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2015-11-01T00:37:41Z synergistics: If a list is passed to a macro, are the elements of the list evaluated anyway?
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2015-11-01T00:46:19Z pjb: synergistics: macros receive their arguments unevaluated.
2015-11-01T00:46:50Z pjb: synergistics: how do you pass that list to the macro?
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2015-11-01T01:02:05Z synergistics: It would be passed as an argument in the form (list (+ 2 3) (+ 4 5)) for example
2015-11-01T01:05:35Z pjb: So you're passing a list of 3 elements: the symbol list, the list (+ 2 3) and the list (+ 4 5).
2015-11-01T01:12:03Z pjb: Notice that you could destructure it in a syntax-rule.
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2015-11-01T11:08:16Z kephra: http://o3db.com/demo/dpaste.html#1KPRP4N <- some evil thoughts about a Scheme without syntax ;-)
2015-11-01T11:10:39Z kephra: http://o3db.com/demo/dpaste.html#1GJNWN4 <- try this in any real Scheme ;-)
2015-11-01T11:10:48Z kephra: s/try/don't try/
2015-11-01T11:12:08Z turtleman_: what do you mean?
2015-11-01T11:12:16Z turtleman_: i put it in kawa, and of course there was an error
2015-11-01T11:12:32Z turtleman_: you tried to apply a symbol
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2015-11-01T11:13:34Z turtleman_: are you saying "what if quote, quasiquote and unquote were procedures?"
2015-11-01T11:16:07Z pjb: You can write a function that implements quasiquote on a sexp containing unquote and unquote-splice forms.
2015-11-01T11:17:26Z pjb: However, the access to the lexical environment is not specified in r5rs (is it in later revisions?), so your procedure will have a hard time finding the variables that should be used in the expressions that are unquoted or spliced.
2015-11-01T11:18:22Z pjb: There's no way to write a function quasiquote such as: (let ((x 42)) (quasiquote (quote (1 2 (unquote x) 3)))) --> (1 2 42 3)
2015-11-01T11:19:09Z pjb: If quasiquote was a macro, something could be done, since the macro could expand to an expressions refering x, which in the scope of that let would give the right value.
2015-11-01T11:21:43Z pjb: If there was a function (lexical-environment) that would catch the lexical environment, then you could write a quasiquote function such as: (let ((x 42)) (quasiquote (lexical-environment) (quote (1 2 (unquote x) 3)))) --> (1 2 42 3).
2015-11-01T11:23:44Z pjb: But not all the quasiquoted expressions are quote forms. So something like: (let ((x 2)) `(+ 1 ,x)) with your function you'd have to write: (let ((x 2)) (quasiquote (+ 1 (unquote x)))) and then (+ 1 (unquote x)) would be evaluated first, signaling an error on (unquote x) (worse situations with unquote-splice).
2015-11-01T11:24:05Z pjb: So actually if quasiquote is a function, then you have to add a level of quotation.
2015-11-01T11:24:46Z pjb: `'(1 ,x 3) --> (quote (1 42 3)) would have to be written: (quasiquote (quote (quote (1 (unquote x) 3))))
2015-11-01T11:25:12Z pjb: + (lexical-environment)
2015-11-01T11:25:25Z pjb: then (let ((x 2)) `(+ 1 ,x)) can be written (quasiquote (lexical-environment) (quote (+ 1 (unquote x)))).
2015-11-01T11:26:03Z pjb: All this shows that it is not a good idea.
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2015-11-01T14:45:18Z ghking: (define-record-type (&xcond make-xcond xcond?) (parent &condition))
2015-11-01T14:45:18Z ghking: (xcond? (make-xcond))  #t
2015-11-01T14:45:37Z ghking: what dose & before xcond mean?
2015-11-01T14:46:12Z ghking: and what does & before condition mean?
2015-11-01T14:46:43Z ghking: I use chez scheme, and "the scheme programming language".
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2015-11-01T15:00:40Z kephra: http://o3db.com/demo/dpaste.html#1ZR954J <- syntax is just special form, is just a special function in my scheme ;-)
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2015-11-01T15:12:26Z kephra: http://o3db.com/demo/dpaste.html#1ADWZ19 <- don't know where this might lead ... but eval on syntax works on my Scheme
2015-11-01T15:12:32Z kephra: s/eval/apply/
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2015-11-02T06:04:13Z Pixel_Outlaw: Thinking about making a little forum in something like Racket. Anyone know if a web host will let you store a compiled program like that? Not traditional stuff like PHP might spook them.
2015-11-02T06:06:00Z Pixel_Outlaw: I've ignored web programming since I started programming but think it would be nice to try building something in a Lispy language like Racket.
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2015-11-02T06:53:28Z aeth: Pixel_Outlaw: If you're going to use something non-traditional, using some "cloud" server might be a better idea, though I'm not entirely sure.
2015-11-02T06:53:33Z aeth: e.g. EC2.
2015-11-02T06:53:39Z aeth: There are probably cheaper options, though.
2015-11-02T06:53:58Z aeth: You'll need full control to install stuff afaik.
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2015-11-02T07:04:39Z Pixel_Outlaw: aeth, allright. I'll look into it.
2015-11-02T07:04:58Z Pixel_Outlaw: I've avoided web programming like the plague for about 9 years.
2015-11-02T07:05:34Z Pixel_Outlaw: Too much churning and non standardization in browsers.
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2015-11-02T07:07:06Z aeth: Well I'm not sure if VMs are the cheapest option but there definitely isn't an issue with what you can run on them. The only real issue is that they tend to be either weak or expensive, but that might have changed in the past 5 or so years.
2015-11-02T07:07:27Z wasamasa: you'll not want to have shared hosting anyways
2015-11-02T07:08:12Z aeth: With VMs, you literally just have a Linux distro, and can do whatever (that's acceptable by the terms and conditions and laws!) with it via ssh. vs. shared hosting, where when I had it many years ago I basically just had FTP access.
2015-11-02T07:09:35Z wasamasa: there are some exceptions of course
2015-11-02T07:09:50Z wasamasa: where you get shell access and can compile stuff in your home directory
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2015-11-02T07:52:04Z kephra: Pixel_Outlaw, some general recommendations:
2015-11-02T07:52:48Z kephra: 1st - always unbundle domain and hosting contract - DNS costs about $7/domain year if you unbubdle them, so you can assign a new IP anytime
2015-11-02T07:53:13Z kephra: cheap hosting with a "free" domain is a bad trap to avoid!
2015-11-02T07:53:52Z kephra: 2nd - you can get a real root server for €30 on Hetzner auction - so VM's do only make sense <$10, imho
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2015-11-02T07:55:21Z Pixel_Outlaw: Thanks guys
2015-11-02T07:55:23Z kephra: when using a VM, avoid VZ, OpenVZ, Virtuozzo - this virtualization limits allocated memory - so you need several times more of their "warranted" memory, then you would need real memory!
2015-11-02T07:55:51Z kephra: so avoid VZ - they also allow to limit open files, open sockets and cripple the system even more
2015-11-02T07:56:21Z kephra: so keep care, that the VM is Xen or KVM
2015-11-02T07:57:22Z Pixel_Outlaw: I'll be sure to be careful. I'm glad I asked so I can avoid the traps.
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2015-11-02T07:58:52Z Pixel_Outlaw: I've seen some of those free domains too. They mandate you have x many original views per month or they shut it down.
2015-11-02T07:59:00Z Pixel_Outlaw: Seems like a really bad idea.
2015-11-02T07:59:24Z kephra: "free" domains often mean, that they own the domain
2015-11-02T07:59:37Z kephra: so they registered it on their own name - and held you hostage
2015-11-02T08:00:14Z Pixel_Outlaw: I kind of found the same thing out about free forum software. They will give you a forum but no real way to migrate.
2015-11-02T08:00:33Z kephra: ;-(
2015-11-02T08:01:04Z Pixel_Outlaw: Honestly I just want to make a minimalist forum system. I feel the current ones collect far too much data from users.
2015-11-02T08:01:37Z Pixel_Outlaw: I figure if I own the database tables I can always rewrite and modify the software to meet my needs.
2015-11-02T08:05:01Z kephra: lets continue in a few hours - i have to visit the city today
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2015-11-02T08:05:28Z Pixel_Outlaw: It is 1 AM for me. time for bed. Have a good one. :) Thanks guys!
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2015-11-02T11:09:03Z ghking: (define-record-type (&xcond make-xcond xcond?) (parent &condition))
2015-11-02T11:09:03Z ghking: (xcond? (make-xcond))  #t
2015-11-02T11:09:03Z ghking: what dose & before xcond mean?
2015-11-02T11:09:03Z ghking: and what does & before condition mean?
2015-11-02T11:09:03Z ghking: I use chez scheme, and "the scheme programming language".
2015-11-02T11:13:25Z fizzie: At least in standard Scheme, it's just a letter legal in identifiers.
2015-11-02T11:16:47Z fizzie: Looks like a convention used for record type names by whoever wrote that.
2015-11-02T11:23:43Z ghking: fizzie but why use xcond? rather &xcond?
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2015-11-02T11:44:04Z fizzie: Not a mind-reader. But possibly to indicate that it's a record type descriptor rather than something more usual, like a function.
2015-11-02T11:49:17Z taylan: ghking: probably just a convention used by the code's author
2015-11-02T11:49:31Z taylan: ghking: some people name their record types <foo>, some :foo, and I guess the author of that code prefers &foo
2015-11-02T11:50:54Z ghking: taylan thx!
2015-11-02T11:51:42Z taylan: ghking: now that I look closer, maybe it's a convention specifically for condition types.  it defines a subtype of &condition there after all.
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2015-11-02T12:07:07Z ghking: taylan thanks
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2015-11-03T11:21:52Z kephra: http://o3db.com/demo/dpaste.html#3PC1DVR <- what do you think about the combination of chicken like $ and sxml expressions?
2015-11-03T11:22:33Z kephra: will code x->s tomorrow ;-)
2015-11-03T11:22:54Z kephra: to read out DOM as sexpression
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2015-11-03T12:26:05Z vev_: we are inventing tools to create ideas! Come join us on #libreidea and help develop this project >> http://www.libreidea.org/
2015-11-03T12:26:07Z vev_: we need new voluntary devs to help us on this project >> http://www.libreidea.org/Collaborative_keywords_mixing_project
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2015-11-03T16:22:42Z na_th_an: can anyone explain why '(2 . NIL) and '(2 . ()) are not equal? '(2 . NIL) returns (2 . nil), but isn't that the same thing as a list with 2 as its only item?
2015-11-03T16:23:10Z taylan: na_th_an: NIL is just an arbitrary symbol in Scheme.  it has no special meaning.
2015-11-03T16:23:10Z dpk: in Scheme, the symbol nil is not the empty list
2015-11-03T16:23:36Z dpk: as taylan said. just an ordinary symbol
2015-11-03T16:24:03Z na_th_an: does that mean lists are not nil terminated? how does that work?
2015-11-03T16:24:12Z taylan: they are () terminated
2015-11-03T16:24:26Z na_th_an: and that's represented differently in memory from nil?
2015-11-03T16:24:31Z LeoNerd: "nil" isn't a thing.
2015-11-03T16:24:31Z taylan: also called "null" or "the empty list object".  a distinct object of a distinct data type.
2015-11-03T16:24:33Z dpk: yes
2015-11-03T16:24:40Z LeoNerd: There is no stadnard Scheme symbol whose name is "nil"
2015-11-03T16:24:48Z na_th_an: well then, my professor really sucks
2015-11-03T16:25:15Z pjb: nil is a symbol. () is an empty list.
2015-11-03T16:25:17Z taylan: he/she must have conflated scheme and lisp
2015-11-03T16:25:33Z na_th_an: yeah, he seems to be talking about theme kinda interchangably
2015-11-03T16:25:37Z na_th_an: he's not a very clear person
2015-11-03T16:25:42Z na_th_an: this is good clarification though, thanks a bunch
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2015-11-03T16:25:54Z pjb: na_th_an: your teacher is teaching Common Lisp, not scheme.  Have a look at #lisp and http://cliki.net/
2015-11-03T16:26:05Z na_th_an: no, he's teaching scheme, we're just at the super basics
2015-11-03T16:26:13Z na_th_an: we're using scheme48...
2015-11-03T16:26:33Z pjb: Perhaps in scheme48 nil is bound or is identical to ()?
2015-11-03T16:26:38Z na_th_an: he's asking us to do some dot/lisp notation transformations by hand
2015-11-03T16:26:46Z na_th_an: no, nil and () are not identical in scheme48
2015-11-03T16:27:00Z na_th_an: I was checking my answers in scheme48 and getting strange results which eventually led me here
2015-11-03T16:27:14Z na_th_an: and now it all makes sense
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2015-11-03T16:27:56Z taylan: some profs are just like that it seems.  an intern recently asked me to help with some C assignment and apparently their prof conflated C and C++ O_o
2015-11-03T16:28:29Z scoofy: i think some people don't realize that C and C++ are quite different
2015-11-03T16:29:30Z LeoNerd: Every time people talk about "C/C++" I'm tempted to reply talking about "French/German"
2015-11-03T16:29:43Z pjb: Or Latin/French :-)
2015-11-03T16:29:48Z na_th_an: nah, french is romantic and german in germanic
2015-11-03T16:29:55Z na_th_an: something like english/german is more accurate
2015-11-03T16:30:02Z LeoNerd: Yeah but they both use the latin alphabet
2015-11-03T16:30:05Z LeoNerd: They must be the same right?
2015-11-03T16:30:19Z na_th_an: true, but latin is dead
2015-11-03T16:30:26Z pjb: C too :-)
2015-11-03T16:30:37Z na_th_an: in some fields, maybe
2015-11-03T16:30:47Z LeoNerd: I use C all the time
2015-11-03T16:30:54Z LeoNerd: No other sensible language to fit on an AVR microcontroller
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2015-11-03T16:31:06Z pjb: Modula-2 would.
2015-11-03T16:32:35Z scoofy: C isn't dead. all kernels are written in C
2015-11-03T16:32:49Z pjb: No, not all.
2015-11-03T16:33:17Z pjb: Some are written in Pascal, some in Modula-2, some in Oberon, some in Common Lisp, etc.
2015-11-03T16:33:31Z pjb: A lot of them are written in Ada.
2015-11-03T16:33:43Z scoofy: well... back in prehistoric times, yes. afaik no new OSes are written in pascal (are they?)
2015-11-03T16:34:27Z scoofy: okay, let's just say, OS kernels are "mostly" written in C
2015-11-03T16:34:37Z pjb: Recently a new OS named Mezzano has been written in Common Lisp.
2015-11-03T16:35:44Z jackdaniel: there is also https://github.com/mntmn/interim (which does some lisp, not CL though)
2015-11-03T16:36:06Z dpk: no reason you couldn't write an OS entirely in whatever compiled language you like, as long as it can interface with assembly code somehow for bootstrapping
2015-11-03T16:36:21Z mario-goulart: and http://www.mail-archive.com/picolisp@software-lab.de/msg04823.html
2015-11-03T16:37:12Z mario-goulart: You can't browse facebook pages or watch youtube videos with any of them, though.  You'd need an OS with a C kernel.
2015-11-03T16:37:35Z jackdaniel: as a plus interim may run hasted on linux (as an userspace application)
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2015-11-03T16:39:35Z jackdaniel: mario-goulart: why do you need an OS with a C kernel to watch video?
2015-11-03T16:40:35Z jackdaniel: s/hasted/hosted/
2015-11-03T16:40:47Z mario-goulart: jackdaniel: because there is no other alternative, as far as I know. :-)
2015-11-03T16:41:11Z pjb: MS-Windows is written in C++ and you can watch videos on MS-Windows.
2015-11-03T16:41:13Z jackdaniel: windows kernel is written in C++ as far as I heard
2015-11-03T16:41:27Z mario-goulart: Oh, yes.
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2015-11-03T16:41:34Z mario-goulart: Ok.  So either C or C++. :-)
2015-11-03T16:41:58Z pjb: I fail to see where bugs are required to watch videos.
2015-11-03T16:42:49Z mario-goulart: Buggy or not, that's the only thing that works for practical purposes.
2015-11-03T16:43:26Z jackdaniel: I believe that other things would work too given enough people/time/money
2015-11-03T16:44:06Z jackdaniel: and fact that most widely used language is C (and C++ sometimes) is just because Unix was written in it
2015-11-03T16:44:31Z jackdaniel: (highly opinionated statement obviously)
2015-11-03T16:44:41Z scoofy: so all linux derivatives are also written in C
2015-11-03T16:48:02Z pjb: scoofy: no, not all unix derivative are written in C.  There are unix derivative written in Pascal, and other languages.
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2015-11-03T16:59:54Z gnomon: pjb, and, inevitably, JavaScript.
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2015-11-03T17:09:31Z pjb: gnomon: oh yes, several systems have been written in JavaScript :-(
2015-11-03T17:10:06Z jackdaniel: which kernel was written in js?
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2015-11-03T17:12:04Z pjb: https://www.lively-kernel.org/
2015-11-03T17:12:35Z pjb: http://lively-web.org/welcome.html
2015-11-03T17:13:31Z jackdaniel: does it talk with the hardware?
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2015-11-03T17:13:53Z pjb: jackdaniel: yes. The hardware is the browser!
2015-11-03T17:14:02Z pjb: a virtual hardware if you will.
2015-11-03T17:14:19Z jackdaniel: then emacs is a kernel too (kernel is a hardware \o/)
2015-11-03T17:14:24Z pjb: Yes.
2015-11-03T17:14:28Z jackdaniel: wait, text-mode is a kernel (emacs is a hardware)
2015-11-03T17:14:32Z pjb: https://bertfreudenberg.github.io/SqueakJS/
2015-11-03T17:15:09Z jackdaniel: it doesn't fit definition of kernel I know though - framework maybe
2015-11-03T17:15:13Z pjb: https://bertfreudenberg.github.io/SqueakJS/demo/simple.html
2015-11-03T17:15:18Z jackdaniel: or a library
2015-11-03T17:15:26Z pjb: jackdaniel: you have a distorted notion of a kernel.
2015-11-03T17:15:47Z pjb: A lot of people have, because they don't have a CS education.
2015-11-03T17:16:45Z jackdaniel: well, I have CS education. "distortion" might be a matter of opinion in this case, where the baseline is your understanding of this term
2015-11-03T17:17:06Z LeoNerd: Why do I keep misreading "baseline" as "vaseline" ?
2015-11-03T17:17:29Z pjb: LeoNerd: in some languages, b and v are pronounced basically the same.
2015-11-03T17:17:36Z pjb: (eg. in Spanish).
2015-11-03T17:17:42Z LeoNerd: They're also right next to each other on the keyboard
2015-11-03T17:17:44Z LeoNerd: It's an easy typo
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2015-11-03T18:13:01Z Wabi: in proper spanish , b and v are pronounced different
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2015-11-03T18:48:52Z dTal: and man is it interesting! closest thing to a fusion of Lisp and APL I ever saw
2015-11-03T18:50:07Z dTal: sum(4 5), (+ 4 5), and 4 + 5 are all synonyms
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2015-11-04T09:15:50Z kephra: http://o3db.com/demo/dpaste.html#02WYRQZ <- (write (x->s ($@ "main"))) ;;; the dollar notation works well also when reading from DOM ... click on [RUN] ;-)
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2015-11-04T12:22:36Z xfbs: hey, can anyone here help me with racket? :/
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2015-11-04T12:26:12Z xfbs: I'm writing tests for a function and I'd like to place them in a let or a local block, so I don't have to manually redefine the datastructures that are shared between tests. now I have two issues: a) racket doesn't like tests that are not at the top level and b) I can't figure out how to have multiple (check-expect ...) in a single (local)/(let) block. any ideas?
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2015-11-05T01:57:35Z sevengraff: do any of the schemes have a tool like Python's pip to make it easy to download libraries?
2015-11-05T01:58:45Z jcowan__: SUre.  Unfortunately there is either one or zero for each Scheme.  There are portable alternatives, but each is only portable to a few Schemes.
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2015-11-05T02:00:25Z sevengraff: jcowan: can you give me some examples so i can see what the ecosystem looks like?
2015-11-05T02:00:37Z jcowan:  This is part of the Curse of Lisp:  see <http://www.winestockwebdesign.com/Essays/Lisp_Curse.html>
2015-11-05T02:01:18Z jcowan: Racket has packages, Chicken has eggs, Chibi uses Snow2, Gauche comes with batteries included, etc. etc.
2015-11-05T02:02:42Z jcowan: Scheme code is fairly portable, but Scheme libraries are not.  You usually port a Scheme application by porting the whole Scheme (which is almost always easy)
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2015-11-05T02:15:27Z sevengraff: ok, poking around the web, Snow is not scoped to one implementation of scheme, but other systems are.
2015-11-05T02:19:42Z dTal: it would be nice if there were "compatibility libraries" so that Schemes could just load some code to get unimplemented features
2015-11-05T02:20:21Z dTal: if only the language could be extended from within itself
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2015-11-05T03:04:29Z dTal: Welp, Nial just violated my principle of least surprise. Apparently != evaluates to ((100) (2 20678 23766))
2015-11-05T03:05:03Z dTal: Just !=, by itself.
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2015-11-05T03:06:25Z jcowan: APLish languages don't really admit functions = data, though in practice they mostly act that way.  No arrays of functions, e.g.
2015-11-05T03:07:25Z dTal: Nial does! It calls them "atlases".
2015-11-05T03:07:34Z dTal: Arrays of functions, that is.
2015-11-05T03:09:57Z dTal: The manual demystifies everything. Apparently ! returns the internal representation of an identifier, which is undefined by spec but guaranteed to work correctly with eval.
2015-11-05T03:10:51Z dTal: And here was little old me trying to get to "not equals".
2015-11-05T03:13:54Z dTal: I think this language would work best as a syntax reader for Scheme. Then ! could return the AST for that code. It would all dovetail beautifully
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2015-11-05T03:19:23Z dTal: Yes yes "why not just use scheme"
2015-11-05T03:20:32Z dTal: but there's something to be said for not having to type "map" and "apply" all the time
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2015-11-05T15:25:27Z dTal: Hmm, you're right jcowan - Atlases aren't quite the same as first class functions in lists
2015-11-05T15:26:00Z jcowan: I had never heard of them, so I was quite prepared to believe you.
2015-11-05T15:26:16Z dTal: that's really interesting you drilled straight to the heart of the issue though, on the basis of != being weird
2015-11-05T15:26:48Z dTal: There's a good writeup here: http://www.math.bas.bg/bantchev/place/nial.html
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2015-11-05T15:27:10Z dTal: (exclamation point is "cast")
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2015-11-05T15:31:57Z jcowan: No, it was based on my background knowledge of APL, J, etc.
2015-11-05T15:32:18Z jcowan: "Age and treachery beats youth and skill every time"
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2015-11-05T15:34:07Z dTal: Mind you I'm not quite clear what the difference is still - in practice it nearly always *behaves* as if functions were first class
2015-11-05T15:34:27Z dTal: (2 2 reshape [sin, cos, tan, sqrt]) (2 2 reshape [1, 2, 3, 4])
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2015-11-05T15:35:25Z dTal: ^yields a 2x2 matrix of 2x2 matrices, with each function applied to each number
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2015-11-05T15:37:28Z dTal: far as I can tell this is basically lisp with syntactically implicit map and apply, APL core functions, and algol-style control flow / scoping
2015-11-05T15:38:18Z jcowan: Everything is "basically Lisp with ...", but yes.
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2015-11-05T16:01:06Z pjb: dTal: just for info, in CL: (make-array '(2 2) :displaced-to #(1 2 3 4))   #| --> #2A((1 2) (3 4)) |#
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2015-11-05T17:19:59Z dTal: ah man I hate when the manual says "it works like this!" and you type the example in verbatim and it doesn't work
2015-11-05T17:20:42Z LeoNerd: I usually keep a specific test case file that's a copypaste of my synopsis example
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2015-11-05T17:43:01Z dTal: oh nasty, no local function definitions?
