2015-10-01T00:01:06Z kandinski: the Lambda Papers at readscheme.org are scanned images. Is there a canonical repo for searchable-text versions?
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2015-10-01T00:02:06Z kandinski: I'm specifically talking about AIM-349
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2015-10-01T05:56:09Z jivemeat: hey scheme
2015-10-01T05:56:30Z jivemeat: what does ' mean? I am not sure if I understand what not evalauating something ACTUALLY means?
2015-10-01T05:59:59Z dpk: (+ 2 2) is a list. if you enter it alone it'll be evaluated and you'll get the result 4
2015-10-01T06:00:30Z dpk: if you enter '(+ 2 2) instead, you'll get a list of three elements: the symbol + and the number 2 twice
2015-10-01T06:01:39Z jivemeat: oh so it could be said as "i want the literal values of (+ 2 2)
2015-10-01T06:02:31Z jivemeat: But when is that useful? Scheme is very.. Weird to me, I am learning it for a class.
2015-10-01T06:02:49Z dpk: Scheme code (leaving special forms like 'define' and 'lambda' aside) is evaluated by taking lists, evaluating their individual elements, and then treating the first element as a function and calling it with the rest of the elements as the arguments
2015-10-01T06:03:13Z dpk: the result of evaluating the symbol + is the function which performs addition, and numbers evaluate to themselves
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2015-10-01T06:04:24Z jivemeat: So it's a similar term to maths I reckon?
2015-10-01T06:04:29Z dpk: well, it can be useful as a shorthand notation for literal lists. much like you'd use [1, 2, 3] in Python, for instance, you can use '(1 2 3) in Scheme
2015-10-01T06:05:02Z jivemeat: But why wouldn't (1 2 3) evaluate to [1, 2 3]?
2015-10-01T06:05:16Z dpk: (1 2 3) alone is an error, because 1 is not a function
2015-10-01T06:05:27Z jivemeat: oh. Right!
2015-10-01T06:05:44Z jivemeat: If I pass a list, does it need '(list)?
2015-10-01T06:05:55Z jivemeat: or is it a function as it was passed?
2015-10-01T06:06:46Z dpk: well, the other way to construct a list is with the list function. that's what you generally use when you have a list where you need the elements evaluated. (list 1 2 x) will result in the list (1 2 3) if the value of the variable x is 3
2015-10-01T06:07:27Z dpk: whereas '(1 2 x) will give you (1 2 x), with the symbol not evaluated to its value
2015-10-01T06:07:37Z jivemeat: I have two more questions. Excuse my ignorance
2015-10-01T06:07:47Z dpk: we were all new to this once :-)
2015-10-01T06:08:28Z jivemeat: I am c++/java guy. What is a pair? I know its "two distict elements" but why aren't they just lists? I do know that lists are made up of pairs with the last element being null. But that defintion confuses me a little bit
2015-10-01T06:09:34Z dpk: right, a pair (or 'cons pair', or sometimes just 'cons') is the building block of a list. Scheme lists are linked lists
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2015-10-01T06:10:48Z jivemeat: Is it fair to say that a pair is an element of a list?
2015-10-01T06:12:01Z dpk: yes, but if you say that there's a potential for confusion. in the list (1 2 3) you could say that 2 is an element, but using that wording, the element is actually (2 3)
2015-10-01T06:12:11Z dpk: 'node' might be a better term
2015-10-01T06:12:45Z jivemeat: Okay, that is more understandable. Also, I hate to ask for code. How would one traverse a list in scheme?
2015-10-01T06:12:56Z dpk: depends what you're doing with it
2015-10-01T06:13:28Z jivemeat: If we pretended for a test program that I wanted to search a list of strings to find a given string, how would I do that?
2015-10-01T06:13:39Z jivemeat: Skipping the define and lambda aspect
2015-10-01T06:13:54Z dpk: the Scheme-y way is to write a function and use a higher-order function like map, fold, filter, etc. on it
2015-10-01T06:14:09Z jivemeat: Lack of for (int i=0; i < .. blah) kills me
2015-10-01T06:14:38Z jivemeat: so equality operator would be a no go?
2015-10-01T06:14:53Z jivemeat: operation* rather
2015-10-01T06:15:09Z dpk: (filter (lambda (str) (equal? str "hello world")) the-list) finds instances of the string "hello world" in the-list
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2015-10-01T06:15:36Z dpk: using the standard list-manipulation library http://srfi.schemers.org/srfi-1/srfi-1.html
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2015-10-01T06:16:24Z jivemeat: Ty for the help :)
2015-10-01T06:16:38Z jivemeat: My last question which is sorta unrelated
2015-10-01T06:16:46Z dpk: though for simple "is this element in this list?" there's a special membership function, memv
2015-10-01T06:16:54Z dpk: (memv "hello world" the-list)
2015-10-01T06:17:44Z jivemeat: I like Scheme. It seems efficiently coded, sorta like Python. But, what exactly is it used for? Why is there demand for programmers to learn scheme aside from understanding other paradigms?
2015-10-01T06:18:05Z jivemeat: Isnt there a demand*
2015-10-01T06:18:20Z dpk: probably the main production use of Scheme these days is as a scripting language embedded in larger programs written in C (or whatever language)
2015-10-01T06:18:42Z jivemeat: Emacs :p?
2015-10-01T06:18:58Z jivemeat: My only exposure to the language prior to the course
2015-10-01T06:19:14Z dpk: there are Scheme implementations designed to be embedded like that, such as Guile (used by GNU projects like LilyPond and GnuCash) and Chibi (i don't know if anyone is using that in any major software yet)
2015-10-01T06:19:35Z jivemeat: I guess my question is then, what makes scheme good?
2015-10-01T06:19:39Z dpk: Emacs actually has its own Lisp interpreter, and its own Lisp, though there are (controversial) plans to make it use the Guile VM
2015-10-01T06:20:46Z jivemeat: Knowing somethings strong points helps me direct my study toward that particular aspect
2015-10-01T06:20:47Z dpk: it's a lightweight, but highly flexible language
2015-10-01T06:21:04Z jivemeat: How is it flexible? Sorry to play 20 questions
2015-10-01T06:21:22Z dpk: it's good for teaching how programming languages work (as in the famous CS textbook, Structure and Interpretation of Computer Programs)
2015-10-01T06:21:43Z dpk: have you learned about macros yet? i.e. define-syntax?
2015-10-01T06:22:08Z jivemeat: Not very much, more so just learning the general aspects of the language.
2015-10-01T06:22:22Z jivemeat: We're learning about 3 different types of languages this semester.
2015-10-01T06:22:46Z dpk: macros allow you to add new special forms to the language. in Java or C++ terms, it's like if you could add brand new statements like 'while' or 'if' to the language, using the language itself
2015-10-01T06:22:58Z jivemeat: How does Scheme compare to that of C, C#, C++ (or any OOB language really)?
2015-10-01T06:23:12Z jivemeat: Oh wow
2015-10-01T06:23:29Z jivemeat: I did read it is used to prototype languages and that must be why right?
2015-10-01T06:24:09Z jivemeat: But with that said, why is that? Why doesn't C have macros? That seems like a very useful function
2015-10-01T06:24:42Z dpk: yes. for that reason, and also for the reason macros are possible: because code is represented by a standard and easily-manipulable data type, lists, it's easy to generate code in the same way that most programs in all languages generate data
2015-10-01T06:26:20Z dpk: in comparison to any C-derived language, Scheme is extremely high-level. e.g. no pointers, full garbage collection, etc.
2015-10-01T06:26:35Z dpk: and strong typing
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2015-10-01T06:27:54Z jivemeat: Oh, okay that does make sense now. My last, silly, question is: Is Scheme a difficult language or am I likely just overcomplicating things? (Brackets, brackets everywhere)
2015-10-01T06:28:16Z jivemeat: It's all relative, but in general. Python is easier for beginners than say C
2015-10-01T06:28:28Z dpk: C does have macros — #define — but they work differently, because C code isn't made of C data. they're less powerful and more fiddly as a result, and using them to define complex control flow structures is generally disapproved of
2015-10-01T06:29:32Z jivemeat: But because C doesn't use C data, I am assuming it is more optimized for speed?
2015-10-01T06:29:35Z dpk: ehhhh. i don't know, honestly. Scheme is probably harder because of its lack of iteration constructs and the general tendency towards immutable data
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2015-10-01T06:32:57Z dpk: well, the best C compilers generate faster code than the best Scheme compilers, and for many reasons it's unlikely to happen that Scheme beats C in general performance tests. i don't think macros are one, since they're a compile-time thing, not a run-time thing
2015-10-01T06:33:50Z jivemeat: So just to clarify before I take off. Scheme is a strong-typed high-level language, that is very much flexible due to the way it stores data. However, because it is sorta careless about memory, it's efficieny would not be on par of a program that was written in C instead? But scheme suceeds at quickly prototyping programs and more so different programming styles?
2015-10-01T06:37:24Z dpk: not because of memory management and garbage collection, probably. a good garbage collector (of which there are, sadly, few, but the Lisp ones tend to be above-average) is faster than manually managing memory. but for other reasons like the need for run-time type checking, yes, Scheme will generally be slower than C for any given pair of production-quality implementations of those languages
2015-10-01T06:38:03Z dpk: and the flexibility is more due to the representation of code *as* data, than to the way data itself is stored
2015-10-01T06:38:06Z dpk: but apart from that, yes
2015-10-01T06:39:27Z jivemeat: Okay, my man thank you for all the help and insight. I must continue my journey into the world of Scheme, peace :)
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2015-10-01T06:40:20Z dpk: you're welcome
2015-10-01T06:40:59Z dpk: feel free to come back with more questions. i might not be around but there's always plenty of helpful people here (though not always active)
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2015-10-01T07:12:48Z zacts|pi: dpk: have you seen the stalin scheme compiler?
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2015-10-01T07:14:30Z dpk: i have. i reckon it, perhaps wrongly, impractical for production use, though it is impressive
2015-10-01T07:17:49Z zacts|pi: ah yeah
2015-10-01T07:18:07Z zacts|pi: I'm curious into learning more about it, but you mentioned the lack of optimizing scheme compilers
2015-10-01T07:18:16Z zacts|pi: (in regards to scheme versus C speed)
2015-10-01T07:18:19Z zacts|pi: anyway, bbl
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2015-10-01T07:26:13Z taylanub: for those interested, the GNU/Linux distribution GNU GuixSD, which makes very extensive use of Scheme in package management, system configuration, the init system, and more, is asking for donations: http://www.gnu.org/software/guix/donate/
2015-10-01T07:28:09Z taylanub: whoops, that's the old link
2015-10-01T07:29:20Z taylanub: looks like the page asking for money donations isn't up yet.  you can throw moneye at GNU/FSF on the meanwhile ;-)
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2015-10-01T07:34:11Z nilg: Given a list, how to randomly select one element?
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2015-10-01T07:35:29Z taylanub: nilg: (list-ref list (random (length list))).  there's no 'random' in the standards but your preferred Scheme implementation is likely to have one.
2015-10-01T07:36:42Z nilg: OK, thanks taylanub
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2015-10-01T08:24:12Z jivemeat: (define dos-list?
2015-10-01T08:24:12Z jivemeat:  (lambda (x y)
2015-10-01T08:24:12Z jivemeat:  (cond ((and (null? x) (null? y)) (display "They are not both empty!"))
2015-10-01T08:24:12Z jivemeat:  (else (display "At least 1 is empty!")))))
2015-10-01T08:24:30Z jivemeat: Why does that not work with the input (dos-list? '(1 2) '(1))
2015-10-01T08:24:53Z jivemeat: My logic seems to be, but clearly is not sound. What did I do wrong?
2015-10-01T08:25:08Z jivemeat: It only runs the else statement
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2015-10-01T08:31:47Z taylanub: jivemeat: (and (null? x) (null? y)) means both *are* null/empty
2015-10-01T08:32:00Z jivemeat: oh
2015-10-01T08:32:04Z jivemeat: okay ty
2015-10-01T08:32:05Z taylanub: (define empty? null?) :-)
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2015-10-01T09:06:43Z kephra: jivemeat, http://o3db.com/demo/dpaste.html#2AMB1MP <- you did not check all 3 conditions
2015-10-01T09:08:23Z kephra: http://o3db.com/demo/dpaste.html#1TVB117 <- here the text is right ... had to drop the not
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2015-10-01T09:30:43Z jivemeat: hey
2015-10-01T09:30:48Z jivemeat: (define dos-list?
2015-10-01T09:30:48Z jivemeat:   (lambda (x y)
2015-10-01T09:30:48Z jivemeat:     (cond ((or (null? x) (null? y) (display "1 empty!"))
2015-10-01T09:30:48Z jivemeat:            (else (display ("Nope!")))))))
2015-10-01T09:31:07Z jivemeat: why wont that compile? sorry for the copy paste, but pastebin isnt worth it this time of night
2015-10-01T09:31:15Z jivemeat: why rob data
2015-10-01T09:31:33Z jivemeat: else: not allowed as an expression
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2015-10-01T09:32:35Z jivemeat: and that moment, I figured it out. :/ sorry again
2015-10-01T09:32:52Z taylanub: yeah, you got your parentheses wrong
2015-10-01T09:33:17Z taylanub: a text editor that shows matching parentheses is highly recommended
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2015-10-01T09:33:33Z jivemeat: I'm using DrRacket
2015-10-01T09:33:41Z taylanub: also (display ("Nope!")) will try to call the string "Nope!" as a procedure
2015-10-01T09:33:46Z jivemeat: idk if thats good, but some rainbow parathensis would be nice
2015-10-01T09:34:06Z taylanub: Emacs is the master of lisp editing, but not that easy to get into
2015-10-01T09:34:25Z jivemeat: I am an emacs god
2015-10-01T09:34:30Z jivemeat: but how do I compile it?
2015-10-01T09:34:36Z taylanub: compile what?
2015-10-01T09:34:41Z jivemeat: my scheme files
2015-10-01T09:34:58Z jivemeat: well interperit I guess
2015-10-01T09:35:10Z taylanub: depends on the Scheme implementation.  I'm guessing what you really want to know is how to integrate Scheme development in Emacs?
2015-10-01T09:35:21Z taylanub: there's Geiser for Racket (and GNU Guile)
2015-10-01T09:35:49Z taylanub: so you can just hit C-M-x on a top-level expression (like the '(define ...)') and it will send it to the Scheme process
2015-10-01T09:36:05Z jivemeat: hmm
2015-10-01T09:36:09Z jivemeat: let me see rq
2015-10-01T09:36:20Z jivemeat: im on windows :( so my emacs game is weak atm
2015-10-01T09:37:30Z jivemeat: is scheme .scm?
2015-10-01T09:37:51Z pjb: jivemeat: ftp://ftp.gnu.org/gnu/emacs/windows/emacs-23.4-bin-i386.zip
2015-10-01T09:37:55Z pjb: jivemeat: yes.
2015-10-01T09:37:58Z jivemeat: ctrl-meta-x is undefined
2015-10-01T09:38:15Z pjb: You can have meta  with ESC.  So ESC C-x
2015-10-01T09:38:56Z jivemeat: It's still not compiling
2015-10-01T09:39:01Z pjb: Also C-]
2015-10-01T09:39:06Z pjb: Of course not, it's a binary!
2015-10-01T09:39:13Z jivemeat: oh lol
2015-10-01T09:39:21Z jivemeat: how do I spruce up emacs to do it?
2015-10-01T09:39:36Z jivemeat: I've been up all night for this exam
2015-10-01T09:39:42Z jivemeat: im a little off if you feel me
2015-10-01T09:40:00Z pjb: If you want to compile emacs, get the sources: ftp://ftp.gnu.org/gnu/emacs/emacs-24.5.tar.gz
2015-10-01T09:40:13Z jivemeat: can't compile it from source atm too much work
2015-10-01T09:40:17Z jivemeat: exam is in like 3 hours
2015-10-01T09:40:32Z pjb: A little late to study…
2015-10-01T09:40:42Z jivemeat: Been studying all night
2015-10-01T09:41:03Z jivemeat: I don't mess around with programming tests
2015-10-01T09:41:08Z pjb: If I were you, now I'd go to sleep and I'd skip the exam.
2015-10-01T09:41:14Z jivemeat: good idea
2015-10-01T09:41:15Z jivemeat: I wish
2015-10-01T09:41:23Z pjb: There's no point going to an exam without having spent months before studying.
2015-10-01T09:41:32Z jivemeat: Well to be honest
2015-10-01T09:41:34Z jivemeat: I have been
2015-10-01T09:41:40Z jivemeat: Scheme for some reason doesnt click with me
2015-10-01T09:41:48Z jivemeat: It's the parenthesis honestly
2015-10-01T09:41:59Z pjb: Yeah, right. The parentheses.
2015-10-01T09:42:04Z jivemeat: Well no seriously
2015-10-01T09:42:26Z jivemeat: I am legimately dyslexic to it
2015-10-01T09:42:40Z jivemeat: I can't mentally track the flow of the program, it really is a struggle
2015-10-01T09:43:15Z jivemeat: trivial programs dont make sense to me, it's honestly been rough
2015-10-01T09:43:34Z jivemeat: But I can learn c++ in a couple hours before an exam and get Bs
2015-10-01T09:44:04Z zacts: jivemeat: you must learn a text editor (emacs) to indent the parentheses for you
2015-10-01T09:44:12Z jivemeat: DrRacket does
2015-10-01T09:44:16Z zacts: and usually a lisp expression spans multiple lines with a kind of indent
2015-10-01T09:44:20Z zacts: ah yeah and DrRacket
2015-10-01T09:44:20Z jivemeat: but the way the code is written like (+ 1 2)
2015-10-01T09:44:26Z jivemeat: just makes its very difficult to understand
2015-10-01T09:44:31Z jivemeat: I am very 1+2
2015-10-01T09:44:49Z zacts: prefix notation versus infix notation
2015-10-01T09:45:01Z jivemeat: I know, it's a mental block really
2015-10-01T09:45:15Z zacts: just think of (+ 1 2) as being like (add 1 2)
2015-10-01T09:45:19Z zacts: it's just a procedure call
2015-10-01T09:45:20Z jivemeat: I am good at programming, but scheme has been a true test of my ability. seriously
2015-10-01T09:45:28Z zacts: and it allows for as many arguments as you want
2015-10-01T09:45:32Z zacts: (add 1 2 3 4 ...)
2015-10-01T09:45:38Z jivemeat: It's not so much that
2015-10-01T09:45:42Z jivemeat: I just can't read it
2015-10-01T09:45:43Z zacts: which is like add(1, 2, 3, 4, 5) in C
2015-10-01T09:45:51Z jivemeat: it really is somewhat true dyslexia
2015-10-01T09:45:59Z zacts: it can take some getting used to
2015-10-01T09:46:05Z zacts: although, jivemeat
2015-10-01T09:46:51Z jivemeat: yes?
2015-10-01T09:47:20Z zacts: http://dustycloud.org/blog/wisp-lisp-alternative/ <-- I found this the other day
2015-10-01T09:47:22Z vraid: jivemeat: but you can read f(x,y) with no issue?
2015-10-01T09:47:51Z jivemeat: yeah it makes sense to me
2015-10-01T09:47:59Z jivemeat: f(x) in math
2015-10-01T09:48:02Z jivemeat: its become second nature
2015-10-01T09:48:04Z vraid: +(1,2)
2015-10-01T09:48:08Z vraid: (+ 1 2)
2015-10-01T09:48:14Z jivemeat: its foreign
2015-10-01T09:48:29Z jivemeat: how can I put this. I guess its like
2015-10-01T09:48:37Z vraid: + is just a function like any other
2015-10-01T09:48:44Z jivemeat: when I look at a c++ program, I understand it immediately
2015-10-01T09:48:58Z jivemeat: but lisp I can't follow it, it's too backwards
2015-10-01T09:49:02Z zacts: jivemeat: well that does kind of make sense to me, as I think studies have been done on the psychology of indent
2015-10-01T09:49:02Z jivemeat: it is my fault ultimately
2015-10-01T09:49:11Z zacts: your brain reads things in chunks
2015-10-01T09:49:22Z jivemeat: indeed it does :)
2015-10-01T09:49:27Z jivemeat: im a psychology major as well
2015-10-01T09:49:39Z zacts: lke thzizs ynu onznly need to see the first and last letters of words to read them
2015-10-01T09:49:51Z jivemeat: exactly
2015-10-01T09:49:52Z zacts: and we recognize faces really well
2015-10-01T09:50:04Z jivemeat: im very conditioned to seeing 1 particular method
2015-10-01T09:50:08Z zacts: Algol or C-like syntaxso you may be trained in C
2015-10-01T09:50:24Z zacts: sorry ssh lag
2015-10-01T09:50:25Z jivemeat: i kick myself for not playing with lisp in emacs sophomore year
2015-10-01T09:50:27Z jivemeat: would have helped
2015-10-01T09:50:34Z zacts: that last sentence is not totally what I meant to type that way
2015-10-01T09:50:43Z zacts: jivemeat: perhaps wisp could help you to transition
2015-10-01T09:51:01Z zacts: it turns scheme into a python like language
2015-10-01T09:51:06Z zacts: s/language/syntax/
2015-10-01T09:51:33Z jivemeat: hmm
2015-10-01T09:51:37Z jivemeat: that may not be a bad idea
2015-10-01T09:51:41Z vraid: jivemeat: on the other hand, scheme lets you do (+ 1 2 3 4 5) rather than having to use four +
2015-10-01T09:51:45Z jivemeat: I have a quick question
2015-10-01T09:51:54Z jivemeat: how do I set a counter variable with lambda?
2015-10-01T09:52:12Z jivemeat: im trying to recurse into a list to counter the occurences of a string
2015-10-01T09:52:26Z jivemeat: well
2015-10-01T09:52:30Z jivemeat: element not so much string
2015-10-01T09:53:26Z jivemeat: can I nest defines?
2015-10-01T09:53:34Z jivemeat: then lambda my parameters?
2015-10-01T09:53:50Z vraid: you probably want to do a recursion where you pass the counter along, rather than increase it with mutation
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2015-10-01T09:54:39Z jivemeat: how would I do that exactly
2015-10-01T09:54:44Z jivemeat: here is what I have so far
2015-10-01T09:54:50Z jivemeat: sec
2015-10-01T09:54:54Z jivemeat: let me finish it first
2015-10-01T09:56:19Z jivemeat: (define dick-counter
2015-10-01T09:56:19Z jivemeat:   (define (dick-count 0)
2015-10-01T09:56:19Z jivemeat:     (lambda (ls)
2015-10-01T09:56:19Z jivemeat:       (if (equal? (car ls) "dicks") (dick-counter dick-count+1 (cdr ls)))
2015-10-01T09:56:19Z jivemeat:       (else #f)))
2015-10-01T09:56:31Z jivemeat: it wont compile because the define, but thats what I mocked up
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2015-10-01T09:57:04Z jivemeat: excuse the dicks, but if you want to remember something for a test, make it something outrageous and you will surely remember it
2015-10-01T10:00:08Z vraid: here is an example http://pasterack.org/pastes/52840
2015-10-01T10:01:44Z jivemeat: word ty
2015-10-01T10:01:50Z jivemeat: So wait
2015-10-01T10:01:55Z jivemeat: Why did you define twice?
2015-10-01T10:02:20Z jivemeat: the first define is the initial set of parameters. But then the second define does what?
