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2015-07-01T14:03:32Z synthmeat: can someone help me define atom from little schemer? i have this, but chibi complains x is undefined https://gist.github.com/synthmeat/948adc3564d292754a50
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2015-07-01T14:23:06Z mario-goulart: synthmeat: your code looks correct.
2015-07-01T14:24:29Z badkins: yeah, works fine in Racket
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2015-07-01T15:01:55Z pjb: synthmeat: I don't remember what definition is asked, but the empty list can be considered to be an atom.  The reason why, is that (car '()) is an error.  Therefore () is atomic.
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2015-07-01T15:35:18Z synthmeat: well, it throws errors in both chicken and chibi :)
2015-07-01T15:35:30Z synthmeat: maybe it has too much chi
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2015-07-01T15:38:46Z taylanub: synthmeat: what throws errors?  the function you pasted looks correct.
2015-07-01T15:39:27Z synthmeat: doing "chibi-scheme test.scm" or "chicken test.scm" where test.scm is file with that content throws error
2015-07-01T15:39:27Z taylanub: unless any of those 'x's is some Unicode character that looks like the ASCII 'x' but isn't it :P
2015-07-01T15:39:52Z synthmeat: well, i'm gonna double check, sure
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2015-07-01T15:40:29Z synthmeat: yup. all fine
2015-07-01T15:40:33Z synthmeat: normal xs all around
2015-07-01T15:40:41Z taylanub: even if the defined function did have an undefined-variable bug, running that file alone wouldn't trigger it, because the function isn't called, only defined
2015-07-01T15:41:18Z synthmeat: ok, i'll paste exact errors, a moment
2015-07-01T15:41:50Z synthmeat: chicken says "Warning: redefinition of extended binding: atom?"
2015-07-01T15:42:09Z synthmeat: chibi says "ERROR on line 1 of file atom.scm: undefined variable: x"
2015-07-01T15:42:28Z taylanub: is that the whole content of atom.scm, which you pasted?
2015-07-01T15:44:09Z taylanub: Chibi is fairly R7RS compliant AFAIK, and an R7RS program actually must start with an (import ...) form.  otherwise it's not a valid program anyway, but maybe Chibi tries to execute it anyway, and maybe Chibi has 'define' in its standard environment without any imports, but doesn't have 'lambda' in that standard environment, and so it tries to evaluate 'x' as a variable reference in that form...
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2015-07-01T15:44:34Z taylanub: so maybe see if putting (import (scheme base)) at the top of the file solves the Chibi error
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2015-07-01T17:10:49Z synthmeat: taylanub: oh, that helped! thank you!
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2015-07-01T17:24:03Z arrubin: In case it has not already been mentioned: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9810342
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2015-07-01T19:54:22Z tmtwd: http://pastebin.com/bUU0Zzws how come this doesn't work?
2015-07-01T19:54:29Z tmtwd: its just a simple tree-map
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2015-07-01T19:59:27Z ijp: tmtwd: it is often helpful to say what you mean by something "not working". Presumably you mean it doesn't return a list
2015-07-01T19:59:48Z ijp: what you have is more tree-for-each
2015-07-01T19:59:56Z tmtwd: yesyes    --- I see my error now
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2015-07-02T06:32:20Z names: Lumpio- chazu NaNDude Saeren jewel fikusz carc klutometis cmatei Tenhi araujo zacts Gianormagantrous mlamari copec taylanub techiewickie ozzloy henrytill Khisanth dpk niklasl pjdelport joneshf-laptop mark_weaver disciple akkad Guest33935 Kruppe tm512 eli tristero joast averell Razz dsp ski mach vikraman asumu s1n4 dxtr ohama Riviera synthmeat jyc PinealGlandOptic peterhil` pchrist cross turbofail mario-goulart EnergyCoffee fds petercommand antoszka
2015-07-02T06:32:20Z names: b4283 balkamos greghendershott drdo eMBee ecraven choas aking_ ada2358 XTL rsforest stasku kwmiebach dytrivedi ggherdov samth cjh` superjudge rotty1 cojy oldskirt DerGuteMoritz gabot sunnymilk wasamasa jrslepak tmh_ chishiki gf3 zbigniew duncanm_ fionnan cantstanya Kryo ivan\ evhan stamourv foof amoe_ stux|work kbtr nitrix strmpnk r0kc4t eagleflo dsp_ low-profile diginet metaf5 m1dnight_ gnomon Guest15425 nisstyre pygospa erg cibs tessier SHODAN lloda
2015-07-02T06:32:20Z names: ByronJohnson hive-mind vifino sad0ur fgudin dualbus rudybot z0d ineiros defanor teiresias weinholt fizzie SirDayBat finnrobi_
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2015-07-02T06:52:28Z names: NaNDude Saeren jewel fikusz carc klutometis cmatei Tenhi araujo zacts Gianormagantrous mlamari copec taylanub techiewickie ozzloy henrytill Khisanth dpk niklasl pjdelport joneshf-laptop mark_weaver disciple akkad Guest33935 Kruppe tm512 eli tristero joast averell Razz dsp ski mach vikraman asumu s1n4 dxtr ohama Riviera synthmeat jyc PinealGlandOptic peterhil` pchrist cross turbofail mario-goulart EnergyCoffee fds petercommand antoszka b4283 balkamos
2015-07-02T06:52:28Z names: greghendershott drdo eMBee ecraven choas aking_ ada2358 XTL rsforest stasku kwmiebach dytrivedi ggherdov samth cjh` superjudge rotty1 cojy oldskirt DerGuteMoritz gabot sunnymilk wasamasa jrslepak tmh_ chishiki gf3 zbigniew duncanm_ Kryo fionnan cantstanya ivan\ evhan stamourv foof amoe_ stux|work kbtr nitrix strmpnk r0kc4t eagleflo dsp_ low-profile diginet metaf5 m1dnight_ gnomon Guest15425 nisstyre pygospa erg cibs tessier SHODAN lloda ByronJohnson
2015-07-02T06:52:28Z names: hive-mind vifino sad0ur fgudin dualbus rudybot z0d ineiros defanor teiresias weinholt fizzie SirDayBat finnrobi_
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2015-07-03T05:44:12Z jusss: how to compute add or dec of hex ?
2015-07-03T05:44:31Z jusss: (- #xf #x1) get 14
2015-07-03T05:44:38Z jusss: I need e
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2015-07-03T05:47:36Z ijp: 14 is #xe
2015-07-03T05:48:17Z ijp: to get a hex string, you can use (number->string 14 16)
2015-07-03T05:48:54Z ijp: if you want your scheme to always output numbers in hex, you'll need to consult its manual
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2015-07-03T05:52:55Z jusss: ijp: it's still "14"
2015-07-03T05:53:53Z ijp: rudybot: (number->string 14 16)
2015-07-03T05:53:54Z rudybot: ijp: your sandbox is ready
2015-07-03T05:53:54Z rudybot: ijp: ; Value: "e"
2015-07-03T05:54:55Z jusss: ijp: my fault,
2015-07-03T05:55:06Z jusss: I forget the second parameter
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2015-07-03T14:10:10Z foof: synthmeat: as taylanub says, you need an import
2015-07-03T14:10:50Z foof: if you change that to (lambda (x . y) ...) you get a better hint as to what went wrong
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2015-07-03T16:45:00Z vanila: anyone have scheme code to group the elements of a list by a predicate/key function?
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2015-07-03T16:49:19Z fds: Do you mean like SRFI-1's partition http://srfi.schemers.org/srfi-1/srfi-1.html#partition ?
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2015-07-03T16:50:35Z vanila: that's perfect, ty!
2015-07-03T16:51:47Z fds: It has a reference implementation if you want to look at it too
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2015-07-03T17:16:32Z taylanub: IIRC the SRFI-1 reference implementation makes heavy use of dotted rest arguments.  https://github.com/TaylanUB/scheme-srfis/blob/master/srfi/1.body.scm  here's a slightly modernized version (along with many other SRFIs)
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2015-07-03T17:42:29Z vanila: taylanub, I thought you ewere on bitbucket not github?
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2015-07-03T17:42:43Z wasamasa: taylanub: what happened
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2015-07-03T18:12:09Z alezost thought taylanub was on gitorious
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2015-07-03T18:15:46Z wasamasa thought so, too
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2015-07-03T20:49:19Z leppie: C programmer god really struggles with Scheme :|
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2015-07-03T20:50:29Z leppie: Wonder what kind of Scheme Linus would dish up if needed ;p
2015-07-03T20:50:39Z mario-goulart: for those who believe in C programmer god. :-)
2015-07-03T20:51:33Z leppie: mario-goulart: game coder god (written in C) then ;p
2015-07-03T20:51:51Z mario-goulart: :-)
2015-07-03T20:53:14Z leppie: if quake had to be developed from scratch today in an OSS community for the same hardware, I am sure they would get more than double as fast and the master would become the student
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2015-07-03T20:54:34Z leppie: but I am 99% sure, it would still be written in C :D
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2015-07-03T21:00:18Z mario-goulart: leppie: nah, node.js. :-)
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2015-07-03T21:02:11Z leppie: mario-goulart: sure, but we will have to to wait on the 12 developers working on javascript optimization to get it running fast
2015-07-03T21:02:51Z mario-goulart: But it's async!
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2015-07-03T21:03:46Z leppie: mario-goulart: sounds like good old counter strike 1.4 (the last one I liked anyways)
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2015-07-03T21:07:14Z taylanub: vanila: wasamasa: Gitorious is no more, re. freedom.  I was considering notabug.org, but I think the publicity I'll get via GitHub might be very beneficial in the long run.
2015-07-03T21:07:46Z vanila: did do something bad gitorious?
2015-07-03T21:08:01Z taylanub: ceased to exist :(
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2015-07-03T21:08:30Z taylanub: well, repos are read-only now.  they've sold off to GitLab, which aren't any more freedom-aware than GitHub, so GitHub clearly wins out...
2015-07-03T21:08:49Z vanila: I see
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2015-07-03T21:08:55Z vanila: what about bitbucket?
2015-07-03T21:08:59Z leppie: oops, I accidentally a gitorious
2015-07-03T21:09:00Z taylanub: (there's a "community version" of the GitLab software, but the service runs on the proprietary "Enterprise Edition")
2015-07-03T21:09:24Z taylanub: I don't know much about bitbucket ... *looking*
2015-07-03T21:09:29Z vanila: oh okay
2015-07-03T21:09:41Z vanila: i don't really know what you mean about freedom
2015-07-03T21:09:49Z wasamasa: the FSF kind
2015-07-03T21:10:01Z taylanub: oh, bitbucket is software only, not web service?
2015-07-03T21:10:24Z fantomik: you can always self-host using gogs or kalithea ;) (just saying)
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2015-07-03T21:10:55Z taylanub: if I'll host my own git repositories I wouldn't bother much with the frontend at all.  (what's the simple default called, gitweb?)
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2015-07-03T21:11:36Z wasamasa: cgit is another of that sort
2015-07-03T21:11:47Z wasamasa: I don't need the community aspect for something self-hosted
2015-07-03T21:12:04Z wasamasa: taylanub: you could be extra hipster and use a service providing only that
2015-07-03T21:12:20Z wasamasa: http://repo.or.cz/
2015-07-03T21:12:23Z taylanub: ah, was thinking of cgit indeed, though gitweb looks very similar ...
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2015-07-03T21:13:21Z taylanub: wasamasa: no idea what this has to do with "hipster", but if repo.or.cz provides gratis public git repo hosting, then I might look into that
2015-07-03T21:13:33Z taylanub: assuming it's free software only
2015-07-03T21:13:50Z wasamasa: taylanub: the usual reason for using a hosting site is because it offers more than just the web UI
2015-07-03T21:13:52Z taylanub: hm, having at least the README displayed on the front page of each repo would be nice though
2015-07-03T21:13:56Z wasamasa: taylanub: repo.or.cz doesn't
2015-07-03T21:14:12Z taylanub: if it displays the README, I'm sold :P
2015-07-03T21:14:31Z taylanub: doesn't look like it
2015-07-03T21:14:54Z wasamasa: http://repo.or.cz/w/girocco.git
2015-07-03T21:14:59Z wasamasa: I see a one-line readme
2015-07-03T21:15:02Z taylanub: oooh!
2015-07-03T21:15:33Z wasamasa: http://repo.or.cz/w/llpp.git/
2015-07-03T21:15:41Z wasamasa: here's another short one
2015-07-03T21:15:42Z taylanub: well anyway, I moved my stuff to GitHub only recently, and the bug reporting etc. features aren't bad, so I don't see myself switching any time soon
2015-07-03T21:15:46Z wasamasa: so I guess it works
2015-07-03T21:15:58Z taylanub: especially while looking for a job, having one's stuff on GitHub might help...
2015-07-03T21:16:21Z vanila: i hope it works wel for you
2015-07-03T21:16:41Z taylanub: if I find the motivation some time to go *full* free software, then I'll most likely have to quit programming professionally anyway.
2015-07-03T21:16:52Z taylanub: thanks :)
2015-07-03T21:17:13Z taylanub: (I currently have a job, but it's iOS app development >_<)
2015-07-03T21:20:35Z leppie: I have a job too, it onvolves Java, you may all commit suicide now
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2015-07-03T22:26:03Z leppie: Wow, sorry for the conversation killer
2015-07-03T22:26:27Z oleo: lol
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2015-07-03T22:28:58Z leppie: actually, iy seems like me ISP
2015-07-03T22:29:06Z leppie: s/iy/it/
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2015-07-04T14:56:19Z otjura: are there any benefits in scheme over common lisp?
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2015-07-04T15:02:24Z wasamasa: otjura: you should be able to categorize #scheme's reaction easily
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2015-07-04T15:12:36Z otjura: wasamasa: what do you mean?
2015-07-04T15:14:22Z wasamasa: otjura: if you're asking a channel full of scheme users whether they believe scheme to be any good, what would their answer possibly be...
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2015-07-04T15:15:26Z otjura: wasamasa: I didn't ask is it better. I asked benefits. Concrete benefits.
2015-07-04T15:15:42Z wasamasa: no, you asked whether there are any
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2015-07-04T15:15:57Z alezost: I know the answer! I know! I know!
2015-07-04T15:16:13Z otjura: okay, I'll try asking reverse question in #lisp
2015-07-04T15:16:17Z wasamasa: lol
2015-07-04T15:16:24Z wasamasa: it will go the same way
2015-07-04T15:16:33Z wasamasa: except that you'll have a few more people scoffing at you
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2015-07-04T15:25:13Z fantomik: actually #lisp is a little more populated right now ;) (440 vs 194), but the reaction will be presumably the same.
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2015-07-04T15:25:55Z fantomik: or not :)
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2015-07-05T15:34:21Z turtleman_: https://notabug.org/PangolinTurtle/srfi-49/raw/master/49.sld
2015-07-05T15:34:28Z turtleman_: how can i stop chibi scheme from running out of stack space?
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2015-07-05T15:37:37Z pjb: Yes, stop doing non-terminal recursion.
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2015-07-05T15:40:23Z turtleman_: oh
2015-07-05T15:40:29Z turtleman_: so its because its never ending?
2015-07-05T15:40:36Z turtleman_: so maybe the reference implementation is broken
2015-07-05T15:40:55Z turtleman_: kawa reads it ok though
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2015-07-05T15:45:04Z turtleman_: and i think sagittarius's implementation is also broken
2015-07-05T15:45:06Z turtleman_: so they arent any help
2015-07-05T15:46:29Z turtleman_: hmm but gauche also has the same problem
2015-07-05T15:46:30Z turtleman_: so weird
2015-07-05T15:47:33Z pjb: I didn't say that, I've not read the url.  Out of stack space is recursion gone wild. (unless you have a really very deep program).
2015-07-05T15:47:45Z turtleman_: oh ok
2015-07-05T15:48:07Z turtleman_: i think gauche and sagittarius fail for non-recursion reasons
2015-07-05T15:48:15Z turtleman_: i might rewrite the whole implementation
2015-07-05T15:48:38Z turtleman_: its only 184 lines, so i think i can do it
2015-07-05T15:48:53Z pjb: find the recursion and derecursive it!
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2015-07-05T15:49:37Z turtleman_: hmm ok
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2015-07-05T16:59:24Z turtleman_: im not sure how to derecurse it
2015-07-05T16:59:27Z turtleman_: there are three procedures
2015-07-05T16:59:29Z turtleman_: read-blocks
2015-07-05T16:59:32Z turtleman_: read-block-clean
2015-07-05T16:59:36Z turtleman_: and read-block
2015-07-05T16:59:44Z turtleman_: and they call each other in a circle
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2015-07-05T17:11:15Z pjb: you can use the accumulator pattern.
2015-07-05T17:11:38Z pjb: For example, readblock in the else branch calls itself in a non-terminal recursive call.
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2015-07-05T17:13:21Z pjb: accumulator pattern: (define (s l) (if (null? l) 0 (+ (car l) (s (cdr l))))) --> (define (s* l a) (if (null? l) a (s* (cdr l) (+ (car l) a)))) (define (s l) (s* l 0))
2015-07-05T17:13:47Z pjb: this can also be done with mutually recursive functions.
2015-07-05T17:14:20Z pjb: (and once you have only tail recursions, it can be trivially transformed into an iterative procedure, but since it's already done by scheme, you don't care anymore).
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2015-07-05T17:16:07Z pjb: turtleman_: that said, your recursion should not be that wild but depend on the depth of your sexp.  Do you have sexps deeper than your stack?   You should trace it, perhaps you are recursing without making progress.
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2015-07-05T17:21:47Z turtleman_: now
2015-07-05T17:21:49Z turtleman_: it was just
2015-07-05T17:21:53Z turtleman_: + 1
2015-07-05T17:21:54Z turtleman_:   2
2015-07-05T17:22:00Z turtleman_: that caused the error
2015-07-05T17:22:03Z turtleman_: no*
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2015-07-05T18:02:15Z turtleman_: i find this code really hard for me to trace
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2015-07-05T18:37:26Z pjb: It's a very little library.  It shouldn't be that hard. Rewrite it if need be.
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2015-07-05T18:40:43Z tmtwd: http://pastebin.com/KZLyY5WE can anyone tell me what is wrong with this function? I give an error in the paste
2015-07-05T18:41:27Z pjb: in (foldl f (f z (car xs)) (cdr xs)) yuo call f with 2 arguments.
2015-07-05T18:41:31Z tmtwd: nvm I got it
2015-07-05T18:41:33Z tmtwd: thanks :)
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2015-07-05T19:19:09Z turtleman_: ugggggh
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2015-07-05T19:24:48Z turtleman_: ok good
2015-07-05T19:24:54Z turtleman_: i turned indentationlevel into an accumulator
2015-07-05T19:24:57Z turtleman_: so ill see if this helps
2015-07-05T19:25:29Z turtleman_: WOW
2015-07-05T19:25:31Z turtleman_: that was it!!!
2015-07-05T19:25:31Z turtleman_: :D
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2015-07-05T19:28:39Z turtleman_: i cant believe that caused a problem
2015-07-05T19:28:44Z turtleman_: it looks so innocent...
2015-07-05T19:28:53Z turtleman_: compared to the rest of the code, which looks a lot worse to me
2015-07-05T19:30:09Z turtleman_: it remains broken in gauche, however.
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2015-07-05T19:51:41Z jcowan: Hails!
2015-07-05T19:51:55Z turtleman_: how can something be perfect in chibi and kawa but make no sense in gauche
2015-07-05T19:52:05Z turtleman_: hmm...
2015-07-05T19:52:35Z vanila: hello
2015-07-05T19:52:55Z jcowan: turtleman_: What, specifically?
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2015-07-05T19:56:10Z turtleman_: im trying to port srfi 49 to an r7rs library
2015-07-05T19:56:16Z turtleman_: i made it so it doesnt make chibi run out of stack
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2015-07-05T19:56:29Z turtleman_: but gauche is doing something weird
2015-07-05T19:56:35Z turtleman_: it just reads null for everything
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2015-07-05T19:59:53Z turtleman_: https://notabug.org/PangolinTurtle/srfi-49/raw/master/49.sld
2015-07-05T19:59:57Z turtleman_: if you are wondering what my code is
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2015-07-05T20:02:01Z jcowan: Does it work when you sugar-read from a file?
2015-07-05T20:03:00Z turtleman_: i havent tried a file, but i will try it now
2015-07-05T20:04:46Z turtleman_: nope, that procedure is broken
2015-07-05T20:04:47Z turtleman_: ill fix it now
2015-07-05T20:05:06Z turtleman_: sugar-load, i mean
2015-07-05T20:05:13Z turtleman_: hmm i guess i should try sugar-read from a file too
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2015-07-05T20:05:35Z jcowan nods.
2015-07-05T20:05:51Z jcowan: I wouldn't be surprised if peek-char is buggy in Gauche when reading from current-input.
2015-07-05T20:05:59Z jcowan: (that is, from the terminal)
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2015-07-05T20:06:05Z turtleman_: wow
2015-07-05T20:06:07Z turtleman_: you were right!
2015-07-05T20:06:12Z turtleman_: it works from a file
2015-07-05T20:06:18Z turtleman_: thanks, you saved me tons of headache over this :P
2015-07-05T20:06:24Z jcowan: Okay, file a Gauche bug
2015-07-05T20:06:27Z turtleman_: ok
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2015-07-05T21:39:30Z turtleman_: oh wait a second
2015-07-05T21:39:37Z turtleman_: huh. i fixed gauche's problem by accident.
2015-07-05T21:39:50Z turtleman_: i wonder if i should still file a ticket :S
2015-07-05T21:39:55Z turtleman_: since i cant reproduce it now
2015-07-05T21:41:09Z turtleman_: actually yes i can
2015-07-05T21:41:16Z turtleman_: the problem is that it reads your first newline as the next line
2015-07-05T21:41:31Z turtleman_: so you cant really use (read-line) from the terminal, for example
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2015-07-05T21:53:49Z turtleman_: is there a convention for how iexpr files should be named? or are they not popular enough for that?
2015-07-05T21:53:57Z turtleman_: i am using the *.iscm extension for now
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2015-07-05T23:11:56Z turtleman_: hmm. im not sure how to work in block-comments to i expressions
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2015-07-05T23:16:47Z turtleman_: then again, python doesnt have them. maybe ill just ignore it
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2015-07-05T23:39:50Z jcowan: turtleman_:  You might want to consider sweet-expressions or Wisp instead.
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2015-07-06T00:16:27Z turtleman_: jcowan: i saw wisp but the reference implementation looked huge and not terribly portable
2015-07-06T00:17:20Z turtleman_: still, i will check it out
2015-07-06T00:17:24Z jcowan: Point.
2015-07-06T00:19:00Z jcowan: Wisp and sweet-expressions completely reimplement `read` as well.
2015-07-06T00:19:51Z turtleman_: Point?
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2015-07-06T09:45:28Z ecraven: why did anyone think it necessary to include SQUARE in r7rs?
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2015-07-06T09:49:20Z pjb: Because I've defined it at least a dozen time in different libraries…
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2015-07-06T10:07:34Z z0d: I rarely use squaring
2015-07-06T10:08:19Z z0d: most people don't need a separate function for it. JMO
2015-07-06T10:08:31Z z0d: I mean built-in function
2015-07-06T10:08:45Z z0d: we might end up like PHP <-:
2015-07-06T10:17:44Z wasamasa: assuming r7rs takes over
2015-07-06T10:18:26Z z0d: yeah. now the Scheme world is fragmented
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2015-07-06T11:47:24Z abbe: hi
2015-07-06T11:47:56Z abbe: Is there a way to verify that compiler/interpreter is indeed performing tail recursion ?
2015-07-06T11:49:24Z LeoNerd: As with all such optimisations, in general "no"
2015-07-06T11:50:20Z abbe: cool, thanks!
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2015-07-06T11:51:13Z LeoNerd: You might consider some test like running a longrunning loop that ought to execute in constant space, and verify that the interpreter does indeed use only constant space. But that would fail on implementations like the Empire State Building
2015-07-06T11:51:30Z LeoNerd: (I forget its real name, but that name ought to be enough to remind people who know about it which one I mean)
2015-07-06T11:51:40Z taylanub: "Cheney on the MTA" IIRC
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2015-07-06T11:53:03Z abbe: okay
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2015-07-06T11:53:59Z taylanub: abbe: if the implementation can produce stack traces, you might also verify it via that
2015-07-06T11:54:09Z abbe: oh, right :)
2015-07-06T11:54:16Z taylanub: though some implementations are extra smart and keep some stacks for debugging purposes
2015-07-06T11:54:21Z taylanub: some stack frames I mean
2015-07-06T11:54:23Z LeoNerd: "stack"
2015-07-06T11:55:01Z abbe: wow!
2015-07-06T11:55:24Z abbe: thanks!
2015-07-06T11:56:05Z abbe: the tail-recursive finished earlier
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2015-07-06T12:22:28Z abbe: rudybot: (apply or '(#f #f #f q #f q))
2015-07-06T12:22:29Z rudybot: abbe: your sandbox is ready
2015-07-06T12:22:29Z rudybot: abbe: error: eval:1:7: or: bad syntax <NEWLINE>   in: or
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2015-07-06T12:24:12Z abbe: should I be defining a wrapper function for `or' ? the intention here is to logical-OR all the elements of list.
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2015-07-06T12:30:05Z LeoNerd: or is probably a macro, so you likely can't 'apply it like that
2015-07-06T12:31:15Z abbe: yes, it's a syntax form. so far I come up with: (fold (lambda (a b) (or a b)) #f list-of-elements)
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2015-07-06T13:23:39Z taylanub: abbe: or you could use 'any' from SRFI-1:  (any (lambda (x) x) list)
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2015-07-06T13:24:39Z abbe: thanks!
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2015-07-06T13:28:44Z davexunit: taylanub: shortened further: (any identity lst)
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2015-07-06T13:51:08Z taylanub: if identity is defined...
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2015-07-06T15:46:38Z ecraven: all the binary and text io stuff in r7rs is purely for windows, right? on unix, there's no need or difference for these?
2015-07-06T15:54:51Z taylanub: ecraven: AFAIUI text mode will actually read characters in some encoding, binary mode will strictly read bytes (as ASCII characters?)
2015-07-06T15:56:11Z taylanub: oh right, there's read/write-u8 for bytes
2015-07-06T15:57:03Z taylanub: ecraven: read/write-char don't work on binary ports, read/write-u8 don't work on text ports, from what I'm reading...
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2015-07-06T21:52:19Z teurastaja: hey. im wondering how to implement a generalized permutation tree generator algorithm, preferably in r7rs
2015-07-06T21:52:44Z teurastaja: unless there is one available that i havent considered?
2015-07-06T21:53:45Z teurastaja: id use it to generate permutations of lists of digits
2015-07-06T21:54:05Z teurastaja: lists are same length
2015-07-06T21:54:45Z teurastaja: *all permutations
2015-07-06T21:55:59Z teurastaja: something like haskells "permutations"
2015-07-06T21:58:29Z teurastaja: ok let me restate from 0: id like a function that takes a list of objects and computes all possible permutations
2015-07-06T21:59:02Z teurastaja: any ideas for an efficient algorithm in scheme?
2015-07-06T21:59:23Z teurastaja: the output is a list of all permutations
2015-07-06T21:59:41Z Riastradh: foof had a nice implementation of that somewhere, if I recall correctly...
2015-07-06T21:59:51Z teurastaja: hmm...
2015-07-06T22:00:05Z teurastaja: should be in a standard library then
2015-07-06T22:00:28Z teurastaja: where is it?
2015-07-06T22:00:39Z teurastaja: how does it do it?
2015-07-06T22:00:58Z teurastaja: *how does it work?
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2015-07-06T22:02:14Z teurastaja: because this is not a lazy language i cant rely on haskell code for that and im not so good in haskell
2015-07-06T22:03:19Z teurastaja: and my whole code is in scheme so i wont import haskell code and i want to understand how it works
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2015-07-06T22:11:15Z teurastaja: im pondering perhaps im writing a solution for that but it may suck
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2015-07-06T23:11:49Z turtleman_: i have been using my port of srfi-49 for a day now, and i havent run into any new bugs
2015-07-06T23:11:56Z turtleman_: so far so good :)
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2015-07-06T23:12:16Z turtleman_: i expressions are growing on me
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2015-07-07T06:50:24Z em: I love scheme.
2015-07-07T06:51:10Z ecraven: em: we all do :)
2015-07-07T06:51:23Z em: :)
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2015-07-07T17:01:17Z ecraven: nice, it's not too hard to get slime to display images in the repl from mit/gnu scheme :)
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2015-07-07T17:49:12Z names: dan64 mrowe_away hive-mind jewel_ taylanub rx80 niklasl synthmeat araujo fadein tessier juanfra mlaine NaNDude oldskirt fikusz foof haroldwu Blkt_ z0d Kruppe EnergyCoffee DGASAU akkad rsforest gf3 cmatei amoe b4283 fionnan kbtr_ r0kc4t_ mlamari_ saul copec bdawn pjdelport Neet greghendershott clog zacts keemyb ecraven tristero LeoNerd yosafbridge nowhereman_ scoofy benaiah arrubin torpig GGMethos cky ELLIOTTCABLE haasn abbe ec\_ mikeyhc xfz twem2 cdidd_
2015-07-07T17:49:12Z names: dmiles_afk narendraj9 micro^ ft chazu Saeren klutometis Gianormagantrous ozzloy henrytill Khisanth dpk mark_weaver disciple pecg tm512 averell Razz dsp ski vikraman s1n4 jyc PinealGlandOptic pchrist cross turbofail mario-goulart fds finnrobi_ SirDayBat fizzie weinholt teiresias ineiros rudybot dualbus fgudin sad0ur vifino ByronJohnson lloda SHODAN cibs erg pygospa nisstyre gnomon m1dnight_ metaf5 diginet low-profile dsp_ eagleflo strmpnk nitrix stux|work
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2015-07-07T17:49:15Z contrapunctus: also...wow. I didn't know MIT/GNU Scheme was still active!
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2015-07-08T03:01:09Z jusss: I'm so tired to choose which implement is best
2015-07-08T03:01:16Z jusss: guile or racket
2015-07-08T03:04:36Z ijp: flip a coin
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2015-07-08T03:06:22Z jusss: ijp: why there's no common library for scheme
2015-07-08T03:06:56Z jusss: same function, not same function nams
2015-07-08T03:07:06Z jusss: names
2015-07-08T03:07:08Z ijp: because we all secretely hate scheme and want it to fail
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2015-07-08T03:08:40Z jusss: why ? cl is better ?
2015-07-08T03:08:59Z ijp: not really
2015-07-08T03:09:08Z jyc_: i'm actually working for the bash developers
2015-07-08T03:09:17Z jyc_: trying to sabotage scheme
2015-07-08T03:09:39Z jyc_:  /s
2015-07-08T03:10:20Z jyc_: actually though, what libraries with the same function but different function names are you having problems with?
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2015-07-08T03:11:03Z jusss: I use python usually, but too much error in python
2015-07-08T03:11:32Z jyc_: not sure how you expect to get fewer errors in scheme :)
2015-07-08T03:12:23Z jusss: does scheme have few side-effect ?
2015-07-08T03:12:48Z jyc_: the purpose of all computer programs is side-effects
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2015-07-08T03:14:36Z jusss: now I'm attracted by delimit continuation
2015-07-08T03:15:20Z jusss: but there're guile racket OCaml Scala and scheme48 support it
2015-07-08T03:17:11Z jyc_: OCaml has delimited control support?
2015-07-08T03:20:32Z jusss: yes
2015-07-08T03:20:35Z pjb: jusss: that's why I finally selected Common Lisp: there's much less difference between CL implementations, and you can actually write real programs that can run on different CL implementations.
2015-07-08T03:21:37Z jusss: pjb: but does cl support delimit continuation?
2015-07-08T03:23:20Z ijp: no
2015-07-08T03:23:33Z ijp: and never will
2015-07-08T03:28:40Z pjb: delimited yes, thru libraries.
2015-07-08T03:29:40Z pjb: ijp: actually, I don't see why a CL implemented in scheme couldn't have a scheme:call/cc opertor.
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2015-07-08T03:33:26Z ijp: proprietary extensions aren't common lisp
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2015-07-08T03:34:46Z pjb: ijp: you don't need to use them to write useful CL programs.
2015-07-08T03:35:47Z ijp: which is neither here nor there
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2015-07-08T05:54:02Z h1fuelcell: Guys, in the welcome message for this channel, there appears to be an extra '
2015-07-08T05:54:05Z h1fuelcell: Is that a typo?
2015-07-08T05:54:23Z h1fuelcell: (map surf-to '("http://paste.lisp.org/new/scheme" should be (map surf-to ("http://paste.lisp.org/new/scheme" right?
2015-07-08T05:54:23Z ijp: no
2015-07-08T05:54:35Z h1fuelcell: Okay much to learn then :D
2015-07-08T05:54:40Z ijp: 'foo = (quote foo)
2015-07-08T05:54:43Z jyc: error, "http://paste.lisp.org/new/scheme" is not a procedure
2015-07-08T05:55:27Z ijp: rudybot: (cons 1 2)
2015-07-08T05:55:27Z rudybot: ijp: your sandbox is ready
2015-07-08T05:55:28Z rudybot: ijp: ; Value: '(1 . 2)
2015-07-08T05:55:30Z ijp: rudybot: '(cons 1 2)
2015-07-08T05:55:30Z rudybot: ijp: ; Value: '(cons 1 2)
2015-07-08T05:56:44Z h1fuelcell: Two new keywords learnt
2015-07-08T05:58:20Z zacts: hello
2015-07-08T05:58:25Z ecraven: hey
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2015-07-08T06:03:08Z h1fuelcell: Those are not the two keywords I learnt
2015-07-08T06:04:07Z ecraven: what would you call a "keyword" in Scheme
2015-07-08T06:04:49Z h1fuelcell: well cons and map are probably functions right?
