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2016-01-02T07:39:23Z pjb: Necrosporus: there probably exists something similar to http://www.cheat-sheets.org/saved-copy/clqr-a4-consec.pdf  for scheme.
2016-01-02T07:39:51Z pjb: for example https://irywoh.files.wordpress.com/2015/07/scheme-cheat-sheet-pdf.pdf
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2016-01-02T07:47:21Z Necrosporus: pjb, a bad example
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2016-01-02T07:47:50Z Necrosporus: some spam infested link
2016-01-02T07:49:57Z pjb: look on http://schemers.org there may be good links there.
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2016-01-02T14:54:03Z jusss: hi there, (string->symbol "12") => a symbol 12, and how I can get a integer 12?
2016-01-02T14:54:37Z jusss: I mean how to know a string is a integer or not
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2016-01-02T15:06:48Z jusss: is there a procedure can decide a string is integer or not ?
2016-01-02T15:06:55Z jusss: like "12"
2016-01-02T15:09:01Z pierpa: (integer? (string->number
2016-01-02T15:13:36Z jusss: pierpa: what if to decide a string is number or not ?
2016-01-02T15:13:41Z wasamasa: jusss: you'd ideally not get into that situation in the first place
2016-01-02T15:13:49Z wasamasa: jusss: string->integer returns #f in case it cannot decode a number though
2016-01-02T15:16:12Z pierpa: string->number
2016-01-02T15:16:19Z wasamasa: jusss: also, a string is not a number, otherwise it wouldn't be a string
2016-01-02T15:16:37Z wasamasa: jusss: a string can contain a sequence of characters that can be interpreted as a number though
2016-01-02T15:16:49Z wasamasa: jusss: the #f string->number returns informs you that this is not the case
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2016-01-02T15:19:28Z jusss: wasamasa: I know what string is, like this "12" it's a string, ok, but human can know it's integer 12, but machine can't, I'd like to make machine know it's a number
2016-01-02T15:19:45Z jusss: like "abc" it's a string, and it's not a number
2016-01-02T15:20:16Z jusss: "12.13" is a string, but it also means a number to human
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2016-01-02T15:25:06Z pierpa: these are called "numerals"
2016-01-02T15:25:24Z jusss: how to decide a string it means number to human ?
2016-01-02T15:25:50Z pierpa: you check it against a grammar for numerals
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2016-01-02T15:26:45Z pjb: jusss: \12 (or |12|) and 12 are two different things ;-)
2016-01-02T15:27:25Z pjb: jusss: is "twelve" an integer? How can a _string_ "be" an integer???
2016-01-02T15:28:10Z pjb: jusss: what about "deadbeef"? Is it an integer?
2016-01-02T15:28:43Z pjb: jusss: what about "\"12\""?
2016-01-02T15:29:01Z pjb: jusss: what about "(+ 2 3)"? Why or why not?
2016-01-02T15:29:23Z pjb: jusss: what about "π"?
2016-01-02T15:29:26Z jusss: pjb: I'm doing this "(+ 2 3)" right now ...
2016-01-02T15:29:41Z pjb: jusss: Seriously, try to answer those questions.
2016-01-02T15:29:42Z jusss: pjb: turn "(+ 2 3)" to (+ 2 3)
2016-01-02T15:29:57Z jusss: it sounds I'm on a wrong way
2016-01-02T15:30:02Z pjb: Yep.
2016-01-02T15:30:21Z pjb: You are confusing objects, such as an integer, with a representation of those objects.
2016-01-02T15:30:43Z pjb: What integer does "12" represent?  It could be 42; it could be 3.
2016-01-02T15:30:58Z pjb: The question is what representation system it is?
2016-01-02T15:47:22Z jusss: pjb: I think I find a way to do that, like numbers in lisp are like 0-9 1.2 3/4 , I can turn a string to characters, and compare them with 0 1 - . / this characters, if there's one not match, I can know it can't mean number to me
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2016-01-02T15:48:06Z jusss: all the symbols of numbers , compare them with characters of strings
2016-01-02T15:49:17Z wasamasa: you should learn to read the backlog, the solution was mentioned four times
2016-01-02T15:50:31Z pjb: jusss: what about "#xdeadbeef" or "#b010101101110" ?
2016-01-02T15:54:47Z jusss: pjb: the first parameter of define, how define to detective it's number or not ?
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2016-01-02T20:37:29Z maguire: hi guys, at the risk of sounding like an idiot - when i create say a combination like this in the edwin interpreter (define num 10), i can only get the value of it by typing something like (+ num) and hitting control + z..... but in the tutorial it says just type the variable name i.e. z, am i missing something here, am i supposed to create a scm file and put this code into it then run the file
2016-01-02T20:37:29Z maguire: through the interpreter
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2016-01-02T20:38:19Z maguire: when i type z it just says... value: z
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2016-01-02T20:55:50Z pjb: maguire: I type C-x C-e and it works nicely (in the *scratch* buffer).
2016-01-02T20:56:20Z pjb: (define num 10) C-x C-e num C-x C-e
2016-01-02T21:01:37Z maguire: nice that worked, where did u get those commands, when i tried runnin the tutorial inside scheme it says it's corrupted
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2016-01-02T21:30:19Z pjb: maguire: edwin is an emacs clone. I know emacs.
2016-01-02T21:31:03Z pjb: maguire: you can use M-x apropos RET eval RET to find all the commands containing "eval" in their name.
2016-01-02T21:31:23Z pjb: In the list you can see eval-last-sexp bound to C-x C-e.
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2016-01-02T21:36:23Z pjb: M-x apropos-command RET eval RET only gives the command. M-x apropos may also return variables and functions.
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2016-01-02T22:18:41Z maguire: so with MIT scheme as it turns out i could not view the tutorial in the first place because either the version i downloaded was bugged with windows 7, or something to with having a space in program files, and it also meant i could not read or edit files too. in any case i downloaded version 9.0 and changed the default directory to make sure there is no spaces, now i can finally view the tutorial,
2016-01-02T22:18:42Z maguire: thanks for gettin back to me pjb, now i'm off to do some experimenting with some code then i shall get started with page 1 on SICP as i've already watched lecture 1:)
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2016-01-03T05:29:45Z jarsherine: hi everyone
2016-01-03T05:29:50Z jarsherine: good morning!
2016-01-03T05:30:15Z jarsherine: I was wondering if anyone codes in scheme professionally
2016-01-03T05:30:18Z jarsherine: does that exist
2016-01-03T05:31:00Z jarsherine: or not
2016-01-03T05:38:50Z jarsherine: good chat
2016-01-03T05:38:55Z jarsherine: ok, later everyone
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2016-01-03T09:07:50Z Necrosporus: https://www.taoeffect.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2009/12/newLISP-in-a-nutshell2.gif
2016-01-03T09:07:51Z rudybot: http://teensy.info/vMu0cR7vY6
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2016-01-03T11:30:03Z Necrosporus: Lisp has some exceptions when evaluating stuff, for example in (define foo (+ 2 5)) foo is not evaluated but define and (+ 2 5) are. Why not to make a dialect of lisp without such exceptions at all? For example, { } do not evaluate anything in them, [ ] evaluate only first word and ( ) evaluate everything. Symbols are evaluate unless preceded with quote.
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2016-01-03T11:30:37Z Necrosporus: {define foo (+ 2 5)} returns (define foo (+ 2 5))
2016-01-03T11:31:08Z Necrosporus: [define foo (+ 2 5)] makes foo contain list (+ 2 5)
2016-01-03T11:31:43Z Necrosporus: (define 'foo (+ 2 5)) works same way as (define foo (+ 2 5)) in regular scheme
2016-01-03T11:31:50Z ogam: Necrosporus: Don't make us lose our time! Implement it yourself! It's trivial in CL with reader macros.  In CL, [] and {} are even RESERVED for YOU to do such things!
2016-01-03T11:32:32Z Necrosporus: I'm just expressing this idea wondering if there's a lisp with a similar convention already
2016-01-03T11:32:51Z ogam: Yes, LISP 1.  Welcome back to the 50s.
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2016-01-03T11:57:07Z ggole: Necrosporus: uh, isn't that pretty much quote?
2016-01-03T11:57:46Z ogam: The problem is not that, it's when you want to have a function given a symbol, access a lexical variable named by the symbol (in what scope???).
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2016-01-03T12:00:51Z Necrosporus: ggole, the idea is to get rid of distinction between special forms and functions
2016-01-03T12:01:17Z Necrosporus: Make everything functions and use special braces for quoting (or just use quoting)
2016-01-03T12:02:03Z ggole: That doesn't work unless you make drastic changes to the language
2016-01-03T12:02:04Z wasamasa: let's go back in time and use fexprs for everything
2016-01-03T12:02:12Z ggole: Variables and symbols being quite different things.
2016-01-03T12:11:40Z ogam: and forgo lexical scope.
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2016-01-03T14:42:16Z jusss: what if there's " " in string it will ?
2016-01-03T14:42:32Z jusss: "a b "c d" e f"
2016-01-03T14:43:19Z jusss: python have ' " " ' to solve that
2016-01-03T14:43:26Z jusss: " ' ' "
2016-01-03T14:44:05Z wasamasa: escaping characters is a thing
2016-01-03T14:44:21Z jusss: wasamasa: #\" ?
2016-01-03T14:44:50Z wasamasa: rudybot: eval "foo \"bar\" baz"
2016-01-03T14:44:52Z rudybot: wasamasa: your sandbox is ready
2016-01-03T14:44:52Z rudybot: wasamasa: ; Value: "foo \"bar\" baz"
2016-01-03T14:45:02Z wasamasa: hm
2016-01-03T14:45:22Z wasamasa: rudybot: eval (display "foo \"bar\" baz")
2016-01-03T14:45:22Z rudybot: wasamasa: ; stdout: "foo \"bar\" baz"
2016-01-03T14:45:33Z wasamasa shrugs
2016-01-03T14:45:36Z jusss: (eval ...) ?
2016-01-03T14:45:46Z wasamasa stares blankly at jusss 
2016-01-03T14:51:04Z jusss: wasamasa: and how to escape ( ?
2016-01-03T14:51:28Z wasamasa: I don't even
2016-01-03T14:52:05Z jusss: display a(b
2016-01-03T14:52:27Z wasamasa: you are misunderstanding a few things
2016-01-03T14:52:36Z wasamasa: don't mind me playing around with the bot
2016-01-03T14:52:49Z wasamasa: a string can contain parentheses and quotes and whatever else just fine
2016-01-03T14:54:11Z wasamasa: it's just in the case of a double-quote that you escape if with a backslash
2016-01-03T14:54:12Z jusss: " " make a string, ( ) make a list and what else ?
2016-01-03T14:54:41Z jusss: if there's " in a string and ( in a list then what ?
2016-01-03T14:54:51Z wasamasa: http://www.schemers.org/Documents/Standards/R5RS/HTML/
2016-01-03T14:55:19Z wasamasa: or to be more precise, http://www.schemers.org/Documents/Standards/R5RS/HTML/r5rs-Z-H-10.html#%_sec_7.1.1
2016-01-03T14:55:19Z rudybot: http://teensy.info/RJf7Xqaqc1
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2016-01-03T15:16:13Z jusss: I have to say it's not easy to understand for me now
2016-01-03T15:18:03Z pjb: jusss: it's a general question. You have to distinguish the essence of the objects from their representation.
2016-01-03T15:18:28Z pjb: A string that contains a double quote is merely a string where one of the character is a double quote.
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2016-01-03T15:19:20Z pjb: The syntax of the representation of a literal string containing a double quote, obviously depends on the language.  In scheme, you merely escape the double quote, inside the literal string. The escape character is the classical backslash.
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2016-01-03T15:19:45Z pjb: jusss: the problem is that you haven't read r5rs. It's only fifty pages, and it explains all that.
2016-01-03T15:20:28Z pjb: jusss: http://www.schemers.org/Documents/Standards/R5RS/HTML/r5rs-Z-H-5.html#%_sec_2.3
2016-01-03T15:20:28Z rudybot: http://teensy.info/vkJp5qAzUS
2016-01-03T15:21:37Z pjb: jusss: ( is not lisp syntax. ( represents nothing in lisp.  Therefore you cannot have a ( in a list.  This is meaningless.
2016-01-03T15:23:09Z jusss: pjb: my english is not good, can you explain what "literal" means ?
2016-01-03T15:23:19Z pjb: jusss: you can have a character: #\( ; you can have a string containing #\( : "(".  You can have a symbol whose name contains a #\( : |(| (but notice, this is an extension, it's not specified by r5rs).  You can have a vector containing a #\( character or a |(| symbol or a "(": string #(#\( |(| "(").
2016-01-03T15:23:44Z pjb: jusss: literal is the object that is written textually = literally in the program source.
2016-01-03T15:24:37Z pjb: jusss: (let ((string (make-string 3 #\x))) string) ; <- here, string is a variable bound to a string, but there's no literal string.
2016-01-03T15:25:28Z pjb: jusss: (let ((string "xxx")) string) ; <- here, string is a variable bound to a literal string: a literal representation of the literal string itself is written in the text of the program: "xxx" is the representation of the literal string.
2016-01-03T15:25:52Z pjb: jusss: notice that in both cases, both strings are string-equal.  But the first is a mutable string, while literal objects are immutable.
2016-01-03T15:26:37Z pjb: 42 ; <- a literal integer.  (* 2 24) returns the same integer, but not a literal one.  However, since no integer is mutable, it doesn't make a difference.
2016-01-03T15:26:53Z pjb: '(a b c) returns the literal list represented by (a b c).
2016-01-03T15:27:07Z pjb: (list 'a 'b 'c) returns a new list represented by (a b c).
2016-01-03T15:27:31Z pjb: The former, being literal is immutable. The later is mutable.
2016-01-03T15:28:34Z pjb: Notice that lisp source programs are made both of literal lists, and of possibly built lists (notably syntax definitions can build new source sexps when expanded).
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2016-01-03T15:31:51Z jusss: I don't even know "literal" is noun or adj
2016-01-03T15:33:20Z pjb: there are those nice little books called "dictionaries", that contains all the words, and explain what they are and what they mean.
2016-01-03T15:33:40Z pjb: You can even use web search engines to find on-line dictionaries.
2016-01-03T15:33:52Z jusss: pjb: yes I'm doing this,
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2016-01-03T15:36:49Z jusss: pjb: eval it and return it, that's literal ?
2016-01-03T15:37:06Z pjb: jusss: in English, you can use words as verbs, nouns, or adjectives as you wish, basically.  English is rather amorph.
2016-01-03T15:37:18Z pjb: jusss: I wrote the definition above!
2016-01-03T15:37:38Z pjb: "<pjb> jusss: literal is the object that is written textually = literally in the program source."
2016-01-03T15:39:32Z jusss: pjb: I don't know "=" mean what here, equal ?
2016-01-03T15:40:14Z pjb: jusss: literal is the object that is written textually id est literally in the program source.
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2016-01-03T16:03:07Z jusss: pjb: I think I may undertand it
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2016-01-03T16:33:37Z jusss: it's time to go, have a good night
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2016-01-04T03:32:21Z Necrosporus: Would ark work without raket?
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2016-01-04T03:41:54Z pierpa: if they rewrite it using something else
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2016-01-04T03:42:59Z n_blownapart: hello why is this simple program from the little schemer hanging the repl (racket).? thanks for looking : http://pastie.org/10668802
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2016-01-04T03:50:47Z pierpa: n_blownapart: in the add1 you use +, in + you use add1 ...
2016-01-04T03:52:45Z n_blownapart: pierpa, thanks, I believe this is what (the somewhat cryptic) book wants me to do: it says to "use our" definitions of add1 and sub1 to define +, which are defined on the previous page. what do you suggest?
2016-01-04T03:54:28Z pierpa: the book is not cryptic at all
2016-01-04T03:54:43Z n_blownapart: listening...
2016-01-04T03:55:38Z pierpa: what page?
2016-01-04T03:55:50Z n_blownapart: 59-60
2016-01-04T03:56:18Z Necrosporus: n_blownapart, try to name your function differently
2016-01-04T03:57:13Z Necrosporus: Maybe they wanted you to use other char instead of ASCII +, which looks same?
2016-01-04T03:57:32Z pierpa: necrosporus: read the notes
2016-01-04T03:57:55Z pierpa: they ask you to call the function o+
2016-01-04T03:58:28Z pierpa: sorry, I mean, n_blownapart!
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2016-01-04T03:59:11Z n_blownapart: oh, I saw that, I take it that is just the lowercase alpha "o" ?... thanks pierpa Necrosporus
2016-01-04T03:59:17Z Necrosporus: pierpa, that's because scheme has dynamic scoping in repl
2016-01-04T03:59:28Z Necrosporus: n_blownapart, you could use just latin o
2016-01-04T03:59:34Z pierpa: no. that's not a question of scope
2016-01-04T03:59:41Z Necrosporus: only make sure it does not clash with built-in definition
2016-01-04T03:59:54Z pierpa: they want you to call this function o+
2016-01-04T04:00:24Z pierpa: scheme has no dynamic scope in repl or anywhere else
2016-01-04T04:00:25Z Necrosporus: pierpa, why not? If Scheme used static binding like OCaml, then once you define add1 with +, it won't change even if you redefine + later
2016-01-04T04:00:25Z n_blownapart: I see .. not to clash with built-in def. that's what I was wondering pierpa ... cool thanks !
2016-01-04T04:00:52Z pierpa: necrosporus: that's not a question of scope
2016-01-04T04:01:04Z Necrosporus: OK, is it question of what?
2016-01-04T04:01:10Z Necrosporus: Late/ vs early binding?
2016-01-04T04:01:26Z n_blownapart: Necrosporus, afaict , ruby also lets you overwrite an operator as you like, but I don't know diddly
2016-01-04T04:01:29Z pierpa: it's a question that ocaml creates new bindings, scheme reassign the same binding
2016-01-04T04:01:40Z Necrosporus: I think that binding should happen when the function is defined, not when it's called
2016-01-04T04:01:59Z pierpa: that's what both ocaml and scheme do
2016-01-04T04:02:43Z n_blownapart: hmmm, well, at least on drracket, this needs to be called something else. I'm just calling it 'adder'
2016-01-04T04:02:48Z Necrosporus: pierpa, but in case of + is rebound within function even after it is defined
2016-01-04T04:03:16Z n_blownapart: thanks kindly
2016-01-04T04:03:19Z Necrosporus: There must be languages which keep the bindings once they are created
2016-01-04T04:04:06Z pierpa: necrosporus, I know how ocaml and scheme works. There's a difference that is what you are saying. HOWEVER, that is not called scope.
2016-01-04T04:04:17Z n_blownapart: Necrosporus, could you put your conversation in layman's terms?
2016-01-04T04:04:28Z pierpa: by calling it dynamic scope you are confusing everybody
2016-01-04T04:05:34Z Necrosporus: ok, how is it called?
2016-01-04T04:05:37Z pierpa: n_blownapart: they ask you to call it o+, why you don't do what they ask you to do?
2016-01-04T04:05:40Z Necrosporus: Maybe I am
2016-01-04T04:06:04Z Necrosporus: n_blownapart, I mean that in some other languages your code would work
2016-01-04T04:06:28Z Necrosporus: once you defined add1, it would use definition of + which existed in the point of definition
2016-01-04T04:06:48Z n_blownapart: yeah, like in ruby Necrosporus , you can rewrite a math operator. I don't know ruby very well though.
2016-01-04T04:07:12Z Necrosporus: So when you redefine define + later add1 still would use definition from language standard library
2016-01-04T04:07:17Z n_blownapart: pierpa, thanks, I can do that. adder has more meaning for me at the moment.
2016-01-04T04:07:26Z pierpa: ...
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2016-01-04T04:08:46Z Necrosporus: Maybe redefinition should be prohibited if it's done without explicit keyword
2016-01-04T04:09:26Z n_blownapart: frankly, its a trip that subtraction is used in a program for adding numbers. I'm just self-learning ... so thanks for your time.
2016-01-04T04:10:40Z pierpa: btw, in racket there are already add1 and sub1, you don't need to define them.
2016-01-04T04:11:05Z n_blownapart: interesting , thanks pierpa
2016-01-04T04:11:12Z pierpa: the suggestion in the book about how to implement them is meant for systems which don't have them predefined
2016-01-04T04:12:42Z n_blownapart: cool, yeah and also I can learn something by the issue and using the o+ as the name.
2016-01-04T04:15:02Z Necrosporus: What do you think about arc?
2016-01-04T04:15:21Z Necrosporus: n_blownapart, since you have racket you could try it
2016-01-04T04:15:34Z Necrosporus: http://tryarc.org/arc-tutorial/
2016-01-04T04:15:47Z Necrosporus: There's an easy to understand tutorial
2016-01-04T04:15:57Z Necrosporus: It should be easier than scheme
2016-01-04T04:16:06Z Necrosporus: Though I'm not sure
2016-01-04T04:16:09Z n_blownapart: pierpa, by the way, could you explain your comment from above to me? : " scheme reassigns the same binding " . I am not too clear on bindings.
2016-01-04T04:16:35Z n_blownapart: Necrosporus, not familiar, thanks, I'll take a look
2016-01-04T04:17:01Z Necrosporus: n_blownapart, imagine you use something like this (define (incr n) (+ n 1)) (define + foo)
2016-01-04T04:17:45Z n_blownapart: ok, an incrementer that adds one...
2016-01-04T04:17:58Z pierpa: a top level define in scheme works like an assignment to a variable. In other languages, like ocaml, each time a new binding is created
2016-01-04T04:17:58Z Necrosporus: Scheme changes existing binding of + and incr stops working
2016-01-04T04:18:31Z Necrosporus: pierpa, and I think that the second approach is more clearly functional
2016-01-04T04:18:48Z pierpa: of course
2016-01-04T04:20:00Z pierpa: and of course the ocaml way is a PITA while developing programs
2016-01-04T04:20:40Z Necrosporus: Why?
2016-01-04T04:20:44Z n_blownapart: Necrosporus, the existing binding is , so to speak, bound to the core language definition of +
2016-01-04T04:20:49Z n_blownapart: ?
2016-01-04T04:21:29Z Necrosporus: n_blownapart, in ocaml-like it's bound to the latest definition of + which existed before definition of incr
2016-01-04T04:21:59Z Necrosporus: which happens to be core one if this definition is the first in your source file and it does not import modules
2016-01-04T04:23:47Z Necrosporus: pierpa, maybe the best approach would be just do not let to redefine stuff once it's defined, unless redefinition was used explicitly
2016-01-04T04:24:00Z n_blownapart: but if in scheme + is defined at the top level, that means it is just the default definition and the only one the interpreter can use.
2016-01-04T04:24:10Z n_blownapart: right?
2016-01-04T04:24:39Z Necrosporus: n_blownapart, in scheme (define +) works like set!, changing the value of +
2016-01-04T04:24:39Z n_blownapart: hence naming it o+
2016-01-04T04:24:59Z pierpa: top level definition are mutually recursive. If you name a function + scheme assumes you meant it
2016-01-04T04:25:01Z Necrosporus: Like in imperative languages
2016-01-04T04:25:39Z n_blownapart: pierpa, but in my example, there was a conflict with add1 , correct?
2016-01-04T04:26:06Z Necrosporus: yes
2016-01-04T04:26:12Z pierpa: in your example you wrote a couple of mutually recursive functions
2016-01-04T04:26:23Z pierpa: and the recursion had no basis
2016-01-04T04:26:24Z Necrosporus: because you have meant to make add1 basic, not depending on core stuff
2016-01-04T04:26:28Z pierpa: that is called a bug
2016-01-04T04:27:52Z pierpa: redefining at random functions already defined usually is what you get :)
2016-01-04T04:28:30Z n_blownapart: but in the example pierpa , since it told us to use those definitions of add1 and sub1 , to avoid conflict we simply change the function name to o+ . I think the book is written like that just for illustrative purposes.
2016-01-04T04:29:43Z pierpa: if you define + in a certain way, then, + is defined in that way
2016-01-04T04:29:55Z Necrosporus: I would usually use add, sub, mul and div like in assembly
2016-01-04T04:29:56Z pierpa: and you get what you ask
2016-01-04T04:30:25Z Necrosporus: And inc/dec for add1 and sub1 because it's shorter and can't be confused for letter l
2016-01-04T04:31:03Z pierpa: inc and dec usually are used for other things
2016-01-04T04:31:15Z Necrosporus: pierpa, can you explain why OCaml approach is PITA?
