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2015-12-01T04:43:11Z synergistics: When I see the value of some expression and it comes up something like [compound-procedure], what is that part in the brackets? The expression's type?
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2015-12-01T20:00:50Z vaseeja: Hello. I have a newbie question. Just started with a simple program, but hitting "unbound variable" error
2015-12-01T20:01:10Z vaseeja: (define (myabs x)
2015-12-01T20:01:10Z vaseeja:   (cond ((> x 0) x)
2015-12-01T20:01:10Z vaseeja:         ((= x 0) 0)
2015-12-01T20:01:10Z vaseeja:         ((< x 0) -x)))
2015-12-01T20:01:10Z vaseeja: (myabs 23)
2015-12-01T20:01:27Z Riastradh: What unbound variable does it complain about?
2015-12-01T20:01:32Z {dpk}: -x, presumably
2015-12-01T20:01:37Z {dpk}: which should be (- x)
2015-12-01T20:02:03Z {dpk}: unary - can only apply to literal numbers when not a function, not to variables
2015-12-01T20:02:03Z Riastradh: {dpk}: Thanks, I couldn't figure that one out myself.
2015-12-01T20:02:24Z vaseeja: thats right. thanks {dpk}
2015-12-01T20:02:45Z jackdaniel: vaseeja: have you considered using function abs?
2015-12-01T20:02:49Z Riastradh: Wouldn't bother asking someone a carefully guided question if I could figure out the answer myself, now, would I?
2015-12-01T20:03:02Z {dpk}: heh, sorry
2015-12-01T20:03:14Z jackdaniel: oh, it's named myabs, mb. Just an excercise
2015-12-01T20:03:21Z vaseeja: jackdaniel: just learning how to use 'cond'
2015-12-01T20:03:25Z jackdaniel: right
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2015-12-01T20:20:40Z 
2015-12-01T20:20:40Z names: ccl-logbot mumptai vaseeja przl alezost niklasl4 gravicappa pjb ee_cc neoncontrails LeoNerd annodomini acarrico cemerick juanfra ASau askatasuna alexshendi dxtr Riastradh agumonkey sethalves _sjs stepnem Mokuso oleo gf3 jcowan na_th_an _0x5eb_ seg leppie davexunit micmus stephe tristero m1dnight_ rx80 dTal karswell DGASAU nilg mmos z0d bjz LucyParsons excelsior scrmpy ArneBab aap stamourv balkamos chishiki octo_ diginet b4283 vikraman wingo nowhere_man
2015-12-01T20:20:40Z names: cross luxbock narendraj9 asumu ecraven averell tstc akkad blubjr jrdnull zacts emacsomancer profess keemyb githogori mario-goulart dan64 NeverDie Guest7161 rudybot Guest79752 cojy haroldwu defanor carc kwmiebach drdo harmchop marcoecc stasku_ cartwright wailord rotty ELLIOTTCABLE igajsin ineiros stux|work phcrist mach XTL em GGMethos snits copec Tenhi_ nisstyre Razz jkraemer Saeren larion caolanm jrslepak ivan\ vishesh benaiah gabot eagleflo kbtr mlaine
2015-12-01T20:20:40Z names: ozzloy Tbone139 mrowe joneshf-laptop SHODAN cjh` cky fikusz kephra mikeyhc duper evhan fizzie dbohdan choas_ fgudin chu failproofshark dsp-_ lloda tm512 taylan rsully yosafbridge dsp TheRealPygo aeth ByronJohnson scoofy strtok henrytill ohama micro`_ foof`` twem2_ clog samw3 eMBee snow_bckspc ft jackdaniel SirDayBat tephra petercommand yrdz` cdidd ski teiresias low-profile PinealGlandOptic Jasu_M Mike57 jxanthony nitrix moredhel cmatei torpig renopt_ ec\_
2015-12-01T20:20:40Z names: dualbus add^_ Blkt Riviera jyc shardz samth ggherdov antoszka greghendershott {dpk} Neet emmanueloga wattenbarger1 crtstuff sytse strmpnk beagles haasn joast saul Khisanth metaf5 wasamasa shrewm Tenhi hive-mind NaNDude cibs C-Keen weinholt gnomon tessier finnrobi ir2ivps5 Kryo r0kc4t nchambers taij33n DerGuteMoritz dmiles_afk fadein zbigniew
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2015-12-01T20:32:05Z vaseeja: quit
2015-12-01T20:39:08Z blubjr: no
2015-12-01T20:39:41Z gnomon: /tableflip
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2015-12-01T20:54:42Z pjb: {dpk}: -42 is not an operation unary minus!
2015-12-01T20:54:50Z pjb: {dpk}: it's a syntax for negative integers.
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2015-12-01T20:55:51Z pjb: {dpk}: in APL, there was the distinction between -4 <=> (- 4) and ‾4 <=> -4
2015-12-01T20:55:57Z pjb: IIRC.
2015-12-01T20:56:34Z pjb: in lisp, the difference is indicated by the parentheses. (…) <=> application of an operator.
2015-12-01T20:56:43Z pjb: without parenthesis, no operator.
2015-12-01T20:58:47Z ecraven: pjb: why was there a need for two different operators? just convenience in literals?
2015-12-01T20:59:46Z gnomon: literal syntax vs. monadic negation op on a literal.
2015-12-01T21:00:03Z {dpk}: in mathematical notation, unary minus is the same as notation for negative integers …
2015-12-01T21:00:47Z Riastradh: The idea pjb is getting at is that the - in -42.8 is just part of the syntax, not a compositional operator, much like the . in it too.
2015-12-01T21:00:59Z {dpk}: right
2015-12-01T21:01:30Z ecraven: jcowan: thanks for the elucidation on titlecase yesterday, I should really read a recent unicode standard, it's been a long time
2015-12-01T21:02:09Z pjb: ecraven: because there wasn't two operators. There was a single operator - and a clearly distinct syntax for minus sign, so no confusion between a syntax and an operator could occur.
2015-12-01T21:02:25Z pjb: Same in lisp, where (- x) is an operator being applied, and -4 is syntax being read.
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2015-12-01T21:04:40Z pjb: {dpk}: mathematicians have a tendency of slide over details like that.  But given that negative numbers exist by themselves (ie. they're equivalence classes with representants like (3 4) just like a positive number would be an equivalence class with representants like (4 3)), there's little justification to find negative numbers only starting from positive numbers and applying a minus operation on them.
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2015-12-01T21:18:34Z jcowan: Does anyone know why CL uses pseudo-struct notation for complex numbers rather than standard mathematical notation?
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2015-12-01T21:24:39Z pjb: jcowan: basically, the standardization commitee didn't want to specify too many different syntaxes.  So they just used the dispatching macro character #\# for everything but the most classic lisp notations (" ( ' ` and ;).
2015-12-01T21:25:03Z pjb: jcowan: now, of course, you can implement your own syntax for complex numbers easily enough.
2015-12-01T21:25:38Z pjb: jcowan: also notice that you have to choose which users you will alienate: the standard mathematical notation is not the one used by physicists.
2015-12-01T21:25:46Z pjb: 1+2i vs 1+2j
2015-12-01T21:26:42Z jcowan: pjb: Sure, thanks.  Of course, if quaternions were standard we'd have to have both of them
2015-12-01T21:27:26Z pjb: and they'd be different then :-)
2015-12-01T21:27:39Z jcowan: right
2015-12-01T21:27:58Z pjb: jcowan: now, this can be a failing of the CL standard you might complain about: the lack of (extensibility) of the numerical tower.
2015-12-01T21:28:11Z pjb: For example, have a look at a recent discussion of clisp long-float.
2015-12-01T21:29:23Z jcowan: What I like about quaternions is that ai+bj+ck+d can be rewritten as (d+ai)+(b+ci)j, which is what justifies calling them hypercomplex numbers.
2015-12-01T21:29:34Z pjb: CL:PI is specified to be a constant to the value of Pi with the best long-float precision. But in clisp, the precision of long-float can be changed dynamically, so the value of CL:PI changes (not a constant anymore).  Since there are predicartes such as CONSTANTP, this breaks conformity. Various solutions are possible, but quite ugly in general.
2015-12-01T21:29:48Z jcowan: Eww, that is awful
2015-12-01T21:29:58Z pjb: Also, if you wanted to introduce real real numbers, in the numerical tower, it'd be rather problematic.
2015-12-01T21:30:25Z pjb: jcowan: awful, but quite nice to be able to start the programs by stating you want 1000 or 10000 digits of precision to your floating point numbers…
2015-12-01T21:31:11Z pjb: For real reals, we could integrate something like realib or some other alternatives.  But this would also break some strict definitions in the standard. THis would have to be treated as some kind of not 100% compatible extension.
2015-12-01T21:31:28Z pjb: Integrating unicode into CL also is not entirely without problems.
2015-12-01T21:32:00Z pjb: So, there are a few points where it could be criticized, but this is not what you hear in general.
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2015-12-01T21:33:18Z jcowan: Integrating Unicode into Scheme is not quite trivial either: there were pretty severe wars in WG1 about it.
2015-12-01T21:33:26Z pjb: That said, it'd be easy enough to add quaternion and any other kind of numbers, as a CL library (ie. without changing the existing type structure).
2015-12-01T21:33:38Z pjb: Only instead of using CL:+ you'd use YOUR-NUMBER:+ etc.
2015-12-01T21:33:51Z jcowan nods.
2015-12-01T21:34:35Z jcowan: It's just a pity that lots of things were already fixed in CL before CLOS came along: many functions aren't generic or are insufficiently generic.  Haskell gets it right with its highly factored numeric tower.
2015-12-01T21:35:01Z pjb: Yes.
2015-12-01T21:36:03Z pjb: But on the other hand, you can always invent a new kind of numbers, so even if a language was "complete" on this subject, it could be obsoleted by using a new kind of numbers it doesn't provide natively.
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2015-12-01T21:39:41Z jcowan: Well, no, not if it was properly genericized with at least multiple inheritance of interfaces.
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2015-12-01T21:41:16Z pjb: You can count on mathematicians to introduce categories that will give you headaches to place them in a multiple inheritance graph.
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2015-12-01T21:44:03Z jcowan: If I were going to break CL, that's how I would break it: make everything fully generic
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2015-12-01T21:45:22Z pjb: You can write such a package easily enough.
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2015-12-01T21:45:34Z daviid: jcowan: 1+
2015-12-01T21:46:20Z pjb: (defpackage "GENERIC-CL" (:use "CL") (:export "CAR" …)) (defgeneric generic-cl:car (x) (:method ((x list)) (cl:car x))) …
2015-12-01T21:46:40Z pjb: (defpackage "GENERIC-CL" (:use "CL") (:shadow "CAR" …) (:export "CAR" …))
2015-12-01T21:47:00Z pjb: then instead of (defpackage "MY-PROGRAM" (:use "CL"))  you write (defpackage "MY-PROGRAM" (:use "GENERIC-CL"))
2015-12-01T21:47:52Z pjb: This technique is used for example by MCLIM. When you write a MCLIM application, you (:use "MCLIM-LISP") instead of "CL", to get the variant of defclass and defmethod to do CLIM UI and presentations right.
2015-12-01T21:48:08Z jcowan: Well, sure.  But CL compilers seem to come with a lot of specialized knowledge about the functions defined in the CL package, which there is no portable way to extend.
2015-12-01T21:48:31Z pjb: jcowan: I just show you how you can extend it portably and conformingly.
2015-12-01T21:48:56Z jcowan: So performance of generic-cl programs would suck when run on standard CL engines
2015-12-01T21:49:11Z pjb: not more than any other OO program.
2015-12-01T21:49:28Z pjb: Assumedly if you want generic functions it's because you plan to add methods.
2015-12-01T21:49:35Z pjb: (car #(1 2 3)) --> 1
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2015-12-01T21:50:07Z pjb: so it won't be worse than doing (defgeneric first-element (s) (:method ((s list)) (car s)) (:method ((s vector)) (aref s 0))).
2015-12-01T21:52:06Z jcowan: No, it wouldn't.  But e.g. does SBLC know how to detect monomorphic calls to generic functions and open-code them?
2015-12-01T21:52:56Z pjb: I'd assume with enough declaration or type inference it would be able.
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2015-12-01T21:59:18Z jcowan: Well, yes, but if you have to declare types at the point of call, you might as well be writing in Scheme
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2015-12-01T22:46:10Z vaseeja: hello. could someone suggest if and how this code could be improved? this is a solution to a problem in the SICP book.
