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2016-06-22T11:52:04Z ecraven: new run, new benchmark graph at http://ecraven.github.io/r7rs-benchmarks/benchmark.html
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2016-06-22T12:49:50Z davorb: John[Lisbeth]: I just use emacs and switch between eshell and ansi-term (and zsh with the latter)
2016-06-22T12:51:15Z davorb: ecraven: it would be nice to see things like the average value, the standard deviation and things like that.
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2016-06-22T12:57:49Z ecraven: davorb: indeed, one day I'll move all the data into javascript and do that
2016-06-22T12:58:00Z ecraven: but the actual raw data is linked as a csv file, if you want to play with it
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2016-06-22T17:07:30Z funrep: "Use call/cc to write a program that loops indefinitely, printing a sequence of numbers beginning at zero. Do not use any recursive procedures, and do not use any assignments."
2016-06-22T17:07:36Z funrep: anyone know how?
2016-06-22T17:08:11Z LeoNerd: I would imagine it requires some fixing
2016-06-22T17:10:00Z ijp: essentially it involves passing the continuation back to itself
2016-06-22T17:12:57Z funrep: how would one do that?
2016-06-22T17:14:01Z ijp: well, continuations are functions, and functions take arguments
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2016-06-22T17:17:13Z funrep: hmm just so difficult to reason about
2016-06-22T17:17:27Z LeoNerd: That's call/cc for you ;)
2016-06-22T17:17:52Z ijp: s/functions/procedures/ before someone decides to edumacate me
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2016-06-22T17:22:02Z funrep: are there any general pattern or technique for programming with call/cc?
2016-06-22T17:22:42Z ijp: don't
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2016-06-22T17:23:48Z funrep: then why is it in second chapter of a scheme book and mentioned like everywhere o.O
2016-06-22T17:25:01Z ijp: which scheme book puts it in the second chapter?
2016-06-22T17:25:12Z funrep: tspl
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2016-06-22T17:35:50Z funrep: http://paste.lisp.org/display/318970 what does "." mean in the first let?
2016-06-22T17:36:21Z ijp: it's just part of the name of that symbol
2016-06-22T17:37:31Z funrep: okey
2016-06-22T17:38:47Z ijp: I'd have used multiple values rather than a cons, but if it works...
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2016-06-22T18:07:56Z n_blownapart: hi I think I get this program, though on line 65 - part of my hand written solution - I have that (f 2) returns 2. but this is after the base case. since the output is 25, either that is correct or I am still missing 2 somewhere in the hand-written part. thanks https://www.refheap.com/120702
2016-06-22T18:08:43Z n_blownapart: correction (2* (f 1) => 2
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2016-06-22T18:19:23Z n_blownapart: I realize the hand-written part has errors -- best I could do. I commented it out : https://www.refheap.com/120702
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2016-06-22T18:19:59Z n_blownapart: my question is now on line 63
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2016-06-22T18:21:07Z n_blownapart: does (* 2 (f 1)) return 2 on line 63 or is that wrong? It seems to me it wouldn't return anything since the base case (> 2 3) is met.
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2016-06-22T18:36:04Z ecraven: is there any halfway decent FRP ui library for any Scheme?
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2016-06-22T18:42:21Z wasamasa: Kooda is working on one
2016-06-22T18:42:36Z wasamasa: other than that, there is such a thing in guile for games
2016-06-22T18:43:16Z Kooda: Yes, there’s Sly: https://dthompson.us/pages/software/sly.html
2016-06-22T18:43:29Z Kooda: It’s a game engine with an FRP system.
2016-06-22T18:43:48Z ijp: I note elm was dropping frp
2016-06-22T18:44:02Z wasamasa: what exactly is it using now?
2016-06-22T18:44:36Z ijp: some kind of rearchitecturing, I filed the blog post away for reading and didn't come back to it
2016-06-22T18:45:01Z Kooda: They are exposing a different API to the user.
2016-06-22T18:45:19Z Kooda: It seems like FPR in desguise. :)
2016-06-22T18:46:42Z Kooda: (with a great deal of hand holding ^^)
2016-06-22T18:47:01Z Kooda: Which is very nice for their purpose, I’ll probably look at how they did it.
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2016-06-22T20:44:30Z jcowan: ho hye
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2016-06-22T20:45:14Z jcowan: Does anyone here feel like weighing in on the current symbols-vs-identifiers debate over the field names of records?
2016-06-22T20:45:25Z jcowan: There are arguments both ways, and new input would be a Good Thing
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2016-06-22T20:47:09Z jcowan: Basically, neither R7RS nor SRFI 9 makes it very clear what field names actually are
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2016-06-22T21:54:24Z pierpa: jcowan: the argument is very technical. No wonder few people have sensible things to contribute :(
2016-06-22T21:54:42Z pierpa: oops he quitted
2016-06-22T22:00:35Z Riastradh: I suggest painting the record shed with a `.' separator in the name instead of a `-' separator.  (pair.car pair), (set-pair.car! pair a)
2016-06-22T22:01:03Z Riastradh: Does that help with the too-technical nature of the discussion?
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2016-06-22T22:30:16Z pierpa`: but there's no ambiguity in r7rs about what separator to use :)
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2016-06-22T23:26:26Z sondr3: I'm about to start on The Little Schemer, which scheme works well with the book and Emacs? There's so many different Scheme implementations out there for a newbie, hehe
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2016-06-22T23:38:05Z pierpa`: sondr3: for the little schemer, any scheme will do
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2016-06-22T23:46:31Z sondr3: pierpa`: thanks :)
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2016-06-23T00:11:35Z nitost: I have aspirations for being a systems hacker and working for my uncle as a pentester. I've been studying SICP, due to recommendations and praise of the book. However, I feel like it's too high-level and that I won't really benefit from it. Am I wrong in my belief? Is this a good book to continue trudging through for someone ultimately interested in pentesting, or am I simply wasting my time?
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2016-06-23T00:16:17Z pierpa: if you want to learn programming it's not time wasted. Otherwise, it may be.
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2016-06-23T00:22:04Z nitost: pierpa: So it is useful for a potential pentester, or should I be perusing more low-level material?
2016-06-23T00:23:21Z davorb: nitost: if you want to get a job, learn c/c++ and java. if you want to not hate your life, go for lisp/haskell/rust. simple as that.
2016-06-23T00:23:36Z davorb: it
2016-06-23T00:23:38Z davorb: it
2016-06-23T00:24:12Z davorb: it's really to hard to say without knowing what you already know. if you need to learn cs fundamentals, then it doesn't matter what language you are learning.
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2016-06-23T09:00:37Z cameronfr: hi! I'm working through SICP and was wondering whether it is more conventional, when defining a method that passes functions to another procedure, to either 1. define the functions in a block in the said procedure, and then pass them to the procedure that takes in functions as input, or 2. directly pass the functions to the procedure using lambda functions
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2016-06-23T09:04:10Z cameronfr: for example I have a procedure (sqrt n) that calls another procedure (iterative-improve <func 1> <func 2>; should I define <func1> and <func2> directly in the call using lambda, or should I actually (define ....) them in (sqrt n) and then pass them to (iterative-improve ...) ?
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2016-06-23T09:45:05Z ijp: there's no hard and fast rule, just do whichever you think is more readable
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2016-06-23T11:18:26Z davorb: +1 on what ijp said
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2016-06-23T12:46:26Z GreySunshine: Hello all, I am Vasanth
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2016-06-23T12:47:43Z GreySunshine: I find it difficult to debug this program that I've written, please help. Link: http://paste.lisp.org/display/319032
2016-06-23T12:49:25Z GreySunshine: I use guile
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2016-06-23T13:51:45Z GreySunshine: found the error
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2016-06-23T15:54:50Z contrapunctus: o/
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2016-06-23T15:55:28Z contrapunctus: Is a TSPL5 (covering R7RS) expected to come out anytime?
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2016-06-23T16:02:33Z contrapunctus: additionally... http://trac.sacrideo.us/wg/raw-attachment/wiki/WikiStart/r7rs.pdf seems down
2016-06-23T16:04:08Z gwatt: I can grab it.
2016-06-23T16:04:10Z contrapunctus: (or not. works through a proxy...)
2016-06-23T16:06:10Z gwatt: wasn't TSPL written by Dybvig? Is he still active in the language design?
2016-06-23T16:06:51Z contrapunctus: It was, and I'm afraid I don't know.
2016-06-23T16:08:05Z asumu: He's certainly still working on Chez. Not sure he cares about R7RS though.
2016-06-23T16:11:53Z contrapunctus: additionally, is there anywhere I can read about what has changed between r5rs and r7rs-small?
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2016-06-23T18:06:27Z teurastaja: sup guys?
2016-06-23T18:06:49Z teurastaja: how do you make portable standalone gui programs nowadays?
2016-06-23T18:06:50Z gwatt: yo
2016-06-23T18:07:04Z teurastaja: those end users are killing me
2016-06-23T18:07:11Z gwatt: I'd probably go with Qt
2016-06-23T18:07:20Z teurastaja: portable
2016-06-23T18:07:30Z gwatt: yeah, just distribute the Dlls
2016-06-23T18:07:46Z teurastaja: must make a nice gui under windows. distribute the dlls?
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2016-06-23T18:08:22Z gwatt: Qt is a graphical framework. You can distribute the compiled program with the Qt shared libraries.
2016-06-23T18:08:25Z teurastaja: is it easy? everything i looked at seemed like i was programming a microcontroller with an lcd screen
2016-06-23T18:08:57Z gwatt: It's pretty easy. Qt Creator is a reasonable IDE for it.
2016-06-23T18:09:12Z teurastaja: and you use which compiler?\
2016-06-23T18:09:41Z teurastaja: how do i make standalone exes anyway?
2016-06-23T18:09:59Z gwatt: you'll need to compile it for each patform.
2016-06-23T18:10:35Z teurastaja: say windows. do i compile once for all flavours? (maybe in 32 bit)
2016-06-23T18:11:02Z gwatt: I think so.
2016-06-23T18:11:04Z teurastaja: i cant do that with gauche right?
2016-06-23T18:12:24Z teurastaja: which comiler do you use?\
2016-06-23T18:12:30Z teurastaja: *compiler
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2016-06-23T18:12:50Z gwatt: might be difficult. since Qt's a C++ library It'll be hard to figure out the mangled symbols
2016-06-23T18:14:02Z teurastaja: ... i was talking about scheme, but i guess scheme->C works
2016-06-23T18:16:07Z gwatt: looks like racket has a gui
2016-06-23T18:16:18Z teurastaja: is it hard to bind to the interface from a scheme->C compiler?
2016-06-23T18:16:47Z teurastaja: i prefer to forget about racket. i use fully portable r7rs code
2016-06-23T18:16:48Z gwatt: that's going to depend on the scheme. They're going to have different ways of doing FFI.
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2016-06-23T18:18:19Z contrapunctus: .o(did I hear that right? 'fully portable' and 'scheme code' used in the same sentence? :D)
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2016-06-23T18:19:56Z ecraven: contrapunctus: r7rs page 77 shows changes from r5rs and r6rs
2016-06-23T18:20:19Z gwatt: teurastaja: by 'portable' did you mean portable between schemes or between operating systems ?
2016-06-23T18:20:35Z ijp: contrapunctus: people used to write portable r6rs code, but that's just proof that r6rs was the great satan
2016-06-23T18:20:37Z contrapunctus: ecraven: thanks!
2016-06-23T18:20:40Z teurastaja: contrapunctus: judge by yourself: http://pastebin.com/u/bsddeamon
2016-06-23T18:20:41Z contrapunctus: ijp: lmao
2016-06-23T18:21:05Z ijp: naturally r7rs broke all my code
2016-06-23T18:21:32Z teurastaja: my only dependencies are srfi 27 and occasionally srfi 1
2016-06-23T18:21:46Z ecraven: also, scheme code can be portable, it all depends on what you do... see https://ecraven.github.io/r7rs-benchmarks/benchmark.html, all those benchmarks run essentially the same code on all of those schemes
2016-06-23T18:21:47Z contrapunctus: teurastaja: isn't #| |# syntax non-standard?
2016-06-23T18:21:54Z ecraven: contrapunctus: not in r7rs :)
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2016-06-23T18:22:27Z ijp: if by non-standard you mean "not in r5rs"
2016-06-23T18:22:30Z contrapunctus: o.o
2016-06-23T18:22:32Z contrapunctus: I see
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2016-06-23T18:22:55Z teurastaja: i use r7rs. am i the only one or what?
2016-06-23T18:23:36Z ecraven: teurastaja: no :)
2016-06-23T18:24:39Z teurastaja: so... how do i make a standalone gui from pure r7rs code? i know the gui wont be "standard" thats not the question
2016-06-23T18:25:20Z teurastaja: i use gauche but could use gambit or others, as long as it accepts pure r7rs code
2016-06-23T18:25:26Z davorb: teurastaja: either find a gui library for your implementation or use the FFI
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2016-06-23T18:27:58Z teurastaja: it all seems too low-level. i mean... i wont program SSE drivers for that :/ damn users too stupid to use a command line grrr...
2016-06-23T18:27:59Z ecraven: chicken has a lot of gui stuff, not sure how r7rs it is
2016-06-23T18:28:32Z ecraven: teurastaja: wasamasa has done a lot of chicken gui stuff, libui for example looks nice
2016-06-23T18:28:39Z ecraven: and in theory even cross-platform :)
2016-06-23T18:29:39Z teurastaja: hmm... lets take a look at the standards 1 sec
2016-06-23T18:30:22Z contrapunctus: IIRC wasamasa 's nuklear bindings are completed
2016-06-23T18:30:35Z wasamasa: they aren't complete
2016-06-23T18:31:12Z wasamasa: and it's most definitely not running anywhere else than on linux because the .setup doesn't take care of that
2016-06-23T18:33:28Z teurastaja: ok so looks like r7rs support for chicken is doubtful
2016-06-23T18:33:53Z teurastaja: from what i read it looks incomplete and beta-level
2016-06-23T18:34:20Z gwatt: out of curiousity, what does your tool do?