2015-11-05T17:43:22Z jcowan: "It's just Lisp, only without ..."
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2015-11-05T17:44:26Z dTal: yep
2015-11-05T17:44:59Z dTal: though I wonder how much of that is from the rough and ready 3-decades-old interpreter
2015-11-05T17:48:57Z dTal: The documentation contains an example of a local function definition so I can only assume it's supposed to work
2015-11-05T17:53:55Z dTal: today != yeilds "sh: 1: =: not found"
2015-11-05T17:54:07Z dTal: !ls gives me a directory listing
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2015-11-05T17:54:58Z dTal: I'm not sure how that's possible when it gave me ((100) (2 20678 23766)) yesterday
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2015-11-05T18:00:14Z dTal: pjb: actually one of things that interests me is it distinguishes between nested lists and the dimensionality of arrays - so ((1 2) (3 4)) is distinct from a 2x2 table
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2015-11-05T18:30:23Z jcowan: dTal:  That's why when using array notation in CL you have to specify the rank:  #2A((1 2) (3 4)) is one thing, #1A((1 2) (3 4)) is another, and #0A((1 2) (3 4)) is yet a third.
2015-11-05T18:30:51Z jcowan: (There may actually be a default, probably 2A, but I'd rather not rely on it.
2015-11-05T18:31:03Z jcowan: )
2015-11-05T18:31:11Z leppie:  phew
2015-11-05T18:31:33Z jcowan: Chicken uses the same convention, and I may propose it for R7RS-large
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2015-11-05T19:17:20Z dTal: That's fascinating, I did not know CL had the concept of rank
2015-11-05T19:20:08Z dTal: Sorry for bugging you guys with all this APL stuff, I know this isn't really the place for it - but it all seems deeply and mysteriously connected, and well
2015-11-05T19:20:15Z dTal: you guys are friendly
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2015-11-05T19:27:40Z jcowan: Well, almost everything in the computing universe can be seen through a Scheme lens, and yes, we are a friendly lot
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2015-11-06T04:52:38Z daidoji: hello
2015-11-06T04:53:04Z daidoji: don't know if anyone is active in here at the moment, but I was working through SICP and I'm on exercise 1.22
2015-11-06T04:53:28Z daidoji: should this run incredibly quickly to the point that I don't see the slowdown mentioned in the problem?
2015-11-06T04:53:39Z daidoji: Its the problem with timing prime searches
2015-11-06T04:55:47Z daidoji: oh I guess it is supposed to be quick on modern hardware http://www.billthelizard.com/2010/02/sicp-exercise-122-timed-prime-test.html
2015-11-06T04:55:48Z rudybot: http://teensy.info/iVfggGdkyK
2015-11-06T04:55:55Z daidoji: nevermind
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2015-11-06T05:23:23Z fadein: daidoji: you might try searching for primes amongst much larger numbers :P
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2015-11-06T05:36:39Z marchelzo: How does this chanel feel about The Little Schemer?
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2015-11-06T05:58:49Z pjb: Channels don't feel.
2015-11-06T05:58:54Z pjb: They channel.
2015-11-06T05:59:16Z marchelzo: How does pjb feel about The Little Schemer?
2015-11-06T05:59:31Z pjb: marchelzo: "The Little Schemer" is very nice and tasty (notably them marmalade and peanut butter sandwiches).
2015-11-06T06:00:15Z marchelzo: uhh
2015-11-06T06:00:41Z pjb: That might be the only down side, you need bread, marmalade and peanut butter to read it.
2015-11-06T06:01:10Z marchelzo: I was really surprised when I read the reviews for it.
2015-11-06T06:02:25Z marchelzo: Some people say it's great, but there were also quite a few people who absolutely hated it. Like really thought it was just an awful idea for a book.
2015-11-06T06:04:16Z pjb: Well, it teaches only one thing, recursive list processing.
2015-11-06T06:04:49Z pjb: It is assumed you've learned the rest of CS already, and it teaches only what's usually very specific to lisp (or was, in the 70s when it was written).
2015-11-06T06:05:13Z pjb: People then understand everything wrong as always, and believe lisp is only that.
2015-11-06T06:06:57Z marchelzo: I see.
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2015-11-06T08:53:19Z kephra: pjb, lists are the natural structure for scheme code and data - my o3db scheme has hashes for quite some time - but I only use them to access js native data
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2015-11-06T09:24:58Z pjb: kephra: data structure are not natural to a language, they're natural to an algorithm.  When you have an algorithm that require index access, then you use a vector.  If it requires keyed access, then a hash table.  Etc.
2015-11-06T09:28:17Z kephra: vectors feel like 2nd class citizen in Scheme - and hashes came much later then r4rs
2015-11-06T09:30:00Z taylan: O_o  vectors are as standard as they could be in Scheme
2015-11-06T09:30:26Z taylan: the situation with hashtables is sadly pretty bad, though most support SRFI-69
2015-11-06T09:31:29Z kephra: taylan, sure vectors are in r4rs - but I rarely use the vector functions, even if lists are based on vectors my scheme look like
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2015-11-06T09:37:12Z kephra did not read the little schemer ( where this discussion started ) ... but I think a Scheme book should focus on list processing first
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2015-11-06T14:02:16Z nilg: is there a for-all library function, like map but returns true if all arguments evaluate to #t in the given function?
2015-11-06T14:02:38Z nilg: I know I can easily write that with fold, but just asking...
2015-11-06T14:02:44Z LeoNerd: all
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2015-11-06T14:03:23Z LeoNerd: E.g.  (all positive? 1 2 3 4 20) => #t  but   (all positive? 1 2 3 -4 5) => #f
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2015-11-06T14:04:10Z nilg: great! Thanks.
2015-11-06T14:04:38Z leppie: nilg: There are about 10 different aliases for the same proc ;p
2015-11-06T14:04:53Z DerGuteMoritz: SRFI 1 calls it `every'
2015-11-06T14:04:55Z taylan: nilg: SRFI-1/every
2015-11-06T14:05:01Z taylan: 'all' is not in any standard AFAIK
2015-11-06T14:05:10Z taylan: or is it in R6RS?
2015-11-06T14:05:15Z leppie: for-all in R6RS
2015-11-06T14:05:51Z nilg: I'm still kinda a lost between what SRFI and R6RS mean...
2015-11-06T14:06:25Z nilg: R6RS is about the language, and SRFI is about the standard library, right?
2015-11-06T14:06:26Z LeoNerd: R<n>RS is one of the actual specifications
2015-11-06T14:06:29Z leppie: SRFI is a cross spec library, R6RS is a specfic version of the spec
2015-11-06T14:06:34Z LeoNerd: SRFI is an organisation of people who submit little libraries
2015-11-06T14:06:52Z LeoNerd: SRFI is about as close as Scheme has to Perl's CPAN, or Python's.. PyPi is it? or Ruby's.. gem.. thing.
2015-11-06T14:07:01Z taylan: RnRS for integers n are the "Revised^N Report on Scheme".  SRFI are Scheme Requests For Implementations.
2015-11-06T14:07:57Z nilg: So the latest SRFI are usually part of R6RS, right?
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2015-11-06T14:08:14Z leppie: nilg: No
2015-11-06T14:08:31Z leppie: I think that is R7RS-large's aim though
2015-11-06T14:08:50Z LeoNerd: IMHO, R6RS is like the second/third Matrix films. It doesn't exist. R7 is looking nice though
2015-11-06T14:08:57Z leppie: Many R6RS implementations do support numerous SRFI's
2015-11-06T14:09:01Z nilg: Well let me rephrase, where do I look for to find the documentation of a function like for-all or every? :-)
2015-11-06T14:09:18Z nilg: cause googling it didn't get me far
2015-11-06T14:09:22Z LeoNerd: R7 is doing what I *wanted* C11 to do; it makes a nice formal split between the core /language/, and a standard library,
2015-11-06T14:09:27Z taylan: LeoNerd: ignoring R6RS is a Very Very Bad Idea
2015-11-06T14:09:32Z taylan: IMO, of course
2015-11-06T14:09:42Z leppie: I agree with taylan :D
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2015-11-06T14:10:26Z taylan: nilg: the standardization situation is very sad with Scheme unfortunately.  most people just join the community of a specific implementation.
2015-11-06T14:10:53Z taylan: I work a bit on trying to improve things but it feels somewhat futile to be honest.  otherwise I'm a Guiler.
2015-11-06T14:10:54Z leppie: think of it as the star wars saga
2015-11-06T14:12:08Z leppie: IMO the SRFI ports for R6RS is the most portable, most run without any implementation specific details
2015-11-06T14:12:27Z leppie: Many will disagree with me though
2015-11-06T14:14:42Z leppie: In the end, whether a spec is sucessful depends on the number of conforming implementations supporting it
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2015-11-06T14:38:29Z DGASAU: My impression of R7 has become worse.
2015-11-06T14:38:38Z DGASAU: R7RS editors should be fed to sharks.
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2015-11-06T16:06:52Z badkins: Once I discovered that Scheme was the best fit for me, I started researching various implementations and got pretty weary. I ended up choosing Racket despite it diverging from the fold somewhat. I think it may be in the nature of Lisps to divide and conquer themselves!
2015-11-06T16:07:29Z jcowan: badkins:  http://www.winestockwebdesign.com/Essays/Lisp_Curse.html
2015-11-06T16:07:46Z jcowan: (I should make a keyboard macro for that)
2015-11-06T16:07:55Z badkins: :)
2015-11-06T16:09:13Z badkins: One of the factors in my choice was seeing the relentless announcements of new versions of the years on comp.lang.lisp that gave a strong impression of activity, longevity, support, etc.
2015-11-06T16:09:41Z badkins: Standardization is great, but de facto standardization can work quite well.
2015-11-06T16:09:45Z jcowan: Yes, it certainly has the most active community.
2015-11-06T16:10:03Z jcowan: As R7RS-large chair, I'm quite aware of that.  :-)
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2015-11-06T16:17:26Z DGASAU: badkins: "de facto" standards don't work.
2015-11-06T16:18:51Z leppie: Odd question: Is it possible to parse Racket infix notation with a LALR(1) parser? (I am stumped, even though I might be able to parse it, I dont thing I could ever get it to a single rule to do the transformation)
2015-11-06T16:19:28Z leppie: DGASAU: :D
2015-11-06T16:19:41Z DGASAU: leppie: this is #scheme, isn't it?
2015-11-06T16:19:46Z DGASAU: leppie: don't use LALR(1).
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2015-11-06T16:20:34Z leppie: I am too lazy to change it for an extra feature, working fine for what I need, just wondering... if not, I'll drop the idea
2015-11-06T16:20:41Z DGASAU: leppie: the natural way to parse in FPL is using LL(*).
2015-11-06T16:21:25Z leppie: DGASAU: Yes yes, I got told that :D
2015-11-06T16:23:27Z leppie: Now if I could fine a LL(*) parser gen for C#, that would be awesome
2015-11-06T16:23:45Z DGASAU: Why do you need parser generator exactly?
2015-11-06T16:24:02Z leppie: I am lazy :D
2015-11-06T16:24:23Z DGASAU: Parsing using LL(*) in FPLs is trivial.
2015-11-06T16:24:25Z leppie: And it is less error prone
2015-11-06T16:24:29Z DGASAU: Oh, really?
2015-11-06T16:24:33Z DGASAU: Why?
2015-11-06T16:24:42Z leppie: For me ;p
2015-11-06T16:25:08Z DGASAU: Pick some implementation of parser combinators and learn using it.
2015-11-06T16:25:40Z leppie: Seems a bit of overkill for just one nice-to-have feature
2015-11-06T16:25:53Z DGASAU: ???
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2015-11-06T16:26:06Z leppie: If I ever get to learn and use it, I will try it
2015-11-06T16:26:23Z DGASAU: That's interesting.
2015-11-06T16:26:46Z leppie: For now, LALR(1) is doing a good job, at least for the last 8 years
2015-11-06T16:26:54Z DGASAU: You are prepared to waste your time on dealing with LALR(1) and are not prepared to spend your time using LL(*).
2015-11-06T16:27:00Z DGASAU: This is pretty stupid.
2015-11-06T16:27:47Z DGASAU: "LALR(1) is doing a good job..."
2015-11-06T16:27:48Z DGASAU: Ha!
2015-11-06T16:29:25Z leppie: How does LL(*) compare to LALR(1) in terms of speed? (I only used that becasue 1) I knew YACC and 2) something was available at that time)
2015-11-06T16:29:41Z vanila: what are you parsing?
2015-11-06T16:30:15Z DGASAU: LL(*) is linear on string length.
2015-11-06T16:30:39Z leppie: Stock standard scheme, but as said, I would like to do Racket's infix notation
2015-11-06T16:31:02Z leppie: DGASAU: thanks, I will investigate
2015-11-06T16:31:27Z vanila: if you tokenize first them scheme is LL(1)
2015-11-06T16:31:57Z leppie: vanila: I do tokenize
2015-11-06T16:32:14Z DGASAU: If your tokens are regular, then you can do the same LL(1) scannerless.
2015-11-06T16:32:28Z leppie: But for Racket infix notation you seemingly need more than LL(1)
2015-11-06T16:32:42Z pjb: regular and LL(1).
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2015-11-06T16:40:52Z leppie: OK, found several LL(k) parser gens for C# (at this stage I want to keep it simple, and just replace the existing parser that is in C# already, then move to Scheme-based at later stage)
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2015-11-06T16:46:38Z leppie: wo, the satte of parser gen for C# has improved ginormously over the last 8 years!
2015-11-06T16:46:53Z leppie: s/satte/state/
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2015-11-06T16:47:59Z jcowan: leppie: looks like it depends heavily on scribble-style quasiquotation: do you have that?
2015-11-06T16:48:51Z leppie: jcowan: what is that in english? ;p
2015-11-06T16:49:41Z jcowan: Looking at the racket infix page, there is all this @${2*(1+3^4)}
2015-11-06T16:50:29Z leppie: No, I am talking about '(1 2 . 3 . 4 5) => (3 1 2 4 5)
2015-11-06T16:50:36Z jcowan: if you don't have the @-syntax (scribble syntax, a kind of quasiquotation), racket infex is probably a pain ot use
2015-11-06T16:50:42Z jcowan: Oh
2015-11-06T16:51:18Z leppie: so any datum surrounded by dots becomes the head
2015-11-06T16:51:24Z jcowan: Gotcha
2015-11-06T16:51:29Z vanila: why?
2015-11-06T16:51:40Z vanila: that doesn't fit with . being cons?
2015-11-06T16:51:53Z jcowan: For people who want to write (2 .+. 3) as God and McCarthy intended
2015-11-06T16:52:05Z quux: aha..
2015-11-06T16:52:09Z jcowan: or I guess technically (2 . + . 3)
2015-11-06T16:52:13Z leppie: vanila: obviously, just a simplified explaination
2015-11-06T16:52:37Z jcowan: I was looking at http://pkg-build.racket-lang.org/doc/infix-manual/index.html at forst
2015-11-06T16:52:39Z jcowan: first
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2015-11-06T16:53:32Z leppie: vanila: I realize there are quite a few constraints like 'padded' datums and list has to be proper
2015-11-06T16:53:50Z vanila: that doesn't seem useful to me why not just  write (+ 2 3)
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2015-11-06T16:54:08Z jcowan: There speaks the Lisp insider
2015-11-06T16:54:13Z jcowan: (me too)
2015-11-06T16:54:22Z jcowan: It's meant to be a small concession to outsiders, I think
2015-11-06T16:54:23Z leppie: vanila: exactly! if the feature is too hard to implement for the benefit, skip it. It is just a nice to have
2015-11-06T16:55:38Z leppie: vanila: A good example cky gave me is to present typed racket nicer, eg normally you do (-> fixnum fixnum), but (fixnum . -> . fixnum) looks more natural
2015-11-06T16:56:00Z vanila: yeah i gotta agree the (-> a b) thing is not nicely readable
2015-11-06T16:57:47Z leppie: Also, it is ambigous if you want omitted type specs, eg what does (-> fixnum) mean? takes fixnum, or return it? Havinf -> as the divider solves the problem
2015-11-06T16:58:57Z leppie: Anysywas, that is how I did it for IronScheme, also looks consistent with annotating lets and other forms
2015-11-06T16:59:41Z leppie: And you can use the same parsers for everything, but still not pretty....
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2015-11-06T17:07:51Z leppie: I am still divided on this whole static typing thing, it only really benefit types you can place on the stack and give you compile time errors, which seems to be hit or miss with normal scheme, eg memq, SomeType or #f
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2015-11-06T17:09:40Z leppie: IF I had to do a typed scheme for the .NET CLR, I would probably make #f represent as .NET null and have NULL? typed
2015-11-06T17:10:43Z leppie: Also, there would be no way to represent improper lists without nasty type definitions
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2015-11-06T17:13:13Z badkins: DGASAU: sorry - was out at lunch. re: "de facto standards" my experience with Ruby, Python and other ecosystems is that de facto standards do work, and sometimes work better than official standards
2015-11-06T17:13:36Z badkins: depends a lot on the definition of "work" and what goals you're trying to accomplish, etc. - in my case, the main goal is productivity
2015-11-06T17:13:57Z DGASAU: badkins: those cases are not "de facto standards."
2015-11-06T17:14:13Z DGASAU: badkins: those are languages with single implementation.
2015-11-06T17:14:34Z leppie: jcowan: (2 .+. 3) does not work, ever!
2015-11-06T17:14:42Z leppie: rudybot: '(2 .+. 3)
2015-11-06T17:14:42Z rudybot: leppie: ; Value: '(2 .+. 3)
2015-11-06T17:15:44Z badkins: DGASAU: fair enough
2015-11-06T17:15:58Z leppie: rudybot: '(2 . +. 3)
2015-11-06T17:15:58Z rudybot: leppie: (define-values (x y) (values 2 3))
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2015-11-06T17:16:10Z jcowan: DGASAU:  Single *dominant* implementations.  The others have to play catchup or lose.
2015-11-06T17:16:12Z DGASAU: badkins: If you want examples of the opposite, consider C or C++.
2015-11-06T17:16:23Z DGASAU: jcowan: same shit.
2015-11-06T17:16:24Z leppie: rudybot probably gave an acceptable answer there :D
2015-11-06T17:17:26Z DGASAU: badkins: you can have gcc, clang (that tries to be gcc as hard as possible), msvc, icc, and few others.
2015-11-06T17:17:38Z DGASAU: badkins: you have a lot of incompatibilities.
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2015-11-06T17:19:34Z badkins: DGASAU: right, the single implementation model has worked well in my case, although there are naturally pros/cons. Racket seems to be in the minority of single implementation languages that doesn't have a BDFL which I think is a plus.
2015-11-06T17:19:58Z badkins: And yes, I know this is #scheme, so I won't continue to push Racket :)
2015-11-06T17:21:05Z jcowan: We are not anti-Racket.  We just like to abuse it a little.
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2015-11-06T17:22:45Z leppie: badkins: try clojure :D
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2015-11-06T17:24:32Z leppie: side note: went to #clojure for a few hours last night, just noob questions/observations, any decent Clojure channels dealing with real problems?
2015-11-06T17:24:51Z badkins: leppie: I actually like the Clojure language reasonably well, but I really don't want to be on the JVM for a number of reasons, and no TCO ?!?!
2015-11-06T17:25:44Z badkins: my perfect language would be Scheme with tons of useful libraries and great multi-core utilization :)
2015-11-06T17:25:59Z leppie: badkins: For not even trying a simply TCE transform, it should burnt at the stake, nothing stops the language doing that
2015-11-06T17:27:02Z leppie: The IronScheme completely sucks at optimization, and still TCE is one of the simplest and costfree ones to do
2015-11-06T17:27:12Z LeoNerd: Mmmm TCE
2015-11-06T17:27:32Z leppie: LeoNerd: Yes, I use that correctly ;p
2015-11-06T17:28:43Z badkins: leppie: it was my understanding that the JVM made it particularly difficult for some reason, but I've never looked into it
2015-11-06T17:28:43Z leppie: Riastradh has burnt that into my brain
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2015-11-06T17:29:30Z leppie: badkins: TCE is the transform to change a tail call into a while loop, even GCC does that
2015-11-06T17:29:35Z jcowan: It's not doing proper tail calls, it's doing them in every single case, that's hard, unless you adopt Cheney/Chicken, in which case all calls cost the same (i.e. more)
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2015-11-06T17:30:46Z leppie: jcowan: again, you miss the point, proper tail calls and proper tail recursion is not the same! There is no need to do a tail call to say car or cdr that can possibly not recurse.
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2015-11-06T17:31:10Z leppie: (I think Riastradh might be proud of me now ;p)
2015-11-06T17:32:58Z jcowan: Yes, removing some recursions is easy and good, but removing recursion in the general case (indirectly through unknown procedures, that is) is still hard.
2015-11-06T17:33:07Z jcowan: I don't think we really disagree.
2015-11-06T17:33:15Z leppie: tail calls are damn expensive on .NET, so I actually in the last year or so added simple analysis to track possibly recursive procedures (also tail calls cannot be inlined by the .NET JIT)
2015-11-06T17:33:19Z vanila: what is removing recursion?
2015-11-06T17:33:40Z jcowan: s/recursion/tail recursion
2015-11-06T17:33:52Z leppie: vanila: I think he meant via TCE
2015-11-06T17:34:19Z leppie: some recursion is just inevitable
2015-11-06T17:35:06Z leppie: For those cases, I still faithfully emit a tail call (even though it might not be needed, but the cost of finding out is more, for me at least)
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2015-11-06T17:35:46Z leppie: the Ackermann function is good example that can be partially optimised with TCE
2015-11-06T17:36:01Z vanila: i wonder about flow analysis to decide which lambdas can be heap or stack allocated
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2015-11-06T17:36:58Z leppie: vanila: In IronScheme at least, the all on the heap, only primites, like those in Java can safely go on the CLR stack
2015-11-06T17:37:40Z vanila: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JpK9e__q5Ts
2015-11-06T17:37:55Z vanila: i was curious if this could be used for it
2015-11-06T17:38:16Z leppie: Something I wrote a while back to show TCE optimization of Ackermann in IronScheme: http://ironscheme.codeplex.com/wikipage?title=Compilation%20transformation&referringTitle=Documentation
2015-11-06T17:38:16Z rudybot: http://teensy.info/8OO8GRbDvV
2015-11-06T17:39:11Z leppie: C# will never do it, while F# does it, as it is properly tail recursive
2015-11-06T17:39:57Z leppie: But there are probably a lot of examples where tail calls in .NET (say when using F#) are slower than C#
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2015-11-06T19:01:30Z turtleman_: i think i invented a functional data structure, but im not sure if someone else considered it before
2015-11-06T19:02:02Z turtleman_: its a vector of vectors stored in a square matrix. persistent write takes O(sqrt(n)), read takes O(1)
2015-11-06T19:02:21Z turtleman_: https://notabug.org/PangolinTurtle/squector-r7rs
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2015-11-06T19:02:43Z turtleman_: hmm i said that wrong. i should say its a square matrix, stored as a vector of vectors
2015-11-06T19:03:49Z wasamasa: squector, huh
2015-11-06T19:03:56Z turtleman_: instead of a vector of vectors, you can use a squector of squectors. i think that would make it O(n^1/4) persistent write
2015-11-06T19:04:05Z turtleman_: yeah, thats just my working name :P
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2015-11-06T19:04:29Z wasamasa: how exactly would you use it?
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2015-11-06T19:14:10Z turtleman_: wasamasa: what do you mean?
