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2017-02-01T00:01:43Z pjb: What other programming language did you use?
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2017-02-01T00:57:44Z noethics: has anyone dealt with dispatching functions to a language that has overloading
2017-02-01T00:58:18Z noethics: its not possible with just coercion right?
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2017-02-01T13:26:13Z jerin[m]: Hello, I need something like the racket thunk. As in, the details of how to implement a function which doesn't evaluate it's arguments
2017-02-01T13:26:29Z jerin[m]: Can someone tell me what concept I should be googling?
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2017-02-01T13:48:37Z renopt: jerin[m]: hmm, maybe delayed evaluation? see (delay foo), (force foo)
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2017-02-01T14:04:48Z jerin[m]: renopt, that's the idea I want. But I want implementation of the function
2017-02-01T14:05:23Z jerin[m]: thunk makes sure arguments aren't evaluated
2017-02-01T14:06:07Z jerin[m]: Not high priority now btw, I used lambda wrappings with vim macros
2017-02-01T14:06:14Z jerin[m]: And did it the hard way
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2017-02-01T14:08:16Z renopt: jerin[m]: this is a good overview, http://people.cs.aau.dk/~normark/prog3-03/html/notes/eval-order_themes-delay-stream-section.html
2017-02-01T14:10:07Z renopt: the example there isn't memoizing, though, if you need that
2017-02-01T14:13:14Z renopt: here's an implementation of a memoizing delay, http://sprunge.us/iaXA?scm
2017-02-01T14:13:27Z ogamita: jerin[m]: functions that obtain their argument unevaluated, this occurs with lazy evaluation. This can be simulated with delay and force.  Also, macros (not functions) get their arguments unevaluated. Perhaps you want to write a macro?
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2017-02-02T08:54:23Z clmg: Any schemes (other than racket) that have http support?
2017-02-02T08:54:48Z wasamasa: CHICKEN
2017-02-02T08:54:57Z clmg: long time no see wasamasa
2017-02-02T08:55:04Z C-Keen: bwaak
2017-02-02T08:55:12Z wasamasa: just install http-client and you're good to go
2017-02-02T08:55:26Z clmg: you helped me learn scheme years ago :-)
2017-02-02T08:55:55Z wasamasa: or spiffy for a server
2017-02-02T08:56:20Z wasamasa: hum, can't even remember that
2017-02-02T08:56:27Z lucasem: scheme can do tcp
2017-02-02T08:56:38Z lucasem: so technically also http
2017-02-02T08:57:01Z lucasem: mit-scheme*
2017-02-02T08:57:07Z wasamasa: oh sure, land of lisp has a http server tutorial
2017-02-02T08:57:36Z wasamasa: doesn't mean that writing your own is always a practical option
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2017-02-02T09:05:39Z ecraven: just run nginx and use scgi
2017-02-02T09:05:45Z ecraven: that's simple to implement
2017-02-02T09:06:08Z clmg: chibi-scheme seems to have a net/http library
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2017-02-02T09:10:56Z clmg: undocumented* library
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2017-02-02T12:38:44Z jerin[m]: ogamita: Macros might be nice. let me look
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2017-02-02T14:49:19Z kaja_bhai: How can I ignore unbound identifiers and tell the script to run the ones which run?
2017-02-02T14:49:50Z kaja_bhai: as in, other blocks which work fine, but one statement which causes an unbound identifier
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2017-02-03T03:46:45Z koz_: Another day, another Cyclone issue. :P
2017-02-03T03:50:03Z justinethier: :)
2017-02-03T03:51:25Z justinethier: do you mean the issue you reopened?
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2017-02-03T03:53:19Z koz_: justinethier: Yep, the very same.
2017-02-03T03:53:27Z koz_: I'm busy working on getting all the SRFI 60 tests passing.
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2017-02-03T03:53:49Z koz_: I'm discovering some interesting things about a) my code, b) my test code and c) R5 (and 7)RS in the process.
2017-02-03T03:53:55Z justinethier: on a positive note, I closed the cond-expand issue: "Allow a program to have more than one import declaration. A program can now also use cond-expand to selectively expand import declarations."
2017-02-03T03:54:08Z koz_: justinethier: Excellent! Thanks very much.
2017-02-03T03:54:14Z koz_: (I'll test it as soon as I have all these passing)
2017-02-03T03:54:33Z justinethier: no problem, thank you
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2017-02-03T03:57:06Z justinethier: I'm not sure what to do about #153 - it might be necessary to have another flag to allow specifying additional locations for C headers
2017-02-03T03:57:30Z justinethier: looks like you're pulling in an old header
2017-02-03T03:58:01Z koz_: Possible - and I guess necessary too.
2017-02-03T03:59:31Z justinethier: it would be good to have this flexibility, yes
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2017-02-03T04:00:46Z koz_: Where would I be getting this old header from, I wonder?
2017-02-03T04:00:54Z justinethier: ideally it should be possible to have the ability to sandbox a local copy as much as possible
2017-02-03T04:00:57Z koz_: I assume the headers in cyclone-bootstrap have been updated?
2017-02-03T04:01:06Z justinethier: do you have an older version installed on the system?
2017-02-03T04:01:10Z koz_: Yeah - sandboxing is essential for in-tree tests.
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2017-02-03T04:01:19Z koz_: Of Cyclone? Yeah, I think that might be it.
2017-02-03T04:01:24Z koz_: (I need to update to git head soon)
2017-02-03T04:01:30Z justinethier: ifok
2017-02-03T04:01:32Z justinethier: ok
2017-02-03T04:01:46Z koz_: I'll just do a quick test.
2017-02-03T04:01:49Z justinethier: ok
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2017-02-03T04:03:05Z justinethier: going to have to sign off in a minute...
2017-02-03T04:03:09Z koz_: It tentatively seems that you're correct - once I removed Cyclone from my system, it builds fine.
2017-02-03T04:03:20Z koz_: So yeah, need a flag for C headers too.
2017-02-03T04:03:31Z justinethier: awesome, good to know
2017-02-03T04:03:34Z justinethier: i updated the ticket
2017-02-03T04:03:39Z koz_: Thanks!
2017-02-03T04:03:50Z koz_: (and thanks for your very fast work - I assume you've got a day job too)
2017-02-03T04:04:02Z koz_: (if so, you're some kind of hero for managing to fix all this so fast)
2017-02-03T04:04:03Z justinethier: I'm not sure about calling across repos like that, from cyclone to cyclone-bootstrap... is that just an example?
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2017-02-03T04:04:10Z justinethier: no problem
2017-02-03T04:04:16Z koz_: It's just an example - and what I'm doing right now.
2017-02-03T04:04:27Z justinethier: ok
2017-02-03T04:04:29Z justinethier: no worries
2017-02-03T04:04:31Z justinethier: yeah, got a day job as well
2017-02-03T04:04:47Z koz_: In that case, you're some kind of hero.
2017-02-03T04:04:51Z justinethier: doing a lot of bigloo scheme over there so at least it is somewhat related
2017-02-03T04:04:52Z koz_ is a grad student.
2017-02-03T04:05:08Z justinethier: heh, thanks :)
2017-02-03T04:05:36Z justinethier: hey, just gotta try to make the time for these things
2017-02-03T04:05:59Z justinethier: there are a lot of tickets that are still sitting there :)
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2017-02-03T04:06:19Z koz_: Yeah, but I'm glad you're prioritizing mine.
2017-02-03T04:06:39Z justinethier: no problem
2017-02-03T04:06:54Z koz_: OK, *definitely* a header location issue.
2017-02-03T04:07:29Z koz_: (cyclone-bootstrap compiles fine, but when I try to compile cyclone stuff in-tree with the results, it *really* doesn't like it)
2017-02-03T04:07:52Z justinethier: uh oh
2017-02-03T04:09:07Z koz_: It's OK - nothing I can't work around.
2017-02-03T04:09:14Z justinethier: ok
2017-02-03T04:09:22Z koz_: (I've almost got all the tests passing, so I'll update my fork and PR it)
2017-02-03T04:09:38Z justinethier: awesome, sounds great
2017-02-03T04:09:48Z justinethier: gotta sign off for the night
2017-02-03T04:09:56Z justinethier: have a good one :)
2017-02-03T04:10:21Z koz_: Same to you!
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2017-02-03T05:10:56Z jerin[m]: I'm trying to code a judge of sorts
2017-02-03T05:11:22Z jerin[m]: I'm having issues with some of the submissions having unbound identifiers
2017-02-03T05:11:29Z jerin[m]: Which I'm trying to call from my script.
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2017-02-03T05:11:42Z jerin[m]: Any way to handle the exception gracefully and continue the other tests?
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2017-02-03T05:41:45Z koz_: jerin[m]: A judge of what?
2017-02-03T05:42:23Z jerin[m]: koz_: I am to grade student submissions of problems given to be solved using racket
2017-02-03T05:42:30Z jerin[m]: koz_: mostly functions
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2017-02-03T05:42:45Z jerin[m]: koz_: I'm currently using a hack using an if-defined macro I found on stack-overflow
2017-02-03T05:42:49Z jerin[m]: :'D
2017-02-03T05:43:26Z koz_: jerin[m]: You have all my sympathies - I'm a grad student, and grading awful student code is typical for me.
2017-02-03T05:43:31Z koz_: (not right now, luckily, but soon)
2017-02-03T05:43:47Z jerin[m]: koz_: I'm an undergrad. :D
2017-02-03T05:44:00Z koz_: jerin[m]: Been there, done that. :P
2017-02-03T05:44:17Z koz_: (no t-shirt though)
2017-02-03T05:44:32Z jerin[m]: koz_: System's pretty messed up too. The racket codes are supposed to be tangled out of an org file the student submits
2017-02-03T05:44:39Z jerin[m]: koz_: Leads to more headaches
2017-02-03T05:45:01Z koz_: jerin[m]: Ouch.
2017-02-03T05:45:43Z koz_: Luckily for me, right now, I only have to contend with research code and Cyclone Scheme. :P
2017-02-03T05:45:59Z koz_: (although most of the frustration of the former is my own incompetence)
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2017-02-03T15:15:59Z orz: Hello. Various implementations come with various REPLs; I'm looking for one where the REPL is especially suitable for keeping on 24/7 and working as a kind of shell replacement/alternative on a unix system. Suggestions?
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2017-02-03T15:24:36Z gwatt: https://scsh.net/
2017-02-03T15:24:49Z gwatt: though it's not maintained
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2017-02-03T17:04:09Z jcowan: ecraven: ping about arrays
2017-02-03T17:11:01Z qu1j0t3: jcowan: pong about grids
2017-02-03T17:11:13Z qu1j0t3: jcowan: also hi
2017-02-03T17:14:11Z jcowan: What kind of grids?
2017-02-03T17:14:33Z jcowan: (Huckleberry grids?)
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2017-02-03T17:23:42Z thorwil: i'd like to experiment with some gui programming. that might include custom pie/marking menus at some point.
2017-02-03T17:23:48Z ecraven: jcowan: pong
2017-02-03T17:24:33Z jcowan: Thanks for the pointer to the Dijkstra article.  As I see it, it argues for lower-bound-inclusive, upper-bound-exclusive numbering, which is not in question (we use it throughout Scheme).
2017-02-03T17:25:35Z jcowan: My issue is whether numberings like -40 <= x < 60 is useful enough to provide, and on reflection I think it clearly is
2017-02-03T17:25:37Z thorwil: which requires drawing "outside"/"on top" of a normal window. targeting X11/wayland/mir. is there any implementation/binding/libarary that would make that easier?
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2017-02-03T17:26:37Z ecraven: jcowan: I thought it argued for 0-based indexing?
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2017-02-03T17:27:01Z ecraven: personally, I'd avoid non-zero-based indices
2017-02-03T17:27:51Z jcowan: A use case would be setting up a histogram of temperature readings, where part of the range is inherently negative (unless you do it in kelvins, in which case much of the space is wasted).
2017-02-03T17:28:13Z ecraven: well, *if* you support non-zero-based indices, why would you not support -40 <= x < 60?
2017-02-03T17:28:22Z jcowan: Note that the Dijkstra article deals with the interval 2..13, and simply asks what this means.
2017-02-03T17:28:38Z ecraven: it is the logical extension of min <= i < max
2017-02-03T17:28:45Z jcowan: Oh, I would.
2017-02-03T17:29:23Z jcowan: And I accept Dijkstra's argument to use that format.  The question is whether there are use cases where min is naturally not 0, and I think histograms are such a use case.
2017-02-03T17:29:46Z jcowan: (of cardinal data like temperature, anyway)
2017-02-03T17:29:55Z ecraven: hm... there are many use cases, but I'm not sure the basic array library should deal with that
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2017-02-03T17:30:15Z ecraven: only ordinal data is zero-based, I guess.. (and even for that you can argue one-based ;)
2017-02-03T17:30:45Z ecraven: but I don't think the basic array library is the right place to deal with that, rather the actual histogram code is the right place, imho
2017-02-03T17:31:12Z ecraven: sorry, kids want dinner, I'll be back later, in case you want to hear more about my opinions ;)
2017-02-03T17:31:57Z wasamasa: thorwil: it requires a special X11 extension
2017-02-03T17:32:00Z wasamasa: thorwil: good luck!
2017-02-03T17:32:17Z wasamasa: thorwil: wayland doesn't support it to my knowledge and as mir is dead in the water...
2017-02-03T17:32:30Z wasamasa: thorwil: you'd be better off writing such a thing to run in the browser :P
2017-02-03T17:32:56Z gwatt: ubuntu gave up on mir?
2017-02-03T17:34:35Z thorwil: wasamasa: i found the x11 extension and examples that suggest a shaped window can be created via gdk/gtk. thus proper bindings should cover that!? wayland has no equivalent to the shape extension?
2017-02-03T17:34:51Z wasamasa: thorwil: it's much more restrictive
2017-02-03T17:35:36Z thorwil: bbiab
2017-02-03T17:35:45Z wasamasa: gwatt: nobody is assisting them in making it a success, so I doubt we'll ever hear about it again
2017-02-03T17:36:50Z gwatt: wasamasa: looks active on launchpad
2017-02-03T17:36:53Z gwatt: https://code.launchpad.net/mir
2017-02-03T17:38:04Z wasamasa: with no support from the ubuntu derivatives or intel, well, I said it before
2017-02-03T17:38:22Z wasamasa: same with all the big desktop environments
2017-02-03T17:38:36Z wasamasa: the only thing with plans to use mir is unity
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2017-02-04T03:13:26Z koz_: Is there a way I can return case-lambda-capable procedures from other procedures?
2017-02-04T03:15:36Z koz_: (in R7RS)
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2017-02-04T03:20:25Z cojy: can you give an example that isnt working?
2017-02-04T03:20:43Z cojy: the question doesn't make sense to me because the lambda a case-lambda will turn into is no different than any other
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2017-02-04T03:40:24Z koz_: cojy: Never mind - I figured out I don't actually need this capability.
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2017-02-04T04:58:34Z koz_: I'm looking for a data structure which can do two things efficiently: get the best item based on a fixed predicate (at structure creation) and insert items (preferably do well if given multiple items at once). What would you suggest I use/implement in R7RS Scheme?