2015-07-08T06:05:15Z h1fuelcell: I would call something a "keyword" when it is a well known term that does a well-recognized thing across many programmers' minds
2015-07-08T06:05:31Z h1fuelcell: perhaps with different implementations but the result always being the same...
2015-07-08T06:06:25Z zacts: hi
2015-07-08T06:06:30Z ecraven: h1fuelcell: that seems to be a strange definition of keyword :)
2015-07-08T06:06:32Z zacts: I can't make up my mind
2015-07-08T06:06:51Z zacts: learn Haskell first? or (scheme) and SICP first?
2015-07-08T06:06:56Z ijp: flip a coin
2015-07-08T06:07:00Z zacts: eventually I want to learn both, mainly SICP
2015-07-08T06:07:04Z h1fuelcell: It's probably a "wrong" definition too ecraven :)
2015-07-08T06:08:03Z zacts: Would it be more beneficial to think in a more functional way initially?
2015-07-08T06:08:10Z zacts: but SICP kind of does this approach right?
2015-07-08T06:08:18Z zacts: they start without set!, until at least ch3 I think
2015-07-08T06:08:42Z zacts: so my idea, very likely naive, was that Haskell seemed pure functional
2015-07-08T06:08:54Z zacts: so why not learn it first, to grok functional, and then go from there?
2015-07-08T06:08:59Z h1fuelcell: zacts: set a goal to do learn both within a month (learnyouhaskell and SICP) then there's no dilemma
2015-07-08T06:09:09Z ijp: it is purely functional, for an unhelpful notion of pure
2015-07-08T06:09:25Z zacts: h1fuelcell: that's unrealistic for me
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2015-07-08T06:09:39Z h1fuelcell: I know, it will be hard, it's probably impossible
2015-07-08T06:09:44Z zacts: but I assume your are joking, or pretend trolling me.
2015-07-08T06:09:46Z h1fuelcell: but at least you won't be paralyzed by choice
2015-07-08T06:09:48Z zacts: ah yeah
2015-07-08T06:09:51Z h1fuelcell: No that's what I'd do
2015-07-08T06:10:15Z ecraven: zacts: there is a rather big difference between "mostly functional but imperative if needed" and "purely functional" in achieving results
2015-07-08T06:10:26Z ecraven: haskell can be a bit ... daunting
2015-07-08T06:10:53Z zacts: well, how about this. I can't go wrong with SICP really
2015-07-08T06:10:57Z zacts: so maybe I'll start there
2015-07-08T06:11:04Z ijp: well, you can
2015-07-08T06:11:08Z zacts: oh yeah?
2015-07-08T06:11:18Z zacts: how can I go wrong with SICP?
2015-07-08T06:11:19Z ecraven: I'd agree, SICP is a good start
2015-07-08T06:11:45Z ecraven: also, don't worry too much, the more you learn the better, doesn't matter so much where you start
2015-07-08T06:12:05Z h1fuelcell: ^
2015-07-08T06:12:16Z h1fuelcell: I wasted too much time wondering these things zacts
2015-07-08T06:12:26Z zacts: ok
2015-07-08T06:12:28Z zacts: coolio
2015-07-08T06:12:32Z h1fuelcell: just pick up something until you've finished or you're bored
2015-07-08T06:12:39Z h1fuelcell: then do something else
2015-07-08T06:12:47Z h1fuelcell: you'll be better off from when you started ;D
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2015-07-08T15:37:02Z contrapunctus: o/
2015-07-08T15:37:41Z contrapunctus: Is there any way to use random numbers in a function while maintaining referential transparency?
2015-07-08T15:39:24Z wasamasa: I doubt they'd be random if there were a way
2015-07-08T15:40:24Z ronh: contrapunctus sure there is, just have the function accept the seed and return a new seed and a pseudo-random value
2015-07-08T15:40:38Z taylanub: you can turn ((lambda () (random))) into (random) without having the semantics change, but you can't turn ((lambda (x) (+ x x)) (random)) into (+ (random) (random)), so I suppose this means the 'random' procedure isn't referentially transparent.
2015-07-08T15:40:40Z contrapunctus: (I asked a Haskell user, and they gave a response which made no sense to me outside of "in Haskell, yes, in Scheme, no" (if anything, I was surprised there was no parting "nyah nyah nyah".))
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2015-07-08T15:41:27Z ronh: that's how haskell random* functions work. random*IO functions are just convenience wrappers around them that keep updating a seed stored in a top-level IORef
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2015-07-08T15:46:08Z taylanub: ronh: which makes it practically referentially opaque anyway, unless you can do whole-program analysis, no?
2015-07-08T15:50:10Z ronh: are you talking about random or randomIO? for the same seed taken as input random will always return the same seed and pseudo-random value
2015-07-08T15:50:54Z ronh: you use it by threading the seed manually
2015-07-08T15:54:01Z contrapunctus: ronh: 'threading'?
2015-07-08T15:55:58Z ronh: you pass the initial seed, and then on the next call pass the seed that random function returned
2015-07-08T15:56:30Z contrapunctus: I see...
2015-07-08T15:56:52Z contrapunctus: ronh: is that actually how it's done in Haskell? Sounds pretty roundabout...
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2015-07-08T16:04:13Z ronh: contrapunctus that's how random function (and related functions) work. and, as I mentioned, there are convenience wrappers around those pure functions that do pretty much what other languages do, keep a global seed state that is updated on each call
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2015-07-08T16:06:03Z ronh: there are also other approaches in third party haskell libraries that combine the two aspects (purity and convenience), but we're probably getting a bit offtopic. :P
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2015-07-08T16:08:19Z pennny2: what scheme implementation is usually recommended to get started with on windows?
2015-07-08T16:08:29Z contrapunctus: Cool, thanks, ronh . I'll try writing something like that, if it's not there already.
2015-07-08T16:08:30Z pennny2: i want to ho through sicp
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2015-07-08T16:48:15Z jyc: pennny2: Racket has good support for windows.
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2015-07-08T20:16:05Z ecraven: http://www.nexoid.at/tmp/slime-media.jpg
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2015-07-08T20:42:54Z Riastradh: Heh, cute.
2015-07-08T20:45:22Z ecraven: Riastradh: indeed :) and eventually maybe even useful
2015-07-08T20:47:07Z ecraven: Riastradh: the only way to get patches into MIT/GNU Scheme is sending them to the mailing list, right? I have a few fixes for typos in the documentation
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2015-07-08T20:55:15Z Riastradh: ecraven: You can run them by me here, but if I forget about them, best to file a Savannah bug so they don't get completely lost.
2015-07-08T20:55:26Z Riastradh: (Every once in a while someone crawls through the bugs and handles them.)
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2015-07-08T21:04:59Z ecraven: Riastradh: can I send you git patches against head directly?
2015-07-08T21:06:04Z Riastradh: Sure.
2015-07-08T21:06:18Z ecraven: thanks, I'll probably only manage tomorrow, though :-/
2015-07-08T21:06:29Z ecraven: I have a lot of changes to swank.el, however some of them are rather hackish :-/
2015-07-08T21:07:02Z ecraven: but I have mostly implemented the trace dialog, a lot more inspection, the image thing, basic fuzzy completion, and some other things :)
2015-07-08T21:08:30Z ecraven: just out of interest, assuming I wanted to look at an ARM backend, where would I start? the compiler, adding a new arm backend?
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2015-07-08T21:12:48Z Riastradh: ecraven: Need compiler/machines/arm, microcode/cmpauxmd/arm.s (or arm.m4), microcode/cmpintmd/arm.h, and maybe some little stuff in microcode/fasl.h and microcode/cmpint.h.
2015-07-08T21:13:46Z ecraven: thanks!
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2015-07-08T21:47:08Z ecraven: Riastradh: also, are there any plans to support r7rs as far as feasible? a lot is just adding optional parameters to existing functions (or shadowing them in a package (scheme r7rs) or similar)
2015-07-08T21:47:26Z ecraven: or in other words, would such patches (segregated in a separate package) be possibly accepted?
2015-07-08T21:48:06Z Riastradh: Not planned.  If you want to submit patches, feel free.
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2015-07-09T04:18:05Z ajnirp: hello #scheme
2015-07-09T04:18:18Z ajnirp: apologies in advance for the text dump, i'm copying my question from #guile
2015-07-09T04:18:37Z ajnirp: so i have a bit of a situation
2015-07-09T04:18:41Z ajnirp: the second course taught to CS students in my university is named 'abstractions and paradigms in programming' and it's basically the whole functional programming 101 experience
2015-07-09T04:18:43Z ajnirp: traditionally it has consisted of scheme (racket, to be precise), with maybe a little prolog tacked on at the tail-end of the course
2015-07-09T04:18:46Z ajnirp: the idea is to expose students to other paradigms and while it's not exactly CS 101 (that's the first course) it is in some sense similar to the now-discontinued MIT scheme courses
2015-07-09T04:18:50Z ajnirp: the recommended course textbook is even SICP, for context
2015-07-09T04:18:52Z ajnirp: now the undergraduate committe is proposing to replace scheme with c++, arguing that students are more familiar with c++ anyway (the CS 101 course uses that, and changing THAT is non-negotiable)
2015-07-09T04:18:55Z ajnirp: i'm in the middle of an email thread with a couple of other batchmates (i just graduated, and this is a second-semester/first-year course) discussing this with the professor who's slated to teach the course next semester
2015-07-09T04:18:58Z ajnirp: he just asked us each to give an example of a program that is "better written in scheme than in c++"
2015-07-09T04:19:00Z ajnirp: i guess he basically wants us to make a case for scheme
2015-07-09T04:19:02Z ajnirp: the request is somewhat vaguely worded, but i have *some* ideas in mind
2015-07-09T04:19:08Z ajnirp: and i was wondering if any of you could help me out with your own suggestions for programs that are "better written" in scheme than in c++
2015-07-09T04:19:10Z ajnirp: if anyone is interested, i could upload the draft in which the committee lays out its proposals for the course
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2015-07-09T04:52:55Z wasamasa: ajnirp: maybe you should just put template madness next to syntax-rules and let them decide which is more comprehensible
2015-07-09T04:53:42Z ajnirp: so basically, a program that is heavy on procedural macros and for which the equivalent c++ program requires heavy usage of templates?
2015-07-09T04:54:17Z wasamasa: another problem I see with C++ is that it can get so complicated only a compiler can tell how it's parsed correctly
2015-07-09T04:54:26Z wasamasa: whereas in scheme parsing is trivial
2015-07-09T04:54:48Z wasamasa: so, generally going meta
2015-07-09T04:55:10Z ajnirp: right, self-hosting... scheme-based scheme interpreters are easier to write than c++-based c++ compilers
2015-07-09T04:55:33Z wasamasa: there are people who solved the first chapters of SICP with C++ I've heard :P
2015-07-09T04:55:46Z wasamasa: but they've had to skip out on the metacircular interpreter for obvious reasons
2015-07-09T04:55:48Z ajnirp: o_O
2015-07-09T04:56:10Z ajnirp: i'm definitely going to talk about the parsing/lexing aspect
2015-07-09T04:56:15Z wasamasa: yeah
2015-07-09T04:56:41Z wasamasa: it did click for me when I was demonstrated how easy it was to write a program that parsed and evaluated basic maths
2015-07-09T04:56:56Z ajnirp: any other suggestions? a program i like to write whenever i'm exploring a new language is peter norvig's spelling corrector http://norvig.com/spell-correct.html
2015-07-09T04:57:05Z wasamasa: I also got recursion
2015-07-09T04:57:30Z wasamasa: because it's the way to do everything you'd normally iterate with dedicated loop forms for
2015-07-09T04:57:30Z ajnirp: i could maybe argue that such a program is easier to do in a more expressive, higher-level language
2015-07-09T04:57:45Z ajnirp: right
2015-07-09T04:57:59Z wasamasa: generally adapting the language for a specific paradigm is
2015-07-09T04:58:08Z wasamasa: that was the reason scheme was chosen for that MIT course, no?
2015-07-09T04:58:47Z ajnirp: i wouldn't know, sorry. i'm not even from the US
2015-07-09T05:00:32Z wasamasa: http://stackoverflow.com/questions/22539313/how-can-i-solve-sicp-2-4-in-c11
2015-07-09T05:00:32Z rudybot: http://teensy.info/MRYYKr3fBT
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2015-07-09T05:03:37Z ajnirp: ouch
2015-07-09T05:04:14Z wasamasa: the general development experience is different
2015-07-09T05:04:26Z wasamasa: on the one hand you have a repl and can layer abstractions endlessly
2015-07-09T05:04:44Z wasamasa: on the other you have a compiler and get fun error messages whenever you attempt starting to do abstractions :P
2015-07-09T05:05:28Z wasamasa: I prefer C for that reason, it doesn't pretend to be magic fairy dust and is a good complement to scheme
2015-07-09T05:06:41Z ajnirp: i've brought up the repl issue in a previous email in the thread
2015-07-09T05:07:00Z ajnirp: the issue is he seems to want a specific program that is "better" in scheme than in c++
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2015-07-09T05:14:05Z wasamasa: well, as long as you don't write a driver or a raytracer...
2015-07-09T05:14:09Z wasamasa: anything should be fine really
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2015-07-09T05:34:55Z ajnirp: right
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2015-07-09T05:55:20Z Niac:  (define (reverse word)
2015-07-09T05:55:21Z Niac:         (cond ((= (length word) 1) word)
2015-07-09T05:55:21Z Niac:         (else (cons (reverse (cdr word)) (car word)))
2015-07-09T05:55:21Z Niac: )
2015-07-09T05:55:21Z Niac: )
2015-07-09T05:56:35Z Niac: there is something wrong with (length word)
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2015-07-09T06:05:50Z ajnirp: string-length might be what you need
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2015-07-09T06:37:40Z dripping_nut: holy hell SICP is boring. it has to be the most boring text i've ever read in my life... and people call this an introductory text? yuck.
2015-07-09T06:37:50Z dripping_nut: overly flowery, technical text with diction not at all akin to a prototypical beginner is NOT a good introduction to compsci.
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2015-07-09T06:43:02Z eli: ajnirp: sounds like an uphill battle -- there are always people who would love to kick out anything that looks like a lisp
2015-07-09T06:43:12Z eli: MIT is itself a case of that, now
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2015-07-09T06:43:35Z eli: But switching to C++ instead of a modern language is just insane
2015-07-09T06:44:02Z ajnirp: eli: my university has been doing racket for quite a few years, the switch to c++ is being justified since that's the CS101 language
2015-07-09T06:44:25Z eli: Yeah, I saw that -- if anything, C++ is even more insane for a 101 course.
2015-07-09T06:44:52Z ajnirp: it's the norm here in india anyway
2015-07-09T06:45:02Z eli: You could find a bunch of examples, but at some point it might be better to shoot for a {}-ish language that is more functional
2015-07-09T06:45:23Z eli: Like javascript -- which is even more popular than C++, and certainly more pleasant to work with.
2015-07-09T06:45:26Z ajnirp: i like it, you get to understand how compiling and linking and stuff works right from the get-go instead of having stuff hiden awayt from you by using a more high-level language
2015-07-09T06:45:42Z eli: That's not really a good point.
2015-07-09T06:46:04Z eli: If you want *that*, then C is doing a better job as a very thin layer on top of assembly
2015-07-09T06:46:27Z ajnirp: true, but C's standard lib is much smaller than C++'s
2015-07-09T06:46:36Z ajnirp: it's nice to have <vector> <string> <map> and all the rest
2015-07-09T06:46:43Z eli: C++, OTOH, adds piles of syntactic junk, and adds more obscure semantics and weird compilation strategies -- so you're really not close enough to the metal as you are in C
2015-07-09T06:46:56Z ajnirp: agreed, it's a compromise ultimately
2015-07-09T06:47:24Z eli: For the high level stuff, C++ loses against pretty much all modern language if only by it's size of syntactic baggage.
2015-07-09T06:48:00Z eli: Anyway, for examples that work better in Scheme, you can look into almost anything in SICP and the equivalent C++ code will be horrifying.
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2015-07-09T06:48:34Z eli: You can also use other ideas for functional code -- in all functional languages
2015-07-09T06:48:34Z ajnirp: i haven't read sicp in a while, i should go do that
2015-07-09T06:49:14Z eli: For example, some balanced tree -- in C++ it's a pointer-banging nightmare, and in a functional language it's a much easier pattern-matching thing
2015-07-09T06:49:45Z eli: Another direction that you can try is to talk about the more highlevel batteries stuff --
2015-07-09T06:50:28Z eli: For example, with Racket it's really easy to do GUI things (and it's completely portable), and it's very easy to write a tiny TCP server
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2015-07-09T06:51:08Z eli: And finally, you should avoid macro-based arguments -- it's obviously an area that Scheme (and Racket more so) beats anything else,
2015-07-09T06:51:24Z ajnirp: avoid, why?
2015-07-09T06:51:36Z eli: but "macros" is something that anti-lisp people would argue is not needed, so you'll lose that direction fast
2015-07-09T06:51:55Z eli: And actually in a university course, they're probably right since macros are very rarely done in such courses.
2015-07-09T06:52:21Z ajnirp: true, they weren't covered in mine
2015-07-09T06:53:38Z eli: Exactly -- so just bringing up macros will lead to an easy way out (for him): "that's a very good point, but we don't do/need/want macros, so if *that's* the main point then we should go with C++"
2015-07-09T06:54:10Z eli: (And that's not guessing -- I've seen scheme/racket/lisp bashed in exactly that way *many* times.)
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2015-07-09T06:57:35Z ajnirp: https://usercontent.irccloud-cdn.com/file/3ypXX8BD/review.pdf
2015-07-09T06:57:41Z ajnirp: for context, here's the report
2015-07-09T06:58:19Z ajnirp: among other things, it says that "On the other hand, there are substantial deep and superficial differences between Scheme and C++ that students will have difficulty in transferring what is learnt in Scheme into general programming practice."
2015-07-09T06:58:44Z ajnirp: which confuses me, because c'mon Scheme isn't a toy programming language. programming in Scheme IS general programming
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2015-07-09T08:40:15Z renzhuonihao_: I have a proble
2015-07-09T08:40:24Z renzhuonihao_: When I read SICP
2015-07-09T08:40:32Z renzhuonihao_: the exercise 3.9
2015-07-09T08:40:52Z renzhuonihao_: here is my code
2015-07-09T08:41:32Z renzhuonihao_: (define (f x)
2015-07-09T08:41:33Z renzhuonihao_:   (let ((ct 0)
2015-07-09T08:41:33Z renzhuonihao_: 	(pt 0))
2015-07-09T08:41:33Z renzhuonihao_:     (begin
2015-07-09T08:41:33Z renzhuonihao_:       (set! pt (+ pt ct))
2015-07-09T08:41:34Z renzhuonihao_:       (if (= x 1)
2015-07-09T08:41:36Z renzhuonihao_: 	  (set! ct (+ 1 ct))
2015-07-09T08:41:38Z renzhuonihao_: 	  "x is not 1")
2015-07-09T08:41:40Z renzhuonihao_:       pt)))
2015-07-09T08:41:42Z renzhuonihao_: it does not work
2015-07-09T08:41:48Z renzhuonihao_: i don't know why
2015-07-09T08:42:41Z wasamasa: I'm not sure what this function is supposed to solve in the first place
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2015-07-09T08:44:05Z renzhuonihao_: wait a moment
2015-07-09T08:44:45Z renzhuonihao_: Define a
2015-07-09T08:44:46Z renzhuonihao_: simple procedure f such that evaluating (+ (f 0) (f 1)) will return 0 if the arguments to + are
2015-07-09T08:44:46Z renzhuonihao_: evaluated from left to right but will return 1 if the arguments are evaluated from right to left.
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2015-07-09T08:56:45Z wasamasa: .___.
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2015-07-09T11:19:25Z ecraven: hehe, how is this not obviously better in C++ than in Scheme?
2015-07-09T11:19:26Z ecraven: auto car = [](auto func) { return func( [](auto a, auto b) { return a; } ); };
2015-07-09T11:19:27Z ecraven: auto cdr = [](auto func) { return func( [](auto a, auto b) { return b; } ); };
2015-07-09T11:19:28Z ecraven: auto cons = [](auto a, auto b) { return [=](auto func) { return func(a, b); }; };
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2015-07-09T18:27:45Z scheming-pony: Hello.
2015-07-09T18:28:16Z scheming-pony: Is it possible to do non-GC memory management in Scheme?
2015-07-09T18:30:17Z scheming-pony: That's a bit of a general question, but I was looking at using
2015-07-09T18:32:06Z scheming-pony: Scheme as a system language.
2015-07-09T18:33:36Z scheming-pony: Instead of C.
2015-07-09T18:34:30Z scheming-pony: Which leads to the more specific question,
2015-07-09T18:34:48Z scheming-pony: Is Scheme suitable for a system language?
2015-07-09T18:35:23Z LeoNerd: Define "system language"
2015-07-09T18:36:13Z scheming-pony: A language upon which one builds operating systems.
2015-07-09T18:36:38Z scheming-pony: Like C.
2015-07-09T18:37:43Z scheming-pony: Or, less portably, machine (assembly) language.
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2015-07-09T18:46:11Z scheming-pony: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/System_programming_language
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2015-07-09T18:48:06Z scheming-pony: Looks like many of the "Major Languages" are Algol based.
2015-07-09T18:48:16Z scheming-pony: There is "PreScheme"...
2015-07-09T18:48:48Z scheming-pony: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PreScheme
2015-07-09T18:51:35Z scheming-pony: Never ceases to amaze me how much IRC is like a "reflection pool" for contemplation.
2015-07-09T18:51:39Z scheming-pony: Thank you.
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2015-07-09T19:51:53Z eli: ajnirp: I read one random blurb there, which was spectacularly bogus, in a way that could almost be considered as twisting the reality to fit the writer's bias -- and that's not even the one you pointed at.
2015-07-09T19:52:26Z eli: If that's what you're trying to fight, then it looks like a horse that is already dead.
2015-07-09T19:52:30Z ajnirp: i know all three of the professors, and i'm inclined to believe any silly blurbs are more ignorance than bias
2015-07-09T19:52:34Z ajnirp: which blurb, though?
2015-07-09T19:52:47Z eli: Just a second, I'll look for it again
2015-07-09T19:53:17Z eli: The paragraph starting with "The situation is more complex when we consider assignment statements."
2015-07-09T19:53:30Z eli: And how it relates to the preceding one.
2015-07-09T19:53:50Z eli: It reads to me like they're saying that the substitution model is very simple -- nice and algebraic
2015-07-09T19:54:02Z eli: Which is very true (and HtDP takes that approach to an extreme)
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2015-07-09T19:54:33Z eli: But then -- IIUC -- they're claiming that adding assignment complicates Scheme much more than C++ because ... you lose the substitution model??
2015-07-09T19:55:07Z ajnirp: that's how i'm reading it too
2015-07-09T19:56:30Z eli: (Sorry, session breakage, I'm tying in Israel on a machine in Boston)
2015-07-09T19:56:49Z eli: Anyway, if that's what they're saying then it sounds like more than just ignorance
2015-07-09T19:57:04Z eli: The thing is that you cannot even dream about something as simple as the substitution model in C++
2015-07-09T19:57:04Z ajnirp: even if we accept that scheme becomes more complicated as a result, i still don't see why that's a good reason to abandon teaching the language itself
2015-07-09T19:57:32Z eli: Just like in C, you start with assignment as being your main tool -- so the whole nicely pure and algebraic view is impossible
2015-07-09T19:57:58Z ajnirp: right, in scheme you have the convenience of using assignments if you really must
2015-07-09T19:58:00Z pjb: I guess it's math-envy: some CS teachers would still dream to be math teachers?
2015-07-09T19:58:08Z eli: On the other hand, in Scheme you have the ability to *start* with the substitution model, and use it as much as possible which helps students
2015-07-09T19:58:35Z eli: And *then* you proceed to environments -- and at that point assignment becomes trivial.
2015-07-09T19:58:55Z ajnirp: pjb: heh. one of the three does theoretical CS (algorithms to be precise) so i don't think that's a fair assumption
2015-07-09T19:59:11Z ajnirp: eli: this is a good point, i should raise this as well
2015-07-09T19:59:13Z pjb: After all, students have at least ten years of maths behind them, so going gradually from math functions to lambda calculus to scheme with substitution model and eventually scheme with mutation leaves them in familiar terrain for a longer time.
2015-07-09T19:59:16Z eli: That is, trivial to understand -- the effect on the language is still a substantial complication, but it's a complication that is inherently part of C++
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2015-07-09T20:00:02Z pjb: I guess we could as well introduce state mathematically, ie. thru monads, before teaching programming :-)
2015-07-09T20:00:16Z eli: pjb: He's talking about the opposite problem: trying to switch to C++ because that's what gets used in the real world.
2015-07-09T20:00:35Z pjb: Bah, the real world…
2015-07-09T20:00:57Z pjb: And C and C++ are losing market shares, with all the new dynamic programming languages like javascript python and ruby.
2015-07-09T20:01:13Z eli: ajnirp: Thre is a nice little idea that makes that point easy: compositionality
2015-07-09T20:01:35Z eli: Basically the fact that you determine the *meaning* of an expression from the meaning of its parts.
2015-07-09T20:01:40Z eli: IOW, you compose meanings.
2015-07-09T20:01:43Z pjb: Not counting the few functional languages like go haskell etc.
2015-07-09T20:02:29Z eli: Assignment breaks that completely: the meaning of "x = x*7" is somehwere between nonexistent by itself, or, for semantics that express mutation, that meaning is pretty much useless by itself.
2015-07-09T20:02:57Z eli: This is exactly why it's a bad idea to teach children languages with mutation and other imperative things
2015-07-09T20:03:09Z eli: It's just much easier to deal with a compositional world.
2015-07-09T20:03:37Z pjb: The current academic situation doesn't seems good to me.  Universities should kind of harden up, and sell technology to corporation for subsistance, instead of being slaves to corporations forming docile workers.
2015-07-09T20:03:49Z eli: Now, when your subject is as involved as PL or some SICP-like course, the win of using a nice compositional language over something more "real world" becomes much more important
2015-07-09T20:04:41Z pjb: eli:  well, sane programming languages do not use = for assignment. They use <- or := or such.
2015-07-09T20:04:49Z ajnirp: eli: true
2015-07-09T20:04:57Z pjb: (set! x (* x 7)) is not the same as x=x*7.
2015-07-09T20:05:15Z pjb: Otherwise, for children, it's very easy to explain mutation since the real world is stateful.
2015-07-09T20:05:23Z eli: ajnirp: BTW, what pjb mentioned there is a strong point for them too, though technical: overall (and I have no concrete pointers), C++ is in a decline, where modern languages are almost all things that allow more functional programming style.
2015-07-09T20:05:56Z pjb: If you have a red cube in a pigeon hole, once you replace it with a blue cube, it's always the same pigeon hole named x, but with a blue cube in it, now.
2015-07-09T20:06:31Z eli: pjb: I don't mind using `=` for both -- as long as people know that binding and assignment are separate things; but of course using it for both makes it a thing that is rarely known.
2015-07-09T20:06:45Z pjb: The real criticism you can do to this stateful aproach, is that it implies a rather limited programming style, the procedural style.
2015-07-09T20:07:28Z ajnirp: eli: for that matter, we really shouldn't be teaching c++ in CS 101 here. but that's a separate debate, outside the influence of the committee.
2015-07-09T20:07:40Z eli: It's possible, kind of, to restrict yourself to bindings only and avoid mutation, but it's hard and artificial, and inconvenient.
2015-07-09T20:08:03Z pjb: Yes, and it may be oblivious to students and code readers.
2015-07-09T20:08:28Z ajnirp: pjb: could you explain the set!/= distinction again?
2015-07-09T20:08:42Z pjb: Haskell, could be a nice first programming language, come to think of it.
2015-07-09T20:08:54Z eli: It's also possible, kind of, to explain the semantics of these imperative things, but it's hard and artificial and inconvenient.  (It's an exercise I went through with my son recently: trying to make him understand that with that imperative block language he's combining descriptions of operations as values.)
2015-07-09T20:08:57Z pjb: ajnirp: set! mutates the variable. = compare two values.
2015-07-09T20:09:20Z pjb: ajnirp: the problem is that = has a meaning long learned in maths, and using this symbol with a different meaning in programs can be confusing.
2015-07-09T20:10:04Z ajnirp: pjb: ah i see, i misread
2015-07-09T20:10:05Z eli: ajnirp: Re 101 -- yes, I completely agree -- C++ should be pushed to some advanced stage where students are more robust when faced with a huge pile of complicated syntax bits.
2015-07-09T20:10:18Z ajnirp: thought you meant set! vs "c++-style ="
2015-07-09T20:10:36Z pjb: And I wouldn't date to teach C++ before teaching students Smalltalk deeply.
2015-07-09T20:10:58Z eli: And re set! vs = -- a good example of this is how ruby tries to used *just* `=` for both creating a binding and mutating it; with the result of messing up scope (their view of "shadowing")
2015-07-09T20:11:01Z pjb: s/date/dare/
2015-07-09T20:11:06Z aeth: pjb: why Smalltalk and not CLOS?
2015-07-09T20:11:07Z ajnirp: maybe it's my mental hardwiring but = is always assignment for me, == is comparison, and when writing scheme i become extra alert when comparing numbers with =
2015-07-09T20:11:39Z pjb: aeth: Smalltalk is simplier and "purer" an OO model. But of course, lisp and CLOS would have to be taught too, for a complete education.
2015-07-09T20:11:59Z eli: ajnirp: Consider the two `=`s in something like function() { var x = 9; x = 99; }
2015-07-09T20:12:18Z eli: The first creates a binding -- it's the equivalent of Scheme's `define` (or `let`)
2015-07-09T20:12:21Z ajnirp: right, binding vs reassignment
2015-07-09T20:12:23Z eli: The second is a `set!`
2015-07-09T20:13:02Z eli: Things are not so simple with: function() { var x; x = 9; x = 99; }
2015-07-09T20:13:29Z eli: You could view the first one as a kind of an initialization, but the second one is more clearly mutation
2015-07-09T20:13:43Z eli: That kind of distinction is sometimes needed when you deal with cycles
2015-07-09T20:14:08Z eli: Which are the SICP-style justifiction for switching from substitution to environments.
2015-07-09T20:14:23Z eli: (I don't remember that for sure, hence the "-style" qualification.)
2015-07-09T20:16:45Z pjb: Nice programming languages distinguish the initialization syntactically:  var x=9; begin x:=99 end;
2015-07-09T20:18:12Z ajnirp: isn't var x; an implicit initialisation?
2015-07-09T20:18:33Z ajnirp: assuming JS, x is initialised to undefined
2015-07-09T20:22:38Z eli: It does, but "undefined" is an attempt at expressing the fact that "this variable exists, but its value does not"
2015-07-09T20:25:36Z ajnirp: yeah true
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2015-07-09T23:15:57Z teurastaja: would implementing haskell's Data.List minus SRFI-1 be a good idea?
2015-07-09T23:16:09Z teurastaja: as a sequel to srfi-1
2015-07-09T23:17:04Z teurastaja: ive written stuff like permutations, rotations etc and i feel implementing haskell's Data.List would be easy
2015-07-09T23:17:24Z teurastaja: good idea? bad? why?
2015-07-09T23:22:06Z teurastaja: anyone here?
2015-07-09T23:24:29Z evhan: I don't know that people are clamouring for a sequel to srfi-1.
2015-07-09T23:24:47Z evhan: A replacement, perhaps.
2015-07-09T23:25:36Z teurastaja: i dont feel like i could compete with srfi-1. its very well written
2015-07-09T23:26:00Z teurastaja: besides, rewritting everything seems pointless
2015-07-09T23:26:38Z teurastaja: when something is modular and works, thou shalt not rewrite it
2015-07-09T23:28:30Z teurastaja: i feel like at least 3-4 functions in Data.List would trim around 75 lines of code in my last program
2015-07-09T23:29:56Z teurastaja: ive seen several reimplementations of some of the functions in Data.List
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2015-07-09T23:30:09Z teurastaja: so i think we could benefit
2015-07-09T23:31:06Z teurastaja: remains to find out which common list operations people use that i havent thought of
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2015-07-09T23:31:45Z teurastaja: for instance, rotations (listing all possible rotations) isnt in any srfi
2015-07-09T23:32:18Z teurastaja: i implemented it with a circular list
2015-07-09T23:33:00Z teurastaja: circular lists tend to accelerate my programs i dont know why
2015-07-09T23:34:33Z teurastaja: but you know... the data structures we implement using lists like queues, stacks, etc... what would go in such an srfi?
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2015-07-09T23:35:19Z teurastaja: the most trivial data structures we use dont have reference implementations
2015-07-09T23:37:01Z teurastaja: i take requests on list-like structures and if i have enough ill write an srfi
2015-07-09T23:38:00Z teurastaja: wont wait for r7rs-large ;)
2015-07-09T23:38:55Z teurastaja: come on people...
2015-07-09T23:41:04Z teurastaja: alright... (call-with-current-continuation programming)
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2015-07-10T18:03:49Z fizixer: I'm trying to understand 'lisp facilitates creation of embedded DSLs'. I see that we can create a lisp DSL using s-expressions which itself is code. However...
2015-07-10T18:03:54Z fizixer: when you need to validate the structure of that DSL, in other words, detect and report syntax errors of that DSL, then the amount of coding overhead in lisp vs any other language is not that different. Am I right?
