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2015-06-01T08:32:06Z kephra is a bit confused what kind of error handling to implement: srfi 23, 34, 35, 36
2015-06-01T08:33:29Z kephra: at first I'm tempted to implement srfi 34 guard as a macro with call-ec and cond, but load could raise an error, e.g. while (load "o3lib.scm") - and this file is defining cond ...
2015-06-01T08:34:08Z m1dnight_: Is anyone using racket and emacs? Im trying to configure it to use racket but I cant succeed
2015-06-01T08:34:18Z m1dnight_: I got `run-scheme` working by putting (setq scheme-program-name "racket") in my config
2015-06-01T08:34:24Z m1dnight_: but C-x C-e doesnt work yet..
2015-06-01T08:34:43Z taylanub: m1dnight_: FWIW Geiser works with Racket.  maybe Geiser's documentation can help.
2015-06-01T08:35:17Z m1dnight_: aha
2015-06-01T08:35:34Z m1dnight_: that might be something im interested in (entourage, anyone?)
2015-06-01T08:35:36Z m1dnight_: thanks taylanub
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2015-06-01T08:46:46Z m1dnight_: sorry to bother you guys again, but I cant seem to get the geiser repl working. is racket enough to have installed on my system?
2015-06-01T08:47:04Z m1dnight_: I have googled and found logs for the #racket channle but nobody answered the man that asked the question
2015-06-01T08:47:21Z m1dnight_: https://botbot.me/freenode/racket/2014-04-21/?msg=13634017&page=2
2015-06-01T08:47:35Z m1dnight_: the url pointed to there is offline, so it seems..
2015-06-01T08:49:12Z taylanub: m1dnight_: how did you install geiser?  what does M-x run-racket RET do?
2015-06-01T08:49:39Z m1dnight_: i installed it from the package manager
2015-06-01T08:50:16Z m1dnight_: run-scheme brings up the racket repl (version 6.1)
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2015-06-01T08:51:26Z m1dnight_: oh oh i think I got it
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2015-06-01T08:51:58Z taylanub: once you have a Geiser Racket REPL running, C-x C-e should work in .scm files
2015-06-01T08:52:00Z m1dnight_: well, a clue. I found out I can click on the Scheme in my modeline and then I clicked "set scheme" and pointed it to racket
2015-06-01T08:52:58Z m1dnight_: now all I have to do is find out what the "set scheme" actually does, put it in my config and be done with it
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2015-06-01T08:56:04Z taylanub: you can (setq geiser-active-implementations '(racket)) to limit the choice (I do that with guile in my geiser configuration).  seems you can also set geiser-default-implementation, which is perhaps what the Customize system does.
2015-06-01T08:56:36Z taylanub: i.e. the "set scheme" you mention  (that's probably from Emacs's Customize system)
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2015-06-01T08:57:04Z m1dnight_: indeed, but im new to emacs and such. so I figure I probably need to do some (setq..) in my init.el
2015-06-01T08:58:58Z m1dnight_: taylanub: that did the trick indeed. Ill google some mor to find out how to set the dfault. thanks!
2015-06-01T09:04:50Z m1dnight_: hmm, geiser-default-implementation is not it :p
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2015-06-01T09:07:58Z m1dnight_: oh nvm, just put #lang r5rs and its fine.
2015-06-01T09:08:11Z m1dnight_: source for the future: http://www.nongnu.org/geiser/geiser_4.html
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2015-06-01T11:48:36Z taylanub: hmm, I find it very clear to use <foo> for pattern variables in syntax-rules/-case.  I wonder if this would in practice cause any confusion or conflicts with record-type names.
2015-06-01T11:49:05Z taylanub: Emacs even neatly colors <foo> distinct from other identifiers!
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2015-06-01T12:03:32Z ilammy: As for confusion, I believe <foo> meaning would be obvious from context.
2015-06-01T12:03:58Z ilammy: As for conflicts, I believe they would be resolved in a sane way by the hygienic expansion.
2015-06-01T12:04:59Z ilammy: As for coloring, I believe that *sematic highlighting* shoud be best suited for lisps (with their lack of syntax), but I never had a chance to really try it.
2015-06-01T12:08:22Z taylanub: semantics-aware syntax highlighting would sure be nice, but if even Emacs doesn't do it for Lisp (note even Elisp), there must be a good reason :P
2015-06-01T12:08:28Z taylanub: not even*
2015-06-01T12:10:09Z wasamasa: laziness
2015-06-01T12:10:41Z wasamasa: FWIW, I've spotted something similiar in the CL camp
2015-06-01T12:10:50Z wasamasa: where some individuals are using keywords in the LOOP macro
2015-06-01T12:10:58Z wasamasa: so that they get basic emacs highlighting for them
2015-06-01T12:11:25Z wasamasa: my pet peeve would rather be about getting specific completion when point is inside such a macro
2015-06-01T12:11:51Z wasamasa: and to distinguish function calls from macro calls or just quoted lists
2015-06-01T12:12:04Z wasamasa: so that it won't suggest me function symbols when not in a function call
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2015-06-01T12:17:41Z pjb: taylanub: <foo> leans dangerously toward hungarian notation and perlism.
2015-06-01T12:18:05Z ijp: scheme leans towards hungarian notation
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2015-06-01T12:19:38Z ijp: taylanub: I don't see how it would cause a conflict any more than using lambda as a name would
2015-06-01T12:19:58Z ijp: (which shouldn't)
2015-06-01T12:21:18Z taylanub: indeed, I sometimes even do things like (let ((car (car foo))) ...) when I know the body will be short and not call car any more...  record type names appear much much rarer in code.
2015-06-01T12:21:30Z wasamasa: .____.
2015-06-01T12:21:59Z wasamasa: I feel bad about (define (foo bar) (let ((bar ...))))
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2015-06-01T12:30:38Z pjb: wasamasa: don't.  Notably if (define (foo bar) (let ((bar (normalize bar))) …))
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2015-06-01T13:45:43Z foof: ilammy: yeah, the higher gc debug levels are super slow
2015-06-01T13:47:31Z foof: the shared libs also become invalidated, but it would be nice to configure the make rules to reuse the generated ffi files (although even that is not always valid)
2015-06-01T13:48:15Z foof: I suppose it would also be worthwhile speeding up chibi-ffi
2015-06-01T13:52:00Z foof: but honestly I don't expect anyone other than me to do gc debugging :)
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2015-06-01T18:42:33Z Tirifto: What are the major differences between "(define (procedure x) (+ x x))" and "(define procedure (lambda (x) (+ x x)))"
2015-06-01T18:42:50Z Riastradh: No semantic difference.
2015-06-01T18:43:02Z Riastradh: In some Scheme systems (e.g., MIT Scheme), the resulting procedure will be printed differently.
2015-06-01T18:43:14Z Tirifto: But the usage is the same, right?
2015-06-01T18:43:22Z Riastradh: Yes.
2015-06-01T18:43:53Z Tirifto: Is one preferred over the other? As in, is one more 'common' than the other, or does one have some benefits over the other?
2015-06-01T18:44:28Z Riastradh: The first is conciser, and will more likely be printed with the name for debugging purposes.
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2015-06-01T18:45:33Z Tirifto: So the first one is/should be preferred?
2015-06-01T18:46:17Z Riastradh: I prefer the first.
2015-06-01T18:46:30Z Riastradh: It's a matter of style.  Some people prefer the second.
2015-06-01T18:46:41Z Tirifto: All right, thank you! :)
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2015-06-01T18:53:55Z pjdelport: Fun fact, this works in some implementations too: (define ((procedure x) y) (+ x y))
2015-06-01T18:54:14Z pjdelport: (and so forth, with more curried nesting)
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2015-06-01T22:04:40Z fluvian: I've recently begun learning scheme, and it occurred to me that since the programmer is in a sense directly manipulating the AST, it should be possible to write a version control system which logs AST changes rather than changes to the lines of the text file.
2015-06-01T22:04:54Z fluvian: does anyone know of such an effort?
2015-06-01T22:06:04Z fluvian: there could be some interesting benefits to that approach, for example more fine-grained recompilation of sources
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2015-06-01T22:09:30Z m1dnight_: I just wrote a program in pure R5RS after a year or two. Now I realize what a luxury all those built-ins are :p
2015-06-01T22:10:09Z m1dnight_: fluvian: interesting point you made there.
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2015-06-01T22:10:29Z m1dnight_: But I'm not sure..
2015-06-01T22:11:08Z m1dnight_: But tracking AST changes for source code isnt really something new
2015-06-01T22:11:14Z m1dnight_: It's a field in compsci
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2015-06-01T22:12:06Z fluvian: m1dnight_: interesting, could you point me to some references?
2015-06-01T22:12:30Z m1dnight_: Hold on, few people are working on it at my uni.
2015-06-01T22:13:11Z Kooda: I would also be interested. :)
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2015-06-01T22:13:56Z Kooda: Some Common Lisp systems have s-exp editors rather than text editors. Maybe they also had that kind of version control as well.
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2015-06-01T22:15:04Z fluvian: Kooda: I've heard some buzz about that idea recently
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2015-06-01T22:15:22Z fluvian: not necessarily s-exp editors, but semantic/visual editors
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2015-06-01T22:15:47Z fluvian: people have been trying to do it for a long time I think, most attempts have fallen kind of flat :P
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2015-06-01T22:16:36Z Kooda: Well… paredit is kind of that, without giving up on normal text.
2015-06-01T22:16:50Z Kooda: And yes, this isn’t new. :)
2015-06-01T22:17:05Z fluvian: yeah paredit is the closest thing I know of
2015-06-01T22:17:22Z Kooda: Old BASIC computers were actually doing that internally.
2015-06-01T22:17:29Z ijp: fluvian: I've seen several scheme "diffs", but not an attempt at a vcs
2015-06-01T22:17:33Z m1dnight_: I cant seem to find the research
2015-06-01T22:17:38Z m1dnight_: hold on, ill browse some more :p
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2015-06-01T22:19:39Z fluvian: ijp: if there is a working differ it shouldn't be too hard to integrate it into an existing VCS
2015-06-01T22:22:06Z m1dnight_: differ as in two-way differ, right?
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2015-06-01T22:22:20Z m1dnight_: (or is that by definition?)
2015-06-01T22:22:22Z fluvian: differ + patcher I guess
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2015-06-01T22:23:19Z fluvian: is there an archive for this channel? I have to go for a bit but I'd like to see if anyone comes up with something.
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2015-06-01T22:24:07Z fluvian: ah nvm found it in MOTD
2015-06-01T22:24:14Z fluvian: err topic
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2015-06-01T22:35:38Z m1dnight_: Ill have to ask about it at the lab tomorrow.
2015-06-01T22:36:36Z m1dnight_: The only thing I found so far is this: http://soft.vub.ac.be/Publications/2015/vub-soft-tr-15-05.pdf
2015-06-01T22:36:53Z m1dnight_: I havent read it myself though, I have a thesis deadline in 2 weeks :p
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2015-06-01T22:37:54Z Riastradh: Kooda: I've never heard of a Common Lisp structure editor, but Interlisp-D had a structure editor called SEdit.
2015-06-01T22:38:09Z m1dnight_: Yes, im curious about a sexp editor :p
2015-06-01T22:38:11Z m1dnight_: I wonder what it is..
2015-06-01T22:38:29Z Riastradh: No modern software that I know of implements a structure editor per se.
2015-06-01T22:38:44Z Riastradh: But paredit makes a text editor imitate one: http://mumble.net/~campbell/emacs/paredit.el
2015-06-01T22:45:04Z m1dnight_: oh yeah i know paredit, cant live without it tbh :p
2015-06-01T22:45:24Z m1dnight_: I was also thinking about a differ for sexps but it seems like a fairly trivial thing to implement
2015-06-01T22:45:30Z m1dnight_: not sure though..
2015-06-01T22:46:08Z m1dnight_: any scheme program can be represented as a DAG and then its the issue of finding common subgraphs between them, extracting the differend subgraphs and youre done
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2015-06-01T22:46:28Z m1dnight_: Havent really thought it through yet :p
2015-06-01T22:46:32Z m1dnight_: but im out for the night o/
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2015-06-02T08:36:39Z madmuppet006: anyone know of a decent scheme to use on android .. I used to use gambit but it looks unavaliable now?
2015-06-02T08:38:12Z taylanub: madmuppet006: maybe Chibi.  I heard Gambit works on Android and iOS but dunno.
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2015-06-02T08:40:30Z Kooda: CHICKEN works on Android iirc. But it doesn’t have a pre-built application, if that’s what you are looking for.
2015-06-02T08:40:35Z madmuppet006: taylanub: gambit did work on android .. its not avaliable anymore .. chibi I will look into thanks
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2015-06-02T08:42:11Z madmuppet006: kooda: yeah would prefer prebuilt .. I have used chicken so will have a look thanks
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2015-06-02T15:31:32Z Tirifto: Hello! I have a question. How come this program/procedure counts up and doesn't reset to 0 on every run? http://hastebin.com/raw/acawumebeh
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2015-06-02T15:35:54Z vraid: Tirifto: next is bound *outside* of the functions, and thus is not reinitialized when the function is called
2015-06-02T15:37:39Z taylanub: Tirifto: the created procedure contains a reference to a variable that was created independently of the procedure.  if the 'let' were inside the 'lambda', then the created procedure would be binding a new variable each time it's called, but here the 'let' is outside the 'lambda' (which creates the procedure), so the variable is bound once, then a reference to it inserted into the procedure being
2015-06-02T15:37:40Z taylanub: created, so naturally its value persists across multiple calls to the procedure.
2015-06-02T15:40:09Z Tirifto: Ah, I see. So does this let work in the global environment?
2015-06-02T15:40:24Z taylanub: nope, just one environment above the lambda in this case.  environments nest to arbitrary depth.
2015-06-02T15:40:27Z Tirifto: Or 'global scope', if that's the right terminology?
2015-06-02T15:41:19Z Tirifto: So it operates in the environment of the 'count' procedure?
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2015-06-02T15:41:56Z taylanub: it creates an environment with the 'next' binding in it, then within that environment a procedure is created.  procedures inherit the environment in which they were created.
2015-06-02T15:42:33Z taylanub: they're said to "close over" their (external) environment, hence sometimes called "closures"
2015-06-02T15:43:31Z taylanub: every time the procedure is called, it creates a sub-environment inheriting from the procedure's saved environment; this sub-environment just adds the parameter/argument bindings to the inherited one.
2015-06-02T15:43:53Z Tirifto: Ohh, I forgot that let has a body! That clears up a lot for me.
2015-06-02T15:45:10Z taylanub: (let ((foo 1) (bar 2)) (lambda (x y) ...))  =  results in a procedure which when called, takes the {foo = 1, bar = 2} environment, and adds the new bindings {x = arg1, y = arg2} to it, yielding {foo = 1, bar = 2, x = arg1, y = arg2}, in which the procedure's body is then executed
2015-06-02T15:45:51Z taylanub: e.g. if I called it like (the-proc 3 4) then x and y would be bound to 3 and 4 for that call
2015-06-02T15:46:27Z pjb: (let ((foo 1) (bar 2)) e) is also equivalent to ((lambda (foo bar) e) 1 2)
2015-06-02T15:46:57Z pjb: (let ((foo 1) (bar 2)) (lambda (x y) (+ x y foo bar))) == ((lambda (foo bar) (lambda (x y) (+ x y foo bar))) 1 2)
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2015-06-02T15:48:27Z Tirifto: taylanub: And if you called it one more time, 'foo' and 'bar' wouldn't be reassigned, but the procedure would just read that 'foo' is already 1 and 'bar' is already 2, since they were assigned the first time and they persist, right?
2015-06-02T15:49:40Z Tirifto: pjb: Does using 'let' instead of 'lambda' result in less confusing code?
2015-06-02T15:52:08Z vraid: Tirifto: (let ((a n) (b k)) body) is better than ((lambda (a b) body) n k)
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2015-06-02T15:53:40Z taylanub: Tirifto: correct, and yes, there is very little reason to do ((lambda (...) ...) ...) when one can do (let (... ...) ...)
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2015-06-02T15:54:57Z taylanub: but it's useful to know that both are really 100% same in their semantics
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2015-06-02T15:55:42Z taylanub: and (let* ((a x) (b y)) ...) is 100% same as (let ((a x)) (let ((b y)) ...))
2015-06-02T15:56:24Z Tirifto: So forms bound by ((lambda (...) ...) ...) will be persistent, too?
2015-06-02T16:00:22Z taylanub: yup
2015-06-02T16:00:54Z Tirifto: And does the program know that the forms are already bound by checking the procedure's environment when executing it?
2015-06-02T16:00:59Z taylanub: e.g. (define (make-adder n) (lambda (x) (+ x n)))  (define five-adder (make-adder 5))  (five-adder 7) = 12
2015-06-02T16:01:51Z taylanub: the environment is simply saved within the procedure data structure so to speak (this structure is highly implementation dependent and opaque)
2015-06-02T16:03:34Z Tirifto: taylanub: About that make-adder... When you define five-adder, what does the 5 become? x, or n?
2015-06-02T16:04:07Z taylanub: Tirifto: what'd you guess?
2015-06-02T16:05:06Z taylanub: the (define (foo ...) ...) convenience syntax is there because it makes the definition look visually similar to calling the defined function: (foo ...), so it should be obvious which value gets bound to which variable :)
2015-06-02T16:05:20Z taylanub: remember that it's equivalent to (define foo (lambda (...) ...))
2015-06-02T16:05:28Z taylanub gotta go AFK
2015-06-02T16:06:14Z Tirifto: taylanub: Enjoy your holidays!
2015-06-02T16:09:19Z Tirifto: (define ...) evaluates its arguments, right?
2015-06-02T16:09:48Z Tirifto: Before it binds them
2015-06-02T16:10:49Z pjb: Nope.
2015-06-02T16:11:10Z pjb: The 2-argument define doesn't evaluate its first argument.  Only it's second.
2015-06-02T16:11:33Z pjb: The N-argument with N>2 define doesn't evaluate any of its arguments.  It evaluates a lambda form it builds from them.
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2015-06-02T18:16:12Z Tirifto: (define (make-adder n) (lambda (x) (+ x n)))  |  (define five-adder (make-adder 5))  |  (five-adder 7) = 12
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2015-06-02T18:16:24Z Tirifto: 'n' is 5, right?
2015-06-02T18:16:37Z Tirifto: 'x'*
2015-06-02T18:17:17Z Tirifto: 'x' is 5 and 'n' is 7, is that correct?
2015-06-02T18:22:02Z pjb: "yes".
2015-06-02T18:23:41Z Tirifto: (thanks pjb)
2015-06-02T18:33:16Z Tirifto: Is it common to put *earmuffs* in global variables' names in Scheme?
2015-06-02T18:34:29Z ecraven: Tirifto: I do it, but many don't
2015-06-02T18:34:38Z ecraven: I also use +constant+, so I may be very CLish
2015-06-02T18:38:25Z Tirifto: Also, if I'm learning Scheme using the Guile implementation, is it correct to say that I'm programming in Scheme, Guile, or both?
2015-06-02T18:42:03Z ecraven: whatever you want :)
2015-06-02T18:42:48Z ecraven: though slightly more people might know what Scheme is than what Guile is (or maybe not, given guile's presence in the gimp and maybe soon emacs?)
2015-06-02T18:43:21Z DerGuteMoritz: guile goes with everything!
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2015-06-02T18:54:23Z mario-goulart: Tirifto: you can just say "I'm programming, motherfucker"
2015-06-02T18:54:32Z mario-goulart: and show the link http://programming-motherfucker.com/
2015-06-02T18:56:06Z ijp: see also http://motherfuckingwebsite.com/
2015-06-02T18:56:47Z mario-goulart: However, judging by the miserable state of librelist.com, I suppose zed shawn just gave up on his ideology.
2015-06-02T19:01:00Z taylanub: Tirifto: er, no, 'n' gets 5, later 'x' gets 7
2015-06-02T19:01:48Z Tirifto: mario-goulart: Nice website! Unfortunately I do not use any swear words, though.
2015-06-02T19:01:57Z taylanub: Tirifto: Guile is generally conformant to the Scheme standards so it'd be correct to say you program in Scheme, but it might become quickly relevant that you're using extensions which aren't in the standards
2015-06-02T19:02:32Z Tirifto: taylanub: But... how does the binding progress then? ;_;
2015-06-02T19:02:32Z taylanub: http://bettermotherfuckingwebsite.com/ >>> http://motherfuckingwebsite.com/
2015-06-02T19:03:20Z taylanub: Tirifto: let's turn it into plain lambda using define first:  (define make-adder (lambda (n) (lambda (x) (+ x n))))
2015-06-02T19:03:53Z taylanub: now use the substitution model on (make-adder 5):  ((lambda (n) (lambda (x) (+ x n))) 5)
2015-06-02T19:04:32Z taylanub: let's cut out the middle for clarity:  ((lambda (n) ...) 5)
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2015-06-02T19:04:54Z Tirifto: I thought the middle would get evaluated first :o
2015-06-02T19:04:55Z taylanub: so clearly, n will be bound to 5, then the body which I dotted out will be executed in the scope where {n = 5
2015-06-02T19:05:06Z taylanub: n = 5*
2015-06-02T19:06:00Z taylanub: evaluation of nested expressions is inside-out, like in (+ 3 (* 2 4)), the multiplication is evaluated first (not that it matters here), but special-forms like lambda change the rules.
2015-06-02T19:07:42Z taylanub: well, actually, the rule isn't simply "inside out".  you could say it does start from the outside at all times, but if the first element is not a special form, then it first delves deeper, and so on.  so in practice it ends up being inside-out unless you have special forms in play.  in our case there's lambda in play, which causes the intepreter ("evaluator" to be exact) to do something other than
2015-06-02T19:07:42Z taylanub: just go deeper and deeper.  namely, to just create a procedure with the given body, without touching the body.
2015-06-02T19:09:37Z taylanub: .oO( I'm probably over-complicating things again. )
2015-06-02T19:10:50Z taylanub: BTW if you want a complete version of my beginner-unfriendly explanation of lisp semantics, here :P  http://taylanub.github.io/doc/lisp-rundown.txt
2015-06-02T19:11:37Z taylanub: (wrote that for people who know some prog langs already, and a (semi-)structured data language like JSON or XML, but maybe you can use it too)
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2015-06-02T19:12:19Z ijp: taylanub: so what? that's motherfuckingwebsite + bootstrap?
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2015-06-02T19:12:42Z ijp: hmm, no, they aren't using bootstrap
2015-06-02T19:12:45Z Tirifto: Actually I think I already learnt that here: http://hastebin.com/raw/edusobiyal
2015-06-02T19:13:18Z Tirifto: I'll just re-read the logs
2015-06-02T19:15:04Z Tirifto: taylanub: Actually, how come it works with just one form (5)?
2015-06-02T19:18:23Z taylanub: Tirifto: how do you mean?
2015-06-02T19:19:02Z taylanub: oh do you mean you expected the result of (lambda (a) (lambda (b) ...)) to expect two arguments?
2015-06-02T19:20:04Z taylanub: that's not how Scheme does it; the outer lambda "doesn't know" anything about the inner lambda ... the outer lambda just creates a procedure expecting one argument; when that procedure is called then the body is evaluated, which happens to contain 'lambda' again so it creates a new procedure (also expecting one argument) and returns that procedure
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2015-06-02T19:42:01Z pjb: taylanub: both http://bettermotherfuckingwebsite.com/ and http://motherfuckingwebsite.com/ render EXACTLY the same, in w3m.  What the Fuck?!?
2015-06-02T19:42:47Z taylanub: pjb: hahaha, that's a feature of the former; it leverages CSS support without breaking at its absence :P
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2015-06-02T21:16:56Z saul: Is there a procedure like 'delq' that will only remove one occurrence of the item from the list?
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2015-06-02T21:31:04Z taylanub: saul: never heard of.  straightforward to implement though.
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2015-06-02T21:36:29Z saul: taylanub, thanks. I understand its near trivial to implement. I just didn't wish to do so if there was already a procedure.
2015-06-02T21:39:52Z taylanub: hm, one could "cheat" given remp (from r6rs; takes a predicate) by using a stateful predicate that only returns true once :P
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2015-06-02T21:42:00Z taylanub: i.e. (remp (let ((found? #f)) (lambda (elt) (and (not found?) (eq? elt some-obj) (begin (set! found? #t) #t)))) the-list) or so
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2015-06-03T02:21:26Z fluvian: the top answer on this page describes a (common) lisp macro to replicate python's list comprehension syntax. am I correct that this syntax is impossible with scheme's notion of macros?
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2015-06-03T02:21:30Z fluvian: http://stackoverflow.com/questions/267862/what-makes-lisp-macros-so-special
2015-06-03T02:21:30Z rudybot: http://teensy.info/OM43duaNvV
2015-06-03T02:22:00Z fluvian: scheme macros still have to be in prefix notation, right?
2015-06-03T02:22:31Z fluvian: so no ((* 2 x) for x in (range 10)) or something
2015-06-03T02:27:17Z pjb: fluvian: I believe there is at least one scheme that has reader macros.
2015-06-03T02:27:42Z pjb: what's wrong with (enumerate (* 2 x) for x in (range 10))  ?
2015-06-03T02:29:35Z fluvian: nothing wrong with scheme's approach at all, just checking that I understand correctly.
2015-06-03T02:31:45Z fluvian: I actually think that the clisp example was a rather confusing piece of code, with symbol generation and quasiquoting and stuff
2015-06-03T02:31:57Z fluvian: hygienic macros are cleaner
2015-06-03T02:33:23Z pjb: My question is unrelated to who it's implemented.
2015-06-03T02:33:38Z pjb: Why would you want to write: ((* 2 x) for x in (range 10)) instead of  (enumerate (* 2 x) for x in (range 10))?
2015-06-03T02:34:05Z fluvian: I don't necessarily want to. just curious if it's possible
2015-06-03T02:34:06Z pjb: s/who/how/
2015-06-03T02:34:24Z pjb: You could define * in such a way that it would be possible.
2015-06-03T02:47:45Z fluvian: pjb: one problem is that I actually can't figure out how to implement the enumerate syntax you suggested
2015-06-03T02:48:42Z fluvian: but maybe I should talk to the Racket guys for that. I can't seem to figure out how to allow unbound symbols like the "for" in your example
2015-06-03T02:50:47Z fluvian: do I need to quasiquote my syntax patterns?
2015-06-03T02:52:14Z pjb: fluvian: I wouldn't know with scheme hygienic macros either.  But it's trivial with Common Lisp macros.
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2015-06-03T02:52:54Z fluvian: yeah that stackexchange link shows how to do it
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2015-06-03T02:54:21Z fluvian: is it even possible with scheme?
2015-06-03T02:54:22Z fluvian: as a simpler example I'm trying to write a macro (do-math x plus y) that expands to (+ x y), but I can't seem to figure it out
2015-06-03T02:57:28Z mikeyhc: fluvian: http://pastebin.com/R7LCkE93
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2015-06-03T03:01:33Z fluvian: thank you mikeyhc. I was missing the first argument to syntax-rules
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2015-06-03T03:05:50Z mikeyhc: fluvian: also have a solution for your enumerate if you get stuck
2015-06-03T03:11:36Z fluvian: mikeyhc: I am not sure how to bind the variable that the user chooses
2015-06-03T03:11:36Z fluvian: e.g. x in (enum (* x 2) for x in '(1 2 3))
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2015-06-03T03:12:12Z mikeyhc: I used a map with a lambda and set the parameter to be the variable
2015-06-03T03:12:21Z mikeyhc: http://pastebin.com/zWkL0Ck5
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2015-06-03T03:13:06Z pjb: Or you can expand to a named let: (let enum ((list '(1 2 3)) (result '())) (if (null? list) (reverse! result) (enum (cdr list) (let ((x (car list))) (cons (* x 2) result)))))
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2015-06-03T03:18:44Z fluvian: thanks again mikeyhc I think I understand now
2015-06-03T03:19:08Z fluvian: pjb: that example is a little complicated
2015-06-03T03:22:07Z mikeyhc: fluvian: http://pastebin.com/gih8aVNe
2015-06-03T03:22:16Z mikeyhc: fluvian: added an expanded version if that helps
2015-06-03T03:22:56Z fluvian: thanks. I'm figuring out how to extend it with a filter option now
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2015-06-03T16:53:04Z Riastradh: FYI, if any of you use SourceForge for projects you care about, you may want to rethink that and move away from it pronto.
2015-06-03T16:53:24Z Riastradh: http://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2015/06/sourceforge-locked-in-projects-of-fleeing-users-cashed-in-on-malvertising/ http://seclists.org/nmap-dev/2015/q2/194
2015-06-03T16:53:24Z rudybot: http://teensy.info/MC9U41CHi3
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2015-06-03T19:04:14Z kephra: Riastradh, download.cnet, chip.de, sourceforge, ... they all went from hosting for "free" to distributing maleware, because free open source hosting does not pay the bill
2015-06-03T19:04:24Z kephra: likely next will be github
2015-06-03T19:05:05Z kephra: code.google also closed - so the best is: pay u$7/year for your own domain - and host yourself
2015-06-03T19:05:28Z vraid: github does have paying customers, and gets around much of the storage and bandwidth usage by only hosting source files
2015-06-03T19:07:03Z XTL: gitorious has been taken over. No idea what the other one's like
2015-06-03T19:07:16Z XTL: Looks like a more open affair, though
2015-06-03T19:07:18Z kephra: http://seclists.org/nmap-dev/2015/q2/194 <- btw an more inside example of why sf sucks
2015-06-03T19:08:12Z XTL: bitbucket.org also has paid accounts
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2015-06-04T17:44:33Z tirifto_: Good day!
2015-06-04T17:45:22Z tirifto_: Question: Is 'define-syntax' commonly used and important to understand, or can I pass it after a quick glance?
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2015-06-04T17:49:31Z taylanub: tirifto_: 'define-syntax' is commonly used but also very simple; it just binds a new syntax keyword.  the more complicated one is 'syntax-rules', which is usually used to construct a syntax transformer to be bound to a new syntax keyword.  that one is also pretty common and you should learn it if you want to learn Scheme in general.
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2015-06-04T17:50:27Z tirifto_: All right, I'll look into it!
2015-06-04T17:50:57Z tirifto_: Also, is it a good idea do learn from multiple books at the same time?
2015-06-04T17:52:02Z taylanub: dunno
2015-06-04T17:52:49Z tirifto_: And what is the main difference between 'define' and 'define-syntax'?
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2015-06-04T17:55:43Z ijp: one binds functions, the other binds macros
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2015-06-04T18:06:14Z Kooda: tirifto_: I found this quite helpful to understand syntax-rules, hope this can help you :) http://www.phyast.pitt.edu/~micheles/syntax-rules.pdf
2015-06-04T18:10:01Z tirifto_: Thanks! I'll read it through the following days :)
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2015-06-04T18:11:48Z ijp: I would recommend not reading that
2015-06-04T18:12:05Z tirifto_: Why not? :o
2015-06-04T18:13:46Z ijp: because you may end up writing macros the way that primer does
2015-06-04T18:15:15Z tirifto_: Does the primer way mean an inefficient and overly simplified way?
2015-06-04T18:16:51Z Kooda: Well, I must admit I didn’t really like the last part of it. But I think it explains how syntax-rules works nicely.
2015-06-04T18:17:01Z Kooda: Though I’m far from being a macro guru. :Þ
2015-06-04T18:17:18Z ijp: tirifto_: quite the opposite
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2015-06-04T18:18:21Z tirifto_: ijp: So... a very efficient, but overly complicated way?
