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2016-02-01T17:37:50Z f-a left #scheme 2016-02-01T17:38:13Z annodomini joined #scheme 2016-02-01T17:38:25Z jao quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2016-02-01T17:38:51Z f-a joined #scheme 2016-02-01T17:39:25Z nilg quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-02-01T17:39:26Z f-a: I am having problems with gambit scheme (debian jessie). It seems it is not recognising syntax-rules. does anyone here know how to solve it? 2016-02-01T17:44:32Z quinoa quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-02-01T17:45:21Z psy_ quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-02-01T17:50:37Z f-a: (alternatively, which scheme supports syntax-rules and has a cosy repl :P) 2016-02-01T17:51:53Z micmus joined #scheme 2016-02-01T17:52:47Z nalaginrut quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-02-01T17:53:19Z Mokuso: could you give me an example that doesn't run in gambit scheme? I'm a beginner, so I haven't found the limits of mit-scheme I'm using on my deb based system. 2016-02-01T17:53:40Z Mokuso: *yet 2016-02-01T17:54:16Z Mokuso: I don't like the repl of mitscheme much though, cos it doesn't do the trick with the parentheses when they are closed as in CL. 2016-02-01T17:55:21Z Mokuso: Writing the code in a proper editor helps though, so I guess I don't mind much. Just not using the repl, only running my scripts. 2016-02-01T17:56:42Z f-a: sure Mokuso http://paste.debian.net/377994/ 2016-02-01T18:00:17Z Mokuso: f-a, http://pastebin.com/ae3XiT5u 2016-02-01T18:00:40Z f-a: yeah it works, Mokuso 2016-02-01T18:00:58Z amgarching joined #scheme 2016-02-01T18:01:07Z Mokuso: cool :> 2016-02-01T18:01:15Z f-a: I mean, that's expected behviour 2016-02-01T18:01:37Z Mokuso: yeh 2016-02-01T18:02:36Z quinoa joined #scheme 2016-02-01T18:03:29Z quinoa quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-02-01T18:07:02Z Riastradh joined #scheme 2016-02-01T18:08:16Z gravicappa joined #scheme 2016-02-01T18:08:41Z f-a quit (Quit: nice lenies) 2016-02-01T18:09:40Z magine-pc quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2016-02-01T18:10:20Z magine-pc joined #scheme 2016-02-01T18:12:34Z lritter quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-02-01T18:15:50Z ecraven: Mokuso: use emacs and SLIME, that does wonders for the repl 2016-02-01T18:15:58Z ecraven: or edwin (which comes with mit/gnu scheme) 2016-02-01T18:16:17Z ecraven: mit-scheme -edit starts edwin (an emacs "clone") 2016-02-01T18:16:26Z amgarching quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-02-01T18:17:25Z Mokuso: hmm let me check, thanks 2016-02-01T18:19:39Z Mokuso: edwin looks nice, and most likely related to emacs judging by the commands 2016-02-01T18:19:41Z Mokuso: thanks :> 2016-02-01T18:20:21Z ecraven: Mokuso: apart from not having colours, it is a *very* nice environment for Scheme :) 2016-02-01T18:20:42Z ecraven: one of these days I have to update my colours patch and try to get it into mainline ;-/ 2016-02-01T18:20:47Z Mokuso: much better than the console that's for sure :) 2016-02-01T18:21:08Z cemerick quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-02-01T18:22:33Z neuri8- joined #scheme 2016-02-01T18:22:59Z neuri8 quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2016-02-01T18:24:12Z estevo joined #scheme 2016-02-01T18:29:06Z ecraven: Mokuso: maybe look at the user manual, it explains some interesting things 2016-02-01T18:29:55Z amgarching joined #scheme 2016-02-01T18:32:58Z magine-pc quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-02-01T18:36:13Z neuri8- quit (Quit: L) 2016-02-01T18:40:57Z neuri8 joined #scheme 2016-02-01T18:41:52Z DGASAU quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-02-01T18:42:27Z DGASAU joined #scheme 2016-02-01T18:42:52Z AaronW quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2016-02-01T18:43:25Z AaronW joined #scheme 2016-02-01T18:44:26Z magine-pc joined #scheme 2016-02-01T18:50:35Z psy_ joined #scheme 2016-02-01T18:51:01Z w3pm joined #scheme 2016-02-01T18:54:47Z amgarching quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2016-02-01T18:57:47Z magine-pc quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2016-02-01T18:58:42Z amgarching joined #scheme 2016-02-01T19:03:38Z f-a joined #scheme 2016-02-01T19:08:28Z wasamasa quit (Quit: ZNC - 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ZZZzzz…) 2016-02-01T22:47:48Z magine-pc joined #scheme 2016-02-01T22:48:05Z f-a joined #scheme 2016-02-01T22:49:16Z quinoa joined #scheme 2016-02-01T22:50:19Z f-a: http://paste.lisp.org/display/306334 in this paste (primes with streams) the function `toast` only works for (toast 1001) and gives stack overflow for (toast 10001). Can I ask you to try it on your machine/implementation? 2016-02-01T22:50:29Z f-a: I am using guile 2016-02-01T22:51:26Z civodul quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 24.5.1)) 2016-02-01T22:51:32Z Heranort quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-02-01T23:01:22Z m0li joined #scheme 2016-02-01T23:01:25Z wandji joined #scheme 2016-02-01T23:01:58Z phax joined #scheme 2016-02-01T23:03:18Z wandji: I've installed mit-scheme on Mac. How can I 'execute' a .scm file directly? I'm looking for something like: "scheme hello.scm" to result in 'Hello, World!' written to STDOUT. 2016-02-01T23:04:33Z wasamasa: mit-scheme --quiet < hello.scm 2016-02-01T23:11:41Z wandji: Thanks, wasamasa! 2016-02-01T23:11:48Z wasamasa: you're welcome 2016-02-01T23:12:46Z quinoa_ joined #scheme 2016-02-01T23:13:06Z lritter joined #scheme 2016-02-01T23:13:57Z pierpa quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-02-01T23:14:16Z pierpa joined #scheme 2016-02-01T23:15:15Z badkins joined #scheme 2016-02-01T23:16:34Z quinoa quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2016-02-01T23:18:14Z AaronW quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-02-01T23:23:45Z mastokley joined #scheme 2016-02-01T23:28:18Z wandji quit (Quit: Page closed) 2016-02-01T23:32:03Z nilg joined #scheme 2016-02-01T23:32:32Z Riastradh joined #scheme 2016-02-01T23:34:06Z magine-pc quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2016-02-01T23:35:05Z magine-pc joined #scheme 2016-02-01T23:40:37Z amokr quit (Quit: leaving) 2016-02-01T23:43:56Z magine-pc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-02-01T23:44:29Z quinoa_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-02-01T23:54:11Z davexunit joined #scheme 2016-02-01T23:58:37Z nilg quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-02-01T23:59:03Z ski: f-a : a few random comments/associations. (style) use `and',`or',`not' instead of `cond' in `prime?'. you're using "odd" streams; perhaps "even" streams could be nicer/better ? (i'm not sure) (see (SML) "How to add laziness to a strict language without even being odd" by Philip Wadler,Walid Taha,David MacQueen in 1998-09 at ) 2016-02-01T23:59:04Z rudybot: http://teensy.info/y4MdhVUXp6 2016-02-01T23:59:20Z ski: f-a : also SRFI 45 "Primitives for Expressing Iterative Lazy Algorithms" by André van Tonder in 2003 - 2004 at may be interesting. perhaps also see (Haskell) "The Genuine Sieve of Eratosthenes" by Melissa O'Neill in 2009 at for another algorithm 2016-02-02T00:02:41Z quinoa joined #scheme 2016-02-02T00:04:15Z f-a: thanks, ski , I appreciate your comments 2016-02-02T00:06:58Z phax quit (Quit: phax) 2016-02-02T00:08:57Z f-a: ski: reading the incipit of that srfi, it really feels like my case (unbounded memory problem) 2016-02-02T00:08:59Z f-a: let's see if it works 2016-02-02T00:10:51Z f-a: as for the algo, writing the same in haskell works (ghc rather, ghc is pretty good at optimizing) 2016-02-02T00:16:17Z mastokley quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-02-02T00:20:15Z f-a: ski: just one thing, I am not sure what you mean with "use `and` `or` `not` instead of cond". How exactly? 2016-02-02T00:21:29Z Menche quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-02-02T00:26:41Z ski: f-a : `(define (prime? n ps) (let (h (head ps)) (or (> (* h h) n) (and ....))))' -- no mention of `#t' or `#f'. iow, try to express the condition "logically" ("what is the declarative/logical condition ?") instead of "procedurally" ("if this, then return that, else something else") 2016-02-02T00:27:28Z f-a: I see, thanks ski 2016-02-02T00:27:56Z ski: and time you have a conditional (`cond' or `if') that will return a boolean, try to think of a sensible way to rephrase it using the logical connectives 2016-02-02T00:28:02Z ski: s/and time/any time/ 2016-02-02T00:29:00Z bb010g joined #scheme 2016-02-02T00:30:08Z Mokuso quit (Quit: later) 2016-02-02T00:33:07Z nilg joined #scheme 2016-02-02T00:34:44Z ski: (it's also useful to know that anything that isn't `#f' will be treated as a "true" value. so `or' will yield the value of the first disjunct that isn't `#f' (will yield `#f' if all are `#f'); and `and' will yield the value of the last conjunct if none of the conjuncts are `#f' (in case of no conjuncts, it yields `#t'; if some conjunct is `#f', it yields that) -- this can be used to creative effect) 2016-02-02T00:36:12Z ski: (and, obviously, `and' and `or' are short-circuiting -- will evaluate operands from left-to-right, and won't evaluate more if the answer is determined already) 2016-02-02T00:36:38Z f-a: becuase they are macros, rigth? 2016-02-02T00:36:40Z f-a: *right? 2016-02-02T00:37:21Z ski: because they are syntax / special forms 2016-02-02T00:37:50Z ski: syntax that is defined in terms of other syntax is known as macros 2016-02-02T00:39:57Z ski: (in some implementations, `if' might be primitive syntax, and `cond' defined as a macro expanding to the former. in some other implementations, it may be the opposite way around. or perhaps neither are primitive in the implementation at hand. what matters here is whether one is dealing with a syntax, as opposed to an ordinary procedure. whether the syntax is primitive or defined (i.e. a macro) usually doesn't matter as much) 2016-02-02T00:41:10Z f-a: ok 2016-02-02T00:41:34Z Administrator joined #scheme 2016-02-02T00:41:46Z Administrator is now known as Guest71828 2016-02-02T00:44:19Z jcowan joined #scheme 2016-02-02T00:44:40Z magine-pc joined #scheme 2016-02-02T00:45:08Z jcowan: hey ho 2016-02-02T00:45:11Z jcowan: taylan: ping 2016-02-02T00:45:45Z daviid quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-02-02T00:50:54Z grettke joined #scheme 2016-02-02T00:54:29Z lastack99 quit (Quit: uh Yeah, thats on the menu) 2016-02-02T00:56:04Z magine-pc quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2016-02-02T00:57:13Z magine-pc joined #scheme 2016-02-02T01:00:24Z magine-pc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-02-02T01:00:40Z f-a quit (Quit: leaving) 2016-02-02T01:00:52Z magine-pc joined #scheme 2016-02-02T01:02:51Z magine-pc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-02-02T01:02:58Z magine-pc joined #scheme 2016-02-02T01:08:10Z 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the older architecture, bytestructure descriptors had a "type" slot and a type-specific "data" slot. it was very confusing, since bytestructure descriptors themselves are "types" in a sense. 2016-02-02T20:23:06Z taylan: in the new architecture, the data is basically within the closures that are then put directly into the bytestructure descriptor, which shaves off one layer of complexity and brings things back to sanity, but that means introspection is practically impossible. 2016-02-02T20:23:46Z taylan: so ideally, "vector descriptor", "struct descriptor", etc. would be subtypes of "bytestructure descriptor" 2016-02-02T20:26:21Z magine-pc joined #scheme 2016-02-02T20:26:39Z jcowan: Indeed. Although I found I didn't need it when doing sets and bags, which are twins; the record type is "sob" (set or bag), and contains a boolean flag to say whether it's a set or a bag 2016-02-02T20:27:12Z wingo_ is now known as wingo 2016-02-02T20:27:22Z taylan: I guess that works in a lot of cases. I'd like to keep the possible bytestructure types open-ended/extensible though. 2016-02-02T20:27:39Z taylan: extensible without making changes to the library itself that is 2016-02-02T20:27:56Z jcowan: What I really want is a procedural version of ref and set. 2016-02-02T20:28:12Z jcowan: I was quite surprised (though I do see the logic) when I saw they were not procedures 2016-02-02T20:28:57Z taylan: it was a decision to avoid consing rest-argument lists, since it's a library that would conceivably be used in high-performance settings. 2016-02-02T20:29:21Z zadock quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-02-02T20:29:43Z jcowan: Indeed, there wouldn't be much reason to use it otherwise. 2016-02-02T20:29:44Z taylan: that's mostly unnecessary now if one has syntax-case... 2016-02-02T20:29:54Z jcowan: (well, for binary I/O) 2016-02-02T20:31:42Z lambda-11235 joined #scheme 2016-02-02T20:31:43Z lambda-11235 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-02-02T20:32:10Z lambda-11235 joined #scheme 2016-02-02T20:32:10Z lambda-11235 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-02-02T20:32:36Z lambda-11235 joined #scheme 2016-02-02T20:32:37Z lambda-11235 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-02-02T20:33:08Z lambda-11235 joined #scheme 2016-02-02T20:38:35Z davexuni` joined #scheme 2016-02-02T20:39:01Z davexuni` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-02-02T20:39:30Z davexunit quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 24.5.1)) 2016-02-02T20:39:50Z taylan: jcowan: done reading your bytestructures mail. thanks for the feedback. will hopefully address the points soonish; not sure when I'll next be working on bytestructures again. 2016-02-02T20:40:28Z mastokley joined #scheme 2016-02-02T20:40:47Z khisanth_ is now known as Khisanth 2016-02-02T20:46:11Z AlexDenisov quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2016-02-02T20:46:59Z magine-pc quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2016-02-02T20:48:56Z magine-pc joined #scheme 2016-02-02T20:50:03Z stamourv_ is now known as stamourv 2016-02-02T20:50:03Z stamourv quit (Changing host) 2016-02-02T20:50:03Z stamourv joined #scheme 2016-02-02T20:54:02Z AlexDenisov joined #scheme 2016-02-02T20:56:28Z magine-pc quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-02-02T20:56:34Z AlexDenisov quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-02-02T20:57:04Z AlexDenisov joined #scheme 2016-02-02T20:59:28Z lambda-11235 quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.4) 2016-02-02T20:59:30Z davexunit joined #scheme 2016-02-02T20:59:37Z magine-pc joined #scheme 2016-02-02T21:03:00Z oleo_ joined #scheme 2016-02-02T21:03:07Z AlexDenisov quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-02-02T21:03:34Z ASau joined #scheme 2016-02-02T21:04:16Z blackwolf joined #scheme 2016-02-02T21:05:40Z gravicappa quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2016-02-02T21:06:14Z oleo quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-02-02T21:08:12Z civodul quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 24.5.1)) 2016-02-02T21:10:28Z jcowan quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2016-02-02T21:11:52Z leot quit (Quit: BBL) 2016-02-02T21:20:04Z spooq quit (Quit: KVIrc 4.2.0 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/) 2016-02-02T21:21:17Z nzambe quit (Quit: http://www.kiwiirc.com/ - A hand crafted IRC client) 2016-02-02T21:21:49Z nzambe joined #scheme 2016-02-02T21:22:00Z _sjs quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2016-02-02T21:23:11Z AlexDenisov joined #scheme 2016-02-02T21:28:50Z AlexDenisov quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. 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Just a pathological curiosity regarding why the letter Lambda was chosen by Alonzo Church -- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SphBW9ILVPU#t=9m40s (or at minute 9, second 40)... Unfortunately I'm not a native english speaker and don't get the joke. Anyone know why and/or understand what Alonzo Church wrote in the postcard discussed in the ``Lambda Calculus Then and Now'' talk? 2016-02-03T19:01:29Z Mokuso quit (Quit: EOF) 2016-02-03T19:06:28Z karswell` joined #scheme 2016-02-03T19:06:34Z quinoa quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-02-03T19:07:19Z karswell quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-02-03T19:09:10Z bb010g joined #scheme 2016-02-03T19:10:01Z w3pm joined #scheme 2016-02-03T19:13:00Z pjb: leot: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eeny,_meeny,_miny,_moe 2016-02-03T19:13:06Z lambda-11235: leot: Basically he picked it at random. 2016-02-03T19:14:11Z pjb: meaning that he just chose the next free letter, after kapa: αβγδεζηθικλ 2016-02-03T19:14:12Z leot: pjb, lambda-11235: wow! Didn't know that, thanks a lot! 2016-02-03T19:14:32Z gravicappa joined #scheme 2016-02-03T19:15:15Z quinoa joined #scheme 2016-02-03T19:15:29Z pjb: leot: see also: http://www.wisdomandwonder.com/link/3022/why-church-chose-lambda 2016-02-03T19:17:03Z pierpa: hmmmm 2016-02-03T19:17:15Z pierpa: I knew that lambda was chosen by the typographer? 2016-02-03T19:17:35Z amgarching quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2016-02-03T19:17:35Z pierpa: because he didn't had the c-hat character 2016-02-03T19:17:41Z pjb: So basically he wanted to write: x̂ but with a type writer he had to write ^x, and when recopying it by hand, it became λx. 2016-02-03T19:20:18Z amgarching joined #scheme 2016-02-03T19:21:13Z daviid joined #scheme 2016-02-03T19:44:38Z karswell` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-02-03T19:47:22Z neoncontrails quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-02-03T19:50:21Z quinoa quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-02-03T19:54:23Z nilg joined #scheme 2016-02-03T19:57:35Z quinoa joined #scheme 2016-02-03T20:09:11Z ecraven quit (Quit: bye) 2016-02-03T20:14:51Z ASau joined #scheme 2016-02-03T20:20:29Z neoncontrails joined #scheme 2016-02-03T20:24:55Z saul joined #scheme 2016-02-03T20:29:27Z w3pm quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-02-03T20:32:10Z bjz joined #scheme 2016-02-03T20:32:16Z bjz quit (Client Quit) 2016-02-03T20:32:31Z fantazo joined #scheme 2016-02-03T20:32:42Z bjz joined #scheme 2016-02-03T20:35:55Z niklasl quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-02-03T20:36:08Z niklasl joined #scheme 2016-02-03T20:41:54Z civodul quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-02-03T20:42:10Z lambda-11235 quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.4) 2016-02-03T20:42:40Z civodul joined #scheme 2016-02-03T20:42:43Z lambda-11235 joined #scheme 2016-02-03T20:43:16Z gravicappa quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-02-03T20:47:25Z quinoa quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-02-03T20:48:38Z ecraven joined #scheme 2016-02-03T20:49:04Z eni quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-02-03T20:50:17Z quinoa joined #scheme 2016-02-03T21:06:48Z AlexDeni_ quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. 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Erlang supports syntax to describe how binary data is encoded and decoded 2016-02-06T11:02:33Z ecraven: http://learnyousomeerlang.com/starting-out-for-real under Bit Syntax, for example 2016-02-06T11:02:44Z gravicappa joined #scheme 2016-02-06T11:05:14Z wasamasa: well, I've used the bitstring egg to destructure binary data in CHICKEN 2016-02-06T11:05:26Z ecraven: for example for TCP: <> = SomeBinary. 2016-02-06T11:05:28Z wasamasa: it's supposed to have support for the inverse operation as well 2016-02-06T11:05:34Z ecraven: wasamasa: thanks, I'll look at that! 2016-02-06T11:06:07Z wasamasa: emacs has the bindat package with comparable syntax (but a few interesting features more) 2016-02-06T11:06:28Z wasamasa: I haven't tested that one yet, maybe I will when I evaluate the emacs-ffi module 2016-02-06T11:06:50Z wasamasa: pretty sure other lisps have comparable libraries 2016-02-06T11:07:14Z alezost quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-02-06T11:08:19Z ecraven: thanks, bindat looks interesting! 