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2017-01-01T18:17:24Z ecraven: duncanm: :)
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2017-01-01T18:25:54Z Riastradh: duncanm: lalala
2017-01-01T18:29:34Z oleo: happy new year all :)
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2017-01-01T20:23:01Z lemonpie: is it dunning-kruger to think that neither CL nor scheme directly supports what you want to do, and thus you should write your own hybrid ? and is thinking 'this sounds like a stupid idea' valid or just imposter syndrome?
2017-01-01T20:24:34Z qu1j0t3: maybe writing down 'what you want to do' would be a good first step
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2017-01-01T20:24:48Z qu1j0t3: you could get that reviewed
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2017-01-01T20:27:36Z pjb: lemonpie: probably some.  At least you should start by writing what you want in Common Lisp.  Then if really there are difficulties, you could rewrite a kernel language for your system.
2017-01-01T20:28:56Z lemonpie: the problem is, most of what is lacking is 'binary code generation on X platform'
2017-01-01T20:35:16Z pjb: lemonpie: most CL implementation can easily be ported to a new processor: you only have to write a few backend files for the new processor.  Also, some of them use a bytecode, so there's no porting, as long as you have a C compiler for that platform.
2017-01-01T20:35:33Z pjb: lemonpie: try ccl or sbcl.
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2017-01-01T21:09:55Z jackdaniel: isn't it scheme channel?
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2017-01-01T21:10:35Z jackdaniel: there are many C-bootstrapped scheme implementations (for instance chicken)
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2017-01-01T21:16:32Z pjb: Yes, but the problem is that scheme is smaller, and more diverse, so you often have to re-implement more stuff.
2017-01-01T21:17:47Z pjb: lemonpie: a good example, would be the work of drmeister with clasp; he tool ecl and hacked with llvm to integrate it with C++ libraries.
2017-01-01T21:17:59Z aeth: pjb: Which is why the ideal solution is a CL-bootstrapped Scheme, not a C-bootstrapped Scheme imo. There's less of a language mismatch for when you need to implement more things.
2017-01-01T21:18:24Z jackdaniel: I'd say everything has its place. Regarding ECL – it has c++ support fwiw
2017-01-01T21:19:01Z aeth: A CL Scheme basically just needs nil-to-false (and false-to-nil), call/cc, and guaranteed tail recursion... A tiny runtime.
2017-01-01T21:19:29Z pjb: There's pseudoscheme, but it's a r4rs.  We'd need a new implementation eg. of r7rs in CL. That'd be nice indeed.
2017-01-01T21:19:30Z jackdaniel: either way its impolite to talk bout CL here (and talk about scheme on #lisp) – ##lisp is more appropriate for cross-dialect discussion
2017-01-01T21:19:45Z qu1j0t3: impolite?!
2017-01-01T21:20:23Z jackdaniel: I'd expect a widespread bashing on #lisp if someone would argue that scheme is better than cl, I just take the same point of view but reversed
2017-01-01T21:20:30Z qu1j0t3: ah, but we're grown-ups
2017-01-01T21:20:30Z jackdaniel: is that unreasonable?
2017-01-01T21:20:35Z qu1j0t3: yes.
2017-01-01T21:20:36Z qu1j0t3: imho.
2017-01-01T21:20:42Z jackdaniel: very humble indeed ;-)
2017-01-01T21:20:58Z aeth: jackdaniel: I think the difference is that #scheme is already for cross-dialect (cross-scheme) discussion, while there are channels for Guile, Chicken, Racket (not a Scheme anymore), etc.
2017-01-01T21:21:06Z aeth: Whereas #lisp is specific for CL
2017-01-01T21:21:19Z aeth: So #scheme is already full of people who are making Schemes or choosing between Schemes
2017-01-01T21:21:31Z aeth: Because otherwise something like #racket would be more appropriate
2017-01-01T21:21:40Z jackdaniel: whatever, I've spoken my pov
2017-01-01T21:22:01Z qu1j0t3: jackdaniel: nobody is saying X is better than Y (which would also be childish)
2017-01-01T21:23:18Z qu1j0t3: it's just not a zero sum game, and most people here are likely to be polyglots anyhow.
2017-01-01T21:23:41Z jackdaniel:  /that's why I have suggested more "polyglot" channel?/
2017-01-01T21:23:53Z Riastradh: jackdaniel: Some of us have given up trying to impress upon pjb that he's sometimes rude here.
2017-01-01T21:24:03Z qu1j0t3: banning discussions taht cover more than one language is insane in any programming channel.
2017-01-01T21:24:06Z aeth: I've tried using ##lisp but it's extremely dead.
2017-01-01T21:24:39Z lemonpie: yeah, i stopped /joining, it's deader than here, and here's dead 99% of the time :/
2017-01-01T21:25:48Z jackdaniel: aeth: that may be a clue, that less people are interested in cross-dialect discussions so they join more narrow channels (rightfully expecting no offtopics), but who am I to judge ;-) I've got stuff to do anyway :)
2017-01-01T21:25:52Z jackdaniel: \o
2017-01-01T21:26:26Z lemonpie: i actually don't understand why a lot of channels seem to want *less* discussion
2017-01-01T21:27:29Z aeth: Some of the best conversations I've had in <insert language here> channels are comparing the language to <insert other language here> discussions.
2017-01-01T21:31:44Z jackdaniel: lemonpie: I find it quite reasonable – people want only discussions they care about, because noise *eats* time
2017-01-01T21:32:41Z qu1j0t3: discussions jackdaniel cares about - notes
2017-01-01T21:32:43Z qu1j0t3: noted*
2017-01-01T21:33:08Z jackdaniel: ad persona? how pitiful :)
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2017-01-02T02:07:58Z fckfreenode: does scheme have a repl?
2017-01-02T02:08:17Z lemonpie: usually
2017-01-02T02:08:46Z fckfreenode: great, thanks
2017-01-02T02:08:59Z fckfreenode: also is guile a recommended version for a beginner?
2017-01-02T02:10:09Z lemonpie: that's probably a loaded question :) for following SICP or HtdP mit scheme or guile are usually suggested (or you could use racket which has specific support for the books)
2017-01-02T02:10:36Z aeth: And if a Scheme doesn't have a read eval print loop you can basically define your own with (loop (print (eval (read))))... Well, not quite as easy as some other Lisps because you'd have to define loop and print (fairly trivial, though for a basic REPL)... Also, eval takes two arguments iirc so that's not valid Scheme.
2017-01-02T02:13:13Z fckfreenode: ah great, thanks
2017-01-02T02:14:12Z fckfreenode: finally who would you recommend SICP to? (i.e. what does SICP teach you?)
2017-01-02T02:16:07Z qu1j0t3: Here's the TOC. https://mitpress.mit.edu/sicp/full-text/book/book-Z-H-4.html#%_toc_start
2017-01-02T02:17:18Z lemonpie: i wouldn't recommend SICP personally, I think HtdP is a better beginner's introduction to scheme...
2017-01-02T02:17:32Z lemonpie: but lots of people dive right in to SICP and manage, so what would I know?
2017-01-02T02:20:33Z qu1j0t3: I didn't find it helpful in learning Scheme, so I used "Programming in Scheme" and other texts.
2017-01-02T02:20:49Z qu1j0t3: I did find it helpful in other ways
2017-01-02T02:21:10Z qu1j0t3: I don't believe SICP even pretends to teach Scheme tbh
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2017-01-02T02:22:53Z kori: SICP is more about... programming concepts, no?
2017-01-02T02:23:04Z qu1j0t3: yes.
2017-01-02T02:23:10Z lemonpie: advanced programming concepts
2017-01-02T02:23:25Z lemonpie: HtdP is the more beginner oriented MIT coursework
2017-01-02T02:28:36Z fckfreenode: lemonpie: is there a pdf version of htdp?
2017-01-02T02:29:45Z lemonpie: probably
2017-01-02T02:30:46Z lemonpie: http://disi.unal.edu.co/dacursci/sistemasycomputacion/docs/ProgComp/%5BIT%5DLISP-%20Mit%20Press%20-%20How%20To%20Design%20Programs%20(Scheme).pdf ?
2017-01-02T02:30:46Z rudybot: http://teensy.info/6uVLpeVEdu
2017-01-02T02:34:57Z fckfreenode: thanks
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2017-01-02T03:14:34Z duncanm: hello hello
2017-01-02T03:14:36Z duncanm: jao!
2017-01-02T03:15:01Z kori: hey
2017-01-02T03:15:28Z duncanm: hello kori
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2017-01-02T09:14:56Z wasamasa: funny that someone with that nick asks on freenode
2017-01-02T09:19:08Z aeth: I think that that user probably meant to say fsck instead of fck but the username was already taken... and clearly the user is greatly concerned about the integrity of freenode's filesystems.
2017-01-02T09:24:32Z wasamasa: clearly
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2017-01-02T17:34:46Z duncanm: hey jao!
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2017-01-02T17:36:32Z duncanm: jao: feliz ano nuevo! (sigh, I dunno how to type accented characers in Emacs, and now I look like an idiot)
2017-01-02T17:40:43Z pjb: F C-x 8
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2017-01-02T17:40:57Z jao: duncanm, feliz año nuevo! (C-x 8 ~ n)
2017-01-02T17:42:02Z pjb: C-x 8 ! SPC F C-x 8 ' e l i z SPC A C-x 8 ' n ~ o SPC N u e v o SPC ! --> ¡ Féliz Año Nuevo !
2017-01-02T17:42:33Z jao: pjb, feliz doesn't have a tilde
2017-01-02T17:42:42Z pjb: Damned, you'r right!
2017-01-02T17:42:47Z pjb: No accent.
2017-01-02T17:43:18Z pjb: C-x 8 C-h
2017-01-02T17:43:20Z pjb: for help.
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2017-01-02T17:50:11Z duncanm: oooh
2017-01-02T17:50:26Z duncanm: jao: felix año nuevo!
2017-01-02T17:50:40Z duncanm: oops, not felix
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2017-01-02T17:53:31Z qu1j0t3: even felix deserves a happy new year tho
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2017-01-02T17:53:40Z Riastradh: I don't see a problem with having a new year full of cats.
2017-01-02T17:54:03Z qu1j0t3: haha
2017-01-02T17:54:19Z qu1j0t3: thanks to the magical internet it's pretty much guaranteed to be
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2017-01-02T18:01:32Z duncanm: wow
2017-01-02T18:01:34Z duncanm: Riastradh!
2017-01-02T18:01:40Z duncanm: Riastradh: happy new year!
2017-01-02T18:01:43Z duncanm: it's been so long!
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2017-01-02T18:04:57Z duncanm: Riastradh: are you still in Cambridge, MA? I live up the street in Central Sq now
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2017-01-03T07:24:50Z rudybot: la la la
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2017-01-03T12:42:19Z suitofsables: Riastradh: Ah, more Cambridge people. I'm a 15 minute walk to Central Sq. What a small world. ^_^
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2017-01-03T13:50:16Z 
2017-01-03T13:50:16Z names: ccl-logbot taylan webshinra wingo kbtr taij33n foof` cjh` Guest59936 jeapostrophe aries_liuxueyang groscoe bjz turtleman bars0 cibs davorb alezost cmatei ELLIOTTCABLE M-krsiehl eska ertes M_D_K jao teleScope groovy2shoes stepnem JoshS lambda-smith terpri civodul Blukunfando ChrisOei MrBusiness ArneBab karswell drot DerGuteMoritz Menche ohama rotty makufiru mjl stephe sbauman zacts leot Khisanth jonaslund deank dan64- m1dnight2 chishiki suitofsables leppie
2017-01-03T13:50:16Z names: niklasl GGMethos marcoecc Riastradh cromachina Kkiro balkamos dcluna ym wasamasa stux|work \h peterhil DKordic dmiles shymega jcloud evhan pchrist ecraven SirDayBat snits Elronnd lemonpie amoe MorTal1ty micmus fadein mlaine clog ft nckx rmrfchik weinholt micro` aeth ski cojy C-Keen akkad rsully mach dTal askatasuna aking_ finnrobi_ dsp__ owickstrom yosafbridge` larsen profan eMBee tessier ineiros hive-mind araujo Kryo jrslepak joast arbv gabot tephra gko
2017-01-03T13:50:16Z names: ByronJohnson neuri8 r0kc4t fiddlerwoaroof XTL jackdaniel dpk paroneayea jefrite fgudin carc drdo abbe jim keemyb rjungemann cast mkmgcom[m] DeeEff qu1j0t3 juanfra CustosL1men momofarm asumu lloda gnomon tmc Blkt renopt cantstanya parsnip0 Tenhi greghendershott samth choas mrowe emerson Neet_ mikeyhc z0d stasku emma gwatt mario-goulart cky chazu eagleflo _0x5eb_ snow_bckspc cameronfr NhanH vikraman LeoNerd cross ggherdov ijp nisstyre gf3 jyc kwmiebach___
2017-01-03T13:50:16Z names: ozzloy Hijiri dsp MapMan jrdnull brendyn leo_song defanor lalex metaf5 davexunit vifino fizzie ec\ m1dnight1 stamourv kori benaiah copec rudybot tokik npr xian yrdz
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2017-01-03T16:47:30Z rain1: here's to another year of Scheme programming!
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2017-01-03T18:16:36Z rain1: is anyone in contact with olin shivers?
2017-01-03T18:16:45Z rain1: could you ask him something from me ? :P
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2017-01-04T09:03:02Z raduom: Hi. Within a syntax-rules declaration i have a keyword pattern that starts with _. What does '_' stand for?
2017-01-04T09:05:37Z wasamasa: IIRC, it repeats the name of the syntax
2017-01-04T09:05:54Z wasamasa: check out the syntax-rules guide for the mildly eccentric
2017-01-04T09:07:04Z raduom: wasamasa google knows nothing of that magic incantation
2017-01-04T09:07:24Z wasamasa: well, it's rather tricky to search for underscores with google :P
2017-01-04T09:08:09Z raduom: i noticed :P
2017-01-04T09:08:12Z wasamasa: the other one is at http://www.phyast.pitt.edu/~micheles/syntax-rules.pdf
2017-01-04T09:08:23Z raduom: i think this is what you meant: https://hipster.home.xs4all.nl/lib/scheme/gauche/define-syntax-primer.txt
2017-01-04T09:08:25Z raduom: right?
2017-01-04T09:08:42Z wasamasa: yeah
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2017-01-04T09:09:55Z wasamasa: "You may find macros written using the token "_" rather than repeating the name of the macro: […]"
2017-01-04T09:10:45Z raduom: yup. the universe makes more sense now. thanks.
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2017-01-04T10:50:25Z lemonpie: it's essentially 'don't care'
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2017-01-04T12:21:21Z raduom: the (and a b) form will return b if a and b are true?
2017-01-04T12:22:07Z raduom: (cond ((and a b) => ... passes b to the following lambda?
2017-01-04T12:26:59Z pjb: Yes.
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2017-01-04T15:56:34Z suitofsables: 5 essential books for scheme programmer wannabes?
2017-01-04T15:58:09Z pjb: http://www.schemers.org
2017-01-04T15:58:17Z pjb: http://www.schemers.org/Documents/#all-texts
2017-01-04T15:58:50Z pjb: I used The Little Schemer, and Structure and Interpretation of Computer Programming.
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2017-01-04T16:37:18Z qu1j0t3 used "Programming in Scheme" and others
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2017-01-04T16:48:26Z pierpa: Lisp in Small Pieces.
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2017-01-04T19:36:47Z justinethier: has anyone here used larceny? it benchmarks fast but I always seem to hear bad things about it
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2017-01-04T19:48:20Z wasamasa: the only thing I've heard about it on #chicken is that it's unusable for real-world software
2017-01-04T19:48:31Z wasamasa: I can't quite imagine what that does mean though
2017-01-04T19:52:55Z C-Keen: you get unusable toy programs? :)
2017-01-04T19:53:52Z wasamasa: well, considering most benchmarks are toy programs...
2017-01-04T19:55:32Z justinethier: OK
2017-01-04T19:56:20Z justinethier: I would be curious as well. maybe it is hard to integrate with C?
2017-01-04T19:56:30Z justinethier: it certainly wouldn't have the library support that chicken does
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2017-01-04T20:03:20Z wasamasa: [15:17:14] <sjamaan> Felix has been rather dismissive of Larceny
2017-01-04T20:03:20Z wasamasa: [15:17:22] <sjamaan> Apparently it's near-unusable for real world projects
2017-01-04T20:04:08Z wasamasa: and later that day
2017-01-04T20:04:11Z wasamasa: [16:13:01] <TheLemonMan> what makes larceny so fast ?
2017-01-04T20:04:11Z wasamasa: [16:13:14] <mario-goulart> It's not oriented to practical use. :-)
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2017-01-04T20:05:22Z justinethier: wasamasa: heh, thanks
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2017-01-04T20:08:39Z qu1j0t3: eh
2017-01-04T20:09:03Z qu1j0t3: still, would be nice to know why specifically
2017-01-04T20:09:10Z justinethier: agreed
2017-01-04T20:10:08Z wasamasa: ask those people on #chicken :P
2017-01-04T20:10:17Z justinethier: i have asked the chickens :)
2017-01-04T20:10:18Z wasamasa: I'm just the messenja
2017-01-04T20:11:18Z qu1j0t3: although i'm usually in favour of "try it and see"
2017-01-04T20:11:22Z C-Keen: ,sales
2017-01-04T20:11:27Z C-Keen: ah darn
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2017-01-04T20:28:06Z wasamasa: lol
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2017-01-06T05:43:49Z rjungemann: I'm reading the "The Design and Implementation of Typed Scheme" paper and I recall reading that Typed Racket originated as an extension to R5RS scheme. Google is failing me, so I wanted to ask here: are there any versions of this precursor Typed Scheme lying around?
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2017-01-06T07:07:44Z asumu: rjungemann: I kinda doubt that since R5RS's macro system isn't powerful enough to implement Typed Scheme (now Typed Racket), but samth would know as he is the author.
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2017-01-06T07:12:09Z rjungemann: I'll try and find where I saw that. I see what you're saying though, on reading the R5RS spec, it doesn't look like its macro system allows for breaking hygiene (don't quote me on that though)
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2017-01-06T07:21:21Z rjungemann: This is more just an experiment to see what the minimum is needed in order to implement a basic typing system. But I have plenty of reading to go through :¬)
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2017-01-06T07:49:40Z rjungemann: This wasn't the original reference I was thinking about, but this paper describes an R5RS script called "type-check-and-eval.scm" which of course uses a separate evaluation step. Google and Wayback Machine can't find it though
2017-01-06T07:49:46Z rjungemann: http://www.eecs.ucf.edu/~leavens/ui54/docs/typedscm.html
2017-01-06T07:51:00Z rjungemann: nm found it
2017-01-06T07:52:33Z ecraven: rjungemann: where is it?
2017-01-06T07:52:52Z rjungemann: http://www.eecs.ucf.edu/~leavens/typedscm/ I just had to hit backspace a few times on the original URL :¬P
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2017-01-06T07:56:26Z ecraven: thanks ;)
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2017-01-06T17:47:54Z rjungemann: Thanks samth, I think I misremembered
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2017-01-06T18:33:38Z rjungemann: I also wanted to say, samth, I've read 2 of your papers so far and they're getting me inspired to dig deeper into scheme and racket, so thank you :¬)
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2017-01-06T22:34:41Z ilammy: ohai!
2017-01-06T22:34:56Z ilammy: i've got a question about #1=(this notation . #1#)
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2017-01-06T22:35:26Z ilammy: it's fairly obviously stated in r7rs that it can be used for spelling out circular data
2017-01-06T22:35:51Z ilammy: but it also permits to write data with shared substructure
2017-01-06T22:36:06Z ilammy: like this: (#1=(1 2 3) #1#)
2017-01-06T22:36:42Z ilammy: so this, apparently, should yield a list with two identical (in sense of eq?) sublists
2017-01-06T22:36:51Z ilammy: but!
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2017-01-06T22:37:21Z ilammy: this notation can only be used for literal data, and r7rs requires literals to be immutable
2017-01-06T22:37:22Z wasamasa feels like the rubber duck
2017-01-06T22:37:34Z LeoNerd: quack
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2017-01-06T22:38:00Z ilammy: i've talked this through with my plushy bunny already :)
2017-01-06T22:38:21Z ilammy: but, unforuntanely, i'm not high enough for him to respond to me
2017-01-06T22:38:35Z ilammy: So!
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2017-01-06T22:39:04Z ilammy: isn't that this pretty much equivalent to just '((1 2 3) (1 2 3)) as there is no way to distinguish between them?
2017-01-06T22:39:07Z ecraven: ilammy: is the immutability a problem?
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2017-01-06T22:39:26Z ecraven: well, in the latter case, the two lists might not be eq?
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2017-01-06T22:44:04Z ilammy: oh...
2017-01-06T22:44:11Z ilammy: well
2017-01-06T22:44:25Z ilammy: now i feel dumber than that bunny
2017-01-06T22:44:59Z ilammy: for some reason i though that equal literal optimization is mandatory
2017-01-06T22:46:41Z ecraven: I might be wrong, but I don't think it is
2017-01-06T22:47:53Z ecraven: as a quick check, mit, chicken and chibi all say they are not eq?
2017-01-06T22:48:17Z ecraven: chez too
2017-01-06T22:48:21Z ecraven: guile says they are ;)
2017-01-06T22:48:36Z wasamasa: fun
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2017-01-06T22:49:45Z ecraven: hm.. I should modify my scripts to allow me to run arbitrary tests like these on all the schemes I have
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2017-01-06T22:54:23Z taylan: yeah the car and cadr of '((1 2 3) (1 2 3)) may or may not be eq? as per all scheme standards
2017-01-06T22:55:19Z taylan: the car and cadr of (#1=(x) #1#) on the other hand are definitely eq?
2017-01-06T22:56:39Z taylan: ilammy: r7rs doesn't require literals to be immutable.  it allows them to.  it says it's "an error" to mutate a literal, and in r7rs, "an error" means anything may happen.
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2017-01-06T22:57:26Z taylan: so '((x) (x)) may just be shorthand for (list '(x) '(x)) in an implementation
2017-01-06T22:57:52Z taylan: or for (list (list 'x) (list 'x)), to expand that further
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2017-01-06T23:00:19Z ilammy: taylan: oh, really
2017-01-06T23:00:32Z taylan: yarly
2017-01-06T23:00:41Z ilammy: there are two wordings in r7rs: "an error is signaled" and "it is an error" :(
2017-01-06T23:00:48Z taylan: yup
2017-01-06T23:01:19Z ilammy: the latter one apparently means that someone may be sorry for doing that
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2017-01-06T23:02:12Z taylan: nasal demons etc.
2017-01-06T23:02:16Z taylan: your monitor may blow up :)
2017-01-06T23:02:27Z taylan: would still conform to the standard!
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2017-01-06T23:03:29Z taylan: for r8rs, someone should go through the document and change all "it is an error to..." to "it invokes undefined behavior to..." :P
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2017-01-06T23:04:10Z taylan: (of course better would be to rely a lot less on the whole construct and force many more such cases to *signal* an error)
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2017-01-06T23:15:47Z rjungemann: ecraven I would totally use a script that allowed running things over multiple schemes
2017-01-06T23:16:10Z rjungemann: Would be really nice for library testing and performance testing
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2017-01-06T23:16:53Z rjungemann: I'll have to try throwing together a shell script to do this
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2017-01-07T07:00:39Z ecraven: rjungemann: look at https://github.com/ecraven/r7rs-benchmarks
2017-01-07T07:01:10Z ecraven: unfortunately, there is quite a lot of variance over schemes, so you'll run into trouble with the exact same code on multiple implementations :-/
2017-01-07T07:01:15Z ecraven: maybe r7rs will change that at some point
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2017-01-07T22:03:25Z rjungemann: ecraven Here was the quick script I threw together to run scripts on multiple schemes https://gist.github.com/881cca65856af1a8249cec13733db945 I'll take a closer look at your r7rs-benchmarks repo though, it's impressive
2017-01-07T22:04:54Z rjungemann: `cond-expand` seems to work pretty well for conditionally adding the boilerplate a particular scheme needs. Not sure if there's a better way. Biwa needs to be patched to add support for `features` and `cond-expand` though. I might try and add it myself and send a PR to the author
2017-01-07T22:07:07Z ecraven: rjungemann: thanks!
2017-01-07T22:10:03Z rjungemann: It's not particularly sophisticated yet. But I do want to start making some more general libraries, and being able to test a library on multiple schemes without needing to include any extra code in the library itself will be nice
2017-01-07T22:11:39Z ecraven: rjungemann: if that's ok for you, I'll start a github project (run-on-r7rs-schemes or something like that), and make you a contributor later?
2017-01-07T22:11:50Z rjungemann: Absolutely!
2017-01-07T22:12:00Z ecraven: it would be nice if the script tried to detect which schemes are available and automatically ran all available ones (unless told otherwise)
2017-01-07T22:12:56Z rjungemann: Yeah that'd be an easy thing to add. Except that since some schemes need some extra command-line arguments, meaning a script would probably still need to have a list of schemes to try
2017-01-07T22:13:19Z ecraven: yea, but we could hard-code that knowledge for all schemes we know about
2017-01-07T22:13:52Z ecraven: so the script should know about as many schemes as possible, there should be no need for the user to add the common ones
2017-01-07T22:13:58Z ecraven: sorry if I'm not explaining clearly
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2017-01-07T22:14:43Z rjungemann: I absolutely agree. Taking a stab at this now
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2017-01-07T22:55:36Z ecraven: how do I run shell commands on chibi?
2017-01-07T22:59:29Z rjungemann: http://synthcode.com/scheme/chibi/lib/chibi/process.html
2017-01-07T22:59:38Z ecraven: thanks!
2017-01-07T23:00:16Z rjungemann: The manual is good but I also find the chibi-scheme source code pretty readable. So I do find myself using Github search on the repo sometimes too :¬P (probably I should just clone it and grep though...)
2017-01-07T23:01:26Z ecraven: yea, I'm grepping /usr/share/chibi :D
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2017-01-07T23:27:56Z ecraven: foof`: could you add rxvt-unicode-256color to the list of TERMs that enable ANSI escapes in chibi? (or can I send a pull request somewhere that does this?)
2017-01-07T23:30:47Z foof`: sure, busy just at the moment, feel free to send a pull request or file an issue
2017-01-07T23:32:36Z ecraven: foof`: thanks, sending a PR in a minute
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2017-01-08T09:59:02Z ecraven: rjungemann: new branch, chibi, just as an example of how things might work
2017-01-08T09:59:15Z ecraven: not polished at all, needs a lot of thought and work
2017-01-08T09:59:26Z ecraven: does chibi have a nice library for handling command line arguments?
2017-01-08T10:02:22Z rjungemann: Sweet, I'll check it!
2017-01-08T10:02:23Z rjungemann: http://synthcode.com/scheme/chibi/lib/chibi/app.html
2017-01-08T10:02:32Z rjungemann: Arg parsing in chibi
2017-01-08T10:04:28Z rjungemann: I really like the approach so far!
2017-01-08T10:04:44Z rjungemann: I do think writing it in scheme is the way to go
2017-01-08T10:04:51Z ecraven: just something quick I hacked, but it should work fine
2017-01-08T10:04:55Z ecraven: not sure about windows though
2017-01-08T10:05:09Z ecraven: yea, I agree. also, chibi has come a long way!
2017-01-08T10:05:19Z rjungemann: Eh Windows support doesn't have to be MVP
2017-01-08T10:05:36Z rjungemann: It's my scheme of choice at the moment
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2017-01-08T10:06:12Z ecraven: do you use geiser with it?
2017-01-08T10:06:26Z rjungemann: I added a few additional command line arguments to my branch
2017-01-08T10:06:31Z rjungemann: Nope I'm a dirty vim user
2017-01-08T10:06:58Z ecraven: hehe, not a problem, the text object stuff in vim is great, I wish emacs had something like that
2017-01-08T10:07:03Z ecraven: have to run, catch you later
2017-01-08T10:07:41Z rjungemann: vim + tslime.vim is how I interactively poke around with scheme at the moment. I made my own branch of tslime.vim (you can find it on my GH)... the nice thing about tslime is that it just funnels text buffers to a tmux pane, and therefore doesn't care what language you're working in, as long as it has a repl of some sort
2017-01-08T10:10:18Z rjungemann: I've thought about giving emacs and evil a spin again though. Custom text objects plus writing new functionality in elisp. Not sure how it stacks up against spacemacs but I get the impression it comes with less out of the box
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2017-01-08T16:50:56Z ecraven: I think spacemacs *is* largely emacs + evil mode?
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2017-01-08T16:58:45Z wasamasa: it's someone else's config again, with an extensive focus on making evil more integrated
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2017-01-08T18:51:22Z ecraven: rjungemann: I'm not having much luck with (chibi app), it doesn't seem to work very well the way I want it to work
2017-01-08T18:51:44Z ecraven: probably I just don't understand how it is supposed to work
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2017-01-08T18:55:59Z psylence: Best scheme interpreter?
2017-01-08T18:56:04Z psylence: I've been using chicken.
2017-01-08T18:59:12Z hugo1: I personally prefer Guile
2017-01-08T19:01:11Z psylence: hugo1, I can immediately see the output with guile,right?
2017-01-08T19:01:15Z psylence: Don't know what that's called.
2017-01-08T19:01:33Z psylence: But it can give me a prompt and let's say (+ 2 3) will automatically output 5?
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2017-01-08T19:04:00Z ecraven: how do I set the exit status of a chibi script (in `main')?
2017-01-08T19:04:18Z ecraven: psylence: that's a REPL, almost every Scheme has one
2017-01-08T19:04:42Z psylence: ecraven, ah cool. So guile will have it?
2017-01-08T19:05:03Z psylence: I'm new to scheme, just started going through SICP.
2017-01-08T19:05:10Z psylence: And so far I love it.
2017-01-08T19:05:23Z JuanDaugherty: and look into racket
2017-01-08T19:05:36Z JuanDaugherty: which also has it's own channel here
2017-01-08T19:06:00Z hugo1: psylence: Yep, By default Guile even keeps track of all the return values for you
2017-01-08T19:06:08Z psylence: Cool!
2017-01-08T19:06:47Z hugo1: Isn't that one of the core part of the REPL?
2017-01-08T19:09:06Z ecraven: people suggest racket or mit scheme sometimes for sicp
2017-01-08T19:09:16Z ecraven: though almost every scheme should work, if you ask around a bit
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2017-01-08T19:13:19Z psylence: Well, guile seems straightforward and easy enough. And it should work.
2017-01-08T19:15:38Z hugo1: I used MIT-scheme for SICP
2017-01-08T19:15:46Z hugo1: But Gulie should work just fine
2017-01-08T19:15:54Z paroneayea: I used Guile for SICP
2017-01-08T19:15:56Z paroneayea: had no problems
2017-01-08T19:16:00Z hugo1: Note that you might want to import the (srfi srfi-1) module
2017-01-08T19:16:13Z hugo1: Since most "standard" functional stuff is there
2017-01-08T19:16:59Z hugo1: Racket might be good for SICP, since it has a special mode for it. Which includes the picture language
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2017-01-08T19:20:46Z psylence: Oh ok. Well, as I said, I've been using chicken and had to problems with it. So I think guile should be fine. Or if it's not, I'll just get mit-scheme.
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2017-01-08T19:22:10Z hugo1: Almost all schemes are interchangable on low level. Clojure (if that even is scheme) might be one of the few I wouldn't recomend. Since it has such different syntax
2017-01-08T19:22:26Z psylence: ah ok
2017-01-08T19:24:11Z jmd: Why is "chicken" so called?
2017-01-08T19:24:32Z C-Keen: due to a wallace and gromit movie
2017-01-08T19:24:38Z jmd: Was there an "egg" scheme which started at the same time?
2017-01-08T19:24:54Z C-Keen: a penguin disguised as a chicken
2017-01-08T19:25:26Z C-Keen: so it answers that question, chicken has been there first
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2017-01-08T19:47:02Z rjungemann: I love Clojure... I came to Scheme by way of it. I think it's a lisp-1 like Scheme, and it does share some philosophical similarities. But it has its own standard library (I'm ignoring the JVM interop pieces), and certainly doesn't implement any IEEE or RnRS functionality, nor any SRFIs
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2017-01-08T19:47:47Z wasamasa: it also departs from a number of lisp traditions
2017-01-08T19:47:58Z wasamasa: like, cons cells
2017-01-08T19:48:13Z wasamasa: or having several equality operators
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2017-01-08T19:49:39Z rjungemann: Yeah the cons thing would be surprising if coming from CL or Scheme. The equality piece comes from their philosophy of mapping as close to the host environment as possible
2017-01-08T19:50:06Z rjungemann: `boot.user=> (cons 1 2); #=> java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: Don't know how to create ISeq from: java.lang.Long`... oh...
2017-01-08T19:50:37Z drdo: Wait, there are no pairs in clojure?