2015-06-04T18:18:29Z ijp: no, just overly complicated
2015-06-04T18:18:55Z tirifto_: Where could I find a good resource to learn from, then?
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2015-06-04T18:26:30Z ijp: I probably would have said http://docs.racket-lang.org/guide/pattern-macros.html but that also talks about identifier macros which are nonstandard
2015-06-04T18:27:03Z ijp: [pedantry: rather nonstandard except for in r6rs, but that version is different from the version described there anyway]
2015-06-04T18:27:23Z ijp: but there is actually very little you need to know for syntax rules anyway
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2015-06-05T16:45:51Z phale: when should I use (list 3 3) over '(3 3)
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2015-06-05T16:49:14Z LeoNerd: The former creates a new list in fresh distinct storage every time the statement is executed
2015-06-05T16:49:25Z LeoNerd: The latter may return the *same* storage that's statically part of the program structure
2015-06-05T16:49:34Z LeoNerd: Consider what will happen if you, say, set-car! that returned list
2015-06-05T16:50:15Z ijp: yeah, but who mutates lists anyway?
2015-06-05T16:50:39Z LeoNerd: Wellquite - if you don't mutate it, then the distinction is largely irrelevant, asides from such considerations as resource usage
2015-06-05T16:51:31Z phale: 1 more thing, is there man pages for scheme procedures
2015-06-05T16:51:42Z phale: or something similar
2015-06-05T16:53:12Z LeoNerd: Well, that's a question for your implementation :)
2015-06-05T16:53:39Z phale: chicken scheme
2015-06-05T16:56:20Z LeoNerd: .. and one I'm not qualified to answer
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2015-06-05T17:09:08Z DerGuteMoritz: phale: there's an egg called chicken-doc which provides a facility for that. feel free to join the #chicken channel here on freenode, too, for chicken specific questions.
2015-06-05T17:09:21Z phale: DerGuteMoritz: thank you
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2015-06-05T17:14:29Z DerGuteMoritz: yw!
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2015-06-05T21:19:58Z koz_: Is anyone familiar with Bigloo's pattern matching? I'm a bit confused about it
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2015-06-05T21:23:56Z koz_: Basically, I have this code: http://dpaste.com/05C1EPS
2015-06-05T21:24:38Z koz_: When I try to execute (make-vec '(1.0 2.0)), I get the following error: *** ERROR:-:
2015-06-05T21:24:38Z koz_: not a number -- ((1.0 2.0))
2015-06-05T21:24:45Z koz_: I have *no clue* why it's doing that.
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2015-06-05T21:41:49Z pjb: Try (make-vec 3)
2015-06-05T21:42:11Z pjb: It's doing that because square peg, round hole.
2015-06-05T21:42:48Z pjb: The fact that you have no clue about a skill you should have aquired by the age of 5 is terrorizing.
2015-06-05T21:44:15Z Riastradh: What, precisely, is the skill one should have acquired by the age of 5?
2015-06-05T21:44:20Z ijp: and this is why we people don't invite pjb to parties
2015-06-05T21:44:43Z ijp: s/we// or s/people// as you prefer
2015-06-05T21:44:45Z pjb: Riastradh: square peg into square hole.  Put an integer into a function that takes an integer.
2015-06-05T21:45:11Z vanila: lol pjb does thah make you feel good about yourself\\
2015-06-05T21:45:39Z Riastradh: Well, by golly.  Now that I know it was pegs & holes we were talking about, I see the source of the problem!
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2015-06-05T22:06:44Z vraid: vanila: well, now we know that pjb has at least the intelligence of a six year-old
2015-06-05T22:08:07Z tsumetai: Maybe I'm stupid but I don't think (make-vec 3) would work?
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2015-06-05T22:08:51Z koz_: pjb: Why is it expecting a single integer?
2015-06-05T22:09:01Z tsumetai: koz_: The parameter args collects all arguments into a list. (make-vec 1.0 2.0) would result in args being (1.0 2.0)
2015-06-05T22:09:38Z koz_: tsumetai: But I'm trying to pattern-match on the whole list. Or at least, that's what I wanna do.
2015-06-05T22:09:55Z koz_: At least I believed that match-case args would try to match the list.
2015-06-05T22:10:09Z tsumetai: (make-vec '(1.0 2.0)) <- here args is ((1.0 2.0)) not (1.0 2.0)
2015-06-05T22:11:02Z koz_: tsumetai: Oh.
2015-06-05T22:11:06Z koz_: Now I feel like a retard.
2015-06-05T22:11:08Z koz_: Thanks...
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2015-06-05T22:12:39Z koz_: tsumetai: Even when I correct it to (make-vec 1.0 2.0), I still get the same error...
2015-06-05T22:14:59Z tsumetai: I suppose I should figure out what I'm talking about then. :o
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2015-06-05T22:19:48Z tsumetai: koz_: Well, I don't think it's the *exact* same error message, is it?
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2015-06-05T22:21:23Z vanila: ((and x? (? float?)) (and y? (? float?)))
2015-06-05T22:21:25Z vanila: try pattern like that
2015-06-05T22:21:39Z koz_: tsumetai: It is actually. vanila: Will try, thanks!
2015-06-05T22:22:02Z vanila: oops, correction: ?x and ?y
2015-06-05T22:22:38Z tsumetai: I think ? - should be ?-, maybe?
2015-06-05T22:23:08Z koz_: tsumetai: Yeah, you're right.
2015-06-05T22:23:12Z koz_: Sorry, I'm a noob.
2015-06-05T22:23:45Z koz_: vanila: Your suggestion yields this: Unbound variable -- float?
2015-06-05T22:24:09Z vanila: what shall we use instead of float?
2015-06-05T22:24:22Z vanila: number? maybe
2015-06-05T22:24:47Z koz_: OK, will try.
2015-06-05T22:25:55Z koz_: number? just fails to match anything.
2015-06-05T22:26:15Z koz_: If I do this: (?x ?y) I get a match
2015-06-05T22:26:25Z koz_: Now I just need to figure out how to force it to check for number-ness.
2015-06-05T22:26:41Z vanila: I was going by this http://www-sop.inria.fr/mimosa/fp/Bigloo/doc/bigloo-8.html
2015-06-05T22:26:50Z vanila: but if number?s not working im not sure what to do
2015-06-05T22:28:18Z koz_: I think I'm just misunderstanding the syntax.
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2015-06-05T22:32:13Z koz_: Also, it seems the last entry fails to serve as a catch-all.
2015-06-05T22:32:26Z koz_: As I understood, ?- means 'whatever'.
2015-06-05T22:35:42Z tsumetai: Does this work? (match-case '(1.0 2.0) ( ((and ?x (? number?)) (and ?y (? number?)) ) 'foo ) )
2015-06-05T22:37:16Z tsumetai: (match-case 'anything (?- 'bar))
2015-06-05T22:38:26Z koz_: Yes, both of those work.
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2015-06-05T22:45:35Z koz_: OK, that should do for me. Also, am I just blind, or does R5RS *not* have anything in it that's just 'signal an error'?
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2015-06-05T22:50:16Z tsumetai: I don't think it does.
2015-06-05T22:50:40Z koz_: tsumetai: OK, thanks everyone!
2015-06-05T22:50:57Z koz_: Seems like Bigloo pattern matching only works on Scheme types.
2015-06-05T22:51:54Z tsumetai: As opposed to? :o
2015-06-05T22:52:09Z koz_: tsumetai: Some Bigloo stuff can work with C types.
2015-06-05T22:52:12Z koz_: Like float, double etc.
2015-06-05T22:52:20Z koz_: But not pattern matching seemingly.
2015-06-05T22:52:55Z tsumetai: Hm, but that shouldn't matter I don't think, since you specify the predicate yourself?
2015-06-05T22:53:28Z tsumetai: I think you might want flonum?, or something.
2015-06-05T22:54:00Z tsumetai: http://www-sop.inria.fr/mimosa/fp/Bigloo/doc/bigloo-7.html#g3706
2015-06-05T22:55:08Z tsumetai: Perhaps it doesn't have all the predicates you're interested in, though.
2015-06-05T22:55:25Z koz_: tsumetai: flonum? looks like what I seek.
2015-06-05T22:58:37Z tsumetai: Maybe an alternative: (define make-vec (lambda args (if (every flonum? args) args (error "Not all flonums!"))))
2015-06-05T22:58:59Z vanila: very nice and simple!
2015-06-05T23:01:10Z koz_: tsumetai: I basically wanted to practice pattern matching.
2015-06-05T23:01:16Z koz_: I wouldn't write this otherwise. :P
2015-06-05T23:02:45Z tsumetai: I see. :)
2015-06-05T23:03:23Z koz_: But I think I've got the idea now. Thanks for all the help.
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2015-06-05T23:10:45Z tsumetai: Hm. I think I'd prefer less parens in match-case's syntax.
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2015-06-05T23:57:07Z teurastaja: dudes i feel 1337 just finished my dancing links sudoku solver in R7RS-enabled gauche scheme
2015-06-05T23:57:24Z teurastaja: where should i publish it?
2015-06-05T23:58:00Z teurastaja: its portable code
2015-06-05T23:58:39Z teurastaja: totally portable. id be surprised it wouldnt work on any r7rs implementation
2015-06-05T23:59:06Z teurastaja: r7rs works!
2015-06-06T00:00:08Z teurastaja: is there a place that collects scheme programs?
2015-06-06T00:01:11Z teurastaja: ping....
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2015-06-06T00:09:03Z teurastaja: you guys are boring to watch write
2015-06-06T00:18:04Z teurastaja: ridiculous
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2015-06-06T00:24:50Z Tbone139: I don't know of any, but congrats!
2015-06-06T00:24:55Z pjb: teurastaja: github?
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2015-06-06T00:25:59Z teurastaja: oh yeah... github
2015-06-06T00:26:01Z teurastaja: thx
2015-06-06T00:26:23Z teurastaja: will give you the link soon
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2015-06-06T00:27:32Z koz_: Is there some kind of documentation processor for Scheme?
2015-06-06T00:27:42Z koz_: In fact, what's the convention for documentation comments for Scheme?
2015-06-06T00:28:23Z teurastaja: ; and #| |#
2015-06-06T00:29:49Z koz_: teurastaja: So just block comments however the hell you want?
2015-06-06T00:30:12Z teurastaja: at least thats how i do it
2015-06-06T00:31:02Z teurastaja: i prefer giving descriptive names to my variables and abstract th code enough to look self-descriptive but i guess its a matter of style
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2015-06-06T00:31:32Z vraid: sometimes you want to document the pitfalls of the code
2015-06-06T00:32:00Z koz_: I'm guessing there's no documentation processors for Scheme code?
2015-06-06T00:32:00Z vraid: or explanation why things were done in one way rather than another
2015-06-06T00:32:41Z Tbone139: this has some commenting suggestions and their rationale, in particular there's a bit about avoiding block comments in favor of s-expressions for compatibility http://mumble.net/~campbell/scheme/style.txt
2015-06-06T00:32:49Z teurastaja: yes but since my ex-teacher wanted more comments than code i gave up on that
2015-06-06T00:33:47Z pjb: More comments than code… You could comment your program like soccer TV commenters comment soccer matches.
2015-06-06T00:34:33Z koz_: pjb: As a non-fan, explain what that means?
2015-06-06T00:35:07Z Tbone139: ;; cloooooooooooosure!!!!
2015-06-06T00:36:24Z pjb: koz_: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZAIUxhyUQOU
2015-06-06T00:39:01Z koz_: Lol, nice video pjb.
2015-06-06T00:39:50Z koz_: The Spanish one in particular is wtf.
2015-06-06T00:41:35Z pjb: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZAIUxhyUQOU
2015-06-06T00:41:56Z pjb: I mean: https://youtu.be/kEooPYzsNoo?t=86
2015-06-06T00:52:08Z koz_: Hmmm, it seems that Scheme doesn't have a constant pi anywhere.
2015-06-06T00:52:22Z koz_: At least not Bigloo near as I can tell.
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2015-06-06T07:55:01Z taylanub: not in any standard, but some have one surely
2015-06-06T07:55:50Z taylanub: could have sworn Guile had one but can't find ... meh
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2015-06-06T07:57:20Z taylanub: ah, (asin 1) is pi/2
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2015-06-06T07:57:34Z taylanub: koz_: (* 2 (asin 1)) should give you a good pi
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2015-06-06T11:45:27Z koz_: taylanub: Interesting - thank you!
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2015-06-06T17:23:10Z MikOo: hello I need some advices.
2015-06-06T17:23:10Z MikOo: For you what is the most efficient "repeated" function among these http://dpaste.com/1RR86JS ?
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2015-06-06T17:28:44Z pjb: MikOo: repeated2 uses more space, since it builds a chain of closures of length n.
2015-06-06T17:29:21Z pjb: MikOo: http://paste.lisp.org/+377W this one would be more "efficient".
2015-06-06T17:30:34Z MikOo: pjb: but this has the sama complexity than repeated in my paste, isn't it ?
2015-06-06T17:30:41Z MikOo: *same
2015-06-06T17:30:44Z pjb: Yes.
2015-06-06T17:32:08Z pjb: But given that the universe has a finite life time, and that our computers are NOT Turing Machines (they don't have infinite memory), then all the execution times and memory spaces are bounded by a finite number, and therefore there is no asymptote: all our programs are O(1) and what counts, are the constants.
2015-06-06T17:32:12Z MikOo: pjb: ok thanks, I find repeated2 solution on the net but I prefer mine. the hint in sicp book  (ex 1.43) is a false good idea :-)
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2015-06-06T17:33:45Z pjb: MikOo: indeed, not using compose is better in this case.
2015-06-06T17:34:16Z pjb: repeated2 is nice for the mathematical and simplicity aspects of it.
2015-06-06T17:36:50Z MikOo: pjb: but it stacks two times, once when it builds function, and twice when it calls. repeated3 stacks one time on the other side.
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2015-06-06T17:58:21Z MikOo: thank you pjb
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2015-06-06T19:12:03Z kephra: MikOo, http://o3db.com/proto/dpaste.html#1RR86JS <- do you have any example data to feed into the repeated function?
2015-06-06T19:16:00Z kephra: *ah* gotcha in SICP
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2015-06-06T19:20:18Z kephra: http://o3db.com/proto/dpaste.html#2A23GS5 <- MikOo your code with example call
2015-06-06T19:21:22Z kephra: http://o3db.com/proto/dpaste.html#2A23GS5 <- and with debugging info for the interpreter
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2015-06-06T19:23:05Z kephra: http://o3db.com/proto/dpaste.html#0HNQ28K <- *oups* this is the one with debugging on
2015-06-06T19:23:50Z kephra: btw, thanks for using dpaste - because dpaste is the only (sane) paste site I know that allows CORS
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2015-06-06T19:26:38Z kephra: Paul Bissex (Thu, 21 May 2015 02:19:02 +0200) "I look forward to a surge of Scheme pastes :)" <- dpaste author
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2015-06-06T20:02:25Z kephra: http://o3db.com/proto/dpaste.html#1KZVJY9 <- and an other version - this time with timings
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2015-06-06T20:05:30Z kephra: http://o3db.com/proto/dpaste.html#3SG6QN1 <- thats a better timing, MikOo - showing that at least in my implementation repeated is about 50% faster then repeated2 or repeated3
2015-06-06T20:05:45Z kephra: the timings of other schemes might be totally different
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2015-06-06T20:07:06Z kephra: raising (repeated3 square 2) to something bigger will mainly test performance of (my) bignum lib
2015-06-06T20:12:16Z kephra: http://o3db.com/proto/dpaste.html#18YJ3D0 <- pjb the more "efficient" loop version has about about same speed as the first f_iter version in my implementation
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2015-06-06T21:00:18Z teurastaja: benchmarks for an r7rs program?
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2015-06-06T21:04:30Z teurastaja: ping
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2015-06-06T22:55:55Z MikOo: hi, kephra. So it seems the pjb's version that is slightly faster. But they are equivalent. On my implementation from time complexity point of view all function were equivalent. but from the space complexity repeated and pjb's repeated function are better. thanks for the tests
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2015-06-06T23:07:26Z kephra: the test is of course not representative - my Scheme look like is slow as hell
2015-06-06T23:07:54Z kephra: so the loop version might become much faster if loop wont be implemented as a macro
2015-06-06T23:08:34Z kephra: *oups* /me stupid - ignore this
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2015-06-06T23:10:04Z kephra: i shortly switched into Lisp mode, just because of the "loop" keyword
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2015-06-06T23:49:33Z pjb: kephra: (let loop ((v e) …) b) == (begin (define loop (lambda (v …) b)) (loop e …))
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2015-06-07T00:28:33Z MikOo: I learn Scheme and I don't know Lisp, so I can't appreciate yet these subtleties
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2015-06-07T04:34:53Z teurastaja: so whos talking?
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2015-06-07T04:45:08Z teurastaja: ddddddddddeeeeeeeeeeeeeeaaaaaaaaaaaadddddddddddddddd
2015-06-07T04:45:21Z teurastaja: and no this is not hexadecimal
2015-06-07T04:46:37Z teurastaja laughing uncontrollably like a nerd
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2015-06-07T04:53:33Z teurastaja: yawn
2015-06-07T04:54:12Z teurastaja: rudybot: do you still exist?
2015-06-07T04:54:13Z rudybot: teurastaja: Given the existance of dig and nslookup, the probability that such a library doesn't exist is close to 0, and in the case no such a library exist, the work involved in writing one is close to 0 too!
2015-06-07T04:54:48Z teurastaja: rudybot: help
2015-06-07T04:54:48Z rudybot: teurastaja: bug <more> ..., fom <more> ..., hopeless <more> ..., falsy <more> ..., bad-eval <more> ..., later "tell" <recipient> <message> ..., help [<what>], version, quote, source, url, seen <nick> <more> ..., where's <nick> <more> ..., uptime, t8 <from> <to> <text> ..., snotback, botsnack, init [<lang>], eval <expr> ..., give <to> <expr> ..., apropos <str> ..., desc <id>, doc <id>
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2015-06-07T04:56:28Z teurastaja: rudybot: eval ((lambda (sexy) (sexy sexy)) (lambda (horny) (horny horny)))
2015-06-07T04:56:29Z rudybot: teurastaja: your sandbox is ready
2015-06-07T04:56:39Z rudybot: teurastaja: error: with-limit: out of time
2015-06-07T04:59:30Z pjb- quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2015-06-07T04:59:58Z teurastaja: rudybot: eval (iota +inf.0)
2015-06-07T04:59:58Z rudybot: teurastaja: error: iota: undefined; <NEWLINE>  cannot reference an identifier before its definition <NEWLINE>   in module: 'program
2015-06-07T05:00:29Z teurastaja: rudybot: eval (make-list +inf.0)
2015-06-07T05:00:29Z rudybot: teurastaja: error: make-list: arity mismatch; <NEWLINE>  the expected number of arguments does not match the given number <NEWLINE>   expected: 2 <NEWLINE>   given: 1 <NEWLINE>   arguments...: <NEWLINE>    +inf.0
2015-06-07T05:03:30Z teurastaja: rudybot: eval (let f () (display "teeeeeeeeeeessssssssssssssssssssssssssssssstttttttttttttttt\n") (f))
2015-06-07T05:04:00Z rudybot: teurastaja: error: with-limit: out of time
2015-06-07T05:04:12Z teurastaja: grrr...
2015-06-07T05:04:32Z teurastaja: rudybot: do you like siri?
2015-06-07T05:04:33Z rudybot: teurastaja: siri doesn't intrude afaik
2015-06-07T05:05:06Z teurastaja: rudybot: intrude what?
2015-06-07T05:05:07Z rudybot: teurastaja: siri doesn't intrude afaik
2015-06-07T05:05:20Z teurastaja: rudybot: youre dumb
2015-06-07T05:05:21Z rudybot: teurastaja: it makes your text wibble while youre not using it
2015-06-07T05:05:35Z teurastaja: rudybot: the hell?
2015-06-07T05:05:36Z rudybot: teurastaja: DAMN YOU TO HELL!
2015-06-07T05:05:45Z teurastaja: rudybot: ...
2015-06-07T05:05:45Z rudybot: teurastaja: eh?  Try "rudybot: help".
2015-06-07T05:06:09Z teurastaja: rudybot: rudybot:
2015-06-07T05:06:10Z rudybot: teurastaja: error: rudybot:: undefined; <NEWLINE>  cannot reference an identifier before its definition <NEWLINE>   in module: 'program
2015-06-07T05:06:24Z teurastaja: rudybot: rudybot
2015-06-07T05:06:24Z rudybot: teurastaja: error: rudybot: undefined; <NEWLINE>  cannot reference an identifier before its definition <NEWLINE>   in module: 'program
2015-06-07T05:06:29Z teurastaja: rudybot: :
2015-06-07T05:06:29Z rudybot: teurastaja: error: :: undefined; <NEWLINE>  cannot reference an identifier before its definition <NEWLINE>   in module: 'program
2015-06-07T05:07:04Z teurastaja: rudybot: eval (exit)
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2015-06-07T05:07:14Z teurastaja: hahaha!!!!
2015-06-07T05:07:20Z teurastaja: yay!
2015-06-07T05:07:24Z teurastaja: found a bug
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2015-06-07T05:08:02Z teurastaja: rudybot: eval (exit)
2015-06-07T05:08:03Z rudybot: teurastaja: your sandbox is ready
2015-06-07T05:08:03Z rudybot: teurastaja: error: evaluator: terminated (exited)
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2015-06-07T05:11:01Z teurastaja: rudybot: eval (exit)
2015-06-07T05:11:02Z rudybot: teurastaja: your sandbox is ready
2015-06-07T05:11:02Z rudybot: teurastaja: error: evaluator: terminated (exited)
2015-06-07T05:11:22Z teurastaja: rudybot: eval (display "test")
2015-06-07T05:11:22Z rudybot: teurastaja: your sandbox is ready
2015-06-07T05:11:23Z rudybot: teurastaja: ; stdout: "test"
2015-06-07T05:11:31Z teurastaja: hmm...
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2015-06-07T05:14:11Z teurastaja: why is everybody so quiet?
2015-06-07T05:14:18Z teurastaja: (exit)
2015-06-07T05:14:29Z teurastaja: oops euh.... /quit
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2015-06-07T05:45:46Z 
2015-06-07T05:45:46Z names: ccl-logbot GGMethos rudybot duud` c74d j4cknewt ArneBab_ githogori pjb emma aap_ EnergyCoffee wbooze dmiles_afk Fare vraid pygospa yrdz rewzn_ psy_ ggherdov scoofy strmpnk Neet z0d oldskirt niklasl MikOo cmhobbs Khisanth joneshf-laptop yasha9 BossKonaSegwaY teiresias bjz cmatei stasku agumonkey kwmiebach cojy_ superjudge ec dualbus weinholt eMBee synthmeat jkraemer_ mach kvda Tbone139 cross ronh- carc _0x5eb_ lloda leppie acarrico fds gf3 jcloud
2015-06-07T05:45:46Z names: m1dnight_ r0kc4t fikusz jyc dytrivedi samth greghendershott araujo jewel_ stux|work joast tm512 renopt nowhere_man nisstyre benaiah nitrix chishiki saul pecg DerGuteMoritz ohama petercommand gnomon ft dsp__ Razz stamourv antoszka fgudin akkad clog cdidd mikeyhc mark_weaver peterhil ByronJohnson Natch shardz xfz cky XTL ski juanfra taylanub mario-goulart FracV ada2358 tsumetai yosafbridge Riviera diginet egrep asumu fizzie rotty CcxCZ Kruppe dxtr zacts
2015-06-07T05:45:46Z names: cibs NaNDude hive-mind pflanze twem2 cjh` copec LeoNerd pchrist evhan turbofail tessier jrslepak low-profile ecraven tristero fionnan haroldwu samw3 wasamasa dsp Cheery Saeren mrowe_away fadein haasn kephra dan64 balkamos klutometis kbtr_ foof ec\ henrytill SirDayBat ineiros ozzloy vikraman Gianormagantrous mlaine dpk choas eagleflo ivan\ FireFly cantstanya amoe SHODAN b4283 vifino Kryo tmh_ chazu gabot zbigniew averell micro^_ Blkt defanor abbe duncanm
2015-06-07T05:45:46Z names: aking sad0ur finnrobi_
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2015-06-07T07:12:26Z kephra: btw, what kind of Scheme and sandbox does rubybot use?
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2015-06-07T07:40:06Z kephra: i wonder if there is an r6rs or r7rs offering a good sandbox?
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2015-06-07T10:26:48Z taylanub: kephra: rudybot is based on Racket but I don't remember where the sources are
2015-06-07T10:26:50Z taylanub: rudybot: source?
2015-06-07T10:26:51Z rudybot: taylanub: is the source somewhere around?
2015-06-07T10:26:57Z taylanub: rudybot: you tell me :P
2015-06-07T10:26:58Z rudybot: taylanub: so he'll tell me to just use a new one
2015-06-07T10:27:02Z taylanub: rudybot: source
2015-06-07T10:27:03Z rudybot: taylanub: git clone git://github.com/offby1/rudybot.git
2015-06-07T10:27:05Z taylanub: aha
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2015-06-07T10:34:08Z kephra: *thanks*
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2015-06-08T09:07:34Z kephra curses - I hoped I could implement error, raise, with-exception-handler just in lexical environment - this works for the simple test cases of srfi - but makes no sense in RL - so ... step back ... code again as continuations
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2015-06-08T09:15:51Z kephra curses even more - I fear I need dynamic-wind ...
2015-06-08T09:16:26Z kephra: .. to work for both call-ec and call-cc
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2015-06-08T10:51:55Z kephra: http://kephra.de/o3proto/veritas.html <- I've implemented a catch-exception as an intermediate solution
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2015-06-08T11:05:49Z kephra: its not yet srfi 34 - but I at least have a workable error handling - that can distinguish between various reasons - see html code above
2015-06-08T11:06:22Z kephra: to trigger a reason, e.g. use NoScript and forbid o3db.com
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2015-06-08T14:52:04Z vanila: what's a simple total order on s-exps (just nil, atoms, and cons)
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2015-06-08T14:58:30Z ijp: shouldn't be hard to design one. how about nil < atoms < cons. atoms lexicographically by symbol name. conses also lexicographically.
2015-06-08T14:59:15Z taylanub: .oO( isn't nil an atom too? )
2015-06-08T14:59:52Z taylanub: wait, we're using "atom" as a synonym to "symbol" now?  what is this, 1960? :P
2015-06-08T15:00:32Z ijp: I'm using it to mean symbol in the absence of more information
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2015-06-08T19:53:13Z teurastaja: how do i export/import record types in r7rs?
2015-06-08T19:54:13Z teurastaja: i dont understand how i could even export any record type, meaning my whole program would be constrained to a unique module
2015-06-08T19:54:24Z teurastaja: or "library"
2015-06-08T19:55:21Z teurastaja: i have this record type to export with all its setters and accessors
2015-06-08T19:55:25Z teurastaja: (define-record-type <node>
2015-06-08T19:55:26Z teurastaja:   (node h l u i j k r d s) #f
2015-06-08T19:55:28Z teurastaja:   (h header set-header!) (l left set-left!)
2015-06-08T19:55:29Z teurastaja:   (u up set-up!) (i ival) (j jval) (k kval)
2015-06-08T19:55:31Z teurastaja:   (r right set-right!) (d down set-down!)
2015-06-08T19:55:32Z teurastaja:   (s size set-size!))
2015-06-08T19:55:39Z vanila: you just export every symbol I think?
2015-06-08T19:56:27Z teurastaja: in gauche, record-types are special classes of objects. will it scream at me?
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2015-06-08T19:59:15Z taylanub: teurastaja: in R7RS, you simply export the procedures that you defined via the `define-record-type' syntax, since it doesn't do anything more than to define procedures.
2015-06-08T19:59:45Z teurastaja: also, it seems very tedious to export 16 symbols for just 1 record-type....
2015-06-08T20:00:18Z vanila: yes its tedious
2015-06-08T20:00:25Z teurastaja: this should be pointed out to the commitee
2015-06-08T20:00:26Z vanila: i think R7RS can use some improvement
2015-06-08T20:00:48Z taylanub: R7RS has 99 problems but I don't think this is one :P
2015-06-08T20:00:58Z teurastaja: yes it can use some improvement but people should adopt it first
2015-06-08T20:01:06Z vanila: i hope you are taking notes on the probelms of R7RS+?
2015-06-08T20:01:10Z vanila: because id like to read it
2015-06-08T20:01:12Z teurastaja: so its the hundredth?
2015-06-08T20:01:14Z vanila: i have a few of my own
2015-06-08T20:01:39Z teurastaja: no im not. ive never done this
2015-06-08T20:02:12Z teurastaja: do i get my name on a bugtracker list or something for that? might be useful for a cv
2015-06-08T20:02:21Z vanila: no
2015-06-08T20:02:24Z teurastaja: damn...
2015-06-08T20:02:40Z teurastaja: ok well where do i list that bug?
2015-06-08T20:03:23Z teurastaja: and where do i kick the commitees ass to stop picking their noses for years and years?
2015-06-08T20:03:55Z teurastaja: its ridiculous, sorry, had to expulse that bit of anger here
2015-06-08T20:04:09Z teurastaja: what would r7rs-large look like?
2015-06-08T20:04:11Z taylanub: I know you're joking but to make it extra clear, this is essentially volunteer work
2015-06-08T20:04:58Z teurastaja: volunteer yes, but for work on linux, we actually get an official account or at least our names on the bug report
2015-06-08T20:05:33Z taylanub: if you nontrivially contribute to the RnRS process, your name will be on the Acknowledgements of the document.
2015-06-08T20:05:56Z taylanub: I don't know of a bug tracking system
2015-06-08T20:06:00Z teurastaja: its the least an open source community should do: acknowledge its contributors. really? what can i do?
2015-06-08T20:06:02Z taylanub: if you write or contribute to an SRFI, likewise
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2015-06-08T20:06:30Z taylanub: R7RS-small was finished a while ago, with work being done on the mailing list
2015-06-08T20:06:36Z teurastaja: what SRFI should i write?
2015-06-08T20:06:45Z taylanub: there is a working-group-2 ML for R7RS-large now
2015-06-08T20:07:12Z taylanub: https://groups.google.com/forum/#!forum/scheme-reports-wg2
2015-06-08T20:07:21Z vanila: what the fukc are you angry about
2015-06-08T20:07:38Z vanila: make a better spec yourself
2015-06-08T20:09:25Z teurastaja: just angry that ill probably never see r7rs done in my life and im 25
2015-06-08T20:09:45Z taylanub: teurastaja: I'm having a hard time taking you serious with that attitude but if you're serious then read the R6RS, R7RS-small, the Working Group 2 stuff here <http://trac.sacrideo.us/wg/wiki>, etc., then see if you have a good idea on how to improve the state of affairs
2015-06-08T20:10:06Z teurastaja: been watching the process since its beginnings
2015-06-08T20:12:08Z teurastaja: im not that angry. what data structures do we need done that no one is already working on?
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2015-06-08T20:12:48Z teurastaja: gotta stir things up ourselves sometimes....
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2015-06-08T20:15:37Z teurastaja: any suggestions?
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2015-06-08T20:20:16Z teurastaja: is an SRFI allowed to use other SRFIs?
2015-06-08T20:21:14Z Riastradh: No.  Since the emancipation of SRFIs, strict social equality is guaranteed for all of them.
2015-06-08T20:21:46Z Riastradh: Please refer any SRFI use of SRFIs to the Committee on Public Equality for reeducation.
2015-06-08T20:22:10Z teurastaja: not even srfi-1?
