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2015-08-01T07:05:53Z emre`: Hello, which Scheme shall I use for SICP? And does MIT Scheme work well with the picture language?
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2015-08-01T07:52:51Z z0d: emre`: Racket used to have teaching packs for SICP
2015-08-01T07:53:02Z z0d: I don't know if it's still the case
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2015-08-01T09:22:50Z pjb: z0d: mit-scheme is the best, since this is the scheme used by sicp.
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2015-08-01T09:48:44Z z0d: ah, ok
2015-08-01T09:50:29Z z0d: I was a long time I did SICP. I think I was using PLT Scheme then. It's now Racket
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2015-08-01T09:58:08Z csed: Is there a channel for beginner questions, like #clnoobs for Common Lisp?
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2015-08-01T10:24:18Z z0d: csed: you can ask beginner questions here
2015-08-01T10:24:38Z z0d: I came here before I wrote anything in Scheme and people were helpful
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2015-08-01T10:27:34Z csed: z0d: Good to know, cheers.
2015-08-01T10:40:58Z kephra: csed, we all started as beginners here ;-)
2015-08-01T10:41:59Z kephra: ... more or less - there might be an exceptional Scheme guru, who wrote a Scheme that is older then IRC
2015-08-01T10:42:44Z csed: That's fine. As long as it's the appropriate channel.
2015-08-01T10:42:54Z z0d: it is
2015-08-01T10:43:01Z csed: Great.
2015-08-01T10:43:16Z kephra: there are a dozen special channels, for each Scheme implementation
2015-08-01T10:43:28Z kephra: often with less then a handful users
2015-08-01T10:43:52Z csed: kephra: Yep, I'm in #guile as well. But I'm just trying to figure out Scheme first, then I can mess with Guile-specific things proper.
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2015-08-01T18:25:58Z zacts: hi schemers
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2015-08-01T18:40:02Z ecraven: hey zacts
2015-08-01T18:40:33Z zacts: z0d: also chicken scheme has a really great sicp egg (an 'egg' is the chicken scheme lingo for a module)
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2015-08-01T19:03:02Z z0d: hi
2015-08-01T19:03:55Z z0d: thanks. though it wasn't me who was searching for it <-:
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2015-08-01T20:17:08Z dbohdan: l
2015-08-01T20:23:47Z dbohdan: Hey guys, how similar are Bigloo and Gambit? Both are portable, compile to C and both seem to have an active community.
2015-08-01T20:24:24Z dbohdan: I am looking for a Scheme that compiles to C and I found it hard to decide between these two.
2015-08-01T20:27:47Z wasamasa: bigloo got a community?
2015-08-01T20:28:22Z dbohdan: s/community/mailing list/
2015-08-01T20:28:34Z wasamasa: also, why not CHICKEN?
2015-08-01T20:28:42Z wasamasa: they got more than a mailing list :P
2015-08-01T20:36:00Z dbohdan: Actually, no reason why. I forgot about it.
2015-08-01T20:38:07Z dbohdan: Last time I looked into compile-to-C Schemes I remember thinking that Gambit's source code seemed more clear at a glance but I haven't examined any of the three code bases closely.
2015-08-01T20:39:37Z dbohdan: Is CHICKEN much more popular than Bigloo and Gambit?
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2015-08-01T20:44:06Z zacts: dbohdan: I would say so, at least over Gambit. Bigloo I'm personally not too familiar with
2015-08-01T20:44:20Z zacts: (I think I've heard the name Bigloo, but I don't know it. It may be popular though)
2015-08-01T20:44:56Z zacts: dbohdan: if you want to compile scheme to C, I would personally probably go with chicken over anything else out there
2015-08-01T20:46:33Z wasamasa: dbohdan: CHICKEN comes with more libraries for it, gambit like it's better in the performance department
2015-08-01T20:46:57Z wasamasa: I mean, looks like
2015-08-01T20:47:16Z dbohdan: Besides the larger community/more libraries are there other reasons to prefer CHICKEN? I think I'll be okay with the performance of either.
2015-08-01T20:48:30Z zacts: I guess I should have posted a reason as to why I have this recommendation
2015-08-01T20:48:37Z zacts: sorry. :-)
2015-08-01T20:48:48Z wasamasa: tsk tsk
2015-08-01T20:48:59Z zacts: I myself get frustrated with recommendations without reasons for them
2015-08-01T20:50:03Z dbohdan: :-)
2015-08-01T20:50:36Z z0d: you are human. you can recommend anything because you like its color or smell better than others'
2015-08-01T20:50:52Z dbohdan: I found this performance comparison but it's outdated: http://www.iro.umontreal.ca/~gambit/bench.html
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2015-08-02T08:17:14Z zacts: I've got quite the entertaining yet rare scheme book
2015-08-02T08:19:18Z zacts: https://books.google.com/books/about/Exploring_Computer_Science_with_Scheme.html?id=GoXjBwAAQBAJ&source=kp_cover
2015-08-02T08:19:18Z rudybot: http://teensy.info/8v6kaHEXDw
2015-08-02T08:25:18Z z0d: wow. didn't know this book
2015-08-02T08:29:15Z zacts: z0d: yeah it's fun
2015-08-02T08:29:24Z zacts: but not really essential
2015-08-02T08:42:16Z taylanub: apparently Scheme and FP Workshop 2015 will present a paper "R7RS Considered Unifier of Previous Standards" by William Clinger, and also have "a report on The Revised 7 Report on the Algorithmic Language Scheme" by him
2015-08-02T08:43:23Z taylanub: I'm excited and really hope he succeeds in inspiring some trust in R7RS and the future of RnRS, especially for the implementors who go all meh on the RnRS
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2015-08-02T10:00:22Z wasamasa: zacts: and found an ebook!
2015-08-02T10:01:17Z wasamasa: zacts: thanks
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2015-08-02T10:04:31Z z0d: a bit pricey though
2015-08-02T10:04:34Z z0d: $70
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2015-08-02T10:12:28Z zacts: ah yeah
2015-08-02T10:12:39Z zacts: it is a really beginner level book though, but interesting nonetheless
2015-08-02T10:12:50Z z0d: $70 for the hardcover and "only" $67 for the Kindle edition. for real?
2015-08-02T10:13:36Z z0d: I never really understood how they price ebooks
2015-08-02T10:13:42Z XTL: sometimes they do that. It's insane.
2015-08-02T10:14:02Z z0d: I saw a lot of ebooks which had higher prices than their dead tree version
2015-08-02T10:15:01Z zacts: I would personally not pay more than $10 or $15 USD for the book
2015-08-02T10:15:07Z zacts: it's old-school, and not essential
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2015-08-02T16:39:47Z zacts: improvisational scheme hacking
2015-08-02T16:39:49Z zacts: \o/
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2015-08-02T18:26:23Z ecraven: https://www.nexoid.at/tmp/scheme-cairo.jpg
2015-08-02T18:26:33Z ecraven: what I've been playing around with :)
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2015-08-02T18:59:48Z zacts: oh wow that looks really neat ecraven
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2015-08-02T19:08:04Z wasamasa: cairo is pretty awesome
2015-08-02T19:08:43Z wasamasa: so awesome that the C++ consortium considered mechanically translating it to C++
2015-08-02T19:08:53Z wasamasa: because they've clearly got nothing else to do :P
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2015-08-02T20:23:56Z ecraven: zacts: it helps a lot that SLIME supports this, you just need to send a special message to make emacs display images :)
2015-08-02T20:24:12Z ecraven: wasamasa: it also has an API that is really easy to use with most FFIs, I guess
2015-08-02T20:24:30Z ecraven: compared to something like SFML, which uses struct returns and parameters and other things, which many FFIs don't support
2015-08-02T20:24:59Z wasamasa: so FFI is no panacea?
2015-08-02T20:25:01Z wasamasa: .___.
2015-08-02T20:25:53Z ecraven: at least the MIT/GNU Scheme FFI doesn't support struct types as parameters or return values :-/
2015-08-02T20:26:01Z ecraven: it's not great, but it works well so far
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2015-08-02T20:27:18Z jyc: struct types like struct values?
2015-08-02T20:28:03Z ecraven: yes, actual structs as parameters (as opposed to pointers to structs)
2015-08-02T20:28:21Z ecraven: technically, they are passed as pointers in C anyway, as far as I understand the ABI / calling convention
2015-08-02T20:28:36Z jyc: interesting
2015-08-02T20:28:47Z wasamasa: hmm
2015-08-02T20:28:54Z wasamasa: so that's why modules are still a thing
2015-08-02T20:28:55Z ecraven: as far as I know, structs are caller-allocated in C, and the callee just fills them in
2015-08-02T20:29:04Z ecraven: (even for returned structs)
2015-08-02T20:29:44Z ecraven: something like clasp but for lisp would be really interesting
2015-08-02T20:29:49Z ecraven: eh, for scheme, not CL, I meant
2015-08-02T20:30:15Z wasamasa: chicken comes close enough for me
2015-08-02T20:30:24Z wasamasa: minus the compiling times, but who would want to wait longer :P
2015-08-02T20:30:37Z ecraven: wasamasa: is there any c++ support in chicken?
2015-08-02T20:30:58Z wasamasa: ecraven: of course not
2015-08-02T20:31:14Z ecraven: wasamasa: well, that *is* the major selling point of clasp, I'd say :)
2015-08-02T20:32:25Z ecraven: wasamasa: can the chicken ffi do general callbacks of C into scheme? the cairo egg hasn't implemented the streaming methods I was interested in, so I didn't see there..
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2015-08-02T20:33:18Z wasamasa: ecraven: that should work
2015-08-02T20:34:14Z ecraven: I'm so used to using SLIME, I haven't tried other scheme systems.. perhaps I should have a look at chicken again
2015-08-02T20:34:20Z ecraven: it does have a lot of useful eggs :)
2015-08-02T20:35:41Z wasamasa: but don't ask me on the details
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2015-08-02T20:35:56Z wasamasa: I've avoided going into that part of it so far and use it for writing CLI utilities
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2015-08-02T21:27:09Z daviid: ecraven: guile-cairo maybe? don't
2015-08-02T21:27:11Z daviid: know
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2015-08-02T21:49:38Z pjb: ecraven: you can use pseudo-scheme on clasp.
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2015-08-03T00:18:47Z kephra dislikes FFI, as one has to wrap lots of code
2015-08-03T00:20:48Z kephra: I prefer languages that makes it easy to write native code to look like a normal language primitive
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2015-08-03T00:22:45Z kephra: perhaps i'm biased by playing around with clisp, gcl and opengl
2015-08-03T00:23:21Z kephra: i first tried the ffi approach, so lisp was calling opengl directly - but this became both ugly and slow
2015-08-03T00:24:11Z kephra: the better way was to raise the abstraction layer, so I had a mini opengl framework, that was accessing the gcl api and behaved like lisp
2015-08-03T00:25:04Z kephra: ffi might work better with modern opengl/es - e.g. webgl goes this way
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2015-08-03T00:36:30Z Riastradh: `make it easy to write native code to look like a normal language primitive'?
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2015-08-03T01:21:02Z kephra: e.g. ST/X (Smalltalk/X) does a good job here, where methods can be written both in st and C
2015-08-03T01:21:25Z kephra: I also like the Lua way - never missed a FFI there
2015-08-03T01:24:35Z Riastradh: Sounds like an FFI to me...what is the distinction you're drawing?
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2015-08-03T01:30:07Z kephra: a ffi tries to map C functions and data to a higher language - i still have to call same C functions, just in a more complicated way
2015-08-03T01:30:28Z kephra: i prefer to think a bit more top down
2015-08-03T01:31:41Z kephra: so I prefer a simple way to write primitives of the higher language
2015-08-03T01:32:45Z kephra: so C code (or preprocessor macros) has to care how to handle structures of the higher language, instead of the higher languages tries to wrap itself around C
2015-08-03T01:34:36Z Riastradh: Is this the Lua approach you're referring to?  http://luajit.org/ext_ffi.html  (Seems to be called `FFI' over there.)
2015-08-03T01:35:02Z kephra: nope - thats lua jit only
2015-08-03T01:35:41Z kephra: Riastradh, http://www.lua.org/manual/5.1/ <- I mean using the C API directly
2015-08-03T01:37:04Z kephra: well - l8r - i need a nap
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2015-08-03T06:59:27Z z0d: does anyone know the link to Felix's video on memory management in Scheme?
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2015-08-03T07:03:08Z z0d: found it: https://media.ccc.de/browse/conferences/froscon/2013/c116_lisp_-_2013-08-24_16:30_-_scheme_implementation_techniques_-_felix_-_1258.html#video
2015-08-03T07:03:08Z rudybot: http://teensy.info/YBBaDIjMsn
2015-08-03T07:07:06Z zacts: hello schemers
2015-08-03T07:07:59Z z0d: hi
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2015-08-03T08:07:03Z ecraven: hey :)
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2015-08-03T13:02:50Z crocket: I'm confused.
2015-08-03T13:03:45Z vraid: i'm a chronic sufferer
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2015-08-03T13:21:53Z crocket: Is R6RS significantly different from R7RS?
2015-08-03T13:22:53Z DGASAU: Yes.
2015-08-03T13:23:14Z DGASAU: Basically, all advances made in R6 were reverted.
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2015-08-03T13:28:27Z pjb: My understanding is that all advances made in R6 were _modularized_.
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2015-08-03T13:32:03Z DGASAU: Oh, really?
2015-08-03T13:32:35Z DGASAU: "Modularized" is basically R7RS euphemism for "removed."
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2015-08-03T13:33:25Z DGASAU: Whatever they call "modularized" hasn't been finished so far.
2015-08-03T13:33:27Z pjb: DGASAU: from r7rs-small, but my understanding is that they add them back in r7rs-big in a modular way.
2015-08-03T13:34:47Z DGASAU: I don't see what they have added back for two years already.
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2015-08-03T13:38:45Z DGASAU: Honestly, I don't see any sign of "adding" what they have "modularized" back in forseeable future.
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2015-08-03T13:45:29Z crocket: ok
2015-08-03T13:45:55Z crocket: If I start learning scheme now, which scheme should I learn? a scheme implementation that supports R7RS? or?
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2015-08-03T13:46:32Z DGASAU: Better go for Racket.
2015-08-03T13:46:41Z crocket: Why?
2015-08-03T13:46:47Z DGASAU: They have a lot of teaching materials.
2015-08-03T13:46:56Z crocket: Because Scheme is losing?
2015-08-03T13:47:15Z DGASAU: It is also implementation used in teaching.
2015-08-03T13:49:07Z DGASAU: Racket is basically R6RS with a lot of quite good libraries.
2015-08-03T13:49:22Z crocket: yes
2015-08-03T13:49:30Z crocket: I'll learn Racket through HtDP 2ed
2015-08-03T13:49:50Z crocket: But, I'm not sure if it is the go-to langauge for my needs.
2015-08-03T13:50:01Z DGASAU: If they ever add what they have "modularized" back, you'll have studied it already.
2015-08-03T13:50:22Z crocket: ???
2015-08-03T13:50:38Z DGASAU: If they have never do that, which is what to be expected, you'll have learned very good similar environment.
2015-08-03T13:50:39Z crocket: Anyway, Racket is heavily documented, which is good for learning.
2015-08-03T13:51:34Z DGASAU: You can take the harder way, if you wish, of course. :)
2015-08-03T13:51:43Z crocket: harder way?
2015-08-03T13:52:20Z DGASAU: Yes.
2015-08-03T13:52:32Z crocket: I don't know what you mean by harder way.
2015-08-03T13:53:09Z DGASAU: Going through the list of half-baked implementations of minimal language to pick something you can write in.
2015-08-03T13:53:39Z DGASAU: Believe me, implementing, say, HTTP yourself is just tiresome.
2015-08-03T13:53:44Z crocket: I'm not sure if Racket can start fast, run fast, and consume little memory.
2015-08-03T13:53:50Z DGASAU: And you'll have to implement a lot of such stuff.
2015-08-03T13:54:05Z DGASAU: Why do you care of startup time and memory consumption at this point?
2015-08-03T13:54:15Z crocket: For command line apps, they are important.
2015-08-03T13:54:40Z DGASAU: When you get to that point, you'll learn how to make it start fast.
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2015-08-03T13:54:51Z DGASAU: Memory consumption is not an issue at all.
2015-08-03T13:55:13Z crocket: Do you mean that memory is cheap or that memory consumption is not an issue for racket?
2015-08-03T13:55:21Z DGASAU: It is not an issue at all.
2015-08-03T13:55:24Z DGASAU: Scheme's operational model assumes GC.
2015-08-03T13:55:27Z DGASAU: Period.
2015-08-03T13:55:44Z crocket: I ran clojure, and a simple DDNS client consumes 128MB of RAM.
2015-08-03T13:56:05Z crocket: It consumes more than it actually needs due to JVM and clojure.
2015-08-03T13:56:29Z crocket: I'm sure non-JVM langauges can consume a lot less.
2015-08-03T13:57:07Z crocket: It takes 4 seconds to launch a simple DDNS client written in clojure.
2015-08-03T13:57:17Z DGASAU: You miss the point completely.
2015-08-03T13:57:22Z crocket: And, it takes 17 seconds to launch a clojure REPL.
2015-08-03T13:57:31Z DGASAU: So what??
2015-08-03T13:57:35Z crocket: DGASAU, You should explain more.
2015-08-03T13:57:59Z crocket: The presence of GC doesn't determine how much memory a given program will consume.
2015-08-03T13:58:00Z DGASAU: GC means that you trade space for time.
2015-08-03T13:58:18Z DGASAU: No, GC does determine higher memory consumption.
2015-08-03T13:58:21Z crocket: Clojure on JVM is greedy of RAM.
2015-08-03T13:58:44Z crocket: Can a simple DDNS client written in Racket consume less than 32MB?
2015-08-03T13:58:51Z DGASAU: Any Scheme implementation that doesn't optimize globally will do the same.
2015-08-03T13:59:11Z crocket: Well, OCaml also comes with GC, but it consumes little memory.
2015-08-03T13:59:18Z crocket: Go also consumes little memory.
2015-08-03T13:59:22Z DGASAU sighs.
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2015-08-03T13:59:38Z DGASAU: It all depends on how you setup GC.
2015-08-03T13:59:40Z crocket: gogs consumes 32MB, yet it serves a lot more than my simple DDNS client.
2015-08-03T14:00:09Z crocket: Well, I tried my best, and my clojure DDNS client couldn't consumes less than 100MB.
2015-08-03T14:00:26Z DGASAU: It may be that clojure does something stupid.
2015-08-03T14:00:29Z crocket: Clojurists say a given clojure program will need at least 128MB.
2015-08-03T14:01:13Z DGASAU: Basically, unless compiler has managed to cram your program into fixed space,
2015-08-03T14:01:17Z crocket: Anyway, GC can be quite lean in memory consumption.
2015-08-03T14:01:22Z DGASAU: you will trade space for time.
2015-08-03T14:01:33Z DGASAU: That's how GC works.
2015-08-03T14:01:42Z crocket: But, not every GC is same.
2015-08-03T14:02:04Z crocket: That doesn't tell me how much memory a given GC actually consumes.
2015-08-03T14:02:14Z DGASAU: Even if you have concurrent GC, it will depend on load.
2015-08-03T14:02:46Z DGASAU: Put higher load and you'll have higher memory consumption.
2015-08-03T14:02:59Z crocket: Clojure sacrifices a lot of RAM to gain java-like speed.
2015-08-03T14:03:15Z DGASAU: Can be.
2015-08-03T14:03:39Z crocket: But, a simple DDNS client doesn't need to be very fast.
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2015-08-03T14:03:52Z crocket: It just needs to send a query every 5 minutes.
2015-08-03T14:04:22Z crocket: Anyway, I think any scheme implementation would consumes a lot less than clojure.
2015-08-03T14:04:29Z DGASAU shrugs.
2015-08-03T14:04:36Z crocket: I guess
2015-08-03T14:05:04Z crocket: memory consumption matters for system administrators.
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2015-08-03T14:05:16Z DGASAU: Oh, please!
2015-08-03T14:05:17Z crocket: And, memory is not very cheap for poor people.
2015-08-03T14:05:24Z crocket: like me
2015-08-03T14:06:07Z crocket: Why do people think memory can be wasted?
2015-08-03T14:06:12Z crocket: That's a bad attitude
2015-08-03T14:06:27Z DGASAU: Because wasting memory is cheaper than wasting your personal or business time.
2015-08-03T14:06:32Z crocket: There needs to be some moderation.
2015-08-03T14:06:49Z crocket: OCaml doesn't sacrifice my time to be lean in memory consumption.
2015-08-03T14:07:06Z pjb: crocket: because I have 24 GB of RAM in my workstation, 8 GB in my laptop, and I can't remember a single time in the years since I had it that it was a problem.
2015-08-03T14:07:19Z crocket: Not everyone has 24GB of RAM.
2015-08-03T14:07:29Z pjb: Those who need it, should.
2015-08-03T14:07:30Z DGASAU: Alright, make it 4 GB like myself.
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2015-08-03T14:08:19Z DGASAU: If my tasks are not performance critical, I can throw more swap space in.
2015-08-03T14:08:29Z crocket: DGASAU, Often, wasting memory hurts.
2015-08-03T14:08:38Z DGASAU: No.
2015-08-03T14:08:47Z DGASAU: It is wasting time that hurts.
2015-08-03T14:08:51Z DGASAU: Wasting memory doesn't.
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2015-08-03T14:08:56Z crocket: It does
2015-08-03T14:09:11Z crocket: If swap is used, you'll start wasting time.
2015-08-03T14:09:20Z DGASAU: Yes, exactly.
2015-08-03T14:09:22Z crocket: So, wasting memory leads to wasting time.
2015-08-03T14:09:31Z DGASAU: When I perceive it a problem, I'll buy more memory.
2015-08-03T14:09:33Z crocket: They go hand in hand.
2015-08-03T14:10:06Z crocket: Or, you could write your program to consume less memory on behalf of users.
2015-08-03T14:10:19Z DGASAU: Buying more memory is going to be a lot cheaper than wasting my time on performance analysis.
2015-08-03T14:10:28Z pjb: Hey! I've got 2*16MB of swap, and they're full :-)
2015-08-03T14:10:34Z crocket: That can be the case.
2015-08-03T14:10:45Z DGASAU: I'm sure, I'm not going to rewrite Firefox.
2015-08-03T14:10:50Z DGASAU: Or LibreOffice.
2015-08-03T14:10:55Z DGASAU: Or Emacs.
2015-08-03T14:10:56Z pjb: Perhaps I should add some more swap.
2015-08-03T14:11:11Z crocket: If you want to just write some GUI apps, writing it in clojure is not a good idea.
2015-08-03T14:11:20Z DGASAU: These three are the top memory consumers for me.
2015-08-03T14:11:23Z crocket: It'll often run on laptops that have less than 4GB of RAM.
2015-08-03T14:11:33Z crocket: So, it hurts.
2015-08-03T14:11:40Z pjb: Nowadays, swap is used to throw away unused pages.  There are some pages in the kernel that cannot be deallocated, but that are never used.  Hence the use for a little swap.
2015-08-03T14:11:55Z pjb: But one could do without nowadays.
2015-08-03T14:11:56Z crocket: swap will often lead to stutters.
2015-08-03T14:12:13Z DGASAU: How severe is the problem?
2015-08-03T14:12:18Z crocket: very
2015-08-03T14:12:31Z crocket: It makes your PC sluggish.
2015-08-03T14:12:31Z DGASAU: Oh, really?
2015-08-03T14:12:34Z crocket: yes
2015-08-03T14:12:38Z crocket: I experienced it
2015-08-03T14:12:39Z DGASAU: If it is, BUY MORE RAM!
2015-08-03T14:12:47Z crocket: That's not always a solution
2015-08-03T14:12:51Z pjb: Besides that I have 6 GB of buffers and 12 GB cached.
2015-08-03T14:13:04Z crocket: People shouldn't be forced to use C to reduce memory consumption.
2015-08-03T14:13:34Z crocket: Anyway, I expect scheme implementations to be moderate in memory consumption.
2015-08-03T14:13:36Z DGASAU: I don't mind, if you learn SML and start using MLton.
2015-08-03T14:13:38Z crocket: compared to clojure.
2015-08-03T14:13:38Z pjb: foremost, if you use C to reduce meory consumption, you will write implementation specific C code, and it will be very bad.
2015-08-03T14:13:44Z DGASAU: Yet the setup cost is quite high.
2015-08-03T14:14:11Z DGASAU: pjb: there's one thing everyone forgets when doing such memory optimization. :)
2015-08-03T14:14:30Z pjb: Now, in lisp, we usually have an allocation unit of one word (in structures, objects, lists, etc), and you may have smaller allocation units in vectors (characters (24-bit, 32-bit?), bytes, bits).
2015-08-03T14:14:32Z DGASAU: pjb: code stability immediately decreases to zero due to unsafe language.
2015-08-03T14:14:33Z crocket: I think choosing a programming language is a good way to reduce memory consumption.
2015-08-03T14:14:44Z pjb: So you can write some code to pack and unpack your data.
2015-08-03T14:14:45Z DGASAU: Not at all.
2015-08-03T14:14:49Z crocket: So, for GUI apps, racket could be a good idea.
2015-08-03T14:14:57Z pjb: You can also write your data structures to remove the need for pointers.
2015-08-03T14:15:14Z crocket: The pointers are neede for writing OS.
2015-08-03T14:15:27Z pjb: You have a lot of options, but suddenly, you need the genericity provided by lisp: it would be catastrophic in C, in terms of development time and debugging.
2015-08-03T14:15:29Z DGASAU: Oh, really?
2015-08-03T14:15:41Z crocket: C is disaster.
2015-08-03T14:15:46Z pjb: total.
2015-08-03T14:15:54Z crocket: Mezzano would be superior to linux when it matures.
2015-08-03T14:16:01Z crocket: in theory
2015-08-03T14:16:11Z DGASAU: You need references, sure. You definitely don't need pointers to implement an OS.
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2015-08-03T14:16:49Z crocket: Guile is necessary in some programs such as TexMacs..
2015-08-03T14:16:55Z DGASAU: Anyway, good luck with your attitude.
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2015-08-03T14:17:24Z DGASAU: You'll really need a lot of luck to sustain. :)
2015-08-03T14:17:37Z crocket: DGASAU, What do you mean?
2015-08-03T14:18:39Z crocket: If you think my attitude is bad, I think your attitude wasn't good, either.
2015-08-03T14:18:56Z crocket: You constantly said "shrugs", "sighs", and so on.
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2015-08-03T14:22:05Z crocket: technomancy, I see you again.
