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2016-09-14T13:21:42Z Guest_49848: allah is doing
2016-09-14T13:21:48Z Guest_49848: sun is not doing allah is doing
2016-09-14T13:22:30Z Guest_49848: moon is not doing allah is doing
2016-09-14T13:22:32Z profan: this guy again? lol
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2016-09-14T13:29:28Z wingo: ecraven: you have any luck with the CFLAGS= thing and the guile-git arch package?
2016-09-14T13:30:53Z ecraven: wingo: I didn't check again, not sure whether the maintainer updated it
2016-09-14T13:30:56Z ecraven: I'll check later
2016-09-14T13:31:04Z wingo: coolio
2016-09-14T13:31:24Z ecraven: I've been a bit sidetracked while fooling around with OpenGenera
2016-09-14T13:31:28Z wingo: i was thinking maybe some of your new benchmarks picked up a newer version of that package that re-set the CFLAGS to ""
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2016-09-14T13:31:43Z wingo: anyway :)
2016-09-14T13:31:47Z wingo: opengenera sounds fun :)
2016-09-14T13:32:05Z ecraven: it very much is :)
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2016-09-14T13:51:18Z wasamasa: it makes people go :)
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2016-09-14T17:05:25Z nanoz: hi guyz good morning
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2016-09-14T17:05:52Z nanoz: i was learning about list but i'm getting confused with cons
2016-09-14T17:09:52Z nanoz: as i know list are cons but the last cdr of the con cell is '() , my question is how the last part is represented in cons ? (cons nil nil) ?
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2016-09-14T17:13:42Z zaquest: nanoz, cons is a pair, nil = '(), list is either nil or cons (pair) of some element (head) and another list (tail)
2016-09-14T17:13:53Z zaquest: head = car, tail = cdr
2016-09-14T17:14:46Z zaquest: so the last part in list that is represented as cons is (const last-list-element nil)
2016-09-14T17:14:58Z zaquest: cons*
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2016-09-14T17:33:00Z DeeEff[m]: nanoz: a proper list is just a pair whose last cdr is the empty list [written as '()].
2016-09-14T17:33:26Z DeeEff[m]: you just represent it as (cons my-thing '())
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2016-09-14T17:48:29Z nanoz: zaquest are you saying that last element is represented as cons(nil)
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2016-09-14T17:50:31Z zaquest: nanoz, im not sure what cons(nil) means, but probably no. there're 2 list constructors (if it's applicable to lisp's lists): nil and cons. nil doesnt have any representaion in terms of cons
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2016-09-14T17:52:06Z zaquest: and '() is nil
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2016-09-14T17:58:07Z DeeEff[m]: The last element is just the last element.
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2016-09-14T18:05:07Z ecraven: is there a special reason no seek/tell were deemed necessary for scheme i/o ports?
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2016-09-14T18:09:40Z nanoz: if list are cons than '() <empty list> must be able to represent in cons too
2016-09-14T18:09:59Z nanoz: zaquest
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2016-09-14T18:21:15Z zaquest: nanoz, why?
2016-09-14T18:21:27Z zaquest: and list isnt always cons
2016-09-14T18:21:35Z ecraven: a cons has a car and a cdr, '() does not have any of those
2016-09-14T18:21:42Z zaquest: yes
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2016-09-14T18:23:05Z zaquest: nanoz, as i said list is either 1) empty list '(), or 2) cons that has a list in it's cdr
2016-09-14T18:24:04Z zaquest: nanoz, not any cons is a list and not any list is cons
2016-09-14T18:24:37Z nanoz: i understand " not any cons is a list "
2016-09-14T18:24:47Z nanoz: but not the reverse :!
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2016-09-14T18:26:13Z zaquest: nanoz, the empty list '() is the only list that is not cons
2016-09-14T18:26:26Z nanoz: why not
2016-09-14T18:26:52Z nanoz: it can't be list if not :)
2016-09-14T18:28:52Z zaquest: nanoz, why would it be cons, it supposed to be empty and cons has two fields
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2016-09-14T18:30:57Z nanoz: 2 fields set to empty
2016-09-14T18:31:59Z zaquest: nanoz, to what empty? if your empty is two fields of empty then no computer will have enough memory to store the empty :)
2016-09-14T18:32:59Z zaquest: you say `empty = (cons empty empty)` but then it's `empty = (cons (cons empty empty) (cons empty empty))` etc
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2016-09-14T18:35:07Z nanoz: empty is a token
2016-09-14T18:35:44Z nanoz: but scheme says atom are list too which makes my brain go numb
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2016-09-14T18:37:56Z zaquest: nanoz, i guess you can use arbitrary data as nil, but there's no point in it. why have `(cons nil nil)` if you can have just `nil`, `nil` takes less memory and easier to compare with.
2016-09-14T18:42:14Z nanoz: is nil == null ? zaquest
2016-09-14T18:42:24Z zaquest: nanoz, im not a scheme expert but i believe atoms are not lists. i think atoms are exactly the opposite - everything that is not nil or cons is atom.
2016-09-14T18:43:20Z zaquest: nanoz, yes, scheme doesnt use these symbols in scheme it's '()
2016-09-14T18:48:27Z nanoz: like any untype language which treats empty array as its near equivalent (like 0 , false) ?
2016-09-14T18:48:48Z zaquest: nanoz, also some languages use `null` as a predicate to test if something is well null (without `?` on the end, unlike scheme) :) in that case they use different name for null, like `nil` in CL or `[]` in haskell/sml
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2016-09-14T18:53:18Z nanoz: i don't remember what was the discussion all about "~!
2016-09-14T18:54:32Z zaquest: nanoz, that's a different thing. you can use empty array as false or 0 not because it's the same thing, but because it is implicitly converted to it, usually. there're exceptions though: in CL false is nil and there's no other false
2016-09-14T18:57:02Z ecraven: atoms don't exist in scheme
2016-09-14T18:57:14Z ecraven: they existed in very old lisps
2016-09-14T18:57:47Z ecraven: nanoz: if '() would be a cons with empty car and cdr, then how would you show '(()) (a cons with an empty list as its car, and the empty list as its cdr)?
2016-09-14T18:58:41Z ecraven: and making the empty list, empty array, empty string and whatever else falsy is a really bad idea, imho
2016-09-14T18:58:43Z zaquest: ecraven, (cons (cons nil nil) (cons nil nil))
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2016-09-14T18:59:02Z ecraven: zaquest: but nil = (cons nil nil), so that's kind of recursive :p
2016-09-14T18:59:47Z zaquest: ecraven, that's what i told :) but if nil /= (cons nil nil) but something else it should work, it's pointless though
2016-09-14T19:00:27Z ecraven: it's really simple, list = cons a b | nil
2016-09-14T19:00:44Z zaquest: wrong
2016-09-14T19:00:51Z zaquest: (cons 1 2) is not a list
2016-09-14T19:00:58Z zaquest: you have to specify that b is a list too
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2016-09-14T19:01:25Z ecraven: good point :)
2016-09-14T19:01:32Z ecraven: list = cons x list | nil
2016-09-14T19:02:02Z nanoz: in other words b is null
2016-09-14T19:02:15Z ecraven: nanoz: b is either nil or another cons
2016-09-14T19:02:30Z ecraven: did you look at box diagrams of lists? they make it really obvious how things work
2016-09-14T19:02:32Z nanoz: correct
2016-09-14T19:02:44Z nanoz: box diagram ?
2016-09-14T19:02:58Z nanoz: yea i have seen it
2016-09-14T19:04:06Z nanoz: you must remove "list" from "empty list" , its really confusing term :!
2016-09-14T19:06:29Z nanoz: why not all cons are list ?
2016-09-14T19:06:41Z nanoz: ecraven zaquest
2016-09-14T19:08:19Z zaquest: nanoz, why? empty list is empty list, empty something else is empty something else. empty string is not empty list (at least in scheme)
2016-09-14T19:08:24Z ecraven: nanoz: (cons 1 2) is a pair, not a list
2016-09-14T19:09:01Z ecraven: nanoz: a 'list' is defined as a series of pairs (conses) where the cdr is always either another pair (cons) or the empty list '() (nil)
2016-09-14T19:09:09Z ecraven: that's just the way it is defined
2016-09-14T19:09:23Z ecraven: you could define something different, but that's what everybody who uses Scheme thinks of if you say "list"
2016-09-14T19:09:44Z ecraven: an "improper list" is a series of pairs where the last cdr can be something different than '()
2016-09-14T19:10:12Z ecraven: so (cons 1 (cons 2 '())) is a proper list [(1 2)], but (cons 1 (cons 2 3)) is an improper list [(1 2 . 3)]
2016-09-14T19:10:18Z ecraven: just to add to the confusion :)
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2016-09-14T19:10:42Z nanoz: zaquest since '() == nil
2016-09-14T19:11:36Z zaquest: nanoz, it is just a different name for the same thing. '() is empty list and nil is empty list too.
2016-09-14T19:12:55Z zaquest: nanoz, that's why i said that it's different, there's no implicit conversion like when you use empty array instead of 0. it's the same thing.
2016-09-14T19:13:45Z ecraven: nil doesn't mean anything in Scheme, Scheme only has '() to denote the empty list
2016-09-14T19:13:49Z nanoz: for example a string is a sequence of character with \0 as end of character which is a improper list :!
2016-09-14T19:14:06Z ecraven: you can do (define nil '()) to approximate what lisp has (though it won't be self-evaluating like nil is)
2016-09-14T19:14:13Z ecraven: nanoz: it is not
2016-09-14T19:14:18Z ecraven: nanoz: a string is *not* a list in Scheme
2016-09-14T19:14:43Z nanoz: i just cant believe scheme :!
2016-09-14T19:14:52Z ecraven: nanoz: in many languages a string is not a list
2016-09-14T19:14:58Z ecraven: in almost all, I'd say :)
2016-09-14T19:14:59Z zaquest: nanoz, it might have no \0 at the end too, im not sure here, but it can store it's length instead for example
2016-09-14T19:15:10Z ecraven: zaquest: yea, depends entirely on the implementation
2016-09-14T19:15:29Z ecraven: it might consist of multiple sub-strings, or rope or whatever else
2016-09-14T19:20:04Z nanoz: strings are list
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2016-09-14T19:24:19Z zaquest: nanoz, how have you come to this conclusion?
2016-09-14T19:25:27Z nanoz: good question , string are array , a sequence of characters (some type) so are list sequence of some thing
2016-09-14T19:25:37Z DeeEff[m]: strings are not lists. They are a separate data-structure composed of characters
2016-09-14T19:25:53Z DeeEff[m]: how they are implemented is up to the implementation (CHICKEN, Guile, etc.) specifically
2016-09-14T19:26:08Z DeeEff[m]: you can convert a string to a list using `(string->list "hello, world!")
2016-09-14T19:26:09Z DeeEff[m]: `
2016-09-14T19:26:19Z DeeEff[m]: but strings are not lists per se
2016-09-14T19:27:29Z DeeEff[m]: I think this somehow goes back to the earlier discussion of lists as cons pairs or not
2016-09-14T19:27:46Z DeeEff[m]: nanoz: I think you are trying too hard to fit Scheme into the implementation details of other languages you have used.
