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2014-09-01T00:37:33Z offby1: sorta kinda
2014-09-01T00:37:38Z offby1: depends what you mean by "work with"
2014-09-01T00:37:43Z offby1: there are some OK emacs modes for racket
2014-09-01T00:37:53Z offby1: none are truly slick, but geiser is pretty good
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2014-09-01T02:47:32Z zRecursive: Are there any CAS like Maxima developed by Scheme ?
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2014-09-01T03:02:06Z jcowan: hey ho
2014-09-01T03:05:02Z kilimanjaro: Hello
2014-09-01T03:05:25Z jcowan: I have just announced a new SRFI, an immutable list library.
2014-09-01T03:06:31Z kilimanjaro: Link?
2014-09-01T03:07:18Z jcowan: http://www.ccil.org/~cowan/temp/srfi-116.html until it's posted at the SRFI site.
2014-09-01T03:07:21Z jcowan: Reviews are welcome.
2014-09-01T03:07:31Z jcowan: Code is at http://www.ccil.org/~cowan/temp/ilists.tar.gz
2014-09-01T03:09:23Z pyro-_: can we make cyclic structures without mutation?
2014-09-01T03:09:52Z pyro-_ is now known as pyro-
2014-09-01T03:10:23Z zRecursive: What is cyclic structure ?
2014-09-01T03:12:33Z pyro-: say, a list that contrains itself as one of its elements, as an example
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2014-09-01T03:13:13Z pyro-: if you set-car! one of the elements of a list to the head of the list
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2014-09-01T03:13:49Z evhan: pyro-: Does (read (open-input-string "#0=(1 #0#)")) count?
2014-09-01T03:14:40Z pyro-: evhan: i suppose it does. i guess we can both see it's not perfectly satisfying though
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2014-09-01T03:15:11Z kyfho: is there anything in scheme were scheme can be the database instead of using something like  postgresql?
2014-09-01T03:15:48Z jcowan: There has to be mutation *somewhere*; the question is whether it's exposed.
2014-09-01T03:16:47Z pyro-: the haskell wiki has a page entitled "tying the knot", which makes a cyclic list with let. not sure how it works. something to do with non strict evaluation?
2014-09-01T03:16:56Z jcowan: http://trac.sacrideo.us/wg/wiki/CyclesMedernach is a preliminary proposal for immutable bidirectional cycle objects.  The library uses mutation under the table to set them up, but the user has no access to that.
2014-09-01T03:17:19Z pyro-: thanks, i'll take a look
2014-09-01T03:17:20Z jcowan: Haskell depends heavily on mutation in its implementation, though it doesn't expose mutation.
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2014-09-01T03:38:05Z zwer: he was talking about mutation at the language level though
2014-09-01T03:38:44Z zwer: how the language is implemented doesn't matter
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2014-09-01T03:40:03Z pyro-: right, how to make cycles in an computatational model without mutation
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2014-09-01T03:41:13Z pyro-: i guess in the lambda calculus we can use use thunks for streams ala sicp and have the last thunk return the head of the list maybe?
2014-09-01T03:41:26Z pyro-: i'm not sure if that's what i really meant either, though
2014-09-01T03:48:11Z pyro-: that I can see, that CyclesMedernach link can't be used to make more complicated cycles like a direct representation of a cyclic graph
2014-09-01T03:48:46Z pyro-: not that i regularly have a use for complicated cyclic immutable pair combinations
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2014-09-01T05:22:39Z zRecursive: After using CL for 2/3 years, is it worthy to study Scheme ?
2014-09-01T05:25:48Z ASau: I'd say, 8 months is not enough.
2014-09-01T05:27:39Z zRecursive: But it seems it is hard to pick an canonical implementation of Scheme ?
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2014-09-01T05:42:11Z tadni: Aw, I was gonna make a Canonical pun towards ZRecursive.
2014-09-01T05:42:23Z tadni: "Guile ships with Ubuntu."
2014-09-01T05:42:39Z tadni: 1.8 though.
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2014-09-01T06:14:24Z vanila: is there any way to make the gensyms in racket easier to read?
2014-09-01T06:14:38Z vanila: It's giving me z18086, but i'd like shorter ones
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2014-09-01T07:05:56Z samth: vanila: you can't make them shorter, but you can give `gensym` a prefix
2014-09-01T07:06:07Z samth: rudybot: (gensym 'vanila)
2014-09-01T07:06:08Z rudybot: samth: your sandbox is ready
2014-09-01T07:06:08Z rudybot: samth: ; Value: 'vanila2489
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2014-09-01T07:07:12Z vanila: alright that looks nice! thanks
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2014-09-01T09:12:24Z taylanub has a GNU Emacs build that can be scripted with Scheme right now, but doesn't know what to do with it
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2014-09-01T10:03:45Z civodul: taylanub: M-: (display "pretty cool\n") RET
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2014-09-01T10:18:44Z taylanub: :)
2014-09-01T10:19:56Z taylanub: damn, Elisp and Scheme strings aren't unified yet :P  http://i.imgur.com/6vLNSDw.png
2014-09-01T10:21:11Z civodul: oh
2014-09-01T10:21:18Z civodul: but where does 'el-message' come from?
2014-09-01T10:21:34Z civodul: the use-modules forms above use different prefixes
2014-09-01T10:21:34Z taylanub: ah, you see #:prefix ef- there for functions; previously I did the same with el- before remembering variables are elsewhere and repeating it with ev- and ef-
2014-09-01T10:21:43Z civodul: ok
2014-09-01T10:22:10Z civodul: and the default language for *scratch* and M-: is Scheme?
2014-09-01T10:22:53Z taylanub: nope, defaults are Elisp and will probably remain so.  I entered scheme-interaction-mode explicitly in the scratch buffer.
2014-09-01T10:23:44Z taylanub: well it's a triviality anyway; one can bind M-: as one wishes
2014-09-01T10:24:20Z civodul: yes, sure
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2014-09-01T11:04:33Z b_jonas: taylanub: they can't be. elisp is a crazy stupid language.
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2014-09-01T11:04:51Z DGASAU: It isn't "crazy stupid language".
2014-09-01T11:05:01Z DGASAU: It is simply very archaic.
2014-09-01T11:05:16Z b_jonas: yeah, ok
2014-09-01T11:05:23Z b_jonas: it's a crazy archaic language
2014-09-01T11:05:36Z taylanub: heh
2014-09-01T11:05:44Z DGASAU: It's the same as calling FORTRAN IV crazy stupid just because it was created in sixties.
2014-09-01T11:05:58Z taylanub: it's pretty neat in its own ways.  the mere fact that it's a Lisp goes a long way IMO :)  sexpr syntax, macros, ...
2014-09-01T11:06:21Z DGASAU: ...when very few languages existed.
2014-09-01T11:07:02Z DGASAU: EmacsLisp is surprising in its own way though.
2014-09-01T11:07:24Z DGASAU: It demonstrates how far you can go with dynamic scoping.
2014-09-01T11:07:39Z taylanub: and there are people who like it and don't want to learn a new language.  can't push Scheme down someone's throat who's been writing Elisp for a long time and likes it
2014-09-01T11:07:40Z DGASAU: Although it demonstrates all problems of the latter.
2014-09-01T11:08:35Z DGASAU: Dynamic scoping enables some hacks that are impossible in Scheme though.
2014-09-01T11:08:36Z b_jonas: ok, then x86 is a crazy cpu architecture these days. they have found out a decade ago that it's better these days if instructions operating on smaller pieces of data overwrite whole registers instead of just the lower part of them, yet when they added the new extensions of 256-bit and 512-bit media registers, they made the 128-bit media instructions update only the lower part of those registers, repeating the same mistake.
2014-09-01T11:08:54Z DGASAU: This is good for environments like Emacs in some cases.
2014-09-01T11:09:18Z taylanub: FWIW  http://www.reddit.com/r/emacs/comments/2f2n9h/guileemacs_gsoc_2014_any_news/  http://www.emacswiki.org/emacs/GuileEmacs
2014-09-01T11:09:18Z rudybot: http://tinyurl.com/q5uauw5
2014-09-01T11:10:52Z b_jonas: when was emacs lisp created really? how old is it?
2014-09-01T11:12:04Z taylanub: older than CL, and about as old as Scheme.  (the latter was very young then, lacking proper implementations, if I'm not mistaken)
2014-09-01T11:12:59Z b_jonas: um, what does that mean in years? I don't really know lisp history, and I'd like to compare it to other languages
2014-09-01T11:13:08Z DGASAU: Late seventies.
2014-09-01T11:13:11Z b_jonas: ok
2014-09-01T11:13:13Z DGASAU: Like 76-78.
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2014-09-01T11:13:37Z taylanub: Scheme is concretely from '75, which is when the paper AIM-349 was released.
2014-09-01T11:13:37Z b_jonas: so the dark ages, back when every paper on combinatorics used half nonstandard terminology, and the first page had to introduce notation.
2014-09-01T11:14:19Z taylanub: Elisp I couldn't track to any exact date, early Emacs versions are quite a mess
2014-09-01T11:14:33Z taylanub: (Wikipedia will tell you)
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2014-09-01T11:15:31Z b_jonas: sure, I don't need exact date
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2014-09-01T11:20:09Z taylanub: "Richard Stallman began work on GNU Emacs in 1984 to produce a free software alternative to the proprietary Gosling Emacs. GNU Emacs was initially based on Gosling Emacs, but Stallman's replacement of its Mocklisp interpreter with a true Lisp interpreter required that nearly all of its code be rewritten."
2014-09-01T11:20:12Z DGASAU: It looks like EmacsLisp dates to 1984 (irony).
2014-09-01T11:20:27Z taylanub: same year as CL in that case
2014-09-01T11:20:55Z DGASAU: Except it may be heavily influenced by previous work.
2014-09-01T11:25:59Z b_jonas: ok
2014-09-01T11:26:16Z b_jonas: so near 1984
2014-09-01T11:26:31Z b_jonas: that makes sense
2014-09-01T11:28:36Z DGASAU: It may be heavily influenced by the code from 1978-81, dynamic scoping wasn't considered that bad at the time.
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2014-09-01T11:36:57Z b_jonas: sure, and the hardware limits at that time of course
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2014-09-01T11:44:36Z civodul: i think it was already unfortunate to do without lexical scoping back then
2014-09-01T11:45:03Z DGASAU: No, the consequences were not understood that well back then.
2014-09-01T11:45:16Z DGASAU: At least, that's my opinion on the issue.
2014-09-01T11:46:14Z DGASAU: In fact, a lot of people outside of Lisp world don't understand consequences of dynamic scoping well even today.
2014-09-01T11:46:46Z ijp: neither do most people in the lisp world
2014-09-01T11:47:33Z DGASAU: May be, but I'd say that this is dubious.
2014-09-01T11:50:23Z ijp: this is my experience dealing with people on #emacs
2014-09-01T11:51:29Z DGASAU: Those may be occasional Lisp users.
2014-09-01T11:52:03Z ijp: your criterion was quantity, not quality
2014-09-01T11:53:05Z civodul: :-)
2014-09-01T11:53:26Z DGASAU: I count frequent language users for that.
2014-09-01T11:53:47Z civodul: i heard a senior CL hacker suggest that dynamic scoping was already considered a bad choice back then
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2014-09-01T11:53:55Z civodul: then again, it's easy to say that from today
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2014-09-01T11:54:38Z DGASAU: E.g. I know that a lot of professional C and C++ programmers don't understand problems with CPP that arise from its textual substitution nature.
2014-09-01T11:55:16Z ijp: at any rate, I'm not convinced most dynamic language users understand the consequences of lexical scoping either
2014-09-01T11:55:17Z DGASAU: I had to explain some things why one has to mangle symbols in macros because of scoping nature in C++.
2014-09-01T11:56:12Z DGASAU: ijp: That's why I limited my assertion to Lisp rather than "dynamic languages". :)
2014-09-01T11:56:15Z ijp: local variables and eval being one obvious case example
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2014-09-01T19:25:13Z amgarchIn9: Hi! Are these valid Scheme symbols? I seem to be able to "read" them all: "%VERSION VERSION_STAMP = V0001.000 DATE = 03/27/08 08:47:01" and here too: "%FORMAT(5E16.8)"
2014-09-01T19:25:42Z antoszka: yes
2014-09-01T19:25:57Z amgarchIn9: these, in particular 03/27/08 08:47:01 5E16.8
2014-09-01T19:26:34Z amgarchIn9: 03/07 is a fraction, why 03/07/08 is a symbol then?
2014-09-01T19:26:53Z antoszka: basically anything can be a symbol if you symbol-quote it properly
2014-09-01T19:27:14Z antoszka: 1 ]=> '|03/07/08|
2014-09-01T19:27:14Z antoszka: ;Value: 03/07/08
2014-09-01T19:27:54Z amgarchIn9: and if you dont quote? I've shown the lines as is.
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2014-09-01T19:34:33Z antoszka: then the reader tries doing its job on things like 03/27…, I'm more of a CL guy, so I'm not sure about the exact details of the Scheme reader
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2014-09-01T19:42:59Z ijp: amgarchIn9: in some schemes the heuristic is if it's not a number or a special delimiter, it's a symbol
2014-09-01T19:43:17Z ijp: as far as the standard is concerned 03/07/08 is not a symbol
2014-09-01T19:43:35Z ijp: nor 08:47:01
2014-09-01T19:44:02Z ijp: I think the last one shold be parsed as a symbol, and a list with one number in it
2014-09-01T19:44:57Z ijp: and of course, read returns sexps, not symbols
2014-09-01T19:46:55Z ijp: rudybot: (call-with-input-string "%VERSION VERSION_STAMP = V0001.000 DATE = 03/27/08 08:47:01 %FORMAT(5E16.8)" port->list)
2014-09-01T19:46:55Z rudybot: ijp: your sandbox is ready
2014-09-01T19:46:55Z rudybot: ijp: error: port->list: contract violation <NEWLINE>   expected: (procedure-arity-includes/c 1) <NEWLINE>   given: #<input-port:string>
2014-09-01T19:47:57Z taylanub prefers good ole "wrong type argument" over "contract violation" :P
2014-09-01T19:48:11Z ijp: rudybot: (call-with-input-string "%VERSION VERSION_STAMP = V0001.000 DATE = 03/27/08 08:47:01 %FORMAT(5E16.8)" (lambda (x) (port->list read x)))
2014-09-01T19:48:11Z rudybot: ijp: ; Value: '(%VERSION VERSION_STAMP = V0001.000 DATE = 03/27/08 08:47:01 %FORMAT (5E16.8))
2014-09-01T19:48:27Z ijp: rudybot: (map symbol? (call-with-input-string "%VERSION VERSION_STAMP = V0001.000 DATE = 03/27/08 08:47:01 %FORMAT(5E16.8)" (lambda (x) (port->list read x))))
2014-09-01T19:48:27Z rudybot: ijp: ; Value: '(#t #t #t #t #t #t #t #t #t #f)
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2014-09-01T19:49:08Z ijp: rudybot: (define a (call-with-input-string "(5E16.8)" read))
2014-09-01T19:49:09Z rudybot: ijp: Done.
2014-09-01T19:49:15Z ijp: rudybot: (symbol? (car a))
2014-09-01T19:49:15Z rudybot: ijp: ; Value: #t
2014-09-01T19:49:27Z ijp: hmm, why isn't it a number
2014-09-01T19:49:50Z ijp: rudybot: (number? 1e6)
2014-09-01T19:49:51Z rudybot: ijp: ; Value: #t
2014-09-01T19:49:53Z ijp: rudybot: (number? 1E6)
2014-09-01T19:49:54Z rudybot: ijp: ; Value: #t
2014-09-01T19:50:05Z ijp: must be the decimal point
2014-09-01T19:50:07Z ijp: rudybot: (number? 1E6.3)
2014-09-01T19:50:07Z rudybot: ijp: error: 1E6.3: undefined; <NEWLINE>  cannot reference an identifier before its definition <NEWLINE>   in module: 'program
2014-09-01T19:50:19Z ijp: right, that's the reason
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2014-09-01T19:57:41Z amgarchIn9: port->list is new to me
2014-09-01T19:57:54Z amgarchIn9: thanks for clarification!
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2014-09-02T07:17:13Z zacts: hi
2014-09-02T07:17:26Z zacts: I wonder if there is a wiki where I can post my vim config for scheme.
2014-09-02T07:17:43Z zacts: I got vim to indent exactly like emacs for scheme with pure VimL
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2014-09-02T13:17:02Z kressara: Hey guys.
2014-09-02T13:17:02Z kressara: How does the compiler detect (define foo (lambda (a) (foo (+ a 1)))) will use tail-call optimization?
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2014-09-02T13:17:12Z kressara: Like, other languages require [[int foo(a) { a++; foo(a) }]] and [[int foo(a) {foo(a + 1);}]] isn't guaranteed to TCO.
2014-09-02T13:17:25Z kressara: I mean
2014-09-02T13:17:33Z kressara: return foo(a)
2014-09-02T13:19:25Z kressara: Oh wait, I think it does TCO. Sorry, I derped there.
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2014-09-02T18:44:08Z Cheery: I  think I'd need bit bigger advice today.
2014-09-02T18:45:08Z Cheery: just finished writing cheney GC into my language. it came out rather clumsy.
2014-09-02T18:45:56Z Cheery: whenever a closure slot is copied from stack into heap at the first time, it's memory consumption doubles.
2014-09-02T18:46:11Z Cheery: it gets a to-pointer and a size
2014-09-02T18:46:39Z Cheery: but I don't need GC advice.
2014-09-02T18:46:51Z Cheery: or at least I don't ask that :)
2014-09-02T18:47:34Z Cheery: just wondering if you had advice on how would I make a good lisp implementation
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2014-09-02T18:59:01Z Cheery: well. getting sleep. maybe I get it solved during night
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2014-09-02T21:48:53Z _tca: hey davexunit o/
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2014-09-02T21:50:05Z davexunit: hey _tca
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2014-09-03T22:21:28Z kyfho: heh
2014-09-03T22:21:37Z kyfho: scheme
2014-09-03T22:21:44Z kyfho: can it do the job?
2014-09-03T22:21:47Z kyfho: I dontknow
2014-09-03T22:22:03Z kyfho: does java n php just have enuf thrust under thier pigfeet?
2014-09-03T22:22:59Z ijp: hello gavino
2014-09-03T22:26:29Z kyfho: I am not gavino
2014-09-03T22:26:34Z kyfho: who are you?
2014-09-03T22:27:06Z kyfho: lets talk about scheme for website making
2014-09-03T22:27:08Z kyfho: :)
2014-09-03T22:27:18Z kyfho: continue of racket seems interesting
2014-09-03T22:27:21Z kyfho: :)
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2014-09-03T23:04:23Z kyfho: ijp what are you working on lately?
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2014-09-04T00:45:22Z Lowfyr: I want to work my way through "The Little Schemer" which is the first time I come in contact with lisp, and I already got a question in the first chapter:
2014-09-04T00:45:57Z Lowfyr: It is said that (quote xyz) and 'xyz can both be used
2014-09-04T00:46:52Z Lowfyr: however if I try it on (atom? (quote xyz) or (atom? '(xyz)), I get different results
2014-09-04T00:48:35Z c74d: Lowfyr: wouldn’t '(xyz) be equivalent to (quote (xyz)), not to (quote xyz)?
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2014-09-04T00:52:16Z Lowfyr: Oh yeah my fault, typo
2014-09-04T00:54:59Z kyfho: ouch
2014-09-04T00:55:03Z kyfho: you may never recover
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2014-09-04T00:59:15Z Lowfyr: Silly me ^^ Sorry to bother
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2014-09-04T05:06:49Z kyfho: scheme for web!
2014-09-04T05:06:52Z kyfho: ah the fun
2014-09-04T05:07:07Z kyfho: intereesting guile geting some webstuf
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2014-09-04T07:57:20Z civodul: howdy
2014-09-04T07:57:22Z civodul: anyone knows where to find the proceedings of past Scheme workshops?
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2014-09-04T08:34:12Z lars__: Can anyone answer a noob question for me?
2014-09-04T08:34:53Z lars__: (if (and (> b a) (< b (* a b)))
2014-09-04T08:35:14Z lars__: Im trying to understand how the structure of scheme works I guess
2014-09-04T08:35:47Z lars__: Does that mean if b < (a*b) and b > a
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2014-09-04T08:38:46Z alezost: lars__: yes, but you need some body after condition
2014-09-04T08:39:21Z alezost: lars__: also if (> b a) is false, then (< b (* a b)) is not evaluated
2014-09-04T08:39:43Z lars__: alezost, I just started this scheme course, so basically were just learning the structure of it kind of
2014-09-04T08:42:46Z alezost: lars__: you may experiment with a scheme REPL to learn these structures
2014-09-04T08:43:24Z lars__: Whats REPL?
2014-09-04T08:43:30Z lars__: I downloaded DrRacket
2014-09-04T08:43:32Z lars__: So thats what I got
2014-09-04T08:50:15Z lars__: http://repl.it/languages/Scheme ?
2014-09-04T08:50:37Z lars__: Anyways, nice that you have a irc channel gonna become a regular here for sure
2014-09-04T08:54:52Z alezost: lars__: REPL means "Read Eval Print Loop".  It's like a shell: you write something there and get some output.
2014-09-04T08:55:22Z lars__: Cool
2014-09-04T08:55:26Z alezost: lars__: I think Racket has its own REPL.
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2014-09-04T08:55:39Z lars__: Right now i just go into racket and type
2014-09-04T08:55:41Z lars__: #lang racket
2014-09-04T08:55:44Z lars__: and then what I want to do
2014-09-04T08:55:45Z lars__: And then run
2014-09-04T08:57:41Z alezost: lars__: I actually never tried Racket, but you can probably eval there things like: (if (> 8 3) 'yes 'no)
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2014-09-04T09:02:30Z lars__: alezost, Hmm... Ill be back in a bit. Thanks for the suggestions
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2014-09-04T15:16:17Z stamourv: civodul: AFAIR, some really old ones are on ReadScheme.
