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2015-04-01T04:05:46Z RexButler_: Can someone help me with some syntax?
2015-04-01T04:06:03Z RexButler_: https://gist.github.com/rexbutlerop/901ecc28ac41b7ee8054
2015-04-01T04:10:31Z RexButler_: Anyone around?
2015-04-01T04:10:41Z Tbone139: working it now, but I may have misled you yesterday...
2015-04-01T04:11:01Z RexButler_: Don't worry, I just got back to it a few minutes ago.  :)
2015-04-01T04:11:10Z RexButler_: I just need another pair of eyes
2015-04-01T04:11:14Z RexButler_: It says line 12
2015-04-01T04:11:18Z RexButler_: But I can't see the problem
2015-04-01T04:11:39Z Tbone139: a quick test indicates 'let' doesn't like ((abs x) (...)) as opposed to (abs (lambda(x) ...)
2015-04-01T04:11:55Z RexButler_: ok
2015-04-01T04:13:17Z Tbone139: so you'd start the let* with (let* ((epsilon 0.0001) (average (lambda(x) (/x 2)) etc.
2015-04-01T04:13:40Z Tbone139: (/x 2))) that is
2015-04-01T04:13:47Z cojy_: RexButler_: you can't use the same define sugar with let
2015-04-01T04:14:18Z daviid: you don't need the lambda either: (let* ((epsilon 0.0001) (average (/x 2)) ...
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2015-04-01T04:17:47Z RexButler_: Hmm
2015-04-01T04:20:53Z Tbone139: good to know! as for your parenthesis, you've closed out your entire 'let' block before the body, but it's supposed to look like (let ((a 4)) (+ a 2)) ->6
2015-04-01T04:22:06Z Tbone139: ...where ((a 4) (b 6)) would be definitions and (+ a 2) is the body
2015-04-01T04:25:22Z RexButler_: ok let me try
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2015-04-01T04:30:45Z RexButler_: https://gist.github.com/rexbutlerop/2d29da00fbafdd49f7b9
2015-04-01T04:32:23Z RexButler_: application: not a procedure;
2015-04-01T04:32:23Z RexButler_:  expected a procedure that can be applied to arguments
2015-04-01T04:32:30Z RexButler_: hmm
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2015-04-01T04:38:42Z Tbone139: (m-init (2)) should be (m-init 2), got another error though...
2015-04-01T04:39:51Z Tbone139: Oh, (m_iter (/ (average x (/ 2 x)))) has a division operation with no divisor
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2015-04-01T04:44:30Z RexButler_: https://gist.github.com/rexbutlerop/5f8db70b22908a23e940
2015-04-01T04:46:29Z RexButler_: I'm still struggling with getting my parens in the right places
2015-04-01T04:46:53Z RexButler_: I'm currently going through chapter 1.  Read it, just doing the exercises with my own twist.
2015-04-01T04:47:07Z RexButler_: Chapter 1 of SICP that is.
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2015-04-01T04:50:11Z Tbone139: Alright, so you do need the (lambda(x) if you want to define a procedure inside a let, otherwise it gives 'unbound identifier'
2015-04-01T04:50:23Z Tbone139: currently trying to get your procedure to a working state
2015-04-01T04:52:08Z Tbone139: Don't suppose vim has a module for highlighting parenthesis as you type them, it helps immensely
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2015-04-01T04:55:30Z RexButler_: Vim highlights matching parens...
2015-04-01T04:56:20Z RexButler_: https://gist.github.com/rexbutlerop/02f432ea46ce6c49a80a
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2015-04-01T05:02:05Z RexButler_: Now I think mu_compute is wrong
2015-04-01T05:03:46Z RexButler_: I'm closer, I think
2015-04-01T05:05:16Z Tbone139: still working on it here, I'll have a working version for you eventually
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2015-04-01T05:12:09Z RexButler_: line 20 should be:
2015-04-01T05:12:14Z RexButler_:   ((mu_compute m_init m_iter m_finish? m_final) x)))
2015-04-01T05:12:27Z RexButler_: [Insert m_iter]
2015-04-01T05:12:47Z Tbone139: http://paste.lisp.org/display/146697 working
2015-04-01T05:14:02Z zacts: RexButler_: what are you doing with vim + scheme?
2015-04-01T05:14:09Z zacts hopes it's a scheme indent algorithm for vim
2015-04-01T05:14:25Z zacts: I tried to make a vim plugin to do this, but lost the time to work on it
2015-04-01T05:14:35Z RexButler_: zacts: Having a lot of trouble apparently
2015-04-01T05:14:43Z RexButler_: I am still new to the ways of scheme
2015-04-01T05:14:48Z RexButler_: What do you use, zacts?
2015-04-01T05:15:14Z zacts: RexButler_: I used to use vim with tmux and the tslime.vim plugin to send scheme expressions to a REPL in a tmux split screen
2015-04-01T05:15:17Z zacts: I'm using emacs now
2015-04-01T05:15:38Z zacts: I can help with vim + scheme though if you have questions
2015-04-01T05:16:02Z zacts: but currently, as far as I know, vim doesn't have proper scheme indent like emacs out of the box
2015-04-01T05:16:18Z zacts: also, I can help you to indent scheme with the <tab> key rather than a magical auto indent in vim
2015-04-01T05:16:30Z zacts: but it's not exactly like emacs scheme syntax indenting
2015-04-01T05:16:45Z zacts: so you'll have to :!indent-scm.rkt to do this
2015-04-01T05:16:51Z zacts: I'll show you the link for the racket script
2015-04-01T05:16:56Z RexButler_: What is the difference between #lang racket and #lang planet/neil scip
2015-04-01T05:17:11Z RexButler_: I noticed you changed the lang definition at the top, Tbone139
2015-04-01T05:17:36Z Tbone139: you can ignore that, I just let Racket do its thing.
2015-04-01T05:17:53Z zacts: RexButler_: http://www.ccs.neu.edu/home/dorai/scmindent/
2015-04-01T05:18:43Z RexButler_: tx
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2015-04-01T05:19:55Z zacts: RexButler_: do you use tab normally in vim to indent lines?
2015-04-01T05:20:12Z zacts: or do you have lines indented on <ret> in i-mode, and on o O in normal mode?
2015-04-01T05:20:27Z zacts: If the former, then I can share my .vimrc with you, on how I did this
2015-04-01T05:20:37Z RexButler_: I used tabs, but have them autoconvert to spaces
2015-04-01T05:20:54Z RexButler_: Because that is what I do when coding
2015-04-01T05:20:58Z RexButler_: Sweet, it works
2015-04-01T05:21:12Z RexButler_: Okay, I computed sqrt(2) using a fairly generic process
2015-04-01T05:21:15Z zacts: RexButler_: let me show you my .vimrc
2015-04-01T05:21:33Z RexButler_: You guys are awfully helpful... thanks
2015-04-01T05:21:51Z zacts: RexButler_: http://sprunge.us/CYKY
2015-04-01T05:22:13Z zacts: ^ this is my ~/.vim/after/indent/scheme.vim
2015-04-01T05:22:41Z zacts: this will automagically indent your scheme fairly well, when you press <tab>
2015-04-01T05:22:58Z zacts: it does require ':set filetype plugin indent on' in your .vimrc though
2015-04-01T05:24:03Z RexButler_: So, Tbone what is the main thing you did.
2015-04-01T05:24:09Z RexButler_: My final version is close to yours
2015-04-01T05:25:10Z Tbone139: biggest changes were including multiple arguments on procedures like 'average'
2015-04-01T05:25:55Z RexButler_: yes, I saw that problem as well
2015-04-01T05:26:34Z Tbone139: I'm heading to bed though. Keep goin' with SICP, some of the exercises get tough though!
2015-04-01T05:26:56Z RexButler_: kk
2015-04-01T05:27:00Z zacts: SICP is cool
2015-04-01T05:27:03Z RexButler_: Thanks for the help!
2015-04-01T05:27:49Z RexButler_: It has a lot of mathematical examples
2015-04-01T05:28:16Z zacts: RexButler_: yeah, I'm actually reviewing my math and calculus right now in prep for SICP
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2015-04-01T05:29:45Z RexButler_: My main background is in math
2015-04-01T05:29:57Z RexButler_: I'm self educated in CS though
2015-04-01T05:30:12Z zacts: yeah, that's cool
2015-04-01T05:30:19Z zacts: I'm working through a few books right now
2015-04-01T05:30:28Z RexButler_: SICP kept coming up, so I decided to buy it
2015-04-01T05:30:45Z zacts: http://www.cambridge.org/us/academic/subjects/mathematics/logic-categories-and-sets/how-prove-it-structured-approach-2nd-edition
2015-04-01T05:30:47Z rudybot: http://tinyurl.com/q959uof
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2015-04-01T05:30:54Z RexButler_: Ack... better go
2015-04-01T05:31:04Z zacts: I'm getting thru this ^ and I'm also doing the MIT ocw calculus courses
2015-04-01T05:31:09Z zacts: laters
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2015-04-01T05:32:24Z zacts: RexButler_: you may also like SICM 2nd edition, and Functional Differential Geometry
2015-04-01T05:32:37Z zacts: which are both by Sussman also, the co-author of SICP
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2015-04-01T05:35:24Z RexButler_: interesting
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2015-04-01T12:51:19Z vanila: hello
2015-04-01T12:51:46Z taylanub: rudybot: greet vanila
2015-04-01T12:51:47Z rudybot: taylanub: just tried to save a file anything.gpg (for encrypting with easypg) as far as I know the only thing needed is saving a file with extension gpg. On my customized version of emacs on my desktop it works great, but on my vanila install of emacs on my handheld pc it doesn't work. "opening output file: searching for program. No such file or directory, gpg. Using emacs 24 no X
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2015-04-01T12:51:52Z taylanub: welp
2015-04-01T12:51:57Z vanila: lol
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2015-04-01T12:52:19Z vanila: I'm really frustrated with scheme because I can't write a modular program
2015-04-01T12:52:38Z taylanub: that's why people submit to specific implementations :\
2015-04-01T12:52:44Z vanila: I wonder if anyone knows how to solve this problem? (r7rs) let me explain
2015-04-01T12:53:18Z vanila: im implementing a language and it has a substitution as one of the core parts (that module provides empty-substitution, extend-substitution etc.)
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2015-04-01T12:53:43Z vanila: but i want to be able to provide multiple different implementations of substitution (different data structures)
2015-04-01T12:54:12Z vanila: that seems to force me to duplicate every .sld file in my program for each new impl. of substitution
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2015-04-01T12:54:58Z vanila: I wonder if my explanation made sense? it's really blocking me in extending my program
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2015-04-01T12:59:56Z vanila: I don't want to have to rewrite my whole thing in ML but im lost as to what to do here :|
2015-04-01T13:01:25Z taylanub: you could have a wrapper procedure for each your procedures that implement the data structure, and that wrapper could select the implementation at run-time depending on a parameter
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2015-04-01T13:02:52Z vanila: yeah i mean an object oriented approach is a solution to the modularity problem, but I feel like i need the selection to be statically resolved because this dispatch would be performed for every program step so the overhead is worrying :(
2015-04-01T13:05:06Z taylanub: vanila: your .sld files could use `include-library-declarations' so you can change stuff in one or few files
2015-04-01T13:06:33Z vanila: would that still involve duplicating every sld file that imports substitution? just that those impls woudl be tiny and mostly include-library-definitions
2015-04-01T13:07:39Z taylanub: nah, just make all those .sld include a file like configurable-substitution.sld which has an import for whatever substitution module you want
2015-04-01T13:08:29Z vanila: ahh that's intersting :O
2015-04-01T13:09:41Z vanila: going to try it out, thanks very much for the idea!
2015-04-01T13:09:50Z taylanub: hth :)
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2015-04-01T13:19:21Z vanila: :/
2015-04-01T13:19:23Z vanila: god damn it
2015-04-01T13:19:42Z vanila: going to have to add features to implementation but i think this can work
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2015-04-01T14:59:56Z vanila: any thoughts on the syntax #(foo x y z) for records?
2015-04-01T15:00:21Z taylanub: well that's a vector
2015-04-01T15:01:01Z vanila: ah i saw it used in a pattern matcher to differentiate records from lists
2015-04-01T15:01:11Z vanila: that it's actually a vector seems a bit confusing
2015-04-01T15:01:19Z taylanub: hmm
2015-04-01T15:01:43Z taylanub: foof's match had something for records too...
2015-04-01T15:02:00Z taylanub: ($ record-name pat_1 ... pat_n)
2015-04-01T15:03:04Z vraid: racket uses #s(foo x y z)
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2015-04-01T15:19:44Z pjb: CL uses: #S(structure-type-name  :field-name1 field-value1 … :field-nameN field-valueN)
2015-04-01T15:20:08Z pjb: Remember that the "C" in "CL" means "Common".
2015-04-01T15:20:30Z pjb: It's what people, including scheme designers on the CL standardization commitee, agreed to do in common!
2015-04-01T15:20:41Z taylanub: /troll
2015-04-01T15:21:03Z LeoNerd: No, it means "common", as in.. unrefined.
2015-04-01T15:21:11Z LeoNerd: Think "commoner", "common man", etc. :P
2015-04-01T15:21:22Z taylanub: /troll2
2015-04-01T15:21:35Z taylanub: no_fun_allowed.jpg :P
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2015-04-01T15:24:39Z pjb: taylanub: check: http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/01_ab.htm  ; it is a fact that one of the scheme designers were on the CL commitee.
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2015-04-01T15:26:35Z leppie: TREASON!
2015-04-01T15:26:45Z technomancy: Lisp of Commons, Lisp of Lords.
2015-04-01T15:27:34Z LeoNerd: Does that mean we get the red cushions?
2015-04-01T15:28:16Z technomancy: you didn't get your complimentary red cushion with your copy of RNRS?
2015-04-01T15:28:53Z LeoNerd ponders idly on r7rs-draft-excluder
2015-04-01T15:29:06Z taylanub: pjb: it is also a fact that CL is simply a different programming language than Scheme
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2015-04-01T15:29:31Z taylanub: for starters, Scheme has "records" and not "structures", so the letter S doesn't make sense :P
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2015-04-01T15:30:04Z pjb: taylanub: agreed.  Nonetheless, reducing differences between the different lisp programming languages is the purpose of CL, and is a worthwhile goal.  When discussing new or changes in syntax and features, it is a good idea to look at what CL does, and try to do the same.
2015-04-01T15:30:05Z leppie: taylanub: Given Racket call them structs
2015-04-01T15:30:17Z technomancy: different is bad, mkay?
2015-04-01T15:30:40Z pjb: taylanub: also, CL has a nice glossary, that can also be reused.  There's no point to diverge on synonyms.
2015-04-01T15:30:58Z pjb: technomancy: gratuituously different is bad.
2015-04-01T15:31:10Z pjb: technomancy: call/cc is a true difference that is good to have in scheme.
2015-04-01T15:31:25Z taylanub: I agree with you to the extent where there aren't existing divergences (like record vs. struct) and where CL doesn't use absolutely brain-fried names like "rplaca"
2015-04-01T15:31:56Z pjb: taylanub: you can easily lose rplaca, it appears almost never in modern CL program. It's there only to be able to run old programs.
2015-04-01T15:32:07Z technomancy: taylanub: what, you think vowels are free?
2015-04-01T15:32:16Z technomancy: kids these days
2015-04-01T15:32:22Z taylanub: :)
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2015-04-01T15:32:37Z leppie: how will it ever compile down to fortran?!
2015-04-01T15:32:47Z pjb: technomancy: not vowels.  RPLACA was good, because it stood in a single 36-bit (= 6 6-bit characters) word.
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2015-04-01T15:33:37Z pjb: leppie: when you have a computer with 32 Kw of RAM, and running at 200 kHz, you can't deny the goodness of being able to compare identifiers with a single one-word compare.
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2015-04-01T15:34:55Z leppie: pjb: same speed when using interning on symbols (but of course much more space needed)
2015-04-01T15:35:14Z pjb: definitely.
2015-04-01T15:36:02Z leppie: pjb: alos you would be hardpressed to find even a microcontroller running at 200kHz (except some of the ultra low power Cortex-M0 ones)
2015-04-01T15:36:30Z pjb: of course, that's why nowadays we write (setf (car cell) new-value) and use Common Lisp.
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2015-04-01T15:37:25Z leppie: pjb: that just reminds me of C+ reference values. I dont even bother going there ;p
2015-04-01T15:37:41Z leppie: s/C+/C++/
2015-04-01T15:38:40Z taylanub: I prefer to write functional code and use Scheme, nowadays ;)
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2015-04-01T23:06:03Z sea: Hi all, what's a reasonable way to build a scheme repl without any access to the filesystem without reimplementing scheme?
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2015-04-01T23:13:42Z pjb: sea: use eval.
2015-04-01T23:14:55Z pjb: Now, the problem is actually to define the right environment.  There's no standard way to define the environment you want with r5rs.  Perhaps there's something in r7rs?
2015-04-01T23:17:50Z pjb: sea: if you don't want to reimplement scheme, it will be an implementation specific endeavor, I'm afraid.
2015-04-01T23:21:17Z sea: So I'll make an environment with only the things I want to expose defined in it? That doesn't sound that bad
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2015-04-02T02:19:08Z RexButler: Tbone139:  You here tonight?
2015-04-02T02:19:17Z Tbone139: aye sir!
2015-04-02T02:20:15Z Tbone139: caught me structuring a project euler problem
2015-04-02T02:21:54Z RexButler: I've done a few of those euler problems
2015-04-02T02:21:56Z RexButler: Some in ruby
2015-04-02T02:22:02Z RexButler: Some in scala
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2015-04-02T02:24:09Z Tbone139: 79 solved w/ 100% scheme lisp thus far
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2015-04-02T02:25:32Z RexButler: Wow, good job.
2015-04-02T02:25:46Z RexButler: I haven't got much past the first 25.
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2015-04-02T02:26:04Z RexButler: Ugh... I'm not good at reading scheme syntax error messages yet.  :(
2015-04-02T02:26:26Z Tbone139: what's the current message?
2015-04-02T02:28:22Z RexButler: One moment: I'm trying to get sprunge working so I can paste online from command line
2015-04-02T02:33:35Z RexButler: Tbone139: Who was the other guy we were talking to last night?  He used sprunge, I believe.
2015-04-02T02:34:43Z Tbone139: not sure and don't have the logs for it unforts
2015-04-02T02:34:59Z RexButler: Tbone139: https://gist.github.com/rexbutler/6b249f31ead6021c7b21
2015-04-02T02:35:09Z RexButler: Same as last night, just factorial this time, not square root
2015-04-02T02:35:29Z RexButler: It's complaining about line 26
2015-04-02T02:37:03Z Tbone139: (m_final (lambda n prod) prod)) I'm guessing you meant (m_final (lambda(n prod) prod)))
2015-04-02T02:39:52Z Tbone139: hmm, stuck in a loop...
2015-04-02T02:41:05Z RexButler: Yeah, let me look at it.
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2015-04-02T02:44:23Z Tbone139: (m_iter (lambda(n prod) (- n 1) (* prod n)))  <- the (- n 1) doesn't actually do anything here, this lambda only returns the rightmost result
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2015-04-02T02:55:50Z RexButler: How do I return the pair?
2015-04-02T02:55:58Z RexButler: Add parens?
2015-04-02T02:56:46Z RexButler: I've read chapter 1 of SICP, but I really need to read about basic scheme because it doesn't cover a lot of basics in ch 1 of SICP
2015-04-02T02:57:42Z pjb: Read r5rs.
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2015-04-02T02:57:55Z Tbone139: you'd use lists to do that, but SICP hasn't gotten that far yet
2015-04-02T02:57:59Z pjb: Less than 50 pages: http://www.schemers.org/Documents/Standards/R5RS/HTML/
2015-04-02T02:58:08Z RexButler: pjb:  THanks
2015-04-02T03:00:16Z pjb: RexButler: notice that m_iter must be of a type  e -> a -> a
2015-04-02T03:00:40Z pjb: therefore if you return a list, then prod will be a list, not a number.
2015-04-02T03:01:01Z RexButler: Yeah, my syntax is off because I haven't familiarized myself with it yet.  I need to read r5rs, etc...
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2015-04-02T03:03:16Z RexButler: Anyone know if I can get that R5RS doc as a pdf?
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2015-04-02T03:04:09Z RexButler: NEvermind, found it.
2015-04-02T03:04:12Z pjb: Remove HTML from the url: http://www.schemers.org/Documents/Standards/R5RS/
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2015-04-02T03:05:00Z RexButler: BTW, what are the standard scheme books besides SICP that you would recommend?
2015-04-02T03:05:05Z pjb: It's also in info format, so I just type C-h i m r5rs RET in emacs.
2015-04-02T03:05:38Z pjb: HTDP would be a good book to learn scheme.
2015-04-02T03:05:44Z pjb: And of course, the new r7rs.
2015-04-02T03:06:01Z RexButler: You guys are a lot more helpful that the folks in #java.  Sheesh.  I felt mocked when I went there.
2015-04-02T03:06:11Z pjb: There are a lot of tutorials and book referenced on this schemers.org site.
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2015-04-02T03:09:23Z Tbone139: TBH I think your all-purpose iterator is hindering you at this point and you could move through exercises faster making standalone procedures
2015-04-02T03:10:10Z Tbone139: then the same could probably be said for me and my dependency on named-lets
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2015-04-02T03:17:11Z RexButler: Yeah, sort of.  I'm gettings basic syntax wrong.  Besides that it's been quick.
2015-04-02T03:17:30Z RexButler: Once I get the basics of syntax, etc... I'll be faster.
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2015-04-02T03:35:40Z RexButler: I just ordered a copy of HTDP as well.
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2015-04-02T03:37:16Z zacts: RexButler: which edition did you get?
2015-04-02T03:37:48Z RexButler: First, used.
2015-04-02T03:37:49Z RexButler: Why?
2015-04-02T03:37:52Z zacts: oh, just curious
2015-04-02T03:38:02Z zacts: I was thinking I might eventually order it in book form also
2015-04-02T03:38:06Z RexButler: New is a bit pricey
2015-04-02T03:38:12Z zacts: I much prefer physical books over ebooks
2015-04-02T03:38:18Z RexButler: The pdf isn't of very high quality, so...
2015-04-02T03:38:22Z zacts: I have a difficult time reading on my laptop for heavy textbook reading
2015-04-02T03:38:40Z zacts: and I don't own any e-ink readers
2015-04-02T03:39:08Z zacts: (mainly because I can't afford one, and I wish to support free / open hardware solutions)
2015-04-02T03:39:14Z RexButler: Yeah, I hear you.  I got the old edition of the dragon compiler book at Deseret Industries for $6
2015-04-02T03:39:33Z zacts: I got the 4.4 BSD design book for $8 with free shipping
2015-04-02T03:39:58Z zacts: although, that particular book was more for nostalgia
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2015-04-02T05:05:46Z RexButler: zacts:  Where you the one using sprunge yesterday?
2015-04-02T05:05:53Z RexButler: I can't find a place to download it
2015-04-02T05:06:00Z RexButler: (I'm running on Ubuntu Linux)
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2015-04-02T05:33:45Z zacts: RexButler: Yeah I was using sprunge
2015-04-02T05:33:55Z zacts: there isn't really an app that I know of for it
2015-04-02T05:33:59Z zacts: http://sprunge.us
2015-04-02T05:34:04Z zacts: ^ the instructions are here
2015-04-02T05:34:07Z zacts: you need curl
2015-04-02T05:34:17Z zacts: I made a bash alias for it though, let me paste here:
2015-04-02T05:34:47Z zacts: alias sprunge="curl -F 'sprunge=<-' http://sprunge.us"
2015-04-02T05:34:54Z zacts: ^ I put this in my .bashrc
2015-04-02T05:34:56Z zacts: oops
2015-04-02T05:34:58Z zacts: ~/.bashrc
2015-04-02T05:35:04Z zacts: with quotes and everything
2015-04-02T05:35:14Z zacts: then I do: cat file.txt | sprunge
2015-04-02T05:35:27Z zacts: and this will pastebin to http://sprunge.us/
2015-04-02T05:35:35Z zacts: it will print the link that it pastes to
2015-04-02T05:35:46Z zacts: Oh, RexButler is gone for the moment...
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2015-04-02T05:36:00Z zacts: if RexButler asks again about this, and I'm gone, this is my response
2015-04-02T05:36:03Z zacts: :-)
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2015-04-02T06:30:07Z t4nk098: hello
2015-04-02T06:39:51Z Tbone139: hi t4nk098
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2015-04-02T07:13:17Z disciple: hi all
2015-04-02T07:13:33Z disciple: good idiomatic scheme code to study?
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2015-04-02T07:28:43Z zacts: disciple: for what application domain?
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2015-04-02T07:42:22Z disciple: something other than compilers and interpreters
2015-04-02T07:42:38Z disciple: general purpose programs?
2015-04-02T07:43:42Z disciple: been exploring java APIs using kawa and it's been quite nice so far...
2015-04-02T07:44:17Z disciple: but the code is not idiomatic...
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2015-04-02T07:54:24Z taylanub: disciple: one just follows Riastradh's style guide and uses functional programming style; the rest is probably mostly up to the individual
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2015-04-02T08:41:45Z wasamasa is still not used to scheme not coming with when/unless/if-not
2015-04-02T08:46:23Z taylanub: wasamasa: R7RS has when/unless, as many implementations.  how is if-not useful?
2015-04-02T08:47:08Z wasamasa: taylanub: that's the clojure name for unless
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2015-04-02T09:07:09Z technomancy: unless is when-not
2015-04-02T09:07:20Z technomancy: err
2015-04-02T09:07:24Z technomancy: actually not sure; nm
2015-04-02T09:07:43Z technomancy: yeah, when-not
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2015-04-02T09:20:19Z disciple: taylanub: will check out the style guide, thanks.
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2015-04-02T09:35:46Z kephra: moin
2015-04-02T09:36:24Z kephra: some schemes implement a read-line function, but I was not able to find the specs for this and related
2015-04-02T09:38:41Z kephra: r6rs has get-string-all and get-line
2015-04-02T09:39:46Z kephra: it looks as if the read-* functions of r4rs had been renamed in r6rs
2015-04-02T09:40:12Z kephra: any idea how to proceed for a r4rs look like?
2015-04-02T09:44:44Z mark_weaver: if you restrict yourself to portable R4RS, then the answer is: you write your own read-line procedure.
2015-04-02T09:46:40Z kephra: yes, but the question of a toy scheme author is: how to name this library function?
2015-04-02T09:47:56Z mark_weaver: that's up to you
2015-04-02T09:49:50Z kephra: i hoped to find some guidelines - but it did not found an SRFI for such a common topic like read-line
2015-04-02T09:50:32Z kephra: r6rs is able to read blocked lines -> back to mainframe days ;-)
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2015-04-02T09:57:06Z tsumetai`: I wish map, length, etc. were named list-map, list-length, etc.
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2015-04-02T10:03:26Z saul thinks list-length would be fine, but not list-map
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2015-04-02T10:14:50Z kephra: tsumetai`, and map, length, append, etc check if they get strings, lists, vectors, ...
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2015-04-02T10:24:50Z tsumetai`: Yep!
2015-04-02T10:25:03Z tsumetai`: Which would be easy if those names weren't already taken.
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2015-04-02T10:30:00Z technomancy: I've heard a rumour this could happen for racket2
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2015-04-02T11:23:55Z wasamasa: racket2?
2015-04-02T11:30:40Z technomancy: wasamasa: still a theoretical/wishlist discussion afaict
2015-04-02T11:31:23Z wasamasa: I thought racket had the version 5/6?
