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2015-09-02T03:39:49Z catern: hi #scheme
2015-09-02T03:40:40Z catern: I am doing a workshop on Emacs for freshlings at my university, and so I need to introduce lisp syntax in a cursory way to people who probably don't care about it at all, and possibly have never programmed before
2015-09-02T03:41:03Z catern: I ask here because I assume you guys are good at pedagogy :)
2015-09-02T03:41:24Z catern: my specific question is: how to treat symbols?
2015-09-02T03:42:00Z catern: right now in the short template init.el (which doubles as heavily-commented example code) I have this comment:
2015-09-02T03:42:08Z catern: http://ix.io/kA4
2015-09-02T03:42:47Z catern: probably not the best way to present it... any better ideas? it has to be quick...
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2015-09-02T04:17:38Z kephra: catern, a symbol is a kind of a unique string - the tick before the symbol tells the computer that equal mens the same
2015-09-02T04:18:18Z kephra: s/that equ.*/that equal symbols mean the same thing/
2015-09-02T04:21:42Z kephra: catern, one might need to explain types a bit, e.g. with "+", '+ and + being string, symbol and lambda
2015-09-02T04:22:37Z kephra: the first is a string, thats something a user might type in, or that printed on screen or paper
2015-09-02T04:23:33Z kephra: the 2nd is a symbol - a name for the addition operation
2015-09-02T04:23:45Z kephra: the last is a lambda - the addition operation
2015-09-02T04:26:45Z kephra: unfortunate Lisp languages are easy taught with math problems - and thats often a way to bore freshmen to death
2015-09-02T04:28:27Z kephra: catern, Lisp is great as a 2nd computer language - its an eye opener for those who started coding by cut'n'paste - but its hard as a first language, imho
2015-09-02T04:29:26Z catern: hmm, that seems to be a bit too much detail..
2015-09-02T04:30:55Z kephra: what about shorter: a symbol is a unique string, starting with ' to be used as a name
2015-09-02T04:31:19Z kephra: and you can explain what 'a name' means, if a student asks
2015-09-02T04:32:49Z kephra: you teach emacs lisp: so its possible to avoid math problems ... and you can assume that Lisp is at least 2nd language
2015-09-02T04:33:25Z kephra hopes you do not teach EMACS to liberal arts freshmen
2015-09-02T04:36:02Z kephra: *ot* I tried EMACS as an editor several times - failed each time, because I did not use it as an editor, but started to write games in EMACS
2015-09-02T04:36:37Z kephra: still a VI user - VI not VIM - because I need a stupid editor to avoid hacking on the editor itself
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2015-09-02T05:40:04Z nanoz: hi
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2015-09-02T05:56:23Z wasamasa: kephra: I've done a talk about making games in emacs even
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2015-09-02T06:42:16Z kephra: so you are poisoned by same venom, wasamasa ;-)
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2015-09-02T06:48:00Z nanoz: hello
2015-09-02T06:48:30Z nanoz: is cons (1 2) where 1 and 2 are address or value ?
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2015-09-02T07:25:45Z pierpa: nanoz: in scheme there are values, and in scheme there are no addresses. so you have your answer
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2015-09-02T08:00:12Z wasamasa: kephra: very much so
2015-09-02T08:00:31Z wasamasa: kephra: I've reimplemented a worse version of react.js and my own scheduler while I was at it
2015-09-02T08:03:17Z wasamasa: kephra: looking forward to redo it properly in scheme
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2015-09-02T12:00:53Z nanoz: (cons 3 cons 1 2) gives error is brackets are mandatory ? always
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2015-09-02T12:02:40Z dpk: needs to be (cons 3 (cons 1 2)), yes
2015-09-02T12:02:56Z dpk: assuming you want the improper list '(3 1 . 2)
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2015-09-02T12:46:15Z nanoz: (cons 3 (cons 1 2))
2015-09-02T12:46:15Z nanoz: ; ->  (3 1 . 2) what is this '.' (period) means
2015-09-02T12:49:45Z taylanub: nanoz: a cons cell is written (x . y).  a structure like (x . (y . z)) can be abbreviated to (x y . z).
2015-09-02T12:50:19Z taylanub: if the last element is the empty list, (), then it can be abbreviated even further.  (x . ()) becomes (x), and (x . (y . ())) becomes (x y)
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2015-09-02T14:03:02Z kephra: wasamasa, my scheme does a pretty good job of hiding JS callback hell
2015-09-02T14:03:49Z kephra: and I have a real MVC GUI, with the restriction that model must be relational
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2015-09-02T14:04:47Z kephra: (set! line.amount (* line.quantity line.price)) ; and do not worry about the row - or that this needs to be displayed somewhere
2015-09-02T14:07:17Z kephra: nanoz, (cons 'foo 'bar) -> '(foo . bar)
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2015-09-02T14:08:45Z kephra: nanoz, a LIST ('a 1 2 'b 3) is normally implemeted as chain of links
2015-09-02T14:09:10Z kephra: each cons cell has a car (1st member), and a cdr (2nd member)
2015-09-02T14:09:44Z kephra: a proper list is a chain of cons cells, where the cdr is a proper list
2015-09-02T14:10:55Z kephra: so ('a 1 2 'b 3) is identical to (cons 'a (cons 1 (cons 2 (cons 'b (cons 3 '())))))
2015-09-02T14:11:35Z kephra: while ('a 1 . 2) would be (cons 'a (cons 1 2))
2015-09-02T14:12:05Z kephra: beware of the closing (cons lastelement '()) of a proper list
2015-09-02T14:13:02Z kephra: now Scheme and Lisp are a bit different when it comes to car and cdr out of nil - but lets stop here
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2015-09-02T14:29:17Z nanoz: (cons (cons 0 1) (cons 1 2))
2015-09-02T14:29:20Z nanoz: ((0 . 1) 2 . 3)
2015-09-02T14:29:32Z nanoz: why
2015-09-02T14:29:49Z lolcow:  the same reason
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2015-09-02T18:47:41Z nanoz: is list and cons are same ?
2015-09-02T18:47:52Z nanoz: since cons are list too
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2015-09-02T18:49:11Z f-a: nanoz: yes and no
2015-09-02T18:49:27Z mario-goulart: nanoz: you mean lists and pairs?
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2015-09-02T18:50:09Z mario-goulart: lists are pairs, but pairs may not be lists (at least not proper lists).
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2015-09-02T18:50:47Z nanoz: omg!
2015-09-02T18:50:55Z nanoz: i'm confused :P
2015-09-02T18:52:03Z mario-goulart: Yeah, it's a bit confusing. :-)
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2015-09-02T18:52:43Z jcowan: What is truly confusing is that everything is either a proper list, a circular list, or an improper list.
2015-09-02T18:53:17Z vraid: mario-goulart: all lists are pairs, except the empty list which is not
2015-09-02T18:53:41Z mario-goulart: vraid: yes, I know.
2015-09-02T18:55:00Z mario-goulart: jcowan: do you know why improper lists exist?  I think John McCarthy's LISP didn't support improper lists.
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2015-09-02T18:55:22Z mario-goulart: When were they introduced (and to what idiom)?
2015-09-02T18:55:41Z jcowan: I think by pure accident, as a result of implementing lists as pairs.
2015-09-02T18:55:52Z jcowan: Of course Scheme now uses them for syntax, though most Lisps don't.
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2015-09-02T18:56:10Z jcowan: But the thing is that a non-list can be seen as an improper list of length 0.
2015-09-02T18:57:15Z jcowan: given (a b . c), an improper list of length 2, cdring it will give (a . b), an IL of length 1, and cdring again will give b, so it must be an IL of length 0
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2015-09-02T19:16:08Z mario-goulart: I'm often amazed at how the explanation for some things in Scheme is something like "it just happended".  I always expect a very long rationale supported by a bunch of papers. :-)
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2015-09-02T19:18:12Z mario-goulart: Improper lists always sounded to me like a can of worms that hardly justify its existence.
2015-09-02T19:19:05Z LeoNerd: They're useful in assoc-lists
2015-09-02T19:19:14Z LeoNerd: A (proper) list of simple pairs
2015-09-02T19:20:16Z kephra: LeoNerd, even more important, if an alist might either have lists or pairs - so the assoc value is either a list or an atom
2015-09-02T19:20:41Z mario-goulart: They are certainly handy in some situations, but they are like corner cases that one has to be always aware of.
2015-09-02T19:21:36Z kephra: i'm using this for the name attribute, that might be either (name "Id") or (name (de "Betrag") (en "Amount"))
2015-09-02T19:25:37Z kephra: *bad example* ... because I'm currently not using cdr - but cadr
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2015-09-02T19:30:42Z mario-goulart: jcowan: thanks for the explanation.
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2015-09-02T19:32:14Z jcowan: Pairs (2-tuples) are certainly useful; whether visibly constructing lists out of them was a good idea or not is a question.  Python doesn't, neither does Clojure.  But Scheme and CL are stuck with them now.
2015-09-02T19:33:25Z taylanub: LeoNerd: kephra: you could just define alists to be ((k v) (k2 v2) ...), and e.g. ((k v x) (k2 v2)) would not be a valid alist.  this might have been a better alist format but that ship's sailed
2015-09-02T19:34:34Z taylanub: would have been better because ((k . (vx vy vz)) (k2 . v2)) wouldn't get printed as ((k vx vy vz) (k2 . v2)) by default
2015-09-02T19:36:03Z jcowan: I have used it in the past, you just have to call cdr on the value before using it.
2015-09-02T19:37:03Z taylanub: well yeah, I also use it in my bytestructures for instance, but it's atypical
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2015-09-02T19:38:48Z taylanub: jcowan: BTW bytestructures just received huge updates, in case you're interested: https://github.com/taylanub/scheme-bytestructures
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2015-09-02T19:40:49Z taylanub: I'm thinking that something of this magnitude shouldn't be standardized though.  given that it can be implemented as a library anyway...
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2015-09-02T19:49:33Z jcowan: What we are doing now is precisely standardizing libraries.
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2015-09-02T19:49:55Z jcowan: Are there docs other than the README?
2015-09-02T19:50:30Z taylanub: nope
2015-09-02T19:50:54Z jcowan: Okay, printed, will read
2015-09-02T19:51:31Z jcowan: There is nothing in SRFI-1 that can't be implemented in plain Scheme, it *is* implemented in plain Scheme, but it's useful to have pre-agreed meanings for the names as well as pre-available implementations of them.
2015-09-02T19:51:59Z taylanub: hmm, yes
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2015-09-02T19:54:21Z taylanub: still, I think it's more urgent to standardize things that can't be implemented as a library.  like SRFI-72 and SRFI-99
2015-09-02T19:56:03Z taylanub: if an SRFI is good and can be implemented as a library, it will get implemented as a library and people will use it; a Scheme implementation needn't do anything further.  but things like 72 and 99 need action from the Scheme implementation authors.
2015-09-02T19:57:10Z jcowan: I agree.  But Scheme standardization is difficult enough that "confidence-building measures", as they are called in peace talks, are in order.  Everyone, I hope, can agree that SRFI 1 is pretty standard.  SRFI 72 is far more controversial.
2015-09-02T19:58:47Z nanoz: is it possible to have empty cons like empty list '()
2015-09-02T19:58:48Z jcowan: Note that SRFI 99 has an implementation over R6RS already, and could probably be implemented over SRFI 9 / R7RS-small with some work (though perhaps not fully interoperably)
2015-09-02T19:58:58Z jcowan: nanoz: No, the empty list is not a cons (a pair)
2015-09-02T19:59:10Z taylanub: nanoz: the empty list is a separate data type.  a cons cell always has exactly two objects in it, a "car" and a "cdr"
2015-09-02T19:59:12Z jcowan: By definition a pair has two elements, a car and a cdr.
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2015-09-02T20:30:53Z jcowan: taylanub: ping
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2015-09-02T20:35:11Z C4_: Hello I have a quick question. I'm a collage student who has a question on a homework it asks if scheme would be used for business applications? Thankyou for your help!
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2015-09-02T20:36:40Z LeoNerd: Can you use a screwdriver for business applications?
2015-09-02T20:37:13Z C4_: Like the mixed drink? either way im not sure
2015-09-02T20:37:46Z mario-goulart: C4_: yes
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2015-09-02T20:39:57Z kephra: C4_, sure e.g. GnuCash is written in Scheme, and my own o3db also
2015-09-02T20:40:51Z wasamasa: C4_: what would make a language unsuitable for that purpose?
2015-09-02T20:41:19Z kephra: e.g. JavaScript is badly suited for business, as it does not provide exact math
2015-09-02T20:42:53Z jcowan: Few languages provide exact non-integers, but they get used anyway.
2015-09-02T20:43:53Z mario-goulart: But beware of larceny in business apps.
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2015-09-02T20:46:58Z kephra: one of my first coding jobs was for a liquor import/export company - now imagine: 24 bottles cost 19.00 - whats the price per bottle
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2015-09-02T20:55:17Z taylanub: jcowan: pong
2015-09-02T20:55:54Z jcowan: I wanted to talk to you about the possibility of integrating SRFI 123 with (chibi generic), which I intend to propose as a SRFI.
2015-09-02T20:56:13Z jcowan: Both are small, and implementing 123 with generic functions would make a lot of sense.
2015-09-02T20:56:16Z taylanub looks at (chibi generic)
2015-09-02T20:57:27Z taylanub: hm, pretty typical generics functionality it seems?
2015-09-02T20:57:41Z taylanub: dynamic dispatch on the type of each argument?
2015-09-02T20:57:42Z jcowan: Yes, but very portable because it uses predicates rather than types
2015-09-02T20:57:51Z taylanub: aha
2015-09-02T20:58:30Z taylanub: list of predicates applied successively?
2015-09-02T20:58:33Z jcowan: Yes
2015-09-02T20:58:59Z jcowan: But that doesn't matter for correctness as long as they are mutually exclusive.  If you want to handle types and subtypes, say from SRFI 99, you need to make sure the subtype is handled first.
2015-09-02T20:59:28Z taylanub: that's pretty much what SRFI-123's reference implementation does, really
2015-09-02T20:59:38Z taylanub: the list of predicates I mean
2015-09-02T20:59:59Z taylanub: indeed, that same limitation would apply to SRFI-123.  hm, had never even thought of that.
2015-09-02T21:00:23Z taylanub: maybe I should specify SRFI-123's behavior on record type hierarchies
2015-09-02T21:02:03Z taylanub: hm, guess it will already work because I 'push!' to the type-list on record type generation.  well, except I don't wrap SRFI-99's define-record-type.
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2015-09-02T21:03:04Z taylanub: ugh, I totally ended up ignoring anything related to SRFI-99.  (if you asked me, it's obvious how the behavior should be, but that's no way to write specifications :P)
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2015-09-02T21:05:28Z taylanub: well, "For records, symbols that correspond with the record type's field names are allowed."  My reference implementation ignores SRFI-99, but the spec already covers it I guess.
2015-09-02T21:05:33Z jcowan: I just sent an email to the list about this
2015-09-02T21:05:35Z jcowan: and other things
2015-09-02T21:05:47Z jcowan: but I wanted to talk about generic functions here
2015-09-02T21:07:06Z jcowan: We could rename the SRFI to "Generic functions, accessors, and modifiers" and I'd introduce a modified version of (chibi generic).  What do you think about doing that?
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2015-09-02T21:09:45Z jcowan: dpk: Scheme is monomorphic because it is 40 years old, it inherits monomorphism from Lisp 1.5, which is 60 years old, and Scheme has never had consensus to add a specific system of polymorphism.
2015-09-02T21:10:03Z jcowan: You can build polymorphism on top of a monomorphic system, but only with pain the other way about.
2015-09-02T21:10:11Z jcowan: (Python bound methods can do it, sort of.)
2015-09-02T21:10:29Z taylanub: I'd really like to keep SRFI-123 concentrated to this one thing to be honest.  it already got much more complicated than I'd imagined when I started it, so I want to keep adventures to a minimum.
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2015-09-02T21:11:27Z jcowan: Fair enough.  When I come to write it up I'll point out that SRFI 123 can be readily implemented on top of it, and maybe provide an alternative implementation.
2015-09-02T21:11:53Z ecraven: hm.. isn't purely predicate-based type dispatch potentially slow?
2015-09-02T21:11:59Z ecraven: or do I misunderstand how (chibi generic) works?
2015-09-02T21:12:16Z jcowan: Sure it's potentially slow; it can be optimized by an implementation that knows what it's doing.
2015-09-02T21:12:16Z taylanub: jcowan: sounds good.
2015-09-02T21:12:27Z jcowan: (Fixnum addition is slow if you do it with a serial bit adder.)
2015-09-02T21:13:02Z jcowan: If it were being deeply wired into Scheme, slowness would be very very bad, although CPython has managed.
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2015-09-02T21:24:10Z taylanub: jcowan: thanks for the mail; I'll handle those points tomorrow.  for now, good night.  will finish a mail to the guile-user ML, then hit the sack.
2015-09-02T21:24:41Z taylanub: a mail about naming pattern variables in syntax-rules "<foo>" (with angle brackets) as a convention...  I wonder where else I can post about this endorsement.
2015-09-02T21:24:58Z jcowan: c.l.s
2015-09-02T21:26:05Z taylanub: ah, I never used Usenet.  might want to get into it I guess.
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2015-09-02T21:36:40Z kephra: usenet was fun in the 80s and 90s - but now its basically a brand
2015-09-02T21:37:21Z pierpa: a brand?
2015-09-02T21:38:19Z kephra: only the name left - but the culture of usenet discussion is gone
2015-09-02T21:38:38Z kephra: the brand is now used for video downloads
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2015-09-02T21:48:16Z jcowan: Depends on the group
2015-09-02T21:48:26Z jcowan: c.l.s is still somewhat functional, though nothing like it was -- but what is?