2015-06-08T20:22:51Z teurastaja: i think srfi-1 should be in r7rs. its too useful
2015-06-08T20:23:11Z teurastaja: are there any crypto srfis?
2015-06-08T20:23:48Z Riastradh: Nope.  Nobody does crypto in Scheme seriously to my knowledge.
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2015-06-08T20:25:46Z teurastaja: how many crypto algos would a minimal srfi need?
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2015-06-08T20:26:28Z Riastradh: Need for what, precisely?
2015-06-08T20:27:03Z teurastaja: well, i bet just implementing base64 doesnt make it for an srfi?
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2015-06-08T20:29:02Z Riastradh: (a) In what way is base64 crypto?  (b) What is it you're trying to accomplish, more broadly?
2015-06-08T20:29:39Z teurastaja: i dont know... just pondering on what could be done]
2015-06-08T20:29:40Z Riastradh: (Not saying doing crypto in Scheme is wrong: just probing what you have in mind, since I haven't thought about it and I suspect you have.)
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2015-06-08T20:30:15Z teurastaja: well... scheme has no crypto except some specific implementations. its just an idea
2015-06-08T20:30:15Z Riastradh: For example, one plausible thing one might do as a SRFI is to translate the NaCl API <http://nacl.cr.yp.to/> into Scheme.
2015-06-08T20:30:42Z Riastradh: This would make it relatively easy (or easier) to design new applications in Scheme that use the internet responsibly.
2015-06-08T20:30:55Z teurastaja: im not so good in python
2015-06-08T20:31:03Z Riastradh: But that won't help you to, e.g., write a mailer in Scheme that handles OpenPGP messages.
2015-06-08T20:31:27Z Riastradh: Python?  NaCl is primarily a C library, with wrappers in C++ and Python (and many other languages now).
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2015-06-08T20:34:08Z teurastaja: is srfi-1 cryptographically safe?
2015-06-08T20:34:13Z teurastaja: oops
2015-06-08T20:34:16Z teurastaja: srfi-27
2015-06-08T20:34:19Z teurastaja: not 1
2015-06-08T20:34:21Z Riastradh: No.
2015-06-08T20:34:31Z Riastradh: Also not very well-conceived even for non-cryptographic purposes.
2015-06-08T20:34:51Z teurastaja: alright
2015-06-08T20:35:20Z teurastaja: its a less intensive job than that salt library
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2015-06-08T20:36:16Z Riastradh: Yes.  The first thing would be a procedure that returns, or fills, an octet vector of a prescribed length with uniformly randomly chosen data from an unpredictable source, with advice to implementors to use /dev/urandom on Unix.
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2015-06-08T20:36:53Z teurastaja: so which one of the srfis on hash tables is the best?
2015-06-08T20:37:14Z teurastaja: and i wouldnt be allowed to use octet vector srfi?
2015-06-08T20:37:37Z Riastradh: Haven't paid attention.  Note hash tables are practically always no good for programs that talk to the internet responsibly: they tend to invite algorithmic complexity attacks.
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2015-06-08T20:38:48Z teurastaja: yes but we need to start somewhere...
2015-06-08T20:39:34Z Riastradh: Yes, you can make cross-references between SRFIs.  My comment about reeducation by the Committee on Public Equality was a joke.
2015-06-08T20:39:51Z teurastaja: not funny....
2015-06-08T20:40:00Z vanila: it wsa pretty funny
2015-06-08T20:40:34Z Riastradh: Sounds like we'll have to fill out a 27b/6 to submit my joke to the Committee on Admissible Humour for assessment.
2015-06-08T20:40:42Z teurastaja: if you want to lose a contributor because he thinks its too hard a job it can be funny
2015-06-08T20:41:32Z Riastradh: Sorry it put you off.  I thought it was outlandish enough to be pretty obvious, but evidently I was wrong!
2015-06-08T20:42:52Z teurastaja: i cant read between the lines
2015-06-08T20:42:55Z teurastaja: im not a monad
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2015-06-08T21:06:47Z wasamasa: people can be monads?
2015-06-08T21:06:50Z wasamasa: scary
2015-06-08T21:07:33Z LeoNerd: Only if they are homomorphic
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2015-06-08T21:18:10Z pjb: I prefer homoiconic people.
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2015-06-08T21:21:51Z duud: Concerning the r7rs development process.... There must be a better feedback loop between users and the committee. Currently the communication is based on mailing lists. This is not suitable for tracking bugs, tracking improvement proposals and so on. A conventional bug tracking system would be a much better choice. So that comments, discussions on every particular item are easily comprehensible and are in one place. It's not much work
2015-06-08T21:21:51Z duud: to set this up so this should be considered.
2015-06-08T21:22:19Z wasamasa: you mean like on github?
2015-06-08T21:23:03Z duud: I was thinking about bugzilla but yes something like this.
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2015-06-08T21:23:31Z Riastradh: Isn't it tracked on a Trac instance?
2015-06-08T21:23:33Z wasamasa: well, I doubt this works better
2015-06-08T21:23:41Z wasamasa: see https://github.com/neovim/neovim/issues for an example
2015-06-08T21:24:47Z wasamasa: the benefits of this so far is having a bit nicer UI than a mail client or mailing list archive
2015-06-08T21:28:26Z duud: wasamasa: No, Its traceability that matters. Just try to find all the proposals/improvements on a mailinglist.
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2015-06-08T21:29:59Z wasamasa: yes and?
2015-06-08T21:30:16Z wasamasa: there is no proof of that aiding people in producing code
2015-06-08T21:32:34Z wasamasa: it's tempting to "solve" non-technical problems with technical solutions, but the overall benefit of these has apparently not been enough to nuke mailing lists from the orbit :P
2015-06-08T21:36:43Z duud: yes sure, mailinglist have their benefits. But bugtracking system are a better solution for tracking bugs/improvement proposals.
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2015-06-08T21:39:23Z Riastradh: Is there not a Trac for R7RS issues?
2015-06-08T21:39:29Z Riastradh: There was a couple years ago.
2015-06-08T21:41:56Z duud: Yes there is. But it is not public-writable I think.
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2015-06-08T21:48:39Z taylanub: not sure if there's enough person-power in the committee to deal with that kind of stuff.  and even the existing process on the ML has in part been criticized due to lack of scheme implementation experts (?) present in it.
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2015-06-08T21:50:53Z duud: but even in this situation, you'll get a database of bug/improvement proposals
2015-06-08T21:50:56Z taylanub: (thinking of http://permalink.gmane.org/gmane.lisp.scheme.reports/4019 and http://permalink.gmane.org/gmane.lisp.scheme.reports/4005 )
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2015-06-08T21:51:48Z taylanub: the WG2 ML can be publicly posted to, and if there's a good suggestion then a ticket will likely be opened for it.
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2015-06-08T22:03:10Z teurastaja: well maybe im a bit late for that comment but i am homomorphic...
2015-06-08T22:03:24Z Riastradh: In what category?
2015-06-08T22:03:38Z duud: taylanub: I see now, you're right - it's the lack of person-power.
2015-06-08T22:03:53Z teurastaja: plus, i bind and return
2015-06-08T22:04:08Z teurastaja: the category of humans i guess
2015-06-08T22:04:58Z teurastaja: i bind functionally to the stateful world
2015-06-08T22:05:08Z teurastaja: "realworld"
2015-06-08T22:05:33Z teurastaja: input output
2015-06-08T22:08:12Z teurastaja: would be a natural transformation i guess... but i never combined the IO with Reader.
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2015-06-08T22:10:04Z teurastaja: im not even sure what reader does. probably something like external representations?
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2015-06-08T22:25:11Z duud: Oh, I completely misjudged the situation. It's remarkable that despite the situation there are a few people working on r7rs-large.
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2015-06-08T22:31:57Z kephra: the question is: is the low participation the reason, or the course of low r7rs acceptance
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2015-06-08T22:44:53Z Fare is ashamed of his (non) role in r7rs large
2015-06-08T22:45:37Z duud: Not sure I understand this correctly but it seems it's simply the lack of interest. Really strange, there are so many different scheme implementations and experienced schemers, a lot of complains about r6rs but no interest in improving the standard.
2015-06-08T22:47:48Z ilammy: Because they don't need it. Scheme is cursed with the title of the most unportable programming language in the world. Those how want just go and make their own Racket or something.
2015-06-08T22:49:41Z duud: This is not an efficient way
2015-06-08T22:49:55Z ddp: i once joked that the only people who make it through SICP go on to write their own scheme implementation…
2015-06-08T22:50:12Z ddp: this is otherwise known as the curse of lisp
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2015-06-08T22:53:26Z ilammy: But that's the way it is.
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2015-06-08T22:54:15Z ilammy: I don't really see why do people need some another Common Scheme with hundreds of libraries.
2015-06-08T22:54:55Z ilammy: We already have Common Lisp and Racket for those who do need batteries bundled with parenthesis.
2015-06-08T22:55:54Z ilammy: And Scheme is somewhat comfortably placed into the niche of educational, research, and hobby language.
2015-06-08T22:57:03Z ilammy: No surprise that some people oppress attempts to turn their small, neat, clean, and feasible to implement language into another hairy ball of mud.
2015-06-08T22:58:03Z ilammy: Yet, at the same time they are depressed that the language is _so_ clean that there is not many things to add to it.
2015-06-08T22:59:27Z Riastradh: This is the product of a greater concern with muddiness of diamonds than with solving real problems.
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2015-06-08T23:03:26Z ilammy: Yep. Nobody is stopping people from writing libraries. But libraries don't grow on trees. Yet everybody seems to think that everything will settle once we have a new standard, that one which is *done right*.
2015-06-08T23:04:42Z Fare: will r7rs have syntax-case or some other non-trivial macro system?
2015-06-08T23:04:47Z Fare: speaking of batteries included...
2015-06-08T23:05:23Z duud: Yes it's because of the fact that libraries don't grow on trees why people should work on better portability
2015-06-08T23:06:04Z Fare: a standard is about the foundational things that you can't build on top (and preserve interoperability).
2015-06-08T23:06:25Z Riastradh: I mean solving problems, with writing Scheme programs as subproblems, which might involve writing reusable Scheme libraries as subsubproblems.
2015-06-08T23:09:18Z ilammy: Fare: it may, I see it in the list of 'we'll include it once we have consent'.
2015-06-08T23:11:11Z Fare: so if one can implement syntax-case somehow in r7rs, but doing so doesn't interoperate well with the module system, then it's not as useful.
2015-06-08T23:11:58Z ijp: pretty sure they voted against syntax-case
2015-06-08T23:12:14Z ijp: in favour of ex-renaming
2015-06-08T23:13:25Z Fare: syntax-case would probably be more interoperable with e.g. chez, racket, gambit, etc., but ex-renaming would be better than nothing.
2015-06-08T23:13:37Z Fare: who so far uses ex-renaming?
2015-06-08T23:13:48Z ijp: chicken
2015-06-08T23:14:20Z ilammy: also chibi
2015-06-08T23:14:31Z ijp: anyway, I have no intention of ever writing r7rs after draft 4
2015-06-08T23:15:01Z ilammy: why so? (just curious)
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2015-06-08T23:15:35Z ijp: because that was the point when I realised most of the committee didn't know what they were doing
2015-06-08T23:17:33Z ijp: if they are going to break all my code, the least they could do is design a useful exception system
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2015-06-08T23:26:59Z duud: The r7rs standard is a community effort. Most of the community doesn't like the r7rs standard.
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2015-06-09T07:33:21Z taylanub: huh, voted against syntax-case in favor of renaming?  that sounds inane, syntax-case is great and in R6RS...
2015-06-09T07:33:54Z taylanub: that being said, I would *love* to have syntax-parse instead, which one could say is a superset of syntax-case
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2015-06-09T10:37:33Z kephra: *oh* I missed ijp - I wonder what he calls a useful exception system?
2015-06-09T10:40:22Z kephra: http://kephra.de/o3proto/dpaste.html#2WGGV97 <- thats my current catch-exception code ... missing dynamic-wind to protect against call-cc call-ec
2015-06-09T10:41:13Z kephra: one can therefore not nest it *ouch*
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2015-06-09T13:25:28Z kephra: ijp, welcome back! I have a question for you:  the least they could do is design a useful exception system - how would that look like ;-)
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2015-06-09T13:39:36Z ijp: well, as I recall, the plan was srfi 34, but without a condition system
2015-06-09T13:39:54Z ijp: you got three accessors corresponding to the relevant arguments to error
2015-06-09T13:40:44Z ijp: so, not like that
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2015-06-09T13:42:37Z ijp: creating condition objects and saying what exceptions are thrown when, that's what a useful exception system looks like
2015-06-09T13:44:22Z ijp: maybe they fixed this, I don't know, I don't care. It shouldn't have been an afterthought.
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2015-06-09T13:48:31Z ijp: but I wouldn't hold my breath on the middle bit, because the whole basis of thought is "no implementation left behind"
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2015-06-09T14:02:14Z duud: Here is a quote from the last post on the scheme.reports.wg2-mailinglist: Subject "R6RS standard libraries for R7RS systems" "(r6rs io ports) is worth doing for the same reason (srfi 69) is worth doing: Despite its many faults, there are programs and libraries that use (rnrs io ports). We want to make the process of upgrading R6RS libraries and programs to R7RS as simple as possible."
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2015-06-09T14:44:41Z asumu: taylanub: syntax-parse is indeed nice, but it's really a frontend library and not its own macro system per se. What could be useful for standards people is to look at the new scope-set expansion: http://www.cs.utah.edu/~mflatt/scope-sets-5/index.html
2015-06-09T14:45:30Z asumu: Or to specify hygiene mathematically like http://michaeldadams.org/papers/hygiene/hygiene-2015-popl-authors-copy.pdf recently did perhaps.
2015-06-09T14:46:20Z ijp: taylanub: stis did syntax-parse for guile, but it doesn't get much love
2015-06-09T14:47:17Z ijp: probably get more if he pushed to get it in guile proper
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2015-06-09T14:49:00Z foof: syntax-case and syntactic-closures are competing systems, and nobody implements both
2015-06-09T14:49:10Z foof: both can trivially implement explicit renaming
2015-06-09T14:49:24Z foof: explicit renaming can do 99% of what you want with either system
2015-06-09T14:49:42Z foof: you'd have to be stupid not to standardize explicit renaming
2015-06-09T14:52:21Z foof: (and by all means, implement either you want, and explore newer variants, we're talking about standardizing portable code _right_now_)
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2015-06-09T14:56:35Z foof: and I don't know why people would want ObjectOrientedExceptions instead of nice functional predicates as proposed, but am less interested in that debate
2015-06-09T15:16:37Z LeoNerd: java
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2015-06-09T15:21:44Z kephra: ijp, http://kephra.de/o3proto/dpaste.html#2E9KZ8Z <- the question is, if this is half way sane, ijp
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2015-06-09T15:22:56Z kephra: http://kephra.de/o3proto/dpaste.html#2ZHXKW3 <- this is a few minutes old ... my current implementation of dynamic-wind, wrapper around escape and current continuations and escape-exception
2015-06-09T15:25:36Z kephra: *oups* ... and its full of bugs ;-)
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2015-06-09T15:26:21Z taylanub: eh, ok, wasn't aware that syntactic-closures had popularity
2015-06-09T15:27:31Z taylanub: guess I'll look forward to just writing a glue library that implements syntax-parse in whatever system is available, then just use that >_<
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2015-06-09T15:29:13Z kephra: http://kephra.de/o3proto/dpaste.html#1XGFDX5 <- this code is better ;-)
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2015-06-09T15:35:30Z kephra: ijp, some differences to srfi 23/34 - I gave raise the signature arity >= 1, as error has the form "reason string" [args*] and the first argument of raise is converted to a string, the remaining passed to error - error itself shows an alert of current and last error
2015-06-09T15:36:22Z kephra: you might try to remove the quote before 'inf to see what happens with http://kephra.de/o3proto/dpaste.html#2E9KZ8Z if exceptions fail
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2015-06-09T20:03:50Z teurastaja: cant find any channel where people seem to know about closures in C. not even ##C
2015-06-09T20:04:09Z teurastaja: how does one implement them in C?
2015-06-09T20:04:26Z Riastradh: teurastaja: Pass a function pointer and a void * environment pointer.
2015-06-09T20:04:39Z teurastaja: example?
2015-06-09T20:05:38Z Riastradh: man pthread_create
2015-06-09T20:05:42Z fds: Have you seen this article http://www.hokstad.com/how-to-implement-closures ?
2015-06-09T20:06:05Z turbofail: or this: http://matt.might.net/articles/compiling-scheme-to-c/
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2015-06-09T20:08:57Z teurastaja: thanks! never used pthreads. what does that eat in the winter?
2015-06-09T20:09:53Z Riastradh: That it's pthreads doesn't really matter; point is you pass in a pointer to a function f that takes a void *, and you pass in a void *env, and eventually it will call f(env).
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2015-06-09T20:10:27Z turbofail: yeah there are actually a lot of C API's where you pass in a callback and a "context" pointer
2015-06-09T20:10:51Z turbofail: where that context is basically acting like a closure's environment
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2015-06-10T08:54:49Z bla2: how to call back when use continuation ?
2015-06-10T08:55:56Z bla2: like a function contains call/cc, and in another function call this function, and how to return to another function ?
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2015-06-10T09:03:23Z pjb: bla2: It's not clear what you're asking.
2015-06-10T09:03:33Z pjb: are you asking about continuations, or callbacks?
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2015-06-10T09:23:22Z taylanub: bla2: when you call a procedure that represents a continuation captured via call/cc, it doesn't return.  this is one of the main points of critique of call/cc, and "delimited continuations" don't have this problem.
2015-06-10T09:23:46Z taylanub: (call/cc (lambda (cont) ... (cont) (display "foo!\n")))  ;foo will never be displayed
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2015-06-10T09:25:19Z taylanub: (reset ... (shift (lambda (delim-cont) ... (delim-cont) (display "foo!\n"))) ...) ;foo will be displayed
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2015-06-10T09:52:43Z bla2: (define (ll) (l2)) error? why ?
2015-06-10T09:53:10Z bla2: it's a function define, not call, why to eval l2?
2015-06-10T09:53:47Z bla2: (define (l1) (call/cc (lambda (k) 1)) (display 1) (l2))
2015-06-10T09:54:06Z bla2: (define (l2) (call/cc (lambda (k) 0)) (display 0) (l1))
2015-06-10T09:54:11Z bla2: (l1)
2015-06-10T09:56:18Z bla2: er... it have no value... it's a bad way to describe how to make the continuation return to the function who call it
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2015-06-10T09:58:01Z bla2: (+ 1 1) (call/cc ...) (+ 1 2) ,now I'd like when (call/cc...) is done, it can run (+ 1 2)
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2015-06-10T11:32:35Z attichacker: join guile
2015-06-10T11:32:44Z attichacker: whoops :)
2015-06-10T11:33:12Z attichacker: Was meant to be a irc command
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2015-06-10T11:43:39Z python476: hi peeps
2015-06-10T11:43:54Z python476: I'm having issues with the (case ...) form
2015-06-10T11:46:00Z python476 pastebinnin in progress
2015-06-10T11:49:33Z python476: http://pastebin.com/xN7vyv7q
2015-06-10T11:50:28Z python476: basically I'd like to compare symbols, but using (let ((var sym)) (case var ((sym) ...) ... (else ...)) always evaluates the else branch
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2015-06-10T11:54:23Z taylanub: python476: 'case' automatically quotes the match-expressions
2015-06-10T11:54:46Z taylanub: (case x ((y) ...)) = (if (eqv? x 'y) ...)
2015-06-10T11:55:03Z python476: taylanub: I assumed something like this, but I fail to find how to resolve my comparison issue
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2015-06-10T11:56:08Z taylanub: python476: (cond ((eqv? x y) ...) ((eqv? x z) ...))  a bit repetitive but there's no standard syntax to make this less repetitive
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2015-06-10T11:57:09Z python476: oh right, I think just wrote case instead of cond and kept hitting the wall
2015-06-10T11:58:34Z taylanub: (well, one possibility would be (assv x `((,y . ,...) (,z . ,...))) but that's pretty "weird")
2015-06-10T11:59:08Z taylanub: could write a macro if your code contains such cond/eqv? pattern a lot
2015-06-10T12:00:03Z taylanub: (syntax-rules () ((evaling-case obj (match-obj body ...) ...) (cond ((eqv? obj match-obj) body ...) ...)))
2015-06-10T12:00:24Z taylanub: or something like that
2015-06-10T12:01:07Z python476: Agreed, I'm not there yet with scheme macros
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2015-06-10T17:49:06Z tmtwd: Silly question:
2015-06-10T17:49:08Z tmtwd: (if record
2015-06-10T17:49:08Z tmtwd:         (cdr record)
2015-06-10T17:49:08Z tmtwd:         false)
2015-06-10T17:49:33Z tmtwd: this is the same as checking if (= record true)?
2015-06-10T17:49:39Z tmtwd: so
2015-06-10T17:49:49Z tmtwd: (if (= record true)
2015-06-10T17:49:49Z ijp: not =, eqv?
2015-06-10T17:49:55Z ijp: = is for numbers only
2015-06-10T17:50:03Z tmtwd: yup youre right
2015-06-10T17:50:09Z tmtwd: I meant eq?
2015-06-10T17:50:21Z tmtwd: so (if (eq? record true)
2015-06-10T17:50:32Z ijp: tmtwd: anyway, what it really checks is (not (eqv? record false))
2015-06-10T17:50:45Z ijp: rudybot: (if (cons 1 2) 'yes 'no)
2015-06-10T17:50:46Z rudybot: ijp: your sandbox is ready
2015-06-10T17:50:46Z rudybot: ijp: ; Value: 'yes
2015-06-10T17:51:28Z tmtwd: so (if (not (eqv? record false) (cdr record) false)
2015-06-10T17:51:42Z ijp: every object that isn't #f is considered true by scheme
2015-06-10T17:51:50Z tmtwd: ah okay
2015-06-10T17:52:28Z tmtwd: but, nil is considered #f?
2015-06-10T17:52:34Z tmtwd: and empty
2015-06-10T17:52:35Z tmtwd: ?
2015-06-10T17:53:13Z ijp: rudybot: (if '() 'yes 'no)
2015-06-10T17:53:14Z rudybot: ijp: ; Value: 'yes
2015-06-10T17:53:39Z ijp: *every* object except  #f is true
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2015-06-10T17:54:21Z ijp: and unlike common lisp, the empty list is not the same as the false value
2015-06-10T17:54:58Z tmtwd: interesting
2015-06-10T17:55:06Z tmtwd: okay thanks for your help
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2015-06-10T17:59:01Z rbryan: What exactly is the difference between =, eq?, equal?, et. al.?
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2015-06-10T18:00:45Z davexunit: rbryan: = is for numbers
2015-06-10T18:01:08Z davexunit: eq? tests identity. "are these the same reference?"
2015-06-10T18:01:17Z ijp: cough *eqv?*
2015-06-10T18:01:45Z davexunit: ?
2015-06-10T18:01:59Z rbryan: So it checks to see if they're pointers to the same place in memory?
2015-06-10T18:02:13Z davexunit: I thought so, anyway.  ijp?
2015-06-10T18:02:45Z ijp: I am probably the only person on here that cares about the distinction between the two anyway
2015-06-10T18:03:00Z davexunit: ah, numbers and characters.  yes.
2015-06-10T18:03:30Z davexunit: rbryan: the first sentence of the eq? docs says: Return `#t' if X and Y are the same object, except for numbers and characters.
2015-06-10T18:03:52Z davexunit: eqv? does something similar, but for numbers and characters.
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2015-06-10T18:24:51Z rbryan: So if I had two lists does it check whether they're stored in the same place?
2015-06-10T18:25:13Z ilammy: Yep
2015-06-10T18:25:26Z rbryan: I'm surprised there isn't one that tests between any pair of literals.
2015-06-10T18:26:01Z ilammy: what exactly should it test?..
2015-06-10T18:26:41Z rbryan: In c (sorry) I could just say something like 5 == 'a'
2015-06-10T18:26:50Z rbryan: And get false.
2015-06-10T18:27:31Z wasamasa: equal?
2015-06-10T18:27:43Z ilammy: well, if you say (eq? 5 #\a), (eqv? 5 #\a) and (equal? 5 #\a) in Lisp, you will still get false
2015-06-10T18:28:05Z rbryan: But say I had 80 or whatever the ascii A really is.
2015-06-10T18:28:45Z ilammy: I guess that's a different issue, due to C being weakly typed while Scheme is strongly typed
2015-06-10T18:28:59Z rbryan: Ah.
2015-06-10T18:29:02Z rbryan: Yeah.
2015-06-10T18:29:15Z rbryan: Hadn't thought about that. Can't go between the two.
2015-06-10T18:30:06Z rbryan: So how does eqv? differ from eq?
2015-06-10T18:30:27Z rbryan: Sorry for all the questions, I'd just really like to get these concepts clearly.
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2015-06-10T18:31:23Z ilammy: It has special cases for numbers so that it works like = for them
2015-06-10T18:32:18Z ilammy: It's because numbers can have different representations (say, fixnums and bignums), and eqv? does additional conversions to check for equality
2015-06-10T18:32:23Z rbryan: Okay, so eq? asks are these two things literally the same thing, not just equivalent.
2015-06-10T18:32:35Z ilammy: Yes, exactly.
2015-06-10T18:32:44Z rbryan: eqv? asks are these literally the same thing but also works with numbers and characters.
2015-06-10T18:32:53Z rbryan: = is just numbers.
2015-06-10T18:33:15Z rbryan: and equals? is a wrapper for all but is less efficient.
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2015-06-10T18:34:31Z ilammy: equal? also checks structural equivalence for lists and vectors while eqv? will just return #f most of the time
2015-06-10T18:35:20Z rbryan: Makes sense. So equal? is just a catchall. It actually does a deep check of equality.
2015-06-10T18:37:15Z wasamasa: a structural check
2015-06-10T18:37:23Z rbryan: structural check?
2015-06-10T18:37:43Z wasamasa: yes, if you're having nested lists, it actually bothers going down and comparing their items against each other
2015-06-10T18:38:13Z rbryan: Yup.
2015-06-10T18:39:06Z rbryan: Structural check makes me think it just matches the structure of the objects.
2015-06-10T18:39:12Z ilammy: and even avoiding infinite loops, in some implementations
2015-06-10T18:39:17Z rbryan: Which would also be neat.
2015-06-10T18:39:27Z rbryan: ilammy, That's nifty.
2015-06-10T18:39:47Z rbryan: I haven't yet put much thought into loopy data structures.
2015-06-10T18:40:03Z ilammy: it's sad that rnrs says nothing about equal? for records
2015-06-10T18:40:15Z wasamasa: "A rule of thumb is that objects are generally equal? if they print the same."
2015-06-10T18:42:54Z ilammy: Yeah, it is, but that's quite the same as "equal? is required to do X"
2015-06-10T18:43:42Z ilammy: I do not undestand how "two record objects are equal? is they have the same type and their fields are equal?" is not an obvious extension
2015-06-10T18:44:27Z ilammy: It's kinda boring for me to write a personal record comparator for every record I use in my unit-tests
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2015-06-10T18:45:56Z rbryan: Does anyone have a good way of easily typing in unicode math characters besides copy-paste?
2015-06-10T18:46:11Z rbryan: preferably for vim. (sorry not emacs)
2015-06-10T18:47:06Z ilammy: Not using any of them, but maybe a gazillion of TeX abbreviations will help?
2015-06-10T18:48:23Z rbryan: ilammy, That was actually exactly what I was thinking. Is there a good plugin for replacing tex-abbreviations with equivalent unicode?
2015-06-10T18:51:24Z rbryan: http://vim.wikia.com/wiki/Using_abbreviations
2015-06-10T18:51:35Z rbryan: Cool. Lots of new characters going in my .vimrc tonight.
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2015-06-10T19:09:50Z taylanub: ilammy: rbryan: eqv? is not like = for numbers.  eqv? is the "real eq?" in that it approximates the question "can I distinguish between these two objects in ANY way at all?", for example some systems have a "negative zero" value and while (= -0.0 +0.0) is true, (eqv? -0.0 +0.0) is false because they can behave different in some numeric calculations
2015-06-10T19:11:20Z taylanub: eq? is the "broken eqv?" which is allowed to be a bit broken (namely, not work on numbers and characters) for sake of performance hacks: it's usually implemented as dead-simple pointer comparison like == in C.  this can't work on numbers and characters because they frequently don't fit in a pointer-sized value, whereas other types' values can be fit directly into a pointer-sized value or are just
2015-06-10T19:11:21Z taylanub: a pointer
2015-06-10T19:13:21Z rbryan: So, suppose somewhere in my program I construct two identical objects. Two lists perhaps '(1 2 3) and '(1 2 3)
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2015-06-10T19:13:43Z rbryan: what would (eq? '(1 2 3) '(1 2 3)) do?
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2015-06-10T19:14:33Z taylanub: eq? is guaranteed to work fine on lists, so that's same as (eqv? '(1 2 3) '(1 2 3))
2015-06-10T19:15:05Z taylanub: however, the result of that is unspecified because an implementation might de-duplicate the quoted list, so the two '(1 2 3)s could be the same list
2015-06-10T19:15:10Z rbryan: So it does a structural equivalence check?
2015-06-10T19:15:14Z taylanub: (eqv? (list 1 2 3) (list 1 2 3)) is guaranteed false
2015-06-10T19:15:39Z taylanub: no, eqv? does no structural equivalence check, although in theory it could if the objects are immutable
2015-06-10T19:16:04Z taylanub: but no implementation would do that because eqv? is expected to be pretty fast, and not recurse into data structures
2015-06-10T19:16:45Z taylanub: so if anything, the implementation's compiler/runtime might be so smart that when there are two immutable data structures with the same contents, the implementation just uses the same object in memory for both conceptual objects
2015-06-10T19:17:05Z rbryan: So, eq? only checks that two lists/structures aren't in the same place?
2015-06-10T19:17:24Z taylanub: it's best to speak of eqv?, and see eq? only as a "somewhat broken eqv?"
2015-06-10T19:17:42Z taylanub: eqv? checks whether two objects are *the* same object
2015-06-10T19:18:37Z rbryan: Okay...
2015-06-10T19:18:40Z rbryan: I think I get it.
2015-06-10T19:19:15Z rbryan: So it says "can I distinguish between these two at all?" and one of the ways it might distinguish is location in memory?
2015-06-10T19:19:35Z rbryan: If it's a literal value then it checks the value.
2015-06-10T19:20:23Z taylanub: one has to understand that there's the machine-level, and there's the abstract level.  what's two different objects in memory might be the same object in abstract terms.  if I have the number 5 somewhere in memory, and again the number 5 somewhere else in memory, then they are still eqv?, because in Scheme there's no way to get the memory address of an object, so for all purposes of the Scheme
2015-06-10T19:20:23Z taylanub: programmer they are considered the same object.
2015-06-10T19:20:43Z rbryan: Yeah.
2015-06-10T19:21:20Z rbryan: It falls back to memory location if it's comparing two lists or structures because it doesn't check whether the values they contain are equal.
2015-06-10T19:21:44Z taylanub: one could say that yeah
2015-06-10T19:22:09Z taylanub: (what *exactly* it does depends on the implementation, but it will usually behave as you say)
2015-06-10T19:22:24Z rbryan: Yeah.
2015-06-10T19:22:52Z rbryan: And eq? is as you said a degenerate form of eqv? that doesn't work on literal values.
2015-06-10T19:23:11Z taylanub: it doesn't work on numbers and characters.  it does work on literal values.