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2015-12-01T22:46:27Z vaseeja: Define a procedure that takes three numbers as arguments and returns the sum of the squares of the two larger numbers.
2015-12-01T22:46:39Z vaseeja: here is my solution
2015-12-01T22:46:49Z vaseeja: (define (sum_square a b)
2015-12-01T22:46:49Z vaseeja:   (+ (* a a) (* b b)))
2015-12-01T22:46:49Z vaseeja: (define (sum_square_greater a b c)
2015-12-01T22:46:49Z vaseeja:     (if (> a b)
2015-12-01T22:46:49Z vaseeja:         (if (> b c)
2015-12-01T22:46:52Z vaseeja:             (sum_square a b)
2015-12-01T22:46:54Z vaseeja:             (sum_square a c))
2015-12-01T22:46:57Z vaseeja:         (if (> a c)
2015-12-01T22:46:59Z vaseeja:             (sum_square b a)
2015-12-01T22:47:02Z vaseeja:             (sum_square b c))))
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2015-12-02T02:37:34Z Riastradh: A worthwhile read on cryptography and social responsibility: http://web.cs.ucdavis.edu/~rogaway/papers/moral-fn.pdf
2015-12-02T02:38:08Z Riastradh: Broader social responsibility in computing, that is.
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2015-12-02T06:26:36Z contrapunctus: taylan: ping
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2015-12-02T06:33:59Z jackdaniel: is here some "memo" bot?
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2015-12-02T06:50:25Z Mokuso: well, you have memoserv, if that helps
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2015-12-02T07:04:28Z jackdaniel: thanks
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2015-12-02T07:42:45Z taylan: contrapunctus: pong
2015-12-02T07:44:41Z contrapunctus: taylan: I found out why Chicken doesn't have syntax-case...too difficult to implement - http://lists.nongnu.org/archive/html/chicken-users/2009-11/msg00020.html
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2015-12-02T07:51:29Z taylan: yeah...
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2015-12-02T07:51:42Z taylan: syntax-case is really The Right Thing if you ask me though
2015-12-02T07:52:08Z taylan: it perfectly reifies the notion that identifiers have syntax context
2015-12-02T07:52:09Z contrapunctus: Yeah, was really looking forward to it
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2015-12-02T23:06:36Z csguest: yo can anyone please look at my code and see why right-justify is running into an infinite loop
2015-12-02T23:06:37Z csguest: (define sudo-cons
2015-12-02T23:06:37Z csguest:   (lambda (ls str)
2015-12-02T23:06:37Z csguest:     (cond ((null? ls) str)
2015-12-02T23:06:37Z csguest:           (else (stream-cons (car ls) (sudo-cons (cdr ls) str))))))
2015-12-02T23:06:39Z csguest: wiios
2015-12-02T23:06:41Z csguest: im sorry
2015-12-02T23:06:46Z csguest: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xmhrohsNJ7Y
2015-12-02T23:06:48Z csguest: wtf
2015-12-02T23:07:05Z csguest: my clipboard is all messed up: http://pastebin.com/cVmi6420
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2015-12-03T00:02:31Z pjb: csguest: In sudo-cdr, this line is suspicious: ((char=? #\newline (stream-first str)) (stream->list str))
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2015-12-03T00:06:36Z csguest: i fixed it
2015-12-03T00:06:41Z csguest: still didnt work
2015-12-03T00:06:57Z csguest: it returns str but alas still infinite :(
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2015-12-03T21:21:47Z pflanze: Hi. There's a programming technique I never learned, that helps reducing computational complexity in algorithms.
2015-12-03T21:22:07Z pflanze: I forgot its name.
2015-12-03T21:22:18Z wasamasa: dynamic programming?
2015-12-03T21:22:45Z pflanze: Genetic programming comes to mind but that's not it.
2015-12-03T21:23:05Z pflanze: Any idea?
2015-12-03T21:24:31Z pflanze: (Seen it in the context of Scheme.)
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2015-12-03T21:26:07Z wasamasa: memoization?
2015-12-03T21:27:43Z pflanze: Dynamic programming is it, thanks!
2015-12-03T21:29:07Z wasamasa: I've only seen examples for it with python, mind you
2015-12-03T21:32:48Z pflanze: I'm planning to present it in perl.
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2015-12-03T23:01:20Z pjb: pflanze: reduction of complexity is archieved by mean of abstraction.  There are several ways to abstract things.
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2015-12-03T23:06:01Z Riastradh: Reduction of complexity is achieved by quotients!
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2015-12-03T23:18:10Z pjb: Riastradh: complex quotients then.
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2015-12-03T23:55:52Z jcowan: Six kinds of quotients
2015-12-03T23:56:04Z jcowan: right now we have only two, but soon we will have six
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2015-12-04T05:04:22Z octo_: is "dynamic-wind" pronounced like winding a clock or like a "wind"ow
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2015-12-04T06:29:14Z pjb: octo_: former.
2015-12-04T06:29:42Z pjb: It comes from unwind-protect.
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2015-12-04T08:58:48Z taylan: Guile has euclidean-, floor-, ceiling-, truncate-, centered-, and round-quotient.  pretty crazy.
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2015-12-04T15:36:34Z taylan: Riastradh: do you have an opinion on http://srfi-email.schemers.org/srfi-126/msg/3160609 ?
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2015-12-04T16:03:57Z Riastradh: taylan: Not really.  We argued about it in MIT Scheme.  Probably the resolution we settled on, which is the one you proposed, is reasonable, although I objected to it at the time on the grounds that applications which do STRING->SYMBOL on externally supplied inputs (e.g., from the internet) are likely to enable remote DoS by preventing GC of symbols.
2015-12-04T16:07:36Z Riastradh: That is, if symbols are never stored weakly in hash tables, then that is likely to enable remote DoS.
2015-12-04T16:08:38Z Riastradh: By the way, no citation of SRFI 124 for ephemerons to implement ephemeral tables?
2015-12-04T16:08:50Z taylan: hmm, interesting.
2015-12-04T16:09:18Z taylan: I guess I can refer to SRFI-124.  I didn't actually pay much attention to it while writing SRFI-126.
2015-12-04T16:09:43Z Riastradh: The obvious response to my objection is `so don't do that, duh', and that's probably a better response.
2015-12-04T16:11:36Z taylan: well it's nice when a language makes it harder to write serious bugs...
2015-12-04T16:12:33Z Riastradh: Unrelated: a fun project someone should undertake is to render the NaCl (crypto) API in Scheme, probably as a SRFI rather than just a bundle of code, since implementing it properly requires nonvarying-time arithmetic.
2015-12-04T16:13:20Z Riastradh: Or write a SRFI for constant-time (the term in the literature for what I just called `nonvarying-time') mod-2^n arithmetic.
2015-12-04T16:13:23Z gnomon: Riastradh, hmmmm.
2015-12-04T16:13:29Z gnomon: Riastradh, I like that idea.
2015-12-04T16:13:33Z gnomon: Both of those ideas, really.
2015-12-04T16:14:02Z Riastradh: gnomon: Did you read Phil Rogaway's essay?  If not, you should!
2015-12-04T16:14:16Z gnomon: Riastradh, I have not!  I will enqueue it forthwith.
2015-12-04T16:14:20Z Riastradh: http://web.cs.ucdavis.edu/~rogaway/papers/moral-fn.pdf
2015-12-04T16:14:25Z Riastradh: (So should everyone else here.)
2015-12-04T16:14:33Z taylan: I'll put this on my long-term todo, though it's a long list :)
2015-12-04T16:14:34Z gnomon: Oh, hah!  I have enqueued that one already, I recognize the URL.
2015-12-04T16:15:25Z Riastradh: I wrote a mock-up of some of it -- variable-time X25519 (and generic Curve25519 arithmetic): http://mumble.net/~campbell/scheme/curve25519.scm
2015-12-04T16:16:12Z gnomon: Riastradh, I apologize for writing an elinks user-agent instead of emacs-web-wowser into your Referer: log.
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2015-12-04T16:16:17Z gnomon: er
2015-12-04T16:16:40Z gnomon: httpd access log.  How the heck did "Referer:" end up in that sentence!?  Get it together, brain.
2015-12-04T16:17:02Z Riastradh: By `some of it', I mean `some of the NaCl API', except it's really just one of the algorithms inside, not the NaCl API.
2015-12-04T16:18:01Z Riastradh: gnomon: Hmm...is there browser cleansing going on in the Emacs world these days?
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2015-12-04T16:20:14Z taylan: emacs has a relatively new (came with 24 I think?) text web browser written in Elisp called EWW
2015-12-04T16:20:20Z taylan: not sure how many people use it
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2015-12-04T16:20:37Z ggole: That name though.
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2015-12-04T16:22:20Z Riastradh: Hm.  Four different `IrssiUrlLog' users simultaneously fetched it just before gnomon's elinks mistake.
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2015-12-04T16:26:02Z gnomon: Must be folks just capturing any URL mentioned in the channel.  That's an interesting choice.
2015-12-04T16:27:13Z Riastradh: http://mumble.net/~campbell/tmp/evilfirefoxexploitransomware.vb.js.zip.php.doc
2015-12-04T16:27:13Z rudybot: http://teensy.info/m6RT5r07d5
2015-12-04T16:27:19Z Riastradh: Heh.
2015-12-04T16:27:50Z Riastradh: rudybot amplified it to eight hits.
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2015-12-04T16:29:08Z gnomon: I wonder how this could easily be abused.
2015-12-04T16:29:18Z gnomon: Riastradh, are they actual GET requests, or just HEAD?
2015-12-04T16:29:28Z Riastradh: Oh, just HEAD.
2015-12-04T16:29:56Z gnomon: Fiddlesticks.
2015-12-04T16:34:13Z jcowan: taylan: Did you see my response re: GCing weakly held numbers?
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2015-12-04T16:36:37Z taylan: yeah, replying...
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2015-12-04T16:38:08Z h0wl3vvd: in scheme only scripts can be written
2015-12-04T16:38:08Z h0wl3vvd: ?
2015-12-04T16:38:50Z jcowan: h0wl3vvd: No, not at all.
2015-12-04T16:39:00Z jcowan: If by that you mean that all Scheme systems are interpreters.
2015-12-04T16:41:23Z h0wl3vvd: hmm
2015-12-04T16:41:43Z h0wl3vvd: im spot a opinions that definition of script is hes interpreted
2015-12-04T16:42:09Z h0wl3vvd: idk what is strict diffrence between a program or a script
2015-12-04T16:42:17Z h0wl3vvd: if its interpreter can be a program too ?
2015-12-04T16:44:48Z Menche: a script is a program
2015-12-04T16:45:28Z h0wl3vvd: but should be some boards
2015-12-04T16:46:18Z Menche: ??
2015-12-04T16:46:37Z h0wl3vvd: all programs are script also ?
2015-12-04T16:46:40Z wasamasa: the term "script" is close to useless
2015-12-04T16:46:49Z wasamasa: similiar to the term "OOP"
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2015-12-04T16:47:57Z h0wl3vvd: okay
2015-12-04T16:48:23Z h0wl3vvd: but whats the diffrence
2015-12-04T16:48:23Z h0wl3vvd: then
2015-12-04T16:49:12Z Menche: "script" generally refers to programs that are interpreted line-by-line without being compiled first
2015-12-04T16:50:48Z Menche: most schemes can be run this way
2015-12-04T16:50:56Z Menche: many can optionally be compiled
2015-12-04T16:52:29Z taylan: "script" doesn't even mean that to me.  I can write a "script" in Guile and put it into my ~/bin, and Guile will byte-code compile that automatically before execution.
2015-12-04T16:52:32Z h0wl3vvd: compiled to byte code what is intepreted too
2015-12-04T16:53:06Z taylan: (maybe that's still keeping up an illusion of interpretation though, which is perhaps the point)
2015-12-04T16:53:17Z h0wl3vvd: illusion ?
2015-12-04T16:53:19Z taylan: anyway, Scheme code can be interpreted, byte-code compiled, native compiled, ...
2015-12-04T16:53:26Z h0wl3vvd: but that byte-code
2015-12-04T16:53:29Z h0wl3vvd: is also intepreted
2015-12-04T16:53:38Z taylan: h0wl3vvd: you can still "execute" the source code file directly; it's compiled transparently.