2017-01-08T19:50:45Z rjungemann: Well not using cons at least
2017-01-08T19:50:59Z rjungemann: They would use hashmaps for pairs
2017-01-08T19:51:00Z wasamasa: drdo: vectors are more popular than lists even :D
2017-01-08T19:51:09Z drdo: Oh, cons just enforces the second argument to be a list?
2017-01-08T19:51:09Z wasamasa: drdo: and maps more than records
2017-01-08T19:51:11Z rjungemann: Like: `{:foo 'bar :baz 'quux}`
2017-01-08T19:51:18Z wasamasa: no, cons prepends the first argument to the second
2017-01-08T19:51:54Z rjungemann: Or if you wanted pairs you could use a list or vector: `[:foo 'bar :baz 'quux]` and pull things off the list 2 at a time
2017-01-08T19:52:13Z wasamasa: drdo: you have persistent data structures instead, the list being of pair nature is an implementation detail
2017-01-08T19:53:06Z drdo: wasamasa: I don't know what you're talking about at this point :P
2017-01-08T19:53:16Z wasamasa: drdo: think java
2017-01-08T19:53:18Z drdo: Those concerns are largely orthogonal
2017-01-08T19:54:03Z wasamasa: gone is the concern how to encode something in terms of pairs
2017-01-08T19:54:07Z wasamasa: no more alist nonsense
2017-01-08T19:54:39Z wasamasa: or the odd improper list :P
2017-01-08T19:54:48Z drdo: Sometimes you care about data representation and sometimes you don't
2017-01-08T19:55:04Z drdo: It's not a completely unimportant thing
2017-01-08T19:55:21Z rjungemann: It just means that underneath Clojure is the host environment (usually JVM, but in case of ClojureScript, it's JavaScript). At the lowest level, lists are represented by Java lists instead of using conses to represent lists. This is done partially for performance and partially to map as closely to the host environment as possible. It's just a philosophical
2017-01-08T19:55:22Z rjungemann: difference from other lisps
2017-01-08T19:55:26Z C-Keen: wasamasa: does cons also return a fresh pair :)
2017-01-08T19:55:44Z wasamasa: C-Keen: well, it doesn't matter as the data structures are immutable
2017-01-08T19:56:20Z C-Keen: ah right
2017-01-08T19:56:22Z drdo: Now that's a choice I can get behind
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2017-01-08T19:56:57Z rjungemann: There are ways of mutating data structures, but I'd say mutability is frowned upon maybe even more than in scheme. The example I am thinking of is that scheme hash tables have a mutable interface. Whereas most of the time in clojure you set a key and get a fresh hashmap back
2017-01-08T19:57:32Z wasamasa: if things get mutated, it's either one of their special-purpose data structures for concurrency or something java
2017-01-08T19:57:39Z drdo: It really depends on the structure
2017-01-08T19:57:51Z drdo: Some structures would be really silly to use in an immutable way
2017-01-08T19:58:08Z rjungemann: To get around this, clojurists sometimes like to use threading macros (such as `->` and `->>`) to chain operations on immutable data structures
2017-01-08T19:58:10Z drdo: Involving large copies
2017-01-08T19:58:44Z rjungemann: I have implementations of some of the common threading macros in scheme but at least `-<>` requires breaking hygiene
2017-01-08T19:58:44Z drdo: rjungemann: What do those macros do?
2017-01-08T19:59:57Z rjungemann: Basically allow for chaining operations. In the case of `->`, you have an object that you pass into the threading macro, and each subsequent like is as if the previous line was fed in as the first argument to the next method
2017-01-08T20:00:21Z rjungemann: I'll try and throw together an example
2017-01-08T20:00:44Z drdo: Isn't that just function composition?
2017-01-08T20:01:00Z rjungemann: Yes but it's sort of turned inside out to make it easier to read and to add additional arguments
2017-01-08T20:01:15Z rjungemann: It's like comparing using `.` methods to unbound functions in JS
2017-01-08T20:01:27Z drdo: inside-out?
2017-01-08T20:01:33Z drdo: Example please! :P
2017-01-08T20:02:02Z rjungemann: Like, suppose you wanted to add an additional operation at the end. You can do that, instead of wrapping the whole thing in another function. Which would require you to read your functions from the inside, going out
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2017-01-08T20:02:28Z rjungemann: So instead of (h (g (f x))) you would say (-> x (f) (g) (h))
2017-01-08T20:03:06Z rjungemann: Sorry, this is all rather a small detail, not some big language design thing
2017-01-08T20:03:15Z wasamasa: (->> (range) (take 3) (map inc)) ;=> (1 2 3)
2017-01-08T20:03:31Z wasamasa: which translates to (map inc (take 3 (range)))
2017-01-08T20:03:49Z drdo: That's literally function composition
2017-01-08T20:03:56Z rjungemann: Yes, yes it is
2017-01-08T20:04:13Z rjungemann: I was just mentioning this as a common idiom I've seen in clojure code, not to say "omg this is the most amazing thng, you must use it"
2017-01-08T20:04:14Z pjb: ((o h g f) x)
2017-01-08T20:04:19Z drdo: I guess with the special thing on the first argument
2017-01-08T20:04:25Z wasamasa: or the last
2017-01-08T20:04:41Z wasamasa: it helps cleaning up code that would otherwise require a lengthy let
2017-01-08T20:04:45Z drdo: rjungemann: That's a common "idiom" in every functional-ish language
2017-01-08T20:04:48Z rjungemann: Or with `-<>`, pass it anywhere in the argument list as a special variable, `<>`
2017-01-08T20:04:56Z ecraven: leppie: you're working on ironscheme, right? is there a particular reason it does not return exit status != 0, even if it stops with an exception / error?
2017-01-08T20:04:56Z rjungemann: I'm not saying it's special
2017-01-08T20:05:04Z wasamasa: which reminds me, clojure got rid of the let/let* distinction
2017-01-08T20:05:18Z rjungemann: Yes of course, a Haskell user would say, "that's just a really watered-down monad" or something
2017-01-08T20:05:19Z drdo: wasamasa: It's all just let* now?
2017-01-08T20:05:26Z wasamasa: drdo: yeah, except they name it let
2017-01-08T20:05:38Z wasamasa: drdo: let* is the internal thing the macro expands to
2017-01-08T20:06:40Z wasamasa: I'm not a fan of their if-let not being equivalent to and-let*
2017-01-08T20:06:45Z rjungemann: Literally the only point I was trying to make was, Scheme (and I'm not saying it's bad) leans a little more toward mutability than Clojure, that's it
2017-01-08T20:06:53Z wasamasa: it only permits one binding ;_;
2017-01-08T20:07:07Z drdo: rjungemann: right
2017-01-08T20:07:41Z drdo: racket seems to be going in the direction of immutability as well
2017-01-08T20:09:14Z drdo: wasamasa: I honestly feel we should just take let=letrec
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2017-01-08T20:10:45Z drdo: I don't think I've ever had a case where let would work but letrec wouldn't
2017-01-08T20:12:56Z ecraven: rjungemann: new version pushed to branch `chibi'
2017-01-08T20:13:03Z rjungemann: Nice! Taking a look
2017-01-08T20:13:23Z ecraven: also, it would be nice to get all schemes to implement r7rs :p
2017-01-08T20:13:33Z rjungemann: I'm partial to r7rs :¬)
2017-01-08T20:13:41Z rjungemann: Wish it had lower-level macros in the spec though...
2017-01-08T20:13:50Z leppie: ecraven: will have to check, but I am sure it is supposed to :D
2017-01-08T20:13:51Z ecraven: many do not cope well with:    (import (scheme base) (scheme write)) (display "foo")
2017-01-08T20:14:11Z rjungemann: If they have (cond-expand) you can selectively import, see my test script
2017-01-08T20:14:14Z ecraven: leppie: try just (display "foo") in a file, then run  ironscheme foo.scm
2017-01-08T20:14:27Z rjungemann: I feel like cond-expand is the minimum we will be able to handle
2017-01-08T20:14:30Z rjungemann: Feature-wise
2017-01-08T20:14:47Z leppie: ecraven about to go to sleep, will check tomorrow
2017-01-08T20:14:51Z ecraven: leppie: thanks!
2017-01-08T20:14:56Z rjungemann: Biwa doesn't have it... it's on my list to send out a PR to add it
2017-01-08T20:15:19Z ecraven: hm.. that's not even in aur,
2017-01-08T20:15:24Z ecraven: I'll need to add a PKGBUILD
2017-01-08T20:15:34Z ecraven: does it run on node?
2017-01-08T20:15:58Z ecraven: ah, seems it does
2017-01-08T20:17:26Z rjungemann: It's missing some r7rs features but they appear to want to closely support r7rs
2017-01-08T20:18:49Z rjungemann: drdo I have some gists you might find interesting... the first is the `->` and `-<>` macros implemented with `er-macro-transformer`, the second is a simple lenses library for transforming immutable structures https://gist.github.com/rjungemann/6dd373fcf697cc288c52e48271bf9842 and https://gist.github.com/rjungemann/6dd373fcf697cc288c52e48271bf9842
2017-01-08T20:19:11Z rjungemann: Oops, first should be https://gist.github.com/rjungemann/009898a5e58ef2c8b6105fbd6580e45a
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2017-01-08T20:21:39Z ecraven: hm.. at some point, I tried to implement actual lenses-as-lambdas in scheme, so you get lens composition by function composition
2017-01-08T20:21:44Z ecraven: it even kind of worked :D
2017-01-08T20:21:56Z ecraven: but I didn't understand the higher-order-optics, so I stopped there
2017-01-08T20:23:05Z ecraven: ah, come on, chez doesn't have cond-expand ..
2017-01-08T20:24:22Z rjungemann: Yeah... scheme isn't the best language for defining functor-like objects... afaict it needs some form of typed-dispatch... Racket (or better yet Typed Racket) would work well for this... I did throw together a scheme version of clojure's defmulti for runtime multiple dispatch, but didn't get much further than that
2017-01-08T20:24:41Z rjungemann: Aaah cond-expand is r7rs though -_-
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2017-01-08T20:24:56Z rjungemann: Does it have `features`?
2017-01-08T20:25:24Z rjungemann: Are we just going to end up sending patches to virtually every r7rs scheme impl? Haha
2017-01-08T20:28:59Z rjungemann: We may need some shim functionality... I don't know chez well (just installed it) but it appears we should be able to do something like `chez -b chez-shim.scm -s` for the command to run
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2017-01-08T20:29:57Z rjungemann: Mmm it's a superset of R6RS scheme... may need some divergent functionality for R6Rs then
2017-01-08T20:34:25Z ecraven: I do something like the shim in r7rs-benchmarks
2017-01-08T20:34:28Z ecraven: not pretty, though :-/
2017-01-08T20:37:41Z ecraven: rjungemann: racket for example wants a "module definition" at the beginning (and isn't going to be r7rs anytime soon, I think)
2017-01-08T20:39:14Z ecraven: interesting, foment prints its error output to neither stdout nor stderr :)
2017-01-08T20:40:19Z ecraven: or rather, not in a way that works with chibi's process abstraction..
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2017-01-08T20:52:24Z rjungemann: Re racket, a different form of shim may be needed... like maybe we can use like a template file to template the script into to add whatever preamble is needed
2017-01-08T20:52:39Z ecraven: that's what I did, add a custom pre- and postlude
2017-01-08T20:52:47Z ecraven: but as I said, it really isn't very nice :-/
2017-01-08T20:53:08Z ecraven: especially since you don't know which libraries something needs... maybe we should just say we only support r7rs schemes :-/
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2017-01-08T20:53:27Z rjungemann: Well handling R6RS schemes and Racket, neither of which are strictly R7RS, will require a little extra work... probably worth doing, maybe as a post-MVP worst case
2017-01-08T20:54:07Z rjungemann: I'll look into foment... it must be piping to one or the other. Worst case we can have bash intercept the stderr stream and prefix it with something, then pipe it back to stdout so we can filter and do something with it from chibi. There has to be a way to make it work
2017-01-08T20:54:34Z ecraven: I straced it, it doesn't seem to be doing anything weird, might be chibi's fault somehow
2017-01-08T20:54:35Z rjungemann: Oooh foment is a Windows scheme... forgot about that
2017-01-08T20:54:44Z ecraven: hm.. it runs fine on linux, I think?
2017-01-08T20:54:51Z ecraven: at least I definitely do not run it on windows :D
2017-01-08T20:54:58Z rjungemann: Got it
2017-01-08T20:55:08Z rjungemann: If it runs on OS X I'll make a homebrew recipe for it :¬)
2017-01-08T20:55:31Z rjungemann: If it runs on Linux it has to be putting the stream somewhere accessible
2017-01-08T20:56:06Z rjungemann: I've done nasty tricks with tee and process substitution before
2017-01-08T20:56:54Z ecraven: run ./run-on-schemes.scm -s -i foment /tmp/foo.scm   (which only contains (display "foo"))
2017-01-08T20:57:12Z ecraven: you'll see nothing in stderr / stdout, but if you run foment /tmp/foo.scm by hand, it definitely displays something
2017-01-08T20:58:16Z rjungemann: Cool I'll look
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2017-01-08T22:13:19Z rjungemann: I'm trying to make a Homebrew formula for foment, to make it easier to install on OS X. I am wondering if anyone has any suggestions for this recipe? https://github.com/Homebrew/homebrew-core/pull/8627
2017-01-08T22:13:52Z wasamasa: not mentioning popularity?
2017-01-08T22:13:54Z wasamasa: SCNR
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2017-01-08T22:16:43Z rjungemann: You're probably right. For some reason my thought process was, "the average Homebrew maintainer probably knows nothing about scheme, how can I make this recipe somehow seem more legit"
2017-01-08T22:16:59Z wasamasa: I mean, it has six stars
2017-01-08T22:17:06Z rjungemann: Hahaha
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2017-01-08T22:17:16Z rjungemann: Fine I'll star it and make it 7
2017-01-08T22:17:16Z wasamasa: I've only heard of it recently
2017-01-08T22:17:39Z wasamasa: :>
2017-01-08T22:17:41Z rjungemann: I mean I don't have any stake in foment, just would be nice to be able to install a number of schemes from homebrew
2017-01-08T22:18:05Z wasamasa: mhh
2017-01-08T22:18:16Z wasamasa: I planned to install chibi if I ever feel like writing purely r7rs code
2017-01-08T22:18:44Z rjungemann: <3 chibi
2017-01-08T22:19:19Z rjungemann: I think the main draw of foment is that it is embeddable from VC++ and so is supposed to be really good if you want to use scheme in Windows
2017-01-08T22:19:30Z wasamasa: :D
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2017-01-09T07:23:46Z ecraven: rjungemann: would you mind if I made s-expressions the default output format?
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2017-01-09T09:07:53Z rjungemann: Sure! Sounds good to me
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2017-01-09T10:20:16Z ecraven: ah, geiser and slime overwrite each other's emacs bindings :-/
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2017-01-09T13:06:44Z ecraven: rjungemann: new version, support for some compiling schemes
2017-01-09T13:07:15Z ecraven: I'm really not sure what to do about non-r7rs schemes :-/
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2017-01-09T15:06:11Z rjungemann: My idea was template files, that you can sorta template your script into. That way, shims can be defined. If at least cond-expand can be defined, me may be off to the races
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2017-01-09T15:08:06Z rjungemann: I can experiment a little later today. It would be best if cond-expand can be defined in terms of syntax-rules which I think all rnrs schemes support
2017-01-09T15:08:08Z ecraven: hm.. good plan, I'll think about it on the commute :D
2017-01-09T15:08:28Z ecraven: well, it might be enough to define import to do nothing at all on many non-r7rs-schemes
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2017-01-09T15:15:34Z rjungemann: Ooh another idea is to have separate scheme-sets for each standard we wish to support
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2017-01-09T15:18:28Z ecraven: I think r7rs (with minor shims) is the way to go
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2017-01-09T15:44:38Z rjungemann: Yeah I think that's good, especially for performance testing and small scripts
2017-01-09T15:45:44Z rjungemann: My original script has a `-f` option for passing a file containing a list of scheme definitions. Possibly I could add that into your script later, and that way the schemes to run a script against could be customized?
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2017-01-09T18:32:46Z ecraven: rjungemann: if  -i mit,gauche,guile  is good enough for you, that already works
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2017-01-09T18:34:12Z ecraven: foof`: thanks for merging my minor fixes :D if I were to somehow add support for only outputting (chibi term ansi) colors if the terminal is interactive, would that be mergeable in theory?
2017-01-09T18:34:50Z groovy2shoes: *shell is interactive
2017-01-09T18:34:51Z groovy2shoes: :p
2017-01-09T18:35:10Z ecraven: well, stdout in this case
2017-01-09T18:35:18Z ecraven: so that it only outputs colors if not redirected
2017-01-09T18:35:51Z groovy2shoes: speaking of non-interactive terminals, my VT 520 has just been sitting there collecting dust for a while...
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2017-01-09T18:36:50Z rjungemann: ecraven That would specify which schemes in the list to run... (equivalent to my `-l`) option... the other option would be to define a bunch of scheme definitions in a file (what command to execute, etc.)
2017-01-09T18:36:54Z groovy2shoes: need to figure out why I keep getting some garbage glyphs when using tmux...  I wouldn't guess tmux would introduce *that* much bandwidth overhead...
2017-01-09T18:37:17Z ecraven: rjungemann: I'm not sure I understand, you mean the script to execute?
2017-01-09T18:38:02Z rjungemann: So like in your run-on-schemes command, you have a bunch of schemes, each of which has a name and a command builder lambda. This would be a way to pass a .scm file with a definition like this
2017-01-09T18:38:17Z rjungemann: So maybe you'd have an r7rs-definitions.scm, an r6rs-definitions.scm, etc.
2017-01-09T18:38:35Z rjungemann: Or a completely custom one (like if a user has a scheme they want to use, but don't want to fork the repo)
2017-01-09T18:39:00Z ecraven: would it do more than just select which schemes to run?
2017-01-09T18:39:22Z ecraven: oh, you mean it would automatically prepend the file contents to each script?
2017-01-09T18:39:27Z ecraven: like a prelude?
2017-01-09T18:39:47Z rjungemann: Well you have a hard-coded list of schemes in your run-on-schemes command. But what if a user has a scheme they want to use that is not in the list
2017-01-09T18:40:04Z ecraven: add it to the script ;p
2017-01-09T18:40:08Z ecraven: better yet, make a PR
2017-01-09T18:40:30Z ecraven: hm.. that reminds me, I need to add quite a lot of docstrings
2017-01-09T18:41:26Z rjungemann: I'll submit a PR with what I have in mind and you can see what you think :¬P
2017-01-09T18:41:42Z ecraven: cool
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2017-01-09T18:42:03Z rjungemann: I just feel like there will be situations where for example, a user has a pet scheme they want to use but aren't ready to put it in the list... also after dealing with Homebrew, I know that repos always have politics around what they will allow for inclusion or not
2017-01-09T18:42:27Z ecraven: it might be worth it to include standard "preludes" for all non-r7rs schemes to implement at least a bit of r7rs, to make them run some parts of r7rs-small
2017-01-09T18:42:50Z rjungemann: Yeah that makes sense
2017-01-09T18:43:14Z ecraven: just so things that worked in r5rs still work with (import (scheme base)) as the first line, even on non-r7rs schemes
2017-01-09T18:43:50Z ecraven: or even all the things in r7rs-benchmarks
2017-01-09T18:44:01Z ecraven: they are mostly portable across r{5,6,7}rs
2017-01-09T18:45:15Z rjungemann: I can probably help with the shim scripts. I have some random function and macro definitions for some common things already
2017-01-09T18:48:04Z ecraven: r7rs-benchmarks already includes a few things
2017-01-09T18:48:20Z ecraven: hm.. maybe we should just start making PRs for non-conforming schemes :p
2017-01-09T18:50:11Z rjungemann: Whee my foment Homebrew formula got rejected
2017-01-09T18:50:26Z ecraven: ah, why?
2017-01-09T18:50:31Z rjungemann: Hashtag politics lol
2017-01-09T18:50:43Z wasamasa: government by twitter
2017-01-09T18:50:51Z ecraven: hm.. nice thing about arch aur, you just add whatever
2017-01-09T18:50:58Z rjungemann: jk they don't accept "HEAD-only" formula... right now foment is only installable from a Github repo, and only has a master branch
2017-01-09T18:51:38Z rjungemann: I can make a "tap" for it which is like a discoverable Homebrew branch
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2017-01-09T18:57:18Z rjungemann: `brew install rjungemann/core/foment --HEAD` for now isn't so terrible. Maybe I should start a `schemes` tap
2017-01-09T18:58:03Z ecraven: just switch to arch linux :p
2017-01-09T19:00:10Z wasamasa: lol
2017-01-09T19:02:27Z wasamasa: I did that about five years ago
2017-01-09T19:02:32Z rjungemann: When my 11" Macbook Air dies I may just do that
2017-01-09T19:02:41Z wasamasa: and sold the macbook
2017-01-09T19:03:02Z rjungemann: Apple discontinued the 11" Air which was my favorite
2017-01-09T19:05:24Z rjungemann: Any OS X / Homebrew users have any schemes they would want to be able to `brew install` that you currently can't?
2017-01-09T19:06:06Z qu1j0t3: rjungemann: has Chez been done?
2017-01-09T19:06:16Z ecraven: jcowan has a list of schemes somewhere, it would be nice do have a list of "active" schemes
2017-01-09T19:06:54Z rjungemann: There are two, both are in taps. Looks like one depends on X11 and the other is an OSX .app: homebrew/x11/chezscheme and Caskroom/cask/petite-chez-scheme
2017-01-09T19:09:10Z rjungemann: Ooh if you can find that list, I will check each one. I'll start with your r7rs-benchmarks repo for now
2017-01-09T19:10:22Z rjungemann: Re chez, it would be nice to be able to install a version with no dependency on X11... I'll look into this too
2017-01-09T19:15:23Z gwatt: http://termbin.com/4t0j <- removes LIBX11 from chez
2017-01-09T19:17:12Z rjungemann: Thanks gwatt!
2017-01-09T19:18:08Z rjungemann: I was going to fork the formula and allow this as an option, that way it can be installed with or without X11
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2017-01-09T19:51:30Z teurastaja: hey im using gauche in r7rs mode and i cant find the procedure 'compose
2017-01-09T19:51:37Z teurastaja: it is in the doc
2017-01-09T19:51:46Z teurastaja: but i cant find what to import
2017-01-09T20:01:26Z teurastaja: hello?
2017-01-09T20:03:18Z rjungemann: I just `brew install gauche` and ran `gosh`, and `compose` is defined
2017-01-09T20:04:03Z rjungemann: Also, creating a `test.scm` containing just `(display compose)`, then running `gosh test.scm` returns `#<closure (compose . fns)>` as expected
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2017-01-09T20:07:08Z teurastaja: rjungemann: just found out where it is but you didnt find the right one; i said r7rs mode ;)
2017-01-09T20:07:36Z teurastaja: i had to (import (only (gauche base) compose))
2017-01-09T20:07:48Z teurastaja: never had to import gauche base thats weird
2017-01-09T20:08:08Z rjungemann: I don't think R7RS defines `compose`
2017-01-09T20:08:31Z rjungemann: The R7RS spec has an example that literally defines `compose` merely as an example, and doesn't seem to be in the list of functions
2017-01-09T20:08:33Z teurastaja: no they dont but gauche does however it had to be found
2017-01-09T20:09:18Z rjungemann: I'm not a gauche expert, but I would assume that if you switch into R7RS mode that probably only R7RS functions would be available unless otherwwise imported
2017-01-09T20:09:23Z teurastaja: i just discovered gauche supported partial applications i wonder how efficient they are since its not lazy
2017-01-09T20:10:00Z teurastaja: its one of the reasons i started to learn haskell seriously: partial applications
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2017-01-09T20:11:26Z rjungemann: Neat! With macros (at least, unhygienic ones) it should be possible to define virtually any control structure you would imagine, although it may not be simple :¬)
2017-01-09T20:11:30Z teurastaja: i wonder how efficient gauches partial applications are. are you good at benchmarking?
2017-01-09T20:11:56Z teurastaja: gauche provides pa$ for partial application
2017-01-09T20:12:05Z rjungemann: ecraven is the r7rs-benchmarks maintainer so I'd ask him :¬)
2017-01-09T20:12:21Z teurastaja: ecraven: you there?
2017-01-09T20:13:11Z teurastaja: can i provide some feedback for the new red edition?
2017-01-09T20:13:14Z teurastaja: wtf?
2017-01-09T20:13:45Z teurastaja: comparators, hash tables, sorting libraries... everyone has that so whats with the renaming?
2017-01-09T20:14:11Z teurastaja: and what about immutable lists: are they compatible with anything?
2017-01-09T20:14:42Z teurastaja: why arent lists immutable by default unless set! is explicitly used?
2017-01-09T20:15:09Z teurastaja: why arent they randomly accessible?
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2017-01-09T20:15:41Z rjungemann: Scheme is a small language, and there is a process by which new editions of the language are defined. In the meantime different implementations often implement their own versions of features. r7rs-large, at least as far as I understand, is an attempt to set some ground rules for implementations to follow
2017-01-09T20:15:46Z ecraven: teurastaja: now
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2017-01-09T20:16:12Z lemonpie: because people got pissed at r6rs, which defined a lot of this kind of thing sensibly
2017-01-09T20:16:35Z ecraven: lemonpie: and very prescriptively ;p
2017-01-09T20:16:37Z teurastaja: ecraven: how efficient is gauches 'pa$ and 'compose for partial application?
2017-01-09T20:16:45Z ecraven: no idea ;p
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2017-01-09T20:17:21Z teurastaja: ecraven: how efficient can they theoretically be in a strictly evaluated language like scheme?
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2017-01-09T20:18:08Z teurastaja: oh and can partial applications be a builtin scheme feature? theoretically
2017-01-09T20:18:17Z ecraven: no idea either :-/
2017-01-09T20:18:26Z ecraven: also, efficient compared to what?
2017-01-09T20:18:40Z teurastaja: ecraven: compared to not using them
2017-01-09T20:18:57Z lemonpie: using something instead of nothing is generally not efficient :)
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2017-01-09T20:19:38Z lemonpie: (yes, LDAR is the epitome of human efficiency)
2017-01-09T20:19:59Z teurastaja: lemonpie: if you dont use them you HAVE to use something else: full application
2017-01-09T20:20:17Z rjungemann: It should be fairly easy to make some benchmarks, either using UNIX `time`, or R7RS `current-jiffies` etc. or perhaps Gauche has some timing extensions
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2017-01-09T20:20:26Z lemonpie: i mean, you could benchmark pa$ against cut or something *shrug*
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2017-01-09T20:20:45Z teurastaja: i dont know how to use cut and im not interested
2017-01-09T20:20:49Z ecraven: it seems gauche has current-jiffy
2017-01-09T20:21:44Z ecraven: teurastaja: where is documentation on pa$ in the gauche manua
2017-01-09T20:21:46Z ecraven: l
2017-01-09T20:22:16Z rjungemann: I found some docs but they're in Japanese: https://practical-scheme.net/wiliki/wiliki.cgi?Gauche%3A%24 Haskell docs: https://wiki.haskell.org/Partial_application
2017-01-09T20:22:30Z wasamasa: gauche is after all, a japanese scheme
2017-01-09T20:22:32Z teurastaja: http://practical-scheme.net/gauche/man/gauche-refe/Function-and-Syntax-Index.html#Function-and-Syntax-Index_fn_letter-P
2017-01-09T20:22:32Z rudybot: http://teensy.info/fujYdue8e2
2017-01-09T20:22:33Z rjungemann: Honestly it probably would be an illuminating exercise to set up a benchmark yourself
2017-01-09T20:23:13Z teurastaja: i dont know how to make meaningful benchmarks
2017-01-09T20:24:07Z teurastaja: id also like to know why scheme partial applications are less efficient than haskell (because they are)
2017-01-09T20:24:08Z ecraven: I'm not sure what you are expecting here, it seems pa$ is just syntax for a lambda
2017-01-09T20:24:24Z rjungemann: Well for a simple start, using UNIX time and running a script multiple times, averaging the times and possibly excluding outliers
2017-01-09T20:24:28Z ecraven: I'd guess because haskell is lazy
2017-01-09T20:25:03Z ecraven: (pa$ + 3) seems the same as (lambda x (apply + 3 x))
2017-01-09T20:25:13Z ecraven: there's no particular reason why it should be more efficient
2017-01-09T20:25:30Z ecraven: unless the compiler does something to it, which is not much easier in haskell than in scheme, I'd guess
2017-01-09T20:25:39Z teurastaja: you mean (lambda (x) (apply + 3 x)) ?
2017-01-09T20:25:49Z ecraven: teurastaja: no, I mean what I said
2017-01-09T20:25:50Z teurastaja: sorry
2017-01-09T20:25:53Z teurastaja: my bad
2017-01-09T20:26:01Z teurastaja: read too fast
2017-01-09T20:26:15Z ecraven: at least that's what the manual says it reduces to
2017-01-09T20:27:06Z ecraven: I don't think there's any particular reason the compiler couldn't partially evaluate (cut + 1 <>) the same way haskell might do
2017-01-09T20:27:12Z ecraven: it just doesn't look as nice in scheme :-/
2017-01-09T20:27:20Z teurastaja: so its like a macro that binds free occurences of arguments in a list to identifiers found in a list in an apply in turn?
2017-01-09T20:27:57Z teurastaja: ecraven: i dont know cut syntax but pa$ looks nicer doesnt it?
2017-01-09T20:28:33Z ecraven: (+ 1) is definitely nicer than (cut + 1 <>) or (pa$ + 1)
2017-01-09T20:28:42Z rjungemann: How do you know it's less efficient than in Haskell without doing any sort of analysis?
2017-01-09T20:28:51Z ecraven: you can't use pa$ to insert the argument
2017-01-09T20:28:53Z ecraven: in the middle
2017-01-09T20:29:22Z teurastaja: rjungemann: because its what haskell advertises
2017-01-09T20:29:28Z lemonpie: of course, the advantage of cut is when the argument(s) you want to retain isn't the last argument(s)
2017-01-09T20:29:29Z ecraven: rjungemann: gauche is an interpreter, haskell compiles and probably does some sort of partial evaluation. I don't know, but I'm pretty sure haskell wins here
2017-01-09T20:30:18Z teurastaja: another question: why arent scheme strings lists of chars damnit?!
2017-01-09T20:30:19Z ecraven: there's a paper about partial evaluation in chez, and the source code for the chez compiler is available openly
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2017-01-09T20:30:27Z ecraven: teurastaja: why should they be?
2017-01-09T20:30:45Z ecraven: there are at least as many reasons *not* to make strings lists of characters as there are for it
2017-01-09T20:30:57Z ecraven: isn't that why haskell has so many different types of strings?
2017-01-09T20:31:04Z teurastaja: ecraven: because its more generalized to use list operations on strings arbitrarily without caring
2017-01-09T20:31:25Z ecraven: teurastaja: scheme is not polymorphic, there is no general "sequence" type
2017-01-09T20:31:34Z ecraven: unlike common lisp, dylan, haskell and many others
2017-01-09T20:31:55Z ecraven: there, haskell string problems: http://www.alexeyshmalko.com/2015/haskell-string-types/
2017-01-09T20:32:09Z teurastaja: ecraven: obviously thats something most implementations try to define themselves: sequences
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2017-01-09T20:32:50Z ecraven: teurastaja: I don't know of any scheme implementation that does this.. (length "foobar") does not work in any scheme I know of
2017-01-09T20:32:55Z teurastaja: why cant they be just overloaded?
2017-01-09T20:32:58Z ecraven: there was one, trying to remember its name...
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2017-01-09T20:33:07Z ecraven: teurastaja: hysterical raisins
2017-01-09T20:33:35Z ecraven: oak lisp, that had polymorphic `length' and so on
2017-01-09T20:34:50Z teurastaja: ecraven: srfi 1 compared to Data.List
2017-01-09T20:35:07Z teurastaja: which do you prefer?
2017-01-09T20:35:14Z ecraven: I don't know data.list well enough
2017-01-09T20:35:27Z ecraven: I'm not saying polymorphic functions would be bad, they just aren't what Scheme has right now
2017-01-09T20:35:50Z ecraven: from a quick look, it doesn't seem data.list is that different from srfi-1
2017-01-09T20:36:47Z rjungemann: I mean, why not just use Haskell then?
2017-01-09T20:36:49Z ecraven: there, oaklisp: http://paste.lisp.org/display/336177
2017-01-09T20:37:13Z teurastaja: rjungemann: im learning it
2017-01-09T20:37:14Z ecraven: rjungemann: why not? people can use whatever language they like best ;) me, I chose scheme over haskell
2017-01-09T20:37:47Z rjungemann: Yeah, I'm just saying, if one radically prefers the language design of another language, why not just use that language?
