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2014-12-05T08:49:55Z morgan.freenode.net:#scheme- [freenode-info] help freenode weed out clonebots -- please register your IRC nick and auto-identify: http://freenode.net/faq.shtml#nicksetup
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2014-12-05T14:00:56Z forcer: Hi. Does anyone know who is responsible for the srfi discussion lists on srfi.schemers.org, or what address I can use to contact the person responsible for that, instead of individual SRFIs?
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2014-12-05T14:06:38Z taylanub: forcer: there's a mailto: at the bottom of http://srfi.schemers.org/  dunno if that's what you want
2014-12-05T14:06:57Z forcer: taylanub: Hm. No idea if that's what I want, either, but I'll try it there. Thanks! :-)
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2014-12-05T14:07:29Z taylanub: by the way I sent them a mail a week or two ago about my R7RS SRFIs project and have no response yet :P
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2014-12-05T14:08:37Z forcer: Heh. Yeah, well, they're likely overworked. Like most volunteers.
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2014-12-14T03:51:11Z names: ccl-logbot choas Guest58622 Qudit314159 sheilong kilimanj1ro stamourv` Shadox necronian_ niklasl2 Sgeo ASau hiyosi_ boogaah bjz wzsk princearthur_ tobik enitiz MikOo araujo yonkie mutley89 b4283 arcwest1 alexei_ taylanub Rubix arrdem fizzie ski balkamos oleo daviid drdanmaku Vutral testin mdcox stepnem khisanth_ mlaine ivan\ cdidd joneshf-laptop tessier_ Soft SHODAN z0d acieroid yrdz jrslepak weinholt rtra Natch pjdelport kilimanjaro_ Kryo fikusz
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2014-12-14T03:51:11Z names: `nik` akkad gnomon diginet vikraman npr chameco averell abbe mrowe_away swilr eli pygospa nitrix yukko dpk dsp TrueShif1Blue gabot evhan haroldwu eagleflo vukcrni bars0_ zeroish certainty defanor ohama kbtr_ aap turbofail Neet ska-fan Riviera Blkt DerGuteMoritz dualbus duncanm LeoNerd utkarsh pchrist clog antoszka copec serhart edw Kruppe cjh` fadein C-Keen eMBee ecraven amoe Razz dan64 klutometis yosafbridge rotty_ tstc zbigniew SirDayBat tsuyoshi
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2014-12-14T06:51:26Z MikOo: hello, I would know how to get a string from command line in scheme48. I try with osstring->string but i get "Bug: invalid port argument"
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2014-12-14T07:11:10Z kilimanj1ro is now known as kilimanjaro
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2014-12-14T14:08:13Z vanila: is Olin Shivers loop macro available?
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2014-12-14T14:54:34Z snyp: How can I convert a string that represents a scheme expression to the corresponding datum(??) .. like "(define x 1)" to '(define x 1) ?
2014-12-14T14:55:05Z vanila: with-input-from-string read
2014-12-14T14:55:48Z snyp: thanks
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2014-12-14T15:03:33Z ijp: vanila: not as far as I know, use foof loop
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2014-12-14T15:04:30Z vanila: fuck off ijp
2014-12-14T15:05:06Z ijp: vanila: excuse me?
2014-12-14T15:05:43Z ijp: do you not want a loop macro?
2014-12-14T15:08:12Z ijp: I'm looking through my logs, and I can't see any interactions which may have upsetted you, so I'm just going to assume you are a cunt
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2014-12-14T17:00:20Z offby1: or a Tourette's sufferer
2014-12-14T17:00:27Z offby1 looks around for chrisdone
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2014-12-14T18:44:58Z teurastaja: Hi; having trouble defining a doubly-linked circular list. Havent found anything on google yet
2014-12-14T18:46:49Z teurastaja: Im working towards it but an example would be helpful
2014-12-14T18:47:40Z vanila: teurastaja, you will need to use mutation for this
2014-12-14T18:47:56Z vanila: I think it will be easier if you have some way to define records
2014-12-14T18:48:06Z vanila: if not you can just use (cell <value> <left> <right>)
2014-12-14T18:48:11Z vanila: a list of things
2014-12-14T18:48:50Z vanila: but anyway, you can start with a single element linking to itself (by building one of these, them use set-car! to make it  point to itself)
2014-12-14T18:49:07Z vanila: and then write insert-right! to build up a circle one by one
2014-12-14T18:51:51Z teurastaja: So far i concluded a node (node prev curr next) would be like: '(curr . (prev . next))
2014-12-14T18:53:32Z teurastaja: Ok and i link the extremums after inserting everything?
2014-12-14T18:53:46Z vanila: (define (new-node value) (let ((n (node #f value #f))) (set-node-prev! node node) (set-node-next! node node) node))
2014-12-14T18:54:00Z vanila: if you implement set-node-prev! and next! then you can use this to create a single node linking to itself
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2014-12-14T18:55:54Z teurastaja: Theres no magic involving using a clist and its reversed form i could use right?
2014-12-14T18:56:30Z teurastaja: Maybe im just daydreaming
2014-12-14T18:56:47Z vanila: well the way I suggested is not the most efficient
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2014-12-14T18:57:31Z vanila: you could do it with less set!'s by taking a list of elements and building the circular list out of it by making the links one by one having them point to the previous each time, and setting their next after
2014-12-14T18:57:41Z vanila: but it may be harder to get that right
2014-12-14T18:59:23Z teurastaja: (define (node a b c)
2014-12-14T18:59:23Z teurastaja: (let ([ps (list (list))])
2014-12-14T18:59:23Z teurastaja: (set-car! node a)
2014-12-14T18:59:23Z teurastaja: (set-cdr! node c)
2014-12-14T18:59:23Z teurastaja: (cons b ps)))
2014-12-14T18:59:34Z teurastaja: Does this work?
2014-12-14T19:02:00Z teurastaja: Oops
2014-12-14T19:02:58Z teurastaja: Replace (set-* node with set-* ps
2014-12-14T19:04:23Z vanila: you can't do everything with node
2014-12-14T19:04:50Z vanila: you need set-node-prev! and next! to edit the fields of a node after it has been created
2014-12-14T19:05:14Z vanila: see how I did (node #f value #f)
2014-12-14T19:05:27Z vanila: tthe #f's are just placeholders that get set later on - you don't know what goes there initially
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2014-12-14T19:07:52Z teurastaja: Is node a parameter passed from outside?
2014-12-14T19:08:17Z vanila: (define (new-node value) (let ((n (node #f value #f))) (set-node-prev! n n) (set-node-next! n n) n))
2014-12-14T19:08:20Z vanila: correction
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2014-12-14T19:10:15Z teurastaja: Is node a function?
2014-12-14T19:10:47Z teurastaja: Oh its my function?