2016-06-23T18:34:45Z teurastaja: This egg provides support for most of the R7RS Scheme language. It is still under construction and should be considered subject to change.
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2016-06-23T18:35:51Z teurastaja: i have various applications i want to do but foremost my extreme-level sudoku generator. beats  even the best sudoku books and all written in r7rs
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2016-06-23T18:38:00Z teurastaja: i know only one technique for generating harder sudokus. basically on scale, newspaper sudokus are about 80/1000, good books 400/1000 and mine over 850/1000 in difficulty
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2016-06-23T18:38:19Z teurastaja: so i want to make a gui of it
2016-06-23T18:39:18Z teurastaja: the only better technique i know of generates sudokus with only 17 clues but my minimum is 19 clues
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2016-06-23T18:42:17Z gwatt: nice
2016-06-23T18:42:23Z teurastaja: you basically cant solve half my sudokus without resorting to trial and error even while using all human-like algorithms but its a waste since nobody uses it...
2016-06-23T18:43:37Z ijp: I'm surprised sudoku has had such enduring popularity
2016-06-23T18:43:55Z teurastaja: its a great puzzle to program in scheme
2016-06-23T18:44:06Z teurastaja: much fun it was...
2016-06-23T18:49:12Z teurastaja: it made me learn Knuth's dancing links algorithm, which enlightened my journey towards algorithmic wisdom. now im studying neural networks and they make me mad because its all "almost working" but the results are garbage... probably the derivatives i got wrong in backpropagation. i was using the activations but i think i should be deriving th preactivations. not sure on that one
2016-06-23T18:49:42Z teurastaja: grrr
2016-06-23T18:49:50Z teurastaja: such a lonely path
2016-06-23T18:51:31Z teurastaja: they say scheme was invented for AI but i dont see many AI projects in scheme
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2016-06-23T18:52:12Z ijp: it wasn't
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2016-06-23T18:52:27Z teurastaja: or maybe it was just common lisp?
2016-06-23T18:52:35Z ijp: it wasn't
2016-06-23T18:53:01Z teurastaja: :/
2016-06-23T18:53:03Z ijp: maybe you can make the case for original upcased LISP
2016-06-23T18:54:12Z teurastaja: i wish i could find someone here who knows both about scheme and neural networks so i can ask questions about my code
2016-06-23T18:55:20Z teurastaja: for example: WTF is wrong with it?! and questions like that
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2016-06-23T19:00:17Z wasamasa: the most portable GUI system is the browser these days
2016-06-23T19:01:06Z wasamasa: yes, it involves dubiously little lisp, but who cares
2016-06-23T19:01:45Z wasamasa: the rest requires FFI or speaking to a graphical repl
2016-06-23T19:01:51Z wasamasa: see pstk for an example
2016-06-23T19:05:30Z ijp: I always loved the name of pstk
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2016-06-23T19:07:53Z ecraven: wasamasa: parenscript in scheme isn't that hard, and voilá :)
2016-06-23T19:08:02Z ecraven: urlang, I believe, for example
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2016-06-23T19:30:35Z davorb: teurastaja: people say that because back in the day, before AI winter, almost all of the research on AI was done in lisp.
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2016-06-23T19:32:22Z davorb: wtf is pstk?
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2016-06-23T19:33:09Z wasamasa: the portable scheme tk bridge
2016-06-23T19:33:33Z wasamasa: it opens wish/tclsh, then sends tcl to it for creating GUIs
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2016-06-23T19:34:20Z ijp: pronounced 'pisstake'
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2016-06-23T19:36:04Z davorb: i'm thinking about writing a new compiler, as a hobby project. buzz words: web assembly meets lisp meets dependent types
2016-06-23T19:36:29Z ijp: see you in a few months
2016-06-23T19:36:52Z davorb: i've got a few other projects i need to finish first
2016-06-23T19:37:33Z davorb: it's in my huge ideas.org file. but i'll get to it in one or two months.
2016-06-23T19:37:51Z ijp: that's what I said about my haskell compiler
2016-06-23T19:38:02Z contrapunctus: famous last words?
2016-06-23T19:38:17Z davorb: lol.
2016-06-23T19:38:25Z davorb: ijp: how's that coming along?
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2016-06-23T19:39:45Z wasamasa: contrapunctus: we're all here, united by our delusions
2016-06-23T19:40:40Z contrapunctus: wasamasa: :\
2016-06-23T19:41:13Z davorb: there's just so much fun stuff to explore and learn. i don't know wtf normal people are doing, but they must be crazy if they don't find these things interesting.
2016-06-23T19:41:38Z ijp: davorb: I wrote the org file explaining my aims and some of the design decisions...
2016-06-23T19:42:13Z ijp: I don't even know how far it is down the project stack now, probably like 16th
2016-06-23T19:42:17Z davorb: ijp: i'd be interested in reading that. post it to gist, and we'll be able to read it with nice formatting.
2016-06-23T19:42:37Z ijp: I'd really rather not
2016-06-23T19:42:47Z davorb: i respect that :-)
2016-06-23T19:43:39Z wasamasa: hmm
2016-06-23T19:43:47Z ijp: protip: never come up with the project name first
2016-06-23T19:43:56Z contrapunctus: ijp: uh oh.
2016-06-23T19:44:02Z wasamasa: I've made parts of mine public and am very well aware that nobody reads those
2016-06-23T19:44:02Z contrapunctus: why not
2016-06-23T19:44:17Z teurastaja: normal people are boring; geeks rule the world. the choice is easy
2016-06-23T19:44:42Z ijp: contrapunctus: basically all the projects I regret writing have great names and no code
2016-06-23T19:44:43Z contrapunctus: collective fear rules the world
2016-06-23T19:44:49Z ijp: I guess that should be *not writing*
2016-06-23T19:51:55Z teurastaja: one thing missing in this scheme community is an AI faction dont you think?
2016-06-23T19:52:50Z davorb: teurastaja: i might be doing some AI for my master's thesis next year. haven't really decided yet.
2016-06-23T19:53:56Z teurastaja: davorb: 1 year is not enough to make something interesting you should start now. im still trying to teach my computer how to count in binary modulo 8...
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2016-06-23T19:54:50Z teurastaja: im planning my final grade project in 2 years already
2016-06-23T19:55:23Z teurastaja: but its electronics. no one said i cant use scheme on a computer to train the resistors ;)
2016-06-23T19:55:28Z davorb: teurastaja: it's six months full time work, i'll be fine.
2016-06-23T19:56:06Z teurastaja: davorb: you will be fine but if you want to push your limits, time is running!
2016-06-23T19:56:07Z davorb: but yeah, ANNs are on my todo list. maybe i'll do some handwriting recognition this fall?
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2016-06-23T19:57:03Z teurastaja: davorb: great starting project but everyone does that
2016-06-23T19:57:06Z davorb: teurastaja: i used to think like that and got too much stuff on my boat. in the past few years i've learned that you can't do everything at once. you need patience.
2016-06-23T19:57:25Z davorb: teurastaja: yeah, it's just for starting and learning the basics.
2016-06-23T19:57:48Z davorb: i've got a few ideas about computer vision as well
2016-06-23T19:57:54Z teurastaja: great starting project. will you do it in scheme?
2016-06-23T19:58:07Z davorb: teurastaja: for sure. either that, or haskell.
2016-06-23T19:58:20Z davorb: but probably in scheme.
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2016-06-23T19:58:41Z davorb: teurastaja: do you have any suggestions for what I might want to try after that?
2016-06-23T19:59:39Z ijp: teach a computer to feel pain
2016-06-23T19:59:50Z ijp: I recommend a sledgehammer
2016-06-23T20:01:26Z teurastaja: yes. obviously anything involving machine vision is what people do most and what seems easier to do but i feel theres more to it even if its machine vision. you can diagnose cancer patients from x-rays for instance or detect falling patients in a hospital through walls using only wifi. for stuff not involving machine vision let me think
2016-06-23T20:02:28Z teurastaja: language is too complicated unless you invent a turing-equivalent english-like intermediate language
2016-06-23T20:03:42Z teurastaja: oh i know... anomaly detection in network packets for detecting hacking attempts
2016-06-23T20:04:47Z teurastaja: for robots, i intend to do a walking insect
2016-06-23T20:05:12Z teurastaja: but thats probably next year
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2016-06-23T20:06:59Z teurastaja: data compression or maybe encryption
2016-06-23T20:10:08Z teurastaja: if youre into physics and games, the next big thing will be emulating the earth
2016-06-23T20:15:30Z ecraven: turing-equivalent english-like: that would disqualify lojban? :)
2016-06-23T20:15:37Z teurastaja: thatd be lazily evaluated and preseeded of course lest you run out of memory but if you take existing physics engines you may be able to play god however close you want it to be of the real world. you may want to hire a graphist though
2016-06-23T20:17:26Z wasamasa: these will be boring
2016-06-23T20:17:31Z wasamasa: https://eev.ee/blog/2016/06/22/graphical-fidelity-is-ruining-video-games/
2016-06-23T20:17:45Z davorb: teurastaja: i did a course at uni in natural language processing, and it feelt like there has to be a better way to do all of those things. i think NLP today is sort of where ANNs were 20 years ago.
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2016-06-23T20:19:05Z teurastaja: i feel the same way though i have no uni background to understand the deep implications
2016-06-23T20:20:43Z teurastaja: you could also drop the graphics entirely and just provide the bindings
2016-06-23T20:20:58Z teurastaja: and test it on crappy stuff
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2016-06-23T20:29:13Z contrapunctus: wasamasa: where do you get all these insightful blog posts -_-
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2016-06-23T20:29:40Z wasamasa: contrapunctus: well, I use a feed reader and populate its list with blogs I find interesting
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2016-06-23T20:29:47Z wasamasa: contrapunctus: most of it originates from lobsters though...
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2016-06-23T20:30:01Z wasamasa adds another feed
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2016-06-23T20:30:29Z davorb: wasamasa: that was super interesting! give me a sec and i'll show you a super interesting art style (i've got a link in some org file).
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2016-06-23T20:30:53Z wasamasa: I guess this answers why I really like these stylish movies and anime and stuff
2016-06-23T20:30:55Z davorb: wasamasa: https://dukope.itch.io/return-of-the-obra-dinn
2016-06-23T20:31:08Z wasamasa: it's just more enjoyable if you can fully suspend your disbelief
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2016-06-23T20:31:30Z wasamasa: davorb: oh, that one
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2016-06-23T20:31:46Z wasamasa: I like how it's not pure black
2016-06-23T20:32:00Z wasamasa: reminds me of a chapter in jojo #5
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2016-06-23T20:32:58Z wasamasa: where the protagonist enters a weird ship with his sidekicks and investigates just what happened there with the time rewinding abilities of one of his friends
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2016-06-23T20:33:50Z contrapunctus: "If I wanted reality, I could look out my window."
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2016-06-23T20:35:03Z wasamasa: if I wanted reality, I could just stop consuming media
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2016-06-23T20:36:44Z contrapunctus: wasamasa: "Apologies, but part of running a static blog is that the comments are served by Disqus's JavaScript slurry. If it's any consolation, you're probably not missing much. :)"
2016-06-23T20:37:13Z davorb: wasamasa: here are a few quick links to some other "interesting" games https://gist.github.com/davorb/8a1cec6105975a819f42f860691c98d2
2016-06-23T20:37:47Z wasamasa: davorb: thanks!
2016-06-23T20:37:58Z davorb: it's unsorted stuff
2016-06-23T20:38:09Z davorb: but you might find some of it interesting.
2016-06-23T20:38:10Z wasamasa: personally, I'm looking for that kind of stuff, but for vectors
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2016-06-23T20:39:30Z wasamasa: so that I could recreate it with svg data inside emacs
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2016-06-23T20:40:09Z wasamasa: alternatively I could generate faux 3d...
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2016-06-23T20:41:19Z wasamasa: davorb: last link is broken :<
2016-06-23T20:41:56Z davorb: i just discovered that something breaks when I try to link to youtube-stuff in org-mode :'-(
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2016-06-23T20:59:15Z davorb: has anyone tried coq?
2016-06-23T21:18:22Z ijp: sure
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2016-06-24T09:06:20Z davorb: ijp: and what was your impression? is it a "practical" language?
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2016-06-24T16:19:08Z GreySunshine: I created a module test_module.scm (http://paste.lisp.org/display/319117) and a script use_module.scm (http://paste.lisp.org/display/319118). Both module and the script are in the same directory. I tried to run the script with this command "guile use_module.scm". I get this error http://paste.lisp.org/display/319119 , for all I can understand the s
2016-06-24T16:19:09Z GreySunshine: cript is not able access the module. please help!
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2016-06-24T16:58:23Z gwatt: GreySunshine: your module file needs to be in the guile search path
2016-06-24T16:59:11Z gwatt: if you run "GUILE_LOAD_PATH=. guile use_module.scm" does your module work?
2016-06-24T17:01:56Z GreySunshine: can you tell how to do that, is that a command-line argument?
2016-06-24T17:03:23Z teurastaja: well... do you have bash or batch. that is the question
2016-06-24T17:03:38Z GreySunshine: I used it like this "guile GUILE_LOAD_PATH=. use_module.scm ", I have bash
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2016-06-24T17:04:35Z teurastaja: then bootstrap the init script. output: echo $PATH
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2016-06-24T17:05:51Z GreySunshine: well I got this "/usr/local/bin:/usr/local/sbin:/usr/bin:/usr/sbin:/home/nightfury/.local/bin:/home/nightfury/bin"
2016-06-24T17:06:09Z GreySunshine: for the echo
2016-06-24T17:09:13Z GreySunshine: I did this PATH=$PATH:/path/to/dir; export PATH, It does not work
2016-06-24T17:14:15Z GreySunshine: Sorry, I did this now GUILE_LOAD_PATH=$GUILE_LOAD_PATH:/home/nightfury/Code/
2016-06-24T17:14:15Z GreySunshine: sorry, I did this now GUILE_LOAD_PATH=$GUILE_LOAD_PATH:/home/nightfury/Code/
2016-06-24T17:14:15Z GreySunshine: Sorry, I did this now "GUILE_LOAD_PATH=$GUILE_LOAD_PATH:/home/nightfury/Code/" and executed it as "guile use_module.scm".