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2015-09-03T02:03:26Z rocx: I know this is probably just a commonly asked question, but what good dialects of Scheme A) compiles and B) into small binaries?
2015-09-03T02:08:35Z jcowan: Few if any
2015-09-03T02:08:50Z jcowan: most people who are concerned about space use small interpreters
2015-09-03T02:09:10Z jcowan: There are a few compilers for use on very very small embedded systems with specialized chips
2015-09-03T02:09:19Z rocx: I did try Chicken and the lowest I could get a hello world binary was ~26K using the musl libc.
2015-09-03T02:09:29Z rocx: Was also just about to ask if it'd just be better to go with a light interpreter.
2015-09-03T02:09:30Z davexunit: that's quite small
2015-09-03T02:09:54Z jcowan: You should also try Gambit and Bigloo
2015-09-03T02:11:32Z dpk: dpk@Clavius ~> echo 'int main () { printf("hello world\n"); }' | cc -xc -
2015-09-03T02:11:33Z dpk: dpk@Clavius ~> ls -la a.out
2015-09-03T02:11:34Z dpk: -rwxr-xr-x  1 dpk  staff  8432  3 Sep 04:11 a.out
2015-09-03T02:11:46Z dpk: even 8kb is surprisingly big :-/
2015-09-03T02:12:27Z jcowan: The fastest small interpreter is probably Chibi
2015-09-03T02:12:28Z rocx: dpk: Managed 6K with the musl libc.
2015-09-03T02:12:52Z jcowan: Stalin generates insanely fast code, but not necessarily small, and takes forever to compile substantial programs
2015-09-03T02:13:25Z jcowan: urscheme and owl lisp both compile to assembler, but have substantial restrictions (and urscheme is broken, the last I tried it)
2015-09-03T02:13:41Z jcowan: s/fastest/fastest and most complete
2015-09-03T02:13:58Z rocx: Guess it's not any different to just use an interpreter for Lisp than how Ruby, Perl, and Python work.
2015-09-03T02:18:16Z rocx: Maybe this is also going to sound like a stupid question, but if I go the interpreter route, how would a Scheme program be portable? Just provide the source and tell a user to have fun?
2015-09-03T02:20:59Z jcowan: Typically portability is achieved in Schemeland by porting the interpreter
2015-09-03T02:21:06Z jcowan: though things are improving in that respect
2015-09-03T02:21:48Z rocx: Tch. Not like being able to put a shebang in a program and distribute it for people to make use of. I see how it is.
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2015-09-03T02:23:46Z jcowan: There are Scheme standards, but historically they have been too cramped and don't cover enough, and there has never been a dominant Scheme implementation comparable to Perl 5 or CPython or GHC
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2015-09-03T06:42:07Z ecraven: rocx: try creating a standalone executable with SBCL :)
2015-09-03T06:42:12Z wasamasa: lol
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2015-09-03T06:43:04Z wasamasa: making scheme portable sounds like an exercise in masochism
2015-09-03T06:44:16Z wasamasa: anyway, plenty of implementations compiling to binaries, including chicken, gambit and whatever became of ikarus
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2015-09-03T07:47:26Z rx80: a scheme gcc backend would be awesome though
2015-09-03T07:49:43Z kephra: wasamasa, its the same " exercise in masochism " that you have when porting apps from one forth to an other, or when porting from one browser JS to an other browser
2015-09-03T07:49:53Z kephra: the JS name for this is writing shims
2015-09-03T07:50:22Z wasamasa: kephra: you must be experienced in this
2015-09-03T07:50:25Z kephra: Scheme has a big slib of shims - but this is missing modern requirements like socket io, web client/server, ...
2015-09-03T07:50:44Z kephra: wasamasa, sometimes you port both language and application
2015-09-03T07:51:00Z kephra: e.g. the craziest Forth port I did was Cubase C64 to Atari
2015-09-03T07:51:15Z ecraven: kephra: doesn't almost every implementation have a web server and client? just not compatible ones
2015-09-03T07:51:52Z kephra: ecraven, modern apps often require sockets, web services and the like - unfortunate slib does not cover this
2015-09-03T07:52:27Z kephra: each Scheme has its own way - so one would have to abstract over them
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2015-09-03T07:54:17Z kephra owned one of the first Atari's - one with a boot loader for CP/M 68k - shipped without TOS and GEM when I got it
2015-09-03T07:55:06Z kephra: well - we got TOS/GEM ROMs every 2nd week - but we mostly ignored them - just copied the look and feel of GEM for our VolX4th
2015-09-03T07:56:07Z kephra: the result was: Cubase was running under VolX4th - a preemtive multi tasking forth, optimized for latency
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2015-09-03T07:59:32Z kephra: an odd design decision was just to double everything: the C64 version had 8bit chars, 16 bit integers and pointers ... the Atari version had 16 bit glyphs, and 32bit integers and pointers
2015-09-03T08:06:18Z ecraven: hehe, I just did some very BASIC programming on the C64, and copied some assembler from magazines, I think
2015-09-03T08:06:29Z ecraven: would have been nice if I'd learned forth back then
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2015-09-03T08:07:28Z kephra: forth was most likely the most productive environment for computers with 16bit addressing
2015-09-03T08:07:30Z wasamasa: funny how that died down
2015-09-03T08:07:59Z kephra: forth did not survive the 16bit -> 32bit transition
2015-09-03T08:08:39Z ecraven: factor! :D
2015-09-03T08:09:01Z kephra: the idea of Forth is more then just rpm
2015-09-03T08:09:26Z kephra: factor does not offer to write new bytecode interpreters?
2015-09-03T08:10:49Z kephra: a forth word contains: nfa = name field area, lfa = link field area to next word in dictionary, cfa = pointer to the bytecode interpreter for this word, pfa = parameters for the cfa
2015-09-03T08:12:08Z kephra: now most forth words will have same cfa, that just walks the pfa and executes the bytecode interpreters of them
2015-09-03T08:12:39Z kephra: some words, e.g. variables or constants or objects will have different cfa
2015-09-03T08:15:50Z ecraven: I've played around with forth a few times, but it seems a bit volatile, due to the almost arbitrary stack effects any word could have
2015-09-03T08:16:01Z ecraven: it seems *very* easy to make a hard-to-find mistake
2015-09-03T08:16:30Z kephra: also, under Linux a real Forth system would require a.out - its not possible to implement a Forth in ELF - sorry folks
2015-09-03T08:16:45Z ecraven: kephra: why not? (just out of interest)
2015-09-03T08:17:31Z kephra: a Forth program is a mix of executeable asm, and data
2015-09-03T08:17:56Z kephra: you save the running programming (zero to break) into an a.out - and execute it again
2015-09-03T08:18:14Z kephra: ELF does not support a flat mixed memory for everything
2015-09-03T08:18:26Z kephra: and ELF does not like zero page access
2015-09-03T08:19:11Z ecraven: couldn't you have a small loader in the elf that changed all pages to rwx?
2015-09-03T08:21:45Z kephra: most lisp/scheme/smalltalk systems have a binary to contain the bytecode interpreter and a bytecode image to be generated on snapshot
2015-09-03T08:22:38Z kephra: in Forth both is mixed up in one image (bootstrapped by a metacompiler)
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2015-09-03T08:23:47Z ecraven: but couldn't you generate an elf that contained a loader on snapshotting?
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2015-09-04T20:29:08Z rudybot: leppie: error: deploy-yourself-on-twitter: undefined; <NEWLINE>  cannot reference an identifier before its definition <NEWLINE>   in module: 'program
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2015-09-04T22:20:03Z leppie: dang.... I did
2015-09-04T22:20:29Z leppie: (begin #e1e2000000000 (void)) ; that did it
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2015-09-05T00:41:51Z lperkins2: So, is there some standard way to dynamically define syntax?
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2015-09-05T01:53:45Z pjb: lperkins2: The first sentence of the r5rs section on "macros", ie. 5.3 Syntax definitions, says: "Syntax definitions are valid only at the top level of a <program>."  Furthermore, 6.5 Eval says: "Implementations may extend `eval' to allow non-expression programs (definitions) as the first argument and to allow other values as environments, …" and "optional procedure: interaction-environment".
2015-09-05T01:54:29Z pjb: lperkins2: this all means that there is no STANDARD way to do it, but an implementation MIGHT provide the tools to do thru r5rs.
2015-09-05T01:55:30Z pjb: lperkins2: on the other hand in common lisp, it would be perfectly conforming to do (eval `(defmacro ,…)).
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2015-09-05T02:29:28Z lperkins2: Okay, thanks for the information.
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2015-09-05T02:32:01Z lperkins2: That pretty much matches what I expected. Worst case, I suppose you'd have to fall back to generating a source file.
2015-09-05T02:32:33Z lperkins2: With the implementation I'm using, I found a solution without doing that.
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2015-09-05T18:01:54Z lperkins2: So, is there a repository of FOSS r5rs scheme libraries running around some place?
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2015-09-05T18:09:10Z f-a: lperkins2: yes, it's called r6rs :P joking aside, check http://people.csail.mit.edu/jaffer/SLIB and srfi
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2015-09-05T18:09:55Z f-a: and http://snow.iro.umontreal.ca/
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2015-09-05T18:26:24Z lperkins2: Okay, sweet.  For some reason I couldn't find those when looking on google.  Looks to all be pretty low level stuff, which is pretty much what I expected.  We'll see if any of it will run for me.
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2015-09-05T21:16:07Z nmeum: hey, I have a rather stupid question I suppose: How can I convert a number like 2.0 into 2?
2015-09-05T21:17:24Z vraid: nmeum: inexact->exact
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2015-09-05T21:18:27Z nmeum: ah, thank you
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2015-09-05T21:35:19Z taylanub: or just 'exact' in newer versions
2015-09-05T21:35:44Z taylanub: e.g. (exact 2.0).  more accurate name for the function because it also accepts non-inexact arguments: (exact 2) => 2
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2015-09-06T17:38:20Z Tbone139: join #learnprogramming
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2015-09-06T18:08:45Z mumptai: Tbone139, why?
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2015-09-06T18:20:05Z SrPx: Hey guys, I want to know a little bit about the scheme culture
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2015-09-06T18:20:29Z SrPx: I mean, I know a lot about the language, but I don't know how people actually use it. Scheme is very versatile and allows a lot of programming styles.
2015-09-06T18:21:07Z SrPx: I wonder if usual Scheme code is more haskell-like, with ADTs, folds, zips, or more js-like with lots of dictionaries and arrays?
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2015-09-06T18:22:12Z vraid: SrPx: zips aren't needed since scheme allows maps and folds to operate on several lists
2015-09-06T18:22:43Z vraid: but that didn't really answer anything, i guess :)
2015-09-06T18:22:50Z SrPx: it actually answers a lot :(
2015-09-06T18:22:59Z SrPx: I assumed you considered that kind of thing bad, actually
2015-09-06T18:23:18Z vraid: multi-variadic functions?
2015-09-06T18:23:29Z SrPx: more like unjustified functions, but yes
2015-09-06T18:23:49Z vraid: they have their uses
2015-09-06T18:23:54Z SrPx: I mean, what is the corresponding lambda term for a function that receives multiple arguments? Seems like this breaks equational reasoning for no good reason
2015-09-06T18:24:00Z taylanub: SrPx: the community is splintered into groups.  Racket, Guile, Chicken, Gauche, ...  sometimes they interact, but partly they have big differences.  the RnRS standardization process is kinda flaky too nowadays, with the biggest implementations taking it less and less serious, though things might change for the better.
2015-09-06T18:24:03Z SrPx: variadic arguments*
2015-09-06T18:24:27Z SrPx: taylanub: where on that are the λ-calculus people?
2015-09-06T18:24:41Z SrPx: the purists
2015-09-06T18:24:45Z taylanub: what are "lambda calculus people," Alonzo Church? :)
2015-09-06T18:24:54Z taylanub: oh, there are some purists over at Kernel land
2015-09-06T18:24:57Z taylanub: maybe
2015-09-06T18:25:27Z taylanub: but really, most people grow out of purism at one point.
2015-09-06T18:25:28Z SrPx: people who prefer pure functional programming and stuff that have a corresponding λ-calculus term, such as `cons` and `nil`, but definitely not such as the mutable array primitives
2015-09-06T18:25:41Z taylanub: hmm, maybe you want Haskell
2015-09-06T18:25:41Z SrPx: taylanub: why?
2015-09-06T18:25:54Z taylanub: because pragmatism always beats idealism/purism
2015-09-06T18:26:11Z vraid: i think scheme people are generally less hostile to impure functions than haskell people
2015-09-06T18:26:28Z SrPx: I use Haskell but each hour/day I lose with some stupid GHC bug, cabal hell or something like that I slowly realize it is not that practical
2015-09-06T18:26:49Z SrPx: I think that the type system is bloat, I guess
2015-09-06T18:26:52Z taylanub: wow, how can GHC have bugs, isn't it written in Haskell?!
2015-09-06T18:26:58Z taylanub: :P
2015-09-06T18:27:25Z SrPx: taylanub: it is experimental, that specific thing I wouldn't even consider a bug, more like a bad feature that just don't work
2015-09-06T18:27:26Z taylanub: SrPx: Racket folks are kinda purist sometimes, maybe that will interest you
2015-09-06T18:27:32Z SrPx: ImpredicativeTypes, that is
2015-09-06T18:28:00Z SrPx: taylanub: really? I always seen racket as the opposite
2015-09-06T18:29:01Z vraid: it's pretty pragmatic, but there are people working on a static type system, immutable functional data structures etc
2015-09-06T18:29:24Z vraid: but things like the gui toolkit are done in imperative style
2015-09-06T18:30:24Z SrPx: but I don't like any of that... something I think scheme does wrong is not having totality, the fusion laws are really important for functional programming, things like currying, partial application, being able to write "sum . map (* 2) . filter even $ enumFromTo 0 100" and get that compiled to a constant-space loop
2015-09-06T18:30:50Z SrPx: you don't need a type system and kilos of bloat (haskell) for that, scheme could very well do it but doesn't :(
2015-09-06T18:31:03Z taylanub: Scheme isn't nearly that Haskellish
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2015-09-06T18:31:31Z SrPx: how people use scheme, that is... the actual power to do that is just there (the λ-calculus)
2015-09-06T18:31:41Z taylanub: it leads to unreadable code anyway.  code needs to be boring to some degree to not screw you up when you edit it while tired.
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2015-09-06T18:32:16Z taylanub: (lambda (foo) (quxify (frobnicate foo)))  ;simple, explicit
2015-09-06T18:33:05Z taylanub: writing that as "quxify . frobnicate" is a neat trick at most, it doesn't really bring you much utility
2015-09-06T18:33:18Z vraid: taylanub: (compose quixify frobnicate) is pretty clear if you want to reuse it
2015-09-06T18:33:18Z SrPx: (changing rooms, if I disconnect brb)
2015-09-06T18:33:49Z taylanub: vraid: maybe I should feel embarrassed, but I don't even remember right now whether that will call quxify or frobnicate first
2015-09-06T18:34:02Z taylanub: hm, it must be frobnicate, because I know that compose is the opposite of "pipe"
2015-09-06T18:34:59Z taylanub: depending on your code-base and style, it might be fine to use, but I wouldn't shy off of an explicit lambda
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2015-09-06T18:35:31Z taylanub: for when you use lambda really a lot, Gauche style abbreviations are nice: (^x (quxify (frobnicate x)))
2015-09-06T18:35:50Z DerGuteMoritz: I think where the point-free approach starts to cause more harm than good is when using more than one or two different combinators together
2015-09-06T18:36:31Z SrPx: eh I have to go :c
2015-09-06T18:36:32Z vraid: rudybot: ((compose inexact->exact string->number) "2.0")
2015-09-06T18:36:33Z rudybot: vraid: your sandbox is ready
2015-09-06T18:36:33Z rudybot: vraid: ; Value: 2
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2015-09-06T18:49:12Z SrPx: But hey,
2015-09-06T18:49:23Z SrPx: before I go, just a little example of what I meant with that question: http://lpaste.net/140412
2015-09-06T18:49:51Z SrPx: That program *is* scheme. I wish people used that kind of style more when using Scheme.
2015-09-06T18:51:16Z f-a: SrPx: I am a bit puzzled
2015-09-06T18:51:23Z f-a: that long string of lambdas doesn't look ok
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2015-09-06T18:51:50Z f-a: oh, compiled to scheme, I see
2015-09-06T18:52:40Z vraid: both of those are pretty unreadable to me
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2015-09-06T18:53:10Z SrPx: doesn't look that unreadable imo, but it is more about modularity and performance, I think
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2015-09-06T18:53:43Z f-a: vraid: first one is haskell with a mask on
2015-09-06T18:54:05Z SrPx: not really
2015-09-06T18:54:40Z SrPx: it is just scheme, I can give you a definition for do, enum_to, map, etc etc and it will just be "(define main (do '(enum_to ...))) blabla on scheme
2015-09-06T18:55:09Z SrPx: but scheme won't fuse it and will be slow, that's my complaint... that's why I need the lambda calculus under the hoods
2015-09-06T18:56:11Z f-a: you caught me off guard there SrPx , does 'do' perform function composition?
2015-09-06T18:56:42Z SrPx: yes, it is just "foldr comp id" where `comp = (lambda (f) (lambda (g) (lambda (x) (f (g x))))` ...
2015-09-06T18:58:17Z f-a: I thought `do` did iterations
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2015-09-06T19:27:03Z taylanub: Riastradh: the ephemeral hash tables documentation says e.g. "The keys are held weakly, even if some of the data should hold some of the keys strongly."  does this mean that references from *no* data in the hash table count towards *any* of the keys?  e.g. if key y's datum points to key x, does that not count as a strong reference to x?
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2015-09-06T19:40:01Z Riastradh: taylanub: For each key, paths to that key from the associated datum do not count toward the key's liveness.
2015-09-06T19:40:39Z taylanub: Riastradh: ok, that's what I assumed too.  the wording could probably be improved a bit.