2015-07-10T18:03:59Z fizixer: by syntax errors I don't mean errors in s-expressions, but errors in the "schema" of the DSL.
2015-07-10T18:07:02Z jyc: what kind of syntax error that is not an error in how the user wrote s-expressions are you thinking of?
2015-07-10T18:08:06Z LeoNerd: Any sort of higher-level semantic error, surely?
2015-07-10T18:08:26Z fizixer: jyc: I shouldn't have said syntax error. More like invalid DSL, which is valid s-expression.
2015-07-10T18:09:34Z jyc: Oh, alright. Well, if you want to provide very helpful error messages, that will probably be a hard problem in any system
2015-07-10T18:09:39Z fizixer: e.g., (paragraphs 'text' (list (listitem 'text') (listitem 'text')) 'text')
2015-07-10T18:10:27Z jyc: In that example, would you say that the paragraphs block should only contain (paragraph ...) ... ?
2015-07-10T18:10:29Z fizixer: but if this is invalid DSL: (paragraphs 'text' (list (listitem 'text')) 'text' (listitem 'text')) even though it's valid code.
2015-07-10T18:10:38Z jyc: Oh, ok.
2015-07-10T18:10:53Z fizixer: because listitem should reside inside a list
2015-07-10T18:13:16Z jyc: Well the coding overhead for verification only would be minimal, as it would be in most languages, I think. Your paragraphs syntax might be implemented by a macro that ends up calling some internal paragraphs procedure with a list of arguments, and that internal procedure would probably check each of the elements of the list to make sure it was something that could be put inside of a paragraphs block, which I
2015-07-10T18:13:17Z jyc: imagine it would have to do in any case
2015-07-10T18:14:40Z jyc: The alternative to that, I suppose, would be to have some sort of type system for your DSL, for compile time verification :)
2015-07-10T18:15:24Z fizixer: hmm
2015-07-10T18:16:25Z jyc: I think that the strength of Lisp/Scheme for creating embedded DSLs would not so much lie in verifying the correctness of things expressed in the DSL, seeing as errors like that in Scheme code itself are probably caught during runtime/compiletime as the standard is not statically typed like OCaml or Haskell
2015-07-10T18:17:52Z jyc: It's probably more in being able to write macros that operate at the level of code on the same structure that all of the normal code is composed of instead of implementing your own AST or using lots of reflection or having macros just be textual substitution, etc.
2015-07-10T18:18:02Z jyc: but there are probably more experienced people who have clearer opinions on that than me
2015-07-10T18:23:47Z fizixer: yeah my type knowledge is not that good. I'm only aware of C/C++ types but I guess OCaml/Haskell type system is more feature rich.
2015-07-10T18:34:19Z contrapunctus: Are there any resources on implementing optional, /portable/ type systems for Lisps (incl. Scheme)? (assuming it is possible?)
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2015-07-10T18:45:28Z teurastaja: is it normal that i get 3 lists with unzip3 but srfi-1 says i should get a list of 3 lists?
2015-07-10T18:46:25Z teurastaja: It looks like multiple values but it cant be: it isnt supported in R7RS gauche
2015-07-10T18:47:26Z teurastaja: If theres anyone at all...
2015-07-10T18:50:02Z jyc: contrapunctus: I know there is Typed Racket, but that is an implementation and is for Racket so maybe that's not the kind of resource you were looking for
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2015-07-10T18:50:38Z teurastaja2: Back (bad connection)
2015-07-10T18:52:05Z teurastaja2: So... Why do i seem to get multiple values with unzip3 but it isnt supported in  r7rs gauche?
2015-07-10T18:52:09Z contrapunctus: jyc: Thank you for your response. I'm aware of Typed Racket, and optional/gradual typing in Chicken Scheme (or SBCL, in CL), but I was thinking of something portable. I suspect that at worst, it is not possible, and at best it might not be very beneficial.
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2015-07-10T18:52:32Z teurastaja2: When i concatenate the 3 resulting lists i get an error because it tries to concatenate the first one only
2015-07-10T18:53:00Z teurastaja2: Contrapunctus: what was your question?
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2015-07-10T18:53:25Z contrapunctus: teurastaja "Are there any resources on implementing optional, /portable/ type systems for Lisps (incl. Scheme)? (assuming it is possible?)"
2015-07-10T18:53:51Z teurastaja2: A typed scheme?
2015-07-10T18:54:03Z teurastaja2: I think it exists
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2015-07-10T18:55:12Z contrapunctus: 'portable'...i.e. implementation independent...
2015-07-10T18:56:00Z teurastaja: Do you mean a standard instead of a single implementation?
2015-07-10T18:56:11Z contrapunctus: ?
2015-07-10T18:56:30Z teurastaja: Because i believe there is a typed scheme written in haskell
2015-07-10T18:56:49Z teurastaja: But its only an implementation
2015-07-10T18:56:55Z contrapunctus: a library which you use in a project to get static type checking regardless of implementation.
2015-07-10T18:57:24Z teurastaja: Use records?
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2015-07-10T18:57:39Z taylanub: do you know what static typing means? :)
2015-07-10T18:57:49Z taylanub: eugh, they left
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2015-07-10T18:59:07Z teurastaja: just reconnected on my laptop. way more stable
2015-07-10T18:59:15Z teurastaja: did you answer anything?
2015-07-10T18:59:17Z taylanub: teurastaja: records don't give one static type checking
2015-07-10T18:59:33Z teurastaja: it does give you tests
2015-07-10T18:59:48Z taylanub: dynamic tests
2015-07-10T19:00:00Z taylanub: i.e. run-time type predicates
2015-07-10T19:00:22Z teurastaja: how about a combination of records and macros?
2015-07-10T19:00:23Z taylanub: a smart compiler might benefit from assertions with type-predicates, though
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2015-07-10T19:01:01Z ecraven: contrapunctus: http://www.nexoid.at/tmp/slime-media.jpg :)
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2015-07-10T19:01:49Z taylanub: teurastaja: I imagine it being maybe barely possible to implement static typing in macros, but of course you will have to write all your code in terms of the weird macros, in essence writing your whole code in an EDSL
2015-07-10T19:02:12Z teurastaja: oh right! message-passing style
2015-07-10T19:02:20Z contrapunctus: [2015 07 11 00:26:49 676837169] <teurastaja> But its only an implementation [2015 07 11 00:26:54 940755360] <contrapunctus> a library which you use in a project to get static type checking regardless of implementation. [2015 07 11 00:27:44 107355385] <contrapunctus> IOW, extend the type system like we extend syntax. [2015 07 11 00:28:59 339209531] <contrapunctus> (if that makes any sense at all)
2015-07-10T19:02:41Z taylanub: and it won't give you the efficiency benefits of static typing unless the macros' outputs are easier for some implementation's compiler to optimize
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2015-07-10T19:03:20Z taylanub: contrapunctus: is the intent getting more effiicency, or language expressiveness?
2015-07-10T19:04:44Z teurastaja: maybe you could define a constructor that takes a symbol that represents the type?
2015-07-10T19:05:05Z contrapunctus: taylanub: ensuring program correctness. but, it'd be a waste if there weren't efficiency gains (and what you said about efficiency is what I alluded to earlier, with "at best it might not be very beneficial")
2015-07-10T19:08:04Z teurastaja: http://c2.com/cgi/wiki?SoftTyping
2015-07-10T19:08:31Z teurastaja: http://community.schemewiki.org/?static-type-systems
2015-07-10T19:11:58Z contrapunctus: thanks, teurastaja !
2015-07-10T19:14:24Z teurastaja: im not sure i understand what srfi-108 does, but perhaps you should check it
2015-07-10T19:16:12Z contrapunctus: hm... taylanub , you went with notabug.org for the SRFIs? o_o'
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2015-07-10T19:21:04Z teurastaja: would using srfi-46 with records and macros work?
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2015-07-10T19:23:32Z teurastaja: if you have "metamacros" and records, one should be able to implement static typing right?
2015-07-10T19:27:01Z taylanub: contrapunctus: no, github
2015-07-10T19:28:19Z teurastaja: metamacros: macros generating macros
2015-07-10T19:31:01Z contrapunctus: taylanub: oh, my bad, that's pretty old (7~8 months)
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2015-07-10T19:34:11Z teurastaja: could one implement static typing with metamacros and records? just curious, and it may answer contrapunctus
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2015-07-10T19:42:36Z taylanub: teurastaja: you would probably end up with what I was saying above: have to write all of your code in some weird EDSL and can't really call your language Scheme anymore
2015-07-10T19:46:33Z Riastradh: Grmble.
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2015-07-10T19:50:50Z Riastradh: (flo:with-trapped-exceptions 0 (lambda () (pp (flo:/ 3e-308 4.))))  ;---> Floating-point underflow
2015-07-10T19:51:06Z Riastradh: (or floating-point inexact result, depending on what CPU and/or OS, apparently)
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2015-07-10T21:24:30Z teurastaja: lets see some action
2015-07-10T21:24:35Z teurastaja: come on guys
2015-07-10T21:24:43Z teurastaja: stir things up!
2015-07-10T21:25:36Z teurastaja: what are you up to?
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2015-07-10T21:36:18Z Riastradh: Banging my head on some (unbelievably) bad numerical computations and writing automatic tests to distinguish good ones from bad ones.
2015-07-10T21:36:55Z teurastaja: and the meaning of your doings?
2015-07-10T21:37:41Z teurastaja: what are you trying to compute?
2015-07-10T21:37:50Z Riastradh: To probabilistically (or perhaps `probably') understand the world.
2015-07-10T21:38:02Z teurastaja: how?
2015-07-10T21:38:57Z Riastradh: Bayesian magic, in this case.
2015-07-10T21:39:23Z teurastaja: explain how you apply it to the universe
2015-07-10T21:40:10Z Riastradh: Mostly trying to debug something I don't understand written by someone who didn't understand how to engineer software.
2015-07-10T21:40:15Z Riastradh: (nor how to do numerical analysis)
2015-07-10T21:41:44Z teurastaja: lol ok. i was thinking you were trying to use programs to interpret Just everything there is and Nothing
2015-07-10T21:43:09Z teurastaja: that would be sexy
2015-07-10T21:43:29Z teurastaja: but debugging isnt sexy at all
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2015-07-10T21:45:29Z Riastradh: Meanwhile, turns out I made a mistake in MIT Scheme's floating-point exception handling code.
2015-07-10T21:45:37Z Riastradh: Haven't been able to figure out what it is.
2015-07-10T21:45:43Z Riastradh: Some exceptions get trapped when they shouldn't.
2015-07-10T21:46:09Z teurastaja: use assertions?
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2015-07-10T21:50:04Z Riastradh: Can't write an assertion for this: the problem is that the CPU is trapping when the CPU state means `don't trap', as far as I can observe with assertions.
2015-07-10T22:03:45Z teurastaja: then write a C extension that provides adequate exception handling
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2015-07-10T22:04:58Z teurastaja: perhaps its using improper continuations?
2015-07-10T22:05:14Z teurastaja: i dont know im just guessing
2015-07-10T22:05:30Z Riastradh: Problem happens in code generated by the native Scheme compiler.
2015-07-10T22:05:40Z Riastradh: C programs exercising the same facilities work fine.
2015-07-10T22:11:23Z teurastaja: then if you dont want to emulate floating point handling with integers i suggest you can change implementations or maybe write it with cps?
2015-07-10T22:13:59Z Riastradh: This isnn't really about floating-point arithmetic or Scheme control flow.
2015-07-10T22:14:07Z Riastradh: It's about conditions under which the CPU itself traps.
2015-07-10T22:14:21Z Riastradh: That, or a bug in the Scheme compiler.
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2015-07-11T00:44:43Z jyc: tried to integrate the tests with the test suite and put them into a patch! sent to mailing list
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2015-07-11T17:40:50Z contrapunctus: where is that expensive person from yesterday?
2015-07-11T17:41:01Z contrapunctus: (...sad attempt at a German pun.)
2015-07-11T17:42:40Z contrapunctus: sounds like MrSpidey got subsumed by MrFlow, the only mention of which I have so far is on http://docs.racket-lang.org/tools/adding-languages.html
2015-07-11T17:43:41Z contrapunctus: but, 'soft typing' was a good lead, quite a few useful hits
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2015-07-11T17:44:59Z contrapunctus: apparently there are soft typing tools for Erlang, as well
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2015-07-11T20:31:42Z teurastaja: is it me or there really is no standard function for deleting the first occurence of something in a list?
2015-07-11T20:32:13Z teurastaja: I see remove and delete in SRFI-1 but neither do that
2015-07-11T20:32:44Z teurastaja: id like something like find but for deletion
2015-07-11T20:32:56Z teurastaja: do i really have to make it myself?
2015-07-11T20:33:16Z teurastaja: or is there some cheap trick with srfi-1?
2015-07-11T20:35:29Z teurastaja: like really... scheme lists are lacking utilities
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2015-07-11T20:38:25Z taylanub: teurastaja: it should be easy in terms of SRFI-1 I think
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2015-07-11T20:39:58Z taylanub: teurastaja: see `span' and `break'
2015-07-11T20:41:29Z teurastaja: yeah... very convenient on an implementation that doesnt support values
2015-07-11T20:41:44Z teurastaja: anything else?
2015-07-11T20:42:01Z taylanub: that's a pretty bad limitation...  I was wrong anyway though, kinda confused ATM, I don't think span/break will help much.
2015-07-11T20:42:16Z taylanub: teurastaja: do you want destructive deletion, or returning a new list with the element removed?
2015-07-11T20:42:31Z teurastaja: functional
2015-07-11T20:42:56Z taylanub: honestly, both are fairly trivial to implement with a simple named-let loop
2015-07-11T20:43:27Z teurastaja: yes but why do i have to implement it in the first place?
2015-07-11T20:43:46Z taylanub: because "removing the first matching element" is perhaps not all that common?
2015-07-11T20:44:10Z teurastaja: we have find for searching
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2015-07-11T20:44:27Z teurastaja: why not have delete-first?
2015-07-11T20:44:46Z teurastaja: delete could even be implemented on top of that
2015-07-11T20:45:10Z teurastaja: how easy is it to modify a finalized srfi?
2015-07-11T20:45:33Z teurastaja: id make a few corrections but not a complete rewrite
2015-07-11T20:48:15Z teurastaja: there are quite a few utilities which i think srfi-1 lacks
2015-07-11T20:50:09Z teurastaja: im kind of angry. i have to switch implementations because it lacks both multiple values and macros but then what limitations will the other implementation have?
2015-07-11T20:51:35Z teurastaja: is sagittarius scheme a good option for r7rs? what are its limitations?
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2015-07-11T20:53:19Z teurastaja: unless someone can tell me when r7rs gauche will get values and macros
2015-07-11T20:53:34Z teurastaja: or another implementation maybe?
2015-07-11T20:54:36Z teurastaja: basically i want a portable and well-supported r7rs implementation. are there more choices than there was a few months ago?
2015-07-11T20:56:05Z teurastaja: it needs to have at least srfi-1, srfi-43 and srfi-27
2015-07-11T20:57:44Z teurastaja: or am i alone using r7rs?
2015-07-11T20:58:32Z taylanub: teurastaja: Chibi maybe
2015-07-11T20:58:59Z taylanub: Scheme standardization is in a bad state.  the biggest implementations haven't implemented R7RS yet.  (Racket, Guile, Chicken, ...)
2015-07-11T21:00:09Z teurastaja: is scheme leaning towards slow death?
2015-07-11T21:03:22Z evhan: taylanub: Guile has finished implementing R7RS, no?
2015-07-11T21:03:25Z taylanub: no, since Racket is huge, Guile is being actively developed and has Guix going, the Chicken community seems small but healthy FWICT, and John Carmack might soon implement some VR scripting stuff that works in Chibi and Racket ...
2015-07-11T21:03:48Z evhan: Anyway, Gauche supports R7RS as well.
2015-07-11T21:03:55Z taylanub: evhan: the features are mostly in place, but the main developer working on it mostly lost interest since it seemed unimportant
2015-07-11T21:04:01Z teurastaja: why would implementations that padded holes in previous standards want to implement r7rs?
2015-07-11T21:04:10Z teurastaja: gauche lacks values and macros!
2015-07-11T21:04:10Z taylanub: IIRC the one missing feature is supporting integers in module name lists, like '(srfi 1)'
2015-07-11T21:04:41Z taylanub: Gauche should indeed work on getting MV and syntax-rules instead of R7RS compliance, if you ask me :\
2015-07-11T21:04:53Z taylanub: (it lacks those if I understand you correctly; I haven't looked into it)
2015-07-11T21:05:01Z taylanub: MV = multiple values
2015-07-11T21:05:26Z teurastaja: it lacks those only in r7rs mode
2015-07-11T21:05:45Z taylanub: huh, why would that be the case?
2015-07-11T21:05:49Z teurastaja: but again... i found a bug that lets some values slip out but not in
2015-07-11T21:06:01Z teurastaja: i dont know
2015-07-11T21:06:28Z teurastaja: gauche is easy. just type gosh -r7 and try to use macros or values
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2015-07-11T21:07:44Z teurastaja: does chibi have good support for srfis etc?
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2015-07-11T21:08:45Z teurastaja: im tired of dodging the use of those essential features
2015-07-11T21:10:10Z teurastaja: tired of fighting against implementations lacking good support of omnipresent features
2015-07-11T21:10:55Z teurastaja: besides... you never know which way your list will get traversed across implementations
2015-07-11T21:11:16Z teurastaja: thanks for the therapy. suggestions?
2015-07-11T21:13:23Z teurastaja: a bit of prozac or valium maybe?
2015-07-11T21:23:46Z taylanub: teurastaja: why are you using R7RS?
2015-07-11T21:24:36Z taylanub: if there isn't some obligation to do so, you could just go with some "big" implementation and presumably be happy.
2015-07-11T21:25:02Z taylanub: though there is no "delete-first" in Guile either AFAIK.  that's really the kind of thing one would trivially implement oneself. :)
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2015-07-12T02:47:28Z mejja: rudybot: long time no see
2015-07-12T02:47:29Z rudybot: mejja: I'm not sure I'd like it in English though.  It's more difficult to follow long descriptions in foreign languages.  Those are often the most difficult to understand parts.
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2015-07-12T04:11:35Z aeth: rudybot: What's your native language?
2015-07-12T04:11:36Z rudybot: aeth: I haven't tried it yet, because their unmetered mirror IS mirrored when using native IPv6.
2015-07-12T04:11:56Z aeth: I am not impressed. Normally rudybot can pass the turing test.
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2015-07-12T09:39:53Z stegman_: hello?
2015-07-12T09:41:45Z stegman_: what would a complete beginner programmer (no prior knowledge) learn from sicp?
2015-07-12T09:42:01Z stegman_: would i completely learn scheme as a "side effect"?
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2015-07-12T13:54:50Z crocket: Is there a scheme language that is largely functional?
2015-07-12T13:54:59Z crocket: like clojure
2015-07-12T13:55:17Z crocket: Every data structure is immutable by default in clojure.
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2015-07-12T14:09:43Z crocket: Is there a good scheme implementation for command line programming?
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2015-07-12T14:10:17Z crocket: Racket sounds nice, but it seems inconsistent due to language building capability.
2015-07-12T14:11:32Z chelseaclinton: crocket: eh?
2015-07-12T14:11:43Z chelseaclinton slaps jkraemer around a bit with a large trout
2015-07-12T14:12:05Z crocket: ok
2015-07-12T14:12:32Z crocket: I want a scheme implementation that has a good build tool like leiningen of clojure.
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2015-07-12T14:38:29Z crocket: really quiet
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2015-07-12T14:42:48Z crocket: It seems chicken scheme has eggs.
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2015-07-12T15:05:20Z crocket: Chicken scheme seems to lack proper documentation.
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2015-07-12T15:09:47Z crocket: chelseaclinton, here
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2015-07-12T16:46:50Z teurastaja: what is this syntax? (((#0=(0 1) #1=(1 0)) (#1# #0#)))
2015-07-12T16:47:02Z teurastaja: where does it come from?
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2015-07-12T16:47:34Z amz3: is there any one who tried snltk ?
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2015-07-12T16:47:58Z teurastaja: im pretty sure i havent used anything thats supposed to give that
2015-07-12T16:48:33Z pjb: teurastaja: some software archeology would be required to know where this syntax comes from.
2015-07-12T16:48:49Z pjb: Isn't it obvious what it is?
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2015-07-12T16:49:13Z teurastaja: reader syntax? what does it mean? shared substructures?
2015-07-12T16:49:22Z pjb: yes.
2015-07-12T16:49:31Z teurastaja: but i havent coded that??
2015-07-12T16:49:44Z teurastaja: what does (((#0=(0 1) #1=(1 0)) (#1# #0#))) mean exactly?
2015-07-12T16:49:51Z pjb: Notably required to write literal circular structures.
2015-07-12T16:49:59Z teurastaja: oh!
2015-07-12T16:50:26Z pjb: #n= takes a reference to the following read object, and #n# reads as a reference of the object #n.
2015-07-12T16:50:28Z teurastaja: and how does that syntax work?
2015-07-12T16:50:41Z pjb: Just like you wrote it!  It is trivially obvious!
2015-07-12T16:50:54Z teurastaja: i never wrote that code
2015-07-12T16:50:55Z pjb: (#1="hello" #1#)
2015-07-12T16:51:08Z pjb: Yes, you wrote: "<teurastaja> what does (((#0=(0 1) #1=(1 0)) (#1# #0#))) mean exactly?"
2015-07-12T16:51:26Z teurastaja: yes but i never wrote with that syntax
2015-07-12T16:51:42Z teurastaja: i did however use circular lists
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2015-07-12T16:52:20Z teurastaja: so... how can we abuse this reader syntax? what can we create with it?
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2015-07-12T16:52:47Z pjb: you can create structures with shared substructures, including circular structures.  Just what you wrote above!
2015-07-12T16:53:03Z pjb: Perhaps you should talk with yourself.
2015-07-12T16:53:08Z teurastaja: lol
2015-07-12T16:53:30Z teurastaja: yes but any slick examples of abusing that?
2015-07-12T16:53:56Z pjb: literal objects are literal.  There's no way of abuse.  They just are.
2015-07-12T16:54:05Z teurastaja: can we create shared multidimensional arrays with that?
2015-07-12T16:54:58Z pjb: Well, there are no multidimensional arrays in r5rs.  But you could build  a list of vectors of vectors with some subvectors shared by several vectors in the list.
2015-07-12T16:55:33Z pjb: (#( #1=(a b c) (1 2 3)) #( (4 5 6) #1#))
2015-07-12T16:57:05Z teurastaja: that code doesnt work
2015-07-12T16:57:25Z pjb: It's not code, it's a literal object!
2015-07-12T16:57:32Z pjb: '(#( #1=(a b c) (1 2 3)) #( (4 5 6) #1#)) ;is code.
2015-07-12T16:57:42Z teurastaja: oh lol my bad
2015-07-12T16:58:06Z pjb: Or: type (read) RET (#( #1=(a b c) (1 2 3)) #( (4 5 6) #1#)) RET
2015-07-12T16:58:29Z teurastaja: what is RET?
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2015-07-12T16:58:36Z teurastaja: oh return
2015-07-12T16:58:51Z pjb: shared structures in code outside of quoted literal objects is a bad idea.  The compiler might work well enough on plain shared code structures, but will most probably fail on circular code.
2015-07-12T17:00:16Z teurastaja: so a #1=(1 2 3) binds (1 2 3) to #1 and also writes it at the same time?
2015-07-12T17:00:23Z pjb: reads it.
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2015-07-12T17:00:40Z pjb: (read) RET #1=(1 2 3) RET reads (1 2 3).
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2015-07-12T17:00:54Z teurastaja: doesnt read and write? im stupid
2015-07-12T17:01:11Z pjb: No, it's the REPL that calls PRINT, not READ.
2015-07-12T17:01:23Z teurastaja: oh true
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2015-07-12T17:04:15Z teurastaja: how do i convert a circular list to a proper list? it used to do it by itself when i "took" a piece of that circular list on another implementation but now its still a circular list :/
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2015-07-12T17:05:26Z pjb: you have to detect the circularity, and when you have, you can enumerate the elements.
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2015-07-12T17:05:34Z pjb: How do you detect the circularity?
2015-07-12T17:06:02Z teurastaja: i just used (take clist n)
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2015-07-12T17:06:38Z pjb: How do you determine n?
2015-07-12T17:06:55Z teurastaja: just a variable. could be any number
2015-07-12T17:07:18Z teurastaja: well... integer
2015-07-12T17:07:27Z pjb: ok, so (take '(a . #1=(b c d e f g h i j k l . #1#)) 3) is good.
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2015-07-12T17:08:33Z pjb: Is it good?
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2015-07-12T17:10:09Z teurastaja: well yes but its a bit of a hack to split that list and recons it. doesnt look natural
2015-07-12T17:10:21Z pjb: what?
2015-07-12T17:10:31Z pjb: How do you detect a circular list?
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2015-07-12T17:10:55Z pjb: Detecting circularity in general sexps needs a more complex algorithm.
2015-07-12T17:11:02Z pjb: But in lists?
2015-07-12T17:11:04Z teurastaja: if i just have a variable named clist and want to extract the first 3 arguments. why cant i do (take clist 3) ?
2015-07-12T17:11:14Z pjb: Because it doesn't work.
2015-07-12T17:11:23Z pjb: 1- what is take?
2015-07-12T17:11:35Z teurastaja: it did in gauche but not in sagittarius...
2015-07-12T17:11:45Z teurastaja: take is defined in srfi-1
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2015-07-12T17:12:56Z pjb: Well, anyways it seems mit-scheme cannot use #n=/#n# to read circular lists.
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2015-07-12T17:23:10Z pjb: So, as I was saying, (take clist 3) is wrong: (take '(a b c d . #0=(b c d e f g h . #0#)) 3) --> (a b c)
2015-07-12T17:23:26Z pjb: So again, how do you detect circular lists?
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2015-07-12T17:29:04Z pjb: If you have a list such as:  a b c d e c d e c d e c d e … how do you know it's circular?
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2015-07-12T17:33:45Z teurastaja: you use circular-list? from srfi-1
2015-07-12T17:34:08Z pjb: does srfi-1 give you a function returning all the elements in a circular list?
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2015-07-12T17:35:34Z teurastaja: not really, it says take works on clists so i was using it on gauche but sagittarius seems more demanding
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2015-07-12T17:35:52Z pjb: So Merlin's not how. How will you do it?
2015-07-12T17:36:05Z pjb: You're not a programmer, I wonder what you're doing here. :-(
2015-07-12T17:36:11Z pjb: s/how/home/
2015-07-12T17:36:11Z teurastaja: me?
2015-07-12T17:36:15Z pjb: Yes.
2015-07-12T17:36:27Z teurastaja: im a hobbyist
2015-07-12T17:36:48Z pjb: Hobbyist train modeler?  Hobbyist flutist?  But not hobbyist programer.
2015-07-12T17:37:20Z teurastaja: i made a sudoku generator in scheme from a solver i made using dancing links
2015-07-12T17:37:26Z teurastaja: all in portable r7rs scheme
2015-07-12T17:37:47Z teurastaja: im a hobbyist but i can read/write about 20 languages
2015-07-12T17:37:51Z pjb: Yes, but you don't seem to be interested in programming at all. Instead you go search calatogs in libraries.
2015-07-12T17:37:53Z chelseaclinton: name them!
2015-07-12T17:38:01Z chelseaclinton: I want to read 20 languages here :-)
2015-07-12T17:38:20Z teurastaja: where do you want that list pasted?
2015-07-12T17:38:23Z pjb: Perhaps you can search the libraries of 20 languages.
2015-07-12T17:38:40Z teurastaja: i also made a brainfuck compiler in about 4 hours in scheme
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2015-07-12T17:39:26Z teurastaja: pjb: does using srfi-1 make me a non-programmer?
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2015-07-12T17:40:04Z teurastaja: i want my code to be portable. is that bad?
2015-07-12T17:41:49Z teurastaja: maybe i havent graduated from MIT or any university at all, but im 2 hours from the 2nd epicenter of scheme in the world: montreal. you owe me respect and obedience ;P
2015-07-12T17:42:05Z pjb: teurastaja: not wanting to write a function to collect the elements of a circular list, and not realizing that (take clisp 3) is not the way to do it makes you a non-programmer.
2015-07-12T17:43:24Z teurastaja: pjb: if you read the description of take in srfi-1, it says you can extract list parts from circular lists with it. Also, it does work properly in gauche scheme
2015-07-12T17:43:31Z teurastaja: not in sagittarius scheme
2015-07-12T17:44:03Z pjb: Is this result: (take '(a b c d . #0=(b c d e f g h . #0#)) 3) --> (a b c)  the correct result?
2015-07-12T17:44:09Z teurastaja: pjb: how do you manage to not use srfi-1?
2015-07-12T17:44:15Z pjb: I'm a programmer.
2015-07-12T17:44:17Z pjb: Is this result: (take '(a b c d . #0=(b c d e f g h . #0#)) 3) --> (a b c)  the correct result?
2015-07-12T17:45:16Z teurastaja: well yes but i didnt use reader syntax in my program anywhere
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2015-07-12T17:49:43Z chelseaclinton: whats a circular list
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2015-07-12T17:52:20Z taylanub: chelseaclinton: a list where the cdr of some cons cell along the list refers to the first cons cell in the list, so when you traverse it by cdring down, you get into a cycle
2015-07-12T17:54:11Z teurastaja: here is my code:
2015-07-12T17:54:13Z teurastaja: http://pastebin.com/ZP3z3mRz
2015-07-12T17:54:48Z chelseaclinton: (defun kirk (list 1 2 3 kirk)) ?
2015-07-12T17:55:57Z teurastaja: you might want to add (scheme base) in the import declaration if you dont run it in an REPL
2015-07-12T17:56:02Z pjb: teurastaja: how does that matter?  (take (append '(a b c d) (ensure-circular-list '(b c d e f g h))) 3) --> (a b c)
2015-07-12T17:56:23Z teurastaja: what is ensure-cirlcular-list ?
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2015-07-12T17:56:34Z pjb: (define (ensure-circular-list l) (set-cdr!  (last-cons l) l) l)
2015-07-12T17:56:35Z teurastaja: *ensure-circular-list
2015-07-12T17:56:51Z pjb: (define (last-cons l) (cond ((null? l) l) ((null? (cdr l)) l) (else (last-cons (cdr l)))))
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2015-07-12T17:57:23Z teurastaja: oh but i use (apply circular-list ls)
2015-07-12T17:58:32Z teurastaja: then i (cdr clist) and (take clist (length ls)) at every rotation
2015-07-12T17:58:32Z pjb: I'm waiting for r7rs before looking at libraries.  So far in scheme each implementation has its own way to load or deal with libraries, so I restrict myself to r5rs.
2015-07-12T17:59:03Z pjb: What ls? You just have a circular list!  How do you compute the lengths of a circular list?
2015-07-12T17:59:26Z teurastaja: ls is the list before i make a circular-list
2015-07-12T17:59:40Z teurastaja: clist is the circular-list
2015-07-12T17:59:46Z pjb: A circular list has two lengths: the length of the stem (contrarily to what you said, the back link is not to the first cons, but to any cons in the list, and therefore there's a prefix that is not circular), and the length of the cycle.
2015-07-12T18:00:11Z pjb: If you have ls then you don't need to compute ls from the circular list!
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2015-07-12T18:01:27Z pjb: Duh, indeed.
2015-07-12T18:01:31Z teurastaja: ok maybe this is more clear: (define ls (list ...)) (define (list->clist ls) (apply circular-list ls)) (define clist (list->clist ls))
2015-07-12T18:02:46Z teurastaja: i did post a link to the code: http://pastebin.com/ZP3z3mRz
2015-07-12T18:03:24Z teurastaja: and its working code in gauche, not in sagittarius
2015-07-12T18:04:42Z pjb: teurastaja: you asked: "<teurastaja> how do i convert a circular list to a proper list?".  Then you refused to write the function to convert a circular list to a properlist.  Then you tell us that you have already the original list!
2015-07-12T18:04:51Z pjb: Just use the fucking ls instead of clist!
2015-07-12T18:07:50Z teurastaja: pjb: sorry for the misunderstanding, but i think my code on pastebin shows what i mean and i believe you are losing your tamper. its not the intent. i use a clist to rotate a list
2015-07-12T18:08:26Z taylanub: chelseaclinton: you can't (define kirk (list a b c kirk)) because the expression '(list a b c kirk)' will be evaluated before the value of 'kirk' is determined, and since it's a function-call expression it will evaluate all the operands including the 'kirk' variable reference (which yet lacks a value)
2015-07-12T18:08:38Z pjb: teurastaja: you should have told that from the start then!
2015-07-12T18:08:43Z teurastaja: the code here: http://pastebin.com/ZP3z3mRz works in gauche scheme but in sagittarius scheme it displays reader syntax instead of proper lists
2015-07-12T18:09:10Z pjb: teurastaja: since making a circular list implies walking the whole list, it's more efficient to rotate the list directly, be it destructively or not.
2015-07-12T18:09:38Z taylanub: (define kirk (list a b c))  (set-cdr! (list-tail kirk 2) kirk)
2015-07-12T18:11:00Z teurastaja: like (define (rotate ls) (define rotate ls . x) (append ls x)) (rotate (cdr ls) (car ls))) ?
2015-07-12T18:11:06Z taylanub: generalized: (define (make-circular! lst) (set-cdr! (list-tail lst (- (length lst) 1)) lst))
2015-07-12T18:11:35Z teurastaja: i use the circular-list because i enumerate all possible rotations
2015-07-12T18:12:42Z teurastaja: so i can recursively (take (cdr clist) n)
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2015-07-12T18:13:27Z teurastaja: the code works in gauche. you think (define (rotate ls) (define rotate ls . x) (append ls x)) (rotate (cdr ls) (car ls))) is more efficient?
