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2015-05-01T00:42:12Z kephra: Pixel_Outlaw, did you work on such a machine - it was horrible slow, imho
2015-05-01T00:42:54Z kephra: had a used one around 1995 - did run it under NetBSD
2015-05-01T00:43:43Z Pixel_Outlaw: I didn't not. I just found out my answer to why HP was shipping off employees to the SICP lectures. I'd love to use one even if slow just for the experience.
2015-05-01T00:44:03Z kephra: and a 2nd thing - I'm currently writing a scheme for CRUD apps - even considering reader macros for COBOL picture clauses ;-)
2015-05-01T00:44:34Z Pixel_Outlaw: What is CRUD?
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2015-05-01T00:44:54Z kephra: Create, Read, Update, Delete -> database apps
2015-05-01T00:45:03Z Pixel_Outlaw: Ah ok.
2015-05-01T00:45:24Z kephra: http://o3db.com/proto/veritas.html <- take a look at the html source code - next into o3lib.scm linked as script tag
2015-05-01T00:46:00Z Pixel_Outlaw: Ah I recall you showing me this before. Yes kudos to you for some cool wizardry.
2015-05-01T00:46:56Z kephra: nearly passing R4RS test now - mainly lacking at numbers
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2015-05-01T00:48:31Z kephra: Pixel_Outlaw, the reason they might show interest in Scheme/Lisp might be same as mine: Scheme has exact math that is suited for currency, and its easier to build a 4gl on top of a Lisp then to build a 4gl from scratch
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2015-05-01T00:50:23Z Pixel_Outlaw: Plus I bet the static nature of data in Scheme meshes well with DBa.
2015-05-01T00:50:26Z Pixel_Outlaw: *DBs
2015-05-01T00:51:14Z Pixel_Outlaw: Honestly I *get* SQL but I don't like the feel of it. It is not programmy enough.
2015-05-01T00:52:13Z kephra: business people like this kind of declarative programming: tell the computer what you want - and let it decide itself how to do so
2015-05-01T00:52:29Z scoofy: prolog
2015-05-01T00:52:53Z scoofy: also used among business people
2015-05-01T00:53:03Z kephra: and exactly thats a kind of problem where lisp, scheme are great - prolog might be better for finding a solution, but scheme and lisp are more suited for the rest
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2015-05-01T01:08:15Z Pixel_Outlaw: Lisp is great because it is language building material.
2015-05-01T01:08:37Z Pixel_Outlaw: They got a LOT right very early on with first class functions and mixed lists.
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2015-05-01T03:10:31Z tcleval: hi. Does anyone have this around ? ---> http://avxhome.se/ebooks/Adventures_in_Advanced_Symbolic_Programming_Gerald_Jay_Sussman.html
2015-05-01T03:10:31Z rudybot: http://tinyurl.com/k6jxeyz
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2015-05-01T14:02:20Z kephra: *w00t* I plugged js-numbers.js into my toy scheme - thrown away my self baked 5% finished numbers
2015-05-01T14:02:33Z kephra: now even have complex numbers - just need to bind them ;-)
2015-05-01T14:04:01Z kephra: removed 98 bad own lines of code - included a lib of 4100 lines - but who cares
2015-05-01T14:06:57Z kephra: I hope I can show complete r4rs test suite end of weekend
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2015-05-01T14:14:03Z tcleval: does anyone have this Sussman videos? http://avxhome.se/ebooks/Adventures_in_Advanced_Symbolic_Programming_Gerald_Jay_Sussman.html
2015-05-01T14:14:03Z rudybot: http://tinyurl.com/k6jxeyz
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2015-05-01T14:40:53Z lolisa: http://www.reddit.com/r/scheme/comments/34if97/in_8_hours_daniel_p_friedman_famous_for_his_work/
2015-05-01T14:40:54Z rudybot: http://tinyurl.com/o8sacvt
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2015-05-01T14:46:59Z contrapunctus: Reddit seems to have a lot of downtime of late.
2015-05-01T14:47:06Z z0d: yup
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2015-05-01T15:16:25Z contrapunctus: Anyone know what became of the Snow project?
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2015-05-01T15:20:20Z wasamasa: it melted?
2015-05-01T15:20:23Z wasamasa hides
2015-05-01T15:20:58Z contrapunctus: :|
2015-05-01T15:21:50Z wasamasa: IIRC dleslie is involved with it
2015-05-01T15:23:56Z wasamasa: https://github.com/ashinn/chibi-snow/
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2015-05-01T15:28:14Z contrapunctus: oh, so it's not dead.
2015-05-01T15:28:28Z contrapunctus: (or is it?) The mailing list certainly is, though.
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2015-05-01T15:33:23Z contrapunctus: and there's no "News", so.
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2015-05-01T20:37:04Z contrapunctus: taylanub: ping
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2015-05-01T20:39:51Z taylanub: faint pong
2015-05-01T20:39:54Z taylanub: (a little busy)
2015-05-01T20:40:21Z contrapunctus: taylanub: okay, later then.
2015-05-01T20:40:46Z taylanub: contrapunctus: I might answer, just with a delay
2015-05-01T20:40:53Z contrapunctus: alrighty :)
2015-05-01T20:41:40Z contrapunctus: taylanub: what goes with the R7RS SRFI project Gitorious migration?
2015-05-01T20:43:10Z taylanub: contrapunctus: I heard they'll keep read-only repos for a long time so I'm not rushing it
2015-05-01T20:43:15Z taylanub: project is kinda inactive these days :\
2015-05-01T20:43:40Z taylanub: I try to devote my energy to more immediately/obviously useful things like GNU Guix
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2015-05-01T20:44:25Z contrapunctus: hm...
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2015-05-01T20:56:37Z contrapunctus: I wish I could help with the project (R7RS SRFIs, not Guix) but I'm just too new to Scheme as well as to programming.
2015-05-01T20:59:28Z taylanub: it's mostly been drudgery TBH
2015-05-01T20:59:43Z taylanub: wrapping reference implementations in libraries, cleaning them up a little, etc.
2015-05-01T21:00:01Z taylanub: doing my pedantic book-keeping...
2015-05-01T21:00:09Z contrapunctus: taylanub: book-keeping?
2015-05-01T21:01:38Z taylanub: like the progress list in the README.md
2015-05-01T21:05:24Z contrapunctus: I see.
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2015-05-01T21:40:56Z dsmith-work: Anyone ever seen am image with the text: "The Sacred Text of Gerald J. Sussman Confounds the Python Heretics. 2009 A.S." ?
2015-05-01T21:41:27Z dsmith-work: I've got a paper copy, but I can't find the original image...
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2015-05-01T23:07:37Z SrPx: Is there any good n-dimensional array package...?
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2015-05-02T02:02:24Z RexButler: So, what's the best music to program scheme in?
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2015-05-02T02:29:23Z RexButler: Oh boy, I have list and ' mixed up.
2015-05-02T02:29:35Z RexButler: So, is (list 1 2 3) = '(1 2 3)
2015-05-02T02:29:36Z RexButler: ?
2015-05-02T02:47:33Z RexButler: Looks like it's just me and racket together tonight. :)
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2015-05-02T03:10:34Z RexButler: Here is what I'm working on:  http://sprunge.us/YgjA
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2015-05-02T04:18:02Z RexButler: http://sprunge.us/UOXb
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2015-05-03T01:52:38Z RexButler: So, what's the best music to program scheme to?
2015-05-03T01:53:59Z RexButler: I'm listening to Hans Zimmer right now.
2015-05-03T01:54:09Z RexButler: Any Hans Zimmer fans?
2015-05-03T01:54:16Z RexButler: Or other artists?
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2015-05-03T01:57:38Z RexButler: Here is what I'm working on... not quite working yet: http://sprunge.us/DGbh
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2015-05-03T02:00:13Z Tbone139: the 'uplink' soundtrack makes for good scheming methinks
2015-05-03T02:01:08Z RexButler: Which artist?
2015-05-03T02:01:45Z Tbone139: various: Skaven, Timelord, Ryan Cramer, dual crew, Karsten Koch, Hector, and dustbin
2015-05-03T02:02:25Z RexButler: Skaven is the name of an old demoscene artist
2015-05-03T02:03:37Z Tbone139: one and the same I'd think, song's 'deep in her eyes'
2015-05-03T02:05:21Z RexButler: I still remember the first time I saw "Second Reality"...
2015-05-03T02:06:54Z grublet: RexButler: Jesper Kyd has good compositions, if you're into video game soundtrack compositions
2015-05-03T02:07:04Z grublet: did the Hitman games
2015-05-03T02:07:59Z RexButler: Do any of you know the demoscene, as it's called?
2015-05-03T02:08:07Z RexButler: Second Reality, Future Crew, all that?
2015-05-03T02:08:14Z RexButler: grublet: Looking him up
2015-05-03T02:08:27Z Tbone139: I wasn't familiar with it, only saw a vid from it recently by coincidence
2015-05-03T02:08:34Z grublet: RexButler: look up "47 makes a decision"
2015-05-03T02:08:38Z grublet: love that one
2015-05-03T02:09:28Z RexButler: YEah, back in the day when you had to buy a SoundBlaster to get good sound
2015-05-03T02:10:15Z grublet: i miss those days
2015-05-03T02:10:20Z RexButler: grublet: Listening
2015-05-03T02:10:42Z grublet: i managed to find an agp-era pc im gonna install xp on to play some video games
2015-05-03T02:11:47Z RexButler: I'm running on Ubuntu now.
2015-05-03T02:12:00Z RexButler: The only reason I need windows is to run chess software
2015-05-03T02:12:20Z RexButler: Unfortunately I hate Windows 8 more than I love my chess software, so...
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2015-05-03T02:12:51Z RexButler: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dmhtc5S4atU
2015-05-03T02:13:02Z grublet: I checked out after win7
2015-05-03T02:13:17Z grublet: 99% of my needs are covered by linux anyway
2015-05-03T02:13:37Z grublet: using debian and mint atm
2015-05-03T02:13:58Z RexButler: I used to use mint
2015-05-03T02:14:38Z grublet: i'm getting tired of 'easy' distros. it's like an automatic transmission; the benefits are far outweighed by the extra complexity
2015-05-03T02:14:57Z grublet: same reason I avoid IDEs
2015-05-03T02:15:10Z RexButler: Is there even a semi-good scheme IDE?
2015-05-03T02:15:35Z grublet: probably not but i was referring to programming in general
2015-05-03T02:15:44Z grublet: i just use a text editor
2015-05-03T02:15:58Z RexButler: Sometimes IDE's can be useful...
2015-05-03T02:16:09Z RexButler: YOu have to be good booth ways, though.
2015-05-03T02:16:15Z grublet: yeah but none of my projects have been complex enough to need them
2015-05-03T02:16:19Z grublet: i'm entry-level on this stuff
2015-05-03T02:17:18Z RexButler: Do you use git?
2015-05-03T02:17:29Z RexButler: Knowing command line git is essential
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2015-05-03T02:21:48Z RexButler: I'm working on the eights queens problem
2015-05-03T02:21:53Z grublet: i've cloned git projects for compiling before
2015-05-03T02:22:07Z RexButler: git is cool beans
2015-05-03T02:22:18Z grublet: programming is a very recent thing for me mostly because windows was too aggravating to even try
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2015-05-03T02:22:39Z RexButler: Well I'm glad you are on linux now
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2015-05-03T02:23:31Z RexButler: I'm surprised flatmap is not built into racket
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2015-05-03T02:24:41Z RexButler: Well, it seems 98% of the people just lurk
2015-05-03T02:24:54Z RexButler: I've had a few good conversations here though
2015-05-03T02:25:17Z grublet: I began watching the MIT SICP lectures the other day
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2015-05-03T02:25:26Z grublet: compiled mit-scheme
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2015-05-03T02:26:05Z RexButler: I'm just using racket
2015-05-03T02:26:15Z grublet: i haven't heard of racket
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2015-05-03T02:26:49Z RexButler: It used to be called PLT scheme
2015-05-03T02:26:56Z grublet: yeah i looked it up
2015-05-03T02:27:36Z grublet: i just wanted something terminal based so i couldn't distract myself with buttons and knobs
2015-05-03T02:28:05Z RexButler: Believe me, I don't use DrRacket... just command line
2015-05-03T02:28:08Z grublet: i'd prefer to start low-level but i'm just testing the waters
2015-05-03T02:28:11Z grublet: ah okay
2015-05-03T02:28:24Z grublet: is there really any difference betweeen that and mit-scheme?
2015-05-03T02:29:03Z RexButler: Some small differences, yes.  But I think it supports it if you use the right "#lang" declaration at the top of your code
2015-05-03T02:30:17Z grublet: i just took mit-scheme as being sorta 'set and forget' in that sense, also it was the first result i found for scheme, since at first i installed clisp but it didnt really map to what i was watching in the lectures
2015-05-03T02:38:45Z Tbone139: as far as SICP goes, (set-car!) isn't implemented in racket, even using '#lang scheme', but it does work under '#lang planet neil/sicp'
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2015-05-03T02:40:06Z Tbone139: Er, I should say racket uses set-mcar! instead
2015-05-03T02:40:11Z RexButler: So racket only has immutable lists?
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2015-05-03T02:43:07Z Tbone139: you can make mutable pairs with (mpair), currently looking for something equivalent to (list)
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2015-05-03T02:44:26Z Tbone139: ah, you get (mlist) under (require compatibility/mlist)
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2015-05-03T02:47:19Z RexButler: I wonder how much scheme I'll know if I read through SICP
2015-05-03T02:47:21Z grublet: Tbone139: I'm currently too ignorant to understand what you've described. I just know mit-cheme does what's needed for the time being. Thanks for the info though
2015-05-03T02:47:42Z RexButler: I did buy "The Scheme Programming Language" though, coming in the mail soon.
2015-05-03T02:48:59Z grublet: I had a torrent of hundreds of cs/math/physics/etc books but i lost it in a drive failure.
2015-05-03T02:49:23Z grublet: if i ever have the money i'm gonna get the ones relevant to me
2015-05-03T02:50:24Z RexButler: grublet:  You pre or post college, or not planning on it?
2015-05-03T02:50:36Z RexButler: You sound like a smart guy
2015-05-03T02:52:30Z RexButler: I mean, no one learns scheme on their free time unless they are at least curious... and most likely smart
2015-05-03T02:56:49Z RexButler: MIT bound?
2015-05-03T02:58:27Z grublet: RexButler: i'm entirely self taught, and I don't know much honestly
2015-05-03T02:58:41Z grublet: i have neither the funding nor inclination to institutional learning
2015-05-03T02:58:48Z grublet: it's all just fun for me
2015-05-03T02:59:51Z RexButler: grublet: That's the best way.  I'm an MS Math, but I was always a self-started and have a spotty academic record
2015-05-03T03:00:05Z RexButler: self-starter*
2015-05-03T03:01:14Z RexButler: I'm self taught when it comes to CS stuff, though.
2015-05-03T03:04:42Z scoofy: you can learn more yourself than from schools
2015-05-03T03:05:24Z RexButler: I'm having a really hard time understanding this error message:
2015-05-03T03:05:25Z RexButler: http://sprunge.us/TJCM
2015-05-03T03:08:01Z Tbone139: my drscheme gui highlighted this in red (not (= (high (car pl))))
2015-05-03T03:12:12Z RexButler: Hmm... I'm confused.  That should be fine.
2015-05-03T03:13:52Z Tbone139: You're binding '3' to 'high', which means that's trying to execute (= (3 (car pl))), which doesn't work because 3 isn't a procedure
2015-05-03T03:14:59Z RexButler: Oh yes
2015-05-03T03:15:02Z Tbone139: hmm... changing it to (= high (car pl)) and (= low (car pl)) makes the program give '#f' which is a deeper error
2015-05-03T03:16:07Z grublet: scoofy: it's almost embarassing that I watch all these lectures online and it's basically the same stuff you can find on google or wikipedia. i think the only use of school is to provide the information in a well-structured way since my knowledge is very spotty as RexButler said
2015-05-03T03:16:40Z RexButler: Better: http://sprunge.us/QTHa
2015-05-03T03:16:51Z grublet: my experience with computer work taught me to keep hobbies out of my employment
2015-05-03T03:17:23Z RexButler: grublet: Why is that?  I like my computer work.
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2015-05-03T03:19:55Z grublet: RexButler: Because I get people who say they have nothing important on their hard drive, then I give it back to them with a fresh windows install and they'll be like "where's all my stuff". I can't handle that stuff if I'm employing myself
2015-05-03T03:20:12Z grublet: cant handle that situation, rather
2015-05-03T03:21:11Z Tbone139: I like PEBCAK as a problem description in desktop support: 'Problem Exists Between Chair And Keyboard'
2015-05-03T03:22:39Z grublet: I don't know how it is in your area but there are many 'simple folk' for lack of a better term where I am. I think even that would confuse them. Like the kind of person who needs to be told where keys on the keyboard are located
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2015-05-03T03:23:16Z RexButler: Haha, PEBCAK
2015-05-03T03:23:43Z grublet: I always say Problem Exists Between Computer and Keyboard for some reason
2015-05-03T03:23:55Z grublet: it becomes almost philisophical by that point
2015-05-03T03:24:15Z Tbone139: or a faulty keyboard cable X3
2015-05-03T03:26:27Z RexButler: Once you get the right job, a software engineer almost needs fewer people skills than the average guy... just needs to be persistent and patient with smart people (not dumb ones)
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2015-05-03T03:28:38Z grublet: I just prefer manual labor for dosh and relegate the smart stuff to relax with
2015-05-03T03:29:59Z RexButler: I hope Pacquiao kills Maywhether
2015-05-03T03:30:09Z RexButler: Not a boxing guy... except today
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2015-05-03T03:33:52Z Tbone139: heck of a history there http://www.reddit.com/r/Boxing/comments/2wlmu7/floyd_mayweather_vs_manny_pacquiao_may_2nd/cos1d57
2015-05-03T03:33:52Z rudybot: http://tinyurl.com/l9fxmrg
2015-05-03T03:35:21Z RexButler: grublet:  You should check out Racket.  It has good docs.  http://docs.racket-lang.org/guide/index.html
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2015-05-03T03:44:49Z grublet: RexButler: thanks, bookmarked
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2015-05-03T03:48:36Z RexButler: grublet:  I think racket has language packets to make it compatible with a lot of flavors of scheme
2015-05-03T03:48:45Z RexButler: Including MIT scheme, I believe
2015-05-03T03:50:03Z grublet: I'll look more into once I've attained the slightest inkling of competence with mit-scheme
2015-05-03T03:51:46Z RexButler: grublet: Which books on scheme are you reading?
2015-05-03T03:53:04Z grublet: I haven't read any, just been watcihng the 86 MIT lecture series and otherwise messing around when i'm not following the examples
2015-05-03T03:53:16Z grublet: i might read sicp sometime
2015-05-03T03:53:34Z grublet: but hoinestly i want to start at low level stuff first before i get too deep into any particular language
2015-05-03T03:53:47Z grublet: so diagrams and logic stuff first
2015-05-03T03:54:22Z RexButler: A book will help
2015-05-03T03:54:31Z RexButler: If you like math, try getting a copy of SICP
2015-05-03T03:54:52Z grublet: I definitely will when i got the cash
2015-05-03T03:56:11Z grublet: i dl all sorts of pdfs but reading on a computer screen is agonzing and i prefer paper anyway
2015-05-03T03:57:46Z RexButler: Do you get your books on torrent?
2015-05-03T03:58:45Z grublet: RexButler: http://books.gentoomen.org/ i had downloaded this
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2015-05-03T16:45:52Z kephra: http://kephra.de/o3proto/r4rs-subset.html <- r4rs test complete till 6.9 - 6.10 comes tomorrow
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2015-05-03T22:15:50Z Pixel_Outlaw: Does anyone know if it is possible to pipe output from one Linux/BSD program into a Scheme program in real time?
2015-05-03T22:16:18Z Pixel_Outlaw: I'd like to write a graphics terminal...
2015-05-03T22:16:47Z Pixel_Outlaw: Something like ReGIS http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ReGIS.
2015-05-03T22:16:55Z Pixel_Outlaw: * http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ReGIS
2015-05-03T22:17:03Z pjb: that would depend on the scheme implementation.
2015-05-03T22:17:34Z Pixel_Outlaw: Yes, I imagine so. Which would you use?
2015-05-03T22:18:22Z pjb: I don't know.  I'd use bigloo, and I'd expect to find some api to popen or pipes in general in the implementation documentation.
2015-05-03T22:20:04Z Pixel_Outlaw: Ok. I think it would be nice to create a new terminal for that standard. It seems options are limited for emulating it.
2015-05-03T22:22:34Z pjb: bigloo gas a ffi so you can do the same as in c http://www-sop.inria.fr/mimosa/fp/Bigloo/doc/bigloo-28.html#The-C-interface
2015-05-03T22:22:35Z rudybot: http://tinyurl.com/m9cjvls
2015-05-03T22:22:45Z pjb: s/gas/has
2015-05-03T22:23:38Z Pixel_Outlaw: Ok I'll install and try it out.
2015-05-03T22:23:44Z Pixel_Outlaw: Thanks pjb.
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2015-05-03T22:58:24Z kephra: Pixel_Outlaw, look at older versions of GTK Server if you want a simple text interface for GUI output, that you can talk with standard IO (named pipes), and socket IO
2015-05-03T22:58:39Z kephra: this should work with every Scheme ;-)
2015-05-03T22:59:04Z kephra: ... at least under Linux - the GTK Server can run and display under Windows also
2015-05-03T23:00:04Z kephra: Pixel_Outlaw, http://www.gtk-server.org/demo-stdin.scm.txt <- code might look like this
2015-05-03T23:00:16Z saul has used GTK Server with TinyScheme.
2015-05-03T23:00:31Z kephra: did you like it, saul ?
2015-05-03T23:01:24Z Pixel_Outlaw: Huh, seems simple enough.
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2015-05-03T23:01:31Z kephra: ;-)
2015-05-03T23:02:01Z Pixel_Outlaw: I kind of like how when you use text pipes to communicate you can send anything across SSH.
2015-05-03T23:02:11Z saul: kephra, it kind of goes against my bit-counting sensibilities (a personal flaw I'm striving to overcome), but it was otherwise very nice.
2015-05-03T23:02:14Z Pixel_Outlaw: That said, I'd not an advocate of "throw everything into XML" mentality.
2015-05-03T23:02:54Z kephra: saul, I like the low footprint of gtk server compared to other gui frameworks
2015-05-03T23:03:05Z kephra: its ZERO footprint to my application ;-)
2015-05-03T23:03:20Z kephra: and the GTK Server itself is also pretty small
2015-05-03T23:04:13Z Pixel_Outlaw: That is a bit more verbose than ReGIS though.
2015-05-03T23:04:18Z kephra: Pixel_Outlaw, my o3scm will offer s/x-expression to access the browser DOM
2015-05-03T23:04:20Z saul: I'd like to see XForms revived for Scheme.
2015-05-03T23:05:09Z saul: I believe newer version of SOAP accept sxml.
2015-05-03T23:05:27Z saul: *versions
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2015-05-03T23:09:54Z Pixel_Outlaw: Well for now I think I'll just offer some very basic graphics primitives. In the same way Scheme offers just the pieces to make a program. Similar in concept to the "picture language" offered in SICP. The foundation being small and granular and flexible is the key. People can build widgets at a higher level.
2015-05-03T23:10:30Z Pixel_Outlaw: It would be a mistake to start with very complex high level objects and work backwards filling in gaps.
2015-05-03T23:17:13Z kephra: thats exactly what I'm doing, e.g. http://kephra.de/o3proto/books.scm results in http://kephra.de/o3proto/books.html
2015-05-03T23:17:19Z kephra: very high abstraction
2015-05-03T23:19:38Z Pixel_Outlaw: Oh, I can grab it and move it too.
2015-05-03T23:19:40Z Pixel_Outlaw: Very nice.
2015-05-03T23:20:04Z kephra: yes, and multiple windows are also possible - and its magic MVC ;-)
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2015-05-03T23:22:23Z kephra: (set! lin.moa (* lin.qty lin.pri)) works inside a cursor - so its not necessary to define this for every row
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2015-05-03T23:23:23Z kephra: the "magic" here is that o3scm calls an external look for dotted symbols, if they are not in the environment
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2015-05-03T23:25:04Z kephra: so a (set! lin.moa will automagically set the right monetary amount of the line items table
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2015-05-03T23:25:28Z kephra: and this will automatic result in updating any view of that field
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2015-05-03T23:28:48Z Pixel_Outlaw: I'd just like program to program communications without involving Microsoft, Mozilla, and Google.
2015-05-03T23:29:07Z kephra: I also did
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2015-05-03T23:30:37Z kephra: I moved from mainframes to so called open systems, when IBM decided to ship operating system in object code only, without development system - whats the use of a system programmer, if you have no system? we all moved at that time: the result was the end of mainframes
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2015-05-03T23:31:47Z kephra: I avoided game and personal computers - did stay mainly with Unix look like systems
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2015-05-03T23:32:05Z Pixel_Outlaw: Which IBM system are you referring to?
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2015-05-03T23:32:20Z kephra: never installed any Windows - and *well* my use of Atari St resulted in an operating system for CuBase ;-)
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2015-05-03T23:33:30Z kephra: IBM DOS/VS, OS/360, MVS and VM/370 had all been distributed as source and object without charge and warranty, copyright by IBM
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2015-05-03T23:34:00Z Pixel_Outlaw: I thought those were closed source though?
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2015-05-03T23:34:20Z kephra: IBM switched this license from 24bit mainframes to 31bit mainframes, when OS became rented based on CPU speed, and development system became optional, and operating system source non accessible
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2015-05-03T23:34:40Z kephra: this killed the mainframe
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2015-05-03T23:35:09Z Pixel_Outlaw: IBM has always been the master of vendor lockin.
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2015-05-03T23:36:17Z Pixel_Outlaw: COBOL helped them greatly in this. I have no idea why people did not purchase the C compiler at the time.
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2015-05-03T23:37:04Z Pixel_Outlaw: kephra, do you know if the C compiler was more costly?
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2015-05-03T23:37:26Z kephra: C was not usual on mainframes
2015-05-03T23:37:52Z Pixel_Outlaw: I imagine IBM pushed COBOL and RPG
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2015-05-03T23:38:07Z kephra: COBOL and RPG had been workhorse
2015-05-03T23:38:17Z kephra: but also REXX as a high level scripting language
2015-05-03T23:38:24Z kephra: DB2 as one of the first SQL databases
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2015-05-03T23:38:38Z kephra: ( oh - history repeats in cycles - we are NoSQL again ;-)
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2015-05-03T23:38:50Z Pixel_Outlaw: I had the displeasure of working with AS/400 in a former job.
2015-05-03T23:39:01Z kephra: also a lot of GML code
2015-05-03T23:39:17Z kephra: GML = General Markup Language, was a precursor of SGML
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2015-05-03T23:39:48Z kephra: e.g. GML was used to define OGL, the overlay generation language to print fast on laster printers
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2015-05-03T23:40:15Z kephra: ( think about something like an HTML template engine for raw line input )
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2015-05-03T23:40:41Z kephra: OGL was 30 years ahead of XSL - and provided a similar functionality
2015-05-03T23:40:51Z kephra: ... or is that 40 years now
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2015-05-03T23:41:26Z Pixel_Outlaw: Good grief Fare is getting annoying.
2015-05-03T23:41:29Z kephra: also user interfaces could be defined in GML - thats why some mainframe coders call the browser a 3270 on steroids
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2015-05-03T23:42:16Z Pixel_Outlaw: Was GML a textual GUI library then?
2015-05-03T23:42:22Z Pixel_Outlaw: I imagine so...
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2015-05-03T23:44:32Z kephra: GML was a markup language - similar syntax to HTML - it was used for everything - similar to XML now
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2015-05-03T23:45:50Z kephra: in reallity ISPF form definitions had been highly packed data structures - but a ISPF GML generation allowed to write them in easy human readable markup
2015-05-03T23:46:47Z kephra: same with printer overlays, and many other old data structures - wrap an GML generator around it, and people no longer need to write ASM code to access them
2015-05-03T23:49:58Z kephra: yes, there had been highly memory efficient code on mainframes - e.g. CICS code, where 1000 online user (10.000 terminals multiplexed) needed to run within 4MB of core memory and offer subsecond response.
2015-05-03T23:50:13Z kephra: but lots of mainframe code had been prototyping/scripting
2015-05-03T23:50:42Z kephra: you only kill bits, when necessary - everything else was deprecicated even 1978
2015-05-03T23:51:48Z Pixel_Outlaw: How do you get training to run mainframes like those?
2015-05-03T23:52:03Z Pixel_Outlaw: Did they offer much in colleges?
2015-05-03T23:52:29Z kephra: training was mostly on the job, in my first company
2015-05-03T23:52:55Z kephra: my mom warned me: you want to become a ProgrammiererIN (note the female IN ending)
2015-05-03T23:53:44Z kephra: typist, data typist, cobol programmer was a typical woman career at that time
2015-05-03T23:54:14Z Pixel_Outlaw: Thanks Grace.
2015-05-03T23:54:17Z Pixel_Outlaw: :)
2015-05-03T23:54:35Z contrapunctus: Pixel_Outlaw: lol
2015-05-03T23:54:54Z kephra: my first shop had a few blue collar system architects - highly payed people who could draw with pencil on paper
2015-05-03T23:55:17Z kephra: and a bunch of operators and coders - all women
2015-05-03T23:55:20Z Pixel_Outlaw: Back when the hardware was not so much an abstraction/
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2015-05-03T23:55:58Z kephra: and all much older then me - I walked into the shop as a kid after school claiming: I can code ASM - and got the job, without asking
2015-05-03T23:56:40Z contrapunctus: kephra: wat.
2015-05-03T23:57:29Z kephra: contrapunctus, holyday job at 14 - 1978
2015-05-03T23:57:38Z kephra: *oups* at 12 ;-)
2015-05-03T23:58:39Z kephra: the culture there was very different to now - at first code had been written on paper
2015-05-03T23:59:06Z kephra: next it was typed into a telex to produce paper tape
2015-05-03T23:59:27Z kephra: this tape was printed and copied to magnetic tape
2015-05-03T23:59:45Z kephra: and then a group of women picked a red pencil, and marked the errors
2015-05-04T00:00:03Z kephra: and got back on my desk - compiler never did run
2015-05-04T00:00:48Z kephra: often I found a big "COPY BOOK 03DFA$ASR.READ" somewhere - with a big red cross all over my code
2015-05-04T00:01:38Z kephra: code reuse requires a culture of code reduse, I learned at that time - its not so important what language
2015-05-04T00:04:04Z Pixel_Outlaw: Did COBOL have a module system to make code reuse easy?