2016-06-24T17:14:31Z ijp: davorb: practical for what? basically no-one uses it for general purpose use
2016-06-24T17:15:10Z GreySunshine: I am sorry, I pasted it multiple times
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2016-06-24T17:28:43Z gwatt: GreySunshine: GUILE_LOAD_PATH is an environment variable that guile uses to find libraries.
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2016-06-24T17:29:46Z gwatt: GreySunshine: in bourne shell dialects (bash,ksh,zsh?) you can specify additional environment variables for a single command by prefacing the command with VAR=val...
2016-06-24T17:30:53Z GreySunshine: "PATH=$PATH:/some-dir"
2016-06-24T17:31:00Z gwatt: so "GUILE_LOAD_PATH=. guile use_module.scm" tells your shell to set the environment variable GUILE_LOAD_PATH to '.' (the current directory) and then execute guile with that variable in the environment
2016-06-24T17:32:27Z gwatt: GreySunshine: PATH has nothing to do with this right now. THat's a different environment variable that your shell uses to find executables.
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2016-06-24T17:33:08Z GreySunshine: ok, It works now!
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2016-06-24T17:36:05Z GreySunshine: thanks so much!
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2016-06-24T17:40:28Z teurastaja: still struggling to find out how to make a GUI... ugh....
2016-06-24T17:43:42Z jcowan: ijp: What is it that practically no-one uses for general-purpose use?
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2016-06-24T17:51:11Z ijp: jcowan: coq
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2016-06-24T17:51:32Z jcowan: Ah
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2016-06-24T21:27:20Z n_blownapart: hi I have 2 programs for I guess a ternary sort of arithmetic sequence. The 1st is linear recursion where I hand-wrote the output. The 2nd is tail recursion, where the drRacket function trace works fine to make readable output. Is there any diagnostic tool to get clean output from any linear recursive program ? thanks for looking    https://www.refheap.com/120775  ..  https://www.refheap.com/120716
2016-06-24T21:28:30Z n_blownapart: sorry I had that backwards .. the first one is tail recursion visa versa
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2016-06-25T14:11:16Z galex|713: wasamasa: I think realism helps game industries to hierarchize games after designing and computing work instead of making games after creativity, algorithms and enigma, that can’t be easily hierarchizable, thus measurable, thus used to know how to optimize profits.
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2016-06-25T14:16:08Z galex|713: Although a physically simulated world *can* be interesting because of ability to interact with the world, but the whole point is the balance between decoration/rendering and true interaction (the former requiring long and hard work, the second asking creativity and ideas, preferably from a lot of interdependant people instead of a hierarchy of linearly teached workers)
2016-06-25T14:18:42Z galex|713: Also another explanation is games are going more and more to just doing weapon/gun porn, with some harsh-sexism+racism spread all around… I don’t know if that’s a realistic reflect of current human societies of if what I recall to have read about US Army pre-training people to join army/serve/etc. using video games in order to optimize reaction time, fine vision and good hearing
2016-06-25T14:18:42Z galex|713: was realistic…
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2016-06-25T16:07:51Z pjb: galex|713: yes. For example, I've got this permutation puzzle game on iOS, with 3D graphics and animation, very nice, but it's making the iphone hot, consuming so much processing power when I'm thinking…
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2016-06-25T22:02:41Z jcowan: hye ho
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2016-06-25T22:43:50Z noethics: does this seem incorrect? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/S-expression#Parsing
2016-06-25T22:44:16Z noethics: [+, 3, 5] should be [[+, 3], 5] ?
2016-06-25T22:46:16Z ijp: what makes you think that
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2016-06-25T22:46:49Z noethics: that is how it would be interpreted in lambda calculus
2016-06-25T22:47:09Z ijp: so?
2016-06-25T22:47:29Z noethics: so do sexps not implement the lambda calculus?
2016-06-25T22:47:44Z ijp: sexps don't implement anything, it's a data format
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2016-06-25T22:48:57Z noethics: ijp, how would a scheme implementation for example be able to make use of [+, 3, 5]
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2016-06-25T22:49:48Z ijp: (+ 3 5) is a pair whose car is + and whose cdr is (3 5). (3 5) is a pair whose car is 3 and whose cdr is (5). (5) is a pair whos car is 5 and whose cdr is '()
2016-06-25T22:51:11Z ijp: but since you asked about the lambda calculus. That convention for "multiple arguments" is due to currying. Functions which take multiple arguments are expressed in terms of functions of one argument. No well-used lisp does this
2016-06-25T22:51:13Z noethics: so (+ . (3 . (5 . '())))
2016-06-25T22:51:18Z ijp: right
2016-06-25T22:52:42Z ijp: so (f a b c) supplies the arguments a, b, and c to f all at once, and is not equivalent to (((f a) b) c)
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2016-06-25T22:53:35Z noethics: i thought that it used currying under the hood
2016-06-25T22:53:36Z ijp: but that isn't a property of sexps, but how most lisps interpret them
2016-06-25T22:53:58Z ijp: noethics: writing any lisp program would have quickly disabused you of that
2016-06-25T22:54:15Z noethics: i have written scheme programs :'(
2016-06-25T22:54:43Z noethics: but now i don't even see the relation to lambda calculus
2016-06-25T22:54:50Z noethics: it's just silly lists
2016-06-25T22:55:35Z ijp: that's all sexps are. sexps have no relation to the lambda calculus.
2016-06-25T22:55:55Z ijp: programming languages which uses sexps as their base notation may or may not have a relation to it
2016-06-25T22:56:44Z ijp: sexps are the syntax, the lambda calculus may or may not be the semantics
2016-06-25T22:56:55Z jcowan: In any case, Schemes/Lisps implement the applicative order lambda calculus, whereas saying "lambda calculus" by itself usually implies normal order.
2016-06-25T22:56:56Z ijp: writing a lambda calculus is like 10 lines
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2016-06-25T22:57:17Z noethics: an interpreter maybe
2016-06-25T22:57:41Z noethics: i don't believe it's 10 lines to write a parser
2016-06-25T22:58:07Z noethics: or perhaps if you don't make nodes and just use lists it would be
2016-06-25T22:58:26Z ijp: I was taking it as read that sexps are the syntax
2016-06-25T22:59:00Z ijp: maybe another 10 or 20 if you want to handle the multiple arguments and currying conventions
2016-06-25T22:59:30Z noethics: jcowan, i didn't realize there were different orders
2016-06-25T22:59:55Z noethics: i thought lambda calculus was always left associative and had only application and abstractions and expressions
2016-06-25T23:01:30Z noethics: ijp, so to implement the addition function you would use car/cdr instead of lambdas?
2016-06-25T23:01:51Z ijp: I have no idea where you got that from
2016-06-25T23:03:02Z noethics: ijp, to implement an addition function that can be applied like so: (+ 3 5) and returned (8), i was under the impression you would use the list nature of sexps instead of (lambda (x) (lambda (y) .. ))
2016-06-25T23:04:25Z noethics: i guess i didn't understand you before after all
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2016-06-25T23:06:32Z ijp: the main takeaway is that sexps are just a syntax, and don't regroup in a left associative way
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2016-06-25T23:07:41Z jcowan: Also that all parens in Lisp are meaningful, none are just for grouping
2016-06-25T23:08:12Z noethics: i don't know how i managed to write anything in scheme
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2016-06-25T23:16:50Z noethics: why is the car of a list of lambda arguments allowed to not be a procedure
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2016-06-25T23:21:53Z noethics: (lambda (x y) ..) why is x not evaluated as a procedure despite not being quoted?
2016-06-25T23:22:44Z ijp: because lambda is special
2016-06-25T23:22:47Z LeoNerd: Because lambda is one of the special forms
2016-06-25T23:22:56Z noethics: gotcha
2016-06-25T23:23:15Z noethics: thanks, i will just continue reading the spec instead of trying to use something i don't understand ._.
2016-06-25T23:23:33Z noethics: i read through it once but it was a bit arcane
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2016-06-26T04:13:29Z n_blownapart: hello In this sicp problem the output on line 22 is '1 1' . How does scheme know that this is the end of the first recursion of pascal on line 10, before it moves on to the 2nd on line 12 ? And since there is no explicit base case defined, why does the program not hang at that point? thanks https://www.refheap.com/120813
2016-06-26T04:14:12Z n_blownapart: sorry , it moves on to line 11 to the second recursion of pascal, not line 12
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2016-06-26T04:34:22Z noethics: n_blownapart, because row = col at that point
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2016-06-26T04:38:39Z n_blownapart: noethics, thanks for responding! but that would mean that part of the or statement serves as a base case and would terminate. but why doesn't it go into an infinite loop in the state of '1 1'  ?
2016-06-26T04:40:14Z n_blownapart: ^ i.e. I would expect that an explicit base case would need to be set
2016-06-26T04:40:54Z noethics: n_blownapart, i'm not sure why you think that
2016-06-26T04:41:09Z noethics: the procedure exits and returns value 1 when row = col
2016-06-26T04:41:30Z noethics: this value gets added to the expression that was executed the first time the procedure was run
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2016-06-26T04:41:53Z noethics: then the second pascal procedure starts
2016-06-26T04:42:03Z noethics: well the application of it
2016-06-26T04:45:01Z n_blownapart: noethics, please look at line 21-22 . when col hits 0 on line 21, 1 is returned in the column spot on line 22. 1 in the row spot doesn't change, ie the state is not decremented by 1 when 1 is added to the col spot.
2016-06-26T04:47:02Z n_blownapart: I would expect line 22 to be '0 1'
2016-06-26T04:50:50Z noethics: n_blownapart, it's because the value of row is still captured in the initial call to the pascal procedure. all the applications prior to line 23 are from the view of the recursion started on line 10
2016-06-26T04:51:33Z noethics: row can't ever get to 0 based on the previous rules of the cond expression
2016-06-26T04:52:28Z noethics: anyway i'm probably using 100% the wrong terminology i'm learning too :P
2016-06-26T04:55:01Z n_blownapart: no that makes sense, I see that ((< row col) #f) would return #f, but then....why wouldn't it? my problem is, it wasn't defined explicitly to exit line 10 when we hit '1 1'. its merely part of the OR statement. but thanks kindly noethics !
2016-06-26T04:56:21Z noethics: n_blownapart, it doesn't exit on line 10 :P
2016-06-26T04:56:38Z noethics: it's evaluated, then that recursion ends, then the next one starts
2016-06-26T04:57:38Z n_blownapart: not exit the whole program , just that line, I meant
2016-06-26T04:58:06Z noethics: n_blownapart, do you see that the + expression includes both applications of pascal function?
2016-06-26T04:58:35Z n_blownapart: yeah, it sort of binds the two together. I was thinking that...
2016-06-26T04:58:35Z noethics: (+ (pascal (- row 1) (- col 1)) (pascal (- row 1) col))
2016-06-26T04:59:18Z noethics: the first call to pascal starts a whole recursion up to line 22. it "waits" until all that is done, and then it falls through to the next call to pascal
2016-06-26T04:59:34Z noethics: and in that frame of reference the row is still 5
2016-06-26T05:05:56Z n_blownapart: noethics, got it. still, I am legitimately perplexed: if the first part of the OR statement, (= col 0) , returns one, and the first pascal recursion continues, as in the case of lines 19-20, how does scheme know that it is the *2nd* part of the OR statement that serves as the base case. I thought in an OR statement there is neutrality between the two sides of the OR.
2016-06-26T05:08:21Z noethics: n_blownapart, i'm too impatient to look at it again :P if you think there is something you don't understand about the ordering you can check the spec
2016-06-26T05:08:32Z noethics: look up r7rs scheme report
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2016-06-26T05:08:55Z n_blownapart: noethics, thanks for your time. have a good weekend
2016-06-26T05:09:04Z noethics: n_blownapart, np you too :)
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2016-06-26T10:32:06Z mejja: rudybot: With pork versus beef, they both have different-looking fat patterns. That’s what we train the computer to do.
2016-06-26T10:32:10Z rudybot: mejja: what about pork and beef... is that a salad?
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2016-06-26T14:25:27Z BW^-: did anyone implement a whole CPS layer atop Scheme, with serialization and deserialization?
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2016-06-26T14:39:10Z noethics: BW^-, what would that look like?
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2016-06-26T14:58:57Z Kooda: BW^-: i’m not sure what you’re looking for, but CHICKEN is a Scheme that translates the whole code into CPS.
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2016-06-26T15:07:32Z noethics: i'm writing a simple scheme implementation. is it normal for parsers to treat special forms directly in the parser?
2016-06-26T15:08:23Z noethics: it would make the parser less elegant but evaluating/code gen easier
2016-06-26T15:08:52Z pierpa: it is not normal
2016-06-26T15:08:53Z noethics: i'm not sure if there's a standard way of doing it, maybe some academic paper on scheme parsing?
2016-06-26T15:09:46Z noethics: pierpa, so would there be a separate stage for translating special forms?
2016-06-26T15:10:28Z pierpa: the parser parses. I don't understand what else you are asking it to do
2016-06-26T15:11:53Z noethics: pierpa, so for example because sexps are lists i don't currently need any special type of node. ['lambda', ['x', 'y'], ['+', 'x', 'y']]. but the parser doesn't make the (x y) arguments into a special type of node.
2016-06-26T15:12:26Z noethics: although most other forms would cause it to apply x
2016-06-26T15:12:28Z pierpa: you are talking about intermediate representations in a compiler?
2016-06-26T15:12:30Z noethics: yes
2016-06-26T15:12:40Z pierpa: that's not what is meant by parsing
2016-06-26T15:13:13Z pierpa: and there's no connection between parsing and evaluating
2016-06-26T15:13:22Z noethics: in parsers i've written for other complex languages the parser output an ast in which nodes contained special data depending on the type of node
2016-06-26T15:13:28Z pierpa: the parser does not evaluate anything
2016-06-26T15:13:38Z noethics: i understand that..
