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2016-03-01T13:11:36Z itsmeagain: http://i.piccy.info/i9/be749b1abc04c2eab513597e63fbc9f3/1456052415/110865/1005977/Snymok111.jpg Help me pls)"1H7VjpSMNnR9FLXxCvVKww71fKVCyLGvwT"BitCoinAdress
2016-03-01T13:11:44Z itsmeagain: sorry for a spam
2016-03-01T13:11:45Z itsmeagain: )
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2016-03-01T13:13:37Z jackdaniel: lol?
2016-03-01T13:16:34Z wasamasa: lol
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2016-03-01T13:16:55Z wasamasa: collecting bitcoins to buy a new computer
2016-03-01T13:18:30Z wasamasa: in soviet russia, bitcoins collect you!
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2016-03-03T02:24:49Z 
2016-03-03T02:24:49Z names: ccl-logbot jeaye_ jjjj2_ benaiah` NNaNDude choas_ jrslepak_ zacts_ grublet nowhere_man mario-go` zhcy1 Niac_ jcmdln jmg8766 fiddlerwoaroof Heranort karswell Menche grettke _sjs sondr3 groovy2shoes Khisanth tessier drdo Blkt rockstar__ pierpa Starwats taysar leppie gigglypuff badkins lambda-11235 altphi kraehe mastokley fadein groscoe rx80 ASau sethalves leo_song m1dnight_ kbtr harmchop emmanueloga dxtr asumu LeoNerd drforr1 balkamos Neet jcowan DGASAU
2016-03-03T02:24:49Z names: eska eMBee Kruppe rsully cdidd ArneBab nilg oleo cibs JuanDaugherty turbofail aap s00pcan sz0 zbigniew m0li stamourv clog tm512 mj12` haasn defanor ecraven _0x5eb_ snow_bckspc yosafbridge` greghendershott magically nilg` dmiles tristero ics zeroish XTL ineiros skelternet arbscht quinoa jrdnull pchrist keemyb DerGuteMoritz abbe salv0 aeth zhaoyeming fizzie dualbus SHODAN snits autogen nckx ELLIOTTCABLE chishiki stasku___ shardz stephe chazu Guest33283
2016-03-03T02:24:49Z names: vikraman taij33n sytse neuri8 seg fgudin dsp SirDayBat r0kc4t ggherdov oskarth renopt evhan cjh` John[Lisbeth] hive-mind dTal low-profile mlaine joast twem2 ohama cky eli Riviera dan64 z0d narendraj9 cmatei mikeyhc nitrix CustosL1men wingo petercommand rpcope haroldwu C-Keen gf3 profan klutometis ski foof`` octo chu lloda em finnrobi eagleflo gnomon zwdr dsp- wasamasa {dpk} Tenhi na_th_an stux|work Tenhi_ cross metaf5_ beagles copec ec\ askatasuna
2016-03-03T02:24:49Z names: Saeren micro` amoe mrowe ft jkraemer niklasl dbohdan taylan cantstanya jackdaniel antoszka carc juanfra samw3 samth kwmiebach cojy jyc ozzloy nmeum akkad vifino GGMethos moredhel Kryo
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2016-03-03T02:36:46Z jmg8766: okay so i'm pretty sure that was pseudo code now
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2016-03-03T02:41:31Z iamme: Hi
2016-03-03T02:41:55Z iamme: I am learning Racket/Scheme as part of a course and have several conceptual questions.
2016-03-03T02:42:32Z iamme: I posted sample code on StackOverflow and since it won't format here properly, I will just post the link to the question: http://stackoverflow.com/questions/35762146/why-isnt-a-function-calling-itself-in-its-body-considered-recursive-vs-iterati
2016-03-03T02:43:07Z iamme: Basically, in the specified code, recursion is being used, but the instructor said that it's iterative. I don't get how/why?
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2016-03-03T03:04:46Z jmg8766: how do you return a list of lists in scheme?
2016-03-03T03:05:02Z jmg8766: oh wait i think i know
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2016-03-03T03:05:17Z jmg8766: '( lst1 lst2 lst3 )
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2016-03-03T03:17:15Z jmg8766: why is (equal? (car list) "asdf") returning false when list is (asdf 1) ?
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2016-03-03T03:21:12Z jmg8766: oh because (asdf 1) is actually (a s d f 1) when i wanted ("asdf" 1)
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2016-03-03T03:28:20Z jcowan: iamme: ping
2016-03-03T03:28:30Z iamme: hi
2016-03-03T03:29:10Z jcowan: do you understand now why your function is iterative?
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2016-03-03T03:29:46Z jcowan: or are you still wondering?
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2016-03-03T03:32:35Z iamme: Still slightly confused, but I get the tail recursion part.
2016-03-03T03:32:59Z iamme: So basically, there is no such thing as "iteration" in Scheme. Instead, it uses tail-recursion to imitate looping?
2016-03-03T03:33:31Z jcowan: Yes, and behind the scenes the tail recursion is transformed into a loop
2016-03-03T03:33:42Z jcowan: In most languages, the stack is pushed whenever a procedure is called.
2016-03-03T03:33:58Z jcowan: In Scheme, it's only pushed when a complex argument (other than a variable or constant) is evaluated.
2016-03-03T03:34:11Z jcowan: So a call is just a goto with renaming.
2016-03-03T03:34:53Z jcowan: So for example if you have (define (foo a b) ...)
2016-03-03T03:35:19Z jcowan: and then you call (foo x y), all that happens is that the values named x and y are also now named a and b
2016-03-03T03:35:36Z jcowan: and then we start executing the foo code with a continuation saying "Come back here"
2016-03-03T03:35:53Z jcowan: In tail recursion, however, the continuation says "Go back to where we were called from"
2016-03-03T03:36:21Z jcowan: and since a procedure exits by jumping to its continuation, the right thing always happens
2016-03-03T03:36:28Z jcowan: Does that help, or make it more confusing?
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2016-03-03T03:49:38Z iamme: So if you're trying to design a for loop, would the loop itself just be a new procedure inside the parent function? If so, then would it loop itself (the way a for loop should) by using tail-recursion to call itself and start over?
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2016-03-03T04:01:01Z jcowan: iamme: Exactly
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2016-03-03T04:01:14Z jcowan: In Scheme, it's called "do" and it has the capability of iterating multiple variables in parallel
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2016-03-03T04:01:55Z jcowan: There is also the "named let" where you bind a set of variables to initial values and supply a name for the let statement.
2016-03-03T04:02:19Z jcowan: Then you can invoke that name as a procedure with arguments corresponding to the variables bound by the "let".  This is the most common
2016-03-03T04:02:31Z jcowan: method of looping.  You exit the loop simply by not calling the procedure.
2016-03-03T04:05:17Z iamme: I see. That definitely makes it better. I came in completely confused. Definitely can say that you cleared all of the confusion. Thank you! :)
2016-03-03T04:23:01Z groovy2shoes: jcowan, what's the status of R7RS-large?
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2016-03-03T04:40:10Z jcowan: groovy2shoes: It's complicated
2016-03-03T04:41:16Z jcowan: There will be a series of editions adding new libraries to the R7RS-small core
2016-03-03T04:41:46Z jcowan: You can see the first wodge of libraries at http://trac.sacrideo.us/wg/wiki/RedDocket
2016-03-03T04:42:16Z jcowan: A few of the SRFIs referennced are not quite finished yet, but I hope they will be very soon, and then voting on them can begin to see which are included and which are excluded.
2016-03-03T04:42:44Z groovy2shoes: ah
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2016-03-03T04:44:17Z jcowan: Then a new round of SRFI development will begin, followed by the Orange Edition, then the Yellow, the Blue, and perhaps the Green.
2016-03-03T04:44:28Z jcowan: The final or Ultraviolet Edition is currently not visible.
2016-03-03T04:45:22Z jcowan: swap Green and Blue, of course
2016-03-03T04:46:12Z jcowan: Roughly speaking, Red is data structures, Orange is numerics, Yellow is syntax, Green is I/O, and Blue is anything left
2016-03-03T04:46:20Z jcowan: hopefully Violet will not be needed
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2016-03-03T13:58:32Z jcowan: Question:
2016-03-03T13:59:37Z jcowan: I found a definition of the form (define foo (letrec ((a (lambda (x y) ...)) (b (lambda (x y) ...)) (lambda (bar baz) ...)
2016-03-03T14:00:04Z jcowan: Why would someone use this format instead of the more usual (define (foo bar baz) ... (letrec ...) ...)?
2016-03-03T14:00:18Z jcowan: It is not merely stylistic, because most defines in the code have the latter form.
2016-03-03T14:00:58Z jcowan: afaict, the only difference is that in the first form, bar and baz are not in scope in the bodies of a and b.  But what possible difference could that make if they were in scope but never used?
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2016-03-03T14:05:55Z ggole: Catering to a naive compiler that doesn't hoist the definitions?
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2016-03-03T15:01:34Z jcowan: ggole: I guess so.  Or maybe a system that closes over all outer variables whether it needs their values or not.
2016-03-03T15:06:26Z Riastradh: jcowan: I used that style a long time ago for exactly the reason ggole suggests.
2016-03-03T15:07:13Z Riastradh: If I recall correctly, I measured a significant performance difference in an application on Scheme48 at the time.
2016-03-03T15:07:16Z jcowan: Ah.  It is in fact your code that I'm looking at.
2016-03-03T15:07:25Z Riastradh: Are you looking at SRFI 43 again?
2016-03-03T15:07:48Z jcowan: Not going to re-engineer the sample application for SRFI 133 from scratch, so yes.
2016-03-03T15:08:13Z jcowan: BTW, if you want your name taken off 133 (though it is mostly your prose), let me know.
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2016-03-03T15:09:04Z Riastradh: I'd suggest saying `derived from SRFI 43 by me' rather than putting my name on it as an author.
2016-03-03T15:09:14Z jcowan: Will do.
2016-03-03T15:09:42Z jcowan: s/application/implementation/, of course
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2016-03-03T18:49:45Z groovy2shoes: jcowan, what does Will Clinger mean when he talks about 'mustard'?
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2016-03-03T19:03:40Z jcowan: groovy2shoes: Statements with the word MUST in them.
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2016-03-03T19:09:52Z groovy2shoes: jcowan, ah :)
2016-03-03T19:10:08Z groovy2shoes: jcowan, is there any room left on WG2?  I'd like to help out if I can
2016-03-03T19:10:59Z jcowan: Absolutely.  There is no fixed number of participants
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2016-03-03T19:11:25Z groovy2shoes: is there some process I need to go through?  or should I just jump in on the list?
2016-03-03T19:11:42Z jcowan: We aren't ready to vote, but you should look at http://trac.sacrideo.us/wg/wiki/RedDocket and follow the links to various SRFIs.
2016-03-03T19:11:52Z groovy2shoes: will do
2016-03-03T19:12:15Z jcowan: also join the google group scheme-reports-wg2
2016-03-03T19:13:21Z jcowan: also SRFIs 125 and 130-134 are still open, so if those topics interest you, weigh in
2016-03-03T19:13:34Z jcowan: 129 is in last call, but it's a formality
2016-03-03T19:13:54Z jcowan: sorry, 131 is final too, so 125, 130, 132, 133, 134 and theoretically 129
2016-03-03T19:14:13Z jcowan: I think 122 is going to die, and so I am planning a replacement for it later
2016-03-03T19:14:22Z groovy2shoes: okay :)
2016-03-03T19:14:52Z groovy2shoes: activity on the group seems to be at a slow pace... is there some other place where discussion tends to happen?  or is that just the pace of development?
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2016-03-03T19:16:25Z jcowan: No, it's just that things are happening on the SRFI lists now
2016-03-03T19:16:49Z jcowan: and dying down there, so I just need to wrap them up and then discussion on the Red Docket will (I hope) ramp up
2016-03-03T19:16:58Z groovy2shoes: sounds good
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2016-03-03T19:17:23Z groovy2shoes: I'm assuming that when all the SRFIs are complete, they'll be compiled into an R7RS large document?
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2016-03-03T19:24:54Z jcowan: Probbably, but the first docs will just be cross-references
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2016-03-03T19:30:13Z ecraven: hm.. srfi-4 is missing :-/
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2016-03-03T20:37:14Z ecraven: http://trac.sacrideo.us/wg/wiki/RedDocket
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2016-03-03T23:24:41Z qwertyuiop924: Is is possible to serialize a function, and restore it at a later date?
2016-03-03T23:25:19Z qwertyuiop924: I'm mostly a chicken or chibi user, but general info about various implementations would be good
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2016-03-04T01:25:29Z mikeyhc: I dont know if it can be done for a function which has already been evaluated, but if it hasn't you could quote it and serialize that, later you could could read and eval it
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2016-03-04T02:54:35Z turtleman: im rewriting a library of mine in wisp and prometheus to see how it looks
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2016-03-04T14:51:01Z ecraven: jcowan: was inclusion of srfi-4 in r7rs large ever discussed ?