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2015-07-12T18:19:35Z teurastaja: is the circular list the way to go for enumerating all rotations of a list or is it better to successively append a list of the car to the cdr?
2015-07-12T18:20:37Z pjb: teurastaja: my rotations: http://paste.lisp.org/+38VB
2015-07-12T18:21:19Z pjb: teurastaja: I told you: you don't need a circular list to enumerate all possible rotations. You just need (append ls ls).
2015-07-12T18:21:41Z pjb: and even, you could spare one cons with: (append (cdr ls) ls)
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2015-07-12T18:22:42Z pjb: with (append (cdr ls) ls) you get: (rotations '(1 2 3 4)) --> ((1 2 3 4) (4 1 2 3) (3 4 1 2) (2 3 4 1))
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2015-07-12T18:31:16Z teurastaja: again.... your code works on gauche but not on sagittarius
2015-07-12T18:31:32Z pjb: why not?
2015-07-12T18:31:37Z pjb: It's plan r5rs scheme.
2015-07-12T18:31:40Z pjb: plain
2015-07-12T18:31:50Z teurastaja: i dont know... yes and its r7rs too
2015-07-12T18:32:07Z pjb: Well, sorry, I hadn't time to read r7rs yet.
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2015-07-12T18:32:59Z teurastaja: Unhandled exception
2015-07-12T18:33:00Z teurastaja:   Condition components:
2015-07-12T18:33:02Z teurastaja:   1. &compile
2015-07-12T18:33:03Z teurastaja:     program: (define (rotations ls) (let ((n (length ls))) (let f ((i n)
2015-07-12T18:33:05Z teurastaja:     source: #f
2015-07-12T18:33:07Z teurastaja:   2. &compile
2015-07-12T18:33:08Z teurastaja:     program: (f (- i 1) (cdr lsls) s (cons (take lsls n) result))
2015-07-12T18:33:10Z teurastaja:     source: #f
2015-07-12T18:33:11Z teurastaja:   3. &who f
2015-07-12T18:33:13Z teurastaja:   4. &message wrong number of arguments: f requires 3, but got 4
2015-07-12T18:33:14Z teurastaja:   5. &trace (let f ((i n) (lsls (append ls ls)) (result (list))) (if (ze
2015-07-12T18:33:16Z teurastaja:   6. &trace (let ((n (length ls))) (let f ((i n) (lsls (append ls ls)) (
2015-07-12T18:33:17Z teurastaja:   7. &trace (lambda (ls) (let ((n (length ls))) (let f ((i n) (lsls (app
2015-07-12T18:33:19Z teurastaja:   8. &trace (define (rotations ls) (let ((n (length ls))) (let f ((i n)
2015-07-12T18:34:09Z pjb: what is s?
2015-07-12T18:34:38Z teurastaja: i dont know
2015-07-12T18:34:46Z zacts: hi
2015-07-12T18:34:48Z pjb: Neither do I.
2015-07-12T18:35:04Z teurastaja: it talks about s in both my code and yours but none has an s
2015-07-12T18:35:36Z pjb: I see no s in my code.
2015-07-12T18:35:53Z pjb: Are you sure you know how to copy-and-paste?
2015-07-12T18:36:04Z pjb is just wondering.
2015-07-12T18:36:04Z teurastaja: neither in mine but it says the same s thing with my circular list code
2015-07-12T18:36:46Z teurastaja: pjb: im not a simple user... i may be stupid but at least im a power user
2015-07-12T18:36:58Z pjb: ok :-)
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2015-07-12T18:37:41Z pjb: Look if the source doesn't contain a symbol s, and you get the same error in two different such sources, I would say it's a bug in the implementation.  Put it away, and use a sturdy and proven implementation instead.
2015-07-12T18:38:13Z teurastaja: pjb: i dont know if there are any to suit my r7rs needs
2015-07-12T18:38:49Z teurastaja: gauche lacks macros and multiple values in r7rs mode, sagittarius throws stupid mistakes at correct code....
2015-07-12T18:39:28Z pjb: http://community.schemewiki.org/?scheme-faq-standards#implementations lists the implementations indicating whether they're r7rs or not.
2015-07-12T18:40:24Z pjb: larceny gauche chicken are famous names, and this list marks them as r7rs .
2015-07-12T18:41:42Z teurastaja: there are only 6 left to try... hope theres one that suits my needs among them....
2015-07-12T18:42:42Z teurastaja: gauche is out (no macros not multiple values), sagittarius too (throws weird exceptions)
2015-07-12T18:47:07Z wasamasa: so, what about guile or chicken?
2015-07-12T18:47:15Z wasamasa: or racket if you can get beyond that r7rs requirement
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2015-07-13T00:44:28Z turtleman_: owl lisp looks like its moving towards r7rs compatibility. great!
2015-07-13T00:44:35Z turtleman_: the idea of a purely functional scheme interests me.
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2015-07-13T13:49:49Z crocket: Is racket a good starting point for a scheme implementation?
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2015-07-13T13:54:05Z z0d: crocket: what is your goal?
2015-07-13T13:54:51Z crocket: I want to write command line programs that launch fast and consume little memory in an elegant language with elegant concurrency constructs.
2015-07-13T13:55:00Z crocket: I also want elegant build tool support.
2015-07-13T13:55:13Z LeoNerd: Do you also want a pony?
2015-07-13T13:55:18Z crocket: pony?
2015-07-13T13:55:42Z crocket: As far as I know, concurrency support varies a lot among implementations.
2015-07-13T13:55:52Z crocket: Racket has future and place.
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2015-07-13T13:56:05Z z0d: I don't know much about concurrency support in Scheme implementations, but for CLIs try Chicken Scheme
2015-07-13T13:56:06Z crocket: Chicken Scheme has some third party modules.
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2015-07-13T13:56:34Z crocket: Actually, I'm looking for something that replaces clojure for command line apps.
2015-07-13T13:56:45Z crocket: Clojure is hungry of RAM and launches slowly.
2015-07-13T13:57:07Z crocket: Compare to clojure, any scheme implementation looks fine in terms of launch speed and memory consumption.
2015-07-13T13:57:37Z crocket: So, the defining factor would be decent concurrency support and decent build tool/package management.
2015-07-13T13:57:39Z z0d: Clojure is Java in its core, right?
2015-07-13T13:57:44Z crocket: z0d, yes
2015-07-13T13:58:12Z crocket: I need at least 128MB for any clojure daemon.
2015-07-13T13:58:23Z crocket: This is unreasonable for a small daemon.
2015-07-13T13:58:26Z crocket: or a command line app.
2015-07-13T13:58:57Z crocket: z0d, Why do you recommend chicken scheme for CLI?
2015-07-13T14:00:34Z crocket: Does chicken scheme have decent concurrency constructs like future, et al?
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2015-07-13T14:54:46Z wasamasa: not this troll again
2015-07-13T14:56:03Z wasamasa: why did I even suggest them chicken over at #clojure
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2015-07-13T14:59:41Z wasamasa: "Hurr, I'm aware there's no perfect language, but I keep looking for one, durr."
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2015-07-13T15:33:20Z pjb: crocket is a crack racket.
2015-07-13T15:33:58Z pjb: wasamasa: I thought so when I was young (I tried a lot of languages, invented some), until I found Common Lisp.
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2015-07-13T15:37:09Z wasamasa: pjb: you must have missed the elegance thing
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2015-07-13T15:50:21Z pjb: You make it as elegant as you want, since you have the tools to do it.
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2015-07-13T19:44:49Z vegeta_: scheme tutorial is there any ?
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2015-07-13T19:46:34Z contrapunctus: vegeta_: many.
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2015-07-13T19:47:22Z contrapunctus: vegeta_: I think The Little Schemer is probably most recommended. And there's SICP, of coures.
2015-07-13T19:48:29Z vegeta_: is scheme and lisp both are same ? since when i'm looking around lisp popup almost everywhere
2015-07-13T19:49:03Z contrapunctus: vegeta_: Scheme belongs to the Lisp family.
2015-07-13T19:49:28Z vegeta_: oh!
2015-07-13T19:49:52Z vegeta_: Little Schemer is lisp thing i guess not scheme
2015-07-13T19:50:14Z pjb: vegeta_: no, it's scheme.
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2015-07-13T19:50:40Z pjb: Originally, it was The Little Lisper, but it always was lisp-1, so nowadays it's scheme, since emacs lisp and common lisp are lisp-2.
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2015-07-13T19:51:55Z mario-goulart: vegeta_: Once upon a time there was a Lisp language.  As time passed by, multiple diverging implementations popped up.  So, now we have multiple Lisp dialects.  Scheme is one of them.
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2015-07-13T20:16:54Z pjb:  mario-goulart: No, we don't have multiple lisp dialects anymore. We have a single Common Lisp!
2015-07-13T20:17:33Z pjb: CL included lexical binding to make schemers happy ;-)
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2015-07-13T20:23:12Z contrapunctus: ditto TCO as a requirement of the standard.
2015-07-13T20:23:14Z contrapunctus: no, wait ;)
2015-07-13T20:23:24Z pjb: :-)
2015-07-13T20:23:29Z pjb: Can't make everybody happy.
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2015-07-13T20:33:53Z ecraven: why exactly did TCO not make the standard? to make implementations easier? was it just not deemed important enough?
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2015-07-13T20:34:49Z ecraven: I still don't understand the claim that lisp-n is "better" than lisp-1... for me, lisp-1 is much easier to deal with than n>1
2015-07-13T20:35:33Z contrapunctus: ecraven: because Real Programmers™ use loop/iterate
2015-07-13T20:35:40Z contrapunctus: (I'll stop now ;) )
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2015-07-13T20:36:28Z ecraven: contrapunctus: I understand that, but how does that not make TCO a good thing? :)
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2015-07-13T20:37:32Z wasamasa: public service announcement: elisp is a lisp-3
2015-07-13T20:37:59Z contrapunctus: wat
2015-07-13T20:38:02Z wasamasa: faces got their own namespace
2015-07-13T20:39:09Z wasamasa: and don't forget that emacs got three bytecode interpreters
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2015-07-13T20:39:24Z wasamasa: elisp, ccl, regex
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2015-07-13T20:40:31Z contrapunctus: wasamasa: ccl?
2015-07-13T20:40:45Z mario-goulart: common common lisp
2015-07-13T20:40:48Z mario-goulart trolls
2015-07-13T20:40:49Z contrapunctus: huh.
2015-07-13T20:41:08Z wasamasa: code conversion language
2015-07-13T20:41:30Z ecraven: guile :)
2015-07-13T20:41:45Z wasamasa: not yet
2015-07-13T20:42:05Z wasamasa: also, it would replace the elisp one
2015-07-13T20:42:38Z mario-goulart: wasamasa: what's the third namespace for?
2015-07-13T20:42:46Z contrapunctus: mario-goulart: faces
2015-07-13T20:43:04Z mario-goulart: jesus
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2015-07-13T20:43:46Z wasamasa: you notice it once you see that some end in -face and some don't
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2015-07-13T20:44:23Z wasamasa: and then your autocompletion suggests you the name of a function which is named the same as the face
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2015-07-13T20:44:46Z wasamasa: I have this regularly when tweaking themes
2015-07-13T20:45:25Z mario-goulart: is it considered a good design decision?
2015-07-13T20:45:42Z wasamasa: I doubt it was a conscious design decision
2015-07-13T20:45:54Z mario-goulart: so, pretty bad. :-)
2015-07-13T20:46:03Z wasamasa: just like many other small and silly things
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2015-07-13T20:47:11Z ecraven: how many namespaces does CL even have? functions, values, types, classes, packages, ...
2015-07-13T20:47:12Z wasamasa: but eh, it could be worse
2015-07-13T20:48:21Z wasamasa: you could be waiting for the train in Cologne because some homeless people did start a brawl on the damn rails at the prior stop
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2015-07-13T22:35:34Z pjb: ecraven: it's not that TCO is not a good thing. It's that there are a lot less places in CL code that are terminal.
2015-07-13T22:36:08Z pjb: wasamasa: check: http://www.nhplace.com/kent/Papers/Technical-Issues.html
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2015-07-13T23:19:53Z crocket: How can scheme be largely functional without immutable data structures?
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2015-07-13T23:49:00Z turtleman_: crocket: forgive me if i misunderstand the question
2015-07-13T23:49:18Z turtleman_: i believe the answer is, you deal with the mutable structures as if they were immutable
2015-07-13T23:49:26Z turtleman_: for example, you ignore the mutability of lists
2015-07-13T23:49:31Z turtleman_: at least, thats what i do
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2015-07-13T23:52:22Z pjb: Just don't use any function with ! in its name.
2015-07-13T23:52:44Z crocket: So, people ignore
2015-07-13T23:53:11Z crocket: Does scheme copy an entire list when it makes a new one?
2015-07-13T23:53:18Z crocket: Does it only swap changed values?
2015-07-13T23:53:53Z Riastradh: Depends on what `when it makes a new one' you mean.
2015-07-13T23:53:59Z crocket: It takes a lot of RAM and CPU resources to copy an entire list to get immutable behaviors
2015-07-13T23:54:06Z Riastradh: (map (lambda (x) x) l) will generally copy the whole list l.
2015-07-13T23:54:17Z Riastradh: (cons x (cdr l)) will not -- it will create only one cons cell.
2015-07-13T23:54:36Z crocket: Let's assume (conj '(1 2 3) 4)
2015-07-13T23:54:44Z Riastradh: What is conj?
2015-07-13T23:54:56Z crocket: conj adds 4 to '(1 2 3) in clojure.
2015-07-13T23:54:59Z crocket: conjoin
2015-07-13T23:55:13Z Riastradh: Yielding (4 1 2 3) or (1 2 3 4)?
2015-07-13T23:55:18Z crocket: (4 1 2 3)
2015-07-13T23:55:27Z pjb: (cons 4 '(1 2 3)) ; doesn't copy.
2015-07-13T23:55:35Z Riastradh: That's spelled `cons' in Scheme (and most other Lisps), and it doesn't copy anything -- it only creates a single new pair.
2015-07-13T23:55:52Z pjb: That's why we hate clojure: gratuituous differences.
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2015-07-13T23:56:08Z Riastradh: The full notation for (1 2 3) is (1 . (2 . (3 . ()))), each dotted parenthesis indicating a single two-component object in memory.
2015-07-13T23:56:09Z crocket: If a = '(1 2 3) and b = (cons 4 '(1 2 3), are a and b the same?
2015-07-13T23:56:19Z Riastradh: No.
2015-07-13T23:56:30Z Riastradh: a is still (1 2 3) and b is (4 1 2 3).
2015-07-13T23:56:32Z crocket: pjb, I don't hate clojure.
2015-07-13T23:56:49Z Riastradh: But the cdr of b is a.
2015-07-13T23:56:58Z crocket: car
2015-07-13T23:56:58Z Riastradh: Both in the sense of structural equality and in the sense of identity.
2015-07-13T23:57:26Z crocket: How is a map implemented in scheme?
2015-07-13T23:57:32Z Riastradh: ...Not necessarily identity, sorry, if you write (cons 4 '(1 2 3)), but if you wrote (cons 4 a) it would be.
2015-07-13T23:58:07Z pjb: A simplistic definition could be: (define (map f l) (if (null? l) l (cons (f (car l)) (map f (cdr l)))))
2015-07-13T23:58:10Z Riastradh: It's implemented pair-by-pair recursively: on the empty list, it's (); on a nonempty list, it's (cons (f (car l)) (map f (cdr l))).
2015-07-13T23:58:12Z crocket: In clojure, (cons 4 '(1 2 3)) == (cons 4 a)
2015-07-13T23:58:36Z pjb: But the real map takes several lists, so it's a little more complex.
2015-07-13T23:59:06Z pjb: Riastradh: and I hope it's not implemented as I did, with a non-terminal recursion!
2015-07-13T23:59:59Z crocket: Im my mind, gratuitous changes happen for good reasons in clojure.
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2015-07-14T00:00:17Z pjb: Well, let's reserve this for #clojure.
2015-07-14T00:00:22Z crocket: car -> first, cdr -> rest.
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2015-07-14T00:01:11Z Riastradh: pjb doesn't like it when anyone dares interfere with his beloved traditions.
2015-07-14T00:01:12Z crocket: Can you add, remove, and change data structures as if they were immutable in scheme?
2015-07-14T00:01:25Z crocket: traditions
2015-07-14T00:02:38Z turtleman_: crocket, i dont know what you mean
2015-07-14T00:02:47Z turtleman_: if you do (define a (cons 4 b))
2015-07-14T00:02:50Z turtleman_: and you mutate b
2015-07-14T00:02:53Z turtleman_: then a will be affected.
2015-07-14T00:03:05Z pjb: crocket: there's first and rest in Common Lisp.  But cons cells are not used only to build proper lists.
2015-07-14T00:03:30Z crocket: turtleman_, How do you remove elements from b without affecting a?
2015-07-14T00:03:44Z pjb: You don't, at least, not with mutation.
2015-07-14T00:03:46Z Riastradh: crocket: Construct a new list that has everything from b except the ones you want.
2015-07-14T00:03:58Z crocket: You mean copying.
2015-07-14T00:04:09Z pjb: crocket: for a start, you don't mutate literal objects, obtained with quote.
2015-07-14T00:04:30Z Riastradh: Linear linked lists are not well suited to this application, though, because such operations run in linear time.
2015-07-14T00:04:34Z pjb: crocket: if you consider mutating a list, you would have first to build it at runtime using list or copy-list.
2015-07-14T00:05:06Z crocket: Is it easy to avoid accidental mutation without performance penalties?
2015-07-14T00:05:22Z pjb: Yes. As easy as tracking the type of your objects.
2015-07-14T00:05:30Z crocket: hmm....
2015-07-14T00:05:54Z crocket: Since map is implemented as a list in scheme, it would not be easy to get a new version of a map without mutating the original.
2015-07-14T00:05:56Z pjb: Basically, anyways, you restrict mutation to datastructures you are creating in a single function.  Arguments are treated as immutable data.
2015-07-14T00:05:57Z Riastradh: Balanced binary trees are much better.  See, e.g., Okasaki's book `Purely functional data structures' for a variety of them.  Here's one example (although the balancing is slightly broken and I haven't fixed it): http://mumble.net/~campbell/scheme/bb-tree.scm
2015-07-14T00:06:25Z crocket: How do I make a new version of map without copying or mutating the original?
2015-07-14T00:06:50Z turtleman_: map without copying or mutating? :S
2015-07-14T00:07:10Z crocket: In clojure, it is possible through tree.
2015-07-14T00:07:11Z pjb: Clojurers have crazy minds.
2015-07-14T00:07:21Z crocket: We call them clojurist.
2015-07-14T00:07:31Z turtleman_: interesting
2015-07-14T00:07:46Z Riastradh: crocket: When you say `map', do you mean the standard Scheme map procedure, or an associative data structure that maps each of a finite set of keys to an datum?
2015-07-14T00:08:07Z crocket: associative data structure such as {:a 1 :b 2}
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2015-07-14T00:08:26Z pjb: The traditional way is to use an a-list.
2015-07-14T00:08:32Z pjb: ((a . 1) (b . 2))
2015-07-14T00:09:03Z Riastradh: crocket: The standard approach in serious functional programming for maps of nontrivial size is balanced binary trees.
2015-07-14T00:09:13Z pjb: ANd then you use acons or cons cons: (let ((m '((a . 1) (b . 2)))) (let ((m (cons (cons a . 11) m))) …))
2015-07-14T00:09:24Z pjb: no mutation, no copy involved.
2015-07-14T00:09:47Z Riastradh: Each insertion, deletion, or other kind of operation normally takes O(log n) time and O(log n) space.
2015-07-14T00:10:08Z crocket: Riastradh, Does scheme use balanced binary tress for an associative map?
2015-07-14T00:10:13Z pjb: yes
2015-07-14T00:10:19Z pjb: scheme does what I tell it to do!
2015-07-14T00:10:33Z crocket: pjb, Do you mean ((a . 1) (b . 2)) uses a balanced binary tree?
2015-07-14T00:10:44Z pjb: So if I tell it to use balanced binary trees for an associative map, this is what scheme does, because *I* am the programmer.
2015-07-14T00:10:54Z turtleman_: crocket: no, its just a list of pairs.
2015-07-14T00:10:56Z pjb: crocket: No, I told it to use a-list.
2015-07-14T00:11:04Z Riastradh: crocket: That's a common approach.  The notation ((a . 1) (b . 2)) is a linked list of pairs, however.
2015-07-14T00:11:35Z crocket: How do you create a map from a balanced binary tree?
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2015-07-14T00:12:06Z crocket: Is there a literal for doing so such as {}?
2015-07-14T00:12:07Z pjb: crocket: think! what is a balanced binary tree?
2015-07-14T00:12:17Z Riastradh: crocket: No standard literal notation for it in Scheme.
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2015-07-14T00:12:41Z pjb: crocket: But I believe some scheme implementations have reader macro like in Common Lisp, so you could implement such a literal notation.
2015-07-14T00:12:47Z crocket: Yeah, scheme is showing its age.
2015-07-14T00:13:45Z crocket: Racket is a scheme descendant and is largely a superset of R5RS.
2015-07-14T00:13:49Z crocket: Rarcket has reader macro.
2015-07-14T00:14:34Z pjb: But in practice, you avoid reader macros, because there are only so many characters you use, and there are more numerous data structures you'd wish literal forms for.
2015-07-14T00:14:40Z pjb: So instead you use macros.
2015-07-14T00:15:17Z pjb: And don't mention unicode, the problem are not in bits in the computer, but the neurons in your eyes.
2015-07-14T00:16:25Z crocket: I was worried that scheme let mutations fly everywhere.
2015-07-14T00:16:38Z crocket: just as in javascript and python.
2015-07-14T00:16:58Z pjb: crocket: the universe is stateful and deals with mutations all the time.  It's the functional paradygm that is dumb and crazy.
2015-07-14T00:17:06Z crocket: Coding in javascript was a nightmare since any other programmer could mutate my object any time.
2015-07-14T00:17:20Z pjb: It only exist because you cannot deal with state contrarily to the universe.
2015-07-14T00:17:43Z crocket: functional programming eases my mind.
2015-07-14T00:17:48Z turtleman_: scheme-the-language allows mutations, but if you look at example code it is very careful about mutation.
2015-07-14T00:18:06Z turtleman_: i mostly see set!
2015-07-14T00:18:34Z pjb: I almost never see set! in scheme code. (or append! or remove! or anything else with !).
2015-07-14T00:19:05Z crocket: That's the spirit.
2015-07-14T00:19:10Z turtleman_: pjb: i just meant that, as a percentage of destructive operations, i see set! more than anything else
2015-07-14T00:19:17Z pjb: ok.
2015-07-14T00:20:07Z crocket: When I coded as a corporate programmer, a coworker suggested copying objects in javascript to avoid mutations.
2015-07-14T00:21:05Z crocket: It seems modifying an associative map without mutating the original takes a linear time to finish in scheme.
2015-07-14T00:21:22Z crocket: O(n)
2015-07-14T00:21:40Z turtleman_: alists do not care about repeats
2015-07-14T00:21:47Z Riastradh: Only if you build it in a way that requires that...
2015-07-14T00:21:53Z crocket: ok
2015-07-14T00:22:00Z crocket: I'll have to learn scheme properly soon
2015-07-14T00:22:02Z Riastradh: If n is large enough for that to matter, you use a balanced binary tree, not an alist or a vector or anything like that.
2015-07-14T00:22:13Z Riastradh: Same as any other language.
2015-07-14T00:22:26Z crocket: Riastradh, Does scheme make it easy to use a balanced binary tree for a map?
2015-07-14T00:22:49Z pjb: crocket: nope, my code above is O(1)  Adding, changing or deleting an entry is O(1). Querying is O(n).
2015-07-14T00:23:00Z Riastradh: As easy as any other language does...
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2015-07-14T00:24:41Z crocket: It seems Racket is a big language.
2015-07-14T00:24:44Z crocket: Racket guide is large.
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2015-07-14T00:26:09Z crocket: Does anyone know a scheme implementation other than Racket that comes with decent concurrency constructs and a decent build tool such as raco and leiningen?
2015-07-14T00:26:34Z crocket: Actually, I'm looking for a clojure alternative for command line apps.
2015-07-14T00:28:15Z Riastradh: `decent build tool', heh.
2015-07-14T00:28:22Z crocket: Do you know raco?
2015-07-14T00:28:36Z crocket: It fetches dependencies and builds your code.
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2015-07-14T00:30:49Z crocket: Guile programmers use make, ouch.
2015-07-14T00:31:59Z Riastradh: For all its limitations, and bizarre sharp-edged ill-conceived extensions in the GNU variety, make deserves more credit than it gets.
2015-07-14T00:32:06Z pjb: make is decent and can build concurrently with -j.
2015-07-14T00:32:38Z pjb: The only thing you can reproach to make, is that they kept the TAB.
2015-07-14T00:32:39Z crocket: make doesn't fetch dependencies.
2015-07-14T00:32:53Z pjb: My makefiles do.
2015-07-14T00:32:58Z Riastradh: Sure it does, if you tell it to.
2015-07-14T00:32:58Z mikeyhc: same here lol
2015-07-14T00:33:04Z pjb: Make can even look into libraries for dependencies!
2015-07-14T00:33:29Z crocket: Via other command line utilties, make may be able to fetch dependencies.
2015-07-14T00:33:40Z crocket: like wget
2015-07-14T00:33:41Z pjb: crocket: you see, real programmers don't need fancy tools, because they know how to tell tools to do what they want to do.
2015-07-14T00:33:42Z Riastradh: Of course, automatic fetching of dependencies is a pretty dangerous activity that naive young programming language enthusiasts are all too keen to inflict on unwitting users.
2015-07-14T00:34:16Z pjb: On the other hand, newbies like clojurers need their tools to do everything they need, and if the tool doesn't provide fancy features, they're lost and unable to code them,.
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2015-07-14T00:34:23Z Riastradh: Automatic downloading and execution of dependent code: you have now exposed yourself to remote code execution from the internet.
2015-07-14T00:34:40Z crocket: In my experiences, automatic dependency resolution of npm and leiningen was ok.
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2015-07-14T00:35:04Z crocket: Riastradh, The same can be said about distro package managers.
2015-07-14T00:35:31Z crocket: Riastradh, Do you actually have time to inspect all dependencies and conclude that there is no malware code?
2015-07-14T00:35:52Z turtleman_: crocket: im not familiar with anything like that. maybe one of the bigger implementations like Chicken has something
2015-07-14T00:35:57Z Riastradh: Depends on the quality of the infrastructure.
2015-07-14T00:36:03Z pjb: There's a reason why we use lisp to write our own libraries, instead of fetching ready-made ones.
2015-07-14T00:36:16Z Riastradh: Here's an example of a transition from the naive young part to a slightly more serious one: http://blog.npmjs.org/post/80277229932/newly-paranoid-maintainers
2015-07-14T00:36:23Z crocket: pjb, There's a limit in reinventing every wheel.
2015-07-14T00:36:29Z pjb: Not when you use lisp.
2015-07-14T00:36:35Z mikeyhc: CHICKEN has chicken-install for fetching packages, its not automatic though
2015-07-14T00:36:38Z crocket: We're not god
2015-07-14T00:36:39Z turtleman_: i dont really understand the direction of this conversation. are we talking about installing packages?
2015-07-14T00:36:56Z pjb: crocket: also watch: Alan Kay "Programming and Scaling" 2011 http://www.tele-task.de/archive/video/flash/14029/ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gZmcmdsoAXU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-UOmItPa4iA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QlPavndhYxQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y9xLi0iJg1g
2015-07-14T00:36:56Z pjb:  
2015-07-14T00:37:08Z turtleman_: we want to wrap it up neatly right?
2015-07-14T00:37:13Z turtleman_: thats how i interpreted it
2015-07-14T00:37:18Z crocket: pjb, I wouldn't write XML parser unless i HAVE TO
2015-07-14T00:37:33Z pjb: I wouldn't. I use sexps.
2015-07-14T00:37:35Z Riastradh: All I'm saying is that systems that automatically download and install code from the internet should be subjected to serious scrutiny, not on their face touted as benefits of a fancy shiny new programming language tool.
2015-07-14T00:37:42Z crocket: It would take hundreds of years of manpower to do everything on my own.
2015-07-14T00:37:55Z pjb: That's the problem with babyprogrammers.
2015-07-14T00:38:09Z crocket: That's a problem with everyone.
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2015-07-14T00:38:25Z crocket: I can't simply afford to spend hundreds of years on making programs.
2015-07-14T00:38:31Z turtleman_: i know there is an easy way to install packages, but idk about distributing them
2015-07-14T00:38:31Z Riastradh: Having seen enough I'm sceptical of the ones I haven't heard of.
2015-07-14T00:38:38Z turtleman_: you can install libraries with the new snow
2015-07-14T00:39:04Z pjb: crocket: there are people who write whole applications on bare hardware. No library, no framework, no nothing.  And they obtain executables that are much smaller than what you'd expect for the functionality, and code that is much more efficient.
2015-07-14T00:39:22Z pjb: Like Steve Jobs at Apple, what pays, is total control of the entire stack.
2015-07-14T00:39:55Z Riastradh: (...and most of the ones I have.)
2015-07-14T00:40:08Z crocket: pjb, Your expectations are unrealistic.
2015-07-14T00:40:21Z pjb: There are a lot of existance proofs.
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2015-07-14T00:41:03Z crocket: pjb, You make it sound as if you didn't use third party libraries.
2015-07-14T00:41:16Z pjb: I do.  But I write a lot of mine too.
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2015-07-14T00:41:32Z crocket: The problem is two-fold
2015-07-14T00:41:44Z crocket: 1) never invent here 2) not invented here
2015-07-14T00:41:51Z crocket: NeIH and NIH
2015-07-14T00:41:59Z crocket: Both are harmful
2015-07-14T00:42:32Z pjb: Always invent here, unless the NIH is clean, simple, safe and efficient, and doesn't change every week (ie. NOT actively maintained).
2015-07-14T00:42:34Z crocket: The problem you see in young programmers is NeIH which is enforced by corporations not by programmers.
2015-07-14T00:43:17Z crocket: I try to stay way from NeIH and NIH.
2015-07-14T00:43:31Z crocket: I use what's available if it is decent enough.
2015-07-14T00:44:00Z crocket: pjb, How does your makefile fetch dependencies?
2015-07-14T00:44:06Z crocket: As far as I know, make itself doesn't have that capability.
2015-07-14T00:44:26Z pjb: depends. that can be wget, git clone, or calling a script to do the job.
2015-07-14T00:44:36Z pjb: make has all the capabilities.
2015-07-14T00:45:00Z crocket: I wouldn't depend on a particular URL that could go out soon.
2015-07-14T00:45:15Z pjb: It could.
2015-07-14T00:45:17Z crocket: Not persistent enough
2015-07-14T00:45:58Z mikeyhc: crocket: how do you get more persistent
2015-07-14T00:46:10Z crocket: In my view, build tools are a progress in that they provide a stable interface to fetching libraries.
2015-07-14T00:46:25Z mikeyhc: they are only as stable as the URL's they rely on
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2015-07-14T00:46:37Z mikeyhc: if you have used cabal you know those URL's aren't all that stable either
2015-07-14T00:46:37Z pjb: crocket: you see why we don't use external libraries. instead code the functions you need in your program, so you don't risk to not be able to find the dependencies later.
2015-07-14T00:46:42Z crocket: mikeyhc, The URLs they provide is more persistent because they are managed by a central authority.
2015-07-14T00:46:47Z crocket: by a group
2015-07-14T00:47:14Z crocket: pjb, You don't worry about it much with clojar.
2015-07-14T00:47:20Z pjb: so a single point of failure.  bravo.
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2015-07-14T00:47:30Z crocket: Clojar is not a single server.
2015-07-14T00:47:38Z crocket: It is a single concept, but it has multiple servers.
2015-07-14T00:47:40Z pjb: the central authority.
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2015-07-14T00:48:15Z crocket: It's better than fetching dependencies from a various assortment of URLs that the maintainers can take down soon.
2015-07-14T00:48:27Z crocket: Any github repository can go down any time.
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2015-07-14T00:48:49Z pjb: Hence cloning on different repos.
2015-07-14T00:49:13Z turtleman_: crocket: like i said, snow is going to be a way to host scheme library repositories
2015-07-14T00:49:15Z crocket: You can't claim to have a better deal from github repositories.
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2015-07-14T00:49:59Z turtleman_: its not automatic
2015-07-14T00:50:08Z turtleman_: but it lets people get it from one source.
2015-07-14T00:50:26Z crocket: It seems racket is decent.
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2015-07-14T00:52:32Z crocket: turtleman_, Which scheme implementation do you use?
2015-07-14T00:52:48Z turtleman_: crocket: i jump around, but i am enjoying gauche
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2015-07-14T00:53:40Z turtleman_: it has basic things like a web server, GUI with Tk
2015-07-14T00:53:46Z turtleman_: those are important to me
2015-07-14T00:54:51Z turtleman_: also in my experience Gauche is relatively fast
2015-07-14T00:54:59Z turtleman_: compared to, say, chibi-scheme
2015-07-14T00:56:59Z crocket: turtleman_, Does it have a decent build tool?