2015-05-04T00:04:14Z kephra: when a code finally entered the system it was bug free - not only free from bugs a compiler could detect - but more important from bugs humans could detect
2015-05-04T00:05:13Z contrapunctus: interesting.
2015-05-04T00:05:55Z Pixel_Outlaw: So the debugger's speed in returning errors depended on how comfortable her shoes were. :D
2015-05-04T00:06:22Z contrapunctus: returning...rather literally.
2015-05-04T00:07:05Z contrapunctus: I wonder if that's where the terms 'return' and 'throw' an error originated from.
2015-05-04T00:07:25Z kephra: it depended more, about how import the (compile) of a skilled coder is, if you think that development was run at lowest priority batch jobs in the day shift
2015-05-04T00:07:39Z kephra: and often had only had a few high priority slots in the night shift
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2015-05-04T00:09:17Z kephra: or think about sitting in a room with a printout of your job, that might run in the next 10 to 30 minutes - and kid comes in with a job, that will fail instantly, and only waste time
2015-05-04T00:09:46Z Pixel_Outlaw: What part of the company were you supporting? What did they do?
2015-05-04T00:10:25Z kephra: as funny as it sound: importing bananas to Europe ;-)
2015-05-04T00:11:58Z ijp: these foreign fruits are coming over here and displacing our ethnic produce
2015-05-04T00:12:52Z Pixel_Outlaw: kephra, was it mostly bookkeeping and inventory control then? Those sort of programs?
2015-05-04T00:13:14Z kephra: https://www.google.de/search?q=meine+erste+banane&tbm=isch <- ijp ... joke about eastern Germany ;-)
2015-05-04T00:14:20Z kephra: yes, thats what mainframes had been build for - lots of data, with simple calculations but precise math
2015-05-04T00:18:32Z kephra: but back to Scheme - progress of today was that I now have a full number stack, including complex and bignums - a few tests fail, e.g. with negative numbers and gcd, lcm and 3 nasty number parsing tests - but its mostly seams to work
2015-05-04T00:21:55Z Pixel_Outlaw: :D
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2015-05-04T00:24:53Z Pixel_Outlaw: kephra, I enjoy computer history. Thanks for the window into a time gone by!
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2015-05-04T04:42:33Z Pixel_Outlaw: I may not have to write a graphics terminal after all. Looks like xterm offers TEK4014 mode.
2015-05-04T04:42:35Z Pixel_Outlaw: http://www.stenyak.com/archives/1208/trick-of-the-day-rendering-graphics-in-your-terminal/
2015-05-04T04:42:36Z rudybot: http://tinyurl.com/kjocnsg
2015-05-04T04:42:50Z Pixel_Outlaw: I could write a lib to output the control codes.
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2015-05-04T05:25:47Z wasamasa: Pixel_Outlaw: maybe it's for the better
2015-05-04T05:26:10Z wasamasa: Pixel_Outlaw: btw, did you know about vector terminals and sixel?
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2015-05-04T05:39:30Z Pixel_Outlaw: wasamasa, I've not used one. But I know about GeGe and ReGIS
2015-05-04T05:39:50Z wasamasa: https://github.com/saitoha/libsixel
2015-05-04T05:39:52Z Pixel_Outlaw: I just want a language agnostic way to display pictures from ascii text from the standard out stream.
2015-05-04T05:40:32Z wasamasa: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vectrex
2015-05-04T05:40:41Z Pixel_Outlaw: I own a Vectrex.
2015-05-04T05:40:57Z wasamasa: hehe
2015-05-04T05:41:20Z Pixel_Outlaw: I like the idea of transmitting vector graphics across ssh for example.
2015-05-04T05:41:32Z Pixel_Outlaw: Even monocolor is fine.
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2015-05-04T07:26:02Z Sizur: hmm, i have a hard time googling for documentation for a function 'exists'
2015-05-04T07:26:25Z Sizur: is there any good link for a doc of standard funcs?
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2015-05-04T07:28:45Z Sizur: aha found http://www.r6rs.org/final/html/r6rs-lib/r6rs-lib-Z-H-4.html#node_chap_3
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2015-05-04T07:29:07Z Sizur: so it's arity is generalised
2015-05-04T07:29:23Z Sizur: i mean arity of the pred
2015-05-04T07:30:25Z wasamasa: srfi-1 is your friend
2015-05-04T07:31:02Z wasamasa: and your scheme implementation will be using a specific version of the rnrs standard
2015-05-04T07:31:18Z wasamasa: the one you've linked is r6rs and the base of racket for instance (who have extended it massively)
2015-05-04T07:31:43Z Sizur: thanks.
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2015-05-04T07:39:08Z Sizur: what's the => auxilary syntax in cond?
2015-05-04T07:39:51Z wasamasa: it allows you to reuse the return value of the check
2015-05-04T07:40:13Z wasamasa: http://www.schemers.org/Documents/Standards/R5RS/HTML/r5rs-Z-H-7.html#%_idx_106
2015-05-04T07:40:13Z rudybot: http://tinyurl.com/3gogwm
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2015-05-04T07:42:03Z Sizur: ah, thanks
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2015-05-04T08:42:07Z saul: Where can I find a description of what 'cons*' does? (I'm having a hard time doing a web search for it.)
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2015-05-04T08:44:58Z wasamasa: look at the RnRS index
2015-05-04T08:45:06Z wasamasa: or the docs of your scheme implementation
2015-05-04T08:45:21Z wasamasa: http://srfi.schemers.org/srfi-1/srfi-1.html#cons*
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2015-05-04T09:06:43Z saul: wasamasa, thank you! I had look at SRFI-1, but did not see it. (I use the Guile ref at https://www.gnu.org/software/guile/manual/html_node/SRFI_002d1.html#SRFI_002d1)
2015-05-04T09:06:43Z rudybot: http://tinyurl.com/m8957qy
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2015-05-04T09:49:42Z tsumetai: saul: https://www.gnu.org/software/guile/manual/html_node/List-Constructors.html#List-Constructors
2015-05-04T09:49:43Z rudybot: http://tinyurl.com/k5qfs88
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2015-05-04T11:10:06Z Sizur: any good scheme working under cygwin?
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2015-05-04T11:13:29Z kephra: Sizur, why 'under cygwin' - and not a native portable scheme?
2015-05-04T11:13:53Z kephra: e.g. Racket has an IDE and should feel right for windows users
2015-05-04T11:14:10Z kephra: and you are not locked into windows - racket is portable
2015-05-04T11:15:29Z Sizur: kephra: is racket 100% compatible with scheme?
2015-05-04T11:16:09Z kephra: no scheme is 100% compatible - Scheme is an idea/vision
2015-05-04T11:16:21Z Sizur: scheme has a standard
2015-05-04T11:16:31Z Sizur: if you are compliant to it, you are 100%+
2015-05-04T11:16:45Z Sizur: no?
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2015-05-04T11:17:00Z kephra: but Racket offers to shape the language, even into non lisp like syntax
2015-05-04T11:17:22Z kephra: so, if you question is: can Racket run SICP - yes, with the right header, telling you code SICP style
2015-05-04T11:17:25Z vraid: Sizur: scheme has several standards actually
2015-05-04T11:17:33Z Sizur: i am not arguing against racket. i think it's awesome. i am studying minikanren and it needs scheme
2015-05-04T11:18:37Z vraid: Sizur: that said, racket supports r5rs and r6rs according to their webpage
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2015-05-04T11:19:41Z Sizur: do i need to perform some invocation to use it or is it compliant out of the box with #lang racket?
2015-05-04T11:20:03Z kephra: Sizur, https://github.com/miniKanren/Racket-miniKanren <- Racket should work
2015-05-04T11:20:58Z Sizur: kephra: thank you for the research. i need to test soemthing specific on a repl https://github.com/webyrd/miniKanren-uncourse/blob/master/mk-implementations/scheme/mk.scm#L671
2015-05-04T11:20:59Z rudybot: http://tinyurl.com/ne8e8sf
2015-05-04T11:22:43Z kephra: what scheme do others in your course use?
2015-05-04T11:23:39Z Sizur: don't remember, let me check. i do know they don't run it on windoze
2015-05-04T11:25:56Z Sizur: doesnt say anywhere. and i dont remember him mentioning scheme implementations on the hangouts.  i do remember he mentioned that racket is sufficiently different that he has a compatibility file for it.
2015-05-04T11:26:57Z kephra: *ok* so take the Racket way - or try an other #lang statement on top of the files, to match your teachers Scheme style
2015-05-04T11:27:10Z kephra: he likely does SICP style, I guess
2015-05-04T11:27:24Z Sizur: well, looks like husk-scheme installed much faster than Guile is compiling
2015-05-04T11:32:40Z Sizur: that's not working.  and it's 4am and my brain is shutting down
2015-05-04T11:32:51Z Sizur: kephra: thank for trying to help
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2015-05-04T12:11:39Z kaspernissen: Are anybody in here using IronScheme ? I'm having trouble importing the threading library when calling (import (rnrs) (ironscheme threading)) - visual studio gives the error: Cannot locate library in library-path. Any ideas?
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2015-05-04T12:58:28Z kephra: Number of tests: 618 -> Number of errors: 20: 2 of them are not errors, because I translate nested quasiquotes different, 10 are caused by toy scheme look like has no cons cells, 2 are because symbols are always lower case, 3 are a nasty number->string that looks barely legal to me, one I dont understand now, one because max returns the max in its precission, and does not lower bigint to float, if a float is between, one because comparis
2015-05-04T12:58:28Z kephra: on lift bigint to float (need to get rid of this)
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2015-05-04T12:58:54Z kephra: so, basically two errors left - one I do not yet understand, and one I want to get rid of
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2015-05-04T16:19:32Z Sizur: btw, Guile compiled without problems in cygwin
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2015-05-05T01:19:34Z isaac_rks: what is Clojure's position on the crime of sodomy
2015-05-05T01:19:50Z isaac_rks: oops wrong channel
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2015-05-05T01:21:58Z grublet: you totally did that on purpose didn't you
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2015-05-05T02:12:07Z RexButler: Does scheme (racket) not include built zip function?
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2015-05-05T02:12:56Z RexButler: I'm looking for (zip_with_index '(a b c)) = '('(1 a) '(2 b) '(3 c))
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2015-05-05T02:18:36Z Tbone139: I'd sooner (map list (build-list (length input) values) input) than go looking for such a function
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2015-05-05T02:23:01Z RexButler: Are you missing a lambda in there?
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2015-05-05T02:24:09Z Tbone139: nope, 'list' by itself takes care of that: 'list' is equivalent to '(lambda(x) (list x))'
2015-05-05T02:27:18Z RexButler: Clearly, I have much to learn.
2015-05-05T02:27:31Z RexButler: I'm waiting for TSPL to show up in the mail.
2015-05-05T02:27:43Z RexButler: I have gaps because SICP is the only thing I've read.
2015-05-05T02:30:17Z Pixel_Outlaw: http://pastebin.com/4yn1c7LV
2015-05-05T02:30:24Z Pixel_Outlaw: you can set an optional start index
2015-05-05T02:31:01Z RexButler: Yes, I'm getting very good at that sort of stuff.
2015-05-05T02:31:09Z RexButler: I just thought it would be built in
2015-05-05T02:34:38Z Pixel_Outlaw: Are you using this so you can loop with an index?
2015-05-05T02:37:20Z RexButler: Yes, in this case, but no in general.  It's a built-in in Scala and Ruby, so I figured Scheme might have it.
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2015-05-05T02:38:42Z Pixel_Outlaw: I use something similar in Python
2015-05-05T02:39:07Z Pixel_Outlaw: enumerate it is called
2015-05-05T02:40:33Z Pixel_Outlaw: Actually you could do this nicely with the forbidden DO loop too. Probably quite a few ways to write your own.
2015-05-05T02:42:04Z Pixel_Outlaw: I got the 3rd edition of TSPL last week. The orange and blue cover. Not bad so far.
2015-05-05T02:43:47Z RexButler: I have Amazon Prime and fast shipping.  But then I buy used, which doesn't count.  Oh well
2015-05-05T02:44:05Z Pixel_Outlaw: I tend to purchase used too. I've been out of work for some time.
2015-05-05T02:47:52Z Pixel_Outlaw: It is really great that you can get an out of print book for very cheap. Much better than when your computer knowledge was limited to what your local library and bookstore had...
2015-05-05T02:48:31Z Pixel_Outlaw: I've been able to get quite a few books with the little MIT logo on them for very good prices.
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2015-05-05T03:05:25Z RexButler: Pixel_Outlaw: What kind of work are you looking for?
2015-05-05T03:06:53Z Pixel_Outlaw: I'd like to do systems programming and stay away from browsers and databases.
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2015-05-05T03:07:45Z Pixel_Outlaw: Also considering getting a degree in drafting and just giving up on using my associates degree.
2015-05-05T03:07:54Z Pixel_Outlaw: Which is computer science.
2015-05-05T03:08:38Z Pixel_Outlaw: I'd rather not develop for the ball of band-aids which is the modern web...
2015-05-05T03:08:54Z Tbone139: https://i.imgur.com/Q3cUg29.gif
2015-05-05T03:10:33Z Pixel_Outlaw: >:)
2015-05-05T03:11:37Z RexButler: Maybe backend work is what you are looking for?
2015-05-05T03:11:39Z grublet: Pixel_Outlaw: the modern web is a travesty; it's more like a rats nest
2015-05-05T03:11:49Z grublet: bring back html 1.0
2015-05-05T03:11:59Z grublet: make it ironic like it's a retro thing, people will fall for it
2015-05-05T03:12:11Z grublet: "what, you don't use old net? psh"
2015-05-05T03:13:02Z Pixel_Outlaw: It seems like everyone is making a LOT of flavor of the day frameworks and throwing around a lot of scripting languages just to generate a plain text document.
2015-05-05T03:13:19Z Pixel_Outlaw: It is like using a forklift with a pen on the end to write an homework assignment.
2015-05-05T03:14:13Z grublet: Pixel_Outlaw: all I know is that 1 tab of text in firefox should not suck up >1GB of memoryu
2015-05-05T03:14:16Z grublet: this shit is ridiuclous
2015-05-05T03:14:32Z Pixel_Outlaw: ^ This
2015-05-05T03:14:33Z grublet: it's why i just say forget it and use w3m or something
2015-05-05T03:14:37Z grublet: no point to all this wastage
2015-05-05T03:15:00Z grublet: all the informative pages are stuff you have to crawl the web for and they're always plaintext with maybe some tables
2015-05-05T03:15:41Z Pixel_Outlaw: Then you have to write the same thing 4 times to satisfy 4 different popular browsers.
2015-05-05T03:15:55Z Pixel_Outlaw: Because nobody set hard and cruel standards from the beginning.
2015-05-05T03:16:12Z grublet: even internet archive is a mess now
2015-05-05T03:16:25Z grublet: Pixel_Outlaw: it's the same bullshit with video signals
2015-05-05T03:16:32Z grublet: why are subsampling or interlacing STILL a thing
2015-05-05T03:16:38Z grublet: why 9001 colorspaces and coefficients
2015-05-05T03:16:40Z grublet: just why
2015-05-05T03:16:41Z Tbone139: re: standards https://xkcd.com/927/
2015-05-05T03:17:12Z grublet: Tbone139: eloquent summary of my frustration right there
2015-05-05T03:17:16Z Pixel_Outlaw: I think that webpages with errors and unofficial tags should just stop rendering.
2015-05-05T03:17:52Z Pixel_Outlaw: Any browser that uses proprietary tags cannot claim being standard compliant.
2015-05-05T03:17:59Z pnpuff: It's not time to make a changeJust relax, take it easy :)
2015-05-05T03:18:06Z grublet: >any thing that is proprietary should just stop being used
2015-05-05T03:18:08Z grublet: fixed
2015-05-05T03:19:05Z Pixel_Outlaw: lol grublet and myself can feed off each other's negativity and probably fill a page longer than the manual for mplayer.
2015-05-05T03:19:07Z Pixel_Outlaw: heh
2015-05-05T03:19:22Z grublet: Pixel_Outlaw: no one can fill a page longer than that
2015-05-05T03:20:07Z grublet: but yeah what reason is there to use javascript or css to put text and images on a screen? it's like we keep trying to make faster computers when we really should stop making slower software
2015-05-05T03:20:58Z grublet: this is why i want to learn programming at the low level because I'm hoping one day low-level programming makes a comeback
2015-05-05T03:21:06Z grublet: we're gonna hit a dead end with moore soon anyway
2015-05-05T03:21:31Z Pixel_Outlaw: grublet, you can I can just start an anti internet that works only on well established bytecodes from computer to computer.
2015-05-05T03:21:56Z Pixel_Outlaw: Tinfoil hats optional.
2015-05-05T03:23:02Z Pixel_Outlaw: Sure the server will run a Lisp based OS. Why not.
2015-05-05T03:23:04Z Pixel_Outlaw: :D
2015-05-05T03:23:04Z grublet: mandatory*
2015-05-05T03:23:27Z grublet: one day i'm gonna physically make a computer
2015-05-05T03:23:33Z grublet: start small, addrs or w/e
2015-05-05T03:23:42Z grublet: then work my way up to some basic implementation of von neumann
2015-05-05T03:24:09Z RexButler: It's not as bad as it used to be.
2015-05-05T03:24:26Z grublet: speaking of which ive been looking for a recommendation on multimetres, atm im looking at some fluke ones
2015-05-05T03:24:33Z grublet: gonna get a soldering iron as well
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2015-05-05T03:24:47Z Pixel_Outlaw: RexButler, honestly I think 90% of my problem is that I fear learning so many frameworks only to throw that knowledge away in a year.
2015-05-05T03:25:24Z Pixel_Outlaw: I try to choose languages that will last me 10+ years.
2015-05-05T03:25:50Z grublet: Pixel_Outlaw: I've avoided learning networking primarily because the number of standards and protocols is just ludicrous
2015-05-05T03:25:56Z grublet: i want to start over
2015-05-05T03:26:11Z grublet: ill go off into the woods, make a computer out of dirt and we can start over as a species
2015-05-05T03:26:11Z Pixel_Outlaw: I too kind of just skimmed though networking in college.
2015-05-05T03:26:14Z grublet: who's with me?
2015-05-05T03:26:20Z Pixel_Outlaw: You have my compiler.
2015-05-05T03:26:23Z isaac_rks: computers are evil
2015-05-05T03:26:24Z grublet: and my axe
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2015-05-05T03:26:35Z grublet: isaac_rks: <- what he said
2015-05-05T03:26:36Z isaac_rks: when I hit the woods im going to live unabomber styler
2015-05-05T03:26:45Z Pixel_Outlaw: I'm reminded of the comic where the son is passed down the parens of his father.
2015-05-05T03:26:53Z isaac_rks: already got a small hovel built in the national park
2015-05-05T03:27:06Z grublet: i'd like to be able to subsist on my own
2015-05-05T03:27:15Z isaac_rks: learn to fish and hunt
2015-05-05T03:27:20Z grublet: i think i'm just gonna go be homeless since that's the easiest way to do that
2015-05-05T03:27:21Z isaac_rks: best thing a man can learn
2015-05-05T03:27:25Z Pixel_Outlaw: Unfortunately it is very hard to live on land that is not owned.
2015-05-05T03:27:36Z pnpuff: For you will still be here tomorrow But your dreams may not
2015-05-05T03:27:40Z grublet: Pixel_Outlaw: subtle subjugation
2015-05-05T03:27:51Z grublet: don't make it illegal to live anywhere, just make it illegal not to pay for it
2015-05-05T03:27:54Z isaac_rks: being homeless sucks ive tried it
2015-05-05T03:28:04Z grublet: i've done it, i enjoyed it
2015-05-05T03:28:17Z Pixel_Outlaw: I'd be worried about finding places to bathe.
2015-05-05T03:28:18Z isaac_rks: youre vulnerable to be robbed by other streeties
2015-05-05T03:28:29Z grublet: i was never messed with
2015-05-05T03:28:39Z isaac_rks: altho I was using drugs so
2015-05-05T03:28:57Z grublet: Pixel_Outlaw: find a nice homless shelter and bathe occasionally and then spend all day at a restaurant or leech hotel wifi
2015-05-05T03:29:13Z grublet: i dont do drugs so i guess im at the benefit
2015-05-05T03:30:02Z Pixel_Outlaw: to me the corporate word is absolute death. But my degree keeps pointing me to "IT" (what the hell does that even mean anymore? Everyone who breathes infront of a computer is "IT")
2015-05-05T03:30:51Z Pixel_Outlaw: I don't mind wearing a tie so much as all the jargon and keeping people at an arm's length and putting on airs
2015-05-05T03:31:11Z Pixel_Outlaw: Oh and complete lack of engineering these days.
2015-05-05T03:31:24Z Pixel_Outlaw: Now it is very much off the shelf middleware that is from India
2015-05-05T03:31:33Z kvda: depends where you are
2015-05-05T03:31:42Z RexButler: Anyone here play chess... or know what FICS (Free Internet Chess Server) is?
2015-05-05T03:31:50Z Pixel_Outlaw: United States. Montana. (home of the Unibomber)
2015-05-05T03:31:58Z kvda: i'm in a research lab type depart of a large corp and things are really cruisy
2015-05-05T03:32:05Z grublet: home of the unixbomber
2015-05-05T03:32:06Z kvda: don't think i'd work in corp otherwise
2015-05-05T03:32:17Z isaac_rks: I'm a house painter
2015-05-05T03:32:25Z grublet: he just goes around running forkbombs in peoples terminals
2015-05-05T03:32:36Z isaac_rks: I tried programming for a job and it killed it for me
2015-05-05T03:32:52Z kvda: hah yup i'm there now, not enjoying my day to day
2015-05-05T03:33:11Z Pixel_Outlaw: I worked outside in a brickyard and found the job a very nice diversion from my personal hobby of programming.
2015-05-05T03:33:15Z isaac_rks: research lab doesn't sound so bad though?
2015-05-05T03:33:16Z kvda: but think it'd ruin house painting for me if i was housep painting all day
2015-05-05T03:33:21Z isaac_rks: yeah working outside is the best
2015-05-05T03:33:28Z Pixel_Outlaw: Yes!
2015-05-05T03:33:30Z isaac_rks: hahaha but no one likes house painting
2015-05-05T03:33:38Z isaac_rks: to start with
2015-05-05T03:33:40Z kvda: agreed, i miss outdoor stuff
2015-05-05T03:33:41Z Pixel_Outlaw: Working outside is great because it balances you working inside when you want to program.
2015-05-05T03:33:54Z Pixel_Outlaw: brb shower time
2015-05-05T03:33:58Z kvda: i used to go overseas to farms etc to work for months on end, you get so refreshed
2015-05-05T03:34:07Z isaac_rks: that WWOOF shit?
2015-05-05T03:34:18Z kvda: nawh just friends/fam
2015-05-05T03:34:26Z isaac_rks: had a few czechs n germans doing that on my uncles orchard
2015-05-05T03:34:33Z isaac_rks: one of them drowned :S
2015-05-05T03:34:44Z kvda: damn, his fault?
2015-05-05T03:36:50Z isaac_rks: nah dangerous beach
2015-05-05T03:36:54Z isaac_rks: pretty stink though
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2015-05-05T03:53:37Z Pixel_Outlaw: The outside smells like camping tonight. Hope nothing major is on fire.
2015-05-05T03:53:47Z Pixel_Outlaw: Anyone for coffee? I'm going to make coffee.
2015-05-05T03:54:21Z pnpuff: and I'm going to smoke a pipe :)
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2015-05-05T03:57:13Z Pixel_Outlaw: I've always wondered about using let within recursion. Can I assume that if I have a recursive function with let inside and recurse over a 65535 element list I'll get 65535 copies of the variables inside let?
2015-05-05T03:59:43Z Pixel_Outlaw: One for each frame on the stack...
2015-05-05T04:07:40Z Tbone139: In my experience (let) behaves well in tail-recursive functions, I've used it in cases I'd go over my memory limit otherwise
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2015-05-05T04:12:29Z Pixel_Outlaw: Just not sure if i want to write a game in Common Lisp, Scheme or Python. I need something distributable as a binary...
2015-05-05T04:12:45Z Pixel_Outlaw: Can't be bothered with C++, takes too long.
2015-05-05T04:13:17Z kvda: well python would be out wouldn't it
2015-05-05T04:13:51Z kvda: if you want a binary...
2015-05-05T04:14:06Z Pixel_Outlaw: You can compile Pygame using these horrible scripts.
2015-05-05T04:14:57Z Pixel_Outlaw: Racket might be an option if it can handle a few hundred sprites moving around. I love how easily it makes binary files.
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2015-05-05T04:28:17Z meiji11: someone needs to complete the sdl port to racket. unless you had some other library in mind.
2015-05-05T04:30:27Z Pixel_Outlaw: I'd like to make a 2D arcade spaceship shooter.
2015-05-05T04:30:40Z Pixel_Outlaw: So something that can handle 100 bullets or so coming from bosses.
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2015-05-05T04:43:50Z pnpuff: ... how they play and play for that happy day, for that happy day
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2015-05-05T05:42:10Z kvda: meiji11: bindings surely :)
2015-05-05T05:45:05Z kvda: PinealGlandOptic: this would work http://wiki.call-cc.org/eggref/4/sdl-base
2015-05-05T05:45:18Z kvda: oops that was Pixel_Outlaw
2015-05-05T05:45:23Z wasamasa: used to be
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2015-05-05T16:16:32Z Pixel_Outlaw: Good morning or if desired <insert regional time of day here>
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2015-05-05T17:46:56Z dxtr: Hello
2015-05-05T17:51:45Z ecraven: hey
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2015-05-05T18:02:06Z Pixel_Outlaw: Anyone know if Unix style pipes | wait for a program to terminate before sending data? I'm curious to see if I can keep a program running and piping data to a running Scheme program.
2015-05-05T18:03:04Z Riastradh: They do not.
2015-05-05T18:03:32Z Pixel_Outlaw: Ok, thanks. Drat.
2015-05-05T18:03:37Z Riastradh: There is a buffer.  When it fills up, the writer will wait for the reader to read more.  When it empties out, the reader will wait for the writer to write more.
2015-05-05T18:03:47Z Pixel_Outlaw: Oh I misspoke.
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2015-05-05T18:05:33Z Pixel_Outlaw: I hope to have any language be able to send my scheme program commands.
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2015-05-05T19:56:19Z tsumetai: Pixel_Outlaw: Might want to consider udp or tcp, also.
2015-05-05T19:59:50Z Riastradh: Pretty silly to involve the internet for two programs on the same machine to communicate!  Responsible use the internet also requires crypto, which makes everything more complex to engineer.
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2015-05-05T20:00:04Z Riastradh: `Responsible use *of* the internet...'
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2015-05-05T21:11:41Z tsumetai: Can't tell if you're serious. D:
2015-05-05T21:13:15Z Riastradh: Quite so.
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2015-05-05T21:28:01Z tsumetai: How are pipes preferable?
2015-05-05T21:29:02Z Riastradh: No internet involved.  Simpler code.
2015-05-05T21:34:54Z kephra: but you need two of them, you are prone of SIG PIPE, you need to flush them, and care that buffers do not overrun, and system ends in a blocking state
2015-05-05T21:35:02Z kephra: TCP IP is much easier - and more portable
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2015-05-05T21:38:16Z Riastradh: SIGPIPE: disable it.  Flush: same with internet.  Buffer overruns: ???  Blocking: same with internet.  More portable: name a system you care about that doesn't have a notion of local pipes.
2015-05-05T21:43:49Z saul: TCP/IP is faster, also, should that matter.
2015-05-05T21:44:31Z Riastradh: [citation needed]
2015-05-05T21:44:51Z saul cites himself.
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2015-05-05T21:48:22Z saul: Riastradh, here's some benchmarking that proves me wrong -- but not by much. https://wiki.openlighting.org/index.php/Pipe_vs_Unix_Socket_Performance#Linux_2.6.26-2-amd64
2015-05-05T21:48:22Z rudybot: http://eensy.teensy.info/YZmjCPpfnw
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2015-05-05T21:50:09Z pjb: That's the problem with highly optimized kernels: it doesn't matter what mechanism you use, they're all as fast.
2015-05-05T21:50:09Z pjb:  
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2015-05-06T00:01:34Z turbofail: there's always UNIX sockets, if you don't care about portability to non-unices
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2015-05-06T01:02:40Z Pixel_Outlaw: non unices are against my faith
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2015-05-06T04:54:21Z ghsk: Kruppe: they still teach scheme in waterloo?
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2015-05-06T09:03:23Z ecraven: is there a name for functions like NUMBER? that cannot throw an error and always return?
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2015-05-06T09:14:21Z Tbone139: ecraven: running (number?) without arguments yields an error, (list) works though. I'd just call it 'error-proof'
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2015-05-06T09:14:22Z tsumetai: function? :o
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2015-05-06T09:15:12Z ecraven: tsumetai: that word is highly overloadod :)
2015-05-06T09:15:24Z ecraven: Tbone139: hm.. good point
2015-05-06T09:15:35Z tsumetai: I prefer "infallible" or "unexceptional", hehe! :D
2015-05-06T09:15:51Z ecraven: unexceptional is great :D
2015-05-06T09:16:26Z Tbone139 puts an 'unexceptional' sticker on himself
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2015-05-06T10:26:32Z ecraven: evaluation of procedure call parameters is in an unspecified order, right? even in r7rs?
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2015-05-06T10:31:58Z Guest96962: Hello
2015-05-06T10:34:55Z ecraven: hey
2015-05-06T10:35:06Z Guest96962: is there anybody in here?
2015-05-06T10:35:15Z wasamasa: nope
2015-05-06T10:35:53Z Guest96962: I was looking for some help about Scheme
2015-05-06T10:36:23Z wasamasa: just ask your questions
2015-05-06T10:38:55Z Guest96962: Great. I tried to get the JazzScheme system up and running (Jazz and Jedi) but I could not build it. Tried the binaries too. Could not find the IRC channel . Anybody knows about the project?
2015-05-06T10:39:21Z wasamasa: not me
2015-05-06T10:39:36Z wasamasa: sure it's not a dead project?