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2016-03-04T15:20:28Z jcowan: ecraven: Not yet, but it definitely will be discussed in the next rounnd when we do numerics
2016-03-04T15:20:57Z jcowan: NumericVectorsCowan subsumes it, so we might end up with something a bit larger
2016-03-04T15:22:53Z jcowan: It can't be implemented both well and portably (that is, the portable fallback is a {vector, type} record) without great pain of bit-twiddling
2016-03-04T15:23:01Z jcowan: especially the floats
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2016-03-04T15:53:37Z ecraven: great :)
2016-03-04T15:53:47Z ecraven: well, they should be implemented natively anyway :)
2016-03-04T15:55:19Z jcowan: Agreed
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2016-03-04T21:12:19Z stis_: foof``: I someone on the guile irc found a bug in match-let for named match-let
2016-03-04T21:12:22Z stis_: foof``:
2016-03-04T21:12:50Z stis_: foof``:  in the piping to the named let macro there is a missing parenthesis
2016-03-04T21:13:14Z stis_: (define-syntax match-let
2016-03-04T21:13:16Z stis_:   (syntax-rules ()
2016-03-04T21:13:17Z stis_:     ((_ ((var value) ...) . body)
2016-03-04T21:13:19Z stis_:      (match-let/helper let () () ((var value) ...) . body))
2016-03-04T21:13:20Z stis_:     ((_ loop ((var init) ...) . body)
2016-03-04T21:13:22Z stis_:      (match-named-let loop ((var init) ...) . body))))
2016-03-04T21:13:32Z stis_: it should be (match-named-let loop () ((var init) ...) . body)))) me thinks
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2016-03-04T21:17:44Z wingo: stis_: you sure you're working with the latest match impl?
2016-03-04T21:18:04Z wingo: like, is there an updated match that we should just import
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2016-03-04T21:18:19Z stis_: no that's true, I'll check.
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2016-03-04T21:26:32Z stis_: wingo: I went to synthcode and the current source still has this bug.
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2016-03-04T21:27:10Z wingo: cool :)
2016-03-04T21:27:43Z wingo: dunno why i felt the urge to swoop in and play patch-dad, sorry about that :)
2016-03-04T21:29:06Z stis_: n.p.
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2016-03-05T03:55:08Z zm: can i go through sicp with racket? will the code in the book work fine in racket?
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2016-03-05T07:37:07Z ecraven: zm: if you choose the right language in racket, things are supposed to work well
2016-03-05T07:40:24Z zm: ecraven: im actually thinking about reading htdp instead of sicp
2016-03-05T07:40:39Z zm: once im done with my current book anyway
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2016-03-05T11:54:52Z francogrex: Hi is there an r7rs compliance test suite?
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2016-03-05T12:04:46Z aeth: francogrex: The best I could find is https://github.com/ashinn/chibi-scheme/blob/master/tests/r7rs-tests.scm
2016-03-05T12:06:19Z aeth: Other r7rs implementations might have different r7rs tests
2016-03-05T12:08:37Z francogrex: aeth: ok thanks. It's good I think but not portable...
2016-03-05T12:12:37Z aeth: You would have to port their test library. This? https://github.com/ashinn/chibi-scheme/blob/master/lib/chibi/test.scm
2016-03-05T12:14:38Z francogrex: ok yes this would be feasible. thanks
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2016-03-05T14:44:46Z stis_: foof``: did you get my message about a bug in match?
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2016-03-05T20:49:33Z aerialB: are functions in Scheme/Lisp curried? As in (foo bar baz) is a function which takes bar and produces another function which takes baz? Or is that just the syntax?
2016-03-05T20:49:52Z wasamasa: that's just syntax
2016-03-05T20:50:07Z aerialB: ah ok
2016-03-05T20:50:09Z aerialB: thanks
2016-03-05T20:50:42Z wasamasa: now, there might be lisp implementations that happen to implement this by currying :P
2016-03-05T20:51:58Z aerialB: cool :)
2016-03-05T20:53:50Z wasamasa: the evaluator typically encounters atoms and lists
2016-03-05T20:54:17Z wasamasa: an atom either evaluates to itself (like, any literal) or can be an identifier that resolves to a variable/function/...
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2016-03-05T20:54:38Z wasamasa: a list is interpreted as a function call with the first element as function and the rest as arguments which in turn are evaluated
2016-03-05T20:55:34Z wasamasa: unless there happen to be special rules, such as with define or set! or if or such
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2016-03-05T20:56:51Z wasamasa: the neatest example of this is probably the original lisp paper (which happens to use m-expressions, but other than that)
2016-03-05T20:58:37Z aerialB: Ah yes, it's coming back to me from SICP a little (still only on the second chapter or something heh).
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2016-03-06T05:22:16Z mastokley: does racket have a flatmap function, like scala and clojure?
2016-03-06T05:22:22Z mastokley: sorry, scheme
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2016-03-06T08:10:41Z wasamasa: there's one in srfi-1
2016-03-06T08:10:59Z wasamasa: append-map
2016-03-06T08:11:34Z wasamasa: which is equivalent to (apply append (map fn ...))
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2016-03-06T08:29:28Z IstiCusi_: Dear all, can somebody help me out: I am looking for a table that lists the computational complexity for primitive operations in scheme - especially those for multiplication would be great, thx for help!
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2016-03-06T08:40:00Z wasamasa: good that computational complexity is only half the truth :P
2016-03-06T08:44:10Z IstiCusi_: wasamasa: yep
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2016-03-06T10:22:27Z wasamasa: aside from that, isn't that strictly implementation-specific?
2016-03-06T10:23:17Z ecraven: is this about the complexity of bignum multiplications? I'd imagine fixnum and flonum only depend on the actual processor
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2016-03-06T11:44:14Z IstiCusi_: wasamasa: yes, it is ... the question is, how e.g. big numbers are implemented ...
2016-03-06T11:44:47Z wasamasa: most of the time with gmp
2016-03-06T11:44:58Z wasamasa: there's of course exceptions, like gambit and CHICKEN
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2016-03-06T13:45:13Z cmatei_: ce
2016-03-06T13:55:47Z foof``: stis_: you've got to stick around if you want an answer :)
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2016-03-06T14:44:32Z ecraven: IstiCusi: look at the source
2016-03-06T14:44:47Z ecraven: MIT/GNU Scheme does not use GMP, some others don't either
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2016-03-07T14:29:50Z byronkatz: Good morning
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2016-03-07T22:04:22Z gigglypuff: Call me crazy, but shouldn't the exponent 'b' actually be 'n' in the first case test in the following .gif image? (from the HTML version of SICP)
2016-03-07T22:04:29Z gigglypuff: https://mitpress.mit.edu/sicp/full-text/book/ch1-Z-G-23.gif
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2016-03-08T16:07:36Z civodul: uh, https://schemers.org/ points to the Pyret web site
2016-03-08T16:08:39Z jackdaniel: weird indeed
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2016-03-08T16:12:14Z jackdaniel: civodul: it's "only" https version
2016-03-08T16:14:06Z civodul: yeah
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2016-03-09T02:54:05Z aries_liuxueyang: Hello?
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2016-03-09T02:55:28Z aries_liuxueyang: I want to install geiser plugin in emacs on Mac
2016-03-09T02:56:19Z aries_liuxueyang: However, It works on on terminal version of emacs. But it does not work on GUI Emacs.
2016-03-09T02:57:55Z aries_liuxueyang: In GUI Emacs: when I run M-x run-geiser and select guile as scheme implementation. Then it shows that: `Geiser requires guile version 2.0 but detected zsh:1: command not found: guile`
2016-03-09T02:58:24Z aries_liuxueyang: But it works fun on terminal version of emacs. Anyone else knows why?
2016-03-09T02:58:48Z aries_liuxueyang: I google it but did not find the reason.
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2016-03-09T06:30:13Z ecraven: aries_liuxueyang: it seems your zsh doesn't find guile
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2016-03-09T08:19:12Z wasamasa: aries_liuxueyang: sounds like you didn't set up PATH correctly
2016-03-09T08:19:26Z wasamasa: aries_liuxueyang: hence why it works in terminal emacs
2016-03-09T08:19:39Z wasamasa: aries_liuxueyang: you set up PATH in your shell's config
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2016-03-09T21:45:51Z jcowan: hey ho
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2016-03-10T04:34:34Z 
2016-03-10T04:34:34Z names: ccl-logbot nanoz] rx80 rjnw ArneBab_ bjz z0d aap_ davexunit clog micmus pierpa grublet adu Niac _sjs igajsin cross jrd0 yosafbridge kbtr balkamos _z karswell sondr3 profess aries_liuxueyang Razz pjb` Rptx na_th_an badkins lambda-11235 lritter askatasuna mokuso Guest55029 keemyb dmiles davidh jcowan ics X-Scale groovy2shoes ASau leppie oleo_ LeoNerd Shadox Kruppe sz0 drdo jyc drforr1 fiddlerwoaroof arbscht CustosL1men emlow kephra DGASAU eMBee neuri8
2016-03-10T04:34:34Z names: akkad sethalves turbofail r0kc4t hive-mind m1dnight_ haasn cmatei_ tessier BossKonaSegwaY juanfra m0li zbigniew profan rpcope _0x5eb_ octo_ salv0 githogori jeaye tokik undoall nowhere_man fadein asumu zacts jkraemer cdidd_ niklasl GGMethos fgudin NaNDude leo_song tm512 stamourv aleogen joast carc C-Keen klutometis snits Tenhi_ aeth Khisanth finnrobi amoe_ cky em Blkt_ Saeren_ lloda` gabot benaiah choas_ jrslepak mario-goulart harmchop emmanueloga dxtr
2016-03-10T04:34:34Z names: Neet eska rsully cibs mj12` defanor ecraven snow_bckspc greghendershott magically tristero XTL ineiros pchrist DerGuteMoritz abbe fizzie dualbus SHODAN nckx|offline ELLIOTTCABLE chishiki stasku___ shardz stephe chazu Guest33283 vikraman taij33n sytse seg dsp SirDayBat ggherdov oskarth renopt evhan cjh` dTal low-profile mlaine twem2 ohama eli Riviera dan64 narendraj9 mikeyhc nitrix wingo petercommand haroldwu gf3 ski foof`` chu eagleflo gnomon zwdr
2016-03-10T04:34:34Z names: dsp- wasamasa {dpk} stux|work Tenhi metaf5_ beagles copec ec\ micro` mrowe ft dbohdan cantstanya jackdaniel antoszka samw3 samth kwmiebach ozzloy nmeum vifino moredhel Kryo
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2016-03-10T16:20:03Z X-Scale: Is there a compreensive test suite for R5RS implementations as there is test262 for ECMAscript ?
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2016-03-10T16:24:09Z mario-goulart: X-Scale: some implementations provide some tests for r5rs stuff.  Examples: code.call-cc.org/cgi-bin/gitweb.cgi?p=chicken-core.git;a=blob;f=tests/r5rs_pitfalls.scm and https://github.com/ashinn/chibi-scheme/blob/master/tests/r5rs-tests.scm
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2016-03-10T16:39:42Z X-Scale: mario-goulart: thank you.
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2016-03-10T22:33:47Z aeth: Is there a priority list of SRFIs? The closest I can find is this, which doesn't have all SRFIs. https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1XbPdPxvHjbtsM-bnSJO2mhK2uIf-ufst67H3TRrpKhA/pub?output=html
2016-03-10T22:34:03Z wasamasa: a what?
2016-03-10T22:34:15Z aeth: not all SRFIs are created equal
2016-03-10T22:34:30Z wasamasa: who is to judge that?
2016-03-10T22:35:14Z aeth: One way to judge that is the spreadsheet I gave. More implementations using a SRFI means more semi-portable code is probably going to be using it.
2016-03-10T22:36:21Z aeth: But it's not quite that simple because some SRFIs might have made their way into r7rs-small or r7rs-large
2016-03-10T22:36:29Z wasamasa: I asked who, not how
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2016-03-10T22:38:47Z aeth: Well, clearly they vary in their utility, e.g. SRFI 49 (the indentation syntax) is useless to try implementing. Probably no editor supports it, probably no one reads it, it's on the list as 0 implementations implementing it, and it's more of a library than an actual core feature.
2016-03-10T22:39:08Z aeth: But not everything can be a library because Scheme is too small of a language. Some SRFIs require other SRFIs.
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2016-03-10T22:39:36Z wasamasa still has no idea what a priority list would be
2016-03-10T22:40:00Z aeth: wasamasa: If you are going to sort SRFIs by order of implementation rather than order of their number.
2016-03-10T22:40:32Z wasamasa: what does that have to do with priorities?
2016-03-10T22:41:22Z wasamasa: regarding srfi-49, I've encountered the author of srfi-119 on #chicken seeking active dialogue with others not enamored by its syntax to spot deficiencies
2016-03-10T22:42:05Z aeth: oh god
2016-03-10T22:42:14Z wasamasa: I know, shocking
2016-03-10T22:42:17Z aeth: SRFI-49, SRFI-110, SRFI-119.
2016-03-10T22:42:20Z aeth: There's more than one
2016-03-10T22:42:29Z wasamasa: your opinion is not the only valid one :P
2016-03-10T22:42:31Z aeth: wasamasa: see, by priority list, I mean thse would be on the very bottom
2016-03-10T22:42:39Z aeth: :P
2016-03-10T22:42:57Z wasamasa still has no idea what that got to do with priorities
2016-03-10T22:43:22Z wasamasa: if everyone and their cat got their own lisp implementation, is implementing your own lisp high-priority?
2016-03-10T22:43:34Z aeth: Implementation priorities. Mostly popularity, but also including things like dependencies.
2016-03-10T22:44:14Z aeth: wasamasa: Yes, my Scheme is actually quite necessary. Most Scheme interpreters that are designed for scripting are designed for scripting with C applications. I am designing one that's designed for scripting with CL applications.