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2015-08-03T14:23:42Z DGASAU: I mean that with your attitude to optimization, you'll either waste a lot of time, or you need a lot of luck to avoid such problems.
2015-08-03T14:23:57Z crocket: no
2015-08-03T14:24:05Z crocket: I see low-hanging fruits
2015-08-03T14:24:31Z crocket: By transitioning from clojure to OCaml or Racket, I can save a lot of memory easily for many kinds of programs.
2015-08-03T14:24:49Z crocket: It is not luck
2015-08-03T14:25:03Z crocket: It is not waste of time if I want to write certain kinds of programs.
2015-08-03T14:25:29Z crocket: If you want to write certain classes of programs, clojure may be bad.
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2015-08-03T14:26:02Z crocket: So, I will pick low-hanging fruits.
2015-08-03T14:26:15Z DGASAU: Sure.
2015-08-03T14:26:17Z DGASAU: "a lot of luck to avoid such problems."
2015-08-03T14:26:36Z DGASAU: It may be that clojure does something stupid.
2015-08-03T14:26:36Z crocket: It doesn't require a lot of luck as long as I see low-hanging fruits.
2015-08-03T14:27:02Z crocket: Rather, clojure doesn't even try to optimize memory consumption.
2015-08-03T14:27:06Z DGASAU: Yet in general Java is as fast as C++, if you know how to write in it.
2015-08-03T14:27:23Z DGASAU: At the same time Java provides a lot of safety and convenience.
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2015-08-03T14:34:47Z crocket: If I wanted an R7RS implementation for command line apps, simple general purpose programs, and web programs, which one is good?
2015-08-03T14:34:59Z crocket: For R6RS, there are Racket and chicken.
2015-08-03T14:35:30Z DGASAU: CHICKEN doesn't implements R6.
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2015-08-03T14:39:50Z crocket: DGASAU, I want you to stop disrupting the normal flow of discussions.
2015-08-03T14:42:03Z DGASAU: Note that I didn't disrupted it. :)
2015-08-03T14:42:24Z DGASAU: Whatever...
2015-08-03T14:44:02Z crocket: You did
2015-08-03T14:44:21Z DGASAU: Oh, really?
2015-08-03T14:44:28Z DGASAU: Perhaps you can elaborate where exactly.
2015-08-03T14:44:58Z crocket: about memory consumption, you said it didn't matter at all
2015-08-03T14:44:59Z crocket: It does
2015-08-03T14:45:09Z DGASAU: No, it doesn't.
2015-08-03T14:45:34Z crocket: I think you were pretending to believe that it doesn't so that you can provoke an angry discussion.
2015-08-03T14:45:46Z DGASAU: If it does for you, buy more RAM.
2015-08-03T14:45:54Z crocket: See?
2015-08-03T14:46:10Z crocket: You're ignoring other people.
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2015-08-03T14:46:18Z DGASAU: No, I don't.
2015-08-03T14:46:27Z DGASAU: I have seen all that many times.
2015-08-03T14:46:29Z crocket: Since your needs are satisifed by more RAM, you think other people should do it anyway.
2015-08-03T14:46:43Z DGASAU: Yes, at your level, you can easily buy more RAM.
2015-08-03T14:46:50Z DGASAU: It is a lot cheaper than optimizing for memory consumption.
2015-08-03T14:46:54Z vraid: DGASAU: losing battle..
2015-08-03T14:47:02Z taylanub: pjb: DGASAU: some advances made in R6RS were kept in R7RS-small, but sadly not all.  and they were already fairly modular in R6RS.  BTW ISTR crocket is a troll; apologies to crocket if I misremember.
2015-08-03T14:47:03Z crocket: As a developer, that's a bad attitude.
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2015-08-03T14:47:25Z crocket: A developer doesn't get to tell users to buy more RAMs.
2015-08-03T14:47:36Z crocket: This is a developer channel.
2015-08-03T14:47:55Z crocket: And, by saving RAMs, you can save a lot of money for the society.
2015-08-03T14:48:47Z DGASAU: This works only in planning economy.
2015-08-03T14:48:47Z crocket: For server clients who have millions of dollars to waste on memory, memory consumption is not a problem.
2015-08-03T14:48:58Z DGASAU: For clients it is the same.
2015-08-03T14:49:09Z crocket: You're now trolling
2015-08-03T14:49:48Z crocket: "A technologist developer who cares about saving RAM for the society" -> "a planning economy run by a developer"
2015-08-03T14:49:49Z DGASAU: Normal people either can ignore increased swap consumption, or they can pay some fairly small amount of money to add RAM.
2015-08-03T14:50:05Z taylanub: Trolling strategy #81731: Call the other side a troll.
2015-08-03T14:50:07Z crocket: Stop trolling, man.
2015-08-03T14:50:25Z DGASAU: taylanub: :D
2015-08-03T14:50:48Z crocket: DGASAU, I couldn't ignore swap consumption...
2015-08-03T14:51:01Z crocket: Swap consumption almost immediately leads to stutters.
2015-08-03T14:51:03Z DGASAU: Buy more RAM then.
2015-08-03T14:51:10Z crocket: I can't
2015-08-03T14:51:14Z crocket: I am not rich
2015-08-03T14:51:31Z crocket: Often, buying more RAM entails buying a new computer due to motherboard constraints.
2015-08-03T14:51:52Z DGASAU: If you know how to squeeze bits, you can earn enough to buy 128 G of RAM.
2015-08-03T14:52:08Z crocket: And, I know how to save memory easily.
2015-08-03T14:52:22Z crocket: By switching from clojure to OCaml or scheme, I can save memory.
2015-08-03T14:52:36Z crocket: But, I don't get to make money just because I program in scheme.
2015-08-03T14:52:56Z DGASAU: That works only for applications that are more or less student lab.
2015-08-03T14:53:39Z wasamasa: works best when both sides are trolling
2015-08-03T14:53:40Z crocket: The way you talk is confusing
2015-08-03T14:53:46Z crocket: wasamasa, You're trolling, too
2015-08-03T14:53:55Z crocket: wasamasa, I'm not trolling.
2015-08-03T14:54:00Z crocket: I'm just affected by trolls
2015-08-03T14:54:41Z crocket: DGASAU, You're a jerk.
2015-08-03T14:56:40Z crocket: "Scheme only works for student lab"
2015-08-03T14:57:45Z crocket: The vast majority of command line apps are better done in scheme than in clojure.
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2015-08-03T14:58:27Z crocket: It takes 2-3 seconds to launch a clojure app, and if you need to launch a command line app repeatedly, 2-3 seconds of startup time are huge bottleneck.
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2015-08-03T14:58:51Z crocket: Also, if a simple application consumes 128MB, you don't want to use it.
2015-08-03T14:59:06Z crocket: There are millions of laptop users who need to run simple applications.
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2015-08-03T14:59:15Z crocket: Ignore millions
2015-08-03T14:59:19Z crocket: or billions
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2015-08-03T15:05:11Z crocket: Facebook uses bash scripts and various command line apps....
2015-08-03T15:05:20Z crocket: It couldn't afford to use clojure for command line apps.
2015-08-03T15:05:31Z crocket: Call facebook a student lab
2015-08-03T15:06:00Z vraid: started by students, made for students
2015-08-03T15:06:03Z vraid: i'd call that a student lab
2015-08-03T15:06:34Z durm: I heard that the software for pacemakers was writen on scheme
2015-08-03T15:07:13Z crocket: And, scheme is used for life-saving appliances.
2015-08-03T15:07:49Z crocket: vraid, Virtually every software company depends on bash scripts and command line apps.
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2015-08-03T15:09:32Z wasamasa: I find it funny you mention facebook
2015-08-03T15:09:35Z wasamasa: https://github.com/facebook/buck
2015-08-03T15:09:42Z wasamasa: java buildtool written in java for the purpose of outperforming other java buildtools
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2015-08-03T15:12:40Z wasamasa: see also https://github.com/facebook/pfff for another tool written in a language crocket denounced as unusable for CLI applications
2015-08-03T15:13:34Z wasamasa: because, uh, nobody is using it
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2015-08-03T15:14:23Z crocket: wasamasa, I said OCaml was ok for command line apps.
2015-08-03T15:14:55Z crocket: And, that's meant to run for a long time.
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2015-08-03T15:18:54Z DGASAU: wasamasa: I guess, Karel Chapek's "Rules of dispute" are rarely known to teenagers today.
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2015-08-03T15:19:43Z wasamasa: DGASAU: they aren't even known to wikipedia
2015-08-03T15:21:00Z DGASAU: http://sumavak.blokuje.cz/dvanactero-figur-zapasu-perem
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2015-08-03T15:25:38Z DGASAU: wasamasa: sorry, I can't easily find English translation.
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2015-08-03T15:26:06Z DGASAU: I have found Russian and French ones.
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2015-08-03T15:30:35Z wasamasa: hmm
2015-08-03T15:30:39Z wasamasa: russian works for me
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2015-08-03T19:06:23Z kephra: DGASAU, was there a DDR translation? east european scifi was often great, imho
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2015-08-03T19:08:26Z ASau: kephra: German?
2015-08-03T19:08:37Z ASau: No idea. Quite likely.
2015-08-03T19:09:33Z ASau: Yeah. Basically, today some people are concerned of problems raised by, say, Beljaev in thirties.
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2015-08-03T19:10:35Z ASau: kephra: Theoretically, he died before the War, thus his works should be in public domain by now.
2015-08-03T19:11:01Z ASau: Consequently, you can check Project Gutenberg, if they have English translation or not.
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2015-08-03T19:13:56Z kephra: ASau, yes - and Czech novels had more often been translated to German then to English during cold war
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2015-08-04T08:18:32Z DGASAU: wasamasa: http://www.lib.ru/SOCFANT/CHAPEK/gazeta.txt then, if Russian does work for you.
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2015-08-04T08:51:22Z DGASAU: wasamasa: no idea, if it reached you.
2015-08-04T08:51:29Z DGASAU: wasamasa: if Russian is fine for you, it is http://www.lib.ru/SOCFANT/CHAPEK/gazeta.txt
2015-08-04T08:51:35Z wasamasa: DGASAU: thanks
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2015-08-04T13:55:42Z regreg: hello
2015-08-04T13:55:52Z regreg: anyone has succeeded running scsh recently?
2015-08-04T13:55:58Z regreg: i get a build failure
2015-08-04T13:57:17Z benaiah: regreg: I have no idea - how about asking on the relevant channel instead of randomly PMing people?
2015-08-04T13:58:22Z durm: =)
2015-08-04T13:58:24Z regreg: i don't recall PMing people
2015-08-04T13:58:25Z DGASAU: If you're trying to build it on 64-bit platform, it doesn't work OOB.
2015-08-04T13:58:25Z regreg: :)
2015-08-04T13:58:30Z regreg: ah
2015-08-04T13:58:34Z regreg: so that's the issue then
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2015-08-04T16:37:04Z ecraven: does anyone here know of statistics concerning the typical number of parameters to functions and values returned?
2015-08-04T16:37:32Z pjb: ecraven: exponential.
2015-08-04T16:39:32Z gnomon: pjb, logarithmic?
2015-08-04T16:39:51Z pjb: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exponential_distribution
2015-08-04T16:40:43Z pjb: Now, perhaps it's a little shifted, since I'd think there are less 0-ary functions than 1-ary functions, but otherwise, you will find mostly 1-ary, then 2-ary and then a few 3-ary and then very very few n-ary functions for n>3.
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2015-08-04T16:43:03Z mario-goulart: [citation needed]
2015-08-04T16:43:05Z mario-goulart: :-)
2015-08-04T16:44:46Z pjb: It's a law, but I don't remember it's name.
2015-08-04T16:44:58Z mario-goulart: power
2015-08-04T16:45:01Z pjb: That's how you detect fraud, made up number series.
2015-08-04T16:45:34Z pjb: People tend to give homogenous distributions of number starting with the various digits. But in the nature, most numbers start with 1 (whatever the base!).
2015-08-04T16:46:11Z gnomon: Benford's law.
2015-08-04T16:46:15Z pjb: Right!
2015-08-04T16:47:54Z pjb: So, in scheme and lisp, code is data, write a little program to do those statistics, my bet is that you will find out that benford's law applies on most sizeable bodies of code (both lexically and dynamically).
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2015-08-05T05:56:03Z ecraven: the major relevant architectures are x86 and arm these days, right?
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2015-08-05T06:33:37Z pjb: ppc is used on mainframes and spaceships.
2015-08-05T06:33:49Z pjb: mips is used in embedded devices too.
2015-08-05T06:34:34Z pjb: x86_64 is more relevant than x86, nowadays, I'd say.
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2015-08-05T08:02:07Z pjb: ecraven: there are some compatible fabs, I guess they still use sparcs in embedded stuff.
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2015-08-05T08:02:25Z pjb: There is much more processors in non-"computer" devices than in computers, so Intel is greatly minoritary.
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2015-08-05T08:17:48Z ecraven: indeed, but the smaller the processors get, the lower the chance they will be programmed in a "normal" high-level language, right?
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2015-08-05T08:47:02Z pjb: ecraven: embedded doesn't mean small.
2015-08-05T08:47:17Z pjb: It means not behind a computer terminal.
2015-08-05T08:48:24Z pjb: anything from washmachines to airplane autopilots, satellites, truck, cars, robots, cranes, fridges.
2015-08-05T08:49:07Z pjb: Notice that I don't say smartphone.  This doesn't exist. What we have are handcomputers, not smartphones.  I never use the phone feature, proportionnaly to my use of my handcomputer.
2015-08-05T08:49:51Z pjb: basically, embedded are turing machines.  computers are universal turing machines.
2015-08-05T08:50:05Z pjb: iOS might be considered embedded, android not :-)
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2015-08-05T08:52:18Z Steverman: how so
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2015-08-05T08:58:52Z ecraven: pjb: what are washing machines programmed in?
2015-08-05T08:58:58Z ecraven: I assumed low-level C or assembler :)
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2015-08-05T09:00:45Z pjb: ecraven: I would program mine in Common Lisp of course.
2015-08-05T09:00:53Z pjb: But yes, probably in C.
2015-08-05T09:01:25Z pjb: Steverman: because apple forbids programming on iOS, while there are IDEs on Android.
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2015-08-05T09:02:01Z pjb: You cannot write a program, compile it, and launch it on iOS. You cannot even design an app to let the users exchanges in-app programs!
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2015-08-05T09:02:58Z pjb: Therefore iOS devices are not computers, they're not universal turing machines.  They're just packed with a predefined (if numerous) set of turing machines.
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2015-08-05T09:03:34Z Steverman: oh
2015-08-05T09:04:04Z Steverman: even with jailbreak and such?
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2015-08-05T11:38:10Z BW^-: (let loop ()     (and bla bla (loop ))      , the loop invocation here is in the tail position right?
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2015-08-05T13:01:54Z pjdelport: BW^-: Nah, and is in the tail position.
2015-08-05T13:02:38Z pjdelport: (loop returns to and, which returns to the let block's context)
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2015-08-05T13:38:28Z foof: taylanub: chicken supports r7rs
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2015-08-05T14:10:53Z BW^-: pjdelport: so my code example would cause infinite stack growth?
2015-08-05T14:11:19Z BW^-: if so, couldn't an individual implementation "fix" this particular behavior?
2015-08-05T14:11:38Z BW^-: I mean, (and a b c) should technically expand to
2015-08-05T14:11:42Z BW^-: (if a (if b c #f #f))
2015-08-05T14:12:09Z pjdelport: There are some kinds of more general non-tail calls that can be converted to tail calls with accumulators
2015-08-05T14:12:14Z pjdelport: See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tail_call#Tail_recursion_modulo_cons and so on.
2015-08-05T14:13:00Z taylanub: foof: did they complete their support?  ISTR it was incomplete...
2015-08-05T14:13:31Z pjdelport: In theory you could maybe do something like that for your and example; but I doubt any implementation does that.
2015-08-05T14:13:48Z BW^-: pjdelport: okay. interesting.
2015-08-05T14:14:04Z pjdelport: You could rewrite it like that yourself, thuogh.
2015-08-05T14:14:06Z LeoNerd: Mmmm TCMC
2015-08-05T14:14:11Z pjdelport: though, even
2015-08-05T14:14:22Z taylanub: http://wiki.call-cc.org/eggref/4/r7rs seems to be under construction, but I guess it's not abandoned.  (two(?) years for r7rs-small is plenty though...)
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2015-08-05T14:15:33Z pjdelport: BW^-: Explicitly expanding it to ifs like that should work, yes. :)
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2015-08-05T14:34:55Z taylanub: Steverman: with jailbreak you get root access to your iOS, so it actually becomes your computer :)
2015-08-05T14:35:24Z Steverman: that's what I thought :)
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2015-08-05T14:35:42Z taylanub: though I wouldn't endorse even buying Apple hardware, let alone their proprietary software (even if jailbroken)
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2015-08-05T14:36:15Z taylanub: sadly, I still haven't found the energy to find another job than my iOS dev job :\  been 4 years now
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2015-08-05T14:37:09Z Steverman: become RMS
2015-08-05T14:42:00Z wasamasa: lol
2015-08-05T14:42:19Z wasamasa imagines someone younger with the RMS disk
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2015-08-05T18:30:54Z f-a: is there a htdp version in .epub format?
2015-08-05T18:30:58Z f-a: (or in single html file)
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2015-08-05T23:37:36Z f-a: http://paste.lisp.org/display/153098 <-- I get this error when using 'when'
2015-08-05T23:37:50Z f-a: seems like it is not defined, isn't it r5rs standard?
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2015-08-05T23:51:24Z evhan: f-a: Nope.
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2015-08-05T23:52:35Z f-a: oh, I see. Thanks
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2015-08-06T13:31:29Z foof: taylanub: works well enough for me, and you can install packages for it with snow-chibi
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2015-08-06T13:41:33Z foof: why are people saying gauche doesn't have macros/mv in r7rs mode?  they seem to work fine for me, and I have trouble comprehending how they could cease to work in r7rs, nothing fundamental about them changed.
2015-08-06T13:42:07Z foof: I could see it not having added the r7rs syntax-rules extensions.
2015-08-06T13:44:24Z taylanub: ok, will keep in mind that Chicken R7RS is mostly functional :)
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2015-08-07T03:53:27Z copycat: can anybody help me with this simple macro?
2015-08-07T03:53:28Z copycat: http://pasterack.org/pastes/45994
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2015-08-07T04:04:05Z Riastradh: copycat: What did you want to do with x in the macro?
2015-08-07T04:05:17Z copycat: (display 1) (display 2) (display 3)?
2015-08-07T04:05:51Z Riastradh: OK, but you didn't mention x in the macro, other than to name it as a parameter.
2015-08-07T04:06:13Z copycat: i don't know how to access it from (action ...)
2015-08-07T04:06:47Z copycat: i have an updated attempt using syntax->list to transform (action ...), but it isn't working too
2015-08-07T04:07:42Z Riastradh: No need to use syntax->list, nor even syntax-case and #' -- syntax-rules suffices for what I suspect you want.
2015-08-07T04:09:23Z copycat: okay
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2015-08-07T04:13:32Z copycat: i get an error "received value from syntax expander was not syntax"
2015-08-07T04:13:53Z copycat: what does that mean?
2015-08-07T04:14:04Z Riastradh: Forget the details of syntax-case for a moment -- what is it you want the expansion of the macro to look like?
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2015-08-07T04:15:12Z copycat: > (for x in '(1 2 3) (display x))
2015-08-07T04:15:12Z copycat: 123
2015-08-07T04:15:20Z copycat: > (for (x y) in '((a b) (A B) (1 2)) (display x) (display y))
2015-08-07T04:15:20Z copycat: abAB12
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2015-08-07T04:16:27Z jyc: for your second example
2015-08-07T04:16:30Z Riastradh: No, that's the effect you want from the code.  What Scheme code, without your `for' macro, do you want to replace your use of (for ...) by?
2015-08-07T04:16:40Z jyc: do you want some sort of pattern matching?
2015-08-07T04:16:49Z copycat: yes, but i thought i'll handle the first case first
2015-08-07T04:16:55Z copycat: then work on the second when i got it down
2015-08-07T04:17:25Z copycat: Riastradh: i guess i hadn't thought too much about that.. i thought i'll bang out something that works and refine it from there
2015-08-07T04:17:51Z Riastradh: copycat: What would you write instead of (for x in '(1 2 3) (display x)), if you didn't have `for'?
2015-08-07T04:19:03Z copycat: i would say (map display '(1 2 3)), but i'm getting some weird output
2015-08-07T04:19:10Z copycat: 123'(#<void> #<void> #<void>)
2015-08-07T04:20:28Z Riastradh: What if it had been (for x in '(1 2 3) (display x) (display x))?
2015-08-07T04:21:13Z copycat: then i'll use the macro equivalent of case-lambda i guess?
2015-08-07T04:21:58Z Riastradh: I mean: what would you write in the place of that, if you didn't have `for'?
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2015-08-07T04:22:27Z copycat: (map (lambda (x) (display x) (display x)) '(1 2 3))
2015-08-07T04:23:20Z Riastradh: OK.  (If you want to ignore the values, rather than accumulate a list of them, you can use for-each instead of map.)
2015-08-07T04:24:03Z Riastradh: So perhaps, generally, instead of (for <x> in <list> <body> ...), you might write (for-each (lambda (<x>) <body> ...) <list>)?
2015-08-07T04:25:43Z copycat: you mean, use for-each in my macro?
2015-08-07T04:25:53Z copycat: or not write a macro at all and use for-each?
2015-08-07T04:26:10Z Riastradh: I was just asking whether that general pattern is how you would replace your uses of `for', if you didn't have `for'.
2015-08-07T04:28:18Z copycat: oh
2015-08-07T04:28:31Z copycat: i wasn't really thinking about the general pattern of my for
2015-08-07T04:28:52Z copycat: this was really just a learning exercise so that i could get more comfortable with writing macros
2015-08-07T04:29:10Z copycat: and the syntax errors i get are hard to google for
2015-08-07T04:30:21Z copycat: i guess that once i'm familiar with the errors and the syntax structure of a macro, i would be able to adapt to whatever pattern i wanted
2015-08-07T04:30:31Z copycat: am i going about it the wrong way?
2015-08-07T04:31:06Z jyc: well
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2015-08-07T04:31:26Z jyc: having the pattern that you want your macro to expand to as Riastradh is suggesting
2015-08-07T04:31:36Z jyc: is the best way to go about writing the macro
2015-08-07T04:31:45Z jyc: otherwise how do you know what your macro is supposed to do?
2015-08-07T04:32:01Z jyc: it is the same as planning out anything beforehand
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2015-08-07T04:54:24Z Riastradh: copycat: So, step 1 of inventing a macro is deciding on how you want to express the meaning of the input language in Scheme -- that is, how to expand uses of your macro into Scheme-without-the-macro.  Step 2, in this case, is taking that pattern as I stated it, and copying & pasting it verbatim into syntax-rules!
2015-08-07T04:55:23Z Riastradh: rudybot: eval (begin (define-syntax for (syntax-rules (in) ((for <x> in <list> <body> ...) (for-each (lambda (<x>) <body> ...) <list>)))) (for x in '(1 2 3) (display " ") (display x)))
2015-08-07T04:55:24Z rudybot: Riastradh: your sandbox is ready
2015-08-07T04:55:24Z rudybot: Riastradh: ; stdout: " 1 2 3"
2015-08-07T04:56:01Z Riastradh: copycat: Now suppose instead of for-each you wanted to use an explicit loop, as it appeared in your original paste.  What should the general pattern be in that case?  How should x figure into it?
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2015-08-07T05:20:42Z copycat: Riastradh: is it a style rule to use <>?
2015-08-07T05:35:55Z Riastradh: Not really.  Some people do it.  You're welcome to use it if you like.
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2015-08-07T07:13:12Z pjb: It's a convention that comes from BNF.
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2015-08-07T07:44:32Z derp_t: Is it possible to learn how to program from the SICP *lectures* and MIT Scheme interpreter?
2015-08-07T07:44:56Z ecraven: derp_t: yes, but the book is online for free too
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2015-08-07T07:49:42Z wasamasa wonders what would make it impossible
2015-08-07T07:51:34Z derp_t: I've heard they were good good (the lectures) and that they used Scheme, but I didn't know you could actually learn programming from them.
2015-08-07T07:51:51Z derp_t: Like, do I even *have* to read the book? I hear the teacher in the lectures is 10/10.
2015-08-07T07:56:46Z wasamasa: the book is helpful to consult
2015-08-07T07:57:05Z pjb: derp_t: It's better if you read it, since it goes more in depth, and there are exercises.
2015-08-07T07:57:17Z pjb: You definitely will want to do the exercises, if you want to learn programming.
2015-08-07T07:57:19Z wasamasa: whether you *will* learn something from them is up to you
2015-08-07T07:57:27Z pjb: Programming is not learned passively, you have to program to learn it.
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2015-08-07T08:51:03Z taylanub likes to use <foo> in syntax-rules patterns/templates.  keeps it in your mind that *any* expression might be there, IOW that you're *not* working with identifiers as usual.
2015-08-07T08:52:27Z taylanub: I occasionally find myself making mistakes related to that even though I know just fine how syntax-rules works.  gotta make your code "tired-self" proof.
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2015-08-07T09:48:25Z f-a: http://paste.debian.net/plain/290003 <-- can somebody explain why is this not working?
2015-08-07T09:48:39Z f-a: I would expect a #t as that last answer
2015-08-07T09:49:11Z pjb: eqv? compares identity.
2015-08-07T09:49:22Z pjb: Notice that (eqv? '(1 2 1) '(1 2 1)) could return #f.
2015-08-07T09:49:41Z pjb: who knows what lrev does/
2015-08-07T09:49:43Z pjb: ?
2015-08-07T09:49:50Z f-a: well it does reverse a list
2015-08-07T09:50:06Z f-a: and in the case at hand, it is shown that
2015-08-07T09:50:17Z pjb: So it returns a new list? Why would you expect it to be identical, the very same, as the original list?
2015-08-07T09:50:20Z f-a: (lrev '(1 2 1)) => (1 2 1)
2015-08-07T09:50:46Z pjb: Try: (equal? '(1 2 1) (reverse '(1 2 1)))
2015-08-07T09:51:18Z f-a: thanks
2015-08-07T09:51:43Z pjb: the compiler is allowed to detect multiple occurences of quoted objects that are equal? and coalesce them into a single one, because it is assumed that quoted objects are immutable.
2015-08-07T09:52:41Z pjb: This is why you got  (eqv? '(1 2 1) '(1 2 1)) returning #t.  But often the interpreters, at the REPL, don't take the pain to do that, and you may get #f. Also, if both literals don't come from the same compilation unit, there's no chance they'll be eqv? even if they're equal?