2017-02-04T04:59:13Z koz_: s/predicate/comparison procedure/
2017-02-04T04:59:28Z koz_: (oh, and also remove the best item based on said fixed comparison procedure efficiently)
2017-02-04T04:59:57Z Riastradh: By `comparison predicate', do you mean a total order on items, represented, e.g., by a < procedure or a three-way-compare procedure?
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2017-02-04T05:02:33Z koz_: Riastradh: Total order on items, as by <, yes.
2017-02-04T05:02:40Z Riastradh: koz_: Sounds like you want a heap.
2017-02-04T05:02:44Z koz_: s/as by/as if by/
2017-02-04T05:03:01Z koz_: Riastradh: ... I feel embarrassed I even had to ask. Binary heap, I guess?
2017-02-04T05:03:08Z Riastradh: Sure.
2017-02-04T05:03:28Z koz_: That shouldn't be too hard to do.
2017-02-04T05:04:21Z koz_ wonders if Chibi implemented vectors using dynamic or static arrays.
2017-02-04T05:04:42Z Riastradh: What difference do you mean by that?
2017-02-04T05:05:49Z koz_: Riastradh: Static arrays are the kind C provides - size fixed at creation, and expensive resizing. Dynamic arrays are the kind that amortize insertions by doubling the backing (static) array's size when it gets full.
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2017-02-04T05:06:21Z Riastradh: Almost certainly static -- what Scheme calls `vectors' are not usually taken to be extensible.
2017-02-04T05:06:36Z koz_: OK, so it means I'll need to implement *that* too.
2017-02-04T05:06:39Z koz_: Luckily, that's fairly easy.
2017-02-04T05:06:54Z koz_: (one of the easiest ways to implement a binary heap is using a dynamic array, hence my question)
2017-02-04T05:07:27Z Riastradh: Here's an extensible vector: https://mumble.net/~campbell/scheme/xvector.scm
2017-02-04T05:08:14Z koz_: Riastradh: Thanks - that'll save me a lot of time.
2017-02-04T05:09:17Z Riastradh: It doesn't do doubling of the underlying storage -- rather, it adds sqrt(n) or something at each step, which is asymptotically optimal in some sense that I forget now because it was a decade ago that I read the paper.
2017-02-04T05:10:15Z Riastradh: (Beware, of course, that `asymptotically optimal' does not alone imply `fast'.  The naive doubling xvector will probably serve your needs faster in most cases.)
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2017-02-04T05:16:26Z noethics: is there an algorithm most scheme (or untyped languages in general) use to coerce scheme types
2017-02-04T05:16:52Z noethics: i really don't want to add type annotations :3
2017-02-04T05:18:08Z noethics: i think i may have to though for like half the cases unfortunately
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2017-02-04T05:37:53Z koz_: noethics: Could you explain more exactly what you mean?
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2017-02-04T06:07:22Z noethics: koz_, im messing with a simple scheme interpreter for another language with types
2017-02-04T06:07:57Z noethics: this language also has overloading
2017-02-04T06:08:16Z noethics: ive chosen 64 bit floats for number types. however i can't easily discern which function from the target language to call because it is ambiguous
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2017-02-04T06:08:42Z noethics: there are a lot of cases that i can account for or just do the "sane thing" but there's a bunch of cases i'm not sure about
2017-02-04T06:09:58Z noethics: i believe i need a combination of type annotations + coercion + type inference
2017-02-04T06:10:13Z noethics: just wondering if there's a strategy i can use that's i optimally defined :)
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2017-02-05T00:53:14Z ZombieChicken: I remember reading somewhere that R7RS big was supposed to be implementable using just R7RS small. Does anyone know for sure or is it too early to tell?
2017-02-05T00:53:37Z koz_: ZombieChicken: I'd say it's too early to tell. However, I think the Red Edition fits this bill.
2017-02-05T00:53:59Z qu1j0t3: ZombieChicken: i bet jcowan knows but he's not here
2017-02-05T00:54:28Z koz_: (basically, it's a question of whether the SRFIs that go into R7RS-big require something which can't be done in 'raw' Scheme, and AFAIK, nothing in the Red Edition does)
2017-02-05T00:54:37Z ZombieChicken: I hope that happens to be the case. I'm entirely a newbie, but being able to implement the... I guess featureful... version in the small bit would be nice.
2017-02-05T00:54:51Z qu1j0t3: ZombieChicken: you could leave jcowan a memo tho
2017-02-05T00:55:00Z ZombieChicken: qu1j0t3: How?
2017-02-05T00:56:07Z qu1j0t3:  /msg memoserv send jcowan ...your text here...
2017-02-05T00:56:09Z ZombieChicken: I'm brand spanking new here so I don't know if there is a bot for that or not
2017-02-05T00:56:15Z ZombieChicken: ah, thanks
2017-02-05T00:56:19Z qu1j0t3: but this probably only works if jcowan knows how to contact you back
2017-02-05T00:56:25Z qu1j0t3: you could put an email in your message
2017-02-05T00:56:38Z koz_: Or just idle in this chan for a while.
2017-02-05T00:56:42Z qu1j0t3: or that.
2017-02-05T00:56:44Z qu1j0t3: he's in every day or so
2017-02-05T00:58:32Z ZombieChicken: I just asked him to PM me. I'm only off IRC about (according to uprecords) 4 hours a year or so
2017-02-05T00:58:52Z ZombieChicken: Thanks for the help folks
2017-02-05T00:59:20Z koz_: ZombieChicken: No worries. Glad we could help.
2017-02-05T00:59:30Z koz_: (or at least I am - can't speak for qu1j0t3)
2017-02-05T00:59:54Z qu1j0t3: hahahaha. Always happy to help.
2017-02-05T00:59:58Z koz_: (How do you even *pronounce* that? 'Kw-one-jay-zero-tee-three'?)
2017-02-05T01:00:19Z qu1j0t3: Don Quijote in the spanish manner i guess. who's a better knight than I am.
2017-02-05T01:00:26Z koz_: qu1j0t3: Ah, fair enough.
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2017-02-05T01:01:32Z koz_ just realized the plural of 'SRFI' should technically be 'SRsFI'.
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2017-02-05T01:13:37Z ZombieChicken: English is kind of weird about things like that
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2017-02-05T01:13:55Z ZombieChicken: or at least how comp people tend to use it
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2017-02-05T01:15:35Z koz_: ZombieChicken: Yeah, 'Secretaries-General' and all that.
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2017-02-05T02:36:11Z koz_: Another day, another Cyclone PR.
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2017-02-05T05:13:47Z koz_: Could someone please explain to me the purpose of the (content (stream-promise promise)) inside the let* in stream-force in the sample implementation of SRFI 41? I don't get why that line is even needed there.
2017-02-05T05:13:57Z koz_: Should it be (content (stream-promise promise*))?
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2017-02-06T00:18:07Z Kristof_HT: hello
2017-02-06T00:18:26Z koz_: Hi Kristof_HT!
2017-02-06T00:18:54Z Kristof_HT: is MIT scheme a good implementation choice for someone just learning first steps?
2017-02-06T00:23:10Z gwatt: Kristof_HT: probably just about any scheme would be fine for learning.
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2017-02-06T00:30:08Z koz_: Kristof_HT: I agree with gwatt in principle, although I think it depends on what you want to use Scheme for.
2017-02-06T00:30:19Z koz_: If you just wanna learn for the sake of Scheme learning, then sure.
2017-02-06T00:32:17Z Kristof_HT: for now i just want something that will work with sublime text
2017-02-06T00:32:28Z Kristof_HT: for 'first steps' learning
2017-02-06T00:32:55Z koz_: Kristof_HT: Then MIT Scheme is fine.
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2017-02-06T00:34:03Z Kristof_HT: and is anyone here using Sublime Text and knows/remembers hot to marry the two ?
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2017-02-06T00:46:46Z koz_: Kristof_HT: Not a Sublime Text user, but this may help: http://stackoverflow.com/questions/13221293/sublime-text-2-with-mit-scheme
2017-02-06T00:46:53Z koz_: This, of course, assumes you're using Sublime Text 2.
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2017-02-06T00:49:39Z Kristof_HT: thanks koz_   i was reading this one already, but still fighting with sublime
2017-02-06T00:51:07Z koz_: Kristof_HT: I wish you luck.
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2017-02-06T01:04:08Z Kristof_HT: got it to work - now the fun part....
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2017-02-06T03:26:49Z Riastradh: rudybot: eval (- (char->integer #\0) (bitwise-andc2 #x7f (char->integer #\O)))
2017-02-06T03:26:53Z rudybot: Riastradh: your sandbox is ready
2017-02-06T03:26:53Z rudybot: Riastradh: error: bitwise-andc2: undefined; <NEWLINE>  cannot reference an identifier before its definition <NEWLINE>   in module: 'program
2017-02-06T03:27:01Z Riastradh: rudybot: eval (- (char->integer #\0) (bitwise-and #x7f (bitwise-not (char->integer #\O))))
2017-02-06T03:27:01Z rudybot: Riastradh: ; Value: 0
2017-02-06T03:27:07Z Riastradh: Cute, isn't it?
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2017-02-06T05:10:24Z koz_: Whee, back to daily bug reports instead of daily PRs... :(
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2017-02-06T09:59:43Z mysqlsper: how does scheme deal with shadowing of variables? Say you have a nested function, and it has an x argument - as does the enclosing function. I prefer disallowing shadowing, if possible.
2017-02-06T10:00:33Z ecraven: mysqlsper: it's not possible
2017-02-06T10:00:39Z ecraven: you can shadow everything in Scheme
2017-02-06T10:00:52Z mysqlsper: is that common in lisp's?
2017-02-06T10:01:08Z ecraven: (let ((if (open-input-file "/tmp/foo.scm"))) ....) means if in ... will *not* be the if you know, but some input port
2017-02-06T10:01:34Z mysqlsper: that's insane :)
2017-02-06T10:01:49Z mysqlsper: i there was a "redefine" keyword, maybe
2017-02-06T10:01:57Z mysqlsper: i'd accept it
2017-02-06T10:02:02Z ecraven: mysqlsper: there *are* no keywords in scheme
2017-02-06T10:02:10Z ecraven: only bindings to identifiers
2017-02-06T10:02:20Z ecraven: if is *not* a keyword in Scheme. read the R7RS
2017-02-06T10:02:25Z mysqlsper: right, i'm just saying, this looks like a massive source of bugs
2017-02-06T10:02:35Z mysqlsper: on scale
2017-02-06T10:02:41Z mysqlsper: good to know, thanks
2017-02-06T10:02:45Z wasamasa: broken scoping is a massive source of bugs
2017-02-06T10:02:52Z wasamasa: see every popular language ever
2017-02-06T10:03:01Z ecraven: I don't think it is. There's nothing preventing your implementation from warning you if you do this, though
2017-02-06T10:03:11Z mysqlsper: wasamasa: yeah, shadowing should be banned
2017-02-06T10:03:22Z mysqlsper: but allowed with explicitness
2017-02-06T10:03:23Z ecraven: shadowing is broken scoping?
2017-02-06T10:03:26Z wasamasa: mysqlsper: that's not what I said
2017-02-06T10:03:33Z mysqlsper: that's what i said though
2017-02-06T10:03:37Z wasamasa: mysqlsper: look at python's local/nonlocal/global mess
2017-02-06T10:03:43Z mysqlsper: yeah, horrible
2017-02-06T10:03:56Z wasamasa: they allow referring to the outer thing with the same name
2017-02-06T10:04:03Z wasamasa: do you really want that?
2017-02-06T10:04:05Z mysqlsper: no
2017-02-06T10:04:27Z ecraven: in practice, I've never found this to be a problem, if you don't use strange macros, it is rather obvious where a name is bound
2017-02-06T10:04:38Z wasamasa: or look at ruby's many imperfect takes on emulating lambda
2017-02-06T10:04:51Z wasamasa: some even introduce new identifiers that persist after the scope of the thing exited!
2017-02-06T10:04:58Z wasamasa: that's bonkers
2017-02-06T10:05:01Z mysqlsper: ecraven: i disagree, it's not obvious in any non-trivial system. well known source of bugs, shadowing
2017-02-06T10:05:23Z mysqlsper: wasamasa: so dynamic scoping gone wrong?
2017-02-06T10:05:47Z wasamasa: mysqlsper: I dunno really, but I avoid them for that reason when writing ruby
2017-02-06T10:06:04Z ecraven: mysqlsper: have you ever used Scheme in a non-trivial system? or is this a general discussion not related to an actually observed problem with Scheme?
2017-02-06T10:06:17Z mysqlsper: ecraven: general observation about shadowing
2017-02-06T10:06:18Z wasamasa: anyway, my point is that gimping a language by not getting scoping right is rather terrible
2017-02-06T10:06:45Z mysqlsper: no, just discussing this particular point. scheme looks like a beauty overall
2017-02-06T10:07:18Z ecraven: hehe, it has its warts, but they are far fewer than most other languages, imho
2017-02-06T10:07:24Z wasamasa: rudybot: eval (begin (define (foo x) (let ((x (+ x 1))) x)) (foo 1))
2017-02-06T10:07:25Z rudybot: wasamasa: your sandbox is ready
2017-02-06T10:07:25Z rudybot: wasamasa: ; Value: 2
2017-02-06T10:07:51Z ecraven: wasamasa: I understand that this can look intimidating to people who don't know Scheme well
2017-02-06T10:08:32Z wasamasa: ecraven: well, they should get a copy of SICP and work through it :>
2017-02-06T10:08:51Z ecraven: mysqlsper: did you find any research that shows that shadowing is a problem?
2017-02-06T10:09:03Z mysqlsper: ecraven: 20 years of experience
2017-02-06T10:09:08Z wasamasa: mysqlsper: so, what exactly is problematic about the above example?
2017-02-06T10:09:13Z wasamasa: mysqlsper: or if you can't say, give me one
2017-02-06T10:09:26Z wasamasa: mysqlsper: this reads more like FUD than anything else
2017-02-06T10:09:30Z mysqlsper: ok
2017-02-06T10:09:59Z mysqlsper: and what would be the problem of disallowing shadowing?
2017-02-06T10:10:08Z wasamasa: it gimps the language for no real reason
2017-02-06T10:10:22Z mysqlsper: lol
2017-02-06T10:10:32Z wasamasa: for instance, if you ban use of set! (see clojure for an example of this), shadowing is the only way of giving the binding a new value
2017-02-06T10:11:03Z wasamasa: the other way of getting around this is binding a temporary function and calling/recursing into it
2017-02-06T10:11:18Z wasamasa: which depending on how you argue about it, breaks that arbitrary rule
2017-02-06T10:12:14Z wasamasa: in other words, I call your 20 years of experience irrelevant when it comes to actually using scheme
2017-02-06T10:12:21Z mysqlsper: nope
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2017-02-06T10:12:36Z ecraven: wasamasa: now you've insulted him/her
2017-02-06T10:12:40Z ecraven: ;)
2017-02-06T10:12:46Z wasamasa .oO(I can't remember a single time someone boasting about their 20 years of experience made a valuable argument)
2017-02-06T10:13:08Z ecraven: hm.. interesting, but I don't remember even one time when I was hit by going for the wrong binding location with shadowed names
2017-02-06T10:13:21Z wasamasa: well, it may be confusing if you use set!