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2015-07-14T00:57:49Z turtleman_: nope
2015-07-14T00:58:49Z turtleman_: just make
2015-07-14T00:59:53Z turtleman_: if your main concern is fetching dependencies, snow can do that
2015-07-14T01:00:21Z turtleman_: im trying to understand specifically what is missing for you
2015-07-14T01:01:29Z turtleman_: brb
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2015-07-14T01:06:19Z crocket: snow seems to be dead.
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2015-07-14T01:07:03Z pjb: Too bad you can't fetch the sources to make it do what you want.
2015-07-14T01:07:40Z pjb: I know, just re-implement it to your taste!
2015-07-14T01:07:50Z crocket: pjb, I would just use raco.
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2015-07-14T01:08:03Z pjb: At least, while you implement your version, it will be maintained! :-)
2015-07-14T01:08:19Z crocket: pjb, I don't get to implement everything I use.
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2015-07-14T01:08:37Z crocket: Why don't you make a language ,too?
2015-07-14T01:08:57Z pjb: Already done.  Others on the list.
2015-07-14T01:09:13Z crocket: I am not the kind of person you are.
2015-07-14T01:09:22Z crocket: Obviously, your approach doesn't work on scale.
2015-07-14T01:09:27Z pjb: a language, an OS, everything.
2015-07-14T01:09:29Z turtleman_: crocket: there is a new snow
2015-07-14T01:09:33Z turtleman_: it works for r7rs libraries
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2015-07-14T01:09:42Z turtleman_: it is not publicly announced yet.
2015-07-14T01:09:44Z turtleman_: it works well.
2015-07-14T01:09:50Z mikeyhc: ls
2015-07-14T01:09:54Z pjb: http://www.projectoberon.com/
2015-07-14T01:09:55Z turtleman_: it works, sort-of well
2015-07-14T01:09:58Z turtleman_: its not perfect
2015-07-14T01:10:43Z crocket: turtleman_, http://snow-fort.org/pkg ?
2015-07-14T01:11:03Z turtleman_: yes thats the place
2015-07-14T01:12:18Z crocket: chibi-bytevector
2015-07-14T01:12:32Z crocket: Does chibi-bytevector from snow work only on chibi?
2015-07-14T01:12:44Z turtleman_: not necessarily
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2015-07-14T01:12:47Z turtleman_: let me try installing it on gauche
2015-07-14T01:14:01Z turtleman_: it works on gauche
2015-07-14T01:14:32Z turtleman_: im pretty sure all the libraries there are portable across implementations if you have the right srfis
2015-07-14T01:16:27Z turtleman_: (portable across r7rs implementations that allow you to install libraries.)
2015-07-14T01:20:21Z turtleman_: like i said, its not yet released and its a bit buggy. but i think its similar to what npm does.
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2015-07-14T01:34:10Z crocket: turtleman_, What is the best scheme implementation?
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2015-07-14T01:35:24Z turtleman_: there is no best one
2015-07-14T01:35:39Z turtleman_: and im not just saying that to be neutral.
2015-07-14T01:36:12Z crocket: ok
2015-07-14T01:36:16Z turtleman_: if racket ever supports #lang r7rs, i will use racket
2015-07-14T01:36:31Z crocket: What is the R7RS implementation with a decent build tool?
2015-07-14T01:36:48Z crocket: and some decent concurrency/parallelism constructs.
2015-07-14T01:37:00Z turtleman_: concurrency in the build tool?
2015-07-14T01:37:08Z turtleman_: there is none with anything that advanced afaik
2015-07-14T01:37:31Z turtleman_: like i said, im not sure what a build tool is used for
2015-07-14T01:37:41Z turtleman_: if the answer is distributing a final application, like a .exe, then there is none
2015-07-14T01:38:09Z turtleman_: if you just mean fetching dependencies, i think snow will be ok. and snow will support most r7rs implementations in the future.
2015-07-14T01:38:20Z crocket: mp
2015-07-14T01:38:21Z crocket: no
2015-07-14T01:38:35Z crocket: turtleman_, concurrency to handle shared states.
2015-07-14T01:38:48Z crocket: Or, parallelism can substitute concurrency up to a degree.
2015-07-14T01:38:50Z turtleman_: you mean in the actual implementation
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2015-07-14T01:38:57Z crocket: or extension
2015-07-14T01:39:08Z crocket: I don't think R7RS has decent concurrency support.
2015-07-14T01:39:12Z turtleman_: i have 0 experience with that
2015-07-14T01:39:21Z turtleman_: so i cant answer that
2015-07-14T01:40:02Z crocket: Actually, R7RS doesn't even have thread.
2015-07-14T01:40:05Z turtleman_: http://srfi.schemers.org/srfi-18/srfi-18.html
2015-07-14T01:40:09Z turtleman_: is this kind of like what you want?
2015-07-14T01:40:30Z crocket: SRFI 18 adds primitive concurrency constructs that I wouldn't use most of the time.
2015-07-14T01:40:48Z crocket: Mutex
2015-07-14T01:41:27Z crocket: It's better to rely on parallelism constructs instead of low level concurrency constructs like mutex.
2015-07-14T01:42:03Z crocket: Ok
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2015-07-14T01:42:17Z crocket: Is there any R7RS implementation with decent build tool like raco?
2015-07-14T01:42:20Z crocket: or eggs
2015-07-14T01:42:22Z turtleman_: maybe future srfis will allow that type of thing
2015-07-14T01:42:28Z turtleman_: http://srfi.schemers.org/srfi-116/srfi-116.html
2015-07-14T01:42:35Z turtleman_: i was told srfi 116 will help in that direction
2015-07-14T01:44:02Z crocket: SRFI 116 is about immutable list.
2015-07-14T01:44:15Z crocket: Where is the future SRFI?
2015-07-14T01:44:42Z turtleman_: its in the future
2015-07-14T01:44:45Z turtleman_: i can show you it :(
2015-07-14T01:44:48Z turtleman_: cant*
2015-07-14T01:45:10Z turtleman_: sorry i dont know much about concurrency
2015-07-14T01:47:01Z crocket: One of parallelism constructs is 'future'.
2015-07-14T01:49:33Z crocket: turtleman_, Tell me every R7RS implmenetation.
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2015-07-14T01:53:41Z mikeyhc: crocket: I dont know of any r7rs implementation with futures
2015-07-14T01:54:59Z crocket: mikeyhc, Can you tell me every R7RS implementation?
2015-07-14T01:55:04Z crocket: Forget about futures
2015-07-14T01:55:14Z crocket: 'future' is not part of R7RS.
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2015-07-14T01:58:04Z Niac: is the same function act as clojure inconcurrency?
2015-07-14T01:58:20Z turtleman_: crocket: i meant to say, "In the future, there may be better support for what you want. But I am not aware of any such thing today."
2015-07-14T01:58:28Z mikeyhc: crocket: http://trac.sacrideo.us/wg/wiki/ImplementationSupport
2015-07-14T01:58:46Z turtleman_: https://freepo.st/community/Scheme/post/4zq05t4m
2015-07-14T01:59:11Z turtleman_: mine includes some very incomplete ones
2015-07-14T01:59:16Z turtleman_: mikeyhc's link is better
2015-07-14T01:59:56Z mikeyhc: crocket: some of these implement r7rs through a library
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2015-07-14T02:01:25Z mikeyhc: also if you are concerned with concurrency be aware that some of these implementations only support green threads
2015-07-14T02:01:51Z crocket: mikeyhc, concurrency is not about OS threads.
2015-07-14T02:02:12Z crocket: I'm fine with green threads since I'm not going to write games.
2015-07-14T02:02:40Z mikeyhc: any blocking IO is a pain on green threads, not just games
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2015-07-14T02:05:13Z crocket: ok
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2015-07-14T02:05:31Z crocket: mikeyhc, node.js can take care of blocking IOs with green threads just fine.
2015-07-14T02:05:47Z crocket: Threads that run blocking IOs can be parked.
2015-07-14T02:06:12Z crocket: Is there any R7RS implementation with a build tool?
2015-07-14T02:06:32Z mikeyhc: crocket: in my experience most scheme implementations dont provide this, they do normally provide non-blocking ports though this comes with its own set of headaches
2015-07-14T02:06:46Z pjb: crocket: why do you expect it to be bundled with an implementation?
2015-07-14T02:07:03Z pjb: crocket: just write it yourself, or use a separate tool
2015-07-14T02:07:21Z pjb: crocket: cf. for example, asdf in Common Lisp.
2015-07-14T02:08:27Z mikeyhc: crocket: scheme implementations tend to have quite a DIY attitude, normally only the compiler and a standard library are included
2015-07-14T02:08:47Z crocket: mikeyhc, chicken and racket have build tools
2015-07-14T02:09:23Z crocket: Clojure has a third party build tool named leiningen.
2015-07-14T02:09:36Z mikeyhc: crocket: I use chicken, and the build tool is not something I would brag about
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2015-07-14T02:09:50Z crocket: ok
2015-07-14T02:10:08Z mikeyhc: it gets the job done nine times out of ten
2015-07-14T02:10:28Z mikeyhc: but its as vebose as a shell script
2015-07-14T02:11:03Z crocket: Why do scheme people skimp on a build tool?
2015-07-14T02:11:25Z crocket: Lack of man power?
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2015-07-14T02:11:33Z mikeyhc: not really a priority
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2015-07-14T02:12:04Z mikeyhc: scheme people tend to be very particular about how they like things, which is why people so often roll their own solutions to things
2015-07-14T02:12:05Z turtleman_: crocket: i wonder if this interests you http://www.lambdanative.org/
2015-07-14T02:12:29Z turtleman_: they call it a "development system" so i wonder if that includes a build tool.
2015-07-14T02:13:55Z pjb: crocket: leiningen didn't appear magically!  Some programmer wrote it!
2015-07-14T02:13:56Z crocket: I guess I'll have to be satisfied with any scheme implementation with a build tool..
2015-07-14T02:14:12Z crocket: pjb, Every programming tool was written by a human.
2015-07-14T02:14:16Z pjb: Because it's trivial to write a loader script!
2015-07-14T02:14:46Z pjb: (dolist (s '("macros" "variables" "lib1" "lib2" "main")) (load (string-append s ".scm")))
2015-07-14T02:14:51Z pjb: That's all you need for a build tool!
2015-07-14T02:15:13Z crocket: Your sense of humor is not very good
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2015-07-14T02:15:26Z pjb: I kid you not, go fetch a few programs!
2015-07-14T02:16:15Z turtleman_: crocket: why not just use racket? too big?
2015-07-14T02:16:19Z pjb: In CL, only recently ASDF took off (before there were a few other system definition systems, and only a few program used it; programs and libraries just used ad-hoc scripts such as this dolist form).
2015-07-14T02:16:28Z crocket: turtleman_, no
2015-07-14T02:17:18Z crocket: Probably, I'm being unreasonable.
2015-07-14T02:17:35Z crocket: pjb, You still need a repository.
2015-07-14T02:17:55Z pjb: for downloading from a centralized place, there's quicklisp which builds on asdf.
2015-07-14T02:18:14Z pjb: Notice that I keep mentionning them because there's zero reason why they couldn't be ported to scheme.
2015-07-14T02:18:47Z pjb: hint hint wink wink
2015-07-14T02:18:53Z crocket: https://github.com/pixie-lang/dust/
2015-07-14T02:20:10Z pjb: But you know, the vast majority of the asdf systems written, are basically the moral equivalent of the dolist above.
2015-07-14T02:20:14Z turtleman_: i  have to sleep now. night
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2015-07-14T02:25:35Z crocket: The first thing I would do when I code in a scheme implementation could be write a build tool and market it hard.
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2015-07-14T02:26:58Z mikeyhc: theres no real interest in it
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2015-07-14T02:30:31Z crocket: There could be a build tool that fetches deps from snow and github and builds a package.
2015-07-14T02:30:39Z crocket: or an executable
2015-07-14T02:31:07Z crocket: This is declarative, and it's better than make.
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2015-07-14T02:33:20Z crocket: At least, guile 2.2 will use guix as its package manager.
2015-07-14T02:33:35Z crocket: and build tool
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2015-07-14T17:45:14Z ghost_runner: l0l at the Amazon hate for SICP. xD
2015-07-14T17:45:41Z turtleman_: ?
2015-07-14T17:46:34Z contrapunctus: ghost_runner: heh, yeah.
2015-07-14T17:46:52Z contrapunctus should get back to it >.>
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2015-07-14T17:57:10Z ghost_runner: contrapunctus: I personally found one common point from Amazon critics to ring true: the book, though enlightening, is very boring.
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2015-07-14T18:00:21Z pjb: The contrary of boring, IMO.
2015-07-14T18:00:55Z pjb: And you can also watch the lesson videos, which are exciting.
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2015-07-14T18:02:09Z contrapunctus: ghost_runner: I think it'd be dishonest of me to to comment on that aspect of it till I complete it x-P
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2015-07-14T20:02:03Z turtleman_: are there any scheme implementations that allow hot-swapping?
2015-07-14T20:02:07Z turtleman_: it sounds really helpful to me
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2015-07-14T20:05:38Z paroneayea: so has anyone had a chance to read The Little Prover yet? :)
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2015-07-14T20:07:50Z turtleman_: i have not read it
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2015-07-14T22:37:13Z turtleman_: smalltalk people say image-based development is great
2015-07-14T22:37:17Z turtleman_: can you have such a thing with scheme?
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2015-07-14T22:37:29Z turtleman_: i am pondering it
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2015-07-14T22:56:41Z pjb: turtleman_: in pure r5rs it's hard, but on a given implementation it may be possible. (The reason why is because obtaining the interactive environment is not imposed by the standard).  I'd bet an implementation like racket is able to save an executable image.
2015-07-14T22:57:42Z pjb: turtleman_: but even CL doesn't impose, eg. keeping the source text or sexp around in the image, so to do something like InterLisp (true image based development) you will have to add some layer of utilities.  Cf. eg. Image Based Development http://www.informatimago.com/develop/lisp/com/informatimago/small-cl-pgms/ibcl/index.html in the case of CL, you could do something similar in scheme.
2015-07-14T22:57:43Z rudybot: http://teensy.info/H9OCyCcjqQ
2015-07-14T22:57:53Z pjb: Be sure to read the InterLisp manuals.
2015-07-14T22:58:05Z turtleman_: ok i will look ati t
2015-07-14T22:58:08Z turtleman_: at it*
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2015-07-14T22:58:36Z pjb: iirc interlisp was a lisp-1 too.
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2015-07-15T14:55:12Z cris_: Any idea as to why I keep getting 'ERROR: unbound variable'?
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2015-07-15T14:55:51Z cris_: (define p 3) // (define r 10) // (* p (* r r))
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2015-07-15T14:56:21Z mario-goulart: // is probably unbound.
2015-07-15T14:56:36Z cris_: / is a paragraph, sorry for not mentioning that
2015-07-15T14:57:11Z mario-goulart: ah, ok.  So the error is not likely to be from that part of the code.
2015-07-15T14:57:23Z mario-goulart: What Scheme implementation is that?
2015-07-15T14:57:26Z cris_: Using the scm interpreter
2015-07-15T14:57:52Z mario-goulart: Is there an interactive repl for it?
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2015-07-15T14:58:34Z cris_: Im quite new to programming in general, so Im not familiar with that term
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2015-07-15T15:35:33Z turtleman_: cris_: is there an interactive interpreter
2015-07-15T15:35:44Z turtleman_: are you on windows or a unix-based system
2015-07-15T15:38:33Z turtleman_: cris_ i ran your code in scm, it ran just fine for me :)
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2015-07-15T15:39:01Z turtleman_: (define p 3)
2015-07-15T15:39:03Z turtleman_: (define r 10)
2015-07-15T15:39:07Z turtleman_: (* p (* r r))
2015-07-15T15:39:09Z turtleman_: no error
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2015-07-15T15:49:18Z contrapunctus: o/
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2015-07-15T15:55:01Z cris_: That's odd. Something in my setup is amiss. Funtoo, emacs, scm. I've also tried racket and it failed as well.
2015-07-15T15:55:09Z cris_: Guile is up next.
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2015-07-15T15:57:46Z contrapunctus: I've run into a problem with syntax-rules, could someone please help me out? A pointer or such would be greatly appreciated. http://ix.io/jKk
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2015-07-15T15:59:17Z contrapunctus: (using 'where' as an argument to syntax-rules doesn't work - then I get a 'no rule matches form' :\)
2015-07-15T15:59:21Z cris_: Every interpreter I've tried outputs 'unbound variable'
2015-07-15T15:59:29Z contrapunctus: cris_: ?
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2015-07-15T16:03:39Z mario-goulart: cris_: aren't you using any funny unicode character that looks like the ascii one?
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2015-07-15T16:04:26Z cris_: Nope
2015-07-15T16:04:35Z mario-goulart: The repl (read, eval, print, loop) is the interactive interface provided by the system (compiler, interpreter) you are using.
2015-07-15T16:04:44Z mario-goulart: aka "shell"
2015-07-15T16:05:11Z cris_: I'm using GNU Emacs plus scm/guile/racket (pick one)
2015-07-15T16:05:38Z mario-goulart: Try to evaluate those expressions directly into the repl, without emacs.
2015-07-15T16:06:58Z cris_: eg run scm file.ss?
2015-07-15T16:07:36Z mario-goulart: Or just run scm and type the expressions at the prompt.
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2015-07-15T16:09:30Z cris_: It worked...
2015-07-15T16:09:35Z cris_: So it's emacs
2015-07-15T16:10:30Z mario-goulart: Probably emacs is inserting something in the code when passing it to the evaluator.
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2015-07-15T16:14:47Z contrapunctus: anyone?
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2015-07-15T16:30:29Z turtleman_: cris_, how are you running the file
2015-07-15T16:30:37Z turtleman_: you are editing it in emacs, and executing it from your terminal?
2015-07-15T16:30:55Z cris_: No
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2015-07-15T16:32:01Z cris_: C-x C-e
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2015-07-15T16:36:32Z turtleman_: im not a very experience emacs user
2015-07-15T16:36:46Z turtleman_: but i *suspect* emacs is evaluating the file as an elisp file
2015-07-15T16:36:48Z turtleman_: i could be wrong.
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2015-07-15T16:37:19Z turtleman_: or wait
2015-07-15T16:37:22Z cris_: Well, it lists it as '*scheme*' and is using scm
2015-07-15T16:37:29Z turtleman_: hmm i see
2015-07-15T16:37:32Z turtleman_: im not sure
2015-07-15T16:37:34Z cris_: Quack -> run scheme
2015-07-15T16:37:39Z turtleman_: oh, you are using quack
2015-07-15T16:37:46Z turtleman_: ok. i do everything from the shell
2015-07-15T16:37:57Z turtleman_: someone else probably knows more than me about this.
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2015-07-15T16:40:08Z turtleman_: im going to install quack and experiment.
2015-07-15T16:40:24Z cris_: In short, I should edit on emacs, and use the shell to test the program
2015-07-15T16:40:32Z cris_: As a temporary solution, that is
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2015-07-15T16:41:37Z turtleman_: if that works, i recommend it for now
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2015-07-15T16:41:46Z turtleman_: until someone figures out whats wrong with your emacs configuration
2015-07-15T16:43:15Z turtleman_: hmm i get the same error as you!
2015-07-15T16:43:25Z cris_: How annoying!
2015-07-15T16:43:53Z cris_: I just followed the guide on emacswiki for scheme, since they recommended you to install quack
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2015-07-15T16:45:19Z turtleman_: ok, so i believe that c-x c-e only evaluates a single expression
2015-07-15T16:45:21Z turtleman_: not the entire file
2015-07-15T16:45:34Z turtleman_: therefore, p is not bound because you are not selecting p
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2015-07-15T16:46:44Z cris_: Oh wow, youre right, evaluating region works
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2015-07-15T16:47:21Z turtleman_: C-c C-l evaluates a file
2015-07-15T16:47:25Z cris_: Ahhh
2015-07-15T16:48:14Z cris_: Wait, C-c C-l loads a scheme file
2015-07-15T16:48:49Z turtleman_: yes it does
2015-07-15T16:48:50Z cris_: .. I did that, then pressed C-c C-e and it worked
2015-07-15T16:49:01Z cris_: C-x* C-e
2015-07-15T16:49:15Z turtleman_: your interpreter is persistent
2015-07-15T16:49:25Z turtleman_: so definitions you already evaluated stay
2015-07-15T16:49:30Z turtleman_: until you shut down the shell
2015-07-15T16:49:41Z turtleman_: im not familiar with quack so im learning this as i speak :P
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2015-07-15T16:51:51Z cris_: I really should RTFM
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2015-07-15T17:02:13Z cris_: turtleman_ how do I deal with arithmetic overflows?
2015-07-15T17:04:13Z turtleman_: what implementation are you concerned with
2015-07-15T17:04:21Z turtleman_: scm still?
2015-07-15T17:04:26Z cris_: Yes
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2015-07-15T17:04:46Z turtleman_: for integers, i think they get arbitrarily large
2015-07-15T17:04:57Z turtleman_: and floats are cast to +inf.0
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2015-07-15T17:06:43Z cris_: I can't define the multiplicative inverse of a number normally (define (inverse x) (/ 1 x))
2015-07-15T17:07:28Z turtleman_: whats wrong with that?
2015-07-15T17:07:36Z turtleman_: i mean, whats wrong with the code you just showed me?
2015-07-15T17:07:48Z cris_: Numerical overflow
2015-07-15T17:08:06Z turtleman_: oh i see
2015-07-15T17:08:11Z turtleman_: what do you want to do, raise an exception?
2015-07-15T17:09:06Z cris_: I want to know how to make it less precise so it doesnt overflow
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2015-07-15T17:09:19Z turtleman_: im a bit confused
2015-07-15T17:09:40Z turtleman_: your procedure works for most values of x
2015-07-15T17:09:46Z turtleman_: it works for 1, 2, 3, 1/2, 1/4
2015-07-15T17:09:51Z turtleman_: you are concerned when x is quite small, right?
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2015-07-15T17:11:17Z cris_: Yes
2015-07-15T17:12:11Z turtleman_: when you have very small x, what do you want the result to be?
2015-07-15T17:12:16Z turtleman_: +inf.0 is not good enough for you?
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2015-07-15T17:12:39Z cris_: Oh, is that the default behaviour?
2015-07-15T17:12:48Z turtleman_: yes
2015-07-15T17:13:02Z cris_: AH, sorry for wasting your time
2015-07-15T17:13:08Z turtleman_: its ok :P try testing things first
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2015-07-15T17:13:24Z turtleman_: scheme implementations all act a little different, so you need to get used to the one you are using
2015-07-15T17:13:57Z turtleman_: e.g. some other implementation may throw a division-by-zero error.
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2015-07-15T17:35:41Z contrapunctus: folks? anyone? :\
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2015-07-15T17:43:59Z turtleman_: contrapunctus: what was your question again?
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2015-07-15T17:44:54Z contrapunctus: turtleman_: http://ix.io/jKk (and using 'where' as an argument to syntax-rules doesn't work - then I get a 'no rule matches form' error)
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2015-07-15T17:50:10Z contrapunctus: turtleman_: syntax highlighting and line numbers, if required - http://ix.io/jKk/scm
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2015-07-15T17:56:06Z contrapunctus: turtleman_: thoughts?
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2015-07-15T18:52:22Z contrapunctus: (I understand /why/ it's happening - but I don't know how I can do what I want to do.)
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2015-07-15T19:01:00Z turtleman_: contrapunctus: sorry i never replied, im a little busy is all
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2015-07-15T19:03:35Z contrapunctus: turtleman_: no problem - so any ideas? o.o
2015-07-15T19:04:42Z turtleman_: if you dont want (quote all), why is it in your code?
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2015-07-15T19:06:52Z contrapunctus: turtleman_: (quote all) is supposed to be there in the first two rules, not the third
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2015-07-15T19:11:10Z turtleman_: its getting matched with the first one, i am guessing
2015-07-15T19:12:06Z turtleman_: (_ where key value ...)
2015-07-15T19:12:23Z turtleman_: that just looks for at least two arguments, doesnt it?
2015-07-15T19:13:02Z turtleman_: im not super-knowlegable about macros, im just basing this off what little i know
2015-07-15T19:13:51Z contrapunctus: turtleman_: yeah
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2015-07-15T19:15:04Z turtleman_: maybe if you change the order
2015-07-15T19:15:12Z turtleman_: to most arguments first, then to fewer arguments
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2015-07-15T19:20:23Z contrapunctus: turtleman_: interesting result. I reversed the order - now (log-get a b where x 1) => (log-get-fn (quote (a)) (b where x 1)) , and likewise (log-get a b c d where x 1) => (log-get-fn (quote (a b c)) (d where x 1))
2015-07-15T19:21:40Z contrapunctus: oh, it messed up the second clause too x-P
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2015-07-15T19:34:59Z teurastaja: hey id like a function that takes an equality test and 2 lists and rearranges "equal" elements of the first list based on the order of the "equal" elements in the 2nd list
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2015-07-15T19:36:36Z teurastaja: the 2nd list is simply a shuffled version of the first. i already wrote the shuffle function so no shuffling needs to be done. only take 2 lists and an equality test between elements
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2015-07-15T19:45:38Z Tbone139: teurastaja: I don't think I'm understanding right: if the equality test is = and the lists are '(1 2 3) '(2 3 1), and you want to rearrange '(2 3 1) to '(1 2 3), why wouldn't you just return the first list?
2015-07-15T19:46:49Z teurastaja: no i wont use = of course
2015-07-15T19:47:20Z teurastaja: more like (lambda (x y) (lset= = x y))
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2015-07-15T19:50:01Z teurastaja: its a way to randomize sets and im also gonna use it to swap occurences of things
2015-07-15T19:50:21Z teurastaja: unless you have a better idea?
2015-07-15T19:52:25Z Riastradh: teurastaja: What are you more broadly trying to accomplish?
2015-07-15T19:52:57Z Tbone139: <teurastaja> hey id like a function that takes an equality test and 2 lists and rearranges "equal" elements of the first list based on the order of the "equal" elements in the 2nd list
2015-07-15T19:53:05Z Tbone139: <teurastaja> the 2nd list is simply a shuffled version of the first. i already wrote the shuffle function so no shuffling needs to be done. only take 2 lists and an equality test between elements
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2015-07-15T19:54:18Z Riastradh: `more broadly'
2015-07-15T19:54:24Z Riastradh: What do you hope to accomplish with such an operation?
2015-07-15T19:54:34Z teurastaja: basically, merging set-equal elements from a list and its shuffled version
2015-07-15T19:55:24Z teurastaja: so those that lset= may be shuffled in place
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2015-07-15T19:55:48Z Riastradh: What is the broader problem you are trying to solve, of which you believe this operation solves a subproblem?
2015-07-15T19:55:50Z teurastaja: but also reversing occurences
2015-07-15T19:57:33Z teurastaja: hmm... its again for my sudoku: i shuffle triplets that are set-equal. also, i swap all occurences of some randomly chosen numbers
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2015-07-15T20:03:31Z teurastaja: i already use knuths shuffle using vectors so i dont need another shuffling function
2015-07-15T20:04:07Z teurastaja: just some kind of arbitrary equality merger
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2015-07-15T20:11:07Z teurastaja: am i on the right track?
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2015-07-15T20:14:32Z teurastaja: hello?
2015-07-15T20:16:23Z wasamasa: there's better channels for getting your endless monologues interrupted than #scheme
2015-07-15T20:17:08Z teurastaja: this is not an endless monologue i was answering Riastradh
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2015-07-15T20:17:18Z wasamasa: however, if all you want is confirmation from someone, then chances are nobody knows
2015-07-15T20:17:41Z teurastaja: its not just a confirmation. did you read?
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2015-07-15T20:18:23Z wasamasa: <teurastaja> am i on the right track?
2015-07-15T20:18:23Z wasamasa: <teurastaja> hello?
2015-07-15T20:19:11Z teurastaja: yes. did you read the rest?
2015-07-15T20:19:27Z wasamasa: I didn't see anything meaningfult after that :>
2015-07-15T20:19:44Z teurastaja: before, not after
2015-07-15T20:20:43Z teurastaja: you cant evaluate unbound variables. you need the context
2015-07-15T20:20:52Z wasamasa: ???
2015-07-15T20:21:10Z wasamasa is not sure whether he's getting duped by a bot
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2015-07-15T20:35:18Z Tbone139: teurastaja: does guile or whatever you're using support (member-procedure)? That might be the piece you need for your function
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2015-07-15T20:37:58Z Tbone139: this is what I have, I can't test it in racket though. Still possible I'm misunderstanding your desired function http://paste.lisp.org/display/151639
2015-07-15T20:43:55Z Riastradh: teurastaja: Still not clear on what you're trying to do here.  If you want to randomly generate a permutation, and then apply it, that's easy: generate the vector #(0 1 2 ... n-2 n-1), Knuth-shuffle it, and then use it to index something else.
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2015-07-16T02:17:20Z Niac: is there any idear about the scope?
2015-07-16T02:17:51Z Niac: i want to write a interpretor
2015-07-16T02:22:49Z pjb: Niac: a good book to learn how to do that, is LiSP Lisp in Small Pieces   http://pagesperso-systeme.lip6.fr/Christian.Queinnec/WWW/LiSP.html  http://pagesperso-systeme.lip6.fr/Christian.Queinnec/Books/LiSP-2ndEdition-2006Dec11.tgz
2015-07-16T02:22:49Z rudybot: http://teensy.info/V109FE2ERI
2015-07-16T02:23:23Z pjb: http://www.amazon.com/Lisp-Small-Pieces-Christian-Queinnec/dp/0521545668/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1437013396&sr=1-1&keywords=lisp+in+small+pieces
2015-07-16T02:23:23Z rudybot: http://teensy.info/TAPPoEXvFp
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2015-07-16T02:30:19Z Niac: pjb: thanks ,that's what i need
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2015-07-16T06:55:46Z AjaxCrixum: As a beginner, which book will aid me better in the long-run: SICP or K&R?
2015-07-16T06:56:22Z ecraven: read both :)
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2015-07-16T06:56:34Z ecraven: K&R isn't that long anyway
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2015-07-16T07:04:17Z z0d: those books serve 2 totally different purposes
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2015-07-16T07:08:24Z z0d: probably a troll though. he's trying to get help with C in #emacs
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2015-07-16T15:08:39Z contrapunctus: o/
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2015-07-16T15:11:10Z contrapunctus: I have some trouble with syntax-rules, would really appreciate some help - http://ix.io/jLu/scm
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2015-07-17T14:53:14Z leppie: In Typed Racket, is it possible to refer to the type being defined as a field type. ie (struct Foo ([bar : Foo])) ? IT is not clear from the docs if this is allowed or not
2015-07-17T14:54:33Z vraid: that should be no problem
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2015-07-17T14:59:44Z leppie: vraid: thanks
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2015-07-17T15:16:45Z vraid: leppie: but you might want to give another option for the type, since it's hard to create the first instance otherwise :)
2015-07-17T15:19:08Z leppie: vraid: (U type null) would probably be better :) or (U type false)
2015-07-17T15:19:42Z vraid: idiomatic racket uses (Option type), which is the same as (U False type)
2015-07-17T15:20:04Z leppie: cool
2015-07-17T15:21:14Z leppie: I dont quite have union support in IronScheme, so that will be hard to implement, going for (U Null type) as that is free :D
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2015-07-17T22:07:27Z teurastaja: rudybot: (define talk #f)
2015-07-17T22:07:28Z rudybot: teurastaja: your sandbox is ready
2015-07-17T22:07:28Z rudybot: teurastaja: Done.
2015-07-17T22:07:40Z teurastaja: rudybot: (not talk)
2015-07-17T22:07:40Z rudybot: teurastaja: ; Value: #t
2015-07-17T22:09:47Z teurastaja: rudybot: help
2015-07-17T22:09:47Z rudybot: teurastaja: bug <more> ..., fom <more> ..., hopeless <more> ..., falsy <more> ..., bad-eval <more> ..., later "tell" <recipient> <message> ..., help [<what>], version, quote, source, url, seen <nick> <more> ..., where's <nick> <more> ..., uptime, t8 <from> <to> <text> ..., snotback, botsnack, init [<lang>], eval <expr> ..., give <to> <expr> ..., apropos <str> ..., desc <id>, doc <id>
2015-07-17T22:10:16Z teurastaja: rudybot: help apropos
2015-07-17T22:10:17Z rudybot: teurastaja: apropos <str> ...: look for a binding
2015-07-17T22:10:27Z teurastaja: rudybot: apropos apropos
2015-07-17T22:10:27Z rudybot: teurastaja: no matches found
2015-07-17T22:10:32Z teurastaja: rudybot: apropos irc
2015-07-17T22:10:33Z rudybot: teurastaja: no matches found
2015-07-17T22:10:49Z teurastaja: rudybot: commands
2015-07-17T22:10:49Z rudybot: teurastaja: error: commands: undefined; <NEWLINE>  cannot reference an identifier before its definition <NEWLINE>   in module: 'program
2015-07-17T22:11:18Z teurastaja: rudybot: eval program
2015-07-17T22:11:18Z rudybot: teurastaja: error: program: undefined; <NEWLINE>  cannot reference an identifier before its definition <NEWLINE>   in module: 'program
2015-07-17T22:11:31Z teurastaja: rudybot: (program)
2015-07-17T22:11:32Z rudybot: teurastaja: error: program: undefined; <NEWLINE>  cannot reference an identifier before its definition <NEWLINE>   in module: 'program
2015-07-17T22:12:06Z teurastaja: rudybot: (set! program 'crash)
2015-07-17T22:12:06Z rudybot: teurastaja: error: set!: assignment disallowed; <NEWLINE>  cannot set variable before its definition <NEWLINE>   variable: program <NEWLINE>   in module: 'program
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2015-07-17T22:47:26Z teurastaja: anyone knows how to translate a haskell expression  like this into scheme?: im trying to understand the pair in the let
2015-07-17T22:47:30Z teurastaja: interleave    xs     r = let (_,zs) = interleave' id xs r in zs
2015-07-17T22:48:18Z teurastaja: im trying to understand after the let what it could look like in scheme
2015-07-17T22:49:14Z teurastaja: is zs the cdr of something?