2015-12-04T16:53:57Z taylan: (and the compile result cached)
2015-12-04T16:54:10Z h0wl3vvd: but binary programs are interpreted by processor
2015-12-04T16:54:16Z h0wl3vvd: byte code is interpreted by program
2015-12-04T16:54:21Z taylan: binary isn't source code
2015-12-04T16:54:24Z h0wl3vvd: yes
2015-12-04T16:54:31Z h0wl3vvd: im dont told that
2015-12-04T16:59:43Z h0wl3vvd: kk thanks
2015-12-04T16:59:44Z h0wl3vvd: :)
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2015-12-04T16:59:53Z Menche: o_O
2015-12-04T17:00:41Z taylan: language barriers...  happy I was helpful :P
2015-12-04T17:01:41Z ecraven: taylan: just for the sake of discussion, a binary format that can be mapped 1:1 to source text, would that be "source code"?
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2015-12-04T17:02:07Z taylan: one pedantry point for ecraven!
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2015-12-04T20:13:27Z JohnnyonFlame: Hello there. I'm trying to trace a function call to check if its tail recursive or not, but I'm unable to get anything to print. I'm using GUILE on Msys2. i'm using (display (call-with-trace read-token))
2015-12-04T20:13:39Z JohnnyonFlame: and (use-modules (system vm trace))
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2015-12-04T20:22:33Z n_blownapart: hi is racket a good package for a beginner to learn scheme ? I downloaded mit-scheme and cannot get the config right within sublimeText3
2015-12-04T20:24:54Z wasamasa: sure
2015-12-04T20:25:03Z cojy: i don't know anything about sublime integration but yes racket is a good option
2015-12-04T20:25:03Z wasamasa: racket comes with its own IDE btw, so no need for sublime text
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2015-12-04T20:29:18Z n_blownapart: excellent wasamasa cojy thank you
2015-12-04T20:29:20Z davexunit: sublime text is also proprietary software, whereas DrRacket is free
2015-12-04T20:30:28Z n_blownapart: davexunit: yeah I abuse sublime since you can use it freely .. hey, I bought a book called the little schemer. what say you all?
2015-12-04T20:31:44Z davexunit: n_blownapart: sublime cannot be used freely, it is proprietary.
2015-12-04T20:31:58Z davexunit: "free" here means "freedom"
2015-12-04T20:32:15Z davexunit: "the little schemer" is very good
2015-12-04T20:33:09Z cojy: haave you done the little prover yet davexunit
2015-12-04T20:33:18Z n_blownapart: cojy wasamasa davexunit if you all don't mind , I have some questions: I learned ruby as my first language. didn't understand a word of it, except that I can recognize bits and pieces. someone on the C channel told me to learn scheme. I realized that I couldn't see what ruby was ever doing very clearly.
2015-12-04T20:33:36Z n_blownapart: davexunit: no, I saw it .. is that like mathematical thinking?
2015-12-04T20:34:25Z davexunit: cojy: nope, that reminds me that I should go buy it tonight.
2015-12-04T20:34:31Z davexunit: 40% of at MIT Press
2015-12-04T20:34:49Z cojy: nice
2015-12-04T20:34:55Z n_blownapart: davexunit:  by the way sublime can be used indefinitely : with every 15 or 20 saves, it asks you to purchase. You cancel, then get another round of saves.
2015-12-04T20:35:19Z davexunit: but that's not what I'm talking about
2015-12-04T20:35:40Z davexunit: sublime is not free software, that is you cannot see the source code, or modify it, or redistribute those modifications
2015-12-04T20:35:41Z n_blownapart: davexunit: sorry I'm not sophisticated in your use of freedom.
2015-12-04T20:36:11Z davexunit: software that doesn't have these qualities puts the developer in control of the user
2015-12-04T20:36:59Z n_blownapart: oh yeah. It's way too complicated for my purposes anyway. I see davexunit well I am to naive to be controlled by someone who designs a text editor.
2015-12-04T20:37:08Z n_blownapart: too*
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2015-12-04T20:38:00Z n_blownapart: but appreciate your time. so what is the little prover ? I'm mildly mathematical.
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2015-12-04T20:40:53Z n_blownapart: also, do you people agree that ruby or OOP is too abstract for a beginner to grasp, and its better to start with something like lisp/scheme/haskell ?
2015-12-04T20:40:54Z davexunit: n_blownapart: it's the latest book in the series that started with "the little schemer"
2015-12-04T20:41:13Z davexunit: n_blownapart: I don't believe that, but I do believe that Scheme is a better language.
2015-12-04T20:41:38Z davexunit: Scheme supports many programming paradigms, which makes it a very intersting language to use for exploring many ways of computing things.
2015-12-04T20:42:18Z rekor: i've recently started reading SICP. it's been tough, but i've at least seen a lucid flow of the material from section to section, until i reached the Orders of Growth section in chapter 1; it makes absolutely no sense and seems terribly explained to a novice programmer with no programming experience.
2015-12-04T20:42:47Z wasamasa: fortunately SICP isn't aimed at these
2015-12-04T20:42:54Z wasamasa: it's an undergrad text
2015-12-04T20:42:59Z davexunit: rekor: keep in mind the audience that SICP was developed for: undergraduate students at MIT
2015-12-04T20:43:07Z n_blownapart: davexunit: the books are highly praised. glad you agree. Im going for it. many people think it is the best place to start. there is a book called ruby under a microscope that deals with C , but I kept being led to scheme et al.
2015-12-04T20:43:37Z davexunit: n_blownapart: Scheme has transformed me a programmer more than any other language.
2015-12-04T20:44:10Z rekor: well, i reckon i've simply been terribly misinformed, as a many online poster, from forums to quora to amazon, have said the book was a good starting point for a novice programmer.
2015-12-04T20:44:18Z n_blownapart: davexunit: that is excellent to hear. I am stoked.
2015-12-04T20:44:29Z rekor: and it actually seemed like a nice starting point until i met this section.
2015-12-04T20:44:38Z n_blownapart: rekor I heard HTDP2 is a better book for beginners.
2015-12-04T20:44:45Z wasamasa: granted, chapter 1 is sort of boring with its focus on maths
2015-12-04T20:45:01Z davexunit: rekor: SICP does not assume previous programming knowledge
2015-12-04T20:45:18Z davexunit: but it does assume things like calculus knowledge for many examples
2015-12-04T20:45:36Z n_blownapart: hmmm
2015-12-04T20:45:37Z davexunit: rekor: there's also a whole series of lectures on MIT OpenCourseware that you can reference
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2015-12-04T20:48:19Z n_blownapart: ok so racket it is. any package in mind for a debian machine?
2015-12-04T20:48:28Z wasamasa: the racket package?
2015-12-04T20:48:33Z n_blownapart: Y
2015-12-04T20:48:55Z n_blownapart: like there are a zillion camps for everything... wasamasa
2015-12-04T20:49:28Z wasamasa: I'd expect the .deb to hold racket to be named... "racket"
2015-12-04T20:49:45Z wasamasa: I know, terribly anticlimatic
2015-12-04T20:49:55Z n_blownapart: ok whatever comes up ... :) yeah
2015-12-04T20:50:01Z wasamasa: https://packages.debian.org/jessie/racket
2015-12-04T20:50:46Z n_blownapart: thanks all kindly. hopefully I will not annoy you too much in the future.
2015-12-04T20:51:39Z rekor: could one of you explain this "Order(s) of Growth" a little better than abelson does in the section, like a succinct tl;dr version or anything
2015-12-04T20:51:59Z rekor: i'd rather not put this book down because of this terribly explained section alone, but i have a feeling the material will be used later as well
2015-12-04T20:55:13Z n_blownapart: rekor  In my journey I was encouraged to start out with 'the little schemer'
2015-12-04T20:55:23Z n_blownapart: just 2 cents ^
2015-12-04T20:55:44Z wasamasa: an undergrad student will figure out stuff themselves :P
2015-12-04T20:56:34Z n_blownapart: I'm middled aged. this stuff is scary.
2015-12-04T20:57:23Z wasamasa: it's not, this section actually explains computational complexity in an easier way than, say, the wikipedia page on it
2015-12-04T20:59:58Z rekor: it is a bit succinct, but i have a feeling prior understanding of *something* is necessary to understand what the section is trying to teach -- something not explain at the point, because the other sections at least flowed into each other, so to speak; this seems out of the blue, imo
2015-12-04T21:02:22Z rekor: it seems related to something i've found called "big o notation", though it makes no mention of it
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2015-12-04T21:03:14Z wasamasa: which is part of the topic of computational complexity
2015-12-04T21:04:19Z rekor: yes, i'm sure, but the section that seemingly introduces computation complexity and uses that notation makes no mention of it regardless
2015-12-04T21:04:25Z wasamasa: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Analysis_of_algorithms#Orders_of_growth
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2015-12-04T21:05:47Z wasamasa: "This concept is frequently expressed using Big O notation."
2015-12-04T21:06:11Z wasamasa: it may be the most frequently encountered form of it, but not the only one
2015-12-04T21:06:18Z wasamasa: what is used there is the big omega notation
2015-12-04T21:06:56Z wasamasa: anyways, it doesn't matter this much, the section is more about having a grasp about the problem size and how it affects the time required to run the algorithm
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2015-12-04T21:07:51Z wasamasa: or no, that's a big theta
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2015-12-04T21:08:48Z rekor: so, i can skip it without facing major repercussions in later sections?
2015-12-04T21:08:55Z wasamasa: ...
2015-12-04T21:09:08Z wasamasa: if you haven't got the knack for self-study, skip SICP alltogether
2015-12-04T21:09:49Z rekor: what in that comment gave you the impression that i don't?
2015-12-04T21:11:32Z rekor: i've been self-studying since before even being aware of this book's existence, only now taking a venture into SICP and the functional paradigm
2015-12-04T21:11:38Z wasamasa: I'll let you meditate on that
2015-12-04T21:12:15Z davexunit: rekor: it's likely that one of the SICP video lectures for chapter 1 will be helpful
2015-12-04T21:12:42Z davexunit: I just don't know which video talks about time/space complexity
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2015-12-04T21:15:00Z rekor: davexunit: i'll browse through the youtube playlist i've found and see if i can find it. thanks for actually being of help rather than argumentative and petty
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2015-12-04T21:20:39Z rekor: ah, okay. sussman goes into computational complexity around the 26:25 mark of the second lecture vid; once again, thanks for actually being of help, davexunit
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2015-12-04T21:21:56Z davexunit: rekor: great!  hope it's helpful
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2015-12-05T00:15:32Z n_blownapart: hi well I installed racket/ dr racket as suggested to learn scheme. now there are a lot of languages. what if I wanted to use the book 'the little schemer' with racket ? is one language geared for that and a beginner within racket ?
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2015-12-05T02:49:13Z agni: i've been going through the 99 lisp problems in lua
2015-12-05T02:49:16Z agni: paaainful
2015-12-05T02:49:24Z agni: makes me really appreciate scheme
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2015-12-05T02:54:51Z pjb: agni: start by implementing scheme in lua ;-)
2015-12-05T02:55:16Z pjb: (the 99 problems were prolog problems initially :-))
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2015-12-05T02:57:25Z agni: oh, yeah, right
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2015-12-05T06:38:58Z zacts: hello schemers
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2015-12-05T08:05:58Z gosukiwi: Hello all! Is there a way I can use something like "macroexpand" in MIT Scheme? Debugging macros is hard for me :(
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2015-12-05T08:33:30Z jackdaniel: https://www.gnu.org/software/mit-scheme/documentation/mit-scheme-ref/Binding-Index.html#Binding-Index would be the best place to look, but I don't see anything alike there
2015-12-05T08:33:30Z rudybot: http://teensy.info/52bKTDyUEa
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2015-12-05T21:15:09Z gosukiwi: Hello! Is there a way to easily debug macros in MIT Scheme? Something like Lisp's "macroexpand-1"?
2015-12-05T21:15:23Z jcowan: Syntax-rules macros?
2015-12-05T21:15:56Z jcowan: A simple approach is to put ' before the right-hand side of each syntax rule.
2015-12-05T21:16:29Z ecraven: <ecraven> (define (macro-expand form)
2015-12-05T21:16:29Z ecraven: <ecraven>   (pp (syntax form (nearest-repl/environment))))
2015-12-05T21:16:46Z ecraven: macroexpand-1 I don't know, don't think that's easily possible
2015-12-05T21:18:05Z gosukiwi: It uses er-macro-transformer, looks like this: http://pastebin.com/peUDmb7w
2015-12-05T21:19:17Z ecraven: gosukiwi: you can use what I posted to fully expand a macro and look at the expansion
2015-12-05T21:20:27Z gosukiwi: Oh, thanks, I'll try that out :)
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2015-12-06T02:03:47Z n_blownapart: hi can light table be integrated with scheme interpreters?