2015-09-06T19:41:45Z taylanub: like "The keys are held weakly, even if some of the data should hold their corresponding keys strongly." maybe.
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2015-09-06T19:42:37Z taylanub: it's probably clear to anyone who knows of ephemeral tables, though interestingly enough I couldn't find anything about them in other programming languages :-)
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2015-09-06T19:45:18Z Riastradh: Well, what MIT Scheme calls `ephemeral tables' are usually just called `weak tables' elsewhere, and what MIT Scheme calls `weak tables' are called `weak tables' in systems that haven't had much thought put into them.
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2015-09-06T19:45:29Z Riastradh: See, e.g., Bruno Haible's article on weak data structures in Common Lisp.
2015-09-06T19:46:20Z Riastradh: http://www.haible.de/bruno/papers/cs/weak/WeakDatastructures-writeup.html
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2015-09-06T19:47:19Z Riastradh: What MIT Scheme calls (weak-cons a b) is what Haible calls (cons (make-weak-pointer a) b).  What MIT Scheme calls an ephemeron is what Haible calls a weak :key mapping.
2015-09-06T19:47:55Z taylanub: indeed, I figure non-ephemeral weak tables are usually a bug.  was just reading e.g. Cocoa documentation to see if their NSMapTable class does it right, but the docs don't mention it explicitly...
2015-09-06T19:48:07Z taylanub: Riastradh: I wonder if non-ephemeral weak tables have any use at all?..
2015-09-06T19:48:21Z Riastradh: Non-ephemeral weak tables are cheaper and sometimes sufficient.
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2015-09-06T19:48:27Z taylanub: ah, I see
2015-09-06T19:48:41Z Riastradh: Example: keys are objects you want to hang properties on, data are numbers.
2015-09-06T19:51:38Z taylanub: if the efficiency difference is small, I wonder if it might be redundant to specify non-ephemeral weak tables...
2015-09-06T19:52:36Z Riastradh: Ephemeral tables cost ~2-3 times as much space as weak tables, and cost O(n) time on every garbage collection.
2015-09-06T19:52:40Z taylanub: (I'm pondering on an R6RS-based hashtables API for R7RS-large because defining a third incompatible hash table API a la http://trac.sacrideo.us/wg/wiki/HashTablesCowan seems kind of strange)
2015-09-06T19:52:53Z taylanub: Riastradh: oh, ok
2015-09-06T19:53:17Z Riastradh: I don't remember whether I measured the performance of weak vs ephemeral tables in MIT Scheme.  It is a priori plausible to me that the performance impact is significant.
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2015-09-06T19:54:00Z taylanub: do you have any opinions on HashTablesCowan, or R7RS-large in general?..  some people have a strong dislike of the direction it's taking, and I'm kind of trying to amend things a bit, but I'm a *very* inexperienced Schemer and might just have no idea what I'm doing
2015-09-06T19:54:20Z Riastradh: I haven't looked at it.
2015-09-06T19:58:39Z Riastradh: On cursory glance I see quite a lot of bells and whistles.  Nondeterministic operations are not clearly marked.  Hash tables do require defence: they readily make programs nonreproducible and vulnerable to algorithmic complexity attacks.
2015-09-06T20:01:20Z Riastradh: (This is why, e.g., in the C++ STL, there were program-ordered maps with guaranteed worst-case performance, typically built from balanced trees, long before there were nondeterministically ordered (`unordered') maps with no guarantees about worst-case performance.)
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2015-09-06T20:08:13Z taylanub: hm, that's an interesting point.  sadly it wasn't addressed in R6RS either.  I don't think I know how to add the necessary prose either.
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2015-09-06T20:35:41Z Riastradh: *poof*
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2015-09-07T02:18:20Z 
2015-09-07T02:18:20Z names: ccl-logbot taij33n- pchrist_ fds_ mikeyhc_ Shozan Riastrad1 niklasl2 aap_ githogori zhcy f-a shardz zirman pjb isaac_rks bb010g SrPx vraid leppie ohama oleo_ aretecode cdidd antoszka asumu daviid Tbone139 psy_ tmtwd jxv echo-area ASau turtleman_ lritter NaNDude ArneBab_ jcowan_ jeremyheiler dmiles_afk gnomon wailord nmeum Khisanth DGASAU` yosafbridge synthmeat zacts vikraman c74d clog rudybot haasn acarrico fadein tstc chu tmh_ lloda nisstyre juanfra
2015-09-07T02:18:20Z names: ivan\ xfel twem2 bipt hive-mind caolanm PinealGlandOptic Saeren_ greghendershott Kruppe joast nitrix teiresias gf3 stux|work dualbus mach catern abbe mrowe henrytill b4283 finnrobi_ keemyb cibs fikusz SirDayBat Natch z0d Tenhi defanor yrdz cross wasamasa torpig fizzie dsp_ Kryo duncanm cjh` s1n4 Razz aking dpk eagleflo benaiah drdo micro` ecraven eMBee emma vifino cartwright ELLIOTTCABLE stasku GGMethos pygospa dytrivedi cataska Jasu_M diginet evhan
2015-09-07T02:18:20Z names: klutometis copec disciple mario-goulart bdawn haroldwu jxanthony ft scoofy foof` EnergyCoffee narendraj9 XTL dan64 taylanub mlaine fgudin eli ineiros_ kephra strmpnk low-profile Neet cojy kbtr Guest3844 choas_ lf94 ec\_ harmchop ski kwmiebach DerGuteMoritz aeth samth dsp snits petercommand jyc jrdnull balkamos tessier rx80 ozzloy ggherdov r0kc4t jrslepak tm512 _0x5eb_ zbigniew stamourv carc averell chazu turbofail tristero gabot chishiki C-Keen vishesh
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2015-09-07T05:18:00Z sadasdf: What are those functions called that return true or false?
2015-09-07T05:18:30Z sadasdf: preterites?
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2015-09-07T05:20:13Z mikeyhc: predicates
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2015-09-07T05:20:21Z sadasdf: They end with a ? in Scheme?
2015-09-07T05:20:26Z mikeyhc: yup
2015-09-07T05:20:27Z sadasdf: ah thanks
2015-09-07T05:20:36Z sadasdf: had a brain fart
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2015-09-07T05:21:23Z sadasdf: my next guess was the subjunctive
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2015-09-07T07:42:36Z taylanub: sadasdf: ending their name in ? is just a convention by the way
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2015-09-07T07:43:57Z sadasdf: yeah
2015-09-07T07:43:59Z sadasdf: thanks
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2015-09-07T09:51:12Z kephra: and how are functions called that end in !
2015-09-07T09:51:39Z kephra: ... well, one can call them evil - but thats not what I mean ;-)
2015-09-07T09:53:09Z kephra: btw, Scheme is not consequent in ? and !, else set! would be =! and equal? =?
2015-09-07T09:53:15Z kephra ducks for cover
2015-09-07T09:55:43Z pjb: destructive operators.  Often they're not functions, like set!.
2015-09-07T09:56:38Z taylanub: kephra: the language "Kernel" is so pedantic about it, it really has <? >? <=? >=? =?
2015-09-07T09:56:50Z taylanub: but that's just sillyness...
2015-09-07T09:57:08Z taylanub: I would be fine with e.g. string=? being called string= instead also, but anyhow
2015-09-07T09:59:13Z kephra: on odd recurring is: The result of the XXX expression is unspecified.
2015-09-07T10:00:03Z kephra: its an expression, so it has to return something - but standard did not care about
2015-09-07T10:01:12Z kephra: so should set! return the symbol or the value, or even a boolean telling its success?
2015-09-07T10:01:31Z pjb: undefined in r5rs.
2015-09-07T10:01:33Z dpk: doesn't matter
2015-09-07T10:01:39Z dpk: return whatever you like
2015-09-07T10:01:39Z pjb: in CL it returns the last value assigned.
2015-09-07T10:01:55Z pjb: So you can write (setf a (setf b 42))
2015-09-07T10:02:16Z kephra: thats what my scheme does
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2015-09-07T10:05:47Z fizzie: Chicken (and I think some others) have a special value #<unspecified> that's returned by e.g. set!.
2015-09-07T10:06:16Z fizzie: I think Racket/PLT/MzScheme/etc. call it #<void>.
2015-09-07T10:06:40Z kephra: #<void> was something I wanted to avoid ;-)
2015-09-07T10:07:08Z kephra: whats the difference between void and nil? why did Scheme avoided nil?
2015-09-07T10:07:24Z kephra playing trolls with words
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2015-09-07T10:08:46Z fizzie: Not sure if there's anything returning '() from set!, but it doesn't sound like an entirely crazy notion.
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2015-09-07T10:17:15Z kephra: its perhaps an trap of my own implementation, that a primitive that is returning nothing, means that this primitive stacked a continuation to return a value
2015-09-07T10:17:29Z kephra: e.g. if will stack [if]
2015-09-07T10:18:02Z kephra: if is the syntax, [if] is its functional continuation
2015-09-07T10:19:13Z kephra: so, i did run into the trap of returning nothing when first implementing those unspecified expressions as returning nothing ;-(
2015-09-07T10:20:10Z kephra: this resulted in lots of odd behavior, e.g. if a begin ended in set!
2015-09-07T10:20:32Z kephra: so, I had to return something (meaningful)
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2015-09-07T10:24:16Z kephra: btw - i'll be most likely in Goettingen on 26th of September - Intercontinental Chicken 2015
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2015-09-07T11:30:20Z taylanub: http://taylanub.github.io/doc/r7rs-hashtables.html  FWIW, alternative to http://trac.sacrideo.us/wg/wiki/HashTablesCowan?version=125
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2015-09-07T14:10:15Z sadasdf: taylanub, what's the difference between weak and ephemeral?
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2015-09-07T14:11:46Z taylanub: sadasdf: is the explanation on the page unclear?
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2015-09-07T14:13:55Z sadasdf: I see now
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2015-09-07T18:29:28Z Riastradh: How do you get the message-id out of this newfangled SRFI mail archive?  http://srfi-email.schemers.org/srfi-124/msg/2906321
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2015-09-07T19:10:39Z Riastradh: taylanub: In your SRFI 123 for records, beware that you can no longer reliably change the name of a record field by searching lexically for the use of all accessors and modifiers, as one could without your REF.
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2015-09-07T19:23:09Z taylanub: Riastradh: indeed.  I don't think there's a clean solution sadly.
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2015-09-07T19:27:47Z taylanub: well, allowing one *not* to type out the verbose accessor/modifier names is the whole point, so there's intrinsically no solution to that.  using macros could bring a bit more staticness (generating code where the accessors/mutators are manifest) but that wouldn't help much either in practice
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2015-09-07T19:28:49Z taylanub: (unless you have a really smart Scheme IDE, that is)
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2015-09-07T19:43:36Z davexunit: I think it's important that the full symbols are present.
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2015-09-07T19:44:10Z davexunit: otherwise things devolve into Ruby-like madness where there's so much dynamic definition going on that it's really hard to find the source of any given mehtod.
2015-09-07T19:44:52Z taylanub: I don't think SRFI-123 would lead to that sort of a slippery slope :)
2015-09-07T19:45:47Z taylanub: I just see it as another tool, to be made disciplined use of in suitable code bases...
2015-09-07T19:46:44Z taylanub: (well, the kind of code base you would use it in is likely to be less disciplined overall.  but at least you should be disciplined in determining how much discipline a certain code base requires. :P)
2015-09-07T19:48:47Z taylanub: SRFI-123 aside though, I really need some good feedback on http://taylanub.github.io/doc/r7rs-hashtables.html
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2015-09-07T19:49:54Z taylanub: Riastradh: I'd love to eventually get your feedback on http://taylanub.github.io/doc/r7rs-hashtables.html
2015-09-07T19:50:27Z taylanub: (the mentioned SRFI-125 isn't up yet, but it's the HashTablesCowan specification I linked the other day)
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2015-09-07T22:19:53Z Riastradh: taylanub: I hate (hashtable-update! ht key (lambda (value) gigantic huge horrible long expression that crowds everything out) default).
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2015-09-07T22:22:36Z Riastradh: taylanub: Your specification does not really allow a more efficient implementation of HASHTABLE-UPDATE!.  You need to impose the restriction that the procedure not modify the table.
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2015-09-07T22:24:29Z Riastradh: taylanub: I discourage HASHTABLE-FOR-EACH, HASHTABLE-VALUES, and other such things: when the hash table is unspecified, they cause programs to be nonreproducible.
2015-09-07T22:27:25Z Riastradh: Baking thread-safety into the abstraction strikes me as silly.  Better to make the caller choose what mutexes cover what invariants, which almost always involve more than just individual hash table operations.
2015-09-07T22:27:57Z Riastradh: Does that `thread-safe' operation cover HASHTABLE-UPDATE!, or just the implied HASHTABLE-REF/HASHTABLE-SET! inside?
2015-09-07T22:28:31Z Riastradh: If the former, you can't express it using HASHTABLE-REF/HASHTABLE-SET!, and you need further restrictions on the procedure.
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2015-09-08T03:50:46Z atgnag: Can code written in one scheme implementation generally work in another?
2015-09-08T03:50:55Z atgnag: s/Can/Will/
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2015-09-08T06:07:13Z kephra: generally - yes and no
2015-09-08T06:07:41Z kephra: some code, e.g. Scheme introductions run on a surprisingly wide range of Schemes
2015-09-08T06:09:46Z kephra: but basically Scheme is like FORTH or early Lisp, that there are as many implemenations as users in the long run
2015-09-08T06:11:10Z atgnag: Is this considered a Good Thing?
2015-09-08T06:11:32Z kephra: yes
2015-09-08T06:11:51Z atgnag: How so?
2015-09-08T06:12:05Z kephra: Scheme is very small - a good programmer can write a Scheme implementation alone from scratch
2015-09-08T06:12:35Z kephra: so R4RS is often the choice, if one wants to try on a new concept - and just needs a small language standard
2015-09-08T06:13:20Z kephra: e.g. my o3db is such a Scheme - take a look at the source code of http://o3db.com/proto/veritas.html
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2015-09-08T06:15:06Z atgnag: kephra: Can't open it right now. I have internet that's shitty and slow, and I'm afraid opening that will interrupt the git clone that's in progress.
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2015-09-08T06:15:57Z kephra: atgnag, site is designed to provide subsecond response on a single speed DLS line (768/129kb)
2015-09-08T06:16:54Z atgnag: Don't underestimate how shitty my internet is. ;)
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2015-09-08T06:18:06Z atgnag: It hasn't loaded yet, and the KiB/s on my git clone have dropped. :-D
2015-09-08T06:18:16Z kephra: *ouch*
2015-09-08T06:18:21Z kephra: *ok* bookmark it
2015-09-08T06:18:41Z atgnag: All right.
2015-09-08T06:19:17Z atgnag: Really thogh, it's not usually this slow. You sure it's up?
2015-09-08T06:20:23Z atgnag: Anyways, having 15KiB/s internet is fun…
2015-09-08T06:20:55Z kephra: sounds like sailing offshore with PACTOR
2015-09-08T06:21:09Z kephra: or a shitty cell phone provider
2015-09-08T06:21:27Z atgnag: Nope. It's T-Mobile after using 1GB (or GiB?) of data.
2015-09-08T06:21:57Z kephra: *ah* the pseudo flat rate
2015-09-08T06:22:09Z kephra: so you are now flatline rest of the month
2015-09-08T06:22:12Z atgnag: It's "unlimited" data.
2015-09-08T06:22:18Z atgnag: Yup.
2015-09-08T06:22:35Z atgnag: Well, the new billing cycle starts soon.
2015-09-08T06:22:54Z atgnag: But, this being my only internet, it doesn't go long without being throttled.
2015-09-08T06:23:02Z kephra: well - lets explain, what my Scheme does
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2015-09-08T06:23:12Z atgnag: Okay.
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2015-09-08T06:23:35Z kephra: i wanted to write a real model view controller running within the browser
2015-09-08T06:23:50Z kephra: where model is the database relation
2015-09-08T06:24:21Z kephra: this reduces coding a lot, as databases already know a lot about possible application by their schema
2015-09-08T06:24:24Z atgnag: Do I need to know what a model view controller is?
2015-09-08T06:24:34Z kephra: *oh* yes
2015-09-08T06:25:29Z kephra: MVC means: you have a data model, where views register, and that is changed by controllers - the views will update automatically
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2015-09-08T06:26:00Z kephra: (set! line.amount (* line.quantity line.price))
2015-09-08T06:26:39Z kephra: this line will have the magic side effect in my Scheme, that the line.amount field on browser screen is updated
2015-09-08T06:26:59Z atgnag: Okay.
2015-09-08T06:27:16Z kephra: so its possible to reduce common database applications to
2015-09-08T06:27:26Z kephra: definitions how it should look to the user
2015-09-08T06:27:42Z kephra: minimal business logic to do calculations
2015-09-08T06:28:14Z kephra: the idea is to reduce "do this; if that do following;" with a "I want a ..."
2015-09-08T06:28:33Z atgnag: Yeah, i get it.
2015-09-08T06:29:09Z kephra: I needed a language interpreter running within browser that offered some features
2015-09-08T06:29:32Z kephra: e.g. the interpreter must be able to stop and resume anytime (in the middle of a primitive) - to allow AJAX calls
2015-09-08T06:30:07Z kephra: and instead of handwaving my own complete language, I based it on R4RS Scheme
2015-09-08T06:30:36Z kephra: the bottom is Scheme - the top is my own vision, incompatible to everything in the world
2015-09-08T06:30:49Z kephra: now back to porting
2015-09-08T06:30:59Z kephra: you port Scheme like porting FORTH
2015-09-08T06:31:22Z kephra: e.g. Gimp or GNU-Cash switched their Scheme a few times
2015-09-08T06:32:19Z kephra: the new Scheme might lack a few functions - but thats not more work, than writing a JavaScript shim for a different browser
2015-09-08T06:32:23Z atgnag: GnuCash didn't always use guile?