2015-04-02T11:32:38Z taylanub: maybe it's implicitly 1.x, like Emacs
2015-04-02T11:33:02Z wasamasa: lol
2015-04-02T11:33:29Z taylanub: wasn't really a joke :-)  Emacs dropped the 1. at some point...
2015-04-02T11:34:19Z taylanub: "Early versions of GNU Emacs were numbered as "1.x.x," with the initial digit denoting the version of the C core. The "1" was dropped after version 1.12 as it was thought that the major number would never change, and thus the numbering skipped from "1" to "13".[citation needed]"
2015-04-02T11:35:52Z technomancy: wasamasa: I think it's racket-the-implementation vs racket-the-language
2015-04-02T11:36:09Z technomancy: wasamasa: https://github.com/plt/racket/wiki/Racket2
2015-04-02T11:37:03Z wasamasa: taylanub: I wonder where the sources of the earliest available emacs are and whether it's possible to get it running
2015-04-02T11:37:35Z wasamasa: technomancy: ah, ok
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2015-04-02T11:38:21Z wasamasa: "Have quasiquote support ... as well as ,@"
2015-04-02T11:38:27Z wasamasa: racket's quasiquote doesn't support ,@?
2015-04-02T11:39:03Z wasamasa: huh, it does
2015-04-02T11:39:24Z wasamasa: or is that refering to a non-reader variant of it?
2015-04-02T11:40:34Z taylanub: wasamasa: I think the sentence is supposed to read "support X and not just Y" when it says "as well as Y"
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2015-04-02T16:01:22Z Gianormagantrous: So, I am having a hard time to return a given list *without* the nth item.
2015-04-02T16:01:32Z Gianormagantrous: e.g. (PleaseRemoveItemIndexedAt 1 (list 10 11 12 13)) → (list 10 12 13)
2015-04-02T16:02:01Z ijp: what have you tried so far?
2015-04-02T16:02:12Z Gianormagantrous: I've looked around and fiddled with the code to no avail
2015-04-02T16:03:21Z Gianormagantrous: Ive tried to append (car mylist) in a new list until the index is reached but I have not succeed
2015-04-02T16:03:37Z Gianormagantrous is just learning scheme and loving it :-)
2015-04-02T16:03:56Z Tbone139: (reverse (cdr (reverse input-list))) would be one way
2015-04-02T16:04:16Z Tbone139: Oh, not necessary last
2015-04-02T16:04:19Z Tbone139: hang on
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2015-04-02T16:05:39Z Gianormagantrous: I can deal with an index of 0. i.e. (cdr lst)
2015-04-02T16:05:56Z Gianormagantrous: thats the easy one...
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2015-04-02T16:07:18Z Gianormagantrous: That double reverse thing could prove useful. Thanks Tbone139
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2015-04-02T16:08:03Z Gianormagantrous: What do you guys use here to share code, examples, trials and errors ?
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2015-04-02T16:11:32Z Tbone139: gist.github.com would work
2015-04-02T16:12:17Z saul: Gianormagantrous, if mean just sharing in IRC then http://paste.lisp.org/ is one option.
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2015-04-02T16:13:38Z Gianormagantrous: So far I have https://gist.github.com/pl-gauthier/658145eced1f0654edbc
2015-04-02T16:14:09Z Gianormagantrous: Please share any "best practices" commentary
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2015-04-02T16:14:44Z Gianormagantrous: Anyway thats where I am so far.
2015-04-02T16:15:21Z Gianormagantrous: My goal is a function that returns a random element in a list and the rest of said list.
2015-04-02T16:15:44Z Gianormagantrous: ^ in a (value (RestOfTheList)) format.
2015-04-02T16:15:50Z saul: If you have SRFI-1 available then you could remove the nth element with (append (list-head lis n) (list-tail (+ n 1)))
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2015-04-02T16:16:26Z Gianormagantrous Googles SRFI-1
2015-04-02T16:18:48Z Gianormagantrous: Thanks saul, but how would I go and implement the list-head and list-tail explicitely? (For pedagogy anyway)
2015-04-02T16:20:39Z Tbone139: as far as practices, I don't think you'd lose any information by calling that function (remove-nth n lst), and it'd be more succinct
2015-04-02T16:21:20Z Gianormagantrous: yes, those are long names
2015-04-02T16:23:03Z Tbone139: list head and list tail - I think that was pretty explicit. You just need to wrap saul's code with your define. Were you asking for general usage?
2015-04-02T16:23:53Z Tbone139: Ah, I see what you meant.
2015-04-02T16:24:19Z Gianormagantrous: ^to build them myself
2015-04-02T16:24:38Z Gianormagantrous: (define list-head …)
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2015-04-02T16:26:40Z saul: list-head --> http://paste.lisp.org/display/146734
2015-04-02T16:27:18Z Gianormagantrous: Thanks saul. Let me digest that now
2015-04-02T16:28:12Z vraid: though not tail recursive
2015-04-02T16:28:56Z saul: The reference implementations are probably better in that regard.
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2015-04-02T16:31:21Z vraid: Gianormagantrous: here is a without-nth example http://codepad.org/cGnMLvmI
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2015-04-02T16:31:53Z Gianormagantrous: wow, lots of stuff I need to lookup in there. Thanks vraid
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2015-04-02T16:34:45Z vraid: what it does really is step through the list, element by element, and rebuild it except for the nth element
2015-04-02T16:34:49Z vraid: then reverse the result
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2015-04-02T16:35:33Z Gianormagantrous: vraid, Why the 'rec' name though.
2015-04-02T16:35:54Z Gianormagantrous: ^what does it stands for?
2015-04-02T16:35:59Z vraid: it's just a name
2015-04-02T16:36:08Z vraid: i often use it for locally recursive functions
2015-04-02T16:36:21Z Gianormagantrous: I see
2015-04-02T16:36:31Z ijp: other common names are loop, recur, step and go
2015-04-02T16:36:46Z wasamasa: could be the name of an apple advertisement tack
2015-04-02T16:36:47Z wasamasa: *track
2015-04-02T16:37:03Z vraid: Gianormagantrous: (let rec ([k 0] [ls ls] [rest '()])   defines a function, (rec k ls rest), and calls it immediately with (rec 0 ls '())
2015-04-02T16:37:45Z Tbone139: Gianormagantrous: out of curiosity, what's been your main learning material?
2015-04-02T16:38:33Z Gianormagantrous: Tbone139, Trial&Error and a good friend of mine
2015-04-02T16:39:11Z Gianormagantrous: few sites, https://projecteuler.net/archives and http://www.plt-scheme.org/docs.html
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2015-04-02T16:42:43Z vraid: Gianormagantrous: with slight modifications you get a sublist function http://codepad.org/e4cSm9FC
2015-04-02T16:42:51Z Gianormagantrous just learned that (list) is (somewhat) equivalent to '()
2015-04-02T16:43:01Z wasamasa: well
2015-04-02T16:43:12Z wasamasa: '() is an empty list as preconstructed by the reader
2015-04-02T16:43:33Z vraid: Gianormagantrous: (list) is a function call that returns '()
2015-04-02T16:43:36Z wasamasa: (list) constructs a new one
2015-04-02T16:43:57Z vraid: Gianormagantrous: sort of how (+) returns 0
2015-04-02T16:44:54Z vraid: my ls and rest parameters should have their names switched. oh well
2015-04-02T16:45:01Z Gianormagantrous: So that why I got ((((mylist)))) so often
2015-04-02T16:45:03Z ijp: wasamasa: for all intents and purposes, there is only one empty list
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2015-04-02T16:45:32Z Gianormagantrous: I was using the (list) function at places it would not be necesary to
2015-04-02T16:45:39Z wasamasa: ijp: and many more filled ones!
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2015-04-02T16:46:00Z wasamasa: ijp: where the difference between using a literal and constructing a new one should become obvious
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2015-04-02T17:08:57Z Gianormagantrous: wow vraid, that (let proc-id ([id init-expr] ...) body ...+) just blown my mind
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2015-04-02T17:11:14Z wasamasa: it's known as named let
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2015-04-02T17:51:03Z Gianormagantrous: Thanks vraid, that (let proc-id ([id init-expr] ...) body ...+) syntax just blown my mind using it recursively.
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2015-04-02T18:31:13Z caleb_smith: yeah, named let is a really nice alternative to an inner lambda that is only defined so you can call it to get recursion started
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2015-04-02T18:32:09Z caleb_smith: Not to criticize but if it's helpful, let-rec is a procedure in some Schemes so using rec as the name in a named let could be a bit confusing
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2015-04-02T18:38:48Z vraid: well, to each their own :)
2015-04-02T18:38:57Z vraid: works for me
2015-04-02T18:40:14Z vraid: Gianormagantrous: no problem. there's a lot more mind blowing stuff to come
2015-04-02T18:43:30Z ijp: it's a good idea to stock up on minds while they are still cheap
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2015-04-02T18:53:43Z Tbone139: Gianormagantrous: that 'stuff to come' is why I'd recommend structured learning, SICP in my case. Scheme's epiphanies are hard to come by through trial-and-error.
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2015-04-02T19:59:27Z mario-goulart: Does anybody have some example code using chibi's http server?
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2015-04-02T20:37:24Z kephra just implemented cond as a macro for my toy lisp, and I noticed that I do not need a special case for "else", because everything that is not #f is else
2015-04-02T20:38:49Z kephra: this is a slight error or my implementation, because an unbound symbol resolves into an unbound symbol, and not in an error
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2015-04-02T20:46:17Z ijp: kephra: so (define else #t)
2015-04-02T20:46:47Z ijp: then you can confuse people by doing (set! else #f) somewhere in your source
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2015-04-02T20:47:42Z kephra: i've fixed the "nor error at unbound environment" ;-)
2015-04-02T20:49:53Z Tbone139: reminds me of (and #t 4) resolving to 4
2015-04-02T20:57:08Z kephra: (define #f 'true) ;;; *lol*
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2015-04-02T21:01:33Z ijp: kephra: that wouldn't work in a reasonable scheme
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2015-04-02T21:02:30Z ijp: I believe I once used a scheme that let you do (define 2 3) (+ 2 2) => 6, but I can't remember which one, or if I've just been telling that story so long I've started to believe it
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2015-04-02T21:04:52Z taylanub: ijp: that actually seems simpler to allow than to forbid, in a totally straightforward implementation (especially meta-circular)
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2015-04-02T21:09:20Z kephra: sounds very forth like, where defined words also have precedence over numbers
2015-04-02T21:09:27Z ijp: taylanub: you need to carefully order your clausees
2015-04-02T21:10:00Z ijp: other than that, it would be about the same
2015-04-02T21:10:03Z Riastradh: ijp: There is a sense in which Fortran was like that...
2015-04-02T21:10:38Z ijp: anyway, true or not, I suspect I'll be telling this story for years to come
2015-04-02T21:10:43Z zacts: is there still a use for fortran today?
2015-04-02T21:11:38Z taylanub: guess:  1. a few numeric calculations that need highest efficiency where it outperforms C,  2. scientists who never switched to an alternative
2015-04-02T21:11:43Z kephra: I guess, I will stick to #t and #f being symbols pointing to a trueAtom falseAtom - but restrict writing to environment to 7.1.1 Lexical structure identifiers
2015-04-02T21:12:37Z zacts: taylanub: ah yeah, I didn't know if fortran really was faster than C
2015-04-02T21:12:48Z ijp: taylanub: for maximal confusion (define (foo bar) 'baz) should bind the list containing the symbols foo and bar to the symbol baz
2015-04-02T21:13:37Z kephra: *lol* @ taylanub
2015-04-02T21:14:07Z kephra: *oups* wrong tab expansion ... meant ijp ;-)
2015-04-02T21:15:09Z kephra: zacts, pythia.kephra.de contains a little bit of FORTRAN code for machine learning
2015-04-02T21:15:17Z zacts: kephra: oh cool
2015-04-02T21:15:39Z zacts: yeah, from what I hear machine learning is really cool, but often times the algorithms are inefficient
2015-04-02T21:16:12Z kephra: but, my projects are often a wild mix, e.g. pythia: java and fortran for machine learning, r for feature extraction, lua as glue language, php for the html UI
2015-04-02T21:16:40Z zacts: kephra: do you use scipy at all?
2015-04-02T21:16:53Z kephra: i dislike python
2015-04-02T21:16:59Z zacts: I don't like python either, personally
2015-04-02T21:17:12Z zacts: and also, I don't like the split between python2 and python3
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2015-04-02T21:18:03Z kephra: python looks like as if the author read 'a little smalltalk' decided that the time for smalltalk is not yet ripe, and wrote a toy language repeating many errors out of the book, e.g. reference counting garbage collection with finalization
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2015-04-02T21:19:03Z kephra: the ref counting slows down python horribly - and well, we know - it does not collect garbage
2015-04-02T21:19:27Z taylanub: doesn't it use a backup tracing collector for cycles?
2015-04-02T21:20:11Z kephra: a tracing collector came later - but Python can not get rid of the ref counting, because of finalization
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2015-04-02T21:25:48Z kephra: btw, progress of the day - got macros working - not hygenic macros yet, but lisp like macros (who are only half as evil as in maclisp, because of lexical scope)
2015-04-02T21:26:50Z kephra: reason is that those kind of macros are wider known (e.g. emacs users), easier to implement ... and if someone really need hygenic macros, its much easier to implement them on top of simple lisp macros, then in javascript ;-)
2015-04-02T21:27:34Z Riastradh: Can't implement hygiene on top of DEFMACRO.
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2015-04-02T21:31:46Z kephra: http://norvig.com/jscheme/mbe.scm <- Norwig did exactly same, Riastradh - so why do you think its impossible?
2015-04-02T21:32:34Z ijp: macro by example isn't hygiene
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2015-04-02T21:34:33Z kephra: oh *blush* where is the difference?
2015-04-02T21:35:45Z Riastradh: (define-syntax push (syntax-rules () ((push x l) (set! l (cons x l]  (let ((pros '(good cheap)) (cons '(bad slow))) (push 'expensive cons) cons)
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2015-04-02T21:52:45Z turbofail: kephra: hygiene means ensuring that the names in code introduced by the macro, and the names in code using the macro don't interfere with each other
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2015-04-02T21:54:06Z turbofail: doing so properly requires keeping track of the current environment that the macro is being expanded in, among other things, something that define-macro won't give you
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2015-04-02T21:59:41Z kephra: turbofail, e.g. in the derived syntax for case, where a trivial implementation my shadow the environment stack, and the nontrivial requires gensym in lisp
2015-04-02T22:01:01Z turbofail: gensym alone can't save you
2015-04-02T22:01:41Z turbofail: like in riastradh's example, if the code that is invoking the macro has bound a variable (in this case `cons') that your expanded code wants to call
2015-04-02T22:02:16Z turbofail: call or reference i mean
2015-04-02T22:08:07Z saul: (define-macro (push x l) (let ((cons cons)) `(set! ,l (,cons ,x ,l))))
2015-04-02T22:08:53Z ijp: saul: that shouldn't work, and even if it did, it would miss the point
2015-04-02T22:10:14Z saul: (let ((pros '(good cheap)) (cons '(bad slow))) (push 'expensive cons) cons) ==> (expensive bad slow)
2015-04-02T22:10:45Z saul: It works in TinyScheme. :-)
2015-04-02T22:11:07Z ijp: not exactly a shining endorsement
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2015-04-02T22:11:47Z turbofail: the macroexpansion of that would be (set! blah (<#procedure cons> 'foo blah))
2015-04-02T22:11:57Z turbofail: which actually works in a surprising number of scheme implementations
2015-04-02T22:12:01Z turbofail: i think racket will let you do it
2015-04-02T22:12:06Z turbofail: but it's still weird
2015-04-02T22:12:30Z saul: I don't have any other Scheme available that implements define-macro.
2015-04-02T22:13:16Z turbofail: most datums in scheme are not supposed to be self-evaluating
2015-04-02T22:13:27Z turbofail: and i'm pretty sure procedure objects aren't supposed to be
2015-04-02T22:14:22Z saul: turbofail, unfortunately in TinyScheme 'set!' is, so the above trick wouldn't work for 'set!' (or 'define' IIRC).
2015-04-02T22:14:43Z kephra: saul, why do you need the (let ((cons cons)) here?
2015-04-02T22:15:09Z turbofail: you wouldn't need the let binding
2015-04-02T22:15:19Z saul: kephra, so the 'cons' isn't evaluated at run time.
2015-04-02T22:15:24Z turbofail: this trick just relies on sticking a procedure object instead of the name
2015-04-02T22:15:37Z turbofail: saul: it wouldn't get evaluated at run time regardless
2015-04-02T22:15:48Z turbofail: the trick here is the `(,cons ...) part
2015-04-02T22:15:59Z kephra: the , also resolves the symbol
2015-04-02T22:16:36Z turbofail: unless tinyscheme is secretly dynamically scoped, which i know it isn't
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2015-04-02T22:17:45Z saul: Aha, I didn't think of that. I stand enlightened.
2015-04-02T22:18:27Z turbofail: hm, guile self-evaluates procedures too
2015-04-02T22:19:21Z turbofail: i could have sworn vectors at least were not supposed to be self-evaluating
2015-04-02T22:19:29Z turbofail: but guile and racket self-evaluate those too
2015-04-02T22:21:18Z turbofail: hm, i guess the standard actually leaves that unspecified
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2015-04-02T23:06:47Z kephra: redefining basics like cons is nasty, but the (,cons ...) trick also works in o3db, because macros are lexical scoped, so its only half as evil as in a maclisp
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2015-04-02T23:17:20Z kephra: btw lexical - still considering environment pruning of a lambda, when storing a lambda into environment
2015-04-02T23:21:29Z kephra: (define leak (lambda (x) (let* ((a (some-big-data x) (b (calc1 a)) (c (calc2 a)) (lambda (foo) (calc3 foo b c)))))
2015-04-02T23:23:41Z kephra: currently the lambda returned from leak still has a=some-big-data in its environment ;-(
2015-04-02T23:25:37Z kephra: pruning of the returned lambda would take place, if I do (let ((foo (leak "data")) ...), when the lambda is stored into the environment
2015-04-02T23:26:16Z kephra: immediate used lambda, e.g. ((leak "data") "foo") wont need pruning
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2015-04-02T23:26:37Z kephra: does this make sense?
2015-04-02T23:28:54Z kephra: perhaps, I just offer a (prune (lambda ...)) special form, for the rare case, where its necessary
2015-04-02T23:29:37Z kephra: *hm* does not even need to be a special form ... a primitive form is enough
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2015-04-02T23:31:54Z turbofail: what if you store the return result in a vector?
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2015-04-02T23:32:07Z turbofail: (vector-set! my-global-vector (leak "data"))
2015-04-02T23:32:18Z turbofail: that's not returning it to the environment, but it'll still have the leak
2015-04-02T23:32:30Z kephra: *true*
2015-04-02T23:32:33Z turbofail: also, requiring people to manually prune their lambdas is madness
2015-04-02T23:32:44Z turbofail: there's a reason why we have garbage collectors
2015-04-02T23:32:51Z kephra: so better either manual prune, or just prune all lambdas
2015-04-02T23:33:32Z turbofail: yeah.  or just not care and let the leak happen
2015-04-02T23:33:47Z turbofail: which is what many interpreters would do
2015-04-02T23:33:57Z kephra: the php approach - the leak ends, if the the page is served ;-(
2015-04-02T23:34:19Z turbofail: heh.  and that approach worked very well for them
2015-04-02T23:34:21Z kephra still uses PHP for most html sites
2015-04-02T23:34:30Z kephra: *blush*
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2015-04-02T23:38:30Z turbofail: pruning wouldn't be a big deal for a compiler
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2015-04-02T23:39:03Z turbofail: which is one reason to consider at least doing a partial "compilation"
2015-04-02T23:40:40Z turbofail: perhaps something similar to what you see in section 4.1.7 of SICP
2015-04-02T23:41:51Z kephra: yeah - some tagging during the reader would speed up pruning to O(N) from O(M+N) ... where N is the number of environement variables required by the lambda, and M the lenght of the S-expression
2015-04-02T23:43:44Z kephra: or just self modifing code tagging of the s-expression containing the lambda, so first pass is O(N+M), and further passes are O(N)
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2015-04-02T23:44:06Z turbofail: you should read that section i mentioned
2015-04-02T23:44:14Z turbofail: http://mitpress.mit.edu/sicp/full-text/book/book-Z-H-26.html#%_sec_4.1.7
2015-04-02T23:44:33Z turbofail: if you do it that way you won't have to re-scan anything at all
2015-04-02T23:45:28Z turbofail: well actually doing it truly right requires using a flat environment representation instead of a linked one
2015-04-02T23:46:06Z turbofail: though that's a worthwhile thing to know about in and of itself
2015-04-02T23:47:19Z kephra: my environment is more like a cactus tree ;-)
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2015-04-03T00:12:07Z kephra: turbofail, just reading that part again - but the analyze in 4.1.7 is doing something completely different
2015-04-03T00:14:09Z turbofail: well it's not doing something completely different, it's just not including an extra step that you want to include
2015-04-03T00:14:24Z turbofail: you would fold this environment pruning bit into the analyze-lambda bit
2015-04-03T00:15:14Z turbofail: but to make it work really efficiently you'd also have to change the environment representation
2015-04-03T00:16:36Z turbofail: basically the thing we're trying to avoid here is having to re-analyze `leak' every time it gets called, when you really only need to analyze it once when it's defined
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2015-04-03T00:18:43Z kephra: i'm not implementing an mceval - but a non recursive parser
2015-04-03T00:21:55Z turbofail: uh what?  it looks a whole lot like you're implementing an interpreter here
2015-04-03T00:23:43Z kephra: yes, but not a recursive mceval like one, but a non recursive parser + interpreter
2015-04-03T00:24:55Z turbofail: the non-recursive nature of it doesn't really matter
2015-04-03T00:25:19Z turbofail: it's still an evaluator, and you can still cache the result of analysis first
2015-04-03T00:26:16Z kephra: yes, and I likely will cache lambda environment pruning hints, if I implement pruning
2015-04-03T00:27:44Z kephra: so creating a lambda is expensive first time (if pruning is turned on), cheaper next time, and perhaps even optional
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2015-04-03T06:26:29Z Tbone139: should this be expected to run 5+ minutes vs. 300ms for the equivalent c# implementation? Am I making a huge efficiency faux pas? Either way, TIA. http://paste.lisp.org/display/146750
2015-04-03T06:31:03Z pjb: It's an infinite loop
2015-04-03T06:31:19Z pjb: You never modify (car p).
2015-04-03T06:32:51Z Tbone139: gah, point taken! Still though, the target should be at (length p) < 60000 and it starts crawling around 5000
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2015-04-03T06:33:52Z pjb: append makes it O(n²)
2015-04-03T06:34:35Z pjb: with the inner loop, O(n³).
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2015-04-03T06:37:52Z Tbone139: Whats the average O on a random list-ref by itself? O(n)?
2015-04-03T06:43:17Z pjb: yes.
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2015-04-03T07:04:43Z Tbone139: Thanks for helping with this. If you'd field one more question, does the c# I'm modeling from also appear to be O(n³) ?
2015-04-03T07:04:54Z Tbone139: https://gist.github.com/anonymous/f280fd2631c38782bc1a
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2015-04-04T00:57:01Z RexButler: Hi Tbone139
2015-04-04T00:57:05Z RexButler: Hi zacts
2015-04-04T01:00:07Z RexButler: Getting for a fun night of scheme!
2015-04-04T01:03:08Z Tbone139: Hello again
2015-04-04T01:03:46Z RexButler: I read thorugh R5RS... with varying levels of comprehension
2015-04-04T01:04:09Z Tbone139: RexButler: just realized I still had this open http://pastebin.com/TCUbFSXB
2015-04-04T01:05:29Z RexButler: Oh, yes.  Thanks.
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2015-04-04T01:15:58Z pjb: RexButler: congratulations.
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2015-04-04T01:23:02Z RexButler: Hmm... maybe I should learn to use emacs.
2015-04-04T01:23:14Z RexButler: Currently using vim
2015-04-04T01:27:48Z RexButler: Why is emacs better for scheme anyways?
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2015-04-04T01:30:19Z tsumetai`: What is vim lacking in the scheme department? (not a vim user)
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2015-04-04T01:32:17Z technomancy: pretty sure there's a paredit implementation at least
2015-04-04T01:32:59Z Tbone139: RexButler: found this tongue-in-cheek http://lh5.ggpht.com/luismbo/SNKf4XeRoVI/AAAAAAAAALA/8RqUG4D9H3E/s800/lisp-and-vim.png
2015-04-04T01:32:59Z rudybot: http://tinyurl.com/6ksknkt
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2015-04-04T01:33:48Z technomancy: there are emacs users who don't know elisp?? ._.
2015-04-04T01:34:14Z technomancy: that's like buying a car and never taking it out of first gear.
2015-04-04T01:35:50Z RexButler: Apparently emacs has some good modes for proof assistants as well
2015-04-04T01:46:13Z sethalves: I don't know elisp, really
2015-04-04T01:46:17Z sethalves: i can cargo-cult as needed
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2015-04-04T02:01:24Z RexButler: Apparently emacs has some good modes for proof assistants as well
2015-04-04T02:01:31Z RexButler: oops, wrong window
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2015-04-04T02:06:15Z RexButler: I use vi, but I don't do much fancy with it.  IE to go back, I just press h instead of doing a backwards search or something fancy like that
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2015-04-04T02:10:45Z RexButler: Question:  What is the best (canonical way) to make a function that maps a pair (x,y) to (g(x,y),h(x,y))... ?
2015-04-04T02:10:54Z RexButler: The way I'm doing it is just with cons, car, and cdr.
2015-04-04T02:16:07Z technomancy: (map (curryr apply xy) (list g h ...)) maybe?
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2015-04-04T03:25:55Z RexButler: Does clumsiness with parens get better with time?  Right now it's just horrible for me.
2015-04-04T03:28:23Z RexButler: To the previous question, I have : (define (map_pair g h) (lambda(z) (cons (g z) (h z))))
2015-04-04T03:31:11Z vraid: it gets better
2015-04-04T03:31:27Z vraid: and there are editors that handle the parentheses for you if you wish to use that
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2015-04-04T03:48:51Z RexButler: Sometimes I wonder if it would be worthwhile to format code so corresponding () are aligned vertically with eachother
2015-04-04T03:49:02Z RexButler: But I never see code in that style, so I guess not...
2015-04-04T03:49:27Z RexButler: It takes up too much space, I suppose
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2015-04-04T03:54:23Z Tbone139: RexButler: your map_pair procedure is currently accepting three external arguments. It would be more-correct to write that as either (define (map_pair g h z) ... or (define map_pair (lambda(g h z) ... which are equivalent to my understanding.
2015-04-04T03:55:00Z tsumetai`: RexButler: There's reading and there is writing. Use whatever makes your life easier at the time. :)
2015-04-04T03:59:07Z RexButler: Tbone139:  If I think of map_pair as a function that returns a function, how should I write it?
2015-04-04T03:59:32Z RexButler: The z is incidental
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2015-04-04T04:01:37Z Tbone139: To me both ways satisfy that description on a visual level. That said, I recommend trying to avoid lambda until SICP explains it more thoroughly.
2015-04-04T04:04:29Z RexButler: I'm probably going to go through HTDP first, then SICP (as soon as I get HTDP)
2015-04-04T04:05:24Z vraid: RexButler: aligning parentheses vertically are usually not the way to do it
2015-04-04T04:05:33Z vraid: good editors will indent the code automatically
2015-04-04T04:05:53Z RexButler: vraid: Yeah, I know.  A little consideration shows it's a bad idea.