2016-06-26T15:14:19Z noethics: my question is do current scheme implementations create complex asts or do they do codegen inline
2016-06-26T15:14:24Z pierpa: since in scheme the same parser is used both for code and data, you should write a parser for data, which then reuse also for code
2016-06-26T15:14:59Z noethics: i guess that makes sense, so i should stick to not having meta data in the ast
2016-06-26T15:15:00Z pierpa: the problem you are asking about comes later, after parsing
2016-06-26T15:15:12Z noethics: in other languages it comes during parsing
2016-06-26T15:15:28Z pierpa: yes, now I understand what yu mean
2016-06-26T15:16:36Z noethics: i wonder is there a term for reifying the ast or whatever
2016-06-26T15:16:46Z noethics: in scheme, to give it extra data in a static context
2016-06-26T15:17:31Z pierpa: I'd call them 'intermediate representations
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2016-06-26T15:23:02Z noethics: it's so easy to serialize the 'ast' i have currently :o it's weird..
2016-06-26T15:23:12Z noethics: it's not even an ast
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2016-06-26T15:27:03Z pierpa: :)
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2016-06-26T15:33:12Z jcowan_: Some Schemes never do generate an AST in the sense you mean: they just keep transforming the source code until it is simple enough to correspond directly to assembly language (or byte code)
2016-06-26T15:33:50Z jcowan_: others cut over at some point from list structure to a tree of typed nodes
2016-06-26T15:34:09Z noethics: this is what i'm used to and was planning to do
2016-06-26T15:34:17Z noethics: i wonder if there's some paper i can read about the former method?
2016-06-26T15:34:28Z jcowan_ is now known as jcowan
2016-06-26T15:37:07Z jcowan: mumble.net/~kelsey/papers/comp-by-prog-trans.ps.gz
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2016-06-26T15:41:14Z noethics: jcowan, thank you
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2016-06-26T15:55:03Z pierpa: And if you are willing to get a book, the best reference is Lisp in Small Pieces.
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2016-06-26T16:00:58Z jcowan: But be prepared to pay through the nose for it
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2016-06-26T16:07:25Z noethics: some kind soul scanned it
2016-06-26T16:07:27Z noethics: thanks
2016-06-26T16:09:55Z jcowan: oooh, cool.  Where?
2016-06-26T16:13:16Z noethics: jcowan, can you see this? https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B_LSNo77MBITeDZSTVV6WnVGZDQ/view
2016-06-26T16:13:33Z noethics: if you want it yourself kat.cr/lisp-in-small-pieces-t1417907.html
2016-06-26T16:14:51Z jcowan: Snarfed from your first URL.  Thank you!  Very shiny.
2016-06-26T16:15:34Z jcowan: I borrowed Pierre Lacaze's signed hardcopy for a few weeks
2016-06-26T16:15:40Z jcowan: but this is better
2016-06-26T16:15:52Z noethics: :D
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2016-06-26T16:16:32Z Kooda has the french 2nd edition
2016-06-26T16:23:51Z pierpa has the English first (and only?)
2016-06-26T16:25:05Z jcowan: Whenever he mentions Meroon in any of his articles he always calls it something like "the popular MEROON".  I have to wonder if it's really popular with anyone except his students.
2016-06-26T16:25:32Z noethics: who's `he`?
2016-06-26T16:25:42Z noethics: christian queinnec?
2016-06-26T16:26:15Z noethics: pierpa, if it was english then why does this one say it's a translation ._.
2016-06-26T16:26:32Z pierpa: I think Merron has never been popular. Some nice ideas in it, though.
2016-06-26T16:26:38Z pierpa: Meroon
2016-06-26T16:27:30Z jcowan: noethics: yes
2016-06-26T16:27:43Z pierpa: The original is written in French. Then has been translated in English. Then there has been a second French edition, which afaik has not been translated in English. But the difference should be minimal & trivial.
2016-06-26T16:28:03Z noethics: ohh i see
2016-06-26T16:28:38Z noethics: how come i've never heard of it? everywhere just says read sicp
2016-06-26T16:29:02Z noethics: because it's specific to interpreters/compilation?
2016-06-26T16:29:13Z jcowan: Because even the Kindle version is USD 77
2016-06-26T16:29:24Z noethics: oh heh
2016-06-26T16:29:52Z pierpa: they are different books
2016-06-26T16:30:08Z noethics: i take it based on the few people that chimed in this one is canonical
2016-06-26T16:30:15Z pierpa: SICP is about programming. LiSP is about Lisp implementation.
2016-06-26T16:30:54Z noethics: sicp stresses lisp so much
2016-06-26T16:31:14Z pierpa: And LiSP assume one already knows both programming and scheme
2016-06-26T16:31:41Z noethics: every other paragraph is "as you now know, we use the semantics of the language to do great things"
2016-06-26T16:31:48Z jcowan: SICP uses Scheme to illustrate general principles of programming because (assuming you don't know any PLs) the barriers are low for learning Scheme
2016-06-26T16:32:18Z noethics: i know quite a few imperative languages and a couple functional ones and i think scheme is extremely complex in comparison :P
2016-06-26T16:32:27Z jcowan: The trouble is that every toddler knows Python er sumpn today
2016-06-26T16:32:59Z noethics: i'm just learning scheme though so it may just click for me at some point
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2016-06-26T16:33:47Z noethics: the intense use of recursion and continuations is hard to reason about
2016-06-26T16:34:09Z pierpa: which functional languages do you know compared to which scheme is extremely complex?
2016-06-26T16:34:29Z noethics: scala
2016-06-26T16:34:38Z pierpa: (  :O
2016-06-26T16:34:38Z noethics: if you consider python functional i guess
2016-06-26T16:35:14Z pierpa: first time I hear Scala mentioned as simpler than something else :)
2016-06-26T16:35:31Z noethics: scala inherits oop and other shitty things from java
2016-06-26T16:35:42Z noethics: it makes reasoning about state simple. the only complexity is in the type system
2016-06-26T16:35:53Z pierpa: still...
2016-06-26T16:36:52Z noethics: scala is definitely complex :P i don't mean to say it's simpler as a language
2016-06-26T16:37:12Z noethics: but doing useful things with it to me at the moment is simpler
2016-06-26T16:37:54Z pierpa: that depends on the libraries that you have easily available
2016-06-26T16:39:40Z noethics: that's probably part of it yeah
2016-06-26T16:40:24Z noethics: i'm trained to think recursion is shit
2016-06-26T16:41:04Z noethics: but i think that thinking is limiting. and that's why i chose scheme, due to the extensive use of tail calls
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2016-06-26T16:41:11Z pierpa: you need to be deprogrammed, then  :)
2016-06-26T16:41:55Z noethics: i'm not sure i could use any lisp seriously while not knowing there's TCO :P
2016-06-26T16:43:00Z pierpa: it can be done. But with PTC is much better (I prefer Proper Tail Calls to TCO)
2016-06-26T16:43:17Z noethics: i didn't know they were mutually exclusive
2016-06-26T16:43:25Z noethics: i thought PTC made TCO trivial
2016-06-26T16:44:05Z pierpa: mine is a terminological difference. Not implying any difference
2016-06-26T16:44:13Z noethics: ah ok
2016-06-26T16:44:15Z pierpa: -difference+preference
2016-06-26T16:44:31Z pierpa: as, is not an optimization
2016-06-26T16:45:40Z noethics: not sure i understand. basically my understanding is that scheme's control structures enforcing proper tail calls means that it's really easy for a compiler to perform tco. since any case of recursion is in the context of a tail call
2016-06-26T16:46:49Z pierpa: Normally, optimizations are something optional, with no semantic impact. Not so in this case.  For this reason I think the term TCO is not very good.
2016-06-26T16:47:13Z noethics: right, it's part of the semantics of the language too. that's the part i don't understand yet i guess
2016-06-26T16:47:46Z noethics: pretty obvious what paradigm i come from :D
2016-06-26T16:48:10Z pierpa: do you know the "ultimate" papers?
2016-06-26T16:48:20Z noethics: no
2016-06-26T16:48:52Z pierpa: http://c2.com/cgi/wiki?LambdaTheUltimate
2016-06-26T16:49:38Z pierpa: http://library.readscheme.org/page1.html  in particular 'the ultimate imperative'
2016-06-26T16:50:23Z pierpa: but probably SICP explains it better than these foundational papers
2016-06-26T16:51:14Z noethics: sicp is interesting but it's not really what i want from a book
2016-06-26T16:51:25Z noethics: the way it's written is not ideal for me
2016-06-26T16:51:35Z pierpa: hmmm
2016-06-26T16:52:05Z noethics: it sort of evangelizes everything
2016-06-26T16:52:10Z noethics: it's a waste of words
2016-06-26T16:52:40Z pierpa: I found it the ideal format, instead. Try the 'ultimate imperative', then and see if it suits better your taste
2016-06-26T16:53:09Z noethics: if i just wanted to read 600 pages to learn scheme then i would read sicp
2016-06-26T16:53:18Z noethics: i'm more interested in implementing scheme than using it
2016-06-26T16:53:42Z pierpa: `sicp is not about teaching scheme. It would be a lousy book if this was its goal
2016-06-26T16:53:57Z noethics: what's your thought on the goal of the book?
2016-06-26T16:54:07Z ecraven: noethics: and how do you plan to implement something you are not actually willing to understand/learn?
2016-06-26T16:54:10Z pierpa: the goal is teaching programming and software engineering
2016-06-26T16:54:29Z noethics: but i believe i know programming :( and have a degree in se
2016-06-26T16:54:58Z pierpa: ok. Then maybe it's not the book for you.
2016-06-26T16:55:00Z noethics: ecraven, my plan was to go from the spec and implement it
2016-06-26T16:55:42Z pierpa: BUT you said you don't understand how PTC is important, so SICP still has things to teach you.
2016-06-26T16:55:57Z ijp: ecraven: it's never stopped anyone before
2016-06-26T16:56:46Z noethics: pierpa, that's true
2016-06-26T17:07:00Z noethics: okay just reading this: http://repository.readscheme.org/ftp/papers/ai-lab-pubs/AIM-353.pdf
2016-06-26T17:07:06Z noethics: it looks amazing
2016-06-26T17:09:00Z pierpa: it is!
2016-06-26T17:10:10Z pierpa: that was 40 years ago.  And now we have php and js. That's progress.
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2016-06-26T17:12:43Z jcowan: "Nothing will be done without the bloodiest blows."  --David Lindsey
2016-06-26T17:13:14Z jcowan: That is to say, PTCs are currently in JS.next, but they may be out again with another random shift in the cosmos
2016-06-26T17:13:38Z LeoNerd: I keep reading that as "positive temperature coefficient" - what's PTC here?
2016-06-26T17:14:00Z noethics: no browser has plans to implement actual PTC fwiw
2016-06-26T17:14:06Z ecraven: ijp: true, that :)
2016-06-26T17:14:29Z noethics: it was supposed to be in es6 but they don't care enough as the head of tc39 thinks no one cares about ptc
2016-06-26T17:14:45Z ecraven: is it called PTC now, not TCO any more?
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2016-06-26T17:15:06Z noethics: in the proper es6 draft it was called ptc
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2016-06-26T17:17:06Z ijp: ecraven: people have used the terminology "proper tail calls/recursion" for a fair while, probably going back to Clinger
2016-06-26T17:17:20Z noethics: it's used extensively in r7rs
2016-06-26T17:17:30Z noethics: dunno about previous reports as i didn't read them ;O
2016-06-26T17:19:20Z ecraven: ijp: indeed, but I've never before seen PTC as an abbreviation
2016-06-26T17:19:32Z ecraven: might be entirely my fault :)
2016-06-26T17:20:18Z pierpa: sounds like a new kind of plastic polymer :)
2016-06-26T17:21:32Z ijp: ecraven: me neither, but say anything often enough...
2016-06-26T17:22:16Z ijp: #emacs is basically my Acronym Of The Day™ calendar
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2016-06-26T17:32:12Z jcowan: The phrase "properly tail recursive" goes back to at least R2RS (1985)
2016-06-26T17:32:40Z jcowan: R0RS and R1RS are not readily searchable, because scanned paper
2016-06-26T17:32:46Z ecraven: jcowan: has anyone used the acronym PTC for it?
2016-06-26T17:32:56Z jcowan: Not that I've seen
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2016-06-26T17:36:43Z jcowan: Well, except TC39
2016-06-26T17:37:07Z jcowan: The traditional Prolog term was LCO, last call optimization.  Most Prologs support it.
2016-06-26T17:37:52Z noethics: https://github.com/tc39/proposal-ptc-syntax
2016-06-26T17:37:59Z ecraven: just found that.. brilliant idea :p
2016-06-26T17:38:02Z jcowan: You can call it what you like, but "optimization" and "recursion" are bad words to use, because they imply a more limited form
2016-06-26T17:38:23Z ecraven: "thousands of people have implemented it in their toy schemes, but how could *any* JS engine get it right??"
2016-06-26T17:38:54Z noethics: how do those toy schemes handle making debugging easier?
2016-06-26T17:39:04Z ijp: ecraven: I disagree with that premise
2016-06-26T17:39:05Z noethics: it does mangle stack traces in my experience
2016-06-26T17:39:21Z noethics: it seems like a legitimate concern
2016-06-26T17:39:56Z ecraven: noethics: the debugging concerns I agree with
2016-06-26T17:40:16Z noethics: is there any way to actually do it?
2016-06-26T17:40:29Z noethics: basically you have to add some instrumentation or turn it off?