2015-09-08T06:32:54Z kephra: i think he used his own Scheme on start
2015-09-08T06:33:02Z kephra: ... but might be wrong here
2015-09-08T06:33:13Z kephra: Gimp certainly switched Schemes
2015-09-08T06:34:56Z atgnag: It uses TinyScheme. Seems like it's what you use when 99% of procedures used are defined in linked libraries.
2015-09-08T06:36:19Z kephra: its a cultural divide between Scheme and Common Lisp
2015-09-08T06:36:38Z atgnag: Yeah.
2015-09-08T06:36:56Z kephra: Common Lisp aims on the big portable everything
2015-09-08T06:37:21Z kephra: CL + ASDF + CLC + ... and your Lisp apps like Maxima run same everywhere
2015-09-08T06:37:27Z atgnag: So, how hard is it to implement the whole of Scheme exactly, what's you have the parser?
2015-09-08T06:37:44Z atgnag: *once
2015-09-08T06:38:34Z kephra: if you got the basic right its just plain work to implement syntax and functions one by one
2015-09-08T06:38:56Z kephra: i took about 2 month ~ 100 hours for it
2015-09-08T06:39:20Z kephra: the hard part might be implementing call-with-current-continuation
2015-09-08T06:40:02Z atgnag: Is your MVC and your Scheme implementation seperate, or one and the same?
2015-09-08T06:40:36Z kephra: a senior coder could implement the interpreter, define, lambda, call-cc ... and leave the rest to an summer intern student
2015-09-08T06:41:43Z kephra: current (more or less replaceable) layers are: AJAX, number library, scheme interpreter, GUI
2015-09-08T06:42:06Z kephra: the scheme works also without the GUI on top, and with a different number lib
2015-09-08T06:42:08Z atgnag: Yeah, I'm looking at the source now.
2015-09-08T06:42:34Z atgnag: It's re-usable for other stuff then?
2015-09-08T06:43:17Z atgnag: If so, would you reccomend it?
2015-09-08T06:43:33Z kephra: e.g. http://o3db.com/proto/dpaste.html <- this is a demo without my GUI ... using dpaste as storage for a Scheme scribble
2015-09-08T06:45:35Z kephra: atgnag, the question is what other stuff would need a Scheme in browser?
2015-09-08T06:45:56Z kephra: where is equivalence of code and data more important then speed?
2015-09-08T06:46:09Z atgnag: Neat.
2015-09-08T06:46:45Z atgnag: Well, it didn't seem that slow.
2015-09-08T06:46:51Z kephra: my implementation is pretty slow in most benchmarks ... but e.g. eval is faster then Clojure
2015-09-08T06:47:17Z kephra: its optimized for latency - not for throughput
2015-09-08T06:47:31Z atgnag: Well, yeah, but that probably depends more on the javascript implementation.
2015-09-08T06:47:32Z kephra: run any bigger problem, and you realize how slow it is
2015-09-08T06:48:11Z atgnag: Well, I admit (expt 2 4096) runs faster on guile.
2015-09-08T06:49:43Z atgnag: That's how many combinations can be made with a 4096 bit key, but I bet you already knew that.
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2015-09-08T06:54:22Z atgnag: Is R4RS easier to implement than R5RS, R6RS, R7RS, etc?
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2015-09-08T06:57:50Z kephra: yes, because its smaller, because hygenic macros are an extension defined in an appendix and not a requirement
2015-09-08T06:58:09Z kephra: and, because R4RS is the only version that comes with a regression test
2015-09-08T06:59:12Z kephra: so my Scheme implements stupid Lisp like quasiquote macros
2015-09-08T07:05:44Z kephra: atgnag, btw - the main features of my prototype are: the UI is multilingual, and its designed for shitty lines, as you could run everything from a file: url - and only database queries are send over internet as JSON/POST
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2015-09-08T07:06:12Z kephra: i have 2nd and 3rd world in mind when designing
2015-09-08T07:07:13Z atgnag: Nice.
2015-09-08T07:07:40Z kephra: my slowest internet line as a provider was 700 bits/second
2015-09-08T07:07:53Z atgnag: Holy shit…
2015-09-08T07:08:06Z kephra: we did run nic.na on it
2015-09-08T07:09:02Z atgnag: That's 87.5B/s minus overhead.
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2015-09-08T07:09:16Z atgnag: That must have been hard to deal with.
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2015-09-08T07:14:24Z kephra: it was better then nothing - ok to exchange mails, and run a nic - the DNS itself was hosted safe from south african paratroopers in Germany ;-)
2015-09-08T07:14:45Z kephra: the NIC software was a copy of RIPE
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2015-09-08T07:19:23Z kephra: it later became much easier, when NIC moved into central hospital in winthoek, got a universal power supply and a land line
2015-09-08T07:19:41Z atgnag: Nice.
2015-09-08T07:19:45Z kephra: its still hosted there in the basement
2015-09-08T07:19:56Z atgnag: Neat.
2015-09-08T07:20:12Z atgnag: Oh, Guile… why do you have to compile so slowly!
2015-09-08T07:20:17Z atgnag shakes monitor
2015-09-08T07:20:35Z kephra: so, you need to bomb a hospital, if you want to disable nambian domain registration
2015-09-08T07:21:01Z atgnag: Nambian? What country is that?
2015-09-08T07:21:09Z atgnag: I don't even know what that adjective is for.
2015-09-08T07:21:32Z kephra: Namibia - former south west Africa
2015-09-08T07:21:42Z atgnag: Ah.
2015-09-08T07:21:42Z atgnag: Do you live there?
2015-09-08T07:21:53Z kephra: had been there a several time
2015-09-08T07:22:00Z atgnag: Interesting.
2015-09-08T07:22:07Z atgnag: What did you do there?
2015-09-08T07:22:10Z kephra: currently live in Germany again - for more then 15 years
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2015-09-08T07:30:29Z kephra: atgnag, where do you live?
2015-09-08T07:31:40Z atgnag: The US.
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2015-09-08T14:38:32Z kephra: naming is often the most difficult question - my new Chicken host is called "kuku" ... chicken in kiswahili
2015-09-08T14:42:13Z ecraven: henderl :) chicken in austrian
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2015-09-08T14:58:13Z fds: Incidentally, "kuku" is also "omelette" in Persian.
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2015-09-08T16:18:26Z taylanub: be careful though, it's (somewhat rarely used) slang for female genitalia in Turkish
2015-09-08T16:19:17Z LeoNerd: Eh..
2015-09-08T16:19:30Z LeoNerd: If you had to worry about *every* slang word in every possible language on Earth you'd never name anything
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2015-09-08T16:28:32Z wasamasa: thankfully there's a website for that
2015-09-08T16:28:37Z taylanub: however, complicated utterances alleviating possible complications exist
2015-09-08T16:28:44Z taylanub: if you get what I mean
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2015-09-08T16:29:08Z taylanub: (that sentence was freaking hard to construct, and I bet "exist" sounds sufficiently similar to some slang word after all.)
2015-09-08T16:29:28Z taylanub: back to doing productive things :P
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2015-09-08T23:13:12Z atgnag: wasamasa: I tested a lot of stuff on that site. It's not very good.
2015-09-08T23:13:33Z atgnag: Nevermind, I'm thinking of something different.
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2015-09-08T23:46:13Z atgnag: Is there a semi-portable way to deal with large integers?
2015-09-08T23:47:11Z dpk: how large?
2015-09-08T23:47:20Z dpk: most production Schemes degrade to bigints
2015-09-08T23:47:39Z dpk: some, like Chicken, require you to enable this behaviour, and there's probably no way to do that portably … yet
2015-09-08T23:47:40Z atgnag: Because, for example, in some implementations (expt 2 4096) results in a large number, but in others it evaluates to +inf.0.
2015-09-08T23:47:49Z atgnag: Okay.
2015-09-08T23:47:57Z dpk: hmm
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2015-09-08T23:48:49Z atgnag: I wonder if there's an SRFI that addresses this.
2015-09-08T23:49:20Z dpk: i think that's more to do with implementation-specific behaviour of the expt function
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2015-09-09T01:23:07Z atgnag: What scheme implementation would you reccomend for creating an imageboard?
2015-09-09T01:23:36Z atgnag: Less specific question: which implementation would work best in place of php?
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2015-09-09T05:41:28Z ecraven: atgnag: most have some sort of web support, look at the major ones, you'll find some you like better than others
2015-09-09T05:46:16Z wasamasa: atgnag: I doubt any is worse at that than PHP :P
2015-09-09T05:47:25Z ecraven: atgnag: racket has a lot of things, chicken too. guile is wide-spread as well
2015-09-09T05:48:11Z ecraven: I'm using MIT/GNU Scheme, works very well too
2015-09-09T05:48:19Z wasamasa: the language they implement has been actually designed, there are nice s-expression equivalents of everything that might result in injection bugs and performance isn't something you get by buying an optimizer from your vendor
2015-09-09T05:48:34Z wasamasa: so by that definition every scheme implementation beats PHP easily
2015-09-09T05:48:39Z wasamasa: heck, pretty much any language does
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2015-09-09T06:16:48Z kephra: atgnag, chicken has a fastcgi egg - so it could be used as a replacement in a nginx/fastcgi/php stack
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2015-09-09T06:18:07Z kephra: ecraven, how do you deploy mit-scheme? my prototype is using mit-scheme as a http server with a lighttpd proxy in front
2015-09-09T06:18:46Z kephra: drawback is that this app is single threaded
2015-09-09T06:20:25Z kephra: atgnag, ignore the PHP bashing - there are 10 types of languages: those that everybody curses like PHP or Java, and those that nobody uses like Scheme or Smalltalk
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2015-09-09T06:21:22Z kephra: atgnag, http://www.paulgraham.com/avg.html <- Lisp might be a secret weapon
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2015-09-09T06:44:00Z wasamasa: I do it the nginx way
2015-09-09T06:44:11Z wasamasa: spawning a spiffy process and reverse-proxying nginx to it
2015-09-09T06:47:02Z kephra: so you also have only one mit-scheme process serving all request?
2015-09-09T06:47:25Z wasamasa: yeah, given how low the traffic is, one process is fine
2015-09-09T06:47:37Z kephra: or do you spawn several schemes on several ports, and proxy round robin
2015-09-09T06:48:23Z wasamasa: no, it's a single process
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2015-09-09T06:48:58Z wasamasa: if I'd ever run something more used, I would look into booting up more of them and falling back to them
2015-09-09T06:49:25Z wasamasa: because that's simpler than writing a webserver doing multiplexing in all possible ways :D
2015-09-09T06:49:25Z kephra: easiest way, considering the low foot print of mit-scheme
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2015-09-09T06:49:53Z wasamasa: anyways, this thing eats way less ressources than the equivalent python/ruby variants
2015-09-09T06:50:35Z kephra: i currently evaluate chicken-fastcgi
2015-09-09T06:50:43Z kephra: because I will need lots of traffic
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2015-09-09T08:07:33Z ecraven: kephra: I use lighttpd with fcgi, and run one mit-scheme process per "application"
2015-09-09T08:08:30Z ecraven: kephra: I've played around a bit, I can do around 1k requests a second easily (including request parameter parsing and shtml->html text generation), so I am not worried yet
2015-09-09T08:08:58Z kephra: i have a database backend - so some queries might take longer
2015-09-09T08:09:06Z ecraven: however things get fast if you compile them, with MIT/GNU Scheme
2015-09-09T08:09:27Z ecraven: well, I spawn a new "thread" for each request, so if that blocks on IO, that's no problem
2015-09-09T08:09:43Z ecraven: MIT/GNU Scheme handles tht fine, only multiple cpu-bound "threads" will hurt each other
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2015-09-09T09:57:23Z kephra: ecraven, do you have an URL to source for mit-scheme as an fastcgi server?
2015-09-09T09:59:03Z ecraven: kephra: no, it's custom code
2015-09-09T09:59:12Z ecraven: wait, it's scgi, not fcgi, sorry
2015-09-09T09:59:19Z ecraven: I can put it on github, if you're interested
2015-09-09T09:59:19Z kephra: *ok*
2015-09-09T09:59:58Z kephra: perhaps later - scgi is much easier to implement
2015-09-09T10:00:10Z ecraven: that's why I chose it :)
2015-09-09T10:00:15Z kephra: ;-)
2015-09-09T10:00:26Z ecraven: is fcgi better
2015-09-09T10:00:29Z ecraven: ?
2015-09-09T10:00:52Z kephra: don't know *blush* just used to that stack ;-)
2015-09-09T10:01:09Z ecraven: as far as I know (which really isn't much), they are about the same
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2015-09-09T23:10:23Z r2q2: :)
2015-09-09T23:10:28Z r2q2: ^_______________________^
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2015-09-09T23:12:17Z r2q2: 4 of my machine learning models verified in the morning in mathematica
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2015-09-09T23:12:35Z r2q2: i know its off topic
2015-09-09T23:12:42Z r2q2: but i am eventually going to port it to something else
2015-09-09T23:12:48Z r2q2: anyways how is everyone else doing
2015-09-09T23:13:08Z r2q2: by my machine learning models I am trying to learn problems in low dimentional topology
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2015-09-09T23:26:38Z pjb: r2q2: you could port it to maxima (written in Common Lisp, free software).
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2015-09-10T02:05:14Z Jaood: why does R7RS has the word "small" append to it and others scheme reports don't?
2015-09-10T02:06:06Z dpk: because there's also going to be an R7RS Large
2015-09-10T02:06:45Z Jaood: dpk: I see, thanks.
2015-09-10T02:06:53Z dpk: the differences are explained well in http://scheme-reports.org/2009/working-group-1-charter.html (Small) and http://scheme-reports.org/2010/working-group-2-charter.html (Large0
2015-09-10T02:06:55Z dpk: )
2015-09-10T02:09:18Z Jaood: cool, was there but didn't notice those referred to r7rs
2015-09-10T02:10:50Z Riastradh: The authors of the charters felt that the RnRS name was getting a little tired.
2015-09-10T02:11:10Z Riastradh: But nobody suggested anything better, so `R7RS' stuck.
2015-09-10T02:12:07Z dpk: eh, RnRS is widely recognized as being the 'version' series of Scheme specifications
2015-09-10T02:12:56Z dpk: sure, the joke in the expansion is a bit tired, but nobody actually types out RevisedRevisedRevisedRevisedRevisedRevisedRevised
2015-09-10T02:15:04Z Riastradh: The structure of the title was originally intended to reflect the `Report on the Algorithmic Language ALGOL'.  That reference is no longer particularly salient.
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2015-09-10T02:16:04Z dpk shrugs
2015-09-10T02:16:13Z dpk: it's a bit of history, i guess
2015-09-10T02:16:29Z Riastradh: In any case, the tiredness of the name was the reason the charters didn't suggest it.
2015-09-10T02:18:42Z dpk: if anyone seriously wanted to jettison it, you could just rename the series to "RnRS", use that name at the top and a subtitle like "The Scheme Language, nth Edition" or whatever. but whatever, someone always wants to argue about what to name the bikeshed
2015-09-10T02:21:48Z Riastradh: If it bothers you so much you can tell the authors of the charters.  Not sure why you're complaining about it here.
2015-09-10T02:22:24Z dpk: i'm not complaining
2015-09-10T02:22:36Z Riastradh: OK, then.
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2015-09-10T04:30:14Z ecraven: a macro-qquestion: what do people use for simple "count from a to b"-style loops (possibly nested, for x from 1 to 10 and y from 2 to 20)? I normally prefer non-macros, but in mathematics-heavy code, this really seems to be a good place to use a macro
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2015-09-10T06:16:36Z taylanub: ecraven: I heard foof-loop is pretty neat for ... looping, in all sorts of ways
2015-09-10T06:17:16Z taylanub: it probably won't unroll a numeric loop with constants though.  if you want that you can roll your own thing I guess.
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2015-09-10T07:15:40Z kephra: ecraven, I prefer to loop over elements instead over indexes - and even more prefer not to loop at all
2015-09-10T07:15:42Z kephra: e.g.
2015-09-10T07:16:23Z kephra: (set! line.amount (* line.quantity line.price)) ; sets the amount at the current cursor of the relation
2015-09-10T07:17:27Z kephra: (foreach 'line (set! line.amount (* line.quantity line.price))) ; loops over the cursor
2015-09-10T07:18:38Z kephra: note, that dotted variables are bound to the relational model, in my MVC gui
2015-09-10T07:23:07Z kephra: btw, I fear there is no standard Scheme construct to react on value change of a bound variable ( set! )
2015-09-10T07:23:40Z kephra: ... one might redefine set! itself
2015-09-10T07:28:37Z kephra: avoid looping is one strong point of R, from language design - unfortunate debugging R is a mess
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2015-09-10T09:11:58Z ecraven: is this (http://mumble.net/~campbell/scheme/foof-loop.txt) the latest version of foof-loop?
2015-09-10T09:12:56Z taylanub: ecraven: don't know, but the one on snow-fort.org should be new
2015-09-10T09:13:56Z ecraven: hehe, I like that quote :)
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2015-09-11T08:54:38Z ecthiender: what is the canonical way of implementing undo/redo feature?
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2015-09-11T08:56:27Z kephra: ecthiender, depends on context - i would say a patchfile, or version control of context is large texts
2015-09-11T08:57:09Z ecthiender: kephra, what's a patchfile? like a diff?
2015-09-11T08:57:27Z kephra: yes
2015-09-11T08:58:02Z ecthiender: then patching the diff to the current state? i am not clear on how to proceed on this..
2015-09-11T08:58:42Z kephra: under unix you have patch and diff commands
2015-09-11T08:58:57Z kephra: diff tells the difference between files, patch applies a diff
2015-09-11T08:59:26Z ecthiender: yes, that i know..but what if i had to implement it in a language which does not have any patch/diff built-in..