2015-06-10T19:23:44Z rbryan: Could you clarify the difference? that was what numbers and characters were what I intended by literal values.
2015-06-10T19:23:47Z taylanub: (eq? #t #t) is just fine (result is #t).  (eqv? '(1 2 3) '(1 2 3)) and (eq? '(1 2 3) '(1 2 3)) are both unspecified for an unrelated reason that I explained above.
2015-06-10T19:24:21Z rbryan: Yeah, because they're constant lists so the implementation might just only keep one.
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2015-06-10T19:24:30Z taylanub: right
2015-06-10T19:24:59Z taylanub: not sure if quoted values are commonly called literals, but e.g. #(1 2 3) is a literal vector, and same applies to that.
2015-06-10T19:25:23Z rbryan: But if you use (list 1 2 3) That's a different matter because it's not a constant list right?
2015-06-10T19:25:35Z rbryan: is #(1 2 3) the same as '(1 2 3)?
2015-06-10T19:25:50Z taylanub: `list' is guaranteed to allocate a new mutable list, so yeah
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2015-06-10T19:26:03Z taylanub: #(1 2 3) is to (vector 1 2 3) what '(1 2 3) is to (list 1 2 3), roughly
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2015-06-10T19:26:21Z taylanub: also, '#(1 2 3) and #(1 2 3) are the same, just like '1 and 1 are the same
2015-06-10T19:26:30Z rbryan: How do vectors and lists differ?
2015-06-10T19:26:34Z taylanub: (some values are "self-quoting", in which case explicitly quoting them makes no difference)
2015-06-10T19:26:41Z rbryan: Structurally?
2015-06-10T19:27:02Z taylanub: lists are made up of pairs aka "cons cells", they're basically linked lists as commonly called in other languages
2015-06-10T19:27:08Z taylanub: singly linked lists to be precise
2015-06-10T19:27:10Z rbryan: Yup.
2015-06-10T19:27:27Z taylanub: (list 1 2 3) = (cons 1 (cons 2 (cons 3 '())))
2015-06-10T19:27:48Z taylanub: '() is the "empty list" aka "null" value, which is a special case.  it's its own data type too, and not a pair.
2015-06-10T19:28:09Z rbryan: Yup.
2015-06-10T19:28:10Z taylanub: so "list" is not really a concrete type in Scheme; a list may be a pair or null.
2015-06-10T19:28:55Z rbryan: Or even a ring right? You can make really weird stuff with it.
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2015-06-10T19:29:45Z rbryan: By setting the cdr of the last element as the list itself.
2015-06-10T19:30:07Z taylanub: the "list" (pseudo-)type is specified as a finite-length chain of pairs ending with '(), in the Scheme standards
2015-06-10T19:30:16Z rbryan: Yup.
2015-06-10T19:30:19Z taylanub: the `list?' predicate also tests for that.  it will return #f on a circular/infinite list
2015-06-10T19:30:43Z rbryan: So then I take it a vector isn't a chain of cons cells?
2015-06-10T19:31:14Z taylanub: a vector is what other languages call an array
2015-06-10T19:33:13Z rbryan: So if I want to make changes or read elements of one I need accessor functions right?
2015-06-10T19:33:48Z rbryan: Are those accessors part of the rnrs standard or are they in an rfi?
2015-06-10T19:38:56Z taylanub: rbryan: WDYM?
2015-06-10T19:39:38Z rbryan: For most implementations do I need to include extra files to use vectors?
2015-06-10T19:40:11Z taylanub: nope, they've been standard for a while and supported everywhere.  (define v (vector 1 2 3))  (vector-set! v 0 'x)  (vector-ref v 0) => x
2015-06-10T19:40:38Z taylanub: see e.g. R5RS (there's an HTML version online)
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2015-06-10T21:20:41Z kephra: rbryan, back to above: #(1 2 3) is (vector 1 2 3) while '(1 2 3) is (quote (1 2 3))
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2015-06-10T21:21:09Z rbryan: Yeah.
2015-06-10T21:21:13Z kephra: and all schemes have a vector functions: http://people.csail.mit.edu/jaffer/r4rs_8.html#SEC58
2015-06-10T21:22:13Z rbryan: I'm using chicken right now. (I don't have a repl on hand or i'd try it) But for some reason I got the impression it wasn't standard and I had to get it in a library.
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2015-06-10T21:24:44Z kephra: rbryan, those are the srfi 43 vector extensions
2015-06-10T21:25:27Z kephra: the idea of Scheme is provide a very small language base - and extensions are discussed in their own track
2015-06-10T21:25:29Z rbryan: I thought I saw some that were srfi 4.
2015-06-10T21:25:45Z rbryan: Maybe I was wrong. I'll give it a try  next time I have a repl handy.
2015-06-10T21:25:52Z Riastradh: What are SRFI 43 vector extensions?
2015-06-10T21:26:00Z kephra: http://srfi.schemers.org/srfi-43/srfi-43.html
2015-06-10T21:26:09Z Riastradh: No, I mean what is the `those' you were referring to?
2015-06-10T21:27:16Z kephra: Riastradh, we started with the question why chicken needs a lib for vectors - my asumption is that chicken already has r5rs vectors - but the lib only loads the srfi-43 slib
2015-06-10T21:29:01Z Riastradh: *poof*
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2015-06-10T21:37:15Z wasamasa: kephra: well, to be fair there's already a few built-ins for general data structure functions
2015-06-10T21:38:04Z wasamasa: kephra: I wouldn't be surprised if they also included vectors
2015-06-10T21:38:27Z wasamasa: or hum, maybe not: http://api.call-cc.org/doc/data-structures
2015-06-10T21:38:58Z Kooda: These are additionnal procedures on various data structures.
2015-06-10T21:39:23Z Kooda: CHICKEN has vector support from R5RS and exports the SRFI-43 API in the vector-lib extension.
2015-06-10T21:39:54Z Kooda: http://api.call-cc.org/doc/vector-lib
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2015-06-10T22:19:51Z kephra: wasamasa, you are look at wrong doc - see http://api.call-cc.org/doc/scheme#sec:Vectors
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2015-06-11T02:09:42Z ruste: Is there any r5rs function for applying a function to corresponding elements of a pair of lists and returning a list of results.
2015-06-11T02:09:51Z ruste: Sort of like map but with two lists as input.
2015-06-11T02:10:00Z ruste: s/ts\./ts?/
2015-06-11T02:11:53Z teurastaja: show the input and the output im not sure what you mean by that regular expression
2015-06-11T02:13:08Z ruste: the regex was to correct my lack of a question mark on my question. sorry, habit.
2015-06-11T02:13:51Z ruste: Something like (double-map + '(1 2 3) '(4 5 6))
2015-06-11T02:14:07Z ruste: evaluates to (4 7 9)
2015-06-11T02:14:10Z teurastaja: well i believe it means and occurence or not of the preceding character
2015-06-11T02:14:12Z teurastaja: no?
2015-06-11T02:14:54Z sethalves: i think map does that
2015-06-11T02:14:59Z sethalves: map is your double-map
2015-06-11T02:15:01Z teurastaja: what is double-map? sorry im just a regular user
2015-06-11T02:15:08Z ruste: Not the second bit. It's a substitution. It substitutes "ts." with "ts?"
2015-06-11T02:15:15Z ruste: sethalves, It does!
2015-06-11T02:15:20Z ruste: I wasn't aware.
2015-06-11T02:15:22Z ruste: that's awesome.
2015-06-11T02:15:28Z ruste: Learn something new every day.
2015-06-11T02:15:45Z ruste: scheme is the best.
2015-06-11T02:15:50Z ruste: Always surprising me.
2015-06-11T02:16:15Z ruste: Nice.
2015-06-11T02:16:32Z ruste: I should just start trying stuff that I think would be a good idea next time I want something to be a thing.
2015-06-11T02:16:38Z ruste: teurastaja, Figure out the regex?
2015-06-11T02:17:01Z ruste: double-map was just a name I was using as an example.
2015-06-11T02:17:02Z adu: hi
2015-06-11T02:17:19Z ruste: Turns out (map + list1 list2) works great.
2015-06-11T02:17:31Z ruste: hi adu
2015-06-11T02:17:43Z adu: haskell calls that zip
2015-06-11T02:18:01Z teurastaja: there is a zip i wasnt sure you meant that
2015-06-11T02:18:10Z sethalves: there are no good names for this.  zip and unzip are just as confusing as map and reduce
2015-06-11T02:18:11Z teurastaja: defined in srfi 1
2015-06-11T02:18:31Z ruste: Yeah, I thought I'd seen something like that before.
2015-06-11T02:18:33Z adu: map is universal, haskell is stupid, it doesn't understand N-ary functions
2015-06-11T02:18:57Z adu: zip = binary map, zip3 = ternary map
2015-06-11T02:19:01Z teurastaja: you may view zip like (lambda (apply zip ls)) is a matrix transpose
2015-06-11T02:19:22Z teurastaja: (lambda (ls) (apply zip ls)) is a matrix transpose sorry
2015-06-11T02:20:18Z ruste: What about (map list ls1 ls2 ls3)?
2015-06-11T02:20:27Z adu: ruste: that's zip3
2015-06-11T02:20:42Z ruste: Yup, figured it was equivalent.
2015-06-11T02:21:05Z ruste: It took me a while to get this lisp thing but I think I'm catching on.
2015-06-11T02:21:09Z adu: er, it might be zipWith3
2015-06-11T02:21:28Z adu: anyways, enough about haskell
2015-06-11T02:21:45Z adu: more about scheme
2015-06-11T02:21:51Z teurastaja: haskell is hot]
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2015-06-11T02:22:03Z ruste: scheme is sexy?
2015-06-11T02:22:19Z adu: scheme is totally sexy, but not very portable
2015-06-11T02:22:35Z ruste: Least portable language on the planet :)
2015-06-11T02:22:55Z ruste: To be fair, haskell is no more portable.
2015-06-11T02:23:04Z ruste: It only has one implementation though so you don't notice.
2015-06-11T02:23:07Z ruste: :)
2015-06-11T02:23:13Z teurastaja: what are you talking about i made a very portable r7rs scheme sudoku solver
2015-06-11T02:23:23Z adu: almost every scheme implements the same ternary if, but eq and eqv have about a hundred impls
2015-06-11T02:23:38Z ruste: adu ^^^^^^^^^^^
2015-06-11T02:23:50Z sethalves: r7rs helps a whole lot with portability.
2015-06-11T02:23:56Z adu: r7rs has like 3 impls?
2015-06-11T02:24:04Z ruste: haskell has one.
2015-06-11T02:24:08Z adu: r5rs has like 600 impls?
2015-06-11T02:24:53Z sethalves: r7rs: chibi, chicken, gauche, foment, sagittarius, kawa, some others
2015-06-11T02:25:08Z ruste: owl-lisp
2015-06-11T02:25:10Z ruste: sort of.
2015-06-11T02:25:15Z ruste: I like that one.
2015-06-11T02:25:16Z sethalves: yeah, several sort-ofs
2015-06-11T02:25:23Z adu: but I agree, both library, and define-library help a lot with portability, the fact that the syntax changed names across standard... not so much help
2015-06-11T02:25:23Z sethalves: those I listed are fully usable, though
2015-06-11T02:26:09Z adu: my favorites are racket, guile, and chibi
2015-06-11T02:26:15Z ruste: Scheme also seems to me to lend itself to difficult problems that you only need solved once though.
2015-06-11T02:26:19Z sethalves: eh, that's not the real problem with porting from r6 to r7.  if it's hard, it's generally due to low level macros
2015-06-11T02:26:36Z ruste: So portability isn't always the biggest issue.
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2015-06-11T02:26:49Z teurastaja: i dont use macros in r7rs they thend to fail in gauche
2015-06-11T02:26:58Z teurastaja: *tend
2015-06-11T02:27:41Z teurastaja: they are useful but they have functional equivalents
2015-06-11T02:29:22Z adu: but I also looked specifically for impls that had a library for (match)
2015-06-11T02:30:16Z adu: match is sexy
2015-06-11T02:44:50Z teurastaja: yawn
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2015-06-11T02:50:22Z teurastaja: 39971,39979,39983,39989,40009,40013,40031,40037,40039,40063,40087,40093,40099,40111,40123,40127,40129,40151,40153,40163,40169,40177,40189,40193,40213,40231,40237,40241,40253,40277,40283,40289,40343,40351,40357,40361,40387,40423,40427,40429,40433,40459,40471,40483,40487...
2015-06-11T02:52:21Z teurastaja is desperate for some action!!!!
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2015-06-11T02:53:51Z teurastaja: (display "Goodbye, world!\n")
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2015-06-11T03:42:20Z tmtwd: what is caar?
2015-06-11T03:42:26Z tmtwd: the car of the cdr?
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2015-06-11T03:43:16Z mikeyhc: the car of the car
2015-06-11T03:43:29Z mikeyhc: cadr is the car of the cdr
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2015-06-11T03:43:33Z tmtwd: thanks
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2015-06-11T15:32:42Z phale: how do I append an item to a list? I'm trying to make an inventory for a game
2015-06-11T15:32:55Z phale: I know mutation is a bad practice, but is there anyway to do it
2015-06-11T15:35:27Z pjb: Mutation is not bad per se.  As long as your functions are boundaries preventing external side effects, I would consider using mutation if it gives advantage in simplicity or efficiency of the algorithm.
2015-06-11T15:36:48Z pjb: phale: I would advise you to read 50 pages, the r5rs: http://www.schemers.org/Documents/Standards/R5RS/HTML/
2015-06-11T15:36:59Z phale: ok
2015-06-11T15:37:49Z pjb: This gives you the core of the scheme language.  Of course, then you may want to read the documentation of your implementation since it will provide more libraries and procedures, and also the SRFIs since those libraries define portable utilities.
2015-06-11T15:38:20Z pjb: But if you don't have read at least those 50 pages of r5rs, you will always feel helpless programming in scheme.
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2015-06-11T15:39:20Z phale: well, I don't understand procedures like let
2015-06-11T15:39:24Z phale: I only used it for iteration once
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2015-06-11T15:40:18Z pjb: So you could use append to append an item to a list, but append doesn't mutate the lists; therefore it has to copy all its arguments (but the last).  Therefore it is O(n) in time AND space, with n = total length.  Therefore it is rather bad, notably if you use it in loops (which would make your algorithms automatically O(n²) or worse.
2015-06-11T15:40:29Z pjb: phale: read the r5rs, it's explained there.
2015-06-11T15:40:50Z pjb: phale: of course, you could also read books to learn scheme, such as htdp, but they're much much bigger than the 50 pages of r5rs.
2015-06-11T15:40:58Z phale: I read The Little Schemer
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2015-06-11T15:45:53Z pjb: I read the first edition of "The Little Schemer" (when it was still entitled "The Little Lisper").  It doesn't teach scheme, but more how to program with recursion.  To learn a programming language, you really need to read its specification, which in the case of scheme means r5rs (and soon, r7rs).
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2015-06-11T15:46:08Z phale: i see
2015-06-11T15:46:28Z pjb: Now, when building lists, one would rather use cons, and this would prepend the new elements at the beginning of the list.
2015-06-11T15:46:37Z pjb: (cons new-element list)
2015-06-11T15:46:56Z phale: yea!
2015-06-11T15:47:01Z pjb: You could use equivalently (append (list new-element) list) but this would copy the list we just created by (list new-element).
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2015-06-11T15:47:26Z pjb: To append the new element at the end, you'd do: (append list (list new-element)) and this would be terrible, since this would have to copy the whole list.
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2015-06-11T15:48:48Z pjb: In lisp, there's a function named nconc, which does like append, but instead of copying the lists, it modifies the last cons cell of each list to point to the following list.  So it doesn't need to allocate copies, but it is still O(n) since it still needs to walk the lists.
2015-06-11T15:49:00Z pjb: You could write such a function (as an exercise).
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2015-06-11T15:49:39Z pjb: Inside a procedure, if you need to add elements at the end of a list, one thing you can do is to keep a reference to the last cons cell of the list, and then you can set its cdr in O(1).
2015-06-11T15:50:21Z phale: interesting
2015-06-11T15:50:52Z pjb: But usually, there's no gain (in time), doing that, or cons-ing the new element at the beginning of the list, and at the end of the processing, reversing the list (with a reverse! procedure that does the reversal without allocating a new list, by modifying the conses).
2015-06-11T15:50:57Z Kooda: Isn’t the nconc you’re talking about the same as append! ?
2015-06-11T15:51:24Z pjb: Probably. append! is not in r5rs, and I'm afraid, I don't know the SRFIs.
2015-06-11T15:51:28Z phale: pjb: nconc is scheme
2015-06-11T15:51:30Z phale: isn't*
2015-06-11T15:51:37Z phale: it's pure LISP
2015-06-11T15:51:39Z pjb: Indeed, this is why I said in lisp.
2015-06-11T15:51:42Z phale: okay
2015-06-11T15:51:45Z phale: so what's the equivalent in scheme?
2015-06-11T15:52:20Z Kooda: Oh, I thought it was r5rs
2015-06-11T15:52:27Z pjb: The one you will write, or as Kooda said, you learn about the libraries such as the SRFIs, and find the library where append! is defined, and you find the way you can load and use this library with your impleemntation.
2015-06-11T15:53:01Z Kooda: (indeed that’s in srfi-1, sorry for the mistake)
2015-06-11T15:53:15Z pjb: phale: if you don't have it, have a look at:  How to Design Programs -- An Introduction to Computing and Programming  http://www.htdp.org/2003-09-26/Book/
2015-06-11T15:53:52Z phale: is it any good?
2015-06-11T15:54:01Z pjb: Yes.
2015-06-11T15:54:13Z pjb: To learn scheme programming.
2015-06-11T15:54:27Z pjb: There's also sicp, but it's more a general programming book, than a scheme book.
2015-06-11T15:54:36Z pjb: phale: Structure and Interpretation of Computer Programs  http://mitpress.mit.edu/sicp/full-text/book/book-Z-H-4.html  http://swiss.csail.mit.edu/classes/6.001/abelson-sussman-lectures/
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2015-06-11T17:34:00Z phale: My scheme program that should be outputting a chess board instead outputs an incomplete set of characters.
2015-06-11T17:34:01Z phale: http://codepad.org/zlTBingM
2015-06-11T17:34:10Z phale: not sure what im doing wrong
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2015-06-11T17:46:36Z pflanze: Is there some philosophy on mapping over trees?
2015-06-11T17:47:12Z pflanze: Like, are there names for algorithms that map over children of the tree before passing them to the mapping function versus not, etc.?
2015-06-11T17:47:50Z Riastradh: Mapping over trees is a composite anamorphic synthesis and catamorphic antithesis together forming a hylomorphism.
2015-06-11T17:47:51Z pflanze: Passing context (path up the tree), etc.
2015-06-11T17:47:56Z Riastradh: Oh.
2015-06-11T17:48:07Z Riastradh: That's usually called in-order, pre-order, post-order, &c.
2015-06-11T17:48:41Z pflanze: I'm in the mood of writing a set of such tee mapping functions and would like to give them good names and APIs. Any suggestion where to look?
2015-06-11T17:49:04Z phale: @chess board
2015-06-11T17:49:05Z phale: please
2015-06-11T17:49:34Z Riastradh: pflanze: See <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tree_traversal>.
2015-06-11T17:49:50Z pflanze: Good. Seems I used the wrong google search terms.
2015-06-11T17:51:03Z pflanze: phale, your nesting of cond forms looks funny, probably you messed up the parens.
2015-06-11T17:51:20Z phale: most likely, I don't think I understood the little schemer
2015-06-11T17:51:34Z Riastradh: phale: Suggestion: Write one procedure to draw a single line.  Then write one procedure to draw eight lines.
2015-06-11T17:53:11Z pflanze: Also, tree folds. Seems like things that functional languages, especially lisps, should come with by default. How comes there no srfi?
2015-06-11T17:53:27Z pflanze: Anyway, off reading the wikipedia page.
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2015-06-11T17:53:47Z Riastradh: 'Cos you haven't written it yet.  (But first, step 1: stumble upon an application requiring it.)
2015-06-11T17:54:02Z Riastradh: (Solutions in search of problems never make good standards.)
2015-06-11T17:54:31Z pflanze: Well, lispy macro expansion, for one, might be a user.
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2015-06-11T17:55:10Z pflanze: Or processing html documents, which is why I'm after them right now.
2015-06-11T17:55:15Z Riastradh: No, no -- don't find something that `might be a user'; you must be in the middle of writing an application in which you realize there is a pattern that would be seriously improved by a specific, concrete abstraction.
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2015-06-11T18:03:06Z pflanze: Sorry phale, I was miscounting the parens. (Fallible eye misled by bad indentation.) Anyway, you left too soon.
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2015-06-11T18:10:55Z teurastaja: as promised, my sudoku solver: http://pastebin.com/M1fGkVaD
2015-06-11T18:11:30Z teurastaja: to use on the command line
2015-06-11T18:12:07Z teurastaja: i compiled with gauche (r7rs)
2015-06-11T18:12:38Z teurastaja: so you use like this: gosh -r7 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 ......
2015-06-11T18:12:47Z teurastaja: oops
2015-06-11T18:13:07Z teurastaja: gosh -r7 Samdoku.scm 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 ......
2015-06-11T18:13:50Z teurastaja: however it should work under any r7rs command line interpreter
2015-06-11T18:13:59Z teurastaja: ping?
2015-06-11T18:14:18Z teurastaja: supposed to be very portable
2015-06-11T18:15:05Z teurastaja: i dont even use macros nor multiple values to avoid implementation bugs only lists vectors records and lambdas
2015-06-11T18:15:42Z taylanub: now try writing a less trivial program in standard Scheme :P
2015-06-11T18:16:36Z teurastaja: trivial?? dancing links? you must be kidding
2015-06-11T18:17:10Z taylanub: I guess "triviality" is a very unclear measure
2015-06-11T18:17:55Z taylanub: indeed, try writing a trivial HTTP server .. tough luck, standard Scheme has no TCP/IP >_<
2015-06-11T18:18:05Z teurastaja: theres like only one person in this chatroom who could answer my questions when i was writing it so "trivial"?
2015-06-11T18:18:38Z taylanub: I think you're missing my point
2015-06-11T18:18:45Z teurastaja: even then i was very much on my own
2015-06-11T18:19:19Z teurastaja: you want me to implement TCP/IP stack for r7rs?? i need C or assembly for that
2015-06-11T18:19:30Z taylanub: no, just an application that uses the network
2015-06-11T18:19:50Z teurastaja: theres no standard way
2015-06-11T18:19:56Z taylanub: right, that was my point :)
2015-06-11T18:20:17Z taylanub: the number of "actually useful" standard Scheme programs one can write is very very limited simply because there's basic APIs missing
2015-06-11T18:20:23Z Riastradh: `TCP/IP stack' as in state machine with incoming packets and application requests as inputs, and outgoing packets and responses to applications as actions -- no.  taylanub meant interface to the local operating system's existing TCP/IP stack.
2015-06-11T18:20:37Z taylanub: though there's SRFI-106 now...
2015-06-11T18:21:03Z Riastradh: (To write an internet-facing application responsibly one also needs crypto, and implementing crypto safely in Scheme is generally a non-starter.)
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2015-06-11T18:24:39Z teurastaja: i asked if people would want crypto support but i was answered no
2015-06-11T18:25:03Z teurastaja: we need a descend random number generator first
2015-06-11T18:25:29Z Riastradh: If you're referring to your conversation with me the other week, I don't think what I said was `no, people wouldn't want crypto'.
2015-06-11T18:26:29Z teurastaja: and decide which of the gazilion hashing algorithms to use
2015-06-11T18:27:31Z teurastaja: theres no crypto without a descent random number generator
2015-06-11T18:28:10Z teurastaja: i believe there would need a system interface to gather enough entropy
2015-06-11T18:28:20Z teurastaja: perhaps even hardware generation
2015-06-11T18:28:53Z duud: all of this is easy solvable if you have a standard ffi to c
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2015-06-11T18:29:30Z teurastaja: easy? you need to solve all portability issues
2015-06-11T18:30:05Z teurastaja: on just one system perhaps its "easy" but not on all of them
2015-06-11T18:30:12Z duud: it's easy solvable once you have an standard ffi
2015-06-11T18:31:25Z teurastaja: yes but even when you have C, you need to detect underlying entropy mechanisms unless theres already a /dev/urandom or something similar
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2015-06-11T18:33:02Z teurastaja: how can you garantee a uniform random distribution on all architectures?
2015-06-11T18:33:40Z duud: this is a general problem not specific to scheme
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2015-06-11T18:37:18Z Riastradh: teurastaja: Step 1. Use /dev/urandom.  Step 2. If you encounter a system where it doesn't exist, figure something else out.
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2015-06-11T18:39:53Z Riastradh: (If you want to go to extra effort to make sure it works on Windows or in a chroot, you can (a) use the relevant Windows API, and (b) use getentropy on Linux, getrandom on OpenBSD, sysctl(_KERN_URND) on NetBSD, &c.  But that's all extra credit.)
2015-06-11T18:40:36Z Riastradh: (or getrandom on Linux / getentropy on OpenBSD, rather)
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2015-06-11T18:43:45Z Riastradh: My main point is you need to start with a real application.  Then you can consider what libraries and abstractions the application would benefit from.
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2015-06-12T07:51:56Z ptsil: I'm so confused about some function like 'control prompt reset shift'
2015-06-12T07:52:30Z ptsil: does someone introduce that for me ?
2015-06-12T07:53:40Z ptsil: I know a little sense about delimited continuation, but I don't know how to use this functions
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2015-06-20T21:35:02Z rudybot: la la la
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2015-06-20T21:37:04Z vraid: rudybot: this is no time to fool around!
2015-06-20T21:37:07Z rudybot: vraid: don't let them fool you; xemacs is not dead.
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2015-06-20T21:48:34Z ilammy: rudybot: is vim dead?
2015-06-20T21:48:35Z rudybot: ilammy: I *would* be worried if he raised from the dead and started mirrorin my scheme code ;-)
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2015-06-20T21:49:43Z vraid: i would be flattered
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2015-06-21T00:05:11Z Scappy: Hey, what would be an C "\n" equivalent in Scheme for getting a newline?
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2015-06-21T00:07:22Z vraid: Scappy: like "\n"? http://codepad.org/XXaQDXq6
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2015-06-21T00:09:38Z vanila: #\newline
2015-06-21T00:09:44Z Scappy: vraid: Thanks
2015-06-21T00:10:42Z vraid: sorry if i was snarky :)
2015-06-21T00:10:54Z vraid: vanila: #\newline is the char, right?
2015-06-21T00:14:05Z pjb: Scappy: if you want to insert a newline in a string, just type RET.
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2015-06-21T13:44:33Z frankenstein: hello guys, i am trying to find number of occurences of given numbers, for example here i am trying for 2, but i get errors. can anybody help me ? https://paste.kde.org/pn1eosf10
2015-06-21T13:48:01Z taylanub: frankenstein: first of all, the following clause of cond will not do anything with 'x' and just return '0':  ((null? list) x 0)  because the body of the clause is "x 0" and that just means to sequentially evaluate x and 0 and return the last one.
2015-06-21T13:48:43Z taylanub: I suppose you actually need to return 'n' there, so it should be ((null? list) n) instead, if I'm not mistaken.
2015-06-21T13:49:17Z taylanub: secondly, one should not use 'eq?' for numeric/mathematical comparison.  one should use '=' for that.
2015-06-21T13:49:34Z frankenstein: eq? is for letters ?
2015-06-21T13:50:51Z taylanub: for now I'd just stay away from eq?.  it's a "broken" variant of eqv? for performance-hack reasons.  just use eqv? where you would use eq?; and eqv? is for testing whether two things are *the* same thing.  it still shouldn't be used for numbers because the integer 2 and the inexact rational number 2.0 are two different things, although they're mathematically equal
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2015-06-21T13:51:29Z taylanub: also, the second clause of your cond also looks wrong.  I suppose you wanted:  ((= x (car list)) (f (cdr list) x (+ 1 n)))
2015-06-21T13:51:57Z taylanub: note the space between + and 1.  there might also be a function like "1+" in your system (not +1) but better just use the plain normal addition function i.e. '+'
2015-06-21T13:52:05Z taylanub: +1 is just 1
2015-06-21T13:52:14Z frankenstein: ahh yea
2015-06-21T13:52:44Z taylanub: like you call f recursively in the else clause, you probably wanted to call it recursively in the middle clause too
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2015-06-21T13:56:42Z frankenstein: new error . https://paste.kde.org/p2bsb9rqd
2015-06-21T13:59:00Z frankenstein: taylan turk musun bu arada ? :D
2015-06-21T14:00:42Z taylanub: yes :)
2015-06-21T14:00:49Z frankenstein: :D
2015-06-21T14:01:09Z taylanub: it would help to line up the cond clauses to see if their structure is right.
2015-06-21T14:01:38Z taylanub: looks like you accidentally wrote the last clause into the end of the previous one
2015-06-21T14:03:48Z frankenstein: i fixed it now but it returns me the result 0 always
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2015-06-21T14:35:51Z taylanub: frankenstein: did you fix the first cond clause as well?  it was still wrong in your last paste
2015-06-21T14:37:01Z frankenstein: i couldnt figure it out , its like now but seems wrong though "   (cond ((null? list) 0) "
2015-06-21T14:37:05Z frankenstein: what am i missing ?
2015-06-21T14:37:20Z vanila: (null? list) will be #t or #f
2015-06-21T14:37:29Z vanila: (#t 0) and (#f 0) are errors
2015-06-21T14:37:35Z taylanub: vanila: it's a cond clause
2015-06-21T14:37:46Z vanila: oh i see
2015-06-21T14:38:14Z taylanub: frankenstein: your function is tail-recursive, i.e. it passes along the accumulated result 'n' to recursive calls.  that means you want to return 'n' at the end, not '0'
2015-06-21T14:38:54Z frankenstein: ohh
2015-06-21T14:38:58Z frankenstein: finally it worked
2015-06-21T14:39:11Z frankenstein: (cond ((null? list) x n)
2015-06-21T14:39:23Z taylanub: the 'x' there is redundant
2015-06-21T14:39:32Z frankenstein: you say
2015-06-21T14:41:05Z taylanub: grammatically, a cond clause has the form (<test> <body>), where a <body> is a sequence of expressions.  only the last expression's value is significant; the other expressions are allowed for convenience when you want to e.g. print something or do something else that's unrelated to the value you want to return
2015-06-21T14:41:15Z taylanub: like ((null? list) (display "foo\n") n)
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2015-06-21T14:41:34Z taylanub: but 'x' is just a variable reference.  it's harmless there (doesn't cause an error) but also useless.
2015-06-21T14:41:34Z frankenstein: yea, i see now how it works
2015-06-21T14:42:27Z frankenstein: can i do this example with less parameters
2015-06-21T14:44:05Z taylanub: you could write a variant that isn't tail-recursive, and instead grows the "stack", by doing something like this when you recurse (+ 1 (f ...)), so the result of the recursive call will get 1 added, and the end result will be determined by how many (+ 1 ...) were stacked up.  in that case the last call would just need to return 0 indeed.
2015-06-21T14:44:35Z taylanub: then the 'n' parameter can be omitted
2015-06-21T14:44:50Z LeoNerd: See also: TCMC and friends
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2015-06-21T14:46:22Z frankenstein: its interesting without specifying we add  + 1 and show result
2015-06-21T14:46:32Z frankenstein: specifying a variable
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2015-06-21T18:37:30Z duud: how would I define a datatype like this haskell adt  'data List a = Nil | Cons a (List a)
2015-06-21T18:37:30Z duud: ' in scheam? Here is an example from r7rs-report (define-record-type <pare> (kons x y) pare? (x kar set-kar!) (y kdr)). Record-types in scheme have only one constructor, so how would I handle the empty list in scheme? I seems I can't be explicit about it.