2016-06-26T17:42:04Z jcowan: Can't find it now, but there's a great blog post about tail calls vs. stack traces
2016-06-26T17:42:21Z jcowan: the background for which is a Java stack trace that repeats the same call over and over and over
2016-06-26T17:42:24Z jcowan: thousands of times
2016-06-26T17:42:45Z noethics: those stack traces suck though
2016-06-26T17:42:55Z jcowan: http://funcall.blogspot.com/2011/03/tail-recursion-and-debugging.html
2016-06-26T17:42:56Z noethics: anyone actually debugging the jvm would use jvmti tooling
2016-06-26T17:42:57Z jcowan: that's it
2016-06-26T17:42:58Z ijp: jcowan: jrm's blog
2016-06-26T17:43:54Z jcowan: As I pointed out there, Chicken's last call trace is in fact pretty useful as a replacement for a classic stack trace
2016-06-26T17:44:59Z noethics: seems like chicken made some compromise
2016-06-26T17:45:10Z noethics: how pragmatic :3
2016-06-26T17:45:42Z wasamasa: I dunno
2016-06-26T17:45:49Z jcowan: Yes and no.  It implements amortized PTC, which is perfectly legal
2016-06-26T17:45:50Z wasamasa: I find it rather useless
2016-06-26T17:46:16Z ijp: there are some real debuggability concerns. The last call in a Guile script is (or was) a tail call, which sometimes led to confusion
2016-06-26T17:46:20Z wasamasa: after all, it shows the last calls which is not necessarily traces to the culprit that earns me a crash
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2016-06-26T17:46:49Z wasamasa: at times like this I use gdb and check whether it's something on the C side
2016-06-26T17:47:19Z noethics: i don't really understand the value of C generation
2016-06-26T17:47:27Z noethics: why not use chez?
2016-06-26T17:47:58Z wasamasa: I was speaking of CHICKEN
2016-06-26T17:48:02Z wasamasa: as for why not chez, duh
2016-06-26T17:48:12Z noethics: duh what :o
2016-06-26T17:48:14Z wasamasa: speed is not everything and r6rs not my cup of tea either
2016-06-26T17:48:19Z noethics: i see
2016-06-26T17:48:24Z ijp: also it was nonfree until very recently
2016-06-26T17:48:30Z ijp: in both senses
2016-06-26T17:48:31Z wasamasa: so I'd rather have the community and ecosystem of CHICKEN
2016-06-26T17:48:38Z wasamasa: also, good C interop
2016-06-26T17:48:41Z noethics: why do you capitalize chicken
2016-06-26T17:48:44Z noethics: is it supposed to be
2016-06-26T17:48:47Z wasamasa: yes
2016-06-26T17:48:50Z noethics: ok
2016-06-26T17:49:10Z ijp: it's got to stand out somehow, I suppose
2016-06-26T17:49:28Z noethics: i liked chez ffi but i didn't do anything significant
2016-06-26T17:49:43Z noethics: having it literally interop with c would be weird though
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2016-06-26T17:50:50Z noethics: the nonfree thing sucks, but i started using/learning scheme only recently so i don't see a problem with startng with chez
2016-06-26T17:51:06Z noethics: i've heard people don't like r6rs though
2016-06-26T17:51:30Z noethics: i wonder why
2016-06-26T17:52:08Z ijp: inherited hate
2016-06-26T17:52:08Z ecraven: read r6rs, then read r5rs or r7rs, they are very different
2016-06-26T17:52:18Z noethics: i've read r7rs
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2016-06-26T17:52:35Z noethics: and used r6rs via chez. i noticed some of the procedure calls are different
2016-06-26T17:52:44Z ecraven: then you're halfway through the list :)
2016-06-26T17:52:58Z ijp: number of people that hate r6rs vastly outnumbers the people that have ever looked at it
2016-06-26T17:53:01Z ecraven: some names are different, some procedures have the same name, yet do entirely different things
2016-06-26T17:53:06Z ecraven: ijp: that too :)
2016-06-26T17:53:48Z noethics: would it be feasible to update chez to r7rs i wonder
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2016-06-26T17:54:18Z ecraven: noethics: some of that would be trivial, some rather hard
2016-06-26T17:54:28Z ecraven: I don't think it's a priority for the main developers
2016-06-26T17:55:22Z noethics: i saw in the issues people had a problem with the tooling requiring x ;D
2016-06-26T17:55:30Z noethics: and the devs were just like :'(
2016-06-26T17:55:35Z noethics: i felt bad
2016-06-26T17:57:31Z noethics: such trivial things people care about
2016-06-26T17:57:43Z ecraven: well, running it on a server and needing X are a hassle
2016-06-26T17:57:54Z noethics: why would you run it on a server though
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2016-06-26T18:12:14Z ecraven: chez?
2016-06-26T18:12:21Z ecraven: well, probably to run server processes? web stuff?
2016-06-26T18:16:08Z noethics: ecraven, why would you use the chez development environment in that context lol
2016-06-26T18:16:25Z noethics: binaries it produces doesn't require x obviously
2016-06-26T18:16:43Z ecraven: noethics: why wouldn't you? it's a decent implementation with very good speed?
2016-06-26T18:17:06Z noethics: ecraven, because you can compile a binary for the target system
2016-06-26T18:17:22Z ecraven: we have quite a few virtual servers for database access and stuff here, that don't have X
2016-06-26T18:17:34Z noethics: what's a virtual server?
2016-06-26T18:17:35Z ecraven: I wouldn't want to move binaries to them, instead of just developping *on* them :)
2016-06-26T18:17:48Z noethics: you develop on production systems?
2016-06-26T18:18:01Z noethics: that's insanity ._.
2016-06-26T18:18:02Z ecraven: no, staging systems with access to separated hosts
2016-06-26T18:18:13Z ecraven: not every system can access every database or service
2016-06-26T18:18:34Z ecraven: anyway, this is not about development process, but about the need to sometimes run chez on a system without X, in my eyes a legitimate wish
2016-06-26T18:18:51Z noethics: seems like a bad workflow
2016-06-26T18:19:09Z noethics: i think removing x for this purpose is silly
2016-06-26T18:19:16Z noethics: i'd rather better tooling for development
2016-06-26T18:19:34Z ecraven: that is a very legitimate point of view, just like the other :)
2016-06-26T18:19:39Z ecraven: you want better tooling, others want other things
2016-06-26T18:19:43Z noethics: :'(
2016-06-26T18:19:44Z ecraven: no-one is paying anything, so the devs decide
2016-06-26T18:20:25Z ecraven: for instance, it would be very cool if chez provided a way to get at the argument list of arbitrary procedures, for inspection purposes.. it doesn't, but that's just the way it is
2016-06-26T18:22:09Z noethics: ecraven, `(inspect yourpoc)`?
2016-06-26T18:23:08Z ecraven: noethics: try it, it doesn't work for every procedure.. try on compiled self-defined, try on imported predefined, try on primitive
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2016-06-26T23:12:08Z hwkng: is there a nice way to obfuscate scheme code? I have a scheme-interpreter written in JS; but I don't want the client to read my scheme code natively; I want to obfuscate the scheme code a bit so it's nontrivial to reverse engineer
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2016-06-26T23:19:38Z mikeyhc: why would you want that?
2016-06-26T23:20:32Z ijp: omfg they steal mai codez
2016-06-26T23:20:45Z ijp: just do whatever you'd do in another language
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2016-06-26T23:30:56Z hwkng: with other langauges, I just compile it
2016-06-26T23:31:09Z hwkng: but here, I have a js scheme interpreter interpreting my scheme code
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2016-06-26T23:32:19Z mikeyhc: you can compile scheme into relatively unreadable JS
2016-06-26T23:32:50Z mikeyhc: or you could trivially write a program that renames everything in your source unhelpfully
2016-06-26T23:33:13Z mikeyhc: but this seems like its something you should solve with licensing
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2016-06-26T23:59:25Z zacts: hi #scheme
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2016-06-27T00:17:14Z noethics: hwkng, are you looking for a solution out of the box or a way to do it yourself?
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2016-06-27T01:40:57Z retroj: taylan: i just sent a pull request to your github for scheme-bytestructures.  let me know if it came through
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2016-06-27T04:28:16Z n_blownapart: hi I've had trouble getting the output of this sicp problem. I made an alias to follow the output. I dont see how line 28 of the output would be (2pascal 42). https://www.refheap.com/120847
2016-06-27T04:28:48Z n_blownapart: correction (2pascal 4 2)
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2016-06-27T06:17:24Z wasamasa: I still don't get why you'd study someone else's solutions to SICP problems
2016-06-27T06:17:39Z wasamasa: it defeats the learning purpose of writing the solutions yourself after all...
2016-06-27T06:18:34Z wasamasa: every single solution from whoever wrote these isn't quite idiomatic scheme
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2016-06-27T08:42:53Z taylan: retroj: thanks, merged
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2016-06-27T13:45:39Z retroj: taylan: thanks!
2016-06-27T13:50:14Z retroj: taylan: i'm getting close to having bytestructures ported to chicken.  one thing that chicken will need is a version number on the project.  what i often do is to put a file in the project root that gives the version number, either bare (so that it can be read by anything that needs it) or as a scheme file with (define version "1.0.0")
2016-06-27T13:57:30Z taylan: retroj: feel free to open an issue on github so I don't forget about this.  I'll look into it later.  thanks for the porting effort :)
2016-06-27T14:00:36Z retroj: taylan: okay
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2016-06-27T15:27:46Z ecraven: [r7rs-benchmarks] new run, fancy new table: https://ecraven.github.io/r7rs-benchmarks/benchmark.html
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2016-06-27T15:45:01Z retroj: ecraven: nice!
2016-06-27T15:45:15Z ecraven: thanks :)
2016-06-27T15:45:43Z retroj: ecraven: does the lightning icon mean too fast to measure?
2016-06-27T15:45:53Z retroj: :-P
2016-06-27T15:45:56Z retroj: crash
2016-06-27T15:46:05Z ecraven: retroj: hehe, that would be nice!
2016-06-27T15:46:14Z ijp: maybe you could replace it with the windows icon
2016-06-27T15:46:15Z ecraven: I'm open to any suggestions for better icons from font awesome
2016-06-27T15:48:30Z gwatt: so there are only 4 schemes that can actually do all the tests.
2016-06-27T15:49:57Z retroj: 5
2016-06-27T15:50:40Z gwatt: i'm counting petite as chez
2016-06-27T15:50:48Z retroj: ah
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2016-06-27T15:52:27Z ecraven: gwatt: sometimes that's my fault, for not setting up the preludes correctly :-/
2016-06-27T15:52:42Z ecraven: I haven't had the time to investigate everything yet
2016-06-27T15:52:49Z gwatt: ah, fair enough.
2016-06-27T15:53:30Z ecraven: one day, I'd like to create some sort of "r7rs coverage" test suite :)
2016-06-27T15:53:41Z ecraven: "does this implementation support that part of r7rs"
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2016-06-27T16:27:00Z taylan: ecraven: Kawa has an R7RS test suite, but not comprehensive I think
2016-06-27T16:30:38Z taylan: ecraven: thanks for the awesome benchmarks :)
2016-06-27T16:31:04Z taylan: I can't wait for Guile to get native compilation; it will hopefully become one of the faster implementations then
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2016-06-27T17:25:55Z gwatt: guile 2.1 is consistently faster than guile 2.0, so it's definitely improving.
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2016-06-27T17:52:44Z ecraven: look at stalin :O quite a lot better than chez even https://ecraven.github.io/r7rs-benchmarks/benchmark.html
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2016-06-27T17:53:54Z gwatt: unfortunately it only works on 2/3 the tests
2016-06-27T17:55:34Z gnomon: Never mind the correctness, look at the speed!
2016-06-27T17:59:40Z ecraven: gnomon: it's a benchmark, after all :p
2016-06-27T18:01:40Z wasamasa: what stalin is that, the one installable from the egg index?
2016-06-27T18:01:50Z ecraven: yes
2016-06-27T18:01:53Z ecraven: chicken-stalin
2016-06-27T18:02:04Z ecraven: hm.. might be worth making that more clear, without having to look in ./bench
2016-06-27T18:02:27Z ecraven: I tried to keep things reproducible, and I couldn't get an arch linux pkgbuild for stalin proper working
2016-06-27T18:02:36Z ecraven: by the way, any obvious schemes I'm missing?
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2016-06-27T18:03:10Z wasamasa .oO(Cheezy Scheme?)
2016-06-27T18:03:34Z wasamasa: nah, just joking
2016-06-27T18:03:47Z wasamasa: it's an implementation in elisp
2016-06-27T18:03:48Z ecraven: :p https://github.com/emacsmirror/czscm
2016-06-27T18:05:45Z wasamasa: I'm still shocked it's less than a thousand lines of code
2016-06-27T18:06:06Z ecraven: well, starting at elisp, things are easier than, say, C
2016-06-27T18:06:29Z wasamasa: granted, it does leave out lots of things
2016-06-27T18:06:31Z ecraven: oh, some of the stalin compile errors are actually compile timeouts, not errors
2016-06-27T18:06:39Z wasamasa: hahaha
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2016-06-27T18:08:50Z ecraven: I didn't actually implement a check for that, as no other compiler hits that limit, I think
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2016-06-27T18:17:20Z Kooda: ecraven: stalin is awesome but *VERY* slow. :)
2016-06-27T18:17:43Z Kooda: It thinks a long time about the program. ;)
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2016-06-27T18:32:24Z edgar-rft: Lets create [H]orrible [I]mplementation with [T]otally [L]ame [E]valuation [R]esults Scheme and fight Stalin
2016-06-27T18:37:28Z wasamasa: no
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2016-06-27T18:37:57Z ijp: the stalin name is in bad taste as it is without giving it company
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2016-06-27T19:41:08Z noethics: ecraven, i find your comparison between chez and stalin sort of weird :P
2016-06-27T19:41:31Z noethics: stalin takes 99 years to compile. chez uses the nanopass framework afaik
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2016-06-27T19:48:54Z ecraven: noethics: how does that invalidate the comparison?
2016-06-27T19:49:11Z ecraven: as you yourself suggested yesterday, what counts is executable runtime :)
2016-06-27T19:50:30Z taylan: to be honest I'm surprised stalin isn't *that* much better than Chez, despite doing whole-program optimization and lard knows what time/size complexity its optim algos have
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2016-06-27T19:52:31Z noethics: ecraven, true :P i don't think i suggested that but i do somewhat favour that view. i definitely value compile time though
2016-06-27T19:53:01Z noethics: perhaps a compile time benchmark would help analyze the tradeoffs
2016-06-27T19:53:19Z ecraven: noethics: so do I. I'd rather use chez than stalin
2016-06-27T19:53:47Z ecraven: noethics: that is very hard to do, how do you time "compile time"? some schemes cannot just "compile", but compile automatically at runtime
2016-06-27T19:53:58Z ecraven: but otherwise, certainly a good idea
2016-06-27T19:57:45Z noethics: ecraven, yeah i'm not sure. maybe it would be an optional metric depending if it's doable with a particular scheme
2016-06-27T19:58:16Z noethics: i agree it's super difficult though
2016-06-27T19:58:32Z noethics: i would probably write a lot of different test cases and benchmark each one
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2016-06-27T20:01:29Z pierpa: you can measure the time for going to source code in a file to a result output.