2016-01-04T04:31:15Z pierpa: like, incrementing and decrementing a variable
2016-01-04T04:31:27Z pierpa: have you ever programmed in ocaml?
2016-01-04T04:31:33Z Necrosporus: Yes, a little
2016-01-04T04:31:39Z Necrosporus: did not have any problems
2016-01-04T04:32:01Z pierpa: neither do I. But the way of working is completely different
2016-01-04T04:32:02Z Necrosporus: it was fun and felt natural
2016-01-04T04:32:19Z pierpa: then maybe you lack experience in Lisp programming?
2016-01-04T04:32:42Z pierpa: if you compare Ocaml with, say C, then it will feel natural, yes :)
2016-01-04T04:32:56Z pierpa: (only the way of working, I mean)
2016-01-04T04:33:11Z Necrosporus: Lisp approach does not feel that natural
2016-01-04T04:33:31Z Necrosporus: I do not have much experience in either of languages
2016-01-04T04:33:52Z Necrosporus: But with lisp approach my definition could break core libraries
2016-01-04T04:34:14Z Necrosporus: What if I redefine something which is used for + in the core library?
2016-01-04T04:34:24Z Necrosporus: I will suddenly break + too
2016-01-04T04:34:25Z pierpa: if you prefer ocaml, then use ocaml. Are you forced to use scheme because of school?
2016-01-04T04:34:42Z pierpa: you cannot break core libraries
2016-01-04T04:34:45Z Necrosporus: No, but I like to learn new things
2016-01-04T04:34:47Z n_blownapart: ok , please help with this: I removed the add1 and sub1 definitions as per the following paste, and removed "o" from "o+" .. it stills works even though in line 8 the core language + is used. why? scheme reassign the same binding
2016-01-04T04:34:56Z pierpa: you can break only your own code which is in the same module
2016-01-04T04:35:11Z n_blownapart: * http://pastie.org/10668855
2016-01-04T04:35:45Z pierpa: why shouldn't work?
2016-01-04T04:35:56Z Necrosporus: pierpa, so, let's say in the standard library + was defined via sub1 and add1, which were basic
2016-01-04T04:36:04Z n_blownapart: sorry I meant this: I removed the add1 and sub1 definitions as per the following paste, and removed "o" from "o+" .. it stills works even though in line 8 the core language + is used. why?  http://pastie.org/10668855
2016-01-04T04:36:11Z pierpa: in line 8 you are using your definition of +, not racket one
2016-01-04T04:36:31Z Necrosporus: My program redefines them, but does not redefine +. Would + still work as expected?
2016-01-04T04:36:55Z n_blownapart: so it is recursive. before when I was using o+ , I didn't change line 8.
2016-01-04T04:37:05Z pierpa: necrosporus: is you redefine + or add1, you don't break anything not written by you
2016-01-04T04:37:16Z Necrosporus: That's good
2016-01-04T04:37:33Z Necrosporus: In Tcl if I redefined if and for, it made some inner functions stop working
2016-01-04T04:37:41Z n_blownapart: see last comment and please respond ^^
2016-01-04T04:37:50Z Necrosporus: So I got errors in my repl
2016-01-04T04:37:57Z pierpa: necrosporus: this is different from scheme
2016-01-04T04:38:49Z Necrosporus: So it's like scheme wraps everything in single file into (letrec )?
2016-01-04T04:39:33Z pierpa: yes, defines are mutually recursive
2016-01-04T04:39:57Z Necrosporus: Than it's not that bad
2016-01-04T04:40:06Z Necrosporus: but still, what are problems with OCaml?
2016-01-04T04:40:30Z n_blownapart: so pierpa , it's possible to redefine + as in my last paste, and use the core + on line 8 without conflict?
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2016-01-04T04:40:35Z Necrosporus: it does not prohibit mutually recursive definitions if you say that they are explicitly
2016-01-04T04:40:43Z pierpa: there are no problems with Ocaml, I love Ocaml
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2016-01-04T04:40:55Z pierpa: (even though often is a PITA :)
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2016-01-04T04:41:09Z Necrosporus: > pierpa> and of course the ocaml way is a PITA while developing programs
2016-01-04T04:41:25Z Necrosporus: OK, can you explain what is that PITA?
2016-01-04T04:41:29Z pierpa: n_blownapart: you are not using core + now
2016-01-04T04:41:39Z Necrosporus: I'm now curious
2016-01-04T04:41:54Z pierpa: no, I cannot. you win.
2016-01-04T04:42:20Z n_blownapart: pierpa, one moment please...
2016-01-04T04:43:54Z n_blownapart: so please take a look . I changed the definition to o+ , but line 8 uses + . this cannot be recursive, right ? http://pastie.org/10668858
2016-01-04T04:44:48Z pierpa: correct
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2016-01-04T04:45:54Z n_blownapart: it works fine. but if I change line 3 back to + and run it, it becomes a recursive program?
2016-01-04T04:46:49Z pierpa: yes
2016-01-04T04:47:27Z pierpa goes back hacking his Ocaml program
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2016-01-04T04:48:29Z n_blownapart: ok, more drama later. thanks pierpa Necrosporus !
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2016-01-04T07:38:56Z wasamasa: line 8 is still wrong
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2016-01-04T08:33:43Z Necrosporus: I do not get why is there so much annoying (cond (else stuff)) in the little schemer
2016-01-04T08:37:21Z lambda-11235: Necrosporus: Isn't (cond (else stuff)) equivalent to stuff?
2016-01-04T08:37:23Z ggole: To make it easy to add branches, I suppose
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2016-01-04T08:40:37Z Necrosporus: it's and it's exactly why it's annoying
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2016-01-04T09:04:42Z Necrosporus: Is there a way to write a kind of macro or something which say grabs all occurrences of (equality?-xxx args) and transforms it into (equality? xxx args) where xxx could be anything alpha-numeric?
2016-01-04T09:05:27Z Necrosporus: So (equality?-a b) is same as (equality? a b)
2016-01-04T09:05:38Z Necrosporus: in Scheme
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2016-01-04T09:20:42Z jusss: I have a little confused about yin yang puzzle http://paste.ubuntu.com/14398196/
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2016-01-04T09:21:32Z jusss: I expect @*@*********  but it output @*@**@***@
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2016-01-04T09:35:06Z pjb: Necrosporus: originally, lisp didn't have IF.
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2016-01-04T09:52:50Z jackdaniel: (perform 'test-op :usocket-test)
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2016-01-04T09:52:57Z jackdaniel: derp, sorry
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2016-01-04T11:42:50Z jackdaniel: 3
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2016-01-04T12:34:18Z jusss: pjb: hi there, do you know yin yang puzzle ?
2016-01-04T12:34:53Z jusss: http://paste.ubuntu.com/14398196/
2016-01-04T12:35:12Z jusss: I don't know why (yang yang) jump to yin
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2016-01-04T13:28:19Z pjb: jusss: I'm not too good with call/cc, since I'm mostly a CL programmer, and call/cc is a scheme thingy.
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2016-01-04T17:44:25Z autogen: Helo
2016-01-04T17:45:02Z gnomon: EHLO
2016-01-04T17:47:32Z jcowan: HEYHO
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2016-01-04T17:48:17Z autogen: I've brought a few silly questions concerning lambda in general and iterating through a list of strings.
2016-01-04T17:49:07Z gnomon: Fortunately you are in the right place for silly answers from silly people.
2016-01-04T17:49:35Z gnomon nods meaningfully at offby1 and stage-whispers "I'M TALKING ABOUT THAT GUY"
2016-01-04T17:49:42Z autogen: Please, no silly answers.
2016-01-04T17:49:57Z gnomon: Au contraire, _only_ silly answers.
2016-01-04T17:50:08Z autogen: :(
2016-01-04T17:50:55Z autogen: ,help
2016-01-04T17:50:59Z autogen: .help
2016-01-04T17:51:02Z autogen: !help
2016-01-04T17:51:07Z autogen: @help
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2016-01-04T17:51:19Z jcowan: He is said to be associated with Nobotny in Prague
2016-01-04T17:51:28Z jcowan: autogen: We'll do our best for you.  Ask.
2016-01-04T17:51:29Z gnomon: Artisinal silliness, curated in only the smallest of batches by our flannel-wearing silliness sommeliers.
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2016-01-04T17:56:31Z autogen: Sorry, I have no idea how to ask.
2016-01-04T17:56:37Z autogen: Here it goes. Having a list of strings regexps (define regexps ("^" "\\:" "\\/")), how do we return the result of (regexp-substitute/global #f regexp parse-me 'pre "" 'post) to a new list '() for each item in regexps?
2016-01-04T17:57:26Z autogen: For example, a dysfunctional routine, (define fun (lambda (rx) (cons (cdr (regexp-substitute/global #f (car rx) "01/15/2402  12:22" 'pre " " 'post)) '())))
2016-01-04T17:57:47Z autogen: (fun regexps)
2016-01-04T17:59:31Z gnomon: autogen, can you possibly rephrase that question in terms of given inputs and desired outputs?  I can see that you've got a list of regular expressions but I'm having trouble figuring out exactly what you're trying to _do_.
2016-01-04T18:01:21Z autogen: gnomon: given a list of regexps and a string, what's desired is a list of replacements
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2016-01-04T18:02:06Z gnomon: Ah!  Much clearer, thank you.
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2016-01-04T18:02:46Z gnomon: autogen, are you familiar with the MAP procedure?
2016-01-04T18:03:41Z autogen: gnomon: I've been writing map over and over, and I realize that in some way, I've been unintentionally re-implementing it (very poorly and incompletely mind you), but I'm not as familiar with it as I wish to be
2016-01-04T18:04:57Z gnomon: autogen, OK.  Are you more interested in understanding MAP and using that to solve your task, or in mashing together a working solution from whatever is at hand?
2016-01-04T18:05:08Z autogen: Both and more
2016-01-04T18:05:40Z gnomon: OK, let's get a MAP-based solution working, then.  You'll derive more value from that, plus it'll get the job done.
2016-01-04T18:05:55Z autogen: :D
2016-01-04T18:06:57Z gnomon: autogen, first things first: can you describe in plain English your current understanding of what MAP does?  That way we'll know whether to start with fundamentals or mechanics.
2016-01-04T18:10:17Z autogen: gnomon: map applies a function fn iteratively over a list lst unto a list lst_
2016-01-04T18:10:58Z autogen: gnomon: it slurps some input, applies a function, outputs the return to another list
2016-01-04T18:11:09Z autogen: (where list is an output of course)
2016-01-04T18:12:07Z jcowan: Just so.  Note that the order in which the function calls are made is not determined: it can be first-element first, first-element last, or anything else
2016-01-04T18:13:13Z autogen: That's very curious and I've actually made note of that. Wasn't sure if I was doing something wrong though.
2016-01-04T18:13:39Z jcowan: The output will map to the input (never in reverse order) so you only have to worry about it if side effects are relevant.
2016-01-04T18:13:46Z gnomon: autogen, perfect.  (MAP will accept more than one list, as long they are all "of the same length" and the procedure accepts as many arguments as there are lists, but that shouldn't matter for this regexp exercise.)
2016-01-04T18:14:25Z jcowan: Now you need to rewrite your call on regexp-substitute/global as a function for map to apply.
2016-01-04T18:20:42Z autogen: okay, I think this is where I was stuck previously
2016-01-04T18:22:10Z gnomon: autogen, can you write a procedure which accepts a single regexp and returns that substition against a hardcoded string?
2016-01-04T18:22:33Z gnomon: Or better yet, have you already got such a thing?
2016-01-04T18:23:40Z autogen: gnomon: I'm fooling around with it at the moment. What's clear is that lambda may not be needed here D:
2016-01-04T18:23:50Z autogen: (This is what's confusing me)
2016-01-04T18:27:56Z gnomon: Needed, indeed not; it may yet turn out to be a convenience, but we should look into that only once you feel confident, comfortable, and firmly grounded in a knowledge of how MAP works.
2016-01-04T18:28:15Z gnomon: Broad strokes first, then fine details!  (:
2016-01-04T18:31:57Z autogen: gnomon: okay, what I'm seeing is that I need some input for regexp-substitute, which I can only get interatively. For a map procedure, the requirement is exactly the same
2016-01-04T18:32:05Z autogen: (map (regexp-substitute #f "^" "ello world" 'pre "h" 'post) '() '())
2016-01-04T18:34:47Z gnomon: Which you can "only get interactively"..?  I'm not sure I'm following your meaning there.
2016-01-04T18:40:28Z jcowan: Your first problem is that map's first argument must be a procedure, but instead it is whatever regexp-substitute returns, a string or list of strings, I suppose.
2016-01-04T18:40:45Z jcowan: Your second problem is that you don't pass your list of regexes to map, you pass an empty list.
2016-01-04T18:40:59Z jcowan: Your third problem is that you pass another empty list which has no function at all.
2016-01-04T18:46:20Z autogen: I feel like I'm working both backwards and blindly
2016-01-04T18:46:23Z autogen: something isn't right
2016-01-04T18:47:01Z autogen: (define regexps '("^" "\\:" "\\/"))
2016-01-04T18:47:07Z autogen: (define empty-list '())
2016-01-04T18:47:12Z autogen: (define proc-01 (regexp-substitute #f regexps "ello world" 'pre "h" 'post))
2016-01-04T18:47:19Z autogen: (map proc-01 regexps empty-list)
2016-01-04T18:48:43Z gnomon: autogen, back up a second.  What type of result does REGEXP-SUBSTITUTE return?  You're using it as if it returns a procedure, but the name of it _strongly_ implies that it returns a stringity-thingy.
2016-01-04T18:49:23Z autogen: gnomon: it returns a stringy thing. I'm not sure if there's a way to check for a contract of a given procedure
2016-01-04T18:50:54Z autogen: gnomon: also s/interactively/iteratively/
2016-01-04T18:51:07Z gnomon: Ah, that makes a veritable world of difference.
2016-01-04T18:51:40Z autogen: Sorry about that ^.^'
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2016-01-04T18:55:02Z gnomon: autogen, where is your REGEXP-SUBSTITUTE procedure defined?  I'd like to read about it so I can get specific.
2016-01-04T18:55:57Z autogen: (use-modules (ice-9 regex))
2016-01-04T18:56:18Z autogen: oh wait, *facepalm*
2016-01-04T18:56:22Z gnomon: autogen, that doesn't re-e-eally answer my question.  Is this Guile's regular expression package?
2016-01-04T18:56:34Z autogen: Yes D:
2016-01-04T18:57:08Z autogen: #guile is the next tab over...
2016-01-04T18:59:38Z autogen:  — Scheme Procedure: regexp-substitute/globa[D[D[D[D[D[D[D[D[D[D[D[D[D[D[D[D[D[D[D[D[D[D[D[D[D[D[D[D[D[D[D[D[D[D[D[D[D[D[D[D[D[D[D[D[D[D[Dl port regexp target [item...]
2016-01-04T19:00:24Z autogen: https://www.gnu.org/software/guile/docs/docs-1.8/guile-ref/Regexp-Functions.html#Regexp-Functions
2016-01-04T19:00:25Z rudybot: http://teensy.info/LmePOkRhEE
2016-01-04T19:00:36Z gnomon: Thanks, I'm there already.
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2016-01-04T19:03:21Z jcowan: "The following functions are convenient ways to do this."
2016-01-04T19:03:24Z jcowan: HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
2016-01-04T19:03:55Z gnomon: autogen, all right, I see what's going on here: the REGEXP-SUBSTITUTE procedure expects to be called as (regexp-substitute port match [item ...])
2016-01-04T19:04:37Z gnomon: And the "match" argument is returned by, among other procedures, STRING-MATCH, which itself expects a pattern argument and a string argument.
2016-01-04T19:05:10Z gnomon: (This is a pretty gnarly, low-level way to organize things.)
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2016-01-04T19:21:40Z gnomon: autogen, here, try this: (let ((str "ello world") (regexps '("^" "$" "lo wo"))) (map (lambda (patt) (regexp-substitute #f (string-match patt str) 'pre "FOO" 'post)) regexps))
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2016-01-04T20:26:33Z Pixel_Outlaw: Salutations fellow diviners of the parens.
2016-01-04T20:27:15Z jcowan: Hey ho, Pixel_Outlaw.
2016-01-04T20:31:28Z Pixel_Outlaw: Hmm is that Lisp games competition still on? I would like to play some entries. I know one member here was making a top down shooting game but for got who.
2016-01-04T20:34:08Z Pixel_Outlaw: davexunit I think
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2016-01-04T21:23:18Z wasamasa: it should be
2016-01-04T21:25:59Z wasamasa: Pixel_Outlaw: http://itch.io/jam/january-2016-lisp-game-jam
2016-01-04T21:26:42Z Pixel_Outlaw: Thanks
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2016-01-04T22:12:47Z jcowan: Does someone have access to acm.org who can snarf a few papers by James H. Morris for me (the M of KMP search)?
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2016-01-04T22:23:19Z Pixel_Outlaw: Sure
2016-01-04T22:23:30Z Pixel_Outlaw: What do you want me to do with them?
2016-01-04T22:23:56Z jcowan: Email them to me or put them somewhere I can snarf them.
2016-01-04T22:24:06Z jcowan: Here are the URLs
2016-01-04T22:24:27Z jcowan: http://dl.acm.org/citation.cfm?doid=567446.567450
2016-01-04T22:24:40Z jcowan: http://dl.acm.org/citation.cfm?doid=359763.359771
2016-01-04T22:24:53Z jcowan: http://dl.acm.org/citation.cfm?doid=512927.512938
2016-01-04T22:25:03Z jcowan: http://dl.acm.org/citation.cfm?doid=361532.361558
2016-01-04T22:25:28Z Pixel_Outlaw: Oh I see what you need now. These are pay-for papers.
2016-01-04T22:25:33Z jcowan: yeah
2016-01-04T22:25:34Z Pixel_Outlaw: Sorry I don't have an account. :C
2016-01-04T22:25:38Z jcowan: oh
2016-01-04T22:25:48Z jcowan: Otherwise I'd just dl them myself
2016-01-04T22:26:07Z Pixel_Outlaw: I wondered, thought you might be on a phone and needed them sent to an email for some reason.
2016-01-04T22:26:23Z Pixel_Outlaw: Sorry...
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2016-01-04T23:11:58Z autogen: jcowan: when I first encountered such a "convenient" way, I was also a bit suspicious
2016-01-04T23:12:40Z jcowan: autogen: eh?  convenient way to do what?
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2016-01-04T23:15:13Z autogen: jcowan: re: teensy.info/LmePOkRhEE
2016-01-04T23:16:08Z jcowan: Oh, okay, I had lost the context
2016-01-04T23:16:22Z jcowan: just took a decision to roll back today's major release at $EMPLOYER
2016-01-04T23:16:56Z autogen: What happened?
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2016-01-04T23:22:21Z autogen: gnomon: that works perfectly and is so much easier to read. I had become so close!
2016-01-04T23:22:56Z autogen: I'm not in the position where I can sit and focus on this, but I'll be back shortly for the next of ways to approach this
2016-01-04T23:23:06Z autogen: (outside of map)
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2016-01-04T23:25:10Z autogen: Naturally of course, I thank you ffor your help and support. This solution has provided much insight!
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2016-01-04T23:34:53Z autogen: gnomon: oh, in the mapping of my lambda expression, I had overlooked the third expression `regexps' which makes total sense, as that's the list that will be fed into the expression itself
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2016-01-04T23:35:29Z autogen: (i.e., (lambda (x) (defines) (in)))
2016-01-04T23:39:07Z autogen: The (string-match) argument seems a little strange though
2016-01-04T23:39:38Z Mokuso: I guess scheme is a good first functional language for someone who wants to move to something that is popular, jobwise (haskell/clojure/scala) ? Was just wondering if there are any jobs to write software in scheme, but I guess that's not why it was built on the first place.
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2016-01-04T23:39:57Z jcowan: autogen: serious bug between us and a partner, we don't yet know why
2016-01-04T23:40:15Z autogen: jcowan: hmm?
2016-01-04T23:41:08Z jcowan: Ah, now you lost the context.  I was explaining why I was distracted
2016-01-04T23:41:20Z autogen: jcowan: oh, I got it.. Haha :p
2016-01-04T23:41:56Z autogen: Mokuso: haskell is a fine first language as well. I think any language is okay as long as you learn it thoroughly and can get the job done. To who may concern themselves with employing those skilled in a specific language varies of course,
2016-01-04T23:42:18Z Mokuso: thanks autogen
2016-01-04T23:43:35Z autogen: Mokuso: I'd like to use perl6 all over the place, but I end up writing the same procedures in whatever other languages I will (e.g., perl6, elisp, c, haskell, etc) and feel satisified
2016-01-04T23:44:03Z autogen: just practice :-)
2016-01-04T23:44:04Z Mokuso: I was thinking going into data mining/centric jobs, so I was thinking of learning scala at some point, which is partly functional. Scheme is fine, getting used to the whole recursive thinking and been watching the SICP course some days now.
2016-01-04T23:44:20Z Mokuso: heh, thanx :>
2016-01-04T23:44:48Z Mokuso: for the time being I'm dealing with python/R and learning scheme on the side
2016-01-04T23:45:17Z autogen: Mokuso: scala and clojure are pretty popular, absolutely. Can always adopt the ways of functionality in the common languages like java, python and such as well, but that may be asking a bit much
2016-01-04T23:46:29Z Mokuso: yeah. One can use lambdas in python though, and functions inside functions etc, which is cool. Don't know much about Java. I think Scala was made for this purpose, to combine OOP and functional programming.
2016-01-04T23:49:04Z autogen: I'm not sure of any languages that haven't a particular abstract to parametric polymorphism, but many functional concepts apply
2016-01-04T23:52:14Z autogen: jcowan: hey, might you know of any "best practices" type of material for scheme?
2016-01-04T23:52:42Z jcowan: I don't know of any.
2016-01-04T23:53:06Z autogen topic
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2016-01-04T23:54:44Z autogen: holy.. library.readscheme.org I'll go on a binge soon enough and read all of that
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2016-01-05T00:04:26Z autogen: Is there any immediate advantages to using Chez Scheme?
2016-01-05T00:04:46Z autogen: s/is/are/
2016-01-05T00:04:57Z turbofail: it's fast, supposedly
2016-01-05T00:05:26Z turbofail: good luck obtaining it though (the native code version, not the bytecode version)
2016-01-05T00:06:08Z Riastradh: Advantage: it's proprietary, so you can't study it, or modify it, or redistribute it, or...
2016-01-05T00:06:34Z turbofail: these days i don't even think you can use it at all, unless you work for cisco
2016-01-05T00:06:52Z autogen: Ah, things I enjoy not doing. :-)
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2016-01-05T00:09:06Z turbofail: if you want a free compiler that uses some of chez's techniques, you can look at ikarus/vikare
2016-01-05T00:09:22Z turbofail: er, vicare
2016-01-05T00:10:17Z autogen: could be interesting to look into (similarly, cryptol.. ) but, my book on portamenti has just arrived, so I'll be back :-)
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2016-01-05T00:12:28Z autogen: by chance, do we have a scheme-offtopic?
2016-01-05T00:13:33Z Mokuso: I can find one
2016-01-05T00:13:50Z Mokuso: if that was a proposal :>
2016-01-05T00:14:02Z Mokuso: ah, you meant a channel eh
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2016-01-05T00:16:29Z autogen: yes lol
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2016-01-05T00:20:13Z gnomon: jcowan, let me see what I can do about that through $WORK tomorrow.
2016-01-05T00:22:32Z gnomon: autogen, you're welcome!  I'm very glad that helped.  I was worried about just giving you a [one possible] solution rather than working through the problem-solving process with you, but I was juggling too many other things to really devote the time.  For whatever it's worth, the STRING-MATCH thing looks strange to me too, but it's apparently how Guile's regexps stuffses are structured.