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2015-04-04T04:09:09Z pjb: RexButler: just use paredit in emacs.  It deals with parentheses for you.
2015-04-04T04:10:54Z pjb: RexButler: you never see closing parentheses below opening (in non-newbie code), because it is not meaningful.  lisp is basically a Polish notation system (Reverse RPN).  The parentheses are only there to delimit the argument lists, so macros can work without knowing anything about the operators (no need to know priority rules, number of arguments, etc, and bonus: this allows to have variable number of arguments).
2015-04-04T04:11:38Z pjb: RexButler: notice that stillistically, we use dashes instead of underlines to separate words in symbols: map-pair, not map_pair. (One less shift to type ;-))
2015-04-04T04:12:01Z Tbone139: RexButler: I dun goofed, (define (map-pair x y) (lambda(z) ... would be execued as ((map-pair x y) z) instead of (map-pair x y z)
2015-04-04T04:12:42Z RexButler: Tbone139: Yes, that's how I'd like it.
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2015-04-04T04:20:59Z RexButler: Does anyone know the differences between the rules of #lang planet neil/sicp vs #lang racket
2015-04-04T04:22:17Z vraid: there are a lot of differences, sicp is for the book
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2015-04-04T04:31:08Z RexButler: So, what majors do we have in here?
2015-04-04T04:31:13Z RexButler: CS, Math, Physics?
2015-04-04T04:31:16Z RexButler: Philosophy?
2015-04-04T04:31:19Z RexButler: I'm MS Math
2015-04-04T04:31:26Z RexButler: Trying to learn some CS
2015-04-04T04:33:29Z pjb: RexButler: and this is the reason why I use Common Lisp: there's a single CL language.
2015-04-04T04:34:27Z saul: RexButler, if you wish to continue using VIM, there is a paredit version for it: https://bitbucket.org/kovisoft/paredit
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2015-04-04T04:36:09Z RexButler: saul: Thanks
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2015-04-04T04:49:04Z Tbone139: lowly AS CS, math enthusiast
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2015-04-04T04:53:59Z RexButler: I started as a CS major, switched to CS-Math... Then dropped the CS.
2015-04-04T04:54:13Z RexButler: Wanted to become math professor
2015-04-04T04:54:23Z RexButler: Then looped back to being a software engineer
2015-04-04T04:54:31Z RexButler: I program in Scala for my day job
2015-04-04T04:54:59Z pjb: Why did you lose your math professor dream?
2015-04-04T04:55:25Z RexButler: Well, I'm not suited to working 60 hours a week.
2015-04-04T04:55:31Z RexButler: Right now I work closer to 35
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2015-04-04T04:56:12Z pjb: The math professors I know give about 18 hours of lecture, (and have a 36 hours work week).
2015-04-04T04:56:22Z pjb: But you might be in a savage country.
2015-04-04T04:57:29Z RexButler: After tenure, or before?
2015-04-04T04:57:38Z pjb: after :-)
2015-04-04T04:58:59Z RexButler: I was rather unhappy in graduate school, it just didn't work out.
2015-04-04T04:59:17Z RexButler: I was going to focus on commutative algebra, but... my heart wasn't in it
2015-04-04T05:00:12Z RexButler: It works! http://sprunge.us/PTZh
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2015-04-04T05:02:04Z pjb: RexButler: Notice that (lambda (p) (cdr p)) == cdr  You could write: (let (… (m-final cdr)) …)
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2015-04-04T05:08:49Z RexButler: pjb: Yes, by definition.  :_ tx
2015-04-04T05:08:51Z RexButler: :)
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2015-04-04T05:11:16Z RexButler: pjb: Besides that, does it look fairly reasonable?
2015-04-04T05:11:34Z pjb: yes. s/_/-/g and you'll be good.
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2015-04-04T05:19:47Z RexButler: http://sprunge.us/FIUS
2015-04-04T05:23:49Z pjb: Ah, it's much better on the eyes of this lisper :-)
2015-04-04T05:24:21Z pjb: RexButler: one thing I like to do, is to align similar lines.  I find it eases reading (seeing what differs from one line to the other more easily).
2015-04-04T05:26:37Z pjb: http://sprunge.us/GKXF
2015-04-04T05:28:37Z RexButler: Right, more readable.
2015-04-04T05:28:45Z RexButler: Well, I'm off.  Tx all.
2015-04-04T05:29:04Z pjb: Good bye.
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2015-04-04T06:49:02Z xyh: I do not understand Cuckoo hashing, LOOKUP only looks two g, what if a previously inserted key has been kicked out of these two places ? after then LOOKUP can not find it anymore !
2015-04-04T06:49:45Z xyh: * two places
2015-04-04T06:51:32Z pjb: it doesn't stop at two relocations.
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2015-04-04T06:52:00Z pjb: Either the chain of relocations stops, and all is well, or it is an infinite chain and then the hash table is expanded/hash functions are changed.
2015-04-04T06:52:06Z pjb: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cuckoo_hashing
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2015-04-04T06:54:10Z pjb: That doesn't seem a very good hash table scheme…
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2015-04-04T07:20:48Z xyh: pjb: I see, I am learning various kinds of hash table schemes now. the example in wikipedia page is helpful, I should have readed it more carefully, and the concept of "cuckoo graph" looks cool to me :)
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2015-04-04T12:28:54Z Riastradh: pjb: *Every* hash table scheme is not a good hash table scheme for some subuniverses of keys.
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2015-04-04T12:29:50Z pjb: Riastradh: that's true.
2015-04-04T12:30:01Z pjb: It's not a simple problem.
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2015-04-04T14:43:13Z kephra: iirc, one can attack the hash tables of several web softwares to behave O(N) or worse
2015-04-04T14:45:41Z Riastradh: Yes -- naive use of hash tables in internet-facing services is easily vulnerable to algorithm complexity attacks.
2015-04-04T14:45:47Z Riastradh: And there are plenty of examples out there.
2015-04-04T14:47:33Z wasamasa: hmm
2015-04-04T14:47:48Z wasamasa: that must be why I get to see the use of hash tables so rarely in lisp code
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2015-04-04T14:48:50Z Riastradh: So rarely?  They're pretty common in the Lisp world.
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2015-04-04T14:49:42Z tsumetai`: i really like alists.
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2015-04-04T14:58:21Z technomancy: maybe if we had convenient non-quoting literal syntax we'd see more of them
2015-04-04T15:01:08Z wasamasa: Riastradh: at least in elisp code
2015-04-04T15:01:18Z wasamasa: Riastradh: the scheme I've read so far was mostly alists
2015-04-04T15:01:48Z Riastradh: % git grep -i 'make-[-a-z0-9]*hash-table' . | wc -l 187
2015-04-04T15:01:54Z Riastradh: eh
2015-04-04T15:01:58Z Riastradh: % git grep -i 'make-[-a-z0-9]*hash-table' . | wc -l
2015-04-04T15:02:00Z Riastradh:      187
2015-04-04T15:02:02Z Riastradh: That's in MIT Scheme.
2015-04-04T15:02:50Z Riastradh: About 50 of those are in the implementation of hash tables.
2015-04-04T15:02:54Z Riastradh: The rest are uses.
2015-04-04T15:03:07Z wasamasa: in emacs it is 5059 for assoc, 470 for gethash
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2015-04-04T15:04:37Z wasamasa: anyhow, my point is that I'd rather think of attacking hash table implementations in non-lispy languages
2015-04-04T15:05:21Z Riastradh: Only because there are far more fruitful attack surfaces, not because vulnerable hash tables aren't popular in Lisp.
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2015-04-05T01:18:12Z t4nk199: hi
2015-04-05T01:18:53Z t4nk199: wait, how did this name specifically get assigned to me
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2015-04-05T01:20:59Z t4nk199: What compiler/interpreter would you recommend to someone with very little programming experience that wants to learn scheme?
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2015-04-05T01:29:30Z t4nk199: seriously, this is extremely frustrating. I know quite a bit about logic and lambda calculus and I just want to learn to use scheme
2015-04-05T01:30:05Z t4nk199: but it's like, nowhere is it explained how you actually just technically use any of the compilers that is comrehensible to people who dont already know
2015-04-05T01:31:02Z xyh: which compilers ?
2015-04-05T01:31:12Z t4nk199: I'm sorry to say but I find the way naieves are dealt with in the online programming community just extremely demeaning
2015-04-05T01:31:31Z davexunit: t4nk199: think of Scheme implementations more like a family of closely related, but different, languages.
2015-04-05T01:31:47Z davexunit: and try reading this: https://wingolog.org/archives/2013/01/07/an-opinionated-guide-to-scheme-implementations
2015-04-05T01:31:48Z rudybot: http://tinyurl.com/q669vlj
2015-04-05T01:33:34Z t4nk199: whow, ok... yes,
2015-04-05T01:35:00Z t4nk199: how about the "mental block" where you get tons of tutorials for "idiots" where you get to the point where it instructs you to "simply save this to a file and then use load <filename>" and apparently noone thinks it worth while to even explain what directory you have to save/load such files from and you spend hours looking for just that bit of info
2015-04-05T01:35:15Z t4nk199: like could I speak to someone with a functioning theory of mind, or something
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2015-04-05T01:37:27Z xyh: t4nk199: try emacs :: http://www.gnu.org/software/emacs/
2015-04-05T01:37:32Z xyh: and :: http://www.gnu.org/software/emacs/tour/
2015-04-05T01:38:15Z technomancy: emacs might not be the best for someone frustrated at how arcane stuff is?
2015-04-05T01:38:32Z technomancy: I'd start with drracket instead.
2015-04-05T01:40:43Z t4nk199: ok, so, this "beginners tutorial" http://www.shido.info/lisp/idx_scm_e.html tells me to install "MIT/GNU Scheme because it is easy to install and it has high performance", which I did, and what I get when I open it looks nothing like the picture in the ensuing tutorial,
2015-04-05T01:41:53Z t4nk199: and frankly I just dont see how even to use this MIT/GNU scheme program, like even make it interpret any script, and when I control-h-t for tutorial it's "corrupted" or something
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2015-04-05T01:42:53Z t4nk199: I guess since this tutorial was created the good people at the internet division of the american military have decided it was too user friendly
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2015-04-05T01:43:49Z t4nk199: I have also tried chicken scheme but I just do not see how I am supposed to know what folder I am supposed to load files from with the load <filename> command
2015-04-05T01:44:15Z technomancy: t4nk199: MIT's docs probably are written for experienced programmers. I'd recommend racket for a beginner. http://htdp.org is the best book for learning programming I've ever read by far.
2015-04-05T01:45:34Z t4nk199: technomancy: ok so yeah, I was beginning to suspect as much. But this is the kind of thing you have to deal with as a beginner, you know... but ok... Apparently this means I will be forced to learn a dialect that has some specific purpose as compared to other dialects?
2015-04-05T01:45:48Z technomancy: t4nk199: of course
2015-04-05T01:45:54Z t4nk199: like apparently with every of those scheme interpreting applications goes a whole different dialect?
2015-04-05T01:46:32Z technomancy: "Scheme" refers to a standards document; a standards document can't run programs.
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2015-04-05T01:47:31Z t4nk199: you mean the r5rs thing, right?
2015-04-05T01:47:34Z technomancy: yeah
2015-04-05T01:47:39Z technomancy: racket is pretty general-purpose though
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2015-04-05T01:48:40Z t4nk199: Well, if I had any option as to what dialect I'd learn, then, or whatever.. The reason I want to learn scheme is in a sense mostly educational, I suppose. I want to know about principles underlying how computer programs work, hence my studying lambda calculus before even becoming a programmer
2015-04-05T01:49:46Z technomancy: cool, so you would definitely want to start with HTDP or SICP. (books)
2015-04-05T01:49:46Z t4nk199: I feel like I really want to take an extremely bottom up approach to learning how to program. So, is there some dialect that more or less suits that purpose better than others?
2015-04-05T01:50:09Z technomancy: HTDP is more accessible; uses graphics and stuff. it's written by the racket authors.
2015-04-05T01:51:08Z t4nk199: and both are sort of lambda related, I suppose... I can see a lambda featured on an image of one of the books' covers
2015-04-05T01:51:36Z technomancy: SICP is a bit more "distinguished"; it's written as a university textbook
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2015-04-05T01:52:02Z t4nk199: I dont suppose that will be a problem unless I really lack some kind of entry terms
2015-04-05T01:52:42Z technomancy: as a rule, textbooks have better "getting-started" usability than compilers
2015-04-05T01:52:53Z technomancy: because they've seen extensive "user-testing" on freshmen
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2015-04-05T01:55:50Z t4nk199: well yeah, but of course in compilers and interpreters you can actually do the coding, but ok
2015-04-05T01:56:48Z t4nk199: I also dont see how much you need to know about programming per se for something like finding a loading path to be transparent
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2015-04-05T01:58:26Z technomancy: drracket seems to do a good job of not bogging you down with non-essentials
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2015-04-05T02:00:25Z technomancy: (there may be other schemes that do a good job at this too; racket is just the one I'm most familiar with)
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2015-04-05T02:02:22Z t4nk199: and, I wont be missing too much of the minimalism I could otherwise be enjoying or whatever? I mean, can I just use it to experiment with lambda expressions? I'd be happy with that
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2015-04-05T02:04:15Z technomancy: if you don't enjoy fiddling with the load path then the minimalism of smaller schemes will definitely not appeal to you
2015-04-05T02:05:06Z technomancy: "minimalism" in software usually means "close to the level of the CPU" which means "doesn't have all the convenient affordances you've gotten used to"
2015-04-05T02:05:38Z t4nk199: Its not that I wouldnt enjoy it on the contrary, one of the reasons Im taking this up is because I hope that I will eventually familiarize myself with stuff like environment variables, which is now just something exotic to me
2015-04-05T02:06:09Z t4nk199: the problem is just very simply that I start reading "tutorials for beginners" who leave you completely in the dark about stuff like this
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2015-04-05T02:07:23Z technomancy: sure; you can work your way up to that
2015-04-05T02:08:51Z t4nk199: yeah sure, but I keep bumping into this when I try to cut an inroad into this deeper stuff involving computers, you get presented with a "guide for dummies" and basically it's full of this stuff you need to know to carry on that you couldnt possibly know as a beginner
2015-04-05T02:09:34Z technomancy: yes, but http://htdp.org is not like that
2015-04-05T02:09:45Z technomancy: I agree that it's common and that it sucks, but it's not universal.
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2015-04-05T02:17:19Z t4nk199: technomancy: so I can choose a language, actually... nice. in drracket I mean. So, what do you suggest? I select one of those "teaching languages"?
2015-04-05T02:18:12Z skelternet: t4nk199 my exploration of scheme sent me after a folk song about the Boston transit system.  Good luck on your journey.
2015-04-05T02:19:09Z technomancy: t4nk199: if you work through the exercises in HTDP, they start with Beginner Student Language
2015-04-05T02:19:16Z t4nk199: skelternet: Im not sure I follow you but thank you I guess
2015-04-05T02:20:41Z t4nk199: technomancy: oh, ok. nice.
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2015-04-05T11:31:47Z needhelp: Hi you all
2015-04-05T11:31:57Z needhelp: need quick help
2015-04-05T11:32:08Z needhelp: catching parameters
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2015-04-05T11:32:29Z Guest65268: anyone there?
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2015-04-05T12:02:41Z ilammy: Guest65268: yup
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2015-04-05T12:53:30Z LeoNerd: http://microscheme.org/
2015-04-05T12:53:38Z LeoNerd: I'm just gonna leave that here :)
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2015-04-05T13:09:05Z kephra: *oh* nice, LeoNerd - that Scheme compiles into AVR, but 8kb of memory bytecode, environment, stacks and buffers is not that much
2015-04-05T13:10:02Z kephra: the last time I code with similar (16kb per script) memory restrictions was for Secondlife
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2015-04-05T13:18:18Z kephra: no GC in this microscheme limits its use even more
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2015-04-05T13:38:38Z technomancy: it's definitely a subset of scheme
2015-04-05T13:38:44Z technomancy: but it's a lot nicer than having to write C
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2015-04-05T13:40:54Z davexunit: just joined.  are we talking about microscheme?
2015-04-05T13:41:00Z davexunit: I've been meaning to take it for a spin
2015-04-05T13:41:25Z davexunit: I'd like to rewrite some arcade stick controller firmware with it.
2015-04-05T13:43:35Z technomancy: yeah
2015-04-05T13:44:45Z davexunit: technomancy: I've also been meaning to check out the keyborad firmware you wrote
2015-04-05T13:44:50Z davexunit: looks really neat
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2015-04-05T14:01:45Z technomancy: davexunit: thanks... it's not really functional yet though
2015-04-05T14:01:53Z technomancy: working on part 2 of the article
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2015-04-05T16:29:08Z zero_coder: (define (increment_by_1 num)
2015-04-05T16:29:12Z zero_coder:   (let ((incr 1))
2015-04-05T16:29:12Z zero_coder:     ((+ incr num))))		
2015-04-05T16:29:19Z zero_coder: whats wrong with this ^^ ?
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2015-04-05T16:30:19Z ijp: zero_coder: the same thing that's wrong with (3)
2015-04-05T16:30:35Z vanila: you should call it increment-by-1 not increment_by_1
2015-04-05T16:30:55Z ijp flays vanila
2015-04-05T16:31:08Z vanila: secondly ((+ incr num)) is too many brackets, just use (+ incr num)
2015-04-05T16:31:12Z zero_coder: ijp, didnt get you
2015-04-05T16:31:26Z zero_coder: vanila, let me try vanilla
2015-04-05T16:31:27Z ijp: zero_coder: parentheses matter, that second pair means "call the result as a function with no arguments"
2015-04-05T16:31:41Z ijp: rudybot: (+ 1 1)
2015-04-05T16:31:43Z rudybot: ijp: your sandbox is ready
2015-04-05T16:31:43Z rudybot: ijp: ; Value: 2
2015-04-05T16:31:47Z ijp: rudybot: ((+ 1 1))
2015-04-05T16:31:47Z rudybot: ijp: error: application: not a procedure; <NEWLINE>  expected a procedure that can be applied to arguments <NEWLINE>   given: 2 <NEWLINE>   arguments...: [none]
2015-04-05T16:32:13Z zero_coder: lemme try
2015-04-05T16:32:16Z ijp: 2, returned by (+ 1 1) is not a procedure, so (2) will error, so ((+ 1 1)) errors
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2015-04-05T16:33:30Z zero_coder: ((+  1 1 )) returns a procedure?
2015-04-05T16:33:44Z ijp: no
2015-04-05T16:34:05Z ijp: it doesn't return anything, it errors
2015-04-05T16:35:22Z zero_coder: ijp, what is a good resource to learn scheme
2015-04-05T16:37:00Z vanila: good morning wingo :)
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2015-04-05T16:41:35Z alezost: zero_coder: read the topic of this channel: there are some resources
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2015-04-05T17:45:52Z Tbone139: looking at quines, is there a DrRacket language where (quote quote) gives quote instead of 'quote ?
2015-04-05T17:48:09Z wasamasa: sounds like cheating
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2015-04-05T18:45:11Z zero_coder: (define strings '(string man))
2015-04-05T18:45:27Z zero_coder: (string=? "string" (car strings))
2015-04-05T18:45:38Z zero_coder: why this doesnt work ^^
2015-04-05T18:45:45Z vanila: those are symbols
2015-04-05T18:45:48Z ijp: because strings is not a list of strings
2015-04-05T18:45:50Z vanila: (define strings '("string" "man"))
2015-04-05T18:45:58Z vanila: do this to make strings
2015-04-05T18:46:04Z ijp: rudybot: (string? 'string)
2015-04-05T18:46:05Z rudybot: ijp: ; Value: #f
2015-04-05T18:49:04Z zero_coder: vanila, symbols?
2015-04-05T18:49:21Z vanila: yes, the atomic element of lisp is symbols
2015-04-05T18:49:45Z zero_coder: vanila, but how is it different from string?
2015-04-05T18:50:20Z vanila: a symbol is atomic and you can check if they are equal very quickly
2015-04-05T18:50:51Z vanila: a string is more like a vector of characters -- it takes longer to see if longer strings are equal
2015-04-05T18:51:25Z zero_coder: i think i lost myself
2015-04-05T18:51:40Z vanila: put simple:   symbols and strings are difficult
2015-04-05T18:51:46Z vanila: put simple:   symbols and strings are different*
2015-04-05T18:52:00Z tsumetai: A symbol is one whole indivisible thing.
2015-04-05T18:52:06Z vanila: (define my-symbol 'foo) (define my-string "foo")
2015-04-05T18:52:18Z vanila: (equal? my-symbol my-string) ;=> #f
2015-04-05T18:52:44Z zero_coder: vanila, okay
2015-04-05T18:52:50Z pjb: You could do: (string=? "string" (symbol-name (car strings)))
2015-04-05T18:53:24Z zero_coder: pjb, whats symbol-name?
2015-04-05T18:53:43Z pjb: Sorry, I mean symbol->string
2015-04-05T18:53:48Z pjb:  (string=? "string" (symbol->string (car strings)))
2015-04-05T18:55:43Z zero_coder: pjb, got it
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2015-04-05T18:55:55Z zero_coder: (define ls ( 1 2 3)) ;doesnt work
2015-04-05T18:56:05Z pjb: of course, 1 is not a procedure.
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2015-04-05T18:56:20Z zero_coder: (define ls '(1 2 3 )) ; does work
2015-04-05T18:56:23Z pjb: (define ls (quote (1 2 3)))
2015-04-05T18:56:46Z pjb: that's the difference between code and data.
2015-04-05T18:57:13Z zero_coder: pjb, i think i need to read something proper
2015-04-05T18:57:28Z pjb: Surely.
2015-04-05T18:57:41Z vanila: https://mitpress.mit.edu/sicp/full-text/book/book.html
2015-04-05T18:57:44Z pjb: I would advice "The Little Schemer", or htdp.
2015-04-05T18:57:44Z vanila: you can read this book
2015-04-05T18:58:14Z zero_coder: okay
2015-04-05T18:58:18Z zero_coder: let me look
2015-04-05T18:58:57Z zero_coder: thanks . let me give it a try
2015-04-05T18:59:31Z zero_coder: can i ask , what you guys code with scheme?
2015-04-05T19:00:04Z pjb: Me? Nothing. I use Common Lisp to write my programs.
2015-04-05T19:00:31Z zero_coder: pjb, they are almost the same right
2015-04-05T19:00:38Z pjb: "almost".
2015-04-05T19:03:02Z zero_coder: anyway thanks guys
2015-04-05T19:03:11Z zero_coder: i will read. and hang around
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2015-04-05T19:19:31Z taylanub: zero_coder: maybe http://taylanub.github.io/doc/lisp-rundown.txt can help with understanding the "two layered" nature of Lisp data and source code.  or it might be badly written; I'm not a teacher.
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2015-04-05T19:22:29Z zero_coder: taylanub, i will read it . thanks :)
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2015-04-05T19:45:13Z zero_coder: what is the difference between racket and scheme
2015-04-05T19:45:15Z zero_coder: ?
2015-04-05T19:45:56Z vanila: racket is much more complex
2015-04-05T19:46:04Z vanila: they developed the language much much further, adding new features
2015-04-05T19:46:20Z vanila: it's really good but it's a little different from scheme
2015-04-05T19:46:23Z vraid: pairs/lists are immutable in racket
2015-04-05T19:46:46Z vraid: although there is more than one scheme standard
2015-04-05T19:47:16Z zero_coder: well, i was reading htdp and it uses racket vanila
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2015-04-05T20:31:47Z kephra: zero_coder, on first glance on source: Racket is for Scheme, what Closure is for Lisp - you have a more "modern" and pragmatic attempt, and both show the funny idea that lambda formals and let bindings are in [] and not in ()
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2015-04-05T20:55:18Z ijp: the reason for that is different in racket and clojure
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2015-04-05T22:09:27Z kephra: ijp, btw can you explain why racket and/or clojure used this [] syntax?
2015-04-05T22:09:42Z kephra: or point to urls explaining it
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2015-04-05T22:16:47Z wasamasa: by replacing () with [] you can save a pair of ()!
2015-04-05T22:18:02Z kephra: (let ([x 5]) x) is much more complex to type then (let ((x 5)) x), especially when on an international keyboard
2015-04-05T22:18:16Z vraid: newer language have taken drastic measures to adapt to the worldwide parenthesis shortage
2015-04-05T22:18:37Z kephra: also ) highlights the matching ( in most editors, so just ))) till you hit the (define and you are fine
2015-04-05T22:18:44Z vraid: kephra: fortunately, racket lets you use () just as well
2015-04-05T22:19:04Z vraid: even {} will do, they are all interchangeable, as long as they match up to a closing parens of the corresponding type
2015-04-05T22:19:06Z kephra: vraid, nice - did not tested racket yet, just browsed the docu/website
2015-04-05T22:19:22Z wasamasa: clojure should allow for (let [x 5] x) though
2015-04-05T22:19:24Z vraid: it's just a visual cue as to where the closing parens is
2015-04-05T22:19:29Z wasamasa: which is what I meant earlier with my comment
2015-04-05T22:20:34Z ijp: kephra: it has been a semi-controversial convention for the past 20 or so years, (started at Indiana AFAICT) to group "pairs of clauses" like cond/case/match-clauses let-bindings lists, etc. on the theory that it is more readable
2015-04-05T22:21:22Z kephra: vraid, compare readablility of http://kephra.de/o3proto/books.scm and http://kephra.de/o3proto/demo.json.txt ... imho the Scheme code is much less cluttered by funny characters
2015-04-05T22:21:58Z vraid: oh i agree, json is unreadable
2015-04-05T22:22:14Z vraid: easy to parse though
2015-04-05T22:22:21Z kephra: both express same semantics - and the lisp code is much more difficult to type
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2015-04-05T22:23:55Z vraid: it's easier to type json code with a macro in scheme
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2015-04-05T22:24:03Z kephra: ;-)
2015-04-05T22:24:48Z kephra: better dont talk about xexpr vs html
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2015-04-06T15:14:57Z Tbone139: msg nickserv identify 04013872
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2015-04-06T15:25:00Z zacts: lol
2015-04-06T15:25:11Z zacts: Tbone139: your password is known to everyone now
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2015-04-06T15:26:35Z Tbone139: that was fun, apparently sendpass is obsolete
2015-04-06T15:27:13Z zacts: at least it wasn't a goofy password
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2015-04-06T15:50:38Z saul: Does anybody know where I can obtain a pretty printer for Scheme?
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2015-04-06T16:01:24Z vanila: most scheme implementations have one - a lot steal marc feeleys code but I'm not saying you should
2015-04-06T16:01:45Z vanila: http://www.mathematik.uni-muenchen.de/~logik/download/minlog/src/pp-sexp.scm
2015-04-06T16:01:51Z rudybot: http://tinyurl.com/k8pgkh4
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2015-04-06T16:22:39Z vanila: is it posible to make larceny exit on error? rather than dropping into debugger
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2015-04-06T17:51:07Z lritter: guise
2015-04-06T17:51:19Z lritter: what's a nice editor for s-expressions?
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2015-04-06T17:54:12Z serhart: lritter: emacs + paredit mode is pretty common
2015-04-06T17:54:27Z lritter: hehe
2015-04-06T17:54:31Z lritter: this seems to be the universal answer
2015-04-06T17:54:34Z lritter: a bit frightening ;)
2015-04-06T17:54:41Z Riastradh: Why's that frightening?