2017-02-06T10:13:50Z ecraven: you shouldn't use that anyway :P
2017-02-06T10:15:12Z wasamasa: funny, they're registered as lisper
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2017-02-06T10:16:39Z mysqlsper: why is that funny wasamasa ?
2017-02-06T10:16:52Z wasamasa: mysqlsper: ask #lisp about it
2017-02-06T10:17:10Z mysqlsper: no
2017-02-06T10:17:17Z wasamasa: they'll count it as affiliation to CL
2017-02-06T10:17:27Z mysqlsper: "funny"
2017-02-06T10:17:50Z wasamasa: because according to them, CL is the only thing that may be legitimately called lisp
2017-02-06T10:19:44Z mysqlsper: anyway, since my 20 years of experience is irrelevant, I did some googling. Lots of examples and proof that it a problem. Github issues, etc. https://randomascii.wordpress.com/2013/06/24/two-years-and-thousands-of-bugs-of-static-analysis/ (>= 2% of bugs)
2017-02-06T10:20:02Z mysqlsper: not saying this is a problem in Scheme AT ALL, was just asking what Scheme did
2017-02-06T10:20:10Z wasamasa: it discourages using set!
2017-02-06T10:20:14Z CORDIC: wasamasa: It must be joke, just like ``20 years of programming''.
2017-02-06T10:20:16Z mysqlsper: ahah
2017-02-06T10:20:27Z wasamasa: and as you typically program in a functional way, it's a non-issue in practice
2017-02-06T10:20:38Z mysqlsper: wasamasa: that's a good reason
2017-02-06T10:21:02Z mysqlsper: wasamasa: that said, how come I see "set!" all over the place in every example I see?
2017-02-06T10:22:13Z ecraven: just call it LISP in #lisp, you'll have fun :P
2017-02-06T10:22:17Z wasamasa: uhuh
2017-02-06T10:22:38Z wasamasa: I haven't done that yet, come to think of it
2017-02-06T10:22:54Z wasamasa: mysqlsper: I wonder just what exactly you're looking at then
2017-02-06T10:22:54Z mysqlsper: do it !
2017-02-06T10:23:03Z ecraven: mysqlsper: have you looked at SICP? or any of the other books? they don't promote set! a lot
2017-02-06T10:23:18Z ecraven: I don't see a lot of mutation in most of the code I see
2017-02-06T10:23:28Z mysqlsper: ecraven: i am looking at real world examples, not what SICP promotes
2017-02-06T10:23:38Z wasamasa: I'm also interested in real-world scheme
2017-02-06T10:23:41Z wasamasa: so fess up
2017-02-06T10:24:10Z ecraven: mysqlsper: the 2% in that report come from looking at *one* example
2017-02-06T10:24:18Z mysqlsper: so it may be worse
2017-02-06T10:24:26Z mysqlsper: at any rate, that was an example
2017-02-06T10:24:38Z wasamasa: the example is also C++
2017-02-06T10:24:39Z mysqlsper: wasamasa: do you count Racket code as Scheme code?
2017-02-06T10:24:40Z ecraven: "... the percentage of variable shadowing that causes bugs is far higher. I don’t have any statistics ..."
2017-02-06T10:24:55Z wasamasa: and the person mostly blogs about chrome
2017-02-06T10:24:55Z mysqlsper: wasamasa: sigh, it's a general observation about shadowing. Not saying it's a problem in scheme.
2017-02-06T10:25:09Z wasamasa: mysqlsper: I want less FUD and more tangible examples
2017-02-06T10:25:11Z mysqlsper: so racket is a scheme?
2017-02-06T10:25:17Z ecraven: it's close enough
2017-02-06T10:25:19Z wasamasa: not really, but feel free to show off
2017-02-06T10:25:39Z mysqlsper: wasamasa: you have made up your mind. Sounds like you're straight of uni, reiterating what the professor said.
2017-02-06T10:25:43Z mysqlsper: which can be safely ignored
2017-02-06T10:25:58Z ecraven: mysqlsper: that example he showed [bool result = Shazam();] is not even possible to write in Scheme
2017-02-06T10:26:14Z mysqlsper: ecraven: you're not getting my point, but that's fine
2017-02-06T10:26:31Z ecraven: mysqlsper: no, I totally understand that this might be a problem in C++, but I don't agree that it is in Lisps
2017-02-06T10:26:37Z ecraven: of course, a lot depends on your coding style
2017-02-06T10:26:50Z wasamasa: let's invent a dialect of scheme that allows writing as bug-prone code as in C++
2017-02-06T10:27:06Z ecraven: well, can't you do that already in normal Scheme?
2017-02-06T10:27:13Z ecraven: (not standard, but any implementation)
2017-02-06T10:27:15Z wasamasa: no srfi-1, no higher-order procedures, nothing
2017-02-06T10:27:15Z mysqlsper: anywhooo, random examples of set! in racket code is easy enough to find on github :)
2017-02-06T10:27:17Z ecraven: most have an ffi, to get segfaults
2017-02-06T10:27:20Z mysqlsper: language:racket "set!"
2017-02-06T10:27:22Z mysqlsper: oh my
2017-02-06T10:27:25Z wasamasa: mysqlsper: yeah, but is it all over the place?
2017-02-06T10:27:30Z mysqlsper: sure
2017-02-06T10:28:03Z wasamasa: keep in mind that the implementation of racket and usage of racket in libraries and applications are again two different kinds of code
2017-02-06T10:28:11Z mysqlsper: more excuses
2017-02-06T10:28:16Z ecraven: mysqlsper: language:racket "foo" gives about 1/6th as many results as set!
2017-02-06T10:28:26Z ecraven: I don't think a github search is the right way to quantify the use of set!
2017-02-06T10:28:28Z wasamasa: it's like taking the code style of gcc as example what typical C++ looks like
2017-02-06T10:28:29Z ecraven: (or anything else)
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2017-02-06T10:28:33Z mysqlsper: more excuses
2017-02-06T10:28:38Z mysqlsper: anyhoo, have a good one
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2017-02-06T10:33:26Z wasamasa: not like github search makes anything of "set!"
2017-02-06T10:33:33Z wasamasa: it just ignores anything not alphanumeric
2017-02-06T10:33:48Z wasamasa: so you get lots of results for set predicates and constructors
2017-02-06T10:34:31Z ecraven: c# disallows shadowing, right? I think I ran into that some time ago, and didn't like it
2017-02-06T10:34:41Z wasamasa: hum, does it?
2017-02-06T10:35:13Z ecraven: I remember using some c++-like language that disallowed defining local variables of the same name as parameters
2017-02-06T10:35:42Z jonaslund: java has that i think
2017-02-06T10:35:52Z wasamasa: I recall having an odd interaction in chuck where I was allowed to reuse a local variable, but the previous value wasn't restored
2017-02-06T10:36:01Z wasamasa: something for-loop-like
2017-02-06T10:36:14Z wasamasa: I ended up rewriting the code
2017-02-06T10:37:46Z wasamasa: if C is about freedom to do anything at the cost of safety, I reckon scheme is freedom about solving problems in any imaginable way
2017-02-06T10:38:07Z ecraven: some day, it would be nice to have a default API for scheme implementations that analyses a given piece of code, and exports what is bound where, so that an arbitrary UI could show that information
2017-02-06T10:38:19Z wasamasa: I wouldn't be surprised if racket had that
2017-02-06T10:38:31Z ecraven: yea, but I want to use it with geiser and mit or chibi
2017-02-06T10:38:39Z ecraven: something like libclang, in a way
2017-02-06T10:38:46Z ecraven: to analyse what an implementation actually does with code
2017-02-06T10:38:57Z ecraven: show macro expansion step-wise, all those things
2017-02-06T10:39:19Z wasamasa: hm
2017-02-06T10:40:31Z jonaslund: ecraven: time for a new hobby project? :)
2017-02-06T10:40:46Z ecraven: jonaslund: ha, I have way too many of those already :-/
2017-02-06T10:40:58Z ecraven: some day, I'll start on that Scheme implementation I've been thinking about for years
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2017-02-06T10:41:17Z jonaslund: any special characteristics of that ?
2017-02-06T10:41:20Z jonaslund: (impl)
2017-02-06T10:42:27Z ecraven: well, I'd like to have an implementation that compiles everything on the fly all the time ;) so everything is jitted, if you redefine a function, it is recompiled (and all places where it was inlined are recompiled too). if you redefine a macro, everything using that macro is recompile.
2017-02-06T10:42:42Z ecraven: and of course it should do decent type reconstruction, to get better performance
2017-02-06T10:42:46Z ecraven: all those trivial things :P
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2017-02-06T10:47:29Z jonaslund: hmmm
2017-02-06T10:47:59Z jonaslund: I hope i get some time to finish that JIT hack i started earlier
2017-02-06T10:49:26Z koz_: jonaslund: Java allows shadowing just fine. In fact, it's commonly-used (i.e. idiomatic) in constructors.
2017-02-06T10:49:36Z jonaslund: from my experience though (wrote a type inference system for JS) the biggest wins will be disposing of as much as possible of dynamic typing in "hot" paths
2017-02-06T10:49:37Z koz_: Leading to the (in my opinion idiotic) 'this.foo = foo' convention.
2017-02-06T10:49:44Z ecraven: also, while I'm at it, I'd like to write it so it doesn't use anything but the kernel, so it could be run entirely on system calls .. but of course, sometimes you want to interface to C, so some ffi would be nice.. and there are c++ libraries, so if there were a way to interface directly with C++ (like clasp) that'd be great too
2017-02-06T10:49:59Z wasamasa: ecraven: for that you'd need to write it in C++
2017-02-06T10:50:02Z jonaslund: koz_: yeah on the type/function level. inside functions though i don't think you can override it
2017-02-06T10:50:07Z ecraven: jonaslund: I've heard that erlang does well with module-internal functions, because it knows all call instances
2017-02-06T10:50:11Z wasamasa: ecraven: interop with C++ makes for even more C++
2017-02-06T10:50:17Z jonaslund: koz_: even lambdas in a function cannot have same named variables as the enclosing function
2017-02-06T10:50:22Z ecraven: wasamasa: or implement whatever the compilers use for name mangling, I presume?
2017-02-06T10:50:55Z wasamasa: ecraven: I dunno, I just read from time to time about ABI breakage and other fun stuff in C++ land
2017-02-06T10:50:57Z koz_: jonaslund: Welp, why am I not surprised that Java can't even be consistent *there*.
2017-02-06T10:51:10Z koz_: (for example, Java lambdas cannot close over non-final variables)
2017-02-06T10:51:10Z jonaslund: i think LuaJIT has one of the most elegant C bindings
2017-02-06T10:51:33Z koz_: (however, in practice, it doesn't matter, because boxed values are still mutable under final, because reasons)
2017-02-06T10:53:33Z jonaslund: C++ bindings should be done with C++
2017-02-06T10:54:17Z jonaslund: And they can actually be quite painless since C++11 since you can do a lot of type caluclations thanks to var-arg template resolution
2017-02-06T10:55:17Z ecraven: jonaslund: well, that forces you to write wrappers for a lot of things :-/ Qt is probably the prime example
2017-02-06T10:57:37Z jonaslund: hmm
2017-02-06T10:58:56Z jonaslund: ecraven: plain function bindings shouldn't be too bad. but i guess QT has a lot of cross-language object references?
2017-02-06T10:59:18Z ecraven: yea, but objects, multiple inheritance, templates etc.. :-/
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2017-02-06T20:04:22Z lmat: I'm looking at some code, and I see the function, "first". What would that do?
2017-02-06T20:04:26Z lmat: (map first list)
2017-02-06T20:04:42Z lmat: I'm not seeing a definition in my code base...
2017-02-06T20:05:51Z wasamasa: http://srfi.schemers.org/srfi-1/srfi-1.html#first
2017-02-06T20:06:31Z lmat: Thanks!
2017-02-06T20:08:51Z wasamasa: you're welcome
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2017-02-06T21:51:38Z lmat: How do I evaluate a function that doesn't take parameters in guile?
2017-02-06T21:51:40Z lmat: (current-time)
2017-02-06T21:52:04Z lmat: I ran   "current-time" in guile and it says "#<procedure current-time ()>"
2017-02-06T21:52:22Z mikeyhc: (current-time) => $1 = 1486417926
2017-02-06T21:52:25Z mikeyhc: for me
2017-02-06T21:52:42Z lmat: Ah, gotcha!  I needed parentheses.
2017-02-06T21:52:49Z lmat: ...always need parentheses, no matter what the problem...
2017-02-06T21:52:56Z mikeyhc: thats the spirit
2017-02-06T21:53:01Z lmat: mikeyhc: Thanks ^_^
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2017-02-07T09:39:18Z mg: Is there no (filter pred seq) in r7rs small?
2017-02-07T09:47:24Z wasamasa: filter should be a srfi-1 thing
2017-02-07T09:49:04Z mg: wasamasa: aha, thank you :)
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2017-02-07T10:08:23Z mg: Now that I'm at it, is there an (exp x)? that is (expt e x)
2017-02-07T10:09:05Z wasamasa: you'll most certainly have to define that yourself
2017-02-07T10:10:21Z mg: hm, okay. Thanks again :)
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2017-02-07T21:15:18Z lisper: hey
2017-02-07T21:15:23Z lisper: is there a special operator or something like that to access the last evaluated expression?
2017-02-07T21:15:32Z lisper: basically a "what's on top of the stack" function/operator (not repl)
2017-02-07T21:15:53Z wasamasa: picolisp has @ for that
2017-02-07T21:16:12Z mikeyhc: depends on which scheme you are using, some support it, some do not
2017-02-07T21:16:23Z lisper: mit-scheme
2017-02-07T21:16:35Z wasamasa: it's a very cutesy way of writing shorter code
2017-02-07T21:16:58Z lisper: yeah, and to avoid nesting when the parens get... to much :)
2017-02-07T21:17:02Z wasamasa: my absolute favorite is the README on https://github.com/erdg/insanity
2017-02-07T21:17:46Z mikeyhc: I dont think there is one for mit-scheme, but I have only used it in passing
2017-02-07T21:18:11Z lisper: does @ have a name?
2017-02-07T21:18:24Z gnomon: 'snail'
2017-02-07T21:18:42Z gnomon: Sometimes 'friendly li'l squiggly'
2017-02-07T21:18:51Z wasamasa: sobaka (russian: dog)
2017-02-07T21:19:54Z lisper: well, i mean a language level name
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2017-02-07T21:25:51Z lisper: "PicoLisp comes with built-in object oriented extensions"
2017-02-07T21:26:01Z lisper: i'll have to boycott that lisp
2017-02-07T21:26:30Z gwatt: Is it an r6rs thing that @ is used in polar numeric literals
2017-02-07T21:26:41Z gwatt: or is that a custom extension
2017-02-07T21:28:07Z lisper: ,@⟨datum⟩  (from spec)
2017-02-07T21:28:28Z gwatt: nah, that's unquote-splicing.