2015-05-06T10:40:28Z Guest96962: The Github page has latest commit 16 hours ago
2015-05-06T10:41:35Z wasamasa: hmk
2015-05-06T10:42:37Z ecraven: Guest96962: how did you try to build it, and what went wrong?
2015-05-06T10:42:48Z ecraven: and which system are you using?
2015-05-06T10:43:28Z Guest96962: I'm on Windows 8. First I installed the MinGW platform and that was OK.
2015-05-06T10:43:30Z wasamasa: http://www.jazzscheme.org/community.htm
2015-05-06T10:43:44Z wasamasa: it should be a /join #jazzscheme away
2015-05-06T10:44:13Z ecraven: that channel is empty :)
2015-05-06T10:44:17Z Guest96962: yep
2015-05-06T10:44:20Z wasamasa: great
2015-05-06T10:44:30Z ecraven: building it now, let's see how that works
2015-05-06T10:44:41Z ecraven: but not on windows 8 :) no idea about how well that might work
2015-05-06T10:44:41Z wasamasa: well, they have at least an issue tracker
2015-05-06T10:44:52Z Guest96962: then downloaded the git package and followed instructions
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2015-05-06T10:45:17Z Guest96962: ok, gonna go that way then... Discussion group first
2015-05-06T10:45:33Z ecraven: Guest96962: stay for a minute, let's see whether it works for me
2015-05-06T10:45:47Z Guest96962: fine
2015-05-06T10:45:48Z wasamasa: Guest96962: out of curiosity, how did you find out about the project?
2015-05-06T10:45:53Z ecraven: what exactly was your problem?
2015-05-06T10:47:43Z Guest96962: i was looking for a homoiconic language to use in production.  Smalltalk Pharo, Elixir (Erlang VM), Gambit Scheme seemed the best chhoices
2015-05-06T10:48:40Z wasamasa: since racket and chicken are the scheme dialects with the largest communities
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2015-05-06T10:50:32Z ecraven: ok, compiling results in *** ERROR IN jazz:generate-symbol, "jazz/kernel/syntax/expansion.scm"@49.15 -- Unbound variable: ##string->uninterned-symbol
2015-05-06T10:50:36Z Guest96962: I launched the JAM (Jazz Scheme Manager) and it started building the system. 15 minutes later got an error message:
2015-05-06T10:50:39Z Guest96962: exactly
2015-05-06T10:51:02Z ecraven: this seems to be a problem in the code, so nothing you can do to fix it unless you want to change the code
2015-05-06T10:51:16Z wasamasa: time to open a ticket
2015-05-06T10:51:35Z ecraven: Guest96962: as wasamasa said, chicken or racket might offer a more helpful community
2015-05-06T10:52:23Z wasamasa: well, helpful is one thing
2015-05-06T10:52:39Z wasamasa: for me it's more about having a good range of libraries and people using and improving them
2015-05-06T10:52:48Z wasamasa: so that when you hit a hitch, it gets fixed quickly
2015-05-06T10:53:39Z Guest96962: Great advice.
2015-05-06T10:55:52Z wasamasa: racket comes with an IDE and is targeted at experimentation/research
2015-05-06T10:56:22Z Guest96962: Seems Gambit has great performance and the possibility of creating native mobile apps by compiling to C.
2015-05-06T10:56:51Z Guest96962: But maybe racket has more batteries included
2015-05-06T10:57:18Z wasamasa: chicken compiles to C, too
2015-05-06T10:57:50Z Guest96962: OK, gonna try it.
2015-05-06T10:58:09Z wasamasa: but there's no effort of providing an IDE or anything of that sort
2015-05-06T10:58:34Z ecraven: emacs!
2015-05-06T10:59:19Z Guest96962: That's the reason I wanted to try JazzScheme (programmable IDE , debugger)
2015-05-06T10:59:33Z ecraven: racket has that
2015-05-06T10:59:46Z ecraven: chicken as well, if you use emacs or whatever else it supports
2015-05-06T10:59:52Z Guest96962: ok
2015-05-06T10:59:58Z wasamasa: I recall another project building on top of gambit with an IDE
2015-05-06T11:00:07Z wasamasa: http://www.lambdanative.org/
2015-05-06T11:01:42Z Guest96962: That seems great.
2015-05-06T11:02:09Z Guest96962: About Racket, I found the documentation overwhelming and difficult to read
2015-05-06T11:02:40Z wasamasa: must be the academics :P
2015-05-06T11:02:46Z wasamasa: I found their docs ok
2015-05-06T11:04:35Z Guest96962: Yeah. Maybe I should go with that  and get confortable with it before trying anything hardcore
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2015-05-06T11:07:53Z Guest96962: Thank you all. You've been so kind.
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2015-05-06T11:27:15Z kephra: Guest96962, but there are people on #gambit
2015-05-06T11:28:20Z Guest96962: Ok. Gonna poke somebody over there =)
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2015-05-06T11:30:12Z kephra: you are of course welcome here (btw, you might want to register that Spyryto nick ;-)
2015-05-06T11:30:34Z kephra: but #gambit people might instantly know what to do with the error message
2015-05-06T11:31:38Z Spyryto: Sorry, don't know how to do that
2015-05-06T11:33:01Z Spyryto: ok, reading about it on freenode.net
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2015-05-16T05:41:48Z haasn: daviid: If my tutor forced me to use clojure I would embrace the opportunity to be forced to learn something new :p
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2015-05-16T15:22:49Z contrapunctus: o/
2015-05-16T15:22:57Z wbooze: sup
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2015-05-16T15:23:34Z wbooze: eheh
2015-05-16T15:24:22Z contrapunctus: o.O
2015-05-16T15:24:30Z wbooze: haha
2015-05-16T15:24:53Z wbooze: cache-invalidation is fun!
2015-05-16T15:25:01Z wbooze: ho ho ho ho
2015-05-16T15:27:11Z contrapunctus: o.o
2015-05-16T15:27:44Z contrapunctus: Is it okay to write my logs in a format like this? Any pitfalls? http://ix.io/iAA
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2015-05-16T15:29:34Z contrapunctus: (in the sense that, it's a quasiquoted list generated by a macro, as opposed to using LIST...)
2015-05-16T15:35:57Z wasamasa: not sure whether the list reusing caveat still applies
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2015-05-16T15:36:15Z contrapunctus: wasamasa: list reusing caveat? o.O
2015-05-16T15:36:27Z wasamasa: yeah, there's a warning in the elisp manual for using quotes lists
2015-05-16T15:36:34Z wasamasa: since these are preconstructed by the reader
2015-05-16T15:37:30Z wasamasa: I haven't run into it with scheme yet, doesn't mean that it's not a thing though :P
2015-05-16T15:39:09Z wasamasa: probably because you're using destructive functions a lot less
2015-05-16T15:39:14Z contrapunctus: yeah, there's that CL FAQ which warns about it too, but says don't mutate them.
2015-05-16T15:39:22Z wasamasa: that is precisely when it happens
2015-05-16T15:39:50Z wasamasa: as I understand it, a list as constructed by the reader is always reused, so when you modify it, unexpected things can happen
2015-05-16T15:43:17Z contrapunctus: wasamasa: so how would I arrive at such a list without using quote/quasiquote? I like it because it explains the fields without the person reading it having to dig into the code...
2015-05-16T15:44:02Z contrapunctus: but 'id', 'time' etc aren't defined symbols in my program.
2015-05-16T15:45:00Z wasamasa: there is an example of it for `nconc' in the elisp manual
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2015-05-16T15:55:35Z kephra: can someone explain the rationale of srfi-34, why with-exception-handler needs an additional call-with-current-continuation to return the right value ... imho with-exception-handler is just an other form of escape continuation itself ... or did I missed the point?
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2015-05-16T15:57:36Z contrapunctus: wasamasa: but...nconc's destructive :\
2015-05-16T15:57:50Z wasamasa: contrapunctus: yeah, that's why
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2015-05-16T15:58:18Z wasamasa: contrapunctus: you should be fine if you avoid such things :P
2015-05-16T15:59:07Z contrapunctus: wasamasa: what exactly does 'reuse' mean here? o.o
2015-05-16T15:59:37Z wasamasa: contrapunctus: I think ijp wrote a blog post on it
2015-05-16T15:59:44Z contrapunctus: oh, never mind, misunderstood what you said
2015-05-16T16:00:03Z contrapunctus: so I'm fine if I don't mutate this. :)
2015-05-16T16:00:03Z wasamasa: contrapunctus: http://shift-reset.com/blog/2014/2/28/List%20Mutation%20Public%20Service%20Announcement/
2015-05-16T16:00:03Z rudybot: http://eensy.teensy.info/9mCm1BiCTO
2015-05-16T16:00:30Z kephra: and btw, how to report a typo in the 13 year old SRFI 36?
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2015-05-16T16:04:38Z contrapunctus: kephra: while you're at it, there's also one in the time SRFI :D
2015-05-16T16:04:53Z contrapunctus: (nanoseconds range)
2015-05-16T16:06:07Z kephra: SRFI 36 are output-output-file and output-input-file ... s/output-/open-/g
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2015-05-16T16:06:44Z kephra: 😃
2015-05-16T16:07:05Z kephra: ¿
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2015-05-16T16:07:11Z kephra: ☹
2015-05-16T16:07:24Z Pixel_Outlaw: Thankfully I'm not on my physical terminal. :)
2015-05-16T16:07:31Z Pixel_Outlaw: Unicode spooks it.
2015-05-16T16:08:01Z wbooze: oh man
2015-05-16T16:08:53Z Pixel_Outlaw: I have to be feeling especially retro to flick it on though.
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2015-05-16T16:10:57Z zacts: morning
2015-05-16T16:11:25Z phale: is there a procedure that check if a string contains another string? (i.e, needle in haystack)
2015-05-16T16:11:49Z phale: i'm using CHICKEN scheme
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2015-05-16T16:14:24Z wasamasa: CHICKEN has a bunch of useful string procedures in the data-structures unit
2015-05-16T16:14:35Z phale: i'll look into that
2015-05-16T16:15:14Z wasamasa: which are faster than the string SRFI
2015-05-16T16:15:29Z wasamasa: http://api.call-cc.org/doc/data-structures#sec:Strings
2015-05-16T16:15:49Z mario-goulart: phale: probably substring-index
2015-05-16T16:15:57Z mario-goulart: (it's CHICKEN-specific)
2015-05-16T16:16:46Z mario-goulart: If you want something portable, check SRFI-13's string-contains.
2015-05-16T16:16:48Z wasamasa: http://srfi.schemers.org/srfi-13/srfi-13.html
2015-05-16T16:16:52Z phale: okay
2015-05-16T16:17:13Z wasamasa wonders whether http://wiki.call-cc.org/eggref/4/s is any good
2015-05-16T16:17:18Z wasamasa: it's stolen from emacs after all
2015-05-16T16:17:31Z mario-goulart has never used
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2015-05-16T16:20:47Z phale: thanks guys
2015-05-16T16:20:51Z phale: substring-index matches my needs
2015-05-16T16:20:54Z contrapunctus: Does anyone ever feel the need for an 'update' procedure for collections? Like set! but functional...(update <collection> (<element ref> <new value>) (...) ...)
2015-05-16T16:21:00Z phale: might need to use srfi-13 for portability later on, though
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2015-05-16T16:42:08Z contrapunctus: (not set!, but something like vector-set!)
2015-05-16T16:43:07Z daviid: contrapunctus: https://github.com/ijp/pfds
2015-05-16T16:44:11Z mario-goulart: also http://wiki.call-cc.org/eggref/4/persistent-hash-map
2015-05-16T16:44:52Z mario-goulart: and http://wiki.call-cc.org/eggref/4/arrays
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2015-05-16T16:46:04Z vraid: contrapunctus: it's a bit complicated with vectors. unless you copy the whole vector, is the result still a vector?
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2015-05-16T16:47:17Z contrapunctus: thanks, daviid , mario-goulart . vraid - not sure I follow
2015-05-16T16:48:37Z contrapunctus: I meant something that works with many/all kinds of collections, though. It sounds more convenient (but I'm a newb, so it's possible it's a bad idea...)
2015-05-16T16:50:07Z mario-goulart: contrapunctus: maybe something like http://wiki.call-cc.org/eggref/4/sequences ?
2015-05-16T16:51:10Z daviid: vraid: https://github.com/ijp/fectors
2015-05-16T16:51:51Z vraid: daviid: intersting, what is the structure like?
2015-05-16T16:53:01Z contrapunctus: interesting, thanks, mario-goulart :)
2015-05-16T16:53:32Z vraid: daviid: if you keep updating elements in an immutable vector, won't you end up with something more like a tree or hash map?
2015-05-16T16:53:37Z vraid: unless you copy the whole vector
2015-05-16T16:54:13Z phale: is there an equivalent to string-split but with a limit, like: (split "hello there friends" " " 2)
2015-05-16T16:54:20Z phale: which will return "there friends"
2015-05-16T16:54:46Z phale: "friends", sorry
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2015-05-16T18:05:35Z phale: the little schemer :)
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2015-05-16T18:32:23Z zacts: that's a fun book
2015-05-16T18:32:43Z zacts: It's actually in my top 3 list of favorite computer books of all time
2015-05-16T18:32:52Z zacts: just because it's so fun
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2015-05-16T18:48:17Z Pixel_Outlaw: I've got the sequel in the mail.
2015-05-16T18:49:17Z zacts: there was a successor language to prolog I saw
2015-05-16T18:49:22Z zacts: I don't know if it ever caught on though
2015-05-16T18:49:43Z Pixel_Outlaw: I actually found a copy of TLS at a local Hastings book store. Seemed very out of place in a shelf filled with the latest Microsoft Windows, C++, Java, SQL, and C# books.
2015-05-16T18:50:00Z zacts: hah
2015-05-16T18:50:05Z zacts: the goedel programming language
2015-05-16T18:50:11Z zacts: here is a cool list of logic programming books
2015-05-16T18:50:17Z zacts: http://mitpress.mit.edu/books/series/inactive-series/logic-programming
2015-05-16T18:50:27Z zacts: http://mitpress.mit.edu/books/g%C3%B6del-programming-language
2015-05-16T18:50:35Z zacts: ^ and here is the book on the goedel programming language
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2015-05-16T18:51:31Z zacts: oh am I on the wrong channel?
2015-05-16T18:51:42Z zacts: sorry this was meant for #chicken
2015-05-16T18:51:45Z zacts: ^ ASau
2015-05-16T18:52:14Z Pixel_Outlaw: I'll bet half of us are in both. Possibly in #lisp and #emacs too.
2015-05-16T18:53:20Z zacts: yeah
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2015-05-16T19:05:32Z zacts: ASau: https://www.udemy.com/cs-107-programming-paradigms/
2015-05-16T19:05:35Z zacts: ^ I found this
2015-05-16T19:05:54Z zacts: although, I'm skeptical of the "paradigms" view of teaching programming, but they cover a wide base
2015-05-16T19:06:10Z zacts: and they cover: scheme / C / asm / C++ / java / python / and a few others I think
2015-05-16T19:06:21Z zacts: for a general overview and feel of various programming styles
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2015-05-16T19:06:43Z zacts: cool they even have ascii txt transcriptions of the lectures
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2015-05-16T20:09:53Z ASau: zacts: I don't like the way people pick up languages when explaining paradigms.
2015-05-16T20:11:02Z ASau: zacts: there's really no need to pick assembly, C, C++ and Python, all four to show imperative paradigm.
2015-05-16T20:11:12Z ASau: One is more than enough.
2015-05-16T20:11:25Z ASau: Yet, C++ or Python are horrible choices to demonstrate even OO way.
2015-05-16T20:11:49Z ASau: The reason is that their "OO" is mostly procedural.
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2015-05-16T20:31:54Z ASau: zacts: another unclear thing is how they distinguish between paralell and rest, e.g. functional and "OO."
2015-05-16T20:33:58Z ASau: Consider I create a number of asynchronously computed futures in my program in Scheme.
2015-05-16T20:34:31Z ASau: Am I working in functional paradigm?
2015-05-16T20:36:06Z ASau: (map (lambda (fut) (force fut)) (map (lambda (e) (future (fun e))) input))
2015-05-16T20:36:36Z ASau: Or is it parallel already?
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2015-05-16T20:52:03Z zacts: yeah
2015-05-16T20:52:05Z zacts: I see
2015-05-16T20:52:29Z zacts: yeah, personally I've been feeling my own critique against modern university level curriculum at least in the USA
2015-05-16T20:52:40Z zacts: I don't like the concept of a Major
2015-05-16T20:52:43Z zacts: area of study
2015-05-16T20:52:57Z zacts: "I'm going to school to be a doctor, engineer, architect, etc..."
2015-05-16T20:53:05Z zacts: perhaps later on but not for undergrad
2015-05-16T20:53:30Z zacts: or they could fix the highschools to actually teach students cool shit
2015-05-16T20:53:40Z zacts: but overall it's broken imo
2015-05-16T20:54:05Z zacts: anyway, I've recently had feelings against separating the areas of study into categories for undergrad
2015-05-16T20:54:23Z zacts: namely: humanities / philosophy / mathematics / physics / science / engineering / arts & music
2015-05-16T20:55:07Z zacts: so perhaps my feelings are trickling over to an initial feeling of skepticism for a heavy pardigm separated approach to teaching comp sci
2015-05-16T20:55:29Z zacts: so to cite some papers on these two styles, and to side with the one I most resonate with:
2015-05-16T20:55:34Z zacts: (currently resonate with)
2015-05-16T20:56:08Z zacts: 1) https://www.info.ucl.ac.be/~pvr/VanRoyChapter.pdf
2015-05-16T20:56:41Z zacts: 2) http://cs.brown.edu/~sk/Publications/Papers/Published/sk-teach-pl-post-linnaean/paper.pdf
2015-05-16T20:56:42Z rudybot: http://eensy.teensy.info/eBSnr7nEg8
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2015-05-16T20:56:50Z zacts: currently I resonate more with the 2nd pdf
2015-05-16T20:57:01Z zacts: (which also so happens to be authored by the author of PLAI)
2015-05-16T20:57:28Z zacts: but this is without really having gone through both curriculum in any way
2015-05-16T20:57:35Z zacts: so it's purely just an initial impression
2015-05-16T20:58:30Z zacts: anyway, I feel that the separation of Humanities / Mathematics / etc... is often too strict, and often limiting to the mind when we follow those seemingly artificial barriers
2015-05-16T21:01:05Z zacts: anyway, I wish I could find a good tobacco shop in town
2015-05-16T21:01:22Z zacts: I don't smoke, but I've been craving the smell and taste of flavored tobacco.
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2015-05-16T21:01:36Z zacts: I've smoked a cigarette perhaps once every 5 years
2015-05-16T21:02:00Z zacts: I prefer to not smoke corporate cigs, and for sure not those stupid e-cigs...
2015-05-16T21:02:12Z zacts: If you are going to smoke just smoke the natural self rolled tobacco
2015-05-16T21:02:20Z zacts: why settle for anything less?
2015-05-16T21:02:49Z zacts: anyway, don't smoke people!
2015-05-16T21:03:11Z vraid: smoke plants, not people!
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2015-05-16T21:06:04Z zacts: vraid: indeed
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2015-05-16T21:06:17Z zacts: ok, so google now apparently knows how to spell check irc nicks
2015-05-16T21:06:33Z zacts: it deduced that I should use 'bitemyapp' instead of 'bytemyapp' for the search 'github bytemyapp'
2015-05-16T21:06:47Z zacts: (bitemyapp hosts a haskell tutorial repo)
2015-05-16T21:07:26Z zacts: and this was indeed spellcheck and not autosuggestions
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2015-05-16T21:07:47Z zacts: craziness
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2015-05-16T21:35:04Z DrDuck2: would someone mind explaining two-dimensional tables from section 3.3.3 of sicp and how to actually approach exercise 3.25?
2015-05-16T21:35:23Z DrDuck2: I can't make sense of how the table in figure 3.23 is stored, for example.
2015-05-16T21:35:30Z DrDuck2: with the code they provide in the book
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2015-05-16T22:03:18Z spew: DrDuck2: have you personally re-typed out all the code?
2015-05-16T22:03:25Z spew: I don't think I understood it until I did that
2015-05-16T22:04:30Z DrDuck2: I did, yes. I'm not sure how to even provide the right data to make-table or insert! or what have you for figure 3.23 though.
2015-05-16T22:05:51Z spew: oh well... it's been too long for me to remember anything more specific :(
2015-05-16T22:07:10Z DrDuck2: Ahh and I mean't I needed help with exercise 3.24. Not 3.25.
2015-05-16T22:07:23Z DrDuck2: I think some of how the 2d table works is clicking a little, though.
2015-05-16T22:09:46Z DrDuck2: Ahh ok. So for the make-table object, if I were to call something like (put 'math '+ 43) (put 'math '- 45) (put 'math '* 42), I would get something like the lower half of figure 3.23.
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2015-05-16T22:10:26Z DrDuck2: I thought it was something like (put 'math '+ 43) would put the key 'math in the lower half and '+ 43 in the upper half.
2015-05-16T22:10:32Z DrDuck2: That helps a little atleast.
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2015-05-16T23:32:27Z zacts: http://www.cis.upenn.edu/~bcpierce/sf/current/index.html
2015-05-16T23:32:29Z zacts: ^ a cool book
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2015-05-17T03:59:38Z zacts: I'm finding it so difficult to go back into perl-land after living in scheme-land
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2015-05-17T04:30:15Z Pixel_Outlaw: Too much syntax?
2015-05-17T04:30:16Z Pixel_Outlaw: :)
2015-05-17T04:33:55Z zacts: Pixel_Outlaw: indeed
2015-05-17T04:34:15Z zacts: man this realm of racket is so entertaining
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2015-05-17T11:30:17Z kephra: is it possible to implement eval with apply?
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2015-05-17T11:34:04Z kephra: ... without writing an interpreter loop ;-)
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2015-05-17T11:51:33Z pjb: kephra: yes.
2015-05-17T11:52:08Z pjb: kephra: see aim-8
2015-05-17T11:52:20Z pjb: http://www.informatimago.com/develop/lisp/com/informatimago/small-cl-pgms/aim-8/aim-8.html
2015-05-17T11:52:20Z rudybot: http://eensy.teensy.info/WgBEBdrgCm
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2015-05-17T12:02:30Z kephra: pjb, *lol* yeah - but my "problem" is, that I'm translating nested quasiquotes directly into cons,list,append,quote constructs
2015-05-17T12:02:39Z kephra: so I came up with the following http://upaste.me/a5ef1930334952e5a
2015-05-17T12:03:19Z kephra: my question now is: nested quasi quotes do not make any sense, if you can not eval or expand them
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2015-05-17T12:03:58Z kephra: and r4rs defines nested qq, but neither eval, or a special expand operation for them to call instead
2015-05-17T12:04:04Z kephra: ... where do I miss the point?
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2015-05-17T12:14:30Z pjb: kephra: quasiquotes are used in code, therefore those cons,list,append,quote constructs will be compiled. You don't need eval.
2015-05-17T12:14:49Z kephra: http://upaste.me/ <- this code for nested qq works outside the r4rs test environment
2015-05-17T12:15:08Z pjb: (at least, that's r4rs point of view.  I'd agree it's a little snobish to tell you you don't need eval, but that's scheme for you).
2015-05-17T12:15:56Z kephra: pjb, well - i've implemented a lot r4rs extensions, e.g. eval and environments
2015-05-17T12:16:03Z pjb: Indeed.
2015-05-17T12:16:15Z kephra: they are necessary, imho
2015-05-17T12:16:24Z kephra: eval = necessary evil
2015-05-17T12:16:49Z pjb: If you want to test quasiquoted data, you could use eval, or compare with expected sexps containing those cons,list,append,quote.
2015-05-17T12:16:58Z kephra: or do you can see any sane way to test !nested! quasiquotes without eval?
2015-05-17T12:17:11Z pjb: (assert (equal '`(a ,b) '(list 'a b)))
2015-05-17T12:17:47Z pjb: note the quote before quasiquote.
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2015-05-17T12:21:46Z kephra: this wont work, even if adding a ? after equal
2015-05-17T12:23:03Z pjb: why not?
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2015-05-17T12:23:57Z kephra: try it in a r4rs
2015-05-17T12:24:13Z pjb: no, on YOUR implementation of backquote.
2015-05-17T12:24:17Z pjb: You want to test it.
2015-05-17T12:24:34Z kephra: (write '`(a ,b)) -> (quasiquote (a (unquote b))) ; in s9
2015-05-17T12:24:55Z pjb: Then (assert (equal? '`(a ,b) '(quasiquote (a (unquote b)))))
2015-05-17T12:25:02Z pjb: But you LIED to me!
2015-05-17T12:25:10Z pjb: You said that you used cons,list,append,quote.
2015-05-17T12:25:21Z pjb: Therefore I'm off to bed.
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2015-05-17T12:29:05Z kephra: the reader translates ` , and ,@ into quasiquote, unquote and unquote-splice - quasiquote itself will translate nested qqs into an sexpressions constructed by cons,list,append
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2015-05-17T12:29:37Z kephra: so i'm behaving same way for normal qq - but nested qq's are only equal after eval
2015-05-17T12:30:24Z kephra: http://upaste.me/e73d1930453828c60 <- is my current work around
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2015-05-17T14:41:45Z saulg: kephra, have you posted the source of you quasiquote macro?
2015-05-17T14:42:03Z saulg: *YOUR quasi...
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2015-05-17T15:55:26Z phale: http://codepad.org/GknW5MZ7 Why does my program create a partial MD5 hash?
2015-05-17T15:55:37Z phale: It's 16 characters, when it should be longer than that
2015-05-17T15:55:44Z phale: Also it changes, which isn't usual
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2015-05-17T17:12:34Z kephra: saulg, http://upaste.me/4eb919306a1b33009 <- those are the relevant parts of http://o3db.com/proto/o3scm.js
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2015-05-17T17:13:39Z kephra: saulg, so my quasiquote is a native special form, not a macro
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2015-05-17T17:16:58Z kephra: saulg,  the "code.push({ q:r, e:this.e, p:this.p }); return; /* continuation */" means, that quasiquotes itself will not return a value, but pushes code a q:ueue command to activation stack with same e:nvironment and stack p:ile
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2015-05-17T17:17:59Z kephra: *oups* the /code/ belongs between activation and stack, not after pushes
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2015-05-18T02:39:45Z Guest96: sdf
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2015-05-18T03:35:56Z zacts: why sdf? why not asd? or dfg?
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2015-05-18T03:37:24Z Pixel_Outlaw: zacts are you a college student by chance?
2015-05-18T03:37:38Z zacts: Pixel_Outlaw: yeah
2015-05-18T03:37:43Z zacts: but not for this summer session
2015-05-18T03:38:10Z Pixel_Outlaw: I'm kind of in a dry spell for programming.
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2015-05-18T03:38:13Z zacts: my last session was last fall, and I worked for a few months until now
2015-05-18T03:38:22Z zacts: and my job was computer related
2015-05-18T03:38:34Z zacts: Pixel_Outlaw: please, do explain
2015-05-18T03:38:50Z Pixel_Outlaw: I'm programming out of habit rather than inspiration.
2015-05-18T03:38:55Z Pixel_Outlaw: I need to take a break.
2015-05-18T03:39:04Z Pixel_Outlaw: But there is not much else to do in this town.
2015-05-18T03:39:10Z zacts: yeah, that happened to me recently actually, I was off the computer for a few weeks
2015-05-18T03:39:23Z zacts: and I decided to read, and hang out with people
2015-05-18T03:39:34Z zacts: and listen to music, and jam and stuff
2015-05-18T03:39:48Z Pixel_Outlaw: My friends from college mostly left. Nobody I know can write a line of source code.
2015-05-18T03:40:20Z zacts: yeah, I don't like my town much either, I hope to move sometime in the near future... (which may happen sooner than later)
2015-05-18T03:40:39Z zacts: although, I'm seriously looking at this college I'm interested in
2015-05-18T03:40:54Z Pixel_Outlaw: Well I don't want a web/database job nor a networking job so I've got no real town to move to.
2015-05-18T03:41:11Z zacts: Pixel_Outlaw: the key point, is that you are not alone in experiencing these issues
2015-05-18T03:41:15Z zacts: and there are solutions
2015-05-18T03:41:46Z zacts: Pixel_Outlaw: do you cook a lot? or have you ever worked at a fresh fish market or farm?
2015-05-18T03:42:02Z zacts: one thing I'm going to do is volunteer for a local farm, for free produce in return
2015-05-18T03:42:11Z Pixel_Outlaw: No, I worked in a brickyard loading trucks and found it a nice job to have with a computer science hobby.
2015-05-18T03:42:20Z zacts: ah yeah
2015-05-18T03:42:38Z zacts: tbh, I found myself not liking the tech industry
2015-05-18T03:42:54Z Pixel_Outlaw: I'd rather not work for a fortune 500 company if they just want an it person who avoids programming to use middleware.
2015-05-18T03:42:56Z zacts: and recently I've been taking steps to go in a different direction, while still being able to keep it as a joy of mine
2015-05-18T03:43:13Z zacts: I only want to code, do computer work on my own terms
2015-05-18T03:43:21Z Pixel_Outlaw: Avoiding programming and using tools that are off the shelf is the theme anymore.
2015-05-18T03:43:35Z zacts: and I see programming as a more creative intellectual endeavor of mine, and I didn't want the job to get in the way of that
2015-05-18T03:43:42Z Pixel_Outlaw: Yes.
2015-05-18T03:44:18Z Pixel_Outlaw: Now you just whip up crap hump a few web frameworks and stay up at unholy hours fixing broken and rushed production code.
2015-05-18T03:44:33Z Pixel_Outlaw: That is my view of the corporate world.
2015-05-18T03:44:49Z zacts: I've been offered large lumps of money before to do computer work, and I eventually got the confidence and refused... I saw that it wouldn't really make me personally happy in my life. I want to do more charity / volunteer / college / creative / artistik / focus on my friends and family...