2015-06-21T18:38:39Z taylanub: duud: that's a type definition for the static type system, no?  since Scheme is dynamically typed, that wouldn't make sense.
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2015-06-21T18:39:42Z duud: I know, I just want to be explicit about the empty-list in the type definition
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2015-06-21T18:40:36Z taylanub: the empty list object is a different data type than pairs
2015-06-21T18:40:40Z vraid: kar and kdr?
2015-06-21T18:40:47Z vanila: yeah scheme doesn't have types
2015-06-21T18:40:54Z vanila: you can't do something like 'data'
2015-06-21T18:41:20Z taylanub: vanila: "doesn't have types" is kind of a misnomer.  one could say that for Forth or Assembly maybe.
2015-06-21T18:41:41Z taylanub: (just a matter of terminology of course)
2015-06-21T18:41:44Z pjb: duud: aren't you happy with list? cons? null? ?
2015-06-21T18:42:43Z duud: I'm just thinking about the difference between ADTs and schemes records
2015-06-21T18:43:08Z ijp: pjb: no sane person is
2015-06-21T18:43:27Z ijp: duud: scheme records are more newtype than data
2015-06-21T18:43:37Z pjb: scheme records can be used to implement abstract data types.
2015-06-21T18:44:15Z pjb: But when your ADT already exists in scheme as pairs, () and lists, there's no need to re-implement it with records.
2015-06-21T18:44:36Z ijp: you can write macros to generate adts, but it amounts to generating one record per clause
2015-06-21T18:44:42Z duud: taylanub: ...different data type than pairs - I see. But this is not the case for haskells adts
2015-06-21T18:46:19Z vraid: duud: are you looking for something like typed racket perhaps?
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2015-06-21T18:47:14Z ijp: pjb: and the A here is Algebraic, not Abstract
2015-06-21T18:47:30Z pjb: ok
2015-06-21T18:48:08Z duud: I mean suppose I'm defining a list datatype with scheme records like in the r7rs example. My procedures have to handle the empty-list case. The definition of the empty-list is not explicit in the definition of the data-type but implicit in my procedures, this is what I don't like
2015-06-21T18:48:32Z vanila: sorry scheme is lower level than haskell
2015-06-21T18:48:44Z vanila: you can't express that sort of thing
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2015-06-21T18:49:01Z pjb: Sure, you just have to implement it.
2015-06-21T18:49:27Z vanila: you wil have to just write a comment explanaing how to use the function/what valid inputs are
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2015-06-21T18:51:20Z duud: vanila: I wasn't sure there are no better ways, now I'm sure so thx :)
2015-06-21T18:51:45Z vanila: in scheme you only have very basic static checking for things like number of parameters
2015-06-21T18:51:54Z vanila: and not everyone checks that anyway
2015-06-21T18:52:38Z vraid: duud: typed racket does handle those cases
2015-06-21T18:53:06Z duud: It's not about type checking, it's about the explicit information how the empty-list is represented
2015-06-21T18:53:27Z pjb: (define empty-list '())
2015-06-21T18:53:38Z duud: for my defined list data type
2015-06-21T18:53:50Z pjb: this is perfectly explicit and specified that the empty list is repesented with the object denoted by ().
2015-06-21T18:54:28Z duud: pjb: I like this more than a comment
2015-06-21T18:54:49Z ijp: Then write a datatype macro that generates the N records for N clauses
2015-06-21T18:54:52Z pjb: when you create your own data type then you define empty-list as you wish of course.
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2015-06-21T18:56:51Z duud: the it would look like (kons 1 (empty-list)) or so, thats fine
2015-06-21T18:57:41Z vanila: not about type checking?
2015-06-21T18:57:47Z vanila: sorry I misunderstood your question
2015-06-21T18:58:10Z pjb: since empty-list is probably a singleton, you can bind it directly: (define empty-list 'empty) (kons 1 empty-list)
2015-06-21T19:00:34Z pjb: duud: but this is the "implementation" or "representation" of your algebraic data types.
2015-06-21T19:01:08Z pjb: If you're really concerned with ADT, what you want is to implement a way to represent their "definition", and to provide algebraic operators to operate on those ADT.
2015-06-21T19:01:30Z duud: pjb: right but it feels not so elegant like in the haskell case
2015-06-21T19:02:10Z pjb: For example, in Common Lisp, types are represented by specific sexps.  Like: (member 1 2) is the type {1,2}.  And you have operators such as (or null (member 1 2))  (and integer (satisfies evenp)) etc.
2015-06-21T19:02:32Z pjb: duud: the elegance comes easily by writing a DSL to make it nice.
2015-06-21T19:02:59Z duud: pjb: right
2015-06-21T19:03:07Z pjb: So you can implement operators to define types and compose them algebraically.
2015-06-21T19:03:24Z pjb: One of those operators can be to generate some scheme code implementing those types, but this is not even needed…
2015-06-21T19:04:13Z pjb: duud: you may also have a look at liskell, which is a sexp based representation of haskell code ;-)
2015-06-21T19:07:22Z duud: pjb: thx, I'll try to hack something, seems like a nice exercise
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2015-06-21T19:10:22Z duud: One more, is there a standard way to destructure records?
2015-06-21T19:11:13Z ijp: no
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2015-06-21T19:11:56Z ijp: most schemes have a match macro, which works more or less similar to each other, which may or may not support records in a natural way
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2015-06-21T19:17:10Z duud: ijp: damn, didn't want to hear this, but thx :)
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2015-06-21T19:18:51Z vanila: scheme doesn't have pattern matching but a lot of people have added it to the language as a macro
2015-06-21T19:19:16Z ijp: duud: you'll get that feeling a lot
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2015-06-21T19:21:24Z taylanub: vanila: you can't really have full static checking of number of arguments because in many cases there's no way to know anything about the procedure at hand while compiling a procedure-call form.  some compilers just do it for some cases and emit a warning when they detect that there's likely a wrong number of arguments.
2015-06-21T19:21:59Z vanila: I agree
2015-06-21T19:22:35Z taylanub: consider:  (let ((datum (read))) (let ((proc (if (list? datum) foo bar))) (proc x y z)))  ;not possible to know whether foo or bar will be called
2015-06-21T19:23:34Z taylanub: even if you have whole-program analysis, that is.  in practice, it would be enough to refer to a variable imported from another module.  unless your system does "static linking" of modules...
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2015-06-21T19:29:01Z duud: ijp: I already have it. "in scheme we can build so beautiful abstractions..." Yes, thats right. But.....
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2015-06-21T19:29:58Z taylanub: static typing and dynamic typing are just two different "mindsets"
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2015-06-21T19:32:32Z taylanub: with dynamic typing you can focus purely on the actual data-flow that will take place when the program runs.  with static typing you can express your program's logic somewhat more declaratively/statically, which both gives you a safety net but also makes you think in terms of this second additional layer of logic, or something...
2015-06-21T19:33:00Z vanila: yeah
2015-06-21T19:33:11Z vanila: and also types is just one static analysis that you can attach to a language
2015-06-21T19:33:21Z lolisa: I'd say both of them are mode of gradual typing and stuff similar... That said, programmer should have the ability to choose whatever they like, so I dont really see a conflict here...
2015-06-21T19:33:39Z vanila: there's also scope, number of args, more advanced things like array bounds checking
2015-06-21T19:33:42Z taylanub: vanila: well I'd say it cannot be simply "attached" precisely because it ends up changing your whole style
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2015-06-21T19:37:18Z taylanub: I'm speaking in very vague/subjective terms of course.
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2015-06-21T19:53:54Z ijp: vanila: er, you can check all those things in advanced type systems
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2015-06-21T19:54:44Z lolisa: ijp, on most thing, yes you can, Coq (dependent type interactive theorem prover) here
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2015-06-21T19:54:56Z lolisa: Coq user here
2015-06-21T19:55:14Z ijp: bounds checking is like the goto example for dependent types
2015-06-21T19:56:11Z lolisa: For example, you can ewrite definition Finite (m : nat) := { n : nat | n < m } in Coq, and it'll work fine on runtime.
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2015-06-21T19:56:27Z lolisa: However type inference will always be a trouble
2015-06-21T19:56:58Z ijp: I've used coq a decent amount, but not any of the others like agda
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2015-06-21T19:57:40Z lolisa: because of CH correspondence : type is proposition and type inference is automatic theorem proving, which suffer *huge* curse of dimension, so it's really a drawback
2015-06-21T19:58:26Z lolisa: me too, I had try other dependent type PL like agda idris but I have no idea howcome they have no tactic and tactical, using them is too difficult for me
2015-06-21T19:59:22Z vanila: tactics are needed
2015-06-21T20:02:29Z vanila: to get real work one
2015-06-21T20:02:30Z vanila: done
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2015-06-21T20:04:24Z lolisa: totally agree, Coq really got the hang of tactic, (backtracking + all sorts of tactical) is able to automate the hell outa the problems, I once even use a single combined tactic to generate a function completely
2015-06-21T20:05:19Z vanila: yeah :D
2015-06-21T20:05:24Z vanila: it's very cool
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2015-06-21T20:17:32Z duud: I throw it just in: http://smyles.com/haskell-data-types-scheme
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2015-06-21T21:10:26Z Snappy___: I'm using Gambit v4.2.8 and randomly I start getting the error "*** ERROR IN (console)@20.1 -- Ill-placed 'define'", can anyone help?
2015-06-21T21:10:44Z Snappy___: I don't always get this error when using define
2015-06-21T21:10:56Z Snappy___: It works agian when i restart gambit
2015-06-21T21:11:07Z pjb: you cannot place define anywere you want.
2015-06-21T21:11:12Z pjb: There's some syntax to respect.
2015-06-21T21:12:05Z Snappy___: What do you mean? One moment I write (define x 7) and everything is fine, the next there is an error.
2015-06-21T21:13:21Z pjb: Probably because the next, you put the define elsewhere than on the toplevel.
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2015-06-21T21:15:14Z Snappy___: Sorry, but toplevel is the interactive interpreter?
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2015-06-21T21:16:37Z pjb: Yes.
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2015-06-21T21:26:00Z kephra: Snappy___, you can only use define to define a symbol (in most schemes), you could use set! to change it
2015-06-21T21:28:01Z dsp: gn FRIGNbro
2015-06-21T21:28:22Z dsp: sorry wrong window ;)
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2015-06-21T21:40:42Z ManDay: Why does vim mark it as an error when I start a token with - (minus) ?
2015-06-21T21:41:18Z ManDay: (for example call a varialbe ->myvar)
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2015-06-21T21:47:32Z ManDay: also, shouldn't parens and brackets be equivalent? I get an error with (lambda [a . b] ...)   but not with (lambda (a . b) ... )
2015-06-21T21:48:24Z mikeyhc: ManDay: the scheme syntax rules mark anything that doesn't fit a rule as an error
2015-06-21T21:48:38Z ManDay: ph
2015-06-21T21:48:43Z ManDay: oh, i see, thanks
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2015-06-21T21:48:57Z ManDay: kinda inconsistent tho
2015-06-21T21:49:23Z mikeyhc: its completely wrong, but its the easiest way to write vim syntax highlighting
2015-06-21T21:49:51Z ManDay: oh, i see see now. I thought you were referring to my second question?
2015-06-21T21:49:59Z ManDay: but ok
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2015-06-21T21:54:17Z ManDay: Hm, I get an "unbound-variable" on (assertion-violation "..." "..." 'x)
2015-06-21T21:54:28Z taylanub: ManDay: re. your second question, that behavior (making parens and square brackets equivalent) has been standardized in R6RS but most Scheme implementations don't follow the R6RS strictly, if they follow it at all.  I know that Racket folks are fond of square brackets, and Guile can be configured to do so as well, other than that don't know
2015-06-21T21:54:55Z ManDay: ah ok. might be because i dropped back to guile 1.8
2015-06-21T21:55:06Z taylanub: dunno if guile 1.8 has that feature
2015-06-21T21:55:34Z taylanub: I think no guile version has it enabled by default though.
2015-06-21T21:55:36Z ManDay: Hm. (error) works, so I guess not
2015-06-21T21:56:13Z taylanub: guile 2.x would be strongly recommended by the way :)
2015-06-21T21:57:56Z ManDay: yeah, i had that. until some package on gentoo forced me back to 1.8
2015-06-21T21:58:13Z ManDay: i think autogen which is dependended upon by gnutls isn't working without it
2015-06-21T21:58:17Z ManDay: a mess :-/
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2015-06-21T22:00:27Z ManDay: http://dpaste.com/227V4VQ ((e 'x) 'get_arg)  produces the "Unknown method" error. How come?
2015-06-21T22:00:37Z ManDay: (sorry, silly question most likely)
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2015-06-21T22:11:57Z kephra: ManDay, where is the rest of the define?
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2015-06-21T22:17:27Z ManDay: kephra: what rest?
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2015-06-21T22:18:05Z kephra: http://kephra.de/o3proto/dpaste.html#1F4XY0F <- sorry - it was just badly spaced - so the rest of the define was right out of sight
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2015-06-21T22:18:37Z ManDay: aye, i guess my tabwidth=2 doesn't help
2015-06-21T22:18:51Z kephra: *ouch* no
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2015-06-21T22:19:04Z ManDay: didn't configure vim to insert spaces for scheme yet
2015-06-21T22:19:06Z kephra: tab and web does not work
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2015-06-21T22:19:30Z ManDay: heh, i read "boldly spaced"...
2015-06-21T22:19:43Z ManDay: which would have been a nice euphemism
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2015-06-21T22:22:51Z kephra: ManDay, http://kephra.de/o3proto/dpaste.html#2ZTSE6Z <- this one works better
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2015-06-21T22:25:14Z ManDay: so you dropped the ( )s ?
2015-06-21T22:25:34Z ManDay: But the spec... it says case takes a list'ish token
2015-06-21T22:25:49Z ManDay: oh, i guess that's another thing between versions... compiling guile-2 now
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2015-06-21T22:26:08Z kephra: well - then both the scheme you tried, and the one I wrote are wrong - and I guess both passed the regression test ;-)
2015-06-21T22:26:51Z ManDay: heh wait, why is mine wrong?
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2015-06-21T22:29:53Z kephra: http://kephra.de/o3proto/dpaste.html#0YKCQV4 <- i think this is the real right version ... I currently dont know why the prior also works ;-)
2015-06-21T22:31:09Z kephra: http://kephra.de/o3proto/dpaste.html#22WEJB8 <- take a look at this code ... it suggests, that the list of the case statement is not evaluted!
2015-06-21T22:31:14Z kephra: its a constant list
2015-06-21T22:31:57Z kephra: else a e i o u would result in failing symbol lookups
2015-06-21T22:33:05Z ManDay: i understand what you mean but i don't understand how this agrees with the standard
2015-06-21T22:33:46Z kephra: http://people.csail.mit.edu/jaffer/r4rs_6.html#SEC33 <- I just pasted that example from the standard ;-)
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2015-06-21T22:34:47Z kephra: its real funny - i was blindly coding my scheme, till it fullfilled the regression test - i was not aware, that the case lists are constant lists
2015-06-21T22:34:55Z kephra: pre quoted
2015-06-21T22:36:04Z ManDay: that thing you posted there is not the std
2015-06-21T22:36:06Z ManDay: the std says:
2015-06-21T22:36:15Z kephra: but standard is clear, ManDay - it says it compares against each datum
2015-06-21T22:36:38Z ManDay: http://www.r6rs.org/final/html/r6rs/r6rs-Z-H-14.html#node_sec_11.4.5
2015-06-21T22:37:28Z kephra: ManDay, r5rs includes the same example
2015-06-21T22:38:00Z ManDay: kephra: I'm sorry I don't follow you. According to 11.4.5, each of the list'ish things is checked for any occurence of <key"
2015-06-21T22:38:21Z ManDay: what is it that you're saying?
2015-06-21T22:39:30Z kephra: only key is evaluated the list to compare this is used as datum (as is, without evaluation)
2015-06-21T22:40:04Z kephra: A case expression is evaluated as follows. <Key> is evaluated and its result is compared using eqv? against the data represented by the <datum>s of each <case clause> in turn
2015-06-21T22:40:34Z ManDay: " If the result of evaluating <key> is equivalent to a datum of a <case clause>, the corresponding <expression>s are evaluated from left to right and the results of the last expression [...]" it goes on!
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2015-06-21T22:40:47Z ManDay: it says "equivalent to A datum"
2015-06-21T22:41:00Z kephra: now my other example, accidently worked
2015-06-21T22:41:40Z kephra: because 'get_arg is translated at reader macro time into (quote get_arg)
2015-06-21T22:42:19Z ManDay: but that's bad! What if I want to use a variable in place of a quoted symbol?!
2015-06-21T22:42:23Z kephra: http://kephra.de/o3proto/dpaste.html#0MP7PTZ <- look here ManDay ... this is funny ;-)
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2015-06-21T22:45:07Z kephra: use cond instead of case, in that case ManDay
2015-06-21T22:45:11Z ManDay: i don't....
2015-06-21T22:45:13Z ManDay: what ?!
2015-06-21T22:45:21Z ManDay: what is happening in your example
2015-06-21T22:45:37Z ManDay: kephra: ah, ok, cond
2015-06-21T22:45:57Z kephra: *yeah* w-t-f is the example working with 'quote ;-)
2015-06-21T22:46:19Z ManDay: lol
2015-06-21T22:46:34Z ManDay: it's past midnight, I think I'll go to sleep now ;-)
2015-06-21T22:47:09Z kephra: 'get_arg is translated into (quote get_arg) by reader marco, long before cond macro works
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2015-06-21T22:47:44Z kephra: so cond macro sees (quote get_arg) ... thats why my first try to fix your example worked at all
2015-06-21T22:48:18Z kephra: it got get_arg in a list, ... well ... the quote did not matter
2015-06-21T22:48:34Z kephra: ManDay, do you now understand case?
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2015-06-21T22:51:21Z ManDay: I'm afraid not really. Not your last example. But I got it working with cond at least
2015-06-21T22:51:40Z ManDay: If you're saying that case adds a "quote" through the macro reader, then yes, i understand
2015-06-21T22:52:11Z ManDay: I just fail to see the point of that. What if I want to use a variable to compare with - can case not do that then?
2015-06-21T22:52:20Z ManDay: anyway, really, i ought to go to bed
2015-06-21T22:52:29Z ManDay: cond works now :) thanks
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2015-06-22T03:02:50Z qu1j0t3: hola. Any chickenistas here? I would like help working through a chicken-install crash...
2015-06-22T03:03:10Z qu1j0t3: on a fresh build to a slightly less supported platform maybe...
2015-06-22T03:03:33Z evhan: qu1j0t3: Try #chicken.
2015-06-22T03:03:39Z qu1j0t3: oh, good idea. thanks evhan
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2015-06-22T08:31:47Z ManDay: kephra: Ping
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2015-06-22T09:10:47Z kephra: ManDay, pong
2015-06-22T09:15:51Z ManDay: Is there any solution to using a case where the cases have "dynamic" conditions? Like (let [(X 3)] (case (Y) ((X 8) ...) ((4 2) ...))) ?
2015-06-22T09:16:33Z kephra: the case (X 8) will match the symbol X and the number 8
2015-06-22T09:17:12Z kephra: so case is like in C - for checking a value against constant
2015-06-22T09:17:45Z kephra: the language designer perhaps thought that a compiler can optimize this better
2015-06-22T09:18:12Z kephra: or they just copyed switch/case from previous (algol like) languages
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2015-06-22T09:20:13Z ManDay: i see.
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2015-06-22T12:33:03Z ManDay: What would one usually do to re-define * such that it works "as before" on everything that it has been so far defined for and "according to my own choice" for everything it has not yet been defined for (e.g. (* proc_1 proc_2) in order to define a multiplication between two "objects")?
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2015-06-22T12:47:15Z qu1j0t3: ManDay: that sounds like pattern matching, a feature of many other functional languages
2015-06-22T12:49:36Z wasamasa: ManDay: sounds like you want to kill any optimization your compiler can do :P
2015-06-22T12:49:45Z wasamasa: ManDay: please don't do that
2015-06-22T12:50:05Z wasamasa: ManDay: operator overloading is pretty evil and should be banished to C++
2015-06-22T12:50:06Z ijp: qu1j0t3: nothing to do with it
2015-06-22T12:50:14Z ijp: ManDay: yes, and no
2015-06-22T12:52:01Z ijp: there is no builtin way of doing ad-hoc polymorphism for a variety of uninteresting reasons
2015-06-22T12:53:07Z ijp: you can do (let ((orig-* *)) (set! * (lambda (wibble wobble) .... (orig-* ...) ...)))
2015-06-22T12:53:27Z ijp: slib is full of that
2015-06-22T12:56:39Z taylanub: illegal in R6RS and R7RS library semantics, in case that matters
2015-06-22T12:57:24Z taylanub: but you can have a library rename-import * as orig-*, then export its own *, and other libraries will have to import that * and not the standard *
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2015-06-22T13:00:52Z taylanub: R6RS example: (library (export *) (import (rename (only (rnrs base) *) (* orig-*))) (define (* . args) (if blah blub (apply orig-* args))))
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2015-06-22T13:10:54Z ManDay: hrm, sounds like it's evil
2015-06-22T13:11:01Z ManDay: so, i'll not do it
2015-06-22T13:22:56Z taylanub: ManDay: it's actually fine if you do it the way I mentioned, although annoying to rename, exclude, etc.
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2015-06-22T13:26:47Z ManDay: ok, i haven't used libraries yet. I have to learn how that works. thanks!
2015-06-22T13:29:04Z oleo: morning
2015-06-22T13:33:18Z ManDay: morning
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2015-06-22T14:32:09Z frenkenstein: hello guys , i am trying to find largest numbers first element, what i did here https://paste.kde.org/ptst4gjyh and the error , whats the problem ?
2015-06-22T14:32:44Z vanila: (f '((2 3)(3 7) (7 98) (1 34) (9 45)) 0)
2015-06-22T14:32:48Z vanila: what result do you want?
2015-06-22T14:33:03Z vanila: is it (9 45)?
2015-06-22T14:33:16Z frenkenstein: the error is also in paste
2015-06-22T14:33:21Z frenkenstein: i get that error
2015-06-22T14:33:35Z frenkenstein: ahh sorry
2015-06-22T14:34:04Z frenkenstein: what i want is , i want the find largest number of pairs and show the first pair of it
2015-06-22T14:34:22Z vanila: what do you mean
2015-06-22T14:34:23Z frenkenstein: here 98 is biggest number and i want to show 7 of it
2015-06-22T14:34:27Z vanila: ooh
2015-06-22T14:34:28Z vanila: ok
2015-06-22T14:35:10Z vanila: yeah you could solve this by having accumulator parameters 'current best' & 'car of best pair'
2015-06-22T14:35:16Z frenkenstein: i can find 98 for biggest number and show but i want to make it more complicated to understand
2015-06-22T14:35:48Z frenkenstein: i could use another parameter for first pair
2015-06-22T14:36:01Z frenkenstein: i dont know that much deep scheme
2015-06-22T14:38:21Z vanila: https://paste.kde.org/pygnqvyee
2015-06-22T14:38:24Z vanila: you can use a structure like this
2015-06-22T14:41:01Z frenkenstein: ohh , what is this ? :D
2015-06-22T14:41:07Z frenkenstein: very interesting
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2015-06-22T14:48:50Z vanila: just a beginnign :)
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2015-06-22T15:33:17Z duud: I'm trying to understand strings in scheme - so I'm reading the r7rs-report. It states "Strings are sequences of characters..." <- (does this actually mean something? are there any procedures which work on sequences?) later it list some string-procedures. I've read the whole chapter and I have no idea how I can process strings. I mean in some FP-languages strings are lists of chars, so here I know I can use list-recursion to process
2015-06-22T15:33:17Z duud: strings. Even if I read the C reference it states "..strings are arrays of chars..." here I know I can use iteration on arrays to process strings. Am I missing some concepts of scheme? This would explain why I have no idea how to process strings after reading tho whole string-chapter in r7rs. To be more concrete lets say I want to split a sentence into a list of words, how would I do this?
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2015-06-22T15:34:33Z LeoNerd: In Scheme, a string is essentially an atomic unit
2015-06-22T15:34:41Z LeoNerd: But it has a sort of inner structure that string-ref and friends can peek into
2015-06-22T15:35:17Z vanila: It would be quite hard to split a string into words
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2015-06-22T15:35:42Z vanila: you could use string->list to turn it into a list of characters, then split that
2015-06-22T15:35:49Z vanila: using recursion on the list
2015-06-22T15:36:19Z LeoNerd: That's a common technique
2015-06-22T15:36:29Z taylanub: duud: "sequence" does not have a formal meaning there.  the string API is akin to the list or vector API in that you can reference and set objects at indexes, get certain time-complexity guarantees for these operations, can't change the length of the sequence, and in this case the objects you can get and set are limited to the character type
2015-06-22T15:36:38Z gnomon: Or you could iterate along the string and use locale-specific word delimeter matches to build up your own list-of-words sequence.
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2015-06-22T15:41:00Z ManDay: http://www.r6rs.org/final/html/r6rs/r6rs-Z-H-14.html#node_sec_11.1 <- Huh? "No object satisfies more than one of the following predicates"? At least here '() satisfies both list? and null?...
2015-06-22T15:41:09Z duud: thx this helps a little, but I'm still not sure how to process strings. So I have to use this idom string->list, rucursion-on-lists, list->string ?
2015-06-22T15:41:22Z vanila: htat's just a suggestion
2015-06-22T15:41:30Z taylanub: duud: or maybe I shouldn't compare it to the list API, because lists in Scheme are not a concrete data type.  vectors are a very good comparison though; more or less the only differences between strings and vectors is that 1) strings can only contain characters, 2) constant-time access is not guaranteed because the implementation might use a variable-width encoding.
2015-06-22T15:41:39Z vanila: to be honest it migth be better to not process stringns at all
2015-06-22T15:42:30Z ManDay: Also, why is "vector" considered part of the standard and not simply a library feature implemented in terms of a list?
2015-06-22T15:42:38Z ManDay: ("implemented", that is)
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2015-06-22T15:44:15Z duud: so how would I split a string, it's a common task
2015-06-22T15:44:33Z duud: without using a library of course
2015-06-22T15:44:45Z vanila: you can't do that easily
2015-06-22T15:45:06Z duud: that sounds really strange :)
2015-06-22T15:46:04Z duud: nobody using strings in scheme? :)
2015-06-22T15:46:43Z LeoNerd: You can't basically do *anything* in pure r5rs alone... it's a rather minimal spec that gives you the base building blocks, on top of which you can start to construct useful elements
2015-06-22T15:47:31Z ManDay: but a string is a basic data type. there should thus at least be means to access individual chars of it
2015-06-22T15:47:53Z ManDay: otherwise it's as useless as a boolean whose value you can't read out...
2015-06-22T15:47:58Z LeoNerd: Sure. Tht's what  string-ref  is for
2015-06-22T15:48:54Z ManDay: well then splitting a string shouldn't pose a problem, as long as there is a way to assemble it back together :-P
2015-06-22T15:49:34Z duud: hmm, are there any popular string libraries?, so I could look how they process strings
2015-06-22T15:49:46Z LeoNerd: I would imagine there's a SRFI for doing string handling
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2015-06-22T15:52:31Z duud: I saw this example on rosettacode.org. (define (string-repeat n str)
2015-06-22T15:52:31Z duud:   (apply string-append (vector->list (make-vector n str)))). This looks so crazy, I mean conceptually crazy
2015-06-22T15:52:37Z vanila: did you see this http://codereview.stackexchange.com/questions/75172/split-string-for-r7rs
2015-06-22T15:52:51Z vanila: the first answer has a good tip with substring
2015-06-22T15:52:54Z vanila: but programming that way is difficult
2015-06-22T15:53:16Z vanila: yeah it is crazy
2015-06-22T15:53:41Z vanila: "R7RS introduces the new string-for-each procedure" -  that's quite good
2015-06-22T15:53:57Z vanila: only a bit over  10 lines..
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2015-06-22T15:56:06Z ijp: "new"
2015-06-22T15:56:29Z LeoNerd: "new" in that R5 didn't have it
2015-06-22T15:56:57Z ijp: ManDay: because vectors are conceptually random access rather than sequential access
2015-06-22T15:57:38Z ijp: and while you can create a random access structure on top of pairs if you put in the effort, it will have a more expensive lookup than if you make it a primitive
2015-06-22T15:57:46Z ManDay: ijp: i think it's my misconception that the standard should be minimal (unlambda-like minimal)...
2015-06-22T15:58:04Z ManDay: So I often wonder what is the reason for one going either into the std or the lib or neither
2015-06-22T15:58:09Z ijp: it's also supposed to be usable
2015-06-22T15:58:28Z ijp: which is why we don't just have lambda
2015-06-22T15:58:30Z ManDay: i didn't suppose scheme was considered usable
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2015-06-22T15:58:37Z ijp: ManDay: it was 40 years ago
2015-06-22T15:58:50Z ijp: a simpler time
2015-06-22T15:59:25Z ManDay: 40 years?!
2015-06-22T15:59:30Z ijp: yes
2015-06-22T15:59:31Z ManDay: wow, that's a long time
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2015-06-22T15:59:49Z ManDay: still the most beautiful language there is, probably
2015-06-22T15:59:56Z ijp: not really
2015-06-22T16:00:12Z ManDay: what would you call more beautiful?
2015-06-22T16:00:23Z ijp: not programming at all
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2015-06-22T16:01:09Z ManDay: "What would you call a more beautiful programming language?" (jerk)
2015-06-22T16:01:13Z ManDay: :-P
2015-06-22T16:01:16Z duud: :)
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2015-06-22T16:03:09Z ManDay: it was a serious question. i'm on a life-long search for beautiful, simplistic programming languages (well, usable, they should be to a certain extent, too)...
2015-06-22T16:03:52Z ijp: thought for the day: is beauty totally ordered
2015-06-22T16:04:09Z vanila: ManDay, other minimal languages: forth, PEG, pi calculus, SK combinators, linear logic, minikanren
2015-06-22T16:04:34Z ManDay: these are too many to believe you
2015-06-22T16:04:44Z ManDay: though let me wiki them up
2015-06-22T16:04:52Z vanila: wow why do I bother
2015-06-22T16:05:04Z ManDay: oh come on it was a joke
2015-06-22T16:05:08Z vanila: oh okay
2015-06-22T16:05:36Z vanila: there was a fun talk about x86 MOV instruction being TC
2015-06-22T16:05:41Z ManDay: i might have forgotten that probably an active community would be great, too ;-P
2015-06-22T16:06:02Z ijp: vanila: the world is truly a horiffic place
2015-06-22T16:06:12Z vanila: yeah sadly no one really appreciates minimalism so they are always least popular languages
2015-06-22T16:06:56Z ManDay: hm, i like all reverse polish languages, too
2015-06-22T16:07:13Z ManDay: they are so simple and so awkward to program, they must be pure beauty :-D
2015-06-22T16:07:27Z ijp: vanila: or maybe they just disagree with what constitutes a minimum
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2015-06-22T16:08:05Z frenkenstein: hello guys how do i compare two list for their equality?
2015-06-22T16:08:08Z ManDay: vanila: Of those you mentioned, is any as flexible as scheme in allowing to basically redefine everything?
2015-06-22T16:08:21Z vanila: only forth
2015-06-22T16:08:51Z vanila: frenkenstein, EQUAL?