2017-02-07T21:28:42Z lisper: for complex numbers it's used
2017-02-07T21:29:05Z gwatt: But you can write 1234@5678 and it gives you -512.9839499392625-1122.3205723431752i
2017-02-07T21:29:21Z lisper: aye
2017-02-07T21:29:38Z lisper: make-polar 1234 5678 does the same thing
2017-02-07T21:30:45Z lisper: hoolah! (magnitude 1.1@2.2)
2017-02-07T21:32:19Z wasamasa: anyway, my intention was to demonstrate that what you're asking for is a fairly esoteric language feature
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2017-02-07T21:50:10Z gwatt: I like guile's saved result feature. Any value not captured by a define is bound to a '$resN' identifier where N is an increasing number.
2017-02-07T21:54:05Z gwatt: err, not '$resN' just '$N'
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2017-02-07T21:56:29Z gwatt: and it captures each value separately if there are multiple
2017-02-07T22:01:34Z jcowan: gwatt: Polar notation has been a part of Scheme standards for a long time.
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2017-02-07T22:04:35Z gwatt: jcowan: ok, cool
2017-02-07T22:07:14Z jcowan: Pure, which shares Scheme's numeric tower with a few differences in notation, actually has separate representations for rectangular and polar complex numbers, which Scheme standards allow but no Scheme AFAIK actually does.
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2017-02-07T23:06:15Z Fare: Are there good libraries to post on Usenet from Scheme?
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2017-02-07T23:12:28Z wasamasa: people post to usenet?
2017-02-07T23:14:35Z Fare: Maybe I should focus on mailing-lists, first.
2017-02-07T23:16:18Z wasamasa: I'd just shell out to msmtp
2017-02-07T23:16:40Z wasamasa: as I haven't ever used usenet, I dunno how hard it would actually be
2017-02-07T23:18:02Z pjb: Fare: https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc3977  How much library code do you need to do that???
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2017-02-07T23:20:20Z Riastradh: Fare: Edwin has an nntp library.
2017-02-07T23:20:43Z Riastradh: I used to use Edwin's SNR (`Simple News Reader') some years ago.
2017-02-07T23:20:48Z Riastradh: Can't remember whether I ever posted with it.
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2017-02-07T23:21:31Z Riastradh: It is no doubt far more complex than necessary for just posting.
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2017-02-07T23:22:15Z Riastradh: *poof*
2017-02-07T23:22:46Z wasamasa: and like that, he was gone
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2017-02-07T23:29:53Z dTal: FareTower = Fare ?
2017-02-07T23:30:23Z FareTower: yes
2017-02-07T23:30:50Z FareTower: fallback name when my name is in use because of dangling connection
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2017-02-07T23:31:09Z wasamasa: clever
2017-02-07T23:31:57Z dTal: interesting choice, most would go for Fare_ or Fare2
2017-02-07T23:32:18Z Fare: I started with FareWell, but Tower was more appropriate to my reflective tastes.
2017-02-07T23:32:50Z dTal: ohh NOW I get it
2017-02-07T23:33:09Z DKordic: :)
2017-02-07T23:33:51Z Fare: what about sending spam using Scheme? That CFP is not going to spread itself.
2017-02-07T23:34:13Z dTal: see if you can make a quine-spam
2017-02-07T23:34:30Z dTal: spams its own source code
2017-02-07T23:34:34Z Fare: Call for Papers: Scheme and Functional Programming Workshop 2017 http://scheme2017.namin.org  Submission deadline May 26th AoE. Workshop September 3rd, co-located with ICFP 2017 in Oxford UK.
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2017-02-08T09:21:09Z koz_: Another day, another PR, again. :)
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2017-02-08T14:46:27Z tiket: hi
2017-02-08T14:46:36Z TCZ: cześć - hi
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2017-02-08T14:46:57Z tiket: say i have three nested lambdas and the inner one access a parameter in the outer (a free variable)
2017-02-08T14:47:12Z tiket: how is this implemented? does it follow two environment "links"?
2017-02-08T14:47:22Z tiket: or does it cache free variables locally?
2017-02-08T14:47:53Z tiket: i see slowdowns when using free variables, i suppose the reason is that it reads by following static links
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2017-02-08T15:15:21Z qu1j0t3: tiket: The book "programming in scheme", abelson and eisenberg, helped me a lot to understand environments. If you want actual implementation details, hm, well there's a lot of source code, or you could check Dybvig's papers ... don't know if there are more recent publications
2017-02-08T15:16:22Z tiket: thanks
2017-02-08T15:22:05Z renopt: tiket: purposefully left implementation-defined, there's lots of ways to do it, each with different trade-offs
2017-02-08T15:24:19Z renopt: some interpreters do that; generate an environment frame for each call, and keep links to previously defined environment frames, which then are followed when looking up symbols
2017-02-08T15:26:20Z renopt: compilers generally implement closures as a vector which is allocated and filled in when the function is defined, then references to closed symbols inside the function are replaced which indexes into that vector
2017-02-08T15:27:12Z renopt: http://scheme2006.cs.uchicago.edu/11-ghuloum.pdf <- this is a good read if you're curious about compiling scheme
2017-02-08T15:28:02Z renopt: s/which indexes/with indexes/
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2017-02-08T15:36:49Z tiket: renopt: generate an environment frame means a stack frame i guess? surely looking up bindings in parent environments are static links, not following the call graph
2017-02-08T15:37:08Z tiket: renopt: thanks for the link btw, look interesting
2017-02-08T15:40:49Z renopt: implemented as a stack but not necessarily following the call graph, yeah, but the environment would be dynamically allocated, not static
2017-02-08T15:41:30Z renopt: eg. since environments can outlive the functions the were created with
2017-02-08T15:42:33Z tiket: yes, i'm talking about the symbol lookup logic which must follow the rules of the compile/read-time environment defintion
2017-02-08T15:43:07Z tiket: so you might end up with "a is free and found two levels up at index 5", hence, there must be a static link somewhere unrelated to call graph
2017-02-08T15:43:21Z tiket: consider a function returning a lambda for instance, which is called way down the line
2017-02-08T15:45:24Z renopt: oh, right, could do it that way
2017-02-08T15:49:56Z renopt: wouldn't be very efficient though, you would end up with more objects to GC and more indirect pointer dereferences than a 'flat' closure
2017-02-08T15:51:36Z renopt: buuut, if you had lots of gigantic closures, that would probably be preferable to copying everything for each new closure, hmm
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2017-02-08T15:57:18Z tiket: dunno
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2017-02-08T18:03:38Z koz_: Hiya justinethier - thanks for merging my PR!
2017-02-08T18:04:07Z justinethier: no problem, thanks for the SRFI's :)
2017-02-08T18:04:34Z justinethier: Hey, I don't know if you care or not, but I noticed you're not listed on the contributors tab after merging your changes
2017-02-08T18:04:56Z justinethier: I think you might need to setup your email address in git and/or github?
2017-02-08T18:05:16Z koz_: I have it set up on git, but possibly not Github.
2017-02-08T18:05:25Z koz_: I'll look into that - thanks!
2017-02-08T18:06:15Z koz_: I'll probably do some documentation PRs next - I think I've got enough SRFIs for the moment. :P
2017-02-08T18:06:27Z justinethier: you're welsome... just noticed it and was scratching my head
2017-02-08T18:06:32Z justinethier: *welcome, even
2017-02-08T18:06:33Z koz_: Also, for the Cyclone implementation SRFI 69, what kind of hash table approach did you take?
2017-02-08T18:06:44Z justinethier: that would be great, thank you
2017-02-08T18:07:03Z koz_: How's stuff on the GC changes you wanted to make going?
2017-02-08T18:07:09Z justinethier: 69 uses the reference implementation from the SRFI
2017-02-08T18:07:38Z koz_: Ah, OK.
2017-02-08T18:07:48Z justinethier: don't think there were many changes
2017-02-08T18:07:50Z koz_: (until I realized we already had it, that was my *next* goal)
2017-02-08T18:07:58Z justinethier: yes :)
2017-02-08T18:08:18Z justinethier: there is another SRFI later on that implements hash tables, unfortunately I discovered it after 69 was already in place
2017-02-08T18:08:26Z koz_: I've looked at them all.
2017-02-08T18:08:31Z koz_: Personally, I prefer 69.
2017-02-08T18:08:32Z justinethier: ok
2017-02-08T18:08:44Z justinethier: I had experience with that one so went with it
2017-02-08T18:08:54Z koz_: It's fairly coherent, and the intermediate hash tables SRFI can be built on top of it if we want it.
2017-02-08T18:09:18Z justinethier: The GC changes are done for now. I saw a couple of things I want to revisit there in the future when testing benchmarks, but nothing critical for the moment
2017-02-08T18:09:25Z justinethier: ok
2017-02-08T18:09:30Z koz_: So does that mean bignum work can commence? :p
2017-02-08T18:09:43Z justinethier: :)
2017-02-08T18:10:26Z koz_: I ask because this is the number one thing obstructing my use of Cyclone for my research code.
2017-02-08T18:11:44Z justinethier: well, I have been thinking about what to do next
2017-02-08T18:11:52Z koz_: Also - should cyclone-bootstrap have .scm and .slds for SRFI 121?
2017-02-08T18:12:00Z justinethier: I think bignums are the next big task, yes
2017-02-08T18:12:08Z koz_: (I just pulled from master, and saw that they were included)
2017-02-08T18:12:13Z justinethier: yes - I added them :)
2017-02-08T18:12:21Z koz_: Ah - I thought only the .cs were needed.
2017-02-08T18:12:25Z justinethier: but if you want to, next time you can include them.
2017-02-08T18:12:34Z justinethier: well
2017-02-08T18:12:37Z koz_: (I amended the bootstrap target with that assumption)
2017-02-08T18:12:47Z justinethier: I saw that, thanks
2017-02-08T18:13:09Z justinethier: the sld needs to be installed so dependency information is available to the compiler for the SRFI
2017-02-08T18:13:34Z koz_: Ah, I see.
2017-02-08T18:13:54Z justinethier: I am wondering now about the scm file... it may not be necessary
2017-02-08T18:14:15Z justinethier: still, it doesn't hurt to include it for now
2017-02-08T18:14:23Z koz_: I'm not completely sure, hence my question. OK, thanks!
2017-02-08T18:14:32Z justinethier: no problem
2017-02-08T18:14:33Z koz_: But yeah, in terms of bignums, are you reasonably happy to use GMP?
2017-02-08T18:14:39Z justinethier: i think so
2017-02-08T18:14:48Z koz_: Fair enough - I'm pretty happy with that too.
2017-02-08T18:15:01Z koz_: I think there's going to come a time when I'm gonna need to learn the Cyclone internals properly. :P
2017-02-08T18:15:36Z justinethier: its all there when you're ready :)
2017-02-08T18:15:49Z justinethier: but it wasn't written in a day... those things take a bit of time
2017-02-08T18:16:16Z koz_: Yeah, I can imagine. I'm reasonably conversant in C (I mean, I maintain awesome-c after all), but I've never really worked with any C codebase of that size.
2017-02-08T18:17:07Z justinethier: well on the C side things aren't too bad
2017-02-08T18:17:32Z justinethier: the only weird thing is cheney on the MTA which makes the code a bit strange
2017-02-08T18:17:55Z koz_: Is that the whole 'write everything in CPS' thing?
2017-02-08T18:18:35Z justinethier: yes
2017-02-08T18:18:57Z justinethier: basically if you allocate anything on the stack you can't return or else the stack memory would be corrupted
2017-02-08T18:19:07Z justinethier: So you have to use a macro to "return" instead - https://github.com/justinethier/cyclone/blob/master/runtime.c#L1970
2017-02-08T18:19:49Z koz_: That explains the way the inline C is written.
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2017-02-08T18:19:57Z justinethier: Yup
2017-02-08T18:20:49Z justinethier: The gc.c stuff is a bit hairy, there's a document that explains how that works
2017-02-08T18:21:42Z koz_: For me, it'd be mostly to help get bignum support into Cyclone faster, so I'm not sure how much of the GC stuff I'd need to understand.
2017-02-08T18:22:01Z justinethier: it should be plug and chug on the GC
2017-02-08T18:22:55Z justinethier: on the C side the only complicated part (I think) is detecting integer overflow in the arithmetic ops and converting to bignums. and getting numeric operations to support bignum
2017-02-08T18:23:33Z koz_: I think we agreed that the easiest way would be to write new ops that do this checking, leave the old ones, then use them for the fixnum SRFI support. :)
2017-02-08T18:23:40Z justinethier: right
2017-02-08T18:23:43Z justinethier: stupid question but bignum is only integers, correct?
2017-02-08T18:23:53Z koz_: On the GMP side, or the Scheme side?
2017-02-08T18:23:59Z koz_: Or on the 'I really need this' side?
2017-02-08T18:24:48Z justinethier: I suppose on the scheme side
2017-02-08T18:24:55Z justinethier: I know GMP can do quite a bit
2017-02-08T18:25:15Z koz_: GMP has bigdecimal-type support.
2017-02-08T18:25:26Z koz_: On the Scheme side, bignums would include inexact ones too, I think.
2017-02-08T18:25:46Z koz_: (also rationals, if they're part of Cyclone, would need bignums for the numerator and denominator)
2017-02-08T18:26:30Z justinethier: bigloo seems to only use integers, but that is just one scheme: https://www-sop.inria.fr/indes/fp/Bigloo/doc/bigloo-7.html#g3751
2017-02-08T18:26:47Z justinethier: ok
2017-02-08T18:26:58Z justinethier: rational support needs to be added as well...
2017-02-08T18:27:08Z justinethier: probably not in this first iteration though
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2017-02-08T18:28:00Z koz_: Fair enough.
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2017-02-08T18:29:19Z koz_: In that case, I will start making documentation PRs, and probably writing more tests.
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2017-02-08T18:29:42Z justinethier: ok
2017-02-08T18:29:51Z justinethier: I need to start thinking more about how bignums will work
2017-02-08T18:30:30Z justinethier: I'm thinking about having a release soon for everything up to this point, then branching for bignums
2017-02-08T18:31:07Z justinethier: probably will start slow adding them to the type system and reader, then picking up numeric operations from there
2017-02-08T18:31:28Z koz_: Yeah - three SRFIs seems release-worthy.
2017-02-08T18:31:41Z justinethier: agreed
2017-02-08T18:33:16Z justinethier: By the way, I see https://github.com/justinethier/cyclone/issues/174
2017-02-08T18:33:49Z justinethier: That could be a lot of work :)
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2017-02-08T18:34:29Z koz_: Yes, Rome wasn't built in a day either.
2017-02-08T18:34:34Z justinethier: anyway, thanks for entering it. this is something that needs to be thought about for the future
2017-02-08T18:34:36Z justinethier: yup
2017-02-08T18:34:40Z koz_: It can wait until after bignums, at least.
2017-02-08T18:34:52Z justinethier: yeah
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2017-02-08T18:35:33Z justinethier: well, what kind of arithmetic do you need? are you doing bignum integer operations or do you need rationals?
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2017-02-08T18:36:14Z koz_: Just integers.
2017-02-08T18:36:24Z koz_: I don't need rationals or big decimals for the stuff I'm personally working on.