2015-10-01T10:02:27Z vraid: the second is a local function not visible outside of the first
2015-10-01T10:02:29Z jivemeat: Just more variables?
2015-10-01T10:02:43Z jivemeat: is everything initialized to 0 by default?
2015-10-01T10:02:48Z vraid: no
2015-10-01T10:03:06Z vraid: everything is initialized explicitly
2015-10-01T10:04:06Z jivemeat: this is my last question for a bit
2015-10-01T10:04:07Z jivemeat: (define *strong-cues*
2015-10-01T10:04:07Z jivemeat: 	  '( ( ((the names) (their names))
2015-10-01T10:04:07Z jivemeat: 	       ((whos on first whats on second i dont know on third)
2015-10-01T10:04:07Z jivemeat:  	        (whats on second whos on first i dont know on third)) )
2015-10-01T10:04:07Z jivemeat: 	     ( ((suppose) (lets say) (assume))
2015-10-01T10:04:10Z jivemeat: 	       ((okay) (why not) (sure) (it could happen)) )
2015-10-01T10:04:12Z jivemeat: 	     ( ((i dont know))
2015-10-01T10:04:14Z jivemeat: 	       ((third base) (hes on third)) )
2015-10-01T10:04:16Z jivemeat: 	   ))
2015-10-01T10:04:18Z jivemeat: that data set of lists
2015-10-01T10:04:28Z jivemeat: I literally cannot for the life of me understand what that means
2015-10-01T10:04:39Z vraid: please use a paste site for code rather than directly in irc
2015-10-01T10:04:42Z jivemeat: how many lists are in it? is it just 1 big list? are they pairs?
2015-10-01T10:04:53Z jivemeat: sure
2015-10-01T10:04:56Z jivemeat: give me a sec
2015-10-01T10:05:36Z jivemeat: http://pastebin.com/yFpeU5HY
2015-10-01T10:05:57Z jivemeat: Like what the heck is that?
2015-10-01T10:06:14Z jivemeat: Is that 1 big list with each thing being an element?
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2015-10-01T10:06:47Z vraid: yeah, *strong-cues* is defined to hold that big list
2015-10-01T10:07:31Z jivemeat: But do I treat it just like any ordinary list?
2015-10-01T10:08:06Z jivemeat: Was it formatted that way to make it more readable rather than actually holding specific coding needs?
2015-10-01T10:08:21Z vraid: i can't answer that
2015-10-01T10:10:04Z jivemeat: I guess the better question is
2015-10-01T10:10:42Z jivemeat: Do the extra parathensis that differentiate from `(1 2 3) to the `((1 2 3) 3 2 (1 2))
2015-10-01T10:10:47Z jivemeat: have an impact on how its read?
2015-10-01T10:11:15Z vraid: yes
2015-10-01T10:11:27Z vraid: each pair of parentheses makes a new list
2015-10-01T10:11:29Z jivemeat: What are they doing to the individual pieces?
2015-10-01T10:11:33Z jivemeat: o_o
2015-10-01T10:11:44Z vraid: so that second example is a list of (a list, 3, 2, a new list)
2015-10-01T10:11:51Z jivemeat: so if I were to start car/cdr-ing into them
2015-10-01T10:11:53Z jivemeat: what happens?
2015-10-01T10:11:59Z vraid: heterogenous data
2015-10-01T10:12:05Z vraid: you can do that, just as any other list
2015-10-01T10:12:19Z jivemeat: oh
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2015-10-01T10:12:34Z jivemeat: so method of traversing is still the same no matter what?
2015-10-01T10:12:42Z jivemeat: is car/cdr that smart of an iterator?
2015-10-01T10:14:05Z fizzie: You'll get the first element of the list from car. That would be 1 or (1 2 3) for your examples. That's not particularly "smart".
2015-10-01T10:14:50Z vraid: jivemeat: car on '((1 2 3) 3 2 (1 2)) would give you the first element: '(1 2 3)
2015-10-01T10:14:54Z vraid: car on that would give you 1
2015-10-01T10:14:56Z vraid: car on that would be an error
2015-10-01T10:15:56Z jivemeat: so I have to double car o_O
2015-10-01T10:16:04Z jivemeat: does that even make sense?
2015-10-01T10:16:17Z fizzie: It's called caar as a shortcut, and sure.
2015-10-01T10:16:23Z vraid: what if you were working with a two-dimensional array in c?
2015-10-01T10:16:30Z vraid: double []
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2015-10-01T10:16:46Z fizzie: You could define a function that would get 1 out of either list, but presumably there's some reason for having that structure, instead of a flat list.
2015-10-01T10:18:13Z jivemeat: hmmm true
2015-10-01T10:18:17Z jivemeat: okay let me try this rq
2015-10-01T10:18:22Z jivemeat: ty for all the help btw
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2015-10-01T11:05:40Z DGASAU: jivemeat: you may want to take a look at R-Lisp and get the idea how it works.
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2015-10-01T11:33:11Z jivemeat: hey
2015-10-01T11:33:17Z jivemeat: what exactly is a let/letract?
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2015-10-01T16:37:28Z warweasle: Question about closures and scope in scheme. I want to create a tree where I can look up *parent*, *root*, etc just by using the variables. The problem is, I want to do it dynamically. For example: Inserting a new node in the tree and still referencing the correct *parent* value. I'm fairly certain there is a way to do this in scheme. Anyone have any ideas?
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2015-10-01T16:40:16Z Madsy: warweasle: tail recursion and pass the parent as a parameter perhaps?
2015-10-01T16:41:21Z warweasle: Madsy: Does that change my function's scope?
2015-10-01T16:42:03Z Madsy: Ah, you're not traversing the tree. For just inserting a node, I don't know.
2015-10-01T16:42:21Z Madsy: Doesn't inserting a node require you to access the parent anyway?
2015-10-01T16:42:22Z warweasle: Madsy: Yes. I'm trying to make a DOM like struture.
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2015-10-01T16:43:55Z warweasle: Madsy: It's an elegant solution. This way I can move nodes around and just look for *parent* or other attributes without needing any special syntax or trickery. I'm tempted to make a DSL that can do it.
2015-10-01T16:44:55Z warweasle: So I guess, dynamic scoping?
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2015-10-01T16:59:25Z warweasle: is it fluid-let?
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2015-10-01T17:25:40Z zacts: http://www.gnu.org/software/kawa/
2015-10-01T17:25:51Z zacts: ^ I just discovered this on the gnu homepage this morning
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2015-10-01T17:29:53Z zwdr: can't you just use (define with-node (node proc) (let ((parent (get-parent node))) proc) or something like that and then use (with-node node ...) for scoping?
2015-10-01T17:30:05Z zwdr: Or am I misunderstanding something?
2015-10-01T17:30:28Z zwdr: I know Racket uses that "with-x" pattern a lot
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2015-10-01T17:33:01Z warweasle: zwdr: That works until I try to insert a node into the hierarchy after it's been built.
2015-10-01T17:34:34Z warweasle: I really wish I could just save the current local variables and pass that to apply and say "Here, use these."
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2015-10-01T17:42:13Z zwdr: huh, shouldnt the let always create a new scope?
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2015-10-01T17:43:13Z kephra: warweasle, http://o3db.com/demo/dpaste.html#3RSD5X9 <- you can pass an environment to eval ... my implementation is non standard (but much easier)
2015-10-01T17:43:27Z warweasle: zwdr: Well, that's tricky. It does at compile or evaluation time. But if you call a function which with a let around an unresolved variable, it only looks in the GLOBAL space.
2015-10-01T17:44:01Z zwdr: dang, thanks
2015-10-01T17:44:21Z zwdr: I'm currently reading let over lambda and trying to wrap my head around this stuff
2015-10-01T17:45:31Z kephra: zwdr, let over lambda (not the book) is a typical idiom to create objects in scheme
2015-10-01T17:46:15Z kephra: (let ((object variable definitions ...)) (lambda (method) (case method ... )))
2015-10-01T17:46:35Z zwdr: Yea, I got that much!
2015-10-01T17:46:40Z zwdr: but its still lots to learn
2015-10-01T17:47:04Z kephra: yeah, but its worth to learn both scheme, and a real oo language: Smalltalk
2015-10-01T17:47:41Z kephra: so you learn how to bootstrap your own objects - and how real oo looks like ... because Java, C++, ... they are all crippled
2015-10-01T17:47:48Z zwdr: well, I am interested in Smalltalk. But I'm taking it one step at a time
2015-10-01T17:48:21Z kephra: makes sense - i often code small games, if I learn a language
2015-10-01T17:48:35Z kephra: either it works, or not - but regardless: it was fun
2015-10-01T17:48:42Z zwdr: well, I did a personal wiki in Racket
2015-10-01T17:48:57Z zwdr: or, doing, I am still extending it
2015-10-01T17:49:02Z zwdr: but thats really fun too
2015-10-01T17:49:29Z zwdr: the main thing is coding something, right
2015-10-01T17:49:36Z kephra: about Scheme for webdev - take a look at the html source code of my dpaste posting above
2015-10-01T17:49:54Z zwdr: Oh I will
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2015-10-01T17:50:29Z zwdr: Racket luckily has a lot of libraries, so it wasn't difficult just starting hacking away
2015-10-01T17:51:06Z zwdr: huh, that looks cool
2015-10-01T17:51:11Z kephra: ;-)
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2015-10-01T17:52:25Z cojy: yes warweasle fluid-let is the common name for it, it's non-standard though
2015-10-01T17:52:37Z cojy: you might also be interested in zippers
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2015-10-01T17:53:38Z warweasle: cojy: Thanks. I'll look it up.
2015-10-01T17:55:08Z kephra: is fluid-let just a nicer syntax for the most common dynamic-bind situation?
2015-10-01T17:56:26Z cojy: what do you mean by most common?
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2015-10-01T17:56:36Z cojy: there is only one dynamic binding situation
2015-10-01T17:56:46Z cojy: maybe two if you consider deep and shallow different situations
2015-10-01T17:57:08Z cojy: and its usually just a macro that turns into some ref cell sets and gets
2015-10-01T17:57:15Z kephra: *oups* s/dynamic-bind/dynamic-wind/
2015-10-01T17:58:11Z cojy: i'm not sure why it would do anything involving dynamic-wind?
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2015-10-01T18:00:56Z kephra: (fluid-let ((var val)) (do-something)) -> (let ((old var)) (dynamic-wind (lamba () (set! var val)) (do-something) (set! var old))))
2015-10-01T18:01:12Z kephra: is this equivalent?
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2015-10-01T18:03:42Z kephra: *oups* missing two (lambda ()  in the code
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2015-10-02T17:55:49Z pflanze: Hello. How would you call a function that, if given #f, just returns #f? And how would you call a function that makes such a function out of a normal one?
2015-10-02T17:56:18Z vraid: could you elaborate on the second part?
2015-10-02T17:56:21Z pflanze: e.g. (define (possibly f) (lambda (v)  (if v (f v) #f)))
2015-10-02T17:56:38Z pflanze: now (define possibly-square (possibly square))
2015-10-02T17:56:45Z pflanze: but I don't like the name "possibly" for that.
2015-10-02T17:57:08Z pflanze: Don't want to use "maybe" either, somehow.
2015-10-02T17:57:22Z vraid: and here i thought you were asking about function calls :p
2015-10-02T17:57:35Z vraid: optional?
2015-10-02T17:58:00Z pflanze: Hm, maybe. Perhaps possibly optionally that's a good idea :)
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2015-10-02T17:59:05Z pflanze: Something with "and-" might also be an idea, since I could write the above as:
2015-10-02T17:59:21Z pflanze: (define (and- f) (lambda (v)  (and v (f v))))
2015-10-02T17:59:34Z vraid: do you have any context for thsi?
2015-10-02T17:59:46Z pflanze: I'm running into this often.
2015-10-02T17:59:59Z pflanze: With optional arguments, or environment variables that are optional.
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2015-10-02T18:00:11Z pflanze: (Yes, "optional" sounds good for this reason.)
2015-10-02T18:00:58Z pflanze: e.g. (define (foo a #!optional b) (bar (square a) ((optionally square) b)))
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2015-10-02T18:01:34Z pflanze: Of course this can lead to whole chains of such statements.
2015-10-02T18:01:58Z pflanze: ((compose (optionally square) (optionally inc) (optionally inverse)) b)
2015-10-02T18:02:10Z vraid: i usually use and-let*
2015-10-02T18:02:34Z pflanze: Ah, didn't know about that.
2015-10-02T18:03:00Z pflanze: Wanted to say, the above might ask for an optional-compose or so.
2015-10-02T18:03:06Z vraid: it's not in any standard, but it's easy to write, and some extensions have it
2015-10-02T18:03:16Z pflanze: Also, I still don't know exactly what the maybe monad does in Haskell.
2015-10-02T18:03:16Z vraid: it's like let*, except it returns #f in any bindings evaluate to #f
2015-10-02T18:03:40Z pflanze: vraid, and then doesn't evaluate subsequent forms?
2015-10-02T18:03:50Z vraid: so you can safely do things like (and-let* ((num (string->number str)) (a (+ num b))) a)
2015-10-02T18:03:52Z vraid: yeah
2015-10-02T18:04:23Z pflanze: Ok, so that's a syntactical form of optional-compose (that also allows you to capture the intermediates).
2015-10-02T18:05:11Z pflanze: Or maybe it's actually (kind-of) the maybe monad?
2015-10-02T18:05:24Z pflanze: (i.e. with explicit bindings for every step)
2015-10-02T18:06:52Z vraid: i thought monads did more, but i'm no expert on category theory
2015-10-02T18:07:23Z vraid: it's quite convenient for chaining things that might fail anyhow
2015-10-02T18:07:47Z vraid: you can throw (_ (f a b)) checks there too if you just want to check that something isn' false without using the result
2015-10-02T18:08:34Z pflanze: Well monads in general can do anything to a sequence of statements. The maybe monad is one particular monad, and it deals with option types (maybe, nothing).
2015-10-02T18:10:00Z pflanze: Anyway, your "optional" is spot on I think (it's for the option type, after all).
2015-10-02T18:10:24Z pflanze: Thanks :)
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2015-10-02T20:06:56Z dreams: Hi, there is a webpage which list papers on the implementation of Scheme and lisp-like languages, can't find it anymore. I would appreciate the link if you happen to have it.
2015-10-02T20:07:45Z turbofail: readscheme.org?
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2015-10-02T20:09:20Z dreams: turbofail: bingo, thanks alot.
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2015-10-02T21:02:39Z pflanze: Hm, how would you call this function?: (define (perhapsionally f) (lambda vals (if (pair? vals) (apply f vals) (values))))
2015-10-02T21:04:00Z pflanze: i.e. like (define (optionally f) (lambda (v)  (if v (f v) #f))) but short-cutting (values) instead of #f
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2015-10-02T21:05:40Z pflanze: (BTW, is anyone using proper option types (i.e. which can nest) instead of either of the above in Scheme?)
2015-10-02T21:06:14Z pflanze: (Does Racket include some such?)
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2015-10-04T10:58:35Z ssake_: When using kawa, is there clean way to give float number as parameter to function?
2015-10-04T10:59:12Z ssake_: Currently doing it like (java-class:fn (->float 1))
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2015-10-04T20:47:43Z goglosh: mit-scheme is r4rs?
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2015-10-04T20:58:07Z ecraven: goglosh: it supports most of r5rs and some of r7rs
2015-10-04T20:58:15Z ecraven: but there is no mode that has only and all of those
2015-10-04T21:01:35Z goglosh: oh okay, so I could safely make a r5rs pure application in in and it'd probably work fine
2015-10-04T21:01:39Z goglosh: r-right?
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2015-10-04T21:10:36Z goglosh: well it has macros that's the important thing... though I can't find that section in the manual
2015-10-04T21:12:53Z goglosh: nevermind
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2015-10-05T20:03:51Z jivemeat: Hey, how do I traverse this list?
2015-10-05T20:03:57Z jivemeat: (define *context-words*
2015-10-05T20:03:57Z jivemeat: 	  `( ( ((first)) first-base )
2015-10-05T20:03:57Z jivemeat: 	     ( ((second)) second-base )
2015-10-05T20:03:57Z jivemeat: 	     ( ((third)) third-base )))
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2015-10-05T20:17:01Z wasamasa: jivemeat: what's wrong with just going over each item and destructuring it?
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2015-10-05T20:29:49Z jivemeat: How would I do that?
2015-10-05T20:30:44Z wasamasa: there's the very handy `map'
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2015-10-06T05:28:06Z amz3: héllo
2015-10-06T05:28:22Z amz3: how can i work with binary representation of integers?
2015-10-06T05:28:37Z amz3: I'd like to implement z-order curve
2015-10-06T05:29:00Z amz3: or morton code
2015-10-06T05:29:05Z amz3: also called morton code
2015-10-06T05:29:26Z amz3: it boils down to interleave the bits of several integers
2015-10-06T05:32:02Z amz3: like say (zinteger 1 2) should return #b0110 because 1 -> 01, 2 -> 10
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2015-10-06T05:43:48Z amz3: srfi-60 is helpful
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2015-10-06T05:49:59Z amz3: (define (zinteger . vs) (list->integer (apply append (map integer->list vs))))
2015-10-06T05:50:14Z amz3: that's morton encoding :)
2015-10-06T05:50:44Z amz3: who is the bot?
2015-10-06T05:52:52Z daviid: top
2015-10-06T05:53:17Z daviid: sorry, wrong channel
2015-10-06T05:54:28Z amz3: (zinteger 1 2) is 6 not 5
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2015-10-06T10:32:06Z luxbock: I have some questions about continuations and I figured this channel might be a good place to ask them
2015-10-06T10:32:39Z luxbock: as far as I've understood, one can implement coroutines using delimited continuations, but is the reverse true?
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2015-10-06T10:35:58Z DGASAU: (Even if, what's the practical use of it?)
2015-10-06T10:39:11Z luxbock: I'm mostly a Clojure user, so I can't use first class continuations on the JVM
2015-10-06T10:40:03Z luxbock: there's a library that implements delimited continuations for Clojure though, and it does it by transforming the code to CPS inside a macro, which I guess is the usual way of implementing continuations in a language that lacks them
2015-10-06T10:41:07Z luxbock: so as far as I've understood, the distinction between the continuations implemented by such a library, and first class continuations, is that these continuations are limited to working inside the macro-call
2015-10-06T10:41:24Z luxbock: although I'm not entirely sure if this is correct
2015-10-06T10:42:22Z luxbock: then I found out that there is a library for the JVM that implements fibers/coroutines for the JVM by bytecode instrumentation (Quasar for Java and it's wrapper which is called Pulsar)
2015-10-06T10:43:21Z luxbock: so I'm wondering if one could then implement first-class continuations using the coroutines provided by that library
2015-10-06T10:43:43Z luxbock: and mostly I'm still trying to grok the whole concept of continuations, I'm currently working through The Seasoned Schemer
2015-10-06T10:48:38Z kephra: luxbock, full tail call optimization would be more important to make clojure a useable list look like
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2015-10-06T10:49:24Z kephra: s/list/lisp/ *typo*
2015-10-06T10:50:07Z luxbock: is full TCO the only thing that's needed for first class continuations or do you also need support at the bytecode level?
2015-10-06T10:50:45Z kephra: *oups* they are two different problems
2015-10-06T10:50:48Z luxbock: I tried reading a few papers about implementing delimited continuations and a lot of it still goes way over my head
2015-10-06T10:50:52Z kephra: TCO is a must have, imho
2015-10-06T10:51:14Z kephra: while continuations are 'only' required for error handling
2015-10-06T10:51:36Z kephra: and clojure can fall back on Java exceptions in that case
2015-10-06T10:52:13Z luxbock: was "TCO is a must have, imho" in reference to implementing first class continuations, or just a general remark about language features?
2015-10-06T10:52:36Z kephra: a general remark for lisp like languages
2015-10-06T10:53:19Z luxbock: ok, yeah I'm mostly just interested in the concept of continuations and how they related to coroutines aka user-mode threads
2015-10-06T10:55:13Z kephra: *ok* interested in how my scheme implements call-cc and call-ec?
2015-10-06T10:55:23Z kephra: in less then a dozen lines of javascript?
2015-10-06T10:55:30Z luxbock: yeah sure! what is your scheme called?
2015-10-06T10:55:40Z kephra: o3db.com
2015-10-06T10:56:50Z kephra: http://o3db.com/client/o3scm.js <- search for call-cc in this code
2015-10-06T10:58:10Z kephra: var cont = { cont:code.slice(0), pile:this.p, np:this.p.slice(0) }; <- a continuation is a copy of the code activation stack (code.slice(0), together with a copy of the current return stack
2015-10-06T11:00:22Z luxbock: can you implement shift/reset with call-cc alone?
2015-10-06T11:02:54Z luxbock: http://okmij.org/ftp/continuations/against-callcc.html#traps
2015-10-06T11:03:02Z luxbock: this would suggest that it's not quite possible
2015-10-06T11:05:55Z kephra: you can implement GOTO, threads, delimited continutions, exceptions, ... with call-cc
2015-10-06T11:06:15Z kephra: but often a native implementation might be faster/better
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2015-10-06T11:06:57Z luxbock: kephra: do you have links that talk about this topic?
2015-10-06T11:07:19Z kephra: e.g. if you want fluid-let and threads you could implement both on top of call-cc
2015-10-06T11:08:08Z kephra: but native dynamic bindings and native threads would be much faster, then capturing the code activation stack and return stack on each call-cc
2015-10-06T11:09:49Z luxbock: kephra: Oleg Kiselyov writes: "Therefore, in practice if some form of delimited control is needed, it has to be provided as a primitive. We cannot in practice rely on call/cc plus mutation. It seems call/cc has no reason for existence."
2015-10-06T11:11:34Z luxbock: the delimited continuation papers that I skimmed through talked about prompts, which I don't quite grasp yet, but having checked out the documentation for prompts in Racket I figured that they correspond to the byte code instrumentation that I was talking about earlier
2015-10-06T11:13:51Z luxbock: my curiosity about this topic arose when I read this blog post: http://blog.paralleluniverse.co/2015/08/07/scoped-continuations/ while working through TSS
2015-10-06T11:14:38Z luxbock: it is crazy how there are all of these things that I thought I understood, such as generators, threads, monads etc.
2015-10-06T11:14:49Z luxbock: and then I started reading about continuations, and it seems like they are related to pretty much everything
2015-10-06T11:17:27Z luxbock: http://parametricity.net/dropbox/yield.subc.pdf <-- this was also a very interesting read
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2015-10-06T11:44:44Z DGASAU: luxbock: the way you have implemented continuations in your clojure is actually delimited version of them.
2015-10-06T11:45:02Z DGASAU: "Prompt" is where your trampoline is.
2015-10-06T11:45:30Z luxbock: DGASAU: sorry what are you refering to? I haven't implemented continuations in any shape or form :)
2015-10-06T11:46:02Z DGASAU: You have access to continuations implemented in clojure, don't you?
2015-10-06T11:46:53Z luxbock: DGASAU: there is such a library: https://github.com/swannodette/delimc
2015-10-06T11:47:15Z luxbock: what I don't quite understand is the distinction between "first-class" continuations and what this is
2015-10-06T11:47:31Z DGASAU: Ah, I may have misread you.
