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2015-02-04T11:00:53Z dmiles: is there a CL interp implemented in Scheme?
2015-02-04T11:01:18Z LeoNerd: It wouldn't surprise me
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2015-02-04T11:07:35Z dmiles: if a URL is known for one let me know
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2015-02-04T11:14:19Z dmiles: ok think i found https://www.cs.cmu.edu/afs/cs/project/ai-repository/ai/lang/lisp/impl/bbn/
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2015-02-06T14:04:25Z taspat: hi, how does LGPL racket relate to some program written in it? Can one make the sofware written in racket propietary software, but have include the whole racket with its LGPL license. What if you extend something in racket and not directly modify does it also mean "derived work in GPL speak"? Macros are compile-time source code transformations, so like compiler extensions. Does then the program also have to LGPL?
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2015-02-06T14:05:02Z taspat: it is so confusing..
2015-02-06T14:06:07Z vraid: taspat: did you look at this? http://download.racket-lang.org/license.html
2015-02-06T14:06:20Z taspat: vraid
2015-02-06T14:06:25Z taspat: yes
2015-02-06T14:06:31Z vraid: "Second, if you distribute your Racket application as compiled binary generated by raco exe, there are no requirements placed on the licensing of your software."
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2015-02-06T14:10:43Z vraid: taspat: you can use whichever license you want for your own code, and make it proprietary
2015-02-06T14:10:45Z taspat: vraid, yeah, but they also say in that page:We are, of course, not lawyers, and this should not be taken as legal advice.
2015-02-06T14:11:00Z taspat: then from here: http://docs.racket-lang.org/license/index.html?q=
2015-02-06T14:11:04Z taspat: You can link Racket software into proprietary applications, provided you follow the specific rules stated in the LGPL.
2015-02-06T14:11:34Z vraid: yes, the LGPL-specific code has to be available to the user
2015-02-06T14:12:07Z vraid: and if you modify any LGPL code, it also has to be released as LGPL
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2015-02-06T14:14:07Z taspat: vraid, so you must ship your application with let's your closed license + a folder with racket implemention?
2015-02-06T14:14:25Z taspat: which is under LGPL?
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2015-02-06T14:24:32Z vraid: taspat: not even that i think
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2015-02-06T14:25:00Z vraid: taspat: it depends on how the application is compiled
2015-02-06T14:26:16Z vraid: if someone asks for it, you should provide them with the files necessary to change the lgpl libraries to a newer version
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2015-02-06T14:27:43Z vraid: but it doesn't have to be provided preemtively
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2015-02-06T14:29:03Z taspat: vraid, thanks, and why do think PLT has chosen this type of license, where mostly everyone else choose MIT, BSD on their prgramming languages?
2015-02-06T14:29:19Z taspat: what is the benefit for them?
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2015-02-06T14:34:19Z vraid: good question
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2015-02-06T14:47:15Z vraid: taspat: it's a matter of values i suppose
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2015-02-06T15:56:59Z kuribas: Hi, I am looking at the Kawa scheme compiler.  Why isn't it more popular?  It looks like it is a good compiler with good performance and java integration.  Still you don't hear much about it, mostly clojure and scala.
2015-02-06T15:58:07Z ecraven: kuribas: I've used it for some android apps, works very well
2015-02-06T16:00:02Z pjb: kuribas: there's even abcl, a full CL implementation on the JVM…
2015-02-06T16:00:06Z mario-goulart: kuribas: Scheme has never been good at the "popularity" thing. :-)
2015-02-06T16:00:20Z pjb: kuribas: it's only that people are dazzled by anything with the "new" stamp on it.
2015-02-06T16:00:23Z pjb: Crazy people.
2015-02-06T16:00:36Z mario-goulart: Lisps, in general, actually.
2015-02-06T16:00:37Z kuribas: yeah
2015-02-06T16:00:55Z kuribas: My impression is that clisp is a bit more popular than scheme.
2015-02-06T16:01:09Z mario-goulart: Common Lisp?
2015-02-06T16:01:24Z kuribas: yes
2015-02-06T16:01:26Z pjb: clisp is an implementation.  Is bigloo more popular than COBOL?
2015-02-06T16:01:34Z kuribas: sorry I meant Common Lisp
2015-02-06T16:01:49Z wasamasa: just refer to CL when you're speaking of the language
2015-02-06T16:01:51Z mario-goulart: It probably is.  Hard to tell.
2015-02-06T16:01:59Z kuribas: wasamasa: ah ok.
2015-02-06T16:02:25Z z0d: kuribas: why does it matter which language is more popular?
2015-02-06T16:02:51Z kuribas: z0d: it matters because more popularity means a better ecosystem, more libraries, better support...
2015-02-06T16:03:10Z mario-goulart: Also when you propose you boss using the said language.
2015-02-06T16:03:20Z z0d: in that case, you should use Java or Python :-P
2015-02-06T16:03:37Z mario-goulart: Because they are ... popular.
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2015-02-06T16:03:53Z z0d: also, there's Factor, which is quite unknown, but has a miriad of library and helpful people
2015-02-06T16:04:26Z kuribas: z0d: I have no boss :)
2015-02-06T16:05:16Z kuribas: For my project it doesn't really matter, since I am the only programmer :)
2015-02-06T16:05:16Z wasamasa: kuribas: well, to be honest, I prefer getting useful answers from a few people on #chicken (channel of a more popular scheme implementation) over the atmosphere on #python
2015-02-06T16:05:28Z kuribas: wasamasa: right :)
2015-02-06T16:06:11Z kuribas: That's the advantage of a small dedicated group :)
2015-02-06T16:06:15Z wasamasa: where I couldn't even get code critique
2015-02-06T16:06:35Z wasamasa: and people seemed to be annoyed by others who just wanted someone else to do their CS homework
2015-02-06T16:07:16Z wasamasa: but yes, I can understand your worries about getting into it in the first place
2015-02-06T16:08:35Z mario-goulart: kuribas: out of curiosity: what do you intend to use Scheme for?  Business?  Personal projects?  Other things?
2015-02-06T16:09:39Z kuribas: mario-goulart: I want to write a pente UI and engine for android.