2016-09-14T19:28:08Z zaquest: nanoz, there're many sequence types, not all of them are the same and certainly not all sequences are lists
2016-09-14T19:28:36Z DeeEff[m]: Of note: Scheme doesn't have lists at all. We only have a null-list terminator we call '(), and we have pairs. Using pairs and the null-list terminator, we simulate / implement linked lists.
2016-09-14T19:28:52Z DeeEff[m]: of course this is all academic, but seems to be the sort of nuance missing here
2016-09-14T19:29:04Z pierpa: to solve the question once and for all why don't ask your implementation?
2016-09-14T19:29:12Z pierpa: try: (list? "foo")
2016-09-14T19:30:12Z DeeEff[m]: pierpa: that's great unless the person in question is coming from Clojure where the idea of a list is confused with that of the sequence protocol.
2016-09-14T19:30:44Z DeeEff[m]: of course you are correct and list? should never be #t if the argument is an atom (in other words, not a pair).
2016-09-14T19:39:55Z nanoz: i can't believe it returned #f
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2016-09-14T19:41:31Z wasamasa: there is also the null? predicate that checks whether the argument is the empty list
2016-09-14T19:41:42Z wasamasa: so, perhaps it's less confusing to speak of null instead :P
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2016-09-14T19:42:35Z wasamasa: after all, C programmers appear to have no issue with the many forms of null and conveniently forget how weakly typed it is in this regard and more
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2016-09-14T19:57:45Z jcowan: I'm working on a proposal for the R7RS flonum library, and I have some procedures in it that apply to floats in general, not just flonums.  I'm wondering whether to keep them in or put them in a separate library.
2016-09-14T19:58:13Z jcowan: For most schemes, flonums = floats = inexact reals, but Racket has 32-bit inexact reals which are not flonums.
2016-09-14T19:58:36Z jcowan: These are low-level procedures ot pick apart a float in a system-independent way.
2016-09-14T19:58:56Z jcowan: partly based on CL decode-float and friends, but with some new procedures specific to NaNs.
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2016-09-14T20:04:00Z pierpa: jcowan: have you looked also at the bigfloat library in Racket?
2016-09-14T20:04:39Z pierpa: https://docs.racket-lang.org/math/bigfloat.html
2016-09-14T20:06:12Z jcowan: I'm just starting to look at the regular racket flonums and special functions library
2016-09-14T20:06:16Z jcowan: I'll add that to the queue.
2016-09-14T20:06:30Z jcowan: Ah, it's MFPR.
2016-09-14T20:06:36Z pierpa: yes
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2016-09-14T20:31:59Z jcowan: Eh, I'll move them to anotehr library
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2016-09-15T05:21:43Z ecraven: jcowan: has there ever been discussion of adding seek/tell to ports?
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2016-09-15T06:15:13Z webshinra: hey, people
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2016-09-15T06:16:32Z webshinra: I'm a little surprised, it seem to me that assoc-ref isn't in the standardç
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2016-09-15T06:23:08Z ecraven: webshinra: is that (cdr (assoc ...)), but safe?
2016-09-15T06:24:06Z webshinra: ecraven, yes
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2016-09-15T06:27:22Z ecraven: webshinra: that would have been nice to have standardized
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2016-09-15T06:40:19Z webshinra: ecraven, noted,  thank you
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2016-09-15T06:45:30Z ecraven: webshinra: I'd prefer to make the core (r7rs-small) even smaller, but r7rs-large larger :) for r8rs maybe
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2016-09-15T13:54:04Z rmrfchik: what's new in scheme today?
2016-09-15T13:54:35Z jcowan: gonna release some new SRFIs soon, maybe today
2016-09-15T13:55:41Z rmrfchik: what srfi
2016-09-15T13:57:37Z jcowan: Bitwise ops; fixnums; maybe flonums (still working on them)
2016-09-15T13:58:33Z rmrfchik: being curious checked http://srfi.schemers.org/srfi-implementers.html and can't find chez.. why so?
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2016-09-15T14:04:33Z jcowan: That's obsolete.
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2016-09-15T14:07:37Z jcowan: Check https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1XbPdPxvHjbtsM-bnSJO2mhK2uIf-ufst67H3TRrpKhA/pubhtml
2016-09-15T14:07:37Z rudybot: http://teensy.info/CzJ0RChKLA
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2016-09-15T18:07:17Z haraii: hi!
2016-09-15T18:07:58Z ecraven: hey
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2016-09-15T19:20:55Z topaz_: hi. can someone help me out with why this doesn't seem to work? I'm trying to calculate (b^n). It's an exercise in the SICP textbook if that helps.
2016-09-15T19:21:09Z topaz_: ?(define (expt-log b n) 	(cond ((= n 0) 1) 	      ((is-it-even n) (expt-iter 1 n)) 	      (else (expt-iter b (- n 1)))) 	 	(define (square x) (* x x)) 	(define (is-it-even x) (= (mod x 2) 0))     	(define (expt-iter product rem-expt) 		(if (= rem-expt 1) 		    product 		    (expt-iter (* product (square b)) (/ rem-expt 2)) 		) 	) )
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2016-09-15T19:22:23Z topaz_: I'm testing this simply with (expt-log 2 0) and it doesn't run. I'm running the code on repl.it
2016-09-15T19:24:18Z topaz_: Anyone?
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2016-09-15T19:33:19Z qu1j0t3: topaz_: can you use a pastebin so we can see that formatted?
2016-09-15T19:33:30Z pjb: http://sprunge.com
2016-09-15T19:33:48Z pjb: or http://sprunge.us actually.
2016-09-15T19:33:58Z pjb: #!/bin/sh
2016-09-15T19:33:58Z pjb: exec curl -F 'sprunge=<-' http://sprunge.us
2016-09-15T19:33:58Z pjb:  
2016-09-15T19:34:07Z pjb: and then you can sprunge < your-file.lisp
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2016-09-15T19:49:25Z topaz_: ...
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2016-09-15T19:53:48Z C-Keen: or paste.call-cc.org
2016-09-15T19:54:59Z topaz_: Hi. Can someone help me out with a small piece of code here?
2016-09-15T19:55:14Z topaz_: I've put it in pastebin: http://pastebin.com/W15dEQPM
2016-09-15T19:55:44Z topaz_: Please let me know if anyone is looking into it. Thanks so much!
2016-09-15T19:56:39Z ecraven: pjb: downloading over http and then executing doesn't sound like a good idea
2016-09-15T19:58:53Z pjb: topaz_: put the define first.
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2016-09-15T19:59:00Z wasamasa: uh
2016-09-15T19:59:05Z wasamasa: the helper functions should be at top
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2016-09-15T19:59:35Z pjb: ecraven: this sprunge command does the reverse.
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2016-09-15T20:02:02Z topaz_: Thanks pjb and wasamasa
2016-09-15T20:03:04Z topaz_: During execution, since the compiler merely copies the code under definition and substitutes values wherever it could, why does the order of helper functions still matter?
2016-09-15T20:04:25Z pjb:  (begin <expression1> <expression2> ...) The <expression>s are evaluated sequentially from left to right, and the value(s) of the last <expression> is(are) returned.
2016-09-15T20:05:20Z pjb: (lambda <formals> <body>)  …and the expressions in the body of the lambda expression will be evaluated sequentially in the extended environment. The result(s) of the last expression in the body will be returned as the result(s) of the procedure call
2016-09-15T20:06:50Z pjb: The r5rs standard is only 50 pages. Only about 36 need to be read (the rest is index and formal specification).
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2016-09-15T20:07:45Z topaz_: I'll surely go read the whole thing now. Thanks pjb
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2016-09-15T20:11:27Z ecraven: r7rs isn't much worse, maybe read that?
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2016-09-15T20:14:31Z topaz_: what major differences between r5rs and r7rs?
2016-09-15T20:15:30Z ecraven: quite a few, but they are rather similar, I'd say
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2016-09-15T20:16:57Z gwatt: how much of r7rs is implementable as a library on top of r6 or even r5?
2016-09-15T20:19:05Z jcowan: Depends what you mean, on top of.
2016-09-15T20:19:39Z ecraven: gwatt: there are syntactic differences with both, so it isn't trivial
2016-09-15T20:19:46Z jcowan: You'd need a translator from R7RS library language to R6RS library language, or a more intimate front end to R5RS
2016-09-15T20:19:52Z ecraven: but many things have stayed the same
2016-09-15T20:19:58Z gwatt: I mean strictly as functions or macros
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2016-09-15T20:20:16Z ecraven: well, case sensitivity is hard to implement without a completely new reader :-/
2016-09-15T20:20:23Z gwatt: fair
2016-09-15T20:20:33Z jcowan: Yes, though many R5RS systems are already case sensitive.
2016-09-15T20:21:02Z jcowan: The R7RS-small doc contains a list of incompatibilities and extensions.
2016-09-15T20:21:20Z gwatt should probably just read the specs...
2016-09-15T20:21:31Z jcowan: pp. 77-79 or so
2016-09-15T20:22:14Z jcowan: It's 90 pages, about 1/3 "langauge", 1/3 "libraries", and 1/3 "formal stuff, changelog, index"
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2016-09-15T20:26:49Z ecraven: how do I convert the byte representation of a double float into a double float in MIT/GNU Scheme?
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2016-09-15T21:43:13Z ecraven: how do I reverse the bits in a byte? so that the leftmost bit becomes the rightmost?
2016-09-15T21:43:18Z ecraven: (not rotate, but mirror)
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2016-09-15T21:59:31Z qu1j0t3: laboriously
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2016-09-15T21:59:50Z qu1j0t3: grab "Matters Computational" or "Hacker's Delight" and see if they have some abstruse method
2016-09-15T22:00:29Z qu1j0t3: oh, you mean in Scheme
2016-09-15T22:00:34Z qu1j0t3: confusing to have you in more than one channel :)
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2016-09-16T02:18:42Z evhan: Wow, started writing augeas bindings, didn't even think to check for existing ones.
2016-09-16T02:19:07Z evhan: Ah, wrong channel. /me shows himself out.
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2016-09-16T10:14:41Z ecraven: does anyone know how to convert a byte representation of a double into an actual double on MIT/GNU Scheme?
2016-09-16T10:14:50Z ecraven: something simpler than actually parsing the bits
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2016-09-16T10:29:51Z C-Keen: ecraven: use bytevectors? https://www.gnu.org/software/guile/manual/html_node/Bytevectors-as-Floats.html#Bytevectors-as-Floats
2016-09-16T10:29:52Z rudybot: http://teensy.info/VRK7ggwhRj
2016-09-16T10:30:22Z ecraven: C-Keen: if MIT/GNU Scheme had them..
2016-09-16T10:30:48Z ecraven: but I've hacked a quick module with the ffi, parse-float and parse-double
2016-09-16T10:30:58Z ecraven: seems to work well enough
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2016-09-16T10:39:12Z C-Keen: ecraven: oh sorry, I completely misread MIT/GNU Scheme, my apologies
2016-09-16T10:39:28Z ecraven: C-Keen: no problem at all
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2016-09-16T18:27:33Z jcowan: hey ho
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2016-09-16T18:34:37Z jcowan: BitwiseCowan and FixnumsCowan are ready for review
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2016-09-16T19:32:19Z qu1j0t3: you had TWINS?!
