme 2017-03-05T12:37:05Z bjz joined #scheme 2017-03-05T12:37:31Z bjz_ quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-03-05T12:39:58Z jeapostrophe quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-03-05T12:52:05Z terpri quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-03-05T12:52:35Z terpri joined #scheme 2017-03-05T12:56:28Z deank quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-03-05T13:03:39Z jeapostrophe joined #scheme 2017-03-05T13:17:26Z oleo joined #scheme 2017-03-05T13:17:27Z oleo quit (Changing host) 2017-03-05T13:17:27Z oleo joined #scheme 2017-03-05T13:20:03Z jaziz quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-03-05T13:27:39Z VermillionAzure joined #scheme 2017-03-05T13:27:44Z VermillionAzure: Hello? 2017-03-05T13:30:38Z wasamasa hides 2017-03-05T13:34:41Z VermillionAzure: Hello 2017-03-05T13:34:49Z VermillionAzure: I am about to email the R7RS chair about a question 2017-03-05T13:34:57Z VermillionAzure: Where is the definition for `(define` in R7RS? 2017-03-05T13:35:18Z VermillionAzure: It's neither defined in the primitive or derived expression types sections, and instead has its own section. 2017-03-05T13:37:25Z wasamasa: section 5.3 2017-03-05T13:41:37Z VermillionAzure: wasamasa: Yes. Of course. But it doesn't define how it is defined in terms of X Y Z 2017-03-05T13:42:16Z wasamasa: it isn't 2017-03-05T13:42:42Z wasamasa: definition of define in terms of primitives wouldn't work as you need to distinguish between a top-level and an internal definition 2017-03-05T13:42:43Z VermillionAzure: Hmmm 2017-03-05T13:42:55Z VermillionAzure: So... how do you implement it? 2017-03-05T13:43:09Z VermillionAzure: I guess, from looking at just the standard. 2017-03-05T13:43:14Z wasamasa: the subsections have suggestions for that 2017-03-05T13:44:05Z VermillionAzure: wasamasa: I can't really find them. I'm missing something. 2017-03-05T13:44:14Z VermillionAzure: So the section that's just on define is... 2017-03-05T13:44:21Z wasamasa hands VermillionAzure reading glasses 2017-03-05T13:44:33Z VermillionAzure: wasamasa: it's just 5.3.1 and 5.3.2 2017-03-05T13:44:40Z VermillionAzure: They just kind of say, "yeah they're different" 2017-03-05T13:44:48Z wasamasa: they also describe how they're different 2017-03-05T13:44:56Z VermillionAzure: But I did C^F on the document and I couldn't find much else 2017-03-05T13:45:03Z wasamasa: m( 2017-03-05T13:45:07Z VermillionAzure: The rest is define-syntax stuff and not dealing with the define primitive 2017-03-05T13:45:15Z VermillionAzure: also how do you do that * EXPRESSION 2017-03-05T13:45:25Z VermillionAzure: like * I hands me reading glasses 2017-03-05T13:45:35Z wasamasa: I'll let you figure that out yourself 2017-03-05T13:46:52Z VermillionAzure: wasamasa: But you see what I mean, right? 2017-03-05T13:46:57Z wasamasa: nope 2017-03-05T13:47:09Z VermillionAzure: It doesn't categorize it as a primitive or a derived expression. So what is it? 2017-03-05T13:47:20Z VermillionAzure: A primitive? Derived? Macro? Hm 2017-03-05T13:47:31Z VermillionAzure: I... want to say it's a macro but I dunno 2017-03-05T13:48:35Z wasamasa: built-in syntax, treated as part of the program structure 2017-03-05T13:48:53Z VermillionAzure: wasamasa: Right. But if it's built-in, why is it not specified as a primitive expression? 2017-03-05T13:49:16Z VermillionAzure: If you cannot `(set!)` variables that haven't been defined yet... Well, it seems pretty important 2017-03-05T13:49:37Z wasamasa: because it's listed along with import, define-syntax and others in the program structure chapter 2017-03-05T13:50:03Z VermillionAzure: wasamasa: I guess my issue is just with how it's written and specified 2017-03-05T13:50:25Z VermillionAzure: Meh. But thanks 2017-03-05T13:50:25Z wasamasa wiggles eyebrows dramatically 2017-03-05T13:50:37Z VermillionAzure: is it /emote 2017-03-05T13:51:02Z wasamasa: I'll let you read the IRC standards to figure that one out :> 2017-03-05T13:51:32Z VermillionAzure left #scheme 2017-03-05T13:51:41Z VermillionAzure joined #scheme 2017-03-05T13:51:44Z VermillionAzure: Wow 2017-03-05T13:51:50Z VermillionAzure: I ran a command that made me leave the room 2017-03-05T13:52:05Z wasamasa: if you've read the IRC standards, that wouldn't have happened 2017-03-05T13:53:13Z foojin joined #scheme 2017-03-05T13:53:17Z VermillionAzure: ugh 2017-03-05T13:53:19Z VermillionAzure: Well anyways 2017-03-05T13:53:27Z VermillionAzure: Hi I'm implementing R7RS Scheme in C++ 2017-03-05T13:53:30Z VermillionAzure: or... gonna try I guess. 2017-03-05T13:55:30Z wasamasa: looking at CHICKEN's implementation of define, it's inextricably weaved into its modules support 2017-03-05T13:56:01Z VermillionAzure: wasamasa: Link? 2017-03-05T13:56:15Z wasamasa: same with define-syntax and import and a few more from that program structure section 2017-03-05T13:56:37Z VermillionAzure: wasamasa: Yeah, the way we have `(define)` right now is basically using C++'s map structure 2017-03-05T13:56:38Z wasamasa: maybe there is a reason for this?!? 2017-03-05T13:56:56Z VermillionAzure: And then (set!) might just be a special case of our model for define 2017-03-05T13:57:02Z wasamasa: anyway, I don't consider the structure of r7rs more important than what it specifies 2017-03-05T13:57:15Z VermillionAzure: wasamasa: I guess so. 2017-03-05T13:57:22Z wasamasa: the question of the why isn't nearly as interesting as the how :> 2017-03-05T13:57:31Z VermillionAzure: But I'm primarily concerned because we need to choose how we're going to implement it. 2017-03-05T13:57:35Z wasamasa: we? 2017-03-05T13:57:40Z VermillionAzure: Oh yeah 2017-03-05T13:57:44Z VermillionAzure: I'm the project lead 2017-03-05T13:57:53Z VermillionAzure: So I'm just doing some late night research right now 2017-03-05T13:58:53Z wasamasa: if you want to study a clean scheme implementation, take a look at scheme48 2017-03-05T14:00:58Z VermillionAzure: wasamasa: Thank you. 2017-03-05T14:01:16Z wasamasa: it even has a vcxproj, lol 2017-03-05T14:05:19Z VermillionAzure: wasamasa: Hm not so very clear 2017-03-05T14:06:59Z wasamasa: it appears to be in scheme/bcomp/syntax.scm 2017-03-05T14:08:48Z jeapostrophe quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-03-05T14:09:27Z nanoz joined #scheme 2017-03-05T14:09:27Z nanoz quit (Changing host) 2017-03-05T14:09:27Z nanoz joined #scheme 2017-03-05T14:09:59Z VermillionAzure: wasamasa: Oh that's just screwed up 2017-03-05T14:17:48Z cromachina: i'm also writing a lisp: https://github.com/cromachina/crowlisp 2017-03-05T14:18:01Z cromachina: mainly for enjoyment though.. 2017-03-05T14:18:48Z VermillionAzure: cromachina: Where's the parser? 2017-03-05T14:18:48Z davorb quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-03-05T14:19:14Z cromachina: read* functions 2017-03-05T14:19:27Z davorb joined #scheme 2017-03-05T14:19:45Z cromachina: still in progress, but it will be used to bootstrap another parser in the language 2017-03-05T14:20:15Z cromachina: i want to do everything in my heap, even stack frames 2017-03-05T14:20:27Z cromachina: kinda like how the parrot VM works 2017-03-05T14:21:44Z VermillionAzure: Oh. 2017-03-05T14:21:53Z VermillionAzure: Man... I realize how much I just don't like C. 2017-03-05T14:22:19Z chouchou joined #scheme 2017-03-05T14:22:30Z chouchou: hi, anyone familiar with lambdanative? 2017-03-05T14:38:36Z Fare joined #scheme 2017-03-05T14:41:01Z oleo quit (Quit: Verlassend) 2017-03-05T15:05:31Z jeapostrophe joined #scheme 2017-03-05T15:10:36Z jeapostrophe quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-03-05T15:28:03Z groscoe joined #scheme 2017-03-05T15:30:37Z jeapostrophe joined #scheme 2017-03-05T15:31:09Z VermillionAzure quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-03-05T15:36:00Z jeapostrophe quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-03-05T15:40:05Z jonaslund: cromachina: what's stopping you ? 2017-03-05T15:45:19Z jonaslund: cromachina: reading your notes, it's not that hard to program a C friendly GC that lets you easily call between C,etc 2017-03-05T15:46:45Z jonaslund: (with the C code accomodating the GC) 2017-03-05T15:49:05Z cromachina: yeah i would end up having something like the boehm collector 2017-03-05T15:49:11Z jonaslund: no need 2017-03-05T15:49:14Z jonaslund: you can make a cooperative one 2017-03-05T15:49:15Z cromachina: although i have a mechanism now that allows for pinning 2017-03-05T15:49:47Z cromachina: it works fine as is, but my issue are the recursive functions like equal, print, and read 2017-03-05T15:50:54Z jonaslund: I usually do something like: scm_obj * someCFun(struct scm_obj ** prevstack,...otherargs..) { scm_obj *shadow[usedobjcount+2]; shadow[0]=(scm_obj*)prevstack; shadow[1]=GCMAGIC; 2017-03-05T15:51:22Z jonaslund: then i can use shadow[2] ... for references from C to language objects 2017-03-05T15:51:46Z jonaslund: and pass the TOP of the shadowstack (so if i don't use every available slot in the shadow stack at all times i just pass an ptr to the last used one) 2017-03-05T15:52:24Z jonaslund: now.. if the GC needs to collect it just traces the shadow stack, marking/moving/etc pointers as it traces the shadow stack 2017-03-05T15:52:42Z jonaslund: everytime it encounters a GCMAGIC it jumps to the previous stack frame (or if the prev is null it terminates) 2017-03-05T15:52:52Z cromachina: oh, that's interesting 2017-03-05T15:53:06Z cromachina: i could get rid of the pinning mechanism i have with this 2017-03-05T15:53:09Z cromachina: and do everything on the stack 2017-03-05T15:53:32Z jonaslund: yeah, it's quite fast also. only overhead is 2 word writes and one extra passed argument 2017-03-05T15:56:27Z cromachina: and a call to this would look like.. someCFun(&shadow, ...); 2017-03-05T15:57:12Z cromachina: and i would have to pass that to the allocator too 2017-03-05T15:58:59Z jonaslund: yep, "everywhere" 2017-03-05T15:59:16Z cromachina: it's strange i didn't think of that as well, since i kinda approached values the same way for the 'gethash' function 2017-03-05T16:01:34Z jonaslund: I have no idea how many other variants i've tried before i started using this :) 2017-03-05T16:01:41Z cromachina: although i still want to bootstrap the base functionality.. not as interested in the chicken method of building up C frames in CPS style and longjumping to the bottom 2017-03-05T16:02:34Z cromachina: your idea is sound, what scheme are you working on? 2017-03-05T16:05:23Z jonaslund: Just been hacking on a small tracing thing myself lately 2017-03-05T16:06:04Z jonaslund: (tracing jit) 2017-03-05T16:06:17Z cromachina: neat 2017-03-05T16:11:38Z jonaslund: hopefully :) 2017-03-05T16:12:13Z cromachina: programming language implementation is always cool B) 2017-03-05T16:13:05Z fadein quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-03-05T16:13:26Z jonaslund: doing typeguards and other things i started noticing the similarity between the code checks the runtime does as it "interprets" things and how you usually do things twice as you start adding your native instructions 2017-03-05T16:13:48Z jonaslund: got me thinking of PyPy/Rpython but i'm not sure if that's a dead end or not 2017-03-05T16:14:46Z cromachina: what things do you end up doing twice? 2017-03-05T16:16:24Z cromachina: oh, you mean the composite form of the instructions in the interpreter itself? like implementing call and making sure it's really a function in the interpreter, while also emitting interpreted code that does it as well? 2017-03-05T16:16:43Z jonaslund: yeah 2017-03-05T16:17:06Z jonaslund: (I was looking back at the code i had done trying to find out what i was thinking of :) 2017-03-05T16:17:43Z cromachina: i suppose that is the uncertainty of job ownership 2017-03-05T16:18:07Z cromachina: im trying to convince myself that everything will be done in the bytecode and my interpreting loop will be dumb as bricks 2017-03-05T16:20:11Z jonaslund: a sane approach 2017-03-05T16:20:16Z jeapostrophe joined #scheme 2017-03-05T16:20:35Z jonaslund: done a ton of compilers,etc but only a few that actually approached something useful 2017-03-05T16:20:55Z cromachina: although checking things in the interpreter may help debug the bytecode itself 2017-03-05T16:20:58Z noethics joined #scheme 2017-03-05T16:21:08Z cromachina: in case i forget something (which always happens) 2017-03-05T16:23:28Z lambda-smith quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-03-05T16:27:28Z jeapostrophe quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-03-05T16:30:24Z jcowan quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-03-05T16:32:06Z jcowan joined #scheme 2017-03-05T16:51:22Z manualcrank joined #scheme 2017-03-05T17:00:56Z araujo quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-03-05T17:03:44Z jcowan_ joined #scheme 2017-03-05T17:05:27Z jcowan quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-03-05T17:05:48Z arbv quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-03-05T17:05:50Z oleo joined #scheme 2017-03-05T17:07:30Z arbv joined #scheme 2017-03-05T17:16:22Z pjb: cromachina: who owns the job? The employer! 2017-03-05T17:17:39Z jmd quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-03-05T17:23:28Z jeapostrophe joined #scheme 2017-03-05T17:23:28Z jeapostrophe quit (Changing host) 2017-03-05T17:23:28Z jeapostrophe joined #scheme 2017-03-05T17:26:10Z Blukunfando joined #scheme 2017-03-05T17:26:27Z alezost joined #scheme 2017-03-05T17:28:22Z jeapostrophe quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-03-05T17:28:52Z cromachina: lol 2017-03-05T17:30:24Z lambda-smith joined #scheme 2017-03-05T17:53:57Z ertesx joined #scheme 2017-03-05T17:55:17Z badkins joined #scheme 2017-03-05T17:57:45Z ertes quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-03-05T17:57:45Z ertesx is now known as ertes 2017-03-05T18:01:36Z nanoz left #scheme 2017-03-05T18:07:20Z badkins quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-03-05T18:09:06Z jeapostrophe joined #scheme 2017-03-05T18:13:04Z cibs quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-03-05T18:14:37Z cibs joined #scheme 2017-03-05T18:18:16Z amgarchIn9 joined #scheme 2017-03-05T18:19:19Z davorb quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-03-05T18:20:07Z davorb joined #scheme 2017-03-05T18:35:49Z fantazo joined #scheme 2017-03-05T18:46:27Z terpri quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-03-05T18:49:54Z terpri joined #scheme 2017-03-05T18:56:00Z jmd joined #scheme 2017-03-05T18:56:46Z amgarchIn9 quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2017-03-05T19:18:16Z jeapostrophe quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-03-05T19:26:07Z daviid joined #scheme 2017-03-05T19:47:10Z jmd quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-03-05T20:14:41Z jeapostrophe joined #scheme 2017-03-05T20:14:41Z jeapostrophe quit (Changing host) 2017-03-05T20:14:41Z jeapostrophe joined #scheme 2017-03-05T20:20:00Z jeapostrophe quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-03-05T20:44:38Z alezost quit (Quit: I live in GuixSD and Emacs ) 2017-03-05T20:59:22Z keramis joined #scheme 2017-03-05T21:03:35Z fantazo quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-03-05T21:06:08Z niklasl quit (Quit: Nettalk6 - www.ntalk.de) 2017-03-05T21:06:52Z bjz quit (Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. 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#scheme 2017-03-06T08:48:22Z wasamasa: morning 2017-03-06T08:48:32Z jcowan_ joined #scheme 2017-03-06T08:48:58Z VermillionAzure: Oh it's you again 2017-03-06T08:49:00Z VermillionAzure: Hello 2017-03-06T08:49:15Z VermillionAzure: So I guess I looked at that Scheme48 code you sent a look for 2017-03-06T08:49:21Z VermillionAzure: It's... not very clear IMO 2017-03-06T08:49:35Z VermillionAzure: maybe I'm just missing the manual 2017-03-06T08:50:27Z jcowan quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-03-06T08:52:10Z wasamasa: I wrote it's a clean, not clear implementation :P 2017-03-06T08:52:40Z wasamasa: perhaps you need to compare it to other implementations 2017-03-06T08:52:53Z wasamasa: chibi is another candidate and r7rs 2017-03-06T08:54:57Z VermillionAzure: wasamasa: Chibi is not super clear either 2017-03-06T08:55:06Z VermillionAzure: It was the first one I looked at. 2017-03-06T08:55:12Z wasamasa: I can given you examples that are definitely not cleanly implemented 2017-03-06T08:55:48Z wasamasa: like CHICKEN, it's wishlist has "Make the source a human-readable paragon of software development brilliance" 2017-03-06T08:56:04Z wasamasa: I couldn't figure out much in racket either 2017-03-06T08:56:17Z VermillionAzure: I mean, it's all very bit-twdiddly 2017-03-06T08:56:34Z chouchou_ quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2017-03-06T08:56:47Z VermillionAzure: For example: https://github.com/ashinn/chibi-scheme/blob/master/include/chibi/sexp.h 2017-03-06T08:56:58Z VermillionAzure: If you look here, there's a lot of stuff together 2017-03-06T08:57:14Z wasamasa: that's to be expected of a data representation 2017-03-06T08:57:54Z VermillionAzure: I guess so. I just wish I could make heads/tails of where to start. 2017-03-06T08:58:02Z jonaslund quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-03-06T08:58:06Z VermillionAzure: Too bad there's no standard way to signify a reading hierarchy 2017-03-06T08:58:39Z wasamasa: http://www.more-magic.net/posts/internals-data-representation.html has a list at the nd 2017-03-06T08:58:41Z wasamasa: *end 2017-03-06T08:58:54Z wasamasa: "Perl's data representation is about as bizarre as the language itself. See the perlguts man page for more details." 2017-03-06T09:00:14Z VermillionAzure: Mmm yes this is quite good. 2017-03-06T09:03:51Z wasamasa: assuming you want something less painful than java (which just exposes both primitive and object types) and more efficient than python (which boxes everything) 2017-03-06T09:04:35Z VermillionAzure: wasamasa: I only care about clarity, so Python's is probably what we're going for. 2017-03-06T09:04:53Z VermillionAzure: We're using a sum type made in C++ already so we don't worry about bit representations, etc. 2017-03-06T09:05:28Z lolcow joined #scheme 2017-03-06T09:08:32Z leppie quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-03-06T09:24:56Z cibs quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-03-06T09:26:40Z cibs joined #scheme 2017-03-06T09:32:38Z igajsin quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-03-06T09:35:22Z igajsin joined #scheme 2017-03-06T09:38:23Z Fare quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-03-06T09:45:08Z greatscottttt joined #scheme 2017-03-06T09:49:27Z qu1j0t3 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-03-06T09:52:14Z webshinra quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-03-06T09:52:32Z webshinra joined #scheme 2017-03-06T09:58:27Z lritter joined #scheme 2017-03-06T10:14:41Z jonaslund joined #scheme 2017-03-06T10:20:55Z davorb quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-03-06T10:21:45Z davorb joined #scheme 2017-03-06T10:28:48Z jeapostrophe quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-03-06T10:30:43Z qu1j0t3 joined #scheme 2017-03-06T10:37:35Z jeapostrophe joined #scheme 2017-03-06T10:48:05Z daviid joined #scheme 2017-03-06T10:51:35Z gK-1wm-su joined #scheme 2017-03-06T10:55:39Z gK-1wm-su quit (Excess Flood) 2017-03-06T11:11:51Z Blukunfando quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-03-06T11:16:48Z kuribas joined #scheme 2017-03-06T11:33:34Z DGASAU quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-03-06T11:37:03Z gacepa joined #scheme 2017-03-06T11:37:27Z DGASAU joined #scheme 2017-03-06T11:38:01Z jaziz quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-03-06T11:39:06Z DGASAU quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-03-06T11:45:14Z DGASAU joined #scheme 2017-03-06T11:49:57Z jcowan_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-03-06T11:50:19Z shdeng quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-03-06T11:51:04Z DGASAU quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-03-06T11:51:10Z eli joined #scheme 2017-03-06T11:53:33Z DGASAU joined #scheme 2017-03-06T12:00:54Z bjz_ joined #scheme 2017-03-06T12:02:05Z bjz quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-03-06T12:18:41Z m1dnight_ quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-03-06T12:20:03Z VermillionAzure quit (Quit: Page closed) 2017-03-06T12:26:34Z jeapostrophe quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-03-06T12:28:36Z m1dnight_ joined #scheme 2017-03-06T12:29:49Z daviid quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-03-06T12:30:26Z Fare joined #scheme 2017-03-06T12:45:32Z jonaslund quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-03-06T12:50:05Z jonaslund joined #scheme 2017-03-06T13:04:27Z igajsin quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-03-06T13:07:18Z jeapostrophe joined #scheme 2017-03-06T13:09:57Z igajsin joined #scheme 2017-03-06T13:10:31Z DGASAU quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-03-06T13:11:28Z Fare quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-03-06T13:13:37Z sz0 joined #scheme 2017-03-06T13:14:45Z bjz joined #scheme 2017-03-06T13:15:34Z bjz_ quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-03-06T13:25:47Z stepnem joined #scheme 2017-03-06T13:27:15Z bjz quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-03-06T13:28:19Z bjz joined #scheme 2017-03-06T13:32:47Z badkins joined #scheme 2017-03-06T13:39:57Z gacepa quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2017-03-06T13:41:52Z MrBismuth joined #scheme 2017-03-06T13:43:39Z MrBusiness3 joined #scheme 2017-03-06T13:44:24Z MrBusiness quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-03-06T13:46:16Z MrBismuth quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-03-06T13:46:19Z edgar-rft joined #scheme 2017-03-06T13:46:32Z lambda-smith joined #scheme 2017-03-06T13:48:36Z MrBusiness3 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-03-06T13:49:45Z MrBusiness3 joined #scheme 2017-03-06T13:55:37Z MrBusiness3 quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2017-03-06T14:13:44Z bjz quit (Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. 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Is there any standard way of writing to stderr? Nothing seems to be mentioned in R5RS. I see an "error" procedure in MIT/GNU Scheme and SCM and a "current-error-port" procedure in Racket's Scheme (though they were probably just imitating Racket itself). 2017-03-06T17:38:16Z wasamasa: r7rs defines current-error-port which you can write to 2017-03-06T17:44:51Z Riastradh quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2017-03-06T17:46:41Z Riastradh joined #scheme 2017-03-06T17:53:36Z jonaslund joined #scheme 2017-03-06T17:56:57Z edgar-rft joined #scheme 2017-03-06T18:05:28Z fantazo joined #scheme 2017-03-06T18:16:54Z jcowan joined #scheme 2017-03-06T18:17:18Z jmd joined #scheme 2017-03-06T18:17:31Z gwatt: r6rs also has standard-error-port 2017-03-06T18:21:19Z jeapostr1phe quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-03-06T18:35:10Z jeapostrophe joined #scheme 2017-03-06T18:35:10Z jeapostrophe quit (Changing host) 2017-03-06T18:35:10Z jeapostrophe joined #scheme 2017-03-06T18:43:31Z jeapostrophe quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-03-06T18:43:32Z ertes joined #scheme 2017-03-06T18:46:05Z Riastradh quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-03-06T18:50:52Z bgardner quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-03-06T18:52:48Z ertes quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-03-06T18:54:07Z jmd quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-03-06T18:59:54Z jeapostrophe joined #scheme 2017-03-06T18:59:54Z jeapostrophe quit (Changing host) 2017-03-06T18:59:54Z jeapostrophe joined #scheme 2017-03-06T18:59:55Z wasamasa: r6rs is like the matrix sequels 2017-03-06T19:03:18Z bgardner joined #scheme 2017-03-06T19:08:59Z MrBusiness is now known as MrBusiness3 2017-03-06T19:10:58Z jcowan: R6RS is "my way or the highway" 2017-03-06T19:12:34Z lolcow quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-03-06T19:14:24Z mg quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-03-06T19:16:44Z MrBusiness3 quit (Quit: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xIIqYqtR1lY -- Suicide is Painless - Johnny Mandel) 2017-03-06T19:17:42Z leppie joined #scheme 2017-03-06T19:19:28Z bgardner quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-03-06T19:22:27Z Fare joined #scheme 2017-03-06T19:24:58Z leppie quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2017-03-06T19:27:29Z mg_ joined #scheme 2017-03-06T19:27:37Z edgar-rft: now all errors in the scheme standard can be posted to the standard-error-port 2017-03-06T19:29:14Z leppie joined #scheme 2017-03-06T19:29:58Z jcowan: If only. 2017-03-06T19:30:06Z Fare quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2017-03-06T19:31:24Z bgardner joined #scheme 2017-03-06T19:33:32Z TheLemonMan joined #scheme 2017-03-06T19:38:36Z daviid quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2017-03-06T19:41:56Z mejja joined #scheme 2017-03-06T19:42:03Z ArneBab_ quit (Quit: http://quassel-irc.org - Chat comfortably. Anywhere.) 2017-03-06T19:45:32Z DGASAU joined #scheme 2017-03-06T19:47:50Z bjz joined #scheme 2017-03-06T19:58:29Z alezost quit (Quit: I live in GuixSD and Emacs ) 2017-03-06T20:03:34Z ArneBab joined #scheme 2017-03-06T20:03:34Z ArneBab quit (Changing host) 2017-03-06T20:03:34Z ArneBab joined #scheme 2017-03-06T20:04:14Z ArneBab quit (Client Quit) 2017-03-06T20:05:10Z ArneBab joined #scheme 2017-03-06T20:05:10Z ArneBab quit (Changing host) 2017-03-06T20:05:10Z ArneBab joined #scheme 2017-03-06T20:05:27Z JoshS joined #scheme 2017-03-06T20:05:38Z ArneBab quit (Client Quit) 2017-03-06T20:06:31Z ArneBab joined #scheme 2017-03-06T20:07:22Z ArneBab quit (Client Quit) 2017-03-06T20:07:58Z ArneBab joined #scheme 2017-03-06T20:10:29Z ArneBab quit (Client Quit) 2017-03-06T20:12:10Z ArneBab joined #scheme 2017-03-06T20:15:58Z ArneBab is now known as ArneBab_ 2017-03-06T20:16:22Z ArneBab_ is now known as ArneBab 2017-03-06T20:21:23Z lambda-smith quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2017-03-06T20:22:03Z davorb quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-03-06T20:22:47Z davorb joined #scheme 2017-03-06T20:26:27Z lambda-smith joined #scheme 2017-03-06T20:40:08Z jeapostrophe quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-03-06T20:45:54Z Blukunfando joined #scheme 2017-03-06T20:47:09Z igajsin quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-03-06T20:49:01Z JoshS quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-03-06T20:51:23Z civodul joined #scheme 2017-03-06T20:56:27Z civodul quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-03-06T20:57:05Z jeapostrophe joined #scheme 2017-03-06T21:01:46Z jeapostrophe quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-03-06T21:06:55Z civodul joined #scheme 2017-03-06T21:10:25Z marrenarre: Aww but I'm generally using R5RS. :/ 2017-03-06T21:10:34Z gravicappa quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2017-03-06T21:10:56Z marrenarre: Well okay, thanks. 2017-03-06T21:11:03Z marrenarre: Good to know in any case. 2017-03-06T21:11:04Z marrenarre quit (Quit: leaving) 2017-03-06T21:16:25Z fantazo quit (Quit: Verlassend) 2017-03-06T21:17:34Z lritter quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-03-06T21:17:51Z jeapostrophe joined #scheme 2017-03-06T21:17:51Z jeapostrophe quit (Changing host) 2017-03-06T21:17:51Z jeapostrophe joined #scheme 2017-03-06T21:19:39Z bjz quit (Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. 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Is it the correct way to do this in scheme with an alist ? '( (key1 value1) (key2 value2) (key3 value3)) ? 2017-03-07T10:32:46Z noethics_ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2017-03-07T10:35:17Z fizzie: '((key1 . value1) (key2 . value2) ...) maybe more commonly. 2017-03-07T10:36:40Z fizzie: And you might also be looking for `((key1 . ,value1) (key2 . ,value2) ...) or something like that. 2017-03-07T10:40:11Z solene: fizzie: in the case (key1 . value1) how do you retrieve it with the key ? 2017-03-07T10:44:19Z fizzie: (assq/assv/assoc key alist) gives you the (key . value) pair -- using eq?/eqv?/equal? for the comparison, respectively -- and then you can apply cdr if you just want the value part. 2017-03-07T10:46:26Z solene: fizzie: I tried assoc before asking, but the following returns #f, what am I doing wrong ? (assoc 'key1 '( (key1.value1) (key2 . value2) (key3 . value3))) 2017-03-07T10:48:04Z fizzie: You're missing a space. "." is a valid character in an identifier, so key1.value1 is just one big identifier. 2017-03-07T10:48:18Z fizzie: Try (assoc 'key1 '( (key1 . value1) (key2 . value2) (key3 . value3))) 2017-03-07T10:48:19Z solene: oh, thanks 2017-03-07T11:08:01Z kuribas joined #scheme 2017-03-07T11:08:36Z bjz_ joined #scheme 2017-03-07T11:10:32Z bjz quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-03-07T11:48:32Z shdeng quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-03-07T12:02:10Z bjz joined #scheme 2017-03-07T12:03:58Z bjz_ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2017-03-07T12:12:08Z jeapostrophe quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-03-07T12:14:23Z jeapostrophe joined #scheme 2017-03-07T12:14:23Z jeapostrophe quit (Changing host) 2017-03-07T12:14:23Z jeapostrophe joined #scheme 2017-03-07T12:22:51Z davorb quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-03-07T12:23:10Z davorb joined #scheme 2017-03-07T12:43:17Z nckx quit (Quit: ☭ + 🐧 + GNU Guix) 2017-03-07T12:48:49Z nckx joined #scheme 2017-03-07T13:02:31Z jeapostrophe quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-03-07T13:10:19Z zacts joined #scheme 2017-03-07T13:11:11Z nckx quit (Quit: ☭ + 🐧 + GNU Guix) 2017-03-07T13:11:57Z civodul joined #scheme 2017-03-07T13:14:49Z nckx joined #scheme 2017-03-07T13:14:54Z dmiles quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-03-07T13:16:55Z dmiles joined #scheme 2017-03-07T13:17:10Z jeapostrophe joined #scheme 2017-03-07T13:33:53Z lambda-smith joined #scheme 2017-03-07T13:39:30Z jeapostrophe quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-03-07T13:42:03Z Fare joined #scheme 2017-03-07T13:42:50Z badkins joined #scheme 2017-03-07T13:48:11Z bjz quit (Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. 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ZZZzzz…) 2017-03-09T13:06:57Z trakka: can a macro call any function I define (which will be executed at compile time as well) ? 2017-03-09T13:07:06Z trakka: or only other macros? 2017-03-09T13:08:55Z ecraven: trakka: that depends on your Scheme implementation 2017-03-09T13:09:10Z ecraven: a macro cannot directly "call" another macro, but it can expand to code that is then expanded further 2017-03-09T13:09:29Z ecraven: which functions a macro can call depends on the implementation, whether there is a syntactic tower and proper phasing, or not 2017-03-09T13:10:22Z trakka: ecraven: say, mit-scheme 2017-03-09T13:10:40Z trakka: what is syntactic tower vs proper phasing? 2017-03-09T13:15:21Z bjz joined #scheme 2017-03-09T13:19:58Z jeapostrophe joined #scheme 2017-03-09T13:19:58Z jeapostrophe quit (Changing host) 2017-03-09T13:19:58Z jeapostrophe joined #scheme 2017-03-09T13:24:40Z trakka: i mean, the scheme expands a macro, it's basically just calling a function at compile, right? 2017-03-09T13:24:44Z trakka: which can call other functions 2017-03-09T13:26:07Z wasamasa: during the expansion of a macro, other macros inside can be expanded 2017-03-09T13:26:40Z trakka: but can a macro call a regular function? let's say, one that returns a quoted list 2017-03-09T13:26:50Z trakka: which is then inserted into the final form 2017-03-09T13:27:33Z gwatt: Yep 2017-03-09T13:27:38Z trakka: awesome 2017-03-09T13:28:03Z wasamasa: this is typically used to avoid having lots of code inside a macro 2017-03-09T13:28:27Z wasamasa: phasing is about whether the function must have been defined before it can be used, no? 2017-03-09T13:28:42Z trakka: so, macros are like regular functions, they just happen to produce literals/lists 2017-03-09T13:29:01Z wasamasa: they don't evalute their args, so they aren't like regular functions 2017-03-09T13:29:13Z trakka: yeah, except that :) 2017-03-09T13:29:18Z wasamasa: I've implemented macros this way in MAL 2017-03-09T13:29:35Z trakka: this way? 2017-03-09T13:29:38Z wasamasa: both macro and function definitions bind a function to a symbol, in the case of macro, an extra flag is set 2017-03-09T13:29:47Z trakka: ah 2017-03-09T13:30:02Z trakka: can it call itself recursively? 2017-03-09T13:30:56Z wasamasa: a macro can refer to itself, see -> and ->> for examples where this is useful to have 2017-03-09T13:31:19Z wasamasa: https://bitbucket.org/DerGuteMoritz/clojurian/src/8ad155e2cf629b71130b3631d3bb30ea40487939/clojurian-syntax.scm?at=master&fileviewer=file-view-default#clojurian-syntax.scm-37 2017-03-09T13:31:21Z rudybot: http://teensy.info/V8cUJ6SASY 2017-03-09T13:31:42Z wasamasa: this macro rewrites a sequential series of forms into a nested series of forms 2017-03-09T13:33:24Z trakka: k 2017-03-09T13:34:33Z trakka: wasamasa: what does _ signify 2017-03-09T13:34:49Z wasamasa: it's a shorter way to match the macro's name 2017-03-09T13:35:32Z trakka: so _ is ->> in the example? 2017-03-09T13:35:50Z wasamasa: yes 2017-03-09T13:36:07Z trakka: but when you use ->> directly, it means recursive expansion? 2017-03-09T13:36:10Z trakka: while _ does not 2017-03-09T13:36:47Z wasamasa: syntax-rules consists of clauses where the head of the clause is a matching pattern and the tail of the clause the expansion 2017-03-09T13:37:04Z wasamasa: so, if (-> x) is encountered, it expands to x 2017-03-09T13:37:13Z wasamasa: and so on 2017-03-09T13:37:23Z gwatt: trakka: No, you could put anything there. underscore is used to say "I don't care about this value" 2017-03-09T13:37:35Z trakka: oh 2017-03-09T13:37:50Z trakka: ah, it's part of the pattern matching 2017-03-09T13:37:53Z wasamasa: repeating the macro's name for each clause is a bit bothersome, so it's usual to use _ instead 2017-03-09T13:38:07Z wasamasa: you'll want to read http://www.willdonnelly.net/blog/scheme-syntax-rules/ 2017-03-09T13:38:21Z bjz quit (Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2017-03-09T13:38:26Z trakka: thanks 2017-03-09T13:38:33Z wasamasa: and maybe http://www.phyast.pitt.edu/~micheles/syntax-rules.pdf after that 2017-03-09T13:39:02Z trakka: in principle, this should be easy, not sure why i struggle so much with understanding macro implementation... argh 2017-03-09T13:39:07Z wasamasa: there's other macro systems for scheme, syntax-rules is just the standard thing to use 2017-03-09T13:39:31Z wasamasa: unlike in languages like elisp or clojure where only one macro system exists 2017-03-09T13:39:51Z trakka: doesn't clojure have two? regular and reader macros 2017-03-09T13:40:05Z trakka: i was told so today :) 2017-03-09T13:40:36Z wasamasa: well, reader macros aren't exactly about source transformation and apply at a different level, when reading in the file 2017-03-09T13:40:45Z trakka: yeah 2017-03-09T13:40:50Z ecraven: mit-scheme has syntax tables for "reader macros" 2017-03-09T13:40:51Z wasamasa: clojure's implementation of them is rather limited compared to CL 2017-03-09T13:40:58Z gwatt: and they could still use the same underlying macro system 2017-03-09T13:41:07Z trakka: i tried clojure a bit, got fed up with insane JVM exceptions 2017-03-09T13:41:10Z trakka: unhelpful 2017-03-09T13:41:13Z wasamasa: haha 2017-03-09T13:41:17Z wasamasa: did you try core.async? 2017-03-09T13:41:21Z trakka: no 2017-03-09T13:41:27Z wasamasa: it's a great library, but the macro expansion errors are the worst 2017-03-09T13:41:46Z gwatt: macro expansion errors are generally bad anywhere 2017-03-09T13:42:09Z wasamasa: at least they attempt getting better 2017-03-09T13:42:30Z trakka: c++ template errors ain't no better 2017-03-09T13:42:37Z trakka: looking at one right now 2017-03-09T13:42:43Z trakka: concepts, please 2017-03-09T13:44:20Z gwatt: heh. "You forgot a type parameter, here's 10M of error output" 2017-03-09T13:51:55Z trakka: so there are a things you *cannot* write with syntax-rules? 2017-03-09T13:52:11Z trakka: i guess when you actually want capture of things? 2017-03-09T13:52:17Z trakka: which sounds nasty 2017-03-09T13:52:39Z wasamasa: yeah, you can work around this by having the macro specify the captured identifier 2017-03-09T13:52:52Z wasamasa: so, instead of aif, you get if-let 2017-03-09T13:54:14Z trakka: "(while condition body ...)" 2017-03-09T13:54:28Z trakka: does "body" end up as a list that I can work with inside the macro? 2017-03-09T13:54:34Z trakka: cons to it, etc? 2017-03-09T13:54:59Z wasamasa: (aif (the-answer) (begin (display "The answer is: ") (display it) (newline))) is less nice than (if-let (answer (the-answer)) (begin (display "The answer is: ") (display answer) (newline))) 2017-03-09T13:55:28Z wasamasa: you get a list due to the ... after the argument 2017-03-09T13:55:42Z wasamasa: you must use the same syntax in the expansion 2017-03-09T14:08:40Z trakka: but i can do stuff like (cons 'something body ...) to change the body? 2017-03-09T14:10:30Z Menche joined #scheme 2017-03-09T14:11:31Z wasamasa: it's more typical to use quasiquote and unquote-splicing, but yes 2017-03-09T14:12:23Z trakka: but in theory, you can always do without? 2017-03-09T14:13:07Z wasamasa: sure 2017-03-09T14:13:15Z trakka: cool 2017-03-09T14:13:45Z wasamasa: or wait, that applies to other macro systems, using quasiquote :P 2017-03-09T14:14:11Z trakka: you mean, no quasiquoting in syntax-rules ? 2017-03-09T14:14:32Z ecraven: you can quasi-quote, but it doesn't do what you think ;) 2017-03-09T14:14:40Z trakka: what does it do? 2017-03-09T14:14:43Z ecraven: read r5rs or r7rs on syntax-rules, or any of the other tutorials 2017-03-09T14:14:49Z trakka: ugh 2017-03-09T14:14:52Z ecraven: it just quotes, it won't lead to code that will be evaluated 2017-03-09T14:15:05Z trakka: k 2017-03-09T14:15:15Z wasamasa: it's only good for debugging syntax-rules 2017-03-09T14:17:08Z lambda-smith joined #scheme 2017-03-09T14:23:30Z jcowan joined #scheme 2017-03-09T14:25:27Z jcowan_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-03-09T14:26:39Z davorb quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-03-09T14:27:32Z jeapostr1phe joined #scheme 2017-03-09T14:27:38Z davorb joined #scheme 2017-03-09T14:29:58Z jeapostrophe quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-03-09T14:33:59Z cromachina quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-03-09T14:34:52Z ecraven: syntax-rules has its uses, but it is certainly not a solution to all macrology needs 2017-03-09T14:35:07Z ecraven: that's the reason why mit-scheme also has syntactic closures, explicit renaming and a few others 2017-03-09T14:35:31Z trakka: ecraven: what's a syntactic closure, in layman terms (haha) ? 2017-03-09T14:35:38Z trakka: fexpr-ism? 2017-03-09T14:36:04Z ecraven: you close over syntax in an environment 2017-03-09T14:36:38Z trakka: over my head 2017-03-09T14:37:37Z trakka: so macros with quasiquotes in commonlisp in more general than syntax-rules () ? 2017-03-09T14:38:53Z trakka: i mean, what is a macro need not covered by syntax rules? 2017-03-09T14:39:06Z trakka: should i learn something more powerful instead? 2017-03-09T14:39:18Z ecraven: well, syntax-rules is hygienic, so it is great to know 2017-03-09T14:39:30Z ecraven: also, it really isn't hard to understand the basic use of syntax-rules 2017-03-09T14:39:42Z ecraven: but you cannot (easily) break hygiene with syntax-rules 2017-03-09T14:39:51Z ecraven: so `aif' would be hard to write with it 2017-03-09T14:40:06Z trakka: but not impossible?Å 2017-03-09T14:40:20Z trakka: (not that I know what aif is) 2017-03-09T14:40:22Z ecraven: oleg (I think) has done some things that seemed impossible 2017-03-09T14:41:33Z trakka: a couple of guys in #clojure called paul graham an idiot today. I was going to buy On Lisp. What's wrong with him? 2017-03-09T14:42:04Z trakka: i didn't get a clear answer why, just muttering about politics I guess, which I think is irrelevant 2017-03-09T14:42:40Z ecraven: on lisp is nice 2017-03-09T14:43:19Z dsp quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2017-03-09T14:43:51Z trakka: do we like Arc? :) 2017-03-09T14:44:43Z qu1j0t3: trakka: On Lisp is a good common lisp book. 2017-03-09T14:44:55Z qu1j0t3: trakka: if that's what you're into. 2017-03-09T14:45:12Z trakka: figured i should learn common lisp, yeah 2017-03-09T14:45:28Z trakka: some guys i co-operative with use it, and i feel lost 2017-03-09T14:45:58Z trakka: looks like an ugly lisp to me, but they claim it's practical 2017-03-09T14:47:21Z alezost quit (Quit: I live in GuixSD and Emacs ) 2017-03-09T14:49:01Z wasamasa: you can do anything you want in it, asides from doing purely functional programming 2017-03-09T15:03:46Z trakka quit (Quit: leaving) 2017-03-09T15:19:57Z jao joined #scheme 2017-03-09T15:31:57Z pjb joined #scheme 2017-03-09T15:44:08Z dbmikus joined #scheme 2017-03-09T16:25:08Z snits joined #scheme 2017-03-09T16:26:42Z davorb quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-03-09T16:26:51Z greatscottttt quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.5) 2017-03-09T16:27:17Z davorb joined #scheme 2017-03-09T16:31:38Z sethalves quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2017-03-09T16:40:32Z daviid joined #scheme 2017-03-09T16:46:55Z trakka joined #scheme 2017-03-09T16:47:10Z trakka: is it ever useful to double or triple quote? 2017-03-09T16:47:16Z trakka: ''a ever useful? 2017-03-09T16:47:26Z trakka: scheme accepts it, but i don't know why 2017-03-09T16:47:29Z trakka: or for what 2017-03-09T16:49:44Z gwatt: 'x is a reader macro for (quote x) 2017-03-09T16:49:57Z trakka: yes 2017-03-09T16:50:02Z gwatt: 'quote is a legitimate symbol 2017-03-09T16:50:25Z trakka: but i can't just '' 2017-03-09T16:50:48Z gwatt: So ''x expands to (quote (quote x)), which is actually a list containing 'quote and 'x 2017-03-09T16:50:59Z trakka: is that ever useful? 2017-03-09T16:51:07Z trakka: quote the quote 2017-03-09T16:51:21Z gwatt: As quote requires a single argument, '' would be an error 2017-03-09T16:51:37Z trakka: ok, forget ' 2017-03-09T16:51:45Z trakka: is (quote (quote x)) ever useful? 2017-03-09T16:51:52Z trakka: or even more quotes 2017-03-09T16:52:06Z gwatt: If you ever want the symbol 'quote, then yes it is 2017-03-09T16:52:20Z trakka: well, would ya 2017-03-09T16:53:18Z gwatt: Maybe. 2017-03-09T16:53:31Z gwatt: I'd probably want 'quote more than 'asdfhqiuy34trfguybafku 2017-03-09T16:54:27Z trakka: i see 2017-03-09T16:54:42Z trakka: although the latter seems like a fine gensym 2017-03-09T16:54:52Z trakka: of the manual sort 2017-03-09T16:54:57Z gwatt: rudybot: (gensym) 2017-03-09T16:54:58Z rudybot: gwatt: IMO no need to -sym everything. Also `gensym' is from cl.el and you can just use (make-symbol "something"), or else should (eval-while-compile (require 'cl)), and in the future use `cl-gensym' instead of `gensym'. 2017-03-09T16:55:03Z gravicappa joined #scheme 2017-03-09T16:55:10Z trakka: rofl 2017-03-09T16:55:56Z gwatt: darn you, rudybot! 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What is the syntax to evaluate scheme expressions on it ? 2017-03-10T08:55:18Z X-Scale: rudybot: (+ 1 2) 2017-03-10T08:55:18Z rudybot: X-Scale: user=> (eval '{:a (+ 1 2)}) 2017-03-10T08:55:25Z X-Scale: rudybot: (+ 1 2) 2017-03-10T08:55:25Z rudybot: X-Scale: emacs --batch -eval '(my-function my-arg-1 my-arg-2 my-arg-3)' 2017-03-10T08:57:51Z wasamasa: rudybot: eval (+ 1 2) 2017-03-10T08:57:52Z rudybot: wasamasa: SetArray(){ name=$1; index=$2; value=$3; eval "$name$index = $value"; } GetArray(){ name=$1; index=$2; eval "\$$name$index"; } 2017-03-10T08:58:05Z wasamasa: rudybot: eval: (+ 1 2) 2017-03-10T08:58:06Z rudybot: wasamasa: eval (mapcar (lambda (l) (sort l #'>)) '((0 1) (2 3) (4 5))) 2017-03-10T08:58:16Z wasamasa: meh 2017-03-10T09:05:45Z Riastradh quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-03-10T09:10:55Z pjb joined #scheme 2017-03-10T09:16:02Z raduom quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-03-10T09:24:24Z bjz_ joined #scheme 2017-03-10T09:24:32Z bjz quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-03-10T09:29:08Z webshinra quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-03-10T09:31:34Z webshinra joined #scheme 2017-03-10T09:36:27Z jonaslund joined #scheme 2017-03-10T09:38:49Z greatscottttt joined #scheme 2017-03-10T09:39:27Z jeapostrophe joined #scheme 2017-03-10T09:39:27Z jeapostrophe quit (Changing host) 2017-03-10T09:39:27Z jeapostrophe joined #scheme 2017-03-10T09:44:36Z jeapostrophe quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-03-10T09:51:53Z Riastradh joined #scheme 2017-03-10T09:58:50Z Riastradh quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-03-10T10:01:48Z webshinra quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-03-10T10:03:58Z webshinra joined #scheme 2017-03-10T10:09:57Z Vermie joined #scheme 2017-03-10T10:10:06Z Vermie: Hello everyone 2017-03-10T10:10:20Z Vermie: Can somebody tell me what they know about the R7RS people? 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Or is the parent environment saved once when the function is called the first time - and thus immutable? 2017-03-11T07:57:35Z jeapostrophe quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-03-11T08:02:23Z jaziz quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-03-11T08:08:29Z jeapostrophe joined #scheme 2017-03-11T08:13:34Z jeapostrophe quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2017-03-11T08:15:38Z uczy: I made a quick illustration: http://i.imgur.com/sd9TdCJ.png 2017-03-11T08:15:59Z uczy: The dotted line indicates that it is the same function 2017-03-11T08:16:36Z uczy: The circles are the functions, the rectangles the environments 2017-03-11T08:23:12Z pjb: I think that you have to distinguish closures from the global environment. If you mean the global environment, then it's shared and any mutation will be visible in both continuations. 