2016-02-06T11:08:55Z wasamasa: ah, I've found one for racket, but it's using format strings instead of s-expressions 2016-02-06T11:09:16Z wasamasa: http://planet.racket-lang.org/package-source/williams/packed-binary.plt/1/1/planet-docs/packed-binary/index.html 2016-02-06T11:09:16Z rudybot: http://teensy.info/VWUDkVTJnt 2016-02-06T11:27:34Z mbuf quit (Quit: Ex-Chat) 2016-02-06T11:34:19Z tos-1 joined #scheme 2016-02-06T11:47:10Z Mokuso joined #scheme 2016-02-06T11:48:17Z alezost joined #scheme 2016-02-06T12:01:06Z drot joined #scheme 2016-02-06T12:05:45Z fu7mu4 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-02-06T12:17:30Z ggole joined #scheme 2016-02-06T12:24:01Z micmus quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-02-06T12:41:03Z zadock joined #scheme 2016-02-06T12:51:51Z kuribas joined #scheme 2016-02-06T12:52:04Z kuribas quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-02-06T12:52:06Z kuribas` joined #scheme 2016-02-06T12:52:24Z zadock quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-02-06T13:18:33Z pierpa joined #scheme 2016-02-06T13:19:39Z Mokuso quit (Quit: EOF) 2016-02-06T13:19:52Z Mokuso joined #scheme 2016-02-06T13:21:38Z grettke joined #scheme 2016-02-06T13:22:11Z grettke quit (Client Quit) 2016-02-06T13:32:37Z turtleman joined #scheme 2016-02-06T13:33:31Z nocd joined #scheme 2016-02-06T13:35:46Z mmos joined #scheme 2016-02-06T13:40:08Z mmos quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-02-06T13:42:51Z karswell` joined #scheme 2016-02-06T13:48:27Z pierpa quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-02-06T14:03:39Z alezost quit (Quit: I live in GuixSD and Emacs ) 2016-02-06T14:23:52Z magine-pc joined #scheme 2016-02-06T14:25:20Z mmos joined #scheme 2016-02-06T14:31:16Z grettke joined #scheme 2016-02-06T14:33:20Z grettke quit (Client Quit) 2016-02-06T14:57:59Z O7 joined #scheme 2016-02-06T15:06:49Z Riastradh joined #scheme 2016-02-06T15:11:43Z tskim joined #scheme 2016-02-06T15:12:12Z Mokuso quit (Quit: EOF) 2016-02-06T15:15:15Z tskim: I'm wanting to work through SICP. I'm using the test-manager unit testing framework. I was planning on using the following dir structure: exercises/ch01/main/1.scm & exercises/ch01/test/1.scm. Does this seem reasonable or are there more idiomatic ways to do this in scheme? 2016-02-06T15:17:01Z tskim: Additionally, when loading test-manager: (load "test-manager/load.scm"), I'm getting a lot of loading debug output. Is there a way to disable this? 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sizeable program that is, that solve a real problem (tm) 2016-02-07T16:17:40Z amz3: there is http://forestdb.org/ but well it's too abstract for me 2016-02-07T16:17:54Z spew quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-02-07T16:18:12Z spew joined #scheme 2016-02-07T16:35:06Z acarrico quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-02-07T16:37:37Z artbv joined #scheme 2016-02-07T16:44:45Z drot joined #scheme 2016-02-07T16:49:13Z acarrico joined #scheme 2016-02-07T16:49:40Z nalaginrut quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2016-02-07T16:51:49Z annodomini quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-02-07T16:52:31Z annodomini joined #scheme 2016-02-07T16:52:31Z annodomini quit (Changing host) 2016-02-07T16:52:31Z annodomini joined #scheme 2016-02-07T16:56:12Z Riastradh joined #scheme 2016-02-07T17:12:38Z groovy2shoes joined #scheme 2016-02-07T17:23:47Z drot quit (Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 25.0.90.1) 2016-02-07T17:28:50Z kodnin quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2016-02-07T17:33:13Z drot joined 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I've got the hygiene down, it's the pattern language that's tripping me up 2016-02-09T00:23:48Z adu: groovy2shoes: pastebin it 2016-02-09T00:23:49Z groovy2shoes: can't do recursion or even ellipsis :( 2016-02-09T00:23:55Z adu: ellipsis is easy 2016-02-09T00:24:10Z groovy2shoes: https://github.com/baguette/tiny7/blob/master/syntax-rules.scm 2016-02-09T00:24:39Z adu: ah define-syntax syntax-rules 2016-02-09T00:25:03Z adu: I would look at psyntax 2016-02-09T00:25:22Z groovy2shoes: define-syntax in this implementation expects 3 arguments: the input form, the expansion environment, and the definition environment 2016-02-09T00:25:41Z groovy2shoes: I've got an explicit-renaming transformer that works well on top of that 2016-02-09T00:27:34Z adu: This is how I did it 2016-02-09T00:27:36Z adu: https://github.com/andydude/droscheme/blob/master/types.go#L1246 2016-02-09T00:27:49Z adu: but theres a lib that's called "psyntax" I can't find it anymore 2016-02-09T00:28:51Z adu: but I was only able to do 2-3 levels of ellipsis 2016-02-09T00:29:02Z adu: I couldn't figure out how to do N levels of ellipsis 2016-02-09T00:29:06Z groovy2shoes: I've got a copy of psyntax 2016-02-09T00:29:12Z groovy2shoes: I'm not really interested in syntax-case 2016-02-09T00:29:29Z groovy2shoes: not that it isn't neat, I'm just trying to keep this implementation small 2016-02-09T00:29:39Z adu: right, I understand 2016-02-09T00:30:31Z adu: do they cover syntax-rules in sicp? 2016-02-09T00:31:25Z groovy2shoes: no 2016-02-09T00:31:36Z groovy2shoes: they stuck with IEEE in SICP, so no macros 2016-02-09T00:32:12Z adu: did you look at my implementation? 2016-02-09T00:32:33Z groovy2shoes: not yet 2016-02-09T00:32:43Z groovy2shoes: getting a bug fix checked in at work real quick then I'll have a look :) 2016-02-09T00:33:40Z adu: are you an arc disciple? 2016-02-09T00:34:06Z groovy2shoes: not really 2016-02-09T00:34:12Z adu: groovy2shoes: can I fork your GH repo? 2016-02-09T00:34:18Z groovy2shoes: I'm a little familiar with it 2016-02-09T00:34:22Z groovy2shoes: you can if you want 2016-02-09T00:34:32Z groovy2shoes: it's not nearly R7RS compliant yet, but that's the goal 2016-02-09T00:34:35Z adu: then we can collaborate and stuff :) 2016-02-09T00:34:41Z adu: I like R7RS-small 2016-02-09T00:34:48Z groovy2shoes: me too 2016-02-09T00:35:22Z adu: also, my name is in the report :) 2016-02-09T00:35:36Z groovy2shoes: cool 2016-02-09T00:35:51Z groovy2shoes: I think I sent a total of one message to the mailing list while it was under development 2016-02-09T00:35:56Z groovy2shoes: maybe 2 2016-02-09T00:36:28Z adu: I think I fixed like 6 typos 2016-02-09T00:36:37Z groovy2shoes: heheheh 2016-02-09T00:36:50Z adu: and 4 of them were missing parenthesis 2016-02-09T00:36:59Z adu: jk 2016-02-09T00:38:19Z groovy2shoes: speaking of missing parens, I really need to improve the error handling of tiny7 2016-02-09T00:38:35Z groovy2shoes: I've wasted hours hunting down a misplaced paren :S 2016-02-09T00:39:36Z groovy2shoes: it's still under 10K memory use at startup, though, so that's nice B) 2016-02-09T00:39:48Z groovy2shoes: I can't take all the credit; it's a fork of TinyScheme 2016-02-09T00:40:08Z adu: groovy2shoes: one of things that really helped with my new implementation was i2s, a tiny script that preprocessed srfi-110 scheme to regular scheme 2016-02-09T00:40:27Z groovy2shoes: hmm, I'll check that out 2016-02-09T00:40:40Z adu: i2s should be in droscheme somewhere, just a sec 2016-02-09T00:40:45Z jcowan joined #scheme 2016-02-09T00:41:33Z adu: https://github.com/andydude/droscheme/blob/andrew-working/scm/i2s-guile.scm 2016-02-09T00:41:33Z rudybot: http://teensy.info/eGLUWKRbLT 2016-02-09T00:41:51Z adu: groovy2shoes: I told you it was tiny 2016-02-09T00:42:14Z adu: it's a REPL without the E and the L 2016-02-09T00:44:49Z adu: groovy2shoes: what I'm trying to say, you can write your code in srfi-110 scheme, or something, then preprocess it so your core only has to understand S-expr 2016-02-09T00:45:23Z jcowan: I think that's the standard thing to do 2016-02-09T00:45:45Z jcowan: of course by the same token you could process Python into s-exprs and then have a core that understands that. 2016-02-09T00:46:10Z adu: jcowan: writing tiny i2s scripts? 2016-02-09T00:46:42Z adu: jcowan: thats a good idea 2016-02-09T00:49:39Z badkins joined #scheme 2016-02-09T00:55:39Z jcowan: I wrote out an s-expr representation of JavaScript: The Good Parts once, and planned to write a toy interpreter in Scheme for it 2016-02-09T00:56:00Z jcowan: it got back-burnered, though 2016-02-09T00:56:18Z adu: jcowan: I wrote an sexpr for go 2016-02-09T00:56:30Z jcowan: Sounds useful 2016-02-09T00:56:40Z adu: jcowan: we should compile a list 2016-02-09T00:56:48Z jcowan: I think Go is one of the languages foof plans to support in Chibi eventually 2016-02-09T00:56:49Z adu: javascript2s 2016-02-09T00:56:51Z adu: python2s 2016-02-09T00:56:54Z adu: go2s 2016-02-09T00:57:25Z jcowan: Guile doesn't actually have a translator from Elisp to Scheme, but it provides Elisp as a bag on the side 2016-02-09T00:57:41Z adu: a bag?!? 2016-02-09T00:57:44Z adu: I hate bags 2016-02-09T00:57:51Z jcowan chuckles 2016-02-09T00:58:02Z adu: you know what's even worse? 2016-02-09T00:58:10Z jcowan: http://www.catb.org/jargon/html/B/bag-on-the-side.html 2016-02-09T00:58:24Z jcowan: What? 2016-02-09T00:58:30Z jcowan: (oh, also bash2s) 2016-02-09T00:58:56Z adu: https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Colostomy_bag aka "cobag" 2016-02-09T00:59:21Z jcowan: My mother had one for the last 2 years of her life 2016-02-09T00:59:23Z sethalves quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-02-09T00:59:25Z jcowan: Coulda been worse 2016-02-09T00:59:37Z adu: would bash2s have to be compatible with scsh? 2016-02-09T00:59:46Z jcowan: Interesting idea 2016-02-09T01:00:12Z jcowan: Another plan I had, not related to Scheme, was to write a shell as a top-end to Lua, a kind of analogue of scsh but not as foreign to most programmers 2016-02-09T01:00:15Z adu: I think haskell already has "liskell" which is kind of a "haskell2s" 2016-02-09T01:00:20Z jcowan nods 2016-02-09T01:00:27Z adu: actually liskell would be s2haskell 2016-02-09T01:00:32Z jcowan: Also LFE (Lisp Flavored Erlang) 2016-02-09T01:01:33Z adu: I've been trying to turn HTTP into a kind of sexpr thing 2016-02-09T01:04:01Z adu: jcowan: I wonder if my javascript2xml thing is compatible with your javascript2s 2016-02-09T01:04:17Z jcowan: eek, gak 2016-02-09T01:04:29Z jcowan: I like XML for documents, but not so much for programming languages 2016-02-09T01:04:34Z jcowan: bletch 2016-02-09T01:04:41Z adu: like if I do javascript2xml | xml2sxml 2016-02-09T01:04:50Z adu: if it would be similar to your javascript2s 2016-02-09T01:05:05Z jcowan: Ah, I see 2016-02-09T01:05:17Z jcowan: You have docs somewhere? 2016-02-09T01:05:41Z adu: https://github.com/andydude/droxtools/tree/master/js2drox 2016-02-09T01:06:24Z adu: I think I got it working with Narcissus (library) and Rhino (interpreter) 2016-02-09T01:06:33Z pierpa` is now known as pierpa 2016-02-09T01:06:45Z hiroaki quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-02-09T01:08:44Z adu: jcowan: "drox" is just a fancy name for MathML plus statements 2016-02-09T01:10:23Z adu: and semantically, MathML is just scheme minus syntax rules 2016-02-09T01:11:33Z jcowan chuckles 2016-02-09T01:12:30Z cmatei quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-02-09T01:13:44Z jcowan: So what are AcornRead and NarcissusRead? 2016-02-09T01:13:53Z cmatei joined #scheme 2016-02-09T01:14:17Z adu: AcornRead is the entire translator, written with the Acord javascript parser 2016-02-09T01:14:37Z adu: NarcissusRead is the entire translator, written with the Narcissus javascript parser 2016-02-09T01:15:17Z adu: I included Narcissus in there somewhere, I don't remember if I included acorn 2016-02-09T01:17:20Z grettke joined #scheme 2016-02-09T01:20:37Z renopt_ is now known as renopt 2016-02-09T01:20:53Z renopt quit (Changing host) 2016-02-09T01:20:53Z renopt joined #scheme 2016-02-09T01:21:42Z adu: jcowan: emitApp is equivalent to ( and emitAppEnd is equivalent to ) 2016-02-09T01:23:24Z adu: jcowan: https://github.com/andydude/droxtools/blob/master/js2drox/js2drox is the main entry point 2016-02-09T01:24:06Z jcowan: Thanks 2016-02-09T01:28:26Z grettke quit (Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com) 2016-02-09T01:28:57Z adu: jcowan: "MathML is just scheme minus syntax rules" whats funny about that? 2016-02-09T01:28:57Z grettke joined #scheme 2016-02-09T01:28:59Z _sjs quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2016-02-09T01:29:25Z jcowan: Not funny-haha, just an interesting way of looking at things 2016-02-09T01:30:38Z adu: ok, I can see that, but to be more specific, I was talking about Content MathML 2016-02-09T01:31:02Z adu: Presentation MathML is a cluster-f**k 2016-02-09T01:31:56Z adu: even more specific: Strict Content MathML 3.0 2016-02-09T01:33:06Z adu: which is composed of strings, bytebectors, numbers, lambdas, applications, errors, and "attributions" 2016-02-09T01:33:31Z adu: bytevectors* I can totally type... 2016-02-09T01:36:04Z adu: omg, I just tought of the solution... strictcontentmathml2s 2016-02-09T01:38:23Z adjivas joined #scheme 2016-02-09T01:41:27Z grettke quit (Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com) 2016-02-09T01:42:02Z grettke joined #scheme 2016-02-09T01:42:04Z lambda-11235 joined #scheme 2016-02-09T01:42:24Z adu: jcowan: I see a problem with python2s, keyword arguments are a bitch, how did you represent object literals in javascript2s? 2016-02-09T01:43:01Z jcowan: (object . some a-list) 2016-02-09T01:43:13Z jcowan: (object (x . 32) (y . 34)) 2016-02-09T01:44:33Z adu: jcowan: but that's incompatible with guile/racket #:x 32 #:y 34 ? 2016-02-09T01:45:14Z groovy2shoes: well guile/racket are incompatible with standard scheme :p 2016-02-09T01:45:35Z adu: groovy2shoes: what is the standard scheme way of specifying keyword arguments? 2016-02-09T01:45:41Z jcowan: adu: There is none 2016-02-09T01:45:52Z adu: ack 2016-02-09T01:46:02Z jcowan: some Schemes like :foo, others foo:, others #:foo, and others have no support for them 2016-02-09T01:46:05Z grettke quit (Client Quit) 2016-02-09T01:46:23Z groovy2shoes: keyword arguments are for wussies anyway :p 2016-02-09T01:46:34Z grettke joined #scheme 2016-02-09T01:46:38Z groovy2shoes: adu, I fixed my expander :) 2016-02-09T01:46:42Z spew joined #scheme 2016-02-09T01:47:09Z groovy2shoes: problem was I was using `rename` when I should've been using `eq?` 2016-02-09T01:47:17Z adu: groovy2shoes: YEY 2016-02-09T01:47:48Z adu: so SRFI seems to standardize on foo:, and guile/racket seem to have standardized on #:foo 2016-02-09T01:47:56Z groovy2shoes: err... s/`rename`/`compare`/ 2016-02-09T01:48:25Z adu: in my mind, keyword arguments are mandatory 2016-02-09T01:48:35Z groovy2shoes: why's that? 2016-02-09T01:48:57Z adu: groovy2shoes: my "use case" is having a target language to compile everything to 2016-02-09T01:49:14Z jcowan: Well, you can implement keywords in pure R5RS, actually 2016-02-09T01:49:22Z jcowan: provided you are willing to export them from modules 2016-02-09T01:49:27Z groovy2shoes: or, you can compile using a canonical ordering of the keywords 2016-02-09T01:49:44Z groovy2shoes: good ol' UNCOL 2016-02-09T01:49:46Z adu: groovy2shoes: I can do that without fancy literals, like regexes, but I can't do that without a reliable representation of keyword arguments 2016-02-09T01:49:53Z groovy2shoes: I wish it were scheme, turned out to be javascript :'( 2016-02-09T01:50:16Z jcowan: http://trac.sacrideo.us/wg/wiki/KeywordSyntax <-- summary of what Schemes accept what 2016-02-09T01:50:20Z turtleman joined #scheme 2016-02-09T01:51:08Z jcowan: http://trac.sacrideo.us/wg/wiki/KeywordArgumentsArcfide <-- portable implementation 2016-02-09T01:54:01Z bb010g joined #scheme 2016-02-09T01:54:29Z sethalves joined #scheme 2016-02-09T02:02:35Z stepnem quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2016-02-09T02:07:07Z quinoa quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-02-09T02:07:16Z adu: jcowan: R5RS doesn't have modules 2016-02-09T02:08:03Z groovy2shoes: there's a portable implementation of those, too 2016-02-09T02:08:06Z jcowan: Well, sure. But you can use the above implementation to create keyword functions in R6RS or R7RS, you just have to make sure that the same keyword isn't exported from more than one place 2016-02-09T02:08:36Z jcowan: i.e. foo: (or whatever you like) is an identifier bound to a keyword object, and keyword objects are equal iff they have the same internal names. 2016-02-09T02:08:57Z adu: is S7 an impl or a reference to R7RS? 2016-02-09T02:09:00Z jcowan: But because it's an identifier and not a magic hygiene-free object, you have to make sure it's exported properly. 2016-02-09T02:09:10Z jcowan: s/exported from more than one place/imported from more than one place 2016-02-09T02:13:06Z adu: Chickedn, Bigloo, Guile, STklos, and S7 seem to understand all 3 options 2016-02-09T02:13:32Z adu: Racket/PLT seems to be the supid one 2016-02-09T02:13:54Z adu: but isn't #: implementable as a reader macro? 2016-02-09T02:14:59Z hyuke joined #scheme 2016-02-09T02:17:11Z adu: jcowan: I guess my issue is that (object (x . 32) (y . 34)) is too obvious 2016-02-09T02:17:13Z groovy2shoes: reader macros aren't standard 2016-02-09T02:17:42Z adu: but it does satisfy the principle of least surprise 2016-02-09T02:17:48Z jcowan nods 2016-02-09T02:18:08Z adu: *sigh* 2016-02-09T02:18:18Z adu: scheme wins, adu looses 2016-02-09T02:19:04Z jcowan: Lexical syntax is the hardest thing to add new stuff to, for two reasons, one technical, one psychological 2016-02-09T02:19:25Z jcowan: Psychologically, people tend to see new lexical syntax as "ugly" and viscerally reject it. 2016-02-09T02:19:37Z jcowan: Technically, readers are often not written to make them easily extensible. 2016-02-09T02:19:48Z adu: damn you http://c2.com/cgi/wiki?PrincipleOfLeastAstonishment 2016-02-09T02:20:30Z jcowan: I hope to standardize SRFI 108 as part of R7RS-large, but it has to overcome both those barriers 2016-02-09T02:20:40Z jcowan: plus it is only half-assed lexical syntax (works in programs but not in data) 2016-02-09T02:20:46Z jcowan: I do have an idea for dealing with that, though 2016-02-09T02:22:09Z adu: jcowan: I think R7RS-large should also make a community-based descision about keyword arguments 2016-02-09T02:22:48Z adu: hopefully alienating as few people as possible 2016-02-09T02:22:51Z groovy2shoes: R7RS-large should also standardize SRFI-72 2016-02-09T02:23:39Z adu: groovy2shoes: isn't that already part of R6RS? 2016-02-09T02:23:51Z groovy2shoes: ...yes 2016-02-09T02:24:01Z adu: groovy2shoes: or are you an anti-6-er? 2016-02-09T02:24:10Z groovy2shoes: it's nice having a more powerful macro system in the standard 2016-02-09T02:25:05Z adu: some ppl like the macros, some people like the keyword arguments 2016-02-09T02:25:23Z groovy2shoes: why not both? 2016-02-09T02:25:31Z groovy2shoes: it's large for a reason, right? 2016-02-09T02:25:35Z adu: groovy2shoes: yes! the more the merryer 2016-02-09T02:26:45Z adu: I know everything can be implemented in terms of Peano numerals, but I need stuff, I have a job 2016-02-09T02:27:11Z groovy2shoes: do you get to write scheme at your job? 2016-02-09T02:27:41Z adu: groovy2shoes: no, my job requires that everything is written in Python 2016-02-09T02:28:00Z groovy2shoes: I have to deal with some Python at work, as well, but mostly C++ 2016-02-09T02:28:13Z groovy2shoes: smatterings of Perl and Tcl here and there 2016-02-09T02:28:41Z adu: if there was a (def-class) in scheme, then I could probably write everything in scheme 2016-02-09T02:29:08Z groovy2shoes: Gauche, STKlos, and Guile all have CLOS-style OO systems 2016-02-09T02:29:18Z groovy2shoes: I haven't used them for anything serious, but they seem pretty neat 2016-02-09T02:29:27Z quinoa joined #scheme 2016-02-09T02:29:27Z groovy2shoes: also, def-class is trivial to implement in scheme 2016-02-09T02:29:36Z adu: groovy2shoes: portably? 2016-02-09T02:29:42Z groovy2shoes: mmhm 2016-02-09T02:29:47Z adu: lololol 2016-02-09T02:30:23Z groovy2shoes: efficiently is another question, though ;) 2016-02-09T02:30:47Z adu: I personally don't care about efficiency, and neither does my boss 2016-02-09T02:30:58Z groovy2shoes: well, I'm sure there's a limit 2016-02-09T02:30:59Z adu: since most of my job involves HTTP I/O 2016-02-09T02:31:24Z adu: so most of my tasks involve trying to obtain the correct HTTP response 2016-02-09T02:37:11Z nckx joined #scheme 2016-02-09T02:38:05Z nckx is now known as nckx|offline 2016-02-09T02:47:56Z lambda-11235 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-02-09T02:49:13Z lambda-11235 joined #scheme 2016-02-09T02:53:28Z adu quit (Quit: adu) 2016-02-09T02:54:06Z grettke quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. 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that would give some semblance to "usual" lisp-like syntax 2016-02-09T09:03:44Z eli: One of the major things I argue about is having a reader that plants new things in the input -- just like those `$...$`s -- and I don't argue against them blindly, I did that after having something very similar as a first iteration. 2016-02-09T09:04:39Z ecraven: eli: well, there are legitimate reasons for wanting an (portably) extensible reader, right? simple date literals (an oxymoron, but still), for example 2016-02-09T09:05:05Z eli: The scribble reader (not the rest of the documentation system, which "scribble" now refers to more commonly) is a very straightforward in contrast -- by just being a very minimal tool, one that is just an alternative to writing s-exprs, the result becomes much more powerful. 