2016-03-10T22:44:23Z wasamasa: lol
2016-03-10T22:45:16Z aeth: I have essentially the same use case as Lua in C, i.e. a small scripting language I can embed within a sandbox within my applications. Lua, however, is designed for C and there's basically no point to use Lua within CL unless you want to run existing .lua applications or attract Lua programmers.
2016-03-10T22:45:18Z wasamasa: must be useful, considering how outnumbered the CL applications are
2016-03-10T22:45:50Z aeth: It doesn't have to be as useful because it's easier to implement (at least as an interpreter) in CL than it is in C.
2016-03-10T22:46:05Z aeth: Less utility, but less work as well.
2016-03-10T22:46:40Z wasamasa: as for that list, I'm shocked how low srfi-4 is there
2016-03-10T22:47:05Z aeth: Also it's quite important. I can't have random scripts calling (delete-file) or a CL library equivalent.
2016-03-10T22:47:47Z aeth: wasamasa: That list isn't a good one, though, because it includes a lot of Schemes that probably no one writes for directly.
2016-03-10T22:48:23Z aeth: SRFI-4 seems to be unpopular in the middle ranges.
2016-03-10T22:49:20Z aeth: If Guile, Racket, Chicken, etc., have it (it looks like they do), that is something that would probably be useful for portability.
2016-03-10T22:50:12Z ecraven: srfi-4 (or something like it) would be great to have on all systems
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2016-03-10T22:53:22Z aeth: Actually, what is probably more useful than SRFI popularity by implementation is SRFI popularity by presence in libraries. Since the point is make it possible to port useful code to a new Scheme, not to write new libraries that run on literally every Scheme.
2016-03-10T22:53:28Z aeth: At least, the point of the sort of list I'd want.
2016-03-10T22:55:53Z aeth: Maybe tons of libraries are written in SRFI-49
2016-03-10T22:58:25Z aeth: Another, separately useful list would be a list of SRFIs not implementable without other SRFIs.
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2016-03-10T22:58:55Z sindriava: Hello! Is there a way to execute stuff in a clean environment?
2016-03-10T22:59:17Z sindriava: e.g. a kind of let binding, that unbinds everything else.
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2016-03-10T23:04:52Z wasamasa: eval takes an environment traditionally
2016-03-10T23:06:47Z wasamasa: it's also known to not work well with let :P
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2016-03-10T23:15:22Z jcowan: aeth: sounds like you'd be a great contributor to the R7RS-large effort
2016-03-10T23:15:50Z wasamasa: jcowan: don't forget approaching taylan as well
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2016-03-10T23:24:15Z aeth: jcowan: Was there some delay in r7rs-large? r7rs-small was a while ago
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2016-03-10T23:25:35Z jcowan: aeth: Yes, the delay is that I'm a busy person and I haven't had much help. Also, it's LARGE.
2016-03-10T23:25:42Z aeth: ah
2016-03-10T23:26:08Z jcowan: However, we are soon going to vote on the Red Docket, which will be the first or Red Edition of the large language
2016-03-10T23:26:23Z jcowan: it provides data structures, so we'll see what is voted up and down
2016-03-10T23:26:40Z jcowan: then will come numerics, syntax, I/O, and possibly other stuff.
2016-03-10T23:26:55Z jcowan: trac.sacrideo.us/wg/wiki/RedDocket
2016-03-10T23:27:23Z jcowan: sindriava: The result of (null-environment) is a fairly empty environment with just some syntax bindings
2016-03-10T23:27:29Z jcowan: you can pass that to evel
2016-03-10T23:28:13Z jcowan: aeth: It's not so much "not implementable without other SRFIs", it's having interfaces that depend on other SRFIs.  And there are few of those.
2016-03-10T23:30:58Z aeth: Currently, all I have is a very tiny reader that can read everything except for "..." and "#\xfoo", or at least not error on anything except for those two in the r7rs-small tests. Once I get those to work (and make sure the rest are read properly), I will be working on the eval and print (display?) parts of the read eval print loop, which will take much longer.
2016-03-10T23:31:31Z aeth: I will also have to write something so that the repl, once existing, can interact with geiser (the Scheme equivalent to SLIME in emacs) so it can be actually useful.
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2016-03-10T23:31:55Z jcowan: Indeed.  I assume you will leverage the standard CL library heavily (pairs are conses, vectors are simple vectors, strings are strings)?
2016-03-10T23:32:37Z aeth: Yes. Most things where possible will be implemented in standard CL, but I may have to use portability libraries (my first choice) or sbcl-specific things (if necessary) for some features that aren't in the HyperSpec but are in r7rs-small.
2016-03-10T23:34:17Z aeth: Unlike the prior similar attempt (Pseudoscheme) my focus is on correct r7rs-small behavior and sandboxing. Afaik, Pseudoscheme was afaik what is called today a "transpiler" so it never had full tail recursion or call/cc.
2016-03-10T23:37:53Z aeth: My main goal (and this is one reason why r7rs is my target) is to let the host CL application disable certain Scheme libraries if sandboxing is desired, so e.g. (scheme file) would not be available if the host CL application doesn't want the Scheme to access (delete-file)
2016-03-10T23:38:22Z aeth: (And by disable, I mean it would be not included on a whitelist, rather than being blacklisted.)
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2016-03-10T23:43:43Z aeth: The only unique library I intend on including at the moment is CL <---> Scheme interactivity, which could be useful if I can find a way to generally deal with the nil vs. '() and #f issue among several others.
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2016-03-11T00:15:04Z aeth: I am actually making a lot of progress on (scheme-read) and I might finish it sooner than I thought. Apparently, implementing a lisp in a lisp is easy, especially since CL has such a powerful reader. (scheme-read) will appear as (read) from within the Scheme interpreter.
2016-03-11T00:22:04Z aeth: I think that I will have an r7rs minus the difficult parts (tail recursion, hygienic macros, call/cc) *very* quickly.
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2016-03-11T00:37:17Z jcowan: That's traditionally called an NQS (Not Quite Scheme)
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2016-03-11T00:38:54Z jcowan: I recommend that you use Guile's approach to () vs. nil
2016-03-11T00:39:34Z jcowan: https://www.gnu.org/software/guile/manual/html_node/Nil.html#Nil
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2016-03-11T00:49:20Z aeth: Ah, Guile elisp. I didn't even think of that.
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2016-03-11T01:11:13Z aeth: Also, the aim is to start with not-Scheme and eventually get Scheme, so I guess "quite" is a good intermediate step as long as it is not the stopping point.
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2016-03-11T01:18:23Z jcowan: You will have to completely replace the evaluator, though
2016-03-11T01:18:41Z jcowan: You might want to start by translating the MacLisp Scheme evaluator into CL instead
2016-03-11T01:18:46Z aeth: Yes. The reader is just a pile of hacks, the printer will hopefully just be a pile of hacks, but the eval is literally the interpreter.
2016-03-11T01:19:33Z jcowan: and bypass the NQS stage
2016-03-11T01:20:25Z aeth: jcowan: Isn't (eval) just like described here except with presumably more special cases and all the procedures filled in? https://mitpress.mit.edu/sicp/full-text/book/book-Z-H-26.html#%_sec_4.1
2016-03-11T01:21:30Z jcowan: Well, not usefully so: it implements tail recursion by assuming the host language already has tail recursion, etc.
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2016-03-11T01:23:13Z jcowan: Look at the literate Maclisp source for the original Scheme interpreter starting on p. 29 of http://repository.readscheme.org/ftp/papers/ai-lab-pubs/AIM-349.pdf
2016-03-11T01:24:28Z jcowan: aeth: ^^
2016-03-11T01:24:28Z aeth: Good point. I was probably going to non-portably write eval in a tail recursive way that (hopefully) works under SBCL.
2016-03-11T01:24:35Z jcowan nods
2016-03-11T01:24:42Z jcowan: But that will not give you continuations etc.
2016-03-11T01:25:54Z aeth: This probably won't run on every CL. It will probably need threads to be useful.
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2016-03-11T01:27:39Z jcowan: http://c2.com/cgi/wiki?CallWithCurrentContinuation is also worth readiung
2016-03-11T01:27:43Z jcowan: or reading, even
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2016-03-11T03:12:17Z X-Scale: The aknowledgements section is particularly enlightening: "Note well that we did *not* bring forth a clean implementation in one brilliant flash of understanding; we used an experimental and highly empirical approach to bootstrap our knowledge."
2016-03-11T03:12:51Z X-Scale: *acknowledgements
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2016-03-11T19:19:12Z aeth: Has anyone made a Scheme implementation called Ponzi Scheme yet?
2016-03-11T19:19:25Z oleo: lol
2016-03-11T19:22:14Z leppie: all of them ;p
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2016-03-11T21:05:23Z heedful: Can someone help me with exercise 1.19 in SICP? I am seriously about to quit reading this book, because my mathematical rigor is extremely lacking and it has so far done nothing more than make me want to off myself for being so retarded.
2016-03-11T21:05:36Z heedful: An informal take on the exercise would be nice.
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2016-03-11T21:17:01Z jrajav: You shouldn't be too disheartened heedful, that exercise is definitely getting farther removed from Scheme itself and well into advanced algebra and linear transformations
2016-03-11T21:17:18Z jrajav: heedful: Perhaps this wiki entry is more digestible for you than the book solution http://community.schemewiki.org/?sicp-ex-1.19
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2016-03-12T08:54:52Z jim: I'm trying to help someone get registered, I'm having trouble. is there a staff person around?
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2016-03-12T08:55:29Z jim: oops wrong channel :) happy scheming
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2016-03-12T13:09:11Z turtleman: someone asked me this question https://quitter.se/notice/4979114
2016-03-12T13:09:17Z turtleman: does anyone know why this is so?
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2016-03-12T13:50:29Z pjb: turtleman: it is because there are several ways to classify things.
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2016-03-12T13:52:18Z pjb: turtleman: basically, it's the same reason why you can see four different fundamental forces, when we know that at the origin, there was only a single one (and already, we are able to merge electricity and magnetism into a single electromagnetic framework).
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2016-03-12T14:21:51Z turtleman: pjb, im a little confused
2016-03-12T14:22:03Z turtleman: what this person is saying is that when passing a non-commutative operation
2016-03-12T14:22:12Z turtleman: fold and stream-fold behave differently
2016-03-12T14:22:29Z turtleman: how does this have to do with fundamental forces?
2016-03-12T14:22:30Z pjb: Yes.
2016-03-12T14:22:43Z turtleman: what are the different ways to classify
2016-03-12T14:23:18Z pjb: fold comes from a series of functions, and stream-fold comes from another series of functions. In each case, the order of parameters made intrinsic sense.
2016-03-12T14:25:22Z pjb: scheme also distinguishes left fold and right fold (foldl and foldr).  (in CL, we have reduce :from-end nil and reduce :from-end t).  which one fold is, is rather inconsequent.
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2016-03-12T14:26:26Z pjb: Meaning, if you need to distinguish between your operator is not associative, then you will use foldl or foldr, not fold.
2016-03-12T14:27:59Z pjb: (f a (f b c)) = (f (f a b) c) for all a b c <=> f is associative.
2016-03-12T14:28:31Z rszeno: i'm just curios how can fold works with streams?
2016-03-12T14:28:33Z pjb: (f a (f b c)) = (foldr f (list a b c))  (f (f a b) c) = (foldl f (list a b c))
2016-03-12T14:28:45Z turtleman: im not seeing foldr and foldl in my scheme
2016-03-12T14:28:49Z pjb: Well obviously on a stream you would use only foldl.
2016-03-12T14:29:08Z turtleman: i only see fold and fold-right
2016-03-12T14:29:10Z pjb: turtleman: it's scheme, so of course they are not in (r5rs) scheme. You have to get some library, some SRFi.
2016-03-12T14:29:13Z rszeno: ah, ok, :)
2016-03-12T14:29:21Z turtleman: srfi 1 has fold an fold-right
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2016-03-12T14:31:07Z turtleman: why doesnt it have a fold left
2016-03-12T14:31:15Z turtleman: maybe because it is too easy with tail recursion?
2016-03-12T14:31:52Z pjb: turtleman: the fold left is the obvious fold, since it processes the first elements of the list (or of the stream) first.
2016-03-12T14:32:06Z turtleman: no i just tested it
2016-03-12T14:32:08Z turtleman: fold == fold-right
2016-03-12T14:32:38Z pjb: strange.
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2016-03-12T14:33:12Z rszeno: turtleman, what scheme do you use?
2016-03-12T14:33:35Z turtleman: i tested with guile, chibi, gauche
2016-03-12T14:38:56Z rszeno: in guile fold work from left to right, start to end, and fold-right from right to left, end/start
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2016-03-12T14:49:49Z turtleman: hmmm weird
2016-03-12T14:50:12Z turtleman: scheme@(guile-user)> (fold - 0 '(1 2 3 4 5))
2016-03-12T14:50:12Z turtleman: $1 = 3
2016-03-12T14:50:12Z turtleman: scheme@(guile-user)> (fold-right - 0 '(1 2 3 4 5))
2016-03-12T14:50:12Z turtleman: $2 = 3
2016-03-12T14:51:00Z turtleman: scheme@(guile-user)> (stream-fold - 0 (list->stream '(1 2 3 4 5)))
2016-03-12T14:51:00Z turtleman: $3 = -15
2016-03-12T14:51:21Z turtleman: :S
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2016-03-12T15:18:34Z turtleman: is fold fold-left?