2017-03-11T08:24:28Z pjb: Now the continuations can be in different closures, in the same closure, or partially in a same parent closure. Then one continuation can mutate its lexical environment and only the shared part will be visible by the other continuation. 2017-03-11T08:24:55Z pjb: Ie. is it on the stack/tree or is it in the heap? 2017-03-11T08:25:00Z uczy: woah 2017-03-11T08:25:38Z uczy: no idea. I'm not even sure how they are implemented. I just read about spaghetti trees 2017-03-11T08:26:31Z uczy: Okay, let's assume they are dynamically allocated on a heap 2017-03-11T08:27:19Z pjb: Then it's shared. Like for threads, any mutation will be visible by all immediately. 2017-03-11T08:28:20Z uczy: Very interesting, thank you! I'll have to read more about closures, then. 2017-03-11T08:28:53Z pjb: You have to understand very well closures before considering continuations. 2017-03-11T08:30:10Z jonaslund joined #scheme 2017-03-11T08:31:02Z davorb quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-03-11T08:31:56Z davorb joined #scheme 2017-03-11T08:41:32Z grublet joined #scheme 2017-03-11T09:02:26Z uczy quit (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.93 [Firefox 52.0/20170303012758]) 2017-03-11T09:04:27Z IRCFrEAK joined #scheme 2017-03-11T09:05:53Z IRCFrEAK quit (K-Lined) 2017-03-11T09:09:19Z jeapostrophe joined #scheme 2017-03-11T09:14:46Z jeapostrophe quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2017-03-11T09:15:27Z edgar-rft quit (Quit: edgar-rft) 2017-03-11T09:30:58Z Kkiro joined #scheme 2017-03-11T09:30:58Z Kkiro quit (Changing host) 2017-03-11T09:30:58Z Kkiro joined #scheme 2017-03-11T09:42:22Z amz3: tx! 2017-03-11T09:42:28Z amz3: I was wondering the same thing 2017-03-11T09:43:06Z amz3: I am facing a problem that I don't think I even have a solution 2017-03-11T09:43:11Z amz3: well I facing a problem 2017-03-11T09:43:58Z amz3: basically, imagine the flat structure of an html sub documents made of heading (h1, h2, h3, until h6) and p tags 2017-03-11T09:43:58Z noethics: did this person go overboard 2017-03-11T09:43:59Z noethics: https://github.com/kedebug/LispEx/blob/master/stdlib.ss#L49-L53 2017-03-11T09:45:16Z amz3: the input problem is a list of h1-h6 and p like (h1 p h2 p h2 p p h1 p p p h1 p) 2017-03-11T09:45:36Z amz3: I want to parse that list, and convert it to a tree 2017-03-11T09:46:11Z amz3: that looks like the following (h1 (p (h2 p p)) (h1 p p p) (h1 p)) 2017-03-11T09:46:57Z amz3: this tree has one particular property inherited from the constraint of the original DSL 2017-03-11T09:47:27Z amz3: you can not have p following a list 2017-03-11T09:47:57Z amz3: (for instance (h1 (p (h2 p) p)) is a possible parse 2017-03-11T09:48:12Z amz3: but you can have (h1 (p (h2 p) (h2 p)) 2017-03-11T09:49:36Z amz3: actually the property is stronger that I thought 2017-03-11T09:50:28Z amz3: given a heading hn where n is number between 1 and 6, a given tree, a hn list can not be *followed* by a hm list where m < n 2017-03-11T09:53:03Z amz3: the following (h1 p (h2 h1 p)) is not possible 2017-03-11T09:53:51Z amz3: if h1 appears after h2, then it's a new heading of level, so it must follow a h1 node 2017-03-11T09:54:21Z amz3: I have found a written algorithm but it use mutations 2017-03-11T09:55:35Z amz3: basically, you have two cursors in the tree where you can append nodes 2017-03-11T09:55:47Z amz3: at the paragrah level or at the heading level 2017-03-11T09:56:57Z amz3: the problem is basically explained in this document https://www.cmpe.boun.edu.tr/~gungort/papers/Heading-Based%20Sectional%20Hierarchy%20Identification%20for%20HTML%20Documents.pdf 2017-03-11T09:56:58Z rudybot: http://teensy.info/vTHiEmfm80 2017-03-11T09:57:09Z amz3: the algorithm is page 3 2017-03-11T09:58:00Z amz3: does scheme cursors use mutation? 2017-03-11T10:00:46Z amz3: I read https://pavpanchekha.com/blog/zippers/huet.html 2017-03-11T10:03:47Z pjb quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-03-11T10:05:29Z pjb joined #scheme 2017-03-11T10:06:45Z amz3: what syntax does use this post? is it scheme? 2017-03-11T10:09:59Z jeapostrophe joined #scheme 2017-03-11T10:09:59Z jeapostrophe quit (Changing host) 2017-03-11T10:09:59Z jeapostrophe joined #scheme 2017-03-11T10:13:29Z grublet: if i ever see parentheses abuse i just assume some sort of lisp 2017-03-11T10:15:04Z jeapostrophe quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-03-11T10:16:03Z amz3: according to this post I can solve the problem using a naive approach 2017-03-11T10:16:24Z amz3: without resorting on call/cc or complex recurrence scheme 2017-03-11T10:19:03Z taylan: I keep finding myself wanting to write (length string) and (length bytevector) instead of (string-length string) and (bytevector-length bytevector) 2017-03-11T10:19:40Z taylan: definitely one of the nice things about static typing that you can do that without performance loss >_< 2017-03-11T10:24:24Z wasamasa: noethics: maybe they come from haskell 2017-03-11T10:25:40Z pjb quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-03-11T10:26:11Z wasamasa: noethics: actually, aside from that use of curry, this is a pretty nice stdlib file 2017-03-11T10:26:20Z noethics: wasamasa, yeah 2017-03-11T10:26:39Z noethics: the whole thing is pretty nice 2017-03-11T10:27:03Z wasamasa: I could almost use it elsewhere, if that dialect of lisp I'm targeting properly supported TCO and first-class functions 2017-03-11T10:27:18Z noethics: yeah :( 2017-03-11T10:27:40Z noethics: oh wait 2017-03-11T10:27:53Z noethics: thought you meant something else. this one doesn't have TCO either 2017-03-11T10:28:05Z wasamasa: it doesn't? 2017-03-11T10:28:16Z wasamasa: well, then using that foldl/foldr is going to blow up :P 2017-03-11T10:28:31Z noethics: it has it with letrec 2017-03-11T10:28:42Z noethics: idk the TODO says it needs to do TCO 2017-03-11T10:28:46Z noethics: but the examples show letrec 2017-03-11T10:28:55Z noethics: didnt look into it 2017-03-11T10:29:18Z wasamasa: then, that lisp I'm targetting has more serious problems :P 2017-03-11T10:29:27Z wasamasa: like, GC bugs 2017-03-11T10:29:35Z noethics: lol D: 2017-03-11T10:29:36Z wasamasa: and a JS-like let 2017-03-11T10:30:01Z amz3: I took me time to understand the interest of lisp style let 2017-03-11T10:30:08Z amz3: I mean scheme 2017-03-11T10:30:17Z wasamasa: you only learn how important let is once you don't have it 2017-03-11T10:30:35Z wasamasa: imagine if you could only (let x 42) and its use were only allowed inside lambdas 2017-03-11T10:30:45Z wasamasa: good luck creating a closure! 2017-03-11T10:30:53Z amz3: yes 2017-03-11T10:31:06Z wasamasa: it's still possible in JS, but eh 2017-03-11T10:31:20Z davorb quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-03-11T10:31:24Z taylan: wasamasa: oh don't worry, you always have Immediately-Invoked Function Expressions :D http://benalman.com/news/2010/11/immediately-invoked-function-expression/ 2017-03-11T10:31:44Z davorb joined #scheme 2017-03-11T10:31:45Z amz3: wasamasa: how useful is letrec compared to javascript of doing mutually recursive procedures? 2017-03-11T10:31:47Z wasamasa: taylan: I hate these, they make hacking a website with an userscript much harder than it should be 2017-03-11T10:32:12Z wasamasa: amz3: hm, I'm sure there is a variant of modules implemented with IIFE that allow mutual recursion 2017-03-11T10:32:41Z taylan: wasamasa: but you see the irony in this whole thing where they give it a fancy name and talk about how awesome it is, right? :P 2017-03-11T10:32:44Z amz3: IIFE? 2017-03-11T10:32:44Z wasamasa: otherwise, you could always declare an identifier and set it to the real value later... 2017-03-11T10:32:55Z wasamasa: (function() {...})() 2017-03-11T10:32:56Z taylan: I had a combination of a huge facepalm and hilarity when I first saw that page 2017-03-11T10:33:06Z wasamasa: oh, I totally do 2017-03-11T10:33:18Z wasamasa: I learned about them first when reading JavaScript - The Good Parts 2017-03-11T10:33:32Z wasamasa: well done author-san, look at what you've unleashed 2017-03-11T10:33:58Z amz3: IIFE! 2017-03-11T10:34:31Z amz3: I don't know how to do IIFE for mutual recursion 2017-03-11T10:36:20Z amz3: I used letrec in forward that's what makes the thing possible 2017-03-11T10:36:28Z amz3: too bad biwascheme is slow 2017-03-11T10:37:42Z wasamasa: I've yet to use a scheme->js compiler 2017-03-11T10:37:54Z wasamasa: it just seems like too much of a headache to me 2017-03-11T10:38:08Z wasamasa: having to know two languages well, rather than only one 2017-03-11T10:38:59Z wasamasa: also, isn't it ironic how the whole JS world has the "JS is sort of Scheme" as legitimation, yet we have scheme->JS compilers? 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For fun, about to give a talk tomorrow in Tokyo on scalable substitutes for reference counts in multiprocessor OS kernels. 2017-03-11T16:05:08Z edgar-rft: Riastradh: probabilistic computing is when there is a chance that your programs compute something? 2017-03-11T16:10:57Z muelleme quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-03-11T16:12:48Z alexshendi2 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-03-11T16:19:25Z DGASAU quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-03-11T16:19:48Z enderby joined #scheme 2017-03-11T16:20:05Z DGASAU joined #scheme 2017-03-11T16:23:49Z sunnny left #scheme 2017-03-11T16:28:48Z amz3: what is probabilistic computing? 2017-03-11T16:28:56Z amz3: Riastradh: ^ 2017-03-11T16:29:48Z dcluna quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-03-11T16:30:34Z dcluna joined #scheme 2017-03-11T16:39:40Z jeapostrophe joined #scheme 2017-03-11T16:39:40Z jeapostrophe quit (Changing host) 2017-03-11T16:39:40Z jeapostrophe joined #scheme 2017-03-11T16:44:22Z jeapostrophe quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-03-11T16:45:48Z cibs quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-03-11T16:47:58Z cibs joined #scheme 2017-03-11T16:53:12Z DGASAU quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2017-03-11T16:57:37Z gravicappa joined #scheme 2017-03-11T17:02:48Z DGASAU joined #scheme 2017-03-11T17:07:40Z muelleme joined #scheme 2017-03-11T17:12:08Z muelleme quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-03-11T17:14:46Z TheLemonMan joined #scheme 2017-03-11T17:16:28Z webshinra quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-03-11T17:35:16Z mejja quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-03-11T17:39:22Z lambda-smith quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2017-03-11T17:40:22Z jeapostrophe joined #scheme 2017-03-11T17:41:13Z lambda-smith joined #scheme 2017-03-11T17:45:22Z jeapostrophe quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2017-03-11T17:47:39Z jeapostrophe joined #scheme 2017-03-11T17:55:20Z libertytrader joined #scheme 2017-03-11T17:55:29Z ertesx joined #scheme 2017-03-11T17:55:29Z libertytrader quit (Client Quit) 2017-03-11T17:56:06Z nomicflux joined #scheme 2017-03-11T17:58:22Z ertes quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2017-03-11T17:58:22Z ertesx is now known as ertes 2017-03-11T18:02:30Z noethics joined #scheme 2017-03-11T18:08:32Z muelleme joined #scheme 2017-03-11T18:14:48Z muelleme quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-03-11T18:16:10Z JoshS quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-03-11T18:16:55Z gravicappa quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-03-11T18:20:20Z igajsin quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2017-03-11T18:22:45Z jao joined #scheme 2017-03-11T18:29:46Z nomicflux quit (Quit: nomicflux) 2017-03-11T18:38:24Z muelleme joined #scheme 2017-03-11T18:54:06Z teurastaja joined #scheme 2017-03-11T18:55:34Z lambda-smith quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2017-03-11T19:00:17Z Menche joined #scheme 2017-03-11T19:04:16Z gravicappa joined #scheme 2017-03-11T19:06:20Z bjz joined #scheme 2017-03-11T19:07:17Z webshinra joined #scheme 2017-03-11T19:19:56Z webshinra quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-03-11T19:20:27Z DGASAU quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2017-03-11T19:23:31Z TheLemonMan quit (Quit: "It's now safe to turn off your computer.") 2017-03-11T19:30:23Z webshinra joined #scheme 2017-03-11T19:32:08Z daviid joined #scheme 2017-03-11T19:35:23Z cemerick joined #scheme 2017-03-11T19:42:31Z cemerick quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-03-11T19:44:30Z nomicflux joined #scheme 2017-03-11T19:52:08Z teurastaja: wondering how one could implement closures without function pointers. still havent answered that question 2017-03-11T19:56:08Z manualcrank joined #scheme 2017-03-11T20:00:15Z cromachina: a closure is data + a function, how would you throw out the function part? 2017-03-11T20:02:11Z lambda-smith joined #scheme 2017-03-11T20:03:28Z teurastaja: cromachina: i dont know but i cant use function pointers properly on a 8051 without either putting them in code section or telling the linker every pointed-to function its address at compile-time 2017-03-11T20:07:05Z DGASAU joined #scheme 2017-03-11T20:09:18Z cromachina: what is arbitrating this code section, and why cant you mark memory regions executable? 2017-03-11T20:11:32Z jeapostrophe quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2017-03-11T20:11:56Z teurastaja: cromachina: the code section is not writable at execution time 2017-03-11T20:12:12Z wasamasa: securitah 2017-03-11T20:12:18Z teurastaja: nah 2017-03-11T20:12:29Z teurastaja: just old leftovers 2017-03-11T20:12:51Z cromachina: so its a program once thing, and then run it? 2017-03-11T20:13:21Z cromachina: not too familiar with microcontrollers.. 2017-03-11T20:13:22Z teurastaja: theres no security on a 8051. its security features are mistakes 2017-03-11T20:15:22Z teurastaja: cromachina: yeah sort of. i heard if you short the WR and PSEN using a NOR gate (active low) pins you can force execution in ram but i prefer finding another solution if possible 2017-03-11T20:15:52Z cromachina: i suppose you could circumvent this with a vm or interpreter.. although that may not be feasible given whatever constraints you have 2017-03-11T20:16:51Z teurastaja: cromachina: i have 4KB of RAM at a time (memory-banked) 2017-03-11T20:17:41Z bjz quit (Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2017-03-11T20:18:13Z teurastaja: sorry i meant 8KB but if i map the heap manually i get 4KB 2017-03-11T20:19:51Z ski: would defunctionalization work ? 2017-03-11T20:20:02Z teurastaja: ski: what is it? 2017-03-11T20:20:37Z ski: instead of function pointers, you pass around symbols/tokens/identifiers of some sort 2017-03-11T20:20:50Z ski: possibly bundled with data, to represent a closure 2017-03-11T20:21:22Z ski: instead of calling, you call an `apply' function, which looks into a table to determine which function body should be used 2017-03-11T20:22:05Z teurastaja: ski: sure, if i map all the functions addresses to the linker at compile time 2017-03-11T20:22:12Z ski: this requires collecting the function bodies, at least of local lambdas, into this `apply' 2017-03-11T20:23:09Z ski: hm, and that's impractical or infeasible in your case ? 2017-03-11T20:23:16Z teurastaja: doesnt seem much different from function pointers 2017-03-11T20:23:56Z ski probably didn't get the difficulty 2017-03-11T20:25:57Z teurastaja: im wondering if i make just one function pointer with just a lambda object on the 4KB heap 2017-03-11T20:26:52Z teurastaja: every nth address gets a one argument lambda 2017-03-11T20:27:29Z ski: are you talking about storing the code of the function itself on the heap ? 2017-03-11T20:27:49Z teurastaja: yes 2017-03-11T20:28:10Z ski: why ? are you doing RTCG ? 2017-03-11T20:28:11Z teurastaja: if its always the same function it might work 2017-03-11T20:28:17Z teurastaja: RTCG? 2017-03-11T20:28:23Z ski: Run-Time Code Generation 2017-03-11T20:28:40Z ski: (plain closures shouldn't require this) 2017-03-11T20:29:16Z teurastaja: i think i should just focus on creating a simple lambda calculus to begin with 2017-03-11T20:29:57Z teurastaja: not sure how the scheme evaluation strategy is embedded into lambda calculus though] 2017-03-11T20:30:13Z jmd quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-03-11T20:30:34Z teurastaja: so many evaluation strategies available 2017-03-11T20:31:23Z teurastaja: do you have an example of eager evaluation compatible with scheme for lambda calculus please? 2017-03-11T20:31:39Z emacsomancer joined #scheme 2017-03-11T20:31:41Z ski: if you needed to interface with code which expects to be given a function pointer (only, not bundled with an environment), then i could understand generating a small snippet of code at run-time, to set up the static link before jumping to the (static) code of the body 2017-03-11T20:33:44Z ski isn't sure what teurastaja is asking for 2017-03-11T20:34:01Z cromachina: i got lost at lambda calculus 2017-03-11T20:34:29Z wasamasa: teurastaja: scheme is an implementation of the lambda calculus, not the other way around 2017-03-11T20:34:52Z teurastaja: well, maybe if i start with lambda calculus it would get simpler 2017-03-11T20:35:25Z ski: call-by-value is a common reduction strategy 2017-03-11T20:37:33Z cromachina: start what exactly? making a programming language for the embedded device? 2017-03-11T20:39:05Z teurastaja: yes 2017-03-11T20:51:53Z civodul joined #scheme 2017-03-11T20:54:28Z webshinra quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-03-11T20:54:41Z teurastaja quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-03-11T20:56:13Z gravicappa quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-03-11T21:06:15Z webshinra joined #scheme 2017-03-11T21:07:35Z jeapostrophe joined #scheme 2017-03-11T21:07:35Z jeapostrophe quit (Changing host) 2017-03-11T21:07:35Z jeapostrophe joined #scheme 2017-03-11T21:12:22Z jeapostrophe quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2017-03-11T21:16:44Z fantazo joined #scheme 2017-03-11T21:18:17Z jeapostrophe joined #scheme 2017-03-11T21:18:17Z jeapostrophe quit (Changing host) 2017-03-11T21:18:17Z jeapostrophe joined #scheme 2017-03-11T21:26:02Z kuribas quit (Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)) 2017-03-11T21:28:58Z kjeldahl joined #scheme 2017-03-11T21:31:05Z JoshS joined #scheme 2017-03-11T21:44:18Z bjz joined #scheme 2017-03-11T21:46:20Z cross joined #scheme 2017-03-11T21:58:05Z jeapostrophe quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-03-11T22:09:57Z jeapostrophe joined #scheme 2017-03-11T22:09:57Z jeapostrophe quit (Changing host) 2017-03-11T22:09:57Z jeapostrophe joined #scheme 2017-03-11T22:10:20Z webshinra quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-03-11T22:10:37Z webshinra joined #scheme 2017-03-11T22:15:08Z jeapostrophe quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-03-11T22:18:14Z nilg joined #scheme 2017-03-11T22:29:06Z wtetzner quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-03-11T22:32:24Z emacsomancer quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-03-11T22:35:00Z bjz quit (Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. 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2017-03-13T18:48:47Z webshinra joined #scheme 2017-03-13T18:59:27Z arbv quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-03-13T19:01:04Z arbv joined #scheme 2017-03-13T19:04:15Z jeapostrophe joined #scheme 2017-03-13T19:09:19Z jeapostrophe quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2017-03-13T19:27:57Z oleo quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-03-13T19:29:22Z stepnem joined #scheme 2017-03-13T19:41:13Z boojinks joined #scheme 2017-03-13T19:51:04Z stepnem quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-03-13T19:53:55Z bjz_ joined #scheme 2017-03-13T19:54:54Z bjz quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2017-03-13T19:56:55Z stepnem joined #scheme 2017-03-13T19:59:00Z boojinks quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.7) 2017-03-13T20:05:03Z jeapostrophe joined #scheme 2017-03-13T20:07:49Z TheLemonMan joined #scheme 2017-03-13T20:09:52Z jeapostrophe quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-03-13T20:12:40Z gravicappa quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-03-13T20:19:17Z namosca joined #scheme 2017-03-13T20:19:21Z namosca: I really like Common Lisp and also OCAML, so I am wondering if any of you know an easy to follow (for real newbies) tutorial on how to make a very simple Lisp interpreter in OCAML? 2017-03-13T20:22:46Z wasamasa: https://github.com/kanaka/mal 2017-03-13T20:23:08Z wasamasa: language-agnostic tutorial on how to make an interpreter for mini-clojure 2017-03-13T20:26:27Z wasamasa: there is of course an ocaml implementation in the repository, but it would be cheating for you to look at it 2017-03-13T20:28:10Z aeth: Wait? MAL is for a Clojure-like Lisp? I never knew that. Yuck. 2017-03-13T20:28:20Z wasamasa: why, yes 2017-03-13T20:28:25Z wasamasa: sooo modern 2017-03-13T20:28:28Z aeth: Every modern Lisp deviates too much. 2017-03-13T20:28:38Z kori: fro what 2017-03-13T20:28:40Z kori: from what* 2017-03-13T20:28:43Z wasamasa: yeah, shame on them for not following the maclisp tradition 2017-03-13T20:28:46Z aeth: From (historical/Common) Lisp and from Scheme 2017-03-13T20:28:54Z kori: is that not what lisp is truly about 2017-03-13T20:28:57Z aeth: historical e.g. Emacs Lisp or Lisp Machine Lisp 2017-03-13T20:29:02Z kori: deviation? 2017-03-13T20:29:02Z wasamasa: kori: being different? 2017-03-13T20:29:07Z wasamasa: kori: I agree :> 2017-03-13T20:29:21Z aeth: No, traditional Lisp has a common core like e.g. mutable cons cells to construct s-expressions with. 2017-03-13T20:29:23Z kori: I mean, if its not gonna deviate, just kill the sexprs and metaprogramming 2017-03-13T20:29:23Z wasamasa: implementing MAL in picolisp sure was something 2017-03-13T20:29:28Z aeth: Modern Lisp is all bets are off except parens 2017-03-13T20:29:31Z aeth: And macros 2017-03-13T20:29:42Z aeth: Wait until there's a macroless Lisp. 2017-03-13T20:29:47Z wasamasa: well, there is 2017-03-13T20:29:53Z wasamasa: picolisp uses fexprs 2017-03-13T20:30:03Z aeth: See? See?! 2017-03-13T20:30:05Z namosca: I also saw this here: https://github.com/zick/OCamLisp. its just one file, so maybe its quite easy to understand 2017-03-13T20:30:14Z wasamasa: anyway, this "No true Lisp" sickens me 2017-03-13T20:30:27Z kori: to me the one true lisp is scheme but 2017-03-13T20:30:33Z kori: i can see the appeal in other lisps 2017-03-13T20:30:40Z kori: its fine 2017-03-13T20:31:00Z wasamasa: even something as crappy as interim's lisp beats having to program an OS in C 2017-03-13T20:31:22Z aeth: Scheme is basically like a subset of Common Lisp except for #t/#f/'() vs. t/nil, call/cc, modern names, guaranteed recursion, a different macro system, and a handful of other differences. 2017-03-13T20:31:28Z wasamasa: lol 2017-03-13T20:31:36Z wasamasa: in other words, very different 2017-03-13T20:31:53Z civodul joined #scheme 2017-03-13T20:31:56Z aeth: Not *that* different. The basic, core data structures are basically the same. 2017-03-13T20:31:59Z wasamasa: just accept that you're twisting that true scotsman around until it's bleeding dry 2017-03-13T20:32:01Z aeth: And the basic way things work are basically the same. 2017-03-13T20:32:01Z wasamasa: uhuh, sure 2017-03-13T20:32:15Z wasamasa: (map add1 ...) 2017-03-13T20:32:16Z wasamasa: oh wait 2017-03-13T20:32:24Z wasamasa: that is a huge difference 2017-03-13T20:32:35Z wasamasa: why can you just pass functions around instead of some references to them 2017-03-13T20:32:44Z aeth: The main difference between Scheme and Common Lisp is that in Scheme all iteration is syntactic sugar on top of recursion and in Common Lisp all iteration is syntactic sugar on top of gotos contained within tagbody or implicit tagbodies. 2017-03-13T20:33:06Z aeth: The main compatibility difference is #t/#f/'() vs. t/nil. 2017-03-13T20:33:10Z wasamasa buries aeth under a pile of SICP books 2017-03-13T20:34:21Z aeth: lisp-1 vs. lisp-2 isn't *that* big of a difference. In practice that means funcall and #' in CL vs "lst" or "l" instead of "list" as variable names in Scheme. 2017-03-13T20:34:59Z aeth: Pick your inconvenience. 2017-03-13T20:35:46Z wasamasa: the CL community is a big one 2017-03-13T20:35:47Z aeth: It's very useful to have a function, a type, and a local variable all with the same name in CL (yes, it's not really lisp-2 because those are three namespaces, and there aren't just those 3) 2017-03-13T20:36:06Z aeth: It's also useful to say (lambda (x) (x 42)) 2017-03-13T20:36:06Z badkins quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-03-13T20:36:19Z aeth: So no matter what path you go down, you're going to be annoyed somewhere 2017-03-13T20:36:19Z aeth: imo 2017-03-13T20:36:55Z cemerick quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-03-13T20:37:05Z wasamasa: but I'm sure I can just spin that into some narrative of the CL community being essentially the conglomerate of all scheme and communities 2017-03-13T20:37:07Z wasamasa: so that's OK 2017-03-13T20:37:25Z aeth: The communities are different, yes 2017-03-13T20:37:29Z aeth: But roughly overlapping. 2017-03-13T20:37:42Z wasamasa: right, otherwise we wouldn't have this pointless discussion in here 2017-03-13T20:38:02Z wasamasa: I mean, why are you even here, in the territory of this subset of CL language 2017-03-13T20:38:24Z wasamasa: are you possibly writing yet another scheme implementation??? 2017-03-13T20:38:38Z aeth: (1) It's not quite a subset of CL because it has some features CL doesn't have, (2) Scheme wasn't written before CL and in fact Scheme influenced CL rather than the other way around 2017-03-13T20:39:25Z aeth: But in terms of feature set, Scheme being the smaller language, it's easier for the sake of modelling to call it a subset of CL with different names, Lisp-1 instead of Lisp-2 (so obvious I forgot to list it), and then with the important features added, at least imo 2017-03-13T20:39:57Z aeth: If Scheme didn't have a separate #f from '() it would be absolutely trivial to write a Scheme in CL. 2017-03-13T20:40:25Z wasamasa waits for pjb to demo lisp-intersection.l 2017-03-13T20:40:28Z qu1j0t3: wasn't that an exercise in PAIP? 2017-03-13T20:40:40Z aeth: You would basically just rename the identifiers, use one namespace for all variables, provide a minimal runtime to make sure TCO and call/cc work, and add hygienic macros to this Scheme. 2017-03-13T20:41:02Z aeth: #f separate from '() makes it a bit trickier, because key to saving work is representing Scheme s-exps as CL s-exps 2017-03-13T20:41:24Z aeth: Which means now either your false has to be different, or you need to hack around the list functions. 2017-03-13T20:42:57Z aeth: But a lot of the fundamental core of the two languages are essentially identical, such as the numerical tower. 2017-03-13T20:43:21Z aeth: And a lot of the rest is a subset of CL functionality, such as Scheme's three vectors (string, vector, byte-vector) vs. CL's many 2017-03-13T20:43:46Z wasamasa: tell me aeth, why the fuck are you in this channel 2017-03-13T20:44:24Z aeth: Why do you think I hold these positions unless I have tried several times to implement Scheme in CL? :-p 2017-03-13T20:44:49Z wasamasa: because you're a fool wasting their time reinventing pseudoscheme 2017-03-13T20:45:05Z aeth: The problem, of course, is that Scheme's minimalism is a deceptive kind of minimalism. It's a simple language in its feature set, but the few features provided aren't always simple. 2017-03-13T20:45:31Z wasamasa: so, that's the only reason you're here? 2017-03-13T20:45:41Z wasamasa: to see if you can succeed this time with pseudoscheme 2.0? 2017-03-13T20:46:05Z aeth: wasamasa: (1) Pseudoscheme is r4rs and has been dead for a while, (2) Pseudoscheme isn't Scheme, it's a pseudo-Scheme. You can't just transpile to CL, you need a minimal runtime to get call/cc working. 2017-03-13T20:46:17Z aeth: Also, guaranteed proper tail recursion needs that runtime, too. 2017-03-13T20:46:39Z wasamasa: to paraphrase felix' talk about scheme implementation techniques, "You could just write CL" 2017-03-13T20:46:52Z wasamasa: so, no matter how you outdo it, I don't see any sense in it 2017-03-13T20:46:57Z namosca quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-03-13T20:47:18Z aeth: Sandboxing. 2017-03-13T20:47:40Z aeth: r7rs-small is a minimal, modular language. You should be able to use it as a sandboxed scripting language within CL, which would give it some minimal usefulness. 2017-03-13T20:47:50Z wasamasa: slide 24 on http://www.call-with-current-continuation.org/scheme-implementation-techniques.pdf 2017-03-13T20:48:08Z wasamasa: "­ You might as well code in CL (or use Pseudoscheme)" 2017-03-13T20:49:05Z aeth: Zero-cost tail calls on a compiler target high level language are trivial. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trampoline_(computing)#High-level_programming 2017-03-13T20:49:29Z wasamasa: lol 2017-03-13T20:49:57Z aeth: The hard parts are continuations and hygienic macros. 2017-03-13T20:50:04Z wasamasa: anyway, I'm apparently the only one who finds it funny someone doesn't see the utility in writing scheme, but in writing an environment for others to write scheme 2017-03-13T20:50:14Z wasamasa: this seems to be a recurring topic, judging from #lispgames 2017-03-13T20:51:02Z aeth: Essentially, though, you wouldn't run Scheme functions directly like CL functions, you'd run them within one giant loop that ensures that the right things happen. 2017-03-13T20:51:15Z wasamasa: where the regulars would rather write a 3d game engine someone will hopefully use than delivering an actual game 2017-03-13T20:52:57Z aeth: This is different than that, though. A game engine requires years of work, pretty much no matter what. 2017-03-13T20:53:05Z aeth: A Scheme can be and has been written in 48 hours. 2017-03-13T20:53:12Z aeth: (You just need years of experience to get to that point.) 2017-03-13T20:56:09Z aeth: wasamasa: There is one advantage to writing what is essentially a 21st century r7rs Psueoscheme, though. If you can define Scheme procedures and libraries from CL, that means you have access to every library in Quicklisp as long as someone writes such a one-CL-file wrapper for that library. 2017-03-13T20:56:35Z aeth: Which immediately, once that Scheme is complete, gives it one of the largest sets of available libraries for any Scheme. 2017-03-13T20:56:40Z wasamasa: the question is of course, who would possibly do that work 2017-03-13T20:56:56Z wasamasa: meanwhile, clojure people do this diligently for everything java (and javascript, too) 2017-03-13T20:57:05Z namosca joined #scheme 2017-03-13T20:57:11Z namosca left #scheme 2017-03-13T20:57:36Z aeth: You could probably automate the wrapping process. Someone has done that for C libraries in CL. 2017-03-13T20:58:00Z wasamasa: I'd rather not have exported segfaults :> 2017-03-13T20:59:15Z jcowan: "I toyed with anarchy once, but then I found there were syndicalist anarchists and deviationist anarchists, and for all I know syndicalist deviationist anarchists. There's as much anarchy in anarchy as in any political philosophy." 2017-03-13T20:59:48Z wasamasa: that way is the way 2017-03-13T21:00:11Z wasamasa: great, now I'm programming cobol in java, WHYYY 2017-03-13T21:00:20Z aeth: CL is a very good compilation target, though. Much better than Java because it is much less opinionated than Java. (Which is probably why people compile to the JVM, not to Java, most of the time) 2017-03-13T21:00:41Z edgar-rft: (defpackage #:argh (:import-from #:C #:segfault)) 2017-03-13T21:00:43Z jcowan: Scheme macros really aren't a problem, because they are a front end feature that can be (and are) compiled away. 2017-03-13T21:00:48Z aeth: e.g. Brainfuck is trivial to compile to CL... just a while loop (several ways to do that) and a handful of functions. 2017-03-13T21:00:55Z jcowan: Continuations are another story. 2017-03-13T21:01:24Z aeth: jcowan: Yes, which is why cl-scheme is on pause until I can find a way to implement continuations properly. I could probably hack together one of several ways, but I don't want to hurt arithmetic performance in the process. 2017-03-13T21:01:24Z jcowan: Is there any specific open-source CL that provides them as an extension to ANSI CL? Such a translator wouldn't have to work on *every* CL, after all. 2017-03-13T21:02:23Z aeth: The wrong kind of transpiling with continuations could hide from the CL compiler something trivial like (+ 1 2 (* 3 4)) 2017-03-13T21:02:43Z aeth: And numerical representations are *almost* identical between the languages 2017-03-13T21:05:09Z aeth: jcowan: I am probably only going to officially support SBCL, CCL, and ECL. 2017-03-13T21:05:36Z aeth: I'll probably add support for Clasp (like ECL, but targeting LLVM C++ instead of GCC C) when it's ready. 2017-03-13T21:05:45Z jeapostrophe joined #scheme 2017-03-13T21:06:01Z jcowan: aeth: RABBIT I think had a feature for figuring out which expressions were "trivial" and leaving them to be executed by MacLisp 2017-03-13T21:06:20Z igajsin quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-03-13T21:06:30Z aeth: I was considering a define-optimizable-scheme-procedure or define-trivial-scheme-procedure or something 2017-03-13T21:06:40Z aeth: If you mean it had an automated way of doing that, interesting 2017-03-13T21:07:08Z jcowan: You really don't need to mark it, you can determine it in a single bottom-up scan. Assuming whole-program compiling is OK, which I hope it is. 2017-03-13T21:08:21Z aeth: Right now, I just have a simple proof of concept interpreter for most of the very trivial built-ins (most of the standard-procedures section of r7rs.pdf, and a few macros like if) 2017-03-13T21:08:35Z aeth: I am going to rewrite that to go for a compiler approach, though. It actually simplifies some things. 2017-03-13T21:08:49Z jcowan: Oh yes. 2017-03-13T21:09:06Z jcowan: RABBIT is a marvel of clarity compared to the MacLisp hosted Scheme interpreter. 2017-03-13T21:09:30Z jcowan: aeth: Do your chosen CLs all provide tail recursion? 2017-03-13T21:09:43Z aeth: I tested out interpreting vs. transpiling by writing a Smallfuck (subset of Brainfuck with bit-arrays instead of byte-arrays and no IO) interpreter and compiler... and the compiler was a simple macro and the interpreter was... well, it had to keep track of state because of the while loops that the -fuck language family supports 2017-03-13T21:10:42Z aeth: It makes sense that a transpiler is in effect just a macro (with string-based languages I implement it as a stream from a given string... obviously s-expression languages wouldn't use strings) 2017-03-13T21:10:56Z jeapostrophe quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-03-13T21:11:08Z aeth: jcowan: I think tail recursion rules differ based on declared optimization levels, in at least some of them. 2017-03-13T21:11:17Z aeth: e.g. I think (debug 3) would mean no tail recursion 2017-03-13T21:11:30Z aeth: They also might not have tail recursion in every place Scheme does 2017-03-13T21:11:55Z aeth: I could just run all Scheme functions within a very simple do loop and use the trampoline/thunk method described on Wikipedia and in a few other places. 2017-03-13T21:12:12Z aeth: I benchmarked it and in SBCL, the trampoline added no overhead vs writing it tail recursively in SBCL 2017-03-13T21:12:37Z jcowan: I strongly recommending reading Quux's thesis 2017-03-13T21:12:38Z jcowan: ftp://publications.ai.mit.edu/ai-publications/pdf/AITR-474.pdf 2017-03-13T21:12:53Z jcowan: especially the annotated listing of the compiler 2017-03-13T21:13:57Z aeth: How do you think I should implement continuations? I brought up continuation passing style in here iirc about a year ago, but whoever I was speaking to said that was a bad idea because it hurts debugging 2017-03-13T21:20:42Z badkins joined #scheme 2017-03-13T21:21:57Z aeth: And in case anyone is wondering about compiling a language via a Common Lisp macro, it can literally be this easy (well, this is probably the easiest, given how simple the Smallfuck language is, simpler than even Brainfuck). http://paste.lisp.org/+7BE3 2017-03-13T21:22:26Z jcowan: I wouldn't think that compiling Scheme as a macro was either simple or desirable 2017-03-13T21:22:45Z aeth: Observant readers would notice that most of the work in compiling to CL is essentially writing a read function for that language. 2017-03-13T21:23:35Z aeth: jcowan: No, what should probably happen for a real language is instead of writing a pseudo-reader, literally just write a reader, and read in the source file. 2017-03-13T21:24:27Z aeth: Interestingly, with Scheme, I think the reader could later be translated into Scheme itself. 2017-03-13T21:25:11Z aeth: The macro in my link does essentially nothing but provide a character stream to a read-like function 2017-03-13T21:28:33Z jcowan: Oh, okay, that makes sense 2017-03-13T21:28:37Z aeth: I guess with Scheme, it could be read, and then written to a temporary .lisp file and then compiled to the CL implementation-specific fasl. 2017-03-13T21:28:42Z aeth: using compile-file 2017-03-13T21:29:17Z jcowan: That's basically what RABBIT does, yes. 2017-03-13T21:30:48Z aeth: I guess this is one reason why Scheme and CL are so similar (yeah, I'll never change my mind there, wasamasa) 2017-03-13T21:31:04Z wasamasa rolls eyes ad infinitum 2017-03-13T21:31:27Z aeth: some Lisps are basically just a group of space-separated things surrounded by top level parentheses :-p 2017-03-13T21:33:45Z bjz_ quit (Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. 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TinyScheme is probably most widely embedded in different programs, but not too many humans use it as a general-purpose Scheme 2017-03-14T02:28:10Z adu quit (Quit: adu) 2017-03-14T02:28:47Z akkad: humans 2017-03-14T02:30:30Z wtetzner quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-03-14T02:31:00Z dTal: is the subtle implication there that octopuses might, or even aliens 2017-03-14T02:45:25Z enderby left #scheme 2017-03-14T02:50:18Z vtomole quit (Quit: Page closed) 2017-03-14T02:52:18Z noethics: if it's so embedded where the opengl bindings at 2017-03-14T02:52:23Z noethics: :< 2017-03-14T02:56:51Z noethics: https://github.com/stephanh42/RacketGL/blob/master/opengl/main.rkt#L35 2017-03-14T02:56:55Z noethics: wut 2017-03-14T03:01:17Z jaziz joined #scheme 2017-03-14T03:03:53Z daviid quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-03-14T03:07:04Z lritter quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-03-14T03:16:27Z adu joined #scheme 2017-03-14T03:17:29Z adu quit (Client Quit) 2017-03-14T03:23:05Z jcowan quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-03-14T03:23:39Z jcowan joined #scheme 2017-03-14T03:28:53Z jeapostrophe quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-03-14T03:30:57Z lambda-smith joined #scheme 2017-03-14T03:45:16Z manualcrank quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.7) 2017-03-14T03:52:24Z edgar-rft: akkad: ponzi scheme 2017-03-14T03:54:44Z lambda-smith quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2017-03-14T03:56:33Z takitus: edgar-rft: Great name for an implementation. I wonder if it’s taken. 2017-03-14T03:57:21Z ArneBab joined #scheme 2017-03-14T03:57:26Z akkad: edgar-rft: google is no use there.. :P 2017-03-14T03:58:50Z edgar-rft: akkad: is used by most humans 2017-03-14T03:59:36Z edgar-rft: ...at least more than any scheme (programming language) implementation 2017-03-14T04:01:38Z ArneBab_ quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-03-14T04:07:07Z akkad: nice 2017-03-14T04:11:01Z badkins quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-03-14T04:11:21Z emacsomancer quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-03-14T04:24:57Z jeapostrophe joined #scheme 2017-03-14T04:24:57Z jeapostrophe quit (Changing host) 2017-03-14T04:24:57Z jeapostrophe joined #scheme 2017-03-14T04:30:22Z jeapostrophe quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2017-03-14T04:33:38Z pie_ joined #scheme 2017-03-14T04:38:52Z cemerick quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-03-14T04:39:20Z cemerick joined #scheme 2017-03-14T04:56:46Z takitus quit (Quit: bye) 2017-03-14T05:22:14Z jonaslund joined #scheme 2017-03-14T05:23:29Z pie_ quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-03-14T05:23:50Z jaziz quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-03-14T05:26:04Z jeapostrophe joined #scheme 2017-03-14T05:31:34Z jeapostrophe quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2017-03-14T05:34:08Z igajsin joined #scheme 2017-03-14T05:39:03Z pie_ joined #scheme 2017-03-14T05:57:59Z gravicappa joined #scheme 2017-03-14T06:07:48Z jmd quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-03-14T06:23:20Z jonaslund quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-03-14T06:27:50Z jeapostrophe joined #scheme 2017-03-14T06:27:50Z jeapostrophe quit (Changing host) 2017-03-14T06:27:50Z jeapostrophe joined #scheme 2017-03-14T06:32:52Z jeapostrophe quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-03-14T06:57:07Z jaziz joined #scheme 2017-03-14T07:18:01Z jonaslund joined #scheme 2017-03-14T07:20:57Z wasamasa: https://clang.llvm.org/docs/AttributeReference.html#disable-tail-calls-clang-disable-tail-calls 2017-03-14T07:21:09Z wasamasa: it's official, clang declares solidarity with scheme 2017-03-14T07:21:51Z wasamasa: "We don't want to intrude into the perception of only functional languages doing TCO, so we've made it an opt-out thing in our optimizer" 2017-03-14T07:24:31Z bjz joined #scheme 2017-03-14T07:24:50Z jonaslund quit (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.92-rdmsoft [XULRunner 35.0.1/20150122214805]) 2017-03-14T07:28:36Z jeapostrophe joined #scheme 2017-03-14T07:28:36Z jeapostrophe quit (Changing host) 2017-03-14T07:28:36Z jeapostrophe joined #scheme 2017-03-14T07:33:46Z jeapostrophe quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-03-14T07:44:28Z akkad: is snow the most popular portable scheme library? 2017-03-14T07:46:53Z wasamasa: I'd say slib is 2017-03-14T07:47:19Z akkad: wasamasa: thanks 2017-03-14T07:51:24Z sz0 joined #scheme 2017-03-14T07:56:13Z wasamasa: but that's just because it's old and huge 2017-03-14T07:57:18Z akkad: ahh. just looking for something to help my quicklisp withdrawel 2017-03-14T08:01:24Z lambda-11235 joined #scheme 2017-03-14T08:02:03Z aeth: quicklisp withdrawal? 2017-03-14T08:04:02Z akkad: long story 2017-03-14T08:04:35Z aeth: http://paste.lisp.org/+7BEY 2017-03-14T08:04:37Z aeth: <_< 2017-03-14T08:04:38Z aeth: >_> 2017-03-14T08:05:09Z akkad: :P 2017-03-14T08:05:15Z akkad: hit my limit with cl. 2017-03-14T08:06:04Z akkad: http://github.com/ober/metis end result was real fast... but I was able to get simple parts working faster on scheme. 2017-03-14T08:06:51Z akkad: aeth: sbcl only? 2017-03-14T08:06:57Z aeth: I can see why you'd have a Quicklisp withdrawal. That's using more direct dependencies than my game engine is. 2017-03-14T08:08:09Z akkad: well it helped me figure stuff out, and after diving back into racket/scheme i found it sexy. 2017-03-14T08:08:14Z aeth: akkad: I target SBCL, CCL, and ECL in that priority order with everything that I write. I might have to drop ECL. It's much slower and not as smart, which can cause problems with my very clever (too clever) programs. 2017-03-14T08:08:31Z akkad: i have unused copies of LW and allegro 2017-03-14T08:09:30Z aeth: akkad: cl-scheme has been on hold for about a year until a clever way to do continuations hits me. 2017-03-14T08:09:40Z akkad: in the end streams/gray streams/flexistreams and sequences was just too much to deal with. 2017-03-14T08:09:52Z akkad: ahh 2017-03-14T08:10:16Z akkad: how well does it perform? 2017-03-14T08:11:16Z akkad: plist is the answer. :P 2017-03-14T08:11:36Z safe quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-03-14T08:12:35Z cibs quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-03-14T08:14:53Z cibs joined #scheme 2017-03-14T08:27:55Z stepnem joined #scheme 2017-03-14T08:29:18Z jeapostrophe joined #scheme 2017-03-14T08:33:10Z amz3 quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2017-03-14T08:34:35Z jeapostrophe quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-03-14T08:38:06Z lloda joined #scheme 2017-03-14T09:06:04Z lambda-11235 quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.7) 2017-03-14T09:15:40Z noethics quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-03-14T09:26:50Z gravicappa quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2017-03-14T09:30:05Z jeapostrophe joined #scheme 2017-03-14T09:35:15Z jeapostrophe quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-03-14T10:10:18Z civodul joined #scheme 2017-03-14T10:27:01Z raduom joined #scheme 2017-03-14T10:30:50Z jeapostrophe joined #scheme 2017-03-14T10:33:00Z jcowan__ joined #scheme 2017-03-14T10:34:52Z jcowan quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-03-14T10:35:50Z jeapostrophe quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2017-03-14T11:02:57Z raduom quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-03-14T11:26:26Z jeapostrophe joined #scheme 2017-03-14T11:26:26Z jeapostrophe quit (Changing host) 2017-03-14T11:26:26Z jeapostrophe joined #scheme 2017-03-14T11:49:17Z shdeng quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-03-14T11:56:16Z jeapostrophe quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-03-14T12:09:36Z jeapostrophe joined #scheme 2017-03-14T12:09:36Z jeapostrophe quit (Changing host) 2017-03-14T12:09:36Z jeapostrophe joined #scheme 2017-03-14T12:37:00Z raduom joined #scheme 2017-03-14T12:40:44Z jeapostrophe quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2017-03-14T12:41:36Z jeapostrophe joined #scheme 2017-03-14T12:51:36Z nomicflux joined #scheme 2017-03-14T12:51:40Z cemerick quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-03-14T12:52:28Z cemerick joined #scheme 2017-03-14T12:55:08Z manualcrank joined #scheme 2017-03-14T12:56:30Z jeapostrophe quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-03-14T13:01:30Z cibs quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2017-03-14T13:03:15Z cibs joined #scheme 2017-03-14T13:04:25Z jeapostrophe joined #scheme 2017-03-14T13:05:19Z cemerick quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-03-14T13:06:28Z jaziz quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-03-14T13:06:40Z bjz quit (Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. 