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2017-01-09T20:38:33Z lemonpie: rjungemann: i guess if you like the architecture of A but prefer the syntax of B
2017-01-09T20:39:10Z teurastaja: im slowly moving away from scheme probably because a decade of waiting brought a few renaming of sorting libraries and the like. almost every new scheme feature copies on haskell but does it less well
2017-01-09T20:39:16Z ecraven: https://wiki.haskell.org/Haskell_Lisp
2017-01-09T20:39:38Z ecraven: teurastaja: scheme could use a good optics library, well-integrated with records and things
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2017-01-09T20:40:42Z ecraven: Liskell and Lisk seem to be Haskell-in-sexp-syntax
2017-01-09T20:40:58Z wasamasa: there was a submission on the topic on lobsters
2017-01-09T20:40:59Z wasamasa: rascal
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2017-01-09T20:41:08Z teurastaja: i could write some new algorithms scheme doesnt have but theres no concensus for anything new. only division
2017-01-09T20:41:13Z lemonpie: yeah, but probably unusable if my experience with older haskell codebases is anything to go on
2017-01-09T20:41:40Z lemonpie: to be fair, lisk looks like it's been updated only 3 years ago, so should be Haskell 2010 safe
2017-01-09T20:41:44Z ecraven: teurastaja: that is not exactly true. r7rs-large might bring systems closer together. it's too early to tell, I'd say
2017-01-09T20:42:05Z teurastaja: ecraven: red edition is simply ridiculous
2017-01-09T20:42:09Z ecraven: start sending PRs to your favorite schemes to implement r7rs-large
2017-01-09T20:42:12Z ecraven: teurastaja: why?
2017-01-09T20:42:21Z ecraven: (not saying it couldn't be better, but it also could be worse)
2017-01-09T20:42:46Z ecraven: wasamasa: rascal is now hackett
2017-01-09T20:42:55Z wasamasa: lol
2017-01-09T20:43:23Z teurastaja: come on comparators, hash tables, sort and about 5-6 flavors of lists and queues
2017-01-09T20:43:36Z teurastaja: what else?
2017-01-09T20:43:47Z teurastaja: its just renaming some libraries
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2017-01-09T20:43:51Z ecraven: what were you hoping for in the red edition?
2017-01-09T20:43:56Z ecraven: there's 6 more to come, or so
2017-01-09T20:44:12Z teurastaja: we desperately need graphics
2017-01-09T20:44:37Z teurastaja: gauches gtk2 is outdated and unusable
2017-01-09T20:44:51Z teurastaja: we need a networking stack
2017-01-09T20:45:00Z ecraven: well, is there *any* language with multiple implementations that has a standard graphics library?
2017-01-09T20:45:03Z lemonpie: graphics in a language spec? no
2017-01-09T20:45:22Z lemonpie: ecraven: logo ?
2017-01-09T20:45:24Z ecraven: all the schemes I've used had almost identical networking procedures, they are always just a thin veneer over C
2017-01-09T20:45:34Z ecraven: lemonpie: hehe, well, there the language *is* the graphics
2017-01-09T20:45:40Z lemonpie: smalltalk maybe
2017-01-09T20:46:00Z teurastaja: come on... just gtk extension
2017-01-09T20:46:04Z teurastaja: or qt
2017-01-09T20:46:10Z lemonpie: its a really bad idea because it codifies the 'state of the art' at about 5 years before the language spec is solidified
2017-01-09T20:46:10Z teurastaja: or whatever
2017-01-09T20:46:13Z ecraven: teurastaja: just update the existing one for gauche
2017-01-09T20:46:24Z ecraven: I've done 3 or 4 different ones for mit scheme, to see what works
2017-01-09T20:46:37Z teurastaja: ecraven: i cant even figure out how to use it!
2017-01-09T20:46:40Z ecraven: qt is hard, being c++
2017-01-09T20:46:44Z wasamasa: they want to mechanically translate cairo for C++
2017-01-09T20:47:01Z lemonpie: nana is probably a good base, since it uses lambda instead of C callbacks
2017-01-09T20:47:02Z ecraven: translate from what? c?
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2017-01-09T20:47:51Z ecraven: never heard of nana, interesting
2017-01-09T20:47:59Z ecraven: though being c
2017-01-09T20:47:59Z ecraven: =
2017-01-09T20:48:04Z ecraven: c++ makes it a bit useless for ffis
2017-01-09T20:48:05Z ecraven: ;-/
2017-01-09T20:48:17Z lemonpie: yeah, you'd need shims and stuff, it'd be a pain
2017-01-09T20:48:40Z ecraven: or do like clasp, just implement a scheme based on llvm and get c++ interoperability ;P
2017-01-09T20:49:15Z ecraven: teurastaja: also, you are free to start a networking srfi that might be included in r7rs-large
2017-01-09T20:49:40Z teurastaja: id like a sequencing library, function composition and partial evaluation, combinators, bags and sets that are usable with other data structures, id like to take every scheme type and make it a generalized interface for adding new ones
2017-01-09T20:49:41Z lemonpie: UI libraries are really piss poor right now anyway
2017-01-09T20:50:01Z ecraven: jcowan: any signs or plans for a networking srfi?
2017-01-09T20:50:10Z ecraven: lemonpie: I'd tend to agree with that :-/
2017-01-09T20:50:15Z ecraven: hypergiant seems interesting
2017-01-09T20:50:25Z teurastaja: id also like srfi-27 to extend the notion of permutations, rotations etc
2017-01-09T20:50:36Z ecraven: teurastaja: write srfis ;)
2017-01-09T20:50:55Z ecraven: if you include portable implementations, things will get better. compiler writers might even improve on the portable implementations
2017-01-09T20:51:25Z jcowan: ecraven: We do have a socket SRFI already.
2017-01-09T20:51:39Z ecraven: ah, 106
2017-01-09T20:51:44Z ecraven: I was looking for "network", thank you
2017-01-09T20:52:21Z ecraven: yea, that looks kind of like all the ones I've seen in the schemes I use, just different names
2017-01-09T20:54:07Z jcowan: That's a good thing.
2017-01-09T20:55:04Z ecraven: it is a bit global-heavy (with all those *...* definitions) for my taste, but as long as it is standardised, that's good :D
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2017-01-09T20:55:25Z ecraven: jcowan: does oaklisp count even remotely as a scheme?
2017-01-09T20:55:37Z teurastaja: how about all the functions i keep writing which i feel could be helpful in a standard can they be included if i dont write the whole srfi?
2017-01-09T20:56:30Z jcowan: ecraven: I do think so, yes.  It attempts to be R3RS-compliant.
2017-01-09T20:56:30Z teurastaja: a lot of schemes provide them in different names but i usually just redefine them
2017-01-09T20:57:12Z teurastaja: a parser combinator library would be a good idea no?
2017-01-09T20:57:14Z jcowan: teurastaja: Send me a list with definitions and comments, and I'll look into it
2017-01-09T20:57:28Z jcowan: Yes it would, but I don't feel competent to write one.
2017-01-09T20:58:21Z teurastaja: or maybe regexps are enough though im always searching for the 'replace function when s/// works well
2017-01-09T21:00:47Z teurastaja: so generally i feel modern schemes lack good meta-abstractions to regroup redundant syntax
2017-01-09T21:01:09Z teurastaja: cant we just have something like fmap?
2017-01-09T21:02:55Z jcowan: I've been thinking about a monads and monoids SRFI analogous to comparators
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2017-01-09T21:03:19Z jcowan: Because Scheme is dynamically typed, it can't pass the right typeclass dictionary behind the scenes: it has to be overt.
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2017-01-09T21:04:27Z teurastaja: how about a message-passing interface?
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2017-01-09T21:07:42Z ecraven: hm.. r3rs did have display, but oaklisp seems to not have display?
2017-01-09T21:08:02Z paroneayea: What's the name for an "alist" that's like
2017-01-09T21:08:06Z paroneayea: instead of
2017-01-09T21:08:11Z paroneayea: '((key . val))
2017-01-09T21:08:12Z paroneayea: it's
2017-01-09T21:08:15Z paroneayea: '((key val))
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2017-01-09T21:08:29Z paroneayea: in which case, it's not an alist obviously
2017-01-09T21:08:33Z ecraven: I just know plists, which are '(key value key value)
2017-01-09T21:08:33Z paroneayea: but otherwise the same
2017-01-09T21:08:37Z paroneayea: yeah
2017-01-09T21:08:40Z paroneayea: this isn't a plist
2017-01-09T21:08:43Z gwatt: That's still an alist, it's just the value is a list.
2017-01-09T21:08:47Z ecraven: I'd still call that an alist, but you access values with cadr, not cdr
2017-01-09T21:08:57Z paroneayea: gwatt: ecraven got it, ok thanks
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2017-01-09T21:19:18Z jcowan: teurastaja: I thought about that, but it seems less Schemey than an object-passing interface.  The trouble with message-passing is that Scheme procedures are totally opaque: you can't define type predicates for them other than procedure? itself.
2017-01-09T21:21:09Z jcowan: Message-passing is more a proof of concept in Scheme than anything Schemers really use.
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2017-01-09T21:28:25Z ecraven: Was chez the last of the closed-source schemes?
2017-01-09T21:29:43Z lemonpie: is GOAL open-source yet?
2017-01-09T21:29:53Z wasamasa: #notascheme
2017-01-09T21:30:58Z lemonpie: syntactically, it's closer to scheme than anything else *shrug*
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2017-01-09T21:31:17Z ecraven: Hm.. sbcl vs. Chez benchmarks would be interesting
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2017-01-09T21:41:56Z jcowan: ecraven: AFAIK yes
2017-01-09T21:42:33Z jcowan: ecraven: Well, the Gabriels are already available in CL
2017-01-09T21:42:59Z ecraven: Ah, cool, i'll try to run a comparable set tomorrow then
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2017-01-09T21:58:42Z ecraven: Wow, looking at r2rs and r3rs explains quite a bit of mit scheme ideosynchrasies
2017-01-09T22:00:02Z paroneayea: ecraven: :)
2017-01-09T22:00:34Z jcowan: Indeed
2017-01-09T22:00:53Z ecraven: Also, what happens after r9rs? R10rs doesn't look nice
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2017-01-09T22:02:27Z jcowan: I tried to get us a new name instead of R7RS (I think the joke wore out at about R4RS), but no luck, the WG wouldn't go for it
2017-01-09T22:03:54Z ecraven: Well, two more left before we reach that decision
2017-01-09T22:04:27Z jcowan nods.
2017-01-09T22:04:50Z jcowan: If I can haul R7RS-large into the station I'll be happy.
2017-01-09T22:05:20Z ecraven: Yea, that'll be a great achievement!
2017-01-09T22:05:32Z ecraven: Enough for today, good night!
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2017-01-09T22:23:42Z paroneayea: r470rs (the razors scheme report)
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2017-01-09T22:34:42Z jcowan: paroneayea: It can still be processed by the a-list utilities, you just get '(value) back instead of value.
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2017-01-09T22:44:45Z paroneayea: jcowan: good point
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2017-01-09T23:23:28Z teurastaja: jcowan: did you say that if i wrote commented r7rs libraries for implementing redundant definitions which i commonly use you would look into it?
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2017-01-09T23:28:04Z jcowan: teurastaja: Indeed
2017-01-09T23:28:11Z jcowan: given such a library, a SRFI is easy
2017-01-09T23:28:27Z jcowan: By redundant I assume you mean portably implementable?
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2017-01-09T23:29:36Z teurastaja: yes, but i dont have fully diversified implemented libraries, just some minor feature suggestions to fit somewhere
2017-01-09T23:31:23Z teurastaja: but i could write libraries for stuff like sequences or combinations or trivial things like knuth's random shuffling algorithm over a vector
2017-01-09T23:32:42Z teurastaja: trivial things scheme lacks but which i see in Haskell or in C or some other Schemes
2017-01-09T23:33:30Z teurastaja: although the C example is a little far fetched
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2017-01-10T07:32:40Z ecraven: is barak pearlmutter ever here?
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2017-01-10T07:47:05Z z0d: no idea
2017-01-10T07:50:48Z ecraven: hm.. how do I correctly use fl (fresh line) from (chibi show)? just using (show #t fl ...) doesn't do anything, it seems to expect an argument, but the documentation says "(fl #<SC 4410246560 #<SC 4409231200 st>>)" which I do not understand
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2017-01-10T11:10:29Z leppie: ecraven: Fix exit code issue, new build @ https://ci.appveyor.com/project/leppie/ironscheme/branch/master/job/iyw2p8371umks9ng/artifacts
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2017-01-10T12:19:39Z ecraven: leppie: thanks!
2017-01-10T12:20:07Z leppie: ecraven: let me know if something does not work right
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2017-01-10T13:01:00Z foof`: ecraven: it's just fl.  (show #t fl) should in fact output nothing since you're already at the start of a fresh line.
2017-01-10T13:01:29Z foof`: the bug with the unwrapped synclos in the docs has been fixed.
2017-01-10T13:02:23Z ecraven: foof`: thanks. I'll try again :D
2017-01-10T13:02:35Z ecraven: foof`: also, thanks for chibi, it's a great system!
2017-01-10T13:03:39Z ecraven: hm.. does fl work across multiple show calls?
2017-01-10T13:04:39Z ecraven: (show #t fl " - foobar") multiple times in a row does not seem to do what I want
2017-01-10T13:04:47Z ecraven: so I misunderstood what it is supposed to do :-/
2017-01-10T13:05:48Z foof`: every call to show is independent by design.  it has no knowledge of the actual output previously accumulated on the port.
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2017-01-10T13:06:05Z ecraven: so there's no simple way to achieve this :-/
2017-01-10T13:06:18Z ecraven: hm.. maybe accumulating a list, then applying show to it
2017-01-10T13:06:35Z ecraven: which kind of defeats the purpose ;D
2017-01-10T13:08:00Z foof`: yes, you can use it with joined or some other looping construct
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2017-01-10T13:35:07Z foof`: ecraven: regarding (chibi term ansi), you need `is-a-tty?' from (chibi filesystem). i'd accept a patch, but this is used in many portable modules, so you'd need to cond-expand an alternate definition: (define (is-a-tty? port) #t).
2017-01-10T13:36:06Z ecraven: thanks!
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2017-01-10T15:06:59Z justinethier: foof`: You might be interested in this for Chibi - https://github.com/justinethier/cyclone/blob/master/gc.c#L534 - Basically do not rescan the start of the heap if GC already knows there is not a suitable slot for the requested object.
2017-01-10T15:09:22Z justinethier: This is a big win for Cyclone's fixed size heaps. Chibi is a bit different though, so it might not be as effective of a change unless there are a lot of allocations at once for objects of the same size
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2017-01-10T15:49:58Z foof`: justinethier: thanks!
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2017-01-10T15:51:04Z foof`: I did some experiments with multiple fixed sized heaps, but didn't have time to tune it to consistently be faster.  Your change should be an easy win.
2017-01-10T15:58:15Z justinethier: foof`: Great, hope it helps. The full commit is over here, obviously will be a bit different for Chibi: https://github.com/justinethier/cyclone/commit/391051ba7bdc6e9f33dbcb13dda513b6996bf129
2017-01-10T15:58:32Z justinethier: foof`: would it be easier for you if I just put all this in a github issue?
2017-01-10T16:00:42Z justinethier: foof`: and no problem. thanks for Chibi :)
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2017-01-10T18:15:33Z djohn: can someone recommend some scheme environments for windows?
2017-01-10T18:16:09Z djohn: and a good guide "starting scheme" aimed at programmers coming from non-functional paradigms
2017-01-10T18:16:12Z pjb: Racket. MIT Scheme.
2017-01-10T18:16:50Z pjb: A lot of material referenced at http://schemers.org
2017-01-10T18:17:14Z justinethier: Racket is a good choice, and also IronScheme is written in/for .NET
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2017-01-10T18:22:43Z djohn: thanks for the recommendations
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2017-01-10T18:23:54Z wasamasa: hm, perhaps the Learn Scheme in Fixnum Days could be great after an update
2017-01-10T18:24:22Z wasamasa: IIRC it has a clause preventing you from adapting the material
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2017-01-10T18:26:37Z justinethier: Putting together an updated brain-dump of Cyclone internals, trying to gauge how useful or interesting this sort of thing is: https://github.com/justinethier/cyclone/blob/master/docs/Writing-the-Cyclone-Scheme-Compiler-Revised-2017.md
2017-01-10T18:27:34Z wasamasa: or maybe not, last time I discussed this issue was with someone strongly disliking anything GPL
2017-01-10T18:28:45Z mario-goulart: Nice, justinethier.  Thanks for sharing it.
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2017-01-10T18:46:29Z justinethier: mario-goulart: no problem, hope it can be useful
2017-01-10T18:48:11Z mario-goulart: It certainly is.  Thanks.
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2017-01-10T18:51:04Z rjungemann: This is really cool justinethier!
2017-01-10T18:53:31Z ecraven: justinethier: just because you mention it, an r7rs nanopass would be so great :D
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2017-01-10T18:53:49Z ecraven: I've started re-implementing it in mit scheme, but it is quite a bit of macrology
2017-01-10T18:55:48Z justinethier: ecraven: that's a great idea!
2017-01-10T18:56:34Z justinethier: I expect there would be a lot of syntax-case? Not sure there is a portable way to convert that to r7rs
2017-01-10T18:56:43Z justinethier: might need to use ER macros?
2017-01-10T18:57:17Z justinethier: though that's not officially in r7rs either
2017-01-10T18:58:09Z justinethier: rjungemann: thanks :)
2017-01-10T19:07:24Z ecraven: I don't fully understand the code, but I've re-implemented about half of it, I think. I'll return to it as soon as I have a bit more time
2017-01-10T19:13:20Z ecraven: justinethier: cyclone really is amazingly fast
2017-01-10T19:14:05Z teurastaja: ca sonne quebecois en esti icitte
2017-01-10T19:16:05Z justinethier: ecraven: Thanks. It still has a ways to go compared to a lot of the established compilers though
2017-01-10T19:17:38Z ecraven: yes, but those have had years of work
2017-01-10T19:17:46Z justinethier: true
2017-01-10T19:18:37Z justinethier: considering the age it has come a long way
2017-01-10T19:19:31Z justinethier: I have been going through your benchmarks and using that to try and identify areas for improvement
2017-01-10T19:20:14Z ecraven: if you find any problems with the benchmarks, please tell me
2017-01-10T19:20:27Z justinethier: ok
2017-01-10T19:20:28Z ecraven: also, they aren't mine, I just put a small bit of wrapping around them ;)
2017-01-10T19:20:53Z justinethier: I know where you got them :)
2017-01-10T19:20:53Z ecraven: with rjungemann's work on run-on-schemes, I hope to provide a better ui for them, showing actual output and errors
2017-01-10T19:21:11Z rjungemann: I'm hoping to dig in a little more this evening
2017-01-10T19:21:12Z justinethier: but you did a *lot* of work pulling in other schemes
2017-01-10T19:21:12Z jcowan_: I hope we will eventually figure out a good balanced macro system for R7RS-large that won't be too controversial.
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2017-01-10T19:21:24Z jcowan_: Syntax-parameters will help, I'm going to try to push them.
2017-01-10T19:21:25Z ecraven: jcowan_: any contenders?
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2017-01-10T19:21:36Z jcowan shrugs
2017-01-10T19:21:43Z justinethier: jcowan_: is ER macros still on the table?
2017-01-10T19:21:48Z jcowan: Yes indeed.
2017-01-10T19:21:50Z justinethier: I know that's a low-level system
2017-01-10T19:22:00Z ecraven: justinethier: well, I still need to put more in, I'm sure more tests could run on more schemes, with just a bit more shims
2017-01-10T19:22:05Z ecraven: IR! s
2017-01-10T19:22:07Z ecraven: SC!
2017-01-10T19:22:09Z jcowan: The procedural question is whether to vote on them all separately or have a competition to choose just one
2017-01-10T19:22:22Z justinethier: ecraven: do you have other schemes in mind?
2017-01-10T19:22:26Z jcowan: the latter will be polarizing, but the former may wind up with "all of them"
2017-01-10T19:22:31Z ecraven: jcowan: I'd say separately
2017-01-10T19:22:43Z justinethier: jcowan: where is all of the r7rs discussion happening? is there a mailing list for it?
2017-01-10T19:22:48Z justinethier: er, r7rs-large
2017-01-10T19:22:52Z ecraven: justinethier: I'll need to check jcowan's list again
2017-01-10T19:22:56Z jcowan: r7rs-large@groups.google.com
2017-01-10T19:23:27Z jcowan: and I post things on trac.sacrideo.us/wg/wiki/
2017-01-10T19:23:35Z rjungemann: A quick infodump of my exploration of the plausibility of non-hygienic macro shim in R7RS... granted I'm not super knowledgable and it may not be possible... https://gist.github.com/rjungemann/cad5db32202277be46e49b4e363e9a8f
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2017-01-10T19:23:44Z jcowan: But most discussion right now is happening in SRFI lists
2017-01-10T19:24:08Z jcowan: If we had interoperability between SC/ER and syntax-case, that would be a huge win
2017-01-10T19:24:25Z gwatt: what is SC/ER?
2017-01-10T19:24:26Z jcowan: I myself have no dog in this fight except syntax-parameters
2017-01-10T19:24:44Z jcowan: syntactic closures and explicit renaming (the former pretty much always subsumes the latter)
2017-01-10T19:25:28Z ecraven: I think IR are interesting, but I've never used them
2017-01-10T19:26:01Z jcowan: The trouble there is that the simple implementation of IR (implicit renaming) is quadratic in the size of the macro
2017-01-10T19:26:17Z justinethier: jcowan: it would be interesting if there was an implementation of syntax-case using ER, like there is for synax-rules
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2017-01-10T19:27:42Z justinethier: maybe that could help unify r6rs?
2017-01-10T19:29:08Z ecraven: jcowan: ah, I didn't know that
2017-01-10T19:30:17Z justinethier: there is a discussion on a chibi ticket: https://github.com/ashinn/chibi-scheme/issues/114
2017-01-10T19:30:23Z rjungemann: Yep was just about to post that
2017-01-10T19:30:28Z justinethier: :)
2017-01-10T19:31:47Z rjungemann: This discussion seems to show an implementation of er-macro-transformer on top of syntax-case instead of the other way around. https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/comp.lang.scheme/W3IMU-2frls I imagine that implementing syntax-case on top of er-macro-transformer must be possible
2017-01-10T19:32:59Z jcowan: ecraven: You have to process the entire macro call, then you have to process each subform of it in the same way.
2017-01-10T19:33:40Z jcowan: justinethier: AFAIK no one has ever shown that subsuming syntax-case under the SC/ER family is either possible or not possible.
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2017-01-10T19:35:21Z jcowan: Not even a non-constructive proof, never mind an implementation.
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2017-01-10T19:36:03Z ecraven: does chez have macro-expand? to look at expanded code?
2017-01-10T19:36:11Z justinethier: well, I admit I'm not familiar with everything that syntax-case can do, and there seems to be a lot
2017-01-10T19:36:20Z gwatt: ecraven: just it's just called `expand`
2017-01-10T19:37:23Z ecraven: gwatt: thanks
2017-01-10T19:37:24Z ecraven: 1
2017-01-10T19:37:33Z justinethier: jcowan: I suppose the question is, are there additional hooks besides rename and compare that would be needed
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2017-01-10T19:38:27Z ecraven: hehe, that expands way too much..
2017-01-10T19:38:41Z gwatt: ecraven: you might also want to run it under (parameterize ([print-gensym #f]) ...) chez's gensyms are verbose
2017-01-10T19:38:50Z ecraven: gwatt: cool, thank you
2017-01-10T19:38:56Z gwatt: Or just do (print-gensym #f)
2017-01-10T19:38:57Z ecraven: maybe trace-define-syntax will help too
2017-01-10T19:39:26Z weinholt: ecraven, there's also expand/optimize, which calls the optimizer before printing
2017-01-10T19:39:32Z gwatt: that'll certainly help if your macro fails to expand at all. Happens to me all the time
2017-01-10T19:40:21Z ecraven: I just want each step, probably trace-define-syntax is what I'm looking for
2017-01-10T19:40:52Z jcowan: justinethier: See http://trac.sacrideo.us/wg/wiki/MinimalSyntaxCaseCowan (really by Eli Barzilay)
2017-01-10T19:42:36Z ecraven: is there a way to tell chez to print everything in trace-define-syntax, not elide things with ...?
2017-01-10T19:43:48Z justinethier: jcowan: so the most complex API has complexity very similar to ER or SC...
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2017-01-10T19:46:51Z gwatt: ecraven: there are some more thread parameters that control printing of traces: http://cisco.github.io/ChezScheme/csug9.4/debug.html#./debug:s11
2017-01-10T19:47:02Z gwatt: dunno though.
2017-01-10T19:48:22Z ecraven: thanks, I *think* these ... are actually part of the macro expansion, so they are legitimate
2017-01-10T19:48:34Z gwatt: Hmm, there's also http://cisco.github.io/ChezScheme/csug9.4/io.html#./io:s106 , but print-level and print-length default to #f, which means unlimited
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2017-01-10T20:05:56Z teurastaja: what are the specifics of lambda calculus to Scheme? only the eager evaluation part?
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2017-01-10T20:06:11Z teurastaja: is the rest the same for all languages?
2017-01-10T20:06:21Z oleo: no
2017-01-10T20:06:23Z oleo: uhuh
2017-01-10T20:07:08Z teurastaja: say you want to implement a curried version of Scheme's lambda calculus in C
2017-01-10T20:08:14Z oleo: afaik there's already a language called mixin or so
2017-01-10T20:08:18Z teurastaja: what good examples on the net are there about that specific problem?
2017-01-10T20:08:29Z oleo: which does partial evaluation
2017-01-10T20:09:28Z teurastaja: i want to implement Scheme's lambda calculus in C but with curried functions. what are the steps? alpha/beta/eta conversion? in that order?
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2017-01-10T20:28:16Z justinethier: ecraven: One question I have about the r7rs-benchmarks
2017-01-10T20:29:22Z justinethier: larceny has a geometric mean that attempts to provide an overall ranking: http://www.larcenists.org/benchmarksAboutR7.html#geometricMean
2017-01-10T20:29:38Z justinethier: is that something that you have thought about adding?
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2017-01-10T20:31:29Z ecraven: yes, but I haven't found the time to do that
2017-01-10T20:31:51Z oleo: http://www.allisons.org/ll/FP/Lambda/Interpreter/                 http://www.ioccc.org/1998/fanf.hint              https://weblogs.asp.net/dixin/lambda-calculus-via-c-sharp-1-fundamentals-closure-currying-and-partial-application
2017-01-10T20:31:51Z rudybot: http://teensy.info/dhs2NNlmnN
2017-01-10T20:31:57Z ecraven: I've been a bit wary of adding too many "x is better than y" accumulated stats, as it is really hard to say :-/
2017-01-10T20:32:27Z oleo: have a look at them, some are in C tho only interpreters (both eager and lazy versions)....
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2017-01-10T20:33:42Z justinethier: ecraven: no worries, just curious
2017-01-10T20:35:37Z oleo: or look into boost lambda library for C++ (wiring that into C will be hard tho...you have todo many translations....from structures to many stuff btw doing OOP in C will be very different....and hard)
2017-01-10T20:36:19Z oleo: and one seems to have to understand many optimization techniques as well .....
2017-01-10T20:37:31Z ecraven: justinethier: the entire presentation side isn't good yet, it needs to be way more interactive... but my parenscheme isn't working correctly yet, and I don't want to write javascript by hand
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2017-01-10T20:41:51Z justinethier: ecraven: is there something you had in mind?
2017-01-10T20:43:27Z ecraven: for what?
2017-01-10T20:43:35Z ecraven: ah, maybe some d3 or so
2017-01-10T20:43:49Z ecraven: interactive graphs, where you can hide schemes you aren't interested in, and show things in different ways
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2017-01-10T20:46:04Z jcowan: Racket has a lot more than R6RS does, but the syntax-parameters paper says it covers a lot of the demand for non-hygienic identifiers
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2017-01-10T20:52:36Z justinethier: these graphs are really nice: http://www.highcharts.com/ - no idea how well they would perform with 56 on the same page though
2017-01-10T20:53:51Z davexunit: proprietary javascript
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2017-01-10T20:54:35Z ecraven: just working on my parenscheme again ;)
2017-01-10T20:54:42Z ecraven: (log console (+ 1 2 3)) :p
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2017-01-10T20:56:14Z justinethier: davexunit: open source and free for non-commercial, but you have a point
2017-01-10T20:56:22Z davexunit: it's not open source.
2017-01-10T20:56:36Z davexunit: "free for non-commercial" is in direct conflict with the open source definition.
2017-01-10T20:56:57Z davexunit: so be careful!
2017-01-10T20:58:16Z davexunit: it would be a shame if ecraven used highcharts on the scheme benchmark site because, among others, the guile community views those graphs and many in the community block such javascript.
2017-01-10T20:58:23Z justinethier: well there's the whole free vs open debate...
2017-01-10T20:58:40Z ecraven: well, there are probably enough uncontested alternatives
2017-01-10T20:58:46Z justinethier: good point, maybe using them would be a bad idea
2017-01-10T20:59:28Z ecraven: why can't we have hash table literals :-/
2017-01-10T20:59:33Z justinethier: personally I like how fast the benchmarks page loads right now, and all the data is easily viewable
2017-01-10T20:59:58Z davexunit: justinethier: highcharts is neither open source nor free software.
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2017-01-10T21:31:42Z justinethier: husk had hash table literals for awhile, but it ended up causing problems in that implementation: https://github.com/justinethier/husk-scheme/blob/master/ChangeLog.markdown#v356
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2017-01-10T21:35:09Z Riastradh: How about critbit tree literals?
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2017-01-10T21:43:47Z gwatt: justinethier: what problems did hashtable literals cause?
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2017-01-10T21:55:33Z ecraven: gwatt: I think I was the only one talking about hashtable literals (and lamenting the lack of standardised ones in scheme)
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2017-01-10T23:00:52Z justinethier: gwatt: its in the change log. there was an issue with the storage model there, probably a problem handling mutations
2017-01-10T23:01:05Z justinethier: implementation-specific
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2017-01-10T23:02:10Z justinethier: I don't think there is a way to extend the scheme reader to support that type of new syntax? EG: #hash()
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2017-01-11T00:03:03Z teurastaja: i have this sudoku frame i did in utf-8 encoding using box framing characters and im searching for a simple way to replace the spaces in the string with matching numbers from a list
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2017-01-11T00:03:21Z teurastaja: cant think of something simple
2017-01-11T00:04:41Z teurastaja: id like it not to be a library by itself
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2017-01-11T00:19:32Z teurastaja: hello?
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2017-01-11T00:24:55Z teurastaja: i have this sudoku frame i did in utf-8 encoding using box framing characters and im searching for a simple way to replace the spaces in the string with matching numbers from a list
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2017-01-11T00:30:42Z teurastaja: ping....
2017-01-11T00:32:32Z teurastaja: lalalalalalalalalalalalalalalalala.................!!!!!!!!!!!!?????????
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2017-01-11T00:34:28Z danielcamiel: would it be easier to produce the string from an internal representation that is easier to work with?
2017-01-11T00:34:49Z teurastaja: like?
2017-01-11T00:35:11Z danielcamiel: (print-sudoku sudoku) ===> <utf-8 encoded string>
2017-01-11T00:36:03Z danielcamiel: or (sudoku->string sudoku) ===> <utf-8 encoded string>
2017-01-11T00:36:20Z teurastaja: ╔═╤═╤═╦═╤═╤═╦═╤═╤═╗
2017-01-11T00:36:20Z teurastaja: ║ │ │ ║ │ │ ║ │ │ ║
2017-01-11T00:36:20Z teurastaja: ╟─┼─┼─╫─┼─┼─╫─┼─┼─╢
2017-01-11T00:36:20Z teurastaja: ║ │ │ ║ │ │ ║ │ │ ║
2017-01-11T00:36:20Z teurastaja: ╟─┼─┼─╫─┼─┼─╫─┼─┼─╢
2017-01-11T00:36:20Z teurastaja: ║ │ │ ║ │ │ ║ │ │ ║
2017-01-11T00:36:22Z teurastaja: ╠═╪═╪═╬═╪═╪═╬═╪═╪═╣
2017-01-11T00:36:24Z teurastaja: ║ │ │ ║ │ │ ║ │ │ ║
2017-01-11T00:36:26Z teurastaja: ╟─┼─┼─╫─┼─┼─╫─┼─┼─╢
2017-01-11T00:36:28Z teurastaja: ║ │ │ ║ │ │ ║ │ │ ║
2017-01-11T00:36:30Z teurastaja: ╟─┼─┼─╫─┼─┼─╫─┼─┼─╢
2017-01-11T00:36:32Z teurastaja: ║ │ │ ║ │ │ ║ │ │ ║
2017-01-11T00:36:34Z teurastaja: ╠═╪═╪═╬═╪═╪═╬═╪═╪═╣
2017-01-11T00:36:36Z teurastaja: ║ │ │ ║ │ │ ║ │ │ ║
2017-01-11T00:36:38Z teurastaja: ╟─┼─┼─╫─┼─┼─╫─┼─┼─╢
2017-01-11T00:36:40Z teurastaja: ║ │ │ ║ │ │ ║ │ │ ║
2017-01-11T00:36:42Z teurastaja: ╟─┼─┼─╫─┼─┼─╫─┼─┼─╢
2017-01-11T00:36:44Z teurastaja: ║ │ │ ║ │ │ ║ │ │ ║
2017-01-11T00:36:48Z teurastaja: ╚═╧═╧═╩═╧═╧═╩═╧═╧═╝
2017-01-11T00:36:50Z teurastaja: this is it
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2017-01-11T00:37:40Z teurastaja: so i would like to fill it from a list of digits
2017-01-11T00:37:53Z teurastaja: where the #\space are
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2017-01-11T00:40:22Z danielcamiel: what if you wrote a procedure that produced that, instead of modifying that?