2015-10-06T11:48:06Z luxbock: I figured that it refers to having only the ability to use these prompts within the macro call that is responsible for the CPS transormation
2015-10-06T11:48:19Z DGASAU: Delimited continuations are harder to implement technically, yet easier conceptually.
2015-10-06T11:48:37Z luxbock: yeah, that's my impression as well
2015-10-06T11:49:21Z luxbock: I have to run now but if I've said something that's confused then I'd love to be corrected/pointed towards something more to read
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2015-10-06T11:49:36Z DGASAU: Essentially, (undelimited) continuations are usually implemented in (older) java-like RTSes as delimited continuations with single prompt established at program entry.
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2015-10-06T12:37:30Z zwdr: wow, now I keep hearing about continuations everywhere
2015-10-06T12:37:48Z zwdr: spooky
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2015-10-06T12:43:07Z kephra: they are a controversal theme - powerful, but expensive
2015-10-06T12:43:51Z kephra: expensive in terms of memory hog - as told my call-cc code is just a dozen lines
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2015-10-06T12:45:05Z kephra: the alternate to call-cc + dynamic-wind would be to implement dynamic global variables, and use those for exceptions and with-input/output-to-...
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2015-10-06T16:06:28Z moyamo: Hi, is anyone here familiar with McCarthy's ambiguous operator?
2015-10-06T16:11:42Z amz3: yes
2015-10-06T16:12:16Z moyamo: Is it identical to a list monad (like in haskell)?
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2015-10-06T16:13:16Z amz3: amb is not a a list monad
2015-10-06T16:14:25Z amz3: which list monad are talking about?
2015-10-06T16:15:09Z zwdr: amb sounds pretty interesting
2015-10-06T16:15:35Z zwdr: but thats all I have to add :s
2015-10-06T16:15:54Z moyamo: Default haskell monad
2015-10-06T16:16:22Z amz3: it's not possible to implement amb without call/cc so I wondering how default haskell monad can implement amb
2015-10-06T16:16:39Z amz3: that said, they are monads that show a backtracking behavior like in minikanren
2015-10-06T16:17:00Z amz3: s/minikanren/microkanren
2015-10-06T16:17:22Z moyamo: In haskell you can do something like this:
2015-10-06T16:17:56Z zwdr: cant Haskell programs be executed out-of-order? isnt that a problem for continuations?
2015-10-06T16:18:33Z zwdr: I mean, because it's difficult to back-track when the order of execution isn't clear
2015-10-06T16:18:47Z moyamo: [1, 2,3 ,4] >>= (\a -> [5, 6, 7, 8] >>= (\b -> guard (a + b == 10) >> return (a, b)))
2015-10-06T16:19:15Z moyamo: it will return (2, 8), (3, 7), (4, 6)
2015-10-06T16:19:45Z moyamo: Won't amb do the same thing?
2015-10-06T16:21:17Z moyamo: zwdr: In haskell you can use a monad to make sure a computation happens in order
2015-10-06T16:22:15Z zwdr: Oh, okay
2015-10-06T16:22:37Z moyamo: zwdr: More specifically, you can use function composition to make sure computations happen in order, and use monads to make it look cleaner :)
2015-10-06T16:23:07Z zwdr: Man, I really have to look into Haskell, a ton of FP people keep talking about it :s
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2015-10-06T16:23:37Z amz3: or do something useful :)
2015-10-06T16:24:15Z moyamo: amz3: Does amb return one result are all valid results?
2015-10-06T16:24:26Z amz3: moyamo: sorry I don't know, I don't understand amb that well and I don't understand monads either.
2015-10-06T16:24:47Z amz3: probably someone here will see you comment and help
2015-10-06T16:25:52Z zwdr: heh, yea I guess learning Haskell isn't that useful
2015-10-06T16:26:43Z moyamo: Hey, some would say the same about scheme :P
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2015-10-06T16:36:52Z zwdr: That's true. I think there are more Haskell jobs than Scheme jobs actually
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2015-10-06T17:01:11Z cojy: zwdr: continuations can be implemented with only lambdas
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2015-10-06T17:07:26Z cojy: moyamo: yes amb is similar to the list monad
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2015-10-06T17:09:04Z cojy: amb might have had some specific constraints which it might not meet though, i don't remember
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2015-10-06T17:15:17Z taylanub: cojy: I don't think call/cc can be implemented with lambda, if that's what you meant with implementing continuations with lambdas
2015-10-06T17:15:44Z dpk: well, it can … if you're willing to rewrite your entire program for it …
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2015-10-06T17:15:55Z dpk: /s
2015-10-06T17:16:26Z cojy: all you have to do is cps convert the program in the compiler
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2015-10-06T17:17:07Z cojy: i'm not talking about as a user level library
2015-10-06T17:17:19Z cojy: though you can do that as a macro as well like cl-cont or core.async
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2015-10-06T17:33:27Z moyamo: Do continuations not reset local variables?
2015-10-06T17:34:32Z cojy: not sure what 'reset local variables' means
2015-10-06T17:36:49Z moyamo: When you enter a continuation does the value of the variable equal the value when the continuation was created?
2015-10-06T17:37:07Z ggole: Not if it was assigned
2015-10-06T17:38:58Z pjb: The state in the scope of the continuations is shared.
2015-10-06T17:39:06Z moyamo: That's not what I expected :(
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2015-10-06T17:39:35Z pjb: moyamo: you can always enclose a snapshot of the state in a closure.
2015-10-06T17:39:40Z moyamo: (let ((b 10))
2015-10-06T17:39:40Z moyamo: (define (cont-test cont) (display b) (set! b (+ b 1)) cont)
2015-10-06T17:39:47Z moyamo: Sorry
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2015-10-06T17:39:58Z moyamo: Accidentally pasted the function in my clipboard
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2015-10-06T17:40:01Z cojy: (+ 1 (call/cc (lambda (k) (k 1)))) is exactly the same as ((lambda (k) (k 1) (lambda (x) (+ 1 x)))
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2015-10-06T17:40:41Z ggole: There's no assignment there, though.
2015-10-06T17:40:53Z vraid: moyamo: well, it might be a bit obvious, but if you want immutable variables, you shouldn't mutate them
2015-10-06T17:41:04Z cojy: yes but the point is there there is nothing special about "continuations"
2015-10-06T17:41:27Z moyamo: vraid: Haha, I just thought calling a continuation would be like going back in time.
2015-10-06T17:41:59Z cojy: nope, you have to make everything else suited around that too
2015-10-06T17:42:14Z cojy: it's easier than monad stacks though
2015-10-06T17:42:15Z ggole: They reify control flow in a first-class value, which is arguably something special.
2015-10-06T17:42:57Z ggole: Well, not true: call/cc does that, a continuation itself is just a function
2015-10-06T17:43:10Z ggole: Is that what you were getting at?
2015-10-06T17:43:16Z cojy: yes
2015-10-06T17:43:19Z ggole: Ah, right.
2015-10-06T17:43:23Z cojy: you wont find any odd behavior in the rest of the code
2015-10-06T17:44:26Z cojy: some compilers literally do implement call/cc exactly by transforming like the example
2015-10-06T17:44:49Z cojy: so if you know that you wont be searching for any odd mystic behavior
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2015-10-07T00:30:10Z jivemeat: yo how would I compare two lists and build a new list of only the elements both lists have?
2015-10-07T00:30:24Z pjb: (intersection a b)?
2015-10-07T00:30:41Z jivemeat: how do I create it though?
2015-10-07T00:30:47Z jivemeat: my-intersection
2015-10-07T00:31:02Z pjb: using car, cdr, eqv? and cons.
2015-10-07T00:31:05Z pjb: and if.
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2015-10-07T00:33:13Z jivemeat: well no like
2015-10-07T00:33:22Z jivemeat: (define set-equal?
2015-10-07T00:33:22Z jivemeat:   (lambda (set1 set2)
2015-10-07T00:33:22Z jivemeat:     (cond ((null? set1) set2)
2015-10-07T00:33:22Z jivemeat:           ((eq? (car set1) (car set2))
2015-10-07T00:33:22Z jivemeat:            (set-equal? (cdr set1) (cdr set2)))
2015-10-07T00:33:22Z jivemeat:           (else #f))))
2015-10-07T00:33:36Z jivemeat: '(1 2 3) and '(1 3 2) = #t
2015-10-07T00:33:48Z jivemeat: Why is my code returning an '()?
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2015-10-07T00:52:57Z evhan: jivemeat: It returns `set2` when `set1` is null. That doesn't seem right, does it.
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2015-10-07T01:36:33Z pjb: jivemeat: you don't take the problem from high enough a level.
2015-10-07T01:37:16Z pjb: jivemeat:  in maths set equality is  based on set inclusion: (define (set-equal? a b) (and (subset? a b) (subset? b a))) ; guaranteed to be correct!
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2015-10-07T08:15:05Z profan: greetings, schemers
2015-10-07T08:15:39Z ecraven: hey profan :)
2015-10-07T08:16:21Z profan: i come to you today with a question!
2015-10-07T08:17:03Z profan: currently looking into embedding scheme in a project (a personal game engine), looked at chicken/guile, anyone have any opinions/experiences on the matter or other alternatives?
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2015-10-07T08:24:41Z taylanub: profan: maybe look into Chibi too
2015-10-07T08:25:37Z taylanub: Guile can also be "extended" with C code very well.  instead of allowing Guile "plugins" for your C program, you turn your C program into a zoo of Guile modules implemented in C, then write all the high-level code of your application in Guile Scheme.
2015-10-07T08:27:36Z profan: taylanub: chibi looks nice, interesting that it comes with support for lightweight threads too
2015-10-07T08:31:46Z profan: taylanub: got any particular example of your last comment? it's a bit foggy for me at the moment :D
2015-10-07T08:32:37Z taylanub: profan: let me find that one article ...
2015-10-07T08:33:01Z taylanub: it pops up on Google when you just search "embedding vs. extending": https://twistedmatrix.com/users/glyph/rant/extendit.html
2015-10-07T08:33:35Z taylanub: it's about Python but the same principle applies to Guile, or any "scripting language" implementation that allows both embedding and extending
2015-10-07T08:34:11Z profan: cheers, will read through
2015-10-07T08:38:28Z profan: ah, so the way i read it was, the main difference is treating the "native" part as just a library, which is treated mostly like any other scheme code, and called into by you
2015-10-07T08:39:34Z profan: i mean, you call into the engine, rather than the engine calls into _you_, or along those lines
2015-10-07T08:40:41Z profan: well, my messy thoughts aside, i understand the distinction better now, thanks taylanub!
2015-10-07T08:41:54Z taylanub: happy to help :)
2015-10-07T08:42:01Z profan: the header image on that page is fantastic by the way
2015-10-07T08:42:20Z taylanub: heh
2015-10-07T08:45:17Z kephra: imho, embedding is only necessary if you have several C threads - then its better to embed an interpreter in one of the threads
2015-10-07T08:45:39Z kephra: else its better to extend the interpreter, by loading a shared lib
2015-10-07T08:49:04Z kephra: but how often do you write code, that collects fast sampling data from a Comedi device in one thread, runs a FORTRAN fft in the next thread, runs some domain specific language for feature extraction in next thread, and last calls a learner to store results in a database log - where the non timing critical parts get their information from
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2015-10-07T09:01:41Z profan: kephra: in this case, it's a threaded game engine i'm going to be doing this for, still considering which to go for though :P
2015-10-07T09:02:03Z profan: gonna take a look at the different implementations and see which one looks the least painful to work with :D
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2015-10-07T09:27:10Z kephra: profan, you might also just think in terms of callout and callin
2015-10-07T09:27:26Z kephra: so your game starts in a high level language single threaded
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2015-10-07T09:29:39Z kephra: to initialize - then it will callout to C, to generate the threads for the actor chains
2015-10-07T09:31:37Z kephra: now the main thread sits back - and the actors of the main thread will callin back to high level language
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2015-10-07T09:34:56Z kephra: profan, callout to C are trivial in Chicken: (require-extension dollar) ($ printf "%d times Hello, %s!\n" 1000 "world")
2015-10-07T09:35:20Z profan: kephra: that's pretty neat
2015-10-07T09:35:26Z kephra: ;-)
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2015-10-07T21:25:32Z jivemeat: hey
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2015-10-07T21:41:02Z jivemeat: how can I create a new list without only unique items of two other lists
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2015-10-07T21:41:15Z jivemeat: like (a b c d) (a b) (c d)
2015-10-07T21:41:21Z jivemeat: is there a function that would do that?
2015-10-07T21:41:34Z oleo: ➒
2015-10-07T21:42:15Z oleo: use member
2015-10-07T21:42:25Z oleo: and union
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2015-10-07T21:48:45Z pjb: jivemeat: sorry, but you don't make any sense.
2015-10-07T21:48:58Z pjb: How do you want to build your new list? From what?
2015-10-07T21:50:43Z oleo: from (a b) and (c d) to (a b c d) etc.....
2015-10-07T21:51:43Z oleo: or from (a b) (a c d)  to (a b c d) etc. it seems
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2015-10-08T05:36:41Z oleo: or even adjoint....meh
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2015-10-08T09:16:05Z roosky: Jesus christ...  I try to read SICP, and no matter when I read it I cant get passed the first few excercises...  I understand perfectly when I look up the solution, but theres just no way I couldve thought it myself...  Is there any hope for me?  I have experience programing in other languages, and its not the programming thats difficult...  Its the questions that ask me to explain how/why things work/dont work/would work.  Would it be best to just push thro
2015-10-08T09:16:15Z roosky: the problems?  Sorry if this doesnt belong on this channel...
2015-10-08T09:17:25Z roosky: (Forgot to say this) or would it be better to mvoe to something like the Little Schemer, then move to SICP when I finish it?
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2015-10-08T09:28:13Z jewel__: you can try little schemer
2015-10-08T09:28:20Z jewel__: also try SICP videos
2015-10-08T09:30:35Z C-Keen: roosky: maybe start with a scheme book instead, like "The scheme programming language" and have a look at rosetta code or some such
2015-10-08T09:31:13Z roosky: jewel__: The videos (what ive seen at least) are great fun.  Im not having much of a problem understanding the concepts or learning, but I seem completely unable to answer the question excersiese, and I dont know how important that is to SICP...
2015-10-08T09:31:41Z roosky: C-Keen: will doo.  If I decide to move away from SICP for now, Ill probably reading little schemer.
2015-10-08T09:31:49Z jewel__: can you give us an example of a question that you can't answer?
2015-10-08T09:32:34Z roosky: Excercise 1-6 gave me a lot of trouble.
2015-10-08T09:32:52Z roosky: but once I looked it up it made lots of sense.
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2015-10-08T09:36:09Z C-Keen: roosky: have a look at https://rosettacode.org/wiki/Category:Scheme
2015-10-08T09:36:40Z roosky: C-Keen: Ill give it a look right now
2015-10-08T09:36:51Z C-Keen: roosky: not that urgent :)
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2015-10-08T09:39:57Z roosky: C-Keen: thanks for the link, Ill have a deeper look through it later today.
2015-10-08T09:45:56Z C-Keen: my pleasure. Note that the examples there might not be the best way to express things in scheme
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2015-10-08T10:05:54Z luxbock: what's the common meaning behind the prefix "co" in co-routine, co-recursion, co-value, co-data etc.?
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2015-10-08T10:22:40Z grublet: luxbock: co- basically means 'along with'
2015-10-08T10:22:46Z grublet: think 'consecutive' or 'concatenate'
2015-10-08T10:22:58Z grublet: or co-operate
2015-10-08T10:23:19Z grublet: or co-ordinate
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2015-10-08T10:24:47Z luxbock: grublet: thanks, yeah that makes sense
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2015-10-08T10:30:06Z ggole: In those contexts it typically means "the dual of"
2015-10-08T10:31:11Z ggole: (Probably not for coroutine.)
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2015-10-08T10:36:45Z kephra: luxbock, latin cum = with -> english com- e.g. combine, compare, ... further shortened to co-
2015-10-08T10:38:11Z kephra: grublet, is right, e.g. a co-pilot sits along with the pilot
2015-10-08T10:38:33Z grublet: kephra: im an etymology nerd :3
2015-10-08T10:38:39Z kephra 2
2015-10-08T10:39:24Z kephra is a language nerd
2015-10-08T10:39:39Z grublet: same
2015-10-08T10:39:47Z kephra: not in terms, that I'm able to write my own language proper
2015-10-08T10:40:07Z kephra: but in terms that I learn new languages - or at least scratch them
2015-10-08T10:43:33Z kephra: grublet, I hope pm is ok - because else we go *ot* to much here
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2015-10-08T10:45:03Z zwdr: I recently read "The holy mushroom and the cross", which had some heavy eymology in it
2015-10-08T10:45:16Z zwdr: but it was hard to follow without knowledge about sumerian and whatnot
2015-10-08T10:45:19Z zwdr: anyway, OT
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2015-10-08T12:25:04Z ecraven: eymology?
2015-10-08T12:27:08Z zwdr: etymology :s
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2015-10-08T12:34:20Z ecraven: google even has hits for eymology :)
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2015-10-08T13:57:39Z wrelam: I'm trying to see if a real number is greater than zero, using (if (> r1 0) r1 r2) but I get an error that the object r1, passed as an argument to <, is not the correct type
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2015-10-08T13:59:03Z wrelam: Is that the correct way to compare a real to 0?
2015-10-08T13:59:25Z vraid: what value does r1 have?
2015-10-08T13:59:50Z wrelam: -2.0408163265306123-2.8425282198334934i
2015-10-08T14:00:08Z vraid: that is a complex number, not a real number
2015-10-08T14:00:19Z vraid: < > is not defined for complex numbers
2015-10-08T14:00:46Z wrelam: I see, then I guess my previous function is incorrect
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2015-10-08T14:01:11Z vraid: for a real number, it would be correct
2015-10-08T14:01:45Z wrelam: ok cool
2015-10-08T14:01:46Z vraid: for a complex you'll have to either decide which part to use, or compare the absolute value
2015-10-08T14:04:52Z wrelam: gotcha, thanks!
2015-10-08T14:05:03Z vraid: np
2015-10-08T14:05:14Z wrelam: does Edwin support a configuration file similar to .emacs?
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2015-10-08T18:14:57Z leppie: what's up with all the varying results when calling expt with numbers that return #t for zero? Or is that just mathematically nonsensical? Wolfram Alpha gives undefined for all of the combos I tried
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2015-10-08T18:25:08Z leppie: ok, mathematically, it seems to be ambiguous
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2015-10-09T00:46:32Z dTal: So I'm playing with Biwascheme (a Scheme engine in JS) and I'm trying to get it to run an external Scheme file by http-requesting it and eval-ing the result. However, when the eval completes its lexical scope is lost, which means that input handlers no longer hold valid references. Any thoughts?
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2015-10-09T00:49:33Z dTal: All I've written so far is (eval (read (open-input-string (string-append "(begin (" (http-request "./source.scm") "))" )))
2015-10-09T00:52:06Z evhan: dTal: You *might* be able to provide an environment to `eval`, which *might* be modified as a result.
2015-10-09T00:52:10Z evhan: Maybe.
2015-10-09T00:54:30Z dTal: Is there a better way in general to run code stored in a string in the current scope?
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2015-10-09T04:03:00Z cojy: dTal: there is no standard way to do that
2015-10-09T04:06:34Z cojy: it will still have the toplevel in scope though... usually
2015-10-09T04:09:38Z cojy: [TODO] environment scheme-report-environment null-environment interaction-environment
2015-10-09T04:09:40Z cojy: from http://www.biwascheme.org/doc/r7rs.html
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2015-10-09T06:35:32Z kephra: dTal, a Scheme in JS has to work around the async JS model, by wrapping a non recursive CPS
2015-10-09T06:37:49Z kephra: about the eval problem ... my Scheme would solve this with
2015-10-09T06:39:09Z kephra: the-environment, that returns the current environment - to be used later in eval or load
2015-10-09T06:41:24Z kephra: *oh* just reading, that biwascheme also seams to wrap a CPS around the JS callback hell
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2015-10-09T10:15:22Z dTal: Durr, I'm a dumb
2015-10-09T10:15:35Z dTal: Biwascheme supports (load)
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2015-10-09T10:16:40Z dTal: Thanks all for the input.
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2015-10-09T10:49:18Z dTal: Well, (load) doesn't work, but I've somehow also broken "Hello World" so welp
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2015-10-09T12:25:21Z kephra: dTal, http://o3db.com/demo/dpaste.html#1P5KN3G <- this is how my Scheme look like handles eval and load within own environments
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2015-10-09T12:26:16Z kephra: the code shows its result on [eval] ... not on [run]
2015-10-09T12:28:19Z kephra: side note: writing to files without mounting a server first results in a shadow file in local storage - so you can read a file by name from webserver, write it by same name to localstorage, and read the changed version back later
2015-10-09T12:28:37Z kephra: ... as long till the browser throws away local storage cache
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2015-10-09T14:41:10Z nilg: Any idea if there's already a function that returns a list without the nth item?
2015-10-09T14:41:27Z nilg: i.e. remove the nth item in a functional way...
2015-10-09T14:41:52Z taylan: nilg: did you look into SRFI-1?  it probably supports it in some indirect way.
2015-10-09T14:44:52Z taylan: nilg: see take and drop and their variants
2015-10-09T14:46:07Z nilg: thanks for the tip taylan!
2015-10-09T14:46:39Z taylan: hth
2015-10-09T14:46:58Z LeoNerd considers  (filter-by-index (lambda (x) (!= x n)) l)
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2015-10-09T14:50:46Z nilg: LeoNerd: excellent, but I can't find filter-by-index anywhere
2015-10-09T14:51:05Z LeoNerd: I was thinking out loud
2015-10-09T14:51:06Z LeoNerd: Write one :)
2015-10-09T14:51:09Z C-Keen: probably a combination of split-at and concatenate or the ! variants (and possible set-cdr!
2015-10-09T14:51:21Z C-Keen: )
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2015-10-09T15:09:15Z taylan: indeed, split-at should be more efficient than a take and a drop
2015-10-09T15:09:36Z taylan: (it basically merges them into one, evading the need to iterate to the given position twice)
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2015-10-09T17:17:02Z kephra: nilg, should this function copy a new list (functional) or is it ok to just do (lambda (l k) (let ((ret (list-tail l k)) (set-cdr! (list-tail l (- k 1) '()) ret)) ; untested
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2015-10-09T17:33:11Z BW^-: guys, is Haskell suitable for implementing DSL:s?
2015-10-09T17:33:21Z BW^-: i don't really care about H. ever, and I feel it has nothing to give,
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2015-10-09T17:33:40Z BW^-: though still I feel I should offer it some minimal level of curiosity, hence this q
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2015-10-09T17:37:22Z jcowan: Some people believe so.  When "We" point to Scheme, "They" point to Template Haskell for certain cases.
2015-10-09T17:38:07Z jcowan: Haskell's laziness does provide DSL-ish capabilities.
2015-10-09T17:39:51Z kephra: BW^-, it depends on the DSL
2015-10-09T17:40:43Z BW^-: mhm
2015-10-09T17:40:55Z kephra: imho, a requirement for an DSL is, that non technical people can edit it
2015-10-09T17:40:59Z BW^-: jcowan,kephra: i can feel that Scheme's strict evaluation helps in solving practical problems -
2015-10-09T17:41:14Z BW^-: jcowan,kephra: "emulating" strict evaulation in a lazy by default language appears ugly to me
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2015-10-09T17:41:20Z BW^-: jcowan,kephra: in particular emulating first class continuations there!!