2015-09-11T09:01:42Z kephra: then I would start other people's source code, e.g. https://github.com/froydnj/diff/blob/master/diff.lisp
2015-09-11T09:01:59Z kephra: s/start/start with reading/
2015-09-11T09:03:17Z ecthiender: kephra, hmm. thanks
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2015-09-11T18:41:47Z os_: hi, does anybody know a R5RS or later scheme implementation that runs on DOS?
2015-09-11T18:42:02Z gnomon side-eyes os_ 
2015-09-11T18:42:52Z wasamasa: BASIC is an acceptable scheme
2015-09-11T18:43:08Z wasamasa: oh and there's emacs running on DOS
2015-09-11T18:44:10Z os_: link pls
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2015-09-11T18:47:26Z gnomon: os_, please look up Emacs under DJGPP to find Emacs for DOS.
2015-09-11T18:47:49Z os_: i mean for BASIC
2015-09-11T18:48:17Z os_: although i use emacs but i don't know how to activate its scheme
2015-09-11T18:48:42Z os_: i know that it has a special lisp called Emacs lisp
2015-09-11T18:54:24Z wasamasa: yes and that's all you'll get from it unless you're feeling brave enough to implement another language on top of it :D
2015-09-11T18:57:24Z os_: ok...
2015-09-11T18:57:50Z os_: wasamasa: if you have a link for BASIC, pls
2015-09-11T18:58:05Z wasamasa: os_: I wasn't serious
2015-09-11T18:58:16Z os_: ah OK
2015-09-11T18:58:20Z wasamasa: and if you haven't ever heard of that language, then eh
2015-09-11T18:58:26Z wasamasa: maybe not take a look at it
2015-09-11T18:58:32Z wasamasa: used to be pretty popular with beginners
2015-09-11T18:58:44Z wasamasa: you could program a C64 in it
2015-09-11T18:58:55Z gremble: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BASIC - 'Beginners All-purpose Symbolic Instruction Code'
2015-09-11T18:59:14Z leppie: GOTO 120
2015-09-11T18:59:22Z os_: when i was young i have tried some Visual Basic
2015-09-11T18:59:53Z wasamasa: same here
2015-09-11T19:00:07Z os_: believe me, C was easier LOL
2015-09-11T19:00:29Z os_ C was easy for him
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2015-09-11T21:24:25Z taylanub: wasamasa: gradual integration of Scheme in Emacs isn't unrealistic with Guile Emacs
2015-09-11T21:24:57Z taylanub: I mean, you can already use the Elisp API from Scheme, it's just full of traps
2015-09-11T21:25:19Z taylanub: holy crap what's up with Emacs Wiki
2015-09-11T21:25:36Z taylanub: http://www.emacswiki.org/emacs/GuileEmacs  WTF is this new CSS, it's not even April 1st
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2015-09-11T21:36:18Z clique: Hi all... I have a question. I'm trying to evaluate an arithmetic expression in Scheme, but I'm stuck with an error that I'm not able to solve.
2015-09-11T21:36:46Z gremble: Which is?
2015-09-11T21:36:53Z clique: so I'm asking for help, even if is a noob question, but I'm reaaly not able to understand the error I get...
2015-09-11T21:37:20Z gremble: Ideally you should now tell us what the error is
2015-09-11T21:37:48Z clique: this is the code: http://paste.lisp.org/display/155056
2015-09-11T21:38:22Z clique: I've done a simple (define G (ag-noeud '+ (ag-noeud (ag-feuille 3) (ag-feuille 2))))
2015-09-11T21:38:45Z clique: but (evaluationExprArbre G) does not work
2015-09-11T21:39:11Z clique: and I don't know how to solve, so any help is welcome.
2015-09-11T21:41:43Z clique: what I see is: car: contract violation expected: pair? given: "*AG*"
2015-09-11T21:43:21Z clique: Any suggestion?
2015-09-11T21:49:06Z gremble: It looks like you are evalutaing your tree and coming to the string "*AG*" and it doesn't know what to do with it in application.
2015-09-11T21:49:43Z gremble: But I could be wrong in reading this
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2015-09-12T11:55:01Z kandinski: where can I read an implementation of restartable exceptions (if I understand correctly, those that don't rewind the stack, but are handled in the same context where they're raised)
2015-09-12T11:59:02Z ski: <https://www.gnu.org/software/mit-scheme/documentation/mit-scheme-ref/Restarts.html>,<http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/beyond-exception-handling-conditions-and-restarts.html>,<https://www.nhplace.com/kent/Papers/Condition-Handling-2001.html>,<https://mumble.net/~campbell/proposals/restart.text>
2015-09-12T11:59:03Z rudybot: http://teensy.info/CNM7Pm37eC
2015-09-12T11:59:58Z kandinski: ah, Restarts, thanks
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2015-09-12T12:08:09Z kandinski: hi jcowan
2015-09-12T12:10:53Z jcowan: hey ho kandinski
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2015-09-12T14:57:24Z jcowan: I'm trying to figure out why this code returns () instead of a list of 3 procedures:
2015-09-12T14:57:25Z jcowan: (define (create-adders)
2015-09-12T14:57:26Z jcowan:   (let loop ((result '()) (i 1))
2015-09-12T14:57:26Z jcowan:       (if (< i 4)
2015-09-12T14:57:26Z jcowan:         (loop (cons (lambda (n) (+ i n)) result) (+ 1 i)))
2015-09-12T14:57:26Z jcowan:         result))
2015-09-12T14:57:50Z jcowan: I must be missing something, but I can't think what
2015-09-12T14:59:52Z vraid: jcowan: well, for one, result is outside of the if expression
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2015-09-12T15:16:22Z jcowan: vraid:  Thanks.  I was sure I had checked that, but apparently I gorped it up afterwards
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2015-09-12T15:22:18Z vestros: May someone help me with some chapter 1 confusion I'm having in SICP?
2015-09-12T15:22:29Z jcowan: We can try.  What's up?
2015-09-12T15:22:47Z vestros: I'm at the part where the 'golden ratio' has been introduced. I don't understand how it relates to the factorial stuff just above its introduction.
2015-09-12T15:24:01Z vestros: I mean the linear recursive, fibonacci stuff, not factorial stuff (I get them confused).
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2015-09-12T15:26:55Z jcowan: The golden ratio is not important in this context as such
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2015-09-12T15:28:01Z jcowan: The point is that fib(n) grows as \phi ^ n, where \phi is a constant
2015-09-12T15:29:54Z jcowan: It's called the golden ratio because a rectangle where the ratio of the long side to the short side is \phi is esthetically pleasing, we don't know why.
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2015-09-12T15:30:58Z jcowan: vestros:  does that help?
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2015-09-12T15:32:46Z vestros: jcowan: Quite a bit. As a beginner, I assumed it wasn't of paramount importance or anything as well, but wanted to double-check with more experienced people just in case.
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2015-09-12T15:36:59Z jcowan: A simppler way to see the connection is that the limit of the ratios of consecutive Fibonacci numbers approaches \phi.
2015-09-12T15:37:49Z vraid: jcowan: not just fibonacci numbers, but any sequence of positive numbers added together in the same fashion
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2015-09-12T15:38:50Z jcowan: Well, yes, you can start the fibos with 1, 1 or in any other way to get generalized fibos
2015-09-12T15:39:45Z vraid: i guess you could call it fibonacci numbers either way :)
2015-09-12T15:40:42Z vestros: So, 7,8,15,23,... would eventually approach a ratio of \phi?
2015-09-12T15:41:13Z vestros: (for example)
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2015-09-12T15:41:53Z jcowan: I assume so, I haven't tried it myself
2015-09-12T15:42:28Z jcowan: changing the seeds is just an additive change and should fall out when you take ratios
2015-09-12T15:44:31Z vestros: Thanks for the help, jcowan. The whole "aesthetically pleasing" thing seems unbelievable, though. Probably just a silly idea most people blindly believe.
2015-09-12T15:45:21Z Riastradh: rudybot: (define (fib-limit f0 f1) (let ((f0 (exact->inexact f0)) (f1 (exact->inexact f1)) (epsilon 1e-15)) (let loop ((f0 f0) (f1 f1) (p (/ f0 f1))) (let ((f0 f1) (f1 (+ f0 f1))) (let ((q (/ f1 f0))) (if (< (abs (/ (- p q) p)) epsilon) q (loop f0 f1 q)))))))
2015-09-12T15:45:22Z rudybot: Riastradh: your sandbox is ready
2015-09-12T15:45:22Z rudybot: Riastradh: Done.
2015-09-12T15:45:25Z Riastradh: rudybot: (fib-limit 1 1)
2015-09-12T15:45:25Z rudybot: Riastradh: ; Value: 1.6180339887498951
2015-09-12T15:45:42Z Riastradh: rudybot: (/ (+ 1 (sqrt 5)) 2)
2015-09-12T15:45:42Z rudybot: Riastradh: ; Value: 1.618033988749895
2015-09-12T15:45:54Z Riastradh: rudybot: (fib-limit 123 456)
2015-09-12T15:45:54Z rudybot: Riastradh: ; Value: 1.6180339887498945
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2015-09-12T15:48:25Z jcowan: so probably correct to within an ulp.  Thanks, Riastradh.
2015-09-12T15:49:14Z Riastradh: Correct to within 1e-15, which is a little more than an ulp but quicker to write than either 2.220446049250313e-16 or the iteration that computes the smallest x such that 1 + x != 1.
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2015-09-12T15:51:49Z Riastradh: vestros: For another fun exercise: write a procedure to compute the continuants, then convergents, then limit of a continued fraction, and use it to compute phi alternatively as [1; 1, 1, 1, ...].
2015-09-12T15:51:49Z vraid: jcowan: if you start with numbers a and b, the sequence will be a, b, a+b, a+2b, 2a+3b, 3a+5b, 5a+8b, 8a+13b etc.
2015-09-12T15:53:25Z Riastradh: (The `limit' is, as in fib-limit, whatever you get when your current answer-so-far has relative difference from the last answer-so-far that is no more than 1e-15, or 2.220446049250313e-16 if you're a Thom[p]son twin.)
2015-09-12T15:53:35Z vraid: since the multipliers for each part follow a fibonacci pattern from one number in the sequence to the next, the quotients of the numbers will also approach phi
2015-09-12T15:54:01Z jcowan: s/additive/multiplicative
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2015-09-12T15:56:29Z Riastradh: (Continued fractions get a short shrift in at least US education these days, despite their long respectable history and practical utility in numerical computations.)
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2015-09-12T20:22:54Z tj`: hey, how can i get a string from the standard output of a system call? i want to parse it
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2015-09-12T20:37:09Z ecraven: tj`: which Scheme?
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2015-09-12T20:40:14Z atgnag: How do I create a defun macro with define-macro?
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2015-09-12T20:48:11Z tj_: ecraven: sorry, midnight snack : D, i'm using guile and mit, both are good...
2015-09-12T20:55:25Z ecraven: tj_: mit has the following (run-shell-command "/bin/foo -x bar" 'output my-output-port)
2015-09-12T20:55:48Z ecraven: so do something like (with-output-to-string (lambda (out) (run-shell-command "..." 'output out))) or similar
2015-09-12T20:55:56Z ecraven: not sure about guile, but probably similar in some way
2015-09-12T21:01:22Z tj_: ecraven: aham, and my-output-port, the out argument of lambda, i have to define it prior... maybe i can make it an input-output port and parse directly from there
2015-09-12T21:02:47Z ecraven: tj_: (let ((my-output-port (open-output-string))) ... (get-output-string my-output-port))
2015-09-12T21:03:09Z ecraven: you can just parse the result string of (with-output-to-string ...)
2015-09-12T21:03:25Z ecraven: have to go, but look at the reference manual, it should have (at least one) example(s)
2015-09-12T21:03:59Z tj_: ok, thanks man
2015-09-12T21:04:02Z tj_: : D
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2015-09-14T05:46:28Z atgnag: Hmm… I'm having a hard time wrapping my head around the syntax for defining macros.
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2015-09-14T10:33:01Z pjb: atgnag: indeed, it's not simple.
2015-09-14T10:33:30Z pjb: http://docs.racket-lang.org/reference/define.html#%28form._%28%28lib._racket%2Fprivate%2Fbase..rkt%29._define-syntax%29%29
2015-09-14T10:33:31Z rudybot: http://teensy.info/xgRl5YSKc4
2015-09-14T10:34:37Z pjb: atgnag: http://hipster.home.xs4all.nl/lib/scheme/gauche/define-syntax-primer.txt
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2015-09-15T00:04:14Z nilg: Does any know how to call a function with a variable number of arguments with a list containing the arguments instead. I mean for how to call (foo a1 a2 a3), given I have a list (a1 a2 a3)? Thanks
2015-09-15T00:05:27Z dpk: (apply foo (list a1 a2 a3))
2015-09-15T00:05:36Z nilg: thank you!!!!
2015-09-15T00:05:54Z dpk: you're welcome
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2015-09-15T17:34:26Z mdzn: hi!
2015-09-15T17:34:36Z mdzn: im trying to implement a small subset of scheme and i dont understand one thing
2015-09-15T17:34:52Z mdzn: why does (eq? '(1 2) (list 1 2)) eval to false?
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2015-09-15T17:35:07Z mdzn: '(1 2) evals to (1 2) and so does (list 1 2)
2015-09-15T17:35:30Z LeoNerd: Because you are confusing what eq? means
2015-09-15T17:35:56Z mdzn: oh, so it cant be used to compare lists?
2015-09-15T17:36:02Z LeoNerd: eq?  does not simply ask "Hey, so do these two things look like they have the same shape with the same values inside", such as  (list 1 2) as compared (list 1 2); it asks "do these two expressions refer to _the same object_"
2015-09-15T17:36:22Z mdzn: kay, it checks references
2015-09-15T17:36:35Z LeoNerd: It's possible to have two boxes that both contain the same thing, and yet those boxes are not eq?
2015-09-15T17:36:38Z mdzn: but these 2 lists are the same, right?
2015-09-15T17:36:39Z LeoNerd: They are, however, equal?
2015-09-15T17:36:47Z mdzn: yeah, i know what reference is
2015-09-15T17:37:09Z mdzn: i see that (eq (list 1 2) (list 1 2)) => #f aswell
2015-09-15T17:37:36Z mdzn: is there any function that compares by value?
2015-09-15T17:37:56Z LeoNerd: equal?
2015-09-15T17:38:19Z mdzn: wonderful! thanks :)
2015-09-15T17:40:06Z mdzn: and, afair, when i eval a list, cdr is evaluated first, right?
2015-09-15T17:40:55Z mario-goulart: mdzn: in scheme, the order of evaluation of arguments is not specified.
2015-09-15T17:41:12Z oleo: eql
2015-09-15T17:41:38Z mdzn: mario-goulart: but do you know how is it usually implemented?
2015-09-15T17:41:44Z oleo: list is guaranteed of creating new lists....
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2015-09-15T17:42:05Z oleo: two objects in the heap are never eq (different pointers)
2015-09-15T17:42:19Z LeoNerd: The order isn't specified, except that it must be done such that each argument is done "atomically", with respect to the others. I.e. no argument is evaluated partially and then a different one is started.
2015-09-15T17:42:19Z mdzn: oleo: yeah, i understand that
2015-09-15T17:42:29Z mdzn: didnt know that eq? was comparing references though
2015-09-15T17:42:31Z mdzn: that was the problem
2015-09-15T17:42:38Z oleo: ah ok
2015-09-15T17:42:41Z oleo: huups
2015-09-15T17:42:46Z oleo: i thought i was in #lisp
2015-09-15T17:42:46Z oleo: lol
2015-09-15T17:42:56Z oleo: anyway it's the same......
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2015-09-15T21:02:34Z BW^-: what work are you aware of on plugging in Scheme to various smartphone environments like iOS and Android?
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2015-09-15T21:17:08Z eroomde: I'm a mechanical and control engineer looking to better myself and use this powerful computer i have more effectively. To that end i've been going through SICP and have been getting a lot from it. Because of my academic background I have done a lot of matlab programming. I see problems with it but my CS is still not up to understanding why the stuff expressed in this rant is true:
2015-09-15T21:17:11Z eroomde: http://imgur.com/5zE08DX
2015-09-15T21:17:17Z vraid: BW^-: lambdanative, for one
2015-09-15T21:18:31Z eroomde: specifically 'Optimising compilation will never work properly in matlab, for instance, because of one of the mistakes in the language'. I appreciate this might be OT here and the overlap between scheme users and matlab users is small, but given what i've been learning with scheme recently, can anyone help me understand to what the author might be referring?
2015-09-15T21:18:59Z eroomde: i'd just like to actually understand what the author means rather than just accept it because he has a PhD and works at google
2015-09-15T21:19:35Z BW^-: vraid: yeah i know lambdanative - it's only for OpenGL though, so the amount of interfacing to the OS' UI components is zero
2015-09-15T21:19:48Z vraid: ah, didn't know that
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2015-09-15T23:05:40Z kephra: eroomde, i dont know matlab (besides installing it) but some languages are harder or easier to optimize - e.g. one can write an optimizing compiler for Scheme syntax rules, but not for Lisp macros
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2015-09-16T10:22:35Z nalaginrut: http://nalaginrut.com/archives/2015/09/16/actor-model%3A-a-revealed-black-box-in-scheme
2015-09-16T10:22:35Z rudybot: http://teensy.info/KlwSVIVyeV
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2015-09-16T14:43:39Z kephra: do you (prefer to) flatten alists when writing code, and to map them to proper alists later - or write them directly?
2015-09-16T14:44:46Z taylanub: kephra: WDYM flatten?
