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2015-01-16T00:14:26Z teurastaja: is there a channel bot since the plt-scheme one seems gone?
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2015-01-16T00:19:48Z turbofail: rudybot: are you up to the challenge?
2015-01-16T00:19:50Z rudybot: turbofail: Challenge accepted.  North shore of Lake Superior.  Not a national park, but beautiful
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2015-01-16T00:22:48Z teurastaja: rudybot: are you a psychiatrist?
2015-01-16T00:22:48Z rudybot: teurastaja: lays on technomancy's psychiatrist couch
2015-01-16T00:23:16Z teurastaja: damn it doesnt have the emacs psychiatrist
2015-01-16T00:23:38Z teurastaja: would be a cool addition
2015-01-16T00:24:08Z teurastaja: so... whos the AI genius who programmed it?
2015-01-16T00:25:22Z teurastaja: rudybot: who programmed you?
2015-01-16T00:25:23Z rudybot: teurastaja: have you ever programmed in C, C++, Java, or any language with similar syntax?
2015-01-16T00:25:32Z teurastaja: rudybot: yes
2015-01-16T00:25:32Z rudybot: teurastaja: Mr-Cat1: Yes, I know -- but you can get that in Scheme if all you use only hash tables.
2015-01-16T00:26:08Z teurastaja: rudybot: hash tables in r7rs?
2015-01-16T00:26:09Z rudybot: teurastaja: I hate LaTeX tables, for example!
2015-01-16T00:26:39Z teurastaja: rudybot: rectification: your programmer is not a genius ;)
2015-01-16T00:26:40Z rudybot: teurastaja: i don't recall the term in english for the device, think individual components (thermocouples) in the 100s~1000s and built in rectification
2015-01-16T00:27:13Z teurastaja: rudybot: help
2015-01-16T00:27:13Z rudybot: teurastaja: bug <more> ..., fom <more> ..., hopeless <more> ..., bad-eval <more> ..., later "tell" <recipient> <message> ..., help [<what>], version, quote, source, url, seen <nick> <more> ..., uptime, t8 <from> <to> <text> ..., snotback, botsnack, init [<lang>], eval <expr> ..., give <to> <expr> ..., apropos <str> ..., desc <id>, doc <id>
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2015-01-16T00:29:36Z teurastaja: rudybot: botsnack
2015-01-16T00:29:36Z rudybot: yech, generic brand
2015-01-16T00:29:48Z teurastaja: rudybot: snotback
2015-01-16T00:29:49Z rudybot: Yum! Oysters.
2015-01-16T00:30:06Z teurastaja: rudybot: are you horny?
2015-01-16T00:30:07Z rudybot: teurastaja: I'm saying it's wrong, I"m saying it's sloppy in a way that make lispertarians horny.
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2015-01-16T00:32:32Z teurastaja: rudybot: give rudybot: "test"
2015-01-16T00:32:33Z rudybot: teurastaja: your sandbox is ready
2015-01-16T00:32:33Z rudybot: rudybot:: teurastaja has given you a value, say "rudybot: eval (GRAB)" to get it (case sensitive)
2015-01-16T00:33:17Z teurastaja: rudybot: eval (GRAB)
2015-01-16T00:33:17Z rudybot: teurastaja: Done.
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2015-01-16T00:33:53Z teurastaja: anyone ever succeeded in crashing rudybot with recursive evaluation?
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2015-01-16T00:36:43Z teurastaja: can you make it send itself messages that get evaled to sending it the same message recursively?
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2015-01-16T00:42:52Z teurastaja: is this a mistake?: (call-with-current-continuation (lambda (k1 k2 ...) body))
2015-01-16T00:43:05Z Riastradh: Probably.  Doesn't make sense in normal Scheme.
2015-01-16T00:43:16Z teurastaja: or is it possible and has some esoteric applications i dont know of?
2015-01-16T00:43:59Z teurastaja: what would k2 be bound to?
2015-01-16T00:46:25Z teurastaja: rudybot: eval (call-with-current-continuation (lambda (k1 k2) (k2 k1)))
2015-01-16T00:46:25Z rudybot: teurastaja: error: call-with-current-continuation: contract violation <NEWLINE>   expected: (any/c . -> . any) <NEWLINE>   given: #<procedure>
2015-01-16T00:46:43Z teurastaja: explanations?
2015-01-16T00:47:21Z turbofail: explanation?  call/cc only calls the function you give it with a single argument
2015-01-16T00:47:24Z teurastaja: looks like haskell type declarations
2015-01-16T00:47:43Z turbofail: as in it explicitly is supposed to be given a function with an arity of one
2015-01-16T00:49:07Z teurastaja: alright. i never had to use call/cc nor macros except when i was learning. are they superfluous?