2015-06-22T16:09:45Z frenkenstein: can i do something like this ?  (= ( and ( first pairs ) ( second pairs ))
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2015-06-22T16:13:34Z taylanub: ManDay: vectors have constant-time access to their slots.  lists can't.
2015-06-22T16:14:21Z taylanub: frenkenstein: what does the 'and' do there?
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2015-06-22T16:17:14Z frenkenstein: i dont know i thought and again thought that was wrong :D okey okey
2015-06-22T16:20:49Z frenkenstein: i figured it out , thanks vanila
2015-06-22T16:20:54Z frenkenstein: equal? works
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2015-06-22T16:22:29Z duud: taylanub: you've mentioned that 'string-ref' isn't guaranteed to be O(1). This is an important information, where do I find such kind of information?
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2015-06-22T16:24:51Z taylanub: duud: in the specification of 'string-ref'
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2015-06-22T16:27:05Z duud: taylanub: :) seems I've overlooked it, but great, that's the right place for it
2015-06-22T16:28:32Z taylanub: :)
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2015-06-22T16:33:53Z duud: so it seems people are using string-ports for processing strings efficiently, very strange, but not a problem if there are libraries
2015-06-22T16:34:12Z vanila: damn
2015-06-22T16:34:25Z vanila: you're right, I even used that before myself - but I didn't remeber :(
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2015-06-22T16:44:36Z pjb: duud: notice that the second 'r' in 'r7rs' is already 'report'.  r7rs = revised⁷ report on scheme.
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2015-06-22T16:46:19Z duud: pjb: I know, but I read somewhere that it's common to say 'the rnrs-report'
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2015-06-22T16:53:30Z pjb: I just say the r5rs or the r7rs.
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2015-06-22T16:58:18Z pjb: duud: to do anything, in any programming language, it's always the same: you introduce the abstractions you need to do the thing you have to do.
2015-06-22T16:58:45Z pjb: duud: you can easily introduce any string processing abstraction you require, using string-ref, and vectors or lists.
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2015-06-22T17:04:09Z duud: pjb: thx, it would help a lot if you could write some concrete snippets.
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2015-06-22T17:10:36Z duud: pjb: do you mean something like: copy the string using string-ref into a list/vector - use list/vector for processing - convert list/vector to string
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2015-06-22T17:14:43Z f-a: is there an r7rs large spec to be looked at? Even if it is not final
2015-06-22T17:15:44Z vanila: no i don't think that exists yet
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2015-06-22T17:17:28Z ijp: or will ever
2015-06-22T17:17:58Z f-a: haha
2015-06-22T17:18:22Z f-a: (because that's a joke? Right? Right guise? RIGHT?!)
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2015-06-22T17:39:58Z pjb: duud: well, I write my code in Common Lisp.  There, (deftype string (&optional (size '*)) `(array character (,size))), so 1- I can use vector and sequence operators on strings, and 2- aref on strings is O(1), therefore I program string functions using aref, without needing to copy it to temporary O(1) storage.
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2015-06-22T17:42:45Z duud: pjb: ok
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2015-06-22T17:46:39Z pjb: duud: that said, even with non O(1) string-ref, you can probably implement quite a number of string processing functions using string-copy (substring) and string-copy! in the most efficient way.
2015-06-22T17:47:26Z pjb: duud: on the other hand, given non O(1) string-ref, it's a shame that they have string->list but not string->vector…
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2015-06-22T17:47:55Z pjb: Ah, there's string->vector in the vector section! Yay!
2015-06-22T17:48:31Z pjb: And it even takes start and end parameters, so you can copy only what you need to perform your processing.
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2015-06-22T17:53:52Z duud: pjb: this helps a lot. After a read the string section in r7rs a had no clue how to process strings. It is not obvious that practically you have to do conversion and use other data-structures for processing.
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2015-06-22T17:55:13Z duud: something is wrong in my brain... s/a/I but only sometimes
2015-06-22T17:55:51Z ijp: well, you don't have to
2015-06-22T17:56:51Z duud: because....
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2015-06-22T18:00:29Z frenkenstein: hello guys , i m trying to sort elements in list from smalles to biggest number, but i get LET: bad syntax error , thats problem here,  https://paste.kde.org/pp0kzxplp
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2015-06-22T18:15:22Z pjb: ijp: if you can live with non O(1) string-ref, yes, you don't have to.
2015-06-22T18:15:44Z pjb: But it's really dumb to have non O(1) string-ref, IMO.
2015-06-22T18:16:05Z ijp: the whole string api is dumb, but that's a different matter
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2015-06-22T18:16:48Z pjb: frenkenstein: what's the value of let?
2015-06-22T18:16:51Z ijp: but since no-one writes portable code anyway, you can rely on your implementation to treat strings as vectors
2015-06-22T18:17:03Z pjb: frenkenstein: you should check the syntax of cond…
2015-06-22T18:17:11Z frenkenstein: car list
2015-06-22T18:17:24Z pjb: frenkenstein: where do you bind let to any value?
2015-06-22T18:17:38Z pjb: frenkenstein: also, I would advise to a program that indents scheme code properly…
2015-06-22T18:18:00Z frenkenstein: isnt this ? (let ([n (car list)]))
2015-06-22T18:18:14Z ijp: I'm surprised that doesn't error
2015-06-22T18:18:39Z ijp: frenkenstein: because of the way you wrote your cond, that let is not the macro binding, but a lexical binding
2015-06-22T18:18:45Z frenkenstein: i get a lot of trouble with parathesis so after somewhere it looks so ugly
2015-06-22T18:19:11Z ijp: you should wrap that let in (else ... )
2015-06-22T18:19:22Z pjb: frenkenstein: http://snag.gy/q7mLo.jpg vs. http://snag.gy/JeUgg.jpg
2015-06-22T18:19:54Z vanila: (let ((n (car list)))) body)
2015-06-22T18:20:13Z vanila: correction: (let ((n (car list))) body)
2015-06-22T18:20:14Z pjb: When you use emacs with paredit to edit scheme code, it indents automatically, and you immediately see when your parentheses are wrong.
2015-06-22T18:20:54Z frenkenstein: yes but emacs works in windows properly , in linux , not
2015-06-22T18:20:58Z pjb: from the second image, you can see that your if is wrong too.
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2015-06-22T18:21:08Z pjb: frenkenstein: emacs native platform is linux!
2015-06-22T18:21:25Z frenkenstein: yeap i know
2015-06-22T18:21:36Z frenkenstein: but i am saying what i see :D
2015-06-22T18:21:36Z pjb: it works properly on MS-Windows, Linux, MacOSX.
2015-06-22T18:21:53Z frenkenstein: i mean for indentation of scheme
2015-06-22T18:22:13Z pjb: Anyways, it's your choice, either you learn to install and configures your tools properly, or you do the work manually yourself.
2015-06-22T18:22:44Z frenkenstein: :D
2015-06-22T18:22:58Z frenkenstein: calm down , i didnt say anything
2015-06-22T18:23:30Z pjb: frenkenstein: perhaps DrRacket can do indentation too?
2015-06-22T18:23:43Z pjb: Anyways, on my second image, do you see the problem with let and if?
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2015-06-22T18:26:41Z frenkenstein: hmm , i cant see
2015-06-22T18:28:12Z pjb: frenkenstein: the (let is aligned with ((null?  It means that cond will interpret let as a variable that should evaluate to true or #f.  But let is not a symbol like any other one, it's a syntactic keyword, so it cannot be bound to a value, and hence the error you get.
2015-06-22T18:28:43Z pjb: frenkenstein: similarly, in your if, the first call to (f is aligned with n therefore it is a third parameter to >; Probably not what you intended.
2015-06-22T18:29:22Z pjb: The syntax of cond is (cond (test expression…) (test expression…) … (else expression…))
2015-06-22T18:29:32Z frenkenstein: yea
2015-06-22T18:29:33Z pjb: Not (cond (test expression…) (let bindings expressions…)).
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2015-06-22T18:35:12Z frenkenstein: okey thank you guys
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2015-06-23T09:32:54Z ManDay: Can anyone give an explanation of what rationale is behind splitting things into either the "core std" or the "lib"?
2015-06-23T09:33:37Z ManDay: As a newcomer, it looks totally arbitrary to me. Like (reverse LST) - I'd would have sworn things like that sure go into the stdlib. But instead, it's considered part of the core language.
2015-06-23T09:34:28Z ManDay: To be clear, I'd have expected the std to contain but the most basic building blocks from which everything else can be built.
2015-06-23T09:34:35Z ManDay: But that appears not to be the case
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2015-06-23T09:37:40Z ManDay: A different question: I do realize the need for it comes from a design flaw, but assume that I'd want to apply a procedure to a number of arguments which I have in a list, say (list arg1 arg2 arg3) and I want to build something which evaluates to (proc arg1 arg2 arg3) - is there alreay something there for that or do I have to write my own macro.
2015-06-23T09:38:05Z ManDay: (This is an example of a problem the solution to which I'd expect to be part of the core language, btw)
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2015-06-23T09:40:40Z ski: rudybot: eval (apply append (list (list) (list 0) (list 1 2) (list 3 4 5) (list 6 7 8 9)))
2015-06-23T09:40:41Z rudybot: ski: your sandbox is ready
2015-06-23T09:40:41Z rudybot: ski: ; Value: '(0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9)
2015-06-23T09:40:47Z ManDay: I guess the answer to the second is "apply"
2015-06-23T09:40:55Z ManDay: oh sky, beat me to it ;-/
2015-06-23T09:41:01Z ManDay: ski .
2015-06-23T09:41:53Z ski: rudybot: eval ((lambda (x . rest) (list x (reverse rest))) 0 1 2 3)
2015-06-23T09:41:53Z rudybot: ski: ; Value: '(0 (3 2 1))
2015-06-23T09:42:10Z ski: rudybot: eval ((lambda rest (reverse rest)) 0 1 2 3)
2015-06-23T09:42:10Z rudybot: ski: ; Value: '(3 2 1 0)
2015-06-23T09:43:40Z ManDay: Yes I got it. Though it quickly becomes awkward if you want *some* arguments in the chain of args to be taken from a list
2015-06-23T09:43:52Z ManDay: I'd have liked a syntactic construct for that
2015-06-23T09:44:28Z ManDay: (my_func arg1 arg2 ~arg3through5list arg6)   like so....
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2015-06-23T09:46:05Z ManDay: so "reverse" is in the standard but "eval" isn't ....
2015-06-23T09:46:15Z ManDay: I'd really like an answer to my first question :)
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2015-06-23T09:57:53Z ManDay: Is there an elegant solution involving case to realize "if X is a list switch to the case depending on (car X), otherwise do the thing from the case-else clause"?
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2015-06-23T10:09:13Z kephra: ManDay, list? or pair?
2015-06-23T10:10:28Z ManDay: kephra: Hm?
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2015-06-23T10:10:58Z ManDay: By "elegant" i meant somehow unifying it and not call the "else-clause" twice (once from if and once from case)
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2015-06-23T10:12:39Z kephra: (if (pair? foo) (bar xxx (car foo)) xxx) ; would be a typical ideom for tail recursion
2015-06-23T10:12:47Z kephra: *oups*
2015-06-23T10:13:05Z kephra: (if (pair? foo) (bar (baz xxx (car foo)) (cdr foo)) xxx) ; would be a typical ideom for tail recursion
2015-06-23T10:15:13Z ManDay: I do not follow you. Here is what I try to make "elegant": (if (list? X) (case (car X) ((a) ...) ((b) ...) (else DUPL)) DUPL
2015-06-23T10:15:29Z ManDay: As you can see DUPL occurs twice. I'd rather it only occured once (which I'd call more elegant)
2015-06-23T10:15:40Z ManDay: also: )
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2015-06-23T10:16:45Z kephra: what do you expect from the (case (car X) ..
2015-06-23T10:17:01Z kephra: this is either true or raises an error
2015-06-23T10:17:17Z ManDay: I'd expect it execute either of the ...s depending on what's the first element of the list X.
2015-06-23T10:17:25Z kephra: but car is not a conditional, and scheme is not lisp (nil != false)
2015-06-23T10:17:40Z ManDay: what?
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2015-06-23T10:17:53Z ski: rudybot: eval (list? (list))
2015-06-23T10:17:53Z rudybot: ski: ; Value: #t
2015-06-23T10:18:00Z ski: rudybot: eval (car (list))
2015-06-23T10:18:00Z rudybot: ski: error: car: contract violation <NEWLINE>   expected: pair? <NEWLINE>   given: '()
2015-06-23T10:18:09Z kephra: *oups* I should drink coffee before answering
2015-06-23T10:18:22Z kephra: confused the position
2015-06-23T10:19:55Z ski: are you sure you don't want `(pair? X)' or maybe `(and (not (null? X)) (list? X))' instead of `(list? X)' ?
2015-06-23T10:20:18Z ManDay: rudybot: eval (let [(my_list (list 'a 1 2 3))] (if (list? my_list) (case (car my_list) ((a) "a was found") (else "Unknown thingy")) "Unknown thingy"))
2015-06-23T10:20:18Z rudybot: ManDay: your sandbox is ready
2015-06-23T10:20:18Z rudybot: ManDay: ; Value: "a was found"
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2015-06-23T10:20:46Z kephra: ManDay, http://kephra.de/o3proto/dpaste.html <- can you try to explain here what you want to do?
2015-06-23T10:22:42Z ManDay: kephra: I'm afraid I can't explain it better than I just did. I want an equivalent code which does not duplicate "Unknown thingy". Purpose: A function is supposed to "deal with" objects which follow the form (list <Element from a set> <More stuff>) and ignore everything else. Meaning it should ignore both the case where the object is not a list in the first place and also the case where it is a list but the
2015-06-23T10:22:44Z ManDay: first element in the list is not from the specified set.
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2015-06-23T10:23:35Z kephra: http://kephra.de/o3proto/dpaste.html#0EXKJKJ <- perhaps the 2nd line is "more elegant"?
2015-06-23T10:23:53Z ski: rudybot: eval (let ((my-list (list 'a 1 2 3))) (or (and (list? my-list) (case (car my-list) ((a) "a was found") (else #f))) "Unknown thingy"))
2015-06-23T10:23:53Z rudybot: ski: ; Value: "a was found"
2015-06-23T10:23:59Z kephra: but you can of course put the if statement inside the case
2015-06-23T10:24:01Z ski: rudybot: eval (let ((my-list (list))) (or (and (list? my-list) (case (car my-list) ((a) "a was found") (else #f))) "Unknown thingy"))
2015-06-23T10:24:01Z rudybot: ski: error: car: contract violation <NEWLINE>   expected: pair? <NEWLINE>   given: '()
2015-06-23T10:25:01Z ManDay: kephra: Unfortunally, I'm using Linux. Linux is not capable of "Copy & Paste" so I'm unable to copy your link ;-/
2015-06-23T10:25:13Z kephra: *aehm* what?
2015-06-23T10:25:15Z ManDay: what do you mean "put the if inside the case"
2015-06-23T10:25:16Z ski: ManDay : .. and what about the case where the object is a list, but it doesn't have a first element (because it's the empty list, duh) ?
2015-06-23T10:25:28Z ManDay: ski: "Unknown thingy", too.
2015-06-23T10:25:40Z ManDay: though you're right, i missed that one
2015-06-23T10:26:01Z ski: ManDay : .. also, wouldn't it be simpler to simply not pass the objects resulting in `"Unknown thingy"' to this function ?
2015-06-23T10:26:32Z ski: (and if it happens by mistake, why hide the error by returning a string, rather than aborting computation with an error ?)
2015-06-23T10:26:38Z kephra: ski, that why one should use pair? instead of list?
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2015-06-23T10:27:14Z ManDay: ski: No. It's about parsing mathematical compounds. (list + 1 2 3) indicates a summation, (list * 1 2 3) indicates a multiplication and so forth. However, everything which is not of that form is considered a "terminal symbol" and treated "as is"
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2015-06-23T10:27:50Z ski: they may or may not need to check that `my-list' is actually a whole proper list or not. they need to at least check that it's a pair, to be able to do `car' on it
2015-06-23T10:28:57Z ManDay: like    ( 1 + 2 + 3*4 ) * ( 2 + (list X Y Z) )   is written as     (list * (list + 1 2 (list * 3 4)) (list + 2 (list X Y Z)))
2015-06-23T10:29:06Z kephra: ManDay, perhaps we need to fix your cut'n'paste problem - there is only one good reason for this (you are in a high security area, and use a graphical firewall) - everything else is bad config/install
2015-06-23T10:29:23Z ManDay: kephra: No, it's just that X11 is a piece of sh...
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2015-06-23T10:29:36Z ski: ManDay : hmm .. if i'd do it, i'd as soon as possibly translate from this "defaulty" representation of expressions to an internal representation that does away with this "everything which is not of that form" idea
2015-06-23T10:29:38Z ManDay: I can still type-copy the link, hold on
2015-06-23T10:29:56Z ManDay: ski: that *is* my internal representation
2015-06-23T10:30:08Z kephra: ManDay, copy & paste should work between xchat, xterm, browser
2015-06-23T10:30:09Z ski: ManDay : yes, that's what i was complaining about :)
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2015-06-23T10:30:36Z ManDay: kephra: nope. urxvt, tmux and firefox. and I have a touchpad without physical buttons
2015-06-23T10:30:37Z kephra: ManDay, exept, if you use something like Linux in an emulation, Linux behind a graphical Firewall (e.g. VNC), ...
2015-06-23T10:31:34Z kephra: will double clicking highlight it?
2015-06-23T10:31:50Z kephra: if yes the old "clipboard" app might help
2015-06-23T10:31:52Z ManDay: ski: well, perhaps you are right. likely, even. if it were properly done the objects were strictly classified as elements of the underlying ring or not. and thus another terminal symbol (list + 1 2) could exist which is thus not supposed to be treated as a sum.
2015-06-23T10:32:12Z ManDay: kephra: yeah i used to have a prog called "Parcellite"
2015-06-23T10:32:21Z ManDay: maybe try that again
2015-06-23T10:32:24Z kephra: ManDay, you might want to read McEval (SICP) before starting to code
2015-06-23T10:32:53Z kephra: McEval explains how to do such a recursive evaluator
2015-06-23T10:32:56Z ManDay: http://www.aduni.org/courses/sicp/courseware/psets/Problem_Set_10_mc-eval.scm ?
2015-06-23T10:32:57Z rudybot: http://teensy.info/8kKdSNl1wd
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2015-06-23T10:33:06Z ManDay: (pasting from browser to termial works, btw )
2015-06-23T10:33:23Z ManDay: heh, i could paste that from rudybot
2015-06-23T10:33:27Z ManDay: madness X11
2015-06-23T10:33:34Z ski: ManDay : you could define `sum?',`summands',`product?',`factors' and so on ..
2015-06-23T10:34:04Z ManDay: ski: indeed
2015-06-23T10:34:16Z kephra: ManDay, if you can paste into terminal, then you can do: $ firefox <shift-insert>
2015-06-23T10:34:17Z ManDay: i agree i should change the premises. the question as i asked it was silly.
2015-06-23T10:34:45Z ski: rudybot: eval (define (sum? expression) (and (not (null? expression)) (list? expression) (eqv '+ (car expression))))
2015-06-23T10:34:45Z rudybot: ski: Done.
2015-06-23T10:34:46Z ManDay: kephra: from terminal to firefox Shift-Insert doesn't work. only the other way around.
2015-06-23T10:34:59Z ManDay: I have to press a middle mouse button which I don't have
2015-06-23T10:35:07Z ManDay: (I'm lucky to have a mouse)
2015-06-23T10:35:28Z ski: rudybot: (define (summands sum) (cdr sum)) ; Assuming  (car sum)  =>  '+
2015-06-23T10:35:29Z rudybot: ski: Done.
2015-06-23T10:35:36Z ski: &c.
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2015-06-23T10:47:01Z ManDay: Is there a reason why no one answers my question about std<->lib?
2015-06-23T10:47:44Z kephra: perhaps because many use r4rs/r5rs
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2015-06-23T10:48:22Z kephra: a subjective newbie explaination
2015-06-23T10:48:38Z kephra: Scheme vs Lisp is small vs big
2015-06-23T10:48:55Z ManDay: Hm, did you get my question right...?
2015-06-23T10:49:02Z kephra: so people here prefer the small thing - and not the big common lisp and kitchen sink
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2015-06-23T10:49:16Z ManDay: I asked what's the logic behind putting somethings into the Std and some into the Lib - from where I stand it looks rather random.
2015-06-23T10:49:28Z kephra: many (like me) came because they dreamed or did wrote their own scheme
2015-06-23T10:49:42Z ManDay: (and in my opinion there are much too many things in the Std)
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2015-06-23T10:50:04Z kephra: and those used r4rs, because thats the only standard with a regression test
2015-06-23T10:50:40Z kephra: anything higher then r4rs is considered optional in the eyes of many scheme coders
2015-06-23T10:51:00Z kephra: pick something from r6, an other thing from srfi ... and your scheme improved
2015-06-23T10:51:37Z kephra: many toy scheme implementors, dislike r7 - because it tries to become a big scheme, and a small same time - and fails both
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2015-06-23T10:52:46Z kephra: so most likely such an opionated r7 question, wont get an objective answer ... because many do not use r7 at all
2015-06-23T10:53:23Z kephra: well, ManDay - thats not an answer - but perhaps the reason, why there is no answer
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2015-06-23T10:57:01Z kephra: what scheme would need, might be an r8 restart - and most important someone like PfD, who is writing a painful regression test for it - r4rs test is just to lax, e.g. my toy scheme should never pass r4rs without cons cells ;-)
2015-06-23T10:57:15Z kephra: but r4rs does not even notice that I have no cons cells
2015-06-23T10:57:41Z kephra: s/r4rs/r4rs-test/
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2015-06-23T10:59:35Z ManDay: that goes over my head. just had to look up cons cells.
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2015-06-23T11:04:35Z kephra: ManDay, all scheme and lisp implemenations are based on cons cells - a list is just a chain of cells
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2015-06-23T11:04:54Z ManDay: i know
2015-06-23T11:05:03Z kephra: but in my scheme look like, a list is an array, aka vector
2015-06-23T11:05:25Z kephra: and the . is just a symbol, with some special meaning for lambda and cdr
2015-06-23T11:06:46Z kephra: this will break lots of code, as a (cdr foo) is not a reference, but a copy
2015-06-23T11:06:56Z kephra: but the r4rs test does not even notice this
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2015-06-23T11:32:12Z ManDay: g2g
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2015-06-23T11:33:40Z kephra: so my most important wish for a future Scheme, would be a better regression test
2015-06-23T11:33:55Z kephra: without any regression test the standard is not worth to be printed, imho
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2015-06-23T12:14:33Z ManDay: Can anyone explain when I'd need (begin)? It appears that in, say, a let or lambda I can just add multiple expressions and the last will return the value. So why "begin"?
2015-06-23T12:15:47Z LeoNerd: (if)  ?
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2015-06-23T12:16:51Z ManDay: true
2015-06-23T12:17:27Z wasamasa: ManDay: whenever something doesn't use an implicit (begin ...)
2015-06-23T12:18:15Z ManDay: but begin is just aliased to (lambda () ...) right?
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2015-06-23T12:19:19Z vraid: ManDay: no; nested begins turn into one
2015-06-23T12:19:57Z ManDay: so it basically breaks scoping?
2015-06-23T12:20:03Z ManDay: thats awful!
2015-06-23T12:20:17Z wasamasa: lol
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2015-06-23T12:21:49Z vraid: begin has scope?
2015-06-23T12:23:11Z ManDay: hm...
2015-06-23T12:23:41Z ManDay: maybe i still don't understand the difference then. What perceptible effects does "turning into one" have?
2015-06-23T12:24:47Z wasamasa: it's about whether the thing you're using takes it as body or not
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2015-06-23T12:26:56Z ManDay: i dont understand. could you make an example in which i can not replace all BEGINs with LAMBDAs ?
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2015-06-23T13:55:43Z lloda: (begin (begin (define a 2) (define b 3)) a)
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2015-06-23T16:08:55Z pjb: ManDay: to answer your question, you would have to read the discussions of the standardization commitees for r6rs and r7rs.
2015-06-23T16:09:42Z ManDay: pjb: well, would I find a satisfying answer in there or eventually conclude that they contrived a lot of bollocks to justify randomness?
2015-06-23T16:10:02Z ManDay: (or, less polemic: just find that there is no substantial reason)
2015-06-23T16:11:11Z pjb: r6rs is big and includes everything. Nobody likes it.
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2015-06-23T16:12:28Z ManDay: the guys from the commitee probably do
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2015-06-23T16:14:33Z pjb: I doubt it, most of them are on the r7rs commitee…
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2015-06-23T16:16:41Z ManDay: heh, good answer
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2015-06-23T16:24:54Z ijp: "big" "nobody"
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2015-06-23T16:26:11Z ijp: ManDay: almost no-one who goes around criticising r6rs has read it or used it
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2015-06-23T16:26:54Z ijp: foof is the only one I'd actually listen to
2015-06-23T16:27:05Z ManDay: ijp: My question concerned the amount of functions considered part of it rather than part of the stdlib
2015-06-23T16:30:09Z ijp: all four parts of the report constitute the standard
2015-06-23T16:30:14Z ManDay: (clearly, i can't criticize anything. I'm just asking for the REASONS)
2015-06-23T16:30:34Z ManDay: ijp: call it "core language" then. do you know what i mean?
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2015-06-23T16:31:24Z ManDay: "Revised6 Report on the Algorithmic Language Scheme"  vs.  "Revised6 Report on the Algorithmic Language Scheme — Standard Libraries"
2015-06-23T16:31:41Z ManDay: What and who decides whether a function goes into one or the other?
2015-06-23T16:31:52Z ManDay: Well, what. Not who. I don't care about who.
2015-06-23T16:31:54Z pjb: the standardization commitee decides.
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2015-06-23T16:32:04Z ManDay: that's the who. thanks though.
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2015-06-23T16:32:22Z ijp: http://www.r6rs.org/final/html/r6rs-rationale/r6rs-rationale-Z-H-13.html#node_sec_11.1
2015-06-23T16:32:23Z rudybot: http://teensy.info/rQHc2wY6Ok
2015-06-23T16:33:38Z ManDay: "projective use" is kind of a waste of letters in my opinion.
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2015-06-23T16:34:02Z ijp: projected
2015-06-23T16:34:11Z ManDay: yes.
2015-06-23T16:34:25Z pjb: I would have assumed so, indeed.
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2015-06-23T16:36:54Z ijp: ManDay: it's not a great answer, but it's the closest thing to an official one
2015-06-23T16:37:26Z ManDay: ijp: Indeed. Thank you.
2015-06-23T16:37:40Z ManDay: I'd even say it is the official one.
2015-06-23T16:37:46Z ijp: did you get your "begin" issue clarified?
2015-06-23T16:38:05Z ManDay: Not that I recall. I hope I did not forget it having been answered?
2015-06-23T16:38:46Z ijp: ManDay: suppose you want a macro to return two definitions
2015-06-23T16:39:32Z ijp: you need some form way of returning multiple values with the possibility of it splicing it into the scope of the macro expansion
2015-06-23T16:39:44Z ManDay: is that considered proper?
2015-06-23T16:40:03Z ManDay: I thought of definitions as somewhat ad-hoc (and mostly for interactive use) convenience
2015-06-23T16:40:29Z ManDay: basing any logic of the language on it seems wrong?
2015-06-23T16:40:39Z ijp: I have no idea where you got this idea
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2015-06-23T16:42:16Z ManDay: i have never seen them used for anything but convenience?
2015-06-23T16:42:22Z ijp: write bigger programs
2015-06-23T16:42:32Z ManDay: And then?
2015-06-23T16:42:48Z ijp: you'll learn the value of "convenience"
2015-06-23T16:42:56Z ManDay: My programs are already fairly big. And I do use definitions. For convenience. Because I don't want to write everything in a huge letrec or so
2015-06-23T16:43:04Z vanila: ManDay,
2015-06-23T16:44:14Z vanila: you can think of lambda has implicit begin
2015-06-23T16:44:23Z vanila: (lambda (x) (print x) (+ 1 x))
2015-06-23T16:44:25Z vanila: is sugar for
2015-06-23T16:44:31Z vanila: (lambda (x) (begin (print x) (+ 1 x)))
2015-06-23T16:45:13Z vanila: its' possible to do the opposite too
2015-06-23T16:45:25Z ijp: and to avoid circularity, you need to think of (begin foo bar) as ((lambda () bar) foo)
2015-06-23T16:45:25Z vanila: express begin as a macro implemented using lambda
2015-06-23T16:45:32Z vanila: but this creates complex expressions with a lot of lambda
2015-06-23T16:45:40Z vanila: and that can be hard for a compiler to implement
2015-06-23T16:46:00Z ManDay: ijp: could you write out your example with the "macro returning two definitions", perhaps?
2015-06-23T16:46:02Z ijp: but then you notice that if foo is a define, then you need to think harder about scoping
2015-06-23T16:46:03Z vanila: so I think begin is a good choice due to how computers work
2015-06-23T16:46:26Z ijp: rudybot: (define-syntax (define2 a b c d) (begin (define a b) (define c d)))
2015-06-23T16:46:26Z rudybot: ijp: your sandbox is ready
2015-06-23T16:46:26Z rudybot: ijp: error: eval:1:0: begin (possibly implicit): no expression after a sequence of internal definitions <NEWLINE>   in: (begin (begin (define a b) (define c d)))
2015-06-23T16:46:33Z ijp: rudybot: (define-syntax-rule (define2 a b c d) (begin (define a b) (define c d)))
2015-06-23T16:46:33Z rudybot: ijp: Done.
2015-06-23T16:46:48Z ijp: rudybot: (begin (define2 a 1 b 2) (list a b))
2015-06-23T16:46:48Z rudybot: ijp: ; Value: '(1 2)
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2015-06-23T16:47:38Z ManDay: hm. indeed. in that case the "begin" kind of "vanishes" and leaves two commands in the outer scope
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2015-06-23T16:48:18Z ManDay: so the special thing about begin is that it allows to execute two functions without scoping them like a lambda would, is that right?
2015-06-23T16:48:20Z ijp: I suppose in theory you could design a macro system in which you used returned multiple expressions as values rather than begin, but I think that will compose poorly
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2015-06-23T17:02:48Z asdert: hi i wanna write scheme code that does this. I have a list then it should write which element how many times occured?for example i have (1 1 1 2 3 3 3 3  4)  then it should ((1.3)(2.1)(3.4)(4.1))
2015-06-23T17:03:13Z ManDay: you know, it's kind of funny "make-rectangluar" is part of the "core" while "member" is not... :-P
2015-06-23T17:03:25Z ManDay: (so much for "projected use")
2015-06-23T17:03:26Z vanila: asdert, it's a bit tricky with the last element
2015-06-23T17:03:35Z vanila: and what if the list is even length?
2015-06-23T17:03:47Z vanila: or the inputs always odd length?
2015-06-23T17:03:51Z ijp: vanila: why would that be a problem?
2015-06-23T17:04:04Z ijp: asdert: what have you written so far?
2015-06-23T17:04:24Z asdert: for this purpose i write this code https://paste.kde.org/ptayh7z2o
2015-06-23T17:04:52Z asdert: but there is an error like this:  cadr: contract violation   expected: (cons/c any/c pair?)   given: '(4)
2015-06-23T17:05:01Z vanila: why do you do  (aa-helper list 1)  not (aa-helper (cdr list) (car list))
2015-06-23T17:06:16Z asdert: i do not know
2015-06-23T17:06:23Z asdert: does it matter?