2015-09-16T14:45:26Z kephra: e.g. (('id . 1001) ('adr "name" "street" "city")) could be written as ('id 1001 'adr '("name" "street" "city"))
2015-09-16T14:46:48Z taylanub: I don't do that.  that's called a property list aka plist by the way, especially if the key values are keyword symbols
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2015-09-16T14:58:14Z jcowan: moin moin
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2015-09-16T15:01:47Z pjb: kephra: you're asking that because you are ignoring all the good and nice functions CL offers to manipulate a-list.
2015-09-16T15:02:38Z pjb: Oh, sorry, this is #scheme.
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2015-09-16T15:18:22Z kephra: pjb, ;-)
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2015-09-18T11:56:07Z xtalmath: can I have different "threads" in scheme programs interrupt one another? or wait for user input, but then have this cancelled?
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2015-09-18T12:25:12Z taylanub: xtalmath: the standards don't have a multithreading API.  there are SRFI-18 and SRFI-19, but best refer to your implementation's documentation.
2015-09-18T12:25:32Z taylanub: apologies, SRFI-21 not 19
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2015-09-18T14:05:52Z tj_: does anyone have any idea how parser-language macros work in mit-scheme
2015-09-18T14:06:17Z tj_: i read that fucking documentation page 10 times allready
2015-09-18T14:06:27Z tj_: and i don't want to resort to haskell yet : ))
2015-09-18T14:08:32Z tj_: it would be so sweet to define a sepBy combinator, i can do without, but it bugs me
2015-09-18T14:08:59Z LeoNerd: What's that do?
2015-09-18T14:09:35Z tj_: a parser expression that has a parser and a sepparator as parameters
2015-09-18T14:10:01Z tj_: and it expands to a parser that can deal with words or stuff like that
2015-09-18T14:10:09Z tj_: stuff sepparated by stuff
2015-09-18T14:12:44Z tj_: for example, in haskell i would do something like sepBy (many (char 'a')) (char ' ') and it would parse "a a a a a a" to a list of a's
2015-09-18T14:13:38Z LeoNerd: That was more my question - what does sepBy do?
2015-09-18T14:15:07Z tj_: hmm, it's a parser component, when applied to a parser buffer with the matching sequence and sepparator, it returns a list of the matched stuff
2015-09-18T14:15:54Z LeoNerd: So, a sort of  string-split ?
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2015-09-18T14:16:24Z tj_: hmm, kinda, but you can do really weird ninja stuff with it
2015-09-18T14:16:38Z tj_: it's more powerful, it's parsing
2015-09-18T14:16:45Z LeoNerd: Right
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2015-09-18T14:18:12Z tj_: sorry for the rage, LeoNerd
2015-09-18T14:18:18Z LeoNerd: ?
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2015-09-18T14:18:58Z tj_: i went nuke, i should be more polite, i guess
2015-09-18T14:19:16Z LeoNerd: I hadn't noticed. Seemed fine to me
2015-09-18T14:19:26Z tj_: : D
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2015-09-18T14:21:06Z tj_: i'm gonna read anything i can find about macros in the documentation and hopefully it's gonna make it clear, anyway, i can type the whole stuff by hand, it doesen't matter
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2015-09-18T14:23:06Z tj_: this is the stuff: https://www.gnu.org/software/mit-scheme/documentation/mit-scheme-ref/Parser_002dlanguage-Macros.html#Parser_002dlanguage-Macros
2015-09-18T14:23:07Z rudybot: http://teensy.info/FDP2asLvyD
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2015-09-18T20:35:38Z please_help: I am looking for scheme implementations that have good C ffi, and a multidimensional array library where it is possible to send that array data to the ffi without having to copy the data (e.g. using a c array as the backing store). Are there any beside guile?
2015-09-18T20:40:11Z jcowan: please_help: I don't know for sure, but I would look at Bigloo, Gambit, and Chicken
2015-09-18T20:41:07Z please_help: Chicken doesn't have it for sure, I couldn't find anything like that for bigloo, I'll look at gambit.
2015-09-18T20:41:10Z jcowan: You should avoid SRFI-25 and make your own implementation of matrices, probably
2015-09-18T20:41:59Z jcowan: Note that Chicken has eggs for BLAS and Atlas-LAPACK, so if those do what you want, consider using them
2015-09-18T20:42:00Z please_help: It looks like the only option beside using guile is to either make a full C-based array library or build upon srfi-4.
2015-09-18T20:44:32Z please_help: its BLAS egg uses srfi-4 vectors and is a rather raw (it uses single-dimension vectors where one has to describe the shape to each operation), it does not provide its own array manipulation facilities.  The same is true for the Atlas-LAPACK egg.
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2015-09-18T20:45:28Z please_help: What I need isn't just blas anyway, it's hardware-accelerated blas "and more" (convolution, fft, and ways to manipulate the data on the device without a full round-trip)
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2015-09-18T20:47:01Z please_help: I already have bindings for a C library that does that, but no way to manipulate the data in the scheme implementation without causing copies three times, which is prohibitively expensive in terms of memory requirements.
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2015-09-18T20:51:35Z please_help: gambit also does not seem to have that.
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2015-09-19T09:58:53Z PinealGlandOptic: hi! how to get physical address of symbol in memory?
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2015-09-19T10:17:59Z taylanub: PinealGlandOptic: no standard way to do so.  refer to the documentation of your Scheme implementation.  e.g. in GNU Guile there's a procedure 'object-address'.  why exactly do you need this by the way?  there might be a better solution.
2015-09-19T10:22:22Z PinealGlandOptic: taylanub: is there such thing in MIT-Scheme or Racket?
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2015-09-19T10:36:05Z taylanub: PinealGlandOptic: I don't know.  they both have pretty good documentation AFAIK so you should be able to find it.  there's also a #racket IRC channel.
2015-09-19T10:36:37Z taylanub: and sometimes the main author of MIT/GNU Scheme, Taylor Campbell, is here under the nick Riastradh
2015-09-19T10:37:17Z PinealGlandOptic: taylanub: thanks
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2015-09-19T12:03:30Z kephra: taylanub, *oh*
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2015-09-19T12:24:38Z taylanub: kephra: ?
2015-09-19T12:26:34Z taylanub: actually I'm not sure now whether he was the main author or just the current maintainer.  at the very least the latter, and knows a ton about the implementation, so I assume probably the former too.
2015-09-19T12:27:08Z taylanub: Wikipedia lists the developers as "MIT" :-)
2015-09-19T12:27:54Z taylanub: oh wait, according to www.gnu.org/software/mit-scheme, "MIT/GNU Scheme is currently being maintained by Chris Hanson."  dunno then, best don't trust me :P
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2015-09-19T12:49:34Z kephra: taylanub, short search shows that he was teaching mit-scheme at mit, and contributed - wondering if he is a pig or a chicken ;-)
2015-09-19T12:52:17Z kephra: http://mumble.net/~campbell/scheme/style.txt <- this one is great!
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2015-09-20T12:04:59Z amz3: héllo
2015-09-20T12:06:41Z amz3: it's directly related to scheme, it's about pattern matching. Has anyone experience with pattern calculus and rho-calculus (there is an implementation called iRho in bigloo)
2015-09-20T12:06:46Z amz3: it's not*
2015-09-20T12:07:02Z amz3: http://www-sop.inria.fr/members/Luigi.Liquori/iRho/
2015-09-20T12:07:50Z amz3: what do you think about pi and rho calculus, can it be a pratical addition to a scheme?
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2015-09-20T12:19:34Z amz3: rewriting is synonym of pattern matching?
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2015-09-20T13:56:39Z pjb: amz3: well, rewriting is what lambda calculus is all about: beta-reduction is a rewriting rule.  Therefore I would conjecture that rewriting is Turing equivalent, and therefore you can implement pattern matching and everything else with rewriting rules.
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2015-09-20T14:41:00Z amz3: exact pjb you can implement turing machine using rewriting rule
2015-09-20T14:41:28Z amz3: the thing i find nice about rewriting rule is that it unify functional, imperative and querying
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2015-09-20T22:05:44Z ljcr: Hello, I am trying to write a procedure that recieves a list of characters, removes all the characters that are not part of another set of characters, I am a noob so I am not sure how to do this, can someone point me towards the appropriate piece of documentation or search terms? (Using MIT-Scheme)
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2015-09-21T01:08:12Z jivemeat: is scheme
2015-09-21T01:08:16Z jivemeat: like the programming language?
2015-09-21T01:12:02Z jivemeat: it is :). Hello, my question is: what do the stars do when definining a function like so. (define *my-function*)
2015-09-21T01:12:56Z dpk: that's a naming convention of some sort
2015-09-21T01:13:16Z dpk: perhaps for a definition of a procedure for internal use of a program only
2015-09-21T01:13:38Z dpk: * has no special meaning in Scheme, in that case the *s are just part of the name of the identifier for the procedure
2015-09-21T01:13:53Z jivemeat: hmm, so similar to using _private_var in cpp?
2015-09-21T01:14:03Z dpk: i've never used C++, so i don't know
2015-09-21T01:14:32Z vraid: jivemeat: just like that
2015-09-21T01:14:38Z dpk: is that a convention to prefix the names of internal variables with underscores? if so, yes
2015-09-21T01:14:42Z dpk: similar
2015-09-21T01:15:00Z jivemeat: oh no problem. my last qeustion is I have a function called in like (writeln (hedge).
2015-09-21T01:15:09Z jivemeat: How do I define a function with no parameters?
2015-09-21T01:15:29Z jivemeat: DrRacket is giving me some syntax error
2015-09-21T01:16:07Z vraid: jivemeat: (define (f) f)
2015-09-21T01:16:25Z jivemeat: okay ty :) guys
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2015-09-21T01:24:18Z jivemeat: Quick question why use #t / #f in this manner? ((null? sentence) #t) I'm sorry but the scheme syntax is weird to me.
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2015-09-21T17:56:16Z ASau: amz3: strictly speaking, Scheme can utilize pi- and rho-calculi already.
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2015-09-21T17:57:26Z ASau: Scheme has equality, thus nothing stops an implementation from utilizing properties of rho-calculus at the first sight.
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2015-09-21T18:10:09Z jivemeat: yo
2015-09-21T18:12:29Z jivemeat: If I read in input by using (read) how do I compare it to a function that contains a list like so? `( ( ((the names) (their names)) ))
2015-09-21T18:12:44Z jivemeat: using equal? keeps telling me there is a contract violation
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2015-09-21T18:28:53Z amz3: ASau: what do you mean by equality?
2015-09-21T18:29:33Z amz3: I what meant to ask is: do you find it useful compared to pattern matching found in scheme
2015-09-21T18:30:29Z amz3: the idea of having a single language to do querying, REST APis and tree rewritring seem very appealing
2015-09-21T18:30:39Z amz3: tree and graph rewritring
2015-09-21T18:31:11Z amz3: the question remains on my side, outside of fact that it's mathematical elegant, is it in terms of engineering interesting
2015-09-21T18:31:56Z amz3: because all the problems rho-calculs seem to solve are already or mostly solved in regular scheme
2015-09-21T18:32:10Z ASau: Sure.
2015-09-21T18:32:15Z ASau: That's because Scheme has equality.
2015-09-21T18:32:18Z amz3: for instance, what's the point of an implement of OO using "pattern matchin"
2015-09-21T18:32:51Z amz3: is `equal?" the equality your are talking about?
2015-09-21T18:33:14Z ASau: Yes.
2015-09-21T18:33:44Z ASau: I'm not sure, but it may happen that any equality suffices.
2015-09-21T18:35:13Z amz3: while reading documenting about rho-calculus i figured that I couldn't think about programs by reading math formulas
2015-09-21T18:35:49Z amz3: especially since the semantic of math construction can be so wide, you can express so much thing with this tiny letters
2015-09-21T18:36:07Z amz3: I think in terms of program language :/
2015-09-21T18:36:57Z ASau: Not sure I understand you.
2015-09-21T18:38:44Z neoncontrails: amz3: I certainly understand you. :)
2015-09-21T18:40:05Z neoncontrails: I think mathematics suffers from a cluttered namespace
2015-09-21T18:41:09Z ASau: Try physics then.
2015-09-21T18:42:25Z ASau: There's special fun in CFD where "p" may denote pressure and impulse simultaneously.
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2015-09-21T18:43:09Z neoncontrails: Possibly true! I'm less familiar with advanced physics.
2015-09-21T18:43:31Z neoncontrails: I think the problem is accentuated by the deductive style of proof
2015-09-21T18:43:51Z neoncontrails: Which is so dependent on the literal propositional content of the def
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2015-09-21T18:44:43Z neoncontrails: But this is totally an off-the cuff observation. I
2015-09-21T18:44:53Z neoncontrails: My own speculation purelt
2015-09-21T18:44:56Z ASau: Non-linear thermodynamics makes CFD even more fun.
2015-09-21T18:44:56Z neoncontrails: *purely
2015-09-21T18:45:52Z ASau: Sometimes you have "g", "G", fraktur "g", fraktur "G" and this is not enough.
2015-09-21T18:47:10Z ASau: Even equilibrium thermodynamics is fun, actually, when you need 3 indices for all variables.
2015-09-21T18:47:54Z neoncontrails: Right. I'm with amz3, I think one of the nice things about code (Lisps especially) is that they avert precisely this problem
2015-09-21T18:49:28Z ASau: If you start writing your equations as if it is code, you'll only make them larger for no benefit. :)
2015-09-21T18:49:41Z kephra: jivemeat, about the * stars/asterix - an * at the end means that this function is similar to the one without, e.g. let vs let*. an * at the beginning is an internal function, while an * both at begin and end means a global variable
2015-09-21T18:50:10Z kephra: this is pure human tradition, and not enforced by compiler
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2015-09-21T18:50:22Z ASau: Originally it meant repetitive version of original construct.
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2015-09-21T18:50:29Z ASau: Today it doesn't.
2015-09-21T18:50:40Z ASau: See letrec*.
2015-09-21T18:51:33Z kephra: today an foo* means, this is similar to foo but I was to lazy to pick a good name for it
2015-09-21T18:51:43Z kephra ducks for cover
2015-09-21T18:52:41Z ASau: In Scheme it means something like "it is like the construct without asterisk but not quite."
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2015-09-21T18:53:23Z jivemeat: Hey guys, I am working on a project and am hitting a roadblock because I can't get this thing to reponse back to me but dont know what's going wrong because it can successfully compile.
2015-09-21T18:53:25Z jivemeat: http://pastebin.com/d1wkzuCy
2015-09-21T18:53:54Z jivemeat: Can someone look that over and give me some direction on where my mistake is? I'm not looking for a flat out source code answer.
2015-09-21T18:55:31Z amz3: remark: I don't read much papers, and all of them are CS. The thing is that for instance, it's easier to read something about machine learning, say PCA, even if you don't understand the formula you can implement it (!) and what the paper explain is enough. But wiht language papers, it more complicated to do that since the forumal is the language, input and output are kind of open-ended
2015-09-21T18:57:22Z ASau: Then you run into the case where assumptions don't hold and you get garbage answer.
2015-09-21T18:58:37Z neoncontrails: jivemeat: It's been a while since I've looked at scheme code. I've never seen a definition like (define (hedge) hedge) before. If the function of no arguments just returns itself in the calling environment, how does this ultimately get applied?
2015-09-21T18:59:04Z ASau: And you're lucky, if you can detect it. :)
2015-09-21T18:59:07Z jivemeat: It's just a place holder function at the moment to get the thing to actually compile.
2015-09-21T18:59:52Z jivemeat: Ultimately i want to get strong-reply to work because a lot of the other functions are based off a similar design.
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2015-09-22T18:16:01Z amz3: A dream language feature I have, is a language that support distributed software development. Instead of storing non sensical objects in the DVCS store small procedures or modules with a clear contract. This will I think make free software development easier, more distributed and faster. Right now, the equivalent pratice is to look in stdlib, look on github, look on stackoverflow. That's one of the reason I
2015-09-22T18:16:04Z amz3: like scheme, it's a human P2P system
2015-09-22T18:16:25Z LeoNerd: Ah; that's why I use perl for any practical program
2015-09-22T18:16:29Z LeoNerd: CPAN is that mechanism :)
2015-09-22T18:18:16Z C-Keen: sounds like askemos :)
2015-09-22T18:20:09Z amz3: yes, CPAN, pypi, github mitigate the problem
2015-09-22T18:21:18Z amz3: there is also organized pastebin repositories like http://code.activestate.com/recipes/langs/python/
2015-09-22T18:22:45Z pjb: The most difficult part is to establish a good classification and search system.
2015-09-22T18:22:57Z amz3 looking at http://www.askemos.org/index.html/
2015-09-22T18:23:16Z amz3: pjb: find the correct "module"?
2015-09-22T18:24:05Z mario-goulart: just ask emos.
2015-09-22T18:26:13Z LeoNerd: Yah; some other langauges have attempted to recreate CPAN, but IMHO none with any real success. A few have code repositories, but CPAN is much much more than that. It has docs rendering and acts as the namespace arbitrartor and permissions system and integrates forward- and reverse-dependency graphs and smoke/integration testing and 3rd party wiki/commentary system and social-style ratings and ....
2015-09-22T18:26:28Z LeoNerd: So many things that I have never seen *in combination* in a way so well integrated with each other, in any other language.
2015-09-22T18:26:43Z amz3: askemos is intersting, but goes a step further and handles also secure distributed computation it's a language with RPC AFAIK
2015-09-22T18:26:58Z pjb: amz3: yes, only you seem to be asking for modules of the size of a single function.
2015-09-22T18:27:36Z amz3: what's the problem with that?
2015-09-22T18:28:16Z amz3: (think a wiki-like stdlib with multiple versions)
2015-09-22T18:28:30Z amz3: things can be organized nonetheless
2015-09-22T18:28:45Z pjb: Now in addition to write the function, write the documentation of the function, I have to classify (give a list of "keywords" or whatever) the function and/or algorithm.
2015-09-22T18:29:06Z pjb: I'm not saying it's impossible.