2015-07-17T22:49:41Z teurastaja: can we pack it into a pair in scheme?
2015-07-17T22:50:41Z teurastaja: im translating this the code for ``permutations``. looks very clever
2015-07-17T22:50:43Z teurastaja: http://hackage.haskell.org/package/base-4.8.0.0/docs/src/Data-OldList.html#permutations
2015-07-17T22:50:44Z rudybot: http://teensy.info/IwZD50NqNq
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2015-07-17T23:23:52Z teurastaja: :
2015-07-17T23:23:56Z teurastaja: :/
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2015-07-17T23:57:07Z teurastaja: dont answer all at the same time!
2015-07-18T00:02:20Z mario-goulart: oh, I was just waiting for the others to answer!
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2015-07-18T02:11:40Z m1dnight_: Im pondering about a function that takes a list of input N, and returns a list of (sqrt N) sublists of length (sqrt N). Any ideas?
2015-07-18T02:12:01Z m1dnight_: I know there has to be a fast way using BIFs but I cant seem to come up with it.
2015-07-18T02:12:40Z m1dnight_: something like (foldr '() (lambda (x) (take (sqrt N) x)) ..)
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2015-07-18T09:46:04Z zacts: hi schemers
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2015-07-18T09:49:37Z vraid: hiya
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2015-07-18T11:06:48Z pjb: m1dnight_: what if N is not a square?
2015-07-18T11:07:08Z m1dnight_: pjb: in my case i always is
2015-07-18T11:07:11Z m1dnight_: its a grid for a puzzle
2015-07-18T11:07:50Z m1dnight_: At the moment I solved it this way: https://www.refheap.com/106687#L-18
2015-07-18T11:09:08Z pjb: scheme has vectors.
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2015-07-18T11:13:27Z m1dnight_: Euh, i gave the wrong functoin -_-
2015-07-18T11:13:32Z m1dnight_: Hold on
2015-07-18T11:14:19Z m1dnight_: https://www.refheap.com/106688
2015-07-18T11:14:34Z m1dnight_: And yes, but I figured im using lisp so i stuck with lists
2015-07-18T11:15:21Z pjb: You could also program with your hand tied in the back.
2015-07-18T11:15:25Z pjb: And close an eyes.
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2015-07-18T11:50:30Z lewis1711: why is it that (+) and (*) return their identities, but (/) and (-) are errors?
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2015-07-18T11:51:14Z ijp: what should they return?
2015-07-18T11:52:09Z ijp: they have right identities, but not identities
2015-07-18T11:53:02Z lewis1711: ok makes sense for (/)
2015-07-18T11:53:09Z lewis1711: but why should (-) not return 0?
2015-07-18T11:53:41Z ijp: I don't see how it can make sense for one, but not the other
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2015-07-18T11:55:07Z lewis1711: oh right, subtraction is not commutative
2015-07-18T11:55:16Z lewis1711: well that solves that mystery
2015-07-18T11:57:54Z ijp: the multiple arity behaviour of those is kinda weird anyway
2015-07-18T11:58:41Z ijp: sometimes convenient though
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2015-07-18T12:04:22Z LeoNerd: It's handy; it means there's no need for a separate list-taking 'sum' function
2015-07-18T12:04:33Z LeoNerd: (apply + nums)   will do that
2015-07-18T12:04:54Z ijp: not +, - and /
2015-07-18T12:05:07Z LeoNerd: Oh.. right; yes... those. They're wierd
2015-07-18T12:05:47Z ijp: (- a b c ...) = (- a (+ b c ...)) and similarly for /
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2015-07-18T12:17:20Z ronh: (fold-left + 0 nums) would have done the same even if + took just two arguments.
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2015-07-18T15:14:32Z teurastaja: did anyone write anything since yesterday?
2015-07-18T15:14:36Z teurastaja: besides me
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2015-07-18T16:53:17Z nanoz: little schemer books is very hard to read it hurts my eye :(
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2015-07-18T17:03:02Z nanoz: going to search for some other tutorials
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2015-07-18T17:11:10Z nanoz: little schemer is worst book
2015-07-18T17:16:25Z nanoz: S-expressions
2015-07-18T17:16:25Z nanoz: not
2015-07-18T17:16:25Z nanoz: enclosed
2015-07-18T17:16:25Z nanoz: by
2015-07-18T17:16:25Z nanoz: parentheses what does this even mean ?
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2015-07-18T17:23:39Z zacts: hello
2015-07-18T17:23:46Z zacts: nanoz: what didn't you like about the little schemer?
2015-07-18T17:23:53Z zacts: and indeed it takes a different approach
2015-07-18T17:24:03Z zacts: SICP is the main book I think recommended here, along with HTDP
2015-07-18T17:24:26Z nanoz: sicp has lowest rating in amazon.com
2015-07-18T17:24:35Z turtleman_: nanoz: i never read it so i dont know what you mean
2015-07-18T17:24:42Z turtleman_: S-expressions not enclosed by parentheses?
2015-07-18T17:24:46Z turtleman_: like i-expressions? :P
2015-07-18T17:25:16Z nanoz: i wasted my money buying the little schemers :(
2015-07-18T17:25:19Z zacts: nanoz: I see four out of five stars with 207 votes on amazon
2015-07-18T17:25:52Z zacts: along with a review by the famous lisper Peter Norvig http://www.amazon.com/review/R403HR4VL71K8/ref=cm_cr_dp_title?ie=UTF8&ASIN=0262510871&channel=detail-glance&nodeID=283155&store=books
2015-07-18T17:25:52Z rudybot: http://teensy.info/dCNP0hszcK
2015-07-18T17:26:03Z zacts: also I've heard that there have been problems with review spam
2015-07-18T17:26:09Z zacts: and trolls on amazon
2015-07-18T17:26:21Z zacts: Curtis Poe from the Perl community had this problem
2015-07-18T17:26:26Z zacts: and it was on hacker news
2015-07-18T17:26:47Z zacts: but indeed, not everyone totally agrees with the SICP approach. I think that's why HTDP was born
2015-07-18T17:26:54Z nanoz: i'm taking in account of commoner not computer scientist :(
2015-07-18T17:27:16Z zacts: nanoz: well, the little schemers aren't a textbook style of learning
2015-07-18T17:27:21Z zacts: and they aren't meant to be used alone
2015-07-18T17:27:46Z zacts: and how far did you get throught the little schemer?
2015-07-18T17:27:50Z zacts: *through
2015-07-18T17:27:58Z nanoz: little schemer is weird book
2015-07-18T17:28:03Z zacts: (although I'm starting to protest english spellings, thru)
2015-07-18T17:28:03Z nanoz: is it a book
2015-07-18T17:28:05Z nanoz: >
2015-07-18T17:28:06Z nanoz: ?
2015-07-18T17:28:25Z zacts: nanoz: what, yeah the little schemer is a book. you actually end up making a simple scheme interpreter at the end of it iirc
2015-07-18T17:28:32Z zacts: it takes a few chapters before it gets interesting
2015-07-18T17:28:50Z zacts: also, the reasoned schemer teaches the foundations of minikanren, which is what Clojure's core.logic is based on btw
2015-07-18T17:28:54Z nanoz: i threw away at first chapters :(
2015-07-18T17:29:05Z nanoz: chapter*
2015-07-18T17:29:27Z zacts: nanoz: well, I can see how it may be an odd experience at first, but it gets better.... let me link a lecture that explains the why they did this format, and the history of those books
2015-07-18T17:29:50Z zacts: https://youtu.be/IHP7P_HlcBk
2015-07-18T17:29:55Z zacts: ^ he talks about it somewhere in here
2015-07-18T17:30:06Z zacts: Guy Steele Jr. is a co-inventor of scheme
2015-07-18T17:30:14Z zacts: iirc he helped design the language
2015-07-18T17:30:38Z nanoz: https://www.shido.info/lisp/idx_scm_e.html this is better !
2015-07-18T17:30:46Z zacts: anyway nanoz SICP is also free online for you to skim
2015-07-18T17:30:55Z zacts: and there are video lectures for it
2015-07-18T17:31:18Z zacts: but also, what are your goals with scheme?
2015-07-18T17:31:26Z zacts: https://mitpress.mit.edu/sicp/full-text/book/book.html
2015-07-18T17:31:29Z zacts: ^ here is SICP online
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2015-07-18T17:31:48Z nanoz: why they say little schemer is best book wrong idea :( weirdst book of all zacts thats facts :P
2015-07-18T17:32:04Z zacts: nanoz: well, you didn't get past the 1st ch
2015-07-18T17:32:19Z zacts: and I said it takes at least getting thru to ch 4 and 5 before they get useful really
2015-07-18T17:32:35Z zacts: but indeed the format of the book is non-traditional
2015-07-18T17:32:46Z zacts: it's sort of how you interact with a REPL though
2015-07-18T17:32:55Z zacts: and teach your REPL ideas via procedure abstractions
2015-07-18T17:33:05Z zacts: it's teaching the reader in the same way
2015-07-18T17:33:22Z nanoz: yea books must be learnable not non readable/learnable , they say I,Y,S expression and other things which i never heard of must explain these :(
2015-07-18T17:33:30Z zacts: hm... I wonder if you would appreciate the little schemer books more after doing SICP though
2015-07-18T17:33:36Z zacts: and understanding more scheme beforehand
2015-07-18T17:33:51Z zacts: nanoz: ah yeah, that makes sense then
2015-07-18T17:34:14Z zacts: so perhaps SICP, or HTDP, first (or a similar scheme book) and then re-visit the little books after you understand SICP
2015-07-18T17:34:33Z zacts: then you may see more of the greatness of the little books
2015-07-18T17:34:41Z nanoz: http://www.amazon.com/Structure-Interpretation-Computer-Programs-Engineering/dp/0262510871/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1437240373&sr=8-1&keywords=sicp
2015-07-18T17:34:41Z rudybot: http://teensy.info/p9i45tDqAe
2015-07-18T17:34:53Z nanoz: its been rated 1 by 26%
2015-07-18T17:36:02Z nanoz: i'm decided to do this tutorial https://www.shido.info/lisp/idx_scm_e.html
2015-07-18T17:36:54Z nanoz: if i like 'll go  further or else drop :)
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2015-07-18T17:47:19Z turtleman_: nanoz: have you programmed before?
2015-07-18T17:47:41Z turtleman_: i recently found a nice book but its for new-new programmers
2015-07-18T17:48:14Z turtleman_: the one you found looks good too
2015-07-18T17:48:33Z zacts: nanoz: I do know of a couple other books on scheme, but what exactly are your goals with scheme? :-)
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2015-07-18T17:48:56Z zacts: are you just curious about the language, or do you want to learn comp sci, or what 'abstraction' means for computer programming?
2015-07-18T17:49:17Z zacts: and perhaps we could help find better sources and books that may match your specific goals
2015-07-18T17:51:39Z nanoz: i choosed to scheme as a language
2015-07-18T17:52:43Z zacts: for what purpose
2015-07-18T17:53:04Z zacts: are you going to write real software with it, or are you just wanting to learn programming design concepts with scheme?
2015-07-18T17:53:24Z zacts: if you want to write real software with scheme, perhaps you are looking more for references?
2015-07-18T17:53:45Z zacts: if you want to learn programming design concepts, perhaps SICP or HTDP, concrete abstractions, or Scheme and the Art of Programming, and PLAI
2015-07-18T17:54:02Z zacts: for a reference there is this http://www.scheme.com/tspl4/
2015-07-18T17:54:15Z zacts: and the r5rs, srfi, and other reference doc
2015-07-18T17:54:26Z zacts: r5rs is a scheme standard
2015-07-18T17:54:51Z zacts: kind of analogous to how c89 and c99 are C standards... or at least that is my current understanding
2015-07-18T17:55:01Z zacts: (I'm still somewhat newbie myself)
2015-07-18T17:55:15Z zacts: Scheme and the Art of Programming has a free PDF now too
2015-07-18T17:55:37Z zacts: here is one https://www.cs.unm.edu/~williams/cs357/springer-friedman.pdf
2015-07-18T17:55:47Z zacts: there was one at one time on the internet archives iirc
2015-07-18T17:56:04Z zacts: I like the writing tone and style of Scheme and the Art of Programming better than HTDP, personally
2015-07-18T17:56:10Z zacts: and it's about at the same level of difficulty
2015-07-18T17:56:18Z zacts: but it's not quite as difficult or intense as SICP
2015-07-18T17:56:42Z zacts: also nanoz perhaps you should skim the online SICP book to judge for yourself if it would be useful, rather than relying on amazon reviews alone
2015-07-18T17:56:55Z zacts: many people here will recommend SICP as being the gold standard for scheme and programming books
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2015-07-18T17:57:29Z pjb`: And also: How to Design Programs -- An Introduction to Computing and Programming  http://www.htdp.org/2003-09-26/Book/
2015-07-18T17:57:43Z zacts: SICP was, and is still an option I think, for the MIT intro to comp sci 6.001 course
2015-07-18T17:57:53Z zacts: pjb`: yeah, I should have expanded my HTDP acronym...
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2015-07-18T17:58:05Z zacts: personally, I don't like newspeak or twitter speak
2015-07-18T17:58:22Z zacts: I'm falling into the social traps of these lingos... I want to protest. but ah well...
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2015-07-18T17:59:23Z pjb`: zacts: It's the book for 6.S184, the introduction to comp sci for comp sci students.  http://web.mit.edu/alexmv/6.S184/
2015-07-18T17:59:33Z pjb`: 6.001 is intro to comp sci for non comp sci students…
2015-07-18T17:59:40Z zacts: oh is that the modern rendition of what 6.001 was?
2015-07-18T17:59:43Z zacts: or am I confused
2015-07-18T18:00:15Z zacts: I think http://ocw.mit.edu/courses/electrical-engineering-and-computer-science/6-001-structure-and-interpretation-of-computer-programs-spring-2005/
2015-07-18T18:00:15Z rudybot: http://teensy.info/FhrLqpIimy
2015-07-18T18:00:18Z zacts: ^ this is what confused me
2015-07-18T18:00:23Z zacts: it lists the course number as 6.001
2015-07-18T18:00:31Z pjb`: That said, the error of using python for non comp sci students, is that they will start to write program, and then call professionnal programmers to correct their bugs, and we'll be stuck with python, instead of having scheme programs to work on.
2015-07-18T18:00:32Z zacts: as taught in spring of 2005
2015-07-18T18:00:46Z zacts: lol heh
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2015-07-18T18:01:07Z zacts: pjb`: I think UC@Berkeley made an ugly stepsister of SICP, with python as the implementation language
2015-07-18T18:01:09Z Riastradh: 6.001 is no longer a thing at MIT.
2015-07-18T18:01:12Z zacts: ah ok
2015-07-18T18:01:20Z pjb`: Good.
2015-07-18T18:01:23Z zacts: I much prefer the original SICP 2nd edition I think
2015-07-18T18:01:52Z zacts: but I'm still working through it, as my real life obligations also eat away at the same time
2015-07-18T18:02:14Z zacts: teaching SICP with python just I think seems weird to me
2015-07-18T18:02:28Z zacts: oh, wasn't there an article on this
2015-07-18T18:02:50Z Riastradh: pjb's snooty remark that it was for non-CS students is untrue.
2015-07-18T18:02:56Z zacts: https://www.cs.berkeley.edu/~bh/proglang.html
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2015-07-18T18:03:13Z zacts: also http://www.eecs.berkeley.edu/~bh/sicp.html
2015-07-18T18:03:16Z zacts: there's these
2015-07-18T18:03:34Z zacts: I think Brian Harvey was the previous lead comp sci 61A (SICP) instructor before they made the switch
2015-07-18T18:04:41Z Riastradh: SICP-based 6.001 at MIT ceased about eight years ago.
2015-07-18T18:05:22Z zacts: cool http://icampustutor.csail.mit.edu/6.001-public/tutor.cgi?op=registration-page
2015-07-18T18:05:23Z rudybot: http://teensy.info/o2dRVlNiNM
2015-07-18T18:05:26Z zacts: http://icampustutor.csail.mit.edu/6.001-public/
2015-07-18T18:05:31Z zacts: an online MIT SICP tutor
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2015-07-18T20:45:52Z zacts: anyway, afternoon again
2015-07-18T20:49:45Z pjb`: post meridian
2015-07-18T20:53:32Z vraid: pjb`: let's do away with longitudes and create a post-meridian world
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2015-07-18T21:02:36Z zacts: alright
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2015-07-18T21:02:57Z zacts: so is the book The Art of the Metaobject Protocol useful for someone like me who is learning (scheme), but doesn't know any common lisp?
2015-07-18T21:03:19Z zacts: but I want to understand OOPish programming (OOPish, the 'ish' because there doesn't seem to be a formal definition of what OOP really is?)
2015-07-18T21:03:32Z zacts: and scheme clones of CLOS like the CHICKEN egg coops
2015-07-18T21:03:44Z zacts: (this is after SICP ch3)
2015-07-18T21:04:15Z zacts: although, I don't really have a desire to learn Common Lisp right now
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2015-07-18T21:10:47Z pjb`: AMOP is meta-oo, not oo.
2015-07-18T21:10:55Z pjb`: I'm not sure it would help learning oo.
2015-07-18T21:11:43Z pjb`: http://www.cs.indiana.edu/scheme-repository/code.oop.html
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2015-07-18T21:13:00Z lewis1711: I've heard it's a really good book regardless though (: and writing an object system in scheme is great fun
2015-07-18T21:13:25Z lewis1711: making that object system performant is less fun probably :D
2015-07-18T21:13:32Z pjb`: Sure, but if you don't want to lean CL (including CLOS) first, it might be hard to understand.
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2015-07-18T21:13:43Z pjb`: Of course, some people have implemented the MOP in C++…
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2015-07-18T21:14:52Z lewis1711: let us not speak these words of evil here so close to mordor
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2015-07-18T21:32:03Z zacts: what is meta-oo?
2015-07-18T21:32:38Z zacts: but indeed my goal is to even understand OOP and CLOS-like systems in the first place
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2015-07-18T21:37:37Z daviid: zacts: http://www.dreamsongs.com/CLOS.html
2015-07-18T21:39:18Z zacts: oh neat thanks daviid
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2015-07-18T21:44:50Z daviid: zacts: wc! I recommand to read/study well "The Common Lisp Object System: An Overview" [pdf] and especially read 3.6
2015-07-18T21:45:50Z zacts: ah ok
2015-07-18T21:46:19Z zacts: what is it specifically that makes CLOS great, so to speak?
2015-07-18T21:46:26Z zacts: Note: I did also ask this on #clnoobs just now
2015-07-18T21:46:37Z zacts: but a #scheme perspective may be nice too
2015-07-18T21:47:16Z daviid: then guile's goops manual is almost a copy of the stklos manual, which a little easier to read: http://www.stklos.net/Doc/html/stklos-ref-8.html#STklos-Object-System
2015-07-18T21:47:22Z zacts: oh and wc! <-- do you mean the UNIX uitility wc, or your welcome?
2015-07-18T21:48:11Z daviid: zacts: don't have time to walk you through this, just read/study and practice using sbcl or guile [there are 2 serious bugs but you won't hit them until...]
2015-07-18T21:48:39Z daviid: wc - welcome, I think
2015-07-18T21:48:42Z zacts: ah ok
2015-07-18T21:48:56Z zacts: oh that's ok, I can look further into coops and oop myself
2015-07-18T21:49:05Z zacts: but thanks for the info and resources thus far
2015-07-18T21:49:36Z daviid: happy to help, once you know more, be happy to answer 'real' quizz
2015-07-18T21:51:12Z zacts: sure
2015-07-18T21:52:17Z pjb`: zacts: meta-oo is a oo system designed to write oo systems.
2015-07-18T21:52:37Z zacts: so you metaprogram and oo system?
2015-07-18T21:52:42Z zacts: thus the 'meta' prefix?
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2015-07-18T22:00:26Z pjb`: You can implement an OO system in any programming style.
2015-07-18T22:00:41Z pjb`: If you use the OOP style to implement an OO system, then you are doing meta-OOP.
2015-07-18T22:01:03Z zacts: oh I see
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2015-07-19T17:18:01Z ghost_runner: On a scale from one to ten, rank SICP. Just curious as to what you Schemers think about the book.
2015-07-19T17:18:17Z ghost_runner: On a scale from one to ten, rank SICP. Just curious as to what you Lispers think about the book.
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2015-07-19T17:52:00Z wasamasa: wat
2015-07-19T17:52:06Z wasamasa just missed this
2015-07-19T17:57:27Z Steverman: ok
2015-07-19T17:58:44Z zacts: um... that is such a subjective rating
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2015-07-19T18:21:33Z newbie___: i'm pretty confused of bigger language like haskell ,erlang so want to start something small so have started with scheme
2015-07-19T18:24:25Z newbie___: is this right place
2015-07-19T18:24:27Z newbie___: >
2015-07-19T18:25:37Z zacts: newbie___: scheme is a good place to start. I'm starting with scheme too
2015-07-19T18:25:44Z zacts: and I have future goals for Haskell too
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2015-07-19T18:56:53Z newbie___: k have installed scheme for windows when on typing (+ 3 7) nothing seems to happen
2015-07-19T18:56:57Z newbie___: whats wrong ?
2015-07-19T18:59:50Z newbie___: zacts
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2015-07-19T19:49:40Z pjb`: zacts: nope, objective: 12.
2015-07-19T19:50:30Z pjb`: newbie___: did you install mit-scheme? http://www.gnu.org/software/mit-scheme/
2015-07-19T19:50:47Z pjb`: http://www.gnu.org/software/mit-scheme/documentation/mit-scheme-user/Windows-Installation.html
2015-07-19T19:50:47Z rudybot: http://teensy.info/tYp3ZqQhbP
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2015-07-19T19:55:19Z pjb`: newbie___: in edwin, you should type C-x C-e to evaluate an expression; the result is inserted in the *scheme* buffer. (and echoed in the minibuffer).
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2015-07-20T06:51:16Z undo-all: What features did r6rs add that were seen as unnecessary and bloated?
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2015-07-20T07:17:22Z pjb: The problem I think is more that it is a big monolith, which makes a big difference with r5rs which is a 50-page standard.  So r7rs "modularize" in a way r6rs, by definining r7rs-small similar to r5rs, and r7rs-big containing all the additionnal features and libraries that people expect from a "modern" "popular" "all-batteries-included" "language".
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2015-07-20T14:48:19Z 
2015-07-20T14:48:19Z names: ccl-logbot teiresias _sjs githogori rsforest psy_ cartwright vikraman pchrist_ kbtr dsp__ asumu_ niklasl2 undo_all askatasuna aeth leppie rbryan oleo badkins larion ivan\ civodul aap turtleman_ spew davexunit jsgrant- acarrico przl DGASAU Steverman tmtwd kuribas redeemed quasus msgodf karswell bjz FireFly ggherdov ohama mumptai superjudge ELLIOTTCABLE arrubin strmpnk Ettore greghendershott twem2 samth clog pjdelport nee lritter ronh cibs dytrivedi
2015-07-20T14:48:19Z names: kwmiebach cojy Gianormagantrous ggole c74d ArneBab_ carif_ cross mark_weaver Saeren_ yrdz yosafbridge rstone vraid joneshf-laptop jrslepak aretecode Tbone139 nisstyre chishiki mach torpig choas petercommand fikusz dxtr nowhere_man_ sethalves micro` rx80 add^_ synthmeat cdidd igajsin drdo Natch abbe taij33n- copec akkad carc gabot jkraemer ada2358 mario-goulart benaiah dualbus stasku cky pygospa mikeyhc finnrobi_ SirDayBat fizzie ineiros sad0ur vifino
2015-07-20T14:48:19Z names: lloda SHODAN erg gnomon diginet dsp_ Kryo duncanm_ zbigniew tmh_ wasamasa DerGuteMoritz rotty1 cjh` eMBee antoszka PinealGlandOptic s1n4 ski averell pecg disciple henrytill ozzloy chazu ft narendraj9 xfz ec\_ haasn GGMethos scoofy tristero r0kc4t_ fionnan b4283 amoe gf3 EnergyCoffee Blkt_ foof mlaine hive-mind mrowe_away dan64 emma z0d Kruppe jyc stux|work m1dnight_ zacts low-profile juanfra LeoNerd XTL keemyb stamourv tessier Razz Tenhi aking
2015-07-20T14:48:19Z names: ByronJohnson rudybot dpk nitrix baelor fadein Khisanth fds klutometis _0x5eb_ ecraven balkamos turbofail cmatei defanor FracV weinholt haroldwu_ evhan eagleflo fgudin tm512 dmiles_afk
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2015-07-20T17:04:57Z newbie___: my MIT/GNU scheme is not working
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2015-07-20T17:06:18Z oleo: try racket
2015-07-20T17:07:43Z davexunit: or guile
2015-07-20T17:08:36Z mario-goulart: or node.js, in case you can't find a working scheme implementation.
2015-07-20T17:12:23Z newbie___: why cant i run my MIT/GNU scheme in windows ?
2015-07-20T17:13:56Z mario-goulart: newbie___: in case windows is a supported platform, maybe you should describe the error you are getting.
2015-07-20T17:17:55Z ecraven: newbie___: it should work
2015-07-20T17:18:05Z ecraven: newbie___: what exactly does "is not working" mean?
2015-07-20T17:19:38Z newbie___: i have installed  MIT/GNU scheme , on clicking MIT/GNU scheme i get this http://postimg.org/image/h6kwrm6lp/
2015-07-20T17:19:44Z newbie___: aborted
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2015-07-20T17:21:10Z ecraven: can you run it from a command shell / dos window?
2015-07-20T17:21:26Z newbie___: how to do that
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2015-07-20T17:30:33Z davexunit: trying to do software development on windows is bound to lead to a bad time.
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2015-07-20T17:35:41Z newbie___: http://postimg.org/image/p9nlzxd7f/
2015-07-20T17:35:52Z newbie___: ecraven:
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2015-07-20T17:42:50Z ecraven: newbie___: it seems your mit-scheme cannot find the load band. this might be related to an incomplete install
2015-07-20T17:43:03Z ecraven: I've never tried it on windows, did you follow the installation instructions on the homepage?
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2015-07-20T17:47:15Z newbie___: installed :)
2015-07-20T17:47:33Z newbie___: i made a folder local and made all.com in that
2015-07-20T17:48:03Z newbie___: all.com from installed folder mit-scheme
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2015-07-20T22:23:28Z sixpindin: hello, I'm starting off in scheme, reading the wizard book, I like emacs, can anybody link me a recommended guide on how to proceed? - I've tried and failed with guile.
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2015-07-20T22:29:39Z daviid: sixpindin: try geiser
2015-07-20T22:30:05Z daviid: sixpindin: which guiler version are you using ?
2015-07-20T22:30:42Z daviid: sixpindin: http://www.nongnu.org/geiser/
2015-07-20T22:31:08Z daviid: sixpindin: http://www.nongnu.org/geiser/geiser_3.html#The-REPL
2015-07-20T22:33:09Z sixpindin: daviid: thanks, guile was verions 2.0.11 - I've just got confused and messed up something, I think. Thanks for the links. When in emacs, will guile be a major mode? - or am I to run scheme mode and then 'run guile' and send buffers/regions to it?
2015-07-20T22:33:48Z sixpindin: I know that's a painfully noobish thing to ask, I'll work through those links, perhaps discover the answer...
2015-07-20T22:37:06Z sixpindin: Answer was in first sentence of first link...thanks
2015-07-20T22:37:31Z daviid: install geiser, this is highly recommanded
2015-07-20T22:37:38Z daviid: then M-x run-guile
2015-07-20T22:38:01Z sixpindin: ok, thanks for the pointers :)
2015-07-20T22:38:10Z daviid: guile 2.0.11 is the latest stable, you're good to go!
2015-07-20T22:38:34Z daviid: wc!
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2015-07-21T02:26:36Z zacts: pjb: what was subjective was the number of stars corresponding to what schemers really think about the book
2015-07-21T02:26:48Z zacts: although, if you had an either on or off measurement
2015-07-21T02:26:56Z zacts: they like SICP or they don't, then ok
2015-07-21T02:27:06Z zacts: but anything in between with that kind of measurement is subjective
2015-07-21T02:28:12Z zacts: imo
2015-07-21T02:28:37Z zacts: I guess my point was just that I dislike star ratings for measurement of how much someone liked something
2015-07-21T02:28:40Z zacts: :-)
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2015-07-21T03:04:10Z the_modulator: I'm looking for a functional language that will help me improve my algorithm design, due to having experience in the functional paradigm. I'm also looking for a functional language that will be useful in the long-run as well. (I keep reading online that Lisp, in general, is dead.)
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2015-07-21T03:04:28Z the_modulator: Would I be better off learning Haskell or a Lisp (more than likely Scheme)? I only have enough time to start and work with one of them, so, I'd like to hear the opinions of others on this matter. :)
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2015-07-21T03:10:12Z mikeyhc: is this just for self improvement or are you looking for employment in functional programming afterwards
2015-07-21T03:11:08Z the_modulator: Self improvement. I'm a hobbyist.
2015-07-21T03:11:47Z mikeyhc: scheme and haskell are both good choices in that case
2015-07-21T03:12:32Z mikeyhc: IMO lisp is too bloated for me ever to be comfortable with
2015-07-21T03:14:38Z mikeyhc: scheme shows how powerful functional programming can be by combining a small number of primitives to create everything
2015-07-21T03:16:12Z mikeyhc: haskell shows you how a strong type system can reduce the amount of testing required to have faith in your code
2015-07-21T03:16:42Z mikeyhc: I tend to stick to scheme when hacking around as haskells type system can cut both ways, leading to you writing lots of extra code to accomidate it
2015-07-21T03:36:56Z rx80: also, scheme is more fun
2015-07-21T03:41:35Z cojy: scheme is the most fun
2015-07-21T03:41:39Z cojy: ocaml is nice too
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2015-07-21T04:12:01Z jyc: ^
2015-07-21T04:12:37Z jyc: scheme and ocaml are both very nice
2015-07-21T04:13:12Z jyc: sometimes I feel like Haskell goes way too far, haha
2015-07-21T04:14:47Z mikeyhc: haskell is great once you have the legwork done
2015-07-21T04:15:17Z mikeyhc: once all your types and typeclasses are set up writting code becomes very easy
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2015-07-21T04:56:47Z tennix: functional style programming is getting more popular these days, if you just want to play with functional programming language and learn its concepts, i think haskell is a good choice for you
2015-07-21T04:57:10Z tennix: As it's pure functional
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2015-07-21T05:53:45Z pjdelport: I'm a big fan of both Scheme and Haskell, for self-improvement / hobbying.
2015-07-21T05:53:54Z pjdelport: Both have a lot to teach. They complement each other well.
2015-07-21T05:54:11Z pjdelport: Haskell in the big, Scheme in the small.
2015-07-21T05:54:45Z pjdelport: (which is not a slight against Scheme at all)
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2015-07-21T09:22:31Z wickedtrippy: Okay, so, here's my story: I'm a 17-year-old, beginner, hobbyist programmer who wants to learn the logic behind the craft of programming and gain a deep understanding of it, as I think that is the most vital requirement to actually making good programs and essentially obtaining to option to spread into other sub-branches of the science. To do this, I've sought a good book, and was constantly told to read one titled "Structure an
2015-07-21T09:22:35Z wickedtrippy: and given the parenthesized link (http://xuanji.appspot.com/isicp/) to achieve this task. My problem is, I've been dabbling with languages like Java, C, and C++ because I've heard that they are more prominent than that Lisp variant used in the aforementioned book -- Scheme. I'd personally like to co-learn a language with a bit more relevance than Scheme, but at the same time, would be more than willing to learn with this book us
2015-07-21T09:22:38Z wickedtrippy: it is true that it will impart a deep, ingrained understanding of computer science and principal fundamentals of programming via Scheme (that I hope will enable me to create interesting things). This aside, I've also been reluctant to read the book because of its MIT origins, as I feel it could be hyped and praised so much only due to that fact. My question is: Considering the above information I've given you about myself and my
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2015-07-21T09:24:05Z pjdelport: wickedtrippy: I think your messages got cut off there.
2015-07-21T09:24:32Z pjdelport: You first line only goes to: told to read one titled "Structure an
2015-07-21T09:24:46Z pjdelport: Second line: learn with this book us
2015-07-21T09:24:56Z pjdelport: Third line: about myself and my
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2015-07-21T09:26:13Z pjdelport: wickedtrippy: With that said, from what did get through, you should definitely not lose anything by studying Scheme: what you learn will be very applicable to Java, C / C++, Python, or most other languages.
2015-07-21T09:26:42Z wickedtrippy: Cool. :D
2015-07-21T09:27:17Z pjdelport: Structure and Interpretation of Computer Programs is a very good book, and should teach you very much. It uses Scheme as its medium, but nothing it teaches is really limited to Scheme.
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2015-07-21T09:28:51Z wickedtrippy: pjdelport: If I can finish such a book, would it be safe to say that I could pick up other languages and such with relative ease afterwards? Would if set me well on my way to becoming a (hobbyist) programmer?
2015-07-21T09:29:08Z wasamasa: nope
2015-07-21T09:29:25Z wasamasa: for that you'd need to master at least one language and ideally know a few more
2015-07-21T09:30:06Z wasamasa: once you have like three vastly different languages under your belt, picking up new ones will become simple
2015-07-21T09:30:13Z wasamasa: it's similiar with natural languages
2015-07-21T09:31:02Z wickedtrippy: wasamasa: Is SICP a better overall introduction to programming than that book "The C Programming Language"?