2015-11-06T19:14:46Z turtleman_: same way you use vectors
2015-11-06T19:14:53Z turtleman_: but they are purely functional
2015-11-06T19:14:57Z wasamasa: hmk
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2015-11-06T19:15:33Z wasamasa: I don't quite get the write part then
2015-11-06T19:15:40Z turtleman_: they were inspired by clojure's PersistentVector
2015-11-06T19:15:43Z turtleman_: hmm
2015-11-06T19:15:45Z turtleman_: write is like
2015-11-06T19:15:53Z wasamasa: surely it would just be a case of returning a copy of that data structure with the element changed?
2015-11-06T19:16:12Z turtleman_: yes, but the original one stays
2015-11-06T19:16:17Z turtleman_: and you do it without copying the whole thing
2015-11-06T19:16:28Z turtleman_: its still expensive, O(sqrt(n)) as i said
2015-11-06T19:17:18Z turtleman_: for example
2015-11-06T19:17:26Z turtleman_: (cons value original-list)
2015-11-06T19:17:29Z turtleman_: doesnt change original-list
2015-11-06T19:17:54Z vanila: so your coordinates are pairs (x y)
2015-11-06T19:18:14Z vanila: if you stick to 0,1 instead of them being vectors of length n
2015-11-06T19:18:33Z vanila: then in d dimensions, you have binary strings of length d (x y z w ..)
2015-11-06T19:18:55Z turtleman_: vanila: im not sure what you mean
2015-11-06T19:19:06Z vanila: this is a binary trie
2015-11-06T19:19:12Z turtleman_: is it?
2015-11-06T19:19:35Z turtleman_: i thought tries were different
2015-11-06T19:19:37Z vanila: so it's related at least a bit to another data structure
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2015-11-06T19:25:57Z turtleman_: ok i think i understand what you are saying
2015-11-06T19:26:32Z turtleman_: if i use pairs instead of vectors, it turns into a binary trie
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2015-11-06T19:41:47Z cky: rudybot: (2 . + . 3)
2015-11-06T19:41:59Z rudybot: cky: error: with-limit: out of time
2015-11-06T19:41:59Z cky: rudybot: eval (2 . + . 3)
2015-11-06T19:42:00Z rudybot: cky: your sandbox is ready
2015-11-06T19:42:00Z rudybot: cky: ; Value: 5
2015-11-06T19:42:07Z cky: rudybot: (2 . + . 3)
2015-11-06T19:42:07Z rudybot: cky: ; Value: 5
2015-11-06T19:42:12Z cky: leppie: ^
2015-11-06T19:42:36Z cky: It does work, but you must have spaces around the dots; they use dotted list syntax.
2015-11-06T19:42:48Z wasamasa: wait, what
2015-11-06T19:43:12Z cky: wasamasa: Racket has an infix-like reader extension.
2015-11-06T19:43:23Z wasamasa rolls eyes
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2015-11-06T19:43:42Z wasamasa: this looks like an upside down face
2015-11-06T19:44:07Z cky: Lol.
2015-11-06T19:44:21Z cky: rudybot: (1 2 3 4 . list . 5 6 7 8)
2015-11-06T19:44:21Z rudybot: cky: ; Value: '(1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8)
2015-11-06T19:46:54Z cky: leppie: Re TCE, Guido makes a similar case to you that it should be applied to recursion only, but how do you detect mutual recursion? At some stage you just have to eliminate all tail calls.
2015-11-06T19:47:14Z leppie: rudybot: (map + . apply . '((1 2 3) (4 5 6)))
2015-11-06T19:47:14Z rudybot: leppie: ; Value: '(5 7 9)
2015-11-06T19:47:21Z cky: (That was not Guido's point, BTW. His point, rather, is that it's too hard to do in Python so he won't do it.)
2015-11-06T19:48:34Z leppie: cky: unles you have really good analysis, tail calls can never be avoided for mutual recursion
2015-11-06T19:48:59Z leppie: I wont both with that either
2015-11-06T19:49:31Z leppie: I dont have a few minutes to compile 'odd?' ;p
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2015-11-06T19:49:55Z cky: Actually, I'll let Guido speak for himself: http://neopythonic.blogspot.com/2009/04/final-words-on-tail-calls.html ;-)
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2015-11-06T19:50:56Z leppie: He makes good points, but unfortunately the JVM just does its own thing ;p
2015-11-06T19:52:01Z cky: Lol.
2015-11-06T19:52:17Z leppie: anyways, TCE is a really safe optimization you can apply to any language without losing debugging info (unless you really depend on the stack...)
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2015-11-06T20:37:47Z scoofy: what does it mean if a variable is 'bound' ?
2015-11-06T20:38:49Z turtleman_: it means the variable is defined when it is called
2015-11-06T20:39:49Z scoofy: what does it mean to 'call' a variable
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2015-11-06T20:56:14Z turtleman_: like
2015-11-06T20:56:23Z turtleman_: if i want to know the square root of a number
2015-11-06T20:56:30Z turtleman_: like sqrt(x)
2015-11-06T20:56:37Z turtleman_: i am calling x
2015-11-06T20:56:42Z turtleman_: x might be defined, x might not be defined
2015-11-06T20:56:52Z turtleman_: if x is defined, sqrt(x) will give me the answer
2015-11-06T20:57:08Z turtleman_: if x i undefined, then scheme will give me an error message saying "x is unbound"
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2015-11-06T21:02:06Z scoofy: so... bound == defined?
2015-11-06T21:03:39Z scoofy: so... how's set! different from define ?
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2015-11-06T21:03:59Z wasamasa: it's all semantics
2015-11-06T21:04:18Z scoofy: ?
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2015-11-06T21:05:45Z scoofy: do they do the same thing?
2015-11-06T21:05:52Z wasamasa: they shouldn't
2015-11-06T21:06:02Z scoofy: what's the difference?
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2015-11-06T21:06:36Z wasamasa: oh well, they do after all in this case
2015-11-06T21:06:51Z scoofy: so why have 2 different things to do the same?
2015-11-06T21:06:52Z wasamasa: depending on what you use, you're communicating a certain intent
2015-11-06T21:07:06Z scoofy: communicating to whom
2015-11-06T21:07:15Z wasamasa: "I define a thing to be bound to an initial value" vs. "I set a thing to this value"
2015-11-06T21:07:25Z wasamasa: scoofy: the reader of your code, whomever that may be
2015-11-06T21:07:35Z scoofy: (set! x 1) (define x 2)
2015-11-06T21:07:37Z scoofy: what happens
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2015-11-06T21:08:27Z scoofy: x became 2
2015-11-06T21:08:41Z scoofy: so it's not like, it becomes a constant after set! ..
2015-11-06T21:10:08Z leppie: you cont define something that is already defined, calling set! with iether error if x not defined or defined x depending on the context
2015-11-06T21:10:35Z wasamasa: leppie: that is not the case
2015-11-06T21:10:44Z wasamasa: leppie: in fact, I bet define expands to set!
2015-11-06T21:10:45Z scoofy: i tried in csi, and it gave no error
2015-11-06T21:11:13Z wasamasa: anyway, you shouldn't be relying on that
2015-11-06T21:11:40Z scoofy: what should I rely on then
2015-11-06T21:11:44Z leppie: wasamasa: In REPL all bets are off, so yes, set! normally defines at top level
2015-11-06T21:12:27Z wasamasa: scoofy: use define to define a top-level variable, use set! to alter its binding
2015-11-06T21:12:56Z leppie: but in a in sublexical scope, it will shadow the binding, in any context
2015-11-06T21:13:26Z scoofy: what if i use define to alter its binding agian
2015-11-06T21:13:49Z scoofy: i get no error
2015-11-06T21:13:52Z scoofy: so why do i neet set! then
2015-11-06T21:14:10Z leppie: scoofy: At top level in a REPL, it depends what the REPL does
2015-11-06T21:15:01Z leppie: your scheme could be luanching nuclear missiles, or poop rainbow farts
2015-11-06T21:15:13Z scoofy: unlikely
2015-11-06T21:15:33Z scoofy: you cannot define something that's already defined?
2015-11-06T21:15:38Z scoofy: i don't get it
2015-11-06T21:16:36Z leppie: rudybot: (let () (define x 1) (define x 2) x)
2015-11-06T21:16:36Z rudybot: leppie: error: eval:1:29: internal definition: duplicate binding name <NEWLINE>   at: x <NEWLINE>   in: (define-values (x) 2)
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2015-11-06T21:17:04Z scoofy: rudybot: (define x 1) (define x 2)
2015-11-06T21:17:04Z rudybot: scoofy: for things like (define (summator x) (+ 1 x) (+ 2 x))
2015-11-06T21:17:05Z leppie: rudybot: (begin (define x 1) (define x 2) x)
2015-11-06T21:17:05Z rudybot: leppie: ; Value: 2
2015-11-06T21:17:40Z scoofy: what is 'let'
2015-11-06T21:18:53Z scoofy: defines a scope?
2015-11-06T21:18:56Z leppie: go read the spec and come back
2015-11-06T21:19:21Z scoofy: nope
2015-11-06T21:19:32Z leppie: or any simple intro to scheme.
2015-11-06T21:19:48Z scoofy: why can't you just tell me what 'let' does?
2015-11-06T21:19:50Z leppie: let is the most basic form after lambda
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2015-11-06T21:22:21Z leppie: (let ((x 1)) x) == ((lambda (x) x) 1)
2015-11-06T21:22:49Z leppie: I cant explain it simpler
2015-11-06T21:24:08Z scoofy: 'lambda' means 'unnamed function' ?
2015-11-06T21:24:46Z leppie: pretty much if you want to call it that
2015-11-06T21:24:50Z scoofy: so (lambda (x) x) means unnamed function that takes argument x and returns x
2015-11-06T21:25:36Z scoofy: that, when called with argument '1', returns '1'.
2015-11-06T21:25:46Z leppie: you will probably find much better help in #clojure-beginners
2015-11-06T21:26:05Z scoofy: i'll checl.
2015-11-06T21:26:08Z leppie: it will help you with the basics of a lisp
2015-11-06T21:28:03Z scoofy: so many people on #clojure...
2015-11-06T21:28:56Z turtleman_: some implementations dont like if you define something twice
2015-11-06T21:29:07Z turtleman_: and all the implementations i have used dont let me set! something before defining
2015-11-06T21:29:12Z scoofy: is it a good idea to learn scheme by writing a scheme compiler?
2015-11-06T21:29:35Z turtleman_: most of the implementations, rather
2015-11-06T21:29:45Z leppie: scoofy: yes, that is how I learnt ;p
2015-11-06T21:30:52Z scoofy: what did you compile it to?
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2015-11-06T21:36:51Z scoofy: so yes let defines a local scope
2015-11-06T21:36:56Z scoofy: why didn't you just say 'yes'
2015-11-06T21:37:20Z scoofy: 22:18 < scoofy> defines a scope?
2015-11-06T21:37:58Z kephra: scoofy, define adds a new binding in the current scope, while set! changes its value
2015-11-06T21:38:20Z scoofy: what's the difference
2015-11-06T21:38:30Z scoofy: is value defined not per scope?
2015-11-06T21:38:38Z kephra: e.g. if you use define on top level, you add a binding to top level scope
2015-11-06T21:38:50Z kephra: but you can also use a define at the beginning of a lambda or a let
2015-11-06T21:39:01Z scoofy: and if inside (let) then it defines only inside that let body?
2015-11-06T21:39:02Z kephra: so you add those bindings to the scope of the lambda or let
2015-11-06T21:39:27Z scoofy: so... if there's a global definition with the same name, what happens?
2015-11-06T21:39:32Z kephra: so a set! inside such a lambda or let, will only affect the value that was bound in that scope
2015-11-06T21:39:43Z kephra: the global definition will be shadowed
2015-11-06T21:39:49Z scoofy: okay.
2015-11-06T21:40:01Z scoofy: and the global definition is not changed
2015-11-06T21:40:08Z kephra: yes
2015-11-06T21:40:12Z scoofy: ok.
2015-11-06T21:40:13Z kephra: its basically like
2015-11-06T21:40:22Z kephra: x = 2 ... (set! x 2)
2015-11-06T21:40:40Z kephra: var x = 2; ... (define x 2)
2015-11-06T21:41:09Z kephra: in javascript syntax *blush*
2015-11-06T21:41:11Z scoofy: if a variable is 'unbound' it means it is undefined?
2015-11-06T21:41:33Z kephra: it might be defined/bound in a different scope - but not now
2015-11-06T21:41:54Z scoofy: how can i 'unbind' something in a local scope? (that'd be, hiding the global definition if that exist)
2015-11-06T21:42:15Z kephra: a symbol is bound to a variable within a lexical environment ( I hope I got this correct ;-)
2015-11-06T21:42:29Z scoofy: cannot be undefined/unset?
2015-11-06T21:42:51Z kephra: r4rs does not provide undefine or defined?
2015-11-06T21:43:38Z scoofy: so i can't check if something is defined?
2015-11-06T21:44:25Z kephra: only implementation specific
2015-11-06T21:45:15Z scoofy: is there standards-defined exception handling?
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2015-11-06T21:46:33Z kephra: there is an srfi for exceptions - most typical implementation is using dynamic wind and escape continuations
2015-11-06T21:47:45Z kephra: but to my shame - the half dozen srfi's for error, conditions, exceptions, ... had been to confusing to me ... so, my implementation does not conform to srfi
2015-11-06T21:48:17Z scoofy: what is the name of your implementation?
2015-11-06T21:48:31Z kephra: o3db.com
2015-11-06T21:49:36Z scoofy: how long did it take to write the implementer?
2015-11-06T21:50:12Z scoofy: *interpreter
2015-11-06T21:55:17Z kephra: the first prototype in a nightshift
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2015-11-06T21:56:07Z kephra: then diligent work of about two month till completing R4RS regression test
2015-11-06T21:56:33Z scoofy: R4RS is the smallest standard?
2015-11-06T21:57:08Z kephra: had a pretty good flow at that time: about 3-4 days a week, about 4-5 hours early coding in the morning
2015-11-06T21:57:54Z scoofy: so about 160 hours
2015-11-06T21:58:20Z leppie: I have been developing IronScheme for 8 years
2015-11-06T21:58:35Z kephra: about 120 hours, I would say
2015-11-06T21:59:00Z scoofy: not bad
2015-11-06T21:59:25Z turtleman_: scoofy: r7rs has exception handling, and im pretty sure r6rs does too
2015-11-06T21:59:36Z leppie: but yes, if you know what you doing, you can do a proper scheme in about 200 hours
2015-11-06T21:59:55Z leppie: much less if you have prior experience
2015-11-06T22:00:07Z kephra: imho, r4rs has a regression test - everything above is pure handwaving
2015-11-06T22:00:42Z kephra would love if someone like Paul f. Dietz joins the scheme community
2015-11-06T22:00:57Z turtleman_: (error "context" "description") throws an error, i forget the exact guard syntax
2015-11-06T22:01:04Z turtleman_: guard is like try .. catch
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2015-11-06T22:04:43Z scoofy: what does (begin ...) do?
2015-11-06T22:05:40Z kephra: begin is a special form, that evals every form inside, but only returns the value of the last one
2015-11-06T22:05:54Z kephra: writing begin as a normal form, would destroy tail optimization
2015-11-06T22:06:19Z kephra: begin is !NOT! creating a new scope
2015-11-06T22:06:25Z scoofy: begin is for tailcalls?
2015-11-06T22:06:47Z leppie: begin splices in the define context and does sequential evaluation in the expression context
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2015-11-06T22:09:42Z kephra: scoofy, sorry for confusion - thing about begin comparing to { } in javascript ... they group statements, but they do not create a new scope
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2015-11-06T22:10:42Z kephra: begin is syntax and not a normal form, similar to { } ... this is an import implementation detail, when it comes to tail recursion
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2015-11-06T22:17:15Z scoofy: actually, { } creates new scope in C
2015-11-06T22:18:13Z scoofy: what is the difference between 'syntax' and 'normal form' ?
2015-11-06T22:18:23Z leppie: scoofy: same thing, new scope, you can define the same name to shadow a variable
2015-11-06T22:19:38Z scoofy: and what's this craze about tail-recursion? they didn't like loops? o...
2015-11-06T22:19:46Z scoofy: or...
2015-11-06T22:20:07Z leppie: you dont need loops if you have proper tail recursion
2015-11-06T22:20:31Z scoofy: what is the advantage?
2015-11-06T22:20:43Z scoofy: isn't that more complicated to implement?
2015-11-06T22:21:25Z leppie: when compiled, it is the same thing :p  that is the beauty of implementing your own scheme
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2015-11-06T22:21:50Z scoofy: how does the compiler know, if it's gonna be tail recursion?
2015-11-06T22:22:04Z leppie: only 'complication' is to detect it, which is pretty easy
2015-11-06T22:22:04Z scoofy: or regular recursion
2015-11-06T22:22:15Z scoofy: how is that done?
2015-11-06T22:23:18Z leppie: when you implement it, it becomes clear ;p
2015-11-06T22:23:28Z kephra: leppie, ;-)
2015-11-06T22:24:13Z leppie: it is not obvious initially, but that is one of the first optimization you 'discover' ;p
2015-11-06T22:24:20Z scoofy: what's the differende between begin and let, if both create a new scope?
2015-11-06T22:24:30Z kephra: leppie, I guess the design of an implementation shines or fails at two points: is it trivial or impossible to implement tail optimization and current continuations
2015-11-06T22:24:55Z kephra: scoofy, begin does !NOT! create a new scope!!!
2015-11-06T22:25:07Z kephra: begin is like JavaScript {} not like C {}
2015-11-06T22:25:13Z scoofy: no? leppie said it does.
2015-11-06T22:26:02Z leppie: kephra: depends on the underlying runtime. in my case, the .NET CLR support tail calls out of the box, but preventing them gives you a lot more speed
2015-11-06T22:26:21Z scoofy: sounds like bad for performance
2015-11-06T22:27:10Z leppie: I said begin creates a new scope?
2015-11-06T22:27:44Z leppie: I was refering to { } in C
2015-11-06T22:28:15Z scoofy: so what does begin do then?
2015-11-06T22:28:38Z leppie: the same as siad earlier
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2015-11-06T22:29:27Z scoofy: <leppie> when compiled, it is the same thing :p  that is the beauty of implementing your own scheme
2015-11-06T22:29:35Z leppie: (begin (define (x 1)) (define y 2)) splices
2015-11-06T22:29:35Z scoofy: eh. not this one
2015-11-06T22:30:13Z scoofy: splices?
2015-11-06T22:30:18Z leppie: (begin 1 2) evaluates sequentially
2015-11-06T22:30:40Z scoofy: normally, evaluation order is undefined?
2015-11-06T22:30:52Z leppie: splices is like (begin (define (x 1)) (define y 2)) is the same as (define (x 1)) (define y 2) in the context
2015-11-06T22:31:27Z scoofy: i'm not fully sure i get what you mean
2015-11-06T22:31:30Z kephra: leppie, I guess a define within a begin is illegal in many Schemes ... most only allow define at top level of a repl, load, or library, and the beginning of a lambda, or let
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2015-11-06T22:31:58Z wasamasa: a define within a define works, too
2015-11-06T22:32:06Z kephra: true, wasamasa !
2015-11-06T22:32:08Z leppie: kephra: defines in a begin is commonly used in macros
2015-11-06T22:32:44Z Riastradh: rudybot: eval (lambda () (begin (define x 5) (define y 3)) (+ x y))
2015-11-06T22:32:45Z rudybot: Riastradh: your sandbox is ready
2015-11-06T22:32:45Z rudybot: Riastradh: ; Value: #<procedure>
2015-11-06T22:32:47Z Riastradh: rudybot: eval ((lambda () (begin (define x 5) (define y 3)) (+ x y)))
2015-11-06T22:32:47Z rudybot: Riastradh: ; Value: 8
2015-11-06T22:33:07Z leppie: (let () (begin (define (x 1)) (define y 2)) x) == (let () (define (x 1)) (define y 2) x)
2015-11-06T22:33:53Z leppie: oops, syntax error
2015-11-06T22:34:00Z leppie: but you get the point
2015-11-06T22:35:01Z kephra: those work, because the defines are still at the begin of the lambda or let
2015-11-06T22:35:28Z kephra: put an (if #t (begin ...) ('lol)) ... and it should fail
2015-11-06T22:35:55Z leppie: kephra: no
2015-11-06T22:36:14Z leppie: that is how cond is defined
2015-11-06T22:36:56Z scoofy: so is 'begin' sytax
2015-11-06T22:37:01Z scoofy: syntax
2015-11-06T22:37:08Z kephra: rudybot: eval (if #t (begin (define foo 2) (* foo foo)) ('lol))
2015-11-06T22:37:08Z rudybot: kephra: your sandbox is ready
2015-11-06T22:37:08Z rudybot: kephra: error: eval:1:14: define: not allowed in an expression context <NEWLINE>   in: (define foo 2)
2015-11-06T22:37:33Z wasamasa: duh
2015-11-06T22:37:43Z leppie: That is silly racket...
2015-11-06T22:38:24Z leppie: or maybe not ;p
2015-11-06T22:38:51Z leppie: not sure why that is limited
2015-11-06T22:39:11Z kephra: Riastradh's example worked, because begin is syntax - so begin is not really there, and the define is directly at the start of scope of the lambda
2015-11-06T22:39:13Z leppie: but it is...
2015-11-06T22:39:52Z leppie: if it becomes an issue, just wrap it in a let
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2015-11-06T22:44:00Z leppie: rudybot: (if #t (let () (begin (define foo 2) (* foo foo))) ('lol))
2015-11-06T22:44:00Z rudybot: leppie: ; Value: 4
2015-11-06T22:44:15Z leppie: or
2015-11-06T22:44:28Z leppie: rudybot: (if #t (let () (define foo 2) (* foo foo)) ('lol))
2015-11-06T22:44:28Z rudybot: leppie: ; Value: 4
2015-11-06T22:44:38Z kephra: you can drop the begin here, leppie
2015-11-06T22:45:06Z leppie: kephra: showing splicing for scoofy
2015-11-06T22:45:09Z leppie: ;p
2015-11-06T22:45:35Z scoofy: i have no idea what it means
2015-11-06T22:45:38Z scoofy: but thanks for trying
2015-11-06T22:45:48Z kephra: ;-)
2015-11-06T22:46:00Z leppie: rudybot: (if #t (let () (begin (define foo 2)) (* foo foo)) ('lol))
2015-11-06T22:46:00Z rudybot: leppie: ; Value: 4
2015-11-06T22:46:16Z leppie: maybe now!
2015-11-06T22:46:29Z leppie: spot the difference
2015-11-06T22:48:27Z scoofy: gotta go...
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2015-11-06T22:57:54Z sytse: kephra: the design of an implementation might even be more amazing, if it's also trivial to implement -inward- continuation calling.. with some kind of cool smooth parallel processing support added to that, of course :]
2015-11-06T22:58:39Z sytse: kephra: ie, the ability to return many times from the same place, and have two-way guard support
2015-11-06T22:59:14Z sytse: I doubt that's possible without some sacrifice though.. :/
2015-11-06T22:59:39Z kephra: sytse, the call-cc primitive in my implementation is just a handful lines
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2015-11-06T23:00:36Z kephra: call-ec is a bit more complicated, as it has to guard itself against wrong use - but has the benefit of a much lower memory footprint
2015-11-06T23:01:19Z ec: sytse: two-way guard?
2015-11-06T23:01:28Z ec: (also yes hi ec here how can I help you)
2015-11-06T23:01:36Z sytse: so to be a little bit more clear: you allow the capturing of the current continuation in a variable, then returning one value; and then, as many times as you want, calling that continuation again, which returns another value from the same call stack as when you captured the continuation
2015-11-06T23:03:18Z ec: sytse: I've got an old PLT effort that's basically built on that concept.