2016-02-09T09:05:14Z stepnem joined #scheme 2016-02-09T09:06:07Z eli: So reviving the pile of hacks approach -- when there is work (that actually get used thoroughly) that does it with a much smaller and more uniform extension, is just bad. 2016-02-09T09:06:55Z eli: ecraven: Absolutely. There are most definitely points for keeping an extensible syntax. 2016-02-09T09:07:14Z mbuf joined #scheme 2016-02-09T09:07:39Z eli: In fact, the scribble syntax implementation uses just that: it's implemented as a readtable extension which makes it play nicely with sexprs and with other readtable-based extensions. 2016-02-09T09:08:30Z ecraven: that supposes your scheme has a readtable and proper reader macros :) 2016-02-09T09:08:41Z eli: ecraven: And BTW, one result of having the @-form reader be super simple is that it makes a nice way to have a cheap syntax extension, somewhere between plain s-exprs and a new reader syntax. 2016-02-09T09:09:54Z eli: You'd do something like a `date` macro that parses a string literal input, and then you could use @date{some date}. And if that becomes useful enough you continue with some #date or whatever makes it easy to implement as a more builtin-ish way. 2016-02-09T09:10:12Z stepnem quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2016-02-09T09:10:39Z eli: Re readtable and reader macros: sure, and I used them because I did it in Racket; but even in a language without reader macros at all the same principles apply. 2016-02-09T09:10:57Z eli: The only difference is that composing languages becomes harder if you don't have readtables. 2016-02-09T09:11:32Z kraehe: eli, more common syntactical sugar - but what does sugar do you? 2016-02-09T09:11:35Z eli: At some point I'll probably write something similar to the scribble syntax in JS, and that would obviously look different, and will be implemented in a very different way than readtable. 2016-02-09T09:11:53Z eli: kraehe: I don't follow that question. 2016-02-09T09:12:59Z dpk joined #scheme 2016-02-09T09:13:40Z kraehe: one thing I enjoy on Scheme and Smalltalk is their minimal set of obscure glyphs with special meanings - Perl is the opposite here 2016-02-09T09:15:45Z stepnem joined #scheme 2016-02-09T09:15:51Z sz0 joined #scheme 2016-02-09T09:16:12Z eli: kraehe: Well, sexprs are really good in keeping that to a minimum, and instead letting users define their own magical glyphs. (And with unicode that actually becomes fun, of course.) 2016-02-09T09:16:56Z eli: The scribble reader, being very minimal, achieves the same thing -- just more geared towards forms that deal with a lot of text *like* a documentation system (but by no means limited to that). 2016-02-09T09:17:14Z sz0_ joined #scheme 2016-02-09T09:21:50Z leot quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-02-09T09:23:26Z leot joined #scheme 2016-02-09T09:23:38Z leot quit (Changing host) 2016-02-09T09:23:38Z leot joined #scheme 2016-02-09T09:25:23Z gravicappa joined #scheme 2016-02-09T09:30:03Z drot joined #scheme 2016-02-09T09:51:10Z neoncontrails joined #scheme 2016-02-09T09:55:55Z neoncontrails quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-02-09T09:57:39Z daviid joined #scheme 2016-02-09T10:06:13Z _sjs joined #scheme 2016-02-09T10:10:46Z _sjs quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-02-09T10:29:26Z nalaginrut quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-02-09T10:42:38Z jrapdx joined #scheme 2016-02-09T11:16:25Z Mokuso quit (Quit: brb) 2016-02-09T11:21:50Z tumdum quit (Quit: ZNC - http://znc.in) 2016-02-09T11:22:40Z Mokuso joined #scheme 2016-02-09T11:26:14Z quinoa quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-02-09T11:28:48Z sz0 quit (Quit: Bye.) 2016-02-09T11:29:10Z sz0_ is now known as sz0 2016-02-09T11:35:23Z Kruppe quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2016-02-09T11:43:39Z Kruppe joined #scheme 2016-02-09T11:48:24Z Kruppe quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2016-02-09T11:52:22Z neoncontrails joined #scheme 2016-02-09T11:53:53Z micmus joined #scheme 2016-02-09T11:56:54Z neoncontrails quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2016-02-09T12:11:08Z adu joined #scheme 2016-02-09T12:15:26Z adu quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-02-09T12:30:49Z badkins joined #scheme 2016-02-09T12:31:32Z mbuf quit (Quit: Ex-Chat) 2016-02-09T12:34:37Z turtleman joined #scheme 2016-02-09T12:39:19Z _sjs joined #scheme 2016-02-09T12:42:02Z ecraven: how do you write zero? with only arithmetic operators? no comparisons? 2016-02-09T12:42:37Z ecraven: arithmetic includes max, min, floor, ceil here :) 2016-02-09T12:43:41Z _sjs quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2016-02-09T12:44:37Z nilg` joined #scheme 2016-02-09T12:47:11Z jcowan: ecraven: Coerce the argument to an exact number, then attempt to divide 1 by it, using a guard to trap the divide-by-zero exception and returning #t, else returning #f. 2016-02-09T12:49:13Z ecraven: jcowan: hm.. not a bad idea :) 2016-02-09T12:50:37Z jcowan: It's easy to show that it can't be solved with pure arithmetic operations other than compares, because there is no way to generate #f with them. In an extended Scheme in which 0 is falsy, say, it's easy to do. 2016-02-09T12:50:49Z neoncontrails joined #scheme 2016-02-09T12:55:30Z neoncontrails quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-02-09T12:56:15Z ecraven: ah, sorry, I was assuming that :-/ 2016-02-09T12:56:50Z spew joined #scheme 2016-02-09T13:06:06Z mbuf joined #scheme 2016-02-09T13:06:15Z foof`` is now known as foof 2016-02-09T13:07:27Z nee` quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-02-09T13:07:43Z nee` joined #scheme 2016-02-09T13:11:42Z adu joined #scheme 2016-02-09T13:16:44Z adu quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-02-09T13:17:34Z adu joined #scheme 2016-02-09T13:19:52Z spew quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-02-09T13:28:23Z jcowan quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2016-02-09T13:34:28Z mbuf quit (Quit: Ex-Chat) 2016-02-09T13:40:20Z nowhere_man quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2016-02-09T13:41:42Z jcowan joined #scheme 2016-02-09T13:54:46Z jrapdx quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-02-09T13:58:18Z 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I stick to Scheme :) 2016-02-10T04:01:02Z adu: ah, I try to stick with SICP's "exp" and "env" 2016-02-10T04:01:21Z groovy2shoes: more info about transformer here: https://www.gnu.org/software/mit-scheme/documentation/mit-scheme-ref/Explicit-Renaming.html 2016-02-10T04:01:22Z rudybot: http://teensy.info/7dXYrsPOIT 2016-02-10T04:02:11Z adu: so (transformer) is closer to defmacro than syntax-rules 2016-02-10T04:02:45Z groovy2shoes: yes 2016-02-10T04:03:32Z groovy2shoes: transformer takes a function of (form identifier-rename-function identifier-comparison-function) and returns a function of (form expansion-environment evaluation-environment) 2016-02-10T04:03:44Z groovy2shoes: (the latter suitable for define-syntax) 2016-02-10T04:03:59Z groovy2shoes: my syntax-rules transformer builds on top of transformer 2016-02-10T04:04:35Z groovy2shoes: transformer provides "opt-in" hygiene 2016-02-10T04:04:36Z annodomini joined #scheme 2016-02-10T04:04:46Z groovy2shoes: which is not ideal, but makes defining syntax-rules a little easier 2016-02-10T04:06:20Z adu: groovy2shoes: when I wrote droscheme, I made the calling convention for procedures ((cdr form)), and the calling convention for syntax transformations (form env) 2016-02-10T04:06:21Z cemerick joined #scheme 2016-02-10T04:06:36Z adu: I think that might be the way other schemes do it 2016-02-10T04:06:49Z groovy2shoes: I'm not sure I understand 2016-02-10T04:07:16Z adu: groovy2shoes: i.e., syntax transformers would have access to their own name, which I always found rather silly 2016-02-10T04:07:36Z groovy2shoes: yeah, that's how mine works, too 2016-02-10T04:07:45Z groovy2shoes: the input form is the entire s-expression that triggered the expansion 2016-02-10T04:08:19Z adu: yeah 2016-02-10T04:08:49Z groovy2shoes: you can see if you use define-syntax without a transformer, you get your defmacro-style unhygienic macros: https://github.com/baguette/tiny7/blob/master/init.scm#L47 2016-02-10T04:08:51Z adu: but it could also do crazy stuff to the environment, which is required in some cases, like set! 2016-02-10T04:09:09Z groovy2shoes: what do you mean by that? 2016-02-10T04:09:28Z adu: this is how I implemented set! https://github.com/andydude/droscheme/blob/master/builtin.go#L358 2016-02-10T04:09:50Z adu: by "crazy" I mean "impossible in Haskell" 2016-02-10T04:09:58Z groovy2shoes: heheh 2016-02-10T04:10:40Z groovy2shoes: here's my set!: https://github.com/baguette/tiny7/blob/master/scheme.c#L2960 2016-02-10T04:11:02Z groovy2shoes: I didn't write it, it was already in TinyScheme when I forked ;) 2016-02-10T04:11:14Z adu: it's a fork of tinyscheme? 2016-02-10T04:11:21Z groovy2shoes: mmhm 2016-02-10T04:11:27Z groovy2shoes: updating it to support R7RS 2016-02-10T04:11:34Z adu: if I were to fork a scheme, it would probably be Chibi 2016-02-10T04:11:46Z adu: I wouldn't dare Racket, it's like a monolith 2016-02-10T04:11:47Z groovy2shoes: still under 10K of memory at launch atm... hopefully I can keep it tiny 2016-02-10T04:12:32Z groovy2shoes: why fork chibi? 2016-02-10T04:12:41Z adu: groovy2shoes: so last time I mentioned "the arc philosophy" 2016-02-10T04:12:49Z adu: and you said you were unfamiliar? 2016-02-10T04:12:56Z groovy2shoes: I'm vaguely familiar 2016-02-10T04:13:12Z groovy2shoes: I read the Arc definition, but that was nearly 10 years ago at this point 2016-02-10T04:13:22Z groovy2shoes: never wrote any programs in it 2016-02-10T04:14:05Z adu: http://www.paulgraham.com/core.html 2016-02-10T04:14:45Z adu: " By definition, there is some optimal path from axioms up to a complete language." 2016-02-10T04:14:59Z adu: I think that sentance summarizes the arc philosophy 2016-02-10T04:15:43Z adu: groovy2shoes: the only concrete fact I remember, is that (if) playes the role of (cond) 2016-02-10T04:17:30Z adu: but I've always thought that forth/factor would make a great compiler target language, since you don't need to worry about parentheses or semicolons or anything 2016-02-10T04:17:45Z groovy2shoes: yeah 2016-02-10T04:17:51Z groovy2shoes: that's about all forth is good for, though :p 2016-02-10T04:19:22Z adu: groovy2shoes: are you familiar with the demoscene? 2016-02-10T04:20:08Z groovy2shoes: not really 2016-02-10T04:20:34Z adu: these days, they're hard to discinguish from music videos 2016-02-10T04:21:05Z Shadox quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-02-10T04:21:09Z adu: but that's besides the point, you should write some bindings to opengl and write a demo in your scheme 2016-02-10T04:22:01Z groovy2shoes: I thought demos were all written in assembly 2016-02-10T04:22:16Z groovy2shoes: I guess I'll have to write an assembler in my scheme, too :p 2016-02-10T04:22:43Z adu: groovy2shoes: there are different contests, there's the 64K contest, then there's just the "looks cool" contest 2016-02-10T04:23:18Z adu: the 64K contest entries are usually written in asm 2016-02-10T04:25:56Z adu: groovy2shoes: https://youtu.be/T_U3Zdv8to8 2016-02-10T04:26:59Z jcowan joined #scheme 2016-02-10T04:27:44Z adu: jcowan: is SRFI 108 inspired by Scribble? 2016-02-10T04:28:23Z jcowan: adu: Certainly that's a factor. I had nothing to do with it except a bit of hopefully-constructive criticism 2016-02-10T04:28:36Z adu <3 Scribble 2016-02-10T04:29:19Z adu: I have like 3 scribble post-processors that "configure" the output to fit into website themes, etc. 2016-02-10T04:32:51Z groovy2shoes: scribble is pretty nice 2016-02-10T04:33:12Z mbuf joined #scheme 2016-02-10T04:33:13Z Saeren_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-02-10T04:33:20Z Saeren joined #scheme 2016-02-10T04:35:09Z quinoa quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-02-10T04:48:38Z bb010g joined #scheme 2016-02-10T04:55:11Z neoncontrails quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-02-10T05:04:16Z githogori quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-02-10T05:06:25Z githogori joined #scheme 2016-02-10T05:09:29Z nckx is now known as nckx|offline 2016-02-10T05:15:48Z adu quit (Quit: adu) 2016-02-10T05:23:37Z grettke joined #scheme 2016-02-10T05:25:39Z adu joined #scheme 2016-02-10T05:26:56Z cemerick quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2016-02-10T05:27:05Z badkins quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-02-10T05:29:56Z adu quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2016-02-10T05:30:33Z oleo_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-02-10T05:30:41Z adu joined #scheme 2016-02-10T05:30:42Z adu quit (Client Quit) 2016-02-10T05:35:09Z badkins joined #scheme 2016-02-10T05:39:31Z badkins quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2016-02-10T05:40:26Z nanoz quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-02-10T05:48:06Z annodomini quit (Quit: annodomini) 2016-02-10T05:53:27Z hyuke joined #scheme 2016-02-10T06:00:51Z Riastradh joined #scheme 2016-02-10T06:02:06Z annodomini joined #scheme 2016-02-10T06:08:27Z annodomini quit (Quit: annodomini) 2016-02-10T06:13:08Z hyuke quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-02-10T06:14:40Z neoncontrails joined #scheme 2016-02-10T06:15:43Z annodomini joined #scheme 2016-02-10T06:20:05Z aap_ is now known as aap 2016-02-10T06:25:28Z grettke quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. 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2016-02-10T15:55:34Z MrTrump: I want to write 1% the code and use 1% the disk or normal e commerce 2016-02-10T15:59:11Z Guest52031 quit (Quit: leaving) 2016-02-10T16:01:23Z sid14726 joined #scheme 2016-02-10T16:02:55Z r0kc4t quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-02-10T16:09:24Z kuribas quit (Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)) 2016-02-10T16:10:59Z wasamasa: you must be confusing scheme with common lisp 2016-02-10T16:11:15Z wasamasa: as for expressivity, it's rather 10% 2016-02-10T16:11:33Z wasamasa: and even that depends much on the programmer, the codebase, the problem domain, etc. 2016-02-10T16:14:51Z wasamasa: I'm currently writing a giflib wrapper and despite my best efforts, scheme code using it is about as verbose as the C version using the original library 2016-02-10T16:17:40Z MrTrump: hm 2016-02-10T16:17:49Z MrTrump: siag office around still? 2016-02-10T16:17:56Z MrTrump: glow web framework around still? 2016-02-10T16:18:43Z lambda-11235 joined #scheme 2016-02-10T16:23:22Z wasamasa: one had its last stable release 9 years ago and one of the glow/ragnarok contributors has moved on to https://github.com/NalaGinrut/artanis 2016-02-10T16:25:10Z nalaginrut: MrTrump: ragnarok is obsolete, and Glow is all in Artanis now, http://web-artanis.com/ 2016-02-10T16:25:11Z neoncontrails_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-02-10T16:25:22Z wasamasa: oh shit 2016-02-10T16:25:30Z wasamasa: nalaginrut: didn't know you were here 2016-02-10T16:25:52Z nalaginrut: wasamasa: thanks for mention artanis here ;-) 2016-02-10T16:26:13Z nee` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-02-10T16:27:09Z nalaginrut: well, seems the url you pasted was parsed as my nickname, so I got a mention by xchat 2016-02-10T16:28:20Z MrTrump: :) 2016-02-10T16:28:35Z MrTrump: could you use artanis for e commerce? 2016-02-10T16:28:46Z zadock joined #scheme 2016-02-10T16:28:47Z MrTrump: What sites have you made with it? 2016-02-10T16:29:45Z nalaginrut: MrTrump: I think yes, it contains sessions and DB management, but anyway, it's still beta, so you can't use it in product 2016-02-10T16:29:54Z altphi joined #scheme 2016-02-10T16:30:01Z wasamasa: to be fair, I'd just use rails and some plugin for the ecommerce bits 2016-02-10T16:30:20Z MrTrump: ruby? bleh 2016-02-10T16:30:34Z wasamasa: better than the PHP systems :P 2016-02-10T16:30:38Z nalaginrut: and I just released 0.1.2 few minutes ago 2016-02-10T16:30:43Z MrTrump: wec.cat-v.org this looks interesting, along with gonga, and happstack 2016-02-10T16:31:06Z MrTrump: php heh 2016-02-10T16:31:27Z MrTrump: aidaweb in smalltalk looks cool tooo 2016-02-10T16:31:58Z MrTrump: is there any mysql replacement in pure scheme? 2016-02-10T16:32:07Z MrTrump: like a functional programming kinda database? 2016-02-10T16:32:18Z MrTrump: can you use lists as the database and serialize them every 5min 2016-02-10T16:32:21Z nalaginrut: MrTrump: you want to use it for serious product, right? Then I'm sorry, artanis is still unfinished, so it's not for product at present 2016-02-10T16:32:27Z MrTrump: ro a auto compress disk? 2016-02-10T16:32:35Z MrTrump: ok 2016-02-10T16:32:49Z MrTrump: I want to be come very rich by making cool software. 2016-02-10T16:32:51Z wasamasa: that alone won't do 2016-02-10T16:33:02Z wasamasa: you'll want to use postgres, really 2016-02-10T16:33:04Z MrTrump: werc.cat-v.org seems cool 2016-02-10T16:33:07Z MrTrump: why 2016-02-10T16:33:24Z wasamasa: because it has been battle-tested, has all the features, actually stores your data as it is, etc. 2016-02-10T16:33:33Z MrTrump: postgresql like mysql i think is not as smart as i had thought 2016-02-10T16:33:42Z MrTrump: I thought they auto tuned for workload based on given hardware 2016-02-10T16:33:46Z MrTrump: its all manual 2016-02-10T16:34:03Z MrTrump: ok then why not aolserver tcl and postgresql by that line of logic 2016-02-10T16:34:17Z MrTrump: I thought one could learn scheme and skip SQL 2016-02-10T16:34:20Z wasamasa: lol 2016-02-10T16:34:22Z MrTrump: just use scheme 2016-02-10T16:34:48Z MrTrump: and flush all data to disk every 5min or something 2016-02-10T16:34:56Z wasamasa: then you'll have... mongodb 2016-02-10T16:34:59Z wasamasa: congrats 2016-02-10T16:35:12Z MrTrump: does scheme use 8 core boxes automatically? or must you run 1 scheme per cpu? 2016-02-10T16:35:19Z wasamasa: just with scheme instead of javascript 2016-02-10T16:35:39Z MrTrump: scheme>js 2016-02-10T16:35:41Z wasamasa: no schemas, no query language, manual joins, etc. 2016-02-10T16:35:52Z MrTrump: search over lists! 2016-02-10T16:36:03Z wasamasa: bad idea 2016-02-10T16:36:04Z nalaginrut: well, you can just use SXML as your DB 2016-02-10T16:36:09Z MrTrump: scheme must have nice data structure 2016-02-10T16:36:23Z wasamasa: you'll want to use b-trees or something of that sort and indexes on everything critical 2016-02-10T16:36:38Z MrTrump: property lists! 2016-02-10T16:36:41Z MrTrump: meta lists! 2016-02-10T16:36:49Z nalaginrut: ah, and you're writing a new non-sql DB 2016-02-10T16:36:52Z sethalves quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-02-10T16:37:08Z wasamasa: and nobody will know how to make that thing as fast as a postgres system :P 2016-02-10T16:37:13Z wasamasa: so, no, I wouldn't bother 2016-02-10T16:37:37Z MrTrump: http://www.vitanuova.com/solutions/distributed/index.html 2016-02-10T16:37:40Z MrTrump: this is kinda cool 2016-02-10T16:37:55Z davexunit: MrTrump: you're talking about Scheme as if it is one thing. Scheme is a family of programming languages, and a series of specifications. there's no single thing called "Scheme" to use. 2016-02-10T16:38:08Z MrTrump: ok assume say chicken scheme 2016-02-10T16:38:16Z MrTrump: cant i write a web apps 2016-02-10T16:38:20Z wasamasa: sure 2016-02-10T16:38:23Z MrTrump: that just uses data structures in the language? 2016-02-10T16:38:36Z wasamasa: you can define any data structure you want 2016-02-10T16:39:08Z MrTrump: So I can customize then to the app at hand. 2016-02-10T16:39:14Z MrTrump: Skipping postgresql 2016-02-10T16:39:28Z wasamasa: if you enjoy reinventing it, go ahead 2016-02-10T16:39:56Z MrTrump: avoiding having to learn 2 things 2016-02-10T16:40:06Z wasamasa: don't worry, you will have to learn lots 2016-02-10T16:40:10Z MrTrump: lol 2016-02-10T16:40:17Z MrTrump: I don't wana! 2016-02-10T16:40:18Z wasamasa: there is no way around it 2016-02-10T16:40:21Z MrTrump: :( 2016-02-10T16:40:24Z MrTrump: awwww 2016-02-10T16:40:37Z wasamasa: even if you go to work at mcdonalds, you'll have to learn how to make every single burger on their menu 2016-02-10T16:41:12Z wasamasa: worse, you need to make them quickly 2016-02-10T16:43:34Z wasamasa: generally, I recommend against scheme if you're not into learning 2016-02-10T16:44:00Z wasamasa: it doesn't come with batteries included and depending what implementation you pick, you'll have to write your own libraries to solve a task 2016-02-10T16:45:21Z MrTrump: I am into learning if in the end I can produce results. 