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2017-02-08T18:38:14Z justinethier: ok, good to know
2017-02-08T18:39:34Z justinethier: by the way I just saw your response here: https://github.com/justinethier/cyclone/issues/103#issuecomment-278409011
2017-02-08T18:39:58Z koz_: What do you think?
2017-02-08T18:40:49Z justinethier: this is a whole discussion in and of itself
2017-02-08T18:41:15Z koz_: Definitely - but one worth having, I think.
2017-02-08T18:41:21Z justinethier: yes
2017-02-08T18:41:34Z koz_: (by that I don't necessarily mean *right this second*)
2017-02-08T18:41:38Z justinethier: :)
2017-02-08T18:41:47Z justinethier: i hear you
2017-02-08T18:41:49Z koz_: I understand that there's a lot of ways to do this stuff, and my approach might not be quite the same as someone else's.
2017-02-08T18:41:55Z jcowan: Most Schemes don't have arbitrary precision floats.
2017-02-08T18:42:04Z koz_: jcowan: Really?
2017-02-08T18:42:07Z jcowan: Yes.
2017-02-08T18:42:22Z koz_: That's news to me - although I don't really run into this ... ever.
2017-02-08T18:42:36Z justinethier: koz_: let me think about it, we can discuss in good time. i appreciate you getting the ball moving on concurrency though
2017-02-08T18:42:45Z koz_: justinethier: And parallelism! :)
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2017-02-08T18:42:53Z justinethier: yes :)
2017-02-08T18:42:59Z koz_: But sure, take all the time you need - ultimately, a lot of the heavy lifting for such a thing would come from you.
2017-02-08T18:43:05Z koz_: (at least until I have enough grasp of the internals)
2017-02-08T18:43:07Z justinethier: ok
2017-02-08T18:43:20Z koz_: We're lucky that we have libck to lean on for this stuff.
2017-02-08T18:43:34Z koz_: (since it has some *very* useful stuff in it, regardless of what approach we take)
2017-02-08T18:43:56Z koz_: From where I'm standing, I reckon something like Guile's fibers might be an agreeable middle-ground.
2017-02-08T18:44:04Z justinethier: yes - well, some of that was very useful for the GC
2017-02-08T18:44:10Z koz_: Then I can just use it to implement ... well, all the things I want.
2017-02-08T18:44:17Z justinethier: haha :)
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2017-02-08T18:45:51Z justinethier: are the fibers green threads? or can you schedule them on top of a thread pool for true concurrency?
2017-02-08T18:46:03Z justinethier: jcowan: so generally, bignums in scheme are large integers then?
2017-02-08T18:46:12Z koz_: justinethier: I'm not 100% sure about that, sorry.
2017-02-08T18:46:18Z justinethier: koz_: its ok
2017-02-08T18:46:20Z koz_: I can look into it though.
2017-02-08T18:46:34Z koz_: I provided the links so that we can both be on the same page when discussing it all.
2017-02-08T18:46:37Z justinethier: https://www.golang-book.com/books/intro/10 - Goroutines are lightweight and we can easily create thousands of them.
2017-02-08T18:46:41Z justinethier: sure
2017-02-08T18:47:04Z koz_: I think fibers are *meant* to be similar to goroutines. Andy blogged about fibers a few times - let me see if I can dig up some links for you.
2017-02-08T18:47:23Z justinethier: ok
2017-02-08T18:47:38Z justinethier: if you find anything you feel free to put it in the ticket
2017-02-08T18:47:50Z koz_: justinethier: https://wingolog.org/archives/2016/10/12/an-incomplete-history-of-language-facilities-for-concurrency
2017-02-08T18:48:02Z koz_: That's where he basically explains why he did what he did with fibers.
2017-02-08T18:48:11Z koz_: I can add it to the ticket if that'd help.
2017-02-08T18:49:03Z justinethier: sure
2017-02-08T18:49:09Z justinethier: i think i've seen this article before
2017-02-08T18:49:22Z koz_: This is another, specifically in reference to goroutines: https://wingolog.org/archives/2016/09/20/concurrent-ml-versus-go
2017-02-08T18:50:43Z justinethier: here you go: By default, Fibers will take advantage of all CPU cores available to it.
2017-02-08T18:51:13Z justinethier: this is good stuff
2017-02-08T18:51:27Z koz_: In all honesty, even if (scheme cyclone concurrent) was only a fibers rip-off, I'd be all for it. :P
2017-02-08T18:53:19Z justinethier: yeah
2017-02-08T18:53:26Z justinethier: it's a big effort though
2017-02-08T18:53:44Z koz_: Yeah, of course.
2017-02-08T18:53:50Z koz_: But we can always get to that later.
2017-02-08T18:53:55Z justinethier: yes
2017-02-08T18:53:56Z koz_: (i.e. after bignums and UTF-8 :P)
2017-02-08T18:55:16Z justinethier: don't forget shared libraries either :)
2017-02-08T18:55:23Z justinethier: all in good time
2017-02-08T18:56:30Z koz_: Yep, definitely.
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2017-02-08T18:58:23Z justinethier: I just pasted those links in - those are an important part of this topic
2017-02-08T18:58:51Z koz_: Thanks - you beat me to it.
2017-02-08T18:59:11Z justinethier: sorry about that :)
2017-02-08T19:00:08Z jcowan: justinethier: Bignums are a representation of arbitrarily large integers: basically an integer is a bignum xor a fixnum.
2017-02-08T19:00:49Z jcowan: Ratnums are a representation of rational numbers as a numerator-denominator pair of integers.
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2017-02-08T19:01:11Z koz_: jcowan: Arbitrary-precision integers, to be exact.
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2017-02-08T19:01:16Z koz_: (otherwise, you risk overflow fairly fast)
2017-02-08T19:01:27Z justinethier: so generally a Scheme will coerce fixnums to bignums during certain numeric operations (add, multiply, subtract)
2017-02-08T19:01:44Z justinethier: ok
2017-02-08T19:02:31Z justinethier: jcowan: thanks
2017-02-08T19:02:40Z koz_: justinethier: https://gmplib.org/manual/Rational-Number-Functions.html#Rational-Number-Functions
2017-02-08T19:02:47Z koz_: GMP has ratnums built-in.
2017-02-08T19:03:51Z justinethier: cool
2017-02-08T19:04:01Z justinethier: wouldn't bignums be based on this, though: https://gmplib.org/manual/Integer-Functions.html#Integer-Functions
2017-02-08T19:04:11Z koz_: justinethier: Yeah, basically, those would be bignums.
2017-02-08T19:04:20Z justinethier: ok
2017-02-08T19:04:28Z koz_: But if we're pulling in GMP, and wanted ratnums or bigdecimals, we easily could later add them.
2017-02-08T19:04:39Z justinethier: definitely
2017-02-08T19:04:42Z koz_: (${DEITY} help me, that grammar was awful on my part)
2017-02-08T19:05:09Z justinethier: got you
2017-02-08T19:05:18Z jcowan: Beware that GMP imposes the GPL on you
2017-02-08T19:05:36Z jcowan: you may want to use another library such as Scheme48, Chicken, or Chibi.
2017-02-08T19:05:37Z koz_: jcowan: It's dual-licensed under the LGPL I believe.
2017-02-08T19:05:54Z koz_: (also, LibTomMath is another option)
2017-02-08T19:06:03Z jcowan: Oh, okay, that's new
2017-02-08T19:06:14Z jcowan: I do know about LibTom*.
2017-02-08T19:06:31Z koz_: jcowan: I think LibreOffice recently started using it.
2017-02-08T19:06:35Z justinethier: I admit, I do have some reservations about the GMP licensing
2017-02-08T19:06:43Z koz_: (or at least, I remember it being pulled in as a dependency)
2017-02-08T19:06:59Z justinethier: are there any bignum benchmarks anywhere for these libraries?
2017-02-08T19:07:07Z jcowan: Chicken abandoned it because of license incompatibilities
2017-02-08T19:07:13Z koz_: justinethier: I remember locating a few - I could try and dig them up.
2017-02-08T19:07:21Z justinethier: koz_: that would be good
2017-02-08T19:07:28Z justinethier: jcowan: really?
2017-02-08T19:08:10Z justinethier: https://gmplib.org/ - Since version 6, GMP is distributed under the dual licenses, GNU LGPL v3 and GNU GPL v2.
2017-02-08T19:08:18Z justinethier: maybe that wasn't very long ago
2017-02-08T19:11:49Z jackdaniel: ECL has bundled GMP version from just before the switch (which is licensed under LGPL 2.1+
2017-02-08T19:11:52Z jackdaniel: )
2017-02-08T19:11:56Z jackdaniel: 4.xx I think
2017-02-08T19:12:01Z koz_: jackdaniel: ECL?
2017-02-08T19:12:11Z jackdaniel: not scheme (embeddable common lisp)
2017-02-08T19:12:15Z koz_: jackdaniel: Ah, OK.
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2017-02-08T20:03:22Z jaziz: differences between scheme & lisp?
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2017-02-08T20:07:08Z taylan: jaziz: assuming with lisp you mean common lisp: scheme has one namespace for functions and variables whereas CL has two, scheme has different values for false and end-of-list whereas CL uses 'nil' for both, scheme has more verbose and clear names in its standard libraries whereas CL has gems like 'replacd', scheme has a hygienic macro system whereas CL only has defmacro and gensym, scheme has a
2017-02-08T20:07:08Z taylan: perhaps more splintered community / bunch of implementations
2017-02-08T20:07:13Z taylan: that's some stuff off the top of my head
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2017-02-08T20:07:53Z jaziz: taylan, got it
2017-02-08T20:07:55Z jaziz: thanks
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2017-02-08T20:08:13Z jaziz: just wondering because I'm about to start reading How to Design Programs
2017-02-08T20:08:19Z jaziz: and it uses Scheme
2017-02-08T20:08:25Z taylan: you have a CL background?
2017-02-08T20:08:50Z jaziz: I don't haha
2017-02-08T20:09:03Z jaziz: but I had been meaning to learn a functional PL for a bit now
2017-02-08T20:09:13Z jaziz: I was between haskell and lisp
2017-02-08T20:09:16Z wasamasa: well, you won't be happy with CL then
2017-02-08T20:09:19Z jaziz: had never heard of Scheme
2017-02-08T20:09:31Z wasamasa: lisp is known for being multi-paradigmatic and CL excels at this
2017-02-08T20:09:32Z taylan: scheme nudges the programmer a bit harder towards functional style than CL
2017-02-08T20:09:48Z wasamasa: good luck writing mostly functional code in it
2017-02-08T20:09:59Z taylan: though both can do both...  though CL has a class/object system in its standard whereas in scheme you'll have to rely on implementation-specific features.
2017-02-08T20:10:22Z jaziz: mm
2017-02-08T20:10:36Z wasamasa: this kind of thing works much better in scheme :P
2017-02-08T20:10:37Z jaziz: have any of you read the book?
2017-02-08T20:10:40Z jaziz: HtDP?
2017-02-08T20:10:51Z taylan: not me, I only read half of SICP
2017-02-08T20:10:56Z wasamasa: I've had a lecturer who did a wild mixture of SICP and HtDP
2017-02-08T20:10:59Z taylan: (shame on me :P)
2017-02-08T20:11:10Z wasamasa: currently I'm solving SICP exercises in a reading circle
2017-02-08T20:11:21Z jaziz: is sicp a good book, too?
2017-02-08T20:11:22Z wasamasa: because HtDP feels a tad *too* basic
2017-02-08T20:11:34Z jaziz: oh
2017-02-08T20:11:54Z wasamasa: but as it got a second edition, that might have changed meanwhile :D
2017-02-08T20:11:56Z taylan: I heard SICP gets pretty intense towards the end
2017-02-08T20:12:30Z taylan: but it starts out really basic too
2017-02-08T20:12:47Z wasamasa: well, the maths chapter scared lots of people in said reading circle away
2017-02-08T20:13:13Z wasamasa: I'll have solved it completely in a few weeks and then I can finally use lists :D
2017-02-08T20:13:27Z taylan: LOL
2017-02-08T20:13:29Z jaziz: what kind of math does it use
2017-02-08T20:13:31Z jaziz: hahahaha
2017-02-08T20:14:04Z wasamasa: well, university entry level maths
2017-02-08T20:14:15Z jaziz: oh
2017-02-08T20:14:19Z jaziz: so just... what, calc?
2017-02-08T20:14:21Z wasamasa: if you forgot what an integral is, you'll learn how they're approximated
2017-02-08T20:14:25Z wasamasa: pretty much
2017-02-08T20:14:29Z jaziz: oh haha
2017-02-08T20:14:38Z jaziz: not bad, then
2017-02-08T20:14:55Z jaziz: I've heard about some fancy pantsy lambda calculus
2017-02-08T20:15:01Z jaziz: seemed pretty scary
2017-02-08T20:15:08Z jaziz: I was looking for good cs books to read
2017-02-08T20:15:28Z taylan: LC is pretty simple once you wrap your head around how... bare it is.
2017-02-08T20:15:45Z taylan: like, imagine you had a programming language where the *only* data type is functions
2017-02-08T20:16:11Z jaziz: is that not what functional programming is?
2017-02-08T20:16:38Z jaziz: excuse my ignorance, I'm but a newbie
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2017-02-08T20:16:51Z wasamasa: no, it's not about the existence of functions
2017-02-08T20:16:54Z taylan: nah, you really can't program in a sane way without having numbers and strings and such :)
2017-02-08T20:17:08Z jaziz: mm
2017-02-08T20:17:35Z jaziz: anyway, what's SICP like?
2017-02-08T20:17:58Z taylan: like literally in lambda calculus you can't have (using JS syntax for the example)  function(){ return 2 + 3 }  because you don't have numbers :P
2017-02-08T20:18:13Z jaziz: oh
2017-02-08T20:18:15Z jaziz: oh god
2017-02-08T20:18:23Z jaziz: how does one do anything productive with this?
2017-02-08T20:18:27Z taylan: you can only have, like,  function(x){ return function(y){ return x(y) } }
2017-02-08T20:18:28Z jaziz: does it have T/F values?
2017-02-08T20:18:34Z wasamasa: you can still encode numbers though
2017-02-08T20:18:39Z taylan: it *literally* only has functions
2017-02-08T20:18:55Z jaziz: wait, if it only has functions
2017-02-08T20:19:01Z jaziz: then how do you communicate anything?
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2017-02-08T20:19:17Z wasamasa: you pass functions to functions
2017-02-08T20:19:26Z wasamasa: functions can also return functions
2017-02-08T20:19:30Z taylan: you can define a bunch of functions so that you have one that stands for 1, another that stands for 2, and another for 3, and yet another which if you give it the "1" and "2" functions it returns one equivalent to the "3" one, so you've imitated addition
2017-02-08T20:19:56Z taylan: jaziz: lambda calculus is just a mathematical formulation / mental exercise if you will, it's not used for actual programming
2017-02-08T20:20:17Z wasamasa: scheme happens to be the closest language resembling lambda calculus
2017-02-08T20:20:21Z taylan: scheme is like lambda calculus with useful data types and with mutable state
2017-02-08T20:20:37Z jaziz: interesting
2017-02-08T20:20:48Z jaziz: I guess it's good that I'm learning this, then
2017-02-08T20:20:53Z wasamasa: like, let can be desugared to lambdas
2017-02-08T20:20:57Z jaziz: well, as much as HtDP teaches, anyway
2017-02-08T20:21:02Z jaziz: which isn't much, I've heard
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2017-02-08T21:44:28Z lemonpie: IIRC MIT use HtDP for 100 level programming and SICP for 200 level, so it makes sense how each is aimed
2017-02-08T21:45:02Z koz_: lemonpie: I didn't realize MIT still used SICP. I thought they'd moved to smething else now?