2015-10-09T17:41:35Z jcowan: kephra:  By that standard Excel is a DSL, though problematic.
2015-10-09T17:41:52Z BW^-: kephra: that "non technical people can edit it" would depend on the kind of problem the DSL regards
2015-10-09T17:42:03Z BW^-: kephra: the DSL could be, connecitivity handling in an UDP-based communciations layer
2015-10-09T17:42:04Z kephra: jcowan, excel is a spread sheet language - highly domain specific
2015-10-09T17:42:11Z BW^-: kephra: good luck for a non tech person.
2015-10-09T17:42:29Z BW^-: anyhow.
2015-10-09T17:43:12Z kephra: BW^-, one typical way to solve the editing problem is: use XML as syntax of the DSL and use an XML editor
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2015-10-09T17:43:56Z kephra: the people who edit it must have domain knowledge - but they should not learn a complex language
2015-10-09T17:43:58Z adu: hi aftershave
2015-10-09T17:44:33Z aftershave: hello adu
2015-10-09T17:44:40Z BW^-: kephra: haha right, that approach is like shooting yourself in the foot with a bazooka, "for convenience"
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2015-10-09T17:44:58Z BW^-: kephra: popular in the java world!
2015-10-09T17:44:58Z BW^-: heh
2015-10-09T17:45:17Z kephra: BW^-, *agreed* its a typical "enterprise" approach, that is mainly known by Java bloat
2015-10-09T17:45:21Z adu: BW^-: I thought C was the language for shooting yourself in the foot
2015-10-09T17:45:33Z BW^-: adu: i don't agree, but i see your point
2015-10-09T17:45:50Z BW^-: adu: we're talking about two different shoot yourself in the foot
2015-10-09T17:46:09Z BW^-: adu: XML as DSL for general purpose stuff because the actual unerlying implementation language is crap
2015-10-09T17:46:23Z BW^-: adu: in a context of, could be said, de-facto crackpots
2015-10-09T17:46:29Z kephra: BW^-, but, e.g. the main w3dig is only 751 lines. w3dig is a DSL to define web crawlers.
2015-10-09T17:46:41Z BW^-: adu: (in some sense)
2015-10-09T17:46:46Z kephra: no XML does not necessary mean bloat
2015-10-09T17:47:03Z BW^-: adu: is to shoot yourself in the foot in the sense of "thinking you're on a straight path while you're not"
2015-10-09T17:47:10Z adu: Java bloat is more along the lines of trying to get to the Orange Juicer but there's a million tons of ammo in the way that you never got the chance to shoot yourself with
2015-10-09T17:47:19Z BW^-: adu: C would be shooting yourself in the foot in the sense, dealing with a complexity that might have been unanticipated
2015-10-09T17:47:29Z BW^-: adu: but there's not necessarily an aspect of actually being confused
2015-10-09T17:47:55Z BW^-: kephra: right, i agree that there are cases where XML can be of use
2015-10-09T17:48:07Z kephra: BW^-, the old Astalda/NewsDeck spider was "only" 1664 line for same language
2015-10-09T17:48:09Z BW^-: kephra: though I got to a place of seeing XML as a form of SXML, and SXML as a special form of any data or code
2015-10-09T17:48:14Z BW^-: kephra: and code in a general form is, well, code
2015-10-09T17:48:22Z BW^-: kephra: so.. a programming language does for it, and XML has no such quality
2015-10-09T17:48:32Z kephra: so ... even XML+Java does not always mean bloat
2015-10-09T17:48:49Z BW^-: kephra: ok i don't know in detail what you mean now but OK
2015-10-09T17:48:53Z BW^-: kephra: regarding your last line -
2015-10-09T17:48:54Z jcowan: http://www.toodarkpark.org/computers/humor/shoot-self-in-foot.html
2015-10-09T17:49:36Z BW^-: kephra: that's like saying that being so drunk as to score 20 on an IQ test, "not always means stupidity"
2015-10-09T17:49:45Z BW^-: hehe.
2015-10-09T17:49:45Z BW^-: anyhow.
2015-10-09T17:49:48Z kephra: ;-)
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2015-10-09T17:49:57Z BW^-: we understand each other -
2015-10-09T17:50:05Z BW^-: very well just wanted to ping your O. re Haskell.
2015-10-09T17:50:06Z BW^-: btw
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2015-10-09T17:50:17Z BW^-: something I think would be nice in Scheme, just to throw ideas
2015-10-09T17:50:18Z adu: I think of XML and SEXPs as being similar
2015-10-09T17:50:18Z BW^-: would be
2015-10-09T17:50:31Z BW^-: ( 1 ) Someone porting(reimplementing) the Shenandoah GC to Scheme languages
2015-10-09T17:50:44Z BW^-: Shenandoah is the world's only open source STW-free GC
2015-10-09T17:50:54Z BW^-: i.e., unlimited heap size support
2015-10-09T17:50:59Z BW^-: it's basically 6000 lines
2015-10-09T17:51:04Z BW^-: it's multi-cpu-core
2015-10-09T17:51:17Z BW^-: and 4000 lines stuff inlined in the host VM/compiler
2015-10-09T17:51:17Z adu: jcowan!
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2015-10-09T17:51:38Z BW^-: ( 2 ) someone implementing a good scheme-CPS -to- scheme compiler
2015-10-09T17:51:40Z jcowan returns from the dead, almost
2015-10-09T17:51:40Z BW^-: easy to use
2015-10-09T17:51:46Z BW^-: jcowan: ???
2015-10-09T17:52:10Z kephra: adu, one benefit of SEXP as DSL is that its much easier to manipulate them - and that the date is pseudocode path of a DSL is straightforward in Lisp like languages
2015-10-09T17:52:19Z BW^-: jcowan: was that a way for you to say that you liked what i just said ???
2015-10-09T17:52:51Z adu: kephra: "the date is pseudocode path of a DSL" can you explain what this means?
2015-10-09T17:53:02Z kephra: *oups* s/date/data/
2015-10-09T17:53:05Z adu: ah
2015-10-09T17:53:19Z jcowan: I'm not sure if you mean "writing Scheme on top of SH+Java" or "translating SH to Scheme"?
2015-10-09T17:53:30Z adu: SH=bash?
2015-10-09T17:53:37Z jcowan: Shenandoah
2015-10-09T17:54:19Z jcowan: Few Schemes have GCs written in Scheme.  Few Schemes run on the JVM.
2015-10-09T17:54:33Z BW^-: jcowan: no no no
2015-10-09T17:54:38Z BW^-: jcowan: Shenandoah should be and remain C/C++
2015-10-09T17:54:46Z BW^-: jcowan: what I meant was just, implement Shenandoah in Scheme VM:s!
2015-10-09T17:54:54Z kephra: http://o3db.com/app/contabi.html <- an example web app (take a look at HTML source) - http://o3db.com/app/contabi-schema.scm the pseudocode for defining the relations - http://o3db.com/app/contabi-forms.scm pseudocode for the forms
2015-10-09T17:54:56Z BW^-: jcowan: as in, port it to Gambit, Racket, Chicken, etc
2015-10-09T17:55:19Z BW^-: jcowan: I meant, "take the Shenandoah GC's sourcecode, and port it to Gambit, Racket and Chicken".
2015-10-09T17:55:22Z BW^-: just any
2015-10-09T17:55:24Z BW^-: your favourite
2015-10-09T17:55:58Z BW^-: jcowan: that Scheme implementation will then enjoy STW-freedom at any heap size
2015-10-09T17:56:04Z kephra: BW^-, Shenandoah is not STW-free but low pause
2015-10-09T17:56:12Z BW^-: kephra: it's essentially zero pause
2015-10-09T17:56:21Z adu: jcowan: I personally like how Rust and Haskell handle GC
2015-10-09T17:56:22Z BW^-: kephra: to compare with pause linear with the GC load whcih applies for all other GCs
2015-10-09T17:56:38Z BW^-: adu: those are readonly heaps, don't count
2015-10-09T17:56:57Z BW^-: adu: and Haskell has other probs - but, Erlang can be seen as interesting there
2015-10-09T17:57:29Z BW^-: jcowan: are you looking at Shenandoah ??
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2015-10-09T17:57:38Z jcowan:  What demands does Shenandoah put on the VM?  (URL?)
2015-10-09T17:58:00Z DGASAU: adu: that XML and SXML are similar is plain bullshit.
2015-10-09T17:58:12Z adu: DGASAU: I didn't say that
2015-10-09T17:58:15Z BW^-: jcowan: none
2015-10-09T17:58:21Z BW^-: jcowan: can you clarify your question?
2015-10-09T17:58:23Z adu: I said XML and SEXP were similar
2015-10-09T17:58:24Z BW^-: jcowan: ah!
2015-10-09T17:58:28Z BW^-: jcowan: it.. maybe it has one demand
2015-10-09T17:58:34Z DGASAU: adu: that's bullshit as well.
2015-10-09T17:58:42Z BW^-: jcowan: which is that the VM OS threads have the ability to lock to do that single uultra-short STW, at the same time
2015-10-09T17:58:43Z adu: DGASAU: BW said what you said
2015-10-09T17:58:47Z BW^-: jcowan: so, a synchronization requirement
2015-10-09T17:58:57Z BW^-: jcowan: however, the GC can wait for a long time with that STW
2015-10-09T17:58:57Z DGASAU: adu: <adu> I think of XML and SEXPs as being similar
2015-10-09T17:59:08Z DGASAU: adu: your words for reference.
2015-10-09T17:59:10Z adu: DGASAU: yes, that is what I said
2015-10-09T17:59:11Z BW^-: jcowan: anyhow, so it's a good thing that the OS VM threads have some kind of "interrupt check" that they run frequently
2015-10-09T17:59:16Z DGASAU: adu: and this is bullshit.
2015-10-09T17:59:17Z BW^-: jcowan: that's about it
2015-10-09T17:59:19Z BW^-: jcowan: more questions?
2015-10-09T17:59:32Z jcowan: I would rule out Chicken
2015-10-09T17:59:33Z BW^-: jcowan: the only real "backlash" with Shenandoah is that object reference comparison is expensive,
2015-10-09T17:59:34Z adu: DGASAU: how so?
2015-10-09T17:59:40Z jcowan: it runs in a single OS thread only
2015-10-09T17:59:45Z BW^-: jcowan: because both objects need to be in "to-space"
2015-10-09T17:59:56Z DGASAU: adu: because XML is (or has) a whole stack of associated technologies.
2015-10-09T18:00:03Z DGASAU: adu: S-expressions are not.
2015-10-09T18:00:10Z BW^-: jcowan: Shenandoah runs in MANY OS threads
2015-10-09T18:00:18Z BW^-: jcowan: it's a distributed GC, as to handle unlimited GC loda
2015-10-09T18:00:19Z BW^-: load
2015-10-09T18:00:20Z kephra: DGASAU, this was "similar" was in the context of "easy to use as a base syntax for an DSL"
2015-10-09T18:00:28Z BW^-: jcowan: ah - you meant chicken
2015-10-09T18:00:29Z BW^-: jcowan: now
2015-10-09T18:00:31Z jcowan: All that tech can be layered over s-expressions
2015-10-09T18:00:34Z BW^-: jcowan: can you clarify if you have any more Q to me?
2015-10-09T18:00:47Z BW^-: jcowan: also, do you know any person who may be interested in porting Shenandoah to any Scheme? =)
2015-10-09T18:00:48Z jcowan: not atm
2015-10-09T18:00:51Z DGASAU: jcowan: that's vacuous statement.
2015-10-09T18:01:08Z adu: DGASAU: are you saying that all of the languages and libraries available in lisp and scheme and all the history of SEXPs over the last 40 years doesn't exist?
2015-10-09T18:01:25Z BW^-: jcowan: mhm
2015-10-09T18:02:06Z DGASAU: "Every natural language has context-free grammar." <- Not entirely trivial, yet true statement.
2015-10-09T18:02:09Z DGASAU: (Well, "almost every," but you're unlikely to know such a language.)
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2015-10-09T18:02:46Z jcowan: Swiss German
2015-10-09T18:03:08Z DGASAU: jcowan: not even Swiss German.
2015-10-09T18:03:18Z DGASAU: adu: no, I mean that you need to develop a number of libraries only to recreate functionality existing for XML.
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2015-10-09T19:11:55Z leppie: Come back jcowan!
2015-10-09T19:12:13Z leppie: I want to show you something
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2015-10-09T20:09:57Z pjb: DGASAU: this may be true for written languages (following "official" grammars), but it seems to me that for oral languages, this is rather wrong.  The context is about everything to let you parse and understand oral languages.
2015-10-09T20:10:09Z pjb: a lot of them I mean.
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2015-10-10T18:15:32Z meatjive: hey guys, I have homework help. However, I am not looking for source code. But can someone talk to me about these questions because I am struggling to figure them out
2015-10-10T18:15:49Z vraid: meatjive: shoot
2015-10-10T18:16:15Z meatjive: http://pastebin.com/DyAG8AFY
2015-10-10T18:16:20Z meatjive: this is the homework
2015-10-10T18:16:23Z meatjive: just as a reference
2015-10-10T18:17:04Z meatjive: Let me pull up my answer to #1. Although it works, I feel like it doesnt actually work
2015-10-10T18:18:15Z meatjive: oh shoot
2015-10-10T18:18:21Z meatjive: I think I left it on my desktop
2015-10-10T18:20:51Z meatjive: Okay well for question one I essentially did. If not equal length, return #f. then if the car of both lists is equal, return cdr of the lists. If they are not equal, else = #f
2015-10-10T18:21:06Z meatjive: Is that the answer that is expected?
2015-10-10T18:21:16Z vraid: the sets are represented as lists with guaranteed with no duplicate elements?
2015-10-10T18:22:09Z vraid: meatjive: that solution would work if the sets are sorted, of which there are likely no guarantees
2015-10-10T18:22:10Z meatjive: I don't think so. I think it is just if the lists are equivalent
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2015-10-10T18:24:34Z meatjive: For the second question, what procedure do you think he means?
2015-10-10T18:25:02Z meatjive: I would know how do it in several lines, but the fact it's only 1 line is really confusing me.
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2015-10-10T18:26:12Z vraid: well, i don't have access to "quiz 1"
2015-10-10T18:27:11Z vraid: meatjive: but it feels like there should be some functions like "set-contains?, set-add, set-remove"
2015-10-10T18:28:13Z meatjive: so there is nothing in the standard library?
2015-10-10T18:33:08Z vraid: the standard library is very minimal, though many larger implementations will have it
2015-10-10T18:33:38Z vraid: but the fact that question 2 refers to functions from another quiz leads me to believe that there should be some available to you
2015-10-10T18:33:44Z meatjive: Well actually I have a much better question about question 2. This is what is giving me the biggest struggle.
2015-10-10T18:33:54Z meatjive:  (set-union ’(o p t) ’(t a p)) => ’(o p t a)
2015-10-10T18:34:03Z meatjive: How will I construct and return the newlist?
2015-10-10T18:34:19Z meatjive: I know about cons. But there is no third var I can shove it into?
2015-10-10T18:34:46Z meatjive: I grew up on java and C so scheme just really throws me off my game lol :)
2015-10-10T18:35:49Z vraid: start out simple
2015-10-10T18:36:03Z vraid: how would you do ; (set-union ’(o) ’(t)) => ’(o t)
2015-10-10T18:37:19Z meatjive: Would it be (cons (car ls1) (car ls2))?
2015-10-10T18:37:48Z vraid: close, but not quite. think of what kind of parameters cons takes
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2015-10-10T18:39:15Z meatjive: cons builds pairs right?
2015-10-10T18:39:55Z meatjive: Would I do (list (car ls1) (car ls2) instead?
2015-10-10T18:40:30Z vraid: that would have the desired effect, but only in this limited case
2015-10-10T18:40:42Z vraid: try this now (set-union ’(o) ’()) => ’(o)
2015-10-10T18:40:58Z meatjive: should I try to run it?
2015-10-10T18:41:17Z vraid: no, i mean try to recreate the result, using both input arguments
2015-10-10T18:41:19Z wasamasa: I dunno about you, but I'd use good ol' recursion to decide whether to add a thing to a list or not
2015-10-10T18:41:26Z wasamasa: and build an union that way
2015-10-10T18:42:02Z wasamasa: you start with either of the lists and chomp down the other one, slowly adding the distinct contents of it to the first list until you're done and return that as result
2015-10-10T18:42:56Z meatjive: yes
2015-10-10T18:43:02Z meatjive: that is what i just realized.
2015-10-10T18:43:10Z meatjive: my friend sent me a copy of his quiz 1
2015-10-10T18:43:50Z wasamasa: a similiar approach should work for the other ones
2015-10-10T18:43:54Z vraid: wasamasa: i was getting to that, but you need to have the basics down first ;)
2015-10-10T18:44:02Z wasamasa: if you're particularly clever, you can reuse the other functions you've built
2015-10-10T18:44:18Z meatjive: yeah that is what he is getting at i think
2015-10-10T18:44:24Z meatjive: he always structure hws like that
2015-10-10T18:44:38Z wasamasa: and as this is sets, I'm pretty sure it's possible
2015-10-10T18:44:54Z meatjive: my friend use exists?
2015-10-10T18:45:10Z meatjive: Does that make sense? I can't find the function reference for scheme
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2015-10-10T18:46:34Z vraid: there is a function called 'member'
2015-10-10T18:46:49Z vraid: you can use it to check if a list contains a given element
2015-10-10T18:47:06Z meatjive: oh okay i used that before
2015-10-10T18:48:14Z meatjive: but vraid
2015-10-10T18:48:20Z meatjive: How do I build that list still?
2015-10-10T18:50:19Z vraid: meatjive: to make a new list with cons, you want to cons an element and another list
2015-10-10T18:50:31Z vraid: so (cons t '()) -> '(t)
2015-10-10T18:50:41Z vraid: (cons o '(t)) -> '(o t)
2015-10-10T18:52:07Z meatjive: ohh
2015-10-10T18:52:22Z meatjive: so it shoves it into the second list
2015-10-10T18:53:34Z vraid: meatjive: don't let the Java/C thinking get to you know :)
2015-10-10T18:54:23Z vraid: meatjive: cons returns a *new* list that contains the second list, but the second list is unchanged
2015-10-10T18:55:10Z meatjive: oh
2015-10-10T18:55:23Z meatjive: so I need to pase the new constructed list into list 2 recursively?
2015-10-10T18:56:33Z wasamasa: you return the different list
2015-10-10T18:56:46Z wasamasa: and in order to return a different list based on another different list, you recur
2015-10-10T18:57:42Z vraid: meatjive: yep. one element at a time, recursively
2015-10-10T18:58:01Z meatjive: should I use member to create the union?
2015-10-10T18:58:10Z meatjive: I think I did it to find if it was a set or not
2015-10-10T18:58:31Z vraid: are you allowed to define your own functions for this assignment?
2015-10-10T18:58:32Z wasamasa: you use member to decide whether to cons something to the list or not
2015-10-10T19:00:02Z meatjive: no
2015-10-10T19:00:11Z meatjive: true okay
2015-10-10T19:02:45Z dTal: Well, bugger. Biwascheme has a bug - (load) simply doesn't work. The issue was reported in 2012 on the previous stable version, and the issue was closed with "doesn't reproduce with git master".
2015-10-10T19:04:00Z vraid: meatjive: in that case you'll have to do the member checks in the function
2015-10-10T19:04:33Z vraid: if the element is a member, list 2 is the union already, otherwise a cons gives the union
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2015-10-10T19:53:29Z dTal: I need a good name for a fusion of MIT Scratch and Scheme
2015-10-10T19:53:44Z leppie: Scream
2015-10-10T19:53:46Z dTal: Schratch springs to mind but it sounds the same
2015-10-10T19:54:02Z dTal: heh
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2015-10-10T19:54:50Z vraid: i guess MIT Scheme isn't the best name either
2015-10-10T19:55:03Z dTal: many interesting plays with "emacs", "ecmascript", emacs backwards ("scame"), but non that lead to a funny name that I can see
2015-10-10T19:55:11Z vraid: Scratcheme
2015-10-10T19:55:43Z dTal: i-Schreme ?
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2015-10-10T19:57:54Z dTal: "Surfy" is kinda cute
2015-10-10T19:58:51Z dTal: works pretty well for a web based, point n click scheme editor
2015-10-10T19:59:33Z mario-goulart: pronunciation clash with SRFI
2015-10-10T19:59:49Z dTal: that's the joke
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2015-10-10T22:37:36Z csguest__: csan someone help me with these two functions
2015-10-10T22:37:44Z csguest__: ive been trying to write the first one for hours
2015-10-10T22:37:48Z csguest__: and cant figure it out
2015-10-10T22:37:49Z csguest__: http://pastebin.com/jq00cxax
2015-10-10T22:38:05Z csguest__: literally 3 hours and all my solutions cant fit the given amount of lines
2015-10-10T22:43:08Z csguest__: oh my god nvm
2015-10-10T22:43:16Z csguest__: someone in my class told me we can use other functions
2015-10-10T22:43:21Z csguest__: that makes sense now
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2015-10-10T22:54:42Z pjb: csguest__: can you say, mathematically, when 2 mathematical sets are equal?
2015-10-10T22:55:41Z csguest__: they contain the same distinct elements
2015-10-10T22:55:53Z pjb: csguest__: This is English. I want maths.
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2015-10-10T22:56:18Z csguest__: What type of answer are you looking for?
2015-10-10T22:56:57Z pjb: (equivalent (set-equal? a b) (and (subset? a b) (subset? b a)))
2015-10-10T22:57:58Z pjb: or A=B ⇔ A⊂B ∧ B⊂A
2015-10-10T22:58:11Z pjb: so already, this is a single line for set-equal?
2015-10-10T22:59:02Z pjb: for subset?, mathematically, it's A⊂B ⇔ ∀x, x∈A ⇒ x∈B
2015-10-10T22:59:07Z csguest__: o_o
2015-10-10T22:59:24Z csguest__: i am not solid with maths
2015-10-10T22:59:25Z pjb: So again, one line (or perhaps two if you want to indent it nicely).
2015-10-10T22:59:30Z csguest__: so i know what some of those things mean
2015-10-10T22:59:31Z csguest__: but
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2015-10-10T23:01:30Z pjb: csguest__: you can take the mathematical definition/equations, and transform them to exhibit some recursivity.
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2015-10-10T23:04:21Z pjb: For example, for a relation R for the form: R(A) ≡ ∀x x∈A ⇒ P(x)   ≣    P(x) ∧ R(A∖{x}) ∧ R({})
2015-10-10T23:05:23Z pjb: That is, if you can select an element in A, then R(A) is true iff R(A∖{x}) is true and P(x), and if A is ∅  then R(∅) must be true.
2015-10-10T23:05:46Z pjb: this gives you the schema for a recursive processing of a list of elements of A.
2015-10-10T23:06:12Z csguest__: I figured out how to code it
2015-10-10T23:06:19Z csguest__: but now I just have a general error
2015-10-10T23:06:50Z pjb: (define (subset? a b) (or (null? a) (and (member (car a) b) (subset? (cdr a) b)))) so again one line.