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2014-09-04T15:16:27Z stamourv: civodul: Looking for anything in particular?
2014-09-04T15:16:45Z stamourv has a physical copies for a handful of years.
2014-09-04T15:17:10Z stamourv: And there's probably more somewhere in the lab.
2014-09-04T15:17:40Z stamourv: civodul: Also, authors tend to put their papers on their website.
2014-09-04T15:22:11Z civodul: stamourv: not anything specific, i just wanted to browse them
2014-09-04T15:23:08Z civodul: actually i see now that some of the programs link to PDFs
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2014-09-04T16:10:32Z lars__: (= a b) < What does this mean? And also does anyone have a good beginner document for scheme?
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2014-09-04T16:11:36Z cite-reader: lars__: That compares a and b for numeric equality.
2014-09-04T16:11:49Z lars__: What does numeric equality?
2014-09-04T16:11:52Z lars__: *mean
2014-09-04T16:12:13Z lars__: You mean if 1 and 1 is the same number?
2014-09-04T16:12:16Z lars__: And it gives a yes/no answer
2014-09-04T16:12:27Z cite-reader: That's essentially right.
2014-09-04T16:12:49Z taylanub: lars__: basically just "equals" as in arithmetic
2014-09-04T16:12:52Z cite-reader: And if either argument isn't a number, it's an error. So (= 1 'this-is-a-symbol) is an error.
2014-09-04T16:14:13Z cite-reader: As to the other half of your question... I don't know. I find the RnRS fairly readable, but I'm not most people.
2014-09-04T16:14:41Z taylanub: lars__: for example, 1 and 1.0 are two different objects in Scheme; the former is an "exact integer", the latter is an "inexact rational", which matters when using them in computations, so for example (eqv? 1 1.0) will return false, although (= 1 1.0) is true
2014-09-04T16:15:08Z lars__: I see
2014-09-04T16:15:29Z lars__: I study math usually but now im taking this computer science course so im learning scheme
2014-09-04T16:16:07Z lars__: Do you guys have any tips on a good manual or like a list of all common functions or whatever?
2014-09-04T16:16:14Z lars__: For a complete newbie
2014-09-04T16:16:34Z ARM9: http://mitpress.mit.edu/sicp/sicp.html this is popular
2014-09-04T16:16:44Z lars__: Hah.
2014-09-04T16:16:48Z lars__: Thats the one I got
2014-09-04T16:16:57Z taylanub: Scheme is notorious for allowing exact mathematical operations.  for example multiplying the exact rational number 1/2 with the exact integer 2 will yield the exact integer 1.  but if you multiply the inexact number 0.5 with 2 you will get an inexact result that's approximately 1.  (it will use "floating point" numbers, which computers can deal with much much faster, but are fundamentally limited
2014-09-04T16:16:57Z taylanub: to inexact results)
2014-09-04T16:17:16Z lars__: ARM9, It just felt hefty, I cant really find stuff
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2014-09-04T16:17:26Z lars__: Like, right now im supposed to find out a bit about the command "cond"
2014-09-04T16:17:27Z ARM9: it's not a reference manual
2014-09-04T16:17:30Z lars__: But cant really find it in that book
2014-09-04T16:17:49Z taylanub: (note that it will be a very close approximation such that for many purposes it will be "exact enough" anyway.  floating point numbers have a lot of precision, just not absolute/mathematical accuracy)
2014-09-04T16:18:01Z ARM9: just plow through the book, it's a good read in general if you want to get into programming
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2014-09-04T16:18:25Z lars__: ARM9 : I usually learn by doing
2014-09-04T16:18:31Z lars__: E specially with this programming stuff
2014-09-04T16:18:39Z lars__: taylanub, Yeah, I noticed that
2014-09-04T16:18:51Z lars__: I study math usually so im used to results with integers
2014-09-04T16:19:25Z lars__: What does floating point numbers mean? And why are they faster?
2014-09-04T16:20:19Z ARM9: I assume he meant that floats are faster than the rational representation
2014-09-04T16:20:32Z lars__: Why is that?
2014-09-04T16:20:34Z ARM9: float vs integer performance depends a lot on the circumstances
2014-09-04T16:20:54Z ARM9: because a computer doesn't operate on symbols
2014-09-04T16:21:43Z lars__: How do you mean
2014-09-04T16:21:45Z cite-reader: Small integers are usually faster than floats, but floats in turn are faster than rationals. It's a hardware implementation thing.
2014-09-04T16:22:19Z ARM9: a computer cannot quantify the expression 1/2 without having to interpret the symbols which is generally expensive
2014-09-04T16:22:52Z taylanub: lars__: it's simply difficult to represent rational numbers in hardware efficiently; it's a fundamental limitation of computers so far
2014-09-04T16:23:06Z ARM9: a float is just a data type generally represented by a sign bit, an exponent and a mantissa
2014-09-04T16:23:10Z taylanub: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Floating_point
2014-09-04T16:23:42Z ARM9: the exponent and mantissa size vary in number of bits between implementations, but there are standards so you don't really have to worry about that
2014-09-04T16:24:07Z lars__: I see, so basically you cant calculate rational numbers in a computer and have to use decimals
2014-09-04T16:24:17Z lars__: And cut off them at a certainpoint so they dont go to infinity
2014-09-04T16:24:18Z lars__: Or something
2014-09-04T16:24:19Z lars__: ?
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2014-09-04T16:25:03Z ARM9: you know how you can't represent 1/3 without a repeating fraction?
2014-09-04T16:25:13Z cite-reader: You *can* represent rationals, sort of, with clever encoding tricks. You just take a big performance hit. That's sometimes okay.
2014-09-04T16:25:29Z slowslow: There was that unfinished book which was quite good. Firgot the title.
2014-09-04T16:25:30Z lars__: 0.33 ?
2014-09-04T16:25:47Z lars__: Not sure
2014-09-04T16:25:48Z ARM9: yeah you have to round it, and you lose precision, this is generally what happens to floats
2014-09-04T16:26:01Z ARM9: because you can only have so much precision with a finite number of bits
2014-09-04T16:26:14Z lars__: So I figured
2014-09-04T16:26:19Z lars__: Basically it would take alot of power
2014-09-04T16:26:23Z lars__: If it would continute to infinity
2014-09-04T16:26:27Z lars__: And then being multiplied
2014-09-04T16:26:33Z ARM9: and a lot of space
2014-09-04T16:27:02Z lars__: So how do you convert them?
2014-09-04T16:27:09Z lars__: If you want to do a true/false thing
2014-09-04T16:27:11Z lars__: With a mixed number
2014-09-04T16:27:40Z ARM9: a lot of languages (implementations) do that automagically for you so you don't have to worry about all the nasty low level stuff
2014-09-04T16:27:59Z lars__: I see
2014-09-04T16:28:08Z ARM9: (= 3.0 3)
2014-09-04T16:28:12Z lars__: Well, whole point of this course is to learn all this nasty low level stuff I think
2014-09-04T16:28:15Z ARM9: that should return t (true)
2014-09-04T16:28:22Z lars__: OH
2014-09-04T16:28:25Z lars__: So thats what #t means
2014-09-04T16:28:28Z lars__: and #f
2014-09-04T16:28:40Z lars__: I was like "wtf is this shit, some kind of color code?"
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2014-09-04T16:29:05Z taylanub: heh
2014-09-04T16:29:11Z ARM9: but beware, because of the previously mentioned floating point precision loss, you should not be comparing floating points by equality, instead you generally want to use ranges
2014-09-04T16:29:17Z taylanub: the latest standard allows #true and #false, hopefully they'll gain wider acceptance
2014-09-04T16:29:57Z slowslow: "An introduction to Scheme and its implementation" it is called.
2014-09-04T16:30:00Z lars__: ARM9 : That will probably be relevant in the future, right now Im stuck at very basic stuff
2014-09-04T16:30:32Z lars__: I got Structure and Interpretation of Computer Programs
2014-09-04T16:30:53Z lars__: I kinda want some kind of code sheet or something, I got one from my school but I cant find much in it
2014-09-04T16:31:10Z ARM9: some lisps use nil for false
2014-09-04T16:31:17Z slowslow: Well, SICP is a weird book.
2014-09-04T16:32:23Z ARM9: lars__ what implementation are you using, racket?
2014-09-04T16:32:37Z lars__: Yes
2014-09-04T16:32:40Z ARM9: http://docs.racket-lang.org/
2014-09-04T16:32:43Z ARM9: try the official documentation
2014-09-04T16:32:49Z lars__: Yeah, found that one
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2014-09-04T16:33:27Z lars__: Ill stick with that then
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2014-09-04T19:51:47Z dmiles: if someone implemtned just the functuions in Appendix A.. (http://www.r6rs.org/final/html/r6rs/r6rs-Z-H-15.html#node_chap_A ) good a set of scheme libraries be found that would convert their imkpl into something very usab le by otehrs?
2014-09-04T19:52:09Z dmiles: "good a set"/"could a set"
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2014-09-04T19:55:16Z dmiles: and if this is even possible..  what would be the best set of .scm files to surround i with to make it useable?
2014-09-04T19:55:53Z dmiles:  to surround *it* with to make it useable?
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2014-09-04T20:21:40Z vanila: does anyone have pointers on how to directly implement shift/reset delimited continuations in a compiler?
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2014-09-04T20:30:31Z asumu: vanila: there's a paper on this, lemme find it...
2014-09-04T20:30:57Z asumu: vanila: http://dl.acm.org/citation.cfm?id=581504 http://ondoc.logand.com/d/4056/pdf
2014-09-04T20:32:05Z vanila: thank you asumu
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2014-09-04T20:52:01Z dmiles: where can i find a definition of the minial set of operations needed to bootstrap the libraries that come with PLT-Sceme ?
2014-09-04T20:52:51Z taylanub: not sure if there is such a thing but try #racket too
2014-09-04T20:53:13Z taylanub: (PLT Scheme has changed its name to Racket a couple years ago and that's their IRC channel)
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2014-09-04T20:55:51Z dmiles: mainly my goal will be to be able to run some software like miniKanren and  alphaLeanTAP and part of Isebella .. so to be stardard enough to be able to do such tasks .. i am assumiong many ty sceme interps wornt work right?
2014-09-04T20:56:16Z vanila: dmiles, minikanren only requires a very small amount of R5RS
2014-09-04T20:56:32Z vanila: PLT is gigantic compared to that
2014-09-04T20:56:51Z dmiles: ah.. .. its sort of the differnces between swi and gnuprolog
2014-09-04T20:57:18Z dmiles: but many things can still run on gnuprolog :)
2014-09-04T20:58:48Z ijp: vanila: it uses some technically non-standard identifiers
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2014-09-04T20:59:21Z dmiles: i am actualyl trying to write a scheme  intepreter .. powerfull enough to run "bbn_cl"
2014-09-04T21:00:44Z ijp: like +o and -o
2014-09-04T21:01:02Z vanila: dmiles, it shouldn't be too hard to bootstrap a scheme interpreter and then gradually add enough extra features to run the libraries!
2014-09-04T21:01:18Z vanila: ijp, oh are they really nonstandard? I though scheme didn't care what you call things
2014-09-04T21:01:29Z ijp: of course it does
2014-09-04T21:01:37Z ijp: you can't just do (define 5 3)
2014-09-04T21:02:15Z ijp: (at this point, I can't remember if it is true or if I made it up, but I'm relatively sure I have seen a scheme that accepted that)
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2014-09-04T21:03:03Z dmiles: i am statign otu with .. https://github.com/zick/ImplOfR6RSAppA/blob/master/r6rs-sem.swi
2014-09-04T21:03:04Z ijp: in any case + is special cased in the <identifier> grammar as a <peculiar identifier>
2014-09-04T21:03:24Z ijp: but + is not considered a valid identifier initial otherwise
2014-09-04T21:03:31Z ijp: s/initial/prefix/
2014-09-04T21:04:05Z dmiles: its the "Implementation of R6RS Appendix A"
2014-09-04T21:04:56Z dmiles: but .. i was hoping that means i could drop a library on top of it almsot from the getgo
2014-09-04T21:06:29Z dmiles: at work someone is writing a version of prolog for one of our products.. and that i write prolog for... but he is in for much pain if he xver expects me to downport my code for it
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2014-09-04T21:06:56Z dmiles: so i hope i am not goign to be "that guy"
2014-09-04T21:07:03Z asumu: dmiles: why not just use Racket? Trying to re-implement its features will be quite hard.
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2014-09-04T21:07:47Z dmiles: it has to run on thi9s special version of prolog
2014-09-04T21:08:22Z asumu: Can you maybe just bridge Racket and this language instead?
2014-09-04T21:09:01Z dmiles: hrrm yes esialy
2014-09-04T21:09:23Z asumu: That sounds like a more promising approach than trying to re-implement it. That would call for duplicating hundreds of person-years of work.
2014-09-04T21:09:23Z dmiles: easilty
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2014-09-04T21:09:51Z dmiles: its just both runtimes have to hold 8million kif assertions
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2014-09-04T21:10:31Z dmiles: sicne we can afford to marshal them back and forth .. unless i create a ffi datatype that is indentical to botyh runtimes
2014-09-04T21:10:54Z dmiles: (which is what i did for a coumple interfaces)
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2014-09-04T21:13:06Z dmiles: creating an effectient interface.. we had to take out the allrgo runtime since to marshal was too slow and memory lbolth.. what i have in 2GB . alegro took 18
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2014-09-04T21:14:26Z dmiles: so sercretly i am laughing that if we host what was simpliar to allegro code in swi-prolog we use 8 times less mmemory.. and so far runs 700 times faster
2014-09-04T21:15:03Z Fare: you're trying to reuse libraries written in swi-prolog ?
2014-09-04T21:15:17Z dmiles: yes .. very very many
2014-09-04T21:15:46Z dmiles: i've been writting 100 lines approx a day for 10 + years ...
2014-09-04T21:15:57Z Fare: if it's a lot of libraries by many people, they probably exercise a lot of dark corners of the language... either porting or reimplementing will be hard.
2014-09-04T21:16:11Z Fare: oh, if it's only by you, then it's much easier
2014-09-04T21:16:12Z dmiles: indeed.. i am so intertwined in SWI
2014-09-04T21:16:36Z Fare: because at least you can tell what it's all about, and you probably use only parts of the language that you understand
2014-09-04T21:16:49Z dmiles: i made scafolding fro running on other prologs pleanty of times though
2014-09-04T21:17:15Z Fare: ok, so porting to miniKanren or some other prolog-in-scheme makes sense.
2014-09-04T21:17:46Z dmiles: some of it yes.. but there is code that is beign added to swi right now that we want.. but cant say we have to have it
2014-09-04T21:18:23Z dmiles: but then there is all of its sparql server libraries i'd write a smoothing lqayer for to run in sncheme
2014-09-04T21:18:28Z dmiles: (if i was stuck doing that)
2014-09-04T21:19:43Z dmiles: its be easier to write a prollgo interp that to port all my code .. lol
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2014-09-04T21:20:22Z dmiles: its be easier to write a prolog interp that to port all my code .. lol .. or of course write the porting tool
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2014-09-04T21:21:52Z ijp: stis has done quite a bit of work trying to get guile to run prolog code as-is
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2014-09-04T21:22:58Z dmiles: i was relaly hoping i could drop a something elses impl of the scheme /.scm files roguth the r6rs semantics written for swi prolog
2014-09-04T21:23:59Z dmiles: hrrm .. actually there is a couple pl2wam impls it woulnt take but a few minutes for them to drop in
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2014-09-04T21:25:00Z dmiles: it translates .pl code (even has a ISO reader) to stack based languages and such
2014-09-04T21:25:12Z vanila: wam would be a good way to do it i think
2014-09-04T21:25:20Z dmiles: it / i mean one version of the pl2am
2014-09-04T21:25:21Z vanila: just a quick wam interpreter in scheme
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2014-09-04T21:26:26Z dmiles: Fare sort of struct the heart of the difficulty.. i know i could accomplish portign the code to porlog-on-scheme
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2014-09-04T21:26:57Z dmiles: and probably what i am the most qualified to do
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2014-09-04T21:27:36Z dmiles: i guess i have to write a couple benchmarks and be sold on it
2014-09-04T21:27:54Z dmiles: be sold on given up the current plaform
2014-09-04T21:30:16Z dmiles: really its that we are adopting prottentually some scheme code (miniKanren etc) and when i ported our lisp RDF server to a prolog rdf server i new use 14 less GB
2014-09-04T21:31:04Z dmiles: "i new use"  / "we now use 14gb less ram"
2014-09-04T21:33:27Z dmiles: [not trying to incite a language riot .. it is a weird experince.. but it not a problem with Allegro.. the  Java version of researchcyc/LarKC uses 28GB ram]
2014-09-04T21:35:15Z dmiles: the McCarthy version only uses 4GB ram.. probably in running about the same if porlog ever built up the caches properly)
2014-09-04T21:36:23Z dmiles: (teh mcarthy version is created by translating subL version to C)
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2014-09-05T11:13:04Z vanila: hi
2014-09-05T11:13:21Z vanila: is anyone familiar with marc feeleys scheme to c in 90 mins?
2014-09-05T11:13:29Z vanila: I don't understand how call/cc is implemented
2014-09-05T11:13:58Z vanila: I see that it just inserts a definition after performing CPS
2014-09-05T11:14:11Z vanila: but the definition is not in CPS form, so isn't this a problem?
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2014-09-05T12:08:01Z slowslow: vanila: I'd say, it actually is in cps (I'm looking at slide 30 of some 35-slide pdf).
2014-09-05T12:09:12Z slowslow: Called 90-min-scc.pdf.
2014-09-05T12:10:31Z slowslow: There, call/cc is defined as 2-parameter function, one of them being a continuation, but in your code, you use it as 1-parameter function. Seems legit.
2014-09-05T12:21:51Z slowslow: So, after you cps-convert a some code with calls to call/cc in it, you should be fine.
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2014-09-05T12:27:29Z vanila: slowslow, oh damn you're totally right
2014-09-05T12:28:16Z vanila: that's really strange
2014-09-05T12:28:29Z vanila: the thing is im looking at implementing shift/reset (directly rather than in terms of calcc)
2014-09-05T12:28:45Z vanila: and it seems like they don't have a CPS form
2014-09-05T12:28:56Z vanila: bu maybe they do
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2014-09-05T12:34:39Z slowslow: Maybe, those things are meant to be cps-converted by the compiler?
2014-09-05T12:35:36Z vanila: ill see if i can modify his compiler, putting the defs for shift/reseet along with his callcc
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2014-09-05T12:37:24Z vanila: it doesn't seem tow ork as-is though
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2014-09-05T12:37:50Z vanila: there's a lot of weird extra brackets in the C it ouputs
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2014-09-05T12:41:29Z slowslow: (My last phrase does not seem to make much sense. Please, disregard it.)
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2014-09-05T12:44:19Z vanila: http://lpaste.net/110549
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2014-09-05T12:44:25Z vanila: this is the compiler output :/
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2014-09-05T12:44:35Z vanila: even if i delete some brackets it doesn't build
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2014-09-05T12:46:03Z slowslow: As for shift, I don't think it is a function by nature, as it sort of selects a block of syntax. I'd rather expect it to be a macro operating on cps-converted code.
2014-09-05T12:47:20Z slowslow: Uh, I mean, reset, not shift.
2014-09-05T12:47:35Z vanila: thats true i think i saw (shift c m) as a macro for (shift* (lambda (c) m)) somewhere
2014-09-05T12:48:08Z vanila: yeah and (reset m) for (reset* (lambda () m)) maybe im not sure
2014-09-05T12:48:19Z vanila: probably
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2014-09-05T12:52:27Z vanila: I fixed the extra brackets in the compiler
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2014-09-05T12:52:35Z vanila: but when i compile its output with gcc it gives loads of warnings and fials
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2014-09-05T13:08:02Z slowslow: So, what exactly are you trying to do to implement shift/reset?
2014-09-05T13:11:27Z vanila: slowslow, right now im trying to add it to this compiler in the same was it has callcc
2014-09-05T13:11:43Z vanila: i am interested in other ways to implement it too though, I don't really know how it should be implemented
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2014-09-05T13:20:21Z slowslow: I also don't know, how it should. What I can think of, is that inside reset there's actually two type of continuations you're working with. The full one (as for call/cc), and a partial one for shift. Also, the full one is made of partial one plus some continuation. In other words, the partial one is the full one eith some additional return point. So what I'd try to do - is to make reset insert (a valid scheme counterpart of) some conditional rent
2014-09-05T13:20:39Z slowslow: Does this make sense?
2014-09-05T13:22:58Z slowslow: Probably some dynamic environment fiddling needs to be added, as for a call to shift, it is not statically known which reset it corresponds to.
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2014-09-05T13:25:24Z slowslow: It also seems to me that shift/reset are better off implemented as some macros+functions on top of call/cc and dynamic variables.
2014-09-05T13:25:46Z taylanub: you don't want to implement shift/reset in terms of call/cc.  the other way around is better
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2014-09-05T13:27:43Z slowslow: The other way around meaning without a global vps conversion?
2014-09-05T13:28:03Z slowslow: s/vps/cps/
2014-09-05T13:28:53Z taylanub: I don't know the details really, I don't know how to implement either, just that you generally want partial continuations as the primitive because they're (counter-intuitively) the more fundamental concept
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2014-09-05T13:29:15Z taylanub: well "more fundamental" is always vague and arguable, but it's more useful to have them as primitive
2014-09-05T13:29:19Z taylanub: primitives*
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2014-09-05T13:45:15Z slowslow: What I was thinking of is that IF you choose to perform a cps-transformation of everything (and there are some independent arguments for that, apparently, that book by A Appel and some papers), then you get call/cc for free, and you might want to also try to implement shift/reset with that.