2017-02-08T21:45:07Z koz_: (or did you mean 'historically'?)
2017-02-08T21:45:09Z lemonpie: well, 'used' then :P
2017-02-08T21:45:23Z koz_: lemonpie: That... explains a lot, actually.
2017-02-08T21:45:39Z koz_: I was wondering what kinda genii MIT must admit to be able to tackle SICP in their first year.
2017-02-08T21:46:22Z jaziz: I seee
2017-02-08T21:46:25Z lemonpie: CS115 was the course for HtDP
2017-02-08T21:46:51Z lemonpie: oh, that's uwaterloo, still probably pretty much the same course :)
2017-02-08T21:46:55Z koz_: But SICP is *incredibly* cool - I keep revisiting it and finding new things I missed.
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2017-02-08T21:49:24Z jaziz: what do you think a good base would be to have as prerequisite to SICP?
2017-02-08T21:49:41Z koz_: jaziz: Knowing how to program in any language, and the ability to read maths.
2017-02-08T21:49:54Z koz_: Like, seriously, I don't think more than that is really *necessary*, although some stuff would be a bit cryptic.
2017-02-08T21:50:12Z jaziz: agh
2017-02-08T21:50:18Z jaziz: I'm really bad with "cryptic"
2017-02-08T21:50:24Z koz_: jaziz: By the latter, I mean: http://web.stonehill.edu/compsci/history_math/math-read.htm
2017-02-08T21:50:29Z jaziz: I find myself not being able to read past anything I don't understand 100%
2017-02-08T21:50:48Z koz_: jaziz: If you want *that*, it's a bit more involved.
2017-02-08T21:51:17Z jaziz: well, why else do people read things?
2017-02-08T21:51:33Z koz_: jaziz: There are sometimes cases for not needing 100% comprehension of everything in there.
2017-02-08T21:51:50Z koz_: You can implement Newton's square-root-finding method without actually understanding the mathematical basis on which it leans, for instance.
2017-02-08T21:51:50Z jaziz: hm
2017-02-08T21:52:13Z koz_: Likewise, I don't normally dig into the precise proofs of hash function universality when using said hash functions for implementing a hash table.
2017-02-08T21:52:27Z koz_: (it's a case of 'I trust that this works, let me focus on the part I actually care about right now')
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2017-02-08T21:52:32Z jaziz: it could also be because if I'm reading a celebrated book, I wouldn't want to miss anything that it's celebrated *for*
2017-02-08T21:52:46Z koz_: jaziz: That kinda thing, like many maths textbooks, require *multiple* readings.
2017-02-08T21:53:00Z koz_: (as I just mentioned, I'm re-reading SICP for the umpteenth time, and I *still* found something new in it)
2017-02-08T21:53:02Z qu1j0t3: High school math is sufficient)
2017-02-08T21:53:14Z koz_: qu1j0t3: Not from any high school where I'm from. :P
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2017-02-08T21:54:21Z koz_: jaziz: Also worth noting - books tend to be celebrated *because* there is a lot to find in them, more than can be obtained in one reading.
2017-02-08T21:54:56Z jaziz: mm yeah
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2017-02-11T00:48:32Z cojy: is there any scheme other than racket than gives error messages with accurate line:col position
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2017-02-11T06:12:54Z koz_: Yay, new Cyclone release!
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2017-02-11T09:07:02Z wasamasa: cojy: CHICKEN has line numbers in compiled programs, but call traces instead of stack traces
2017-02-11T09:08:01Z jonaslund: call traces kinda makes more sense when you have tail calls also
2017-02-11T09:10:27Z wasamasa: I just find it harder to make sense of them, coming from stack traces in every other programming language
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2017-02-11T11:26:12Z ski: wasamasa : how does a call trace differ from a stack trace, in Chicken ?
2017-02-11T11:30:28Z wasamasa: you get a list of last function calls
2017-02-11T11:31:05Z wasamasa: there is no indication from where each got called as that information
2017-02-11T11:31:17Z wasamasa: got lost during compilation
2017-02-11T11:37:17Z ski: these only being the calls that are currently active (so not including calls which have tail called other things) ?
2017-02-11T11:41:54Z wasamasa: dunno, haven't looked at it that closely
2017-02-11T11:43:42Z ski: mhm
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2017-02-11T12:17:05Z ecraven: Riastradh: if I run into out of memory on mit-scheme, is there any way to show how the memory is used? something like a count of objects per record type or so?
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2017-02-11T12:39:35Z jonaslund: wasamasa: yes, and sometimes stack traces do provide more information about the context than a call trace
2017-02-11T12:40:29Z jonaslund: wasamasa: for chicken i guess it also has a bit to do with the design of the compiler, since the stack trace is basically a call trace there's little reason not to dump it out.
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2017-02-11T12:49:09Z ski: hm .. or perhaps a call trace in Chicken also includes preceding calls that are no longer active (considering how it uses CPS) ?
2017-02-11T12:49:31Z ski doesn't know where to find information about this
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2017-02-12T17:55:59Z gaze__: Hey guys, I'm a bit confused about what the standard way to think about data structures in scheme is. I'm used to ADTs and structs and such (coming from a C/ML background)
2017-02-12T17:56:18Z gaze__: but I see no calls to define-struct in the chicken scheme or the gambit scheme compiler
2017-02-12T17:56:38Z gaze__: so I feel like there's a different way schemers think about this
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2017-02-12T17:57:08Z gaze__: is the rule just to aggressively turn everything into a list?
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2017-02-12T18:02:44Z koz_: gaze__: There are structs (we call them records) in Scheme, but the support varies.
2017-02-12T18:02:55Z koz_: R5RS didn't have them built-in, so people had to use SRFIs.
2017-02-12T18:03:08Z koz_: Gambit I'm pretty sure has support for a record SRFI somewhere.
2017-02-12T18:03:13Z koz_: Chicken I'm not sure about.
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2017-02-12T18:03:27Z koz_: (R7RS made them part of the standard)
2017-02-12T18:03:31Z gaze__: yes so I totally believe that there's structs or there's certainly the ability to implement them
2017-02-12T18:03:36Z gaze__: but I'm curious why I don't see people using them
2017-02-12T18:03:46Z gaze__: there seems to be a different way of think about these things
2017-02-12T18:03:54Z jmd: gaze__: Using lists instead of stricts is one way.  How "aggressive" about it you want to be is up to you.
2017-02-12T18:04:06Z koz_: gaze__: That's not true - if you look at many SRFIs, they use structs fairly often.
2017-02-12T18:04:18Z koz_: s/structs/records/
2017-02-12T18:04:24Z jmd: I often use alists where I might use a struct in other languages.
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2017-02-12T18:05:11Z koz_ prefers records for such purposes.
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2017-02-12T18:48:05Z lemonpie: gambit and chicken both support SRFI-9 style 'define-record-type' out of the box
2017-02-12T18:48:56Z lemonpie: ie, (define-record-type test (make-test x y) test? (x test-x) (y test-y)) creates a structure with x and y fields, a make-test constructor, a test? predicate and accessor functions
2017-02-12T18:49:51Z lemonpie: and R6RS added records into the standard, but deviated from SRFI-9 in a way that pissed people off, so SRFI-99 got created, and now we have like 30 billion different record signatures
2017-02-12T18:50:57Z lemonpie: I *think* SRFI-9's syntax started off in racket in the R4RS days
2017-02-12T18:53:22Z lemonpie: although saying that, I have a vague recollection of using define-record-type in LispMe even before that
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2017-02-13T11:02:33Z John[Lisbeth]: is scheme like the perl of lisp?
2017-02-13T11:09:01Z gwatt: I think common lisp is better described that way.
2017-02-13T11:09:13Z larsen: interesting question. I'd rather say that CL is the Perl of functional languages (big, lot of freedom, possibly dangerous if not used in a disciplined way). At least that's my impression being experieced with Perl and less with CL.
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2017-02-13T11:50:17Z weinholt: it's like the perl but not like Perl
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2017-02-13T12:53:02Z renopt: if CL is perl, then scheme is lua
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2017-02-13T16:09:46Z aeth: CL seems to me more like the C++ of functional languages. Popular (relatively speaking, at least historically), tons of features, and probably does things in slightly the wrong way because of backwards compatibility.
2017-02-13T16:10:30Z aeth: I'm not sure where this would put Scheme. Possibly still Lua.
2017-02-13T16:10:55Z aeth: Oh, I forgot to add "fast" to CL in my analogy.
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2017-02-13T16:34:54Z gwatt: But the original question was "is scheme like the perl of lisp?"
2017-02-13T16:35:42Z aeth: no, Scheme is too readable
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2017-02-15T15:14:39Z ski: \h : it doesn't return at all. the earlier call `(factorial 4)' is what returns (again)
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2017-02-15T15:19:12Z ski: \h : try something like `(let ((f (factorial 24))) (display "(factorial 24)  ;; => ") (display f) (newline))' and then the same calls to `retry'
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2017-02-15T15:22:50Z \h: ski: thanks
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2017-02-15T15:41:02Z manumanumanu: I'm fighting library specifications. Is there a good way to import only one procedure from another library, but rename it? I feel stupid trying to read the r6rs report
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2017-02-15T15:47:45Z C-Keen: in CHICKEN there are import modifiers that allow this
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2017-02-15T15:50:49Z manumanumanu: C-Keen: but this is using r6rs library form
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2017-02-15T15:54:37Z C-Keen: manumanumanu: those look like the same, like here https://www.gnu.org/software/guile/manual/html_node/R6RS-Libraries.html
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2017-02-15T15:55:44Z C-Keen: a combination of only and rename  and binding that to the desired export symbol
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2017-02-15T17:41:38Z jcowan: The difference between Chicken and R6RS/R7RS import is that Chicken does not have export with renaming, which makes certain (rare) things very awkward.
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2017-02-15T18:00:38Z C-Keen: is reexport gone?
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2017-02-15T18:07:20Z jcowan: No, but that's not the same thing.  This is saying that the identifier defined and possibly used as "foo" within the module will be imported as "bar" when the module is imported.
2017-02-15T18:07:36Z jcowan: (export (foo bar))
2017-02-15T18:09:34Z C-Keen: you cannot rename the identifier in one go? I must admit I never had a use case for that
2017-02-15T18:09:46Z C-Keen: so I don't know
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2017-02-15T18:13:28Z gwatt: According to this: http://scheme.com/tspl4/libraries.html#g142 there is a (rename ...) form as part of import
2017-02-15T18:14:57Z gwatt: Though that is for r6rs.
2017-02-15T18:19:33Z jcowan: Chicken has that too.
2017-02-15T18:23:06Z jcowan: Sorry, the syntax is (export (rename foo bar)) where "rename" is a non-hygienic keyword
2017-02-15T18:24:02Z gwatt: I see that now. I was only looking at import spec
2017-02-15T18:25:00Z jcowan: I know there is a use case written down somewhere, but I can't locate it
2017-02-15T18:25:25Z jcowan: I was arguing against the feature for R7RS, and then someone brought up the use case.
2017-02-15T18:26:01Z gwatt: The only thing I can think of is that you want to shadow an existing identifier in your export, but don't want to rename it at import
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2017-02-15T18:31:55Z jcowan: Yeah, it would have to be a case where you are exporting an identifier that everyone wants to rename.  But then why not rename it yourself?
2017-02-15T18:32:36Z jcowan: Damn.  I raised the issue on the r6rs-discuss list, whereof the archive was lost.
2017-02-15T18:36:42Z gwatt: Not that I write scheme constantly, but I've preferred using prefix imports to renaming anyway.
2017-02-15T18:36:59Z weinholt: i'm sure there's an archive somewhere to embarrass all of us
2017-02-15T18:48:18Z ecraven: jcowan: does no-one have a private archive?
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2017-02-15T18:49:49Z jcowan: Not that I know of.  Of course to really find out we'd have to send a message out on the listserv, which is what's broken.
2017-02-15T18:50:15Z ecraven: ah
2017-02-15T18:50:26Z jcowan: I talked to Will Clinger about it and he expected that the list would return "soon".  That was quite a few years ago now.
2017-02-15T18:51:31Z jcowan: I did locate someone's explanation of it, that if you want to export a value whose name is x, and then you want to export the name x bound to a different value (or the analogue for syntax keywords),
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2017-02-15T18:51:42Z gwatt: Real Soon Now®
2017-02-15T18:51:56Z weinholt: here it is, https://web.archive.org/web/20130604012629/http://lists.r6rs.org/pipermail/r6rs-discuss/
2017-02-15T18:51:58Z jcowan: you need to either rename on import or on export, and it would be good to have it work either way depending on which is clearer.
2017-02-15T18:53:20Z gwatt: You want to export the same thing under two or more different identifiers?
2017-02-15T18:53:52Z ecraven: hm.. is there support in r7rs to export the same module multiple times? so I can export a "public api" version and an "internal use only" version?
2017-02-15T18:54:07Z ecraven: scheme-48 had that with "structures", I believe
2017-02-15T18:54:11Z jcowan: No, there isn't.
2017-02-15T18:54:30Z ecraven: I could have used that a few times recently :-/
2017-02-15T18:54:53Z jcowan: I figured out the use case.  If you are writing a module to do lambda calculus in, you are going to want to export the name "lambda" to mean something other than what it means in Scheme.
2017-02-15T18:55:14Z gwatt: I guess.
2017-02-15T18:55:14Z taylan: ecraven: you can use several .sld wrappers for one body file
2017-02-15T18:55:28Z ecraven: taylan: which will not work if you have global state internal to the module, I believe?
2017-02-15T18:55:35Z jcowan: It would suck to have to say, in your module (import (scheme base) (rename lambda real-lambda))) and then write all your code using real-lambda instead of lambda.
2017-02-15T18:55:44Z taylan: ecraven: hmm, I guess not
2017-02-15T18:56:01Z taylan: ecraven: you could also have a wrapper library that imports and re-exports bindings
2017-02-15T18:56:17Z jcowan: Whereas in R6RS you can use Scheme lambda internally, define calc:lambda yourself, and export it as lambda.
2017-02-15T18:56:27Z gwatt: jcowan: Do you not run into the same problem from the other side when attempting to use the calculus-lambda?
2017-02-15T18:56:38Z gwatt: within its defined context, that is
2017-02-15T18:56:51Z jcowan: Yes, but we assume that anyone who imports this module is not writing Scheme anyway (different base library)
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2017-02-15T18:57:10Z jcowan: i.e. this lambda does normal form evaluation
2017-02-15T18:58:11Z jcowan: You can indeed have as many library files as you want for one code file, as well as having many code files for one library file.