2014-12-14T19:11:19Z vanila: node/set-node-prev!/set-node-next! are functions that I roughly described
2014-12-14T19:11:24Z vanila: you could implement them in a few different ways
2014-12-14T19:11:31Z vanila: but they have to agree on the representation of a node
2014-12-14T19:11:41Z vanila: this is the kind of approach SICP goes with
2014-12-14T19:11:47Z vanila: abstracting out the representation
2014-12-14T19:12:30Z vanila: one version might be  (define (node prev curr next) (list prev curr next))  (define (set-node-next! node prev) (set-car! (cddr node) prev))
2014-12-14T19:12:40Z vanila: you could also implement it with conses like you did, or a 3 element vector
2014-12-14T19:12:51Z vanila: records would be the best way I think
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2014-12-14T19:23:54Z teurastaja: How would i do that from a list parameter i pass to my make function? I cant simply (let ([ls (map (lambda (x) (cons x (list (list)))) ls)]) ...) then set! the already existing links?
2014-12-14T19:25:22Z vanila: instead of (cons x (list (list))) use (node #f x #f)
2014-12-14T19:25:35Z vanila: that way you keep your data representation abstract
2014-12-14T19:25:45Z vanila: and to change it you'd only need to change the three functions node/set-node-prev!/set-node-next!
2014-12-14T19:26:23Z teurastaja: Whats wrong with lists?
2014-12-14T19:26:51Z teurastaja: Ive seen symbols used as well
2014-12-14T19:26:54Z vanila: that's not what I mean
2014-12-14T19:26:56Z vanila: lists are fine
2014-12-14T19:27:09Z vanila: but you should keep your data representation abstract
2014-12-14T19:27:22Z teurastaja: I dont understand
2014-12-14T19:31:10Z cojy: teurastaja: it means make functions for construction and access of whatever structure you decide on
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2014-12-14T19:32:20Z vanila: http://mitpress.mit.edu/sicp/full-text/book/book-Z-H-4.html#%_toc_start chapter 2 "Building Abstractions with Data" explains this well
2014-12-14T19:32:21Z teurastaja: Yes but whats the difference between first setting as a null list, a symbol or #f?
2014-12-14T19:32:33Z vanila: that's not the importnat difference
2014-12-14T19:32:37Z vanila: that doesn't amtter
2014-12-14T19:33:15Z vanila: instead of (let ([ls (map (lambda (x) (cons x (list (list)))) ls)]) ...) you should write (let ([ls (map (lambda (x) (node #f x #f) ls)]) ...) -- for data abstraction
2014-12-14T19:33:37Z teurastaja: Ok
2014-12-14T19:33:44Z teurastaja: Convention?
2014-12-14T19:35:02Z teurastaja: Is there a way to build a doubly-linked circular list non-destructively?
2014-12-14T19:35:12Z vanila: no
2014-12-14T19:35:21Z teurastaja: Ive seen haskellers brag about that
2014-12-14T19:35:21Z vanila: it's impossible to build cyclic structures without  mutation
2014-12-14T19:36:50Z teurastaja: How do haskellers do that? What feature do they have we dont? Monads?
2014-12-14T19:37:03Z offby1: Titanium!
2014-12-14T19:37:05Z vanila: lazy evaluation
2014-12-14T19:37:07Z teurastaja: I dont know much about them
2014-12-14T19:37:21Z teurastaja: Oh but we have that too no?
2014-12-14T19:37:32Z cojy: using mutation
2014-12-14T19:38:12Z vanila: yeah you could translate whatever lazy haskell code into scheme by using DELAY and FORCE
2014-12-14T19:38:15Z cojy: letrec is another way but that too is mutation under the hood
2014-12-14T19:38:22Z vanila: FORCE is implemented using mutation, to cache the result
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2014-12-14T19:41:09Z teurastaja: Ok so instead of (lambda (ls) (set-cdr! (last-pair ls) ls)) oh would you express that in terms of lazy and force?
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2014-12-14T19:41:36Z vanila: I don't think it's a good idea to get the lazyness stuff involved in this
2014-12-14T19:42:17Z teurastaja: (lambda (ls) (set-cdr! (last-pair ls) ls) ls) i mean
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2014-12-14T19:42:49Z teurastaja: Why not?
2014-12-14T19:43:04Z vanila: it will be confusing and make things harder
2014-12-14T19:43:46Z teurastaja: Just for understanding, how would one do that?
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2014-12-14T19:49:09Z teurastaja: No one seems to want to play functionally :(
2014-12-14T19:50:01Z cojy: it's no more functional to do it that way :/
2014-12-14T19:50:40Z vanila: doubly linked lists require mutation to work with
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2014-12-14T19:50:59Z vanila: you can use silly haskell tricks to build one but it's useless
2014-12-14T19:51:22Z vanila: for pure functional data structures you can use you should learn about zippers
2014-12-14T19:51:31Z vanila: (and okasakis book)
2014-12-14T19:52:09Z teurastaja: Like the zip function of srfi-1?
2014-12-14T19:53:52Z vanila: teurastaja, come on man, you can do better than that
2014-12-14T19:54:20Z teurastaja: Lol im reading im reading
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2014-12-15T06:37:34Z Alestan: So I think I'm still missing something with syntax-rules...
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2014-12-15T06:39:38Z Alestan: http://lpaste.net/116506
2014-12-15T06:39:51Z Alestan: It behaves as I would expect, but I don't quite understand why...
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2014-12-15T06:41:28Z Alestan: <body1> and <name> both map to n, but when the <body1> n gets resolved, it looks inside the macro's scope, not in the calling scope,
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2014-12-15T06:42:31Z Alestan: While the first one, <name> should look in the calling scope for the value of n, except that it only defines n...
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2014-12-15T06:46:06Z Alestan: Oh, I think I figured it out...
2014-12-15T06:46:11Z Alestan: Maybe...
2014-12-15T06:46:54Z Alestan: If someone knows a good resource that explains how variable lookups are done with hygienic macros, I'd appreciate knowing about it.
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2014-12-15T07:50:06Z adu: hi Alestan
2014-12-15T07:52:35Z adu: Alestan: do you still need help?
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2014-12-15T08:16:54Z Alestan: Maybe, I think I might have it figured out.
2014-12-15T08:19:19Z Alestan: When the syntax gets defined, it's variables are bound to its namespace, while new namespaces created inside the macro are created inside the calling scope, I had it backwards I think...
2014-12-15T08:22:10Z Alestan: If I'm still wrong about that I'd love someone to point it out before I waste time trying to implement this again...
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2014-12-15T09:09:56Z Alestan: Ugh, nope, still broken...
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2014-12-15T09:43:40Z Alestan: Okay, maybe got it working... I'll probably be back with more problems later...
2014-12-15T09:53:51Z Alestan: Is there someplace with a simple explanation of the ellipsis in syntax-rules?