2015-07-21T09:31:17Z wickedtrippy: Because that book was also recommended to me by a few.
2015-07-21T09:31:29Z wasamasa: wickedtrippy: you'll learn way more higher-level concepts from SICP
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2015-07-21T09:31:55Z wasamasa: wickedtrippy: whether you consider that to be better is up to you, the book was intended as the first lecture of a starting CS student
2015-07-21T09:32:19Z pjdelport: wickedtrippy: "The C Programming Language" is an excellent text about C, but it won't teach you anything as much as SICP.
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2015-07-21T09:32:32Z pjdelport: It's not a text about programming in general.
2015-07-21T09:32:44Z pjdelport: SICP is more about programming in general than about Scheme.
2015-07-21T09:32:57Z pjdelport: (Arguably, anyway. :)
2015-07-21T09:33:17Z pjdelport: K&R is more about C than about programming in general. :)
2015-07-21T09:33:25Z wickedtrippy: So, I should go with SICP if I want to improve my algorithm design and problem solving skills?
2015-07-21T09:33:40Z wasamasa: well...
2015-07-21T09:33:49Z wasamasa: that's a separate topic better covered by different books
2015-07-21T09:33:56Z pjdelport: wickedtrippy: Compared to K&R, definitely; there's not even a comparison.
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2015-07-21T09:34:08Z wasamasa: like, How To Solve It
2015-07-21T09:34:20Z wasamasa: or the many algorithm-specific books
2015-07-21T09:34:55Z pjdelport: wickedtrippy: To answer your earlier question, you should be able to pick up other languages pretty easily even before you finish SICP.
2015-07-21T09:35:56Z pjdelport: (Some people actually go through SICP doing the exercises in a language of their choice, other than Scheme.)
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2015-07-21T09:38:19Z wickedtrippy: Are there any good algorithm design books using C?
2015-07-21T09:38:28Z wickedtrippy: (Just curious is all.)
2015-07-21T09:38:50Z wasamasa: pretty much all of them use it
2015-07-21T09:39:08Z wasamasa: knuth's works would be one of the exceptions
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2015-07-21T09:42:28Z wickedtrippy: Thanks for everyting. Gotta' go. Bye! :D
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2015-07-21T18:44:20Z newbie___: (- 10 3 5)  → 2
2015-07-21T18:44:26Z newbie___: what this means
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2015-07-21T18:44:48Z newbie___: (* 2 3 4) → 24?
2015-07-21T18:45:16Z Riastradh: rudybot: eval (- 10 3 5)
2015-07-21T18:45:17Z rudybot: Riastradh: your sandbox is ready
2015-07-21T18:45:17Z rudybot: Riastradh: ; Value: 2
2015-07-21T18:45:21Z Riastradh: rudybot: eval (- (- 10 3) 5)
2015-07-21T18:45:21Z rudybot: Riastradh: ; Value: 2
2015-07-21T18:45:26Z Riastradh: rudybot: eval (- 10 (+ 3 5))
2015-07-21T18:45:26Z rudybot: Riastradh: ; Value: 2
2015-07-21T18:45:36Z Riastradh: rudybot: eval (* 2 3 4)
2015-07-21T18:45:36Z rudybot: Riastradh: ; Value: 24
2015-07-21T18:45:40Z Riastradh: rudybot: eval (* 2 (* 3 4))
2015-07-21T18:45:40Z rudybot: Riastradh: ; Value: 24
2015-07-21T18:45:45Z Riastradh: rudybot: eval (* (* 2 3) 4)
2015-07-21T18:45:45Z rudybot: Riastradh: ; Value: 24
2015-07-21T18:46:24Z newbie___: i dont understand
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2015-07-21T18:47:11Z newbie___: (- (- 10 3) 5) ?
2015-07-21T18:47:50Z newbie___: Riastradh can you help me on this
2015-07-21T18:47:50Z vraid: newbie___: 10 - 3 - 5 = 2
2015-07-21T18:56:28Z pjdelport: newbie___: It's prefix function application syntax; does that make sense?
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2015-07-21T18:57:02Z newbie___: its weird thats all i can say :D
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2015-07-21T18:57:32Z pjdelport: Instead of "<value> <op> <value>", you write "(<op> <value> <value>)"
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2015-07-21T18:57:57Z pjdelport: or "(<op> <value> <value> <value> ...)" with more than two values, potentially.
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2015-07-21T18:59:02Z vraid: newbie___: maybe (+ 1 2 3) makes more sense?
2015-07-21T18:59:15Z newbie___: yep
2015-07-21T18:59:41Z newbie___: is it from left to right or right to left ?
2015-07-21T18:59:55Z vraid: (- 1 2 3) can be rewritten as (- 1 (+ 2 3))
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2015-07-21T19:00:24Z vraid: e.g the first is subtracted by all following arguments
2015-07-21T19:02:10Z pjdelport: newbie___: Think of it as a function with multiple parameters: the parameters aren't necessarily evaluated in any particular order.
2015-07-21T19:02:32Z pjdelport: Scheme's + is the sum function: it calculates the sum of all the numbers you give it.
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2015-07-21T19:02:53Z newbie___: is + is overloaded ?
2015-07-21T19:03:17Z newbie___: like in java
2015-07-21T19:03:46Z pjdelport: Not in the Java sense, but Scheme defines how it works with Scheme's hierarchy of number types.
2015-07-21T19:04:28Z pjdelport: Scheme implementations differ in the details, but you can generally add different types together and get sensible results.
2015-07-21T19:04:36Z pjdelport: (different numeric types, that is)
2015-07-21T19:04:49Z newbie___: hmmm
2015-07-21T19:06:53Z rx80: but you could overload it yourself.
2015-07-21T19:07:11Z rx80: you can make + work for strings and numbers if you wanted
2015-07-21T19:07:40Z rx80: but it's technicaly not the same
2015-07-21T19:10:45Z vraid: newbie___: it's called variadic arity. the function takes any number of arguments
2015-07-21T19:10:49Z vraid: rudybot: (+)
2015-07-21T19:10:49Z rudybot: vraid: your sandbox is ready
2015-07-21T19:10:50Z rudybot: vraid: ; Value: 0
2015-07-21T19:11:32Z vraid: calling + with no arguments returns the additive identity
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2015-07-21T19:11:53Z rx80: (*) too
2015-07-21T19:12:37Z vraid: well, multiplicative in that case
2015-07-21T19:13:04Z rx80: rudybot: (*)
2015-07-21T19:13:04Z rudybot: rx80: your sandbox is ready
2015-07-21T19:13:04Z rudybot: rx80: ; Value: 1
2015-07-21T19:13:30Z newbie___: yes, returns (*) - > 1 and (+)->0 , (-) -> error
2015-07-21T19:14:25Z vraid: newbie___: - and / are somewhat inconsistent though
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2015-07-21T19:14:44Z vraid: in that (- n) is the same as (- 0 n)
2015-07-21T19:14:46Z newbie___: ?
2015-07-21T19:14:50Z vraid: and (/ n) is the same as (/ 1 n)
2015-07-21T19:15:34Z rx80: or, they are not inconsisten, if you think about them the other way
2015-07-21T19:15:54Z rx80: (* 2 3 4) is always (* 1 2 3 4)
2015-07-21T19:16:05Z rx80: (* 2 3 4) is always (* (*) 2 3 4)
2015-07-21T19:16:17Z rx80: and (+ 2 3 4) is (+ (+) 2 3 4)
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2015-07-21T19:16:32Z rx80: then they're all kinda same
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2015-07-21T19:16:53Z newbie___: yea i understood everything :(
2015-07-21T19:17:13Z rx80: well, i got my example a bit wrong
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2015-07-21T19:17:23Z rx80: forget it
2015-07-21T19:18:08Z rx80: newbie___: do you have a scheme installed?
2015-07-21T19:18:19Z vraid: - and / with 1 argument are inverses, while with more they are subtraction and division
2015-07-21T19:18:19Z newbie___: ofc
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2015-07-21T19:20:36Z rx80: newbie___: there are also very good videos and books on learning scheme
2015-07-21T19:21:06Z rx80: since different people learn differently, it's hard to know if you learn better like this, or from video or book
2015-07-21T19:21:57Z newbie___: if i can understand the logic of this may be i can understand much better :/
2015-07-21T19:22:44Z rx80: from channel title: https://mitpress.mit.edu/sicp/
2015-07-21T19:22:49Z rx80: this is a good free book
2015-07-21T19:23:18Z rx80: starts here: https://mitpress.mit.edu/sicp/full-text/book/book-Z-H-1.html
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2015-07-22T18:23:14Z newbie____: scheme is hard
2015-07-22T18:23:53Z wasamasa nods gravely
2015-07-22T18:31:54Z gnomon nods goofily
2015-07-22T18:32:39Z pjb: scheme is hard, let's go shopping.
2015-07-22T18:32:52Z newbie____: ya!!!
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2015-07-23T02:25:22Z zacts: hello schemers
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2015-07-23T02:48:32Z vraid: hiya zacts
2015-07-23T02:48:40Z vraid: worked on anything interesting lately?
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2015-07-23T04:40:25Z zacts: hey back for a sec
2015-07-23T04:40:31Z zacts: vraid: the little prover
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2015-07-23T06:30:14Z zacts: I may have some questions regarding a .scm file for the little prover, I think the source may be buggy
2015-07-23T06:30:45Z zacts: namely, https://github.com/the-little-prover/j-bob
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2015-07-23T09:45:55Z boycottg00gle: i have a generator of some random numbers and want to amend it with running statistics (median, multiple quantils, standard deviation, .... similar to gnu r summary) - how would you do that in an elegant way - i tried with gauche's gmap-accum and don't like my solution so far ?
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2015-07-23T09:47:42Z boycottg00gle: maybe s/amend/supplement
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2015-07-23T11:42:30Z z0d: boycottg00gle: what do you mean by elegant way?
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2015-07-23T11:48:16Z pjb: What's not to be liked in your solution?
2015-07-23T11:48:19Z pjb: Why didn't lisppaste it?
2015-07-23T11:48:36Z pjb: You really don't seem to be wanting any help.
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2015-07-23T13:30:37Z boycottg00gle: hmm http://paste.lisp.org/new/scheme doesn't work?
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2015-07-23T13:32:39Z boycottg00gle: pjb: http://karme.de/delme/stats.scm
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2015-07-23T13:39:57Z pjb: Just http://paste.lisp.org/new ; the link with irc is cut for spam.
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2015-07-23T13:41:07Z pjb: boycottg00gle: if you have a random generator: (lambda () …) perhaps you want to replace it with a random generator that keeps statistics.  But then, you don't return the stats, you'd store them somewhere.
2015-07-23T13:41:51Z pjb: (define myrandom (wrap-stats (lambda () (random 10))))  (list (myrandom) (myrandom) (myrandom)) --> (1 2 3)  (stats) --> (…)
2015-07-23T13:42:15Z pjb: So my first question would be that, is the API what doesn't satisfies you?
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2015-07-23T13:42:33Z boycottg00gle: basically all places marked with todo
2015-07-23T13:43:09Z boycottg00gle: the api i more or less like now
2015-07-23T13:44:49Z boycottg00gle: at the core i also wondered about a generator-tee
2015-07-23T13:45:06Z pjb: there's no good way to avoid the cond notice how first you assign x and then (f x last).
2015-07-23T13:45:07Z boycottg00gle: but decided it would be a bad idea
2015-07-23T13:45:35Z pjb: insert-in-order, you just have to write it.
2015-07-23T13:47:42Z pjb: I'm not sure it's possible to update the median without keeping all the data.  On the other hand, you could keep a different data structure: keep the median, and a smallest list sorted decreasingly and a biggest list sorted increasingly.
2015-07-23T13:48:32Z pjb: You can put several functions in the same closure, so that you don't have to keep several times the sorted list.
2015-07-23T13:49:08Z pjb: Globally, I don't find it too bad.
2015-07-23T13:50:54Z boycottg00gle: will think about your comments, thanks for the review!
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2015-07-23T13:52:46Z pjb: along with the median and the two lists, you need to keep a flag indicating which list is longer by 1 if any, to know which will be the new median.
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2015-07-23T14:21:02Z boycottg00gle: hmm if i keep all values there is not much point in using generators - in context with median/quantil i could look for some approximation/estimate ...
2015-07-23T14:23:31Z boycottg00gle: but then maybe i should split it into 2 steps: 1. random sampling with bounded memory of generated values 2. calculate median/quantil of current set ...
2015-07-23T14:36:38Z pjb: the only way to compute an approximation I see, would be to build an histogram, and to give the median class.
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2015-07-23T14:47:52Z boycottg00gle: pjb: very interesting idea
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2015-07-23T14:58:29Z boycottg00gle: just found racket's related stuff: http://docs.racket-lang.org/math/stats.html#%28part._stats~3arunning%29
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2015-07-23T15:13:07Z pjb: boycottg00gle: http://paste.lisp.org/+39DL
2015-07-23T15:15:49Z boycottg00gle: pjb: cool
2015-07-23T15:16:29Z pjb: the else case is wrong, you cannot cons new-value willy-nilly, you have to do the insert car/cdr dance too.
2015-07-23T15:16:50Z pjb: Oh, but then (= median new-value) so it's ok. Sorry.
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2015-07-23T15:23:27Z boycottg00gle: another idea: one could argue that at some time the median will stabilize and one maybe could swap out the outer ranges
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2015-07-23T15:29:19Z pjb: You're assuming about the random function…
2015-07-23T15:29:43Z pjb: In a general solution, the generator could be not random.
2015-07-23T15:34:12Z boycottg00gle: hmm yeah, i could reorder in random ;-)
2015-07-23T15:35:01Z boycottg00gle: pjb: thanks for your time - hope you had as much fun as i did
2015-07-23T15:35:51Z pjb: Yes :-)
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2015-07-24T02:33:39Z ghost_runner: I'm a beginner and I'm curious: What will SICP/Scheme teach me/help me learn? :)
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2015-07-25T01:21:40Z janugus: Should I Learn Programming With SICP Or Python?
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2015-07-25T02:52:51Z teurastaja: i want to randomly swap members of a set while garanteeing the each member is not at its original place
2015-07-25T02:53:00Z teurastaja: clever way to do it?
2015-07-25T02:54:30Z teurastaja: i implemented knuths vector shuffle. its called 'shuffle!
2015-07-25T02:55:15Z teurastaja: but if theres a better way to do it... maybe some data structure?
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2015-07-25T03:25:41Z Riastradh: teurastaja: Swap the ith element with the jth for j in [0, i), not in [0, i].
2015-07-25T03:26:26Z teurastaja: what is [0, i)? is it [0, i[ ?
2015-07-25T03:26:58Z Riastradh: Yes.
2015-07-25T03:27:15Z Riastradh: That is, replace (random-integer (+ i 1)) by (random-integer i) to choose j.
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2015-07-25T03:28:28Z teurastaja: not sure i understand. are you talking about the knuth shuffle?
2015-07-25T03:30:01Z teurastaja: but with (+ i  1) replaced but i??
2015-07-25T03:30:18Z teurastaja: **but with (+ i  1) replaced by i??
2015-07-25T03:35:01Z pjb: shuffle is O(n), so it gets hardly better.
2015-07-25T03:36:29Z teurastaja: not sure i understand Riastradhs solution but heres mine: http://pastebin.com/istCXYvk
2015-07-25T03:36:51Z teurastaja: can i get a demo of his algorithm in scheme?
2015-07-25T03:37:12Z teurastaja: to make sure i understand
2015-07-25T03:38:36Z Riastradh: teurastaja: `Are you talking about the Knuth shuffle?'  Yes.
2015-07-25T03:39:56Z teurastaja: can you modify my shuffle! to make sure i understand well? you mean i replace (+ i 1) with i?
2015-07-25T03:40:12Z Riastradh: Use (rand m) instead of (rand n).
2015-07-25T03:40:36Z Riastradh: i = m, in this case, and n = i + 1.
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2015-07-25T03:41:23Z Riastradh: See <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fisher%E2%80%93Yates_shuffle#Sattolo.27s_algorithm>.
2015-07-25T03:41:23Z rudybot: http://teensy.info/jyqBwp57Ph
2015-07-25T03:41:25Z teurastaja: (vector-swap! vec (rand m) m) ?
2015-07-25T03:42:01Z Riastradh: Yes.
2015-07-25T03:42:14Z teurastaja: thats it??
2015-07-25T03:42:35Z teurastaja: and it garantees its not at its original position??
2015-07-25T03:42:42Z teurastaja: huh?
2015-07-25T03:42:47Z teurastaja: no way
2015-07-25T03:42:56Z Riastradh: Yes.  You move the item at position m to some position < m, and never revisit position m.
2015-07-25T03:43:04Z Riastradh: Hmm.
2015-07-25T03:43:15Z teurastaja: wow
2015-07-25T03:43:22Z teurastaja: thats so hot
2015-07-25T03:43:43Z teurastaja: just changing n for m
2015-07-25T03:43:46Z teurastaja: ha!
2015-07-25T03:43:52Z teurastaja: thanks master
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2015-07-25T04:49:50Z teurastaja: is this better Riastradh?
2015-07-25T04:49:52Z teurastaja: (define (shuffle! vec)
2015-07-25T04:49:53Z teurastaja:   (do ([i (- (vector-length vec) 1) (- i 1)])
2015-07-25T04:49:55Z teurastaja:       ((< i 1)) (vector-swap! vec (rand i) i)))
2015-07-25T04:54:19Z teurastaja: from my first test it seems to do the job outstandingly
2015-07-25T04:54:47Z teurastaja: it even solves redundancy problems in srfi 1
2015-07-25T04:54:53Z teurastaja: oops srfi 27
2015-07-25T04:55:48Z teurastaja: this just changed the whole game, literally
2015-07-25T04:56:17Z teurastaja: thanks again
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2015-07-25T10:57:02Z lewis1711: do real life lisp interpreters actually handle "defines" and so in right there in the eval function, like it does in SICP?
2015-07-25T10:57:30Z lewis1711: I figured there would be three phases - parsing the s-expressions, going through and expanding the macro forms, *then* evaluating everything
2015-07-25T10:59:22Z wasamasa: I'd expect real-life implementations to be a load messier than examples given in SICP
2015-07-25T10:59:36Z lewis1711: yeah yeah of course
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2015-07-25T10:59:53Z lewis1711: but in the grander scheme of things, definitions can't happen right there while you're evaluating stuff right?
2015-07-25T11:02:27Z wasamasa: why not?
2015-07-25T11:03:16Z wasamasa: if you need to establish named bindings for other code to build upon them...
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2015-07-25T11:12:03Z lewis1711: oh
2015-07-25T11:12:27Z lewis1711: I guess "define" would desugar to some setting of an invisible global hashtable or something
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2015-07-25T12:15:58Z ski: wasamasa : elaborate ?
2015-07-25T12:16:39Z wasamasa: ski: (define (square n) (* n n)) (square 2)
2015-07-25T12:19:26Z ski: i was supposing lewis1711 was talking about putting a definition inside other forms (like `if',`cond',`let',`define',`lambda',...) and still have it be visible outside that lexical context
2015-07-25T12:20:15Z wasamasa: that doesn't sound like scheme's evaluation model
2015-07-25T12:20:45Z wasamasa: elisp handles `defun' that way unless `lexical-binding' is on
2015-07-25T12:22:12Z wasamasa: while in scheme it must be using lexical context
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2015-07-25T12:36:53Z turtleman_: does anyone remember the person asking about scheme build systems
2015-07-25T12:36:54Z turtleman_: ?
2015-07-25T12:37:14Z turtleman_: ive been thinking about it; do you only need a build system if you are using a compiler?
2015-07-25T12:37:19Z turtleman_: or is there a reason to use it with an interpreter
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2015-07-25T13:06:10Z wasamasa: do interpreters not need to load dependencies?
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2015-07-25T13:15:47Z kraehe: turtleman_, what do you mean with a build system? somethlng like 'make for scheme'? an asdf, clc, ...?
2015-07-25T13:15:57Z turtleman_: yes
2015-07-25T13:16:01Z turtleman_: some was talking about raco
2015-07-25T13:16:07Z turtleman_: and is there something similar with other implementations
2015-07-25T13:16:17Z turtleman_: i didnt know how to answer because i never needed such a thing
2015-07-25T13:18:06Z kraehe: at first Scheme is an idea, not a fixed language
2015-07-25T13:18:52Z kraehe: implementations implement a wide range of: pick those standard you like + extensions you seen at other Schemes
2015-07-25T13:19:36Z kraehe: so, any Scheme build system and package management must include
2015-07-25T13:19:47Z kraehe: http://people.csail.mit.edu/jaffer/SLIB.html <- to leverage differences
2015-07-25T13:20:48Z kraehe: now, if you look at slib it implements a require vs provide pattern - thats basically a build system
2015-07-25T13:21:13Z kraehe: once you ported slib, you can build Scheme applications by using this pattern
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2015-07-25T13:24:42Z turtleman_: kraehe: whats the difference between require/provide and import/export
2015-07-25T13:24:46Z turtleman_: or are they the same
2015-07-25T13:25:48Z turtleman_: or define-library, i guess
2015-07-25T13:28:00Z kraehe: e.g. in most Schemes a (require 'delay) would do nothing, as delay is already provided by the $IMPLEMENTATION.init file
2015-07-25T13:28:41Z kraehe: in some Schemes, delay might be be loaded
2015-07-25T13:29:08Z kraehe: also you can check (provided? 'delay)
2015-07-25T13:29:13Z kraehe: if a feature is available
2015-07-25T13:29:16Z turtleman_: hmm i se
2015-07-25T13:29:17Z turtleman_: see*
2015-07-25T13:30:01Z kraehe: so require talks about features, that needs to be patched into an implementation to run your software
2015-07-25T13:30:26Z kraehe: its a slightly different semantic
2015-07-25T13:30:53Z turtleman_: so, all build systems do is see if you have the required stuff?
2015-07-25T13:31:32Z kraehe: or to run an slib replacement
2015-07-25T13:31:55Z kraehe:   (define delay (macro (exp)
2015-07-25T13:31:56Z kraehe:     `(,make-promise (lambda () ,exp))))
2015-07-25T13:31:56Z kraehe:   (define force (lambda (promise) (promise)))
2015-07-25T13:32:13Z kraehe: thats all you need to load for a (require 'delay)
2015-07-25T13:32:32Z kraehe: if your Scheme decided that delay not part of core
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2015-07-25T13:33:42Z turtleman_: i might still be a bit confused
2015-07-25T13:33:46Z kraehe: *oups* sorry - for not using hygenic macros
2015-07-25T13:33:47Z turtleman_: what if you are only targeting one implementation?
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2015-07-25T13:34:45Z kraehe: you mean: my own Scheme?
2015-07-25T13:34:53Z turtleman_: yes
2015-07-25T13:35:01Z turtleman_: like if im making a program for Gauche
2015-07-25T13:35:12Z turtleman_: if im making a GUI app, theres not much point in cross-implementation compatibility
2015-07-25T13:35:16Z kraehe: are you the author of Gauche?
2015-07-25T13:35:21Z turtleman_: no im not
2015-07-25T13:35:24Z turtleman_: not *my* scheme
2015-07-25T13:35:25Z turtleman_: the one i use
2015-07-25T13:37:43Z kraehe: Gauche is supported by slib - so I would just try that
2015-07-25T13:38:03Z turtleman_: slib, for a GUI app?
2015-07-25T13:38:39Z kraehe: during development
2015-07-25T13:38:51Z kraehe: you later ship only the files of slib you really need
2015-07-25T13:39:03Z turtleman_: i see
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2015-07-25T13:40:17Z kraehe: this only covers the Scheme side build
2015-07-25T13:40:35Z kraehe: a GUI app might need C bindings
2015-07-25T13:40:43Z kraehe: I would do those with make
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2015-07-25T13:41:51Z kraehe: if you have something to configure: create a shell script to be exexcuted as ./configure && make && sudo make install  ... but ignore the GNU path of autoconf ;-)
2015-07-25T13:43:00Z kraehe: turtleman_, we could talk tomorrow about that topic again - ping me (kraehe or kephra) here or in #o3db
2015-07-25T13:43:16Z kraehe: i'm out for bbq now
2015-07-25T13:46:55Z turtleman_: ok
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2015-07-25T22:16:11Z lewis1711: is there something that covers how scheme is interpreted compiled? like there must be some phrase before after parsing, and before evaluating, where all the macros are run
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2015-07-25T22:23:42Z wasamasa: scheme is an idea, not an implementation
2015-07-25T22:24:05Z wasamasa: that being said, https://media.ccc.de/browse/conferences/froscon/2013/c116_lisp_-_2013-08-24_16:30_-_scheme_implementation_techniques_-_felix_-_1258.html#video
2015-07-25T22:24:06Z rudybot: http://teensy.info/YBBaDIjMsn
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2015-07-25T22:24:15Z wasamasa: slides are on http://www.call-with-current-continuation.org/scheme-implementation-techniques.pdf
2015-07-25T22:24:16Z rudybot: http://teensy.info/28FdOp1Oza
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2015-07-25T22:29:21Z wasamasa: this mentions a few interesting books, including Lisp in small Pieces
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2015-07-25T22:34:19Z lewis1711: wasamasa, yeah I know it's a standard and there's lots of implementations. I've downloaded far too many of them. but these fundamentals must be in common
2015-07-25T22:34:26Z lewis1711: I'll check the link out
2015-07-25T22:34:51Z wasamasa: I'm the slouching guy in the video
2015-07-25T22:36:24Z lewis1711: you'll have to be more specific :D
2015-07-25T22:36:44Z lewis1711: hey it's the chicken scheme guyt
2015-07-25T22:36:49Z wasamasa: yup
2015-07-25T22:36:59Z wasamasa: well, fine, I'm the guy in the green shirt
2015-07-25T22:37:06Z wasamasa: happy?
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2015-07-25T22:38:38Z lewis1711: you're famous ;) where was the video?
2015-07-25T22:38:45Z wasamasa: at froscon
2015-07-25T22:39:03Z wasamasa: it's soon having its 10th birthday
2015-07-25T22:39:09Z wasamasa: and I'll hold a non-scheme talk :P
2015-07-25T22:40:52Z lewis1711: Germany? hm
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2015-07-25T22:51:22Z xfz: isfroscon the one in Bonn?
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2015-07-25T23:08:11Z kraehe: xfz, yeah - Bonn Rein Sieg - likely in the former GMD villa
2015-07-25T23:08:45Z kraehe: wasamasa, is froscon im Schloss or in the university?
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2015-07-26T00:15:46Z lewis1711: wasamasa, the talk was interesting but long and I zoned out a lot while hacking. I basically just wanted to know what the step between parsing and evaluating was called, where all the macros are run, so I could google it and steal ideas
2015-07-26T00:17:42Z kraehe: lewis1711, macro expansion
2015-07-26T00:18:35Z lewis1711: oh yeah
2015-07-26T00:18:51Z lewis1711: "define" is a macro, right?
2015-07-26T00:18:53Z lewis1711: must be...
2015-07-26T00:19:16Z kraehe: its a special form
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2015-07-26T00:23:10Z lewis1711: huh
2015-07-26T00:23:22Z lewis1711: so there are macros, procedures and special forms
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2015-07-26T00:31:55Z kraehe: e.g. quote, quasiquote, lambda, if, and, or, set!, let, let*, letrec, begin, define are special forms, because they are called before their arguments are evalutated
2015-07-26T00:38:57Z lewis1711: but isn't that what macros are?
2015-07-26T00:40:51Z kraehe: when talking about macros, we have up to 3 kinds
2015-07-26T00:41:22Z kraehe: hygenic macros (Scheme default), procedural macros, and perhaps even reader macros
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2015-07-26T00:46:48Z lewis1711: yeah but aren't special forms a kind of macro?
2015-07-26T00:46:59Z kraehe: lewis1711, e.g. you could implement AND and OR of the above list as macro using IF, also let* and letrec could be implemented as macros
2015-07-26T00:47:15Z kraehe: but there will always be some primitive special forms
2015-07-26T00:47:33Z kraehe: e.g. you could implement * on +
2015-07-26T00:48:07Z kraehe: but + should be a primitive (or do you want to implement peano axioms by cons/car/cdr ;-)
2015-07-26T00:48:41Z kraehe: so you need to implement to primitive special forms, before you can even think about implementing macros
2015-07-26T00:49:24Z kraehe: so wrap it the other way round, lewis1711 - a macro is a kind of special form
2015-07-26T00:49:57Z lewis1711: hmmm
2015-07-26T00:50:12Z lewis1711: so these primitive special forms can be evaluated at run time
2015-07-26T00:50:33Z kraehe: really depends on implementation
2015-07-26T00:51:05Z kraehe: http://o3db.com/proto/Implementation.html <- e.g. this is my toy Scheme *shameless plug*
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2015-07-26T01:12:37Z pjb`: lewis1711: in Common Lisp it is explicitely specified that implementation can implement special forms as macros (and macros as special forms as long as a macro function is still provided for the code walker) (and the CL functions can also be open-coded, ie. compiled as special form).
2015-07-26T01:12:56Z pjb`: lewis1711: however, there's no such verbiage in the r5rs standard.
2015-07-26T01:15:12Z pjb`: Also, they're not named special form in r5rs, but "syntax" or "library syntax".
2015-07-26T01:16:34Z pjb`: begin, if, quote, etc are syntactic keywords.
2015-07-26T01:16:49Z pjb`: "special operator" is Common Lisp terminology.
2015-07-26T01:17:05Z pjb`: The r5rs is ONLY 50 pages: http://www.schemers.org/Documents/Standards/R5RS/HTML/
2015-07-26T01:21:32Z lewis1711: 50 pages, hmm. I can probably decipher that
2015-07-26T01:24:35Z lewis1711: thanks for the overview pjb`.
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2015-07-26T02:07:05Z turbofail: huh.  there's some weird phasing shit going on in the pure scheme version of "the little prover"
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2015-07-26T02:10:31Z turbofail: we have (define (if/nil Q A E) (if (equal? Q 'nil) (E) (A))), and then later (define-syntax if ...) which expands to a call to if/nil
2015-07-26T02:11:25Z turbofail: but in both racket and guile, this is resulting in a tail-recursive looping call to if/nil when using (load ...)'s semantics, whatever those are
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2015-07-26T02:32:03Z undoall: Is it normal for scheme code to use tons of mutable global variables?
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2015-07-26T02:36:44Z turbofail: not really
2015-07-26T02:37:26Z undoall: Really?
2015-07-26T02:37:44Z undoall: Because I'm looking over the chicken source code right now, and there are a LOT of them.
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2015-07-26T02:44:56Z turbofail: i mean, it depends a lot on what you're doing
2015-07-26T02:47:08Z turbofail: regardless, though, it's still not what i would call good scheme practice
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2015-07-26T02:52:54Z undoall: What's the preferred alternative then?
2015-07-26T02:54:23Z lewis1711: Well you can use global mutable variables if you want. There's no official scheme coding guideline that chicken scheme is following, that I am aware of
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2015-07-26T03:02:17Z johnyc-: undoall: do you have any specific examples where you want to use a mutable global variable or are you just asking in general?
2015-07-26T03:03:15Z undoall: A bit of both.
2015-07-26T03:03:39Z undoall: I have a little project I'm working, a simple stack based programming language that compiles down to brainfuck.
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2015-07-26T03:04:43Z undoall: The stack pointer and the cell pointer (obviously) have to be stored and mutated throughout the compiling process.
2015-07-26T03:05:12Z undoall: Thus far, I've just stored the stack pointer and cell pointer as global variables, and set! them inside of functions.
2015-07-26T03:06:49Z undoall: I assume the preferred alternative would be to pass the stack pointer and cell pointer as arguments to functions, and return them modified?
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2015-07-26T03:07:57Z lewis1711: why on earth would you compile a stack language to brainfuck
2015-07-26T03:08:15Z undoall: Entertainment!
2015-07-26T03:08:55Z undoall: Just a fun little project.
2015-07-26T03:09:01Z lewis1711: have some confidence. write a real stack language (:
2015-07-26T03:10:08Z lewis1711: AFAIK it's ok to have no idea what you're doing when making a language. I mean guido didn't, and python did pretty well
2015-07-26T03:10:53Z undoall: I would, but the eventual goal is to write a compiler that compiles scheme to this stack based language.
2015-07-26T03:10:59Z undoall: Therefore creating a scheme -> brainfuck compiler.
2015-07-26T03:11:29Z lewis1711: why on earh would you not just make a great scheme to stack lanaguage compiler!?
2015-07-26T03:11:36Z lewis1711: I really hate brainfuck. it's so pointless.
2015-07-26T03:11:44Z undoall: That's the point of brainfuck!
2015-07-26T03:11:56Z lewis1711: but people waste their effort with it instead of.. oh nevermind
2015-07-26T03:12:13Z undoall: It'd be really cool to compile a high level language down to something so primative.
2015-07-26T03:13:11Z lewis1711: like a stack language? or machine code? or C? :P
2015-07-26T03:13:15Z lewis1711: or binary?
2015-07-26T03:13:31Z undoall: Pfft, those are all far more convenient.
2015-07-26T03:14:14Z lewis1711: ah I am just ranting. I just don't get it. I think more people should do this stuff "seriously".  I have no idea who you are or how good a programmer you are, but I am sure you can do better than say PHP
2015-07-26T03:15:13Z undoall: Ah, what's the harm in an entertaining project with no practical uses?