2016-02-10T16:45:31Z wasamasa: like, when I wrote a small web application to display two or three random quotes, I had to write me something that can pick n random parts from a vector 2016-02-10T16:45:39Z wasamasa: such a thing just exists in more popular languages 2016-02-10T16:46:01Z MrTrump: I found python pain. 2016-02-10T16:46:16Z MrTrump: I know only bash, some tcl, lisp, forth 2016-02-10T16:49:30Z Riastradh joined #scheme 2016-02-10T16:52:48Z Mokuso: I've met a webdev at a hackathon once. He used to write his stuff in PHP once. He told me, screw PHP, go python all the way. 2016-02-10T16:53:01Z Mokuso: He had a big beard, so I trusted his opinion 2016-02-10T16:53:35Z wasamasa: lol 2016-02-10T16:54:27Z neoncontrails joined #scheme 2016-02-10T16:55:10Z Mokuso: fun part, he looked Indian, was Swedish, and relocated from London to Athens/GR working from distance 'cos the rent in Athens is way cheaper 2016-02-10T16:56:36Z nalaginrut wants to have big beard from now on... 2016-02-10T16:58:02Z igajsin joined #scheme 2016-02-10T17:03:11Z Riastradh quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2016-02-10T17:03:41Z Riastradh joined #scheme 2016-02-10T17:03:43Z daviid joined #scheme 2016-02-10T17:06:37Z biubiubiu quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 24.5.1)) 2016-02-10T17:08:44Z bb010g quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2016-02-10T17:09:08Z sid14726 quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2016-02-10T17:23:53Z drot quit (Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 25.0.90.1) 2016-02-10T17:25:26Z jcowan quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 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2016-02-11T17:44:29Z milkshake: @wasamasa I think it is doing even? for 5.But 5 is not even.So it should do same function.With same function it is 5. 2016-02-11T17:44:43Z wasamasa: I assume you're speaking of the last statement 2016-02-11T17:44:49Z milkshake: yes 2016-02-11T17:44:52Z wasamasa: the evaluator procedes from inside-out 2016-02-11T17:45:01Z wasamasa: so it first evaluates (even? x) 2016-02-11T17:45:12Z wasamasa: as x is 6, the value of that form is #t 2016-02-11T17:45:26Z wasamasa: (if #t inc same) will evaluate to inc 2016-02-11T17:45:38Z wasamasa: this is then turned into (inc 5) 2016-02-11T17:45:41Z wasamasa: which is 6 2016-02-11T17:45:48Z wasamasa: case closed 2016-02-11T17:46:20Z milkshake: wasamasa, oo it is interesting.Thank you very much 2016-02-11T17:47:13Z wasamasa: another way to think of it is that it procedes from left to right, but every time it encounters something that is not an atom or to be not evaluated (think of quoted symbols or lists), it goes one level deeper and inspects it 2016-02-11T17:47:22Z alexei_ joined #scheme 2016-02-11T17:48:00Z wasamasa: though, hm, that's not quite correct 2016-02-11T17:49:31Z milkshake: actually I thought inc or same function takes x as paramer 2016-02-11T17:52:35Z grettke joined #scheme 2016-02-11T18:03:10Z milkshake: wasamasa, http://paste.lisp.org/display/307048 can you also explain me this please 2016-02-11T18:06:45Z jao joined #scheme 2016-02-11T18:07:15Z sid14726 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-02-11T18:07:30Z hiroakip joined #scheme 2016-02-11T18:08:46Z dTal_ is now known as dTal 2016-02-11T18:09:56Z wasamasa: hmm 2016-02-11T18:09:56Z Riastradh joined #scheme 2016-02-11T18:13:02Z wasamasa: so this adds up cubes of a range of integers 2016-02-11T18:13:51Z wasamasa: I'd recommend writing up an example usage of it (with a known result), then evaluating it manually by writing up all the steps 2016-02-11T18:14:38Z bb010g joined #scheme 2016-02-11T18:15:55Z zadock quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-02-11T18:32:48Z dsp- quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-02-11T18:32:54Z dsp- joined #scheme 2016-02-11T18:32:56Z _sjs_ joined #scheme 2016-02-11T18:33:26Z stasku__ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-02-11T18:35:21Z _sjs quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2016-02-11T18:35:26Z samth quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-02-11T18:37:41Z milia quit (Quit: avrio pali) 2016-02-11T18:49:36Z jozefg quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-02-11T18:49:41Z quinoa joined #scheme 2016-02-11T18:49:49Z samth joined #scheme 2016-02-11T18:50:07Z stasku__ joined #scheme 2016-02-11T18:55:26Z Steverman quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-02-11T19:03:05Z davidh quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-02-11T19:05:22Z davidh joined #scheme 2016-02-11T19:05:41Z dbohdan_ is now known as dbohdan 2016-02-11T19:17:57Z milkshake quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-02-11T19:23:06Z hiroakip quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-02-11T19:29:45Z quinoa quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-02-11T19:36:14Z DGASAU quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-02-11T19:36:45Z DGASAU joined #scheme 2016-02-11T19:37:53Z hiroakip joined #scheme 2016-02-11T19:44:00Z ics quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2016-02-11T19:45:30Z daviid quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-02-11T20:03:07Z annodomini joined #scheme 2016-02-11T20:14:06Z altphi quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-02-11T20:14:48Z altphi joined #scheme 2016-02-11T20:18:05Z nckx|offline is now known as nckx 2016-02-11T20:18:35Z lambda-11235 quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.4) 2016-02-11T20:25:43Z grettke quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. 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2016-02-12T19:38:22Z cemerick joined #scheme 2016-02-12T19:44:20Z alexei_ joined #scheme 2016-02-12T19:48:02Z leppie: very quiet friday night here... 2016-02-12T19:49:02Z gnomon: NO IT ISN'T 2016-02-12T19:49:05Z gnomon: LA LA LA LA LA 2016-02-12T19:49:09Z gnomon pushes a chair over 2016-02-12T19:49:19Z gnomon throws a slumbering cat at leppie 2016-02-12T19:49:27Z gnomon tips over the milk bottles 2016-02-12T19:49:48Z leppie pets the cats, ignores the rest 2016-02-12T19:50:48Z leppie: where are the usual trolls? ;p 2016-02-12T19:51:06Z gnomon runs from room to room making loud gargling noises 2016-02-12T19:51:21Z gnomon: That's a good question, actually. 2016-02-12T19:51:36Z gnomon: Usually there are at least a few jerks in here... oh. 2016-02-12T19:51:43Z gnomon has a moment of sobering introspection 2016-02-12T19:52:17Z leppie spent 30 minutes in #clojure once, that place is troll haven! 2016-02-12T19:54:02Z leppie: The silency of #scheme is my inspiration 2016-02-12T19:55:29Z leppie: After 41 years (yes, the same age as me) people dont question the language or the syntax 2016-02-12T19:58:05Z karswell quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-02-12T19:58:11Z karswell` joined #scheme 2016-02-12T20:23:55Z ASau joined #scheme 2016-02-12T20:24:07Z gravicappa quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-02-12T20:39:03Z juanfra quit (Quit: juanfra) 2016-02-12T20:41:24Z jcowan joined #scheme 2016-02-12T20:43:24Z jcowan: ho hey 2016-02-12T20:43:31Z alezost quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-02-12T20:55:42Z cemerick quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2016-02-12T21:12:10Z daviid quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2016-02-12T21:15:41Z Menche quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-02-12T21:36:07Z badkins quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-02-12T21:43:27Z jeapostrophe joined #scheme 2016-02-12T21:48:46Z jeapostrophe quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2016-02-12T21:51:49Z drot quit (Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 25.0.90.1) 2016-02-12T21:55:18Z thatweirdguy joined #scheme 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'(v2) 'v2) => #f 2016-02-13T11:42:10Z tos-1: You need to test the cadar. 2016-02-13T11:43:22Z tos-1: Same problem with the appends: One append appends a list and one an element. 2016-02-13T11:43:41Z tos-1: Better use (cons (cadar l) c) and (cons (caar l) c) 2016-02-13T11:44:42Z tos-1: Which, however, will reverse the original order of neighbors. That might or might not be a problem. :) 2016-02-13T11:50:15Z milkshake: tos-1 http://paste.lisp.org/display/307156#1 I write like this but error again 2016-02-13T11:53:04Z zadock joined #scheme 2016-02-13T12:05:12Z karswell` quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-02-13T12:05:24Z karswell` joined #scheme 2016-02-13T12:10:24Z milkshake quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-02-13T12:12:03Z Opodeldoc quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-02-13T12:13:46Z milkshake joined #scheme 2016-02-13T12:14:21Z milkshake: tos-1 http://paste.lisp.org/display/307156#1 sorry my computer was sleep.If you write sth I did not see 2016-02-13T12:20:11Z jusss quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 24.5.1)) 2016-02-13T12:32:06Z jeapostrophe joined #scheme 2016-02-13T12:36:10Z jeapostrophe quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-02-13T12:39:07Z jeapostrophe joined #scheme 2016-02-13T12:45:50Z wasamasa quit (Quit: ZNC - http://znc.in) 2016-02-13T12:55:18Z quinoa joined #scheme 2016-02-13T13:00:51Z tos-1: milkshake: Quote v4. 2016-02-13T13:05:05Z milkshake: thank you very much tos-1 :) 2016-02-13T13:14:51Z altphi joined #scheme 2016-02-13T13:18:28Z cmatei quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-02-13T13:23:20Z davidh quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-02-13T13:32:35Z raindev quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-02-13T13:34:02Z grettke joined #scheme 2016-02-13T13:34:18Z grettke quit (Client Quit) 2016-02-13T13:37:27Z quinoa quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-02-13T13:48:43Z cmatei joined #scheme 2016-02-13T13:58:12Z milkshake quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-02-13T14:02:22Z pierpa joined #scheme 2016-02-13T14:05:55Z altphi quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-02-13T14:07:44Z davexunit joined #scheme 2016-02-13T14:32:46Z xyh joined #scheme 2016-02-13T14:33:10Z xyh: any ikarus users ? 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I thought I might go for The Little Schemer -> The Seasoned Schemer and then that one 2016-02-13T18:54:38Z sondr3: but from the description is almost sounds like it's in between both of them 2016-02-13T18:54:48Z annodomini quit (Quit: annodomini) 2016-02-13T18:55:07Z fantazo quit (Quit: Verlassend) 2016-02-13T18:59:16Z alexei_ joined #scheme 2016-02-13T19:03:21Z Riastradh joined #scheme 2016-02-13T19:03:53Z davidh quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-02-13T19:04:48Z Opodeldoc: Dunno. I read little -> seasoned -> reasoned 2016-02-13T19:06:13Z Opodeldoc: Although reasoned didn't particularly depend on seasoned either 2016-02-13T19:15:22Z _sjs joined #scheme 2016-02-13T19:15:51Z alezost quit (Quit: I live in GuixSD and Emacs ) 2016-02-13T19:19:29Z alexei_ quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-02-13T19:19:52Z _sjs quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-02-13T19:19:52Z sondr3: oh well, guess it's not hugely important 2016-02-13T19:22:07Z Opodeldoc: Not really. 2016-02-13T19:22:45Z gravicappa quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-02-13T19:23:11Z Opodeldoc: Far as I remember, schemer's about recursion, seasoned is about HoF and continuations, and reasoned is about ... basically, minikanren 2016-02-13T19:23:19Z alexei_ joined #scheme 2016-02-13T19:23:29Z phax joined #scheme 2016-02-13T19:26:40Z Opodeldoc: I'm 90% certain 'reasoned' doesn't wind up using continuations or such... but I've not read these in f'n eons 2016-02-13T19:27:03Z Opodeldoc: Maybe rereading them after ordering little prover is how I'll spend valentines day lol 2016-02-13T19:31:32Z lisper29 joined #scheme 2016-02-13T19:32:42Z lisper29 quit (Client Quit) 2016-02-13T19:43:04Z daviid joined #scheme 2016-02-13T19:44:11Z jeapostrophe quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-02-13T19:44:55Z jeapostrophe joined #scheme 2016-02-13T19:48:56Z grettke joined #scheme 2016-02-13T19:53:09Z ggole quit 2016-02-13T19:55:26Z annodomini joined #scheme 2016-02-13T19:55:26Z annodomini quit (Changing host) 2016-02-13T19:55:26Z annodomini joined #scheme 2016-02-13T20:08:09Z cemerick joined #scheme 2016-02-13T20:11:31Z annodomini quit (Quit: annodomini) 2016-02-13T20:13:14Z annodomini joined #scheme 2016-02-13T20:33:26Z Riastradh quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-02-13T20:34:41Z annodomini quit (Quit: annodomini) 2016-02-13T20:45:50Z Menche quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-02-13T20:47:40Z dxtr joined #scheme 2016-02-13T20:53:48Z annodomini joined #scheme 2016-02-13T20:53:48Z annodomini quit (Changing host) 2016-02-13T20:53:48Z annodomini joined #scheme 2016-02-13T21:09:22Z sondr3 quit (Quit: Sleep) 2016-02-13T21:17:08Z davidh joined #scheme 2016-02-13T21:38:26Z neoncontrails joined #scheme 2016-02-13T21:41:14Z neoncontrails quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-02-13T21:42:27Z _sjs joined #scheme 2016-02-13T21:43:23Z jeapostrophe quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2016-02-13T21:45:32Z lambda-11235 quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.4) 2016-02-13T21:47:12Z _sjs quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2016-02-13T21:49:27Z neoncontrails joined #scheme 2016-02-13T21:50:05Z neoncontrails quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-02-13T21:53:46Z cemerick quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-02-13T21:57:41Z phax quit (Quit: phax) 2016-02-13T21:58:33Z drot joined #scheme 2016-02-13T21:58:53Z drot quit (Client Quit) 2016-02-13T22:04:00Z ics quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2016-02-13T22:25:49Z Riastradh joined #scheme 2016-02-13T23:07:06Z phax joined #scheme 2016-02-13T23:07:15Z phax quit (Client Quit) 2016-02-13T23:10:46Z tos-1 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-02-13T23:39:46Z daviid quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-02-13T23:43:32Z Menche joined #scheme 2016-02-14T00:06:08Z stepnem quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-02-14T00:14:22Z neoncontrails joined #scheme 2016-02-14T00:17:46Z oleo_ joined #scheme 2016-02-14T00:19:46Z oleo quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-02-14T00:25:48Z jeapostrophe joined #scheme 2016-02-14T00:30:26Z jeapostrophe quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-02-14T00:51:41Z jeapostrophe joined #scheme 2016-02-14T01:00:02Z jeapostrophe quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-02-14T01:02:16Z jeapostrophe joined #scheme 2016-02-14T01:07:20Z micmus quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-02-14T01:07:23Z jeapostrophe quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2016-02-14T01:08:58Z daviid joined #scheme 2016-02-14T01:13:01Z annodomini quit (Quit: annodomini) 2016-02-14T01:26:07Z annodomini joined #scheme 2016-02-14T01:33:33Z nanoz joined #scheme 2016-02-14T01:36:01Z leot quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-02-14T01:37:32Z lambda-11235 joined #scheme 2016-02-14T01:42:10Z annodomini quit (Quit: annodomini) 2016-02-14T01:44:12Z _sjs joined #scheme 2016-02-14T01:47:59Z ASau quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-02-14T01:48:35Z ASau joined #scheme 2016-02-14T01:49:25Z alexei_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-02-14T01:51:04Z annodomini joined #scheme 2016-02-14T01:55:01Z leo_song joined #scheme 2016-02-14T02:01:55Z annodomini quit (Quit: annodomini) 2016-02-14T02:02:32Z lambda-11235 quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2016-02-14T02:09:56Z lritter joined #scheme 2016-02-14T02:09:59Z contrapunctus quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 24.5.1)) 2016-02-14T02:11:24Z jeapostrophe joined #scheme 2016-02-14T02:15:35Z acarrico quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-02-14T02:16:27Z grettke quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. 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I'm missing a list-subsection function in SRFI-1, i.e. 2016-02-14T16:16:31Z pflanze: (define (subsection l i0 i1) (take (drop l i0) (- i1 i0))) 2016-02-14T16:16:48Z pflanze: Where do you get that from instead, and/or how do or would you call that? 2016-02-14T16:18:12Z groovy2shoes: looks like you've got a perfectly suitable implementation right there 2016-02-14T16:20:26Z pflanze: Well, it could easily be optimized. 2016-02-14T16:20:37Z pflanze: But I'm really looking for the name I should give it. 2016-02-14T16:21:04Z pflanze: Also, whether the edge cases should give exceptions or not; I'm never sure about that... 2016-02-14T16:21:17Z Fare joined #scheme 2016-02-14T16:21:24Z Riastradh quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-02-14T16:25:40Z zadock quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2016-02-14T16:25:44Z pflanze: Actually I'm stupid, there's nothing to optimize. What was I thinking. 2016-02-14T16:34:00Z AlexDenisov joined #scheme 2016-02-14T16:36:00Z alexei_ joined #scheme 2016-02-14T16:39:22Z zadock joined #scheme 2016-02-14T16:40:23Z cemerick quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2016-02-14T16:48:09Z jcowan: pflanze: I would call it sublist, for the sake of uniformity. But if I did that sort of thing a lot, I'd use vectors. 2016-02-14T16:50:56Z pflanze: I'm thinking towards generic sequences. 2016-02-14T16:51:11Z pflanze: Then you'd have the same method on vectors, linked lists, etc. 2016-02-14T16:51:34Z pflanze: And that's also the reason I've tried to avoid using the word "list" in the name. 2016-02-14T16:52:22Z pflanze: But fair enough. Anyway if it seems like nobody's having a previous ingrained expectation, I think I'll stay with subsection. 2016-02-14T16:52:53Z pflanze: (or section, or subsequence, not sure actually) 2016-02-14T16:56:03Z jcowan: well, take and drop are not generic, at least not if you are using SRFI-1 2016-02-14T16:56:18Z jcowan: in fact, nothing in Scheme is generic: it is a relentlessly monomorphic language. 2016-02-14T16:56:31Z jcowan: (Exception: math operations are generic as between exact and inexact numbers.) 2016-02-14T17:00:12Z jeapostrophe joined #scheme 2016-02-14T17:01:25Z pflanze: Yes, I know. I do have generics prefixed with a dot, though. So my definition would be 2016-02-14T17:01:50Z pflanze: (define (.subsequence l i0 i1) (.take (.drop l i0) (- i1 i0))) 2016-02-14T17:02:41Z pflanze: or to allow for optimization for some types, e.g. vectors, instead define-method or similar. 2016-02-14T17:04:14Z jcowan nods 2016-02-14T17:04:34Z jcowan: I would avoid leading dot, personally 2016-02-14T17:05:04Z pflanze: Can't because of the name conflicts, unless I'd use namespacing/module system. 2016-02-14T17:05:20Z jeapostrophe quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-02-14T17:05:28Z pflanze: Also, I currently view it as a feature so that I see where the generics are. 2016-02-14T17:06:15Z pflanze: Maybe if I wrote a new Scheme, then I'd drop them and instead add some feature to easily see what the ops are (static type system??). 2016-02-14T17:06:57Z pflanze: (OTOH Clojure doesn't seem to have a problem with it anyway, so perhaps I'm worrying for naughts) 2016-02-14T17:07:51Z groovy2shoes: for what it's worth, I kinda like the leading dot idea 2016-02-14T17:08:18Z groovy2shoes: for the same reasons you mentioned 2016-02-14T17:08:53Z leot quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-02-14T17:09:26Z groovy2shoes: the only other option (if you're using R7RS, at least) is to just have them in a library and then people can optionally rename or prefix them whatever they want, but I think it's an error if they try to import with name conflicts 2016-02-14T17:09:54Z zadock quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-02-14T17:09:56Z pflanze: People would have to live with the expected list functions to be the generics I guess. 2016-02-14T17:10:13Z groovy2shoes: which means directly importing (scheme base) in addition is right out 2016-02-14T17:10:24Z pflanze: Well yes 2016-02-14T17:11:00Z pflanze: I'm currently using an object system that simply uses type predicates, and cycles through all methods of the same name until it finds one where the predicate returns true. 2016-02-14T17:11:19Z pflanze: (Which seems to be the same approach that one of the object systems in Clojure does) 2016-02-14T17:11:57Z pflanze: But I still wonder about the avenues to optimize that, and especially to order the checks according to type hierarchy instead of the order of definitions. 2016-02-14T17:12:19Z pflanze: If you've got any inputs on how to reduce the fun here for me, go ahead. 2016-02-14T17:14:58Z ggole: Sounds a bit like you're trying to reinvent CLOS 2016-02-14T17:15:23Z pflanze: CLOS strictly deals with types from the beginning, no? 2016-02-14T17:15:52Z pflanze: Using freely definable predicates means you can basically do generics dependently typed style. 