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2016-01-05T02:03:42Z qu1j0t3: gnomon: Ah hello
2016-01-05T02:03:54Z qu1j0t3: jcowhi, happy new year
2016-01-05T02:04:00Z qu1j0t3: oops that was for jcowan the departed
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2016-01-05T02:07:01Z autogen: gnomon: hey no worries, the entire time I was in and out of meetings, different projects in different languages both natural and formal! Glad I'm not alone :)
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2016-01-05T06:23:56Z jusss: does call/cc capture name space into stack ?
2016-01-05T06:24:14Z jusss: or called environment or context ?
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2016-01-05T06:59:09Z pjb: jusss: yes.
2016-01-05T06:59:23Z pjb: jusss: it makes the stack into a tree.
2016-01-05T06:59:29Z jusss: pjb: but it's not
2016-01-05T06:59:44Z pjb: autogen: you can consider #lispcafe the #scheme off topic.
2016-01-05T06:59:50Z jusss: pjb: call/cc can't capture variable into stack
2016-01-05T06:59:59Z pjb: autogen: It's the lisp off topic in general.
2016-01-05T07:00:16Z pjb: jusss: it's not call/cc that does it, but the closure that calls it.
2016-01-05T07:02:21Z jusss: pjb: (set! a 3) (set! k (call/cc (lambda (k) k))) (set! a 5) (k k) and now a is 5 not 3, it can prove call/cc can't take name space into stack I think
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2016-01-05T07:02:36Z jusss: if it does, then a should be 3
2016-01-05T07:03:27Z pjb: Sorry, I can't allocate the brain power on call/cc right now :-(
2016-01-05T07:04:08Z jusss: if it can't capture variable into stack , so how yin yang puzzle works ?
2016-01-05T07:05:03Z jusss: so I think there're some people misunderstand the trick of yin yang puzzle
2016-01-05T07:06:06Z pjb: jusss: one thing: if you try call/cc on the REPL, you may have surprises, because of the way the REPL work. I would advise you to wrap your call/cc tests in procedures and call them.
2016-01-05T07:06:14Z jusss: and what's the trick of yin yang puzzle, I'd like to know
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2016-01-05T07:07:18Z jusss: pjb: yes I use call/cc in procedures, not on repl
2016-01-05T07:07:59Z pjb: you may try drawing the various stack/tree states.
2016-01-05T07:09:46Z jusss: pjb: do you know where's the stand answer of yin yang puzzle ? like some official website
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2016-01-05T07:10:08Z jusss: websites
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2016-01-05T07:13:59Z pjb: I don't.
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2016-01-05T10:00:23Z wasamasa: this looks very handy for the lisp game jam: https://github.com/emillon/bulletml
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2016-01-05T10:00:53Z wasamasa: it's a ML implementation of the http://www.asahi-net.or.jp/%7Ecs8k-cyu/bulletml/bulletml_ref_e.html spec, but adapting it shouldn't be hard
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2016-01-05T10:27:14Z ivan-kanis: How do I get the reference of a symbol?
2016-01-05T10:28:19Z taylan: ivan-kanis: what do you mean with reference?
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2016-01-05T10:35:00Z ivan-kanis: (string->symbol "foo") -> foo
2016-01-05T10:35:29Z ivan-kanis: I am trying to get the procedure (lambda (x) x) -> #<procedure 1323860 at <current input>:74:0 (x)>
2016-01-05T10:35:53Z ivan-kanis: taylan: I am on Guile if that matters
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2016-01-05T10:36:15Z ivan-kanis: taylan: you changed your nick...
2016-01-05T10:37:26Z ggole__: Are you asking how to get the value of a symbol? Symbols don't have values in scheme.
2016-01-05T10:38:07Z ivan-kanis: I'll explain what I am trying to do. I am hacking xbindkeys a bit.
2016-01-05T10:38:29Z ivan-kanis: I have stored a function assigned to a key as a string "foo"
2016-01-05T10:38:46Z ivan-kanis: Now when I hit the key I would like to call the string.
2016-01-05T10:39:08Z ivan-kanis: scm_call_0 (scm_string_to_symbol(key->function));
2016-01-05T10:39:41Z ivan-kanis: but scm_call_0 is complaining (rightly I think) that symbol is not a proc
2016-01-05T10:39:59Z ggole__: Sounds like you want a table mapping strings to Scheme procedures.
2016-01-05T10:40:35Z taylan: Guile-specific: (module-ref (resolve-module '(my module)) 'foo)
2016-01-05T10:40:37Z ivan-kanis: actually I don't want to store the procedure
2016-01-05T10:41:00Z ivan-kanis: because when I re evaluate the function it calls the old procedure still
2016-01-05T10:41:00Z taylan: that will get you the value of the top-level binding for "foo" in the module "(my module)"
2016-01-05T10:41:38Z ivan-kanis: taylan: it's in top level
2016-01-05T10:42:23Z nalaginrut: ivan-kanis:  or (@ (my module) foo), as guile-specific
2016-01-05T10:42:42Z taylan: nalaginrut: note that that won't work with string->symbol since it's a macro
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2016-01-05T10:43:14Z taylan: (doesn't evaluate the "foo")
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2016-01-05T10:43:20Z nalaginrut: I didn't read the context ;-P
2016-01-05T10:43:21Z ivan-kanis: I need to this in C though...
2016-01-05T10:43:37Z taylan: ivan-kanis: module-ref and resolve-module should be in the C API in some form
2016-01-05T10:43:44Z ivan-kanis: ok
2016-01-05T10:44:01Z ivan-kanis: thanks for the help, I wasn't finding in the doc
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2016-01-05T10:44:23Z taylan: hmm, looks like they have quite different names though.  (info "(guile) Accessing Modules from C")
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2016-01-05T11:07:19Z ivan-kanis: Is the top level defined as a globule name? i.e. what do I put after (resolve-module ?
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2016-01-05T11:37:19Z wingo: ivan-kanis: '(guile-user)
2016-01-05T11:37:32Z wingo: probably better #guile for these questions tho
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2016-01-05T14:45:32Z Necrosporus: How does Arc compare to scheme?
2016-01-05T14:46:31Z wasamasa: it has a similiarly small manual
2016-01-05T14:49:08Z Necrosporus: It seems even smaller
2016-01-05T14:49:20Z Necrosporus: I have read entire tutorial at least
2016-01-05T14:58:24Z gnomon: Scheme and Arc both seem profound.
2016-01-05T14:59:11Z gnomon: Scheme is like a philosophy professor who also happens to have a deep well of world experience but still seems to have a touch of starry-eyed optimism.
2016-01-05T14:59:30Z gnomon: Arc is like your scatterbrained uncle who constantly reads self-help books and quotes Deepak Chopra.
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2016-01-05T16:52:23Z jcowan: ho hey
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2016-01-05T17:18:48Z teurastaja: artificial life using scheme?
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2016-01-05T17:44:11Z taylan looks up who Deepak Chopra is, becomes sad
2016-01-05T17:44:41Z taylan: (because of him, not because I like Arc :P)
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2016-01-05T17:58:16Z gnomon: taylan, I'm sorry, I did not intend to sadden you.
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2016-01-05T17:58:33Z teurastaja: whats going on here?
2016-01-05T17:59:03Z teurastaja: (probe environment)
2016-01-05T18:00:10Z taylan: teurastaja: I was responding to "Arc is like your scatterbrained uncle who constantly reads self-help books and quotes Deepak Chopra."
2016-01-05T18:00:53Z taylan: gnomon: no worries, getting exposed to nutheads is generally unavoidable :P
2016-01-05T18:01:05Z teurastaja: taylan: inconcise definition
2016-01-05T18:01:16Z taylan: (I hope that's not unfair to that person, I merely skimmed the intro of their Wikipedia page)
2016-01-05T18:01:17Z teurastaja: by similie
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2016-01-05T18:01:38Z gnomon: taylan, it's unfair, but only because you are being mind-bogglingly generous to the fellow.
2016-01-05T18:01:44Z taylan: hahaha, ok
2016-01-05T18:01:50Z teurastaja: so arc is an instance of your scatterbrained uncle?
2016-01-05T18:02:27Z gnomon: teurastaja, let me reiterate my snarky comment in full.
2016-01-05T18:02:50Z gnomon: 09:45:32 < Necrosporus> How does Arc compare to scheme?
2016-01-05T18:02:57Z gnomon: [...]
2016-01-05T18:03:04Z gnomon: 09:58:24 < gnomon> Scheme and Arc both seem profound.
2016-01-05T18:03:16Z gnomon: 09:59:11 < gnomon> Scheme is like a philosophy professor who also happens to have a deep well of world experience but still seems to have a touch of starry-eyed optimism.
2016-01-05T18:03:22Z gnomon: 09:59:30 < gnomon> Arc is like your scatterbrained uncle who constantly reads self-help books and quotes Deepak Chopra.
2016-01-05T18:03:24Z teurastaja: with book quote attributes, a read-book method and a book pointer linking to a library
2016-01-05T18:03:27Z gnomon: Apologies for the spam.
2016-01-05T18:04:06Z teurastaja: what is it with those fuzzy definitions?
2016-01-05T18:04:41Z teurastaja: if youre gonna use scheme to define the universe, define it well
2016-01-05T18:05:03Z Necrosporus: gnomon, strange comparison
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2016-01-05T18:05:16Z Necrosporus: What's wrong with Arc?
2016-01-05T18:05:20Z teurastaja: id define the universe as a sort of monad
2016-01-05T18:05:29Z Necrosporus: Judging by its tutorial it seem nice
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2016-01-05T18:06:16Z Necrosporus: I would try programming in it if it didn't depend on Raket
2016-01-05T18:07:26Z teurastaja: id like scheme to define a garbage collector in its standard, but that wont happen
2016-01-05T18:08:43Z teurastaja: reentrant continuations make garbage-collection a pain in the ass
2016-01-05T18:09:06Z teurastaja: else id just count references
2016-01-05T18:09:23Z gnomon: Necrosporus, Arc-as-a-set-of-ideals is pretty great, but Arc-as-a-real-thing-that-matters is, um... less... great..?
2016-01-05T18:09:32Z gnomon: I'm trying to be as generous as I can be, here.
2016-01-05T18:13:02Z Necrosporus: gnomon, what is less great, Arc language or arc implementation?
2016-01-05T18:13:24Z Necrosporus: Because the implementation could be fixed
2016-01-05T18:14:37Z jcowan: teurastaja: Yes, but is it a windowless monad?
2016-01-05T18:15:08Z jcowan: Necrosporus: Arc-as-a-language was a great disappointment to many, because it throws out the hard-earned baby with the bath water
2016-01-05T18:15:54Z Necrosporus: Can you clarify?
2016-01-05T18:16:19Z gnomon: Necrosporus, after paying attention to Arc-the-implementation for a while, I gave up on caring about Arc-the-language.  I don't dispute that it _could_ be fixed, only on judging whether there is any value in doing so when there are so many better ways to aim the necessary expertise.
2016-01-05T18:16:26Z gnomon: well
2016-01-05T18:16:45Z jcowan: I never got close to Arc-the-implementation
2016-01-05T18:16:46Z gnomon: I obviously haven't given up on _caring_ about it, only on believing that it will ever matter.
2016-01-05T18:18:08Z gnomon: jcowan, I'd say you dodged a bullet, but it's more like a half-deflated dodge ball dripping pond scum and lobbed lackadaisically by a dispirited part-time Uber driver.
2016-01-05T18:18:09Z jcowan: "Implementation" is ambiguous here:  Arc-the-language is an implementation of Arc-the-goals, and Arc-the-Racket-code is an implementation of Arc-the-language
2016-01-05T18:18:47Z jcowan: So I approve of Arc-the-goals, thought Arc-the-language missed them, and therefore it didn't matter to me if Arc-the-Racket-code was a faithful implementation or not.
2016-01-05T18:19:11Z Necrosporus: Why do you think that Arc-l misses the goals?
2016-01-05T18:19:24Z jcowan: Well, flushing everything we have painfully learned about macros is not a good sign.
2016-01-05T18:19:53Z gnomon: Also everything we've learned about character sets.
2016-01-05T18:20:17Z Necrosporus: making macros grab variables by default?
2016-01-05T18:20:21Z jcowan: Yes.
2016-01-05T18:20:56Z jcowan: But it's worse than that, because hygiene issues cannot be worked around by local means.
2016-01-05T18:20:58Z Necrosporus: but why not to have both hygienic and not-hygienic types?
2016-01-05T18:21:24Z jcowan: I don't object to syntax-case and the like, but that's different from def(ine-)macro.
2016-01-05T18:21:33Z Necrosporus: The author says that grabbing vars is sometimes desirable
2016-01-05T18:21:38Z jcowan: (I would never use syntax-case myself, but that's neither here nor there)
2016-01-05T18:22:05Z gnomon: Oh, are we talking about Arc's author now?
2016-01-05T18:22:18Z jcowan: gnomon: correct me if I am wrong, but all you can get in Arc is half-hygiene, right, like CL with careful use of gensyms?
2016-01-05T18:23:07Z gnomon: jcowan, I'm pretty sure that's as good as it gets, yes; but I stopped caring enough to look closely a while back.
2016-01-05T18:23:50Z Necrosporus: (mac repeat (n . body) `(for ,(uniq) 1 ,n ,@body))
2016-01-05T18:24:33Z Necrosporus: jcowan, http://tryarc.org/arc-tutorial/ grep for w/uniq
2016-01-05T18:25:14Z ggole: That's just the CL facility with a shorter name.
2016-01-05T18:26:50Z teurastaja: jcowan: windowless monad?
2016-01-05T18:27:40Z ggole wonders how many people have heard of Leibniz these days
2016-01-05T18:27:53Z teurastaja: me!
2016-01-05T18:28:06Z ecraven: the cookies?
2016-01-05T18:28:21Z gnomon: me!
2016-01-05T18:28:28Z teurastaja: i heard self-awareness is a function mapping a monadic predicate to another monadic predicate
2016-01-05T18:28:34Z ggole: I take it you are familiar with his mathematics rather than this (admittedly, strange and obscure) philosophy
2016-01-05T18:28:45Z teurastaja: how could it be implemented?
2016-01-05T18:28:54Z gnomon: ggole, indeed, the mathematics.
2016-01-05T18:29:20Z teurastaja: ggole: i like his metaphysics
2016-01-05T18:29:41Z ggole: It makes for a nice crop of PL jokes, at least
2016-01-05T18:30:21Z teurastaja: x != x
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2016-01-05T18:32:12Z teurastaja: curry-howard isomorphism can be used to prove this
2016-01-05T18:32:36Z ggole: Don't need that when you have floating point
2016-01-05T18:32:52Z teurastaja: that its X is equivalent to X but we cant prove type equality
2016-01-05T18:33:12Z teurastaja: ggole: lol
2016-01-05T18:33:23Z teurastaja: or exact->inexact
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2016-01-05T18:34:43Z Necrosporus: It seem that author thinks that hygienic macros are less powerful
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2016-01-05T19:24:00Z taylan: "Hygienic macros were a mistake" it says?  Into the trash with it.  (... as memetic Internet speak goes.)
2016-01-05T19:24:44Z wasamasa: you and whose memes?
2016-01-05T19:25:02Z taylan: wasamasa: ?
2016-01-05T19:25:12Z wasamasa: taylan: you suck at this
2016-01-05T19:25:30Z taylan: :(
2016-01-05T19:25:41Z wasamasa: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amnesiac_(album)
2016-01-05T19:26:04Z taylan: don't know that one
2016-01-05T19:26:15Z wasamasa: I'll banish you to /mu/ then
2016-01-05T19:26:26Z taylan: heh, never been there
2016-01-05T19:26:54Z taylan: do they really exclusively listen to music genres whose name I probably never heard?
2016-01-05T19:31:44Z pjb: I don't.
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2016-01-05T19:43:24Z taylan: pjb: you /mu/?
2016-01-05T19:44:13Z pjb: Just ignore me, I typed RET too early (I wanted to repeat a command with C-p, not a message).
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2016-01-05T19:50:21Z taylan: heh
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2016-01-05T21:35:38Z autogen: 14:24  taylan "Hygienic macros were a mistake" it says?  Into the trash with it.
2016-01-05T21:35:59Z autogen: more context please!
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2016-01-05T21:37:03Z gnomon: autogen, the context is Arc, and writings about Arc by Paul Graham.
2016-01-05T21:37:41Z autogen: Are hygienic macros really a mistake?
2016-01-05T21:37:55Z autogen: Or does PG just have beef with them for some reason or no other
2016-01-05T21:39:18Z jcowan: My guess would be that (like most people) he doesn't really understand the issues
2016-01-05T21:40:21Z jcowan: They solve two problems:  names bound in the macro don't affect the point of call (which can be worked around with gensyms/uniqs), and names bound at the point of call don't affect the macro (which has no work around).
2016-01-05T21:40:40Z jcowan: It's the second part that requires all input to be scanned, not just macro calls and definitions.
2016-01-05T21:41:15Z jcowan: Common Lisp's packages and separate function and variable namespaces make the second point less likely to bite you, but provide no actual protection.
2016-01-05T21:42:24Z jcowan: In newLisp the convention is to use a separate package for *every* routine, which eliminates the problem at both run time and macro expansion time, but has to be carefully maintained or else.
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2016-01-05T23:22:50Z qu1j0t3: jcowan: happy new year!
2016-01-05T23:23:20Z qu1j0t3: jcowan: PG is so reliably wrong, a friend just coined "PG;DR"
2016-01-05T23:23:23Z jcowan: qu1j0t3: Thanks, and same to you
2016-01-05T23:23:27Z jcowan snickers
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2016-01-06T00:30:19Z n_blownapart: hi I guess I don't understand recursion yet even after studying the trace output. please tell me precisely what is happening first My assumption is that once (zero? b) a) is passed over, the very first operation is at the innermost nest on line 16, (sub1 b) , where it subtracts 1 from b, before any addition takes place :   http://pastie.org/10672356
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2016-01-06T00:31:36Z n_blownapart: the (sub1 b) is the heart of the recursion, and is likened in my textbook to (cdr lat)...
2016-01-06T00:31:47Z n_blownapart: is this correct? ^^
2016-01-06T00:36:43Z turbofail: sub1 is not a recursive call
2016-01-06T00:37:25Z turbofail: but it is what guarantees that the recursion will terminate
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2016-01-06T00:39:36Z n_blownapart: turbofail: thanks, the book likens sub1 to (cdr lat) ... so is it correct to say that it sets up the base case.?
2016-01-06T00:40:02Z turbofail: i believe the term the racket people use is "structural recursion"
2016-01-06T00:40:20Z n_blownapart: could you elaborate on that?
2016-01-06T00:41:07Z turbofail: so for a list, you can break it down into the head item of the list, and the "rest" of the list.  this is the natural way to recurse over a list, and it terminates when you get an empty list
2016-01-06T00:41:31Z jcowan: the fact that it always wworks follows from the structure of a list
2016-01-06T00:42:00Z jcowan: just as the fact that sub1 will always work to shrink a natural number follows from the definition of natural numbers
2016-01-06T00:42:32Z n_blownapart: thanks, ok so is it true that the first operation begins with (sub1) subtracting 1 from b ( b = 5) , as the second output on line 21 indicates?
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2016-01-06T00:43:52Z turbofail: yes
2016-01-06T00:43:59Z n_blownapart: i.e. before the base case is reached, the program flow begins at the innermost nest on the last line, whether its cdr lat or sub1 ...
2016-01-06T00:44:29Z turbofail: yes, that's how scheme works.  we call that "applicative order"
2016-01-06T00:45:10Z jcowan: which is to say, inward-out order, or arguments before functions.
2016-01-06T00:46:20Z n_blownapart: cool. if I may reword it : the right most nested part of line 16 and the function call to the left recurs the program. the add1 outer nest or (car lat) in a lat's case, hold off until the base case is reached.
2016-01-06T00:47:05Z n_blownapart: arguments before functions .. that is key jcowan
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2016-01-06T00:48:25Z n_blownapart: or car lat is simultaneous as per a previous conversation here...
2016-01-06T00:49:00Z n_blownapart: car lat prepends simultaneously, I mean ^
2016-01-06T00:50:24Z turbofail: "simultaneous" is not a great word to use in this situation.  or ever if you really want to get down to it
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2016-01-06T00:53:59Z n_blownapart: technically it happens after the base case is reached, I guess turbofail ?
2016-01-06T00:55:09Z turbofail: yes.  the add1 happens after the recursive call returns, and the recursive call can only ever return after hitting the base case
2016-01-06T00:55:55Z n_blownapart: thanks very much I'm running with this turbofail jcowan
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2016-01-06T00:56:45Z jcowan: n_blownapart: Note that although arguments are always processed before the procedure is called, they are not evaluated in any specific order.
2016-01-06T00:58:26Z n_blownapart: pondering that
2016-01-06T01:00:04Z n_blownapart: jcowan: but (sub1 b) on line 16 is what *actually* decrements 5 to 4 on line 23 of the output.
2016-01-06T01:00:14Z n_blownapart: ?
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2016-01-06T01:01:01Z n_blownapart: I suppose I'm trying to visualize something that occurs in no particular order...
2016-01-06T01:01:05Z jcowan: Yes, but your use of "decrement" suggests that you think it works by side effect, which it does not:  it is no more and no less than (- b 1)
2016-01-06T01:01:26Z jcowan: or b-1 in conventional notation
2016-01-06T01:01:49Z n_blownapart: yeah ok thank you. I'm not really at the level of thinking about side effects.
2016-01-06T01:02:01Z turbofail: it does happen in a particular order though
2016-01-06T01:02:28Z n_blownapart: please elaborate
2016-01-06T01:03:13Z turbofail: you can think of the evaluation process as being a series of substitutions
2016-01-06T01:03:45Z turbofail: in which you always try and substitute the arguments to a function first
2016-01-06T01:03:59Z n_blownapart: I don't follow
2016-01-06T01:04:55Z turbofail: let's say you're trying to evaluate (add1 (o+ a (sub1 b)))
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2016-01-06T01:05:17Z n_blownapart: ok
2016-01-06T01:05:28Z turbofail: you need to evaluate the argument expression (o+ a (sub1 b)) first
2016-01-06T01:05:51Z turbofail: so now you're trying to evaluate that, and in order to do that, you need to evaluate ITS arguments, which are a and (sub1 b)
2016-01-06T01:06:28Z turbofail: a in this particular function call is going to be 6, so that's easy enough to evaluate
2016-01-06T01:06:28Z n_blownapart: ok
2016-01-06T01:06:39Z n_blownapart: right
2016-01-06T01:06:57Z turbofail: to evaluate (sub1 b), we then have to evaluate b, which we know is 5 in this function call
2016-01-06T01:07:14Z turbofail: so you can substitute (sub1 b) with (sub1 5)
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2016-01-06T01:07:54Z n_blownapart: line 22 results in (o+ 6 5), so that happens next at line 23
2016-01-06T01:07:55Z turbofail: and then, to evaluate (sub1 5), you have to expand the body of sub1, substituting 5 everywhere you see the variable n, which expands out to (- 5 1)
2016-01-06T01:08:36Z n_blownapart: yeah, down the line to the base case. so where I said decrement, a better word is substitution of the b value
2016-01-06T01:08:43Z turbofail: sure
2016-01-06T01:08:48Z n_blownapart: excellent
2016-01-06T01:08:55Z turbofail: and that leaves us with (add1 (o+ 6 4))
2016-01-06T01:09:22Z turbofail: but to evaluate that, we then need to substitute the body of o+ with a being 6 and b being 4
2016-01-06T01:09:59Z n_blownapart: got it . then after the base case it builds up the number with add1.
2016-01-06T01:10:07Z turbofail: yes
2016-01-06T01:10:21Z n_blownapart: so why did fellow member say no particular order ?
2016-01-06T01:10:46Z turbofail: if a function call has two arguments, those two arguments won't get evaluated in any guaranteed order
2016-01-06T01:11:18Z turbofail: so if you were calling (f (print a) (print b)), there's no particular guarantee as to whether a or b will get printed first
2016-01-06T01:11:22Z n_blownapart: strange, like in ruby, a hash can be built in any unseen order I think.
2016-01-06T01:11:48Z turbofail: but what is guaranteed is that (print a) and (print b) will get called before doing anything in f
2016-01-06T01:12:16Z n_blownapart: many thanks . right, ok yeah the ambiguity remains within the arguments.