2014-09-05T13:46:34Z taylanub: the implementation would be rather similar I guess
2014-09-05T13:46:43Z vanila: I just realized that CPS only works for call/cc
2014-09-05T13:46:50Z vanila: it doesn't work for shift
2014-09-05T13:47:31Z vanila: the continuation semantics for (call/cc E) is (lambda (k) [E] (lambda (f) (f (lambda (v k) (k v) k)))
2014-09-05T13:47:35Z vanila: which is in tail form
2014-09-05T13:48:40Z vanila: but for (shift c M) it's (lambda (k) [M]{replace c in that with (lambda (v kk) (kk (k v)))}) (lambda (v) v)
2014-09-05T13:48:51Z vanila: and this part (kk (k v)) is not in tail form
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2014-09-05T14:23:20Z asumu: vanila: yes, you need an "extended CPS" for shift/reset. See http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/download;jsessionid=F3E25F347F7CFA447710B1C502F96EC7?doi=10.1.1.43.8753&rep=rep1&type=pdf for an early paper that explains that in detail.
2014-09-05T14:23:21Z rudybot: http://tinyurl.com/mvd6fyz
2014-09-05T14:25:15Z vanila: thanks again asumu!
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2014-09-05T14:40:49Z vanila: ECPS looks like twice-CPS, which creates too many lambdas I think?
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2014-09-05T17:47:18Z slowslow: vanila: seems like n-times cps to me. Maybe, n corresponds to how many nested resets enclose current lambda.
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2014-09-05T17:47:43Z slowslow: Seems like lots of fun. For some definition of fun.
2014-09-05T17:47:51Z vanila: haha
2014-09-05T17:48:18Z vanila: it's really difficult! I can see why people would prefer call/cc over shift/reset now
2014-09-05T17:49:07Z slowslow: But I think there was an implementation of shift/reset in terms od call/cc.
2014-09-05T17:49:15Z slowslow: Not sure.
2014-09-05T17:49:39Z vanila: there is one, I've seen then when looking up about this - it's just that I want a direct implementation so it's more efficient
2014-09-05T17:51:20Z ijp: I don't know why you would need t-times cps
2014-09-05T17:51:22Z ijp: n*
2014-09-05T17:52:40Z slowslow: You mean, that'd be a constant instead?
2014-09-05T17:53:01Z ijp: the original papers had continuations and meta-continuations, and I don't think a tagged shift/reset would require more
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2014-09-05T17:53:44Z ijp: maybe an extra argument for a continuation environment
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2014-09-05T17:55:03Z slowslow: Yeah, probably I was wrong.
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2014-09-05T17:56:20Z slowslow: But in yerms of efficiency, one thing that scheme-to-c compiler seems to try to avoid is direct stack manipulation. Seems like an important constraint.
2014-09-05T17:56:54Z slowslow: I mean, an efficient shift/reset might assume that you directly alter stack.
2014-09-05T17:59:23Z slowslow: And then if you have this scheme-to-c design decision, the best thing to do might be different.
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2014-09-05T19:51:15Z 
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2014-09-05T19:51:15Z names: zarul abbe effy C_Keen fgudin offby1 ivanshmakov fizzie emma averell Khisanth tstc` bjz gluegadget sethalves aap_ yacks cdidd Intensity cataska nisstyre mornfall defanor clog girrig cross fikusz_ DerGuteMoritz waxysubs` ggherdov jkraemer eli xian Kabaka vukcrni fadein Neet githogori aksatac_ Nshag _tca greghendershott LeoNerd teiresias amoe_ ozzloy pchrist Blkt_ ByronJohnson SirDayBat ubii _5kg pjb carc cmatei tessier GGMethos omefire1 karswell
2014-09-05T19:51:15Z names: turbofail joneshf stamourv joast tadni mario-goulart rainbyte cky ELLIOTTCABLE gabot yosafbridge ohama jrslepak ineiros_ pyro- micro_ ski haroldwu blz37 z0d Kryo felipe dpk Okasu m4burns eMBee alpha- dca Natch Saeren twem2_ gnomon Soft es_ ft nitrix pygospa duncanm aoh finnrobi certainty gf3 acieroid mrowe_away ctindall dan64- copec diginet niklasl lusory eagleflo poucet_ edw ivan\ Cheery Guest25224 kbtr juanfra evhan byte48 cjh`_ antoszka kilimanjaro
2014-09-05T19:51:15Z names: shardz FracV akkad rudybot choas arbscht tsuyoshi dytrivedi superjudge__ sung_ kwmiebach_____ zbigniew asumu SHODAN renopt samth arrubin ecraven zz_jrhorn424 zacts Kruppe akp
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2014-09-06T04:32:16Z burger-king: in a large scheme program does the scheme image if u will act as a kinda of database?
2014-09-06T04:32:35Z burger-king: can you then save updates to this blob every minute and achieve a kind of durible data store?
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2014-09-06T04:34:34Z offby1: nope
2014-09-06T04:34:36Z offby1: next question
2014-09-06T04:34:47Z offby1: you're thinking of ... I dunno, Smalltalk, or maybe older Lisps
2014-09-06T04:35:07Z offby1: scheme is much more like perl, python, ruby in that regard
2014-09-06T04:35:37Z offby1: in all those languages, if you want persistence, you gotta arrange for it yourself, explicitly
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2014-09-06T04:35:58Z burger-king: bugger
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2014-09-06T04:36:11Z burger-king: so I wwhat end up using scheme and postgresql?
2014-09-06T04:36:23Z offby1: I dimly recall reading that that sort of persistence -- an image -- has nasty problems, but I forget what they were
2014-09-06T04:36:50Z offby1: you don't _have_ to use postgresql; there are lots of other options; but postgresql is great if you want SQL
2014-09-06T04:36:53Z burger-king: well i suppose if the diff or the main file get jacked, your lost
2014-09-06T04:36:58Z offby1 stares blankly 
2014-09-06T04:36:59Z burger-king: hm
2014-09-06T04:37:10Z burger-king: i guess i had hoped to learn 1 thing, scheme
2014-09-06T04:37:14Z burger-king: but now I gota learn 1+
2014-09-06T04:37:15Z offby1: well, if your persistent store goes away, you're screwed, regardless of what form it takes
2014-09-06T04:37:24Z burger-king: of course yes yes
2014-09-06T04:38:05Z burger-king: www.prevayler.org I had hopeed for this in scheme
2014-09-06T04:38:11Z burger-king: java bleh
2014-09-06T04:38:35Z offby1: there might be some equivalent available for some scheme; I just don't know what it might be
2014-09-06T04:40:04Z burger-king: http://prevayler.org/old_wiki/PrevalenceSkepticalFAQ.html
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2014-09-06T04:40:49Z burger-king: I saw chicken schemes awful can use postgresql
2014-09-06T04:40:54Z burger-king: maybe thats what I should do
2014-09-06T04:41:46Z offby1: I'd pick a scheme implementation, then ask on their mailing list -- I'd be a bit surprised if there weren't an equivalent to Prevalence for (say) racket, chicken, or guile
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2014-09-06T06:33:56Z samth: offby1: once they ask about prevalyer you know it's gavino
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2014-09-06T11:45:56Z zacts: gavino is so totally boring
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2014-09-06T11:53:08Z pjb: zacts: gavino is so totally /ignored and kill-filed.
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2014-09-06T15:00:33Z offby1: samth: Ah, I don't know all the ins and outs of gavino
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2014-09-06T15:01:57Z ijp: it probably wouldn't be too difficult to automate checking if a person is gavino
2014-09-06T15:02:57Z ijp: sort of a Baby's First Machine Learning application
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2014-09-06T15:32:28Z ilammy: what's that gavino everybody's talking about?
2014-09-06T15:32:57Z ilammy: for a person that knows russian it does not sound as something nice
2014-09-06T15:36:43Z ijp: ilammy: a troll of minor imagination
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2014-09-06T15:44:43Z ijp: more of a "help vampire" preying on newbies than actually antagonistic
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2014-09-06T15:45:27Z corecode: hi
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2014-09-06T15:49:43Z corecode: i'm trying to do some guile-gnome with emacs/geiser, but while the gtk main loop is running, emacs is busy, so i can't repl anything
2014-09-06T15:50:04Z corecode: any suggestions how i could maintain a repl?
2014-09-06T15:50:36Z ijp: there must be support for this in guile-gnome somewhere already, but, failing that, you can use guile's repl server
2014-09-06T15:50:54Z ijp: see the --listen option, and M-x geiser-connect
2014-09-06T15:53:29Z theseb: dare i ask if anyone knows when the emacs lisp -> guile shim will be done so we can all start using Scheme based Emacs?
2014-09-06T15:53:46Z ijp: when it is ready
2014-09-06T15:53:56Z theseb: i heard it will be FASTER for some reason..i guess because scheme interpreters are faster than the emacs lisp stuff for some unknown reason
2014-09-06T15:54:03Z theseb: ijp: i can't wait any longer
2014-09-06T15:54:14Z ijp: then build what exists just now, and get hacking
2014-09-06T15:54:39Z theseb: ijp: kk. :)....is scheme inherently faster than elisp? why else would it make emacs faster?
2014-09-06T15:54:40Z ijp: see http://www.emacswiki.org/emacs/GuileEmacs
2014-09-06T15:54:53Z ijp: theseb: languages aren't fast or slow, implementations are fast or slow
2014-09-06T15:55:25Z ijp: but making emacs lisp be speedy has never been a particular priority
2014-09-06T15:55:51Z theseb: ijp: wouldn't it be easier to speed up elisp than to try to implement elips in guile?
2014-09-06T15:56:06Z ijp: I don't know
2014-09-06T15:56:46Z theseb: ijp: oh i had another (crazy?) idea......what about implementing common lisp in scheme?
2014-09-06T15:57:16Z theseb: ijp: basically every time some says they want something more "practical" then scheme we can just implement it in scheme to have it both ways!?
2014-09-06T15:57:18Z ijp: stis has been trying that for guile, but I didn't pay attention to it. he spends more time on his prolog implementation anyway
2014-09-06T15:58:05Z ijp: https://gitorious.org/guile-cl
2014-09-06T15:58:27Z theseb: ijp: i thought whole planet hosted their code on github?
2014-09-06T15:59:01Z corecode: ijp: guess that would get me only half way
2014-09-06T15:59:22Z corecode: ijp: i would have to run the repl as some gtk task or so
2014-09-06T15:59:47Z ijp: corecode: how so?
2014-09-06T15:59:58Z ijp: run guile gnome with that option, the server connects in a different thread
2014-09-06T16:00:07Z corecode: ah yea
2014-09-06T16:00:10Z corecode: hmm
2014-09-06T16:00:15Z ijp: assuming guile-gnomes runner takes the same options
2014-09-06T16:00:25Z ijp: which it probably doesn't, mauahahaha
2014-09-06T16:00:44Z ijp: theseb: I hear some people still use sourceforge
2014-09-06T16:01:11Z theseb: ijp: personally i like mercurial so i use bitbucket..i'm a maverick too
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2014-09-06T16:02:22Z corecode: ijp: haha, no, geiser still blocks, waiting for the evaluation
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2014-09-06T16:03:17Z ijp: corecode: you've reached the limit of my knowledge then, sorry
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2014-09-06T16:05:21Z corecode: (begin-thread (my-main)) works good enough
2014-09-06T16:06:14Z ijp: corecode: were you trying to run the main loop in geiser?
2014-09-06T16:06:52Z corecode: yes
2014-09-06T16:07:00Z ijp: ah, yes, don't do that
2014-09-06T16:07:15Z corecode: these are my first steps with guile and geiser
2014-09-06T16:07:19Z ijp: or do it in a thread, as you've surmised
2014-09-06T16:07:21Z corecode: so far i've only been elisping
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2014-09-06T16:19:31Z theseb: is lambda considered an atom?
2014-09-06T16:20:09Z theseb: (atom lambda) <-- doesn't work in guile
2014-09-06T16:20:48Z theseb: (atom? '2) <-- also barfs
2014-09-06T16:21:47Z theseb: using this....(define (atom? x) (not (pair? x)))
2014-09-06T16:21:48Z ijp: first off, atom? is not really used outside of the little schemer, where it simply says is foo not a pair
2014-09-06T16:21:56Z ijp: the latter is more surprising
2014-09-06T16:21:56Z theseb: (atom? 'lambda) returns #t fwiw
2014-09-06T16:22:20Z ijp: lambda is a keyword (macro), rather than a normal identifier, which is why the first one fails
2014-09-06T16:22:40Z theseb: lambda is not a list so i vote it is an atom...assuming we define anything that isn't a list, cons...as an atom
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2014-09-06T16:23:25Z ijp: which implementation are you using? the second one should not fail in any normal scheme
2014-09-06T16:23:41Z ijp: since quote is no-op on self-quoting things like numbers
2014-09-06T16:23:44Z ijp: rudybot: (define (atom? x) (not (pair? x)))
2014-09-06T16:23:45Z rudybot: ijp: your sandbox is ready
2014-09-06T16:23:45Z rudybot: ijp: Done.
2014-09-06T16:23:50Z ijp: rudybot: (atom? '2)
2014-09-06T16:23:51Z rudybot: ijp: ; Value: #t
2014-09-06T16:24:47Z theseb: ijp: guile
2014-09-06T16:24:59Z ijp: it doesn't fail in guile for me
2014-09-06T16:25:13Z corecode: :/ with a separate thread, i don't see backtraces
2014-09-06T16:25:20Z corecode: oh well, this needs some more work
2014-09-06T16:33:27Z theseb: when you try to modify the value of a variable....it will modify it in the "lowest" occurrence in the environment right?
2014-09-06T16:33:41Z theseb: i.e. if it only appears in the global env then that is what gets changed right?
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2014-09-06T16:34:05Z theseb: so that means ANY function in ANY scope can mess up the globals right?
2014-09-06T16:34:52Z corecode: that's what globals are
2014-09-06T16:37:35Z theseb: yet when you try to SET a variable you cannot set a global unless you are in global scope right?
2014-09-06T16:41:12Z taylanub: you're always in global scope .. it's global!
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2014-09-06T16:44:43Z offby1: I think theseb is simply trying to understand lexical scope in general.
2014-09-06T16:44:59Z offby1: And I think he/she needs to carefully re-read the textbook chapter on that
2014-09-06T16:45:49Z theseb: offby1: yes..i'm trying to create an image in my mind of the env hiearchy
2014-09-06T16:46:43Z theseb: offby1: after doing lots of reading it seems definitions can modifty anywhere on the stack but sets (modifications) can only modify lowest levels of the env stack
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2014-09-06T16:47:40Z offby1: I believe you are wrong about the first part
2014-09-06T16:47:40Z ijp: theseb: well, you can model it with nested environments, and the mutation only affects the lowest environment which that binding exists in, but it needn't be implemented that way
2014-09-06T16:47:51Z offby1: definitions don't modify anything; they create new variables
2014-09-06T16:48:05Z ijp: offby1: well, r5rs puns it to also mean set!
2014-09-06T16:48:10Z ijp: but that only works at the top level
2014-09-06T16:48:11Z offby1: oh dear
2014-09-06T16:48:17Z offby1: which as we all know is hopeless
2014-09-06T16:49:34Z theseb: offby1: wait...definitions modify lowest level of stack and set (mods) can alter lowest appearance of var on env stack?
2014-09-06T16:49:49Z theseb: offby1: so SET is what can affect any level but not define
2014-09-06T16:49:51Z offby1: I don't think definitions modify anything
2014-09-06T16:49:55Z offby1: they introduce _new_ name
2014-09-06T16:49:56Z offby1: s
2014-09-06T16:50:00Z theseb: offby1: yes...that is what i meant
2014-09-06T16:50:10Z theseb: they ADD a var/value pair
2014-09-06T16:50:54Z offby1: theseb: why don't you write a tiny program that demonstrates what you think is happening.  If it works as you expect, that means you understand what's going on; good.  If not, you can show us and we'll explain it.
2014-09-06T16:51:03Z theseb: offby1: ok
2014-09-06T16:51:09Z offby1: and I do mean _tiny_
2014-09-06T16:51:17Z offby1: if it's more than a few lines I won't bother looking at it
2014-09-06T16:51:50Z theseb: offby1: i actually write a little scheme and understood lex scope at one point..just getting back into it after a hiatus
2014-09-06T16:51:52Z theseb: and reviewing
2014-09-06T16:52:40Z theseb: yes i got it now.....you can mutate globals anywhere in your program but you can't ADD new globals anywhere in your program
2014-09-06T16:52:59Z ijp: if they are not shadowed, yes
2014-09-06T16:53:05Z theseb: iirc the place you can add globals is called "toplevel"
2014-09-06T16:53:07Z theseb: by the gurus
2014-09-06T16:53:22Z ijp: that's what makes them global
2014-09-06T16:53:26Z theseb: its coming back to me :)
2014-09-06T16:56:05Z theseb: some interesting thoughts that came into my head today.......parsers lead to abstract syntax trees which are basically lisp expressions
2014-09-06T16:56:26Z theseb: hence parsers essentially can be defined as programs that convert other languages to lisp/scheme
2014-09-06T16:56:32Z theseb: i thought that was interesting
2014-09-06T16:58:47Z theseb: lisp is like the universal language...the ASCII if you will..of computer programming...the esperanto/english you need to flip back to
2014-09-06T16:58:48Z taylanub: theseb: within a `lambda' body (and thus also `let' or so, since it's conceptually derived from `lambda'), a series of `define' forms at the beginning of the body are really just syntax sugar for a `letrec' form.  example: http://sprunge.us/EFFN
2014-09-06T16:59:11Z corecode: this guile-gnome is sadly a bit underdocumented :/
2014-09-06T17:00:43Z taylanub: theseb: and therefore, in the normal case you can *only* create child scopes with additional bindings and not *add* bindings to any existing scope.  however, `define' forms at the top-level of a Scheme program/library or in a REPL are oddly different, in that they really *add* something to the top-level environment instead of creating a child scope.  top-level definitions are an exception.
2014-09-06T17:02:06Z theseb: taylanub: yes..thanks
2014-09-06T17:03:47Z ijp: theseb: in the beginning, church created the lambda, everything else is the work of man
2014-09-06T17:04:15Z theseb: And McCarthy created lists and it was good
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2014-09-06T17:05:49Z theseb: the evolution of languages.....Church -> McCarthy -> Sussman ...it took about 40 years to go from lambda calc to a nice elegant scheme!
2014-09-06T17:06:19Z theseb: now in 40 years is there anything that will be in the next step of the evolution? :)
2014-09-06T17:06:36Z theseb: or is scheme that ultimate?
2014-09-06T17:06:45Z theseb: the Platonic Ideal if you will?
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2014-09-06T17:18:13Z offby1: ijp: you need to work on that church/lambda quip
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2014-09-06T19:11:50Z dmiles_afk: theseb : https://www.cs.cmu.edu/afs/cs/project/ai-repository/ai/lang/lisp/impl/bbn/0.html
2014-09-06T19:11:50Z rudybot: http://tinyurl.com/kcc46os
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2014-09-06T19:12:18Z dmiles_afk: BBN: BBN Butterfly Common Lisp and BBN Butterfly Scheme
2014-09-06T19:12:55Z theseb: dmiles_afk: what is the deal with this scheme and why should we care?
2014-09-06T19:13:11Z dmiles_afk: i thought you wanted a impl of CL in scheme
2014-09-06T19:14:43Z theseb: ah
2014-09-06T19:14:49Z theseb: the url didn't say that...but i see now
2014-09-06T19:14:58Z theseb: thanks
2014-09-06T19:16:13Z dmiles_afk: someone (we) need to create litterly a CL impl that runs on some widely used distro of sceme
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2014-09-06T19:16:52Z dmiles_afk: i want CL in sceheme badly myself.. but no time to work on it
2014-09-06T19:20:56Z dmiles_afk: i started to impl CL in McCarthy SubLisp http://pastebin.com/K2eKB1nk
2014-09-06T19:21:45Z dmiles_afk: but i wish all that was required now was to impl McCarthy SubLisp in Scheme
2014-09-06T19:22:30Z dmiles_afk: But my impl of CL is not complete enough
2014-09-06T19:27:21Z dmiles_afk: McCarthy SubLisp is what I am assuming CYC is
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2014-09-06T19:31:14Z theseb: dmiles_afk: i'm curious why you/we *need* a CL in lisp?
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2014-09-06T19:33:36Z dmiles_afk: well i *need* CL in prolog, But think i cant get there easily without a stopgap of scheme (besides that would been nice anyhow!) .. i have 70,000 line prolog program i created 15 years ago that i need to port
2014-09-06T19:33:58Z dmiles_afk: well it is a reimpl of CYC infenre engine and modules
2014-09-06T19:34:39Z dmiles_afk: i'd still have several modules that are in CL that need to go onto the 70k system
2014-09-06T19:35:37Z dmiles_afk: i dont believe existing toy prolog sywstems in lisp or sceme are enoguh
2014-09-06T19:36:39Z dmiles_afk: to meet the needs and demands of my prolog programming.. they end up being magnitures slower or megnatudes more ram
2014-09-06T19:37:12Z dmiles_afk: i think getting to CL from scheme is sane
2014-09-06T19:37:22Z ijp: dmiles_afk: I think I mentioned this to you before, but ping stis (I can pm you his email), he is interested in both of these things, and can give you some help
2014-09-06T19:37:44Z dmiles_afk: ah i thought stis was interestedi n impl prolog
2014-09-06T19:37:57Z dmiles_afk: (and not of CL)
2014-09-06T19:37:58Z ijp: yes, but the above guile-cl is his as well
2014-09-06T19:38:16Z dmiles_afk: ah.. neat
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2014-09-06T19:40:45Z dmiles_afk: theseb: why do you/we need?
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2014-09-06T21:28:01Z vanila: hi
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2014-09-06T22:13:05Z vanila: Is anyone in contact with anyone who can fix lambda the ultimate?