2017-01-11T00:40:41Z teurastaja: you try
2017-01-11T00:41:01Z danielcamiel: nah
2017-01-11T00:41:03Z teurastaja: itll be a library sooner than you think
2017-01-11T00:41:38Z danielcamiel: how many lines are there in the string?
2017-01-11T00:41:40Z teurastaja: youd have too lookup all the utf-8 pipe characters
2017-01-11T00:41:50Z teurastaja: and translate them one by one
2017-01-11T00:42:10Z teurastaja: did you copy-paste?
2017-01-11T00:42:14Z danielcamiel: u have them here though :-p
2017-01-11T00:42:54Z teurastaja: every corner is a different character thats not helping
2017-01-11T00:43:29Z danielcamiel: ur focused on irrelevant details lol
2017-01-11T00:43:58Z teurastaja: theres no easy cycle to reproduce in such a cycle
2017-01-11T00:44:05Z teurastaja: *such a function
2017-01-11T00:44:18Z danielcamiel: you want to produce 19 lines
2017-01-11T00:44:40Z danielcamiel: 9 of those lines have numbers on them
2017-01-11T00:45:05Z danielcamiel: and those are: 1, 3, 5, 7, 9, 11, 13, 15, 17
2017-01-11T00:45:09Z danielcamiel: correct?
2017-01-11T00:45:53Z teurastaja: sure although ideally that detail would be irrelevant to the task
2017-01-11T00:46:36Z danielcamiel: & if you talk about columns it's the same thing
2017-01-11T00:47:21Z danielcamiel: if both the column and line numbers are odd, append the next digit to the string
2017-01-11T00:48:38Z danielcamiel: if the column's even and the line number's 0, 6, 12, or 18, put a ║
2017-01-11T00:48:54Z danielcamiel: if the column's 0, 6, 12, or 18, and the line number's odd*
2017-01-11T00:49:14Z danielcamiel: otherwise if the column's even and the line number's odd, put a |
2017-01-11T00:50:01Z teurastaja: how about the 8 or so different corner characters?
2017-01-11T00:51:14Z danielcamiel: (cond ((and (= col 0) (= row 0)) "╔") ...)
2017-01-11T00:52:54Z danielcamiel: you'll probably find a lot of ways to simplify it
2017-01-11T00:53:22Z danielcamiel: if you use string-append you could do a whole line at a time, if it's an even line
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2017-01-11T00:55:07Z danielcamiel: or use display, to write it straight to the output :)
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2017-01-11T01:04:31Z danielcamiel: since UTF-8 guarantees no character will be equivalent to ' ', another idea is to go through the string character-by-character, e.g. with string->list, then if the character's equal to a space, print the next number in the number list, otherwise print the character of the string, which would be closer to your initial approach
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2017-01-11T13:03:07Z ecraven: does anyone have a simple example of how to use continuations to stop a computation after n seconds, but allow to resume it (for another n seconds ad infinitum)/
2017-01-11T13:05:24Z C-Keen: that's not so simple as it sounds
2017-01-11T13:05:56Z ecraven: C-Keen: hehe, I was thinking it was my fault, for not coming up with a good way how to do this
2017-01-11T13:06:03Z ecraven: I'd need a "forward" continuation :D
2017-01-11T13:06:25Z ecraven: maybe something with delaying the rest of the computation each step, and forcing only if time has not run out yet
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2017-01-11T13:14:54Z renopt: if you did something like cooperative multithreading based on continuations you could avoid scheduling the "thread" for a certain amount of time
2017-01-11T13:16:26Z C-Keen: ecraven: you would need to accumulate a continuation for every step of the computatino check whether the time limit has been reached and hand that back to whoever it is to resume
2017-01-11T13:16:52Z C-Keen: ecraven: maybe a stream is more what you need?
2017-01-11T13:17:06Z C-Keen: if your algorithm can be expressed like that
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2017-01-11T13:17:34Z ecraven: what about returning a procedure on timeout, if you call that, it continues? that should be doable with delay/force, I think/
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2017-01-11T13:39:52Z ski: ecraven : hmm .. in SML/NJ, there's a way to interrupt a computation, bundling it up in a continuation, possibly using a different one when resuming, iirc
2017-01-11T13:42:32Z C-Keen: ecraven: yeah but continuing with *what*
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2017-01-11T13:43:10Z C-Keen: the delay/force pattern for each step for your computation will make it a stream of results
2017-01-11T13:49:26Z ski . o O ( <http://www.smlnj.org/doc/SMLofNJ/pages/interval-timer.html>,<http://www.smlnj.org/doc/SMLofNJ/pages/signals.html#SIG:SIGNALS.setHandler:VAL>,<http://www.smlnj.org/doc/SMLofNJ/pages/cont.html>; also something similar in MLton, it seems )
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2017-01-11T14:22:22Z ecraven: thanks
2017-01-11T14:22:30Z ecraven: this seems like something that would be useful in a lot of situations
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2017-01-11T15:46:36Z naugles: can anyone tell me what I'm doing wrong: http://pastebin.com/7VCqNALt ?
2017-01-11T15:46:55Z naugles: (involving syntactic closures)
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2017-01-11T16:20:16Z naugles: is anyone actually in this channel?
2017-01-11T16:20:38Z naugles: you all just wanna seem cool by being in the scheme channel, huh?
2017-01-11T16:20:52Z naugles: classic IRC...
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2017-01-11T16:23:00Z ecraven: naugles: I haven't used macro-generating macros like this before
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2017-01-11T16:33:20Z larsen: naugles: hello. I am. but admittedly I only lurk
2017-01-11T16:35:44Z wasamasa: ah, classic baiting for replies on IRC
2017-01-11T16:35:58Z gwatt: heh
2017-01-11T16:36:14Z wasamasa: have you considered the doesn't happen to be anyone online who read the question and is able to answer it?
2017-01-11T16:36:25Z wasamasa: *there
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2017-01-11T16:38:28Z wasamasa: I haven't even heard about syntactic closures before...
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2017-01-11T16:39:25Z ovenpasta: jcowan: hi. in http://srfi.schemers.org/srfi-113/srfi-113.html ... (let* ((set1 (set 'a 'b 'c)) ... the set call is incorrect since it lacks the comparator
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2017-01-11T16:49:53Z adu: wasamasa: what question?
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2017-01-11T16:51:10Z gwatt: adu: > is anyone actually in this channel? > you all just wanna seem cool by being in the scheme channel, huh? > classic IRC...
2017-01-11T16:51:31Z adu: lol
2017-01-11T16:51:41Z wasamasa: that's not the question, just some angry rant after it
2017-01-11T16:52:43Z wasamasa: I can't copy paste it either because I switched devices and lost the scrollback
2017-01-11T16:53:10Z justinethier:  <naugles> can anyone tell me what I'm doing wrong: http://pastebin.com/7VCqNALt ?
2017-01-11T16:55:25Z adu: naugles: is that mit-scheme?
2017-01-11T16:55:55Z ecraven: adu: looks like it
2017-01-11T16:56:26Z naugles: mit-scheme
2017-01-11T16:57:17Z naugles: and to be clear: that was a playful rant, not angry =P
2017-01-11T16:58:59Z wasamasa: yeah, that is something one can immediately tell from text
2017-01-11T16:59:02Z wasamasa: not
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2017-01-11T17:09:40Z jcowan: ovenpasta: thanks
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2017-01-11T21:31:40Z paroneayea: hi
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2017-01-12T09:31:50Z anon9002: How do you pronounce "SRFI"?
2017-01-12T09:37:28Z C-Keen: surf-y
2017-01-12T09:37:45Z C-Keen: hence the surf board as a logo
2017-01-12T09:42:38Z wasamasa: it all makes sense now
2017-01-12T09:43:12Z C-Keen: does it?
2017-01-12T09:43:51Z wasamasa: I kept wondering what that logo is supposed to resemble
2017-01-12T09:48:17Z C-Keen: ah lol
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2017-01-12T15:46:14Z jcowan: I never realized the SRFI logo was a surfboard before, I thought it was just a sort of plaque.
2017-01-12T15:46:53Z C-Keen: maybe I am imagining things?
2017-01-12T15:48:53Z oleo: lol
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2017-01-12T15:53:41Z Riastradh: Heh.  I always thought it was a surfboard because the pronunciation is `surfie'.
2017-01-12T15:54:46Z davexunit: it's absolutely a surf board.
2017-01-12T15:57:18Z Riastradh: Someone^TM should make srfi.schemers.org work with https.
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2017-01-12T16:38:27Z ecraven: who has access?
2017-01-12T16:38:48Z ecraven: I can request a lets-encrypt certificate easily enough, but not having access to the server, you can't verify or install it
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2017-01-12T17:22:26Z jcowan: Oh, I believe it was intended as a surfboard, I just never saw it as such until today.
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2017-01-12T19:49:23Z yottabyte: what are the differences between MIT-Scheme and R5RS and R6RS, etc? Can I get away with using Guile or Chicken or Chibi Scheme for working through SICP?
2017-01-12T19:51:30Z ecraven: yottabyte: I think no scheme (except for maybe racket in sicp-mode) is entirely the same as SICP, but almost any scheme will work with minor adjustments
2017-01-12T19:51:41Z jcowan: yottabyte: RnRS for values of n from 0 to 7 are standards; the others are implementations.
2017-01-12T19:51:56Z ecraven: mit-scheme is mostly r5rs, definitely not r6rs
2017-01-12T19:52:03Z jcowan: Racket specifically has a SICP package that makes it exactly the SICP dialect, I think
2017-01-12T19:52:04Z ecraven: sicp is r4rs, maybe?
2017-01-12T19:53:01Z jcowan: earlier than that
2017-01-12T19:53:17Z jcowan: you can also run sicp on MIT Scheme, but Racket is probably easier
2017-01-12T19:53:49Z yottabyte: yeah, I've been using racket, but it's so minimal
2017-01-12T19:53:49Z jcowan: https://docs.racket-lang.org/sicp-manual/index.html
2017-01-12T19:53:54Z davexunit: I've done everything in SICP with Guile
2017-01-12T19:54:00Z yottabyte: davexunit: nice
2017-01-12T19:54:12Z jcowan: Things like t and nil being defined are not present in R4RS
2017-01-12T19:54:12Z davexunit: I don't recall encountering any major issue
2017-01-12T19:54:20Z jcowan: s/t/true
2017-01-12T19:54:57Z davexunit: I imagine it's the same way with any other Scheme.  a couple of tiny incompatibilities but otherwise everything works.
2017-01-12T19:55:52Z jcowan nods.
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2017-01-12T19:56:07Z jcowan: Racket's UI handholds novices, though
2017-01-12T19:56:12Z davexunit: yeah
2017-01-12T19:56:14Z davexunit: sounds nice
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2017-01-12T20:13:46Z ecraven: it's easy to fix the tiny incompatibilities *after* you know scheme, I'm not sure how obvious (define true #t)
2017-01-12T20:13:48Z ecraven: is to a novice
2017-01-12T20:16:17Z jcowan nods
2017-01-12T20:16:47Z ecraven: things like call/cc <-> call-with-current-continuation are not so obvious, I imagine, if you have no idea what they mean
2017-01-12T20:16:55Z ecraven: (not sure whether that's relevant for sicp)
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2017-01-12T20:18:06Z davexunit: ecraven: I didn't really know scheme when I started sicp
2017-01-12T20:18:49Z davexunit: so there's some anecdotal evidence that it might not be the biggest deal.
2017-01-12T20:19:05Z ecraven: yea, I guess if you just ask here or google a bit, you shouldn't hit anything major
2017-01-12T20:19:14Z ecraven: unless you use oaklisp or so :p
2017-01-12T20:19:25Z ecraven: set!? what's that, I don't have that :P
2017-01-12T20:19:35Z ecraven: owllisp, actually
2017-01-12T20:19:57Z davexunit: probably more difficult to find a scheme to use to begin with.
2017-01-12T20:20:12Z ecraven: no, oaklisp after all.. too many similar names!
2017-01-12T20:20:34Z ecraven: davexunit: well, in the end, choose any, I have my preferences, but I don't think any of the larger schemes is a bad choice
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2017-01-13T06:14:21Z eMBee: siddhant: ok, but it should be about parallelizing something? how much work should it be?
2017-01-13T06:14:29Z eMBee: ooops
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2017-01-13T09:39:13Z ecraven: :)
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2017-01-13T18:38:57Z taylan: ecraven: AFAIK SICP was written with the assumption that the user runs MIT Scheme, at that time, so it's written for whatever version of MIT Scheme that was current at that time :)
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2017-01-13T18:41:35Z ecraven: hm.. someone should port sicp to r7rs :D
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2017-01-13T18:43:40Z gnomon: ecraven, that is a really, really good idea.
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2017-01-13T18:53:21Z ecraven: what's the license on the html version?
2017-01-13T18:53:34Z ecraven: can we put it into a git repo and accept PRs?
2017-01-13T18:58:06Z gwatt: > Structure and Interpretation of Computer Programs by Harold Abelson and Gerald Jay Sussman with Julie Sussman is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-ShareAlike 4.0 International License by the MIT Press.
2017-01-13T18:58:54Z ecraven: gwatt: so that means this would in theory be ok?
2017-01-13T18:59:34Z gwatt: I think so
2017-01-13T18:59:54Z gwatt: https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/4.0/
2017-01-13T19:00:05Z gwatt: That's the license linked on the sicp site
2017-01-13T19:00:19Z ecraven: is there anything like github, but foss?
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2017-01-13T19:02:47Z gwatt: like gitlab?
2017-01-13T19:02:54Z ecraven: hehe, yea, that comes to mind
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2017-01-13T19:36:16Z paroneayea: ecraven: there's a nice html version here:
2017-01-13T19:36:49Z paroneayea: https://sarabander.github.io/sicp/
2017-01-13T19:36:55Z paroneayea: https://github.com/sarabander/sicp
2017-01-13T19:39:28Z ecraven: paroneayea: ah, that's nice!
2017-01-13T19:41:09Z ecraven: hm. I wonder how hard it would be to make the code examples executable, to verify that they actually work
2017-01-13T19:41:13Z ecraven: looks like a lot of work
2017-01-13T19:41:33Z ecraven: but running everything through chibi would ensure that everything works as intended (in r7rs
2017-01-13T19:54:03Z wasamasa: meh, I don't see the point
2017-01-13T19:54:26Z ecraven: well, it would obviate the question which scheme is best for sicp.. any r7rs scheme would do fine
2017-01-13T19:54:36Z paroneayea: I haven't found it particularly hard to adapt sicp to the guile code I'm doing
2017-01-13T19:54:40Z paroneayea: even where there are inconsistencies
2017-01-13T19:54:43Z paroneayea: they are easy to pick out
2017-01-13T19:54:52Z wasamasa: I'm going through SICP at a snail's pace in a working group and in chapter 1, all I needed to do was fixing up the undefined true/false and find an implementation-specific way to benchmark in microseconds
2017-01-13T19:54:54Z paroneayea: adapting wouldn't be bad of course
2017-01-13T19:55:17Z ecraven: wasamasa: both could really easily be fixed in sicp-r7rs ;)
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2017-01-13T19:56:18Z wasamasa: ecraven: I don't see why you'd do what amounts to five minutes of research while confusing everyone not riding the r7rs train
2017-01-13T19:56:33Z ecraven: also a good point
2017-01-13T19:58:45Z wasamasa: maybe once r7rs-small is the default for everything
2017-01-13T19:59:11Z wasamasa: if you want to practice using it for real stuff, why don't you implement MAL in it :P
2017-01-13T19:59:52Z ecraven: hm.. might it help r7rs if there were sicp-r7rs?
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2017-01-13T20:03:56Z wasamasa: ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
2017-01-13T20:06:15Z ecraven: I should start submitting PRs to various schemes with r7rs-small compatibility patches
2017-01-13T20:06:30Z ecraven: the simple things, renaming of existing functions
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2017-01-13T20:27:46Z ecraven: does anyone else use o for function composition? like (o car cdr car)?
2017-01-13T20:28:42Z gwatt: ecraven: well for that I would just use cadar ;-)
2017-01-13T20:29:39Z Riastradh: Doesn't work so well with, e.g., (log (sqrt (det ...)).  I mean, you could say lsqrdet or something, but somehow that seems unsatisfying...
2017-01-13T20:31:22Z pjb: ecraven: when I want it short, yes, I use o.  Otherwise compose.
2017-01-13T20:32:38Z ecraven: Riastradh: why not ((o log sqrt det) ...)?
2017-01-13T20:36:18Z gwatt: I think compose works better if there are anonymous functions in the mix. If it's just a series of standard functions I like nested calls more
2017-01-13T20:36:41Z ecraven: gwatt: I use it to pass off a function, not to directly apply it
2017-01-13T20:37:00Z ecraven: (make-csv `(("name" ,(o user-name enrolment-user))) (all-enrolments))
2017-01-13T20:37:03Z gwatt: that's fair
2017-01-13T20:37:11Z Riastradh: gwatt: I was joking about gwatt's answer.
2017-01-13T20:37:22Z ecraven: it's easier on the eyes than (lambda (x) (user-name (enrolment-user x))) for me
2017-01-13T20:37:39Z ecraven: Riastradh: ah, sorry, totally misread that
2017-01-13T20:38:00Z gwatt: Riastradh: gotcha. the pre-composed functions do only go so far
2017-01-13T20:38:58Z wasamasa: Riastradh: I guess that's how arydshln happened
2017-01-13T20:39:47Z ecraven: incidentally, is that make-csv like anything you people use? is there a much better way I'm totally missing?
2017-01-13T20:43:01Z Riastradh: (I do know some people who like that you can quickly pronounce cdaddr over the telephone, because they do so.)
2017-01-13T20:43:23Z ecraven: how do you pronounce the dd so that it isn't mistaken for a single d?
2017-01-13T20:43:39Z gwatt: cuh-da-di-der
2017-01-13T20:44:20Z ecraven: (o cdr third) ;p
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2017-01-13T20:45:34Z Riastradh: ecraven: How do you pronounce `I do it' differently from `I'd do it'?
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2017-01-13T20:50:01Z gwatt: ecraven: why not use the unicode circle: ○ I'm sure that won't be confusing
2017-01-13T20:50:03Z ecraven: not sure it'd be very distinguishable over the phone :)
2017-01-13T20:50:11Z ecraven: gwatt: that won't work well on mit-scheme :-/
2017-01-13T20:50:28Z ecraven: I thought about using apl symbols for some apl tests in scheme, but mit-scheme doesn't like many of them :-/
2017-01-13T20:52:09Z gwatt: what rnrs does mit-scheme implement? 4|5?
2017-01-13T20:52:09Z ecraven: Riastradh: unless you have any idea how I could fix this?
2017-01-13T20:52:18Z ecraven: yes :P
2017-01-13T20:52:33Z ecraven: actually it's most parts of 3-5, I think
2017-01-13T20:52:37Z ecraven: and even some r7rs
2017-01-13T20:52:46Z ecraven: inexact/exact/parameterize, for example
2017-01-13T20:54:15Z gwatt: parameterize is nice
2017-01-13T20:55:10Z ecraven: I don't like that you access the value with (foo), makes it very hard to find all places where any parameter is used
2017-01-13T20:55:17Z ecraven: (fluid foo) was nicer for that, imho
2017-01-13T20:55:41Z ecraven: also (foo 'x) to *set* the parameter seems like a *very* bad idea, but that's not part of r7rs, I think
2017-01-13T20:55:42Z Riastradh: ecraven: ; -*- coding: utf8 -*-
2017-01-13T20:56:47Z ecraven: Illegal character: #\U+8c
2017-01-13T20:57:05Z ecraven: for (define (二本語 x) "x")
2017-01-13T20:57:18Z Riastradh: Must've misremembered the incantation.
2017-01-13T20:57:25Z Riastradh: That, or I hallucinated that jrm implemented it.
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2017-01-13T21:00:01Z ecraven: but some sort of magic comment should fix it? then I'll just look for it myself, thank you!
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2017-01-13T21:00:37Z Riastradh: I think I may have hallucinated it.
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2017-01-13T21:02:10Z ecraven: I think I talked to you about this many years ago, and it didn't work then :-/
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2017-01-13T21:03:40Z Riastradh: Could be!
2017-01-13T21:03:49Z Riastradh: If you want to fix it, everything's contained in src/runtime/parse.scm.
2017-01-13T21:04:08Z Riastradh: The file attribute parsing is done for you; you just need to examine the CODING attribute and do something with it.
2017-01-13T21:05:49Z weinholt: could be utf-8 rather than utf8
2017-01-13T21:06:05Z ecraven: I'll have a look, thank you!
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2017-01-14T00:19:44Z koz_: I'm a bit confused about how to properly use SRFI-27 to generate random numbers from a fixed seed.
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2017-01-14T00:21:12Z koz_: Could someone show me the way? The last thing I tried was http://paste.lisp.org/display/336501 (in a REPL), but this made Chibi segfault.
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2017-01-14T00:58:18Z koz_: Never mind - figured it out.
2017-01-14T00:58:44Z koz_: Now I'm having a different issue - when using 'write-bytevector' in Chibi's REPL, I don't get any output - I always just get #t and nothing else.
2017-01-14T00:58:53Z koz_: I'm not giving it a port argument - what am I missing?
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2017-01-14T06:08:56Z foof`: koz_: random-source-pseudo-randomize! mutates the source and returns an unspecified value
2017-01-14T06:09:22Z foof`: you were trying to use the result as a new random source
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2017-01-14T06:09:52Z foof`: I've added a check for this so it gives an error message now instead of segfaulting
2017-01-14T06:12:08Z koz_: foof`: Thanks! I figured it out on my own, but the error message will help people after me.
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2017-01-14T06:12:48Z Riastradh: Reminds me of a fun commit message, to the effect of:  `Fix array indexing error leading to random kernel memory corruption.  And by ``random'', I don't mean ``arbitrary'' but rather ``chosen by a crypto-strength pseudorandom number generator''.'
2017-01-14T06:21:42Z koz_: foof`: You're Alex Shinn? If so, thank you for writing Chibi!
2017-01-14T06:33:52Z foof`: you're welcome!
2017-01-14T06:35:17Z kori: foof`: I dont personally use chibi but I echo that statement
2017-01-14T06:35:19Z kori: thanks
2017-01-14T06:38:20Z koz_: Also, does anyone here use (Neo)vim to edit Scheme? If so, what's your setup like?
2017-01-14T06:38:32Z koz_ is fishing for advice on what plugins/settings to use.
2017-01-14T06:39:42Z kori: koz_: yep
2017-01-14T06:40:07Z kori: https://github.com/kori/cfg/blob/master/nvim/init.vim#L12
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2017-01-14T06:41:40Z koz_: kori: That's ... surprisingly simple. I'll just go look up what those do.
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2017-01-14T06:57:31Z kori: koz_: slurping/barfing (paredit) are the actions I use the most
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2017-01-14T12:02:22Z quigonjinn: hello. Is there any scheme compiler that is known to produce binaries for the risc-v architecture?
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2017-01-14T12:04:56Z koz_: quigonjinn: You could use something like Bigloo to compile down to C, then run that through GCC or whatever.
2017-01-14T12:05:35Z koz_: You could probably port Chibi to RISC-V pretty easily as well - it's quite portable C code without any external dependencies IIRC.
2017-01-14T12:05:55Z quigonjinn: koz_: i'll take a look into both. thanks
2017-01-14T12:06:37Z koz_: (although Chibi doesn't produce binaries per se)
2017-01-14T12:08:51Z jonaslund: chicken produces C also ?
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2017-01-14T12:13:24Z jonaslund: (chicken would require a working setjmp/longjmp function but if that doesn't work you probably have a fairly immature toolchain anyhow)
2017-01-14T12:32:30Z qu1j0t3: jonaslund: yeah, was about to say
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2017-01-14T23:31:33Z koz_: How does Chibi handle library searches? I've defined a library called (koz foo), started Chibi REPL in the same directory as the file that holds it, and tried to (import (koz foo)), which didn't work.
2017-01-14T23:31:38Z koz_: Do I need to load the file first or something?
2017-01-14T23:34:16Z koz_: Yeah, seems like I do, but then it barfs at me.
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2017-01-14T23:36:34Z gwatt: koz_: does chibi expect a directory structure? I.e., library (koz foo) will be in a file 'koz/foo.scm' ?
2017-01-14T23:36:55Z koz_: gwatt: Apparently I need a .sld.
2017-01-14T23:37:14Z koz_: I'm a little confused - kinda hoping foof` might spot this and help me out.
2017-01-14T23:37:41Z koz_: I know my code works if I just write it without define-library and load it, but I guess using libraries is the right way.
2017-01-14T23:39:53Z koz_: I'm not even sure what .slds are meant to contain...
2017-01-14T23:40:05Z koz_: Is it like a .h file in C or something?
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2017-01-15T06:33:26Z rjungemann: I'd love to know about this too. Been starting to write some libraries (with chibi, but hopefully with some compatibility with other R7RS schemes through `cond-expand`)
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2017-01-15T21:50:52Z koz_: Is display not part of (scheme base)?
2017-01-15T21:50:59Z koz_: If so, what do I need to import to have it available?
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2017-01-15T21:55:08Z koz_: Never mind, found it.
2017-01-15T21:55:20Z ecraven: where was it? (scheme write)?
2017-01-15T21:55:29Z koz_: ecraven: Yeah.
2017-01-15T21:56:02Z koz_: Also, I'm a bit confused about the difference between writing code in an R7RS library inside (begin) as opposed to using (include) to get it from a file.
2017-01-15T21:56:06Z koz_: Does it make any difference?
2017-01-15T21:56:34Z ecraven: I am not sure, but I think it should be the same
2017-01-15T21:56:57Z ecraven: as far as I know, `include' directly includes the code, so it should be the same as if you directly wrote it in that place
2017-01-15T21:57:10Z koz_: ecraven: Yeah, I thought so too.
2017-01-15T21:57:10Z ecraven: unfortunately my scheme of choice does not support `include'
2017-01-15T21:57:28Z koz_: ecraven: I just use Chibi - it's R7RS-compliant, and has enough SRFIs implemented to do what I need.
2017-01-15T21:57:45Z ecraven: yes, I've been using chibi recently a bit, and it's a great system
2017-01-15T21:58:00Z koz_: ecraven: Agreed.
2017-01-15T21:58:03Z ecraven: however, it does not compare favourably in speed to compiling schemes (which is entirely ok, as that is not one of its goals)
2017-01-15T21:58:12Z koz_: That's not really a surprise to anyone.
2017-01-15T21:58:38Z koz_: And I'm not really after speed too much - what I'm hacking up right now is prototype code.
2017-01-15T21:58:43Z ecraven: but for all "portable" code I'll write in the future, I'll probably use chibi (also to make sure it is r7rs compliant)
2017-01-15T21:58:48Z koz_: (and I'll rewrite the speed-critical parts in C anyway)
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2017-01-15T22:13:59Z ecraven: does chibi have functions for interacting with https websites/
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2017-01-15T22:15:10Z koz_: ecraven: Not that I'm aware of.
2017-01-15T22:15:15Z koz_: But you could probably write some curl bindings or something.
2017-01-15T22:15:37Z koz_: (Chibi's FFI looks pretty nice)
2017-01-15T22:15:41Z ecraven: yea, just thought there might be something already
2017-01-15T22:24:16Z koz_: Do I need a begin inside a let body, or is there an implicit one there
2017-01-15T22:24:18Z koz_: ?
2017-01-15T22:26:11Z pjb: http://www.schemers.org/Documents/Standards/R5RS/HTML/
2017-01-15T22:26:58Z koz_: pjb: Is there one like that for R7RS too?
2017-01-15T22:27:38Z pjb: probably. check http://www.schemers.org
2017-01-15T22:27:53Z koz_: pjb: I looked on the R7RS site, but I only found the PDF version.
2017-01-15T22:28:03Z pjb: Good enough!
2017-01-15T22:30:42Z koz_: Seems like there is an implicit begin, if I'm reading it right.
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2017-01-16T05:17:08Z koz_: I'm getting something weird from Chibi that I can't understand. MWE: http://ix.io/1QbQ/scheme Could someone tell me what I donkeyed there?
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2017-01-16T05:20:40Z koz_: ... never mind, I see it now. Derpity-derp.
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2017-01-16T07:50:43Z sepisoad: is there a lua like scheme implementation which is portable (like lua) and easy to embed into c/c++ programs?
2017-01-16T07:52:50Z ecraven: sepisoad: chibi-scheme comes to mind
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2017-01-16T07:54:07Z sepisoad: chibi is kind of hard to port to windows, currently it depends on Cygwin which is scary
2017-01-16T07:54:20Z ecraven: ah, never know that it doesn't work on windows
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2017-01-16T07:57:03Z ecraven: I have no idea which schemes work on windows :-/
2017-01-16T07:57:57Z sepisoad: ecraven, NVM ;)
2017-01-16T07:58:00Z wasamasa: racket?
2017-01-16T07:58:30Z wasamasa: I've tried it on mac os x and it works great there
2017-01-16T08:00:11Z sepisoad: wasamasa, I want to embed it in C, racket is a giant beast and does not fit
2017-01-16T08:00:35Z wasamasa: sepisoad: well, yes, I'm aware, it just fits the "works well on windows" department
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2017-01-16T08:02:05Z wasamasa: I should try lua some day, it seems to be a less insane JS
2017-01-16T08:02:19Z wasamasa: and knowing the language would help me with various projects betting on it
2017-01-16T08:03:18Z sepisoad: it's insanely awesome
2017-01-16T08:03:48Z mario-goulart: sepisoad: maybe CHICKEN?
2017-01-16T08:04:42Z sepisoad: mario-goulart, NOOO, It does't fit as well
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2017-01-16T08:05:59Z mario-goulart: sepisoad: I see, but why?
2017-01-16T08:06:05Z mario-goulart: Too big?
2017-01-16T08:07:40Z sepisoad: mario-goulart, yes
2017-01-16T08:09:25Z mario-goulart: sepisoad: ok.  How big can a scheme be for your use case?
2017-01-16T08:11:27Z sepisoad: i want to source include it into my project, or use it as a static lib, chicken source tree is huge and tricky to compile on different platforms
2017-01-16T08:13:39Z mario-goulart: Well, if you don't specify what "big", "small" and "huge" are, it's hard to suggest something.
2017-01-16T08:14:00Z ecraven: tinyscheme?
2017-01-16T08:14:05Z ecraven: that's supposed to be small
2017-01-16T08:14:09Z sepisoad: mario-goulart, that's why i mentioned lua
2017-01-16T08:14:49Z sepisoad: ecraven, yes tinyscheme look promising
2017-01-16T08:14:49Z ecraven: well, chibi would fit all that, I've considered using it as a replacement for lua in some projects myself. but if it doesn't work well on windows, and you need that, that's not good :-/
2017-01-16T08:15:31Z sepisoad: but I have trouble compiling it, because the code is not ansi standard
2017-01-16T08:16:54Z ecraven: fix chibi to work well on windows :p
2017-01-16T08:17:59Z sepisoad: haha :)
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2017-01-16T08:24:41Z sepisoad: I found something on #lisp channel, though it's not scheme but seems promising, it's called ECL
2017-01-16T08:25:27Z jackdaniel: chicken has a similar features I think. Either way, if you have any ecl-specific questions, there is a low-volume #ecl channel
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2017-01-16T08:32:14Z C-Keen: sepisoad: then you might be better off with a an older but smaller scheme like tinyscheme or SIOD
2017-01-16T08:32:34Z C-Keen: those are R4RS but for scripting purposes it should not matter much
2017-01-16T08:32:54Z C-Keen: tinyscheme is known to work very well on windows ;)
2017-01-16T08:36:12Z wasamasa: um, ECL is about as big as CHICKEN, if not even bigger
2017-01-16T08:36:40Z jackdaniel doesn't know about chicken size, but ECL is small
2017-01-16T08:36:54Z wasamasa: and yeah, tinyscheme is bound to be as its greatest success is being distributed in malware
2017-01-16T08:36:57Z jackdaniel: library takes around 100KB /before/ stripping
2017-01-16T08:40:18Z jackdaniel: s/library/binary/
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2017-01-16T09:03:18Z mario-goulart: The CHICKEN runtime is ~5MB, FYI.