2015-04-06T17:54:53Z lritter: because i like to have options
2015-04-06T17:55:08Z lritter: and, well, emacs doesn't strike me as particularly slick... yeah, i'm superficial like that
2015-04-06T17:55:17Z lritter: for the record, i consider SciTE as slick ;)
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2015-04-06T17:55:23Z Riastradh: Never heard of that.
2015-04-06T17:55:36Z lritter: standalone editor for the scintilla editing component
2015-04-06T17:56:23Z lritter: or is there a sort of emacs skin that makes the whole thing look like sublime edit ;)
2015-04-06T17:56:42Z lritter: or am i simply looking at a horribly outdated version?
2015-04-06T17:56:45Z Riastradh: Never heard of scintilla either...
2015-04-06T17:56:57Z lritter: scintilla is used in notepad++ and afaik forked in gedit
2015-04-06T17:57:06Z lritter: but might be mistaken there
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2015-04-06T18:06:25Z vanila: (equal? (closure 'x) (closure 'x)) ;=> #f
2015-04-06T18:06:31Z vanila: records don't compare equal?
2015-04-06T18:06:40Z vanila: this makes things testing very hard
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2015-04-06T18:10:06Z vanila: damn it's unspecified..
2015-04-06T18:10:38Z vanila: this is really bad isn't it?
2015-04-06T18:11:34Z vanila: there's no way to check if objects are equal if they might have records inside them
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2015-04-06T18:27:13Z taylanub: I'm pretty sure records compare with equal? ...
2015-04-06T18:27:41Z vanila: That's what everyone would expect
2015-04-06T18:28:09Z vanila: but this is what R7RS says http://i.imgur.com/s64piOn.png
2015-04-06T18:28:19Z vanila: and there was a vote about it too http://trac.sacrideo.us/wg/wiki/WG1Ballot6Results#a393Definingrecordequality
2015-04-06T18:28:21Z rudybot: http://tinyurl.com/otbda5z
2015-04-06T18:28:36Z vanila: im really disappointed, this means i cannot test my code -- so i have to just comment out my test case...
2015-04-06T18:28:44Z taylanub: argh, underspecification
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2015-04-06T18:29:06Z taylanub: vanila: you can implement a per-type equal? for your record types
2015-04-06T18:29:21Z vanila: it's not possible to do that in a general way
2015-04-06T18:29:34Z vanila: I'll have to "register" each record I create into some global table
2015-04-06T18:30:16Z taylanub: if you know in advance what record type you'll receive, you can just manually use the right procedure
2015-04-06T18:31:28Z vanila: http://lpaste.net/130256
2015-04-06T18:31:32Z vanila: i use this macro to test things
2015-04-06T18:31:45Z vanila: i'll have to make a new version which accepts a custom EQUAL? predicate
2015-04-06T18:32:00Z vanila: and then implement my own equal? which uses a global table which record metadata in it :/
2015-04-06T18:32:13Z Riastradh: (test-check "wotsit" (quagga->list (quagga)) '(quagga ...))
2015-04-06T18:32:21Z Riastradh: (or, `->sexp')
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2015-04-06T18:33:20Z taylanub: vanila: any particular reason you're not using SRFI-64?
2015-04-06T18:34:18Z vanila: just my preference
2015-04-06T18:35:51Z vanila: I feel like this record thing is really ridiculous :/
2015-04-06T18:36:00Z vanila: I have a few problems with R7RS and it's disappointing me a lot
2015-04-06T18:36:39Z Riastradh: Every language, every system, every tool has flaws and will be disappointing sometimes.
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2015-04-06T18:39:09Z zacts: except for the abacus
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2015-04-06T18:43:32Z vanila: im making my own new scheme standard
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2015-04-06T18:44:26Z Riastradh: I suggest focussing on real working code -- useful applications.
2015-04-06T18:45:02Z vanila: all the problems i have came up because of deficiencies in R7RS
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2015-04-06T18:49:40Z taylanub: R6RS actually seems to imply that equal? on records should work like eqv?.  that's pretty bad.  Guile seems to ignore this, at least, and has sensible equal? behavior on records: (equal? (make-foo 'x) (make-foo 'x)) => #t
2015-04-06T18:49:58Z taylanub: I wonder what other implementations do
2015-04-06T18:50:06Z vanila: larceny gives #f
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2015-04-06T18:50:34Z vanila: sagittarius gives #f too
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2015-04-06T18:51:08Z vanila: chicken with r7rs egg gives #t
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2015-04-06T18:54:41Z Riastradh: Just define a map to S-expressions and assert it matches that.
2015-04-06T18:55:03Z vanila: I can do that but i have to get the information about records somehow
2015-04-06T18:55:06Z vanila: e.g. I can do
2015-04-06T18:55:28Z vanila:     (define-record-type <box> (box v) box? (v box-value))
2015-04-06T18:55:28Z vanila:     (register-record! box? box (lambda (b) (list (box-value b))))
2015-04-06T18:55:38Z vanila: and register-record! holds metadata to do things
2015-04-06T18:56:03Z Riastradh: No need for such metaprogramming.
2015-04-06T18:56:19Z vanila: really?
2015-04-06T18:56:26Z vanila: I don't know hwo to do it without
2015-04-06T18:56:33Z Riastradh: What's the test you're trying to write?
2015-04-06T18:56:54Z vanila: well ok so i implement a logic programming language
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2015-04-06T18:57:13Z vanila: and i added support for unification on records
2015-04-06T18:57:39Z vanila: to test this I get results like ((#<record ...>) (#<record ...>))
2015-04-06T18:59:14Z vanila: the usual way to test is check if the result is EQUAL? what i expect
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2015-04-06T18:59:42Z vanila: so i need to change my whole test setup to take a predicate and then implement a EQUAL-WITH-RECORDS?
2015-04-06T19:00:03Z Riastradh: ...or write a procedure to map objects in your domain to S-expressions for presentation, and compare to that.
2015-04-06T19:00:28Z vanila: thats the same thing?
2015-04-06T19:00:33Z cojy_: it looks like that's what the register-record! does
2015-04-06T19:00:40Z vanila: (define (equal-with-records? x y) (equal? (f x) (f y)))
2015-04-06T19:00:58Z cojy_:  (register-record! box? box (lambda (b) (list (box-value b)))) the last argument looks like record->sexp
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2015-04-06T19:04:43Z vanila: its j ust mapping to s-expressions might conflate things that weren't originally equal
2015-04-06T19:04:59Z vanila: e.g. '(closure x) might be considered equal to #<closure> (that holds x)
2015-04-06T19:06:27Z cojy_: you could prefix the result with gensym
2015-04-06T19:06:38Z vanila: ah yeah
2015-04-06T19:06:44Z vanila: il hae to put  agensym into the record metadata table
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2015-04-06T19:07:03Z vanila: overall this sort of thing 'works' but it's annoying because it only works for records that have been 'registered'
2015-04-06T19:07:09Z Riastradh: It's always useful to have an unambiguous presentation format anyway.
2015-04-06T19:07:44Z vanila: I don't understand the point having = EQ? EQV? EQUAL?  etc.
2015-04-06T19:08:05Z zacts: vanila: would you just overload =
2015-04-06T19:08:21Z vanila: well i'd use = for numbers
2015-04-06T19:08:23Z vanila: eq? for pointers
2015-04-06T19:08:26Z zacts: ah yeah
2015-04-06T19:08:27Z vanila: eqv? no idea
2015-04-06T19:08:32Z vanila: equal? for structural equality
2015-04-06T19:08:49Z vanila: but records not comparing equal means equal? falls back to eqv? and is unspecified and its just ... what is going on
2015-04-06T19:09:24Z taylanub: equal? is for lax structural equality, useful in some arbitrary contexts.  eqv? approximates "operational equivalence", which you can use for e.g. memoization; it tests whether the two things it's given are simply *the same*.  eq? is an optimization hack over eqv?, that works by saying "it might break on characters, bignums, etc." which just so happen to be things that usually don't fit in a
2015-04-06T19:09:24Z taylanub: pointer-sized value
2015-04-06T19:09:54Z taylanub: = is mathematic numerical equality.  (= 1 1.0), but (not (eqv? 1 1.0)).
2015-04-06T19:10:22Z taylanub: because 1 and 1.0 *can* lead to different program behavior (hence not operationally equivalent), although they're numerically equal.
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2015-04-06T19:48:59Z kephra: eq? means the same, eqv? is equal, and equal? is similar (or deep equal? comparison)
2015-04-06T19:49:43Z vanila: hthen why are records not equal if their fields are equal?
2015-04-06T19:50:26Z kephra: might depend on the record implementation
2015-04-06T19:51:31Z kephra: " Equal? recursively compares the contents of pairs, vectors, and strings, applying eqv? on other objects such as numbers and symbols. "
2015-04-06T19:51:50Z kephra: strictly speaking records of same values do not need to be 'equal?'
2015-04-06T19:52:05Z vanila: don't you think that's wrong? it surprised me and maek my program very hard to write
2015-04-06T19:52:49Z kephra: i would prefer if equal does in deep record comparison, if a scheme offers records
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2015-04-06T19:53:06Z vanila: metoo :(
2015-04-06T19:53:17Z vanila: they voted against it for R7RS though
2015-04-06T19:53:35Z kephra: on the other hand side equal? can reach its limits, e.g. when comparing lambdas
2015-04-06T19:54:05Z vanila: yeah thats fair
2015-04-06T19:54:50Z kephra: (equal? (lambda (a b) (+ a b)) (lambda (c d) (+ d c))) ;;; <- smoking head 😃
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2015-04-06T19:55:33Z vanila: haha
2015-04-06T19:55:38Z kephra is sure someone in CompSci would raise his fingers, claiming that this is solvable
2015-04-06T19:56:05Z wasamasa: of course
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2015-04-06T19:56:15Z wasamasa: just rename all variables consistently in both versions
2015-04-06T19:56:21Z kephra points to macsyma and similar solvers
2015-04-06T19:57:10Z wasamasa: then you'd obtain (lambda (foo bar) (+ foo bar)) for both
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2015-04-06T19:57:29Z wasamasa: so, structural similiarity should be solvable
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2015-04-06T20:13:04Z kephra: btw, progress on my toy scheme: mount-uri-scheme, open-query-file, send-query-port, close-query-port and improved error handling for the case that an error happens in the http response handler
2015-04-06T20:13:50Z vanila: nice :)
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2015-04-06T20:14:57Z kephra: mount-uri-scheme defines how to access an uri like "a:some-file.txt" ... translating it into "files/some-file.txt" on get and "http://some-host:some-port/files/some-file.txt" for put
2015-04-06T20:16:35Z kephra: a query file like an output file, but post and not put the request: so I first write into the query, then send it, read its results, and close it like an input file
2015-04-06T20:17:20Z kephra: (mount-uri-scheme 'db '( query "http://some-server/some-service/"))
2015-04-06T20:17:40Z kephra: and you can access "db:get-customers"
2015-04-06T20:19:04Z kephra: I think I also need string files, and xexpr/DOM files
2015-04-06T20:19:20Z kephra: the later would read or write into browser window
2015-04-06T20:24:45Z kephra: (with-output-to-file "dom://div[@id='foo']" (write '((h1 ((class "bigheader")) "Hello world") (p "I like scheme"))))
2015-04-06T20:25:00Z vanila: wow :O
2015-04-06T20:25:05Z vanila: that's pretty crazy!
2015-04-06T20:25:08Z vanila: i really like it
2015-04-06T20:25:10Z kephra: 😃
2015-04-06T20:25:18Z kephra: input in same way
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2015-04-06T20:29:56Z kephra: its a bit like the Unix version of "if I had a hammer" song - lets use the file abstraction, if we have already it
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2015-04-06T20:30:25Z vanila nod :)
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2015-04-07T00:31:08Z rudybot: la la la
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2015-04-07T00:44:44Z xyh: how to view exit code on windows? in cmd.exe or powershell ?
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2015-04-07T02:08:42Z kaiyin: what does ... mean here?
2015-04-07T02:08:55Z kaiyin: it's from this page btw: http://www.ccs.neu.edu/home/matthias/HtDP2e/part_one.html
2015-04-07T02:09:09Z kaiyin: (define SPACE (rectangle ... WHEEL-RADIUS ... "white"))
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2015-04-07T02:10:45Z RexButler: That's a big page...
2015-04-07T02:11:25Z RexButler: Where does (define SPACE (rectangle etc... show up?
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2015-04-07T02:15:04Z cmhobbs: is there an emacs package that'll let me browse theseb SRFIs short of pointing eww at srfi.schemers.org?
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2015-04-07T02:17:09Z ijp: the package that exists basically just sends you to that url, iirc
2015-04-07T02:18:39Z cmhobbs: ha
2015-04-07T02:18:44Z cmhobbs: i figured.  just checking
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2015-04-07T02:23:00Z Tbone139: kaiyin: By context I'd try (rectangle wheel-distance wheel-radius solid white)
2015-04-07T02:24:01Z kaiyin: Tbone139: ok, thanks
2015-04-07T02:25:01Z cmhobbs: ijp, upon inspection of the source of srfi.el, you're absolutely right
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2015-04-07T03:00:04Z RexButler: Does HTDP have good exercises like SICP?  How do the exercises compare?
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2015-04-07T03:03:51Z RexButler: zacts:
2015-04-07T03:03:57Z RexButler: Tbone139:
2015-04-07T03:04:01Z RexButler: ?
2015-04-07T03:05:05Z Tbone139: I've only done SICP unforts.
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2015-04-07T03:11:02Z RexButler: BTW, Tbone139, when you did the Project Euler problems did you try to do it in functional style, w.o. mutable variables, etc?
2015-04-07T03:11:49Z RexButler: RexButler
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2015-04-07T03:12:40Z Tbone139: Funny you should ask, I'm just now implementing my first non-functional code since starting; a prime number sieve.
2015-04-07T03:13:19Z RexButler: The prime sieve is a tough one to do functionally
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2015-04-07T03:14:10Z RexButler: Don't you need a prime number sieve for one of the earliest problems?
2015-04-07T03:15:25Z Tbone139: Yep, my functional prime-finder was doing fine until now, working with a 1,000,000 element list takes too long
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2015-04-07T03:16:40Z Tbone139: To be honest I have a feeling prob 70 doesn't need primes up to 1M, but this will be nice to have.
2015-04-07T03:19:46Z RexButler: I may have to try some Project Euler problems using Scheme
2015-04-07T03:21:02Z RexButler: Tbone139: How long does it take you to solve each problem?
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2015-04-07T03:22:06Z Tbone139: I was cruising through the early problems a couple per hour, but some of these 50+ are taking me a few hours
2015-04-07T03:22:34Z RexButler: Yeah, I'm definitely not that fast
2015-04-07T03:23:37Z Tbone139: I think you can be, use scheme enough and the parenthesis fade from your awareness
2015-04-07T03:24:33Z RexButler: What's your day job?  Student?
2015-04-07T03:24:56Z RexButler: (I'm definitely getting better at fixing (if not avoiding) paren. problems)
2015-04-07T03:26:18Z Tbone139: I was a 'configuration technician', copying software to PCs in bulk and shipping them to client companies. Now I'm moved to AZ and looking.
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2015-04-07T03:27:41Z RexButler: You sound smart... you looking for a software dev job?
2015-04-07T03:27:56Z RexButler: UT here, btw
2015-04-07T03:28:25Z Tbone139: I've been applying as such in addition to 'desktop support' as a fallback
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2015-04-07T03:29:58Z RexButler: I was doing PHP for work (yuck) but now I use scala (yay!)
2015-04-07T03:30:29Z RexButler: Nay I never touch PHP again, in my life.  Ever.
2015-04-07T03:31:15Z Tbone139: Here's hoping not!
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2015-04-07T03:40:43Z RexButler: Tbone139: What other programming languages do you like.  (I mean, there aren't exactly a lot of scheme jobs)
2015-04-07T03:41:38Z Tbone139: True, I could settle in with java but I'd rather do something C++ with Qt
2015-04-07T03:43:50Z RexButler: I never learned C++... complicated language.
2015-04-07T03:44:08Z RexButler: If you can do it well, though, more power to you.
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2015-04-07T04:58:16Z RexButler: Ugh I don't like it when racket doesn't give line numbers for errors.
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2015-04-07T04:58:59Z hypermagic: hello my friends
2015-04-07T05:00:18Z hypermagic: what do you think about r language? s language?  http://cran.r-project.org/
2015-04-07T05:01:03Z RexButler: Why do you ask?  Scheme and R are apples and oranges in a lot of ways... hard to compare.
2015-04-07T05:02:53Z RexButler: Both are good, but...
2015-04-07T05:03:32Z hypermagic: because i would think that R language creators were missing some feature from S, this is why they made it
2015-04-07T05:04:03Z hypermagic: i don't know how is it superior yet
2015-04-07T05:04:46Z RexButler: I don't know about S.  Haven't heard about it as much.
2015-04-07T05:05:00Z RexButler: THen again, this is the scheme channel, barely know anything about R
2015-04-07T05:05:08Z hypermagic: S is a scheme
2015-04-07T05:07:09Z RexButler: but R is not?
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2015-04-07T05:07:52Z hypermagic: well to be correct
2015-04-07T05:07:59Z hypermagic: from here  http://cran.r-project.org/
2015-04-07T05:08:14Z hypermagic: The design of R has been heavily influenced by two existing languages: Becker, Chambers & Wilks’ S (see What is S?) and Sussman’s Scheme.
2015-04-07T05:08:43Z hypermagic: "Whereas the resulting language is very similar in appearance to S, the underlying implementation and semantics are derived from Scheme."
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2015-04-07T05:15:01Z RexButler: Hmm... I don't know.  You may be asking the wrong crowd.
2015-04-07T05:16:07Z hypermagic: somebody probably have used R too
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2015-04-07T05:21:52Z zacts: why did they go backwards from S -> R?
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2015-04-07T05:22:59Z RexButler: well, later folks
2015-04-07T05:23:21Z Tbone139: adieu
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2015-04-07T09:46:22Z antoineB: hello, does there any plan to use in future rXrs to have positional information when using syntax transformer? like syntax object in racket
2015-04-07T09:53:15Z taylanub: I don't know what you mean with positional information, but R6RS specifies `syntax-case' which is very powerful
2015-04-07T09:55:42Z antoineB: i mean line, column and offset where there appear in the pre-expand source code
2015-04-07T09:56:52Z antoineB: so you can have produce your own error message in your macro like 'expect yadayada get abc line X'
2015-04-07T09:56:55Z taylanub: oh I see.  that's not in R6RS I think, and I don't know of any such SRFI either...
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2015-04-07T10:00:15Z antoineB: i don't think it could be done with a srfi
2015-04-07T10:00:48Z antoineB: it need to be done by the scheme implementation
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2015-04-07T10:45:11Z contrapunctus: o/
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2015-04-07T10:51:05Z contrapunctus: In a Scheme program I'm writing, a recursive function has five fixed parameters, and needs two more - the first one is required when it is called the first time, and the second one on the subsequent recursive calls. Both arguments are two different lists, but as things stand there's no reliable/efficient way of programmatically knowing which list is which.
2015-04-07T10:51:17Z contrapunctus: * Chicken Scheme
2015-04-07T10:51:38Z contrapunctus: One way I can think of is to always pass both of these lists as a dotted pair, the first one always as the first element and the second one always as the second. Is there a better way?
2015-04-07T10:52:30Z contrapunctus: (ah, missing context - I'm currently passing both through an optional parameter...)
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2015-04-07T11:10:04Z taylanub: antoineB: SRFI aren't libraries (only some can be implemented as such).  but they're often the most portable way to do something (not as often as one might wish, but still).
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2015-04-07T11:12:46Z contrapunctus: sorry, disconnected (any responses?)
2015-04-07T11:13:50Z taylanub: contrapunctus: often one defines an internal function that takes an additional "seed" argument, for when defining a tail-recursive function
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2015-04-07T11:21:52Z contrapunctus: oh, hey, taylanub . Thanks.
2015-04-07T11:27:13Z wasamasa: one also uses named lets
2015-04-07T11:27:49Z taylanub: indeed, that's probably cleaner
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2015-04-07T11:40:21Z kaiyin: https://gist.github.com/kindlychung/892c3fd9d15b0d4c0666 where does this program go wrong?
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2015-04-07T11:42:36Z contrapunctus: Hey, wasamasa . Cool, will do.
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2015-04-07T11:43:50Z taylanub: kaiyin: you close a paranthesis too much at '"red"))'
2015-04-07T11:44:26Z kaiyin: ah i ee.
2015-04-07T11:44:27Z taylanub: the line should be '(place-image (circle 5 "solid" "red") x y ws))', so you pass 4 arguments to 'place-image'
2015-04-07T11:44:30Z kaiyin: i see.
2015-04-07T11:44:36Z kaiyin: thanks a lot!
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2015-04-07T11:45:06Z taylanub: np.  I merely deduced this from the error message BTW.
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2015-04-07T11:45:36Z kaiyin: cool.
2015-04-07T11:45:38Z taylanub: "arity mismatch" is abstract mumbo jumbo for "wrong number of arguments passed to function"
2015-04-07T11:45:50Z taylanub: well, it actually explains that in English...
2015-04-07T11:45:55Z contrapunctus: lol
2015-04-07T11:46:04Z taylanub: error messages are sometimes intimidating but one should try to understand them
2015-04-07T11:46:30Z kaiyin: taylanub: yes, I will pay more attention.
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2015-04-07T12:13:29Z kaiyin: how do you express a negate a number?
2015-04-07T12:13:40Z taylanub: (- x)
2015-04-07T12:13:42Z kaiyin: sorry, negate a number
2015-04-07T12:13:46Z kaiyin: ok
2015-04-07T12:16:28Z kaiyin: how do you divide integers? for example, I want to get 3 out of (div-op 10 3)
2015-04-07T12:17:10Z pjb: kaiyin: ambiguous.
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2015-04-07T12:17:47Z kaiyin: pjb: just like the // operator in python.
2015-04-07T12:17:53Z pjb: kaiyin: the catalog of standard procedures is given by http://www.schemers.org/Documents/Standards/R5RS/HTML/
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2015-04-07T12:19:36Z taylanub: kaiyin: what does python's // do?  there's a couple integer division operators in Scheme; one of them probably does what you want.
2015-04-07T12:20:28Z kaiyin: taylanub: suppose x = q*a + r, then x // a returns q
2015-04-07T12:20:55Z kaiyin: where r is the remainder 0 <= r < a
2015-04-07T12:21:23Z taylanub: see page 37 of R7RS
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2015-04-07T12:25:45Z taylanub: long story short you want either floor-quotinent or truncate-quotinent.  R5RS has just 'quotinent' which is apparently an alias to 'truncate-quotinent' in R7RS.
2015-04-07T12:26:03Z pjb: quotient
2015-04-07T12:26:16Z taylanub: indeed, s/quotinent/quotient/g
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2015-04-07T12:31:00Z kaiyin: taylanub: great, exactly what i was looking for.
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2015-04-08T02:50:03Z RexButler: Yay it works: http://sprunge.us/FgFj
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2015-04-08T02:50:57Z RexButler: Hmm... what to try next?
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2015-04-08T02:55:06Z RexButler: zacts:
2015-04-08T02:55:14Z RexButler: Tbone139:
2015-04-08T02:55:18Z RexButler: You aroound?
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2015-04-08T03:07:17Z Tbone139: RexButler: am here
2015-04-08T03:08:32Z RexButler: Tbone139: Just checking
2015-04-08T03:08:35Z RexButler: :)
2015-04-08T03:09:07Z Tbone139: heh, alright then. Was working on a sudoku solver for Euler earlier.
2015-04-08T03:09:35Z Tbone139: nice bisect implementation, btw!
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2015-04-08T03:11:17Z RexButler: I copied the one out of the book last night
2015-04-08T03:11:24Z RexButler: This one I did myself
2015-04-08T03:11:33Z RexButler: Slowly I am getting better
2015-04-08T03:12:01Z Tbone139: by the way, neil/sicp has (zero?) already
2015-04-08T03:12:08Z RexButler: oh okay, tx
2015-04-08T03:14:25Z Tbone139: (positive?) and (negative?) too
2015-04-08T03:18:00Z RexButler: I don't know how neil/sicp is specified, besides that its the flavor of scheme associated with the book sicp
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2015-04-08T03:27:42Z RexButler: Where can I figure out the differences between #lang scheme, #lang racket, and #lang planet neil/sicp ???
2015-04-08T03:28:50Z vanila: scheme and sicp are similar, minimal languages close to R5RS scheme
2015-04-08T03:29:05Z vanila: racket is a larger more complex designed language that builds from scheme
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2015-04-08T03:32:33Z RexButler: exact specs or descriptions would be nice
2015-04-08T03:32:53Z vanila: google it
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2015-04-08T13:29:40Z cky2: taylanub: I don't think civodul would approve of you calling yourself guix. ;-)
2015-04-08T13:30:14Z taylanub: cky2: was for something like a joke in #guix actually :-)
2015-04-08T13:30:20Z cky2: leppie: Your ironscheme.net site is busted :'(
2015-04-08T13:30:34Z taylanub: (more precisely, the channel bot was accidentally told to deliver a message to the nick "guix," so I thought I'd clear the entry)
2015-04-08T13:30:53Z cky2: taylanub: Hahaha.
2015-04-08T13:31:45Z wasamasa: ironscheme.net is hosted on ironscheme?
2015-04-08T13:31:48Z wasamasa: how... unexpected
2015-04-08T13:32:26Z cky2: Lol.
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2015-04-08T14:00:08Z leppie: cky2: http://ironscheme.net/blog works, so does http://eval.ironscheme.net/
2015-04-08T14:00:33Z leppie: and yes, it runs on IronScheme :D
2015-04-08T14:01:27Z leppie: I think the code is very outdated/out-of-sync on ironscheme.net
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2015-04-08T14:03:55Z leppie: 2011 to be precise O_O
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2015-04-08T14:05:59Z cky2: leppie: I actually need access to http://ironscheme.net/doc
2015-04-08T14:06:15Z cky2: Oh look, there's a badkins!
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2015-04-08T14:06:30Z cky2: (I mostly know your name from the Triangle devs Slack.)
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2015-04-08T14:08:58Z leppie: cky2: trying to do it from fresh now
2015-04-08T14:09:19Z leppie: cky2: WTF is the 'Triangle devs Slack'?
2015-04-08T14:10:24Z cky2: leppie: Triangle == the Raleigh-Durham area in North Carolina (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Research_Triangle). There is a Triangle devs Slack instance where Triangle devs hang out, including badkins.
2015-04-08T14:11:05Z leppie: oh ;p
2015-04-08T14:12:02Z badkins: howdy cky2
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2015-04-08T14:12:10Z cky2: badkins: Heya!
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2015-04-08T14:24:12Z cky2: leppie: While you're fixing the IronScheme site, do you have another site for the documentation that works?
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2015-04-08T14:29:08Z leppie: cky2: it is not really docs, just API listing
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2015-04-08T14:37:24Z leppie: something is very wrong ;p
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2015-04-08T14:45:50Z cky2: leppie: :'(
2015-04-08T14:46:25Z leppie: no idea why  it not working.... cky2
2015-04-08T14:46:37Z cky2: Still :'(
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2015-04-08T15:52:28Z leppie: cky2: Hosting provider is funny, works perfectly on dev machine
2015-04-08T15:53:13Z leppie: The test files work on hosted server, but rest wont work...
2015-04-08T15:53:54Z cky2: Interesting.