2014-09-06T22:14:13Z oleo: why ?
2014-09-06T22:14:41Z vanila: because it needs fixed
2014-09-06T22:15:22Z oleo: erm, what's wrong ?
2014-09-06T22:15:44Z vanila: registration and password reset
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2014-09-06T22:18:31Z vanila: could you help please?
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2014-09-06T22:20:47Z oleo: heh
2014-09-06T22:20:59Z oleo: i just created an account and got my password sent by email
2014-09-06T22:21:04Z oleo: but it does not work for login
2014-09-06T22:21:08Z oleo: no idea why
2014-09-06T22:21:16Z oleo: seems buggy
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2014-09-06T22:39:32Z diginet: what is the most portable of all the schemes?
2014-09-06T22:39:52Z vanila: probably chicken since it compiles to C? not really sure
2014-09-06T22:40:58Z diginet: would scheme be a good choice for writing an assembler in?
2014-09-06T22:41:35Z vanila: yes
2014-09-06T22:42:24Z diginet: what is the best scheme intro out there?
2014-09-06T22:42:50Z vanila: SICP is comprehensive but little scheme & seasoned scheme are good for just getting started
2014-09-06T22:42:59Z vanila: schemer*
2014-09-06T22:43:05Z diginet: thanks
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2014-09-07T02:04:02Z jcowan: hoi hoi
2014-09-07T02:04:22Z vanila: hi jcowan
2014-09-07T02:04:38Z jcowan: hey ho, vanila.
2014-09-07T02:04:54Z vanila: could you please help about lambda the ultimate?
2014-09-07T02:05:44Z jcowan: I'll try
2014-09-07T02:05:51Z jcowan: You mean the papers, or the web site?
2014-09-07T02:06:04Z vanila: the website has been broken for a long time
2014-09-07T02:06:19Z vanila: registration doesn't work, password reset makes sql errors
2014-09-07T02:07:08Z jcowan: Ugh.  I haven't noticed these problems, but then I'm already registered.
2014-09-07T02:07:18Z jcowan: I have no involvement with the admins there.
2014-09-07T02:07:28Z vanila: yes someone on the inside needs to post to the forum about it or something
2014-09-07T02:07:39Z vanila: all us plebs are unable to get in
2014-09-07T02:07:58Z ijp: surely there is a contact email address on the site you could have used
2014-09-07T02:08:01Z vanila: I was going to email ehud but his page is al yiddish
2014-09-07T02:08:14Z jcowan tests
2014-09-07T02:12:31Z jcowan: Okay, I've gotten as far as being told a confirmation notice is being sent.  So far I haven't seen it, though.
2014-09-07T02:13:12Z vanila: can I /msg you some errors that I get?
2014-09-07T02:13:15Z jcowan: Sure.
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2014-09-07T02:21:37Z burger-brother: yeah
2014-09-07T02:21:39Z burger-brother: yeahhhhh
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2014-09-07T09:45:38Z corecode: this guile gtk business does not work really flawlessly
2014-09-07T09:46:04Z corecode: when a callback lambda fails, the whole gtk application hangs itself
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2014-09-07T09:46:25Z corecode: would need some sort of unwind protection across C calls, i guess
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2014-09-07T10:32:40Z pjb: corecode: you need to handle errors in each callbacks.
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2014-09-07T17:06:02Z vanila: hi
2014-09-07T17:06:53Z vanila: what do scheme compilers do after CPS and closure conversion??
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2014-09-07T17:07:09Z vanila: I don't understand how to do execution and garbage collection properly for it
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2014-09-07T17:14:17Z ijp: b
2014-09-07T17:17:47Z offby1: c
2014-09-07T17:19:12Z ijp: vanila: after the closure conversion comes code generation
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2014-09-07T17:24:21Z ijp: well, in guile there are two small passes in between, but basically then you can generate
2014-09-07T17:24:48Z vanila: I don't know what to generate
2014-09-07T17:25:09Z vanila: http://lpaste.net/110659 this is what i tried but it segfaults
2014-09-07T17:25:41Z ijp: well, unhelpfully, it depends on what language you are compiling to
2014-09-07T17:26:07Z vanila: I thought a stack machine that executes closures be a good target
2014-09-07T17:26:15Z vanila: so i made that runtime in C and compile to it
2014-09-07T17:26:45Z ijp: no offense, but I'm not going to read 600 lines of mostly generated code
2014-09-07T17:26:53Z ijp: it's bad enough debugging a code generator you wrote yourself
2014-09-07T17:27:30Z ijp: start with the simplest examples you can think of
2014-09-07T17:31:16Z vanila: generate what?
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2014-09-07T17:31:37Z ijp: I dunno, start with (+ 1 1)
2014-09-07T17:31:54Z vanila: I mean what do you generate after CPS and CC
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2014-09-07T17:32:20Z ijp: C, JS, brainfuck, XML, whatever
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2014-09-07T17:33:28Z vanila: I don't know how to word my question to get a useful answer
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2014-09-07T17:35:58Z ijp: vanila: you've written an interpreter before? you've written macros before?
2014-09-07T17:36:14Z ijp: it's the same set of skills to write a compiler
2014-09-07T17:36:17Z vanila: yeah i have done those
2014-09-07T17:36:43Z ijp: what is the language you are writing in, how would you use the primitives you have available to you to encode a program that means the same as the scheme one
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2014-09-07T19:43:31Z vanila: WHat's the difference between a cons and size 2 vector?
2014-09-07T19:44:22Z daviid: apple and orange
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2014-09-07T19:49:10Z _tca: vanila: nothing if it's a vector of  pointers
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2014-09-07T19:53:13Z ijp: you can't vector-ref a cons
2014-09-07T19:53:51Z ijp: see also: what's the difference between a record and a vector
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2014-09-07T20:40:32Z pjb: vanila: fundamentally, there's no difference.
2014-09-07T20:41:12Z pjb: Also, there's no difference between a cons cell such as (cons 1 2) and a closure such as ((lambda (a d) (lambda (k) (k a d))) 1 2)
2014-09-07T20:41:35Z vanila: interesting pjb
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2014-09-07T20:41:55Z pjb: in practice, there's the fact that scheme is a typed lambda calculus, therefore there's this cons? function that distinguish between closures and cons cells, or vector? between vectors and cons cells, etc.
2014-09-07T20:42:25Z pjb: (We could  build a typed lambda calculus so we could still use lambda to build conses and vectors and distinguish their types).
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2014-09-07T20:43:00Z pjb: But this is only useful in programs that perform some level of introspection.  Otherwise, conceptually, no difference.
2014-09-07T20:44:28Z pjb: This is the reason why conses are taken as a fundamental data structuring construct in lisp, to build lists, to express lambda formulas, including an evaluator, for which we can easily write an implementation in assembler, and thus build the oldest language still in use after fortran.
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2014-09-07T21:49:37Z samth: pjb: that isn't what typed lambda calculus means
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2014-09-08T01:28:41Z jcowan: hoi hoi
2014-09-08T01:28:53Z vanila: heyy
2014-09-08T01:29:52Z jcowan: Haven't heard back, vanila.
2014-09-08T01:30:31Z vanila: ok, but thanks! they mght do something about it once they know
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2014-09-08T12:28:56Z vanila: what are the exact semamtics of DEFINE?
2014-09-08T12:29:01Z vanila: at the top level
2014-09-08T12:29:21Z vanila: is it equivalent to (let ((variables ...) ...) (letrec ((functions ...) ...) ...))
2014-09-08T12:30:12Z ecraven: vanila: no, because you can use it to redefine existing bindings
2014-09-08T12:30:25Z vanila: damn
2014-09-08T12:30:32Z vanila: define is so confusing
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2014-09-08T12:32:04Z ecraven: vanila: why?
2014-09-08T12:33:33Z vanila: maybe I shouldn't think of top level defines as special?
2014-09-08T12:33:44Z vanila: since you can have inner functions with define too
2014-09-08T12:33:59Z taylanub: top-level defines are special
2014-09-08T12:34:11Z taylanub: let me paste logs from the other day, I happened to explain this to someone
2014-09-08T12:34:12Z ecraven: inner define is the same as letrec* (in r7rs), i seem to remember
2014-09-08T12:35:25Z taylanub: vanila: explanation: http://sprunge.us/HGQG
2014-09-08T12:35:52Z taylanub notes this down as a possible future blog entry
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2014-09-08T12:46:11Z vanila:  interesting..
2014-09-08T12:46:12Z vanila: thanks
2014-09-08T12:46:29Z vanila: I've never heard of letrec*
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2014-09-08T12:50:01Z LeoNerd: letrec* is the implied behaviour of inner definitions in r5 but it wasn't exposed as its own control operator
2014-09-08T12:50:07Z LeoNerd: r7 gave it a real name
2014-09-08T12:51:03Z vanila: is R7RS good?
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2014-09-08T12:51:33Z vanila: I guess ill look at it
2014-09-08T12:53:39Z taylanub: R7RS-small is basically an update to R5RS
2014-09-08T12:53:44Z taylanub: a pretty good one IMO
2014-09-08T12:54:14Z vanila: ok that sounds really nice
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2014-09-08T13:00:19Z vanila: is there an HTML version?
2014-09-08T13:00:21Z vanila: http://trac.sacrideo.us/wg/wiki/R7RSHomePage
2014-09-08T13:00:26Z vanila: this has PDF and LaTeX
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2014-09-08T13:02:22Z taylanub: don't think there's an HTML version yet
2014-09-08T13:03:38Z ecraven: you could generate one from the tex sources
2014-09-08T13:03:42Z vanila: ok]
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2014-09-08T16:18:00Z sethalves: so far, there hasn't been a satisfying html version of r7rs-small made.  if you make one, please share!
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2014-09-08T16:19:21Z vanila: sethalves, ok
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2014-09-08T19:36:50Z pnpuff: taylanub: I've seen your nice explanation about `define' forms in Scheme. Anyway there is nothing that explains how a `define' form add some new bindings to the existing environment instead of create "temporary" bindings only inside a child scope as happens when define is used as a sintactic sugar of letrec inside a let or a lambda form.
2014-09-08T19:37:35Z pnpuff: *syntactic
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2014-09-08T19:38:03Z taylanub: pnpuff: it just does that, and it's the only thing capable of doing that.  a primitive if you will
2014-09-08T19:39:33Z taylanub: so, in a local/lambda scope it's just sugar for letrec*; in the top-level it's its own thing
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2014-09-08T19:44:54Z pnpuff: ok, I've not still not clear how `define' could be implemented in the top-level environment
2014-09-08T19:45:09Z pnpuff: not still clear...
2014-09-08T19:47:22Z pnpuff: I mean to create new "global" bindings in the top-level environment
2014-09-08T19:49:18Z vanila: for a single program with some defines then a form to execute, what would be th differnce just turning that into letrec*?
2014-09-08T19:54:39Z pnpuff: Yes, of course... I would like to create new bindings in the top-level env
2014-09-08T19:55:03Z pnpuff: but currently I don't know how that coul be possible
2014-09-08T19:55:06Z pnpuff: *could
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2014-09-08T20:15:00Z ilammy: pnpuff: also, define magically tracks already defined variables, because redefining a variable is equivalent to set!ing it, not removing the binding and adding it back
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2014-09-08T20:43:43Z theseb: are macros just convenient text substitutions that are only for convenience?...just like 'a is just a convenient way to say (quote a)?
2014-09-08T20:44:06Z turbofail: no
2014-09-08T20:44:08Z vanila: it's not text but syntax substitutions
2014-09-08T20:44:23Z vanila: i.e. they will always expand into well balanced parenthesis and stuff
2014-09-08T20:44:38Z taylanub: pnpuff: you can't define or explain the top-level `define' in terms of other things.  it's fundamental
2014-09-08T20:44:40Z vanila: and in scheme you have lexical closures, so macro-expansion is careful about bound variables
2014-09-08T20:44:47Z theseb: what i'm getting at is lisp is turing complete w/o macros and they programs can always be written to excise the macro right?
2014-09-08T20:44:58Z turbofail: well yes that part is true
2014-09-08T20:44:58Z taylanub: pnpuff: (well, you might be able to explain it with some series of letrec*s at the top-level, but it would be a little contrived)
2014-09-08T20:45:13Z vanila: yeah, macroexpansion is just a phase which takes scheme code and outputs scheme code - it's a source to source trasnform
2014-09-08T20:45:23Z turbofail: theseb: "expand the macro" is the preferred nomenclature
2014-09-08T20:45:35Z taylanub: theseb: assembly is turing complete too :)
2014-09-08T20:45:47Z taylanub: theseb: like functions, macros are a fundamental tool for abstraction
2014-09-08T20:45:57Z theseb: thanks all
2014-09-08T20:46:15Z taylanub: they can be done without, but they help a great deal to write abstract code
2014-09-08T20:47:05Z theseb: turbofail: yea..i like "expand the macro"..i implies the macro is just an abbreviation for a bunch of code
2014-09-08T20:47:10Z theseb: s/i/it
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2014-09-08T20:48:12Z antoszka: theseb: well, macroexpansion is a transformation of the s-expression tree, not text substitution
2014-09-08T20:48:25Z antoszka: theseb: also, can we stick to a single channel with that discussion?
2014-09-08T20:48:29Z theseb: antoszka: right
2014-09-08T20:48:29Z theseb: k
2014-09-08T20:49:28Z taylanub: theseb: the expansion is not simply Scheme code though.  well it can somehow be transformed back to Scheme code maybe, but the simple way to look at it is that macros hold "raw" references to bindings from other modules, so when you use a macro from another module then the expanded "code" has a reference to an object in another module without using the "name" of that object (i.e. the variable it
2014-09-08T20:49:28Z taylanub: was bound to in that module)
2014-09-08T20:49:56Z taylanub: to be more precise, macros hold raw references to bindings from the module they were defined in, not "other modules"
2014-09-08T20:50:08Z antoszka: Yeah, but that's Scheme-specific and since theseb asked the same question in #lisp I think she/he's after a general idea ;)
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2014-09-08T20:53:00Z taylanub: ok.  I explained hygienic macros.  unhygienic ones indeed just expand to code, thus have all the shadowing problems...  hm, I could swear there was a Wikipedia page explaining that problem with simple C macros but I can't find it
2014-09-08T20:54:08Z taylanub: here it is:  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hygienic_macro#The_hygiene_problem
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2014-09-09T10:06:32Z vramana: What is the way to setup Scheme on Linux so that I can use it with Sublime Text?
2014-09-09T10:07:40Z taylanub: Emacs on GNU/Linux is recommended for Lisp development.
2014-09-09T10:09:08Z ARM9: Vim on GNU/Linux is recommended for Lisp development.
2014-09-09T10:09:19Z taylanub: :)
2014-09-09T10:10:30Z taylanub: I'm guessing that most lispers prefer to use Emacs, since it's a Lisp VM itself
2014-09-09T10:11:26Z taylanub: there's Geiser for Emacs to interact with Guile or Racket.  dunno what Vim has as a parallel
2014-09-09T10:15:51Z vramana: taylanub: Emacs seemed a little scary to me. I have poked at it a few times but I didn't like it that much. I guess I'll try again
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2014-09-09T10:17:20Z vramana: But How do I setup scheme?
2014-09-09T10:21:41Z ARM9: install guile or racket
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2014-09-09T10:23:03Z vramana: ARM9: Then ?
2014-09-09T10:23:16Z ARM9: write code
2014-09-09T10:23:27Z taylanub: Guile, Racket, Chicken, Gauche, Gambit, MIT Scheme, Chibi, all fine.  http://wingolog.org/archives/2013/01/07/an-opinionated-guide-to-scheme-implementations
2014-09-09T10:23:28Z rudybot: http://tinyurl.com/b3fjhzx
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2014-09-09T11:19:03Z vramana: taylanub: I have Emacs 24 When I do M-x package-install RET geiser RET  IT says No match
2014-09-09T11:19:32Z taylanub: vramana: on what GNU/Linux distro are you?
2014-09-09T11:19:43Z vramana: Ubuntu 14.04
2014-09-09T11:20:59Z taylanub: hm, dunno if that has Geiser in packages.  anyway, do (dolist (entry '(("marmalade" . "http://marmalade-repo.org/packages/") ("melpa-stable" . "http://melpa-stable.milkbox.net/packages/"))) (add-to-list 'package-archives entry t))
2014-09-09T11:21:14Z taylanub: you can copypaste that into M-:
2014-09-09T11:21:28Z taylanub: and for your .emacs:  http://sprunge.us/OLJh
2014-09-09T11:26:54Z vramana: taylanub: It says nil
2014-09-09T11:29:39Z alezost: vramana: now you should have geiser in a list of packages (M-x list-packages)
2014-09-09T11:35:41Z vramana: alezost: Nope I tried search it said search failed.
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2014-09-09T11:40:42Z vramana1: alezost: Nope I tried search it said search failed. What am I doing wrong?
2014-09-09T11:40:56Z alezost: vramana1: check that you have those repos in `package-archives' (C-h v package-archives)
2014-09-09T11:41:38Z alezost: vramana1: if yes, "M-x list-packages" should have geiser
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2014-09-09T11:45:53Z vramana1: Yes it has. It didn't refresh the list for some reason.
2014-09-09T11:46:04Z vramana1: when checked previously
2014-09-09T11:54:13Z taylanub: vramana1: might want to kill the buffer (C-x k RET) and reopen it (M-x list packages RET)
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2014-09-09T14:33:54Z DGASAU: taylanub: assembly is not Turing-complete, definitely.
2014-09-09T14:34:30Z taylanub: DGASAU: ?
2014-09-09T14:34:41Z vanila: you need infinite memory, it's just a technicality
2014-09-09T14:35:01Z taylanub: oh
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2014-09-09T14:35:11Z vanila: if you have a way to write to an infinite disk or something you recovoer turing completeness
2014-09-09T14:35:17Z vanila: infinite tape*
2014-09-09T14:35:32Z DGASAU: Yes, but assembler doesn't support infinite memory.
2014-09-09T14:37:16Z DGASAU: Well... I wouldn't call that technicality.
2014-09-09T14:37:34Z vanila: I missed the earlier part of the discussion
2014-09-09T14:37:42Z DGASAU: It's like committing to ultrafinitism.
2014-09-09T14:37:48Z vanila: haha
2014-09-09T14:38:06Z gnomon: vanila, the earlier part of this discussion extends back about fifty years.
2014-09-09T14:38:20Z DGASAU: Sure, if you commit to ultrafinitism, a lot of things will become simpler.
2014-09-09T14:38:22Z DGASAU: Probably.
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2014-09-09T14:39:04Z vanila: so today I tried to add a standard lib to my [second attempt at making a] scheme compiler
2014-09-09T14:39:19Z DGASAU: ...E.g. context-free languages become regular ones, most probably.
2014-09-09T14:39:21Z vanila: the emitted C for the stdlib + (display '(x y)) is 40k lines :/
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2014-09-09T14:39:35Z vanila: and it prints garbage
2014-09-09T14:39:46Z vanila: so i think i have to give up on that
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2014-09-09T14:40:44Z vanila: i dont know what i have to learn to succeed at this
2014-09-09T14:41:01Z gnomon: Patience.
2014-09-09T14:41:07Z gnomon: Everything else is secondary.
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2014-09-09T14:52:20Z vanila: i wish i knwe
2014-09-09T14:52:24Z vanila: its really really hard
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2014-09-09T14:55:26Z vanila: if I sketch the compiler i wrote would anyonc comment on if its reasonable? because the blowup from compiling a file with a few definitions seems like i must have something really wrong
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2014-09-09T15:01:34Z vanila: http://lpaste.net/raw/110798 I wrote it out
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2014-09-09T15:05:23Z vanila: and im shocked how hard it is to write a compiler, i thought undergrads do this in computing school - so it should be easy..
2014-09-09T15:05:53Z DGASAU: It depends on skills.
2014-09-09T15:06:08Z DGASAU: You need some to do that.
2014-09-09T15:06:59Z vanila: DGASAU: hmm? Are you just trying to cut me down - not sure what you mean
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2014-09-09T15:08:34Z DGASAU: I mean that functional systems (devices, programs) are built piece by piece from functional parts.
2014-09-09T15:09:01Z DGASAU: This is old engineering law.
2014-09-09T15:09:20Z DGASAU: Compilers are built piece by piece as well.
2014-09-09T15:09:53Z DGASAU: Try to decompose your problem again and check your parts.
2014-09-09T15:10:55Z vanila: each compiler pass is a procedure
2014-09-09T15:11:12Z DGASAU: Check them in isolation.
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2014-09-09T17:43:32Z ecraven: is there a way to redirect the stdout of a program started with SYSTEM in guile to a string port? so I can easily use the result after it has run?
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2014-09-09T17:52:12Z turbofail: dunno about a string port, but see http://www.gnu.org/software/guile/docs/docs-2.0/guile-ref/Pipes.html#Pipes for getting a port of some sort
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2014-09-09T17:56:08Z JJSacreBleu: ecraven, you can just take the current-output-port param and call it with the string port at the start of the program no?
2014-09-09T17:57:10Z ecraven: turbofail: thanks, pipes look good :)
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2014-09-09T18:03:38Z ijp: the pipe way is horrible, but it does work
2014-09-09T18:03:55Z ijp: JJSacreBleu: no, system will only inherit file based ports
2014-09-09T18:04:28Z JJSacreBleu: ijp, what's a none horrible way then?
2014-09-09T18:04:49Z ijp: there are none
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2014-09-09T18:05:44Z ecraven: unfortunately this particular program has no useful exit code but instead writes (or doesn't write) to stdout
2014-09-09T18:07:44Z JJSacreBleu: Programs communicating other things than erroneous termination with exit codes are a mess anyway.
2014-09-09T18:10:08Z JJSacreBleu: ijp, what paramater exactly does system use for its standard output then?
2014-09-09T18:10:23Z turbofail: UNIX is the worst operating system, except for all the others
2014-09-09T18:11:11Z akkad: that gnu one is not soo bad
2014-09-09T18:11:13Z JJSacreBleu: This is true.