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This way string processing was done by manipulating lists of integers, but very slow, as anyone can imagine. :-) 2017-03-14T18:10:21Z jmd`: I had to do something similar when playing with guile-ncurses 2017-03-14T18:10:33Z jeapostrophe joined #scheme 2017-03-14T18:11:05Z ertes quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-03-14T18:11:19Z alexshendi joined #scheme 2017-03-14T18:22:33Z tessier quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2017-03-14T18:22:44Z jmd` is now known as jmd 2017-03-14T18:24:03Z tessier joined #scheme 2017-03-14T18:24:03Z tessier quit (Changing host) 2017-03-14T18:24:03Z tessier joined #scheme 2017-03-14T18:30:08Z tessier quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-03-14T18:30:52Z tessier joined #scheme 2017-03-14T18:30:53Z tessier quit (Changing host) 2017-03-14T18:30:53Z tessier joined #scheme 2017-03-14T18:34:38Z marcoecc joined #scheme 2017-03-14T18:50:17Z alexshendi2 joined #scheme 2017-03-14T18:51:58Z alexshendi quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2017-03-14T18:53:47Z adu joined #scheme 2017-03-14T18:54:25Z TCZ joined #scheme 2017-03-14T18:59:30Z jeapostrophe quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-03-14T19:00:41Z jeapostrophe joined #scheme 2017-03-14T19:05:29Z TCZ quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-03-14T19:17:28Z lambda-smith quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-03-14T19:20:58Z lritter joined #scheme 2017-03-14T19:22:18Z amz3 joined #scheme 2017-03-14T19:24:12Z wuehlmaus joined #scheme 2017-03-14T19:26:04Z wuehlmaus: hi, schemers. how can i use (read) in chez scheme to read in strings without putting in "". or can i use another function to read in strings in chez scheme? 2017-03-14T19:35:29Z gravicappa joined #scheme 2017-03-14T19:38:21Z aeth: Okay, informal poll. Should cl-scheme be renamed Imperial Airship Scheme? 2017-03-14T19:40:44Z aeth: The best part is that the logo could be an airship with either end bolded to look like ( ) 2017-03-14T19:41:00Z aeth: I best you didn't know that the Lisp family of languages represented their source code with airships. 2017-03-14T19:46:25Z jeapostrophe quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-03-14T19:49:13Z adu quit (Quit: adu) 2017-03-14T19:52:43Z adu joined #scheme 2017-03-14T19:52:49Z kori: aeth: yes 2017-03-14T19:52:52Z kori: actually 2017-03-14T19:52:57Z kori: call it imperial spaceship scheme 2017-03-14T19:53:09Z kori: and make references to starwars and the empire and the dark side of the force 2017-03-14T19:53:29Z kori: and to imperial airship scheme of course 2017-03-14T19:56:43Z wuehlmaus: to answer my own question: i think i will use (get-line) which is in Chez Scheme. 2017-03-14T19:58:40Z jmd quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-03-14T20:01:36Z akkad: can you gunzip files, parse json, and store them in a db with the packages available in slib or snow? 2017-03-14T20:02:41Z bjz joined #scheme 2017-03-14T20:02:42Z nomicflux quit (Quit: nomicflux) 2017-03-14T20:04:02Z civodul joined #scheme 2017-03-14T20:09:29Z adu quit (Quit: adu) 2017-03-14T20:13:00Z edgar-rft: aeth: I think there's too much air in your head. 2017-03-14T20:20:02Z alexshendi2 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-03-14T20:21:40Z TheLemonMan joined #scheme 2017-03-14T20:24:53Z CORDIC ROFL 2017-03-14T20:26:08Z kori: damn that was brutal edgar-rft 2017-03-14T20:27:43Z cemerick quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-03-14T20:28:44Z wasamasa: savage 2017-03-14T20:31:53Z aeth: edgar-rft: yes, and the air is mostly hydrogen... how else do you think I float? 2017-03-14T20:33:24Z edgar-rft: aeth: oh, sorry, I aways thought that you integer, but now I know you float. 2017-03-14T20:36:17Z edgar-rft: aeth: but I think that when you say that you float, that would be inexact 2017-03-14T20:36:53Z aeth: edgar-rft: I'm actually an arbitrary-precision floating point approximation of e, i.e. "ae" where a stands for arbitrary and "e" is obviously e... to calculate up to the aeth digit n you just call (aeth n) 2017-03-14T20:37:24Z aeth: oh sorry, the aeth digit of ae would be (aeth aeth) I guess 2017-03-14T20:37:50Z aeth: or wait, the nth digit of ae is abbreviated (aeth n) 2017-03-14T20:37:51Z aeth: there you go 2017-03-14T20:37:55Z aeth: I knew there was a way to make the API work 2017-03-14T20:38:05Z aeth: oh sorry, up to the nth digit 2017-03-14T20:38:19Z aeth: (aeth 1) => 2.7 2017-03-14T20:38:49Z aeth: (aeth 2) => 2.72; (aeth 3) = 2.718; (aeth 4) = 2.7183 etc. 2017-03-14T20:39:10Z aeth: (aeth 0) => 2 (obviously) 2017-03-14T20:39:37Z edgar-rft: I assume that with API you mean the Aeth Programming Incapability 2017-03-14T20:39:43Z aeth: no 2017-03-14T20:39:49Z aeth: Aeth Programming *Incoherently* 2017-03-14T20:39:55Z aeth: It works, it's just no one can understand it 2017-03-14T20:41:29Z edgar-rft: aeth: sorry, I don't understand it :-) 2017-03-14T20:43:32Z edgar-rft: aeth: can you explain it, even if you didn't understand it (assuming aeth is a subset of "no one")? 2017-03-14T20:43:39Z pie_ joined #scheme 2017-03-14T20:44:42Z edgar-rft is a subset of the empty set 2017-03-14T20:45:25Z jeapostrophe joined #scheme 2017-03-14T20:45:25Z jeapostrophe quit (Changing host) 2017-03-14T20:45:25Z jeapostrophe joined #scheme 2017-03-14T20:45:37Z aeth: edgar-rft: I have a marvelous proof, which this IRC line is too small to contain. 2017-03-14T20:45:50Z aeth: (expect an answer in 358 years, by someone else) 2017-03-14T20:46:16Z edgar-rft: bah, I'm tired of cheap excuses 2017-03-14T20:46:29Z aeth: hey if it worked for Fermat... 2017-03-14T20:47:03Z kori: LMAO 2017-03-14T20:48:46Z vydd joined #scheme 2017-03-14T20:48:46Z vydd quit (Changing host) 2017-03-14T20:48:46Z vydd joined #scheme 2017-03-14T20:51:56Z edgar-rft: aeth: Fermat used cheap excuses? 2017-03-14T20:55:22Z kori: edgar-rft: he did use a cheap excuse yeah 2017-03-14T20:55:30Z kori: "I have the proof for this but this margin is too small" 2017-03-14T20:55:49Z kori: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fermat%27s_Last_Theorem 2017-03-14T20:56:08Z kori: This theorem was first conjectured by Pierre de Fermat in 1637 in the margin of a copy of Arithmetica where he claimed he had a proof that was too large to fit in the margin. The first successful proof was released in 1994 by Andrew Wiles, and formally published in 1995, after 358 years of effort by mathematicians. 2017-03-14T21:05:26Z edgar-rft: kori: Ah, I understand now. I'm obviously once again badly under-educated :-) 2017-03-14T21:05:26Z edgar-rft: There seems to be some president right now who obviously uses some very similar principle of cheap blabbering, but I doubt very much that any proof of his concepts will ever happen. 2017-03-14T21:05:54Z edgar-rft: ...or I hope at least. 2017-03-14T21:07:59Z wuehlmaus left #scheme 2017-03-14T21:08:47Z aeth: duh 2017-03-14T21:08:51Z aeth: because he doesn't have imperial airships 2017-03-14T21:09:12Z edgar-rft: but he has air in his head, like you 2017-03-14T21:10:22Z edgar-rft: are you brothers? 2017-03-14T21:11:59Z bjz_ joined #scheme 2017-03-14T21:12:13Z edgar-rft: oh, now he's upset 2017-03-14T21:12:43Z kori: aeth: by the way I'm really proud of my "imperial spaceship scheme" suggestion 2017-03-14T21:13:16Z bjz_ quit (Client Quit) 2017-03-14T21:13:35Z qu1j0t3: edgar-rft: what else could your purpose have been? 2017-03-14T21:13:56Z bjz quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-03-14T21:15:22Z edgar-rft: qu1j0t3: join #lispcafe if want to read many more interesting discussions between aeth and edgar :-) 2017-03-14T21:15:57Z aeth: kori: going from an Airship to a Spaceship is too close to going from an Airplane to a Starship, which has been done before. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jefferson_Starship 2017-03-14T21:16:21Z aeth: (They were in the Star Wars Holiday Special.) 2017-03-14T21:16:44Z gravicappa quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-03-14T21:17:00Z edgar-rft: aeth: you made my day holy 2017-03-14T21:20:26Z alphor quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-03-14T21:20:29Z edgar-rft: what means first it was a normal day, and now it has holes! 2017-03-14T21:25:07Z daviid joined #scheme 2017-03-14T21:25:31Z daviid is now known as Guest39912 2017-03-14T21:27:58Z Guest39912 is now known as daviid 2017-03-14T21:32:26Z jcowan: Looking for [scheme language] usually filters bogus references out 2017-03-14T21:33:13Z Menche joined #scheme 2017-03-14T21:36:25Z qu1j0t3: somebody reboot jcowan 2017-03-14T21:40:04Z jeapostrophe quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-03-14T21:41:37Z jcowan__ joined #scheme 2017-03-14T21:42:31Z amz3 quit (Quit: Artufath) 2017-03-14T21:44:45Z jcowan quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2017-03-14T21:50:45Z jeapostrophe joined #scheme 2017-03-14T21:51:45Z wtetzner joined #scheme 2017-03-14T21:54:10Z jcowan__ is now known as jcowan 2017-03-14T21:54:22Z sz0 quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2017-03-14T21:55:30Z jeapostrophe quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2017-03-14T21:56:09Z jcowan__ joined #scheme 2017-03-14T21:58:28Z jcowan quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-03-14T22:02:11Z alphor joined #scheme 2017-03-14T22:04:46Z jeapostrophe joined #scheme 2017-03-14T22:04:46Z jeapostrophe quit (Changing host) 2017-03-14T22:04:46Z jeapostrophe joined #scheme 2017-03-14T22:05:01Z TheLemonMan quit (Quit: "It's now safe to turn off your computer.") 2017-03-14T22:11:35Z sethalves quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2017-03-14T22:19:09Z civodul quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 25.1.1)) 2017-03-14T22:22:48Z loopster joined #scheme 2017-03-14T22:22:52Z loopster: hi all 2017-03-14T22:23:03Z loopster: what's this (labels form I see in some lisps? 2017-03-14T22:24:28Z akkad: you mean from common lisp? 2017-03-14T22:24:49Z loopster: for instance 2017-03-14T22:26:19Z jcowan__ is now known as jcowan 2017-03-14T22:26:47Z jcowan: loopster: It's basically letrec. 2017-03-14T22:27:10Z jcowan: Except that it can only bind functions, not any mixture of functions and other values. 2017-03-14T22:27:14Z loopster: what's letrec? 2017-03-14T22:27:58Z wasamasa: it's a let where each value can refer to others 2017-03-14T22:28:02Z jcowan: It allows you to define mutually recursive procedures in a local scope 2017-03-14T22:28:05Z jeapostrophe quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-03-14T22:28:29Z LeoNerd: letrec makes multiple new names visible, and then assigns values to each of them, such that the definition of each can see all of the newly-bound names 2017-03-14T22:32:26Z jeapostrophe joined #scheme 2017-03-14T22:32:26Z jeapostrophe quit (Changing host) 2017-03-14T22:32:26Z jeapostrophe joined #scheme 2017-03-14T22:32:51Z loopster: i see 2017-03-14T22:33:05Z loopster: if the compiler was two-pass (no repl), there would be no need 2017-03-14T22:37:22Z wasamasa: that's missing the point of scheme 2017-03-14T22:38:34Z loopster: wasamasa: why? 2017-03-14T22:38:42Z loopster: what's the "point" of scheme 2017-03-14T22:39:02Z wasamasa: not to stick to one way of implementing it :> 2017-03-14T22:39:24Z loopster: rofl 2017-03-14T22:39:46Z loopster: nice way to evade the issue 2017-03-14T22:39:50Z loopster quit (Quit: nite) 2017-03-14T22:39:56Z wasamasa: lol 2017-03-14T22:40:15Z wasamasa adjusts ignore nickmask 2017-03-14T22:46:51Z jcowan: . 2017-03-14T22:49:49Z akkad hunts for the hotness in emacs/scheme integration to be on par with slime 2017-03-14T22:52:23Z kori: akkad: geiser? 2017-03-14T22:52:28Z aeth quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-03-14T22:52:41Z akkad: k 2017-03-14T22:52:47Z kori: geiser is pretty good 2017-03-14T22:54:14Z akkad: ok. i've used it before 2017-03-14T22:54:38Z aeth joined #scheme 2017-03-14T22:59:45Z namosca joined #scheme 2017-03-14T22:59:58Z JoshS quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-03-14T23:01:49Z namosca left #scheme 2017-03-14T23:02:49Z cromachina joined #scheme 2017-03-14T23:09:28Z dbmikus quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-03-14T23:33:39Z sethalves joined #scheme 2017-03-14T23:44:27Z pjb joined #scheme 2017-03-14T23:51:35Z wtetzner quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-03-14T23:53:08Z ertes joined #scheme 2017-03-14T23:57:00Z jeapostrophe quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2017-03-14T23:59:01Z strykerkkd joined #scheme 2017-03-15T00:00:20Z vydd quit 2017-03-15T00:02:23Z jeapostrophe joined #scheme 2017-03-15T00:07:32Z jeapostrophe quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-03-15T00:11:24Z cemerick joined #scheme 2017-03-15T00:15:12Z namosca joined #scheme 2017-03-15T00:15:43Z namosca left #scheme 2017-03-15T00:18:22Z cemerick quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-03-15T00:18:49Z cemerick joined #scheme 2017-03-15T00:21:28Z wtetzner joined #scheme 2017-03-15T00:21:48Z safe joined #scheme 2017-03-15T00:24:28Z jaziz joined #scheme 2017-03-15T00:25:35Z wtetzner quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-03-15T00:29:28Z jaziz quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-03-15T00:32:06Z cromachina quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-03-15T00:33:20Z cromachina joined #scheme 2017-03-15T00:41:08Z taylan quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-03-15T00:42:36Z jeapostrophe joined #scheme 2017-03-15T00:47:04Z cemerick quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-03-15T00:47:12Z Riastradh quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2017-03-15T00:47:36Z jeapostrophe quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2017-03-15T00:51:05Z emma__ is now known as emma 2017-03-15T00:53:21Z namosca joined #scheme 2017-03-15T00:57:29Z stepnem quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-03-15T00:59:37Z cromachina quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-03-15T01:01:08Z shdeng joined #scheme 2017-03-15T01:02:14Z lambda-11235 joined #scheme 2017-03-15T01:02:33Z namosca left #scheme 2017-03-15T01:07:39Z strykerkkd quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-03-15T01:12:48Z ohama quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-03-15T01:14:24Z cromachina joined #scheme 2017-03-15T01:15:43Z ohama joined #scheme 2017-03-15T01:22:03Z wtetzner joined #scheme 2017-03-15T01:27:20Z wtetzner quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-03-15T01:38:00Z cromachina quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-03-15T01:38:54Z pie_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-03-15T01:43:22Z jeapostrophe joined #scheme 2017-03-15T01:43:22Z jeapostrophe quit (Changing host) 2017-03-15T01:43:22Z jeapostrophe joined #scheme 2017-03-15T01:44:44Z cromachina joined #scheme 2017-03-15T01:46:06Z pie_ joined #scheme 2017-03-15T01:48:58Z jeapostrophe quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2017-03-15T01:51:43Z badkins quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-03-15T01:52:40Z cromachina quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-03-15T01:57:07Z dbmikus joined #scheme 2017-03-15T02:04:42Z jeapostrophe joined #scheme 2017-03-15T02:06:22Z tmc quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2017-03-15T02:09:28Z jeapostrophe quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-03-15T02:13:48Z pjb quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-03-15T02:14:50Z tmc joined #scheme 2017-03-15T02:15:11Z takitus joined #scheme 2017-03-15T02:37:08Z pie_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-03-15T02:42:35Z wtetzner joined #scheme 2017-03-15T02:44:53Z noethics joined #scheme 2017-03-15T02:45:32Z zqk joined #scheme 2017-03-15T02:45:56Z zqk: hi, anyone using SCM implementation of Scheme on Sublime Text 3 IDE? 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Mainly libraries for web requests and irc protocol. 4) Hopefully SLIME/SWANK support so that it's awesome to use in emacs :P 2017-03-15T18:06:12Z BitPuffin|osx: For this particular task I don't care that much about speed, I just want the runtime to be small so it has a low memory footprint and doesn't take up much space to install 2017-03-15T18:06:37Z BitPuffin|osx: I think I'm leaning towards chicken for that. Since chibi doesn't seem to have many web libraries 2017-03-15T18:12:21Z wasamasa: hm, CHICKEN isn't exactly small 2017-03-15T18:12:29Z wasamasa: but if it's small, forget about a big ecosystem 2017-03-15T18:15:32Z BitPuffin|osx: Well, I'll take smallest I can get while also meeting the requirement of having an irc librar 2017-03-15T18:15:55Z BitPuffin|osx: though it looks like chibi has the snow ball stuff. So it could be added I suppose 2017-03-15T18:15:58Z wasamasa: an irc library is an excellent beginner's project 2017-03-15T18:16:29Z wasamasa: if you can't build an irc bot in your language, I doubt it's usable for real-world stuff 2017-03-15T18:16:34Z gravicappa quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2017-03-15T18:16:40Z lritter joined #scheme 2017-03-15T18:17:09Z BitPuffin|osx: True 2017-03-15T18:17:24Z wasamasa: I'd rather insist on something like a http client 2017-03-15T18:17:27Z BitPuffin|osx: But yeah the thing I was gonna write in scheme was just a twitch irc bot 2017-03-15T18:17:39Z BitPuffin|osx: I think I need both :P 2017-03-15T18:18:06Z UserJosh quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-03-15T18:19:01Z BitPuffin|osx: I could probably roll my own irc and http library, but I think with chibi for example the tooling is probably not quite there (with emacs) 2017-03-15T18:19:25Z wasamasa: it isn't either with CHICKEN 2017-03-15T18:19:42Z wasamasa: you know that "Pick two out of three" problem? 2017-03-15T18:19:56Z wasamasa: I have the feeling with scheme it's more like "Pick one desirable quality" 2017-03-15T18:20:18Z wasamasa: like, racket has great tooling 2017-03-15T18:22:08Z BitPuffin|osx: Yeah, I like racket. But I feel like maybe it's a little bloated for this purpose 2017-03-15T18:22:33Z wasamasa: I consider worrying about bloat rather silly if you're on a modern operating system :P 2017-03-15T18:22:47Z wasamasa: fix *that* first and ideally, the hardware, too 2017-03-15T18:23:21Z BitPuffin|osx: You mean because most modern operating systems are very bloated? 2017-03-15T18:23:40Z wasamasa: yup 2017-03-15T18:23:49Z wasamasa: and so is the software on them 2017-03-15T18:23:55Z BitPuffin|osx: well, don't wanna add insult to injury I guess :p 2017-03-15T18:24:10Z BitPuffin|osx: But also I would like to run a less bloated os on the server that's gonna run this bot probably 2017-03-15T18:24:34Z BitPuffin|osx: So far it's running crux linux, which is maybe a little less bloated than other distros. Could be a lot less bloated if I installed sbase etc 2017-03-15T18:24:53Z BitPuffin|osx: Right now I'm thinking I'll run netbsd on it. Minix would be a less bloated choice but it's not quite usable yet 2017-03-15T18:25:30Z lambda-smith quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-03-15T18:25:36Z BitPuffin|osx: anyways, since it's on a VPS I think it's not entirely unreasonable to not want to install more bloated software 2017-03-15T18:26:02Z BitPuffin|osx: If it's on a super powered desktop machine it is more a principle thing :) 2017-03-15T18:30:43Z jmd joined #scheme 2017-03-15T18:30:44Z cibs quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-03-15T18:32:15Z gravicappa joined #scheme 2017-03-15T18:32:21Z cibs joined #scheme 2017-03-15T18:37:49Z vydd joined #scheme 2017-03-15T18:37:49Z vydd quit (Changing host) 2017-03-15T18:37:49Z vydd joined #scheme 2017-03-15T18:59:24Z BitPuffin|osx: looks like geiser supports chibi! 2017-03-15T19:06:20Z kori: how do I make a macro/whatever that allows me to use certain functions inside it? 2017-03-15T19:07:23Z kori: consider I have two functions, Maybe:bind and Maybe:return. I want to make a function (Using m c) that allows me to do (Using Maybe (return 10)), for example, where return inside Using is actually Maybe:return 2017-03-15T19:08:25Z kori: I can do this with (let ((return Maybe:return)) (return 10)) but I'd like something that allows me to call Using like that above 2017-03-15T19:09:13Z kori: i.e (define Using (lambda (m c) (let ((return m:return) (bind m:bind)) c))) 2017-03-15T19:09:54Z jcowan__ joined #scheme 2017-03-15T19:10:51Z jcowan quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-03-15T19:13:37Z akkad quit (Excess Flood) 2017-03-15T19:16:21Z jcowan_: kori: How does Using know which names to qualify and which (like car, cdr) to leave alone? 2017-03-15T19:16:57Z kori: jcowan_: it'd just call let on bind and return, the rest would be preserved 2017-03-15T19:17:06Z akkad joined #scheme 2017-03-15T19:18:20Z kori: jcowan_: (Using Maybe (return 10)) is equivalent to (Maybe:return 10) 2017-03-15T19:23:47Z ecraven: you'd need introspection to find out that Maybe has :return and :bind 2017-03-15T19:24:54Z jcowan_: I think you need more than that, though, you need something that affects the whole dynamic scope 2017-03-15T19:25:19Z jcowan_: in which case using is just something that sets a dynamic variable 2017-03-15T19:25:22Z kori: is there an easier/cleaner solution to this 2017-03-15T19:26:07Z UserJosh joined #scheme 2017-03-15T19:26:25Z edgar-rft joined #scheme 2017-03-15T19:28:22Z wasamasa: not writing haskell in scheme? 2017-03-15T19:28:31Z kori: wasamasa: ha 2017-03-15T19:28:38Z kori: well this isn't specifically "haskell in scheme" 2017-03-15T19:28:52Z wasamasa: I see maybe and bind, so how could it not be 2017-03-15T19:28:53Z kori: I'm implementing Maybe in scheme 2017-03-15T19:29:10Z kori: http://sprunge.us/fFLF 2017-03-15T19:32:53Z kori: oh yeah 2017-03-15T19:32:58Z kori: https://github.com/kori/monad-mandala/blob/master/maybe.scm 2017-03-15T19:32:59Z edgar-rft: kori: is that if you're robbing a bank but can't get open the safe, then you would use save-division? 2017-03-15T19:33:02Z kori: here's maybe.scm 2017-03-15T19:33:27Z kori: edgar-rft: ha 2017-03-15T19:33:28Z kori: nice 2017-03-15T19:36:23Z edgar-rft looks up the city map for the next bank... 2017-03-15T19:39:16Z Menche joined #scheme 2017-03-15T19:40:57Z lambda-smith joined #scheme 2017-03-15T19:46:43Z jeapostrophe quit (Quit: leaving) 2017-03-15T19:48:42Z TheLemonMan joined #scheme 2017-03-15T19:49:23Z nckx quit (Quit: ☭ + 🐧 + GNU Guix) 2017-03-15T19:50:36Z UserJosh quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-03-15T19:51:21Z nckx joined #scheme 2017-03-15T19:54:22Z sz0 quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2017-03-15T20:20:30Z snits quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-03-15T20:31:11Z kuribas joined #scheme 2017-03-15T20:36:16Z cibs quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-03-15T20:38:05Z cibs joined #scheme 2017-03-15T20:40:58Z strykerkkd quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-03-15T20:57:12Z gravicappa quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-03-15T20:57:48Z cibs quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-03-15T21:00:07Z cibs joined #scheme 2017-03-15T21:02:03Z badkins_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-03-15T21:08:28Z daviid quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-03-15T21:09:46Z JoshS joined #scheme 2017-03-15T21:15:07Z sethalves quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2017-03-15T21:19:03Z bjz joined #scheme 2017-03-15T21:25:43Z cemerick quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-03-15T21:26:04Z badkins joined #scheme 2017-03-15T21:26:25Z jmd quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-03-15T21:26:48Z JoshS quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-03-15T21:27:08Z badkins_ joined #scheme 2017-03-15T21:30:27Z igajsin quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-03-15T21:30:58Z badkins quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-03-15T21:50:03Z vydd quit 2017-03-15T21:59:48Z snits joined #scheme 2017-03-15T22:00:15Z JoshS joined #scheme 2017-03-15T22:04:34Z lambda-smith quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-03-15T22:05:39Z JoshS quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-03-15T22:08:12Z pjb quit (Quit: b) 2017-03-15T22:10:40Z pjb joined #scheme 2017-03-15T22:12:56Z TheLemonMan quit (Quit: "It's now safe to turn off your computer.") 2017-03-15T22:17:56Z bjz quit (Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. 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seconds) 2017-03-16T00:04:34Z TCZ quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-03-16T00:04:35Z cemerick joined #scheme 2017-03-16T00:04:48Z cibs joined #scheme 2017-03-16T00:07:01Z daviid joined #scheme 2017-03-16T00:07:45Z jshjsh quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-03-16T00:09:37Z jcowan__: Basically I think the right approach is to use an explicit type class, i.e. a record of procedures to be passed explicitly, rather than implicitly as in Haskell. 2017-03-16T00:10:33Z jcowan__: so we have (return maybe n) where return dispatches on the maybe record 2017-03-16T00:10:51Z jcowan__: This is verbose compared to Haskell, but easy to understand. 2017-03-16T00:11:09Z jcowan__: SRFI 128 comparators are already a typeclass (a mmerger of Eq, Ord, and Hash) 2017-03-16T00:17:29Z adu joined #scheme 2017-03-16T00:20:28Z cromachina quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-03-16T00:23:57Z kuribas quit (Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)) 2017-03-16T00:24:08Z dbmikus quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 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1.7) 2017-03-16T09:00:27Z jaziz quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-03-16T09:04:40Z cemerick quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-03-16T09:05:14Z Vermie joined #scheme 2017-03-16T09:05:19Z Vermie: Hello. 2017-03-16T09:05:29Z cemerick joined #scheme 2017-03-16T09:08:29Z Vermie: ??? 2017-03-16T09:08:32Z Vermie: Hello? 2017-03-16T09:08:38Z jackdaniel: hey Vermie 2017-03-16T09:08:48Z Vermie: Uh hello jackdaniel 2017-03-16T09:08:59Z jackdaniel: mind that IRC is asynchronous, don't expect instanteous answers 2017-03-16T09:10:01Z wasamasa: wait, we aren't jacked straight into the matrix via fiber link?? 2017-03-16T09:10:11Z jackdaniel: (people live in different time zones, have work to do etc, so sometimes between asking a question and answering it there is period of a few hours) 2017-03-16T09:10:20Z jackdaniel: right, I have forgotten ;) 2017-03-16T09:12:24Z wasamasa: or part of a huge blob of consciousness without any semblance of individuality? 2017-03-16T09:12:32Z edgar-rft for example lives in different time zones 2017-03-16T09:12:40Z jackdaniel: lol 2017-03-16T09:13:16Z wasamasa: those sci-fi scenarios sure sound less than chill compared to IRC 2017-03-16T09:17:27Z cibs quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-03-16T09:19:44Z cibs joined #scheme 2017-03-16T09:23:45Z Vermie: Well hello. 2017-03-16T09:23:47Z Vermie: So I have a question 2017-03-16T09:24:01Z Vermie: In Scheme implementations, it is usually required that (eqv 1/2 1/2) is indeed #t. 2017-03-16T09:24:26Z Vermie: But how is that implemented? Should I have the numbers themselves be pointing to the same location in memory or just compare their values? 2017-03-16T09:27:48Z jackdaniel: Vermie: see http://stackoverflow.com/questions/16299246/what-is-the-difference-between-eq-eqv-equal-and-in-scheme 2017-03-16T09:30:05Z noethics quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-03-16T09:30:15Z Vermie: jackdaniel: Interesting. 2017-03-16T09:30:23Z Vermie: So it's implementation dependent? Let me check R7RS 2017-03-16T09:31:09Z jackdaniel: don't mistake eq and eqv 2017-03-16T09:31:29Z Vermie: Interesting. So it __is__ up to me 2017-03-16T09:46:56Z Vermie quit (Quit: Page closed) 2017-03-16T09:51:18Z alezost quit (Quit: I live in GuixSD and Emacs ) 2017-03-16T09:56:40Z choas joined #scheme 2017-03-16T09:57:54Z choas_ quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-03-16T09:59:18Z pjb joined #scheme 2017-03-16T11:03:36Z kuribas joined #scheme 2017-03-16T11:24:13Z shdeng quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-03-16T11:42:39Z bjz joined #scheme 2017-03-16T12:04:27Z civodul quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-03-16T12:39:28Z badkins joined #scheme 2017-03-16T12:41:28Z bjz quit (Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2017-03-16T12:50:50Z edgar-rft quit (Quit: edgar-rft) 2017-03-16T13:23:20Z Grisha joined #scheme 2017-03-16T13:23:26Z Grisha: Hi everyone 2017-03-16T13:24:01Z Grisha: I’ve got a couple of SICP-related questions, does anyone here happen to remember the book, at least vaguely? 2017-03-16T13:27:52Z cromachina quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-03-16T13:27:53Z qu1j0t3: Grisha: yes, although i haven't got past ch.2 yet. 2017-03-16T13:28:15Z Grisha: qu1j0t3: great, that’s exactly where I stuck :-) 2017-03-16T13:28:15Z qu1j0t3: Grisha: if it concerns ch.1 or 2 i can try to help. 2017-03-16T13:28:29Z Grisha: qu1j0t3: do you remember this technique with type tags? 2017-03-16T13:28:46Z qu1j0t3: can you point me to a specific exercise or section? 2017-03-16T13:28:51Z Grisha: 2.73 2017-03-16T13:28:52Z qu1j0t3: yes, but it's been a while 2017-03-16T13:29:33Z Grisha: complex numbers, (‘polar 0.5 1.0) for polar rep, (‘rectangular 1.0 2.0) for the cartesian rep 2017-03-16T13:29:34Z Grisha: now 2017-03-16T13:29:58Z Grisha: they attach ‘(polar) rather ‘polar tag in their code 2017-03-16T13:30:10Z Grisha: explaining it in a footnote: 2017-03-16T13:30:29Z Grisha: We use the list (rectangular) rather than the symbol rectangular to allow for the possibility of operations with multiple arguments, not all of the same type. 2017-03-16T13:30:50Z Grisha: so that tag by a list with one symbol rather by that symbol 2017-03-16T13:31:01Z Grisha: and say it has smth to do with multi-arg ops 2017-03-16T13:31:11Z Grisha: I totally don’t get it 2017-03-16T13:31:21Z qu1j0t3 looks 2017-03-16T13:31:35Z Grisha: footnote 45 in the pdf version on github 2017-03-16T13:32:37Z Grisha: now it somehow resonates with the fact that apply-generic first builds a list consisting of tags of all arguments 2017-03-16T13:32:47Z Grisha: and uses that list as a key for the look-up table 2017-03-16T13:35:08Z qu1j0t3: well yes. 2017-03-16T13:35:20Z qu1j0t3: a symbol would only let you specify one type 2017-03-16T13:35:25Z qu1j0t3: a list lets you specify multiple 2017-03-16T13:35:57Z qu1j0t3: all the operators here just happen to take one typed argument 2017-03-16T13:36:10Z Grisha: my understanding is that if you apply-generic to smth like (sum x y), you collect type tags of x and y and lookup upon that ((type-tag x) (type-tag y)) for the op 2017-03-16T13:36:10Z qu1j0t3: but imagine addition 2017-03-16T13:36:23Z qu1j0t3: yes, but given the interface to put and get, has to be a list? 2017-03-16T13:36:34Z Grisha: hm.... 2017-03-16T13:36:36Z qu1j0t3: otherwise how could you have entry for sum with two arguments 2017-03-16T13:36:40Z Grisha: let me thing for a moment 2017-03-16T13:36:44Z qu1j0t3: k 2017-03-16T13:39:04Z Grisha: when we do smth like (apply-generic ‘real-part (‘rectangular 0.5 1.0)), it first maps type-tag over the args of real-part, i.e. over (‘rectangular 0.5 1.0)) 2017-03-16T13:39:30Z Grisha: the map produces ((rectangular)) - a list with a single element, being a list with a single elementng being rectangular 2017-03-16T13:39:35Z Grisha: oh, sorry 2017-03-16T13:40:19Z Grisha: just (rectangular) 2017-03-16T13:40:23Z Grisha: no double list 2017-03-16T13:41:03Z civodul joined #scheme 2017-03-16T13:41:13Z Grisha: if we do smth like (apply-generic ‘+ (‘rectangular 1.0 1.0) (‘polar 2.0 3.0)) 2017-03-16T13:41:24Z Grisha: the list of type tags would be (rectangular polar) 2017-03-16T13:41:33Z Grisha: that would be a valid key for the table 2017-03-16T13:41:41Z Grisha: I see the reasoning here 2017-03-16T13:42:03Z Grisha: but! at the same time, they tag their constructors make-complex-* just with a symbol, not a list 2017-03-16T13:43:14Z qu1j0t3: that's because a VALUE has only one type. 2017-03-16T13:43:23Z qu1j0t3: but an operator can involve more than one. 2017-03-16T13:44:40Z Grisha: I’m getting even more confused ;~) 2017-03-16T13:45:55Z Grisha: so, my understaning is that the length of the list should correspond to the number of arguments that the function accepts, i.e. one for accessors like real-part and imag-part, two for + etc. 2017-03-16T13:46:02Z Grisha: is this correct? 2017-03-16T13:59:32Z Grisha: I understand now I think 2017-03-16T14:00:04Z Grisha: they new that apply-generic builds the lookup key by pulling type tags of all arguments to a list 2017-03-16T14:02:30Z Grisha: qu1j0t3: thanks a lot! 2017-03-16T14:02:42Z dbmikus joined #scheme 2017-03-16T14:10:59Z pjb: Grisha: rectangular is not a function, it's a symbol. Therefore if apply-generic is bound to a function, (apply-generic ‘+ (‘rectangular 1.0 1.0) (‘polar 2.0 3.0)) will signal an error. 2017-03-16T14:12:09Z Grisha: pjb: thanks! did I refer to it as a function? it was not what I meant 2017-03-16T14:12:24Z pjb: Yes, you did. 2017-03-16T14:12:46Z pjb: scheme will evaluate all the elements of an application list such as: (apply-generic ‘+ (‘rectangular 1.0 1.0) (‘polar 2.0 3.0)) 2017-03-16T14:12:58Z Grisha: yes 2017-03-16T14:13:06Z pjb: evaluating apply-generic will evaluate to the function bound to it. This is the function that will be called. 2017-03-16T14:13:16Z pjb: '+ evaluates to the symbol + ; it's the first argument. 2017-03-16T14:13:31Z Grisha: oh, I see 2017-03-16T14:13:39Z Grisha: that was a bad choice of wording 2017-03-16T14:13:40Z pjb: (‘rectangular 1.0 1.0) is an applicative form, so scheme will evaluate all the elements of this list in a recursive step 2017-03-16T14:14:08Z pjb: The evaluation of ‘rectangular results in the symbol rectangular. This is not a function, therefore the applicative form (‘rectangular 1.0 1.0) is an error. 2017-03-16T14:14:45Z pjb: Since the order of evaluation of the arguments is not specified, scheme may try to evaluate (‘polar 2.0 3.0) first. In this case, we get the same error for polar is a symbol, not a function. 2017-03-16T14:15:03Z pjb: Grisha: it's not a bad choice of wording, it's a bad use of quote. 2017-03-16T14:16:12Z pjb: If you use lists to represent tagged values, then you may mean: (apply-generic '+ '(rectangular 1.0 1.0) '(polar 2.0 3.0)) ; <- note the position of quotes. 2017-03-16T14:16:42Z pjb: But I would advise you to use abstract data types, and to use functional abstractions. Then you would define functions named rectangular and polar to build those tagged values. 2017-03-16T14:16:56Z Grisha: pjb: I see, thank you 2017-03-16T14:17:11Z pjb: you would then write: (apply-generic '+ (rectangular 1.0 1.0) (polar 2.0 3.0)) 2017-03-16T14:17:25Z Grisha: I totally missed that (‘polar 1.0 2.0) is not the same as ‘(polar 1.0 2.0) 2017-03-16T14:17:40Z pjb: Even if you use lists as above to represent your tagged value, it is worthwhile to define those functions (define (rectangular x y) (list 'rectangular x y)) … 2017-03-16T14:17:49Z pjb: since this allow you to change the representation later. 2017-03-16T14:18:45Z Grisha: yes, sure, this hidden representation is a running topic in SICP 2017-03-16T14:18:46Z pjb: 'x is equivalent to (quote x). ('polar 1.2 2.0) == ((quote polar) 1.2 2.0) '(polar 1.0 2.0) == (quote (polar 1.0 2.0)) 2017-03-16T14:18:51Z pjb: Indeed. 2017-03-16T14:19:14Z Grisha: it’s my first read through the book 2017-03-16T14:19:26Z Grisha: never coded anything longer than 10 lines of code in lisp before 2017-03-16T14:19:57Z pjb: You may read r5rs at least the 35 first pages. It's a good summary of scheme. 2017-03-16T14:20:23Z pjb: http://www.schemers.org/Documents/Standards/R5RS/ 2017-03-16T14:20:45Z Grisha: I will 2017-03-16T14:21:12Z Grisha: my ultimate goal is to code a small scheme interpreter in each new language I would like to learn 2017-03-16T14:21:20Z Grisha: but I figured out I don’t know scheme well enough 2017-03-16T14:21:26Z Grisha: oh, at least a subset of scheme 2017-03-16T14:25:35Z arbv quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-03-16T14:26:26Z arbv joined #scheme 2017-03-16T14:47:08Z webshinra quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-03-16T14:50:27Z webshinra joined #scheme 2017-03-16T14:53:53Z bjz joined #scheme 2017-03-16T15:03:43Z rszeno joined #scheme 2017-03-16T15:05:01Z stepnem joined #scheme 2017-03-16T15:06:12Z pjb: Grisha: if you want to implement a scheme, you will profitably read the book "LiSP": Lisp In Small Pieces.Lisp in Small Pieces http://pagesperso-systeme.lip6.fr/Christian.Queinnec/WWW/LiSP.html http://pagesperso-systeme.lip6.fr/Christian.Queinnec/Books/LiSP-2ndEdition-2006Dec11.tgz 2017-03-16T15:06:33Z Grisha: thanks, I’ve heard of the book 2017-03-16T15:06:38Z pjb: It has nine chapters each implementing a scheme interpreter (and then compiler) in increasingly more sophisticated ways. 2017-03-16T15:06:40Z Grisha: it’s next on my reading list after SICP 2017-03-16T15:06:51Z pjb: You have a good reading list I see. 2017-03-16T15:07:30Z Grisha: doesn’t help my misuse of quotes though :~) 2017-03-16T15:08:13Z pjb: Reading r5rs and some practice will help 2017-03-16T15:09:23Z pjb: For historical interest you may also read AIM-8. eg. at: http://informatimago.com/develop/lisp/com/informatimago/small-cl-pgms/aim-8/index.html 2017-03-16T15:09:48Z pjb: it explains well enough the reason for quote and its meaning, between code <-> data view-points. 2017-03-16T15:09:59Z Grisha: I see 2017-03-16T15:10:02Z Grisha: never saw this one 2017-03-16T15:10:17Z Grisha: I wish I had more time to spend reading books 2017-03-16T15:10:31Z qu1j0t3 also mentions Norvig's PAIP which has a chapter on Scheme impl http://norvig.com/paip.html 2017-03-16T15:10:51Z pjb: AIM-8 is the original LISP paper. March 1959. 58 years ago. 2017-03-16T15:11:04Z pjb: Yes, PAIP is nice read too. 2017-03-16T15:11:19Z Grisha: and Norvigs JScheme 2017-03-16T15:11:49Z Grisha: I stole the idea of implementing a small scheme compiler in language X you want to learn from him 2017-03-16T15:12:34Z Grisha: he says it took him 20 hours to implement a scheme interpreter in Java with no previous exposure to Java 2017-03-16T15:13:15Z kori: Probably doesn't hurt to read Recursive Functions of Symbolic Expressions and their Computation by Machine, Part I e ither 2017-03-16T15:13:15Z pjb: The idea is basically this. S-expression are a syntax to represent DATA. (It was planned to use M-expression as syntax to represent code, and in the early lisp papers, lisp code was written as M-expressions, as you can see in AIM-8). 2017-03-16T15:13:40Z pjb: Since S-expressions and M-expressions are different syntax, you can easily include literal data in code, by inserting S-expressions in M-expressions. 2017-03-16T15:14:10Z pjb: However, the AIM-8 paper presents an interpreter for lisp taking a lisp program as data, ie. as a S-expression. 2017-03-16T15:14:59Z pjb: A student of John McCarthy, not knowing any better, started to translate and implement this interpreter in assembler 7090, and obtained thus the first actual LISP implementation. Using S-expressions as input for the lisp programs. 2017-03-16T15:15:34Z Grisha: was it before Garibaldi or after? :~) 2017-03-16T15:15:40Z pjb: But then, there was the problem of inserting literal data in programs represented as S-expressions. This is where the QUOTE operator was introduced, to quote data S-expressions inside code represented as S-expressions. 2017-03-16T15:15:51Z pjb: It was in 1959-1960. 2017-03-16T15:16:32Z pjb: Until 1964, people were still thinking wiht M-expressions (in papers, documentation, etc). 2017-03-16T15:17:21Z pjb: But something occured in 1964: somebody realized that we could have a hook in the compiler/intepreter that would take a S-expression, and transform it into anoter S-expression before compiling or executing it: the macros were invented. 2017-03-16T15:18:00Z pjb: Then people realized thanks to the macros that it was much more practical to keep the source code in the exact same syntax as data, since source code was data for macros. (as well as for the rest of the compiler). 2017-03-16T15:18:32Z pjb: So they forgot about finalizing M-expressions, and we are programming by actually describing only data structures: lists of lists and atoms. 2017-03-16T15:19:09Z Grisha: I prefer to think about trees instead of lists 2017-03-16T15:19:17Z Grisha: but it’s a matter of convention 2017-03-16T15:19:21Z pjb: In scheme, you manipulate the code as data with the syntax definitions. 2017-03-16T15:19:28Z Grisha: lists with elements being possibly lists 2017-03-16T15:19:35Z pjb: Indeed. Trees. 2017-03-16T15:19:47Z Grisha: was a revalation to me recently 2017-03-16T15:20:23Z pjb: Unfortunately, while SICP talks in chapter 4 of metalinguistic abstraction (kind of "compiling"), it avoids entirely what we call syntactic abstractions, lisp macros. 2017-03-16T15:20:28Z Grisha: and another one: since with symbols you cannot do very little beyond comparing two to each other, they are a perfect data type for coding data structures 2017-03-16T15:21:27Z Grisha: I realized a couple of weeks ago that even introducing ints instead of symbols is a temptation to add and sub them 2017-03-16T15:21:43Z Grisha: and with symbols only, you’re doomed to build compound data structures out of them 2017-03-16T15:21:50Z Grisha: since you cannot do anything else with them 2017-03-16T15:21:58Z pjb: Sure. 2017-03-16T15:22:21Z Grisha: so it’s not about symbols, but rather about the ways of combining them 2017-03-16T15:22:53Z pjb: Now in Ruby, symbols have a different syntax from ruby keywords. So a ruby expression such as print(1+2) needs to be represented as [:print,[1,:+,2]]. (There are libraries helping translating between those two forms). 2017-03-16T15:23:36Z Grisha: I’ve never touched ruby 2017-03-16T15:23:51Z pjb: In python it's even worse, there's no symbol. So the translation between the source form and python data is even more distant. 2017-03-16T15:24:40Z pjb: (which doesn't prevent libraries helping parsing and converting between source and data, cf. Pypy, etc). 2017-03-16T15:25:26Z Grisha: so print and + are keywords, but no symbols in Ruby? 2017-03-16T15:25:32Z pjb: Yes. 2017-03-16T15:25:40Z pjb: All symbols in Ruby are prefixed with a colon. 2017-03-16T15:25:52Z pjb: [:foo,:bar,:+] instead of (foo bar +) 2017-03-16T15:26:19Z Grisha: but print and + are prefixed by a colon in your example 2017-03-16T15:26:23Z Grisha: so they must be sybmols 2017-03-16T15:26:26Z Grisha: *symbols 2017-03-16T15:26:26Z pjb: Yes. 2017-03-16T15:26:38Z pjb: symbol, as the data type used to represent source keywords. 2017-03-16T15:26:40Z pjb: But all this comes into play only from chapter 4 in sicp… For now, you just use functional abstractions. 2017-03-16T15:26:50Z Grisha: I see 2017-03-16T15:27:23Z pjb: But remember that when you write lisp code, you're actually writting a data structure. 2017-03-16T15:28:11Z pjb: You only have to prefix a lisp form (lisp code) with a quote, and voilà, you have data: '(f (+ 2 x)) And you can write lisp functions to process it (notably in emacs, using emacs lisp ;-) ). 2017-03-16T15:28:52Z pjb: (car '(f (+ 2 x))) #| --> f |# (subst 'y 'x '(f (+ 2 x))) #| --> (f (+ 2 y)) |# 2017-03-16T15:29:45Z Grisha: I was going to make a joke about subst coming from Mathematica, but then restrained myself 2017-03-16T15:30:07Z pjb: Actually, it's Mathematica that is inspired from lisp. Remember, lisp is 58 years old. 2017-03-16T15:30:23Z Grisha: that should have been the exact nature of my joke 2017-03-16T15:30:24Z pjb: subst was one of the first functions, it's documented in LISP 1.5 User Manual IIRC. 2017-03-16T15:58:28Z bjz quit (Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. 