2014-12-15T09:54:38Z micro^: 32
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2014-12-20T16:33:19Z 
2014-12-20T16:33:19Z names: ccl-logbot dytrivedi___ wilfredh__ greghendershott_ trystero `nik`_ lolcow arrdem_ amoe_ duncanm_ Soft- acieroid` FracV_ kilimanjaro__ daviid bjz_ peterhil` jumblerg Vutral gravicappa suppi_ oldskirt skeuomorf [random] ASau alezost enitiz BitPuffin wzsk hive-mind kazimir42 zadock ijp tadni hiroaki vanila fsckd davexunit oleo _5kg hiyosi evhan Oejet choas stepnem karswell Isp-sec pjdelport mark_weaver Alestan superjudge chameco jkraemer balkamos nitrix
2014-12-20T16:33:19Z names: jyc psy_ ggherdov cky aksatac asumu jcloud ByronJohnson dsp ELLIOTTCABLE wilfredh_ gluegadget greghendershott girrig pjb joneshf-laptop omefire petercommand joast PinealGlandOptic ivan\ bb010g Intensity diginet Natch akkad emlow SHODAN finnrobi_ dmiles_afk MichaelRaskin pygospa zeroish taylanub serhart necronian hilquias mikeyhc net4all ffs Sgeo Khisanth nisstyre maxigas kbtr ft ohama dan64 LeoNerd stamourv nowhereman gabot jrslepak wasamasa gnomon
2014-12-20T16:33:19Z names: Qudit314159 cdidd niklasl mlaine technomancy clog ski sethalves cjh`_ klltkr_ Nshag CatPlusPlus samth kwmiebach weinholt Kryo mario-goulart abbe cmatei z0d twem2 tsuyoshi SirDayBat micro^ fadein DerGuteMoritz certainty haroldwu copec GGMethos c74d rudybot byte48 vikraman Razz ecraven Kruppe ska-fan turbofail TrueShiftBlue offby1 tessier_ ozzloy benaiah kilimanjaro fizzie yrdz fikusz gf3 teiresias cojy shardz carc cibs emma tmh_ dytrivedi__ averell
2014-12-20T16:33:19Z names: mrowe_away swilr yukko dpk eagleflo vukcrni defanor aap Neet Riviera Blkt dualbus utkarsh pchrist antoszka edw C-Keen eMBee Saeren_ aking cross poucet sigjuice zbigniew tstc rotty_ yosafbridge klutometis
2014-12-20T16:33:19Z orwell.freenode.net:#scheme- [freenode-info] help freenode weed out clonebots -- please register your IRC nick and auto-identify: http://freenode.net/faq.shtml#nicksetup
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2014-12-20T19:01:51Z Alestan: So what are the symbols for unsyntax and unsyntax-splicing?  Trying to search google for variants of #' and #` isn't working so well.
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2014-12-20T19:03:48Z ijp: Alestan: #, and #,@
2014-12-20T19:04:00Z ijp: continuing the analogy with quote
2014-12-20T19:05:54Z Alestan: Okay, that's what I assumed, thanks!
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2014-12-20T21:22:11Z mumptai: hi
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2014-12-20T21:33:54Z wasamasa: hello
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2014-12-20T21:57:26Z technomancy: is there any precedent for a scheme compiler that performs a macroexpansion phase in a different runtime?
2014-12-20T21:57:38Z technomancy: for instance, if you're cross-compiling and don't have the target runtime available at compile time
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2014-12-20T22:10:57Z cojy: why would you need the runtime available to do macro expansion?
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2014-12-20T22:46:10Z technomancy: cojy: otherwise the macroexpander would need to be written in C
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2014-12-20T22:50:38Z cojy: huh? I don't understand
2014-12-20T22:51:12Z technomancy: well the idea is that the macro system would run scheme code during the macroexpansion phase
2014-12-20T22:51:33Z technomancy: but I can't use the primary compiler because it emits AVR assembly and I want to run it on a PC
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2014-12-20T23:11:37Z cojy: but then t needs all the compiler on a diff runtime not just macros
2014-12-20T23:13:31Z technomancy: sure
2014-12-20T23:14:00Z technomancy: you'd have a full general-purpose scheme implementation doing .scm -> .scm and then microscheme doing .scm -> .s
2014-12-20T23:14:27Z cojy: well petty much all compilers do that until self hosting
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2014-12-20T23:16:02Z technomancy: good point
2014-12-20T23:17:16Z technomancy: I wonder if there's a sort of go-to standalone macroexpansion tool for bootstrappers and cross-compilers or if everyone just cobbles together their own. a naive implementation would be trivial of course, but I'd like something that could preserve line numbers.
2014-12-20T23:19:54Z cojy: there are "portable" implementations of the syntax-rules/parse etc. themselves but to bootstrap it you need an interpreter or ability to compile and link at runtime
2014-12-20T23:20:27Z technomancy: sure; I am fine with even just calling out from a makefile at this point.
2014-12-20T23:20:53Z technomancy: anything to get out of writing code that can't pattern-match. it hurts so bad. =)
2014-12-20T23:23:27Z cojy: well if its just that any any matcher will do, oleg's one for example is only syntax-rules and doesn't need to run scheme to expand it
2014-12-20T23:25:09Z technomancy: sounds promising
2014-12-20T23:25:12Z technomancy: thanks
2014-12-20T23:25:28Z cojy: an interpreter to bootstrap is by far the easiest way to do this, otherwise the compiler needs to be able to link and run compiled code at runtime
2014-12-20T23:25:54Z cojy: racket/sbcl/clojure etc. can do this easily because the runtime supports it but other ones like chicken and gambit use an interpreter
2014-12-20T23:26:52Z technomancy: oh huh; chicken's eval doesn't use the same compiler?
2014-12-20T23:26:56Z technomancy: I guess that makes sense
2014-12-20T23:27:18Z technomancy: but yeah, there are some contexts in which runtime eval doesn't make sense; microcontrollers being one of them
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2014-12-20T23:29:04Z offby1: technomancy: writing a keylogger for Atreus?
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2014-12-22T05:10:43Z 
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2014-12-22T05:10:43Z names: jrslepak averell aksatac fizzie 32NAARMUJ dan64- pygospa balkamos amoe transfinite cjh` gluegadget dytrivedi__ wilfredh__ greghendershott `nik` leppie arrdem duncanm_ acieroid` FracV kilimanjaro__ peterhil` skeuomorf hive-mind tadni evhan pjdelport superjudge chameco jkraemer nitrix jyc ggherdov jcloud ByronJohnson dsp ELLIOTTCABLE girrig PinealGlandOptic ivan\ Natch akkad emlow SHODAN finnrobi_ zeroish serhart net4all Khisanth kbtr ft ohama LeoNerd
2014-12-22T05:10:43Z names: stamourv nowhereman gabot wasamasa niklasl clog ski sethalves Nshag CatPlusPlus samth kwmiebach Kryo cmatei z0d twem2 tsuyoshi SirDayBat micro^ fadein DerGuteMoritz certainty copec GGMethos rudybot byte48 vikraman ska-fan turbofail TrueShiftBlue offby1 tessier_ ozzloy benaiah kilimanjaro yrdz gf3 teiresias cojy shardz carc emma tmh_ mrowe_away swilr yukko dpk eagleflo vukcrni defanor aap Neet Riviera Blkt dualbus utkarsh pchrist antoszka edw C-Keen
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2014-12-22T05:27:56Z technomancy: yeah, that would help
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2014-12-22T05:56:11Z technomancy: pervasive destructuring in clojure is very convenient, but it means you get nil leaking in where you don't expect it, which leads to really stupid bugs when something is supposed to match but shouldn't
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2014-12-22T10:29:06Z alexander-01: anyone know where I can find info on writing to a binary data file? all the reading I have done so far suggets it is possible but no examples so far .. any help appreciated
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2014-12-22T10:32:03Z wasamasa: what exactly is the problem?