2015-11-06T23:03:23Z sytse: in other words, guards would go the other way: instead of bypassing the normal return, you bypass the normal entry
2015-11-06T23:03:41Z sytse: so you guard against abnormal entry
2015-11-06T23:04:30Z sytse: I'm going to need to implement this in a little while, as I'm making a (decent, in contrast to the other 'implementations' out there) Kernel implementation
2015-11-06T23:04:33Z ec: something wherein instead of (ruby-syntax) `foo.for_each { print }`, you can just do `print (foo.each)`
2015-11-06T23:05:58Z sytse: the report pdf on http://web.cs.wpi.edu/~jshutt/kernel.html has an operative for guarding in two directions
2015-11-06T23:06:19Z ec: (not because of any Enumerable-type thingy, because the implementation of ‘each’ can return multiple times)
2015-11-06T23:08:13Z sytse: it's really only going to work truly decently with garbage collected stacks though, I'm afraid, which I don't want to make the default
2015-11-06T23:08:51Z sytse: ec: heh.
2015-11-06T23:10:05Z sytse: ec: that seems like syntax sugar though, mostly.. at least in this case that's just the same as returning some kind of enumeration type and having print accept that type
2015-11-06T23:10:53Z ec: well, it's an *effect* of a completely different evaluation model
2015-11-06T23:11:20Z ec: and I would posit that not having to do any sort of abstraction to preform ‘multiple’-tasks like that is a useful feature, syntax quite aside
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2015-11-06T23:14:39Z ec: I consider it a little like the difference between having first-class futures in the implementation; vs ‘faking’ them as i.e. promises, and having to wrap effects in callbacks
2015-11-06T23:15:00Z sytse: sure. What I'm thinking of though, is more like (display (first-value)), where first-value say, retrieves something from the network, then having first-value write a continuation into a variable, that 'do-next-value' has access to, so that after that you can run (do-next-value) and it will call display again
2015-11-06T23:15:38Z ec nods
2015-11-06T23:16:09Z sytse: kernel has support for that (and there is a half-decent interpreter out there that does support this afaik, although I haven't tested that)
2015-11-06T23:17:26Z sytse: kernel is kind of crazy in terms of performance if it's implemented with a pure, dumb interpreter
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2015-11-06T23:17:44Z sytse: uh, that sentence needs a 'but' at the start
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2015-11-07T19:27:56Z xyh: that is common to function has prefix 'call-with-' ?
2015-11-07T19:28:45Z xyh: * what is common to function has prefix 'call-with-' ?
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2015-11-07T19:56:41Z pjb: xyh: your syntax is incorrect, and makes it impossible to know how to interpret your question; several meanings could be assigned.
2015-11-07T20:03:52Z ecraven: xyh: most "call-with-..." are functions that take a function of one parameter as its argument, then call that function with something (depending on ...)
2015-11-07T20:05:41Z xyh: :P
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2015-11-07T20:38:46Z pjb: Are you asking "what are some common functions having the "call-with-" prefix?"  or "what is the common characteristic shared by functions having the "call-with-" prefix?" or something else?
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2015-11-07T22:25:55Z strtok: rudybot: desc cdr
2015-11-07T22:25:55Z rudybot: strtok: your sandbox is ready
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2015-11-08T00:23:35Z csguest__: hello
2015-11-08T00:24:18Z csguest__: can someone please help me with this assignment? I have tried drawing diagrams but still have yet to be able to find a solution. All my attempts have been so convoluted I am sure they would be wrong
2015-11-08T00:24:40Z csguest__: http://pastebin.com/1GDJ7KRY
2015-11-08T00:25:42Z csguest__: I need to implement frequency sort
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2015-11-09T03:19:42Z blitznuggets: if i read sicp will it help me catch up to speed in comp sci? will it give me solid foundation?
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2015-11-09T07:46:20Z wasamasa: reading sicp will give you a solid trolling foundation
2015-11-09T07:57:18Z LilSusieCrabCake: wasamasa, Basically, because you'll realize how shitty of a book it is and piss a bunch of zealots off when you tell the truth about it.
2015-11-09T07:58:10Z LilSusieCrabCake: Honestly, I can think of few programming books that are worse. Maybe the "Teach Yourself X in 24 hours" books ... but that's a pretty low bar.
2015-11-09T08:05:55Z pjb: Happily blitznuggets' gone.
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2015-11-09T08:29:59Z C-Keen: The first error is categoriying it as a programming book ;)
2015-11-09T08:30:05Z C-Keen: s,y,z,
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2015-11-09T14:24:49Z samth: wingo returns!
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2015-11-09T14:50:57Z samth: wingo: i mostly wanted to say that your blog post at least 50% persuaded me to stop trying to convert you ;)
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2015-11-09T14:56:58Z jcowan: samth:  What were you trying to convert him to?
2015-11-09T14:57:03Z jcowan: (I'm curious)
2015-11-09T14:57:14Z samth: jcowan: i'll give you one guess ... :)
2015-11-09T14:57:34Z jcowan: Racket?
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2015-11-09T14:58:44Z samth: jcowan: i knew my faith in you wasn't misplaced
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2015-11-09T15:02:40Z zwdr: which blog post?
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2015-11-09T15:56:44Z wingo: samth: :) it is not a lost cause entirely, and in the near term i hope guile has the hackpower to spread racket's great ideas and code, but for now i do enjoy the compiler side of things :)
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2015-11-09T15:58:35Z samth: wingo: i enjoy reading about your compiler hacking, so i can't complain
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2015-11-10T12:18:22Z r4pha: i'm working through sicp (surprise...) and I'm studying scheme streams. From what I understand, streams in scheme are memoized, so we avoid potential complexity by using precomputed values. That's cool, but it means the precomputed stream elements are going to be kept in memory, as oposed to, say, generators in python. Is there a nice way of handling "generators" in scheme?
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2015-11-10T12:50:25Z wingo: r4pha: they are going to be kept in memory as long as you reference their values
2015-11-10T12:50:47Z wingo: so if you don't want to keep a whole sequence alive be sure to not keep a reference to the head of the stream
2015-11-10T12:59:47Z r4pha: wingo: that makes sense. Thanks :)
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2015-11-10T13:25:32Z mobius-eng: Hi all! I have a problem with cf procedure of mit-scheme
2015-11-10T13:27:07Z mobius-eng: Problem: how to tell cf in which environment to compile the file? Particularly, if I define macros even in user-initial-environment and the file uses them, cf will not see them as macros
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2015-11-10T15:28:53Z mobius-eng: is there anybody here who uses mit-scheme?
2015-11-10T15:31:47Z taylan: Riastradh is the maintainer.  not here ATM but usually visits every day.
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2015-11-10T15:35:00Z mobius-eng: taylan thanks!
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2015-11-10T15:35:49Z mobius-eng: is there official repository for mit-scheme? I am struggling to find it: I only can see some rather old git (fork?)
2015-11-10T15:36:55Z taylan: apparently git://git.savannah.gnu.org/mit-scheme.git  found indirectly through http://gnu.org/s/mit-scheme
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2015-11-10T15:40:16Z mobius-eng: Thanks, also got into it. Somehow I missed the link on http://gnu.org/s/mit-scheme ... Sorry for the stupid question
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2015-11-11T04:28:49Z strtok: rudybot: +(1 2)
2015-11-11T04:28:50Z rudybot: strtok: [2] Emacs: (global-font-lock-mode 1) in .emacs,
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2015-11-11T04:50:07Z nchambers: I thought rudybot was a racketbot?
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2015-11-11T11:10:25Z m1dnight_: Does anybody happen to know the name of the concept where you only allow variable names to be passed as function arguments? so (f (g 1 2)) would be disallowed?
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2015-11-11T16:22:00Z pjb: m1dnight_: that would be passing the argument by reference.
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2015-11-11T16:43:57Z pjb: m1dnight_: or perhaps what you want is some kind of normalized data flow.  You'd have to look for some compiler code generation terminology
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2015-11-11T17:54:47Z cagmz: I have an assignment that states, "Implement a scheme program that takes two items from the input:  an arbitrary function of one variable, and a list,". What is the preferred way to get input in scheme?
2015-11-11T17:55:24Z cagmz: it states to use eval like this: "(eval funct (scheme-report-environment 5))" . So should I use "read" to get input?
2015-11-11T17:56:07Z kephra: likely, cagmz
2015-11-11T18:01:55Z NeverDie_: Can someone here be my scheme sensei?
2015-11-11T18:01:58Z NeverDie_ is now known as NeveriDie
2015-11-11T18:02:03Z NeveriDie is now known as NeverDie
2015-11-11T18:02:18Z NeverDie: Trying to learn it atm and I'm pretty lost.
2015-11-11T18:02:19Z jcowan: The assignment is ill-posed, because there is no way to read a procedure from the input, only (a) the name of a procedure or (b) code for a procedure.
2015-11-11T18:03:06Z jcowan: The use of "function" and the failure to recognize this suggests that whoever wrote the assignment had a limited grasp of Scheme.  Not that that helps you any.
2015-11-11T18:03:24Z jcowan: NeverDie:  I'm free atm and may be able to help
2015-11-11T18:03:29Z jcowan: Ask away
2015-11-11T18:03:49Z NeverDie: At this specific second I'm not doing any coding, but I meant just a mentor that could look over my shoulders on what I do.
2015-11-11T18:04:04Z NeverDie: I installed scheme into my computer, but I'm kind of lost as to how to start building things.
2015-11-11T18:04:43Z soegaard: cagmz: “from the input” is that verbatim?
2015-11-11T18:05:21Z cagmz: yes soegaard . We have a lab tomorrow but I'm studying ahead of time, but I can just wait until tomorrow and ask to be sure
2015-11-11T18:05:43Z cagmz: got this so far: (define (get-function) (read)) (display (get-function) )
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2015-11-11T18:06:10Z jcowan: NeverDie:  Which Scheme
2015-11-11T18:06:18Z NeverDie: I guess the regular one.
2015-11-11T18:06:30Z NeverDie: MIT/GNU Scheme.
2015-11-11T18:08:45Z jcowan: Okay, that's fine.  (I have about 50 Schemes installed on my computer, but I'm a special case.)
2015-11-11T18:09:52Z jcowan: Scheme has not, historically, been much of a "batteries included" language, so you are going to start out building very low-level things.  This is not an attempt to waste your time, but to get you on a certain way of thinking about things without being distracted by the Big Picture.
2015-11-11T18:10:23Z NeverDie: 0_0
2015-11-11T18:10:26Z mario-goulart: NeverDie: scheme is a language which has a versioned specification (RnRS, where n is currently 7) and multiple implementations (that usually support one or more versions of the specification).
2015-11-11T18:10:31Z NeverDie: Yeah I want to learn Scheme to be a better programmer.
2015-11-11T18:10:51Z NeverDie: Brb one quick second, just need to put my clothes in the dryer, but I'll keep reading!
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2015-11-11T18:14:07Z mario-goulart: cagmz: the assignment specification is pretty bad.  "Input" is a bit vague.  I don't really understand what a "function of one variable" means (I'd guess it's a procedure which accepts one argument).  What to do with the input?
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2015-11-11T18:14:43Z cagmz: mario-goulart, the function should be applied to every element of the list and the result displayed on the terminal
2015-11-11T18:15:22Z cagmz: is it possible to read a list from input without knowing how long it is? or do I need to recieve the # of elements that the list will contain and keep a counter?
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2015-11-11T18:16:56Z mario-goulart: cagmz: you could start your program with (display (read)) to see how things would work from there.
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2015-11-11T18:17:39Z mario-goulart: The user input would be something like (1 2 3)
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2015-11-11T18:18:36Z taylan: NeverDie: if you also want to use Scheme for practical purposes and not just pedagogic, you might want to get into the community of a more actively maintained/improved Scheme implementation, such as Guile, Racket, or Chicken
2015-11-11T18:18:40Z taylan: https://wingolog.org/archives/2013/01/07/an-opinionated-guide-to-scheme-implementations
2015-11-11T18:18:41Z rudybot: http://teensy.info/sbR7vrszxw
2015-11-11T18:19:41Z taylan: my choice is GNU Guile, since I strongly agree with the free software ideals of the FSF and the GNU project
2015-11-11T18:19:43Z NeverDie: Back.
2015-11-11T18:19:58Z NeverDie: taylan: Should I pick Guile or Racket?
2015-11-11T18:20:18Z NeverDie: I've seen Racket before. I thought it was its own programming language, not a version of Scheme.
2015-11-11T18:20:35Z taylan: these implementations each vastly improve on or even deviate from standard Scheme in their own ways, i.e. they're all "batteries included" in their own ways
2015-11-11T18:20:48Z taylan: Racket is probably the most "batteries included" one, with the biggest community...
2015-11-11T18:20:57Z mario-goulart: NeverDie: Racket is a language, but it happens to also implement Scheme.
2015-11-11T18:21:10Z NeverDie: mario-goulart: In which sense?
2015-11-11T18:21:16Z taylan: the "racket" language implemented by Racket deviates from standard Scheme but is very very close anyway
2015-11-11T18:21:19Z NeverDie: So the MIT/GNU scheme probably isn't a great way to start?
2015-11-11T18:21:21Z wasamasa: NeverDie: racket is a platform for developing languages
2015-11-11T18:21:29Z NeverDie: Developing languages?
2015-11-11T18:21:37Z wasamasa: NeverDie: the broadly accepted one looks very much like scheme, but there's others hosted on it
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2015-11-11T18:21:45Z taylan: Racket (as a platform) also implements various other languages.  e.g. it can also run strictly standards-compliant Scheme code.
2015-11-11T18:21:52Z NeverDie: And where could I find Guile?
2015-11-11T18:22:03Z taylan: https://gnu.org/software/guile
2015-11-11T18:22:03Z NeverDie: http://www.gnu.org/software/guile/
2015-11-11T18:22:04Z NeverDie: This?
2015-11-11T18:22:09Z taylan: yup
2015-11-11T18:22:19Z taylan: and #guile.  (there's also #racket and #chicken for those.)
2015-11-11T18:22:34Z NeverDie: Yeah I'm in #racket.
2015-11-11T18:22:43Z NeverDie: Didn't really know much about #guile.
2015-11-11T18:23:01Z NeverDie: Hmm, which do you guys recommend?
2015-11-11T18:23:06Z NeverDie: Since I'm also learning Haskell as well.
2015-11-11T18:23:18Z NeverDie: I want to stick to one flavor of Scheme.
2015-11-11T18:23:37Z taylan: if you're learning Scheme for purely pedagogic reasons, maybe Racket is the best way to go
2015-11-11T18:23:37Z mario-goulart: For learning, whatever you pick would be good.
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2015-11-11T18:24:29Z taylan: but indeed, best just pick what seems to suit you best.
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2015-11-11T18:25:09Z NeverDie: I'm learning for purely pedagogic reasons.
2015-11-11T18:25:25Z NeverDie: So I'm guessing Racket will be the way to go? It has the same syntax or does its syntax vary?
2015-11-11T18:26:08Z mario-goulart: If you want to learn Scheme using Racket, you'll have to tell Racket that you want to use Scheme.
2015-11-11T18:26:33Z NeverDie: So there's Racket-Racket and Racket-Scheme or something?
2015-11-11T18:26:48Z mario-goulart: I don't know exactly how it works, but I'm sure Racket users here or in #racket will help you out with that.
2015-11-11T18:27:31Z mario-goulart: Racket is one language, Scheme is another language.  The Racket runtime is able to understand both, as long as you specify which one you are using.
2015-11-11T18:27:56Z wasamasa: #lang r5rs
2015-11-11T18:27:59Z NeverDie: Ah.
2015-11-11T18:27:59Z wasamasa: #lang racket
2015-11-11T18:28:11Z NeverDie: So I'm guessing I should just stick to Guile-Scheme then?
2015-11-11T18:28:21Z wasamasa: you can specify the language at the top of the file
2015-11-11T18:28:30Z NeverDie: Seems like a more straightforward way to go.
2015-11-11T18:28:33Z wasamasa: it goes for racket by default
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2015-11-11T18:29:33Z mario-goulart: Anyone will do.  If you are comfortable with MIT, it is ok too.
2015-11-11T18:29:47Z wasamasa: the benefit of guile would be that it has the best emacs support
2015-11-11T18:29:58Z mario-goulart: Just be aware that in Racket you have to specify the Scheme language, otherwise it'll think you are using Racket the language.
2015-11-11T18:30:01Z wasamasa: mit-scheme is what was originally used for the SICP course
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2015-11-11T18:30:37Z NeverDie: Ah. Hmm, I now seem to be divided between Guile and Racket.
2015-11-11T18:30:56Z mario-goulart: Try both. :-)
2015-11-11T18:31:05Z NeverDie: Already have my hands full lol.
2015-11-11T18:31:10Z mario-goulart: And pick the one yo like better. :-)
2015-11-11T18:31:12Z wasamasa: find one you like and stick with it
2015-11-11T18:31:47Z mario-goulart: NeverDie: I understand you.  The initial steps with scheme can be very confusing, because of the diversity.
2015-11-11T18:32:02Z NeverDie: Yeah I didn't expect it to be this diverse.
2015-11-11T18:32:23Z wasamasa: that's the nature of scheme
2015-11-11T18:32:49Z NeverDie: Which is why I was hoping for someone to hopefully mentor me through it.
2015-11-11T18:32:50Z mario-goulart: For pedagogical things, pretty much any of the bigger ones will do the trick.  The choice for practical projects requires more criteria.
2015-11-11T18:33:02Z wasamasa: it's relatively simple to roll your own, so there are many of them
2015-11-11T18:33:38Z mario-goulart: s/roll your own/roll your toy one, which won't have all the basic Scheme features/
2015-11-11T18:33:46Z mario-goulart: :-)
2015-11-11T18:34:56Z mario-goulart: Properly implementing Scheme is quite hard.
2015-11-11T18:34:56Z NeverDie: Hmm, I see.
2015-11-11T18:35:18Z NeverDie: Would any of you guys happen to be from NYC?
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2015-11-11T18:35:38Z jcowan_: I live there.
2015-11-11T18:35:48Z NeverDie: jcowan_: Cool, which part?
2015-11-11T18:35:55Z NeverDie: I'm from Midtown Manhattan.
2015-11-11T18:36:15Z jcowan_: ATM I am in Beth Israel, but I live on the Lower East Side and work a few blocks from here.
2015-11-11T18:36:40Z NeverDie: No kidding, you work as a programmer?
2015-11-11T18:36:41Z mario-goulart: NeverDie: http://www.lispnyc.org/meetings
2015-11-11T18:36:46Z jcowan_: Yes
2015-11-11T18:37:06Z jcowan_: I definitely recommend LispNYC.  Great speakeers, good pizza, wonderful helpful people.
2015-11-11T18:37:08Z NeverDie: jcowan_: That's awesome, I'm currently looking for a job as a dev.
2015-11-11T18:37:17Z jcowan_: What's your background?
2015-11-11T18:37:42Z NeverDie: Self-taught basically. http://radiux.io/ is my personal website.
2015-11-11T18:37:55Z NeverDie: I've been teaching myself computer science and Haskell, along now with Scheme.
2015-11-11T18:38:02Z NeverDie: And JavaScript.
2015-11-11T18:38:07Z jcowan_ is now known as jcowan
2015-11-11T18:38:51Z jcowan: Okay, you come from JavaScript, which is a good place to start from, not so much to unlearn.
2015-11-11T18:38:58Z mario-goulart: :-D
2015-11-11T18:39:19Z NeverDie: Well that and Haskell has been molding my way of thinking as well as of late.
2015-11-11T18:39:33Z NeverDie: I figured JS was a bad place to start, but it seems high in demand, so meh.
2015-11-11T18:40:06Z NeverDie: Haskell and Scheme are just for my insatiable curiosity and wanting to get better at everything.
2015-11-11T18:40:18Z jcowan: You should probably read JavaScript: The Good Parts
2015-11-11T18:40:37Z NeverDie: I've been going through Kyle Simpson's stuff on JS.
2015-11-11T18:40:39Z mario-goulart: It's pretty short, as you might have guessed. :-)
2015-11-11T18:41:04Z mario-goulart trolls
2015-11-11T18:41:07Z jcowan: mario-goulart:  "How long should a man's legs be?"  "Long enough to reach the ground."
2015-11-11T18:41:20Z mario-goulart: :-D
2015-11-11T18:41:25Z NeverDie: jcowan: What does your company use in their stack?
2015-11-11T18:41:40Z jcowan: Python, JS, and JS generated in Python sometimes.
2015-11-11T18:42:17Z NeverDie: Are you guys hiring and Junior devs by any chance? I've been wanting to learn Python as well.
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2015-11-11T18:46:09Z jcowan: Unfortunately no.  We are a very small shop and basically need only people with lots of programming experience (though not necessarily Python)
2015-11-11T18:46:47Z zwdr: I'm kinda put off by Python not having real lambda expressions
2015-11-11T18:47:20Z LeoNerd: Python also doesn't have real closures or real mutable captures either
2015-11-11T18:47:26Z LeoNerd: You'll be quite disappointed from a Scheme perspective
2015-11-11T18:47:36Z zwdr: mmmh!
2015-11-11T18:48:13Z zwdr: well, it was one of the first language I learned, but seeing it now
2015-11-11T18:48:26Z zwdr: its not bad by any means, I guess I just like other kind of languages
2015-11-11T18:51:11Z jcowan: Python has real lambdas, they are just written 'def'.  The question of anonymity is trivial.  The lack of closures is more serious, but again objects are poor man's closures, and this is quite explicit in Python.
2015-11-11T18:51:19Z NeverDie: Ah. So that's why you mean JS is a better place to start because it has those things?
2015-11-11T18:51:35Z NeverDie: I mean it has closures, not so sure on lambdas.
2015-11-11T18:51:48Z NeverDie: Lambas by definition as anon functions right?
2015-11-11T18:51:51Z jcowan: JavaScript is what a Schemer comes up with when he has one week to invent a language and it can't look like Scheme.
2015-11-11T18:51:52Z NeverDie: Are anon*
2015-11-11T18:51:59Z LeoNerd: It doesn't do mutable capture on closures, though.    x = 1;  def incr(): x += 1;  incr();  print x
2015-11-11T18:52:17Z jcowan: LeoNerd:  It = Python?
2015-11-11T18:52:20Z LeoNerd: Yah
2015-11-11T18:52:43Z NeverDie: Mutable capture?
2015-11-11T18:52:51Z jcowan: Sure, you have to use objects and their properties, which as the Lord of the Lambda poem tells us are the same thing.
2015-11-11T18:53:31Z LeoNerd: Python also has a rather amusing idea of scope.   funcs = [lambda _: x for x in range(5)]   vals = [f() for f in funcs]  print vals
2015-11-11T18:53:41Z jcowan: [[[
2015-11-11T18:53:42Z jcowan: Data and procedures and the values they amass,
2015-11-11T18:53:43Z jcowan: Higher-order functions to combine and mix and match,
2015-11-11T18:53:43Z jcowan: Objects with their local state, the messages they pass,
2015-11-11T18:53:43Z jcowan: A property, a package, the control point for a catch–
2015-11-11T18:53:43Z jcowan: In the Lambda Order they are all first-class.
2015-11-11T18:53:44Z jcowan: One Thing to name them all, One Thing to define them,
2015-11-11T18:53:46Z LeoNerd: You'll be amused (perhaps) to see it print 4 4 4 4 4  rather than  0 1 2 3 4
2015-11-11T18:53:48Z jcowan: One Thing to place them in environments and bind them,
2015-11-11T18:53:50Z jcowan: In the Lambda order they are all first-class.
2015-11-11T18:53:52Z jcowan: ]]]
2015-11-11T18:54:13Z zwdr: heh
2015-11-11T18:54:15Z LeoNerd: 5 lambdas created there, all share the -same- x
2015-11-11T18:54:21Z LeoNerd: The same x that now retains its final value
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2015-11-11T18:54:34Z NeverDie: Still don't fully understand what a lambda is.
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2015-11-11T18:55:08Z jcowan: An anonymous function whose mutable variables are closed over
2015-11-11T18:56:02Z mario-goulart: LeoNerd: I _think_ that's been fixed in Python 3.