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The trouble with such things is that there is no SPI (plugin API) for them 2017-03-16T19:37:45Z benaiah: that's fine, I just wanted something I could use for lua dict access that wasn't as verbose as dict-ref 2017-03-16T19:37:57Z benaiah is working on a scheme->lua compiler 2017-03-16T19:38:06Z wasamasa: embrace the verbosity 2017-03-16T19:38:35Z wasamasa: srfi-123 mentions inspirations, perhaps you can add your own inofficial extension :P 2017-03-16T19:38:55Z wasamasa: http://blog.practical-scheme.net/gauche/20100428-shorter-names 2017-03-16T19:40:27Z kammd quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2017-03-16T19:40:34Z benaiah: wasamasa: thanks 2017-03-16T19:40:59Z wasamasa: I wonder whether https://srfi.schemers.org/srfi-69/srfi-69.html will map to lua tables 2017-03-16T19:41:42Z lambda-smith quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2017-03-16T19:44:34Z benaiah: might require a wrapper 2017-03-16T19:45:38Z wasamasa: or maybe you'll have an incompatible built-in unit for them? 2017-03-16T19:45:54Z wasamasa: I dunno, at that point you might just as well do your own lisp 2017-03-16T19:46:18Z benaiah: yeah I want to stick as close to true scheme behavior as reasonably possible 2017-03-16T19:46:23Z terpri joined #scheme 2017-03-16T19:46:32Z benaiah: cause there's already a couple lua-based lisps 2017-03-16T19:46:36Z benaiah: they're just really weird 2017-03-16T19:48:04Z wasamasa: I'm a weird lisp enthusiast 2017-03-16T19:48:15Z benaiah: right now my compiler helper functions are just a multiline literal in compile.lua 2017-03-16T19:48:59Z benaiah: and all that's there is context lookup so you can have a lonely define not be a syntax error and use symbols that aren't valid lua identifiers 2017-03-16T19:49:04Z TheLemonMan joined #scheme 2017-03-16T19:50:08Z benaiah: so I have a long way to go 2017-03-16T19:52:14Z jcowan: Chibi is eventually going to have modes for Lua, Go, and Bash as well as Scheme 2017-03-16T19:52:48Z benaiah: well I'm sure that'll be superior to this compiler 2017-03-16T19:53:04Z benaiah: I'm a rank amateur wandering around blindly bumping into things 2017-03-16T19:53:48Z benaiah: wasamasa: did you see the Beautiful Racket book that Butterick released the other day? 2017-03-16T19:53:51Z jcowan: Sure, but Scheme->Lua(JIT) is a valuable thing for the Scheme community 2017-03-16T19:54:15Z benaiah: it's definitely fun to hack on 2017-03-16T19:54:22Z wasamasa: benaiah: I remember reading that one "Why Racket? Why Lisp?" chapter before 2017-03-16T19:54:29Z jcowan: Are you planning to implement Scheme pairs as individual Lua tables? 2017-03-16T19:55:24Z benaiah: jcowan: I was thinking I might just represent lists as tables and translate to pairs in the stdlib, but I haven't got into that much 2017-03-16T19:55:29Z benaiah: at the moment lists are just tables 2017-03-16T19:55:57Z jcowan: That works if you have some representation of improper lists 2017-03-16T19:56:03Z ZombieChicken joined #scheme 2017-03-16T19:56:27Z benaiah: yeah, I should be able to just track what's improper 2017-03-16T19:56:50Z benaiah: my guess is that's going to perform better in the typical proper-list case 2017-03-16T19:57:13Z wasamasa: but what about set-car! and set-cdr!? 2017-03-16T19:57:15Z jcowan: e.g. stash the list elements under 0, 1, 2 ... and the improper tail under some other key like ". 2017-03-16T19:57:26Z benaiah: jcowan: right 2017-03-16T19:57:31Z wasamasa: or generally stitching together lists 2017-03-16T19:57:41Z wasamasa: won't that give you a performance penalty? 2017-03-16T19:59:14Z benaiah: hm 2017-03-16T19:59:16Z benaiah: idk 2017-03-16T20:00:14Z jcowan: Lists like that are very expensive to cons, and Lispers expect consing to be cheap 2017-03-16T20:00:39Z jcowan: (cons 'a '(b c d)) should not have to copy references to b, c, and d 2017-03-16T20:01:28Z wasamasa: yup 2017-03-16T20:01:38Z wasamasa: look at srfi-1 implementations 2017-03-16T20:02:01Z wasamasa wonders what a tablep language would look like 2017-03-16T20:02:11Z benaiah: yeah, that's a good point 2017-03-16T20:02:32Z benaiah: and it's way simpler and less error-prone to just make lists look like scheme thinks they look 2017-03-16T20:02:45Z benaiah: rather than trying to fool it to use a different shape under the hood 2017-03-16T20:05:13Z benaiah: I need to clean up the code enough to publish 2017-03-16T20:06:32Z jcowan: Also, you'll need a unique object for the empty list: Lua nil won't work, I don't think 2017-03-16T20:06:46Z benaiah: yeah, I'm using nil right now but that'll change 2017-03-16T20:07:05Z ChrisOei quit (Quit: ChrisOei) 2017-03-16T20:07:44Z benaiah: I've been doing it pretty quick-and-dirty, better type representation is pretty high priority 2017-03-16T20:08:20Z benaiah: this project is less than 2 weeks old 2017-03-16T20:09:16Z benaiah: it's very much at the "it kinda works if you squint and don't give it anything it doesn't expect" stage 2017-03-16T20:15:48Z akkad quit (Excess Flood) 2017-03-16T20:21:06Z akkad joined #scheme 2017-03-16T20:21:26Z civodul joined #scheme 2017-03-16T20:26:05Z jmd quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-03-16T20:36:25Z bjz joined #scheme 2017-03-16T20:53:06Z reggggieee quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-03-16T20:56:34Z Riastradh joined #scheme 2017-03-16T21:17:13Z gravicappa quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-03-16T21:17:46Z vydd joined #scheme 2017-03-16T21:17:46Z vydd quit (Changing host) 2017-03-16T21:17:47Z vydd joined #scheme 2017-03-16T21:22:18Z bjz quit (Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. 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Unlikely. 2017-03-16T22:55:21Z civodul quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 25.1.1)) 2017-03-16T22:55:30Z allisio: Shame. 2017-03-16T22:55:35Z gwatt: the srfi document provides an implementation for guile, though it doesn't appear to exist in guile on my machine 2017-03-16T22:57:28Z allisio: That would be the source of the consternation that led me here. :') 2017-03-16T22:58:17Z kvda joined #scheme 2017-03-16T22:58:53Z gwatt: fair 'nuff 2017-03-16T22:59:00Z wasamasa: I will never get why people desire whitespace syntax for lisp 2017-03-16T22:59:20Z Riastradh quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2017-03-16T23:11:48Z dbmikus quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-03-16T23:13:52Z badkins joined #scheme 2017-03-16T23:15:13Z vydd joined #scheme 2017-03-16T23:15:42Z vydd quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-03-16T23:16:14Z vydd joined #scheme 2017-03-16T23:20:46Z vydd quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2017-03-16T23:27:40Z daviid quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2017-03-16T23:40:58Z 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Scheme is a Lisp-1, so I can't use the API defined in r7rs.pdf because it uses variable names like "list", which can't actually be used!) 2017-03-18T00:35:40Z akkad: aeth: put it all in its own package? 2017-03-18T00:36:10Z aeth: akkad: I could put all that stuff in its own package, or I could prefix the raw Scheme functions with %s- 2017-03-18T00:36:13Z aeth: I do the latter. 2017-03-18T00:36:35Z aeth: It would kind of be hard to define a new car in terms of car, for instance. 2017-03-18T00:36:47Z aeth: There's probably a way, though. 2017-03-18T00:37:45Z aeth: I could migrate that whole file to Scheme itself, and just implement it using something like cl-funcall that I'll probably have to implement anyway. 2017-03-18T00:38:21Z aeth: e.g. (define (remainder n1 n2) (cl-funcall 'rem n1 n2)) 2017-03-18T00:39:38Z yrdz quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-03-18T00:39:58Z aeth: The first thing I should probably do is put it to a state where I can put it all on Gitlab, though. Iirc, I was in the process of moving from putting stuff on Github to putting stuff on Gitlab, which is why I never made the repo public. 2017-03-18T00:40:34Z aeth: Also, I did many things horribly, horribly wrong. I prefer the early history to not be seen. :-p 2017-03-18T00:44:32Z yrdz joined #scheme 2017-03-18T00:45:02Z Riastradh joined #scheme 2017-03-18T00:49:11Z yrdz` joined #scheme 2017-03-18T00:50:18Z yrdz quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2017-03-18T01:00:46Z cemerick quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-03-18T01:07:45Z bjz quit (Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. 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Scheme doesn't have a first-class notion of `types'. 2017-03-18T04:25:21Z vydd quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-03-18T04:27:49Z akkad: k. running out of type? that i can think of. :P 2017-03-18T04:30:04Z aeth: what are you trying to do? 2017-03-18T04:33:10Z akkad: umm. identify the type of a variable 2017-03-18T04:33:15Z akkad: qed 2017-03-18T04:34:54Z akkad: vector it is 2017-03-18T04:35:14Z aeth: (vector? foo) 2017-03-18T04:36:02Z akkad: yeap 2017-03-18T04:36:11Z akkad: thus the type? reference above 2017-03-18T04:37:43Z aeth: r7rs-small only has: (boolean? byte-vector? char? eof-object? null? number? pair? port? procedure? string? symbol? vector?) 2017-03-18T04:37:53Z aeth: s/byte-vector?/bytevector?/ 2017-03-18T04:38:28Z aeth: *and* all predicates created by define-record-type 2017-03-18T04:38:33Z aeth: good luck with the last one :p 2017-03-18T04:39:59Z aeth: (page 10) 2017-03-18T04:46:47Z xellotath joined #scheme 2017-03-18T04:47:05Z xellotath: hello 2017-03-18T04:47:27Z xellotath: i'm trying to understand structs in scheme 2017-03-18T04:47:45Z xellotath: what's the difference between define-struct and struct? 2017-03-18T04:48:11Z akkad: thanks aeth 2017-03-18T04:50:13Z aeth: Scheme doesn't have define-struct portably. 2017-03-18T04:50:19Z aeth: What implementation are you using? 2017-03-18T04:50:35Z xellotath: i'm using racket if i understood the question properly 2017-03-18T04:51:16Z rszeno joined #scheme 2017-03-18T04:52:37Z aeth: Portable Scheme (r6rs and r7rs, but not r5rs) just has define-record-type. 2017-03-18T04:52:45Z aeth: https://docs.racket-lang.org/reference/define-struct.html?q=define-struct#%28form._%28%28lib._racket%2Fprivate%2Fbase..rkt%29._define-struct%29%29 2017-03-18T04:52:46Z rudybot: http://teensy.info/pvcrNaVAO7 2017-03-18T04:52:54Z aeth: It looks like that is the documentation for define-struct 2017-03-18T04:53:14Z xellotath: yeap already open in my tabs xD 2017-03-18T04:53:44Z aeth: If you can't get help here, there's #racket 2017-03-18T04:53:57Z aeth: racket is very slightly (by 2) larger than here 2017-03-18T04:53:59Z nanoz joined #scheme 2017-03-18T04:53:59Z rszeno quit (Client Quit) 2017-03-18T04:54:58Z xellotath: i used #lang scheme 2017-03-18T04:55:37Z xellotath: i think my problem is more of a scheme thing 2017-03-18T04:55:50Z xellotath: does racket have anything to do with this? 2017-03-18T04:58:33Z dbmikus joined #scheme 2017-03-18T05:01:28Z mg_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-03-18T05:01:46Z bjz quit (Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. 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(double check the functions&variables names) 2017-03-18T05:08:00Z Riastradh: rudybot: halp 2017-03-18T05:08:00Z rudybot: Riastradh: HALP! 2017-03-18T05:08:05Z Riastradh: rudybot: init 2017-03-18T05:08:06Z rudybot: Riastradh: Hi guys. Some days ago I asked how I could highlight top-level Lisp comments. The answer was to hack it in the major mode. I found another way. It may not be efficient or the best way to do it (so, comments very welcome!). One can find it here: https://github.com/aroemers/.emacs.d/blob/master/init.el#L62-L98 Screenshot here: http://share.romeinszoon.nl/screen_shot_2013-06-20_at_1.55.48_pm_cdf8.png 2017-03-18T05:08:15Z Riastradh: I guess rudybot is uncooperative tonight. 2017-03-18T05:08:24Z Riastradh: akkad: Show your code? 2017-03-18T05:11:26Z akkad: Riastradh: http://paste.lisp.org/+7BMF. 2017-03-18T05:11:39Z akkad: http://paste.lisp.org/display/341655 rather 2017-03-18T05:12:08Z Riastradh: akkad: And show what happens when you try to run that? 2017-03-18T05:13:57Z akkad: added to bottom 2017-03-18T05:14:19Z Riastradh: There's no call to assoc there. 2017-03-18T05:14:20Z akkad: it's a pair. 2017-03-18T05:14:30Z akkad: there is one commented out 2017-03-18T05:14:41Z Riastradh: I also don't see the text `type:' in the output. 2017-03-18T05:14:53Z akkad: i ommited it 2017-03-18T05:15:33Z Riastradh: Don't omit anything! Reduce the test case, but include everything you actually ran and saw -- in general, it is always a good policy to specify exactly (a) what you typed, (b) what you saw, and (c) what you expected to see. 2017-03-18T05:15:36Z akkad: but any (assoc 'eventVersion x) will return #f 2017-03-18T05:15:43Z npr joined #scheme 2017-03-18T05:16:04Z akkad: yeah type: clearly changes things here 2017-03-18T05:16:07Z Riastradh: Print it with format ~S rather than format ~A. 2017-03-18T05:16:31Z Riastradh: If you omit part of the output, then I'm no longer sure whether you may have omitted other parts of the output. 2017-03-18T05:16:53Z Riastradh: Simpler and shorter to just include `type:' than to omit it and add an addendum saying `by the way, I omitted ``type:'' but everything else is there'. 2017-03-18T05:16:54Z akkad: given the nature of the data, certain values were changed to other equivalent values. 2017-03-18T05:17:00Z akkad: thanks anyways. 2017-03-18T05:17:56Z Riastradh: OK. Redacting sensitive data is a reasonable policy, though you can also do that by editing the input file in order to reduce variables. 2017-03-18T05:18:04Z Riastradh: Now what do you see if you print it with format ~S instead of format ~A? 2017-03-18T05:30:27Z enderby` joined #scheme 2017-03-18T05:30:45Z enderby` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-03-18T05:30:58Z enderby quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-03-18T05:32:43Z bjz joined #scheme 2017-03-18T05:44:03Z manualcrank quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.7) 2017-03-18T05:54:48Z DGASAU quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-03-18T05:58:15Z dbmikus joined #scheme 2017-03-18T06:02:52Z dbmikus quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2017-03-18T06:12:28Z jmd joined #scheme 2017-03-18T06:18:12Z Riastradh: akkad: I bet you'll see what the problem is if you try ~S instead of ~A. 2017-03-18T06:21:18Z npr quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-03-18T06:28:52Z aeth: oh I missed HAL 9000 having fun with humans 2017-03-18T06:28:59Z aeth: oh well 2017-03-18T06:42:44Z vydd joined #scheme 2017-03-18T06:43:13Z vydd quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-03-18T06:46:42Z Kkiro joined #scheme 2017-03-18T06:46:42Z Kkiro quit (Changing host) 2017-03-18T06:46:42Z Kkiro joined #scheme 2017-03-18T06:50:02Z muelleme joined #scheme 2017-03-18T06:55:12Z muelleme quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-03-18T07:15:20Z igajsin joined #scheme 2017-03-18T07:32:48Z jmd quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-03-18T07:34:25Z lambda-11235 quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.7) 2017-03-18T08:14:52Z gravicappa joined #scheme 2017-03-18T08:18:22Z Menche_ joined #scheme 2017-03-18T08:20:43Z Menche quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-03-18T08:43:13Z dbmikus joined #scheme 2017-03-18T08:44:27Z pie____ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-03-18T08:45:04Z vydd joined #scheme 2017-03-18T08:48:22Z dbmikus quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2017-03-18T08:51:10Z vydd quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-03-18T09:03:10Z DGASAU joined #scheme 2017-03-18T09:06:06Z muelleme joined #scheme 2017-03-18T09:06:48Z QuailChaser joined #scheme 2017-03-18T09:08:47Z Menche_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-03-18T09:10:46Z muelleme quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-03-18T09:17:24Z npr joined #scheme 2017-03-18T09:17:24Z muelleme joined #scheme 2017-03-18T09:21:52Z pjb joined #scheme 2017-03-18T09:22:11Z npr quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-03-18T09:28:19Z marcoecc joined #scheme 2017-03-18T09:36:08Z daviid joined #scheme 2017-03-18T09:37:48Z marcoecc quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-03-18T09:38:41Z lambda-smith joined #scheme 2017-03-18T09:40:28Z lucasem quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-03-18T09:40:41Z lucasem joined #scheme 2017-03-18T09:53:09Z vydd joined #scheme 2017-03-18T09:53:09Z vydd quit (Changing host) 2017-03-18T09:53:09Z vydd joined #scheme 2017-03-18T09:54:22Z mg_ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2017-03-18T09:55:37Z Guest45097 joined #scheme 2017-03-18T09:58:48Z Guest45097 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-03-18T09:58:53Z dbmikus joined #scheme 2017-03-18T09:59:00Z Guest45097 joined #scheme 2017-03-18T10:03:24Z dbmikus quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-03-18T10:16:04Z mg_ joined #scheme 2017-03-18T10:45:14Z logicmoo is now known as dmiles 2017-03-18T10:50:55Z bariscant joined #scheme 2017-03-18T11:03:50Z bjz quit (Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. 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(The convention for stopping is to return an eof-object). 2017-03-19T20:06:56Z jcowan: Would this be a Good Thing? 2017-03-19T20:07:33Z Riastradh: What do you use it for? 2017-03-19T20:08:18Z jcowan: It's to make bitstrings fit into the generator/lazy-seq list ecology. 2017-03-19T20:08:25Z ijp quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2017-03-19T20:09:12Z jcowan: You can treat bitstrings as semi-infinite (that is, with a finite number of 0 bits or a finite number of 1 bits) or as finite. 2017-03-19T20:09:22Z jcowan: The question is, which is more general. 2017-03-19T20:09:33Z jcowan: Lists, vectors, etc. doesn't have this semi-infinity. 2017-03-19T20:10:19Z ijp joined #scheme 2017-03-19T20:11:20Z jcowan: s/doesn't/don't 2017-03-19T20:11:40Z fantazo quit (Quit: Verlassend) 2017-03-19T20:21:24Z Fare joined #scheme 2017-03-19T20:26:21Z jmd quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-03-19T20:33:11Z gravicappa quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-03-19T20:36:04Z bariscant quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-03-19T20:43:00Z TheLemonMan joined #scheme 2017-03-19T20:47:10Z stepnem quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-03-19T20:49:05Z stepnem joined #scheme 2017-03-19T20:51:51Z daviid joined #scheme 2017-03-19T20:52:42Z CORDIC: jcowan: Circular lists look like they are infinite, right? 2017-03-19T20:54:24Z jcowan: Well, for some purposes. 2017-03-19T20:54:42Z jcowan: The R7RS length procedure detects them and returns #f 2017-03-19T20:55:00Z jcowan: But yes, a generator based on a circular list would be an infinite one. 2017-03-19T20:55:33Z jcowan: However, *all* integers-as-bits have this property, not just somme of them. 2017-03-19T20:56:05Z Riastradh: Hmm. 2017-03-19T21:01:38Z MrBusiness joined #scheme 2017-03-19T21:02:52Z CORDIC: have You seen https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quote_notation ? 2017-03-19T21:03:07Z bjz_ quit (Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. 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I seem to remember all the tests for racket not running properly 2017-03-20T18:14:32Z ecraven: if I update racket locally, I need to remember to run raco install r7rs, if I forget that, no test succeeds 2017-03-20T18:14:45Z ertes quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-03-20T18:14:45Z ertesx is now known as ertes 2017-03-20T18:14:48Z ecraven: and I did forget two days ago ;) just re-ran the test today (I think?), and pushed the results 2017-03-20T18:15:04Z ft quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-03-20T18:15:17Z ecraven: I should start comparing over different runs, just to make sure I'm not doing something stupid that totally invalidates all the results 2017-03-20T18:17:52Z gravicappa quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-03-20T18:21:40Z ft joined #scheme 2017-03-20T18:31:59Z akkad: ecraven: very nice. been using the older one to help pick my target implementation. 2017-03-20T18:32:16Z Menche_ is now known as Menche 2017-03-20T18:44:14Z marrenarre joined #scheme 2017-03-20T18:45:57Z muelleme joined #scheme 2017-03-20T18:50:15Z bjz joined #scheme 2017-03-20T18:51:23Z muelleme quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-03-20T18:51:52Z marrenarre: Hi. I’m reading R5RS, and it says that `values` might be defined as `(define (values . things) (call-with-current-continuation (lambda (cont) (apply cont things))))`. However, having defined `values` like that, running the code `(call-with-values (lambda () (values 4 5)) (lambda (a b) b))` produces the error message “The procedure #[continuation 13] has been called with 2 arguments; it requires exac 2017-03-20T18:51:58Z marrenarre: tly 1 argument.”. 2017-03-20T18:52:00Z windsing quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-03-20T18:52:09Z marrenarre: (I am using MIT/GNU Scheme.) 2017-03-20T18:53:15Z leppie quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-03-20T18:58:59Z leppie joined #scheme 2017-03-20T19:03:08Z windsing joined #scheme 2017-03-20T19:06:39Z terpri joined #scheme 2017-03-20T19:08:33Z gwatt: mit-scheme must not support variadic arguments to a continuation. 2017-03-20T19:08:57Z gwatt: That definition of values works in guile/chez 2017-03-20T19:10:00Z marrenarre: gwatt: Isn’t that very odd? I would think that it should support it, since it is in the standard. 2017-03-20T19:10:32Z marrenarre: I mean, it was my impression that mit-scheme tries to be very compliant to the standard. 2017-03-20T19:18:33Z ecraven: akkad: as always, ymmv, it's a very inexact test of any scheme's abilities ;) 2017-03-20T19:18:41Z gwatt: marrenarre: http://www.schemers.org/Documents/Standards/R5RS/HTML/ 2017-03-20T19:18:43Z ecraven: `values' is strange on mit 2017-03-20T19:18:49Z manualcrank joined #scheme 2017-03-20T19:18:52Z gwatt: > Except for continuations created by the call-with-values procedure, all continuations take exactly one value. 2017-03-20T19:19:06Z akkad: yeah, the CL equivalents had their pros and cons 2017-03-20T19:19:08Z ecraven: you are not allowed to return multiple values to the repl (or at least it won't display them correctly) 2017-03-20T19:19:13Z akkad: perhaps using sqlite makes more sense 2017-03-20T19:20:07Z gwatt: as r5rs mandates exactly 1 arguments for continuations outside of call-with-values, it makes sense 2017-03-20T19:20:41Z akkad: ecraven: it mirrors the tests I did with http://github.com/kunabi/read-ct 2017-03-20T19:22:16Z gravicappa joined #scheme 2017-03-20T19:28:30Z jcowan: The history of returning multiple values in Scheme has been about relaxing the original tight rule: only one continuation except in call-with-values. In particular, contexts like non-final forms in `begin` can now return multiple (or no) values, 2017-03-20T19:28:47Z jcowan: and it's typical for REPLs to accept them and do something special like printing all the values. 2017-03-20T19:30:25Z gwatt: apparently mit-scheme does this: #[compiled-closure 2 ("global" #x3b) #x5 #x480dd #x1b1c12] 2017-03-20T19:30:39Z jcowan nods. 2017-03-20T19:30:41Z gwatt: (when you run (values 1 2 3 4) at toplevel) 2017-03-20T19:31:31Z jcowan: http://trac.sacrideo.us/wg/wiki/MultipleValues shows what various Schemes do with (+1 (values 2 3)) 2017-03-20T19:32:05Z jcowan: s/+1/+ 1 2017-03-20T19:32:44Z gwatt: I like the idea of expanding out the given values in place. 2017-03-20T19:32:59Z gwatt: So (+ 1 (values 2 3)) would be the same as (+ 1 2 3) 2017-03-20T19:34:08Z gwatt: Though I can see that complicating implementations and slowing down execution 2017-03-20T19:34:28Z TheLemonMan joined #scheme 2017-03-20T19:36:51Z ski doesn't like that idea 2017-03-20T19:38:27Z jcowan: It also makes compilation difficult. In Scheme, (cons (foo)) can be rejected offhand because cons requires two arguments, but if (foo) returns two values, it would be correct under your proposal. 2017-03-20T19:39:02Z jcowan: And there is no way to know how many values a function returns in the general case. 2017-03-20T19:39:22Z turbofail quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2017-03-20T19:40:01Z jcowan: I came up with the idea of a change to the syntax of lambda, such that (lambda 3 (x) (foo)) meant that the procedure returned exactly three values. 2017-03-20T19:40:17Z jcowan: But everyone screamed FUGLY FUGLY 2017-03-20T19:40:55Z gwatt: There might be cases you don't know the return arity 2017-03-20T19:47:51Z bjz quit (Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2017-03-20T19:48:28Z windsing quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-03-20T19:52:13Z turbofail joined #scheme 2017-03-20T19:53:12Z marrenarre: Thank you all for answering. gwatt: Yes, I saw that as well, but in that case, isn’t it a lie to say that the provided code is a possible implementation of `values`? 2017-03-20T19:53:31Z jcowan: gwatt: Sure, this would just be helpful advice for Chicken-type compilers that CPS everything. 2017-03-20T19:53:45Z daviid quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-03-20T19:55:31Z windsing joined #scheme 2017-03-20T19:55:57Z windsing quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-03-20T19:56:23Z windsing joined #scheme 2017-03-20T19:57:29Z gwatt: marrenarre: It might be a lie. But what do you mean when you said "I'm reading R5RS" 2017-03-20T19:58:29Z gwatt: jcowan: that makes sense 2017-03-20T19:58:30Z windsing_ joined #scheme 2017-03-20T19:59:06Z windsing quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-03-20T20:00:16Z Riastradh joined #scheme 2017-03-20T20:00:50Z marrenarre: gwatt: I’m reading this: http://www.schemers.org/Documents/Standards/R5RS/HTML/r5rs-Z-H-9.html#%_sec_6.4 2017-03-20T20:03:21Z Aune quit (Quit: Lämnar) 2017-03-20T20:06:53Z gwatt shrugs 2017-03-20T20:07:52Z gwatt: looks like they're just giving an example. In the previous sentence it states continuations receive 1 and only 1 value 2017-03-20T20:11:39Z ecraven: gwatt: do ((values 1 2 3) list) to see the values 2017-03-20T20:11:41Z ecraven: in mit 2017-03-20T20:12:43Z lemonpie joined #scheme 2017-03-20T20:14:03Z jshjsh joined #scheme 2017-03-20T20:14:23Z sz0 quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2017-03-20T20:15:13Z aeth_ joined #scheme 2017-03-20T20:15:35Z wasa joined #scheme 2017-03-20T20:15:35Z wasa quit (Changing host) 2017-03-20T20:15:35Z wasa joined #scheme 2017-03-20T20:16:32Z profan_ joined #scheme 2017-03-20T20:17:07Z fgudin_ joined #scheme 2017-03-20T20:17:18Z marrenarre: gwatt: An example of something that doesn’t work? :| 2017-03-20T20:17:45Z JoshS quit (Disconnected by services) 2017-03-20T20:17:48Z jshjsh is now known as JoshS 2017-03-20T20:18:01Z lucasem_ joined #scheme 2017-03-20T20:18:16Z tokik_ joined #scheme 2017-03-20T20:18:32Z Vivek__ joined #scheme 2017-03-20T20:18:55Z gwatt: ecraven: ah 2017-03-20T20:19:03Z __shymega__ joined #scheme 2017-03-20T20:19:11Z r0kc4t_ joined #scheme 2017-03-20T20:19:32Z alphor_ joined #scheme 2017-03-20T20:19:36Z aap_ joined #scheme 2017-03-20T20:19:59Z stepnem quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2017-03-20T20:20:03Z reggggie` joined #scheme 2017-03-20T20:20:08Z mrowe_ joined #scheme 2017-03-20T20:20:21Z tephra_ joined #scheme 2017-03-20T20:21:34Z marrenarre: Also, I’m having some trouble understanding `values` and `call-with-values`. It says that `values` delivers all of its arguments to its continuation. What continuation is that? Sounds to me like it should just return its arguments. 2017-03-20T20:21:56Z jrslepak_ joined #scheme 2017-03-20T20:21:59Z Riastradh: `deliver values to continuation' = `return values' 2017-03-20T20:22:01Z carc_ joined #scheme 2017-03-20T20:22:15Z cjh`_ joined #scheme 2017-03-20T20:22:20Z ski_ joined #scheme 2017-03-20T20:22:34Z dcluna_ joined #scheme 2017-03-20T20:22:47Z shymega quit (Disconnected by services) 2017-03-20T20:22:54Z marrenarre: By the way gwatt: thank you for explaining. 2017-03-20T20:23:16Z oleo_ joined #scheme 2017-03-20T20:23:53Z Riastradh: ecraven: FYI, that quirk of MIT Scheme is likely to go away soonish. 2017-03-20T20:23:58Z marrenarre: Oh, yes, I see now that `(values 5)` gives me `5` in Racket Scheme. Maybe I should abandon MIT Scheme. 2017-03-20T20:24:12Z Riastradh: That (values 5) does not just give 5 is a bug in MIT Scheme. 2017-03-20T20:24:58Z marrenarre: And here I was thinking that MIT Scheme was the optimal standards-compliant implementation. 2017-03-20T20:25:13Z marrenarre: Which one do you think is the best for that? SCM? 2017-03-20T20:26:00Z akkad: ecraven: any chance to get guile 2.2? 2017-03-20T20:26:09Z stepnem joined #scheme 2017-03-20T20:27:35Z gravicappa quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-03-20T20:28:34Z gwatt: marrenarre: I'd bet on chez or racket 2017-03-20T20:28:46Z gwatt: well, ok. which rnrs do you care about? 2017-03-20T20:28:48Z MoronicAcid quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2017-03-20T20:29:03Z marrenarre: gwatt: R5RS 2017-03-20T20:29:10Z turbofail quit (*.net *.split) 2017-03-20T20:29:10Z reggggieee quit (*.net *.split) 2017-03-20T20:29:10Z profan quit (*.net *.split) 2017-03-20T20:29:10Z oleo quit (*.net *.split) 2017-03-20T20:29:10Z araujo quit (*.net *.split) 2017-03-20T20:29:11Z dcluna quit (*.net *.split) 2017-03-20T20:29:11Z lucasem quit (*.net *.split) 2017-03-20T20:29:11Z cjh` quit (*.net *.split) 2017-03-20T20:29:11Z wasamasa quit (*.net *.split) 2017-03-20T20:29:11Z aeth quit (*.net *.split) 2017-03-20T20:29:11Z alphor quit (*.net *.split) 2017-03-20T20:29:11Z tephra quit (*.net *.split) 2017-03-20T20:29:12Z jrslepak quit (*.net *.split) 2017-03-20T20:29:12Z r0kc4t quit (*.net *.split) 2017-03-20T20:29:12Z Vivek quit (*.net *.split) 2017-03-20T20:29:12Z carc quit (*.net *.split) 2017-03-20T20:29:12Z esclear quit (*.net *.split) 2017-03-20T20:29:13Z tokik quit (*.net *.split) 2017-03-20T20:29:13Z ski quit (*.net *.split) 2017-03-20T20:29:13Z fgudin quit (*.net *.split) 2017-03-20T20:29:13Z aap quit (*.net *.split) 2017-03-20T20:29:13Z mrowe quit (*.net *.split) 2017-03-20T20:29:14Z Kryo quit (*.net *.split) 2017-03-20T20:29:14Z carc_ is now known as carc 2017-03-20T20:29:15Z dcluna_ is now known as dcluna 2017-03-20T20:29:15Z wasa is now known as wasamasa 2017-03-20T20:29:25Z esclear joined #scheme 2017-03-20T20:29:51Z marrenarre: It says in the description that SCM conforms to R5RS as well as some IEEE specification. Sounds pretty good. 2017-03-20T20:30:00Z araujo joined #scheme 2017-03-20T20:30:00Z araujo quit (Changing host) 2017-03-20T20:30:00Z araujo joined #scheme 2017-03-20T20:30:12Z marrenarre: Though for some reason I am still allowed to mutate a string constant which IIRC should not be allowed. 2017-03-20T20:31:40Z bjz joined #scheme 2017-03-20T20:32:01Z lemonpie: you will, sadly, go insane trying to find the 'right' implementation :/ 2017-03-20T20:34:13Z __shymega__ is now known as shymega 2017-03-20T20:34:16Z ecraven: Riastradh: thanks, I read that in the commit log 2017-03-20T20:35:34Z ecraven: Riastradh: any idea how the unicode thing is coming along? I built from git (still running into that bug where I need to make maintainer-clean and run m4 by hand), and föö seems to work fine, but öff doesn't 2017-03-20T20:36:03Z ecraven: as a symbol, it seems leading non-ascii leads to problems with the reader still 2017-03-20T20:36:42Z marrenarre: lemonpie: Seems like scm might still be my best bet for R5RS compliance. “Scm conforms to Revised^5 Report on the Algorithmic Language Scheme and the IEEE P1178 specification.” sounds pretty good. 2017-03-20T20:36:51Z ski_ is now known as ski 2017-03-20T20:37:30Z wasamasa: SCM? 2017-03-20T20:37:44Z lemonpie: pretty much all R5RS implementations are going to say that, doesn't mean they're complete or bug free :) 2017-03-20T20:38:13Z wasamasa: never heard of that one 2017-03-20T20:38:24Z marrenarre: lemonpie: I want to believe. :( 2017-03-20T20:38:54Z lemonpie: racket's !lang r5rs is probably pretty close, it's a shame they went and focused on being not-scheme 2017-03-20T20:39:07Z lemonpie: or is it #lang r5rs ? i can't remember 2017-03-20T20:39:55Z marrenarre: wasamasa: http://people.csail.mit.edu/jaffer/SCM 2017-03-20T20:40:06Z Kryo joined #scheme 2017-03-20T20:40:50Z marrenarre: lemonpie: #lang 2017-03-20T20:47:08Z reggggie` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-03-20T20:48:09Z igajsin quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-03-20T20:58:02Z Riastradh: ecraven: Dunno, haven't looked closely at it, sounds likely to be a fairly trivial bug. 2017-03-20T20:58:12Z Riastradh: ecraven: What's the problem with m4? 2017-03-20T21:02:35Z civodul joined #scheme 2017-03-20T21:03:41Z zbigniew joined #scheme 2017-03-20T21:07:20Z marrenarre left #scheme 2017-03-20T21:07:22Z badkins quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-03-20T21:11:51Z bariscant joined #scheme 2017-03-20T21:15:45Z bariscant quit (Client Quit) 2017-03-20T21:23:23Z mejja joined #scheme 2017-03-20T21:25:27Z mlaine quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-03-20T21:27:11Z mlaine joined #scheme 2017-03-20T21:28:54Z windsing_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-03-20T21:29:21Z windsing joined #scheme 2017-03-20T21:30:07Z cemerick quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-03-20T21:33:26Z marrenarre joined #scheme 2017-03-20T21:33:45Z windsing quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-03-20T21:33:50Z jaziz joined #scheme 2017-03-20T21:34:59Z daviid joined #scheme 2017-03-20T21:35:34Z marrenarre: It would be impossible to define a (useful) `call-with-values` that takes the values directly, right? How I see it: Each argument must be one value, so therefore `call-with-values` instead takes a procedure that returns those values to “get around this rule”, and then something magic, built in happens in `call-with-values` that calls the consumer. 2017-03-20T21:37:44Z jcowan: marrenarre: Just so 2017-03-20T21:39:35Z jcowan: However, the magic is not necessarily deep magic. 2017-03-20T21:40:04Z marrenarre: Not sure what you mean by “deep”, but I’m thinking it’s at least something you can’t do in Scheme itself? 2017-03-20T21:40:10Z jcowan: In Chibi, returning multiple values is returning a list that begins with a specific pair, and call-with-values just strips off the special pair and calls `apply`. 2017-03-20T21:40:42Z jcowan: (define magic '(values)) 2017-03-20T21:41:01Z jcowan: (define (values . x) (cons magic x)) 2017-03-20T21:41:23Z marrenarre: Ah. Well, at least we cannot construct that by ourselves in a standard way. 2017-03-20T21:41:33Z marrenarre: (And I think you’d need to swap the order of those.) 2017-03-20T21:41:50Z jcowan: (define (call-with-values producer consumer) (apply consumer (cdr (producer)))) 2017-03-20T21:42:08Z jcowan: No, the use of the symbol `values` in the definition of magic is arbitrary. 2017-03-20T21:42:29Z marrenarre: Oh haha I was thinking it said `(,values) or something, my bad. 2017-03-20T21:43:01Z marrenarre: I thought you’d be putting something there that you could later check for identity, for a kind of simple type-checking. 2017-03-20T21:43:19Z marrenarre: Like, if you put the `values` procedure there or something else, you can verify with `eq?`. 2017-03-20T21:43:24Z jcowan: Yes, you can check in call-with-values if the car is the pair named `magic` 2017-03-20T21:43:45Z marrenarre: Oh yeah right you did make it a list. 2017-03-20T21:44:05Z jcowan: call-with-values also has to handle the case in which producer returns a single value, which I didn't do above 2017-03-20T21:44:58Z marrenarre: jcowan: You mean without using `values`? 2017-03-20T21:44:59Z jcowan: Good ways to construct a magic cookie in Scheme are (list 'foo) and (string-copy "foo"), and then test with eq?. 2017-03-20T21:45:04Z jcowan: Right. 2017-03-20T21:45:22Z marrenarre: jcowan: Copying in case of interning? 2017-03-20T21:45:31Z jcowan: Eh? 2017-03-20T21:45:47Z marrenarre: Well, you are calling `string-copy` on the string constant. 2017-03-20T21:46:48Z stepnem quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-03-20T21:47:08Z jcowan: Oh yes, I see. Yes, that is guaranteed to produce a newly allocated object, even if literal strings are interned. So yes. 2017-03-20T21:48:17Z stepnem joined #scheme 2017-03-20T21:48:28Z jcowan: (define (call-with-values producer consumer) (let ((product (producer))) (if (and (pair? product) (eq? (car product) magic)) (consumer (cdr product)) product))) 2017-03-20T21:48:33Z marrenarre: I see. 2017-03-20T21:48:34Z jcowan: There, that's closer to correct 2017-03-20T21:49:47Z marrenarre: Oh? Aren’t you going to call `consumer` on `product` even if it was not created with `values`? 2017-03-20T21:50:22Z jcowan: Oh yes, so change the final instance of "product" to "(consumer product)" 2017-03-20T21:50:46Z jcowan: Because the variable magic is not exposed, there is no way for code to construct a fake multiple-values object. 2017-03-20T21:52:12Z marrenarre: What if they construct one legit and then steal its cookie? 2017-03-20T21:52:37Z badkins joined #scheme 2017-03-20T21:52:40Z jcowan: In that case the programmer deserves to lose. 2017-03-20T21:52:50Z marrenarre: Haha okay. 2017-03-20T21:53:48Z oleo_ quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-03-20T21:54:00Z marrenarre: I was just thinking, even if the `magic` variable were exposed, it would be non-standard to access it anyway. But I suppose it helps to not expose it to prevent accidental access somehow (particularly since often times Scheme systems seem to have their own definitions that are _meant_ to be used). 2017-03-20T21:54:42Z BusFactor1 quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2017-03-20T21:55:05Z marrenarre: Well, `values` and `call-with-values` suddenly seem a lot less scary! 2017-03-20T21:55:21Z marrenarre: But, hey, I gotta ask, what use cases are there? 2017-03-20T21:56:03Z marrenarre will BRB. 2017-03-20T22:00:46Z aeth_ is now known as aeth 2017-03-20T22:03:38Z bjz quit (Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2017-03-20T22:04:46Z TheLemonMan quit (Quit: "It's now safe to turn off your computer.") 2017-03-20T22:06:35Z zbigniew quit (Quit: Lost terminal) 2017-03-20T22:07:07Z oleo joined #scheme 2017-03-20T22:10:14Z daviid` joined #scheme 2017-03-20T22:12:14Z daviid quit (Read error: No route to host) 2017-03-20T22:12:58Z daviid`` joined #scheme 2017-03-20T22:13:51Z jcowan: Basically when you want to return a couple of related results that don't constitute any natural structure. For example, integer division routines compute quotient and remainder at the same time, so it makes sense to be able to return both when the caller needs both. 2017-03-20T22:14:13Z jcowan: If you have only single-valued functions. you have to make the computation twice. 2017-03-20T22:14:28Z daviid` quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-03-20T22:14:46Z jcowan: Alternatively, you can return them in a list, but then the implementation has to construct the list and the caller has to deconstruct it. 2017-03-20T22:14:57Z marrenarre is back. 2017-03-20T22:15:01Z jcowan: Multiple values are no worse than that, but with some implementations they are much better. 2017-03-20T22:15:07Z marrenarre: Ah, so it’s about being efficient, among other things. 2017-03-20T22:15:11Z jcowan nods. 2017-03-20T22:15:50Z jcowan: In Python you can write a, b = foo(), which looks like capturing multiple values, but there is really a tuple object involved. 2017-03-20T22:16:11Z marrenarre: So this feature is particularly useful on systems where any extra values can be silently ignored? 2017-03-20T22:16:35Z marrenarre: The possibly confusing part though is that `a = foo()` would just make `a` the tuple itself. 2017-03-20T22:16:47Z Riastradh: jcowan: When is R7RS-large going to get a good immutable string API? 2017-03-20T22:17:09Z jcowan: Basically the only reason to have second-class things in Scheme is efficiency. So mutable variables can be implemented using boxes (1-tuples), and in many Schemes they are. But it's possible to compile away the boxes in simple cases, which would not be true if you were using explicit boxing and unboxing. 2017-03-20T22:17:44Z lemonpie: Riastradh: i think someone has to resolve srfi-135 vs srfi-140 first or something 2017-03-20T22:18:53Z marrenarre: Ah so by introducing very _simple_ abstractions a compiler can more easily assume things that would _probably_ be true anyway. 2017-03-20T22:19:10Z jcowan: Just so. 2017-03-20T22:19:16Z marrenarre: More _restrictive_ abstractions, I guess you could call it. 2017-03-20T22:19:38Z turbofail joined #scheme 2017-03-20T22:19:43Z marrenarre: I really like that “Just so.” (as well as your way of writing in general). :) 2017-03-20T22:19:52Z jcowan: Yes, which is why they are called second-class. 2017-03-20T22:20:29Z marrenarre: Ah. So it’s kind of informally defined whether something is second-class? 2017-03-20T22:20:32Z jcowan: Thanks 2017-03-20T22:20:36Z marrenarre: Like weak vs. strong typing. 2017-03-20T22:20:36Z jcowan: Yes, informally. 2017-03-20T22:21:07Z jcowan: Data and procedures and the values they amass, 2017-03-20T22:21:07Z jcowan: Higher-order functions to combine and mix and match, 2017-03-20T22:21:07Z jcowan: Objects with their local state, the messages they pass, 2017-03-20T22:21:07Z jcowan: A property, a package, the control point for a catch– 2017-03-20T22:21:07Z jcowan: In the Lambda Order they are all first-class. 2017-03-20T22:21:08Z jcowan: One Thing to name them all, One Thing to define them, 2017-03-20T22:21:10Z jcowan: One Thing to place them in environments and bind them, 2017-03-20T22:21:12Z jcowan: In the Lambda order they are all first-class. 2017-03-20T22:21:16Z jcowan: --R2RS 2017-03-20T22:21:20Z marrenarre: I guess I only really heard about first-class before anyway. Well, I know functions are not first-class in e.g. C. 2017-03-20T22:21:39Z jcowan: Function pointers are first-class. 2017-03-20T22:22:11Z marrenarre: Yes. But not functions themselves. At least you can’t create them at runtime. (Or is that unrelated?) 2017-03-20T22:22:24Z tmtwd joined #scheme 2017-03-20T22:22:45Z jaziz quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-03-20T22:22:48Z jcowan: It's not so much that you can't, but that there is no point in doing so, because all variables in C are local or global: there are no meaningful nested scopes. 2017-03-20T22:23:20Z marrenarre: That’s some nice writing in R2RS. 2017-03-20T22:23:21Z jcowan: You can't create a procedure as such in Scheme either, except with eval, but you can close over a procedure in a variety of ways. 2017-03-20T22:24:28Z marrenarre: jcowan: Oh, yeah, I guess creating arbitrary functions would be sort of the same in C and Scheme (though easier in Scheme still). 2017-03-20T22:24:46Z marrenarre: Well, at least you can create procedures with new identities, from the same code. 2017-03-20T22:27:07Z marrenarre: (And they have new environments to run in.) 2017-03-20T22:31:19Z civodul quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 25.1.1)) 2017-03-20T22:36:02Z mrowe_ is now known as mrowe 2017-03-20T22:40:37Z bjz joined #scheme 2017-03-20T22:45:58Z bjz quit (Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. 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I'm putting it in my fortune file. 2017-03-20T22:50:03Z JoshS quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-03-20T22:58:16Z jaziz joined #scheme 2017-03-20T23:02:10Z daviid`` quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2017-03-20T23:04:26Z jcowan quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-03-20T23:16:36Z taylan quit (Disconnected by services) 2017-03-20T23:16:44Z taylan joined #scheme 2017-03-20T23:27:15Z marrenarre: Thanks everyone, particularly jcowan, for helping me understand `values` and `call-with-values`! 2017-03-20T23:27:31Z marrenarre quit (Quit: leaving) 2017-03-20T23:33:05Z windsing joined #scheme 2017-03-20T23:34:05Z stepnem quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-03-20T23:34:27Z alphor_ is now known as alphor 2017-03-20T23:41:02Z taylan quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-03-20T23:41:16Z taylan joined #scheme 2017-03-20T23:47:42Z lambda-11235 joined #scheme 2017-03-20T23:50:31Z nomicflux joined #scheme 2017-03-20T23:55:00Z jaziz quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-03-21T00:00:58Z masoudd quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-03-21T00:02:15Z MoronicAcid joined #scheme 2017-03-21T00:09:01Z cemerick joined #scheme 2017-03-21T00:11:08Z Riastradh quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-03-21T00:20:23Z sethalves quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2017-03-21T00:24:45Z zbigniew joined #scheme 2017-03-21T00:29:25Z strykerkkd joined #scheme 2017-03-21T00:30:22Z turbofail quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-03-21T00:35:25Z daviid joined #scheme 2017-03-21T00:44:48Z safe joined #scheme 2017-03-21T00:54:31Z cemerick quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-03-21T00:55:16Z cemerick joined #scheme 2017-03-21T01:10:56Z lritter_ joined #scheme 2017-03-21T01:10:58Z cemerick quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-03-21T01:11:04Z noethics joined #scheme 2017-03-21T01:16:49Z shdeng joined #scheme 2017-03-21T01:23:08Z strykerkkd quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-03-21T01:23:23Z X-Scale quit (Quit: HydraIRC -> http://www.hydrairc.com <- IRC with a difference) 2017-03-21T01:28:57Z lloda quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2017-03-21T01:42:26Z wtetzner joined #scheme 2017-03-21T01:51:57Z daviid quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-03-21T01:52:43Z pie__ quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2017-03-21T02:11:57Z cemerick joined #scheme 2017-03-21T02:18:26Z X-Scale joined #scheme 2017-03-21T02:26:03Z mejja quit (Quit: \ No newline at end of file) 2017-03-21T02:26:48Z nomicflux quit (Quit: nomicflux) 2017-03-21T02:33:53Z JoshS joined #scheme 2017-03-21T02:46:06Z jaziz joined #scheme 2017-03-21T02:56:51Z noethics quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-03-21T02:57:01Z tokik_ quit (Quit: leaving) 2017-03-21T02:57:24Z tokik joined #scheme 2017-03-21T03:05:08Z ulyaoth joined #scheme 2017-03-21T03:05:46Z ulyaoth: uuum, do you consider scheme to be successful? 2017-03-21T03:06:13Z ulyaoth: is it even used widely? 2017-03-21T03:06:17Z qu1j0t3: define 'success' 2017-03-21T03:06:24Z ulyaoth: widespread use 2017-03-21T03:06:42Z ulyaoth: reason it was created for was achieved 2017-03-21T03:06:51Z takitus: ulyaoth: Scheme is full of success. 2017-03-21T03:07:00Z ulyaoth: isn't that lisp? 2017-03-21T03:07:54Z ulyaoth: are there even people that use scheme on their daily jobs? 2017-03-21T03:11:05Z ulyaoth: would you say that common lisp is more popular than scheme? 