2015-05-18T03:45:45Z zacts: also I like doing dishwashing jobs too
2015-05-18T03:45:56Z Pixel_Outlaw: I love writing software for people to use. But I can hardly go and sell it with most problems solved by open source stuff. (I don't blame open source, it is a good thing)
2015-05-18T03:46:16Z zacts: yeah
2015-05-18T03:46:38Z zacts: I was working crazy hours with tons of projects for a while too.. and the expectations are high. (often unrealistic)
2015-05-18T03:46:45Z zacts: instead of letting software and things naturally grow
2015-05-18T03:46:59Z zacts: it was more forced upon, by demands of investors and clients
2015-05-18T03:47:27Z zacts: and IT work is just to hektic for me... now doing kernel dev work could be cool, like Linux Foundation (or equivalent)
2015-05-18T03:47:34Z Pixel_Outlaw: Well I think the problem is all these flavor of the months methodologies. Agile is not the magic pill. The magic pill is for the boss to learn the damn team they are running and assign tasks based on ability and developer feedback. "It will be done when it's done"
2015-05-18T03:47:55Z zacts: but, yeah unless I do my own startup and everything is on my terms, I've decided I don't want to waste my time doing it, personally
2015-05-18T03:48:19Z zacts: and my startup would be fully opensourced too
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2015-05-18T03:48:42Z Pixel_Outlaw: startups are a pipe dream for most people unless you can find a need and really fill it
2015-05-18T03:48:51Z zacts: I just couldn't personally do it any other way... I would rather be a dishwasher... (even in my country with no health insurance, and benefits)
2015-05-18T03:49:08Z Pixel_Outlaw: Where are you?
2015-05-18T03:49:10Z zacts: thus, I'm going in a different direction with my graduate studies
2015-05-18T03:49:12Z zacts: Pixel_Outlaw: USA
2015-05-18T03:49:17Z Pixel_Outlaw: Montana here.
2015-05-18T03:49:21Z zacts: but I'm still undergrad now
2015-05-18T03:49:21Z zacts: NM
2015-05-18T03:49:53Z Pixel_Outlaw: I can only imagine how horrible the application rejection programs will be by the time you get done...
2015-05-18T03:50:12Z Pixel_Outlaw: They pretty much reject anything that does not mirror key phrases word for word.
2015-05-18T03:50:15Z zacts: now, I have nothing against people who love corporate IT work, it just wasn't for me
2015-05-18T03:50:25Z Pixel_Outlaw: I've worked at two fortune 500s.
2015-05-18T03:50:32Z Pixel_Outlaw: Screw em both.
2015-05-18T03:50:36Z zacts: heh
2015-05-18T03:50:45Z zacts: yeah, I hate corporate structures, and bs
2015-05-18T03:51:00Z Pixel_Outlaw: typical hacker attitudes.
2015-05-18T03:51:01Z Pixel_Outlaw: :)
2015-05-18T03:51:09Z Pixel_Outlaw: maybe typical human attitudes.
2015-05-18T03:51:21Z zacts: and I even may go as far to say, some of the promisies of the corporate dream are pipedreams
2015-05-18T03:51:27Z Pixel_Outlaw: hahaha!
2015-05-18T03:51:28Z Pixel_Outlaw: Oh man.
2015-05-18T03:51:52Z Pixel_Outlaw: Really rank is nothing more than a lever to force you to work longer hours. I'd take less pay and more time away myself.
2015-05-18T03:51:57Z zacts: there is often a promise of moeny and higher-level positions, and then what happens? (you are out of business, and your technologies are now obsolete)
2015-05-18T03:52:35Z Pixel_Outlaw: "Mr. Outlaw we would like to make you Sr. Developer"
2015-05-18T03:52:38Z Pixel_Outlaw: A: HELL NO
2015-05-18T03:52:47Z zacts: ah damn, you mean all of my X-language-here code is no longer trendy?
2015-05-18T03:53:13Z zacts: but yeah...
2015-05-18T03:53:17Z Pixel_Outlaw: I imagine it is much much worse for web devs chasing the flavor of the month frameworks.
2015-05-18T03:53:28Z zacts: too many high expectations, and needless stress for me
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2015-05-18T03:54:14Z zacts: now I don't mind healthy adrenaline, and friendly competition of projects, but not crazy stress
2015-05-18T03:54:27Z Pixel_Outlaw: "I am willing to give 100% and my very best work during the agreed upon hours, the role if a job is to enslave me for the money I need then get the hell out of my wan and the end of a shift"
2015-05-18T03:54:37Z Pixel_Outlaw: *way
2015-05-18T03:55:15Z zacts: Luckily I took some advice on college I got, to not pick a major right away
2015-05-18T03:55:23Z zacts: kind of take classes and explore a bit
2015-05-18T03:55:43Z zacts: and now I have no desire for any specific major, although later on I'll likely choose more of a focal point
2015-05-18T03:56:11Z Pixel_Outlaw: Mine is computer science and it is pointed in the opposite direction as the industry.
2015-05-18T03:56:24Z zacts: yeah, I'm definitely interested in comp sci
2015-05-18T03:56:36Z Pixel_Outlaw: "Let's learn how computers work" vs "Lets avoid learning how computers work"
2015-05-18T03:56:44Z zacts: but not what the standard definition of comp sci is these days
2015-05-18T03:57:12Z zacts: but right now I'm self-teaching and going for more of a philosophy / mathematics way of thinking
2015-05-18T03:57:23Z zacts: a general non-specific education
2015-05-18T03:57:51Z zacts: I'm at a state of questioning everything in my life right now
2015-05-18T03:58:01Z Pixel_Outlaw: Just be sure you have something real when you get done and not fingerpainting or basket weaving.
2015-05-18T03:58:13Z Pixel_Outlaw: Welcome to your 20's.
2015-05-18T03:58:22Z zacts: ah yeah, a PHD specifically in my tad pole ecology focus
2015-05-18T03:58:27Z zacts: that's my life goal
2015-05-18T03:58:36Z zacts: (although, tbh I have deep respect for such people)
2015-05-18T03:58:42Z Pixel_Outlaw: with minor in social justice
2015-05-18T03:58:48Z zacts: heh
2015-05-18T03:59:29Z zacts: well luckily I technically still have a 4.0 accredited college GPA, and I'm going to apply for the Phi Beta Kappa soon
2015-05-18T03:59:43Z zacts: (which I could care less about, but scholarships / letters of recommendation / etc...)
2015-05-18T04:00:41Z zacts: but, I really have been getting the attitude of I just don't care
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2015-05-18T04:01:12Z Pixel_Outlaw: How many years of college do you have left?
2015-05-18T04:01:13Z zacts: so I'm still young enough, and feel I'm in a position, to where I can take a risk for a better college education
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2015-05-18T04:01:29Z zacts: Pixel_Outlaw: all of undergrad, and everything else
2015-05-18T04:01:36Z zacts: 3 years of undergrad
2015-05-18T04:02:00Z zacts: depending, I may be starting from scratch in terms of years, if I go to one of the colleges I want to attend
2015-05-18T04:02:25Z Pixel_Outlaw: My advice is to just have fun and enjoy college friends.
2015-05-18T04:02:31Z zacts: indeed
2015-05-18T04:02:35Z zacts: that's what I'm hoping for
2015-05-18T04:02:37Z Pixel_Outlaw: Have fun but keep those grades where they need to be.
2015-05-18T04:02:54Z zacts: and I'll hopefully be lucky enough to not have to pay for most of my education
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2015-05-18T04:05:35Z Pixel_Outlaw: I'd say try and find people who love programming start a project.
2015-05-18T04:05:42Z Pixel_Outlaw: You'll not always have people who share your interests.
2015-05-18T04:05:49Z Pixel_Outlaw: College is great for that.
2015-05-18T04:11:04Z zacts: yes
2015-05-18T04:11:46Z Pixel_Outlaw: If you want to help me on a little project I wouldn't mind.
2015-05-18T04:11:54Z Pixel_Outlaw: On that forum software.
2015-05-18T04:12:02Z zacts: Pixel_Outlaw: what is it?
2015-05-18T04:12:19Z zacts: although, tbh I do have some pretty big study / project goals currently myself
2015-05-18T04:12:32Z Pixel_Outlaw: Ah probably best to do those.
2015-05-18T04:12:39Z zacts: hm...
2015-05-18T04:12:45Z zacts: we could still at least chat about it
2015-05-18T04:12:58Z zacts: and if I find interest and time then perhaps I could do something
2015-05-18T04:13:01Z zacts: don't know...
2015-05-18T04:13:02Z zacts: :-)
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2015-05-18T15:17:59Z foof: looking for early authors for snow2 packages: http://snow-fort.org/doc
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2015-05-18T15:26:43Z wasamasa: hmm, just noticed that chibi's homepage has a broken image
2015-05-18T15:27:04Z wasamasa: I can display it in the code inspector though
2015-05-18T15:27:05Z wasamasa: weird
2015-05-18T15:27:42Z foof: there's only one image, and it renders for me in chrome
2015-05-18T15:28:41Z taylanub: works for me on Firefox/Conkeror
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2015-05-18T15:29:09Z wasamasa: must be some caching gone wrong as force-reloading gives me the image
2015-05-18T15:29:11Z wasamasa: oh well
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2015-05-18T15:30:11Z wasamasa: "Size: Unknown (not cached)"
2015-05-18T15:30:12Z wasamasa: ._.
2015-05-18T15:30:33Z taylanub: first time I'm hearing Chibi intends to implement other languages
2015-05-18T15:33:07Z foof: that's what (chibi parse) is for... lower priority these days
2015-05-18T15:33:47Z taylanub: foof: would be neat if I can get my SRFI repo on Snow, though I don't actively work on it these days
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2015-05-18T15:35:24Z foof: taylanub: if you still provide bugfixes I think it would definitely be helpful
2015-05-18T15:35:54Z taylanub: I'll have to decide between boldly squatting the (srfi x) library namespace in which case I'd need to make the project more "public", and keeping control over it to ensure its cleanliness (for my tastes?)
2015-05-18T15:36:48Z foof: snow-fort allows for competing implementations, though you force users to choose from a list on install
2015-05-18T15:37:22Z taylanub: ah, so a library name does not uniquely identify an implementation .. that makes sense and is neat actually
2015-05-18T15:37:40Z wasamasa: sounds like alternatives in distro package managers
2015-05-18T15:37:46Z foof: I'll later add config options so users can, e.g. filter all of taylanub's (srfi x) libraries :)
2015-05-18T15:38:21Z taylanub: :D
2015-05-18T15:38:31Z foof: wasamasa: not so sophisticated yet, you can only have one alternative installed at a time
2015-05-18T15:38:57Z taylanub: (they're just reference implementations really...)
2015-05-18T15:39:08Z wasamasa: foof: well, that's the way it is here on arch for me
2015-05-18T15:39:14Z wasamasa: foof: I don't recall debian any differently
2015-05-18T15:39:28Z wasamasa: foof: the only linux distribution where I could have multiple installed was nixos
2015-05-18T15:39:56Z taylanub: Debian lets you install two packages that provide the same feature and alternate between them via the /etc/alternatives symlink farm
2015-05-18T15:40:08Z taylanub: s/two/multiple
2015-05-18T15:40:13Z foof: debian allows you to install multiple packages that provide /usr/bin/editor (for example), and you can toggle which is linked at any time
2015-05-18T15:40:37Z wasamasa: sounds nix-like
2015-05-18T15:41:29Z foof: way past my bedtime...
2015-05-18T15:41:36Z taylanub: superficially, yeah.  don't think symlink farms are unique to nix or invented by nix though.  IIRC GNU Stow does something similar.
2015-05-18T15:41:42Z taylanub: foof: good night :)
2015-05-18T15:42:07Z Pixel_Outlaw: But it's only 9:41 American Freedom time!
2015-05-18T15:42:11Z Pixel_Outlaw: *AM
2015-05-18T15:42:55Z contrapunctus: o/
2015-05-18T15:43:15Z contrapunctus: How accurate does everyone consider the first answer here? http://stackoverflow.com/questions/16651843/why-does-not-exist-a-primitive-call-with-current-continuations-in-common-lisp?rq=1
2015-05-18T15:43:15Z rudybot: http://eensy.teensy.info/sczLo5KoMv
2015-05-18T15:43:52Z contrapunctus: hrm...maybe I should've posted that in ##lisp or somesuch :|
2015-05-18T15:46:33Z Pixel_Outlaw: I remember "bike" in #lisp knowing things fairly deeply. Maybe he can help.
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2015-05-18T15:48:30Z contrapunctus: Pixel_Outlaw: cool. Note that I wrote ##lisp, though - I suspect one can't (hope to) get an unbiased answer save for in a general Lisp channel as opposed to a specific dialect channel...
2015-05-18T15:49:23Z wasamasa: the answer sounds about right to me
2015-05-18T15:51:38Z Pixel_Outlaw: contrapunctus, I assumed a typo. What does ## prefixed to a room name mean?
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2015-05-18T15:52:29Z contrapunctus: Pixel_Outlaw: freenode guidelines say # for official project channels, ## for anything else. Not strictly enforced, though.
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2015-05-18T15:53:41Z contrapunctus: #lisp is the CL channel, ##lisp is general clojure/cl/scheme/etc.
2015-05-18T15:53:57Z kephra: Pixel_Outlaw, ## means about - so, ##sailing means about Sailing
2015-05-18T15:54:03Z Pixel_Outlaw: Got it.
2015-05-18T15:54:18Z wasamasa: ##lisp is the reaction to CL grabbing #lisp
2015-05-18T15:54:29Z contrapunctus: heh
2015-05-18T15:54:41Z wasamasa: first they snatched .lisp for files, then #lisp for IRC, what next
2015-05-18T15:54:49Z kephra: but, imho #lisp should be moved to ##lisp
2015-05-18T15:54:53Z Pixel_Outlaw: Hard when one branch of the Lisp family carries the name and the other doesn't.
2015-05-18T15:55:02Z contrapunctus: kephra: #commonlisp
2015-05-18T15:55:02Z kephra: because nobody in that channel owns lisp
2015-05-18T15:55:34Z kephra: same as #scheme, should be ##scheme, as we are talking about scheme, and there is no official scheme channel
2015-05-18T15:55:52Z contrapunctus: o.o
2015-05-18T15:56:17Z kephra: it would be different, e.g. if Xach founds an #quicklisp - then this would be an official channel
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2015-05-18T15:56:25Z kephra: and not an about channel
2015-05-18T15:56:45Z kephra: .... but freenode policies are nitpicking - and most people ignore this, when founding a channel
2015-05-18T15:58:36Z kephra: back to scheme related question - are there regression tests for the slib libraries somewhere?
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2015-05-18T17:53:04Z Pixel_Outlaw: If you have an infinite recursive function as a sort of main loop for a program it seems like symbols bound in let would never get collected right? They might be needed in the next frame.
2015-05-18T17:53:18Z Pixel_Outlaw: Or am I mistaken?
2015-05-18T17:54:51Z vraid: Pixel_Outlaw: if you bind them inside the loop, they will go out of scope in the next iteration
2015-05-18T17:56:50Z vraid: Pixel_Outlaw: http://pasterack.org/pastes/6807
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2015-05-18T17:57:20Z ijp: why would you be allocating symbols?
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2015-05-18T17:57:43Z ijp: your question presumes an implementation strategy
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2015-05-18T17:58:36Z vraid: ijp: i assume he meant identifiers
2015-05-18T17:58:41Z ijp: I know
2015-05-18T17:58:49Z Pixel_Outlaw: I thought people may just keep them in each new context created and shadow the old versions in case a calculation back to the original frame was needed.
2015-05-18T17:59:28Z vraid: Pixel_Outlaw: recursion never goes "back" to a previous step
2015-05-18T18:00:08Z Pixel_Outlaw: Well I was thinking it would be possible for non tail recursion.
2015-05-18T18:00:17Z Pixel_Outlaw: Guess I was not thinking deeply enough.
2015-05-18T18:00:46Z Pixel_Outlaw: (function values (call function) + values)
2015-05-18T18:01:30Z vraid: Pixel_Outlaw: http://pasterack.org/pastes/95318
2015-05-18T18:01:54Z vraid: Pixel_Outlaw: in the first version, each n will be preserved on the call heap before anything returns
2015-05-18T18:02:12Z vraid: but in the second, tail recursive function, that is avoided by passing any relevant variables on to the next step
2015-05-18T18:03:03Z Pixel_Outlaw: Yep, the first is the type I was concerned about.
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2015-05-18T18:03:29Z vraid: a main loop should be of the second type
2015-05-18T18:05:44Z ijp: if it wasn't, it wouldn't remain a main loop for very long
2015-05-18T18:06:54Z Pixel_Outlaw: Just wanted to make sure that I was looping safely since all the Scheme I've seen so far has had predictable termination.
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2015-05-18T18:13:02Z zacts: hi
2015-05-18T18:13:05Z zacts: yo Pixel_Outlaw
2015-05-18T18:13:25Z Pixel_Outlaw: 'lo
2015-05-18T18:13:48Z zacts: lo
2015-05-18T18:14:07Z zacts is eating a huge plate of huevos rancheros
2015-05-18T18:14:12Z zacts: with both red and green chile
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2015-05-18T18:18:09Z ASau: zacts: IMO, you need to change your attitude, if you want to be successful as programmer.
2015-05-18T18:18:16Z ASau shrugs.
2015-05-18T18:18:40Z zacts: ASau: what are you referring to, hopefully not my choice of breakfast?
2015-05-18T18:18:43Z zacts: o_O
2015-05-18T18:18:52Z zacts: are programmers not supposed to like eggs and chile?
2015-05-18T18:19:22Z ASau: I don't even know what hu[censored] is that...
2015-05-18T18:19:37Z zacts: huevos means eggs in spanish
2015-05-18T18:20:05Z zacts: huevos rancheros is a dish with tortillas / eggs / red and green chile / cheese / potatoes
2015-05-18T18:20:46Z ASau shrugs.
2015-05-18T18:20:52Z ASau: You're in Mexica, not me.
2015-05-18T18:20:58Z zacts: anyway, if you are referring to my conversation last night
2015-05-18T18:21:12Z zacts: I personally have no desire to have any form of success as a programmer
2015-05-18T18:21:26Z zacts: if I find success, then cool. icing on the cake
2015-05-18T18:21:42Z ijp: rudybot: personally I intend to become a world famous limbo dancer
2015-05-18T18:21:43Z rudybot: ijp: odd that i was just listening to 'tiny dancer' by elton john
2015-05-18T18:21:58Z zacts: \o/ elton john
2015-05-18T18:23:55Z hwpplayer1: "i program myself" everyday
2015-05-18T18:24:13Z ASau eats fish caught somewhere near Alaska and doesn't care of local customs.
2015-05-18T18:24:53Z zacts: there was this russian restaurant I loved in Seattle years ago
2015-05-18T18:25:14Z zacts: it was in pike's market I think
2015-05-18T18:25:42Z zacts: and lol, http://www.newspapers.com/newspage/63787849/
2015-05-18T18:25:46Z zacts: ^ this is effing hilarious
2015-05-18T18:25:56Z zacts: this city in california hosts an annual ugly dog contest
2015-05-18T18:26:04Z zacts: anyway, back on-topic
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2015-05-18T18:28:05Z Pixel_Outlaw: There are breeds that should not exist because they have intentional medical issues.
2015-05-18T18:28:19Z zacts: Pixel_Outlaw: indeed, I hate dog breeders
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2015-05-18T18:28:36Z zacts: it's nazi crap
2015-05-18T18:28:49Z zacts: I always get the ugliest / most muttlike dogs
2015-05-18T18:28:56Z zacts: my last dog we saved his life
2015-05-18T18:28:59Z zacts: his name is buddy
2015-05-18T18:29:16Z Pixel_Outlaw: I prefer wolf like dog breeds find hounds and toy breeds ugly.
2015-05-18T18:29:22Z zacts: the adoption shelter actually asked us: Are you really sure you want this dog?
2015-05-18T18:29:27Z zacts: they tried to talk us out of it
2015-05-18T18:29:37Z zacts: anyway, we saved his life, and now he has a really great home
2015-05-18T18:30:00Z zacts: he had many health problems when we got him: heart / overweight / etc...
2015-05-18T18:30:05Z zacts: the previous owner overfed him
2015-05-18T18:30:11Z zacts: now he is pretty healthy
2015-05-18T18:30:41Z zacts: Pixel_Outlaw: have you seen the film Best in Show?
2015-05-18T18:31:05Z zacts: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Best_in_Show_%28film%29
2015-05-18T18:31:11Z ASau shrugs.
2015-05-18T18:31:19Z ASau: AFAIK, after recent studies biologists tend to consider dogs and wolves the same.
2015-05-18T18:31:43Z Pixel_Outlaw: I just don't care for droopy ears and strange body shapes.
2015-05-18T18:31:49Z Pixel_Outlaw: And mashed faces.
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2015-05-18T18:32:10Z ASau: Or some minor variation like humans of Caucasian and Asian races.
2015-05-18T18:33:07Z zacts: I hate the etymology of the word 'race'
2015-05-18T18:33:07Z Pixel_Outlaw: Nah that is fine because people. :D
2015-05-18T18:33:16Z grublet: we all just different arrangements of carbon and water
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2015-05-18T18:34:14Z zacts: the english language sucks, I use the term 'nazi ignorant people' for 'racist people'... Until I can find a better term. I dislike racism so much I won't even use the word...
2015-05-18T18:34:52Z zacts: anyway, to the library
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2015-05-18T18:35:31Z Pixel_Outlaw presses B button
2015-05-18T18:35:36Z ASau: We have ironical joke about American style of inter-ethnic relations:
2015-05-18T18:35:44Z ASau: "I hate racism.
2015-05-18T18:35:46Z ASau: And niggers."
2015-05-18T18:36:07Z vraid: charming
2015-05-18T18:36:34Z ASau: Anyway. Time for some rest.
2015-05-18T18:36:49Z Pixel_Outlaw: My college library is where I first discovered Lisp.
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2015-05-18T18:37:28Z grublet: ASau: please don't lump me in with fucktards
2015-05-18T18:38:04Z Pixel_Outlaw: Bored with C++ I started thumbing through the books on the shelves until I came across A Gentle Approach to Symbolic Computation. It looked different so I checked it out, librarian confused that somebody wanted to actually check out a book in this day and age.
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2015-05-18T18:39:14Z ASau learned Lisp from a book after Finnish.
2015-05-18T18:39:36Z ASau: ...and I cannot even spell their names.
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2015-05-18T18:40:52Z grublet is learning lisp on the internet
2015-05-18T18:42:01Z Pixel_Outlaw: For some reason I prefer to read and type in code from a book. I feel that I'll miss things if I don't have a guided tour of something.
2015-05-18T18:42:19Z grublet: Pixel_Outlaw: I've been watching the 1986 mit lectures
2015-05-18T18:42:36Z grublet: i do prefer books for reading, though
2015-05-18T18:42:44Z ronh-: zacts what word do you use for racist black people
2015-05-18T18:43:21Z ASau: There was no Internet back then.
2015-05-18T18:43:26Z Pixel_Outlaw: Books can be great for when you know you'll be in the bathroom for a while. I've SICP'd on the can a few times.
2015-05-18T18:43:27Z Pixel_Outlaw: lol
2015-05-18T18:43:45Z grublet: lambda shitting
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2015-05-18T18:45:00Z Pixel_Outlaw: I've actually seen people put small magazine racks in their bathrooms.
2015-05-18T18:45:08Z Pixel_Outlaw: I found that tacky and hilarious.
2015-05-18T18:45:36Z mario-goulart: For the printed SICP you need a real desk in your bathroom.
2015-05-18T18:45:43Z grublet: it scares me to think someone is taking so long to shit that they need to read a book
2015-05-18T18:46:07Z grublet: they should eat the fiber instead of reading off it
2015-05-18T18:46:09Z Pixel_Outlaw: mario-goulart, possibly a midi player too for the introduction them
2015-05-18T18:46:27Z oleo: lol
2015-05-18T18:46:41Z mario-goulart: And a notebook for the exercises
2015-05-18T18:46:49Z Pixel_Outlaw: "I'll be back in a while, I've got my MP3 player for Jesu Joy of Man's Desiring and SICP in hand"
2015-05-18T18:47:00Z Pixel_Outlaw: *and a notebook for the exercises yes.
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2015-05-18T18:48:19Z grublet: when im on the toilet i pull my shirt up over my head like beavis
2015-05-18T18:48:29Z Pixel_Outlaw: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jeZaSeaHVeg
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2015-05-18T18:48:33Z Pixel_Outlaw: Now you can SICP
2015-05-18T18:49:01Z grublet: why is just intonation so based
2015-05-18T18:51:12Z hwpplayer1: thanks for Bach
2015-05-18T18:51:28Z grublet: my shitting is imperative
2015-05-18T18:52:53Z mario-goulart: Pixel_Outlaw: https://litreactor.com/sites/default/files/imagecache/header/images/news/201110/headers/informative-toilet.jpg
2015-05-18T18:52:53Z rudybot: http://eensy.teensy.info/YfRvq6O2gN
2015-05-18T18:53:11Z Pixel_Outlaw: OH MAN
2015-05-18T18:53:14Z Pixel_Outlaw: hahahaha
2015-05-18T18:53:59Z grublet: mario-goulart: it's like someone pilfered the magazine rack from a gas station
2015-05-18T18:54:05Z mario-goulart: :-)
2015-05-18T18:55:30Z Pixel_Outlaw: Maybe you just put a fuzzy seat cover on top of the lid and you can just stay and study when you're done!
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2015-05-18T19:09:01Z zacts: the whole concept of human race is ignorance
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2015-05-18T19:11:13Z grublet: zacts: why do you think that
2015-05-18T19:12:22Z zacts: "race within the human race"
2015-05-18T19:12:28Z zacts: that is stupid
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2015-05-18T19:13:30Z grublet: well human is a species, not a race
2015-05-18T19:13:31Z zacts: anyway, I'm bored of this conversation
2015-05-18T19:13:37Z vraid: zacts: that's kind of what race means though. not separate species
2015-05-18T19:13:40Z grublet: race is just a stratification of human
2015-05-18T19:13:57Z zacts: I don't care
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2015-05-18T19:14:16Z zacts: these etymologies are so lame
2015-05-18T19:14:39Z grublet: why are we having this discussion in an irc programming channel anyway
2015-05-18T19:14:45Z zacts: I don't know
2015-05-18T19:14:48Z zacts: it's boring
2015-05-18T19:15:03Z zacts: bottom line: racism is stupid and lame
2015-05-18T19:15:06Z zacts: -- next topic --
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2015-05-18T19:19:13Z Pixel_Outlaw: So...how bout them lambdas?
2015-05-18T19:19:39Z zacts: Pixel_Outlaw: λ
2015-05-18T19:19:46Z zacts: λ rocks!
2015-05-18T19:19:49Z vraid: (lambda () (bring-to-the-yard all-the-boys))
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2015-05-18T19:38:27Z grublet: did the antimass spectrometer in half-life run lisp?
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2015-05-18T20:43:23Z alexshendi: Does Edwin run on TTY, if it can't find a suitable X display? Thanks in advance.
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2015-05-18T20:53:01Z pjb: at least, in the sicp videos in the 80s, it seemed to work in a terminal.
2015-05-18T20:55:28Z pjb: alexshendi: the edwin provided by MIT/Scheme on MacOSX does.
2015-05-18T20:56:32Z Pixel_Outlaw: edwin is a bit strange it is kind of like emacs but some of the keybindings appear to be different
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2015-05-18T20:56:57Z alexshendi: pjb: Thanks, then something is wrong with my MIT-Scheme installation.
2015-05-18T20:57:36Z pjb: In Terminal.app: '/Applications/MIT:GNU Scheme.app/Contents/Resources/mit-scheme' RET (edwin) RET
2015-05-18T20:57:45Z pjb: In Terminal.app: unset DISPLAY ; '/Applications/MIT:GNU Scheme.app/Contents/Resources/mit-scheme' RET (edwin) RET
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2015-05-18T21:03:54Z Pixel_Outlaw: C-y has never yanked for me in edwin.
2015-05-18T21:04:04Z alexshendi: pjb: I get ";Can't find any usable display type" and then I'm in the debugger.
2015-05-18T21:04:05Z Pixel_Outlaw: Just yanks from my system clipboard in Ubuntu.
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2015-05-18T21:06:25Z contrapunctus: I was storing logs as s-exps, and have string fields in which newlines occur. Is it better to store newlines as "\n" s, or as actual newlines? I went the latter way and Paredit broke and refused to descend into the expressions, even though they are not malformed at all...
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2015-05-18T21:13:23Z turbofail: paredit depends on your syntax tables to determine what's a valid component of a string
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2015-05-18T21:15:38Z turbofail: thus in emacs-lisp mode, for example, paredit handles newlines within a string just fine
2015-05-18T21:16:14Z contrapunctus: turbofail: wow, yes it does indeed o_o
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2015-05-18T21:17:21Z contrapunctus: turbofail: Now that it seems I can have either - are there any reasons to go for one over the other?
2015-05-18T21:18:26Z turbofail: dunno.  if you'd like to combine line-by-line processing with s-expression syntax maybe?
2015-05-18T21:19:06Z turbofail: i.e. if you wanted to be able to say "each record is on one line" then using \n's may be useful
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2015-05-18T21:22:10Z contrapunctus: Hm...I can't think of any use for that in this case. Guess I'll keep to the \n s
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2015-05-18T21:25:37Z contrapunctus: s/\\n s/actual newlines/
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2015-05-18T23:54:15Z samw3: hello schemers.  so, i've been coding imperatively since the 80s and i'm finally going to give lisp-y languages a go.  i'm going to try scheme first since it seems the most straightforward.  i'm on a mac.  is mit-scheme a good place to start or is there a better environment?
2015-05-18T23:58:35Z jao: samw3, if you like emacs, guile + geiser is probably nicer.  and some people will swear by racket, environmentally speaking.
2015-05-18T23:58:55Z jao: not that there's anything wrong with mit-scheme, mind you.
2015-05-18T23:59:11Z samw3: i'll check it out
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2015-05-19T10:15:58Z kephra: http://kephra.de/o3proto/r4rs-o3.scm <- main progress today was to touch my own extensions with regression tests
2015-05-19T10:16:23Z kephra: paying back some technical dept
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2015-05-19T10:17:21Z kephra: also cleaned up file-io a lot for http, document and localStorage
2015-05-19T10:17:31Z kephra: *oh* well - localStorage is new ;-)
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2015-05-19T14:57:02Z JSharpe: Hello, I'm hopinh some one can help me setup workflow so I can quickly evaluate a file and print results on windows
2015-05-19T14:57:51Z kephra: JSharpe, s/quickly/slowly/ -> http://o3db.com/proto/repl.html
2015-05-19T14:59:48Z taylanub: JSharpe: AFAIK Racket has good support for MS Windows
2015-05-19T15:00:00Z kephra: JSharpe, you might also take a look at Racket - this comes with a nice IDE
2015-05-19T15:00:12Z taylanub: http://racket-lang.org/
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2015-05-19T15:00:22Z JSharpe: I can see that being useful, but my current workflow is having a file like "example.lsp" like http://pastebin.com/uNna4C4z then want to use -load "example.lsp"
2015-05-19T15:02:31Z taylanub: JSharpe: you mean in some command interpreter, like cmd.exe?