2015-11-11T18:56:40Z LeoNerd: How about for loops?
2015-11-11T18:56:53Z LeoNerd: I'd write one but python syntax isn't ameniable to discussion on IRC, what with its many required linebreaks
2015-11-11T18:56:56Z mario-goulart: for loops don't create a closure
2015-11-11T18:57:01Z LeoNerd: Indeed...
2015-11-11T18:57:34Z mario-goulart: That's why in Python 2 list comprehensions didn't create  a closure.  They were supposed to mimic for loops.
2015-11-11T18:57:40Z LeoNerd: My usual solution to that is to have a 'body' function directly inside the for loop and immediately invoke it passing in the loop's control variable, so that the body of the loop does become its own scope
2015-11-11T18:57:59Z LeoNerd: It's almost like the language doesn't appreciate closures or scopes... ;)
2015-11-11T18:59:11Z mario-goulart: Python 3 is much saner, I think.
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2015-11-11T18:59:29Z LeoNerd: Does anything other than a function create a new scope in Python 3?
2015-11-11T18:59:33Z mario-goulart: But admittedly I don't really know much about it.
2015-11-11T18:59:42Z LeoNerd: Does Python 3 have syntax for declaring a variable distinct from updating the value of an existing one?
2015-11-11T18:59:47Z mario-goulart: There's the nonlocal declaration, at least. :-)
2015-11-11T18:59:50Z LeoNerd: .. for that matter, does Python 3 have variables full stop?
2015-11-11T19:00:08Z mario-goulart: Everything is local, unless declared as nonlocal or global.
2015-11-11T19:00:12Z LeoNerd: Yes I saw nonlocal.. that strikes me a rather amusing inversion of the usual solution :)
2015-11-11T19:01:18Z mario-goulart: Better than explicitly requiring the local declaration, I think.  Traditionally, "scripting" languages assume that if you forgot to declare something as local, it's global (javascript, shell etc).
2015-11-11T19:01:29Z mario-goulart: That's worse, IMO.
2015-11-11T19:01:32Z LeoNerd: Yes, but that's generally terrible
2015-11-11T19:01:38Z mario-goulart: lua is also like that, IIRC.
2015-11-11T19:01:41Z LeoNerd: real languages have learned that's a silly thing to do
2015-11-11T19:01:52Z LeoNerd: Consider  use strict;   :)
2015-11-11T19:02:01Z mario-goulart: ... as a string. :-)
2015-11-11T19:02:09Z LeoNerd: ... yes that was a particularly amusing idea of JS I think
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2015-11-11T19:02:15Z mario-goulart: :-)
2015-11-11T19:02:32Z LeoNerd: "Oh balls we can't add new syntax to make pragmatic declarations to the compiler.. er.. um.. lets just put strings in void context at the start"
2015-11-11T19:02:45Z mario-goulart: After I learned that comments in js are code, I lost any hope left.
2015-11-11T19:02:49Z LeoNerd: Better late then never I suppose
2015-11-11T19:04:31Z mario-goulart: :-)
2015-11-11T19:04:52Z soegaard: LeoNerd: Well - I have seen people use the same trick in Scheme for “docstrings”.   (define (fact n) “this is a factorial function”   code-starts-here)
2015-11-11T19:05:00Z LeoNerd: Mmmm
2015-11-11T19:05:03Z mario-goulart: #t
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2015-11-11T19:07:24Z mario-goulart: In that case, the "comment" doesn't produce any side effect, and it is not used as a declaration.  Compilers would probably consider that a noop.
2015-11-11T19:07:32Z jcowan: JS has a worse installed-base problem than any other language anywhere, ever.  I think "use strict"; is actually a pretty reasonable solution.
2015-11-11T19:07:49Z jcowan: After all, it *is* only a pragma.
2015-11-11T19:08:19Z soegaard: mario-goulart: Which is the same way “strict;” works in a JavaScript without strict support.
2015-11-11T19:09:03Z mario-goulart: #t, but we are considering the case that strict really does something, I guess.
2015-11-11T19:09:45Z mario-goulart: jcowan: that's a good point.
2015-11-11T19:10:33Z soegaard: The rationale behind the “strict;” convention is that it does nothing in (now old) JavaScript implementations.
2015-11-11T19:10:40Z jcowan: If it changed the semantics, I agree that would be pretty bad.
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2015-11-11T19:11:14Z mario-goulart: soegaard: oh, I see what you mean.
2015-11-11T19:11:41Z jcowan: I'd like R7RS-large to introduce something like #lang (rather than readtables with all their phasing problems) but precisely defined, but it may be too radical.
2015-11-11T19:13:01Z jcowan: say "#!lang (some library name)" and the language imports (some library name) and looks for an exported name "read" which it uses to read whatever follows and return Scheme code.
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2015-11-11T19:13:22Z jcowan: This is like Perl, where what follows can be a different language altogether, even stylized Latin
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2015-11-11T19:14:13Z soegaard: jcowan: Would it be possible to allow #!lang to appear multiple times in the same file?
2015-11-11T19:14:29Z Riastradh: soegaard: Not hard to imagine writing a reader that allows that!  No need for special support.
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2015-11-11T19:15:27Z jcowan: Sure, why not.  However, "#!lang" might mean something different in the new language.
2015-11-11T19:15:54Z jcowan: (count the number of characters in the reverse of the string stored in the variable lang, e.g.)
2015-11-11T19:16:07Z jcowan: In which case you wouldn't want to override that.
2015-11-11T19:16:41Z jcowan: Riastradh:  Do you have a good name available for the div0/mod0 functions of R7RS?
2015-11-11T19:18:20Z Riastradh: div2c/mod2c?  2c for `two's complement'.  (Just my fiftieth-of-a-dollar contribution, if you'll pardon my punitive response.)
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2015-11-11T19:23:36Z jcowan: I guess twos-complement-quotient, twos-complement-remainder, and twos-complement/ are no less verbose names than such obscure functions deserve
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2015-11-11T19:30:52Z Riastradh: Maybe just `signed'.
2015-11-11T19:31:40Z jcowan: Okay, fair enough
2015-11-11T19:32:30Z jcowan: I'm going to propose all six sets of division operators (the generic forms) as one of two upcoming small RFCs, the other being to offer a correct definition of string-foldcase to replace the broken one in R6RS
2015-11-11T19:33:11Z jcowan: s/foldcase/titlecase
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2015-11-11T19:34:38Z Riastradh: I suggest that you add constant-time fixed-precision arithmetic operations, and maybe certain constant-time known-precision (i.e., caller-specified precision, not conditionally normalized to omit zero digits) modular bignum arithmetic.
2015-11-11T19:36:18Z Riastradh: In particular for the latter category, Barrett reduction and Montgomery multiplication.
2015-11-11T19:36:31Z Riastradh: ...with implementation-specified radix.
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2015-11-11T19:38:16Z cagmz: can someone help me with recursively applying a function to a list? https://bpaste.net/show/4fc205682b4e .. when I call get-func and get-lst before calling (display (apply-func get-function get-lst)), is the input already bound to get-function and get-list by the time I call apply-func?
2015-11-11T19:38:37Z Riastradh: For the former category: bitwise operations; shifts and rotations; addition, subtraction, and multiplication (with possible caveats for multiplication); and equality comparison.
2015-11-11T19:38:42Z cagmz: I think my helper functions are being called again when I call (display (apply-func get-function get-lst))
2015-11-11T19:39:12Z Riastradh: Binary polynomial multiplication and division would be nice too but unfortunately no current CPUs support doing them at adequate speed in software.
2015-11-11T19:42:55Z jcowan: This one is about generic arithmetic so that I can build fixnum and flonum libraries on it.
2015-11-11T19:44:02Z Riastradh: I'm suggesting new primitives that can't be built out of other ones.  (Well, the constant-time known-precision modular bignum arithmetic can be built out of constant-time fixed-precision arithmetic, with some work.)
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2015-11-11T19:47:13Z Riastradh: It is possible -- but requires scrutiny to confirm -- that existing fixnum primitives in some Scheme systems will suffice.
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2015-11-11T19:52:19Z jcowan_: Unfortunately I am not competent to this, so we keep the status quo unless someone steps up.
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2015-11-11T19:53:12Z jcowan: Politics being the art of the possible and all.
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2015-11-12T00:21:37Z strtok: i'm running rudybot elsewhere and soemtimes it just responds by quoting something someone said previously
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2015-11-12T03:43:46Z synergistics: What are your opinions on whether or not scheme is very close to lambda calculus?
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2015-11-12T04:11:32Z jcowan: synergistics:  It is similar but by no means identical.
2015-11-12T04:16:34Z synergistics: jcowan: In what ways?
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2015-11-12T04:18:03Z jcowan: Lambda-calculus expressions are generally interpreted normally (lazily) rather than applicatively (eagerly)
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2015-11-12T04:20:56Z jcowan_: This means that in LC many expressions are confluent which in Scheme would not terminate
2015-11-12T04:21:24Z jcowan_: Lastly, LC is about reduction to normal form, whereas Scheme is about evaluation
2015-11-12T04:21:44Z jcowan_: So '32 => 32 in Scheme, whereas in a version of Scheme that reduced to NF only, '32 => '32.
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2015-11-12T04:24:06Z synergistics: Ah
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2015-11-12T04:54:33Z Tbone139: For me, scheming is often untangling a gordian knot of interconnected processes into a sensible procedural hierarchy, and sometimes I get the feeling I'm practicing inefficient habits
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2015-11-12T10:51:06Z RandomRant: Are there any native scheme left with a community that is alive and kicking?
2015-11-12T10:51:44Z taylan: RandomRant: you mean compiling to native code?
2015-11-12T10:52:20Z taylan: Chicken does, through compiling to C.  Guile will probably do it some time in the coming years.  IIRC Larceny does it too but doesn't have a big community.
2015-11-12T10:52:40Z taylan: Gambit and Bigloo do to IIRC, but don't have very big communities
2015-11-12T10:52:43Z RandomRant: Yes. Or atleast jit fast enough to have almost zero startup overhead.
2015-11-12T10:53:04Z RandomRant: Chicken's community is also not that "alive and kicking"
2015-11-12T10:53:33Z taylan: well if you don't consider that alive then I guess no Scheme other than maybe Racket is alive
2015-11-12T10:53:40Z jackdaniel: I think interpreters may be faster in some circumstances (you don't have to compile the code so startup is generally faster)
2015-11-12T10:54:05Z jackdaniel: guile is lively too
2015-11-12T10:54:28Z taylan: Chicken isn't less lively than Guile AFAIK
2015-11-12T10:54:59Z jackdaniel: I don't know how lively is chicken. Just noticed that guile is :)
2015-11-12T10:55:53Z taylan: yeah, I'd say both have relatively small and healthy communities.  maybe "alive and kicking" means more than that.
2015-11-12T10:56:03Z taylan: surely no comparison to something like Python :)
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2015-11-12T10:56:57Z jackdaniel: I believe that messier the language the more lively community it requires to maintain some knowledge/skill base
2015-11-12T10:57:31Z jackdaniel: therefore some finished language with good documentation might require no community while python requires many people to keep language usable
2015-11-12T10:58:52Z jackdaniel: gambit had new release a few days ago
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2015-11-12T11:24:20Z kephra: jackdaniel, thats why o3db is an interpreter - i do not need much throughput, but "fast" latency
2015-11-12T11:26:53Z kephra: RandomRant, chicken community even had a meeting a while ago - and has daily progress
2015-11-12T11:28:09Z kephra: compared to other schemes, Chicken has a large flock
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2015-11-12T12:18:24Z wingo: having a compiler doesn't mean you don't have an interpreter :)
2015-11-12T12:19:47Z RandomRant: (almost) all compilers have interpreters build in, to process compile-time macros.
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2015-11-12T12:21:59Z jackdaniel: yes, what I meant is that the compiler isn't a requirement for the fast code (given some criteria, like latency mentioned by kephra). Also by default compilers usually compile before executing code, though changing the defaults is possible
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2015-11-12T20:49:50Z cagmz: can someone help me with my program? I get "ERROR: Wrong number of arguments to #<procedure get-function ()>" . https://bpaste.net/show/9b84e306a5fa
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2015-11-14T05:17:47Z names: ccl-logbot githogori_ Tenhi_0 stasku jewel__ truncate renopt_ caolanm _sjs_ Guest7909 wingo_ ArneBab aap jrdnull antoszka neoncontrails dan64 oleo_ ASau sethalves niklasl akkad cross ohama NeverDie lritter paroneayea leppie cdidd shardz excelsior b4283 NaNDude ozzloy dTal Saeren beagles drdo defanor pchrist_ petercommand samw3 weinholt samth Raimondi pjb profess carc Khisanth ski chu jjwatt snow_bckspc wasamasa nowhere_man zacts cmatei narendraj9 b2coutts
2015-11-14T05:17:47Z names: jkraemer_ yrdz Mike57 lloda aeth ivan\ ndancer ineiros_ kwmiebach luxbock dmiles_akf eMBee C-Keen r0kc4t haasn joneshf-laptop m1dnight_ jxanthony Kruppe fadein pygospa mach juanfra dtscode evhan abbe fantomik wailord DGASAU twem2 igajsin1 fikusz greghendershott scoofy GGMethos kephra mrowe_away gnomon sternenseemann tessier teiresias low-prof1 strtok kbtr rotty tm512 seg sevengraff hive-mind cky cantstanya cataska strmpnk yosafbridge` rudybot jrslepak
2015-11-14T05:17:47Z names: diginet mlaine choas chishiki rvb ft sytse taylan nitrix balkamos foof LeoNerd henrytill _0x5eb_ acarrico stephe ByronJohnson eagleflo jackdaniel emma zwdr dfcat SHODAN jyc moredhel Neet torpig fgudin Tbone139 zbigniew Jasu_M haroldwu ecraven tstc averell rsully dsp_ rx80 stamourv failproofshark SirDayBat ec\ dpk dsp Kryo taij33n Riviera Octophore` add^_ nisstyre snits dbohdan mario-goulart clog ggherdov vikraman asumu cojy vifino cjh` benaiah joast XTL
2015-11-14T05:17:47Z names: larion gf3 keemyb sssi ec z0d micro` tephra Blkt fizzie stux|work DerGuteMoritz emmanueloga PinealGlandOptic Razz Tenhi mikeyhc dualbus cibs gabot copec finnrobi
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2015-11-14T14:56:02Z leppie: rudybot: 0e999999999999999999999999999999999
2015-11-14T14:56:03Z rudybot: leppie: ; Value: +inf.0
2015-11-14T14:56:07Z leppie: mmmmm
2015-11-14T14:58:39Z leppie: lol, bugs out on Chez Petite too...
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2015-11-14T22:50:35Z cagmz: in scheme, what exactly is a list of the form '(a b c) ( d e f)? Is that 2 lists?
2015-11-14T22:50:51Z dpk: yeah, that's two separate lists
2015-11-14T22:52:08Z cagmz: is it a list of lists?
2015-11-14T22:52:51Z LeoNerd: Those are two forms
2015-11-14T22:52:56Z LeoNerd: '(a b c)    is one complete thing
2015-11-14T22:53:00Z LeoNerd: (d e f)   is then a second
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2015-11-14T23:05:44Z pjb: '(a b c) is a list of 2 elements.   (d e f) is a list of 3 elements.
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2015-11-14T23:06:46Z cagmz: can someone help me? I'm having trouble traversing through each row in my matrix. https://bpaste.net/show/ad3ad4186b7b
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2015-11-14T23:09:06Z pjb: cagmz: since you have a list of list, and since map processes only one list, then you need 2 calls to map.
2015-11-14T23:09:24Z pjb: Since list of list are lists embedded into lists, then your two calls must be "embedded" one into the other.
2015-11-14T23:09:44Z pjb: Therefore, not (map …) (map …) but (map … (map …)…).
2015-11-14T23:09:48Z pjb: Something like that.
2015-11-14T23:10:12Z wasamasa: make a list of lists
2015-11-14T23:10:17Z cagmz: hmm ok, ill refactor
2015-11-14T23:10:30Z wasamasa: '((a b c) (d e f) (g h i))
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2015-11-14T23:24:36Z cagmz: i think im getting closer but i still have an error: https://bpaste.net/show/e32e5cfa3908
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2015-11-15T00:52:03Z pjb: gagmz: (map proc list1 list2 ...)
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2015-11-15T01:55:20Z cagmz: if I do this: (define in-file-one (open-input-file "in_1.txt")) .. can I do define another procedure like so: (define use_input (in-file-one))?
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2015-11-15T02:20:03Z pjb: in-file-one is not bound to a procedure.
2015-11-15T02:20:50Z pjb: The result of open-input-file is not a procedure.
2015-11-15T02:20:53Z pjb: it's a port.
2015-11-15T02:21:03Z pjb: cagmz: have you read r5rs?
2015-11-15T02:21:07Z pjb: it's only 50 pages.
2015-11-15T02:21:18Z pjb: http://www.schemers.org/Documents/Standards/R5RS/HTML/
2015-11-15T02:21:54Z pjb: cagmz: also, previously: gagmz: (map proc list1 list2 ...)
2015-11-15T02:22:09Z pjb: (from the same r5rs)
2015-11-15T02:22:36Z cagmz: no, thanks for the link
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2015-11-15T03:26:49Z cagmz_: guile shows this error: https://bpaste.net/show/5823aec97610 . what's the difference between (1 2 3) and {translate-lst} ?
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2015-11-15T03:30:40Z pjb: (1 2 3) is a list of 3 elements. (translate-lst) is a list of 1 element.
2015-11-15T03:31:17Z pjb: I don't know what {translate-lst}is.
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2015-11-15T03:32:07Z pjb: (map + '(1 2 3) '(4 5 6)) --> (5 7 9)
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2015-11-15T03:34:44Z cagmz_: holy , i got it
2015-11-15T03:39:02Z cagmz_: https://bpaste.net/show/c5d92df8f4b2
2015-11-15T03:39:29Z pjb: Yay!
2015-11-15T03:39:32Z cagmz_: so i basically had to extract a list from the matrix (list of lists) and then just map it to translate, which was already a list
2015-11-15T03:39:50Z cagmz_: thanks a bunch for your help!
2015-11-15T03:39:51Z pjb: Now, do the same thing, on columns!
2015-11-15T03:41:00Z cagmz_: maybe after, I got one more task: (transform '((1 2 3)(4 5 6)(7 8 9)) '((1 2 3)(10 20 30)(-5 -10 -15))) ; -> ((14 140 -70) (32 320 -160) (50 500 -250))
2015-11-15T03:41:19Z cagmz_: it's the dot product of 2 matrices, i believe
2015-11-15T03:41:30Z cagmz_: but first, dinner, game of thrones, and then pass out
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2015-11-15T03:43:21Z pjb: (matrix-translate-column  '((1 2 3)(4 5 6)(7 8 9)) '(10 20 30)) --> ((11 12 13) (24 25 26) (37 38 39))
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2015-11-15T03:46:43Z cagmez__: is functional programming basically recursion? or is it different?
2015-11-15T03:46:53Z pjb: it's avoiding mutation.
2015-11-15T03:46:58Z pjb: or even avoiding variables.
2015-11-15T03:47:23Z cagmez__: I know FP employs recursion a lot, but I'm not sure if its synonymous
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2015-11-15T03:47:28Z pjb: cf: https://www.cs.cmu.edu/~crary/819-f09/Backus78.pdf
2015-11-15T03:48:24Z pjb: Well, the advantage of recursion is that you can iterate without mutating variables, and without having procedural control flow (which is a kind of state).
2015-11-15T03:48:26Z cagmez__: thanks, im going to read that. my prof was just talking about that the other day, although he says that research in an architecture built for FP has been stagnant
2015-11-15T03:48:53Z pjb: cagmez__: when you have a loop, even without variables, you need to mutate something to loop: the PC.
2015-11-15T03:49:07Z cagmez__: program counter?
2015-11-15T03:49:10Z pjb: Yes.
2015-11-15T03:49:48Z pjb: cagmez__: well, there's this think you see.  The ideas of functional programming match perfectly mathematics.  Unfortunately, our universe (at least at the scales we can observe it), is VERY STATEFUL.
2015-11-15T03:49:57Z pjb: ie. you cannot eat your cake and have it.
2015-11-15T03:50:19Z pjb: So, as long as we build our computer inside our universe, we have to deal with state (hardware state).
2015-11-15T03:50:39Z cagmez__: i think the idea of composing functions is neat, but it is *different* to say the least
2015-11-15T03:51:14Z pjb: the advantage of functional programming is that you kind of write equations.
2015-11-15T03:53:37Z rvb: It's also much easier to prove the semantics of a functional program, rather than for a program that exploits state a lot.
2015-11-15T03:54:47Z rvb: All that Hoare logic, with the help of which one can prove small toy programs to be correct, becomes basically superfluous for functional programs, whose recursive functions you can prove correct by simple induction.
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2015-11-15T04:05:58Z cagmez__: also because the lack of side effects?
2015-11-15T04:07:48Z rvb: For one part, it is because of the lack of side effects: a function called with the same arguments always returns the same value.
2015-11-15T04:07:59Z rvb: On the other hand, it is because induction and recursion are basically the same.
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2015-11-15T04:09:57Z cagmez__: have a good night everyone, see ya
2015-11-15T04:10:04Z rvb: It's early morning!
2015-11-15T04:10:05Z rvb: ;-)
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2015-11-15T04:10:27Z adu: functional programming is great
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2015-11-15T04:10:51Z adu: but not when you have to push everything into the IO Monad
2015-11-15T04:11:23Z rvb: Yes, everything has its limits, of course.
2015-11-15T04:11:43Z rvb: As pjb already expressed it, I canot eat the cake and still have it.
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2015-11-15T04:31:20Z adu: lol
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2015-11-15T05:22:08Z kephra: moin
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2015-11-15T05:43:26Z rvb: Moin.
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2015-11-15T05:51:23Z kephra: pro tip - do not listen to russian radio today - they are playing french chansons since yesterday night - for solidarity
2015-11-15T05:51:31Z kephra: *oups* wrong channel
2015-11-15T05:51:54Z rvb: Have to check...
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2015-11-15T05:54:07Z rvb: No Chanson here. :-)
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2015-11-15T16:17:25Z atomx: in mit-scheme is there some interactive repl without using edwin ?
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2015-11-15T18:23:22Z leppie: rudybot: (list 0e400 0e401)
2015-11-15T18:23:22Z rudybot: leppie: ; Value: '(0.0 +inf.0)
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2015-11-15T18:30:18Z ecraven: atomx: just start mit-scheme?
2015-11-15T18:30:39Z ecraven: atomx: there's also SLIME support, if you want to use Emacs
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2015-11-15T18:35:10Z jsgrant: Geiser in Emacs might support Mit-Scheme, but due to lack of current development on that implementation's end, I'm a bit dubious.
2015-11-15T18:36:19Z jsgrant: atomx: If you are running through SICP, Racket has a SICP #lang to do some of the picture stuff; And Dr.Racket is pretty easy on that learning curve. :^P
2015-11-15T18:36:55Z jsgrant wonders if SICP has a license, where you could edit some of the given examples to work better with something like Racket generally.
2015-11-15T18:40:12Z Riastradh: jsgrant: SICP licence: CC-BY-SA, per <https://mitpress.mit.edu/sicp/>.
2015-11-15T18:40:57Z jsgrant: Riastradh: Ah, neat. So concievably yeah, one could do such of a thing if they give proper attribution.
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2015-11-15T19:07:50Z cagmz: is Racket kind of like a Pythonic scheme? i get that impression cause it includes a bunch of stuff
2015-11-15T19:13:08Z pjb: It includes a bunch of stuff.
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2015-11-15T19:13:51Z pjb: kephra: url to russia radio?