2014-12-22T10:34:55Z wasamasa: it's pretty much the same as writing data to a regular file except you write bytes instead of strings that get decoded automatically with the right encoding
2014-12-22T10:35:04Z alexander-01: I found info on how to open write to and close a file .. I got that sorted out but I want to write to a binary file and I am having trouble finding good info or examples
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2014-12-22T14:54:39Z wasamasa: letrec is confusing the hell out of me
2014-12-22T14:56:53Z vanila: what about it?
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2014-12-22T14:58:00Z wasamasa: I can't even fathom how it works
2014-12-22T14:58:16Z wasamasa: and why you'd want to use it
2014-12-22T14:58:19Z vanila: It has to be implemented with mutation
2014-12-22T14:58:52Z vanila: (letrec ((n1 v1) (n2 v2)) body) is sort of like (let ((n1 #f) (n2 #f)) (set! n1 v1) (set! n2 v2) body)
2014-12-22T15:00:00Z wasamasa: well, if that were it, just using let would be enough, no?
2014-12-22T15:00:35Z vanila: yeah, most language constructs in scheme can just be user defined with a macro
2014-12-22T15:01:08Z z0d: ftp://ftp.cs.utexas.edu/pub/garbage/cs345/schintro-v14/schintro_66.html
2014-12-22T15:01:14Z z0d: this page describes it well I think
2014-12-22T15:02:11Z wasamasa is reading http://www.cs.indiana.edu/~dyb/pubs/fixing-letrec.pdf
2014-12-22T15:02:37Z z0d: wasamasa: try the one I've pasted
2014-12-22T15:03:10Z z0d: that will make it clear for you
2014-12-22T15:03:13Z wasamasa: well, ok, that makes a bit more sense
2014-12-22T15:03:20Z wasamasa: but only for lambdas that call each other
2014-12-22T15:03:51Z wasamasa: I don't see the value for the cases where it's just one function that calls itself since IIUC using a named let would work just fine, right?
2014-12-22T15:04:05Z vanila: you still need letrec for that
2014-12-22T15:04:49Z vanila: (let ((car (lambda (x) (car '(1 2))))) ...) inside this, car will always return 1
2014-12-22T15:05:01Z vanila: it wont infinite loop - but it would with letrec
2014-12-22T15:09:03Z Tau: if one were gonna implement a scheme like interpreter in c, would it be good idea to implement stuff like stacks, queues, linkedlists from scratch or use existing implementations of it like those in glibc?
2014-12-22T15:09:22Z wasamasa: vanila: but that's not a named let?
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2014-12-22T15:09:46Z vanila: oh! Yeah named let totally works
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2014-12-22T15:09:54Z wasamasa: phew
2014-12-22T15:11:04Z vanila: Tau, You would probably be better to implement it yourself and you won't need that many data structures, keep in mind how to interact with GC from the start
2014-12-22T15:11:14Z wasamasa: ok, as to the next question
2014-12-22T15:11:32Z wasamasa: any good examples of stuff using letrec for something more useful than determining whether a number is even or uneven?
2014-12-22T15:14:12Z wasamasa: I've seen it so far once in xpath-parse.scm from a ssax implementation
2014-12-22T15:15:00Z Tau:  vanila what is gc?
2014-12-22T15:15:05Z vanila: garbage collection
2014-12-22T15:15:21Z Tau: i see.
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2014-12-22T15:16:57Z vanila: if you write a lisp interpreter in C you have to bring the GC
2014-12-22T15:17:06Z vanila: if you wrote it in another language that already has GC you wouldn't have to
2014-12-22T15:20:59Z Tau: vanila i was considering java to implement the scheme like interpreter.
2014-12-22T15:21:20Z Tau: i'm not sure though.
2014-12-22T15:21:27Z Tau: i implemented on in python once.
2014-12-22T15:22:13Z Tau: http://sourceforge.net/p/isch/code/ci/master/tree/
2014-12-22T15:22:16Z Tau: but it is too slow.
2014-12-22T15:22:32Z Tau: and i think it has some bugs and it doesnt implement all of basic scheme stuff.
2014-12-22T15:22:38Z vanila: hthat's cool still!
2014-12-22T15:22:57Z vanila: " A scheme interpreter and compiler in python. It compiles scheme code t "
2014-12-22T15:23:00Z vanila: what does it compile to?
2014-12-22T15:23:50Z Tau:  vanila oh. i didnt implement the compiler though.
2014-12-22T15:23:58Z Tau: the compiler thing is not implemented.
2014-12-22T15:24:25Z Tau: i was planning to implement a kind of scheme to C compiler.
2014-12-22T15:24:31Z Tau: like, it reads scheme code then outputs c code.
2014-12-22T15:24:47Z wasamasa: Tau: http://www.call-with-current-continuation.org/scheme-implementation-techniques.pdf
2014-12-22T15:24:47Z rudybot: http://tinyurl.com/m4zve5c
2014-12-22T15:24:47Z vanila: that's something I've been working on for a while
2014-12-22T15:25:15Z Tau:  wasamasa nice.
2014-12-22T15:25:27Z wasamasa: Tau: I've seen the talk one year ago
2014-12-22T15:25:28Z Tau:  vanila like a scheme to c code?
2014-12-22T15:25:45Z wasamasa: Tau: was too much for me at the time, but I do understand its topics a lot better now
2014-12-22T15:26:01Z Tau:  wasamasa i see.
2014-12-22T15:26:22Z Tau: well. i had to drop the isch project because i had picked up some bad design.
2014-12-22T15:26:37Z Tau: i didnt know well how to do tail optmization either.
2014-12-22T15:26:45Z Tau: i ended up using OOP to model everything.
2014-12-22T15:27:19Z Tau: other point is: i mplemented eval as a Sexp method instead of keeping it as a function.
2014-12-22T15:27:24Z Tau: (not sure whether it would matter though)
2014-12-22T15:27:34Z wasamasa wonders what Tau's interpreter is doing, but doesn't know where the entry point is
2014-12-22T15:28:18Z vanila: Tau,yeah except I chose a pure scheme - so that I could use reference counting rather than garbage collection
2014-12-22T15:29:00Z vanila: before this I failed a few times to write a scheme to c compiler (it didn't fully work, some heisenbugs in memory management, too slow to bootstrap..)
2014-12-22T15:29:25Z wasamasa: vanila: doesn't reference counting fail for self-referential structures?
2014-12-22T15:30:02Z Tau:  wasamasa well. i didnt implement common techniques in isch.
2014-12-22T15:30:06Z vanila: wasamasa, that's right but if you ban mutation (no set!, set-car! etc.) and then I think it is ok since every object only holds 'older' values than itself - and there will be no cycles
2014-12-22T15:30:35Z Tau:  wasamasa there is this ex folder with examples.
2014-12-22T15:30:45Z Tau: i managed to run all those examples in isch.
2014-12-22T15:30:50Z Tau: and some projecteuler solutions.