2015-02-06T16:10:18Z kuribas: Hopefully make a little money from it.
2015-02-06T16:10:20Z mario-goulart: What's pente?
2015-02-06T16:10:37Z kuribas: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pente
2015-02-06T16:10:43Z kuribas: A variation of 5 in a row.
2015-02-06T16:11:06Z vraid: kuribas: for cross-platform, there's also lambdanative https://github.com/part-cw/lambdanative
2015-02-06T16:11:16Z ecraven: kuribas: there's little documentation on it, but as I said, kawa works very well with android, no startup time problems like many others, for example
2015-02-06T16:11:46Z mario-goulart: kuribas: ah, cool.
2015-02-06T16:11:46Z kuribas: vraid: great, thanks!
2015-02-06T16:11:48Z z0d: wow. I played this game 1000 years ago in DOS
2015-02-06T16:12:21Z kuribas: I wanted to play it on my tablet, then I noticed there is no version that I can run, so I though, why not write it :)
2015-02-06T16:12:45Z mario-goulart: kuribas: CHICKEN is known to work on android too.  Some products for android based on it have been released recently.
2015-02-06T16:13:27Z kuribas: mario-goulart: yeah, via the ndk.
2015-02-06T16:13:37Z mario-goulart: right
2015-02-06T16:13:56Z kuribas: But I wanted to avoid a portability headache :)
2015-02-06T16:13:58Z gnomon: Doesn't Gambit also run natively on Android?
2015-02-06T16:14:12Z mario-goulart: gnomon: I think so.
2015-02-06T16:14:22Z gnomon: https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=org.keithflower.gambit&hl=en
2015-02-06T16:14:23Z mario-goulart: kuribas: what do you mean?
2015-02-06T16:14:45Z mario-goulart: I'm refering to "portability headache".
2015-02-06T16:16:10Z kuribas: mario-goulart: well, the ndk uses native code, so you have to check the source on different architectures.
2015-02-06T16:16:27Z kuribas: Although most devices would be arm I guess.
2015-02-06T16:17:19Z mario-goulart: Does it make any difference when you are using scheme?
2015-02-06T16:18:13Z kuribas: maybe not...
2015-02-06T16:19:01Z mario-goulart: That's a bit of a trollish question, I know.  Of you course it does, although it shouldn't.  You'll probably have to interface C and/or Java to get things done.
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2015-02-06T16:20:39Z wasamasa: kuribas: don't worry, you'll have headaches getting interop with these walled gardens either way :P
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2015-02-06T16:20:56Z wasamasa: kuribas: unless you pay someone else to do that
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2015-02-06T16:23:09Z kuribas: Anyway, I can always make the engine in pure scheme, then worry about platform issues later.
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2015-02-06T16:25:51Z wasamasa: it's a bit sad, but that's the way these platforms are
2015-02-06T16:25:57Z wasamasa: not intended for general computing at all
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2015-02-06T16:33:18Z pjb: wasamasa: this is only shortsightedness.
2015-02-06T16:33:41Z pjb: just like PCs between 1974 and 1982 weren't intended for general computing.
2015-02-06T16:35:21Z wasamasa: pjb: well, let's hope it will pass
2015-02-06T16:39:27Z kuribas: "Notably, using native code on Android generally does not result in a noticable performance improvement, but it always increases your app complexity."
2015-02-06T16:39:50Z kuribas: But: "Typical good candidates for the NDK are CPU-intensive workloads such as game engines, signal processing, physics simulation, and so on."
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2015-02-06T16:40:50Z kuribas: It also depends on how good gambit-C is in compiling to C...
2015-02-06T16:41:36Z kuribas: But I prefer to focus on algorithmic improvements in speed, rather than microoptimization.
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2015-02-06T16:44:54Z kuribas: If I could write an incredible smart game engine in scheme, than I could always rewrite it in C in the end, if necessary.
2015-02-06T16:46:34Z pjb: If necessary to make it worse?  When would that be?
2015-02-06T16:47:53Z kuribas: pjb: Well, when I cannot improve speed in another way...
2015-02-06T16:48:18Z wasamasa: first figure out how fast it is and whether there are bottlenecks you can't get away at all
2015-02-06T16:48:44Z kuribas: In a game engine you can always use more speed...
2015-02-06T16:50:35Z z0d: not always
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2015-02-06T16:51:18Z kuribas: z0d: well, more speed usually means stronger moves.
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2015-02-06T16:52:30Z z0d: sorry, I thought you were meaning it in a global sense.
2015-02-06T16:52:37Z z0d: not only for Pente
2015-02-06T16:53:23Z kuribas: z0d: yeah, I meant for boardgames in particular.
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2015-02-06T16:55:40Z z0d: I wrote a simple tower defense game in Scheme and speed was fine. but that's not a game where the "computer thinks"
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2015-02-06T16:56:17Z kuribas: z0d: nice
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2015-02-06T17:01:02Z pjb: z0d: I'd expect better results for games where the computer thinks when written in lisp than in C.  (actually, in all cases. http://cliki.net/performance )
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2015-02-06T17:04:13Z z0d: https://www.lrde.epita.fr/~didier/research/verna.06.ecoop.pdf
2015-02-06T17:04:14Z z0d: this one?
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2015-02-06T17:12:24Z z0d: pjb: I'm a bit sceptical, but I'll read that paper
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2015-02-06T17:27:16Z kraehe: kuribas, if speed does not matter: pick a scheme that is written in js, and execute it within some cordova ;-)
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2015-02-06T18:12:31Z z0d: pjb: so this paper only proves that CMUCL is faster than GCC in their tests
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2015-02-06T18:18:40Z kraehe: z0d, this was well known fact, even in the good old days when william shelter was still alive
2015-02-06T18:19:55Z kraehe: you can find edge cases, where a good lisp implementation outperforms most hand written C (or even ASM) code
2015-02-06T18:20:40Z kraehe: because the complexity of the problem requires to implement a lisp engine, e.g. parsing and eval of regular expressions
2015-02-06T18:20:51Z z0d: in general I think a decent C compiler would beat a decent Common Lisp compler.