2015-05-19T15:02:51Z JSharpe: yeah
2015-05-19T15:03:20Z JSharpe: http://i.imgur.com/JmxgRDP.png
2015-05-19T15:03:33Z JSharpe: kind of like this, but notice how nothing is printed
2015-05-19T15:04:02Z taylanub: I'm not sure how well it would work in cmd.exe, but Racket (and most other Scheme implementations) will provide you a REPL which is basically a Scheme shell, where you could enter '(load "example.scm")' and it will do what you want
2015-05-19T15:05:21Z taylanub: you could also install GNU Emacs and use that as your Lisp IDE.  the Emacs extension Geiser can interact with Racket.
2015-05-19T15:05:49Z taylanub: and also with Guile, but not sure how convenient Guile is on MS Windows
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2015-05-19T15:07:52Z wasamasa: well, cygwin or msys should have it
2015-05-19T15:08:40Z taylanub: indeed, with Cygwin, more Unixy Scheme implementations should work, Guile included
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2015-05-19T15:46:11Z zacts: hi schemers
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2015-05-19T17:02:54Z vraid: zacts: hiya
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2015-05-19T17:28:07Z phale: is there a starts-with procedure or something like that? (for strings)
2015-05-19T17:28:48Z contrapunctus: phale: starts-with?
2015-05-19T17:29:05Z contrapunctus: (not sure I understand)
2015-05-19T17:29:29Z phale: contrapunctus: "Hello, world", (string-starts-with? "Hello") => #t
2015-05-19T17:29:57Z ijp: string-prefix? in srfi 13
2015-05-19T17:30:30Z phale: yeah
2015-05-19T17:30:32Z phale: thanks
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2015-05-20T00:28:29Z kephra: http://kephra.de/o3proto/dpaste.html#24ZDNGQ <- *w00t* I found a paste site that offers CORS!
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2015-05-20T03:45:53Z doesthiswork: I saw a funny footnote in a blog I read today "I'm sure this could be done in Scheme, using call-with-current-continuation. This is a consequence of a folk theorem that anything can be done with call/cc"
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2015-05-20T11:41:56Z kephra: http://kephra.de/o3proto/dpaste.html#0V39XYT <- simple dpaste example - pasting itself on eval
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2015-05-20T19:56:38Z Pixel_Outlaw: Tinkering with some C++ today and have a *great* appreciation for the way you can store unlike  functions in scheme for later recall in an arbitrary order.
2015-05-20T19:57:25Z Pixel_Outlaw: Stupid Lisp family, ruins the mind so you want to do things the easy way all the time and let the computer figure out how to store all the data.
2015-05-20T19:57:59Z Pixel_Outlaw: How dare I try to shove a bunch of functions with different parameter types into the same queue!
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2015-05-20T21:45:04Z taylanub: oh the joys of a "proper" type system!
2015-05-20T21:45:54Z daviid: type systems spoil the fun, always :)
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2015-05-21T12:56:22Z ghking: hello everyone I'm learning "The Scheme Programming Language (4)", which compiler should I need.
2015-05-21T12:57:00Z ghking: I found many procedure or keys can not used in DrRacket
2015-05-21T13:02:45Z vraid: ghking: racket supports several languages, you might have more luck with #lang r5rs
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2015-05-21T13:06:20Z mario-goulart: IIRC, 4th edition is r6rs.
2015-05-21T13:06:46Z ijp: yes, but iirc there are some chez extensions
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2015-05-21T14:17:30Z kephra: *hm* I wonder, if I should support brackets [ ] like forms?
2015-05-21T14:19:00Z pjb: No, useless.
2015-05-21T14:19:04Z taylanub kinda dislikes square brackets
2015-05-21T14:19:15Z mario-goulart too
2015-05-21T14:19:18Z pjb just hates them.
2015-05-21T14:19:37Z kephra: i also dislike them ... but reading up ... `I'm learning "The Scheme Programming Language` ... e.g. this book uses them
2015-05-21T14:20:17Z kephra: and a scheme that runs in browser and plays together with dpaste (and soon upaste) might be nice for those typical IRC questions
2015-05-21T14:20:41Z kephra: but the [] are a doorstopper currently
2015-05-21T14:20:46Z pjb: it's the html problem.
2015-05-21T14:20:56Z pjb: If you accept lousy language, you get lousy language.
2015-05-21T14:21:03Z kephra: ;-(
2015-05-21T14:21:07Z kephra: true, pjb
2015-05-21T14:21:51Z kephra: also, i'm thinking about that [ and { push new reader macros, for reading json syntax
2015-05-21T14:22:03Z kephra: wont this be nice
2015-05-21T14:22:13Z pjb: Yes. That would be acceptable.
2015-05-21T14:22:21Z wasamasa: kephra: if you're using json for hashtables
2015-05-21T14:22:24Z wasamasa: kephra: why not
2015-05-21T14:22:29Z pjb: eg. in my cl programs, I use [ for objective-c FFI.
2015-05-21T14:22:31Z kephra: (define foo { bar: ( "test" 'baz ) })
2015-05-21T14:22:58Z pjb: Just implement a good reader macro system.
2015-05-21T14:23:59Z kephra: pjb, this already exists (half)
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2015-05-21T14:25:21Z kephra: one idea would be that [ ] maps to normal r6rs syntax, but that I can (require 'json-reader) to load the funny reader for hash-table syntactic cancer
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2015-05-21T14:27:08Z kephra: but I would still prefer that
2015-05-21T14:27:21Z ijp: pfft, good reader macro system
2015-05-21T14:28:30Z kephra: (equals [ "foo", bar, 123 ] (list->vector '( "foo" bar 123 ))
2015-05-21T14:29:13Z kephra: imho, [] look like vectors, and {} looks like hashes
2015-05-21T14:31:21Z vraid: {} is used to denote sets in mathematics
2015-05-21T14:32:22Z taylanub: kephra: in Scheme, vectors are denoted via #( )
2015-05-21T14:33:05Z ijp: vraid: hashes are functions are sets
2015-05-21T14:33:26Z ijp: but then again, so is everything
2015-05-21T14:33:44Z vraid: is that sentence missing something?
2015-05-21T14:33:50Z taylanub: kephra: although if you support [] and {} purely for the intent of allowing `read' to parse JSON, and discourage use of literal JSON data in Scheme code, then that would be fine
2015-05-21T14:33:55Z ijp: vraid: nope
2015-05-21T14:34:20Z vraid: i can't really parse it
2015-05-21T14:34:47Z taylanub: in English one sometimes says "X is Y is Z" to mean "X, Y, and Z are the same thing"
2015-05-21T14:35:12Z vraid: oh, right
2015-05-21T14:35:29Z ijp: taylanub: in this case, set membership, not equality
2015-05-21T14:35:50Z ijp: well, the first one is equality
2015-05-21T14:35:52Z taylanub: in English, "the same thing" sometimes means "the same kind of thing" :P
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2015-05-21T14:40:13Z kephra: taylanub, sure #( ) is also mapped to vectors, but #( ) is space delimited, while json [ ] vectors are comma delimited
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2015-05-21T14:41:56Z kephra: and making that comma optional would create 'a lousy language' to return in cycles
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2015-05-21T14:44:07Z taylanub: never mind, I just thought for a moment you were proposing [] as an alternative/replacement syntax for vectors in Scheme code.
2015-05-21T14:44:39Z kephra: scheme vectors ~= javascript arrays
2015-05-21T14:45:48Z vraid: aren't javascript arrays key-indexed?
2015-05-21T14:46:08Z kephra: yes and no
2015-05-21T14:46:59Z kephra: arrays themself are integer indexed, but the prototype below Array is key based
2015-05-21T14:48:44Z kephra: so you need this ugly for (i in does) { if (does.hasOwnProperty(i)) { ... } } construct to check, that one really processes the array indexes and not the prototype hash
2015-05-21T14:50:52Z kephra: Lua is more consequent/cleaner in a similar prototyping approach, imho
2015-05-21T14:51:29Z kephra: here objects have an array and a hash part, and a prototype chain below
2015-05-21T14:54:51Z wasamasa: you could use #{} for sets
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2015-05-21T15:09:39Z kephra: wasamasa, sure, if sets are implemented
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2015-05-21T15:10:01Z wasamasa: just hashes with dummy keys
2015-05-21T15:10:21Z kephra: hashes with #t values
2015-05-21T15:10:34Z kephra: the keys of the hash are the values of the set
2015-05-21T15:10:43Z wasamasa: err, values
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2015-05-21T19:05:45Z diginet: this is probably a dumb question, but here goes: I've heard people say that for scheme to run efficiently on a VM, it needs to have support for tail call optimisation. however, why can't the scheme compiler for the VM just do tail call elimination instead of relying on the VM?
2015-05-21T19:07:15Z kephra: diginet, a scheme compiler could compile into trampoline code
2015-05-21T19:07:23Z ijp: diginet: you can, it's just slower
2015-05-21T19:08:21Z ijp: whenever you are compiling $foo to a vm, you would prefer to map constructs in $foo directly to vm instructions. e.g. function calls to a call instruction
2015-05-21T19:08:28Z diginet: ijp: I see. So transforming TCs into gotos executes slower than providing a native TC construct?
2015-05-21T19:09:12Z diginet: so it's mostly at the cost of requiring a more complicated compiler?
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2015-05-21T19:09:22Z ijp: diginet: do most vms give a generic goto?
2015-05-21T19:09:37Z diginet: ijp: I'm not sure, actually
2015-05-21T19:09:43Z ijp: you could certainly use it, but you would have extra costs for handling arguments
2015-05-21T19:10:16Z diginet: hmm, that's a good point
2015-05-21T19:10:43Z ijp: and you are paying them all the time, since tail calls are everywhere in scheme
2015-05-21T19:10:49Z diginet: yeah
2015-05-21T19:10:53Z diginet: that makes sense
2015-05-21T19:11:17Z diginet: I guess you'd have to go crazy and do something like Stalin Scheme to make it efficient
2015-05-21T19:11:23Z ijp: you could go the trampoline route, and use call instructions, but the bouncing has its own costs
2015-05-21T19:12:10Z diginet: I ask because I was thinking lately about the often proposed universal VM. But I feel like nearly every VM makes too many assumptions about the semantics of its host languages. The CLR is better than the JVM, but it still assumes things like GC.
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2015-05-21T19:47:33Z kephra: diginet, the Lua VM is better when it comes to GC as it has both light and heavy weight user space
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2015-05-21T21:31:16Z small-wolf: is there a way to check if a symbol is bound to a macro in the current environment?
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2015-05-21T21:34:54Z Riastradh: small-wolf: What are you really trying to accomplish?
2015-05-21T21:38:11Z small-wolf: I found an implementation of minikanren in scheme and I wanted to see how they implemented parts of it, but haven't bothered to read the source yet
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2015-05-21T23:30:30Z kephra: http://o3db.com/proto/dpaste.html#05B0BTH <- o3scm now works together with dpaste ... both read and write
2015-05-21T23:30:48Z kephra: as usual, look at the html source - this contains the interesting stuff
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2015-05-22T00:13:59Z JSharpe: Ok so I finally got a nice working environemtn going on to learn scheme and read SICP, and I wrote this little helper procedure to print data with an appended new line: http://pastebin.com/dCmnKfs4
2015-05-22T00:14:11Z JSharpe: is there a better way to do this?
2015-05-22T00:14:34Z JSharpe: I just want to append a new line upon displaying it
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2015-05-22T00:22:11Z JSharpe: also how come (display "\n") alone error, but not when it is called within the procedure
2015-05-22T00:24:21Z mikeyhc: JSharpe: which scheme implementation are you using?
2015-05-22T00:24:33Z JSharpe: mit-scheme
2015-05-22T00:24:47Z JSharpe: on windows
2015-05-22T00:25:31Z mikeyhc: I am using CHICKEN on linux and (display "\n") works fine, as it should
2015-05-22T00:25:36Z mikeyhc: might be an issue in mit
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2015-05-22T00:28:12Z JSharpe: hm, I can't reproduce it now
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2015-05-22T01:26:31Z JSharpe: I'm getting "The object -1 is not applicable" with this http://pastebin.com/XJyNxT35 procedure which I copied from here: https://youtu.be/dlbMuv-jix8?list=PLB63C06FAF154F047&t=1433
2015-05-22T01:29:51Z JSharpe: I also get the same with just (-1 + 5) alone
2015-05-22T01:30:19Z JSharpe: expecting the result to be 4
2015-05-22T01:33:39Z mikeyhc: JSharpe: scheme is prefix, need to use (+ -1 5)
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2015-05-22T01:36:54Z JSharpe: I feel this is going to make a big impact on reading SICP and following these videos
2015-05-22T01:37:33Z JSharpe: since he uses that syntax on the board
2015-05-22T01:38:34Z JSharpe: What would be the correct converted form that he shows?
2015-05-22T01:39:12Z JSharpe: I don't want to guess myself and build my foundation knowledge on what is wrong
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2015-05-22T01:43:23Z davexunit: JSharpe: it's just a simple "typo".
2015-05-22T01:44:44Z mikeyhc: JSharpe: it is simply to explain whats going on, all the examples in SICP use the prefix notation
2015-05-22T01:45:08Z mikeyhc: JSharpe: in the videos he has declared and operator 1+ which is the increment operator
2015-05-22T01:45:24Z mikeyhc: and -1+ which is the decrement operator
2015-05-22T01:45:44Z davexunit: a-ha.
2015-05-22T01:45:52Z davexunit: I thought he meant to write "1-"
2015-05-22T01:48:56Z JSharpe: ah ok, thank you. I rewrote it to be prefix and still a recurring procedure and it works now
2015-05-22T01:49:20Z mikeyhc: np
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2015-05-22T04:35:13Z zacts: huh http://vedantk.tumblr.com/post/8424437797/sicp-is-under-attack-updated
2015-05-22T04:35:16Z zacts: ^ interesting
2015-05-22T04:35:48Z zacts: and http://irreal.org/blog/?p=195
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2015-05-22T07:21:08Z tsumetai: SICP is used wrong. And something's off about its focus on math.
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2015-05-22T08:15:25Z ijp: tsumetai: computing is maths, but don't tell anyone
2015-05-22T08:16:12Z tsumetai: Math is computing. :)
2015-05-22T08:16:24Z ijp: except it isn't
2015-05-22T08:16:51Z tsumetai: Well, it's a subset.
2015-05-22T08:17:00Z tsumetai: But it's imagined not to be by ignoring the mathematician.
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2015-05-22T08:17:28Z ijp: tsumetai: how can e.g. the noncomputable reals be a part of computing?
2015-05-22T08:18:06Z ijp: but anyway, afaict, the reason sicp is so numerics heavy is so that they can go through all those procedural abstraction hoops without introducing any "complex" data
2015-05-22T08:18:55Z ijp: frankly, it's a mistake, as recursion comes so much more naturally with lists than with numbers
2015-05-22T08:19:12Z tsumetai: Hm.
2015-05-22T08:19:38Z tsumetai: ijp: re math: In what sense are they noncomputable?
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2015-05-22T08:21:37Z ijp: as in the real numbers are uncountable, but the reals that can be computed to any desired precision by a finite terminating algorithm are countable
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2015-05-22T08:23:27Z ijp: less "obscurely", look into any constructivist rant about the law of excluded middle
2015-05-22T08:24:40Z tsumetai: Well, I don't see why math can't be considered computing, since humans can do it. But I guess computing is more narrowly defined atm.
2015-05-22T08:25:37Z tsumetai: I believe one day that will change. :)
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2015-05-22T10:47:47Z kephra: moin
2015-05-22T10:48:11Z kephra: I guess being math heavy came from the traditional split between scientific computing and business computing
2015-05-22T10:49:11Z kephra: while business computing courses start with (sum (* amount price)) and next step to databases, because they had no floating point
2015-05-22T10:49:39Z kephra: scientific computing curses proceeded in math, as those computers had floating point but not much IO
2015-05-22T10:50:06Z kephra: and processing data in memory - god save - memory is to expensive to shuffle data
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2015-05-22T12:26:01Z pjb: I have no pity for math ludites.
2015-05-22T12:26:41Z pjb: Anyone who cannot cope with mathematics is not fully human. At best he is a tolerable subhuman who has learned to wear shoes.
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2015-05-22T12:29:01Z ecraven: tsumetai: just wait until we get Mentats!
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2015-05-22T13:32:47Z foof goes shopping
2015-05-22T13:35:01Z mario-goulart: What's too hard?
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2015-05-22T13:43:38Z oleo: staying hungry probably......
2015-05-22T13:43:39Z oleo: lol
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2015-05-22T14:13:18Z taylanub: wait, that actually made sense
2015-05-22T14:13:21Z taylanub: oleo: are you OK?
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2015-05-22T14:13:48Z oleo: eh ?
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2015-05-22T14:14:45Z taylanub: maybe I just don't get most of your jokes :P
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2015-05-22T14:15:22Z oleo: we are joke-incompatible taylan :')
2015-05-22T14:15:27Z oleo: *sniff*
2015-05-22T14:15:32Z oleo: lol
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2015-05-22T16:52:51Z xyh: does scheme support UNLOAD code ? I find it will be hard to support UNLOAD after one use hash table to implement the naming mechanism.
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2015-05-22T16:54:35Z xyh: by "scheme" I mean special features of any scheme implementations. (no need to be in the standard)
2015-05-22T16:54:50Z pjb: xyh: in general, lisp doesn't have a UNLOAD operator, but removing bindings will let the garbage collector do its job.
2015-05-22T16:55:18Z xyh: oh! I see.
2015-05-22T16:55:25Z pjb: xyh: a quickway to do it in CL, would be to delete a package.
2015-05-22T16:55:37Z pjb: Perhaps something similar on the scheme libraries would be possible?
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2015-05-22T17:06:49Z xyh: pjb: I am working on low-level code and forgot about the GC, the feature about UNLOAD really should be implemented by a GC, I give up this feature.
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2015-05-22T17:46:25Z kephra: pjb, my toy scheme implements defined?, define!, undefine and undefine!
2015-05-22T17:47:45Z kephra: defined? checks if something is define in the-environment, define! is like define but always uses the user-environment, undefine and undefine! remove definitions in the-environment and user-environment
2015-05-22T17:48:05Z kephra: ... wondering - how did other schemes extend this?
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2015-05-22T17:48:22Z kephra: imho defined? is important, to check if something is available
2015-05-22T17:48:31Z kephra: and the rest was cheap to implement
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2015-05-22T17:53:51Z pjb: kephra: it's named boundp in CL :-)
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2015-05-22T17:55:02Z kephra: well, in CL
2015-05-22T17:55:12Z kephra: but is there any SRFI for that topic?
2015-05-22T17:55:46Z contrapunctus: oh man I so want to check if a variable is bound >.>
2015-05-22T17:56:22Z kephra: contrapunctus, http://kephra.de/o3proto/r4rs-o3.scm <- take a look at the tail of this source
2015-05-22T17:57:00Z contrapunctus: It'd be great for what I'm writing, but generally-very-helpful #chicken said, [paraphrased] "If you want to check that, you're doing something really wrong."
2015-05-22T17:57:04Z taylanub: I'm always puzzled when people wish for that.  maybe it's because I don't write enough "real" code in Scheme.  (I never found myself wishing for something like that in Objective-C either, which I write as my job, but dunno if that carries over)
2015-05-22T17:57:52Z taylanub: contrapunctus: in general, feel free to read "really wrong" as "not conforming to our idioms" in such cases  ;-)
2015-05-22T17:57:53Z kephra: a defined? allows portable code
2015-05-22T17:58:02Z contrapunctus: taylanub: yeah, I guessed ;)
2015-05-22T17:58:12Z kephra: e.g. some r4rs do not provide string-copy
2015-05-22T17:58:34Z contrapunctus: I want to change program behaviour based on whether a user defined a variable in their init.scm file.
2015-05-22T17:58:45Z contrapunctus: (without mutation)
2015-05-22T17:58:51Z kephra: but perhaps I'm coming from browser chaos
2015-05-22T17:59:14Z taylanub: aha .. in an ideal world, we would just write our code conformant to some awesome R(n>7)RS and not need such hacks, but I guess portability might be a valid reason for something like 'defined?' in practice.
2015-05-22T17:59:49Z kephra: e.g. shitty google chrome (some people claim one of the best browsers *lol*) requires: if (!Math.trunc) { Math.trunc = function(x) { return x < 0 ? Math.ceil(x) : Math.floor(x); }}
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2015-05-22T18:00:40Z kephra: similar could be done if there would be a defined? in r4rs standard - to check if a version supports string-copy
2015-05-22T18:00:46Z taylanub: kephra: despite what I said above, I think most Scheme hackers actually just write code for a specific implementation these days, hence 'defined?' not being very common...
2015-05-22T18:01:05Z contrapunctus: time to propose a new SRFI? :)
2015-05-22T18:01:29Z kephra: 😃
2015-05-22T18:01:32Z ijp: propose whatever you want, you can't make anyone implement it
2015-05-22T18:01:33Z taylanub: time for something that reconciles R6 and 7RS :\
2015-05-22T18:01:49Z pjb: kephra: scheme is not bent too much onto run-time dynamicity.  It's specifications much rather stand for compilation-time stuff, and since symbols are almost second-class objects in scheme, undefining them would be quite meaningless (just as unloading).  You would just (setf! f #f) to kill a procedure f.
2015-05-22T18:01:52Z contrapunctus: taylanub: also, you mean in an ideal world where there is a big collection of implementation-agnostic libraries? ;)
2015-05-22T18:01:58Z ijp: taylanub: it wouldn't need to be recondiled if they didn't break it on purpose
2015-05-22T18:02:19Z taylanub: contrapunctus: yeah, that would be a natural result of a proper RnRS in which it's *possible* to write such libraries.
2015-05-22T18:02:44Z contrapunctus: :(
2015-05-22T18:02:58Z taylanub: contrapunctus: that being said, we recently got our first Real World (TM) Scheme library in pure R7RS + SRFIs :P  it's Real World because it's a PostgreSQL interface!!
2015-05-22T18:04:06Z contrapunctus looks at the final SRFIs list.
2015-05-22T18:04:09Z contrapunctus: taylanub: where? :\
2015-05-22T18:04:53Z contrapunctus: https://github.com/ktakashi/r7rs-postgresql ?
2015-05-22T18:04:53Z taylanub: ijp: I have been lessoned in the wrongdoings of R7RS and won't be defending them, but .. the only way to move is forward you know?  I wish R6RS-preferring folks would have pushed stronger for making R7RS less bone-headed in backwards compatibility, but they don't seem motivated
2015-05-22T18:05:22Z taylanub: contrapunctus: yup, by the author of the networking SRFI (120 or so IIRC)
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2015-05-22T18:06:24Z ijp: there was pushing until it was made quite clear that they weren't going to listen
2015-05-22T18:06:39Z taylanub: (106 it is, not 120)
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2015-05-22T18:07:05Z ijp: being incompatible was a design goal, not an accident
2015-05-22T18:07:21Z contrapunctus: ijp: wat
2015-05-22T18:08:43Z kephra: i think I stick to r4rs, srfi's and a few things I like at mit-scheme
2015-05-22T18:09:12Z ijp: can we call r7rs a failure yet? r6rs was called one by this point
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2015-05-22T18:09:20Z contrapunctus: kephra: why are you doing R4RS, though?
2015-05-22T18:09:31Z kephra: btw, srfi over slib - are there any slib regression tests?
2015-05-22T18:09:40Z kephra: contrapunctus, because r4rs provides a test suite
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2015-05-22T18:09:47Z contrapunctus: o.O
2015-05-22T18:10:06Z kephra: no test suite - no way to check if I'm conforming to a standard
2015-05-22T18:10:17Z ijp: [r6rs did]
2015-05-22T18:10:26Z kephra: so anything above r4rs is pure handwaving, imho
2015-05-22T18:10:30Z contrapunctus: ijp: why would someone have incompatibility as a /design goal/, as opposed to a 'necessary evil'?
2015-05-22T18:10:48Z taylanub: kephra: I wonder why R4RS and not R5RS?  the latter is more commonly implemented AFAIK?
2015-05-22T18:10:54Z contrapunctus: kephra: Wow, I didn't know that. Sad.
2015-05-22T18:11:10Z kephra: taylanub, is there any r5rs test suite?
2015-05-22T18:11:26Z taylanub: oh, never mind, I missed that line.  that's sad yeah.
2015-05-22T18:11:44Z kephra: http://o3db.com/proto/r4rs-full.html <- thats the reason for r4rs + own handwaving
2015-05-22T18:11:55Z kephra: I can not test anything above
2015-05-22T18:12:02Z kephra: as there as no tests for anything above
2015-05-22T18:12:35Z taylanub: there was some R5RS pitfalls test though IIRC, and it's most commonly implemented, so I'm not sure if it's fair to say that...
2015-05-22T18:13:04Z kephra: i implement parts of r5rs, e.g. eval
2015-05-22T18:13:15Z kephra: but I follow mit when it comes to environments
2015-05-22T18:13:39Z kephra: and extend it a bit
2015-05-22T18:14:01Z Riastradh: kephra: http://sisc-scheme.org/r5rs_pitfall.php
2015-05-22T18:15:07Z kephra: the-enviroment is the one inside a let or lambda and default for eval, user-enviroment is the default for load and repl, system-environment contains the primitives and special forms, while hidden-environment contains functions that are only used by special forms
2015-05-22T18:15:49Z kephra: thanks Riastradh !
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2015-05-22T18:16:18Z Riastradh: That's not how MIT Scheme environments work...
2015-05-22T18:16:37Z Riastradh: The concept of (the-environment) is completely insane.
2015-05-22T18:16:59Z kephra: why?
2015-05-22T18:17:03Z Riastradh: (There is a special form called that, for hysterical raisins, in MIT Scheme, but it works only at the top level, and is still moderately insane except for interactive purposes.)
2015-05-22T18:17:49Z Riastradh: Means your program's meaning changes if you change the name of a local variable.
2015-05-22T18:19:43Z kephra: *hm* my goal is: I also have an export-environment to export a subset of the-environment, and an import-environment to import such a subset, to implement the r6rs library syntax
2015-05-22T18:24:47Z Riastradh: I suggest that before you go on, you stop and make a clear distinction between compile-time and run-time.  Get rid of run-time environments altogether at first and make sure everything still works; then add them back as a distinct thing for debugging.
2015-05-22T18:27:07Z contrapunctus: taylanub: re: 'defined?', I was told to look into SRFI 39...but I can't make head or tail of what that does or how it's supposed to be used for this purpose.
2015-05-22T18:28:07Z taylanub: contrapunctus: I don't see any immediate connection between defined? and parameters; maybe the answer was at your particular use-case of defined? ?
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2015-05-22T18:29:12Z contrapunctus: taylanub: the use case is to check if a user has defined a particular variable in an init.scm file. Can SRFI 39 be used for it?
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2015-05-22T18:48:49Z ijp: no
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2015-05-22T20:07:38Z kephra: contrapunctus, the slib way would be provide and require
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2015-05-22T22:16:37Z zepard: hi
2015-05-22T22:16:52Z pjb: lo
2015-05-22T22:18:50Z zepard: 'was looking for some tips for noob startup but the topic looks promising
2015-05-22T22:20:53Z pjb: zepard: indeed, there's a lot of stuff on schemers.org.
2015-05-22T22:24:44Z contrapunctus: zepard: as a fellow learner, I found these useful too, for certain topics - http://www.ccs.neu.edu/home/dorai/ http://www.shido.info/lisp/idx_scm_e.html
2015-05-22T22:24:55Z contrapunctus: (they're old in some respects, though, mind.)
2015-05-22T22:26:20Z zepard: :)
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2015-05-22T22:27:07Z contrapunctus: zepard: set on an implementation yet?
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2015-05-22T22:30:03Z zepard: contrapunctus: have no clue yet, maybe chicken...
2015-05-22T22:31:49Z zepard: the more fun the better
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2015-05-22T22:33:16Z contrapunctus: zepard: cool, I'm using that, rather comprehensive libraries /and/ well-documented (I think - I don't have much experience worth speaking of with other languages...).
2015-05-22T22:36:48Z contrapunctus: zepard: Racket seems like it would be a nice choice if you're on Windows (and wish to avoid what looks to me like a painful installation process there), and I guess DrRacket would get you started quicker than a Chicken + Emacs/... combination.
2015-05-22T22:40:46Z contrapunctus: (painful - for Chicken + Emacs)
2015-05-22T22:41:19Z zepard: bsd/linux user here
2015-05-22T22:41:52Z contrapunctus: oh, nice :)
2015-05-22T22:42:49Z zepard: more of a vim guy but will see that later. theory first
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2015-05-22T22:43:19Z contrapunctus: sweet :) (ex-Vim and ex-Evil user...good stuff)
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2015-05-22T22:44:18Z zepard: but why not, I'll check out racket too, but later
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2015-05-25T02:04:04Z dmiles_afk: is there a active NL parseing librarty everyone likes?
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2015-05-25T03:52:31Z yati: Hi. I'm trying to do ex-1.22 in SICP which requires a `runtime' primitive. I do have one (on MIT Scheme), but it does not return the elapsed milliseconds. Rather, it is a slow changing floating point number, maybe the number of hours (days?) rounded off to two digits after the point. How to get a finer uptime in ms?
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2015-05-25T06:08:49Z echo-area: yati: http://www.gnu.org/software/mit-scheme/documentation/mit-scheme-ref/Machine-Time.html  <--  It looks like that MIT Scheme does have a function named `runtime'.
2015-05-25T06:08:49Z rudybot: http://teensy.info/7cRUiY9h3S
2015-05-25T06:09:20Z echo-area: But otherwise there are lots of functions can be used, as listed there
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2015-05-25T06:17:04Z yati: echo-area, Thanks, that link is useful :)
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2015-05-26T04:51:52Z DrDuck: I'm having trouble understanding exactly how to work out problem 3.31 of SICP. Could anyone lend some direction?