2016-02-14T17:16:09Z ggole: Classes, not types - so no arbitrary code 2016-02-14T17:16:22Z pflanze: exactly 2016-02-14T17:17:02Z ggole: The benefit is that dispatch can be optimized (much) more easily 2016-02-14T17:17:03Z pflanze: I like that my type predicates are at the same time contracts. 2016-02-14T17:17:33Z pflanze: Exactly. So I made my life comfortable and now I'm in for some fun. 2016-02-14T17:17:38Z groovy2shoes: pflanze, you could instead represent the methods in a sort of trie, where the leaves are methods and the nodes are types 2016-02-14T17:17:52Z ggole: Seems like you could get yourself into performance trouble really easily that way 2016-02-14T17:17:57Z groovy2shoes: then you'd get closer to logarithmic search than linear 2016-02-14T17:18:19Z pflanze: groovy2shoes, true, good point. 2016-02-14T17:18:53Z groovy2shoes: you don't get that bonus of predicates =~ contracts that way, though 2016-02-14T17:19:04Z copycat joined #scheme 2016-02-14T17:19:05Z pflanze: What I'd love to do though is learn about code optimization/rewriting that would, in a first step, eliminate duplicate checks in the chains of these checks, 2016-02-14T17:19:21Z pflanze: and in a second step note the hierarchy by itself. 2016-02-14T17:19:43Z jcowan: I just meant that I don't think dot is a good choice, I would rather use / or the like 2016-02-14T17:20:02Z ggole: So pattern matching with types rather than constructors? 2016-02-14T17:20:03Z jcowan: something a little more visible, but not obnoxiously so like @ 2016-02-14T17:20:07Z ggole: You might be able to get away with that... 2016-02-14T17:20:16Z groovy2shoes: have you had a look at Gauche's, STklos's, or Guile's object systems? 2016-02-14T17:20:39Z pflanze: groovy2shoes, I don't remember having done so 2016-02-14T17:20:49Z groovy2shoes: might be a good place to get some inspiration 2016-02-14T17:20:54Z groovy2shoes: they're very CLOS-like 2016-02-14T17:20:58Z jcowan: Many people have reinvented predicate-based generic functions independently 2016-02-14T17:21:01Z jcowan: they are "in the air" 2016-02-14T17:21:18Z pflanze: jcowan, you mean like a recent trend? 2016-02-14T17:21:26Z jcowan: What is recent, in the Lisp world? 2016-02-14T17:21:35Z jcowan: I am one of said independent inventors 2016-02-14T17:21:56Z pflanze: Okay. Did you get further along the optimization route? 2016-02-14T17:22:02Z jcowan: no 2016-02-14T17:22:08Z groovy2shoes: heh, I independently invented ML trying to add types to Lua :D 2016-02-14T17:22:21Z jcowan: "It steam-engines when it comes steam-engine time" 2016-02-14T17:23:01Z groovy2shoes: I'd imagine predicate dispatch to be one of the most difficult forms of dispatch to optimize 2016-02-14T17:23:19Z jcowan: A good hack would be to add to SRFI 99 the ability to work backwards from a record-type predicate to get the record-type 2016-02-14T17:23:49Z jcowan: so if type foo inherits from bar, you probably want to order foo? before bar? in the methods list, but you don't know how 2016-02-14T17:24:06Z jcowan: after all, obvs a record-type predicate closes over the record-type object 2016-02-14T17:24:10Z annodomini quit (Quit: annodomini) 2016-02-14T17:25:12Z jcowan: so (record-type-predicate-disclose pred) => a record-type, or #f if pred is not a record-type predicate 2016-02-14T17:25:28Z pflanze: What I'm looking out for is something that would realize that given (define (natural0? x) (and (integer? x) (<= 0 x))) and (define (u8? x) (and (natural0? x) (< x 256))), 2016-02-14T17:25:54Z pflanze: u8? is responding to a subsection (hah) of that of natural0? 2016-02-14T17:25:57Z jcowan: Have you read Henry Baker's subtypep paper? 2016-02-14T17:26:01Z pflanze: hence could order it automatically. 2016-02-14T17:26:04Z pflanze: No 2016-02-14T17:26:43Z jcowan: http://www.pipeline.com/~hbaker1/Subtypep.html 2016-02-14T17:26:50Z jcowan: very much worth reading, as all his papers are 2016-02-14T17:27:25Z mokuso joined #scheme 2016-02-14T17:27:31Z jcowan: Chicken is based on another of his papers 2016-02-14T17:28:49Z ggole: You get into constraint solver territory pretty quickly with that kind of thing 2016-02-14T17:28:57Z ggole: Of course, maybe that is what you want. 2016-02-14T17:29:26Z oleo_ joined #scheme 2016-02-14T17:30:07Z pflanze: hmm, maybe, I guess I don't know what I want. :) 2016-02-14T17:30:14Z jcowan: ggole: The key to the paper is that the infinite number of types can be folded down to a finite number of cases 2016-02-14T17:30:56Z oleo quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-02-14T17:31:24Z annodomini joined #scheme 2016-02-14T17:32:41Z pflanze: Thanks for the link, I'll read it as soon as I can. Since it will blow my head right now I'll have to put it aside (need head for different things first). 2016-02-14T17:36:05Z ggole: jcowan: I'm not sure the paper's approach applies. I read it as treating CL type specifiers as *constructive* sets, whereas predicates are not constructive. 2016-02-14T17:36:55Z jcowan: Well, in the general case, no. But you don't need to solve the general case (indeed you cannot, as it is Turing-complete). But something like pflanze's example above can be solved by Baker's methods. 2016-02-14T17:38:04Z jcowan: incomplete solutions are another thing that is "in the air"; a JIT is an incomplete solution, so are Racket's futures 2016-02-14T17:38:18Z jcowan: (they provide parallelism only when it's easy, but it often is easy) 2016-02-14T17:38:18Z quinoa joined #scheme 2016-02-14T17:39:08Z Fare quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-02-14T17:39:29Z pflanze: I imagine there's also always the possibility to help it along manually (like type inference needs to be helped sometimes). 2016-02-14T17:39:34Z ggole: So the suggestion is to use this approach to try to optimize, falling back on simply calling the predicates for situations it doesn't handle? 2016-02-14T17:40:03Z ggole: That could work, although the user might be quite frustrated if they do not understand why their program is so slow (or so fast). 2016-02-14T17:40:13Z pflanze: I think to dissect the type predicates into a decision tree that's optimized. 2016-02-14T17:42:05Z pflanze: If it actually works then it should never be slow? 2016-02-14T17:42:58Z jcowan: ggole: Yes, just so 2016-02-14T17:43:17Z pflanze: I mean I hope the analyzer would throw an error if it can't optimize, and then you'd help it along in some way. 2016-02-14T17:43:17Z jcowan: As the saying is, Lisp programmers know the value of everything and the cost of nothing 2016-02-14T17:43:53Z ggole: Mmm. 2016-02-14T17:44:00Z jcowan: (the reverse of Oscar Wilde's defn. of a cynic) 2016-02-14T17:44:03Z pflanze: Also there are profilers and the object system would provide an "expander". 2016-02-14T17:44:21Z ggole: And the problem of comprehension might be much more bearable if the user is the implementor. 2016-02-14T17:44:33Z jcowan chuckles 2016-02-14T17:44:40Z jcowan: And that's why we have 100+ Scheme implementations 2016-02-14T17:44:47Z jcowan: of which I have fifty up and running 2016-02-14T17:44:56Z copycat quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-02-14T17:45:00Z ggole: "Ah, that's how call/cc works..." 2016-02-14T17:47:11Z Opodeldoc: Reading Baker bakes the brain. 2016-02-14T17:47:20Z Opodeldoc: Guess I know how I'll be spending vday hah 2016-02-14T17:53:37Z turtleman joined #scheme 2016-02-14T17:54:07Z jcowan: Hangning out with Goosetherumfoodle? 2016-02-14T17:58:51Z davexunit joined #scheme 2016-02-14T18:03:02Z hiroakip quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2016-02-14T18:03:58Z igajsin joined #scheme 2016-02-14T18:04:13Z igajsin left #scheme 2016-02-14T18:04:23Z quinoa quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-02-14T18:08:49Z groovy2shoes: pflanze, reading your comments on HN: for what it's worth, scheme-48 is probably my favorite in terms of implementation / philosophy, though I tend to stick with Gauche for my needs 2016-02-14T18:11:46Z taylan quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-02-14T18:16:11Z Opodeldoc: "Linear Logic and Permutation Stacks--The Forth Shall Be First". ACM Computer Architecture News 22, 1 (March 1994), 34-43. Linear objects and stack architectures (of a particular type) are an excellent match. Compiling Lisp w/closures into Postscript; the Y combinator in Postscript! Includes a rather complete bibliography of stack architectures." 2016-02-14T18:16:18Z Opodeldoc: That looks like a fun weekend read 2016-02-14T18:18:58Z raindev quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-02-14T18:20:44Z jeapostrophe joined #scheme 2016-02-14T18:20:44Z jeapostrophe quit (Changing host) 2016-02-14T18:20:44Z jeapostrophe joined #scheme 2016-02-14T18:23:50Z raindev joined #scheme 2016-02-14T18:25:28Z pflanze: groovy2shoes, ok. What are you using Gauche for? 2016-02-14T18:25:43Z raindev quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-02-14T18:26:48Z groovy2shoes: pflanze, to be honest, my needs seem to be quite a bit different from yours ;) mostly scripts and small utilities at the moment... it's pretty good for that kind of thing, and every release adds quite a few goodies 2016-02-14T18:27:27Z groovy2shoes: I looked into gambit quite some time ago, but I'll have to take another look at these things it does right, because I'm working on my own interpreter 2016-02-14T18:27:41Z jcowan: ... but then, who isn't? 2016-02-14T18:27:48Z groovy2shoes: heheh 2016-02-14T18:28:13Z wasamasa: I considered doing MAL 2016-02-14T18:28:15Z wasamasa: in elisp 2016-02-14T18:28:37Z wasamasa: it's a good deal simpler than implementing scheme 2016-02-14T18:29:22Z wasamasa: and the tutorial is pretty good: https://github.com/kanaka/mal/blob/master/process/guide.md 2016-02-14T18:29:23Z groovy2shoes: MAL? 2016-02-14T18:29:32Z groovy2shoes: ah 2016-02-14T18:30:14Z wasamasa: the language is clojure-like, minus the huge stdlib 2016-02-14T18:37:34Z kuribas joined #scheme 2016-02-14T18:37:35Z groovy2shoes: Scheme isn't so hard to implement, thougha 2016-02-14T18:37:48Z jeapostrophe quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-02-14T18:38:06Z groovy2shoes: the toughest part is probably continuations, but even TinyScheme has them in about 5000 lines of C (along with most of R5RS) 2016-02-14T18:40:12Z badkins joined #scheme 2016-02-14T18:44:18Z badkins quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-02-14T18:46:27Z gravicappa quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-02-14T18:58:22Z ASau` joined #scheme 2016-02-14T18:59:44Z daviid joined #scheme 2016-02-14T19:00:10Z AlexDenisov quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2016-02-14T19:00:44Z AlexDenisov joined #scheme 2016-02-14T19:01:38Z ASau quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-02-14T19:04:41Z leot joined #scheme 2016-02-14T19:09:22Z ogam quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-02-14T19:25:59Z Fare joined #scheme 2016-02-14T19:43:55Z taylan joined #scheme 2016-02-14T19:45:14Z jeapostrophe joined #scheme 2016-02-14T19:57:12Z daviid quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2016-02-14T20:01:01Z mokuso quit (Quit: leaving) 2016-02-14T20:14:06Z cemerick joined #scheme 2016-02-14T20:22:21Z grettke quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. 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2016-02-15T15:51:55Z aerialB: In SICP, a factorial which takes place as a sequence of deferred operations is called a "linear recursive process" and another factorial which does not have any such expansion is called a "linear iterative process". However, both procedures are defined in terms of themselves. I thought that would mean both are recursive? 2016-02-15T15:52:41Z aerialB: 'in terms of themselves' meaning for e.g. `(define (x) (x)` 2016-02-15T15:52:53Z aerialB: missing parens, sorry 2016-02-15T15:53:15Z alezost joined #scheme 2016-02-15T15:55:17Z fizzie: The procedures are recursive; the processes are not. 2016-02-15T15:55:35Z fizzie: See the paragraph that goes: "In contrasting iteration and recursion, we must be careful not to confuse the notion of a recursive process with the notion of a recursive procedure." 2016-02-15T15:56:59Z aerialB: oh I hadn't gotten that far, cheers :) 2016-02-15T15:58:03Z annodomini joined #scheme 2016-02-15T15:58:03Z annodomini quit (Changing host) 2016-02-15T15:58:03Z annodomini joined #scheme 2016-02-15T15:59:33Z AlexDenisov quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. 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(section 2.1) 2016-02-15T17:38:19Z AlexDenisov: groovy2shoes yepp, thank you, I wasn't sure if I miss something in the docs 2016-02-15T17:39:33Z nckx|offline is now known as nckx 2016-02-15T17:39:39Z nilg` joined #scheme 2016-02-15T17:44:16Z sethalves joined #scheme 2016-02-15T17:46:12Z ecraven: hehe, nicely written: http://panicz.github.io/pamphlet/ 2016-02-15T17:49:08Z Riastradh joined #scheme 2016-02-15T17:49:19Z Riastradh quit (Changing host) 2016-02-15T17:49:19Z Riastradh joined #scheme 2016-02-15T17:52:05Z nilg` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-02-15T17:54:46Z hiroakip joined #scheme 2016-02-15T17:55:05Z DGASAU quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-02-15T17:55:56Z DGASAU joined #scheme 2016-02-15T17:59:59Z iloveunix8955 joined #scheme 2016-02-15T18:00:04Z alexei_ quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2016-02-15T18:08:08Z daviid joined #scheme 2016-02-15T18:10:02Z alexei_ joined #scheme 2016-02-15T18:19:31Z _sjs joined #scheme 2016-02-15T18:19:56Z alexei_ quit (Ping 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2016-02-16T05:45:22Z Opodeldoc: Probably some buffering somewhere. 2016-02-16T05:45:41Z Menche: hrm 2016-02-16T05:46:29Z Menche: huh, it works as I expected in chicken 2016-02-16T05:46:43Z Menche: does it seemingly out of order in gauche 2016-02-16T05:47:00Z Opodeldoc: maybe chicken's write-string calls fflush(stdout) 2016-02-16T05:47:09Z alexei_ joined #scheme 2016-02-16T05:48:37Z Menche: so it is evaluating the expressions in order, but something in how it processes the i/o behind the scenes screws it up 2016-02-16T05:49:14Z Opodeldoc: Menche: try (begin (write-string "enter something: ") (flush) (read)) in gauche 2016-02-16T05:49:49Z Menche: hrm, picrin does that too 2016-02-16T05:50:18Z Opodeldoc: Menche: I'd bet (newline) would do it too, although, with a newline printed. 2016-02-16T05:50:23Z Menche: flush is an unbound variable 2016-02-16T05:50:53Z Menche: oh, flush-output-port 2016-02-16T05:51:00Z Opodeldoc: Weird. http://practical-scheme.net/gauche/man/gauche-refe_62.html#Output made it seem it was there 2016-02-16T05:51:11Z Opodeldoc: flush-output-port then :) 2016-02-16T05:51:24Z Menche: I have a copy of r7rs here :) 2016-02-16T05:51:45Z Opodeldoc: if there's an r7rs way just use that then 2016-02-16T05:52:54Z Opodeldoc: But basically, at least in C land, an oversimplification is that file handles are "line buffered"... unless you send a newline or just bufsiz+1 chars it isn't sending anything yet. 2016-02-16T05:53:25Z Opodeldoc: And a lot of scheme runtimes are just layers over the C interfaces. 2016-02-16T05:57:59Z _sjs joined #scheme 2016-02-16T06:00:23Z Menche: adding (flush-output-port) in there does fix it, yeah 2016-02-16T06:02:52Z _sjs quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2016-02-16T06:05:15Z alexei_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-02-16T06:05:23Z phax quit (Quit: phax) 2016-02-16T06:08:21Z Menche quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-02-16T06:26:30Z lambda-11235 quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.4) 2016-02-16T06:32:34Z jeapostrophe joined #scheme 2016-02-16T06:36:55Z jeapostrophe quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-02-16T07:00:21Z Menche joined #scheme 2016-02-16T07:00:59Z pierpa quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-02-16T07:19:16Z akkad quit (Quit: Emacs must have died) 2016-02-16T07:31:00Z SGASAU joined #scheme 2016-02-16T07:39:02Z nee` joined #scheme 2016-02-16T07:41:58Z foof` joined #scheme 2016-02-16T07:43:50Z foof quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-02-16T07:45:51Z jeaye quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-02-16T07:46:29Z finnrobi quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-02-16T07:46:44Z finnrobi joined #scheme 2016-02-16T07:53:55Z amz3 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-02-16T08:04:11Z neoncontrails quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-02-16T08:12:41Z jeaye joined #scheme 2016-02-16T08:14:35Z karswell` joined #scheme 2016-02-16T08:15:17Z karswell quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-02-16T08:18:36Z Menche quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-02-16T08:18:58Z Menche joined #scheme 2016-02-16T08:19:22Z Menche is now known as Guest17910 2016-02-16T08:19:33Z Guest17910 quit (Changing host) 2016-02-16T08:19:33Z Guest17910 joined #scheme 2016-02-16T08:20:43Z jeapostrophe joined #scheme 2016-02-16T08:20:43Z jeapostrophe quit (Changing host) 2016-02-16T08:20:43Z jeapostrophe joined #scheme 2016-02-16T08:22:19Z Guest17910 quit (Client Quit) 2016-02-16T08:23:47Z QuailChaser joined #scheme 2016-02-16T08:24:29Z adu quit (Quit: adu) 2016-02-16T08:26:08Z jeapostrophe quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-02-16T08:26:20Z micmus joined #scheme 2016-02-16T08:28:40Z QuailChaser quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-02-16T08:29:21Z neoncontrails joined #scheme 2016-02-16T08:31:15Z grublet quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-02-16T08:33:19Z grublet joined #scheme 2016-02-16T08:34:44Z QuailChaser joined #scheme 2016-02-16T08:35:26Z QuailChaser quit (Changing host) 2016-02-16T08:35:26Z QuailChaser joined #scheme 2016-02-16T08:35:55Z QuailChaser quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-02-16T08:36:53Z QuailChaser joined #scheme 2016-02-16T08:38:06Z QuailChaser quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-02-16T08:41:48Z QuailChaser joined #scheme 2016-02-16T08:42:15Z QuailChaser quit (Changing host) 2016-02-16T08:42:15Z QuailChaser joined #scheme 2016-02-16T08:46:58Z QuailChaser is now known as Menche 2016-02-16T08:52:21Z contrapunctus joined #scheme 2016-02-16T08:54:26Z AlexDenisov quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. 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chicken implements it as begin0 but it's non standard iirc 2016-02-17T11:05:12Z _0x5eb_ joined #scheme 2016-02-17T11:05:23Z taylan: ecraven: it would be called (let ((result first)) rest ... result) :) 2016-02-17T11:05:41Z Opodeldoc: Is there even a prog0? I know CL has prog1/prog2/progn... 2016-02-17T11:05:41Z drdo joined #scheme 2016-02-17T11:05:47Z taylan: is it really a common pattern? 2016-02-17T11:05:51Z cartwright joined #scheme 2016-02-17T11:05:53Z C-Keen: chicken implements it as begin0 but it's non standard iirc 2016-02-17T11:06:16Z ecraven: ah, my fault, prog1 of course, not prog0 :-/ 2016-02-17T11:06:33Z ecraven: C-Keen: MIT/GNU Scheme has begin0 too, so that's portable enough :) 2016-02-17T11:06:49Z carc joined #scheme 2016-02-17T11:07:08Z profess joined #scheme 2016-02-17T11:07:12Z C-Keen: yeah begin0 implements prog1 2016-02-17T11:07:28Z m0li joined #scheme 2016-02-17T11:07:32Z m0li is now known as Guest25343 2016-02-17T11:07:40Z Opodeldoc: ^^^ 2016-02-17T11:07:50Z jyc quit (Ping timeout: 257 seconds) 2016-02-17T11:08:11Z C-Keen: and for some things it is a common pattern 2016-02-17T11:08:20Z oskarth joined #scheme 2016-02-17T11:08:33Z C-Keen: stuff with side effects mostly 2016-02-17T11:08:43Z CustosL1men quit (Ping 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Not sure if that can be adapted for hashing 2016-02-17T14:51:48Z pkjcnf quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-02-17T14:52:11Z snow_bckspc quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2016-02-17T14:53:44Z pkjcnf joined #scheme 2016-02-17T14:53:55Z AlexDenisov quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2016-02-17T14:54:04Z pkjcnf: leppie: do you want perfect hashing? 2016-02-17T14:54:59Z leppie: anything that can deal with cycles, but better than returning 0 2016-02-17T14:55:17Z pkjcnf: may there be hash collisions or not? 2016-02-17T14:55:28Z altphi quit (Quit: somno opus est.) 2016-02-17T14:55:29Z leppie: I dont mind collisions 2016-02-17T14:57:57Z magically joined #scheme 2016-02-17T14:58:08Z aerialB joined #scheme 2016-02-17T14:58:18Z leppie: vicare (and IronScheme) simply uses string-hash after writing the object to a port, but the writer in IronScheme does not handle cycles either (I guess if I implement that, I can still use it, but slow...) 2016-02-17T14:59:20Z pkjcnf` joined #scheme 2016-02-17T14:59:29Z altphi joined #scheme 2016-02-17T14:59:30Z pkjcnf`: Is it really not acceptable to return the sub-hash 0 for every encountered cycle? 2016-02-17T15:00:04Z pkjcnf`: After all, you would still a have a (mostly) unique hash for the object containing itself. 