2016-06-27T20:01:46Z pierpa: *from source code in a file
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2016-06-27T21:36:44Z n_blownapart: hi, if you have an OR operator where both sides are returning 1 if true, how does the OR statement know where the output goes when there are 2 places to be incremented? https://www.refheap.com/120847
2016-06-27T21:37:51Z n_blownapart: I wrote an alias where you can see the output from 2 separate calls to pascal; see lines 21-28
2016-06-27T21:38:44Z ijp: I don't understand the question. Have you been substituting like I showed you?
2016-06-27T21:39:47Z ijp: your questions keep betraying a weird imperative mental model
2016-06-27T21:40:05Z n_blownapart: yes ijp, I understand about 95 percent of the output. lines 21 and 23 increment '1 0' and '1 1' to get (2pascal 4 2)
2016-06-27T21:40:34Z n_blownapart: but in each case ...
2016-06-27T21:41:07Z n_blownapart: the or statement knows where to put 1 , whether the first condition in OR is met or the 2nd.
2016-06-27T21:41:45Z ijp: the or doesn't put anything anywhere
2016-06-27T21:41:58Z n_blownapart: So there is a mechanism where (= col 0) and (= row col) each know where the output goes? is that correct?
2016-06-27T21:42:40Z n_blownapart: please let me reword my question:
2016-06-27T21:43:04Z ijp: (if #t foo bar) => foo ; (if #f bar) => bar ; These are the substitution rules for if
2016-06-27T21:43:16Z ijp: and cond is a really weird if
2016-06-27T21:43:40Z n_blownapart:  ok thanks one moment please ..
2016-06-27T21:44:35Z n_blownapart: I understand that . still, a single OR statement has two conditions. somewhere the program knows when to increment row, and when to increment col.
2016-06-27T21:44:39Z n_blownapart: ijp
2016-06-27T21:45:14Z n_blownapart: because a truth condition being met on either side of the OR is merely returning 1
2016-06-27T21:45:45Z n_blownapart: but somewhere a distinction is made , depending on which condition is met
2016-06-27T21:48:19Z n_blownapart: so if (= col 0) #t , that output of 1 goes to increment the row parameter, not the col parameter. If lines 21-23 comments are correct
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2016-06-27T21:50:21Z n_blownapart: line 28 shows the newly increment parameters for the next recursion. 21-23 's comments are the only reasonable way I could see it happening.
2016-06-27T21:50:31Z n_blownapart: *incremented
2016-06-27T21:51:05Z n_blownapart: or should I say not parameters , but state variables
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2016-06-27T21:52:39Z ijp: you've completely lost me
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2016-06-27T21:54:41Z n_blownapart: very sorry. my comments on line 21 - 23 show how the return values are added to pascal and 2pascal
2016-06-27T21:56:17Z n_blownapart: so pascal it at (pascal 1 0) then 3 is added to the row state to get (pascal 4 0) . on line 23, 1 is added to the col state , making the new state variables at (2pascal 4 2).
2016-06-27T21:56:50Z n_blownapart: is*
2016-06-27T21:57:53Z ijp: Substitute, don't try and make up assignments
2016-06-27T21:58:16Z ijp: it's doomed to failure
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2016-06-27T21:59:50Z n_blownapart: but what I did there is essentially substitution, isnt it?
2016-06-27T22:00:05Z n_blownapart: or incrementing the variables
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2016-06-27T22:01:22Z wasamasa: n_blownapart: is that your own code?
2016-06-27T22:01:29Z wasamasa: n_blownapart: if no, start writing your own code
2016-06-27T22:01:57Z ijp: your questions are always of the same flavour
2016-06-27T22:02:04Z n_blownapart: the first part I looked up. the else statement I figured out before looking at the solution.
2016-06-27T22:02:33Z ijp: god knows where you picked this mental model up from
2016-06-27T22:03:17Z n_blownapart: may I just ask, my comments are correct I believe because between 21 - 28 the addition - the increments - all pan out on line 28
2016-06-27T22:03:24Z ijp: as long as you think of it as mutation, you are going to struggle to understand how any form that makes two recursive calls with the same argument works
2016-06-27T22:03:52Z ijp: because you'll think of one as feeding the other, when they should have been independent
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2016-06-27T22:09:41Z ijp: wasamasa: I doubt it, 1.12 is to write code implementing it
2016-06-27T22:10:50Z noethics: stupid question: when was `labels` removed?
2016-06-27T22:11:30Z ijp: it wasn't removed, it was reinterpreted as letrec
2016-06-27T22:12:04Z ijp: (you can still find it in cl and elisp)
2016-06-27T22:12:53Z ijp: I suspect that happened about r2rs
2016-06-27T22:13:19Z n_blownapart: what I'm saying is each side of the OR statement serves as a base case. so outputs of 1 either go to pascal , incrementing row, or 2pascal , incrementing col. is that incorrect ?
2016-06-27T22:13:27Z noethics: it's hard to follow the original papers without having info about labels
2016-06-27T22:13:34Z noethics: is letrec semantically equivalent?
2016-06-27T22:13:35Z ijp: n_blownapart: no mutation is happening
2016-06-27T22:14:40Z ijp: noethics: syntactically different, but basically semantically equivalent
2016-06-27T22:15:34Z noethics: okay thanks
2016-06-27T22:15:39Z ijp: (labels ((foo (a b c) bar) (baz (e f g) zot)) wop) => (letrec ((foo (lambda (a b c) bar)) (baz (lambda (e f g) zot))) wop)
2016-06-27T22:16:00Z noethics: was this done to make it more explicit?
2016-06-27T22:16:07Z n_blownapart: ijp please correct my comments on lines 21-23 to reflect the mutation happening there. I just want to visualize it.
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2016-06-27T22:17:40Z ijp: noethics: not sure. With letrec the rhs doesn't have to be a lambda
2016-06-27T22:17:46Z noethics: n_blownapart, can i offer some of my shitty advice?
2016-06-27T22:18:19Z ijp: so you can have plain data on the rhs, or even "recursive" data with e.g. delay
2016-06-27T22:18:30Z ijp: rudybot: (require srfi/41)
2016-06-27T22:18:31Z rudybot: ijp: Done.
2016-06-27T22:18:38Z noethics: i know you've been stuck on this problem for a few days. i think you should move on. it's a pretty complex recursion and you may just have something click if you move on and come back to it
2016-06-27T22:18:38Z n_blownapart: I appreciate earlier help. noethics
2016-06-27T22:18:51Z ijp: rudybot: (letrec ((ones (stream-cons 1 ones))) (stream->list ones 10))
2016-06-27T22:18:51Z rudybot: ijp: error: stream->list: non-stream argument
2016-06-27T22:18:56Z ijp: rudybot: (letrec ((ones (stream-cons 1 ones))) (stream->list 10 ones))
2016-06-27T22:18:56Z rudybot: ijp: ; Value: '(1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1)
2016-06-27T22:19:55Z noethics: that's what i would do anyway. or change the problem until i realize what i don't understand really is
2016-06-27T22:20:10Z n_blownapart: noethics: word . thanks . the irony is, writing the recursive part, once I saw the cond statement in a solution, came quickly to me. that is the easy part. then seeing how it actually evaluates opened a can of worms.
2016-06-27T22:20:28Z dTal: you keep mentioning "variables" and "state"
2016-06-27T22:20:40Z dTal: I don't see either of those
2016-06-27T22:21:02Z ijp: n_blownapart: you seem to think that the arguments to the recursive calls are being effected by what is returned by other recursive calls. This is not so.
2016-06-27T22:22:00Z ijp: if you did the substitution this thought would never have occurred, it's a product of chance and the trace
2016-06-27T22:22:25Z dTal: actually do temporary symbol bindings count as "variables"? I never thought to ask
2016-06-27T22:22:57Z ijp: sure, just don't confuse variables with their names or you'll mix levels
2016-06-27T22:23:15Z n_blownapart: really chance ? I was thinking of the changes in terms of variable state, but I guess that is wrong. that is in a linear recursion AFAIK
2016-06-27T22:23:23Z noethics: in the papers i've been reading they're still considered local variables to the interpreter
2016-06-27T22:23:28Z ijp: think of them as fresh with every recursive call
2016-06-27T22:23:55Z noethics: but in schemeland itself i'm not sure if that's semantically equivalent
2016-06-27T22:24:22Z ijp: n_blownapart: it would still be wrong in that case, but it wouldn't be confusing
2016-06-27T22:25:20Z noethics: i still have yet to understand how scheme manages to do unbounded recursions in every case
2016-06-27T22:25:24Z noethics: or if it even does
2016-06-27T22:26:06Z n_blownapart: really what I'm looking for is a way to hand write it out; I've done it pretty well recently. the fact the there is no explicit base case set, and the OR statement fulfills that, is confusing me.
2016-06-27T22:26:38Z noethics: is `base case` a scheme term i'm unaware of?
2016-06-27T22:26:58Z ijp: noethics: pretty standard for recursion/induction
2016-06-27T22:27:27Z ijp: n_blownapart: I've shown you how to write substitutions before, try it
2016-06-27T22:27:31Z noethics: what is meant by that? i see `#f` and `1` as base cases
2016-06-27T22:27:51Z ijp: a base case is a case that does not recur
2016-06-27T22:27:59Z noethics: right okay
2016-06-27T22:28:22Z noethics: so `1` is the base case of that or expression
2016-06-27T22:28:35Z noethics: or of the recursion when the or expresson is satisfied
2016-06-27T22:28:42Z ijp: well, you'd say the whole clause ((< row col) #f) is a base case
2016-06-27T22:28:50Z n_blownapart: the OR statement functions like two separate base cases. so I wanted to know how the return value of 1 knows where to find its homes.
2016-06-27T22:28:52Z ijp: ditto for the next one
2016-06-27T22:29:19Z ijp: I'm going to show how to do the substitution one last time
2016-06-27T22:29:41Z n_blownapart: YAY !!!
2016-06-27T22:29:49Z ijp: note the keyword *last*
2016-06-27T22:29:55Z n_blownapart: you rule !!
2016-06-27T22:33:25Z noethics: n_blownapart, do you understand how it's sort of like if(col == 0 || row == col) return 1?
2016-06-27T22:33:44Z n_blownapart: yes I can read ruby a bit
2016-06-27T22:34:02Z noethics: oh do you know any other languages well?
2016-06-27T22:34:18Z n_blownapart: hell no but I know what that roughly means
2016-06-27T22:34:27Z noethics: interesting
2016-06-27T22:34:36Z noethics: i'm surprised you understand this at all then :P
2016-06-27T22:35:03Z n_blownapart: I have a very analytic mind, but it is on the wrong track presently
2016-06-27T22:35:05Z noethics: i don't think i'd have a chance at sicp if i was starting from scratch
2016-06-27T22:35:31Z ijp: http://shift-reset.com/pastes/pascal.html
2016-06-27T22:35:48Z n_blownapart: thanks ijp ! looking ...
2016-06-27T22:36:23Z ijp: no mutation, just straight replacing with definitions
2016-06-27T22:37:25Z ijp: please reread the first two sections, the substitution model is really simple
2016-06-27T22:37:32Z noethics: i wonder if sicp defines/explains what an environment is
2016-06-27T22:37:38Z ijp: noethics: chapter 3
2016-06-27T22:37:50Z noethics: isn't this recursion in chapter 2 though :'(
2016-06-27T22:37:56Z ijp: chapter 1
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2016-06-27T22:38:18Z noethics: seems like the reader would lack the necessary knowledge to understand it then
2016-06-27T22:38:30Z ijp: noethics: they don't introduce environments until mutation is required. For the first two chapters the simpler substitution model is used
2016-06-27T22:38:39Z noethics: i see
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2016-06-27T23:27:42Z n_blownapart: ijp I understand your expansions. where you wrote ;; simplify (+ (pascal 1 0) (pascal 1 1), that is the final results (+ 1 1) for the program, but you went through to show that (pascal 1 0) is ;; 0 = 0  -> 1 . but at the point where you wrote ;; simplify, the interpreter already knows to return 1 .. since (= col 0) .. so the following expansion is for the reader, to show that (pascal 1 0) resolves to 0 = 0 -> 1.
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2016-06-28T04:51:13Z jcowan: R7RS-large Red Edition voting has begun!
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2016-06-28T06:08:57Z ecraven: whee!
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2016-06-28T06:11:15Z jcowan grins
2016-06-28T06:11:22Z jcowan: I look forward to lots and lots of ballots coming in
2016-06-28T06:11:36Z jcowan: meanwhile I am reading about the Kings of Belgium
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2016-06-28T16:04:32Z soegaard: Hi All. Here is an example of how the current Scheme highlighter on Github colors square parentheses as an error:  https://github.com/cisco/ChezScheme/blob/master/examples/power.ss
2016-06-28T16:05:07Z soegaard: Are anybody interested in contacting Github about this?
2016-06-28T16:05:26Z wasamasa: I've done this before for elisp and found it enough of a pain to not do it again
2016-06-28T16:05:40Z wasamasa: yes, they expect you to fix their xml syntax highlighting files
2016-06-28T16:06:27Z soegaard: I did it for Racket, but it would be better if someone made a list of keywords in r*rs + chicken + chez + ...
2016-06-28T16:06:34Z soegaard: For reference: https://github.com/soegaard/racket-highlight-for-github
2016-06-28T16:06:48Z wasamasa: https://github.com/github/linguist/issues/1767
2016-06-28T16:07:00Z soegaard: However the square parentheses are what annoys me the most.