2015-05-26T04:53:56Z DrDuck: this circuit language is a little more complex than i initially thought :p
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2015-05-26T08:32:43Z kephra: SRFI 69 question
2015-05-26T08:33:02Z kephra: would you prefer hash-table-walk to return a list of the results of the walk - or throw them away?
2015-05-26T08:33:38Z kephra: the first would allow to implement hash-table->alist as a hash-table-walk - the first would use less stack space
2015-05-26T08:34:02Z kephra: *oups* the 2nd first, should of course be the 2nd ;-)
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2015-05-26T10:54:17Z BW^-: http://gambitscheme.org/wordpress/
2015-05-26T10:54:54Z BW^-: https://mercure.iro.umontreal.ca/pipermail/gambit-list/2015-May/007897.html
2015-05-26T10:54:54Z rudybot: http://teensy.info/ncDamPMM3m
2015-05-26T10:55:04Z BW^-: shop til you drop everyone - this is the best purpose!
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2015-05-26T20:50:45Z Fare: can anyone remind me what is the semantics of letrec wrt order of assignments and/or side-effects in definition clauses?
2015-05-26T20:51:17Z Riastradh: Order of evaluation of right-hand sides is unspecified.  Does that answer your question?
2015-05-26T20:51:18Z Fare: e.g. (letrec ((a (foo b)) (b (bar a))) (list a b)) ... what does the call to foo see? the call to bar?
2015-05-26T20:51:36Z Fare: yes, I suppose.
2015-05-26T20:51:40Z Riastradh: Unless FOO and BAR are macros, that is an error in both clauses.
2015-05-26T20:51:53Z Riastradh: Order of evaluation is not relevant -- it is an error no matter what order the expressions are evaluated in.
2015-05-26T20:52:01Z Fare: why an error?
2015-05-26T20:52:30Z vraid: Fare: letrec isn't for immediately evaluated values
2015-05-26T20:52:53Z Fare: what if I make it (letrec ((a (foo (lambda () b))) (b (bar (lambda () a)))) (list a b))
2015-05-26T20:53:16Z Fare: vraid: what prevents it?
2015-05-26T20:53:27Z Riastradh: Fare: Expansion is (let ((a <error>) (b <error>)) (let ((a (let ((v (foo b))) (lambda () (set! a v)))) (b (let ((v (bar a))) (lambda () (set! b v))))) (a) (b)) (list a b))
2015-05-26T20:53:35Z Fare: so is letrec guaranteed to bomb unless all left-hand-sides are lambda's ?
2015-05-26T20:53:38Z vraid: Fare: order of evaluation, as mentioned
2015-05-26T20:53:57Z Riastradh: ...or, if you like:  (let ((a <error>) (b <error>)) (let ((a0 (foo b)) (b0 (bar a))) (set! a a0) (set! b b0) (list a b)))
2015-05-26T20:54:22Z Riastradh: (The first expansion is readily translated into a working SYNTAX-RULES macro.)
2015-05-26T20:54:51Z Fare: in case foo or bar calls call/cc, is the binding pretty much guaranteed to happen through mutation? is looking the value for a guaranteed to bomb as opposed to yield #f or something?
2015-05-26T20:55:27Z Riastradh: 1. Yes.  2. Guaranteed to bomb, no; an error, yes.  (That is, it is a mistake that the implementation is not guaranteed to report.)
2015-05-26T20:56:26Z Fare: so with call/cc I was observe in which order the letrec evaluates things and assigns its variables.
2015-05-26T20:57:16Z Fare: that reminds me of an old usenet post where they were using call/cc and the assignment implicit in letrec to implement mutable cells in an otherwise pure subset of scheme.
2015-05-26T20:57:34Z Riastradh: LETREC always evaluates everything first, and then assigns variables.
2015-05-26T20:57:45Z Riastradh: In what order it evaluates things is unspecified.
2015-05-26T20:58:03Z Fare: Riastradh, thanks.
2015-05-26T20:58:04Z Riastradh: And yes, you can use LETREC + CWCC to make mutable cells.
2015-05-26T20:59:27Z Fare: wasn't there a proposal to sort the bindings in dependency order, so you'd evaluate then assign in batches, making earlier values visible to later evaluations?
2015-05-26T20:59:41Z Riastradh: Dunno.
2015-05-26T20:59:46Z Fare: or was that formally ditched at some point?
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2015-05-26T23:35:03Z mario-goulart: foof: are import specifiers (e.g., only, rename) reserved in chibi?  Can you have a library called `only'?
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2015-05-26T23:37:31Z evhan: mario-goulart: There aren't any reservations, I don't think.
2015-05-26T23:37:35Z evhan: There don't need to be.
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2015-05-27T00:56:52Z DrDuck: section 3.3.4 of sicp is a pain in the ass
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2015-05-27T01:05:12Z mario-goulart: evhan: cool.  How does (import (only foo bar)) know whether `only' is a specifier or part of a library?
2015-05-27T01:06:37Z evhan: mario-goulart: If `foo` were a list instead, it would be a library (or another import refinement).
2015-05-27T01:08:41Z mario-goulart: evhan: thanks.  I think have to read r7rs more carefully. :-)
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2015-05-27T02:11:28Z teurastaja: any way to make gauche produce meaningful debugging traces?
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2015-05-27T02:18:49Z teurastaja: ERROR: Compile Error: wrong number of arguments: #f requires 1, but got 0
2015-05-27T02:19:41Z teurastaja: and then just a define and let ((...
2015-05-27T02:19:49Z teurastaja: on line 65
2015-05-27T02:24:11Z teurastaja: how can #f require 1 but get 0??
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2015-05-27T02:48:39Z teurastaja: (do ((answer #f (get-answer))) ((answer)))
2015-05-27T02:51:16Z teurastaja: that last one is not part of the program
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2015-05-27T02:53:51Z teurastaja: that do is still running ;)
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2015-05-27T02:58:14Z vraid: (define compilation 'teurastettava)
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2015-05-27T03:17:52Z teurastaja: (define current-vibe '())
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2015-05-27T16:51:30Z kephra: *w00t* full call-cc working now!
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2015-05-27T16:52:51Z kephra: i'm so !PROUD!
2015-05-27T16:54:45Z kephra: the complete JS code for call-cc is only 16 lines including curly braces - so my interpreter design was not that premature, as it made the most difficult things at the end pretty easy
2015-05-27T16:55:56Z kephra: if someone likes to write some call-cc tests, that work with the r4rs test command, put them on dpaste ... and drop me a note
2015-05-27T16:56:31Z kephra: same with any other tests - dpaste is supported as a file server by o3scm ;-)
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2015-05-27T18:43:55Z jorrakay: I have a quasiquoted exp inside a define statement that is failing to find a global opcode
2015-05-27T18:44:03Z jorrakay: and I really don't understand why
2015-05-27T18:45:00Z taylanub: jorrakay: are you using implementation-specific terminology?  can you show a code snippet?
2015-05-27T18:45:22Z kephra: jorrakay, dpaste.com preferred ;-)
2015-05-27T18:45:41Z jorrakay: The op that it can't find is current-seconds. I'm using chibi-scheme, porting something from Racket.
2015-05-27T18:45:45Z jorrakay: Let me draw up an example.
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2015-05-27T18:46:19Z kephra: *ok* so you need to define current-second in some other way
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2015-05-27T18:46:48Z jorrakay: chibi-scheme has current-seconds in it's time module though. And I've imported that.
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2015-05-27T18:47:29Z jorrakay: Just doing (current-seconds) works. But doing something like `((somekey . ,(current-seconds)) ...) does not.
2015-05-27T18:49:52Z mario-goulart: jorrakay: works for me
2015-05-27T18:49:58Z edw: In Guile, how does one read the docstring of a procedure? I've added the docstring via `SCM_DEFINE` but I get the following error when I use `help` on the procedure: Did not find any object named `handler-make'
2015-05-27T18:50:16Z edw: (And yes, `handler-make` exists.)
2015-05-27T18:50:18Z mario-goulart: jorrakay:
2015-05-27T18:50:19Z mario-goulart: > `((somekey . ,(current-seconds)))
2015-05-27T18:50:19Z mario-goulart: ((somekey . 1432752581))
2015-05-27T18:51:12Z taylanub: edw: (procedure-documentation foo).  BTW there is a #guile channel.
2015-05-27T18:51:19Z scoofy: what's the diff between ` and ' quoting?
2015-05-27T18:51:30Z taylanub: scoofy: ' doesn't allow unquoting AKA ,
2015-05-27T18:51:36Z edw: taylanub: Thanks--and thanks1
2015-05-27T18:51:40Z edw: s/1/!/
2015-05-27T18:51:48Z taylanub: :)
2015-05-27T18:51:51Z scoofy: ah. got it. thanks
2015-05-27T18:56:20Z jorrakay: mario-goulart: I'm inside a define when I do this, not sure if that makes a difference?
2015-05-27T18:56:30Z jorrakay: mario-goulart: here is the file i'm trying to (include): http://hastebin.com/orexofunub.scm
2015-05-27T18:57:12Z jorrakay: Wait
2015-05-27T18:57:16Z jorrakay: I think i figured it out.
2015-05-27T18:58:27Z jorrakay: it doesn't work to import inside an included file i guess.
2015-05-27T18:59:59Z jorrakay: It works if I import the module before i include the file. Thanks anyway.
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2015-05-27T19:00:48Z mario-goulart: cool
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2015-05-28T08:56:57Z koz_: I'm a bit confused about Scheme's use of []. I heard somewhere (probably read, actually) that you can use [] instead of () for clarity in complex expressions. However, R5RS says they are 'reserved for possible future language extensions'.
2015-05-28T08:57:06Z koz_: So... which is it? Bracket variant or reserved?
2015-05-28T09:03:22Z vraid: koz_: in some implementations, e.g racket, you can use either () or [], as long as they match up to their corresponding type
2015-05-28T09:03:51Z koz_: But wouldn't that be a violation of the spec?
2015-05-28T09:03:57Z koz_: Since [] are reserved?
2015-05-28T09:04:02Z vraid: (let ([a 5]) being the same as (let [(a 5)
2015-05-28T09:04:13Z vraid: well, racket breaks the spec in other respects
2015-05-28T09:04:21Z vraid: i'm not sure about spec-faithful implementations
2015-05-28T09:04:48Z koz_: OK, thanks.
2015-05-28T09:05:08Z koz_: Guile seems to be OK with []s instead of ()s.
2015-05-28T09:05:46Z vraid: heading off for a bit
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2015-05-28T09:56:39Z kephra: koz_, [] came with r6rs - suggested use is ([ if the 2nd !OPENING! is a (
2015-05-28T09:56:50Z kephra: but thats pure syntactic cancer
2015-05-28T09:58:41Z kephra: koz_, e.g. in my toy scheme [] are defined r6rs like by default, but a (require 'json-syntax) will replace some reader macros for [], {}, : and , to read JSON as lists and hashes
2015-05-28T09:59:42Z kephra: vapor ware: require json-syntax does not yet exist, but the system is prepared for those kind of macros
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2015-05-28T10:02:20Z kephra: progress of last days: let, let*, letrec refactored, call-cc now works, load returns value of last form, environments are tested for load and eval
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2015-05-28T12:40:07Z Tirifto: Hello!
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2015-05-28T12:40:21Z vraid: hi
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2015-05-28T12:43:54Z Tirifto: I'm not sure if this is the right place to ask, but I'd like to learn Scheme with SICP. I've tried Common Lisp a while back, using EMACS with SLIME. I'd like to ask if anyone knows a similar EMACS mode for MIT/GNU Scheme, or if there's some other good tool that can be used for SICP learning.
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2015-05-28T12:45:34Z taylanub: maybe Racket with Geiser
2015-05-28T12:46:04Z wasamasa: or guile with geiser!
2015-05-28T12:46:19Z taylanub: SICP is written for much older versions of MIT/GNU Scheme I think.  OTOH Racket has a mode specifically for SICP from what I know.
2015-05-28T12:46:29Z wasamasa: chicken with geiser needs a bit more work :P
2015-05-28T12:47:36Z taylanub: wasamasa: you're digging into Chicken IIRC?  I suppose you wouldn't consider yourself a particularly strong GNU adherent?
2015-05-28T12:48:05Z wasamasa: taylanub: yeah, I was just hinting at the alternative
2015-05-28T12:48:29Z wasamasa: taylanub: as I've looked at geiser's code and had the impression the guile support is still the best (and the CHICKEN support the worst)
2015-05-28T12:48:40Z Tirifto: I see. I guess DrRacket then?
2015-05-28T12:48:57Z wasamasa: that would be another option
2015-05-28T12:48:59Z taylanub: DrRacket is what Racket's GUI is called AFAIK?
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2015-05-28T12:49:14Z wasamasa: yup
2015-05-28T12:49:16Z taylanub: i.e. you won't be using Emacs if you use DrRacket
2015-05-28T12:49:21Z Tirifto: Oh
2015-05-28T12:49:43Z wasamasa: it's good if you don't want to scare people away by showing them emacs :P
2015-05-28T12:50:11Z Tirifto: But I thought SICP wouldn't work for Racket or Guile? :o
2015-05-28T12:50:45Z wasamasa: it will work for pretty much any dialect save some exercises where you need a bit more support by your implementation
2015-05-28T12:51:02Z wasamasa: and racket happens to have language choice built-in
2015-05-28T12:51:20Z taylanub: wasamasa: I was just asking in general, about your GNU-adherence, as an Emacs user and all...
2015-05-28T12:51:34Z taylanub feels like a Jehova's Witnesses guy of GNU
2015-05-28T12:51:41Z wasamasa: taylanub: I think I'm more of a linus adherent
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2015-05-28T12:52:15Z taylanub: tsch
2015-05-28T12:52:23Z wasamasa: "Anybody who tells me I can't use a program because it's not open source, go suck on rms. I'm not interested. 99% of what I run tends to be open source, but that's my choice, dammit." - Linus Torvalds
2015-05-28T12:52:38Z Tirifto: taylanub: I might buy a bible from you! >.>
2015-05-28T12:52:58Z taylanub: Tirifto: here!  http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/
2015-05-28T12:53:10Z wasamasa: tl;dr: I like open source for the practical benefits of it
2015-05-28T12:53:41Z taylanub: wasamasa: that's a very long-winded and obnoxious way of saying "I disagree with the opinion that proprietary software is ethically unacceptable."
2015-05-28T12:53:54Z taylanub: the Torvalds quote that is
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2015-05-28T12:55:14Z wasamasa: sure
2015-05-28T12:56:03Z Tirifto: I like free software for the freedom of it, so I thought Guile might be a good language to learn. Being a part of GNU, I figured the community would think alike, probably.
2015-05-28T12:56:08Z wasamasa: anyhow, you shouldn't be surprised that taking an extremist position is less favourable these days
2015-05-28T12:56:45Z wasamasa: be it only finding free software acceptable or completely unacceptable
2015-05-28T12:58:01Z taylanub: *generally* unacceptable.  I don't think it's an extremist position any more than "shoplifting is generally unacceptable" is.
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2015-05-28T13:00:50Z wasamasa: sounds very comparable
2015-05-28T13:00:56Z Tirifto: <wasamasa> and racket happens to have language choice built-in: So is Racket more like a language or like an implementation (such as SBCL for Common Lisp), or is it both? :o
2015-05-28T13:01:17Z wasamasa: Tirifto: racketeers understand it more like a platform for implementing languages
2015-05-28T13:01:19Z vraid: Tirifto: racket is a family of languages built on the same platform
2015-05-28T13:01:25Z taylanub: Racket implements many languages, some of them standards-compliant Scheme, some Scheme dialects, some totally different.
2015-05-28T13:01:27Z wasamasa: Tirifto: which started out with scheme and now somehow transcends it
2015-05-28T13:01:39Z scoofy: just write your own scheme interpreter ;)
2015-05-28T13:01:42Z wasamasa: lol
2015-05-28T13:01:45Z scoofy: should be doable in 48 hours
2015-05-28T13:01:54Z wasamasa: if you're fluent in haskell perhaps
2015-05-28T13:02:15Z Tirifto: But Racket is also a language, right?
2015-05-28T13:02:29Z vraid: yes, the default language
2015-05-28T13:02:39Z wasamasa: that is the name of their variant of scheme
2015-05-28T13:02:58Z Tirifto: So it's a platform, a language, and a family of languages, too.
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2015-05-28T13:03:24Z wasamasa: I'm sure the people of #racket can explain it in a more convincing manner :P
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2015-05-28T13:04:02Z vraid: Tirifto: every racket module starts by stating which language it uses
2015-05-28T13:04:07Z scoofy: racket is a package that has some scheme-based DSLs or sub-languages
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2015-05-28T13:04:16Z Tirifto: Guile is just a language, though, right?
2015-05-28T13:04:19Z vraid: different modules in the same program can be written in different languages and interact
2015-05-28T13:04:35Z ijp: way to confuse the newbie guys
2015-05-28T13:04:37Z wasamasa: Tirifto: well...
2015-05-28T13:04:54Z taylanub: Guile is primarily an R5RS-compliant but vastly extended, partly R6RS-compliant implementation of Scheme, but also implements Emacs Lisp recently
2015-05-28T13:04:57Z wasamasa: Tirifto: they don't do terribly well in explaining what it can do and can be used for
2015-05-28T13:05:16Z kephra: Tirifto, the common lisp comparison is not that bad - racket is able to shape its language with something similar to reader macros from r5rs to even ALGOL ;-)
2015-05-28T13:05:33Z scoofy: when you're beginning to learn scheme, nearly all scheme systems are similar. so maybe it's not that important which you start with, or write your own
2015-05-28T13:06:10Z kephra: Tirifto, there is a SCIP compatible mode in racket - but you likely want racket+emacs instead of drracket
2015-05-28T13:06:12Z wasamasa: Tirifto: but it shouldn't matter at all as long as you can figure out how to write r5rs scheme in it
2015-05-28T13:06:14Z taylanub: Tirifto: I wouldn't say "Racket" is a family of languages BTW.  there is racket the language, and Racket the piece of software.  the latter implements the former, among some other languages, many of which are similar to the racket language (most being based on Scheme)
2015-05-28T13:07:13Z taylanub: so it's like  Racket (software) --implements--> [R5RS Scheme, R6RS Scheme, Racket Scheme, ALGOL 60, ...]
2015-05-28T13:07:29Z kephra: exactly, taylanub
2015-05-28T13:07:45Z Tirifto: Oh, okay
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2015-05-28T13:08:17Z kephra: the alternate (under Linux) might still be mit-scheme
2015-05-28T13:08:21Z kephra ducks for cover
2015-05-28T13:08:30Z ecraven: kephra: I agree :) it's still a very good system
2015-05-28T13:08:34Z ecraven: just a bit dated in parts
2015-05-28T13:08:44Z ijp: when someone wants to learn to drive, you don't need to explain all the different types of engine configuration
2015-05-28T13:08:46Z ecraven: and I haven't seen anything that works as well as emacs+SLIME+MIT/GNU Scheme
2015-05-28T13:09:30Z Tirifto: So R6RS Scheme, Racket Scheme and such are all 'variations' of Scheme language?
2015-05-28T13:09:37Z vraid: taylanub: well.. "“Racket” is more of an idea about programming languages than a language in the usual sense." http://docs.racket-lang.org/guide/more-hash-lang.html
2015-05-28T13:09:54Z ijp: Tirifto: basically
2015-05-28T13:10:11Z scoofy: Tirifto: all are based on the same basic idea.
2015-05-28T13:10:17Z scoofy: so yes, variations.
2015-05-28T13:10:24Z Tirifto: I see. Which one is SICP supposed to work with?
2015-05-28T13:10:49Z taylanub: vraid: there is a concrete "racket" language though
2015-05-28T13:11:01Z ijp: Tirifto: most of sicp will work on all of them
2015-05-28T13:11:10Z scoofy: since there are so many scheme variants, R5RS and R6RS are standardization efforts. so any scheme claiming to be "R5RS-complaiant", will offer the same R5RS features.
2015-05-28T13:11:46Z ijp: Tirifto: but in theory, mit scheme should have the best compatibility
2015-05-28T13:12:07Z taylanub: ijp: I think Racket has a mode (language?) specifically for SICP
2015-05-28T13:12:27Z scoofy: but as i said, almost doesn't matter which one you use, as for beginning scheme, almost are nearly equivalent. the main difference is the supported libraries and/or functions, extensions, sub-languages etc. the basis is the same
2015-05-28T13:12:32Z ijp: Tirifto: I would suggest you just pick one, and ask for help if and when a problem arises
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2015-05-28T13:13:01Z vraid: taylanub: it does http://www.neilvandyke.org/racket-sicp/
2015-05-28T13:13:14Z scoofy: so if you type the programs from the first SICP chapters, they'll likely run identical on most of scheme implementations
2015-05-28T13:13:49Z scoofy: (dunno if there might be some incompatibilities later on, possibly)
2015-05-28T13:14:05Z vraid: taylanub: there is, but it gets confusing as the name racket is used for several things as you say
2015-05-28T13:17:39Z wasamasa: https://github.com/klutometis/sicp-chicken/
2015-05-28T13:17:53Z Tirifto:  <ecraven> and I haven't seen anything that works as well as emacs+SLIME+MIT/GNU Scheme: Does that mean SLIME works with MIT/GNU Scheme?
2015-05-28T13:18:07Z wasamasa: the picture language is a non-standard thing that you'll need extra support for
2015-05-28T13:18:28Z wasamasa: Tirifto: people have written the swank part for other languages than CL, yes
2015-05-28T13:18:53Z wasamasa: Tirifto: but they tend to be incomplete, bitrotten (as slime's protocol keeps changing) or both
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2015-05-28T13:19:26Z foof: mario-goulart: nope, nothing reserved
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2015-05-28T13:27:49Z mario-goulart: foof: ok.  Thanks.
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2015-05-28T13:39:31Z Tirifto: I have very little prior experience in programming, I use GNU/Linux, I don't understand Lisp very well, but I'd like to probably learn Guile and I'd like to start with SICP, ideally without encountering a lot of incompatibility. Can someone think of a simple and clear advice on what I should install/do to get started?
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2015-05-28T13:47:33Z taylanub: Emacs, Guile, Geiser
2015-05-28T13:48:01Z Tirifto: Is Geiser something like SLIME?
2015-05-28T13:48:05Z wasamasa: yes
2015-05-28T13:50:35Z scoofy: Tirifto: [ apt-cache search scheme | grep '^lib' | more ] will give you some options
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2015-05-28T14:03:13Z mario-goulart: Tirifto: are you comfortable with emacs?
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2015-05-28T14:04:33Z Tirifto: mario-goulart: I don't have a lot of experience with it yet, but i'm hoping to gain it! :)
2015-05-28T14:05:08Z mario-goulart: Cool. :-)
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2015-05-28T14:20:23Z Tirifto: Couldn't connect to Geiser website, so I'm trying AUR~
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2015-05-28T14:21:18Z Tirifto: How do I use EMACS with Geiser and Guile?
2015-05-28T14:21:39Z scoofy: doesn't your package manager have geiser?
2015-05-28T14:23:23Z scoofy: Tirifto: https://github.com/jaor/geiser
2015-05-28T14:23:55Z Tirifto: I just installed it from Arch User Repository.
2015-05-28T14:24:20Z scoofy: link has a quick key reference
2015-05-28T14:24:26Z Tirifto: Thank you
2015-05-28T14:26:14Z Tirifto: Does EMACS use Geiser automatically from the start? I remember having to run SLIME with a command.
2015-05-28T14:26:42Z taylanub: some minimal setup is necessary IIRC
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2015-05-28T14:29:46Z taylanub: mine looks roughly like:  (load-library "geiser-install")  (setq geiser-active-implementations '(guile))  (setq geiser-guile-load-path (list (getenv "GUILE_LOAD_PATH")))  (add-hook 'geiser-repl-mode-hook 'paredit-mode) ;needs paredit.el
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2015-05-28T14:30:05Z taylanub: learning Paredit very strongly recommended for Lisp editing in general (regardless of CL, Scheme, Elisp, ...)
2015-05-28T14:30:57Z wasamasa: Tirifto: open a scheme file, then M-x run-geiser
2015-05-28T14:31:08Z wasamasa: Tirifto: could be that it is bound to C-c C-z already
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2015-05-28T14:31:20Z taylanub: I guess in the ideal case that Just Works
2015-05-28T14:31:31Z Tirifto: taylanub: Okay, I'll look into Paredit!
2015-05-28T14:31:46Z Tirifto: wasamasa: It can be an empty file, right?
2015-05-28T14:32:04Z wasamasa: Tirifto: as long as it ends in .scm
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2015-05-28T14:32:48Z Tirifto: wasamasa: Okay, thanks!
2015-05-28T14:33:45Z Tirifto: [No match]
2015-05-28T14:33:56Z Tirifto: I guess that means it won't be so simple? :P
2015-05-28T14:34:05Z wasamasa: oh, you've installed it from the AUR
2015-05-28T14:34:08Z wasamasa: well, that's why
2015-05-28T14:34:33Z wasamasa: it's generally recommended to use emacs' package manager and the repositories you favor
2015-05-28T14:34:40Z Tirifto: Oh.
2015-05-28T14:34:55Z Tirifto: I guess I'll look into EMACS package managers then
2015-05-28T14:35:24Z wasamasa: if you install it with your system's package manager, you'll have to do more footwork and will probably have less frequent updates going on
2015-05-28T14:35:48Z wasamasa: unless you're the-kenny and have hacked Nix into turning emacs packages into nix packages
2015-05-28T14:36:08Z wasamasa: then you could avoid using package.el successfully
2015-05-28T14:36:25Z Tirifto: I forgot that EMACS is an application suite for a moment.
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2015-05-28T14:36:50Z wasamasa: so, yes, package.el is included in every newer emacs installation
2015-05-28T14:37:08Z wasamasa: you'll just need to configure emacs to make use of more than GNU ELPA, the only official package archive
2015-05-28T14:38:13Z wasamasa: see http://emacs.stackexchange.com/a/10501/10 for an overview of your options and how they differ
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2015-05-28T14:45:08Z Tirifto: I guess I can't use shift in "M-:" in EMACS?
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2015-05-28T14:47:35Z wasamasa: you just need to hold M and type :, be it via shift or any other means
2015-05-28T14:47:50Z wasamasa: you can check what key emacs detects with F1 k
2015-05-28T14:52:15Z Tirifto: M seems to be the left Alt on my keyboard
2015-05-28T14:52:22Z Tirifto: At least it works like one for M-X
2015-05-28T14:52:53Z Tirifto: But nothing happens when I press the Alt (M) after F1 k, nor does it work with :
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2015-05-28T15:00:49Z taylanub: Emacs doesn't react to modkey-only key presses.  it only reacts when a normal key is (also) pressed.
2015-05-28T15:01:08Z taylanub: Tirifto: what keyboard layout do you use?  how do you normally type ":"?
2015-05-28T15:01:49Z taylanub: BTW feel free to drop into #emacs  (often off-topic, but on-topic questions take priority)
2015-05-28T15:03:52Z Tirifto: I use Colemak and I type ":" by pressing "Shift" and ";" (located where "p" is on a QWERTY keyboard)
2015-05-28T15:04:26Z taylanub: hah, another Colemak user
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2015-05-28T15:05:06Z Tirifto: taylanub: Are you one, too? :D
2015-05-28T15:05:06Z taylanub: well unless your keyboard is very very crappy, pressing left-Alt + Shift + 'p' should result in M-:.  maybe another application, like your desktop environment / window manager is stealing the keypress?
2015-05-28T15:05:11Z taylanub: yeah, Colemak here as well
2015-05-28T15:06:08Z Tirifto: Nice to meet another user of this excellent layout here~
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2015-05-28T15:06:15Z taylanub: hehe
2015-05-28T15:07:29Z taylanub: BTW s/right-Alt/left-Alt/ above, duh
2015-05-28T15:08:16Z taylanub: TBH I'm unsure whether Colemak helps with serious wrist issues like RSI, although it makes your fingers travel less and make less awkward combinations.  I even eliminated my left-Ctrl key usage entirely, putting Ctrl into right-Alt position so I can hit it with my right thumb, and merely hitting Shift and e.g. 'a' a lot with me left pinky still gives me pain when I type a lot
2015-05-28T15:09:20Z taylanub: (with me left pinky .. arrr)
2015-05-28T15:09:36Z Tirifto: I think the best solution for these problems would be an ergonomic keyboard.
2015-05-28T15:10:48Z Tirifto: I personally don't have much issues, I'm just hoping for better language support in Colemak, eventually.
2015-05-28T15:10:52Z taylanub: maybe.  I hear taking regular breaks from typing is a very good idea; there's software (an Emacs mode too) for telling you to stop typing for a while when you reach some threshold.
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2015-05-28T15:17:05Z Tirifto: Any alternative way to input modifier keys in EMACS?
2015-05-28T15:21:03Z taylanub: Tirifto: hitting ESC then some key is equivalent to holding M- and hitting that key
2015-05-28T15:22:10Z Tirifto: ESC and : shows "Eval:" at the... buffer, I think?
2015-05-28T15:22:24Z Tirifto: That one line at the bottom
2015-05-28T15:24:48Z taylanub: that'd be M-: yeah
2015-05-28T15:25:05Z taylanub: aka M-x eval-expression
2015-05-28T15:26:57Z Tirifto: I tried adding the Marmelade repo and then package-refresh-contents, but it throws a TLS error
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2015-05-28T15:29:13Z Tirifto: Actually wait
2015-05-28T15:29:39Z Tirifto: It says GNU TLS didn't terminate properly
2015-05-28T15:29:51Z Tirifto: But I'm not sure if it works or not.
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2015-05-28T15:34:52Z Tirifto: Probably not. I guess I'll just try tomorrow.
2015-05-28T15:46:16Z taylanub: I don't use package.el, but many people in #emacs do
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2015-05-28T18:49:31Z ecraven: Tirifto: yes, works well
2015-05-28T18:49:47Z ecraven: well, depends on what you do, but "normal" stuff seems to work fine
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2015-05-28T18:59:45Z Tirifto: ecraven: Sorry, what are you referring to now?
2015-05-28T19:00:50Z Tirifto: I'm not really sure what all things I asked about anymore
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2015-05-28T19:28:53Z jonas123: hi, how i can set an element in a list?
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2015-05-28T19:30:31Z taylanub: jonas123: you have to use set-car! on the right cell
2015-05-28T19:30:32Z taylanub: BRB
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2015-05-28T19:31:22Z jonas123: why can't i set the car of an empty list?