2016-02-17T15:00:12Z pkjcnf quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2016-02-17T15:00:18Z leppie: I was thinking of that just now :) 2016-02-17T15:00:59Z foof: in R6RS you have to preserve isomorphism 2016-02-17T15:02:11Z foof: oh, actual hashes, not #0# :) 2016-02-17T15:02:15Z pkjcnf joined #scheme 2016-02-17T15:02:27Z snow_bckspc joined #scheme 2016-02-17T15:02:34Z pkjcnf`` joined #scheme 2016-02-17T15:02:38Z nee`` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-02-17T15:03:09Z pkjcnf``: If you manage to give the sub-hash 0 *only* to cycles, your hash function should not suffer much. 2016-02-17T15:03:56Z leppie: wondering if I should return 0 for records, or actually dive into them, rest should be easy 2016-02-17T15:04:35Z pkjcnf` quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2016-02-17T15:05:24Z leppie: but the former will hurt if your root objects are records... diving it will be then 2016-02-17T15:07:38Z daviid joined #scheme 2016-02-17T15:08:04Z pkjcnf quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-02-17T15:08:13Z pkjcnf`` quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2016-02-17T15:08:50Z pkjcnf joined #scheme 2016-02-17T15:09:14Z pkjcnf: I think you should dive into everything to get a reasonably good hash. 2016-02-17T15:12:36Z pkjcnf: SRFI-69 has an example of a portable hash function, but afaik it does neither dive into records, nor handle cycles. 2016-02-17T15:15:00Z pierpa joined #scheme 2016-02-17T15:17:35Z ggole: You can not explicitly handle cycles and instead terminate on a certain depth 2016-02-17T15:18:05Z samth quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2016-02-17T15:18:05Z ggole: This will result in "unfolding" of the calculation for shared parts, but the hash should still be usable 2016-02-17T15:20:05Z samth joined #scheme 2016-02-17T15:21:06Z Neet quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-02-17T15:21:07Z Riviera quit (Quit: Reconnecting) 2016-02-17T15:22:00Z pkjcnf` joined #scheme 2016-02-17T15:22:16Z Riviera joined #scheme 2016-02-17T15:23:01Z Neet joined #scheme 2016-02-17T15:23:52Z pkjcnf quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-02-17T15:29:46Z taylan quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-02-17T15:30:08Z taylan joined #scheme 2016-02-17T15:33:30Z GGMethos quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2016-02-17T15:38:10Z amz` quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-02-17T15:38:35Z amz` joined #scheme 2016-02-17T15:38:37Z GGMethos joined #scheme 2016-02-17T15:42:42Z amz` quit (Changing host) 2016-02-17T15:42:42Z amz` joined #scheme 2016-02-17T15:46:05Z mastokley joined #scheme 2016-02-17T15:50:01Z amz` quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2016-02-17T15:50:46Z pkjcnf` quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2016-02-17T15:52:20Z amz` joined #scheme 2016-02-17T15:56:09Z pierpa quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-02-17T15:56:28Z pierpa joined #scheme 2016-02-17T15:56:49Z clauswitt quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. 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(set! v (make-vec2d (- (vec2d-x v) 3) (vec2d-y v))) seems very verbose :-/ 2016-02-17T18:02:16Z _0x5eb_ joined #scheme 2016-02-17T18:03:06Z davexunit: ecraven: that's one possible translation. 2016-02-17T18:04:05Z davexunit: note that you've replaced a mutable type in the original example with an immutable type in the second 2016-02-17T18:04:22Z davexunit: if v was mutable in the scheme example, there could be a setter for each element 2016-02-17T18:04:47Z ecraven: davexunit: which would make it (set-vec2d-x! (- (vec2d-x v) 3)), still very verbose :-/ 2016-02-17T18:04:53Z davexunit: so? 2016-02-17T18:05:15Z ecraven: well, in general I would argue (down to a certain limit) more to read = worse :-) 2016-02-17T18:05:22Z davexunit: sigh 2016-02-17T18:05:25Z davexunit: I can't do this right now 2016-02-17T18:05:38Z ecraven: and normally you can do wonders with macros, but for "mathy" code this doesn't seem so obvious to me 2016-02-17T18:05:49Z ecraven: (decf v 3) :p 2016-02-17T18:06:07Z micmus quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2016-02-17T18:06:13Z davexunit: I have immutable vectors in my game engine, subtraction looks like this: 2016-02-17T18:06:14Z davexunit: (v- v (vector2 3 0)) 2016-02-17T18:06:41Z ecraven: davexunit: is that game engine's source viewable anywhere? 2016-02-17T18:07:13Z davexunit: https://dthompson.us/pages/software/sly.html 2016-02-17T18:07:21Z davexunit: git repo https://git.dthompson.us/sly.git 2016-02-17T18:08:49Z magine-pc quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2016-02-17T18:09:23Z badkins joined #scheme 2016-02-17T18:11:22Z ecraven: davexunit: thank you! 2016-02-17T18:11:48Z hiroakip quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2016-02-17T18:15:02Z ggole quit 2016-02-17T18:17:11Z Opodeldoc joined #scheme 2016-02-17T18:19:33Z lambda-11235 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-02-17T18:21:23Z daviid quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2016-02-17T18:21:44Z lambda-11235 joined #scheme 2016-02-17T18:21:47Z magine-pc joined #scheme 2016-02-17T18:23:00Z magine-pc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-02-17T18:25:26Z magine-pc joined #scheme 2016-02-17T18:35:03Z magine-pc quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-02-17T18:37:12Z hiroakip joined #scheme 2016-02-17T18:48:33Z magine-pc joined #scheme 2016-02-17T18:52:03Z metaf5 joined #scheme 2016-02-17T18:59:17Z rjnw joined #scheme 2016-02-17T19:13:32Z magine-pc quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-02-17T19:21:03Z magine-pc joined #scheme 2016-02-17T19:34:13Z AlexDenisov joined #scheme 2016-02-17T19:39:32Z mumptai joined #scheme 2016-02-17T19:41:47Z magine-pc quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-02-17T19:43:13Z copperflame joined #scheme 2016-02-17T19:43:26Z copperflame left #scheme 2016-02-17T19:46:24Z nilg joined #scheme 2016-02-17T19:49:53Z magine-pc joined #scheme 2016-02-17T19:53:38Z Flippers joined #scheme 2016-02-17T19:54:52Z zadock joined #scheme 2016-02-17T19:56:31Z cemerick joined #scheme 2016-02-17T20:04:56Z daviid joined #scheme 2016-02-17T20:11:00Z Guest49472 quit (Quit: leaving) 2016-02-17T20:11:02Z AlexDenisov quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. 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2016-02-18T01:31:05Z jcowan: dpk: ^^ 2016-02-18T01:31:07Z jeaye joined #scheme 2016-02-18T01:32:31Z ogam joined #scheme 2016-02-18T01:36:28Z dpk: does vector-partition also sort the n smallest elements? 2016-02-18T01:37:22Z jcowan: no, because it's faster not to, and if you want them sorted, it's trivial to do so 2016-02-18T01:37:41Z jcowan: but it is about comparison, which is why (along with delete-neighbor-dupes and a few others) it is in the sorting SRFI 2016-02-18T01:38:25Z jcowan: also median 2016-02-18T01:38:43Z ogam quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2016-02-18T01:38:43Z dpk: vector-move-smallest-to-front is too long, i suppose 2016-02-18T01:39:01Z jcowan: Umm, yeah 2016-02-18T01:39:03Z jcowan: even for Scheme 2016-02-18T01:39:21Z jcowan: they really are both partitions, it's just a different rule for partitioning 2016-02-18T01:41:01Z sondr3 joined #scheme 2016-02-18T01:41:58Z dpk: vector-partition-no-the-other-partition 2016-02-18T01:42:21Z jcowan laughs 2016-02-18T01:42:48Z turtleman quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-02-18T01:42:49Z magine-pc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-02-18T01:43:10Z dpk: vector-with-smallest-first is a bit shorter … 2016-02-18T01:43:14Z jcowan: in R6RS there are functions real? and real-value?, which differ in how they treat an inexact zero as the imaginary part 2016-02-18T01:43:17Z magine-pc joined #scheme 2016-02-18T01:43:34Z jcowan: this was shot down in R7RS, because nobody could remember which one did what, and nobody could come up with better names 2016-02-18T01:43:53Z jcowan: s/in/for 2016-02-18T01:48:25Z jcowan is now known as woldemar 2016-02-18T01:49:09Z dpk: i'm a bit stuck on the naming problem, sorry 2016-02-18T01:50:34Z magine-pc quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-02-18T01:51:58Z woldemar: Come to think of it, partition is probably bad for both of them, because (list-)partition etc. partition by a predicate 2016-02-18T01:59:26Z davexunit quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-02-18T01:59:41Z davexunit joined #scheme 2016-02-18T02:02:32Z davexunit quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-02-18T02:12:49Z neoncontrails joined #scheme 2016-02-18T02:15:01Z aap_ joined #scheme 2016-02-18T02:15:20Z vifino quit (Quit: Who turned this off?! 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(make-foo 1) (make-foo 1)) 2016-02-18T15:12:00Z taylan: leppie: IIRC not. you can check the spec online... 2016-02-18T15:12:18Z leppie: taylan: it is not quite clear 2016-02-18T15:12:19Z taylan: http://www.r6rs.org/final/html/r6rs/r6rs-Z-H-14.html#node_idx_436 2016-02-18T15:12:24Z taylan looks 2016-02-18T15:12:53Z taylan: "The equal? predicate treats pairs and vectors as nodes with outgoing edges, ..." 2016-02-18T15:12:53Z leppie: "the structure of the two objects cannot be distinguished by any composition of pair and vector accessors along with the eqv?, string=?, and bytevector=?" 2016-02-18T15:13:00Z taylan: so it doesn't recurse into records 2016-02-18T15:13:11Z taylan: and it uses eqv? to compare them 2016-02-18T15:13:11Z leppie: what does "any composition of pair and vector accessors" mean? 2016-02-18T15:13:28Z leppie: just car/cdr and vector-ref? 2016-02-18T15:13:49Z taylan: I suppose so 2016-02-18T15:14:14Z taylan: I don't see that phrase there BTW, where does it appear? (just out of curiosity; seems to imply the same thing anyway) 2016-02-18T15:14:32Z leppie: in that case, it simplifies my equal-hash proc a lot (even though I actually implemented it with records...) 2016-02-18T15:15:10Z leppie: Oops, that comes from TSPL 2016-02-18T15:16:25Z karswell` joined #scheme 2016-02-18T15:16:46Z leppie: anyways, here is my equal-hash experiment (with diving into records) that handles cycles. Hardly optimized, but good enough I guess :) https://gist.github.com/leppie/99b774100763b4d570ef 2016-02-18T15:17:00Z leppie: portable except for eqv-hash 2016-02-18T15:19:55Z leppie: bytevector is also horrible ;p was lazy 2016-02-18T15:25:27Z nilg quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-02-18T15:26:41Z nilg joined #scheme 2016-02-18T15:31:41Z AlexDenisov joined #scheme 2016-02-18T15:51:58Z _sjs joined #scheme 2016-02-18T15:54:15Z nilg quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-02-18T15:56:49Z lambda-11235 quit (Quit: Bye) 2016-02-18T16:05:52Z nee` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-02-18T16:08:26Z rockstar_ joined #scheme 2016-02-18T16:10:18Z adu joined #scheme 2016-02-18T16:10:46Z rockstar_: First time writing Scheme program. I have input like this (define students '(("Student 1" (57 57 80 47 68 56 84 65 67 54)) ("Student 2" (57 69 57 84 87 71 77 69 61 48)))). And I want to find average score of the students. So output should be like (("Student 1" 63 1/2) ("Student 2" 68) ("Student 3" 61))) How should I write the code? 2016-02-18T16:11:13Z rockstar_: Oops 1 less student in the output 2016-02-18T16:12:03Z ecraven: rockstar_: you probably want write a function to calculate the average of a list of numbers 2016-02-18T16:12:07Z ecraven: then use that on each student 2016-02-18T16:13:03Z rockstar_: ecraven: I literally just tried helloworld in scheme :D Any script help would be great! ^^ 2016-02-18T16:13:28Z amz`: :/ 2016-02-18T16:13:32Z ecraven: rockstar_: what did you learn so far? if this is homework, which functions do you know so far? 2016-02-18T16:14:20Z rockstar_: ecraven: I'm TA assigned in wrong course for me. I just learned helloworld and how array/list is defined. 2016-02-18T16:15:08Z ecraven: rockstar_: well, how would you mathematically calculate the average of a list of numbers? 2016-02-18T16:15:25Z rockstar_: sum/count 2016-02-18T16:15:53Z rockstar_: ecraven: sum/count 2016-02-18T16:16:39Z kuribas joined #scheme 2016-02-18T16:16:45Z karswell` is now known as karswell 2016-02-18T16:17:47Z ogam joined #scheme 2016-02-18T16:20:24Z pierpa joined #scheme 2016-02-18T16:20:29Z ecraven: exactly. how do you get the count of the scores? 2016-02-18T16:21:46Z rockstar_: I dunno in scheme, but in java there are function of array object to get length of the array 2016-02-18T16:22:51Z ogam quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-02-18T16:23:13Z ecraven: same in Scheme :) 2016-02-18T16:23:22Z ecraven: there's a function called `length' to get the length of a list 2016-02-18T16:23:36Z ecraven: rudybot: (length '(57 69 57 84 87 71 77 69 61 48)) 2016-02-18T16:23:37Z rudybot: ecraven: your sandbox is ready 2016-02-18T16:23:37Z rudybot: ecraven: ; Value: 10 2016-02-18T16:24:28Z davexunit: if 'length' is a question you are often asking, and the list is long, then you should consider something besides s a list to use. 2016-02-18T16:24:33Z davexunit: length is O(n) 2016-02-18T16:25:07Z _sjs quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2016-02-18T16:27:20Z magine-pc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-02-18T16:27:32Z rockstar_: ecraven: cool! ^^ First function made to do sqr and now I know function length. Now I need to iterate through the list and find individual's sum. How can I do that? 2016-02-18T16:27:47Z magine-pc joined #scheme 2016-02-18T16:31:02Z magine-pc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-02-18T16:31:09Z magine-pc joined #scheme 2016-02-18T16:38:10Z _sjs joined #scheme 2016-02-18T16:43:04Z adu quit (Quit: adu) 2016-02-18T16:45:07Z amz`: rockstar_: here is a tutorial to learn scheme http://amirouche.github.io/learn-scheme-guile/ 2016-02-18T16:48:17Z rockstar_: amz`: thanks. ^^ I'm trying to write a function to find sum of numbers in a list. Any example for that? 2016-02-18T16:48:29Z magine-pc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-02-18T16:51:56Z amz`: (apply (sum (list 1 2 3 4))) 2016-02-18T16:52:01Z amz`: it's in the tutorial IIRC 2016-02-18T16:52:31Z Pixel_Outlaw joined #scheme 2016-02-18T16:54:21Z ski: rudybot: eval (my-sum-list (list 2 3 5 7)) ; rockstar_, example of a function summing a list 2016-02-18T16:54:22Z rudybot: ski: ; Value: 4 2016-02-18T16:55:14Z rockstar_: ski: Error: execute: unbound symbol: "my-sum-list" [] 2016-02-18T16:55:36Z grublet quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-02-18T16:55:45Z rockstar_: ecraven: amz` ski rudybot I tried this, error - (define sum ( lambda (L) (+ (car L) (sum (cdr L)))) ) (display (sum '(3,4))) 2016-02-18T16:56:10Z amz`: (dispaly (sum '(3 4))) 2016-02-18T16:56:17Z amz`: there is no comma in lists in scheme 2016-02-18T16:56:23Z ski: rockstar_ : i defined it on my own (privately) 2016-02-18T16:56:37Z ski: rudybot: give rockstar_ my-sum-list 2016-02-18T16:56:37Z rudybot: rockstar_: ski has given you a value, say "rudybot: eval (GRAB)" to get it (case sensitive) 2016-02-18T16:56:51Z rockstar_: ski: I dunno how to create those function. That is the main problem :P 2016-02-18T16:57:12Z ski: rudybot : you can say `rudybot: (define my-sum-list (GRAB))' to play with it, if you feel like 2016-02-18T16:57:19Z ski: er, rockstar_ ^ 2016-02-18T16:58:04Z rockstar_: can anybody tell me why this throws error? 2016-02-18T16:58:05Z rockstar_: (define sum ( lambda (L) (+ (car L) (sum (cdr L) ) ) ) ) 2016-02-18T16:58:11Z rockstar_: (display (sum '(3 4))) 2016-02-18T16:58:23Z ski: (er, also i'm apparently not awake enough, since i wrote a bug in it) 2016-02-18T16:58:35Z ski: rockstar_ : you're not handling all cases 2016-02-18T16:58:46Z ski: in particular, you have no base case 2016-02-18T16:59:15Z rockstar_: ski: I'm first trying to make it error free. But it throws error 2016-02-18T16:59:57Z ski: you need to check some condition, probably using `cond' or `if' 2016-02-18T17:00:26Z ski: it throws an error because you're not handling a base case 2016-02-18T17:03:20Z rockstar_: ski: oh how dumb of me, it's a recursive fn 2016-02-18T17:03:25Z Pixel_Outlaw quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-02-18T17:04:02Z magine-pc joined #scheme 2016-02-18T17:06:22Z ski: rockstar_ : unless the recursive call is somehow delayed ("guarded", it's sometimes called), a recursive procedure always needs a base case, unless you really intend it to keep running indefinitely (not that common) 2016-02-18T17:07:26Z rockstar_: yah thanks ski for pointing out 2016-02-18T17:07:29Z Riastradh quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-02-18T17:07:30Z rockstar_: ski it works now (define sum ( lambda (L) (if (null? L) 0 (+ (car L) (sum (cdr L) ) ) ) ) ) 2016-02-18T17:08:15Z ski: looks ok (though the formatting is strange) 2016-02-18T17:08:51Z ski: if you want to show larger snippets of code, you can use a paste site, like e.g. , and provide the paste link here 2016-02-18T17:11:15Z rockstar_: ski: yah just in hurry show 2016-02-18T17:12:28Z rockstar_: ski: How do I get average of each student's score if I have (define students '(("Student 1" (57 57 80 47 68 56 84 65 67 54)) ("Student 2" (57 69 57 84 87 71 77 69 61 48)))) 2016-02-18T17:12:42Z grublet joined #scheme 2016-02-18T17:13:02Z rockstar_: So output should be like (("Student 1" 63 1/2) ("Student 2" 68)) 2016-02-18T17:13:09Z rockstar_: Now I have sum function 2016-02-18T17:13:32Z rockstar_: How do I iterate over those each students, recursion again? 2016-02-18T17:15:59Z magine-pc quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-02-18T17:16:33Z ski: yes 2016-02-18T17:18:39Z ski: rudybot: eval (/ (my-sum-list (list 57 57 80 47 68 56 84 65 67 54)) 10) 2016-02-18T17:18:40Z rudybot: ski: ; Value: 127/2 2016-02-18T17:18:47Z ski: rudybot: eval (exact->inexact (/ (my-sum-list (list 57 57 80 47 68 56 84 65 67 54)) 10)) 2016-02-18T17:18:48Z rudybot: ski: ; Value: 63.5 2016-02-18T17:22:26Z rockstar_: ski: nice thanks ^^ 2016-02-18T17:22:35Z magine-pc joined #scheme 2016-02-18T17:23:28Z rockstar_: ski: got something like this now (define st1 '(57 57 80 47 68 56 84 65 67 54)); eval (/ (sum st1) (length st1)) 2016-02-18T17:24:10Z rockstar_: ski: how do I iterate over 2d list to find average for each 2016-02-18T17:25:45Z add^_ joined #scheme 2016-02-18T17:26:59Z ski: rockstar_ : use `car' and `cdr' to access the elements and the remainder of the lists 2016-02-18T17:28:04Z ski: so your procedure gets a list of some number (possibly zero) "student specifications", or whatever you like to call them 2016-02-18T17:28:46Z bb010g quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2016-02-18T17:28:58Z ski: each such "student specification" is a list, whose first element is the name (or description ?) of the student, and the second element is a list of scores (which you want to compute average for) 2016-02-18T17:29:46Z ski: so, for each such "student specification" element in the main list you want to compute a similar one in the result list, except that in place of the list of scores, you want to place the average score 2016-02-18T17:30:16Z rockstar_: ski: how can I place avg in place of list? 2016-02-18T17:31:12Z acarrico quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2016-02-18T17:31:48Z add^_ left #scheme 2016-02-18T17:33:50Z magine-pc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-02-18T17:34:36Z ski: rockstar_ : build a new list out of the desired head element, and the desired remainder list, using `cons' 2016-02-18T17:35:17Z magine-pc joined #scheme 2016-02-18T17:36:01Z ski: rudybot: eval (cons (list "Student 1" 127/2) (list (list "Student 2" 68) (list "Student 3" 61))) 2016-02-18T17:36:01Z rudybot: ski: ; Value: '(("Student 1" 127/2) ("Student 2" 68) ("Student 3" 61)) 2016-02-18T17:36:50Z ski: rudybot: eval (define student-with-average-score (list "Student 1" 127/2)) 2016-02-18T17:36:50Z rudybot: ski: Done. 2016-02-18T17:37:15Z ski: rudybot: eval (define remaining-students-with-average-scores (list (list "Student 2" 68) (list "Student 3" 61))) 2016-02-18T17:37:15Z rudybot: ski: Done. 2016-02-18T17:37:32Z ski: rudybot: eval (cons student-with-average-score remaining-students-with-average-scores) 2016-02-18T17:37:32Z rudybot: ski: ; Value: '(("Student 1" 127/2) ("Student 2" 68) ("Student 3" 61)) 2016-02-18T17:38:29Z ski: rockstar_ : if you've seen `let' yet, it might help (as in more clear code) to use it to name temporary results 2016-02-18T17:38:52Z ski: (alternatively, you may perhaps have seen "internal" `define's used for that) 2016-02-18T17:39:35Z ski: for the above example, using a `let' would have looked like (indented properly) : 2016-02-18T17:39:51Z ski: (let ((student-with-average-score (list "Student 1" 127/2)) 2016-02-18T17:40:13Z ski: (remaining-students-with-average-scores (list (list "Student 2" 68) (list "Student 3" 61)))) 2016-02-18T17:40:17Z nilg joined #scheme 2016-02-18T17:40:20Z ski: (cons student-with-average-score remaining-students-with-average-scores)) 2016-02-18T17:40:45Z rockstar_: ski: I'm lost sorry. Maybe we could share pastebin or something. 