2015-10-10T23:06:56Z csguest__: http://pastebin.com/t9DzYFmm
2015-10-10T23:07:32Z pjb: (define exists? member?)
2015-10-10T23:08:01Z csguest__: that is true
2015-10-10T23:08:05Z pjb: well, s/member?/member/
2015-10-10T23:08:11Z csguest__: it doesn't check for duplicates
2015-10-10T23:08:21Z pjb: It's not needed.
2015-10-10T23:08:36Z cojy: oh god not this one again
2015-10-10T23:10:05Z pjb: For union, to avoid duplicates, you can note that: A∪B = (A∖B)∪B
2015-10-10T23:10:36Z dTal_: So this doesn't seem to work: (define (add-to! lst thing) (set! lst (append lst (list thing))))
2015-10-10T23:10:58Z cojy: dTal_: set! set's a variable, doesn't change a data structure
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2015-10-10T23:11:14Z pjb: So again, a single line: (define (union a b) (cond ((null? a) b) ((member (car a) b) (union (cdr a) b)) (t (cons (car a) (union (cdr a) b)))))
2015-10-10T23:11:41Z dTal: cojy: thanks
2015-10-10T23:11:47Z csguest__: But wait.
2015-10-10T23:12:01Z csguest__: How do I get my set-equal function to even true though?
2015-10-10T23:12:06Z csguest__: I am so confused.
2015-10-10T23:12:57Z pjb: csguest__: so 3 lines in total.
2015-10-10T23:13:03Z pjb: (define (set-equal? a b) (and (subset? a b) (subset? b a)))
2015-10-10T23:13:19Z cojy: dTal: it would have to be a macro, or you would have to structure it differently, like lst being  a box holding the list
2015-10-10T23:13:49Z pjb: (set-equal? '(a b c) '(c b a)) --> ;Value: #t
2015-10-10T23:13:58Z pjb: csguest__: what do you mean?
2015-10-10T23:15:03Z csguest__: because I keep returning the (cdr set1), eventually it reaches null. Then returns #f when it recurses back. Even though it was true upon the last recurse
2015-10-10T23:15:03Z dTal: "box" huh
2015-10-10T23:15:13Z dTal: I didn't know Scheme had pointers :p
2015-10-10T23:15:32Z pjb: csguest__: Only () is set-equal? to ().
2015-10-10T23:15:51Z pjb: so if you test for (null? a) then you have to test for (null? b) too.
2015-10-10T23:16:06Z csguest__: I'm sorry what do you mean by ()?
2015-10-10T23:16:16Z csguest__: Or only ()
2015-10-10T23:16:20Z pjb: () is the empty list, and it represents the empty set.
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2015-10-10T23:17:39Z csguest__: What?
2015-10-10T23:17:52Z csguest__: I'm really sorry, but what do you mean?
2015-10-10T23:18:01Z pjb: What word?
2015-10-10T23:18:06Z csguest__:  (cond ((null? set1) #f)
2015-10-10T23:18:14Z csguest__: Is catching (set-equal? (cdr set1) set2))
2015-10-10T23:18:18Z pjb: In set-equal? this is wrong.
2015-10-10T23:18:47Z pjb: () is set-equal? to () therefore you must test for (), you cannot return #f indiscriminately.
2015-10-10T23:19:23Z csguest__: How would I do so?
2015-10-10T23:19:31Z pjb: so if you test for (null? a) then you have to test for (null? b) too.
2015-10-10T23:19:53Z pjb: (cond ((null? a) (null? b)) …
2015-10-10T23:20:18Z csguest__: either way itll be caught
2015-10-10T23:24:09Z pjb: Try: (set-equal? '(a b c) '(a b c d)) (set-equal? '(a b c d) '(a b c))
2015-10-10T23:25:07Z csguest__: this is true
2015-10-10T23:27:01Z csguest__: actually ill just say (not (null?
2015-10-10T23:27:05Z csguest__: that'll work
2015-10-10T23:30:19Z csguest__: oh wait..
2015-10-10T23:30:32Z csguest__: i think i finally just realized what you meant
2015-10-10T23:40:05Z dTal: So I have a "hello world" that won't run.
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2015-10-10T23:44:10Z dTal: The funny thing is (print "Hello World!") works when inserted into any function that gets called as part of an event handler
2015-10-10T23:44:27Z dTal: but plunking it right at the top level yields.... nothing
2015-10-10T23:49:27Z dTal fixed it
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2015-10-11T00:15:34Z pjb: dTal: what is a "hello world" that won't run?
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2015-10-11T00:17:15Z dTal: (print "Hello World!")
2015-10-11T00:17:35Z dTal: I'm having an alarming amount of trouble with it
2015-10-11T00:17:50Z dTal: in Biwascheme
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2015-10-11T00:37:17Z pjb: Oh, I don't know Biwascheme.
2015-10-11T00:37:28Z cojy: dTal: how are you running it?
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2015-10-11T01:31:02Z dTal: cojy: oh I've sorted it now - The first issue was that Biwascheme requires a "bw-console" div for "print" to work, and while I did have one I had put it below the <script> tag, which seemed to mean it was available after the script had finished but not before (so event handlers worked). Then I was having issues trying to move the code to a seperate file so my editor wouldn't get confused by the different languages, and (load) wasn't wo
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2015-10-11T01:34:34Z dTal: can't wait to get out of the mucky browser interface bits and on to the fun stuff though
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2015-10-11T01:47:57Z cojy: why using biwascheme
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2015-10-11T01:51:17Z dTal: Because the program I'm trying to make makes heavy use of an interactive nested box model, for which HTML+CSS is a natural fit
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2015-10-11T01:51:47Z dTal: Biwascheme seems to fairly comprehensive at DOM manipulation
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2015-10-11T04:34:50Z csguest__: How could I use filter to find the intersection between two sets?
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2015-10-11T04:45:01Z pjb: (filter (lambda (e) (member e a)) b)
2015-10-11T04:46:21Z pjb: Well, this is wrong, this is actually B∖A, not A∩B.
2015-10-11T04:47:24Z pjb: Sorry, I mean: this is actually B∖∁A and this is = A∩B.
2015-10-11T04:47:38Z pjb: (I'm not used to filter, but to Common Lisp remove-if and remove-if-not…).
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2015-10-11T05:03:02Z csguest__: I get filter: contract violation
2015-10-11T05:03:51Z dpk: which implementation are you using?
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2015-10-11T05:06:37Z csguest__: filter: contract violation
2015-10-11T05:06:37Z csguest__:   expected: (any/c . -> . any/c)
2015-10-11T05:06:37Z csguest__:   given: #f
2015-10-11T05:06:42Z csguest__: my bad sorry
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2015-10-11T05:06:50Z csguest__: (define set-intersection
2015-10-11T05:06:50Z csguest__:   (lambda (set1 set2)
2015-10-11T05:06:50Z csguest__:     (filter (member set1 set2) set2)))
2015-10-11T05:06:59Z dpk: i mean, what implementation of Scheme?
2015-10-11T05:07:03Z csguest__: racket
2015-10-11T05:07:28Z dpk: hmm. it sounds like you might be using a statically-typed variant of Racket? i think it has one built-in
2015-10-11T05:07:52Z dpk: even if so, i don't see where that error might be coming from
2015-10-11T05:08:02Z dpk defers to those with more knowledge of Racket
2015-10-11T05:09:04Z dpk: oh, you need to pass a lambda as the first argument to filter
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2015-10-11T05:09:26Z dpk: (filter (lambda (x) (member x set1)) set2)
2015-10-11T05:09:29Z dpk: bye then
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2015-10-11T16:42:11Z csguest__: yo would I solve question 3?
2015-10-11T16:42:13Z csguest__: http://pastebin.com/Pr4by6xg
2015-10-11T16:42:35Z csguest__: I know how to do it using a conditional statement. But how the heck would you filter it?
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2015-10-11T18:55:28Z pjb: csguest__: This page has been removed! Try http://paste.lisp.org/new and be sure to set it to never expire.
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2015-10-11T20:24:43Z jivemeat: hey
2015-10-11T20:24:55Z jivemeat: How is it even possible to write this in 1 line?
2015-10-11T20:24:56Z jivemeat: http://pastebin.com/QrML1c1a
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2015-10-11T20:27:42Z ecraven: jivemeat: depends on how long your lines are :p
2015-10-11T20:27:54Z jivemeat: yeah thats what i mean though
2015-10-11T20:28:21Z ecraven: what other functions have you written that you might use?
2015-10-11T20:28:21Z jivemeat: i'm not crazy for being like, theres no (filter equal? (1 2 1)) done! answer
2015-10-11T20:28:24Z wasamasa: depends on what was given before as reusable functions
2015-10-11T20:29:00Z jivemeat: http://pastebin.com/C9Wmwnzg
2015-10-11T20:29:06Z jivemeat: thats my full source
2015-10-11T20:30:27Z ecraven: for example, do you have a function EVERY (or maybe EACH)? using that, I'd say it's a one-liner
2015-10-11T20:30:50Z jivemeat: well
2015-10-11T20:30:52Z jivemeat: sorta..
2015-10-11T20:30:56Z jivemeat: exist kinda of does that
2015-10-11T20:30:57Z ecraven: srfi-1 calls it EVERY
2015-10-11T20:31:16Z ecraven: it's like EXIST, but it only returns true if *every* element matches, not if there is at least one
2015-10-11T20:31:24Z ecraven: EXIST is called ANY in srfi-1
2015-10-11T20:32:48Z jivemeat: hmm
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2015-10-11T20:33:10Z ecraven: think about what you want to do. every element of a has to exist in b. that's basically exactly what you write ;)
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2015-10-11T20:33:27Z jivemeat: excuse the paste
2015-10-11T20:33:37Z jivemeat: i have an unrelated question
2015-10-11T20:33:38Z jivemeat:   ((not (null? set1))
2015-10-11T20:33:38Z jivemeat:            (exists? (car set1) set2)
2015-10-11T20:33:38Z jivemeat:            (set-equal? (cdr set1) (remove (car set1) set2)))
2015-10-11T20:33:50Z jivemeat: is that valid for a cond statement?
2015-10-11T20:34:17Z ecraven: yes, but your (exists? ..) clause won't do anything
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2015-10-11T20:34:38Z jivemeat: how can I nest if statements?
2015-10-11T20:35:03Z ecraven: you can use AND and OR?
2015-10-11T20:35:09Z ecraven: or just nest an if inside the cond clause?
2015-10-11T20:35:15Z jivemeat: ohh
2015-10-11T20:35:16Z jivemeat: yes
2015-10-11T20:35:21Z jivemeat: good point and is good idea
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2015-10-11T20:39:58Z jivemeat: can i lambda it?
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2015-10-11T21:13:22Z pjb: jivemeat: I told you to use maths.
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2015-10-11T21:15:45Z pjb: jivemeat: A⊂B ⇔ A∩∁B=∅
2015-10-11T21:15:54Z pjb: this translates to a one-liner.
2015-10-11T21:16:19Z pjb: also, I told you that exists? was member.  If you keep re-implementing the functions available in scheme, you won't reach your goal…
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2015-10-11T23:34:32Z dTal: Man, getting a blank page instead of an error message is infuriating.
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2015-10-11T23:49:58Z dTal: Adventures in Biwascheme-land continue. I now have two identical programs, one of which works.
2015-10-11T23:52:09Z dTal: Well, not quite identical. One of 'em (loads) most of its content, the other has it directly written in. But that worked fine before.
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2015-10-12T00:02:40Z dTal: Maybe it's nested (loads) that don't work?
2015-10-12T00:10:37Z dTal: Nope, they work in the simple case.
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2015-10-12T01:16:08Z dTal: This is an extremely painful developing experience. I think I've narrowed down a large part of the issue to the browser ignoring file changes.
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2015-10-12T08:12:26Z DGASAU: pjb: no, it is especially true for spoken languages.
2015-10-12T08:12:38Z DGASAU: pjb: spoken languages have simplified grammar.
2015-10-12T08:14:11Z taylan: "I now have two identical programs, one of which works."  a good summary of 21st century computing
2015-10-12T08:15:16Z taylan: (not a diss to dTal, but to the state of the mass of software we all use)
2015-10-12T08:15:36Z taylan: GNU Guix to the rescue
2015-10-12T08:23:19Z pjb: DGASAU: obviously it's wrong.
2015-10-12T08:23:36Z DGASAU: pjb: obviously, you're wrong.
2015-10-12T08:23:42Z pjb: "no, it is especially true for spoken languages." is purely a contextual sentence. "it" means something different in different contexts!
2015-10-12T08:24:18Z DGASAU: It doesn't matter at all.
2015-10-12T08:24:37Z DGASAU: Whatever "it" means, it is still a pronoun.
2015-10-12T08:25:18Z pjb: There are a ton of examples of ambiguous sentences.
2015-10-12T08:25:27Z pjb: of ambiguous parses.
2015-10-12T08:25:29Z DGASAU: So what?
2015-10-12T08:25:48Z DGASAU: Do you need an example of ambiguous context-free grammar?
2015-10-12T08:25:52Z pjb: So the ambiguity is usually resolved with the context.
2015-10-12T08:26:04Z DGASAU: Ambiguity is irrelevant here.
2015-10-12T08:26:44Z DGASAU: Ambiguity and context-sensitivity are different things.
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2015-10-12T08:29:53Z aeth: Buffalo buffalo Buffalo buffalo buffalo buffalo Buffalo buffalo.
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2015-10-12T08:32:56Z aeth: There's also https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_while_John_had_had_had_had_had_had_had_had_had_had_had_a_better_effect_on_the_teacher
2015-10-12T08:32:56Z rudybot: http://teensy.info/Nxe8DvPDF8
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2015-10-12T08:35:09Z DGASAU: aeth: there's also famous "colourless green ideas sleep furiously."
2015-10-12T08:35:17Z aeth: yeah
2015-10-12T08:36:15Z DGASAU: In fact, it is more important here, since it demonstrates that even the lack of meaning doesn't entail non-grammaticality.
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2015-10-12T08:56:26Z nilg: is there an easy way to repeat a function call n times?
2015-10-12T08:58:22Z taylan: nilg: (for-each (lambda (i) (my-function)) (iota n))
2015-10-12T08:58:24Z LeoNerd: (for-each ..
2015-10-12T08:58:29Z LeoNerd: man literally what he said
2015-10-12T08:58:41Z LeoNerd: Except I was going to use  (lambda (x) ...
2015-10-12T08:58:43Z LeoNerd: but whatever :)
2015-10-12T08:58:48Z taylan: :D
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2015-10-12T09:00:55Z C-Keen: some schemes also have repeat or something similar
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2015-10-12T09:02:01Z taylan: honestly, I envy CL's dolist and dotimes sometimes
2015-10-12T09:02:03Z C-Keen: also if n becomes larger a named let and iterating over a variable may be faster and won't create too much garbage
2015-10-12T09:02:29Z C-Keen: CHICKEN has repeat and will expand it into such a loop
2015-10-12T09:02:38Z C-Keen: #;2> ,x (repeat 10 (hi!))
2015-10-12T09:02:40Z C-Keen: (##core#app
2015-10-12T09:02:42Z C-Keen:   (##core#letrec*
2015-10-12T09:02:44Z C-Keen:     ((loop (##core#loop-lambda (i) (when (< 0 i) (hi!) (loop (sub1 i))))))
2015-10-12T09:02:46Z C-Keen:     loop)
2015-10-12T09:02:48Z C-Keen:   10)
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2015-10-12T09:04:10Z C-Keen: taylan: chicken also comes with dotimes :)
2015-10-12T09:04:28Z ggole: What garbage would the for-each produce?
2015-10-12T09:04:40Z taylan: ggole: not for-each, but iota creates a list
2015-10-12T09:05:02Z ggole: Oh, of course. I was reading it as an iterator. :/
2015-10-12T09:05:06Z C-Keen: ggole: if n is 100000000 then first the list will be created
2015-10-12T09:05:26Z C-Keen: ggole: that practise won't let you solve euler problems very fast :)
2015-10-12T09:06:27Z taylan: if R6RS or R7RS got some proper adoption, we could all just be using foof-loop :\
2015-10-12T09:07:23Z C-Keen: foof-loop is pretty portable IIRC, it should work on most schemes
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2015-10-12T09:27:12Z taylan: I suspect that the mere annoyance of having to fetch it manually and wrap it in your native module boilerplate serves as an adoption barrier
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2015-10-12T14:07:16Z chocolatepi: hello
2015-10-12T14:07:33Z chocolatepi: Hello, world
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2015-10-12T14:34:06Z jayforsythe: anyone here?
2015-10-12T14:34:19Z jayforsythe: EXIT
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2015-10-12T14:47:02Z ecraven: so impatient...
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2015-10-12T14:56:49Z jayforsythe: Hi
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2015-10-12T14:57:00Z jayforsythe: Hi nanoz
2015-10-12T14:57:01Z taylan: hi
2015-10-12T14:57:25Z jayforsythe: I don't know why I'm here.....I'm learning scheme, though :P
2015-10-12T14:57:40Z taylan: feel free to ask any questions.  it might take a while for someone to answer though.
2015-10-12T14:58:20Z jayforsythe: It's funny that there's like 213 people here, but only 2 people are talking
2015-10-12T14:58:23Z jayforsythe: Maybe it's the wrong time of day
2015-10-12T14:58:30Z taylan: that's normal for every IRC channel
2015-10-12T14:58:49Z jayforsythe: What are all the other people doing? I'm sort of new to irc
2015-10-12T14:58:59Z jayforsythe: just listening for something interesting?
2015-10-12T14:59:11Z ecraven: I run IRC on my server, so I might not even see anything going on here
2015-10-12T14:59:16Z ecraven: but I can read the backlog later
2015-10-12T14:59:20Z taylan: to be honest, after years of IRC usage, I still don't know how come so many channels have totally inactive permanently logged-on users.
2015-10-12T14:59:39Z jayforsythe: interesting
2015-10-12T14:59:43Z ecraven: NSA loggers :p
2015-10-12T14:59:52Z jayforsythe: lol
2015-10-12T14:59:56Z jayforsythe: like this is some hacker show
2015-10-12T15:00:36Z jayforsythe: i got stuff to do, so bye :P
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2015-10-12T20:13:01Z dTal: Any idea where I can find some kind of machine readable definition of Scheme? Such as one might use when writing an intelligent editor?
2015-10-12T20:19:36Z dpk: there's a denotational semantic description of the language in the back of the Scheme reports
2015-10-12T20:20:37Z dpk: section 7.2 of the R7RS Small report
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2015-10-12T20:25:37Z Riastradh: That's mathematician-readable, not machine-readable...
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2015-10-12T20:30:07Z dTal: The document is almost the correct structure already. It just has all this bothersome human language mixed in.
2015-10-12T20:30:53Z dpk: what do you need? just the names of procedures? just the example code?
2015-10-12T20:31:04Z dpk: you could possibly try to parse it out of the TeX source of the report
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2015-10-12T20:31:50Z Riastradh: There's a machine-readable version at...appsolutions.com, is it?  Anton van Straaten's site, anyway.
2015-10-12T20:33:46Z dTal: It appears rather down. archive.org here I come...
2015-10-12T20:34:58Z dTal: Oh brilliant, archive.org is down too.
2015-10-12T20:37:50Z dTal: dpk: Well, I guess something along the lines of the "Standard procedures" section, but with the syntax definitions in the form of actual Scheme definitions, perhaps neatly tagged in some way with the human-readable descriptions as well.
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2015-10-12T20:39:37Z dTal: To be honest I was hoping to learn something from the structure of the file, and am surprised that such a thing isn't more common.
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2015-10-12T20:55:54Z amz3: héllo #scheme :)
2015-10-12T20:55:57Z dTal: Riastradh: thanks for trying, but the two files I could download from the archive aren't what I'm after, and the full zip is unavailable.
2015-10-12T20:56:32Z dTal: But man, I'd never have even found that on my own. Cheers.
2015-10-12T20:56:49Z Riastradh: Might be able to contact Anton by email.
2015-10-12T20:56:53Z Riastradh: Haven't seen him on IRC in years.
2015-10-12T20:57:24Z amz3: I'm looking for an micro/mini project to illustrate object oriented programmaing in scheme, that doesn't involve a dependency like GUI toolkit, do you have any idea?
2015-10-12T20:57:37Z amz3: I'm doing tutorial for guile
2015-10-12T20:59:05Z amz3: Ah yes, there is this indian board game which snakes
2015-10-12T20:59:18Z amz3: but it's not easy to represent
2015-10-12T20:59:43Z amz3: s/which/with
2015-10-12T21:00:43Z dTal: game of life, make each cell an object :)
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2015-10-12T21:01:27Z amz3: I'd like to use inheritance too
2015-10-12T21:01:38Z amz3: game of life, is indeed a good idea
2015-10-12T21:02:04Z amz3: I'm also thinking about Iterated Problem Dilemma
2015-10-12T21:02:17Z amz3: they are variation of IPD that looks like game of life
2015-10-12T21:02:32Z amz3: which I think is itself an instance of cellular automata
2015-10-12T21:03:01Z dTal: I was only kidding around, I think that would be a very cell-y way to implement it :p
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2015-10-12T21:04:29Z amz3: yes there is also this problem of having a problem that makes sens in OOP
2015-10-12T21:04:58Z amz3: I was doing python before, doing everything using class. Now I can't find a good example of the use of class
2015-10-12T21:05:16Z dTal was never much of a fan of OOP
2015-10-12T21:05:29Z amz3: dTal: how ?
2015-10-12T21:05:44Z vraid: dTal: limited use of classes can be really helpful
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2015-10-12T21:07:10Z dTal: oh I'm sure - yet every time I learned of a higher abstraction, like structured programming, first-class procedures, functional proramming etc, I got a kind of mind-opening sensation
2015-10-12T21:07:16Z dTal: except with objects
2015-10-12T21:07:53Z dTal: they just annoyed me and I could never see the point and no one could explain it to me satisfactorily
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2015-10-12T21:08:32Z dTal: eventually I figured it out but I've always had that little sour taste left over
2015-10-12T21:08:40Z vraid: dTal: well, say you've got different stateful input contexts. you want to capture the mouse input and have it work different way depending on the context
2015-10-12T21:08:57Z vraid: switching between objects of different classes makes quite a lot of sense there
2015-10-12T21:09:20Z dTal: so sue me, closures are big part of the appeal of Scheme to me - don't have to deal with objects :)
2015-10-12T21:09:41Z amz3: (coming up with example in GUI is easy, that the same people of invented OOP)
2015-10-12T21:09:57Z vraid: amz3: that's sort of the point ^^
2015-10-12T21:10:12Z dTal: vraid: that's an interesting example
2015-10-12T21:11:27Z kephra: dTal, try a real object oriented system, e.g. Smalltalk/X or Squeak
2015-10-12T21:11:41Z amz3: my point is, did anybody think about it as hard as the GUI people said they did?
2015-10-12T21:11:44Z dTal: my take would be "don't have multiple stateful input contexts, it's bad human factors"
2015-10-12T21:13:13Z dTal: kephra: I've often thought about it, just for the experience, but Smalltalk doesn't seem that practical right now
2015-10-12T21:13:36Z dTal: I'm getting plenty of kicks off Scheme and it's actually useful!