2016-03-12T15:18:39Z turtleman: im very confused
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2016-03-12T15:19:22Z turtleman: help in understanding is appreciated
2016-03-12T15:21:48Z turtleman: :(
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2016-03-12T15:25:31Z mejja: turtleman: try this : http://paste.lisp.org/display/309780
2016-03-12T15:26:29Z ggole: turtleman: use something that doesn't hide as much structure as -
2016-03-12T15:26:55Z turtleman: ok
2016-03-12T15:27:01Z ggole: cons, for example
2016-03-12T15:28:21Z turtleman: ugh weird
2016-03-12T15:28:24Z turtleman: they all
2016-03-12T15:28:26Z turtleman: give different results
2016-03-12T15:28:28Z turtleman: ;___;
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2016-03-12T15:29:18Z turtleman: ok no more srfis
2016-03-12T15:29:20Z turtleman: to be consistent
2016-03-12T15:29:25Z mejja: turtleman: fsorry for the typo .. http://paste.lisp.org/display/309780#1
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2016-03-12T15:29:26Z turtleman: im going to use stuff from this page
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2016-03-12T15:30:35Z turtleman: yep
2016-03-12T15:30:39Z turtleman: (srfi 1) fold
2016-03-12T15:30:42Z turtleman: is fold-right
2016-03-12T15:30:45Z turtleman: :|
2016-03-12T15:31:04Z turtleman: or wait
2016-03-12T15:31:05Z turtleman: i dont even know
2016-03-12T15:31:06Z turtleman: this is
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2016-03-12T15:31:08Z turtleman: really confusing
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2016-03-12T15:31:58Z turtleman: > (fold     sub 0 '(1 2 3 4 5))
2016-03-12T15:31:58Z turtleman: (- 1 0)(- 2 1)(- 3 1)(- 4 2)(- 5 2)3
2016-03-12T15:31:58Z turtleman: > (fold-left sub 0 '(1 2 3 4 5))
2016-03-12T15:31:58Z turtleman: (- 0 1)(- -1 2)(- -3 3)(- -6 4)(- -10 5)-15
2016-03-12T15:31:58Z turtleman: > (fold-right sub 0 '(1 2 3 4 5))
2016-03-12T15:31:59Z turtleman: (- 5 0)(- 4 5)(- 3 -1)(- 2 4)(- 1 -2)3
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2016-03-12T15:32:12Z turtleman: what does this even mean
2016-03-12T15:33:49Z ggole: First, that fold and fold-left take arguments in a different order
2016-03-12T15:34:18Z ggole: And second, that the evaluation order between fold and fold-right is different
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2016-03-12T15:34:41Z ggole: The evaluation order and the meaning of the result are *not* the same thing.
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2016-03-12T15:40:32Z mejja: turtleman:  http://srfi.schemers.org/srfi-1/mail-archive/msg00021.html
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2016-03-12T15:42:43Z turtleman: ok so what you are saying is that
2016-03-12T15:42:58Z turtleman: ok
2016-03-12T15:43:00Z turtleman: thats what i thought
2016-03-12T15:43:02Z turtleman: what pjb said confused me
2016-03-12T15:43:41Z turtleman: so then WHY
2016-03-12T15:43:46Z turtleman: is fold and stream-fold different
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2016-03-12T15:47:06Z turtleman: :S
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2016-03-12T16:00:59Z turtleman: huh?
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2016-03-12T22:37:17Z aeth: What's the difference between chapters 4 and 6 in r7rs?
2016-03-12T22:39:53Z aeth: Is the difference that every expression in 4 is not a procedure and 6 are procedures?
2016-03-12T22:46:36Z aeth: 4-5 = syntax, 6 = procedures?
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2016-03-13T16:47:53Z X-Scale: Sigh...MIT/Scheme info reader is giving me problems. It will go into "Internal error: Unable to find Info menu in buffer" after some browsing keystrokes and gets stuck there.
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2016-03-13T16:55:08Z X-Scale: If I restart MIT/Scheme or if I wait a few minutes I'm able to have info reader working again normally.
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2016-03-13T17:07:05Z ecraven: I've never used the info reader :-/
2016-03-13T17:30:36Z X-Scale: I put all the info files from mit-scheme-9.2-doc-info.tar.gz into edwin/info and when I hit C-h i it goes to the root node and I can do some browsing. But after a while it always ends up in that internal error.
2016-03-13T17:30:59Z X-Scale: I'm looking at mit-scheme-9.2.tar.gz/mit-scheme-9.2/src/edwin/info source to see if I can spot something.
2016-03-13T17:31:10Z Riastradh: Feex eet!
2016-03-13T17:31:25Z X-Scale: I'll try, Riastradh :)
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2016-03-13T21:20:17Z n_blownapart: basic math question. Is there an identity for cube roots similar to sqrt(x) = x/sqrt(x)  operating in this sicp example? thanks - https://www.refheap.com/115914
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2016-03-13T21:43:40Z lambda-11235: n_blownapart: cbrt(x) = x/(cbrt(x) * cbrt(x))
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2016-03-13T21:52:40Z lambda-11235: Although in that example Newton's Method is being used.
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2016-03-13T21:55:27Z lambda-11235: Where f(x) = x^3 - 3, and x_(n + 1) = (2x_n + y/x_n^2)/3, where x_n is the nth guess.
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2016-03-15T18:11:44Z magically: Hey everyone this code seems to be telling me I'm using "specifiers" before it's defined... can you help me out? https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/gJetuS9g/
2016-03-15T18:14:03Z vanila: I would recommend using LET*
2016-03-15T18:14:07Z vanila: instead of the defines
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2016-03-15T18:15:13Z magically: vanila: It's part of  a metacircular interpreter and my language doesn't do let* so I want it to be able to interpret it :)
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2016-03-15T18:18:40Z ggole: sequential defines are defined in terms of let rec and as such don't have an order of evaluation iirc
2016-03-15T18:19:26Z magically: ggole: Ooh thank you!!
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2016-03-15T18:20:05Z ggole: Also, why (lambda (lst) (car lst))? Why not car?
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2016-03-15T18:49:28Z magically: Thanks ggole :D
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2016-03-16T07:01:43Z YumYumYum: Hi guys! I have smashed my head against the r6rs module system for a long time, and I can't get it to work. I have two files in the same directory, main.scm and lib.sls. I want to import lib.sls, but the only scheme that lets me do that without modifying the library path is ikarus. Is there any canonical way to do that? I am new to scheme and not even getting this to work just makes me feel stupid.
2016-03-16T07:02:41Z YumYumYum: Guile wont even acknowledge that lib.sls exists, regarless of modifying %load-path or not
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2016-03-16T08:21:42Z taylan: YumYumYum: there is no standard or de-facto way to do that, I'm afraid.  Guile only looks for .scm I believe, so 'ln -s lib.sls lib.scm' will do if you also pass '-L .' to guile, or add $PWD to the load path some other way
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2016-03-16T08:23:42Z taylan: YumYumYum: in some implementations you might have luck with (load "lib.sls") (import (the lib))
2016-03-16T08:24:13Z taylan: the 'load' will evaluate the library declaration, making the library available in the runtime, so then it can be imported without searching for it in the load path.
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2016-03-16T08:25:04Z taylan: this should work in Guile I think, also without having to create the .scm symlink
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2016-03-16T14:52:07Z YumYumYum: taylan: thanks. (sorry, went to sleep and came back from work now). The load thingie works. Why have so many scheme implementations chosen to do things that way? It seems like such a pain in the ass to have to do things "manually" every time
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2016-03-16T14:56:58Z davexunit: YumYumYum: every Scheme implementation I know of has a module system available
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2016-03-16T14:57:40Z vanila: and they are all different :)))
2016-03-16T14:57:40Z taylan: davexunit: I presume the question would be why the directory of the file being compiled/interpreted isn't implicitly appended to the load path.
2016-03-16T14:58:24Z davexunit: vanila: so?  they are all different languages.
2016-03-16T14:59:03Z vanila: alright..
2016-03-16T14:59:49Z davexunit: portable scheme is a fool's errand.
2016-03-16T15:00:14Z vanila: what do you even mean by that
2016-03-16T15:00:45Z davexunit: it's best to think of Scheme as a family of related, but *distinct* and different, languages.
2016-03-16T15:01:03Z davexunit: rather than expecting that what you write for Chicken should work on Guile
2016-03-16T15:01:05Z davexunit: etc.
2016-03-16T15:02:25Z vanila: it'd be better if it wasn't like that, it only fell apart because the specs didn't include module system and everyone was left to invent their own incompatable ones
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2016-03-16T15:04:00Z davexunit: meh.  doesn't bother me.  standard Scheme has always been pretty useless.
2016-03-16T15:04:03Z taylan: actually I think R6RS and R7RS come pretty close to sanity.  in particular R7RS makes it easy to separate the library boilerplate from the main body of code so you can write module boilerplate for different standards/implementations too.  what's missing are well-accepted SRFIs for networking, filesystem, etc.
2016-03-16T15:04:25Z davexunit: I just don't think it's necessary.
2016-03-16T15:04:37Z vanila: taylan, yeah we needed R7RS about 2 decades earlier
2016-03-16T15:04:40Z davexunit: I write Guile, not Racket, not Chicken, not Chibi, not whatever.
2016-03-16T15:05:00Z davexunit: I want Guile to have all the useful Guile-specific features it can possibly have.
2016-03-16T15:05:10Z vanila: it still lacks functors though, which are essential for proper modular programming
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2016-03-16T15:05:33Z davexunit: R6RS and R7RS are from what I've seen, a complete mess.
2016-03-16T15:05:51Z taylan: vanila: can you explain functors in simple terms?  (I'm too lazy to look into it :P)
2016-03-16T15:05:58Z vanila: davexunit, nobody wins from the fact it's extremely hard to move a library from one compiler over to another
2016-03-16T15:06:16Z davexunit: because they are *different languages*
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2016-03-16T15:06:34Z davexunit: it's like expecting emacs lisp code to work in a common lisp compiler.
2016-03-16T15:06:37Z vanila: taylan, like defining a module in terms of a signature (e.g. this module requires a < operation) which can be instantiated by one of many modules
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2016-03-16T15:07:46Z taylan: interesting.  can't think of use-cases off-hand but it sounds pretty neat...
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2016-03-16T15:08:33Z vanila: the use is abstraction, you could define something in terms of a 'stack' say - then later on important a list implementation, or for a different part of the code use a tree to impl. the stack
2016-03-16T15:10:19Z taylan: davexunit: I think it's pretty nice when one can write a useful library that automatically works on many Scheme implementations.  I was able to do this with bytestructures without *too* many difficulties, but only because the library uses not much more than records and bytevectors.  however, if only we had also a portable networking and filesystem API, one could realistically write e.g. a
2016-03-16T15:10:19Z taylan: featureful HTTP server in Scheme, and many communities would benefit at once.
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2016-03-16T15:10:56Z taylan: (I realize Guile has its own HTTP server, and maybe that's also an advantage in some ways (e.g. quick fixes for Guix), but the point is that *having* to implement something in-house every time is bad)
2016-03-16T15:11:02Z cojy: guile is definitely scheme and benefits greatly from using scheme code other people wrote for scheme and not guile
2016-03-16T15:11:11Z cojy: basically all of its standard library
2016-03-16T15:11:56Z taylan: (er, Guix uses the HTTP client of Guile, not server)
2016-03-16T15:12:06Z vanila: I don't see how calling them different languages somehow excuses this huge design mistake that has caused lots of extra work for people
2016-03-16T15:12:12Z cojy: the reason for differences are not technically sound at all, they are only because 1. there was no standard 2. doing things like module systems is hard
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2016-03-16T15:12:55Z davexunit: taylan: but for bytestructures to be fast on Guile, or any implementation, you'd want to tweak it.
2016-03-16T15:13:36Z davexunit: I like how Racket just said screw it and does their own thing now.
2016-03-16T15:13:37Z taylan: davexunit: if the implementation supports syntax-case, one can use the syntactic API to hoist everything to macro expansion time.
2016-03-16T15:13:46Z davexunit: alright alright
2016-03-16T15:13:51Z davexunit: we're never going to agree here.
2016-03-16T15:14:03Z davexunit: I think standard Scheme is a waste of time, apparently no one else does.
2016-03-16T15:14:05Z davexunit: that's fine.
2016-03-16T15:14:07Z davexunit: moving on.
2016-03-16T15:14:10Z taylan: ok, we can agree to disagree :)
2016-03-16T15:15:17Z taylan: if I find time I'll try to write networking, filesystem, FFI, etc. SRFIs for R7RS-large next, though these things take a looooot of time and effort.  (SRFI-126 wore me out already.)
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2016-03-16T15:38:29Z YumYumYum: Haha, what a discussion I started :) Sorry about that. I am just surpirsed about how hard guile made it for me to import a library in the same directory. ikarus makes it easy, for example. I am however wiser now.
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2016-03-16T15:44:21Z davexunit: YumYumYum: It's trivial in Guile.  Use the module system!
2016-03-16T15:44:43Z davexunit: the problem is the way you are thinking with stuff like "the current directory"
2016-03-16T15:44:49Z davexunit: in Guile, you just ask for a module by its name
2016-03-16T15:45:00Z davexunit: (use-modules (foo bar))
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2016-03-16T21:12:30Z YumYumYum: davexunit
2016-03-16T21:12:34Z YumYumYum: oops. sorr
2016-03-16T21:12:36Z YumYumYum: y
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2016-03-16T22:39:19Z groovy2shoes: is there a rationale for R7RS-small somewhere?