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2015-01-16T00:49:50Z turbofail: macros are not superfluous
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2015-01-16T00:49:56Z teurastaja: i usually just write plain lambdas
2015-01-16T00:50:11Z turbofail: call/cc may or may not be superfluous depending on who you ask
2015-01-16T00:50:30Z teurastaja: because of cps i guess
2015-01-16T00:50:47Z turbofail: cps is not a substitute for some form of continuation capturing mechanism
2015-01-16T00:51:06Z turbofail: unless you rewrite your entire codebase and everything it depends on in that style
2015-01-16T00:52:18Z teurastaja: any examples where you absolutely need either macros or call/cc?
2015-01-16T00:52:40Z turbofail: there's no such thing as "needing" them
2015-01-16T00:53:07Z teurastaja: so you dont need them?
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2015-01-16T00:54:11Z turbofail: you don't strictly "need" anything other than lambda to do whatever you want
2015-01-16T00:54:33Z turbofail: therefore i can't give you an example where you "absolutely need" macros or call/cc
2015-01-16T00:54:52Z teurastaja: so its just a matter of style?
2015-01-16T00:54:56Z turbofail: that said having them can make certain things much easier
2015-01-16T00:55:26Z teurastaja: i just cant seem to find a use for them
2015-01-16T00:55:27Z turbofail: style is important because we aren't computers
2015-01-16T00:55:36Z turbofail: we're silly humans
2015-01-16T00:56:03Z turbofail: anyway call/cc is pretty hard to use, delimited continuations are easier to find a use for
2015-01-16T00:56:16Z turbofail: but explaining those is more than i care to get into right now
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2015-01-16T00:57:00Z teurastaja: how about non-delimited continuations. examples?
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2015-01-16T00:58:14Z turbofail: well one example of a more limited use of continuations is to bail out of a function early
2015-01-16T00:59:15Z turbofail: for example, (call/cc (lambda (escape) (map (lambda (x) (if (equal? x "badness") (escape "oh shit!") x)) my-list)))
2015-01-16T00:59:38Z teurastaja: yes i remember that
2015-01-16T00:59:58Z turbofail: except in this case you could use what racket provides, call/ec, which is an escape continuation
2015-01-16T01:00:23Z turbofail: which is a special case that happens to be much easier to provide in an efficient manner
2015-01-16T01:00:28Z teurastaja: im a partisan of r7rs
2015-01-16T01:01:49Z teurastaja: i prefer C to C++ and scheme to common lisp ;)
2015-01-16T01:02:17Z turbofail: basically if you can't find a need for continuations then you probably shouldn't worry about it
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2015-01-16T01:02:42Z teurastaja: im interested in its esoteric usages though
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2015-01-16T01:03:06Z teurastaja: there are some interesting riddles made with that
2015-01-16T01:03:31Z turbofail: riddles are the opposite of useful
2015-01-16T01:04:20Z turbofail: with undelimited continuations almost every non-escape-continuation usage becomes a riddle
2015-01-16T01:04:22Z teurastaja: i know, but i dont use scheme for work
2015-01-16T01:04:41Z teurastaja: i use it for algorithm simplification
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2015-01-16T01:06:38Z turbofail: anyway probably the best use of continuations is to turn a call-back driven control flow into something that looks like a blocking, linear control flow
2015-01-16T01:07:37Z teurastaja: hmm... i dont understand that last sentence
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2015-01-16T01:09:36Z turbofail: so instead of having to do (on-key (lambda (k) (on-key (lambda (k2) (do-shit k1 k2))))) you can use continuations to make it look like (let ((k (read-key)) (k2 (read-key))) (do-shit k k2))
2015-01-16T01:10:59Z turbofail: where the definition of read-key would look something like (define (read-key) (call/cc (lambda (cont) (on-key cont))))
2015-01-16T01:11:10Z turbofail: except you can't use the real call/cc in this fashion because it will do weird things
2015-01-16T01:11:16Z turbofail: you'd have to use a delimited continuation
2015-01-16T01:11:34Z teurastaja: weird things?
2015-01-16T01:11:44Z turbofail: yes, weird things, it's an official term
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2015-01-16T01:13:26Z teurastaja: why weird things? and how do you explicitly use delimited continuations to avoid "weird things"?