2015-08-07T09:53:08Z f-a: I see, thanks for the explanation
2015-08-07T09:54:27Z pjb: f-a: about reverse! it could happen that it return the original pair.
2015-08-07T09:55:29Z pjb: ok, there's no reverse! in r5rs, but there's a nreverse in CL that is allowed to modify as well the car as the cdr of the cons cells.
2015-08-07T09:56:04Z pjb: So you could implement this: (define (reverse! list) (replace! list (reverse list)) list)
2015-08-07T09:57:00Z pjb: with (define (replace! a b) (if (pair? a) (begin (setcar! a (car b)) (replace! (cdr a) (cdr b)))))
2015-08-07T09:57:23Z pjb: and then, (let ((x (list 1 2 3))) (eqv? x (reverse! x))) would be #t.
2015-08-07T09:57:26Z DGASAU: I think SRFI-1 should have "reverse!" among others.
2015-08-07T09:57:41Z DGASAU: (Along with implementation.)
2015-08-07T09:57:46Z pjb: of course, you would implement reverse! more efficiently than calling reverse.
2015-08-07T09:58:32Z pjb: clisp implements nreverse by keeping the first and last cons cell in place (exchaning their CAR) and reversing the middle of the list (changing the CDR).  So if you have a reference to the first or to the last cons cell, you're still good after nreverse.
2015-08-07T09:59:19Z pjb: (it wouldn't be conforming to rely on it in your code, but it can be useful to have such a nreverse).
2015-08-07T10:00:30Z pjb:  (let ((x (list 1 2 3))) (reverse! x) x) --> (3 2 1)
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2015-08-07T10:30:54Z f-a: also, to whom it may concern, http://community.schemewiki.org/ seems down
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2015-08-07T14:24:09Z freehck: Hello, is there somebody who programs with Racket Scheme?
2015-08-07T14:24:19Z freehck: >>> I wanna compile an exe file with raco, but I have some additional collections imported via require into namespace and stored in the lib/ directory in the root of project.  How can I ask raco to look for them when I compile my program with "raco exe lib/utils/prog.ss"?
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2015-08-07T14:26:43Z f-a: freehck: you are probably better off /join #racket and ask there
2015-08-07T14:26:44Z mario-goulart: freehck: if nobody here provides an answer, maybe #racket can help.
2015-08-07T14:27:05Z f-a: (duplicate answer)
2015-08-07T14:27:09Z mario-goulart: :-)
2015-08-07T14:27:11Z f-a: :P
2015-08-07T14:27:17Z freehck: i've been waiting on racket for an answer for 30 minutes already. )
2015-08-07T14:27:22Z f-a: or as we say in forth, DUP
2015-08-07T14:27:26Z freehck: *on #racket
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2015-08-07T14:27:38Z mario-goulart: oh
2015-08-07T14:27:59Z f-a: freehck: wait a bit more, sometimes people are not on their keyboard. If that fails, fire in their mailing list/forum
2015-08-07T14:29:10Z freehck: What's a pity. A lot of people are waiting the fix of our broken build system. =/
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2015-08-07T14:34:43Z taylanub: freehck: just checking the obvious: did you glance at the raco manpage to see if it has some flags to add directories to the library search path?
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2015-08-07T14:37:01Z taylanub: freehck: for example 'raco exe foo.rkt --collects-path lib/'  (shot in the dark; I'm not a Racket user)
2015-08-07T14:37:34Z mario-goulart: *G
2015-08-07T14:37:43Z mario-goulart: oops
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2015-08-07T14:41:59Z freehck: taylanub: i tried this way.
2015-08-07T14:42:02Z freehck: http://hostcode.sourceforge.net/view/3207
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2015-08-07T20:16:57Z John[Lisbeth]: aloha
2015-08-07T20:20:52Z John[Lisbeth]: is this a very friendly channel?
2015-08-07T20:21:48Z f-a: quite
2015-08-07T20:21:54Z f-a: also, only one way to find out
2015-08-07T20:22:07Z John[Lisbeth]: basically
2015-08-07T20:22:13Z mario-goulart: just don't feed trolls. :-)
2015-08-07T20:22:17Z John[Lisbeth]: I have a dream of using pipes to solve everything
2015-08-07T20:22:25Z John[Lisbeth]: or some similar method of recursion
2015-08-07T20:23:18Z John[Lisbeth]: I tried figuring out what I wanted to do in bash for like two weeks. The people in #bash told me to try haskell. I tried haskell but it doesn't have a very strong shell
2015-08-07T20:25:08Z John[Lisbeth]: so now I am tryign to guage if schem is what I needs
2015-08-07T20:25:48Z f-a: only one way to find out!
2015-08-07T20:26:04Z John[Lisbeth]: And what way is that?
2015-08-07T20:28:34Z f-a: download a friendly scheme implementation and get all dirty with parentheses
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2015-08-07T20:30:37Z John[Lisbeth]: ok I have scheme in my other TT window
2015-08-07T20:30:46Z John[Lisbeth]: but the man pages are a little lacking
2015-08-07T20:31:23Z John[Lisbeth]: My situation is I am trying to live out of the shell as an experiment
2015-08-07T20:31:30Z John[Lisbeth]: so any guide I get sent I have to open in elinks
2015-08-07T20:31:35Z John[Lisbeth]: and type the url by hand
2015-08-07T20:33:48Z John[Lisbeth]: Every language has their own favorite book
2015-08-07T20:34:01Z John[Lisbeth]: for haskell it's learn you a haskell. For bash it's wooledge.
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2015-08-07T20:37:06Z f-a: in the shell or out of the shell?
2015-08-07T20:37:49Z John[Lisbeth]: in the shell for sure
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2015-08-07T20:38:54Z f-a: how to design programs ( http://www.ccs.neu.edu/home/matthias/HtDP2e/ ) is considered very good (and very long)
2015-08-07T20:39:22Z f-a: http://ds26gte.github.io/tyscheme/index-Z-H-1.html#node_toc_start this is what I used
2015-08-07T20:39:32Z f-a: a bit more short but not as thorough
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2015-08-07T20:43:10Z John[Lisbeth]: Alright I shall continue again on the morrow as my bedtime approaches
2015-08-07T20:43:13Z John[Lisbeth]: tally ho gentlemen
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2015-08-08T15:24:35Z septopus: reading through the little schemer (pg 41 if you have it on hand), I was wondering what the book means by argument's structure. Here's the relevant bit:
2015-08-08T15:24:37Z septopus: http://hastebin.com/ofasedoqok.dos
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2015-08-08T15:33:22Z littlebiglittle: septopus: the recursive definition of the argument as data structure
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2015-08-08T15:37:33Z septopus: can you elaborate?
2015-08-08T15:39:53Z septopus: littlebiglittle: is it separating the checking of "have we finished checking this list?" from the individual checking of the elements?
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2015-08-08T15:50:43Z xyh: septopus: I forgot the detail about the book. the general idea is that you define the data structure in a recursive way, and use recursive function to operate on it. how you write the function body should match the recursive definition of data structure.
2015-08-08T15:51:30Z xyh: I like that book very much :)
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2015-08-08T16:00:51Z septopus: xyh: at first I couldn't stand the format, but it grew on me quickly
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2015-08-08T16:04:40Z xyh: septopus: "grew on" ? you mean little by little you like it too   :)  ?
2015-08-08T16:06:31Z septopus: ha
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2015-08-08T16:23:15Z f-a: is `define` only allowed in top level definitions?
2015-08-08T16:25:22Z wasamasa: no
2015-08-08T16:25:33Z wasamasa: you can use it for local function definitions
2015-08-08T16:26:42Z f-a: ok
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2015-08-08T16:38:22Z John[Lisbeth]: http://ds26gte.github.io/tyscheme/index-Z-H-1-html#node_toc_start, was it?
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2015-08-08T16:40:47Z f-a: 404
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2015-08-08T16:46:15Z John[Lisbeth]: does anybody know the package name for mzscheme in Debian?
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2015-08-08T16:50:57Z f-a: John[Lisbeth]: it's called racket now iirc
2015-08-08T16:51:13Z f-a: racket - extensible programming language in the Scheme family
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2015-08-08T17:01:35Z John[Lisbeth]: oh wow
2015-08-08T17:01:37Z John[Lisbeth]: that's cool.
2015-08-08T17:01:59Z John[Lisbeth]: Did you know aptitude has minesweeper in it?
2015-08-08T17:02:46Z f-a: type: apt-cache search minesweeper
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2015-08-08T17:10:52Z John[Lisbeth]: no I mean aptitute has minesweeper built into the CLI
2015-08-08T17:11:03Z f-a: oh xD
2015-08-08T17:11:10Z John[Lisbeth]: you press ctrl + t then go down until you reach the minesweeper option
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2015-08-08T17:14:13Z f-a: http://paste.lisp.org/display/153268 <-- I am not sure why this counter works.
2015-08-08T17:14:23Z f-a: If I read it, it seems to me it should always return 1
2015-08-08T17:19:35Z ggole: f-a: it's the same next each time
2015-08-08T17:19:50Z John[Lisbeth]: I don't have iirc in my packages
2015-08-08T17:19:54Z John[Lisbeth]: I am on a raspberry pi though which is ARM
2015-08-08T17:21:07Z f-a: John[Lisbeth]: which debian
2015-08-08T17:21:40Z f-a: argh ggole , why is it so? I thought let stuff was 'temporary'
2015-08-08T17:23:03Z ggole: Scope and lifetime aren't the same thing in scheme.
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2015-08-08T17:27:05Z John[Lisbeth]: raspbian. It isn't an official build
2015-08-08T17:27:21Z f-a: then it's not debian
2015-08-08T17:27:23Z John[Lisbeth]: Close to debian spec in the repos.
2015-08-08T17:27:30Z f-a: ask in #raspbian
2015-08-08T17:28:05Z John[Lisbeth]: no it turns out racket is in my repos
2015-08-08T17:28:12Z libertytrader: Does anyone use scheme at work
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2015-08-08T17:32:42Z f-a: ggole: thanks. I am a bit confused on why next keeps living and, say 'v' (inside the lambda) does not. Is there a doc I can read about it? searching 'lifetime' on r7rs gave me nothing
2015-08-08T17:33:35Z ggole: Well, next stays alive because the lambda (which is reachable though a global name) refers to it.
2015-08-08T17:34:56Z ggole: Hmm, how to best explain this.
2015-08-08T17:37:27Z ggole: f-a: one way to think about it is to think about let as defining a new variable each time it is evaluated
2015-08-08T17:38:08Z ggole: Because this let is on the right hand of a define at top level, it happens just the once (when that define is evaluated).
2015-08-08T17:38:28Z ggole: Whereas the let inside the function is evaluated each time the function is called, perhaps many times.
2015-08-08T17:38:40Z f-a: ohhhhhh I seee now
2015-08-08T17:39:32Z ggole: So (let ((v ...)) (lambda ...)) is a lot like creating an object
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2015-08-08T17:48:52Z John[Lisbeth]: Holy crap you can do algebra in scheme?
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2015-08-08T17:58:31Z wasamasa: why shouldn't you be able to do that
2015-08-08T17:59:06Z f-a: thanks again ggole, quite clear now. How is this particular feature called?
2015-08-08T17:59:40Z f-a: I guess it is 'something binding'
2015-08-08T17:59:53Z f-a: but I don't know the something
2015-08-08T18:01:34Z ggole: Lexical binding
2015-08-08T18:01:46Z f-a: thanks
2015-08-08T18:02:00Z ggole: The term 'closure' is often used, too.
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2015-08-08T18:28:30Z hypermagic: hello my friends
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2015-08-08T21:44:13Z teurastaja: rudybot: (import (srfi 1))
2015-08-08T21:44:14Z rudybot: teurastaja: your sandbox is ready
2015-08-08T21:44:14Z rudybot: teurastaja: error: eval:1:0: import: misuse of unit keyword <NEWLINE>   in: (import (srfi 1))
2015-08-08T21:48:39Z amz3: what do rudybot can do ?
2015-08-08T21:48:43Z amz3: ,help rudybot
2015-08-08T21:48:55Z amz3: rudybot: help
2015-08-08T21:48:55Z rudybot: amz3: bug <more> ..., fom <more> ..., hopeless <more> ..., falsy <more> ..., bad-eval <more> ..., later "tell" <recipient> <message> ..., help [<what>], version, quote, source, url, seen <nick> <more> ..., where's <nick> <more> ..., uptime, t8 <from> <to> <text> ..., snotback, botsnack, init [<lang>], eval <expr> ..., give <to> <expr> ..., apropos <str> ..., desc <id>, doc <id>
2015-08-08T21:49:35Z amz3: rudybot: apropos define-syntax
2015-08-08T21:49:36Z rudybot: amz3: your sandbox is ready
2015-08-08T21:49:36Z rudybot: amz3: matches: define-syntax, define-syntax-rule, define-syntaxes.
2015-08-08T21:50:21Z amz3: rudybot: hopeless goops
2015-08-08T21:50:22Z rudybot: amz3: https://gist.github.com/samth/3083053
2015-08-08T21:50:28Z teurastaja: i was planning on asking for help on my function that returns a list of all permutations of a list but now im more confused look:
2015-08-08T21:50:45Z teurastaja: rudybot: (require srfi/1)
2015-08-08T21:50:45Z rudybot: teurastaja: Done.
2015-08-08T21:50:57Z teurastaja: rudybot: (define (permutations ls)
2015-08-08T21:50:57Z rudybot: teurastaja: The list of permutations of the empty word is the empty list.
2015-08-08T21:50:58Z teurastaja:   (if (null? ls) (list (list))
2015-08-08T21:51:00Z teurastaja:       (receive (x ls) (car+cdr ls)
2015-08-08T21:51:01Z teurastaja:         (map (lambda (ls) (cons x ls))
2015-08-08T21:51:03Z teurastaja:           (permutations ls)))))
2015-08-08T21:51:29Z teurastaja: rudybot: (permutations (list 1 2 3))
2015-08-08T21:51:29Z rudybot: teurastaja: ; Value: '((1 2 3) (2 1 3) (1 3 2) (3 1 2) (2 3 1) (3 2 1))
2015-08-08T21:51:36Z teurastaja: it works here???
2015-08-08T21:51:48Z teurastaja: but not in gauche
2015-08-08T21:51:49Z teurastaja: why?
2015-08-08T21:52:18Z amz3: dunno :)
2015-08-08T21:52:38Z teurastaja: anyone?
2015-08-08T21:54:36Z teurastaja: rudybot: (define anagram (list #\l #\i #\o #\n))
2015-08-08T21:54:37Z rudybot: teurastaja: Done.
2015-08-08T21:55:31Z teurastaja: (map list->string (permutations anagram))
2015-08-08T21:55:48Z teurastaja: rudybot: (map list->string (permutations anagram))
2015-08-08T21:55:48Z rudybot: teurastaja: ; Value: '("lion" "ilon" "loin" "olin" "ioln" "oiln" "lino" "ilno" "lnio" "nlio" "inlo" "nilo" "loni" "olni" "lnoi" "nloi" "onli" "noli" "ionl" "oinl" "inol" "niol" "onil" "noil")
2015-08-08T21:56:26Z teurastaja: alright :D
2015-08-08T21:56:37Z teurastaja: having fun here
2015-08-08T21:56:52Z amz3: :)
2015-08-08T21:56:59Z amz3: teurastaja: are you doing eulerproject?
2015-08-08T21:59:24Z teurastaja: nope. but i could launch a query against a dictionary and cheat at those lame saturday night TV shows where you call and give an answer to win
2015-08-08T22:00:43Z teurastaja: i could also do a trend analysis of when they block the lines but im not that much of a fan to do it
2015-08-08T22:00:44Z f-a: you win a doge
2015-08-08T22:01:12Z amz3: I'm not sure which games you are think about but nowdays intersting game involve drolling wikipedia with logic algorithm
2015-08-08T22:01:37Z amz3: and then you can win a "dodge"
2015-08-08T22:02:01Z amz3: but if you can do that, you don't need to play tv games anyway
2015-08-08T22:02:05Z teurastaja: wikipedia is lacking information about everything. the important details are left out
2015-08-08T22:02:18Z amz3: like what? the color of the bikeshed?
2015-08-08T22:02:49Z teurastaja: you guys better work on that or ill do a big permutation like this:
2015-08-08T22:03:10Z teurastaja: rudybot: (permutations (list 1 2 3 4 5))
2015-08-08T22:03:11Z rudybot: teurastaja: ; Value: '((1 2 3 4 5) (2 1 3 4 5) (1 3 2 4 5) (3 1 2 4 5) (2 3 1 4 5) (3 2 1 4 5) (1 2 4 3 5) (2 1 4 3 5) (1 4 2 3 5) (4 1 2 3 5) (2 4 1 3 5) (4 2 1 3 5) (1 3 4 2 5) (3 1 4 2 5) (1 4 3 2 5) (4 1 3 2 5) (3 4 1 2 5) (4 3 1 2 5) (2 3 4 1 5) (3 2 4 1 5) (2 4 3 1 5) (4 2 3 1 5) (3 4 2 1 5) (4 3 2 1 5) (1 2 3 5 4) (2 1 3 5 4) (1 3 2 5 4) (3 1 2 5 4) (2 3 1 5 4) (3 2 1 5 4) (1 2 5 3 4) (2 1 5 3 4) (1 5 2 3 4) (5 1 2 3 4
2015-08-08T22:03:27Z amz3: rudybot: (permutations (iota 7))
2015-08-08T22:03:27Z rudybot: amz3: error: iota: undefined; <NEWLINE>  cannot reference an identifier before its definition <NEWLINE>   in module: 'program
2015-08-08T22:03:30Z teurastaja: damn its truncated!
2015-08-08T22:04:08Z teurastaja: amz3: you need to import and define everything yourself
2015-08-08T22:04:19Z teurastaja: else we could alter each others code
2015-08-08T22:04:38Z teurastaja: it would be a flaw
2015-08-08T22:04:47Z teurastaja: dinner!
2015-08-08T22:04:51Z amz3: I don't have anything to type
2015-08-08T22:04:53Z amz3: I'm going to add few facts in concepet about the color of the bikeshed ;)
2015-08-08T22:05:05Z amz3: *conceptnet
2015-08-08T22:05:19Z amz3: thx for the tips
2015-08-08T22:05:20Z teurastaja: rudybot: (define anagram (list #\d #\i #\n #\n #\e #\r))
2015-08-08T22:05:21Z rudybot: teurastaja: Done.
2015-08-08T22:05:28Z amz3: meh
2015-08-08T22:05:28Z teurastaja: rudybot: (map list->string (permutations anagram))
2015-08-08T22:05:29Z rudybot: teurastaja: ; Value: '("dinner" "idnner" "dniner" "ndiner" "indner" "nidner" "dinner" "idnner" "dniner" "ndiner" "indner" "nidner" "dnnier" "ndnier" "dnnier" "ndnier" "nndier" "nndier" "innder" "ninder" "innder" "ninder" "nnider" "nnider" "dinenr" "idnenr" "dnienr" "ndienr" "indenr" "nidenr" "diennr" "idennr" "deinnr" "edinnr" "iednnr" "eidnnr" "dneinr" "ndeinr" "deninr" "edninr" "nedinr" "endinr" "inednr" "niednr" "iendnr" "
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2015-08-08T22:05:46Z amz3: do the (product a b)
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2015-08-08T22:37:30Z teurastaja: amz3: you said do the (product a b)?
2015-08-08T22:37:35Z teurastaja: what do you mean?
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2015-08-08T22:48:22Z amz3: it **kind of** look like permutation
2015-08-08T22:48:45Z amz3: for instance (product (list 1 2) (list 3 4))
2015-08-08T22:49:19Z amz3: will generate all possible way to combine the elements of the first list with the elements of the second list
2015-08-08T22:49:30Z amz3: *all possible pair
2015-08-08T22:50:02Z amz3: e.g. (1 3) (1 4) (2 3) (2 4)
2015-08-08T22:50:45Z amz3: their should be a game that use this procedure, but I can't think of one
2015-08-08T22:50:59Z amz3: poker use it, but it's too complicated for me to explain
2015-08-08T22:51:24Z turbofail: aka the cartesian product
2015-08-08T22:51:30Z amz3: yes
2015-08-08T22:59:50Z teurastaja: so product takes 2 lists?
2015-08-08T23:00:04Z amz3: yes
2015-08-08T23:00:10Z teurastaja: easy
2015-08-08T23:00:14Z amz3: ;)
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2015-08-08T23:02:01Z turbofail: you could make it take n lists too if you want
2015-08-08T23:02:58Z amz3: (product a b) is requires to make it n lists
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2015-08-08T23:03:28Z turbofail: not really, you could just define it to take n lists from the start
2015-08-08T23:03:47Z amz3: I don't know that one
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2015-08-08T23:04:29Z turbofail: http://paste.lisp.org/display/153280
2015-08-08T23:04:52Z teurastaja: (define (product xs ys)
2015-08-08T23:04:53Z teurastaja:   (map (lambda (x)
2015-08-08T23:04:55Z teurastaja:          (map (lambda (y)
2015-08-08T23:04:56Z teurastaja:                 (list x y)) ys)) xs))
2015-08-08T23:04:59Z teurastaja: like this?
2015-08-08T23:06:13Z turbofail: that's almost right except usually you want to append the toplevel map's results together
2015-08-08T23:07:07Z teurastaja: with concatenate?
2015-08-08T23:07:30Z turbofail: dunno, i usually just use (apply append ...)
2015-08-08T23:08:21Z teurastaja: rudybot: (require srfi/1)
2015-08-08T23:08:21Z rudybot: teurastaja: Done.
2015-08-08T23:08:31Z teurastaja: rudybot: (define (product xs ys)
2015-08-08T23:08:33Z rudybot: teurastaja: so something like (for/fold (stuff) ([x (in-list xs)] [y (in-list ys)] #:nest [each-xy (in-list zs)]) body)
2015-08-08T23:08:33Z teurastaja:   (concatenate
2015-08-08T23:08:34Z teurastaja:     (map (lambda (x)
2015-08-08T23:08:36Z teurastaja:            (map (lambda (y)
2015-08-08T23:08:37Z teurastaja:                   (list x y)) ys)) xs))
2015-08-08T23:08:50Z teurastaja: oops
2015-08-08T23:09:22Z teurastaja: rudybot: (define (product xs ys)
2015-08-08T23:09:22Z rudybot: teurastaja: 2 Ys, actually
2015-08-08T23:09:23Z teurastaja:   (concatenate
2015-08-08T23:09:25Z teurastaja:     (map (lambda (x)
2015-08-08T23:09:27Z teurastaja:            (map (lambda (y)
2015-08-08T23:09:28Z teurastaja:                   (list x y)) ys)) xs)))
2015-08-08T23:09:43Z turbofail calls the turing police on rudybot
2015-08-08T23:10:05Z teurastaja: (product (list 1 2) (list 3 4))
2015-08-08T23:10:15Z teurastaja: rudybot: (product (list 1 2) (list 3 4))
2015-08-08T23:10:15Z rudybot: teurastaja: error: product: undefined; <NEWLINE>  cannot reference an identifier before its definition <NEWLINE>   in module: 'program
2015-08-08T23:11:21Z teurastaja: nevermind i get the point gotta go
2015-08-08T23:11:27Z teurastaja: rudybot: (exit)
2015-08-08T23:11:28Z rudybot: teurastaja: error: evaluator: terminated (exited)
2015-08-08T23:11:52Z teurastaja: rudybot: (exit)
2015-08-08T23:11:52Z rudybot: teurastaja: your sandbox is ready
2015-08-08T23:11:52Z rudybot: teurastaja: error: evaluator: terminated (exited)
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2015-08-10T05:30:54Z ecraven: does anyone know whether the latest released sources of ikarus scheme are still around anywhere?
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2015-08-10T05:37:48Z ecraven: ah, vicare includes them as the first commit
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2015-08-10T12:20:57Z abbe: does anyone remember/know about this book which studies N scheme/lisp implementations? target audience is anyone who is interested in implementing lisp/scheme
2015-08-10T12:22:01Z ecraven: anything else you remember?
2015-08-10T12:22:02Z mario-goulart: Lisp in Small Pieces?
2015-08-10T12:22:14Z ecraven: les langages lisp in the original ;)
2015-08-10T12:23:41Z abbe: thanks mario-goulart, that was it. :)
2015-08-10T12:24:05Z mario-goulart: yw. :-)
2015-08-10T12:24:22Z abbe: I've a vacation coming up soon, so time to order it
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2015-08-10T13:58:40Z ecraven: I really liked it, great book!
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2015-08-10T18:12:58Z f-a: hello, I have some difficulties understanding why
2015-08-10T18:13:08Z f-a: (let ((a 1) (b 2)) `(,a ,@b)) => (1 . 2)
2015-08-10T18:13:22Z f-a: I would have expected it to evaluate to (1 2)
2015-08-10T18:13:28Z f-a: (hence, a list, not a cell)
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2015-08-10T18:22:47Z amz3: maybe because of ,@ I think it's called splice
2015-08-10T18:22:58Z amz3: f-a: ^
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2015-08-10T18:24:53Z f-a: mhhh, apparently when unquote-splice doesn't return a list it gets treated like the cdr of a cell, makes sense
2015-08-10T18:24:59Z f-a: thanks amz3
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2015-08-10T22:13:08Z wasamasa: did you know that elisp got letrec?
2015-08-10T22:13:21Z wasamasa: (defun my-factorial (n) (letrec ((fact (lambda (n acc) (if (zerop n) acc (funcall fact (1- n) (* acc n)))))) (funcall fact n 1)))
2015-08-10T22:13:23Z wasamasa: so pretty
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2015-08-11T03:20:55Z jusss: delay to evalation a function after 50 seconds ?
2015-08-11T03:20:58Z jusss: how
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2015-08-12T12:15:48Z taylanub: https://github.com/TaylanUB/scheme-generic-ref-set
2015-08-12T12:21:54Z taylanub: thinking of making an SRFI of this
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2015-08-12T12:26:43Z amz3: nice
2015-08-12T12:26:55Z amz3: taylanub: did you left out (set) on purpose?
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2015-08-12T12:27:30Z taylanub: amz3: ?
2015-08-12T12:27:58Z amz3: the procedure set for immutable operation, isn't how it called?
2015-08-12T12:28:35Z taylanub: I don't know anything about that
2015-08-12T12:29:20Z amz3: i doesn't exist yet
2015-08-12T12:29:24Z amz3: it*
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2015-08-12T12:30:04Z amz3: it would work in like (srfi srfi-9 gnu) set-field
2015-08-12T12:30:29Z amz3: really it's a naive question, I don't if immutable records are a good idea or not, but #sly use that
2015-08-12T12:30:30Z taylanub: oh, well this is just a generalization for all the *-ref and *-set! stuff, so that falls out of this project's scope
2015-08-12T12:31:01Z amz3: but why does it fall out of this project?