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2017-01-16T13:49:47Z foof`: koz_: the define-library form goes in koz/foo.sld
2017-01-16T13:53:29Z foof`: sepisoad: chibi is quite portable, and has compiled on windows in the past.  if it doesn't currently it should be a matter of fixing one or two includes.
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2017-01-17T02:21:34Z rjungemann: Hey foof`, I know about (current-directory) in chibi, but is there a way to get the path to the current script?
2017-01-17T02:22:16Z rjungemann: Something like Bash's `dirname $0` or Ruby's `File.dirname(__FILE__)`
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2017-01-17T03:17:44Z rjungemann: Haha, here's the solution I came up with for now. I get the pid of the current script, run `ps -ef` in a subprocess, find the line corresponding to the pid, and then try and process out the path from there. https://gist.github.com/rjungemann/5418f25c1eeee39f46801e18f69198fd
2017-01-17T03:18:35Z rjungemann needs to learn to loop better without depending on for-each and call/cc
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2017-01-18T22:33:42Z koz_: foof`: I'm getting a strange error from this: http://ix.io/1QqI . When I run it using 'chibi-scheme name-of-this-file.scm', I get an error on line 10 that 'i' is not defined. Given that I just defined it in the loop above, this is a bit strange. Did I miss something about (chibi test)?
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2017-01-18T23:04:42Z gwatt: koz_: does (do ((i 0 (+ i 1))) ((= i 16) i)) work?
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2017-01-19T00:18:22Z Guest88196: hey guys
2017-01-19T00:18:31Z Guest88196: Allah is doing
2017-01-19T00:18:46Z Guest88196: sun is not doing allah is doing
2017-01-19T00:18:49Z Guest88196: to accept Islam say that i bear witness that there is no deity worthy of worship except Allah and Muhammad peace be upon him is his slave and messenger
2017-01-19T00:20:34Z Riastradh: That's great, but this channel is about the Scheme programming language.
2017-01-19T00:22:29Z davexunit: this happens frequently.  anyone an op here?
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2017-01-19T00:32:20Z koz_: gwatt: I'll just try that now.
2017-01-19T00:33:37Z koz_: gwatt: I still get exactly the same error in exactly the same place.
2017-01-19T00:33:55Z koz_: I suspect test-runner is a macro and I've run afoul of some interesting expansions.
2017-01-19T00:34:07Z koz_: Given that (chibi test) is not standard, I'm not sure what to expect.
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2017-01-19T01:50:42Z gwatt: koz_: I didn't have a problem with the expression I posted in chibi.
2017-01-19T01:51:01Z koz_: gwatt: Weird... I'll have another look and see what I donkeyed.
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2017-01-19T01:51:39Z gwatt: But unless test-runner does some really wacky non-hygienic things, it should still work
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2017-01-19T08:03:48Z ecraven: does anyone have sqlite3 bindings for chibi?
2017-01-19T08:04:38Z C-Keen: moin
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2017-01-19T08:30:07Z wasamasa: C-Keen: ITYM allah says moin
2017-01-19T08:33:55Z C-Keen: lol
2017-01-19T08:34:03Z C-Keen: made my day
2017-01-19T08:34:09Z C-Keen: <3 wasamasa
2017-01-19T08:42:58Z ecraven: hm.. anyone here good with the chibi ffi?
2017-01-19T08:43:21Z ecraven: how would I specify an output parameter of type "sqlite3 **" correctly?
2017-01-19T08:43:29Z ecraven: (it should return the pointer to scheme)
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2017-01-19T08:59:35Z wasamasa: how exactly does one convert a procedure walking over a (directory) tree to be tail-recursive?
2017-01-19T09:00:53Z wasamasa: I have some vague memories of including a stack (when doing that in java), but can't remember the details
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2017-01-19T09:06:34Z ecraven: wasamasa: maybe use a list of remaining entries as an accumulator, and pass that to the next recursive call?
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2017-01-19T09:17:56Z wasamasa: hm, so start with a directory listing, check the first item, continue with rest if it's a file, append directory listing of it to rest if it's a directory, terminate on null list
2017-01-19T09:18:29Z wasamasa: that would be a BFS approach, right?
2017-01-19T09:20:20Z wasamasa: and for DFS, you would probably prepend the directory listing to the rest for the directory case
2017-01-19T09:21:17Z wasamasa: which sounds like something a stack would be good for
2017-01-19T09:22:59Z wasamasa: thanks for playing the rubber ducky
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2017-01-19T09:35:49Z ecraven: np. yea, depending on where you append, it's breadth or depth first
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2017-01-19T09:39:11Z wasamasa: I suppose I should be using find-files instead and not worry about the underlying algorithm
2017-01-19T09:39:23Z wasamasa: as in, the one from CHICKEN's posix unit
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2017-01-19T10:00:44Z ecraven: until you profile that this is your bottleneck, probably
2017-01-19T10:01:01Z ecraven: also, due to all the consing, I'd guess that iterative is slower than recursive in this concrete case
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2017-01-19T10:08:15Z wasamasa: doubtful, all I want to do is adding inotify watches for all directories inside one
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2017-01-19T10:15:01Z ecraven: ah, I did this once...
2017-01-19T10:15:06Z ecraven: not sure where, maybe I can find the code
2017-01-19T10:15:16Z ecraven: nope :-/
2017-01-19T10:15:25Z ecraven: I think I switched to not using inotify, as it was on an nfs volume
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2017-01-19T14:32:33Z foof`: koz_: you need to import (scheme base), or some other language which has things like `do' and `='
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2017-01-19T21:03:46Z jcowan: hey ho
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2017-01-19T21:08:40Z jcowan: I'm thinking about how R7RS-large maybe should be a post-inheritance language
2017-01-19T21:09:54Z jcowan: It isn't clear to me that record inheritance actually makes much sense, given that we don't have methods
2017-01-19T21:10:11Z jcowan: (I intend to propose generic functions, but based on predicates rather than classes)
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2017-01-19T21:30:42Z jcowan: The SRFI 113 sample implementation has "sob" objects that aren't exposed, but contain a field that says whether they are sets or bags.  In a OO language, I might have an abstract class Sob and two subclasses Set and Bag, to the same effect.
2017-01-19T21:32:35Z rjungemann: Chibi has a nice generic system based on predicates. I tried my hand at implementing my own version of Clojure's defmulti
2017-01-19T21:34:40Z jcowan: Yes, it's the chibi one I have in mind
2017-01-19T21:35:39Z jcowan: Now when I wrote that spec, I simply wrote sob-member? to do the work of determining if an element is in a sob or not, and then trivial set-member? and bag-member? to tail-call it.
2017-01-19T21:35:45Z jcowan: s/spec/implementation
2017-01-19T21:36:29Z jcowan: So adding a third type, say LimitedBag (where there are at most n identical elements, and you choose n when you create it) would require hacking on the existing implementation, but not in a very heavy way.
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2017-01-19T21:39:03Z jcowan: And there is no guarantee in an OO system that you won't have to do similar things (the "fragile superclass problem")
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2017-01-19T22:05:38Z rjungemann: It would not be so hard for someone to retrofit any sort of functionality on top. They could even import in an implementation of SRFI 99 and check the ancestors list if they wanted
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2017-01-19T22:13:55Z jcowan: There's a conflict, though, about whether the slot names are symbols or identifiers, and Schemers don't have a consensus on this.
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2017-01-20T02:41:52Z koz_: foof`: Derp, thank you! Forgot that important detail.
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2017-01-21T09:59:50Z kammd: Hey guys which scheme implementation is available or portable to AIX on power?
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2017-01-21T10:01:13Z mario-goulart: kammd: maybe CHICKEN works.  Try "make PLATFORM=aix PREFIX=/wherever/you/prefer install"
2017-01-21T10:01:45Z mario-goulart: kammd: also check the README file for notes on AIX.
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2017-01-21T11:03:11Z jmd: How can I flatten a list of lists into a single list?
2017-01-21T11:03:32Z wasamasa: (apply append ...)
2017-01-21T11:03:51Z wasamasa: alternatively, use append-map from SRFI-1 when creating that list
2017-01-21T11:05:07Z jmd: wasamasa: Thanks.
2017-01-21T11:05:19Z wasamasa: note that this will only flatten by one level
2017-01-21T11:08:43Z wasamasa: if you want to flatten all levels, ask yourself why your data is that deeply nested, then write a recursive flatten procedure
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2017-01-21T11:14:05Z taylan: jmd: 'concatenate' is equivalent to (apply append list-of-lists) but is sure not to hit implementation limits on the number of arguments allowed  http://srfi.schemers.org/srfi-1/srfi-1.html#concatenate
2017-01-21T11:14:51Z taylan: not sure if any halfway serious scheme implementation nowadays has such low limits though.  IIRC Chicken has a limit but it's something like 4096 I think
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2017-01-21T11:15:59Z wasamasa: IIRC CHICKEN got rid of the limit during the argvector change
2017-01-21T11:15:59Z taylan: can't find such a limit in Chicken by googling.  I may be totally off.  better ask Chickeneers if it interests you.
2017-01-21T11:18:25Z wasamasa: http://lists.nongnu.org/archive/html/chicken-hackers/2015-07/msg00035.html
2017-01-21T11:18:57Z wasamasa: tl;dr: there is a new limit now
2017-01-21T11:20:07Z wasamasa: so it's no longer something ridiculously low on certain platforms :P
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2017-01-21T12:07:06Z taylan: 'The "official" arg-limit is 2000 now.'  less than I thought
2017-01-21T12:07:28Z wasamasa: previously it was like 128 on windows
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2017-01-21T12:43:22Z kammd: mario-goulart: thanks.. will check it out..
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2017-01-21T14:50:45Z mrrtrump: hello
2017-01-21T14:51:03Z mrrtrump: I saw an essay on something faster than regex  DCG
2017-01-21T14:51:10Z mrrtrump: has anyone implemented in scheme?
2017-01-21T14:51:16Z mrrtrump: or something even nicer?
2017-01-21T14:51:17Z mrrtrump: :)
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2017-01-21T15:40:56Z ecraven: lots of things are faster then regular expressions ;p
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2017-01-21T18:56:44Z jmd: What's the best way to splice a list?
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2017-01-21T19:05:02Z C-Keen: depends
2017-01-21T19:06:30Z jmd: C-Keen: upon?
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2017-01-21T19:07:26Z C-Keen: your use casw jmd
2017-01-21T19:08:03Z jmd: :)
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2017-01-21T19:16:24Z Fare: jmd: with a saw?
2017-01-21T19:16:49Z C-Keen: heh
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2017-01-21T19:20:42Z Fare: if you find a super elegant solution, publish it at the scheme workshop! :-)
2017-01-21T19:21:11Z Fare: http://scheme2017.namin.org
2017-01-21T19:31:00Z wasamasa: jmd: srfi-1 has a few
2017-01-21T19:31:13Z wasamasa: jmd: or do you want to implement it yourself?
2017-01-21T19:33:31Z jmd: I'll check out srfi-1.  Thanks.
2017-01-21T19:34:16Z C-Keen: it also depends on how many lists, are they of equal length etc
2017-01-21T19:36:19Z wasamasa: hum, I've read "split a list"
2017-01-21T19:36:27Z wasamasa: what does splice even mean in that context?
2017-01-21T19:36:36Z wasamasa: if you want to concatenate a few, use append
2017-01-21T19:36:52Z C-Keen: or map if only the shorter list needs to win
2017-01-21T19:39:30Z jmd: I want to insert a list into the middle of another list.
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2017-01-21T19:39:55Z wasamasa: how do you determine the middle?
2017-01-21T19:40:41Z jmd: I have the index.
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2017-01-21T19:42:03Z C-Keen: split the list there, append the head the new list and the tail. Or destructively set-cdr! on the last pair of the first half to the head of the new list then set-cdr! the tail of the new list to the head of the second half
2017-01-21T19:42:37Z C-Keen: there's stuff ready to use in srfi-1
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2017-01-21T19:49:31Z koz_: +1 to SRFI-1. If you need to do list things, it's the place to go.
2017-01-21T19:49:40Z koz_: (and your Scheme implementation most likely has it)
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2017-01-21T23:38:31Z koz_: foof`: You say that Chibi compiles to Emscripten. Does that mean I can write Chibi code that runs inside a browser?
2017-01-21T23:38:39Z koz_: s/to/with/
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2017-01-21T23:48:04Z koz_: Also, is there any kind of profiler for Chibi?
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2017-01-22T01:16:03Z koz_: Also, I can't seem to make Chibi use more than 25% of my CPU, even when using SRFI-18.
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2017-01-22T02:12:31Z qu1j0t3: how many cores you got>
2017-01-22T02:13:19Z qu1j0t3: hm, curious, i've never used that srfi
2017-01-22T02:13:39Z qu1j0t3: koz_: maybe you can pastebin the code?
2017-01-22T02:13:41Z qu1j0t3: .b 4
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2017-01-22T02:47:56Z koz_: qu1j0t3: I have 4 cores. I've figured out the reason why - Chibi's VM doesn't have that kind of capability, so the threads it provides are coroutine-like.
2017-01-22T02:48:11Z koz_: (i.e. each instance of the VM eats at most 25% of the CPU, and the threads timeshare)
2017-01-22T02:48:21Z koz_: (it's ok - just means I need a mightier implementation)
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2017-01-22T03:04:34Z rjungemann: koz_ yes you can run scheme in the browser with emscripten
2017-01-22T03:05:22Z rjungemann: Re threads there are tricks (multiple vms in same process for example) but yeah if you want native threads out of the box you'll want to look at other schemes
2017-01-22T03:06:32Z rjungemann: I am dabbling with doing an mmap + multi-process approach like ocaml uses for a little project. If I can figure out how to package a c-wrapper I'll make a snow package for mmap
2017-01-22T03:07:35Z koz_: rjungemann: I'm looking into other Schemes, and I've found a few promising ones. Need small rewrites, but not too many (mostly I leaned on SRFIs).
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2017-01-22T03:08:47Z koz_: rjungemann: As far as Scheme in the browser with Emscripten - what exactly would you need to do? I guess step 1 is 'Compile Chibi with it', but what's step 2 then?
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2017-01-22T03:09:52Z rjungemann: I think you build chibi into a JS file and load a separate scheme file with it. Haven't tried it yet but there are examples in the chibi-scheme repo
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2017-01-22T03:11:21Z rjungemann: Yeah the way I explained it seems to hold true https://github.com/ashinn/chibi-scheme/tree/master/js
2017-01-22T03:11:58Z rjungemann: https://chibi-scheme.appspot.com is a live demo
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2017-01-22T03:12:53Z koz_: rjungemann: Thanks very much - I will look at those.
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2017-01-22T04:30:14Z koz_: Argh, this is annoying - yet another Scheme without native threads.
2017-01-22T04:31:44Z koz_: Could someone suggest me a Scheme with native threads? Preferably with standard compliance with R6RS or R7RS and a decent range of SRFIs.
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2017-01-22T05:18:56Z rjungemann: Cyclone I think
2017-01-22T05:19:32Z rjungemann: The reason it is not more common is, from what I can tell, it makes the usual GC techniques more difficult and it also makes call-cc and dynamic-wind behavior more difficult to handle
2017-01-22T05:20:20Z rjungemann: Chibi can have multiple VMs running in one process, and so implementing agent-like behavior would not be hard with a little bit of C glue
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2017-01-22T05:21:20Z rjungemann: Yep Cyclone definitely does, http://justinethier.github.io/cyclone/ and it supports R7RS
2017-01-22T05:33:21Z rjungemann: s/agent/actor
2017-01-22T05:33:41Z koz_: rjungemann: Yeah, I figured Cyclone too. Now I'm getting weird behaviour from its compiler...
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2017-01-22T05:38:00Z rjungemann: Cyclone's creator is in this channel. I don't remember what his handle is :¬/
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2017-01-22T05:45:02Z koz_: rjungemann: Well, I've put it up as an issue on Cyclone's Github page, so they'll see it one way or the other.
2017-01-22T05:45:17Z koz_: (also, the fact I'm having to write FFI code for bit manipulation is annoying)
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2017-01-22T05:47:31Z rjungemann: Yeah it's not defined in R7RS proper, and Cyclone doesn't have SRFI 33 support at least yet
2017-01-22T05:48:13Z koz_: rjungemann: It wasn't too difficult to write up (it's mostly just very boring 'unbox, operate, rewrap' boilerplate).
2017-01-22T05:48:22Z koz_: Also, I thought SRFI 33 was withdrawn in the end?
2017-01-22T05:48:59Z rjungemann: Yeah I guess you're right. Chibi has SRFI 33 support
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2017-01-22T05:50:49Z koz_: rjungemann: Yeah, that's true. Well, I only need a few of them (shifts, or and and), so writing FFI code for them wasn't really that challenging.
2017-01-22T05:51:04Z koz_: (at least, I *hope* I got it right)
2017-01-22T05:53:07Z rjungemann: That's awesome!
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2017-01-22T05:58:11Z koz_: rjungemann: Hopefully once this issue gets addressed, it'll all work. :)
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2017-01-22T06:47:32Z koz_: Wtf Cyclone, y u no export thread-join! for SRFI-18?
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2017-01-22T07:15:26Z rjungemann: Well it's pretty new
2017-01-22T07:17:25Z rjungemann: I'm sure the author would accept a PR
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2017-01-22T07:22:23Z koz_: rjungemann: I might just have to do that, but probably not today. I've reported it as well - hopefully someone might beat me to the punch.
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2017-01-22T07:38:09Z foof`: koz_: yes, see http://chibi-scheme.appspot.com/
2017-01-22T07:39:16Z foof`: there's not much in the way of profiling. you can compile with vm profiling enabled, but that just tells you the distribution of opcodes.
2017-01-22T07:39:50Z koz_: foof`: Thanks - I figured as much.
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2017-01-22T07:59:20Z rjungemann: foof` Is it possible to take a sexp created in one vm instance and pass it to another vm instance? Just passing it to the second vm instance seems to segfault. It's a lambda, and I am preserving it and making sure the first vm sticks around for the lifetime of the second
2017-01-22T08:00:06Z rjungemann: (I wouldn't expect what I'm doing to work. Presumably I would have to clone it or something, or maybe it must be serialized somehow and then deserialized?)
2017-01-22T08:00:50Z rjungemann: Oh and this is in Chibi of course :¬)
2017-01-22T08:01:57Z rjungemann: I'm doing some investigation to see how hard implementing a basic CSP system would be
2017-01-22T08:02:07Z koz_: In case the Cyclone folks are watching - define-library *definitely* has missing functionality. Neither rename nor except seem to do what they're meant to.
2017-01-22T08:02:20Z koz_: (this has resulted in me chasing weirdness for about 2 hours)
2017-01-22T08:06:55Z koz_: I'll make a proper MWE and issues closer to tomorrow.
2017-01-22T08:10:51Z koz_: rjungemann: My issues just don't end... On the plus side however, the FFI stuff worked like a charm.
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2017-01-22T08:11:28Z rjungemann: Good luck!
2017-01-22T08:12:38Z koz_: rjungemann: I might just need it...
2017-01-22T08:12:50Z koz_: (did I mention this is for work I need to have ready in ~4 days...)
2017-01-22T08:12:57Z koz_: (I really shouldn't do this to myself)
2017-01-22T08:13:44Z rjungemann: It's a good way to learn I suppose
2017-01-22T08:14:56Z koz_: rjungemann: Yeah, definitely. Just hopeful my PhD supervisor's understanding.
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2017-01-22T08:17:04Z rjungemann: I haven't looked but I have to imagine there's an example of a library for cyclone which has c code in it. Possible as a stop-gap you could clone the cyclone repo and define the functions you need as built-in cyclone functions. I did this with chibi as an experiment, it was not too bad
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2017-01-22T08:17:41Z rjungemann: Oh and my chibi question was a false alarm. User error haha
2017-01-22T08:17:54Z koz_: rjungemann: thread-join! is a bit trickier - I'd need to read how the threads are implemented there to properly write it.
2017-01-22T08:18:11Z koz_: The other stuff (issues with define-library) is probably some macrology, which I'm not very good with.
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2017-01-22T08:20:24Z rjungemann: Hm good question re `thread-join!`. If it uses pthreads, the simple solution of calling `pthread_join` from c is worth a shot. Might be more complicated than that
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2017-01-22T08:21:14Z koz_: rjungemann: It'd take a bit of reading of the sauce code, and right now, it's 9.30-odd pm here, and I've been hacking on Scheme code since about 10am. So I'm a bit tired. :P
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2017-01-22T08:24:52Z jonaslund: don't use pthread_join
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2017-01-22T08:25:14Z jonaslund: seems that the GC has per-thread information associated
2017-01-22T08:25:22Z jonaslund: (and probably other parts also)
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2017-01-22T08:26:53Z rjungemann: Thanks jonaslund! I'll have to look into this more
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2017-01-22T08:31:39Z rjungemann: In the meantime, a hot loop may suffice?
2017-01-22T08:32:43Z rjungemann: Mmm there's an example of blocking on a mutex until a child thread completes. https://github.com/justinethier/cyclone/blob/master/examples/threading/thread-join.scm
2017-01-22T08:32:57Z koz_: rjungemann: I might have to just do that instead.
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2017-01-22T13:34:31Z ManDay: If I (cons (x!) (A)) and x! has a side effect which concern A, is that well defined?
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2017-01-22T13:41:04Z jackdaniel: ManDay: in scheme there is no guarantee about order of evaluating arguments, so no
2017-01-22T13:41:14Z pjb: He's out.
2017-01-22T13:41:20Z jackdaniel: ah
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2017-01-22T13:41:56Z pjb: ManDay: it is not defined in scheme.
2017-01-22T13:42:11Z pjb: ManDay: You'd want Common Lisp for a clear specification of the left-to-right order of evaluation.
2017-01-22T13:42:46Z ManDay: well i guess it's only proper to not specify it. I would have thought less of scheme if it were ;-)
2017-01-22T13:42:53Z pjb: ManDay: When you translate from CL to scheme, you have to write (let ((arg1 (x!)) (arg2 (A))) (cons arg1 arg2)) for each expression!
2017-01-22T13:43:23Z ManDay: so the let somehow imposes order?
2017-01-22T13:43:33Z wasamasa: not really
2017-01-22T13:43:38Z wasamasa: let makes bindings in parallel
2017-01-22T13:43:48Z pjb: Oops, no.
2017-01-22T13:43:58Z pjb: (let ((arg1 (x!))) (let ((arg2 (A))) (cons arg1 arg2)))
2017-01-22T13:44:31Z ManDay: how does this make sure arg2 is bound after arg1's x! was evaluated?
2017-01-22T13:44:40Z pjb: or let*, but being careful about the name of temporary variables, yes.
2017-01-22T13:45:14Z pjb: With embedded lets, it's necessary since the init forms are evaluated before the body.
2017-01-22T13:45:29Z ManDay: i don't understand how this works, sorry
2017-01-22T13:47:14Z jackdaniel: let first estabilishes new bindings for the created lexical scope and then evaluates its body, so you have order – bindings first, body later
2017-01-22T13:47:41Z jackdaniel: so if you nest let, you have arg1 binding first, then arg2 binding (second let) and at last consing of arg1 and arg2
2017-01-22T13:47:45Z pjb: Well, let evaluates first the init forms.  Then it establishes the bindings.  Then it evaluates the body.
2017-01-22T13:47:58Z ManDay: jackdaniel: but then this example is not entirely correct
2017-01-22T13:48:17Z jackdaniel: yes, pjb put too much parens :)
2017-01-22T13:48:29Z ManDay: it should be a (let ([arg1 (x!)]) (cons arg1 (A))) no?
2017-01-22T13:48:35Z jackdaniel: no, he didn't, I misread
2017-01-22T13:49:08Z ManDay: But then how is the side-effect ordered w.r.t. the (A)? They are both in the binding of the let, not one in the binding and the other in the body
2017-01-22T13:50:00Z jackdaniel: ManDay: (let ([arg1 (x!)]) (let ([arg2 (A)]) (cons arg1 arg2)) guarantees you, that first x! is evaluated, then A, and at the very last results are consed
2017-01-22T13:50:38Z ManDay: oooh
2017-01-22T13:50:52Z ManDay: i'm very sorry. I thought pjb had only wrote one let. of course now it's clear
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2017-01-22T13:51:52Z ManDay: Totally irrelevant question: Any one any idea why vim won't correctly syntax-highlight the contents between a #| |# ?
2017-01-22T13:52:13Z pjb: This is a comment. What do you want to highlight in there?
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2017-01-22T13:52:18Z ManDay: (by correctly I mean not highlight it at all)
2017-01-22T13:52:47Z ManDay: pjb: It highlights the #| as errors and the contents between like normal code. fileextention being ss
2017-01-22T13:52:54Z ManDay: (ft=scheme)
2017-01-22T13:53:46Z wasamasa: #| |# is only specified in a SRFI
2017-01-22T13:53:49Z pjb: That said, in r5rs, the only way to introduce comments is with semicolon.
2017-01-22T13:53:52Z wasamasa: it's not a core language thing
2017-01-22T13:54:21Z ManDay: ah ok ty
2017-01-22T13:54:30Z wasamasa: not sure about #;
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2017-01-22T13:55:47Z pjb: In emacs you can just add font-lock keywords for your special syntaxes. I guess you can do the same in vim, can't you?
2017-01-22T13:58:18Z ManDay: dunno. my vim knowledge is ultra limited
2017-01-22T13:58:54Z ManDay: i can fix the syntax definition allright and add comment chars, yeah
2017-01-22T14:05:07Z jackdaniel: wasamasa: #; is a block comment?
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2017-01-22T14:06:19Z wasamasa: s-expression comment
2017-01-22T14:06:38Z ManDay: vim apparently doesn't care about these, either :)
2017-01-22T14:06:40Z wasamasa: very handy to have
2017-01-22T14:08:05Z jackdaniel: thought so (and yes, sexp comment is what I had in mind)
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2017-01-22T22:14:57Z MoronicAcid: Can a Scheme compiler generate more efficient code from a let* block than a letrec block?
2017-01-22T22:15:16Z MoronicAcid: I should say the equivalent letrec block
2017-01-22T22:16:44Z koz_: MoronicAcid: That's too broad a question to be useful. It depends on what the compiler translates to. There's also the 'Sufficiently Smart Compiler' problem: http://prog21.dadgum.com/40.html
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2017-01-22T22:17:40Z MoronicAcid: koz_: Okay, thanks.
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2017-01-23T01:40:21Z koz_: Does anyone know how to interpret the following error from an executable produced with Gambit? '*** ERROR IN | test-runner| -- Operator is not a PROCEDURE (#!unbound 0 0)'
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2017-01-23T01:42:22Z Riastradh: Sounds like there's a magic value written #!unbound which you tried to use as if it were a procedure.
2017-01-23T01:43:05Z pjb: koz_: probably there's an error in the function name.
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2017-01-23T01:50:15Z koz_: pjb: Is there some way to find out which function this error is in?
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2017-01-23T01:50:55Z koz_: (or which non-function - basically, where in the code is the issue)
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2017-01-23T01:58:45Z pjb: koz_: since it has two numerical arguments that are 0, you could first grep for '0 0)' if not fruitful, look for all function calls with two numerical arguments in the source.
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2017-01-23T02:11:20Z koz_: pjb: OK, seems like I was using thread-start! and thread-join! incorrectly somehow.
2017-01-23T02:11:35Z koz_: I managed to narrow it down to the very last part of the code, but I'm confused why it's doing that.
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2017-01-23T02:15:48Z koz_: pjb: Am I missing something here? I'm getting a type exception in my use of thread-join! when grabbing the thread via vector-ref. Code is here: http://ix.io/1QMS/scheme
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2017-01-23T02:16:41Z koz_: It fails on the very first loop rotation (i.e. when i is 0).
2017-01-23T02:17:08Z koz_: (this is meant to be SRFI-18 compatible, and Gambit supports SRFI-18 according to its docs)
2017-01-23T02:18:24Z Riastradh: koz_: What is `test'?
2017-01-23T02:18:42Z koz_: Riastradh: It's at the bottom - it just errors out if its two arguments aren't equal according to 'equal?'.
2017-01-23T02:18:54Z Riastradh: koz_: You didn't define it before you began to use it.
2017-01-23T02:19:09Z koz_: Riastradh: Oh derp.
2017-01-23T02:19:24Z koz_: Let me move that definition up a bit then.
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2017-01-23T02:23:04Z koz_: Riastradh and pjb: OK, I moved the procedure up, and I still get the same problem. Updated source is here: http://ix.io/1QMU/scheme
2017-01-23T02:23:43Z Riastradh: What's `bf-get'?
2017-01-23T02:24:03Z Riastradh: Does Gambit not show a stack trace?
2017-01-23T02:24:10Z Riastradh: Does it not provide a way to show one?
2017-01-23T02:24:26Z koz_: Riastradh: A procedure from bitfield.scm, which is loaded. And no, it doesn't, nor has any way to show one near-as-I-can tell. I can give you the exact error message if it helps.
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2017-01-23T02:26:11Z Riastradh: Where exactly is it failing?  Can you add prints to narrow it down?
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2017-01-23T02:28:19Z koz_: Riastradh: It fails specifically in the final loop, at the iteration where i is 0, at the thread-join! call, with the following error message: http://ix.io/1QMW (combined is the name of the file, without its extension).
2017-01-23T02:29:39Z Riastradh: Does your program work without the threads?
2017-01-23T02:29:50Z Riastradh: E.g., just call bitfield-random-test in the final loop.
2017-01-23T02:30:04Z koz_: Riastradh: Let me try that.
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2017-01-23T02:35:34Z koz_: Erk,more errors found. I'll fix those, see if it fixes my problem transitively. Thanks for your help though!
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2017-01-23T02:47:10Z koz_: Riastradh: Yep, transitively fixed. However, it seems that Gambit can't actually go above 25% CPU load. Does it not have native threads or something?
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2017-01-23T02:51:23Z Riastradh: koz_: Dunno.  Wouldn't surprise me if it doesn't.
2017-01-23T02:52:06Z koz_: Riastradh: Argh. Well, time to find out, I guess.
2017-01-23T02:52:20Z koz_: Do any Schemes other than Cyclone have native threads that you know of?
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2017-01-23T02:59:43Z koz_: (I would use Cyclone, but a lack of thread-join! in it makes what I wanna do rather hard)
2017-01-23T03:00:25Z Riastradh: koz_: Can't vouch for any of the thread systems, but it seems Gauche, Guile, and Chez all support native threads.  Someone recently added them to MIT Scheme too, but it hasn't gone out in a release yet and I'm pretty sure it's not really ready.
2017-01-23T03:00:57Z Riastradh: koz_: thread-join is an unnecessary primitive -- you can always get the same effect with your own flag, mutex, and condvar.
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2017-01-23T03:02:42Z koz_: Riastradh: It's unnecessary, yes, but it's very convenient. I suppose I can just hack one up myself, though.
2017-01-23T03:02:50Z koz_: I'll look into Gauche.
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2017-01-23T03:17:52Z koz_: Also, could someone explain what purpose boxes serve? I'm a bit unclear why they need to exist.
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2017-01-23T03:18:51Z pjb: koz_: they're useful to implement efficiently (modulo their intrinsic compromize) tagged types on an untagged processor.
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2017-01-23T03:20:42Z koz_: pjb: Ah, I see.
2017-01-23T03:20:44Z pjb: koz_: take for example fixnums vs. floating point numbers.   For fixnums, it's easy enough to split a 64-bit word into a 2-bit tag and a 62-bit value.  But for floating point numbers, all the bits in an IEEE 754 64-bit integer are useful, and we cannot add a tag inside the 64-bit word used by the floating point number.
2017-01-23T03:21:20Z pjb: koz_: hence the notion of boxing: we pass a little structure with a tag for the floating point, and the full 64-bit IEEE 754 floating point.
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2017-01-23T03:21:41Z pjb: Of course, the problem with boxes is that to compute you need to unbox them, and then you need to box back the results to return them.
2017-01-23T03:22:06Z koz_: pjb: This isn't a problem unique to Scheme though.
2017-01-23T03:22:27Z koz_: But yeah, I get the point of boxes (boxen?) now, thanks.
2017-01-23T03:22:32Z pjb: That said, there are attempts to use IEEE 754 NAN to encode tags for fixnums and other small values so that you would have floating points by default, and NAN would encode the other small values.
2017-01-23T03:23:13Z pjb: Indeed, it's no more a problem unique to lisp; ruby, python, javascript, etc, use typed values.
2017-01-23T03:23:30Z koz_: pjb: Yeah, I've heard about that (ab)use of NAN.
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2017-01-23T04:31:06Z koz_: Riastradh: Are you sure that Gauche has native threads? I can't get it to break 33% CPU load.