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2015-04-08T15:54:08Z leppie: actually, got a hint now
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2015-04-08T16:26:08Z leppie: screw this, I give up
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2015-04-08T16:28:46Z cky2: leppie: Poor you. :'(
2015-04-08T16:29:28Z leppie: cky2: read the bloody source ;p
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2015-04-08T16:29:52Z leppie: cky2: there are quite a bit of info on the codeplex site
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2015-04-08T16:31:22Z cky2: Good enough for me. I got my sample code to work anyway. :-P
2015-04-08T16:31:31Z cky2: http://eval.ironscheme.net/?id=143 if you're curious.
2015-04-08T16:31:55Z leppie: cky2 :)
2015-04-08T16:33:28Z leppie: cky2: if you doing interop, the (ironscheme clr shorthand) library might be useful
2015-04-08T16:34:44Z leppie: cky2: https://xacc.wordpress.com/2009/08/21/ironscheme-clr-shorthand/ (and have a look at discussions on codeplex, also good info)
2015-04-08T16:35:15Z cky2 reads
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2015-04-08T16:39:06Z leppie: cky2: unfortunately it has no support for generic methods, generic types might work
2015-04-08T16:39:31Z cky2: Scheme is a little too untyped for generic anything to work well, IMO.
2015-04-08T16:39:50Z cky2: Unless you're using a erasure-generics platform like JVM.
2015-04-08T16:40:15Z cky2: That's the only upside I know about erasure generics: it's easier to implement dynamic languages in. ;-)
2015-04-08T16:40:39Z leppie: clr-call supports almost all ways you need to call it, but it becomes rather explicit, also I cant recall exactly how I implemented it ;p
2015-04-08T16:42:07Z leppie: cky2: At the end of the day, writing a small C# wrapper lib gets the job done quicker and less painful
2015-04-08T16:42:41Z cky2: But C# wrapper lib can't be used in an online REPL.
2015-04-08T16:42:52Z cky2: I just wanted an easy installation-free way to test stuff out.
2015-04-08T16:43:08Z cky2: like RackPaste but capable of accessing .NET stuff.
2015-04-08T16:43:17Z cky2: s/RackPaste/PasteRack/
2015-04-08T16:43:35Z leppie: cky2 :) I do the same to test some .NET stuff
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2015-04-08T16:51:00Z kaiyin: what is wrong with this program? https://gist.github.com/kindlychung/2d1bd67df5c984dbdcf6  I did everything according to the documentation, but it seems something remains undefined.
2015-04-08T16:53:29Z leppie: kaiyin: missing (require racket/draw) ?
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2015-04-08T16:53:47Z kaiyin: that's imported in 2htdp/images
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2015-04-08T19:58:40Z Tbone139: kaiyin: stumbling around w/ google and racket, it seems putting (only-in racket/draw make-bitmap %bitmap) under (require) patches the %bitmap error specifically, but then it errors on ["png/alpha"...
2015-04-08T19:59:38Z kaiyin: I have given up already, thanks, pal. :)
2015-04-08T20:00:21Z tsumetai: heh
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2015-04-08T22:12:35Z kephra: *w00t* progress of my toy scheme - I have read tables working - so I'm close to reader macros
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2015-04-08T23:04:50Z ilammy: Duh.. found another issue in Chibi. Now it seems I have broken its thread scheduler.
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2015-04-08T23:32:47Z foof: ilammy: quite possible - please file a bug :)
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2015-04-09T14:55:16Z vanila: hi
2015-04-09T14:55:39Z vanila: how do I inspect the compiled code from larceny?
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2015-04-09T14:57:35Z vanila: I tried doing compile313 then assemble313 then disassemble-file but it gave errors
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2015-04-09T15:39:39Z vanila: what modern/maintained scheme compilers do good optimization?
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2015-04-09T15:42:34Z theseb: chicken?
2015-04-09T15:44:28Z vanila: yeah i tried chicken and larceny already :)
2015-04-09T15:45:25Z theseb: vanila: so what's the problem?
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2015-04-09T15:46:04Z taylanub: I heard good things about Gambit and Bigloo IIRC
2015-04-09T15:46:08Z vanila: no problem really but i made a scheme macro that does some operations i was hoping might be optimized away at compile time... but no compiler i've seen can do it
2015-04-09T15:46:19Z vanila: ill try those two now
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2015-04-09T15:46:46Z taylanub: vanila: out of sheer curiosity, might I see the code?
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2015-04-09T15:47:09Z vanila: sure! http://lpaste.net/130433
2015-04-09T15:47:28Z vanila: basically i want the for-each to disappear.. giving (print "one") (print "three") (print "two")
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2015-04-09T15:49:19Z ecraven: vanila: I don't have time to look into this now, but couldn't you write a macro that fully expands this? (not sure whether a hygienic one works)
2015-04-09T15:50:07Z vanila: ecraven, I don't think you can actually without code-walking which would not be able to interact with other macros
2015-04-09T15:50:34Z vanila: not sure though, if there is an alternative way it would be very nice to see
2015-04-09T15:51:43Z taylanub: yeah, seems pretty hard.  procedural macros would solve the issue I think.
2015-04-09T15:54:14Z taylanub: hm, seems difficult as well
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2015-04-09T15:58:51Z vanila: oh! yeah
2015-04-09T15:59:03Z vanila: sometimes to keep in mind is that it is statically known in this case
2015-04-09T15:59:06Z vanila: but it wont always be
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2015-04-09T15:59:29Z taylanub: hmm, sure about that?
2015-04-09T15:59:30Z vanila: if you did (if something (defer x) x)  say
2015-04-09T15:59:37Z taylanub: oh ...
2015-04-09T15:59:56Z taylanub: indeed, it cannot be solved in a generic way then
2015-04-09T16:00:22Z taylanub: what I had in mind would always defer x in that case (and optionally also eval it directly)
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2015-04-09T17:11:12Z FracV: Is it defined somewhere that paren types have to match?
2015-04-09T17:11:29Z FracV: i.e. that [+ 2 3) isn't valid?
2015-04-09T17:11:38Z vanila: only round brackets are part of scheme standards
2015-04-09T17:11:44Z taylanub: FracV: you mean in R6RS?  I don't know but if not it's probably highly implied.
2015-04-09T17:11:53Z vanila: who ever is adding [] will have their own law
2015-04-09T17:12:02Z taylanub: vanila: R6RS allows [] in place of ().  (maybe it was just an appendix, but it's somewhere in there)
2015-04-09T17:12:13Z taylanub double-checks
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2015-04-09T17:12:30Z taylanub: Appendix C of R6RS
2015-04-09T17:13:02Z taylanub: oh, nope, that appendix is a usage recommendation; the equivalence of () and [] is in the document itself I guess  *searches*
2015-04-09T17:13:08Z FracV: They're not mentioned in R5RS at all?
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2015-04-09T17:13:20Z vanila: no
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2015-04-09T17:14:32Z taylanub: R6RS section 4.3 shows that balanced () and balanced [] can be used equivalently
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2015-04-09T17:15:09Z taylanub: FracV: so, yes, per R6RS, [+ 2 3) is invalid.
2015-04-09T17:15:19Z FracV: Looking at 4.3 now
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2015-04-09T17:20:12Z FracV: Yeah, 4.3.2 is explicit about it
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2015-04-09T17:48:27Z kaiyin: how do you express something like this: (map print ((f1) (f2) (f3))) ?
2015-04-09T17:48:42Z vanila: (map print (list (f1) (f2) (f3)))
2015-04-09T17:48:44Z kaiyin: f1 f2 f3 are functions that return an int, for example.
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2015-04-09T17:53:39Z pjb: kaiyin: in (map print ((f1) (f2) (f3))) f1 must be a function that returns a function that takes two arguments and that returns a list.
2015-04-09T17:53:46Z pjb: kaiyin: there's no way out of that.
2015-04-09T17:55:28Z pjb: for example: (let ((f2 (lambda () 42)) (f3 (lambda () "hello")) (f1 (lambda () list)))  (map print ((f1) (f2) (f3)))) --> (42 "hello")
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2015-04-09T17:58:47Z saul: Is there a standard function for returning the fractional part of a number? Basically, (lambda (x) (- x (truncate x))
2015-04-09T17:59:53Z pjb: I guess, one would have to read the standard to know for sure.
2015-04-09T18:00:30Z saul: I realize it's trivial but it is part of tutorial where having to define the function would be a distraction that is almost as complicated as the subject of the tutelage.
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2015-04-09T18:21:39Z pjb: It's not trivial, it's being lazy.
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2015-04-09T19:16:35Z vanila: how do I inspect compiler output of bigloo?
2015-04-09T19:16:45Z vanila: i want to see if it's inlining certain stuff and a a.out isnt to useful for that
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2015-04-09T20:00:11Z kaiyin: pjb, sorry, I was cooking.
2015-04-09T20:00:28Z kaiyin: I decided to use display instead.
2015-04-09T20:00:32Z kaiyin: and it worked well.
2015-04-09T20:00:59Z kaiyin: https://gist.github.com/kindlychung/67f3bb8e51a3b5f3cab2 where did this function go wrong here?
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2015-04-09T20:04:43Z kaiyin: ok, solved it. apparently p' is not a good var name, i need to use something like p1.
2015-04-09T20:17:13Z pjb: or p*
2015-04-09T20:17:46Z pjb: p\' or |p'| may work, depending on the implementation.
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2015-04-09T20:20:03Z kaiyin: ok
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2015-04-09T20:24:20Z kaiyin: I have no idea why this thing works: https://gist.github.com/kindlychung/67f3bb8e51a3b5f3cab2#file-fib1-rkt
2015-04-09T20:24:58Z kaiyin: suppose we do (fib-iter 1 0 0 1 9), then 9 is not zero, and not even
2015-04-09T20:25:15Z vanila: it will go to else case on line 11
2015-04-09T20:26:08Z vanila: this code is a bit obfuscated, but it is doing matrix multiplication
2015-04-09T20:26:21Z kaiyin: vanila:  then the next iteration is (fib-iter 1 0 0 1 8)
2015-04-09T20:26:57Z kaiyin: which implies (fib-iter 1 0 0 1 8) == (fib-iter 1 0 0 1 9)
2015-04-09T20:27:03Z kaiyin: and that's not true...
2015-04-09T20:28:24Z vanila: I think its
2015-04-09T20:28:29Z vanila: (fib-iter 1 0 0 1 8) == (fib-iter 1 1 0 1 9)
2015-04-09T20:28:54Z vanila: you could add
2015-04-09T20:29:01Z vanila: (print (list 'fib-iter a b p q count))
2015-04-09T20:29:13Z vanila: to the start of the function, to see what is done
2015-04-09T20:31:00Z kaiyin: i see, i was confused about the order of p and q.
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2015-04-09T20:35:49Z kaiyin: how do you convert something like (in-range 10) into a list?
2015-04-09T20:36:12Z kaiyin: so that i can use for-each func on it?
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2015-04-09T20:39:03Z kaiyin: for examle, what is wrong with this? https://gist.github.com/kindlychung/67f3bb8e51a3b5f3cab2#file-fib2-rkt
2015-04-09T20:39:18Z kaiyin: I am getting this error: stream-for-each: contract violation   expected: stream?   given: #<void>
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2015-04-09T20:41:43Z ecraven: kaiyin: the result of the inner stream-for-each is void
2015-04-09T20:41:49Z ecraven: for-each doesn't actually return anything useful
2015-04-09T20:41:53Z ecraven: look at map / stream-map
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2015-04-09T20:45:12Z kaiyin: ok, i solved it, using for: https://gist.github.com/kindlychung/67f3bb8e51a3b5f3cab2#file-fib3-rkt
2015-04-09T20:45:20Z kaiyin: thanks, ecraven
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2015-04-09T22:07:56Z kaiyin: how do i get the (runtime) function appeared in sicp?
2015-04-09T22:08:02Z kaiyin: I'm using racket.
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2015-04-09T22:14:07Z kongtomorrow: what runtime function? I went through SICP and don't remember that
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2015-04-09T22:17:49Z kongtomorrow: kaiyin: ah, I see. anyway, it's defined if you use the SICP language pack for Racket. http://planet.racket-lang.org/package-source/neil/sicp.plt/1/17/planet-docs/sicp/index.html
2015-04-09T22:17:50Z rudybot: http://tinyurl.com/chyqo85
2015-04-09T22:19:31Z kaiyin: ok, thanks.
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2015-04-22T15:26:27Z ravior_: I have a problem regarding the following code
2015-04-22T15:26:29Z ravior_: http://pastebin.com/p3urw7Bb
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2015-04-22T15:27:20Z ravior_: I made a function that replaces all symbols into the number 0. The code works, but at the end of the list, everythime there is . #<void>. I can't figure where I'm messing it up...
2015-04-22T15:30:47Z taylanub: ravior_: that implementation isn't very good.  lists in lisp/scheme are linked lists of pairs, meaning that reaching the <n>th element in it takes <n> steps, i.e. O(n) time complexity
2015-04-22T15:31:57Z taylanub: ravior_: an idiomatic and more performant implementation would just go through the linked list, accumulating the result (and usually one ends up with an inverted linked list, which one can reverse in an additional operation at the end)
2015-04-22T15:35:23Z ravior_: taylanub, I'm quite the beginner at scheme/lisp, so unfortunatelly I cut every corner I could so I could make something functional. The interesting part is that those 2 values shouldn't be shown
2015-04-22T15:35:25Z taylanub: e.g. http://sprunge.us/FCEh (untested)
2015-04-22T15:35:31Z ravior_: from my understanding at least
2015-04-22T15:36:26Z taylanub: ravior_: the reason seems to be that you call (parse ...) one last time at the end where the 'if' expression has its test return false and so the expression returns #<void> (in your scheme implementation; per standard it's unspecified what it returns)
2015-04-22T15:37:16Z ravior_: taylanub, Oh... I see...
2015-04-22T15:39:03Z kephra: ravior_, I would also prefer if done as: (define (nonchar in) (letrec ((out '()) (parse (lambda (in) ...
2015-04-22T15:41:26Z kephra: or even (define (nonchar in) (let ((out '())) (foreach (lambda ...) in)) out)
2015-04-22T15:42:12Z kephra: scheme is like Perl - there is more then one way to do it
2015-04-22T15:42:24Z kephra: but ... Scheme is more readable, imho
2015-04-22T15:42:56Z LeoNerd: Readable is in the eye of the Reader :)
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2015-04-22T15:43:57Z kephra: e.g. a typical case where Lisp is more readable is the ))))) at end of something
2015-04-22T15:44:45Z kephra: in any other language this would be } ] ) }; } } ... and span several lines
2015-04-22T15:45:26Z LeoNerd: I'm not sure I see the difference
2015-04-22T15:45:48Z LeoNerd: Whether it spans one line or several is almost always a freeform code style decision by the programmer - most languages don't care
2015-04-22T15:46:32Z LeoNerd: As to the different delimiting pairs; I tend to find that useful - blocks of code finish with } whereas nested expressions finish with ) so the different styles can help you keep track and remember which is which
2015-04-22T15:47:06Z taylanub: all moot with Paredit and a little practice in reading and writing sexpr code IMO
2015-04-22T15:47:24Z kephra: a scheme assoc of lists is much easier to read and write then a json hash of arrays
2015-04-22T15:48:31Z kephra: http://kephra.de/o3proto/demo.json.txt & http://o3db.com/proto/demo.scm.txt <- e.g. compare those two files, basically coding same semantics
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2015-04-22T15:49:08Z kephra: the scheme code is more readable, imho
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2015-04-22T15:49:44Z kephra: all this syntaxtic sugar of json is cancer to readablitity
2015-04-22T15:50:30Z ravior_: taylanub, I think I've understood your code
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2015-04-22T15:51:34Z ravior_: but i think there's a slight error in it. (loop (cdr l3) - Won't this send the function into an infinite loop?
2015-04-22T15:52:31Z ravior_: taylanub, I've tried running it but it didn't seem to work.
2015-04-22T15:52:38Z wasamasa: only if l3 is infinite (or a ring?)
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2015-04-22T15:58:53Z ravior_: http://pastebin.com/mJCsTyQc
2015-04-22T16:00:34Z ravior_: In this case I think that call should send me in a loop. I might have understood this wrong, so I'll apologize in advance.
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2015-04-22T16:07:13Z wasamasa: uh, these closing parens that are on their own lines
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2015-04-22T17:06:33Z chazu: noob question here: is the keyword-argument functionality in chicken scheme part of an SRFI or is it part of R5RS or R7RS?
2015-04-22T17:08:01Z taylanub: chazu: keyword args were in some SRFI IIRC, but no RnRS
2015-04-22T17:08:21Z taylanub: from googling "keyword argument srfi": http://srfi.schemers.org/srfi-88/srfi-88.html
2015-04-22T17:09:19Z taylanub: ravior_: yeah I meant to type (cdr rest)
2015-04-22T17:09:45Z chazu: taylanub: excellent, thanks. I thought as much. I saw several SRFIs that mention option parsing, thanks =D
2015-04-22T17:09:58Z taylanub: ravior_: and the last word should be "result" not "rest"
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2015-04-22T17:10:48Z taylanub: chazu: R7RS standardized `case-lambda' which is pretty neat (but still leaves optional and keyword arguments to be desired)
2015-04-22T17:12:05Z chazu: yeah i saw case-lambda, which is pretty. oddly the chicken scheme manual doesnt mention SRFI 88 as being implemented...maybe theirs diverges slightly from the spec.
2015-04-22T17:12:38Z chazu: taylanub: in any case this will help me implement my own when the time comes :P
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2015-04-22T17:14:35Z ravior_: taylanub, You are right. Thanks for the help. I got it now.
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2015-04-22T17:17:18Z taylanub: ravior_: by the way, even more idiomatic code would really just use 'map' here
2015-04-22T17:18:23Z taylanub: http://sprunge.us/QNGT
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2015-04-22T19:15:54Z dxtr: Isn't there something like C structs? I'm still learning and I remember seeing but I can't remember the name
2015-04-22T19:20:05Z fds: A record?
2015-04-22T19:20:11Z fds: http://www.scheme.com/tspl4/records.html
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2015-04-22T19:21:50Z dxtr: fds: Yes!
2015-04-22T19:23:00Z dxtr: Thank you
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2015-04-22T19:26:25Z fds: It's my pleasure.
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2015-04-22T19:34:27Z dxtr: fds: Should I use define-record or define-record-type? Is there a "best practice"?
2015-04-22T19:38:08Z contrapunctus: dxtr: I was right here a week or so ago :\ Depends on what implementation you're using, or so I've gathered.
2015-04-22T19:39:23Z fds: dxtr: As contrapunctus said, there could be differences between implementations, but SRFI-9 says define-record type.
2015-04-22T19:39:34Z fds: dxtr: This page has an example: https://www.gnu.org/software/guile/manual/html_node/SRFI_002d9-Records.html
2015-04-22T19:39:35Z rudybot: http://tinyurl.com/pyoou7v
2015-04-22T19:40:14Z contrapunctus: dxtr: I'm using Chicken Scheme, and it has (or such is the impression I get) about four (maybe more) record type implementations. I'm using define-record-type . Note - for Chicken, this is /not/ the same as what is described in TSPL4.
2015-04-22T19:40:45Z contrapunctus: using * the built-in define-record-type
2015-04-22T19:41:19Z fds: Oops, I meant define-record-type of course.
2015-04-22T19:47:17Z sethalves: define-record-type is the one in r7rs
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2015-04-22T20:02:47Z dxtr: Oh right
2015-04-22T20:09:21Z contrapunctus: but...I'm not using the r7rs extension o_o'
2015-04-22T20:09:50Z sethalves: I just meant that if you were struggling to pick one, you could make a portability argument in favor of r7rs
2015-04-22T20:10:00Z contrapunctus: ah. I see :D
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2015-04-22T23:09:14Z Pixel_Outlaw: Hello folks.
2015-04-22T23:09:53Z Pixel_Outlaw: Anyone manage to trick your employer into letting you use lisp/scheme?
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2015-04-22T23:12:45Z pjb: Pixel_Outlaw: really, it's much easier to start up your own company.
2015-04-22T23:14:18Z Pixel_Outlaw: I'd imagine. :) Currently not employed, making games in my free time between interviews.
2015-04-22T23:16:40Z pjb: Instead of interview, you would have to look for "customers" for whom you can design a solution to their problem.  Then get some advance payment, and hire a lisper to do the job (so you have time to find the next customer). Repeat.  Once you have 4 or 5 such projects running, you can hire a sales person to do this job for you, and you can fall back to lisp programming for the following projects with your team.
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2015-04-23T01:01:02Z Pixel_Outlaw: I'm getting user input and wondering if (read) is not the proper call. It seems to be returning lowercase symbols instead of strings.
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2015-04-23T01:06:51Z Pixel_Outlaw: nvm, idiot mistake
2015-04-23T01:07:32Z Pixel_Outlaw: I didn't think read-line was implemented in this Scheme, but it is.
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2015-04-23T03:54:05Z Pixel_Outlaw: Wonder who's idea it was to put do in R5RS? "Sure it is there, but we do not speak of it. Thou shalt recurse thy data."
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2015-04-23T05:48:39Z contrapunctus: Hi. I have a MAP from whose output I need to make a circular list. How can I do this non-destructively? (Chicken Scheme)
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2015-04-23T06:19:40Z cojy_: contrapunctus: you have to use mutation to make a circular list afaik
2015-04-23T06:22:09Z pjdelport: contrapunctus: You can make a new circular list, and avoid modifying the output list.
2015-04-23T06:22:41Z pjdelport: (Typing the new list into a circle will require internal mutation, but you can hide that behind an interface.)
2015-04-23T06:22:49Z pjdelport: (Tying, even)
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2015-04-23T09:04:53Z HisaoNakai: cojy_ , pjdelport - Thank you for your responses. I was hoping there would be a way to do it without mutation. (Drat.)
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2015-04-23T09:05:55Z pjdelport: HisaoNakai: It's impossible to do without mutation at *some* level, in an eager language.
2015-04-23T09:06:36Z wasamasa: doing what without mutation?
2015-04-23T09:08:04Z pjdelport: wasamasa: Creating a data structure with circular / self references
2015-04-23T09:08:19Z wasamasa: that sounds indeed impossible
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2015-04-23T09:08:52Z wasamasa: since you will need to bend a pointer at some time
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2015-04-23T09:09:35Z pjdelport: Right.
2015-04-23T09:10:21Z wasamasa: what I wonder about more is what exactly circular lists are useful for
2015-04-23T09:10:39Z wasamasa: asides from making people test their list processing functions more
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2015-04-23T09:38:47Z ravior_: How can you asign a variable in chezscheme
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2015-04-23T09:42:41Z pjb: (set! var expr)
2015-04-23T09:42:53Z wasamasa: (define foo 'bar)?
2015-04-23T09:43:00Z pjb: This defines a variable.
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2015-04-23T10:26:43Z pjdelport: Note that defining and assigning are distinct things, as implied by the above.
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2015-04-23T13:24:27Z davexunit: does anyone know of a scheme implementation of parser combinators that can handle ambiguous and left recursive grammars?
2015-04-23T13:27:24Z Riastradh: Unlikely.  But there are a few LALR parser generators which help you stamp out ambiguity and guarantee linear-time parsing!
2015-04-23T13:28:23Z davexunit: Riastradh: I see, thanks.
2015-04-23T13:29:21Z Riastradh: If you really want O(n^4) time parsing and ambiguous grammar, you could translate <http://richard.myweb.cs.uwindsor.ca/PUBLICATIONS/PADL_08.pdf> to Scheme.
2015-04-23T13:30:56Z davexunit: from the reading I've done, parser combinators operating on non-ambiguous grammars don't need to suffer O(n^3) or O(n^4) time complexity
2015-04-23T13:31:11Z Riastradh: Don
2015-04-23T13:31:33Z davexunit: but it would be nice to have an implementation that could handle ambiguity, nonetheless.
2015-04-23T13:31:41Z Riastradh: Don't need to but don't help you to guarantee linear-time parsing.
2015-04-23T13:31:42Z davexunit: I'm more-so interested in left recursion.
2015-04-23T13:31:58Z wasamasa: "In the face of ambiguity, resist the temptation to guess."
2015-04-23T13:32:31Z Riastradh: LALR prefers left recursion, and always guarantees linear-time parsing.
2015-04-23T13:32:42Z Riastradh: What do you want ambiguity for?
2015-04-23T13:33:37Z davexunit: implementation completeness.  but I probably shouldn't have mentioned it, left recursion is the practical, immediately useful feature I'm after.
2015-04-23T13:34:22Z davexunit: and I'd like to do it with parser combinators, not parser generators.
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2015-04-23T13:35:06Z davexunit: I've been reading about the tricks needed to make it work, but haven't yet grokked it enough to produce a working implementation.
2015-04-23T13:36:23Z davexunit: it involves some use of continuations and memoization
2015-04-23T13:39:35Z Riastradh: Why would you like to do it with parser combinators rather than parser generators?
2015-04-23T13:41:16Z davexunit: because the idea of parsers as higher-order functions that can be easily composed is interesting to me.
2015-04-23T13:42:30Z davexunit: you're probably right that I should just use a parser generator, but I'd like to see this experiment through to the end.  my goal was to produce something that could parse some subset of Markdown.
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2015-04-23T19:18:28Z cojy_: davexunit: how do you not know about https://github.com/epsil/gll ?!?!
2015-04-23T19:19:46Z davexunit: cojy_: I do know about it, actually!  the README has helped me a lot, but the implementation is pretty... not good.
2015-04-23T19:19:58Z cojy_: i see
2015-04-23T19:20:05Z davexunit: I was hoping there were some either libraries out there
2015-04-23T19:20:22Z davexunit: that readme has gotten me as far as I have, though.
2015-04-23T19:20:27Z davexunit: much credit due.
2015-04-23T19:21:58Z davexunit: I didn't like some the design choices, though.  like using a define-parser form to handle self referential and mutually recursive parsers.
2015-04-23T19:23:20Z davexunit: maybe this will prove to be a big limitation, but so far I've found it enough to simply make 'alt' a special form.
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2015-04-23T19:36:26Z cojy_: davexunit: the ometa paper is also probably worth reading
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2015-04-24T11:26:32Z RexButler: Anyone up this early?
2015-04-24T11:27:02Z RexButler: Why isn't this syntax working?
2015-04-24T11:27:06Z RexButler: http://sprunge.us/UNGS
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2015-04-24T11:30:53Z ecraven: you are missing a return value in the second cond clause
2015-04-24T11:31:04Z ecraven: you only have the comparison, but what is it supposed to return if that matches?
2015-04-24T11:32:18Z RexButler: Yes of course.
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2015-04-24T11:36:57Z RexButler: And now? http://sprunge.us/OdYA
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2015-04-24T11:37:35Z RexButler: I prefer if and define over cond and let because there are so many ()'s
2015-04-24T11:37:42Z RexButler: ugh
2015-04-24T11:38:39Z davexunit: you might be using the wrong language
2015-04-24T11:39:12Z davexunit: a cond is far easier to read than a bunch of nested ifs
2015-04-24T11:39:29Z RexButler: Yes
2015-04-24T11:39:37Z RexButler: :)
2015-04-24T11:40:10Z ski: you could use `and',`not',`or'
2015-04-24T11:41:14Z RexButler: Isn't cond with else part of racket?
2015-04-24T11:41:51Z RexButler: davexunit:
2015-04-24T11:42:09Z ski: (an element is in a set iff the set is non-empty, and ...)
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2015-04-24T11:42:58Z davexunit: RexButler: I would imagine so, but I don't use racket.
2015-04-24T11:43:34Z RexButler: davexunit:  Is your alias a reference to the various xUnit test frameworks?
2015-04-24T11:43:55Z RexButler: If so, is there a good one (or even better, a standard) for scheme?