2015-02-06T18:21:07Z z0d: but it's not speed why people choose CL over C
2015-02-06T18:21:33Z kraehe: no, its because the manual is so nice and big
2015-02-06T18:21:36Z kraehe ducks for cover
2015-02-06T18:23:03Z kraehe: I fear my scheme or lisp look like will be pretty slow - but thats nothing I care about in my domain
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2015-02-06T18:23:21Z vanila: are you making a compiler kraehe ?
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2015-02-06T18:25:10Z kraehe: a complete framework, runtime environment for a special but very common domain: database applications
2015-02-06T18:25:25Z vanila: cool :D
2015-02-06T18:25:42Z vanila: if you want to compete with C in terms of speed, you could try to generate C code
2015-02-06T18:25:54Z kraehe: think about an EMACS for databases, using some scheme/lisp like language running browser/server
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2015-02-06T18:39:10Z kraehe: http://kephra.de/o3proto/unloop.html <- btw is there a name of the ping/pong loop in contCode() http://kephra.de/o3proto/unloop.js
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2015-02-06T19:24:12Z pointed_set: Hello! Howdy I define-syntax-scheme to transform, like (a b c -> b c a) into (lambda (a b c) (b c a))?
2015-02-06T19:24:39Z vanila: you cannot do that
2015-02-06T19:24:59Z vanila: the macro name has to be in the CAR of the form
2015-02-06T19:25:08Z vanila: i.e. (mymacro a b c -> b c a) you could do
2015-02-06T19:27:37Z pointed_set: Hm, so (a b c . -> . b c a) for macro called "->" wont work too?
2015-02-06T19:28:10Z vanila: thats right, lisp only looks at the head of ecah form to decide what it is
2015-02-06T19:28:41Z pointed_set: Ok, looks like the form (fun a b c -> b a c) is fine for me
2015-02-06T19:29:00Z turbofail: you could even do (λ a b c -> b a c)
2015-02-06T19:29:22Z turbofail: though depending on your scheme implementation it may already use λ as an alias for lambda
2015-02-06T19:30:05Z kraehe: λ or Λ?
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2015-02-06T19:31:03Z pointed_set: I use racket, for now
2015-02-06T19:32:42Z pointed_set: How do I match all remaining things after "->" token ?
2015-02-06T19:34:16Z vanila: (syntax-rules (->) ((fun a ... -> b ...) (lambda (a ...) ( b...)))
2015-02-06T19:34:26Z vanila: the -> symbol is listed in the syntax-rules special symbols part
2015-02-06T19:34:30Z turbofail: (syntax-rules (->) ((λ args ... -> body ...) (lambda (args ...) body ...)))
2015-02-06T19:34:39Z vanila: and then the ... pattern will match it
2015-02-06T19:34:47Z vanila: well, not match it
2015-02-06T19:36:29Z pointed_set: Eh, interpreter told me, that ellipsis cannot follow another ellipsis in pattern
2015-02-06T19:36:50Z turbofail: hm
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2015-02-06T19:37:04Z pjb: yes, in pattern.
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2015-02-06T19:37:43Z vanila: http://lpaste.net/120099
2015-02-06T19:37:46Z vanila: it works ok
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2015-02-06T19:39:01Z pointed_set: http://lpaste.net/120100
2015-02-06T19:39:05Z turbofail: well racket definitely doesn't like it
2015-02-06T19:39:12Z pointed_set: No, in my case it is not
2015-02-06T19:39:23Z pointed_set: So, only schema
2015-02-06T19:39:28Z pointed_set: * e
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2015-02-06T19:41:47Z turbofail: guile is OK with it though
2015-02-06T19:42:06Z vanila: You could implement it with direct recursion
2015-02-06T19:42:10Z vanila: it is a lot harder though
2015-02-06T19:42:17Z vanila: I don't recommend i
2015-02-06T19:42:18Z vanila: t
2015-02-06T19:42:31Z pointed_set: Chicken scheme doesn't like the (fun x -> x)
2015-02-06T19:42:42Z turbofail: hm.  this discrepancy is most interesting
2015-02-06T19:43:58Z vanila: im using chicken scheme and it is ok with it
2015-02-06T19:44:11Z vanila: oh, you're right though!
2015-02-06T19:44:23Z vanila: for that partcular invokation..
2015-02-06T19:44:28Z pointed_set: The (fun x -> x)? What version are you using?
2015-02-06T19:44:43Z vanila: yeah I get an error for (fun x -> x), I didn't expect that!
2015-02-06T19:45:06Z pointed_set: Btw, my guile refuses to accept that syntax-rule
2015-02-06T19:45:19Z turbofail: hm.  mine accepted it
2015-02-06T19:45:40Z pointed_set: guile (GNU Guile) 2.0.11
2015-02-06T19:45:48Z turbofail: though it fails to expand the macro
2015-02-06T19:46:05Z pointed_set: Try the (fun a b -> a b)
2015-02-06T19:46:41Z turbofail: i just said it fails to expand the macro
2015-02-06T19:47:57Z turbofail: well there's always syntax-case to fall back on
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2015-02-06T19:55:51Z pointed_set: I discovered, that (define-syntax-rule (fun x ... ->) '(x ...)) actually thinks, that -> is a var name
2015-02-06T19:56:25Z pointed_set: (fun x ->) ==> '(x) but (fun x -> y) ==> '(x ->)
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2015-02-06T19:58:55Z pointed_set: when I quote the arrow, racket accepts it, but then it says that (fun x y (quote ->) x y) doesn't match (fun x ... (quote ->) y...)
2015-02-06T19:59:31Z pointed_set: its magic
2015-02-06T20:06:26Z kraehe: *hm* if a lisp like language implements lists as arrays, and does not have no internal cons cells and no dot in the syntax: is this still a lisp or scheme?
2015-02-06T20:08:37Z pointed_set: if you can call do (lambda (f x) (f x)) its a scheme, if you need to do (lambda (f x) (apply f x)) - a lisp
2015-02-06T20:09:45Z pointed_set: lisp has different namespaces for names in car & cdr positions, as I remember
2015-02-06T20:13:48Z kraehe: my point is: if lists are arrays, and if there are no implicit cons cells, then neither (foo . bar) or even (foo bar . baz) are possible
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2015-02-06T20:14:32Z kraehe: the question is a lisp like language without cons cells, but with lists still a lisp?