2015-10-12T21:14:34Z vraid: even if you don't save the state when you switch, making the code localized to different classes usually makes it easy to handle
2015-10-12T21:14:36Z kephra: OO from Scheme point of view is just glorified side effects
2015-10-12T21:15:16Z vraid: without having any state to handle, i would probably just pass functions as arguments somewhere
2015-10-12T21:15:42Z dTal: it's funny but I just this past day did exactly that in my current "project"
2015-10-12T21:16:48Z dTal: supposed to be a keyboard handler, each key gets to fire a thunk that has access to the current list of pressed keys
2015-10-12T21:19:14Z dTal: I'm starting to wonder if that's a dumb way of doing it though
2015-10-12T21:19:36Z amz3: I think I found the problem i want to use. Iterated Problem Dilemma aka. IPD. It's game where players can have different strategy and there is different kind of tournaments
2015-10-12T21:20:12Z amz3: guile sly use FRP for handling input
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2015-10-12T21:31:01Z dTal: Riastradh: got it :)
2015-10-12T21:31:56Z dTal: it's weird thouh
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2015-10-12T21:58:30Z wasamasa: dTal: what about http://www.scheme.com/tspl2d/grammar.html ?
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2015-10-12T22:00:34Z dTal: That's nice, although it could do with more of the standard library. But it's not machine-readable. I suppose it's the easiest thing to transcribe so far...
2015-10-12T22:01:05Z wasamasa: tsk tsk
2015-10-12T22:01:11Z wasamasa: calling a grammer not machine readable
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2015-10-12T22:01:44Z dTal: well, point me at the script :/
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2015-10-12T22:02:10Z wasamasa: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extended_Backus%E2%80%93Naur_Form
2015-10-12T22:02:25Z dTal: I mean yes in *theory* it's machine readable, in that it's unambiguous
2015-10-12T22:02:35Z dTal: but I can't (read) it
2015-10-12T22:02:48Z wasamasa: just turn it into ascii and write yourself an ebnf->whatever thing
2015-10-12T22:02:58Z wasamasa: schemers sure are spoiled :D
2015-10-12T22:03:51Z dTal: I am not trying to write an ebnf->whatever thing (although at this rate I might have to!) I am trying to write an editor. But I'm still amazed this doesn't exist already.
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2015-10-12T22:05:03Z dTal: I mean heck even my Chicken Scheme interpreter will happily spew out the information I want, minus the nice human descriptions
2015-10-12T22:05:10Z wasamasa: FWIW, read won't work on incomplete data
2015-10-12T22:05:16Z dTal: it's gotta be in there somewhere
2015-10-12T22:05:20Z wasamasa: which is pretty common when editing text
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2015-10-12T22:06:13Z dTal: if I type make-input-port without parentheses it prints #<procedure (make-input-port read322 ready?323 close324 . tmp321325)>
2015-10-12T22:06:42Z wasamasa: now try "("
2015-10-12T22:07:57Z wasamasa: and yes, a procedure's name evaluates to a procedure, duh
2015-10-12T22:08:24Z dTal: You are not very nice
2015-10-12T22:08:53Z dTal: the point is typing a procedure's name yields a very nearly machine readable function *signature*
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2015-10-12T22:09:40Z wasamasa: that's the way the procedure is printed
2015-10-12T22:11:42Z dTal: look all I'm saying is a (read)able list of standard function signatures ought to be such an easy thing to put together that I would have thought there'd be dozens of them in all sorts of different projects
2015-10-12T22:12:43Z dTal: I suppose I'll have to figure out how to do it myself and in the process learn something :p
2015-10-12T22:13:04Z wasamasa: this kind of reasoning is what leads to emacs not being the best text editor out there
2015-10-12T22:13:14Z wasamasa: so, yes, implement it
2015-10-12T22:13:39Z dTal: what kind of reasoning?
2015-10-12T22:13:57Z wasamasa: "This is such an easy thing, it must be there already, give me its name, damnit"
2015-10-12T22:15:09Z dTal: and yet people also complain about people reinventing the wheel badly instead of using tried and tested solutions
2015-10-12T22:15:39Z wasamasa: personally, I believe chicken doesn't do anything magical there and just happens to track the metadata of every procedure that was defined for it
2015-10-12T22:15:47Z wasamasa: same as with emacs
2015-10-12T22:15:56Z dTal: as I said earlier, I was hoping to learn something from this hypothetical document
2015-10-12T22:16:14Z dTal: not just save effort, inform me by its structure
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2015-10-12T22:17:11Z wasamasa: what if I told you it doesn't exist?
2015-10-12T22:19:55Z dTal: well then I'd say I was going to make it, and then I would either make it or find that it's impossible
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2015-10-12T22:21:53Z wasamasa: just tedious
2015-10-12T22:22:05Z dTal: it's helpful to distinguish between the practical (list of standard function signatures with tagged human readable descriptions) and the theoretically perfect (some kind of schemeification of the standards document)
2015-10-12T22:22:18Z wasamasa: feel free to make a xml representation of the various scheme standards
2015-10-12T22:22:39Z dTal: xml? not s-expression?
2015-10-12T22:22:50Z wasamasa rolls eyes
2015-10-12T22:23:47Z dTal: you should really try harder not to be mean
2015-10-12T22:24:57Z wasamasa: xml is the very first thing coming to my mind if you speak of machine-readable
2015-10-12T22:25:50Z dTal: that's a hilarious thing to say in #scheme
2015-10-12T22:26:49Z wasamasa: they pretty much look the same if you swap the angular braces for round ones
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2015-10-12T22:34:04Z pussygladiator: http://pastebin.com/7uNvXkV7
2015-10-12T22:34:13Z pussygladiator: How can I get this test function to double recurse with a let
2015-10-12T22:34:24Z pussygladiator: Like how can I set x to the value the letrec returns?
2015-10-12T22:35:14Z pussygladiator: so if I put in (test 100 10), this would return 80
2015-10-12T22:39:04Z pussygladiator: oh wait nevermind lol
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2015-10-12T22:39:10Z pussygladiator: i totally see the problem
2015-10-12T22:39:29Z pussygladiator: didnt realize why I was getting -10
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2015-10-12T22:57:05Z dTal: aha, found it
2015-10-12T22:57:08Z dTal: http://www.emacswiki.org/emacs/scheme-complete.el
2015-10-12T22:58:21Z dTal: might have known
2015-10-12T23:03:28Z dTal: guess it existed after all
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2015-10-13T11:21:59Z dTal_: Another useful Scheme syntax resource! Someone transcribed the BNF to a well-structured file, and someone else wrote a syntax checker based on it for a homework assignment: https://github.com/blacksails/syntax-checker-subset-of-scheme
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2015-10-13T23:05:08Z dTal: How come (let) bindings are two-item lists rather than alists? Wouldn't the latter be more semantically harmonious?
2015-10-13T23:05:55Z LeoNerd: alists?
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2015-10-13T23:20:02Z dTal: "association lists", lists of pairs essentially
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2015-10-13T23:47:37Z amz3: you could say, that it's more harmonious to have assoc defined as a list of 2 item list
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2015-10-14T00:25:49Z pjb: dTal: notice that there is no lisp syntax using dotted lists for code.
2015-10-14T00:26:22Z pjb: dTal: otherwise, using only proper list for data edited by the user makes his life easier.
2015-10-14T00:27:14Z pjb: dTal: You can even use transformations such as (plist->alist '(a 1 b 2 c 3)) --> ((a . 1) (b . 2) (c . 3)) ; to avoid having to type and edit the a-list.
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2015-10-14T00:39:44Z cjh`: dTal: so the difference is `(a b) vs `(a . b) ?
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2015-10-14T01:58:03Z pjb: cjh`: do you know that internally, (a b) is two pairs, while (a . b) is a single pair?
2015-10-14T01:58:55Z cjh`: pjb: yes, (a b) is (list a b) so takes up 2 slots with the final cdr being null, a.b takes up one (with the cdr set to b)
2015-10-14T01:59:38Z cjh`: pjb: I just wanted to check if I understood what dTal was saying
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2015-10-14T02:01:54Z pjb: cjh`: yes, you understood.
2015-10-14T02:03:15Z cjh`: pjb: ty
2015-10-14T02:09:35Z adu: hey
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2015-10-14T02:26:28Z dTal: pjb: thanks for the plist->alist tipoff
2015-10-14T02:28:54Z dTal: though I can't say I see how "using only proper list for data edited by the user makes his life easier", apart from the minor difference in typing
2015-10-14T02:30:42Z dTal: but you seem to hint at something more fundamental, it's quite true I can't think of any instances where dot syntax is used for executable code rather than data structures
2015-10-14T02:31:06Z cjh`: pjb: interesting comment about no lisp syntax using dotted lists for code, I had never noticed that
2015-10-14T02:32:10Z cjh`: pjb: I have always felt that dotted pairs were a special case / optimisation, and felt kind of last minute.
2015-10-14T02:32:27Z cjh`: pjb: but I have never actually going through the standing checking how often they are used
2015-10-14T02:33:19Z dTal: I would like my editor to render my code so that the chained cons cells and terminating null are always visible
2015-10-14T02:33:41Z cjh`: hhmmm, interesting.
2015-10-14T02:33:47Z dTal: just a little bit visible, not enough to be in the way but enough to remind me all the time that they're there
2015-10-14T02:34:05Z cjh`: dTal: any particular reason why?
2015-10-14T02:34:56Z dTal: an exercise in human factors that may or may not bear fruit - when a lisp expert looks at source code they see all sorts of things a newbie can't
2015-10-14T02:35:17Z dTal: but the editor can work out a lot of these things and display them more obviously
2015-10-14T02:36:10Z cjh`: dTal: if you wanted you could always do it with a refactoring tool
2015-10-14T02:36:36Z cjh`: dTal: changing all (list a b c) to (cons a (cons b (cons c nil)))
2015-10-14T02:36:43Z dTal: in general actually I think it could be good to decouple s-expressions from their textual representation - for example SRFI-62 specifies a (rather ugly) way of commenting s-exps out
2015-10-14T02:37:08Z dTal: whereas a smart editor could insert the comment marker but not show it, just graying out the s-exp instead
2015-10-14T02:38:16Z dTal: and actually I think you could pull a lot of "syntax sugar" into graphical interaction without compromising the semantics of the language
2015-10-14T02:39:56Z dTal: cjh`: I was thinking more just subtle borders around each list entry, and then you could shape the border so that each list entry formed a small arow into the next one
2015-10-14T02:40:36Z cjh`: dTal: when editing c/perl I have my vim configured to show tabs, trailing whitespace, and newline characters subtly
2015-10-14T02:41:01Z cjh`: dTal: layering on more interesting information is ... intereting.
2015-10-14T02:42:02Z dTal: well what I'm doing now is mapping s-expressions to HTML, and then I hope to be able to style the crap out of them to present really rich info
2015-10-14T02:42:03Z cjh`: dTal: for the sake of learning there is value, but you will have to work out what information is valuable enough to show
2015-10-14T02:42:30Z dTal: I
2015-10-14T02:42:30Z cjh`: dTal: you can also do things like parse/eval your code in the background and attach other information to them
2015-10-14T02:42:48Z dTal: yes, I'm thinking Scratch-like "types"
2015-10-14T02:42:51Z cjh`: dTal: e.g. you could have your editor show the types of things when hovered over
2015-10-14T02:43:28Z dTal: so e.g. predicate functions would be a certain "shape", and anything that wanted a predicate as an argument would have a slot the same shape
2015-10-14T02:43:36Z cjh` nods
2015-10-14T02:44:17Z cjh`: dTal: I do like the idea of using visual cues (shapes and colours) to display information that was once implicit / 'trapped in text'
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2015-10-14T02:44:53Z dTal: tell you what, attempting something that introspective is a fantastic way of learning a language
2015-10-14T02:45:47Z cjh`: I learned scheme by writing an interpreter, I found this very helpful.
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2015-10-14T02:52:02Z dTal: ahh, I haven't the patience to write an interpreter I fear. Brain'll just go "you have a perfectly good interpreter, why write another?"
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2015-10-14T02:52:52Z dTal: I suspect it's related to the reason I don't like exercise bicycles, or doing homework
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2015-10-14T02:58:17Z cjh`: I enjoyed seeing how scheme concepts (which I didn't yet know) mapped onto c concepts (which I did know)
2015-10-14T02:58:35Z cjh`: and how you can implement various scheme structures (like define) in terms of others (like let)
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2015-10-14T03:11:44Z pjb: dTal: I don't think it's anything fundamental.  Pairs are low level constructing blocks.  But from the start, the idea was to use lists of sexps.
2015-10-14T03:13:30Z pjb: dTal: check section 4.2 of AIM-8: http://www.informatimago.com/develop/lisp/com/informatimago/small-cl-pgms/aim-8/aim-8.html (on the bottom).
2015-10-14T03:13:31Z rudybot: http://teensy.info/WgBEBdrgCm
2015-10-14T03:16:34Z pjb: You can consider that the parentheses are commands for a structure editor.
2015-10-14T03:17:44Z pjb: Check for example: http://www.informatimago.com/develop/lisp/com/informatimago/small-cl-pgms/sedit/ ; with it, you would type no parentheses.
2015-10-14T03:17:45Z rudybot: http://teensy.info/CJvv09SeSn
2015-10-14T03:18:23Z pjb: (well, only it's so much easier to edit text than to give structural commands all the time, that some commands still read text and parse it).
2015-10-14T03:19:04Z pjb: cjh`: you might be interested in Lisp in Small Pieces   http://pagesperso-systeme.lip6.fr/Christian.Queinnec/WWW/LiSP.html  http://pagesperso-systeme.lip6.fr/Christian.Queinnec/Books/LiSP-2ndEdition-2006Dec11.tgz
2015-10-14T03:19:04Z rudybot: http://teensy.info/V109FE2ERI
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2015-10-14T03:20:23Z cjh`: pjb: ty, sounds fun :D
2015-10-14T03:21:16Z cjh`: pjb: sedit is also quite interesting, albeit probably impactical in it's current form
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2015-10-14T03:27:16Z pjb: cjh`: Interlisp had a better one, IIRC.
2015-10-14T03:27:46Z pjb: http://www.softwarepreservation.org/projects/LISP/interlisp-d  http://www.softwarepreservation.org/projects/LISP/interlisp
2015-10-14T03:31:00Z cjh` is really interesting the intersection of static editors and more dynamic environments (like repls)
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2015-10-14T11:33:11Z dTal: Thanks for the link to sedit, that's certainly gone in the scrapbook
2015-10-14T11:33:21Z dTal: I think I like its keybindings better than lispy's
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2015-10-14T14:23:06Z amz3: where is defined scheme minimal core aka. scheme primitives upon which all scheme can be implemented?
2015-10-14T14:23:22Z amz3: is it R6RS small?
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2015-10-14T14:24:32Z taylan: [answer repeated from other channel] the RnRS usually have a "primitive expression types" section, plus data type APIs which could be considered primitive.  note that some SRFIs or other extensions add further primitive forms and types.
2015-10-14T14:27:01Z amz3: :p
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2015-10-14T14:31:47Z taylan: just to save other potential answerers time :)
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2015-10-14T15:36:55Z xyh:  if do not use the OO framework of racket [or other lisp], how can I abstract out the duplicated code ?
2015-10-14T15:36:56Z xyh:  for example :: https://gist.github.com/xieyuheng/bc758136c4dbb96a0c83
2015-10-14T15:36:56Z xyh:  and :: https://gist.github.com/xieyuheng/bc758136c4dbb96a0c83#file-two-hash-table-without-oo-rkt
2015-10-14T15:36:56Z xyh:  two hash-tables, 'insert' and 'search' are the same algorithm, but 'hash-function' and 'key-equal?' are different.
2015-10-14T15:36:56Z rudybot: http://teensy.info/A8uSYh3QBd
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2015-10-14T15:39:57Z Riastradh: xyh: Store the hash and equality functions in the same object as the table.
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2015-10-14T15:45:59Z xyh: Riastradh: I can not store scheme functions into the hash-tables, because these hash-tables are low-level hash-table for a VM.
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2015-10-14T15:49:48Z Riastradh: OK, then store an integer key that something else interprets as a choice of hash/equality function.
2015-10-14T15:50:03Z Riastradh: (define hash:string 0) (define hash:string-ci 1) ...
2015-10-14T15:50:28Z Riastradh: (define (hash fn key) (cond ((eqv? key hash:string) ...) ((eqv? key hash:string-ci) ...) ...))
2015-10-14T15:50:40Z Riastradh: (eh, (eqv? fn ...))
2015-10-14T15:51:40Z xyh: ah! you mean make the hash function generic ?
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2015-10-14T17:53:18Z newdan: Does Scheme have any kind of packaging system? Is there anything like quicklisp for Scheme?
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2015-10-14T17:55:19Z mario-goulart: newdan: some implementations do.
2015-10-14T17:55:50Z newdan: quicklisp is nice because it's cross-implementation
2015-10-14T17:56:07Z newdan: So if I start using packages in Scheme I get tied to a specific implementation?
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2015-10-14T17:56:16Z mario-goulart: At the moment, yes.
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2015-10-14T17:56:57Z mario-goulart: There is an ongoing effort to make a common one for r7rs code, but it's not widely supported.
2015-10-14T17:57:16Z newdan: mario-goulart: Ah, I see. Thank you for letting me know. Any thoughts on what implementation has the best package ecosystem?
2015-10-14T17:57:45Z mario-goulart: http://snow-fort.org/
2015-10-14T17:57:55Z mario-goulart: (the one for r7rs) ^
2015-10-14T17:58:04Z zwdr: oh, that looks cool
2015-10-14T17:58:34Z zwdr: heh, snow, cool, eh
2015-10-14T17:59:51Z zwdr: lame jokes aside, I got K-lined by a proxy scanner two times now because it thinks Rackets webserver proxies requests via HTTP CONNECT
2015-10-14T18:00:10Z zwdr: which I couldn't reproduce, from several machines
2015-10-14T18:00:19Z zwdr: anyone experienced something like that?
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2015-10-14T18:06:27Z mario-goulart: newdan: I only know CHICKEN's, which is reasonably good.
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2015-10-14T18:09:24Z xyh: newdan: http://pkgs.racket-lang.org/
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2015-10-14T18:11:05Z xyh: newdan: quicklisp cross how many implementations ? three ? CCL and SBCL and ?
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2015-10-14T18:27:47Z newdan: xyh: Well I assume it also works on ABCL, CLISP, ECL and CMUCL but haven't tested that myself
2015-10-14T18:28:43Z newdan: From the website: "Quicklisp is easy to install and works with ABCL, Allegro CL, Clasp, Clozure CL, CLISP, CMUCL, ECL, LispWorks, MKCL, SBCL, and Scieneer CL, on Linux, Mac OS X, and Windows."
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2015-10-14T18:29:27Z newdan: So 11 it seems
2015-10-14T18:30:18Z xyh: cool
2015-10-14T18:31:53Z xyh: I tryed many, CCL is my favorite.
2015-10-14T18:46:21Z wasamasa: quicklisp discussion in #scheme?
2015-10-14T18:46:40Z xyh: haha ~ never again
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2015-10-14T18:48:54Z wasamasa: ok, I thought I was seeing things
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2015-10-14T19:06:10Z paroneayea: o/
2015-10-14T19:06:25Z paroneayea: some in here may be interested in this http://dustycloud.org/blog/sussman-on-ai/
2015-10-14T19:06:48Z paroneayea: a conversation I recently had with gjs on propagators and the direction of AI stuff
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2015-10-14T19:14:17Z xyh: cool
2015-10-14T19:14:49Z xyh: fans of sussman too :)
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2015-10-15T14:18:29Z leppie: Does anyone know if there is a task on rosettacode that would be implemented in scheme like: (apply map + seq) where seq is a list of lists, eg ((1 2 3) (4 5 6)) ?
2015-10-15T14:18:54Z leppie: I am interested to how other languages, specifically typed ones do this idiomatically
2015-10-15T14:19:46Z Riastradh: map sum . transpose
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2015-10-15T14:20:52Z Riastradh: Hugs> :l List
2015-10-15T14:20:52Z Riastradh: List> map sum . transpose $ [[1,2,3], [4,5,6]]
2015-10-15T14:20:52Z Riastradh: [5,7,9]
2015-10-15T14:21:12Z Riastradh: (apply map + '((1 2 3) (4 5 6)))
2015-10-15T14:21:13Z Riastradh: ;Value 14: (5 7 9)
2015-10-15T14:22:09Z leppie: Riastradh: cool :) but does the haskell solution work for any number of nested lists of any length?
2015-10-15T14:23:01Z Riastradh: List> map sum . transpose $ [[1,2], [3,4], [5,6]]
2015-10-15T14:23:01Z Riastradh: [9,12]
2015-10-15T14:23:15Z leppie: Riastradh: Thanks :)
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2015-10-15T14:26:11Z leppie: sorry, should been more specific earlier about typed, actually statically typed, but Haskell covers that
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2015-10-15T14:54:00Z ggole: leppie: it's also possible to type variadic functions directly, as in typed racket
2015-10-15T14:54:44Z leppie: typed/racket is the answer for most of my 'problems' :)
2015-10-15T14:55:38Z ggole: :)
2015-10-15T14:55:53Z ggole: It's pretty impressive how much of scheme they manage to cover.
2015-10-15T14:57:11Z leppie: very impressive, I have only touched on basic typed features for IronScheme like lambda/core forms and struct fields
2015-10-15T14:57:37Z leppie: still dreaming about type unions and generics
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2015-10-15T15:35:12Z nland: Can someone explain how to define a predicate for a constructor?
2015-10-15T15:35:26Z nland: Ex: (step? (left-step 2))
2015-10-15T15:36:01Z davexunit: I don't understand the question
2015-10-15T15:36:23Z nland: I would like to define a new predicate called step?
2015-10-15T15:36:45Z nland: If i pass a procedure (left-step 3) into that newly defined predicate
2015-10-15T15:36:51Z nland: it'll return true
2015-10-15T15:36:58Z davexunit: (left-step 3) is not a procedure
2015-10-15T15:37:12Z davexunit: left-step is a procedure
2015-10-15T15:37:21Z nland: right.
2015-10-15T15:37:35Z davexunit: (left-step 3) presumably returns some sort of value
2015-10-15T15:37:45Z nland: for the sake of simplicity lets say 3
2015-10-15T15:37:53Z davexunit: okay
2015-10-15T15:38:06Z nland: how can i determine if left-step is a step though.
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2015-10-15T15:38:19Z jayforsythe: hi
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2015-10-15T15:38:36Z davexunit: nland: well, what is a "step" anyway?
2015-10-15T15:39:06Z davexunit: you'll need something to distinguish a "step" from a number or any other type of value.
2015-10-15T15:39:32Z nland: that's what I'm struggling with
2015-10-15T15:39:50Z nland: I basically have to decompose a procedure to check what the procedure is
2015-10-15T15:39:58Z nland: and I'm not sure how to do that
2015-10-15T15:39:59Z davexunit: that's not correct.
2015-10-15T15:40:31Z davexunit: what do you mean by decompose a procedure?
2015-10-15T15:41:09Z nland: well, if I have (step? (left-step 3)), I need to somehow decompose (left-step 3) into a list or something of that nature.
2015-10-15T15:41:26Z nland: because otherwise, how does step? know what is being passed to it?
2015-10-15T15:41:26Z davexunit: the answer is ultimately "define a new data type, perhaps using SRFI-9", but I think you're missing something more fundamental.