2016-01-06T01:13:10Z n_blownapart: thanks kindly all. gotta go its getting dark.
2016-01-06T01:14:12Z n_blownapart: I just don't understand why a computer language is written with that sort of random ordering.
2016-01-06T01:15:17Z turbofail: well, for pure programs, such as the one we've been examining, the order in which those arguments are evaluated doesn't matter
2016-01-06T01:15:56Z n_blownapart: cool I love it in any case. thanks
2016-01-06T01:15:56Z turbofail: and it's typically not "random"
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2016-01-06T01:16:13Z n_blownapart: its just under the hood stuff
2016-01-06T01:16:16Z turbofail: it's just, it may vary between different language implementations, and so you shouldn't rely on it
2016-01-06T01:16:17Z turbofail: exactly
2016-01-06T01:16:26Z n_blownapart: got it
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2016-01-06T01:19:47Z turbofail: hm.  a berkeley student.
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2016-01-06T06:48:37Z NaN: hi there
2016-01-06T06:48:59Z qu1j0t3: hi
2016-01-06T06:49:55Z NaN: I am reading the little schemer and I like it :D
2016-01-06T06:50:25Z NaN: But I don't know how can I test the exercises, I mean, what do I need to download to compile and start writing code
2016-01-06T06:50:53Z NaN: What do I need?
2016-01-06T06:51:11Z qu1j0t3: what operating system?
2016-01-06T06:52:05Z NaN: Maveriks and El Capitan
2016-01-06T06:52:17Z qu1j0t3: do you already use Homebrew?
2016-01-06T06:52:57Z NaN: yes
2016-01-06T06:54:03Z qu1j0t3: personally, I use chicken scheme, which can be instaled with:  $ brew install chicken
2016-01-06T06:54:13Z qu1j0t3: then you can run   csi    to get a scheme interpreter
2016-01-06T06:54:17Z qu1j0t3: REPL)
2016-01-06T06:54:45Z qu1j0t3: TLS examples should work fine there
2016-01-06T06:55:07Z qu1j0t3: you can also create aa scheme source file (.scm) and run with    csi foo.scm
2016-01-06T06:55:22Z NaN: Is Scheme compiled, isn't?
2016-01-06T06:55:32Z qu1j0t3: you can compile it, but csi is an interpreter.
2016-01-06T06:55:40Z qu1j0t3: Chicken provides a compiler, `csc`
2016-01-06T06:55:58Z qu1j0t3: when starting out you might find the REPL (csi) convenient
2016-01-06T06:56:31Z biubiubiu: NaN: racket and guile may be good
2016-01-06T06:56:42Z NaN: So REPL is like a VM?
2016-01-06T06:57:49Z qu1j0t3: no, REPL is just an interactive evaluator.
2016-01-06T06:58:20Z NaN: like a CLI interpreter, got it
2016-01-06T06:58:20Z biubiubiu: NaN: what do you want to compile ? native code or byte code ?
2016-01-06T06:58:26Z qu1j0t3: NaN: yes
2016-01-06T06:58:47Z NaN: biubiubiu: I really don't know, this is my 2nd day reading TLS
2016-01-06T06:59:04Z NaN: biubiubiu: what's the difference?
2016-01-06T06:59:38Z biubiubiu: NaN: native code like you can run it directly without scheme environment
2016-01-06T07:00:37Z biubiubiu: NaN: but byte code need scheme implements
2016-01-06T07:02:00Z biubiubiu: NaN: chicken can turn scheme to c code I heard, it can make native code I think
2016-01-06T07:02:07Z NaN: biubiubiu: then I would like to compile byte code
2016-01-06T07:02:42Z biubiubiu: NaN: then there're lots of implements to provide that
2016-01-06T07:03:30Z biubiubiu: NaN: but I suggest guile and racket
2016-01-06T07:06:34Z qu1j0t3: NaN: If you only want to run examples from TLS, you dont even need to be concerned about any of that
2016-01-06T07:06:54Z qu1j0t3: csi - interpreter. csc - will compile via C to anative binary.
2016-01-06T07:07:08Z qu1j0t3: bytecode is irrelevant to your purpose
2016-01-06T07:10:36Z NaN: Too many options, that's why I feel confused
2016-01-06T07:12:14Z NaN: Righ now I just want to run TLS examples, but in the long run I would like to compile and do scheme things
2016-01-06T07:12:50Z qu1j0t3: THen there's enough to get you started above.
2016-01-06T07:13:03Z qu1j0t3: $ brew install chicken         $ csi
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2016-01-06T07:16:57Z NaN: Great, thanks qu1j0t3
2016-01-06T07:17:06Z NaN: And thanks biubiubiu too :)
2016-01-06T07:17:23Z NaN: I'll come here often
2016-01-06T07:17:49Z qu1j0t3: NaN: happy to help. Keep asking q's if needed
2016-01-06T07:26:26Z NaN: Sure I will... gota go!
2016-01-06T07:26:30Z NaN: Thanks again
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2016-01-06T14:41:15Z biubiubiu: so quiet here!
2016-01-06T14:43:29Z gnomon: SSSSSSSHHH JEEZ
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2016-01-06T17:30:12Z leppie: I have my own little personal gavino :(
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2016-01-06T17:33:00Z jcowan: leppie: Really, who?
2016-01-06T17:33:49Z leppie: some guy been asking for Ironscheme to support proper call/cc for like 3 years now, answer is still no
2016-01-06T17:34:04Z jcowan: ah
2016-01-06T17:34:17Z jcowan: But is he asking it to support database prevalence?
2016-01-06T17:34:29Z jcowan: Tell him to port SISC to IKVM
2016-01-06T17:34:32Z leppie: and GUI support :)
2016-01-06T17:34:52Z leppie: he is free to fork an experimental commit/build doing CPS, but like 10 times slower
2016-01-06T17:36:25Z leppie: not sure why he does not use any of the many interpreters available for .NET, many does proper call/cc
2016-01-06T17:36:41Z leppie: but probably slower than my CPS version :)
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2016-01-06T17:40:08Z leppie: i still take pride that I can do my entire bootstrap process in under 10 seconds (and that includes psyntax)
2016-01-06T17:40:44Z leppie: compiling 180 odd libraries included with IronScheme takes 22 od seconds to compile
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2016-01-06T17:41:19Z leppie: reloading all 180 compiled libs takes about 2 seconds
2016-01-06T17:41:46Z leppie: speed wins everytime :D
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2016-01-06T20:10:16Z wasamasa: nice
2016-01-06T20:10:45Z wasamasa: I've heard one of the differences between the JVM and CLR is that the CLR does much up-front optimization while the JVM is all about the JIT
2016-01-06T20:16:09Z jcowan: by up-front you mean in the C# or F# or B# compiler?
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2016-01-06T20:50:15Z mario-goulart: B# is a nice name for a C compiler.
2016-01-06T20:56:26Z jcowan chuckles.
2016-01-06T20:56:31Z jcowan: I meant VB.NET, of course
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2016-01-07T03:21:00Z qu1j0t3: wasamasa: well, neither is AOT, but there is a difference in *when* it decides to compile. Something like CLR does it immediately, first time, but the JVM waits for 10,000 iterations ... more or less.
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2016-01-07T05:32:42Z biubiubiu: rudybot: (+ 1 1)
2016-01-07T05:32:42Z rudybot: biubiubiu: your sandbox is ready
2016-01-07T05:32:43Z rudybot: biubiubiu: ; Value: 2
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2016-01-07T05:48:44Z n_blownapart: hi a quick question. I understand the programs on this paste, and understand what the base case is in each one, but please point out what the quoted text at the top of the paste is referring to. thank you ! http://pastie.org/10675333
2016-01-07T05:49:24Z n_blownapart: x in this case is o*
2016-01-07T05:52:41Z n_blownapart: ^ the book refers to the natural terminal condition, which I thought was zero in both programs ^^
2016-01-07T05:53:39Z n_blownapart: then it switches its language to 'the terminating line.'
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2016-01-07T14:00:24Z leppie: wasamasa: The C# compiler does not really do much optimization, it relies on the JIT mostly
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2016-01-07T15:26:37Z contrapunctus: o/
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2016-01-07T16:02:12Z tj_: yo, do you guys know of a nice symbolic computer algebra system for scheme, guile or mit? i went on the sicp quest, but i'd like to have one at my disposal before becoming a computer scientist to be able to write my own : ))
2016-01-07T16:02:58Z tj_: to rephrase, i love scheme, i need to solve equations and derrivatives, are there any modules that i can use?
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2016-01-07T16:13:44Z jcowan: I would think joining the MIT Scheme mailing list(s) and asking there would be the best bet, even if the system isn't actually for MIT Scheme.
2016-01-07T16:14:02Z jcowan: tj_: ^^
2016-01-07T16:16:30Z contrapunctus: Is there any extant, not-dead Scheme that has native threads?
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2016-01-07T16:20:56Z tj_: jcowan: yah, dope, i'm on it. can you recomend me an email service? i want to steer away from gmail, and this is the perfect time
2016-01-07T16:21:49Z jcowan: tj_: No; the one I use is by grace and favor.
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2016-01-07T16:22:26Z tj_: jcowan: that's soo cool : ))
2016-01-07T16:22:54Z jcowan: contrapunctus: Gauche, according to what it says on the tin.  I have never used them, though.
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2016-01-07T16:25:14Z contrapunctus: jcowan: Oh, I see. I searched on the scheme wiki, but just got the FAQ page.
2016-01-07T16:25:37Z jcowan: I simply googled for [scheme language native threads]
2016-01-07T16:26:02Z jcowan: Because in British English "scheme" is the equivalent of "plan", it's important to include "language" or some such word in order to limit search
2016-01-07T16:26:45Z contrapunctus: hm.
2016-01-07T16:26:53Z contrapunctus: Quacking failed me, this time.
2016-01-07T16:27:11Z zwdr: Racket has futures/places which use native threading as far as I know
2016-01-07T16:27:17Z zwdr: but I havent looked into it
2016-01-07T16:30:56Z contrapunctus: ah, sorry, I should've mentioned 'not counting Racket'
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2016-01-07T16:35:54Z zwdr: there's also chibi scheme, but I dont know if it uses green- or native threads
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2016-01-07T16:36:33Z jcowan: zwdr: Conceptually, Racket futures are more like promises than threads, and exploit hardware parallelism, not user-level concurrency.  Regular promises just sit there until you force them, whereas Racket futures, which could be called "eager promises", run as far as they safely can in parallel with the main program and stop when they get to a side effect or mucking with the current continuation.  They resume onlly when forced.
2016-01-07T16:36:49Z jcowan: zwdr: Green, but you can run multiple Chibi Scheme interpreters in native threads if you want.
2016-01-07T16:36:56Z jcowan: (sharing nothing)
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2016-01-07T16:37:21Z zwdr: oh, ok, thanks
2016-01-07T16:37:24Z zwdr: that was informative!
2016-01-07T16:37:31Z jcowan: Thanks.
2016-01-07T16:37:53Z jcowan: I will probably propose something like futures as a SRFI later, when I get past the current surfeit of SRFIs
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2016-01-07T16:39:29Z jcowan: or "semi-eager promises"
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2016-01-07T16:42:13Z zwdr: just read through SRFI-18, and it didnt seem to specifiy wether threads need to be implemented as native or green
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2016-01-07T16:47:03Z contrapunctus: jcowan: apparently guile has native threads too.
2016-01-07T16:47:26Z jcowan: Yeah, that makes sense given its tight integration with C.
2016-01-07T16:47:37Z jcowan: zwdr: No, that's deliberate ambiguity
2016-01-07T16:47:50Z zwdr: yea, I figured :3
2016-01-07T16:47:50Z taylan: contrapunctus: "too"?
2016-01-07T16:47:59Z contrapunctus: zwdr: it's Scheme, what did you expect?
2016-01-07T16:48:00Z jcowan: taylan: As well as Gauche, that is
2016-01-07T16:48:12Z contrapunctus ducks.
2016-01-07T16:48:14Z taylan: ah ok
2016-01-07T16:48:20Z zwdr: no no, it wasnt critique, it makes sense to keep it ambigious
2016-01-07T16:48:43Z taylan: (recently there was also talk of green threads in guile but AFAIK it's only in early progress)
2016-01-07T16:49:52Z contrapunctus: taylan: Is there any benefit to green threads? Other than to get threading on OSes that don't support it?
2016-01-07T16:50:31Z taylan: contrapunctus: IIRC less overhead in some ways
2016-01-07T16:50:53Z contrapunctus: hm.
2016-01-07T16:51:04Z zwdr: >Green threads significantly outperform Linux native threads on thread activation and synchronization
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2016-01-07T16:51:10Z zwdr: >Linux native threads have slightly better performance on I/O and context switching operations.
2016-01-07T16:51:10Z taylan: contrapunctus: especially, imagine you use 100 threads but only have 4 cores...
2016-01-07T16:51:57Z taylan: paying all that overhead for nothing.  green threads can just be mapped to OS threads too, AFAIK.
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2016-01-07T16:52:03Z jcowan: Ideally, you use green threads on top of native threads, so that if a green thread suspends itself, other threads continue running on a different native thread.
2016-01-07T16:52:28Z taylan: so you get the best of both worlds
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2016-01-07T16:52:42Z jcowan: that way you don't have painful convolutions about what can and cannot be done from green threads, or the need to write your Scheme implementation with async i/o everywhere
2016-01-07T16:53:40Z taylan: (I've never actually used green threads as far as I'm aware, let alone having implemented them, hence the spurious AFAIKs, IIRCs, and 'I think's. :P)
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2016-01-07T16:56:16Z contrapunctus: hm.
2016-01-07T16:56:29Z contrapunctus: thanks for the info, folks
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2016-01-07T18:17:50Z caoliver: jlongster, are you still doing anything with gambit/slime?
2016-01-07T18:18:50Z jlongster: caoliver: no, I am not. I still think it's cool but I haven't written gambit for a long time
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2016-01-07T18:26:25Z caoliver: Too bad.  Gambit's a nice Scheme, but it would be good to have up-to-date slime/emacs integration.
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2016-01-07T18:34:14Z jcowan: It would be good to everything everywhere, but 80+ Schemes is a bit ambitious
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2016-01-07T18:42:33Z caoliver: But likely only a subset worth bothering with.
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2016-01-07T18:47:46Z jcowan: Doubtless, but people don't agree on which subset.
2016-01-07T18:48:16Z jcowan: "All Christians agree that all Christians agree on the major points of their religion, and differ only on the minor points.  Unfortunately, they disagree on which points are major and which are minor."
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2016-01-07T18:50:41Z caoliver: Geiser has a pretty good handle on that, but it doesn't support Gambit which I think is a serious omission given Gabmit's performance.
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2016-01-07T19:02:40Z alezost: caoliver: I think you are welcome to add support for Gambit to Geiser
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2016-01-07T19:03:28Z caoliver: True, but I have a lot of stuff on my plate including being on one FOSS team already.
2016-01-07T19:04:37Z jcowan: Well, okay, Racket, Guile, and Chicken are major by anyone's standards (unless they are R6RS fanatics)
2016-01-07T19:04:46Z jcowan: see wingo's guide to interesting schemes
2016-01-07T19:04:49Z jcowan: (as in, may you live in)
2016-01-07T19:05:12Z jcowan: https://wingolog.org/archives/2013/01/07/an-opinionated-guide-to-scheme-implementations
2016-01-07T19:05:12Z rudybot: http://teensy.info/sbR7vrszxw
2016-01-07T19:06:28Z jcowan: chibi, chicken, gambit, racket, guile, racket, mit, racket, guile, chicken, guile, chez, gauche, kawa
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2016-01-07T19:09:03Z caoliver: I figure mit and racket are sort of their own thing.
2016-01-07T19:09:38Z jcowan: All Schemes are sort of their own thing
2016-01-07T19:09:55Z caoliver: Racket also has a lot of the stench of the r6rs strong-arming of feature (creep?), so I very much don't care about that.
2016-01-07T19:10:07Z mario-goulart: In fact, racket is not scheme, although there are scheme implementations on top of racket.
2016-01-07T19:10:23Z jcowan: Of my 50 installed Schemes, there is hardly one that does not have at least one big idiosyncrasy: none can be called boringly normal.
2016-01-07T19:10:39Z caoliver: Collect the set.
2016-01-07T19:11:04Z jcowan: mario-goulart: You could by the same token say that Guile is not Scheme, then
2016-01-07T19:11:09Z jcowan: caoliver: I have
2016-01-07T19:11:16Z zwdr: Racket is still pretty great though
2016-01-07T19:11:19Z mario-goulart: jcowan: what laguage is guile?
2016-01-07T19:11:26Z caoliver: I don't have that many: Gambit, stklos, bigloo, chibi, and guild 'cos it was bundles with slackware.
2016-01-07T19:11:38Z caoliver: guile
2016-01-07T19:11:55Z caoliver: bundled
2016-01-07T19:12:18Z jcowan: that's probably 1.x guile, which is a whole different thing from 2.x guile
2016-01-07T19:12:32Z jcowan: mario-goulart: Scheme or Elisp, whichever you care to use
2016-01-07T19:12:51Z jcowan: just as Racket is racket, or racket-base, or r5rs, or r6rs, or algol60, whichever you care to use.
2016-01-07T19:13:23Z zwdr: I think I like r7rs approach of a small and a big language
2016-01-07T19:13:24Z mario-goulart: I see Racket as a language, not as an implementation.
2016-01-07T19:13:25Z ecraven: is chez still in oracle limbo?
2016-01-07T19:13:49Z mario-goulart: I mean, there is Racket the language and Racket the implementation.  But the language is not Scheme.
2016-01-07T19:15:42Z jcowan: chez is in Cisco limbo
2016-01-07T19:15:57Z mario-goulart: At least that's what one of the authors say: http://lists.racket-lang.org/users/archive/2013-February/056343.html
2016-01-07T19:15:59Z wasamasa: is that worse?
2016-01-07T19:16:05Z jcowan: mario-goulart: Sure, but Racket-the-implementation provides several Schemes
2016-01-07T19:16:11Z jcowan: wasamasa: Probably
2016-01-07T19:16:26Z mario-goulart: jcowan: Agreed.
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2016-01-07T19:16:35Z jcowan: Why the hell should Cisco *ever* care about Chez?  Oracle hasn't killed Java or MySQL, after all
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2016-01-07T19:17:11Z Riastradh: Java and MySQL are of a little more value to many people than Chez is...
2016-01-07T19:17:24Z caoliver: I think there is much worse.  Consider Genera which may not be a great code base, but it is an interesting historical artifact.  I suspect I will die before it is seen by the general public legally.
2016-01-07T19:17:34Z mario-goulart: Cisco probably think "Why the hell people would *ever* care about a Scheme implementation". :-)
2016-01-07T19:17:49Z wasamasa: why the hell indeed
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2016-01-07T19:25:28Z jcowan: I was told personally by someone with reason to know that the ownership rights over Genera are so tangled, and the claim of "new Symbolics" to own it is so tenuous, that it only requires someone with the courage to say "Genera is free!"
2016-01-07T19:27:21Z caoliver: I thought there was an individual that holds the rights currently and gets some DOD money from OG licenses.
2016-01-07T19:27:44Z caoliver: Why they'd stick to creaky old hardware is to me a mystery though.
2016-01-07T19:28:09Z jcowan: There is an emulator for Alpha and for x86_64 now
2016-01-07T19:28:09Z caoliver briefly had an XL1201.  He wishes he still had the keyboard.
2016-01-07T19:28:39Z jcowan: caoliver: That's just it, he claims to hold the rights, but his claim is up there with SCO's claim to the System V Unix code base.
2016-01-07T19:29:24Z jcowan: whereas the grip of Cisco on Chez is unfortunately beyond doubt, and they can't even be bothered to let go.
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2016-01-07T22:01:24Z n_blownapart: hi I think I understand these programs well, but the text from the little schemer threw me off : lines 36-38 at bottom of paste. how does this differ from the base case of (zero? m) 0) : http://pastie.org/10676851  thanks for looking
2016-01-07T22:03:29Z n_blownapart: in math , I understand what an identity is , also ^
2016-01-07T22:03:45Z n_blownapart: I believe
2016-01-07T22:09:04Z n_blownapart: the book asks the question : what is the natural terminal condition for numbers, etc. so my question is simple I guess: where in the programs do we "always use 1 for the value of the terminating line."  ?
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2016-01-08T12:13:02Z jenenliu: hi, what interpreter do you guys use under OS X ?
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2016-01-09T04:41:20Z jusss: pjb: you are right, I was wrong, in yin-yang puzzle, the identifier is continuation and closure at the same time, so it can store the name space and what the next to do
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2016-01-09T07:49:14Z ai2d7: http://paste.ubuntu.com/14445236/
2016-01-09T07:49:24Z ai2d7: why it's different ?
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2016-01-09T15:34:48Z physixer: Need document/article listing the differences between R5RS and R7RS-small (the only difference I know is case-insensitivity)?
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2016-01-09T15:41:34Z physixer: I know racket's define-macro (or defmacro), but it's not in R7RS pdf (which has let-syntax, letrec-syntax, define-syntax, syntax-rules, ). What is going on? What are all these keywords? Also what are hygienic vs unhygienic macros? My head hurts.
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2016-01-09T15:51:22Z taylan: physixer: the RnRS only define hygienic macro systems
2016-01-09T15:51:35Z taylan: physixer: (well, syntax-case in R6RS allows you to break hygiene in a controlled way)
2016-01-09T15:52:32Z taylan: physixer: at the end of R7RS there's a list of changes from R5RS
2016-01-09T15:54:12Z physixer: taylan: yeah I located that list of changes in r7rs.pdf. However I'm not sure I can connect it to R5RS, probably because I'm learning scheme through the Fixnum book and it doesn't mention let-syntax, letrec-syntax, define-syntax, syntax-rules.
2016-01-09T15:54:25Z physixer: I don't even know if these 4 keywords are in R5RS or not, are they?
2016-01-09T15:55:10Z physixer: Fixnum books tries to teach from the pov of R5RS but then throws in MzScheme-specific stuff like define-macro.
2016-01-09T15:55:21Z physixer: *Fixnum book (not books)
2016-01-09T15:56:45Z taylan: physixer: R5RS has define-syntax, let-syntax, letrec-syntax, and syntax-rules, yes
2016-01-09T15:57:05Z physixer: ok thx.
2016-01-09T15:57:20Z taylan: these are the most basic macro features of standard Scheme.  would recommend learning syntax-rules.
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2016-01-09T21:30:45Z wasamasa: so, if I understand correctly, define-syntax and syntax-rules allow you to first specify all the special identifiers that will be replaced for you, then a form where these special identifiers are ignored or replaced
2016-01-09T21:31:00Z wasamasa: how does generating other data from these identifiers fit in?
2016-01-09T21:31:22Z wasamasa: I'm used to unhygienic macros where you'd just use ,@(concat "foo" bar) and go on with life
2016-01-09T21:34:19Z evhan: wasamasa: syntax-rules doesn't allow for this at all.
2016-01-09T21:35:41Z wasamasa: evhan: huh, ok
2016-01-09T21:36:12Z wasamasa: evhan: I thought it would just forbid exposing identifiers in unhygienic ways
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2016-01-09T22:09:44Z Guest45933: hello I'm following little schemer. the books say the order of the terminal condition matters, though in both racket and scheme the program returns false for either order, as it should . why? http://pastie.org/10680295
2016-01-09T22:10:52Z ecraven: Guest45933: the order of COND clauses definitely matters, the first one that matches is taken
2016-01-09T22:16:13Z pjb: when n=0 and m=0, (o> n m) should be #f; with the order ((zero? m) #t) ((zero? n) #f) we get #t, which is wrong.
2016-01-09T22:16:44Z pjb: with ((zero? n) #f) ((zero? m) #t)  we would get #f, which would be true.
2016-01-09T22:16:59Z pjb: I mean correct.
2016-01-09T22:17:26Z pjb: in general (o> x x) for any x>=0.
2016-01-09T22:17:53Z pjb: Guest45933: when you write test cases, you should always remember to test the limit cases.
2016-01-09T22:18:55Z pjb: When testing a comparison operator, you should test  with arguments that are << < = > >>, that is very smaller, smaller (including just one less), equal, bigger (including just one more), and very bigger.