2015-08-12T12:32:18Z taylanub: because this is intended as an extension more or less directly on top R7RS.  if some immutable-data-structures operation like you mention gets commonplace in Scheme eventually, then it would get into the scope of this project too.
2015-08-12T12:33:23Z amz3: understood, thanks.
2015-08-12T12:33:27Z amz3: It's really nice, I like it
2015-08-12T12:33:44Z amz3: FWIW
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2015-08-12T12:33:55Z taylanub: thanks :)
2015-08-12T12:35:16Z amz3: using r6rs hashtables, there is a version using equal?
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2015-08-12T12:38:27Z csed: Wait. There's an r7rs.
2015-08-12T12:38:33Z csed: Huh.
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2015-08-12T12:39:35Z taylanub: amz3: the generic `make-hashtable` constructor takes an equality procedure and a hashing procedure
2015-08-12T12:42:05Z amz3: and alist are out of scope too?
2015-08-12T12:43:38Z taylanub: lists and alists are kinda nasty because it's difficult to detect them.  the list? predicate is linear-time instead of constant-time, and I'm not even aware of an alist? predicate so far, probably because it would be very unreliable.  any list of lists is technically an alist.
2015-08-12T12:44:09Z taylanub: people should probably use hashtables most of the timee.
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2015-08-12T13:10:52Z pjb: Only hash-tables are worse, time and space, for as much as 30-50 entries, and at least 5-6 entries, in most implementations, than a-lists.
2015-08-12T13:13:22Z davexunit: ^ this
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2015-08-12T13:14:40Z davexunit: do people complain about alists a lot just because pretty much every other language insists on hash tables for everything?
2015-08-12T13:14:50Z davexunit: alists have the additional advantage of being persistent.
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2015-08-12T13:19:19Z pjb: davexunit: yes, for this very reason.  And like their so called "Lists" that are arrays, I'm not even sure their maps are hash-tables.
2015-08-12T13:19:43Z pjb: Indeed, you can use a-lists in an immutable way.
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2015-08-12T13:20:57Z amz3: yes, alist are nice.
2015-08-12T13:21:10Z davexunit: and nowadays for larger maps we can use Clojure-style persistent hash maps
2015-08-12T13:21:31Z amz3: I'm wondering whether persistence is well supported by schme impl
2015-08-12T13:21:39Z davexunit: I don't reach for a hash table unless the thing I'm working on is inherently imperative
2015-08-12T13:23:41Z pjb: or big.
2015-08-12T13:24:04Z amz3: Clojure-style is [#:key 'value #:foo 'bar #:spam 'egg] ?
2015-08-12T13:24:20Z davexunit: amz3: I mean the underlying implementation
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2015-08-12T13:24:48Z davexunit: Clojure's hash map is persistent whilst maintaining good time complexity
2015-08-12T13:24:59Z davexunit: logarithmic lookup times instead of linear, for example.
2015-08-12T13:25:03Z amz3: ah, ok, yes clojurething
2015-08-12T13:25:07Z taylanub: alists per se are fine for some things.  not having a generic "dictionary" kind of type for all dictionary/mapping purposes and instead often jumping between variants, is a bit less fine.  and for general-purpose, hashtables win of course (primarily because of time complexity) if one is going to choose one and use it for everything.  most relevantly though, there's no way to integrate alists into
2015-08-12T13:25:07Z taylanub: my code because there's no alist? predicate.
2015-08-12T13:26:21Z davexunit: hash tables do not win for general purpose if you are using a functional style
2015-08-12T13:26:54Z amz3: yeah, but the matter we discuss is getting alist support in taylanub module
2015-08-12T13:26:59Z amz3: which is not possible
2015-08-12T13:27:11Z amz3: i mean, not possible in sane way, IIUC
2015-08-12T13:27:11Z pjb: taylanub: you can always wrap the various kinds of list into different structure type, if you want to tag them differently.
2015-08-12T13:27:19Z davexunit: ^ yeah this
2015-08-12T13:29:16Z pjb: and indeed, scheme and lisp are not: http://image.desk7.net/Animal%20Wallpapers/2885_1280x800.jpg ; they're more like:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QnKxbk3sNLg
2015-08-12T13:29:18Z amz3: I would rather drop list support and have alist support instead
2015-08-12T13:29:42Z pjb: ie. NOT batteries included.
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2015-08-12T13:32:02Z amz3: thx pjb for this moment of marvelous Thruth :p
2015-08-12T13:32:13Z davexunit isn't sold on generic set/ref operations
2015-08-12T13:32:25Z davexunit: this ain't OOP
2015-08-12T13:32:36Z davexunit: know thy data types
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2015-08-12T13:34:28Z taylanub: davexunit: well, an immutable hashtable API would win over an alist API
2015-08-12T13:34:42Z amz3: it's true that the *-ref -*set! methods are kind of documents hints for the type. But, I don't really care, I'm am convinced that this module is helpful
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2015-08-12T13:34:55Z amz3: +1 taylanub
2015-08-12T13:35:25Z amz3: having numerous procedures is what makes scheme painful
2015-08-12T13:36:07Z amz3: also, it's not oop, it's single dispatch
2015-08-12T13:36:21Z amz3: which oop use ..
2015-08-12T13:37:15Z taylanub: pjb: if I did the wrapping you mention for my library, that would mean I essentially invent a new "fundamental" type which I expect all Schemers to use in all cases they would normally use alists, for consistency.  that's simply not plausible.
2015-08-12T13:37:41Z amz3: numerous procedure: it's a strength but also a pain. IMO ref and set! are good additions, set UUIC will be nice to have
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2015-08-12T13:38:16Z amz3: taylanub: why not drop list procedure and consider all lists as alist?
2015-08-12T13:38:24Z amz3: s/procedure/support
2015-08-12T13:38:32Z taylanub: being batteries-included does not contradict with allowing closer control either.  nobody wants to deprecate vector-ref and hashtable-ref; just not force them on codebases where calls to them are ubiquitous and in performance-irrelevant contexts 99% of the time
2015-08-12T13:39:31Z taylanub: amz3: I don't support lists either ATM, and I think it's fine that way since list-set! is not really a thing under Schemers
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2015-08-12T13:41:03Z taylanub: davexunit: the intent is not to imitate OOP as much as just cut on amount of typing...
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2015-08-12T13:42:15Z taylanub: the dynamic dispatch in this case is tolerated, not celebrated, so to say :)
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2015-08-12T13:42:51Z amz3: Q: what's the point of match-lambda if dynamic dispatch is not celebrated?
2015-08-12T13:43:26Z amz3: (this is an honest question of me trying to grasp the spirit of scheme)
2015-08-12T13:43:37Z amz3: (might spirit :p)
2015-08-12T13:43:42Z taylanub: I'd say that's also a case where it's tolerated.  if match-lambda could statically know the record types it deals with, that'd be a plus I guess  (haven't used it for records much, or ever IIRC, so correct me if i'm wrong)
2015-08-12T13:44:18Z amz3: guile can match record using (ice-9 match) I think sly does it
2015-08-12T13:45:30Z amz3: UUIC records are much cheaper than a GOOPs objects, so it's still a win to be able to do dynamic dispatch
2015-08-12T13:45:39Z taylanub: ah, actually the pattern takes the name of the record-type it seems, so theoretically it can do its stuff statically (know at compile-time which exact field-accessor procedures to call)
2015-08-12T13:45:42Z amz3: IIUC
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2015-08-12T13:47:53Z taylanub: amz3: so to answer your question more correctly, I don't think there's dynamic type-based dispatching involved in 'match', other than of course determining which pattern matches (which is more like just type-based code-branching and not type-based operator-dispatching, I guess)
2015-08-12T13:49:11Z amz3: there is a difference between code and operator?
2015-08-12T13:51:05Z taylanub: I just mean, it's different "ideas" to do (cond ((number? foo) x) ((string? foo) y)), and to call (bar foo) where 'bar' is a generalized operator doing dynamic type-based dispatch
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2015-08-12T13:53:41Z taylanub: the former is just a piece of code that branches based on an attribute of some input it received (type of an object in this case), the latter encompasses the idea of bundling together types with specialized implementations of a generic operator and dispatching to the correct implementation at run-time
2015-08-12T13:56:21Z amz3: I may miss the required scheme/functional knowledge to understand why this is bad
2015-08-12T13:57:24Z taylanub: it's not necessarily bad.  it necessiates run-time overhead though, since Scheme doesn't have static types (if it did, the type-based dispatch could happen at compile-time)
2015-08-12T13:57:46Z taylanub: and oftentimes that's simply unnecessary, possibly even complicating things
2015-08-12T13:57:53Z amz3: I though that the spirit of scheme was to be minimal, sometime at the cost of hidden complexity. In this case it makes set!+ref makes it simpler to code *and* simpler to understand
2015-08-12T13:59:12Z amz3: I think all base procedure should do single dispatch. Doing (for-each proc som-hash-table) is much more natural than (hash-table-for-each proc some-hash-table)
2015-08-12T13:59:58Z amz3: but I biased coming from imperative/oop language
2015-08-12T14:06:08Z taylanub: minimalism is a red herring often.  rather than minimalism, one should aim for such coherent design that additional features simply become unnecessary because the coming-together of existing features covers the same use-case.  for example, some of the complex APIs in R6RS actually cleanly cover use-cases that just aren't nicely covered in other ways, and people are just scared by them purely
2015-08-12T14:06:09Z taylanub: because of the perceived complexity, IMO
2015-08-12T14:06:53Z f-a: taylanub: which use cases, as an example
2015-08-12T14:06:55Z taylanub: e.g. the record-type API of R6RS is actually really neat, except it should have gotten the improvements from SRFI-99 before being finalized
2015-08-12T14:07:04Z f-a: I see
2015-08-12T14:08:41Z amz3: I like srfi-99, I've bundle it for all my project so far
2015-08-12T14:09:06Z amz3: gossip question kind of. Does racket play a role in sfri and rnrs?
2015-08-12T14:10:13Z f-a: I think they were in r6rs committee
2015-08-12T14:10:28Z f-a: less involved in r7rs iirc
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2015-08-12T14:13:58Z amz3: I do not see a lot of difference between guile and racket. Except typed racket.
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2015-08-12T14:15:56Z jusss: how to use global variable in scheme ?
2015-08-12T14:16:16Z f-a: jusss: you mean (define x 10) ?
2015-08-12T14:16:26Z jusss: I mean it can be changed in any name space
2015-08-12T14:19:09Z jusss: f-a: yes
2015-08-12T14:19:48Z ski: to change it, you should use `set!'
2015-08-12T14:20:06Z jusss: f-a: I see a procedure called parallel-execute, where I can find it /
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2015-08-12T14:20:35Z jusss: (parallel-execute pro1 pro2)
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2015-08-12T14:22:37Z pjb: taylanub: introducing a list type to lisp or scheme would make them not lisp or scheme anymore.
2015-08-12T14:22:53Z pjb: Languages are strong in that they don't have pre-defined types and operators for.
2015-08-12T14:23:18Z pjb: C doesn't have pre-defined I/O , therefore C is strong on I/O. ("not", it's the libraries).
2015-08-12T14:23:46Z pjb: Lisp doesn't have pre-defined list (or a-list) type, therefore lisp is strong on list processing ("not", it's in the libraries).
2015-08-12T14:23:50Z pjb: and so on.
2015-08-12T14:24:40Z pjb: The reason is clear: if you don't have something, you must have meta-something, the means to define the something you want.  And then you can define any variant of that something and tune it to the optimum.
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2015-08-12T14:25:27Z pjb: Once upon a time, I defined a language with NO (pre-defined) type.  Even boolean wasn't pre-defined. There was a declaration to map a type to conditions (IF ? THEN ? ELSE ?).
2015-08-12T14:26:13Z pjb: Therefore it was very good there, and very portable: you could define any size for fixnums, the implementations would have to support it.
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2015-08-12T14:28:02Z ggole: You can have both easily enough.
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2015-08-12T14:28:28Z ggole: Just as scheme has predefined functions and a means for the programmer to define functions themselves.
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2015-08-12T14:36:28Z jusss: delay to eval somethings, use parallel-execute delay and sleep, it's so wonderful!
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2015-08-12T14:43:31Z taylanub: amoe: AFAIK Racket mostly went their own way after the R6RS "fiasco"  I do hope William Clinger's efforts to bring together R6RS and R7RS people will unify the community back somewhat.
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2015-08-13T12:34:03Z fifi-v: Hi, could someone please help me on SICP 2nd Edition Exercise 1.7? So I understand why `good-enough?` doesn't work well for very small numbers, but I can't figure out why it's "inadequate for very large numbers". I found an explanation online http://community.schemewiki.org/?sicp-ex-1.7, the example it gives is (sqrt 10000000000000), evaluating it does take endless time, but for a much larger number (sqrt
2015-08-13T12:34:03Z fifi-v: 1461501637330902918203684832716283019655932542977), it returns 1.2089258196146292e24 almost immediately.
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2015-08-13T12:54:42Z fifi-v: the exercise https://mitpress.mit.edu/sicp/full-text/book/book-Z-H-10.html#%_thm_1.7
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2015-08-13T13:03:17Z ggole: fifi-v: try it with a large number that is a float
2015-08-13T13:17:40Z fifi-v: ggole:thanks for your reply. I just tried (sqrt 1461501637330902918203684832716283019655932542977.12), it gives 1.2089258196146292e24 almost immediately.
2015-08-13T13:20:21Z ggole: Is it just that number, or does it return immediately for many large floats?
2015-08-13T13:25:22Z fifi-v: ggole: I tried a few, none of the calculations took long
2015-08-13T13:26:02Z ggole: You should be able to find one that doesn't terminate pretty easily
2015-08-13T13:26:32Z ggole: (test-sqrt 1000000000000000000000) does it for me
2015-08-13T13:26:46Z fifi-v: (sqrt 10000000000000)
2015-08-13T13:27:22Z ggole: (Actually, it doesn't seem to matter whether they are floats. So forget that part.)
2015-08-13T13:27:57Z fifi-v: one of solutions says: "the machine precision is unable to represent small differences between large numbers", but I don't quite get that
2015-08-13T13:28:54Z ggole: Try 1000000000000000000000000000000.0 in the repl
2015-08-13T13:29:01Z ggole: And then try (- 1000000000000000000000000000000.0 0.0001)
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2015-08-13T13:31:55Z fifi-v: 1000000000000000000000000000000.0 returns 1.0e30, which seems right
2015-08-13T13:32:15Z fifi-v: (- 1000000000000000000000000000000.0 0.0001) gives 1.0e30
2015-08-13T13:32:54Z fifi-v: but this is not "small differences between large numbers"?
2015-08-13T13:33:35Z ggole: Eh? 0.0001 is a (relatively) small difference, and 1000000000000000000000000000000.0 is a large number
2015-08-13T13:35:09Z fifi-v: yep, but how does that affect the program? (define (good-enough? guess x) (< (abs (- (square guess) x)) 0.001))
2015-08-13T13:40:06Z ggole: OK, how is good-enough? going to return true?
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2015-08-13T14:46:28Z taylanub: hm, I implemented generic set! that allows things like (set! table "key" value), but I realize one can also combine SRFI-17 with SRFI-105 to get (set! {table["key"]} value), or even, after making := a synonym to set!: {table["key"] := value}.
2015-08-13T14:48:44Z taylanub: I actually find (set! table "key" value) the nicest, but the other two require less additions to Scheme, just a good definition for $bracket-access$, and to (import (rename (only (scheme base) set!) (set! :=))).
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2015-08-13T14:58:57Z taylanub: probably, one doesn't want to see (set! {foo["key"]} x) or {foo["key"] := x} in the middle of usual Scheme code that doesn't otherwise use SRFI-105 much, so the visually cleaner variant would be preferred.  and where SRFI-105 is used heavily, one could additionally use the := trick.  based on that, I'm thinking that this generalized set! is worth an SRFI...
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2015-08-14T07:46:18Z taylanub: hum, the other day I said "list-set! is not really a thing under Schemers."  it actually is in the standards.  I figure it's not used very often...
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2015-08-14T07:48:53Z taylanub: I guess I'll support lists in my generalized set!, but use pair? for the predicate.  for maximum consistency I should actually support setting the car/cdr of a pair via something like (set! pair car foo), but given that's exactly the same amount of words as (set-car! pair foo), it doesn't matter.
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2015-08-14T07:55:42Z ecraven: taylanub: why not (set! (car pair) foo)?
2015-08-14T07:55:53Z ecraven: or even (set! (car (cdr (car pair))) foo) :p
2015-08-14T07:58:04Z ggole points at CL
2015-08-14T07:58:17Z pjb: because scheme doesn't have places.
2015-08-14T07:58:29Z pjb: But nothing prevents you to define defsetf and setf in scheme.
2015-08-14T07:58:45Z taylanub: I'm integrating my thing with SRFI-17 too, but it serves a different purpose.  for car/cdr, the difference is not apparent because car/cdr are such short procedure names.  the difference is apparent in: (set! (hashtable-ref table "key") value) vs. (set! table "key" value).  I just do dynamic dispatch to cut some typing, basically.
2015-08-14T07:59:02Z taylanub: pjb: yeah, SRFI-17 does it in a schemish way
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2015-08-14T08:44:22Z taylanub: SRFI-17 and 105 integration done: https://github.com/TaylanUB/scheme-generic-ref-set/
2015-08-14T08:44:36Z taylanub: (and actually made it a library now :P)
2015-08-14T08:45:25Z taylanub: can be used in Chibi if you pass "-A $larceny_sources/tools/R6RS" to Chibi, to make the (r6rs hashtables) library available (resides in Larceny's source tree but is an R7RS library)
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2015-08-14T15:43:05Z taylanub: I'll apply this as an SRFI soon, reviews welcome:  https://github.com/TaylanUB/scheme-generic-ref-set/
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2015-08-14T15:53:07Z amz3: taylanub: I read you proposition
2015-08-14T15:53:49Z amz3: I see that schemes and lisp have lists as primary datatype
2015-08-14T15:54:15Z amz3: I don't know whether set! and ref is useful for lists
2015-08-14T15:54:20Z amz3: since I never you lists
2015-08-14T15:54:30Z amz3: 1) is set! useful for lists?
2015-08-14T15:55:11Z amz3: actually that is all
2015-08-14T15:55:58Z amz3: I was going to bring back the hashmap vs alist debate saying that if set! is not useful for lists then it would be better to support alist
2015-08-14T15:56:38Z amz3: wat my text is very confusing/not properly organised, I hope you get the idea
2015-08-14T15:56:51Z amz3: also we already discussed the persistent thing
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2015-08-14T15:59:24Z ecraven: taylanub: do I understand correctly that you don't support generic nested access?
2015-08-14T16:00:18Z ecraven: (which is what would make this actually useful for me :)
2015-08-14T16:02:37Z taylanub: amz3: I could switch from assuming that a pair is the beginning of a list, to assuming it's the beginning of an alist...
2015-08-14T16:03:06Z taylanub: ecraven: see last part of rationale.  if you have a strong feeling that it's useful to add it to the spec, I might do so
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2015-08-14T16:04:31Z amz3: taylanub: it sound ugly, like others I more intersted in a persistent hashmap
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2015-08-14T16:05:02Z amz3: (more than alist support)
2015-08-14T16:05:18Z ecraven: taylanub: well, if I wanted to use something like this, I'd want it to have the same syntax as CL's setf.. (setf (person-name (event-people (car events))) "Gilbert"), not (set! person-name event-people car events "Gilbert") [which I'd deem rather unreadable]
2015-08-14T16:05:24Z taylanub: amz3: well I do support hashtables (r6rs)
2015-08-14T16:05:35Z taylanub: ecraven: that's SRFI-17 :)
2015-08-14T16:06:16Z ecraven: taylanub: does srfi-17 support nesting?
2015-08-14T16:06:26Z taylanub: hmm, good question.  I think not.
2015-08-14T16:06:46Z ecraven: and that is my point :) without nesting there is no reason at all why I wouldn't just use set-car! or whatever the setter is
2015-08-14T16:06:53Z taylanub: well in any case it's orthogonal to my proposal
2015-08-14T16:06:55Z ecraven: (well, maybe if I didn't actually *know* what to set)
2015-08-14T16:07:13Z ecraven: not a critique of your effort, just of limited generalized [:)] setters in general
2015-08-14T16:07:22Z taylanub: this is mainly for when you're sick of typing hashtable-ref, hashtable-set!, vector-ref, vector-set!, etc. all over your code
2015-08-14T16:07:33Z ecraven: you'd probably also have to make this set! a macro to retain performance
2015-08-14T16:08:02Z ecraven: taylanub: well, hashtable-ref should take a default argument, so I don't quite see how it can be unified with vector-ref or car
2015-08-14T16:08:21Z taylanub: absolute performance falls outside the scope of this SRFI.  the little bit of overhead should be irrelevant in most cases, and for the remaining cases one can just fall back to the typical procedures.
2015-08-14T16:08:52Z ecraven: taylanub: for this limited case, there's no performance problem. if you support nesting, I don't think you can implement it as anything but a macro anyway
2015-08-14T16:08:55Z taylanub: ecraven: ok, at this point I think you should finish reading the SRFI before I repeat everything in it :P  (no disrespect)
2015-08-14T16:09:12Z ecraven: hehe, you're probably right, sorry about that
2015-08-14T16:10:00Z ecraven: I'll comment more productively later
2015-08-14T16:11:00Z taylanub: ok, looking forward to it :)
2015-08-14T16:12:30Z ecraven: I wish I could work more with Scheme and less with PHP :)
2015-08-14T16:12:41Z ecraven: I've even pondered writing a Scheme -> PHP transpiler :D
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2015-08-14T17:09:12Z wasamasa: why
2015-08-14T17:09:36Z wasamasa: you know that kind of endeavor will teach you way more about PHP than you ever wanted to know
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2015-08-15T01:10:33Z jessup: I just started taking some of the CL example programs in Norvig's PAIP and writing them in scheme as a way to familiarize myself with LISPs
2015-08-15T01:11:15Z jessup: I'm curious to know what people thing about how CL style/idioms will translate to scheme
2015-08-15T01:11:35Z jessup: think*
2015-08-15T01:13:43Z jessup: for example
2015-08-15T01:16:21Z jessup: maybe I missed it, but scheme doesn't seem to have a function like CL's sublis
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2015-08-15T01:19:09Z jessup: If I write sublis in scheme, would that be an un-schemely way to do substitutions on a list?
2015-08-15T01:19:29Z jessup: or is that just how it goes
2015-08-15T01:20:30Z jessup: maybe there are better examples... just getting started
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2015-08-15T07:44:47Z wasamasa: just recurse your way out of it
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2015-08-15T09:29:10Z vjmp: what is meaning/intention of function names starting with percent sign (%), like (define (%foobar blah) ...)
2015-08-15T09:38:34Z evhan: vjmp: Sometimes that indicates "internal", "hidden", "not fit for consumption by the general public", etc.
2015-08-15T09:39:07Z vjmp: evhan: thank you
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2015-08-15T11:35:27Z pjb: jessup: yes, scheme (at least until r5rs) is quite minimalist the programming language.  When you want to write consequent programs, you have to re-implement a lot of utility functions.  sublis is a classic lisp function dating back from 1959.
2015-08-15T11:35:42Z pjb: jessup: or first search it in the srfi libraries.
2015-08-15T11:35:56Z pjb: where it might exist under a different name.
2015-08-15T11:36:52Z taylanub: jessup: use SRFI-1 when dealing with lists
2015-08-15T11:37:08Z taylanub: if your Scheme implementation doesn't support it, switch immediately
2015-08-15T11:38:01Z taylanub: it's true that the Scheme standards tend to be minimalistic and lack features, but usually whatever implementation you use will offer most things you need
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2015-08-15T12:21:07Z taylanub: another call for comments:  https://github.com/taylanub/scheme-generic-ref-set
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2015-08-15T13:51:42Z jessup: pjb: thanks
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2015-08-15T17:59:24Z ASau: jessup: note that "sublis" has 6 letters in the name, this clearly points you to the time of early Fortran implementations.
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2015-08-15T18:01:31Z ggole: With 6-bit characters and 36-bit words
2015-08-15T18:01:55Z ASau: Sure.
2015-08-15T18:02:07Z ASau: Alternative approach gives you implementation based on RADIX-50, but I don't think it is more pertinent, though.
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2015-08-15T19:02:57Z pjb: ASau: not Fortran, LISP.  In LISP 1.5, symbol names (no strings then), were stored as a list of words containing six 6-bit characters (filled with #o77 if less than six character in the last word).
2015-08-15T19:03:46Z pjb: so, going over 6 characters would cost two words (one for the new cons cell, and one for the character word).
2015-08-15T19:08:30Z ASau: The effect is the same.
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2015-08-15T21:49:23Z ASau: taylanub: "ref" carries wrong connotation of providing a reference.
2015-08-15T21:49:32Z ASau: taylanub: IMO, "elt" would be better.
2015-08-15T21:50:14Z ASau: (I guess, that you cannot use "get" for some other reason.)
2015-08-15T21:51:04Z taylanub: "ref" is an established abbreviation for referencing into data structures: list-ref, vector-ref, hashtable-ref, bytevector-*-ref, ...
2015-08-15T21:51:29Z taylanub: indeed this generic ref dispatches to exactly these procedures
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2015-08-15T21:55:07Z taylanub: ASau: the SRFI is up now by the way: http://srfi.schemers.org/srfi-123/  feel free to post in its discussion mailing list
2015-08-15T21:55:24Z taylanub: same encouragement goes to everyone else
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2015-08-16T02:25:56Z lf94: Does scheme have something similar to map in Haskell?
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2015-08-16T02:40:04Z ski: rudybot: eval (map list '(0 1) '(2 3) '(4 5))
2015-08-16T02:40:04Z rudybot: ski: ; Value: '((0 2 4) (1 3 5))
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2015-08-16T02:41:12Z lf94: What are the ' for
2015-08-16T02:41:49Z ski: quoted lists
2015-08-16T02:42:17Z ski: rudybot: eval (map list (list 0 1) (list 2 3) (list 4 5))
2015-08-16T02:42:17Z rudybot: ski: ; Value: '((0 2 4) (1 3 5))
2015-08-16T02:42:34Z ski: rudybot: eval (list (list 0 2 4) (list 1 3 5))
2015-08-16T02:42:34Z rudybot: ski: ; Value: '((0 2 4) (1 3 5))
2015-08-16T02:45:06Z lf94: Oh, I thought you didn't need 'list' or a quote
2015-08-16T02:45:16Z lf94: At least the scheme on my smartphone didn't :>
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2015-08-16T02:50:00Z ski: rudybot: eval (0 1)
2015-08-16T02:50:00Z rudybot: ski: error: application: not a procedure; <NEWLINE>  expected a procedure that can be applied to arguments <NEWLINE>   given: 0 <NEWLINE>   arguments...: <NEWLINE>    1
2015-08-16T02:50:07Z ski: rudybot: eval (list 0 1)
2015-08-16T02:50:07Z rudybot: ski: ; Value: '(0 1)
2015-08-16T02:50:47Z ski: rudybot: eval (cons 0 (cons 1 empty))
2015-08-16T02:50:48Z rudybot: ski: ; Value: '(0 1)
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2015-08-16T03:01:12Z ASau: lf94: try reading where "map" has come to haskell from.