2014-09-09T18:11:30Z turbofail: no it's still pretty bad
2014-09-09T18:11:39Z akkad: the other one
2014-09-09T18:11:44Z JJSacreBleu: The problem with OS'es is that backwards compatibility is a prime.
2014-09-09T18:11:59Z JJSacreBleu: So we're still dealing with interfaces of the 70's which in hindsight were a mistake, but can't be changed.
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2014-09-10T01:31:50Z autoburger: why is scheme more powerful than say prolog?
2014-09-10T01:32:12Z akkad: because it uses the Cattle Prod
2014-09-10T01:33:07Z akkad: the λ from Greek is from Phoenician Lahmed. Which means "Cattle Prod"
2014-09-10T01:33:31Z vanila: autoburger, that sounds subjective
2014-09-10T01:33:31Z ijp: hello gavino
2014-09-10T01:33:41Z vanila: they're both turing complete
2014-09-10T01:33:46Z vanila: but the lambda point is true
2014-09-10T01:33:58Z vanila: more better to say it's more expressive than more powerful
2014-09-10T01:34:27Z ijp: gavino, do you have any new material, or just the classics?
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2014-09-10T01:35:09Z ijp: we could start a pool on how long it takes you to bring up prevayler
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2014-09-10T06:27:04Z autoburger: scheme!
2014-09-10T06:27:09Z autoburger: oh baby!
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2014-09-10T13:08:02Z vanila: http://lpaste.net/110841 how could i reduce the number of lambdas CPS emits?
2014-09-10T13:08:15Z vanila: CPS produces so much bigger than the input, it sucks
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2014-09-10T13:25:35Z taylanub: vanila: it's kind of the point of CPS to make things very explicit (thus inevitably verbose)
2014-09-10T13:26:12Z taylanub: well the general idea anyway, I don't really have experience in CPS conversion so can't give specific advice
2014-09-10T13:27:20Z taylanub: you could look into how others do it though, for example Guile; the manual on the master branch has an overview
2014-09-10T13:28:48Z taylanub: https://www.gnu.org/software/guile/docs/master/guile.html/An-Introduction-to-CPS.html  and  http://wingolog.org/archives/2014/01/12/a-continuation-passing-style-intermediate-language-for-guile
2014-09-10T13:28:55Z rudybot: http://tinyurl.com/n82j985
2014-09-10T13:28:55Z rudybot: http://tinyurl.com/kaomra3
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2014-09-10T15:15:12Z ijp: vanila: the basic plotkin(?) cps adds a bunch of extra "administrative" lambdas, you could either do some beta/eta reduction in a separate pass, or use a different cps algorithm
2014-09-10T15:15:45Z ijp: http://matt.might.net/articles/cps-conversion/ provides a decent summary
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2014-09-10T15:45:53Z yc`: I write alot of error checking code like this `(let (x (make-x)) (when x ...))`, usually several levels deep, is there a better way to do this?
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2014-09-10T16:07:03Z vanila: (let ((x (make-x))) (when x ...))
2014-09-10T16:07:15Z vanila: (cond ((make-x) => (lambda (x) ...))
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2014-09-10T16:08:12Z vanila: you could makea macro that lets you write like (given x (make-x) ...)
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2014-09-10T16:15:00Z _tca: if-let and when-let are common macros people make to do just that, regarding nesting you could make an if-let*
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2014-09-10T19:38:34Z svercer: I have a question about r7rs, I'm not sure if there's a different place I might ask? but here goes: 4.1.2 of the "final" draft states: "(quote datum) can be abbreviated as 'datum. The two notations are equivalent in all respects." Does this mean that 'datum will pull in whatever binding of "quote" happens to be visible right now? or does it always use the (scheme base) binding?
2014-09-10T19:39:39Z taylanub: svercer: this channel is fine for R7RS; you can also ask the scheme-reports mailing list if you need.  as for your question...
2014-09-10T19:40:00Z taylanub: svercer: yes, it uses the current binding of `quote'.  in this respect the apostrophe is "unhygienic" in a sense
2014-09-10T19:40:05Z evhan: rudybot: (let ((quote -)) '1)
2014-09-10T19:40:06Z rudybot: evhan: your sandbox is ready
2014-09-10T19:40:07Z rudybot: evhan: ; Value: -1
2014-09-10T19:40:51Z svercer: heh. okay, works for me; that's got a certain appealing simplicity for (read).
2014-09-10T19:42:25Z svercer: thanks
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2014-09-10T19:45:39Z svercer: so it goes without saying that ` -> quasiquote works the same way, but I assume there's no reason that quasiquote itself, as a bit of syntax, wouldn't be hygienic; i.e., if quote is rebound but not quasiquote, ` and quasiquote will work perfectly normally?
2014-09-10T19:45:40Z autoburger: schemme ooww yeah!!
2014-09-10T19:47:14Z autoburger: u lost me
2014-09-10T19:54:37Z stamourv: svercer: Expanding `'` to `quote` happens at the reader level, so that's before anything binding-related.
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2014-09-10T22:33:20Z vanila: Is there a small scheme compiler that is easy to read and understand?
2014-09-10T22:35:18Z ecraven: scheme48 once was supposed to be
2014-09-10T22:35:27Z ecraven: not sure about chibi scheme
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2014-09-10T22:38:44Z gnomon: vanila, check out TWOBIT/HOBBIT
2014-09-10T22:39:04Z gnomon: RABBIT
2014-09-10T22:39:06Z gnomon: http://library.readscheme.org/page8.html
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2014-09-11T00:18:25Z vanila: what's the point of CPS transform in a compiler?
2014-09-11T00:18:54Z pyro-: one use is that, since nothing ever returns, you don't have to implement return
2014-09-11T00:19:20Z vanila: but return isnt in scheme
2014-09-11T00:19:27Z vanila: so i dont really understand?
2014-09-11T00:19:32Z pyro-: sure, but procedures still return
2014-09-11T00:19:52Z pyro-: anything evaluated in a tail position will be returned right?
2014-09-11T00:20:07Z pyro-: so you'd have to push a return address, ect. etc. etc.
2014-09-11T00:20:17Z vanila: hmm thanks for trying to help but It's over my head :(
2014-09-11T00:20:28Z vanila: oh wait a sec
2014-09-11T00:20:39Z vanila: it means you can just jump and jump instead of setting the return address and doing a call
2014-09-11T00:20:40Z pyro-: vanila: (lambda (x) 3), when called, returns 3
2014-09-11T00:20:55Z pyro-: doesn't matter that you don't see a keyword "return", it still returns
2014-09-11T00:21:06Z pyro-: so you'll have to implement that somehow
2014-09-11T00:21:18Z pyro-: right
2014-09-11T00:21:28Z vanila: ok thanks!
2014-09-11T00:21:39Z pyro-: in CPS returns are converted to calls, and calls are just jumps + renamed parameters
2014-09-11T00:22:08Z pyro-: of course its not *quite* that simple, you have to pop things off the stack by some mechanism at some point, too
2014-09-11T00:22:44Z pyro-: another use for CPS is that constructions which mess with the continuation, like call-with-current-continuation, or exceptions, may bee easier to implement in CPS style
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2014-09-11T08:50:02Z kvda: hello
2014-09-11T08:50:47Z kvda: can anyone point me in a direction of learning more about continuations, ie practical uses, besides the example in The Little Schemer?
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2014-09-11T17:01:34Z vanila: Where an I get a lost of small test programs for scheme?
2014-09-11T17:01:39Z vanila: small to medium
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2014-09-11T17:09:21Z taylanub: I think John Cowan has some test suites for RnRS conformance.
2014-09-11T17:09:24Z taylanub: vanila: ^
2014-09-11T17:09:39Z vanila: that sounds really interesting and usefu!
2014-09-11T17:11:24Z vanila: http://sisc.sourceforge.net/r5rs_pitfall.scm found this looking for it
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2014-09-11T18:57:35Z burger-brother: but is scheme practical --unix admin in interview
2014-09-11T18:58:13Z gnomon: Can't trust those unix admins.  Their neckbeards gets in the way of their brains.
2014-09-11T18:59:08Z ijp: hello again gavino
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2014-09-11T19:04:30Z vanila: hi
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2014-09-11T19:52:11Z burger-brother: whos gavino?
2014-09-11T19:53:05Z taylanub: you, probably
2014-09-11T19:53:37Z ijp: yes, him
2014-09-11T19:54:17Z C-Keen: taylanub: I think jcowan does it all manually but has a script that tries expressions on his scheme implementation zoo
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2014-09-11T20:02:11Z lars_: How do I connect a source code file to another file?
2014-09-11T20:02:21Z C-Keen: ?
2014-09-11T20:02:23Z ecraven: lars_: "connect"? so that one loads the other?
2014-09-11T20:02:26Z lars_: I got this schemefile
2014-09-11T20:02:34Z lars_: With these geometric properties
2014-09-11T20:02:53Z lars_: And im supposed to then use some other stuff to create this geometric shapes
2014-09-11T20:03:02Z lars_: I think so
2014-09-11T20:03:13Z lars_: I got them in the same folder. But do they have to be in tzt or something?
2014-09-11T20:03:25Z C-Keen: tzt?
2014-09-11T20:03:37Z vanila: How important are techniques like SECD and SEKC machines?
2014-09-11T20:03:41Z vanila: for writing a scheme compiler
2014-09-11T20:03:50Z vanila: are these byte code interpreters similar to ocaml?
2014-09-11T20:03:54Z lars_: Nevermind, it was probably just a name then
2014-09-11T20:04:00Z vanila: scheme48 uses bytecode but i don't know if it's important
2014-09-11T20:04:02Z C-Keen: lars_: try addig a (load "first.file") to the second file
2014-09-11T20:04:04Z vanila: wa it jst for portability
2014-09-11T20:04:27Z ijp: vanila: not important at all
2014-09-11T20:04:52Z vanila: okay thanks
2014-09-11T20:05:27Z lars_: C-Keen, actually, my bad
2014-09-11T20:05:36Z lars_: Apparently you were supposed to change the stuff in the file itself
2014-09-11T20:05:52Z gnomon: vanila, the SECD virtual machine is useful for formally reasoning about your compilation target, and possibly for use as an intermediate compilation target.  The PalmOS LispMe system explicitly used an SECD VM, and even exposed the compiled bytecodes via a simple introspection mechanism.  It is certainly not necessary, but you may find that it helps your understanding.
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2014-09-11T20:06:14Z gnomon: I've never actually heard of the SEKC machine.
2014-09-11T20:06:39Z C-Keen: lars_: now I a confused
2014-09-11T20:06:56Z ijp: gnomon: CESK is the more usual name
2014-09-11T20:07:02Z ijp: it's pretty similar
2014-09-11T20:07:45Z gnomon: Ah, OK, I've heard of CESK.  Thanks, I should have caught that.
2014-09-11T20:07:56Z ijp: oleg has a cute method for writing syntax rules macros using a ck machine rather than cps
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2014-09-11T20:12:15Z lars_: C-Keen, Nothing. It was just me that interpreted the instructions wrong
2014-09-11T20:12:30Z lars_: I do have a questions though
2014-09-11T20:12:51Z lars_: Im using DrRacket and I dont really get what the difference between the upper window and lower window in racket is
2014-09-11T20:13:04Z lars_: Is the lower the input window
2014-09-11T20:16:20Z vanila: i see thankyou
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2014-09-11T20:47:36Z lars_: I write start 400 400 and it wont create a graphic window. Does anyone know what is the problem? And whats the best language to choose on startup (DrRacket)?
2014-09-11T20:47:48Z lars_: Thanks if you have the time to answer my noob questions
2014-09-11T20:49:28Z vanila: try
2014-09-11T20:49:30Z vanila: (start 400 400)
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2014-09-11T20:51:08Z lars_: Damn, nice thanks alot vanila
2014-09-11T20:51:23Z stamourv: lars_: Re language to choose: I'd pick "select language from source" and use `#lang racket`.
2014-09-11T20:51:42Z stamourv: Unless you're doing an HTDP-based course.
2014-09-11T20:51:52Z stamourv: In which case you should use "Beginner Student Language".
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2014-09-11T21:07:20Z burger-brother: do you mean cassadra is bad?
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2014-09-11T21:16:21Z burger-brother: the racket site has books about howto do racket
2014-09-11T21:16:23Z burger-brother: :)
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2014-09-11T21:18:55Z vanila: racket is cool
2014-09-11T21:18:59Z vanila: i use control-operators
2014-09-11T21:19:13Z vanila: but I'm switching to MIT-SCHEME because I want to use syntactic closures
2014-09-11T21:21:00Z samth: vanila: why do you want syntactic closures?
2014-09-11T21:21:23Z samth: i'm genuinely curious -- i've heard people prefer pure syntax-rules, or xrename, but never SC
2014-09-11T21:23:03Z vanila: syntactic-closures are theoretically simple
2014-09-11T21:23:23Z vanila: I hope to implement them, then implement syntax-rules using them
2014-09-11T21:23:59Z samth: i think in the fixed form (ie, the one that's actually hygenic) it's not any more simple than syntax-case or xrename
2014-09-11T21:24:53Z vanila: oh no i didn't know about this, what is the fixed form?
2014-09-11T21:25:22Z samth: i think there are two papers about sc, and it's the second one
2014-09-11T21:25:30Z samth: but mit scheme implements the fixed one
2014-09-11T21:27:05Z vanila: I wonder what i should for implementation details of macro systems?
2014-09-11T21:29:11Z samth: vanila: i think there's a word missing
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2014-09-11T21:29:46Z vanila: should read
2014-09-11T21:31:05Z samth: vanila: i recommend http://www.cs.utah.edu/plt/expmodel-6/ and http://books.google.com/books?id=gJrmszNHQV4C&pg=PA411&lpg=PA411&dq=kent+dybvig+beautiful+code&source=bl&ots=rMPVvAQ4oj&sig=Thc1nFIbJr_yG66RHplOK51WnQk&hl=en&sa=X&ei=fhQSVIS1JYv5yQTL24DoBQ&ved=0CEIQ6AEwBA#v=onepage&q=kent%20dybvig%20beautiful%20code&f=false
2014-09-11T21:31:06Z rudybot: http://tinyurl.com/m6kq3m7
2014-09-11T21:31:27Z vanila: thanksa lot
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2014-09-11T21:53:20Z vanila: is syntactic-closures bad?
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2014-09-11T21:59:52Z samth: vanila: i think it's less convenient and less expressive than syntax-case style systems
2014-09-11T22:00:13Z vanila: ok I beter look into syntax-case more
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2014-09-11T22:05:55Z P4Titan: Hello all, I am looking for an interpretor for scheme, I have heard of racket, but apparently that is a seperate subset language. I run linux, anyone know of scheme compilers
2014-09-11T22:06:48Z vanila: P4Titan, Racket can do R5RS scheme, just choose it from the languages menu!
2014-09-11T22:07:03Z vanila: there's a lot of schemes on linux though
2014-09-11T22:07:21Z P4Titan: are there any prefered ones?
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2014-09-11T22:08:14Z nisstyre: P4Titan: there is GNU Guile, Chicken, Swindle
2014-09-11T22:08:18Z nisstyre: MIT/GNU Scheme
2014-09-11T22:08:52Z nisstyre: http://www.call-cc.org/
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2014-09-11T22:09:48Z P4Titan: Thanks, I just installed guile
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2014-09-11T22:40:21Z vanila: hi
2014-09-11T22:40:27Z vanila: would anyone comment on my pattern matcher
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2014-09-11T22:41:20Z vanila: http://paste.lisp.org/display/143686
2014-09-11T22:41:37Z vanila: I wonder if this is really good?
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2014-09-11T22:46:57Z pjb: vanila: in the else case, p could stil not be a pair!
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2014-09-11T22:47:12Z pjb: you should test for other atoms in the pattern and do something in that case.
2014-09-11T22:47:39Z vanila: what sort of atoms?
2014-09-11T22:47:43Z vanila: I thought this was complete
2014-09-11T22:48:02Z vanila: oh like booleans, and numbersI guess?
2014-09-11T22:49:25Z pjb: vectors, strings, etc.
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2014-09-11T22:50:12Z pjb: vanila: since there is no type-of in scheme, and any implementation may add new types, it's difficult to write correct or complete code with types…
2014-09-11T22:50:21Z pjb: ports, etc.
2014-09-11T22:50:43Z vanila: oh man that sucks
2014-09-11T22:50:44Z vanila: good point
2014-09-11T22:50:50Z pjb: scheme is not introspective enough for me.
2014-09-11T22:50:55Z vanila: I should error out if it's not a pair!
2014-09-11T22:51:02Z vanila: that's a really nice improvement to my code btw, thank you
2014-09-11T22:51:09Z pjb: so ((pair? p) …) (else (error …))
2014-09-11T22:51:41Z vanila: yea
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2014-09-12T00:14:22Z vanila: What is the best setup for agile/TDD in racket?
2014-09-12T00:14:41Z vanila: I want to leverage iterative testing units for my development cycle
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2014-09-12T00:16:54Z kvda: ugh too many management keywords parsed
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2014-09-12T00:18:18Z kvda: there's also #racket
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2014-09-12T00:42:05Z theseb: kvda: is racket the friendly face of scheme/lisp?
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2014-09-12T01:00:55Z nisstyre: kvda: you'll appreciate this I think https://dis.4chan.org/read/prog/1333322848/1-40
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2014-09-12T01:03:18Z kvda: ah good collection
2014-09-12T01:03:45Z kvda: and a fellow 4chan user
2014-09-12T01:03:53Z nisstyre: well, sometimes
2014-09-12T01:03:57Z nisstyre: /prog/ is funny
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2014-09-12T01:04:08Z nisstyre: they worship scheme for some reason
2014-09-12T01:04:09Z kvda: :)
2014-09-12T01:04:10Z nisstyre: and Sussman
2014-09-12T01:04:44Z kvda: oh really? that sounds legit
2014-09-12T01:04:51Z kvda: :)
2014-09-12T01:05:18Z nisstyre: kvda: https://dis.4chan.org/read/prog/1202913500/1-40
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2014-09-12T01:06:23Z kvda: "Only one person posts in /prog/"
2014-09-12T01:06:24Z kvda: haha
2014-09-12T01:06:29Z ijp: there used to be three of them
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2014-09-12T01:06:54Z ijp: I doubt they've changed much in the years since I was last on
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2014-09-12T01:09:07Z kvda: i like how people confuse Abelson and Sussman often because of the SICP lecture vids
2014-09-12T01:09:13Z nisstyre: lmao
2014-09-12T01:09:47Z kvda: surprised I haven't seen a picture of Sussman with "Harold Abelson Assoc. Prof" caption underneath
2014-09-12T01:09:53Z nisstyre: http://youtu.be/aHk42kDwesM
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2014-09-12T01:10:55Z kvda: lol, didn't realise this was such a thing " Have you read your SICP today? "
2014-09-12T01:10:56Z kvda: haha
2014-09-12T01:11:14Z nisstyre: that gets good around 1:12
2014-09-12T01:11:55Z kvda: hahaha
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2014-09-12T01:45:16Z vanila: hello
2014-09-12T01:47:10Z P4Titan: hello
2014-09-12T01:47:52Z ijp: your call is important to us, please hold
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2014-09-12T01:59:07Z P4Titan: Hello, is a naming convention to helper functions in scheme?
2014-09-12T01:59:58Z ijp: foo* is pretty common
2014-09-12T02:00:12Z P4Titan: ok, thanks
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2014-09-12T02:46:19Z _tca: foo-aux too
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2014-09-12T09:51:32Z testje: in (lambda (s/c) ...), does s/c have a special meaning or is it a regular variable?
2014-09-12T09:53:38Z ecraven: testje: it's a variable name
2014-09-12T09:53:44Z ecraven: like call/cc for example
2014-09-12T09:55:18Z testje: ecraven: so I could change it to a or b without consequence, right?
2014-09-12T09:56:18Z ecraven: testje: if you change all other occurrences of it correctly too, then yes, definitely :)
2014-09-12T09:56:36Z ecraven: unless you have some macro that does black magic or so, but normally it should work without any problems :)
2014-09-12T09:57:16Z testje: ecraven: got it, thanks
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2014-09-12T11:17:42Z corecode_: hi
2014-09-12T11:21:01Z corecode_: wingo: you there?
2014-09-12T11:21:37Z corecode_: wingo: i tried playing around with guile-gnome, but errors in signal callbacks seemed to destroy the gtk mainloop
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2014-09-12T13:33:22Z testje: where can I find a BNF file for the scheme grammar?
2014-09-12T13:33:56Z taylanub: testje: at the end of the RnRS documents there tends to be an EBNF
2014-09-12T13:34:25Z taylanub: I don't think it's meant for machine consumption though in case that's what you wanted
2014-09-12T13:34:32Z testje: taylanub: indeed, I found this: http://people.csail.mit.edu/jaffer/r5rs_9.html
2014-09-12T13:34:44Z taylanub: testje: the latest standard is R7RS-small
2014-09-12T13:34:50Z testje: taylanub: but if it exists I'm looking for an actual BNF file
2014-09-12T13:35:13Z taylanub: then I don't know
2014-09-12T13:35:35Z taylanub: well maybe the one in the RnRS is actually machine-consumable and you could extract it from the TeX file
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2014-09-12T13:36:16Z sethalves: I would look in the source for various schemes... probably less work than extracting something machine-readable from the spec
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2014-09-12T20:36:40Z vanila: I have one macro that defines a function which gives a list of things
2014-09-12T20:37:06Z vanila: and another macro to define something, and it does a check that you implement a case for everything on that list
2014-09-12T20:37:19Z vanila: but i want that check done once at compile time, rather than every single time the function is called
2014-09-12T20:37:31Z vanila: how would that be done with scheme macros? (in racket)
2014-09-12T20:38:18Z taylanub: vanila: read up on syntax-case (procedural macros)
2014-09-12T20:39:17Z vanila: thanks for the suggestion - I did see syntax-case earlier but when I tried it I got this http://lpaste.net/110951
2014-09-12T20:40:11Z taylanub: vanila: read up on phases
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2014-09-12T20:41:10Z taylanub: Well the TL;DR is you need to get that `foo' to be defined in the compile-time environment and not (just) run-time
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2014-09-12T20:44:54Z vanila: http://lpaste.net/110952
2014-09-12T20:44:56Z vanila: this is my code
2014-09-12T20:45:20Z vanila: begin-for-syntax lets me define language for both phases
2014-09-12T20:45:38Z vanila: but i should split my syntax-rules definition of match-language into syntax-case & syntax-rules
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2014-09-12T20:48:20Z vanila: i get pattern variable cannot be used outside of a template though
2014-09-12T20:48:37Z vanila: in my syntax-rules part which tries to check coverage
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2014-09-12T22:50:00Z vanila: where can I get lots of test programs?