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2017-01-23T04:39:27Z koz_: I suspect I'm not using SRFI-18 correctly for what I want to do.
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2017-01-23T04:41:24Z koz_: Riastradh: Never mind - I *was* using SRFI-18 incorrectly.
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2017-01-23T04:44:03Z vtomole: Does racket have R4RS?
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2017-01-23T05:49:18Z rjungemann: koz_ Racket also has parallelism with futures and places but I don't think it's exposed through SRFI 18
2017-01-23T05:50:09Z rjungemann: Gambit doesn't have native threading
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2017-01-23T05:52:30Z rjungemann: Depending on your workload, you may look into using processes and some sort of IPC or MQ or something
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2017-01-23T05:58:49Z koz_: rjungemann: I just switched to Gauche.
2017-01-23T05:59:18Z koz_: Also, the nice person behind Cyclone has seen my bug reports, so I might just be able to use Cyclone instead.
2017-01-23T05:59:27Z rjungemann: Cool!
2017-01-23T05:59:28Z koz_: (or I can just write my own thread-join!, sigh)
2017-01-23T05:59:41Z koz_: Although Cyclone beats Gauche even without parallelism.
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2017-01-23T06:00:11Z koz_: (Gauche saturating my cores takes a bit more than 2 minutes, Cyclone on one core takes a bit less than 2 minutes)
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2017-01-23T08:18:31Z jonaslund: koz_: do you really NEED multithreading ?
2017-01-23T08:19:07Z koz_: jonaslund: For embarassingly-parallel work, which I will have a lot of? Yes, I do.
2017-01-23T08:19:24Z jonaslund: what kind ?
2017-01-23T08:19:50Z koz_: jonaslund: I have a bunch of data (about 600 instances) all of which can be processed in parallel.
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2017-01-23T08:20:18Z jonaslund: would it be horrible to put them in separate processes ?
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2017-01-23T08:20:42Z koz_: jonaslund: I guess I could.
2017-01-23T08:21:03Z koz_: I'm just after parallelism - it doesn't have to be via multithreading.
2017-01-23T08:21:52Z wasamasa: it's time to GNU parallel
2017-01-23T08:21:57Z jonaslund: multithreaded GC's are kind of a pita to get right (especially if you want to compact memory)
2017-01-23T08:22:28Z koz_: wasamasa: Or xargs, I guess.
2017-01-23T08:22:51Z wasamasa: oh, sure
2017-01-23T08:22:54Z wasamasa: can't say I've used either
2017-01-23T08:23:11Z koz_: I've used both, but it was mostly for processing large numbers of files with ffmpeg or something.
2017-01-23T08:25:48Z jonaslund: koz_: In general if you want performance there's problems that can easily be moved to other processes (multi user, web,etc) and heavily numeric ones that should live on a GPU anyhow. Sure there are others but surprisingly many can be of the first 2 kinds imho
2017-01-23T08:26:16Z koz_: jonaslund: Yeah, I see your point. I'll likely just put each data instance in a different process.
2017-01-23T08:27:04Z koz_: (my stuff isn't heavily numeric)
2017-01-23T08:27:19Z koz_: (it's basically *not* numeric, actually)
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2017-01-23T08:28:53Z jonaslund: (that said... many modern "nosql" databases totally missed the oppurtunity for inmemory processing and when you start down that route same-process instances becomes interesting)
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2017-01-23T08:29:28Z koz_: jonaslund: On that subject - have you seen Andy Pavlo's CMU graduate course on databases?
2017-01-23T08:29:43Z koz_: It's all about in-memory stuff, and it's actually really interesting.
2017-01-23T08:29:44Z jonaslund: nope
2017-01-23T08:30:00Z koz_: jonaslund: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLSE8ODhjZXjbisIGOepfnlbfxeH7TW-8O
2017-01-23T08:30:23Z koz_: (plus, Andy Pavlo is really quite engaging)
2017-01-23T08:31:02Z koz_: The readings and other materials are also available online: http://15721.courses.cs.cmu.edu/spring2016/schedule.html
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2017-01-23T08:37:30Z jonaslund: koz_: awesome stuff!!
2017-01-23T08:37:58Z koz_: jonaslund: Thanks - I really learned a lot from it, it's very interesting.
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2017-01-23T17:16:51Z rjungemann: Ah thanks for the heads up! I'll try limiting what I'm doing to JSON-serializable objects, and copying the string from infuse C
2017-01-23T17:17:13Z rjungemann: s/infuse/inside
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2017-01-23T19:14:13Z qu1j0t3: koz_: Quite a nice bibliography there, thanks
2017-01-23T19:18:59Z koz_: qu1j0t3: Glad you like it!
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2017-01-23T20:04:20Z rjungemann: Probably you've already looked into this koz_, but have you thought about using multiple processes and sharing a memory-mapped file between them?
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2017-01-23T20:10:35Z rjungemann: A matrix of tens of gigabytes can be easily represented by one and operated on by multiple subprocess simultaneously
2017-01-23T20:11:42Z rjungemann: It's an approach Facebook uses in their Hack VM and Flow static analyzer (they're both written in OCaml but the approach would carry over)
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2017-01-23T20:17:27Z koz_: rjungemann: Yeah, jonaslund suggested it too, and I'm seeing its merits.
2017-01-23T20:18:03Z koz_: I don't think I'll even need memory-mapping here - each datum I have to process is generated separately, so I could just do one process per datum and not worry.
2017-01-23T20:19:58Z rjungemann: How big is each datum? If they're really tiny I would spin up separate processes and use a socket, FIFO, or MQ to pipe the data between them. If they're big chunks, probably fine to spin up a process per
2017-01-23T20:21:24Z koz_: rjungemann: The data themselves aren't big, but there's a lot of intermediate stuff that needs to be generated in-memory for each one to produre the necessary results.
2017-01-23T20:21:45Z rjungemann: Got it, makes sense
2017-01-23T20:22:07Z koz_: But the last few days have been a fun foray into Scheme implementations and writing portable code.
2017-01-23T20:22:26Z koz_: Biggest lesson learned: Use SRFIs, always and forever.
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2017-01-24T01:06:16Z koz_: Argh Cyclone.
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2017-01-24T05:28:19Z koz_: Does anyone know a good (Neo)vim Scheme mode? The built-in one has severe trouble both indenting and highlighting several important things.
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2017-01-24T06:43:56Z ecraven: koz_: I don't use vim, but it probably isn't too hard to add support for those additional "things"
2017-01-24T06:44:03Z ecraven: at least it isn't in emacs
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2017-01-24T07:04:12Z koz_: ecraven: Probably not, but if someone's already done it, I'd rather not badly reinvent the wheel.
2017-01-24T07:04:23Z koz_: Also, thanks for your Scheme benchmarks - I'm actually running them right now!
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2017-01-24T08:23:32Z aeth: koz_: If you have to start from something, start from a Common Lisp (or even Emacs Lisp!) mode.
2017-01-24T08:23:53Z aeth: At least the indentation will be almost entirely right.
2017-01-24T08:24:10Z koz_: aeth: It doesn't break on much - only cond-expand and R7RS block comments.
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2017-01-24T08:24:29Z aeth: ah
2017-01-24T08:25:21Z koz_: I might actually report those as issues.
2017-01-24T08:25:29Z koz_: (since R7RS isn't exactly new anymore)
2017-01-24T08:25:40Z koz_: s/R7RS/R7RS-small/
2017-01-24T08:25:44Z aeth: if it already exists and just doesn't support r7rs, then, yeah those seem like bugs
2017-01-24T08:27:50Z koz_: Well, I've already been reporting a bunch of issues on Cyclone Scheme, why not my editor too? :P
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2017-01-24T14:52:27Z ManDay: http://www.r6rs.org/final/html/r6rs/r6rs-Z-H-14.html#node_sec_11.7.3.1 How come I get an error about "div" being undefined in guile?
2017-01-24T14:54:36Z ManDay: same for mod
2017-01-24T14:56:11Z dpk: div and mod aren't scheme procedures
2017-01-24T14:56:25Z dpk: they're there in the spec to illustrate the correct behaviour of the procedures
2017-01-24T14:56:37Z dpk: i think
2017-01-24T14:56:55Z ManDay: i don't get it. they are listed as being provided with the others and even explicitly in guile docs https://www.gnu.org/software/guile/manual/html_node/rnrs-base.html
2017-01-24T14:57:10Z dpk: oh, so they are
2017-01-24T14:57:19Z dpk: did you include the (rnrs base (6)) library?
2017-01-24T14:57:32Z ManDay: they are listed in 11.7.4.3 Arithmetic operations
2017-01-24T14:57:50Z dpk: yes, sorry, but not in the section you linked to
2017-01-24T14:57:55Z ManDay: dpk: all the other rnrs base functions are there (like car, / + list etc)
2017-01-24T14:58:07Z dpk: you need to include the library
2017-01-24T14:59:00Z ManDay: why do I need to include it for div and mod but not for + and - and all the other functions that are listed in the spec as base library functions?
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2017-01-24T15:06:18Z ManDay: ok i guess that's just a choice guile made
2017-01-24T15:06:25Z ManDay: confusing for a newcomer at least
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2017-01-24T15:41:46Z pesterhazy: hey! I'm working on SICP using racket. It's a ton of fun. But I'm having trouble debugging issues.
2017-01-24T15:42:25Z pesterhazy: Using emacs+geiser, the backtraces I get are not very informative.
2017-01-24T15:42:48Z pesterhazy: What's a good way to debug racket programs?
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2017-01-24T15:44:07Z gwatt: Does racket have "trace" ?
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2017-01-24T15:46:51Z pesterhazy: hm not sure how to check
2017-01-24T15:47:21Z pesterhazy: https://docs.racket-lang.org/reference/debugging.html
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2017-01-24T15:49:36Z gwatt: Looks like yes. You can trace any procedures you care about. Every time you call a procedure it should print out the name + params, and every time a traced procedure returns it should print the return value(s)
2017-01-24T15:51:08Z pesterhazy: that's neat
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2017-01-24T15:52:43Z pesterhazy: I'm going to try that for a bit and see if helps
2017-01-24T15:53:00Z pesterhazy: I guess it requires me to use `#lang racket` rather than `#lang sicp`
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2017-01-24T17:16:30Z ManDay: I wonder whether maybe I'm doing something unelegantly: I do have a dual recursion (depth-first traversal of a tree, one recursion vertically the other horizontally) and each of the two recursion has to return multiple values which are then shuffled and modified by the recursion further up and so on. But the "multiple values" form does not seem have anything to extract a single value. Therefore, I'm just
2017-01-24T17:16:32Z ManDay: using list and list-ref to extract the value. Is that unusual or okay?
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2017-01-24T17:46:18Z lloda`: you can use 'receive' from srfi-8 to extract multiple values, there's also 'let-values' and the 'call-with-values'.
2017-01-24T17:47:37Z lloda`: if you use lists I think most people would recommend using match rather than list-ref as a matter of style
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2017-01-24T17:48:54Z ManDay: thanks lloda` I'll have a look at match
2017-01-24T17:49:35Z ManDay: I wonder about how Guile's scheme is actually such that it's invisble unless used.
2017-01-24T17:50:15Z ManDay: Doesn't a define-syntax remain in effect and possibly affects the interpretation of other forms?
2017-01-24T17:50:53Z ManDay: So if there is a (define-syntax) for something like (x y z)  and I define a form (define x (lambda (y z) ...)) doesn't the syntax take precedence?
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2017-01-24T17:57:31Z ManDay: oh sorry, should be in #guile
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2017-01-24T23:06:49Z rjungemann: I have a snow-chibi question
2017-01-24T23:07:48Z rjungemann: Using the "chibi crypto sha2" project as a template, I have a very very simple library with some C FFI code. I can run `chibi-ffi chibi/inu/osc.stub` and `cc -fPIC -shared chibi/inu/osc.c -lchibi-scheme -o chibi/inu/osc.a` and it all works, but
2017-01-24T23:08:24Z akkad: porting some CL over to scheme, and was looking at chicken. need to do some json parsing, gzip reading, object store.
2017-01-24T23:09:08Z rjungemann: Running `chibi-scheme run-tests.scm` complains that "ERROR: couldn't find include: "chibi/inu/osc.dylib". Is there a `snow-chibi` command or something that I should be running that would package things in the expected way? Was not able to find this in the docs.
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2017-01-24T23:18:28Z wasamasa: akkad: hm, didn't you ask about those way back on #chicken
2017-01-24T23:19:04Z wasamasa: akkad: I'd use medea for json, call with input from pipe and the gzip util for gzip reading and sqlite for storing objects
2017-01-24T23:19:06Z akkad: wasamasa: yeah, enotime. trying to make some time.
2017-01-24T23:19:14Z wasamasa: akkad: or maybe try one of those fancy nosql eggs
2017-01-24T23:19:18Z akkad: problem was scheme is not cl
2017-01-24T23:19:23Z wasamasa: well, duh
2017-01-24T23:19:27Z wasamasa: can't help you with that
2017-01-24T23:19:47Z akkad: well "how to do x on y implementation" intersectionality
2017-01-24T23:19:51Z koz_: rjungemann: You compile a .a, but you need a .dylib instead.
2017-01-24T23:20:04Z koz_: This is what it's unhappy about.
2017-01-24T23:20:32Z rjungemann: Obviously yes
2017-01-24T23:20:35Z rjungemann: That's not really my question
2017-01-24T23:20:42Z rjungemann: How does snow-chibi do this automatically?
2017-01-24T23:20:50Z rjungemann: How do I test this in the snow-chibi way?
2017-01-24T23:21:32Z akkad: wasamasa: you are right. thanks for reminding me. already did a demo of this in rkt and was not portable.
2017-01-24T23:21:46Z rjungemann: I posted the command to generate the .a file just to show that everything works (it's the command shown in the manual)
2017-01-24T23:21:55Z wasamasa: akkad: I don't get the need for portability either
2017-01-24T23:22:12Z wasamasa: akkad: this "I'll use it on another implementation" scenario just reads like a major headache to me
2017-01-24T23:23:17Z akkad: true
2017-01-24T23:23:38Z akkad: wasamasa: when you find you've chosen the wrong implementation for your needs.
2017-01-24T23:23:44Z rjungemann: The "chibi crypto sha2" library for example does not package the shared library. So it gets built when the user uses snow-chibi to install it
2017-01-24T23:24:00Z wasamasa: akkad: well, I haven't :P
2017-01-24T23:24:21Z koz_: rjungemann: Not sure then. I'd ask foof`.
2017-01-24T23:24:28Z akkad: wasamasa: :P
2017-01-24T23:24:30Z rjungemann: akkad: use `cond-expand` to provide code for specific implementations when you need implementation-specific code
2017-01-24T23:24:40Z wasamasa: akkad: CHICKEN got so much more than the alternatives that I don't see how switching would benefit me
2017-01-24T23:25:01Z akkad: ok. will try it again. last time was getting segfaults on reading 12MB of json with chicken
2017-01-24T23:25:24Z wasamasa: the only one I'd realistically consider is racket, but the whole thing isn't made for doing unixy stuff
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2017-01-24T23:28:06Z akkad: kk
2017-01-24T23:30:40Z wasamasa: and with CL, doesn't everyone just use SBCL, maybe CCL if they're on windows?
2017-01-24T23:31:39Z akkad: poor people do. :P
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2017-01-24T23:32:01Z akkad: ccl/sbcl/allegro/lw are what we use here.
2017-01-24T23:32:46Z wasamasa: the only way I could justify shelling out cash is if it were for work and I'm already doing clojure at work, so...
2017-01-24T23:33:57Z akkad: ditto
2017-01-24T23:34:45Z akkad: $$ means support
2017-01-24T23:35:38Z akkad: wasamasa: thanks for the info.
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2017-01-25T00:37:09Z rjungemann: Figured out all my library issues. I'll write a blog post on it at some point
2017-01-25T00:37:50Z koz_: rjungemann: What was the issue, tl;dr?
2017-01-25T00:38:10Z koz_: Sorry, let me rephrase: What's the tl;dr version of the issue?
2017-01-25T00:38:33Z rjungemann: So snow-chibi will build the source file from the stub, and build the shared library for you. For testing purposes you need to:
2017-01-25T00:39:05Z rjungemann: Either `cc -fPIC -dynamiclib chibi/inu/osc.c -lchibi-scheme -o chibi/inu/osc.dylib` and then `chibi-scheme run-tests.scm`, or:
2017-01-25T00:39:52Z rjungemann: `snow-chibi --always-no package chibi/inu/osc.sld && snow-chibi --always-no install chibi-inu-osc.tgz && snow-chibi --always-no package chibi/inu/osc-test.sld && snow-chibi --always-no install chibi-inu-osc-test.tgz` and then `chibi-scheme run-tests.scm`
2017-01-25T00:40:23Z koz_: rjungemann: Ah, I see. Yeah, that's probably something that should be documented.
2017-01-25T00:40:54Z rjungemann: I then ran into an issue where it will happily package an existing shared library and generated C file if one exists, instead of building it. So be cautious to remove these files before packaging otherwise they won't get regenerated when the user installs it
2017-01-25T00:41:28Z rjungemann: This is probably intended behavior (like if the dev wants to pre-build the shared libraries) but I wasn't expecting it
2017-01-25T00:41:53Z rjungemann: Oh a fun thing you might like koz_
2017-01-25T00:42:30Z rjungemann: I'm dabbling with CSP between multiple chibi VMs in the same process (in different threads)
2017-01-25T00:42:30Z rjungemann: https://github.com/rjungemann/chibi-scheme/pull/1
2017-01-25T00:43:00Z koz_: rjungemann: That's really involved. What do you need *that* for?
2017-01-25T00:43:14Z rjungemann: It's messy right now but it sorta works. One thing I need to do is serialize the data in the queues, copy the memory, and then deserialize it in the second VM
2017-01-25T00:43:37Z rjungemann: Haha your talk of threading piqued my interest
2017-01-25T00:43:53Z koz_: rjungemann: I see. Well, glad I'm so inspiring then.
2017-01-25T00:43:56Z rjungemann: Chibi VMs are very tiny so it's no problem to have a bunch of em running
2017-01-25T00:44:06Z koz_: In my case, I've just been hitting conformance issues in Cyclone.
2017-01-25T00:44:09Z koz_: Over and over and over.
2017-01-25T00:44:20Z koz_: In fact, I just found another one (to do with equal? on bytevectors).
2017-01-25T00:44:28Z rjungemann: Eep
2017-01-25T00:44:41Z rjungemann: Well you're providing Justin with some good user testing at least
2017-01-25T00:44:49Z koz_: I've now written my codebase to be portable between Chibi and Cyclone just for that.
2017-01-25T00:45:04Z koz_: (if I get weird errors, I run it through Chibi to see if it's me first)
2017-01-25T00:45:26Z rjungemann: That's really cool
2017-01-25T00:45:28Z koz_: Hopefully, once I'm not being deadline-crushed, I can actually start making PRs to fix some of this stuff.
2017-01-25T00:46:12Z rjungemann: That will be really appreciated, what these implementations need is more users battle-testing em
2017-01-25T00:46:58Z rjungemann: I'm really invested in chibi, I'm going to try and find ways of getting more involved. I'll start with adding some libraries to snow-fort
2017-01-25T00:47:17Z rjungemann: Cyclone is VERY cool though too
2017-01-25T00:49:09Z koz_: rjungemann: Yeah, Cyclone is extremely cool, and I wanna help it to iron out its conformance issues.
2017-01-25T00:49:48Z rjungemann: My next project after this little OSC library (I dream of an Overtone-like music system in Scheme... but that's miles off) is an mmap-based shared memory library like OCaml's Bigstring or Bigarray. Should be pretty easy actually
2017-01-25T00:51:02Z koz_: rjungemann: I'd be interested in seeing that.
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2017-01-25T04:54:45Z koz_: Is there an SRFI for destructuring of some kind? I find a lot of times, I'm having to do annoying lets for taking apart a structure.
2017-01-25T04:54:55Z koz_: (sorry, record, although lists need that too sometimes)
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2017-01-25T05:36:34Z rjungemann: You could definitely make a macro to do it, depending on what you want
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2017-01-25T06:36:35Z koz_: rjungemann: Why do I *never* consider macros...
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2017-01-25T06:36:48Z koz_: Thanks, that's gonna be my first refactor.
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2017-01-25T07:28:24Z rjungemann: syntax-rules is pretty cool but I prefer the *-macro-transformer macros, they are as powerful as Common Lisp macros, and are supported by at least chibi, cyclone, and chicken
2017-01-25T07:28:44Z rjungemann: Between them and call/cc there pretty much isn't a language feature you can't implement
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2017-01-25T09:37:11Z aries_liuxueyang: Hello. Anyone uses Emacs and lispy plugin: https://github.com/abo-abo/lispy ?
2017-01-25T09:37:47Z aries_liuxueyang: In this plugin, lispy-forward is bind to `]`, which conflicts  in racket because `[` is a kind of brace allowed. Is there another way to solve this except customize that function's binding?
2017-01-25T09:39:36Z aries_liuxueyang: or I have to insert that  with `c-q [` or `c-q ]` ?
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2017-01-25T09:41:01Z aries_liuxueyang: Sorry, Problem solved. It's documented here: http://oremacs.com/lispy/#lispy-parens
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2017-01-25T10:12:49Z ManDay: Is there some technique of defining a way how the return value of a procedure should be pretty printed in REPL?
2017-01-25T10:20:10Z rjungemann: I think it's implementation-specific
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2017-01-25T13:18:37Z ManDay: Is there a preferred idiom instead of (let* ([x ...] [x (if (b? x) (f x) x)]) ...) ?
2017-01-25T13:18:56Z ManDay: feels awkward
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2017-01-25T13:59:40Z jackdaniel: (let* ([x (ensure-x …)]) …) ; maybe?
2017-01-25T13:59:53Z jackdaniel: s/ensure-x/ensure-b/
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2017-01-25T14:12:46Z ManDay: yeah better ill do that
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2017-01-25T14:54:19Z ManDay: I think there is something I haven't quite understoood, heh
2017-01-25T14:54:34Z ManDay: How is it possible that the following code does NOT output "x is 1":
2017-01-25T14:54:36Z ManDay: (let ([x ((lambda (x) (= x 1) "x is 1" (= x 1)) 1)]) x)
2017-01-25T14:55:09Z ManDay: erm, well
2017-01-25T14:55:18Z ManDay: there is no if, to answer my own question
2017-01-25T14:55:26Z gwatt: glad we could help
2017-01-25T14:55:34Z ManDay: hah, gosh sometimes I'm really silly
2017-01-25T14:55:43Z ManDay: thanks gwatt ^^
2017-01-25T14:56:06Z gwatt: Np, I can provide that kind of help all day long
2017-01-25T14:56:41Z ManDay: :-D
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2017-01-25T18:42:16Z koz_: rjungemann: Are those *-macro-transformer things part of the standard? If not, I'd rather not use them unless I had to.
2017-01-25T18:45:41Z rjungemann: No
2017-01-25T18:48:53Z rjungemann: See if syntax-rules will do what you want (it's R7RS, but limited compared to other macro systems)
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2017-01-25T18:57:50Z ManDay: Ok stupid beginner question probably, but how would I express the following best in scheme:  a = f(); if (a.x) { b = g(); if (b.x) { c = h(); if (c.x) { return #f; } } } } return #t; ?
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2017-01-25T18:58:27Z ManDay: Hm, I guess with an and. Why do answers always become evident when the question is already asked...
2017-01-25T18:58:58Z gnomon: ManDay, the process of formulating the question focuses the mind in a way that often makes the answer obvious!  cf. "teddy bear debugging"
2017-01-25T18:59:31Z gnomon: ManDay, nothing to be annoyed about, it's a shared experience and a useful thing to notice.
2017-01-25T19:04:38Z koz_: ManDay: Yeah, it happens to me all the time. Don't worry - it gets easier. :)
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2017-01-25T19:18:07Z ManDay: Well I guess that's another thanks gwatt !
2017-01-25T19:18:10Z ManDay: ;-D
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2017-01-25T19:24:03Z gnomon: You're welcome Bront
2017-01-25T19:25:29Z ManDay: oh no I actually meant gwatt ;)
2017-01-25T19:25:48Z ManDay: but thanks to you too, learnt a new thing about teddy bear debugging
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2017-01-25T19:30:49Z ManDay: I'm afraid this is no teddy bear question, because I can't combine this with a let.
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2017-01-25T19:36:38Z ManDay: any idea?
2017-01-25T19:39:20Z gwatt: ManDay: is this still the a=f(); if (a.x) b = g() .... question?
2017-01-25T19:40:08Z ManDay: gwatt: yeah. thought it actually is b(a) and c(b,a). i neglected that in the original question which made it easier (teddy bear like, so to say)
2017-01-25T19:40:25Z ManDay: maybe there is a way with multiple nested (let) and (and) - I'm trying that
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2017-01-25T19:43:45Z gwatt: rewriting your thing to be more scheme rather than c: (not (every x (list f g h)))
2017-01-25T19:44:46Z gwatt: but I guess a.x and b.x might be different..
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2017-01-25T22:56:26Z rjungemann: The clearest tutorial for syntax rules that I've found http://www.willdonnelly.net/blog/scheme-syntax-rules/
2017-01-25T22:57:06Z wasamasa: indeed
2017-01-25T22:57:08Z rjungemann: I still hope a low-level macro system eventually makes it into R7RS-large...
2017-01-25T22:57:17Z rjungemann: I don't really care which one
2017-01-25T22:58:05Z rjungemann: Being able to selectively break hygiene, and being able to leverage the entire power of the Scheme language to construct macros, is profoundly liberating
2017-01-25T22:58:48Z rjungemann: One thing I wondered which came up in this article:
2017-01-25T22:58:57Z rjungemann: The code:
2017-01-25T22:58:57Z rjungemann: (define-syntax macro
2017-01-25T22:58:57Z rjungemann:   <syntax transformer>)
2017-01-25T22:59:25Z rjungemann: Is it defined what the structure of "<syntax transformer>" looks like? I suppose it's implementation-dependent
2017-01-25T23:00:53Z rjungemann: Like, someone would not be able to define their own syntax transformer in R7RS?
2017-01-25T23:02:06Z wasamasa: it's just a placeholder for code creating it
2017-01-25T23:02:14Z wasamasa: like, something involving syntax-rules
2017-01-25T23:03:11Z rjungemann: Yeah. It's something that's been on my mind. I was trying to make heads or tails of chibi's definition for er-macro-transformer which IIRC in chibi syntax transformers are just regular functions called at macro time
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2017-01-25T23:05:20Z wasamasa: mhh
2017-01-25T23:05:38Z wasamasa: I've read somewhere that the code inside syntax-rules is a little language on its own
2017-01-25T23:05:40Z rjungemann: Yeah, for example, https://github.com/ashinn/chibi-scheme/blob/master/lib/init-7.scm#L110
2017-01-25T23:05:46Z wasamasa: which looks like scheme, but isn't quite scheme
2017-01-25T23:06:04Z wasamasa: whereas code in a procedural macro behaves just like normal code that generates a list
2017-01-25T23:06:42Z rjungemann: I think in chibi's case there's probably an even-lower-level proto-macro system that all of the lower-level macros and syntax-rules are defined in
2017-01-25T23:07:36Z rjungemann: All of chibi's syntax transformers are defined as functions which take a function as an argument, and return a function with `expr use-env mac-env` as its arguments
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2017-01-25T23:57:36Z gwatt: You  can always run a syntax-rules expression through the macro expander to see what it does
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2017-01-26T02:30:09Z rjungemann: No, what I mean is, that some implementations allow for other syntax transformers to be passed into define-syntax. Some examples are sc-macro-transformer, er-macro-transformer, and `(lambda (x) (syntax-case x () ...))`
2017-01-26T02:31:09Z rjungemann: Anyway the answer probably is as I expected, that it's implementation-dependent
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2017-01-26T02:32:31Z rjungemann: An example of what I mean: https://gist.github.com/rjungemann/04838aa6aaf628c2bfdaf25146de52bf#file-main-scm-L9
2017-01-26T02:35:33Z gwatt: I'm not familiar with er-macro-transformer
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2017-01-26T02:37:23Z rjungemann: There's a suite of "low-level macro systems" that some schemes have, the idea is that they work more similarly to `defmacro` in Common Lisp, where you can use quasiquotation to construct the code the macro generates... but with additional ways of handling hygiene. Whereas in Common Lisp, everything is unhygienic by default and you can use `gensym` to add
2017-01-26T02:37:23Z rjungemann: hygiene
2017-01-26T02:38:58Z rjungemann: Why is breaking hygiene sometimes important? If you look at the gist I posted, my `-<>` macro allows the code which uses the macro to use `<>` as a placeholder for the result of the previous expression. More generally, breaking hygiene allows you to have implicit variables and functions that the calling code can use
2017-01-26T02:39:06Z rjungemann: I'm sure there's other reasons also
2017-01-26T02:39:17Z gwatt: I think even the use of gensym doesn't add hygiene to CL.
2017-01-26T02:40:01Z rjungemann: You might be right, I'm less familiar with CL. Afaik that's an approach to attempt to solve the problem
2017-01-26T02:40:23Z gwatt: It works usually.
2017-01-26T02:41:00Z gwatt: But if the macro definition references external identifiers you still can have problems
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2017-01-26T02:48:36Z rjungemann: On a completely unrelated note, I discovered today that a library which uses chibi-ffi has complete access to all of chibi's C functions, meaning new VMs can be spawned from library code... I have some ideas of fun things to do with this
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2017-01-26T02:50:35Z gwatt: I think chez is similar.
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2017-01-26T02:53:56Z akkad: how does one interface with the world on something like chez? e.g. parse json, unzip stuff, talk to databases?
2017-01-26T02:54:37Z gwatt: Erm, the same way one interfaces with the world on any other scheme?
2017-01-26T02:55:02Z akkad: package system? eggs?
2017-01-26T02:55:13Z gwatt: If you're asking for specific libraries, https://pizzahack.eu/fossil/thunderchez/index is pretty cool
2017-01-26T02:55:21Z akkad: thanks
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2017-01-26T02:55:40Z gwatt: The same author also has a gui library
2017-01-26T02:56:23Z gwatt: But afaik, there's no official package manager or distributable library format.
2017-01-26T02:57:18Z akkad: k
2017-01-26T02:59:12Z koz_: rjungemann: Chibi is just amazing.
2017-01-26T03:01:20Z koz_: I browsed some examples of Chibi-C FFI code while busing to uni today, and it's pretty darned cool.
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2017-01-26T03:11:49Z rjungemann: Turns out I don't have to fork chibi to dabble with this CSP nonsense, I can just do it from a library
2017-01-26T03:15:12Z koz_: rjungemann: Chibi continues to be awesome.
2017-01-26T03:15:25Z koz_: I also found the source of my performance issues - I accidentally quadratic.
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2017-01-26T03:46:00Z koz_: rjungemann: Another day, another Cyclone bug. :P
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2017-01-26T03:46:08Z koz_: (although this one is more lack of documentation than anything)
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2017-01-26T03:51:00Z rjungemann: Haha you've been busy
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2017-01-26T04:08:07Z koz_: rjungemann: Well, I'm deadline-crunched, so I need this code soon, and every time I hit an issue, I always co-run with Chibi to make sure it's not me.
2017-01-26T04:08:17Z koz_: (notably, it's still frequently me)
2017-01-26T04:10:32Z koz_: Also, for my current work, Chibi is ~3 times slower than Cyclone on the same workload. It's a notable difference, but not as big as I expected.
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2017-01-26T05:21:56Z koz_: Also, I wish Chibi had a profiler.
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2017-01-26T05:49:24Z koz_: Lol, I'm averaging one issue/day or so now.
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2017-01-26T06:13:09Z rjungemann: Hehe
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2017-01-26T06:15:33Z rjungemann: My CSP code almost works... You call csp-spawn and pass a callback, and there's a pair of channels you can use to pass messages between the parent and child. Now I'm running into an issue where the child prematurely quits. I realized that I'm trying to pass the lambda from one VM to another which is probably not okay (despite "retaining" the variable)
2017-01-26T06:16:15Z rjungemann: I'm hoping I can find a way to not have to have child code in a separate file but I suppose it's not a dealbreaker
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2017-01-26T06:24:01Z rjungemann: Ooh I know how to fix it
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2017-01-26T06:34:24Z koz_: rjungemann: Today, I over-fulfilled my issue quota and found another weirdness.
2017-01-26T06:34:35Z koz_: Having Chibi as a baseline is a *lifesaver* right now.
2017-01-26T06:34:46Z rjungemann: Hahaha
2017-01-26T06:35:23Z rjungemann: You'll have to write a blog post or something at some point
2017-01-26T06:35:38Z koz_: rjungemann: Probably will, at some point.
2017-01-26T06:37:59Z koz_: At this rate, I'm well on-track to becoming a co-maintainer of Cyclone...