2015-05-28T19:31:31Z jonas123: (define x '())
2015-05-28T19:31:31Z jonas123: > (list-set! x 0
2015-05-28T19:31:31Z jonas123:              4)
2015-05-28T19:31:36Z jonas123: gives me error
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2015-05-28T19:31:48Z taylanub: back
2015-05-28T19:31:49Z jonas123: while i would expect (4)
2015-05-28T19:32:17Z jonas123: ah i'm stupid hehe
2015-05-28T19:34:00Z ijp: because the empty list doesn't have a car
2015-05-28T19:34:40Z taylanub: public transport is healthier anyway
2015-05-28T19:35:05Z taylanub: *tips hat*
2015-05-28T19:36:27Z ijp: jonas123: unlike in python, or whatever, lists aren't a single object. they are a polite fiction imposed on N+1 objects for a list of length N
2015-05-28T19:38:50Z jonas123: ye i was confused
2015-05-28T19:38:55Z Tirifto: Note: Geiser website is back up and I downloaded the package in the end.
2015-05-28T19:38:57Z jonas123: been over a year i did scheme hehe
2015-05-28T19:39:09Z jonas123: but now i'm eating a tuna sandwich omnomnom
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2015-05-28T20:39:52Z ecraven: Tirifto: MIT/GNU Scheme and SLIME :)
2015-05-28T20:42:35Z Tirifto: ecraven: Ah, I see. Thanks! I guess I'll just try Geiser/Guile, though, since it looks like I got that working :)
2015-05-28T20:43:35Z kephra: jorrakay, thats one of the scheme/lisp differences: (car nil) -> nil in Lisp, but (car '()) -> error in scheme
2015-05-28T20:44:16Z jorrakay: hu? Oh, you mean that jonas123 guy
2015-05-28T20:44:22Z jorrakay: He's gone now
2015-05-28T20:44:35Z ecraven: Tirifto: a good choice too
2015-05-28T20:44:48Z kephra: *oups* sorry jorrakay - tab expansion ;-(
2015-05-28T20:45:08Z jorrakay: Thats okay :)
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2015-05-29T11:56:02Z spaade: I asked in #lisp thinking it was a generic lisp channel.. so i might as well ask in here too. CL, scheme or clojure as my first lisp?
2015-05-29T11:56:43Z LeoNerd: Of those three, Scheme is by far the smallest and simplest, with the fewest "special cases"
2015-05-29T11:57:04Z LeoNerd: The idea behind Scheme is that a few small but well-designed features can be composed in a variety of ways to achieve great power
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2015-05-29T11:58:43Z pjb: spaade: the generic lisp channel is ##lisp
2015-05-29T11:59:24Z spaade: pjb I was told it was a CL-only channel
2015-05-29T11:59:41Z pjb: #lisp is CL only. ##lisp is generic.
2015-05-29T11:59:51Z spaade: oh
2015-05-29T12:00:49Z LeoNerd: It's a shame IRC doesn't allow #'lisp as a channel name
2015-05-29T12:01:07Z LeoNerd: Hrm..  #`lisp  might be allowable
2015-05-29T12:01:12Z pjb: Despite the simplicity of scheme (or perhaps because of it), I would still advocate Common Lisp.  The problem is that to make a usable scheme implementation, a lot of features have to be added, and they are not standardized. Therefore if you try to learn some scheme and come back a few months or years later, with another computer and another implementation, you will get lost.  When I came back a few years later to CL again, it was a
2015-05-29T12:01:12Z pjb: different implementation, but the language and its big library was the same, so I was able to take off, resuming learning.
2015-05-29T12:01:24Z scoofy: R5RS is a standard
2015-05-29T12:01:38Z pjb: r5rs is definitely worthwhile learning.
2015-05-29T12:02:03Z pjb: But to be able to write real programs, you will have to learn the extensions of a given implementation (and the SRFIs).
2015-05-29T12:02:32Z scoofy: scheme is simple and beautiful, and you may love that. common lisp is probably more suited to writing real-world programs.
2015-05-29T12:02:33Z pjb: Hopefully, the situation will soon be corrected with r7rs-{small,big}.
2015-05-29T12:02:43Z LeoNerd: r7 is looking fun
2015-05-29T12:24:32Z taylanub: AFAICT, the dominant Scheme implementations today are Racket, Chicken, and Guile.  (correct me if I'm wrong.)  of these, I think only the Chicken devs really like R7RS.  and R7RS-large doesn't seem to be going much anywhere.  so I'm unsure whether R7RS has made any difference...
2015-05-29T12:25:21Z wasamasa: taylanub: hmm, I thought the progress on r7rs for chicken has been comparable to guile
2015-05-29T12:25:52Z taylanub: well I *thought* that Chicken was strong on the anti-R6 pro-R7 front but I might be wrong
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2015-05-29T12:27:53Z wasamasa: oh, that
2015-05-29T12:28:06Z wasamasa: I thought it to be a popular opinion
2015-05-29T12:28:10Z taylanub: OTOH Guile has almost complete R7RS-small support in a branch whose continuation depends on R7RS's otherwise popularity, and Racket has a lot of personpower and existing framework in place and should be able to implement R7RS rather easily, and then there's a bunch of smaller Scheme implementations that push R7RS...
2015-05-29T12:30:14Z taylanub: I should slap myself on my cheeks like they do in Chinese cartoons and see if I can help Will Clinger with the R6RS stuff he recently posted on the WG2 ML.  I'd say R7RS still has considerable potential.
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2015-05-29T12:37:01Z boycottg00gle is using gauche
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2015-05-29T14:43:15Z teurastaja: im using gauche with the -r7 flag and (import (scheme write)) but display does not display
2015-05-29T14:44:11Z teurastaja: im using it like this: gosh -r7 test.scm
2015-05-29T14:44:47Z teurastaja: do i have to hook some output port?
2015-05-29T14:46:23Z teurastaja: nevermind
2015-05-29T14:46:28Z teurastaja: my bad
2015-05-29T14:47:41Z boycottg00gle: teurastaja: ?
2015-05-29T14:47:47Z boycottg00gle: teurastaja: can't reproduce here
2015-05-29T14:48:08Z teurastaja: sorry was a stupid mistake
2015-05-29T14:48:24Z teurastaja: forgot to feed display with a string...
2015-05-29T14:48:48Z boycottg00gle: :-)
2015-05-29T14:50:10Z teurastaja: but i do have a big program to debug. ive been debugging it all week and yesterday it compiled without mistakes but it never displays anything
2015-05-29T14:50:40Z teurastaja: but its probably too big for anyone herre to analyse
2015-05-29T14:52:14Z teurastaja: 133 lines of a complicated sudoku algorithm. supposed to be portable r7rs. anyone willing to help?
2015-05-29T14:53:06Z teurastaja: it doesnt make any compiling mistakes but also doesnt produce any output
2015-05-29T14:56:25Z teurastaja: http://pastebin.com/yY66dpmU
2015-05-29T14:57:14Z taylanub: teurastaja: FYI there are 3 different "BSD" licenses with non-negligible differences
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2015-05-29T14:57:29Z teurastaja: which should i use?
2015-05-29T14:59:50Z taylanub: for non-copyleft, the shortest/simplest license is the ISC license, which I know OpenBSD folks to be using nowadays: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ISC_license  the FSF recommends using the Apache license for non-copyleft, because it at least protects against patents while being non-copyleft.  further comments on licenses by pedants can be found at: http://www.gnu.org/licenses/license-list.en.html
2015-05-29T14:59:50Z teurastaja: dont forget to compile with R7RS enabled. input is from command-line arguments (you need 81 digits passed on the command-line, 0 being "empty"
2015-05-29T15:00:58Z taylanub: (hm, apparently that page actually lists a difficulty with the ISC license.  you might want to go for the Expat license instead, or the X11 license.)
2015-05-29T15:01:40Z scoofy: or just say '2-clause BSD', '3-clause BSD', etc...
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2015-05-29T15:02:53Z scoofy: here are the variants: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BSD_licenses
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2015-05-29T15:03:50Z scoofy: 2-clause is the same as 3-clause, minus the 'no-endorsement' clause
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2015-05-29T15:07:39Z teurastaja: use like this for an empty sudoku: gosh -r7 sudoku22.scm 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
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2015-05-29T15:10:27Z teurastaja: just to know if i should stay connected: is there anyone checking it right now?
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2015-05-29T15:26:02Z teurastaja: hello?
2015-05-29T15:27:30Z LeoNerd: I guess the answer then is "no" :/
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2015-05-29T15:30:15Z teurastaja: i cant find out why it doesnt display anything
2015-05-29T15:30:41Z teurastaja: im writing test programs but havent found out
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2015-05-29T15:32:46Z teurastaja: i guess im alone then...
2015-05-29T15:33:11Z taylanub: teurastaja: maybe Gauche has a tracer
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2015-05-29T15:35:32Z teurastaja: doesnt seem so
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2015-05-30T01:08:13Z koz_: Does a PDF version of TSPL 3rd edition even exist?
2015-05-30T01:08:17Z koz_: I've had no luck finding one.
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2015-05-30T13:11:28Z Tirifto: Hello!
2015-05-30T13:11:54Z scoofy: hello.
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2015-05-30T13:13:48Z Tirifto: Could someone please enlighten me about the wrongness of: (define (martians x) (define ludvil x)) ? I wrote that and I'm getting a syntax error, so I assume it's a beginner's mistake due to misunderstanding how Scheme works.
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2015-05-30T13:14:47Z taylanub: Tirifto: a <body> must have at least one <expression>.  the <body> of the procedure you define contains only a <definition>.
2015-05-30T13:15:23Z taylanub: (if you're keen on reading BNF, you can check the grammar at the end of R7RS or so)
2015-05-30T13:17:09Z taylanub: Tirifto: note also that (letrec* ((ludvil x))) is invalid syntax because there is no body.  this is the same as in your case, because indeed a body with a list of internal definitions is equivalent to a `letrec*'
2015-05-30T13:17:23Z taylanub: i.e. your code is equivalent to: (define (martians x) (letrec* ((ludvil x))))
2015-05-30T13:18:02Z taylanub: Tirifto: by the way what do you expect the procedure to do?  the definition there won't affect the environment outside the procedure, if you thought it will.
2015-05-30T13:18:11Z Tirifto: I've not read about letrec* yet. Is that like let* in Common Lisp?
2015-05-30T13:18:23Z taylanub: it's llike labels in common lisp IIRC
2015-05-30T13:20:02Z Tirifto: Oh I see. So basically the procedure can't return anything, because there's just the definition which defines ludvil inside of the procedure, so it's value can't be printed outside of it?
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2015-05-30T13:22:18Z taylanub: all correct until after the last comma, after which I don't know what you mean.  what I was meaning to say is, calling (martians foo) will not result in (define ludvil foo) in the position where you called (martians foo).  definitions are "declarative" so to say and don't follow the typical variable-substitution model of functions
2015-05-30T13:23:09Z taylanub: as in, "(define (foo x) (+ 2 x))  (foo 5)" is equivalent to "(+ 2 5)" but the same can't be done with an internal "(define ...)"
2015-05-30T13:23:30Z taylanub: it simply has a totally different meaning, which is to just declare variables that can be used within the body
2015-05-30T13:25:01Z Tirifto: When I type '(define jacob 5)', it doesn't return anything. Is that just hidden in my REPL, or does 'define' not return any value?
2015-05-30T13:25:24Z taylanub: it doesn't return any value.  grammatically, it's not an expression; only expressions return values.
2015-05-30T13:26:35Z taylanub: e.g. (+ 2 (define x y)) is a syntax error because (+ ...) is a function call which expects expressions as its operands (whose values will be the arguments to the function being called), but (define x y) is not an expression.
2015-05-30T13:27:17Z Tirifto: I see... so the (martians x) function does nothing really, because it defines 'ludvil' inside of it, but doesn't do anything else with it afterwards?
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2015-05-30T13:28:11Z Tirifto: Or does (martian x) not define 'ludvil' at all?
2015-05-30T13:29:10Z taylanub: well, when you speak of the martians function, you imply that it exists, but in fact its definition has been rejected so it hasn't been created.  but yeah, the reason it's rejected is that it contains no expressions.
2015-05-30T13:29:56Z taylanub: although one could change Scheme's semantics such that a <body> with zero expressions returns zero values (one can return zero values in Scheme), the language is just not defined that way.  not really sure if it has a good reason, but it's the way it is.
2015-05-30T13:30:08Z taylanub: some implementations might allow empty bodies, as an extension over the standard.
2015-05-30T13:31:03Z Tirifto: Would 'martians' work if it defined 'ludvil' in the global environment?
2015-05-30T13:31:11Z taylanub: in such an implementation, calling (martian x) would "theoretically" define ludvil, but it could only be reached inside the function's body, which doesn't use it, so it would be a useless definition and the function would do nothing anyway.
2015-05-30T13:31:30Z taylanub: a procedure can't modify the global environment.
2015-05-30T13:31:31Z scoofy: i just tried (define (martians x) (define ludvil x)) in tinyscheme. it accepts it.
2015-05-30T13:31:55Z scoofy: after that, (martians 42) ---> ludvil
2015-05-30T13:31:58Z taylanub: (BTW I'm kinda switching between "procedure" and "function".  don't mind me.  the data type in Scheme is called "procedure"...)
2015-05-30T13:32:37Z Tirifto: So you cannot make a procedure that defines a global variable in Scheme?
2015-05-30T13:32:42Z taylanub: scoofy: that's not very common among Scheme implementations AFAIK.  one should certainly not rely on it unless writing code specifically to be executed by TinyScheme
2015-05-30T13:33:26Z scoofy: tried it in chicken. that also accepts it, but defines martians a function that does/returns nothing.
2015-05-30T13:33:26Z taylanub: Tirifto: not in standard Scheme, although most implementations likely have a way to do it, sometimes by using procedures of the implementation's module system API for example
2015-05-30T13:33:38Z taylanub: scoofy: that's probably more common yeah
2015-05-30T13:34:15Z scoofy: guile throws syntax error
2015-05-30T13:34:15Z Tirifto: In Common Lisp that is possible, right?
2015-05-30T13:34:26Z Tirifto: And yes, guile is what I used~
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2015-05-30T13:35:05Z taylanub: I don't know CL very well but AFAIK its standard covers the "packages" system, and I'm guessing that it can do that, yeah.
2015-05-30T13:36:06Z taylanub: FWIW, R6RS and R7RS have library syntax, but neither provide a way to imperatively mess with the bindings in a library.
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2015-05-30T13:40:50Z Tirifto: Can you make a procedure that defines a variable?
2015-05-30T13:41:19Z Tirifto: Actually I guess I can find out myself
2015-05-30T13:41:21Z vraid: not one that's accessible outside of the procedure, no
2015-05-30T13:42:38Z Tirifto: Can you make a procedure that defines a procedure?
2015-05-30T13:42:47Z taylanub: procedures are bound to variables
2015-05-30T13:42:59Z taylanub: well, you can make a procedure that puts a procedure somewhere else than a variable
2015-05-30T13:43:14Z taylanub: say a hash table, which in turn is bound to a global variable.
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2015-05-30T13:45:42Z Tirifto: I suppose making procedures that define global variables is generally a bad practice that usually has better alternatives to reach the same result?
2015-05-30T13:46:58Z vraid: Tirifto: i guess a better thing to ask is: what do you want to achieve?
2015-05-30T13:47:03Z taylanub: one could say that, yes.  if it were possible it would probably also make static analysis of programs more difficult.
2015-05-30T13:47:27Z pjb: Tirifto: (define (martians x) (define ludvil x)) is like asking the age of the captain.  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Age_of_the_captain
2015-05-30T13:48:02Z taylanub: many of Scheme's design decisions are such that fairly advanced static analysis remains possible; Scheme is "dynamic" in the sense of dynamic typing, but it's otherwise a very "static" language, at least as far as the standards go.
2015-05-30T13:48:28Z pjb: Tirifto: in CL it is possible to define new global variables at run-time, (but often ill-advised), but scheme is less "dynamic" than CL, and it would make no sense to do such a thing.
2015-05-30T13:48:43Z pjb: On the other hand, you can write macros to define variables.
2015-05-30T13:49:29Z Tirifto: So macros in Scheme are not procedures?
2015-05-30T13:49:44Z pjb: No, they are not.
2015-05-30T13:50:09Z taylanub: well the "transformer" of a macro is usually a procedure that's called at compile-time (or "macro-expand-time" to be precise)
2015-05-30T13:51:41Z taylanub: that is a totally separate phase of execution, and doesn't have access to any of the program's input data; it only has access to the program's source code (and thus possibly (but not always truly) any data which the program generates fully through source code without processing any sort of input).
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2015-05-30T15:04:29Z Tirifto: I got to exercise 1.10 in SICP: http://wiki.drewhess.com/wiki/SICP_exercise_1.10
2015-05-30T15:04:58Z Tirifto: I'm just wondering if an experienced programmer would understand how that is supposed to work by looking at it.
2015-05-30T15:07:36Z Tirifto: I eventually did it step-by-step on paper, with numbers 1 and 3, so I got curious if you can predict the result or deduce how the function is going to work exactly just from the code, or if that's a thing for mathematicians/robots.
2015-05-30T15:20:58Z taylanub: Wikipedia gives a summary on the significance of the Ackermann function.  you can see there if you're interested in the concept, but I'd say it doesn't have a lot of relevance in programming.
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2015-05-30T15:21:22Z Riastradh: It figures into the analysis of the union-find algorithm!
2015-05-30T15:22:30Z vraid: Tirifto: it's obvious that it returns a power of 2, but it's harder to see what power
2015-05-30T15:24:40Z Tirifto: So I don't have to aspire towards understanding the function? :P
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2015-05-30T15:37:48Z vraid: Tirifto: it grows fast
2015-05-30T15:38:10Z vraid: hard to deduce on a glance
2015-05-30T15:38:21Z pjb: Tirifto: the exercise makes you exert the substitution evaluation principle, which can be applied in this case because there are no side effects.
2015-05-30T15:39:16Z pjb: The functions f g and h fix one parameter of the A function.  You can then substitute in the expression of A this parameter by the fixed value, and derive the resulting mathematical expression, which will be simplier than A.
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2015-05-30T15:40:00Z pjb: Tirifto: you can solve the problem using only mathematical formulations.
2015-05-30T15:42:02Z Tirifto: Okay, thanks!
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2015-05-30T18:53:39Z Tirifto: Is "The Scheme Programming Language" a good resource for beginners? I enjoyed "Common Lisp: A Gentle Introduction to Symbolic Computation" a lot, because it was very easy to understand. I've started reading SICP, but it feels like I'm missing some important knowledge.
2015-05-30T18:55:21Z fds: I would say it is.  It's flavour is very different from SICP, but that doesn't mean it's better or worse.
2015-05-30T18:55:33Z fds: If you like it, and you think you're learning something, then read it. :-)
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2015-05-30T19:00:21Z Tirifto: Okay, thank you! :)
2015-05-30T19:00:54Z fds: I also said "it's" when I meant "its".
2015-05-30T19:00:57Z fds hangs his head in shame.
2015-05-30T19:01:11Z fds: But I'm glad I could be marginally helpful anyway.
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2015-05-30T19:16:35Z pjb: Tirifto: You might be interested into: How to Design Programs -- An Introduction to Computing and Programming  http://www.htdp.org/2003-09-26/Book/
2015-05-30T19:17:05Z pjb: it's a much more comprehensive resource to learn scheme, than sicp which is more about the general concepts of programming.
2015-05-30T19:17:49Z pjb: Tirifto: see also http://www.schemers.org/ which has a lot of pointers.
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2015-05-30T19:22:46Z Tirifto:  pjb: Thank you, I'll look into them!
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2015-05-30T20:05:09Z BW^-: anyone knows which are the Unicode characters that have a "control" function like changing right-to-left printing order and otherwise mean something else than printing out a character?
2015-05-30T20:05:31Z BW^-: (perhaps if there's a character attribute character that can alter the display of the nextfollowing character, I would not include that in the consideration here)
2015-05-30T20:05:39Z BW^-: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unicode_control_characters shows some
2015-05-30T20:05:59Z BW^-: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bi-directional_text#Unicode_bidi_support shows something mroe
2015-05-30T20:06:28Z BW^-: this is indirectly related to Scheme through the question, which Unicode characters |write| should better escape -
2015-05-30T20:06:36Z BW^-: *none*, or >= 128, or something else.
2015-05-30T20:06:41Z BW^-: what's your insights and thoughts here?
2015-05-30T20:08:06Z kephra: BW^-, escaping >128 with \ will break utf8
2015-05-30T20:08:32Z BW^-: kephra: im talking now about during object serrialization
2015-05-30T20:08:41Z BW^-: kephra: I.e. |write|
2015-05-30T20:08:44Z BW^-: kephra: *not* |display|
2015-05-30T20:08:48Z BW^-: kephra: what do you mean?
2015-05-30T20:09:30Z kephra: if you want to escape utf8 you need to calculate the bytelength of each character, and escape characters not bytes
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2015-05-30T20:09:38Z kephra: else you will generate an invalid utf8
2015-05-30T20:09:54Z BW^-: kephra: that was included in what I just said already -
2015-05-30T20:10:04Z BW^-: kephra: at least Gambit stores characters internally as Unicode characters
2015-05-30T20:10:13Z BW^-: kephra: so serialization is done at the level of unicode character, not byte
2015-05-30T20:10:16Z kephra: so you need something like \x12AF34 encoding
2015-05-30T20:10:33Z BW^-: kephra: so, just to clarify: the escaping I suggest does not break UTF8 but keep it perfectly.
2015-05-30T20:11:44Z BW^-: kephra: do you have any more/other reflections here?
2015-05-30T20:12:22Z BW^-: kephra: if for instance there's no escaping of unicode characters in |write|:n output, you can't guarantee sequential console output,
2015-05-30T20:12:35Z BW^-: kephra: and what presentation in the console |write| will give becomes a really good question;
2015-05-30T20:14:03Z BW^-: kephra: as I see it, |write| is primarily about producing a serialized representation of an object that has correctness as first prio, and Unicode characters can cause a lot of trouble
2015-05-30T20:14:54Z BW^-: kephra: anyhow, that that is how it is as a general case is clear already; what I wanted to address here is a sub-problem which is, if you escape less, then *what* would be safe to escape
2015-05-30T20:15:09Z BW^-: perhaps this is as hard as the unicode uppercasing/lowercasing problem -
2015-05-30T20:15:46Z BW^-: and if so the mere complexity of the problem would bring additional justification merit to |write| by default escaping of all >=128 chars.
2015-05-30T20:17:29Z kephra: its enough to escape \ and ", I think
2015-05-30T20:17:53Z kephra: at least my toy scheme does not touch any other characters
2015-05-30T20:18:28Z BW^-: kephra: well, "toy" indicates it's not for serious use
2015-05-30T20:18:40Z BW^-: kephra: so for a "toy" usecase, escaping \ and " may be perfect
2015-05-30T20:18:42Z kephra: if you do not trust transport encoding, you might want to escape newline and return also
2015-05-30T20:19:06Z kephra: e.g. if files are moved between Unix, DOS and Mac
2015-05-30T20:19:11Z BW^-: kephra: Unicode can contain special characters like reversing the printing order from left to right to right to left
2015-05-30T20:19:17Z BW^-: kephra: those could f*** up a terminal completely
2015-05-30T20:19:21Z kephra: but thats not a problem in a stream
2015-05-30T20:19:27Z BW^-: kephra: the newline thing is a good point also yes
2015-05-30T20:20:16Z kephra: and escaping to improve readablity on screen is counter productive, imho
2015-05-30T20:20:33Z kephra: especially when it comes to umlauts
2015-05-30T20:21:06Z BW^-: kephra: right.
2015-05-30T20:21:16Z BW^-: you mean, *not* escaping, to improve readability
2015-05-30T20:25:36Z BW^-: kephra: right?
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2015-05-30T20:30:19Z kephra: escaping destroyes readability in 99.9999% - optimizing for the 0.000001% that some unicodes could be nasty is premature
2015-05-30T20:30:33Z kephra: and what, if you need them later?
2015-05-30T20:31:22Z kephra: imho, write itself should escape not more then necessary - the console driver might add more
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2015-05-30T20:43:30Z koz_: Are there any Scheme implementations that could give LuaJIT a run for its money speed-wise?
2015-05-30T20:43:58Z pjb: I'd bet most Scheme implementation produce code that'd run faster than LuaJIT code.
2015-05-30T20:44:17Z pjb: given that most (big, known) Scheme implementations produce native code.
2015-05-30T20:44:33Z koz_: pjb: Which Scheme implementations do you consider to be big and known?
2015-05-30T20:44:48Z pjb: On the other hand, you could probably write or port a scheme targetting LuaJIT so it'd run as fast.
2015-05-30T20:45:08Z pjb: bigloo, racket, mit-scheme, and some others.
2015-05-30T20:45:53Z koz_: pjb: I'm a relatively new Schemer (although I like Lisps) - which Scheme implementation of these has the nicest documentation?
2015-05-30T20:46:38Z pjb: I guess racket would be the most integrated one. The others are well documented, but on the web.  racket has a full fleshed IDE.
2015-05-30T20:46:58Z pjb: mit-scheme as edwin, I don't know if it has online documentation in edwin.  Probably.
2015-05-30T20:47:03Z pjb: s/as/has/
2015-05-30T20:47:55Z pjb: koz_: see also http://www.schemers.org/ for more information.
2015-05-30T20:48:10Z koz_: pjb: Thanks. There's a lot of Scheme implementations out there, and I have no idea which ones are good for me.
2015-05-30T20:48:47Z pjb: http://community.schemewiki.org/?scheme-faq-standards#implementations gives some tabulated information about implementations that should help you choose one.
2015-05-30T20:49:04Z koz_: Basically, what I would like is 1) Good optimizing compiler, 2) Good documentation (whether online or not) 3) Good C FFI
2015-05-30T20:49:23Z pjb: As a beginner, DrRacket is a good choice.  If you prefer CLI or emacs, mit-scheme or bigloo could be better.
2015-05-30T20:50:01Z koz_: I prefer Emacs. Definitely.
2015-05-30T20:50:25Z pjb: Currently, I'm using bigloo by default.
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2015-05-30T20:50:36Z koz_: I'm not new to programming - just to Scheme. I cut my Lisp teeth on Common Lisp.
2015-05-30T20:51:17Z koz_: pjb: Thanks for all your help - you've been the most helpful person on this topic I've encountered so far.
2015-05-30T20:51:18Z BW^-: "kephra: escaping destroyes readability in 99.9999% - optimizing for the 0.000001% that some unicodes could be nasty is premature"
2015-05-30T20:51:26Z BW^-: kephra: "kephra: and what, if you need them later?", what do you mean byt his?
2015-05-30T20:51:31Z pjb: koz_: you're welcome.
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2015-05-30T20:52:10Z BW^-: kephra: "imho, write itself should escape not more then necessary - the console driver might add more" - what i'm discussing here is a case when the write outputs to terminal(console) and the terminal driver doesn't add some more
2015-05-30T20:52:15Z koz_: So basically, I'm comparing Bigloo to MIT-Scheme.
2015-05-30T20:52:15Z BW^-: kephra: as in, it's one piee
2015-05-30T20:52:18Z BW^-: piece
2015-05-30T20:52:53Z BW^-: kephra: so i want to discuss the composite usecase
2015-05-30T20:53:02Z koz_: It seems Bigloo is good - MIT-Scheme is interpreted.
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2015-05-30T20:56:08Z kephra: BW^-, with composites you mean something like maN+Dala, where N+D form a non standard stack in Tibetan, because its a foreign word
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2015-05-30T21:12:00Z BW^-: kephra: no, I mean how \u1234 should be serialized by |write| when the output is the console/terminal.
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2015-05-31T00:51:36Z koz_: For Bigloo's typed identifiers, is there a list anywhere of all the valid types they can take?
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2015-05-31T09:25:35Z Tirifto: 'define' binds variables in the scope it's already in, and 'let' binds variables in it's own scope, right?
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2015-05-31T09:44:36Z kephra: Tirifto, let creates a new scope
2015-05-31T09:44:54Z kephra: all 4 let forms
2015-05-31T09:45:12Z kephra: begin does !NOT! create a new scope
2015-05-31T09:45:55Z kephra: lambda creates a new scope, lisp like macros do, and scheme hygenic macros are special
2015-05-31T09:47:36Z kephra: define defines in current scope, set! sets a value in the top most possible scope
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2015-05-31T09:55:01Z pjdelport: It's probably more accurate to say that set! sets the value of the lexically innermost binding with that name.
2015-05-31T10:00:00Z kephra: innermost is the better word
2015-05-31T10:01:15Z kephra: thinking in terms of an environment stack (topmost) is caused by my implementation
2015-05-31T10:02:26Z kephra: a compiler creates a new lexical scope to bind values - my interpreter just pushes and pops environements
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2015-05-31T12:37:17Z Tirifto: I had to leave, so I'll be repeating this, but 'define' binds variables in the scope it's already in, and 'let' binds variables in it's own scope it creates in it's body, right?
2015-05-31T12:37:59Z taylanub: Tirifto: top-level 'define' and internal 'define' have different semantics.  top-level mutates the global environment; internal is equivalent to using letrec*
2015-05-31T12:38:45Z taylanub: (lambda () (define foo bar) (define qux fux) (do-something))  is just syntax sugar for:
2015-05-31T12:38:45Z taylanub: (lambda () (letrec* ((foo bar) (qux fux)) (do-something)))
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2015-05-31T12:39:36Z taylanub: guess I should have mentioned earlier that top-level and internal 'define' are basically two different things.  gotta hone my pedagogic skillz :P
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2015-05-31T12:39:45Z Tirifto: Oh, okay. So I guess I should just use 'let' for internal environment until I learn more about letrec*?
2015-05-31T12:40:24Z taylanub: letrec* is pretty simple/intuitive, and indeed a list of internal (define ...) forms make it even more intuitive
2015-05-31T12:40:34Z taylanub: basically it means that said definitions can refer to each other; example:
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2015-05-31T12:41:25Z taylanub: (lambda () (define (foo) (+ 2 (bar))) (define (bar) (* 2 x)) (foo))  ;foo calls bar even though bar seems to be defined after foo
2015-05-31T12:41:38Z taylanub: however...