2016-09-16T19:32:44Z jcowan: FlonumsCowan isn't far behind, but needs some formatting work
2016-09-16T19:32:51Z jcowan: all of them are somewhat interdependent
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2016-09-17T16:48:21Z MorrisSzyslak: hi, what is the alternative to case-lambda ? On my system (debian Wheezy) i have Scheme48 1.9.2 and this expression (define f (case-lambda (()(+ 2 2))((x)(+ x x)))) return an error : "syntax-violation: invalid expression [expand]". But the same expression work with guile. I want to make function which take variable argument in scsh. thx
2016-09-17T16:49:43Z wasamasa: you can (define f (lambda x ...)), then destructure x as needed
2016-09-17T16:51:16Z wasamasa: (define f (lambda x (if (null? x) (+ 2 2) (* 2 (car x)))))
2016-09-17T16:51:26Z MorrisSzyslak: ok thx wasama, I try this.
2016-09-17T16:51:38Z wasamasa: and please use the tab key for nicknames :>
2016-09-17T16:52:16Z MorrisSzyslak: oh sory
2016-09-17T16:52:54Z MorrisSzyslak: wasamasa thx
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2016-09-17T16:58:50Z MorrisSzyslak: what is strange is this script https://github.com/ejmr/update-local-software/blob/master/update-local-software supposed to work with scsh and using cass-lambda
2016-09-17T16:58:50Z rudybot: http://teensy.info/Cu6oMKqWsv
2016-09-17T16:59:17Z wasamasa: chances are case-lambda originates from one of the imported srfis
2016-09-17T16:59:42Z wasamasa: http://srfi.schemers.org/srfi-16/srfi-16.html
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2016-09-17T17:04:41Z MorrisSzyslak: yes wasamasa I realized that in the same time I share the link. I must specify -o srfi16 on command line, I am a beginner with scheme48 I used guile to date
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2016-09-17T21:41:46Z qu1j0t3:    http://twitter.com/ReinH/status/777261006019960832
2016-09-17T21:41:48Z qu1j0t3:    "Every Scheme is beautiful."   @andywingo #strangeloop
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2016-09-18T13:45:07Z lritter: continuation passing style: given a function that takes a continuation argument `cont`, am I right to assume that the function's environment is unreachable once `cont` has been called?
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2016-09-18T13:46:23Z lritter: only way to get back in, it seems, would be if the continuation itself is called with a closure argument that has been constructed in that environment
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2016-09-18T13:52:39Z ggole: Are you asking if invoking a continuation is essentially a tail call?
2016-09-18T13:52:45Z ggole: (It should be.)
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2016-09-18T14:13:45Z lritter: ggole, yeah, i guess that's what i'm asking.
2016-09-18T14:14:11Z lritter: ;)
2016-09-18T14:14:37Z lritter: i'm trying to do type inference on a program in CPS form
2016-09-18T14:15:16Z ggole: Do you have syntactically distinct continuations and functions? If so, it should be pretty easy.
2016-09-18T14:15:32Z ggole: eg, many SML implementations have an 'a cont type.
2016-09-18T14:15:42Z lritter: the program is in CFF form, which is an intermediate representation
2016-09-18T14:16:12Z lritter: there are first-order and second order continuations
2016-09-18T14:16:20Z ggole: Hmm.
2016-09-18T14:16:40Z lritter: it's part of implementing this paper http://compilers.cs.uni-saarland.de/papers/lkh15_cgo.pdf
2016-09-18T14:17:07Z ggole: Oh, I've seen this paper
2016-09-18T14:17:13Z lritter: their CFF is already typed when they do the SSA translation
2016-09-18T14:17:16Z lritter: but mine isn't
2016-09-18T14:17:37Z lritter: so i have to do a partial evaluation pass, inline constants, dissolve branches and fill in types
2016-09-18T14:17:49Z lritter: as types can be first-order
2016-09-18T14:18:31Z lritter: also, i want to do fully polymorphic invocations, which complicates the issue
2016-09-18T14:19:21Z lritter: i guess the first thing i'm wondering is: can this be done at all
2016-09-18T14:19:24Z ggole: Sec, reading the paper (again)
2016-09-18T14:19:51Z lritter: i can also show you a screenshot of a small factorial program in CFF form https://twitter.com/paniq/status/777297687200796672
2016-09-18T14:19:58Z lritter: i think it's pretty clear how it works
2016-09-18T14:21:17Z ggole: The paper presents the IR as having arguments annotated with types, which should be enough to type check the program (even if conts are "first class")
2016-09-18T14:21:41Z lritter: yep, but my types are all "any" when the IR is built
2016-09-18T14:22:30Z ggole: Wouldn't that mean that a cont with one argument could be given the type, uh, something like 'cont (any)'?
2016-09-18T14:22:31Z lritter: the way i see it i need to do a kind of "flood-fill" of propagating types
2016-09-18T14:22:51Z lritter: but also, when a cont is typed, it needs to do backwards propagation.
2016-09-18T14:23:10Z lritter: (equivalent to figuring out the return type of a function)
2016-09-18T14:23:23Z ggole: I think I see. You want to do the equivalent of HM inference on this IR.
2016-09-18T14:23:44Z lritter: i suppose. i can't read HM tbh. ;-)
2016-09-18T14:23:57Z ggole: There are some potential difficulties with that.
2016-09-18T14:24:09Z lritter: i read in a paper that it's formally impossible
2016-09-18T14:24:20Z lritter: but i was wondering if it would work with restrictions.
2016-09-18T14:24:50Z ggole: One of the restrictions in HM inference is that polymorphism of let-rec bound variables is suppressed within the bindings themselves (they remain polymorphic in the let-rec body).
2016-09-18T14:24:52Z lritter: that = type inference of arbitrary untyped lambdas
2016-09-18T14:25:41Z lritter: ggole, that effectively means their type is immutable once declared?
2016-09-18T14:25:50Z ggole: Since this IR ditches scope entirely, I don't see where you can put the boundary.
2016-09-18T14:26:14Z lritter: every variable in the CFF is equivalent to let-rec bound
2016-09-18T14:26:25Z ggole: No, it means that some programs that would type check with annotations won't type check with inference.
2016-09-18T14:26:58Z ggole: Do you know OCaml?
2016-09-18T14:27:04Z lritter: very little.
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2016-09-18T14:27:26Z ggole: An example of a program that doesn't type check without annotations is let rec id x = x and f = id 1, id 'c' in ()
2016-09-18T14:27:45Z ggole: The problem here is that id is used polymorphically within the let-rec bindings
2016-09-18T14:28:23Z lritter: darn infix operators
2016-09-18T14:28:26Z lritter: i can't read this at all
2016-09-18T14:28:29Z ggole: (This example can be type checked with a more sophisticated algorithm, actually, but there are examples which cannot.)
2016-09-18T14:29:28Z ggole: Hmm, are all the recursive things conts in the IR?
2016-09-18T14:29:41Z lritter: yes
2016-09-18T14:29:44Z ggole: You can probably assign types to those as you build it.
2016-09-18T14:30:05Z lritter: for continuations, i can always tag them as fn(any) etc
2016-09-18T14:30:20Z ggole: That might be enough.
2016-09-18T14:30:39Z lritter: that would help already.
2016-09-18T14:31:02Z lritter: ggole, but a program can always figure out when it can't infer type, right?
2016-09-18T14:31:43Z ggole: Yeah, the usual algorithms either assign types to everything or fail.
2016-09-18T14:32:01Z lritter: that's good enough, i think.
2016-09-18T14:32:12Z ggole: Since you can fall back on any?
2016-09-18T14:32:33Z lritter: ggole, 'any' must completely disappear before CFF is translated to LLVM IR
2016-09-18T14:32:37Z lritter: so that's an error
2016-09-18T14:32:48Z lritter: in my design the user has means to annotate types more explicitly
2016-09-18T14:32:54Z ggole: I see.
2016-09-18T14:33:03Z lritter: but it's more a opt-in process.
2016-09-18T14:33:29Z lritter: (compared to e.g. C++ where you use `auto` to opt-out)
2016-09-18T14:33:51Z ggole: That sounds a lot like HM.
2016-09-18T14:34:06Z lritter: it probably is; i have no formal education
2016-09-18T14:34:14Z lritter: come more from the machine tribe ;)
2016-09-18T14:34:54Z ggole: Right. There are various resources around if you want to look into how things like ML are type checked (mostly) without annotations.
2016-09-18T14:35:30Z lritter: i'm pretty good at figuring things out on my own, i just didn't want to get started in case there was no solution
2016-09-18T14:35:52Z ggole: Doing that in a graphical IR that is intended for optimisation is a little unusual, usually there's an AST of some kind before then.
2016-09-18T14:36:02Z lritter: ggole, i go straight from s-expr to IR
2016-09-18T14:36:17Z lritter: it's an attempt to be minimalist
2016-09-18T14:36:30Z lritter: the compiler currently fits into 6k lines of C++
2016-09-18T14:36:38Z lritter: single file ;)
2016-09-18T14:36:53Z lritter: the tougher nut to crack is how to deal with continuations that are applied with different types.
2016-09-18T14:36:57Z ggole: Building IR directly is a nice idea, avoids having to write printers and etc for another form
2016-09-18T14:37:29Z lritter: i had a more AST-like IL before, but i figured this is better.
2016-09-18T14:37:52Z ggole: Type checking and desugaring on something that is a long way from the source language might be a bit more of a challenge though.
2016-09-18T14:37:59Z lritter: eliminating closures is what i'm after
2016-09-18T14:38:19Z lritter: ggole, yeah, but the source language is effectively minimal scheme.
2016-09-18T14:38:30Z lritter: the IL inherits the type system i wrote for it though
2016-09-18T14:38:35Z lritter: that is the most important part
2016-09-18T14:38:43Z ggole: Do you mean closure conversion, or the lambda mangling thing mentioned in the paper?
2016-09-18T14:39:05Z lritter: lambda mangling
2016-09-18T14:40:24Z lritter: since the IL is the only representation, I'm also going to permit quoting the IL
2016-09-18T14:40:36Z lritter: it's a multi-stage compiler
2016-09-18T14:40:51Z ggole: What do you mean, quoting?
2016-09-18T14:41:03Z ggole: Providing an IR interface at the language level?
2016-09-18T14:41:07Z lritter: yep
2016-09-18T14:41:24Z ggole: I've seen suggestions along these lines before, it always seemed like a bit of a risky choice
2016-09-18T14:41:27Z lritter: the language can pseudoquote expressions to access them as IL continuation blocks
2016-09-18T14:41:37Z ggole: Since if you decide that you hate your IL, you are now in a sticky situation
2016-09-18T14:42:03Z ggole: The advantage is that you can write low-level code directly in your IL, which can mean some fun and effective performance hacking
2016-09-18T14:42:16Z lritter: ggole, of all IL-likes I did so far, the CFF is my favorite
2016-09-18T14:42:21Z ggole: Maybe you could even write your GC in it - Appel suggested that
2016-09-18T14:42:45Z lritter: multi-stage compiling:
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2016-09-18T14:42:58Z lritter: the idea is that in the first pass it evaluates and finalizes what can be done at that stage, and generates only code for what can not be evaluated right now
2016-09-18T14:43:05Z lritter: then the remaining code is executed
2016-09-18T14:43:16Z lritter: which may or may not generate new code for subsequent passes.