2015-12-06T02:04:18Z n_blownapart: I tried with sublimeText .. nightmare
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2015-12-06T02:25:40Z n_blownapart: hello, anyone on?
2015-12-06T02:28:27Z pjb: probably, but there's no need to answer you since you'll be gone before we can even try.
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2015-12-06T02:43:53Z n_blownapart: pjb I'm new. thanks for responding
2015-12-06T02:44:41Z n_blownapart: I had questions about editors. I was having a tough time with drracket. first time on a linux system I got malware.
2015-12-06T02:44:57Z Riastradh: Got malware?
2015-12-06T02:45:53Z n_blownapart: yeah drracket screwed up my system. I was getting weird ghost duplicate file names i.e. ##square.rkt# next to square.rkt
2015-12-06T02:46:21Z n_blownapart: I had to reinstall the os
2015-12-06T02:46:47Z Riastradh: I don't know about DrRacket, but in Emacs, that is just an auto-save file, so that you don't lose work if your system crashes before you've saved the file.
2015-12-06T02:47:07Z n_blownapart: so I am inquiring about easy editors that integrate with scheme mit-scheme guile et al.
2015-12-06T02:48:22Z Riastradh: I would guess it's the same in DrRacket.
2015-12-06T02:48:37Z n_blownapart: Riastradh, seriously? It seems like these files were like poltergeists. when I tried to remove them , it was like they added / removed hashes instead of being deleted . weird
2015-12-06T02:48:53Z Riastradh: Did you continue to edit square.rkt in DrRacket?
2015-12-06T02:49:02Z Riastradh: If so, it will probably write a new auto-save file.
2015-12-06T02:49:28Z Riastradh: That's the point of auto-save files -- they are automatically saved, but do not overwrite the file on disk in case you want to discard changes instead of saving them properly.
2015-12-06T02:50:33Z n_blownapart: well Im on a new system, and I installed drracket again, and saved one file. so far, I haven't gotten these files. I don't like them. I think it is infected somehow. Riastradh
2015-12-06T02:50:48Z n_blownapart: was*
2015-12-06T02:51:02Z Riastradh: If you save the file, it will delete the auto-save file because the auto-save file is no longer necessary.
2015-12-06T02:51:43Z Riastradh: FYI, it might also create a file named square.rkt~ if you save the file more than once, if it's like Emacs.  That's a backup file -- in case you saved when you didn't mean to and want to get the old version back.
2015-12-06T02:53:54Z Riastradh: DrRacket documentation confirms my guess: http://docs.racket-lang.org/drracket/drracket-files.html
2015-12-06T02:54:22Z Riastradh: See 3.4.2 `Backup and Autosave Files'.
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2015-12-06T02:59:06Z n_blownapart: Riastradh, thanks kindly, yes, this new install is creating square.rkt~
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2015-12-06T03:00:01Z n_blownapart: Riastradh, the tilde is a bit easier to swallow... if I could ask some general questions.
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2015-12-06T03:01:20Z n_blownapart: I was studying ruby and even after two books I felt I knew precious little... some people on the C channel suggested I learn scheme first, then an OOP language. what do you think?
2015-12-06T03:02:07Z n_blownapart: Riastradh, et al. ^^
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2015-12-06T03:08:37Z n_blownapart: any comments appreciated. ^
2015-12-06T03:09:28Z Riastradh: Sounds reasonable.  Main important thing is to do exercises and read lots of existing code, not just read prose about it.
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2015-12-06T03:19:04Z n_blownapart: Riastradh: thanks will do. I bought the little Schemer. It's arriving today.
2015-12-06T03:26:21Z n_blownapart: one more thing if anyone will: which is closer to scheme : clojure or scala ? generally...
2015-12-06T03:28:42Z Riastradh: Probably Clojure.
2015-12-06T03:30:10Z n_blownapart: Riastradh: many thanks. one day I'll get ruby.
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2015-12-06T03:41:42Z n_blownapart: Riastradh: I'm wondering if I can disable that feature, that creates the square.rkt~ files. are they called logs?
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2015-12-06T03:49:27Z Riastradh: n_blownapart: They're called backup files.  Maybe you can disable them -- but I highly recommend not doing so.  They have saved my arse on many occasions.  If you really want to, read the documentation; I don't know how to offhand.
2015-12-06T03:50:54Z n_blownapart: Riastradh: thanks, now that I know what they're called. but they don't keep the updated with the main file, if you make many saves. so they only save at the first save.
2015-12-06T03:50:59Z n_blownapart: but thanks a lot
2015-12-06T03:51:43Z n_blownapart: they look like they might be compressed .. the spacing is different.
2015-12-06T03:52:04Z Tbone139: n_blownapart: in drRacket there's Edit->Preferences->General->Auto-Save & backup option checkboxes
2015-12-06T03:55:12Z n_blownapart: Tbone139: cool thanks all !
2015-12-06T03:58:38Z Tbone139: speaking of looking at others' code, is github a good resource? Is there much suboptimal code to avoid?
2015-12-06T03:59:05Z jcowan: Tbone139: 90% of everything is crud
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2015-12-06T04:22:58Z kephra: Tbone139, debugging other peoples crap teaches a lot about coding - imho, its better if others did the errors, and I learned from them, then if I do them in one of my projects
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2015-12-06T04:38:45Z jcowan: Tbone139: It's common for much of a Scheme implementation to be written in Scheme, and there are almost 80 Scheme implementations available for you to look at, to see how the same problems are solved in massively different ways.
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2015-12-06T06:30:05Z zacts: hello schemers
2015-12-06T06:30:19Z zacts: I'm wondering if I should learn scheme first or haskell?
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2015-12-06T06:30:49Z zacts: I want to eventually learn scheme via SICP, but I'm worried about my Calculus being up to par
2015-12-06T06:31:11Z zacts: so I was thinking of doing a beginners haskell book that doesn't require as much math until I can grok it for SICP
2015-12-06T06:31:19Z zacts: (but perhaps I should just read another scheme book)
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2015-12-06T06:53:09Z kephra: zacts, SICP starts with calculus - but the main part is how to implement a scheme in scheme, imho
2015-12-06T06:54:22Z kephra: you might also just read the standard reference
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2015-12-06T06:54:49Z kephra: scheme is simple enough to understand it, if you have some other programming background
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2015-12-06T13:42:55Z h0wl3vvd: hello
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2015-12-06T13:43:29Z h0wl3vvd: i can manually managing memory in scheme ?
2015-12-06T13:43:29Z h0wl3vvd: its there a option ?
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2015-12-06T13:46:14Z davexunit: h0wl3vvd: no.
2015-12-06T13:46:38Z h0wl3vvd: i can do it in any dialect of lisp ?
2015-12-06T13:47:05Z davexunit: every lisp I know of is built on a garbage collector model
2015-12-06T13:47:14Z davexunit: scheme, and other lisps, are high-level programming languages
2015-12-06T13:47:38Z h0wl3vvd: yeah
2015-12-06T13:47:42Z davexunit: memory management is a low-level task for the computer, not the programmer.
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2015-12-06T13:47:55Z h0wl3vvd: but C have an option
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2015-12-06T13:48:30Z h0wl3vvd: language can have gargabe collector but still be able to manual allocating memory ?
2015-12-06T13:49:12Z renopt: I could see something having an interface to C malloc/free
2015-12-06T13:49:24Z renopt: i don't know of anything that does though
2015-12-06T13:50:27Z renopt: I mean, it wouldn't be very useful in the large majority of cases
2015-12-06T13:51:41Z davexunit: h0wl3vvd: in C you *always* manage memory manually
2015-12-06T13:52:00Z renopt: davexunit: not true, there's garbage collectors for C
2015-12-06T13:52:11Z davexunit: renopt: sure, with great pain you can incorporate one.
2015-12-06T13:52:14Z jackdaniel: boehm gc for instance
2015-12-06T13:52:21Z davexunit: yes I know of it
2015-12-06T13:52:22Z davexunit: guile uses it
2015-12-06T13:52:36Z jackdaniel: ecl uses it too, but it's common lisp
2015-12-06T13:52:38Z davexunit: but let's be clear that this is *not* how the C language operates
2015-12-06T13:53:10Z renopt: davexunit: C leaves some things unspecified specifically to allow for garbage collection
2015-12-06T13:53:34Z renopt: I can't recall what they were though :P
2015-12-06T13:53:57Z davexunit: no one really writes C in this way.  it's all malloc/free everywhere.
2015-12-06T13:54:24Z davexunit: h0wl3vvd: anyway, the point is that you cannot avoid the GC in Scheme, Common Lisp, etc.  The GC is your friend.
2015-12-06T13:54:44Z davexunit: garbage collection is a big factor in the semantics of these languages
2015-12-06T13:54:57Z h0wl3vvd: kk
2015-12-06T13:55:01Z h0wl3vvd: thanks
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2015-12-06T13:55:56Z jackdaniel: if you have some application and you are affraid of some slowdowns during the gc some implementations provide functionality to temporaliry disable it
2015-12-06T13:56:27Z jackdaniel: and call the GC manually (ie *after* the work done in one loop cycle)
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2015-12-06T13:57:41Z h0wl3vvd: so i can disable gc in code
2015-12-06T13:57:49Z h0wl3vvd: and allocate it manually, then turn it again
2015-12-06T13:57:59Z h0wl3vvd: scheme provide interface for that
2015-12-06T13:57:59Z h0wl3vvd: ?
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2015-12-06T13:58:38Z renopt: not scheme itself, implementations might
2015-12-06T13:59:14Z jackdaniel: h0wl3vvd: I think you might get me wrong. All memory is allocated through the GC (not manually), you may however control, when the garbage collection occurs
2015-12-06T13:59:37Z jackdaniel: in example never, if you have an infinite memory :D
2015-12-06T14:00:21Z renopt: h0wl3vvd: not to be that guy, but what do you need manual memory management for?
2015-12-06T14:02:22Z renopt: you might just be better off using a FFI and doing the 'gotta go fast' parts entirely in C
2015-12-06T14:02:46Z renopt: assuming it's for speed ofc
2015-12-06T14:02:53Z davexunit: I'd worry about actually learning Scheme before trying to fiddle with important implementation details like this
2015-12-06T14:03:12Z davexunit: I second the FFI suggestion.
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2015-12-06T17:21:45Z contrapunctus: hiya o/
2015-12-06T17:26:03Z contrapunctus: A function F is READ ing some files, and conditionally running EVAL on expressions in them. If I put the call to F in a LET body, the local variables defined there aren't seen by the eval'd expressions. Is this because of lexical scope, or the implementation?
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2015-12-06T17:32:23Z leppie:  contrapunctus: neither, eval is in another environment
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2015-12-06T17:35:16Z pjb: contrapunctus: yes, it's because of lexical scope.
2015-12-06T17:35:56Z pjb: The expression you read is obviously not written in the textual space WHERE this LET form in function F is written!
2015-12-06T17:36:29Z pjb: lexical scope is very dumb: either it's between the parentheses, or it's not.
2015-12-06T17:36:41Z pjb: _spacially_ between.
2015-12-06T17:39:37Z taylan: contrapunctus: lexical scope is called "lexical" because it's apparent in the text what variables are bound.  that way reasoning about evaluation is easier on the human brain, as well as for optimizing compilers.
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2015-12-06T17:40:13Z taylan: contrapunctus: you can use parameter objects for dynamic binding of values.  or you can construct an environment object in which certain variables are bound, then use 'eval' with that environment object as the second argument.
2015-12-06T17:41:24Z pjb: That said, in r5rs there's no standard way to build such environment objects.  Is there something in r7rs?
2015-12-06T17:42:07Z contrapunctus: leppie , pjb , taylan, thanks for the input
2015-12-06T17:42:15Z contrapunctus: pjb: It's Scheme...one stops looking for standard ways xD
2015-12-06T17:42:32Z leppie: Even in R6RS, with (interaction-environment) if would be hard, unless you evaluate everyting at the top-level of such an environment
2015-12-06T17:42:41Z leppie: s/if/it/
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2015-12-06T17:44:22Z leppie: at least with the implementation I know
2015-12-06T17:44:42Z leppie: implementations
2015-12-06T17:45:32Z leppie: and those would be psyntax-based ones
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2015-12-06T18:17:10Z taylan: pjb: uh, good question.  you can (environment '(my library)) but then it's immutable I think.