2014-09-12T22:50:35Z vanila: r5rs
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2014-09-13T10:24:21Z lrs_: Hey, how do i create a function that return the x-coordinate for another function that gives the result f(10,12)
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2014-09-13T10:26:07Z oleo: what is f(10,12) ?
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2014-09-13T10:27:09Z lrs_: oleo : basically my code looks like this
2014-09-13T10:28:03Z lrs_: oleo, http://pastebin.com/QtzbeQDA
2014-09-13T10:28:23Z lrs_: Before that I got some stuff that draws graphs
2014-09-13T10:28:51Z lrs_: Which looks like this
2014-09-13T10:28:52Z lrs_: http://pastebin.com/mpVfa2At
2014-09-13T10:29:30Z lrs_: And I need to create a function (X_coord (makePoint 10 12)) that gives the result 10
2014-09-13T10:29:57Z lrs_: And im supposedly have to use lists and car /cdr...
2014-09-13T10:29:59Z lrs_: Any idea?
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2014-09-13T10:43:23Z ski: lrs_ : are you supposed to use `makeGraph' and `shape', when defining `makePoint' and `X_coord' ?
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2014-09-13T10:55:40Z lrs_: ski, I think so
2014-09-13T10:55:50Z lrs_: Im supposed to draw a graph of stuff so I guess I need it
2014-09-13T10:56:06Z lrs_: But right now I need to get a selector that gets the 10 from X_coord
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2014-09-13T10:56:28Z lrs_: Which in turn gets its info from makePoint which gets its stuff from makeGraph
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2014-09-13T11:04:56Z lrs_: ski, Any ideas?
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2014-09-13T11:39:21Z ski: lrs_ : what does your current `X_coord' get you ?
2014-09-13T11:45:30Z lrs_: ski well now ive been working a bit
2014-09-13T11:45:34Z lrs_: This is what I got right now
2014-09-13T11:46:08Z lrs_: ski, http://pastebin.com/dEizqhWB
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2014-09-13T11:58:33Z ski: lrs_ : hm
2014-09-13T11:59:10Z ski: i don't think there'd be any point in quoting `x0' and `y0' there
2014-09-13T11:59:20Z ski: (read : there is no point in doing so)
2014-09-13T12:00:38Z lrs_: ski: Right, I just wrote it
2014-09-13T12:00:48Z lrs_: Because I dont know how the fuck im gonna select the prevcious stuff defined in makePoint
2014-09-13T12:00:54Z ski: `x0' and `y0' as appearing in `(lambda (x0 y0) ...)' are formal parameters, that will be bound to actual parameters, when `X_coord' is called with two actual parameter expressions like `(X_coord blah bleh)'
2014-09-13T12:00:55Z lrs_: makePoint takes x0 y0 and creates a point
2014-09-13T12:01:17Z lrs_: So how do I recall that point in X_coord
2014-09-13T12:01:24Z lrs_: Or rather, how do i pick the x point
2014-09-13T12:01:28Z lrs_: In makePoint
2014-09-13T12:01:31Z lrs_: From X_Coord
2014-09-13T12:01:34Z lrs_: Thats my problem right there
2014-09-13T12:01:37Z ski: however, quoting `x0' and `y0' will compute *symbols* (named `x0' and `y0'), which are unrelated to any values that the formal parameters are bound to
2014-09-13T12:02:11Z lrs_: ski, Yeah
2014-09-13T12:02:24Z lrs_: So how do I compute the x0 in makePoint
2014-09-13T12:02:56Z ski: well,  (shape (makeGraph 'point (...)))  will evaluate to the same thing as  (...)
2014-09-13T12:03:25Z ski: so, i think your earlier paste <http://pastebin.com/QtzbeQDA> was closer to solving the problem
2014-09-13T12:04:09Z ski: because if you want to be able to call `(X_coord (makePoint 2 3))', e.g., then `X_coord' is supposed to accept *one* formal parameter, not two
2014-09-13T12:04:49Z ski: so defining `X_coord' to be equal to something like `(lambda (punkt) ..punkt..)' seems to be closer to solving it
2014-09-13T12:05:18Z ski: so, given the definitions at that paste, what do you get if you evaluate
2014-09-13T12:05:33Z ski:   (X_coord minpunkt)
2014-09-13T12:05:40Z ski: which is basically the same as evaluating
2014-09-13T12:05:47Z ski:   (X_coord (makePoint 3 17))
2014-09-13T12:05:50Z ski: lrs_ : ?
2014-09-13T12:05:51Z fridim_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2014-09-13T12:06:25Z lrs_: ski, Right
2014-09-13T12:06:29Z lrs_: So what do you suggest I write?
2014-09-13T12:06:52Z ski: well, i was asking what you get if you evaluate the above expression, given the definitions at the indicated paste :)
2014-09-13T12:07:26Z lrs_: Oh ok
2014-09-13T12:07:33Z lrs_: I write (makePoint 1 2)
2014-09-13T12:07:54Z lrs_: And then (X_coord) right
2014-09-13T12:07:59Z ski: no
2014-09-13T12:08:06Z ski: you'd enter e.g.
2014-09-13T12:08:16Z ski:   (X_coord (makePoint 1 2))
2014-09-13T12:08:26Z ski: or, alternatively, entering
2014-09-13T12:08:38Z ski:   (define min-andra-punkt (makePoint 1 2))
2014-09-13T12:08:44Z ski: and then entering the expression
2014-09-13T12:08:51Z ski:   (X_coord min-andra-punkt)
2014-09-13T12:08:54Z ski: for evaluation
2014-09-13T12:09:43Z ski: in the first case, the point resulting from the call to `makePoint' is passed directly to `X_coord' (which here expects one actual parameter, which is what it gets)
2014-09-13T12:10:10Z ski: in the second case, the point is first given a name, and then the point is accessed by that name, to pass it to `X_coord'
2014-09-13T12:10:58Z ski: however, `(X_coord)' would attempt to pass zero actual parameters when calling `X_coord', which doesn't work, since `X_coord' isn't defined to accept zero actual parameters
2014-09-13T12:11:03Z ski: lrs_ : makes any sense ?
2014-09-13T12:11:50Z ski: rudybot: eval (define makeGraph (lambda (name shape) (cons name shape)))
2014-09-13T12:11:52Z rudybot: ski: your sandbox is ready
2014-09-13T12:11:52Z rudybot: ski: Done.
2014-09-13T12:11:55Z lrs_: ski, Gahhhhh
2014-09-13T12:12:12Z ski: rudybot: eval (define name (lambda (graph) (car graph)))
2014-09-13T12:12:12Z rudybot: ski: Done.
2014-09-13T12:12:14Z lrs_: I thought I was supposed to write X_coord but youre right
2014-09-13T12:12:23Z ski: rudybot: eval (define shape (lambda (graph) (cdr graph)))
2014-09-13T12:12:24Z rudybot: ski: Done.
2014-09-13T12:12:47Z ski: rudybot: eval (define makePoint (lambda (x0 y0) (makeGraph 'point (list x0 y0))))
2014-09-13T12:12:47Z rudybot: ski: Done.
2014-09-13T12:13:10Z ski: rudybot: eval (define X_coord (lambda (punkt) (shape punkt)))
2014-09-13T12:13:10Z rudybot: ski: Done.
2014-09-13T12:13:17Z lrs_: So what do i write to get it to pick the first one in the list?
2014-09-13T12:13:20Z ski: rudybot: eval (define minpunkt (makePoint 3 17))
2014-09-13T12:13:20Z rudybot: ski: Done.
2014-09-13T12:13:31Z ski: rudybot: eval (X_coord minpunkt)
2014-09-13T12:13:31Z rudybot: ski: ; Value: '(3 17)
2014-09-13T12:13:39Z ski: rudybot: eval (X_coord (makePoint 3 17))
2014-09-13T12:13:39Z rudybot: ski: ; Value: '(3 17)
2014-09-13T12:13:47Z ski: do you see ?
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2014-09-13T12:21:41Z lrs_: ski, Woho!
2014-09-13T12:21:44Z lrs_: Made it
2014-09-13T12:21:49Z ski: ok ?
2014-09-13T12:22:12Z lrs_: ski,  http://pastebin.com/Hptjptve
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2014-09-13T12:22:49Z ski: ok, but it would probably be better if you used `shape' in the definition of `X_coord'
2014-09-13T12:23:02Z lrs_: Why is that?
2014-09-13T12:23:06Z ski: since `makeGraph' is supposed to be used together with `shape' (and `name')
2014-09-13T12:23:26Z lrs_: So lambda (shape) (cadr shape ) ?
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2014-09-13T12:23:52Z ski: that way, if someone ever decides to change the representation of a graph, they will only have to change `makeGraph' and `shape' and `name'
2014-09-13T12:24:27Z ski: however, with your current definition of `X_coord', it would also have to be adapted if the representation of a "graph" was changed
2014-09-13T12:24:50Z lrs_: So it would be less parameters to change basically
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2014-09-13T12:25:22Z ski: lrs_ : no, naming `X_coord's formal parameter `shape' will have nothing to do with the procedure named `shape'
2014-09-13T12:25:40Z lrs_: Hmmm
2014-09-13T12:25:41Z ski: lrs_ : yes, change would be more localized, which is good
2014-09-13T12:25:53Z lrs_: From what I thought
2014-09-13T12:25:56Z ski: consider again your earlier definition of `X_coord' :
2014-09-13T12:26:00Z lrs_: I thought all parameters were localized
2014-09-13T12:26:04Z ski:   (define X_coord
2014-09-13T12:26:09Z lrs_: So lets say I use shape in the defiuniton of the circle drawing stuff
2014-09-13T12:26:11Z ski:     (lambda (punkt)
2014-09-13T12:26:17Z ski:       (shape punkt)))
2014-09-13T12:26:27Z lrs_: It doesnt change the shape i write in that function, since that function is localized
2014-09-13T12:26:28Z ski: so, what was missing from this definition ?
2014-09-13T12:26:49Z lrs_: name?
2014-09-13T12:27:12Z ski: well, a point is represented as a graph with `point' as name, if we look at `makePoint'
2014-09-13T12:27:29Z ski: and with a list containing the two coordinates as "shape" of that graph
2014-09-13T12:27:54Z ski: so, `(shape punkt)', if `punkt' is a point, will then give back that list of the two coordinates
2014-09-13T12:28:02Z ski: that is why the example
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2014-09-13T12:28:06Z ski: rudybot: eval (X_coord (makePoint 3 17))
2014-09-13T12:28:07Z rudybot: ski: ; Value: '(3 17)
2014-09-13T12:28:21Z ski: returned the *list* containing `3' and `17'
2014-09-13T12:28:41Z ski: now, what do you *want* this call to evaluate to ?
2014-09-13T12:29:22Z ski: (you can forget about the procedure `name' for the time being. it was defined in your paste <http://pastebin.com/mpVfa2At>)
2014-09-13T12:30:57Z lrs_: I get the list stuff
2014-09-13T12:31:28Z ski: ok
2014-09-13T12:31:36Z ski: so, can you answer my question ?
2014-09-13T12:31:44Z lrs_: (shape punkt) would mean the box where the shape is and then write out the two x,y or something?
2014-09-13T12:32:01Z lrs_: I have trouble understanding your question to be honest
2014-09-13T12:32:10Z ski: well, what is a call to `X_coord' *supposed* to yield ?
2014-09-13T12:32:38Z ski: with the definition i fed rudybot above, it currently yields a list containing the abscissa and the ordinate
2014-09-13T12:32:55Z ski: however, that's not what it is *intended* to yield
2014-09-13T12:32:57Z lrs_: What is X_coord defined as right now
2014-09-13T12:33:12Z ski:   (define X_coord (lambda (punkt) (shape punkt)))
2014-09-13T12:33:21Z ski: from your <http://pastebin.com/QtzbeQDA> paste
2014-09-13T12:34:07Z lrs_: I cant answer that question because Im not sure I get the shape stuff
2014-09-13T12:34:36Z ski: i'm not asking about the shape stuff, currently
2014-09-13T12:34:46Z ski: i'm merely asking what you'd like
2014-09-13T12:34:50Z ski:   (X_coord (makePoint 3 17))
2014-09-13T12:34:53Z ski: to evaluate to
2014-09-13T12:35:10Z lrs_: What Id like it to?
2014-09-13T12:35:14Z ski: yes
2014-09-13T12:35:23Z lrs_: What I think it will become or what it will become of that definition?
2014-09-13T12:35:40Z ski: you can't write a program that does what you want, unless you determine what it is you in fact want
2014-09-13T12:35:47Z ski: lrs_ : neither
2014-09-13T12:36:08Z ski: what you *want* it to evaluate to, in the finished/correct final version of the program
2014-09-13T12:36:21Z lrs_: Well I want it to write out 3
2014-09-13T12:36:25Z ski: right
2014-09-13T12:36:38Z ski: and currently it gives back a list containing `3' and `17'
2014-09-13T12:36:45Z ski: so, how to bridge the gap there ?
2014-09-13T12:36:53Z lrs_: "Bridge the gap" ?
2014-09-13T12:37:10Z ski: what should you change in the definition of `X_coord' to make that call evaluate to `3' instead ?
2014-09-13T12:37:23Z lrs_: (cadr shape)
2014-09-13T12:37:38Z ski: how to get from : a list containing `3' and `17'; to : the number `3' ?
2014-09-13T12:37:58Z ski: well, we could try `cadr'
2014-09-13T12:38:07Z ski: rudybot: eval (cadr (list 3 17))
2014-09-13T12:38:07Z rudybot: ski: ; Value: 17
2014-09-13T12:38:23Z ski: apparently that gave you the other coordinate
2014-09-13T12:38:29Z lrs_: Not for me
2014-09-13T12:38:45Z ski: then you're not answering the question i asked
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2014-09-13T12:38:55Z lrs_: (define makePoint
2014-09-13T12:38:55Z lrs_:   (lambda (x0 y0)
2014-09-13T12:38:55Z lrs_:     (makeGraph 'point (list x0 y0))))
2014-09-13T12:38:55Z lrs_: (define X_coord
2014-09-13T12:38:55Z lrs_:  (lambda (shape)
2014-09-13T12:38:55Z lrs_:     (cadr shape)))
2014-09-13T12:39:11Z lrs_: Hmm? What question?
2014-09-13T12:39:13Z ski: as i said above, while that works, it is brittle
2014-09-13T12:39:53Z ski: because it doesn't use the `shape' procedure as defined at <http://pastebin.com/QtzbeQDA> to access the component of your "graph"
2014-09-13T12:40:34Z ski: (the fact that you happened to give the name `shape' to the formal parameter in `X_coord' is besides the point. it is unrelated)
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2014-09-13T12:41:11Z ski: so, the question was how to (correctly) define `X_coord' *using* the `shape' defined at <http://pastebin.com/QtzbeQDA>
2014-09-13T12:41:33Z ski: <lrs_> Hmm? What question?
2014-09-13T12:41:37Z ski: <ski> what should you change in the definition of `X_coord' to make that call evaluate to `3' instead ?
2014-09-13T12:41:43Z ski: that ^ question
2014-09-13T12:41:57Z ski: and the definition of `X_coord' that i was talking about changing was :
2014-09-13T12:42:03Z ski:   (define X_coord
2014-09-13T12:42:06Z ski:     (lambda (punkt)
2014-09-13T12:42:09Z ski:       (shape punkt)))
2014-09-13T12:42:23Z ski: (as defined at <http://pastebin.com/QtzbeQDA>)
2014-09-13T12:42:23Z lrs_: I cant answer that
2014-09-13T12:42:40Z lrs_: I see it as cadr picks the first stuff in the list makePoint
2014-09-13T12:42:53Z ski: well, the placement of `shape' in that definition makes
2014-09-13T12:42:57Z ski:   (X_coord (makePoint 3 17))
2014-09-13T12:43:09Z ski: currently evaluate to a list containing `3' and `17'
2014-09-13T12:43:21Z ski: while what you *want* is for it to evaluate to `3'
2014-09-13T12:43:27Z ski: lrs_ : do you agree with this ?
2014-09-13T12:43:34Z lrs_: Yes
2014-09-13T12:43:59Z ski: so, what is left then, is the question of how to extract the number `3' out of a list containing `3' and `17' (in that order)
2014-09-13T12:44:28Z lrs_: Correct
2014-09-13T12:44:28Z ski: if you can insert such an auxilary extraction into the definition of `X_coord', then the above `X_coord' call should evaluate to `3'
2014-09-13T12:44:33Z ski: agree ?
2014-09-13T12:44:36Z lrs_: YEs
2014-09-13T12:44:42Z ski: so, how to do it ?
2014-09-13T12:44:50Z lrs_: I dont know
2014-09-13T12:45:25Z ski: consider when `punkt' is (the value of evaluating) `(makePoint 3 17)' (because we call `(X_coord (makePoint 3 17)))
2014-09-13T12:45:34Z ski: then the call
2014-09-13T12:45:41Z ski:   (X_coord (makePoint 3 17))
2014-09-13T12:45:55Z ski: can be simplified into the body of the definition of `X_coord', i.e.
2014-09-13T12:45:59Z ski:   (shape punkt)
2014-09-13T12:46:24Z ski: but with `punkt' replaced by its value, i.e. replaced by (the value of) `(makePoint 3 17)'
2014-09-13T12:46:27Z ski: so
2014-09-13T12:46:29Z ski:   (X_coord (makePoint 3 17))
2014-09-13T12:46:32Z ski: can be simplified to
2014-09-13T12:46:37Z ski:   (shape (makePoint 3 17))
2014-09-13T12:46:42Z ski: lrs_ : agree, so far ?
2014-09-13T12:47:13Z lrs_: Yes
2014-09-13T12:47:32Z ski: (i'm talking here about "manually" evaluating an expression, doing something similar to what the computer would do invisibly, before printing the final result)
2014-09-13T12:47:43Z ski: now, what about the call to `makePoint' here ?
2014-09-13T12:48:05Z lrs_: What call?
2014-09-13T12:48:16Z lrs_: Its shape?
2014-09-13T12:48:18Z lrs_: Or?
2014-09-13T12:48:32Z ski: the `(makePoint 3 17)' call, which is a subexpression of the whole current `(shape (makePoint 3 17))' expression
2014-09-13T12:48:35Z lrs_: I get that X_cord is selecting something
2014-09-13T12:48:45Z ski: well, we have to replace the call to `makePoint' by the body of its definition
2014-09-13T12:48:48Z ski: iow
2014-09-13T12:48:52Z ski:   (shape (makePoint 3 17))
2014-09-13T12:48:55Z ski: can be simplified to
2014-09-13T12:49:07Z ski:   (shape (makeGraph 'point (list x0 y0)))
2014-09-13T12:49:31Z ski: except that the formal parameters `x0' and `y0' should be replaced by the actual parameters `3' and `17' in the `makePoint' call
2014-09-13T12:49:35Z ski: iow
2014-09-13T12:49:37Z ski:   (shape (makePoint 3 17))
2014-09-13T12:49:41Z ski: will get simplified to
2014-09-13T12:49:49Z ski:   (shape (makeGraph 'point (list 3 17)))
2014-09-13T12:49:52Z ski: agree ?
2014-09-13T12:49:52Z lrs_: Right
2014-09-13T12:50:21Z ski: now, we *could* go on in a similar fashion, pondering how `makeGraph' and `shape' were defined
2014-09-13T12:50:28Z ski: but i'm not going to do so
2014-09-13T12:50:32Z ski: the point is that
2014-09-13T12:51:00Z ski:   (shape (makeGraph <some-name> <some-shape>))
2014-09-13T12:51:07Z ski: will *always* evaluate to
2014-09-13T12:51:12Z ski:   <some-shape>
2014-09-13T12:51:36Z ski: (where `<some-name>' and `<some-shape>' are two arbitrary expressions)
2014-09-13T12:51:48Z ski: just because of how `makeGraph' and `shape' were defined
2014-09-13T12:51:53Z lrs_: Noted
2014-09-13T12:52:16Z ski: (if you really want to, you can *check* this, by looking at the definition of `makeGraph' and `shape' -- this might be a good exercise)
2014-09-13T12:52:23Z ski: anyway
2014-09-13T12:52:55Z lrs_: So what do you suggest i replace cadr with?
2014-09-13T12:53:41Z ski: if `(shape (makeGraph <some-name> <some-shape>))' would sometimes not evaluate to `<some-shape>', then there would have to be something wrong with the definition of `makeGraph' and `shape', and they'd have to be fixed. because this *equality* between these two expressions is something we *expect* to have
2014-09-13T12:53:59Z ski: the point of all this is that we can continue the above simplification process
2014-09-13T12:54:15Z ski: let me repeat it (briefly) again from the start :
2014-09-13T12:54:24Z ski:   (X_coord (makePoint 3 17))
2014-09-13T12:54:27Z ski: simplifies to
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2014-09-13T12:54:32Z ski:   (shape (makePoint 3 17))
2014-09-13T12:54:39Z ski: simplifies to
2014-09-13T12:54:43Z ski:   (shape (makeGraph 'point (list 3 17)))
2014-09-13T12:54:52Z lrs_: Yup
2014-09-13T12:55:10Z ski: and at this point, because of the above relationship between `makeGraph' and `shape', this ought to simplify to just
2014-09-13T12:55:17Z ski:   (list 3 17)
2014-09-13T12:55:53Z ski: now, your task is to figure out what to *wrap* this expression in, to make the final answer become the desired one, namely `3'
2014-09-13T12:56:00Z ski: lrs_ : do you understand ?