2016-09-18T14:43:49Z lritter: all this happens explicitly
2016-09-18T14:43:50Z ggole: Oh, partial evaluation
2016-09-18T14:44:08Z lritter: so it's not JIT, because the user controls exactly what is generated
2016-09-18T14:44:31Z lritter: and it's not lazy either, unless the user builds an abstraction for that behavior.
2016-09-18T14:44:50Z ggole: You keep a compiler around at runtime to glue the quotes together into runnable code?
2016-09-18T14:44:53Z lritter: yep
2016-09-18T14:45:01Z lritter: LLVM is always online
2016-09-18T14:45:13Z ggole: Right, there are some other efforts a bit like this.
2016-09-18T14:45:21Z lritter: I used Terra before, and built my own scheme on top of that
2016-09-18T14:45:36Z lritter: but decided it's time to try my hand at this since there were a few design issues.
2016-09-18T14:46:09Z lritter: I didn't agree with some of the data model choices and there were C interop issues, both due to the dependence on Lua
2016-09-18T14:46:17Z ggole: Type checking might become a bit fun.
2016-09-18T14:47:10Z lritter: it will be interesting
2016-09-18T14:47:20Z lritter: i had a working prototype before with a SSA based IL
2016-09-18T14:47:40Z lritter: but when it came to dealing with closures i had too many issues with its complexity
2016-09-18T14:47:53Z lritter: CFF is the most minimal and effective representation i've seen so far
2016-09-18T14:48:02Z lritter: a place where lambda and the machine meet :)
2016-09-18T14:48:12Z ecraven: what's cff?
2016-09-18T14:48:19Z lritter: the form they introduce in the paper
2016-09-18T14:48:28Z lritter: http://compilers.cs.uni-saarland.de/papers/lkh15_cgo.pdf
2016-09-18T14:48:38Z ecraven: thanks
2016-09-18T14:48:42Z ecraven: that sounds interesting
2016-09-18T14:49:17Z ggole: Graph IRs are nice, I've played with a few (for first-order languages)
2016-09-18T14:49:42Z ggole: Printing them effectively for debugging is a bit painful.
2016-09-18T14:49:45Z ecraven: might be fun to see how nanopass plays with that :)
2016-09-18T14:49:53Z lritter: you've seen my output, ggole, looked fine no? ;)
2016-09-18T14:50:04Z lritter: i'll allow string annotations for names later
2016-09-18T14:50:49Z lritter: one thing that still bothers me, because i have no approach for it, is templating
2016-09-18T14:51:10Z lritter: you call the same continuation with different types, so you need to specialize
2016-09-18T14:51:14Z lritter: i.e. make copies
2016-09-18T14:51:34Z ggole: Well, you need to decide on an approach to polymorphism
2016-09-18T14:52:00Z lritter: but each invocation creates a closure, so a small environment, and all continuations depending on it need to be coped to
2016-09-18T14:52:03Z lritter: copied
2016-09-18T14:52:19Z ggole: Monomorphising everything will work, and should play nice with LLVM, but you need to transport definitions everywhere and might get code size problems
2016-09-18T14:52:47Z ggole: And you also have the difficulty of compiling polymorphic recursion or rank-N polymorphism (if you want to support those)
2016-09-18T14:52:50Z lritter: that is the tough thing, right
2016-09-18T14:52:58Z lritter: figuring out which continuations need not be duplicated.
2016-09-18T14:53:15Z lritter: and how to merge different continuations at end of scope
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2016-09-18T14:53:53Z lritter: ggole, regarding any solving that involves recursions, i've decided to treat this like a stack overflow problem
2016-09-18T14:54:03Z lritter: i.e. putting a cap on reentrance
2016-09-18T14:55:06Z ggole: Won't that run into trouble with things like polymorphic list functions?
2016-09-18T14:55:19Z lritter: ggole, the cap only exists at compile time
2016-09-18T14:55:51Z lritter: i assume it would attempt to generate code that does the rest of the work in the next stage
2016-09-18T14:56:06Z ggole: I don't think we're talking about the same thing here.
2016-09-18T14:56:11Z lritter: perhaps not ;)
2016-09-18T14:56:31Z lritter: ggole, could you give an example for what you mean?
2016-09-18T15:00:38Z lritter: -for+of
2016-09-18T15:00:43Z lritter: what is up with my english today.
2016-09-18T15:01:03Z ggole: Never mind, I don't think I was thinking about 'involving recursions' the right way
2016-09-18T15:02:13Z lritter: i keep wondering if i should just roll like Terra and do a interpreter-invokes-typechecked-compiler-invokes-interpreter kind of thing.
2016-09-18T15:02:28Z lritter: it irks me that there is an implicit interpreter hidden in the compiler
2016-09-18T15:02:52Z lritter: if that one loops forever, it's an error happening in something that is not acknowledged as an explicit stage
2016-09-18T15:02:55Z ggole: Compilation and interpretation are pretty closely related.
2016-09-18T15:03:08Z lritter: but if you have an explicit interpreter, and that one loops forever: user error.
2016-09-18T15:04:21Z ggole: Hmm. Compilers shouldn't infloop.
2016-09-18T15:04:32Z ggole: Unless you have arbitrary computation at the type level or something.
2016-09-18T15:04:37Z lritter: i have
2016-09-18T15:04:42Z ggole: Well, there you go.
2016-09-18T15:04:47Z lritter: selection of a type depends on conditions
2016-09-18T15:05:13Z lritter: and those conditions can be computed using lambdas.
2016-09-18T15:06:01Z ggole: You'll need to write a type level debugger. :)
2016-09-18T15:06:05Z lritter: ggole, it's just... a little sad because i started this whole exercise with trying to prove that a solution like Terra doesn't need an interpreted stage and could skip right to interpretation
2016-09-18T15:06:09Z ggole: (And maybe a compiler if it doesn't run fast enough.)
2016-09-18T15:06:24Z lritter: err
2016-09-18T15:06:27Z lritter: compilation!
2016-09-18T15:06:30Z ggole: Half-joking there.
2016-09-18T15:06:57Z lritter: you are half-right; C++ technically needs to compile its template solver ;)
2016-09-18T15:07:20Z lritter: it would certainly benefit from a JIT :>
2016-09-18T15:07:21Z ggole: I've heard suggestions that JIT compilation be used to speed the 'running' of template code.
2016-09-18T15:07:33Z ggole: Seems like a bug factory to me.
2016-09-18T15:07:42Z lritter: yep.
2016-09-18T15:08:18Z lritter: so, if i wanted to get rid of the explicit interpreter stage, i'd have to put a cap on the depth of conditional checks to resolve types
2016-09-18T15:08:42Z lritter: e.g. no function applications
2016-09-18T15:08:54Z lritter: or no loops whatsoever
2016-09-18T15:09:24Z lritter: which would not be a problem, since we're multi-stage
2016-09-18T15:09:41Z lritter: if your type resolve is too complex, do it in the next stage
2016-09-18T15:11:51Z lritter: ggole, you may wonder about the intended use for all this; it's procedural game programming
2016-09-18T15:12:47Z lritter: for that use case it's imperative that performance can be reasoned about, so there can be no JIT or GC in the game loop
2016-09-18T15:13:04Z ggole: Hmm, starting with scheme is an interesting choice in that context.
2016-09-18T15:13:17Z lritter: ggole, I started with other things.
2016-09-18T15:13:47Z lritter: I discovered Scheme when I searched for a semantic model for graph-based visual programming
2016-09-18T15:14:15Z lritter: and, along with it, the beauty of its minimalism and its expressivity
2016-09-18T15:14:25Z ggole: Ah, you poor sod.
2016-09-18T15:14:29Z lritter: :P
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2016-09-18T15:14:49Z lritter: i developed my own scheme based dialect on top of Terra and used it for a year
2016-09-18T15:15:05Z lritter: after i got rid of parentheses, i was unbelievably happy :)
2016-09-18T15:15:16Z ggole: Sacrilege!
2016-09-18T15:15:33Z wasamasa: let's just invent m-expression syntax for scheme
2016-09-18T15:15:38Z ggole: (I don't think I get to say that now that I'm mostly an ML programmer, though.)
2016-09-18T15:15:40Z lritter: ggole, http://bangra.readthedocs.io/en/latest/dataformat.html
2016-09-18T15:15:46Z lritter: this is how it works
2016-09-18T15:15:49Z qu1j0t3: ggole: I was about to say. Why not just use ML...
2016-09-18T15:15:59Z lritter: i tried to do a minimalist solution that did the idea justice
2016-09-18T15:16:25Z lritter: ignore the highlighting ;)
2016-09-18T15:17:07Z wasamasa: "Nudists might however want to use the list separator ; (semicolon) which forces the line to be wrapped in a list and therefore has the same effect:"
2016-09-18T15:17:13Z wasamasa: clearly you've watched too much anime
2016-09-18T15:17:18Z lritter: ;)
2016-09-18T15:17:26Z lritter: or not enough.
2016-09-18T15:17:33Z wasamasa: rudybot: nudists and painters?
2016-09-18T15:17:34Z rudybot: wasamasa: so what''s happening with the gnu nudists. any updates on that
2016-09-18T15:18:05Z lritter: ggole, also, the syntactic design borrows way more from modern languages than Scheme; It follows more the school of Python, Lua, Javascript, C
2016-09-18T15:18:19Z qu1j0t3: lritter: have you looked into SML, Ocaml, Haskell, etc?
2016-09-18T15:18:41Z lritter: qu1j0t3, i have an imperative language background and intend to keep it that way
2016-09-18T15:18:56Z qu1j0t3: scheme's an odd choice then?
2016-09-18T15:18:59Z lritter: why?
2016-09-18T15:19:03Z lritter: scheme is not a functional language :)
2016-09-18T15:19:06Z qu1j0t3: oh!
2016-09-18T15:19:23Z lritter: it's got imperative flow, mutable variables
2016-09-18T15:19:33Z qu1j0t3: which you don't have to use...
2016-09-18T15:19:41Z lritter: but i do! i do! *evil laughter*
2016-09-18T15:19:53Z qu1j0t3 nods... well whatever floats your boat :)
2016-09-18T15:20:33Z lritter: qu1j0t3, in dsp / game / realtime programming, reasoning about performance is ultimately more important than functional elegance
2016-09-18T15:20:50Z lritter: even though it's not a bad idea to flirt with lambda calculus where applicable
2016-09-18T15:20:56Z qu1j0t3: there's no rule that functional languages lack performance. Ocaml and Haskell are very efficient
2016-09-18T15:21:06Z lritter: not as efficient as handwritten C.