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2015-06-23T17:07:33Z vanila: yes helpes to think about the problms
2015-06-23T17:07:49Z vanila: I thought it was like this
2015-06-23T17:07:55Z vanila: 1 1 1 2 3 3 3 3 4
2015-06-23T17:07:58Z vanila:   1 1 1 2 3 3 3 3 4
2015-06-23T17:08:03Z vanila: matching them up
2015-06-23T17:08:18Z vanila: but your code is different...
2015-06-23T17:08:29Z vanila: so im not sure what you intend to do
2015-06-23T17:08:37Z vanila: "aa"?
2015-06-23T17:09:33Z asdert: as i said in above it counts for each element how many times occured
2015-06-23T17:09:48Z vanila: oh so its run length encoding
2015-06-23T17:10:35Z vanila: yo ushould start by splitting the list into head and tail, then collecting up a run
2015-06-23T17:11:24Z asdert: i did not understand what you mean . i just started to study scheme
2015-06-23T17:12:48Z vanila: (define (run-start list) (run-collect (car list) 1 (cdr list)))
2015-06-23T17:12:49Z ijp: vanila: not even run-length encoding. just tabultation
2015-06-23T17:13:07Z vanila: (define (run-collect elt len list) (cond ...
2015-06-23T17:13:20Z vanila: cases (null? list) => emit run and finish
2015-06-23T17:13:21Z ijp: I think
2015-06-23T17:13:40Z vanila: (eq? elt (car list)) => continue collecting with len increased
2015-06-23T17:13:54Z vanila: else => emit run and then do run-start
2015-06-23T17:14:13Z ManDay: Does anyone know why the line numbers given in an error are always off by one w.r.t the source file?
2015-06-23T17:14:18Z ManDay: (guile)
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2015-06-23T17:21:56Z pjb: ManDay: Nobody knows.  If anybody knew, it would have been debugged.  Try it!
2015-06-23T17:22:13Z ManDay: pjb: Try what?
2015-06-23T17:22:14Z ijp: ManDay: they are?
2015-06-23T17:22:18Z ManDay: Are what?
2015-06-23T17:22:24Z pjb: ManDay: try to debug it.
2015-06-23T17:22:31Z ManDay: Debug what?
2015-06-23T17:22:35Z ManDay: guile?
2015-06-23T17:22:51Z ManDay: I'm really busy practicing scheme right now, sorry...
2015-06-23T17:23:11Z ManDay: also, I'd have to recomp with symbols and all that :-/
2015-06-23T17:23:13Z pjb: asdert: it's not a good idea to encode data into floating point numbers, since they are inexact.  You can easily find integers that have more significant digits than what you can store in a floating point number.
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2015-06-23T17:25:33Z pjb: asdert: for example, (inexact->exact (truncate 123456789123456789123456789.123)) --> 123456789123456791337762816 which is wrong.
2015-06-23T17:25:57Z pjb: so if you have 123 occurences of 123456789123456789123456789 in your list, you will get wrong results.
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2015-06-23T17:27:05Z ijp: it's supposed to be a cons of two numbers, not a floating point number
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2015-06-23T17:27:37Z pjb: Who knows? Don't make assumptions.
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2015-06-23T17:30:11Z ijp: it's perfectly clear to everyone with half a mid
2015-06-23T17:30:56Z pjb: We're talking about computers there.   (cdr '(1.3)) --> ()
2015-06-23T17:31:15Z pjb: In scheme, there's not a lot of syntax, but you still have to fucking respect it!
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2015-06-23T17:33:36Z ijp: why do you respond to newbies questions, I won't say you answer them, if you aren't going to try and understand their problem?
2015-06-23T17:34:38Z ijp: we all have our days when we are rude and not the best we can be, but I've never seen you not be an insufferable ass
2015-06-23T17:35:50Z pjb: The understanding answers has already been give. Since nobody noted the syntax confusion, I completed the answer.
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2015-06-23T17:37:37Z ManDay: pjb: you really made some effort to type that number of yours there...
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2015-06-23T17:37:49Z ManDay: Perfect repetition of 123456789 :D
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2015-06-23T17:38:31Z ManDay: pjb's version of "sadfsadfsa" surely is "abcdefghijklmopqrstuvwxyz"
2015-06-23T17:38:38Z ManDay: ;-)
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2015-06-23T17:40:42Z vanila: pjb: the way you talk to people in this channel is abusive and makes it uncomfortable, please stop
2015-06-23T17:41:40Z ManDay: vanila: I think his swearing was meant more of a joke
2015-06-23T17:41:49Z vanila: im not just talking about today
2015-06-23T17:41:50Z pjb: But what's the problem with you? Don't you see that he typed (1.3) instead of (1 . 3) and that this makes his program all wrong?
2015-06-23T17:41:56Z pjb: Is there no sanity left here?
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2015-06-23T19:24:38Z ManDay: I'm writing a lot of lengthy constructs I think there is a library function for. To pick an example: Is my writing the following okay or can I go shorter for "remove 2nd from list (assuming it has two elements)":   (append (list (car X)) (cadr X))   ?
2015-06-23T19:25:14Z vanila: you could generalize that to: delete n'th element
2015-06-23T19:25:25Z vanila: and make a library of more advanced list functions
2015-06-23T19:26:41Z ManDay: no okay, i get that.
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2015-06-23T19:27:10Z wasamasa: removing the nth sounds sort of wrong
2015-06-23T19:27:14Z ManDay: So the stdlib doesn't have that? Then i'm okay. I just wanted to make sure I'm not missing a whole lot of already existing functions and thus keep reinventing the wheel
2015-06-23T19:27:15Z wasamasa: what is your actual goal?
2015-06-23T19:27:35Z wasamasa: depending on what you're doing, you might be interested in matching and destructuring data
2015-06-23T19:27:37Z ManDay: wasamasa: its part of an awkward recursion, let me explain:
2015-06-23T19:28:02Z ManDay: well, it's actually a lengthy thing to explain. i try the short version
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2015-06-23T19:28:22Z ManDay: oh sorry, even that takes 10 minutes...
2015-06-23T19:28:26Z ManDay: let me finish the code first
2015-06-23T19:28:35Z wasamasa: also, what's this stdlib you're speaking of
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2015-06-23T19:28:38Z ManDay: well. okay: general idea:
2015-06-23T19:28:47Z ManDay: (stdlib, the standard libaries)
2015-06-23T19:28:52Z wasamasa: there's a standard your implementation fulfills and extra stuff specific to your implementation
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2015-06-23T19:30:44Z wasamasa: if you want a standard library, use python I guess
2015-06-23T19:31:51Z ManDay: The thing here is a double recoursion: There is an object type T (a specifically crafted list) which consists of an operator (the first element in the list) and its operands, e.g. (+ 1 2 3 4)  denotes addition. the operands can be of type T, too, making arbitary deeply nested constructs possible. Now I write a method "conjugate" which conjugates all operands. therefore the recursion is a) recursing over the
2015-06-23T19:31:52Z ManDay: operands in one object of type T and b) recursing into nested structures).
2015-06-23T19:32:05Z ManDay: I'll paste the code when I'm done and you can tell me what you think about it
2015-06-23T19:32:39Z ManDay: fuck you and your insults
2015-06-23T19:32:49Z wasamasa: ?
2015-06-23T19:32:54Z vanila: ManDay, you should put them on /ignore
2015-06-23T19:32:57Z ManDay: it was a joke. python is horrible
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2015-06-23T19:34:00Z wasamasa: ManDay: so you're writing a scheme interpreter?
2015-06-23T19:34:14Z wasamasa: ManDay: what exactly does "conjugate" mean outside of natural languages?
2015-06-23T19:34:32Z ManDay: conjugate as conjugation of complex numbers
2015-06-23T19:35:02Z ManDay: just give me a few m's and I'll paste
2015-06-23T19:35:08Z ManDay: (and explain were needed)
2015-06-23T19:35:44Z wasamasa: sounds to me like you're iterating and recursing
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2015-06-23T19:35:57Z wasamasa: just because you use recursion to iterate, doesn't make it any less iterative
2015-06-23T19:36:51Z ManDay: is there some meaning to "iterative". if I have to handle multiple elements it's always "iterative", no? Or are you suggesting "iterative" is a flaw?
2015-06-23T19:37:46Z wasamasa: I guess it's about whether you increase the chances of blowing the stack or not
2015-06-23T19:38:06Z ManDay: i don't understand. everything i do is tail recursive
2015-06-23T19:38:13Z ManDay: including the iteration
2015-06-23T19:39:22Z wasamasa: or whether you're moving in one dimension or descend into deeper nesting levels of the data structure you're processing
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2015-06-23T19:46:56Z ManDay: sorry, another question before i can submit: is there a shorter form for producing (x y . z) without quasiquote than (cons x (cons y z)) ?
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2015-06-23T19:48:00Z ManDay: oh nvm
2015-06-23T19:48:03Z ManDay: forget it
2015-06-23T19:48:35Z ManDay: i guess there is not.
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2015-06-23T19:50:13Z ManDay: wasamasa: you were right. it was a bug. fixing the bug removed the need for "removing the 2nd element"!
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2015-06-23T19:56:15Z ManDay: In fact I wish Guile would abide to R6 and not return list? for '()
2015-06-23T19:56:48Z taylanub: R6RS says '() is not a list?  that sounds absurd...
2015-06-23T19:56:59Z taylanub checks
2015-06-23T19:58:33Z taylanub: ManDay: (list? '()) => #t per R6RS, or did I misinterpret you?
2015-06-23T19:58:43Z ManDay: http://www.r6rs.org/final/html/r6rs/r6rs-Z-H-14.html#node_sec_11.1 taylanub
2015-06-23T19:58:57Z ManDay: It's apparently self-contradictory then
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2015-06-23T19:59:12Z ManDay: oh, my bad!
2015-06-23T19:59:25Z ManDay: It does not mention list? there! I'm very sorry!
2015-06-23T19:59:35Z taylanub: no problem :)
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2015-06-23T20:12:55Z ski: rudybot: eval (list* 0 1 (list 2 3))  ; ManDay
2015-06-23T20:12:56Z rudybot: ski: ; Value: '(0 1 2 3)
2015-06-23T20:13:02Z ski: .. oh, they left
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2015-06-23T20:38:29Z ManDay: Is there any procedure which sorts a list of arbitary items uniquely? It doesn't matter how it sorts it. Given the same elements (like a set) it should just put them into a reproducible order.
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2015-06-24T01:32:03Z Niac: Unbound variable: nil
2015-06-24T01:32:13Z Niac: i use guile
2015-06-24T01:32:30Z ijp: not a bug
2015-06-24T01:32:54Z Niac: then what it is
2015-06-24T01:33:08Z ijp: the empty list is '(), the false value is #f
2015-06-24T01:33:58Z Niac: [#scheme] ABORT: (unbound-variable)
2015-06-24T01:34:02Z ijp: one of those is what you want, but I'm curious as to what you are reading that uses "nil"
2015-06-24T01:34:21Z Niac:   56: 16       (if (null? items) nil ...)
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2015-06-24T01:34:34Z Niac: items is a list
2015-06-24T01:34:38Z ijp: so you want '()
2015-06-24T01:35:02Z ijp: (probably)
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2015-06-24T01:35:46Z Niac: so what nil is for?
2015-06-24T01:36:15Z ijp: Niac: what are you reading?
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2015-06-24T01:37:35Z Niac: sicp
2015-06-24T01:38:06Z ijp: hmm, I guess MIT Scheme must bind nil to '()
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2015-06-24T01:39:19Z ski: rudybot: eval (define nil '())  ; Niac, try putting this definition at the top of your source code ?
2015-06-24T01:39:20Z rudybot: ski: Done.
2015-06-24T01:39:50Z Niac: so even they are scheme interpretor ,but they are defferent
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2015-06-24T01:40:22Z Niac: (define nil '())
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2015-06-24T01:40:24Z Niac: nil
2015-06-24T01:40:29Z ijp: we could go on at length about that, but it's better if we don't
2015-06-24T01:40:39Z Niac: (nil)
2015-06-24T01:41:19Z ijp: there is a footnote about this in the chapter
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2015-06-24T01:43:44Z Niac: define nil as '() works
2015-06-24T01:44:44Z ijp: ski: hows tricks? still at chalmers?
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2015-06-24T02:54:43Z Niac: how to define for-each in scheme
2015-06-24T02:56:00Z pjb: By writing a little function.
2015-06-24T02:56:13Z pjb: (define for-each (lambda …)
2015-06-24T02:56:14Z pjb: )
2015-06-24T02:56:43Z Niac: more details
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2015-06-24T02:56:49Z pjb: More specifications.
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2015-06-24T02:57:28Z pjb: What would be your function signature?
2015-06-24T02:57:53Z Niac: (if (null? items)...
2015-06-24T02:58:10Z pjb: A function signature is a list of parameters with their type, and the type of the result.
2015-06-24T02:58:34Z Niac: items is a list
2015-06-24T02:58:48Z pjb: So: (for-each list) ?
2015-06-24T02:59:06Z Niac: like the foreach in php
2015-06-24T02:59:13Z pjb: I don't know php.
2015-06-24T02:59:48Z Niac: just apply the function on each item in the list
2015-06-24T02:59:55Z pjb: what function?
2015-06-24T03:00:40Z Niac: something like (lambda (x) (+ x 2))
2015-06-24T03:00:54Z pjb: I know what a function is.
2015-06-24T03:01:09Z pjb: You're takling about THE function. What function are YOU talking about?
2015-06-24T03:01:21Z mikeyhc: Niac: just use map
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2015-06-24T03:02:08Z pjb: mikeyhc: map doesn't specify the order of application of the procedure on the elements of the list.  for-each does.
2015-06-24T03:03:08Z pjb: Niac: you still haven't answered my first question. What would be your function signature?
2015-06-24T03:03:11Z Niac: i know map ,but i just doing some expractices
2015-06-24T03:03:33Z pjb: Before writing any code, you first need to write some specifications.
2015-06-24T03:03:49Z pjb: When you're down to writing procedures, you need to specify the signature of the procedure.
2015-06-24T03:04:08Z pjb: So we may know what we're talking about.
2015-06-24T03:04:10Z Niac: (define (for-each proc items)
2015-06-24T03:04:13Z Niac: (define (for-each proc items)
2015-06-24T03:04:15Z pjb: ok.
2015-06-24T03:04:18Z Niac: (define (for-each proc items)
2015-06-24T03:04:23Z pjb: And what does it must do?
2015-06-24T03:04:35Z Niac: (define (for-each proc items)
2015-06-24T03:05:24Z Niac: just call the proc on each item
2015-06-24T03:05:36Z pjb: ok.  Any particular order?
2015-06-24T03:05:47Z pjb: What if there's no item in the items list?
2015-06-24T03:06:00Z Niac: if no item do nothing
2015-06-24T03:06:04Z pjb: ok
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2015-06-24T03:06:28Z pjb: and if there are, it starts by which item?
2015-06-24T03:06:41Z pjb: Does it fork threads to call proc in parallel?
2015-06-24T03:06:52Z Niac: the first ,the second...the last
2015-06-24T03:07:01Z pjb: ok, so sequentially in the order of the items list. Good.
2015-06-24T03:07:09Z pjb: So now you know what to do.
2015-06-24T03:07:32Z Niac: i dont know how to do it
2015-06-24T03:07:58Z pjb: (define (for-each proc items)  if no item do nothing else just call the proc on each item the first ,the second...the last)
2015-06-24T03:08:05Z pjb: Yes, you know, you just told us!
2015-06-24T03:08:21Z pjb: Now translate this English into scheme. You even know how to do it!
2015-06-24T03:08:29Z pjb: You've told us above.
2015-06-24T03:08:45Z pjb: (define (for-each proc items) (if (null? items) do nothing else just call the proc on each item the first ,the second...the last))
2015-06-24T03:08:48Z pjb: go on.
2015-06-24T03:09:08Z pjb: One question you haven't answered is what for-each must return?
2015-06-24T03:09:54Z Niac: return nothing
2015-06-24T03:10:53Z pjb: ok.  But in scheme, returning nothing has some complication. We could use value, but then we'd have to call the procedure with call-with-values.   So it's better to return some value, like #f () or 'nil.
2015-06-24T03:10:57Z Niac: http://paste.lisp.org/display/150418
2015-06-24T03:11:44Z pjb: you lack a begin.  ((proc (car items)) …) will call the result of (proc (car items)) which must be a procedure, otherwise it will fail.
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2015-06-24T03:12:12Z pjb: (begin …) is like in C { … }, or like in pascal BEGIN … END.
2015-06-24T03:14:14Z pjb: You said that the signature for for-each was: (for-each proc items).  Therefore when you call it, you must provide a proc and an items list.  You cannot call it with just (cdr items).
2015-06-24T03:14:33Z pjb: You already know everything, but you don't listen to yourself…
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2015-06-24T03:18:59Z Niac: (for-each proc (car (cdr items)))
2015-06-24T03:19:32Z Niac: does'nt work
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2015-06-24T03:42:01Z pjb: Niac: the signature says: (for-each proc items).  Items must be a list, not an element. (car (cdr items)) is the second element.  Once you've processed the first element, you want to process all the rest elements. So (cdr items), which is a list.
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2015-06-24T03:43:28Z Niac: http://paste.lisp.org/display/150419
2015-06-24T03:43:50Z pjb: sounds good.
2015-06-24T03:43:54Z pjb: Now write a few tests.
2015-06-24T03:45:41Z Niac: pjb: how  to write tests
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2015-06-24T03:47:07Z pjb: I write a function that performs a bunch of asserts.
2015-06-24T03:47:19Z pjb: (define (test/for-each) (assert (let ((called #f)) (for-each (lambda (x) (set! called #t)) '()) (not called))) 'success)
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2015-06-24T03:47:30Z pjb: Here I test that proc is not called when the list is empty.
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2015-06-24T03:49:36Z pjb: If you don't have assert in your scheme or a library, you may use http://paste.lisp.org/+382C
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2015-06-24T03:52:48Z pjb: Niac: for a more complete example, have a look at: http://paste.lisp.org/+382D
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2015-06-24T03:55:19Z pjb: there are libraries that let you write tests perhaps more easily, and with better reports and statistics, if you need to do more sophisticated testing.
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2015-06-24T05:52:31Z ecraven: does any scheme come with some sort of oracle (database server) bindings?
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2015-06-24T06:49:23Z pjb: ecraven: bigloo http://bigloo-lib.sourceforge.net/bigloo-lib_6.html
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2015-06-24T08:29:53Z Niac:  Unbound variable: true
2015-06-24T08:30:09Z Niac: in guile
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2015-06-24T08:56:40Z taylanub: Niac: 'true' is just a variable name in Scheme.  if you don't bind it, it's unbound.
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2015-06-24T08:57:15Z taylanub: if you were looking for the boolean true constant object, that's represented as #t or #true  (the latter has only recently been standardized and might not work on all systems)
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2015-06-25T08:35:46Z crocket: Is scheme functional by default?
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2015-06-25T09:02:31Z taylanub: crocket: "functional" is a vague term.  Scheme allows mutating variables as well as most of its standard data structure types, but mildly discourages doing so, and generally endorses a functional-programming style.
2015-06-25T09:02:57Z crocket: taylanub, In clojure, every data structure is immutable by default.
2015-06-25T09:03:07Z crocket: It's not trivial to get mutable data structures in clojure.
2015-06-25T09:03:31Z taylanub: that's called "purely functional" AFAIK
2015-06-25T09:03:46Z taylanub: made popular by Haskell if I'm not mistaken
2015-06-25T09:03:59Z crocket: It's not purely functional since clojure allows you to create mutable sequences from immutable ones.
2015-06-25T09:04:18Z taylanub: hm, ok
2015-06-25T09:04:36Z crocket: But, dealing with mutation causes headache in your program design.
2015-06-25T09:05:22Z taylanub: Scheme's standard library mostly only has mutable data structures.  (literals in code are allowed to be immutable as a special-case, since they might reside in read-only segments of the program, as part of the source-code)
2015-06-25T09:05:33Z crocket: How does Racket discourage you from turning you into a mutant ninja?
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2015-06-25T09:05:58Z taylanub: wut
2015-06-25T09:06:15Z crocket: How does Racket discourage you from becoming a mutant ninja?
2015-06-25T09:06:35Z taylanub: this conversation just took an interesting turn but I'm afraid I need to get back to work
2015-06-25T09:06:47Z crocket: You don't get the pun
2015-06-25T09:06:57Z crocket: How does Racket discourage you from mutating things?
2015-06-25T09:07:18Z taylanub: I don't know much Racket.  Scheme does so by suffixing mutating operations with !
2015-06-25T09:07:31Z taylanub: Racket probably has more immutable data structures in its stdlib
2015-06-25T09:07:41Z taylanub: notably, their cons cells are immutable IIRC
2015-06-25T09:07:57Z taylanub: I need to get back to work anyhow now though
2015-06-25T09:08:36Z crocket: It sounds like mutation by default.
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2015-06-25T16:59:29Z leppie: Is there any major Scheme implementation that has a case where if something is eq?, but not equal? ?
2015-06-25T16:59:45Z LeoNerd: That's not allowed
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2015-06-25T17:01:26Z leppie: LeoNerd: Is it specifically mentioned in the spec?
2015-06-25T17:01:36Z LeoNerd: I'd hope so
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2015-06-25T17:08:27Z leppie: The spec says if eq? #t, then eqv? must be #t, but gets a bit complicated with equal?
2015-06-25T17:08:36Z leppie: I would say it implies that
2015-06-25T17:10:25Z leppie: Actually it says it differently.
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2015-06-25T17:10:59Z leppie: It says eq? can only be #t if eqv? is #t
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2015-06-25T17:13:30Z leppie: OK, it seems it is unspecified as (let ((n (+ 2 3))) (eq? n n)) is unspecified and can be false due to optimizations, but it would be eqv?
2015-06-25T17:14:05Z LeoNerd: Umm? Pretty sure that  (eq? n n)  is required to be true regardless of what n is
2015-06-25T17:15:22Z leppie: The compiler is actually free to turn it into (eq? (+ 2 3) (+ 2 3)) which would be #f
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2015-06-25T17:17:44Z leppie: Or #t depending if those numbers are interned or constant folding was applied
2015-06-25T17:18:35Z LeoNerd: Hmmm
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2015-06-25T17:21:35Z leppie: I would still find it odd for any implementation to return false for that
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2015-06-25T17:29:19Z taylanub: LeoNerd: eq? has entirely unspecified behavior on number and character arguments
2015-06-25T17:29:49Z taylanub: well, not entirely unspecified.  it has to return a boolean, but that's about it.
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2015-06-25T17:31:52Z taylanub: leppie: "If two objects are eqv?, they must be equal? as well."  R7RS section 6.1 Equivalence predicates, page 32, specification of 'equal?'
2015-06-25T17:32:40Z leppie: taylanub: Thanks, but with eq? all bets are off?
2015-06-25T17:33:06Z taylanub: leppie: eq? simply "doesn't work" on numbers and characters.
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2015-06-25T17:33:39Z taylanub: it will return a boolean but which one is unspecified, if both arguments are a number or both a character
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2015-06-25T17:35:09Z leppie: OK, but back to the question, is there any Scheme when eq? is #t that will return false for eqv? or equal? ?
2015-06-25T17:35:42Z taylanub: note also that Scheme tries really hard to mask a difference such as "values" and "objects", so (let ((n (+ 2 3))) (eq? n n)) and (eq? (+ 2 3) (+ 2 3)) are simply semantically equivalent.  there's only one '5' in Scheme, and eq? is given '5' as both arguments in both cases, so per Scheme there's *no* difference between those two calls to eq?.
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2015-06-25T17:37:10Z taylanub: leppie: eq? must return false if eqv? returns false.  oh, I realize this contradicts what I previously said: eq?'s return value is only unspecified when you give it the same number/character as both arguments.  if they are different as per eqv?, they are also different as per eq?.
2015-06-25T17:37:13Z taylanub: sorry about the confusion
2015-06-25T17:38:04Z taylanub: so, I don't know about potentially broken implementations, but as per the standard eq? must never return true for two objects for which eqv? returns false.
2015-06-25T17:39:00Z leppie: well said :) so that would imply if eq? is #t, eqv? cannot be false
2015-06-25T17:39:26Z taylanub: indeed
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2015-06-25T17:40:42Z taylanub: it may only return #f in some cases where eqv? returns #t.  it only ever makes "finer" distinctions between objects, it's just that it's not specified what these distinctions are (only numbers and characters can have them though)
2015-06-25T17:41:26Z taylanub: (in reality, that distinction is their "pointer" value, where there might be multiple instances of the same number or character on the heap)
2015-06-25T17:42:32Z leppie: taylanub: yes, that is how I and I would guess anyone would implement it
2015-06-25T17:42:45Z vraid: isn't the spirit of eq? to check for identity, while eqv? checks for equivalence? so eq? being #t with eqv? being #f would mean that an object is not equivalent to itself?
2015-06-25T17:44:27Z taylanub: vraid: Scheme tries to keep things abstract, so there's no difference between being equivalent and being identical
2015-06-25T17:44:57Z leppie: vraid: from an implementors point of view, yes
2015-06-25T17:45:32Z taylanub: the concept of (pointer) identity is too low-level for Scheme, so it's only mentioned in rationale if at all
2015-06-25T17:49:29Z Riastradh: The idea behind EQV? is to answer whether two objects are operationally indistinguishable, and an associated idea is that it should be fast, although its running time is not actually bounded in the presence of unbounded-precision integers.
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2015-06-25T18:29:44Z zacts: hi schemers
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2015-06-25T18:43:28Z pjb: leppie: the specification of r5rs equal? implies that (eqv? x y) ==> (equal? x v), if equal? terminates.   Equal? recursively compares the contents of pairs, vectors, and strings, applying eqv? on other objects such as numbers and symbols. A rule of thumb is that objects are generally equal? if they print the same. Equal? may fail to terminate if its arguments are circular data structures.
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2015-06-25T18:44:54Z pjb: LeoNerd: r5rs specifically gives as example: (let ((n (+ 2 3))) (eq? n n)) ===>  unspecified
2015-06-25T18:45:22Z LeoNerd: Yah so I see
2015-06-25T18:45:31Z pjb: LeoNerd: this is to allow implementations where numbers are boxed, and where (since numbers are immutable), a copy of the boxed numbers is made when functions are called.
2015-06-25T18:45:40Z LeoNerd nod
2015-06-25T18:45:41Z LeoNerd: I seee
2015-06-25T18:45:55Z pjb: Of course, this combination might be a poor implementation choice, but it may be necessary on some targets.
2015-06-25T18:46:14Z pjb: Notice we have the same kind of specification in Common Lisp.
2015-06-25T18:47:23Z pjb: leppie: unwinding the let could be allowed only if the compiler can prove that the initialization expression for n cannot have side effects.  Sometimes, there are implicit side effects: allocating memory (eg. duplicating boxed objects), and therefore this would be problematic.
2015-06-25T18:47:51Z pjb: It all depends on the optimizations and inlining the compiler is able to do.
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2015-06-25T18:48:52Z pjb: eq? on numbers and characters doesn't say something about the arguments, but about the implementation.
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2015-06-25T19:05:28Z leppie: pjb: R6RS says equal? must terminate though. What does R7RS say?
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2015-06-25T19:08:48Z pjb: It's very simple anyways: (eq? a b) => (eqv? a b) => (equal? a b)
2015-06-25T19:10:18Z pjb: Despite the arrow used in the implication symbol, it can be used in both directions: t -> t and f <- f
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2015-06-25T19:11:30Z taylanub: leppie: you can download the R7RS...  it has the same guarantee; must work on cyclic structures as well.
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2015-06-25T20:21:34Z ecraven: Riastradh: would you happen to know a simple project that demonstrates how to use CREF to create stand-alone load-option for MIT/GNU Scheme? I have several things using the FFI that I'd like to package (right now I can only use one FFI thing at a time). Is there even a way to build things out-of-tree or at least after MIT/GNU Scheme is built, and not integrated with the normal build process?
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2015-06-26T03:21:50Z mmercer: hi. ##lisp is dead, so I thought I'd ask in separate channels.. what lisp follows functional programming paradigm the most?
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2015-06-26T03:29:54Z mmercer: CL, scheme, clojure, which one is the most functional?
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2015-06-26T03:31:09Z Niac: guile> (define (power x n) (if (= n 0)
2015-06-26T03:31:09Z Niac:                 1
2015-06-26T03:31:09Z Niac:                 (power (* x x) (- n 1))))
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2015-06-26T03:31:25Z Niac: always return 1
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2015-06-26T03:37:28Z Niac: so how can i return the result of x* x*x......
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2015-06-26T03:42:55Z ijp: mmercer: not CL. you can argue for the other two
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2015-06-26T03:43:43Z ijp: Niac: you aren't using your x argument
2015-06-26T03:44:07Z Niac: how to use it
2015-06-26T03:44:52Z ijp: have you ever written a program before?
2015-06-26T03:45:02Z Niac: yes
2015-06-26T03:45:19Z Niac: use to php ,a litter clojure
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2015-06-26T03:46:50Z ijp: can you write this power function in a non-tail recursive fashion?
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2015-06-26T03:47:39Z Niac: i cant
2015-06-26T03:48:13Z Niac: i am confused with recursive
2015-06-26T03:48:54Z ijp: do you remember the definition of exponentiation from school?
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2015-06-26T04:01:31Z mmercer: ijp which language in your opinion supports functional style better, scheme or clojure?
2015-06-26T04:01:55Z ijp: my opinion is that it is an uninteresting question
2015-06-26T04:02:32Z ijp: you could argue for clojure on the basis that its standard library is built around persistent datastructures
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2015-06-26T05:12:25Z pjb: Niac: the problem is that your power function has two base cases. (cond ((= 0 n) 1) ((= 1 n) …)  …) ;also, your else branch is false, if (power x n) = xⁿ.
2015-06-26T05:13:41Z pjb: Niac: sometimes, you have to do some pre-processing, so that you may write the recursive part more simply.  If you excluded n<=0 then you could test as base case only (= 1 n).
2015-06-26T05:14:39Z pjb: Niac: perhaps you could first try to define it as a non-terminal recursive function, and transform it to make it a tail recursion later?
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2015-06-26T05:42:11Z Niac: guile> (define (power x n) (cond ((= n 0) 1）
2015-06-26T05:42:12Z Niac:               ((= n 1) x)
2015-06-26T05:42:12Z Niac:         (else (power (* x x) (- n 1)))))
2015-06-26T05:42:42Z Niac: not work yet
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2015-06-26T05:46:07Z pjb: Yes, this is because your else branch is wrong.
2015-06-26T05:46:40Z pjb: You should take it mathematically.  (power x 0) = 1, this is good.  (power x 1) = x, still good.
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2015-06-26T05:48:16Z pjb: with n>1, (power x n) = (power x² n-1) = (power (x²)²  n-2) = (power ((x²)²)²  n-3) …
2015-06-26T05:49:19Z pjb: so eventually, = (power x²⁽ⁿ⁻¹⁾ n-(n-1))
2015-06-26T05:49:41Z pjb: (power x n) = (power x²⁽ⁿ⁻¹⁾ 1) =  x²⁽ⁿ⁻¹⁾ ; this is what you've programmed.
2015-06-26T05:49:44Z pjb: What did you want?
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2015-06-26T05:50:19Z pjb: I must have a bug in my maths…
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2015-06-26T05:51:02Z pjb: I must stop at n-2.
2015-06-26T05:52:06Z pjb: Err, no, it's ok.