2014-12-22T15:31:06Z vanila: at first I followed Marc Feeley scheme to C in 90 mins: http://lambda-the-ultimate.org/node/349
2014-12-22T15:32:11Z Tau: compiling scheme to c is damn hard.
2014-12-22T15:32:12Z vanila: but it made really slow code, I think you have to do some difficult optimizations for this to be good
2014-12-22T15:32:22Z Tau: i couldnt come up with a concrete model in order to get it done.
2014-12-22T15:32:49Z vanila: Tau, I can explain the rough steps that do work - except it needs more optimizations to be really good
2014-12-22T15:33:01Z Tau:  vanila i see.
2014-12-22T15:33:12Z wasamasa: Tau: did you read the slides?
2014-12-22T15:33:21Z Tau:  wasamasa not yet.
2014-12-22T15:33:36Z wasamasa: Tau: well, you should, they explain known techniques and gotchas when compiling to C
2014-12-22T15:33:52Z wasamasa: Tau: since the author did write a mature scheme implementation that successfully compiles to C :P
2014-12-22T15:33:57Z vanila: The main obstacle is lambda. To get rid of lambda - turn the code into first order code - you need to do closure conversion
2014-12-22T15:34:11Z Tau:  wasamasa i'll.
2014-12-22T15:34:36Z Tau:  vanila yes.
2014-12-22T15:35:26Z vanila: closure conversion is where you pass a vector in containing every free variable that the lambda terms needs as an extra 'env' parameter, and make it do vector lookups instead of using free variables
2014-12-22T15:35:36Z vanila: after that you can put every lambda at the top level - so it's almost a C program already
2014-12-22T15:36:41Z vanila: but you need to handle proper tail recursion too, for that you can make a trampoline (just a loop which invokes the closure it gets returned)
2014-12-22T15:37:09Z vanila: now to perform a tail call, instead of invoking a closure you return it - the stack is reclaimed before it gets called by the trampoline
2014-12-22T15:37:46Z Tau: i did tail recursion in isch but i had no formal concept of what trampolines were.
2014-12-22T15:38:03Z Tau: i sort of implemented a set of hacks to do the tail recursion.
2014-12-22T15:38:21Z vanila: to that you have to add garbage collection otherwise it will use up too much memory: You could either hold a big linked list of the 'root' or alternatively what I tried was using the stack frames as the GC root
2014-12-22T15:38:49Z Tau: yup
2014-12-22T15:40:04Z vanila: the slides wasamasa linnked look really good, I've gotta read those
2014-12-22T15:40:17Z vanila: just want to add this: http://matt.might.net/articles/compiling-scheme-to-c/ which is explained very clearly
2014-12-22T15:40:23Z wasamasa: vanila: didn't I give you the link to them months ago?
2014-12-22T15:40:45Z vanila: I don't remember
2014-12-22T15:41:25Z wasamasa: http://media.ccc.de/browse/conferences/froscon/2013/c116_lisp_-_2013-08-24_16:30_-_scheme_implementation_techniques_-_felix_-_1258.html#video
2014-12-22T15:41:26Z rudybot: http://tinyurl.com/mbl49u5
2014-12-22T15:41:47Z wasamasa: I'm the slouching guy in the video
2014-12-22T15:41:51Z Tau: yeah. i'm taking note of these links.
2014-12-22T15:41:53Z vanila: haha
2014-12-22T15:41:57Z Tau: ill read all them.
2014-12-22T15:41:59Z vanila: cool! will be a good watch
2014-12-22T15:42:01Z wasamasa: because it was really, really tiresome
2014-12-22T15:42:07Z Tau: before jumping into the scheme impl in c.
2014-12-22T15:42:52Z vanila: Tau, would you be implementing this in scheme itself? (+ C bits for runtime etc.)
2014-12-22T15:43:35Z Tau:  vanila well. i plan to implement an interpreter of scheme written in c.
2014-12-22T15:43:47Z Tau: i'll use a totally different model for it.
2014-12-22T15:43:56Z vanila: alright, cool!
2014-12-22T15:44:01Z Tau: something that i thought yesterday.
2014-12-22T15:44:36Z Tau: i cant assert it is gonna work until i have everything done.
2014-12-22T15:45:18Z vanila: sounds really interesting :)
2014-12-22T15:45:28Z Tau: it is a huge work too.
2014-12-22T15:45:40Z vanila: what about describing it roughly?
2014-12-22T15:45:52Z Tau:  vanila i plan to do that too.
2014-12-22T15:46:32Z Tau: https://github.com/iogf/isch this is the repo of the project. there is nothing there so far.
2014-12-22T15:46:37Z Tau: but ill add stuff soon.
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2014-12-22T15:57:41Z wasamasa wonders whether define was extended to have a named form to avoid the use of letrec for recursion
2014-12-22T15:58:50Z wasamasa: Tau: now that I'm reading the slides again, I guess your interpreter did tree walking
2014-12-22T15:59:54Z Tau:  wasamasa i wasnt aware of the right characterization at the time i made isch.
2014-12-22T16:00:00Z Tau: nice to know that now.
2014-12-22T16:00:21Z wasamasa: and as felix states in the talk, it's a pretty natural way of going at it
2014-12-22T16:00:27Z Tau:  wasamasa which are the other techniques besides tree walking?
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2014-12-22T16:00:39Z wasamasa: heck, it's how mccarthy defined it in his paper
2014-12-22T16:00:58Z wasamasa: Tau: bytecode interpreters are popular and explained a bit there
2014-12-22T16:01:06Z Tau: i see.
2014-12-22T16:01:19Z wasamasa: not only in scheme
2014-12-22T16:01:20Z Tau: i did tail optmization based on the following assumption:
2014-12-22T16:01:26Z wasamasa: ruby and python use them
2014-12-22T16:02:01Z wasamasa: they're common in games that implement rather dynamic stuff (like, level editors)
2014-12-22T16:02:42Z Tau: function that implement conditions, (define (sum-ten c)
2014-12-22T16:02:42Z Tau:         (if (< c 200000)
2014-12-22T16:02:42Z Tau:             (sum-ten (+ c 1))            c))
2014-12-22T16:03:07Z wasamasa: the general idea behind them is pretty simple to understand
2014-12-22T16:03:20Z wasamasa: what needs most effort is thinking up a good way to use a byte for instructions
2014-12-22T16:03:26Z Tau: so, if maps to a class/object and if knows how to do tail optmization according to its functionality.
2014-12-22T16:03:50Z Tau: 'if' knows*
2014-12-22T16:04:52Z Tau: so, whenever you pass two sexps to 'if' it checks whether it is possible to do tail optmization if it is it just returns a Sexp structure instead of building a new environment of variables for the call.
2014-12-22T16:06:59Z vanila: bytecode interpretation is interesting, I don't too well understand the benefits of it
2014-12-22T16:07:12Z vanila: is it faster than tree walking because of the linear structure?