2015-10-15T15:41:45Z nland: possible
2015-10-15T15:41:48Z davexunit: remember that (left-step 3) isn't a procedure, though.
2015-10-15T15:41:50Z nland: I'm pretty new to scheme.
2015-10-15T15:41:55Z davexunit: step? does not receive a procedure.
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2015-10-15T15:42:10Z nland: so in that case, what does step receive?
2015-10-15T15:42:11Z davexunit: (I'm assuming, of course, that 'left-step' does not return a procedure)
2015-10-15T15:42:26Z davexunit: nland: I do not know.  what does your 'left-step' procedure return?
2015-10-15T15:42:29Z davexunit: have you written it?
2015-10-15T15:42:34Z nland: I assume itll be a value
2015-10-15T15:42:45Z nland: it's part of a larger complex problem.
2015-10-15T15:43:04Z nland: This is homework, for the record. I can pastebin it if it helps you
2015-10-15T15:43:29Z davexunit: won't be necessary, but please use paste.lisp.org instead if you do need to use it.
2015-10-15T15:43:37Z nland: Ok
2015-10-15T15:43:42Z davexunit: pastebin has nasty measures in place to block Tor users.
2015-10-15T15:44:47Z davexunit: nland: you say this is homework, so I'm not inclined to give you direct answers to how I would do this in a modern scheme implementation.
2015-10-15T15:45:45Z nland: I understand, I'm not looking for the direct answer, I'm just not sure how to begin to implement.
2015-10-15T15:45:49Z nland: http://paste.lisp.org/+3D1T
2015-10-15T15:45:51Z nland: http://paste.lisp.org/+3D1U
2015-10-15T15:45:57Z davexunit: it sounds like the homework excerise may in fact want you to develop a means to do this
2015-10-15T15:46:02Z ggole: (Procedures are values.)
2015-10-15T15:46:10Z nland: the first is the instructions, and the second is what I'm given
2015-10-15T15:46:21Z davexunit: ggole: yes, yes.
2015-10-15T15:46:32Z davexunit: but there is a bigger mixup here.
2015-10-15T15:46:34Z nland: I've 'implemented' the *-step
2015-10-15T15:47:31Z ggole: "For each variant of the <step> datatype" seems like the idea is that you define a concrete data type to represent steps
2015-10-15T15:47:44Z davexunit: yes
2015-10-15T15:48:10Z davexunit: my question is: has the class introduced the notion of record types in Scheme or are the students to implement a type tagging system of their own?
2015-10-15T15:48:17Z ggole: Mmm.
2015-10-15T15:48:31Z nland: that doesn't sound familiar
2015-10-15T15:48:52Z nland: I fully understand this problem conceptually. But i'm super lost on the implementation.
2015-10-15T15:50:51Z davexunit: nland: so, assuming that you are implementing these types without the help of more advanced features of Scheme implementations, you were on the right track with using list structure as a possible implementation method.
2015-10-15T15:51:04Z ggole: If you are creating your own tagging, a very simple method is to use a symbol at the head of a list as the tag
2015-10-15T15:51:50Z nland: I guess that's where I'm getting confused
2015-10-15T15:52:38Z nland: lets say that (left-step 3) returns 3, If I do (step? (left-step 3)) How can I extract the 'left-step' piece of it
2015-10-15T15:52:57Z nland: because in that example, When I do (step? (left-step 3)), I'll only see 3
2015-10-15T15:53:23Z ggole: That's a good reason for left-step to not return 3, but a data structure on which you can easily perform that test.
2015-10-15T15:53:39Z davexunit: other questions: I see there are other predicates such as up-step?
2015-10-15T15:53:47Z nland: yes
2015-10-15T15:53:50Z davexunit: how do you distinguish different types of steps from each other?
2015-10-15T15:54:14Z nland: well I figured if I can pull that out into a list, then I can use a cond to determine which type it is.
2015-10-15T15:54:14Z davexunit: I am confident you can come up with a representation that will work.
2015-10-15T15:54:27Z davexunit: cons cells are the general-purpose glue you can use to form compound objects
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2015-10-15T16:01:31Z nland: Ok, I think I got it
2015-10-15T16:02:03Z nland: I think what I would do is return a list inside of (left-step)
2015-10-15T16:02:18Z nland: hard code a '(left-step n)
2015-10-15T16:02:27Z nland: n is what is being passed to (left-step)
2015-10-15T16:02:57Z ggole: That's a start, yep
2015-10-15T16:03:10Z ggole: Think about how you would implement step? with that choice.
2015-10-15T16:03:11Z nland: wow, I don't know why I was so hung up on that.
2015-10-15T16:03:34Z nland: well my thoughts about that are, i could (car) that list, and if it contains step, then it's true
2015-10-15T16:03:43Z ggole: If it contains left-step?
2015-10-15T16:04:16Z ggole: The thing is, you are going to implement right-step and up-step and seq-step, etc. And step? will have to work on those.
2015-10-15T16:05:01Z ggole: You can do it that way, just have a think about how it would work
2015-10-15T16:07:01Z nland: yes.
2015-10-15T16:07:12Z nland: Thank you for the help
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2015-10-15T16:55:26Z nland: You know that feeling, when you're working on something for a while, and then you get it :D
2015-10-15T16:56:59Z davexunit: :)
2015-10-15T16:58:00Z nland: I think I was originally overcomplicating the issue. I tend to do that.
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2015-10-15T18:25:56Z aap: does anybody happen to have a pdf of alonzo church's calculi of lambda-conversion?
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2015-10-15T18:33:38Z zwdr: I swear I had one, but I can't find it
2015-10-15T18:33:40Z zwdr: :c
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2015-10-16T02:02:53Z wabi: hi?
2015-10-16T02:06:43Z pjb: hi!
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2015-10-16T02:13:08Z wabi: pjb: why no one chats?
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2015-10-16T02:16:36Z pllx: why
2015-10-16T02:17:04Z pjb: wabi: because they're programming.  Do you have any scheme question?
2015-10-16T02:17:44Z pllx: writing R
2015-10-16T02:17:46Z pllx: bah!
2015-10-16T02:20:08Z wabi: ya , im just starting with programming ; can u tell me whats wrong with this: (define (sqsum) (+ (square (larger x y)) (square (larger x y z)))
2015-10-16T02:20:31Z wabi: the error says no variable found
2015-10-16T02:21:45Z pjb: x and y are not defined, indeed.
2015-10-16T02:21:47Z pjb: and z.
2015-10-16T02:21:55Z pjb: Also, did you define square, and larger?
2015-10-16T02:22:11Z wabi: yea i defined those
2015-10-16T02:22:16Z pjb: You can use http://paste.lisp.org/new to show more code.
2015-10-16T02:22:32Z pjb: But x y and z are not.
2015-10-16T02:22:48Z pjb: What do you think they are or want them to be?
2015-10-16T02:24:01Z wabi: i dont want to give them a number yet, just to have the function ready for whatever 3 numbers
2015-10-16T02:24:10Z pjb: wabi: you might want to learn by heart r5rs.  check: http://www.schemers.org/Documents/Standards/R5RS/HTML/
2015-10-16T02:24:29Z pjb: So you want them to be formal parameters of the function.
2015-10-16T02:24:39Z pjb: But you definde a function that takes no parameter: (sqsum).
2015-10-16T02:24:58Z wabi: this is for one of the first excersices of sicp
2015-10-16T02:25:04Z pjb: Yes.
2015-10-16T02:25:25Z pjb: sicp kind of presuppose you know r5rs or you can learn it. After all, it's only 50 pages. Learn it by heart.
2015-10-16T02:25:43Z wabi: o
2015-10-16T02:26:13Z wabi: ill read it thanx
2015-10-16T02:26:31Z pjb: wabi: so (sqsum x y z)
2015-10-16T02:27:01Z pjb: wabi: notice how the syntax of define, which defines a scheme variable, takes a kind of "curried" form to declare functions.
2015-10-16T02:27:24Z pjb: wabi: (define sqsum (lambda (x y z) …)) can be written as: (define (sqsum x y z) …)
2015-10-16T02:28:08Z pjb: wabi: this is practical, since you can start by defining the API of your functional abstraction by listing "tempaltes" of function call: (sqsum x y z)  then wrap it in a define with the definition.
2015-10-16T02:28:25Z wabi: i dont know what curried means but sounds tasty
2015-10-16T02:29:09Z pjb: It's a thing in purely functional programming languages, where functions take only one argument, and multi-argument functions are functions of a single argument returning a function of the rest of the arguments.
2015-10-16T02:29:26Z pjb: So: (lambda (x y z) …) can be written: (lambda (x) (lambda (y) (lambda (z) …)))
2015-10-16T02:29:51Z pjb: And when you call it: ((lambda (x y z) …) 1 2 3) becomes ((((lambda (x) (lambda (y) (lambda (z) …))) 1) 2) 3)
2015-10-16T02:31:06Z pjb: This tranformation is called currying from Haskell Curry. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Currying
2015-10-16T02:32:08Z pjb: Oops, I meant: ((((lambda (x) (lambda (y) (lambda (z) …))) 3) 2) 1)
2015-10-16T02:33:29Z wabi: hmmm
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2015-10-16T02:36:50Z pjb: wabi: usually, functions take arguments.  Mathematical functions that don't take arguments are called "constants".  In programming language, functions that don't take arguments would be useless, if side-effects didn't exist.  But since the syntaxes for function call and to get variable or constant value are different, sometimes you need a function of zero argument instead of a constant variable.
2015-10-16T02:37:53Z pjb: (define (zero) 0) (define (one) 1)  (map (lambda (f a) (apply f a)) (list zero one +) '(() () (1 1))) --> (0 1 2)
2015-10-16T02:38:13Z pjb: If you had (define zero 0) (define one 1), the map wouldn't work, because you cannot apply an integer.
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2015-10-16T02:40:18Z wabi: thats too advanced for me
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2015-10-16T02:40:48Z pjb: wabi: it's really not sophisticated; this is math you learned between 10-15 yo.
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2015-10-16T02:42:12Z wabi: lol ive got bad memory and my school wasnt that good
2015-10-16T02:42:36Z pjb: Yes, I realize that. Most people should really ask refunds for their lame education.
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2015-10-16T02:44:38Z wabi: for example i dont know how to use map, apply, list
2015-10-16T02:44:58Z pjb: This is in r5rs.  sicp will give several examples.
2015-10-16T02:45:17Z pjb: Perhaps you should read a scheme tutorial before reading sicp.
2015-10-16T02:45:27Z wabi: ya
2015-10-16T02:45:49Z pjb: Check http://www.schemers.org/
2015-10-16T02:47:49Z wabi: ok
2015-10-16T02:48:36Z pjb: How did you define larger? (since it takes once 2 arguments and once 3; this is rather advanced for a newbie).
2015-10-16T02:50:35Z wabi: (define (larger x y) (if (> x y) x y))
2015-10-16T02:50:52Z pjb: Here it takes only two arguments.  But you called (larger x y z) in sqsum.
2015-10-16T02:51:11Z wabi: i also have largest
2015-10-16T02:51:21Z pjb: Notice that there are max and min in r5rs
2015-10-16T02:51:43Z wabi: it seems i forgot to include largest
2015-10-16T02:52:28Z wabi: typed larger twice , made that mistake
2015-10-16T02:52:44Z wabi: with min and max would be easier i guess
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2015-10-16T02:57:15Z wabi: instead of "larger x y z " it should say "largest x y z"
2015-10-16T02:57:26Z pjb: ok
2015-10-16T02:57:45Z wabi: i defined all that but i used help heheh
2015-10-16T02:57:48Z pjb: notice that max takes a variable number of arguments.
2015-10-16T02:57:49Z wabi: was hard
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2015-10-16T03:11:15Z wabi: thanx
2015-10-16T03:11:40Z wabi: irc is great
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2015-10-16T08:10:47Z ecraven: is there anything like Parenscript in Scheme?
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2015-10-16T08:53:19Z kephra: ecraven, there are dozens of Scheme for JS implementations
2015-10-16T08:53:34Z kephra: e.g. Spock as compiler, or mine as interpreter
2015-10-16T08:55:41Z kephra: but mine is only a scheme look like that surprisingly passes most of r4rs tests, even if it has no cons cells
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2015-10-16T09:01:20Z __uu__: have you read the SICP (structure and interpretation of computer programs)?
2015-10-16T09:01:38Z __uu__: sorry, not supposed to be here
2015-10-16T09:14:35Z kephra: __uu__, exactly - basically who read SICP knows how to code something like parenscript - and many did
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2015-10-16T09:15:41Z __uu__: maybe I am too stupid to grasp all stuff in that book
2015-10-16T09:15:46Z kephra: let me guess - we have 202 people in this channel - we have 20 Scheme implementors here ;-)
2015-10-16T09:15:48Z __uu__: could understand part of it
2015-10-16T09:16:10Z __uu__: 19, except me
2015-10-16T09:16:36Z wasamasa waits for the mandatory "Is SICP really that good?" rant
2015-10-16T09:17:27Z kephra: wasamasa, is teaching SICP beyond good and evil?
2015-10-16T09:17:57Z wasamasa: kephra: nah, I'm just refering to a troll sometimes showing up here and rephrasing this question
2015-10-16T09:18:13Z __uu__: so, is it really that good?
2015-10-16T09:18:14Z kephra: ;-)
2015-10-16T09:18:46Z wasamasa: yeah, I think it is
2015-10-16T09:19:27Z __uu__: wasamasa: did you finished every exercise in that book?
2015-10-16T09:29:24Z wasamasa: __uu__: of course not
2015-10-16T09:30:03Z wasamasa: __uu__: how do you even get that idea?
2015-10-16T09:30:32Z __uu__: I heard stories about excellent programmers
2015-10-16T09:30:43Z wasamasa: there we go again
2015-10-16T09:30:53Z __uu__: and the existing solutions online
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2015-10-16T11:49:35Z amz3: héllo, how would you explain what lift procedure does in general terms?
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2015-10-16T15:08:01Z leppie: Has anyone done a port SCMUTILS for R6RS?
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2015-10-17T05:59:39Z danb83: I'm trying to figure out "define-syntax".  Can I define new syntax for "define"? (Like, how can I define "foo" so that writing "(foo x)" is equivalent to writing "(define x 2)"?)
2015-10-17T06:00:54Z danb83: (For the obvious thing, Racket complains: "define: not allowed in an expression context".)
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2015-10-18T08:43:42Z tuxbrave: What is the point about hygienic macros?? They are really hard, common-lisp style macros like define-macro or defmacro seems better, easier and scalable.
2015-10-18T08:44:40Z ecraven: tuxbrave: hygiene is the point
2015-10-18T08:44:53Z ecraven: it is really hard, to get defmacro-style macros right
2015-10-18T08:48:54Z tuxbrave: I don't understand what is the point about the hygienic macros  what are their advantages. Define-macro is easier and less lines of code. Some scheme implementations removed the define-macro like racket and chicken scheme.
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2015-10-18T08:56:54Z kephra: tuxbrave, hygenic macros allow a compile time expansion - while simple Lisp macros aways expand at runtime
2015-10-18T09:00:25Z kephra: the difference is: Scheme has syntax-rules to define syntax - while a macro is just a dynamic expansion
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2015-10-18T09:13:23Z kephra: also, as ecraven pointed out - hygiene is automatic - e.g. look at define do and case in http://o3db.com/client/o3lib.scm - how complex those "simple" macros could become, if one wants to express syntax in a hygenic (gensym) way
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2015-10-18T10:31:50Z pjb: kephra: this is totally wrong. In CL, macros always expand at compilation time.
2015-10-18T10:32:07Z pjb: There's no reason why it would have to be different in scheme.
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2015-10-18T10:34:54Z kephra: pjb, you have to run a simple Lisp macro to cause its expansion - while a syntax rule is a pure compile time extension of syntax
2015-10-18T10:35:55Z pjb: Yes.
2015-10-18T10:36:20Z pjb: In the case of simple macro, you call eval. In the case of syntax rule, you call eval-syntax-rule. I fail to see the difference.
2015-10-18T10:36:27Z kephra: if you look at R4RS (without eval) - you basically have a compiler friendly language with Scheme syntax
2015-10-18T10:36:39Z kephra: R5 introduces the evil of eval
2015-10-18T10:37:05Z pjb: What's compiler friendly, is to have the lisp environment inside the compiler.  And inside the editor. And inside the application. And everywhere.
2015-10-18T10:37:36Z kephra: so, we agree that syntax rules are much more compiler friendly then lisp macros?
2015-10-18T10:38:20Z pjb: No.  Since we have to have eval anyways, I prefer to use it (and it's more powerful than) rather than having to have to implement a new eval-syntax-rule (that's definitely less powerful).
2015-10-18T10:39:09Z pjb: Or shall I write expressive instead of powerful, I'm not even sure that syntax rules are not turing complete, which would defeat the purpose entirely.
2015-10-18T10:39:10Z kephra: btw, my scheme look like only implements simple lisp macros - because they are much simpler to implement ;-)
2015-10-18T10:39:19Z pjb: See?!
2015-10-18T10:39:56Z kephra: syntax rules are much more restricted in what they could do
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2015-10-18T10:40:54Z pjb: Don't you have to implement escape to scheme anyways?
2015-10-18T10:41:16Z kephra: escape? - you mean quasi quotes?
2015-10-18T10:41:26Z kephra: yes, R4 includes quasi quotes
2015-10-18T10:41:40Z kephra: so Lisp like macros become trivial to implement on top of them
2015-10-18T10:41:55Z kephra: ... if one implements a Scheme look like
2015-10-18T11:04:35Z pjb: kephra: no, I mean that when defining syntaxes, there's a way to get the sexp from the syntax objects, process it with normal scheme code, and turn a resulting sexp back into a syntax object. I don't remember the exact functions, but it means that you still have to have eval embedded in your syntax rule evaluator.
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2015-10-18T16:38:41Z gremble: Working through sicp, (define (p) (p)) is an infinite loop function, correct?
2015-10-18T16:40:37Z wasamasa: basically
2015-10-18T16:40:52Z wasamasa: defining it works fine, but if you call it, it will call itself again, with no end in sight
2015-10-18T16:41:36Z gremble: Pretty much like :(){:|:&}; only linearly instead of exponential.
2015-10-18T16:41:41Z gremble: schweet. thanks
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2015-10-20T05:09:51Z zacts: hello schemers
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2015-10-20T05:36:00Z ecraven: hey zacts
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2015-10-20T05:43:24Z zacts: hi ecraven
2015-10-20T05:43:39Z zacts: I just figured out how to get chicken scheme to work with geiser
2015-10-20T05:44:01Z zacts: http://wiki.call-cc.org/emacs#geiser
2015-10-20T05:44:10Z zacts: ^ I guess you have to install a couple of chicken scheme eggs first
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2015-10-20T07:09:35Z ecraven: nice
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2015-10-20T18:25:39Z jayforsy2he: Hello!
2015-10-20T18:25:59Z zwdr: hey
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2015-10-20T19:28:06Z zacts: hello
2015-10-20T19:28:13Z zacts: 'lo schemers
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2015-10-20T19:29:50Z jcowan: hey ho zacts
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2015-10-20T19:34:51Z zacts: yo
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2015-10-20T20:17:27Z dTal: just got nerd sniped on StackOverflow
2015-10-20T20:17:35Z dTal: http://stackoverflow.com/questions/26690799/comparing-equality-of-two-lists-of-numbers-in-scheme
2015-10-20T20:17:36Z rudybot: http://teensy.info/tNhcAwpIeA
2015-10-20T20:18:05Z dTal: nothing like a long, clumsy attempt to lure one into code golf
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2015-10-20T20:20:32Z dTal: (my effort: http://codepad.org/ipivDHMT )
2015-10-20T20:21:52Z dTal: I wish that style were less verbose in scheme
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2015-10-20T20:24:48Z zacts: (HAL)
2015-10-20T20:24:53Z zacts: ^ the ultimate non-verboseness
2015-10-20T20:25:25Z ecraven: more verbose, but doesn't convert to a number :) http://paste.lisp.org/display/157214
2015-10-20T20:25:42Z zacts: we need a psychic programming language
2015-10-20T20:25:54Z zacts: psychic-scheme
2015-10-20T20:26:01Z zacts: (HAL)
2015-10-20T20:26:03Z zacts: (HAL)
2015-10-20T20:26:05Z zacts: :-P
2015-10-20T20:26:24Z zacts: it will AI figure out whatever you want to do, and then you just press a big red button so to speak
2015-10-20T20:26:55Z zacts: (the point being that there is a balance between verboseness and non-verboseness) it's finding the right balance that can be difficult
2015-10-20T20:27:02Z zacts: or so I would assume
2015-10-20T20:27:08Z zacts: but I am still newbie at this
2015-10-20T20:27:18Z zacts: I'm learning scheme
2015-10-20T20:27:27Z dTal: bit better http://codepad.org/nck7ZRhv
2015-10-20T20:27:33Z ecraven: you can always define macros and functions to make things less verbose
2015-10-20T20:27:34Z zacts: I've been slacking for a few years now wanting to learn it, and now I'm actually doing it
2015-10-20T20:28:37Z boycottg00gle: 4:4?
2015-10-20T20:28:57Z boycottg00gle: sorry, wrong channel
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2015-10-20T20:32:37Z dTal: Is this document comprehensive of what (pretty-print) does? https://uva.onlinejudge.org/external/8/864.html
2015-10-20T20:33:17Z dTal: ecraven nice
2015-10-20T20:33:31Z dTal: missed your paste
2015-10-20T20:33:47Z ecraven: dTal: could probably be less verbose, not even sure whether it's correct :)
2015-10-20T20:34:06Z ecraven: dTal: you could add support for other special forms than IF, but basically that should be it
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2015-10-20T20:36:08Z dTal: seems to work :)
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2015-10-21T00:33:35Z dTal: beat my par again http://paste.lisp.org/display/157217
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2015-10-21T00:42:12Z tessier: 1/win 41
2015-10-21T00:42:14Z tessier: ops
2015-10-21T00:42:16Z tessier: oops
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2015-10-21T00:48:57Z jcowan: I need a plausible example of a function taking a number as an argument that returns another number in some circumstances and false in others.  It's easy to contrive one, but I'd like a fairly realistic one.  Any ideas?
2015-10-21T00:54:31Z dTal: Any mathematical function with a restricted domain?
2015-10-21T00:56:04Z dTal: A function in a game that returns damage dealt on a hit, and false on a miss?
2015-10-21T00:57:06Z Riastradh: modular inverse?
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2015-10-21T00:58:58Z dTal: If you're doing math the factorial function is a nice familiar one.
2015-10-21T00:59:32Z dTal: You'd return false for < n 0
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2015-10-21T01:12:11Z jcowan: dTal:  Factorial sounds like an excellent idea.  Thanks.
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2015-10-21T01:19:01Z dTal: I did not know that. (0.5)! = sqrt(pi)/2
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2015-10-21T01:23:29Z dTal: or sqrt(tau)/(2*sqrt(2)) depending on your point of view.
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2015-10-21T01:30:03Z jcowan: The existence of the gamma function is a very curious thing
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2015-10-21T11:50:30Z mobius-eng: Hi all! Does anybody use chicken-scheme on Windows?
2015-10-21T11:51:20Z mobius-eng: I can install chicken binaries, but cannot build eggs with mingw-64 (msys2) gcc...