2015-12-06T18:18:47Z leppie: taylan: The immutability is valid for R6RS too
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2015-12-06T18:23:06Z pjb: I wonder why scheme commitees resist standardizing nice mutable environments.
2015-12-06T18:23:30Z pjb: Conceptually, that's not that far from monads…
2015-12-06T18:24:34Z leppie: pjb: in R6RS (interaction-environment) is mutable, but very much undefined
2015-12-06T18:24:59Z pjb: is it mandatory in r5rs? because IIRC, in r5rs it's not even mandatory.
2015-12-06T18:26:29Z leppie: most R6RS implementations would make interaction-environment a parameter (at least from what I know)
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2015-12-06T18:30:25Z leppie: In IronScheme, you can call (new-interaction-environment envs ...) where some default (in my case (ironscheme)) is included
2015-12-06T18:32:32Z leppie: And as mentioned previously, you can bing that (mutable) environment to interaction-environment
2015-12-06T18:32:42Z leppie: s/bing/bind/
2015-12-06T18:34:29Z leppie: And while not specified, many R6RS has the same behavior
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2015-12-06T18:56:02Z jcowan: pjb: R7RS-small allows constructing environments from a set of imports, like R6RS.  I have an early-stage proposal for R7RS-large that allows constructing and interrogating arbitrary mutable environments.
2015-12-06T18:58:33Z leppie: jcowan: is that similar to environment-symbols and environment-bindings (latter giving some more info whether it is a proc, syntax or record)?
2015-12-06T18:58:48Z jcowan: sorta.
2015-12-06T18:59:28Z jcowan: http://trac.sacrideo.us/wg/wiki/MutableEnvironmentsCurtisCowan
2015-12-06T18:59:45Z leppie: it is super usefull for my needs, specially when doing work for an editor
2015-12-06T19:04:21Z leppie: jcowan: There really should be some proc to get everything though
2015-12-06T19:04:41Z jcowan: What does that mean?
2015-12-06T19:06:28Z leppie: like all symbols defined (or rather exported) for an environment
2015-12-06T19:07:12Z leppie: guess that could be inferred from environment-for-each
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2015-12-06T19:08:52Z leppie: guess something like environment-symbols would be some implementation requirement to implement this
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2015-12-06T19:11:27Z leppie: the rest I dont really support in IronScheme, except allowing additional environments to be reloaded
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2015-12-06T19:13:23Z ecraven: some extensive standard for introspection and reflection would be very cool, to implement things like the SLIME inspector and debugger :)
2015-12-06T19:13:37Z leppie: some of it might be nice to add to IronScheme though :D
2015-12-06T19:15:03Z leppie: ecraven: hench why I have environment-bindings (it only does 3 categories, but it generally enough)
2015-12-06T19:16:58Z leppie: jcowan: for environment-imports it might be better to say, returns a copy, so list mutation does not play a role
2015-12-06T19:17:01Z ecraven: leppie: well, things like who-calls, who-is-called-by, file-and-point-of-definition, unsyntaxed source code for everything etc. would be great.. haven't seen any Scheme system that does as well as CL there :-/
2015-12-06T19:17:34Z leppie: ecraven: IronScheme does it pretty well :D
2015-12-06T19:18:56Z leppie: in fact assertion-violation will never be tail called (as it does not effect the property of being properly tail recursive (thanks Riastradh ;p))
2015-12-06T19:25:53Z leppie: Well unless you some sicko that does require exceptions for flow control
2015-12-06T19:27:02Z wasamasa: TIL python users are sickos
2015-12-06T19:27:07Z leppie: IronScheme is scheme-like, not scheme ;D
2015-12-06T19:27:59Z leppie: so are many people calling themselves J2EE devs, wasamasa
2015-12-06T19:28:20Z wasamasa: ._.
2015-12-06T19:28:27Z jcowan: leppie: They are Scheme-like?
2015-12-06T19:28:48Z leppie: jcowan: no they write exceptional code :D
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2015-12-06T19:29:43Z leppie: I blame the JVM partially for making exceptions so cheap
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2015-12-06T19:30:17Z leppie: on the CLR, exceptions will kill you if you wat performance
2015-12-06T19:30:27Z leppie: s/wat/want/
2015-12-06T19:31:16Z leppie: example: a method with a try/cra
2015-12-06T19:31:20Z leppie: errr
2015-12-06T19:31:40Z leppie: example: a method with a try/catch inside it, will never be inlined by the JIT
2015-12-06T19:35:58Z leppie: or a method that can throw, which is probably why you see helper throw methods commonly used
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2015-12-06T20:29:33Z cojy: what's wrong with exceptions
2015-12-06T20:30:17Z wasamasa: using them for more than exceptional behaviour
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2015-12-06T23:37:29Z lambda-11235: Is tail recursion modulo cons required in any rnrs spec? It seems to be implemented on both CS and SISC.
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2015-12-06T23:47:40Z Riastradh: lambda-11235: No.
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2015-12-07T20:42:13Z n_blownapart: hi noob question at bottom of this paste : http://pastie.org/10616896 thanks for looking
2015-12-07T20:42:40Z wasamasa: what is crl even
2015-12-07T20:43:40Z n_blownapart: wasamasa: this is from the beginning of little scheme
2015-12-07T20:43:47Z n_blownapart: schemer
2015-12-07T20:44:06Z wasamasa: I think it's helpful to understand cons cells in this context
2015-12-07T20:44:31Z wasamasa: they're pairs of things, car returns one part of the pair and cdr the other one
2015-12-07T20:44:43Z wasamasa: you construct lists by chaining cons cells from right to left
2015-12-07T20:44:57Z wasamasa: so car will be the first item of the list and cdr the remaining list
2015-12-07T20:45:16Z n_blownapart: wasamasa: hold on, sorry I made a typo obviously...
2015-12-07T20:45:27Z wasamasa: which answers your question, cdr gives you a list, hence the extra paren
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2015-12-07T20:47:33Z n_blownapart: ok, so the double nested c is returned in a list, so that explains the third paren. thanks wasamasa !
2015-12-07T20:48:06Z n_blownapart: also the book hasn't gotten to cons yet ... ^
2015-12-07T20:48:51Z wasamasa: well, it has a rather unusual style of showing you how things behave and letting you figure out the details
2015-12-07T20:49:22Z n_blownapart: wasamasa: yeah, just started it. I know a tad of ruby.. could I ask you.. how would this code look if I wanted to run it ?
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2015-12-07T20:53:12Z n_blownapart: since it wouldn't run as is..
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2015-12-08T00:52:20Z Throwaway: can define-syntax be used without syntax-rules? What does syntax-rules return?
2015-12-08T00:58:35Z JX7P: when (define (blah arg arg . therestoftheargs) (do something i don't know)) is used in Scheme, how does that differ from (lambda (arg arg . therest) (do something i don't know)) ?
2015-12-08T00:58:44Z JX7P: my understanding is that they are equivalent except in two ways: first, (define ...) obviously gives the new function a name. second, with (define ...) the scope is - i am guessing it's either only global scope plus within the definition body itself, or the scope it's called in, whereas with lambda it's the original scope
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2015-12-08T01:48:06Z nchambers: lambdas create anonymous functions with a closure
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2015-12-08T02:30:41Z cojy: JX7P: (define blah (lambda (x) ...)) is the _exact_ same as (define (blah x) ...)
2015-12-08T02:31:03Z JX7P: cojy, and this includes the closing on the environment?
2015-12-08T02:31:14Z cojy: yes exactly the same
2015-12-08T02:31:23Z cojy: (define (blah x) ...) turns into the other
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2015-12-08T07:45:41Z taylan: nchambers: <pet_peeve> whether it's "anonymous" depends on whether you bind it to an identifier </pet_peeve>
2015-12-08T07:46:22Z taylan: (define foo (lambda blah))  ;not anonymous
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2015-12-08T07:49:19Z ggole: So if you then (define bar foo) is the value polynymous?
2015-12-08T07:49:35Z ggole isn't of the opinion that thinking of values as having names is helpful
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2015-12-08T07:52:36Z kephra: if (define name (lambda (...) ...))) is annon depends on implementation
2015-12-08T07:53:07Z kephra: e.g. in my Scheme look like, only (define (name args) ...) creates a named lambda
2015-12-08T07:53:16Z kephra: http://o3db.com/demo/dpaste.html#3H2ZG6Y <- click on [eval]
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2015-12-08T08:01:17Z taylan: ggole: agreed :)
2015-12-08T08:03:08Z taylan: in standard Scheme, procedures are just objects, like any other object.  just like (+ 1 2) isn't said to evaluate to an "anonymous integer", we probably don't want to say (lambda x y) evaluates to an "anonymous procedure".  the term comes from languages where the idea of procedures as objects is foreign...
2015-12-08T08:03:37Z taylan: </prescriptivism>
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2015-12-08T19:15:07Z h0wl3vvd: anyone have a "the little schemer" book in pdf ?
2015-12-08T19:15:12Z h0wl3vvd: :)
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2015-12-08T19:28:06Z gnomon pokes h0wl3vvd with a sharp stick
2015-12-08T19:29:47Z h0wl3vvd: ?
2015-12-08T19:30:51Z gnomon: h0wl3vvd, you know better than to make that request, smiley face suffixed or not!
2015-12-08T19:31:58Z h0wl3vvd: gnomon i dont understand you
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2015-12-08T19:47:38Z taylan: h0wl3vvd: I think one is supposed to pay for the book :)
2015-12-08T19:47:50Z taylan: SICP and HtDP are online gratis though
2015-12-08T19:47:57Z h0wl3vvd: hmm nah
2015-12-08T19:48:01Z h0wl3vvd: im already found a free one
2015-12-08T19:48:08Z h0wl3vvd: SICP ? ill check that too
2015-12-08T19:48:50Z h0wl3vvd: sicp and htdp dont about scheme
2015-12-08T19:48:51Z h0wl3vvd: ;p
2015-12-08T19:49:30Z h0wl3vvd: oh it is
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2015-12-08T21:25:39Z h0wl3vvd: what is diffrence between S-expression and atom
2015-12-08T21:27:08Z pjb: s-expression ::= list | atom .  list ::= '(' s-expression* ')' .
2015-12-08T21:28:15Z pjb: Well, atom? is defined as being not a pair? (define (atom? x) (not (pair? x)))
2015-12-08T21:28:25Z pjb: so (atom? '()) -> #t
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2015-12-08T21:28:35Z pjb: but (list? '()) -> #t too.
2015-12-08T21:28:51Z pjb: so the grammar above is ambiguous ;-)
2015-12-08T21:29:06Z h0wl3vvd: damn
2015-12-08T21:29:15Z h0wl3vvd: i dont know syntax of lisp, and these ones ::= too
2015-12-08T21:29:20Z h0wl3vvd: so i dont understand your answer ;p
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2015-12-08T21:29:28Z pjb: This ::= are BNF grammar rules.
2015-12-08T21:29:34Z h0wl3vvd: dont know it
2015-12-08T21:29:41Z pjb: a s-expression is a list or an atom.
2015-12-08T21:29:54Z h0wl3vvd: ok
2015-12-08T21:29:54Z pjb: an atom is anything that is not a non-empty list.
2015-12-08T21:30:02Z pjb: ie. an atom is anything that is not a pair.
2015-12-08T21:30:18Z h0wl3vvd: k
2015-12-08T21:30:21Z pjb: Any lisp object is a s-expression.
2015-12-08T21:30:44Z pjb: Some lisp objects are also forms, ie. expressions that are intended to be evaluated.
2015-12-08T21:30:53Z h0wl3vvd: kk
2015-12-08T21:31:47Z h0wl3vvd: what mean
2015-12-08T21:31:49Z h0wl3vvd: ::= ?
2015-12-08T21:31:49Z pjb: (hello world) is a s-expression, since it's a pair, and a list.  hello-word is a s-expression since it's an atom.  (display '(hello world)) is a s-expression since it's a pair and a list; it's also a form, since it seems to be intended for evaluation.
2015-12-08T21:32:24Z pjb: h0wl3vvd: grammars are a 4-tuple: (start-symbol terminals non-terminals productions)
2015-12-08T21:32:37Z pjb: start-symbols ∈ non-terminals
2015-12-08T21:32:46Z pjb: terminals is a set of terminal symbols (the tokens of the language).