2016-02-18T17:41:12Z ski: (well, possibly breaking some of the long lines along the lines of ) 2016-02-18T17:41:13Z magine-pc quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-02-18T17:41:38Z ski: if you haven't seen `let' yet, then it probably doesn't matter 2016-02-18T17:41:42Z rjnw joined #scheme 2016-02-18T17:43:07Z rockstar_: eval (cons (list "Student 1" 127) (list (list "Student 2" 68) (list "Student 3" 61))) 2016-02-18T17:43:20Z rockstar_: eval (/ cons (list "Student 1" 127) (list (list "Student 2" 68) (list "Student 3" 61))) 2016-02-18T17:43:45Z bb010g joined #scheme 2016-02-18T17:43:56Z rockstar_: ski: so what is cons exactly doing here? 2016-02-18T17:44:32Z alexei_ joined #scheme 2016-02-18T17:44:58Z ski: `cons' constructs a new list, out of an element that will become the head element of the new list, and out of a list, which will be the list of the remaining elements of the new list 2016-02-18T17:45:12Z ski: rudybot: eval (cons 2 (list 3 5 7)) 2016-02-18T17:45:13Z rudybot: ski: ; Value: '(2 3 5 7) 2016-02-18T17:45:19Z ski: rudybot: eval (cons 2 '(3 5 7)) 2016-02-18T17:45:19Z rudybot: ski: ; Value: '(2 3 5 7) 2016-02-18T17:45:38Z ski: rudybot: eval (cons 2 (cons 3 (cons 5 (cons 7 '())))) 2016-02-18T17:45:39Z rudybot: ski: ; Value: '(2 3 5 7) 2016-02-18T17:45:58Z ski: rockstar_ : do you see how all those thre examples work ? 2016-02-18T17:46:02Z ski: s/thre/three/ 2016-02-18T17:47:04Z rockstar_: ski: I'm thinking you are taking head of the list and finding average of it then replacing it in high level. But I'm lost in the use of cons. I'm going through simple example of cons 2016-02-18T17:47:38Z magine-pc joined #scheme 2016-02-18T17:48:04Z ski: rockstar_ : perhaps you can first try to define a procedure `square-all', such that `(square-all (list 2 3 5 7))' will compute a list of the squares of all the numbers in the given list ? 2016-02-18T17:48:27Z rockstar_: ski: that is done, also did for average of a list 2016-02-18T17:48:27Z ski: that would be a simpler example of using `cons' (and `car',`cdr',...) 2016-02-18T17:48:32Z ski: ok 2016-02-18T17:49:43Z contrapunctus joined #scheme 2016-02-18T17:49:57Z rockstar_: ski: (cons (list 2 3) 1) == > ((2 3) . 1) 2016-02-18T17:50:07Z rockstar_: ski: is cons just appending elements into a list? 2016-02-18T17:54:39Z cemerick joined #scheme 2016-02-18T17:55:09Z nilg quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-02-18T17:56:27Z ski: rockstar_ : yes 2016-02-18T17:56:44Z ski: rudybot: eval (cons (list 2 3) (list 1 0)) 2016-02-18T17:56:44Z Shadox joined #scheme 2016-02-18T17:56:44Z rudybot: ski: ; Value: '((2 3) 1 0) 2016-02-18T17:56:50Z ski: rudybot: eval (append (list 2 3) (list 1 0)) 2016-02-18T17:56:50Z rudybot: ski: ; Value: '(2 3 1 0) 2016-02-18T17:57:24Z rockstar_: ski: I see 2016-02-18T17:57:36Z rockstar_: ski: it's extending, just like in python 2016-02-18T17:57:41Z ski: rockstar_ : the second argument to `cons' (and each arguments to `append') should be a list, otherwise you get an "improper list" (or an error) 2016-02-18T17:58:09Z ski: rudybot: eval (append 2 (list 1 0)) 2016-02-18T17:58:09Z rudybot: ski: error: append: contract violation expected: list? given: 2 2016-02-18T17:58:34Z rockstar_: ski: I guess I'm out of time. I got functions working somewhat. But I need to iterate over 2d list and find average and return a new list 2016-02-18T17:58:37Z ski: rudybot: eval (append (list 2 3) 1) 2016-02-18T17:58:37Z rudybot: ski: ; Value: '(2 3 . 1) 2016-02-18T17:59:06Z ski: the `.' in the result indicates something "funny" has happened. an improper list 2016-02-18T18:02:18Z rockstar_: ski: I don't understand one thing. Here's we are iterating through 2d list using recursion. How do you really maintain a new 2d list and pass along? 2016-02-18T18:02:49Z ski: "2d list" is just a list whose elements also happens to be lists 2016-02-18T18:03:20Z ski: your `sum' procedure will handle the inner lists of scores 2016-02-18T18:04:01Z ski: your "outer" prodecure will probably handle both the other list level, and each of the "student specifications" (as these are of a fixed length, and "heterogenous") 2016-02-18T18:06:35Z rockstar_: ski: is there other/better way to solve it using lambda? 2016-02-18T18:08:43Z ski: you could break it up more, if you wanted to, having a separate procedure for transforming each "specification" 2016-02-18T18:09:32Z ski: then your main procedure would be quite similar to `square-all', except that you call this other procedure on each element, instead of squaring it 2016-02-18T18:10:24Z contrapunctus left #scheme 2016-02-18T18:11:29Z leppie quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-02-18T18:12:57Z leppie joined #scheme 2016-02-18T18:16:39Z m1dnight_ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2016-02-18T18:18:16Z ogam joined #scheme 2016-02-18T18:22:13Z lambda-11235 joined #scheme 2016-02-18T18:23:45Z ogam quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-02-18T18:28:12Z daviid joined #scheme 2016-02-18T18:29:00Z rockstar_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-02-18T18:29:36Z m1dnight_ joined #scheme 2016-02-18T18:36:04Z magine-pc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-02-18T18:43:13Z jkraemer quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-02-18T18:43:54Z Riastradh joined #scheme 2016-02-18T18:47:11Z magine-pc joined #scheme 2016-02-18T18:47:16Z m1dnight_ quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.4-dev) 2016-02-18T18:49:39Z m1dnight_ joined #scheme 2016-02-18T18:55:04Z ogam joined #scheme 2016-02-18T18:55:40Z zadock joined #scheme 2016-02-18T18:56:22Z neoncontrails quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-02-18T18:56:42Z jkraemer joined #scheme 2016-02-18T18:56:49Z magine-pc quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-02-18T19:01:46Z joast quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2016-02-18T19:02:44Z joast joined #scheme 2016-02-18T19:09:02Z mastokley joined #scheme 2016-02-18T19:09:37Z magine-pc joined #scheme 2016-02-18T19:16:03Z zadock quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-02-18T19:19:33Z lritter quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-02-18T19:22:49Z Menche joined #scheme 2016-02-18T19:23:41Z mumptai joined #scheme 2016-02-18T19:29:29Z zadock joined #scheme 2016-02-18T19:33:03Z alexei_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-02-18T19:35:04Z alexei_ joined #scheme 2016-02-18T19:35:35Z neoncontrails joined #scheme 2016-02-18T19:38:59Z hiroakip joined #scheme 2016-02-18T19:40:33Z dxtr joined #scheme 2016-02-18T19:46:00Z kuribas quit (Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)) 2016-02-18T19:49:20Z rjnw quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2016-02-18T19:51:37Z ggole quit 2016-02-18T19:54:37Z magically: Hey everyone! :) Does this count as a recursive or an iterative process? (i.e. is it optimized to iteration?) https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/eH0tTu4R/ 2016-02-18T20:00:50Z acarrico joined #scheme 2016-02-18T20:02:43Z magine-pc quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2016-02-18T20:04:23Z ski: magically : recursive process 2016-02-18T20:06:21Z magically: Thanks ski :3 2016-02-18T20:06:58Z ski: magically : the recursive call isn't in a tail position 2016-02-18T20:08:46Z bb010g quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2016-02-18T20:08:54Z samth_ joined #scheme 2016-02-18T20:10:16Z alexei___ joined #scheme 2016-02-18T20:10:45Z magine-pc joined #scheme 2016-02-18T20:11:10Z petercom1and joined #scheme 2016-02-18T20:11:37Z finnrobi_ joined #scheme 2016-02-18T20:11:48Z crypto_ joined #scheme 2016-02-18T20:12:01Z lambda-11235 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-02-18T20:12:01Z cojy quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2016-02-18T20:12:02Z samth quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2016-02-18T20:12:02Z akkad quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2016-02-18T20:12:02Z petercommand quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2016-02-18T20:12:03Z davidh quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2016-02-18T20:12:03Z z0d quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2016-02-18T20:12:03Z lloda quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2016-02-18T20:12:03Z finnrobi quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2016-02-18T20:12:04Z alexei_ quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2016-02-18T20:12:05Z nitrix quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2016-02-18T20:12:07Z leot quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2016-02-18T20:12:08Z octo_ quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2016-02-18T20:12:08Z zbigniew quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2016-02-18T20:12:12Z cojy_ joined #scheme 2016-02-18T20:12:20Z zbigniew joined #scheme 2016-02-18T20:12:31Z samth_ is now known as samth 2016-02-18T20:12:34Z joast quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2016-02-18T20:13:04Z octo_ joined #scheme 2016-02-18T20:13:15Z Guest6991 joined #scheme 2016-02-18T20:13:20Z akkad joined #scheme 2016-02-18T20:14:30Z davidh joined #scheme 2016-02-18T20:16:38Z joast joined #scheme 2016-02-18T20:17:45Z magically: ski: So if the recursive call is in tail position it always gets optimized? 2016-02-18T20:18:32Z ski: it's not really an optimization, as it is mandated by the standard 2016-02-18T20:18:45Z ski: and it's not just recursive call, but all calls in tail position 2016-02-18T20:21:33Z magically: ski: Oh, cool! How does that work? Like are they unrolled? Is there some kind of paper or algorithm on how the unrolling is done? 2016-02-18T20:24:36Z gravicappa quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-02-18T20:26:53Z ski: magically : not sure what you mean by "unroll" ? 2016-02-18T20:27:04Z magically: ski: I mean like how does a tail call turn into iteration 2016-02-18T20:27:29Z magically: What algorithms are used to make the transformation? Is there anyway to see the code after the transformation? 2016-02-18T20:27:47Z ski: one common implementation (if using a stack to keep track of activation records / call frames) would be to reuse the current activation record on a tail call 2016-02-18T20:28:22Z magically: Hm 2016-02-18T20:29:20Z ski: another ("Cheney on the MTA", search for this paper by Henry Baker. used by Chicken) instead just never lets underlying C functions return, accumulating stack frames until the stack is full, at which point the stack is garbage-collected (and compacted), and then we just continue from there 2016-02-18T20:29:54Z ski: or you can allocate the activation records on a heap (and let GC deal with reclamation). iirc Scheme48 does this 2016-02-18T20:31:42Z Riastradh: ski: Almost. Scheme48 maintains a stack mostly normally, pushing and popping, but with explicit frame parent pointers so that some frames can be skipped for tail calls without overwriting them in place. If it overflows, the live stack frames are copied into the heap. 2016-02-18T20:31:54Z Riastradh: It's halfway between Cheney on the MTA and a typical stack. 2016-02-18T20:32:45Z ski: when calling a procedure, you can (warning, vague analogy) think of it as mailing a letter to someone else, providing an address to mail back the answer to. then a tail-call means that instead of providing a return address back to yourself, you directly provide *your* caller's address as the return address, so whoever you're mailing/calling can return their answer directly there 2016-02-18T20:33:16Z ski: Riastradh : ok 2016-02-18T20:34:00Z ski: magically : note that, under certain conditions, GCC can reuse the current stack frame 2016-02-18T20:34:17Z Opodeldoc joined #scheme 2016-02-18T20:34:24Z magically: Huh, fun! I'll look into that after finishing this assignment. 2016-02-18T20:34:48Z oleo joined #scheme 2016-02-18T20:34:48Z oleo quit (Changing host) 2016-02-18T20:34:48Z oleo joined #scheme 2016-02-18T20:35:23Z Riastradh: MIT Scheme, for another example, always overwrites the stack frame in place -- sometimes by doing the appropriate parallel assignment in place; sometimes by writing a new one, and then just memcpying it over the old one. 2016-02-18T20:37:01Z lambda-11235 joined #scheme 2016-02-18T20:44:30Z magine-pc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-02-18T20:50:40Z cojy_ is now known as cojy 2016-02-18T20:50:40Z magine-pc joined #scheme 2016-02-18T20:50:59Z neoncontrails quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-02-18T20:52:02Z AlexDenisov quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. 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Very basic data structure composed of two pointers. Lists traditionally in Lisps are composed of conses, where first cell of the cons is an element, while the second is the rest of the list (recurrential definition) 2016-02-19T08:55:42Z jusss: jackdaniel: (1 . 3) eq (1 (3))? 2016-02-19T08:58:06Z taylan: jusss: note, (1 (3)) is (1 . (3 . nil)) 2016-02-19T08:58:09Z taylan: nope* 2016-02-19T08:58:31Z taylan: err 2016-02-19T08:58:43Z taylan is confuzzled 2016-02-19T08:59:17Z taylan: correction: (1 (3)) is (1 . ((3 . nil) . nil)) 2016-02-19T08:59:31Z taylan: (1 3) is (1 . (3 . nil)) 2016-02-19T08:59:51Z taylan: (1 . 3) is just (1 . 3), and has no other representation 2016-02-19T09:01:47Z jusss: taylan: (1 . (3 5)) is? 2016-02-19T09:03:21Z taylan: that's the same as (1 3 5), and (1 . (3 . (5))), and (1 . (3 . (5 . nil))) 2016-02-19T09:06:59Z zhcy left #scheme 2016-02-19T09:07:11Z jusss: (list? (cons 1 2)) => #f 2016-02-19T09:07:16Z gravicappa joined #scheme 2016-02-19T09:08:07Z jusss: taylan: (listp (cons 1 2)) => T 2016-02-19T09:09:06Z jusss: confused 2016-02-19T09:09:22Z taylan: jusss: yes, Scheme's list? checks whether something is a "proper list", CL and Elisp's listp just check whether it's nil or a cons cell 2016-02-19T09:09:38Z taylan: jusss: by the way this whole time I thought we're in #emacs -_- whenever I typed nil, replace it with () 2016-02-19T09:10:41Z taylan: () is the empty list, a unique object. (1 . 2) is a pair. (1) is (1 . ()), so a pair but also a "proper list" because it ends with (). 2016-02-19T09:10:59Z jusss: taylan: ok, we can do it again in #emacs and #lisp 2016-02-19T09:11:10Z taylan: (1 . (2 . 3)) is an improper list. (1 2 3) is (1 . (2 . (3 . ()))) 2016-02-19T09:11:19Z jusss: they do have dot pair and list :) 2016-02-19T09:13:43Z jusss: #t #f T nil '() 2016-02-19T09:17:49Z jusss: taylan: list is different between cl and scheme? 2016-02-19T09:20:33Z taylan: jusss: both CL and Scheme have the notion of proper and improper lists, but Scheme's list? only returns #t for proper lists, whereas CL's listp returns #t for improper lists too, i.e. any cons cell. 2016-02-19T09:21:02Z taylan: (listp obj) is really just (or (null obj) (consp obj)) 2016-02-19T09:23:31Z jusss: IIRC empty list '() can be nil but not #f? 2016-02-19T09:25:17Z taylan: in Scheme, there is no nil. there's () and #f which are two separate objects. 2016-02-19T09:25:27Z taylan: there's the predicate null? which checks if an object is () 2016-02-19T09:25:36Z taylan: (null? obj) is basically (eq? obj '()) 2016-02-19T09:25:45Z C-Keen: jusss: one of the nice things in scheme is that #f is the only false value 2016-02-19T09:26:52Z jusss: taylan: so there's no false value in cl? 2016-02-19T09:27:29Z taylan: in CL, nil is false and the empty list 2016-02-19T09:28:09Z taylan: there's no dedicated false value like #f in CL 2016-02-19T09:32:21Z _sjs joined #scheme 2016-02-19T09:36:33Z _sjs quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-02-19T09:41:52Z rsully quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2016-02-19T09:41:54Z Guest10944 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-02-19T09:52:02Z jusss: can I say dot pair is two-element list? 2016-02-19T09:52:13Z jusss: I mean just two element 2016-02-19T09:52:20Z jusss: elements 2016-02-19T09:57:42Z taylan: jusss: not really. a "two element list" is something like (1 2), which is (1 . (2 . ())) 2016-02-19T09:58:37Z jusss: taylan: so dot pair is list or not? 2016-02-19T09:59:03Z jusss: (1 . (2 . (3 . '()))) is (1 2 3) 2016-02-19T10:03:49Z jusss: I try to ask in other channels :) 2016-02-19T10:04:52Z taylan: jusss: if the chain of pairs ends in (), then it's a proper list, otherwise it's an improper list 2016-02-19T10:05:05Z taylan: normally proper lists are expected 2016-02-19T10:05:20Z taylan: e.g. when you say "two element list", people will assume you mean a two-element proper list 2016-02-19T10:05:43Z jusss: improper list is list? sorry my English is not good, improper means incorrect? 2016-02-19T10:05:49Z jusss: or wrong list? 2016-02-19T10:05:58Z taylan: something like that... 2016-02-19T10:06:10Z taylan: Scheme's "list?" predicate returns #f for improper lists 2016-02-19T10:06:17Z taylan: CL's "listp" returns #t 2016-02-19T10:11:04Z C-Keen quit (Changing host) 2016-02-19T10:11:04Z C-Keen joined #scheme 2016-02-19T10:11:08Z stepnem joined #scheme 2016-02-19T10:12:45Z ASau quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-02-19T10:21:00Z _sjs joined #scheme 2016-02-19T10:25:14Z _sjs quit 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metaf5_ balkamos gabot Guest22888 snits_ copec ec\ askatasuna _chazu Saeren stamourv_ Guest88790 amoe igajsin2 mrowe amz31 alokbeni_ mach Riastradh neoncontrails tos-1 fantazo_ fiddlerwoaroof pierpa 2016-02-27T23:11:00Z names: karswell davexunit amgarching DGASAU neuri8 evhan ft rx80 ArneBab aap jkraemer tm512 niklasl dbohdan taylan nisstyre_ autogen_ cantstanya jackdaniel rsully antoszka carc abbe samw3 sytse samth m1dnight_ drdo kwmiebach cojy jyc pjbh ozzloy nmeum akkad vifino dxtr choas asumu jrslepak drforr1 greghendershott jrdnull ineiros harmchop ecraven Blkt haasn DerGuteMoritz LeoNerd r0kc4t defanor GGMethos moredhel eMBee Kryo juanfra nowhere_man_ fizzie 2016-02-27T23:13:20Z eli: ecraven: well, "usable" is a pretty low bar, so it's not saying much. That ffi looks kind of OK, except for two big problems. The first, which I'm not sure about, is that it looks like it's a static ffi, which means that you must (have and) run a compiler to make it work. On a linux this is not a big deal but on windows it's usually a deal breaker. 2016-02-27T23:14:21Z benaiah joined #scheme 2016-02-27T23:14:56Z eli: The other thing that I was hoping to see is the same treatment for callbacks and callouts: users don't need to know what exactly is happenning to make their code work, and a good system should make lambdas be lambdas no matter whether it's a C foreign function that got translated into something that looks like a lambda, or whether it's a real lambda that got translated into a C pointer so foreign code can call it. 2016-02-27T23:15:23Z eli: But it looked like in that system there is a difference which lamifies things. 2016-02-27T23:17:17Z cky joined #scheme 2016-02-27T23:17:34Z shardz joined #scheme 2016-02-27T23:17:45Z _z joined #scheme 2016-02-27T23:18:15Z twem2_ quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2016-02-27T23:22:15Z ohama joined #scheme 2016-02-27T23:26:09Z annodomini joined #scheme 2016-02-27T23:26:09Z annodomini quit (Changing host) 2016-02-27T23:26:09Z annodomini joined #scheme 2016-02-27T23:26:30Z twem2 joined #scheme 2016-02-27T23:26:53Z mlaine quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2016-02-27T23:32:27Z cjh` joined #scheme 2016-02-27T23:37:34Z ASau quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-02-27T23:38:09Z ASau joined #scheme 2016-02-27T23:38:22Z joast joined #scheme 2016-02-27T23:39:29Z mlaine joined #scheme 2016-02-27T23:42:22Z Riastradh quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-02-27T23:43:37Z fantazo_ quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-02-27T23:47:47Z ASau quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-02-27T23:49:31Z annodomini quit (Quit: annodomini) 2016-02-27T23:50:58Z chu_ is now known as chu 2016-02-27T23:53:12Z annodomini joined #scheme 2016-02-27T23:55:18Z annodomini quit (Client Quit) 2016-02-27T23:58:37Z rsully quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-02-27T23:59:08Z ASau joined #scheme 2016-02-28T00:00:48Z tos-1 quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-02-28T00:01:14Z sbwhitecap joined #scheme 2016-02-28T00:03:17Z Guest31272 quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2016-02-28T00:03:33Z vikraman joined #scheme 2016-02-28T00:04:19Z vikraman is now known as Guest22161 2016-02-28T00:04:31Z rsully joined #scheme 2016-02-28T00:07:00Z sbwhitecap quit (Quit: http://quassel-irc.org - Chat comfortably. 