2015-02-06T20:14:55Z gnomon: kraehe, unless the implementation internally translates those into two-element arrays and stuffs a pointer in the second element...
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2015-02-06T20:16:09Z gnomon: kraehe, my point is that trying to ascribe language semantics to implementation details is either an exercise in shoving a square peg into a round hole *or* a type error, depending on your mindset.
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2015-02-06T20:37:48Z vanila: it might be a lisp who cares?
2015-02-06T20:37:53Z vanila: that's just a word
2015-02-06T20:38:03Z vanila: more important is if it's an interesting or useful language
2015-02-06T20:38:20Z kraehe: i hope it will be usefull, soon ;-)
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2015-02-06T22:13:47Z cojy_: has anyone made a version of lenses for scheme yet? i really wish we could leverage their power
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2015-02-06T22:14:59Z vanila: im workin on an automatical transpile from haskel to scheme that will port the library
2015-02-06T22:15:13Z cojy_: awesome!
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2015-02-06T22:22:03Z ilammy: Ohai! Is there any way to write a self-referential syntax-rules macro in R7RS?
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2015-02-06T22:23:02Z ilammy: So that, for example, (foo a b c) can be defined to expand into (syntax-error (foo a b c))
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2015-02-06T22:23:59Z vanila: hi ilammy :)
2015-02-06T22:24:11Z vanila: i tried your good CK stuff out in sagittarius scheme, works well
2015-02-06T22:25:49Z ilammy: Hi! You're welcome. I am glad that thing is useful not only to me.
2015-02-06T22:26:42Z vanila: I looked at R7RS spec and I don't think there's any way to do that other than copying the whole macro invocation into the error message
2015-02-06T22:27:21Z vanila: maybe you could have a helpermacro that does ((mac x) (internal-mac x x))
2015-02-06T22:27:32Z vanila: then (internal-mac self (pattern))  can use self in errors
2015-02-06T22:28:10Z ilammy: Ugh, like... (foo a b c (foo a b c)
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2015-02-06T22:28:25Z vanila: (foo (foo a b c) a b c) i was thinking
2015-02-06T22:29:01Z vanila: it would even be possible to make a new macro system which handes this (as a very thin wrapper over syntax-rules)
2015-02-06T22:30:04Z ilammy: Well, I tried to do (define-syntax foo (syntax-rules () ((_ stuff ...) (syntax-error "123" (foo stuff ...)))))
2015-02-06T22:30:27Z ilammy: And I get (#<SC 12321 foo> a b c), which is syntactic closure notation of Chibi...
2015-02-06T22:30:57Z vanila: oh no, the internals are leaking out :|
2015-02-06T22:30:59Z vanila: i wonder if it's a bug
2015-02-06T22:31:52Z ilammy: Come to think of it... If I define that foo as 'foo' in my library, the user can import it as 'bar' into their code.
2015-02-06T22:32:40Z ilammy: Then my expansion into (foo a b c) will be nonsense, as it should be (bar a b c). But foo is not aware that it is now bar.
2015-02-06T22:33:02Z ilammy: So... ugh... that syntactic closure thing makes sense.
2015-02-06T22:33:43Z vanila: ah..
2015-02-06T22:36:19Z ilammy: So yeah. I believe the only way that will work would be to define something like (with-fancy-errors (foo a b c) ...)
2015-02-06T22:37:02Z ilammy: that will convert all (foo stuff ...) into (foo (foo stuff ...) stuff ...) that now can be expanded into (syntax-error (foo stuff ...)) as it is now a macro argument
2015-02-06T22:38:12Z ilammy: That's ugly :(
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2015-02-06T22:38:46Z vanila: ("foo" stuff ...) maybe? it's a bad idea too but :S
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2015-02-06T22:45:38Z ilammy: Meh... okay... I didn't need that error reporting anyway.
2015-02-06T22:46:14Z ilammy: Don't think that "Invalid language definition on line 42" is more cryptic than "Invalid language definition on line 42: (define-language)"
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2015-02-14T17:09:28Z kraehe: taylanub, ayt?
2015-02-14T17:10:15Z taylanub: kraehe: ?
2015-02-14T17:10:26Z taylanub: ah, "are you there" I guess
2015-02-14T17:10:27Z kraehe found a nice, and clean, and even fast way for nested and sliced quasiquotes ;-)
2015-02-14T17:10:40Z taylanub: do show
2015-02-14T17:10:51Z kraehe: and the code even looks nice in JavaScript ;-)
2015-02-14T17:11:05Z taylanub: heh
2015-02-14T17:11:30Z kraehe: http://kephra.de/o3proto/unloop.html <- execution and debugging - the html code contains the scheme code
2015-02-14T17:12:19Z kraehe: http://kephra.de/o3proto/unloop.js <- line 404...440
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2015-02-14T17:13:35Z kraehe: http://kephra.de/o3proto/qq.js <- thats the quasiquote macro code
2015-02-14T17:14:14Z taylanub: kraehe: have you tested it against all sorts of corner-cases?
2015-02-14T17:14:29Z kraehe: not against all sort
2015-02-14T17:14:38Z kraehe: I tested a few from r4rs
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2015-02-14T17:15:05Z taylanub: e.g. `(foo . ,(list 0 1 2)) => (foo 0 1 2)
2015-02-14T17:15:23Z kraehe: but I can not run the r4rs test suit here, because the result of a nested qq is not a list containing a qq, because all of them will be resolved in one step
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2015-02-14T17:15:59Z kraehe: this example wont work - i have no cons cells ;-)
2015-02-14T17:16:25Z taylanub: uh, lisp without cons cells ...