2015-11-15T19:15:17Z kephra: http://echo.msk.ru/sounds/stream.html <- they are currently only talking
2015-11-15T19:17:50Z alexshendi:  /join #lisp
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2015-11-15T19:34:38Z cagmz: why is column not in parens in the matrix-multiply? https://bpaste.net/show/92c1520a8c14 is that valid syntax for a lambda?
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2015-11-15T19:38:47Z cagmz: nevermind, http://stackoverflow.com/questions/20017898/scheme-lambda-expression-with-no-parentheses-around-parameter
2015-11-15T19:38:47Z rudybot: http://teensy.info/az6YyQ2cJv
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2015-11-15T22:02:35Z manWithNoName: greetings
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2015-11-15T22:07:22Z ecraven: hey
2015-11-15T22:08:29Z ecraven: jsgrant: if there were any documentation on geiser's internal format, I'd have tried a basic MIT/GNU Scheme backend.. but right now, I have the impression that SLIME is still superior to geiser in general usage (though I haven't used geiser extensively)
2015-11-15T22:10:31Z jsgrant: ecraven: Slime also has like 5+ (probably closer to 10) years on it too though. :^)
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2015-11-15T22:11:49Z jsgrant: The tooling is getting pretty good, from what I've seen, due to projects like Guile via the push towards Guix though.
2015-11-15T22:21:46Z wasamasa: I've tried geiser for a few weeks and gave up after reporting three or four bugs
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2015-11-16T01:51:06Z t4nk032: ...
2015-11-16T01:52:42Z evhan: Error: too many ellipses in template
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2015-11-16T01:54:44Z Alex_: have anyone here?
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2015-11-16T01:55:25Z pjb: I have also ellipses here: …
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2015-11-16T01:58:31Z Alex_: just a question..SICP use true or false,but it doesn't work in larceny or chez.
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2015-11-16T02:07:53Z pjb: (define true #t) (define false #f)
2015-11-16T02:07:56Z pjb: duh
2015-11-16T02:08:59Z Alex_: thank you :P
2015-11-16T02:09:04Z pjb: Alex_: if somebody says aye and nay instead of yes or no, you can still understand them, can't you? Why can't you understand true/false for #t/#f?
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2015-11-16T02:18:22Z Alex_: I'm just a newbee..
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2015-11-16T04:13:55Z Alex_: (define (expmod base exp m) 	(cond ((= exp 0) 1) 		((even? exp) 			(remainder (square (expmod base (/ exp 2) m)) m)) 		(else  			(remainder (* base (expmod base (- exp 1) m)) m))))  (define (try-it a n) (= (expmod a n n) a))  (define (fermat-test n) (try-it (+ (random (- n 1))1)) n)  (define (fast-prime? n times) (cond ((= times 0) #t) 	((fermat-test n) (fast-prime? n (- times 1))) 	(else #f)))
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2015-11-16T06:20:21Z ecraven: jsgrant: yea, and sometimes it's very clear that SLIME is meant (exclusively) for Common Lisp, not other languages.. but all over, it still works very very well
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2015-11-16T09:40:42Z nilg: Sorry, I forgot again how to create a list of numbers from 1 to N (or from 0 to N-1)
2015-11-16T09:43:07Z ecraven: nilg: iota
2015-11-16T09:47:06Z nilg: awesome, thanks
2015-11-16T09:47:13Z sytse: nilg: http://srfi.schemers.org/srfi-1/srfi-1.html has a nice index at the top
2015-11-16T09:47:43Z sytse: (which contains iota)
2015-11-16T09:49:21Z nilg: Thanks. I've had browsed https://www.gnu.org/software/guile/manual/html_node/Procedure-Index.html#Procedure-Index but I couldn't even remember slightly remember the name so I couldn't find it.
2015-11-16T09:49:22Z rudybot: http://teensy.info/7e0lCgy83D
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2015-11-17T00:07:27Z cagmz: what does line 9 do if tok is eof? https://bpaste.net/show/42fad83aaaf6
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2015-11-17T00:18:39Z wasamasa: then the loop should be terminated
2015-11-17T00:18:49Z wasamasa: got to say that do is pretty confusing to read
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2015-11-17T00:42:55Z evhan: The weird indentation doesn't help any... When nicely formatted, do is OK.
2015-11-17T00:44:07Z cagmz: how can i terminate on an empty list? https://bpaste.net/show/baffe8b01e65
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2015-11-17T03:52:18Z cagmz: can anyone confirm that these matrix-transform-2 is equivalent to transform + it's helper functions? i get the same output. https://bpaste.net/show/35bb0c2d8c35
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2015-11-17T07:18:16Z technomancy: I'm working on a programming-centric game that embeds a scheme dialect; in-game the scheme is intended to be the OS for a certain kind of space station. is there any prior art on "scheme as an OS" I could look to for inspiration on how that could work?
2015-11-17T07:19:54Z renopt: obligatory lisp machine suggestion
2015-11-17T07:20:03Z renopt: and that one scheme CPU
2015-11-17T07:20:05Z technomancy: oh, duh, yeah
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2015-11-17T07:21:00Z kephra: technomancy, sounds interesting
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2015-11-17T07:23:29Z technomancy: kephra: thanks. =) the bulk of the game is about programming in lua and a faux-unix clone I've written for it, but I wanted to spice it up for some of the more exotic locations with a scheme impl
2015-11-17T07:24:31Z technomancy: https://technomancy.itch.io/bussard if you want to try it out
2015-11-17T07:25:20Z technomancy: I've found three separate lisps on the lua runtime, all quite problematic in their own way =\
2015-11-17T07:29:27Z kephra: imho, Lua is great, if you embed it in own code - but quality of lua libs are mostly subpar
2015-11-17T07:30:05Z kephra: e.g. there are a good dozen posix libs for lua, each one without regression test, documentation, ...
2015-11-17T07:30:29Z technomancy: kephra: yeah. really the only libs I'm using are part of the love2d framework which wraps SDL and is quite high-quality
2015-11-17T07:30:46Z technomancy: probably a different story for general-purpose stuff, but for this use case it fits perfectly
2015-11-17T07:31:09Z technomancy: I tried to look at some of the web tools for it and it was an absolute mess
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2015-11-17T07:33:27Z renopt: if my scheme interpreter's api existed I'd suggest it, buuut...
2015-11-17T07:35:16Z technomancy: renopt: you're working on something that runs without an OS?
2015-11-17T07:37:18Z technomancy: oh cool; I got a license for https://github.com/kstep/scheme.lua/issues/1
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2015-11-17T07:38:50Z technomancy: though https://github.com/meric/l2l seems to be a lot more advanced (reader macros, some self-hosting, working error reporting) it requires too new a lua =(
2015-11-17T07:41:02Z renopt: technomancy: eeeeh I would ask the guy to add a "proper" license file to the repo, I'm sure they wouldn't try and sue you, but you never know
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2015-11-17T07:41:46Z technomancy: hrm yeah probably
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2015-11-17T09:05:39Z technomancy: oh dear. this scheme uses lua tables as its lists.
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2015-11-17T09:21:50Z taylan: on one hand, that's super weird, on the other hand, if the complexity of operations is O(n) at worst, who cares? :P
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2015-11-17T09:25:19Z technomancy: yeah, it's practically speaking not a huge problem; it's just that if you start to think of it as "scheme" and let your guard down you'll probably run into trouble eventually.
2015-11-17T09:25:24Z technomancy: for the purposes of this game, no big deal
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2015-11-17T09:30:01Z kephra: technomancy, my Scheme look like is using arrays as lists - without real cons cells
2015-11-17T09:30:15Z technomancy: huh
2015-11-17T09:30:22Z technomancy: but you don't call it "Scheme" =)
2015-11-17T09:30:38Z kephra: I call it Scheme look like as it passes the r4rs regression test
2015-11-17T09:30:43Z technomancy: I did that for a while with my toy interpreter but fell back quickly once it became clear I didn't know what I was doing
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2015-11-17T09:32:13Z kephra: about your game: did you implement full orbital mechanics?
2015-11-17T09:32:40Z kephra: e.g. lets say i'm in same orbit as a station, but a few minutes behinds
2015-11-17T09:33:50Z kephra: to reach the station, I need to !decelerate! to reach a lower orbit, and accelerate back to old speed and orbit one orbit later to reach the station two orbits later
2015-11-17T09:34:45Z kephra: one of my dreams is a hard scifi space combat game
2015-11-17T09:34:52Z kephra: no reaction less drives
2015-11-17T09:34:57Z kephra: no antigravity
2015-11-17T09:35:02Z kephra: no faster then light
2015-11-17T09:37:37Z technomancy: kephra: well my game has no combat
2015-11-17T09:37:44Z technomancy: but apart from that it comes close
2015-11-17T09:38:12Z technomancy: if I may direct you to the section of my dev notes titled "Crimes against Science" https://gitlab.com/technomancy/bussard/blob/master/spoilers/readme.md#crimes-against-science
2015-11-17T09:38:12Z rudybot: http://teensy.info/62B23CBgCs
2015-11-17T09:38:19Z kephra: but its 2d?
2015-11-17T09:38:29Z technomancy: correct
2015-11-17T09:39:04Z kephra: btw, bussard rams would be great to decellerate once you reached an other star
2015-11-17T09:39:05Z technomancy: the main inaccuracies are 0) artificial wormholes, 1) engines unrealistically powerful and 2) collision is impossible
2015-11-17T09:39:26Z kephra: I call it space opera sci fi
2015-11-17T09:39:47Z technomancy: the backstory of the game includes a period in which faster-than-light travel was impossible, and the political landscape is shaped largely by this fact
2015-11-17T09:39:49Z kephra: first I handwave artificial gravity - because my budged lacks a rounded floor
2015-11-17T09:40:02Z technomancy: https://gitlab.com/technomancy/bussard/blob/master/spoilers/history.md
2015-11-17T09:40:08Z kephra: next ships fight on ramming distance - because both have to fit on same tv screen
2015-11-17T09:40:11Z technomancy: I don't simulate anything inside the ship other than the computer
2015-11-17T09:41:03Z technomancy: have you read this? https://forums.spacebattles.com/threads/essay-on-realistic-space-combat-i-wrote.131056/
2015-11-17T09:41:03Z rudybot: http://teensy.info/Soi7p2mDbt
2015-11-17T09:41:41Z kephra: http://kephra.de/blog/Radium_Space.html#en <- this was a draft of my plot
2015-11-17T09:42:51Z technomancy: cool!
2015-11-17T09:43:02Z technomancy: oh, not english, hehe
2015-11-17T09:45:42Z kephra: the site should show the english text
2015-11-17T09:45:58Z kephra: or do you have scripts disabled?
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2015-11-17T09:48:30Z technomancy: oh yeah, I had noscript on
2015-11-17T09:48:33Z technomancy: cool, I see it now =)
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2015-11-17T09:59:22Z technomancy: sounds like fun
2015-11-17T10:00:01Z technomancy: kephra: you have probably already read this, but in case not, this is a great resource for hard-sci-fi world design http://www.projectrho.com/public_html/rocket/
2015-11-17T10:00:43Z kephra: *yeah* the fusion rocket pages
2015-11-17T10:01:10Z kephra: s/fusion/fission/
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2015-11-17T10:12:32Z kephra: http://www.projectrho.com/public_html/rocket/surfaceorbit.php#id--Laser_Launch <- the guild used this as a development aid in the new era - also doubles as orbital defense
2015-11-17T10:12:32Z rudybot: http://teensy.info/PaevJZmSub
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2015-11-17T14:13:27Z technomancy: wow, two bonuses in one day
2015-11-17T14:13:45Z technomancy: one of the schemes I was thinking of using but couldn't because it wasn't licensed, adds a license
2015-11-17T14:14:03Z technomancy: the other I couldn't use because it required too new a runtime, added compatibility with the older runtime
2015-11-17T14:14:08Z technomancy <- spoiled for choice
2015-11-17T14:15:46Z technomancy: when in doubt, go with the implementation that actually has stack traces #lifehacks
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2015-11-17T16:47:53Z cagmz: any help? my code doesn't detect 1 being in the first list: https://bpaste.net/show/415677d92800
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2015-11-17T16:57:54Z pjb: cagmz: indented correctly: http://paste.lisp.org/+3F8H
2015-11-17T16:58:19Z cagmz: pjb, i got it , i used (member)
2015-11-17T16:58:19Z pjb: cagmz: your code in incorrect. display doesn't return a procedure.
2015-11-17T16:58:28Z pjb: s/in /is /
2015-11-17T16:58:47Z cagmz: pjb, i know, it's not finished yet. i will eventually return a third list filled with unique elements from both lists
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2015-11-17T18:47:51Z jayforsythe: Hello!!!
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2015-11-17T22:16:55Z RandomRant: How usefull is a scheme without tail-call optimization?
2015-11-17T22:17:18Z pjb: there's do, so you can still do stuff.
2015-11-17T22:17:35Z pjb: In any case, tco is useless to walk trees or graphs.
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2015-11-17T22:20:58Z wasamasa: not very much
2015-11-17T22:21:27Z wasamasa: how useful is a human without feet?
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2015-11-17T22:21:40Z jcowan: Having it known to be available creates certain styles of programming that aren't feasible when it is not guaranteed
2015-11-17T22:22:10Z jcowan: but often you could do without it provided named-let (and more marginally do) do not eat stack.
2015-11-17T22:22:51Z jcowan: e.g state machine programming via letrec relies on proper tail calls.
2015-11-17T22:23:52Z RandomRant: I often play with the thought of writing my own scheme, that is actually usefully fast.
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2015-11-17T22:26:17Z jcowan: A fast not-quite-scheme is Bigloo
2015-11-17T22:27:13Z RandomRant: The project looks dead. It sometimes jerks, tough.
2015-11-17T22:27:16Z jcowan: But Larceny (not Petit Larceny) is a fast full Scheme
2015-11-17T22:27:29Z RandomRant: does it support jit hotloading?
2015-11-17T22:27:35Z jcowan: Scheme projects generally do look dead, but that doesn't mean the maintainers are unrespponsive
2015-11-17T22:27:43Z jcowan: Bigloo is AOT
2015-11-17T22:28:17Z wasamasa: funny, it looks like the new hot thing is replacing JIT with some AOT goodness
2015-11-17T22:28:27Z RandomRant: All scheme->C compilers take some C disadvantages on them
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2015-11-17T22:28:41Z wasamasa: who would have guessed even android wouldn't be safe from that
2015-11-17T22:29:11Z mario-goulart: C disadvantages like... ?
2015-11-17T22:29:41Z RandomRant: dynamic library unloading/reloading. Afaik its not part of the C standard, nor the ABI.
2015-11-17T22:29:53Z mario-goulart: very #t
2015-11-17T22:29:57Z jcowan: The necessity of special hacks to bypass C's lack of proper tail calls
2015-11-17T22:30:42Z jcowan: Not a C disadvantage as such, though there are CVMs that don't support it, they are rare.
2015-11-17T22:30:51Z jcowan: The other is more serious
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2015-11-17T22:31:13Z jcowan: Chicken flattens out the difference between tail and non-tail calls by imposing a nearly constant overhead on both
2015-11-17T22:31:38Z jcowan: I don't know what Petit Larceny does
2015-11-17T22:32:08Z mario-goulart: Is Chez really fast?  Faster than Larceny?
2015-11-17T22:32:48Z jcowan: Probably, but full Chez has been unavailable for years
2015-11-17T22:32:49Z mario-goulart: (I know it's a subjective question)
2015-11-17T22:33:26Z jcowan: It was sold to Cisco, which stuffed it under the rug, leaving only Petite Chez (an interpreter) freely available.
2015-11-17T22:34:00Z mario-goulart: Aren't licenses for the full Chez even sold anymore?
2015-11-17T22:34:08Z mario-goulart: New ones, I mean.
2015-11-17T22:34:21Z jcowan: If you try, you get told that Cisco will contact you, but they never actually do.  So no.
2015-11-17T22:34:52Z mario-goulart: That's a shame.  One of the best compilers around has been made unavailable.
2015-11-17T22:35:06Z jcowan: The sin of proprietary software
2015-11-17T22:35:07Z mario-goulart: OTOH, it was closed-source anyay.
2015-11-17T22:35:13Z mario-goulart: anyway*
2015-11-17T22:35:26Z jcowan: It's because it was closed source that it's unavailable today.
2015-11-17T22:35:37Z mario-goulart: Indeed.  Good point.
2015-11-17T22:36:22Z jcowan: There is always Stalin, which is OSS but has a completely dysfunctional community, not even a mailing list.
2015-11-17T22:36:44Z mario-goulart: And r4rs only, right?
2015-11-17T22:37:20Z evhan: Stalin has a community?
2015-11-17T22:37:25Z jcowan: Yes, but front-ending it is trivial.
2015-11-17T22:38:03Z jcowan: evhan: In the sense that, say, tigers form a community.  There are lots of tigers with similar problems who find similar solutions, but they don't share anything.
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2015-11-17T22:38:36Z mario-goulart: evhan: he was a communist, wasn't he?
2015-11-17T22:38:50Z jcowan: The Stalin users I've talked to basically say "I've got it working for me, and I only care about me."
2015-11-17T22:39:34Z jcowan: Even a patch as trivial as "assume -i, because without -i Stalin stops and says 'compiling without -i' is unsupported' can't get into the source.
2015-11-17T22:39:46Z mario-goulart: I'm quite suprised Stalin users actually exist.
2015-11-17T22:39:52Z jcowan: Oh yes.
2015-11-17T22:41:21Z jcowan: When you need it, and if you can discover it, and if you are sufficiently self-sufficient to use it, you quickly become dependent on it.
2015-11-17T22:41:56Z mario-goulart: Because it's fast?
2015-11-17T22:42:29Z jcowan: Because it is INSANELY optimizing on certain classes of problems, at the expense of having no debugging facilities and insanely slow compile times.
2015-11-17T22:42:44Z jcowan: Debug on X, deploy on Stalin, is the rule.
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2015-11-17T22:43:16Z mario-goulart: Ok, so I suppose speed is the only appealing thing.
2015-11-17T22:43:36Z jcowan: I think so.  The code is hard to understand, being completely uncommented except for a few prayers in Hebrew.
2015-11-17T22:44:02Z mario-goulart: Maybe also "stability", in the sense that it is not updated. :-)
2015-11-17T22:44:28Z jcowan: Maybe, although regression to earlier versions of other Schemes is always practical.
2015-11-17T22:45:14Z jcowan: I exclude Stalin on principle from my tests-of-all-Schemes, whereas I normally exclude a Scheme only if it won't build or won't run on my fairly vanilla Linux test system.
2015-11-17T22:45:22Z jcowan: Which leaves me with about 50 Schemes.
2015-11-17T22:45:26Z RandomRant: I wish there would be a scheme build on types, not just pseudo-optional annotations which don't remove type tags at runtime.
2015-11-17T22:45:29Z jcowan: Life is just too short to test things on Stalin.
2015-11-17T22:45:45Z mario-goulart: :-)
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2015-11-17T22:45:48Z jcowan: RandomRant:  T is your friend, though the compiler is for obsolete architectures
2015-11-17T22:45:59Z jcowan: Oaklisp is also a possibility
2015-11-17T22:46:01Z RandomRant: T? Is it another scheme?
2015-11-17T22:46:05Z jcowan: Yes.
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2015-11-17T22:46:24Z mario-goulart: RandomRant: I think CHICKEN also does something like to some extendt that if you care to specify types.
2015-11-17T22:46:37Z mario-goulart: argh
2015-11-17T22:46:41Z RandomRant: Every scheme has atleast one major flaw, which makes me want to roll my own <.<
2015-11-17T22:46:43Z jcowan: Yes, and there is Typed Racket, but I don't know if that removes runtime types.
2015-11-17T22:46:59Z mario-goulart: I think CHICKEN also does something like that, to some extend, if you...
2015-11-17T22:47:00Z jcowan: Which is why we have 50 Schemes
2015-11-17T22:47:01Z wasamasa: RandomRant: what makes you believe you'll be better than that?
2015-11-17T22:47:06Z jcowan: or almost 80
2015-11-17T22:47:24Z jcowan: wasamasa:  The Curse of Lisp, that's what!
2015-11-17T22:47:31Z mario-goulart: :-)
2015-11-17T22:48:00Z wasamasa: I dunno
2015-11-17T22:48:06Z mario-goulart: Is T "officially" a Scheme?
2015-11-17T22:48:12Z wasamasa: it's not so much a curse as "I want to have fun, fun, fun!" to me
2015-11-17T22:48:22Z RandomRant: wasamasa: many of them have features which i don't need. I want my own scheme-like for my own mini-purposes :P
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2015-11-17T22:48:36Z jcowan: http://www.winestockwebdesign.com/Essays/Lisp_Curse.html
2015-11-17T22:48:39Z wasamasa: RandomRant: that's a funny thing to say for a language renowned for its tiny standard
2015-11-17T22:48:59Z jcowan: tl;dr:  Programming in Lisp is so easy that what are technical problems in other languages, become social problems in Lisp.
2015-11-17T22:49:22Z wasamasa: I don't really buy that
2015-11-17T22:49:36Z jcowan: Have you read the essay?
2015-11-17T22:49:39Z mario-goulart: RandomRant: making a decent Scheme is really hard...
2015-11-17T22:49:49Z wasamasa: jcowan: yes, I did
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2015-11-17T22:50:12Z RandomRant: mario-goulart: im not going to try to make everyone happy :P
2015-11-17T22:50:13Z wasamasa: jcowan: my hypothesis is that C programmers care more when making libraries
2015-11-17T22:50:42Z jcowan: They have to, because if the library is at all complex they won't be able to make it at all.
2015-11-17T22:50:53Z wasamasa: jcowan: the "Lispers know the value of everything and the cost of nothing" quote is there for a reason
2015-11-17T22:51:04Z jcowan: T is officially R3RS-compliant
2015-11-17T22:51:16Z mario-goulart: Oh, interesting.
2015-11-17T22:51:46Z mario-goulart: I bet T is for Three. :-)
2015-11-17T22:51:46Z jcowan: But as I say it has rotted, not for the usual reasons but because there is no back end for modern CPUs
2015-11-17T22:52:08Z jcowan: No, it's a pun on an early implementation of Common Lisp called the New Implementation of Lisp, or NIL
2015-11-17T22:52:26Z jcowan: s/Common/pre-Common
2015-11-17T22:52:29Z mario-goulart: I see.  I actually read the T manual ome months ago.  Pretty interesting.
2015-11-17T22:52:36Z mario-goulart: some*
2015-11-17T22:53:48Z mario-goulart: jcowan: I think you should write a book on Scheme implementations.
2015-11-17T22:54:05Z jcowan: I am only an egg
2015-11-17T22:54:06Z mario-goulart: I'd buy it.
2015-11-17T22:55:01Z jcowan: oh, implementation*s*, plural.
2015-11-17T22:55:09Z jcowan: I suppose I could do something with that
2015-11-17T22:55:29Z jcowan: I was reading "Scheme implementation", the general ways it's done, on which I am no expert.
2015-11-17T22:55:47Z mario-goulart: Yeah, like "The evolution of Lisp".  That one by Steele that you recommended lacks too many details that you know.
2015-11-17T22:56:47Z jcowan: Point.  ALthough it would probably express my prejudice and ignorance as much as my knowledge.
2015-11-17T22:56:50Z mario-goulart: You write well and you know a lot about a great variety of Scheme implementations.  That would be a very interesting and valuable materia.
2015-11-17T22:56:58Z mario-goulart: l
2015-11-17T22:59:19Z mario-goulart: Good reviewers would probably filter out prejudice and ignorance. :-)
2015-11-17T23:02:39Z jcowan: Yes, while injecting their own.  :-)
2015-11-17T23:02:48Z jcowan: But I coul try, I suppose.
2015-11-17T23:03:14Z mario-goulart: That would be awesome.
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2015-11-17T23:24:50Z RandomRant: What about a kickstarter to make chez open?