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ZZZzzz…) 2016-02-28T21:28:12Z fiddlerwoaroof quit (Quit: Gone.) 2016-02-28T21:29:06Z ASau quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-02-28T21:29:43Z drot quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.4) 2016-02-28T21:31:20Z Beluki joined #scheme 2016-02-28T21:33:11Z trough joined #scheme 2016-02-28T21:36:25Z ASau` is now known as ASau 2016-02-28T21:37:10Z AlexDenisov joined #scheme 2016-02-28T21:44:29Z nilg joined #scheme 2016-02-28T21:47:46Z Menche quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-02-28T22:14:05Z trough: I am interested in learning scheme, with the eventual hope of creating a 3-D rendering engine whose scenes will be described by the user in a text-based language (as in POV-Ray). I imagine that if you write a set of functions in scheme to create and render objects, then the user could just load these functions as a library, and then load in scheme files which use these functions? 2016-02-28T22:15:16Z Beluki: So a raytracer. 2016-02-28T22:15:46Z trough: not really a raytracer, I was imagining a vector-like result 2016-02-28T22:16:40Z Beluki: Would the output be just an image? 2016-02-28T22:16:47Z trough: yes 2016-02-28T22:17:16Z trough: or hopefully, many images for realtime animation 2016-02-28T22:18:19Z fiddlerwoaroof joined #scheme 2016-02-28T22:18:25Z Beluki: I think you'll have no problem, other than performance depending on your requirements. 2016-02-28T22:18:46Z pjb: trough: since lisp is good at nlp and ai, instaed of using pov-ray as language, why not let the user just say what he wants, and let the system infer what should be drawn? 2016-02-28T22:18:50Z Beluki: Procedures would be mostly math I guess. 2016-02-28T22:19:19Z pjb: "Draw me a sheep." 2016-02-28T22:19:24Z Beluki: Heh. 2016-02-28T22:19:35Z trough: a joke? 2016-02-28T22:19:41Z pjb: nope. 2016-02-28T22:19:47Z pjb: This is what they were doing in the 60s… 2016-02-28T22:19:58Z pjb: we've lost a lot. 2016-02-28T22:20:29Z Beluki: pjb: are you talking about Planner? 2016-02-28T22:21:17Z pjb: Yes, things like that. SHRDLU too. 2016-02-28T22:21:28Z trough: I was hoping that they could describe the scene in lisp-like syntax, with Constructive Solid Geometry. Rather than writing a parser for this language, I was hoping that by using scheme it would naturally be able to parse itself... I am having a hard time explaining my question because I am a novice. 2016-02-28T22:21:54Z Beluki: trough: no worries. 2016-02-28T22:22:27Z Beluki: I think it's a good use case for scheme (or any lisp for that matter). 2016-02-28T22:23:46Z fiddlerwoaroof quit (Changing host) 2016-02-28T22:23:46Z fiddlerwoaroof joined #scheme 2016-02-28T22:23:52Z Beluki: Write the renderer, load the the scenes using lisp notation too, output image. Sounds reasonable. 2016-02-28T22:24:20Z cdidd quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-02-28T22:28:45Z trough: Thank you Beluki, I may have another question later. 2016-02-28T22:31:44Z pjb quit (Quit: Good night!) 2016-02-28T22:37:26Z annodomini joined #scheme 2016-02-28T22:38:21Z AlexDenisov quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2016-02-28T22:44:00Z Beluki: I'm already going bed, so if you got to ask... 2016-02-28T22:48:04Z Shadox joined #scheme 2016-02-28T22:51:00Z Beluki: night! 2016-02-28T22:51:07Z Beluki quit (Quit: Beluki) 2016-02-28T22:51:35Z wasamasa: trough: using scheme syntax will help greatly, but you'd still need to make sense of the data (unless it's verbatim code) 2016-02-28T22:55:32Z cjh`_ is now known as cjh` 2016-02-28T23:01:52Z tos-1 quit (Quit: leaving) 2016-02-28T23:04:52Z cdidd joined #scheme 2016-02-28T23:05:05Z civodul quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 24.5.1)) 2016-02-28T23:11:34Z nilg quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-02-28T23:15:11Z lambda-11235 joined #scheme 2016-02-28T23:15:12Z alexei_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-02-28T23:16:58Z mokuso_ joined #scheme 2016-02-28T23:19:24Z mokuso quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2016-02-28T23:20:01Z mmos quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2016-02-28T23:24:20Z trough: wasamasa: I was hoping it could be verbatim code, but it should be limited to a sandbox so that loading a scene description can't format your hard drive. 2016-02-28T23:24:48Z wasamasa: hmk 2016-02-28T23:25:07Z wasamasa: perhaps you'd be interested in defining a DSL then? 2016-02-28T23:25:18Z trough: hmm I'll look it up. 2016-02-28T23:28:29Z wasamasa: or you'll go for the classic sandboxing technique of just allowing a more limited vocabulary than usual 2016-02-28T23:29:59Z trough: alright, I think I will need to get further into programming before I understand which one of those I want to do. 2016-02-28T23:36:37Z trough: I'm not sure which implementation to get started with. I'd like to be able to write in scheme, and then handcode parts in C when I want it to be faster, or write mainly in C and use scheme when I want to do something higher-level. Which implementations would be good for this? I looked at Guile, but I'm not sure that is really intended for this purpose. 2016-02-28T23:37:14Z wasamasa: I suspect guile is good for the latter 2016-02-28T23:37:23Z wasamasa: for the former, CHICKEN or gambit 2016-02-28T23:37:50Z trough: ah, so they are not good for each other's categories? 2016-02-28T23:38:14Z trough: thanks for clearing that up. 2016-02-28T23:38:14Z wasamasa: well, you can use them for the others, I just haven't seen them advertise that :P 2016-02-28T23:38:47Z trough: I was confused by Guile's description, before you said that. 2016-02-28T23:39:07Z wasamasa: yeah, guile's introduction could use some work 2016-02-28T23:39:41Z trough: kind of... beGUILEing 2016-02-28T23:39:55Z mumptai quit (Quit: Verlassend) 2016-02-28T23:40:00Z wasamasa: I use CHICKEN, though for its community, the amount of libraries for it and how simple C interop is 2016-02-28T23:41:22Z Menche joined #scheme 2016-02-28T23:41:35Z trough: thanks, that is sounding like a good fit. 2016-02-28T23:42:00Z wasamasa: haven't made use of it for things like speeding up critical code paths, just to interface to C libraries 2016-02-28T23:42:11Z wasamasa: neither the case of embedding it in C code 2016-02-28T23:43:37Z wasamasa: funnily enough, I know someone on their channel who wrote a raytracer for fun... 2016-02-28T23:44:01Z trough: hah that is good news 2016-02-28T23:45:05Z wasamasa: and later rewrote it in a scheme->assembly thing 2016-02-28T23:45:50Z trough: that sounds like a drastic reduction 2016-02-28T23:46:43Z wasamasa: well, you still write it in scheme, just a more restricted way 2016-02-28T23:47:11Z trough: oh, it is automatic scheme->assembly compiler? 2016-02-28T23:47:23Z wasamasa: yup, same author 2016-02-28T23:49:09Z wasamasa: CHICKEN is a scheme->c compiler 2016-02-28T23:52:28Z trough: I saw that Gambit was the same. I am not sure I understand the advantage of that, besides that it probably would interface well with C, but I read that CHICKEN and Gambit make fairly efficient code. 2016-02-28T23:54:46Z trough: Why is it faster than scheme->native compilers? 2016-02-28T23:54:56Z wasamasa: it isn't 2016-02-28T23:55:13Z wasamasa: I'd reckon the approach is simply more attractive 2016-02-28T23:55:25Z trough: faster as in, generating faster binaries, not compile time 2016-02-28T23:56:02Z wasamasa: the output is compiled by very good C compilers, the results can be run on loads of platforms and generation of C is simpler than generation of native code 2016-02-28T23:56:15Z wasamasa: plus you getting interop for free 2016-02-28T23:57:03Z wasamasa: these days you'd probably reuse something like llvm or whatever other code generating library works for you 2016-02-28T23:57:42Z wasamasa: or you'd go the slightly more boring route and reuse some other runtime or write a bytecode interpreter 2016-02-28T23:57:54Z karswell` quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-02-29T00:00:39Z trough: I do not understand; in what case would you use llvm? 2016-02-29T00:00:51Z wasamasa: if you don't want to do code generation yourself 2016-02-29T00:02:49Z trough: you mean if you were writing a scheme compiler? 2016-02-29T00:03:13Z wasamasa: yes 2016-02-29T00:03:27Z trough: ah okay. 2016-02-29T00:04:47Z trough: no one has made a scheme->LLVM compiler yet? 2016-02-29T00:05:16Z wasamasa: I bet there are a few toy ones, just nothing mature/well-known 2016-02-29T00:06:44Z trough: just to be sure: you say that scheme->native does generate faster code than scheme->C? 2016-02-29T00:07:00Z wasamasa: I didn't state that 2016-02-29T00:07:04Z sondr3 joined #scheme 2016-02-29T00:07:23Z trough: oh, I misunderstand you again 2016-02-29T00:07:52Z wasamasa: generally it's hard to make that kind of statement, especially if you're not in the compiler business :P 2016-02-29T00:08:31Z trough: if scheme->C provides the advantages you say, then what is the advantage of scheme->native? 2016-02-29T00:08:55Z Menche: scheme->llvm would be able to take advantage of llvm's code optimizers 2016-02-29T00:09:33Z Menche: well, and scheme->C as well 2016-02-29T00:09:51Z wasamasa: trough: I'd assume llvm allows you to express certain scheme constructs better than C 2016-02-29T00:10:12Z trough: ah I think I am understanding you now! 2016-02-29T00:13:23Z trough: even in the case of scheme->native, you would want something like LLVM in the place of C. I am reading on "Intermediate Representation" 2016-02-29T00:13:52Z wasamasa: yup 2016-02-29T00:13:55Z trough: sorry, I am quite a novice 2016-02-29T00:15:52Z wasamasa: night 2016-02-29T00:17:34Z annodomini quit (Quit: annodomini) 2016-02-29T00:18:16Z trough: night 2016-02-29T00:18:31Z trough: and thank you for your help! 2016-02-29T00:19:28Z annodomini joined #scheme 2016-02-29T00:34:42Z mastokley joined #scheme 2016-02-29T00:49:08Z dmiles_afk joined #scheme 2016-02-29T00:49:22Z dmiles_afk quit (Excess Flood) 2016-02-29T00:49:43Z dmiles_afk joined #scheme 2016-02-29T00:50:37Z Niac joined #scheme 2016-02-29T00:50:52Z dmiles quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-02-29T00:54:50Z zhcy joined #scheme 2016-02-29T01:09:44Z Niac quit (Quit: leaving) 2016-02-29T01:10:11Z Niac joined #scheme 2016-02-29T01:13:36Z githogori joined #scheme 2016-02-29T01:26:18Z lritter quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-02-29T01:27:59Z trough quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-02-29T01:30:18Z trough joined #scheme 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ZZZzzz…) 2016-02-29T17:04:52Z davexunit: probably better off writing your own compiler than relying on things that are more suited to languages like C. 2016-02-29T17:05:24Z civodul quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-02-29T17:07:47Z magine-pc quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2016-02-29T17:09:39Z trough joined #scheme 2016-02-29T17:11:28Z jcmdln quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-02-29T17:11:31Z acarrico joined #scheme 2016-02-29T17:13:43Z jackdaniel: how to close variable over toplevel function definition? 2016-02-29T17:14:02Z jackdaniel: when I do (let ([x 2]) (define (bah) …)) guile complains 2016-02-29T17:14:05Z LeoNerd: (define) it at the toplevel before the functions ? 2016-02-29T17:14:24Z magine-pc joined #scheme 2016-02-29T17:14:36Z jackdaniel: but then it will be visible for all the functions 2016-02-29T17:15:07Z LeoNerd: Yes. 2016-02-29T17:15:28Z LeoNerd: You can't make a scope containing that variable, then define multiple closures inside it, then let them all punch through that scope and leak to toplevel 2016-02-29T17:15:40Z LeoNerd: Well, language extensions like (define-values) might be able to let you 2016-02-29T17:15:44Z pchrist quit (Quit: leaving) 2016-02-29T17:16:15Z jackdaniel: does scheme forbids doing such things? (I'm new to scheme) 2016-02-29T17:16:29Z pchrist joined #scheme 2016-02-29T17:16:33Z jackdaniel: or, scheme is new to me :-) 2016-02-29T17:16:47Z LeoNerd: It doesn't *forbid* it.. It's more that such an ability isn't provided 2016-02-29T17:16:50Z davexunit: jackdaniel: I think you may want "let over lambda" 2016-02-29T17:16:58Z LeoNerd: If you define new names, you're defining them within some scope 2016-02-29T17:17:07Z davexunit: (define foo (let ((x 7)) (lambda (y) (+ x y)))) 2016-02-29T17:17:22Z LeoNerd: That only lets you create -one- function 2016-02-29T17:17:39Z jackdaniel: that's what I was searching for 2016-02-29T17:17:43Z leot joined #scheme 2016-02-29T17:17:47Z LeoNerd: Ohwait I might have missed that part - did you want the variable shared by multiple functions? 2016-02-29T17:17:47Z jackdaniel: thank you both 2016-02-29T17:17:52Z LeoNerd: If it's just one, you can use l/l indeed 2016-02-29T17:18:00Z jackdaniel: yes, that's what I was after 2016-02-29T17:18:08Z LeoNerd: For multiple, you'd have to use define-values and so on.. much complex 2016-02-29T17:19:05Z LeoNerd: Though beware that the traditional l/l format above doesn't allow self-recursion like a "normal" toplevel (define) does 2016-02-29T17:19:11Z magine-pc quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2016-02-29T17:19:57Z jackdaniel: I should use letrec in that case? 2016-02-29T17:20:15Z LeoNerd: If you need that ability. If you don't then it's just unnecessary noise 2016-02-29T17:20:26Z jackdaniel: I need it 2016-02-29T17:20:30Z davexunit: sounds like y'all are complicating a simple problem. 2016-02-29T17:20:51Z jackdaniel: (define foo (let ((x 3)) (letrec ((y (lambda () …)) y)) 2016-02-29T17:21:55Z davexunit: (define foo (let ((x 3)) (define (bar y) ...) bar)) 2016-02-29T17:22:11Z LeoNerd: Ohyes.. inner defines work too 2016-02-29T17:22:12Z davexunit: err 2016-02-29T17:22:14Z LeoNerd curses r5 2016-02-29T17:22:17Z davexunit: no, not even needed! 2016-02-29T17:22:25Z davexunit: foo is bound to the lambda 2016-02-29T17:22:25Z LeoNerd: Damnyou... defining the semantics of letrec* without actually naming it such :P 2016-02-29T17:22:50Z davexunit: (define foo (let ((x 3)) (lambda (y) ... (foo something) ...))) 2016-02-29T17:22:54Z LeoNerd: Hm.. ohyes... actually yes that's probably fine 2016-02-29T17:23:18Z davexunit: keep it simple, folks. 2016-02-29T17:23:39Z LeoNerd: (define-what-I-mean ...) 2016-02-29T17:24:49Z magine-pc joined #scheme 2016-02-29T17:25:38Z jackdaniel: davexunit: the second solution isn't what I want 2016-02-29T17:25:47Z ggole: "You can't make a scope containing that variable, then define multiple closures inside it, then let them all punch through that scope and leak to toplevel" 2016-02-29T17:25:53Z jackdaniel: it creates new variable and new x shadows the old one 2016-02-29T17:26:01Z ggole: You can return them as a list and do whatever you want with the contents, so the *values* can indeed escape 2016-02-29T17:26:29Z jackdaniel: davexunit: I want to preserve x between calls 2016-02-29T17:29:31Z wasamasa: ecraven: shame 2016-02-29T17:29:40Z magine-pc quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2016-02-29T17:30:24Z wasamasa: ecraven: I suspected that to be the case, given the lack of enthusiasm of people who could make use of it for their interpreters :D 2016-02-29T17:32:14Z jackdaniel: OK, I have it (solution with letrec does exactly what I wanted to achieve). thanks (and yes, I probably overcomplicate things, I'm currently trying to get some grasp of scheme) 2016-02-29T17:34:02Z alexei_ joined #scheme 2016-02-29T17:35:36Z magine-pc joined #scheme 2016-02-29T17:37:42Z leppie quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-02-29T17:38:49Z bb010g quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2016-02-29T17:39:05Z davexunit: jackdaniel: if you're trying to grasp scheme still, I am willing to bet that letrec is not what you want to be using. 2016-02-29T17:39:35Z jackdaniel: davexunit: what I really would like to use is a dynamic variable ^_^ 2016-02-29T17:40:03Z davexunit: what do you mean? 2016-02-29T17:40:03Z magine-pc quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2016-02-29T17:40:09Z LeoNerd: Do you mean fluid-let ? 2016-02-29T17:40:14Z davexunit: you say you want the value of x preserved between calls 2016-02-29T17:40:16Z davexunit: but it already is 2016-02-29T17:40:19Z davexunit: with 'let' 2016-02-29T17:40:21Z jackdaniel isn't familiar with fluid-let 2016-02-29T17:40:36Z sethalves joined #scheme 2016-02-29T17:40:36Z davexunit: you probably don't need that, either. 2016-02-29T17:40:39Z davexunit: but we'll see. 2016-02-29T17:41:07Z davexunit: explain what "dynamic variable" means to you 2016-02-29T17:41:42Z jackdaniel: give me a sec, I'll describe my problem in a paste :) 2016-02-29T17:42:48Z leppie joined #scheme 2016-02-29T17:44:24Z jackdaniel: http://paste.lisp.org/display/308553 2016-02-29T17:45:06Z LeoNerd: So yes, a fluid-let 2016-02-29T17:45:12Z LeoNerd: You want what perl calls 'local' 2016-02-29T17:45:24Z badkins joined #scheme 2016-02-29T17:45:36Z jackdaniel: oh, didn't know that (I don't know perl well) 2016-02-29T17:45:45Z ecraven: wasamasa: it seems all implementors of "dynamic" languages have a long list of "nice-to-haves" for llvm, with not much being implemented 2016-02-29T17:45:59Z davidh quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-02-29T17:46:04Z davexunit: the example code is confusing. 2016-02-29T17:46:06Z jackdaniel: LeoNerd: is fluid-let part of the scheme standard? 2016-02-29T17:46:13Z jackdaniel: davexunit: why? 2016-02-29T17:46:21Z LeoNerd: No.. it's a Racket thing I believe 2016-02-29T17:46:24Z davexunit: jackdaniel: if you are using Guile, you'll want to use "parameters" if you're after dynamic scoping. 2016-02-29T17:46:27Z magine-pc joined #scheme 2016-02-29T17:46:32Z LeoNerd: Ohyes, or "parameters" 2016-02-29T17:46:41Z LeoNerd: Plain r5rs can do it with 'dynamic-wind' 2016-02-29T17:46:48Z wasamasa: fortunately guile isn't the only thing with parameters 2016-02-29T17:47:03Z LeoNerd: But using dynamic-wind for this is a bit overkill; what you have is clearly a 'fluid-let'-shaped problem 2016-02-29T17:47:11Z ecraven: regarding parameters, is it really such a good idea to have one function overloaded for getting and setting? 2016-02-29T17:47:12Z davexunit: wasamasa: jackdaniel said above that they are using guile. 2016-02-29T17:48:21Z davexunit: why the negative tone? "fortunately" 2016-02-29T17:48:56Z wasamasa: oh, I've missed that 2016-02-29T17:49:00Z jackdaniel: davexunit: do you mean this http://stackoverflow.com/questions/2304481/parameter-passing-in-scheme ? (box someting) (unbox something) ? 2016-02-29T17:49:24Z davexunit: jackdaniel: guile's manual has a section about parameters, so look there. 2016-02-29T17:49:31Z jackdaniel: (first thing which comes in dgg when typed "scheme parameters" 2016-02-29T17:49:35Z jackdaniel: oh, OK 2016-02-29T17:49:39Z davexunit: stackoverflow isn't the place to go hunting first. 2016-02-29T17:49:50Z LeoNerd: Hah! 2016-02-29T17:49:55Z ecraven: r7rs, page 19, 4.2.6 Dynamic Bindings 2016-02-29T17:50:16Z ecraven: especially `make-parameter' and `parameterize' 2016-02-29T17:51:41Z jackdaniel is reading 2016-02-29T17:51:42Z ecraven: is there an HTML version of R7RS for easy linking? 2016-02-29T17:51:45Z magine-pc quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-02-29T17:51:47Z jackdaniel: I've found pdf version 2016-02-29T17:51:53Z jackdaniel: from here http://trac.sacrideo.us/wg/wiki/R7RSHomePage 2016-02-29T17:52:02Z ecraven: PDF and latex sources I know, but HTML? 2016-02-29T17:52:43Z ecraven: Someone™ should make a nicely searchable and indexed one :) 2016-02-29T17:53:23Z davexunit: jackdaniel: you should really read the Guile manual for this. Guile does not implement R7RS. 2016-02-29T17:54:34Z ecraven: https://www.gnu.org/software/guile/manual/html_node/Parameters.html looks like parameters are the same as in R7RS 2016-02-29T17:55:14Z davexunit: okay. so we got lucky this time. 2016-02-29T17:55:40Z davexunit: but in general the rule applies: consult Guile's manual first. 2016-02-29T17:55:59Z jackdaniel: OK, will keep this in mind 2016-02-29T17:57:25Z magine-pc joined #scheme 2016-02-29T17:59:24Z ecraven: I think guile is fairly close to R7RS (with a lot of extensions obviously) 2016-02-29T18:01:30Z leot quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-02-29T18:02:21Z magine-pc quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2016-02-29T18:13:14Z John[Lisbeth]: SICP WOOT 2016-02-29T18:13:30Z John[Lisbeth]: the emacs version is extra fun 2016-02-29T18:14:59Z Riastradh quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2016-02-29T18:18:26Z magine-pc joined #scheme 2016-02-29T18:20:59Z oleo joined #scheme 2016-02-29T18:22:02Z trough quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 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