2016-01-09T22:20:28Z pjb: So you should test for example: (o> 1 100) (o> 20 30) (o> 29 30) (o> 30 30) (o> 30 29) (o> 30 20) (o> 100 1) (o> 0 0) (o> 1 0) (o> 0 1) (o> 0 0) (o> 10 0) (o> 0 10).
2016-01-09T22:24:23Z Guest45933: ecraven, pjb sorry I didn't mean to say "as it should" .. please let me regroup. thanks
2016-01-09T22:26:17Z Guest45933: the result is the same for both o> and o< when run in either scheme or racket. regardless of the order of the base case, the result is correct.
2016-01-09T22:26:52Z Guest45933: *the order of the conditionals as in the paste. pjb ecraven
2016-01-09T22:29:08Z Guest45933: I'm working on your kind responses ^
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2016-01-09T22:33:47Z Guest45933: thanks very much pjb ecraven it turned out I had a bloody typo. (line 15 was > and not o>)
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2016-01-10T16:03:11Z physixer: is there a good read-up on call/cc ... not beginner but various things you can do with it, practice examples, etc, etc?
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2016-01-10T16:03:40Z physixer: essentially a good read-up on continuations as well (I know the basics but looking to develop skills to think in terms of continuations)
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2016-01-10T17:00:03Z taylan: physixer: I'd look into delimited continuations.  they kind of obsolete call/cc.
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2016-01-10T17:08:47Z physixer: cool
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2016-01-10T17:37:55Z physixer: I just read this [1] and I'm not convinced. ([1]: http://okmij.org/ftp/continuations/against-callcc.html)
2016-01-10T17:38:33Z wasamasa: let's use monads as generic abstraction algorithm because moar power is better
2016-01-10T17:39:06Z physixer: If Oleg had suggested a generic delimited continuation as an alternative, his argument would've been stronger.
2016-01-10T17:39:40Z physixer: Instead he's asking to remove call/cc, and then "start a research program" to explore what kind of control primitives are out there. What?
2016-01-10T17:40:40Z physixer: The best I can take from his article is that "call/cc is a research primitive and should not be used for production code development."
2016-01-10T17:41:04Z physixer: "should not", not "must not".
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2016-01-10T19:27:58Z physixer: I'm reading the first lambda paper in this list: http://library.readscheme.org/page1.html
2016-01-10T19:28:21Z physixer: So 'scheme' is a LISP-like language with side-effects, multiprocessing, and process-synchronization
2016-01-10T19:29:01Z physixer: I assume multiprocessing and process-synchronization are stuff life call/cc, CPS etc. Side-effects is ASET.
2016-01-10T19:29:50Z physixer: And then it mentions LISP already has SET. Also I doubt CPS and call/cc are the defining features of scheme (Oleg even wants call/cc removed).
2016-01-10T19:30:12Z physixer: So what was the point of SCHEME when we already had LISP in 1975, again?
2016-01-10T19:32:17Z physixer: not to mention who says call/cc and CPS like stuff couldn't be done in LISP?
2016-01-10T19:35:33Z ecraven: wasn't Scheme one of the first with lexical scope?
2016-01-10T19:35:53Z ecraven: also maybe one of the first Lisp-1?
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2016-01-10T19:50:32Z physixer: I guess in retrospect lexical-scoping and namespace-unification (lisp-1) are the two most important contributions by scheme.
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2016-01-10T19:51:57Z physixer: And probably it would not be acceptable by lisp diehards in 1975 to have 'lisp' in the new language which would appear (to them) to have no resemblance to their lisp, so the name had to be different.
2016-01-10T19:52:44Z physixer: But I don't like that the first lambda papers mentions a whole bunch of less important stuff in the front page, and doesn't come clean about the motivations (it appears to me).
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2016-01-10T19:52:52Z physixer: *the first lambda paper
2016-01-10T19:53:49Z physixer: there might've been sociopolitical reasons. As always, sociopolitics works to the detriment of intellectual honesty.
2016-01-10T19:53:58Z physixer: and true science.
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2016-01-10T20:05:27Z pierpa: the point of scheme wrt old lisps is proper tail recursion
2016-01-10T20:06:46Z pierpa: call/cc is an added thing that people noticed could be had for free once they had proper TR
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2016-01-11T00:42:38Z qu1j0t3: also Scheme introduced a practical implementation of lexical scope
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2016-01-11T04:14:29Z zacts: hi schemers
2016-01-11T04:17:51Z lastack99: yo wusup
2016-01-11T04:18:45Z lastack99: im going through htdp book 1 right now, hooked 5 minutes into it.
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2016-01-11T04:22:04Z zacts: yo
2016-01-11T04:22:07Z zacts: cool
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2016-01-11T04:44:22Z contrapunctus: o/
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2016-01-11T04:49:53Z qu1j0t3:  \o
2016-01-11T04:53:01Z contrapunctus wants to ping a particular developer present in this channel, but it's not directly related to Scheme (although it's a Scheme project), plus they wonder if it would be good etiquette.
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2016-01-11T04:55:19Z Riastradh: Best to just ask the question, naming the party you expect to be interested if any.
2016-01-11T04:56:22Z contrapunctus: (holy crap) hi Riastradh . Thanks, will do.
2016-01-11T04:58:08Z Riastradh: ...Hi?  What's holy crap?
2016-01-11T04:59:19Z contrapunctus: (* holy crap it's Riastradh themselves)
2016-01-11T05:01:58Z contrapunctus: nalaginrut: Hi, I happened to read criticism of the Artanis website - if you like, I could help fix up any language-related stuff. (I figured I'd send a PR directly, but couldn't find any repository for the website itself.)
2016-01-11T05:03:18Z nalaginrut: contrapunctus:  first, thanks for contribution ;-)
2016-01-11T05:04:22Z nalaginrut: contrapunctus:  and for website, please take a look at here https://github.com/nalaginrut/artanis/tree/gh-pages
2016-01-11T05:04:52Z nalaginrut: contrapunctus:  please do not modify the page directly, since it's generated by a static page generator
2016-01-11T05:05:57Z nalaginrut: contrapunctus:  and for the manual, please take a look at here: https://github.com/NalaGinrut/artanis/blob/gh-pages/docs/manual.org
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2016-01-11T05:06:29Z nalaginrut: it's org-mode, so all the docs format (texinfo, html...) are generated by it
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2016-01-11T05:07:47Z contrapunctus: nalaginrut: huh, I searched for text from the website and it didn't point me to /tree/gh-pages . odd. okay, thanks, I'll get on it :)
2016-01-11T05:08:32Z nalaginrut: last time someone submitted a patch for manual.texi, it can't be applied directly, although I apply it manually by editing manual.org. I hope this won't happen anymore, but anyway, the patch is very nice ;-P
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2016-01-11T05:17:11Z nalaginrut: contrapunctus:  I'll update README for hacking introduction
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2016-01-11T06:15:52Z lastack99: my texi2pdf of the manual looks nice, thanks for exposing me to Artanis, I like it
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2016-01-11T07:15:17Z nalaginrut: to whom interested in contributing, I've updated README https://github.com/NalaGinrut/artanis/blob/master/README.md
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2016-01-11T07:37:24Z kephra: nalaginrut, sounds interesting
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2016-01-11T15:42:35Z izwyt: is there anyone use racket here ?
2016-01-11T15:43:35Z zwdr: yes, there's also a #racket channel ;3
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2016-01-11T15:44:28Z izwyt: I ask a question in #racket, it seems no one is online
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2016-01-11T15:44:48Z izwyt: how to make a trigger for Enter key with callback	in text-field% ?
2016-01-11T15:45:17Z zwdr: oh
2016-01-11T15:45:21Z izwyt: I try write a simple chat program with racket GUI library
2016-01-11T15:45:25Z zwdr: hmmhm, I never done GUI programming in Racket
2016-01-11T15:46:06Z izwyt: I first use GUI in racket today
2016-01-11T15:46:25Z izwyt: I use GUI in racket first day
2016-01-11T15:46:33Z izwyt: my bad english
2016-01-11T15:46:53Z zwdr: :3
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2016-01-11T16:02:35Z Mokuso: So...this is the first day you're using GUI in racket.
2016-01-11T16:02:50Z Mokuso: Unfortunately I don't have much experience with GUI either
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2016-01-12T02:05:13Z nanoz: how many to many is different from one to many
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2016-01-12T02:39:32Z qu1j0t3: nanoz: Do you understand one to many?
2016-01-12T02:39:42Z qu1j0t3: nanoz: (also, not sure why you're asking in _here_)
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2016-01-12T02:52:53Z turbofail: probably mixed this up with a "schema" channel or something
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2016-01-12T04:18:21Z qu1j0t3: turbofail: ha, didn't think of that
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2016-01-12T19:08:49Z jcowan: Does syntax-parameters have known disadvantages that have prevented them from spreading beyond Racket?
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2016-01-12T19:14:03Z taylan: jcowan: Guile has syntax parameters...
2016-01-12T19:14:13Z taylan: (info "(guile) Syntax Parameters")
2016-01-12T19:14:23Z jcowan: ooh, excellent
2016-01-12T19:14:47Z jcowan: Do you know what they are built on top of?
2016-01-12T19:14:47Z taylan: or http://www.gnu.org/software/guile/manual/html_node/Syntax-Parameters.html
2016-01-12T19:14:55Z jcowan: yeah, reading it
2016-01-12T19:15:09Z taylan: hmm, maybe psyntax supports them?
2016-01-12T19:15:22Z jcowan: syntax-case, okay
2016-01-12T19:15:38Z jcowan: be good to know if they can be supported on top of syntactic closures or ER
2016-01-12T19:15:51Z jcowan: it would be even better if syntax-case and syntactic closures did not have the same acronym
2016-01-12T19:16:03Z taylan: (oh right, I figure syntax-case can just implement them...)
2016-01-12T19:17:22Z taylan: I really wish we could just settle on syntax-case and move on :(
2016-01-12T19:17:36Z taylan: I figure Chickeneers and possibly others would be against it...
2016-01-12T19:19:30Z jcowan: Way too many people think syntax-case is just too baroque, although simplified versions of it exist at least hypothetically
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2016-01-12T19:19:51Z jcowan: Will Clinger thinks syntactic closures are too baroque, indeed
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2016-01-12T19:20:29Z jcowan: Looks like IronScheme might have syntax-params too
2016-01-12T19:22:39Z Riastradh: I recall chandler, eli, and I had an argument some years ago over whether name injection or syntax-parameters were more hygienic, i.e. composable, in which my recollection was that chandler and I concluded that name injection had better composability properties.
2016-01-12T19:22:55Z Riastradh: ...for, e.g., a `self' parameter in your favourite single-dispatch gizmo.
2016-01-12T19:25:58Z jcowan: IronScheme's are a little different, in that they don't seem to work when not bound
2016-01-12T19:26:10Z jcowan: Riastradh: pointer to name injection?  I'm not familiar with it.
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2016-01-12T19:27:40Z jcowan: sweet.js supports syntax parameters too
2016-01-12T19:30:39Z Riastradh: I mean the usual `controlled non-hygiene' device to bind a name not specified in the macro's use.
2016-01-12T19:31:11Z Riastradh: In syntax-casese: (with-syntax ((self (syntax->datum ctx #'self))) (syntax (lambda (self) ...))
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2016-01-12T19:36:25Z jcowan: Ah.  Thanks.
2016-01-12T19:37:33Z Riastradh: Do you have a better name for that?
2016-01-12T19:40:03Z jcowan: "Abomination"?
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2016-01-13T21:30:36Z jackdaniel: mrowe: could you disable nick change on away?
2016-01-13T21:33:08Z mrowe: jackdaniel: hmm,  I thought I had. stupid bouncer. I'll see what I can do...
2016-01-13T21:33:15Z jackdaniel: thanks :)
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2016-01-14T04:22:02Z n_blownapart: hi on this paste, line 21's output is '(the world) . That is the final recursion from line 10 ((sub1 1) = 0 here) and the base case is never implimented, correct? thank you : http://pastie.org/10688467
2016-01-14T04:22:57Z n_blownapart: i.e on the last recursion, n = 0 but does not call the base case . ^
2016-01-14T04:24:13Z n_blownapart: Also, I assume that line 16 is technically not a recursion. ^
2016-01-14T04:27:54Z n_blownapart: my question is, if the above statements are correct. thanks
2016-01-14T04:28:46Z qu1j0t3: The base case is evaluated. Otherwise you would not get an answer. (You'd run out of stack.)
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2016-01-14T04:33:11Z n_blownapart: qu1j0t3, thanks so much. hold on, because if the base case is evaluated, then (cdr lat) is returned, and that would be the end. So when does (cons (car lat) prepend the first few positions of atoms, after line 7 returns (cdr lat) ?
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2016-01-14T04:34:56Z qu1j0t3: When the base case is evaluated, a list is produced, which is fed into the deferred CONS on lines 9/10.
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2016-01-14T04:35:26Z qu1j0t3: You can prove to yourself that the base case is evaluated through tracing by hand... the mechanical trace output may not make it clear.
2016-01-14T04:35:50Z n_blownapart: thanks one second please qu1j0t3
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2016-01-14T04:38:52Z n_blownapart: so whether the resultant (cdr lat) is fed from line 10 or the base case line 7, cons will take the (cdr lat) and prepend,  because (cdr lat) has been "fed" as you say.
2016-01-14T04:38:59Z n_blownapart: qu1j0t3, ^
2016-01-14T04:41:10Z qu1j0t3: yes.
2016-01-14T04:41:35Z qu1j0t3: when the function is invoked, only one of these cases can follow, depending on the value of n (although it's n-1 that is tested)
2016-01-14T04:44:28Z n_blownapart: thank you, that is interesting. so the recursion brings n to zero ultimately, the program flow goes to the base case equaling zero, (cdr lat) is returned, but the implicit cons function can still operate although in a sense the program terminates at the base case line.
2016-01-14T04:44:31Z n_blownapart: qu1j0t3, ^
2016-01-14T04:44:49Z turbofail: the program doesn't terminate at the base case line
2016-01-14T04:45:14Z qu1j0t3: what turbofail said. You still have a stack of deferred computations (the CONS)
2016-01-14T04:46:22Z n_blownapart: right, ok so the logic flow skips back down to line 9-10. I was thinking that line 7 being true, that it could only return (cdr lat) and end the program. but that is not true.
2016-01-14T04:46:43Z n_blownapart: *but that is not correct
2016-01-14T04:46:47Z qu1j0t3: well, it returns to the CONS in the next outer evaluation.
2016-01-14T04:47:14Z n_blownapart: please elaborate on 'outer' in this case.
2016-01-14T04:47:16Z qu1j0t3: i.e. this function produces a value for the base case, then the outer evaluation proceeds, produces a value via CONS, and returns that list to the next outer, and so on.
2016-01-14T04:47:36Z qu1j0t3: the caller.
2016-01-14T04:47:44Z qu1j0t3: you might want to trace this by hand on a small list
2016-01-14T04:48:06Z turbofail: n_blownapart: i believe we discussed the substitution model of evaluation previously
2016-01-14T04:48:50Z turbofail: n_blownapart: if you step through it that way you'll see why there are outer invocations "waiting" to be finished
2016-01-14T04:49:10Z n_blownapart: yeah I remember substitution , and.....
2016-01-14T04:50:13Z n_blownapart: here I am just trying to get the program flow. so does an 'outer evaluation' translate as the program flow being passed back to the cons function to finish the 'building up' of the lat?
2016-01-14T04:51:06Z turbofail: yes.  it can't finish the cons until it has finished the recursive call
2016-01-14T04:52:13Z turbofail: remember, the evaluation strategy is always to try and run the argument expressions first, and then try and run the function call
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2016-01-14T04:53:45Z n_blownapart: ok thanks turbofail qu1j0t3 ... one last thing : does  "until it has finished the recursive call" mean that the last part of the recursive call happens sequentially after the base case line is evaluated?
2016-01-14T04:54:21Z n_blownapart: for lack of a better way to say it.
2016-01-14T04:54:25Z qu1j0t3: well, from the processor's point of view, yes, it is the next thing to be evaluated.
2016-01-14T04:55:03Z qu1j0t3: evaluation is like that. If I hand you a long expression, you will serialise it into simple operations, even if it is recursive.
2016-01-14T04:55:55Z qu1j0t3: but the EXPRESSION of it (the visible source) is recursive and not "unrolled".
2016-01-14T04:57:07Z turbofail: n_blownapart: are you doing this for a berkeley class?
2016-01-14T04:57:17Z n_blownapart: right qu1j0t3 , (rempick 1 '(over the world) recurses one more time, reaches zero, is passed to line 7, then the cdr lat is actually passed back to "finish the recursive call" and do the cons-ing.
2016-01-14T04:58:12Z n_blownapart: turbofail, no its just how I think. I apologize, I just need to feel I understand what is happening in this way, otherwise *I won't remember it.*
2016-01-14T04:58:45Z turbofail: n_blownapart: i mean are you learning scheme for a berkeley class
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2016-01-14T05:01:17Z n_blownapart: no, I work at uc berkeley though as I may have mentioned. I'm just doing the little schemer book, which doesn't lend much explanation.
2016-01-14T05:01:41Z n_blownapart: one day I'll know it from the "processor's point of view."
2016-01-14T05:01:47Z turbofail: ah
2016-01-14T05:02:29Z n_blownapart: thanks very much I got a lot out of that.
2016-01-14T05:03:12Z turbofail: np
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2016-01-14T05:27:11Z russellw: I'm looking for something perhaps slightly unusual. You know the way a lot of the scheme library functions can actually be written in scheme? Are there any open source implementations of such, that are complete but not heavily optimized?
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2016-01-14T05:27:57Z russellw: That is, production quality implementations tend to be heavily optimized with lots of C involved, so not so easy to read, and tutorial examples leave out a lot of required features
2016-01-14T05:31:05Z russellw: What I'm trying to do right now is write a scheme parser that can read the entire language (plus some extensions), would be nice if I could snarf and modify an existing implementation of 'read'
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2016-01-14T05:43:55Z turbofail: hm.  this one isn't quite complete as it doesn't have the syntax-quote and syntax-quasiquote bits, but it's at least a decent starting point - https://github.com/melvinzhang/bit-scheme/blob/master/reader.scm
2016-01-14T05:45:02Z turbofail: well hm not quite because it also doesn't support reading floating point numbers
2016-01-14T05:45:46Z russellw: Thanks! - Right, I was just thinking that, the numbers are one of the trickier parts. But it does confirm my understanding of the basics
2016-01-14T05:46:27Z turbofail: oh actually there's a reference implementation http://www.r6rs.org/refimpl/r6rs-reader.tar.gz
2016-01-14T05:46:54Z russellw: ah, great! thanks!
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2016-01-15T05:46:01Z jenia: hello
2016-01-15T05:46:51Z jenia: I'm going through Pattern Matching in SICP. Here is an implementation: http://rajiv.sg/blog/2012/07/01/sicp-pattern-matching-and-rule-based-substitution-lecture-with-mit-scheme/.
2016-01-15T05:46:53Z rudybot: http://teensy.info/dNqu3695Lo
2016-01-15T05:47:37Z jenia: I want to ask, on line 131, how does `map` work. Like, I know that it will return a list. But, try rules takes one expression. How does that work?
2016-01-15T05:48:39Z jenia: okay. I got it. One of the rules can work on a list
2016-01-15T05:48:43Z jenia: got it ;)
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2016-01-15T17:01:03Z zacts: https://vimeo.com/151465912
2016-01-15T17:01:10Z zacts: ^ a new talk by Gerald J. Sussman
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2016-01-15T17:21:30Z davexunit: there's some great stuff in this one
2016-01-15T17:21:49Z davexunit: a lot of what he's talked about before, but some new insights and funny quotes
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2016-01-15T18:01:13Z Mokuso: I thought he always wore that cool hat
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2016-01-15T18:51:37Z jcowan: Cool hat or not, it was a great talk
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2016-01-15T20:09:49Z pjb: Mokuso: no, the chechia is only worn to enounce very important theorems.
2016-01-15T20:11:14Z pjb: Mokuso: or to sing bambino: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xGKowUNYrKA
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2016-01-16T18:06:44Z wlad: Hi guys, can someone help me with explaining a difference between two SICP problems?
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2016-01-16T18:19:32Z z0d: wlad: shoot
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2016-01-16T18:24:54Z wlad:  Ok, so there're tasks 1.17 and 1.18.  1.18 mentions 1.16, but it isn't very pertinent though. Here's text: http://pastebin.com/Q5S8qbf9
2016-01-16T18:24:54Z wlad: <wlad> I've solved 1.17, but I'm confused how is it different from what is considered a common answer to 1.18 on the web
2016-01-16T18:24:54Z wlad: <wlad> 1/17 solution : http://community.schemewiki.org/?sicp-ex-1.17
2016-01-16T18:24:54Z wlad: <wlad> 1.18: http://community.schemewiki.org/?sicp-ex-1.18
2016-01-16T18:24:55Z wlad: <wlad> How's adding "accumulator" makes it different in space complexity sense?
2016-01-16T18:24:57Z wlad: <wlad> That's how I've done 1.17: http://pastebin.com/X2DAS6ZL
2016-01-16T18:24:59Z wlad: <wlad> Given that scheme interpreter performs tail recursion elimination, how's my (or linked) solution for 1.17 different from 1.18?
2016-01-16T18:25:02Z wlad: Ooops, sorry
2016-01-16T18:25:04Z wlad: Just a sec
2016-01-16T18:25:08Z wlad:  Ok, so there're tasks 1.17 and 1.18.  1.18 mentions 1.16, but it isn't very pertinent though. Here's text: http://pastebin.com/Q5S8qbf9
2016-01-16T18:25:18Z wlad:  I've solved 1.17, but I'm confused how is it different from what is considered a common answer to 1.18 on the web
2016-01-16T18:25:21Z wlad:  1/17 solution : http://community.schemewiki.org/?sicp-ex-1.17
2016-01-16T18:25:24Z wlad:  1.18: http://community.schemewiki.org/?sicp-ex-1.18
2016-01-16T18:25:36Z wlad:  How's adding "accumulator" makes it different in space complexity sense?
2016-01-16T18:25:42Z wlad:  That's how I've done 1.17: http://pastebin.com/X2DAS6ZL
2016-01-16T18:25:46Z wlad:  Given that scheme interpreter performs tail recursion elimination, how's my (or linked) solution for 1.17 different from 1.18?
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2016-01-16T21:16:54Z n_blownapart: hello a member here told me the '(else (cond' use on line 8 is a "headache" to read, and I was able to use a simple '(else' statement for a number of prior examples...but in the following example the (else doesn't work alone. Please explain, thanks: http://pastie.org/10692192
2016-01-16T21:21:50Z lambda-11235: n_blownapart: (else (cond is redundant, as cond can take any number of forms.
2016-01-16T21:23:05Z lambda-11235: Your statement looks like (cond (test1 expr1) (else (cond (test2 expr2) (else expr3))), which can be rewritten as
2016-01-16T21:23:36Z lambda-11235: (cond (test1 expr1) (test2 expr2) (else expr3))
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2016-01-16T21:25:32Z n_blownapart: lambda-11235, thanks alot I
2016-01-16T21:25:43Z n_blownapart: *I'm working on that.
2016-01-16T21:27:32Z lambda-11235: n_blownapart: np.
2016-01-16T21:29:55Z n_blownapart: it's odd lambda-11235 , the little schemer uses the (else (cond construct there. I guess it involves racket or other unknowns
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2016-01-16T21:32:12Z lambda-11235: n_blownapart: Someone else was complaining about that (or maybe it was (cond (else ...))) a while ago.
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2016-01-16T21:33:36Z n_blownapart: it does work with the line gone altogether...thanks again
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2016-01-16T22:37:07Z dos: Hi, if I learn scheme I can use racket or other implementations without problems? I am new and lost with standars and implementations
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2016-01-16T22:45:33Z wasamasa: racket is a scheme-inspired language
2016-01-16T22:45:44Z wasamasa: racket is also a platform for writing racket, scheme, brainfuck, ...
2016-01-16T22:46:42Z dos: so racket is not scheme ?