2016-09-18T15:21:11Z qu1j0t3: so they say...
2016-09-18T15:21:23Z qu1j0t3: there are optimisations they can do that C can't, of course
2016-09-18T15:21:45Z qu1j0t3: Haskell has benchmarked better than C on some tasks
2016-09-18T15:21:50Z qu1j0t3: i don't find this very surprising
2016-09-18T15:22:07Z qu1j0t3: but, whatever works for you
2016-09-18T15:22:15Z lritter: yeah but... well, try to write a modern 3D game with a fast streamlined pipeline and you'll see.
2016-09-18T15:22:28Z qu1j0t3: and yet you don't use C.
2016-09-18T15:22:35Z lritter: because it's cumbersome to write.
2016-09-18T15:22:39Z qu1j0t3: no shit!
2016-09-18T15:22:42Z lritter: :)
2016-09-18T15:22:43Z qu1j0t3: we certainly agree there.
2016-09-18T15:22:56Z lritter: and C++ is pretty much a crazy mess
2016-09-18T15:23:00Z qu1j0t3 nods
2016-09-18T15:23:07Z lritter: and Rust is too much like C++
2016-09-18T15:23:18Z lritter: and D is too much like C++
2016-09-18T15:25:08Z lritter: so a Scheme-like looks perfect as the basis for a meta-programmed yet largely imperative multi-stage system
2016-09-18T15:25:32Z lritter: its principles are simple enough that you can get an interpreter going within a bunch of hours
2016-09-18T15:25:53Z lritter: which then can be used to control a compiler
2016-09-18T15:26:10Z lritter: like LLVM, to generate inspectable machine code
2016-09-18T15:26:46Z lritter: that has intended caching behavior, manual memory management
2016-09-18T15:26:56Z lritter: explicitly layouted data structures
2016-09-18T15:27:27Z lritter: and yet you can build generics on top of that in great profusion
2016-09-18T15:28:26Z lritter: because of the s-expr structure, you have two avenues of creating generics: either as untyped macros, which in many cases is often already sufficient,
2016-09-18T15:29:00Z lritter: or as pseudoquoting within typed macros as part of the AST->IR code generator
2016-09-18T15:30:34Z lritter: and that maximizes both expressivity and control.
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2016-09-18T15:32:09Z lritter: qu1j0t3, anyway, isn't this the Scheme channel? why are you advocating other languages? ;)
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2016-09-18T15:33:18Z wasamasa: the scheme channel is not about language advocacy
2016-09-18T15:33:28Z lritter: i hoped not
2016-09-18T15:33:45Z lritter: which is why i'm surprised
2016-09-18T15:34:19Z lritter: i thought scheme is sort of a symbol for the principles of structure and interpretation of computer programs™
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2016-09-18T15:38:30Z wasamasa: lol
2016-09-18T15:39:02Z wasamasa: scheme is merely a vehicle for sicp
2016-09-18T15:39:09Z wasamasa: haven't you read it?
2016-09-18T15:43:23Z lritter: wasamasa, i thought that's what i just said ;)
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2016-09-18T15:43:52Z wasamasa: nope
2016-09-18T15:44:15Z lritter: wasamasa, you didn't spot my clever SICP reference?
2016-09-18T15:44:25Z lritter: referring to it by the *full title*
2016-09-18T15:44:38Z wasamasa: I can only spot intentional obtuseness
2016-09-18T15:45:00Z lritter: sure, let's pretend it is intentional, at least that way i look smart ;)
2016-09-18T15:45:31Z lritter: anyway
2016-09-18T15:45:56Z lritter: ggole, okay. then i'll try my luck with the type inference pass now.
2016-09-18T15:46:03Z lritter: ggole, thanks for the advice.
2016-09-18T15:46:59Z ggole: My pleasure, have fun.
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2016-09-19T00:51:15Z pierpa: which was the language that "(There is at least one (fortunately today defunct) programming language that provides addition, subtraction, and division, with multiplication notably absent, being expressible as division.)"?
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2016-09-19T00:55:40Z pierpa: is there a bot for leaving messages to absent people in this channel?
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2016-09-19T01:42:07Z mejja: rudybot: Long time no c++
2016-09-19T01:42:08Z rudybot: mejja: I tried it once. After a long time searching, I found a location where various keybinds were listed. I tried removing them, but no success. I suspect they are hardcode, but I don't know.
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2016-09-19T01:56:00Z qu1j0t3: pierpa: i think ecraven was interrogating Riastradh about it a few weeks ago.
2016-09-19T01:59:04Z pierpa: qu1j0t3: aha! ty
2016-09-19T01:59:32Z qu1j0t3: pierpa: not much came out of it, but ecraven might have scrollback
2016-09-19T01:59:53Z pierpa: but at least now I know that there isn't one :)
2016-09-19T02:00:33Z pierpa: ah, wait, you mean the language?
2016-09-19T02:00:36Z pierpa: ok
2016-09-19T02:03:54Z qu1j0t3: pierpa: there was one but that's apparently as far as it goes. Anyway if ecraven doesn't have the conversation you could try bothering Riastradh but it's probably heading towards an FAQ for some reason
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2016-09-19T02:05:39Z pierpa: qu1j0t3: ok. will do
2016-09-19T02:06:15Z pierpa: the reason is that it's mentioned in srfi-141
2016-09-19T02:06:55Z qu1j0t3: maybe that should be deleted
2016-09-19T02:07:12Z pierpa: yeah :)
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2016-09-19T13:11:14Z nilof: R7RS defined a small and a large version of scheme?
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2016-09-19T13:17:37Z ecraven: nilof: yes, though large is not finished yet
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2016-09-19T13:23:38Z nilof: Did the small version remove anything that was present in previous standards
2016-09-19T13:23:56Z ecraven: nilof: not a lot.. read it, at the end there's a section on incompatible changes
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2016-09-19T14:36:31Z pflanze: Hi. Do you have a recommendation for a Scheme s-expr parser written in Scheme that can also retain comments (and perhaps whitespace)?
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2016-09-19T14:38:31Z pflanze: Failing that, a well-designed Scheme s-expr parser written in Scheme (that hence should be easy to extend)?
2016-09-19T14:39:02Z pflanze: (i.e. which I can modify to retain the comments and whitespace)
2016-09-19T14:39:23Z wasamasa: I can only imagine what you're going to use that for
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2016-09-19T14:41:10Z pflanze: Well, to translate code from evil Scheme to some other evil language, I think.
2016-09-19T14:41:27Z wasamasa: hm, I thought the other way around
2016-09-19T14:41:37Z wasamasa: like one of those whitespace-sensitive lisp dialects :D
2016-09-19T14:42:22Z ecraven: pflanze: can you change the comment format?
2016-09-19T14:42:29Z pflanze: Ah, didn't know those existed, might be interesting. Or is Python an acceptable lisp, perhaps..
2016-09-19T14:42:30Z ecraven: introduce a macro (comment ...) and treat that somehow?
2016-09-19T14:42:41Z wasamasa: pflanze: there's at least three srfis for them
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2016-09-19T14:43:14Z pflanze: ecraven, nah, that would be really evil to write.
2016-09-19T14:44:08Z pflanze: But yeah if you wanted full control about what code will be generated that may be the way to go.
2016-09-19T14:45:02Z pflanze: Also I'd like to finally write a Scheme compiler so just give me the best reader implementation there is :)
2016-09-19T14:46:29Z pflanze: Failing that, a nicely designed parser combinator library.
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2016-09-19T14:49:13Z wasamasa: it's not like lisp readers are hard to write
2016-09-19T14:50:24Z pflanze: I just don't feel like it so much. Parsers yes, but all the details of the number format?
2016-09-19T14:52:31Z wasamasa looks at GRASS just to discover it cheats on that one
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2016-09-20T09:48:48Z ovenpasta: Hi, I noticed in srfi-41 there is port->stream, but it uses read-char so it does not work with binary streams... shouldn't be useful to have binary-port->stream that uses get-u8?
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2016-09-20T19:52:37Z ecraven: is there any scheme compiler that will optimize (filter even? (map car some-list)) not to use an intermediate list?
2016-09-20T19:53:40Z profan: ecraven: stalin perhaps? lol
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2016-09-20T19:55:12Z C-Keen: into filter-map?
2016-09-20T19:55:29Z jcowan: You could use generators explicitly.
2016-09-20T19:55:29Z C-Keen: or some sort of fold?
2016-09-20T19:56:25Z C-Keen: it seems a very special case to me
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2016-09-20T20:00:01Z wasamasa wonders whether that's what transducers were invented for
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2016-09-20T20:08:54Z qu1j0t3: transducers as in ... Clojure?
2016-09-20T20:16:11Z wasamasa: yes
2016-09-20T20:16:36Z wasamasa: from what I've read, their purpose is to avoid intermediate lazy sequences
2016-09-20T20:18:40Z wasamasa: now, whether a compiler could do that kind of thing automatically is another question
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2016-09-20T20:30:04Z pflanze: Are there any other systems than S48 with parametrized modules?
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2016-09-20T21:07:12Z wingo: pflanze: racket has support for them but i don't know much more than that
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2016-09-20T22:12:36Z DerGuteMoritz: wasamasa: yeah, transducers can be used for this and I guess that compilers could be smart enough to automatically optimize that way. AFAIK another name for the idea is "stream fusion".
2016-09-20T22:12:51Z wasamasa: oh, I've heard of that one
2016-09-20T22:13:10Z jcowan: CL has a series package that does this for you, but not with arbitrary Lisp code; you have to write in series language.
2016-09-20T22:15:03Z DerGuteMoritz: stream fusion only refers to that particular optimization strategy, though, I think. transducers provide more than that and are first-class objects (well, functions) which can be used for different things
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2016-09-20T22:17:57Z wasamasa: I can already imagine how the optimizer would work
2016-09-20T22:18:40Z wasamasa: 1. look for a threading macro, 2. ensure it's more than two threading steps, 3. ensure that all of them are transducable
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2016-09-20T22:21:13Z DerGuteMoritz: nah you would expand the thread macro first and to the optimization based on the nestiness
2016-09-20T22:21:24Z DerGuteMoritz: no need to include knowledge of all threading macros in the optimizer
2016-09-20T22:21:29Z DerGuteMoritz: occam's razor!
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2016-09-21T05:35:55Z ecraven: C-Keen: I do that all the time, map (filter  or filter (map
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2016-09-21T05:37:12Z ecraven: is there a reason why srfi-144 contains all kinds of fractions of pi, but not fl-2-pi?
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2016-09-21T06:23:20Z C-Keen: ecraven: maybe srfi-1's filter-map is the thing you want?
2016-09-21T06:24:53Z ecraven: C-Keen: the point is, why should I need to do this if the compiler can do it better and more reliably?
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2016-09-21T06:48:38Z ecraven: does any scheme have anything like r7rs or srfi coverage tests?
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2016-09-21T11:09:32Z ecraven: why is there no vector=?
2016-09-21T11:18:55Z ijp: why should there be one?
2016-09-21T11:21:51Z ecraven: there's an x=? for almost everything else :)
2016-09-21T11:22:53Z ijp: that is not a good reason
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2016-09-21T11:29:16Z ecraven: does r7rs mandate that literal vectors must be quoted?