2015-02-14T17:16:32Z kraehe: 😃
2015-02-14T17:16:53Z taylanub: .oO( I need to install more fonts )
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2015-02-14T17:19:32Z kraehe: lists are mapped into js arrays
2015-02-14T17:19:47Z kraehe: atoms are js objects, of my own way
2015-02-14T17:21:33Z kraehe: current atomic types are: symbols, strings, numbers (precise and fixednum), lambda, macro, primitive-lambda, primitive-macro, nil, #t, #f
2015-02-14T17:22:19Z kraehe: I dont know, if I follow the lisp way that nil is false, or stick with the more precise scheme way that on #f is false
2015-02-14T17:23:13Z kraehe: nil is just the symbol if you eval ()
2015-02-14T17:24:40Z kraehe: currently nil is funny because (eq? 'nil) '()) is false, while they are true without quote
2015-02-14T17:25:24Z kraehe: pair? is also odd, because pair? returns true, if its a list with at least one element
2015-02-14T17:27:13Z taylanub: kraehe: cons cells are pairs.  if you have no cons cells you should have no pair? predicate.
2015-02-14T17:27:41Z taylanub: neither cons, car, and cdr
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2015-02-14T17:29:02Z kraehe: http://kephra.de/o3proto/qq.js <- updated the quasicode javascript macro
2015-02-14T17:29:24Z kraehe: car -> a[0]
2015-02-14T17:29:29Z kraehe: cdr -> a.slice(1)
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2015-02-14T17:30:40Z kraehe: cons is a lot of more work, then in lisp
2015-02-14T17:30:56Z kraehe: because it requires copying of an array/list
2015-02-14T17:31:06Z kraehe: and therefore later breaks eq?
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2015-02-14T17:33:20Z ecraven: sbcl says (eq 'nil '()) -> T
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2015-02-14T17:35:37Z pjb: ecraven: this is #scheme.
2015-02-14T17:35:40Z pjb: Here, nil is true.
2015-02-14T17:35:59Z pjb: as () is.  But they're not eqv?
2015-02-14T17:36:25Z kraehe: i think r4rs has no nil symbol
2015-02-14T17:36:27Z pjb: Scheme is farther from the big bang than Common Lisp.
2015-02-14T17:36:31Z kraehe: only ()
2015-02-14T17:36:33Z pjb: neither has r5rs.
2015-02-14T17:36:49Z pjb: You will find (define nil '()) in my scheme programs. ;-)
2015-02-14T17:37:00Z kraehe: ;-)
2015-02-14T17:37:52Z wasamasa: lol
2015-02-14T17:38:29Z kraehe: pjb, next to a (define consp pair?)
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2015-02-14T17:39:49Z pjb: kraehe: yes. Have a look at (intersection common-lisp emacs-lisp scheme) http://www.informatimago.com/develop/lisp/com/informatimago/small-cl-pgms/intersection-r5rs-common-lisp-emacs-lisp/
2015-02-14T17:39:49Z rudybot: http://tinyurl.com/b83v39z
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2015-02-14T17:43:08Z kraehe: pjb, this reminds me that there are two type of forth coders
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2015-02-14T17:43:29Z kraehe: those who read the code for ages, wondering if they ever get it running
2015-02-14T17:43:50Z kraehe: and those who just patch their forth to implement a new dictionary with the additional/changed words
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2015-02-14T17:58:36Z taylanub: kraehe: there are no "constant symbols" in Scheme, so t and nil are just symbols of random names.  in CL too, you can have a symbol 'false, and it will evaluate true; the name is irrelevant.
2015-02-14T17:58:45Z taylanub: (responding to "R4RS has no nil symbol")
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2015-02-14T19:31:26Z z0d: so, no one uses IMAIL (MIT SCHEMEÖ?
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2015-02-14T19:39:28Z phao: Hey... sort of off topic, but
2015-02-14T19:39:33Z phao: what is the theme song of the SICP mit lectures?
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2015-02-14T19:45:25Z z0d: dunno. you might want to try Shazam on it <-:
2015-02-14T19:50:23Z phao: I've found =D
2015-02-14T19:55:19Z wasamasa: share
2015-02-14T19:55:47Z phao: hehehe
2015-02-14T19:56:03Z wasamasa: that is a command, not a joke
2015-02-14T19:56:11Z phao: Jesu, joy of man's desiring - JS Bach
2015-02-14T19:56:21Z wasamasa: thank you
2015-02-14T19:56:26Z phao: np
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2015-02-15T00:38:14Z kraehe: http://kephra.de/o3proto/beer.html <- news of the day ... I did something evil ... I've implemented a while loop ;-)
2015-02-15T00:38:42Z kraehe: as usual, the html source shows the scheme source
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2015-02-15T00:49:02Z vanila: nice one :D
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2015-02-15T01:43:58Z kraehe: file:///home/kraehe/work/o3db/scheme/while-debug.html <- and a countdown with debugging output
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2015-02-15T03:49:35Z iAran: Anyone has tried to embed Gambit-C in a C main loop? Mine's got a working repl and 'load' function, but no 'compile-*' and 'link-*', which means I cannot compile and load files like in gambit's gsc command line tool. Linked with -lgambc -lgambgsc, OS X.
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2015-02-15T14:44:20Z kraehe wonders about r4rs http://groups.csail.mit.edu/mac/ftpdir/scm/r4rstest.scm ... start of SECTION 6 3:
2015-02-15T14:45:44Z kraehe: (test '(a b c d e) 'dot '(a . (b . (c . (d . (e . ())))))) ;;; <- what is that 'dot symbol about?
2015-02-15T14:46:37Z wasamasa: syntax for a pair
2015-02-15T14:47:02Z wasamasa: since to be exact, most lisp dialects don't have lists as type
2015-02-15T14:47:16Z wasamasa: or wait
2015-02-15T14:47:18Z wasamasa: wait
2015-02-15T14:47:30Z wasamasa: nevermind me
2015-02-15T14:47:59Z kraehe: not the a . (b
2015-02-15T14:48:07Z kraehe: but the 'dot starting the test
2015-02-15T14:49:12Z wasamasa: apparently 'dot is something one can apply
2015-02-15T14:50:40Z kraehe: but not in s9 - so the question is, what does (dot ... ) do?
2015-02-15T14:52:02Z kraehe: btw, what small scheme would you recommend, that does not extend beyond r4rs, if you want a reference to lookup a real scheme behavior, if implementing an own toy scheme?
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2015-02-15T15:00:39Z ilammy: kraehe: I guess that 'dot' is just a test name in case it is not a procedure.