2015-01-16T01:13:54Z turbofail: basically, call/cc captures the ENTIRE control stack, which is often more than you want to actually capture
2015-01-16T01:14:20Z teurastaja: agreed
2015-01-16T01:15:56Z turbofail: so if you do (begin (define my-cont (call/cc (lambda (k) k)))  (my-cont 3)) you get an infinite loop
2015-01-16T01:16:17Z turbofail: and in fact a whole lot of other things that you might not expect to become infinite loops become infinite loops
2015-01-16T01:18:42Z turbofail: if you use one of the many delimited control thingamabobbers though, you can control how much of the "rest of the program" you actually want to capture
2015-01-16T01:18:56Z teurastaja: how?
2015-01-16T01:19:07Z teurastaja: in r7rs scheme
2015-01-16T01:19:16Z turbofail: there are no delimited continuations in r7rs
2015-01-16T01:19:39Z turbofail: at least not yet, i think there's supposed to be some added in r7rs-large or something
2015-01-16T01:19:56Z teurastaja: how do you define it in scheme then?
2015-01-16T01:20:12Z turbofail: you can't, the implementation has to provide it
2015-01-16T01:20:35Z turbofail: unless you do a CPS-transform on your entire code base and everything it depends on
2015-01-16T01:20:53Z turbofail: which may or may not be possible, given your scheme implementation
2015-01-16T01:22:03Z teurastaja: we should get more standard environment manipulation routines instead of having to write the whole language again...
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2015-01-16T01:24:11Z teurastaja: for a meta-programmable language, it seems more like meta-meta-programming language
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2015-01-16T11:15:51Z vanila: samth, is it true you got TCO into javascript??
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2015-01-16T13:22:35Z samth: vanila: I wouldn't say that I did it, but the current draft of the es6 spec has proper tail calls
2015-01-16T13:22:48Z vanila: that's incredible!
2015-01-16T13:23:04Z samth: It's strict mode only, and hasn't been implemented in any browser
2015-01-16T13:23:11Z vanila: good news for anyone wanting to compile scheme to it
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2015-01-25T11:35:25Z brbblnch: Hi
2015-01-25T11:35:37Z brbblnch: I'm trying to implement DFAs and such (learning purposes), and I'm having troubles with quote. http://paste.lisp.org/display/145368 , could anybody tell me why the "display" works but not the second (at the
2015-01-25T11:35:40Z brbblnch:                   | end) ?yY
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2015-01-25T11:41:07Z vanila: )
2015-01-25T11:41:07Z vanila: 	)
2015-01-25T11:41:07Z vanila:   
2015-01-25T11:41:07Z vanila: )
2015-01-25T11:41:15Z vanila: i would recommend keep all the )'s together
2015-01-25T11:41:44Z vanila: instead of set_powerset write set-powerset
2015-01-25T11:42:26Z brbblnch: vanila: you mean closing them like )))))
2015-01-25T11:42:28Z brbblnch: ?
2015-01-25T11:42:29Z vanila: yeah
2015-01-25T11:43:17Z brbblnch: But isn't it more readabla to close them according to their nesting level ? and is why not underscore ?
2015-01-25T11:43:27Z brbblnch: *readable, sorry
2015-01-25T11:43:39Z vanila: its not normal in lisp its up to you
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2015-01-25T11:44:20Z z0d: brbblnch: you shouldn't count or keep track of the parens. your editor should
2015-01-25T11:44:25Z brbblnch: ok
2015-01-25T11:44:36Z z0d: brbblnch: are you using emacs?
2015-01-25T11:44:43Z brbblnch: nope, vim
2015-01-25T11:45:03Z vanila: oh
2015-01-25T11:45:07Z vanila: I get youq eustion now
2015-01-25T11:45:15Z z0d: well, I'm sure vim has support for writing Lisp
2015-01-25T11:45:33Z brbblnch: z0d, yeah, i've not fully configured it yet
2015-01-25T11:45:41Z vanila: im writing an answer
2015-01-25T11:45:58Z z0d: http://www.vim.org/scripts/script.php?script_id=3998
2015-01-25T11:46:15Z vanila: http://paste.lisp.org/display/145368#1
2015-01-25T11:46:18Z brbblnch: vanila: I wanted to reduce my code to only contain the problematic bit but couldn't get the same results
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2015-01-25T11:46:34Z vanila: Here's what's happening and what you can do
2015-01-25T11:47:12Z vanila: 'alphabet will just give the symbol alphabeta, whereas alphabet will give the value of that variable
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2015-01-25T11:49:03Z brbblnch: So I want to evaluate the variable "alphabet", which will result in its content ?
2015-01-25T11:49:47Z brbblnch: z0d: thanks for the link, i'll try that
2015-01-25T11:52:13Z brbblnch: vanila: Yeah, I think I get it. Thank you!