2016-03-16T22:45:11Z qu1j0t3: jcowan might know
2016-03-16T22:45:19Z qu1j0t3: but he's not here man
2016-03-16T22:45:39Z qu1j0t3: (or woman. bad joke)
2016-03-16T22:47:22Z qu1j0t3: groovy2shoes: it's not in the report itself?
2016-03-16T22:51:54Z groovy2shoes: no
2016-03-16T22:52:03Z qu1j0t3: right. i did a bit of hunting around
2016-03-16T22:52:11Z qu1j0t3: it's certainly not in any obvious place
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2016-03-16T22:52:26Z groovy2shoes: it seems to be scattered on the wiki and mailing list archives, but I'm not in the mood for such a hunt
2016-03-16T22:52:31Z qu1j0t3: yeah
2016-03-16T22:52:41Z qu1j0t3: I would suggest that jcowan is the right person to ask
2016-03-16T22:52:49Z qu1j0t3: do you have his email?
2016-03-16T22:53:15Z groovy2shoes: yeah
2016-03-16T22:53:17Z groovy2shoes: thanks
2016-03-16T22:53:20Z qu1j0t3: np
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2016-03-17T20:45:47Z aeth: Just using some Googling, it looks like the simple way to do proper tail recursion outside of assembly is with a thunk and a trampoline. Is that the case or is Google giving me bad advice?
2016-03-17T20:47:24Z aeth: The solution seems suspiciously easy compared to the ideas I was thinking of.
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2016-03-17T21:14:16Z wasamasa: there are alternative ways
2016-03-17T21:14:53Z wasamasa: I implemented it in MAL by using an infinite loop in my eval, then jumping out once there's no more tail recursion to be done
2016-03-17T21:15:11Z wasamasa: relatively simple at the expense of making its implementation unreadable
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2016-03-17T21:29:11Z aeth: Wow, I think I might be more than half way through, then, as long as call/cc and macros aren't major obstacles.
2016-03-17T21:31:37Z wasamasa: macros are easy enough
2016-03-17T21:32:04Z aeth: I will be doing it a bit fancier, though, if it's easy enough.
2016-03-17T21:32:13Z wasamasa: debugging could be tricky and doing better than an unhygienic system, but eh
2016-03-17T21:32:18Z wasamasa: I'm less sure about call/cc
2016-03-17T21:33:00Z aeth: I have a define-scheme-procedure macro (and a bunch of related macros) to define Scheme procedures from CL. I wonder if I'll be able to find a way to do a define-scheme-syntax as well.
2016-03-17T21:33:43Z wasamasa: http://www.ccs.neu.edu/home/dorai/mbe/mbe-lsp.html
2016-03-17T21:33:45Z aeth: I will probably implement hygienic and unhygienic macros even though Scheme only requires the former.
2016-03-17T21:34:16Z aeth: call/cc will certainly require rewriting parts of what I already have, but I already wrapped those things into macros so I should only have to rewrite one macro (hopefully)
2016-03-17T21:34:49Z aeth: Well, I'll have to rewrite define-scheme-procedure, and might have to rewrite my thunk/trampoline.
2016-03-17T21:35:03Z aeth: Both of these are tiny though, so rewriting isn't bad.
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2016-03-18T00:21:45Z jcowan: ho hey
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2016-03-18T00:25:24Z qu1j0t3: jcowan, groovy2shoes was looking for r7rs-small rationale
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2016-03-18T00:26:16Z jcowan: http://scheme-reports.org/2009/working-group-1-charter.html
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2016-03-18T13:29:52Z ecraven: aeth: macros are usually built in scheme on top of a running scheme, so they are a different problem. call/cc can be hard :)
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2016-03-18T15:26:35Z aeth: I think I need to move the design from an interpreter to a CPS compiler (transpiler?) that then runs the CPS form through my trampoline (CL itself doesn't guarantee tail recursion).
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2016-03-18T18:16:58Z wasamasa: mhh
2016-03-18T18:17:02Z wasamasa: makes debugging considerably harder though
2016-03-18T18:17:08Z wasamasa: but hey, you get continuations for free
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2016-03-18T19:19:03Z aeth: wasamasa: Hopefully I'll be able to come up with improvements once I have it working.
2016-03-18T19:19:22Z ecraven: there should be an srfi for reading and writing CSV files :-)
2016-03-18T19:19:26Z wasamasa: lol
2016-03-18T19:19:40Z wasamasa: wouldn't that defeat the purpose of CSV?
2016-03-18T19:19:51Z wasamasa: it's a very loosely defined format after all...
2016-03-18T19:20:18Z aeth: There should be a SRFI for reading and writing s-expressions as data, as an alternative to JSON, XML, CSV, YAML, etc.
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2016-03-18T19:21:07Z aeth: The syntax would have to be compatible with both Scheme and CL, though. Not much point for such a format if it's not portable between languages and the alternatives are.
2016-03-18T19:21:31Z aeth: The problem with that would be that hash tables aren't built into Scheme.
2016-03-18T19:22:32Z wasamasa: http://people.csail.mit.edu/rivest/Sexp.txt
2016-03-18T19:22:45Z aeth: Not compatible enough
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2016-03-18T19:23:19Z aeth: e.g. it uses #f00# for hex instead of #xf00
2016-03-18T19:24:27Z aeth: A proper s-expression-as-data format should be essentially a subset of the intersection of the syntax of r7rs-small and Common Lisp, perhaps with a few additions on top of that like []s or {}s for added brevity.
2016-03-18T19:24:28Z wasamasa shrugs
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2016-03-18T19:24:42Z aeth: Sort of like how JSON is a subset of JavaScript
2016-03-18T19:24:46Z dr-lambda: there should be a srfi for the reading of the proprietary data files that they used to use at a place where i worked
2016-03-18T19:24:58Z dr-lambda: that would be neat
2016-03-18T19:25:02Z aeth: dr-lambda: good idea
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2016-03-19T01:05:57Z groovy2shoes: "The appendix to the Revised^4 Report [4] describes a sample low-level facility, but even that facility's own authors have repudiated it."
2016-03-19T01:06:15Z groovy2shoes: does anyone know where I can read about such repudiation?  what's wrong with R4RS's low-level macros?
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2016-03-19T01:58:52Z jcowan: ho hey ho
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2016-03-19T06:52:56Z X-Scale: groovy2shoes: are you refering to pages 40-46 of http://groups.csail.mit.edu/mac/classes/6.001/FT98/manuals/r4rs/r4rs.pdf ?
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2016-03-19T08:19:39Z ecraven: why are there uppercase gammas Γ in that pdf?
2016-03-19T08:29:23Z mokuso: page ?
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2016-03-19T13:47:07Z qu1j0t3: groovy2shoes: if jcowan doesn't know, you could try kent pitman, whose name is on that report; he's on twitter fwiw
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2016-03-19T13:47:23Z qu1j0t3: groovy2shoes: & he does respond to tweets
2016-03-19T13:47:38Z qu1j0t3: groovy2shoes: you could also poke around on Usenet.
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2016-03-19T13:54:43Z qu1j0t3: or the actual authors, Dybvig & Hieb, for that matter :)
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2016-03-19T22:03:31Z groovy2shoes: qu1j0t3, thanks... I may be mistaken, but iirc Hieb has passed on... I'll browse around usenet and if that doesn't yield any fruit, I'll see if Dybvig can make some time for me ;)
2016-03-19T22:04:16Z qu1j0t3: groovy2shoes: yeah i should have checked, it was a risk
2016-03-19T22:04:31Z qu1j0t3: groovy2shoes: Kent Pitman is alive and well, and responding :)
2016-03-19T22:04:39Z groovy2shoes: good to know, thanks :)
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2016-03-19T22:10:09Z groovy2shoes: he seems... much more political than I'd imagined
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2016-03-19T22:28:20Z mogunus: Hi, what’s the easiest way to get set up with a scheme repl in emacs that has nice features? Is Geiser a good solution?
2016-03-19T22:29:45Z aeth: geiser seems to be the Scheme equivalent to SLIME, which I use all the time.
2016-03-19T22:29:46Z X-Scale: groovy2shoes: specially when it comes to climate change -> http://www.nhplace.com/kent/
2016-03-19T22:30:24Z mogunus: Cool, that’s exactly what I want, a SLIME equivalent.
2016-03-19T22:30:26Z aeth: I don't use geiser because it only supports a few Schemes (iirc Racket, Guile, Chicken) and I usually don't use those.
2016-03-19T22:30:34Z mogunus: Ah.
2016-03-19T22:30:57Z mogunus: I’m not tied to an implementation, so I’ll just load up geiser and see what I think. Thanks.
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2016-03-21T02:18:47Z lorantalas: hi, can anybody suggest, I have a (<procedure> <name> <body>) with some small syntax, (in basically subset of scheme) is there way to associate <procedure> identifier with <define>? (those procedures is a simplified scheme function)
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2016-03-21T02:33:34Z groovy2shoes: lorantalas, I don't understand.  Can you give an example or two?
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2016-03-21T03:38:44Z lorantalas: i write explanation: http://pastebin.com/twcdRwWG
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2016-03-22T03:53:19Z aeth: Based on the trends in popular Hacker News thread titles, I have the perfect name for my Scheme written in Common Lisp.
2016-03-22T03:53:44Z aeth: Lisp Flavored Lisp
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2016-03-22T20:02:43Z names: akkad ski emmanueloga LeoNerd rsully mach Inode samw3 Tenhi keemyb nowhere_man metaf5 taij33n eska yrdz ecraven cmatei choas jeaye rotty jim jkraemer narendraj9 nimbleark GGMethos fizzie renopt stux|work nmeum DerGuteMoritz dsp- mj12`_ joast cibs sz0 chazu nitrix NaNDude tm512 foof dxtr na_th_an neuri8 carc woona m0li rx80 rpcope vikraman cross SHODAN harmchop XTL cojy emlow eli gabot drot _0x5eb_ aeth mario-goulart ineiros seg profan wasamasa timvisher
2016-03-22T20:02:43Z names: juanfra qu1j0t3 yosafbridge snits shymega eMBee Kryo gnomon dan64 amoe_ mrowe taylan ft samth greghendershott leo_song lloda micro`_ fgudin Neet jrdnull hive-mind oskarth ByronJohnson defanor chu cjh` clog snow_bckspc Guest74977 ELLIOTTCABLE stasku___ Guest33283 magically z0d askatasuna Kruppe jyc drforr1 CustosL1men turbofail r0kc4t zbigniew octo_ tokik asumu stamourv C-Keen klutometis finnrobi cky em Blkt_ benaiah pchrist abbe dualbus nckx|offline
2016-03-22T20:02:43Z names: chishiki shardz stephe sytse dsp SirDayBat ggherdov evhan dTal low-profile mlaine twem2 ohama Riviera wingo petercommand gf3 eagleflo {dpk} copec ec\ dbohdan cantstanya jackdaniel antoszka kwmiebach ozzloy vifino moredhel
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2016-03-23T02:30:13Z groovy2shoes: you guys like my new tattoo?  https://scontent.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xtp1/v/t1.0-9/10653564_10154013582737604_8888644933923796455_n.jpg?oh=344b5b916b52aee6e6f5d9fbf0eff0a3&oe=578BA74C
2016-03-23T02:31:05Z qu1j0t3: is it a lambda
2016-03-23T02:31:10Z groovy2shoes: yes
2016-03-23T02:31:18Z qu1j0t3: wow that was so much easier than copying a 3 line URL
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2016-03-23T02:31:24Z groovy2shoes: lol
2016-03-23T02:31:45Z groovy2shoes: sorry, I forget that not everyone's terminal makes URLs clickable
2016-03-23T02:32:05Z groovy2shoes: http://tinyurl.com/j8rfewq
2016-03-23T02:32:08Z groovy2shoes: that better?
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2016-03-23T02:33:54Z qu1j0t3: subtle
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2016-03-25T16:33:27Z AppAraat: hello, I got interested in the Guix package manager (https://www.gnu.org/software/guix/) and especially that it's written in a language that is also widely used (instead of Nix's own DSL which can only be used with Nix), and so I decided to learn the fundamental basics of Scheme as well. The thing is that I only know Bash on the level of almost doing anything useful and as such am a complete programming noob.
2016-03-25T16:33:30Z AppAraat: I visited the links in the /topic but I just wanted to know what the best place was for starting out for someone in a situation like mine.
2016-03-25T16:34:03Z milkshake: hello i want to use nested conditions.Like this: there is a list.It should consists number,lowercase,uppercase letters,symbols at the same time.How can i do it.I tried nested if but learned that it is not allowed
2016-03-25T16:34:29Z AppAraat: I've heard of SICP and many people recommended that it was fairly good, but would you still recommend starting out with that or is that something a bit above my level?
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2016-03-25T16:35:12Z milkshake: http://paste.lisp.org/display/311394 like here
2016-03-25T16:35:31Z wasamasa: SICP is not about learning scheme
2016-03-25T16:35:57Z milkshake: if one them is not satisfied it should be false
2016-03-25T16:36:02Z milkshake: s1
2016-03-25T16:36:55Z AppAraat: wasamasa: yeah that's one of the things I've heard as well, it's more about CS and algorithms in general, right?
2016-03-25T16:37:04Z wasamasa: AppAraat: understanding computation
2016-03-25T16:37:21Z wasamasa: if you want to learn about algorithms, read knuth :P
2016-03-25T16:37:22Z davexunit: AppAraat: "The Little Schemer" is a nice introduction to basic Scheme things and how to think recursively
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2016-03-25T16:37:51Z AppAraat: wasamasa: that's pretty interesting as well and is on my list of things to learn, but for now I want to do kind of 2 flies with one function kind of thing.