2014-12-22T16:07:59Z wasamasa: well, you compile the code into bytecode first, that step allows one to do optimization
2014-12-22T16:08:09Z wasamasa: the interpreter itself isn't that interesting
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2014-12-22T16:24:01Z wasamasa: hum, dead buffers aren't in `buffer-list' either
2014-12-22T16:24:02Z wasamasa: weird
2014-12-22T16:24:47Z wasamasa: and `kill-buffer' operates only on live buffers
2014-12-22T16:24:49Z wasamasa: wat do
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2014-12-22T16:28:15Z wasamasa: oh damnit
2014-12-22T16:28:17Z wasamasa: wrong window
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2014-12-22T17:05:21Z Tau:  vanila are you into python?
2014-12-22T17:05:35Z vanila: i don't know how to use it
2014-12-22T17:05:57Z vanila: I have just got curious about it yesteray since my friend linked me about a python compiler
2014-12-22T17:09:44Z uris77: the pixie lisp?
2014-12-22T17:10:08Z vanila: https://ep2013.europython.eu/conference/talks/nuitka-the-python-compiler
2014-12-22T17:10:24Z vanila: this one, comment thread starring GVR
2014-12-22T17:11:10Z uris77: interesting. I stopped using python for 2 reasons: the 2.7 vs 3.x debacle, and the awful state of its package managers.
2014-12-22T17:11:29Z vanila: yeah I sometimes have to fix shit because of the python 2 vs 3 thing
2014-12-22T17:11:32Z vanila: thanks guido
2014-12-22T17:11:51Z Tau:  vanila i see.
2014-12-22T17:12:06Z vanila: but he is compiling it to C++, pretty weird..
2014-12-22T17:13:26Z Tau: vanila do you use vim/emacs?
2014-12-22T17:13:36Z vanila: yeah
2014-12-22T17:16:17Z Tau:  vanila vim or emacs?
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2014-12-22T17:16:50Z vanila: emacs
2014-12-22T17:16:59Z vanila: because of paredit-mode
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2014-12-22T18:03:50Z Tau:  vanila i see.
2014-12-22T18:05:56Z vanila: why does it matter
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2014-12-22T18:12:14Z Tau:  vanila it doesnt.
2014-12-22T18:12:29Z Tau:  vanila i implemented a vim-like in python, so i was going to invite you to my chan #vy.
2014-12-22T18:12:34Z Tau: you could like to use it though.
2014-12-22T18:12:47Z vanila: oh, thank you! I haven't learned to use vim yet though
2014-12-22T18:13:05Z Tau:  vanila vy doesnt mimic vim, it is modal like vim though.
2014-12-22T18:13:26Z Tau:  vanila if you feel likely taking a look at it, let me know.
2014-12-22T18:13:34Z Tau: or join #vy.
2014-12-22T18:16:31Z Tau: nevermind.
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2014-12-22T18:24:03Z wasamasa: just show me the sources if anything
2014-12-22T18:26:59Z wasamasa: https://github.com/iogf/vy
2014-12-22T18:27:02Z wasamasa: that looks like it
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2014-12-30T02:30:05Z Pixel_Outlaw: Anyone ever ask MIT if they can re-sample and upload the old SICP videos?
2014-12-30T02:30:37Z Pixel_Outlaw: Just did, wondered if I was being redundant.
2014-12-30T02:32:40Z oleo: re-sample ?
2014-12-30T02:32:47Z oleo: they are there......
2014-12-30T02:33:24Z oleo: not sure if anyone's willing to reteach scheme or lisp via sicp .....
2014-12-30T02:33:38Z oleo: again....
2014-12-30T02:34:10Z Pixel_Outlaw: I assume the original sources are something like 480i. The videos presented are only 240.
2014-12-30T02:34:16Z Pixel_Outlaw: 240p
2014-12-30T02:34:36Z Pixel_Outlaw: It has some historical significance to me.
2014-12-30T02:34:37Z vanila: thw quality is pretty good considering
2014-12-30T02:34:43Z vanila: I hope they do resample that would be nice
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2014-12-30T02:38:02Z Pixel_Outlaw: I think SICP is still valid as a learning tool. A good portion of it is applicable to all Schemes, Common Lisp (with slightly different names and NIL = '()) and possibly Clojure but I've written that off as a non-traditional LISP.
2014-12-30T02:38:19Z vanila: Clojure seems pretty ok
2014-12-30T02:38:27Z vanila: its different but thats good
2014-12-30T02:38:50Z vanila: people should invent different languages
2014-12-30T02:39:51Z Pixel_Outlaw: I'm not a fan of mandatory immutability but I see some people are. Also some of the logical forms have been assigned different syntax. I think COND might be one.
2014-12-30T02:40:31Z Pixel_Outlaw: Also some of the expressions require something like a vector rather than a list if I recall.
2014-12-30T02:41:07Z vanila: I heard a guy is adding macros to clojure, so I tried to nudge him a little towards hygiene implementation notes but I don't think he was very interested haha
2014-12-30T02:42:42Z cojy: Pixel_Outlaw: immutability isn't mandatory at all it's just the default for the provided sequences and maps
2014-12-30T02:42:46Z Pixel_Outlaw: I'm very much a traditionalist though. I'm more of a fan of keeping syntax simple and just extending the language to meet modern needs with multimedia and webservice.
2014-12-30T02:43:15Z cojy: also sometimes vectors are just better where conses have been used as a hack to have immutable sequences
2014-12-30T02:43:32Z Pixel_Outlaw: Oh! I recall something like (cons 2 3) being unacceptable too.
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2014-12-30T02:43:36Z Pixel_Outlaw: Which is odd conceptually.
2014-12-30T02:43:45Z cojy: yea you can only have proper lists
2014-12-30T02:43:50Z Pixel_Outlaw: -_-;
2014-12-30T02:44:28Z cojy: Pixel_Outlaw: that's to work with the ad-hoc polymorphism over sequences
2014-12-30T02:44:34Z cojy: you can make your own conses if you want
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2014-12-30T02:45:42Z Pixel_Outlaw: I guess the cons cell is kind of the heart of the Lisp machine so it is an annoyance due to me. Clojure can be what it wants.
2014-12-30T02:46:03Z Pixel_Outlaw: *to me
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2014-12-30T02:47:44Z vanila: yeah i mean obviously its different
2014-12-30T02:47:56Z vanila: i dont understand the point of it at all to be honet
2014-12-30T02:48:07Z vanila: but its cool that normal people are doing some lisp
2014-12-30T02:48:19Z vanila: ill stick with scheme
2014-12-30T02:48:41Z Pixel_Outlaw: I need to do something meaningful in Racket
2014-12-30T02:49:19Z Pixel_Outlaw: I'm not into web stuff though and that seems to be all the rage.
2014-12-30T02:49:34Z Pixel_Outlaw: I like personal applications more. Tools etc.
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2014-12-30T04:54:53Z cky: Pixel_Outlaw: FWIW, in SRFI 41 streams, you can't have arbitrary objects in the stream-cdr either. ;-)
2014-12-30T04:55:14Z cky: And Clojure sequences are a bit like streams.
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2014-12-30T08:38:41Z lrs: anyone know how I could do a check function that does this
2014-12-30T08:38:57Z lrs: > (check (* int int)
2014-12-30T08:39:00Z lrs: int
2014-12-30T08:39:17Z lrs: > (check (* int bolean)
2014-12-30T08:39:24Z lrs: Error.