2017-03-21T03:11:55Z Menche quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-03-21T03:15:04Z takitus: ulyaoth: You seem to have your opinions figured out, so what's the point of these questions? 2017-03-21T03:15:31Z ulyaoth: i actually can't form an opinion 2017-03-21T03:15:44Z ulyaoth: i don't know how good of an asset scheme can be 2017-03-21T03:19:05Z takitus: Why not learn the language and then decide if it's an asset? 2017-03-21T03:19:37Z cemerick quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-03-21T03:19:42Z ulyaoth: in roughly a year i will be out in the job market 2017-03-21T03:19:49Z ulyaoth: i learned some for a project 2017-03-21T03:20:01Z ulyaoth: so i don't know if i should dig further 2017-03-21T03:20:11Z ulyaoth: i'm asking people that have, if they think it's worth it 2017-03-21T03:20:29Z cemerick joined #scheme 2017-03-21T03:20:52Z ulyaoth: it's the first functional language i saw too, so my feelings are mixed 2017-03-21T03:21:19Z takitus: It's a great language. Even if you don't use it for a job, it will change the way you think about programming if you really take the time to understand it. 2017-03-21T03:26:39Z windsing quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-03-21T03:28:06Z kori: ulyaoth: scheme did find success as an educational tool 2017-03-21T03:28:17Z kori: as a "production tool", scheme found success as racket 2017-03-21T03:28:19Z ulyaoth: i was just reading about that actually 2017-03-21T03:28:33Z takitus: ulyaoth: But if you're looking for a trendy/profitable (in the narrow sense) language, you probably know you're in the wrong place. 2017-03-21T03:28:49Z ulyaoth: oh heavens no 2017-03-21T03:28:50Z aeth: Afaik, in popularity it is Clojure > Common Lisp > Scheme/Racket/etc. 2017-03-21T03:29:05Z kori: aeth: no, CL is still a bit bigger than clojure but thats changing 2017-03-21T03:29:06Z aeth: Clojure is a very, very strange Lisp, though. Common Lisp is afaik much closer to Scheme, although with some key differences. 2017-03-21T03:29:08Z ulyaoth: my favorite language is and will always be C 2017-03-21T03:29:23Z aeth: kori: Depends on the measurement. It's hard to measure popularity. 2017-03-21T03:29:40Z ulyaoth: but your point about changing the way you think in programming was really nice 2017-03-21T03:30:11Z kori: aeth: scratch that 2017-03-21T03:30:16Z kori: clojure is more popular than CL now 2017-03-21T03:30:19Z takitus: ulyaoth: I came to Scheme from a C background. It was a serious eye-opener. 2017-03-21T03:30:20Z kori: metric: gh repos 2017-03-21T03:30:36Z kori: ulyaoth: "will always be" is kind of a thing you shouldn't do 2017-03-21T03:30:43Z aeth: That's not that good of a measurement. It undercounts commercial languages and languages that are used in mature code that might not have moved to the trendy Github. 2017-03-21T03:30:48Z aeth: And overcounts JavaScript 2017-03-21T03:30:53Z ulyaoth: personally i find oo languages annoying 2017-03-21T03:30:54Z aeth: It also overcounts languages that for some reason have tons of forks 2017-03-21T03:31:00Z kori: "trendy github" oh please github is pretty much a standard platform now and has been for years 2017-03-21T03:31:09Z ulyaoth: i prefer emulating stuff like inheritance or class in C 2017-03-21T03:31:17Z ulyaoth: with void pointer functions 2017-03-21T03:31:21Z ulyaoth: structs and so on 2017-03-21T03:31:26Z aeth: There are still plenty of things that are on Sourceforge CVS or SVN (or maybe moved to git, but not off of Sourceforge) 2017-03-21T03:31:31Z aeth: Or some other site. 2017-03-21T03:31:38Z kori: aeth: github is much bigger than sourceforge ever was 2017-03-21T03:31:44Z kori: ulyaoth: that's weird 2017-03-21T03:31:48Z kori: anyway, check out the little schemer 2017-03-21T03:31:51Z aeth: You're still overcounting new software relative to old, though. 2017-03-21T03:31:57Z aeth: Not all the software that predates Github is on Github 2017-03-21T03:32:03Z kori: aeth: sure 2017-03-21T03:32:20Z kori: ulyaoth: its probably a good primer for scheme 2017-03-21T03:32:32Z ulyaoth: primer? 2017-03-21T03:32:43Z kori: "a good first book" 2017-03-21T03:33:07Z kori: its available for free online 2017-03-21T03:35:30Z takitus: Also, TSPL: http://www.scheme.com/tspl4/ 2017-03-21T03:36:34Z lritter__ joined #scheme 2017-03-21T03:40:29Z wtetzner quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-03-21T03:40:34Z lritter_ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2017-03-21T03:42:17Z emacsomancer joined #scheme 2017-03-21T03:46:57Z emacsomancer quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 25.1.1)) 2017-03-21T03:47:47Z emacsomancer joined #scheme 2017-03-21T03:49:21Z ArneBab_ joined #scheme 2017-03-21T03:53:39Z ArneBab quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-03-21T03:58:16Z emacsomancer quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 25.1.1)) 2017-03-21T03:59:03Z windsing joined #scheme 2017-03-21T03:59:20Z emacsomancer joined #scheme 2017-03-21T03:59:42Z emacsomancer quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-03-21T04:00:16Z emacsomancer joined #scheme 2017-03-21T04:07:59Z kvda joined #scheme 2017-03-21T04:10:17Z badkins quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-03-21T04:13:48Z MoronicAcid quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-03-21T04:21:45Z sethalves joined #scheme 2017-03-21T04:24:51Z safe quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-03-21T04:29:05Z takitus quit (Quit: bye) 2017-03-21T04:40:58Z X-Scale quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-03-21T04:44:09Z X-Scale joined #scheme 2017-03-21T05:02:48Z kvda quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-03-21T05:04:05Z qu1j0t3 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-03-21T05:06:15Z qu1j0t3 joined #scheme 2017-03-21T05:09:55Z windsing quit 2017-03-21T05:17:35Z ZombieChicken quit (Quit: leaving) 2017-03-21T05:19:28Z tmtwd quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-03-21T05:20:21Z ZombieChicken joined #scheme 2017-03-21T05:37:20Z zaquest quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-03-21T05:52:57Z cibs quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-03-21T05:55:07Z cibs joined #scheme 2017-03-21T05:55:47Z fiddlerwoaroof quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-03-21T05:58:54Z fiddlerwoaroof joined #scheme 2017-03-21T06:02:06Z Menche joined #scheme 2017-03-21T06:15:39Z igajsin joined #scheme 2017-03-21T06:25:31Z oleo quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-03-21T06:38:44Z Menche quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-03-21T06:39:21Z Menche joined #scheme 2017-03-21T06:42:31Z manualcrank quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.7) 2017-03-21T07:09:56Z zaquest joined #scheme 2017-03-21T07:10:45Z PinealGlandOptic joined #scheme 2017-03-21T07:23:13Z lambda-11235 quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.7) 2017-03-21T07:51:02Z muelleme joined #scheme 2017-03-21T07:57:33Z bariscant joined #scheme 2017-03-21T08:01:55Z bjz joined #scheme 2017-03-21T08:05:52Z leppie quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-03-21T08:10:40Z leppie joined #scheme 2017-03-21T08:15:26Z stepnem joined #scheme 2017-03-21T08:17:46Z muelleme quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2017-03-21T08:21:25Z terpri quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-03-21T08:25:15Z jaziz quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2017-03-21T08:31:16Z zacts quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2017-03-21T08:45:36Z zacts joined #scheme 2017-03-21T08:50:28Z gravicappa joined #scheme 2017-03-21T09:21:50Z boycottg00gle joined #scheme 2017-03-21T09:23:44Z boycottg00gle quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-03-21T09:29:10Z r0kc4t_ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2017-03-21T09:44:55Z Riastradh joined #scheme 2017-03-21T09:50:36Z ventonegro joined #scheme 2017-03-21T10:29:39Z civodul joined #scheme 2017-03-21T10:59:00Z civodul quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-03-21T11:00:53Z bariscant quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2017-03-21T11:28:01Z bariscant joined #scheme 2017-03-21T12:09:26Z cemerick quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2017-03-21T12:09:45Z cemerick joined #scheme 2017-03-21T12:12:29Z shdeng quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-03-21T12:16:43Z nomicflux joined #scheme 2017-03-21T12:17:58Z bjz_ joined #scheme 2017-03-21T12:19:05Z bjz quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-03-21T12:19:07Z cemerick quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-03-21T12:19:31Z nomicflux quit (Client Quit) 2017-03-21T12:19:32Z cemerick joined #scheme 2017-03-21T13:02:07Z civodul joined #scheme 2017-03-21T13:03:05Z badkins joined #scheme 2017-03-21T13:03:58Z BusFacto_ joined #scheme 2017-03-21T13:34:01Z bariscant quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-03-21T13:46:38Z cromachina quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-03-21T13:57:00Z r0kc4t joined #scheme 2017-03-21T14:00:10Z Menche quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-03-21T14:00:35Z Menche joined #scheme 2017-03-21T14:02:20Z PinealGlandOptic quit (Quit: leaving) 2017-03-21T14:03:56Z pie__ joined #scheme 2017-03-21T14:09:38Z bjz_ quit (Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. 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Is there any procedure in R5RS that returns multiple values, other than the `values` procedure? 2017-03-21T18:05:56Z masoudd joined #scheme 2017-03-21T18:11:41Z ertesx joined #scheme 2017-03-21T18:12:28Z jcowan: No. But in R7RS, there is exact-integer-sqrt and some of the integer division procedures. 2017-03-21T18:12:42Z jmd joined #scheme 2017-03-21T18:13:16Z jmd quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-03-21T18:15:27Z ertes quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-03-21T18:15:27Z ertesx is now known as ertes 2017-03-21T18:17:04Z gravicappa quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-03-21T18:25:14Z acarrico quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-03-21T18:43:37Z vydd joined #scheme 2017-03-21T18:43:44Z JoshS quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-03-21T18:50:04Z lritter__ quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2017-03-21T19:00:36Z gravicappa joined #scheme 2017-03-21T19:03:48Z masoudd left #scheme 2017-03-21T19:09:06Z marrenarre: jcowan: Interesting. Thanks. 2017-03-21T19:09:13Z marrenarre quit (Quit: leaving) 2017-03-21T19:15:22Z muelleme joined #scheme 2017-03-21T19:20:26Z zaquest quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-03-21T19:27:05Z terpri joined #scheme 2017-03-21T19:31:44Z muelleme quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-03-21T19:33:29Z BusFact__ joined #scheme 2017-03-21T19:35:57Z BusFacto_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-03-21T20:02:36Z leppie quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2017-03-21T20:06:48Z leppie joined #scheme 2017-03-21T20:11:52Z TheLemonMan joined #scheme 2017-03-21T20:16:43Z zaquest joined #scheme 2017-03-21T20:25:16Z akkad hunts for the most complete scheme on golang 2017-03-21T20:26:13Z phale joined #scheme 2017-03-21T20:26:39Z phale: which scheme should i use? from what ive seen there is PLT scheme, MIT scheme and CHICKEN scheme 2017-03-21T20:26:52Z phale: I like how you can compile Scheme programs with CHICKEN and how it had "eggs" so I thought it was cool 2017-03-21T20:26:55Z qu1j0t3: try em all and see which you like best? 2017-03-21T20:27:17Z qu1j0t3: chicken is pretty good all round. 2017-03-21T20:27:45Z phale: ok ill try the others then and see if i like em more 2017-03-21T20:29:13Z gravicappa quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-03-21T20:42:43Z Menche quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-03-21T20:46:01Z Riastradh joined #scheme 2017-03-21T20:49:14Z bjz joined #scheme 2017-03-21T20:52:08Z BusFact__ is now known as burtons 2017-03-21T21:06:52Z bariscant joined #scheme 2017-03-21T21:07:28Z akkad: burtons: you wrote Lispworks apps right? 2017-03-21T21:08:46Z burtons: i do, yes 2017-03-21T21:08:57Z burtons: i've got 3 in the app store so far 2017-03-21T21:09:06Z phale left #scheme 2017-03-21T21:16:52Z reggggieee quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-03-21T21:20:01Z akkad: you need to remove your license when you call deliver 2017-03-21T21:20:58Z akkad: (deliver :license-info nil ...) 2017-03-21T21:20:58Z akkad: 2017-03-21T21:24:23Z burtons: what's going out with the apps? 2017-03-21T21:24:32Z burtons: the lispworks license? 2017-03-21T21:26:46Z akkad: not the key, but yeah, your license itself. 2017-03-21T21:27:05Z akkad: want the number? :P 2017-03-21T21:27:23Z akkad: strings your bin, you'll see it 2017-03-21T21:27:52Z akkad: burtons: we did the same thing on our first product on LW 2017-03-21T21:29:21Z bjz quit (Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2017-03-21T21:33:45Z burtons: ooh 2017-03-21T21:33:46Z dbmikus quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.7) 2017-03-21T21:33:55Z burtons: thanks 2017-03-21T21:34:20Z burtons: wonder why they would include that by default 2017-03-21T21:35:30Z Menche joined #scheme 2017-03-21T21:40:32Z igajsin quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-03-21T21:41:01Z akkad: so you bought enterprise for osx and linux? 2017-03-21T21:51:57Z enderby joined #scheme 2017-03-21T21:54:41Z burtons: osx 2017-03-21T21:55:26Z burtons: what are you using? 2017-03-21T21:55:51Z burtons: i'm interested in expert systems so i thought i'd pick it up for KnowledgeWorks 2017-03-21T21:56:46Z akkad: we do freebsd. 2017-03-21T21:56:54Z akkad: and also allegro. on freebsd. 2017-03-21T21:59:19Z strykerkkd joined #scheme 2017-03-21T22:02:01Z burtons: i got solaris professional as well 2017-03-21T22:02:22Z burtons: what kind of stuff are you writing? 2017-03-21T22:03:40Z akkad: security apps for embedded devices. 2017-03-21T22:03:56Z akkad: I just do devops. but play with CL for fun. 2017-03-21T22:04:28Z akkad: http://github.com/kunabi/kunabi silly stuff like this. wanted to make it into a CAPI app. 2017-03-21T22:16:41Z burtons: nice 2017-03-21T22:16:59Z akkad: so your stuff was very nice to see. 2017-03-21T22:17:06Z akkad: bought both, that I could find 2017-03-21T22:17:26Z burtons: i'm just writing silly games and hopefully useful utilities right now until i figure out the whole process of deploying to the app store 2017-03-21T22:17:27Z burtons: oh, cool :) 2017-03-21T22:17:28Z burtons: i just got a new one in 2017-03-21T22:17:34Z burtons: "Largest Directories and Files" 2017-03-21T22:17:58Z akkad: nice. 2017-03-21T22:18:01Z burtons: Just search for busfactor1 in the app store, that lists all my stuff 2017-03-21T22:19:05Z burtons: Got two more on the go...the approval process takes longer than writing the software so far 2017-03-21T22:22:20Z jrslepak_ is now known as jrslepak 2017-03-21T22:39:21Z lambda-11235 joined 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(Remote host closed the connection) 2017-03-22T00:12:21Z sethalves quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-03-22T00:31:40Z wasamasa is now known as {{{ 2017-03-22T00:31:59Z nomicflux joined #scheme 2017-03-22T00:32:38Z {{{ is now known as }}} 2017-03-22T00:32:47Z }}} is now known as bagelmasa 2017-03-22T00:32:56Z bagelmasa is now known as wasa 2017-03-22T00:33:09Z terpri quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-03-22T00:47:03Z sz0 joined #scheme 2017-03-22T00:47:21Z cibs quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2017-03-22T00:49:15Z cibs joined #scheme 2017-03-22T00:50:34Z cemerick quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-03-22T00:53:40Z strykerkkd quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-03-22T00:59:48Z pjb quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-03-22T01:01:47Z wtetzner joined #scheme 2017-03-22T01:06:20Z noethics joined #scheme 2017-03-22T01:07:18Z sethalves joined #scheme 2017-03-22T01:09:30Z lambda-11235 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-03-22T01:09:31Z noethics quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-03-22T01:09:53Z noethics joined #scheme 2017-03-22T01:11:30Z lambda-11235 joined #scheme 2017-03-22T01:14:23Z shdeng joined #scheme 2017-03-22T01:17:57Z lexicall joined #scheme 2017-03-22T01:22:40Z stepnem quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-03-22T01:24:35Z pie__ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-03-22T01:25:06Z JoshS joined #scheme 2017-03-22T01:25:47Z acarrico joined #scheme 2017-03-22T01:52:20Z akkad: sagittarius is pretty fast 2017-03-22T01:53:50Z qu1j0t3: i'm sagittarius and i'm really slow 2017-03-22T01:53:52Z qu1j0t3: just saying 2017-03-22T01:55:18Z akkad: for not emitting c code rather 2017-03-22T01:58:26Z lexicall quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-03-22T02:00:22Z cibs quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2017-03-22T02:01:16Z lexicall joined #scheme 2017-03-22T02:02:09Z cibs joined #scheme 2017-03-22T02:05:28Z lexicall quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-03-22T02:07:31Z lambda-11235 quit (Read error: 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That's why I'm answering an hour later. 2017-03-22T03:02:03Z akkad: hi edgar-rft 2017-03-22T03:03:58Z enderby left #scheme 2017-03-22T03:06:16Z akkad: XB 2017-03-22T03:13:18Z vydd joined #scheme 2017-03-22T03:15:09Z nomicflux joined #scheme 2017-03-22T03:18:24Z vydd quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-03-22T03:22:30Z adu quit (Quit: adu) 2017-03-22T03:38:20Z adu joined #scheme 2017-03-22T03:41:22Z acarrico quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-03-22T03:41:52Z nomicflux quit (Quit: nomicflux) 2017-03-22T03:43:45Z safe joined #scheme 2017-03-22T03:47:58Z ArneBab joined #scheme 2017-03-22T03:50:22Z adu quit (Quit: adu) 2017-03-22T03:52:05Z ArneBab_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-03-22T04:07:00Z lexicall joined #scheme 2017-03-22T04:08:09Z wtetzner quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-03-22T04:11:38Z lexicall quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2017-03-22T04:16:39Z akkad: hmm. is define-method typical? noticed in Gauche (define (foo x) x) and (define foo (lambda (x) x)) do not work as other schemes. thought that was standard. 2017-03-22T04:34:00Z JoshS quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-03-22T04:41:45Z edgar-rft: hi akkad 2017-03-22T05:01:27Z lritter__ joined #scheme 2017-03-22T05:14:28Z vydd joined #scheme 2017-03-22T05:15:19Z eMBee quit (Quit: leaving) 2017-03-22T05:15:29Z eMBee joined #scheme 2017-03-22T05:19:04Z vydd quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2017-03-22T05:24:03Z muelleme joined #scheme 2017-03-22T05:24:23Z sz0 quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2017-03-22T05:24:28Z edgar-rft quit (Quit: edgar-rft) 2017-03-22T05:30:27Z daviid quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-03-22T05:35:56Z safe quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-03-22T05:40:08Z muelleme quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-03-22T05:45:06Z snits joined #scheme 2017-03-22T05:47:08Z muelleme joined #scheme 2017-03-22T06:00:14Z JoshS joined #scheme 2017-03-22T06:12:13Z igajsin joined #scheme 2017-03-22T06:12:22Z r0kc4t quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-03-22T06:12:42Z oleo quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-03-22T06:13:19Z X-Scale quit (Quit: HydraIRC -> http://www.hydrairc.com <- Like it? 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ZZZzzz…) 2017-03-22T19:49:02Z akkad: o|O 2017-03-22T19:49:14Z akkad: love slime for cl, did not realize it was an option for scheme 2017-03-22T19:49:57Z MoronicAcid quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-03-22T19:52:26Z reggggieee joined #scheme 2017-03-22T19:56:08Z muelleme joined #scheme 2017-03-22T19:57:36Z raduom joined #scheme 2017-03-22T20:03:49Z cemerick quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-03-22T20:04:48Z zacts quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-03-22T20:07:13Z igajsin quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-03-22T20:16:25Z badkins quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-03-22T20:17:11Z fantazo joined #scheme 2017-03-22T20:17:42Z acarrico joined #scheme 2017-03-22T20:17:48Z muelleme quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2017-03-22T20:29:05Z adu quit (Quit: adu) 2017-03-22T20:31:58Z badkins joined #scheme 2017-03-22T20:42:41Z bariscant joined #scheme 2017-03-22T20:44:13Z edgar-rft quit (Quit: edgar-rft) 2017-03-22T20:49:13Z acarrico quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-03-22T20:55:18Z muelleme joined #scheme 2017-03-22T20:58:16Z fantazo quit (Quit: Verlassend) 2017-03-22T20:59:30Z pchrist quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-03-22T20:59:34Z ecraven: mit works decently. I think chicken might have a backend too? 2017-03-22T21:00:06Z wasamasa: it has, no idea whether it still works 2017-03-22T21:02:27Z wtetzner joined #scheme 2017-03-22T21:10:45Z ecraven: I wrote a basic one for chibi once, but that has bitrotted, I think 2017-03-22T21:11:07Z ecraven: once you know the protocol a bit, a basic swank server isn't very hard to write 2017-03-22T21:11:17Z ecraven: harder to get to know the internals of the target scheme system 2017-03-22T21:13:43Z MoronicAcid joined #scheme 2017-03-22T21:20:22Z burtons quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2017-03-22T21:22:00Z gravicappa quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-03-22T21:30:45Z bariscant quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-03-22T21:32:45Z DeeEff: wasamasa: the CHICKEN egg for using SLIME still works IIRC but there's a naming error somewhere. I believe I had to rename a procedure when using a modern SLIME / SLIMV version 2017-03-22T21:35:20Z ecraven: might be interesting to write a "portable" slime for schemes 2017-03-22T21:35:31Z ecraven: where you just have to plug in a few scheme-specific functions 2017-03-22T21:36:09Z wasamasa: I thought geiser was supposed to be that 2017-03-22T21:36:15Z wasamasa: but it does in-band communication ;___; 2017-03-22T21:39:10Z wtetzner quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-03-22T21:39:46Z ecraven: well, geiser does not do everything slime does yet.. both of them are not ideal, but work well enough 2017-03-22T21:42:29Z pie__ joined #scheme 2017-03-22T21:43:27Z muelleme quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-03-22T21:43:50Z jaziz joined #scheme 2017-03-22T21:45:54Z lemonpie: i just use the regular scheme-mode, geiser has a habit of causing spurious buffers to open, and occasionally hangs emacs for me 2017-03-22T21:46:16Z lemonpie: well, scheme-mode with chicken-mode installed, which adds a couple of things I think 2017-03-22T21:51:22Z pie__ quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-03-22T22:03:30Z daviid joined #scheme 2017-03-22T22:04:27Z jcowan quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-03-22T22:04:51Z alphor joined #scheme 2017-03-22T22:13:39Z TheLemonMan quit (Quit: "It's now safe to turn off your computer.") 2017-03-22T22:19:38Z strykerkkd quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-03-22T22:22:05Z jcowan joined #scheme 2017-03-22T22:29:07Z burtons joined #scheme 2017-03-22T22:39:11Z civodul quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 25.1.1)) 2017-03-22T22:40:05Z muelleme joined #scheme 2017-03-22T22:41:22Z vydd quit 2017-03-22T22:44:52Z muelleme quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2017-03-22T22:52:33Z Menche joined #scheme 2017-03-22T22:53:10Z jcowan_ joined #scheme 2017-03-22T22:55:13Z jcowan quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-03-22T22:56:59Z bjz joined #scheme 2017-03-22T23:19:57Z Riastradh quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-03-22T23:20:10Z yrdz joined #scheme 2017-03-22T23:20:10Z dmiles quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-03-22T23:21:56Z dmiles joined #scheme 2017-03-22T23:22:39Z sethalves quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2017-03-22T23:30:51Z acarrico joined #scheme 2017-03-22T23:33:28Z reggggieee quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-03-22T23:34:34Z acarrico quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-03-22T23:40:48Z muelleme joined #scheme 2017-03-22T23:46:20Z muelleme quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2017-03-22T23:52:39Z pjb quit (Quit: Good night!) 2017-03-22T23:56:30Z foof` joined #scheme 2017-03-22T23:56:56Z foof quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-03-23T00:02:48Z akkad: #go 2017-03-23T00:03:28Z jlongster quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. 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please the compiler. 2017-03-23T08:55:56Z C-Keen: X-Scale: if without an else expression is invalid in R5RS 2017-03-23T08:57:20Z X-Scale: Check page 10 on http://www.schemers.org/Documents/Standards/R5RS/r5rs.pdf 2017-03-23T08:57:29Z X-Scale: Both forms are allowed 2017-03-23T08:58:40Z X-Scale: (if ) and (if ) 2017-03-23T08:59:00Z C-Keen: ah indeed 2017-03-23T08:59:09Z C-Keen: J 2017-03-23T08:59:25Z X-Scale: (if ) is useful when you only care about the side effects. 2017-03-23T08:59:55Z C-Keen: maybe ask in #racket 2017-03-23T09:01:02Z X-Scale: Thanks, C-Keen 2017-03-23T09:01:50Z edgar-rft: https://docs.racket-lang.org/reference/if.html 2017-03-23T09:04:14Z X-Scale: thanks, edgar-rft 2017-03-23T09:04:20Z X-Scale: the rationale -> http://stackoverflow.com/questions/10863192/why-is-one-armed-if-missing-from-racket 2017-03-23T09:04:23Z X-Scale: sigh 2017-03-23T09:04:40Z fiddlerwoaroof quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-03-23T09:05:11Z Guest59140 is now known as z0d 2017-03-23T09:05:12Z X-Scale: So, it's not totally compatible with R5RS 2017-03-23T09:05:36Z X-Scale: is there some "#lang scheme-r5rs" to give me back such compatibility ? 2017-03-23T09:05:48Z civodul joined #scheme 2017-03-23T09:06:18Z edgar-rft: The good thing in Scheme is that there are *many* incompatible standards to choose from. 2017-03-23T09:07:43Z X-Scale: :) 2017-03-23T09:10:17Z X-Scale: "#lang r5rs" solved it 2017-03-23T09:12:01Z fiddlerwoaroof joined #scheme 2017-03-23T09:12:11Z greatscottttt joined #scheme 2017-03-23T09:18:58Z cibs quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2017-03-23T09:20:30Z bariscant joined #scheme 2017-03-23T09:20:43Z cibs joined #scheme 2017-03-23T09:20:46Z bariscant quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-03-23T09:21:05Z bariscant joined #scheme 2017-03-23T09:26:34Z daviid quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2017-03-23T09:35:11Z Grisha is now known as test_test_test 2017-03-23T09:35:40Z test_test_test is now known as Baklazhan 2017-03-23T10:03:55Z marvin2 joined #scheme 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Can these little langs can be USEFUL....All I can think of is maybe as teaching tools!?! 2017-03-23T20:21:45Z theseb: they're just sooo cool and mathematical and elegant i want to do something with the little lisp i made 2017-03-23T20:22:36Z wasamasa: well, MAL has been used by its author as embedded scripting language 2017-03-23T20:22:50Z wasamasa: interim's lisp is good enough for writing graphical demos and having fun like it's 1980 2017-03-23T20:23:17Z wasamasa: and scheme, well, it was originally developed for reasoning 2017-03-23T20:26:34Z lemonpie: i think picolisp takes it too far tho, it's string handling is barely enough to do anything without writing code that is almost certainly ineffecient 2017-03-23T20:27:31Z muelleme joined #scheme 2017-03-23T20:28:48Z wasamasa: I found its string handling interesting 2017-03-23T20:29:18Z wasamasa: didn't write a proper lexer before because I could get away with regex, with picolisp I made use of its, let's say, stream processing 2017-03-23T20:29:22Z jcowan: scheme was originally developed to investigate the actor model 2017-03-23T20:29:24Z lemonpie: well, it's lispy, i guess, having to convert every string to a list of chars and use list functions on it, then convert it back to a string 2017-03-23T20:30:02Z wasamasa: interim boasts unicode support, but only has it implemented in one of its test files in lisp 2017-03-23T20:30:44Z pjb: theseb: they can be useful. You can make one easily with defpackage. 2017-03-23T20:30:48Z cibs quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-03-23T20:31:13Z lemonpie: picolisp also put me off by '(de something 1)' setting 'something' to '(1) 2017-03-23T20:31:48Z theseb: pjb: well i agree with wasamasa they might be useful when a VERY lightweight embedded lang is needed...what ELSE are they useful for?! 2017-03-23T20:32:34Z wasamasa: does having fun not count? 2017-03-23T20:32:47Z pjb: theseb: (let ((l 0)) (do-external-symbols (s "CL" l) (incf l (length (symbol-name s))))) #| --> 11271 |# 2017-03-23T20:32:52Z wasamasa: if I teach myself to work in a different problem domain, isn't that useful? 2017-03-23T20:32:55Z cibs joined #scheme 2017-03-23T20:32:59Z theseb: wasamasa: the best fun is fun you can think is useful to others....hell even maybe score you some bank 2017-03-23T20:33:16Z lemonpie: sometimes toying with something in a different lisp helps uderstand the underlying concepts and gain a better grasp of how it works in your favourite lisp, too 2017-03-23T20:33:17Z wasamasa: interim forced me to work with 16bit color 2017-03-23T20:33:37Z wasamasa: and inconveniences like manually run GC :P 2017-03-23T20:33:40Z pjb: So you already have 12KB used up only by the symbol names in CL (if you don't "hack-optimize" it). A small lisp can be useful on a 64KB RAM 8-bit system. 2017-03-23T20:35:43Z wasamasa: some other small systems I've seen did compile to other high-level languages 2017-03-23T20:35:56Z wasamasa: haven't tried those yet, clojure and clojurescript are plenty for me :D 2017-03-23T20:36:40Z jcowan: theseb: The front end of the Julia compiler (a language unrelated to Lisp) is written in FemtoLisp 2017-03-23T20:36:49Z jcowan: And TinyScheme is widely used to customize malware. 2017-03-23T20:36:55Z wasamasa: is it really unrelated to lisp though? 2017-03-23T20:37:03Z wasamasa: they keep mentioning that it's homoiconic 2017-03-23T20:38:54Z gwatt: iirc a lisp was used to write the ai for age of empires 2 2017-03-23T20:40:15Z theseb: jcowan: lol malware 2017-03-23T20:40:30Z jcowan: wasamasa: Well, yes, it does have hygienic macros, but I'd hardly say that Julia programmers "don't write programs, their macros write programs for them." It's a much more marginal feature. 2017-03-23T20:41:04Z Menche joined #scheme 2017-03-23T20:41:07Z wasamasa: maybe it's like JS programmers constantly reminding themselves their language is supposedly scheme-like 2017-03-23T20:41:34Z jcowan: The Julia authors are certainly Lispfans, but I don't think Julia programmers in general are. 2017-03-23T20:41:41Z wasamasa: :D 2017-03-23T20:42:02Z qu1j0t3: wasamasa: haha, yeah, never fails to make me groan. 2017-03-23T20:42:13Z jcowan: "There is an issue that is better put forth, rather than stashed under the carpet. The same qualities that have made TinyScheme suitable for many embedded or small-footprint jobs, have earned it an unwanted place in less desirable software. I hope it is clear that TinyScheme itself is domain-agnostic and I, in particular, am not a supporter of malware or adware." 2017-03-23T20:42:38Z wasamasa: qu1j0t3: I guess it's to feel less shitty 2017-03-23T20:42:49Z pjb: wasamasa: not only JS, most other programming languages are lisp-like in general; Ruby, Python, Java, etc. 2017-03-23T20:42:51Z qu1j0t3: still, why make shit up. 2017-03-23T20:43:00Z wasamasa: it's not entirely made up 2017-03-23T20:43:04Z pjb: You can't drink alcohol, try Canada Dry! 2017-03-23T20:43:15Z qu1j0t3: wasamasa: the closest JS gets to Scheme is that its designer(s) allegedly had used Scheme once. 2017-03-23T20:43:28Z gwatt: I've heard that javascript was originalyl supposed to be scheme, but was made more java like for marketing 2017-03-23T20:43:30Z wasamasa: http://javascript.crockford.com/javascript.html 2017-03-23T20:43:36Z qu1j0t3: gwatt: yes, it's on jwz's blog. 2017-03-23T20:43:40Z wasamasa: "JavaScript's C-like syntax, including curly braces and the clunky for statement, makes it appear to be an ordinary procedural language. This is misleading because JavaScript has more in common with functional languages like Lisp or Scheme than with C or Java." 2017-03-23T20:43:53Z qu1j0t3: it has _a couple of things in common_. 2017-03-23T20:44:03Z wasamasa: this eventually evolved into "JS is not entirely shit, it has Scheme influences!" 2017-03-23T20:44:12Z qu1j0t3: yeah,m well 2017-03-23T20:44:54Z wasamasa: and some people spun it into "JS is basically Scheme, deal with it" 2017-03-23T20:45:08Z wasamasa: fortunately I haven't heard that one in person yet 2017-03-23T20:46:31Z qu1j0t3: when you do it'll be from somebody who's never looked at Scheme 2017-03-23T20:46:45Z qu1j0t3: /studied/used* 2017-03-23T20:46:57Z wasamasa: I'd probably groan long enough to drive them away 2017-03-23T20:54:08Z muelleme quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-03-23T20:57:09Z theseb: jcowan, wasamasa: whoa..are you sitting down...GIMP uses TinyScheme! 2017-03-23T20:57:25Z wasamasa: yeah, I'm aware 2017-03-23T20:57:28Z gwatt: I thought gimp used guile 2017-03-23T20:57:28Z jcowan too 2017-03-23T20:57:39Z wasamasa: most people use C++ for plugins 2017-03-23T20:57:45Z jcowan: Of course, you could argue that Gimp is itself malware 2017-03-23T20:57:50Z wasamasa: or was it python? 2017-03-23T20:58:00Z wasamasa: I dunno, I recall GAP installing a .so 2017-03-23T20:58:02Z jcowan: But no, certainly there are legitimate embedded uses of TinyScheme 2017-03-23T20:59:57Z theseb: gwatt: "Kevin Cozens has created a GIMP plug-in, called Tiny-Fu to replace the built-in SIOD interpreter. On October 15th, 2006, the Tiny-Fu plugin was rolled into the GIMP distribution." 2017-03-23T21:00:04Z theseb: http://tinyscheme.sourceforge.net/download.html 2017-03-23T21:05:07Z araujo quit (Read error: Connection timed out) 2017-03-23T21:05:33Z araujo joined #scheme 2017-03-23T21:07:29Z bariscant joined #scheme 2017-03-23T21:07:31Z TheLemonMan quit (Quit: "It's now safe to turn off your computer.") 2017-03-23T21:10:03Z marvin2 joined #scheme 2017-03-23T21:15:35Z igajsin quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-03-23T21:21:51Z bjz quit (Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. 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Would it not be possible to use a promise as created by `delay` instead, and if so, why is that not 2017-03-23T21:44:12Z marrenarre: allowed? 2017-03-23T21:47:07Z cibs quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-03-23T21:48:39Z cibs joined #scheme 2017-03-23T21:51:23Z nckx quit (Quit: ☭ + 🐧 + GNU Guix) 2017-03-23T21:52:36Z jlongster quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2017-03-23T21:53:04Z nckx joined #scheme 2017-03-23T21:59:10Z marvin2 quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2017-03-23T22:00:10Z akkad tries to determine if racket/chicken are the only compilers still being maintained actively. 2017-03-23T22:00:54Z wasamasa: calling a scheme system a compiler sort of misses the point 2017-03-23T22:01:17Z wasamasa: if racket qualifies, guile does for sure, too 2017-03-23T22:01:29Z akkad: compiler being specifically used in reference to generating a binary of native instruction set machine code. 2017-03-23T22:01:39Z akkad: e.g. cc(1) 2017-03-23T22:01:57Z wasamasa: so racket qualifies because it does JIT compilation?? 2017-03-23T22:02:14Z wasamasa: or to give a CL example, SBCL? 2017-03-23T22:02:18Z akkad: not seeking a debate on semantics, clearly 2017-03-23T22:02:38Z akkad: sbcl/lw/allegro/ccl all compile to binaries. even cmucl 2017-03-23T22:02:52Z akkad: and can deliver binaries sans compiler in the runtime 2017-03-23T22:02:55Z wasamasa: yeah, until you run `strip` on these 2017-03-23T22:02:58Z wasamasa: then they fall apart 2017-03-23T22:03:07Z akkad: or unlink(2) 2017-03-23T22:03:29Z akkad: look, if it loads a blob at an address, and merely jumps to it and begins execution, is beyond the question at hand 2017-03-23T22:03:48Z wasamasa: so, JIT compilers qualify 2017-03-23T22:03:54Z akkad: sure 2017-03-23T22:04:14Z akkad: if it was a executable tar file, then that would qualify too. 2017-03-23T22:04:29Z akkad: shar(2) archive perhaps 2017-03-23T22:04:29Z wasamasa: but not if it's a .class file? 2017-03-23T22:04:52Z akkad: well clearly there is a requirement for a runtime, that would make this orthogonal to the stated definition 2017-03-23T22:05:52Z groovy3shoes quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-03-23T22:06:00Z cibs quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-03-23T22:06:30Z akkad: http://community.schemewiki.org/?scheme-faq-standards#implementations makes use of the very word you consider inapplicable to scheme. 2017-03-23T22:06:58Z wasamasa: interpreter+compiler 2017-03-23T22:07:03Z akkad: so the question was in the same spirit as that which is referenced ther. 2017-03-23T22:07:04Z akkad: there. 2017-03-23T22:07:32Z wasamasa: let's add byte-code compilers to the mix 2017-03-23T22:07:36Z akkad: so it's not a question one might consider in appropriate in vernacular. 2017-03-23T22:07:42Z cibs joined #scheme 2017-03-23T22:07:45Z wasamasa: that way nearly every interpreter qualifies as compiler 2017-03-23T22:08:34Z akkad: ok 'e pluribus unum' might help you comprehend this discourse. 2017-03-23T22:08:57Z burtons quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-03-23T22:09:55Z wasamasa: if you want a system integrating itself neatly into the rest of your UNIX system, why not state that upfront? 2017-03-23T22:11:08Z groovy3shoes joined #scheme 2017-03-23T22:11:34Z alphor joined #scheme 2017-03-23T22:13:35Z alezost quit (Quit: I live in GuixSD and Emacs ) 2017-03-23T22:14:07Z akkad: unix? 2017-03-23T22:17:00Z akkad: ahh so you don't know. ok thanks. 2017-03-23T22:18:20Z wasamasa: actually, no, let's call every compiler inferior because it produces code to be interpreted by your CPU 2017-03-23T22:21:34Z marrenarre: My compiler outputs a new CPU. 2017-03-23T22:21:41Z marrenarre prefers machine over machine code. 2017-03-23T22:24:01Z marrenarre left #scheme 2017-03-23T22:25:36Z marvin2 joined #scheme 2017-03-23T22:28:42Z annodomini joined #scheme 2017-03-23T22:29:39Z strykerkkd joined #scheme 2017-03-23T22:42:09Z kuribas quit (Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)) 2017-03-23T22:45:35Z jcowan: There are still tree-walking interpreters 2017-03-23T22:45:39Z jcowan: with no compiler component 2017-03-23T22:46:13Z jcowan: http://trac.sacrideo.us/wg/wiki/CompilerAvailable 2017-03-23T22:46:20Z jcowan: and http://trac.sacrideo.us/wg/wiki/StandaloneExecutables 2017-03-23T22:46:28Z akkad: nice 2017-03-23T22:47:13Z jcowan: I'm adding the non-compilers to the first page 2017-03-23T22:47:31Z akkad: r8rs.org is registered to nothing. hmm 2017-03-23T22:48:35Z gwatt shrugs 2017-03-23T22:49:09Z gwatt: wouldn't schemers.org or scheme.com be better? There's no reason for a new domain for each report. 2017-03-23T22:49:39Z gwatt: (Though the latter you would need to get from dybvig) 2017-03-23T22:57:00Z strykerkkd quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-03-23T22:59:42Z enderby joined #scheme 2017-03-23T23:00:44Z jcowan: r7rs.org just likes to the trac wiki 2017-03-23T23:00:51Z jcowan: that makes maintenance easy 2017-03-23T23:01:11Z jcowan: I'm sure when R8RS comes around (not in my time, I hope) there won't be a big problem getting a domain for it 2017-03-23T23:01:30Z jcowan: Okay, CompilerAvailable has been updated with the tree-walking interpreters I know about 2017-03-23T23:07:36Z stepnem quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-03-23T23:07:59Z jcowan quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-03-23T23:08:20Z wtetzner joined #scheme 2017-03-23T23:09:06Z jcowan joined #scheme 2017-03-23T23:21:45Z jcowan quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-03-23T23:28:42Z lambda-11235 joined #scheme 2017-03-23T23:31:57Z cibs quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-03-23T23:33:50Z cibs joined #scheme 2017-03-23T23:38:37Z cibs quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-03-23T23:40:14Z cibs joined #scheme 2017-03-23T23:49:06Z enderby quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-03-23T23:55:02Z treexform joined #scheme 2017-03-23T23:58:12Z adu joined #scheme 2017-03-24T00:06:23Z sethalves quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-03-24T00:08:44Z cibs quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-03-24T00:10:30Z adu quit (Quit: adu) 2017-03-24T00:10:50Z cibs joined #scheme 2017-03-24T00:15:40Z JoshS joined #scheme 2017-03-24T00:21:55Z Menche quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-03-24T00:22:22Z Menche joined #scheme 2017-03-24T00:23:52Z cemerick joined #scheme 2017-03-24T00:44:59Z add^_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-03-24T00:45:06Z add^_ joined #scheme 2017-03-24T01:03:22Z marvin2 quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2017-03-24T01:04:44Z cromachina joined #scheme 2017-03-24T01:06:07Z cemerick quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-03-24T01:19:12Z cibs quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-03-24T01:19:46Z JoshS quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-03-24T01:19:50Z jshjsh joined #scheme 2017-03-24T01:20:45Z cibs joined #scheme 2017-03-24T01:24:19Z noethics joined #scheme 2017-03-24T01:25:36Z shdeng joined #scheme 2017-03-24T01:26:18Z cemerick joined #scheme 2017-03-24T01:36:04Z sethalves joined #scheme 2017-03-24T01:36:54Z Riastradh quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-03-24T01:45:58Z kvda joined #scheme 2017-03-24T01:49:34Z cibs quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2017-03-24T01:51:00Z cibs joined #scheme 2017-03-24T01:57:59Z MoronicAcid joined #scheme 2017-03-24T02:00:16Z cibs quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-03-24T02:00:29Z enderby joined #scheme 2017-03-24T02:01:58Z cibs joined #scheme 2017-03-24T02:07:04Z cibs quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2017-03-24T02:07:48Z cibs joined #scheme 2017-03-24T02:12:48Z cibs quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-03-24T02:14:09Z cibs joined #scheme 2017-03-24T02:14:53Z MoronicAcid: How would I go about making a typed array containing real numbers? 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...) so that it will return #t for the lambda returned by (define new-from-type (lambda () (lambda ... ...))) ? 2017-03-24T19:17:48Z wasamasa: why don't you use srfi-9? 2017-03-24T19:18:03Z wasamasa: or if you need the extra flexibility, srfi-99 2017-03-24T19:18:35Z ManDay: you mean records? 2017-03-24T19:18:54Z wasamasa: yes 2017-03-24T19:19:43Z ManDay: ok, so i take it then the answer also is that there is no generic way doing it without records (other then fully introspecting whatever is passed into is-my-type?) 2017-03-24T19:19:47Z ManDay: thanks wasamasa 2017-03-24T19:19:56Z wasamasa: srfi-99 offers introspection 2017-03-24T19:21:58Z aeth quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-03-24T19:23:14Z aeth joined #scheme 2017-03-24T19:24:24Z sz0 quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2017-03-24T19:30:43Z ManDay: so with srfi-99 it wouldn't necessarily be called make-X but I can choose my own ways to create x? 2017-03-24T19:31:56Z kuribas left #scheme 2017-03-24T19:32:12Z jcowan_ is now known as jcowan 2017-03-24T19:32:49Z jcowan: ManDay: That too, but that's not the same as introspection, which is the ability to look at a record at run time and obtain its type, its constructor, etc. 2017-03-24T19:41:03Z cemerick joined #scheme 2017-03-24T19:43:14Z bariscant joined #scheme 2017-03-24T19:44:10Z gravicappa joined #scheme 2017-03-24T19:48:13Z cemerick quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-03-24T19:48:39Z cemerick joined #scheme 2017-03-24T19:49:51Z bariscant quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-03-24T19:57:23Z ManDay quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.4) 2017-03-24T19:59:41Z jcowan_ joined #scheme 2017-03-24T20:00:09Z kuribas joined #scheme 2017-03-24T20:01:57Z jcowan quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-03-24T20:02:19Z Menche quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-03-24T20:09:35Z Kkiro quit (Quit: ZNC 1.6.1 - http://znc.in) 2017-03-24T20:14:17Z TheLemonMan joined #scheme 2017-03-24T20:18:45Z kuribas quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-03-24T20:23:56Z muelleme_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-03-24T20:24:43Z lritter quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-03-24T20:35:08Z wtetzner joined #scheme 2017-03-24T20:38:05Z Vzox01 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-03-24T20:40:05Z \h quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-03-24T20:43:08Z arbv quit (Quit: ZNC - http://znc.in) 2017-03-24T20:44:17Z arbv joined #scheme 2017-03-24T20:46:19Z wtetzner quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-03-24T20:46:43Z civodul joined #scheme 2017-03-24T20:47:16Z vydd quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-03-24T20:47:31Z vydd joined #scheme 2017-03-24T20:47:31Z vydd quit (Changing host) 2017-03-24T20:47:31Z vydd joined #scheme 2017-03-24T20:48:01Z vydd quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-03-24T20:48:34Z vydd joined #scheme 2017-03-24T20:48:34Z vydd quit (Changing host) 2017-03-24T20:48:34Z vydd joined #scheme 2017-03-24T20:51:36Z Vzox01 joined #scheme 2017-03-24T20:52:41Z vydd quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-03-24T21:05:34Z daviid quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2017-03-24T21:08:29Z arbv quit (Quit: ZNC - http://znc.in) 2017-03-24T21:09:04Z cemerick quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-03-24T21:09:23Z arbv joined #scheme 2017-03-24T21:32:10Z gravicappa quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-03-24T21:32:40Z JoshS joined #scheme 2017-03-24T21:41:13Z igajsin quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2017-03-24T21:48:32Z muelleme_ joined #scheme 2017-03-24T21:49:10Z vydd joined #scheme 2017-03-24T21:51:12Z JoshS quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-03-24T21:53:48Z vydd quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-03-24T21:58:12Z Menche joined #scheme 2017-03-24T22:12:19Z burtons quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. 