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2016-06-28T16:08:06Z wasamasa: my guess is they're using https://github.com/textmate/scheme.tmbundle
2016-06-28T16:09:17Z wasamasa: which does have a block about illegal parentheses :>
2016-06-28T16:09:31Z soegaard: That repo is referenced from here, so I think you are correct. https://github.com/github/linguist/tree/master/vendor/grammars
2016-06-28T16:09:40Z soegaard: On purpose?
2016-06-28T16:09:58Z wasamasa shrugs
2016-06-28T16:10:31Z wasamasa: it could be something different like mismatching parentheses
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2016-06-28T16:15:17Z davorb: there should be an issue about this in the linguist repo.
2016-06-28T16:16:28Z davorb: ah, yeah https://github.com/github/linguist/issues/1717#issuecomment-63840083
2016-06-28T16:17:37Z davorb: oh, that issue was opened two years ago. that can't be right.
2016-06-28T16:17:53Z soegaard: that issue is for Racket - and was closed when I submitted a new grammar
2016-06-28T16:18:26Z davorb: soegaard: i was referring to that particular comment, which said "Note that Scheme files still highlights square brackets as an error"
2016-06-28T16:18:35Z soegaard: Ah!
2016-06-28T16:19:00Z davorb: you should at least open a new issue about it. i suspect that they forgot all about that, and aren't even aware of the problem anymore.
2016-06-28T16:19:04Z soegaard: I guess that the Racket grammar could be used as a grammar for Scheme too. Replacing the keyword list would be a good thing though.
2016-06-28T16:19:08Z soegaard: Not me.
2016-06-28T16:19:24Z davorb: Fine, I'll do it. :P
2016-06-28T16:19:29Z soegaard: And I am almost sure they don't want to fix it themselves.
2016-06-28T16:20:19Z soegaard: But maybe that has changed. At the time all languages switched to their new system, so they probably had a lot of PRs then.
2016-06-28T16:21:57Z davorb: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volunteer%27s_dilemma
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2016-06-28T16:24:49Z davorb: https://github.com/github/linguist/issues/3089
2016-06-28T16:25:31Z noethics: possibly because square brackets aren't actual scheme? :)
2016-06-28T16:26:41Z davorb: noethics: afaik they were added in r6rs
2016-06-28T16:27:01Z noethics: according to the r7rs spec there is no square brackets in the alphabet
2016-06-28T16:27:09Z noethics: but that is the only spec i've read
2016-06-28T16:27:29Z pierpa: +1 for the github highlighter! square brackets are an abhomintation
2016-06-28T16:29:44Z zwdr: http://www.r6rs.org/final/html/r6rs/r6rs-Z-H-7.html#node_sec_4.3
2016-06-28T16:29:58Z zwdr: states that square brackets are standard as well
2016-06-28T16:30:32Z pierpa: a standard abhomination then :)
2016-06-28T16:31:01Z zwdr: well! I'm not taking a stance here, just pointing at it ;)
2016-06-28T16:32:37Z zwdr: >[ ] { } Left and right square and curly brackets (braces) are reserved for possible future extensions to the language.
2016-06-28T16:32:56Z zwdr: is what r7rs says
2016-06-28T16:33:17Z noethics: yes, it's not at all defined in the syntax in r7rs
2016-06-28T16:33:30Z noethics: only that comment about them being reserved is repeated twice
2016-06-28T16:33:47Z noethics: which seems to me to imply you couldn't use them for syntax transforms either
2016-06-28T16:34:18Z zwdr: yea, looks like it
2016-06-28T16:36:38Z noethics: r6rs really seemed like the perl6 of scheme ;P
2016-06-28T16:36:46Z LeoNerd: Definitely
2016-06-28T16:36:48Z noethics: but then r7rs was like "just kidding"
2016-06-28T16:37:15Z zwdr: I believe splitting it up in a small core language and a larger language is a nice idea
2016-06-28T16:37:29Z noethics: me too. for implementation purposes
2016-06-28T16:37:36Z zwdr: so purists still have their scheme, but you can still have all the nice stuff for real-world programming
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2016-06-28T16:39:36Z noethics: it's really unfortunate chez is r6rs. it seems like the obvious choice technology wise
2016-06-28T16:39:52Z noethics: i hope it gets a bump to r7rs at some point
2016-06-28T16:40:36Z zwdr: I'd be surprised if it doesn't!
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2016-06-28T16:41:35Z pierpa: it depends on whether Dibvyg thinks r7 is an improvement over r6 or not, I guess
2016-06-28T16:42:12Z pierpa: if not, then someone will have to fork to have r7
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2016-06-28T16:42:31Z noethics: i would love to take on such a project in my free time, but i'm afraid it's way over my head :P
2016-06-28T16:42:49Z pierpa: I'm afraid it is :)
2016-06-28T16:42:58Z noethics: one day.. ;p
2016-06-28T16:43:22Z pierpa: :)
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2016-06-28T16:49:07Z ijp: noethics: for a sufficiently weak interpretation of perl6
2016-06-28T16:49:37Z noethics: ijp, i didn't mean to insult perl6 or users of it :) just that it is radically different
2016-06-28T16:49:47Z ijp: it really isn't radically different
2016-06-28T16:50:00Z jim: hi... I have a scheme program, it makes essentially a list of (what I call) notes... and I wonder how it's possible to sort them... I'll show you the program... you can run it to produce the list, and I'll also show you the overall result
2016-06-28T16:50:08Z noethics: well neither is r6rs, it adds some extra syntax and renames some procedures afaik
2016-06-28T16:50:23Z noethics: radically different from an innocent perl5 user's perspective
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2016-06-28T16:54:58Z noethics: jim, are you going to show it :)
2016-06-28T16:55:13Z jim: the git repo is here: https://github.com/jwlynch/rests-to-duration
2016-06-28T16:56:18Z jim: I should have put a readme in there, but it's pretty easy... I have drivers for particular exercises
2016-06-28T16:57:03Z jim: if you don't have lilypond, I have some pdf output to demo it
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2016-06-28T16:57:40Z jim: or even if you do... I'll try to make it as easy as possible
2016-06-28T16:59:08Z jim: the one I wanted to show first,
2016-06-28T17:02:40Z jim: first take a look at a couple pdfs, they're comparable: http://jam.sessionsnet.org:8000/files/view/lily-output/3-attacks-in-44-time-16ths.pdf and http://jam.sessionsnet.org:8000/files/view/lily-output/3-attacks-in-44-time-16ths-raw.pdf
2016-06-28T17:02:41Z rudybot: http://teensy.info/pBGNriNAnj
2016-06-28T17:02:41Z rudybot: http://teensy.info/NLQxGeVNTn
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2016-06-28T17:03:50Z jim: the first one is some extra processing done on (an intermediate result of) the second one
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2016-06-28T17:06:27Z jim: what you'd be looking at, are two musical scores, the second of which shows exactly 16 "objects", three are 16th notes and the rest are 16th rests
2016-06-28T17:09:09Z noethics: this looks cool
2016-06-28T17:09:25Z jim: essentially what I want to do is sort the bars, and have them appear in an order that kinda makes sense
2016-06-28T17:10:38Z jim: noethics, I kinda made up my own "note with duration" object, which could either be a note or a rest, and which has a specific duration
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2016-06-28T17:13:00Z jim: I'm trying to figure out how to show you the list
2016-06-28T17:17:01Z noethics: jim, i'm just learning scheme. i just asked to see it because it's the freenode philosophy "don't ask to ask" :)
2016-06-28T17:17:18Z noethics: i may be able to help but i only know about code. i don't know anything about music
2016-06-28T17:17:31Z jim: don't worry, someone will be here
2016-06-28T17:17:31Z noethics: and a bit of dsp :p
2016-06-28T17:18:34Z jim: do you want to watch the first SICP video? in there, abelson spends some time teaching all the rules of scheme
2016-06-28T17:18:39Z noethics: jim, i think if you could frame your question in terms of specific code you want to add or change
2016-06-28T17:19:09Z noethics: oh no i'm not a novice programmer or anything, and i know scheme syntax and things. i just don't have the semantic down
2016-06-28T17:19:17Z noethics: semantics*
2016-06-28T17:20:05Z jim: at the fundamental level, the semantics are easy... what are you looking at at the moment?
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2016-06-28T17:22:52Z noethics: environments and continuations
2016-06-28T17:23:01Z noethics: is my main source of pain
2016-06-28T17:24:05Z noethics: i can read and understand code that uses basic ones but i'm at the point where i still count the brackets in long expressions :P
2016-06-28T17:24:29Z noethics: so heavy use of call/cc and stuff is hard to grasp
2016-06-28T17:24:30Z jim: oh so do I
2016-06-28T17:25:23Z jim: I don't think you'll ever stop counting.. especially when you're trying to understand code someone else wrote
2016-06-28T17:25:57Z ijp: it drops drastically though
2016-06-28T17:26:19Z noethics: i hope so :)
2016-06-28T17:26:42Z noethics: i'm also interested in implementations of scheme, so i've been spending more time trying to understand environments fundamentally
2016-06-28T17:27:00Z noethics: and also tail recursion
2016-06-28T17:27:46Z noethics: i keep getting side tracked though by things i find interesting. to be honest scheme is amazing
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2016-06-28T17:29:02Z jim: I'm kinda strange... on the one hand I understand how eval works... on the other, I still haven't used things like map/eval/apply/others in my code at all yet, and can't quite grasp them... some of the code in the git repo I posted uses some of that, I didn't write some of those funcs, and I don't quite grasp
2016-06-28T17:30:42Z noethics: yeah exactly
2016-06-28T17:30:56Z noethics: those procedures are part of my learning curve
2016-06-28T17:31:21Z noethics: but the crazy thing is the use of tail recursion to have unbounded recursion
2016-06-28T17:31:34Z noethics: it's basically combinatorics
2016-06-28T17:31:52Z noethics: combinatorial logic*
2016-06-28T17:34:13Z jim: I went thru the sicp stuff, got to the end parts where they were presenting various kinds of eval... I typed in the code and got it to work
2016-06-28T17:34:44Z noethics: i think you missed the fundamental insanity (in a good way) of scheme then :P
2016-06-28T17:35:01Z noethics: or maybe i'm overestimating its potential
2016-06-28T17:35:09Z jim: that only means I understand very basic scheme tho
2016-06-28T17:36:04Z noethics: did you read all of sicp?
2016-06-28T17:36:49Z noethics: i think sicp is a far different gear than what i care about. you care about applying scheme for cool things. i'm more interested in the formal mathematics behind it
2016-06-28T17:37:30Z noethics: sort of like the difference between physics and pure maths ;)
2016-06-28T17:39:25Z jim: yeah, and I'll tell ya, I was horrible at physics
2016-06-28T17:39:39Z noethics: in this analogy you would be the physicist :3
2016-06-28T17:40:18Z jim buries head in sand and throws all physics books on top
2016-06-28T17:40:26Z noethics: :)
2016-06-28T17:40:39Z noethics: jim, so you're interested in musical theory then?
2016-06-28T17:40:48Z noethics: do you want to try to explain what you're trying to do?
2016-06-28T17:40:50Z jim: yeah
2016-06-28T17:41:14Z jim: you could see the bars in the pdfs...
2016-06-28T17:41:17Z jim: yes?
2016-06-28T17:41:26Z noethics: yeah
2016-06-28T17:42:03Z jim: I don't want to change the bars themselves, but change the order they appear in... I want to define a way of sorting them
2016-06-28T17:42:25Z noethics: in your code, where is the data structure for a bar defined?
2016-06-28T17:43:07Z jim: well I didn't actually define a bar... but it's just a list of these note things
2016-06-28T17:43:42Z jim: I did define what a note is tho...
2016-06-28T17:43:42Z noethics: well you should make them first class if you want to end up sorting them
2016-06-28T17:43:57Z noethics: if the bars are lists, then that is your data structure
2016-06-28T17:44:05Z jim: yep
2016-06-28T17:44:19Z noethics: and so what do you want to sort them by?
2016-06-28T17:45:34Z jim: did you see how the third 16th note starts out near the beginning of the bar, then in the next bar, it's at the end, and walks back one 16th at a time?
2016-06-28T17:46:48Z noethics: in the raw version, right?
2016-06-28T17:47:24Z jim: that may be hard to see... yeah, in the raw (well therefor also in the nonraw, but it's much harder to see there)
2016-06-28T17:47:39Z noethics: yes i see
2016-06-28T17:49:26Z jim: I think what I want to do is have the 16th walk towards the right till it gets to the end... then in the bar following that, it would go note, rest, note, note, then the last note walks to the right
2016-06-28T17:49:48Z jim: (right now it's walking left from the end)
2016-06-28T17:50:26Z noethics: so is it not the bars that you want to sort?
2016-06-28T17:50:55Z jim: well, yes it is, but by their content
2016-06-28T17:51:54Z noethics: i understand. but for me it helps to think about the bars as objects instead of worrying about the notes or what happens to them
2016-06-28T17:52:34Z jim: yeah, that;s a good way to think of them in how the overall result is formed...
2016-06-28T17:52:36Z noethics: to clarify, the rests are the thing called semiquavers on this, right? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rest_(music)
2016-06-28T17:53:16Z jim: yep
2016-06-28T17:53:33Z jim never got into the quaver thing :)
2016-06-28T17:53:37Z noethics: is the raw music you have here generated by your program? or is it strictly an input?
2016-06-28T17:54:24Z jim: it produces input for something called lilypond, which produces a typeset musical score
2016-06-28T17:55:44Z noethics: okay
2016-06-28T17:55:59Z jim: I produce something lilypond reads
2016-06-28T17:56:06Z noethics: i understand.