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2015-08-16T03:37:41Z ski: rudybot: eval (require math/number-theory)
2015-08-16T03:37:41Z rudybot: ski: Done.
2015-08-16T03:38:03Z ski: eval (integer-root/remainder 67 2)
2015-08-16T03:38:11Z ski: rudybot: eval (integer-root/remainder 67 2)
2015-08-16T03:38:12Z rudybot: ski: ; Value: 8
2015-08-16T03:38:13Z rudybot: ski: ; Value#2: 3
2015-08-16T03:38:15Z ski: rudybot: eval (integer-root/remainder 67 3)
2015-08-16T03:38:16Z rudybot: ski: ; Value: 4
2015-08-16T03:38:17Z rudybot: ski: ; Value#2: 3
2015-08-16T03:38:29Z ski: rudybot: eval (mappy integer-root/remainder (list 16 32 64 128) (list 2 3 4 5))
2015-08-16T03:38:29Z rudybot: ski: ; Value: '(4 3 2 2)
2015-08-16T03:38:30Z rudybot: ski: ; Value#2: '(0 5 48 96)
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2015-08-16T12:19:46Z kronole: Will reading SICP as a beginner give me an edge over programmers who haven't read it?
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2015-08-16T13:19:10Z pjb: knonole: definitely.  As well as having some patience.
2015-08-16T13:19:19Z taylanub: ecraven: I think nested (set! (foo (bar baz)) quux) is supported "automatically" since it turns into ((setter foo) (bar baz) quux), e.g. your example (set! (person-name (event-people (car events))) "Gilbert") turns into ((setter person-name) (event-people (car events)) "Gilbert") i.e. (set-person-name! (...) "Gilbert")
2015-08-16T13:19:27Z taylanub: pjb: they parted
2015-08-16T13:20:03Z taylanub: ecraven: (speaking of SRFI-17, not my SRFI .. SRFI-123 now by the way)
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2015-08-16T13:32:26Z kraehe: taylanub, still the question of nesting? e.g.
2015-08-16T13:33:51Z kraehe: (define foo '((2 3) (5 7) (11 13))) (set! (cdr (assov 5 foo) 'bar) (write foo) -> ((2 3) (5 bar) (11 13))
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2015-08-16T14:06:16Z taylanub: kraehe: yup, that should work fine with SRFI-17
2015-08-16T14:07:29Z taylanub: (set! (cdr (assoc 5 foo) 'bar))  =  (set-cdr! (assoc 5 foo) 'bar)
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2015-08-16T14:11:43Z r2q2: Hello everybody!
2015-08-16T14:12:33Z r2q2: Riastradh: ping
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2015-08-16T14:19:59Z kraehe: the question, if one really needs this kind of syntactical sugar?
2015-08-16T14:20:21Z r2q2: !logs
2015-08-16T14:20:31Z pjb: kraehe: Common Lispers :-)
2015-08-16T14:20:38Z kraehe: pjb, true
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2015-08-16T14:23:27Z r2q2: Has anyone here worked through functional differential geometry by sussman?
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2015-08-16T14:24:58Z taylanub: kraehe: someone writing lots of code where such operations are ubiquitous.  in some code-bases they are...
2015-08-16T14:25:06Z r2q2: http://groups.csail.mit.edu/mac/users/gjs/6946/calculus-indexed.pdf
2015-08-16T14:25:11Z taylanub: because typing hashtable-ref/hashtable-set and such all the time is annoying as hell
2015-08-16T14:32:51Z kraehe: r2q2, the code is odd - first I can not find the definition of up, 2nd: (define ((Gamma w) t) (up t (w t) ((D w) t)))
2015-08-16T14:34:07Z Riastradh: r2q2: pong
2015-08-16T14:34:54Z Riastradh: kraehe: He uses the language he built for scmutils: http://groups.csail.mit.edu/mac/users/gjs/6946/linux-install.htm
2015-08-16T14:35:52Z Riastradh: A manual for it: http://groups.csail.mit.edu/mac/users/gjs/6946/refman.pdf
2015-08-16T14:36:41Z Riastradh: up, in this case, makes an `up' tuple, which is like a column vector -- as opposed to down vectors, which are like row vectors.
2015-08-16T14:37:01Z Riastradh: I say `like' because they can be nested arbitrarily -- you're not limited to making a matrix that has one view as a row of columns and another view as a column of rows.
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2015-08-16T14:41:02Z Riastradh: s/down vector/down tuple/1
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2015-08-16T14:50:42Z wasamasa: ugh, I don't get scheme's port system at all
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2015-08-16T14:55:19Z r2q2: Riastradh: How have you been doing?
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2015-08-16T15:03:53Z Riastradh: Been doing OK.  Not much Scheme lately.  How are you?
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2015-08-16T15:15:42Z r2q2: Riastradh: Got a shitty job programming java. I'm planning my escape. My uncle has Alzhemiers. My bipolar disorder is acting up but I think its gone for now. I am trying to do machine learning using knot theory with my old professor from UIC. I believe I have to go back to school for my PhD in Mathematics.
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2015-08-16T15:17:08Z spew: r2q2: that's funny. I got a shitty job programming java and am planning my escape. Though my idea is to go to UIC to get a master's in computer science.
2015-08-16T15:17:38Z r2q2: spew: Do machine learning its the lowest hanging fruit I can think of.
2015-08-16T15:18:03Z r2q2: spew: Attempt to automate your shitty job using machine leaning if it is possible.
2015-08-16T15:19:38Z r2q2: spew: Like if it requires a smiling face don't do it.
2015-08-16T15:19:51Z spew: I just want a job writing c working on the lowest level software possible
2015-08-16T15:20:05Z r2q2: spew: oh get a trading job or write bitcoin crap
2015-08-16T15:20:19Z spew: there are so many quant jobs in chicago
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2015-08-16T16:13:29Z taylanub has a shitty job programming ObjC but might actually escape to a Lisp job soon, if things go well
2015-08-16T16:14:28Z taylanub: the only thing missing would be free software, but if I'm going to wish for a job of writing free software lisp code, I might as well wish for a rainbow-colored pony pooping gold
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2015-08-16T16:17:50Z kraehe: open source, closed shop had been my business model for more then 30 years
2015-08-16T16:18:04Z kraehe: i wont work on closed source software
2015-08-16T16:18:58Z kraehe: *shameless plug* goal of #o3db is that thousands of people earn money coding Scheme - and I get a 10% share ;-)
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2015-08-16T16:58:57Z ASau: kraehe: yes, one does need such a syntax.
2015-08-16T16:59:45Z ASau: Otherwise you have to write "hash-map-value-set!" and similar outrage all the time,
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2015-08-16T18:15:30Z ecraven: taylanub: I think the setter is supposed to set the *innermost* thing, not the outermost one
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2015-08-16T19:35:46Z taylanub: ecraven: uhm, sure about that?  I'd find that quite counter-intuitive.  I believe it's supposed to set what would otherwise be returned
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2015-08-16T19:38:10Z taylanub: so if (person-name (car (event-people event))) returns "Mike", then (setf (person-name (car (event-people event))) "Michael") will set it to "Michael".
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2015-08-16T20:10:04Z ski: .. so conceptually `(person-name ...)' returns a mutable location ("rvalue") (which would in an "lvalue" expression context be dereferenced to get the current value, but in the `(setf [...] "Michael")' context the value at the location would be changed to being `"Michael"')
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2015-08-16T20:15:03Z taylanub: ski: you mixed up rvalue and lvalue I believe
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2015-08-16T20:25:37Z ski: er, so i did
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2015-08-16T20:51:09Z ecraven: taylanub: ah, sorry, you're obviously right, not sure how I what I wrote made sense in my mind
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2015-08-16T21:25:45Z taylanub: happens :)
2015-08-16T21:27:46Z taylanub: Riastradh: BTW would love hearing your opinion on this as well:  (set! object field value), or (set! (~ object field) value) where ~ is a getter-with-setter?  (in both cases there's ultimately dynamic dispatch to the actual setter; the only question is syntax.)
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2015-08-16T21:29:25Z Riastradh: I don't usually use such things.  Mild preference for the lvalue-style notation.
2015-08-16T21:32:10Z taylanub: ok, thanks :)  several others also preferred the lvalue variant so I'll probably remove the other option.  SRFI-123 by the way.  (up-to-date version: https://github.com/TaylanUB/srfi-123/blob/master/srfi-123.md )
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2015-08-16T23:54:58Z r2q2: Man I got into an argument on cstheory with peter shor and lost :(
2015-08-16T23:55:38Z f-a: next best thing after gambling and winning is gambling and losing, they say
2015-08-16T23:56:12Z r2q2: f-a: Whatever I rewrote my argument.
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2015-08-17T11:57:09Z taylanub: http://clochure.org/
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2015-08-17T11:58:14Z taylanub: as a professional Objective-C developer suffering from the square brackets (because there's no paredit in Xcode, and the way the brackets are used is worse than in lisp), I'm quite amused
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2015-08-17T12:13:27Z wasamasa: did you just write "worse than in lisp"
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2015-08-17T12:22:14Z taylanub: wasamasa: instead of (foo (bar (baz quux))) you have e.g. [[[foo bar] baz] quux]
2015-08-17T12:22:53Z wasamasa: taylanub: this sounds like you're suggesting bracket usage in lisp is terrible
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2015-08-17T12:26:11Z pjb: taylanub: why do you use Xcode to edit? Edit with emacs!  You can even configure Xcode to call out to emacs.
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2015-08-17T12:38:14Z taylanub: pjb: difficult.  no good autocomplete and many other things.
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2015-08-17T14:46:34Z taylanub: :)
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2015-08-17T15:43:05Z Riastradh: babaganoush?
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2015-08-17T16:09:27Z pflanze: Hello. Is there a function that takes a list of 2*n items and returns a list of n pairs (alist) holding the first and second of each pair?
2015-08-17T16:10:08Z pflanze: I mean, is there a *standard* function for that (srfi, or common name for that)?
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2015-08-17T16:32:59Z jcowan: pflanze: I know of no standard, but I would call it plist->alist
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2015-08-17T16:44:55Z pflanze: I've called it list->alist now.
2015-08-17T16:45:09Z pflanze: plist, pair list, fair enough.
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2015-08-17T17:09:24Z jcowan: pflanze: Property list, actually: see <https://www.cs.cmu.edu/Groups/AI/html/cltl/clm/node108.html>
2015-08-17T17:12:58Z pflanze: Aha, thanks.
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2015-08-18T09:44:08Z russellw: Is there a command line indent/format/pretty print program available for scheme? That is, a command line program that will take some scheme files and format the code in a standardized way?
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2015-08-18T09:45:29Z taylanub: russellw: none that I know of but one could bend Emacs to do it probably...
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2015-08-18T09:51:27Z rm-r: scheme code file
2015-08-18T09:51:31Z rm-r: have .scheme extension
2015-08-18T09:51:31Z rm-r: ?
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2015-08-18T09:54:28Z russellw: I think .scm is more common?
2015-08-18T09:54:47Z rm-r: but is sometimes .scheme too
2015-08-18T09:54:48Z rm-r: ?
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2015-08-18T09:55:50Z evhan: rm-r: Someone somewhere probably uses .scheme, but it certainly isn't common.
2015-08-18T09:55:57Z rm-r: okay
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2015-08-18T10:13:50Z kraehe: russellw, http://community.schemewiki.org/?emacs-indentation <- is first google hit for me
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2015-08-18T10:14:33Z kraehe: http://wiki.call-cc.org/vim#indentation <- russellw this might suit a vim chicken
2015-08-18T10:19:30Z kraehe: but, I wonder that there is no scheme pretty printer in scheme itself - or that my google fu can not find it
2015-08-18T10:20:16Z kraehe: should not be that difficult to code, e.g. as a student assignment
2015-08-18T10:25:25Z wasamasa: oh really
2015-08-18T10:25:41Z wasamasa remembers a surprisingly long old lisp paper on the difficulties of doing a good job at that
2015-08-18T10:26:54Z wasamasa: http://dspace.mit.edu/bitstream/handle/1721.1/6503/AIM-1102.pdf?sequence=2
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2015-08-18T11:30:42Z russellw: wasamasa, thanks, skimmed it just now - as far as I can see, most of the complexity is in providing all possible options and most of the unpleasantness is in portability issues
2015-08-18T11:31:06Z russellw: Both of those would seem to be avoidable in a basic commandline tool
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2015-08-18T12:46:58Z wasamasa: russellw: if you say so
2015-08-18T12:47:26Z wasamasa: russellw: keep in mind that a pretty printer has been built with other considerations in mind (making data readable) than a source prettifier
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2015-08-18T18:27:17Z kraehe: wasamasa, I think in terms of Projektstudium, when talking about student assignment - project oriented CS study is a typical for Bremen
2015-08-18T18:27:54Z kraehe: about half of your study are normal lectures, to teach theory
2015-08-18T18:28:09Z kraehe: but you can only get credits for finishing projects in a team
2015-08-18T18:29:01Z kraehe: you must lead and design your final Diplom (or now bachelor) project, but you can hire other students for help, and they also get credits
2015-08-18T18:30:05Z wasamasa: kraehe: ah, I see
2015-08-18T18:30:29Z wasamasa: kraehe: that does sound like a better setting for projects turning out to be more complicated than they look like :P
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2015-08-18T18:30:34Z kraehe: the tutor should of course guide this a bit, e.g. by suggesting: explore different common lisp, emacs lisp, clojure pretty printers
2015-08-18T18:30:50Z kraehe: 2nd week decide for a design to copy - 3rd and 4th week implement and document it
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2015-08-18T18:34:20Z kraehe: the drawback of this approach is that it sometimes produces CS graduates, who are good team guys, who might know theory, know to write polished documentation and charts, pick coffee ... but is not able to code a line in any language
2015-08-18T18:34:43Z kraehe: at least the last project shows if they are good team leaders
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2015-08-18T20:09:20Z gnomon: Given the code quality I've seen from lots of CS graduates, a program which taught them the fundamentals of working as a team, attacking system complexity from a broad perspective, exercising solid theoretical knowledge to achieve fully understood practical goals, writing polished documentation, and EXPLICITLY NOT writing code has a place in the market.  Or at least at $MY_EMPLOYER.
2015-08-18T20:10:34Z gnomon: Also charts and coffee, especially the coffee.  Find me a CS grad who can properly handle an Aeropress, let alone dial in a good shot on a Mazzer Robur + GS/3 (or even an E63 group head), and I'll hire that person.
2015-08-18T20:10:46Z gnomon: And steam a halfway decent microfoam, dammit.
2015-08-18T20:11:18Z jcowan: ANTI-TEA-DRINKER DISCRIMINATION!
2015-08-18T20:11:34Z jcowan: Unless you go in for foaming tea, that is.
2015-08-18T20:17:07Z Riastradh: gnomon: C'mon.  You gonna bring universities to the level of trade schools?  How insufficiently elitist of you.
2015-08-18T20:18:52Z Riastradh nibbles on a morsel of Ascutney Mountain and sips at a cup of Yunnan gold to wash it down, pinkie curled.
2015-08-18T20:21:54Z Riastradh: gnomon: What do you think of cperciva's computer science final exam?
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2015-08-18T20:26:05Z jcowan: "Judge, I want a divorce.  Whenever my husband and I go to a tea party, he insists on holding his teacup with his pinky curled."
2015-08-18T20:26:06Z wasamasa: gnomon: lol
2015-08-18T20:26:15Z jcowan: "But madam, people hold tea cups that way in the best society."
2015-08-18T20:26:24Z wasamasa: gnomon: I only know about this thing thanks to someone at work
2015-08-18T20:26:26Z jcowan: "I know, your honor.  But they don't hang the tea bag from it!"
2015-08-18T20:27:18Z wasamasa: gnomon: but don't worry, they don't have a degree
2015-08-18T20:27:52Z gnomon: jcowan, I'm a big fan of microfoamed milk in a strong cup of Earl Grey
2015-08-18T20:28:06Z gnomon: Riastradh, I haven't seen that exam yet!
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2015-08-20T01:03:26Z koz_: I'm having trouble understanding the SLIB library system. Is it meant to be 'a way for me to define modules in Scheme' or 'a way for me to access only those SLIB features I need'?
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2015-08-20T01:15:52Z koz_: I'm also generally confused about how to use SLIB requires.
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2015-08-20T02:44:37Z Aristocle: So, this book--SICP--is likely a better introduction to programming than me just googling up random stuff related to C programming, amirite? And it uses a Lisp dialect called Scheme, correct?
2015-08-20T02:44:51Z Aristocle: I also read online that reading SICP will impart in the reader the content of a four year compsci uni course.
2015-08-20T02:48:18Z mikeyhc: I wouldnt go that far but it is a very good starting point
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2015-08-20T06:01:54Z Russell-: As I understand it when comparing strings, if you don't care about a few nanoseconds you can just always use equal? Instead of the more specialised functions
2015-08-20T06:02:25Z Russell-: Would it be accurate to say that you are similarly free to always use < instead of the more specialised ordered comparison functions?
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2015-08-20T10:20:02Z ecraven: < shouldn't work on strings
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2015-08-20T11:31:48Z taylanub: Russell-: equal? can be thought of as tree-comparison, and a single string just happens to be a single-node tree.  so it's kind of incidental that it's generic.
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2015-08-20T14:00:36Z Russell-: What's the recommended way to define local/nested functions? As I understand it, just writing a local 'define' doesn't quite work?
2015-08-20T14:00:57Z Russell-: One could presumably use let with lambda, but it would be nice to have something a little more concise
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2015-08-20T14:03:14Z Russell-: Or maybe I'm underrating local define based on a hazy memory? I just came across a stack overflow answer that says it's actually defined to be equivalent to letrec
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2015-08-20T14:05:05Z Russell-: But wait a minute, if that's the case, does that mean you can also use local define for local variables and avoid using let?
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2015-08-20T14:14:07Z taylanub: Russell-: a sequence of internal 'define' forms is syntactic sugar for a 'letrec*' expression
2015-08-20T14:16:20Z taylanub: Russell-: this usually only looks nicer than an actual 'letrec*' (or plain 'let') when you define a procedure or so.  or maybe if the variable you define is kind of .. like a "constant" or so?  in any case it's a style choice, but using 'let' for plain variables is normal/preferred style, whereas it's weird to define local procedures by let-binding the result of a lambda expression
2015-08-20T14:17:41Z taylanub: just like you don't want to (define foo (lambda () ...)), you don't want to (let ((foo (lambda () ...))) ...).  well, sometimes you want, it depends on context/style.  it all makes more sense once you've gotten the hang of good styled code :)
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2015-08-20T14:22:26Z Russell-: right :) also I'm noticing that r6rs says you get a character from an input port with get-char but this doesn't work in chicken scheme, read-char works instead, and also notepad++ and some stack overflow answers think read-char is the way to go. Is this just a custom of treating rnrs as guidelines rather than rules, or am I confused about something?
2015-08-20T14:26:15Z mario-goulart: Russell-: I haven't read the backlog, so I don't have much context, but CHICKEN doesn't support r6rs.
2015-08-20T14:27:13Z Russell-: mario-goulart, right, its documentation talks about r5rs. Did the names of the standard I/O functions change between r5 and r6?
2015-08-20T14:27:41Z mario-goulart: I think r6rs introduced a bunch of new ones.
2015-08-20T14:27:54Z Russell-: Okay that makes sense
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2015-08-20T14:33:32Z taylanub: Russell-: sadly, there's been a huge community split since R6RS :(
2015-08-20T14:34:29Z taylanub: Russell-: things in R5RS and R7RS will be found in most implementations because these are small standards.  R6RS was very ambitious, and some people didn't like it and refused to implement it.
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2015-08-20T14:35:31Z Russell-: taylanub, oh! I see, that makes sense. So that's why chicken scheme, despite being apparently a high quality actively maintained implementation doesn't seem to do r6rs - it's not laziness, it's a deliberate strategic decision. Fair enough
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2015-08-20T14:36:27Z mario-goulart: Russell-: it is, indeed.
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2015-08-20T15:06:54Z pflanze: I'm looking for a function that takes two (or n) lists, and compares all items in them with a given comparison function, and returns true if the comparison function returned true for all elements and both lists are of the same length.
2015-08-20T15:08:21Z vraid: should be foldl
2015-08-20T15:08:36Z pflanze: Alternatively, that returns something like LT GT EQ, and takes a predicate that returns the same.
2015-08-20T15:09:11Z pflanze: foldl as in srfi-1 fold ?
2015-08-20T15:09:58Z taylanub: pflanze: http://srfi.schemers.org/srfi-1/srfi-1.html#every  but it stops when one list stops
2015-08-20T15:10:16Z vraid: although foldl doesn't short-circuit
2015-08-20T15:10:21Z pflanze: Ahh, every is n-ary heh.
2015-08-20T15:11:07Z taylanub: if efficiency is of little concern (readability is usually much more important), you can just do the length-equality check separately: (apply = (map length (list list1 list2 list3)))
2015-08-20T15:12:08Z pflanze: But yes, every returns #t if the lists are of different length and the common prefix is the same.
2015-08-20T15:13:14Z pflanze: I'd argue that without wrapping that in a function it's not very readable either.
2015-08-20T15:13:31Z taylanub: maybe, yeah
2015-08-20T15:13:34Z pflanze: And once you do, my function would be pretty straight-forward.
2015-08-20T15:14:10Z pflanze: I guess there's no such thing since there's equal? already. It just requires to map the inputs first if they need some kind of canonicalization.
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2015-08-21T05:51:05Z Russell-: hmm, I got a weirdness using a local define of a variable, recursive calls to the function overwrote the value as though it were a global variable. But local define is supposed to be equivalent to letrec? What am I missing?
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2015-08-21T09:12:21Z pjdelport: Russell-: Want to paste your code?
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2015-08-21T09:18:33Z PinealGlandOptic: hi everyone! how to generate new predicate which is negated predicate? I want to have a function which generates another function behaving like oddp() when evenp() is passed
2015-08-21T09:18:48Z PinealGlandOptic: there is something in lambda calculus, but I can't google it
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2015-08-21T09:25:49Z PinealGlandOptic: it's just nagate()
2015-08-21T09:25:51Z PinealGlandOptic: negate()
2015-08-21T09:25:53Z PinealGlandOptic: sorry!
2015-08-21T09:27:53Z pjdelport: PinealGlandOptic: Scheme denotes function invocations as "(foo)" rather than "foo()", for what it's worth. :)
2015-08-21T09:28:07Z pjdelport: If you're new to Scheme, it's better to use the former syntax.
2015-08-21T09:28:23Z pjdelport: Otherwise it might confuse people when you ask for help.
2015-08-21T09:29:10Z Russell-: pjdelport, https://github.com/russellw/scheme-format/blob/master/scheme-format.scm line 133 - I changed it to let, and now it works, but if I change it back to begin and define, it fails
2015-08-21T09:29:18Z PinealGlandOptic: pjdelport: sorry
2015-08-21T09:29:53Z Russell-: I'm trying to put together a small test case but I haven't been able to get the same symptoms to manifest
2015-08-21T09:30:04Z pjdelport: Russell-: you might want to use a tool to indent that code properly... standard indentation is very important for Scheme readability.
2015-08-21T09:30:29Z Russell-: pjdelport, I agree completely. That's why I'm trying to write such a tool, in this very project :)
2015-08-21T09:30:52Z pjdelport: Oh, I see.
2015-08-21T09:31:03Z pjdelport: There are plenty of existing ones, for what it's worth. :)
2015-08-21T09:31:13Z pjdelport: It should be built in to your editor.
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2015-08-21T09:31:51Z Russell-: There are? Where? Notepad++ (which is what I'm using for editing scheme) doesn't have any such thing that I know of. (I'm told Emacs does, but I'm not into Emacs)
2015-08-21T09:35:14Z pjdelport: Ah, I'm not sure about Notepad++, but e.g. Vim and any other reasonably-good programmer-oriented editor should have it, or a plugin for it.
2015-08-21T09:35:31Z Russell-: But I have a test case!
2015-08-21T09:37:05Z Russell-: http://paste.lisp.org/display/153986
2015-08-21T09:37:35Z Russell-: Using chicken scheme, that outputs (10 10 10 10 10 10 10 10 10 10) instead of counting up to 10
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2015-08-21T09:38:40Z Russell-: (Mind you, I keep meaning to get around to giving Vim a serious try. Maybe I should do that this weekend)
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2015-08-21T09:41:29Z pjdelport: Russell-: This would be more idiomatic indentation: http://paste.lisp.org/display/153986#1
2015-08-21T09:41:32Z pjdelport: For what it's worth.
2015-08-21T09:42:40Z Russell-: Two spaces instead of tab? Yeah, I can see the merit of that for saving horizontal space because scheme wants to be able to nest deeply. I'm not quite so convinced of the merits of six spaces on the arguments to frob, for the same reason
2015-08-21T09:42:44Z pjdelport: Indentation of most functions and forms continue with the indentation aligned to the first parameter, with the exception of very common special forms like define and if, where you just use two spaces.
2015-08-21T09:42:57Z pjdelport: Yeah, definitely not tabs. :)
2015-08-21T09:43:32Z pjdelport: Russell-: Well, the above is very nearly universal for Scheme and Lisp code.
2015-08-21T09:43:37Z pjdelport: It's very unusual to deviate from it.
2015-08-21T09:43:38Z Russell-: Especially since scheme code is often casual about using long names, that seems like it would mix badly with that kind of indentation?
2015-08-21T09:44:35Z pjdelport: If the function name and parameter list is very long, it's common to break the first parameter to the next line (indented by two spaces).
2015-08-21T09:45:03Z Russell-: Yeah that makes sense
2015-08-21T09:46:38Z Russell-: So what am I missing on why the test case with define doesn't work?
2015-08-21T09:48:48Z pjdelport: That gives (1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10) when I run it.