2015-02-15T15:02:36Z kraehe: I only found it at two places in r4rs test suit - both times used 'dot ... but nowhere defined
2015-02-15T15:04:19Z ilammy: just look at how it is used in test
2015-02-15T15:04:57Z ilammy: it's type out at first, and then it is applied if it is a procedure and ditched out otherwise
2015-02-15T15:05:29Z ilammy: since 'dot is not a procedure it is only passed to write and record-errors
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2015-02-15T15:25:13Z HisaoNakai: o/
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2015-02-15T16:10:47Z HisaoNakai: What can I use to stop the execution of a program? EXIT kindasorta works, but maybe something else exists?
2015-02-15T16:11:31Z HisaoNakai: (chicken scheme, but preferably something portable (...))
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2015-02-15T16:23:07Z z0d: HisaoNakai: why do you need such a feature?
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2015-02-15T16:31:07Z wasamasa: HisaoNakai: I'm not aware of such a thing in r5rs
2015-02-15T16:31:45Z HisaoNakai: z0d: well, I was validating some input and wanted the progam to stop if the input was deemed invalid
2015-02-15T16:31:56Z HisaoNakai: Hey, wasamasa . I see.
2015-02-15T16:32:45Z wasamasa: heck, the exception srfi was withdrawn
2015-02-15T16:33:17Z HisaoNakai: o.O
2015-02-15T16:33:39Z wasamasa: (and implemented slightly differently in CHICKEN)
2015-02-15T16:33:43Z z0d: you could print an error
2015-02-15T16:34:01Z z0d: and if you don't do anything else, your program will terminate
2015-02-15T16:34:39Z z0d: (if (validate input)
2015-02-15T16:34:49Z z0d: err
2015-02-15T16:35:08Z wasamasa: (if (valid? input) (main))
2015-02-15T16:35:15Z HisaoNakai: o.O
2015-02-15T16:35:30Z z0d: (if (not (valid-p input)) (display ...) (begin (....))
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2015-02-15T16:36:19Z HisaoNakai: Well, I suppose (exit) is close enough.
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2015-02-15T16:36:53Z HisaoNakai: It's not an interactive program if that's the impression I give :)
2015-02-15T16:37:03Z z0d: that doesn't matter
2015-02-15T16:37:52Z wasamasa: my chicken script termintates on uncaught exceptions
2015-02-15T16:38:26Z HisaoNakai: o.o
2015-02-15T16:39:43Z wasamasa: don't act like you're surprised, that's normal
2015-02-15T16:40:03Z HisaoNakai: ...what on earth are exceptions?
2015-02-15T16:44:25Z HisaoNakai: ...what :\
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2015-02-15T16:54:22Z wasamasa: never used a language like java, c++, python, ruby, etc.?
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2015-02-15T16:55:55Z HisaoNakai: some C++ somewhere around 2004~06, and even then never encountered exceptions. o.o
2015-02-15T16:56:19Z ilammy: And I first thought that 'Now we have a Lisp that we can exit from' from Lisp in Small Pieces is kinda funny...
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2015-02-15T17:00:44Z wasamasa: HisaoNakai: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exception_handling#Exception_support_in_programming_languages
2015-02-15T17:00:45Z rudybot: http://tinyurl.com/mp4meal
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2015-02-15T17:07:01Z NickStewart1123: Hello, I'm new here
2015-02-15T17:07:06Z HisaoNakai: wasamasa: yeah, that's the page I was trying to make sense of :)
2015-02-15T17:07:38Z HisaoNakai: sounds like they're controversial.
2015-02-15T17:08:05Z wasamasa: they sure are
2015-02-15T17:08:10Z vanila: hi NickStewart1123
2015-02-15T17:08:15Z NickStewart1123: Anyone help me get scheme running on OSX Yosemite
2015-02-15T17:08:17Z NickStewart1123: ?
2015-02-15T17:08:37Z wasamasa: HisaoNakai: however, I doubt not having them is going to do good: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Time_of_check_to_time_of_use
2015-02-15T17:08:42Z vanila: I think that PLT scheme/Racket worked good on os x
2015-02-15T17:08:48Z vanila: you could try that
2015-02-15T17:09:37Z NickStewart1123: vanila: I want to go through the little schemer book, will Racket work well with that?
2015-02-15T17:09:58Z vanila: it should be good if you just select R5RS mode from the legacy section
2015-02-15T17:10:10Z vanila: (it supports a bunch of variations on scheme)
2015-02-15T17:10:19Z NickStewart1123: ok will try that, thanks!!
2015-02-15T17:10:43Z HisaoNakai: wasamasa: @_@
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2015-02-15T17:38:33Z taylanub: NickStewart1123: I think Guile should work on Yosemite as well, just FYI
2015-02-15T17:39:00Z taylanub: Racket might be better for education though.  for Guile you'll probably want Emacs/Geiser
2015-02-15T17:40:46Z NickStewart1123: taylanub: thanks!
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2015-02-16T18:49:21Z snyp: A quote like '(1 2 3) is computed once right?
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2015-02-16T18:50:34Z fds: What do you mean by 'computed'?
2015-02-16T18:52:01Z snyp: (let ((foo (lambda '(1 2 3)))  (eq? (foo) (foo)))
2015-02-16T18:52:38Z snyp: (let ([foo (lambda '(1 2 3))])  (eq? (foo) (foo)))
2015-02-16T18:52:54Z snyp: eh i messed up the parens probably
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2015-02-16T18:53:34Z snyp: i messed up the lambda
2015-02-16T18:53:38Z snyp: 0 arguments
2015-02-16T18:53:59Z snyp:  (let ((foo (lambda () '(1 2 3)))) (eq? (foo) (foo)))
2015-02-16T18:54:01Z snyp: returns #t
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2015-02-16T18:57:24Z snyp: but if i have (define x '(1 2 3)) in the top level, and (eq? (foo) x) , it's false
2015-02-16T18:57:58Z snyp: how is '(1 2 3) allocated? i am using guile scheme?
2015-02-16T18:58:12Z snyp: well it's a list i know that
2015-02-16T18:58:43Z LeoNerd: I don't believe Scheme specifies whether   (eq? '(1 2 3) '(1 2 3))  is true or not
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2015-02-16T18:59:46Z snyp: i see...