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2015-05-31T12:42:36Z taylanub: (lambda () (define foo (+ 2 bar)) (define bar (* 2 x)) foo)  ;error, because foo's definition tries to reference bar right away, when bar's value has not been determined yet
2015-05-31T12:43:53Z taylanub: to be precise, it tries to *de*reference bar before it's defined, instead of just referencing it for to be *de*referenced in the future (like a function's body can reference a variable, which is then *de*referenced when the function is called, as in my first example)
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2015-05-31T12:44:38Z taylanub: but the other way around is fine:
2015-05-31T12:45:22Z taylanub: (lambda () (define foo (* 2 x)) (define bar (+ 2 foo)) bar)  ;will return (+ 2 (* 2 x)), whatever x's value is
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2015-05-31T12:48:32Z Tirifto: I'm not really getting it now, but I'll read it again once I progress in my studies!
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2015-05-31T12:53:43Z taylanub: I'm probably making things more complicated than they are by using fancy words
2015-05-31T12:55:55Z taylanub: Tirifto: in my first example I define foo to be a function that will call (bar) when it's called; this works because by the time I call (foo), bar's value is determined.  in the second example I try to bind foo to the value resulting from (+ 2 bar), but bar's value hasn't been calculated yet so that can't work.
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2015-05-31T12:56:59Z taylanub: however, this should not be confused with the following:
2015-05-31T12:59:06Z taylanub: (lambda () (let* ((foo (+ 2 bar)) (bar (* 2 x))) foo))  ;here, (+ 2 bar) actually tries to use a 'bar' variable from the *outer* scope, whether one exists or not (will error only if it doesn't exist).  only after that is a new 'bar' variable bound.
2015-05-31T12:59:54Z taylanub: example:
2015-05-31T12:59:54Z taylanub: (let ((bar 2)) (let* ((foo (+ 2 bar)) (bar (* 2 x))) foo))  ;always results in 4, because the (+ 2 bar) there uses the outer bar.
2015-05-31T13:03:27Z duud: taylanub: This let stuff gets pretty clear if you use it equivalent lambda notation
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2015-05-31T13:05:43Z duud: taylanub:  what r7rs implementation would you recommend?
2015-05-31T13:06:24Z Tirifto: Does (foo) and (bar) being in parentheses make them procedures?
2015-05-31T13:09:40Z pjb: It makes the evaluator expect the variable foo and bar to be bound to procedures indeed.
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2015-05-31T13:10:07Z pjb: If (foo) is to be evaluated.
2015-05-31T13:10:40Z taylanub: Tirifto: (define (foo) x) = (define foo (lambda () x))
2015-05-31T13:11:14Z pjb: Here, (foo) is not to be evaluated. So the meaning is different, depending here on define.
2015-05-31T13:12:06Z taylanub: duud: I don't know .. maybe Guile or Chicken when their support is complete, or Racket if they support it.  Chibi is pretty cool but seems to suffer from lack of users/testing.  other implementations I know very little about.
2015-05-31T13:12:59Z Tirifto: So if I were to use 'define' to bind 'foo' to '(+ 2 x)', the evaluator would try to evaluate 'x', but if I use 'define' to bind '(foo)' to '(+ 2 x)', the evaluator passes it without evaluating it?
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2015-05-31T13:13:45Z taylanub: Tirifto: it just notes *which* x that is, but doesn't try to fetch its value.  its value will be fetched whenever (foo) is called
2015-05-31T13:15:06Z duud: taylanub: I'm looking for an accurate implementation for testing/porting purposes - speed etc. doesn't matter
2015-05-31T13:15:07Z Tirifto: By *which* x you mean that it checks which environment is the x in?
2015-05-31T13:15:10Z taylanub: (define x "blah")  (define (foo) (+ 2 x))  (foo) ;error! "blah" is not a number!  (set! x 2)  (foo) ;returns 4
2015-05-31T13:15:41Z taylanub: even though I didn't change (foo), it once errored and once succeeded, because I changed the value of the 'x' it referenced when it was defined.
2015-05-31T13:16:37Z taylanub: duud: I used Chibi to test my R7RS SRFI implementations, and it was mostly OK.  the author (Alex Shinn, 'foof' in this channel) is also very responsive to bug reports.
2015-05-31T13:17:07Z duud: taylanub: thx
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2015-05-31T13:18:30Z taylanub: (define x "blah")  (define (foo) (let ((x 2)) (+ 2 x)))  (foo) ;returns 4  (set! x 3)  (foo) ;still returns 4, because it uses its own 'x', not the global one.
2015-05-31T13:20:51Z Tirifto: I think I've reached some level of understanding, thank you :P
2015-05-31T13:21:23Z pjb: (define x "blah")  (define foo (let ((x x)) (lambda () (+ 2 x))))  (foo) always errors.
2015-05-31T13:21:44Z pjb: (define x "blah") (set! x 2) (define foo (let ((x x)) (lambda () (+ 2 x))))  (foo) always returns 4
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2015-05-31T13:26:54Z teurastaja: someone who knows dancing links around?
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2015-05-31T13:28:51Z teurastaja: ok whos around?
2015-05-31T13:29:30Z Tirifto: I am present.
2015-05-31T13:29:41Z Tirifto: I have no idea what dancing links are, though.
2015-05-31T13:30:02Z teurastaja: algorithm X?
2015-05-31T13:30:10Z teurastaja: exact cover problem?
2015-05-31T13:30:43Z teurastaja: doubly-linked circular lists?
2015-05-31T13:31:25Z pjb: I know dlcl.
2015-05-31T13:31:32Z teurastaja: yay
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2015-05-31T13:31:59Z teurastaja: im having problems constructing my matrix
2015-05-31T13:32:19Z pjb: And the relationship between matrices and dll?
2015-05-31T13:33:05Z teurastaja: im using records to implement a matrix of doubly-linked circular lists
2015-05-31T13:33:22Z teurastaja: you could call it quad-linked
2015-05-31T13:33:43Z teurastaja: left/right and up/down links
2015-05-31T13:34:10Z teurastaja: im having problems linking rows
2015-05-31T13:34:54Z teurastaja: (define-record-type <node>
2015-05-31T13:34:56Z teurastaja:   (node h l u i j k r d s) #f
2015-05-31T13:34:57Z teurastaja:   (h header set-header!) (l left set-left!)
2015-05-31T13:34:59Z teurastaja:   (u up set-up!) (i ival) (j jval) (k kval)
2015-05-31T13:35:00Z teurastaja:   (r right set-right!) (d down set-down!)
2015-05-31T13:35:02Z teurastaja:   (s size set-size!))
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2015-05-31T13:35:45Z pjb: 1- write tests. 2- be careful when writing the code.  take your time, stay calm, undistracted and uninterrupted.
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2015-05-31T13:36:38Z pjb: in your tests, include an exhaustive validation function that will check all your links.
2015-05-31T13:36:47Z teurastaja: (define root-node (node #f #f #f #f #f #f #f #f #f)) (set-left! root-node root-node) (set-right! root-node root-node)
2015-05-31T13:37:04Z teurastaja: thats what im doing
2015-05-31T13:37:18Z pjb: These tests are not so simple to write, because you want good report of the problem, and when there are wrong links, there may be misleading walks, or dead ends that must be checked too.
2015-05-31T13:37:42Z pjb: what about up and down?
2015-05-31T13:38:29Z pjb: You should define a constructor function for your nodes to do all the needed initializations in addition to the record creation.
2015-05-31T13:38:50Z teurastaja: i have this root node and i:
2015-05-31T13:38:58Z pjb: (define root-node (make-node))  (valid-node? root-node) -> #t
2015-05-31T13:40:10Z teurastaja: (define (make-headers)
2015-05-31T13:40:11Z teurastaja:   (let ([g (node #f #f #f #f #f #f #f #f 0)])
2015-05-31T13:40:12Z teurastaja:     (set-header! g g)
2015-05-31T13:40:14Z teurastaja:     (set-left! g g) (set-right! g g)
2015-05-31T13:40:15Z teurastaja:     (do ([i 0 (+ i 1)]) ((> i 3))
2015-05-31T13:40:17Z teurastaja:       (do ([j 0 (+ j 1)]) ((> j 8))
2015-05-31T13:40:18Z teurastaja:         (do ([k 0 (+ k 1)]) ((> k 8))
2015-05-31T13:40:20Z teurastaja:           (let ([h (node #f (left g) #f i j k
2015-05-31T13:40:21Z teurastaja:                         g #f 0)]) (set-header! h h)
2015-05-31T13:40:23Z teurastaja:             (set-up! h h) (set-down! h h)
2015-05-31T13:40:25Z teurastaja:             (horizontal-restore! h)))))))
2015-05-31T13:40:37Z teurastaja: this works
2015-05-31T13:40:55Z teurastaja: this is the first row
2015-05-31T13:41:03Z teurastaja: the headers
2015-05-31T13:41:32Z teurastaja: but i have troubles linking the other rows to my matrix
2015-05-31T13:42:02Z teurastaja: this does not work:
2015-05-31T13:42:05Z teurastaja: (define (make-grid)
2015-05-31T13:42:07Z teurastaja:   (let ([grid (make-headers)])
2015-05-31T13:42:08Z teurastaja:     (do ([x (down input) (down x)]) ((eq? x input))
2015-05-31T13:42:10Z teurastaja:       (let ([r (ival x)] [c (jval x)] [v (kval x)])
2015-05-31T13:42:11Z teurastaja:         (do ([h (right grid) (right h)]) ((eq? h grid))
2015-05-31T13:42:13Z teurastaja:           (let ([y (node h (left x) (up h) r c v x h 0)])
2015-05-31T13:42:14Z teurastaja:             (horizontal-restore! y)
2015-05-31T13:42:16Z teurastaja:             (vertical-restore! y))))
2015-05-31T13:42:17Z teurastaja:       (horizontal-delete! x)
2015-05-31T13:42:19Z teurastaja:       (vertical-delete! x))))
2015-05-31T13:42:45Z pjb: It would be easier if you started with a 1x1 matrix, and had operations to add a column and to add a row.
2015-05-31T13:43:37Z pjb: Then (define (make-matrix n m) (let ((m (make-1x1-matrix))) (dotimes (i n) (add-column! m)) (dotimes (j m) (add-row! m)) m))
2015-05-31T13:44:00Z teurastaja: *** ERROR: record-ref: instance of #<class <node>> expected, got #t
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2015-05-31T13:44:01Z teurastaja: Stack Trace:
2015-05-31T13:44:03Z teurastaja: _______________________________________
2015-05-31T13:44:05Z teurastaja:   0  (right grid)
2015-05-31T13:44:06Z teurastaja:         At line 80 of "./sudoku24.scm"
2015-05-31T13:44:07Z teurastaja:   1  (do ((h (right grid) (right h))) ((eq? h grid)) (let ((y (node h (
2015-05-31T13:44:09Z teurastaja:         At line 79 of "./sudoku24.scm"
2015-05-31T13:44:10Z teurastaja:   2  (make-grid)
2015-05-31T13:44:12Z teurastaja:         At line 89 of "./sudoku24.scm"
2015-05-31T13:45:39Z teurastaja: the problem is i have this root node (the entry) and it links left/right to the headers (not up/down)
2015-05-31T13:46:02Z pjb: teurastaja: cf. my first question.
2015-05-31T13:46:20Z teurastaja: which is?
2015-05-31T13:46:30Z pjb: <pjb> what about up and down?
2015-05-31T13:47:43Z teurastaja: they dont lin
2015-05-31T13:47:47Z teurastaja: *link
2015-05-31T13:47:52Z pjb: Why?
2015-05-31T13:48:18Z pjb: also, it would help to draw little diagrams, showing situations before and after a given operation.
2015-05-31T13:48:44Z teurastaja: if you look at make-headers youll see that the root node is just left/right into headers
2015-05-31T13:49:04Z pjb: You take the problem from the wrong side.
2015-05-31T13:49:05Z teurastaja: the root node has no up/down
2015-05-31T13:49:24Z pjb: You started talking about doubly linked circular lists of nodes to represent a matrix.
2015-05-31T13:49:48Z pjb: So when you have a 1x1 matrix, the node must have up down left and right links to itself!
2015-05-31T13:50:06Z teurastaja: not from knuths perspective
2015-05-31T13:50:22Z pjb: Show me a make-node function that establish those links.  Without that, nothing can be done.
2015-05-31T13:50:56Z teurastaja: hold on im pastebining
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2015-05-31T13:51:58Z teurastaja: http://pastebin.com/JjEizQRu
2015-05-31T13:55:13Z teurastaja: i make the root node and headers horizontally (thats works). then i make a column of input possibilities and link both
2015-05-31T13:55:14Z pjb: As I said, 1- write tests and validation functions.
2015-05-31T13:55:34Z teurastaja: what i am showing you is a test program
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2015-05-31T13:57:19Z teurastaja: say you use my make-headers. how would you make the other rows and link them without using the root node vertically?
2015-05-31T13:58:33Z pjb: I would never use this code.  It is too unreadable and unmodular.  There's no NxM parameter for the size of the matrix, there are unexplained 3 embedded loops for matrix processing, it's horrible.
2015-05-31T13:58:40Z pjb: My advice: throw it away, and start over.
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2015-05-31T14:00:24Z teurastaja: its my 24th restart
2015-05-31T14:00:45Z pflanze: I need to figure out whether a unicode code point is a word character; word as in human languages.
2015-05-31T14:00:46Z teurastaja: any other advice?
2015-05-31T14:01:03Z pflanze: Any recommended library, or algorithmic pointer?
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2015-05-31T14:01:33Z teurastaja: pflanze: char->integer integer->char
2015-05-31T14:02:00Z pflanze: Well that's the trivial part, the question is what do you do with the integer, please.
2015-05-31T14:02:42Z teurastaja: (char->integer #\a)
2015-05-31T14:02:50Z pflanze: Is 12987983 a word character or not?
2015-05-31T14:03:39Z pflanze: ("Is 12987983 the code point for a word character or not", to use more precise language)
2015-05-31T14:04:05Z teurastaja: i thought there was a char-alphabetic? function
2015-05-31T14:06:37Z pflanze: (map char-alphabetic? (string->list "Motörhead"))
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2015-05-31T14:07:32Z teurastaja: pflanze: maybe you want to use every
2015-05-31T14:07:53Z teurastaja: (every char-alphabetic? (string->list "Motörhead"))
2015-05-31T14:07:58Z pflanze: Is what I'm writing so difficult to comprehend?
2015-05-31T14:08:07Z pflanze: Try this, it will give #f
2015-05-31T14:08:16Z pflanze: Which is why it won't work for me.
2015-05-31T14:08:37Z pflanze: Because there are more unicode characters making up words in human languages than a-z and _.
2015-05-31T14:09:11Z pflanze: (Well, _ isn't part of the set for which char-alphabetic? gives true, it seems.)
2015-05-31T14:12:22Z pflanze needs to eat something, feels too grumpy
2015-05-31T14:12:31Z teurastaja: (define char-alphabetic?
2015-05-31T14:12:32Z teurastaja:   (let ([a1 (char->integer #\A)] [a2 (char->integer #\a)])
2015-05-31T14:12:34Z teurastaja:     (lambda (x)
2015-05-31T14:12:35Z teurastaja:       (let ([y (char->integer x)])
2015-05-31T14:12:37Z teurastaja:         (or (and (> y a1) (< y (+ a1 27)))
2015-05-31T14:12:38Z teurastaja:             (and (> y a2) (< y (+ a2 27))))))))
2015-05-31T14:15:07Z teurastaja: oops replace both > with >=
2015-05-31T14:16:21Z pflanze: So, there are more unicode characters making up words in human languages than a-z and A-Z. If you're still unconvinced, this is french and has two words: "garçon méchant". Give me something that will give me true for every character in this string except for the space.
2015-05-31T14:16:50Z pflanze: And, don't hard code the ç and é, please, instead give me something that works for most human languages.
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2015-05-31T14:17:19Z pflanze: So I'll probably google for it instead; I just thought someone knew maybe.
2015-05-31T14:17:43Z Riastradh: pflanze: http://www.unicode.org/notes/tn36/
2015-05-31T14:18:07Z Riastradh: pflanze: http://unicode.org/reports/tr23/
2015-05-31T14:18:15Z pflanze: Thanks, that looks promising.
2015-05-31T14:18:24Z Riastradh: pflanze: You need the UnicodeData.txt database for this.
2015-05-31T14:18:34Z pflanze: Alright.
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2015-05-31T14:43:00Z teurastaja: pflanze: i speak french. take a unicode table and map all possibilities ;)
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2015-05-31T14:49:18Z kephra: pflanze, http://www.unicode.org/notes/tn36/Categories.txt <- I guess you need this table
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2015-05-31T15:53:36Z ilammy: Ugh, I have broken Chibi's GC again :(
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2015-05-31T16:01:07Z jonasz: is vector-ref O(1) vs list-ref?
2015-05-31T16:01:16Z jonasz: which is O(n) or not?
2015-05-31T16:03:38Z ilammy: Well, RnRS does not explicitly say that vectors have O(1) random access, but I think you could assume it for any sane implementation.
2015-05-31T16:04:07Z ilammy: On the other hand, list-ref would have guaranteed O(n) access
2015-05-31T16:05:01Z ilammy: (However, there could be some optimizations for short lists which make list-ref O(1).)
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2015-05-31T16:07:54Z pjb: ilammy: or even long lists, if cdr-coding is implemented.
2015-05-31T16:09:58Z Riastradh: Heh, cdr-coding.
2015-05-31T16:10:44Z Riastradh: jonasz: You can pretty well rely on O(n) for list-ref and O(1) for vector-ref.  If you're in a sufficiently unusual environment (e.g., picobit, where vector-ref is O(log n)) you'll probably know you're in a weird enough environment anyway.
2015-05-31T16:11:07Z Riastradh: Haven't ever heard of cdr-coding in practice outside the Lisp machines of the eighties.
2015-05-31T16:12:58Z pjb: Riastradh: I hear that "lists" in some programming language (python? ruby?) are actually arrays.  Kind of a cdr-coding :-)
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2015-05-31T16:21:50Z gnomon: pjb, and also several APL-ishes.
2015-05-31T16:29:19Z kephra: Riastradh, *heh* cdr-coding: (define vector-ref list-ref) <- I guess my o3scm is a "sufficiently unusual environment" ;-)
2015-05-31T16:31:58Z Riastradh: kephra: That's the opposite of cdr-coding -- breaking vectors so they run as slowly as lists, not arranging lists in memory with two different possible representations so they can run as fast as vectors.
2015-05-31T16:31:58Z Kooda: There’s also srfi-101-like lists
2015-05-31T16:34:00Z kephra: Riastradh, my scheme look like has no cons cells - all lists are variable length vectors instead, and the . is just syntactical sugar of some forms like lambda
2015-05-31T16:34:21Z kephra: still passing r4rs completely ;-)
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2015-05-31T16:34:49Z Riastradh: OK, so you've broken CONS and CDR instead.
2015-05-31T16:36:52Z kephra: the main break is that some functions (e.g. cdr) produce a copy, instead of a reference
2015-05-31T16:37:35Z kephra: thats why I call o3scm only a Scheme look like - it looks like Scheme, but its not one, because of missing cons cells
2015-05-31T16:46:00Z pjb: kephra: cdr on cdr-consed cons doesn't produce a copy. It just increment the address.  It's set-cdr! on a cdr-consed cons that must split the vector.
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2015-05-31T16:47:31Z kephra: pjb, exactly - cdr returns a reference not a copy - set-cdr! has no behavoir difference in my implementation
2015-05-31T16:48:20Z kephra: but a (set-cdr! (cdr foo) 'bar) wont give expected side effect on bar
2015-05-31T16:49:19Z kephra: thats because cdr in my implemetation has to return a copy
2015-05-31T16:49:33Z kephra: and the side effect on the copy is thrown away
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2015-05-31T18:21:38Z Tirifto: I've reached an example in 'The Scheme Programming Language', and I was a little confused about how things work.
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2015-05-31T18:25:39Z fds: Tirifto: What's the problem?
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2015-05-31T18:26:19Z Tirifto: I uploaded the code online, dissected it, and wrote a short and horrible play about how I think it works. Could someone please verify if I understood that correctly? Link is here: http://hastebin.com/raw/edusobiyal
2015-05-31T18:28:59Z Tirifto: Just describing how I think the process goes would probably be better than the personification, but hopefully it's understandable.
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2015-05-31T18:30:26Z fds: Tirifto: It seems essentially correct to me, although you're right it's not very precise.
2015-05-31T18:30:53Z fds: Of course, someone else might have some comments.
2015-05-31T18:31:55Z Tirifto: I was just confused about there being a lambda expression in a lambda expression
2015-05-31T18:32:23Z Tirifto: But I think I just thought of a much simpler way to portray that
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2015-05-31T18:36:00Z Tirifto: { { (lambda1 [arg1] [body1: (lambda2 [arg2] [body2] ) ] ) exp1} exp2}
2015-05-31T18:36:29Z fds: That seems nowhere near as simple as S-expressions. :-P
2015-05-31T18:36:55Z fds: But why would nested lambda expressions be confusing?  A lambda expression is just like any other function expression.
2015-05-31T18:37:06Z Tirifto: Oh, well, it's just that there is a lambda1 which has a lambda2 in its body.
2015-05-31T18:37:34Z Tirifto: And there's two expressions they take as arguments outside of them both
2015-05-31T18:37:52Z Tirifto: And I wasn't sure how Scheme decides which expression becomes an argument for which lambda.
2015-05-31T18:38:15Z pjb: by order
2015-05-31T18:40:10Z Tirifto: I see
2015-05-31T18:40:20Z Tirifto: This gives me a wrong number of arguments error:
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2015-05-31T18:40:38Z Tirifto: ((lambda (f) (lambda (x) (f x x))) + 13/2)
2015-05-31T18:40:55Z pjb: Sure f takes only one argument.
2015-05-31T18:41:05Z pjb: I mean the first lambda takes only one argument named f.
2015-05-31T18:41:16Z pjb: (((lambda (f) (lambda (x) (f x x))) +) 13/2)
2015-05-31T18:41:53Z Tirifto: So if the expressions are not in different parentheses, they will both go to the first lambda, meaning that the end of one parentheses tells the lambda to stop taking them?
2015-05-31T18:42:04Z pjb: Indeed.
2015-05-31T18:42:10Z pjb: parentheses = operator application.
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2015-05-31T18:43:07Z pjb: To evaluate (o a) scheme must evaluate o and a (in an unspecified order), then if the result of o is a procedure, then call this procedure with as argument, the result of evaluating the expression a.
2015-05-31T18:43:25Z fds: You could of course write: ((lambda (f x) (f x x)) + 13/2)
2015-05-31T18:44:07Z pjb: The transformation of ((lambda (f x) (f x x)) + 13/2) into the normalized form (((lambda (f) (lambda (x) (f x x))) +) 13/2) is called currying.
2015-05-31T18:44:27Z pjb: the later is "normalized" since each lambda takes only one argument.
2015-05-31T18:47:14Z Tirifto: 'define' evaluates its arguments, but 'lambda' does not, right?
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2015-05-31T18:49:56Z taylanub: Tirifto: lambda does not evaluate any of its operands, right.
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2015-05-31T18:50:57Z Tirifto: All right. I will accept this freshly gained knowledge and move on. Thank you for clarifying!
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2015-05-31T18:53:10Z taylanub: tip: in (lambda (x) (+ 2 x)), 'x' is called a "parameter" (or "formal parameter") of the procedure being created.  when that procedure is called, like (foo (+ 1 2)), then the value 3 is the "argument" passed to the function (bound to the parameter x).  and the expression (+ 1 2) could be called to "operand".  as in, an argument is something already-evaluated which a procedure receives, whereas an
2015-05-31T18:53:10Z taylanub: operand is the piece of code that might get evaluated to yield an argument, or whatever (like the operands of 'lambda' have custom meanings)
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2015-05-31T18:53:38Z taylanub: so, lambda has operands, not arguments
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2015-05-31T18:53:55Z pjb: Tirifto: define doesn't evaluate the first argument, and only the 2-argument define evaluates the second arguments.
2015-05-31T18:54:07Z taylanub: (not sure how many people really use such precise terminology.  I wish they did because it makes things being discussed very clear.)
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2015-05-31T18:54:24Z pjb: The n-argument (n>2) define evaluates none of its arguments. Instead, it evaluates a newly built lambda form.
2015-05-31T18:55:08Z taylanub: as you see, some (most?) people just say "argument" even if they mean operand :P
2015-05-31T18:55:19Z pjb: taylanub: I use parameters, instead of operands.  Operands are often reserved to parameters of infix operators.
2015-05-31T18:55:48Z pjb: I used "argument" very precisely in the above sentences.
2015-05-31T18:56:26Z Tirifto: So the placeholder for an expression to be used in its stead (lambda ***(x)***...) is called parameter
2015-05-31T18:56:30Z ilammy: Just call it 'form'. Everything is some kind of form in Lisp!
2015-05-31T18:56:31Z taylanub: pjb: parameters?  I mean operands in the sense of ... subexpressions in non-operator position.
2015-05-31T18:56:38Z pjb: procedures don't do anything with their arguments, since they only receive the results of evaluating those arguments before they're called, in their parameters.
2015-05-31T18:57:00Z pjb: But macros receive in their parameters their arguments unevaluated.
2015-05-31T18:57:06Z taylanub: pjb: uh, I thought the argument was the value the procedure receives
2015-05-31T18:57:13Z taylanub: oh well, we're using vastly different terms
2015-05-31T18:57:30Z Tirifto: I'll stick with ilammy's advice for now! :)
2015-05-31T18:57:33Z taylanub: Tirifto: the (x) there is the parameter list, containing the one parameter x
2015-05-31T18:57:47Z pjb: taylanub: you could confuse arguments and the value received in non-lisp language, but given macros and the different rules of evaluation of the arguments in lisp, you must distinguish them.
2015-05-31T18:58:16Z Tirifto: So the (x) is the form of forms, containing the one form x. Would that be correct?
2015-05-31T18:58:16Z taylanub: pjb: that's why I say operand for the subforms in non-first position of a compound form
2015-05-31T18:58:28Z taylanub: Tirifto: yes :D
2015-05-31T18:58:50Z taylanub: but it doesn't say very much, since (x) could be a function call as well, or anything really
2015-05-31T18:59:00Z pjb: In (m (+ 1 2)) and (f (+ 1 2)), (+ 1 2) is the argument.  But in the case of the macro m, its parameter will be bound to the list (+ 1 2), while in the case of a function f, its parameter will be bound to the number 3, result of evaluating the argument (+ 1 2).
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2015-05-31T19:00:15Z taylanub: I would say, (+ 1 2) is the operand, f receives the argument 3, and m receives the argument #'(+ 1 2) i.e. a syntax object.
2015-05-31T19:00:53Z pjb: taylanub: ok.
2015-05-31T19:00:54Z taylanub: the only question is which terminology is more common :P
2015-05-31T19:01:18Z pjb: Your terminology is not without merits.
2015-05-31T19:01:59Z Tirifto: Can someone make a catchy music video to help schemer masses learn the proper terminology?
2015-05-31T19:03:34Z taylanub: I think I actually caught this terminology from J. Shutt's thesis about the Kernel language; not sure how common it is outside of his paper but I found his terminology to be overall very clear and precise so I adopted it.
2015-05-31T19:04:04Z ilammy furiously looks for sleep(pow(10, GC_DEBUG_LEVEL)); in Chibi source code while waiting for it to compile itself for yet another fifteen minutes.
2015-05-31T19:04:34Z pjb: CLHS is less precise than your terminology, overloading "argument" with the two meanings of "operand" and "argument". http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/26_glo_a.htm#argument
2015-05-31T19:04:34Z rudybot: http://teensy.info/rd8QlJeKZC
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2015-05-31T19:05:47Z pjb: ilammy: add a progress option to the compiler. --progress=bar or --progress=dots
2015-05-31T19:06:20Z Tirifto: Okay, so... argument is an object offered as data to a function when it's called... function is a procedure... and everything is a form.
2015-05-31T19:08:27Z ilammy: pjb: well, I've added && echo -en "\007" to command line to wake up when it's done.
2015-05-31T19:09:05Z Tirifto: How much does HTDP actually rely on mathematics?
2015-05-31T19:10:31Z pjb: ilammy: let me you advice: && mplayer /data/music/ride-of-walkiries.mp3 || mplayer /data/music/chopin-sonate-piano-2-movement-3.mp3
2015-05-31T19:10:43Z pjb: Tirifto: just what is needed.
2015-05-31T19:13:31Z Tirifto: I'm learning with TSPM now, and so far everything was clear and didn't require much external knowledge, so I guess that might be a good book for me :)
2015-05-31T19:15:37Z pjb: Finish it, it is not bad.
2015-05-31T19:16:11Z taylanub: Tirifto: Scheme prefers not to use the word "function" for things that don't fit the mathematical definition of a function.  Scheme procedures may be functions as per the maths definition, but aren't always.  (lambda (x) (+ 2 x)) is a function; (lambda (y) (set! x y)) is not, because maths don't have a thing such as "set!".  (define y 2)  (lambda (x) (+ x y)) is also not a function, because it
2015-05-31T19:16:11Z taylanub: could return different values even when I call it with the same argument (because I could set! y in between the two calls), whereas a mathematical function's output is defined purely by its input
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2015-05-31T19:18:02Z Tirifto: I see.
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2015-05-31T19:26:43Z Tirifto: Questions: What are the curly brackets in Racket?
2015-05-31T19:32:25Z taylanub: Tirifto: curly braces?  like { } ?  don't know of Racket using them for anything.
2015-05-31T19:32:39Z taylanub: or do you mean square brackets like [ ] ?
2015-05-31T19:33:06Z taylanub: (those are just equivalent to ( ) in R6RS and Racket)
2015-05-31T19:33:54Z Tirifto: I meant curly
2015-05-31T19:34:10Z Tirifto: And I thought they were used in Racket, but maybe I was confusing it with something.
2015-05-31T19:35:18Z Tirifto: Yep, probably my imagination.
2015-05-31T19:35:46Z taylanub: they're used in SRFI-105 http://srfi.schemers.org/srfi-105/ but it's not very widespread
2015-05-31T19:36:20Z taylanub: Guile also has #{foo bar}# for the symbol "foo bar" (because symbols normally can't contain a space)
2015-05-31T19:36:27Z taylanub: though the more modern syntax for that is |foo bar|
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2015-05-31T19:59:21Z koz_: For Bigloo Scheme, is there a list of all the types that I can use with their symbol::type notation anywhere?
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