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2015-11-18T07:11:43Z kephra: Raimondi, do you think a kickstarter works for software?
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2015-11-18T17:23:12Z cagmz: how can i write a space ' ' to a file? im using (write)
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2015-11-18T17:29:27Z Riastradh: Use display or write-char, not write.
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2015-11-18T17:39:10Z cagmz: got it, gonna try write-char #\space
2015-11-18T17:40:14Z cagmz: yess, thank you!
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2015-11-18T21:36:58Z synergistics: Are symbols only stored once in memory?
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2015-11-18T21:38:21Z evhan: synergistics: Yes, conceptually, for interned symbols.
2015-11-18T21:38:27Z davexunit: synergistics: practically speaking, yes, because (eq? 'foo 'foo) => #t
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2015-11-18T21:40:28Z synergistics: Ah ok
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2015-11-18T23:29:40Z cagmz: if i have an association list, can i update the value of the key? say I'm counting the # of occurences. (define dict '((x 1) (y 1) (z 1))) .. if i do (assoc 'x dict) I will get (x 1) back, but I want update (x 1) to (x 2) to show that I have seen x twice
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2015-11-18T23:34:56Z LeoNerd: You can update it if the underlying list is updatable, sure
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2015-11-18T23:40:52Z jcowan: cagmz:  Note that you are describing a change in the value, not the key
2015-11-18T23:41:22Z cagmz: you are right jcowan, i mispoke
2015-11-18T23:41:41Z cagmz: how would i update it tho?
2015-11-18T23:46:15Z jcowan: It's just a list, so when you call assoc/assq/assv to get the key-value pair, you can then call set-cdr! to update the value
2015-11-18T23:46:21Z jcowan: Make sure it is not #f first, obviously
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2015-11-18T23:49:36Z jcowan: For portability, make sure that the list is not created by quote, but by cons or list.
2015-11-18T23:54:17Z cagmz: thanks a bunch!
2015-11-18T23:55:30Z jcowan: Also in Racket it will not work, because lists are immutable in Racket.
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2015-11-19T00:00:34Z cagmz: is it possible to check a list for a member as im building it? https://bpaste.net/show/fd0cb2aa24e2
2015-11-19T00:01:46Z cagmz: I'm scanning tokens in and adding them to a list if they are unique, but I want to be able to check the list's (car) values before adding it
2015-11-19T00:04:16Z cagmz: maybe due to the nature of recursion, i can only see vars within my current stack? would this mean thatI have to build the whole list of tokens first, and check the # of duplicates later, once I return teh list?
2015-11-19T00:07:42Z jcowan: You can use member if you don't mind O(n^2) processing time
2015-11-19T00:08:05Z jcowan: Otherwise a hash table or set is your friend, and convert to a list at the end
2015-11-19T00:08:31Z cagmz: ok, but how do I even reference the list I'm building from within the function?
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2015-11-19T00:13:26Z jcowan: Well, you are building it by consing, I assume, so at any time you'll have the current list to cons onto (or not)
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2015-11-19T00:21:27Z cagmz: sorry for my incessant questions but, how can I cons the actual value of "tok" and not the string tok? I get ((tok . 1) (tok . 1) (tok . 1) (tok . 1) (tok . 1)) if I do cons '(tok . 1)
2015-11-19T00:24:18Z cagmz: https://bpaste.net/show/c7c2a51a237c
2015-11-19T00:25:19Z cagmz: i got it. I nested cons and got it to work
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2015-11-19T17:40:56Z cagmz: if I have an a-list like '((x b) (y a) (z c)), how do I access x, or y, or z?
2015-11-19T17:41:46Z dpk: you want a mapping from values to keys? or just a list of keys?
2015-11-19T17:41:57Z dpk: (map car the-alist) will give you the latter
2015-11-19T17:42:11Z cagmz: ah ok
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2015-11-19T20:50:08Z michaeloneill: http://stackoverflow.com/questions/33813973/scheme-beta-reduction-challenge
2015-11-19T20:50:08Z rudybot: http://teensy.info/pSLDP8jyaD
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2015-11-20T01:51:57Z JX7P: i'm implementing a Scheme interpreter in C++14 and am concerned about how first-class continuations may be implemented. does anyone here know of any resources that may assist me?
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2015-11-20T02:06:57Z pjb: JX7P: Lisp in Small Pieces   http://pagesperso-systeme.lip6.fr/Christian.Queinnec/WWW/LiSP.html  http://pagesperso-systeme.lip6.fr/Christian.Queinnec/Books/LiSP-2ndEdition-2006Dec11.tgz
2015-11-20T02:06:58Z rudybot: http://teensy.info/V109FE2ERI
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2015-11-20T08:59:45Z kephra: JX7P, http://dpaste.com/18MSH98 <- thats the low level code of my interpreter
2015-11-20T09:02:07Z kephra: JX7P, http://dpaste.com/3P01BB8 <- and the high level part for dynamic wind
2015-11-20T09:04:25Z kephra: var cont = { cont:code.slice(0), pile:this.p, np:this.p.slice(0) }; <- a continuation is a copy of the activation stack (code.slice(0)) and a copy of the current parameter pile (this.p.slice(0))
2015-11-20T09:05:34Z kephra: JX7P, so its basically a snapshot of current active bytecode
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2015-11-20T11:34:14Z BustyLoliChan: Hey guys... actually I'm trying to do a comparison of (string=? (thing-name thing) "thing")
2015-11-20T11:34:15Z BustyLoliChan: <BustyLoliChan> but when I do I get an error where I have a contract violation expected string? given: 'ITEM-NAME
2015-11-20T11:34:15Z BustyLoliChan: <BustyLoliChan> how do I actually compare these things?
2015-11-20T11:34:44Z BustyLoliChan: :/... that's not how I meant to paste that... and for that I am sorry. What I wanted to say was! In Racket I'm trying to do a comparison of (string=? (thing-name thing) "thing") but when I do I get an error where I have a contract violation expected string? given: 'ITEM-NAME how do I actually compare these things?
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2015-11-20T12:38:17Z taylan: BustyLoliChan: looks like 'thing-name' doesn't return a string.  what does it return?
2015-11-20T12:38:30Z taylan: well, I'm not sure how to interpret 'ITEM-NAME which is apparently what it returns...
2015-11-20T12:38:41Z taylan: does that mean it returns a symbol?
2015-11-20T12:39:35Z taylan: hmm, yeah, apparently such a Racket error message means that (thing-name thing) returns the symbol ITEM-NAME
2015-11-20T12:39:45Z taylan: BustyLoliChan: you can use symbol->string to turn a symbol into a string
2015-11-20T12:40:16Z taylan: BustyLoliChan: so either (symbol=? (thing-name thing) 'thing) or (string=? (symbol->string (thing-name thing)) "thing") will work
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2015-11-20T13:48:12Z JX7P: thank you pjb and kephra for your suggestions. i think i now understand the fundaments
2015-11-20T13:51:25Z JX7P: so, in essence, the continuation is comparable to a jmp_buf - except the control stack is also saved into the structure
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2015-11-20T14:27:48Z jcowan: JXP7:  In essence, yes.  Or to look at it another way, in the presence of call/cc the call stack becomes a call *tree*, with the ability to swing from branch to branch.
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2015-11-20T19:03:28Z kephra: JX7P, one might implement call-cc as a setjump/longjump + stack in a scheme compiler
2015-11-20T19:03:47Z kephra: but you might want to ask in #chicken first how they do it
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2015-11-20T22:02:47Z Parenthesis: Which scheme to use, to extend my C game?
2015-11-20T22:06:04Z jcowan: What matters to you most, small or fast?
2015-11-20T22:06:43Z jcowan: Parenthesis: ^^
2015-11-20T22:07:20Z Parenthesis: I don't know. But at least maintained and not completely dead :D
2015-11-20T22:07:47Z Parenthesis: So you would say small = chibi, fast = chicken?
2015-11-20T22:08:20Z pjb: Parenthesis: are you fixed on scheme? I would advise ecl (libecl.so).
2015-11-20T22:08:28Z Parenthesis: ecl?
2015-11-20T22:08:41Z pjb: Embeddable Common Lisp.
2015-11-20T22:08:57Z Parenthesis: i don't know CL. Its sheer size and complexety scared me off.
2015-11-20T22:09:01Z jcowan: That's a reasonable option for CL
2015-11-20T22:09:13Z jcowan: https://wingolog.org/archives/2013/01/07/an-opinionated-guide-to-scheme-implementations  <-- good post on which Scheme to use for what
2015-11-20T22:09:13Z rudybot: http://teensy.info/sbR7vrszxw
2015-11-20T22:09:22Z jcowan: I would say Chibi is a good option for embedding
2015-11-20T22:09:31Z pjb: https://common-lisp.net/project/ecl/
2015-11-20T22:11:05Z jcowan: s/good option/good Scheme option/
2015-11-20T22:12:12Z pjb: you can say good option.  Compared to lua…
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2015-11-20T22:12:51Z Parenthesis: lua is wicked fast. Im sure it beats all scheme interpreters.
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2015-11-20T22:13:16Z jcowan: But there is a price: it is very restrictive compared to either Scheme or CL.  Not stupidly restrictive, but still
2015-11-20T22:13:29Z pjb: Parenthesis: so, ecl has a compiler that generates C code compiled with gcc, so basically, the code you write in Common Lisp with ecl can run as fast as C code.
2015-11-20T22:13:55Z pjb: But you may also just use the byte-code compiler if you don't want to rely on the external gcc.
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2015-11-20T22:14:17Z Parenthesis: pjb: how does it stand up to chicken or gambit? I don't know how benefitial it would be to jump into CL.
2015-11-20T22:14:37Z jcowan: They run "as fast as C" too, but they have to generate rather contorted C
2015-11-20T22:14:47Z pjb: Well, this you will have to explore by yourself. I find CL quite benefitial in general.
2015-11-20T22:14:48Z Parenthesis: I could also move the core game logic from C, to switch to a full blown scheme/CL
2015-11-20T22:14:54Z jcowan: High-level languages offer high-level optimizations.
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2015-11-20T22:15:11Z pjb: There are hundreds of CL libraries.
2015-11-20T22:15:15Z jcowan: Indeed.
2015-11-20T22:15:33Z jcowan: IDK which of the fast Schemes has the best embedding story
2015-11-20T22:15:55Z pjb: Parenthesis: actually, once you have your game engine well integrated with ecl, you can program most of the game in CL, don't consider it just a "scripting" language.
2015-11-20T22:16:13Z pjb: Parenthesis: kind of like emacs is written by a core of C code, but is really mostly emacs lisp code.
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2015-11-20T23:32:34Z wasamasa: guile looks most convenient when it comes to embedding it into an application
2015-11-20T23:32:43Z wasamasa: I'd use chicken for the opposite, embedding C into my scheme code
2015-11-20T23:32:50Z wasamasa: no idea about chibi
2015-11-20T23:33:44Z wasamasa: you can of course do it the other way around, but to me it looks like that's how they work best
2015-11-20T23:33:50Z jcowan: chibi is designed for embedding and is much much smaller than guile
2015-11-20T23:34:17Z jcowan: slower too, obvs, but chibi is fast as tiny Schemes go
2015-11-20T23:35:24Z jcowan: precisely because it is bytecode rather than codewalker
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2015-11-20T23:36:05Z wasamasa: you'll beat any embedded python/ruby anyways
2015-11-20T23:36:27Z jcowan: In space, certainly
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2015-11-20T23:36:47Z wasamasa: and in speed
2015-11-20T23:36:51Z jcowan: in speed, perhaps comparable, although chibi has inherently more function (call/cc)
2015-11-20T23:37:41Z wasamasa: as for whether it's that relevant, you should be using them for the less time-critical logic...
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2015-11-21T01:14:50Z BustyLoliChan: taylan, I think I tried  (equal? (thing-name thing) 'thing) but it didn't work
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2015-11-21T06:50:45Z scrmpy_: I'm trying to use chibi-scheme in my program and I'm finding it pretty confusing. is there any more detailed guide than the basic intro on the chibi-scheme site?
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2015-11-21T07:37:08Z taylan: BustyLoliChan: that should certainly work if (thing-name thing) returns the symbol `thing'
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2015-11-21T09:34:45Z scrmpy_: any here used chibi-scheme before?
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2015-11-21T09:51:25Z taylan: scrmpy_: a little bit, to test my R7RS libraries
2015-11-21T09:51:47Z scrmpy_: were you using the C interface?
2015-11-21T09:52:11Z taylan: nope
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2015-11-21T21:29:37Z names: rsully petercommand tristero juanfra jkraemer ByronJohnson SHODAN LeoNerd mario-goulart sssi`` _0x5eb_ clog samw3 cdidd failproofshark wattenbarger scoofy choas evhan wailord dsp dbohdan m1dnight_ twem2 ecraven githogori dancer_ rx80 zhaoyeming teiresias ft joneshf-laptop_ hive-mind ivan\ snow_bckspc foof stasku kwmiebach jackdaniel taylan ELLIOTTCABLE asumu mrowe_away taij33n- low-profile sytse PinealGlandOptic dsp__ wingo ggherdov Tenhi_ Jasu_M cross
2015-11-21T21:29:37Z names: acarrico cmatei nisstyre Mike57 r0kc4t_ ineiros diginet finnrobi jxanthony lloda stephe samth NNaNDude dpk greghendershott vikraman nchambers balkamos cojy abbe kephra seg DerGuteMoritz defanor ozzloy dTal Neet dan64 cartwright phcrist zbigniew copec add^_ tm512 strtok snits henrytill cjh`_ jrdnull emmanueloga strmpnk jyc Riviera narendraj9 haasn fizzie Blkt cataska mlaine kbtr_ renopt caolanm antoszka akkad b4283 drdo carc wasamasa luxbock eMBee C-Keen
2015-11-21T21:29:37Z names: fadein mach fikusz GGMethos tessier rudybot nitrix eagleflo emma moredhel fgudin Tbone139 tstc stamourv SirDayBat ec\ Kryo Octophore` vifino benaiah joast XTL gf3 keemyb stux|work Tenhi mikeyhc dualbus cibs gabot Razz
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2015-11-21T21:39:16Z jeffrin: hello world
2015-11-21T21:39:30Z jeffrin: how to execute a .scm file
2015-11-21T21:40:07Z ecraven: jeffrin: with which Scheme?
2015-11-21T21:40:13Z ecraven: m reaver
2015-11-21T21:42:19Z jeffrin: MIT scheme
2015-11-21T21:42:58Z jeffrin: ecraven: MIT scheme
2015-11-21T21:43:23Z ecraven: mit-scheme --load /path/to/file.scm might work
2015-11-21T21:45:03Z jcowan: THere are those who Scheme, and those who are schemed against
2015-11-21T21:46:46Z jeffrin: ecraven: it typically worked ... thanks
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2015-11-23T09:00:55Z names: ccl-logbot m1dnight_ neoncontrails LucyParsons nee` alezost duper Qudit314159 Raimondi mbuf cdidd ArneBab jsgrant- aap_ excelsior luxbock leppie nilg agumonkey mach yrdz hive-mind haroldwu jyc nowhere_man_ GGMethos pjb dxtr turbofail jsgrant NaNDude kephra cjh` stux|work wingo JX7P SirDayBat kbtr_ DerGuteMoritz r0kc4t_ twem2 DGASAU Kruppe profess jrslepak cibs mlaine henrytill strtok zhaoyeming scoofy ByronJohnson aeth TheRealPygo dsp_ zbigniew saul
2015-11-23T09:00:55Z names: snits Guest87221 samw3 gabot copec renopt_ gnomon_ ozzloy foof` ft lloda` crtstuff _sjs chishiki averell torpig shardz rotty yosafbridge cky ski z0d chu Saeren_ micro` tephra_ Khisanth ohama BustyLoliChan igajsin1 dmiles_afk vishesh weinholt rsully petercommand tristero juanfra jkraemer SHODAN LeoNerd mario-goulart sssi`` _0x5eb_ clog failproofshark wattenbarger choas evhan wailord dbohdan ecraven dancer_ rx80 teiresias joneshf-laptop_ ivan\
2015-11-23T09:00:55Z names: snow_bckspc stasku kwmiebach jackdaniel taylan ELLIOTTCABLE asumu mrowe taij33n- low-profile sytse PinealGlandOptic dsp__ ggherdov Jasu_M cross acarrico cmatei nisstyre Mike57 ineiros diginet finnrobi jxanthony stephe samth dpk greghendershott vikraman nchambers balkamos cojy abbe seg defanor dTal Neet dan64 cartwright phcrist add^_ tm512 jrdnull emmanueloga strmpnk Riviera narendraj9 haasn fizzie Blkt cataska caolanm antoszka akkad b4283 drdo carc
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2015-11-23T12:54:37Z Parenthesis: Is there a fast scheme out there, with hotpatching support?
2015-11-23T12:55:43Z taylan: how fast is "fast" and for which operations does it need to be fast?  and what exactly does "hotpatching" entail?
2015-11-23T12:57:35Z Parenthesis: E.g. fixing/changing a function and make the changes available in the running program. And i mean faster-than-interpreter fast.
2015-11-23T12:59:25Z taylan: Guile uses bytecode and any top-level binding (including non-public bindings of modules) can be swapped out at run-time
2015-11-23T13:00:44Z taylan: if I'm not mistaken Guile beats both Chicken and Racket in the hotswapping aspect, but you might want to ask a Chickeneer and a Racketeer too
2015-11-23T13:01:03Z mario-goulart: #t wrt CHICKEN.
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2015-11-23T13:15:34Z C-Keen: yeah, guile might be the best bet there or maybe chibi?
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2015-11-23T13:18:33Z Parenthesis: Never used Chibi, but it looks fun to embedd. If its VMs performance is decent i may prefer it due to its license.
2015-11-23T13:21:47Z C-Keen: You'll have to do some measurements to answer that
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2015-11-23T13:41:18Z taylan: I thought Chibi is an interpreter but I'm not sure now
2015-11-23T13:41:56Z taylan: I heard it's reasonably fast anyway
2015-11-23T13:42:31Z taylan: but you should really really just run some benchmarks representative of the kind of code you mean to write in the implementation, if you want to know
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2015-11-23T13:43:26Z C-Keen: taylan: It compiles to bytecode and runs it in a vm
2015-11-23T13:43:55Z taylan: ah ok
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2015-11-23T20:40:09Z jeffrin: hello all
2015-11-23T20:41:03Z jeffrin: is there any online course that teaches scheme ?
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2015-11-23T20:41:34Z spew: http://ocw.mit.edu/courses/electrical-engineering-and-computer-science/6-001-structure-and-interpretation-of-computer-programs-spring-2005/video-lectures/
2015-11-23T20:41:34Z rudybot: http://teensy.info/NOLCc0OfzG
2015-11-23T20:41:37Z spew: the classics!
2015-11-23T20:41:53Z C-Keen: there is a reading list at schemers.org
2015-11-23T20:41:57Z C-Keen: also videos
2015-11-23T20:41:59Z spew: not the best for learning scheme actually, but still great!
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2015-11-23T20:44:41Z jeffrin: anyway thanks :)
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2015-11-23T20:57:18Z jeffrin: is there any course that give certificate ?
2015-11-23T20:58:32Z C-Keen: as in "certified schemer"? I don't know. Maybe some universities do give credit points for a lecture of theirs but that strongly depends on your context I guess
2015-11-23T21:01:51Z jeffrin: C-Keen : anyway thanks .... but what is your opinion about  video lectures at MIT
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2015-11-23T21:04:08Z wasamasa: having scheme on your CV is certificate enough
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2015-11-23T21:07:25Z jeffrin: :)
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2015-11-23T21:25:28Z jeffrin: https://www.edx.org/course/introduction-functional-programming-delftx-fp101x-0
2015-11-23T21:25:28Z rudybot: http://teensy.info/N3HhJH1Rkq
2015-11-23T21:26:48Z jeffrin: rudybot: same pinch  related
2015-11-23T21:26:49Z rudybot: jeffrin: takes a pinch of snuff
2015-11-23T21:40:14Z jeffrin: bye all
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2015-11-24T20:17:13Z mat4: hello, how are values of fixed size (word width) handled in Scheme ?
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2015-11-24T20:24:08Z jcowan: Basically either using fixed-width vectors or using bytevectors that are logically chunked to the size you want.
2015-11-24T20:24:18Z dpk: mat4: see SRFI 4 for one solution
2015-11-24T20:24:40Z mat4: thanks
2015-11-24T20:24:56Z jcowan: That's the fixed-width vector solution
2015-11-24T20:25:15Z jcowan: But when you pull data out of the vectors, it sproinnngs back to being an ordinary Scheme number
2015-11-24T20:25:21Z jcowan: What Scheme are you using?
2015-11-24T20:25:42Z mat4: Chicken scheme
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2015-11-24T20:41:03Z jcowan: Okay, then, srfi-4 is what you want, provided you really are dealing in vectors.  64-bit build?
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2015-11-25T07:50:38Z taylan: JX7P: pills against speech defects?
2015-11-25T07:50:49Z taylan: nice logo though!
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2015-11-25T08:30:53Z kephra: JX7P, does that help if you allergic against braces?
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2015-11-25T15:20:06Z strtok: rudybot: (define (prime? x) (define (prime-iter x i) (cond ((eq? (modulo x i) 0) #f) ((eq? i 1) #t) (else (prime-iter x (- i 1))) )) (prime-iter x (integer-sqrt x))
2015-11-25T15:20:09Z rudybot: strtok: I'm reading SICP, and I need to create a test(good-enough?) to check if the square root calculation is accurate. I call sqrt-iter like this: (sqrt-iter 1.0 5.0 9.0). But, then I get a zerodivision error. I can't figure out why
2015-11-25T15:20:59Z strtok: rudybot: (define (prime? x) (define (prime-iter x i) (cond ((eq? (modulo x i) 0) #f) ((eq? i 1) #t) (else (prime-iter x (- i 1))) )) (prime-iter x (integer-sqrt x)))
2015-11-25T15:20:59Z rudybot: strtok: your sandbox is ready
2015-11-25T15:20:59Z rudybot: strtok: Done.
2015-11-25T15:21:02Z strtok: weird
2015-11-25T15:21:16Z strtok: with the syntax error, rudybot just responded with some quote
2015-11-25T15:22:03Z jcowan: Yeah, that's what you get if he doesn't recognize what you're saying
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2015-11-25T15:49:51Z taylan: strtok: you can force Scheme evaluation via the eval command of rudybot
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2015-11-25T15:50:18Z taylan: rudybot: eval (bad (syntax)
2015-11-25T15:50:18Z rudybot: taylan: your sandbox is ready
2015-11-25T15:50:18Z rudybot: taylan: error: eval:1:0: read: expected a `)' to close `('
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2015-11-25T15:53:59Z strtok: taylan: yeah. i figured that out
2015-11-25T15:54:18Z strtok: thanks!
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2015-11-26T01:46:07Z Tbone139: dammit, racket! I did (random 2) as a sanity-check and got 1 ten times in a row before trying a bunch of other numbers, then finally getting a 0 from another try of 2
2015-11-26T01:54:22Z samw3: Tbone139: https://xkcd.com/221/
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2015-11-26T11:55:39Z m1dnight_: Im using geiser but when I have an exp in my buffer (e.g., (define x 5)) and I evaluate it with C-C M-r the variable is unbound in the repl?
2015-11-26T11:55:48Z m1dnight_: How can I evaluate an expression and put the bindings in the repl?
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2015-11-26T12:36:41Z m1dnight_: Nvm, I switched to racket mode! :)
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2015-11-26T17:06:19Z strtok: rudybot: (define (make-primes n) (define (make-primes-iter l) (cond ((empty? l) '()) (else (cons (first l) (make-primes-iter (filter (lambda (y) (not (eq? (modulo y (first l)) 0))) l)))) ) ) (make-primes-iter (range 2 n)))
2015-11-26T17:06:20Z rudybot: strtok: Done.