2015-12-08T21:33:06Z pjb: non-terminals is a set of symbols, disjoint from the terminals, which are used to "name" grammar elements.
2015-12-08T21:33:25Z pjb: productions are rewriting rules. In general: sentence1 --> sentence2 .
2015-12-08T21:33:31Z h0wl3vvd: ok
2015-12-08T21:33:33Z h0wl3vvd: nevermind
2015-12-08T21:33:34Z h0wl3vvd: ^^
2015-12-08T21:33:38Z pjb: A sentence is a sequence of terminals ∪ non-terminal.
2015-12-08T21:34:28Z pjb: Now there is the Chomsky's classification of the grammars and languages.  Context free languages/grammar rules (productions) can be put under the form:  non-terminal --> sentence .
2015-12-08T21:34:55Z pjb: In the Backus-Naur form (the inventors of Fortran), we write productions as non-terminal ::= sentence .
2015-12-08T21:35:15Z pjb: In yacc, it's:  non-terminal : sentence ;
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2015-12-08T21:36:01Z pjb: Starting from the start-symbol, you can derivate any word in the language by substituting any non-terminal in the sentence by the right-hand-side of some grammar rule whose left-hand-side is that non-terminal.
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2015-12-08T21:48:45Z h0wl3vvd: where i can learn BNF ?
2015-12-08T21:53:50Z pjb: https://www.google.fr/search?q=bnf&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&gws_rd=cr&ei=XFFnVu8HxfFo7a-d0Aw#newwindow=1&safe=off&q=backus+naur+form+tutorial
2015-12-08T21:53:50Z rudybot: http://teensy.info/o0SyK1KD3y
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2015-12-08T21:54:23Z pjb: h0wl3vvd: in general, in any compiler course in the parser chapter.
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2015-12-08T21:55:59Z h0wl3vvd: pjb
2015-12-08T21:56:11Z h0wl3vvd: can u give me a link to good BNF tutorial
2015-12-08T21:56:12Z h0wl3vvd: ?
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2015-12-08T22:04:03Z pjb: h0wl3vvd: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Backus%E2%80%93Naur_Form
2015-12-08T22:04:47Z pjb: h0wl3vvd: the problem is not the BNF, which is only a notation.  It's to understand all the maths behind it, which you learn in the compiler parser course.
2015-12-08T22:05:24Z pjb: h0wl3vvd: but you can at least use the BNF to write grammar rules (even English grammar rules).
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2015-12-08T22:14:45Z h0wl3vvd: ok
2015-12-08T22:15:09Z h0wl3vvd: compiler parser ?
2015-12-08T22:15:22Z h0wl3vvd: i must write compiler to understand bnr ?
2015-12-08T22:15:26Z h0wl3vvd: bnf
2015-12-08T22:20:06Z h0wl3vvd: i cant learn from that wiki, maybe u have some pdf book or any online course ?
2015-12-08T22:23:28Z Riastradh: h0wl3vvd: All it means is there are some basic individual elements, like `(' or `)' or `3' or `7' or `83' or `quagga' or `define', and BNF tells you how you can combine those to assemble bigger strings out of them.
2015-12-08T22:25:11Z Riastradh: Usually `atom' means a number or a symbol -- something you can't break into smaller parts.  (The precise definition varies from context to context.)  Usually `S-expression' means either a list or an atom (`s-expression ::= list | atom'), and a list is a parenthesized sequence of S-expressions (`list ::= `(' s-expression* `)' ').
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2015-12-08T22:26:04Z h0wl3vvd: i see
2015-12-08T22:26:05Z Riastradh: So, for example, in this nomenclature, 37 is an atom, and (37 87 (foo)) is a list of an atom (`37'), another atom (`87'), and a list of one atom (`foo').
2015-12-08T22:26:06Z h0wl3vvd: thanks
2015-12-08T22:26:29Z h0wl3vvd: so foo ::= bar | bazz  mean foo is bar or bazz but foo ::= bar means that foo is bar
2015-12-08T22:28:50Z Riastradh: Yes.  A little more specifically, it tells you how to build foos out of bars and bazzes: if you have a bar, you can make a foo out of it; if you have a bazz, you can make a foo out of it; if you have a sequence of S-expressions, you can make a list out of them by putting a `(' before them and a `)' after them.
2015-12-08T22:32:19Z h0wl3vvd: kk thanks
2015-12-08T22:34:53Z jcowan: there's another context, namely that "atom" refers to a kind of object, whereas "S-expression" refers to a kind of outward representation.
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2015-12-08T22:35:06Z jcowan: (atom? x) returns true of, say, 3,2
2015-12-08T22:35:08Z jcowan: 32
2015-12-08T22:35:48Z jcowan: whereas "(s-expression? x) would return true of the string "(1 2 3)" (a representation) rather than the list (1 2 3) (an object)
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2015-12-09T02:48:41Z GillesM: hello I am playing with tiny scheme for gimp and I don't understand how to declare a function with string parameter
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2015-12-09T14:28:04Z Necrosporus: What's difference between guile and mit scheme?
2015-12-09T14:28:30Z Necrosporus: What's better as general purpose scripting language (not embedded) interpreter? Are they compatible?
2015-12-09T14:33:11Z taylan: Necrosporus: they both extend standard Scheme in different ways (as every Scheme implementation does)
2015-12-09T14:33:27Z taylan: Necrosporus: I think Guile has more traction and a more active community nowadays
2015-12-09T14:34:04Z taylan: "better" is always very subjective of course...
2015-12-09T14:34:07Z Necrosporus: But what was the reason to make two different implementations both GNU?
2015-12-09T14:34:55Z taylan: the GNU project takes many projects under its umbrella, whose authors don't necessarily know each other...
2015-12-09T14:34:58Z ecraven: MIT/GNU Scheme has a much better compiler in theory :)
2015-12-09T14:35:45Z taylan: well, Guile's compiler and VM is changing and changing
2015-12-09T14:36:01Z taylan: and there's prospect for native compilation
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2015-12-09T14:36:36Z ecraven: taylan: MIT/GNU Scheme has had native compilation on multiple platforms for a long time
2015-12-09T14:36:45Z ecraven: but as you said, guile is much more active now
2015-12-09T14:37:23Z Necrosporus: Which implementation is going to work better with standard-compliant code?
2015-12-09T14:37:25Z taylan: oh, didn't know about that.  I don't ever see it being touted as a high-performance Scheme implementation... why is that?
2015-12-09T14:38:08Z taylan: Necrosporus: all "serious" implementations will work fine with R5RS.  I don't know if MIT/GNU Scheme has R6RS support; Guile does but people generally don't use the R6RS support in it much.
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2015-12-09T14:38:44Z ecraven: taylan: because some things are a mess about it :) but it can produce very fast code
2015-12-09T14:38:58Z ecraven: no R6RS in MIT/GNU Scheme.. neither R7RS (yet)
2015-12-09T14:39:14Z taylan: the whole state of Scheme standardization is pretty weird right now.  on the interim the thing to do is pick an implementation and go with it, and even in the long term I'm not sure if Scheme standardization will reach a point where you can just sit down and write an arbitrary application in standard Scheme without facing big hurdles.
2015-12-09T14:42:39Z gnomon: Scheme-Tiny + Scheme-Large + Standard Libraries + SRFIs + OS-specific specs
2015-12-09T14:42:40Z Necrosporus: OK, the real question is, does it worth to go through SICP and is guile sufficient?
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2015-12-09T14:42:53Z Necrosporus: I guess I won't need a compiler
2015-12-09T14:43:07Z Necrosporus: interpreter is better since performance is not an issue
2015-12-09T14:43:52Z taylan: Guile should be sufficient to go through SICP.  most R5RS implementations should be fine I think.
2015-12-09T14:43:59Z taylan: Racket is also a good choice for learning BTW
2015-12-09T14:44:49Z Necrosporus: I didn't like it when I tried its repl
2015-12-09T14:44:58Z Necrosporus: it's gui one and behaves strange
2015-12-09T14:45:09Z Necrosporus: console repl in konsole is better
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2015-12-09T14:47:45Z hydraz: lol konsole
2015-12-09T14:48:53Z taylan: hydraz: what's wrong with it?
2015-12-09T14:49:25Z hydraz waits for dependencies to finish resolving
2015-12-09T14:49:58Z taylan: hydraz: I would assume that a Konsole user already has all of KDE installed...
2015-12-09T14:50:27Z hydraz: sudo pacman -S konsole - Packages (44) - Total Installed Size: 100.42 MiB
2015-12-09T14:50:35Z taylan: Necrosporus: BTW there are #guile, #racket, and #chicken IRC channels, should you have questions specific to those implementations.  (don't know if there's more.)
2015-12-09T14:52:00Z Necrosporus: Well, I do not know any other good enough terminal emulator
2015-12-09T14:52:11Z Necrosporus: some advertize rxvt though
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2015-12-09T14:52:33Z Necrosporus: vte based has a security problem
2015-12-09T14:52:54Z hydraz: rxvt-unicode
2015-12-09T14:53:18Z Necrosporus: but it does not support multitab, does it?
2015-12-09T14:53:22Z taylan: I just use xterm, when M-x term in Emacs is insufficient ;)
2015-12-09T14:54:23Z taylan: but no tabs in xterm AFAIK
2015-12-09T14:54:39Z taylan: Guile has very nice integration with Emacs via the Geiser extension by the way
2015-12-09T14:54:42Z LeoNerd: Most modern computers these days are able to run multiple programs concurrently
2015-12-09T14:54:43Z edw: taylan: tmux?
2015-12-09T14:54:58Z taylan: indeed, one can just use a multiplexer
2015-12-09T14:55:00Z LeoNerd: So you don't need to have one program support multiple terminal instances, when you could just run several programs independently
2015-12-09T14:55:15Z hydraz: Necrosporus: http://screencloud.net/v/xRGT that's enough tabs for you?
2015-12-09T14:55:23Z LeoNerd: Better HA performance that way too; stronger fault isolation
2015-12-09T14:55:46Z LeoNerd: Makes better use of multicore processors as well, so likely better throughput
2015-12-09T14:55:46Z hydraz notes the lack of transparency that comes from using urxvt-tabbed and shrugs
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2015-12-09T14:55:55Z taylan: LeoNerd: I think the main concern here is user convenience, not performance
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2015-12-09T14:56:37Z hydraz: I find switching windows more convenient than switching tabs
2015-12-09T14:56:39Z taylan: if terminal speed is a bottleneck, just redirect the output to a file.  can make a noticable difference in some very-high-output processes like while compiling something.
2015-12-09T14:57:26Z LeoNerd: If terminal output is a bottleneck, get a better terminal that doesn't have to display every single byte rasterised to the monitor while it's working
2015-12-09T14:57:26Z LeoNerd: Any decent modern terminal can do scroll-skipping
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2015-12-09T14:58:15Z wasamasa: let's fix M-x term by redirecting output to a file, then inserting it
2015-12-09T14:58:36Z wasamasa: :V
2015-12-09T14:58:58Z hydraz: Emacs.
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2015-12-09T15:00:21Z taylan: :D
2015-12-09T15:01:15Z wasamasa: I still wonder how much better a module-based implementation would be
2015-12-09T15:01:48Z hydraz likes his vim setup
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2015-12-09T15:02:36Z wasamasa: I should find out how exactly nvim works for this
2015-12-09T15:03:01Z taylan: LeoNerd: redirecting to a file is just the easy way around the problem.  can't be arsed to move outside my Emacs comfort zone. :P
2015-12-09T15:03:57Z hydraz tries out emacs just for lols
2015-12-09T15:04:49Z hydraz: this syntax highlighting hurts
2015-12-09T15:04:59Z taylan: wasamasa: WDYM module based implementation?
2015-12-09T15:05:31Z wasamasa: taylan: well, an emacs module wrapping some terminal emulation library and some elisp to make use of it
2015-12-09T15:05:42Z taylan: hmm, ok
2015-12-09T15:05:52Z taylan: no idea
2015-12-09T15:06:40Z LeoNerd: libvterm ;)
2015-12-09T15:06:51Z LeoNerd: well, that's the terminal library that neovim uses. But then I'm biased because I wrote it ;)
2015-12-09T15:07:01Z wasamasa: I hoped for taylan to tell
2015-12-09T15:07:51Z taylan: ?