2015-06-26T05:52:41Z pjb: It's for n>1 , (power x n) = (power x²⁽ⁿ⁻¹⁾ 1) =  x²⁽ⁿ⁻¹⁾.
2015-06-26T05:53:10Z pjb: Niac: so what did you want it to compute?
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2015-06-26T05:53:55Z pjb: ETOOMM
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2015-06-26T05:55:22Z pjb: Niac: you got an ETOOMM?
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2015-06-26T06:12:17Z Niac: (define (power x n) (define (pow x n r)
2015-06-26T06:12:17Z Niac:               (cond ((= n 0) r)
2015-06-26T06:12:18Z Niac:                 (else (pow x (- n 1) (* r x)))))
2015-06-26T06:12:18Z Niac:         (pow x n 1))
2015-06-26T06:12:24Z Niac: it works
2015-06-26T06:13:42Z Niac: but i still dont know how to design a recursive
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2015-06-26T06:14:27Z Niac: is there some basic rules behind the nature of recursive?
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2015-06-26T06:16:33Z pjb: Niac: no, just the function calls itself.
2015-06-26T06:17:25Z pjb: Niac: now, notice that when n is even, (pow x (/ n 2) (* x x)) will provide a better efficiency. (if n is odd, you have to do your else.
2015-06-26T06:17:35Z pjb: err, (* r r).
2015-06-26T06:18:05Z pjb: actually pow doesn't need the x parameter, since it's available in the outer scope, and it doesn't change it.
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2015-06-26T06:19:35Z pjb: http://www.htdp.org/ has chapters about recursion.  https://mitpress.mit.edu/books/little-schemer is all about recursion.
2015-06-26T06:21:51Z Niac: thanks ,i was reading the sicp
2015-06-26T06:22:42Z Niac: i learn a lot,but i have more questions
2015-06-26T06:22:57Z pjb: http://kysmykseka.net/koti/wizardry/Programming/Lisp/Scheme/The%20Little%20Schemer%204th%20Ed.pdf
2015-06-26T06:22:57Z rudybot: http://teensy.info/gqVMrCdatf
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2015-06-26T08:55:47Z pjb: http://kysmykseka.net/koti/wizardry/Programming/Lisp/Scheme/The%20Little%20Schemer%204th%20Ed.pdf
2015-06-26T08:55:47Z rudybot: http://teensy.info/gqVMrCdatf
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2015-06-27T02:05:36Z zacts: hi
2015-06-27T02:05:41Z zacts: I have a question on OOP?
2015-06-27T02:05:46Z zacts: SICPish
2015-06-27T02:05:58Z zacts: but what are the fundamental requirements for OOP in scheme?
2015-06-27T02:06:18Z zacts: do you only need the ability to define procedures + set!
2015-06-27T02:06:25Z zacts: or am I missing an element?
2015-06-27T02:06:42Z vanila: shouldn't you have objects?
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2015-06-27T02:07:38Z ijp: you don't even need set. mutation isn't really fundamental to OOP
2015-06-27T02:08:48Z zacts: ijp: oh interesting
2015-06-27T02:08:50Z zacts: vanila: ?
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2015-06-27T02:09:05Z zacts: vanila what is your definition of an object?
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2015-06-27T02:09:28Z zacts: and regardless, can't you implement whatever your definition of an object is via set! and procedures?
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2015-06-27T02:09:51Z zacts: ijp: do you have any SICP sections / other doc on why mutation isn't fundamental to OOP?
2015-06-27T02:10:10Z ijp: well, why would it be?
2015-06-27T02:10:22Z zacts: anyway, my reason for asking this is that I've been questioning with the idea of OOP being a subset of Functional Programming
2015-06-27T02:10:33Z ijp: I mean, OOP isn't exactly well defined anyway
2015-06-27T02:10:36Z zacts: (but please excuse me if I'm too naive with newbie understandings)
2015-06-27T02:10:41Z vanila: oo is not a subset of  fp
2015-06-27T02:10:45Z zacts: vanila: ok
2015-06-27T02:10:54Z zacts: why is it not a subset of fp?
2015-06-27T02:11:37Z ijp: http://okmij.org/ftp/Scheme/#pure-oo
2015-06-27T02:12:09Z ijp: is one such example
2015-06-27T02:12:29Z ijp: zacts: the existence of all the mutating object systems stands as a counterexample?
2015-06-27T02:12:55Z zacts: vanila: well perhaps not a specific subset
2015-06-27T02:13:00Z zacts: but, a modification of fp
2015-06-27T02:13:03Z cojy_: you can implement everything using lambda calculus that doesn't make oo which is a design principal at all related to or a subset of fp which is another design
2015-06-27T02:13:09Z vanila: i don't think it is related at all
2015-06-27T02:13:23Z zacts: cojy_: ah ok
2015-06-27T02:13:39Z cojy_: the whole point of them being named "functional programming" and "object oriented" is to distinguish them as their own philosophies
2015-06-27T02:13:43Z ijp: it's got a different set of design principles
2015-06-27T02:13:47Z zacts: oh I see
2015-06-27T02:14:05Z vanila: i think oo is where you have an object system with ways to pass messages or call methods on them
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2015-06-27T02:14:13Z zacts: so the distinctions are more philosophical, and human created, than OOP or FP being an actual thing in and of themselves
2015-06-27T02:14:40Z cojy_: you can easily implement both using the other
2015-06-27T02:14:46Z cojy_: its just how you want to design your programs
2015-06-27T02:14:57Z zacts: oh, random thought... side tangent
2015-06-27T02:15:15Z zacts: I wonder if anyone, thought they would be mad, has tried implementing a mini-scheme interpreter with perl regex
2015-06-27T02:15:31Z zacts: I did see that tpope implemented a clojure-like language in pure vimL
2015-06-27T02:15:35Z zacts: but yeah, lol
2015-06-27T02:15:41Z zacts: back to our discussion though....
2015-06-27T02:16:06Z vanila: lol someone did a lisp interpreter in sed
2015-06-27T02:16:12Z zacts: sed!?
2015-06-27T02:16:14Z zacts: that's mad
2015-06-27T02:16:18Z zacts: not even awk?
2015-06-27T02:16:20Z zacts: it was sed?
2015-06-27T02:16:24Z ijp: it was sed
2015-06-27T02:16:28Z zacts: nice
2015-06-27T02:16:29Z vanila: https://github.com/shinh/sedlisp/blob/master/sedlisp.sed
2015-06-27T02:16:34Z ijp: sed is much more complicated than people think
2015-06-27T02:16:37Z vanila: yea shinh is absolute lunatic
2015-06-27T02:16:57Z vanila: so many cool hacks from him
2015-06-27T02:17:33Z vanila: A really good book on OO in lisp is art of the metaobject protocol
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2015-06-27T02:20:18Z zacts: https://github.com/tpope/timl
2015-06-27T02:20:30Z zacts: ^ tpope's Clojure language implemented in pure VimL
2015-06-27T02:20:37Z zacts: vanila: oh yeah, the common lisp book?
2015-06-27T02:20:46Z zacts: should that be read before the CLOS book, or after?
2015-06-27T02:21:18Z zacts: ijp: yeah, I did get this book on gnu sed. I still have yet to read it, but I did skim it
2015-06-27T02:21:19Z vanila: well CL is the host language but really about a particular object system and mostly implemented in terms of ittself
2015-06-27T02:21:24Z zacts: there are multiple buffers in sed apparently?
2015-06-27T02:21:25Z vanila: so you don't really know much CL to read it
2015-06-27T02:21:34Z zacts: let me link my sed book (not an oreilly)
2015-06-27T02:21:46Z cojy_: zacts: probably "instead of"
2015-06-27T02:21:47Z zacts: I think it has a forward by the previous gnu sed maintainer
2015-06-27T02:22:15Z zacts: cojy_: oh really?
2015-06-27T02:22:22Z zacts: Metobject instead of CLOS book?
2015-06-27T02:22:27Z ijp: zacts: why bother reading it? using sed for anything non-trivial is stupid
2015-06-27T02:22:51Z zacts: ijp: http://www.sed-book.com/
2015-06-27T02:23:24Z zacts: ijp: to feel cool
2015-06-27T02:23:27Z zacts: no
2015-06-27T02:24:04Z zacts: but, gnu sed can be more useful than a text editor in that you can one-liner edits on multiple files more easily?
2015-06-27T02:24:11Z zacts: I'm sure you can do this in emacs
2015-06-27T02:24:16Z zacts: but, a one-liner
2015-06-27T02:24:29Z zacts: but perhaps you are correct ijp
2015-06-27T02:24:34Z zacts cries....
2015-06-27T02:24:53Z zacts actually bought the book used.....
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2015-06-27T02:36:15Z pjb: zacts: you can do multiple file edits with emacs (ie. emacs lisp) too.
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2015-06-27T02:36:28Z pjb: zacts: and therefore with edwin (mit scheme) too.
2015-06-27T02:36:42Z pjb: zacts: would you prefer do them with sed or with scheme?
2015-06-27T02:36:55Z pjb: It's a personal choice.
2015-06-27T02:37:08Z zacts: pjb: I would personally prefer scheme
2015-06-27T02:37:18Z pjb: then use edwin ;-)
2015-06-27T02:37:32Z zacts: especially since many file data formats (html / xml) shouldn't be attempted to be parsed with regex
2015-06-27T02:37:41Z zacts: why edwin over emacs?
2015-06-27T02:37:43Z zacts: oh scheme
2015-06-27T02:37:45Z zacts: :-)
2015-06-27T02:37:46Z zacts: cool!
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2015-06-27T20:10:29Z zacts: a few questions
2015-06-27T20:10:38Z zacts: is mit-scheme an official gnu project?
2015-06-27T20:10:45Z zacts: and, is it still actively maintained?
2015-06-27T20:10:55Z zacts: and is there a specific irc channel for mit-scheme, or is this it?
2015-06-27T20:11:01Z wasamasa wonders what exactly an official gnu project would be
2015-06-27T20:11:04Z zacts: I'm searching the web for the first two
2015-06-27T20:11:33Z zacts: wasamasa: looks like mit-scheme is an official gnu endorsed project
2015-06-27T20:11:36Z zacts: http://www.gnu.org/software/mit-scheme/
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2015-06-27T20:12:21Z wasamasa: oh, hmm
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2015-06-27T20:12:31Z zacts: mit-scheme seems relatively maintained
2015-06-27T20:12:32Z zacts: http://git.savannah.gnu.org/cgit/mit-scheme.git/log/
2015-06-27T20:12:44Z zacts: being that probably 10 people on earth use mit-scheme on a daily basis?
2015-06-27T20:12:46Z zacts: :-D
2015-06-27T20:12:58Z wasamasa: oh, riastradh
2015-06-27T20:13:06Z zacts: oh cool
2015-06-27T20:13:10Z zacts: is hey Taylor?
2015-06-27T20:13:12Z zacts: *he
2015-06-27T20:13:17Z zacts: mr. Campbell
2015-06-27T20:13:22Z wasamasa: yup
2015-06-27T20:13:29Z wasamasa: http://mumble.net/~campbell/scheme/style.txt
2015-06-27T20:14:12Z zacts: oh nice!
2015-06-27T20:14:26Z wasamasa: see the first few lines of this particularly useful piece
2015-06-27T20:14:51Z zacts: hm.. does his style.txt follow emacs pretty closely?
2015-06-27T20:14:59Z zacts: I may reference it for a plugin I want to make
2015-06-27T20:15:03Z zacts: for vim / nvim
2015-06-27T20:15:10Z zacts: to indent scheme exactly like emacs
2015-06-27T20:15:22Z zacts: so I can collaborate on scheme projects with vimmers and emacsers alike
2015-06-27T20:15:30Z zacts: without complaints
2015-06-27T20:16:13Z wasamasa: that sounds like a good thing considering pretty much all style guides just refer to emacs when it comes to indentation
2015-06-27T20:16:33Z wasamasa: this one is a bit more specific though
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2015-06-27T20:17:43Z zacts: oh cool
2015-06-27T20:18:02Z zacts: I'll have to read it more fully perhaps this evening (a few hours from now)
2015-06-27T20:18:24Z pjb: zacts: all free software is always and eternally actively maintained: you can patch the sources whenever you want!
2015-06-27T20:18:47Z zacts: pjb: well, I may beg to differ
2015-06-27T20:18:56Z zacts: but, indeed theoretically
2015-06-27T20:19:10Z zacts: but if you personally don't have the coding skills or time to maintain a project
2015-06-27T20:19:29Z zacts: then that free software project could be functionally useless to you unless someon patches / maintains it
2015-06-27T20:19:35Z wasamasa: I recall seeing a vim project for indentation though
2015-06-27T20:19:44Z zacts: wasamasa: scheme specific, or lisp?
2015-06-27T20:19:48Z ecraven: zacts: I use MIT/GNU Scheme for a lot of things, it is still actively developed
2015-06-27T20:19:52Z zacts: and was it native vimL?
2015-06-27T20:20:06Z wasamasa: let's see
2015-06-27T20:20:06Z zacts: or did you have to :! indent.rkt
2015-06-27T20:20:11Z ecraven: it is also the only scheme I know of that works at least halfway with SLIME :)
2015-06-27T20:20:18Z zacts: and use an external program to indent for you
2015-06-27T20:20:25Z zacts: oh yeah?
2015-06-27T20:20:28Z zacts: mit-scheme + SLIME?
2015-06-27T20:20:47Z zacts: I wonder if you may also use geiser with mit-scheme?
2015-06-27T20:20:52Z zacts: but SLIME is more featurful right?
2015-06-27T20:20:54Z ecraven: there is no backend so far
2015-06-27T20:21:15Z ecraven: I haven't seen the advantages of geiser over slime so far, myself (but then I haven't tried geiser much either :)
2015-06-27T20:21:30Z wasamasa: zacts: http://ds26gte.github.io/scmindent/index.html
2015-06-27T20:22:12Z zacts: yeah I saw that one, and used it when I was on vim
2015-06-27T20:22:19Z zacts: it's an external racket indent program
2015-06-27T20:22:24Z zacts: so it's not native vim
2015-06-27T20:22:24Z wasamasa: :<
2015-06-27T20:22:37Z zacts: like you can't do <tab> to indent scheme to the proper level, like you do in emacs
2015-06-27T20:22:48Z wasamasa: sucks
2015-06-27T20:22:51Z zacts: you must select the entire buffer, or scheme expressions, and then do like gnu indent style on them
2015-06-27T20:22:54Z zacts: indeed
2015-06-27T20:23:20Z zacts: vimL at least has some support for higher order functions, and some more powerful features than I initially thought VimL could offer
2015-06-27T20:23:28Z zacts: but I still much prefer emacs lisp over VimL
2015-06-27T20:24:11Z wasamasa: I assume you've already checked the vim.org website?
2015-06-27T20:27:51Z wasamasa: it's funny how I've found more lisp interpreters and plugins for connecting to emacs there than formatters
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2015-06-27T20:29:53Z wasamasa: so far I've only found http://www.vim.org/scripts/script.php?script_id=2951
2015-06-27T20:29:57Z wasamasa: and http://vimdoc.sourceforge.net/htmldoc/options.html#%27lisp%27
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2015-06-27T20:40:13Z zacts: lol
2015-06-27T20:40:14Z zacts: yeah
2015-06-27T20:40:29Z zacts: I once tried to modify a clojure indent plugin to work with scheme
2015-06-27T20:40:33Z zacts: but it didn't work out too well
2015-06-27T20:40:53Z zacts: I saw that first vim.org link too
2015-06-27T20:40:58Z zacts: but the pastbins were dead
2015-06-27T20:41:07Z zacts: so I had no reference to modify it for scheme
2015-06-27T20:41:20Z zacts: I could try to email the author though, or really read through the messy VimL (which sucks)
2015-06-27T20:41:37Z zacts: oh yeah, set lisp
2015-06-27T20:41:46Z zacts: not much, I use that for what I have now in .vimrc
2015-06-27T20:41:46Z wasamasa: so it's hardcoded?
2015-06-27T20:41:51Z zacts: wasamasa: which?
2015-06-27T20:41:55Z zacts: the set lisp?
2015-06-27T20:41:57Z zacts: yeah set lisp is
2015-06-27T20:42:01Z wasamasa: the built-in indentation for non-clojures
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2015-06-27T20:42:27Z zacts: I think so, but you can override the system hardcoded indent files with locally defined files
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2015-06-27T20:42:37Z zacts: replace that last 'files' with 'configs'
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2015-06-27T20:43:15Z zacts: wasamasa: http://sprunge.us/PBMa
2015-06-27T20:43:32Z zacts: ^ this is my ~/.vim/after/indent/scheme.vim
2015-06-27T20:43:41Z zacts: it allows you to indent scheme with <tab> like in emacs
2015-06-27T20:44:11Z zacts: (it won't automagically indent the next line when you press <return>, until you also press <tab> on that line)
2015-06-27T20:44:21Z wasamasa: ouch
2015-06-27T20:44:23Z zacts: it works fairly well, it will work for my personal scheming
2015-06-27T20:44:43Z zacts: but, it doesn't indent exactly like emacs, so I must use an external formatter / pretty printer to contribute to guix, if I'm using vim, for example
2015-06-27T20:44:59Z wasamasa: I'm afraid you'll need to read the elisp sources of their indentation functions
2015-06-27T20:45:03Z wasamasa: which look pretty hairy to me
2015-06-27T20:45:22Z zacts: oh yeah?
2015-06-27T20:45:23Z zacts: ah
2015-06-27T20:45:25Z wasamasa: I've tried once figuring out how to adjust the indenter to not add indent for quoted lists
2015-06-27T20:45:47Z zacts: perhaps I could borrow from edwin?
2015-06-27T20:45:49Z zacts: in mit-scheme
2015-06-27T20:45:53Z wasamasa: maybe
2015-06-27T20:46:04Z zacts: it has a pretty good indent algorithm for scheme I think
2015-06-27T20:46:07Z zacts looks
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2015-06-27T20:46:53Z zacts: wasamasa: http://sprunge.us/cGId
2015-06-27T20:47:14Z zacts: that is src/edwin/linden.scm
2015-06-27T20:47:19Z zacts: from mit-scheme
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2015-06-27T20:53:47Z pjb: zacts: you fail to understand the point: even if it is actively maintained by somebody else, it will still be functionally useless to you, unless somebody corrects the bugs YOU are encountering, and implements the new features YOU need.   This is the reason why privative software is totally functionally useless to you, even while being "actively maintained" by their corporations: they just do not correct your bugs and add your features
2015-06-27T20:53:47Z pjb: If you are not capable, just hire a programmer to maintain your free software.
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2015-06-27T20:54:25Z zacts: ah ok
2015-06-27T20:54:29Z zacts: that is true
2015-06-27T20:55:26Z pjb: So the question you wanted to ask was: does it do what I need?
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2015-06-27T20:55:37Z pjb: Not whether it's "maintained".
2015-06-27T20:56:29Z zacts: :-)
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2015-06-27T20:56:54Z zacts: ok so I'm building the latest stable mit-scheme for myself
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2015-06-27T20:59:35Z pjb: Good, this is the first step! :-)
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2015-06-27T21:00:13Z pjb: And mit-scheme comes with edwin which works on terminals and X11 (so you can use it on MS-Windows and MacOSX too with a X server).
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2015-06-27T21:03:59Z zacts: oh how do I use edwin in a pure terminal?
2015-06-27T21:04:06Z Riastradh: (edit 'console)
2015-06-27T21:04:07Z zacts: I know how to do the x11 edwin
2015-06-27T21:04:09Z zacts: oh cool
2015-06-27T21:04:13Z zacts: hey Riastradh
2015-06-27T21:04:17Z Riastradh: Hi zacts.
2015-06-27T21:04:31Z zacts: oh nice!
2015-06-27T21:04:42Z zacts: I'm editing with edwin in my Terminal for the first time ever
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2015-06-27T21:05:23Z Riastradh: Supposed to work on Windows natively too, no X server needed.  (Never tried it myself.)
2015-06-27T21:06:26Z zacts: ah cool
2015-06-27T21:06:34Z zacts: I'm on debian gnu/linux though... (with guix on-top)
2015-06-27T21:07:47Z Riastradh: So X and console work fine for you.
2015-06-27T21:07:56Z zacts: yeah
2015-06-27T21:07:59Z zacts: I prefer console though
2015-06-27T21:08:12Z Riastradh: (I was responding to pjb's note: `And mit-scheme comes with edwin which works on terminals and X11 (so you can use it on MS-Windows and MacOSX too with a X server).')
2015-06-27T21:08:15Z zacts: brb, I have to reboot my laptop to get my init to catch guix-daemon
2015-06-27T21:08:19Z zacts: oh yeah
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2015-06-27T21:52:15Z pjb: Riastradh: thanks, I didn't tried ito n MS-Windows, so I just assumed. On MacOSX, it goes thru X11.app.
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2015-06-27T21:55:14Z zacts: hm..
2015-06-27T21:55:15Z zacts: yeah
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2015-06-27T22:08:07Z ecraven: Riastradh: would you happen to know a simple project that demonstrates how to use CREF to create stand-alone load-option for MIT/GNU Scheme? I have several things using the FFI that I'd like to package (right now I can only use one FFI thing at a time). Is there even a way to build things out-of-tree or at least after MIT/GNU Scheme is built, and not integrated with the normal build process?
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2015-06-28T00:55:29Z gfixler: trying to grok call/cc, but keep seeing 2 bodies in define statements with no explanation
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2015-06-28T00:55:47Z gfixler: (define (foo args) (body) value)
2015-06-28T00:55:57Z gfixler: how is value allowed there?
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2015-06-28T02:06:35Z turbofail: gfixler: that's how the define syntax works when you're using the shorthand "function define" syntax...
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2015-06-28T02:07:48Z turbofail: if it makes you uncomfortable just imagine it as (define foo (lambda (args) (body) value))
2015-06-28T02:09:09Z gfixler: turbofail: that still looks strange - is this a difference between scheme and lisp?
2015-06-28T02:09:14Z gfixler: body is the value in my mind
2015-06-28T02:09:22Z gfixler: I can't just tack on a second thing as the value
2015-06-28T02:09:32Z turbofail: what?  every lisp allows this
2015-06-28T02:10:50Z turbofail: (lambda (x) (print x) x) for example, is perfectly valid common lisp
2015-06-28T02:11:38Z turbofail: the body of a lambda is an implicit progn/begin/whatever
2015-06-28T02:11:51Z gfixler: wow, how have I never encountered this before? (just tried it in Clojure, and it works)
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2015-06-28T02:12:48Z turbofail: well you ordinarily won't see such a thing when writing "pure" programs
2015-06-28T02:12:53Z turbofail: so that might be why
2015-06-28T02:13:04Z gfixler: I've dabbled in CL for about a year, and about 6 months in Clojure
2015-06-28T02:13:07Z gfixler: read PCL
2015-06-28T02:13:14Z gfixler: I have no memory of this :(
2015-06-28T02:13:56Z gfixler: I've seen countless uses of progn and do as well
2015-06-28T02:14:23Z gfixler: as the singular form representing a function body
2015-06-28T02:14:50Z gfixler: welp, I guess I'm one of today's lucky 10,000
2015-06-28T02:14:53Z gfixler: thanks for the clarification
2015-06-28T02:14:59Z turbofail: hmph.  that's bad style, where'd you see that?
2015-06-28T02:15:12Z gfixler: turbofail: everywhere :)
2015-06-28T02:15:18Z gfixler: super common IME
2015-06-28T02:15:31Z turbofail: really?  i don't think i've ever seen it
2015-06-28T02:15:41Z gfixler: I thought that was why we even had progn and o
2015-06-28T02:15:44Z gfixler: do*
2015-06-28T02:16:22Z turbofail: other than in macroexpansion templates
2015-06-28T02:16:36Z gfixler: it's possible I did know this, and just forgot it
2015-06-28T02:16:41Z gfixler: I've been known to do that on occasion
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2015-06-28T02:17:02Z gfixler: hmm, says it right there: https://clojuredocs.org/clojure.core/do
2015-06-28T02:17:05Z gfixler: ;; `fn` (`defn` by extension) and `let` have an implicit `do`
2015-06-28T02:18:41Z gfixler: And at the bottom here, so apparently I'm just crazy: http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/lw60/CLHS/Body/s_progn.htm
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2015-06-28T17:56:18Z zacts: I'm considering downloading the Sussman and Aebelson SICP lectures
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2015-06-28T17:56:37Z zacts: but maybe I should do this as I watch them.
2015-06-28T17:56:50Z zacts: I'm going to have more limited internet connectivity for the next few weeks
2015-06-28T17:57:01Z zacts: but I can find a hotspot for indivdual downloads I guess
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2015-06-28T18:12:53Z pjb: You should definitely download the videos and watch them while studing the book.
2015-06-28T18:13:11Z pjb: Do it now that you have a fast connection, they're not that big.
2015-06-28T18:14:01Z pjb: 11 GB.
2015-06-28T18:16:34Z zacts: ah ok
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2015-06-29T04:16:51Z rainy: which scheme implementations is better for OS X
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2015-06-29T05:09:34Z ksinkar: Hi, I am trying to use the scheme shell, scsh. I have compiled and installed it according to the instructions given. I do not know how to launch it. There is a note in the TODO that says run the ./go file. But when I try to run  ./go from my shell, My shell replies that no such file or directory when such a file exists. Please help.
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2015-06-29T05:11:57Z copycat: hi, have a list of connected nodes
2015-06-29T05:12:01Z Riastradh: ksinkar: Can you copy & paste a transcript of your complete interaction at the shell, starting from before you compile and install it?
2015-06-29T05:12:12Z copycat: i need to group them up
2015-06-29T05:12:27Z copycat: but i get fragmented groups that are actually connected to each other
2015-06-29T05:12:52Z copycat: i have to do some backtracking, but i don't know what stop condition i can put
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2015-06-29T07:55:41Z ksinkar: Riastradh: https://gist.github.com/447db41c6a27a07bc330.git
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2015-06-29T08:27:09Z ecraven: ksinkar: that page is entirely empty for me :)
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2015-06-29T14:22:46Z Riastradh: ksinkar: 404 with blank page?
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2015-06-29T14:26:46Z mario-goulart: Riastradh: seems to work if I drop the trailing .git
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2015-06-29T14:28:06Z ecraven: interesting, some of the ansi escapes turn to (indian) Om for me :)
2015-06-29T14:28:12Z ecraven: a sign from the universe!
2015-06-29T14:28:31Z mario-goulart: :-)
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2015-06-29T14:30:45Z Riastradh: ksinkar: Not sure what's up.  In scheme48 go is a shell script in the top of the source tree; it looks like in scsh it's not.  Try `find . -name go' to find where it went?
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2015-06-30T06:16:45Z koz_: Hi all! I'm having a bit of trouble understanding how to use SLIB packages in my code. Also, should I write my own Scheme code that uses SLIB in a package, and if so, how? The SLIB manual doesn't help me understand this any.
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2015-06-30T13:07:21Z mstevens: I have a (possibly) dumb question. I've been reading SICP and saw with interest the section on processing data as streams, or as various transformations on sequences. Is there anything good I can look at that further expands on this whole idea?
2015-06-30T13:08:26Z mstevens: data-flow programming seems like it may be related
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2015-06-30T13:16:56Z spew: there is a lot of literature on that and related concepts
2015-06-30T13:17:23Z spew: related concepts being networks of coroutines communicating with streams of data
2015-06-30T13:17:27Z mstevens: spew: can you recommend any?
2015-06-30T13:17:42Z spew: Power Series, Power Serious by Doug McIlroy is great
2015-06-30T13:18:16Z spew: he has other references in that paper that are also good
2015-06-30T13:18:52Z spew: if you want to see the same thing in an imperative style, then McIlroy has an earlier paper called "Squinting at Power Series"
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2015-06-30T13:21:10Z mstevens investigates
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2015-06-30T13:26:13Z mstevens: hmm, CSP might be relevant to my interests
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2015-06-30T13:31:39Z LeoNerd: CSP is cute
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2015-06-30T13:43:39Z spew: yeah squinting is in the CSP style
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2015-06-30T13:43:54Z spew: Power Series, Power Serious is in the lazy evaluation style you see in SICP
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2015-06-30T13:45:02Z mstevens: I'm sort of very vaguely interested in "like unix pipes, but more powerful"
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2015-06-30T17:11:39Z zacts: hm... Ok I think I'm going to try getting back into SICP today
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2015-06-30T20:43:30Z ski: hm, iirc, there was some paper by Jonathan Rees (?) that explained "proper tail recursion". any suggestion for which paper i'm thinking of ? (did i confuse the author(s) ?)
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2015-06-30T20:44:32Z turbofail: i think it was this one: http://www.cesura17.net/~will/professional/research/papers/tail.pdf
2015-06-30T20:44:35Z ijp: probably thinking of clinger
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2015-06-30T20:47:21Z ski: hm, yes. i suppose it probably is that one. (i'm not sure where i got the idea that Rees was an author). ty
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2015-06-30T21:06:06Z Lumpio-: https://gist.github.com/mvirkkunen/5059287064e98eaacebb
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2015-06-30T21:06:28Z Lumpio-: How do builtins actually work? I thought they were just plain definitions on the top level, not any different from something I define'd
2015-06-30T21:06:45Z Lumpio-: Why doesn't set!ing them do what it does to a user function
2015-06-30T21:06:52Z Lumpio-: Or is guile quirky
2015-06-30T21:08:25Z ijp: Lumpio-: each guile expression at the repl gets compiled
2015-06-30T21:08:36Z ijp: this runs various optimisations on them
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2015-06-30T21:08:57Z Lumpio-: Is this "ok" behavior per spec?
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2015-06-30T21:09:19Z ijp: which spec?
2015-06-30T21:09:29Z ijp: per r6rs and r7rs, you can't mutate imports
2015-06-30T21:09:39Z Lumpio-: ha, got me
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2015-06-30T21:10:39Z Lumpio-: I guess guile implement some bizarre GNU "standard" as usual.
2015-06-30T21:10:50Z ijp: r5rs it's hard to say
2015-06-30T21:10:54Z ijp: Lumpio-: try running that in a file, you should get different results
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2015-06-30T21:11:16Z Lumpio-: >The initial (or ``top level'') Scheme environment starts out with a number of variables bound to locations containing useful values, most of which are primitive procedures that manipulate data.
2015-06-30T21:11:27Z Lumpio-: This is what I read in R5RS which suggested I should be able to redefine things just fine.
2015-06-30T21:11:29Z Lumpio-: let's see
2015-06-30T21:11:43Z ijp: repls are full of special behaviour
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2015-06-30T21:13:41Z Lumpio-: Same results when ran from a file.
2015-06-30T21:14:31Z Lumpio-: https://gist.github.com/mvirkkunen/127ecd97e684f739457d <- this
2015-06-30T21:16:18Z ijp: hmm, that's arguably a bug
2015-06-30T21:16:33Z Lumpio-: I mean redefining built-in functions is a bit silly I guess but
2015-06-30T21:16:49Z Lumpio-: I just wanted to see what happens. How binding works and all that. Somehow that built-in is magical.
2015-06-30T21:17:35Z ijp: Lumpio-: even in a compliant implementation, it wouldn't break anything, since primitives are expected to work even if they are rebound by users
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2015-06-30T21:23:53Z ijp: "Altering any top-level binding that has not been introduced by a definition has an unspecified effect on the behavior of the built-in procedures."
2015-06-30T21:24:42Z Lumpio-: ooh
2015-06-30T21:24:47Z Lumpio-: I guess I should've read further
2015-06-30T21:25:36Z ijp: not the wording I remember either, but I should have known. "unspecified" is a rampant cancer of specifications
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