2016-09-21T11:30:15Z ecraven: foof: is it possible that chibi's vector-for-each with multiple vectors traverses in reverse order (from last to first)?
2016-09-21T11:30:48Z ecraven: ah, sorry, my fault!
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2016-09-21T11:31:24Z ecraven: chibi is really nice as an r7rs baseline, so far everything is implemented and works!
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2016-09-21T12:06:24Z ecraven: does anyone know how I can make larceny exit on error, instead of entering the debugger?
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2016-09-21T13:37:10Z ecraven: not sure if this is useful, but here it is: https://github.com/ecraven/r7rs-coverage
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2016-09-21T15:14:52Z DeeEff[m]: ecraven: regarding `vector=?` see http://api.call-cc.org/doc/srfi-133/vector%3D
2016-09-21T15:15:15Z DeeEff[m]: SRFI-133 has `vector=`
2016-09-21T15:15:46Z DeeEff[m]: which takes an `elt=?` predicate and two vectors and tests for equality
2016-09-21T15:15:59Z DeeEff[m]: **element-wise equality
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2016-09-21T15:17:25Z DeeEff[m]: If you want a generic `vector=?` then just alias `(define (vector=? v1 v2) (vector= equal? v1 v2))`
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2016-09-21T19:42:08Z ecraven: does any scheme have an ecase that has an automatic (else (error ...))?
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2016-09-21T19:47:32Z DeeEff[m]: ecraven: CHICKEN does! http://api.call-cc.org/doc/miscmacros/ecase
2016-09-21T19:47:59Z ecraven: ah, cool :)
2016-09-21T19:48:00Z ecraven: thank you!
2016-09-21T19:48:07Z ecraven: I tried a few others, no luck there
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2016-09-22T17:16:55Z ecraven: heyho!
2016-09-22T17:16:57Z ecraven: why so quiet :)
2016-09-22T17:18:19Z DeeEff[m]: I'm not scheming today, so very quiet here. 😕
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2016-09-22T17:28:06Z elflng: so quiet. so very, very quiet.
2016-09-22T17:28:16Z ecraven: not so quiet now :)
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2016-09-23T00:10:02Z YottaByte: is this fine if I want to work through sicp: https://www.gnu.org/software/mit-scheme/ ?
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2016-09-23T00:11:32Z ijp: should be
2016-09-23T00:12:41Z YottaByte: I don't know how to use edwin
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2016-09-23T00:12:48Z YottaByte: can't I just type like scheme repl and start running stuff
2016-09-23T00:14:06Z ijp: don't you need a switch to load edwin in the first place
2016-09-23T00:15:44Z cromachina: if you want a more user friendly experience, i recommend drracket in R5RS mode
2016-09-23T00:16:02Z ijp: sicp mode would be even better
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2016-09-23T00:18:11Z YottaByte: i don't know
2016-09-23T00:18:13Z YottaByte: what's going on
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2016-09-23T00:24:05Z YottaByte: i got racket, but I'm not sure if it's scheme. is r5rs much different from r6rs?
2016-09-23T00:26:59Z cromachina: http://community.schemewiki.org/?R6RS
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2016-09-23T00:27:08Z cromachina: a list of changes
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2016-09-23T00:31:12Z ijp: if you are going to use racket, just use #lang sicp. don't worry about r5rs or r6rs for now
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2016-09-23T00:31:36Z ijp: don't confuse yourself further
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2016-09-23T00:35:24Z cromachina: for the latest racket, i think you want #lang planet neil/sicp
2016-09-23T00:36:17Z cromachina: couldnt find #lang sicp in mine
2016-09-23T00:36:28Z cromachina: maybe im on the old version...!
2016-09-23T00:36:57Z ijp: yes, planet neil/sicp
2016-09-23T00:39:25Z YottaByte: how do I do it in the repl?
2016-09-23T00:39:54Z YottaByte: I got stdin::48: planet: misuse of module-path constructor (not within, e.g., `require' or `provide')
2016-09-23T00:40:08Z cromachina: put #lang planet neil/sicp in the file window (top one) and click run
2016-09-23T00:40:27Z cromachina: it will download and install the scheme
2016-09-23T00:40:44Z cromachina: then you can go nuts in the repl
2016-09-23T00:41:40Z YottaByte: oh, neat
2016-09-23T00:41:47Z YottaByte: so now the repl will use sicp scheme?
2016-09-23T00:42:11Z cromachina: yeah, as long as it says that's what the current language is
2016-09-23T00:42:18Z cromachina: it may not remain that way after you exit
2016-09-23T00:42:51Z cromachina: but it will now appear in the language list
2016-09-23T00:42:56Z cromachina: and you can just click on it
2016-09-23T00:44:28Z YottaByte: got it, thanks!
2016-09-23T00:44:43Z cromachina: np
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2016-09-23T05:52:57Z ecraven: good morning :)
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2016-09-23T12:24:36Z ecraven: hehe, mosh implements exact-integer-sqrt by calculating sqrt, truncating, and going from there
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2016-09-23T15:26:37Z wingo: so were scheme workshop talks recorded?
2016-09-23T15:26:50Z wingo: i saw very little twittering about the scheme workshop this year
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2016-09-23T15:45:00Z davexunit wonders the same thing
2016-09-23T15:45:05Z davexunit: would like to see ludo's guix talk
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2016-09-23T17:28:36Z jcowan: wingo, davexunit: I am told that the R7RS-large update was recorded and will be available when it can be edited.
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2016-09-23T21:58:51Z pflanze: Has someone really nailed a general monad abstraction implementation in Scheme?
2016-09-23T22:01:34Z ijp: monads are not commonly used in a systematic way
2016-09-23T22:02:06Z ijp: there was some monadic reflection stuff back in the day but it's probably only rolled on an adhoc basis where appropriate
2016-09-23T22:05:37Z zaquest: what would one gain from monads in a language like scheme?
2016-09-23T22:06:00Z pflanze: type safety. Expliciteness.
2016-09-23T22:06:24Z turbofail: lol
2016-09-23T22:08:20Z pflanze: Why are you laughing?
2016-09-23T22:08:31Z ijp: I don't see how type safety applies
2016-09-23T22:08:49Z zaquest: pflanze, i dont think so... type safety is guaranteed by type checking. expliciteness maybe, but it's not like you can guarantee that your code doesnt break out of the used monad either
2016-09-23T22:09:56Z pflanze: Well, there's no guarantee that supposedly pure functions are pure either.
2016-09-23T22:10:10Z pflanze: Still you're eager to have pure functions.
2016-09-23T22:10:49Z pflanze: Care about increasing the percentage of them being pure.
2016-09-23T22:11:22Z pflanze: And type safety is guaranteed by type checking, yep. So?
2016-09-23T22:11:24Z ijp: you can't even get people to agree on what (list (values 1 2)) does, we're like 50 years away from agreeing on polymorphism
2016-09-23T22:11:48Z pflanze: Type checking can be done at runtime or compile time. It's still type checking when done at runtime.
2016-09-23T22:12:26Z ecraven: ijp: that obviously returns '(1 2).... no, '(1)... no, it raises an error.... any other ideas?
2016-09-23T22:12:26Z pflanze: ijp, yes, that prohibits a monad implementation that's portable across Scheme implementations.
2016-09-23T22:12:43Z turbofail: i was laughing at the "type safety" part
2016-09-23T22:12:48Z ecraven: maybe '((1 2))? :)
2016-09-23T22:12:49Z pflanze: When I said general I didn't mean across Scheme implementations, but extensible, generic with regards to usage.
2016-09-23T22:12:57Z ijp: *that* doesn't prohibit a portable implementation. schemers prohibit a portable implementation
2016-09-23T22:13:19Z ijp: if you are planning on mimicing haskell, you wouldn't be able to dispatch on return type for somethign like return
2016-09-23T22:13:35Z pflanze: yep, that's why I'm asking.
2016-09-23T22:13:54Z pflanze: But you don't have to follow the Haskell model here.
2016-09-23T22:14:12Z pflanze: I think you could use module parametrization for that part.
2016-09-23T22:14:56Z ijp: the answer to your initial question is no. feel free to write your scheme in whatever way you choose. have a nice day.
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2016-09-23T22:42:29Z takitus: Silly question: what is a “general monad abstraction”?
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2016-09-23T22:56:11Z takitus: I’ll assume it’s something Leibniz would have come up with if he had lived longer.
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2016-09-23T23:28:14Z n_blownapart: hi are the lists on lines 4 and 5 here in any way related to binary numbers? I guess not, but I can't get the idea out of my head. thanks  https://www.refheap.com/122826
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2016-09-24T19:21:31Z n_blownapart: also this is something a mathematician wrote for me. T^12  = 1100 in binary https://postimg.org/image/9cm7b4cyz/
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2016-09-24T19:21:54Z n_blownapart: but I don't know how it all relates to the sicp problem
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2016-09-24T19:22:42Z qu1j0t3: okay, so you seem to grasp the exponentiation solution and how squaring makes it O(log n) instead of O(n) for n multiplications?
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2016-09-24T19:23:29Z qu1j0t3: if not we should cover that
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2016-09-24T19:28:18Z n_blownapart: qu1j0t3: thanks, I went through the first one for exponents ; you can see how I worked out the output here : https://github.com/varreli/completed_mit/blob/master/exponent/expt_fast_linear.rkt
2016-09-24T19:28:18Z rudybot: http://teensy.info/UMEi9CuG1x
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2016-09-24T19:29:27Z qu1j0t3: okay, but i'm asking if you understand the principle.
2016-09-24T19:29:37Z qu1j0t3: _how_ it uses squaring.
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2016-09-24T19:30:20Z n_blownapart: er ...
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2016-09-24T19:30:51Z n_blownapart: its some sort of algebra identity
2016-09-24T19:31:13Z n_blownapart: so when even...
2016-09-24T19:31:23Z qu1j0t3: well, imagine x^5 = x*x*x*x*x = (x*x)*(x*x)*x = (x^2)*(x^2)*x
2016-09-24T19:31:37Z n_blownapart: you square instead of repeatedly multiply by the base
2016-09-24T19:31:49Z n_blownapart: multiplying*
2016-09-24T19:32:04Z qu1j0t3: then compose squaring and you have ((x^2)^2)*x which is three multiplications instead of five.
2016-09-24T19:32:15Z qu1j0t3: the fast-expt algorithm takes advantage of this
2016-09-24T19:32:32Z qu1j0t3: you have to completely understand how fast-expt works before even thinking about the Fibonacci problem.
2016-09-24T19:32:43Z n_blownapart: yes I get the jist of that. you are condensing the operation into a squaring
2016-09-24T19:33:07Z qu1j0t3: composed squarings, actually. & this relates to the binary decomposition of the exponent.
2016-09-24T19:33:23Z qu1j0t3: that's what your math. friend was laying out
2016-09-24T19:33:55Z n_blownapart: ok thanks very much. one moment please let me organize myself
2016-09-24T19:33:55Z qu1j0t3: x^5 = x*(x^4).    x^(2n) = (x^n)*(x^n)
2016-09-24T19:34:30Z n_blownapart: right so what you wrote just then...