2017-02-15T18:58:50Z ecraven: but you still won't get shared bindings, right? each library will have it's own "instance" of the code?
2017-02-15T19:01:17Z jcowan: I don't know the answer to that.
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2017-02-15T19:02:58Z jcowan: On reflection I think you must be right.  If two modules import the same file containing a define-record-type, the resulting record types are obviously distinct.
2017-02-15T19:03:17Z ecraven: yea, that's unfortunately not very useful in my case :-/
2017-02-15T19:03:25Z jcowan: If you want to share them, you have to put them in a third module which both import.
2017-02-15T19:03:29Z ecraven: something to include in r8rs some day :-/
2017-02-15T19:03:41Z ecraven: hm.. so I'd have to have pure "re-exporting" libraries
2017-02-15T19:03:57Z jcowan nods.
2017-02-15T19:04:12Z jcowan: Of course you could write some code to create them.
2017-02-15T19:04:31Z ecraven: hehe, well, first I'll need mit-scheme to support r7rs libraries anyway :p
2017-02-15T19:04:39Z ecraven: but it's getting unicode support, so who knows :D
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2017-02-15T19:14:05Z gwatt: jcowan: My question was not about using calc-lambda from outside the library, but from inside. I assume as part of your lambda calculus library you want to use said identifier
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2017-02-16T08:01:41Z wasamasa: reposted from #emacs: https://groups.google.com/forum/#!msg/racket-dev/2BV3ElyfF8Y/4RSd3XbECAAJ
2017-02-16T08:01:57Z wasamasa: "TL;DR: I expect the main Racket distribution to run on Chez Scheme instead of the current Racket VM sometime in the next couple of years."
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2017-02-16T08:22:48Z manumanumanu: wasamasa: this is cool.
2017-02-16T08:24:10Z manumanumanu: and a good choice
2017-02-16T08:24:42Z wasamasa: I dunno, doesn't that restrict the platforms they run on?
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2017-02-16T08:26:11Z manumanumanu: wasamasa: well, on what platforms wouldn't they run? chez can produce arm code, no? There is no easy way to install it, but they have a boot image iirc
2017-02-16T08:27:18Z manumanumanu: sparc
2017-02-16T08:27:23Z manumanumanu: isn't supported
2017-02-16T08:29:03Z manumanumanu: and so far only linux, osx and windows. But there isn't that much platform specific stuff what i can see.
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2017-02-16T11:28:14Z gwatt: there are still build files for the bsds as well
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2017-02-20T05:49:10Z mrtrump: anyone here run a website using scheme?
2017-02-20T05:49:14Z mrtrump: it is nice?
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2017-02-20T06:30:05Z ecraven: mrtrump: aye
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2017-02-20T07:08:50Z mrtrump: ya?
2017-02-20T07:08:57Z mrtrump: java n python seem yuk
2017-02-20T07:09:01Z mrtrump: Id rather learn scheme
2017-02-20T07:09:05Z mrtrump: enjoy some abstraction
2017-02-20T07:09:17Z mrtrump: which web tools do you use ecraven
2017-02-20T07:09:18Z mrtrump: ?
2017-02-20T07:09:21Z wasamasa: your cheap trolling bores me
2017-02-20T07:09:36Z mrtrump: I hope your not talking to me, because I never troll.
2017-02-20T07:10:01Z wasamasa: it's like nobody in #scheme would ever dare using it for actual programming
2017-02-20T07:10:12Z ecraven: mrtrump: I'm using MIT/GNU Scheme with some custom code I've written. nginx talks to it via scgi
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2017-02-20T07:36:46Z mrtrump: woa
2017-02-20T07:37:08Z mrtrump: so nginx to scheme over scgi
2017-02-20T07:37:18Z mrtrump: I didnt know scheme spoke scgi
2017-02-20T07:37:25Z mrtrump: is that a module?
2017-02-20T07:37:36Z mrtrump: did you use what was it called.......glow or something?
2017-02-20T07:37:49Z mrtrump: there was some oh no that was guile
2017-02-20T07:42:31Z mrtrump: now what about persistance?
2017-02-20T07:42:38Z mrtrump: use db?
2017-02-20T07:42:44Z mrtrump: or keep data in scheme somehow?
2017-02-20T07:42:47Z mrtrump: or files?
2017-02-20T07:43:01Z wasamasa waits for "why don't you write a database in scheme" trolling
2017-02-20T07:43:10Z mrtrump: look man
2017-02-20T07:43:16Z mrtrump: I dont know who made u mad
2017-02-20T07:43:24Z wasamasa: I've seen it before and have been underwhelmed
2017-02-20T07:43:26Z mrtrump: but dont take it on me
2017-02-20T07:43:39Z mrtrump: ok so scheme works fine with scgi?
2017-02-20T07:43:58Z mrtrump: now I saw chicken scheme, the one I play with has db stuff
2017-02-20T07:44:02Z wasamasa: it may be surprising, but scgi has been designed to be independent of your preferred programming language
2017-02-20T07:44:05Z mrtrump: I was just asking that dude what he used
2017-02-20T07:44:17Z wasamasa: in fact, loads of protocols are
2017-02-20T07:44:35Z mrtrump: ok so scheme is well capable.......is there any blog kinda site running on scheme you can point me to?
2017-02-20T07:44:46Z wasamasa: I can tell nginx to reverse-proxy to anything offering its services
2017-02-20T07:44:48Z mrtrump: ok I am getting your point
2017-02-20T07:45:01Z mrtrump: ok so there is no problem
2017-02-20T07:45:01Z wasamasa: it's so normal nobody is getting excited about it
2017-02-20T07:45:09Z mrtrump: what gets you exited?
2017-02-20T07:45:40Z wasamasa: impaling trolls
2017-02-20T07:47:36Z wasamasa: https://dthompson.us/about.html
2017-02-20T07:47:42Z wasamasa: "This website is built with Haunt, a static site generator written in Guile Scheme."
2017-02-20T07:48:12Z wasamasa: because one does not even need to have a scheme process running to serve their blog
2017-02-20T07:49:45Z wasamasa: in fact, it's a waste of CPU cycles if you ever get traffic from hackernews
2017-02-20T07:54:15Z mrtrump: well yeah static is 1 thing
2017-02-20T07:54:22Z mrtrump: but dynamic is what is more useful
2017-02-20T07:54:34Z wasamasa: hardly if you're speaking of a blog
2017-02-20T07:56:49Z wasamasa: hence why you'll have difficulties finding any dynamically generated ones in scheme
2017-02-20T07:56:59Z mrtrump: what about a forum
2017-02-20T07:57:13Z mrtrump: I mean yes with static webserver and vi I can do a blog with 4 html tags
2017-02-20T07:58:12Z wasamasa: forums are dead and if people need one, they just slap phpbb on a cheap hoster
2017-02-20T07:58:30Z mrtrump: why are forums dead?
2017-02-20T07:58:33Z mrtrump: I love forums
2017-02-20T07:58:48Z mrtrump: I wish there were more online chat sites
2017-02-20T07:58:58Z mrtrump: like this but web enabled and lots of people
2017-02-20T07:59:00Z mrtrump: and topics
2017-02-20T07:59:09Z mrtrump: like old aol chat
2017-02-20T07:59:36Z wasamasa: aol chat is not a forum
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2017-02-20T08:04:26Z mrtrump: yes keep up
2017-02-20T08:04:31Z mrtrump: I was talking about chat
2017-02-20T08:04:34Z mrtrump: after forum
2017-02-20T08:04:35Z mrtrump: now
2017-02-20T08:04:38Z mrtrump: smart guy
2017-02-20T08:04:50Z mrtrump: what do you use for dynamic websites and e commerce?
2017-02-20T08:04:56Z mrtrump: smart guy
2017-02-20T08:05:08Z mrtrump: who sounds like a democrat, thus not smart
2017-02-20T08:05:33Z mrtrump: [[ shields up lol ]]
2017-02-20T08:05:35Z wasamasa: *plonk*
2017-02-20T08:05:44Z mrtrump: cant take the banter?
2017-02-20T08:05:47Z mrtrump: loll
2017-02-20T08:06:54Z mrtrump: demaacratttz
2017-02-20T08:12:05Z wasamasa: I'll just assume you're the same idiot as on https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/comp.lang.scheme/DwcIP9cWR7o
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2017-02-20T08:31:56Z mrtrump: idiot?
2017-02-20T08:31:58Z mrtrump: oow
2017-02-20T08:32:09Z mrtrump: why are you insulting me personally, you moron?
2017-02-20T08:32:18Z mrtrump: instead of discussing ideas?
2017-02-20T08:32:29Z ecraven: mrtrump: I persist to sqlite with a simple ORM
2017-02-20T08:32:34Z mrtrump: or telling me why an idea is correct in a normal manor so we can both learn?
2017-02-20T08:32:44Z mrtrump: I mean personal insults are the lowest iq option
2017-02-20T08:33:12Z mrtrump: ecraven: where might I read about the scgi to scheme code? and that orm?
2017-02-20T08:33:20Z ecraven: nowhere, it's just personal code, not published
2017-02-20T08:33:25Z ecraven: some day, I might ;)
2017-02-20T08:33:37Z mrtrump: is there existing code or SRI to make nginx work with scgi to scheme?
2017-02-20T08:33:39Z mrtrump: oh
2017-02-20T08:33:41Z mrtrump: nice
2017-02-20T08:33:48Z ecraven: scgi is very simple, not hard to implement at all
2017-02-20T08:34:08Z mrtrump: did you also write the orm?
2017-02-20T08:35:49Z mrtrump: why is it idiocy to ask about scheme and e commerce?
2017-02-20T08:36:06Z mrtrump: I meanwhats with people and censorship
2017-02-20T08:36:18Z mrtrump: asking basic questions is idiocy
2017-02-20T08:38:19Z mrtrump: ecraven: did you have to write any c to have scgi talk to scheme?
2017-02-20T08:40:37Z ecraven: not much, the mit-scheme ffi is pretty nice
2017-02-20T08:40:38Z mrtrump: I just dont know....can you just code scheme
2017-02-20T08:40:49Z mrtrump: and have it talk to a scgi module..
2017-02-20T08:40:50Z ecraven: ah, sorry, the scgi code is actually plain scheme, no c at all
2017-02-20T08:40:56Z ecraven: yes, you can
2017-02-20T08:41:05Z mrtrump: oh wow
2017-02-20T08:41:08Z mrtrump: cool
2017-02-20T08:41:36Z mrtrump: so did you have to use some scgi module in your scheme to talk to nginx?
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2017-02-20T10:40:33Z manumanumanu: So, i'm pretty new to this syntax-case stuff... Why doesn't this work: http://pastebin.com/9Nx1C0e6 (in chez)
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2017-02-20T11:13:33Z manumanumanu: ah. sorry. made it work
2017-02-20T11:13:46Z manumanumanu: should have used syntax->list instead of datum.
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2017-02-20T19:38:52Z mrtrump: scheme for e commerce
2017-02-20T19:38:56Z mrtrump: whos doing it?
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2017-02-20T19:41:15Z mikeyhc: I have previously
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2017-02-20T20:10:11Z mrtrump: ya?
2017-02-20T20:10:15Z mrtrump: howd it go?
2017-02-20T20:10:20Z mrtrump: scalable? statble?
2017-02-20T20:12:30Z qu1j0t3: ops?
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2017-02-20T20:47:24Z mikeyhc: I was using chicken so was able to use most the standard unix tools on it. Scaling was managed through individual processes communicating through a message queue, basic loging was provided using greylog2
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2017-02-21T00:10:43Z mrtrump: message queue?
2017-02-21T00:10:50Z mrtrump: I see those all over now
2017-02-21T00:10:53Z mrtrump: why so popular?
2017-02-21T00:11:03Z mrtrump: allow multi node scaling?
2017-02-21T00:11:17Z mrtrump: how that compare to 3 tier with appservers calling database?
2017-02-21T00:11:32Z mrtrump: use awful?
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2017-02-21T00:13:06Z mikeyhc: used awful, and it allowed a uniform interface for single and multi node scaling. performance was comparable to database and was far easier to scale.
2017-02-21T00:14:25Z mikeyhc: I wrote some macros to provide a simple REST framework using awful to be more precise
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2017-02-21T00:39:22Z mrtrump: hmm
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2017-02-21T00:41:38Z mrtrump: so you didnt need like postgresql?
2017-02-21T00:41:44Z mrtrump: awful held the data?
2017-02-21T00:41:47Z mrtrump: woa
2017-02-21T00:44:08Z mikeyhc: I used a postgresql to hold order information but due to how slow postgres syncing was at the time I used message queue for non critical information, like session tokens
2017-02-21T00:58:20Z mrtrump: was scheme more pleasant than ruby etc for the coding?
2017-02-21T00:58:25Z mrtrump: did abstractions help?
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2017-02-21T01:00:11Z mikeyhc: haven't used ruby enough to comment, prior to that I was using perl and it was more concise and generally more maintainable than perl. scheme abstractions are a two-edge sword, macro make a lot of tasks easier, but can also make them a lot more difficult to debug, especially in running production systems
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2017-02-21T05:22:13Z mrtrump: scheme seems more powerful than java
2017-02-21T05:22:25Z mrtrump: Id love to do a startup with scheme and get rich.
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2017-02-21T06:04:25Z mrtrump: why if scheme is superior tek
2017-02-21T06:04:29Z mrtrump: arent there more startups?
2017-02-21T06:04:33Z mrtrump: java suuuuukz
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2017-02-21T06:15:37Z mrtrump: what do schemers think of werc.cat-v.org
2017-02-21T06:15:40Z mrtrump: ?
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2017-02-21T09:56:21Z afidegnum: hello good morning, anyone online ?
2017-02-21T09:57:02Z DKordic: Hello afidegnum.
2017-02-21T09:58:16Z afidegnum: DKordic: it seems scheme population is not many here
2017-02-21T09:59:08Z ecraven: afidegnum: mostly dormant
2017-02-21T09:59:19Z ecraven: maybe hibernating
2017-02-21T10:00:30Z afidegnum: what's are the differences in dialects, concepts and practicality between common-lisp and scheme?
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2017-02-21T10:05:56Z ecraven: that's hard to explain in one sentence
2017-02-21T10:06:21Z ecraven: scheme is a lisp-1, cl is a lisp-n ;) CL (the standard) is more comprehensive than r7rs-small, but r7rs-large is supposed to change this
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2017-02-21T10:07:17Z afidegnum: :)
2017-02-21T10:07:18Z afidegnum: ok
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2017-02-21T17:48:12Z jcowan: hey ho
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2017-02-24T10:19:33Z jmd: Does anyone have any experience with slib ?
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2017-02-24T12:33:15Z aticko: is there a way in scheme for a function to return itself?
2017-02-24T12:36:08Z gwatt: sure, but why do you want to do that?
2017-02-24T12:36:31Z aticko: to chain calls to it
2017-02-24T12:36:48Z aticko: ((fun 1) 2)
2017-02-24T12:37:05Z gwatt: oooh, nothing standard
2017-02-24T12:37:06Z z0d: what do you do with the result?