2014-09-13T12:56:12Z ski: your suggestion of using `cadr' doesn't work because
2014-09-13T12:56:22Z ski:   (cadr (list 3 17))
2014-09-13T12:56:34Z ski: doesn't simplify to `3', it simplifies to `17'
2014-09-13T12:56:49Z ski: so, therefore that must not be the right wrapping
2014-09-13T12:56:58Z ski: lrs_ : so, what could the right wrapping be ?
2014-09-13T12:56:59Z lrs_: It does for me :|
2014-09-13T12:57:24Z lrs_:  (shape (makeGraph 'point (list 3 ))) ?
2014-09-13T12:57:25Z ski: are you saying that when you evaluates the expression
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2014-09-13T12:57:34Z ski:   (cadr (list 3 17))
2014-09-13T12:57:40Z ski: it evaluates to `3' ?
2014-09-13T12:57:57Z lrs_: Yes
2014-09-13T12:58:16Z ski: then there must be something wrong with your Scheme system
2014-09-13T12:58:23Z ski: rudybot: eval (cadr (list 3 17))
2014-09-13T12:58:24Z rudybot: ski: ; Value: 17
2014-09-13T12:58:34Z lrs_: Well, do you have sourcefile i gave you?
2014-09-13T12:58:39Z ski: it evaluates to `17', in any sane Scheme system
2014-09-13T12:58:42Z lrs_: Write it out how youd want it to look like
2014-09-13T12:58:43Z ski: lrs_ : it doesn't matter
2014-09-13T12:59:01Z ski: the expression `(cadr (list 3 17))' doesn't mention any identifiers defined in any your pastes
2014-09-13T12:59:10Z lrs_: (define X_coord
2014-09-13T12:59:10Z lrs_:  (lambda (shape)
2014-09-13T12:59:11Z lrs_:     (cadr shape)))
2014-09-13T12:59:12Z ski: `cadr' and `list' are standard Scheme procedures
2014-09-13T12:59:23Z lrs_: > (X_coord(makePoint 1 2))
2014-09-13T12:59:28Z lrs_: 1
2014-09-13T12:59:33Z ski: i'm not talking about `X_coord', i'm talking about the expression `(cadr (list 3 17))', nothing else
2014-09-13T12:59:35Z lrs_: Before that (define makePoint
2014-09-13T12:59:35Z lrs_:   (lambda (x0 y0)
2014-09-13T12:59:35Z lrs_:     (makeGraph 'point (list x0 y0))))
2014-09-13T12:59:58Z lrs_: That gives me 17
2014-09-13T13:00:13Z ski: i'm talking about neither `X_coord' nor `makePoint'
2014-09-13T13:01:20Z ski: (btw, if it would help with your comprehension, i could switch to talking swedish ..)
2014-09-13T13:01:59Z ski plirar stint på lrs_
2014-09-13T13:03:38Z lrs_: Aha
2014-09-13T13:04:11Z lrs_: Gärna
2014-09-13T13:05:19Z ski: iaf, ovan visade jag vad uttrycket `(X_coord (makePoint 3 17))' för *närvarande* evalueras till
2014-09-13T13:05:44Z ski: nämligen en lista innehållande de två talen `3' och `17'
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2014-09-13T13:06:37Z ski: men eftersom du skulle vilja att uttrycket evaluerade till abskissan `3' här, så *fattas* det något i definitionen av `X_coord'
2014-09-13T13:07:01Z lrs_: Vad fattas?
2014-09-13T13:07:28Z ski: detta något måste vara ett stycke kod som givet a lista innehållande de två talen `3' och `17' extraherar abskissan `3'
2014-09-13T13:08:02Z lrs_: Yes
2014-09-13T13:08:35Z ski: så, jag frågade hur man ska bära sig åt för att få svaret `3', givet uttrycket `(list 3 17)' (vilket är vad `(X_coord (makePoint 3 17))' för *närvarande* evalueras till)
2014-09-13T13:08:52Z ski: vi såg att förslaget
2014-09-13T13:08:59Z ski:   (cadr (list 3 17))
2014-09-13T13:09:14Z ski: är fel, eftersom detta uttryck evalueras till `17', inte `3'
2014-09-13T13:09:34Z ski: så, din uppgift här är att fylla i punkterna i
2014-09-13T13:09:39Z ski:   ..(list 3 17)..
2014-09-13T13:09:47Z ski: så att resultatet blir det önskade
2014-09-13T13:09:52Z ski: okej ?
2014-09-13T13:10:16Z lrs_: Vet inte vilket kommando jag ska använda för detta
2014-09-13T13:10:43Z lrs_: (car(list 3 17))
2014-09-13T13:10:44Z lrs_: ??
2014-09-13T13:10:52Z ski: låt oss pröva
2014-09-13T13:10:59Z ski: rudybot: eval (car(list 3 17))
2014-09-13T13:10:59Z rudybot: ski: ; Value: 3
2014-09-13T13:11:06Z oleo: ja
2014-09-13T13:11:06Z ski: verkar funka helt ok :)
2014-09-13T13:11:13Z ski: ok
2014-09-13T13:11:33Z ski: låt mig sammanfatta förenklingen igen
2014-09-13T13:11:41Z lrs_: Testade det förut, men jag antog att du försökte göra något slags anrop i functionen X_coord som tog ut x0 ur definitionen   (makeGraph 'point (list x0 y0))))
2014-09-13T13:11:43Z lrs_: Typ
2014-09-13T13:11:46Z ski:        (X_coord (makePoint 3 17))
2014-09-13T13:11:57Z oleo: heh
2014-09-13T13:12:01Z ski:   =?=  (shape (makePoint 3 17))
2014-09-13T13:12:13Z lrs_: Men skriver jag in car i min definition för X_coord
2014-09-13T13:12:15Z ski:    =   (shape (makeGraph 'point (list 3 17)))
2014-09-13T13:12:15Z lrs_: Då blir det
2014-09-13T13:12:25Z ski:    =   (list 3 17)
2014-09-13T13:12:36Z lrs_: point
2014-09-13T13:12:39Z lrs_: Resultatet blir point
2014-09-13T13:12:42Z lrs_: Av någon anledning
2014-09-13T13:13:44Z ski: lrs_ : du skall inte ersätta `shape' med någonting annat i definitionen av `X_coord', du behöver *lägga* *till* lite kod. nämligen *runt* anropet till `shape'
2014-09-13T13:14:31Z ski: (varför det blidde just `point' ovan är inte så intressant, kanske. om du är nyfiken kan det redas ut, dock)
2014-09-13T13:14:44Z ski: lrs_ : iaf
2014-09-13T13:14:59Z lrs_: Med trace?
2014-09-13T13:15:15Z ski: kanske det
2014-09-13T13:15:34Z ski: (eller bara genom rent förnuftsresonemang)
2014-09-13T13:16:15Z ski: lrs_ : du är med på förenklingen ovan, ja ?
2014-09-13T13:16:22Z lrs_: Ja
2014-09-13T13:16:37Z lrs_: Förenkling skulle jag väl inte kalla det, snarare en utveckling va?
2014-09-13T13:16:57Z lrs_: Expansion
2014-09-13T13:16:58Z ski: jaja, samma sak ;)
2014-09-13T13:17:40Z ski: det är i riktning mot enklaste form, även om mellanliggande former ibland kan se mer komplicerade ut
2014-09-13T13:18:06Z ski: eller, kanske ska man säga "mest primitiv form", istället för "enklaste form"
2014-09-13T13:18:19Z ski: (det är kanske inte så viktigt, här)
2014-09-13T13:18:51Z ski: vi vill att `(X_coord (makePoint 3 17))' ska förenklas till `(car (list 3 17))' (som kommer att förenklas till det önskade svaret `3') istället för till `(list 3 17)'
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2014-09-13T13:19:19Z lrs_: Exakt
2014-09-13T13:19:27Z lrs_: Av någon anledning blir dock car point
2014-09-13T13:19:38Z lrs_: VIlket antagligen har att göra med att den är definierad som det första i listan eller något?
2014-09-13T13:19:48Z ski: so, om vi följer utvecklingen/förenklingen/expansionen ovan *baklänges*, samt smäller på `(car ...)' runt varje uttryck, får vi
2014-09-13T13:19:58Z ski:       (car (list 3 17))
2014-09-13T13:20:05Z ski:   =   (car (shape (makeGraph 'point (list 3 17))))
2014-09-13T13:20:27Z ski:   =   (car (shape (makePoint 3 17)))
2014-09-13T13:20:41Z ski:  ...
2014-09-13T13:20:51Z ski:   =   (X_coord (makePoint 3 17))
2014-09-13T13:21:11Z ski: ok ?
2014-09-13T13:21:22Z lrs_: Ok
2014-09-13T13:21:54Z ski: (jag omgav dock inte det första/sista uttrycket (anropet till `X_coord') med ett `car'-anrop)
2014-09-13T13:22:06Z ski: så, vi hade definitionen
2014-09-13T13:22:12Z ski:   (define X_coord
2014-09-13T13:22:17Z ski:     (lambda (punkt)
2014-09-13T13:22:25Z ski:       (shape punkt)))
2014-09-13T13:22:34Z ski: men, om vi ändrar detta till
2014-09-13T13:22:36Z ski:   (define X_coord
2014-09-13T13:22:38Z ski:     (lambda (punkt)
2014-09-13T13:22:43Z ski:       (car (shape punkt))))
2014-09-13T13:22:59Z ski: så kommer vi att få förenkligssteget
2014-09-13T13:23:07Z ski:      (X_coord (makePoint 3 17))
2014-09-13T13:23:13Z ski:   =  (car (shape (makePoint 3 17)))
2014-09-13T13:23:20Z ski: lrs_ : kan du se detta ?
2014-09-13T13:23:35Z lrs_: Ja
2014-09-13T13:23:55Z ski: förresten, ett kortare sätt att definiera samma `X_coord' är att säga
2014-09-13T13:24:02Z ski:   (define (X_coord punkt)
2014-09-13T13:24:11Z ski:     (car (shape punkt)))
2014-09-13T13:24:35Z ski: man ser kanske tydligare här varför vi får den önskade utvecklingen
2014-09-13T13:24:47Z lrs_: Nu byter du ut shape mot punkt
2014-09-13T13:24:57Z ski: nej
2014-09-13T13:25:28Z ski: när vi utvecklar
2014-09-13T13:25:29Z ski:   (X_coord (makePoint 3 17))
2014-09-13T13:25:31Z lrs_: Vad är lambda?
2014-09-13T13:25:36Z lrs_: I X_coord?
2014-09-13T13:25:50Z taylanub: .oO( What the heck... )
2014-09-13T13:26:18Z ski: så tar vi kroppen till `X_coord' (dvs det som är "innanför" `(lambda (punkt) ..punkt..)', dvs uttrycket `..punkt..')
2014-09-13T13:26:33Z ski: kroppen är här
2014-09-13T13:26:39Z ski:   (car (shape punkt))
2014-09-13T13:27:12Z lrs_: Funkar inte
2014-09-13T13:27:28Z ski: och så byter vi ut den formella parametern `punkt' (från `lambda (punkt)') med den aktuella parametern `(makePoint 3 17)' (från `(X_coord (makePoint 3 17))')
2014-09-13T13:27:39Z ski: d.v.s.
2014-09-13T13:27:49Z ski:   (X_coord (makePoint 3 17))
2014-09-13T13:27:54Z ski: utvecklas till
2014-09-13T13:28:05Z ski:   (car (shape (makePoint 3 17)))
2014-09-13T13:28:09Z lrs_: ski, http://pastebin.com/J88xhVwa
2014-09-13T13:28:09Z ski: som utvecklas till
2014-09-13T13:28:18Z lrs_: Där har du hela filen.. Tror du måste se den för att fatta
2014-09-13T13:28:21Z ski:   (car (shape (makeGraph 'point (list 3 17))))
2014-09-13T13:28:32Z ski: som kan förenklas till
2014-09-13T13:28:35Z lrs_: Det jag har gjort är längst ner
2014-09-13T13:28:40Z ski:   (car (list 3 17))
2014-09-13T13:28:59Z ski: som vi vet förenklas till det önskade svaret
2014-09-13T13:29:00Z ski:   3
2014-09-13T13:29:49Z ski: lrs_ : heh, du har en annan definition of `X_coord' där en de två jag använde ovan
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2014-09-13T13:29:59Z ski: s/en de/än de/
2014-09-13T13:31:06Z ski: jag utgick från definitionen av `X_coord' i <http://pastebin.com/QtzbeQDA> (eftersom den var närmast en korrekt lösning på problemet)
2014-09-13T13:31:19Z lrs_: Mjo
2014-09-13T13:31:25Z lrs_: Misstänkte det
2014-09-13T13:31:38Z lrs_: Det är definitonen av shape längst uppe i koden som gör något
2014-09-13T13:31:46Z lrs_: OCh är anledningen till varför jag måste använda cadr
2014-09-13T13:31:53Z ski: (jag har bara sagt det två-tre gånger, jag får nog upprepa det mera ;)
2014-09-13T13:32:48Z ski: ja, jag vet hur `shape' är definierad
2014-09-13T13:34:31Z ski: det enda som ska spela någon roll här, angående `shape' är att `(shape (makeGraph <some-name> <some-shape>))' alltid kommer att evaluera till samma värde som `<some-shape>', för *alla* uttryck man kan sätta i stället för `<some-name>' och `<some-shape>'
2014-09-13T13:35:00Z lrs_: Exakt
2014-09-13T13:35:12Z lrs_: Jag skrev "noted" så jag skrev upp detta
2014-09-13T13:35:27Z ski: kort sagt, `shape' är en "extraherare" (extractor/selector/accessor/projection) för `makeGraph'
2014-09-13T13:35:38Z lrs_: Hela mitt problem i grund och botten var väl att jag inte riktigt fattade hur man ropade upp den enskila <some-name> utifrån x-cord
2014-09-13T13:35:52Z lrs_: Yes
2014-09-13T13:36:28Z lrs_: Men är cadr correct sätt att lösa det på menar du?
2014-09-13T13:36:35Z ski: med `shape' kan du ropa fram `(list x0 y0)'-delen ur ett värde skapat med `(makePoint x0 y0)'
2014-09-13T13:37:02Z ski: med du behöver sen ytterligare ropa fram `x0'-delen ur den lista
2014-09-13T13:37:05Z ski: listan
2014-09-13T13:37:20Z ski: vilket är varför du behöver `car' också
2014-09-13T13:37:53Z lrs_: men car shape ger mig
2014-09-13T13:37:55Z ski: så, `(shape (makePoint x0 y0))' kommer alltid att evaluerat till samma sak som `(list x0 y0)'
2014-09-13T13:38:13Z ski: och `(car (shape (makePoint x0 y0)))' kommer alltid att evaluerat till samma sak som `(car (list x0 y0))', dvs till samma sak som `x0'
2014-09-13T13:39:18Z ski: så, om `punkt' är vilket värde som hellst skapat genom ett anrop som `(makePoint x0 y0)', så kommer `(car (shape punkt))' att evaluera till `x0'
2014-09-13T13:39:54Z lrs_:  (car (shape punkt))))
2014-09-13T13:39:54Z lrs_:  ?
2014-09-13T13:39:57Z ski: rudybot: eval (define exempel-punkt (makePoint 123 4567))
2014-09-13T13:39:57Z rudybot: ski: Done.
2014-09-13T13:40:06Z lrs_: (define X_coord  (lambda (shape)     (car (shape punkt))))
2014-09-13T13:40:10Z lrs_: Ger mig undefined
2014-09-13T13:40:10Z ski: rudybot: eval (car (shape exempel-punkt))
2014-09-13T13:40:10Z rudybot: ski: ; Value: 123
2014-09-13T13:40:21Z ski: rudybot: eval (define X_coord  (lambda (shape)     (car (shape punkt))))
2014-09-13T13:40:22Z rudybot: ski: Done.
2014-09-13T13:40:32Z ski: rudybot: eval (X_coord exempel-punkt)
2014-09-13T13:40:32Z rudybot: ski: error: punkt: undefined; <NEWLINE>  cannot reference an identifier before its definition <NEWLINE>   in module: 'program
2014-09-13T13:40:44Z ski: hrm
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2014-09-13T13:41:08Z ski: åh, just det ja
2014-09-13T13:41:22Z ski: du sa `(lambda (shape) ...)'
2014-09-13T13:41:31Z ski: `shape' är fel där
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2014-09-13T13:42:20Z ski: du ska inom parantesen efter `lambda' ange de (lokala) namn du vill ge ("döpa") dina formella parametrar till
2014-09-13T13:43:09Z ski: eftersom det är meningen att man ska skicka en punkt till `X_coord' så verkar det väl rimligt att kalla den `punkt' eller `en-punkt' eller `punkten' eller nåt sånt, håller du inte med ?
2014-09-13T13:44:05Z lrs_: Vart någonstans?
2014-09-13T13:44:19Z ski: inom parentesen efter `lambda'
2014-09-13T13:44:24Z lrs_: Längst ner?
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2014-09-13T13:44:35Z ski: där man anger de namn man vill "döpa" sina parametrar till
2014-09-13T13:45:06Z ski: <lrs_> (define X_coord  (lambda (shape)     (car (shape punkt))))
2014-09-13T13:45:07Z ski:                                  ^^^^^
2014-09-13T13:45:09Z ski: där
2014-09-13T13:46:42Z ski: där borde det inte stå `shape', eftersom värdena som vi förväntar oss ska skickas som parametrar till `X_coord' ska vara punkter, inte former ("shape"s)
2014-09-13T13:47:59Z lrs_: Exakt
2014-09-13T13:48:06Z lrs_: Men varför använder jag cadr?
2014-09-13T13:49:21Z ski har ingen aning ;)
2014-09-13T13:50:21Z ski: jag har försökt säga ett tag att du inte vill använda `cadr' här (utan istället `car'), men kanske vill du annorlunda .. :)
2014-09-13T13:50:52Z lrs_: Jo
2014-09-13T13:50:58Z lrs_: Men när jag använder car så får jag "point"
2014-09-13T13:51:04Z lrs_: Istället för 1
2014-09-13T13:51:10Z lrs_: När listan är 1 2
2014-09-13T13:51:39Z ski: därför att du inte använder `shape' som du ska :)
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2014-09-13T13:52:17Z ski har en vag déjà-vu-känsla, här ..
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2014-09-13T19:48:02Z theseb: to implement a c compiler in scheme you need to simulate memory with a set of variables that changed often..would that be possible/workable?
2014-09-13T19:49:08Z ARM9: sure
2014-09-13T19:50:02Z theseb: ARM9: you'd definitely need nonbasic scheme stuff like arrays to do it right
2014-09-13T19:50:48Z Riastradh: Vectors are pretty basic in Scheme.
2014-09-13T19:51:22Z ARM9: theseb what makes you say that?
2014-09-13T19:51:57Z theseb: ARM9: i'm thinking of how to implement in my little half baked scheme implementation
2014-09-13T19:52:30Z theseb: i don't have arrays/vectors implemented
2014-09-13T19:53:22Z vanila: theseb, A scheme to c compiler?
2014-09-13T19:53:26Z ARM9: I suppose that depends on your idea of basic
2014-09-13T19:53:40Z ARM9: no I think he wants to write a C compiler in scheme
2014-09-13T19:53:45Z theseb: right
2014-09-13T19:54:34Z Riastradh: C to Scheme?  C to Python?  C to PDP-10 assembly?  C to Unlambda?
2014-09-13T19:54:36Z theseb: vanila: i had this beautiful idea that compilers are just programs that convert all other languages to lisp...python -> lisp is obviously doable....so it got me thinking if c -> scheme woudl work
2014-09-13T19:55:05Z theseb: vanila: i know that isn't literally true..but it "sort of" is
2014-09-13T19:55:10Z vanila: hmmmm
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2014-09-13T19:55:27Z vanila: you could use boxes for pointers
2014-09-13T19:55:53Z vanila: im not sure how you would model malloc and free though
2014-09-13T19:56:06Z vanila: you might have to implement your own heap
2014-09-13T19:56:58Z theseb: vanila: malloc just means you need to define more variables to represent more memory
2014-09-13T19:57:14Z ARM9: oh, c to scheme. Have you looked at llvm?
2014-09-13T19:57:21Z theseb: vanila: free would be a little harder....in a rough draft you could just not destroy anything
2014-09-13T19:57:30Z theseb: ARM9: no
2014-09-13T19:57:38Z ARM9: you could try clang -> llvm -> scheme, you'd be getting the compilers and bytecode for free
2014-09-13T19:57:43Z vanila: by the way im defining "c-expr" a s-expression syntax for writing C code
2014-09-13T19:58:18Z vanila: so if you wrote an interpreter for c-exprs the schemeto c compiler would only need to take C code parse it and change the brackets to ()'s
2014-09-13T19:58:38Z ARM9: emscripten uses llvm and clang to compile C into javascript. the way they implement malloc etc. is just making an array that represents the heap
2014-09-13T19:59:37Z vanila: it might be easier to write a trival translation from one syntax to another, then an interpreter
2014-09-13T19:59:39Z vanila: than a compiler
2014-09-13T19:59:43Z vanila: just a though
2014-09-13T19:59:44Z vanila: t*
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2014-09-13T20:03:08Z vanila: theseb, do you have a repo or something i can watch this code be written?