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I'm trying to implement it in a function to find freevars in Ocaml, so it isn't exactly scheme, but I was directed here ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ 2017-03-24T23:01:58Z joneshf-laptop quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-03-24T23:01:58Z mabunday: As part of a match case I have "let" implemented correctly as " Let(name, def, body) -> S.union (fv def) (S.diff (fv body) (S.singleton name)) " 2017-03-24T23:02:56Z mabunday: I know that let rec in lambda notation would be like (p(e1) - {f x}) U (p(e2) - {f}) but I think I'm writing the set operations wrong 2017-03-24T23:03:05Z CORDIC: mabunday: You have been diagnosed with Scheme?! 2017-03-24T23:05:27Z muelleme_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-03-24T23:08:50Z safe joined #scheme 2017-03-24T23:11:51Z TheLemonMan quit (Quit: "It's now safe to turn off your computer.") 2017-03-24T23:12:11Z wtetzner joined #scheme 2017-03-24T23:24:48Z jao joined #scheme 2017-03-24T23:30:50Z lambda-11235 joined #scheme 2017-03-24T23:46:48Z daviid quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-03-24T23:51:10Z vydd joined #scheme 2017-03-24T23:55:19Z vydd quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-03-25T00:03:50Z sethalves quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-03-25T00:11:13Z jochen_ joined #scheme 2017-03-25T00:11:52Z civodul quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2017-03-25T00:14:32Z jochen_ quit (Client Quit) 2017-03-25T00:19:09Z Riastradh quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2017-03-25T00:19:16Z bjz quit (Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. 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ZZZzzz…) 2017-03-25T03:44:53Z ArneBab_ joined #scheme 2017-03-25T03:48:58Z ArneBab quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-03-25T03:52:01Z xife joined #scheme 2017-03-25T03:52:27Z xife: hi all 2017-03-25T03:52:36Z xife: heard this might be a good board to discuss SICP 2017-03-25T03:52:55Z aeth: yes 2017-03-25T03:53:05Z xife: I just started started chapter one, any tips on getting through and truly understanding the material? 2017-03-25T03:53:42Z aeth: You can watch the video lectures, too. https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLE18841CABEA24090 2017-03-25T03:53:51Z aeth: They're really old, so they're for the first edition, but they should still be relevant. 2017-03-25T03:55:59Z bjz joined #scheme 2017-03-25T03:57:47Z xife: cool I'll check it out 2017-03-25T03:58:00Z xife: the reputation around the book is pretty intimidating 2017-03-25T03:58:53Z jonaslund quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-03-25T04:00:10Z wtetzner joined #scheme 2017-03-25T04:00:14Z aeth: There are more intimidating books in computer science, e.g. The Art of Computer Programming. 2017-03-25T04:04:57Z wtetzner quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-03-25T04:08:03Z enderby quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-03-25T04:09:34Z xife quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-03-25T04:09:46Z enderby joined #scheme 2017-03-25T04:34:07Z been joined #scheme 2017-03-25T04:38:45Z been quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-03-25T04:42:52Z annodomini quit (Quit: annodomini) 2017-03-25T04:48:16Z \h joined #scheme 2017-03-25T04:53:10Z \h quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2017-03-25T04:55:08Z Kkiro joined #scheme 2017-03-25T04:55:08Z Kkiro quit (Changing host) 2017-03-25T04:55:08Z Kkiro joined #scheme 2017-03-25T05:01:02Z \h joined #scheme 2017-03-25T05:07:32Z wtetzner joined #scheme 2017-03-25T05:12:28Z wtetzner quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-03-25T05:14:08Z jaziz quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-03-25T05:21:10Z enderby quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-03-25T05:25:46Z akkad: what is the typical way to capture output from (system "cmd")? 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2017-03-25T14:45:11Z qu1j0t3: marvin2: This one doesn't seem to. https://www.refheap.com/ 2017-03-25T14:56:40Z jonaslund quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-03-25T14:58:37Z lemonpie: paste.lisp.org ? 2017-03-25T15:00:11Z lemonpie: only complaint about it is the lack of SH for any new lisp dialects since 2004 2017-03-25T15:09:18Z webshinra quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-03-25T15:09:26Z nomicflux quit (Quit: nomicflux) 2017-03-25T15:11:47Z webshinra joined #scheme 2017-03-25T15:20:17Z wasamasa: right 2017-03-25T15:20:47Z wasamasa: they also linked to a broken xml-rpc api for programmatically creating pastes until I sent them an email about it 2017-03-25T15:21:46Z weinholt: sounds like an enterprise system 2017-03-25T15:22:16Z wasamasa: nah, just #lisp 2017-03-25T15:22:32Z wasamasa: I bet you can get patches in 2017-03-25T15:22:59Z weinholt: well, that is actually an improvement over enterprise 2017-03-25T15:23:59Z lemonpie: refheap.com seems ad-free, and supports more languages 2017-03-25T15:24:31Z lemonpie: no arc or picolisp tho, but i imagine we'll survive :P 2017-03-25T15:26:03Z alezost quit (Quit: I live in GuixSD and Emacs ) 2017-03-25T15:30:12Z bariscant quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2017-03-25T15:30:22Z pjb: marvin2: sprunge or lisppaste. 2017-03-25T15:30:36Z pjb: marvin2: http://sprunge.us http://paste.lisp.org 2017-03-25T15:34:18Z jmd joined #scheme 2017-03-25T15:34:54Z nomicflux joined #scheme 2017-03-25T15:36:50Z edgar-rft: lemonpie: anybody really uses arc or picolisp? 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ZZZzzz…) 2017-03-26T06:03:17Z muelleme_ joined #scheme 2017-03-26T06:07:57Z muelleme_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-03-26T06:08:01Z bjz joined #scheme 2017-03-26T06:11:59Z lambda-11235 quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.7) 2017-03-26T06:19:29Z ManDay joined #scheme 2017-03-26T06:20:00Z manualcrank quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.7) 2017-03-26T06:21:58Z ManDay: Hi, is there a typical idiom to write a function which parses part of a text and returns the result? E.g. I have a parser scan through a text and all occurences of numbers are supposed to be treated as numbers. The problem that I'm having is that I can't do this without multiple return values (one being the needed value, here, the number, the other being an information about where the remaining parsing should 2017-03-26T06:22:00Z ManDay: proceed from, i.e. where the number ended). And mutliple return values are kind of awkward. 2017-03-26T06:23:13Z ManDay: well, that is if I don't want to proceed with the parsing recursion from inside of the "number parser" so that I pass those on via arguments rather than return values... 2017-03-26T06:23:30Z ManDay: but then again, while I'm saying this, this is probably the better solution 2017-03-26T06:23:36Z ManDay: lol, excuse the noise 2017-03-26T06:24:35Z igajsin joined #scheme 2017-03-26T06:24:40Z muelleme_ joined #scheme 2017-03-26T06:29:46Z muelleme_ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2017-03-26T06:35:16Z ManDay: Is there any function that will sleep for less than a second? 2017-03-26T06:37:09Z ManDay: ah usleep 2017-03-26T06:37:11Z ManDay: i better leave 2017-03-26T06:45:58Z muelleme_ joined #scheme 2017-03-26T06:51:12Z muelleme_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-03-26T06:51:32Z lritter joined #scheme 2017-03-26T06:56:34Z Autolycus joined #scheme 2017-03-26T07:02:24Z takitus quit (Quit: bye) 2017-03-26T07:07:28Z 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represent them 2017-03-26T07:35:09Z wasamasa: http://wiki.call-cc.org/eggref/4/comparse 2017-03-26T07:35:10Z ManDay: hm, i didn't think of anything "Being" manifestly a parser 2017-03-26T07:36:02Z wasamasa: this one uses that trick for combining parsers 2017-03-26T07:37:25Z wasamasa: its representation of a parser is a function taking a value 2017-03-26T07:38:07Z ManDay: just so i dont misunderstand it: in this case (and I guess generally in what would be considered a typical parser), there are multiple return values needed, is that right? 2017-03-26T07:38:33Z ManDay: (for example, the structure returned by the parser + the new parser) 2017-03-26T07:38:54Z wasamasa: not necessarily, you could have another procedure extracting the parser's state 2017-03-26T07:39:54Z ManDay: extract from what? 2017-03-26T07:40:00Z wasamasa: the returned parser :> 2017-03-26T07:41:00Z ManDay: but what you mean is that the parser returns a new parser, right? 2017-03-26T07:41:03Z wasamasa: yes 2017-03-26T07:41:48Z ManDay: yes, well that's exactly what I'm doing though I'm not returning a new "parser" really, I'm just returning the remains of the source that need to be parsed (it's a really straightforward syntax) 2017-03-26T07:42:13Z ManDay: if I did want to return *that* PLUS some actual result of parsing, I'd have to return multiple things, in one way or another 2017-03-26T07:42:20Z ManDay: that's all I meant 2017-03-26T07:42:29Z wasamasa: it gives you extra flexibility if you ever want to defer something or conditionally use a parser 2017-03-26T07:42:42Z ManDay: yes thats true 2017-03-26T07:44:12Z ManDay: i just found that dealing with these two rather unrelated things is kind of messy because they are dealt with in very differetn ways and I end up with a lot of lambdas just to extract and recombine them from and into "values" 2017-03-26T07:44:58Z ManDay: (or whatever other combined structure i use for returning both, parsing information and parsing result) 2017-03-26T07:45:40Z ManDay: so I ended up not returning any result at all. of course that naturally implies that the parser only has sideeffects after all, but that's ok 2017-03-26T07:46:28Z wasamasa: not necessarily 2017-03-26T07:46:50Z wasamasa: it could just as well defer computing the result until you call a parse procedure on the parser with some input 2017-03-26T07:47:23Z wasamasa: anyway, gotta go 2017-03-26T07:47:30Z ManDay: alright cya 2017-03-26T07:48:12Z bariscant joined #scheme 2017-03-26T07:50:17Z muelleme_ joined #scheme 2017-03-26T07:53:46Z bariscant quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2017-03-26T07:55:12Z muelleme_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-03-26T07:58:15Z safe quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-03-26T08:09:48Z bariscant joined #scheme 2017-03-26T08:11:42Z muelleme_ joined #scheme 2017-03-26T08:17:10Z muelleme_ quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-03-26T08:23:12Z bariscant quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-03-26T08:33:01Z muelleme_ joined 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In lisp, isn't "(x y z)" supposed have an AST like "{ car: x, cdr: { car: y, cdr: { car: z, cdr: nil}}}" ? 2017-03-26T23:25:12Z wgreenberg: all of the examples of s-expression parsers I'm seeing simply turn "(x y z)" into a flat list of expressions 2017-03-26T23:25:43Z kori: depends 2017-03-26T23:26:01Z kori: '(x y z) is (x (y (z '()))) 2017-03-26T23:26:13Z kori: (x y z) is applying the procedure x to args y and z 2017-03-26T23:26:28Z wgreenberg: fair point, I meant '(x y z) 2017-03-26T23:27:05Z qu1j0t3: then yes, your expansion seems correct. 2017-03-26T23:35:36Z lambda-11235 joined #scheme 2017-03-26T23:39:57Z TCZ joined #scheme 2017-03-26T23:52:47Z TCZ quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-03-27T00:09:20Z Menche quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-03-27T00:10:28Z pjb quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-03-27T00:11:21Z jlongster joined #scheme 2017-03-27T00:17:51Z sussman joined #scheme 2017-03-27T00:18:11Z tmtwd joined #scheme 2017-03-27T00:25:38Z jonaslund quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-03-27T00:39:38Z jao joined #scheme 2017-03-27T00:45:34Z aeth: Am I correctly reading 5.3.2 (page 26) of r7rs? It appears that internal use of define is restricted to the beginning of a body and can always be converted into letrec* (and probably should be) 2017-03-27T00:47:39Z cemerick joined #scheme 2017-03-27T00:47:45Z aeth: And letrec* becomes let, which becomes lambda 2017-03-27T00:49:04Z aeth: Which in turn means that there are really only two kinds of variables in r7rs Scheme: define at the top level, and variables in lambdas 2017-03-27T00:52:58Z jlongster quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2017-03-27T00:59:03Z DKordic: aeth: (philosoraptor) What if `define' is in an else branch of an `if'? 2017-03-27T01:01:35Z safe joined #scheme 2017-03-27T01:06:04Z blackwolf quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-03-27T01:07:01Z shdeng joined #scheme 2017-03-27T01:09:08Z sussman left #scheme 2017-03-27T01:15:38Z vydd quit 2017-03-27T01:16:01Z renopt: DKordic: invalid, although a lot of implementations allow it 2017-03-27T01:18:42Z ChrisOei quit (Quit: ChrisOei) 2017-03-27T01:19:13Z X-Scale quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-03-27T01:19:26Z cemerick quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2017-03-27T01:26:46Z Menche_ joined #scheme 2017-03-27T01:27:09Z jlongster joined #scheme 2017-03-27T01:36:13Z wtetzner quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-03-27T01:39:18Z X-Scale joined #scheme 2017-03-27T01:44:06Z Menche_ is now known as Menche 2017-03-27T01:52:40Z ChrisOei joined #scheme 2017-03-27T01:54:45Z ChrisOei quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-03-27T01:55:34Z ChrisOei joined #scheme 2017-03-27T01:59:13Z jlongster quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. 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ZZZzzz…) 2017-03-27T03:17:54Z ChrisOei quit (Quit: ChrisOei) 2017-03-27T03:34:03Z MoronicAcid joined #scheme 2017-03-27T03:48:19Z bariscant joined #scheme 2017-03-27T03:50:24Z aeth: How far do I have to go in implementing hygienic macros myself and how much is already written by other people? 2017-03-27T03:51:54Z aeth: Because after some reading, and some discussion in #lisp and #lispgames, it looks like I can complete cl-scheme soon, depending on how I handle environments. 2017-03-27T03:52:45Z aeth: It looks like I will be able to represent environments as CL lambdas, transformed into continuation-passing-style lambdas, and while doing that CPS compilation, I can also determine the scope of a variable, and if the variable is global, I can make it look up in (gethash variable-symbol *globals*) 2017-03-27T03:53:09Z aeth: And if it's not global, I can just use the lexical scoping from CL. (Portable CL's globals are all dynamically scoped.) 2017-03-27T03:53:52Z aeth: And it looks like every definition in Scheme either creates a lambda or initializes and sets a global. 2017-03-27T04:00:15Z aeth: Oh, I also need to rewrite the reader because it's ugly and old. 2017-03-27T04:00:53Z nomicflux quit (Quit: nomicflux) 2017-03-27T04:01:07Z aeth: So I'm basically finalizing the design except for (1) hygienic macros, (2) optimizations, (3) CLOS interoperability (I think the CPS makes this tricky, but I could be wrong) 2017-03-27T04:02:05Z bariscant quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-03-27T04:06:02Z esclear quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2017-03-27T04:12:35Z daviid quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-03-27T04:15:33Z ulyaoth quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-03-27T04:17:35Z noethics: aeth, i liked this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Or_yKiI3Ha4 2017-03-27T04:18:55Z noethics quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-03-27T04:19:18Z noethics joined #scheme 2017-03-27T04:19:46Z noethics: aeth, i liked this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Or_yKiI3Ha4 2017-03-27T04:20:23Z aeth: ? 2017-03-27T04:20:24Z aeth: ? 2017-03-27T04:20:44Z noethics: ? 2017-03-27T04:22:49Z aeth: you posted twice 2017-03-27T04:22:53Z aeth: I guess connection issue 2017-03-27T04:23:04Z noethics: i disconnected and didnt know if it sent the first one 2017-03-27T04:26:03Z aeth: ah 2017-03-27T04:27:20Z noethics: code that uses first and rest looks objectively nicer than car and cdr 2017-03-27T04:36:38Z aeth: (caddr (list 1 2 3)) 2017-03-27T04:37:05Z aeth: (firrest (list 1 2 3)) ; nope 2017-03-27T04:37:19Z aeth: or would it be firrrest? 2017-03-27T04:42:41Z Autolycus joined #scheme 2017-03-27T04:43:03Z oleo quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-03-27T05:02:16Z edgar-rft: aeth: please rewrite me, I'm ugly and old. 2017-03-27T05:05:33Z aeth: edgar-rft: 2017-03-27T05:05:42Z aeth: woah, IRC didn't like that link 2017-03-27T05:05:51Z aeth: edgar-rft: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gene_therapy 2017-03-27T05:06:35Z aeth: edgar-rft: it looks like... it's actually doable, but not by me 2017-03-27T05:07:53Z edgar-rft: aeth: Sorry, I can't read that. I'm an ugly and old reader, I first need to be rewritten. 2017-03-27T05:08:50Z aeth: edgar-rft: just zoom in... on most web browsers, you can hold ctrl (or whatever the OS X equivalent is) and move the scroll wheel up 2017-03-27T05:10:00Z edgar-rft: aeth: My mouse-wheel is old and ugly, too. I can't move it because there's so much dirt inside. 2017-03-27T05:10:18Z muelleme_ joined #scheme 2017-03-27T05:11:32Z aeth: edgar-rft: upgrade your computer every 3 years and do your part to keep the economy going 2017-03-27T05:13:16Z edgar-rft: aeth: the economists can f*ck themselves, my computer is old and ugly and I will keep it until it falls apart 2017-03-27T05:14:01Z aeth: edgar-rft: that's what the economists who work for the major corporations know, which is why things fall apart sooner and sooner. 2017-03-27T05:15:32Z edgar-rft: aeth: I've protcted my computer with duct-tape against that 2017-03-27T05:17:03Z aeth: Even Schemes fall apart sooner and sooner these days. r5rs was released in 1998, r6rs was released in 2007 (9 years later), and r7rs was released in 2013 (6 years later). At this rate, we can expect r8rs in 2/3 of the time, i.e. 4 years, i.e. this year. 2017-03-27T05:17:11Z aeth: Maybe r8rs will be released before r7rs-large is out! 2017-03-27T05:18:09Z aeth: Unless r7rs-large counts as this year's Scheme, in which case, it's probably on track and we can expect the next one in about 3 years... 2017-03-27T05:19:00Z muelleme_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-03-27T05:20:02Z edgar-rft: aeth: some not very far day rNrS needs bignums in its name 2017-03-27T05:20:27Z aeth: Two more releases after the one in 3 years and we'll be on yearly releases... 2017-03-27T05:21:08Z aeth: Maybe then the acceleration will stop and it'll just be r20XXrs 2017-03-27T05:22:48Z edgar-rft: r-y-m-d-h:m:s-rs 2017-03-27T05:24:06Z aeth: Just use ISO 8601, including the mandatory time zone 2017-03-27T05:24:37Z aeth: r2027-04-01T04:05:10Zrs 2017-03-27T05:24:57Z aeth: So much simpler and much less ambiguous than the current naming scheme for Schemes 2017-03-27T05:26:55Z edgar-rft: and what when sometime in the future Scheme will be used on mars? 2017-03-27T05:27:58Z aeth: (1) UTC is universal 2017-03-27T05:28:11Z aeth: (2) come on, we all know that only JavaScript will be used by the time we're colonizing Mars 2017-03-27T05:28:36Z aeth: Mars will be run on node.js and left-pod 2017-03-27T05:31:25Z marvin2 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-03-27T05:31:58Z jonaslund joined #scheme 2017-03-27T05:32:27Z aeth: "Open the pod bay doors, HAL" "I'm sorry, but left-pod has been removed from npm" 2017-03-27T05:33:07Z edgar-rft: aeth: not really, what I meant was 2017-03-27T05:33:35Z aeth: edgar-rft: It can only run there if Linux has been ported to that platform already 2017-03-27T05:34:40Z edgar-rft: aeth: no problem, see 2017-03-27T05:34:41Z rudybot: http://teensy.info/21DLIlYZnY 2017-03-27T05:38:26Z aeth: noethics: thanks for the link 2017-03-27T05:41:27Z edgar-rft: let's implement crunchy-scheme 2017-03-27T05:42:22Z aeth: edgar-rft: were you here for this one? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imperial_Airship_Scheme 2017-03-27T05:43:28Z edgar-rft: aeth: my all-time favourite is still 2017-03-27T05:43:45Z aeth: edgar-rft: that's what you use to implement crypto-currencies ;-) 2017-03-27T05:43:53Z muelleme_ joined #scheme 2017-03-27T05:49:20Z hive-mind quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-03-27T05:49:45Z edgar-rft: aeth: apropos noethics, let's look at some tits: 2017-03-27T05:51:16Z hive-mind joined #scheme 2017-03-27T05:51:22Z XTL quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2017-03-27T05:57:18Z X-Scale: rudybot: (caddr (list 1 2 3)) 2017-03-27T05:57:20Z rudybot: X-Scale: my confusion stemmed from the fact that i thought that i was supposed to return a symbolic string such as: (caddr (caar x)) 2017-03-27T05:57:29Z XTL joined #scheme 2017-03-27T06:00:18Z tmtwd quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2017-03-27T06:00:41Z muelleme_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-03-27T06:05:17Z pjb joined #scheme 2017-03-27T06:10:28Z pjb quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-03-27T06:12:38Z jonaslund quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-03-27T06:19:57Z safe quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-03-27T06:32:39Z igajsin joined #scheme 2017-03-27T06:42:31Z wasamasa quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-03-27T06:54:24Z sz0 quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2017-03-27T06:57:47Z jonaslund joined #scheme 2017-03-27T06:58:34Z manualcrank quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.7) 2017-03-27T07:00:43Z akkad quit (Excess Flood) 2017-03-27T07:01:40Z Grisha joined #scheme 2017-03-27T07:02:16Z akkad joined #scheme 2017-03-27T07:18:51Z X-Scale quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-03-27T07:29:36Z alezost joined #scheme 2017-03-27T07:31:38Z lemonpie: wait, this isn't #emacs 2017-03-27T07:31:55Z lemonpie side-eyes rudybot 2017-03-27T07:45:26Z bjz joined #scheme 2017-03-27T07:46:55Z civodul joined #scheme 2017-03-27T07:51:31Z Autolycus quit 2017-03-27T07:54:49Z ventonegro joined #scheme 2017-03-27T08:00:49Z ManDay joined #scheme 2017-03-27T08:01:11Z lritter joined #scheme 2017-03-27T08:01:48Z ManDay: Does r6rs have something to right-shift an integer? or something for repeated application of (lambda (n) (floor (/ n 2))), equivalently? 2017-03-27T08:02:14Z ManDay: erm, well, that would be div 2017-03-27T08:08:03Z ManDay: what i mean is whether there is a predefined f such that (f 3 g x) is (g (g (g x))) 2017-03-27T08:08:34Z lemonpie: arithmetic-shift with a negative bits 2017-03-27T08:09:43Z ManDay: yeah well but is that r6rs? 2017-03-27T08:10:17Z lemonpie: try bitwise-arithmetic-shift or fxarithmetic-shift on r6rs 2017-03-27T08:11:22Z lemonpie: there should also be bitwise-arithmetic-shift-right according to r6rs *shrug* 2017-03-27T08:31:21Z bariscant joined #scheme 2017-03-27T08:33:07Z lambda-11235 quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.7) 2017-03-27T08:35:16Z greatscottttt joined #scheme 2017-03-27T08:45:53Z wasamasa joined #scheme 2017-03-27T08:55:48Z bariscant quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-03-27T08:56:17Z bariscant joined #scheme 2017-03-27T08:59:08Z qu1j0t3 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-03-27T09:05:00Z alezost quit (Quit: I live in GuixSD and Emacs ) 2017-03-27T09:32:16Z bjz quit (Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. 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ZZZzzz…) 2017-03-27T13:28:39Z badkins joined #scheme 2017-03-27T13:31:10Z turtleman joined #scheme 2017-03-27T13:31:40Z gusgg joined #scheme 2017-03-27T13:38:38Z TheLemonMan joined #scheme 2017-03-27T13:42:16Z oleo joined #scheme 2017-03-27T13:49:05Z gravicappa joined #scheme 2017-03-27T13:53:18Z cromachina quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-03-27T13:59:20Z bariscant quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-03-27T13:59:29Z joast quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2017-03-27T14:01:02Z bariscant joined #scheme 2017-03-27T14:05:36Z davexunit: good morning guilers 2017-03-27T14:05:39Z davexunit: heh 2017-03-27T14:05:42Z davexunit: wrong channel ;) 2017-03-27T14:05:48Z davexunit: good morning *all schemers*! 2017-03-27T14:06:31Z bariscant quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-03-27T14:07:02Z bariscant joined #scheme 2017-03-27T14:12:04Z jonaslund joined #scheme 2017-03-27T14:14:43Z Menche quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-03-27T14:15:32Z joast joined #scheme 2017-03-27T14:19:00Z TheLemonMan quit (Quit: "It's now safe to turn off your computer.") 2017-03-27T14:39:34Z _0x5eb_ quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-03-27T14:46:44Z civodul joined #scheme 2017-03-27T14:48:34Z daviid joined #scheme 2017-03-27T14:49:07Z jonaslund quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-03-27T14:50:54Z jlongster quit (Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com) 2017-03-27T14:53:03Z _0x5eb_ joined #scheme 2017-03-27T14:55:48Z onehrxn joined #scheme 2017-03-27T14:59:51Z onehrxn quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-03-27T15:03:39Z onehrxn joined #scheme 2017-03-27T15:03:46Z tristero joined #scheme 2017-03-27T15:06:12Z cemerick quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2017-03-27T15:08:07Z rszeno joined #scheme 2017-03-27T15:15:24Z rszeno quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2017-03-27T15:18:04Z bariscant quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-03-27T15:18:31Z burtons joined #scheme 2017-03-27T15:23:55Z bariscant joined #scheme 2017-03-27T15:27:00Z Grisha_ joined #scheme 2017-03-27T15:27:22Z Grisha quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2017-03-27T15:27:22Z Grisha_ is now known as Grisha 2017-03-27T15:37:10Z sethalves quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2017-03-27T15:40:34Z civodul quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 25.1.1)) 2017-03-27T15:45:04Z Menche joined #scheme 2017-03-27T15:54:39Z onehrxn_ joined #scheme 2017-03-27T15:55:05Z sz0 joined #scheme 2017-03-27T15:56:04Z cemerick joined #scheme 2017-03-27T15:56:39Z jmd joined #scheme 2017-03-27T15:57:12Z onehrxn quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2017-03-27T15:59:05Z ventonegro quit (Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 25.1.1) 2017-03-27T16:01:13Z wgreenberg joined #scheme 2017-03-27T16:04:13Z sethalves joined #scheme 2017-03-27T16:05:42Z wgreenberg quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2017-03-27T16:05:48Z Grisha quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-03-27T16:05:59Z marrenarre joined #scheme 2017-03-27T16:06:16Z marrenarre: Why should the first argument to `call-with-values` be a procedure instead of a promise? 2017-03-27T16:11:07Z jonaslund joined #scheme 2017-03-27T16:11:36Z greatscottttt quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.5) 2017-03-27T16:13:51Z davexunit: a promise's value is only computed once, so you wouldn't be able to use call-with-values multiple times with the same promise. 2017-03-27T16:14:17Z vydd joined #scheme 2017-03-27T16:14:17Z davexunit: procedures are the fundamental building block of delayed evaluation so it makes sense to use a procedure. 2017-03-27T16:15:19Z civodul joined #scheme 2017-03-27T16:18:31Z gwatt: You can still have multiple values in a promise 2017-03-27T16:20:27Z davexunit: it just doesn't make much sense to use a promise 2017-03-27T16:20:38Z davexunit: a thunk is the right choice 2017-03-27T16:21:11Z davexunit: a promise just caches the value(s) returned from a thunk 2017-03-27T16:25:07Z jonaslund quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-03-27T16:25:14Z gwatt: And obviously promises can be just functinos 2017-03-27T16:27:43Z dcluna quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-03-27T16:28:03Z jao joined #scheme 2017-03-27T16:30:32Z dcluna joined #scheme 2017-03-27T16:31:48Z Riastradh quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-03-27T16:33:32Z nckx quit (Quit: restarting my ZNC) 2017-03-27T16:36:25Z nckx joined #scheme 2017-03-27T16:39:50Z fantazo joined #scheme 2017-03-27T16:52:35Z alezost joined #scheme 2017-03-27T16:56:39Z jonaslund joined #scheme 2017-03-27T16:57:59Z marrenarre: But you could still access the computed value several times even if it is only computed once. 2017-03-27T17:00:10Z davexunit: that means that a whole class of procedures would be unusable with call-with-values 2017-03-27T17:00:20Z marrenarre: davexunit: Why is that? 2017-03-27T17:00:29Z kammd quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2017-03-27T17:00:42Z davexunit: procedures don't always return the same value 2017-03-27T17:01:02Z marrenarre: So? Create a new promise. 2017-03-27T17:01:04Z wasamasa: procedures can be used to implement promises, promises cannot be used to implement procedures 2017-03-27T17:01:21Z wasamasa: welcome to specialization 2017-03-27T17:01:23Z davexunit: marrenarre: do you see the extra complexity that would be added? 2017-03-27T17:01:43Z davexunit: procedures should now look prety good. 2017-03-27T17:01:54Z gwatt: marrenarre: I'm curious. Why do you think promises are better for use in call-with-values? 2017-03-27T17:01:59Z marrenarre: In my very personal and somewhat uneducated opinion, it makes sense to use `delay` for the purpose of delaying something. 2017-03-27T17:02:05Z wasamasa: inb4 they're criminally underused 2017-03-27T17:02:12Z davexunit: marrenarre: but not lambda? 2017-03-27T17:02:28Z marrenarre: Not as much sense, since `delay` is specifically meant for delaying evaluation. 2017-03-27T17:02:41Z Aune joined #scheme 2017-03-27T17:02:41Z davexunit: are you aware of what a "thunk" is? 2017-03-27T17:02:49Z marrenarre: I don’t think so. 2017-03-27T17:02:51Z davexunit: would you replace everywhere thunks are used with promises? 2017-03-27T17:03:00Z wasamasa: delay is merely syntax for a thunk :P 2017-03-27T17:03:07Z davexunit: yes, exactly. 2017-03-27T17:03:12Z gwatt: a memoizing thunk 2017-03-27T17:03:18Z davexunit: right. 2017-03-27T17:03:43Z marrenarre: So is any procedure of zero arguments a thunk? 2017-03-27T17:03:56Z wasamasa: yes 2017-03-27T17:03:57Z gwatt: yep 2017-03-27T17:04:26Z davexunit: you got it 2017-03-27T17:04:40Z marrenarre: I just think it makes enough sense to use `delay` for delayed evaluation. 2017-03-27T17:04:51Z marrenarre: You could make a procedure that creates these different promises for you. 2017-03-27T17:05:06Z gnomon: That's putting the cart before the horse, though. 2017-03-27T17:05:17Z davexunit: so instead of (call-with-values (lambda () ...) ...) 2017-03-27T17:05:33Z wasamasa: gnomon: hey, hey, you can still design a cart that can be pushed by the horse 2017-03-27T17:05:39Z davexunit: you'd do (define (make-some-promise) (delay ...)) (call-with-values (make-some-promise) ...) 2017-03-27T17:05:52Z marrenarre: Right because you could just supply the procedure to `call-with-values` which is more convenient. 2017-03-27T17:06:04Z gnomon: wasamasa, maybe YOU can, my horse-pushing-cart designs always end up all Rube Goldberg-y. 2017-03-27T17:06:19Z davexunit: marrenarre: your suggestion would make things less convenient. 2017-03-27T17:06:25Z gwatt: marrenarre: fwiw, in implementations where promises are procedures, you could do (call-with-values (delay ...) consumer) 2017-03-27T17:06:31Z marrenarre: davexunit: That’s what I said. 2017-03-27T17:06:35Z davexunit: okay 2017-03-27T17:07:08Z marrenarre: gwatt: See, that’s the part that I like. 2017-03-27T17:07:24Z marrenarre: Though when I think about it maybe there is no reason to use `call-with-values` in such simple situations. 2017-03-27T17:07:38Z davexunit: there's additional problems, too. 2017-03-27T17:07:54Z Riastradh joined #scheme 2017-03-27T17:08:18Z taylan: call-with-values isn't meant to delay the evaluation. the c-w-v argument only has to be a procedure because a procedure operand expression can't evaluate to multiple values. 2017-03-27T17:08:20Z marrenarre: So, `delay` is for when you want memoisation, and the reason that there is no `delay-without-memo` is that you’re meant to just use `(lambda () …)`? 2017-03-27T17:08:43Z taylan: in fact it *doesn't* delay the evaluation; it calls that procedure immediately. 2017-03-27T17:08:58Z davexunit: lambda is *the* way of capturing work to do later 2017-03-27T17:09:18Z marrenarre: taylan: But it does delay it enough that `call-with-values` can do it in some magic way within. Therefore `delay` should be somewhat suitable as well. 2017-03-27T17:09:19Z davexunit: delay/force is syntactic sugar for doing lazy evaluation, which is related by different. 2017-03-27T17:09:26Z taylan: right but in this case it's "abused" to pass multiple values 2017-03-27T17:09:53Z marrenarre: But the purpose is still to delay (a tiny bit). 2017-03-27T17:10:19Z taylan: marrenarre: well that's an overly general definition of "delayed evaluation" for which, as others said, you use lambda 2017-03-27T17:10:52Z taylan: usually when speaking of delayed evaluation, one is talking about a certain programming pattern through which you implement lazy infinite sequences or stuff 2017-03-27T17:11:20Z davexunit: +1 2017-03-27T17:11:29Z taylan: which you can do with 'lambda' too but the 'delay' special form helps by adding memoization 2017-03-27T17:13:10Z X-Scale joined #scheme 2017-03-27T17:13:29Z ManDay joined #scheme 2017-03-27T17:14:02Z marrenarre: Right. So `call-with-values` takes a thing whose evaluation has been delayed (by use of `lambda`). `delay` is just a special way of delaying, and there is no reason to specialise `call-with-values`. 2017-03-27T17:14:18Z taylan: right 2017-03-27T17:15:15Z ManDay: Could anyone have a look at this base64 decoder whether you can spot why it would stack overflow with texts larger than 5000 chars (in original)? 2017-03-27T17:15:19Z ManDay: https://paste.pound-python.org/show/WsKsGwLMscKW2VYty5ag/ 2017-03-27T17:15:53Z wasamasa: perhaps the text overflowing to the left is an omen 2017-03-27T17:15:56Z wasamasa: *right 2017-03-27T17:16:19Z marrenarre: Well, I’m convinced. I also hadn’t thought about how special `delay` is before. 2017-03-27T17:16:36Z wasamasa: ManDay: please don't use tabs for indentation 2017-03-27T17:16:52Z ManDay: wasamasa: oh, sorry 2017-03-27T17:17:02Z ManDay: i have tabwidth=2 in my vim so I dont notice 2017-03-27T17:17:27Z gwatt: should add expandtab to that vimrc 2017-03-27T17:17:46Z gwatt: or at least the scheme.syntax file 2017-03-27T17:18:03Z marrenarre: Thanks everyone for convincing me hehe. 2017-03-27T17:18:11Z ManDay: gwatt: I'll do the latter 2017-03-27T17:18:12Z marrenarre: davexunit: What additional problems were you talking about? 2017-03-27T17:18:17Z muelleme_ joined #scheme 2017-03-27T17:18:18Z ManDay: or I guess the former, too 2017-03-27T17:18:49Z marrenarre: (I have to go so I will read your potential repl(y/ies) later.) 2017-03-27T17:18:53Z wasamasa: hm, didn't realize delay is required to memoize 2017-03-27T17:19:11Z taylan: wasamasa: it's not required. you can always implement it yourself! :P 2017-03-27T17:19:21Z ManDay: Here it is again: https://paste.pound-python.org/show/Ibf9qjVdHlFK4VY0WYZe 2017-03-27T17:19:26Z taylan snickers as wasamasa can't ,shoot him here 2017-03-27T17:20:04Z ManDay: so if the encoded text is about 5000 chars i get a stack overflow in guile 2017-03-27T17:20:15Z wasamasa: if you don't tail-recur, that's expected to happen 2017-03-27T17:20:19Z ManDay: in "parse-sixtet" allegedly. But that shouldn'T happen reasonably 2017-03-27T17:20:21Z ManDay: wasamasa: why? 2017-03-27T17:20:47Z wasamasa: because only tail calls are guaranteed to be optimized into a loop 2017-03-27T17:20:51Z ManDay: is there a way I can fix that without tail recursing but to let scheme definitely know that "rest" (the long text) is not needed any more 2017-03-27T17:21:12Z ManDay: because that'S what it is. it's only if "rest" is kept around that I could understand the stack overflows 2017-03-27T17:21:19Z gwatt: tail recusrion *is* how you say the rest isn't needed 2017-03-27T17:21:23Z ManDay: (in line 34 onwards) 2017-03-27T17:21:44Z taylan: ManDay: you could offload the data that's normally stored on the stack into an explicit data structure holding the data 2017-03-27T17:21:44Z ManDay: gwatt: I mean the variable called "rest" 2017-03-27T17:21:57Z ManDay: taylan: I don't need that data, ever! 2017-03-27T17:22:05Z taylan: ManDay: or you could update to the newly released Guile 2.2 in which stack overflows don't happen so long as you don't run out of memory 2017-03-27T17:22:12Z wasamasa: lol 2017-03-27T17:22:22Z wasamasa: perhaps the in-biwa variable means something... 2017-03-27T17:22:29Z wasamasa: but that's just a hunch 2017-03-27T17:22:33Z ManDay: I have it like (let ([x (f lots-of-data)]) (code-which-only-uses-x)) 2017-03-27T17:22:36Z taylan: hehehe 2017-03-27T17:22:45Z ManDay: wasamasa: no, its in guile 2017-03-27T17:22:50Z wasamasa: zomg 2017-03-27T17:22:55Z wasamasa: you had me there 2017-03-27T17:23:09Z ManDay: well, it's "in-biwa #f" to be fair 2017-03-27T17:23:19Z taylan: wasamasa: see (define in-biwa #f) :P 2017-03-27T17:23:48Z wasamasa: this code is close to obfuscated with that formatting 2017-03-27T17:24:00Z ManDay: wasamasa: how so? what should I do differently? 2017-03-27T17:24:12Z jmd quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-03-27T17:24:14Z wasamasa: for starters, put each let binding on its own line 2017-03-27T17:24:16Z taylan: you should start using (define (foo) ...) instead of (define foo (lambda () ...)) 2017-03-27T17:24:46Z ManDay: taylan: well, ok. but that's really just a few on top level 2017-03-27T17:24:49Z ManDay: will do it though 2017-03-27T17:24:55Z ManDay: give me a sec 2017-03-27T17:25:38Z taylan: I would also advise to use let-values instead of call-with-values 2017-03-27T17:26:25Z taylan: though in this case it looks like that'll make the code less readable. hm. 2017-03-27T17:26:56Z ManDay: no, you are right. let-values would be better 2017-03-27T17:27:14Z taylan: maybe split base64->char into a main procedure that returns both values and a sub-procedure that only returns the one you want 2017-03-27T17:27:32Z ManDay: ok 2017-03-27T17:27:40Z taylan: (I mean like an internal procedure and a wrapper procedure) 2017-03-27T17:27:51Z bariscant quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-03-27T17:28:16Z bariscant joined #scheme 2017-03-27T17:32:42Z Riastradh quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-03-27T17:34:43Z ManDay: TIL: let-values doesn't exist in guile 2017-03-27T17:34:50Z ManDay: *undoing all* 2017-03-27T17:35:49Z lemonpie: it is, it's in srfi-11, you probably need to do whatever magic guile uses to import stuff 2017-03-27T17:36:07Z kuribas quit (Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)) 2017-03-27T17:36:23Z ManDay: ill keep it like that because it has to run in biwa, too 2017-03-27T17:38:13Z ManDay: anyway, what can I do about this recursion problem? Any thing I can do to make sure the stack variable isn't kept on the stack? 2017-03-27T17:38:45Z ManDay: or do you think there is something conceptually wrong and it should be tail recursive - but then how? 2017-03-27T17:38:51Z taylan: ManDay: see that you call parse-next in tail contexts only 2017-03-27T17:39:28Z taylan: in the (= offset 6) situation you use only 'result' so you could have a tail call in that case, for starters... 2017-03-27T17:40:02Z ManDay: well that is damn true 2017-03-27T17:40:03Z taylan: and in the other case, build up the other stuff an an extra variable and append it all at the end of the whole process 2017-03-27T17:40:10Z taylan: in an* 2017-03-27T17:40:51Z ManDay: no wait, result comes from the recursion 2017-03-27T17:42:24Z ManDay: taylan: I don't see how this is possible. semantically, the recursion provides an information (after cropping off whitespace) to the caller which the latter needs to obtain its result 2017-03-27T17:42:27Z taylan: yeah, currently you do (append foo result) at every turn with an intermediate result; instead see that you pass 'foo' in each turn into the next call to parse-next, so you accumulate all the foo, and at the end you append it all so to say 2017-03-27T17:42:30Z ManDay: (i.e. the next sixtet) 2017-03-27T17:43:25Z taylan: like (parse-next blah blah (append foo result-so-far)) where result-so-far comes from the previous call 2017-03-27T17:43:36Z taylan: and (append foo result-so-far) becomes your new result-so-far 2017-03-27T17:44:03Z taylan: not sure if I'm making sense :P check back to see basic examples of how tail recursion is used; it's the same concept 2017-03-27T17:44:12Z ManDay: taylan: yeah, but thats only the result thingy. it still cant be tail recursive (logically) because of what i said 2017-03-27T17:45:04Z blackwolf joined #scheme 2017-03-27T17:46:48Z taylan: (let rec ((i 0)) (if (= i 10) 0 (+ 1 (rec (+ i 1))))) -> (let rec ((i 0) (result 0)) (if (= i 10) result (rec (+ i 1) (+ result 1)))) 2017-03-27T17:47:37Z MoronicAcid quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-03-27T17:49:01Z leppie quit 2017-03-27T17:50:53Z taylan: ManDay: you know what I mean? the same thing is possible here. 2017-03-27T17:51:00Z dsp quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-03-27T17:51:18Z dsp joined #scheme 2017-03-27T18:00:42Z ManDay: taylan: the only possible way (logically) to make it tail recursive is to have the caller crop the whitespace for the callee - but thats ugly, too 2017-03-27T18:01:07Z ManDay: (then the caller doesnt need the info from the callee to calculate the result) 2017-03-27T18:02:15Z g0d355__ joined #scheme 2017-03-27T18:04:25Z sz0 quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2017-03-27T18:12:16Z ertesx joined #scheme 2017-03-27T18:15:28Z ertes quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2017-03-27T18:15:28Z ertesx is now known as ertes 2017-03-27T18:19:16Z gravicappa quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-03-27T18:22:23Z TheLemonMan joined #scheme 2017-03-27T18:22:46Z leppie joined #scheme 2017-03-27T18:28:25Z marrenarre quit (Quit: leaving) 2017-03-27T18:34:19Z gravicappa joined #scheme 2017-03-27T18:34:19Z dsp quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-03-27T18:34:33Z dsp joined #scheme 2017-03-27T18:43:33Z Riastradh joined #scheme 2017-03-27T18:43:52Z dsp quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-03-27T18:44:09Z dsp joined #scheme 2017-03-27T18:56:35Z daviid quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-03-27T19:10:35Z bariscant quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-03-27T19:11:04Z bariscant joined #scheme 2017-03-27T19:14:56Z daviid joined #scheme 2017-03-27T19:27:48Z alezost quit (Quit: I live in GuixSD and Emacs ) 2017-03-27T19:36:27Z marvin2 joined #scheme 2017-03-27T19:38:30Z badkins quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-03-27T19:40:38Z ManDay quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.4) 2017-03-27T19:43:34Z bariscant quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2017-03-27T19:46:48Z bjz joined #scheme 2017-03-27T19:47:16Z qu1j0t3 quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2017-03-27T19:47:47Z ggherdov quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-03-27T19:49:38Z bariscant joined #scheme 2017-03-27T19:50:25Z ggherdov joined #scheme 2017-03-27T20:01:43Z bariscant quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2017-03-27T20:11:04Z bariscant joined #scheme 2017-03-27T20:11:07Z g0d355__ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-03-27T20:12:07Z leppie quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-03-27T20:16:23Z leppie joined #scheme 2017-03-27T20:19:34Z cemerick quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2017-03-27T20:20:36Z cemerick joined #scheme 2017-03-27T20:25:23Z qu1j0t3 joined #scheme 2017-03-27T20:26:03Z manualcrank joined #scheme 2017-03-27T20:30:53Z azahi joined #scheme 2017-03-27T20:40:46Z bariscant quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-03-27T20:46:30Z cemerick quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-03-27T20:46:55Z cemerick joined #scheme 2017-03-27T20:53:14Z bariscant joined #scheme 2017-03-27T20:54:05Z igajsin quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-03-27T21:03:31Z fantazo quit (Quit: Verlassend) 2017-03-27T21:04:50Z Riastradh quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-03-27T21:10:59Z TheLemonMan quit (Quit: "It's now safe to turn off your computer.") 2017-03-27T21:14:31Z bjz quit (Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. 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Python is my favorite language but I want the answer to be Racket/Scheme because it is soo cool. Agree/disagree? 2017-03-28T19:28:28Z gnomon: theseb, the BEST beginner language for beginning programming classes is HQ9+. 2017-03-28T19:28:37Z gnomon: ,next 2017-03-28T19:31:19Z theseb: gnomon: srsly? why not teach brainfsck? 2017-03-28T19:31:22Z theseb: ;) 2017-03-28T19:31:59Z DKordic: Because it is almost C. 2017-03-28T19:37:11Z akkad left #scheme 2017-03-28T19:41:34Z gnomon: DKordic, that is mean and unfair. 