2015-01-25T11:53:26Z brbblnch: Oh and I have a side question: In a function body, is it better to define variables/functions with (define …) or (let …) ?
2015-01-25T11:53:50Z z0d: they're not only stylistically different
2015-01-25T11:54:12Z vanila: I think it's better to use LET
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2015-01-25T11:54:53Z z0d: if you define something in a function, everything will "see" it, while with let it's lexical scope
2015-01-25T11:55:00Z z0d: e.g.
2015-01-25T11:56:00Z brbblnch: It seems to me that let is more "functional" than "define", but it creates more depth in the function, which can be less readable
2015-01-25T11:56:10Z z0d: with define, you'll get dynamic scope I think
2015-01-25T11:56:14Z cojy_: wrong
2015-01-25T11:56:16Z cojy_: define is also lexical
2015-01-25T11:56:38Z cojy_: the binding is just as if it was at the top in a letrec
2015-01-25T11:57:02Z cojy_: the top of the most lambda/let/define it is in
2015-01-25T11:57:20Z cojy_: most immediate *
2015-01-25T11:59:11Z cojy_: you should just use whatever yout hink looks more clear (which will usually be let)
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2015-01-25T12:06:56Z cojy_: z0d: #;1> (let () (let () (define foo 1)) foo)  => Error: unbound variable: foo
2015-01-25T12:07:53Z z0d: right
2015-01-25T12:08:13Z vanila: so how does that differ from dynamic scope
2015-01-25T12:12:58Z cojy_: that doesn't really compare to dynamic scoping, but neither does 'everything will "see" it'
2015-01-25T12:13:14Z cojy_: if you had some kind of dynamically scoped define this would work (let ((x (lambda () foo))) (let () (define foo 1) (x)))
2015-01-25T12:15:21Z brbblnch: w
2015-01-25T12:16:51Z brbblnch: ups. Well, thank you all for the help!
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2015-01-25T12:18:56Z cojy_: you are welcomeme
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2015-01-25T14:54:17Z kirang: Hi, I'm currently working through the paper "An incremental approach to compiler construction"
2015-01-25T14:54:40Z kirang: I am unable to run the snippets mentioned, because I keep getting "Exception: variable emit is not bound"
2015-01-25T14:55:11Z kirang: I cannot get the (emit ..) function to work correctly
2015-01-25T14:55:16Z kirang: Am I missing something ?
2015-01-25T14:59:03Z cojy_: kirang: yes, you have to define it yourself
2015-01-25T15:04:02Z kirang: I see. What exactly would emit do ?
2015-01-25T15:04:12Z kirang: and thank you for the prompt reply!
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2015-01-25T15:06:46Z cojy_: ah im wrong kirang
2015-01-25T15:06:48Z cojy_: https://github.com/mokehehe/backend-to-frontend/blob/master/tests-driver.scm
2015-01-25T15:06:49Z rudybot: http://tinyurl.com/lwf63pw
2015-01-25T15:06:55Z cojy_: i think that used to be provided with it
2015-01-25T15:07:59Z cojy_: https://github.com/elben/scheme-compiler/tree/master/archive
2015-01-25T15:08:08Z cojy_: that tgz should have the original
2015-01-25T15:08:59Z kirang: Ah ok. I was confused because I was unable to find the function in a few repos that I checked out.
2015-01-25T15:09:23Z xyh: and this is the author's ikarus :: https://github.com/xieyuheng/ikarus
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2015-01-25T15:10:18Z kirang: Awesome. Thanks for the help @cojy_ and @xyh
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2015-01-25T15:19:55Z xyh: the name ikarus, seems the author knows its fate.
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2015-01-25T15:36:41Z vanila: kirang, do you post your code online? I would like to follow it
2015-01-25T15:36:50Z vanila: I tried to read that same thing before but I got a bit stuck
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2015-01-25T15:37:12Z kirang: Sure, I'll keep updating it from time to time
2015-01-25T15:37:26Z kirang: I'll let you know once I've hosted it on GitHub
2015-01-25T15:38:16Z vanila: thanks, good luck :D
2015-01-25T15:39:20Z kirang: :)
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2015-01-25T19:46:24Z teurastaja: id like an example of just the main function of algorithm x (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Knuth%27s_Algorithm_X) implemented using AMB if anyone can help
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2015-01-25T19:49:54Z teurastaja: i got dancing links sorted out besides that main solve function which i want to implement using AMB. Yes ive looked at examples online of both the general implementation of AMB and its use on sudokus. I just dont see how to implement algorithm X with it and my research shows nothing on google
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2015-01-25T19:52:12Z teurastaja: im just not sure how to use that operator in this case
2015-01-25T19:53:14Z teurastaja: the whole program is almost finished
2015-01-25T19:53:30Z vanila: I don't think you should use AMB for this
2015-01-25T19:53:49Z vanila: the whole point of the algorithm is that the mutation effects you do to undo an operation after failure are very cheap
2015-01-25T19:53:53Z teurastaja: it says i have to make a non-deterministic choice
2015-01-25T19:53:55Z vanila: if you use amb you have no place to undo effects
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2015-01-25T19:55:25Z teurastaja: if i (let ([grid-save grid]) then call/cc?