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2016-09-24T20:06:44Z n_blownapart: qu1j0t3: many thanks. I am going to hand write the output differently and see what it looks like.
2016-09-24T20:06:59Z qu1j0t3: sure, you can do this reduction by hand on any exponent.
2016-09-24T20:07:16Z qu1j0t3: try x^10 ... break it down into squarings and multiplications using the identities:
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2016-09-24T20:07:33Z qu1j0t3: 1)   x^(n+1) = x*x^n    x^(2n) = (x^n)*(x^n)
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2016-09-24T20:08:26Z n_blownapart: check it out, by coincidence ...
2016-09-24T20:08:51Z n_blownapart: https://www.refheap.com/122839 qu1j0t3
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2016-09-24T20:09:27Z n_blownapart: so I can see how it is implemented, but as you said, I didn't have a handle on the concept. qu1j0t3
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2016-09-24T20:09:40Z qu1j0t3: yeah put the code aside and do it by hand
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2016-09-24T20:10:10Z qu1j0t3: reduce x^10 using the odd/even rule as appropriate
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2016-09-24T20:10:20Z qu1j0t3: (the odd and even rules are the two identities above)
2016-09-24T20:10:52Z qu1j0t3: odd = exponent is n+1 (if n is even)       even = exponent is n*2
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2016-09-25T09:47:42Z wasamasa: wat
2016-09-25T09:48:00Z jackdaniel: '(+ . +)
2016-09-25T09:48:01Z jackdaniel: ;D
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2016-09-25T13:19:31Z qu1j0t3: nanoz: If I had to guess what you meant,  (cons '+ '())
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2016-09-25T14:17:54Z nanoz: qu1j0t3 was trying to implement '(+) in cons
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2016-09-25T14:42:08Z qu1j0t3 is still unclear
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2016-09-25T15:20:13Z nanoz: what makes it so confused ?
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2016-09-25T15:32:24Z qu1j0t3: maybe it's just me and it's clear to everyone else. nm
2016-09-25T15:42:55Z nanoz: k
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2016-09-25T17:49:57Z haraiii: hi
2016-09-25T17:56:22Z haraiii: anyone?
2016-09-25T17:56:27Z haraiii: (define (expts product n count) (
2016-09-25T17:56:27Z haraiii:  if (>= count n) product (expts (* b product) n (+ count 1))))
2016-09-25T17:56:27Z haraiii:  
2016-09-25T17:57:15Z haraiii: this is supposed to find the exponent of base product and power n i get the error b is unbounded:/
2016-09-25T17:57:15Z haraiii: why
2016-09-25T17:57:16Z haraiii: :O
2016-09-25T17:59:19Z pjb: Where is the variable b defined?
2016-09-25T17:59:25Z daviid: haraiii: whithin the scope of the definition of expts, b is undefined
2016-09-25T18:01:23Z haraiii: aah yes ty>.<
2016-09-25T18:01:26Z haraiii: did it wrong
2016-09-25T18:13:55Z haraiii: btw how does everyone debug their scheme programs? is there a gdb way where you walk through it step by step?
2016-09-25T18:14:43Z pjb: It depends on the scheme implementation you are using.
2016-09-25T18:14:53Z pjb: haraiii: alternatively, you could write your own debugger in scheme.
2016-09-25T18:15:12Z haraiii: hmm Im using guile i think
2016-09-25T18:15:19Z pjb: I wrote half a debugger (a stepper/tracer) for Common Lisp in Common Lisp.
2016-09-25T18:15:28Z haraiii: writing a debugger sounds complex:o
2016-09-25T18:15:35Z pjb: Not really.
2016-09-25T18:15:52Z haraiii: its big?
2016-09-25T18:15:53Z haraiii: link?
2016-09-25T18:15:55Z pjb: Just like writing eval, with more I/O.
2016-09-25T18:16:33Z pjb: it's stepper*.lisp in https://gitlab.com/com-informatimago/com-informatimago/tree/master/common-lisp/lisp
2016-09-25T18:16:33Z rudybot: http://teensy.info/i9xLxjfJwc
2016-09-25T18:18:28Z haraiii: looks big to me lol
2016-09-25T18:18:39Z pjb: making it a full fleshed debugger (with variable inspection, step-by-step execution, breakpoint insertion, etc) would be rather trivial.
2016-09-25T18:18:48Z haraiii: :O
2016-09-25T18:18:51Z pjb: haraiii: Common Lisp is more complex than scheme.
2016-09-25T18:19:23Z haraiii: bookmarked, will look at it
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2016-09-25T18:37:16Z haraiii: fixed ty^_^
2016-09-25T18:37:55Z haraiii: (define (expt1 b n)  (expts 1 b n)   )
2016-09-25T18:37:55Z haraiii: 						
2016-09-25T18:37:56Z haraiii: (define (expts product  b count) (
2016-09-25T18:37:56Z haraiii:  if (> count 0) (expts (* b product) b (- count 1)) product))
2016-09-25T18:37:58Z haraiii:  
2016-09-25T18:38:00Z haraiii: omg im so good:3
2016-09-25T18:49:54Z pjb: it could be more efficient.
2016-09-25T18:50:28Z pjb: This expts is O(count).  It could be O(log(count)).
2016-09-25T18:51:29Z pjb: haraiii: in lisp, you should never have a parenthesis alone on a line.  Never have a space or a newline after "(" or before ")"!
2016-09-25T18:54:57Z haraiii: aah:o ok!
2016-09-25T18:55:24Z haraiii: hmm howd you get it to O(log(c)))
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2016-09-25T18:56:11Z pjb: noting that when count is even, you can use (* product product) and (/ count 2) instead of (* b product) and (- count 1), while keeping the invariant.
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2016-09-25T19:07:03Z haraiii: aah yeah, thats the next exercise in sicp:o
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2016-09-25T19:30:22Z DeeEff[m]: haraiii: not to derail your fun with Guile but CHICKEN has a debugger as of the latest stable release. It's called feathers! http://wiki.call-cc.org/man/4/Debugging
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2016-09-25T19:31:26Z DeeEff[m]: IMO you don't need a debugger as much when you have a reasonable REPL
2016-09-25T19:31:30Z DeeEff[m]: but still
2016-09-25T19:32:03Z ijp: debuggers can't get no respect
2016-09-25T19:32:32Z DeeEff[m]: why should we give them respect? A debugger means you've made mistakes /s
2016-09-25T19:33:04Z ijp rolls eyes
2016-09-25T19:36:12Z DKordic: xD I only make features.
2016-09-25T19:38:23Z DeeEff[m]: DKordic: that's the Bob Ross Driven Development model
2016-09-25T19:38:26Z DeeEff[m]: we don't make bugs
2016-09-25T19:38:39Z DeeEff[m]: just happy little accidents^Wfeatures
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2016-09-26T12:14:14Z foof: cojy: thanks for the report, should work now
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2016-09-26T14:28:08Z Noon: Which is the latest Scheme standard?
2016-09-26T14:29:03Z ecraven: Noon: r7rs
2016-09-26T14:29:24Z Noon: ecraven, which implementation fully supports it?
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2016-09-26T14:29:45Z ecraven: chibi-scheme is fairly complete I think
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2016-09-26T15:25:27Z DeeEff[m]: I think chibi is the reference implementation, AFAIK CHICKEN also supports most of R7RS-small
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2016-09-26T15:27:50Z DeeEff[m]: http://wiki.call-cc.org/eggref/4/r7rs#limitations
2016-09-26T15:30:19Z ecraven: https://ecraven.github.com/r7rs-coverage/stats.html
2016-09-26T15:30:24Z ecraven: not quite up to date, not checking everything
2016-09-26T15:31:16Z ecraven: ah, old version, new one up now
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2016-09-26T17:46:36Z jcowan: DeeEff[m], ecraven: http://trac.sacrideo.us/wg/wiki/ImplementationSupport shows the R7RS-small implementations to date
2016-09-26T17:47:19Z ecraven: jcowan: that doesn't show much
2016-09-26T17:47:27Z ecraven: ah, sorry, I misread
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2016-09-26T17:47:43Z ecraven: I'll try to add them to the coverage tests tomorrow
2016-09-26T17:57:47Z jcowan: Interesting stat: from 2007 (R6RS) to 2013 (R7RS-small), there were  implementations of R6RS: Chez, Icarus/Vicare, Larceny, Ypsilon, Mosh, IronScheme, Sagittarius.
2016-09-26T17:57:59Z jcowan: s/impl/7 impl
2016-09-26T17:58:34Z jcowan: In the 3 years since R7RS we have 10 implementations, 3 partial implementations, and 1 unofficial implementation of R7RS-small.
2016-09-26T17:59:09Z jcowan: Maybe Guile should be added as a partial impl of R6RS, though R6RS doesn't like such things.
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2016-09-26T20:17:50Z ijp: jcowan: you also missed out racket
2016-09-26T20:18:50Z C-Keen: ijp: it's there listed as unofficial
2016-09-26T20:19:08Z ijp: I mean for r6rs, which it supports officially
2016-09-26T20:19:19Z ijp: I don't care about r7rs in the slightest
2016-09-26T20:19:33Z C-Keen: ah alright
2016-09-26T20:20:33Z jcowan: ijp: Right, thanks
2016-09-26T20:21:06Z jcowan: of course, it is easier in many respects to extend an existing Scheme to be R7 than it is to take an R5 Scheme and make it R6
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2016-09-26T20:25:19Z jcowan: When we get to the Green Edition of R7RS-large, it will become hard to implement on top of random R5RS systems, but R6RS systems will have a substantial advantage.
2016-09-26T20:27:47Z wasamasa: jcowan: I've heard r7rs-large will have loads of optional parts left to the implementations, is this true?
2016-09-26T20:28:30Z ijp plugs fingers in ear and closes eyes
2016-09-26T20:28:33Z jcowan: It's an open question.  There isn't much point in not requiring stuff that has a portable implementation, but stuff that does not may wind up being optional.
2016-09-26T20:29:10Z jcowan: So everything in the Red Edition is mandatory because worst-case you can download the SRFI implementations.
2016-09-26T20:29:49Z jcowan: In the ongoing Orange Edition, we have flonums and fixnums, which worst-case are just exact integers and inexact reals, and we do require all large Scheme implementations to have those.
2016-09-26T20:29:49Z wasamasa: yes, I thought that it shouldn't be a problem given how much of the r7rs-large stuff comes from srfis
2016-09-26T20:30:31Z jcowan: It will pretty much all come from SRFIs (or direct from R6RS, perhaps), but not all SRFIs (can) have portable implementations.
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2016-09-26T22:42:57Z samth: wingo: i'm watching your talk, and wondering how you measure allocation rate
2016-09-26T22:43:59Z samth: I can get racket up to 8+ GB/s depending on the benchmark
2016-09-26T22:44:13Z samth: but allocating big vectors seems a little unfair
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2016-09-27T06:40:15Z wingo: samth: that was with pairs
2016-09-27T06:40:21Z wingo: so 2-word allocations
2016-09-27T06:40:35Z wingo: with big allocations obviously it's different
2016-09-27T06:53:42Z samth: wingo: so guile pairs are only 2 words?