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2016-01-16T22:54:23Z wasamasa: the racket language is not scheme, no
2016-01-16T22:55:19Z wasamasa: in the name of practicality, they've left adherence to standards behind
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2016-01-17T00:17:24Z qu1j0t3: you can use Racket in a compliant mode, which should be fine for learning Scheme or even doing SICP.
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2016-01-17T02:06:03Z eli: wasamasa: nonsense; in the name of non-practicality, "Scheme" chose to stagnate, then a brief period of activity was declared a collective brain-fart followed by a "let's dump it all and restart"
2016-01-17T02:06:05Z eli: the points of non-adherence are in fact widely considered as good ideas, modulo the explicit-vs-implicit import level which has since become moot since the new Scheme is apparently afraid of non-syntax-rules macro
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2016-01-17T02:35:32Z jcowan: hey ho
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2016-01-17T03:37:43Z Nairod: hello
2016-01-17T03:39:20Z Nairod: I have a question concerning syntax-case, how to properly define cases to match sub pattern in an expression and validate an expression as a whole to describe syntax in a BNF like way?
2016-01-17T03:40:22Z Nairod: ex for a module syntax:     module <import-clauses> <export-clauses> <definitions>
2016-01-17T03:41:01Z Nairod: <import-clauses>  (import id ...) ...
2016-01-17T03:41:18Z Nairod: <export-clauses> (export id ...) ...
2016-01-17T03:41:47Z Nairod: <definitions> (define (id params ...) expr exprs ...) ...
2016-01-17T03:42:19Z Nairod: I didn't find any clear example of it
2016-01-17T03:42:55Z Nairod: If someone has an idea let me know please
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2016-01-17T04:00:59Z Nairod: I think I found it
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2016-01-17T11:54:48Z calher: Has anyone looked at GuixSD?  It's Scheme-powered?+
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2016-01-17T12:08:58Z jackdaniel: calher: yes, scheme is a configuration / packaging language
2016-01-17T12:09:53Z calher: Oops.  I meant to say "It's Scheme-powered!"
2016-01-17T12:11:05Z jackdaniel: :)
2016-01-17T12:12:13Z calher: I'm experimenting with Guix and may start using GuixSD.
2016-01-17T12:12:21Z calher: So everything is done in Scheme.
2016-01-17T12:12:57Z jackdaniel: I'd use guixsd, but I have not time to replace blob-free kernel so it can play nice with my wifi
2016-01-17T12:13:02Z jackdaniel: s/not/no/
2016-01-17T12:14:17Z calher: OMG, that's so evil.
2016-01-17T12:14:34Z calher: If I had the money, I'd mail you a WiFi adapter.
2016-01-17T12:14:48Z calher: The small one is not that expensive.
2016-01-17T12:15:11Z calher: http://fsf.org/ryf
2016-01-17T12:18:04Z jackdaniel: I'm aware of this certificate, I'm planning to certify device I'm building with it :) but regarding my laptop, I think it would be a waste to not use the hardware I have
2016-01-17T12:30:35Z calher: jackdaniel: The laptop I'm using has a non-free WiFi card.  Since it didn't work with Trisquel's version of Linux, I got a WiFi card that was compatible.
2016-01-17T12:30:53Z calher: It's not a waste to reject non-free software.
2016-01-17T12:34:58Z jackdaniel: I'm a proponent of the foss software (I maintain some myself), but I disagree with this statement – even fsf endorsed hardware uses processors with the closed microcode
2016-01-17T12:35:35Z jackdaniel: how's this different from using integrated radio chips with the producent firmware?
2016-01-17T12:37:27Z jackdaniel: and I believe that this is offtopic here. sorry. we may continue on /query window if you are interested
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2016-01-17T13:15:29Z calher: With having non-free firmware and drivers in the kernel to support devices, it then becomes the operating system's responsibility.  It's not perfect to have non-free microcode and other things that run on external devices, but it's a big step backward to have your OS go out of its way to load non-free code on the bad device's behalf.  The bad device should at least take care of itself.
2016-01-17T13:15:46Z calher: That's all I'm going to say.  For more, go to #fsf.
2016-01-17T13:21:48Z pjb: Sounds good.
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2016-01-17T22:55:22Z AlphaFuze: Beginner here looking for a little bit of advice from those who have more experience than me.  I'm interested in learning scheme because it is a lisp dialect and I figure I'll learn important concepts relating to functional programming.
2016-01-17T22:55:24Z AlphaFuze: Right now, I've installed racket ide and i've been working through a scheme textbook using the r5rs language.  For those of you who already know scheme, do you recommend learning racket first, or sticking with r5rs?  is racket something I should learn after I've learned r5rs?
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2016-01-17T23:24:25Z Menche: the latest is actually r7rs
2016-01-17T23:26:52Z Menche: I'm still learning scheme, but I think it'd make sense to stick with the standard as much as possible
2016-01-17T23:28:03Z Menche: the standard is quite minimal, though
2016-01-17T23:28:21Z Menche: may need the extensions of racket or another implementation for some things
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2016-01-18T02:16:01Z n_blownapart: hi on line 8 the line is written to return #f. When line 8 is commented out, the program works for every comparison. Why is this line included, or written this way? thanks. : https://www.refheap.com/113773
2016-01-18T02:17:06Z n_blownapart: ^ this is a book example
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2016-01-18T02:44:32Z pierpa: n_blownapart: see my note in #racket
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2016-01-18T12:19:18Z waressearcher2: so "racket" is sort of fork of "scheme" why it wasn't enough "scheme" to create another form of lisp ?
2016-01-18T12:22:35Z Mokuso: why create another form of lisp?
2016-01-18T12:22:52Z Mokuso: when you already have scheme, haskell
2016-01-18T12:25:43Z waressearcher2: Mokuso: why you bring haskell here ?
2016-01-18T12:30:12Z Mokuso: I guess that was a mistake
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2016-01-18T12:43:46Z waressearcher2: Mokuso: no you said "haskell" why ?
2016-01-18T12:44:32Z waressearcher2: you can't simply say "haskell"
2016-01-18T12:45:03Z waressearcher2: now imagine picture of Boromir
2016-01-18T12:46:22Z Mokuso: I like huskies and it sounds similar
2016-01-18T12:48:56Z waressearcher2:  /join huskies
2016-01-18T12:49:08Z Mokuso: thanks, I will
2016-01-18T12:49:38Z waressearcher2: this time I will let you get away with that
2016-01-18T12:50:10Z Mokuso: Any other words that are forbidden in this channel? Are they written on the topic perhaps?
2016-01-18T12:51:18Z waressearcher2: no
2016-01-18T12:52:50Z Mokuso: No to both questions ?
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2016-01-18T16:37:43Z crispo: any TinySchemers about?
2016-01-18T16:38:34Z crispo: can't figure out where the computation result gets printed (if anywhere) when I use scheme_load_string
2016-01-18T16:39:27Z crispo: if I'm just doing a REPL with scheme_set_input_port_file(..., stdin) then result is going to stdout as expected
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2016-01-18T22:58:06Z Matt3o12_2: Hey. I need to create a hash set for a very long word list 28M. I wrote this scheme code to do that: http://pastebin.com/LJQRsKqH. However, it takes a lot of tine and a huge amount of memory (more then 1GB). If I do that in python, it takes less then a second. What am I doing wrong in scheme?
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2016-01-18T23:55:08Z jcowan: Matt3o12_2: You should probably ask in a Racket-specific place such as #racket or a Racket mailing list, since hash sets are not a standardized Scheme component.
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2016-01-19T01:38:14Z n_blownapart: hello groveling for some more help. I cannot follow this code with the two recursions. please help me understand lines 16 - 18. thanks https://www.refheap.com/113813
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2016-01-19T01:41:26Z cojy: the indentation being so off doesn't help
2016-01-19T01:42:03Z cojy: https://www.refheap.com/113814
2016-01-19T01:42:14Z n_blownapart: thanks cojy working...
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2016-01-19T01:45:10Z n_blownapart: I would appreciate being walked through lines 16 - 18 cojy et al.
2016-01-19T01:45:32Z cojy: in the 15-16 case you have: (atom? (car l)) == #t and (eq? (car l) a) == #f, which means it's atom so we need to check if we are removing it, and it's not the element we want to remove so we are ultimately not going to remove it
2016-01-19T01:46:02Z cojy: hence in the first case of the cond on like 14, the car is  omitted, on the second case in 15-16 we are keeping it cons'd along
2016-01-19T01:46:51Z n_blownapart: you are talking about the first instance of 'cup', correct?
2016-01-19T01:46:57Z cojy: in 17-18 you have (atom? (car l)) == #f so there's no point in even checking if we want to remove the car because it's not the atom we are looking to remove, but we need to recur o nboth and make sure it's not contained in them
2016-01-19T01:47:35Z n_blownapart: thanks very much cojy. hold on I need to process that much.
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2016-01-19T02:01:46Z n_blownapart: cojy I understand the first two posts you made, but not the one re: lines 17-18. may I trouble you to reword your last post?
2016-01-19T02:02:32Z cojy: those line (cons (rember* a (car l)) (rember* a (cdr l)))
2016-01-19T02:02:45Z cojy: "pull apart the cons cell we are ooking at, and recur on both sides of it"
2016-01-19T02:02:57Z cojy: putting the two new sides we are making back into a new one
2016-01-19T02:03:52Z cojy: might be more clear as (let ((new-car (rember* a (car l))) (new-cdr (rember* a (cdr l)))) (cons new-car new-cdr)
2016-01-19T02:04:16Z n_blownapart: oh man hold on I'm confused. sorry
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2016-01-19T02:14:31Z n_blownapart: cojy thanks : I am attempting to understand this from the trace output (listed here:)  https://www.refheap.com/113817 what line in the program is responsible for the output lines 23 - 24
2016-01-19T02:15:08Z n_blownapart: correction 23 -27 ^
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2016-01-19T02:19:26Z cojy: n_blownapart: tracing cons here too will help
2016-01-19T02:19:36Z cojy: https://www.refheap.com/113818
2016-01-19T02:20:30Z cojy: its going through all of the cases, not any specific one
2016-01-19T02:20:46Z cojy: it'd be too tedius to list out each case but you could just use display on the cases to do that
2016-01-19T02:24:23Z cojy: you can also step through it with the drracket debugger
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2016-01-19T02:26:53Z n_blownapart: very sorry cojy I need to ask you in this way: which (line's) recursion extracts the atom coffee out of it's nested list () ?
2016-01-19T02:27:27Z n_blownapart: I believe it is the last line of the code.
2016-01-19T02:28:48Z n_blownapart: or is that wrong?
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2016-01-19T02:46:52Z n_blownapart: cojy I think I get it. (coffee) is not an atom, so it doesn't get evaluated until line 17, where it is consed. please reply if that is true, and I can move on. thanks kindly !
2016-01-19T02:48:03Z cojy: line 17 on which paste, it changed ab it:p
2016-01-19T02:50:16Z n_blownapart: line 19 on the last paste .
2016-01-19T02:53:17Z cojy: 1. whole list hits case on 19, resulting in (cons (recur '(coffee)) ...)
2016-01-19T02:53:35Z cojy:  2.  '(coffee) hits the case on line 17-18, which results in (cons 'coffee (recur '())
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2016-01-19T02:54:41Z cojy: 3 '() finally hits the case on 13 and leave you to finish (cons '(coffee) (recur ...)) step 1
2016-01-19T02:54:58Z cojy: then it does more on the rest of the list
2016-01-19T02:55:15Z n_blownapart: yes I realized after I posted line 19 that coffee would be cons on 18 and not 19 cojy
2016-01-19T02:55:30Z n_blownapart: (coffee)
2016-01-19T02:55:52Z n_blownapart: right ok thanks kindly cojy !
2016-01-19T02:56:00Z cojy: np
2016-01-19T02:56:13Z n_blownapart: I'm trying hard. its really important that I get this stuff.
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2016-01-19T03:02:06Z cojy: i'm really disappointed none of the scheme implementations have a good stepper for this
2016-01-19T03:02:08Z cojy: i shold make one
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2016-01-20T16:43:54Z Fare: is there a rough benchmark comparing performance of various scheme implementations out there?
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2016-01-20T16:51:54Z jcowan_: Fare: Stalin is insanely fast but takes forever to compile.  Gambit is a tad faster than Chicken.  Those are the only real candidates if you want speed.
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2016-01-20T16:53:47Z taylan: Fare: depends a lot on what you want to do
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2016-01-20T21:45:21Z n_blownapart: hi some mores questions re: this paste : https://www.refheap.com/113882  . with alot of help from kind members here, I still have trouble with following the output of trace/function and trace/cons1. could someone teach me how to 'sketch' this code? particular hardship is with lines 16-17 - thanks.
2016-01-20T21:47:25Z n_blownapart: more specifically first, are lines 16-17 for handling nested lists i.e. ((tea) cup)  ?
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2016-01-20T22:10:53Z Kundry_W`: Does anyone use emacs + mit-scheme + xscheme? C-x C-e is evaluating things one character before it would do in Emacs Lisp, CL etc. I'm not sure if this is excpect. Sorry if this is not the right place to ask.
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2016-01-20T22:12:18Z ecraven: Kundry_W`: I use emacs + mit-scheme + SLIME
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2016-01-20T22:14:54Z Kundry_W`: ecraven: I'll give it a try then.
2016-01-20T22:15:16Z ecraven: mind that the swank that comes with MIT/GNU Scheme doesn't work well :-/
2016-01-20T22:15:37Z ecraven: I've put a newer version on github, not sure whether that works with most recent -git
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2016-01-20T22:21:08Z Kundry_W`: ecraven: I found your package. Nice. Though I think I'll keep with xscheme. The thing is that I'm learning CL at the same time so I usually already have one Slime instance, and making two work well together is probably not worth it :( I'll just advice C-x C-e or something similar.
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2016-01-20T22:22:50Z ecraven: Kundry_W`: I've run two slimes, most things work, but there are some issues.. probably my fault, for not making my swank work exactly ok
2016-01-20T22:22:59Z ecraven: but it is a great environment
2016-01-20T22:24:41Z Kundry_W`: Sure
2016-01-20T22:24:49Z Kundry_W`: Thanks for your help
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2016-01-20T22:31:42Z teurastaja: hey. ive seen many articles about implementing continuations from closures but im searching for a way to implement closures from a continuation stack. am i going the wrong way?
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2016-01-20T23:08:08Z ecraven: Riastradh: what would you suggest for automated tests on MIT/GNU Scheme? (load-option 'test-manager) stopped working after some updates on -git :-/
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2016-01-21T01:15:53Z jcowan: I think it would be a Good Thing to have a procedure which does what fold does, but not over the elements of a list, instead over the elements of an integer sequence specified by from, to, and step
2016-01-21T01:16:03Z jcowan: step is not so important
2016-01-21T01:16:22Z jcowan: I feel like this is a degenerate case of something, but I don't understand it well enough to recognize what
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2016-01-21T05:24:41Z DrDuck: Does anyone know of an existing chess engine written in Scheme, preferably that uses UCI?
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2016-01-21T10:16:35Z ecraven: has anyone used a for-each/default, that instead of stopping on the shortest list, just provides a default value for all non-existing elements of any of the lists?
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2016-01-21T12:50:30Z ecraven: ah, whoever invented SOAP and WSDL, someone should do hurtful things about that...
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2016-01-21T13:16:08Z C-Keen: ecraven: intercoolerjs.org/2016/01/18/rescuing-rest.html  :)
2016-01-21T13:16:10Z C-Keen: TLDR: REST is increasingly unfit for modern JSON API needs, but can be rescued by a return to HTML as a response format.
2016-01-21T13:16:13Z C-Keen: "
2016-01-21T13:16:18Z C-Keen: full circle \o/
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2016-01-21T14:51:44Z ecraven: also, whoever at oracle decided that '' == NULL should be made accountable for that nonsense...
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2016-01-21T16:21:56Z qu1j0t3: ecraven: wow
2016-01-21T16:24:17Z ecraven: qu1j0t3: and they call themselves a "database" :)
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2016-01-21T16:33:12Z gnomon: Oracle: makers of money primarily, databases a distant, grudging second.
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2016-01-21T16:45:37Z jcowan: gnomon: a stage 3 company
2016-01-21T16:46:23Z jcowan: stage 1 is engineering-driven, stage 2 is sales-driven, stage 3 is finance-driven ("We are not in the steel business, we are in the money-making business!"), stage 4 is survival driven ("Doesn't matter if we make money, Washington will bail us out")
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2016-01-21T18:20:43Z gnomon: jcowan, well said, sir.
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2016-01-21T20:19:11Z ecraven: jcowan: regarding that folding over integer sequences, I've implemented that now and then when needed, you are indeed right that it feels like there might be some more generalized "meta-fold"
2016-01-21T20:19:41Z jcowan: likewise for-each over integer sequences
2016-01-21T20:21:10Z ecraven: jcowan: ideally, for-each would work over "sequences" :) dylan was right
2016-01-21T20:21:40Z jcowan: Sure.  But atm I am trying to get monomorphism right (Scheme is relentlessly monomorphic)
2016-01-21T20:22:08Z jcowan: given that, you can layer polymorphism over it any way you want with predicate generic functions, rather than being stuck in someone else's idea of what a class hierarchy ought to be
2016-01-21T20:22:20Z jcowan: and let the compiler do its job of optimizing it all
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2016-01-21T20:40:37Z IstiCusi: Dear mates, good evening. I started to read the SICP book about scheme and read about the tail recursive implementation - is this a contracted specification of all scheme dialects? Thanks for your help.
2016-01-21T20:41:08Z ecraven: IstiCusi: yes, to call yourself a Scheme, you must support tail call elimination
2016-01-21T20:41:36Z IstiCusi: ecraven: thanks a lot, dear mate! I go on reading. :)
2016-01-21T20:42:13Z jcowan: Otherwise you have to call yourself a Not-Quite-Scheme
2016-01-21T20:42:36Z jcowan: there are some Schemes that have a NQS mode in which tail call support is not provided or is only provided to a limited extent
2016-01-21T20:42:40Z jcowan: Kawa, Bigloo
2016-01-21T20:42:56Z IstiCusi: Good to know .. kawa as java variant
2016-01-21T20:43:20Z IstiCusi: because i wanted to try this as well. Thanks, jcowan
2016-01-21T20:44:31Z jcowan: gcc eliminates some tail calls, but the programming style when you *know* that tail calls are not recursive is totally different from the style in which they might or might not be.
2016-01-21T20:45:15Z IstiCusi: makes sense --- good point ... when you have some bindings with callstack included behind
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2016-01-21T20:47:02Z jcowan: In particular, the classic implementation of state machines in Scheme is simply for the processing at the end of each state to call the next state as a procedure
2016-01-21T20:47:15Z jcowan: that won't work in most languages because the stack will build up, but in Scheme it won't
2016-01-21T20:48:14Z IstiCusi: Yeah, really a great concept
2016-01-21T20:48:55Z jcowan: procedure call = goto + rename arguments
2016-01-21T20:50:44Z IstiCusi: ok, roger .. well explained
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2016-01-21T22:41:47Z IstiCusi: good night!
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2016-01-22T00:53:39Z teurastaja: how would you implement gensym in C?
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2016-01-22T00:59:32Z qu1j0t3: I suppose one way could be a static variable
2016-01-22T00:59:43Z qu1j0t3: but without more context... hard to say.
2016-01-22T01:00:42Z Riastradh: C doesn't have a notion of symbols.  A vaguely related concept is attained by evaluating malloc(1) -- you get a pointer that is distinct from all other pointers in your program (or null).
2016-01-22T01:01:14Z teurastaja: id like a pointer to a new and distinct location
2016-01-22T01:01:20Z teurastaja: malloc (1) ?
2016-01-22T01:01:26Z teurastaja: what does that do?
2016-01-22T01:03:00Z teurastaja: exemple?unsigned char *p = malloc (1)
2016-01-22T01:03:03Z teurastaja: ?
2016-01-22T01:03:10Z teurastaja: ;
2016-01-22T01:04:45Z teurastaja: really?
2016-01-22T01:04:52Z teurastaja: clever
2016-01-22T01:08:14Z teurastaja: so with that and jcowans procedure call = goto + rename arguments, how does that translate?
2016-01-22T01:09:15Z teurastaja: i dont use gotos often in c ;)
2016-01-22T01:09:37Z teurastaja: i know how they work but...
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2016-01-22T01:23:54Z qu1j0t3: Riastradh++
2016-01-22T01:24:29Z qu1j0t3 was thinking of a global gensym counter, but malloc makes more sense
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2016-01-22T18:11:07Z teurastaja: anyone heard about the 3L project? stumbled upon it last night and i was amazed someone could do that in scheme, but i dont see any source code...
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2016-01-22T18:14:34Z teurastaja: we should all work on it
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2016-01-22T18:26:02Z jackdaniel: teurastaja: there is also interim (scheme) and mezzano (common lisp)
2016-01-22T18:26:09Z jackdaniel: regarding the OS'es
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2016-01-22T18:29:28Z teurastaja: indeed, there are a lot of interim internship schemes... any link?
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2016-01-22T18:33:06Z teurastaja: nevermind
2016-01-22T18:34:20Z jackdaniel: )
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2016-01-22T19:09:03Z leppie: lol http://stackoverflow.com/q/34954101/15541
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2016-01-22T19:12:07Z jackdaniel lols too
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2016-01-22T19:19:49Z jcowan: When I read about an OS, and the first thing I am told about are the Emacs-like key bindings, I have to wonder what kind of excuse for an OS that might be.
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2016-01-22T20:16:45Z leppie: ahh sweet, he learnt :D
2016-01-22T20:22:18Z jackdaniel: and he applied my "efficiency" hint ^_^ however I'm afraid I'm the snarky guy
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2016-01-22T20:31:07Z ecraven: jcowan__: must be a lisp machine!
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2016-01-22T20:31:40Z jcowan: ecraven: What must be?
2016-01-22T20:32:50Z ecraven: jcowan: emacs-like keybindings in an os
2016-01-22T20:34:03Z jcowan: ah
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2016-01-22T20:51:08Z AlexDenisov: hello everyone
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2016-01-22T20:53:08Z AlexDenisov: I was looking at http://www.scheme-reports.org and found that R7RS was approved and it has 'small language' note. What does it mean?
2016-01-22T20:53:29Z AlexDenisov: also, everywhere else (e.g.: wiki, schemers.org) I see that the latest spec is R6RS. I'm a bit confused now :)
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2016-01-22T21:20:18Z wolfram74: Hi all
2016-01-22T21:21:04Z wolfram74: I'm trying to work out of this MIT physics book that uses scheme and implicitly uses scmutils
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2016-01-22T21:21:42Z wolfram74: I'm on a mac and got scheme to work easily, 'brew install mit-scheme'
2016-01-22T21:21:50Z wolfram74: scmutils is another story
2016-01-22T21:22:17Z wolfram74: an hour and a half in, and the best i've gotten is a shitty emacs-ish command line interface
2016-01-22T21:22:41Z wolfram74: I want to be able to write a file, run it from the terminal and see the output
2016-01-22T21:22:47Z wolfram74: is this a fools errand?
2016-01-22T21:24:18Z wasamasa: AlexDenisov: r7rs is the standard currently worked on
2016-01-22T21:24:32Z wasamasa: AlexDenisov: the small variant has been finished, the large one however...
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2016-01-22T21:26:58Z AlexDenisov: @wasamasa thank you so much
2016-01-22T21:27:31Z wasamasa: you're welcome
2016-01-22T21:28:52Z jcowan: AlexDenisov: So R7RS-small by itself does not supersede R6RS, as it is both more limited in scope and incompatible with it.
2016-01-22T21:28:59Z AlexDenisov: wasamasa though I can't find what these small/large variants mean. could you by any chance point me to the correct direction?
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2016-01-22T21:29:08Z jcowan: R7RS-large will be compatible with R7RS-small, but not necessarily with R6RS
2016-01-22T21:29:23Z jcowan: R7RS-small is almost completely downward compatible with R5RS
2016-01-22T21:29:30Z jcowan: or upward compatible, I always forget which means what
2016-01-22T21:29:34Z jcowan: it is a superset, almost entirely
2016-01-22T21:30:02Z jcowan: R7RS-small is at r7rs.org
2016-01-22T21:30:32Z jcowan: R7RS-large is nowhere yet, but there are proposals for it on the Trac wiki and in various SRFIs
2016-01-22T21:30:41Z wasamasa: AlexDenisov: the language was developed until r5rs by consensus, r6rs was the first controversial one due to its size and radical departure from a number of ideas
2016-01-22T21:31:18Z wasamasa: AlexDenisov: r7rs has decided to go for a compromise and comes in a small variant that mostly resembles r5rs and a large variant with support for what you'd commonly expect in a standard library
2016-01-22T21:31:38Z AlexDenisov: aha, so the small/large is kinda two different standards. am I correct?