2015-08-21T09:49:37Z Russell-: I'm guessing you're not using chicken? So have I found a bug in chicken or have I just run into something that the standard leaves implementation dependent?
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2015-08-21T09:51:32Z pjdelport: Russell-: That's with Chicken.
2015-08-21T09:51:37Z Russell-: ???
2015-08-21T09:51:41Z Russell-: That I was not expecting
2015-08-21T09:51:46Z pjdelport: Are you sure you're not doing something different / strange?
2015-08-21T09:52:05Z pjdelport: How exactly are you invoking it?
2015-08-21T09:52:39Z pjdelport: Note that it is unusual to use internal defines the way you have it in that example.
2015-08-21T09:52:57Z pjdelport: It's also somewhat unusual to modify globals like that, rather than using lexical scoping.
2015-08-21T09:53:14Z pjdelport: So depending on what's going on, you might have other code that's doing something that's not contained in that snippet?
2015-08-21T09:53:17Z pjdelport: And affecting the result?
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2015-08-21T09:53:37Z Russell-: http://pastebin.com/Z9QdZZdK
2015-08-21T09:53:54Z pjdelport: Can you paste that on paste.lisp.org?
2015-08-21T09:54:10Z pjdelport: (I'm behind a proxy that can't access pastebin.com)
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2015-08-21T09:55:08Z Russell-: http://paste.lisp.org/display/153988
2015-08-21T09:55:45Z Russell-: The use of the global c was just for convenience in the test case. The actual program is getting its state from a file input port
2015-08-21T09:56:48Z Russell-: The possibility of other code doing something not contained in the snippet did occur to me, that's one reason I put together an entirely self-contained test case - the file a.scm is, in its entirety, the test case I posted
2015-08-21T09:57:43Z Russell-: I understand it's unusual to use internal defines, but I don't see why - if they work, they are markedly superior to let, with no corresponding downside - and it is said that they are equivalent to letrec, so it seems to me they ought to work
2015-08-21T09:58:46Z pjdelport: Ah, I think the optimizer must be kicking in and doing something odd.
2015-08-21T09:59:14Z Russell-: The optimiser gets called even when you don't provide any -O commandline option?
2015-08-21T09:59:44Z pjdelport: Well, I mean that it's something that behaves differently in the translation to C, rather than what the interpreter does.
2015-08-21T10:00:23Z Russell-: You were using the csi interpreter to get the correct result? Does it fail for you when you use csc?
2015-08-21T10:00:25Z pjdelport: The reason the code you have is unusual is that it depends very much on the exact evaluation behavior of those defines, more than what what standard provides for (I think).
2015-08-21T10:00:56Z Russell-: That would be consistent with the inconsistent results, but how does that square with the claim that local defined is equivalent to letrec?
2015-08-21T10:01:55Z pjdelport: I'm not sure offhand.
2015-08-21T10:02:21Z pjdelport: #chicken may be worth asking.
2015-08-21T10:02:51Z Russell-: I'll try that. Thanks!
2015-08-21T10:02:59Z Russell-: (Switching back to my registered username first)
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2015-08-21T10:03:07Z taylanub: Russell-: internal definitions are equivalent to letrec in R5RS, letrec* in R6 and 7RS.  I'm pretty sure this applies to Any Serious Scheme Implementation...
2015-08-21T10:03:43Z russellw: taylanub, right, that was my understanding - oh wait
2015-08-21T10:03:51Z russellw: letrec vs letrec*
2015-08-21T10:04:05Z russellw: If that's like let, the * version is the one that guarantees order of evaluation?
2015-08-21T10:04:50Z russellw: And chicken adheres to r5rs rather than r6rs
2015-08-21T10:04:54Z russellw: Maybe that's the explanation
2015-08-21T10:04:59Z taylanub: russellw: that being said, you have an (internal) definition in a context where it's not allowed by the standard.  a branch of an if expression is an <expression>, not a <body>, in terms of grammar.  only a <body> may begin with a sequence of definitions (which are then called internal definitions)
2015-08-21T10:05:38Z russellw: But I thought 'begin' counted as a body?
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2015-08-21T10:07:37Z taylanub: nope.  there's two variants of begin (chosen depending on context), one of which simply splices its subforms into where it is (e.g. '(let () (begin x y z))' = '(let () x y z)') and this may contain definitions, and the other is an <expression> which evaluates its contained expressions and returns the value of the last.
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2015-08-21T10:08:03Z taylanub: the former is only chosen when you're already at the beginniong of a <body>, i.e. in a context where definitions are allowed.
2015-08-21T10:08:31Z taylanub: so, it doesn't break your ability to put definitions where you use it, but it doesn't give you the ability if you don't have it.
2015-08-21T10:08:40Z russellw: So what does count as a body? A function, or program top-level, presumably - anything else?
2015-08-21T10:10:01Z taylanub: the body of a lambda, and everything derived from that: the body of a let/let*/letrec/letrec*, body of a guard, bodies in case-lambda clauses, ...
2015-08-21T10:10:26Z taylanub: (that might have been all of them, not sure if I missed any)
2015-08-21T10:10:38Z russellw: Guard?
2015-08-21T10:10:48Z taylanub: exception handling expression, found in R6RS and R7RS
2015-08-21T10:10:58Z russellw: oh! Okay thanks
2015-08-21T10:12:31Z taylanub: of course, if you write code specifically for Chicken and care little about portability of your code, then all this is not so important.  on the other hand, since the standards tend to be very strict/clean, it's not unusual to see an implementation move more towards the standards (remove unnecessary features) when they notice it can make compilation/optimization better, or so...  Guile 1.x allowed
2015-08-21T10:12:31Z taylanub: many many things which Guile 2.x doesn't allow
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2015-08-21T10:15:37Z pjdelport: Ah, I thought it might be that, but wasn't sure.
2015-08-21T10:16:21Z pjdelport: http://www.schemers.org/Documents/Standards/R5RS/HTML/r5rs-Z-H-8.html#%_sec_5.2.2 is the relevant bit of R5RS
2015-08-21T10:16:22Z rudybot: http://teensy.info/5YFz9jQOVi
2015-08-21T10:22:09Z russellw: right, thanks
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2015-08-21T10:30:06Z pjdelport: russellw: I think what's happening with csc is that x is being floated to a top-level define, with the binding shared.
2015-08-21T10:32:40Z pjdelport: And I think Chicken evaluates function parameters from last to first, so the entire recursion gets evaluated until the global x is 10, and then that 10 value is consed all the way back down the stack.
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2015-08-21T10:34:48Z pjdelport: russellw: Indeed, it is about argument evaluation order.
2015-08-21T10:35:01Z pjdelport: csi actually also floats the definition of x into a global.
2015-08-21T10:35:13Z pjdelport: But csi evaluates the arguments from left to right, instead of the other way around.
2015-08-21T10:35:41Z pjdelport: If you make the code explicitly evaluate the recursion first, then it evaluates to (10 10 10 10 10 10 10 10 10 10) in csi too.
2015-08-21T10:35:48Z pjdelport: So there it is. :)
2015-08-21T10:40:38Z russellw: pjdelport, so the conclusion to draw is that it's fine to use local define for constants but it can't be trusted to work reliably for variables; and in practice the kind of constant you want to use it for is local functions (that need access to variables in local scope), so only use local define for functions?
2015-08-21T10:41:56Z pjdelport: I think it's more that internal definitions are only defined to work in certain specific contexts, and if you use them outside of that you're outside of the standard.
2015-08-21T10:42:23Z pjdelport: Your implementation can decide to give a syntax error, or to implement them in some other arbitrary way.
2015-08-21T10:43:04Z pjdelport: And it seems Chicken chooses the option of implementing them by treating it as a set! of a global definition, at that point.
2015-08-21T10:43:57Z pjdelport: So Chicken is being permissive, but generally speaking, you should probably consider a (define) in that position as a syntax error instead.
2015-08-21T10:44:21Z russellw: oh! Yes I see. You're right. If I move the define to top level within the function, which is where r5rs says it's legal and mandates it to work, it does indeed work
2015-08-21T10:44:52Z pjdelport: So it's also not a csi versus csc problem like I initially suspected.
2015-08-21T10:45:02Z russellw: right
2015-08-21T10:45:21Z pjdelport: The only difference between them is the argument evaluation order (which is explicitly undefined in the standard, and should not be relied on by code).
2015-08-21T10:46:39Z taylanub: russellw: local define will work fine when you use it like described in the standards.  I just now looked into the code sample you two were talking about, and am pretty shocked at the behavior of Chicken :\
2015-08-21T10:47:30Z russellw: taylanub, right, if it's not going to compile an illegal local define correctly, it would really be preferable if it gave an error rather than a silent wrong answer
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2015-08-21T11:06:03Z pjdelport: Chicken scheme is permissive about a lot things.
2015-08-21T11:06:28Z pjdelport: Which is somewhat understandable if you consider its strong focus on compilation to C, I guess.
2015-08-21T11:06:41Z pjdelport: But it would be nice if you could put it into a stricter mode, for stuff like this.
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2015-08-21T11:10:23Z pjdelport: csc has a -r5rs-syntax option, but it still allows that. :(
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2015-08-21T12:30:40Z mario-goulart: jcowan: do you know why we have `do' in the spec?
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2015-08-21T12:36:03Z taylanub: mario-goulart: backwards compatibility probably?
2015-08-21T12:36:33Z mario-goulart: taylanub: with maclisp? :-)
2015-08-21T12:37:27Z taylanub: mario-goulart: my best guess would be, with R3RS.  that was the first actual "standard" from the RnRS, and not sure if anything has been dropped out since then.
2015-08-21T12:37:44Z taylanub glances over R3RS, looking for things that have been dropped on the meanwhile
2015-08-21T12:38:52Z mario-goulart: I don't actually mean why `do' is in r7rs.  I mean to ask why `do' has been added to the scheme spec (whatever version).
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2015-08-21T12:39:28Z taylanub: mario-goulart: oh, in that case MacLisp indeed, I think :)
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2015-08-21T12:39:54Z mario-goulart: :-)
2015-08-21T12:40:05Z taylanub: as I understand it, some questionable things were adopted from MacLisp into the earliest RnRS, and a lot was filtered out early but some remained I guess.
2015-08-21T12:40:26Z taylanub: and once it made it into R3RS it mostly stays I suppose
2015-08-21T12:41:05Z lloda`: why not move all of that stuff to an optional support library?
2015-08-21T12:41:10Z mario-goulart: That's what I'd guess too.  Just wanted to know if there is any other reason.
2015-08-21T12:46:05Z taylanub: from a glance at sections 4 and 6 (expression types, standard procedures) of R3RS, the most notable thing dropped since then seems to be the 'format' argument to number->string.  can't find any expressions or procedures that we don't still have (might be missing something)
2015-08-21T12:46:25Z taylanub: hmm, the remainder/quotient/floor/etc. stuff changed recently
2015-08-21T12:46:41Z taylanub: anyway, I guess 'do' is there only because "no reason to drop it"
2015-08-21T12:47:17Z taylanub: lloda`: mario-goulart: I don't think it's harmful that it's there, or what do you think?
2015-08-21T12:47:51Z mario-goulart: taylanub: I think it totally goes against the Prime Clingerism.
2015-08-21T12:48:05Z taylanub: mario-goulart: not to pile feature on top of feature?
2015-08-21T12:48:10Z mario-goulart: yeah
2015-08-21T12:48:24Z lloda`: do is a prime identifier real estate. I might want it to name something more useful to me
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2015-08-21T12:48:56Z taylanub: lloda`: you can always exclude or rename it during import, but I guess that's a nuisance
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2015-08-21T12:50:57Z taylanub: mario-goulart: well, it's just an identifier bound to some macro in the stdlib.  I'd say it can barely be called a "feature" in that sense.  but I certainly wouldn't mind it being pushed out to a legacy lib.  (I used it a couple times, but I could had as well avoided that, especially if we had a much better looping construct like foof-loop available.  (should actually be available as an R7RS lib
2015-08-21T12:50:57Z taylanub: now so I should definitely look into that))
2015-08-21T12:55:09Z mario-goulart: I actually am just curious about the reasoning behing the inclusion of `do'.
2015-08-21T12:55:40Z mario-goulart: behind*
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2015-08-21T13:01:19Z taylanub: seems it was added in R1RS (AI Memo 452), and the description starts with "This is essentially the MacLISP "new-style" DO loop."  maybe they also found it cool that it was possible to implement it as a macro in terms of tail-recursive procedures, and kept it for that reason :P
2015-08-21T13:01:43Z mario-goulart: possibly
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2015-08-21T13:07:19Z taylanub: one thing I find weird is that rec/named-lambda were dropped in R3RS.  without them, it's quite annoying (with letrec) to write an expression evaluating to an anonymous recursive procedure, which isn't an uncommon thing to do IME.  at least there's SRFI-31.
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2015-08-21T14:46:16Z jcowan: taylanub, mario-goulart: the bar for removing anything R5RS (except transcript-{on,off}) from R7RS was just way too high to meet.  I wanted to make strings immutable, but even that turned out to be politically impossible.
2015-08-21T14:47:24Z wasamasa: wait, what?
2015-08-21T14:47:28Z wasamasa: strings are mutable in scheme?
2015-08-21T14:47:31Z mario-goulart: jcowan: I see.  I'm actually just curious about why `do' is in the spec.
2015-08-21T14:48:04Z mario-goulart: wasamasa: what do you think string-set! is for? :-)
2015-08-21T14:48:14Z wasamasa: ...
2015-08-21T14:48:14Z taylanub: wasamasa: welcome to the dark side of Scheme
2015-08-21T14:48:29Z wasamasa: taylanub: and I thought elisp would be the only one to make fun of for that
2015-08-21T14:49:03Z LeoNerd: Strings are fixed-size but the individual character cells are mutable
2015-08-21T14:49:15Z taylanub: and Elisp at least has buffers!  and its strings are just arrays of chars anyway so they just inherit the mutability.  Scheme on the other hand only has constant-width, mutable strings, as a whole type of its own!
2015-08-21T14:49:20Z LeoNerd: You can think of them like vectors of characters
2015-08-21T14:49:59Z lloda`: there's already such a thing as vector of characters, though
2015-08-21T14:50:44Z mario-goulart: "foo" looks much better than #(#\f #\o #\o) though
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2015-08-21T14:53:24Z jcowan: mario-goulart: I can only suppose that Steele and Sussman actually thought in terms of do
2015-08-21T14:53:44Z jcowan: Note that Scheme do is not quite MacLisp/CL do, because their do assigns whereas our do rebinds.
2015-08-21T14:54:49Z badkins: Do any of RNRS (N {5,6,7}) provide for immutable strings in addition to the normal mutable strings ? I'm just getting into Racket, so I looked in their docs and noticed immutable string capability.
2015-08-21T14:54:55Z taylanub: jcowan: out of curiosity, what political hurdles were there against making strings immutable?
2015-08-21T14:54:55Z jcowan: No.
2015-08-21T14:55:04Z badkins: bummer :(
2015-08-21T14:55:07Z jcowan: Except that literal strings, like all literals, are immutable.
2015-08-21T14:55:22Z taylanub: badkins: the RnRS have no immutable data structures at all except that literals are *allowed* to be immutable :(
2015-08-21T14:57:16Z jcowan: We now have SRFI 116 for immutable pairs and lists, and CharacterSpansCowan is a pre-SRFI for immutable shareable strings.
2015-08-21T14:57:46Z jcowan: I'm going to try to get at least the first into R7RS-large, since it's obvious that Racket no longer cares about RnRS
2015-08-21T14:58:02Z jcowan: n > 5
2015-08-21T14:58:50Z taylanub: I thought Racket was affiliated with R6RS?
2015-08-21T14:59:34Z jcowan: Yes, but they certainly don't encourage its use.
2015-08-21T15:00:03Z jcowan: The only R6RS implementations that aren't (as far as can be told from the outside) stalled out are Larceny and Sagittarius.
2015-08-21T15:00:55Z taylanub: (some) Guile devs still seem to like R6RS better than R7RS
2015-08-21T15:02:49Z jcowan: Yes, Guile too, though it hasn't got full support for R6RS AFAIK.
2015-08-21T15:02:52Z taylanub: by the way, what about a variant of (scheme base) that excludes all pair/list operations, a (scheme mutable-pairs) that contains those excluded operations, and a (scheme immutable-pairs) that contains SRFI-116 but with traditional names?
2015-08-21T15:03:13Z taylanub: hm, but things like 'map' are problematic
2015-08-21T15:03:29Z jcowan: Probably a good idea.  I'm trying to postpone all "what goes in which library" issues until we know what all the libraries are.
2015-08-21T15:03:39Z jcowan: at least for the Red Edition
2015-08-21T15:03:53Z jcowan: Why is map problematic?
2015-08-21T15:04:02Z badkins: I'm a little torn. On the one hand, I like the idea of a Scheme standard w/ multiple conforming implementations. But I've also seen the benefit of a BDFL model. Racket seems to have the benefit of a BDFL model even though it's more of a team.
2015-08-21T15:04:19Z taylanub: well, I guess you could just consider map/for-each/etc. to be "list operations" as well
2015-08-21T15:04:35Z taylanub: and have mutable/immutable variants of them.  but that's pretty weird.
2015-08-21T15:06:34Z taylanub: badkins: I'm pretty torn also.  William Clinger will have a presentation at the Scheme and FP Workshop about how R7RS is great and can encompass R6RS and all (if I got it right) and I really hope it will inspire people to look into R7RS again.
2015-08-21T15:08:02Z jcowan: The two models aren't so different as they appear on the surface.
2015-08-21T15:08:27Z jcowan: Stalin's law:  who controls the agenda, controls the committee; who controls the committee, controls the party; who controls the party, controls the USSR!
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2015-08-21T15:09:09Z jcowan: Stalin got his way a lot in the 1930s just by happening to fail to send invitations to Central Committee meetings to people who disagreed with him.
2015-08-21T15:09:47Z jcowan: I do consider map and for-each part of the list API, even though they are in a different section of R7RS for hysterical raisins
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2015-08-21T15:13:02Z taylanub: fair enough
2015-08-21T15:13:52Z taylanub: I guess an implementation might also make non-mutating pair/list operations work on both mutable and immutable pairs, not having to duplicate them all
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2015-08-21T15:21:38Z jcowan: Yes, that should work by ad hoc polymorphism (as the SRFI points out, mutable pairs are neither a subtype nor a supertype of immutable ones)
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2015-08-21T15:24:42Z taylanub: rather than ad hoc polymorphism (going by its Wikipedia definition), I'd expect something like a 1-bit flag in the memory representation of the pairs which mutating operations check to see whether they may mutate, and other operations ignore thus have zero overhead.  (disclaimer: I have near zero experience in Scheme implementations)
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2015-08-21T15:26:20Z taylanub: I would have thought R6RS had something along those lines in mind...
2015-08-21T15:27:20Z taylanub: hmm, but there's no mcons in R6RS, so I might be totally wrong.
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2015-08-21T15:29:50Z taylanub: oh wait, it does speak of immutable pairs and how an exception should be raised when passed to set-car!/cdr!, so surely it's *not* just the procedures being stashed away while all pairs are still mutable.
2015-08-21T15:30:26Z taylanub tries to find out how one is supposed to create mutable/immutable pairs in R6RS
2015-08-21T15:33:05Z taylanub: the rationale talks about statically determining whether a program ever mutates pairs.  I guess it might be acceptable to have a module produce mutable pairs if it imports set-car/cdr!, immutable otherwise.  bit of a mixup of intentions (maybe you just want to mutate pairs you get from another module, not make your own ones mutable), but acceptable?..
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2015-08-21T15:48:16Z ggole: Is it just constant (quoted) list structure?
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2015-08-21T15:54:00Z jcowan: It is, yes.  There is no explicit way to create immutable pairs in R6RS programs, it's simply that it's easy to tell (from the library not being imported) when a program never in fact mutates pairs.  This allows hacks like copying pairs (or not copying them) under the table for performance reasons.
2015-08-21T15:54:10Z jcowan: BUt AFAIK no R6RS implementation exploits this.
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2015-08-21T15:56:14Z jcowan: What ho, Riastradh.
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2015-08-21T16:09:26Z preyalone: er, gambit's homepage looks down? http://downforeveryoneorjustme.com/http://gambitscheme.org/wiki/index.php/Main_Page
2015-08-21T16:09:26Z rudybot: http://teensy.info/4Cg5jeOV5r
2015-08-21T16:11:06Z taylanub: yeah
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2015-08-21T16:25:36Z ecraven: taylanub: have you thought about the following: I often do things like (set-record-field! x (cons a (record-field x))). I'd like to use PUSH here, but (push (record-field x) a) obviously won't work.
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2015-08-21T16:39:13Z taylanub: ecraven: it's certainly outside the scope of the SRFI.  in terms of this SRFI, you'd do that via (set! (~ x 'field) (cons a (~ x 'field))), or (set! (ref x 'field) (cons a (ref x 'field))), depending on preferred style
2015-08-21T16:40:27Z jcowan: preyalone: Oh, I thought you meant "condescends" ...
2015-08-21T16:41:07Z taylanub: that being said, this SRFI might serve as groundwork to implementing the push! you want: (define-syntax-rule (push! place value) (set! place (cons value place))) ... this is actually the usual definition of push!, and it automatically works if our set! is the one of SRFI-17
2015-08-21T16:41:36Z jcowan nods
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2015-08-21T19:12:40Z kephra: taylanub, why did you define push as syntax, and not as lambda?
2015-08-21T19:13:26Z kephra: *ah* so you dont need to quote the place
2015-08-21T19:14:14Z taylanub: kephra: because it's supposed to work for variables too.  (let ((lst (list 1 2 3))) (push! lst 0) lst) => (0 1 2 3)
2015-08-21T19:14:56Z taylanub: that's the normal push!.  through SRFI-17, it can work for arbitrary "places" and not just variables.
2015-08-21T19:16:10Z taylanub: (to be clear, it has nothing to do with my SRFI after all.  it neatly composes with SRFI-17 and that's sufficient.)
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2015-08-21T21:44:42Z r2q2: Hello
2015-08-21T21:45:06Z r2q2: Just came back from a massage.
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2015-08-21T22:06:44Z wailord: how was it?
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2015-08-22T14:35:35Z russellw: There is a function called map that carries out a one-to-one transformation of input to output list. Is there a generalised map that transforms an input to output list where several elements in the input may be transformed to several in the output?
2015-08-22T14:36:01Z russellw: Not really expecting such to be in the standard library, but just wondering if this is a generally known idiom or whatever such that it's typically given a particular name or suchlike
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2015-08-22T14:37:35Z vraid: could you elaborate on the "several to several" part?
2015-08-22T14:38:52Z russellw: An example would be if you were implementing the C processor on input represented as a list of tokens. Most of the time you would pass one token at a time through unchanged. Sometimes you might eat one token from the input and replace it with several in the output. Sometimes you might eat several tokens from the input and replace them with nothing in the output et cetera
2015-08-22T14:41:25Z ggole: Hmm, one to many would be mapcan
2015-08-22T14:41:46Z ggole: many to many sounds like a pattern matching job
2015-08-22T14:43:30Z russellw: It does indeed - and chicken seems to have a pattern matching library. It doesn't seem to be recognizing it when I try it, though. I'll try asking about that on that channel
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2015-08-22T16:03:26Z pjb: ggole: many to many is the job of mapcon.
2015-08-22T16:03:32Z pjb: or maplist
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2015-08-22T16:18:08Z ggole: Neither consumes multiple tokens in the manner that russellw describes
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2015-08-22T16:20:47Z ggole: I think what is wanted is a function shaped like (in MLish notation) (list a -> list a * list b) -> list a -> list b, where the first half of the return value of the function argument is its input with however many elements consumed.
2015-08-22T16:21:40Z ggole: Or perhaps a variadic generalisation thereof.
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2015-08-22T16:30:55Z russellw: ggole, basically yes. No worries, I can see how to write it. Could call it nmap, maybe. Or multi-map
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2015-08-22T16:32:16Z russellw: On a slightly different note, if you have a list of many strings you want to append together, do you apply string-append to it and hope the limit on number of function arguments is high enough? Or is there a better way?
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2015-08-22T16:38:07Z pjb: If you are a programmer, you can write a better way.
2015-08-22T16:41:12Z ggole: Sounds like a fold
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2015-08-22T16:47:58Z russellw: pjb, well, to be sure - I'm really asking about what's considered idiomatic, combined with not reinventing the wheel if there's an easy solution from the standard library
2015-08-22T16:48:32Z russellw: ggole, so it does! I think chicken scheme has fold as an extension module? I'll check that out, thanks
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2015-08-22T19:26:05Z taylanub: (TM)
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2015-08-23T10:37:10Z LeoNerd: Offhand, can anyone think of a small simple function (in r5rs? or commonly found in impls), that has both side-effects and a meaningful return value?
2015-08-23T10:37:27Z LeoNerd: The only side-effecting functions I can think of are things like set! or set-car!, which don't return a meaningful result
2015-08-23T10:38:01Z taylanub: LeoNerd: I'm pretty sure there are none.  Scheme is pretty strict there; either side-effects or return value.
2015-08-23T10:38:08Z LeoNerd: Hrmmm
2015-08-23T10:38:16Z LeoNerd: I see.. Ahwell
2015-08-23T10:39:02Z taylanub: but SRFI-1 has some mutating versions of functional list operations, for efficiency reasons.  dunno if they *must* mutate or are just allowed though.
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2015-08-23T10:39:26Z LeoNerd: Hmm
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2015-08-23T10:48:23Z f-a: LeoNerd: maybe (stretching a way bit your definition), call-with-current-continuation ?
2015-08-23T10:48:34Z LeoNerd: Hmmm
2015-08-23T10:48:43Z f-a: it kinds of return something and you could modify something from there
2015-08-23T10:48:49Z f-a: it's obviously a stretch
2015-08-23T10:48:56Z LeoNerd: Possibly, but this is for an introduction overview kind of presentation, so I don' treally want to go into call/cc just yet ;)
2015-08-23T10:49:04Z f-a: yeah
2015-08-23T10:49:11Z LeoNerd: If there aren't any then that's already a useful thing to point out anyay
2015-08-23T10:49:34Z f-a: whom are you going to introduce it to, if I may ask?