2015-04-24T11:44:20Z wasamasa: lol
2015-04-24T11:44:21Z davexunit: no, it's just a silly AOL screenname I made when I was in middle school that I've carried with me for no good reason.
2015-04-24T11:44:46Z davexunit: RexButler: Scheme has SRFI-64
2015-04-24T11:44:55Z davexunit: is there a bot here that can spit out srfi links?
2015-04-24T11:44:58Z davexunit: ,srfi 64
2015-04-24T11:45:04Z RexButler: wasamasa: what is so funny?
2015-04-24T11:45:06Z davexunit: took a guess ;)
2015-04-24T11:45:18Z davexunit: http://srfi.schemers.org/srfi-64/srfi-64.html
2015-04-24T11:45:25Z wasamasa: RexButler: going from his nickname over to testing frameworks
2015-04-24T11:45:55Z davexunit: people often ask me wtf the "xunit" part means, and the answer is "nothing"
2015-04-24T11:45:55Z wasamasa: davexunit: I proposed writing up one, but got told it wouldn't be worth it for this relatively low-volume channel
2015-04-24T11:46:26Z davexunit: ah, I see
2015-04-24T11:46:33Z RexButler: wasamasa: Well, I thought, who better to ask?
2015-04-24T11:47:09Z davexunit: wasamasa: I think it would come in handy sometimes.  it's not like this place is a business that has to prioritize things.
2015-04-24T11:47:17Z davexunit: if someone wanted to add a helper bot, why not?
2015-04-24T11:47:35Z wasamasa: the question is of course, what should it do?
2015-04-24T11:48:00Z wasamasa: there's few factoids worth using to avoid repeating yourself (like, a link to riastradh's style guide or srfi or rnrs)
2015-04-24T11:48:03Z RexButler: I'm going with ski's suggestion.
2015-04-24T11:48:03Z davexunit: eval stuff, link to srfis, print link titles
2015-04-24T11:48:21Z davexunit: wasamasa: yeah, I think those would be useful
2015-04-24T11:48:37Z wasamasa: hmm, the problem with evaluating stuff is that it's inherently tied to some specific implementation
2015-04-24T11:51:27Z ski: (.. iirc, specbot could give links to some pieces of documentation, possibly also SRFI ?)
2015-04-24T11:52:34Z ski: rudybot: eval (reverse (list 'davexunit 'for 'stuff))
2015-04-24T11:52:34Z rudybot: ski: ; Value: '(stuff for davexunit)
2015-04-24T11:54:05Z RexButler: BTW, I'm writing this for instructive purposes
2015-04-24T11:54:29Z RexButler: ... but what is the standard shortcut way to test if an element is in a list
2015-04-24T11:54:31Z RexButler: ?
2015-04-24T11:55:29Z vraaid: RexButler: member
2015-04-24T11:55:47Z vraaid: member? rather
2015-04-24T11:55:59Z vraaid: rudybot: (member? 5 '(1 5 3))
2015-04-24T11:55:59Z rudybot: vraaid: your sandbox is ready
2015-04-24T11:56:00Z rudybot: vraaid: error: member?: undefined; <NEWLINE>  cannot reference an identifier before its definition <NEWLINE>   in module: 'program
2015-04-24T11:56:08Z ecraven: vraaid: member, not member?
2015-04-24T11:56:12Z wasamasa: rudybot: quote
2015-04-24T11:56:12Z ecraven: it does not return a boolean
2015-04-24T11:56:13Z rudybot: wasamasa: Let's plan our apple bankrupcy party.
2015-04-24T11:56:16Z vraaid: rudybot: (member 5 '(1 5 3))
2015-04-24T11:56:16Z rudybot: vraaid: ; Value: '(5 3)
2015-04-24T11:56:33Z vraaid: right you are, i was confused by a search result
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2015-04-24T11:59:43Z RexButler: I'm going through SICP (neat book) but I've been using #lang racket lately
2015-04-24T12:01:26Z RexButler: The situation with all the lisp/scheme dialects is a bit confusing to me, actually
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2015-04-24T12:09:49Z taylanub: RexButler: Common Lisp and Scheme are strictly different languages.  additionally, Scheme is not very well-standardized, so most implementations have lots of incompatible extensions to the standards, and Racket takes it as far as breaking standards-compliance altogether and calling the language "Racket" although it's still "basically" Scheme
2015-04-24T12:10:38Z taylanub: (other languages in the Lisp family would be Maclisp (historic), Emacs Lisp, Clojure, etc.; these are all on the same "level" as Common Lisp and Scheme, in the hierarchy.)
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2015-04-24T12:11:37Z RexButler: Here it is, without a cond: http://sprunge.us/EReV
2015-04-24T12:11:44Z RexButler: But now it is not tail recursive?
2015-04-24T12:11:51Z taylanub: sometimes people just say "Lisp" when they really mean Common Lisp, other times it's a catch-all term referring to all languages in the family, even though they're strictly different languages.  a bit like C, C++, Objective-C, D, etc.
2015-04-24T12:12:23Z taylanub: RexButler: that looks tail-recursive to me
2015-04-24T12:14:18Z RexButler: Then that is my prefered answer
2015-04-24T12:14:49Z ski: (you can still replace that `if' with something "more logical")
2015-04-24T12:16:27Z RexButler: Are we sure that's tail-recursive?  If we expand it it grows in size
2015-04-24T12:16:51Z taylanub: how do you expand it?
2015-04-24T12:18:10Z taylanub: 'or' is specified such that its sub-expressions are evaluated left-to-right sequentially, the last being in tail-position
2015-04-24T12:18:27Z RexButler: hmm
2015-04-24T12:18:38Z RexButler: ok
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2015-04-24T12:19:00Z RexButler: Now that I've written that I'm just going to use "member?"
2015-04-24T12:20:00Z taylanub: member? uses 'equal?' to test, but optionally takes the equality procedure to be used as an extra argument; memqv? uses 'eqv?'; memq? uses 'eq?'.
2015-04-24T12:20:30Z taylanub: so if you want it specifically for numbers, you can do (member? elem list =)
2015-04-24T12:21:54Z vraid: taylanub: as ecraven noted, it's just member, memq, memv without the question mark
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2015-04-24T12:23:21Z RexButler: Is it just me, but the sequence (list) (list 0) (list 0 1) makes more sense than nil/null/'() (list 0) (list 0 1) (list 0 1)
2015-04-24T12:23:38Z RexButler: Which is why I like (list) for the empty list... but maybe that's deceptive
2015-04-24T12:24:05Z vraid: RexButler: what about '() '(0) '(0 1)
2015-04-24T12:25:00Z vraid: RexButler: there's a small difference that '() is a value. (list) is a function call that returns '(), sort of how (+) is a function call that returns 0
2015-04-24T12:25:48Z RexButler: Wait, I'm confused about quote and list. Isn't '(0) and (quote 0) not equal to (list 0)?
2015-04-24T12:26:24Z ski: rudybot: eval (equal? (quote 0) (list 0))
2015-04-24T12:26:25Z rudybot: ski: ; Value: #f
2015-04-24T12:26:30Z ski: rudybot: eval (equal? (quote (0)) (list 0))
2015-04-24T12:26:30Z rudybot: ski: ; Value: #t
2015-04-24T12:26:43Z ski: rudybot: eval (equal? '(0) (list 0))
2015-04-24T12:26:43Z rudybot: ski: ; Value: #t
2015-04-24T12:27:03Z RexButler: That rudybot is usefull
2015-04-24T12:27:05Z davexunit: (quote 0) doesn't return a list
2015-04-24T12:27:13Z davexunit: '0
2015-04-24T12:27:40Z davexunit: or simply 0
2015-04-24T12:28:07Z RexButler: rudybot: eval (equal? (quote 0) '(0))
2015-04-24T12:28:08Z rudybot: RexButler: your sandbox is ready
2015-04-24T12:28:08Z rudybot: RexButler: ; Value: #f
2015-04-24T12:28:26Z davexunit: you are comparing a list to 0, so they won't be equal
2015-04-24T12:28:47Z davexunit: '(0) is short for (quote (0))
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2015-04-24T12:32:02Z RexButler: Here we go again: http://sprunge.us/iOCH
2015-04-24T12:32:49Z RexButler: http://sprunge.us/jAYH
2015-04-24T12:32:54Z RexButler: Yeah, that
2015-04-24T12:33:49Z RexButler: Problem with the else again
2015-04-24T12:35:56Z davexunit: what's the error?
2015-04-24T12:36:16Z ski: still no `and' :/
2015-04-24T12:36:39Z RexButler:  else: not allowed as an expression
2015-04-24T12:37:13Z davexunit: RexButler: you have a set of parens around all three cases
2015-04-24T12:37:19Z davexunit: that's not the right syntax
2015-04-24T12:37:49Z davexunit: just remove those and it will work
2015-04-24T12:38:18Z davexunit: you have (cond ((test expr) ...)) instead of (cond (test expr) ...)
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2015-04-24T12:38:35Z RexButler: tx
2015-04-24T12:39:05Z RexButler: I couldn't sleep, and now I'm up doing this.  :(
2015-04-24T12:41:35Z davexunit: np
2015-04-24T12:42:29Z taylanub: oh right, member &c. return someting other than plain booleans
2015-04-24T12:44:18Z vraid: taylanub: well, so do and/or
2015-04-24T12:45:49Z RexButler: Is seems like a lot of operations on lists naturally reverse them in the process.
2015-04-24T12:46:10Z RexButler: Which means you may have a lot of unoptimized redundant double reverses, no?
2015-04-24T12:46:11Z vraid: it happens due to iteration
2015-04-24T12:46:19Z RexButler: yes
2015-04-24T12:46:24Z vraid: you shouldn't have double reverses
2015-04-24T12:46:45Z RexButler: You mean they won't show up, or it's bad if they do
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2015-04-24T12:56:44Z RexButler: BTW, is there a sensible to name temporary inner iterators... or does it not really matter?
2015-04-24T12:57:02Z wasamasa: use a named let!
2015-04-24T12:57:15Z wasamasa: (let loop () ...)
2015-04-24T12:57:57Z RexButler: well, back to sleep.  Thanks all.
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2015-04-24T13:27:24Z C-Keen: heh "  German lesson: "Now we have the salad" = to be in trouble.  "We have had pig" = to have good fortune.  This explains a lot about German food."
2015-04-24T13:28:46Z ecraven: lol, never looked at it this way
2015-04-24T13:29:06Z C-Keen: sorry wrong channel :)
2015-04-24T13:29:36Z ecraven: C-Keen: still funny :D
2015-04-24T13:29:48Z C-Keen: indeed it is ecraven :)
2015-04-24T13:30:47Z mario-goulart: food joke, though!
2015-04-24T13:34:42Z C-Keen: heh
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2015-04-24T21:33:10Z Vic__: I'm getting "Error: Invalid `define' " http://paste.lisp.org/display/147454 , I'm new to scheme and having trouble figuring it out.
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2015-04-24T21:34:59Z wasamasa: this looks really weird
2015-04-24T21:35:04Z wasamasa: where does make-buffer come from?
2015-04-24T21:35:35Z vraid: (lambda ()) is definitely invalid
2015-04-24T21:35:53Z wasamasa: and producer and consumer
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2015-04-24T21:40:52Z wasamasa: Vic__: did you write that code or copy it together from somewhere else?
2015-04-24T21:42:06Z Vic__: I copied it, I'm trying to understand what's going on. Sorry I didn't include the entire code.
2015-04-24T21:42:26Z wasamasa: from where?
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2015-04-24T22:03:22Z wasamasa: looks like I'll never know
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2015-04-24T22:27:02Z kephra: to impatient for IRC ;-(
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2015-04-25T02:09:56Z Morden: is anybody available to take part in a 3-5min survey regarding scheme language and interpreter use potentially in commercial applications?
2015-04-25T02:10:17Z Morden: looking for experienced users in production environments if possible
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2015-04-25T02:43:36Z RexButler: What is the best way (in Racket scheme) to get a random true / false with probability p?
2015-04-25T02:47:12Z RexButler: Or even just with probability 0.5, IE flip a coin?
2015-04-25T02:47:27Z RexButler: Though I want for arbitrary float p between 0 and 1
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2015-04-25T02:54:14Z RexButler: ...
2015-04-25T02:54:28Z RexButler: We can start by just getting a random number that is 0 or 1...
2015-04-25T02:56:50Z theseb: RexButler: you can use a random number generator...not sure what the question is
2015-04-25T02:57:00Z theseb: RexButler: is the problem that you want some complicated probability distribution p?
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2015-04-25T03:03:57Z Riastradh: (< (random) p)
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2015-04-25T03:08:27Z RexButler: Riatradh: Nice
2015-04-25T03:08:54Z RexButler: thesub: No, I just want to flip a biased coin once, so it lands heads with probability 0.7, for example
2015-04-25T03:08:58Z RexButler: That works
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2015-04-25T03:12:45Z RexButler: Anyone care to critique the following: http://sprunge.us/BYUZ ?
2015-04-25T03:12:49Z RexButler: Any comments welcome
2015-04-25T03:13:09Z RexButler: Indentation, speed, style... whatever
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2015-04-25T17:35:55Z contrapunctus: o/
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2015-04-25T17:42:36Z contrapunctus: If the body of function 'c' here refers to symbols 'a' or 'b', is it breaking referential transparency? http://ix.io/eEg
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2015-04-25T17:56:52Z taylanub: contrapunctus: I don't see what would break the referential transparency of what there
2015-04-25T17:59:17Z contrapunctus: taylanub: I'm not sure I understand the concept thoroughly - isn't a function not supposed to rely on data outside of that which is passed as arguments?
2015-04-25T18:00:46Z taylanub: contrapunctus: if the struct is mutable and the procedure mutates it then calls to it will be referentially opaque
2015-04-25T18:01:00Z taylanub: but .. that doesn't seem related to a and b here
2015-04-25T18:02:25Z taylanub: correction: it doesn't need to mutate it itself; it's enough that it can be mutated at all for to break the procedure's referential transparency
2015-04-25T18:03:21Z contrapunctus: taylanub: 'mutate itself'?
2015-04-25T18:03:30Z taylanub: mutate it, the struct
2015-04-25T18:03:40Z contrapunctus: ah.
2015-04-25T18:03:53Z taylanub: hmm, but yeah, if it captures a, then you can change the procedure's behavior by mutating a from outside the procedure and re-calling it
2015-04-25T18:04:29Z taylanub: OTOH if it only accesses a struct it receives as an argument, then it will be referentially transparent as long as said struct is not shared with another thread of execution
2015-04-25T18:06:15Z taylanub: well, actually, you could pass it the same struct twice, but having it mutated in-between, so in that sense it's not even referentially transparent if it only uses the struct it's passed
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2015-04-25T18:07:16Z taylanub: (a typical memoization procedure would use `eqv?' in its implementation, which will fail at the presence of mutable objects because an object is eqv? to itself at any point in time even if its contents changed from time-point A to B)
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2015-04-25T18:08:01Z contrapunctus: Then I suppose it is alright, there's no mutation in this program (save at one point when I'm creating a circular-list, and I'm not sure if that counts).
2015-04-25T18:08:46Z contrapunctus: (Just noticed that there's a screw-up in the paste, (which shouldn't, I think, affect the discussion) - (a (a-struct)) should be (a a-struct) )
2015-04-25T18:08:55Z taylanub: (let ((my-box (box 'x))) (my-proc my-box) (box-set! my-box 'y) (my-proc my-box))  ;if my-proc does memoization, then the second call will return the same value as the first, even if the contents of the box should had changed the result
2015-04-25T18:11:47Z contrapunctus: interesting.
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2015-04-25T18:12:57Z contrapunctus: taylanub: this is the first I've heard of memoization - is (a a-struct) a correct example of it?
2015-04-25T18:13:22Z contrapunctus: or rather, is 'b'?
2015-04-25T18:15:12Z taylanub: contrapunctus: memoization is when your function caches its result and the next time it's called it just returns that result immediately
2015-04-25T18:15:45Z taylanub: contrapunctus: typically it will cache results in a hash table mapping arguments to return values
2015-04-25T18:16:43Z taylanub: i.e. the caching happens for given argument lists.  and typically equality of new arguments to previously passed arguments is checked via `eqv?' because that approximates "operational equivalence" in Scheme.
2015-04-25T18:17:45Z taylanub: operational equivalence means that you can exchange two objects and it will be impossible to tell them apart even if they're two different objects in the computer's memory.  example: two immutable lists with the same recursively immutable contents
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2015-04-25T18:20:13Z contrapunctus: interesting.
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2015-04-26T08:41:40Z jmd: I have an alist of procedures.  I can retrieve items from it, but cannot apply any of them.  I get "wrong type to apply"  What am I doing wrong?
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2015-04-26T09:01:33Z tsumetai`: Sounds like a puzzle question! I'm guessing the item is not a procedure.
2015-04-26T09:02:30Z tsumetai`: You could verify you're getting what you think you're getting by trying it out in a repl.
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2015-04-26T09:16:06Z pjdelport: jmd: Can you paste your code? (See the first link in the topic.)
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2015-04-26T09:22:52Z taylanub: jmd: I replied to you in #guile
2015-04-26T09:23:23Z taylanub: (the code was putting symbols in the alist, not unquoting them)
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2015-04-26T11:16:44Z ecraven: Riastradh: given that compiler:disassemble doesn't seem to work too well on x86_64, is there a way to look at the IR or assembly code that would be generated when compiling a function?
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2015-04-26T15:17:31Z Riastradh: ecraven: (fluid-let ((compiler:generate-rtl-files? #t)) (cf "foo"))
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2015-04-26T15:37:33Z ecraven: Riastradh: thank you!
2015-04-26T15:38:21Z ecraven: Riastradh: any way to look at the actual x86_64 instruction mnemonics?
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2015-04-26T16:24:36Z Riastradh: ecraven: compiler:generate-lap-files?
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2015-04-26T16:41:17Z threh: Hi, this question probably comes up a lot but can someone help explain why I'm getting an "unspecified return value" error from this? http://pastebin.com/CJNKVaVX
2015-04-26T16:41:32Z threh: (even without the display blocks)
2015-04-26T16:46:25Z taylanub: threh: your 'else' is misplaced; it's within the body of the (> x y) branch of the cond, whereas it should be a branch of its own
2015-04-26T16:47:03Z taylanub: threh: and the last cond is formatted wrongly entirely
2015-04-26T16:47:37Z threh: thanks very much
2015-04-26T16:48:01Z taylanub: http://sprunge.us/BAIN  this is the fixed version, if you want to cheat
2015-04-26T16:48:25Z taylanub: BTW we generally prefer dashes instead of underscores in lisp
2015-04-26T16:48:45Z threh: ah right, right. I'm an emacs user so I'm not sure why I forgot that
2015-04-26T16:54:39Z threh: ok I fixed it (without cheating) but using (display (greater-sum 3 4 5)) for example still gives unspecified return. I'm guessing that is th default behavior? thanks!
2015-04-26T16:56:23Z taylanub: I don't really see how that could return an unspecified return value
2015-04-26T16:57:01Z taylanub: all conds have an else, and all branches end in an addition.  it should return a number in all cases.
2015-04-26T16:57:11Z threh: well it's printing the correct result but then it says that unspecified return
2015-04-26T16:57:39Z taylanub: can you paste the relevant part of the REPL input/output?  (or how do you test it?)
2015-04-26T16:59:25Z threh: http://pastebin.com/QPjieytg
2015-04-26T17:00:02Z threh: i guess i didn't just paste the relevant part, sorry
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2015-04-26T17:03:57Z taylanub: threh: oh, that is just the return value of the `display' call.
2015-04-26T17:04:06Z threh: right, right
2015-04-26T17:04:10Z threh: thanks
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2015-04-26T19:16:44Z xyh: I am designing a new programming language (maybe some of you still remember me)
2015-04-26T19:16:45Z xyh: my language is not worth trying now
2015-04-26T19:16:45Z xyh: but I wish to learn something about IO primitive-functions from scheme
2015-04-26T19:16:45Z xyh: any recommended readings about IO primitive-functions design ?
2015-04-26T19:16:48Z xyh: (I have to implement them based on linux syscalls)
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2015-04-26T19:34:03Z xyh: why there are close-input-port & close-output-port instead of one close-port ?
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2015-04-26T19:39:38Z ijp: having the two distinct can useful when a port is both an input and an output port
2015-04-26T19:39:44Z ijp: in r6rs, there is a close-port
2015-04-26T19:40:39Z ijp: but I don't think anyone is going to argue that scheme's IO is a work of art
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2015-04-26T19:43:13Z xyh: so I should try to follow the design ? how about scsh ?
2015-04-26T19:43:34Z ijp: do whatever you want
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2015-04-26T21:44:47Z ecraven: what is the minimum maximum number of arguments to a function that r7rs mandates?
2015-04-26T21:47:51Z ijp: I sincerely doubt it specifies it
2015-04-26T21:48:19Z ecraven: MIT/GNU Scheme seems to support hundreds of thousands
2015-04-26T21:49:05Z ecraven: csi (chicken) seems to have a limit (for apply at least) of 2048
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2015-04-26T21:52:11Z ijp: guile lets me do (apply + (iota 100000000)) with no problem
2015-04-26T21:52:34Z ijp: I guess it's probably limited by memory
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2015-04-26T21:59:12Z ecraven: hehe, that was exactly what I tried
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2015-04-27T11:10:06Z ecraven: is there any scheme implementation that optimizes (map (lambda (a) ...) (filter (lambda (b) ...))) (by not generating the intermediate (unnecessary) list at all)?
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2015-04-27T15:22:13Z contrapunctus: How would I implement this CL macro in Scheme? Many of the Scheme resources I checked seem to not describe anything like it... http://ix.io/i8L
2015-04-27T15:23:25Z taylanub: (define-syntax check
2015-04-27T15:23:25Z taylanub:   (syntax-rules ()
2015-04-27T15:23:25Z taylanub:     ((check form)
2015-04-27T15:23:25Z taylanub:      (report-result form 'form))))
2015-04-27T15:23:51Z taylanub: or if you have define-syntax-rule, then: (define-syntax-rule (check form) (report-result form 'form))
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2015-04-27T15:25:41Z contrapunctus: Hey, taylanub . Drat, what I was trying was close. x-P Thanks!
2015-04-27T15:25:57Z taylanub: np :)
2015-04-27T15:28:21Z contrapunctus: taylanub: oh, say - is there any way I can use a higher order function to do this?
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2015-04-27T15:30:34Z taylanub: not really because when you call (some-fn (foo bar)), then (foo bar) gets evaluated first, the piece of code disappears (in abstract terms), and only then does the code of some-fn kick in, getting the *result* of (foo bar).
2015-04-27T15:30:50Z wasamasa: unless you of course put it into a lambda
2015-04-27T15:31:00Z taylanub: well, leaving aside that, if the code gets compiled then the form (foo bar) will also have disappeared by the end of compilation
2015-04-27T15:32:23Z taylanub: right, using lambda you could get a procedure object which report-result could 1. call, 2. display to the user, but this procedure object will likely be printed without its original code intact, if it has been compiled
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2015-04-27T15:40:21Z ijp: even if it hasn't
2015-04-27T15:41:10Z taylanub: no idea what pure interpreters tend to do
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2015-04-27T15:48:26Z contrapunctus: wow. o_o
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2015-04-27T19:39:16Z pflanze: Hi. I'm looking for a function that takes two pointers into a list and returns a copy of the part between them.
2015-04-27T19:39:52Z pflanze: E.g. (let ((l (list 1 2 3))) (take-until l (cddr l))) -> (1 2)
2015-04-27T19:40:18Z pflanze: Any place that already has it? What should I name it?
2015-04-27T19:41:19Z pflanze: (What should I call it, what name should I give it. Non-native here.)
2015-04-27T19:41:42Z ijp: it's a somewhat unusual function, but the name would be some word like "slice"
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2015-04-27T19:44:16Z pflanze: I need it since I'm using a lazy list as a sliding window, and for debugging I want to see the contents of the window.
2015-04-27T19:45:05Z pflanze: The algorithm maintains the start and the end of the window, no pointer comparison needed; but showing the contents of the window needs pointer comparison.
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2015-04-27T19:45:59Z pflanze: I agree that it's unusual to have functions that do pointer comparisons; but this fits here so nicely that I suspect the function must be out there already.
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2015-04-27T22:18:49Z ecraven: take and drop together should do that, right?
2015-04-27T22:18:50Z ecraven: srfi-1
2015-04-27T22:19:33Z ecraven: if you want index 5 to 17, something like (take (drop lst 5) 12) might work
2015-04-27T22:19:54Z ecraven: and something like `slice' would be a good name, as ijp said
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2015-04-27T22:52:07Z rexbutler: Anyone taken a look at:
2015-04-27T22:52:17Z rexbutler: The Scheme Programming Language by R. Kent Dybvig
2015-04-27T22:52:22Z rexbutler: Opinions?
2015-04-27T22:52:44Z rexbutler: I purchased and read the first half of SICP
2015-04-27T22:52:57Z rexbutler: I bought HTDP and was disappointed.
2015-04-27T22:53:07Z rexbutler: Looking around at other scheme books.
2015-04-27T22:57:11Z rexbutler: I'm also taking a look at Simply Scheme
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2015-04-27T22:58:08Z fizzie: "Programming Languages: Application and Interpretation" is also bit of a Scheme (well, Racket) book.
2015-04-27T22:59:25Z fizzie: (Not that it's really about the language.)
2015-04-27T23:00:04Z rexbutler: I just bought a copy of the Dybvig book
2015-04-27T23:01:10Z fizzie: Our intro-to-programming course used to be based on SICP; then it got split into two pieces with the first half using HtDP and the second one PLAI. At least compared to HtDP, PLAI is much more about programming languages than programming.
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2015-04-27T23:05:16Z fizzie: PLAI's freely available online, so it's at least a low-risk thing to find out if you like it. I don't recall my opinion, and I think it's changed quite a bit since then.
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2015-04-27T23:31:10Z tsumetai`: rexbutler: Lisp In Small Pieces?
2015-04-27T23:34:38Z rexbutler: tsumetai`: Looking at amazon.com... pricey book
2015-04-27T23:34:56Z rexbutler: looks fairly advanced
2015-04-27T23:36:16Z tsumetai`: Now, the books you did buy, they're available for free, you know. :p
2015-04-27T23:37:03Z rexbutler: I like printed copies.
2015-04-27T23:37:13Z rexbutler: I do regret buying HTDP though... not for me.
2015-04-27T23:40:52Z tsumetai`: Libraries are nice. :o
2015-04-27T23:41:09Z tsumetai`: PAIP is a cool book, though it uses Common Lisp.
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2015-04-28T00:22:03Z pflanze: ecraven, I'm not talking about indizes, but pointers. Look at my example. It's really a version of |take| that takes a pointer instead of a length.
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2015-04-28T00:22:20Z pflanze: That's why I called it take-until.
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2015-04-28T05:20:18Z p2-m2: hi is anyone working on a project that needs help? (I can help with a small pay in return)
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2015-04-28T06:09:41Z Pixel_Outlaw: wasamasa, If you ever want to team up I'd be game.
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2015-04-28T08:52:59Z zadrot_ebaniy: is there any way to do nothing in scheme?