2015-12-09T15:12:17Z hydraz: Emacs is like a tiling window manager :D:
2015-12-09T15:13:26Z taylan: yeah, it does do tiling "window" management within its "frame"
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2015-12-09T15:14:12Z hydraz: taylan: it can do non-" window management, too! https://github.com/ch11ng/exwm
2015-12-09T15:14:23Z taylan: those windows should really be called panes.  quite a pain when trying to communicate.
2015-12-09T15:14:46Z taylan: haha, didn't know of that project
2015-12-09T15:15:33Z hydraz: You know what would be lovely (for me, at least)? Emacs, but instead of elisp, lua.
2015-12-09T15:15:35Z taylan: I wonder how it grabs keypresses when you focus away from the Emacs window?..
2015-12-09T15:16:29Z wasamasa: hydraz: then that emacs would have a similiarly crappy language
2015-12-09T15:16:31Z taylan: maybe One Day via GuileEmacs :P
2015-12-09T15:16:39Z wasamasa: hydraz: same for js
2015-12-09T15:16:54Z hydraz: bad wasamasa, lua is awesome
2015-12-09T15:17:07Z taylan: http://www.emacswiki.org/emacs/GuileEmacs
2015-12-09T15:17:21Z wasamasa: it wouldn't even have any benefit
2015-12-09T15:17:42Z davexunit: +1 for guile-emacs
2015-12-09T15:17:44Z taylan: wasamasa: it would have the benefit of using some people's favorite language :)
2015-12-09T15:17:59Z davexunit: elisp ain't going away
2015-12-09T15:18:00Z wasamasa: taylan: great, and then?
2015-12-09T15:18:09Z taylan: and then those people would be happy and use it!
2015-12-09T15:19:02Z davexunit: the big advantage of guile is using a more featureful, capable VM and optimizing compiler.
2015-12-09T15:19:06Z wasamasa: I guess I'm really peeved by the fact it wouldn't make anything better
2015-12-09T15:19:26Z davexunit: which would make emacs faster and open the door for new features.
2015-12-09T15:19:55Z taylan: wasamasa: not for people who aren't Lua fans or like Elisp just as much, for sure
2015-12-09T15:20:38Z taylan: well, theoretically Lua people would write extensions that all Emacs people could benefit from, but I prefer not to put much weight on the multi-language platform idea
2015-12-09T15:21:38Z wasamasa: you see, this is precisely what I mean
2015-12-09T15:21:54Z wasamasa: it wouldn't fix any of the way too many bugs on the tracker
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2015-12-09T15:43:14Z saul: Necrosporus, http://wingolog.org/archives/2013/01/07/an-opinionated-guide-to-scheme-implementations
2015-12-09T15:43:14Z rudybot: http://teensy.info/bFcUKK1p1D
2015-12-09T15:43:43Z saul: ^^ a pretty good conspectus on various Scheme implementations.
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2015-12-09T15:53:22Z Necrosporus: thx
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2015-12-09T16:29:26Z warweasle: Hi, I'm needing something like javascript but I prefer lisp. Is there a way to build guile so it's "safe". Exampe: No I/O, memory access, limited memory, etc.
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2015-12-09T16:51:26Z turbopape: hi Guys, wanna run a modern Scheme on your browser? support my development here:
2015-12-09T16:51:30Z turbopape: https://salt.bountysource.com/teams/parenodejs
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2015-12-09T16:57:43Z wasamasa: where's the code?
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2015-12-10T01:55:21Z JX7P: in the case of using the (define (f x) (operations) (operations)...) syntax in scheme. if x is modified by operation 1, will operation 2 see the modified x or the original?
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2015-12-10T01:56:00Z jcowan: Yes, in general.
2015-12-10T01:56:35Z JX7P: yes to the first, or yes to ths second?
2015-12-10T01:56:50Z jcowan: Note that there's a difference between changing what x is bound to, which can only be done by set!, and mutating the object bound.
2015-12-10T01:57:35Z jcowan: Oh.  It will see the modified x.
2015-12-10T01:58:46Z JX7P: and, to my understanding, this will happen in both cases you brought up, since the resultant procedure of that define is just each operation in sequence
2015-12-10T01:59:18Z pjb: JX7P: if you ask   a ∨ ¬a ?  the answer is always true.
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2015-12-10T02:16:34Z jcowan: pjb: If you don't mind being Gricean-hostile, yes.
2015-12-10T02:16:49Z jcowan: <https://www.sas.upenn.edu/~haroldfs/dravling/grice.html>
2015-12-10T02:19:29Z jcowan: which was not my itention, I simply misread the question
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2015-12-10T08:03:44Z taylan: pjb: what if a is a paradox? :P
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2015-12-10T09:42:33Z kephra wonders if any programming language is able to cover non dual (e.g. buddist, zen or tibetan) logic
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2015-12-10T09:46:17Z kephra: so a thing can be true, or false, or both true and false same time, or neither true or false
2015-12-10T09:47:02Z kephra: the for corners of catuskoti
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2015-12-10T09:47:24Z ecraven: kephra: some have true, false or undetermined/unknown
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2015-12-10T09:49:31Z kephra: ecraven, Mulamadhyamakakarika added a 5th corner "unknown"
2015-12-10T09:50:13Z ecraven: kephra: unfortunately I know next to nothing about non-binary logic :-/
2015-12-10T09:50:21Z kephra: unknown is the fundamental of the middle way
2015-12-10T09:54:12Z kephra: ttl logic: true, false unknown is common, e.g. in databases where a boolean might be null, or in so called 74xxx TTL chips, that formed the classic computers like PDP or H316
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2015-12-10T09:57:55Z taylan: quantum computers? :P
2015-12-10T09:58:22Z taylan: I don't like the mystification of such things but the simplistic explanation of quantum computers seems to be that their "bits" can be both 0 and 1 at once or something
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2015-12-10T13:11:03Z pjb: kephra: in lisp, you can cover any logic you want.
2015-12-10T13:11:39Z pjb: kephra: for example, ternary logic: http://paste.lisp.org/display/145689
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2015-12-10T14:40:58Z CustosL1men: hi
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2015-12-10T14:41:45Z CustosL1men: so it looks to me like there is some bug in guile-2.0.11 related to condition variables
2015-12-10T14:41:54Z CustosL1men: where mutex owner gets corrupted as a result
2015-12-10T14:42:26Z CustosL1men: not sure if I can ask here for help in that regard though
2015-12-10T14:47:10Z taylan: CustosL1men: #guile is the place to ask .. well you seem to have found it
2015-12-10T14:48:49Z CustosL1men: taylan, yeah but no response
2015-12-10T14:48:53Z CustosL1men: so just fishing in case
2015-12-10T14:51:33Z taylan: CustosL1men: if you think you found a bug, feel free to report it by mailing bug-guile@gnu.org.  other than that, you could also mail to the guile-user@gnu.org or guile-devel@gnu.org MLs to discuss the issue.  (depending on whether it's more a user question or a question that's likely to be relevant to the development of guile itself...)
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2015-12-10T14:54:11Z CustosL1men: taylan, I will - but just trying to see if I can get some agreement before sending to mailing list
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2015-12-10T14:54:48Z CustosL1men: if there is something obvious that I'm missing with proposed fix then would rather know now that later ;)
2015-12-10T14:54:55Z CustosL1men: but will send to mailing list
2015-12-10T14:55:04Z taylan: yeah that's understandable.
2015-12-10T14:55:11Z taylan: thanks for the report in advance :)
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2015-12-10T14:57:15Z h0wl3vvd: hello
2015-12-10T14:57:24Z h0wl3vvd: here any matrix'es in scheme ?
2015-12-10T14:57:54Z oleo: scheme has a math library.....
2015-12-10T14:58:00Z oleo: at least the mit-scheme one....
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2015-12-10T14:59:53Z h0wl3vvd: so
2015-12-10T15:00:00Z h0wl3vvd: it has matrixes include ?
2015-12-10T15:00:51Z taylan: h0wl3vvd: standard (RnRS) Scheme doesn't have matrices, only vectors.  there should be an SRFI for matrices (called "arrays" in Scheme usually).  I know Guile has an array library too...
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2015-12-10T15:23:39Z h0wl3vvd: hello
2015-12-10T15:23:44Z h0wl3vvd: im read:
2015-12-10T15:23:50Z h0wl3vvd: "Unlike Common Lisp, Scheme existed at the time Stallman was rewriting Gosling Emacs into GNU Emacs, but he chose not to use it because of its comparatively poor performance on workstations, and he wanted to develop a dialect which he thought would be more easily optimized."
2015-12-10T15:23:57Z h0wl3vvd: what is that disadvantage of scheme ?
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2015-12-10T15:25:09Z davexunit: that is talking about scheme as it was 30 years ago on 30 year old hardware.
2015-12-10T15:25:29Z davexunit: rest assured that scheme has grown in those 3 decades
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2015-12-10T15:28:59Z taylan: h0wl3vvd: people didn't know/accept-yet back then that lexical scope could be compiled as efficiently, and actually more efficiently, than dynamic scope
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2015-12-10T15:29:41Z taylan: h0wl3vvd: Stallman since wishes for Emacs to embrace Scheme and encourages the GuileEmacs effort http://www.emacswiki.org/emacs/GuileEmacs
2015-12-10T15:32:06Z h0wl3vvd: emacs will switch from elisp to scheme
2015-12-10T15:32:06Z h0wl3vvd: ?
2015-12-10T15:34:00Z taylan: h0wl3vvd: it's implausible that all existing elisp would be rewritten in scheme any time soon, if ever.  so the plan is explained in that link above (elisp and scheme co-existing).
2015-12-10T15:34:57Z taylan: the integration would (hopefully) first of all make elisp a better language, so many people might not even see a reason to ever switch, but RMS said he wants Emacs to be scriptable in Scheme
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2015-12-10T15:36:19Z h0wl3vvd: oh
2015-12-10T15:36:35Z h0wl3vvd: so i make good choice to start learn lisp from scheme
2015-12-10T15:36:38Z h0wl3vvd: then :)
2015-12-10T15:36:49Z h0wl3vvd: cuz will be useful in emacs
2015-12-10T15:37:12Z taylan: well, in the future, hopefully
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2015-12-10T15:37:20Z h0wl3vvd: okay
2015-12-10T15:37:23Z taylan: that project still has a way to go
2015-12-10T15:37:33Z h0wl3vvd: btw elisp is more simillar to common or scheme ?
2015-12-10T15:37:56Z taylan: more similar to common lisp, but still has important differences
2015-12-10T15:38:03Z h0wl3vvd: i see
2015-12-10T15:38:24Z h0wl3vvd: but very big diffrence ?
2015-12-10T15:38:47Z h0wl3vvd: cuz i want to learn elisp + scheme/common, so maybe i should pick common if its more similar to lisp
2015-12-10T15:39:04Z taylan: so-so.  knowing one definitely helps learning the other.  learning any lisp helps a lot with learning any other lisp.
2015-12-10T15:39:24Z h0wl3vvd: i see
2015-12-10T15:39:31Z h0wl3vvd: maybe for best i should try scheme and common
2015-12-10T15:39:34Z h0wl3vvd: and pick one i prefer
2015-12-10T15:39:36Z h0wl3vvd: okay thanks
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2015-12-10T16:56:48Z h0wl3vvd: scheme isnt translated to assembly in any place ? intepreter interpreted byte code or source code immediately to binary instructions ?
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2015-12-10T16:57:11Z davexunit: all depends on the implementations
2015-12-10T16:57:27Z davexunit: some have native compilers, some use bytecode compilers and a VM, some use an interpreter.
2015-12-10T16:58:03Z h0wl3vvd: yeah but i dont asking what they using but how they using
2015-12-10T16:58:19Z davexunit: I don't understand your question.
2015-12-10T16:58:24Z davexunit: who is "they"?
2015-12-10T16:59:17Z h0wl3vvd: compilers can compile scheme code to assembly code and then assembler that to machine code or compilers can compile scheme directly to machine code, interpreter can interpret scheme firstly to assembly code and then interpreter assembly code to binary instructions or interpreter can interpret scheme immediately to binary instructions
2015-12-10T16:59:20Z taylan: h0wl3vvd: did you mean to ask whether there is any Scheme implementation that translates Scheme code to assembly?
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2015-12-10T17:00:01Z h0wl3vvd: yes
2015-12-10T17:00:31Z taylan: by the way you cannot "interpret to assembly" or "interpret assembly to native code".  that contradicts the meaning of "interpret" which means no translation happens.