2015-10-21T11:51:43Z mobius-eng: And I cannot build chicken from sources using that compiler
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2015-10-21T16:43:07Z wasamasa: mobius-eng: you should ask #chicken, really
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2015-10-23T22:05:57Z leppie: A different kind of scheme, with comments http://stackoverflow.com/q/33311956/15541 (kinda cute)
2015-10-23T22:06:47Z leppie is toughing that one with a 40 foot barge pole ;p
2015-10-23T22:07:03Z leppie is NOT touching that one with a 40 foot barge pole ;p
2015-10-23T22:08:26Z jcowan hands leppie the 56-foot pole reserved for such occasions
2015-10-23T22:09:12Z leppie: level up!
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2015-10-23T22:22:00Z leppie: jcowan: I need a longer pole!
2015-10-23T22:22:51Z leppie: user replied: "I don't understand your statement." Guess I am not expressing myself...
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2015-10-25T12:15:59Z Tbone139: decided to try out racket's drawing capabilities, here's my prototype of an imaginary-number function mapper, this being (a+bi)^2 http://i.imgur.com/O41ELC8.png
2015-10-25T12:20:35Z Tbone139: by the way, are graphics inherently object-like or is that a constraint of the language racket was coded on?
2015-10-25T12:23:32Z wasamasa: that is a choice of the library author
2015-10-25T12:24:03Z wasamasa: one possible approach would be providing a canvas object and functions operating on the canvas, then asking the canvas for the current representation
2015-10-25T12:24:08Z wasamasa: which is what cairo does
2015-10-25T12:24:50Z wasamasa: alternatively you could do it the low-level way and manipulate the canvas directly :D
2015-10-25T12:25:12Z wasamasa: or maybe even generate the graphics by providing a few formulae and turning the result into an image
2015-10-25T12:35:02Z wasamasa: Tbone139: it all depends on what you call "object-like"
2015-10-25T12:35:30Z wasamasa: Tbone139: is a struct an object?
2015-10-25T12:35:39Z wasamasa: Tbone139: or is it rather about the way the library is used?
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2015-10-25T12:38:04Z Tbone139: wasamasa: In that light I'd say the usage made me think that, but I might be overestimating the difference between (make-object color%) and a (make-color) variant
2015-10-25T12:38:47Z wasamasa: Tbone139: to me it would be object-like if I had to instantiate an instance of anything I want to draw
2015-10-25T12:39:17Z wasamasa: or worse, use methods of these instances :D
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2015-10-25T12:41:23Z wasamasa: the HTML5 canvas API would be another candidate to check out
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2015-10-25T12:43:11Z Tbone139: I'll take a look, though I was more curious than put-off. Thanks!
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2015-10-25T17:16:48Z ruste: Question.
2015-10-25T17:17:05Z ruste: I'm trying to write a really simple loop macro in chibi-scheme.
2015-10-25T17:17:16Z ruste: Unfortunately, chibi-scheme does not have gensym.
2015-10-25T17:18:15Z ruste: So, it would seem I need to find a way to have partial hygien using define-syntax.
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2015-10-25T17:19:08Z ruste: Basically I'd like to do this: (loopvar sym a b stuff) to do stuff with the identifier sym varying from a to b.
2015-10-25T17:19:58Z ruste: So, is there any way I can make an intentionally unhygienic macro?
2015-10-25T17:21:06Z wasamasa: https://github.com/ashinn/chibi-scheme/blob/master/doc/chibi.scrbl#L243-L255
2015-10-25T17:21:06Z rudybot: http://teensy.info/S1XRVI6kh3
2015-10-25T17:21:27Z wasamasa: you should be able to break it with the low-level primitives
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2015-10-25T17:23:28Z ruste: I'll check it out, thanks. I'm beginning to think it might be easier to just implement a really terrible little gensym that would work for my purposes though.
2015-10-25T17:23:55Z ruste: Wouldn't be perfectly hygienic unfortunately.
2015-10-25T17:24:26Z wasamasa: personally, I believe it's a fine choice of the language to eschew unhygienic macros
2015-10-25T17:24:41Z wasamasa: because passing a lambda to a function allows you to avoid writing a macro in the first place
2015-10-25T17:25:20Z wasamasa: see for-each for instance
2015-10-25T17:27:42Z ruste: I don't doubt you're right. I just don't think I've had enough experience with macros yet to appreciate hygien at the level you do. I'll do my best to use their hygienic ways because I'm sure it will make things easier later.
2015-10-25T17:31:03Z fizzie: The macro you're asking for doesn't sound unhygienic to me.
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2015-10-25T17:31:38Z fizzie: It's not that much different from e.g. 'do', for which there's an example syntax-rules definition in the R5RS: http://www.schemers.org/Documents/Standards/R5RS/HTML/r5rs-Z-H-10.html#%_sec_7.3 (right at the end)
2015-10-25T17:31:38Z rudybot: http://teensy.info/dk4D5GpgDU
2015-10-25T17:31:58Z wasamasa: do is great for confusing the heck out of unsuspecting schemers :D
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2015-10-25T17:38:18Z fizzie: Something to the tune of (define-syntax loopvar (syntax-rules () ((loopvar sym a b stuff ...) (let loop ((sym a)) stuff ... (if (< sym b) (loop (+ sym 1)) #t))))) sounds like a perfeclty hygienic implementation of the macro you described. Cf. http://sprunge.us/NVIN
2015-10-25T17:39:14Z fizzie: (Now, if you wanted it to implicitly define an `i` that you could refer from `stuff`, without you giving it that symbol in the macro invocation, that would be another matter.)
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2015-10-25T19:15:04Z pjb: wasamasa: do is great because we have the same in CL. Using do, you can write programs that run both in CL and in scheme ;-)  Have a look at (intersection common-lisp emacs-lisp scheme) http://www.informatimago.com/develop/lisp/com/informatimago/small-cl-pgms/intersection-r5rs-common-lisp-emacs-lisp/
2015-10-25T19:15:04Z rudybot: http://teensy.info/X56wi8kOXh
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2015-10-25T19:22:13Z wasamasa: pjb: I wonder why it made it into R5RS
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2015-10-25T20:35:27Z pjb: wasamasa: to show to students how iteration is bad, and how recursion is good.  The main application of scheme, it's sicp. It's a pedagogical programming language, even more so than Pascal.
2015-10-25T20:36:39Z wasamasa: nono, it surely must have slipped in from a previous revision of the standard and that because someone forgot to remove that bit originating from an older lisp dialect
2015-10-25T20:37:02Z wasamasa: pascal is a fine language, capable of everything you'd do in C while maintaining a simpler syntax
2015-10-25T20:37:24Z wasamasa: why does that sound like the beginning of a scheme vs. CL argument...
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2015-10-25T20:38:37Z pjb: :-)
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2015-10-25T20:39:04Z pjb: I'm not saying it's bad. Pascal also started as a pedagogical programming language, and it was a great system programming language too.
2015-10-25T20:39:30Z pjb: And so far, scheme made it into the linux kernel, not CL.
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2015-10-26T07:07:11Z taylan: pjb: wasamasa: I believe 'do' is there not to show people how bad it is but because it's been there since the very early days where Scheme was implemented on MacLisp and that had 'do' and I'd guess they wanted to show the crazy stuff you can do with tail recursion and macros...
2015-10-26T07:08:04Z taylan: the first Scheme standard was R3RS (the prior ones just AI Memos), and once something made it into there you'll note it pretty much sticks forever because backwards compatibility
2015-10-26T07:10:35Z evhan likes `do`, but also wouldn't mind if it went missing from the next standard...
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2015-10-26T07:29:08Z aeth: do is great. You can implement some really fancy algorithms in do, often with no body, just messing with the steps and the return expression.
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2015-10-26T21:37:30Z jcowan: If anyone wants to remove a weakness and restriction in Scheme, they should figure out some way of having a less static coupling between a procedure that accepts a functional argument and the procedure it calls.
2015-10-26T21:38:01Z jcowan: Right now, the protocol by which "map" (to take a random example) calls the proc to be mapped over a list is completely undiscoverable except by reading the manual.
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2015-10-26T21:41:25Z ecraven: jcowan: on some schemes, using something like slime in emacs, you can look at a function's source code in the IDE, which really helps for discovering how stuff is implemented.. but of course that's not what you mean ;)
2015-10-26T21:41:41Z jcowan: Right.
2015-10-26T21:42:09Z jcowan: The problem arises when there are two procedures which purport to do the same thing, but invoke their procedural argument in incompatible ways.
2015-10-26T21:42:56Z jcowan: On the API side, you can resolve this most of the time with a little dynamic typing and case-lambda, but on the SPI side you have nothing, since there is not even procedure arity inspection, never mind inspecting procedures to see what types they expect.
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2015-10-26T21:52:17Z taylan: jcowan: I think my idea on optional-to-handle values (mirror to optargs) might be relevant there, but I don't really have any hope of them catching on any time soon  (not counting "discard all superfluous values" semantics)
2015-10-26T21:53:01Z taylan: and keyword args, when performance doesn't matter much
2015-10-26T22:00:04Z jcowan: That helps up to a point, but it's not general enough for problems like R7RS-small vs. SRFI 34 versions of vector-map (where the SRFI version passes the index as a leading arg but the R7RS version does not).
2015-10-26T22:00:25Z jcowan: case-lambda can handle that fine on the flip side
2015-10-26T22:01:03Z jcowan: BTW, I have taken to heart your objection of SRFI 114, and I've written a new pre-SRFI to do comparators in a more Schemey way.  Would you be interested in reviewing it?
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2015-10-26T22:02:34Z jcowan: s/SRFI 34/SRFI 43
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2015-10-26T22:05:44Z jcowan: taylan: ^^
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2015-10-26T22:07:08Z jcowan: anyway, it's temporarily at http://www.ccil.org/~cowan/temp/srfi-128.html (the SRFI number is subject to change)
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2015-10-27T14:38:44Z Octophore`: does call/cc "break" scheme / make it harder to reason about, or is it generally ok to use? (i.e. should it be avoided as "goto" is in imperative languages?)
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2015-10-27T14:39:17Z LeoNerd: It certainly breaks implementations ;)
2015-10-27T14:39:36Z LeoNerd: Generally, if you think you need it, you probably really wanted to use something else; maybe  call/ec  if you have it
2015-10-27T14:39:58Z Octophore: alright
2015-10-27T14:40:08Z LeoNerd: You *can* do really powerful things, but sometimes you didn't want or need that power. If all you wanted was escaping, that's what  call/ec  is for
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2015-10-27T15:56:12Z taylan: Octophore: anything call/cc does, delimited continuations can do too, and they have none of the associated problems.
2015-10-27T15:56:37Z jcowan: Indeed.
2015-10-27T15:56:40Z jcowan: taylan: ping
2015-10-27T15:57:14Z LeoNerd: call/cc is the most powerful, but requires the most of the interpreter to implement. most use-cases can use less powerful versions that are easier in some way.
2015-10-27T15:57:21Z taylan: jcowan: pong
2015-10-27T15:57:32Z LeoNerd: E.g.  call/ec is like call/cc but you make the guarantee that you're only going to invoke the continuation at most once. It's for escaping
2015-10-27T15:57:42Z taylan: LeoNerd: call/cc is not more powerful than delimited continuations, for all practical purposes...
2015-10-27T15:57:52Z LeoNerd: Hmm
2015-10-27T15:57:53Z zwdr: I found this page a good read
2015-10-27T15:57:54Z zwdr: http://okmij.org/ftp/continuations/against-callcc.html
2015-10-27T15:58:10Z taylan: ^
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2015-10-27T15:59:22Z jcowan: call/cc is less powerful than delimited continuations (it can be simulated by a continuation whose mark is outside the program), but it is strictly more powerful than call/ec, e.g. in backtracking.
2015-10-27T15:59:55Z jcowan: taylan: Can you look at SRFI 128 and see if it removes some of your objections (assuming they are not categorical) to SRFI 114
2015-10-27T15:59:56Z jcowan: ?
2015-10-27T16:02:07Z jcowan: You can do coroutines with call/ec provided you install a driver coroutine whose job is to call the next coroutine for you, and they put less strain on the system than full call/cc.  Lua provides call/ec in the form of coroutines.
2015-10-27T16:04:48Z taylan looks
2015-10-27T16:05:53Z jcowan: Riastradh: ping
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2015-10-27T16:12:51Z taylan: jcowan: I'm afraid I can't judge its quality on its own terms because it's very foreign to me.  though I can point out the issue that we don't want the hash functions in SRFIs 126 and 128 to be different
2015-10-27T16:13:07Z jcowan: I agree with that, or SRFI 125 or SRFI 113 either.
2015-10-27T16:13:30Z jcowan: If by different you mean incompatible.  If by different you mean including a different list, I'm okay with that.
2015-10-27T16:13:50Z jcowan: (I will publish an erratum to SRFI 113, updating it to use 128, after 128 finalizes)
2015-10-27T16:14:19Z jcowan: Conceptually, comparators are just instances of a Haskell type class or a Java interface: they give you a standardized way of doing certain things.
2015-10-27T16:14:51Z taylan: I understand that we want *something* like this eventually to be able to have generic data structures with the user remaining agnostic to the implementation, but I'm still not sure if it's worth the effort to standardize it now
2015-10-27T16:15:25Z jcowan: That's why I've tried to make it as small as practicable.  SRFI 114 was huge, because it tried to incorporate all of SRFI 67, which had never been pruned.
2015-10-27T16:16:48Z taylan: oh and yeah I mean incompatible re. hash functions
2015-10-27T16:16:52Z jcowan: I agree with Scheme's basic monomorphism, but it would be insane to have specizalized hash table types for every conceivable equality predicate, and comparators give us a way of doing the needful with least fuss.  Define a comparator in one line, pass it around to constructors to use as needed.
2015-10-27T16:17:11Z jcowan: Do you agree with the signature (hashfn object [ bound [ salt ]])?
2015-10-27T16:17:42Z jcowan: with the proviso that hash functions that think they know what they are doing are allowed to ignore bound and salt even if they are provided?
2015-10-27T16:18:04Z taylan: whether it does or doesn't accept a salt makes the difference between how salting is handled at all in an implementation, unless we do some weird compatibility dance to somehow still allow both strategies
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2015-10-27T16:18:27Z taylan: e.g. if a hash function just ignores the provided salt, that's really not nice
2015-10-27T16:18:43Z taylan: if it has to obey it, but also has its own salting, there's duplicated effort
2015-10-27T16:19:26Z taylan: from what I know, everyone in the world has their hash functions manage their own salting, and none of the arguments for the salt argument seemed convincing in the context of SRFI-126 so I went with that
2015-10-27T16:19:57Z taylan: so I went with what others do, I mean
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2015-10-27T16:35:55Z jcowan: The idea with being allowed to ignore the salt (but discouraged from doing so) is that one of the main uses of user-written hash functions is to be perfect in the context of particular data.  A salt would pervert the intention.
2015-10-27T16:36:06Z jcowan: I am fine with saying that no *standard* hash function may ignore the salt.
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2015-10-27T19:26:40Z wasamasa: what is call/ec?
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2015-10-27T19:32:25Z kephra: wasamasa, likely call-with-escape-continuation
2015-10-27T19:32:35Z wasamasa: aha
2015-10-27T19:32:47Z kephra: a reduced form of call/cc, with lower memory footprint
2015-10-27T19:33:25Z kephra: e.g. i'm using call/ec for error handling
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2015-10-27T20:28:03Z taylan: wasamasa: if the program returns from that continuation in any way, be it naturally or by calling the reified continuation, the reified continuation object becomes invalid, so practically the program can't return from that place twice.  this can be used for things like 'continue', 'break', and 'return'; in particular note the similarity to CL's 'block' form
2015-10-27T20:29:48Z taylan: (CL's "block" and Scheme's "let/ec" are more or less the same)
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2015-10-28T05:20:42Z samssammerz: I'm trying to understand all of the different let keywords, and the terminology behind them ... is it correct to say that (let ((x 2) (y 3)) (* 2 x y)) creates a local scope where x is bound to 2, and y to 3, and then evaluates (* 2 x y) in that scope?
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2015-10-28T05:40:33Z pjb: samssammerz: yes.
2015-10-28T05:41:01Z pjb: It's a lexical scope even, and the bindings are lexical bindings.
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2015-10-28T05:50:31Z samssammerz: pjb - Thanks, I just wanted to be sure I was understanding. And yes, that's a good point to think more clearly about what type of scope/binds it is creating.
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2015-10-28T07:04:36Z kephra: samssammerz, one should not the difference between let and let* - the calculation for the let bindings do not see the bindings yet, while let* can access the binding while initialization
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2015-10-29T19:19:58Z rsully: what is "..." in lisp/scheme?
2015-10-29T19:20:22Z rsully: I'm not sure what to google for
2015-10-29T19:20:34Z Riastradh: In syntax-rules?
2015-10-29T19:20:48Z Riastradh: If so, it means `the preceding thing, repeated any number of times'.
2015-10-29T19:21:12Z rsully: ah yeah in syntax rules
2015-10-29T19:21:16Z rsully: thanks
2015-10-29T19:21:56Z jcowan: Any number of times *including zero*, a very important point
2015-10-29T19:22:12Z jcowan: It is the only postfix operator in Scheme, which is rather confusing
2015-10-29T19:22:41Z rsully: just trying to read app inventor's runtime file, a little bit much as a first time lisp intro
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2015-10-29T19:37:38Z jcowan: Anywhere else in Scheme, ... would just be a normal identifier, but it would be pretty unconventional to use it that way
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2015-10-30T00:47:18Z kete: Do schemers use scheme to make websites?
2015-10-30T00:48:00Z wasamasa: why not
2015-10-30T00:48:04Z kete: If so, is there a way to import html templates?
2015-10-30T00:48:40Z kete: or "include" as php does?
2015-10-30T00:48:52Z wasamasa: no need to do things as PHP does
2015-10-30T00:49:02Z wasamasa: use sxml instead!
2015-10-30T00:49:05Z wasamasa: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SXML
2015-10-30T00:49:19Z kete: oh
2015-10-30T00:49:27Z wasamasa: just unquote or splice into the sxml tree, then serialize it to xml/html
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2015-10-30T00:50:56Z daviid`: kete, as an example, this site is written and maintained in guile scheme https://www.gnu.org/software/guix/
2015-10-30T00:51:08Z kete: I don't understand that "jargon" wasamasa
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2015-10-30T00:51:20Z daviid`: http://git.savannah.gnu.org/cgit/guix/guix-artwork.git/tree/website
2015-10-30T00:51:23Z wasamasa: kete: you haven't used backquote yet?
2015-10-30T00:51:36Z davexunit: `(foo bar ,(+ 1 2 3))
2015-10-30T00:51:39Z davexunit: => (foo bar 6)
2015-10-30T00:52:34Z kete: if that's a backquote, no
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2015-10-30T00:54:04Z davexunit: aka "quasiquote"
2015-10-30T00:54:26Z davexunit: it quotes an expression, but with the option to escape the quoting for a sub-expression using unquote, or ","
2015-10-30T00:54:57Z davexunit: quasiquote/unquote form Scheme's built-in templating functionality
2015-10-30T00:56:01Z kete: so steep learning curve to modularize my html with scheme?
2015-10-30T00:56:11Z davexunit: SXML is XML/HTML represented as s-expressions: '(p "hello, I like" (a (@ (href "http://schemers.org")) "Scheme") "!")
2015-10-30T00:56:21Z davexunit: kete: no
2015-10-30T00:56:46Z davexunit: pretty small curve because you get to use everything you know about Scheme to generate XML and HTML
2015-10-30T00:57:06Z davexunit: no need to learn another templating language
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2015-10-30T00:57:20Z davexunit: string-based templating bad, s-expressions good.
2015-10-30T00:57:50Z kete: I'm not in a rush, so I can start learning.
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2015-10-30T00:59:32Z kete: there's a tutorial on the wikipedia page.
2015-10-30T00:59:49Z kete: (link)
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2015-10-30T01:19:55Z kete: Does a web server need to run a parser for SXML?
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2015-10-30T01:23:42Z synergistics: Can you have generators fit into functional programming without state monads?
2015-10-30T01:27:20Z daviid`: kete: xml/html webpages are generated from sxml, used by the web server.  you should look at the paste i mde [2 paste] above...
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2015-10-30T01:28:31Z daviid`: xml/html pages are used by we servers [not sxml]
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2015-10-30T01:55:33Z kete: daviid`, how would I generate the xml/html? if I change the static parts that are on every page, would I have to regenerate?
2015-10-30T01:56:20Z daviid`: kete: yes, create/use a make file ...
2015-10-30T02:05:36Z daviid`: kete: here is another [guile scheme] simpler example http://web.cvs.savannah.gnu.org/viewvc/guile-gnome/?root=guile-gnome   see Makefile, env
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2015-10-30T02:50:15Z kete: sxml seems like advanced scheme
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2015-10-30T07:10:57Z wasamasa: lol
2015-10-30T07:11:03Z wasamasa: it's just a list
2015-10-30T07:11:12Z wasamasa: there's absolutely nothing special about it
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2015-10-30T07:42:12Z wasamasa: kete: I can recommend studying the technology behind web services instead of blindly copying whatever PHP would do
2015-10-30T07:42:46Z wasamasa: kete: not only will you have a greater understanding of what is going on, no, you'll do better than PHP at pretty much everything :D
2015-10-30T07:43:04Z wasamasa: kete: ok, except ease of deployment and winning the popularity contest maybe
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2015-10-30T10:05:14Z kete: wasamasa, what web services? I feel a little insulted. I quit studying php years ago. It's a poor language.
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2015-10-30T23:55:31Z nilg: what is the preferred way to return a nil object in scheme? The empty list, or #f?
2015-10-31T00:00:44Z pjb: You're ready to switch to Common Lisp.
2015-10-31T00:01:08Z pjb: I'd use the empty list: (define nil '())
2015-10-31T00:01:34Z pjb: #f is often a default value in scheme, so you might use that instead.
2015-10-31T00:02:06Z pjb: Or you may just (define nil 'nil) and return the symbol nil, to avoid any envy between () and #f.
2015-10-31T00:02:23Z davexunit: nilg: the only falsey value in Scheme is #f, if that helps.
2015-10-31T00:03:09Z davexunit: '() is the empty list.  using it as a null value doesn't make much sense unless you are talking about lists.
2015-10-31T00:03:22Z pjb: (null? '()) --> #t
2015-10-31T00:03:41Z davexunit: yes, null? checks for the empty list
2015-10-31T00:03:57Z pjb: So using the empty list for a null value makes much sense.
2015-10-31T00:04:05Z davexunit: no.
2015-10-31T00:04:08Z davexunit: using #f does.
2015-10-31T00:04:10Z pjb: It does.
2015-10-31T00:04:30Z pjb: Otherwise of course you can (define (null-value? x) (member? x '(() #f nil)))
2015-10-31T00:04:32Z davexunit: '() isn't falsey, so you can't use it as a falsey value with logical 'and' or 'or'
2015-10-31T00:04:42Z pjb: Nope.
2015-10-31T00:04:44Z davexunit: or 'if'
2015-10-31T00:05:01Z pjb: You would have to use (not (null? '()))
2015-10-31T00:05:03Z cojy: nilg: the preferred way is #f
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2015-10-31T00:13:29Z nilg: thank you guys
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