2016-03-25T16:38:02Z AppAraat: great I'll check that out, thanks davexunit
2016-03-25T16:38:14Z milkshake: please i need help
2016-03-25T16:38:42Z wasamasa: homework?
2016-03-25T16:39:25Z wasamasa: and yes, that way of solving it is pretty ugly :P
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2016-03-25T16:40:27Z milkshake: yes but i did rest
2016-03-25T16:40:39Z milkshake: here is where i stucked
2016-03-25T16:41:08Z wasamasa: I recommend http://srfi.schemers.org/srfi-1/srfi-1.html
2016-03-25T16:41:11Z milkshake: i am pretty new at this subject
2016-03-25T16:41:51Z wasamasa: or wait, hm
2016-03-25T16:42:06Z wasamasa: the every procedure should help
2016-03-25T16:44:52Z milkshake: what do you mean sir
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2016-03-25T16:45:43Z wasamasa: you don't expect me to post a full solution, right
2016-03-25T16:46:38Z milkshake: yes but you can tell me what should i do except reading that whole document that you send
2016-03-25T16:47:57Z wasamasa: I recommend reading about its every procedure
2016-03-25T16:48:10Z wasamasa: then think about what a suitable predicate and list to that would be
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2016-03-25T16:53:02Z AppAraat: it appears only 192 pages long, I can dig that.
2016-03-25T16:54:16Z qu1j0t3: AppAraat: beyond those, there are many other Scheme books. One that helped me was "Programming in Scheme", Eisenberg & Abelson
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2016-03-26T09:22:15Z j0llyr0tten: i'm following the snippets in TAPL and i was wondering if guile 2.0 can do 'em
2016-03-26T09:22:37Z j0llyr0tten: specifically how do i translate the following into scheme/guile
2016-03-26T09:22:58Z j0llyr0tten: tru = \t. \f. t
2016-03-26T09:23:12Z j0llyr0tten: and fls = \t. \f. f
2016-03-26T09:23:31Z j0llyr0tten: so that     tru 1 2    should give 1
2016-03-26T09:23:40Z j0llyr0tten: and     fls 1 2     should give 2
2016-03-26T09:23:43Z j0llyr0tten: :)
2016-03-26T09:26:09Z ggole: j0llyr0tten: \x.\y. term is something like (lambda (x) (lambda (y) term)) in scheme
2016-03-26T09:26:29Z ggole: Although a more natural translation is uncurried: (lambda (x y) x)
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2016-03-26T09:32:05Z j0llyr0tten: don't mind the uncurried for now
2016-03-26T09:32:56Z j0llyr0tten: i've spent some time wrestling with an online CL implementation and emacs elisp... Guile just works (tm)
2016-03-26T09:33:23Z ggole: CL should be fine, just a matter of funcall
2016-03-26T09:33:46Z ggole: elisp would need lexical binding to be turned on
2016-03-26T09:33:48Z j0llyr0tten: and the  foo = () part?
2016-03-26T09:33:57Z Guest63097: hi I want to add element to an empty list at first.Then for second element I should add it to one element list.For example at first i have () then add a and list becomes (a) then I add b then list becomes (a,b)
2016-03-26T09:34:11Z Guest63097: how can i do this i have code in here http://paste.lisp.org/display/311470
2016-03-26T09:34:12Z j0llyr0tten: exactly, i mean no lexical binding?
2016-03-26T09:34:15Z ggole: Er, what part is that?
2016-03-26T09:35:08Z ggole: Without lexical binding you would have to come up with some environment encoding, essentially performing your own manual closure conversion.
2016-03-26T09:35:18Z ggole: Quite possible, but a pain in the ass.
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2016-03-26T09:36:04Z Guest63097: anyone to help
2016-03-26T09:36:38Z j0llyr0tten: ggole: (define id (lambda (x) x))     and then  (id 1)   or    (id 2)    and so on work
2016-03-26T09:37:19Z ggole: In elisp? Well, that's not that interesting because the lambda is closed.
2016-03-26T09:37:24Z j0llyr0tten: but     (define tru (lambda (t) (lambda (f) t)))      and     (tru 1 2)    does not work, complains of "possibly wrong number of arguments"
2016-03-26T09:37:26Z ggole: (Meaning, no free variables.)
2016-03-26T09:37:36Z ggole: Ah, I see.
2016-03-26T09:37:37Z j0llyr0tten: guile
2016-03-26T09:37:42Z j0llyr0tten: 2.0
2016-03-26T09:38:19Z ggole: This is a pretty trivial problem: the *notation* for application in TAPL is grouped differently than in scheme
2016-03-26T09:38:41Z ggole: So f x y is not (f x y) but (f x) y
2016-03-26T09:38:44Z j0llyr0tten: ggole: sweet, i can look it up myself
2016-03-26T09:38:51Z ggole: In short, you need ((tru 1) 2)
2016-03-26T09:39:03Z j0llyr0tten: ggole: you are most helpful kind sir
2016-03-26T09:39:08Z j0llyr0tten: (or madam)
2016-03-26T09:39:20Z ggole: As you can see, the syntax of scheme is not designed for application of curried functions, whereas TAPL's is.
2016-03-26T09:39:58Z j0llyr0tten: i getcha
2016-03-26T09:40:28Z j0llyr0tten: maybe, i should use the more natural uncurried translation as you suggest
2016-03-26T09:40:54Z ggole: It would be nicer on the page. Depends how faithful you wanna be, really.
2016-03-26T09:41:31Z j0llyr0tten: TAPL is great but i *despair* that the example code is given in ML
2016-03-26T09:42:00Z ggole: Scheme isn't all that far from ML in some ways.
2016-03-26T09:42:05Z Guest63097: why not anyone helps me
2016-03-26T09:42:19Z j0llyr0tten: your question was hard to parse dude
2016-03-26T09:42:45Z Guest63097: what can i do
2016-03-26T09:42:45Z j0llyr0tten: shorter sentences, and try to be clearer? give more context?
2016-03-26T09:43:06Z j0llyr0tten: what is your native language?
2016-03-26T09:43:54Z j0llyr0tten: (i'm just asking out of interest, i'm not being mean)
2016-03-26T09:43:56Z Guest63097: i have an empty list.when I add a list becomes (a).Then I add b list becomes (a,b).Going like this
2016-03-26T09:44:08Z Guest63097: sure.Turkish
2016-03-26T09:44:40Z j0llyr0tten: customarily, there are spaces between full stops (periods) and the next sentence. like this. and this.
2016-03-26T09:44:57Z j0llyr0tten: :)
2016-03-26T09:45:01Z j0llyr0tten: ok, let's see
2016-03-26T09:45:49Z j0llyr0tten: do you want to write a function that appends an item to a list?
2016-03-26T09:45:57Z j0llyr0tten: is it for homework?
2016-03-26T09:46:30Z Guest63097: no i am trying a project with scheme
2016-03-26T09:46:40Z Guest63097: yes i want a function
2016-03-26T09:47:12Z Guest63097: i am new so do not know much
2016-03-26T09:47:30Z j0llyr0tten: well, cons, it think is to add to a list
2016-03-26T09:47:53Z j0llyr0tten: (cons 'a '()) -> (a)
2016-03-26T09:48:02Z Guest63097: but list should be updated every time new element is added
2016-03-26T09:48:10Z j0llyr0tten: see here: http://www.scheme.com/tspl4/objects.html#./objects:h3
2016-03-26T09:48:12Z wasamasa: one does not mutate lists in scheme
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2016-03-26T09:48:29Z wasamasa: append is another useful function for doing something else than prepending an element at a time
2016-03-26T09:48:38Z j0llyr0tten: ah, does scheme use immutable data structures like the new and trendy scala?
2016-03-26T09:48:46Z wasamasa: nope
2016-03-26T09:49:03Z wasamasa: it's just a lisp thing to be careful about mutating lists
2016-03-26T09:49:12Z wasamasa: http://shift-reset.com/blog/2014/2/28/List%20Mutation%20Public%20Service%20Announcement/
2016-03-26T09:49:20Z j0llyr0tten: i'll take your word for it
2016-03-26T09:49:28Z wasamasa: in clojure it should be no problem, but mutation is strictly forbidden there, too :P
2016-03-26T09:50:05Z wasamasa: and it's actually using immutable data structures
2016-03-26T09:50:44Z j0llyr0tten: maybe i was thinking about clojure, not scala :)
2016-03-26T09:50:53Z wasamasa: could very well be
2016-03-26T09:51:00Z j0llyr0tten: one of them anyway, designed by that super brainy brain box
2016-03-26T09:51:14Z wasamasa: I don't know anything about scala
2016-03-26T09:51:21Z j0llyr0tten: who wrote a whole book about immutable data structures and made them trendy
2016-03-26T09:51:56Z Guest63097: I want you to remember we were talking about my question
2016-03-26T09:52:22Z wasamasa: don't mutate lists, use append
2016-03-26T09:52:29Z wasamasa: happy?
2016-03-26T09:52:54Z Guest63097: but how can I supposed to update a list with  append
2016-03-26T09:53:01Z wasamasa: don't update lists
2016-03-26T09:53:15Z wasamasa: functional programming
2016-03-26T09:53:16Z Guest63097: every time it creates another lists
2016-03-26T09:53:24Z wasamasa: yes and that's the way it's supposed to be
2016-03-26T09:53:38Z j0llyr0tten: the others will be garbage collected, don't worry about them
2016-03-26T09:53:57Z j0llyr0tten: I was thinking about "Purely Functional Data Structures" by Okasaki
2016-03-26T09:54:12Z Guest63097: yes but i want to add three things to my list that users wrote
2016-03-26T09:54:32Z Guest63097: so i should update i
2016-03-26T09:54:33Z Guest63097: t
2016-03-26T09:54:42Z j0llyr0tten: But the Clojure guy is Rich Hickey. I shouldn't go on IRC with only 4 hours sleep.
2016-03-26T09:55:14Z j0llyr0tten: Guest63097: the way you phrased it, it sounded like you wanted to add one at a time
2016-03-26T09:55:26Z j0llyr0tten: to add three things, do it three times?
2016-03-26T09:55:36Z Guest63097: yes i will
2016-03-26T09:55:48Z Guest63097: there each command
2016-03-26T09:56:05Z wasamasa: the blog post above also answers the right way to update
2016-03-26T09:56:05Z j0llyr0tten: good, don't try to have a rigid idea of how it should work
2016-03-26T09:56:19Z wasamasa: use set! on the variable with the new value
2016-03-26T09:56:27Z j0llyr0tten: work the way your tool works
2016-03-26T09:57:02Z j0llyr0tten: like, for instance, i want guile to work like TAPL and it doesn't
2016-03-26T09:57:08Z wasamasa: lol
2016-03-26T09:57:18Z wasamasa: at least scheme is reasonably simple to adapt
2016-03-26T09:57:37Z wasamasa: you could for example write a growable array implementation that behaves the way you need to
2016-03-26T09:57:52Z wasamasa: it's just a bit silly for the above question when the built-ins do it
2016-03-26T09:58:01Z j0llyr0tten: i read over R5? in the past because it was so concise, and i thought there was a great architectural beauty about scheme
2016-03-26T09:58:12Z j0llyr0tten: that common lisp lacks, don't know what it is
2016-03-26T09:58:28Z wasamasa: and similiarly, uncurried lambdas are good enough for trying out lambda calculus
2016-03-26T09:58:59Z j0llyr0tten: Haskell does it "right", so to speak
2016-03-26T10:00:30Z j0llyr0tten: but then again, Haskell complains about this: (\i -> i)
2016-03-26T10:00:55Z j0llyr0tten: whereas guile will happily accept: (lambda (x) x)
2016-03-26T10:00:59Z j0llyr0tten: as it should
2016-03-26T10:01:30Z j0llyr0tten: haskell is almost too anal (if i can use that word) at the repl
2016-03-26T10:02:13Z j0llyr0tten: you can say, :t (\x -> x) and it will repond, (\x -> x) :: t -> t
2016-03-26T10:02:56Z ggole: What's the issue with that?
2016-03-26T10:03:26Z j0llyr0tten: guile gives you, $11 = #<procedure 16f9660 at <current input>:12:0 (x)>
2016-03-26T10:03:38Z ggole: Oh, it's the printing thing. Right.
2016-03-26T10:03:45Z j0llyr0tten: haskell gives you, No instance for (Show (t0 -> t0)) arising from a use of ‘print’ In a stmt of an interactive GHCi command: print it
2016-03-26T10:04:17Z j0llyr0tten: yes, ghci _could_ be nice and just print the anon function reference
2016-03-26T10:04:43Z ggole: It's because Show is used for toplevel printing, which is convenient in some ways and inadequate in others
2016-03-26T10:05:19Z j0llyr0tten: it's inadequate if it won't convenient represent the id function
2016-03-26T10:05:42Z Guest63097: how can i add something to existing list
2016-03-26T10:05:59Z Guest63097: without wiriting existing list
2016-03-26T10:06:19Z j0llyr0tten: Guest63097: ?