2016-01-22T21:32:18Z wasamasa: the large one will be a superset of the small one
2016-01-22T21:32:32Z wasamasa: last time I've checked there were ballots on deciding what to include
2016-01-22T21:32:57Z jcowan: Yes.
2016-01-22T21:33:09Z jcowan: Also the large standard will be released in color phases representing units of work
2016-01-22T21:33:13Z jcowan: as distinct from separate editions
2016-01-22T21:33:24Z jcowan: the red edition is going to go to ballot in February or March
2016-01-22T21:33:28Z jcowan: (I hope)
2016-01-22T21:33:35Z wasamasa: aha: http://homes.soic.indiana.edu/jhemann/scheme-14/slides/Cowan2014.pdf
2016-01-22T21:33:43Z wasamasa: so that's why you spoke up :P
2016-01-22T21:33:49Z jcowan: then there will be an orange edition covering different topics that will supplement the red edition
2016-01-22T21:34:03Z jcowan is for his sins the chair of the R7RS-large group
2016-01-22T21:34:13Z jcowan: and so on at least through a green edition, maybe blue
2016-01-22T21:34:21Z jcowan: or I get hit by a bus
2016-01-22T21:34:27Z jcowan: or all Schemedom tells me to stfu
2016-01-22T21:34:31Z wolfram74: Nobody's got advice on my scmutils problem?
2016-01-22T21:35:25Z AlexDenisov: wow, so much helpful information, thank you very much wasamasa and jcowan :)
2016-01-22T21:35:31Z jcowan: wolfram74: Only generic advice: load scmutils into your REPL with "load", then load your code.
2016-01-22T21:36:26Z wolfram74: so I should find where i've got the working scmutils, and pass a particular file name as the argument for load?
2016-01-22T21:38:16Z wasamasa: hm: http://redsymbol.net/articles/using-gnu-emacs-with-scmutils/
2016-01-22T21:38:31Z wasamasa: according to that you should be able to run mit-scheme and the library from the commandline just fine
2016-01-22T21:39:27Z C-Keen: jcowan: r7rs large is a rainbow?
2016-01-22T21:39:49Z jcowan: Well, its release structure is
2016-01-22T21:40:01Z jcowan: when done, it will be the ultraviolet edition, so named because at present it is completely invisible
2016-01-22T21:40:03Z Menche: mit scheme is r5rs?
2016-01-22T21:40:03Z wolfram74: that just replaces the weird defaul emacs with standard emacs
2016-01-22T21:40:27Z wolfram74: I have a text editor already, I'd just like to write my code, do "scheme < fucking_work.scm"
2016-01-22T21:40:31Z wolfram74: and see things in my terminal
2016-01-22T21:40:39Z Menche: I like gauche scheme
2016-01-22T21:40:48Z wasamasa: wolfram74: figure out how that works with mit-scheme in general and you should be done
2016-01-22T21:41:02Z wolfram74: I've gotten that far with generic scheme
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2016-01-22T21:41:17Z wolfram74: and I really liked it, it's a neat language
2016-01-22T21:41:32Z Menche: generic scheme?
2016-01-22T21:41:35Z wasamasa: aha, `mit-scheme --quiet < foo.scm`
2016-01-22T21:42:24Z C-Keen: I guess we also need a hyperspec then
2016-01-22T21:42:47Z wasamasa: rudybot: with bazillions of links!
2016-01-22T21:42:50Z rudybot: wasamasa: Yeah, Supercollider in general isn't really the best for composition, I've found. Unless you want generative composition. Or bazillions of channels.
2016-01-22T21:43:17Z wolfram74: --quiet, neat
2016-01-22T21:43:29Z C-Keen: an quiet intuitive
2016-01-22T21:43:38Z wolfram74: but I don't mind having the lines evaluated in terminal
2016-01-22T21:43:48Z wolfram74: libraries still eluding me
2016-01-22T21:44:23Z wolfram74: I tried (load "/usr/local/scmutils/src/load.scm")
2016-01-22T21:44:31Z wasamasa: the post suggests the --library keyword to be mandatory
2016-01-22T21:44:41Z wolfram74: but it told me it failed to do 'load-real'
2016-01-22T21:45:14Z wolfram74: when I tried to run that command earlier it said that run-scheme was undefined, so I couldn't get to line 4
2016-01-22T21:49:34Z jcowan: C-Keen: R7RS-small is a hyperspec in a small sort of way
2016-01-22T21:51:59Z wolfram74: should -> scheme --library /usr/locals/scmutils < foo.scm
2016-01-22T21:52:00Z wolfram74: work?
2016-01-22T21:52:45Z wasamasa: only you can know where the library is located on your system
2016-01-22T21:53:34Z wolfram74: if that path is there the library is located, it should have worked?
2016-01-22T21:53:53Z wolfram74: because I get the error "scheme: can't find a readable default for option --band."
2016-01-22T21:54:04Z wasamasa: you also need to start the mit-scheme from the distribution providing scmutils
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2016-01-22T22:00:16Z wolfram74: hrmmmm
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2016-01-22T22:05:26Z wolfram74: I am vanquished
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2016-01-22T22:07:39Z wolfram74: I will have to return to this not during week time
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2016-01-22T22:14:15Z jcowan: evhan: I'm getting an error at chicken-install time on Cygwin
2016-01-22T22:14:57Z jcowan: memory address collision for utils.import.so
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2016-01-23T02:20:40Z wolfram74: More trials and tribulations
2016-01-23T02:21:34Z wolfram74: is anybody familiar with scmutils
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2016-01-23T23:47:28Z dTal: Yacas is pretty amazing. Emacsy architecture, lispy core, functional primitives, extensible syntax, and latex output.
2016-01-23T23:47:38Z dTal: I wonder why it's not more widely used?
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2016-01-23T23:59:52Z Mokuso: because of mathematica, matlab, NumPy/SciPy/Jupyter and octave, maxima, I guess
2016-01-24T00:05:28Z qu1j0t3: & the rest ;-)
2016-01-24T00:05:36Z dTal: Mathematica and Maxima are the only things on that list that do symbolic math natively.
2016-01-24T00:06:32Z dTal: There's sympy, but it's tedious.
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2016-01-24T00:08:19Z Mokuso: how is yacas compared to maxima ?
2016-01-24T00:08:27Z Mokuso: in terms of speed
2016-01-24T00:08:31Z qu1j0t3: a few others are linked via Related links on the Yacas site
2016-01-24T00:10:53Z dTal: I don't know about speed.
2016-01-24T00:11:38Z dTal: I have tried Maxima, can't remember why I didn't stick with it.
2016-01-24T00:11:59Z dTal: As far as I know, only Mathematica and Yacas will respond to {a,b,c}+{d,e,f} with {a+d,b+e,c+f} on a clean prompt.
2016-01-24T00:13:29Z dTal: I like that style of "if it's undefined, it's symbolic". My TI-89 uses it.
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2016-01-24T04:52:43Z n_blownapart: hello I am trying to understand how this program works . it seems to have two accumulators instead of one. (line 23 and line 27-28) I used trace for 27-28 . please help me distinguish between the two pieces of code, thanks: https://www.refheap.com/113997
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2016-01-24T05:00:24Z cojy: n_blownapart: isn't this equivalent to the rember* from before just using o+o instead of cons?
2016-01-24T05:03:17Z n_blownapart: cojy thanks could you please explain how lines 27-28 add any functionality to the accumulator on line 23?
2016-01-24T05:04:15Z n_blownapart: where does (car l) pick up any numbers, so that it can be added to (cdr l) ^
2016-01-24T05:07:38Z cojy: it doesnt
2016-01-24T05:07:49Z cojy: it just adds 1 because it found an occurance
2016-01-24T05:08:10Z cojy: that's the only place the counting is done
2016-01-24T05:08:34Z n_blownapart: the only place is line 27 , is it?
2016-01-24T05:08:49Z cojy: no line 27 just joins the two counts from recurring
2016-01-24T05:09:01Z cojy: o+ is the same as +
2016-01-24T05:09:26Z cojy: 23 adds add 1 to "recur on the rest of the list"
2016-01-24T05:09:45Z n_blownapart: sorry, it "joins the two counts from recurring?"
2016-01-24T05:09:49Z cojy: so
2016-01-24T05:10:34Z cojy: (o+o (occur* 1 (car (list 1 2))) (occur* 1 (cdr (list 1 2))))
2016-01-24T05:10:48Z cojy:  (o+o 1 0)
2016-01-24T05:10:52Z cojy: 1
2016-01-24T05:11:01Z cojy: that's what happens on 27 given those values filled in
2016-01-24T05:12:02Z cojy: 23 is (add1 (occur* 1 (cdr (list 1 2)))) => (add1 0) => 1
2016-01-24T05:15:13Z n_blownapart: so cojy line 23 does not exclusively add to the (cdr l) it adds to (car l) as well ?
2016-01-24T05:15:59Z cojy: there is no car and cdr left over
2016-01-24T05:16:46Z cojy: occur* takes a list and returns a number
2016-01-24T05:16:56Z cojy: unlike rember* which takees a list and returns a list
2016-01-24T05:17:08Z n_blownapart: so (1) is getting passed around, then (2) etc.
2016-01-24T05:18:52Z cojy: a is anything you want, l is a list, the return value is a number
2016-01-24T05:19:10Z cojy: so any time you see (occur* ...) that wil get replaced with a number
2016-01-24T05:19:34Z cojy: same with (o+o ...) and (add1 ...)
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2016-01-24T05:21:28Z cojy: 23 is basically (+ 1 count-in-cdr) and 27 is (+ count-in-car count-in-cdr)
2016-01-24T05:24:53Z n_blownapart: ok so where precisely does the counter for car operate?
2016-01-24T05:26:28Z n_blownapart: sorry I wasn't able to follow exactly your breakdown where you did '(o+o (occur* 1 (car (list 1 2))) (occur* 1 (cdr (list 1 2))))'
2016-01-24T05:28:12Z cojy: not sure what oyu mean by counter of car but line 27 is where you count inside of the car IF it's a list
2016-01-24T05:28:50Z cojy: if it's the matching atom, you get 1 added to the count on line 23, if it doesn't match you just skip it on line  24
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2016-01-24T05:34:31Z n_blownapart: cojy very sorry, what I mean is that somewhere it must be discerned whether a count of 1 goes to (car l) or to (cdr 1) ... so that line 27 has two operands to work on.
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2016-01-24T05:35:42Z cojy: n_blownapart: why would that have to be discerned?
2016-01-24T05:41:16Z n_blownapart: I wrote the trace in such a way so that I could see what is happening precisely on line 27. but I think I'm reading the output wrongly.
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2016-01-24T05:52:45Z cojy: it's hard
2016-01-24T05:52:53Z cojy: its better to j u st do it by hand imo
2016-01-24T05:56:53Z n_blownapart: well, for example, (o+o 1 0) returns one, but the way the operator o+o is written, the 1 is in the place that is represented by (occur* a (car l)). 0 is in the place of (occur* a (cdr l)) .
2016-01-24T05:57:04Z adu: cojy: did you know that "st" is a Unicode code point?
2016-01-24T05:57:46Z adu: "st"
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2016-01-24T05:58:39Z n_blownapart: that is how I interpret the first line of the trace output.
2016-01-24T06:06:53Z n_blownapart: thanks very much cojy for your patience and help.
2016-01-24T06:11:18Z cojy: np sorry i couldnt help more
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2016-01-24T06:32:25Z n_blownapart: cojy no I'm *way* closer to the heart of the matter.
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2016-01-24T14:33:19Z jenenliu-: hi guys, some one use gieser and chicken for scheme compiler ?
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2016-01-24T14:35:11Z jenenliu-: I am a newbie, I try to set up geiser and chicken scheme, but I can't compile my .scm file
2016-01-24T14:35:24Z jenenliu-: can someone help? thanks in advance
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2016-01-24T14:42:29Z wasamasa: you don't need geiser to run csc
2016-01-24T14:42:40Z wasamasa: geiser is specifically for a nicer repl
2016-01-24T14:45:55Z jenenliu-: hi wasamasa , I need guile ?
2016-01-24T14:48:16Z wasamasa: jenenliu-: all you need is `csc program.scm`
2016-01-24T14:49:18Z jenenliu-: ok thanks
2016-01-24T14:50:49Z wasamasa: geiser is for a more advanced workflow
2016-01-24T14:51:00Z wasamasa: where you have a file and a repl open, then evaluate parts of the file as you change them
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2016-01-24T15:00:25Z jenenliu-: I see, thanks a lot, wasamasa
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2016-01-25T00:36:19Z DrDuck: Has section 3.3.4 of SICP been tedious for anyone else here?
2016-01-25T00:37:07Z DrDuck: There are exercises on creating new circuit-related software, but the code that makes up the circuit system you need to use to do so is spread out all across the section.
2016-01-25T00:37:55Z DrDuck: Many parts you need, to see your programs work, are not even given until after the exercises.
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2016-01-25T19:50:45Z sublimate: Hey guys! I'm trying to solve a linear recurrence iteratively in Scheme as part of an assignment. It's got about 4 parts to it like af(n-1) + bf(n-2)... + df(n-4). Can anyone nudge me on the right track to doing this with tail recursion?
2016-01-25T19:55:01Z ecraven: sublimate: not sure I understand correctly, but the usual accumulator approach (with multiple "accumulators") to making recursive invocations into tail recursive ones should work?
2016-01-25T19:56:21Z davexunit: also, what is the condition for termination?
2016-01-25T19:58:11Z sublimate: This is the question I'm trying to do (part b) https://usercontent.irccloud-cdn.com/file/qy9G1vsI/Screen%20Shot%202016-01-25%20at%202.56.43%20PM.png
2016-01-25T19:58:12Z rudybot: http://teensy.info/TpF2AXhgh5
2016-01-25T19:59:16Z sublimate: ecraven: Basically the part I'm confused about is exactly how to extend the accumulator you can use with fib to work for four variables
2016-01-25T19:59:54Z pjb: sublimate: use 4 accumulators.  Alternatively, use a vector of 4 values.
2016-01-25T20:00:12Z ecraven: sublimate: maybe something like (define (my-fun n fn-1 fn-2 fn-3 fn-4) ...)
2016-01-25T20:00:20Z ecraven: with some special cases to get to fn-4 :)
2016-01-25T20:00:23Z jcowan: sublimate: "let loop" is your friend
2016-01-25T20:00:29Z sublimate: Let loop?
2016-01-25T20:00:50Z ecraven: ah, n<4, not so hard to special case the initial cases then
2016-01-25T20:01:13Z sublimate: Okay I can kinda see how I could do this
2016-01-25T20:01:18Z ecraven: sublimate: (let loop ((n 1)) ... (loop (+ n 1))) or similar :) also known as named let
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2016-01-25T20:04:32Z jcowan: yeah, I always use "loop" as the identifier, so I think of it as "let loop" rather than "named let"
2016-01-25T20:04:52Z jcowan: just as I usually use "return", not "k" for the argument of a lambda passed to call/cc
2016-01-25T20:05:04Z jcowan: except when it isn't used as a pure escape continuation
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2016-01-25T20:14:33Z ecraven: jcowan: I tend to use either `loop' or `outer' and `inner', if nested :)
2016-01-25T20:14:41Z jcowan nods
2016-01-25T20:14:54Z jcowan: In that case I use foo-loop where foo is an iteration variable
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2016-01-26T03:13:53Z DrDuck: rip marvin minsky :(
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2016-01-26T16:03:46Z sublimate: Hey guys - I'm trying to learn about tail call optimization. Is one of the conditions for it that the tail call can only be within a special form like "if"?
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2016-01-26T16:04:05Z sublimate: For example I'm trying some exercises from SICP and this code doesn't work but it works with regular 'if'
2016-01-26T16:04:15Z sublimate: https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/lsIWrXST/
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2016-01-26T16:09:19Z sublimate: Nevermind I'm being silly, I get it xD
2016-01-26T16:09:36Z sublimate: It's super simple for anyone interested: the alternate is always evaluated
2016-01-26T16:09:49Z taylan: sublimate: the problem in your code is that since new-if is a procedure (and not a macro), your sqrt-iteration recurses infinitely
2016-01-26T16:10:01Z taylan: recurs*
2016-01-26T16:10:07Z sublimate: taylan: Thanks! :)
2016-01-26T16:10:27Z taylan: (I keep forgetting that the root of the word "recursion" is the verb "to recur" :P)
2016-01-26T16:11:03Z taylan: (uh, but it seems "to recurse" is a word too.  weird.)
2016-01-26T16:11:33Z taylan: (according to Wiktionary, at least.  maybe it just became a word because so many people made the same mistake.)
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2016-01-26T18:12:46Z ecraven: would something like react.js/riot.js + flux.js/redux.js work as a server-side architecture for web apps? ideally with automatic cross-compilation to javascript, to make it execute there as well :-)
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2016-01-26T22:37:50Z badkins: Are there other schemes besides Bigloo that support multi-core threading? I'd prefer to avoid the JVM for this. I've already implemented a version on Racket using places, but that's fairly coarse grained, so I'd like to code up a threaded version that uses more than one core.
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2016-01-26T23:18:29Z mejja: rudybot: Long time no see
2016-01-26T23:18:31Z rudybot: mejja: long time no see!
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2016-01-26T23:42:15Z mejja: rudybot: continuations remain an ugly stain on the otherwise clean manuscript of scheme
2016-01-26T23:42:22Z rudybot: mejja: The second paragraph, "There should be a simple, easily implementable kernel to the Lisp. That kernel should be both more than Scheme-modules and macros-and less than Scheme-continuations remain an ugly stain on the otherwise clean manuscript of Scheme."
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2016-01-26T23:44:03Z LeoNerd: call/cc is terrible
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2016-01-27T00:06:02Z mejja: rudybot: fully cooked sushi
2016-01-27T00:06:03Z rudybot: mejja: cooked, raw, steamed, sushi
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2016-01-27T01:33:05Z turbofail: badkins: guile supports POSIX threads.  and racket has futures too, which also use OS threads
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2016-01-27T02:13:04Z bstamour: Just getting started with scheme. I'm curious, what kinds of cool things have people made with it?
2016-01-27T02:15:39Z qu1j0t3: Minikanren!  A relational/logic programming DSL!
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2016-01-27T02:17:05Z bstamour: Sounds neat.
2016-01-27T02:18:10Z bstamour: I like the idea of having multiple host languages.
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2016-01-27T02:35:27Z lambda-11235: bstamour: A nanopass compiler framework (https://github.com/akeep/nanopass-framework).
2016-01-27T02:39:05Z bstamour: Very cool, thanks.
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2016-01-27T02:54:36Z badkins: turbofail: thanks. Racket's futures seem to be mainly beneficial for numeric tasks according to the docs - lots of limitations.
2016-01-27T02:55:24Z badkins: for most things, Racket's "places" should be fine, but I wanted to experiment with shared-memory-multithreading in Scheme as a comparison
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2016-01-27T04:19:26Z sublimate: Cuddling is super nice. Having someone to hold you and care and tell you you make sense even hem you don't. Even I guess tell you they care when they don't
2016-01-27T04:20:00Z sublimate: Even the physical closeness lets you know everything is going to be ok
2016-01-27T04:20:19Z sublimate: Whoops!
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2016-01-27T05:10:38Z Menche: o.o
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2016-01-27T17:11:13Z w3schoolsfan: Is there some library that can pretty-print SXML to the normal XML format?
2016-01-27T17:11:21Z w3schoolsfan: I couldn't find one that can pretty-print
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2016-01-27T17:14:18Z davexunit: w3schoolsfan: not readily available, but you could easily adapt sxml->xml to pretty print.
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2016-01-27T17:14:59Z davexunit: oh sorry, thought were in #guile.
2016-01-27T17:15:11Z w3schoolsfan: Yeah, I sked it before there.
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2016-01-27T17:15:16Z w3schoolsfan: But now I'm here
2016-01-27T17:15:21Z w3schoolsfan: the root of all evil
2016-01-27T17:15:26Z davexunit: that advice was specific to sxml->xml in guile's (sxml simple), but perhaps its the same everywhere.
2016-01-27T17:16:45Z w3schoolsfan: Hmm, I guess I'll dive into the source to see if I can make a second function.
2016-01-27T17:16:56Z davexunit: it will be quite easy to do.
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2016-01-27T17:17:12Z davexunit: you'll just need to keep track of how many levels deep you are into the tree.
2016-01-27T17:17:17Z davexunit: so you can indent appropriately.
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2016-01-27T17:19:36Z w3schoolsfan: Ah yes, that function is actually fairly small yes.
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2016-01-27T18:20:20Z taylan: w3schoolsfan: you can use the xmllint command-line tool to pretty-print XML, if that helps
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2016-01-27T18:28:08Z w3schoolsfan: taylan, yeah, that's probably a simpler solution to just Unix it out
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2016-01-27T18:45:29Z davexunit: but then you don't get to learn about making a pretty printer!
2016-01-27T18:45:43Z davexunit: which isn't much extra work since the "ugly" printer is already there.
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2016-01-27T19:13:08Z w3schoolsfan: davexunit, okay, very well, you have motivated me to continue
2016-01-27T19:13:48Z davexunit: hehe
2016-01-27T19:14:05Z davexunit: you can do as you wish, but I see moments like this as good learning opportunities! :)
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2016-01-27T19:35:57Z w3schoolsfan: davexunit, well, in the interest of learning, you know a way to create a new placeholder port to let a procedure write to as output port and then read back from as input port later?
2016-01-27T19:36:45Z davexunit: w3schoolsfan: ports are 1 way.  you either read or write from them.
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2016-01-27T19:41:48Z w3schoolsfan: Hmm, I guess I just store it i a string then.
2016-01-27T19:43:56Z jcowan: If your Scheme permits it, you can use a string output port and then read back later using a string input port on the generated string
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2016-01-27T21:19:39Z xoui: Good evening, all. can I ask somebody to look at this snippet of code, to explain where i'm going wrong?
2016-01-27T21:19:43Z xoui: http://pastebin.com/15Dvh461
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2016-01-27T21:22:41Z xoui: hi turtleman
2016-01-27T21:22:50Z turtleman: hi xoui
2016-01-27T21:23:16Z xoui: could I ask you to look at a snippet, to explain where i'm going wrong with my logic?
2016-01-27T21:23:22Z xoui: it's brief: http://pastebin.com/15Dvh461
2016-01-27T21:27:52Z xoui: specifically, running it as R5RS in the drracket IDE.
2016-01-27T21:29:45Z fizzie: xoui: R5RS 5.2.2: "Just as for the equivalent letrec expression, it must be possible to evaluate each <expression> of every internal definition in a <body> without assigning or referring to the value of any <variable> being defined."
2016-01-27T21:30:12Z fizzie: Because of that, the expression giving the value for l2 cannot refer to the value of l1.
2016-01-27T21:31:12Z fizzie: If you want sequential semantics, there's let*: (let* ((l1 <something>) (l2 <something referring to l1>)) <body>) would work.
2016-01-27T21:32:43Z xoui: I'm aware of the let form, it just hadn't been covered in the book as yet. thanks a lot fizzie
2016-01-27T21:34:31Z fizzie: The function in general seems a bit strange, incidentally. If it should be "sum of squares of the two largest arguments" (which could be reasonable for a name like "suml2"), it doesn't quite do that.
2016-01-27T21:36:22Z xoui scratches his head
2016-01-27T21:40:25Z xoui: ah, the check for 2 largest is wrong
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2016-01-27T21:48:48Z jcowan: xoui: You can always replace let* by a series of nested lets with no *
2016-01-27T21:48:51Z Mitzelflick: hows the scheme web site tools?
2016-01-27T21:48:59Z Mitzelflick: awful?