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2015-02-16T19:11:57Z snyp: LeoNerd: what's the intuitive thing to do?
2015-02-16T19:12:05Z snyp: what's your opinion?
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2015-02-16T19:13:02Z LeoNerd: I think it depends enormously on exact semantics within the interpreter/compiler
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2015-02-16T19:13:11Z snyp: i see
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2015-02-16T19:40:17Z kraehe: snyp, eq? means that they are not only easy equal but also same
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2015-02-16T19:41:19Z kraehe: the lambda applys the quote, the quote returns the list, and both calls the quote returns the same list
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2015-02-16T20:11:28Z cojy_: there is no "quote" at that point, just a constant list
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2015-02-16T20:15:19Z kraehe: cojy_, lambda does not eval the body on definition, only on execution of the procedure
2015-02-16T20:15:37Z cojy_: kraehe: it gets compiled away even in an interpreter
2015-02-16T20:15:49Z cojy_: quote is a special form, not a function
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2015-02-16T20:18:57Z cojy_: a thunk doesn't stop the expansion of a macro inside of it either, for example
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2015-02-16T20:55:05Z vanila: (eq? '(1 2 3) '(1 2 3)) coudl be implemented in a couple different ways by a scheme compiler
2015-02-16T20:55:28Z vanila: (A) somethingthat directly translate quotations into conses: (eq? (cons 1 (cons 2 (cons 3 '()))) (cons 1 (cons 2 (cons 3 '()))))
2015-02-16T20:55:47Z pjb: vanila: No.
2015-02-16T20:55:57Z vanila: (B) something that does constant factoring:  (define $c1 (cons 1 (cons 2 (cons 3 '())))) (eq? $c1 $c1)
2015-02-16T20:56:02Z pjb: Yes.
2015-02-16T20:56:05Z vanila: in A it'll be #t, in B #f
2015-02-16T20:56:18Z vanila: err i got mixed up because of all the noise
2015-02-16T20:56:18Z pjb: It cannot be implemented as (a).
2015-02-16T20:56:23Z vanila: in A it'll be #f, in B #t
2015-02-16T20:56:31Z pjb: Perhaps you should read the standard. After all, it's only fucking 50 pages!
2015-02-16T20:56:44Z vanila: pjb, fuck off
2015-02-16T20:56:47Z kraehe: (eq? '(1 2 3) '(1 2 3)) should be #f
2015-02-16T20:56:59Z pjb: kraehe: no, it can be #t.
2015-02-16T20:57:07Z kraehe: but the question was (let ((foo (lambda () '(1 2 3)))) (eq? (foo) (foo)))
2015-02-16T20:57:13Z pjb: kraehe: implementations are allowed to coalesce literals.
2015-02-16T20:58:21Z kraehe: pjb, thats interesting
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2015-02-16T21:07:52Z vanila: pjb, for your own education: you are wrong, (a) is not ruled out by the standard
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2015-02-16T21:10:13Z vanila: but more importantly, It is not good to act the rude way you are and turn this channel into some kind of immature standards-lawyering contest
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2015-02-25T08:50:16Z ecraven: hm.. should '|P| and 'P be EQ?
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2015-02-25T10:22:21Z taylanub: yes, unless there's some invisible Unicode character or something
2015-02-25T10:22:27Z taylanub: ecraven: ^
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2015-02-25T10:22:50Z ecraven: taylanub: just because under MIT/GNU Scheme they aren't :-/
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2015-02-25T10:23:00Z taylanub: maybe it does something funny with case sensitivity?
2015-02-25T10:23:18Z ecraven: ah, good point, 'P is probably EQ? to 'p
2015-02-25T10:23:28Z taylanub: actually that case sensitivity funniness might just be specified; Imma check R7RS
2015-02-25T10:24:09Z kraehe: *aehm* what is this '[P] syntax about?
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2015-02-25T10:24:59Z taylanub: kraehe: || (not []) is like "" but for symbols not strings
2015-02-25T10:25:10Z taylanub: |this is one symbol|
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2015-02-25T10:25:34Z kraehe: > '|P| -> error: funny input character: #\|
2015-02-25T10:26:09Z taylanub: kraehe: it's been specified newly in R7RS and not all Schemes support it (yet)
2015-02-25T10:26:23Z kraehe: *ah* so its not r4rs
2015-02-25T10:26:37Z kraehe: its a reader macro for string->symbol I guess
2015-02-25T10:27:04Z taylanub: ehh, maybe one could implement it like that...
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2015-02-25T10:29:31Z taylanub: ecraven: hm, R7RS just says that #!fold-case causes "identifiers and character names to be case-folded" and |foo| is just a way to represent an identifier, so I'd say it should behave same.  ask Riastradh maybe.
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2015-02-25T10:30:37Z kraehe: btw, thats one point i'm missing in r4rs
2015-02-25T10:30:58Z kraehe: assuming I write a reader with reader macros to create an s-exp
2015-02-25T10:31:34Z kraehe: apply wont help much to execute this, as apply requires a procedure
2015-02-25T10:32:42Z kraehe: i'm missing the equivalent of eval in r4rs - or am I blind?
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2015-02-25T17:53:28Z Ralt: hi there
2015-02-25T17:57:15Z Ralt: I have a question
2015-02-25T17:57:37Z Ralt: I've used common lisp for a while now, and was wondering if learning scheme would benefit me in any way
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2015-02-25T18:11:33Z z0d: which implementation would you recommend for working with SDL (www.libsdl.org) ?
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2015-02-25T18:24:18Z wasamasa: Ralt: sounds like the reversal of "A language that doesn't affect the way you think about programming, is not worth knowing."
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2015-02-25T18:29:36Z kraehe: Ralt, scheme and lisp are very simple, so scheme wont be an eye opener, if you know lisp - but it might be a nice small lisp, if you know common lisp, and dont need that bloat
2015-02-25T18:30:32Z mario-goulart: z0d: CHICKEN has bindings for version 1.2.  I haven't used the sdl-related egg, though.