2016-03-26T10:06:50Z ggole: Compare, say, OCaml, which just prints <fun>
2016-03-26T10:07:05Z wasamasa: fun
2016-03-26T10:07:53Z j0llyr0tten: cool, or Ruby => #<Proc:0x000000012d9b68@(irb):1 (lambda)>
2016-03-26T10:08:04Z j0llyr0tten: for lambda{|x|x}
2016-03-26T10:09:34Z j0llyr0tten: if i were designing a repl for a typed (or even untyped!) lambda calculus i think (lambda (x) x) would just work (tm)
2016-03-26T10:10:59Z Guest63097: how can i add three elements to list
2016-03-26T10:11:11Z ggole: The design question here is really about whether to have readable (in the sense that the object can be reconstructed from the text) printed representations
2016-03-26T10:11:18Z wasamasa: mhh
2016-03-26T10:11:26Z wasamasa: I recall a comment about clojure going for that goal
2016-03-26T10:11:28Z Guest63097: not one time
2016-03-26T10:12:45Z micmus quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
2016-03-26T10:14:25Z Guest63097: anyone understand me
2016-03-26T10:15:11Z Guest63097: i have an empty list first.when I add a list becomes (a).Then I add b list becomes (a,b).Going like this
2016-03-26T10:16:02Z Guest63097: I want to use existing list but my code adds the elements empty list every time
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2016-03-26T10:19:24Z j0llyr0tten: Guest63097: paste your code somewhere so we can see it.
2016-03-26T10:19:50Z j0llyr0tten: Guest63097: what language and interpreter are you using?
2016-03-26T10:19:51Z Guest63097: http://paste.lisp.org/display/311470
2016-03-26T10:19:58Z Guest63097: drracket
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2016-03-26T10:21:12Z wasamasa: why are you reimplementing append?
2016-03-26T10:21:34Z wasamasa: also, #racket is over there
2016-03-26T10:22:04Z j0llyr0tten: maybe call it a different name from the built-in one Guest?
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2016-03-26T10:22:28Z j0llyr0tten: but i am only learning too so cannot tell if that is valid code or not :(
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2016-03-26T10:23:24Z wasamasa: well, it is
2016-03-26T10:23:53Z j0llyr0tten: i mean, if it is copied from that web page, and glancing at it it seems valid
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2016-03-26T10:24:38Z j0llyr0tten: my adive is do it in Ruby Guest. l.push(foo)
2016-03-26T10:24:48Z j0llyr0tten: only joking
2016-03-26T10:24:54Z j0llyr0tten: kind of
2016-03-26T10:24:59Z j0llyr0tten: no, i am
2016-03-26T10:25:27Z Guest63097: http://paste.lisp.org/+6OC4
2016-03-26T10:25:30Z Guest63097: here is my code
2016-03-26T10:25:33Z Guest63097: help me
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2016-03-26T10:26:00Z Guest63097: maybe you can understand better
2016-03-26T10:26:17Z wasamasa: the typical way to solve this problem is with recursion
2016-03-26T10:26:24Z j0llyr0tten: beyond my pay grade, sorry
2016-03-26T10:26:27Z wasamasa: or by using srfi-1 cleverly
2016-03-26T10:27:22Z Guest63097: (addToList lst '()) this row adds it empty list each time but how can i use previous list
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2016-03-26T10:27:38Z wasamasa: you recur with the appended list as new value
2016-03-26T10:27:48Z wasamasa: that's the idiomatic way of solving it
2016-03-26T10:28:05Z stepnem quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
2016-03-26T10:28:43Z Guest63097: but how can i use recursion here.how can i reach previous list
2016-03-26T10:29:36Z wasamasa: either define a function to recur into or use a named let
2016-03-26T10:30:27Z Guest63097: can you show me how to please? i can not do it
2016-03-26T10:32:43Z wasamasa: (define (add x y) (if (zero? y) x (add (add1 x) (sub1 y))))
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2016-03-26T10:36:20Z Guest63097: what are add1 and sub1
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2016-03-26T10:36:31Z Guest63097: drracket gives me error
2016-03-26T10:36:39Z wasamasa: :D
2016-03-26T10:36:52Z wasamasa: I told you, you should be asking #racket
2016-03-26T10:36:56Z wasamasa: because racket is no scheme
2016-03-26T10:37:31Z wasamasa: add1 and sub1 add and subtract one from the given number
2016-03-26T10:39:10Z Guest63097: what can i use instead of them
2016-03-26T10:39:16Z wasamasa: ask #racket
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2016-03-26T10:46:49Z wasamasa: anyway, here's a solution in CHICKEN: http://ix.io/uYf/scm
2016-03-26T10:48:35Z Guest63097: what is this
2016-03-26T10:48:39Z wasamasa: not racket
2016-03-26T10:48:52Z wasamasa: :>
2016-03-26T10:49:15Z Guest63097: i am going to crazy
2016-03-26T10:49:20Z Guest63097: noone helps me
2016-03-26T10:49:31Z wasamasa: what, you expect someone to just give you a solution?
2016-03-26T10:49:35Z Guest63097: yes
2016-03-26T10:49:38Z wasamasa: then pay them
2016-03-26T10:49:49Z wasamasa: this channel is for help, not spoonfeeding
2016-03-26T10:49:52Z Guest63097: this is so little thing
2016-03-26T10:50:10Z Guest63097: for someone in here
2016-03-26T10:50:28Z wasamasa: so far you got: a channel that could help you better, a blog post explaining how you should not solve the problem, an idiomatic scheme solution
2016-03-26T10:50:54Z wasamasa: don't get greedy :P
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2016-03-26T10:56:26Z j0llyr0tten: if i may return to the example from pg. 59 of TAPL?
2016-03-26T10:56:28Z j0llyr0tten: (define test (lambda (l) (lambda (m) (lambda (n) (l m n)))))
2016-03-26T10:56:38Z j0llyr0tten: (define tru (lambda (t) (lambda (f) t)))
2016-03-26T10:56:50Z j0llyr0tten: (define fls (lambda (t) (lambda (f) f)))
2016-03-26T10:57:11Z j0llyr0tten: i can't seem todo any variation of the following
2016-03-26T10:57:37Z j0llyr0tten: (test tru 1 2)
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2016-03-26T10:57:48Z j0llyr0tten: (test fls 1 2)
2016-03-26T10:59:00Z j0llyr0tten: so, ((tru 1) 2)    and    ((fls 1) 2)    return 1 and 2 repsectively like expected
2016-03-26T10:59:24Z j0llyr0tten: but i can't seem to stir `test` into the mix :( any ideas?
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2016-03-26T11:45:34Z ggole: j0llyr0tten: ((l m) n)
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2016-03-26T13:38:34Z arya123: is there a database in scheme?
2016-03-26T13:38:50Z arya123: is it possible we can create a db with scheme as a list
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2016-03-26T13:52:42Z wasamasa: sure
2016-03-26T13:52:54Z wasamasa: no idea why you'd want to do that though, other than learning purposes
2016-03-26T13:54:56Z wasamasa: here's one http://wiki.call-cc.org/eggref/4/sdbm
2016-03-26T13:56:17Z wasamasa: from a quick glance over the sources, it's purely scheme and uses a more sensible data structure than lists
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2016-03-26T21:30:17Z eli: wasamasa: the person that should have left for not talking proper scheme was *you*.  (Hint: look for add1 and sub1 in scheme.)
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2016-03-27T00:21:41Z olpery: (defun fact (lambda (n) (if (<= n 1) 1 (* n (fact (- n 1))))))
2016-03-27T00:21:44Z olpery: this is scheme, right?
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2016-03-27T00:24:06Z pjb: No, it looks like CL or emacs lisp.
2016-03-27T00:24:15Z pjb: err, it looks like nothing.
2016-03-27T00:24:25Z olpery: pjb: replace defun with define :)
2016-03-27T00:24:25Z pjb: (define fact (lambda (n) (if (<= n 1) 1 (* n (fact (- n 1)))))) is scheme
2016-03-27T00:24:31Z olpery: right
2016-03-27T00:24:38Z pjb: (defun fact (n) (if (<= n 1) 1 (* n (fact (- n 1))))) ; is CL or emacs lisp.
2016-03-27T00:25:03Z olpery: pjb: so my question is, i CL i don't use the "lambda" keyword. Trying to understand if there's a difference
2016-03-27T00:25:17Z olpery: is the CL version just plain function calls, or is there a lambda expr involved
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2016-03-27T00:25:36Z olpery: i'm from the OOP skool of thought, and utterly confused
2016-03-27T00:25:46Z pjb: defun is a macro. It expands to (setf (symbol-function 'fact) (lambda (n) (block fact  (if (<= n 1) 1 (* n (fact (- n 1)))))))
2016-03-27T00:25:55Z pjb: more or less.
2016-03-27T00:26:27Z pjb: The difference is that in scheme there is only one namespace for both variables and functions, but in CL and emacs lisp, there are two namespaces.
2016-03-27T00:26:43Z pjb: So you can have both a variable and a function named by the same symbol in CL or emacs lisp.
2016-03-27T00:27:02Z olpery: oh
2016-03-27T00:27:26Z pjb: In CL: (setf (symbol-value 'foo) 42 (symbol-function 'foo) (lambda (n) (1+ n))) (foo foo) --> 43
2016-03-27T00:27:32Z olpery: so in lisp-y languages, every function is a lambda?
2016-03-27T00:27:37Z pjb: Yes.
2016-03-27T00:28:33Z olpery: but a lambda, by definition, is anonymous, so defun thus means assigning the lambda to named variable?
2016-03-27T00:29:07Z pjb: like define
2016-03-27T00:29:27Z olpery: awesome
2016-03-27T00:29:40Z pjb: lambda is a constructor for literal functions. Like 42 or 3.141592 is a literal number.
2016-03-27T00:30:19Z pjb: Sometimes you give names to numbers, like (define pi 3.141592) so now you can refer to ᴨ as pi instead of writing the literal value 3.141592.
2016-03-27T00:30:35Z pjb: Similarly, you can give names to functions (define fact (lambda …))
2016-03-27T00:31:15Z pjb: In scheme, you can also move around the parameters in a sort of currying with define: (define (fact n) (if (<= n 1) 1 (* n (fact (- n 1)))))
2016-03-27T00:31:39Z pjb: this expands to the normal form (define fact (lambda (n) (if (<= n 1) 1 (* n (fact (- n 1)))))).
2016-03-27T00:31:57Z pjb: In both cases, it binds the function to the variable named fact, thus "naming" the function.
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2016-03-27T00:32:50Z olpery: pjb: makes sense
2016-03-27T00:33:22Z olpery: what confused me is how this could possible occur to someone in 1957
2016-03-27T00:34:15Z pjb: Actually lambda calculus was invented in the 30's by Alonzo Church.
2016-03-27T00:35:17Z olpery: yeah, but still, taking the step to a programming language at a time when people were doing fortran, and barely that
2016-03-27T00:35:24Z olpery: i'm impressed :)
2016-03-27T00:38:52Z pjb: Rightly so.
2016-03-27T00:39:05Z pjb: John McCarthy invented a lot of thing. For example, time sharing!
2016-03-27T00:39:21Z olpery: indeed
2016-03-27T00:41:10Z olpery: pjb: not sure if i like one or two namespaces... what's your take?
2016-03-27T00:42:16Z pjb: My take is that in natural languages we have verbs and nouns and we routinely over load words to work in both roles.  So you can smurf a smurf, or book a book, or file a file and so on.
2016-03-27T00:42:49Z pjb: So it is natural to be able to write (lambda (list) (list list list)), with the second list making reference to a function, while the last two lists make reference to the parameter variable.
2016-03-27T00:43:29Z pjb: In scheme, this can work only if list is the same in all three cases and is a function that takes two arguments: ((lambda (list) (list list list)) cons) --> (#<cons> . #<cons>)
2016-03-27T00:43:42Z pjb: In CL ((lambda (list) (list list list)) 42)  --> (42 42)
2016-03-27T00:44:06Z olpery: oh
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2016-03-27T00:45:21Z olpery: pjb: could you expain the syntax there? list list list, but only two 42's
2016-03-27T00:45:52Z pjb: Having only one namespace means that there are a lot more collisions.  Therefore macros have to be hygienic.  In CL, we make do very easily with unhygienic macros, because having two namespaces, the collisions are rarer (and it's forbidden to override or redefine CL operators).
2016-03-27T00:47:20Z pjb: (list list list) in scheme, we evaluate the same variable 3 times (in any order).  So if the variable is bound to the function (lambda (a d) (lambda (c) (c a d))) then (list list list) will be equivalent to ((lambda (a d) (lambda (c) (c a d))) (lambda (a d) (lambda (c) (c a d))) (lambda (a d) (lambda (c) (c a d)))) and will therefore return (lambda (c) (c (lambda (a d) (lambda (c) (c a d))) (lambda (a d) (lambda (c) (c a d))))).
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2016-03-27T00:49:27Z pjb: (list list list) in CL does not evaluate the first list.  Instead, it finds the first list in the function name space. Since it's the symbol CL:LIST, it cannot be redefined by the user program, and the CL implementation is allowed to "opencode" the call (eg. inline it).  Then it evaluates the two arguments from left to right.  Evaluating the symbol list searches it in the variable namespace.  If there is a parameter variable bound t
2016-03-27T00:49:27Z pjb: 42, then it will return 42 , and then 42, and the call will be equivalent to (list 42 42) or to (cons 42 (cons 42 nil)) or anything else the implementation wants to do to build a list of 2 elements.
2016-03-27T00:50:32Z olpery: woot
2016-03-27T00:50:47Z olpery: i'll re-read that a couple of times
2016-03-27T00:51:21Z olpery: and by couple of times i mean maybe a couple of hundred times
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2016-03-27T00:51:31Z pjb: better read the 36 pages of the r5rs scheme standard, and the chapter 3 of CLHS.