2015-07-26T03:16:17Z lewis1711: sure, treat it that way. scrap the brainfuck bit, and make the whole thing shorter, and learn some cool shit about stack machines
2015-07-26T03:16:29Z undoall: Besides, it certainly teaches aspects of compiler design, so it's not a total waste.
2015-07-26T03:16:54Z undoall: And should I ever get it to work, I can then see if I can get the stack based language to compile to something more practical.
2015-07-26T03:17:44Z lewis1711: hmm, ok fair point
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2015-07-26T04:34:00Z ski: wasamasa : yes, i know. i was just thinking it sounded like lewis1711 was talking about such
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2015-07-26T04:53:52Z lewis1711: looks like I missed some backlog due to my third world internet
2015-07-26T04:55:53Z ski: <http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/scheme> ?
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2015-07-26T04:57:23Z lewis1711: oh no I didn't miss anything
2015-07-26T04:58:39Z lewis1711: undoall, anway, regarding your stack pointer needing to be mutated... you could just have a recursive function that transforms stack -> stack. I mean if you really wanted, but you're probably better of using stateful programming
2015-07-26T05:00:32Z undoall: Ah, I thought so, because my code was turning out really clean when using global mutables. Thanks!
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2015-07-26T08:32:57Z wasamasa: lewis1711: just like me
2015-07-26T08:33:08Z wasamasa: kraehe: it's in the university
2015-07-26T08:33:17Z lewis1711: wasamasa, what's just like you?
2015-07-26T08:34:11Z wasamasa: <lewis1711:#scheme> wasamasa, the talk was interesting but long and I zoned out a lot while hacking.
2015-07-26T08:34:27Z lewis1711: ah
2015-07-26T08:34:51Z wasamasa: but now that I revisit the slides, I can pretend I do at least understand half of it
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2015-07-26T13:48:45Z newbie___: > (define add(x y) (+ x y)) *** ERROR IN (console)@12.1 -- Ill-formed special form: define >
2015-07-26T13:49:01Z newbie___: can someone help me on this
2015-07-26T13:49:39Z fizzie: '(add x y)', not 'add(x y)', but understanding why would probably be useful.
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2015-07-26T13:50:55Z newbie___: oh
2015-07-26T13:51:03Z newbie___: was going thru this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_cV8NWQCxnE
2015-07-26T13:53:32Z fizzie: Well, that seems to be either not Scheme, or some nonstandard dialect. At least the example I found at 13:33.
2015-07-26T13:53:57Z fizzie: The standard define forms are (define x <something>) or, as a shortcut, (define (x y z) <something>) which stands for (define x (lambda (y z) <something>)).
2015-07-26T13:54:53Z fizzie: For the record, 13:33 is (define celsius->fahrenheit (temp) (+ 32 (* 1.8 temp))). Which looks more like a Lisp defun than a Scheme define.
2015-07-26T13:55:59Z pjb: well university professors often use their own variant of lisp they implemented from the memories they had of LISP 1.5 they were taught in the 60s…
2015-07-26T13:56:17Z pjb: It could happen that their lisp be close to some version of scheme, or not at all :-/
2015-07-26T13:56:23Z fizzie: Yes. A number of the video comments complain and/or correct the examples.
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2015-07-26T13:56:49Z pjb: There's really a deficiency in the teaching of lisp in general, which is why, IMO, lisp is not more used in the industry.
2015-07-26T13:57:04Z pjb: A lot of people have been taught lisp, but won't use because it was a traumatic experience for them.
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2015-07-26T13:57:56Z sub0: What is the useless skin around the vagina called?
2015-07-26T13:57:59Z sub0: WOMAN!
2015-07-26T13:58:30Z pjb: sub0: well, they make vaginas without the useless skin around, if you're into that.  Most men prefer it with the woman around.
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2015-07-26T14:02:24Z pjb: You can't deny there's some level of esthetic achievement in the plasticity of the woman body, independently of any sexual context.
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2015-07-26T14:09:07Z newbie___: hello again
2015-07-26T14:09:28Z newbie___: i want to do permutation and combination any clues is appreciated
2015-07-26T14:09:40Z newbie___: of list of numbers
2015-07-26T14:19:55Z newbie___: fizzie any idea on this
2015-07-26T14:26:18Z kraehe: but that [scheme] is not Perl, where you one language monstrosity and you have implementation for it, and you use it, you put up your sleeves and you use it
2015-07-26T14:26:44Z kraehe: s/you one/you have one/
2015-07-26T14:27:01Z kraehe: nice cite at the end from the felix talk, wasamasa
2015-07-26T14:33:07Z oleo_: newbie___: you want the reorderings
2015-07-26T14:33:22Z oleo_: newbie___: start with few numbers.....
2015-07-26T14:34:45Z fizzie: newbie___: That's more of an algorithm than a language question, really, and there's a channel for that. Anyway, a classic way is to assume you know how to do it for the list-except-the-first-element, and then think about how to get the full answer based on that. E.g. for (1 2 3), how you'd get all six permutations of it if you know how to get ((2 3) (3 2)) and 1.
2015-07-26T14:34:58Z oleo_: (a) -> (a) 1, (a b) -> (a b) (b a) 2, (a b c)-> (a b c) (a c b)........
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2015-07-27T08:29:28Z grizzlydeer: Every where I look, I see, "Python is the best first language."
2015-07-27T08:29:55Z grizzlydeer: Then, I see pretty competent programmers say stuff like, "SICP is the best way to learn programming."
2015-07-27T08:30:04Z grizzlydeer: So, which is best then?
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2015-07-27T08:39:01Z tennix: i think it depends on your intention. For computer science and related field, it's better to start from SICP, it will teach you more about programming itself
2015-07-27T08:40:07Z tennix: while if you just want to use language as tools to help you solve real problems, then start from python
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2015-07-27T08:41:23Z tennix: for general purpose, i would recommend python as one's first programming language. it's very easy and practical
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2015-07-27T08:46:27Z kraehe: greghendershott, from pragmatic point, I would say JS in browser is a good start
2015-07-27T08:47:07Z kraehe: even if JS is a horrible language - its the only one that offers instant coding like in good old BASIC console times
2015-07-27T08:48:16Z tennix: actually one can program with many programming language with just a browser not only js
2015-07-27T08:48:18Z kraehe: from standpoint of teaching, I would use Lua - as the manual fits on one website, and the language is small and expressive
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2015-07-27T08:49:05Z tennix: there are playground of many languages online
2015-07-27T08:49:40Z tennix: python, ruby, golang, rust, c...
2015-07-27T08:49:56Z kraehe: tennix, sure - you can write Scheme in browser - e.g. here http://kephra.de/o3proto/dpaste.html
2015-07-27T08:50:52Z tennix: yes. implement such playground is not that hard
2015-07-27T08:51:34Z kraehe: implementing Scheme is not that hard - took me about half a year for a complete R4RS including full call-cc
2015-07-27T08:52:22Z kraehe: and some extensions like dynamic-wind, exceptions, regexp, mit like the-environment, ...
2015-07-27T08:53:37Z kraehe: well - JS is an ugly language - and JS+DOM+HTML+CSS likely a hard start ;-(
2015-07-27T08:53:39Z wasamasa: I like how you guys went on after the questioner quit
2015-07-27T08:53:53Z kraehe: *oups* true, wasamasa ;-)
2015-07-27T08:55:08Z kraehe: and even worse - I did not notice pinging the wrong user *blush*
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2015-07-27T09:13:10Z tennix: kraehe: oh, i did not notice that you implement it in js. In fact a lot of online language playground is implemented as a service in a server sandbox environment
2015-07-27T09:14:02Z tennix: that way it's much easier
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2015-07-27T09:20:16Z kraehe: tennix, did you look at the "html" source of  http://kephra.de/o3proto/dpaste.html ?
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2015-07-27T09:36:19Z tennix: sorry, i just noticed when executing code, there's no request to server so i guess it's implemented in js. And yes there're lots of scheme code
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2015-07-27T20:40:46Z teurastaja: hints for brute force pruning of sudoku clues where the number of solutions is 1? my algorithm takes at least 30 minutes just to prune one clue....
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2015-07-27T20:55:49Z pjb: teurastaja: don't prune. Brute force it with backtracking and it'll be instantaneous.
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2015-07-27T21:00:53Z teurastaja: pjb: my sudokus are already optimal unless i alter some clues
2015-07-27T21:01:11Z teurastaja: i want to go from extreme sudokus to impossible ones this way
2015-07-27T21:02:27Z teurastaja: so from an existing sudoku, how do you prune it further? i thought what i was doing was already brute force
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2015-07-27T21:06:10Z ski: teurastaja : alternatively (or both ?), build a constraint system (if you aren't already using one)
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2015-07-27T21:07:29Z pjb: teurastaja: A simple exhaustive search with backtracking gives solution instantaneously.
2015-07-27T21:07:35Z pjb: On current hardware.
2015-07-27T21:08:39Z pjb: So you could add heursitics to backtrack earlier, or to choose more promising branches first, but I don't see how you could be stuck half an hour in it, if you don't have a bug.
2015-07-27T21:09:39Z teurastaja: pjb: wanna test my code to see what i mean? you can see what it does
2015-07-27T21:10:01Z pjb: You may lisppaste it.
2015-07-27T21:10:20Z teurastaja: just run it with "gosh -r7 blabla.scm"
2015-07-27T21:10:41Z ski: keep track of which digits can and can't possibly be used at each cell
2015-07-27T21:10:49Z ski: if there's only one cell on a row/column/block that can possibly contain a given digit, then it must contain that digit. if there's two cells that are the only ones (on the row/column/block) to possibly contain two (distinct) digits, then those two digits are the only possibilities for those two cells, and the other cells then can't possibly contain those digits. generalize in the obvious way
2015-07-27T21:11:37Z teurastaja: ski: the sudoku is generated from the solution. there cant be number conflicts
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2015-07-27T21:12:17Z ski: if there's one digit that can only occur in one cell on a given row/column/block, then it must occur that. generalize similar to above for more digits
2015-07-27T21:12:43Z ski: s/occur that/occur there/
2015-07-27T21:13:00Z teurastaja: http://pastebin.com/B3PCvyKt
2015-07-27T21:13:32Z ski: first resolve constraints. only after that consider the remaining choices (backtracking or whatever)
2015-07-27T21:14:23Z teurastaja: ski: take a look at the code, especially the end
2015-07-27T21:14:44Z teurastaja: you may even test it
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2015-07-27T21:15:10Z ski: unfortunately, i have to run now, i just wanted to explain the idea of the constraints above. i may take a look at your code later, if i recall
2015-07-27T21:15:37Z teurastaja: when it says "optimizing", keep waiting. when it says "cracking" itll take more than 30 minutes
2015-07-27T21:15:53Z teurastaja: thanks
2015-07-27T21:16:55Z pjb: Well, I don't see you using 2D arrays or vectors.
2015-07-27T21:18:23Z pjb: There's all this stuff with concatenate, append, cons.  You seem to be consing a lot.
2015-07-27T21:19:14Z teurastaja: pjb: youre talking about the code thats not inside a module?
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2015-07-27T21:20:45Z pjb: You don't seem to be doing any backtracking, you generate and then filter out.
2015-07-27T21:20:51Z teurastaja: its the code near the end thats problematic
2015-07-27T21:20:57Z teurastaja: yes
2015-07-27T21:22:05Z teurastaja: how would you rewrite crack-sudokus and generate-tests?
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2015-07-27T21:31:53Z teurastaja: reading my 400+ liner generator?
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2015-07-27T21:32:27Z teurastaja: really the rest is working well
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2015-07-27T21:36:42Z teurastaja: the solver uses dancing links, the completed board generator uses a math trick using latin squares, the pruning is asymmetrical but what really bothers me is the optimization phase
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2015-07-27T21:41:10Z teurastaja: :/ no way to know if hes reading or gone
2015-07-27T21:43:36Z pjb: Well, here is how I did it: http://www.informatimago.com/develop/lisp/com/informatimago/small-cl-pgms/sudoku-solver/index.html
2015-07-27T21:43:36Z rudybot: http://teensy.info/cqTtrC6vGj
2015-07-27T21:44:00Z pjb: and perhaps this one is better structured: http://norvig.com/sudoku.html
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2015-07-27T21:50:11Z pjb: for example, to solve 12 of the hardest sudoku takes less than 2 seconds.
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2015-07-27T22:33:19Z teurastaja: mine is about the same perhaps faster
2015-07-27T22:33:40Z teurastaja: i made another version with the solver only
2015-07-27T22:34:14Z teurastaja: thanks
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2015-07-27T22:35:14Z pjb: Good.
2015-07-27T22:39:06Z teurastaja: mine solves around 5000-6000 sudokus in a second on my old laptop
2015-07-27T22:39:21Z teurastaja: is that possible?
2015-07-27T22:43:54Z teurastaja: well im sure of my claim
2015-07-27T22:44:12Z teurastaja: just run my program and read the output
2015-07-27T22:47:26Z teurastaja: between each clue added theres the lowest number of solutions found and it tries them all for 1 grid
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2015-07-27T22:58:51Z teurastaja: here are the relevant functions
2015-07-27T22:58:53Z teurastaja: http://pastebin.com/NGy7Zcpv
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2015-07-27T23:01:22Z teurastaja: way too slow. id rather use a better algorithm... its about 30 lines
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2015-07-27T23:12:15Z teurastaja: pjb: tu parles français de France ou français Québécois?
2015-07-27T23:14:39Z teurastaja: À lire ton code on dirait que t'es Français ;)
2015-07-27T23:17:25Z teurastaja: Allô cousin
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2015-07-27T23:44:00Z kraehe: ANNOUNCE:  25. - 27. September - Scheme meeting in Göttingen/Germany
2015-07-27T23:44:16Z kraehe: wasamasa, ^^^ are you there?
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2015-07-28T00:04:07Z sixpindin: hello, does anybody have a moment to link me something that will help me understand how to arrive at the answers in this: http://pastebin.com/296RD8fr
2015-07-28T00:04:48Z sixpindin: I understand how to evaluate the proceedures, but I don't understand how they relate to the notation given in the answers, I just need a link in the right direction
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2015-07-28T00:11:06Z grizzlydeer: Can someone here tell me what this book SICP will teach me exactly?
2015-07-28T00:12:41Z teurastaja quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2015-07-28T00:12:42Z sixpindin: I'm working on it now. It is for programming, what yoga is to exercise
2015-07-28T00:13:32Z grizzlydeer: I'm not a yogi, so I don't quite get the analogy. Does it limber you up and make programming easier, if you are a beginner in particular?
2015-07-28T00:13:37Z davexunit: grizzlydeer: higher-order functions, recursion, time and space complexity, interpreters, lazy evaluation, memoization, register machines, and more.
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2015-07-28T00:16:35Z sixpindin: it's taught me simple things that I never thought about before, like the difference between itteration and recursion and the implications of each
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2015-07-28T00:19:18Z sixpindin: also checkout the lectures on youtube, as they really help with the book
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2015-07-28T00:33:42Z grizzlydeer: sixpindin: Aru you new to programming too? Would you recommend Sicp to a newcomer?
2015-07-28T00:33:57Z grizzlydeer: *are
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2015-07-28T00:34:29Z davexunit: grizzlydeer: how is your math skill?  SICP was written for MIT undergrads and assumes calculus knowledge.
2015-07-28T00:34:50Z davexunit: if you're looking for something gentler, I highly recommend "The Little Schemer" from MIT Press.
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2015-07-28T00:35:33Z grizzlydeer: davexunit: I passed Algebra I.
2015-07-28T00:39:12Z grizzlydeer: davexunit: Is that enough to get through the book?
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2015-07-28T00:40:11Z davexunit: grizzlydeer: you'll probably have some trouble on the more math related problems, but not all of SICP is heavy math, so go for it.
2015-07-28T00:40:27Z davexunit: the book is available gratis online, so there's no money lost if it doesn't work out.
2015-07-28T00:44:01Z sixpindin: grizzlydeer: I'm an experienced programmer. I would probably not recommend SICP as a first programming book to MOST people, something like python might be better, but then people with a strong maths background might take to SICP.
2015-07-28T00:45:51Z sixpindin: The more you program, the more you come up against basic structures like lists, maps, etc, and basic operations like recursion - and that's where SICP starts.
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2015-07-28T00:46:45Z zacts: hello schemers
2015-07-28T00:46:48Z zacts: hey davexunit
2015-07-28T00:47:02Z davexunit: hey zacts
2015-07-28T00:47:05Z zacts: davexunit: have you gotten through The Little Prover at all? I had problems with J-Bob + guile.
2015-07-28T00:47:13Z zacts: but maybe racket will work
2015-07-28T00:47:23Z davexunit: zacts: I haven't picked it up yet.
2015-07-28T00:47:26Z zacts: ah ok
2015-07-28T00:47:27Z davexunit: so much other stuff going on.
2015-07-28T00:47:34Z zacts: I know what that's like :-D
2015-07-28T00:47:34Z davexunit: I *will* get it at some point
2015-07-28T00:47:44Z davexunit: I'm too busy hacking on Guix to read books :)
2015-07-28T00:47:48Z zacts: I've been kinda busy myself lately (no irc for about 5 days now)
2015-07-28T00:48:31Z zacts: but yeah the little prover is kind of like a good book to have just even for nerd nostalgia
2015-07-28T00:48:50Z zacts: but so far it's an entertaining et fun read
2015-07-28T00:49:07Z davexunit: I still need to work through the reasoned schemer
2015-07-28T00:49:14Z zacts: ah yeah
2015-07-28T00:49:17Z davexunit: lots to do
2015-07-28T00:49:30Z zacts: davexunit: you are just a slacker, it's okay.
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2015-07-28T00:49:36Z davexunit: I wish someone would pay me full time to be a schemer
2015-07-28T00:49:38Z zacts: we are all slackers inside
2015-07-28T00:49:43Z zacts: indeed
2015-07-28T00:50:07Z zacts: the perfect professions would be fulltime guix ous fulltime guile ous fulltime emacs ous fulltime scheme
2015-07-28T00:50:21Z davexunit: that's the dream ;)
2015-07-28T00:50:37Z davexunit: if guix takes off, I think I'm well positioned to benefit.
2015-07-28T00:50:43Z zacts: yeah
2015-07-28T00:51:02Z davexunit: currently hacking on our Ruby gem support
2015-07-28T00:51:14Z davexunit: to bridge the gap between work and play
2015-07-28T00:52:02Z zacts: oh nice
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2015-07-28T00:52:11Z zacts: oh I was considering helping with the perl part of guix
2015-07-28T00:52:12Z zacts: no time
2015-07-28T00:52:22Z zacts: but I can provide wisdom here
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2015-07-28T00:52:26Z davexunit: we have a good deal of perl packages now
2015-07-28T00:52:30Z davexunit: same with python
2015-07-28T00:52:31Z zacts: as I used to do pro work a bit with perl kinda
2015-07-28T00:52:36Z davexunit: ah
2015-07-28T00:52:37Z zacts: (but I'm way out of practice with perl)
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2015-07-28T00:52:52Z zacts: but I understand how distros + CPAN  work
2015-07-28T00:53:07Z davexunit: soon I should have the tooling built to allow for automated package generation for Ruby gems that are hosted on rubygems.org
2015-07-28T00:53:18Z zacts: davexunit: well with the perl packages, CPAN needs a full perl version of a distro conversion utility
2015-07-28T00:53:33Z davexunit: we have a cpan importer I'm pretty sure
2015-07-28T00:53:33Z zacts: but perhaps we shall transfer guix stuff to #guix? :-)
2015-07-28T00:53:38Z davexunit: yeah
2015-07-28T00:53:46Z davexunit: sorry for the noise #scheme
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2015-07-28T00:54:54Z grizzlydeer: davexunit, sixpindin: I'm checking out chapter 1 and already stuck on 1.4 and 1.5
2015-07-28T00:55:00Z grizzlydeer: davexunit, sixpindin: http://xuanji.appspot.com/isicp/1-1-elements.html#1-1-6-Conditional-Expressions-and-Predicates
2015-07-28T00:55:00Z rudybot: http://teensy.info/v5hT1DBade
2015-07-28T00:55:07Z davexunit: grizzlydeer: try the little schemer
2015-07-28T00:55:16Z davexunit: that's a much more accessible book
2015-07-28T00:55:29Z davexunit: I didn't realize that Scheme is your first programming language
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2015-07-28T01:14:03Z cartwright: grizzlydeer: htdp might be a good read to build a foundation.
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2015-07-28T03:43:30Z jenia: hello. cna someone please tell me, what does the '?c and '?v mean here?
2015-07-28T03:43:32Z jenia: (define (arbitrary-variable?    pattern)
2015-07-28T03:43:32Z jenia:   (if (pair? pattern) (eq? (car pattern) '?v) false))
2015-07-28T03:43:56Z jenia: it's not defined anywhere else in the program. here is the link: http://rajiv.sg/blog/2012/07/01/sicp-pattern-matching-and-rule-based-substitution-lecture-with-mit-scheme/
2015-07-28T03:43:57Z rudybot: http://teensy.info/dNqu3695Lo
2015-07-28T03:45:44Z grizzlydeer: Someone in another channel just told me that SICP is too advanced for a typical programmer, despite being aimed at beginners. \:
2015-07-28T03:50:56Z tennix: jenia: it's just a pattern
2015-07-28T03:51:28Z jenia: it's a regex or is it trying to match something syntactically in the tree?
2015-07-28T03:51:34Z tennix: see algebra-rules definition at the bottom
2015-07-28T03:53:14Z jenia: haha. okay, I got it. thanks very much!!
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2015-07-28T05:59:45Z wasamasa: kraehe: nope
2015-07-28T05:59:52Z wasamasa: kraehe: oh, yes
2015-07-28T05:59:57Z wasamasa: kraehe: I plan to go to that meetup
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2015-07-28T07:05:44Z dpk: !tell
2015-07-28T07:06:03Z dpk: !tell jcowan http://recycledknowledge.blogspot.co.uk/2011/05/final-complete-authoritative-list-of.html is missing loan-translation, a loan-translation of Lehnübersetzung
2015-07-28T07:06:03Z rudybot: http://teensy.info/oM0HzZILG9
2015-07-28T07:07:05Z dpk: rudybot: tell jcowan http://recycledknowledge.blogspot.co.uk/2011/05/final-complete-authoritative-list-of.html is missing loan-translation, a loan-translation of Lehnübersetzung
2015-07-28T07:07:06Z rudybot: http://teensy.info/oM0HzZILG9
2015-07-28T07:07:06Z rudybot: dpk: !tell jcowan http://recycledknowledge.blogspot.co.uk/2011/05/final-complete-authoritative-list-of.html is missing loan-translation, a loan-translation of Lehnübersetzung
2015-07-28T07:07:16Z dpk: rudybot: !tell jcowan http://recycledknowledge.blogspot.co.uk/2011/05/final-complete-authoritative-list-of.html is missing loan-translation, a loan-translation of Lehnübersetzung
2015-07-28T07:07:16Z rudybot: http://teensy.info/oM0HzZILG9
2015-07-28T07:07:16Z rudybot: dpk: !tell jcowan http://recycledknowledge.blogspot.co.uk/2011/05/final-complete-authoritative-list-of.html is missing loan-translation, a loan-translation of Lehnübersetzung
2015-07-28T07:08:03Z dpk: rudybot: help
2015-07-28T07:08:03Z rudybot: dpk: bug <more> ..., fom <more> ..., hopeless <more> ..., falsy <more> ..., bad-eval <more> ..., later "tell" <recipient> <message> ..., help [<what>], version, quote, source, url, seen <nick> <more> ..., where's <nick> <more> ..., uptime, t8 <from> <to> <text> ..., snotback, botsnack, init [<lang>], eval <expr> ..., give <to> <expr> ..., apropos <str> ..., desc <id>, doc <id>
2015-07-28T07:08:23Z dpk: tell jcowan http://recycledknowledge.blogspot.co.uk/2011/05/final-complete-authoritative-list-of.html is missing loan-translation, a loan-translation of Lehnübersetzung
2015-07-28T07:08:24Z rudybot: http://teensy.info/oM0HzZILG9
2015-07-28T07:08:35Z dpk: rudybot: later tell jcowan http://recycledknowledge.blogspot.co.uk/2011/05/final-complete-authoritative-list-of.html is missing loan-translation, a loan-translation of Lehnübersetzung
2015-07-28T07:08:35Z rudybot: http://teensy.info/oM0HzZILG9
2015-07-28T07:08:35Z rudybot: dpk: I asked `MemoServ' to forward the message to jcowan.
2015-07-28T07:08:43Z dpk: great, thanks
2015-07-28T07:09:03Z dpk: that was hard enough, and i expected something more than a mere skin on MemoServ, but okay
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2015-07-28T10:07:31Z cheesepuffer: Do I need to know binary to get through SICP or learn Lisp later on?
2015-07-28T10:07:37Z cheesepuffer: Because I just can't grasp the concept of binary at all.
2015-07-28T10:07:51Z cheesepuffer: It's not essential to being a great programmer or anything, right?
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2015-07-28T10:47:14Z tennix: yes, binary is not necessary to learn SICP, but to be a greater programmer, understanding binary concept is a must
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2015-07-28T11:11:50Z kolba: Hi, I'm reading SICP and I'm currently in 2.1.4, where the authors give an example about intervals. In mul-interval, why are there 4 cases? You can just take the minimum to be min_x*min_y and the maximum to be max_x*max_y
2015-07-28T11:19:47Z ecraven: kolba: where does it say there are 4 cases?
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2015-07-28T11:20:05Z kolba: by cases I mean that it evaluates min and max for 4 arguments
2015-07-28T11:21:02Z kolba: min*min, min*max, max*min, max*max
2015-07-28T11:21:04Z ecraven: kolba: if any of the bounds are negative, your idea won't work
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2015-07-28T11:22:16Z kolba: hmm, yeah
2015-07-28T11:22:16Z kolba: thankd
2015-07-28T11:22:19Z kolba: thanks*
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2015-07-28T15:52:14Z undeis: Hello everybody, I wondered if it is possible to export all functions defined in the interpreter into a script or something
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2015-07-28T16:15:26Z wasamasa: I doubt there is a general way
2015-07-28T16:15:43Z wasamasa: given how little the spec says on introspection
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2015-07-28T16:27:55Z jcowan: wasamasa: A general way to do what?
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2015-07-28T16:29:05Z gnomon: jcowan, from earlier - just prior to you joining the channel: 11:52:14 <undeis> Hello everybody, I wondered if it is possible to export all functions defined in the interpreter into a script or something
2015-07-28T16:29:16Z gnomon: (my local time is 12:29:16 now)
2015-07-28T16:30:09Z jcowan: You're running on UTC-0356 time zone, or you mean *really* local time as indicated by a gnomon?
2015-07-28T16:30:29Z wasamasa: let's chat about time zones
2015-07-28T16:31:24Z gnomon: o god let's not
2015-07-28T16:31:52Z gnomon: jcowan, oh my, some clock drift must have, uh, drifted in.  How embarrassing.
2015-07-28T16:32:07Z Riastradh: 16:29 < gnomon> (my local time is 12:29:16 now)
2015-07-28T16:32:11Z Riastradh: 16:30 < jcowan> You're running on UTC-0356 time zone, or you mean *really*
2015-07-28T16:32:19Z Riastradh: I think jcowan's clock is the drifty one.
2015-07-28T16:32:30Z gnomon: offset -0.445699 sec - huh, not so bad after all.
2015-07-28T16:32:46Z gnomon: jcowan, J'ACCUSE
2015-07-28T16:32:54Z jcowan: Supposedly I'm synchronized with NIST.  Checking.
2015-07-28T16:32:56Z gnomon points dramatically at jcowan's timepiece
2015-07-28T16:32:57Z wasamasa: let's all agree upon that our own clock is fine and if anything, it's the other person's fault to have a drifty one
2015-07-28T16:33:16Z jcowan: Yeah, I'm getting errors.  JE M'ACCUSE
2015-07-28T16:33:26Z wasamasa: aww, you're no fun
2015-07-28T16:34:10Z Riastradh: jcowan: Must be because the world revolves around Manhattan, so relativistic effects desynchronized your clocks from ours.
2015-07-28T16:34:11Z jcowan: Okay, switched to a different NIST server
2015-07-28T16:34:39Z jcowan: I bought this box only yesterday, so haven't yet attended to certain config things.
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2015-07-28T16:35:21Z jcowan: I rejected with loathing the corporate Mac supplied to me, so my boss and I walked to the local Best Buy, bought a box, and I carried it back
2015-07-28T16:35:37Z gnomon: jcowan, oh hey, new rig!  Fun!  (Or was it by necessity?)
2015-07-28T16:36:04Z jcowan: New gig, yes.
2015-07-28T16:36:44Z jcowan: And no, not by necessity.  I even had my pick of two offers from different companies.  $$$/bennies were the same, so I got to pick on team members and quality of work.  Yay me.
2015-07-28T16:38:36Z gnomon: jcowan, that sounds _excellent_.  Congratulations!
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2015-07-28T16:39:27Z jcowan: Thanks
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2015-07-28T20:35:01Z turbofail: zacts: if you want to be able to use j-bob with guile, it'll actually work if you send the files into the interpreter via emacs
2015-07-28T20:36:01Z turbofail: zacts: the basic problem is that they define an `if' macro to call a function, but the if-function they use uses the macro defined in that file, thus resulting in an infinite loop
2015-07-28T20:36:42Z turbofail: zacts: because of the way "load" semantics work, the order of syntax definitions doesn't matter, unlike if you enter the forms in via the REPL
2015-07-28T20:37:03Z turbofail: the alternative is to hack the sources such that it uses modules properly
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2015-07-28T21:49:18Z turbofail: zacts: also, i have a forked version of j-bob that works with racket standalone, you could probably do something similar to make it work with guile
2015-07-28T21:49:27Z turbofail: zacts: see https://github.com/funkenblatt/j-bob
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2015-07-29T03:57:55Z Moosef: Hey I am trying to get scheme to work on emacs on a Windows machine. Any advice?
2015-07-29T04:04:40Z pjb: M-x run-scheme RET.
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2015-07-29T04:05:27Z pjb: You may have to configure scheme-program-name setting it to the path of your scheme.
2015-07-29T04:05:33Z Moosef: when I do that it says no such file or directory
2015-07-29T04:05:38Z Moosef: okay I will try that
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2015-07-29T04:11:10Z Moosef: I just tried it says trailing garbage after expression
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2015-07-29T04:18:38Z pjb: Perhaps a question of newlines? Some ^M when only ^J was expected?
2015-07-29T04:20:19Z pjb: Check default-process-coding-system
2015-07-29T04:21:05Z Moosef: actually I surrounded the expression in parens and that helped but there are still issues
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2015-07-29T04:42:27Z Moosef: pjb thanks for the help though
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2015-07-30T15:20:47Z Egemge: hi guys, i just began learning scheme.
2015-07-30T15:20:57Z Egemge: and i have a little question about the conditional statement
2015-07-30T15:21:00Z Egemge: could anyone help?
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2015-07-30T15:26:17Z taylanub: Egemge: just ask and if someone's around they'll reply :)
2015-07-30T15:26:36Z taylanub: Scheme doesn't really have "statements" by the way.  it mostly just has "definitions" and "expressions"
2015-07-30T15:26:49Z taylanub: e.g. (if x y z) is an expression
2015-07-30T15:27:38Z Egemge: ah, right, the s-expressions, i dont know the names yet
2015-07-30T15:27:39Z Egemge: http://paste.debian.net/287580/
2015-07-30T15:27:57Z Egemge: here is the code snippet, the point is to find the greater two of thre numbers and print the sum of squares
2015-07-30T15:28:12Z Egemge: i get the error "and: bad syntax in: and"
2015-07-30T15:29:01Z taylanub: well, s-expressions aren't the same thing as "expressions" in Scheme's grammar.  all Scheme code consists of s-expressions, but parts of them count as "definitions" and others count as "expressions" in Scheme's grammar  (one should remember that s-expressions are a stand-alone data format, and not necessarily program code)
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2015-07-30T15:29:57Z Egemge: oh. so (define a 3) for example is definition i guess, and not s-expression
2015-07-30T15:30:03Z taylanub: Egemge: your cond usage seems wrong.  you need to group together the test expressions and their bodies, like:  (cond  ((test) (do-something) (do-something2))  ((test2) ...)  ((test3) ...))
2015-07-30T15:30:13Z Egemge: that means that things become s-expressions after being "interpreted" ?
2015-07-30T15:30:29Z taylanub: Egemge: it is an s-expression, and if that s-expression is interpreted as Scheme source code, then within Scheme's grammar it's a "definition"
2015-07-30T15:31:02Z taylanub: s-expressions are the pure data.  "definitions" and "expressions" and such are terms in Scheme's grammar.
2015-07-30T15:32:08Z taylanub: http://taylanub.github.io/doc/lisp-rundown.txt  I author this document that kinda explains the logic.  I wrote it mostly for people who can already program (and know e.g. the JSON data format), dunno if it can help you.
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2015-07-30T15:32:45Z Egemge: im not too good but neither too shabby on that front, i have been doing python for a while
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2015-07-30T15:33:24Z Egemge: thanks for that link, looks especially helpful
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2015-07-31T01:38:42Z nanoz: in this which is cdr / car (cons #\a (cons 3 "hello"))
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2015-07-31T01:44:36Z lewis1711: ahh the one part of scheme that's horribly verbose - doing mutable array stuff (:
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2015-07-31T02:04:59Z nanoz: can someone say why we need cons ?
2015-07-31T02:05:41Z lewis1711: Sure. Read up about what a list is
2015-07-31T02:06:20Z nanoz: atom
2015-07-31T02:06:29Z nanoz: '()
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