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2015-04-28T09:06:12Z kephra: zadrot_ebaniy, (begin)
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2015-04-28T09:09:35Z taylanub: kephra: that's non-compliant
2015-04-28T09:09:45Z taylanub: zadrot_ebaniy: (values) should do
2015-04-28T09:09:56Z taylanub: or any constant, if it should return a value
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2015-04-28T09:15:21Z kephra: taylanub, what do you mean with non-compliant? (begin) without anything is legal in r4rs - one problem could be that begin is a special form, and most schemes wont accept it for apply or foreach I guess
2015-04-28T09:16:39Z taylanub: kephra: the `begin' that is an expression expects at least one operand expression
2015-04-28T09:17:07Z kephra: *nope* look at the r4rs regression test short under SECTION 5 2 1
2015-04-28T09:17:32Z taylanub: the `begin' that is in definition context and automatically splices its operands into the position it appears in accepts zero operands, splicing into no definitions
2015-04-28T09:19:00Z evhan: taylanub: Actually, an empty begin is valid in R4RS.
2015-04-28T09:19:03Z taylanub: kephra: section 4.2.3 in R4RS
2015-04-28T09:19:27Z taylanub: evhan: nope, see above.  (unless it was a mistake in 4.2.3...)
2015-04-28T09:19:32Z kephra: yes - but why does the regression test uses those (begin) statements without any expressions
2015-04-28T09:19:43Z taylanub: kephra: maybe it's in definition context
2015-04-28T09:20:11Z taylanub: there are two separate `begin' syntaxes, one is for sequencing expressions, the other for splicing definitions (a hack to help macros that want to output several definitions)
2015-04-28T09:20:25Z kephra: http://groups.csail.mit.edu/mac/ftpdir/scm/r4rstest.scm <- search for (SECTION 5 2 1)
2015-04-28T09:20:27Z ecraven: shouldn't you talk about r7rs instead of r4rs?
2015-04-28T09:20:48Z evhan: taylanub: Ah, indeed. 4.2.3 and 5.2 differ.
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2015-04-28T09:21:30Z taylanub: ecraven: at least R5RS, yeah :-)  (I know that what I'm saying holds for R5 and 7RS too, and most likely R6RS)
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2015-04-28T09:22:47Z wasamasa: I like these drive-by questions that trigger lengthy discussions
2015-04-28T09:22:50Z taylanub: kephra: all (begin) forms seem in definition context there
2015-04-28T09:23:01Z taylanub: no wait
2015-04-28T09:23:01Z wasamasa: while the questioner is probably, far, far away and snickering about the outcome
2015-04-28T09:23:18Z ijp: even in a definition context, (begin ...) is not valid
2015-04-28T09:23:23Z ijp: er (begin)
2015-04-28T09:23:35Z kephra: taylanub, all those begins are just nested begins
2015-04-28T09:24:43Z evhan: ijp: R4RS and R7RS, at least, seem to beg to differ.
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2015-04-28T09:25:20Z kephra: I guess we all agree, that (begin) is not legal, if we read the words of r4rs 4.3.2 - but still the r4rs regression test has those (begin) statements without any expression inside at section 5.2
2015-04-28T09:25:38Z ijp: evhan: in this case it seems I was mistaken
2015-04-28T09:27:02Z kephra: http://norvig.com/jscheme/r4rstest.scm <- the norvig version of r4rs does not have this - it might be an mit scheme special!
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2015-04-28T09:27:18Z kephra: what is the autoridative version of the r4rs test?
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2015-04-28T09:31:33Z kephra: the savannah.gnu and mit version of the r4rs test contain the (begin) statement
2015-04-28T09:33:16Z taylanub: freaking internet connection...
2015-04-28T09:33:58Z kephra: the guile r4rs also does not contain this funny (begin) tree
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2015-04-28T09:41:50Z kephra: so, my guess no is, that (begin) without any expression is an MIT Scheme special - anyone here using MIT Scheme to confirm this?
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2015-04-28T09:43:25Z taylanb: freaking internet connection... >_<
2015-04-28T09:43:51Z kephra: how much did you miss - do you want a paste via pm?
2015-04-28T09:43:54Z taylanb: R4, 5, and 7RS all disallow (begin) as an expression, but allow it as a definition, as seen in the grammar and also explained in the relevant sections
2015-04-28T09:44:18Z taylanb: R6RS uses a different notation for its grammar and such so I couldn't check, but I'd expect it to be the same
2015-04-28T09:44:33Z taylanb: the test suite might have a bug; the standard is authoritative
2015-04-28T09:45:26Z kephra: my last (real) question was: what is the authoridative version of r4rs test - because http://groups.csail.mit.edu/mac/ftpdir/scm/r4rstest.scm looks as if it added MIT Scheme extensions
2015-04-28T09:45:27Z ijp: taylanb: conveniently, both forms are together in r6rs
2015-04-28T09:45:39Z ijp: r5rs spread it out over two parts
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2015-04-28T09:48:10Z taylanb: ijp: R3 through 7RS except for 6 all have pretty much the same layout really
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2015-04-28T09:49:24Z taylanb: I like many things from R6RS, but the entirely new layout, wording, etc. is not one of them :(
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2015-04-28T09:51:40Z kephra: btw, I hope to do a bit more dev this week - wednesday to monday had been mainly founders and operation work - lots of meeting and eat - and I have migrated nearly everything to my new server
2015-04-28T09:52:16Z kephra: http://o3db.com/proto/veritas.html <- this should now be snappy fast - as the db is no longer at home via openvpn
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2015-04-28T09:59:02Z wasamasa: kephra: pardon, but what exactly is that?
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2015-04-28T09:59:28Z kephra: wasamasa, this is a prototype of a database application language
2015-04-28T09:59:30Z wasamasa: kephra: from the first look it seems to be your regular CRUD app
2015-04-28T09:59:54Z wasamasa: kephra: so, something to simplify creating CRUD applications?
2015-04-28T09:59:56Z kephra: http://kephra.de/o3proto/r4rs-subset.html <- wasamasa and on 2nd looks its Scheme inside the browser ;-)
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2015-04-28T10:01:38Z kephra: to be precise a Scheme look like, with a few big differences
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2015-04-28T10:02:57Z wasamasa: so you've implemented a scheme-lookalike in javascript to simplify the creation of CRUD applications?
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2015-04-28T10:03:20Z kephra: no cons cells (only lists), characters are strings of length 1, vectors are lists (both implemented as JS arrays), no hygenic macros, but lisp like simple macros, reader macros, and forth like build does macros
2015-04-28T10:03:49Z kephra: wasamasa, exactly - the goal is to write CRUD apps in Scheme
2015-04-28T10:04:27Z wasamasa: sounds legitimate considering how boring (and necessary for businesses) that kind of task is
2015-04-28T10:04:28Z kephra: so I have a Scheme engine + a MVC GUI running in browser - talking to a remote database
2015-04-28T10:04:58Z kephra: in result, the GUI app behaves like a desktop app, because it does real MVC
2015-04-28T10:05:30Z kephra: http://kephra.de/o3proto/books.html <- an example for the MVC of dotted variables
2015-04-28T10:06:39Z kephra: http://kephra.de/o3proto/books.scm <- this code contains complete definition for data, gui, and calculation
2015-04-28T10:07:40Z kephra: the magic of (set! lin.moa (* lin.qty lin.pri)) statement is, that I do not need to tell what row - dotted variables act on relations
2015-04-28T10:08:23Z C-Keen: nice idea
2015-04-28T10:09:20Z kephra: an other magic, that is possible with Scheme, is that I can hide the JS callback hell
2015-04-28T10:10:18Z kephra: the first veritas.html example has to call a database - so the interpreter has to quit, else the browser would never send the ajax request - and sometimes later a reply from the database has to continue the interpreter at right point
2015-04-28T10:12:02Z kephra: (set-data 'item (query-file "db:query-article" '((name "%Beck%") (ndx "W")))) ;;; <- thats normal sequential coding ... nobody should notice the JS callback hell at query-file
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2015-04-28T17:31:14Z nateb: How do scheme compilers deal with some of the more runtime-heavy features of scheme like ((string->symbol "car") '(a b))?
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2015-04-28T17:36:37Z taylanub: nateb: that's an error
2015-04-28T17:36:41Z davexunit: yeah
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2015-04-28T17:36:50Z davexunit: ('car '(a b))
2015-04-28T17:36:54Z davexunit: 'car is not a procedure
2015-04-28T17:37:59Z nateb: davexunit: is there a way to dynamically generate a symbol, the name of a proc, then invoke it?
2015-04-28T17:38:24Z davexunit: nateb: I belive that depends on your implementation
2015-04-28T17:38:44Z davexunit: but not sure.  there's ways to do it.
2015-04-28T17:39:23Z nateb: I guess my more general question is if binaries produced by scheme compilers need to have symbol tables for all of their procedures
2015-04-28T17:42:08Z taylanub: nateb: generally, under lexical/static scoping, the association between identifiers (unquoted symbols) and objects lives only until compilation ends.  by the time the program starts, the association is gone (unless the implementation and/or the user have done something special to explicitly keep it) and thus there's no way to go from a dynamically generated symbol to any binding it had at
2015-04-28T17:42:08Z taylanub: compile-time
2015-04-28T17:43:51Z taylanub: what remains in place of the identifiers are nameless unique objects.  for debugging purposes, the implementation is likely to carry over some name, but this will be a one-way association because several identifiers may have the same name.
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2015-04-28T17:44:13Z taylanub: for instance, in the code (let ((x 0)) (let ((x 1)) x)), there are two different 'x' identifiers.
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2015-04-28T17:44:49Z nateb: taylanub: thanks, this is really interesting & please tell me more when I get back if you desire, but something just came up and I need to head out for a bit
2015-04-28T17:45:00Z taylanub: nateb: (I'm speaking partially conceptually BTW, or in terms of a simplistic implementation...)
2015-04-28T17:45:12Z taylanub: nateb: ok, laters
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2015-04-28T18:01:02Z thomassgn: Hello, I have started fiddling around in elisp, my background is in C++ where I would frequently do something like 'if (!flyingp goose)', looking at that negation is that normal/a good way to work in (e)lisp? If not what are better ways of working with boolean tests and negation?
2015-04-28T18:02:14Z thomassgn: I guess in that "C++" is more like not c++. Though I hope you get the idea :P
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2015-04-28T18:07:49Z taylanub: thomassgn: for elisp help, one would typically ask #emacs
2015-04-28T18:08:17Z taylanub: elisp, common lisp (cl, sometimes just called "lisp"), and scheme are three different languages
2015-04-28T18:08:52Z taylanub: elisp is also more similar to cl than scheme.
2015-04-28T18:08:56Z thomassgn: taylanub: isn't elisp a scheme dialect? just like racket?
2015-04-28T18:09:16Z taylanub: elisp is Emacs Lisp
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2015-04-28T18:09:48Z thomassgn: yes, I just thought elisp was based on the scheme standard, r5rs or what it is
2015-04-28T18:10:00Z taylanub: nope.  mostly descended from MacLisp AFAIK.  old and dirty.
2015-04-28T18:10:19Z taylanub: well there's modernization going on; it even has lexical scoping since a couple years.
2015-04-28T18:10:49Z thomassgn: haha, ok. Thanks for clearing that up.
2015-04-28T18:11:45Z thomassgn: but for arguments sake, if I were using a scheme implementation, like guile?
2015-04-28T18:12:12Z thomassgn: (I'm quite sure guile is scheme ... running to check)
2015-04-28T18:12:57Z taylanub: yeah, Guile implements Scheme, primarily.  funnily though, it also supports elisp, because some people hope to one day unify Emacs and Guile :)
2015-04-28T18:13:16Z taylanub: http://www.emacswiki.org/emacs/GuileEmacs
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2015-04-28T18:13:59Z thomassgn: hehe, I probably had the two confused.
2015-04-28T18:14:01Z taylanub: thomassgn: one would typically do (if (not (flying? goose)) ...) in Scheme, only conventional difference from cl/elisp being the question mark instead of the letter 'p'
2015-04-28T18:14:21Z taylanub: one might also do (unless (flying? goose) ...)
2015-04-28T18:14:34Z taylanub: or (when (not (flying? goose)) ...)
2015-04-28T18:15:20Z taylanub: when/unless don't have an "else" branch.  (if x (begin foo bar)) = (when x foo bar)
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2015-04-28T18:15:52Z taylanub: ('begin' is just sequencing expressions; needed in that position because 'if' expects a single "then" expression.)
2015-04-28T18:16:12Z thomassgn: aha, awesome. Just what I was looking for :D thanks a bunch taylanub
2015-04-28T18:16:24Z taylanub: np
2015-04-28T18:17:29Z thomassgn: Making a topic jump: do you have any experience with webframeworks?
2015-04-28T18:17:45Z taylanub: not really
2015-04-28T18:18:22Z thomassgn: allright
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2015-04-28T18:48:47Z allfs: i'm having some difficulty with chicken scheme would someone mind taking a look at a simple function?
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2015-04-28T19:01:59Z allfs: hello
2015-04-28T19:02:04Z gnomon: hello
2015-04-28T19:02:17Z allfs: would you mind helping me with something simple
2015-04-28T19:02:50Z allfs: a 3 line nub function won't even work for me and I'm not sure why
2015-04-28T19:03:01Z allfs: I've written scheme programs for class but I can't even get this shite to work
2015-04-28T19:03:25Z allfs: http://pastebin.com/gnG1VN12
2015-04-28T19:03:35Z gnomon: allfs, I'm afraid that my familiarity with Chicken is very low, but if you ask your question with some supporting details then it's very likely someone in this channel will be able to give you a hand.
2015-04-28T19:04:00Z allfs: thank you
2015-04-28T19:04:10Z allfs: i tried it in mit-scheme as well
2015-04-28T19:04:28Z allfs: I'm just trying to read in a string and append it to a list of strings then display that list within the function
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2015-04-28T19:07:48Z tsumetai: append doesn't modify anything.
2015-04-28T19:08:01Z allfs: it doesn't?
2015-04-28T19:08:14Z allfs: would I need to use list ?
2015-04-28T19:09:16Z allfs: no that doesn't work either. it does work if I just let append return the value though
2015-04-28T19:09:30Z tsumetai: if you just want to display it you can (display (append terms (list (read-line)))), but nothing will be modified.
2015-04-28T19:09:58Z allfs: is this because scheme is call by name?
2015-04-28T19:12:03Z tsumetai: It isn't call by name, but it's got nothing to do with it. append simply doesn't modify anything. :)
2015-04-28T19:12:15Z allfs: how can I modify terms? I tried cons as well
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2015-04-28T19:13:15Z gnomon: allfs, if you want destructive modification or mutation, you should (1) look into SET!, and (2) investigate why that's the Wrong Thing To Do(tm) with Scheme.
2015-04-28T19:13:33Z allfs: i simply want to recursively append strings to a list until an empty string is reached
2015-04-28T19:13:48Z allfs: would the proper way be to define another function (or subfunction) and call it recursively?
2015-04-28T19:15:30Z tsumetai: Sure, and simply return the list of strings without modifying/mutating anything.
2015-04-28T19:16:06Z allfs: thank you. is this the best way to accomplish my task?
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2015-04-28T19:16:56Z gnomon: allfs, the questions you're asking lead me to believe that you're not very familiar with the concepts behind Scheme in general.  Is that more or less right?  (There's no shame or derision in that, everyone starts somewhere.)  If so, welcome!  And if so: why are you working on this specific thing?  What broader problem are you trying to solve by building up this list of strings?
2015-04-28T19:17:08Z allfs: that is true
2015-04-28T19:17:24Z allfs: i have done somme scheme for class and have started a bit of SICP
2015-04-28T19:17:38Z allfs: i'm interested and recreating a craigslist bot i wrote a long time ago
2015-04-28T19:17:41Z allfs: as a learning exercise
2015-04-28T19:17:53Z allfs: reading in a list of strings as a list of search terms
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2015-04-28T19:20:40Z allfs: i'm not sure why this is so hard for me. maybe i should study up some more
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2015-04-28T19:23:11Z tsumetai: You need let, if, string-null?, read-line, and cons.
2015-04-28T19:24:29Z caleb_smith: yeah, the distinction folks are making in the above is that you want to return a *new* list, made from the old list and a new element each time, rather than trying to mutate the list in place
2015-04-28T19:25:16Z caleb_smith: yeah, what tsumetai said is a good place to start for procedures to use
2015-04-28T19:25:25Z allfs: hm hm
2015-04-28T19:25:28Z allfs: definitely need the let eh?
2015-04-28T19:25:40Z tsumetai: Except string-null? isn't in r5rs apparently. :(
2015-04-28T19:25:52Z allfs: null? is isn't it?
2015-04-28T19:26:17Z allfs: as in (null? (list (read-line)))
2015-04-28T19:27:08Z tsumetai: No, you need to check if the string you get from read-line is empty, is what you said.
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2015-04-28T19:29:06Z allfs: good lord this is harder than it should be haha
2015-04-28T19:29:09Z allfs: (for me)
2015-04-28T19:29:11Z tsumetai: (define (string-null? x) (= 0 (string-length x)))
2015-04-28T19:29:44Z tsumetai: Well, it's only hard becuase you don't know how to organize it yet.
2015-04-28T19:30:31Z tsumetai: Perhaps don't worry about building up a list just yet and just try to recurse until you hit an empty string, and then stop.
2015-04-28T19:30:54Z kephra: do you really want to stop at an empty string, and not eof?
2015-04-28T19:31:02Z allfs: yes it's user input
2015-04-28T19:31:04Z kephra: (eof-object? foo)
2015-04-28T19:32:17Z kephra: (define (string-null? x) (and (string? x) (= 0 (string-length x))))
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2015-04-28T19:40:19Z allfs: ok i have it now I think
2015-04-28T19:40:23Z allfs: ut there is no terminating condition yet haha
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2015-04-28T19:43:55Z allfs: hmm so it's working fine but in chicken (i believe this works in mit-scheme) you can't take the car of an empty list
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2015-04-28T19:44:16Z tsumetai: That's Scheme.
2015-04-28T19:44:25Z allfs: well shite
2015-04-28T19:44:25Z allfs: :)
2015-04-28T19:44:36Z tsumetai: Is that a problem?
2015-04-28T19:44:43Z tsumetai: :)
2015-04-28T19:44:47Z allfs: no i'll check for null first
2015-04-28T19:45:53Z allfs: if I do (not (and (null? terms) (eq? "q" (car terms)))) and terms is empty, the car terms won't run correct?
2015-04-28T19:46:42Z allfs: balls
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2015-04-28T19:50:09Z taylanub: allfs: you shouldn't compare strings with eq?
2015-04-28T19:50:28Z taylanub: allfs: use string=? or equal?
2015-04-28T19:50:49Z tsumetai: allfs: You might be interested in 'member'.
2015-04-28T19:51:02Z taylanub: indeed, tsumetai saw the bigger picture :)
2015-04-28T19:51:13Z allfs: ooooo
2015-04-28T19:51:15Z allfs: i forgot about that
2015-04-28T19:51:29Z taylanub: (member uses equal? by default, by the way)
2015-04-28T19:52:01Z allfs: no way
2015-04-28T19:52:04Z allfs: that worked!
2015-04-28T19:52:11Z allfs: aw yis
2015-04-28T19:52:32Z allfs: thanks for your help all :)
2015-04-28T19:54:37Z allfs: i should really look over R5RS primitives
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2015-04-28T19:54:53Z tsumetai: You should reimplement them.
2015-04-28T19:55:19Z allfs: hmm using what primitives?
2015-04-28T19:55:22Z allfs: just other ones?
2015-04-28T19:57:50Z allfs: oh probably define car and cdr i suppose
2015-04-28T19:57:56Z allfs: and cons
2015-04-28T19:58:32Z tsumetai: I guess figuring that out could be a worhtwhile exercise in of itself.
2015-04-28T19:58:39Z allfs: hehe
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2015-04-29T00:20:01Z RexButler: How do I get the higher order version of foldr that works on a sequence of sequences?
2015-04-29T00:20:20Z RexButler: list of lists, whatever
2015-04-29T00:22:09Z vraid: RexButler: what result are you looking for?
2015-04-29T00:22:56Z RexButler: I'm trying to transpose a matrix, essentially
2015-04-29T00:23:04Z RexButler: I think I need a generalized foldr
2015-04-29T00:23:29Z RexButler: I want to apply foldr to the first element of the list, the second elements of the lists, etc...
2015-04-29T00:23:55Z vraid: a map of folds?
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2015-04-29T00:24:42Z teurastaja: is there a way to build monads from continuations in scheme?
2015-04-29T00:26:19Z RexButler: brb
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2015-04-29T00:30:58Z teurastaja: no one?
2015-04-29T00:33:10Z fizzie: RexButler: (apply map list '((1 2 3) (4 5 6) (7 8 9))) is ((1 4 7) (2 5 8) (3 6 9)), if that's the sort of thing you mean. (Gone now.)
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2015-04-29T00:36:25Z teurastaja: thats a clumsy way of transposing a matrix. why not (define transpose (curry apply zip)) ?
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2015-04-29T00:38:36Z teurastaja: where curry is (define (curry f g) (lambda (x) (f (g x))))
2015-04-29T00:39:56Z vraid: can you curry apply?
2015-04-29T00:41:17Z teurastaja: or just: (define (transpose matrix) (apply zip matrix))
2015-04-29T00:41:46Z vraid: what is zip here? list ?
2015-04-29T00:41:49Z teurastaja: you can curry anything you want
2015-04-29T00:42:01Z teurastaja: zip is matrix transposition
2015-04-29T00:42:27Z teurastaja: does the same as fizzies example
2015-04-29T00:42:48Z teurastaja: it is defined in srfi-1
2015-04-29T00:43:43Z teurastaja: but zip requires each list as another parameter. apply lets it slip in
2015-04-29T00:45:50Z ijp: 1. that isn't currying, that is function compostion
2015-04-29T00:46:03Z ijp: 2. you can use continuations for monads, but why would you?
2015-04-29T00:46:04Z teurastaja: ah true
2015-04-29T00:46:28Z teurastaja: so i can build state monads, list monads etc
2015-04-29T00:46:44Z ijp: see representing monads by filinksi (there be dragons)
2015-04-29T00:47:24Z teurastaja: well i use function composition everywhere just to avoid rewriting "pointless" variables
2015-04-29T00:47:32Z teurastaja: lol its a pun
2015-04-29T00:47:44Z teurastaja: "pointless" notation ;)
2015-04-29T00:52:39Z teurastaja: so yeah....  my guess is youre writing a sudoku solver and i managed to write a row/column/box function that takes a flat grid and returns it in row/column/box under 10 lines of code ;)
2015-04-29T00:52:43Z teurastaja: want to see it?
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2015-04-29T01:05:30Z teurastaja: well... want it or not i just rewrote it:
2015-04-29T01:05:39Z teurastaja: (define (split-in ls n)
2015-04-29T01:05:40Z teurastaja:   (let f([ls ls] [y (list)])
2015-04-29T01:05:42Z teurastaja:     (if (null? ls) (reverse y)
2015-04-29T01:05:43Z teurastaja: 	    (f (drop ls n) (cons (take ls n) y)))))
2015-04-29T01:05:45Z teurastaja: (define (make-regions grid)
2015-04-29T01:05:46Z teurastaja:   (define (transpose rs) (apply zip rs))
2015-04-29T01:05:48Z teurastaja:   (define (split3 ls) (split-in grid 3))
2015-04-29T01:05:49Z teurastaja:   (define rows (split-in grid 9))
2015-04-29T01:05:51Z teurastaja:   (define columns (transpose rows))
2015-04-29T01:05:52Z teurastaja:   (define blocks
2015-04-29T01:05:54Z teurastaja:     (map concatenate
2015-04-29T01:05:55Z teurastaja: 	  (concatenate
2015-04-29T01:05:57Z teurastaja: 	    (map transpose
2015-04-29T01:05:58Z teurastaja: 		  (split3 (map split3 rows))))))
2015-04-29T01:06:00Z teurastaja:   (list rows columns blocks))
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2015-04-29T01:10:45Z teurastaja: anyone has an example of a hylomorphism in action? i could rewrite split-in like that
2015-04-29T01:11:14Z teurastaja: that monoid pattern is just too common...
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2015-04-29T01:28:15Z ijp: you can recast many sorting algorithms as hylomorphisms
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2015-04-29T09:03:27Z 
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2015-04-29T09:03:27Z names: fadein turbofail pygospa nowhere_man joneshf-laptop chishiki c74d yrdz dxtr pflanze niklasl ByronJohnson hellome fds fizzie jyc vikraman ELLIOTTCABLE GGMethos pjdelport stasku greghendershott cojy_ strmpnk acarrico foof fikusz add^_ joast eagleflo scoofy ohama b4283 NaNDude tessier githogori clog DrPete_ vifino Kryo Tbone139 juanfra aksatac jkraemer pchrist asumu metaf5 gf3 FracV akkad nitrix yosafbridge` girrig Cheery twem2_ mrowe_away klutometis adzuci
2015-04-29T09:03:27Z names: stamourv dytrivedi balkamos tmh_ benaiah az samth jrslepak Khisanth kwmiebach Natch rudybot gnomon dsp jcloud dsp_ ivan\ teiresias carc akp mario-goulart Gianormagantrous mark_weaver dualbus Kruppe chazu cky SirDayBat emma serhart sethalve_ wasamasa tristero weinholt ski petercommand evhan henrytill _0x5eb_ gabot cmpitg_ cjh` LeoNerd certainty zbigniew_ maxigas C-Keen xfz rotty averell ecraven Neet micro^_ belkinsoop Blkt defanor abbe edw duncanm cibs
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2015-04-29T10:28:29Z contrapunctus: I was (loosely) working off PCL's unit test chapter in Scheme for some macro practice, and here's what I have right now. http://paste.lisp.org/display/147636
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2015-04-29T10:29:54Z contrapunctus: I'd now like to wrap the IFs in a LIST call, so I can return a #t/#f for each IF branch, to end up with a list containing the results from all the IFs. But anything I think of, fails because of the recursion...how may I do this?
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2015-04-29T10:59:06Z contrapunctus: .oO(...that macro seems fundamentally messed up. Too many BEGINs cluttering up the expansion if there are multiple clauses. Not sure how I should improve that, either.)
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2015-04-29T11:08:08Z kephra: how are the (test fn pred c2 c3 ...) expanded - I think I'm missing that point?
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2015-04-29T11:28:06Z contrapunctus: kephra: well, I wanted it to take any number of clauses, where each clause is any number of data forms followed by one result form - (data1 ...result1) (data2 ... result2) . The clauses should be transformed into if statements - (if (pred (fn data1 ...) result1) ...) (if (pred (fn data2 ...) result2) ...)
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2015-04-29T15:03:41Z SrPx: OK I have a list of functions defined as "(define ...)" and so on in a file. How can I create a module and import those in another file? i.e., equivalent to Python's "import myfile"
2015-04-29T15:06:43Z contrapunctus: SrPx: I'm not sure if this is implementation specific or not. I think one is supposed to use REQUIRE in Chicken Scheme, although there are other options.
2015-04-29T15:08:38Z SrPx: Ah... but how exactly? Just add (REQUIRE myfile) to one of the files and nothing to the other?
2015-04-29T15:08:51Z SrPx: unbound variable REQUIRE (using chicken)
2015-04-29T15:09:06Z SrPx: nvm got it, thanks :)
2015-04-29T15:09:58Z contrapunctus: I think you just write (require "filename-without-extension")
2015-04-29T15:10:03Z contrapunctus: yay :)
2015-04-29T15:10:05Z SrPx: that's correct!
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2015-04-29T15:18:55Z contrapunctus: How can I make this macro work without using BEGINs? http://paste.lisp.org/display/147642 I'd like to have each branch of the IFs to (also) return a #t/#f, store the #t/#fs in a list, and check if any of the elements in the list are #f. But I can't do that because of the BEGINs, and can't seem to make the macro work without the BEGINs...thoughts?