2016-03-27T00:51:55Z olpery: what's best, scheme or clisp?
2016-03-27T00:52:02Z olpery: for practical programming
2016-03-27T00:52:31Z pjb: For practical, I would say CL.
2016-03-27T00:52:48Z pjb: I just posted on cll and cls a quote by Steele comparing CL and scheme.
2016-03-27T00:53:09Z olpery: yeah? what's the quote?
2016-03-27T00:54:05Z pjb: It's too long for here.  From the foreword of Scheme and the Art of Programming (1989) by Springer and Friedman.
2016-03-27T00:54:19Z pjb: news://comp.lang.scheme
2016-03-27T00:54:48Z olpery: heh, haven't used news: since the 90s
2016-03-27T00:55:06Z olpery: i'll google
2016-03-27T00:55:32Z pjb: Well, you can use google groups, but it's not the best user interface to usenet.
2016-03-27T00:55:36Z pjb: Better use GNUS.
2016-03-27T00:55:39Z olpery: Carpentry is one of my hobbies. ...
2016-03-27T00:55:42Z pjb: yes.
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2016-03-27T00:58:40Z olpery: not sure I get what he's saying though... scheme has a ton of impractical tools that get any job done?
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2016-03-27T00:59:28Z pjb: scheme is nice to show off a 6-yo the various kinds of tools.  And to do little jobs, like making a hole in a desk to pass an ethernet cable.
2016-03-27T00:59:41Z pjb: But if you want to build a stair case, or a house, use the real tool, Common Lisp.
2016-03-27T01:00:51Z pjb: Now, you wouldn't gift a 6-yo a workshop stuffed full of tools.  You would give him a swiss knife.  But you wouldn't expect him to come back 20 years later with his swiss knife to build your house.
2016-03-27T01:01:10Z pjb: So you can teach scheme to students, but as professionals, they should be using Common Lisp.
2016-03-27T01:01:27Z pjb: Only, CS students are not 6-yo.  IMO they should be able to learn CL directly.
2016-03-27T01:01:32Z olpery: in which case, you might as well teach students common lisp
2016-03-27T01:01:36Z pjb: Exactly.
2016-03-27T01:01:41Z olpery: so scheme is shit
2016-03-27T01:01:44Z pjb: No.
2016-03-27T01:01:51Z pjb: It's very good, to teach to 6-yo!
2016-03-27T01:02:23Z olpery: i'd pick Logo for that :)
2016-03-27T01:02:30Z olpery: another lisp
2016-03-27T01:02:49Z pjb: Also, you will have to learn emacs lisp anyways, to use emacs.  So you will end learning scheme, emacs lisp, Common Lisp, and perhaps a few other lisps too.
2016-03-27T01:02:55Z olpery looks for his turtle robot
2016-03-27T01:03:43Z olpery: i think i'll make a little lisp implementation to solidify my understanding
2016-03-27T01:03:44Z pjb: It's trivial to implement a turtle in any language, including in scheme or CL.
2016-03-27T01:03:54Z pjb: olpery: definitely!
2016-03-27T01:04:13Z pjb: And there, it's also easier to implement a scheme rather than CL (given the comparison above).
2016-03-27T01:04:27Z olpery: indeed
2016-03-27T01:05:03Z olpery: http://www.r6rs.org is the authorative reference?
2016-03-27T01:06:04Z pjb: skip it. we go directly from r5rs to r7rs.
2016-03-27T01:06:29Z pjb: Actually, CL has more than 2 namespaces, more like an infinite namespaces (but at least a dozen of them with the standard operators).  (flet ((foo (foo) (throw 'foo foo))) (block foo (lambda (foo) (catch 'foo (tagbody (foo (go foo)) foo foo))))) to exemplify just a few ;-)
2016-03-27T01:06:37Z olpery: http://trac.sacrideo.us/wg/wiki/R7RSHomePage i suppose
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2016-03-27T01:06:54Z pjb: http://schemer.org/
2016-03-27T01:07:05Z olpery: thanks
2016-03-27T01:07:17Z pjb: http://schemers.org/
2016-03-27T01:07:20Z olpery: pjb: chinense
2016-03-27T01:07:24Z olpery: ahaha
2016-03-27T01:08:05Z pjb: all right r7rs-big is not complete yet. But soon.
2016-03-27T01:09:31Z olpery: it was 1:50 twenty minutes ago, now 3:10. That totally freaked me out.
2016-03-27T01:09:54Z olpery: DST switch tonight, apparently...
2016-03-27T01:10:01Z pjb: lisp is a lot of fun.  learn it, write programs with it!
2016-03-27T01:10:06Z olpery: will do
2016-03-27T01:10:41Z olpery: i went assbackwards into the functional world... i understand monads, but can't code in lisp
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2016-03-27T01:10:46Z olpery: embarrasing
2016-03-27T01:10:51Z pjb: Right, 3:10, we're way too late :-)
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2016-03-27T01:11:08Z olpery: pjb: i'm loaded with coffee, alas
2016-03-27T01:11:14Z olpery: gonna do an allnighter
2016-03-27T01:11:26Z pjb: olpery: in Common Lisp object system (CLOS), there are method combinations.  These are actually monads.
2016-03-27T01:11:37Z olpery: interesting
2016-03-27T01:11:50Z olpery: are there parser combinators too?
2016-03-27T01:11:59Z pjb: (if I'm not wrong, I don't really master monads concretely, I only have a high level notion of them).
2016-03-27T01:12:09Z pjb: Not in CL itself, but there are libraries.
2016-03-27T01:12:13Z olpery: cool
2016-03-27T01:12:27Z pjb: cf. http://cliki.net/ (equivalent of schemers.org)
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2016-03-27T01:12:43Z olpery: awesome
2016-03-27T01:14:08Z olpery: pjb: are there fmap/foldl things in lisp, or is that dialect specific?
2016-03-27T01:14:43Z pjb: foldr/foldl is reduce (with :from-end t arguments for foldl or r).
2016-03-27T01:15:02Z olpery: ok
2016-03-27T01:15:38Z pjb: what is fmap?  there are map, mapcar mapcon mapcan mapc mapl maplist and map-into in CL.
2016-03-27T01:16:28Z olpery: functor (haskell terminology, not sure if lisp has anything like it)
2016-03-27T01:17:06Z olpery: very important to implement monads
2016-03-27T01:20:21Z olpery: pjb: thanks for all the help. Later.
2016-03-27T01:21:18Z pjb: Good night!
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2016-03-27T02:08:06Z dcz: hello guys , i am trying to make a password checker, i will get a username and his pw, if password is strong enough, i will save last 3 passwords to the username list. however i couldnt save last 3 passwords to the list. can anybody help me ? here my code is https://dpaste.de/EQzD
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2016-03-27T14:42:33Z aragon456: hello! for some code a list is defined () and after a function returned list becomes (a b c).Next time we run the code we get list empty not (a b c) as you know.But is it possible that we get (a b c)
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2016-03-27T14:58:33Z ijp: I'm not sure I understand what you are asking for. Do you have a runnable example?
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2016-03-27T15:04:06Z pjb: aragon456: when you say "for some code", we understand it as ∃code, and therefore you are enouncing some mathematical proposition.  What do you want us to say?
2016-03-27T15:04:26Z pjb: If I tell you ∃x, x=3; what do you answer?
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2016-03-27T15:07:30Z ijp: what emotion would x=3 express if treated as an emoticon?
2016-03-27T15:10:40Z wasamasa: ijp: I assume aragon456 is dcz, so see https://dpaste.de/EQzD for that
2016-03-27T15:11:00Z wasamasa: because sticking to a nickname is boring
2016-03-27T15:15:41Z wasamasa: also, asking #racket
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2016-03-27T15:20:54Z aragon456: do you have this code any other place
2016-03-27T15:21:59Z aragon456: wasamasa
2016-03-27T15:24:54Z wasamasa: #racket is that other place
2016-03-27T15:25:08Z aragon456: send me the code again
2016-03-27T15:25:13Z aragon456: link is not working
2016-03-27T15:25:25Z wasamasa: lol
2016-03-27T15:25:32Z wasamasa: well, that's your own fault, I don't have it either
2016-03-27T15:25:46Z aragon456: what did i do
2016-03-27T15:26:00Z wasamasa: you made an expiring pastebin
2016-03-27T15:26:07Z wasamasa: that pastebin expired
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2016-03-28T19:49:25Z arya123: does (append a b) command adds list a to b or list b to list a ?
2016-03-28T19:49:43Z wasamasa: it returns a new list consisting of a concatenated to b
2016-03-28T19:50:12Z arya123: but is there an answer for my question
2016-03-28T19:50:27Z arya123: because I want to use it for my work
2016-03-28T19:50:36Z ijp: append mutates neither list
2016-03-28T19:51:12Z wasamasa: arya123: welcome to functional programming
2016-03-28T19:51:24Z wasamasa: arya123: programming is not about beating your tools into submission :P
2016-03-28T19:51:34Z ijp: TIL
2016-03-28T19:52:07Z wasamasa: well, unless it's emacs we're speaking of
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2016-03-28T20:00:05Z arya123: but in new list a first element right? I mean new list is (a b)
2016-03-28T20:00:40Z wasamasa: no
2016-03-28T20:00:51Z wasamasa: for that you'd use (list a b) ;=> (a b)
2016-03-28T20:01:13Z ijp: huh, no rudybot in #scheme
2016-03-28T20:01:41Z arya123:  (append '(a) '(b))
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2016-03-28T20:02:00Z wasamasa: rudybot is racket
2016-03-28T20:02:07Z wasamasa: so I'm not surprised
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2016-03-28T20:02:34Z ijp: wasamasa: so? he's been on here for years
2016-03-28T20:02:44Z wasamasa shrugs
2016-03-28T20:02:49Z wasamasa: I haven't
2016-03-28T20:03:11Z ijp: or rather, he had been on here for years
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2016-03-28T20:11:59Z arya123: i write this code for adding new element to end of list https://paste.kde.org/phrknxsio .but it works for first command not others.maybe someone wants me to help
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2016-03-28T20:15:30Z pierpa: arya123: you need a set! also in the else branch
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2016-03-28T20:55:21Z arya123: https://paste.kde.org/phrknxsio#line-6
2016-03-28T20:55:39Z arya123: did someone answered myy question
2016-03-28T20:55:49Z arya123: my connection was reset
2016-03-28T20:55:52Z qu1j0t3: arya123: no
2016-03-28T20:56:01Z qu1j0t3: arya123: well, pierpa did say this:
2016-03-28T20:56:01Z arya123: but I was not aware of that
2016-03-28T20:56:06Z qu1j0t3:     pierpa | arya123: you need a set! also in the else branch
2016-03-28T20:59:18Z arya123: qu1j0t3 if i write like that it wont do anything for else branch
2016-03-28T20:59:29Z arya123: gives nothing
2016-03-28T20:59:52Z qu1j0t3: wrong guy. ask pierpa
2016-03-28T20:59:58Z qu1j0t3 hasn't seen your paste
2016-03-28T21:00:26Z arya123: https://paste.kde.org/phrknxsio#line-6
2016-03-28T21:00:36Z arya123: what is pierpa
2016-03-28T21:00:45Z arya123: I do not know
2016-03-28T21:04:50Z mikeyhc: arya123: (else (set! the-list (append (cdr the-list) (list newPsw))))
2016-03-28T21:04:58Z mikeyhc: arya123: not tested
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2016-03-28T21:05:40Z qu1j0t3: arya123: it's a nickname.
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2016-03-28T21:07:18Z arya123: mikeyhc I did that but it gives nothing for else branch
2016-03-28T21:09:00Z wasamasa: either way, the set! will only change the local variable
2016-03-28T21:09:16Z wasamasa: so this is a pointless exercise
2016-03-28T21:09:32Z wasamasa: why don't you just use set! directly on the global variable?
2016-03-28T21:09:39Z mikeyhc: arya123: you don't return anything, if you want to return it you need to add the-list to the end of the append
2016-03-28T21:10:15Z mikeyhc: arya123: https://paste.kde.org/pzsgugyfv
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2016-03-28T21:14:33Z arya123: thank you very much mikeyhc
2016-03-28T21:14:39Z arya123: that worked for me
2016-03-28T21:15:02Z arya123: i am really happy thanks to you :)
2016-03-28T21:15:13Z mikeyhc: more than welcome
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2016-03-30T20:50:27Z madmax96:   /msg NickServ VERIFY REGISTER madmax96 gxrihjhgmvrd
2016-03-30T20:50:34Z madmax96: how embarrasing
2016-03-30T20:51:19Z pierpa: a good password wasted :)
2016-03-30T20:51:33Z mokuso: and that's why I always do it at the server tab :P
2016-03-30T20:51:34Z madmax96: That's what I get for copy and pasting and not checking spaces :p
2016-03-30T20:52:03Z madmax96: I figure that I've been on here enough it was time to register my username
2016-03-30T20:52:50Z madmax96: anyway, the real reason I came was to talk about Guile's `scm->pointer` function. I have a code snippet up at http://pastebin.com/3yridErB -- I can't understand why it's evaluating to false.
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2016-03-30T21:01:20Z daviid: madmax96: prob get more/better help if you post this quiz to #guile.  note tht we don't like pastebin bcause it use non free js, use lippaste instead, or any that do not use JS...
2016-03-30T21:01:59Z madmax96: daviid: thanks, I'll give that a shot:) I'll also switch over to lippaste.
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