2015-09-22T18:29:31Z pjb: I'm saying that I'll rewrite the function faster than find the right keywords and find the right function in the resulting query.
2015-09-22T18:31:12Z amz3: 0) the system can add category and keyword based on the code (the module it use) and the documentation
2015-09-22T18:31:17Z amz3: 1) It's collaborative
2015-09-22T18:31:53Z amz3: 2) the function will be "categorized" naturally when people use it
2015-09-22T18:32:13Z amz3: querying in graph is difficult but not impossible
2015-09-22T18:32:48Z mario-goulart: Besides dependency tracking, you'd also need something like a per function module (for namespacing).  What if multiple symbols depend on different symbols that happen to share the same name?
2015-09-22T18:33:51Z mario-goulart: For example, proc1 and proc2 use proc3, but proc3 used by proc1 is from foo, and proc3 used by proc2 is from bar.
2015-09-22T18:34:24Z amz3: that's the crazy part.
2015-09-22T18:35:29Z amz3: 0) there were still be release, coherent set of procedures that you can readily use
2015-09-22T18:37:15Z amz3: 1) otherwise a lot of forks is required, but I imagine that those are small forks at the level module or procedure
2015-09-22T18:38:32Z amz3: readily how do you specify which version/fork of a module you require, you have to name it somehow, I think go-lang is example of that
2015-09-22T18:42:07Z amz3: in my dream, the distributed module is not a sheet of paper, another kind of s/text/code editor is required
2015-09-22T18:42:28Z ASau: A number of languages reimplemented CPAN with the same success:
2015-09-22T18:42:38Z ASau: producing nothing more but a huge pile of crap.
2015-09-22T18:43:11Z amz3: Span doesn't include a "fork" feature
2015-09-22T18:43:16Z amz3: CPAN sorry
2015-09-22T18:45:02Z LeoNerd: This is intentional. A given name has exactly one sequence of versions; exactly one 'latest version' at any moment in time
2015-09-22T18:45:07Z LeoNerd: This is a Good Thing
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2015-09-22T18:45:45Z LeoNerd: It means we can all agree that if you are using some named module, we all get the same named module
2015-09-22T18:46:36Z amz3: It's a thing that «Just Work(tm)»... today...
2015-09-22T18:46:40Z ASau wonders if anyone here knows about Gibbs' paradox.
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2015-09-22T18:48:00Z amz3: ASau: no I'd don't know it. Is it related to the previous conversation?
2015-09-22T18:48:26Z ASau: Yes, it is.
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2015-09-22T18:51:00Z amz3: you mean that mixing together a language and a dvcs will increase entropy ?
2015-09-22T18:52:08Z ASau: I mean that you may have objects that look identical but are not, and this will cause a lot of headache, if you don't "paint" them.
2015-09-22T18:52:44Z ASau: Note that "painting" in distributed environment suggests solving consensus problem. :)
2015-09-22T18:52:50Z ASau: Which makes it look a special fun.
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2015-09-22T18:56:02Z amz3: objects are fully identified via their a uri
2015-09-22T18:56:55Z amz3: what I thinking about doesn't solve the general problem of distributed computation and development, it solve only the distributed development part by making it more easy to share and distribute smaller piece of code that can provide a head start for people
2015-09-22T18:57:00Z ASau: URI?
2015-09-22T18:57:02Z ASau: Ha-ha-ha!
2015-09-22T18:57:45Z amz3: It doesn't even need to be part of language stricly, as long as you can tell which piece of software comes from where, and how to update it or look for other versions
2015-09-22T18:57:56Z amz3: s/software/module or procedure
2015-09-22T19:00:07Z amz3: it's like Desktop Environment, instead of putting together of Windows Manager, File Manager, a clock widget, a network manager you install a desktop environment and then you can do the regular thing you do with a Dekstop. This system is in no way, a break-through in programming language theory
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2015-09-22T19:00:50Z ASau: Imagine that you publish a library with URI "library:amz3/libcool".
2015-09-22T19:01:04Z amz3: yeah!
2015-09-22T19:01:04Z ASau: What happens when I publish a library with URI "library:amz3/libcool" too?
2015-09-22T19:01:26Z amz3: you can't, this is part of the underlying P2P naming service
2015-09-22T19:01:40Z ASau: Why cannot I?
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2015-09-22T19:01:48Z ASau: What stops me?
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2015-09-22T19:02:03Z amz3: I mean, the way it's implemented is that you can, but the module is signed so even if you publish something under my namespace you can have the correct signature
2015-09-22T19:02:19Z amz3: you can't have the correct signature
2015-09-22T19:02:24Z ASau: I can publish under different signature. So what?
2015-09-22T19:02:44Z ASau: What is "correct signature"?
2015-09-22T19:02:56Z ASau: What makes one signature "correct" and other not?
2015-09-22T19:03:21Z amz3: cryptogrphy
2015-09-22T19:03:46Z amz3: other peers, won't publish your package since it's not the correct signature
2015-09-22T19:04:58Z amz3: basically you can't publish under my namespace, except if my cryptography key is compromised
2015-09-22T19:05:07Z amz3: this is already at play in gittorrent
2015-09-22T19:05:33Z ASau: Oh, really?
2015-09-22T19:05:35Z ASau: Why exactly?
2015-09-22T19:05:52Z amz3: why what you can't publish under my name?
2015-09-22T19:06:22Z ASau: Consider that I generate my personal signature and pretend that it's you.
2015-09-22T19:06:38Z ASau: What exactly stops me from publishing a library signed by that signature?
2015-09-22T19:06:56Z amz3: i have a moustache, you don't :)
2015-09-22T19:07:15Z ASau: Ha-ha-ha!
2015-09-22T19:07:26Z amz3: in that case, you can, but that's already a problem in current eco-system
2015-09-22T19:07:27Z ASau has moustache.
2015-09-22T19:07:59Z ASau: Anyway, hair is not related.
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2015-09-22T19:08:22Z ASau: Even if I'm bold, this doesn't stop me from impersonating you.
2015-09-22T19:08:37Z amz3: yes, but why would believe you?
2015-09-22T19:09:07Z ASau: ENOPARSE.
2015-09-22T19:11:37Z amz3: why would people believe that you me? You simply come and publish on the Internet and simply say that you are me. Using cryptographic involve key sharing, if nobody sign you public nobody will believe that you are the person you pretend to be
2015-09-22T19:12:12Z amz3: if nobody sign your public key impersonating me, nobody will believe you
2015-09-22T19:12:59Z ASau: Why would people belive you rather than me?
2015-09-22T19:13:23Z ASau: I can create a number of peers that will happily sign my key.
2015-09-22T19:13:32Z amz3: (if you thinking about the general problem of impersonating, I think that people have cognitive signature and that it might possible via Q/A to verify that a person is the person it pretends to be, provided that the person has already shared its cognitive signature )
2015-09-22T19:15:00Z amz3: ASau: yes, trust in the context of distributed computing and network is an open/difficult problem
2015-09-22T19:15:27Z ASau: Why do you think it can be solved?
2015-09-22T19:17:52Z amz3: because I'm hopeful.
2015-09-22T19:21:05Z amz3: except if you have a social engeeniering industry behind you, you can't fool 1000 people 1000 times ;)
2015-09-22T19:23:34Z amz3: (even if there is example of the contrary in human history, like the fall of Rome and Greece (Democracy disappeared) but those were different times
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2015-09-22T20:54:05Z pjb: amz3: social engineering need to become very much more sophisticated, otherwise you will always have at least one person detecting the manipulations, and with internet that may be enough.
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2015-09-22T20:55:59Z amz3: There is no Mule (in the sens of Fundation), even if one person detect the manipulation it will require as much as power as the one doing the original engineering
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2015-09-22T20:57:15Z amz3: To be precise I don't want to believe in the Mule, everybody is a Mule or nobody is.
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2015-09-22T21:06:35Z pjb: amz3: they do have a social engineering industry behind them. What do you think the press and hollywood are?
2015-09-22T21:11:57Z ASau: Empirically, you need at least 5% of population noticing it only in order to make the problem visible (perhaps the number is higher, I don't remember exactly).
2015-09-22T21:12:09Z ASau: 5% is definitely way more than one person.
2015-09-22T21:12:46Z ASau: Also note that 5% is marginal opinion.
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2015-09-22T21:19:44Z amz3: As an individual I don't have enough tool to understand 5% of the world (computer science), speaking about some individual or group outside bigV that understand 5% of the world is not correct
2015-09-22T21:20:54Z amz3: otherwise said only bigV understand the world
2015-09-22T21:21:02Z amz3: (or have the tool to do so)
2015-09-22T21:24:33Z pjb: Yes, that may be a problem.
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2015-09-23T21:02:59Z tj_: how could i make a mit-scheme executable? does it support scripting, i couldn't find anything conclusive in the documentation
2015-09-23T21:03:35Z tj_: i need it for the parsing, and i'll pipe a lot of stuff together with guile
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2015-09-24T10:37:03Z tj_: how can i make a mit-scheme executable? what would the sha-bang line look like?
2015-09-24T10:37:13Z tj_: or, can i compile it into an executable?
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2015-09-24T11:13:59Z ecraven: http://vepa.in/technology/mit-scheme-unix-scripts-and-cgi
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2015-09-24T11:30:07Z taylanub: tj_: ^
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2015-09-24T11:56:31Z tj_: thanks ecraven
2015-09-24T11:56:55Z tj_: thanks, taylanub
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2015-09-24T17:20:55Z daviid: anyonw here is using kawa?
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2015-09-24T17:27:40Z taylanub: daviid: AFAIK most of the Kawa community is on its mailing list
2015-09-24T17:30:18Z daviid: taylanub: yep, I'm on #kawa which is rather dead, too bad
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2015-09-24T17:41:07Z daviid: their channel is not logged and there is no bot either
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2015-09-24T18:05:50Z ecraven: daviid: I am, sometimes
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2015-09-24T18:07:53Z daviid: ecraven: I have a quizz, could you login to #kawa?
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2015-09-24T20:23:57Z daviid: anyone can paste here a simple define-library example [RS7RS]?
2015-09-24T20:24:16Z daviid: (define-library ij)\n(export bluefox) fails
2015-09-24T20:24:25Z daviid: totally ignorant of RS7RS
2015-09-24T20:25:48Z daviid: allo?
2015-09-24T20:28:40Z taylanub: daviid: (define-library (foo) (import (scheme base) (scheme case-lambda) ...) (export foo bar baz) (begin (define foo ...)) (include "foo.body.scm"))
2015-09-24T20:29:14Z daviid: let try taylanub tx
2015-09-24T20:29:31Z taylanub: you can also just read the R7RS, it's not really that difficult :)
2015-09-24T20:30:16Z daviid: wel i wanted a quick set-up but i can read, what link? guile does not have it i think
2015-09-24T20:30:34Z daviid: also, the define must be inside the library? really bizare to me
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2015-09-24T20:31:03Z daviid: so the file identation must be horrible if define is not top-level...
2015-09-24T20:31:06Z daviid: oh man
2015-09-24T20:32:09Z amz3: that's what I was telling myself
2015-09-24T20:32:24Z daviid: teriible
2015-09-24T20:32:30Z daviid: won't use it
2015-09-24T20:32:47Z amz3: indentation is not possible with widescreen (tm)
2015-09-24T20:32:56Z amz3: s/possible/a problem/
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2015-09-24T20:40:13Z taylanub: daviid: usually you include the body file
2015-09-24T20:41:29Z taylanub: someone should make Emacs zero-indent 'define-library' contents
2015-09-24T20:41:55Z taylanub: or rather, 'begin' forms in 'define-library'
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2015-09-24T21:03:09Z daviid: taylanub: a short and complete [not using ...] example would be nice
2015-09-24T21:03:46Z daviid does not like R7RS :)
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2015-09-25T08:05:27Z taylanub: daviid: have a hundred examples :)  https://github.com/TaylanUB/scheme-srfis/tree/master/srfi
2015-09-25T08:08:18Z taylanub: daviid: what is there not to like about R7RS-small, in your opinion?  (I know a couple things, but 'define-library' is not one of them.)
2015-09-25T08:09:53Z daviid: taylanub: click on the first 1.body,scm and it does not define a library? do you have a 10 lines of code defining a library and the code within the same file ?
2015-09-25T08:10:38Z taylanub: daviid: 2.sld has no corresponding .body.scm, but the difference is really trivial.  I don't think 'define-library' is difficult to understand...
2015-09-25T08:10:46Z daviid: by the way, kawa people explained that in kawa you don't define a module, the file is a module.  you just export [and if not everything is exported]
2015-09-25T08:11:55Z daviid: taylanub: I just dont get it: what id the R7RS correponding 'action' to define what we define in guile usng define=module and export what we wna t to export ?
2015-09-25T08:12:29Z daviid: a 10 lines module, let say fact
2015-09-25T08:12:52Z daviid: a module that define factorial and export it using this r7rs library code
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2015-09-25T08:16:14Z taylanub: (define-library (factorial) (import (scheme base)) (export factorial) (begin (define (factorial n) ...)))
2015-09-25T08:16:22Z daviid: teriible
2015-09-25T08:16:25Z daviid: but thanks
2015-09-25T08:16:26Z taylanub: O_o
2015-09-25T08:16:32Z daviid: no thanks
2015-09-25T08:16:39Z taylanub: it couldn't possibly be any simpler than that
2015-09-25T08:17:56Z daviid: man, define-module should not impose to use begin ?!? and than the name is branine damaged, it is not a library, it is a module: a libbrary is the sum of many modules ... oh well
2015-09-25T08:18:14Z daviid: i hope nobody uses r7rs
2015-09-25T08:18:34Z daviid: lie windows, time to write r8rs haha
2015-09-25T08:18:54Z daviid: sorry, you have nothig to do with that of course
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2015-09-25T08:28:01Z daviid: also, I open 1 of your files, I don't not which modules it pertains to or which library it pertains to anymore? what is the module/library I should use/import if I wanted to use your 48.body,scm ?
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2015-09-25T09:11:20Z taylanub: daviid: you need to check your attitude a bit.  1. it's hard to tell apart bodies of code from library boilerplate without putting bodies of code into (begin ...) forms; it would muddy the semantics.  2. reserving the term "library" for "collection of modules" doesn't seem bad, but it's a bikeshedding issue; I've never seen or heard of confusion arising because of the R6RS's and R7RS's decision to
2015-09-25T09:11:20Z taylanub: call them libraries.  3. I hope as many people as possible use R7RS, because it's the only standard so far which seems to have *some* hope of bringing together the community (the one big mistake being that it was too anti-R6RS).  4. srfi/48.body.scm is obviously the file containing the body of code for the library (srfi 48), whose library declaration is in srfi/48.sld.
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2015-09-25T10:42:15Z daviid: taylanub: the only reason i can see to impose a (begin ...) and then all library definitions are not 'top-level' anymore [which is rather inconvenient afaic] is to be able to define more then 1 library/module wthin a single file, which is not a good idea imo.  it also somehow forced you to split in 2 files? otherwise why not just define 48.scm  [I guess you also like to see your define top-level].  then yes, obviously, it's in the name.
2015-09-25T10:42:15Z daviid: now, i want to use this 48.body.scm somwhere else, which I can't, unless I define another lib, which includes it, but won't be called 48 anymore.  and if I change 48.body.scm how does the compiler knows it must recompile 48.sld
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2015-09-25T10:47:42Z daviid: don't waste your time though, I was desapointed by the design, which I just discovered because of the fact that i have to use kawa, but it's been designed, and won't change, so our conversation is useless, and no personnal offense, as I already said
2015-09-25T10:48:18Z daviid: have to go afk, see u i guile soon, cheers
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2015-09-25T11:28:36Z taylanub: so many assumptions and knee-jerk reactions...
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2015-09-25T12:41:26Z calher: Trying scsh.  Really cool.
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2015-09-26T00:41:38Z zacts: hi schemers
2015-09-26T00:41:42Z zacts: calher: are you using scsh?
2015-09-26T00:41:52Z zacts: I couldn't get the github scsh to properly build and install for me... :-/
2015-09-26T00:41:58Z zacts: I really wanted to try it out though
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2015-09-26T01:34:29Z calher: zacts: yeah, and it looks like i'll have to reimplement scsh in guile if i want to write shell scripts in guile
2015-09-26T01:35:19Z calher: people who write extensions in the implementation rather than in functions make me mad.
2015-09-26T01:35:32Z calher: scheme should not be fragmented
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2015-09-26T01:37:24Z jao: calher, https://github.com/ChaosEternal/guile-scsh
2015-09-26T01:40:09Z calher: jao: That may be non-free.  The dude who wrote the original guile-scsh said it had to be non-commercial, which makes it proprietary software.
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2015-09-26T01:41:42Z jao: there's a COPYING file
2015-09-26T01:42:00Z jao: it looks like the scsh one
2015-09-26T01:43:33Z calher: I believe https://github.com/ChaosEternal/guile-scsh infringes copyright, because ftp://ftp.ru.debian.org/debian-archive/debian/dists/potato/non-free/binary-sparc/libs/guile-scsh_1998.08.24-1.1.deb contains a statement in the LICENSE dir that clearly says it's noncommercial GPL (an oxymoron!)
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2015-09-26T01:46:24Z dpk: not really an oxymoron. it's legitimate, if not entirely sensible, to attach a codicil to the GPL saying 'non-commercial use only'
2015-09-26T01:47:06Z dpk: also, i wouldn't call CC BY-NC(-SA)? works 'proprietary'. they might not be 'free' (in the FSF sense), but they're certainly not proprietary either
2015-09-26T01:47:08Z calher: No, that conflicts with the definition of free software, moron.  It must be illegal.
2015-09-26T01:47:12Z pjb: dpk: no, free software can be used freely. you cannot restrict its use.