2014-12-30T08:39:26Z lrs: Etc..
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2014-12-30T08:48:41Z jcloud: is that supposed to check the type signatures?
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2014-12-30T08:57:04Z ecraven: you want overloaded functions?
2014-12-30T08:57:22Z lrs: I dont know
2014-12-30T08:57:30Z lrs: I think I just need t define int and boolan
2014-12-30T08:57:40Z lrs: And then its supposed to do all these calculations itsefl
2014-12-30T08:57:58Z lrs: Example :
2014-12-30T08:57:58Z lrs:  > (check '(= (< (+ int int) (quotient int int)) (> int int)))
2014-12-30T08:57:59Z lrs:   bool
2014-12-30T08:59:49Z Pixel_Outlaw: You are trying to determine the type of a piece of data?
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2014-12-30T08:59:53Z ecraven: that looks like some sort of testing framework? or maybe type checking? I think we need mor econtext
2014-12-30T09:00:24Z Pixel_Outlaw: Also, what variant of Scheme you are using.
2014-12-30T09:00:26Z lrs: Well I can use the operators
2014-12-30T09:00:48Z lrs: +, -,*, / , quotietn < = and or. And the tps i can use is int, real or bool
2014-12-30T09:00:58Z lrs: *types
2014-12-30T09:01:20Z lrs: *quotient
2014-12-30T09:06:09Z Pixel_Outlaw: What problem are you trying to solve.
2014-12-30T09:07:15Z Pixel_Outlaw: Casting to a specific type will depend on your scheme interpreter.
2014-12-30T09:07:38Z Pixel_Outlaw: Comparing different types should not be done with = unless they are both numeric.
2014-12-30T09:07:58Z cojy: Pixel_Outlaw: he is trying to write a typechecker
2014-12-30T09:08:07Z cojy: all of the code inside check is quoted if you notice
2014-12-30T09:08:44Z cojy: lrs: you have to define the types for all of those functions manually into a map
2014-12-30T09:09:04Z cojy: then write a simple evaluator to look them up and see if the given ones match what's defined
2014-12-30T09:09:17Z cojy: have you written an interpreter yet?
2014-12-30T09:09:52Z lrs: cojy, How?
2014-12-30T09:10:20Z lrs: cojy, http://lpaste.net/5118971812713070592 This was an example i tried :S
2014-12-30T09:10:30Z lrs: But set-car is gone in new racket :S
2014-12-30T09:10:50Z lrs: So I dont know. I suppose I should do like you suggest cojy.
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2014-12-30T09:15:00Z cojy: lrs: it'
2014-12-30T09:15:08Z cojy: it's really easy if you've written a small interpreter before
2014-12-30T09:15:08Z lrs: it'?
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2014-12-30T09:15:15Z cojy: you just return the types instead of values
2014-12-30T09:15:20Z lrs: cojy, Im a beginner
2014-12-30T09:15:30Z cojy: is this for school or a problem you saw somewhere?
2014-12-30T09:15:36Z lrs: School problem
2014-12-30T09:15:58Z cojy: what did you do before this? was it something similar?
2014-12-30T09:16:16Z lrs: No, this is the first type of this type of programming
2014-12-30T09:16:28Z lrs: I know the scheme basics and such
2014-12-30T09:21:53Z cojy: https://www.refheap.com/95587
2014-12-30T09:22:03Z cojy: here is an example very simple evaluator that is similar to what you will want
2014-12-30T09:22:08Z cojy: this returns actual values
2014-12-30T09:22:18Z cojy: you will want to only check and return types
2014-12-30T09:22:56Z cojy: so for example on + instead of actually doing + on the 2nd and 3rd parts of the list, you will want to check they are ints, and error if they aren't
2014-12-30T09:23:22Z lrs: cojy, Cool
2014-12-30T09:23:53Z cojy: and for example you dont have numbers, but you will have types which are symbols so you want to return those as literals just like numbers are here
2014-12-30T09:24:38Z cojy: you can have a big assoc list of builtin types like (define builtins '((= (int int) bool) ...) where (int int) is the input types and bool is the output type
2014-12-30T09:24:53Z cojy: and look them up and test, or you can just add a cond clause for each like + and = in  the paste i gave you
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2014-12-30T09:29:37Z cojy: lrs: https://www.refheap.com/95588
2014-12-30T09:30:26Z cojy: it checks both inputs are ints, and returns 'int because + returns an int
2014-12-30T09:31:14Z cojy: i dont know how much you've learned since last time you were around, but pattern matching and map lookups can make this much nicer
2014-12-30T09:32:20Z lrs: cojy, I dnt get the last part
2014-12-30T09:32:51Z cojy: well the paste i gave you was just an example normally interpreter because i dont want to just give you the answer
2014-12-30T09:33:00Z cojy: the bottom is an example part of the one you need to write
2014-12-30T09:33:03Z cojy: that works with types instead of values
2014-12-30T09:34:07Z lrs: Whats the 'int
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2014-12-30T09:36:14Z cojy: i updated it , refresh
2014-12-30T09:36:33Z cojy: lrs: you want check to return either 'int or 'bool, or throw an error
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2014-12-30T09:41:57Z lrs: cojy, Do I need to define int and bool?
2014-12-30T09:42:11Z lrs: Or do i do that in the evaluator
2014-12-30T09:42:55Z cojy: well they will just be symbols
2014-12-30T09:43:02Z cojy: that's what the first case is for in check
2014-12-30T09:43:05Z cojy: if you refreshed the paste
2014-12-30T09:43:14Z cojy: eval was just an example, sorry if it was confusing
2014-12-30T09:43:20Z cojy: it's not something you will use directly
2014-12-30T09:45:38Z lrs: How do you mean?
2014-12-30T09:45:39Z cojy: i added some extra comments for you https://www.refheap.com/95588
2014-12-30T09:48:00Z cojy: that's enough to (check '(+ int (+ int int)))
2014-12-30T09:48:04Z cojy: i'm going to bed, hope that's enough for you to figure it out
2014-12-30T09:48:17Z lrs: Thank yu
2014-12-30T09:48:23Z lrs: I appreciate it
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2014-12-30T11:17:36Z ffwacom: http://i25.tinypic.com/28lx99g.jpg
2014-12-30T11:19:08Z wasamasa: .
2014-12-30T11:19:20Z wasamasa is not sure what to make of this
2014-12-30T11:19:42Z wasamasa proceeds reading SICP
2014-12-30T11:23:11Z tadni: It's weird how big of a deal SICP is in 4chan, tech-based culture that it's practically a meme now.
2014-12-30T11:24:35Z tadni: I kinda rip on that, on my introductory blog post a bit. Starting with major huperbole, apt for one to apply Poe's Law to, if not prompted shortly thereafter.
2014-12-30T11:25:32Z ffwacom: tadni: http://i25.tinypic.com/28lx99g.jpg
2014-12-30T11:25:58Z tadni: ffwacom: Yeah, that's what I was refering to.