2017-02-24T12:37:30Z aticko: z0d: nothing, in this case there are side effects
2017-02-24T12:37:45Z aticko: just want the convenience
2017-02-24T12:38:03Z aticko: gwatt: something non-standard then? :)
2017-02-24T12:38:11Z aticko: i'm on mit-scheme
2017-02-24T12:38:12Z z0d: aticko: why not just give it a list then?
2017-02-24T12:38:16Z gwatt: https://gist.github.com/gwatt/42a5cde08adcfc351e1dad545738a5f6
2017-02-24T12:38:17Z z0d: (fun '(1 2))
2017-02-24T12:39:11Z aticko: z0d: because my actual function takes more arguments, and the chaining syntax would end up being quite nice
2017-02-24T12:40:33Z gwatt: You could also just define partial-apply to be (lambda (func . args) (lambda rest) (apply func (append args rest)))
2017-02-24T12:41:09Z aticko: sure, i know a ton of ways to do it
2017-02-24T12:41:18Z aticko: but none of them are satisfactory
2017-02-24T12:41:25Z aticko: anyway, it's not possible, so fair enough
2017-02-24T12:42:24Z aticko: hm, do people agree with this guy? http://letoverlambda.com/index.cl/guest/chap5.html
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2017-02-24T12:44:44Z aticko: i tend to think of functions as values that happens to be apply-able, and lisp certainly fits that description
2017-02-24T12:45:02Z gwatt: He's talking about the mathematical definition of functional
2017-02-24T12:45:20Z aticko: i know, but that's not the definition of a functional language
2017-02-24T12:45:58Z aticko: not pure, but certainly functional
2017-02-24T12:46:14Z gwatt shrugs
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2017-02-24T12:46:58Z gwatt: He might be 100% correct, but I can't bring myself to care about the distinction he's drawing.
2017-02-24T12:47:04Z aticko: i see
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2017-02-24T13:08:37Z renopt: so, he's pointing out that common lisp is not a purely functional language
2017-02-24T13:08:52Z renopt: very insightful
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2017-02-24T13:34:25Z jmd: No language is purely functional.
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2017-02-24T17:14:51Z DeeEff: Some people have taken to the mistaken idea that functional programming == Hindley-Milner type system + Monads
2017-02-24T17:14:52Z DeeEff: I don't necessarily think it's so clear cut
2017-02-24T17:15:14Z qu1j0t3: well, you can't stop people thinking silly things
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2017-02-24T17:22:40Z jcowan: Functional programming is a perspective, as object-oriented programming is.  Both terms are fuzzy: there is no feature that all, and only, functional programs have.
2017-02-24T17:23:03Z jcowan: "Functions are just poor man's objects, but then objects are just poor man's functions."
2017-02-24T17:24:46Z qu1j0t3: anyway DeeEff that would put the cart before the horse. HM and monads are just handy tools. not a paradigm.
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2017-02-24T17:31:48Z jcowan: And HM is a rather problematic tool.  It attempts to find a globally consistent typing, but may find one you didn't want; and if the typing is globally inconsistent, it reports the problem it found, not the error you made.
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2017-02-26T14:14:25Z marrenarre: (let ((hello '("hello world\n"))) (set-cdr! hello hello) (display hello))
2017-02-26T14:18:15Z wasamasa: good job
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2017-02-26T18:34:16Z marrenarre: wasamasa: thanks
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2017-02-27T01:01:12Z trumps_weewee: why won't my custom tabulation function work?
2017-02-27T01:01:18Z trumps_weewee: http://pastebin.com/hnYibaY1
2017-02-27T01:01:25Z trumps_weewee: wtf, m8?
2017-02-27T01:01:29Z trumps_weewee: what's wrong with it? i know something's wrong with it, but i'm tired of trying to figure it out
2017-02-27T01:03:08Z gwatt: What happens when you try it?
2017-02-27T01:04:06Z trumps_weewee: it doesn't tabulate the result as i want it to; i.e. it's just as costly even when memoized
2017-02-27T01:05:18Z trumps_weewee: 'results' seems to be reset every time the memoized procedure is run, and it's really chapping my ass
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2017-02-27T01:31:09Z gwatt: dunno, I just use delay/force
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2017-02-27T01:33:10Z Riastradh: That's single-value memoization, not input-dependent memoization of a function.  This code shadows the local variable `results'.  But it also smells like Gavino, and even if not, the name `trumps_weewee' is really not appropriate.
2017-02-27T01:37:13Z qu1j0t3: Riastradh: it sure does
2017-02-27T01:37:58Z qu1j0t3: except this is the first actual code i've ever seen gavino produce
2017-02-27T01:46:02Z trumps_weewee: Riastradh: update (without shadowing) - http://pastebin.com/K0BDX91j
2017-02-27T01:46:30Z trumps_weewee: it still resets the local variable 'prev-results' everytime it's run :(
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2017-02-27T01:49:41Z trumps_weewee: as for my handle: pretty inappropriate, yeah; can't say I put much thought into it
2017-02-27T01:49:50Z Riastradh: Now you're assigning the wrong variable.
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2017-02-27T02:07:48Z dTal: "inappropriate" is just authoritarian-talk for "subversive"
2017-02-27T02:08:50Z dTal: the implication is that violating norms or otherwise rocking the boat is never justified
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2017-02-27T02:38:53Z qu1j0t3: revolution starts with your Freenode nick, folks
2017-02-27T02:40:39Z Riastradh: Apparently the implication is that I'm a Trumpophiliac dictator, which is quite a remarkable achievement of mental gymnastics from a single word.
2017-02-27T02:44:17Z Riastradh: Guess I'm just autocrat of the breakfast channel over here, expelling immigrants from other channels who threaten my power with subversive ideas.
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2017-02-27T19:37:51Z ticklisp: hi all
2017-02-27T19:38:32Z jcowan: hey ho
2017-02-27T19:38:33Z ticklisp: is it reasonable to implement quote as just wrapping what's quoted in a lambda? When evaluated, the lambda is executed.
2017-02-27T19:39:06Z ticklisp: i guess the problem is that you sometimes need to really treat what is quoted as a list
2017-02-27T19:40:53Z gwatt: also that you're not necessarily referencing an otherwise bound identifier.
2017-02-27T19:41:21Z jcowan: Yes.  For example, given (define foo '(1 2 3)), then (list? foo) => #t and (procedure? foo) => #f.
2017-02-27T19:42:04Z ticklisp: i see. so quote really makes a (constant) list of unevaluated expressions?
2017-02-27T19:46:17Z ticklisp: gwatt: about bound identifiers. Consider "(define (test a) '(+ a 2))"   That returns a quoted expression referencing "a". So can I somehow evaluate what is returned by (test 5) ?
2017-02-27T19:46:21Z wasamasa: quote returns its argument without evaluating it
2017-02-27T19:46:34Z wasamasa: implementing that should be trivial :P
2017-02-27T19:46:54Z wasamasa: now, backquote is a good deal harder
2017-02-27T19:47:21Z ticklisp: wasamasa: trivial, yeah, but what does the test function above mean? can it reference a?
2017-02-27T19:47:30Z wasamasa: um, no?
2017-02-27T19:47:39Z wasamasa: it gives you (+ a 2)
2017-02-27T19:47:47Z ticklisp: yes. So if i eval that
2017-02-27T19:47:55Z ticklisp: and there's an a in scope, that will be used?
2017-02-27T19:48:03Z ticklisp 's a noob
2017-02-27T19:48:14Z wasamasa: if it's in the global scope, yes
2017-02-27T19:48:28Z ticklisp: why not a local lexical var?
2017-02-27T19:50:43Z gwatt: eval doesn't have access to that. It has an optional second parameter which is its execution environment and that defaults to global scope
2017-02-27T19:51:04Z wasamasa: or wait, if we're fully standards-compliant, eval would require you to specify the environment you're in
2017-02-27T19:51:18Z ticklisp: oh, what's the syntax for "the current" env?
2017-02-27T19:51:54Z wasamasa: that depends on your implementation
2017-02-27T19:51:57Z ticklisp: dr racket
2017-02-27T19:52:11Z wasamasa: the standard specifies a number of default environments
2017-02-27T19:52:26Z wasamasa: drracket isn't a scheme implementation...
2017-02-27T19:52:44Z wasamasa: also, depending on your program's first lines, it could be in anything, including brainfuck
2017-02-27T19:52:48Z wasamasa: yay, racket
2017-02-27T19:53:45Z ticklisp: schemish. yeah, i guess i should go to the drracket channel for specifics
2017-02-27T19:53:59Z wasamasa: #racket you mean
2017-02-27T19:54:04Z ticklisp: yes
2017-02-27T19:54:11Z wasamasa: drracket is just one of the many tools distributed with racket
2017-02-27T19:54:22Z ticklisp: i told you i was noob
2017-02-27T19:54:39Z gwatt: looks like (current-namespace)
2017-02-27T19:54:46Z wasamasa: I've been told elsewhere that the canonical way to achieve local bindings is (eval `(let ((a 1)) (+ a 2)))
2017-02-27T19:55:34Z wasamasa: which looks a lot like the stuff I'm handing to bots...
2017-02-27T19:55:47Z wasamasa: rudybot: eval (let ((a 1)) (+ a 2))
2017-02-27T19:55:49Z rudybot: wasamasa: your sandbox is ready
2017-02-27T19:55:49Z rudybot: wasamasa: ; Value: 3
2017-02-27T19:56:23Z ticklisp: wasamasa: thanks, that works in racket as well.
2017-02-27T19:56:25Z ticklisp: excellent
2017-02-27T19:56:30Z wasamasa: that even works in elisp :D
2017-02-27T19:57:52Z ticklisp: however, if the quote comes from another function, i get +: unbound identifier;
2017-02-27T19:58:20Z gwatt: heh, looks like (define r6rs (copy-environment (environment '(rnrs)))) (eval '(define a 1) r6rs) (eval a r6rs) => 1
2017-02-27T19:58:20Z ticklisp: if i do an eval on the returned '(+ a 2) quote
2017-02-27T19:58:35Z ticklisp: insane
2017-02-27T19:58:48Z gwatt: your scheme may vary
2017-02-27T19:59:19Z gwatt: which I guess is sensible, as that makes implementing a repl pretty easy
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2017-02-27T20:07:59Z jcowan: ticklisp: There is no way to refer to the current *lexical* environment in any Scheme I know of
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2017-02-27T20:08:27Z ticklisp: jcowan: any good language design reasons for that?
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2017-02-27T20:08:44Z jcowan: It means that the idea of a variable is completely decoupled from any particular runtime representation.
2017-02-27T20:08:47Z ticklisp: i would like that so i know i'm using the "closest" bindings
2017-02-27T20:09:27Z jcowan: there is nothing about the run-time symbol |a| that has anything to do with any variable, local or global
2017-02-27T20:10:16Z ticklisp: jcowan: i understand. So quoting something that attempt to reference a variable when evaluated is nonsense?
2017-02-27T20:10:56Z ticklisp: or an identifier, more generally
2017-02-27T20:11:49Z ticklisp: i ask because, hey, that would be a somewhat controlled way of overriding operations. A quote could require the presence of a "concat" function, and it would use whatever you defined in the lexical environment.
2017-02-27T20:12:15Z ticklisp: a protocol/interface of sorts
2017-02-27T20:12:54Z jcowan: Yes, it is nonsense
2017-02-27T20:13:15Z jcowan: The internal representation of the lexical environment can be anything the compiler wants
2017-02-27T20:13:17Z ticklisp: not if the identifier is a function
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2017-02-27T20:15:58Z gwatt: ticklisp: what makes you say that?
2017-02-27T20:17:28Z ticklisp: gwatt: ref concat example (controlled way to override/replace/redefine functions referenced in a quote)
2017-02-27T20:18:52Z ticklisp: racket solves this with ad-hoc namespaces. Using the current lexical scope as a namespace by default would get me what i want.
2017-02-27T20:21:30Z gwatt: I'm not really sure what you're saying
2017-02-27T20:24:10Z ticklisp: me neither
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2017-02-28T11:26:28Z solene: hello, does scheme have some kind of a library manager ? (like quicklisp for common lisp)
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2017-02-28T11:35:15Z greatscottttt: solene: I don't know of one, certain implementations will have their own package/module/etc. managers
2017-02-28T11:35:58Z C-Keen: every scheme system has its own, there's snow which tries to establish a general format and R7RS specifies this in the standard as snow2
2017-02-28T11:38:26Z greatscottttt: C-Keen: ah cool that's good to know
2017-02-28T11:42:59Z solene: I think it's a recurrent question but. Which implementation would you recommend me to start with scheme ?
2017-02-28T11:43:58Z C-Keen: on which operating system are you on?
2017-02-28T11:44:12Z solene: C-Keen: OpenBSD
2017-02-28T11:44:26Z C-Keen: drracket or chicken scheme do work well
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2017-02-28T11:44:44Z C-Keen: compile chicken from sources yourself though the package is outdated
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2017-02-28T11:47:12Z solene: C-Keen: I will try chicken. Thanks for the version hint, I may update the package then
2017-02-28T11:47:54Z C-Keen: solene: if you need help please ask again or join #chicken
2017-02-28T11:48:40Z manumanumanu: solene: the #chicken channel is the most helpful one I have ever encountered on irc. Really
2017-02-28T11:49:00Z solene: people seems nice too here
2017-02-28T11:49:37Z manumanumanu: Scheme does that to people
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2017-02-28T11:52:09Z solene: C-Keen: latest version of chicken is available on latest version on OpenBSD (-current which will be next release)
2017-02-28T11:52:39Z C-Keen: 4.12.0?
2017-02-28T11:52:58Z solene: yes
2017-02-28T11:53:08Z C-Keen: coole. I always build it locally so I have not been paying attention to the ports tree
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2017-02-28T13:43:37Z tacktor: hey peeps
2017-02-28T13:43:42Z tacktor: newish to lisp
2017-02-28T13:44:20Z tacktor: if it is true that quote returns an unevaluated expression, why doesn't evaluating '(1 2 3) treat "1" as a function?
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2017-02-28T13:46:23Z solene: tacktor: I think it's because you use ' before which mean (quote (1 2 3))
2017-02-28T13:46:55Z tacktor: solene: that doesn't change anything?
2017-02-28T13:47:17Z tacktor: I understand that (list (1 2 3)) makes a list
2017-02-28T13:47:32Z tacktor: but quote is supposed to take (1 2 3) and defer eval
2017-02-28T13:47:41Z tacktor: if i type (1 2 3) into a scheme, it says 1 isn't a function
2017-02-28T13:47:53Z solene: tacktor: I am new to scheme, but as lisp in general, quote just output its argument as they are : symbols
2017-02-28T13:47:56Z tacktor: so why does quoting that and evaling it not make the same claim?
2017-02-28T13:48:09Z tacktor: solene: yes, but you can eval those symbols
2017-02-28T13:48:46Z solene: tacktor: try (eval '(1 2 3))
2017-02-28T13:49:09Z solene: it will tell you that 1 isn't a known procedure
2017-02-28T13:50:16Z tacktor: solene: damn, i typed it wrong the first time
2017-02-28T13:50:21Z tacktor: works as expected then :) thanks
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2017-02-28T13:52:54Z solene: tacktor: you're welcome
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