2017-03-28T19:41:51Z gnomon: DKordic, C is almost Brainfuck, minus the elegance and user friendliness. 2017-03-28T19:44:18Z PinealGlandOptic joined #scheme 2017-03-28T19:46:02Z bjz joined #scheme 2017-03-28T19:56:17Z bjz quit (Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2017-03-28T19:59:38Z terpri quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2017-03-28T20:07:17Z pjb: theseb: the best language for a beginning programming class is Scheme. 2017-03-28T20:07:23Z pjb: theseb: the proof: sicp. 2017-03-28T20:07:29Z wedesoft joined #scheme 2017-03-28T20:07:35Z pjb: theseb: Structure and Interpretation of Computer Programs http://mitpress.mit.edu/sicp/full-text/book/book-Z-H-4.html http://swiss.csail.mit.edu/classes/6.001/abelson-sussman-lectures/ 2017-03-28T20:16:04Z PinealGlandOptic quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-03-28T20:22:39Z theseb: pjb: yes SICP is awesome but if a give that to a high schooler will they crap their pants? 2017-03-28T20:23:08Z theseb: i've heard of HtDP but it hasn't gotten as much love from me as SICP 2017-03-28T20:30:10Z kori: theseb: scheme 2017-03-28T20:30:15Z kori: proof: the little schemer 2017-03-28T20:30:26Z kori: the little schemer is one of the best books wrt pedagogy I've ever seen 2017-03-28T20:30:48Z cemerick quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2017-03-28T20:31:49Z cemerick joined #scheme 2017-03-28T20:32:32Z theseb: thanks 2017-03-28T20:33:39Z pjb: theseb: well, I would have loved to have it in high school (but then, it was Lycée in France, not in the US education system, so perhaps it's not comparable). 2017-03-28T20:34:09Z pjb: The Little Schemer is a tad too specific and obsessed with recursion… 2017-03-28T20:34:56Z pjb: It depends on the person, what's her objectives and education. 2017-03-28T20:35:12Z theseb: kori, pjb: what do you guys think of "How To Design Programs" book? free even! 2017-03-28T20:35:29Z kori: theseb: I haven't checked it out 2017-03-28T20:35:32Z pjb: It looks good and complete. I've only browsed it. 2017-03-28T20:35:42Z kori: pjb: its a good primer anyway and recursion IS a big deal 2017-03-28T20:35:52Z pjb: I've learned scheme by reading r5rs and The Little Schemer (it was called The Little Lisper then). 2017-03-28T20:35:58Z kori: theseb: apparently it was made because sicp required too much non-programming-specific knowledge 2017-03-28T20:36:05Z kori: don't quote me on that tho 2017-03-28T20:36:18Z pjb: Nope, The Little Schemer is way older than sicp. 2017-03-28T20:36:25Z pjb: THe Little Lisper, I mean. 2017-03-28T20:37:01Z kori: pjb: I'm talking about HTDP 2017-03-28T20:37:05Z kori: not the little schemer 2017-03-28T20:37:07Z pjb: Oh. 2017-03-28T20:37:19Z kori: that might not have been clear sorry 2017-03-28T20:37:26Z pjb: HTDP teaches the whole scheme language. 2017-03-28T20:37:29Z kori: yes 2017-03-28T20:37:42Z pjb: sicp doesn't really teach scheme, but programming in general. 2017-03-28T20:37:48Z theseb: kori: YES! i heard that....SICP assumes you know how to ...well...write programs...and doesn't do as deep of a dive into design.....How To Design Programs takes more of an english class / technical writingish approach.....teaches you to organize your thoughts, etc 2017-03-28T20:38:24Z kori: yeah pjb SICP is more of a compsci book 2017-03-28T20:38:33Z kori: so, I'd probably go 2017-03-28T20:38:44Z kori: the little schemer -> HTDP and then SICP if you wanna go deep 2017-03-28T20:39:01Z kori: if you just wanna teach the basics of programming the little schemer -> HTDP is probably good enough 2017-03-28T20:47:31Z theseb: holy hell 2017-03-28T20:47:33Z theseb: kori: dude 2017-03-28T20:47:44Z theseb: kori: i think the same dude that wrote HtDP wrote Little Schemer 2017-03-28T20:47:45Z theseb: freaky! 2017-03-28T20:48:22Z igajsin quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2017-03-28T20:48:58Z kori: theseb: felleisen was a co-author on the little schemer but it was mostly friedman's work 2017-03-28T20:50:59Z theseb: kori: ah...felleisen obviously must have a heart for good pedagogy if he wrote 2 good teaching books 2017-03-28T20:53:44Z sz0 joined #scheme 2017-03-28T21:04:01Z aeth: Continuations can have side-effects, right? So I could have a continuation that's otherwise normal, but then also prints everything, too, right? 2017-03-28T21:04:50Z aeth: gnomon: There is a huge difference between C and Brainfuck. In Brainfuck, when you move around in memory, you can only do so relatively, like >>>>> or >>> or <<<, unless you're moving to the next 0 like [>] or [<] 2017-03-28T21:05:51Z aeth: So if you want to move a variable amount determined by some counter, you need to (afaik) move everything in front of you to behind you until the counter runs out... Unless this can be and is optimized like how Scheme optimizes tail calls. 2017-03-28T21:06:43Z aeth: But other than that, Brainfuck is to C like Scheme is to Common Lisp. :-p 2017-03-28T21:07:32Z aeth: theseb: SICP contains some simple calculus iirc, so that might scare some people who have not yet had calculus. 2017-03-28T21:08:07Z mejja joined #scheme 2017-03-28T21:11:20Z theseb: aeth: yea true 2017-03-28T21:14:47Z jcowan_ joined #scheme 2017-03-28T21:17:05Z jcowan quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-03-28T21:17:29Z aeth: gnomon: oh, the natural representation of a string in Brainfuck is a C-style string, too, since 0 is the null character (in ASCII) and the easiest (by far) way to iterate over strings is something like [. >] (i.e. print until 0)... so maybe it's even more like C than I thought at first. 2017-03-28T21:17:50Z theseb: aeth: biggest beef is SICP assumes you can design proggies yourself...it doesn't hold your hand with crap like "First state your problem...now break it into little pieces...." 2017-03-28T21:18:00Z theseb: i.e. DESIGN 2017-03-28T21:18:58Z azahi quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2017-03-28T21:22:37Z azahi joined #scheme 2017-03-28T21:22:43Z gnomon: aeth, keep digging! 2017-03-28T21:25:18Z aeth: gnomon: and there's a Brainfuck program to produce C code from Brainfuck code. http://www.hevanet.com/cristofd/brainfuck/dbf2c.b 2017-03-28T21:25:21Z aeth: And look how simple it is 2017-03-28T21:25:42Z aeth: (It's not as optimized as my Brainfuck, though, and I haven't even scratched the surface of Brainfuck optimizations yet.) 2017-03-28T21:26:14Z azahi quit (Client Quit) 2017-03-28T21:26:51Z gnomon: aeth, if you keep digging, you'll eventually find a logic-hoisting Brainfuck-to-Scheme compiler that (recursively) recognizes and hoists BF idioms to actual loops, variables, and constants. 2017-03-28T21:27:16Z gnomon: aeth, and if you dig into _that_, you'll find my name at the bottom of the file. 2017-03-28T21:27:50Z aeth: gnomon: oh, you've written one? 2017-03-28T21:28:00Z aeth: gnomon: I'm doing something very similar, in CL. 2017-03-28T21:28:03Z aeth: As practice for cl-scheme. 2017-03-28T21:28:18Z noethics joined #scheme 2017-03-28T21:28:25Z aeth: People call Scheme minimalist. They are liars. 2017-03-28T21:28:39Z gnomon: aeth, yeah, like a decade ago. 2017-03-28T21:29:00Z aeth: r4rs without the hygienic macros probably was sufficiently minimalist 2017-03-28T21:29:05Z aeth: back when they were optional 2017-03-28T21:29:21Z aeth: so more than a decade ago, closer to 3? 2017-03-28T21:29:53Z gnomon: Definitely not three decades ago. 2017-03-28T21:30:03Z gnomon: oh crap 2017-03-28T21:30:20Z gnomon: Might have been two decades ago. Nooooo, it cannot possibly have been that long. Can it..? 2017-03-28T21:31:27Z aeth: 2017 - 30 = 1987 2017-03-28T21:31:32Z aeth: 2017 - 20 = 1997 2017-03-28T21:32:05Z aeth: r5rs was 1998 2017-03-28T21:32:16Z aeth: So *technically* r4rs was still the Scheme two decades ago. 2017-03-28T21:32:25Z aeth: And you can keep on saying that for one more year 2017-03-28T21:32:34Z cemerick quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2017-03-28T21:33:16Z aeth: r4rs appears to be 1988. https://people.csail.mit.edu/jaffer/r4rs_2.html#SEC2 2017-03-28T21:33:24Z aeth: "The present report reflects further revisions agreed upon in a meeting that preceded the 1988 ACM Conference on Lisp and Functional Programming and in subsequent electronic mail." 2017-03-28T21:34:00Z aeth: and r6rs was 2007 2017-03-28T21:34:28Z aeth: So if r7rs-large comes out this year or next, it'll be approximately one Scheme a decade, if you only count r7rs-large rather than both large and small, or count small instead of large 2017-03-28T21:34:51Z aeth: (Starting with r4rs) 2017-03-28T21:35:37Z wedesoft quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-03-28T21:35:42Z aeth: The macro system of r4rs is in the appendix: https://people.csail.mit.edu/jaffer/r4rs_12.html#SEC77 2017-03-28T21:39:39Z mejja: rudybot: software engineering is hard 2017-03-28T21:39:43Z rudybot: mejja: and people claim software engineering is hard. 2017-03-28T21:43:36Z gravicappa quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-03-28T21:44:46Z qu1j0t3: rudybot: They sure do 2017-03-28T21:44:48Z rudybot: qu1j0t3: pretty sure what they do should count as practicing even if they don't do any fabbing themselves 2017-03-28T21:44:59Z qu1j0t3: rudybot: right on 2017-03-28T21:45:01Z rudybot: qu1j0t3: well... the way the game is engineered right now, you pass on your turn and the AI does his, as a whole, via the key event handler function. and there seems to only be 1 draw per event 2017-03-28T21:45:35Z qu1j0t3: rudybot: Wait a minute ... you're just recognisng specific words and responding to them ... JUST LIKE HUMANS DO 2017-03-28T21:46:17Z rudybot: qu1j0t3: instance wasn't responding, Force Quit wasn't getting anywhere, kill -9 finally accomplished it after a minute or two 2017-03-28T21:47:00Z qu1j0t3: rudybot: I need you on my team 2017-03-28T21:47:05Z rudybot: qu1j0t3: so at my work we've got a team environment that we test on before we send it to our staging environment. I have a user account on that server that I can get to in dired with /ssh:te (setup through ~/.ssh/config). Once I get there, I need to do "sudo su - production" to use the production user. Unfortunately this seems to mean I'm constrained to use vim on that server 2017-03-28T21:52:11Z jcowan_: Anyway, the library of R4RS/IEEE was small but not minimalist. A minimalist list library would be just car, cdr, cons, pair?, and null?. 2017-03-28T21:53:20Z aeth: a minimalist list library would just be lambda 2017-03-28T21:53:29Z aeth: at least minimalist in the way that Brainfuck is minimalist 2017-03-28T21:53:29Z jcowan_: and of course set-car! and set-cdr! But in R4RS there was also list?, list, length, reverse, list-tail, list-ref, memq/v/ber, assq/v/oc. 2017-03-28T21:53:42Z jcowan_ nods. 2017-03-28T21:53:52Z jcowan_ is now known as jcowan 2017-03-28T21:53:58Z justinethier quit (Quit: Page closed) 2017-03-28T21:54:03Z aeth: Actually, that would be an interesting language (probably already exists). Implement something like Scheme only in lambdas where possible. I guess lambda and define or something? 2017-03-28T21:54:11Z jcowan: Although in such a design, you can't have type predicates: both pairs and numbers are lambda, for example. 2017-03-28T21:54:43Z aeth: oh, numbers, they're going to be an issue 2017-03-28T21:54:56Z aeth: I guess to be fully lambda it'd have to be done the lambda calculus way 2017-03-28T21:55:02Z jcowan nods. 2017-03-28T21:55:07Z jcowan: http://trac.sacrideo.us/wg/wiki/BottomScheme is a different kind of minimalism 2017-03-28T21:55:43Z aeth: Couldn't pair? work, still? 2017-03-28T21:55:57Z aeth: in a similar way that set-car! and set-cdr! can work in a lambda-defined cons 2017-03-28T21:57:29Z jcowan: Only if you are careful to make sure that all procedures handle calls like (+ 'pair?), (+ 'procedure?) etc. 2017-03-28T21:57:57Z aeth: hmm, yes, there is a dispatch thing 2017-03-28T21:58:02Z aeth: that's how they solve it 2017-03-28T21:58:10Z aeth: not as elegant as when it's just car/cdr though. :-( 2017-03-28T21:58:13Z aeth: set ruins everything 2017-03-28T21:58:36Z aeth: This chapter: https://sarabander.github.io/sicp/html/2_002e1.xhtml 2017-03-28T21:59:06Z kuribas quit (Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)) 2017-03-28T21:59:16Z aeth: jcowan: Can continuations have side effects? I'm guessing that they can, e.g. a continuation that prints everything but otherwise behaves normally. 2017-03-28T22:00:01Z jcowan: Certainly. (begin (write 'a) (write 'b)) calls (write 'a) with a continuation that has the side effect of printing b. 2017-03-28T22:00:54Z aeth: I am trying to think how to "inline" (I'm not sure if that is the right word) 2017-03-28T22:01:23Z aeth: e.g. most of the time that there is this in Scheme it's not going to be an issue at all to just represent it directly as CL: (+ 1 x (* 2 y) (/ z)) 2017-03-28T22:01:25Z blackwolf quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 24.5.1)) 2017-03-28T22:01:42Z aeth: Normally (or perhaps always?) a CPS transformation for something like that is unnecessary 2017-03-28T22:01:45Z jcowan: what Steele called "triviality analysis" 2017-03-28T22:01:56Z aeth: ah 2017-03-28T22:05:21Z aeth: I only want continuations where they're necessary, so that the host language can have more information as to what's going on. So (define (foo x y z) (+ 1 x (* 2 y) (/ z)) would just be (define (foo continuation x y z) (continuation (+ 1 x (* 2 y) (/ z)) instead of using the continuation forms of the arithmetic 2017-03-28T22:07:00Z aeth: oops I left a ) 2017-03-28T22:07:10Z aeth: which is ultimately (not quite, gensym would be needed for continuation?) (defun foo (continuation x y z) (funcall continuation (+ 1 x (* 2 y) (/ z))) 2017-03-28T22:07:56Z aeth: ) 2017-03-28T22:08:01Z aeth: bah, I am spoiled by paredit 2017-03-28T22:08:24Z aeth: and then e.g. (foo #'identity 1 2 3) => 19/3 2017-03-28T22:09:37Z aeth: And that foo has (almost) no performance overhead! 2017-03-28T22:11:25Z burtons quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2017-03-28T22:11:40Z aeth: It looks like in SBCL the main difference in the disassembly is a %coerce-callable-to-fun, which I could possibly get rid of with (declare (function continuation)) (and I can) 2017-03-28T22:12:24Z aeth: And now the only noticable difference appears to be the very end, where a native CL foobar RET (returns?) and the transpiled Scheme JMP (jumps?) 2017-03-28T22:14:22Z aeth: tl;dr: If I can get rid of the continuations for most trivial things except at the top level of the function, there's almost no overhead, and the main difference is the very end. Only a few instructions overhead. (And #'identity is quite small, doing *exactly* what is missing from the bottom of #'foo in the CPS version) 2017-03-28T22:16:49Z aeth: It looks like in SBCL it adds the overhead of 4 instructions, when #'identity is the continuation. 2017-03-28T22:20:27Z aeth: (In the absolute best case, where everything is trivial.) 2017-03-28T22:23:58Z vydd quit 2017-03-28T22:24:17Z aeth: Hmm... It looks like using :false for #f and comparing with eql also has almost no overhead. 2017-03-28T22:25:04Z aeth: Wow... this could potentially become one of the fastest Schemes (when run on SBCL) if the compilation to CL step is done properly. 2017-03-28T22:25:22Z TheLemonMan quit (Quit: "It's now safe to turn off your computer.") 2017-03-28T22:26:00Z jcowan: Makes sense 2017-03-28T22:26:14Z jcowan: You should probably leverage Rapid Scheme for the Scheme front end 2017-03-28T22:26:26Z aeth: Rapid Scheme? 2017-03-28T22:27:34Z aeth: Oh, and there could be something called Quickscheme that wraps Quicklisp libraries, except it should be called Rich Quickscheme so that people can tell users to "Get Rich Quickscheme"... 2017-03-28T22:27:40Z jcowan: It handles libraries, macros, and all that stuff for R7RS 2017-03-28T22:27:50Z jcowan laughs 2017-03-28T22:28:20Z theseb quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-03-28T22:28:55Z aeth: jcowan: How can an implementation of libraries be portable if procedures/etc. defined in libraries might be defined in the implementation language rather than in Scheme? 2017-03-28T22:30:18Z civodul quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 25.1.1)) 2017-03-28T22:30:28Z aeth: I was thinking of using something like this for the standard libraries: http://paste.lisp.org/+7CFZ 2017-03-28T22:31:14Z aeth: (Interesting, this shows what r7rs adds over r5rs by what is not a link... except apparently by that standard r7rs added / so I guess paste.lisp.org has an incomplete definiton of Scheme) 2017-03-28T22:37:08Z dbmikus quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-03-28T22:42:39Z pjb quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-03-28T22:44:17Z aeth: jcowan: How is the r7rs global environment usually done? Immutable and actually secretly a lambda like with everything else in Scheme? 2017-03-28T22:48:30Z aeth: It looks like in Common Lisp, unlike historic Lisps, I can simply represent the Scheme lexical scopes as lambdas in the host CL, except at the top level. I could either put the top level in a lambda and then new bindings can't be added or I could e.g. create a hash-table called *globals* and while doing the CPS compilation, I can also check to see if a variable is defined in any local scope, and if it's not, call *globals* to see if it is 2017-03-28T22:48:59Z aeth: a value in there. 2017-03-28T22:50:03Z aeth: Well, I mean, not during the compilation, it would just switch from a straightforward (+ x 1) into (+ (gethash 'x *globals*) 1) 2017-03-28T22:51:29Z JoshS quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-03-28T22:51:39Z jcowan: Actually the top level can be done in the same way if you put all symbols into the scheme: package 2017-03-28T22:53:06Z aeth: The problem is that globals are either constant or dynamically scoped in portable CL, and the latter both kills performance and works unexpectedly (and slowly) if there's a global foo and you use foo as a variable name. 2017-03-28T22:53:14Z aeth: That's why CL has the *foo* earmuffs convention 2017-03-28T22:53:32Z aeth: One global x could instantly wreck all math code that works with variables called x 2017-03-28T22:54:25Z sz0 quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2017-03-28T22:55:22Z aeth: Also, I do have to compress namespaces somehow from a Lisp-2 into a Lisp-1. Probably as easy as e.g. having a function %s-car that is then stored as a variable car, like (let ((car #'%s-car)) ...) and then (foo) in scheme would always be (funcall foo) 2017-03-28T22:55:32Z aeth: Instant Lisp-1. 2017-03-28T22:56:33Z aeth: Defined this way, recursion should work fine and referring to each other should work fine because the functions themselves are defined in some package before being put into variables for the Scheme "runtime" (very small runtime) 2017-03-28T22:57:15Z aeth: That is, if immutable, which is permitted but not necessarily common. 2017-03-28T23:01:42Z aeth: I might have to track environment information for hygienic macros, anyway, so going with "x is either x or (gethash 'x *globals*)" might be the most practical route. 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I have the arithmetic part of it pretty well set, but I'm not sure what to do about bit operations. 2017-03-29T19:26:10Z jcowan: Some options: 1) Just the 7 primitives from SRFI 32 2) The random collection that R6RS provides 3) All the SRFI 142 (integer bit ops) procedures 2017-03-29T19:26:26Z jcowan: What I've got now is more than #2 but less than #3 2017-03-29T19:27:07Z jcowan: the seven prims are not, and, ior, xor, arithmetic-shift, bit-count, integer-length (plus logical-shift, which only makes sense for fixnums) 2017-03-29T19:27:50Z Riastradh: How about making all numbers IEEE 754 floating-point double-precision numbers? 2017-03-29T19:28:28Z Riastradh: Here's another option: MIT Scheme's bit-twiddling library, integer-bits.scm. 2017-03-29T19:28:29Z jcowan: My hands are tied. The committee voted for arbitrary-size integers. 2017-03-29T19:30:21Z jcowan: MIT Scheme's library is closely related to SRFI 60 and R6RS. SRFI 142 is SRFI 32 with additions from SRFI 60 and a few vector-ish operations (bitwise-fold, bitwise-for-each, bitwise-unfold, etc.) 2017-03-29T19:30:35Z Riastradh: Urh? 2017-03-29T19:30:36Z Riastradh: bitwise-fold? 2017-03-29T19:31:10Z jcowan: processes the bits (as booleans) from 0 to integer-length 2017-03-29T19:31:26Z Riastradh: Sure you're looking at the right Scheme? 2017-03-29T19:31:46Z jcowan: https://github.com/barak/mit-scheme/blob/master/src/runtime/integer-bits.scm 2017-03-29T19:32:27Z Riastradh: That's the right file (though I was going to give as the canonical link; barak's mirror is not canonical), but I don't see any folding in there. 2017-03-29T19:33:07Z jcowan: I meant that -fold, -unfold, -for-each are in SRFI 143 (library not yet published) 2017-03-29T19:33:36Z Riastradh: Oh, I misread, sorry. 2017-03-29T19:33:45Z takitus quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-03-29T19:35:10Z cemerick quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2017-03-29T19:35:17Z lemonpie: what was the consensus on the bytevector library, because if that was voted to be the smaller subset without all the srfi-1 extensions then it'd make sense for the bitwise operations to be similar to that 2017-03-29T19:36:19Z jcowan: There is no numeric vector library yet, but the general vector library, SRFI 43/133, is somewhat cut down from SRFI 1. 2017-03-29T19:36:33Z jcowan: But there is nothing like and, ior, xor in it. 2017-03-29T19:38:03Z lemonpie: well, you're going to have to have and, ior, xor whatever else, i thoguht the question was about the iteration stuff 2017-03-29T19:39:24Z lemonpie: iirc the pro-srfi-43 argument was that 'if you have list->bytevector and bytevector->list then you don't need all the bytevector specific iterators, search and mutators 2017-03-29T19:39:46Z jcowan: Provided your vector is not large. 2017-03-29T19:40:19Z gwatt: jcowan: srfi 32? https://srfi.schemers.org/srfi-32/ did you mean 33? 2017-03-29T19:40:21Z lemonpie: well a good argument there might be to provide a (byte)vector->stream stream->vector pair :) 2017-03-29T19:40:28Z jcowan: But there is little point in using vectors in the first place unless you have lots of data. 2017-03-29T19:40:48Z jcowan: lemonpie: There will be when I get to numeric-only vectors. But this is about integers-as-bits. 2017-03-29T19:41:24Z jcowan: The question is, what bit ops do you need in fixnums *beyond* and, ior, xor, not, ... 2017-03-29T19:41:33Z lemonpie: i know, but the decision whether or not to include bitwise-fold, bitwise-map comes down to consistancy 2017-03-29T19:41:43Z jcowan: For example, fxif is a function that examines bit n and returns different values depending on its truth value. 2017-03-29T19:41:57Z Riastradh: bitwise-fold and bitwise-map sounds pretty silly to me. 2017-03-29T19:42:08Z Riastradh: How about carryless Galois field multiplication? 2017-03-29T19:42:18Z jcowan: fx-bit-field retrieves bits m through n 2017-03-29T19:42:42Z jcowan: How, indeed. 2017-03-29T19:42:57Z Riastradh: Rather, carryless polynomial multiplication and binary polynomial reduction, for the purpose of Galois field multiplication? 2017-03-29T19:43:25Z jcowan shrugs 2017-03-29T19:43:56Z Riastradh: Also, please include popcnt and clz. 2017-03-29T19:45:24Z Riastradh: (in whatever equivalent naming or formulation you want -- bit-count, integer-length, &c.) 2017-03-29T19:46:05Z jcowan: Okay, popcnt = bit-count (one of the above prims) and clz is more or less equivalent to ffs. 2017-03-29T19:46:34Z jcowan: The issue here is not what bit ops to have. It's what *fixnum* bit ops to have. You can always pass a fixnum to the generic bit ops in SRFI 142. 2017-03-29T19:49:10Z bjz joined #scheme 2017-03-29T19:49:51Z azahi quit (Quit: Bye) 2017-03-29T19:57:31Z daviid quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-03-29T19:59:20Z bjz quit (Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. 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But everyone expects that to be Scheme-specific, so you could just use the same as CL and copy them through unchanged. 2017-03-29T20:53:37Z aeth: If I were to just rip declarations entirely from CL as-is 2017-03-29T20:53:59Z jcowan: except for declare special, which you don't want 2017-03-29T20:55:04Z aeth: I already have a `(declare (function ,continuation)) for the continuation when CPS is used, which is why there's almost no overhead 2017-03-29T20:55:29Z aeth: There can be more than one declare, so I can literally just copy further declarations through, unchanged 2017-03-29T20:58:13Z jcowan_ joined #scheme 2017-03-29T21:00:22Z jcowan quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2017-03-29T21:08:10Z strykerkkd joined #scheme 2017-03-29T21:08:15Z stryker_kkd joined #scheme 2017-03-29T21:08:26Z strykerkkd quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-03-29T21:08:40Z takitus quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2017-03-29T21:10:35Z badkins quit 2017-03-29T21:15:57Z muelleme_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-03-29T21:17:35Z jonaslund quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-03-29T21:18:39Z bjz quit (Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. 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used to indent lisp code 2017-03-30T17:26:47Z jmd joined #scheme 2017-03-30T17:30:10Z dTal: one of these days I'll figure out a sensible structure editing solution and let pretty-print worry about it 2017-03-30T17:31:25Z dTal: but in the meantime I see no reason to use spaces for indent, at all, ever 2017-03-30T17:32:16Z alezost quit (Quit: I live in GuixSD and Emacs ) 2017-03-30T17:43:01Z gwatt: dTal: you might like this vim patch for scheme: https://github.com/akeep/vim-patches 2017-03-30T17:43:22Z terpri quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-03-30T17:45:27Z gwatt: It needs an update for vim 8, but it's pretty simple. 2017-03-30T17:54:22Z cojy_ joined #scheme 2017-03-30T17:55:57Z ec_ joined #scheme 2017-03-30T17:59:35Z ec quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2017-03-30T17:59:35Z askatasuna quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2017-03-30T17:59:35Z astronavt[m] quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2017-03-30T17:59:35Z cojy quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2017-03-30T17:59:36Z CustosL1men quit 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What I mean is...I choose to never use that fact and in fact I made a minimal lisp where there are no conses but everything is built from lists only. I even think Clojure does this iirc. So is that really that heretical and bad? 2017-03-30T21:02:17Z Riastradh joined #scheme 2017-03-30T21:03:46Z edw: I've been trying to figure out how to write functions that extend Alex Shinn's SHOW package, and while I can get something to work, it looks wrong. I would appreciate anyone who could chime in on the manifold problems probably embodied in this: 2017-03-30T21:08:35Z kori quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-03-30T21:11:41Z edw: theseb: There's plenty of precedent (meaning at least one extant lisp) for writing "Lisp but using X instead of pairs as the basic data structure." I've forgotten the implementation I've been thinking of. If you have some free time, you may find this discussion somewhat interesting: http://lambda-the-ultimate.org/node/1071 2017-03-30T21:11:53Z vydd quit 2017-03-30T21:12:46Z theseb: edw: thank you very much 2017-03-30T21:14:02Z edw: You're welcome. 2017-03-30T21:14:35Z edw: Here's another rabbit hole to fall down: http://archive.vector.org.uk/art10500180 2017-03-30T21:17:46Z kori joined #scheme 2017-03-30T21:20:11Z kori quit (Changing host) 2017-03-30T21:20:11Z kori joined #scheme 2017-03-30T21:21:25Z bariscant joined #scheme 2017-03-30T21:24:54Z reggggieee quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-03-30T21:25:00Z cemerick quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2017-03-30T21:26:45Z manualcrank joined #scheme 2017-03-30T21:38:08Z askatasuna quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-03-30T21:38:19Z bjz joined #scheme 2017-03-30T21:39:33Z Riastradh quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-03-30T21:41:39Z raduom quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-03-30T21:42:56Z Riastradh joined #scheme 2017-03-30T21:48:57Z askatasuna joined #scheme 2017-03-30T21:52:04Z kuribas quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-03-30T21:57:29Z jcowan: "The big ball of mud is like a warlock, able to steal opponents’ powers while still staying the same." 2017-03-30T21:58:19Z DKordic: theseb: Where can I see more about Your Lisp? 2017-03-30T21:58:57Z shpx quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-03-30T22:00:02Z bjz quit (Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2017-03-30T22:00:54Z civodul quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 25.1.1)) 2017-03-30T22:06:09Z Riastradh quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-03-30T22:06:28Z muelleme_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-03-30T22:06:49Z bariscant quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-03-30T22:06:53Z theseb left #scheme 2017-03-30T22:13:28Z muelleme_ joined #scheme 2017-03-30T22:18:08Z muelleme_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-03-30T22:22:55Z Riastradh joined #scheme 2017-03-30T22:32:09Z skeuomorf quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-03-30T22:43:18Z sethalves quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2017-03-30T22:49:07Z azathoth99 joined #scheme 2017-03-30T22:50:08Z azathoth99: how does scheme compare to java n python 2017-03-30T22:50:14Z azathoth99: and ruby 2017-03-30T22:50:23Z azathoth99: is it just way more beautiful 2017-03-30T22:50:30Z azathoth99: ? 2017-03-30T22:54:55Z edw: azathoth99, a very opinionated opinion: With most languages, you're learning 90% superfluous detail and 10% eternal truths about the nature of solving problems using computational processes. In Scheme, the percentages are roughly 10-90. If you watch the SICP H-P lectures, you can learn 95% of Scheme in a day. And then for the rest of your life the ramifications of what you've learned sink in. 2017-03-30T22:55:29Z shpx joined #scheme 2017-03-30T22:58:35Z aeth: azathoth99: Scheme is a simple language that focuses on lists, tail recursion, and continuations. So it's not that much like Java, Python, and Ruby. It's more like Tcl (string-oriented), Lua (table-oriented), Forth (stack-oriented), etc. A simple language focusing on a concept. 2017-03-30T22:58:36Z azathoth99: woa 2017-03-30T22:59:13Z aeth: In particular, you can construct quite a few things in Scheme just with tail recursion. 2017-03-30T23:00:26Z shpx quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-03-30T23:00:33Z aeth: This is good for learning but not necessarily good for practical scripting, so each Scheme implementation can extend Scheme heavily to add things like hash tables and OOP classes that you might expect in a language. 2017-03-30T23:01:23Z azathoth99: I want to skip oo programming. 2017-03-30T23:01:30Z azathoth99: I am interested in website making 2017-03-30T23:01:41Z azathoth99: I know only bit of bash tcl pthon lisp 2017-03-30T23:01:52Z azathoth99: I want to really learn to program. 2017-03-30T23:02:02Z edw: azathoth99: Adding to what aeth wrote, you will learn in Scheme that you can do anything these other languages can do with lists (or, more precisely, pairs) and the distinction between code and data will melt away. Building everything from the ground up with pairs can be impractical, as aeth again mentions, and therefore nearly every Scheme natively implements these other data types for performance reasons. 2017-03-30T23:02:11Z aeth: Scheme's cousin, Common Lisp, is a much larger (but uglier) language with a heavier focus on OOP, so it would be more familiar from a Java or Python perspective. Although many Schemes have their own object system, often inspired from CL's CLOS. 2017-03-30T23:02:23Z lambda-11235 joined #scheme 2017-03-30T23:02:39Z azathoth99: can scheme apps scale to multiple machines? 2017-03-30T23:03:13Z aeth: If you wanted a practical Scheme, you should pick an implementation and learn it. The two most popular implementations are Guile and Chicken. Racket is very closely related to Scheme (and used to be called PLT Scheme) but is not quite a Scheme anymore. Racket is still close enough, though, to basically count. 2017-03-30T23:03:16Z edw: azathoth99: Yes, but, again, you need to find the right Scheme. In this case, Termite, a variant of Gambit, was developed. 2017-03-30T23:03:16Z wasamasa: not this shit again 2017-03-30T23:03:19Z aeth: So imo learn one of the three. 2017-03-30T23:03:57Z azathoth99: is termite still maintained? 2017-03-30T23:04:41Z edw: azathoth99: I think it got rolled into Gambit. JFGI. 2017-03-30T23:06:08Z aeth: wasamasa: I was not advocating CL. I am just pointing out that (core) Scheme is not OOP, whereas CL is, and any object system in Scheme is going to be an implementation-specific extension to the language, possibly inspired by CLOS. It would be irresponsible to not bring up OOP when asked to compare Scheme to Java. 2017-03-30T23:06:37Z wasamasa: aeth: not at you, I'm expecting a "is scheme good for webscale e-commerce apps?" any time 2017-03-30T23:06:38Z aeth: That being said, if I had to pick one of the two, Scheme is much closer to Python because it has higher order functions (although iirc Java added them very late in its life) and is not statically typed. 2017-03-30T23:06:42Z aeth: wasamasa: oh 2017-03-30T23:06:50Z aeth: wasamasa: People have complained about CLers in here before 2017-03-30T23:07:31Z wasamasa: see https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/comp.lang.scheme/DwcIP9cWR7o for a particularly low effort example 2017-03-30T23:08:03Z wasamasa: most recent one: https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/comp.lang.scheme/oMf5-SwVLQE 2017-03-30T23:08:20Z aeth: azathoth99: One point of confusion to people familiar with Python is that Python "lists" are a misnomer, closer to vectors in Scheme or Lisp. "Lists" here refer to proper linked lists. 2017-03-30T23:08:54Z edw: azathoth99: Let me make things easy for you: If you want to build a web app with front and back end, I highly recommend you DO NOT do it in Scheme unless you enjoy constant intellectual and practical challenges. If you're new to programming and want to build a web site, there are quite a few batteries-included options for you to choose from. Google is your friend. 2017-03-30T23:08:54Z safe joined #scheme 2017-03-30T23:09:22Z aeth: (In case I was unclear, when I was referring to "one of the two", I meant Python or Java.) 2017-03-30T23:10:27Z wasamasa: same person asked in here why nobody was doing databases in scheme 2017-03-30T23:10:30Z edw: Django (using Python) is a righteous back-end choice. Vue.js on the front-end seems very newb-friendly. 2017-03-30T23:11:08Z azathoth99: why is there this division of front and back end? 2017-03-30T23:11:24Z wasamasa: because java applets died 2017-03-30T23:11:51Z aeth: wasamasa: A traditional SQL database would be tricky to do in any GC langauge afaik, but you could probably do it with some care in a language that extends vectors to be richer than in core Scheme. A NoSQL could be done in just about any language. 2017-03-30T23:12:13Z edw: azathoth99: Because you typically want to store data somewhere that is not the user's fairly-epheral browser data store. 2017-03-30T23:12:28Z wasamasa: aeth: I don't see why I'd want to reinvent a crappy version of redis, sqlite or postgres 2017-03-30T23:12:35Z wasamasa: aeth: there's a lot more fun things to do in scheme 2017-03-30T23:13:27Z aeth: wasamasa: Yes, definitely. If you have traditional database needs, definitely just use Postgres indirectly (and it would help if you had to move to another language, which is always possible if you're using a smaller Scheme). I could see a use for niche databases, though. 2017-03-30T23:13:59Z edw: wasamasa: I just wrote a purely-functional constraint propagation system that support interval arithmetic. It's the most fun I've had programming in years. Fewer than 250 lines of pretty vanilla Scheme. 2017-03-30T23:14:10Z aeth: You're going to kind of fight the language, though, for certain kinds of DBs. Use the right tool for the job. 2017-03-30T23:14:29Z wasamasa: true, I'd like to see something else than node4j for graph databases 2017-03-30T23:14:34Z aeth: I suppose a DB could mix C and Scheme, with a Scheme like Guile. 2017-03-30T23:14:48Z wasamasa: or what was it called 2017-03-30T23:14:53Z wasamasa: neo4j 2017-03-30T23:15:18Z wasamasa: same with this whole search engine java stuff 2017-03-30T23:16:23Z azathoth99: http://harmful.cat-v.org/software/java lolz 2017-03-30T23:16:41Z edw: Until Etcd came along, the world totally needed something to put a bullet in ZooKeeper's head. Most irritating piece of software ever. 2017-03-30T23:17:27Z edw: Typical of Java bloatware. Ever try to get a Nexus server running? Shoot me now. 2017-03-30T23:18:27Z aeth: Imo, Java isn't as bad as it sounds. e.g. It has nice collections, afaik. Unfortunately, it was made at the peak of design pattern overuse, OOP misuse, and XML, thus irreversably damaging the language. 2017-03-30T23:18:45Z azathoth99: https://github.com/coreos/etcd ? wtf 2017-03-30T23:19:23Z azathoth99: why dont people just stick to server side web apps? 2017-03-30T23:19:30Z wasamasa: edw: sounds like you overdid a SICP assignment 2017-03-30T23:19:30Z aeth: Oh, and now Java is owned by Oracle, possibly the one tech company that can seriously be considered more evil than Microsoft at its peak, so... avoid, avoid, avoid. 2017-03-30T23:19:53Z azathoth99: oracle is cancer 2017-03-30T23:19:54Z edw: aeth: I'm thinking about not so much the language (ugh IMO) or the VM (pretty aeesome) buy the configuration ethos that so much Java software embodies. 2017-03-30T23:20:03Z pjb joined #scheme 2017-03-30T23:20:26Z wasamasa: what, you don't like dropping a xml file somewhere into the project root to change logging? 2017-03-30T23:20:32Z wasamasa: tsk tsk 2017-03-30T23:20:37Z aeth: edw: I love the concept of the JVM or the CLR, and I like the idea of having a rich standard library for almost every need, written by experts. I hate the execution of both Java and C#. 2017-03-30T23:20:47Z lemonpie: i'd rather deal with xml files than fucking annotations, tho 2017-03-30T23:21:04Z aeth: edw: But described without details, Java is great. That's probably why it became popular... when people not using the language picked the language. 2017-03-30T23:21:26Z wasamasa: having it in xml isn't nearly as much of a problem as the classnames inside it and its location being crucial, essentially making its effects unpredictable 2017-03-30T23:21:44Z aeth: lemonpie: If only there was a way to structure arbitrary data in a way that predates XML and JSON. 2017-03-30T23:21:59Z shpx joined #scheme 2017-03-30T23:22:02Z aeth: By decades. 2017-03-30T23:22:16Z cromachina joined #scheme 2017-03-30T23:22:29Z edw: wasamasa: I started as me needing a CP system and copying it out of SICP and folding in the interval arith code, but then I got very irritated by the way it was untestable due to its rampant mutation. I also didn't like the difficuly of constructing constraint networks, so I built a functional one from the ground up. I was highly inspired by the SICP algebraic simplification exercise, but I haven't read through that in maybe five years. 2017-03-30T23:23:19Z edw: (The simplifier is one of the reasons I cherish my 1ed copy of SICP, which sits next to my 2ed on my bookshelf.) 2017-03-30T23:23:23Z aeth: Actually, the language that lost out to CSS for styling was Scheme-like. http://trac.sacrideo.us/wg/wiki/DSSSLVsScheme 2017-03-30T23:24:12Z aeth: It used "foo:" keys instead of ":foo" keys, though. Arguably more intuitive, I guess? I like the latter, though, because you can tell it's a keyword from the beginning. 2017-03-30T23:24:38Z sethalves joined #scheme 2017-03-30T23:24:49Z aeth: (Scheme keywords are afaik split between the two, where available at all.) 2017-03-30T23:24:54Z edw: Parens can't catch a break. 2017-03-30T23:32:31Z azathoth99: how do schemers view prolog? 2017-03-30T23:33:27Z aeth: Languages in the Lisp family are often used to implement Prolog, and at least one (probably more) even embeds a Prolog. 2017-03-30T23:34:12Z lemonpie: see poplog 2017-03-30T23:34:38Z lemonpie: (although that was lisp, prolog, ML and pop-11 in one environment) 2017-03-30T23:34:46Z Riastradh quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2017-03-30T23:34:52Z aeth: To write another language, you basically just need to write a read procedure for it. The rest follows from that. 2017-03-30T23:34:55Z burtons quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2017-03-30T23:35:30Z aeth: It's much easier than e.g. compiling to JavaScript because there is no final step of outputting source strings that you'd have in that case. 2017-03-30T23:36:31Z aeth: Far more languages would be compiled to a Lisp language than to JavaScript if not for the fact that people can only use JavaScript in the web browser. S-expression languages are much better for such tasks. 2017-03-30T23:37:34Z aeth: Languages like Prolog are excellent fits for this sort of thing, too. 2017-03-30T23:37:53Z aeth: That is, Prolog -> Scheme makes perfect sense. 2017-03-30T23:41:23Z aeth: For any language (not just Prolog): First make sure the types are a match between the languages. If they're not, you might have to make workarounds (that could lead to sacrifices to performance) or make a slightly non-conforming implementation. 2017-03-30T23:42:04Z aeth: Then write procedures in Scheme that are a close match semantically to the desired language and write a small runtime if necessary. 2017-03-30T23:42:31Z aeth: Then parse the language with a reader, and produce procedures/macros that are either built into Scheme or written in the previous step. 2017-03-30T23:44:37Z aeth: Racket is focused around building languages, and probably has much more sophisticated ways of doing this. It probably also already has a Prolog. Racklog. https://docs.racket-lang.org/racklog/index.html?q=prolog 2017-03-30T23:48:16Z jonaslund joined #scheme 2017-03-31T00:07:43Z adu joined #scheme 2017-03-31T00:08:24Z adu quit (Client Quit) 2017-03-31T00:17:42Z adu joined #scheme 2017-03-31T00:23:34Z adu quit (Quit: adu) 2017-03-31T00:24:27Z shpx quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-03-31T00:45:30Z dmiles: aeth: Did you know (i might have mentioned it in front of you) that ECL (embeddable CL) contains a WAM impl? 2017-03-31T00:46:19Z aeth: WASM? 2017-03-31T00:46:28Z dmiles: WAM :P 2017-03-31T00:46:40Z aeth: well, then, I didn't hear that. 2017-03-31T00:46:44Z dmiles: well lessee... i should see if WASM is a WAM thing 2017-03-31T00:47:13Z aeth: WASM = Web Assembly, I wasn't sure if that's what you were talking about because of the context of JavaScript 2017-03-31T00:47:17Z aeth: I haven't heard of WAM 2017-03-31T00:47:18Z dmiles: :) 2017-03-31T00:47:37Z dmiles: oh WAM is the backend that makes it possible to run Prolog code effienciently 2017-03-31T00:47:47Z aeth: ah 2017-03-31T00:48:17Z dmiles: damn i can never find that paper 2017-03-31T00:48:39Z dmiles: found it https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/d87e/a800c08616e21e915f5b018150aa10b94231.pdf 2017-03-31T00:49:51Z dmiles: anyhow, one can run lisp and prolog without performance loss that otehr impls would have 2017-03-31T00:50:29Z dmiles: after jackdaniels restores delimited continuations :P 2017-03-31T00:51:18Z dmiles: i wonder if any schemes do this as well 2017-03-31T00:51:54Z dmiles checking racklog 2017-03-31T00:52:12Z aeth: it's not a true Prolog, I'm not sure how much it differs 2017-03-31T00:52:28Z aeth: Syntactically, it uses s-expressions 2017-03-31T00:52:36Z aeth: Semantically, I'd have to read the page carefully 2017-03-31T00:54:04Z dmiles: prolog pretty easy in scheme or lisp .. its hard to do it effeiciantly 2017-03-31T00:54:30Z dmiles: (under a 500 lines) 2017-03-31T00:54:43Z mejja joined #scheme 2017-03-31T00:55:41Z dmiles: Guilelog isnt doing WAM either (ther eis no point in WAM) unless one merges the backend VMs 2017-03-31T00:56:15Z dmiles: i'll always meant to check on poplog 2017-03-31T00:57:03Z dmiles: back when i was using it i did know nearly as much 2017-03-31T00:57:20Z dmiles: didnt* 2017-03-31T00:57:32Z aeth: It's an interesting problem, combining languages. The future is probably interacting between a dozen different languages. (And there are lots of different approaches for this.) 2017-03-31T00:59:06Z dmiles: the reason i tend to make prolog close to central is iit built to handle sort of worse case payadymn 2017-03-31T00:59:27Z dmiles: worse case vm abuse 2017-03-31T01:00:18Z dmiles: so while prolgo is calling something sane like lisp or javascript or scheme .. it can relax 2017-03-31T01:01:38Z dmiles: but of course trying to see if there isnt several datastructures languages need on the back end that Prolog give away for free 2017-03-31T01:01:50Z grublet joined #scheme 2017-03-31T01:01:51Z dmiles: that what ECL takes advantage of i thinkl 2017-03-31T01:01:59Z mejja: rudybot: racket is the new poplog 2017-03-31T01:02:08Z rudybot: mejja: its probably the worst of the default prog-modes unless there's something worse that's obscure like poplog-mode or something 2017-03-31T01:03:56Z dmiles: for example WAM/Prolog uses 3 stacks becasue they grow and shrink in very unrelated ways 2017-03-31T01:05:02Z dmiles: if someone impls prolog trying to merge 2 or more of these .. all the goodness falls away 2017-03-31T01:07:54Z aeth: I wonder if that's possible to emulate at low or no cost. 2017-03-31T01:09:49Z dmiles: the Env is borrowed often for one stack 2017-03-31T01:10:24Z dmiles: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warren_Abstract_Machine#Memory_areas <- those are the 3 i refer to 2017-03-31T01:16:53Z aeth: dmiles: How involved are you with ECL? 2017-03-31T01:18:49Z dmiles: not sure yet, might figure out how to build a full prolog for it maybe when i have time 2017-03-31T01:19:15Z dmiles: when i first start the Prlog/Lisp Hybrid project i dint know ECL as WAM.. Yet i used it to hybrid.. lol 2017-03-31T01:19:43Z dmiles: ( i dint know ECL had a WAM.. Yet i used it to hybrid the two) 2017-03-31T01:20:00Z dmiles: because it used a *real* no-fake LOCATIVE 2017-03-31T01:21:31Z dmiles: i havent worked on that project though in 11 years: https://github.com/swi-to-yap/contrib-eclisp/blob/master/eclisp.c 2017-03-31T01:21:59Z aeth: ah 2017-03-31T01:22:41Z dmiles: but every day i am cursing not having anyhting other than prolog 2017-03-31T01:23:25Z dmiles: and looking at having to port code in lisp and scheme 2017-03-31T01:23:33Z dmiles: (to prolog) 2017-03-31T01:24:03Z dmiles: so in the next few moths i am going to get fed up and work on that 2017-03-31T01:25:25Z burtons joined #scheme 2017-03-31T01:35:03Z jonaslund quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-03-31T01:49:43Z jcowan_ joined #scheme 2017-03-31T01:51:35Z shpx joined #scheme 2017-03-31T01:51:35Z shpx quit (Changing host) 2017-03-31T01:51:35Z shpx joined #scheme 2017-03-31T01:51:54Z jcowan quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2017-03-31T02:00:44Z shdeng joined #scheme 2017-03-31T02:06:34Z shpx quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-03-31T02:09:05Z burtons quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-03-31T02:14:00Z shpx joined #scheme 2017-03-31T02:15:31Z ArneBab_ joined #scheme 2017-03-31T02:19:40Z ArneBab quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2017-03-31T02:20:12Z mejja quit (Quit: \ No newline at end of file) 2017-03-31T02:32:59Z jao quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-03-31T02:38:30Z lexicall joined #scheme 2017-03-31T02:48:28Z pjb quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-03-31T02:50:17Z jao joined #scheme 2017-03-31T02:54:14Z JoshS joined #scheme 2017-03-31T02:56:04Z lexicall quit (Quit: Ah, my macbook is gonna sleep!) 