2014-12-30T11:26:10Z ffwacom: tadni: http://i25.tinypic.com/28lx99g.jpg
2014-12-30T11:26:16Z ffwacom: nah
2014-12-30T11:26:16Z wasamasa: !ops
2014-12-30T11:26:23Z tadni: ffwacom: Don't be like that.
2014-12-30T11:26:28Z ffwacom: it's hyperbole
2014-12-30T11:26:29Z wasamasa: ,ops
2014-12-30T11:26:41Z tadni: ffwacom: Hyperbole is not spamming.
2014-12-30T11:27:15Z ffwacom: brap
2014-12-30T11:29:06Z wasamasa: tadni: your blog still isn't back
2014-12-30T11:29:17Z tadni: wasamasa: I said by the 2nd.
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2014-12-30T11:30:02Z tadni: wasamasa: Also, I'm repurposing that domain, buying and moving to parenthetical.io -- probably today.
2014-12-30T11:30:20Z tadni: By the end of today, I'll likely have an nginx page there.
2014-12-30T11:30:20Z wasamasa: tadni: careful, that's more than twice the money
2014-12-30T11:31:00Z tadni: wasamasa: Yeah, I know. Aesthetics man.
2014-12-30T11:31:37Z wasamasa: hmm
2014-12-30T11:31:41Z ffwacom: what's your age tadni?
2014-12-30T11:31:44Z wasamasa: call-cc.io is supposedly available
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2014-12-30T11:34:52Z tadni: ffwacom: 22.
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2014-12-30T12:38:58Z ffwacom: tadni: ah
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2014-12-30T22:24:53Z Beluki: I know it's an oddity to say the least but... any good Scheme implementation for DOS?
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2014-12-30T23:00:48Z motersen: Beluki: I don't know much about DOS but can't you compile one from source?
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2014-12-31T00:08:30Z Beluki: motersen: most I tried segfault or misbehave (e.g UMB Scheme).
2014-12-31T00:09:32Z pjb: Beluki: perhaps you'd need an older machine.
2014-12-31T00:09:55Z Beluki: I'm running FreeDOS on VirtualBox.
2014-12-31T00:09:56Z pjb: Beluki: since 1995, nobody uses MS-DOS anymore: either Linux or MS-Windows-95 :-)
2014-12-31T00:10:06Z pjb: So you'd need hardware from 1995.
2014-12-31T00:10:14Z pjb: (or a good emulation thereof).
2014-12-31T00:10:16Z Beluki: Yeah, I know, I'm trying to get a complete OS that I can (more or less) understand completely.
2014-12-31T00:10:34Z Beluki: Even if it's a relatively bad one (no multitasking and such) is a fun thing.
2014-12-31T00:10:42Z Beluki: But I don't want to write utilities in C.
2014-12-31T00:10:54Z pjb: Just write your own OS in scheme.
2014-12-31T00:10:58Z Beluki: Heh.
2014-12-31T00:11:07Z Beluki: I'm certainly not up to that task.
2014-12-31T00:11:13Z pjb: http://wiki.osdev.org/Getting_Started
2014-12-31T00:11:24Z pjb: It's by doing that you learn.
2014-12-31T00:11:39Z pjb: And really, an OS is not that hard to write.
2014-12-31T00:11:54Z pjb: when you write it in a high level programming language.
2014-12-31T00:12:21Z pjb: Of course, if you write it in assembler, it's another story.  But any program written in assembler is much harder.
2014-12-31T00:12:31Z Beluki: I tried following a tutorial in the past (using C and nasm).
2014-12-31T00:12:54Z Beluki: I got to the point where it booted (simple multitasking with a fixed number of tasks, no fork() and such).
2014-12-31T00:13:07Z Beluki: But it was incredibly hard and time-consuming, at least for me.
2014-12-31T00:13:43Z Beluki: So I'm trying to understand the simplest yet usable one I can find which seems to be FreeDOS.
2014-12-31T00:14:35Z fsckd: iirc Guile can work in FreeDOS
2014-12-31T00:15:22Z Beluki: Seriously? I remember it was a pain to even get it to work on Windows.
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2014-12-31T00:15:32Z Beluki: Maybe I should try now, thanks.
2014-12-31T00:16:29Z fsckd: haha, you didn't say easiest to install :P tbh, i don't use DOS. Guile is the only one i know of which might work
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2014-12-31T00:17:22Z Beluki: It's worth the trouble if it does work, I remember Guile being quite complete and robust.
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2014-12-31T00:39:28Z offby1: I remember it being fairly Unix-centric
2014-12-31T00:39:36Z offby1: I'd be _very_ surprised if it worked on DOS
2014-12-31T00:39:43Z offby1: unless it's some ancient version
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2014-12-31T00:42:22Z Beluki: I got one working on DOS.
2014-12-31T00:42:34Z Beluki: s9fes, the book version, seems to work fine.
2014-12-31T00:43:08Z Beluki: The newer one spits a ton of errors when compiling, but it shouldn't be hard to fix knowing the older one works.
2014-12-31T00:43:17Z Beluki: So good. :))
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2014-12-31T01:24:00Z Pixel_Outlaw: I wish there was a concise tutorial in writing Scheme in C or C++. It would be nice to just have something people could use to make their own single header file scheme to interoperate with C/C++ since those languages have all the libraries.
2014-12-31T01:24:33Z Pixel_Outlaw: Ideally a small lisp machine that runs inside a C/C++ program that can recieve scheme strings and return C/C++ values.
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2014-12-31T01:31:22Z slucx: tinyscheme Pixel_Outlaw
2014-12-31T01:36:18Z Beluki: And s9fes has a book explaining all the implementation too.
2014-12-31T01:36:37Z Pixel_Outlaw: s9fes?
2014-12-31T01:38:30Z Pixel_Outlaw: Oh I see. Part of me wants to see how they get functions that return multiple types.
2014-12-31T01:38:45Z Pixel_Outlaw: C doesn't exactly like that conceptually, C++ even more so.
2014-12-31T01:39:47Z Beluki: Note that those don't focus on interoperability with C/C++.
2014-12-31T01:39:59Z Pixel_Outlaw: I understand how Scheme works at the Scheme level, but I'd be interested in seeing how they actually make the concepts work at the lower level.
2014-12-31T01:41:48Z Pixel_Outlaw: Lisp machine implementation in far less flexible languages.
2014-12-31T01:42:30Z Beluki: The s9fes book does teach stuff like writing a (simple) garbage collector or implementing continuations if that's what you are after.
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2014-12-31T01:51:24Z Riastradh: Beluki: Old versions of MIT Scheme are supposed to have worked on DOS, and should be extractable from the Git history.  I think support for DOS proper was dropped around 1993 or so.
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2014-12-31T01:53:40Z Beluki: Riastradh: thanks a lot. I wonder if edwin was included back then.
2014-12-31T01:55:22Z Pixel_Outlaw: I saw edwin on an SICP video.
2014-12-31T01:55:39Z Pixel_Outlaw: :>
2014-12-31T01:56:33Z Beluki: Thanks everyone for the suggestions, help is appreciated.
2014-12-31T01:56:37Z Beluki: Good night!
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