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2015-04-29T15:24:56Z contrapunctus: (If I make the IF branches return a #t/#f, and pass a TEST macro call to a LIST, I get a list containing a single #t/#f - the result of the very last IF form.)
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2015-04-29T15:37:09Z kephra: http://kephra.de/o3proto/r4rs-subset.html <- made a good progress with r4rs regression test 13 failures of 399 tests covering section 4 to 6.9 completely - two of the failures are only because the visual result differs, but the result is still true (I'm expanding nesting quasiquotes into one step)
2015-04-29T15:37:34Z kephra: 11 failures are because my Scheme look like has no cons cells 😃
2015-04-29T15:37:53Z kephra: surprising how much Scheme is possible without cons cells, isn't it
2015-04-29T15:38:24Z kephra: Feierabend!
2015-04-29T15:38:29Z kephra: ... for today
2015-04-29T15:38:43Z antoszka: Funny, this page causes my Firefox to eat 100% CPU.
2015-04-29T15:38:49Z LeoNerd: Is the page: twitter?
2015-04-29T15:38:51Z antoszka: How bad do webpages get…
2015-04-29T15:38:52Z LeoNerd: (that does for me)
2015-04-29T15:39:01Z LeoNerd: Well, not 100%.. about 60%. of one core
2015-04-29T15:39:01Z antoszka: LeoNerd: No, the link above, kephra.de.
2015-04-29T15:39:12Z antoszka: 100% of one core here.
2015-04-29T15:39:16Z kephra: antoszka, what FF version, what CPU and OS?
2015-04-29T15:39:40Z kephra: let me try on my eeepc
2015-04-29T15:39:58Z antoszka: kephra: 37.0.1, i7 M620, Linux 3.18.11, x64.
2015-04-29T15:40:13Z antoszka: kephra: it stopped now.
2015-04-29T15:40:26Z kephra: did it display a lot?
2015-04-29T15:40:29Z antoszka: but it did run for like 30 seconds.
2015-04-29T15:40:41Z antoszka: kephra: no, just the small Scheme snippets.
2015-04-29T15:41:26Z antoszka: kephra: But I think it wasn't loaded fully at first (because the scrollbar was shorter than it is now)
2015-04-29T15:41:42Z antoszka: is there any special JS running within this page?
2015-04-29T15:41:50Z antoszka: or did my FF just go crazy?
2015-04-29T15:42:14Z kephra: its running the complete r4rs regression test interpreted in scheme in js in your browser
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2015-04-29T15:42:21Z kephra: (nearly complete)
2015-04-29T15:42:55Z kephra: its also loading files step by step - so its a few seconds on my system also
2015-04-29T15:42:59Z antoszka: kephra: ah, okay. I'm not complaning then. Didn't realise that :)
2015-04-29T15:43:06Z kephra: mainly caused by (display) and (load)
2015-04-29T15:43:09Z antoszka: Disregard my whining ;)
2015-04-29T15:43:45Z saml: is scheme good to learn?
2015-04-29T15:44:00Z ijp: learning is always good
2015-04-29T15:44:18Z ijp: except for when you learn that santa isn't real, that's bad times
2015-04-29T15:44:19Z saml: can i make a web site and web socket in schme?
2015-04-29T15:46:53Z taylanub: saml: there's SRFI-106 but it's not supported by many implementations; you'll have to use implementation-specific APIs
2015-04-29T15:46:59Z kephra: antoszka, ;-( it takes 30 seconds on my eeepc over wlan throttled to 786kb/seconds - thats my slow machine test
2015-04-29T15:47:23Z kephra just slaughtered the holy VM/370 cow of subsecond response
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2015-04-29T15:47:41Z antoszka: kephra: maybe it's some extensions on my machine that interfere with sensible execution of that code.
2015-04-29T15:47:44Z antoszka: kephra: no idea.
2015-04-29T15:48:08Z contrapunctus: anyone's thoughts regarding my query? :(
2015-04-29T15:48:10Z antoszka: kephra: i can try again for a more precise benchmark (in a while) on another browser too.
2015-04-29T15:48:59Z davexunit: taylanub: srfi-106 doesn't implement websockets
2015-04-29T15:49:14Z davexunit: saml: chicken scheme has a websockets library
2015-04-29T15:49:23Z davexunit: and it's on my TODO list to add one to Guile
2015-04-29T15:49:47Z davexunit: I've already written code to do the initial handshake, but some changes are required to Guile's HTTP server implementation to fully integrate it.
2015-04-29T15:50:10Z kephra: antoszka, http://o3db.com/proto/veritas.html <- but to show that same scheme can do a database access and gui in subsecond response ;-)
2015-04-29T15:52:41Z kephra dances the Hoolah Hoolah Dance -> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f19NBu41APk
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2015-04-29T16:02:11Z antoszka: yep :)
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2015-04-29T16:02:26Z antoszka: It took 27 seconds on a second run.
2015-04-29T16:02:31Z kephra: saml, nice suggestion - web socket for my scheme ;-)
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2015-04-29T16:02:55Z saml: which one is better and faster and recommended? chicken or gambit?
2015-04-29T16:03:17Z saml: old micro benchmarks suggest gambit is faster
2015-04-29T16:04:42Z kephra: antoszka, I think time is mainly consumed by (display) adding strings to innerHTML (and that is known to be VERY slow) - and every (load) requiring an AJAX continuation
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2015-04-29T16:06:55Z antoszka: It doesn't seem to run properly in Chrome, though.
2015-04-29T16:07:08Z kephra: *oh* thats bad
2015-04-29T16:08:19Z kephra: http://kephra.de/o3proto/r4rs-one.html <- antoszka does a smaller load work?
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2015-04-29T16:09:11Z antoszka: kephra: yep, that seems to load pretty much immediately.
2015-04-29T16:09:40Z kephra: where does it stop in chrome?
2015-04-29T16:10:44Z antoszka: it displayes a large requester every now and then
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2015-04-29T16:12:16Z antoszka: and maybe even goes to an end, but you have to ack the error/warning/whatever a few times.
2015-04-29T16:12:52Z antoszka: kephra: https://antoszka.pl/tmp/bc82159ee8f763012c43b782732b19d9e91b6c9d.png ← that's what it looks like
2015-04-29T16:14:12Z contrapunctus: Anyone? A hint would suffice...
2015-04-29T16:19:21Z kephra: antoszka, *ouch* so I have to check this - there might be more browser incompatibilities - looks as if chrome only implement array.fill if chrome://flags activated experimental JS (according to mozilla page)
2015-04-29T16:19:58Z antoszka: right
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2015-04-29T16:28:03Z kephra: antoszka, did a big speedup in (display) code - reload the http://kephra.de/o3proto/r4rs-subset.html in FF plz and tell me if it improved for you
2015-04-29T16:29:14Z antoszka: kephra: yes, pretty much immediate, as well. did not even notice CPU usage approach 100%
2015-04-29T16:34:04Z kephra: *thanks* so my guess that (display) code was the reason - torturing browser by `div.innerHTML = div.innerHTML + str;` was the reason
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2015-04-29T16:36:36Z kephra: i already feared that my Scheme is so slow that r4rs test takes 30 seconds on some systems - lucky - its only IO that takes the time
2015-04-29T16:37:28Z antoszka: so it seems
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2015-04-29T16:42:55Z kephra: can you check the chrome again, if there are more alerts the the message: r.fill one?
2015-04-29T16:44:17Z kephra: if you scroll down the JS alert, it will tell you the JS line - message is the reason - in between is a lot of Lisp code to show where in Lisp it apered
2015-04-29T16:44:56Z antoszka: kephra: no warnings in Chrome this time either.
2015-04-29T16:45:03Z kephra cheers!
2015-04-29T16:45:10Z antoszka: yep! :)
2015-04-29T16:45:12Z kephra hugs antoszka for his help
2015-04-29T16:45:19Z antoszka: :)
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2015-04-29T17:21:03Z taylanub: davexunit: oh, I interpreted "web sockets" as networking sockets
2015-04-29T17:21:53Z LeoNerd: So do many people :P
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2015-04-29T18:04:13Z davexunit: taylanub: it's less confusing when people use it as a proper noun: Websocket
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2015-04-29T18:33:33Z kephra: taylanub, do you remember our discussion about (begin) yesterday?
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2015-04-29T18:33:58Z kephra: got a reply from Aubrey: The rationale for (BEGIN) is to support conditional expansion in macros.
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2015-04-29T19:04:32Z taylanub: kephra: there are two absolutely unrelated `begin' syntaxes which merely share their identifier name.  which one applies depends on whether the form appears in a "definition context" or "expression context"
2015-04-29T19:04:58Z taylanub: (in fact in R7RS there is a third `begin' syntax, which is part of the define-library DSL)
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2015-04-29T19:05:56Z taylanub: kephra: the intent of the definition-begin is indeed to help macros that want to output multiple internal definitions into a lexical scope, and zero subforms is no problem because then it's just zero internal definitions; in expression-begin zero subforms is not allowed because it would be unclear what value it should return
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2015-04-30T01:14:49Z teurastaja: ((lambda (x) (x x)) (lambda (x) (x x)))
2015-04-30T01:14:54Z teurastaja: mouahaha!
2015-04-30T01:15:18Z teurastaja: immense power at my fingertips :P
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2015-04-30T04:35:06Z RexButler: Is it just me, or is foldr easier to implement recursively and foldl, on the other hand, easier to implement iteratively?
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2015-04-30T05:12:00Z e2x: RexButler: Ease has nothing to do with it. The correct algorithms are just that way.
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2015-04-30T05:13:26Z e2x: Because foldr combines the last elements of the list first, it has to be recursive unless you reverse the list.
2015-04-30T05:14:16Z RexButler: Yes that is what I mean
2015-04-30T05:16:13Z e2x: Likewise, written without reversing the list, foldl will be iterative.
2015-04-30T05:17:06Z e2x: You can write it in recursive notation, but it will be tail recursion, which is equivalent to iteration.
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2015-04-30T05:23:51Z RexButler: Now I'm getting a little better at scheme I need to build something nice/noteworthy enough to put on my github account
2015-04-30T05:23:57Z RexButler: So I need a project idea
2015-04-30T05:24:17Z RexButler: Nothing fancy, just something that proves I can code in scheme
2015-04-30T05:31:41Z RexButler: I could do the eight queens problem
2015-04-30T05:31:42Z RexButler: ?
2015-04-30T05:31:51Z RexButler: Any other ideas?
2015-04-30T05:34:33Z wasamasa: write me a SRFI atom feed
2015-04-30T05:35:46Z wasamasa: or is that too real-world?
2015-04-30T05:36:20Z RexButler: SRFI?
2015-04-30T05:36:40Z RexButler: Nevermind, I googled it.
2015-04-30T05:36:51Z e2x: sudoku solver
2015-04-30T05:36:56Z RexButler: That would be a challenge at my present level of expertise
2015-04-30T05:37:06Z RexButler: e2x:  THat would be tricky, I can imagine
2015-04-30T05:37:11Z RexButler: But good idea.
2015-04-30T05:37:15Z wasamasa: not really
2015-04-30T05:37:25Z wasamasa: implement prolog in scheme and it solves itself eventually :D
2015-04-30T05:39:12Z RexButler: Implementing prolog in scheme sounds fun
2015-04-30T05:42:00Z RexButler: I could also do the rules of chess
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2015-04-30T05:42:06Z RexButler: But that has so many special cases...
2015-04-30T05:42:13Z RexButler: (I've done it Java)
2015-04-30T05:42:29Z RexButler: ...
2015-04-30T05:42:47Z RexButler: What fun projects has everyone else done in scheme (or racket, lisp, clojure...)
2015-04-30T05:46:00Z RexButler: BTW, are sudoku problems supposed to have unique solutions?
2015-04-30T05:46:21Z e2x: Sudoku solvers are not tricky. Backtracking works with an iota more cleverness than brute force.
2015-04-30T05:46:47Z e2x: Not all sudoku puzzles have unique solutions.
2015-04-30T05:46:59Z RexButler: I think I will do eight queens first to warm up, then a sudoku solver
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2015-04-30T05:53:53Z Pixel_Outlaw: I always hated the Project Euler problems. They just felt pointless.
2015-04-30T05:54:22Z Pixel_Outlaw: If I'm going to waste time I'd rather do some interesting logic rather than isolation of numbers etc.
2015-04-30T05:54:24Z RexButler: I've done a few of the project euler problems
2015-04-30T05:54:31Z RexButler: Some were fun, some not so much
2015-04-30T05:54:46Z RexButler: Numbers 18 and 63 are fun
2015-04-30T05:55:11Z Pixel_Outlaw: Checkers AI might be fun.
2015-04-30T05:55:23Z Pixel_Outlaw: That has a good bit of recursion. :)
2015-04-30T05:55:24Z RexButler: You are given a triangle of numbers and are asked to find the path, top to bottom, with the smallest sum
2015-04-30T05:55:28Z RexButler: Or something like that
2015-04-30T05:58:13Z e2x: I remember those. 67, not 63, is the one related to 18.
2015-04-30T05:58:48Z RexButler: yes, thanks
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2015-04-30T06:03:25Z RexButler: How do you write foldl recursively rather than iteratively?
2015-04-30T06:04:07Z RexButler: How about a special case: write reverse recursively
2015-04-30T06:04:17Z RexButler: I can do it, but it uses append which seems like cheating
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2015-04-30T06:11:54Z e2x: Here is my definition of foldl:
2015-04-30T06:11:56Z e2x:      revert-buffer
2015-04-30T06:12:27Z e2x:      revert-buffer
2015-04-30T06:13:04Z e2x: sorry, realized I can't paste for some reason
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2015-04-30T06:14:59Z e2x: pastebin.com/ggt4cUSW
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2015-04-30T16:47:13Z teurastaja: hey, im a noob with macros (never use them) and i want to add an extra parameter to this function so that the extra parameter is an identifier enclosing the 'body parameter (that is, an identifier that is bound to x)
2015-04-30T16:47:18Z teurastaja: (define (traverse f end body)
2015-04-30T16:47:20Z teurastaja:   (do ([x (f end) (f x)]) ((eq? x end)) (body x)))
2015-04-30T16:47:37Z teurastaja: this is a circular data structure but dont worry
2015-04-30T16:51:10Z teurastaja: would this do it?:
2015-04-30T16:51:14Z teurastaja: (define-syntax traverse
2015-04-30T16:51:15Z teurastaja:   (syntax-rules ()
2015-04-30T16:51:17Z teurastaja:     [(_ identifier f end body)
2015-04-30T16:51:18Z teurastaja: 	 (do ([x (f end) (f x)]) ((eq? x end))
2015-04-30T16:51:20Z teurastaja: 	   (((lambda (identifier) body)) x))]))
2015-04-30T16:52:01Z teurastaja: or am i totally off track?
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2015-04-30T16:54:18Z teurastaja: by doing this i just want to avoid writing the lambda part of body by passing it as an argument identifier that binds identifier to x
2015-04-30T16:54:32Z teurastaja: does this do what i intend?
2015-04-30T16:56:22Z teurastaja: a bit like receive does
2015-04-30T16:57:27Z teurastaja: is there anyone online?
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2015-04-30T17:01:55Z teurastaja: so instead of writing (traverse right headers (lambda (arg) body)) id have (traverse arg right headers body where (lambda (arg) ...) is wrapped around body
2015-04-30T17:02:16Z teurastaja: *so instead of writing (traverse right headers (lambda (arg) body)) id have (traverse arg right headers body) where (lambda (arg) ...) is wrapped around body
2015-04-30T17:02:45Z teurastaja: hello...?
2015-04-30T17:03:00Z ijp: 1. try it and see
2015-04-30T17:03:05Z ijp: 2. yes
2015-04-30T17:03:12Z teurastaja: it works?
2015-04-30T17:03:27Z teurastaja: it does what i want?
2015-04-30T17:04:24Z ijp: I don't see why not
2015-04-30T17:06:18Z teurastaja: im just writing a huge program and found no descent r7rs compliant compiler to avoid rewriting my portable code into some non-portable code. So yesterday i studied define-syntax and syntax-rules and im trying to make my code as clean as possible before testing it because its gonna be very big
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2015-04-30T17:08:43Z teurastaja: for someone who wants the practicality of gauche and perfect compliance with r7rs without hacks everywhere to transform a r4rs compiler into a r7rs, which would you recommend that actually HAS some documentation?
2015-04-30T17:09:21Z wasamasa: CHICKEN is practical
2015-04-30T17:09:26Z wasamasa: it's not r7rs though
2015-04-30T17:10:16Z teurastaja: i want good srfi support and clean r7rs interface, not some bunch of stacked up hacks from the 1990s
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2015-04-30T17:10:29Z teurastaja: thats all I need
2015-04-30T17:10:43Z wasamasa: well, some day it will support r7rs-small I guess
2015-04-30T17:10:46Z teurastaja: dont want to render my code in a non-portable way
2015-04-30T17:10:55Z wasamasa: uh, that's inevitable, really
2015-04-30T17:11:01Z wasamasa: unless you're a SRFI writer
2015-04-30T17:11:04Z teurastaja: because i already wrote it in a portable way
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2015-04-30T17:12:51Z teurastaja: is there an implementation of r7rs that isnt made from hacks on an old r[456]rs implementation? one that is mature enough
2015-04-30T17:13:13Z wasamasa: r7rs is pretty new
2015-04-30T17:13:23Z wasamasa: so, I doubt that there's anything qualifying as mature
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2015-04-30T17:13:48Z teurastaja: im kind of tired of reading doc that explains the difference between use import require load module etc...
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2015-04-30T17:14:57Z teurastaja: is chibi scheme as good as, say, gambit for practical stuff?
2015-04-30T17:15:09Z ijp: wasamasa: following the r6rs precedent, if there are only half a dozen implementations after two years, we can call r7rs a failure
2015-04-30T17:15:41Z teurastaja: r7rs is the best thing that could happen but its way too late
2015-04-30T17:16:05Z wasamasa: teurastaja: after reading about someone finding bugs in its implementation on a regular basis, I doubt that
2015-04-30T17:16:11Z ijp: well, one of those statements is true
2015-04-30T17:16:41Z wasamasa: ijp: the jury is still not set on what shall make it into r7rs-large!
2015-04-30T17:17:46Z ijp: it will never be finished, because jcowan is planning a sisyphus-like task of specifying every function anyone will ever want
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2015-04-30T17:17:59Z teurastaja: way too long to debate of syntax and semantics and agree on a standard. im learning haskell because of that. there is no large scheme language until several years and i waited years just for r7rs-small to appear
2015-04-30T17:18:01Z wasamasa: that name sounds familiar to me
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2015-04-30T17:19:19Z wasamasa: I recall that guy annoying the heck out of the CHICKEN mailing list with uneducated guessing of compiler internals
2015-04-30T17:20:22Z teurastaja: the commitee should remember that in computing world, if things go too slow people drop it. most people will never wait to see r7rs-large
2015-04-30T17:20:48Z wasamasa: teurastaja: you almost make it sound like scheme isn't a niche language
2015-04-30T17:20:59Z teurastaja: niche?
2015-04-30T17:21:05Z wasamasa: yup
2015-04-30T17:21:11Z teurastaja: whats that?
2015-04-30T17:21:14Z wasamasa: ...
2015-04-30T17:21:19Z ijp: it means basically no-one actually cares about it
2015-04-30T17:21:23Z wasamasa: ^
2015-04-30T17:22:07Z wasamasa: "There's two kinds of programming languages, the ones people are complaining about and the ones nobody's using."
2015-04-30T17:22:49Z LeoNerd: Hehe
2015-04-30T17:23:03Z wasamasa: or something like that, can't be bothered to find the original
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2015-04-30T17:24:23Z teurastaja: no. i care too much about it to leave it but think about the average programmer who wants a language to get things done. without r7rs-large of course we can do stuff, but we have to make it from scratch all the time and make sure it can actually be compiled by some implementation
2015-04-30T17:25:12Z teurastaja: you cant simply write code using the standard alone
2015-04-30T17:25:16Z wasamasa: ah, the sunk cost fallacy
2015-04-30T17:25:39Z teurastaja: and thats bad
2015-04-30T17:26:12Z wasamasa: the average programmer who wants to get shit done will most likely use what they already know well
2015-04-30T17:26:20Z wasamasa: like, php, ruby, python, java, ...
2015-04-30T17:26:25Z davexunit: I say just pick your implementation and go.  Scheme is a family of languages.
2015-04-30T17:26:29Z wasamasa: ^
2015-04-30T17:27:02Z teurastaja: yes, but i have to rewrite my code everytime i port it to a different compiler
2015-04-30T17:27:12Z wasamasa: why would you do that?
2015-04-30T17:27:15Z davexunit: why do you port it?
2015-04-30T17:27:19Z wasamasa: are you getting paid for it?
2015-04-30T17:27:24Z teurastaja: no
2015-04-30T17:27:32Z teurastaja: just for fun
2015-04-30T17:27:36Z wasamasa: sounds deeply irrational
2015-04-30T17:27:54Z davexunit: basically, each scheme implementation is its own unique language.
2015-04-30T17:28:44Z teurastaja: name one implementation i could use only r7rs and srfis and nothing else to learn or modify and ill be happy
2015-04-30T17:29:12Z teurastaja: so far each implementation i tried required changes
2015-04-30T17:29:14Z wasamasa: also note that SRFI will most probably die
2015-04-30T17:29:40Z teurastaja: if it dies we have nothing else currently....
2015-04-30T17:29:47Z wasamasa: yup
2015-04-30T17:30:05Z wasamasa: http://www.reddit.com/r/scheme/comments/2z5ndo/retiring_srfi/
2015-04-30T17:30:25Z davexunit: I thought someone stepped up to maintain it
2015-04-30T17:30:39Z wasamasa: who?
2015-04-30T17:31:07Z wasamasa: oh, indeed: http://permalink.gmane.org/gmane.lisp.scheme.srfi.announce/117
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2015-04-30T17:35:34Z wasamasa: well, that's nice
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2015-04-30T21:20:33Z teurastaja: ((call-with-current-continuation (lambda (k) k)) (call-with-current-continuation (lambda (k) k)))
2015-04-30T21:20:49Z teurastaja: *yawn*
2015-04-30T21:22:30Z teurastaja: maybe life is just a continuation of continuations
2015-04-30T21:24:16Z teurastaja: but what would be the first continuation then?
2015-04-30T21:24:31Z teurastaja: its last?
2015-04-30T21:25:48Z teurastaja: (define universe 0)
2015-04-30T21:28:25Z teurastaja: besides the usual applications of continuations, what sexy computation that i dont know of can be defined? i mean besides coroutines and loops and ifs and bla bla bla
2015-04-30T21:29:20Z teurastaja: how do you define mutations with call/cc?
2015-04-30T21:29:40Z teurastaja: say, define set! using call/cc
2015-04-30T21:30:18Z ijp: if you don't count the hack that takes advantage of mutation in letrec, you can't,
2015-04-30T21:30:42Z ijp: continuations don't touch the store
2015-04-30T21:31:12Z teurastaja: what about using the y combinator instead of letrec?
2015-04-30T21:32:19Z ijp: there is no mutation involved there, so the hack would fail
2015-04-30T21:32:57Z ijp: it doesn't even work in every implementation of letrec
2015-04-30T21:33:14Z teurastaja: but surely letrec could be defined with the y combinator no?
2015-04-30T21:33:24Z taylanub: there's a hack to implement set! with letrec and call/cc? O_o
2015-04-30T21:33:37Z ijp: something like that
2015-04-30T21:33:43Z taylanub: people be crazy
2015-04-30T21:33:56Z ijp: as I said, it depends on the way letrec was implemented
2015-04-30T21:34:26Z taylanub: hmm, I can kinda imagine how that works yeah
2015-04-30T21:34:37Z ijp: it's an extension of one of the things in r5rs-pitfalls
2015-04-30T21:34:41Z teurastaja: im just guessing since ((lambda (x) (x x)) (lambda (x) (x x)) seems like mutual recursion
2015-04-30T21:35:22Z teurastaja: how would you define letrec with that?
2015-04-30T21:35:32Z ijp: you don't
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2015-04-30T21:36:25Z teurastaja: damn... but the haskellers use it all the time to define recursion
2015-04-30T21:36:54Z ijp: https://groups.google.com/forum/#!msg/comp.lang.scheme/cxbti-YRs7U/gDGTpkpROgYJ
2015-04-30T21:36:57Z rudybot: http://tinyurl.com/ncgx2z7
2015-04-30T21:38:44Z ijp: it's kind of annoying to do a fully general letrec in terms of fixed point combinators
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2015-04-30T21:39:14Z teurastaja: but its doable right?
2015-04-30T21:39:23Z teurastaja: its just lambdas...
2015-04-30T21:39:31Z teurastaja: how do you do it?
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2015-04-30T21:40:21Z ijp: I'm hoping I have one written already, because otherwise, I'm not bothering
2015-04-30T21:40:37Z ijp: try it for yourself, it isn't difficult, just tedious
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2015-04-30T21:44:12Z ijp: https://gist.github.com/ijp/10435657
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2015-04-30T21:53:55Z teurastaja: thanks
2015-04-30T21:54:06Z teurastaja: first, is this definition correct? (define (fix f) (f (fix f)))
2015-04-30T21:55:15Z ijp: not in an eager languae
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2015-04-30T22:15:04Z teurastaja: and set! would be extracted how?
2015-04-30T22:20:43Z ijp: from the above code, AFAIK, you can't
2015-04-30T22:23:08Z Pixel_Outlaw: I wonder what it is like to start with Scheme as a first language then be plunged into a C like language next. I assume that was what happened with the SICP students.
2015-04-30T22:23:38Z Pixel_Outlaw: Suddenly it is iteration, modifying data, and memory management as far as the eye can see.
2015-04-30T22:23:52Z Pixel_Outlaw: Granted we are talking MIT quality students...
2015-04-30T22:24:12Z ijp: which they had spent one chapter out of five learning about
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2015-04-30T22:41:29Z turbofail: a lot of those students came in already familiar with imperative programming
2015-04-30T22:46:24Z Pixel_Outlaw: I think he mentioned having guests from the corporate world there at one episode. I can't imagine what they'd want with Scheme. I'd assume COBOL and RPG would be more company approved.
2015-04-30T22:48:33Z ijp: Pixel_Outlaw: the sicp video lectures? those students were hewlett packard employees
2015-04-30T22:49:08Z Pixel_Outlaw: Excellent memory thanks.
2015-04-30T22:49:37Z Pixel_Outlaw: Wonder what HP was up to with Lisp.
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2015-04-30T22:51:46Z Pixel_Outlaw: I'm only curious since I enjoy computer history a bit more than the present.
2015-04-30T22:57:29Z fds: My first programming language was Scheme, by the way.  But I'm a terrible programmer in any language. :-)
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2015-04-30T22:59:51Z Pixel_Outlaw: Well at least you had a real first programming language. I started with the first version of Gamer Maker, then learned Blitzmax, then went back to C++, later I learned Python, then Common Lisp, then Scheme, now working on Perl which is gradually doing brain damage I fear.
2015-04-30T23:01:24Z Pixel_Outlaw: Actually my first programming language was LOGOwriter on the Apple ][e in elementary school.
2015-04-30T23:05:53Z Pixel_Outlaw: Ah ok looks like HP was competing with Symbolics and LISP machines Inc.
2015-04-30T23:05:57Z Pixel_Outlaw: HP-UX
2015-04-30T23:06:21Z Pixel_Outlaw: "The later work was done in HP's really cool LISP environment on the 9000/300 series machines. It was Common LISP running in the X11 windowing system under HP-UX with a development shell that HP wrote to complete with LISP Machines, Inc and Symbolics."
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