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2015-01-25T20:00:01Z teurastaja: am i right to use call/cc?
2015-01-25T20:00:08Z vanila: no
2015-01-25T20:00:53Z teurastaja: damn... how do i clone the algorithm then?
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2015-01-25T20:02:13Z teurastaja: i mean how do i clone the grid and backtrack without call/cc?
2015-01-25T20:02:46Z vanila: you don't have to clone the grid
2015-01-25T20:02:55Z vanila: have you looked at Knuths writeup of this?
2015-01-25T20:03:33Z teurastaja: i read everything there is to read on that except his own paper
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2015-01-25T20:04:37Z vanila: well he explains it very well
2015-01-25T20:04:40Z teurastaja: i even found a few dancing links implementations in common lisp, in haskell, in TCL... but not scheme
2015-01-25T20:04:48Z vanila: what you do is edit the data structure, then to backtrack you undo the edit
2015-01-25T20:05:06Z vanila: and the trick with doubly linked lists makes it very quick to undo the edit
2015-01-25T20:05:08Z teurastaja: oh cover/uncover?
2015-01-25T20:05:12Z vanila: yeh
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2015-01-25T20:08:50Z teurastaja: ok ok... you seem well versed in dancing links and scheme. did you write your own?
2015-01-25T20:09:15Z vanila: don't ask X(
2015-01-25T20:09:22Z vanila: I got pretty far, but I didn't mange
2015-01-25T20:09:23Z teurastaja: why not?
2015-01-25T20:09:33Z vanila: I will come back to it but it's really tricky
2015-01-25T20:09:38Z vanila: (in C though)
2015-01-25T20:10:06Z teurastaja: want to see my rough copy so far and help me?
2015-01-25T20:12:15Z teurastaja: i have to rewrite the header records to point to the first node in its column but besides that and optimizations, theres only cover!, uncover! and solve to write
2015-01-25T20:18:34Z teurastaja: pastebin.com/QuEdr1Vh
2015-01-25T20:20:49Z teurastaja: its a very rough copy but maybe you can help
2015-01-25T20:22:50Z teurastaja: are you reading?
2015-01-25T20:30:50Z teurastaja: ill go outside then come back to ask if you read it
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2015-01-27T07:28:58Z names: cdidd_ mdln zacts acarrico ggherdov Neet turbofail mlaine fgudin profil ecraven dan64 rudybot nitrix kbtr wasamasa fizzie Blkt utkarsh Kryo clauswitt carc aksatac certainty poucet_ klutomet1s niklasl2 DerGuteMoritz finnrobi defanor ft micro^ twem2_ ELLIOTTCABLE pchrist abbe cky cross kilimanjaro sigjuice mrowe_away nisstyre edw tsuyoshi clog Nshag henrytill aking_ ozzloy tessier copec Razz rotty vikraman chameco _shit_ cibs antoszka Riviera aap emlow
2015-01-27T07:28:58Z names: tristero mark_weaver balkamos LeoNerd weinholt choas Khisanth z0d girrig C-Keen ski arrdem zbigniew amoe jyc yukko_ mikeyhc jkraemer joast asumu Saeren Kruppe evhan pflanze GGMethos haroldwu SHODAN _5kg xfz eMBee juanfra gnomon serhart dpk cjh`_ maxigas nowhereman vukcrni FracV acieroid` Intensity mario-goulart c74d add^__ Cheery SirDayBat eagleflo ByronJohnson ohama teiresias TrueShiftBlue akkad fikusz dualbus averell sethalves net4all_ tstc` emma
2015-01-27T07:28:58Z names: benaiah REPLeffect_ Natch diginet cmatei ffs Soft petercommand gf3
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2015-01-27T14:54:27Z darveter: who
2015-01-27T14:54:31Z LeoNerd: when?
2015-01-27T14:54:35Z wasamasa: where?
2015-01-27T14:55:13Z z0d: why?
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2015-01-27T14:55:45Z wasamasa: what?
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