2015-02-25T18:31:14Z wasamasa: Ralt: I consider CPS, tail call recursion, the tiny standard, continuations and the design decisions interesting to say the least
2015-02-25T18:31:23Z z0d: Guile also has an SDL library. I guess I'll try both and see which is better
2015-02-25T18:31:25Z wasamasa: Ralt: even hygienic macros!
2015-02-25T18:32:00Z wasamasa: hmm, guile has the disadvantage that it still can't spit out executables on its own
2015-02-25T18:32:37Z wasamasa: it's kind of obvious that it's still meant for embedding scheme in C programs
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2015-02-25T19:15:44Z taylanub: kraehe: Ralt: Scheme can probably be an eye opener to someone who only ever used CL without thinking too much about the abstractions underlying its features.  e.g. Scheme teaches one "delimited continuations", and all of continue, break, block, return, exceptions, recoverable exceptions, coroutines, and more can be expressed in terms of delimited continuations, and a halfway intelligent compiler
2015-02-25T19:15:44Z taylanub: will also produce just as efficient code from these in-Scheme implementations of these features based on the underlying delimited continuation facility
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2015-02-25T19:22:16Z Riastradh: `Halfway intelligent compiler,' heh.
2015-02-25T19:22:36Z Riastradh: Used to be one would call that a `sufficiently smart compiler', sometimes with a trademark symbol attached.
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2015-02-25T19:26:22Z turbofail: does such a compiler exist?
2015-02-25T19:27:29Z turbofail: stalin has no support for delimited continuations
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2015-02-25T20:15:20Z taylanub: turbofail: AFAIK it's fairly trivial to detect it when a use of delimited continuations is an escape-only use, and AFAIK Guile does it.  (it does *some* thing to make let/ec more efficient; not sure if it also detects it when a shift/reset use is equivalent to a let/ec use)
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2015-02-25T20:27:53Z turbofail: well let/ec is a wholly different beast
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2015-02-25T20:29:36Z taylanub: hm, now I remember the trivial way to detect it that I had in mind: when you simply never refer to the continuation variable.  i.e. a trivial lexical analysis.  that's the simplest way to use delimited continuations as continue/break/return or any "upward goto" if you will
2015-02-25T20:30:48Z turbofail: yeah or if it never gets passed to any other functions and only gets invoked directly
2015-02-25T20:32:17Z taylanub: yeah, in that case it's equivalent to calling some procedure which then simply returns
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2015-02-26T15:04:50Z ecraven: does anyone here use names like `set-user-admin?!' (with both ? and !)
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2015-02-26T15:05:43Z wasamasa: use an interrobang
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2015-02-26T15:08:57Z ecraven: I should setup my font tables to make ?! -> ‽
2015-02-26T15:10:25Z wasamasa: I just use the compose key for that
2015-02-26T15:10:36Z wasamasa: ‽⸘
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2015-02-26T15:40:58Z kraehe: ecraven, what do you want to express with an ?!
2015-02-26T15:41:28Z ecraven: kraehe: writing a boolean field
2015-02-26T15:41:37Z kraehe: I could think about the following case (if (not (seen?! url)) (scrap url))
2015-02-26T15:41:53Z ecraven: user-admin? tells me whether a user is an admin, set-user-admin?! sets that field
2015-02-26T15:42:06Z kraehe: in this case seen returns a boolean, that is false first time, and true any subsquent times
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2015-02-26T15:42:21Z kraehe: this should be set-user-admin!
2015-02-26T15:43:05Z kraehe: an alternate would be usage like
2015-02-26T15:43:07Z ecraven: indeed, but that would mean I'd have to check in the macro that generates the accessor methods whether a symbol ends with ?, and then modify the setter accordingly.. I don't find ?! as bad as I used to after seeing it for some time now
2015-02-26T15:43:24Z vanila: why not call the field user-admin
2015-02-26T15:43:31Z vanila: then you don't have a weird ?! thing
2015-02-26T15:43:41Z kraehe: (if (switch-to-admin?!) (prepare-admin-jobs)) (do-admin-jobs)
2015-02-26T15:43:59Z vanila: it could even be user-is-admin
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2015-02-26T15:44:31Z kraehe: the something?! looks for me like a return boolean with side effect
2015-02-26T15:44:32Z ecraven: vanila: I like ? :)
2015-02-26T15:44:50Z ecraven: kraehe: good point
2015-02-26T15:44:51Z kraehe: e.g. (seen?! url)
2015-02-26T15:45:17Z kraehe: seen?! will return false first time, and true the rest of the times
2015-02-26T15:45:35Z kraehe: and has the side effect, that it needs a memory to do that
2015-02-26T15:47:15Z kraehe: http://w3dig.com/w3dig-dev.html <- the markURL in my w3dig search engine is basically a seen?! pattern
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2015-02-26T15:47:39Z kraehe: an other common use was in secondlife scripting
2015-02-26T15:48:03Z kraehe: scripts in object are notified about events, e.g. collision events
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2015-02-26T15:48:40Z kraehe: a floor that is tracking visitors has to throw away most evens, if seen within some time
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2015-02-26T16:39:42Z kraehe: can someone check on their fav scheme: (procedure? begin) and (procedure? lambda)
2015-02-26T16:40:03Z kraehe: what does your scheme return on special forms? #t, #f or syntax error?
2015-02-26T16:40:34Z vanila: Error: unbound variable: begin
2015-02-26T16:40:40Z vanila: ents
2015-02-26T16:40:59Z vanila: Error: unbound variable: lambda
2015-02-26T16:41:01Z vanila: in chicken
2015-02-26T16:41:05Z vanila: #f for both in sagittarius
2015-02-26T16:41:20Z vanila: they eval to #<syntax begin>
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2015-02-26T16:43:39Z kraehe: interesting
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2015-02-26T21:02:38Z kraehe: slow progress of my toy scheme: <script src="url"> works now (the http://kephra.de/o3proto/r4rs-subset.html file itself is much smaller now), a lot of work on section 6 5 (numbers), and a code reduction/cleanup by about 5%
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2015-02-27T00:56:03Z cyanboy: Hi, I am wondering is there any reason not to write functions as tail recursive? Should you always write functions this way?
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