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2017-01-26T09:40:38Z rjungemann: Although it's still very much a work in progress, I thought you might get a kick out of my exploration of CSP in Chibi koz_ https://github.com/rjungemann/chibi-inu-csp
2017-01-26T09:48:20Z rjungemann: I solved my lambda serialization problem by using a macro to quote the lambda, then it can be serialized with `write`, unboxed to a C string, then boxed back up and evaled in another VM. Of course it does not close over outer variables, but those variables wouldn't exist in the other VM anyway
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2017-01-26T09:49:01Z jonaslund: rjungemann: hmm how are these channels compared to a mailbox system ?
2017-01-26T09:50:33Z rjungemann: These are more akin to Go channels as opposed to actors. The difference being queue-like semantics vs. message passing
2017-01-26T09:51:22Z rjungemann: Those are two patterns I'm familiar with, I am less familiar with mailbox semantics but I assume they are somewhat analogous to a message-passing system
2017-01-26T09:52:06Z jonaslund: yeah i was thinking of actors
2017-01-26T09:52:30Z rjungemann: There is room for experimenting with different semantics for the communication though. I may try something more akin to actors too
2017-01-26T09:53:27Z jonaslund: I think erlang got it almost spot-on
2017-01-26T09:55:28Z rjungemann: The other idea I had (I mention it in the README) is that it would not be too hard to use `fork` and FIFOs to extend this to work with child VMs in other processes, so it would be easy to mix and match threads and processes. Of course an actor-like solution would be possible in this way too
2017-01-26T09:56:03Z rjungemann: I'll look more into actors
2017-01-26T09:57:01Z rjungemann: After playing with Go for a little bit and also Clojure with core.async, CSP was just more straightforward for me to try and implement
2017-01-26T09:57:12Z jonaslund: when you create a new process in erlang you get a pid object, that pid can be sent in a message to other processes regardless of location (ie possibly on another machine)
2017-01-26T09:57:46Z rjungemann: Yeah that transparency is appealing
2017-01-26T09:58:17Z jonaslund: and since stuff is immutable the impleentation can choose between copying over the wire or sharing data between threads locally
2017-01-26T09:59:15Z jonaslund: that's why the in-memory mnesia database is appealing... you really just look at the live database data when doing a query
2017-01-26T09:59:34Z jonaslund: (if the data exists on the same node)
2017-01-26T10:00:04Z rjungemann: Ah this is cool. I really have not spent much time with Erlang at all
2017-01-26T10:00:43Z jonaslund: haven't used it too much myself but i've had to read up on it since my brother has been using it since atleast the early 90s at Ericsson (possibly 80s even)
2017-01-26T10:05:33Z jonaslund: always badgering me to try it more but haven't really had time to more than scratch the surface myself really
2017-01-26T10:08:47Z rjungemann: It's always useful to see how other communities approach problems
2017-01-26T10:11:29Z rjungemann: In Ruby-land there's a great gem called "concurrent-ruby". It's a kitchen sink of concurrency primitives cribbed from other environments. Thread pools, promises, futures, atoms, channels, actors, etc. It's less useful for Ruby impls with a GIL, but it's a fun way to explore some of these ideas in an easy language
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2017-01-26T10:26:02Z jonaslund: I really should take the time to finish my little toy JIT
2017-01-26T10:26:33Z jonaslund: gotten the basics in (trampolines, recompiler hooks,etc)
2017-01-26T10:26:57Z jonaslund: but i realized that i was almost interpreting at the level i was doing it
2017-01-26T10:27:22Z jonaslund: so i've been pondering if i can make it work at a tad higher level PyPy
2017-01-26T10:27:30Z jonaslund: like pypy
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2017-01-26T10:28:38Z jonaslund: GIL's are nasty but implementing some stuff w/o them quickly becomes tedious
2017-01-26T10:28:55Z jonaslund: however would be nice to have some middle ground
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2017-01-26T10:33:29Z rjungemann: Truth be told, at least in Ruby, whenever IO is being done or stuff is being done in a C extension, it releases the GIL anyway, so you can get decent parallelism for some workloads
2017-01-26T10:35:03Z rjungemann: Making a JIT compiler sounds like a fun project!
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2017-01-26T11:20:34Z ManDay: Teddy Bear Question? Is it possible to nicely write  if(u){a=au;b=bu;}else if(v){a=av;b=bv}else{a=at,b=bt}  without using 6 ifs?
2017-01-26T11:21:00Z ManDay: (or, if there are "n" of a,b,... n ifs)
2017-01-26T11:21:33Z ManDay: 2*n
2017-01-26T11:23:13Z ecraven: (set! a (* a (or u v t ...)))
2017-01-26T11:23:42Z ecraven: depending on what you mean exactly by "if(u)" this might or might not work
2017-01-26T11:24:17Z ManDay: yeah, but i mean without side effects
2017-01-26T11:24:49Z ManDay: side effects always leave me that stale aftertaste
2017-01-26T11:25:27Z koz_: ManDay: cond?
2017-01-26T11:25:39Z ManDay: koz_: how is that different from the ifs?
2017-01-26T11:25:51Z koz_: You said 'without using 6 ifs'.
2017-01-26T11:25:57Z ManDay: ...
2017-01-26T11:25:58Z koz_: I've given you an answer that fits that bill.
2017-01-26T11:28:05Z ManDay: Hm I guess I could   (let* ([dummy (if u (list au bu) (if v (list av bv) (list at bt)))] [a (list-ref dummy 0)] [b (list-ref dummy 1)]) ...)
2017-01-26T11:28:26Z ManDay: but but there must be something better!
2017-01-26T11:29:12Z ManDay: is there perhaps a shortcut like some macro which exacts multiple variables from a list or a "multiple values" return?
2017-01-26T11:30:27Z ManDay: ah in my particular case I don't need to extract individual values so I can actually use values
2017-01-26T11:30:35Z ManDay: but in general I wonder no less
2017-01-26T11:31:59Z ManDay: and I found let-values :)
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2017-01-26T12:09:51Z ski: ManDay : is `au' `a' multiplied by `u' ?
2017-01-26T12:12:30Z ski:   (let ((dummy (or u v t))) (let ((a (* a dummy)) (b (* b dummy))) ...))  ; ?
2017-01-26T12:12:44Z ski: (no side-effects required, you can use `let' in place of `set!')
2017-01-26T12:13:27Z ManDay: no, au was just a dummy
2017-01-26T12:13:36Z ManDay: anyway i found a nice solution with call-with-values
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2017-01-26T12:14:50Z ManDay: i.e.   (call-with-values (lambda () (if u (values au bu) (if v (values av bv) (values at bt)))) (lambda (vals) ...))
2017-01-26T12:15:04Z ManDay: g2g
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2017-01-26T12:15:26Z ski: s/(vals)/(adummy bdummy)/
2017-01-26T12:15:53Z ManDay: yah
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2017-01-26T12:16:25Z ski: `let-values' might look slightly nicer
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2017-01-26T21:02:52Z koz_: rjungemann: If you had to profile Chibi code, how would you do it?
2017-01-26T21:03:03Z koz_: s/profile/find hot spots in/
2017-01-26T21:03:45Z jcowan: Profile the chibi interpreter itself with gprof, perhaps.
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2017-01-26T21:05:44Z koz_: jcowan: That's an interesting idea - would that actually show my procedures being called though?
2017-01-26T21:06:10Z jcowan: Mmm, probably not.
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2017-01-26T21:26:38Z rjungemann: Hm good question, there is probably a nice way to hook into function calls
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2017-01-26T21:57:25Z koz_: rjungemann: I figured you might know, since you've been delving into Chibi a lot.
2017-01-26T21:57:38Z koz_: It'd be really nice to have a profiler for it, but I suspect foof` is too busy to write one.
2017-01-26T21:58:15Z rjungemann: I can take a look in a little bit. I think if it isn't built in somewhere, that it should be possible to do it at the C level pretty easy and build your own custom Chibi
2017-01-26T21:59:18Z koz_: rjungemann: Thanks - it'd really help the code I've got right now. Correctness checks against Cyclone are hard when Chibi is 3-10 times slower and bugs only occur at large input sizes in my program.
2017-01-26T21:59:42Z jcowan: koz_: Are you depending on Chibi-specific libraries?
2017-01-26T21:59:57Z koz_: jcowan: No - at least not in anything I want to profile.
2017-01-26T22:00:48Z jcowan: You might port it to Larceny in R7RS mode, and then use its profile library.
2017-01-26T22:01:06Z jcowan: Of course, it might run too fast, so you may need to iterate the parts you want to profile.
2017-01-26T22:01:39Z koz_: jcowan: That's a really great idea - I'll do exactly that.
2017-01-26T22:02:44Z koz_: But first - caffeine.
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2017-01-26T22:05:06Z jcowan: Feel free to ask questions, which at worst will get blank looks
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2017-01-26T22:14:16Z wasamasa: jcowan: somewhat jokey suggestion on #emacs: <wasamasa> let's add serializable continuations to r7rs-large
2017-01-26T22:14:29Z wasamasa: jcowan: as inspired by certain smalltalk systems like squeak/seaside
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2017-01-26T22:15:56Z rjungemann: Racket can do it
2017-01-26T22:16:05Z rjungemann: Seems really tough to implement well... but it is cool
2017-01-26T22:17:16Z rjungemann: http://blog.racket-lang.org/2010/10/the-two-state-solution-native-and-serializable-continuations-accord.html
2017-01-26T22:20:20Z rjungemann: There's a link to a paper where they explain how they do it... actually the approach might be portable http://cs.brown.edu/~sk/Publications/Papers/Published/mfgkf-web-restructuring-cps-journal/paper.pdf
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2017-01-26T22:33:55Z jcowan: "except the tools don't mistakes."
2017-01-26T22:33:57Z jcowan chuckles
2017-01-26T22:34:39Z qu1j0t3 sniggers
2017-01-26T22:34:43Z koz_: jcowan: Lol... considering what I've been dealing with for the last week or so.
2017-01-26T22:34:47Z koz_: (in several places)
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2017-01-26T23:23:06Z rjungemann: I'm looking into your question koz_, I think you can add code to the `sexp sexp_eval_op (sexp ctx, sexp self, sexp_sint_t n, sexp obj, sexp env)` function in `eval.c:2568`
2017-01-26T23:24:11Z rjungemann: I'm trying to see if there's a better place to hook in. Something is screwy with clang on my work laptop so I'll have to try something out on my other laptop in a bit.
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2017-01-26T23:44:26Z rjungemann: OMG "time.h" on OS X is NOT compatible with "time.h" on Linux
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2017-01-26T23:51:28Z lemonpie: isn't OSX's time.h BSD's
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2017-01-26T23:52:38Z rjungemann: Yeah the BSDs all share common functionality, but it is different than Linux's
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2017-01-26T23:53:13Z rjungemann: It's all fine and good, it's just not good when I'm just trying to quickly slap some code together for koz_ to profile with :¬)
2017-01-26T23:53:23Z rjungemann: Figured it out
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2017-01-26T23:59:00Z rjungemann: koz_ give this a try (be warned, the output is a bit gnarly) https://gist.github.com/rjungemann/94631171843a3161117a7fc8adb4b115
2017-01-27T00:00:35Z rjungemann: It spits the form being evaluated to stderr when it begins and when it ends (so it should be possible to match the beginning and the end) and when it is done it spits out the time in nanoseconds (although on BSD it will be rounded to nearest millisecond). You can pipe the output of your script to a shell script which will analyze the output of stderr and
2017-01-27T00:00:35Z rjungemann: could build a tree of the evaled forms
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2017-01-27T00:02:11Z rjungemann: If you have ideas of what you'd like to have the output look like, I can help with that. I've gotten pretty familiar with Chibi's C FFI the past few days...
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2017-01-27T00:21:45Z rjungemann: I was hoping to get it to output the heap-stats too, but I was having trouble getting it to work. I have a fairly good idea why, but it's a long story, and outputting heap-stats can be easily done scheme-side anyway
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2017-01-27T01:14:00Z rjungemann: I'm not 100% sure I'm hooking into the right place... I'll look a little more into it later
2017-01-27T01:14:47Z koz_: rjungemann: Thanks for that - I'll just examine it now.
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2017-01-27T01:15:52Z koz_: OK, I think I see what this is doing. I'll need to rebuild Chibi for it.
2017-01-27T01:16:22Z koz_: Once I do this reading on integer sequence compression and seeing if it helps me, as well as changing an algorithm from O(nk) to O(nlog(n)), that's my next goal.
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2017-01-27T04:19:39Z koz_: Could someone have a look at this and tell me if I'm going mad? http://lpaste.net/351687
2017-01-27T04:19:56Z koz_: I have *absolutely no idea* where the error described there is coming from, but maybe I'm just blind.
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2017-01-27T04:33:32Z rjungemann: I'll take a look
2017-01-27T04:34:07Z rjungemann: First impression is, pass an additional argument to factorial, some sort of "name", that way you can figure out if it's the first, second, or third place that is causing the issue
2017-01-27T04:36:08Z rjungemann: You can comment out all the code except for the factorial definition and like add a `(factorial 1)`. Some notes: You're not using `x`, and I think your function right now returns a function? Like you're not calling fact-iter internally?
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2017-01-27T04:37:24Z rjungemann: Omg I think one of your `i` identifiers is like unicode or something. I went and rewrote each `i` and now I get a different error
2017-01-27T04:37:53Z rjungemann: Ohhhhhhh
2017-01-27T04:37:59Z rjungemann: `(import (scheme base))` or something
2017-01-27T04:38:05Z rjungemann: `define` is not defined
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2017-01-27T04:40:27Z rjungemann: https://gist.github.com/rjungemann/b2f0b69d03694548468d75ccf3a1282c
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2017-01-27T04:40:39Z rjungemann: That will get you to `undefined variable: --`. Not sure where that is defined
2017-01-27T04:52:01Z koz_: rjungemann: Thanks - I'll take a look.
2017-01-27T04:52:14Z koz_: It was wrapped in a library - I should have made that more clear.
2017-01-27T04:52:31Z rjungemann: Ah got it
2017-01-27T04:52:35Z koz_: And it *was* factorial at fault...
2017-01-27T04:52:45Z koz_ should probably take a break, lol.
2017-01-27T04:52:52Z rjungemann: I'm pretty sure the factorial method you provided would return a lambda instead of actually doing anything :¬)
2017-01-27T04:53:06Z koz_: rjungemann: Yeah, I forgot a vital step along the way. :P
2017-01-27T04:53:17Z koz_: So to answer my own question - I'm not insane, just inattentive.
2017-01-27T04:53:33Z rjungemann: I need to revisit that profiling code I posted. I think it won't track all function calls... it's a fun exploration though. First time digging this far into a VM
2017-01-27T04:53:36Z rjungemann: Hehe :¬)
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2017-01-27T04:55:26Z koz_: rjungemann: Also, not quite - I won't return a lambda; it'll return an undefined value, becasue the last form was a define.
2017-01-27T04:55:33Z koz_: Which, according to the standard, returns an undefined value.
2017-01-27T04:55:40Z koz_: Chibi is a *pedantically* referential implementation.
2017-01-27T04:55:50Z rjungemann: Ah you're right, it's like void or something
2017-01-27T04:56:18Z koz_: rjungemann: Indeed.
2017-01-27T04:56:24Z rjungemann: Fun fact: chibi afaik doesn't expose a `void` reference to the scheme-side but you can grab a reference to `SEXP_VOID` from the C-side
2017-01-27T04:56:28Z koz_: Although theoretically, it could return 'you-are-dumb or something.
2017-01-27T04:56:46Z koz_: Or 'dont-assign-use-this-anywhere.
2017-01-27T04:56:58Z koz_: s/assign-//
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2017-01-27T10:00:11Z rjungemann: koz_ better profiling in scheme, no recompiling needed. It does require replacing the `define` to profile with `define~` or the `lambda` to profile with `lambda~`. https://gist.github.com/rjungemann/dd418dd5ee4d666dae207e9b0b06d3a6
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2017-01-27T10:08:13Z koz_: rjungemann: That's... really clever. Thanks!
2017-01-27T10:08:27Z koz_: Just goes to show - there ain't nothing you can't do with macros.
2017-01-27T10:08:59Z rjungemann: At least the low-level ones :¬)
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2017-01-27T21:43:08Z koz_: This is as much an algorithmic question as anything else. I'm trying to initialize a block of bits, which will always have a power-of-2 bits in it, starting with 8 (so 8, 16, 32, 64, etc bits). Additionally, those blocks need to have some fraction of their bits (from 1/8 to 7/8) set to 1, and the rest are 0. Lastly, those bits need to be scattered around randomly. My current approach involves generating solid
2017-01-27T21:43:10Z koz_: blocks of bits and leaving the rest empty, then Fisher-Yates shuffling them. However, when I get to ~1M bits, this gets really slow. Is there a way to do this more quickly that you folks can think of, while not breaking any requirements?
2017-01-27T21:45:28Z rjungemann: Get the count that you want and then insert to random indices, retrying if the index is already filled?
2017-01-27T21:45:53Z gwatt: What is this going to ultimately be used for?
2017-01-27T21:47:21Z koz_: gwatt: It's to generate data for my evolutionary algorithm experiments.
2017-01-27T21:47:33Z koz_: rjungemann: That's... actually pretty clever. I dunno why I didn't think of that.
2017-01-27T21:47:53Z rjungemann: It should be faster than shuffling but there are probably even faster approaches
2017-01-27T21:48:17Z koz_: rjungemann: Yeah, especially when the fraction is smaller.
2017-01-27T21:48:31Z koz_: I think I'll give that one a try. If you (or anyone else) can think of an even faster way, I'm all ears.
2017-01-27T21:53:59Z rjungemann: Here's a `times` function I created for a uuid library I'm making. It's not really useful for immutable stuff but it would probably work well for your use case https://gist.github.com/rjungemann/217863452b06a1d32aa9173fd5ec1272
2017-01-27T21:54:07Z gwatt: You might be able to get away with just generating a random number.
2017-01-27T21:54:58Z koz_: gwatt: Could you elaborate on that?
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2017-01-27T21:57:51Z koz_: rjungemann: Does this just do whatever you pass to it n times?
2017-01-27T21:57:56Z rjungemann: Yeah
2017-01-27T21:57:58Z rjungemann: Haha
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2017-01-27T22:01:41Z rjungemann: I'm a fan of the approach of "pure function [which] mutates some local data in order to produce an immutable return value" for performance personally (quote from https://clojure.org/reference/transients)
2017-01-27T22:03:12Z koz_: rjungemann: Likewise.
2017-01-27T22:04:51Z gwatt: koz_: just take the output of a random number generator.
2017-01-27T22:05:18Z gwatt: There's a good chance it will have an appropriate number of bits set.
2017-01-27T22:07:09Z koz_: gwatt: I tried *that* approach already. It's... not very quick, especially since I have to check each time, and regenerate if I'm off.
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2017-01-27T22:20:42Z koz_: rjungemann: I can confirm that your approach is ~40% faster than a shuffle on average.
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2017-01-27T22:56:16Z rjungemann: Ooh cool
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2017-01-28T19:44:20Z uma_: hello there
2017-01-28T19:45:54Z qu1j0t3: uma_: hi
2017-01-28T19:46:05Z uma_: hi
2017-01-28T19:46:43Z uma_: I pretty new to scheme, but I'm having really having hard time finding libraries for REST dev
2017-01-28T19:47:24Z uma_: do you have any suggestion on that?
2017-01-28T19:49:29Z wasamasa: use a http client library and write procedures around your API
2017-01-28T19:49:47Z qu1j0t3: yeah- Chicken scheme shoul dhave a suitable library http://wiki.call-cc.org/chicken-projects/egg-index-4.html
2017-01-28T19:49:51Z wasamasa: http://wiki.call-cc.org/eggref/4/rest-bind
2017-01-28T19:49:58Z wasamasa: didn't try that one yet
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2017-01-28T19:50:24Z uma_: mhm ok, but I will check on that, thanks. Can you explain me another thing?
2017-01-28T19:50:26Z wasamasa: I typically use http://wiki.call-cc.org/eggref/4/http-client
2017-01-28T19:50:27Z lucasem: Racket has good libraries for web stuff
2017-01-28T19:50:39Z wasamasa: because I hardly if ever need every single API feature
2017-01-28T19:51:46Z uma_: I understant that scheme has different implementation, but I find difficult to understand why there are not libraries "shared"/usable from different implementation?
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2017-01-28T19:53:46Z uma_: what I mean by that is why I can't use the eggs from chicken-scheme on, who know, in larceny for example?
2017-01-28T19:54:27Z wasamasa: because scheme is so minimalistic writing portable (library) code in it is an exercise in masochism
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2017-01-28T19:55:30Z uma_: mhmh ok
2017-01-28T19:56:56Z wasamasa: the other problem is convincing everyone to do that :P
2017-01-28T19:57:10Z wasamasa: given the rather small and fragmented scheme community, this is not going to happen
2017-01-28T19:58:34Z uma_: I see, but if I understand correctly the whole purpose of the RXRS standard system is to have a common minimal foundation, which should be compatible between different implementations, right?
2017-01-28T19:58:48Z wasamasa: yeah, sure, but try programming with these alone
2017-01-28T19:58:54Z wasamasa: a http client library is not minimal
2017-01-28T19:59:14Z wasamasa: you'll need something like https://github.com/sethalves/snow2-client and someone writing a http-client package for it
2017-01-28T19:59:33Z wasamasa: while only using srfis
2017-01-28T19:59:57Z uma_: very intersting this snow2-client
2017-01-28T20:00:41Z lucasem: uma_: you might be interested in this: http://docs.racket-lang.org/more/
2017-01-28T20:01:00Z lucasem: (if you aren't set on Chicken scheme)
2017-01-28T20:01:30Z lucasem: (there's a hello world server example in that link)
2017-01-28T20:03:44Z uma_: I know quite well racket, but I wanted to explore other schemes. I will look at chicken-scheme. I was just curious about other implementation and tried to implement a rest api.
2017-01-28T20:04:23Z wasamasa: what do you specifically mean?
2017-01-28T20:04:40Z wasamasa: designing one for a set of resources and offering them via http?
2017-01-28T20:05:04Z wasamasa: or writing a client library for accessing an existing API without having to worry about http?
2017-01-28T20:05:58Z lucasem: uma_: if you're interesting in using other schemes, I've always had a thing for MIT-Scheme. TCP Sockets documented here: http://sicp.ai.mit.edu/Fall-2003/manuals/scheme-7.5.5/doc/scheme_16.html#SEC166
2017-01-28T20:06:07Z lucasem: (and also on GNU's scheme ref)
2017-01-28T20:06:48Z uma_: No, not to access an exisitng API. To create one from zero, with and ORM layer maybe to access database ecc.. I will appily avoid for now the low-level http things..
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2017-01-28T20:07:11Z wasamasa: I don't know anything scheme for that
2017-01-28T20:07:28Z wasamasa: http://clojure-liberator.github.io/liberator/ <- clojure
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2017-01-28T20:07:41Z wasamasa: which nicks off from https://github.com/basho/webmachine
2017-01-28T20:08:54Z wasamasa: liberator is rather magical, but extremely useful for writing REST APIs
2017-01-28T20:09:21Z uma_: Thank wasamas for WebMachine, didn't know about it.. I will look at it. I was also considering Clojure, but it is more a Lisp-dialect (which I don't know fully)
2017-01-28T20:10:22Z wasamasa: well, all you need to do is porting liberator to portable scheme :P
2017-01-28T20:10:24Z wasamasa: have fun!
2017-01-28T20:10:41Z uma_: ahaha funny..If I was that good..
2017-01-28T20:11:01Z wasamasa: I'm only half-joking
2017-01-28T20:11:13Z wasamasa: if you want to go scheme, you're bound to write your own libraries at some point
2017-01-28T20:11:28Z wasamasa: I've mostly avoided it with CHICKEN, but contributed some eggs lately
2017-01-28T20:11:35Z uma_: ok, this is the impression I had so far
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2017-01-28T20:12:15Z uma_: anyway, thank you for you time
2017-01-28T20:12:22Z wasamasa: and I cannot imagine how I'd turn most of them into portable code, as all except one uses its FFI
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2017-01-28T20:14:07Z uma_: but it should be possible to create a portable library for any scheme implementation through FFI, right?
2017-01-28T20:14:24Z wasamasa: um, what?
2017-01-28T20:14:31Z wasamasa: FFI is a non-standard feature
2017-01-28T20:14:57Z uma_: oh, I thought it stood for foreign-founction-interface
2017-01-28T20:15:02Z wasamasa: yes it does
2017-01-28T20:15:14Z wasamasa: do you seriously believe every scheme is using the same FFI API?
2017-01-28T20:15:46Z wasamasa: the only one usable across more than one scheme system I've seen is a r6rs thing
2017-01-28T20:15:46Z uma_: I thought they should share something between them..
2017-01-28T20:16:11Z wasamasa: compare racket with CHICKEN for instance
2017-01-28T20:16:30Z wasamasa: racket is using a runtime-based approach while CHICKEN compiles to modules
2017-01-28T20:17:08Z wasamasa: their features aren't interchangeable either
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2017-01-28T20:17:37Z uma_: it here that I don't get the usefulness of the RNRS standards
2017-01-28T20:18:42Z wasamasa: it's like maslow's hierarchy of needs
2017-01-28T20:19:17Z pjb: uma_: when you write a program that only uses the r5rs, then you can run this program on all the implementations that implement r5rs.  This is a good thing.
2017-01-28T20:19:40Z wasamasa: you'll need a solid base before accomodating to less fundamental needs
2017-01-28T20:20:14Z wasamasa: what good is FFI if your scoping is ill-defined?
2017-01-28T20:20:40Z uma_: ok I get it, then there libraries implementing Rnrs are portable between different implementation of scheme in Rnrs..
2017-01-28T20:20:52Z wasamasa: RNRS is a standard
2017-01-28T20:21:09Z wasamasa: have you read one?
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2017-01-28T20:21:30Z uma_: I was reading a little bit
2017-01-28T20:21:38Z wasamasa: here, it's just 50 pages: http://www.schemers.org/Documents/Standards/R5RS/
2017-01-28T20:22:03Z uma_: ok, interesting
2017-01-28T20:22:30Z wasamasa: only something implementing the entirety of it may be called a scheme implementation
2017-01-28T20:23:00Z wasamasa: the other thing you were speaking of is probably http://srfi.schemers.org/
2017-01-28T20:24:14Z uma_: ok, I'm starting to undestand better
2017-01-28T20:26:01Z uma_: thank you again
2017-01-28T20:26:09Z wasamasa: you're welcome
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2017-01-28T22:51:59Z taylan: wtf is gf3
2017-01-28T22:52:02Z taylan: whoops
2017-01-28T22:52:06Z taylan: wrong channel :|
2017-01-28T22:52:13Z taylan: gf3: my sincere apologies
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2017-01-29T01:50:52Z koz_: Has someone here used chibi-doc before? I'm a bit confused how to use it to generate documentation from source files?
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2017-01-29T02:19:03Z republican_devil: how goes the schemeing
2017-01-29T02:19:05Z republican_devil: ?
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2017-01-29T02:34:34Z koz_: republican_devil: Great - I just got a PR into Cyclone Scheme.
2017-01-29T02:34:37Z koz_: (for SRFI 60 support)
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2017-01-29T02:36:49Z republican_devil: whats a pr?
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2017-01-29T02:38:11Z republican_devil: hows it difer from chicken?
2017-01-29T02:38:32Z koz_: republican_devil: PR = pull request. It's a way to contribute to another person's project by making a copy of it, doing some changes, then asking them to merge it back in.
2017-01-29T02:38:48Z koz_: republican_devil: Cyclone is a new R7RS-compliant Scheme-to-C compiler.
2017-01-29T02:38:59Z koz_: It has native threads too.
2017-01-29T02:39:22Z koz_: Although it's still fairly young and needs work, hence my contributions.
2017-01-29T02:40:56Z republican_devil: sounds like it might support some fast web programming?
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2017-01-29T02:41:22Z koz_: republican_devil: Possibly. It supports fast *anything* programming, at least potentially, but it still needs a lot of work.
2017-01-29T02:41:41Z republican_devil: why not use chicken? they also mention the cheney
2017-01-29T02:42:05Z republican_devil: do you reccomend sicp for learning scheme?
2017-01-29T02:43:03Z koz_: republican_devil: No reason - just that I like Cyclone, and want to contribute.
2017-01-29T02:43:16Z koz_: SICP is good for learning, but I think it depends on what you wanna do.
2017-01-29T02:43:27Z koz_: Like, do you have a particular kind of programming in mind? Have you coded in any other langauges before?
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2017-01-29T02:53:04Z koz_: Hiya justinethier!
2017-01-29T02:53:16Z koz_: Nice to see you here - I'm just working on those tests now.
2017-01-29T03:21:22Z justinethier: koz_: hey :)
2017-01-29T03:21:29Z justinethier: awesome, thank you
2017-01-29T03:21:41Z justinethier: I'm not on here all the time but try to check in
2017-01-29T03:21:54Z justinethier: picked a bad week last week to go offline
2017-01-29T03:22:56Z justinethier: been working on the Cyclone GC (among other things) so been keeping an even lower profile recently
2017-01-29T03:23:15Z justinethier: anyway... thanks for all your help :)
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2017-01-29T03:31:31Z koz_: justinethier: No problem - glad to be helping! I'm happy to handle high-level stuff - it's easier to get into, and I don't even *begin* to understand the low-level stuff.
2017-01-29T03:31:40Z koz_: Although I'm hoping you plan to add bignums soon.
2017-01-29T03:32:46Z koz_: (via libTom or some other way)
2017-01-29T03:32:47Z justinethier: Do you need them?
2017-01-29T03:33:07Z koz_: justinethier: Yeah, I do actually. Or rather, it'd make portability between Chibi and Cyclone a *hell* of a lot easier for me.
2017-01-29T03:33:20Z koz_: (because otherwise, I'd have to simulate bignums myself, which is both slow and error-prone)
2017-01-29T03:33:30Z justinethier: I would like to have them but haven't looked into it much beyond the link you sent
2017-01-29T03:33:39Z justinethier: Can start looking at it soon though
2017-01-29T03:34:00Z koz_: justinethier: It'd be great if you would - I've taken a look at libTomMath,and it seems to be pretty good from what I can tell.
2017-01-29T03:34:12Z koz_: It contains all the useful primitives, and even a few other nice things (fast primality tests).
2017-01-29T03:34:56Z justinethier: I wanted to get the GC to a point where I can merge all the changes (both bugfixes and multithreading performance improvements) back to master and I think its pretty much there
2017-01-29T03:35:52Z justinethier: Once that's done would be a good time to take on another large task such as bignums
2017-01-29T03:36:03Z koz_: justinethier: Excellent! I'd probably wanna rerun the fpic benchmarks after that gets merged to see how it compares with the last run.
2017-01-29T03:36:50Z justinethier: ok
2017-01-29T03:37:28Z justinethier: it should be about the same, maybe just a bit slower due to calling more atomic operations, but nothing significant
2017-01-29T03:38:56Z justinethier: Unfortunately the first set of changes had to be thrown out because they slowed down single-threaded code but the latest set does not
2017-01-29T03:40:02Z koz_: justinethier: It's good that your latest set doesn't have that problem - it would have been... undesirable.
2017-01-29T03:40:16Z justinethier: agreed
2017-01-29T03:43:34Z justinethier: Its funny you mention bignums because CHICKEN 5 just added them to core
2017-01-29T03:44:39Z justinethier: Peter Bex blogged about it a bit - although this is lower-level stuff: http://www.more-magic.net/posts/numeric-tower-part-1.html
2017-01-29T03:44:40Z koz_: They're a very useful thing to have, so that's not surprising (at least for me).
2017-01-29T03:45:05Z koz_: Arbitrary-precision math is better lower-down; this is another reason why I'm all for 'reuse, not reinvent' here.
2017-01-29T03:45:21Z koz_: While I know *in theory* how to use Karatsuba multiplication, I'd hate to have to actually code it.
2017-01-29T03:45:29Z koz_: (*especially* in C)
2017-01-29T03:45:41Z justinethier: Heh
2017-01-29T03:46:12Z justinethier: I haven't read this series in depth (been meaning to...) but I can imagine
2017-01-29T03:46:55Z justinethier: There are a couple of other rough edges in Cyclone that will need to be cleaned up for bignums. there aren't proper integer overflow checks right now
2017-01-29T03:47:27Z justinethier: if an integer overflow is detected by one of the basic numeric operations it probably should coerce the result to a bignum
2017-01-29T03:48:13Z koz_: Yeah, that's definitely a plan. Alternatively, we could do bignum-by-default, and then implement something like SRFI 143 for performance maniacs.
2017-01-29T03:48:41Z koz_: I know that the GNU bignum library optimizes the case of 'fits into fixnum range' pretty well.