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2016-09-27T06:58:49Z wingo: samth: yes
2016-09-27T06:59:12Z samth: samth: nice
2016-09-27T06:59:22Z wingo: our gc doesn't move things (bad) so we don't need space for a hash code (good) :)
2016-09-27T06:59:26Z samth: where do you put the header info?
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2016-09-27T06:59:39Z samth: ie type tag
2016-09-27T07:00:13Z wingo pages this back in
2016-09-27T07:00:56Z ecraven: without knowing, I'd guess you have a few tag bits, and have a special tag for cons cells?
2016-09-27T07:02:38Z wingo: http://git.savannah.gnu.org/cgit/guile.git/tree/libguile/tags.h#n226 <- these four paragraphs
2016-09-27T07:02:57Z wingo: er, five
2016-09-27T07:03:35Z wingo: or rather paragraphs 1, 4, 5
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2016-09-27T07:03:36Z wingo: anyway
2016-09-27T07:03:41Z wingo: not very well explained i think
2016-09-27T07:04:33Z wingo: i guess paragraph 5 is the thing, that we don't allocate type codes with a low bit of 0
2016-09-27T07:04:46Z wingo: er with a set low bit
2016-09-27T07:05:11Z wingo: so if you see a heap object whose first word's lowest bit is 0, then it's a pair
2016-09-27T07:05:12Z wingo: i think.
2016-09-27T07:05:56Z wingo: sorry for the imprecision, this is one of those inherited things that i only page in sometimes :)
2016-09-27T07:08:43Z ecraven: wingo: do you have any guesses on whether this sort of cons-cell optimisation is actually worth it?
2016-09-27T07:08:56Z ecraven: given that many programs might use records or vectors more than plain lists
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2016-09-27T07:16:33Z wingo: hard to say
2016-09-27T07:16:57Z wingo: things were much more pair-y in the days when this was written
2016-09-27T07:17:12Z wingo: i should do some science to see what the heap looks like :)
2016-09-27T07:17:45Z wingo: ecraven: tx for poking the arch guile-git person btw, i see that it is fixed now
2016-09-27T07:18:01Z wingo: time to re-run the benchmarks, methinks ;)
2016-09-27T07:19:15Z ecraven: hehe, I'll do that within the next few days
2016-09-27T07:19:19Z wingo: the compiler can specialize closures to be pairs if the code pointer isn't needed and there are only 2 free variables (the optimizing closures in o(0) time thing)
2016-09-27T07:19:28Z wingo: that's probably a minor effect tho
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2016-09-27T07:56:20Z wasamasa: ecraven: I have my doubts that vectors and records are heavily used
2016-09-27T07:57:36Z ecraven: wasamasa: hm.. personally, I tend to use lists first, but quickly switch to define-record-type because things get unwieldy and error-prone fast
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2016-09-27T07:58:02Z wasamasa: it's so much easier to use lists
2016-09-27T07:58:25Z wasamasa: unless it's about clojure, but they have the problems of records being underused because maps are so much more convenient
2016-09-27T08:01:14Z ecraven: wasamasa: on mit, (define-structure point x y z) gives you everything, doing that by hand with lists is much mork work
2016-09-27T08:01:31Z ecraven: and if *everything* is a list, type errors are even harder to find
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2016-09-28T14:05:09Z jcowan: ho hey
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2016-09-28T15:18:53Z DeeEff[m]: hey #scheme, did everyone survive yesterday's DDoS?
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2016-09-28T15:24:12Z wasamasa: yeah, I ended up fixing my znc config
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2016-09-28T15:30:19Z jcowan: What DDoS?
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2016-09-28T15:41:16Z DeeEff[m]: Freenode has been getting DDoS'd since Sunday
2016-09-28T15:41:25Z DeeEff[m]: skiddies gonna skid
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2016-09-28T17:08:01Z ecraven: what is the biggest integer that doubles can represent correctly?
2016-09-28T17:09:31Z LeoNerd: You mean IEEE 754 doubles?
2016-09-28T17:10:00Z LeoNerd: Those have a 53/10/1 representation I seem to recall.
2016-09-28T17:10:01Z ecraven: LeoNerd: yes
2016-09-28T17:10:04Z ecraven: 52, I think
2016-09-28T17:10:11Z ecraven: so 2^52 should still be ok? or somewhere around there?
2016-09-28T17:10:15Z LeoNerd: Ah. OK, so 52 mantissa bits
2016-09-28T17:10:36Z LeoNerd: Well,... so that's the fun bit. There's an implied 1.bbbbbb before the actual mantissa bits
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2016-09-28T17:41:29Z jcowan: So 2^53.
2016-09-28T17:42:30Z ecraven: that's about 30,000 astronomical units in meters, that's quite a bit :)
2016-09-28T17:43:43Z jcowan: Indeed it is.
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2016-09-30T12:46:10Z amz3`: héllo, I am working with biwascheme
2016-09-30T12:47:30Z z0d: hi
2016-09-30T12:47:36Z amz3`: I'm experimenting with reactjs like framwork-ish thing
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2016-09-30T12:48:10Z amz3`: Basically reactjs-like frameworks do use a single immutable datastructure
2016-09-30T12:49:12Z amz3`: called *state* in my code
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2016-09-30T12:49:41Z amz3`: the whole framework can be explained as follow (render (view *state*))
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2016-09-30T12:49:57Z amz3`: render will patch the DOM and update the GUI
2016-09-30T12:50:26Z amz3`: in effect it can be summarized as (render *state*)
2016-09-30T12:50:59Z amz3`: the problem I have is related to events handling
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2016-09-30T12:52:10Z amz3`: nvm, I will read more about reactjs
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2016-09-30T12:54:35Z amz3`: I think I need to use some kind of cursor so that when I pass around the *state* and some part of it, I can create a new *state*
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2016-09-30T13:01:58Z amz3` read http://redux.js.org/docs/basics/Reducers.html
2016-09-30T13:02:22Z amz3`: so there is single reducer proc that is (state, action) -> new state
2016-09-30T13:02:23Z z0d: I'm not really familiar with reactjs
2016-09-30T13:03:06Z amz3`: where action is some data particular to a given event
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2016-09-30T13:04:20Z amz3`: reactjs itself, does only compute the diff between two scenes and patch the current rendered scene to update it
2016-09-30T13:04:39Z amz3`: but the ecosystem of reactjs takes a lot of inspiration from functional programming
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2016-09-30T13:05:30Z amz3`: in the context of web browsers, scenes are modeled using basically DOM
2016-09-30T13:05:42Z amz3`: DOM tree...
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2016-09-30T13:14:04Z amz3`: structuring reduces is the biggest chapter in the documentation http://redux.js.org/docs/recipes/StructuringReducers.html
2016-09-30T13:14:15Z amz3`: no wonder why I struggle with that
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2016-09-30T13:30:15Z amz3`: basically I'm trying the problem I try to solve is compositing widgets  each of which have a state and events/actions
2016-09-30T13:30:54Z amz3`: *basically I'm trying solve the problem of widgets composition, where each widgets has a state and events/actions
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2016-09-30T18:36:16Z ecraven: foof: is there any way with the C ffi to directly access/modify record fields? or do I have to go through the Scheme accessors?
2016-09-30T18:36:24Z ecraven: in chibi
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2016-09-30T18:59:59Z amz3`: actually what I wanted to do (or at least what I've done) is generic widgets ie. widgets you can re-use in the same page...
2016-09-30T19:00:11Z amz3`: If you are interested I posted my work on biwascheme ML https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/biwascheme/URurpsiLrr0
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2016-09-30T20:03:19Z jcowan: ecraven: There is a low-level record API in Chibi
2016-09-30T20:03:54Z jcowan: See http://synthcode.com/scheme/chibi/#h3_Types
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2016-09-30T20:56:06Z ecraven: jcowan: but I still cannot access them directly from C, right?
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2016-09-30T21:00:22Z jcowan: ecraven: They are in /usr/include/chibi/sexp.h as sexp_* functions
2016-09-30T21:00:49Z jcowan: down near the end
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2016-09-30T21:04:32Z ecraven: jcowan: thanks, I should have checked the source, I just looked at the documentation... great, thanks again!
2016-09-30T21:05:04Z jcowan: yeah, Alex has been very remiss in documenting Chibi's C API.
2016-09-30T21:05:11Z jcowan: foof: ^^
2016-09-30T21:05:42Z ecraven: well, it might be sufficient to say "this is not all there is, check the source for details" :)
2016-09-30T21:06:00Z ecraven: also, it would be cool if the necessary changes could be made to make sexp.h includable in c++ projects :-/
2016-09-30T21:06:46Z ecraven: sexp data[]; is *not* legal c++, so unfortunately you cannot include sexp.h in any c++ project... so you have to wrap it entirely in *another* c layer
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2016-09-30T21:17:29Z gwatt: chibi supports plan9?
2016-09-30T21:17:31Z gwatt: weird
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2016-09-30T21:34:51Z jcowan: gwatt: AFAIK it is the only Scheme that does
2016-09-30T21:35:19Z wasamasa: what about CHICKEN?
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2016-09-30T23:35:02Z gwatt: jcowan: scheme 9 from outer space
2016-09-30T23:35:16Z gwatt: err, empty space
2016-09-30T23:37:57Z gwatt: ssh-rsa AAAAB3NzaC1yc2EAAAADAQABAAABAQCjgBiRI+qOfaVm8T6a8BNPn8Wm0omoQfdoLeRmRzW7Nyr3yEqcQgYSww6nHMaymfrbUmX/sZRkxsBy1y7PV1g22F7/Ipo68AHhTdf1H5T/0qpnz9mZ9YIL3D0tu7r2jlkYSuJKrUoTAyMpntpxKRzAI5prahiBtf7mS0uYjZvuErljNMBGVEGFh5FzV1pr+0IgnzzXTmw4vKiAFV2A7taesMWBTQ4Ef4v1z4Z87sOqaU9Wgm8MgtbCQqFabSPPrXwzSGZGhyLd2B1SpS/bDEAwwEwRhs/2Dpn21Jx74RFsjAJhSF4MNRguP53TWBiVdOtuvYa0+DbGjirTcmEwrQbh gmw@ash.gmw.lan
2016-09-30T23:38:03Z gwatt: shit
2016-09-30T23:38:19Z gwatt: damn you middle click...
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2016-09-30T23:53:47Z wasamasa stares blankly
2016-09-30T23:53:57Z wasamasa: that's a public key, right?
2016-09-30T23:53:59Z gwatt: yes
2016-09-30T23:54:17Z LeoNerd: Looks like it. I.e. safe enough to copy around
2016-09-30T23:54:18Z LeoNerd: :)
2016-09-30T23:54:27Z gwatt: a private key would start with -----BEGIN RSA PRIVATE KEY-----
2016-09-30T23:54:27Z wasamasa: not an empty space though
2016-09-30T23:54:38Z LeoNerd: The priva...
2016-09-30T23:54:40Z LeoNerd: what he said