2016-01-27T21:51:13Z jcowan: Awful is pretty good, but pretty_good is awful
2016-01-27T21:52:20Z wasamasa: there's a guile thing in the same spirit
2016-01-27T21:52:26Z wasamasa: I just can't remember what it's called
2016-01-27T21:53:28Z wasamasa: ok, digging in my logs revealed http://web-artanis.com/
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2016-01-27T22:05:33Z xoui: there's ark, which is a dialect made specifically for web stuff
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2016-01-27T22:06:07Z xoui: arc*, even: http://arclanguage.org/
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2016-01-27T22:36:43Z Mitzelflick: nice
2016-01-27T22:36:46Z Mitzelflick: very nice
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2016-01-28T02:11:28Z ngc0202: hi
2016-01-28T02:11:54Z ngc0202: How might I use 'match' to determine if a given list is a singleton or not?
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2016-01-28T07:24:29Z taylan: singleton?..  maybe they meant null/empty.
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2016-01-28T09:29:32Z lloda: (match x ((a) 'singleton)) ??
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2016-01-28T12:40:30Z biubiubiu: is multi-thread safe in scheme ?
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2016-01-28T12:43:43Z taylan: biubiubiu: there's no standard threading functionality in Scheme.  you should check with your preferred Scheme implementation.
2016-01-28T12:44:56Z biubiubiu: taylan: do you have some implements to suggest ? good at multi-thread
2016-01-28T12:45:46Z kephra: biubiubiu, one could implement threads on top of call-cc
2016-01-28T12:46:15Z taylan: Guile has good OS thread support.  Racket also has light-weight threading I think.  don't know very well about most other implementations.  (I'm sure several of them have good threading support that I just don't know of.)
2016-01-28T12:46:18Z taylan: kephra: not very well
2016-01-28T12:46:29Z wasamasa: like, CHICKEN?
2016-01-28T12:46:31Z biubiubiu: kephra: but I think call-cc is like concurrency not parallelism
2016-01-28T12:46:51Z kephra: true, each event runs its time
2016-01-28T12:46:57Z taylan: wasamasa: what kind of threading does Chicken support?  (I'm ignorant.)
2016-01-28T12:47:30Z wasamasa: taylan: the green kind
2016-01-28T12:47:50Z wasamasa: taylan: there's a hack for native threads though
2016-01-28T12:47:54Z biubiubiu: wasamasa: the green kind means its not really OS thread?
2016-01-28T12:48:27Z wasamasa: biubiubiu: correct
2016-01-28T12:48:27Z wasamasa: biubiubiu: aka green threads
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2016-01-28T12:48:56Z wasamasa: http://api.call-cc.org/doc/srfi-18
2016-01-28T12:49:06Z wasamasa: "The threads implemented in CHICKEN are so called "green" threads, based on first-class continuations. Native threads that map directly to the threads provided by the operating system are not supported."
2016-01-28T12:49:12Z biubiubiu: I heard multi-thread is not safe
2016-01-28T12:49:31Z wasamasa: taylan: see http://api.call-cc.org/doc/concurrent-native-callbacks for that hack
2016-01-28T12:50:07Z biubiubiu: and some people say FP have safe thread
2016-01-28T12:50:48Z wasamasa: it all depends on what you're doing in these threads
2016-01-28T12:51:25Z gauss: hi! is there function to replace part(subsequence) of a list?  (func '(q) '(1 2) '( (1 2) (3 4) (5 6) ) ) => ((q) (3 4) (5 6))
2016-01-28T12:51:49Z wasamasa: biubiubiu: avoiding mutation helps greatly
2016-01-28T12:52:18Z biubiubiu: mostly, I think multi-thread apply socket
2016-01-28T12:53:36Z biubiubiu: gauss: I guess no, you can do it yourself
2016-01-28T12:54:08Z wasamasa: filter is a reasonable bet
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2016-01-28T13:25:57Z biubiubiu: taylan: wasamasa do you have some good method to name variable and function ? or identifier and procedure what ever you call
2016-01-28T13:27:23Z wasamasa: biubiubiu: dunno, I just think long and hard about it
2016-01-28T13:27:47Z biubiubiu: names of variable or function are really important for understanding I think
2016-01-28T13:28:00Z taylan: biubiubiu: I agree.  I often think very hard on what to name something.
2016-01-28T13:28:15Z biubiubiu: taylan: me too
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2016-01-28T13:28:35Z taylan: I try to be as verbose and explicit as possible, though it can be a drag having to type too much
2016-01-28T13:28:50Z wasamasa: it can't be possibly as bad as in elisp, no
2016-01-28T13:29:08Z taylan: heh, true
2016-01-28T13:29:36Z wasamasa: even JS did find a way to get around this limitation
2016-01-28T13:29:42Z biubiubiu: I wrote a function, its name is find-string-a-in-string-b
2016-01-28T13:29:50Z biubiubiu: do you think the name is so long
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2016-01-28T13:30:06Z biubiubiu: but it's really easy to understand I think
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2016-01-28T13:30:29Z taylan: biubiubiu: why not make it more generic, or use one of the procedures in SRFI 13?
2016-01-28T13:30:40Z jackdaniel: biubiubiu: it's CL'ish style, scheme preferes acronyms
2016-01-28T13:30:50Z jackdaniel: or shorter names
2016-01-28T13:30:59Z taylan: jackdaniel: Scheme doesn't prefer acronyms or shorter names from what I can tell
2016-01-28T13:31:14Z taylan: in fact it's the opposite.  CL often has weird short names...
2016-01-28T13:31:40Z jackdaniel: I won't pick this flamewar. Let it be.
2016-01-28T13:31:56Z taylan: biubiubiu: e.g. there's string-contains in SRFI 13
2016-01-28T13:32:08Z wasamasa: taylan: I don't know what's possibly weird about CALLF2
2016-01-28T13:32:13Z biubiubiu: taylan: I like to write some little funciton
2016-01-28T13:32:18Z wasamasa: taylan: isn't it immediately obvious what it does???
2016-01-28T13:32:18Z biubiubiu: not big
2016-01-28T13:32:55Z biubiubiu: taylan: I think it's a pleasure write some little procedure with list in scheme
2016-01-28T13:33:15Z taylan: biubiubiu: if you're writing exercises, sure
2016-01-28T13:33:21Z taylan: biubiubiu: I'd try to reimplement string-contains then
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2016-01-28T13:34:32Z taylan: jackdaniel: I didn't mean to flame.  CL tends to choose traditional names, whereas Scheme tends to be very clear in its naming, from what I can tell.
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2016-01-28T13:35:05Z biubiubiu: the name in C is short
2016-01-28T13:35:35Z taylan: this can be a nuisance too.  e.g. hashtable-set! is a very very long name for an operation that might be ubiquitous in some codebases.  (I wrote SRFI 123 to help in this regard.)
2016-01-28T13:35:49Z biubiubiu: but it's hardly to be short and esay understanding
2016-01-28T13:39:49Z biubiubiu: so there's not a good way for naming ?
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2016-01-28T13:41:12Z biubiubiu: taylan: does SRFI provide socket and multi-thread now ?
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2016-01-28T13:41:57Z wasamasa: biubiubiu: SRFI 18 specifies general terminology
2016-01-28T13:42:08Z taylan: biubiubiu: there's SRFI 19 and 21 for threading, but I don't know how well they're supported by implementations.  there's SRFI 106 for sockets, but it's young and not well supported.
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2016-01-28T13:43:20Z biubiubiu: so scheme!
2016-01-28T13:43:30Z taylan: indeed :(
2016-01-28T13:44:07Z taylan: biubiubiu: https://wingolog.org/archives/2013/01/07/an-opinionated-guide-to-scheme-implementations
2016-01-28T13:44:07Z rudybot: http://teensy.info/sbR7vrszxw
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2016-01-28T13:48:37Z biubiubiu: taylan: I pick racket, and guile is so C, maybe I should try Chicken, Chez's libraries is too few
2016-01-28T13:50:21Z biubiubiu: implements is really too many for scheme, and it's still not popular like python ruby go ...
2016-01-28T13:50:31Z wasamasa: isn't chez dead?
2016-01-28T13:50:32Z biubiubiu: are
2016-01-28T13:50:55Z wasamasa: last I've heard was it being under cisco's control
2016-01-28T13:50:59Z wasamasa: biubiubiu: popularity is not a goal
2016-01-28T13:51:02Z taylan: biubiubiu: WDYM "guile is so C"?
2016-01-28T13:51:28Z taylan: wasamasa: sez who?  Guile will take over the world :P
2016-01-28T13:51:29Z biubiubiu: taylan: WDYM is ?
2016-01-28T13:51:35Z taylan: what do you mean with
2016-01-28T13:52:17Z taylan: Guile has been having a shift to write more and more things in pure Scheme since some years I believe
2016-01-28T13:54:21Z biubiubiu: taylan: the guile's documents give me a feel that's like a kind of C
2016-01-28T13:54:45Z taylan: biubiubiu: it's very Unixy, but it's also very Schemey
2016-01-28T13:55:02Z wasamasa: biubiubiu: it was made for embedding in C programs
2016-01-28T13:55:10Z wasamasa: biubiubiu: however it has evolved to be usable for more than that only
2016-01-28T13:56:44Z biubiubiu: taylan: do you think Unixy is opposite to Schemey
2016-01-28T13:57:35Z taylan: not in the ways I meant, no
2016-01-28T13:57:46Z biubiubiu: I'm kidding
2016-01-28T13:58:00Z taylan: :)
2016-01-28T13:58:32Z biubiubiu: unix c vim VS lisp emacs
2016-01-28T13:59:14Z taylan: see GNU Guix for a maximally Schemey Unix though
2016-01-28T13:59:54Z biubiubiu: the package manager ?
2016-01-28T14:00:25Z taylan: Guix/GuixSD
2016-01-28T14:00:28Z taylan: the latter a GNU distro
2016-01-28T14:01:12Z wasamasa: it occurred me just now what the SD in GuixSD is for
2016-01-28T14:02:22Z biubiubiu: SDcard ? :)
2016-01-28T14:03:20Z wasamasa: scheme distro
2016-01-28T14:03:27Z taylan: heh
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2016-01-28T15:01:45Z Mokuso: is writing scheme code on vim considered a herecy by emacs users ? :P
2016-01-28T15:02:27Z taylan: Mokuso: pfft, do as you wish
2016-01-28T15:02:32Z wasamasa: just a penance
2016-01-28T15:02:46Z lambda-11235: Using vim at all is herecy. I'
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2016-01-28T15:03:07Z lambda-11235: m the ultimate heretic using Evil mode. :)
2016-01-28T15:03:08Z biubiubiu: emacs is better I think
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2016-01-28T15:03:48Z Mokuso: butterflies are better as xkcd has pointed out
2016-01-28T15:04:07Z Mokuso: for me it's just a matter of taste anyways..
2016-01-28T15:04:33Z biubiubiu: Mokuso: like you see, h j k l don't mean anything, but C-n C-p mean next previous,
2016-01-28T15:05:14Z biubiubiu: so emacs is better than vim on writing scheme code I think
2016-01-28T15:05:22Z Mokuso: ok
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2016-01-28T15:07:04Z biubiubiu: another benefit is there's geiser on emacs :)
2016-01-28T15:07:21Z biubiubiu: geiser and slime
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2016-01-28T15:08:03Z davexunit: Geiser is the best.
2016-01-28T15:08:03Z Mokuso: yeh well, I like simple stuff, so
2016-01-28T15:08:17Z lambda-11235: biubiubiu: But vim key strokes are faster and more fluid than emacs commands.
2016-01-28T15:08:24Z davexunit: Geiser + paredit is a wonderful hacking environment.
2016-01-28T15:08:48Z davexunit: nothing matches Emacs for Lisp hacking.
2016-01-28T15:09:10Z X-Scale: vim for everything else
2016-01-28T15:09:33Z Mokuso: emacs for everything or death
2016-01-28T15:09:35Z Mokuso: I suppose
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2016-01-28T15:09:53Z davexunit: I use Emacs for hacking in all languages.
2016-01-28T15:10:03Z davexunit: and doing pretty much everything else.
2016-01-28T15:10:08Z davexunit: email, IRC, etc.
2016-01-28T15:10:25Z biubiubiu: lambda-11235: yes, you're right, vim's operate is really faster than emacs's, but it's easy to remember
2016-01-28T15:10:30Z biubiubiu: it's not
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2016-01-28T15:10:59Z davexunit: for people that really just like Vim's key bindings, Emacs can do that.
2016-01-28T15:11:15Z davexunit: I hear a lot of people using spacemacs for this.
2016-01-28T15:11:19Z biubiubiu: like [ $ 0 ... I can't remember what they mean
2016-01-28T15:11:45Z Mokuso: I wonder which editor Sussman used/uses
2016-01-28T15:11:48Z davexunit: Emacs is the more capable editor, because it was designed to be very hackable.
2016-01-28T15:11:48Z X-Scale: biubiubiu: it's really so easy
2016-01-28T15:11:53Z davexunit: Mokuso: he uses Emacs.
2016-01-28T15:12:00Z Mokuso: ah
2016-01-28T15:12:12Z wasamasa: edwin?
2016-01-28T15:12:15Z Mokuso: still, I won't convert to emacsinity
2016-01-28T15:12:30Z davexunit: sure, you don't have to.
2016-01-28T15:12:39Z davexunit: it's just something that most Lisp programmers highly recommend.
2016-01-28T15:12:41Z biubiubiu: Mokuso: Sussman build a part of emacs
2016-01-28T15:13:03Z biubiubiu: No,
2016-01-28T15:13:21Z biubiubiu: Mokuso: no, I'm wrong
2016-01-28T15:13:22Z Mokuso: biubiubiu, ah nice, didn't know that, thought Stallman did all the work
2016-01-28T15:13:44Z davexunit: Stallman did a lot of initial work, but Emacs has had a HUGE number of contributors over the 30+ years its been around.
2016-01-28T15:14:11Z X-Scale: Emacs is like Islam: a whole system of life.
2016-01-28T15:14:31Z biubiubiu: Mokuso: it's not Sussman, it's Guy Steele
2016-01-28T15:14:34Z davexunit: if you like Lisp, Emacs is naturally appealing because it is extensible in Lisp.
2016-01-28T15:14:55Z lambda-11235: The reason I prefer emacs is because it's source code it mainly lisp, which is much cleaner than vim's source code.
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2016-01-28T15:16:30Z wasamasa: I'm still waiting for someone to start vimhorrors.com
2016-01-28T15:16:42Z biubiubiu: I heard Guy Steele worked with Bill Joy, that's really intresting which editor they use when they work together ?
2016-01-28T15:16:58Z jackdaniel: nano ;)
2016-01-28T15:17:04Z taylan: Notepad.exe
2016-01-28T15:17:17Z LeoNerd: I once did a talk at a conference about how Perl and Scheme are both similar and different.  Larry Wall came to it
2016-01-28T15:17:21Z LeoNerd: Guy Steele didn't. :(
2016-01-28T15:17:30Z biubiubiu: the father of emacs vs vi, so intresting
2016-01-28T15:17:52Z Mokuso: I'm just following sussman's lectures in my spare time, learning mitScheme, so I'll just use any simple editor...Not planning writing very lengthy codes yet
2016-01-28T15:18:53Z Mokuso: thanks for the feedback though, I'm aware that Emacs has great capabilities, but I guess I'm lazy to start using it atm
2016-01-28T15:19:01Z biubiubiu: Mokuso: you should try emacs for that, and it's really good
2016-01-28T15:22:51Z Mokuso: k
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2016-01-28T18:05:58Z cyanboy: Hi I'm just wondering. Is it possible to simplify this fibbonacci function? http://pastebin.com/YRXw4Kyh my TA claims so, but I think he's messing with me.
2016-01-28T18:06:35Z wasamasa: not sure what simplification means in this context
2016-01-28T18:06:49Z wasamasa: you can replace (- foo 1) with (sub1 foo)
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2016-01-28T18:16:58Z ggole: Named let, maybe?
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2016-01-28T18:47:07Z grobthelot: hello, room
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2016-01-28T18:47:38Z grobthelot: i need help with a lilypond scheme problem
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2016-01-28T18:50:26Z gnomon: grobthelot, what kind of problem are you trying to solve?
2016-01-28T18:54:47Z grobthelot: i'm trying to access the values defined in \header, to compare them, and eventually overwrite them
2016-01-28T18:56:07Z grobthelot: but the \header structure does not play nicely in my hands (btw, i'm a noob in scheme, so the problem might be trivial)
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2016-01-28T19:16:52Z Opodeldoc: cyanboy, that code is straight from SICP 1.2.2
2016-01-28T19:17:07Z Opodeldoc: Maybe by simplify he means compile it down to asm or something.
2016-01-28T19:18:43Z cyanboy: @Opodeldoc yes it is. except it's been encapsulated. I think he meant remove redundant code, but I don't think it is possible with that specific function.
2016-01-28T19:20:09Z Opodeldoc: I think you could replace one of the vars with another subtraction, but that would be silly.
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2016-01-28T19:34:29Z Opodeldoc: Hang on I might have it
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2016-01-28T19:46:35Z Opodeldoc: Nope. Think he's just screwing with ya.
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2016-01-28T20:38:33Z cyanboy: @Opodeldoc lol, that's what I figured. Unless I implement the non-tail recursive version tho.
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2016-01-28T23:25:01Z n_blownapart: hello still struggling to understand recursion. in this paste, the final recursion, lines 17-18, involve an 'or' statement. what exactly happens there, say, with the list '(((with) fish))' , or with wherever those lines are used in this case? thanks https://www.refheap.com/114198
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2016-01-28T23:53:14Z Opodeldoc: n_blownapart, It returns #f? trace can probably show you how it recurs on '(((with) fish))
2016-01-28T23:58:35Z Opodeldoc: and & or specifically evaluate their args left to right if that helps, but I'm not sure what you're asking.
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2016-01-29T00:17:11Z n_blownapart: thanks Opodeldoc a lot. I was on the racket channel getting help. I'm sorting it out.
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2016-01-29T23:09:48Z oskarth: According to http://www.schemers.org/Documents/Standards/R5RS/r5rs.pdf (read) is a library procedure, which I take to mean that it's implemented using more primitive function. Where can I find a standard implementation of it? Using MIT-Scheme, but any implementation would be interesting to me.
2016-01-29T23:11:22Z Riastradh: oskarth: http://git.savannah.gnu.org/cgit/mit-scheme.git/tree/src/runtime/parse.scm
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2016-01-29T23:13:43Z Riastradh: The READ procedure is actually defined in <http://git.savannah.gnu.org/cgit/mit-scheme.git/tree/src/runtime/input.scm>, but it trivially reduces to calling PARSE-OBJECT.
2016-01-29T23:14:16Z oskarth: Aha I see, thank you Riastradh :)
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2016-01-30T05:15:05Z n_blownapart: hello I'm trying to sort out what these single clause statements that return false do. I wrote null? as +null? and ++null? to trace the results. please explain to noob : https://www.refheap.com/114249
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2016-01-30T08:29:03Z wasamasa: looks like old scheme code
2016-01-30T08:30:17Z wasamasa: and the user is no longer there, meh
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2016-01-30T10:32:06Z jackdaniel: eni: I know it's farfetched, but are you by accident played armagetron advenced game? I know person with the same nick there
2016-01-30T10:32:21Z eni: hey
2016-01-30T10:32:23Z eni: no
2016-01-30T10:32:27Z eni: it's not me
2016-01-30T10:32:37Z jackdaniel: OK :)
2016-01-30T10:32:38Z eni: i wonder what that game is...
2016-01-30T10:33:31Z jackdaniel: hrm, in original tron movie there was a game with a cycles which were turning 90° and was leaving wall-like trail on which the other cycles could crash
2016-01-30T10:33:37Z wasamasa: eni: it's a free implementation of the tron light cycle game
2016-01-30T10:33:39Z jackdaniel: and the game was inspired by it
2016-01-30T10:34:43Z eni: oh ok, i think i tried it once long long time ago on a mandrake or sth
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2016-01-30T20:41:50Z please_help: I'm trying to have a macro expand to (define (some-other-macro args) expr) but for some reason the define form is being parsed before the macro some-other-macro is expanded. How do I fix this?
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2016-01-30T21:52:50Z superturrican: is there a x such that (cons x '(1 2 3)) equals '(1 2 3) ?
2016-01-30T21:53:46Z superturrican: like (append '() '(1 2 3)) = '(1 2 3)
2016-01-30T21:54:58Z Mokuso: wow, this looks like an equation in scheme xD
2016-01-30T21:55:30Z Mokuso: sadly, I don't know
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2016-01-30T21:56:07Z Riastradh: superturrican: No.
2016-01-30T21:57:33Z superturrican: thanks I thought so
2016-01-30T21:58:26Z jcowan: hey ho
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2016-01-30T22:19:56Z n_blownapart: hi this is from little schemer. if possible, please explain lines 22 and 28-30 in the context of this paste. (other solutions confuse me). I am confused by these single-clause statements and the choice of their placement. thanks a lot.   https://www.refheap.com/114268
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2016-01-30T22:31:43Z wasamasa: looks needlessly complicated
2016-01-30T22:32:01Z wasamasa: then, this book assumes atom? is not a thing
2016-01-30T22:32:22Z n_blownapart: wasamasa: thanks so much one moment please. its an example from a book
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2016-01-30T22:32:54Z wasamasa: well, in lisp there's two cases of data
2016-01-30T22:33:04Z wasamasa: either you have an atom at hand or a s-expression
2016-01-30T22:33:27Z wasamasa: in scheme this s-expression can be the empty list as well
2016-01-30T22:33:53Z wasamasa: so to check whether something is an atom you ensure it's neither an empty nor any other kind of list
2016-01-30T22:34:07Z n_blownapart: ok thanks ... sorry I'm also getting help on another channel wasamasa. please continue if you have time every comment helps.
2016-01-30T22:34:25Z wasamasa: the rest of the code proceeds examining the basic cases before employing recursion to check the remaining parts of the lists it compares
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2016-01-30T23:01:47Z n_blownapart: thanks very much wasamasa I have plenty to study
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2016-01-31T03:07:00Z jcowan: wasamasa; traditionally "atom" means "not pair", so () counts as an atom because you cannot car-cdr recurse on it.  This is the definition in both SRFI 1 and CL.
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2016-01-31T15:12:00Z dbohdan: I was wondering what the most popular Scheme implementation was around here, so I decided to count which are mentioned the most in the channel's logs.
2016-01-31T15:12:55Z dbohdan: Here are the results: http://pastebin.com/raw/mvrH6dxD
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2016-01-31T15:14:52Z dbohdan: That paste includes separate results for 2014-2015 and for the whole 2010s so far as well as the script used to produce them.
2016-01-31T15:16:39Z dbohdan: Of course, "MIT" doesn't only mean the MIT Scheme implementation but looking at the logs, that's how it was used most of the time.
2016-01-31T15:20:33Z dpk: interesting
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2016-01-31T15:27:32Z X-Scale: Nice data, dbohdan
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2016-01-31T16:01:27Z dbohdan: Thanks.
2016-01-31T16:01:28Z dbohdan: Tell me if I've missed any implementation.
2016-01-31T16:01:42Z jackdaniel: does microscheme count?
2016-01-31T16:01:55Z dbohdan: 0004 microscheme
2016-01-31T16:02:00Z dbohdan: (That's 2014-2015. There are no mentions prior.)
2016-01-31T16:02:48Z jackdaniel: and armpit
2016-01-31T16:03:03Z jackdaniel: its for stm32
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2016-01-31T16:04:32Z dbohdan: 0000 armpit
2016-01-31T16:04:43Z jackdaniel: uhm
2016-01-31T16:04:56Z jackdaniel: conclusion: embedded devices not very popular on #scheme ;)
2016-01-31T16:13:26Z wasamasa: well, no wonder
2016-01-31T16:13:35Z wasamasa: you want maximum control on that kind of device
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2016-01-31T16:15:08Z X-Scale: I wonder when MIT/GNU Scheme started being developed. Was it still in the 80s ?
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2016-01-31T16:51:43Z ecraven: Date:   Sat Dec 13 17:04:26 1986 +0000,  Initial revision
2016-01-31T16:51:44Z ecraven: according to git
2016-01-31T16:59:21Z X-Scale: good catch
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