2017-01-29T03:48:50Z koz_: (unsure if libTom does this though, I'd have to read the sauce code)
2017-01-29T03:49:44Z justinethier: i think you want fixnum integers by default. in cyclone they are immediate values so there is no heap allocation or GC overhead for them
2017-01-29T03:50:24Z justinethier: bignums by default could have major performance implications
2017-01-29T03:50:40Z justinethier: I'm a bit worried what the overhead of overflow checking will be
2017-01-29T03:50:49Z justinethier: but that is important, so...
2017-01-29T03:51:15Z koz_: There's gonna be an overhead anyway - whether due to bignum-by-default or by overflow checking.
2017-01-29T03:51:36Z koz_: If we want to avoid this, we can provide 'raw' ops via SRFI 143.
2017-01-29T03:51:41Z justinethier: true
2017-01-29T03:51:53Z koz_: (so the default + and friends check, but the SRFI 143 + and friends don't)
2017-01-29T03:52:37Z koz_: So what you could probably do is implement 'checking-and-bignumming' versions of all the primitive maths ops, and leave the non-checking ones in, and then we can staple an SRFI 143 interface to the non-checking ones.
2017-01-29T03:52:45Z koz_: That'd probably be *easier* to do, if anything.
2017-01-29T03:53:18Z justinethier: ah, yes that sounds reasonable
2017-01-29T03:54:47Z koz_: It gives us an SRFI essentially for free, which always makes me happy, and then, if people *need* to go fast, they have the option (in a portable way, to boot).
2017-01-29T03:55:14Z justinethier: I think that's a good plan
2017-01-29T03:55:32Z justinethier: let me look into bignums... hopefully there will be some time next week to start giving it more thought
2017-01-29T03:55:40Z koz_: I'm happy to do the SRFI interface once you've gotten the core code doing its thing.
2017-01-29T03:55:57Z justinethier: The PI benchmark is an added bonus :) - http://www.larcenists.org/benchmarksAboutR7.html#pi
2017-01-29T03:56:04Z koz_: Yeah, definitely!
2017-01-29T03:56:07Z justinethier: Cool, ok
2017-01-29T03:57:17Z koz_: (I'd also have to modify the C code in SRFI 60 once that's done as well)
2017-01-29T03:57:24Z koz_: (another reason why I kept it to a minimum.
2017-01-29T03:57:27Z koz_: s/./)
2017-01-29T03:57:37Z justinethier: :)
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2017-01-29T04:48:07Z justinethier: koz_: Do you have anything against https://gmplib.org/ - I've never used it but its supposed to be quite fast
2017-01-29T04:48:09Z justinethier: http://gambitscheme.org/wiki/index.php?title=Benchmarks&oldid=2267
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2017-01-29T05:06:20Z justinethier: 'night all...
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2017-01-29T18:57:10Z koz_: Is there anyone here who would like to maintain vim's syntax highlighting for Scheme? I just heard from the current maintainer, and he basically says that he's no longer willing to do it. The highlighting is *very* dated (no R*6*RS support, forget R7RS).
2017-01-29T19:01:26Z wasamasa looks at koz_ 
2017-01-29T19:01:49Z koz_: wasamasa: I don't know Vimscript *nearly* well enough for something like this.
2017-01-29T19:02:16Z wasamasa: koz_: well, you know what to do
2017-01-29T19:02:27Z koz_: wasamasa: I'll first see if anyone else wants to.
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2017-01-29T19:02:48Z wasamasa: muahaha
2017-01-29T19:05:25Z koz_: I'm asking everywhere I can - hopefully someone will bite. It's very unfortunate that this is something I seriously have to worry about in my Cthulhu-damned *editor*.
2017-01-29T19:05:55Z wasamasa: http://learnvimscriptthehardway.stevelosh.com/
2017-01-29T19:07:01Z wasamasa: and no, I doubt you'll get steve losh to agree as he's a CL user :D
2017-01-29T19:07:11Z koz_: wasamasa: I wasn't planning on asking them.
2017-01-29T19:07:36Z koz_: I'm just putting this out there to see if *anyone* bites. Chances are, no-one will, because near-as-I-can-tell, pretty much all Schemers seem to use Emacs.
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2017-01-29T19:08:05Z wasamasa: well, indeed
2017-01-29T19:12:05Z koz_: I suspect I'll probably have to make a 'better-scheme' package or something. *sigh*
2017-01-29T19:13:00Z wasamasa: you'll just have to read vim docs and adjust stuff
2017-01-29T19:13:23Z wasamasa: it's not like you're actually programming
2017-01-29T19:13:27Z ecraven: ah, steve losh, that was beast / silt2, right?
2017-01-29T19:13:42Z wasamasa: the syntax highlighting files I've seen were keywords, regex and the occasional string matching thing
2017-01-29T19:14:04Z wasamasa: I have my doubts they have a feature for nested comments à la #| |#
2017-01-29T19:14:16Z wasamasa: neither for s-expression comments via #;
2017-01-29T19:14:19Z koz_: wasamasa: Yeah, I know, I know. And they do, probably - C does this fine.
2017-01-29T19:14:27Z wasamasa: C does *not* have nested comments
2017-01-29T19:14:29Z koz_: s-expression comments will be *very* irritating to do.
2017-01-29T19:14:34Z koz_: /* */ don't nest?
2017-01-29T19:14:39Z pjb: nope.
2017-01-29T19:14:40Z wasamasa: not in C
2017-01-29T19:14:45Z koz_: Huh. Well, TIL I guess.
2017-01-29T19:14:46Z pjb: but // do nest: // // // :-)
2017-01-29T19:15:11Z wasamasa: why would you want to keep track of nesting levels?
2017-01-29T19:15:23Z wasamasa: it makes things way more annoying to highlight correctly
2017-01-29T19:15:48Z koz_: I care mostly about comment highlighting and indentation - I use Nofrils.
2017-01-29T19:16:01Z wasamasa: I dunno how their indentation works
2017-01-29T19:16:05Z koz_: (although I guess if I end up doing this, I should do highlighting too)
2017-01-29T19:16:12Z koz_: wasamasa: Not well, at least in the case of Scheme.
2017-01-29T19:16:20Z wasamasa rolls eyes
2017-01-29T19:16:33Z wasamasa: to do well, you'd need to copy the algorithm as implemented by emacs
2017-01-29T19:16:40Z koz_: It regularly gets confused about how to indent something like cond-expand or define-syntax.
2017-01-29T19:16:53Z wasamasa: but who knows, maybe it actually works good enough and you just need to teach it indentation for ^
2017-01-29T19:16:59Z wasamasa: same with emacs
2017-01-29T19:17:09Z koz_: wasamasa: Really? *Emacs* gets confused with that?
2017-01-29T19:17:31Z wasamasa: https://github.com/wasamasa/dotemacs/blob/master/init.org#scheme
2017-01-29T19:18:21Z wasamasa: emacs doesn't know about cond-expand's indentation, no
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2017-01-29T19:19:56Z ecraven: sometimes, in idle moments, I wonder why emacs doesn't just parse the entire sexp and support highlighting based on structure, not on regular expressions and text...
2017-01-29T19:20:24Z wasamasa: some modes do that
2017-01-29T19:20:34Z ecraven: any lisp/scheme mode?
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2017-01-29T19:20:55Z wasamasa: if you eval stuff in CIDER, it adds highlighting information for newly recognized macros
2017-01-29T19:21:05Z wasamasa: that's pretty cool to have
2017-01-29T19:21:29Z ecraven: yea, unfortunately all the traditionall lisp/scheme modes don't seem to do this :-/
2017-01-29T19:21:31Z wasamasa: other than that, it has an ad-hoc implementation of s-expression/comment parsing
2017-01-29T19:21:36Z wasamasa: see syntax tables
2017-01-29T19:21:52Z ecraven: yea, but only the actual implementation knows whether something is a macro or not, for example
2017-01-29T19:21:58Z wasamasa: of course
2017-01-29T19:22:22Z wasamasa: talk with the geiser people about it :P
2017-01-29T19:22:27Z ecraven: libclang starts to make things like this normal for c++, would be nice to have something like it for scheme :-/ geiser might be able to do this, actually, with  a bit of work
2017-01-29T19:22:29Z ecraven: hehe, yea
2017-01-29T19:23:44Z wasamasa: I haven't hacked on it yet as every time I give it a spin, I end up reporting bugs instead
2017-01-29T19:23:50Z koz_: wasamasa and ecraven: Well, if nobody takes up this flag, I'm gonna have to do it.
2017-01-29T19:24:16Z koz_: (because clearly having to send bug reports and patches to my Scheme *implementation* of choice isn't enough; I gotta do it for my *editor* of choice too...)
2017-01-29T19:24:33Z ecraven: wasamasa: I've added a few preliminary backends, but it doesn't have SLIME's scope by quite a bit yet :-/
2017-01-29T19:24:51Z ecraven: koz_: well, is there anything more important than your editor?
2017-01-29T19:25:16Z ecraven: chair, keyboard and editor (and to a lesser extent the screen) are the main things you interact with every day, aren't they?
2017-01-29T19:26:56Z wasamasa: koz_: well, before you do anything rash, look into customizing vim properly
2017-01-29T19:26:59Z wasamasa: koz_: read the docs
2017-01-29T19:27:10Z ecraven: (or use geiser / slime :p)
2017-01-29T19:27:52Z koz_: ecraven: No, there's nothing more important. However, it's not really something I expect to have to do myself. I sometimes wonder how much of anything gets done - I spend nearly as much time fixing things to work as they should as I do actually working.
2017-01-29T19:27:59Z koz_: (and then people wonder wtf I do all day, lol)
2017-01-29T19:28:15Z koz_: wasamasa: Yeah, of course. Assuming someone who already knows all this doesn't beat me to the punch.
2017-01-29T19:28:18Z ecraven: well, imho some time spent customizing your editor is almost always a win in the end
2017-01-29T19:28:47Z ecraven: just using C-. instead of C-x b feels like a win for me ;) feels so much faster
2017-01-29T19:29:06Z ecraven: or jj instead of Escape in vim
2017-01-29T19:29:09Z koz_: ecraven: Customizing, yes. This is ... a tad beyond that, considering that *basic* *current* support for Scheme doesn't seem like much to ask for.
2017-01-29T19:29:22Z koz_: Oh well, guess that's how this goes.
2017-01-29T19:29:48Z ecraven: koz_: I've never used vim + Scheme, so no idea how well that works. I've heard it's supposed to be ok
2017-01-29T19:30:24Z ecraven: but Someone™ should write a geiser backend SRFI or something like that, so you can have some sort of portable REPL
2017-01-29T19:30:36Z koz_: ecraven: It supports R5RS, kinda-sorta-not-really.
2017-01-29T19:30:50Z ecraven: well, can't be too hard to add the few new "keywords" to highlighting
2017-01-29T19:30:56Z koz_: Given that R5RS is at this point old enough to go to uni, it's kinda sad.
2017-01-29T19:31:11Z ecraven: differences between r5rs and r7rs aren't huge though
2017-01-29T19:31:33Z koz_: ecraven: It's not just keywords. Block and sexpr comments and proper alignment of new constructs that are not part of R5RS are kinda not that simple.
2017-01-29T19:31:44Z koz_: (if it was just keywords, I'd have fixed it already and sent a patch)
2017-01-29T19:31:54Z koz_: (not that I care about keyword highlighting, because I use Nofrils anyhow)
2017-01-29T19:32:17Z ecraven: in emacs they are, you just say (put 'receive 'scheme-indent-function 2) to tell emacs how to indent `receive' properly. no idea how vim does it
2017-01-29T19:32:28Z wasamasa: http://www.foldling.org/scheme.html#editing-scheme-with-vim
2017-01-29T19:32:56Z ecraven: about comments, yea, that probably involves a bit of programming (again, not hard in emacs, as it provides all the basic building blocks anyway)
2017-01-29T19:33:04Z koz_: I might just have to use some of the advice there, although not having to call out to an external indenter isn't ideal.
2017-01-29T19:33:20Z koz_: But anyway, I'm gonna keep investigating if anyone would prefer to deal with this, but I suspect it'll have to be me.
2017-01-29T19:33:51Z ecraven: koz_: unfortunately, that's what it almost always ends up with: you want it, you do it
2017-01-29T19:35:34Z wasamasa: koz_: have you read the whole blog post?
2017-01-29T19:35:35Z koz_: ecraven: Yeah, I know. Been there, and not even once.
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2017-01-29T19:37:00Z koz_: wasamasa: Wow, it seems like I hadn't. That... basically solves my issue, if it's as complete as is claimed.
2017-01-29T19:37:01Z ecraven: koz_: flip side is, you learn about so many things you never thought you'd learn about :D
2017-01-29T19:37:19Z wasamasa: koz_: I guess you have a new yearly resolution then
2017-01-29T19:37:23Z wasamasa: koz_: reading moarrr
2017-01-29T19:37:37Z koz_: ecraven: Yeah, definitely. wasamasa: You mean 'reading properly', right?
2017-01-29T19:37:56Z wasamasa: not nearly as memetic
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2017-01-29T20:14:24Z koz_: wasamasa: Can confirm that this solves all problems. Why this isn't upstream already, I have no idea.
2017-01-29T20:14:34Z wasamasa: koz_: ask evhan
2017-01-29T20:14:40Z wasamasa: my guess: laziness
2017-01-29T20:14:58Z koz_: Well, as far as I'm concerned, problems solved.
2017-01-29T20:15:00Z wasamasa: getting patches into vim seems to be even more difficult than with emacs
2017-01-29T20:16:55Z koz_: wasamasa: Well, I appended this to the issue I opened with them. Here's to hoping. But at least for now, my problems are all gone.
2017-01-29T20:17:10Z wasamasa: oh shit, I forgot vim is on github now
2017-01-29T20:17:34Z koz_: (I also find it somewhat ironic that the maintainer for the Scheme syntax highlighting files basically replied to me with 'I don't use Scheme anymore so w/e')
2017-01-29T20:17:49Z wasamasa: it happens
2017-01-29T20:17:56Z wasamasa: people move on to other languages
2017-01-29T20:18:08Z wasamasa: the thing to do in that situation is to find a different maintainer
2017-01-29T20:18:09Z koz_: Isn't it kinda a responsible thing to do to hand over something liek this to someone who *will* maintain it then?
2017-01-29T20:18:13Z wasamasa: but who am I telling that
2017-01-29T20:18:17Z koz_: (especially given that vim isn't exactly a small editor)
2017-01-29T20:18:23Z koz_: s/small/unpopular/
2017-01-29T20:18:59Z wasamasa: you'll get nowhere if you insist that being popular == having no faults
2017-01-29T20:19:00Z koz_: Also, by reading evhan's file, I found that vim handles nested comments just fine.
2017-01-29T20:19:05Z koz_: Using, of all things, a recursive definition. :P
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2017-01-29T20:19:45Z wasamasa: in any case, talk this out with evhan
2017-01-29T20:19:49Z wasamasa: he's here
2017-01-29T20:19:54Z wasamasa: evhan: finish him
2017-01-29T20:20:00Z koz_: wasamasa: I shall - thank you for your help and patience. :)
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2017-01-30T02:32:14Z republican_devil: delta should have used scheme!
2017-01-30T02:32:23Z republican_devil: 2nd big computer breakdown in like weeks
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2017-01-30T02:46:53Z akkad: are there any eggs to walk a filesystem tree on unixy filesystems?
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2017-01-30T04:44:00Z republican_devil: probly
2017-01-30T04:44:06Z republican_devil: see rfi
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2017-01-30T16:17:30Z marrenarre: Hello. Does anyone know why the second version does not terminate like the first one? http://paste.lisp.org/display/337781 http://paste.lisp.org/display/337780
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2017-01-30T16:30:01Z cojy: is this in the repl?
2017-01-30T16:31:16Z gwatt: marrenarre: Assuming you execute those snippets in a repl, the first one contains 4 separate expressions, each of which 'returns' to the repl
2017-01-30T16:31:24Z cojy: I'd it is the continuation has to return to the user in the first one so it's kind of delminited
2017-01-30T16:31:40Z cojy: if it is*
2017-01-30T16:33:33Z gwatt: In the second snippet, the context of the continuation is inside the lambda, immediately before its invocation.
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2017-01-30T16:37:18Z marrenarre: Well, it "hangs" in MIT/GNU Scheme when using "--load <filename>", in SCM when using "-l <filename>", and in DrRacket when running the code after placing it in the "Definitions" area.
2017-01-30T16:38:06Z marrenarre: gwatt: ^
2017-01-30T16:38:16Z marrenarre: cojy: I don't understand what you mean by "delimited".
2017-01-30T16:38:58Z gwatt: marrenarre: both hang? or just the second one?
2017-01-30T16:39:38Z marrenarre: gwatt: Only the second one, titled "Does not terminate".
2017-01-30T16:41:24Z cojy: the correct behavior is for it not to terminate
2017-01-30T16:41:54Z marrenarre: cojy: I see. Could you explain what you mean by "delimited"?
2017-01-30T16:42:00Z cojy: marrenarre: the repl delimits the extent of the continuation to each expression
2017-01-30T16:42:06Z cojy: cuts it off
2017-01-30T16:43:20Z cojy: a continuation from call/cc is always the entire rest of the program
2017-01-30T16:44:16Z marrenarre: Hmm. I don't think I've fully understood continuations, then.
2017-01-30T16:45:27Z cojy: there are delimited continuations where you can cut off how far it goes
2017-01-30T16:45:34Z marrenarre: It seems that calling a continuation produces a result as well. How is that value calculated?
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2017-01-30T16:45:48Z gwatt: marrenarre: It's what you pass to the continuation
2017-01-30T16:45:57Z cojy: it returns whatever the program does
2017-01-30T16:46:24Z marrenarre: The whole rest of the program, if the continuation is not delimited?
2017-01-30T16:46:35Z gwatt: if you have a continuation `k', (k 5) returns 5 to the continuation
2017-01-30T16:47:34Z marrenarre: And then the program will again reach the point where the continuation is called?
2017-01-30T16:47:46Z marrenarre: I mean, its execution.
2017-01-30T16:48:17Z gwatt: marrenarre: when you use call/cc, it passes you the current continuation. When you invoke that continuation, it returns you to the point at which call/cc was used
2017-01-30T16:49:37Z marrenarre: So if I want to use non-delimited continuations, do I need to wrap my entire program in lambda syntax and call that?
2017-01-30T16:49:42Z gwatt: So (call/cc (lambda (k) (+ 1 2 3 (k (* 4 k 5))))) gives you 20
2017-01-30T16:51:12Z gwatt: That question is too vague; the answer to it depends on what you're trying to do.
2017-01-30T16:51:26Z marrenarre: gwatt: I suppose the second `k` in that code should be ignored?
2017-01-30T16:51:34Z marrenarre: Sorry, the third*.
2017-01-30T16:51:41Z gwatt: oh yes
2017-01-30T16:51:42Z gwatt: sorry
2017-01-30T16:52:08Z gwatt: I initially had it only for the 5: (k 5) but decided that was too boring
2017-01-30T16:52:16Z marrenarre: Hehe.
2017-01-30T16:53:19Z marrenarre: Right, but I'm interested in calling the continuation outside of the procedure that is being called with the current continuation.
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2017-01-30T17:03:48Z marrenarre: gwatt: So, let's say I want to "go back and pick another option" in the program---I suppose that'd be a good use of continuations (instead of returning some error value and having it propagate). Would it be reasonable to do (define c '()) (define (back) (c #f)) (if (call/cc (lambda (k) (set! c k) #t)) <first> <when going back>)?
2017-01-30T17:04:12Z marrenarre: Seems to work for me; not sure if it's optimal.
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2017-01-30T17:17:06Z marrenarre: So, the calling of a continuation does in fact not evaluate to any particular value (at least not one that is relevant), because evaluation never uses that value.
2017-01-30T17:18:20Z marrenarre: For example: (define x "foobar") (call/cc (lambda (y) (set! x (y #f))) (display x) ; "foobar" is printed
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2017-01-30T17:22:12Z marrenarre: Well, this is pretty cool, and I think it has actually solved a particular problem I had recently!
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2017-01-30T17:23:22Z marrenarre: Thanks gwatt and cojy! Feel free to reply to what I just wrote before; I will be away for a while, though.
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2017-01-31T03:42:14Z capitalist_devil: siag office still working?
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2017-01-31T06:08:52Z koz_: TIL searching for stuff related to Chibi Scheme can lead to odd results.
2017-01-31T06:09:04Z koz_: (Googling 'chibi test' being the *least* odd)
2017-01-31T06:10:02Z lucasem: strange
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2017-01-31T06:22:05Z koz_: lucasem: I know I am. :)
2017-01-31T06:22:46Z lucasem: I really wish this channel was more active
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2017-01-31T06:27:10Z koz_: lucasem: It *is* pretty quiet, I do admit.
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2017-01-31T08:58:04Z wasamasa: I'm somewhat surprised there's no map-indexed in srfi-1
2017-01-31T08:58:27Z C-Keen: what does it do?
2017-01-31T08:58:37Z wasamasa: in clojure I'd just map over (range) as second argument, but you can't exactly do that in scheme
2017-01-31T08:59:19Z wasamasa: well, it maps over a list and invokes the lambda with an element and an index
2017-01-31T08:59:34Z wasamasa: see also https://clojuredocs.org/clojure.core/map-indexed
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2017-01-31T09:15:55Z wasamasa: here goes
2017-01-31T09:15:59Z wasamasa: http://ix.io/1RzJ
2017-01-31T09:17:25Z C-Keen: like iota?
2017-01-31T09:17:37Z wasamasa: well, without the need to create an extra list :P
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2017-01-31T09:18:02Z C-Keen: I see, probably just a special case of fold then :)
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2017-01-31T09:18:08Z wasamasa: hmm
2017-01-31T09:18:41Z C-Keen: where you keep a counter and increase it then call the user procedure with that
2017-01-31T09:18:45Z C-Keen: and the element
2017-01-31T09:19:04Z wasamasa: you're right, I even wrote my own for-each-indexed with my own fold procedure before
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2017-01-31T09:19:17Z lisper: hey all
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2017-01-31T09:19:27Z wasamasa: how much more difficult would a map-indexed be
2017-01-31T09:19:56Z C-Keen: I guess there are a couple of corner cases and optimisations to consider but other than that...
2017-01-31T09:19:59Z C-Keen: :)
2017-01-31T09:20:27Z C-Keen: also multiple list support
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2017-01-31T09:22:37Z lisper: i understand the (lambda (x) (+ x 1)) form. However, what does
2017-01-31T09:22:44Z lisper:     (lambda args (apply (g g) args)
2017-01-31T09:22:58Z lisper: mean? the "args" are... what? a list?
2017-01-31T09:23:17Z wasamasa: the whole list of arguments
2017-01-31T09:23:39Z lisper: so args is a special keyword?
2017-01-31T09:23:54Z lisper: or does the form imply it?
2017-01-31T09:24:06Z wasamasa: no, just an identifier that's not in a list
2017-01-31T09:24:14Z lisper: i see
2017-01-31T09:24:46Z lisper: comming for clisp... does scheme have the same funcall/apply semantics? only seen apply samples so far
2017-01-31T09:25:15Z wasamasa: there is no funcall
2017-01-31T09:25:18Z lisper: (i never understood the need for both, apply could surely see if it's a list or not)
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2017-01-31T09:25:44Z lisper: well, i guess it's a problem if your *actually* want to use a list argument
2017-01-31T09:26:02Z wasamasa: you can do neat tricks like aliasing a function to another one with define
2017-01-31T09:26:17Z lisper: wasamasa: i see
2017-01-31T09:26:30Z wasamasa: no need for flet
2017-01-31T09:27:10Z lisper: nor labels?
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2017-01-31T09:28:40Z capitalist_devil: can scheme do multi node clusters?
2017-01-31T09:28:53Z capitalist_devil: like user space cluster database?
2017-01-31T09:29:42Z wasamasa: I'm actually an elisp hacker, so I don't know what labels is doing again
2017-01-31T09:30:01Z wasamasa: but for gotos, well, call/cc
2017-01-31T09:30:12Z koz_: lisper: labels is called letrec.
2017-01-31T09:30:30Z koz_: Although to be honest, inner define makes this rather unnecessary in most of the cases I'm used to.
2017-01-31T09:30:42Z lisper: thanks
2017-01-31T09:30:55Z koz_: The reason that you need funcall versus apply is compatibility with older Lisps, because CL was designed to please literally everybody ever.
2017-01-31T09:31:11Z wasamasa: heh
2017-01-31T09:31:35Z koz_: capitalist_devil: I don't understand your question.
2017-01-31T09:31:40Z wasamasa: not to say that there is an equivalent for everything in CL
2017-01-31T09:31:47Z koz_: If you're talking about multiprocessing in general, then yes, you can do that.
2017-01-31T09:31:54Z koz_: wasamasa: No - no regexps, for example.
2017-01-31T09:32:01Z koz_: (no streams either)
2017-01-31T09:32:14Z wasamasa: symbol macros for instance
2017-01-31T09:32:35Z koz_: CL also has weird naming conventions, again, for compatibility with older lists.
2017-01-31T09:32:38Z wasamasa: um, surely regex didn't make it into the standard
2017-01-31T09:32:41Z koz_: s/lists/lisps/
2017-01-31T09:32:48Z koz_: wasamasa: My point exactly.
2017-01-31T09:33:03Z koz_: This is why CL has some functions with names like 'rplaca' and some with names like 'multiple-value-bind'.
2017-01-31T09:33:10Z koz_: Both of which are awful, for very different reasons.
2017-01-31T09:33:12Z wasamasa: I mean CL features but in scheme
2017-01-31T09:33:19Z wasamasa: *not
2017-01-31T09:33:37Z koz_: wasamasa: Oh, yeah, but CL is a do-everything, all-singing, all-dancing, make everyone happy standard.
2017-01-31T09:33:47Z koz_: Scheme never aimed for this (well, not in general anyway).
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2017-01-31T09:34:31Z lisper: scheme makes me smile, CL makes me get stuff done (so far, I hope it changes)
2017-01-31T09:34:37Z wasamasa: I'm looking forward to R7RS doing that with the large edition
2017-01-31T09:34:56Z koz_: lisper: Scheme can be just as capable, and a ${EXPLETIVE}-tonne more coherent, in my experience.
2017-01-31T09:35:14Z koz_: I like the fact that Scheme tries to keep things simple, and has SRFIs to handle extensions to a logical core.
2017-01-31T09:35:47Z wasamasa: as for the somewhat trollish question earlier, I don't see why you'd want to write a database in scheme
2017-01-31T09:35:48Z lisper: koz_: sure, I'm mostly talking about the fact that I can find a CL library for anything. Not so much in Scheme. But Scheme is beautiful.
2017-01-31T09:36:05Z wasamasa: loads of low-level work involved
2017-01-31T09:36:10Z koz_: lisper: Most Schemes have C FFIs, making this fairly moot.
2017-01-31T09:36:14Z lisper: CL took the beauty out of Lisp, for sure
2017-01-31T09:36:24Z koz_: But yeah, it's a tad annoying to have to do this kind of work yourself.
2017-01-31T09:36:26Z lisper: koz_: not moot. Doing FFI's for everything is really fucking ugly
2017-01-31T09:36:47Z lisper: so CL is definitely more practical, but ugly as hell, no doubt
2017-01-31T09:36:55Z koz_: lisper: Hence 'fairly' moot.
2017-01-31T09:36:59Z lisper: meh
2017-01-31T09:37:02Z koz_: Maybe I just have a very different use case.
2017-01-31T09:37:10Z lisper: moot in academia, maybe
2017-01-31T09:37:24Z wasamasa: I find wrappers hard to get right
2017-01-31T09:37:42Z wasamasa contributed five so far
2017-01-31T09:37:45Z koz_: wasamasa: I'm just happy Cyclone Scheme makes this quite easy. It's literally a case of 'write inline C'.
2017-01-31T09:37:57Z lisper: i need to do rest calls, json parsing, access mongodb and mysql in the same backend, etc. Easy with CL, hard work scheme. Stuff like that.
2017-01-31T09:38:20Z lisper: if the scheme ecosystem gets to that level, I see no reason for CL to exist...
2017-01-31T09:38:28Z koz_: lisper: In that case, you have my sympathies, because it sounds like you're working on web apps. :P
2017-01-31T09:38:42Z lisper: koz_: nope, that's just the integration part
2017-01-31T09:38:45Z wasamasa: the problem is that there is not one ecosystem
2017-01-31T09:38:47Z lisper: this is a telco backend
2017-01-31T09:38:55Z lisper: wasamasa: right
2017-01-31T09:39:00Z C-Keen: koz_: yeah but it's hard to come up with a convenient interface for scheme. Otherwise it's just low level C with ()s
2017-01-31T09:39:35Z koz_: C-Keen: Fair enough, but gluing any two languages as different as C and Scheme together is going to be challenging.
2017-01-31T09:39:52Z lisper: also, the Scheme FFI I tried  bugged out with nested structs (too bad the C api had it, but that's the way it was)
2017-01-31T09:39:59Z wasamasa: CHICKEN is pretty good at it, but it doesn't change anything about me having to figure out the C library first
2017-01-31T09:40:04Z C-Keen: koz_: indeed it is! And granted cyclone has a nice FFI
2017-01-31T09:40:08Z koz_: lisper: Which implementation was that, out of interest?
2017-01-31T09:40:13Z koz_: C-Keen: Yeah, it just needs documentation.
2017-01-31T09:40:19Z koz_: (like the rest of Cyclone admittedly)
2017-01-31T09:40:22Z koz_: (I plan to work on this)
2017-01-31T09:40:26Z C-Keen: \o/
2017-01-31T09:40:30Z lisper: koz_: mit/gnu
2017-01-31T09:40:44Z koz_: lisper: Probably not the best thing to use if you need to interface with C IMHO.
2017-01-31T09:41:09Z koz_: C-Keen: I've added SRFI 60 support to Cyclone (just waiting on Justin to merge it in).
2017-01-31T09:41:11Z lisper: koz_: not surprised. what to use instead on a mac?
2017-01-31T09:41:18Z koz_: lisper: Chibi's pretty good.
2017-01-31T09:41:34Z koz_: Has a fairly nice C FFI as well.
2017-01-31T09:41:51Z lisper: koz_: thanks, i'll look into it
2017-01-31T09:41:56Z wasamasa: racket works well there
2017-01-31T09:42:10Z koz_: lisper: http://synthcode.com/scheme/chibi/
2017-01-31T09:42:11Z wasamasa: big ecosystem, too
2017-01-31T09:42:44Z wasamasa: and its FFI has some features I miss in CHICKEN
2017-01-31T09:42:45Z koz_: The only thing I'm a bit unhappy about is that Chibi lacks a profiler.
2017-01-31T09:43:08Z koz_: (apparently it wouldn't be hard to add, but I'm already hacking on *one* Scheme implementation...)
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2017-01-31T10:18:12Z capitalist_devil: why not do database in scheme?
2017-01-31T10:18:21Z capitalist_devil: all the java crap is doing that?
2017-01-31T10:18:37Z capitalist_devil: doesnt scheme have more abilities than java? shouldnt it be better? less code?
2017-01-31T10:18:52Z capitalist_devil: bigtable and hadoop spark etc etc
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2017-01-31T13:34:15Z civodul: hello!
2017-01-31T13:34:22Z civodul: any recommended reading on "stateful" macros?
2017-01-31T13:34:32Z civodul: macros that preserve state across phases
2017-01-31T13:35:15Z civodul: ISTR reading something long ago from Racket or R6 people
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2017-01-31T13:59:35Z elflng-work: https://csl.name/post/lambda-macros-continuations/
2017-01-31T14:03:56Z elflng-work: and iirc theres something on oleg's site about state preserving macros too, but i dont remember for certain
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2017-01-31T16:57:57Z civodul: elflng: thanks for the link
2017-01-31T16:58:24Z civodul: elflng: i don't see anything obviously related to state-preserving macros though, am i overlooking it?
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2017-01-31T23:35:53Z TikityTik: I am having trouble trying to make a recursive procedure as an iterative one.
2017-01-31T23:36:06Z TikityTik: f(n) = n, if n<4; f(n) = 4f(n-1) + 3f(n-2) + 2f(n-3) + 1f(n-4), otherwise
2017-01-31T23:38:59Z TikityTik: should i just make a list of all calculated f(i) where 1 <= i <= n and apply the needed multiplication for each f(i)?
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2017-01-31T23:44:31Z TikityTik: i think i figured it out
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2017-01-31T23:57:24Z pjb: TikityTik: you only need to store 4 last values.
2017-01-31T23:57:43Z TikityTik: yeah, i just had it hit me
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2017-01-31T23:58:00Z TikityTik: first time programming in scheme
2017-01-31T23:58:22Z pjb: You mean you never had to write such a program in any other programming language?
2017-01-31T23:58:26Z pjb: Why would that be?
2017-01-31T23:59:10Z pjb: Would those other programming languages make it too hard?  Or are they so difficult to get right, that you can't think about a simple mathematical problem while implementing it in those languages?
2017-01-31T23:59:19Z pjb: What do you think?