2015-09-26T01:47:22Z dpk: sure, it makes it non-free
2015-09-26T01:47:30Z dpk: but it's not legally impossible to do so
2015-09-26T01:47:33Z pjb: Adding such a codicil to the GPL makes it entirely non-GPL.
2015-09-26T01:48:14Z dpk: nor is it ridiculous to say "I licence this work under the GPL, with the exception that it be used for non-commercial purposes only"
2015-09-26T01:48:31Z pjb: What you can do, is to distribute the same software under two different license: a GPL license (allowing commercial uses (but remember, commercial distribution must include the sources, including of any derived work), and a non-GPL license.
2015-09-26T01:48:31Z calher: Altho I've heard it's possible for the copyright holder to give someone a binary under the GPL and not give the source code, if they are the only author.
2015-09-26T01:48:39Z dpk: in software terms, you just import all of the GPL then monkey-patch it to be a bit non-free
2015-09-26T01:48:57Z pjb: dpk: it is ridiculous, because the exceptions means that you don't license it under the GPL at all!
2015-09-26T01:49:26Z pjb: calher: this is perfectly correct: the copyright owner can distribute the software under various licenses.
2015-09-26T01:49:30Z calher: OK, this might have to go to #fsf
2015-09-26T01:49:34Z dpk: yeah, heh
2015-09-26T01:50:05Z pjb: dpk: in terms of software what you're doing is make it crash.
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2015-09-26T02:34:28Z please_help: dpk: non-commercial only infringes on the freedom to use the software however one wants. It is not possible for GPL'd software to be "non-commercial only".
2015-09-26T02:35:02Z dpk: no, but my point is that it's possible to use the GPL as the basis of a non-commercial–only licence
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2015-09-26T03:09:45Z pjb: dpk: just don't say GPL.  Adding such an exclusion makes it entirely incompatible with GPL.
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2015-09-26T04:15:16Z aeth: dpk: just use MIT as the basis instead or something... or use AGPLv3, which is de facto non-commercial because of all of the restrictions
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2015-09-27T04:18:55Z zacts: lo schemers
2015-09-27T04:18:57Z zacts: 'lo
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2015-09-27T09:02:49Z kephra: moin,moin
2015-09-27T09:02:59Z kephra had an exciting day, yesterday
2015-09-27T09:03:14Z kephra: intercontinental chicken scheme conference
2015-09-27T09:04:34Z C-Keen: glad you liked it ;)
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2015-09-27T09:09:38Z kephra: *yeah* meeting some of the fellow ircers in person was great
2015-09-27T09:09:51Z kephra: we had been about 22 people, iirc
2015-09-27T09:10:10Z kephra: on saturday evening
2015-09-27T09:10:23Z C-Keen: yep
2015-09-27T09:11:40Z kephra: way home was stressing - the train that should have go from Goettingen to Bremen directly stopped in Hannover - we had to switch trains - and I was an hour later then expected at home
2015-09-27T09:12:28Z C-Keen: ouch
2015-09-27T09:22:58Z kephra: C-Keen, do you know who talked about " packaging systems " yesterday ( did not remember the nick - the RL was something like Alex, iirc )
2015-09-27T09:24:27Z C-Keen: dgasau
2015-09-27T09:27:06Z kephra: *ah* thanks!
2015-09-27T09:27:22Z kephra: his talk was important for me
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2015-09-27T09:27:53Z kephra: at least, we both agree on autoconf as the (right) way
2015-09-27T09:30:15Z C-Keen: a bit of a controversial topic to say the least ;)
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2015-09-27T09:33:07Z kephra: autoconf + make is old school - but still better then ant, cmake, ... or other half baken replacements
2015-09-27T09:33:58Z kephra: but his topic would be valid for a complete day
2015-09-27T09:34:23Z kephra: e.g. lets handwave a distribution includes slib
2015-09-27T09:35:46Z kephra: the distribution would need a scheme equivalent of ASDF and CLC to support several schemes
2015-09-27T09:37:06Z kephra: Scheme has one benefit over Perl or Python in this case
2015-09-27T09:37:18Z kephra: its not needed for the distribution itself
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2015-09-27T10:06:36Z C-Keen: I don't understand that last bit
2015-09-27T10:20:57Z kephra: in Perl one has the problem that there is a Perl required for the distribution, with its packages provided by distribution - and you need an /opt/perl or /usr/local/bin/perl in addition to maintain CPANs required by application
2015-09-27T10:21:57Z kephra: with Scheme's I can just ignore the distribition, e.g. Debian Chicken, completely - and install my own from scratch
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2015-09-27T16:27:21Z zacts: kephra: I install a local chicken to ~/.installs/chicken
2015-09-27T16:27:34Z zacts: via: make PLATFORM=linux PREFIX=/home/zacts/.installs/chicken
2015-09-27T16:27:49Z zacts: and then: make install PLATFORM=linux PREFIX=/home/zacts/.installs/chicken
2015-09-27T16:28:14Z zacts: then I do in ~/.bashrc: export PATH="$HOME/.installs/chicken:$PATH"
2015-09-27T16:28:22Z zacts: and then I export the MANPATH too I think
2015-09-27T16:28:34Z zacts: that should override your system chicken
2015-09-27T16:28:56Z zacts: if this PATH line is after any other PATH line that adds your system chicken to your bash environment
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2015-09-27T21:41:29Z kakadu: Hey, folks. I have started studying minikanren and I can't put it into toplevel: error is about duplicate arguments when declaring ext-A. http://paste.in.ua/610/#191 Can you help me to fix this issue?
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2015-09-28T09:00:46Z DGASAU: C-Keen: I think he means that you can compile to binary code and distribute runtime support only, if at all.
2015-09-28T09:00:50Z DGASAU: kephra: ?
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2015-09-28T10:26:34Z kephra: DGASAU, are you still in Goettingen?
2015-09-28T10:28:56Z DGASAU: No, I'm in Berlin right now.
2015-09-28T10:29:19Z kephra: *ah* back home, and no jetlag
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2015-09-28T10:29:49Z DGASAU: It would be funny to have jet lag when travelling by local trains.
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2015-09-28T10:31:09Z kephra: China announced on last End of WW2 parade (together with Putin), that it will build a high speed train from Moskau to Peking
2015-09-28T10:31:34Z DGASAU: Modernizing Transsib??
2015-09-28T10:31:54Z kephra: Russia will lease land at its border to china in return, the lease option includes an area half the size of texas
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2015-09-28T10:32:13Z DGASAU: Well... I'm not sure it's that easy.
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2015-09-28T10:32:35Z kephra: first step is building 770km from moskau till 2018, with a lease in return about the size of estonia
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2015-09-28T10:32:51Z kephra: 50 years lease - china can use that land, as if its their own
2015-09-28T10:33:23Z DGASAU: Do you have a reference on that statement?
2015-09-28T10:33:26Z kephra: the train should have a top speed of 420km/h and average speed around 300km/h
2015-09-28T10:33:46Z kephra: let me search - it was somewhere in russian news
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2015-09-28T10:36:22Z DGASAU: Alright I have found some mention at "Siberian Times..."
2015-09-28T10:36:42Z kephra: first leg Moskow -> Kazan
2015-09-28T10:37:42Z DGASAU: I'm not sure that 2018 is realistic term for that part even.
2015-09-28T10:37:59Z kephra: *well* back to topic - you are an expert in the question: how to layout a build system for a (scheme) language to make it easy for distribition maintainers
2015-09-28T10:38:35Z DGASAU: Not sure what you call "layout" here.
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2015-09-28T10:39:04Z DGASAU: Build system is quite different thing that I didn't cover on Saturday.
2015-09-28T10:39:10Z kephra: the way how you download, unpack, configure, build and decide where to install
2015-09-28T10:39:28Z DGASAU: Ah, alright.
2015-09-28T10:39:46Z kephra: there are endless ways to configure, build - some might be better, some not so good for maintaining
2015-09-28T10:39:50Z DGASAU: Besides making those in separate stages, we want the following:
2015-09-28T10:40:04Z DGASAU: 1. Fetch should be possible by our tools.
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2015-09-28T10:40:31Z DGASAU: Insisting on using your personal toy doesn't make your software appealing.
2015-09-28T10:40:46Z DGASAU: 2. Same for unpacking.
2015-09-28T10:41:42Z DGASAU: 3. Configure should provide enough control to provide external dependencies the way we do.
2015-09-28T10:41:57Z DGASAU: Paths to libraries, headers, and all the rest.
2015-09-28T10:42:37Z DGASAU: If anything cannot be satisfied, configure should just abort and report what it expected.
2015-09-28T10:42:51Z DGASAU: What constraint is not satisfied.
2015-09-28T10:43:22Z DGASAU: (Like "I want liblablabla version 6.6.6 at least...")
2015-09-28T10:44:14Z DGASAU: Or "I want http-client version 0.8 at least."
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2015-09-28T10:45:36Z DGASAU: 4. Same for build phase.
2015-09-28T10:45:43Z kephra: *ok* lets start with fetch - its currently manual ;-( visit o3db.com, look whats the actual version, click download
2015-09-28T10:46:27Z DGASAU: 5. Install must support staged installation. It also ought not to build remnants of your software.
2015-09-28T10:46:43Z kephra: i do not want to offer ftp, because ftp is a pain for IP rules
2015-09-28T10:46:52Z DGASAU: HTTP is just fine.
2015-09-28T10:47:42Z kephra: so, whats the best way to signal a new version? or to tell distribution about actual version numbers
2015-09-28T10:48:31Z DGASAU: Just put it in the same place, and in many cases a robot will check it and notify appropriate parties.
2015-09-28T10:48:33Z DGASAU: ;)
2015-09-28T10:48:57Z kephra: same place in terms of a 30x redirect?
2015-09-28T10:49:16Z DGASAU: In terms of sharing the same path on the url.
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2015-09-28T10:49:36Z kephra: so o3db.com/download would now redirect to http://o3db.com/pub/o3db-src-0.270.tar.gz
2015-09-28T10:49:44Z kephra: and tomorrow to a different URL
2015-09-28T10:49:44Z DGASAU: No, don't do that.
2015-09-28T10:49:59Z DGASAU: Just let people see http://o3db.com/pub/
2015-09-28T10:50:16Z kephra: the complete directory tree
2015-09-28T10:50:58Z DGASAU: You can put it into separate subdirectory and open it to indexing.
2015-09-28T10:51:27Z DGASAU: A robot will come, fetch the listing, see new files that match pattern and report.
2015-09-28T10:52:24Z kephra: *ok* so fetch phase goes over http and an index page of available /pub/ files
2015-09-28T10:52:51Z kephra: tar.gz for unpacking should cause no problem
2015-09-28T10:53:06Z kephra: next step is configure
2015-09-28T10:54:11Z kephra: config currently requires to edit a file to tell the system lots of path and urls
2015-09-28T10:54:24Z kephra: the default is an installation into /var/tmp/
2015-09-28T10:54:41Z kephra: and a set of 3 localhost http servers
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2015-09-28T10:56:40Z kephra: and thats the point, where we leave the typical computer language implementation
2015-09-28T10:58:28Z kephra: normal languages install into /usr(/local){/bin, /lib, /share, ...}
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2015-09-28T10:59:58Z kephra: currently o3db installs its php lib into its own directory, and not into /usr/local/share - the question is, if application libraries should go into the system?
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2015-09-28T11:01:12Z kephra: php is an easy case - i have no idea what would be best practice, once I have an alternative to PHP (Chicken/FastCGI)
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2015-09-28T11:02:04Z kephra: you told: please do !NOT! recurse
2015-09-28T11:02:33Z kephra: so, if configure detects chicken, I must not recurse into installing the fastcgi egg, but just report, if its missing
2015-09-28T11:03:28Z kephra: now OS distribution certainly wants to split o3db, once I provide server alternatives
2015-09-28T11:03:46Z kephra: into o3db for php, o3db for ruby, o3db for java, o3db for chicken, ...
2015-09-28T11:04:08Z kephra: i fear, this will become a complete mess, DGASAU ;-)
2015-09-28T11:04:24Z kephra: ... if we do not think careful first
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2015-09-28T11:09:15Z DGASAU: <kephra> so, if configure detects chicken, I must not recurse into installing the fastcgi egg, but just report, if its missing
2015-09-28T11:09:17Z DGASAU: Yes, exactly.
2015-09-28T11:09:40Z DGASAU: At least provide a switch that we can toggle and have this behaviour.
2015-09-28T11:10:21Z DGASAU: As for editing file...
2015-09-28T11:10:47Z DGASAU: The way autoconf implements it is the best so far.
2015-09-28T11:11:04Z DGASAU: You provide placeholders like @prefix@ and let others to replace them.
2015-09-28T11:11:09Z kephra: you can provide o3-config.in after unpacking - else it will take the default
2015-09-28T11:11:50Z DGASAU: Splitting distributions may sound tricky, that's true.
2015-09-28T11:12:07Z DGASAU: You can use the same tarball, actually, I don't quite understand the problem.
2015-09-28T11:14:14Z kephra: let me prepare --prefix option, and I'll tell you a new URL to check
2015-09-28T11:14:21Z DGASAU: Perhaps you want to reconsider and ask question again when I have more time to think about it.
2015-09-28T11:14:54Z kephra: *sure* gimmy a tell - or join #o3db when you have time
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2015-09-29T06:27:53Z Madsy: I'm a bit confused on what "read" does compared to what "eval" does. When read creates objects it only does so if evaluation isn't required, right?
2015-09-29T06:28:37Z Madsy: So symbols, lists and numbers are turned into objects, but a function object from a lambda isn't created until the form is evaluated
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2015-09-29T06:37:26Z pjb: Madsy: try: (read) RET (hello 1 2 (+ 3 4)) RET  (eval '(+ 2 3) (scheme-report-environment 5)) RET
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2015-09-29T06:39:41Z pjb: Madsy: actually, it's the compiler that creates the function objects.  It's the closures that are created only at run-time.
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2015-09-29T06:43:16Z Madsy: pjb: I suppose that depends on whether you're using a compiler or an interpreter
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2015-09-29T06:44:24Z Madsy: pjb: Which doesn't matter to me really. I just need to know if I understood "read" correctly.
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2015-09-29T06:59:07Z ASau: Madsy: if you know canonical compilers, then "read" does lexing and parsing and yields AST, "eval" does compilation and interpretation and yields program effects.
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2015-09-29T07:06:30Z kephra: Madsy, http://o3db.com/demo/dpaste.html#3M194K1 <- this example should explain read and eval
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2015-09-29T07:33:28Z kephra: http://o3db.com/demo/dpaste.html#3RSD5X9 <- this dpaste explains my non standard the-environment and make environment
2015-09-29T07:41:13Z kephra: Madsy, the dpaste.html source code itself also shows load, run, and read, eval, print loop
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2015-09-29T07:42:16Z kephra: be warned - o3db is a scheme look like! e.g. no cons cells is the biggest difference, no hygenic macros the other - besides that it passes most of r4rs
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2015-09-29T18:08:04Z xyh: any ideas how to implement partial order [or lattice] into the naming mechanism ?
2015-09-29T18:08:05Z xyh: [used by the sub-type feature of the type system]
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2015-09-29T19:49:39Z Fare: where is there an implementation of olin's loop?
2015-09-29T19:49:51Z Fare: I'm told there's one for scheme48
2015-09-29T19:52:04Z jcowan: Fare: AFAIK nowhere publicly visible
2015-09-29T19:52:10Z Fare: :-(
2015-09-29T19:52:17Z Fare: good to know
2015-09-29T19:52:50Z Fare: jcowan: what is the status of standardizing something better than syntax-rules ?
2015-09-29T19:53:10Z Fare is mildly ashamed not to know the answer already
2015-09-29T19:53:51Z jcowan disagrees with "better", but no matter....
2015-09-29T19:54:32Z jcowan: A vote taken long ago standardized ER.  There are docket items to vote on SC and syntax-case, because Aaron said he would have voted differently if he had understood the voting rules
2015-09-29T19:55:05Z jcowan: There are several versions of foof-loop about: foof's and Riastradh's
2015-09-29T19:55:06Z Fare: ER = explicit-renaming (is that what scheme48 uses?) What's SC if not syntax-case ?
2015-09-29T19:55:12Z jcowan: Syntactic closures
2015-09-29T19:55:21Z jcowan: it is a superset of ER
2015-09-29T19:55:26Z Fare: ok
2015-09-29T19:55:49Z jcowan: I think Scheme48 has both.  Chicken has ER and so does Larceny.
2015-09-29T19:55:53Z jcowan: I should make a page
2015-09-29T19:58:13Z Fare: thanks
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2015-09-29T19:59:53Z Fare: I admit I'm slighly more interested in syntax-case and racket, because AFAICT the syntax objects fully embody their source context instead of that context being relative to some implicit sequence of renamings that are going to be applied.
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2015-09-29T20:01:35Z Fare: also, matthew flatt blew everyone's minds with his color sets for identifiers at this RacketCon and ambiguity issues. Coming from someone else, I'd have bet that someone is full of shit somehow, but coming from him, I believe I'm just missing something.
2015-09-29T20:04:35Z jcowan: pointer?
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2015-09-29T21:37:22Z samth: taylanub: someone may have mentioned this to you elsewhere, but there were long discussions of what to return from `set!` et al in the r6rs process
2015-09-29T21:37:52Z jcowan: yes, described to him on c.l.s
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2015-09-30T09:40:51Z taylanub: jcowan: huh, I don't see that?..  maybe the Usenet server I use is slow on updates.
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2015-09-30T10:00:38Z taylanub: I just checked the R6RS discussion archives and saw some mentions of zero return values indeed
2015-09-30T10:01:33Z taylanub: anyway, it's not a very important thing I think.  I'd like some future standard to allow a "strict mode" of returning zero values and accepting *no* values in non-final body expressions though.
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2015-09-30T16:18:02Z sarah49: hi
2015-09-30T16:19:58Z sarah49: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_H1kf9OM6zc
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