2016-06-28T17:56:22Z noethics: i was just wondering if instead of sorting, if you could generate it in the order you want
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2016-06-28T17:56:41Z noethics: this would be more efficient. but it doesn't really matter
2016-06-28T17:56:42Z jim: yeah I thought abotu that
2016-06-28T17:57:13Z jim: I pushed that down in priority because it would require I change the generator
2016-06-28T17:57:44Z noethics: it really depends how generic you want this to be imo
2016-06-28T17:58:21Z noethics: i think by schemes nature this could be incredibly generic and good
2016-06-28T17:58:34Z noethics: ie. give it the ability to accept arbitrary generator functions, and arbitrary sorting functions
2016-06-28T17:59:54Z noethics: if that's not a goal of yours, then could you point me to exactly where in the code you would insert the sorting function
2016-06-28T18:00:57Z jim: at the point of the generator it's pretty generic... I give the generator my raw "this is a 16th note" and raw "this is a 16th rest"; at that level it could be 3 blue socks and 13 red socks... and the output could be sock drawers
2016-06-28T18:01:29Z noethics: by 16th do you mean 16th bar or 16th object in the entire sequence
2016-06-28T18:01:35Z noethics: or 16th object in the bar
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2016-06-28T18:03:09Z jim: hmm, that can have a couple meanings... a "16th note" would be a note that's struck, and held down for a period of time equal to the time represented by 16th of the time of the entire bar
2016-06-28T18:03:48Z noethics: in this format is there only up to 16 objects in a bar
2016-06-28T18:04:01Z jim: correct
2016-06-28T18:04:12Z noethics: okay i understand
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2016-06-28T18:05:16Z jim: I have this other part of the program, that adds up the durations of the note and the rests that follow it, and replace it with a single note which is that long
2016-06-28T18:05:26Z noethics: this is super cool
2016-06-28T18:05:35Z jim: which is what you see in the non-raw pdf
2016-06-28T18:07:20Z noethics: jim, so is it easier for the sorting to occur before you make these transformations
2016-06-28T18:07:33Z jim: yes
2016-06-28T18:07:51Z jim: and it's easy to get a list of the bars in that for'
2016-06-28T18:07:53Z jim: m
2016-06-28T18:08:00Z noethics: jim, this is the implementation right https://github.com/jwlynch/rests-to-duration/blob/master/apps/3-attacks-in-44-time-16ths.scm
2016-06-28T18:08:00Z rudybot: http://teensy.info/tCoUwzdvyB
2016-06-28T18:08:13Z noethics: could you just do your sorting there?
2016-06-28T18:08:35Z noethics: it wouldn't be the best but that is where i would write it to start instead of giving it an abstraction
2016-06-28T18:08:38Z jim: yeah, and that's what I'm thinking I could do
2016-06-28T18:08:56Z noethics: if you could generalize it to other formats then you could lift it out of there
2016-06-28T18:10:49Z jim: probably I'd define how it would be sorted, and then think about how to generalize that... the idea being if I could get one workign, I can fumble around and generalize that to some or all of the other cases
2016-06-28T18:11:32Z noethics: so right here: (list (list (mk-note 1/16 'g 0) 3) (list (mk-rest 1/16) 13))
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2016-06-28T18:12:22Z noethics: this is saying make 3 notes and 13 rests, and the arrangement procedure is what gives it its order?
2016-06-28T18:12:57Z jim: if the quicksort algorithm is available, I would then just need to zoom out and generalize
2016-06-28T18:13:57Z jim: noethics, yes... arrangement spews out all the bars with those elements (all combos thereof)
2016-06-28T18:14:32Z jim: yeah, the order is buried somewhere in arrangement
2016-06-28T18:15:09Z noethics: so you have a permutation of every bar with 3 notes and 13 rests, which ends up being a list of bars, which are a list of notes
2016-06-28T18:15:25Z jim: so what I was thinking, was sorting the output of arrangement
2016-06-28T18:15:37Z noethics: i really think generating it in the proper order is the better way to do this
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2016-06-28T18:16:19Z noethics: or are you trying to always have that same order and then apply different sorting algorithms to the list of bars?
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2016-06-28T18:18:01Z noethics: i'm wondering what your end goal is
2016-06-28T18:18:11Z jim: well one suggestion was sort it in such a way it's fun to play... and I thought, wow, if I could do that, this could make a good product for musical educ
2016-06-28T18:18:22Z noethics: is a list of every permutation of 1/16 3 note and 13 rest arrangement is useful
2016-06-28T18:18:37Z noethics: uh that wasn't even english
2016-06-28T18:18:41Z noethics: my bad :D
2016-06-28T18:18:51Z jim: but that's highly challenging
2016-06-28T18:18:55Z noethics: in what way is this specific permutation useful?
2016-06-28T18:19:10Z noethics: i mean the entire list of combinations
2016-06-28T18:19:30Z jim: each permutation is one bar of 4/4 time (at 16-note density)
2016-06-28T18:19:43Z noethics: but every bar is distinct?
2016-06-28T18:20:12Z noethics: this is basically a closed set?
2016-06-28T18:20:36Z jim: right, each bar is distinct... but, two adjacent rests (for example) when reversed doesn't change the bar
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2016-06-28T18:21:37Z noethics: i think you could generate, directly, what you want. without this permutation
2016-06-28T18:21:55Z noethics: unless i'm not understanding the point of this operation
2016-06-28T18:22:22Z jim: the function that generates the different permutations is arrangement]
2016-06-28T18:22:28Z noethics: yeah
2016-06-28T18:22:48Z noethics: but what's the point of it if your goal is to come up with playable music
2016-06-28T18:23:20Z noethics: i think the transforms are GREAT, the essence of scheme. but maybe start with a more useful base of note/rest arrangements
2016-06-28T18:23:51Z jim: well, "practicable"... it's somewhat desirable to have the "next" bar be somewhat predictable
2016-06-28T18:24:15Z noethics: right but i don't think you need this entire permutation to come up with an algorithm that's predictable
2016-06-28T18:24:51Z jim: you could be rigth about that
2016-06-28T18:26:36Z noethics: basically your thinking is like. take the entire set of things and then arrange it in such a way that it's useful. but if you know how to do that you already know the way in which to generate it like that from scratch
2016-06-28T18:27:28Z noethics: it would be like enumerating numbers from 1-9999999999999 and then grouping all the odd numbers instead of starting at 1 and adding by 2
2016-06-28T18:32:43Z jim: yes, your characterization of my thinking is correct...
2016-06-28T18:33:15Z noethics: a direct solution isn't possible for every problem
2016-06-28T18:33:48Z noethics: but you can usually use heuristics to come up with a more efficient solution than going from an entire closed set of things
2016-06-28T18:34:10Z noethics: i think you should think about what your real goal is and how you should achieve it
2016-06-28T18:35:34Z jim: the other part of my thinking which I may not have expressed... is, the arrangement func does work, and you could say I'm being lazy in the sense I don't want to put the arrangement functin on the work bench since it's doing its job correctly... and I can even leave it more or less as is and work with the output similarly as is...
2016-06-28T18:36:17Z noethics: you could keep that arrangement function for other purposes :P
2016-06-28T18:36:32Z jim: true
2016-06-28T18:37:18Z jim: so you're saying I could write a different arrangement function that also outputs in the order I want
2016-06-28T18:37:58Z noethics: yup
2016-06-28T18:38:21Z jim: to be continued... I need to run a few errands, should be back in an hour or two
2016-06-28T18:38:30Z noethics: seeya :)
2016-06-28T18:38:50Z jim: yep, have fun
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2016-06-28T20:17:49Z jcowan: I have a job at 1010data.com
2016-06-28T20:22:59Z fantazo: how do schemers remember the different srfis? I mean they are all numbers basically. srfi-1, srfi-19, etc.
2016-06-28T20:33:44Z z0d: fantazo: I don't think they memorize it
2016-06-28T20:34:09Z fantazo: z0d, I hope not.
2016-06-28T20:40:39Z ijp: fantazo: you remember the most common ones
2016-06-28T20:40:52Z ijp: 1,9,41, etc.
2016-06-28T20:41:25Z ijp: but if you asked me "hey ijp what's srfi 76" I'd have no idea
2016-06-28T20:42:41Z fantazo: and how do people write libraries which need to deal with different scheme implementations and different module systems?
2016-06-28T20:42:46Z taylan: ijp: might be the macro one :P
2016-06-28T20:42:52Z taylan checks
2016-06-28T20:43:07Z taylan: nope, it's the R6RS records one, withdrawn
2016-06-28T20:43:20Z taylan: I was probably thinking of 78
2016-06-28T20:43:21Z ijp: fantazo: they don't
2016-06-28T20:43:32Z taylan: nope I'm still wrong.  I'll stop now.
2016-06-28T20:43:58Z ijp: I wonder what oeis gives as the next number in that sequence
2016-06-28T20:44:02Z taylan: fantazo: nontrivial task but see e.g. Industria for an R6RS example and bytestructures for an R7RS example
2016-06-28T20:44:38Z ijp: https://oeis.org/A050635 look out for SRFI 1209
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2016-06-28T20:45:31Z taylan: https://github.com/taylanub/scheme-bytestructures works on Chibi, Gauche, Kawa, and Larceny through their support for R7RS library syntax, and additionally I ... guess they lost interest :P
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2016-06-29T22:52:21Z jcowan: Vote, Vote, Vote!
2016-06-29T22:52:34Z LeoNerd: How Bad Could It Go?
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2016-06-29T22:52:42Z LeoNerd British
2016-06-29T22:54:22Z pierpa: uh? it's time to vote for #scheme's president again?
2016-06-29T22:54:46Z jcowan: No, to vote for R7RS-large Red Edition
2016-06-29T22:54:52Z pierpa: ah!
2016-06-29T22:56:32Z jcowan: http://trac.sacrideo.us/wg/wiki/RedEditionBallot is a frozen version of the ballot, with a link to the Google Form where you can actually vote (no Google account required).
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2016-06-29T23:12:10Z Menche: what does Red Edition mean?
2016-06-29T23:12:51Z Menche: oh, just the data structures section?
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2016-06-29T23:19:36Z jcowan: Yes.  There will then be Orange, Yellow, Green, Blue ... editions
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2016-06-29T23:20:30Z jcowan: until we reach the final or Ultra-Violet Edition, currently completely invisible
2016-06-29T23:21:23Z turbofail: the new ultraviolet catastrophe
2016-06-29T23:22:23Z jcowan: Hopefully not.
2016-06-29T23:23:11Z jcowan: So the Scheme community must decide what data structures (and which versions of them, in some cases) it wishes to see part of the standard.
2016-06-29T23:23:43Z jcowan: Data structures are easy to start with because they have portable implementations, so implementers can write their own code, layer over their own existing stuff, or just import the SRFI implementations.
2016-06-29T23:23:57Z jcowan: So the barriers to entry are low.  Later editions will be more demanding in this respect.
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2016-06-30T03:11:13Z xyh: hi foof /
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2016-06-30T08:13:21Z xyh: hi foof, how is workshop 2016?
2016-06-30T08:13:34Z xyh: are you reviewing papers?
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2016-06-30T19:03:12Z makufiru: Can someone link me some good resources for understanding continuations? I'm still having the hardest time trying to understand them. The only things I've picked up is that a lot of people think "Undelimited continuations" are bad and that I should only use "delimited continuations"
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2016-06-30T19:09:01Z ijp: focus on continuation-passing-style
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2016-06-30T20:53:30Z pierpa: makufiru: try this page http://matt.might.net/articles/by-example-continuation-passing-style/  and other pages on the topic on the same site.
2016-06-30T21:07:25Z makufiru: so as far as I can understand, a continuation is just saying "here's a procedure. Instead of returning back to your caller, break off and start doing all of this instead."
2016-06-30T21:09:05Z makufiru: also thanks for the link pierpa
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2016-06-30T21:10:02Z soegaard: makufiru: Read the classics: http://www.cs.indiana.edu/~dfried/appcont.pdf
2016-06-30T21:14:42Z makufiru: yeah I was going to say I'm pretty confused at what happens to the call stack
2016-06-30T21:16:09Z ijp: it morphs into a call tree
2016-06-30T21:16:45Z ijp: well, not quite, that probably sounds like it implies multiprocessing
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2016-06-30T21:19:53Z makufiru: ijp: I was reading through the irc history and stumbled on your website. Am I correct in assuming from the name (shift-reset) that you're also of the opinion that delimited continuations are better?
2016-06-30T21:21:14Z ijp: naturally
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2016-06-30T21:37:29Z makufiru: Okay another problem I've had is trying to verify whether that was true because there are all sorts of papers and blogs about call/cc and not too many mention reset and shift.
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2016-06-30T21:50:08Z makufiru: So are delimited continuations just the (go-when) and (right-now) forms from the "Implementing go-when and right-now" section of this post? http://matt.might.net/articles/programming-with-continuations--exceptions-backtracking-search-threads-generators-coroutines/
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2016-06-30T22:17:45Z Hijiri: I want to implement a Scheme VM in Lua 5.1 as part of a lisp machine mod for Minetest. Since players will be inputting code, I would like to have control over use of memory and computational power, so that at each step of computation, I can do an estimate of how many "computational units" (an invented relative measure of cost) the step will take, and also determine if the allowed memory use has been exceeded.
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2016-06-30T22:18:47Z Hijiri: I would like to eventually support macros and related facilities, and call-cc
2016-06-30T22:18:58Z Hijiri: as an incomplete list
2016-06-30T22:19:08Z Hijiri: Are there any implementations I can look at for reference, or papers or things?
2016-06-30T22:20:25Z Hijiri: If I was in Lua 5.2+ I could use ephemeron tables and use the underlying Lua's garbage collection for memory management and make the VM use coroutines that yield to ask for more computational units, but that won't work here since 5.1 doesn't have ephemeron tables
2016-06-30T22:20:53Z pierpa: there are several scheme implementation written in a high level language that you could use as a guide
2016-06-30T22:20:58Z pierpa: +s
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2016-06-30T22:22:36Z Hijiri: I'm looking for one that keeps track of memory use and has fine-grained steps for most things (including eval and macro expansion)
2016-06-30T22:22:50Z Hijiri: I guess I can just start looking through some
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2016-06-30T22:55:01Z wasamasa: http://api.call-cc.org/doc/sandbox
2016-06-30T22:55:09Z wasamasa: this one has a fuel concept
2016-06-30T22:55:47Z Hijiri: wasamasa: thanks
2016-06-30T22:56:05Z wasamasa: the implementation is basically a very small scheme inside a more featureful one
2016-06-30T22:56:21Z wasamasa: generally, you might want to look into sandboxing techniques
2016-06-30T22:57:37Z wasamasa: the ones I've seen before did abort potentially infinite loops after a timeout
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