2015-11-26T17:06:27Z strtok: rudybot: (make-primes 100)
2015-11-26T17:06:27Z rudybot: strtok: ; Value: '(2 3 5 7 11 13 17 19 23 29 31 37 41 43 47 53 59 61 67 71 73 79 83 89 97)
2015-11-26T17:07:52Z strtok: so, this function is pretty inefficient because each time it recurses it creates a new (smaller) copy of a a list I assume. Do implementations (racket?) optimize the use of immutable lists like this?
2015-11-26T17:07:58Z gnomon: strtok, for extra credit, implement Pritchard's sublinear segmented wheel sieve!
2015-11-26T17:08:24Z strtok: that sounds fun :D
2015-11-26T17:08:38Z gnomon: INDEED
2015-11-26T17:09:08Z gnomon: Or Bengalloun's incremental sieve.  (Extra-er credit: augment Bengalloun's sieve with a wheel structure.)
2015-11-26T17:09:39Z strtok: the only reason i implemented a sieve is for project euler stuff
2015-11-26T17:10:42Z gnomon: holy what
2015-11-26T17:10:51Z strtok: wat
2015-11-26T17:10:52Z gnomon: That sieve uses MODULO?
2015-11-26T17:11:13Z strtok: sure
2015-11-26T17:11:19Z gnomon: welp
2015-11-26T17:11:42Z gnomon: If you're seeking efficiency, first try implementating Eratosthene's sieve.
2015-11-26T17:12:11Z strtok: the efficiency i'm asking about isn't related to the sieve algorithm. it's more my use of immutable lists when recursing
2015-11-26T17:12:34Z strtok: rudybot would run out of memory before hitting CPU limits, for example
2015-11-26T17:12:42Z strtok: rudybot: (make-primes 10000)
2015-11-26T17:12:42Z rudybot: strtok: ; Value: '(2 3 5 7 11 13 17 19 23 29 31 37 41 43 47 53 59 61 67 71 73 79 83 89 97 101 103 107 109 113 127 131 137 139 149 151 157 163 167 173 179 181 191 193 197 199 211 223 227 229 233 239 241 251 257 263 269 271 277 281 283 293 307 311 313 317 331 337 347 349 353 359 367 373 379 383 389 397 401 409 419 421 431 433 439 443 449 457 461 463 467 479 487 491 499 503 509 521 523 541 547 557 563 569 571 577 587 593 599 601
2015-11-26T17:12:44Z strtok: or not
2015-11-26T17:12:49Z strtok: rudybot: (make-primes 100000)
2015-11-26T17:12:50Z rudybot: strtok: error: evaluator: terminated (out-of-memory)
2015-11-26T17:12:52Z strtok: there
2015-11-26T17:12:52Z strtok: :D
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2015-11-26T17:13:25Z gnomon: strtok, so how about implementing your list of candidate numbers as something other than a list?
2015-11-26T17:15:35Z strtok: right. i got that.
2015-11-26T17:17:00Z strtok: my intention in asking here is that maybe there's optimizations i do not know about that scheme implementations implement with these immutable lists, or maybe there are patterns in solving these kinds of problems that are different than the patterns i would implement if i were implementing it in say C++
2015-11-26T17:17:12Z strtok: i could easily go look up the hash set or mutable list docs in racket
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2015-11-27T01:22:55Z zacts: hi schemers
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2015-11-27T01:25:39Z nchambers: hello zacts
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2015-11-27T01:53:09Z nchambers: what does begin do?
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2015-11-27T02:16:40Z zacts: nchambers: I think the scheme reference manuals or R4RS or whatever describe it, let's see if I can find a link
2015-11-27T02:16:43Z zacts: :-)
2015-11-27T02:17:30Z zacts: nchambers: https://www.cs.cmu.edu/Groups/AI/html/r4rs/r4rs_6.html#SEC36
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2015-11-27T02:17:39Z zacts: ^ from the r4rs scheme standard
2015-11-27T02:18:26Z nchambers: zacts: thanks!
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2015-11-27T02:20:33Z zacts: sure
2015-11-27T02:20:34Z zacts: :-)
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2015-11-27T15:56:53Z PineauCharenteis: Is scheme useful for learning lambda calculus?
2015-11-27T15:57:33Z taylan: sorta kinda.  you could also just learn LC directly though, because it's much more minimal
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2015-11-27T16:03:41Z PineauCharenteis: I guess scheme kind of forces you to pick up on lambda notation
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2015-11-27T16:04:01Z antoszka: Not really.
2015-11-27T16:04:05Z PineauCharenteis: stuff like (+ x (functor y))
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2015-11-27T16:07:40Z taylan: pineaucharentais: prefix notation isn't lambda notation, and you don't generally use functors in Scheme
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2015-11-27T16:09:28Z pineaucharentais: Ha, okay
2015-11-27T16:09:39Z pineaucharentais: It would appear I'm just abusing terminology I've heard in passing then
2015-11-27T16:09:43Z pineaucharentais: :D
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2015-11-27T16:18:32Z ggole: Scheme is quite some distance from minimal LC.
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2015-11-27T16:18:57Z ggole: But you can restrict yourself to single-argument lambda, application and variables easily enough.
2015-11-27T16:23:45Z pineaucharentais: how to design computer programs :)
2015-11-27T16:24:04Z pineaucharentais: This should be a sensible text for a novice
2015-11-27T16:29:46Z strtok: just go straight to SICP
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2015-11-27T22:05:01Z RonRichie: hey there, got a question... where do i find scheme compiler? or more like where to i run/code in scheme? this might sound silly but im not familiar with this language but would like to learn, by googling it doesmt seem to be obvious where this language even runs :-/ anyone please?
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2015-11-28T00:21:18Z flyzen: i tried reading sicp. it sucked. is toacp any better, less academic and actually practical and useful? thanks guys
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2015-11-28T00:54:39Z Riastradh: flyzen: The `academic' lessons are practical and useful, but maybe in a different sense from what you have in mind -- neither will teach you the details of how to install Ruby on Rails and write a web app.
2015-11-28T00:55:08Z Riastradh: (I assume by `toacp' you mean Knuth's TAOCP, but perhaps you mean something else -- if so, please specify.)
2015-11-28T00:55:18Z Riastradh: flyzen: So what does `practical' mean to you?
2015-11-28T00:57:03Z wasamasa: food is practical for trolls
2015-11-28T00:57:11Z flyzen: Riastradh: yeah, knuth's taocp
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2015-11-28T05:59:39Z 
2015-11-28T05:59:39Z names: ccl-logbot Guest66483 ecraven Qudit314159 snits LeoNerd narendraj9 _0x5eb_ wasamasa haroldwu_ failproo1shark tstc` tessier_1 tessier__ juanfra strmpnk_ psy_ emacsoma` ASau`` taylan nilg sethalves pjb` lloda` zacts zirmann agumonkey lolcow sytse_ vifino _sjs_ devhydraz DGASAU` abbe_ hzjd LucyParsons zephyrfalcon ArneBab aap karswell jsgrant- nugnuts hive-mind mario-goulart bb010g ELLIOTTCABLE wattenbarger1 stephe emmanueloga z0d kephra oleo fadein_ stasku
2015-11-28T05:59:39Z names: Neet NaNDude {dpk} cataska greghendershott carc balkamos asumu phcrist antoszka ggherdov samth shardz jyc Riviera Blkt finnrobi jrslepak taij33n add^_ bjz ivan\ eagleflo emma rx80 chishiki dualbus seg mrowe_away fizzie mach ec\_ fgudin kbtr githogori akkad GGMethos caolanm C-Keen stux|work defanor evhan kwmiebach mikeyhc renopt_ rudybot cartwright torpig nisstyre Razz keemyb XTL benaiah Octophore` dTal ineiros dbohdan choas SHODAN vishesh Saeren_ chu
2015-11-28T05:59:39Z names: copec gabot saul cjh` larion tm512 fikusz ozzloy profess rsully duper dsp- wingo mlaine gnomon cmatei drdo cky yosafbridge rotty zbigniew dsp TheRealPygo aeth ByronJohnson scoofy zhaoyeming strtok henrytill BustyLoliChan ir2ivps5 vikraman ohama Guest3879 r0kc4t micro`_ foof`` jkraemer_ twem2_ nchambers cojy Tbone139 DerGuteMoritz clog samw3 nowhereman dmiles_afk niklasl4 eMBee wailord snow_bckspc ft weinholt jackdaniel SirDayBat tephra petercommand yrdz`
2015-11-28T05:59:39Z names: cdidd ski teiresias low-profile PinealGlandOptic Jasu_M cross Mike57 diginet jxanthony dan64 b4283 nitrix moredhel stamourv Tenhi
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2015-11-28T17:55:16Z shrewm: how did scheme get this popular
2015-11-28T17:56:29Z nchambers: I was told there was beer
2015-11-28T17:56:38Z nchambers: I stayed for the pizza
2015-11-28T17:57:30Z shrewm: i guess it's not the 4 person # on efnet it was 20 years ago
2015-11-28T17:58:11Z shrewm: well, come sit on grandpas lap and let me tell you how it was back then
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2015-11-28T17:58:23Z shrewm: when everyoen was afraid of garbage collecters and freed memory by hand!
2015-11-28T17:58:38Z nchambers: :D
2015-11-28T17:58:47Z nchambers: oh god... hes talking about C
2015-11-28T17:59:08Z shrewm: and they hid from recursion behind whiles
2015-11-28T17:59:33Z shrewm: ANSI C, to be exact
2015-11-28T17:59:55Z nchambers: back when auto was for memory management
2015-11-28T18:01:17Z shrewm: we kept everything on the stack and that's the way we liked it
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2015-11-29T13:41:47Z names: ByronJohnson scoofy zhaoyeming strtok henrytill ir2ivps5 vikraman ohama Guest3879 r0kc4t micro`_ foof`` jkraemer_ twem2_ nchambers cojy Tbone139 DerGuteMoritz clog samw3 dmiles_afk eMBee wailord snow_bckspc ft jackdaniel SirDayBat tephra petercommand yrdz` cdidd ski teiresias low-profile PinealGlandOptic Jasu_M cross Mike57 diginet jxanthony dan64 b4283 nitrix moredhel stamourv Tenhi cmatei gnomon mlaine wingo dsp- duper rsully profess ozzloy fikusz
2015-11-29T13:41:47Z names: tm512 larion cjh` gabot copec chu Saeren_ vishesh SHODAN choas dbohdan ineiros dTal Octophore benaiah XTL keemyb Razz nisstyre torpig cartwright rudybot renopt_ mikeyhc kwmiebach evhan defanor stux|work caolanm GGMethos githogori kbtr fgudin ec\_ mach fizzie mrowe_away seg dualbus chishiki rx80 emma eagleflo ivan\ bjz add^_ taij33n jrslepak finnrobi Blkt Riviera jyc shardz samth ggherdov antoszka phcrist asumu balkamos carc greghendershott {dpk} Neet
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2015-11-29T21:34:03Z nchambers: what does quasiquote do?
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2015-11-29T21:37:10Z wasamasa: it's like quote, but allows you to stop quoting at specified places
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2015-11-29T21:40:55Z nchambers: ah
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2015-11-29T21:41:16Z wasamasa: so, `(foo ,bar) is roughly equivalent to (list 'foo bar)
2015-11-29T21:41:32Z wasamasa: , being unquote
2015-11-29T21:41:54Z wasamasa: another interesting feature is that there's ,@ for splicing an unquoted expression into the list
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2015-11-29T21:42:11Z nchambers: hrmmm interesting
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2015-11-29T23:58:25Z rm-r: hello
2015-11-29T23:58:36Z rm-r: C is compiled to assembly code, next that asm code is making a elf, how scheme guile doing this ?
2015-11-29T23:58:36Z rm-r: its translating to assembler or what ?
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2015-11-30T09:56:04Z names: jrslepak ivan\ juanfra_ vishesh zacts benaiah gabot eagleflo kbtr mlaine githogori ozzloy Tbone139 mrowe_away joneshf-laptop SHODAN cjh` cky fikusz kephra mikeyhc duper evhan fizzie` dbohdan_ choas_ fgudin_ chu tessier_ failproofshark dsp-_ DGASAU`` nowhereman lloda tm512 taylan rsully yosafbridge dsp TheRealPygo aeth ByronJohnson scoofy strtok henrytill ohama Guest3879 micro`_ foof`` twem2_ clog samw3 eMBee snow_bckspc ft jackdaniel SirDayBat tephra
2015-11-30T09:56:04Z names: petercommand yrdz` cdidd ski teiresias low-profile PinealGlandOptic Jasu_M cross Mike57 jxanthony nitrix moredhel cmatei torpig renopt_ ec\_ dualbus add^_ Blkt Riviera jyc shardz samth ggherdov antoszka greghendershott {dpk} Neet z0d emmanueloga stephe wattenbarger1 crtstuff sytse_ sethalves strmpnk tstc` haroldwu_ _0x5eb_ LeoNerd Guest66483 haasn trystero joast saul Khisanth excelsior bb010g metaf5 wasamasa blubjr shrewm niklasl4 akkad Tenhi hive-mind
2015-11-30T09:56:04Z names: NaNDude cibs C-Keen weinholt gnomon chishiki leppie agumonkey rx80 tessier _sjs finnrobi ir2ivps5 Kryo r0kc4t nchambers taij33n DerGuteMoritz dmiles_afk fadein zbigniew
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2015-11-30T15:33:24Z names: mlaine githogori ozzloy Tbone139 mrowe_away joneshf-laptop SHODAN cjh` yosafbridge dsp TheRealPygo aeth ByronJohnson scoofy strtok henrytill ohama micro`_ foof`` twem2_ clog samw3 eMBee snow_bckspc ft jackdaniel SirDayBat tephra petercommand yrdz` cdidd ski teiresias low-profile PinealGlandOptic Jasu_M cross Mike57 jxanthony nitrix moredhel cmatei torpig renopt_ ec\_ dualbus add^_ Blkt Riviera jyc shardz samth ggherdov antoszka greghendershott {dpk} Neet
2015-11-30T15:33:24Z names: z0d emmanueloga stephe wattenbarger1 crtstuff sytse sethalves strmpnk tstc` _0x5eb_ LeoNerd beagles haasn trystero joast saul Khisanth excelsior bb010g metaf5 wasamasa blubjr shrewm niklasl4 akkad Tenhi hive-mind NaNDude cibs C-Keen weinholt gnomon chishiki leppie rx80 tessier _sjs finnrobi ir2ivps5 Kryo r0kc4t nchambers taij33n DerGuteMoritz dmiles_afk fadein zbigniew rsully taylan tm512 lloda nowhereman dsp-_ failproofshark tessier_ chu fgudin choas_
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2015-11-30T19:05:00Z ecraven: hm. why do the titlecase tables in the new srfi only cover a very few scripts?
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2015-11-30T19:16:20Z jcowan: ecraven: Because titlecase characters appear only in Latin and Greek.  You can titlecase Armenian text, but it just means the first letter of each (pseudo-)word is uppercased and the rest lowercased.
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2015-11-30T19:16:51Z jcowan: The majority of scripts are caseless and titlecase does nothing to them, of course.
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2015-11-30T19:22:46Z ASau: Given that distinction between capital and regular letters appeared quite late, there's no wonder.
2015-11-30T19:23:22Z ASau: (Though I disagree about "majority of scripts.")
2015-11-30T19:24:28Z ASau: (Basically, majority of scripts fall into three categories: Latin-based, Cyrillic, and Arabic.)
2015-11-30T19:26:04Z {dpk}: that's … not very many scripts
2015-11-30T19:26:42Z jcowan: Ah, a terminological problem.  In Unicodese, "script" is the union of all closely related graphic symbols, so Latin is one script, Cyrillic another, and Arabic a third.
2015-11-30T19:26:58Z jcowan: They are used by many different languages with different characters used for each language.
2015-11-30T19:27:14Z {dpk}: oh, i see what ASau was saying
2015-11-30T19:29:03Z ASau: {dpk}: there's quite a large number of different languages starting from Beograd to Anadyr that are written in a variant of Cyrillic.
2015-11-30T19:29:16Z jcowan: But Latin, Cyrillic, Armenian, Georgian, Deseret, Glagolitic, Cherokee and Osage are the only scripts with uppper and lower case that are already encoded, and I doubt there are any more to come.
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2015-11-30T19:29:33Z {dpk}: yeah, i see that you meant "script" as in "characters as used in a particular orthography"
2015-11-30T19:29:34Z ASau: I'm not sure about Glagolitic.
2015-11-30T19:29:44Z {dpk}: not the unicode definition jcowan gave
2015-11-30T19:30:22Z ASau: In fact, I doubt it had capital letters.
2015-11-30T19:30:56Z jcowan: It's basically just a difference of size, and the same is true of Cherokee, but Unicode encodes them separately.  After all, many Cyrillic case pairs differ only in size too.
2015-11-30T19:31:08Z jcowan: http://www.unicode.org/charts/PDF/U2C00.pdf  <-- Glagolitic code chart
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2015-11-30T19:33:38Z jcowan: I think only Croats and Czechs made a consistent distinction of size
2015-11-30T19:34:41Z ASau: The distinction is more noticable in cursive.
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2015-11-30T19:34:49Z jcowan nods.
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2015-11-30T19:35:22Z ASau: Hm.
2015-11-30T19:35:35Z ASau: Actually, capital letters appeared even later than I thought.
2015-11-30T19:37:46Z jcowan: In Latin and Greek, of course, capitals came first in inscriptions, then switched to lower case in manuscripts, and then using both at the same time
2015-11-30T19:39:07Z ASau: One of sources points that capital letters were introduced in 1708.
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2015-11-30T19:40:13Z h0wl3vvd: hello
2015-11-30T19:40:18Z blubjr: hi h0wl3vvd
2015-11-30T19:40:29Z h0wl3vvd: scheme can be used in game developemnt well ?
2015-11-30T19:41:55Z ASau: Johm Carmack prefers Racket.
2015-11-30T19:42:02Z davexunit: h0wl3vvd: sure!
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2015-11-30T19:42:26Z davexunit: lots of game programmers use Lua to provide extensibility, but you can use Scheme for this purpose as well.
2015-11-30T19:42:55Z h0wl3vvd: extensibility ?
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2015-11-30T19:43:02Z h0wl3vvd: im talking about write whole game only in scheme
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2015-11-30T19:43:08Z davexunit: you can do that, too.
2015-11-30T19:43:19Z h0wl3vvd: you know any games written in scheme
2015-11-30T19:43:20Z h0wl3vvd: ?
2015-11-30T19:43:29Z davexunit: one of my hobby projects is a game engine written in Guile Scheme http://dthompson.us/pages/software/sly.html
2015-11-30T19:43:40Z h0wl3vvd: kk
2015-11-30T19:43:47Z h0wl3vvd: if you know more games written in scheme
2015-11-30T19:43:51Z h0wl3vvd: can u give me a names
2015-11-30T19:43:57Z davexunit: I don't know any full games written in Scheme
2015-11-30T19:44:10Z h0wl3vvd: so its propably not effective to writting games in that language
2015-11-30T19:44:15Z gnomon: h0wl3vvd, I know that the 90s game Abuse use a lisp-ish as its scripting language.
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2015-11-30T19:44:31Z davexunit: h0wl3vvd: that logic makes no sense.
2015-11-30T19:44:40Z gnomon: -1s/use /used /
2015-11-30T19:44:44Z h0wl3vvd: davexunit: why ?
2015-11-30T19:44:52Z davexunit: Occulus is using Racket (a close cousin to Scheme) for programming their virtual-reality devices
2015-11-30T19:45:03Z ASau: h0wl3vvd: when you don't know the language, it is probably not effective to write anything in it.
2015-11-30T19:45:15Z ASau: h0wl3vvd: Johm Carmack chose Racket still.
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2015-11-30T19:45:37Z davexunit: Naughty Dog, a big video game company, has used various Lisps (including Racket) to build their games
2015-11-30T19:45:41Z h0wl3vvd: ASau: what ?
2015-11-30T19:45:45Z ASau: That!
2015-11-30T19:45:51Z h0wl3vvd: i dont understand
2015-11-30T19:46:15Z davexunit: that said, sure, Scheme is certainly the path less travelled when it comes to game development.
2015-11-30T19:46:17Z ASau: John Carmack is the person behind Doom, Duke Nukem, Quake and a number of other games.
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2015-11-30T19:46:23Z davexunit: Lua dominates the games industry.
2015-11-30T19:46:33Z ASau: He chose Racket to write language with his son.
2015-11-30T19:46:43Z ASau: He chose Racket to write a game with his son.
2015-11-30T19:46:49Z davexunit: but Scheme, being a good general-purpose programming language, can also be used.
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2015-11-30T19:47:19Z mario-goulart: but since it's lisp, it's not. :-)
2015-11-30T19:47:34Z ASau: :D
2015-11-30T19:48:15Z h0wl3vvd: davexunit: also be used, but not for whole games in it
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2015-11-30T19:49:24Z mario-goulart: h0wl3vvd: nevermind my joke.  It's just that there is a lot of prejudice around lisp languages.
2015-11-30T19:50:06Z h0wl3vvd: kk
2015-11-30T19:50:34Z mario-goulart: wait, are you brazilian?
2015-11-30T19:50:39Z h0wl3vvd: nah
2015-11-30T19:50:42Z davexunit: h0wl3vvd: why do you say that?
2015-11-30T19:50:45Z h0wl3vvd: brazilians write "kkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkk"
2015-11-30T19:50:47Z h0wl3vvd: ^^
2015-11-30T19:50:49Z davexunit: it seems that you don't even know Scheme
2015-11-30T19:50:49Z mario-goulart: :-D
2015-11-30T19:51:09Z davexunit: so how can you so quickly jump to the conclusion that you can't write games in Scheme?
2015-11-30T19:51:19Z h0wl3vvd: davexunit: okay thanks for opinion
2015-11-30T19:51:26Z h0wl3vvd: ill do more research
2015-11-30T19:52:01Z davexunit: what you'll find is that not that many people try to use Scheme for games, because not that many people try to use Scheme for anything.
2015-11-30T19:52:19Z davexunit: but that doesn't mean that Scheme is unfit for any particular application.
2015-11-30T19:52:26Z davexunit: it's simply not popular.
2015-11-30T19:54:21Z h0wl3vvd: okay
2015-11-30T19:55:25Z davexunit: this code https://git.dthompson.us/sly.git/blob/HEAD:/examples/2048/2048.scm
2015-11-30T19:55:34Z davexunit: made this http://dthompson.us/images/sly/2048.png
2015-11-30T19:57:03Z h0wl3vvd: i have ssl error
2015-11-30T19:57:06Z h0wl3vvd: on that your site
2015-11-30T19:57:12Z h0wl3vvd: can u paste this for me to bpaste.net ?
2015-11-30T19:57:33Z h0wl3vvd: brb
2015-11-30T19:57:34Z davexunit: I use a self-signed cert
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2015-11-30T21:31:45Z alive876: newbie, i just installed guile scheme on ubuntu. how do i run a scheme script? much thanks
2015-11-30T21:32:48Z alive876: i mean from a file
2015-11-30T21:33:15Z pjb: (load "script.scm")
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2015-11-30T21:35:36Z pjb: echo '(display "Hello World!") (newline)' > hw.scm RET guile RET (load "hw.scm") RET (quit) RET
2015-11-30T21:36:09Z wasamasa: tried `guile foobar.scm`?
2015-11-30T21:36:23Z pjb: guile --help
2015-11-30T21:37:15Z pjb: But the point is that actually chsh /usr/bin/guile RET so you would just do (load "hw.scm").
2015-11-30T21:38:54Z davexunit: alive876: the above suggestions should work, but note that for Guile has a dedicated channel at #guile
2015-11-30T21:38:59Z davexunit: s/that for/that/
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