2017-03-31T03:02:44Z shpx quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2017-03-31T03:33:17Z JoshS quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-03-31T03:51:08Z sz0 joined #scheme 2017-03-31T04:00:15Z nomicflux joined #scheme 2017-03-31T04:01:58Z takitus quit (Quit: bye) 2017-03-31T04:04:53Z jao quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-03-31T04:24:18Z azathoth99: shoot I cant scroll up to see all that was said about lisp v prolog 2017-03-31T04:24:39Z aeth: http://ccl.clozure.com/irc-logs/scheme/ 2017-03-31T04:24:52Z aeth: http://ccl.clozure.com/irc-logs/scheme/scheme-2017-03.txt 2017-03-31T04:24:55Z azathoth99: isn't clozure on jvm? 2017-03-31T04:24:59Z azathoth99: I hate oracle 2017-03-31T04:25:03Z azathoth99: :( 2017-03-31T04:25:07Z azathoth99: oh the logs 2017-03-31T04:25:08Z azathoth99: hm 2017-03-31T04:25:13Z aeth: no, that site is Clozure, i.e. CCL, i.e. a CL 2017-03-31T04:25:23Z aeth: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clozure_CL 2017-03-31T04:25:44Z aeth: It probably predates Clojure. 2017-03-31T04:26:06Z aeth: It took the name in 1998. 2017-03-31T04:26:08Z azathoth99: woaaa 2017-03-31T04:26:33Z azathoth99: mind blown I totally conflated the 2 for years now 2017-03-31T04:26:44Z azathoth99: <---again reminded how dumb I am 2017-03-31T04:26:44Z aeth: Of the three CLs that are currently popular, I'd say it's one of them. It's commonly referred to as CCL just to avoid confusion with Clojure, though 2017-03-31T04:27:02Z aeth: And by commonly, I mean almost always. 2017-03-31T04:27:52Z azathoth99: what are the other 2 popular common lisps? SBCL and clisp? 2017-03-31T04:28:06Z aeth: No, SBCL and ECL. 2017-03-31T04:28:06Z azathoth99: I find both are available on freebsd 2017-03-31T04:28:20Z aeth: I think the popularity of clisp has dived off a cliff in the past few years, or at least that is my impression from IRC. 2017-03-31T04:28:31Z azathoth99: oh ECL I never tried that one....does it have a lot of dev activity? 2017-03-31T04:30:04Z aeth: yes, but it's designed to be embedded into C programs 2017-03-31T04:30:16Z azathoth99: oh so its kinda sepcialized 2017-03-31T04:30:27Z aeth: but a popular specialization 2017-03-31T04:30:47Z dmiles: sometimes its nutz that SBCL isnt embeddable 2017-03-31T04:31:01Z dmiles: (or that ECL is the only one) 2017-03-31T04:31:18Z aeth: clasp exists now, too. 2017-03-31T04:31:31Z dmiles looks 2017-03-31T04:31:34Z aeth: https://github.com/drmeister/clasp 2017-03-31T04:31:56Z aeth: if you're really curious: https://github.com/drmeister/clasp/search?utf8=%E2%9C%93&q=ecl&type= 2017-03-31T04:31:59Z aeth: yes, it uses a lot of ECL code 2017-03-31T04:32:31Z dmiles: hrrmm neat 2017-03-31T04:33:13Z aeth: It's incomplete atm though 2017-03-31T04:35:07Z dmiles: i wonder if its more complete than https://github.com/gnooth/xcl 2017-03-31T04:35:17Z aeth: Afaik, there are three major Lisps right now (SBCL, CCL, ECL) and three major Schemes (Racket, Guile, Chicken). At least based on my corner of the Internet. No implementation whose source is out there really "dies", especially if it has users. 2017-03-31T04:35:17Z nomicflux quit (Quit: nomicflux) 2017-03-31T04:35:34Z aeth: dmiles: you should ask drmeister about clasp in #lisp 2017-03-31T04:35:56Z dmiles: shall do 2017-03-31T04:36:11Z azathoth99: now wait what is clasp for? 2017-03-31T04:36:14Z azathoth99: embedded? 2017-03-31T04:36:21Z dmiles: yes 2017-03-31T04:36:23Z aeth: ECL is about C, Clasp is about C++ and LLVM 2017-03-31T04:36:27Z azathoth99: and ECL can do 'big' things not just small? 2017-03-31T04:36:30Z aeth: Still embedded, just a different niche 2017-03-31T04:36:49Z aeth: Embeddable language implementations can do anything, but they tend to be slower. 2017-03-31T04:36:52Z azathoth99: isnt forth the main gun for embedded, or c? 2017-03-31T04:37:01Z aeth: No, no, embedded into C applications 2017-03-31T04:37:11Z azathoth99: hmm 2017-03-31T04:37:14Z aeth: afaik 2017-03-31T04:37:21Z azathoth99: isn't that what tcl was doing? 2017-03-31T04:37:30Z azathoth99: and guile is advertizesed as doing 2017-03-31T04:37:34Z aeth: Some langauges make it their goal, e.g. Guile. 2017-03-31T04:38:21Z aeth: It looks like Chicken uses C as an intermediate language. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CHICKEN_(Scheme_implementation)#Design 2017-03-31T04:38:38Z dmiles: i been extending CYC's Lisp (Thouh some people call it Scheme.. not sure if that is accurate) to be a full CL.. https://github.com/TeamSPoon/CYC_JRTL_with_CommonLisp/tree/larkc/platform 2017-03-31T04:38:45Z dmiles: (That on the JVM) 2017-03-31T04:39:03Z azathoth99: picolisp!! that was the one I was trying to rememeber 2017-03-31T04:39:14Z aeth: There's a Scheme on the JVM. https://www.gnu.org/software/kawa/ 2017-03-31T04:39:24Z aeth: It's supposed to be good. 2017-03-31T04:39:29Z aeth: I think it also has Android support 2017-03-31T04:39:39Z aeth: interesting, it's r7rs, too 2017-03-31T04:40:15Z dmiles: oh wow.. what is the best Scheme of JVM then right now.. Kawa? 2017-03-31T04:40:33Z dmiles: I want to give programmers of CYC the ablity to use a "real" scheme 2017-03-31T04:40:50Z aeth: Afaik, Kawa is the recommended Scheme for the JVM, but I probably last asked like 4 years ago. 2017-03-31T04:40:58Z aeth: So idk what the IRC consensus is right now. 2017-03-31T04:41:01Z aeth: Try asking in #scheme 2017-03-31T04:41:23Z dmiles: :) 2017-03-31T04:42:07Z aeth: Ah, it does have Android support. https://www.gnu.org/software/kawa/Building-for-Android.html 2017-03-31T04:42:27Z dmiles: Whats nutz as well is CYC is faster than Lisp on ACL 2017-03-31T04:44:52Z dmiles: the Java version is a translation from .lisp files 2017-03-31T04:45:20Z aeth: I need to set up my massive pile of Common Lisps and Schemes again... where I basically just run basic things in them and see how they differ. 2017-03-31T04:45:32Z aeth: Obviously Schemes diverge more among themselves, but some CLs can be quite different, especially clisp 2017-03-31T04:45:51Z dmiles: well .subl files to .c and .subl files to .java and .subl to lisp on ACL.. the java is the fastest version 2017-03-31T04:46:53Z aeth: I think atm the only Scheme I have installed is Guile because that's the only one Fedora had when I installed the tons of Schemes a while back, the rest were compiled and installed and I have clean installed since then 2017-03-31T04:47:00Z aeth: hmm, it looks like Fedora has chicken now 2017-03-31T04:47:20Z azathoth99: java is a demon of the outworld 2017-03-31T04:47:24Z azathoth99: summon it not 2017-03-31T04:47:53Z aeth: Oh, I *do* have Kawa installed too. Nevermind. 2017-03-31T04:49:26Z aeth: One problem with Kawa is that it's not in Geiser, which would hurt if you have to program it in Emacs. 2017-03-31T04:49:42Z aeth: Geiser currently supports chez, chibi, chicken, guile, mit, and racket. https://github.com/jaor/geiser/tree/master/scheme 2017-03-31T04:50:09Z dmiles: Which is the most embeedble scheme for C ? 2017-03-31T04:50:14Z dmiles: From* 2017-03-31T04:50:46Z aeth: I think quite a few Schemes target C. Guile, Chicken, Chibi... 2017-03-31T04:50:49Z aeth: Probably more 2017-03-31T04:51:02Z aeth: Scheme tends to see itself more of a scripting language than CL does. 2017-03-31T04:51:03Z dmiles: (i know that shoulded the wrong direction.. to "instance a scheme") 2017-03-31T04:51:10Z aeth: Everyone still is trying to write an OS in CL. 2017-03-31T04:51:32Z aeth: s/itself more/itself as more/ 2017-03-31T04:52:16Z aeth: And wow, GNU has at least three Schemes. Guile, Kawa, and MIT/GNU Scheme. And two CLs, GCL and CLISP. And Emacs Lisp. 2017-03-31T04:53:06Z azathoth99: every day I use freebsd and iceWM mostly with firefox and a bit of chrome xfe libreoffice 2017-03-31T04:53:09Z azathoth99: and I say 2017-03-31T04:53:23Z azathoth99: why are things still not lightning fast on my 16g ram zfs 6 core amd 2017-03-31T04:53:25Z azathoth99: hmm 2017-03-31T04:53:30Z dmiles: Sorry if this sounds like hate speech... why does everyone think the next OS or Prolgo system needs written in Haskell? 2017-03-31T04:53:34Z azathoth99: software seems bloated 2017-03-31T04:53:45Z aeth: dmiles: That is so 3 years ago, now everyone wants to write it in Rust. 2017-03-31T04:53:48Z aeth: Follow the hype cycle! 2017-03-31T04:54:17Z dmiles signs in relief 2017-03-31T04:54:17Z azathoth99: haskell seems liek smalltalk, some amazng abstractions but I can only imagine the fear when something breaks 2017-03-31T04:54:43Z azathoth99: I was trying smalltalk on debian, and updated my pharo image 2017-03-31T04:54:47Z azathoth99: all kinda weirdness ensuded 2017-03-31T04:55:01Z azathoth99: watche dthis huge video course the mooc 2017-03-31T04:55:07Z azathoth99: first class ok 2017-03-31T04:55:09Z dmiles sighs in relief.. Rust is least is simple to learn for people 2017-03-31T04:55:17Z azathoth99: second one started using all these undefined words 2017-03-31T04:55:23Z azathoth99: why cant people define the words they use? 2017-03-31T04:56:32Z dmiles: once they define them they lose the ability to explain them to others 2017-03-31T04:56:55Z aeth: azathoth99: Wanting better and better definitions is how you wind up with mathematical analysis. 2017-03-31T04:57:24Z aeth: azathoth99: Do you really want everything to be defined with the precision of the epsilon delta definition of the limit? 2017-03-31T05:01:19Z aeth: lim x→c f(x) = L ⇔ (∀ε > 0)(∃δ > 0)(∀x ∈ D)(0 < |x - c| < δ ⇒ |f(x) - L| < ε) 2017-03-31T05:01:44Z aeth: That's where definitions gets people :-p 2017-03-31T05:02:05Z aeth: s/where definitions/where using definitions/ 2017-03-31T05:03:28Z aeth: oh, also D ⊆ ℝ and L ∈ ℝ 2017-03-31T05:04:05Z azathoth99: woops my brain stopped 2017-03-31T05:04:07Z azathoth99: hmm 2017-03-31T05:04:23Z azathoth99: I dunno this whole programming thing seemed easier before I tried it 2017-03-31T05:04:27Z aeth: More seriously, that's why I like Lisp-style languages. They don't try to reproduce the above, poorly, in one-dimensional ASCII (math is actually two dimensional, the x→c should be under lim) 2017-03-31T05:04:35Z aeth: Haskell is one of those languages that does try. 2017-03-31T05:05:01Z azathoth99: www.happstack.com looks powerful 2017-03-31T05:05:04Z aeth: Some early ones didn't even limit themselves to ASCII 2017-03-31T05:05:04Z azathoth99: I wonder tho 2017-03-31T05:05:10Z azathoth99: can it scale to more than 1 box? 2017-03-31T05:05:42Z aeth: here is some APL, from Wikipedia: x[⍋x←6?40] 2017-03-31T05:05:47Z aeth: and some more: (~R∊R∘.×R)/R←1↓ιR 2017-03-31T05:05:53Z azathoth99: oh shit APL 2017-03-31T05:05:54Z aeth: Those are two programs 2017-03-31T05:06:28Z azathoth99: I heard the challenge wasn't how few lines, but how short the 1 line, in APL you could make a program lol 2017-03-31T05:06:42Z aeth: Well, I mean, in Scheme you could make any program a one-liner. 2017-03-31T05:06:56Z azathoth99: are there any free APLs? 2017-03-31T05:07:15Z aeth: (define (foo x) (* 2 (+ 1 x))) ; any indentation or newlines is only for politeness 2017-03-31T05:07:21Z azathoth99: heh 2017-03-31T05:07:22Z azathoth99: kek 2017-03-31T05:07:49Z aeth: Scheme can be just as dense as some of these languages, except it doesn't use symbols to make the dense point. 2017-03-31T05:07:56Z aeth: It uses long words, and parenthesized expressions. 2017-03-31T05:07:59Z aeth: So it's easier to parse. 2017-03-31T05:08:12Z azathoth99: but its a mistake to make web apps in scheme... 2017-03-31T05:08:34Z aeth: It would be a mistake to make web apps in portable r7rs Scheme 2017-03-31T05:08:45Z azathoth99: what about chicken 2017-03-31T05:09:34Z lambda-11235 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-03-31T05:09:44Z azathoth99: it has this egg called awful for web programming.... 2017-03-31T05:10:41Z aeth: Guile, Racket, and Chicken should all have enough libraries for your web needs (they all have their own systems). If for some reason Scheme doesn't work out, then you can also try Common Lisp, probably SBCL or CCL (CL libraries, unlike Schemes, are mostly portable between implementations, so they have one library system, Quicklisp) 2017-03-31T05:10:58Z aeth: The other major Lisp is Clojure, which is surely popular, but it's in the JVM, and I cannot speak from experience about it. 2017-03-31T05:11:35Z aeth: Emacs Lisp also has some web server stuff, but don't do that. 2017-03-31T05:12:13Z aeth: Emacs Lisp is basically fossilized 1980s historical Lisp before Common Lisp. Both Scheme and Common Lisp are more advanced, and usually faster. 2017-03-31T05:12:50Z lambda-11235 joined #scheme 2017-03-31T05:14:02Z JoshS joined #scheme 2017-03-31T05:14:20Z azathoth99: what do you use for web stuuff? 2017-03-31T05:15:30Z oleo quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-03-31T05:15:34Z daviid: kawa is a lot better then clojure imo, clojure just got more popular for some marketing reasons, which we should revert :) 2017-03-31T05:15:52Z aeth: #racket #guile and #chicken can probably help you with their specific web packages (and if you do decide to try CL as well, there is #lisp and #lispweb too) 2017-03-31T05:16:03Z aeth: I don't currently do web programming. 2017-03-31T05:16:08Z aeth: I would recommend to try as broadly as you can. 2017-03-31T05:16:17Z daviid: aeth: kawa can't be (yet) on geiser partially because it can't recompile 'on the fly' (last time I talked about that to peer anyway) 2017-03-31T05:16:18Z aeth: At this stage, you should be investigating all of your options. 2017-03-31T05:17:48Z aeth: azathoth99: There is no library or language that will fit everyone's needs, so I'd try to find the main way(s) each one does web, and see if it fits what you want. 2017-03-31T05:19:47Z aeth: There should be at least one major web framework for every major implementation. Their own websites probably use it. 2017-03-31T05:20:21Z aeth: daviid: ah, that makes sense 2017-03-31T05:23:43Z MoronicAcid joined #scheme 2017-03-31T05:23:49Z daviid: azathoth99: guile has a lot of web related batteries, haunt, artanis and fibers , but what do you mean by web stuff? and what do you mean by web app? 2017-03-31T05:23:50Z dmiles: kawa can can interperet just about everything it'd need to compile though? 2017-03-31T05:24:03Z daviid: azathoth99: 'but its a mistake to make web apps in scheme...' why is that so? 2017-03-31T05:30:40Z dmiles: daviid: i think azathoth99 is wating for aeth to answer 2017-03-31T05:31:26Z dmiles: oh n/m azathoth99 said that .. aeth added r7rs 2017-03-31T05:31:52Z aeth: Unless I am mistaken, I named the three Schemes with large IRC communities and a healthy library ecosystem. 2017-03-31T05:32:50Z aeth: although racket's kind of not-Scheme too 2017-03-31T05:33:05Z dmiles: "portable r7rs" because at that point you've left the existing frameworks 2017-03-31T05:33:12Z aeth: right 2017-03-31T05:33:32Z aeth: If you wanted to make a web app, you'd do it within the library ecosystem of one of the big Schemes, or in CL, or in Clojure. 2017-03-31T05:34:19Z jmd joined #scheme 2017-03-31T05:45:45Z azathoth99: haunt ? fibers? must look up 2017-03-31T05:47:41Z azathoth99: https://github.com/wingo/fibers 2017-03-31T05:47:43Z azathoth99: woaa 2017-03-31T05:48:33Z daviid: dmiles: per bothner (kawa's author and maintainer) is also the author of domterm, hence he invests a lot more for kawa in a domterm then kawa within an emacs inferior mode, unfortunately imo, but mabe some comes up in the future: if kawa had a decent emacs inferior mode, it would make development using kawa a lot easier 2017-03-31T05:48:38Z azathoth99: so gambit is not considered big? no web thing for gambit? 2017-03-31T05:49:04Z daviid: dmiles: https://www.gnu.org/software/kawa/REPL-Console.html#Using-DomTerm http://domterm.org/ and https://lwn.net/Articles/670062/ 2017-03-31T05:49:10Z azathoth99: ok brain full must go bed 2017-03-31T05:51:48Z dmiles: daviid: i think i see 2017-03-31T05:51:50Z daviid: azathoth99: https://haunt.dthompson.us/ and http://www.gnu.org/software/artanis/ 2017-03-31T05:53:18Z azathoth99: is guile nice? 2017-03-31T05:53:41Z lambda-11235 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-03-31T05:53:45Z azathoth99: chicken seems pretty awesome 2017-03-31T05:53:58Z daviid: azathoth99: https://www.gnu.org/software/guile/ 2017-03-31T05:56:44Z azathoth99 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-03-31T05:56:51Z safe quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-03-31T06:10:09Z Guest90919 joined #scheme 2017-03-31T06:17:14Z Guest90919 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-03-31T06:24:31Z MoronicAcid quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-03-31T06:28:07Z jmd quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-03-31T06:38:03Z jonaslund joined #scheme 2017-03-31T06:44:14Z MoronicAcid joined #scheme 2017-03-31T06:48:30Z muelleme_ joined #scheme 2017-03-31T06:51:49Z Guest9277 joined #scheme 2017-03-31T06:52:50Z igajsin1 joined #scheme 2017-03-31T07:00:59Z Guest9277 quit (Quit: See you on the other side.....) 2017-03-31T07:09:55Z ventonegro joined #scheme 2017-03-31T07:12:51Z raduom joined #scheme 2017-03-31T07:16:02Z muelleme_ quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2017-03-31T07:24:25Z sz0 quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2017-03-31T07:30:41Z daviid quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-03-31T07:41:16Z lexicall joined #scheme 2017-03-31T07:41:58Z lexicall quit (Client Quit) 2017-03-31T07:44:14Z noethics quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-03-31T07:44:55Z civodul joined #scheme 2017-03-31T07:44:57Z caolanm left #scheme 2017-03-31T07:45:08Z sz0 joined #scheme 2017-03-31T07:47:35Z raduom quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-03-31T07:55:36Z Menche quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-03-31T07:56:03Z MoronicAcid quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-03-31T07:59:06Z shpx joined #scheme 2017-03-31T08:00:50Z pjb joined #scheme 2017-03-31T08:03:49Z shpx quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-03-31T08:09:12Z raduom joined #scheme 2017-03-31T08:14:17Z ByronJohnson quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-03-31T08:21:12Z ByronJohnson joined #scheme 2017-03-31T08:43:12Z raduom quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-03-31T08:44:59Z greatscottttt joined #scheme 2017-03-31T08:56:38Z redeemed joined #scheme 2017-03-31T09:02:46Z onehrxn joined #scheme 2017-03-31T09:03:46Z bjz joined #scheme 2017-03-31T09:04:00Z onehrxn quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-03-31T09:04:18Z onehrxn joined #scheme 2017-03-31T09:05:12Z onehrxn quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-03-31T09:27:05Z manualcrank quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.7) 2017-03-31T09:35:13Z lritter joined #scheme 2017-03-31T09:36:40Z azahi joined #scheme 2017-03-31T09:59:38Z shpx joined #scheme 2017-03-31T10:04:16Z shpx quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-03-31T10:06:03Z azahi quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-03-31T10:24:22Z fgudin quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-03-31T10:24:41Z mlaine quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-03-31T10:56:17Z bjz_ joined #scheme 2017-03-31T10:58:30Z bjz quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2017-03-31T11:04:25Z sz0 quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2017-03-31T11:18:56Z shdeng quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-03-31T11:24:06Z shpx joined #scheme 2017-03-31T11:24:06Z shpx quit (Changing host) 2017-03-31T11:24:06Z shpx joined #scheme 2017-03-31T11:39:16Z bjz_ quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-03-31T11:39:46Z bjz joined #scheme 2017-03-31T11:44:35Z nomicflux joined #scheme 2017-03-31T11:44:54Z nomicflux quit (Client Quit) 2017-03-31T12:07:45Z nomicflux joined #scheme 2017-03-31T12:16:35Z nomicflux quit (Quit: nomicflux) 2017-03-31T12:25:45Z daviid joined #scheme 2017-03-31T12:30:30Z \h quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2017-03-31T12:35:58Z gwatt: aeth: http://tryapl.org/ 2017-03-31T12:48:51Z arquebus joined #scheme 2017-03-31T12:51:36Z azahi joined #scheme 2017-03-31T12:52:36Z cemerick joined #scheme 2017-03-31T12:53:03Z oleo joined #scheme 2017-03-31T12:53:10Z vifino- is now known as vifino 2017-03-31T12:57:37Z \h joined #scheme 2017-03-31T13:00:44Z bjz quit (Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. 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It would need to be added non-portably to a Scheme in order to be done on vectors rather than lists. 2017-03-31T18:34:29Z aeth: In other words, I understand the logic, I just can't read it. :-p 2017-03-31T18:35:13Z shpx quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-03-31T18:36:42Z aeth: I just looked through SRFI 43 and I'm not sure if it would be sufficient. https://srfi.schemers.org/srfi-43/srfi-43.html 2017-03-31T18:37:43Z aeth: Probably. 2017-03-31T18:40:11Z BitPuffin|osx quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-03-31T18:40:49Z aeth: You'd have to fake 2D with a simple procedure to turn e.g. (mref 1 2) to a vector-ref, depending on if you're going row major or column major, but that's fairly simple. e.g. (define (matrix-index i j row-size) (+ i (* row-size j))) 2017-03-31T18:42:39Z aeth: or did I get that backwards? Never livecode untested code, even a one-liner on IRC 2017-03-31T18:43:46Z jcowan: If you want MD arrays, there are many SRFIs. The latest and greatest is SRFI 122 2017-03-31T18:44:44Z jcowan: which does what CL does, with the addition of flexible lower bounds 2017-03-31T18:53:38Z aeth: Ah, okay. Then afaik the things that APL can do, Scheme can also do, more readably, as long as you don't have parenaphobia. 2017-03-31T18:53:47Z TheLemonMan joined #scheme 2017-03-31T18:54:10Z aeth: There might be some edge cases that Scheme can't do well, but they're probably not in the simple examples. 2017-03-31T18:58:27Z jcowan: I originally planned to have an even bigger SRFI that supports things like APL inner and outer product, but SRFI 122 is probably enough to start with 2017-03-31T18:59:05Z jcowan: it already has lazy array-map, so you can do addition, Hadramard multiplication, and other per-element things 2017-03-31T19:04:51Z dTal: I would like to use APL/numpy-style array manipulation; it's very expressive 2017-03-31T19:11:11Z mlaine joined #scheme 2017-03-31T19:11:59Z mlaine quit (Client Quit) 2017-03-31T19:13:01Z oleo quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-03-31T19:13:17Z dTal: (+ lista listb) is much more readable than (map (lambda (a b) (+ a b)) lista listb) 2017-03-31T19:13:58Z dTal: although I've warmed to the latter form a bit since I bound "λ" to lambda 2017-03-31T19:18:39Z TheLemonMan: (map (cut + <> <>) lista listb) ; easy as cake with srfi-26 2017-03-31T19:19:31Z muelleme_ quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2017-03-31T19:20:20Z weinholt: (map + lista listb) ; and even without srfi-26 2017-03-31T19:21:29Z wasamasa: assuming srfi-1, sure 2017-03-31T19:21:47Z dTal: well you learn something new every day huh 2017-03-31T19:23:29Z weinholt: pretty sure r5rs/r6rs map is fine here 2017-03-31T19:25:41Z alezost quit (Quit: I live in GuixSD and Emacs ) 2017-03-31T19:26:22Z wasamasa: hum 2017-03-31T19:28:24Z wasamasa: I've recalled srfi-1 to have an extension note on map, but apparently that's just about the termination condition with multiple lists 2017-03-31T19:31:35Z shpx joined #scheme 2017-03-31T19:32:34Z aeth: dTal, weinholt: Don't use lists when you're talking about comparing Scheme to APL, though. 2017-03-31T19:32:39Z aeth: You have to look at the *vector* features. 2017-03-31T19:33:12Z aeth: jcowan: It looks like you have spent far more thought into comparing Scheme to APL, then. 2017-03-31T19:33:20Z weinholt: well, I wouldn't compare the two at all :) 2017-03-31T19:34:14Z gnomon: aeth, that's a rather significant understatement about the amount of thought and work jcowan has done in that field, I'd claim. 2017-03-31T19:36:21Z shpx quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-03-31T19:36:30Z aeth: gnomon: I'm only aware of jcowan's role in r7rs and SRFIs. 2017-03-31T19:37:10Z jcowan: That's pretty much my whole role in Scheme 2017-03-31T19:38:03Z dTal: all we have to do is roll in Forth and we'll have the best language of all time 2017-03-31T19:38:53Z gnomon: jcowan, you are being very, very modest. 2017-03-31T19:42:29Z oleo joined #scheme 2017-03-31T19:42:58Z aeth: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_W._Cowan 2017-03-31T19:43:17Z jcowan: Well, I am not an implementer, nor do I write libraries ecept in connection with SRFIs, nor do I write applications in Scheme 2017-03-31T19:43:57Z dTal: does anyone write applications in Scheme? 2017-03-31T19:44:32Z aeth: I started writing a game in Scheme, but moved to SBCL for performance. Although 5 years later and still no game. 2017-03-31T19:45:06Z aeth: So that means I just have generic, incomplete #lispgames game engine #10 2017-03-31T19:45:13Z dTal: I wonder how Chez compares to SBCL, speedwise 2017-03-31T19:47:19Z aeth: How does Chez handle types? My SBCL code winds up using (defun (x y z) (declare (foo x y z)) (do-something x y z)) a lot because that can make a big difference in SBCL, especially in areas where CL is generic (arithmetic and sequences) and a slow path would otherwise be taken. 2017-03-31T19:47:24Z aeth: So it wouldn't really be a fair comparison. 2017-03-31T19:47:42Z shpx joined #scheme 2017-03-31T19:48:28Z aeth: I suppose the sequence issue would partially not happen, although length information in the type might still matter for e.g. foo-map 2017-03-31T19:48:49Z jcowan: dTal: The Stalin "user community" (those are scare quotes) certainly does, but they are the only users as a rule. 2017-03-31T19:49:35Z bariscant joined #scheme 2017-03-31T19:52:20Z azahi joined #scheme 2017-03-31T19:55:06Z oleo quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-03-31T19:56:56Z aeth: One thing that could make a Lisp or Scheme much easier to write games in would be to add (mathematical) vectors, quaternions, and matrices to the numeric tower right next to complex, which will never happen, but would solve the issue of there being quite a few incomplete graphics libraries in a very Lispy (at least in the spirit of numerical tower) way. 2017-03-31T19:57:09Z aeth: There aren't dozens of incomplete libraries for handling complex numbers. The numerical tower handles it. 2017-03-31T19:57:58Z aeth: Also, bignums. 2017-03-31T19:58:16Z jmd quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-03-31T19:58:25Z aeth: Something like (* m (+ u v)) would instantly make interfacing with OpenGL easier, and that doesn't *need* to create garbage, even though it would *probably* create garbage if someone implemented it outside of the language itself. 2017-03-31T19:59:25Z aeth: (A sufficiently clever macro would rewrite the functional-seeming appearance into an imperative reality.) 2017-03-31T20:02:18Z aeth: e.g. There's no reason why expressing three quaternions multiplied like (* q1 q2 q3) is any less Lispy (or Schemey?) than (* c1 c2 c3) for three complex numbers 2017-03-31T20:08:11Z civodul joined #scheme 2017-03-31T20:08:50Z aeth: Only quaternions would easily fit in, though. They're just a + bi + cj + dk. I might try to find a way to sneak them into my Scheme if I ever finish it. 2017-03-31T20:09:10Z jao quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-03-31T20:11:22Z azahi quit (Quit: Bye) 2017-03-31T20:13:57Z aeth: (= (* (complex 0 1) (complex 1 1)) (complex -1 1)) and (= (* (quaternion 0 1 0 0) (quaternion 1 1 0 0)) (quaternion -1 1 0 0) (complex -1 1)) and now the numeric tower is capable of expressing three dimensional rotations without gimbal lock. 2017-03-31T20:14:29Z Riastradh: ...octonions... 2017-03-31T20:14:50Z aeth: They exist! https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Octonion 2017-03-31T20:19:23Z jao joined #scheme 2017-03-31T20:22:41Z aeth: They would be harder to add into CL or Scheme for syntactic reasons. In CL, quaternions can be #Q(1 2 3 4) just like #C(1 2) for complex and in Scheme they can be 1+2i+3j+4k just like 1+2i. 2017-03-31T20:23:11Z igajsin1 quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-03-31T20:23:12Z aeth: But it looks like they use e with subscripts, and #O is taken by octal. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Octonion 2017-03-31T20:23:32Z Riastradh: ...Clifford algebra... 2017-03-31T20:25:18Z aeth: oh, also Octonions are non-associative, which would hurt the assumption of (* a b c d) 2017-03-31T20:25:23Z aeth: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quaternion 2017-03-31T20:25:44Z aeth: Quaternions are merely non-commutative, which doesn't matter there. 2017-03-31T20:27:09Z TheLemonMan quit (Quit: "It's now safe to turn off your computer.") 2017-03-31T20:27:11Z dTal: you'd just have to establish a convention, like (* a b c d) = (* (* (* a b) c) d) 2017-03-31T20:28:02Z aeth: I'm actually not sure if Clifford algebra would have any issues in the numeric tower. Hmm... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clifford_algebra 2017-03-31T20:28:17Z Riastradh: Fun quiz: Let x be a floating-point number. Is ((x + x) + x) + x exact? 2017-03-31T20:28:31Z Riastradh: (Easier quiz. Is (x + x) + (x + x) exact?) 2017-03-31T20:28:44Z dTal: easier quiz: let x be a floating point answer. Is x exact? 2017-03-31T20:28:52Z dTal: (spoiler: no) 2017-03-31T20:29:33Z Riastradh: Here `exact' means that the expression computed with floating-point numbers gives the rounded value of the exact infinite-precision calculation, so the question is not as vacuous as anti-floating-point hipsters like to snidely and ignorantly comment. 2017-03-31T20:30:17Z Riastradh: (Assume that the result does not overflow.) 2017-03-31T20:31:18Z aeth: hmm, I think quaternions would be the last simple to add thing to the numeric tower 2017-03-31T20:31:41Z Riastradh: How about p-adic numbers? 2017-03-31T20:32:51Z Riastradh: Or hyperreals? 2017-03-31T20:33:13Z dTal: I'm not sure what "the exact infinite-precision calculation" means, when a floating point number does not define an exact real number 2017-03-31T20:33:28Z Riastradh: dTal: It certainly does. 2017-03-31T20:33:49Z Riastradh: This is the superstitious folklore that anti-floating-point hipsters promulgate without bothering to study the subject. 2017-03-31T20:35:02Z cemerick quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2017-03-31T20:35:45Z Riastradh: A binary floating-point number is s*2^(e - p), where s is an integer significand in [0, 2^p) and e is an integer exponent. It represents precisely that real number and no others. 2017-03-31T20:35:53Z dTal: Perhaps I phrased that badly. Multiple real values map to a single floating point number. 2017-03-31T20:37:02Z dTal: So I imagine, offhand, that the answer depends on the number of significant digits of the number you'd like to represent. 2017-03-31T20:37:06Z Riastradh: Sure. So the question is: Does ((x + x) + x) + x, evaluated in floating-point arithmetic, give exactly the floating-point number that is four times x, or does it somteimes give something else? 2017-03-31T20:37:07Z aeth: dTal: Infinitely many do. 2017-03-31T20:37:25Z dTal: aeth: obviously. That's "multiple" :p 2017-03-31T20:37:32Z aeth: Multiple understates it. 2017-03-31T20:39:24Z aeth: There are infinitely many real numbers between a and b... so round half to b and half to a. 2017-03-31T20:39:53Z Riastradh: It turns out that floating-point isn't actually black magic, but if you treat it as black magic you're going to be bitten as you would expect from playing with black magic. 2017-03-31T20:41:09Z dTal: I imagine, then, with 4 successive adds the cumulative error between the "ideal" value and the actual, quantized value can exceed a quanta 2017-03-31T20:41:48Z Riastradh: One would imagine that, one would. Can one find an example, or can one prove it will never happen? 2017-03-31T20:42:31Z daviid joined #scheme 2017-03-31T20:43:34Z Riastradh: (Fact: (x + x) + x is *not* always exact. For examplef, (.1 + .1) + .1 = .30000000000000004, not .3, where each decimal expansion represents its nearest floating-point number.) 2017-03-31T20:44:30Z Riastradh: (But ((.1 + .1) + .1) + .1 = .4) 2017-03-31T20:45:00Z aeth: Oh wow. I didn't know jcowan was in charge of figlet back when I used to use it. http://www.figlet.org/ 2017-03-31T20:45:27Z aeth: 1996-2001 according to LICENSE. 2017-03-31T20:45:29Z jcowan: Hardly "in charge of". I did the Unicodification of it. 2017-03-31T20:45:35Z aeth: That program was a ton of fun 2017-03-31T20:45:37Z jcowan: and added a lot of Unicode fonts 2017-03-31T20:46:00Z jcowan: Much later I used some of those fonts to drive a scrolling display of news headlines at the New York Daily News 2017-03-31T20:46:32Z Riastradh: Next you'll say you didn't know jcowan had collaborated with Arlo Guthrie! 2017-03-31T20:46:56Z aeth: jcowan: A text application without Unicode is absolutely useless these days! *And* a million times less complicated than with Unicode! 2017-03-31T20:47:15Z Riastradh: Or that jcowan was an editor of the XML standard. 2017-03-31T20:47:17Z aeth: (perhaps quite literally a million times... utf-8 ruins a lot of nice-to-the-programmer assumptions about text) 2017-03-31T20:48:02Z Riastradh: UTF-8 is still pretty nice to programmers. For example, text search with Boyer-Moore works great on it, unlike UTF-16 or, far worse, UTF-32. 2017-03-31T20:48:08Z jcowan: Only if you are doing it wrong in the first place (assuming O(1) random access er sumpn) 2017-03-31T20:48:28Z jcowan: Same with strstr searching, of course 2017-03-31T20:48:32Z dTal: ‫ه̒ͨ҈҉҉҉҉҉҉҉҉҉҉҉҉҉҉҉҉҉҉҉҉҉҉҉҉҉҉‬‎ - 2017-03-31T20:48:56Z Riastradh: O(1) random access to *code point*, which is a unit of measurement that corresponds neither to useful memory units nor to human-meaningful units in text. 2017-03-31T20:49:50Z aeth: jcowan: I think the history of programming thus far shows that a lot of people do text wrong 2017-03-31T20:49:59Z jcowan: "How absolute the knave is! We must speak by the card, or equivocation will undo us." 2017-03-31T20:50:07Z qu1j0t3: ha 2017-03-31T20:50:10Z badkins quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-03-31T20:50:15Z qu1j0t3 is undone 2017-03-31T20:51:07Z aeth: I just entered some Portuguese into figlet and it didn't work. Do I have to change the font from the default? 2017-03-31T20:51:42Z jcowan: It defaults to ISO 8859-1, I think, so you need -c utf8 2017-03-31T20:51:57Z jcowan: not all fonts handle Portuguese, either 2017-03-31T20:52:16Z aeth: That's why I picked Portuguese. for the ã 2017-03-31T20:52:20Z jcowan nods. 2017-03-31T20:52:29Z jcowan: original fonts handled only German and English 2017-03-31T20:53:30Z aeth: It looks like the default doesn't even handle é 2017-03-31T20:53:41Z aeth: or ü 2017-03-31T20:55:16Z jcowan: The first doesn't surprise me, the second does 2017-03-31T20:55:48Z JoshS quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-03-31T20:57:42Z bariscant quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2017-03-31T20:58:57Z gravicappa quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-03-31T20:59:05Z bariscant joined #scheme 2017-03-31T20:59:29Z aeth: It's probably assuming a different encoding than where UTF-8 places ü 2017-03-31T21:00:00Z aeth: interestingly, ü gives me the à that I was looking for (but upper case) as well as 1/4 2017-03-31T21:01:15Z jcowan: Are you using figlet 2.2.2? (figlet -v) 2017-03-31T21:01:55Z aeth: jcowan: ah, it's figlet -C utf8 2017-03-31T21:02:05Z aeth: -c centers, and thus I was confused reading the manpages ever since you told me that 2017-03-31T21:02:21Z jcowan: right 2017-03-31T21:02:24Z jcowan: I just noticed that 2017-03-31T21:03:01Z aeth: now it's just a font issue, e.g. it's missing ẽ but has ã 2017-03-31T21:03:02Z jcowan: You can check font coverage in $PREFIX/share/figlet 2017-03-31T21:03:19Z bjz joined #scheme 2017-03-31T21:03:29Z jcowan: Right, because the basic fonts only do the Latin-1 repertoire 2017-03-31T21:04:00Z jcowan: so ã and õ but not ẽ. 2017-03-31T21:04:31Z aeth: I can say e.g. "Vocês estão aqui." (You (pl.) are here.) and probably most other arbitrary sentences in European languages using the Latin alphabet 2017-03-31T21:04:44Z aeth: I'd have to specifically look for gaps now to find them, so entering random sentences won't really work 2017-03-31T21:05:22Z aeth: If you're right about Latin-1 this would be it: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ISO/IEC_8859-1#Languages_with_incomplete_coverage 2017-03-31T21:06:25Z aeth: Some of those work, some don't. ő and Ā work, so someone probably added support for various Unicode characters in the past 15 years. 2017-03-31T21:06:31Z jcowan: or rather ê but not ẽ 2017-03-31T21:09:34Z JoshS joined #scheme 2017-03-31T21:09:44Z JoshS quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-03-31T21:10:08Z JoshS joined #scheme 2017-03-31T21:10:24Z JoshS quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-03-31T21:10:45Z aeth: I think you're understating the importance of adding Unicode support to figlet. It still does some of the best heading-style text out there. http://paste.lisp.org/+7COQ 2017-03-31T21:11:03Z JoshS joined #scheme 2017-03-31T21:11:08Z aeth: That is beautifully done, especially in a dark on light terminal font. (It doesn't look as good in lisp paste as it does in my terminal) 2017-03-31T21:11:09Z JoshS quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-03-31T21:11:39Z aeth: And only being able to write English and German with that utility would be bad. 2017-03-31T21:12:22Z jcowan_ joined #scheme 2017-03-31T21:13:19Z vydd joined #scheme 2017-03-31T21:13:19Z vydd quit (Changing host) 2017-03-31T21:13:19Z vydd joined #scheme 2017-03-31T21:14:27Z jcowan quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-03-31T21:15:16Z jao quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-03-31T21:17:55Z azahi joined #scheme 2017-03-31T21:18:12Z oleo joined #scheme 2017-03-31T21:18:41Z jao joined #scheme 2017-03-31T21:20:08Z justinethier joined #scheme 2017-03-31T21:21:13Z bariscant quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-03-31T21:32:00Z Riastradh quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-03-31T21:44:26Z bjz quit (Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2017-03-31T21:50:10Z vydd quit 2017-03-31T21:57:04Z justinethier quit (Quit: Page closed) 2017-03-31T22:02:25Z enderby joined #scheme 2017-03-31T22:07:03Z azahi quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-03-31T22:12:13Z cemerick joined #scheme 2017-03-31T22:16:03Z jao quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-03-31T22:18:38Z mlaine joined #scheme 2017-03-31T22:18:44Z cemerick quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2017-03-31T22:20:50Z dTal: is there a more elegant way to do an operation on a cartesian product of lists than the following: 2017-03-31T22:20:53Z dTal: (map (λ (y) (map (λ (x) (do-thing x y)) xlist)) ylist) 2017-03-31T22:21:22Z dTal: only it seems a little ugly somehow 2017-03-31T22:22:25Z qu1j0t3: if you're doing it a lot you could make a function/macro for it. 2017-03-31T22:23:01Z jcowan_ quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-03-31T22:25:05Z grublet quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-03-31T22:26:55Z dTal: It's quite easy to wrap that in a function but it's a rather interesting exercise for the reader to generalise to arbitrary dimensions 2017-03-31T22:29:58Z jao joined #scheme 2017-03-31T22:30:04Z aeth: I can think of other ways to do that, but they'd be less elegant, although perhaps more performant. 2017-03-31T22:30:36Z aeth: That's the sort of thing where I'd look into using do because it can do very fancy iteration 2017-03-31T22:32:44Z dTal: APL definitely spoiled me 2017-03-31T22:42:52Z daviid quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-03-31T22:43:59Z bjz joined #scheme 2017-03-31T22:49:18Z civodul quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 25.1.1)) 2017-03-31T23:16:25Z shpx quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-03-31T23:22:02Z pjb: dTal: of course, you can just write: (mapXmap do-thing xlist ylist) 2017-03-31T23:22:38Z pjb: There are apl-like lisp libraries. 2017-03-31T23:22:47Z pjb: Think what you could do with unicode! 2017-03-31T23:29:41Z dTal: oh I am. I'd appreciate a link to any libraries, I had a google but all I could find was references to decades-old threads saying how cool it would be, and references to APROL 2017-03-31T23:30:35Z dTal: seems like a parser for APL syntax should be dead easy, and APL-in-Scheme would be supercool 2017-03-31T23:33:16Z dTal: how do you mean, mapXmap ? 2017-03-31T23:34:48Z pjb: (define (mapXmap fxy xs ys) (map (λ (y) (map (λ (x) (fxy x y)) xs)) ys)) 2017-03-31T23:36:07Z dTal: oh you mean define it myself :) Did that, except I called it cartesian-map 2017-03-31T23:43:11Z dTal: what's the closest scheme equivalent to an enum? I want a single variable to have multiple fields I can refer to by name. Hashtables seem overcomplicated for that. 2017-03-31T23:43:35Z dTal: an alist? 2017-03-31T23:47:42Z pjb: depends. 2017-03-31T23:47:51Z pjb: There are really two use cases for enums. 2017-03-31T23:48:10Z pjb: one is to define a set of integer constants to be used externally (file format, network protocols). 2017-03-31T23:48:24Z pjb: Another is to have a set of unique symbolic atoms. 2017-03-31T23:49:08Z pjb: In the later case, you can just use the symbols (or keywords). In the former case, you need to bind the values; there's no (r5rs) standard way, so you would have to write a macro to generate them. 2017-03-31T23:49:13Z pjb: or use a library. 2017-03-31T23:49:47Z pjb: In some cases (inspired from some OO programming languages), enums can even be instances of an enum class. 2017-03-31T23:50:02Z pjb: that is, if you use an OO system. 2017-03-31T23:50:57Z dTal: I mean like a "window-scale" variable, where you have xmin, xmax, ymin, ymax; you could simply use a list and define an ordering convention, but I'd rather do a window-scale.xmin type thing 2017-03-31T23:54:05Z pjb: Yes, anything is possible. Just write a macro to generate that. 2017-03-31T23:55:45Z dTal: I don't literally mean I want that syntax, just those semantics. I have (cdr (assoc 'xmin window-scale)) using alists, but it seems verbose. Perhaps there's a more idiomatic way? 2017-03-31T23:56:19Z pjb: But again, if it's for external purpose and you need specific values, perhaps you better just define them: (define window-scale.xmin 0) (define window-scale.xmax 1) (define window-scale.ymin 2) (define window-scale.ymax 3) 2017-03-31T23:56:23Z dTal: (mostly the 'cdr' seems verbose, which seems like a hint that maybe it wasn't meant to be used this way) 2017-03-31T23:56:45Z Riastradh joined #scheme 2017-03-31T23:56:49Z pjb: dTal: you're a programmer! Write functional abstractions so that it's not verbose! 2017-03-31T23:56:56Z pjb: It's your job to make it non-verbose! 2017-03-31T23:57:57Z dTal: As I said, I'm asking because when trivial, everyday things seem verbose or awkward I take it as a hint I've not fully understood the language/culture, and I 2017-03-31T23:58:09Z dTal: ahem, delete the "and I" 2017-03-31T23:59:24Z dTal: When I said "enum" perhaps "homogenous struct" is a better word; I don't care about ordering or internal representation, in fact that's what I'm trying to avoid hardcoding 2017-03-31T23:59:52Z dTal: I just want to pass a single value, and unpack into multiple named fields; that's it