2015-08-23T10:50:16Z LeoNerd: A perl conference
2015-08-23T10:50:23Z f-a: \o/
2015-08-23T10:50:25Z LeoNerd: (YAPC::EU in Spain in a couple of weeks)
2015-08-23T10:50:49Z LeoNerd: So I have a few slides of "Scheme for Perlers", and "Perl for Schemers"
2015-08-23T10:51:58Z f-a: they are going to miss operators :P
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2015-08-23T13:14:58Z taylanub is getting a stronger and stronger opinion in that macro pattern variables should be visually distinguished somehow, e.g. as <foo> instead of just foo
2015-08-23T13:15:40Z taylanub: I keep falling for it: I write (let ((foo ...)) ...) in a context where 'foo' is a pattern variable, thinking it will get shadowed
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2015-08-23T14:37:59Z LeoNerd: taylanub: Yeah... Personally my vote might be on $foo but I might be biased
2015-08-23T14:38:12Z LeoNerd: Butyes, something visually distinct would be good
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2015-08-23T17:11:12Z John[Lisbeth]: Alright. It's a brand new day and it's time to learn some scheme.
2015-08-23T17:11:41Z John[Lisbeth]: I am using racket, though. Do you guys not support that lang?
2015-08-23T17:12:35Z wasamasa: this channel does not endorse any specific implementation
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2015-08-23T17:13:34Z John[Lisbeth]: Ok cool
2015-08-23T17:13:59Z John[Lisbeth]: I am hoping to do something similar to curses, where you use byte functions to fill up the whole terminal screen with something that has frames
2015-08-23T17:14:27Z John[Lisbeth]: I'm going to make a minesweeper game
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2015-08-23T17:15:49Z John[Lisbeth]: I understand the idea that I can use the require functions to bring in the modules I need to write stuff.
2015-08-23T17:16:23Z John[Lisbeth]: So my wonder is what is a best way to search the modules that are out there.
2015-08-23T17:17:22Z wasamasa: check its docs and their package repository
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2015-08-23T17:17:51Z wasamasa: the latter used to be planet, no idea what the new one is called
2015-08-23T17:18:30Z wasamasa: or if you dare, search Github for racket projects
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2015-08-23T17:30:33Z John[Lisbeth]: What would really help me to begin with is a command that will let me change my prompt to something besides >
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2015-08-24T19:18:30Z jcowan: Does anyone understand what the use case is for mutable ephemerons?  MIT supports them, Riastradh's sketch and Racket do not.
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2015-08-24T19:44:04Z mario-goulart: jcowan: what's Riastradh's sketch?
2015-08-24T19:45:08Z jcowan: http://permalink.gmane.org/gmane.lisp.scheme.scheme48/2378
2015-08-24T19:45:35Z jcowan: also https://mumble.net/~campbell/tmp/ephemeron.txt
2015-08-24T19:45:36Z f-a: I wonder who chooses such names
2015-08-24T19:46:00Z jcowan: "Ephemeron" is a standard word for something with a short lifetime, typically an insect
2015-08-24T19:46:29Z mario-goulart: Ah, ok.  Thanks jcowan
2015-08-24T19:47:19Z f-a: 1570-80; < Greek ephḗmeron short-lived insect, noun use of neuter of ephḗmeros
2015-08-24T19:47:42Z mario-goulart: I thought Riastradh was working on a language like Sketch. :-)
2015-08-24T19:51:15Z jcowan: The implementation is rather tricky, because you have to make sure that the GC has not yet begun to process the ephemeron, or has already broken it, before you try to mutate it.
2015-08-24T19:51:29Z jcowan: (because mutating a broken ephemeron has no effect)
2015-08-24T19:52:08Z C-Keen: so what's the point of having that as an explicit data type?
2015-08-24T19:52:34Z taylanub: C-Keen: how else might one have it?
2015-08-24T19:53:30Z C-Keen: taylanub: I mean why have it at all
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2015-08-24T19:55:38Z taylanub: C-Keen: ah, can't answer that.  I think specifying weak hashtable and weak vector APIs directly might be more useful, if that's what you were thinking as well.
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2015-08-24T19:58:49Z jcowan: Ephemerons are superior to weak references, but it's true that either by itself is more a building block than a directly useful object.
2015-08-24T20:02:55Z asumu: C-Keen: http://www.researchgate.net/profile/Barry_Hayes3/publication/221320677_Ephemerons_A_New_Finalization_Mechanism/links/02e7e533c25b903b89000000.pdf is the original paper on it and explains how it's useful for finalization.
2015-08-24T20:02:56Z rudybot: http://teensy.info/IiJlVXmcLH
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2015-08-24T20:09:16Z C-Keen: asumu: thanks
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2015-08-25T06:09:57Z taylanub: ski: I heard of that once but never seen it in practice.  visually I find <foo> a little nicer.
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2015-08-25T07:07:28Z Lokathor: so, a define isn't an expression?
2015-08-25T07:07:42Z Lokathor: but basically everything else is?
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2015-08-25T07:16:54Z ski: `x' in `(set! x 0)' isn't an expression
2015-08-25T07:17:27Z ski: neither is `((x 2))' in `(let ((x 2)) (* x 3))'
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2015-08-25T07:20:42Z Lokathor: only special forms have parts that aren't expressions, i take it?
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2015-08-25T07:49:28Z taylanub: Lokathor: I think one could say that, yes
2015-08-25T07:50:13Z Lokathor: a friend is starting programming with scheme, and i've looked at it a little before but don't really know all the details
2015-08-25T07:50:25Z Lokathor: trying to make sure i don't explain stuff that turns out to be horribly wrong later
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2015-08-25T07:50:40Z taylanub: a define is a definition.  definitions are allowed at the top-level, and at the beginning of a <body>.  (lambdas, 'let's, etc. have bodies.)
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2015-08-25T07:51:14Z Lokathor: okay
2015-08-25T07:51:39Z Lokathor: yeah i was explaining why if is a special form
2015-08-25T07:52:05Z Lokathor: and how it implicitly had to have an "else" case even though it didn't say "else" anywhere, because it's still an expression
2015-08-25T07:52:31Z taylanub: (a body starting with a sequence of definitions is equivalent to a 'letrec*' expression, where the definitions of the body correspond to the bindings of the letrec*, and the expressions of the body become the body of the letrec*)
2015-08-25T07:53:03Z Lokathor: i.... almost know what that means from having read Practical Common Lisp the other day
2015-08-25T07:53:14Z taylanub: Lokathor: if can have the form (if <expression> <expression>), or (if <expression> <expression> <expression>).
2015-08-25T07:53:18Z Lokathor: but my lisp family of knowledge is still pretty weak
2015-08-25T07:53:35Z taylanub: i.e. you may omit the else (third) expression
2015-08-25T07:53:43Z Lokathor: but doesn't (if <expression> <expression>) still result in nil if the test fails?
2015-08-25T07:54:00Z taylanub: it returns an unspecified value
2015-08-25T07:54:05Z Lokathor: hmmm
2015-08-25T07:54:07Z Lokathor: alright
2015-08-25T07:54:25Z Lokathor: i'll ammend my explanation tomrrow
2015-08-25T07:54:50Z Lokathor: unfortunately i've more experience with haskell, so i guess a few wrong ideas carried over
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2015-08-25T07:55:25Z taylanub: I wrote http://taylanub.github.io/doc/lisp-rundown.txt some time for people who can already program and know JSON and would like to get into lisp.  dunno how good it is, feedback welcome.
2015-08-25T07:55:51Z taylanub: I wonder if I should post that on HackerNews or something some time
2015-08-25T07:56:08Z Lokathor: this would be... quite above her level
2015-08-25T07:56:22Z Lokathor: but i'll give it a look for a second
2015-08-25T07:56:31Z taylanub: ok, yeah, it's only if you already know C-like languages and JSON somewhat well
2015-08-25T07:57:07Z Lokathor: she was having trouble with python and the guides are often quite sparce
2015-08-25T07:57:23Z Lokathor: so i suggested SICP instead
2015-08-25T07:57:34Z Lokathor: beginner oriented and such
2015-08-25T07:58:00Z taylanub: SICP is kinda crazy though, sometimes I wonder if it's really good for a total beginner
2015-08-25T07:58:17Z taylanub: maybe HtDP is better
2015-08-25T07:58:23Z Lokathor: HtDP?
2015-08-25T07:58:33Z taylanub: How to Design Programs
2015-08-25T07:58:45Z taylanub: can also be found online for free, like SICP
2015-08-25T08:00:09Z Lokathor: hmm
2015-08-25T08:00:13Z Lokathor: can you give some pros/cons?
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2015-08-25T08:01:10Z wasamasa: SICP was written for beginning CS students
2015-08-25T08:01:31Z wasamasa: it starts out fairly mathematical, then proceeds at an ever-increasing speed until you've built a meta-circular interpreter
2015-08-25T08:01:46Z Lokathor: sounds.. effective
2015-08-25T08:01:49Z taylanub: Lokathor: don't really know that well
2015-08-25T08:02:15Z wasamasa: HtDP relies a bit less on self-studying and feels more practical to me
2015-08-25T08:02:31Z wasamasa: the second edition is totally different from the first though, so no idea what changed
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2015-08-25T08:04:51Z Lokathor: well, this person is a little lite on logical reasoning some of the time
2015-08-25T08:05:49Z taylanub: .oO( that's how most humans are, unfortunately )
2015-08-25T08:06:18Z wasamasa: hah, it's racket-only
2015-08-25T08:06:48Z Lokathor: "we'll say that d["b"] = 2. so what's (print d["b"]) do?" / "i don't know.... is it 'b'?"
2015-08-25T08:07:02Z Lokathor: it was an interesting hour yesterday
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2015-08-25T08:07:34Z wasamasa: and it obviously covers less of the language, hm
2015-08-25T08:07:40Z wasamasa: not sure whether that's a good or bad thing
2015-08-25T08:08:00Z Lokathor: well, since she wants to move to other programming languages later, and eventually work in programming
2015-08-25T08:08:15Z Lokathor: i think SICP covering more language and such seems good
2015-08-25T08:08:31Z Lokathor: HtDP seems for people that want to solve problems but maybe not always with computers
2015-08-25T08:08:43Z Lokathor: just reading the preface
2015-08-25T08:08:46Z wasamasa: it pretty much drills the general approach into you
2015-08-25T08:09:01Z wasamasa: whereas SICP expects you to just understand accumulators fairly early
2015-08-25T08:09:34Z Lokathor: hmmmm
2015-08-25T08:09:57Z Lokathor: i'll keep HtDP as a backup
2015-08-25T08:10:14Z Lokathor: might need to fall back from the fall back case
2015-08-25T08:10:26Z wasamasa: in HtDP they form the very last chapter :P
2015-08-25T08:11:40Z Lokathor: soon after working with her i read a blog post where a 10-year-old was told that "in haskell, all functions take 1 argument and return 1 value", then he saw (2 + 2) and figured out there's two functions involved
2015-08-25T08:12:21Z Lokathor: so if a 10-year-old can do it, i'm sure a 22 year old can
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2015-08-25T08:22:11Z taylanub: I wouldn't be surprised if that 10 year-old figured that out by accident :P  I also wouldn't be surprised if some 10 year-olds are better than some 22 year-olds at mathematical/logical things.
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2015-08-25T08:27:18Z taylanub: the semantics of neither 'd["b"] = 2' or 'print d["b"]' are immediately obvious to someone who never met any of all the involved concepts there.  what do the brackets mean, why are there quotes around the letter b but not the letter d, how does 'print' combine with all this (humans are probably more accustomed to thinking in ad-hoc special forms/macros than in function calls with call-by-value
2015-08-25T08:27:18Z taylanub: semantics)
2015-08-25T08:30:11Z taylanub: I had to teach some Objective-C to a teenage 2-week intern a couple weeks ago.  it made me realize that even just the 'variable first, expression second' order in an assignment statement is a hindrance while learning.  COBOL does it the right way: "call foo returning bar" or something, which calls foo then stores the result in bar.
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2015-08-25T09:01:23Z Lokathor: taylanub, this person also had been programming python basics and working with python for 2 weeks already
2015-08-25T09:01:49Z Lokathor: they understood that, for example, print puts things in the terminal, and such
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2015-08-25T09:02:39Z Lokathor: and how to assign values, but not how to put it all together in their head at once
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2015-08-25T10:09:55Z taylanub: yeah, 2 weeks isn't much
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2015-08-25T10:11:50Z taylanub: Lokathor: arey they studying computer science, or what's the story behind, if I may ask?
2015-08-25T10:12:22Z Lokathor: uh, wants to learn programming as a way of eventually getting paid more than a baker does
2015-08-25T10:12:52Z taylanub: I'll let you know, by the way, that I have a coworker with a BSc in CS, programming since a decade, and still sometimes seemingly confusing concepts which many would think are rudimentary :(
2015-08-25T10:13:56Z Lokathor: well i've got a mild to moderate case of autism, so my sense of what's easy and what is not... doesn't line up with what others think
2015-08-25T10:15:27Z Lokathor: however, i must get to bed
2015-08-25T10:16:05Z taylanub: sleep well, and I wish your friend luck :)
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2015-08-25T19:26:52Z jcowan: Anybody open to reviewing <http://trac.sacrideo.us/wg/wiki/EphemeronsCowan>?
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2015-08-25T19:34:37Z davexunit: jcowan: ah, so this is a primitive data type for constructing weak key/value hash tables and such.  neat idea.
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2015-08-25T19:44:15Z jcowan: davexunit: Yes
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2015-08-25T19:52:44Z pflanze: How do you uncurry? In Haskell it's easy, the function just covers the one case:  uncurry :: (a -> b -> c) -> ((a, b) -> c)
2015-08-25T19:53:13Z pflanze: But I think that's not very practical in Scheme given that functions generally aren't curried to begin with.
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2015-08-25T19:53:37Z taylanub: pflanze: (lambda (a b) (lambda (c) (foo a b c))) or something
2015-08-25T19:54:06Z pflanze: So, how do you uncurry ((a,b) -> (c,d,e) -> d) -> ((a,b,c,d,e)-> d) ?
2015-08-25T19:54:08Z taylanub: well in any case there's no curry/uncurry, there's just lambda, and then there's SRFI-26
2015-08-25T19:54:35Z pflanze: cut is the inverse of what I'm looking for.
2015-08-25T19:54:44Z taylanub: oh...
2015-08-25T19:55:06Z taylanub: so like (lambda (a b c d e) ((foo a b) c d e))?
2015-08-25T19:55:21Z pflanze: cut is taking an uncurried function and returns a selectively curried one.
2015-08-25T19:55:33Z pflanze: taylanub, well yes, but now by using a helper macro!
2015-08-25T19:55:58Z pflanze: And I preferably don't want to write it myself:)
2015-08-25T19:56:08Z pflanze: Nor do I want you to write it for me.
2015-08-25T19:56:16Z taylanub: probably won't gain you much...  if it's a thought experiment or so then fine but it'd probably just make the code unreadable
2015-08-25T19:56:25Z pflanze: I just wonder what libraries would contain it, or what people are using.
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2015-08-25T19:56:33Z C-Keen: it's very unschemely
2015-08-25T19:57:23Z pflanze: I'm thinking of |uncurry-1-1|, |uncurry-2-3| etc., the numbers indicating the number of arguments in each level.
2015-08-25T19:57:34Z taylanub: people just use lambda and SRFI-26 really.  some define some shortcuts for lambda, like ^ as a synonym to lambda, ^x as a macro for (lambda (x) ...) for all kinds of letters in place of 'x', and then ^xy for two arguments, up to ^xyz.
2015-08-25T19:57:45Z pflanze: (define uncurry uncurry-1-1) for the standard, Haskell like, version.
2015-08-25T19:58:19Z taylanub: so instead of (lambda (port) ...) you can (^p ...)
2015-08-25T19:58:33Z pflanze: Where did you see this?
2015-08-25T19:58:41Z taylanub: Gauche
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2015-08-25T19:59:11Z taylanub: it should be limited to where the meaning of the 'p' is totally obvious, though.  otherwise proper English words are preferable, to make the code readable.
2015-08-25T19:59:13Z pflanze: k, interesting. Not sure I agree with *that* one, though.
2015-08-25T19:59:43Z pflanze: I guess it's implemented using a custom parser.
2015-08-25T19:59:51Z C-Keen: reader
2015-08-25T19:59:54Z pflanze: yes
2015-08-25T20:00:22Z taylanub: nope, if you have procedural macros you can use some magic to expand to a bunch of definitions for all possible 1- 2- and 3-letter combinations
2015-08-25T20:00:48Z taylanub: I think in Gauche it wasn't really for all combinations, just some common ones like abc and xyz
2015-08-25T20:01:06Z pflanze: I see. Kinda limited.
2015-08-25T20:01:43Z C-Keen: not really that useful in practise imho
2015-08-25T20:01:53Z taylanub: not really limited ... it will put 26 * 26 * 26 identifiers in some environment, which is roughtly 17.5k, but with today's hardware that shouldn't budge a compiler :P
2015-08-25T20:02:36Z taylanub: ok, three-letter combinations is pretty overkill I guess
2015-08-25T20:03:17Z pflanze: I guess I'm better off with my uncurry-X-Y-... proposal.
2015-08-25T20:03:34Z pflanze: Those don't need useless names :)
2015-08-25T20:03:55Z DerGuteMoritz: the lengths people go to to avoid a pair of parentheses :-)
2015-08-25T20:04:13Z pflanze: uncurry is not about saving parens.
2015-08-25T20:04:41Z pflanze: I mean, except if you propose to have *everything* curried and always use parens then.
2015-08-25T20:05:09Z pflanze: Otherwise it's about consistency, error reporting expectations.
2015-08-25T20:06:30Z pflanze: Or so I think. Maybe you'll care less about it in Scheme. I'm actually writing uncurry for Perl, where I realized that I really need it.
2015-08-25T20:06:31Z DerGuteMoritz: fair point, but most Scheme APIs don't lend themselves very well to uncurrying IME
2015-08-25T20:06:50Z DerGuteMoritz: ah :-)
2015-08-25T20:07:04Z pflanze: Then I noticed that I don't have uncurry in my Scheme libraries, and was wondering where it is.
2015-08-25T20:07:27Z pflanze: But I still think you'd like it in Scheme, too, according to the reasoning I presented. But ymmv.
2015-08-25T20:08:38Z pflanze: (I still wonder whether there's no lisp with automatic (and still efficient) currying.)
2015-08-25T20:09:04Z pflanze: (And still useful debugging.)
2015-08-25T20:11:03Z wasamasa: meh
2015-08-25T20:11:30Z wasamasa: the moment I decide to pick up geiser again to finally get all of the bugs in its support for chicken fixed, it spazzes out even worse than before
2015-08-25T20:11:59Z wasamasa: maybe I should just stay with M-x run-scheme and fix its idiosyncracies instead
2015-08-25T20:12:25Z C-Keen: wasamasa: which of these do you find annoying?
2015-08-25T20:12:38Z wasamasa: C-Keen: of what specifically?
2015-08-25T20:12:58Z C-Keen: wasamasa: run-scheme's idiosyncracies
2015-08-25T20:12:58Z wasamasa: C-Keen: if it's geiser's newest antics, https://github.com/jaor/geiser/issues/68
2015-08-25T20:13:14Z wasamasa: C-Keen: well, there's an annoying interaction between it and a comint hack I've made
2015-08-25T20:13:42Z wasamasa: C-Keen: so at some point the REPL input line turns read-only and every time I hit enter, it inserts twice the amount of the last time until I need to kill the buffer
2015-08-25T20:13:57Z C-Keen: ouch
2015-08-25T20:14:00Z wasamasa: other than that, the way it hooks into scheme-mode is weird
2015-08-25T20:14:17Z wasamasa: C-M-x behaves differently before opening the REPL compared to after
2015-08-25T20:14:43Z wasamasa: and if I fix C-M-x to behave consistently, its command gets swapped out afterwards...
2015-08-25T20:15:43Z wasamasa: anyhow, both of these should be easier to fix than shaking out all the geiser bugs
2015-08-25T20:17:05Z wasamasa: heck, I'd get rid of my comint hack if I'd have an usable emacs<->repl integration
2015-08-25T20:17:24Z wasamasa: for the record, all it does is hindering comint from wrapping around when navigating its command history
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2015-08-25T20:55:11Z jcowan: I'm going to create a SRFI based on the lambda* paper at some point.
2015-08-25T20:55:44Z jcowan: pflanze: http://okmij.org/ftp/Scheme/curry-fold.txt
2015-08-25T20:56:12Z jcowan: also http://www.cs.rit.edu/~rpj/courses/abstrprac2002/springlabs/lab3/lab321.html
2015-08-25T20:56:12Z rudybot: http://teensy.info/XeMkIKhA1s
2015-08-25T20:57:09Z jcowan: this is the paper I mean: http://webyrd.net/scheme-2013/papers/HemannCurrying2013.pdf
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2015-08-25T21:02:04Z pflanze: Interesting stuff. Thanks for the pointers.
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2015-08-26T09:43:32Z taylanub: hrmm, I need a datum->syntax that takes an environment object instead of a syntax object
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2015-08-26T12:27:50Z acarrico: taylanub: not sure what you been, but all syntax objects carry their "syntax environment"
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2015-08-26T12:49:22Z taylanub: acarrico: right, and I'd like to provide that environment directly, instead of passing datum->syntax an already existing syntax object whose environment is going to be adopted by the newly created syntax object
2015-08-26T12:53:06Z acarrico: Ok, where do you propose to get that environment from? It is only available on a syntax object.
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2015-08-26T12:54:47Z acarrico: In the new expander, you are talking about the set-of-scopes: do you propose to create a set of scopes somehow?
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2015-08-26T13:00:21Z taylanub: acarrico: e.g. in R7RS there's an 'environment' procedure that constructs environments (to be passed to 'eval')
2015-08-26T13:02:21Z taylanub: (datum->syntax (environment '(scheme base)) 'cond)  => syntax object pointing to the cond binding in the stdlib
2015-08-26T13:05:13Z acarrico: Hmm. So the artifact produced by (environment ...) is both a syntax environment (for datum->syntax) and an evaluation environment (for eval)?
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2015-08-26T13:08:43Z acarrico: That is similar to a namespace in Racket, but I'm not confident they can be with datum->syntax.
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2015-08-26T13:11:11Z acarrico: What is your goal?
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2015-08-26T13:13:21Z acarrico: taylanub: try this: (namespace-symbol->identifier sym)
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2015-08-26T13:14:32Z taylanub: acarrico: not using Racket.  I've mostly given up on finding a halfway portable way to do what I want (portable across systems supporting syntax-case), and am trying out an alternative strategy
2015-08-26T13:14:45Z taylanub: my whole goal is pretty difficult to explain
2015-08-26T13:16:56Z acarrico: taylanub: To make it portable you'll have to make a little API that uses namespace-symbol->identifier on racket, and datum->syntax in R7RS.
2015-08-26T13:17:10Z taylanub: I'm making a macro-based API out of a procedure-based API, which is quite a hurdle.  some record objects of mine store certain procedures in them, which I would call for the user.  now I instead of calling them, I need to expand to code that would call them.
2015-08-26T13:17:45Z taylanub: datum->syntax is not in R7RS, just R6RS.  and it's not powerful enough to do what I want :(
2015-08-26T13:18:45Z taylanub: since I can't just expand to a procedure object (since they have no external representation), instead I need the records to hold a syntax object which I can put in my expanded code.  a syntax object holding the binding to the correct procedure.
2015-08-26T13:18:56Z acarrico: Well, there might be a way to do what you want without mucking with the environments so directly, but it is hard for me to say. Maybe you should try to get it working in one system first to get your ideas straight.
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2015-08-26T13:19:56Z acarrico: You mean at compile time you need records to hold them? Why not just use binding directly?
2015-08-26T13:19:59Z taylanub: but I gave up on that; now I just put symbols in the records, and when I use datum->syntax on them I pass a syntax object I happen to receive from the user, and I will expect the user to have an identifier in their environment corresponding to the symbol.  but I'm breaking hygiene :(
2015-08-26T13:21:42Z acarrico: Yes it sounds like you should back up and figure out how to make your macro generate the correct code, with the correct references instead of trying to synthesize them.
2015-08-26T13:22:10Z taylanub: I won't actually break the procedural API, just build the macro API on top of it.  the macro API will use the procedural API in macro-expansion time.
2015-08-26T13:24:19Z taylanub: and certain modules ("plugins") import the proc API, construct records, and pass them back to the main code, which normally just takes some procedure out of the record and calls it (at run-time, when using the proc API), but now I'm using the proc API at macro-expand time and so can't do anything useful with the procedure object
2015-08-26T13:25:54Z acarrico: I would suggest that you try to write down a simplified explanation of what you would like to do, and consult the mailing list. There is probably a "correct" way to do it, but it is hard to understand exactly what you are trying to do.
2015-08-26T13:26:16Z taylanub: I'm pretty sure I explained it as simple as possible :P
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2015-08-26T13:27:40Z acarrico: Do you mean you explained it on the list? I haven't looked... but anyway, show a very simple example with code, or pseudo code.
2015-08-26T13:28:05Z taylanub: acarrico: not sure what list you mean?
2015-08-26T13:29:13Z taylanub: we're in #scheme in case you thought #racket :)
2015-08-26T13:29:31Z acarrico: https://groups.google.com/forum/#!forum/racket-users
2015-08-26T13:29:45Z acarrico: Oh!
2015-08-26T13:29:57Z acarrico: IRC fail.
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2015-08-26T13:30:16Z acarrico: sorry about that.
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2015-08-26T13:31:04Z taylanub: no problem
2015-08-26T13:31:30Z acarrico: But anyway, on comp.lang.scheme? Does that still exist? I don't think I have a newsfeed anymore. It seems like the kind of problem that requires a little code going back and forth.
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2015-08-26T13:32:46Z acarrico: Even so, the racket community is a very good resource for macro engineering, since they are on the cutting edge of the reasearch.
2015-08-26T13:33:05Z taylanub: yeah, syntax-parse looks pretty great
2015-08-26T13:33:07Z acarrico: And since racket has so many "macros that work together"
2015-08-26T13:33:52Z acarrico: Not just syntax-parse, but Mathew Flatt's new "sets-of-scopes" makes the old psyntax marks+substitution model easier to grok.
2015-08-26T13:34:07Z acarrico: Lots of exciting stuff.
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2015-08-27T02:52:22Z pjb: acarrico: if your ISP doesn't provide NNTP, see: http://www.individual.net or http://www.eternal-september.org/
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2015-08-27T11:15:38Z acarrico: pjb: thanks!
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2015-08-27T13:09:04Z taylanub: eh, I can just define `syntax-car' like (datum->syntax syntax (car (syntax->datum syntax)))
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2015-08-27T22:53:14Z John[Lisbeth]: okay so what I need is a way to launch bash commands in scheme
2015-08-27T22:53:26Z John[Lisbeth]: grep, sed, what have you
2015-08-27T22:53:41Z John[Lisbeth]: Ideally this would be done through piping
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2015-08-27T23:06:16Z John[Lisbeth]: need to reboot
2015-08-27T23:06:17Z mario-goulart: John[Lisbeth]: what implementation are you using?