2015-12-10T17:01:03Z taylan: h0wl3vvd: I think there were some implementations that do that, but I don't remember them right now.  Chicken translates to C though, and C can be translated to assembly
2015-12-10T17:01:07Z h0wl3vvd: i see
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2015-12-10T17:01:26Z h0wl3vvd: i see
2015-12-10T17:01:41Z davexunit: Guile will have a native compiler at some point, and the plan there is to generate native ELF binaries directly, no intermediary language.
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2015-12-10T17:01:42Z h0wl3vvd: but mostly often scheme is compiled or interpreted directly to binary
2015-12-10T17:01:43Z h0wl3vvd: ?
2015-12-10T17:01:54Z taylan: you can't "interpret to binary" :)
2015-12-10T17:01:57Z h0wl3vvd: hm
2015-12-10T17:01:58Z davexunit: "interpreted directly to binary" doesn't make sense
2015-12-10T17:02:02Z h0wl3vvd: so interpret to what ?
2015-12-10T17:02:12Z taylan: just interpret the source in-place
2015-12-10T17:02:24Z h0wl3vvd: interpret to what
2015-12-10T17:02:36Z taylan: to actions in the computer...
2015-12-10T17:02:48Z h0wl3vvd: actions in computer are doing by binary
2015-12-10T17:03:17Z davexunit: but it's *not* translating a bit of Scheme code to native code
2015-12-10T17:03:31Z taylan: h0wl3vvd: think of it like the following...
2015-12-10T17:04:28Z taylan: hmm, I was going to make an analogy but I'm stuck
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2015-12-10T17:05:31Z h0wl3vvd: :D
2015-12-10T17:06:27Z davexunit: an interpreter just reads source code as text, and calls the relevant subroutines that correspond to what the user asked to be evaluated.
2015-12-10T17:06:56Z h0wl3vvd: where these subroutines are defined
2015-12-10T17:06:57Z h0wl3vvd: ?
2015-12-10T17:07:12Z davexunit: in the interpreter program
2015-12-10T17:07:17Z h0wl3vvd: i see
2015-12-10T17:07:20Z h0wl3vvd: kk
2015-12-10T17:07:28Z h0wl3vvd: byte code that same
2015-12-10T17:07:38Z h0wl3vvd: is interpreted by that same way ?
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2015-12-10T17:12:58Z davexunit: yes, that's a lower-level representation
2015-12-10T17:13:00Z davexunit: and thus faster
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2015-12-10T17:13:23Z h0wl3vvd: kk thanks
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2015-12-10T17:14:31Z taylan: ok, I got it!
2015-12-10T17:14:45Z taylan: h0wl3vvd: say I have a machine that I want to operate, but it's very complicated.  (this is the CPU, the instructions are complicated)  I have an engineer who can do that; I can speak to them in English and they figure out how to make the machine do that by pressing some buttons as I speak.  (this engineer is an "interpreter")
2015-12-10T17:15:06Z taylan: but English is an inefficient language to communicate what to do with the machine so it all takes long.  a more efficient way is to first figure out the shortest sequence of buttons to push to get the whole job done, like "X B Q A C Z".
2015-12-10T17:15:19Z taylan: for this reason I have another engineer who can understand my English and translate the whole task I describe into a short sequence of button presses, so later someone operating the machine can just press those to execute the task.  this second engineer is a cmopiler.
2015-12-10T17:15:26Z taylan: makes sense? :P
2015-12-10T17:15:41Z taylan: I will write this down, it should be useful in the future
2015-12-10T17:16:42Z taylan: compiler* BTW
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2015-12-10T17:19:24Z h0wl3vvd: make no-sense
2015-12-10T17:19:28Z h0wl3vvd: but thanks for try
2015-12-10T17:19:30Z h0wl3vvd: :)
2015-12-10T17:21:03Z h0wl3vvd: oh okay
2015-12-10T17:21:07Z h0wl3vvd: make sense :) kk
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2015-12-10T17:41:31Z jcowan: At one point, ghc (the Glorious Haskell Compiler) had a mode where it generated C, then used gcc to generate assembly, then removed the procedure headers and footers with a Perl script known as the Evil Mangler, and assembled the result with (g)as.
2015-12-10T17:41:46Z jcowan: It was a clever way to do tail recursion
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2015-12-10T18:02:58Z h0wl3vvd: (cons (subst* new old (carl l)))
2015-12-10T18:02:58Z h0wl3vvd: (subst* new old (cdr l))
2015-12-10T18:03:07Z h0wl3vvd: how this switch to next element
2015-12-10T18:03:25Z h0wl3vvd: i mean this code work when program spott that (carl l) != atom
2015-12-10T18:03:38Z h0wl3vvd: so how this skip list ?
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2015-12-10T18:14:02Z h0wl3vvd: ahh right, nvm,getit
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2015-12-10T19:10:36Z pinkiesOut: When comparing integers and floats, I understand that (equal? 1 1.0) ==> #f, but (= 1 1.0) ==> #t, as = coerces types. Why then does (= 1 (+ 0.5 0.2 0.2 0.1)) ==> #f ?
2015-12-10T19:12:15Z leppie: floating point error
2015-12-10T19:13:03Z pinkiesOut: yes, that's the obvious answer. I guess what I'm actually asking is how can one reliably check that 1.0 and (+ 0.5 0.2 0.2 0.1) are equivalent?
2015-12-10T19:13:45Z leppie: rudybot: (+ 0.5 0.2 0.2 0.1)
2015-12-10T19:13:45Z rudybot: leppie: your sandbox is ready
2015-12-10T19:13:46Z rudybot: leppie: ; Value: 0.9999999999999999
2015-12-10T19:14:41Z leppie: I am sure any language would do that using IEEE double precision floating point
2015-12-10T19:15:36Z pinkiesOut: Yeah, although this value is often (at least in my repl) printed as 1.0 for "my sake". I believe python (and probably others) offers a comarison for the pretty-printed 1.0. Or is the rule here just avoid comparing floats?
2015-12-10T19:15:59Z pinkiesOut: R has the same result
2015-12-10T19:16:34Z leppie: if it is not printed as rudybot said, it is printing it wrong
2015-12-10T19:17:21Z leppie: or they language is using some higher precision or not using floating point at all
2015-12-10T19:17:40Z leppie: R could well be using fixed point
2015-12-10T19:19:05Z pinkiesOut: for what it's worth, I'm using Chicken scheme. It prints 1.0, evaluates the equality to #f. I realize that comparing floats for equality is just a bad idea (or at least usually well outside the needs of your task's precision). Anyway, it helped to just chat it out. Thanks :)
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2015-12-10T19:20:17Z leppie: chicken should probably fix their floating point printing ;p
2015-12-10T19:20:26Z pinkiesOut: Racket prints 0.99999999999999
2015-12-10T19:20:30Z pinkiesOut: lol
2015-12-10T19:21:39Z leppie: pinkiesOut: rudybot is Racket-driven
2015-12-10T19:22:08Z leppie: rudybot: 0e401
2015-12-10T19:22:08Z rudybot: leppie: ; Value: +inf.0
2015-12-10T19:22:19Z leppie: still not updated though ;p
2015-12-10T19:24:13Z pinkiesOut: ah good know!
2015-12-10T19:24:21Z pinkiesOut: good to know (full of typos today)
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2015-12-10T20:35:08Z jcowan: Chicken uses the native C float printer; this is one of the more or less permanent bugs.
2015-12-10T20:35:26Z jcowan: (modulo +inf.0, -inf.0, -0.0, +nan.0, which are handled separately)
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2015-12-11T20:26:52Z n_blownapart: hi - I'm beginning to learn scheme. why do some (primative) functions not require a single quote to denote an argument?
2015-12-11T20:27:06Z n_blownapart: and others do ^
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2015-12-11T20:43:00Z wasamasa: quotes do not denote arguments
2015-12-11T20:43:10Z wasamasa: they tell the reader to stop evaluation
2015-12-11T20:43:36Z wasamasa: there are some exceptions where a quote is not needed to stop evaluation of a form
2015-12-11T20:48:06Z lambda-11235: h_blownapart: What primitive functions do you quote the arguments for?
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2015-12-11T21:17:32Z jcowan: n_blownapart: All functions require quotes when their arguments are literal symbols or lists.  Numbers, strings, characters do not need to be quoted; vectors depend on the implementation.  However, syntax forms look like function calls but are not, and each has its own idiosyncratic syntax.
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2015-12-12T12:16:21Z f-a: http://paste.debian.net/343516/ <-- what is wrong with this program?
2015-12-12T12:16:32Z f-a: I get a *** ERROR IN filter, "euler.scm"@6.10 -- Operator is not a PROCEDURE
2015-12-12T12:22:30Z ggole: Have a close look at the expression (or (= 3) (= 5))
2015-12-12T12:22:58Z f-a: ... silly me
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2015-12-13T04:23:32Z f-a: I see that if I use function x in my .scm file, such function definition has to come before the place where I use it
2015-12-13T04:23:45Z f-a: is this correct? do schemers forward declare in any way?
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2015-12-13T04:30:30Z cojy: f-a: that is no correct
2015-12-13T04:31:52Z f-a: cojy: http://hastebin.com/garipogewa.lisp I get an error in loading this
2015-12-13T04:31:53Z cojy: trying to use a regular value before it is defined is an error though
2015-12-13T04:31:59Z f-a: > (load "euler.scm")
2015-12-13T04:32:00Z f-a: *** ERROR IN "euler.scm"@7.4 -- Unbound variable: sum
2015-12-13T04:32:12Z f-a: (using Gambit v4.2.8)
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2015-12-13T04:33:35Z cojy: okay yea that's one of the cases
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2015-12-13T04:34:02Z jcowan: hey ho
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2015-12-13T04:34:28Z cojy: f-a: and there is no way to get around it like you would in some other languages
2015-12-13T04:35:41Z cojy: f-a: but if it's not an immediate value you can use them before where they are defined
2015-12-13T04:36:28Z cojy: like this http://hastebin.com/elizefedij.lisp
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2015-12-13T04:41:24Z f-a: thanks cojy
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2015-12-13T05:00:44Z kraehe: f-a, http://o3db.com/demo/dpaste.html#259Y8Y2 <- try eval on this one
2015-12-13T05:02:40Z kraehe: *ah* cojy's hastebin is same ;-)
2015-12-13T05:03:13Z f-a: it works, while it doesn't on my repl
2015-12-13T05:03:51Z kraehe: the only difference is that we replaced define exercise-1 with define (exercise-1)
2015-12-13T05:04:16Z kraehe: and placed an (exercise-1) at the end to run it
2015-12-13T05:04:26Z kraehe: sum must be defined before you run sum ;-)
2015-12-13T05:04:42Z f-a: oh
2015-12-13T05:05:43Z f-a: what's the difference between define ex1 and define (ex1)? latter is treated as a 0 param lambda?
2015-12-13T05:06:09Z kraehe: the later is syntactic cancer of (define ex1 (lambda () (sum ...
2015-12-13T05:06:21Z f-a: thanks
2015-12-13T05:10:21Z kraehe: there is one subtly difference between those two, when it comes to debugging
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2015-12-13T05:10:54Z kraehe: (define (foo args) ...) creates a named lambda foo, that is bound to foo
2015-12-13T05:11:22Z kraehe: (define foo (lambda (args) ...)) creates an annomymous lambda, that is bound to foo
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2015-12-13T13:32:47Z TwoNotes: How do I make MIT Scheme recognize the SLIB library I just installed?
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2015-12-13T13:37:01Z turbopape: Hi, please consider voting for our little scheme implementation in the Clojure Cup ! visit clojurecup.com/voting !
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2015-12-13T13:38:26Z turbopape: besides, you can see a polished version here: https://github.com/turbopape/scheje
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2015-12-13T19:13:41Z Tbone139: I'm using (system) within racket so that I can perform tests on a series of "wget -O-" outputs, I think I'm addicted to parenthesis
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2015-12-13T21:19:04Z zacts: yo schemers
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2015-12-13T21:23:39Z ecraven: hey zacts!
2015-12-13T21:24:44Z zacts: lo
2015-12-13T21:24:45Z zacts: =)
2015-12-13T21:24:56Z zacts: I want to make a scheme interface into supercollider
2015-12-13T21:24:58Z zacts: a la
2015-12-13T21:25:05Z zacts: http://overtone.github.io
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2015-12-13T21:26:45Z wasamasa: I want cake
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