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2015-08-28T02:06:47Z jim: hi. what's a good scheme interpreter to get for windows? maybe to do SICP
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2015-08-28T02:23:59Z Tbone139: jim: Hmm... I'd think mit-scheme would play well on cygwin, which SICP was built around.  There's also Racket for which someone made an SICP module. I'd say for command-line grab the former, go for the latter if you want a gui around it
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2015-08-28T02:26:15Z Tbone139: ah, mit-scheme provides a windows installation not needing cygwin http://www.gnu.org/software/mit-scheme/
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2015-08-28T02:33:34Z jim: ok, thanks... I did find racket and we're looking into it
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2015-08-28T05:26:11Z abbe: w00t, just go my copy of Lisp In Small Pieces
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2015-08-28T05:31:27Z evhan: Guess you'll have to assemble it yourself, then.
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2015-08-28T05:48:00Z abbe: cons it you meant?
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2015-08-28T09:06:32Z leppie|work: What should the bit pattern of 2.2250738585072012e-308 be? Racket gives me: 1111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111 Petite Chez: 10000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000
2015-08-28T09:13:39Z fizzie: With the right choice of exponent, those two are very close. But I think the second answer (with an exponent of -1022) is closer than the first (with an exponent of -1023).
2015-08-28T09:13:49Z fizzie: Assuming some reasonable assumptions of what that bit pattern means.
2015-08-28T09:16:22Z fizzie: Sorry, the other way around. First one is approximately 2.2250738585072011360574097967091e-308, while the second gives 2.2250738585072013830902327173324e-308.
2015-08-28T09:19:21Z fizzie: (With errors of about 6.4e-325 and 18.3e-325, respectively.)
2015-08-28T09:22:00Z leppie|work: thanks fizzie
2015-08-28T09:22:12Z fizzie: I don't know what the rules are in Scheme; in C, a decimal floating point constant must yield "either the nearest representable value, or the larger or smaller representable value immediately adjacent to the nearest representable value", which would make both correct.
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2015-08-28T09:23:29Z leppie|work: Oh wow, so you are allowed to be off-by-one in C?
2015-08-28T09:25:51Z leppie|work: Here is the R6RS code I use to generate the IEEE 'bit pattern/representation': https://gist.github.com/leppie/ed9a406205034bdd6382
2015-08-28T09:32:31Z adu: ooo i love floating point
2015-08-28T09:34:43Z adu: that's a good collection of test cases
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2015-08-28T09:53:25Z lloda`: Guile gives the same as Chez
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2015-08-28T09:56:05Z fizzie: In some other conversions (integer to floating, one floating to another) in C, you're allowed to get "either the nearest higher or nearest lower representable value, chosen in an implementation-defined manner" (distinct from considerations about the rounding mode).
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2015-08-28T11:09:06Z leppie|work: looks like Racket truncates while Chez/Guile does rounding-to-nearest. Found a web tester: http://www.exploringbinary.com/floating-point-converter/
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2015-08-28T11:18:08Z f-a: which one is RSR* compliant?
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2015-08-28T11:30:27Z leppie|work: f-a: It is not specified for RnRS AFAIK (it just mentions conforming to IEEE-754)
2015-08-28T11:30:48Z leppie|work: In R6RS at least, it does
2015-08-28T11:32:22Z leppie|work: Actually R6RS does not require it, but does for bytevector-ieee-double-XXX procedures (which is what I used for the tests)
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2015-08-28T11:33:36Z f-a: leppie|work: weird that it was not standardised, seems something important enough
2015-08-28T11:36:24Z leppie|work: f-a: not weird, RnRS normally leaves things 'underspecified'
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2015-08-28T15:38:25Z jcowan: I think set! should have been spelled eql!.
2015-08-28T15:41:08Z ggole: As in, make them eql?
2015-08-28T15:41:41Z jcowan: Just so.
2015-08-28T15:42:00Z jcowan: Though arguably (eql! (+ 3 4) x) should work too.
2015-08-28T15:42:55Z ggole: There are constraint programming languages for that kind of thing
2015-08-28T15:43:41Z ggole: Dunno if scheme should be one of those
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2015-08-28T16:01:19Z jcowan: It's not asserting a constraint, it's forcing one (hence !)
2015-08-28T16:01:32Z jcowan: But (eql! a b) might be (set! a b) or (set! b a), and those are not the same thing at all
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2015-08-28T16:04:13Z ggole: Yeah, that's pretty much the essence of constraint programming
2015-08-28T16:04:21Z ggole: (Although usually the constraints are a bit more interesting.)
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2015-08-28T16:12:42Z jcowan: Constraints are about values, whereas this is about locations: you force the locations to refer to the same thing.  The question is, if there are two locations, which one is forced?
2015-08-28T16:13:02Z jcowan: i.e (constrain 3 4) just fails, whereas (eql! 3 4) would be a syntax error, just as (set! 3 4) is.
2015-08-28T16:13:16Z jcowan: (Except in ancyente buggey Fortran compileres)
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2015-08-28T16:18:46Z ggole: Two "locations" (variables, I assume) would usually be unified
2015-08-28T16:19:12Z ggole: So that (I'm going to call it unify rather than eql!) (unify a b) and (unify a 1) implies (eql b 1)
2015-08-28T16:20:00Z ggole: That's basically prolog
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2015-08-28T16:23:12Z jcowan nods.
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2015-08-28T19:45:27Z jihuang: I feel a bit retarded, as I'm still on chapter 1 of SICP after two weeks of reading the book.
2015-08-28T19:45:41Z jihuang: Is this a sign that I'm not cut out for this -- programming?
2015-08-28T19:46:23Z jihuang: I've read posts of people who progressed through the book faster when they were 14/15 years of age...
2015-08-28T19:47:19Z wasamasa: yeah, you should just give up
2015-08-28T19:47:40Z vraid: jihuang: you should feel pressured to progress at a certain speed
2015-08-28T19:47:42Z wasamasa: enough bad programmers out there, no need for more of them ;)
2015-08-28T19:47:53Z vraid: now if you give up, that would be a certain sign you're not cut out for it :)
2015-08-28T19:48:06Z vraid: jihuang: sorry. you should *not* feel pressured :|
2015-08-28T19:48:40Z jihuang: wasamasa: Yeah, you're right. I'd hate to just add to the cesspool...
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2015-08-28T19:49:56Z wasamasa: on a more serious note, the book starts out rather boring with math abstraction
2015-08-28T19:50:04Z wasamasa: the rest is more interesting, but more demanding, too
2015-08-28T19:50:50Z wasamasa: so if you can't be bothered to actually understand the maths behind this...
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2015-08-28T19:51:33Z wasamasa: good luck getting any further than that
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2015-08-28T19:53:42Z jihuang: "if you can't be bothered". Are you implying I should try harder or something, wasamasa? This stuff just doesn't click with me like it does most of you guys. :(
2015-08-28T19:54:03Z wasamasa: jihuang: yes, you should
2015-08-28T19:54:36Z wasamasa: jihuang: nothing a ninth grader couldn't do
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2015-08-28T19:57:08Z jihuang: For example: The difference between normal and applicative order just didn't click with me at all...
2015-08-28T19:57:38Z wasamasa: it's not like ninth graders immediately grasp trigonometry either :P
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2015-08-28T20:00:42Z wasamasa: if that's your expectation of programming, no wonder you're wasting your time
2015-08-28T20:04:47Z jihuang: What do you mean?
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2015-08-28T20:06:53Z wasamasa: if you expect everything to come magically to you without doing any studying, let me assure you that it's not the case
2015-08-28T20:08:34Z jihuang: I just feel the chapter 1 stuff should be coming to me faster than it is; when most people talk about the difficulty of SICP (from what I've seen on forums and such), they usually aren't referring to chapter 1, are they?..
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2015-08-28T20:09:03Z jihuang: Nonetheless, I'll take your advice and try a bit harder
2015-08-28T20:09:26Z leppie: you only learn when you burn
2015-08-28T20:09:46Z mario-goulart: jihuang: just don't bother and carry on.  Don't forget to have fun along the way.  That's what matters.
2015-08-28T20:10:36Z f-a: ^--- so much this
2015-08-28T20:11:52Z wasamasa: if you think hard, it hurts
2015-08-28T20:11:56Z wasamasa: you'll learn to love it
2015-08-28T20:12:10Z wasamasa: oh and beware from people who make you think you think
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2015-08-28T20:12:32Z jihuang: People who make me think I think?
2015-08-28T20:12:38Z leppie: wasamasa: but we are those people ;p
2015-08-28T20:13:29Z jcowan: Propagandists.  Subtle ones.
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2015-08-28T20:16:05Z leppie: schemers will question everything till they all agree not to question it (till the next report) :D
2015-08-28T20:19:07Z wasamasa: leppie: I rather thought of the guys behind "The Real Reason Everyone Hates Umbridge!"
2015-08-28T20:19:28Z wasamasa: leppie: or "20 Small Things You Didn't See In Your Favorite Movies!"
2015-08-28T20:21:22Z leppie: wasamasa: I dont know what you mean
2015-08-28T20:21:45Z wasamasa: leppie: clickbait articles
2015-08-28T20:22:38Z leppie only falls for the ones with boob pics ;p
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2015-08-28T20:24:37Z wasamasa: imagine commits had titles like these
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2015-08-28T20:26:44Z aeth: "The real reason the compiler is broken." Idk, commits like that would be fun.
2015-08-28T20:27:08Z leppie: One of mine: Added random procedure to (ironscheme random) library
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2015-08-28T20:43:04Z jcowan: leppie: How much of IronLisp did you recycle to make IronScheme?
2015-08-28T20:50:54Z leppie: jcowan: nothing
2015-08-28T20:51:28Z leppie: read R5RS and started from scratch
2015-08-28T20:51:50Z jcowan nods.
2015-08-28T20:52:11Z leppie: maybe copy/pasted a few IO methods initially
2015-08-28T20:52:14Z leppie: ;p
2015-08-28T20:54:40Z leppie: IronScheme's "
2015-08-28T20:54:44Z leppie: oops
2015-08-28T20:56:37Z leppie: IronScheme's "success" is mostly based on lucky bootstrap of psyntax from (what I recall) a Gambit pre-processed file. After that, it was relatively easy :p
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2015-08-28T20:58:32Z jihuang: I'm curious: How is SICP such a good introduction to programming? What knowledge will the book impart in me in particular (I'm currrently on chapter 1)?
2015-08-28T20:58:42Z leppie: I think only 3 people ever understood psyntax; Kent, Aziz and wingo
2015-08-28T21:04:10Z f-a: jihuang: not that much to me, imho imho
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2015-08-28T21:06:16Z leppie: jihuang: my advice. try whatever languages you like, if you are bound for programming, one will stick sooner or later. it took me many years (and 3 careers later) to discover my true passion for programming at the ripe old age of 26 (mind you, I wrote some BASIC at 7).
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2015-08-28T21:10:28Z wasamasa: jihuang: now you sound like that SICP troll
2015-08-28T21:11:25Z wasamasa:  <kronole> Will reading SICP as a beginner give me an edge over programmers who haven't read it?
2015-08-28T21:11:50Z f-a: geeze wasamasa , you sound like an angry person
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2015-08-28T21:12:25Z fds: There are semi-regular Poe's trolls in here asking questions like that.
2015-08-28T21:12:36Z fds: It's easy to get tired of it.
2015-08-28T21:12:43Z wasamasa: <grizzlydeer> Can someone here tell me what this book SICP will teach me exactly?
2015-08-28T21:13:21Z wasamasa: <juicy_bit> So, reading SICP will pretty much be like having a free compsci course, right?
2015-08-28T21:15:09Z aeth: If anyone is curious about SICP, they should probably watch the SICP videos from MIT on YouTube. They're lectures so they're necessarily more concise than the book.
2015-08-28T21:15:38Z aeth: Having a canned response like that probably will be more helpful than being rude.
2015-08-28T21:16:08Z taylanub: wasamasa is angry all the time for some reason
2015-08-28T21:16:23Z wasamasa: I dunno, I find it highly telling when it hasn't even been one week and someone is using the same kind of words to do trollbaiting
2015-08-28T21:16:24Z f-a: that's a great reply aeth , maybe it could be added to the /topic (or maybe if it is too long to a faq)
2015-08-28T21:16:37Z taylanub: wasamasa: drive over to the NL and get some weed occasionally?  weren't you in Aachen?
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2015-08-28T21:18:09Z aeth: f-a: It probably needs to go on an FAQ so a link to the YouTube playlist can be included
2015-08-28T21:18:26Z aeth: Or maybe ab IRC bot if there's one here
2015-08-28T21:18:28Z aeth: *an
2015-08-28T21:18:41Z wasamasa: taylanub: nah, I'd die of boredom if I'd live there
2015-08-28T21:18:55Z wasamasa: taylanub: also, don't you know in NL only locals get the goods
2015-08-28T21:19:52Z taylanub: wasamasa: it might actually be normal that people frequently ask about SICP here.  it's #scheme and SICP is popular...
2015-08-28T21:20:14Z taylanub: just give them some short answers and if they're a troll they'll get bored soon anyway
2015-08-28T21:20:37Z aeth: There are some other lecture playlists, but here are the MIT lectures: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLE18841CABEA24090
2015-08-28T21:20:46Z Tbone139: jihuang: where'd you hear about SICP? What were you told?
2015-08-28T21:20:57Z wasamasa: taylanub: sure, that's why it's been going on since july
2015-08-28T21:22:26Z wasamasa: taylanub: yer about as optimistic as folks assuming gavino will just go away if you do nothing about him
2015-08-28T21:23:33Z taylanub: gavino could be a poor schizophrenic for all I know.  no reason to get mad either.
2015-08-28T21:23:39Z taylanub: well, I guess it does irritate newcomers.
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2015-08-28T21:26:28Z wasamasa: <Aristocle> I also read online that reading SICP will impart in the reader the content of a four year compsci uni course.
2015-08-28T21:27:05Z aeth: I did read that too... so I looked at the ToC of SICP online and quickly falsified that claim.
2015-08-28T21:27:17Z wasamasa: <ghost_runner> Should a beginner take the highly recommended Python road that MIT uses now or the highly critically acclaimed SICP road MIT used to use?
2015-08-28T21:27:30Z wasamasa: and a few dozen more in my logs
2015-08-28T21:28:07Z aeth: ok... so a frequently asked question needs a FAQ
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2015-08-28T21:29:15Z aeth: btw, an indirect link to the SICP video lectures are already in the /topic
2015-08-28T21:30:20Z aeth: Maybe they should be updated directly to a link to the YouTube playlist. You lose the context but more people will probably recognize them as videos and click if it's a YouTube link
2015-08-28T21:30:50Z aeth: Also iirc it's not easy getting directly to the playlist from the OCW site because they wrap YouTube videos
2015-08-28T21:33:42Z aeth: The playlist URL is also shorter than the abelson-sussman-lectures URL so it frees space.
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2015-08-29T15:23:49Z jcowan: So:  What is the value of (let ('6) (* . '7))
2015-08-29T15:23:49Z jcowan: (let ('6) (* . '7))
2015-08-29T15:23:49Z jcowan: So: What is the value of (let ('6) (* . '7)) in Scheme (or Common Lisp)?
2015-08-29T15:23:58Z jcowan: sorry, having trouble with new client
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2015-08-29T15:29:33Z taylanub: spoilers: just "read" it into canonical form step by step:
2015-08-29T15:29:33Z taylanub: 1. (let ((quote 6)) (* . (quote 7)))
2015-08-29T15:29:33Z taylanub: 2. (let ((quote 6)) (* quote 7))
2015-08-29T15:29:55Z taylanub: Welcome to the Dark Side of Scheme. :P
2015-08-29T15:31:22Z taylanub: touting so much cleanliness, and then this...  one of the major warts IMO, but can live with it, unlikely to lead to bugs in non-contrived code so pragmatically not an issue I guess.
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2015-08-29T15:50:26Z ogamita:  (let ('6) (* . '7)) #| --> 42 |#
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2015-08-29T15:51:31Z ogamita: jcowan: it doesn't matter, because the source (at least, very strongly so in Common Lisp, arguably much less in scheme), is not the textual representation, but the sexp.
2015-08-29T15:51:50Z ogamita: jcowan: it happens that (let ((quote 6)) (* quote 7)) and (let ('6) (* . '7)) are two representations for the same source.
2015-08-29T15:53:28Z ogamita: There are others: (CL:LET ((COMMON-LISP:QUOTE #b0110)) (CL:* CL:QUOTE #o07))  (CL:LET ((#.(car (read-from-string "'x")) #.(+ 4 2))) (CL:* CL:QUOTE #o07)) etc ad infinitum, and we don't hear you complaining about them…
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2015-08-29T20:04:20Z rm-r: hello
2015-08-29T20:04:30Z rm-r: what libraries for games programming are available in scheme ?
2015-08-29T20:07:32Z daviid: sly
2015-08-29T20:09:01Z daviid: rm-r: here https://git.dthompson.us/sly.git
2015-08-29T20:09:13Z daviid: this for guile only though
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2015-08-29T20:46:37Z rm-r: its exist something like
2015-08-29T20:46:41Z rm-r: ncurses or sdl ?
2015-08-29T20:50:06Z f-a: rm-r: http://wiki.call-cc.org/eggref/4/sdl I sarched a bit
2015-08-29T20:50:18Z f-a: ncurses is nice but unfortunately non x-platform
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2015-08-29T20:54:22Z rm-r: x-platform ?
2015-08-29T20:54:30Z rm-r: i dont care about portable too much
2015-08-29T20:54:40Z f-a: cross platform
2015-08-29T20:55:09Z rm-r: i see so i can use sdl in scheme
2015-08-29T20:55:13Z rm-r: like in c ?
2015-08-29T20:55:14Z rm-r: ok
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2015-08-29T20:55:53Z f-a: rm-r: just check the scheme documentation, I guess there is some kind of adjustment
2015-08-29T20:56:09Z f-a: or just use guile, gambitc or an embeddable scheme
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2015-08-29T20:59:08Z rm-r: i see okay
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2015-08-29T21:06:14Z rm-r: but generally
2015-08-29T21:06:24Z rm-r: it isnt a problem to write terminal games in scheme ?
2015-08-29T21:06:52Z rm-r: or its alot of work or its a hard thing to do ?
2015-08-29T21:07:58Z f-a: I wouldn't see a problem
2015-08-29T21:08:41Z rm-r: scheme have libraries in usefull functions
2015-08-29T21:08:46Z rm-r: like ncurses for c ?
2015-08-29T21:09:06Z rm-r: or maybe scheme have that like functions itself ?
2015-08-29T21:12:18Z f-a: https://duckduckgo.com/?q=ncurses+scheme&t=ffnt apparently, chicken scheme has you covered rm-r
2015-08-29T21:12:27Z f-a: and guile
2015-08-29T21:12:29Z f-a: and mit
2015-08-29T21:13:07Z rm-r: oh okay
2015-08-29T21:13:08Z rm-r: :)
2015-08-29T21:13:16Z rm-r: thanks
2015-08-29T21:14:43Z rm-r: so i can use ncurses in scheme that same good like in c?
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2015-08-29T21:17:36Z f-a: rm-r: as I see they are 1:1 bindings http://wiki.call-cc.org/eggref/3/ncurses
2015-08-29T21:18:44Z rm-r: yeah
2015-08-29T21:18:48Z daviid: https://www.gnu.org/software/guile-ncurses/
2015-08-29T21:19:16Z rm-r: looking good
2015-08-29T21:20:08Z rm-r: but hmm if im using library written in C in Scheme language what is compiled by Scheme compiler
2015-08-29T21:20:13Z rm-r: how this works at all ?
2015-08-29T21:20:18Z rm-r: C libraries in Lisp language ?
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2015-08-29T21:40:56Z taylanub: rm-r: Scheme code (or any other language) can call C functions (or functions from other languages) via a Foreign Function Interface
2015-08-29T21:44:31Z rm-r: where is that foreign function interface ?
2015-08-29T21:44:38Z rm-r: in compiler ? preprocesor ?
2015-08-29T21:45:24Z pjb: anywhere.
2015-08-29T21:45:41Z rm-r: i dont understand really
2015-08-29T21:46:22Z pjb: There's no standard, each implementation provide their own FFI feature (or not).
2015-08-29T21:46:28Z rm-r: i see
2015-08-29T21:46:51Z rm-r: and that implementation can implement that where he want in example in compiler yes ?
2015-08-29T21:47:26Z pjb: But essentially, you have an operator such as define-c-function that lets you declare a foreign function. so you can write something like:  (define-c-function (delete-file "unlink") ((path c-string)) int)
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2015-08-29T21:47:49Z pjb: and then (delete-file "/tmp/my-file") will call the unlink C function.
2015-08-29T21:48:38Z rm-r: ok
2015-08-29T21:48:52Z pjb: Most often, it's not implemented in the compiler, because there's no need for that to be primitive.  If you have a primitive to turn out a byte vector into executable code, you can write a library that will generate the trampolines.
2015-08-29T21:49:21Z rm-r: defice-c-function working becouse of FFI ?
2015-08-29T21:49:32Z pjb: This would be a part of the FFI module.
2015-08-29T21:49:48Z rm-r: hmmm
2015-08-29T21:49:51Z pjb: Just read the doc: http://docs.racket-lang.org/foreign/
2015-08-29T21:49:57Z rm-r: i see
2015-08-29T21:50:11Z rm-r: i was reading wiki about that but dont really understant what is that ffi is, maybe in this link
2015-08-29T21:50:16Z rm-r: ill get better understanding
2015-08-29T21:50:42Z rm-r: FFI is a library yes ?
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2015-08-29T21:51:26Z pjb: define-c-function or such, would most probably be a macro that will generate a lisp function that will convert the lisp objects into C bytes (and vice versa for the results), and call the designated C function, found in the loader/linker tables. (eg. using dlopen/dlsym).
2015-08-29T21:52:01Z rm-r: oh
2015-08-29T21:52:08Z rm-r: complicated thing :)
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2015-08-29T21:52:58Z pjb: You have to do the same, eg. when you call from C functions compiled with a Fortran compiler.  Or any cross language call.  Since the data types are not the same from one language to another.
2015-08-29T21:53:48Z rm-r: i dont know much about it cuz for now i know only c/c++
2015-08-29T21:54:09Z rm-r: i must learn about that more
2015-08-29T21:54:35Z rm-r: but i see i can add libraries to scheme code like an extension to my emacs
2015-08-29T21:54:40Z pjb: In some case, it is easier: when the implementation has a compiler that generates C code and calls out to a C compiler to finish the binary code generation.  Then defining a FFI only requires the ability to insert some C source text into the generated C code.  ECL allows that, I guess you can do that too with some scheme-to-C .
2015-08-29T21:54:41Z rm-r: its looking abit familiar
2015-08-29T21:54:41Z rm-r: :)
2015-08-29T21:55:48Z pjb: rm-r: only knowing c/c++ makes you sound like a handicaped.  You should fast learn some prolog, smalltalk, haskell and lisp…
2015-08-29T21:55:58Z pjb: (in any random order).
2015-08-29T21:56:02Z rm-r: yeah i wanna do that
2015-08-29T21:56:19Z rm-r: but okay i have .scheme file and in there is code from c too, now im compile it and i have hybrid binary
2015-08-29T21:56:27Z rm-r: with compiled scheme and c code ?
2015-08-29T21:57:16Z pjb: The details are very implementation dependant, and unfortunately, I don't know closely any scheme implementation (I stay at the r5rs level). So I can't help with the details.
2015-08-29T21:58:33Z rm-r: okay
2015-08-29T21:58:38Z rm-r: thanks btw
2015-08-29T21:58:43Z pjb: bigloo seems to have a nice ffi: http://www-sop.inria.fr/mimosa/fp/Bigloo/doc/bigloo-28.html
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2015-08-29T22:00:12Z rm-r: okay thx
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2015-08-29T22:04:51Z turtleman_: i implemented turtle graphics in gauche, if anyone is interested
2015-08-29T22:05:02Z turtleman_: i learned a new verb in the process, "nutate"
2015-08-29T22:05:17Z turtleman_: https://notabug.org/PangolinTurtle/turtle-gauche
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2015-08-29T22:29:10Z synthmeat: is there any scheme implementation i might embed with Turbo C on MS-DOS?
2015-08-29T22:33:07Z pierpa: try xscheme
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2015-08-29T22:35:19Z synthmeat: pierpa: that sounds exactly like something i'd bet on not working :D
2015-08-29T22:36:07Z pierpa: why?
2015-08-29T22:36:14Z pierpa: it certainly ran on msdos
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2015-08-29T22:37:01Z pierpa: and I certainly compiled it with turbo C
2015-08-29T22:37:08Z synthmeat: pierpa: maybe google misled me then. this is the first result for that http://www.gnu.org/software/mit-scheme/documentation/mit-scheme-user/GNU-Emacs-Interface.html
2015-08-29T22:37:08Z rudybot: http://teensy.info/zwvZlgrhX6
2015-08-29T22:37:25Z pierpa: google "xscheme betz"
2015-08-29T22:38:04Z pierpa: you can even find precompiled binaries for msdos!
2015-08-29T22:39:23Z synthmeat: oh, cool. yeah, this search term is giving me interesting hits. thanks!
2015-08-29T22:39:44Z pierpa: yw ;)
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2015-08-29T22:44:57Z pierpa: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/XLISP
2015-08-29T22:45:04Z pierpa: memories... :)
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2015-08-30T06:54:34Z taylanub: oh damn
2015-08-30T06:54:54Z taylanub: even that last tiny bit of non-hygienity can screw you up after all!
2015-08-30T06:55:02Z taylanub: find the bug:
2015-08-30T06:55:02Z taylanub: (define (syntax-car syntax)
2015-08-30T06:55:02Z taylanub:   (syntax-case syntax () ((car . cdr) #'car)))
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2015-08-30T06:56:27Z taylanub: the code couldn't be any simpler, right?  the kind of thing where you can be absolutely sure there's no bug in those two lines.  except when the programming language is playing tricks on you.
2015-08-30T06:57:01Z taylanub: this is how bad language design can screw you up
2015-08-30T06:57:48Z taylanub: maybe I'm also spoiled because Scheme is hygienic in 99% of all cases and then the last remaining bit is especially irritating when you encounter it
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2015-08-30T20:42:04Z turtleman_: https://notabug.org/PangolinTurtle/turtle-gauche/src/master/screenshot.png
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2015-08-30T20:44:12Z f-a: nice
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2015-08-30T20:49:15Z turtleman_: :)
2015-08-30T20:49:32Z turtleman_: i learned a lot while making this
2015-08-30T20:50:00Z turtleman_: about gauche-tk
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