2014-09-13T20:04:12Z theseb: vanila: not yet :)\
2014-09-13T20:04:22Z vanila: ok its interesting though
2014-09-13T20:04:27Z theseb: glad you like it
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2014-09-13T20:05:22Z theseb: vanila: i was first going to do a partial proof of concept for python since enought people have told me that python is just "lisp w/o the parens"
2014-09-13T20:05:47Z vanila: just use lisp its better :)
2014-09-13T20:06:18Z ARM9: python is lisp without the parens? what are they smoking and how do I get in on it
2014-09-13T20:09:07Z theseb: lol
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2014-09-13T20:09:49Z theseb: before someone says...but "python has XYZ that isn't so easy in scheme"...i meant most of core of python can be done in lisp
2014-09-13T20:10:15Z theseb: sometimes people make comments about the core/essence of a lang that doesnt' apply to the full blown spec
2014-09-13T20:10:24Z vanila: that's fair enough i m just biased
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2014-09-13T20:10:57Z theseb: e.g...."Scheme is easy to implement" is ONLY true for most of scheme...if you insist on entire R5RS spec w/continuations bolted on then it ain't so true any more..
2014-09-13T20:10:59Z theseb: see the diff?
2014-09-13T20:11:35Z Riastradh: Bolting continuations on, rather than treating them as the essence, is rather missing the point.
2014-09-13T20:13:03Z vanila: I am finding scheme hard to implement
2014-09-13T20:13:21Z vanila: especially delimited continuations
2014-09-13T20:13:34Z vanila: call/cc is easy to implement if you do CPS
2014-09-13T20:13:52Z theseb: Riastradh: wait...imho the essence of scheme is a simple grammar built from sexprs....to me everything else is just so much extra features
2014-09-13T20:14:18Z Riastradh: Read the original paper, then.  First-class continuations are very much at the essence of Scheme and have been from the beginning.
2014-09-13T20:14:19Z vanila: an important thing to me is lexical schope
2014-09-13T20:14:22Z vanila: scope*
2014-09-13T20:14:25Z theseb: Riastradh: how do you view the soul of scheme if you include call/cc?
2014-09-13T20:14:49Z vanila: Riastradh, what is the original paper? RABBIT?
2014-09-13T20:15:15Z Riastradh: No, see <http://library.readscheme.org/page1.html> (first one).
2014-09-13T20:15:45Z vanila: thanks
2014-09-13T20:16:05Z theseb: Riastradh: oh heh..when i think of the original papers...i tend to go back to McCarthy's original work
2014-09-13T20:16:21Z Riastradh: That's not Scheme.
2014-09-13T20:17:47Z theseb: Riastradh: there's 2 big parts of the Scheme project......one was to remove some of the barnacles and improve things...e.g. lexical closures.....second part was to add new features like call/cc yes?
2014-09-13T20:18:01Z Riastradh: Lexical scope and first-class continuations were what set Scheme apart from other Lisps from the beginning.
2014-09-13T20:18:08Z theseb: Riastradh: i tend of be interested in 1)....and postpone 2) for later
2014-09-13T20:18:23Z vanila: Do you think there will be new lisps, that bring something new?
2014-09-13T20:18:31Z theseb: vanila: i was asking that the other day!
2014-09-13T20:18:42Z vanila: cool :)
2014-09-13T20:18:45Z theseb: vanila: lexical closures seemed like the right thing at the right time
2014-09-13T20:18:54Z theseb: it was an obvious improvement
2014-09-13T20:19:15Z vanila: lexical closures is very cool
2014-09-13T20:19:15Z theseb: vanila: we'd need to ask the gurus if they see any glaring deficiencies they think need improving like that
2014-09-13T20:19:27Z theseb: s/lexical closures/lexical scope
2014-09-13T20:19:35Z theseb: not sure why i said "lexical closures"
2014-09-13T20:19:47Z Riastradh: Gerry and Guy were messing with the semantics of actors as Hewitt had introduced in Planner, and realized that a variety of disparate concepts could be coalesced into a uniform mechanism for lexically scoped closures and continuations.
2014-09-13T20:20:08Z Riastradh: That was how Scheme happened.  If you write continuations out of the story, there's no point in calling it Scheme.
2014-09-13T20:21:07Z theseb: ok
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2014-09-13T20:21:44Z theseb: In case you haven't noticed...there hasn't been too much innovation in editors and word processors....we'll probably be using Emacs, Latex and LibreOffice 20 years from now (w/ perhaps voice recog bolted on)
2014-09-13T20:22:01Z theseb: i'm wondering if lisp has matured like these other apps
2014-09-13T20:22:15Z theseb: so that it will stay the same or if there are still some innovations left
2014-09-13T20:22:32Z theseb: that need tending to
2014-09-13T20:24:21Z theseb: I would tend to think after 50-60 years we've prolly found most of the big innovations
2014-09-13T20:24:43Z vanila: is CATCH call/cc?
2014-09-13T20:25:10Z Riastradh: *shrug* I sure hope those aren't the best we can manage.
2014-09-13T20:25:21Z Riastradh: vanila: Yes -- (catch k E) = (cwcc (lambda (k) E))
2014-09-13T20:25:26Z Riastradh: Gotta run.
2014-09-13T20:25:27Z Riastradh: *poof*
2014-09-13T20:25:30Z vanila: noooooo
2014-09-13T20:25:33Z vanila: bye :)
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2014-09-13T20:29:05Z chase_gray: hi, is there a way to determine the definition of a function from within the interpreter?
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2014-09-13T20:29:50Z vanila: chase_gray, not usually in scheme
2014-09-13T20:30:02Z chase_gray: oh /:
2014-09-13T20:30:30Z chase_gray: so i'm guessing there's no way to determine the necessary parameters of a function
2014-09-13T20:30:34Z chase_gray: from within the intepreter?
2014-09-13T20:31:11Z vanila: i usually check the source code or documentation, it's possible that an interpreter can tell you this stuff but mine is so basic it doesnt
2014-09-13T20:31:41Z chase_gray: oh ok, thank you!
2014-09-13T20:33:14Z ilammy: Hey guys.
2014-09-13T20:33:27Z ilammy: Everybody knows that in macros (foo ...) means 'zero or more foos'.
2014-09-13T20:33:53Z ilammy: Is (foo !..) an obvious way to write 'one or more foos'?
2014-09-13T20:35:35Z vanila: (foo foo ...)
2014-09-13T20:36:02Z vanila: maybe +++ for one or more if you're inventing syntax
2014-09-13T20:39:36Z ilammy: No, I am asking purely about legibility of such syntax
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2014-09-13T20:40:03Z vanila: ! makes me think of uniqueness
2014-09-13T20:40:03Z ilammy: I always tought that this (foo foo ...) is kinda dumb
2014-09-13T20:40:25Z ilammy: This pattern appears quite a few times in various 'implicit begin' contexts...
2014-09-13T20:40:31Z vanila: I suppose
2014-09-13T20:40:38Z vanila: but pattern matching could be arbitrarily complex/advanced
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2014-09-14T18:42:44Z corecode_: hi
2014-09-14T18:46:48Z corecode_: is there a way to find out which file/line an sexpr was read from?
2014-09-14T18:47:13Z corecode_: basically i want to do a semantic check over a user-defined datastructure
2014-09-14T18:47:21Z corecode_: or am i approaching this the wrong way?
2014-09-14T18:48:53Z pjb: Nothing standard.  Read the documentation of your IDE.
2014-09-14T18:49:11Z pjb: I don't see the relationship between semantic checks and file/line of sexps.
2014-09-14T18:49:22Z pjb: So probably you're approaching this the wrong way.
2014-09-14T18:50:50Z corecode_: basically i want to implement a DSL; i want to perform a form of type checking on the AST
2014-09-14T18:51:29Z corecode_: for error messages, it would be good to be able to refer to the locations the specific sexprs were read from
2014-09-14T18:51:33Z ijp: corecode_: not really, some implementations have a different version of read that also has this information (e.g. racket's read-syntax)
2014-09-14T18:51:58Z ijp: I think in guile we do it by object properties on the pairs, but obviously that fails for immediate values
2014-09-14T18:52:01Z corecode_: ijp: does it seem reasonable what i want to do?
2014-09-14T18:52:10Z corecode_: i've only used elisp so far
2014-09-14T18:52:24Z corecode_: now i want to build an actual freestanding program
2014-09-14T18:52:26Z ijp: it is reasonable to want to provide the best error information to your users as possible
2014-09-14T18:52:59Z corecode_: i mean, would that be an idiomatic approach
2014-09-14T18:53:15Z corecode_: to read the dsl with the reader, and expect annotations to be carried through
2014-09-14T18:53:22Z corecode_: (ideally through macro expansion)
2014-09-14T18:54:01Z ijp: READ will not give you that information (or perform macro expansion)
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2014-09-14T18:54:32Z corecode_: yes, macro expansion is a later step
2014-09-14T18:54:44Z corecode_: but this location information should still be retained across
2014-09-14T18:55:17Z ijp: if the file is a scheme file, containing scheme forms, that gets expanded by a scheme macro expander, it will usually have this information, but you will need to consult your implementations fine manual
2014-09-14T18:56:14Z corecode_: which implementation would you suggest for me?  i was looking at guile, but maybe racket will make it easier for me?
2014-09-14T18:56:56Z samth: corecode_: racket is designed to support building DSls
2014-09-14T18:59:02Z ijp: https://www.gnu.org/software/guile/manual/html_node/Source-Properties.html explains how guile handles this information
2014-09-14T19:00:43Z corecode_: ijp: that's nice as well
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2014-09-14T19:00:55Z corecode_: of course i searched for guile reader and did not come across this
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2014-09-14T19:40:45Z pjb: corecode_: the question is how specific you want your DSL to be.  If you want it to be embedded into the host scheme, then you shall rely on that host scheme debugging features (including if available, maching sexps to source file lines).  Which means, that for most scheme implementation, you won't provide this feature, since it generally doesn't exist.
2014-09-14T19:41:25Z pjb: corecode_: or you may implement a language quite separate from the hosting scheme, and then if you want to provide this feature, you should implement it yourself!  Write a sexp reader that takes note of source file lines, and use this information as you see fit.
2014-09-14T19:43:10Z pjb: In Common Lisp, you could portably take note of source lines, by writing your own set of reader macros (mostly just one for #\( really).  But for some reasons you might also want to re-implement the whole reader.  Which in the case of CL wouldn't be too much of a problem, since you could still use the sexps reader by your own reader to produce usual CL code.  But not so with scheme.
2014-09-14T19:43:17Z pjb: Here, you really have to re-implement everything.
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2014-09-14T20:06:41Z vanila: hi
2014-09-14T20:07:41Z vanila: http://lpaste.net/111057
2014-09-14T20:07:49Z vanila: is fast-map more efficient than map?
2014-09-14T20:10:17Z ijp: probably not
2014-09-14T20:10:29Z ijp: if by more efficient you mean faster
2014-09-14T20:10:38Z ski: you don't need to use `(cdr list)' inside the `cons' call in `tail-map'
2014-09-14T20:10:39Z vanila: what's the most efficient way to write map?
2014-09-14T20:10:54Z ijp: in asm
2014-09-14T20:10:59Z vanila: ijp, no
2014-09-14T20:11:06Z ski: also, iirc, `fast-map' can be distinguished from `map', in case the procedure argument uses continuations
2014-09-14T20:11:12Z ijp: ski: yes
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2014-09-14T20:11:30Z chase_gray: hey, is there a way to do optional arguments?
2014-09-14T20:11:40Z chase_gray: i tried doing #!optional, but is that only for lambda forms?
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2014-09-14T20:11:55Z ijp: chase_gray: depends on the implementation
2014-09-14T20:12:06Z ski: (vanila is manually doing LCMC/TCMC here)
2014-09-14T20:12:14Z ijp: but usually I'd expect the same syntax as lambda to work in the sugared define
2014-09-14T20:13:39Z ijp: case-lambda is probably the most portable (non-rest-args-parsing) way of doing optionals
2014-09-14T20:13:54Z chase_gray: mmmm, ok
2014-09-14T20:13:58Z chase_gray: thanks!
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2014-09-14T20:17:05Z ski: vanila : see section 3 (page 11) of "Making Mercury programs tail recursive" by Peter Ross,David Overton,Zoltan Somogyi in 1999-09 at <https://www.mercurylang.org/documentation/papers.html#tail_lopstr_lncs> for more info on TCMC/LCMC (Tail-Call Modulo Cons(tructor) / Last Call Modulo Cons(tructor))
2014-09-14T20:17:35Z ski: vanila : you could also ask LeoNerd for info on how it might be applied in Scheme (he implemented it in a Scheme implementation)
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2014-09-14T20:18:31Z vanila: thanks!
2014-09-14T20:18:32Z ijp: .oO(/me does not approve of TCMC)
2014-09-14T20:18:46Z vanila: very useful reply!
2014-09-14T20:19:40Z ijp: vanila: the advantage of the latter over the former is that on a typical implementation, it won't overflow the stack
2014-09-14T20:20:03Z ijp: usually people build it up in reverse then reverse!
2014-09-14T20:20:08Z ijp: what you are doing just combines the steps
2014-09-14T20:20:23Z vanila: I see!
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2014-09-14T20:42:03Z zacts: hi schemers
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2014-09-14T20:47:40Z LeoNerd: ski: Mmm?
2014-09-14T20:49:35Z ski: see above
2014-09-14T20:50:27Z LeoNerd: Hrm.. TCMC?
2014-09-14T20:50:33Z LeoNerd: Or... what? I'm not sure wat in particular
2014-09-14T20:50:50Z ski: yes, TCMC
2014-09-14T20:51:13Z ski: i thought it was you who experimented with implementing that
2014-09-14T20:51:29Z LeoNerd: Ah.. Kindof. I didn't get as far as writing any code, but I thought about it
2014-09-14T20:51:39Z ski: ok
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2014-09-15T01:49:30Z vanila: How does LET work in CPS form?
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2014-09-15T02:02:06Z ijp: well, arguably it doesn't even exists
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2014-09-15T02:04:04Z ijp: but I'm sure you can figure out how such a form would work by combining the rules for lambda and application
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2014-09-15T05:09:35Z burger-brother: persistance!
2014-09-15T05:09:36Z burger-brother: www.prevayler.org
2014-09-15T05:09:36Z burger-brother: scheme options?
2014-09-15T05:09:36Z burger-brother: or just use postgresql?
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2014-09-15T05:41:52Z burger-brother: scheme !! its pisser!
2014-09-15T05:43:54Z ski: morning, gavino
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2014-09-15T07:31:21Z sigjuice: The section "Implementing the constraint system" in SICP explains why process-forget-value must call process-new-value.  I didn't quite understand that.  Is there a simple example that shows why process-new-value is needed?
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2014-09-15T08:05:43Z lamC: Lisppaste is available in 0 channels on the IRC network Freenode...
2014-09-15T08:06:09Z lamC: Is there any body read PLAI before?
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2014-09-15T08:06:37Z lamC: In chapter 14, my lam branch is:     [(_ (lam (a) b))      (identifier? #'a)      #'(lambda (k)          (k (lambda (a dyn-k)               ((cps b) dyn-k))))]
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2014-09-15T08:07:16Z lamC: There's an error in my testing case:(test (run (cps ((lam (x) (* x x)) 5))) 25), error: cps.rkt:82:23: x: unbound identifier in module in: x
2014-09-15T08:09:45Z endthefed: gist.github.com
2014-09-15T08:12:28Z ski: strange
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2014-09-15T09:10:39Z CaptainRant: How does hash-table-set! work if arguments are passed by value ? Is there implicit boxing ?
2014-09-15T09:11:34Z taylanub: CaptainRant: "data structure" kind of objects are always (semantically) boxed, yes
2014-09-15T09:12:08Z taylanub: a hash table will always be passed around through a reference to it, unless you have a very crazy hash table implementation.  note that standard Scheme defines no hash table API, though there's some SRFI(s) for it
2014-09-15T09:12:46Z CaptainRant: Im using srfi-69 and it can only add associations by mutating the hash-table.
2014-09-15T09:13:12Z taylanub: one nasty pitfall is when using "alists", a mapping made of a list of key-value pairs, like ((key1 . val1) (key2 . val2)), because in this case the empty alist is (), which is an "atomic" value and will *not* be passed by reference
2014-09-15T09:13:20Z taylanub: but hash tables don't have this problem
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2014-09-15T09:36:36Z ecraven: taylanub: why would you ever need to mutate an alist? just prepend
2014-09-15T09:36:47Z ecraven: or create an entirely new one when removing items
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2014-09-15T09:43:14Z ski: prepending could lead to space leaks
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2014-09-15T09:51:50Z taylanub: ecraven: when you prepend, you essentially change the identity of the alist, so you have to give it back to whomever handed it you
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2014-09-15T10:22:37Z ijp: taylanub: it's not sensible to think of lists as having one identity
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2014-09-15T10:27:56Z taylanub: well yeah, one shouldn't try to use them as such
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2014-09-15T12:43:52Z CaptainRant: Is there a reason why open-output-file results in unspecified behaviour when the file already exists ?
2014-09-15T12:44:32Z LeoNerd: Probably differences between existing implementations/OSes
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2014-09-15T13:09:21Z ijp: because writing robust programs is outside of the scope of the standard
2014-09-15T13:16:10Z civodul: :-)
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2014-09-15T15:47:48Z CaptainRant: If i use functions with side effects (postfixed by !) inside a function, should i also postfix it with an ! ?
2014-09-15T15:48:08Z LeoNerd: It's considered polite, yes :)
2014-09-15T15:48:17Z vanila: I think ! is just for mutation though
2014-09-15T15:48:29Z vanila: set-car! set! etc
2014-09-15T15:48:43Z LeoNerd: What is mutation if not a side-effect? :)
2014-09-15T15:49:05Z CaptainRant: LeoNerd: This would leak trough my whole program. I want to create a hash-table and populate it using hash-table-set!
2014-09-15T15:49:14Z Riastradh: There are side effects not marked by !.
2014-09-15T15:49:18Z Riastradh: For example, READ-CHAR.
2014-09-15T15:49:22Z LeoNerd: There's an interesting corner-case of what happens if your function doesn't overall perform any side-effects, but happens to use side-effects for its own implementation
2014-09-15T15:50:03Z LeoNerd: Such things ought not matter in most use-cases, but might sometimes be visible under application of call-cc or similar, in some situations
2014-09-15T15:51:30Z Riastradh: Typically one doesn't mark everything that does mutation with !, but only those operations whose sole purpose is the mutation their name describes.
2014-09-15T15:51:58Z CaptainRant: i think this would be the only sane thing. Otherwise every function would have a !
2014-09-15T15:57:29Z ventonegro: unless all your functions mutate state, which is bad style
2014-09-15T15:57:51Z ventonegro: s/unless/only if/
2014-09-15T15:58:31Z pjdelport: CaptainRant: As a rule of thumb, you'd use ! for things that directly mutate their primary argument, rather than just all functions that involve mutation of some state somewhere.
2014-09-15T15:59:48Z pjdelport: CaptainRant: So if you see (frobnicate-foo! foo bar), the ! should be suggesting that the foo object is being directly mutated.
2014-09-15T16:00:04Z pjdelport: (as opposed to being returned, or anything like that)
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2014-09-15T16:12:44Z CaptainRant: Whats the idiomatic way of handling optional arguments ? DSSSL ? I see there are several ways doing this.
2014-09-15T16:17:38Z pjdelport: CaptainRant: There's the (lambda args ...) approach, and the dotted list (define (foo bar baz . rest) ...) approach, and a number of Schemes support DSSSL-style annotations
2014-09-15T16:17:56Z pjdelport: There's http://srfi.schemers.org/srfi-89/srfi-89.html too
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2014-09-15T16:20:10Z pjdelport: What's more idiomatic or appropriate probably depends on the details, though.
2014-09-15T16:20:27Z pjdelport: The first two are most portable, certainly.
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2014-09-15T16:38:36Z ijp: remember to check the return values of ! functions
2014-09-15T16:38:58Z ijp: especially srfi 1 ones
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2014-09-15T18:42:51Z vanila: http://lpaste.net/111080 I've made a tool that lets you write C code using Scheme/racket
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2014-09-15T18:43:25Z ilammy: Hai.
2014-09-15T18:43:34Z vanila: hi
2014-09-15T18:43:59Z ilammy: Is there a way to match empty list, proper list, and dotted list in Scheme macros using a single pattern?
2014-09-15T18:44:17Z ilammy: I am pretty sure there is not any, but maybe I am missing something.
2014-09-15T18:44:36Z vanila: no yo ucant do it
2014-09-15T18:44:39Z vanila: just write them separate
2014-09-15T18:45:20Z Riastradh: In the usual nomenclature, that would match anything whatsoever.
2014-09-15T18:45:38Z Riastradh: (Anything that is neither () nor a pair is an empty dotted list.)
2014-09-15T18:46:44Z ilammy: Well, that does not match #(vectors ...) and atoms.
2014-09-15T18:47:01Z Riastradh: A vector is an empty dotted list too.
2014-09-15T18:47:18Z Riastradh: What is the broader problem you're trying to solve?
2014-09-15T18:49:28Z ilammy: What do you mean by 'empty dotted list'? I thought there are 1) empty lists: (), 2) proper lists: (a . (b . (c . ... (z . ()) ... ))), 3) dotted lists: (a . (b . (c . ... (z . not-empty-list) ...)))
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2014-09-15T18:50:45Z Riastradh: The usual nomenclature is that a proper list either () or a pair whose cdr is a proper list, a dotted list is either any non-(), non-pair object or a pair whose cdr is a dotted list, and a circular list is a pair whose cdr chain loops back on itself.
2014-09-15T18:51:09Z vanila: Hi
2014-09-15T18:51:13Z vanila: I'm writing  a scheme to C compiler
2014-09-15T18:51:36Z CaptainRant: have you seen chicken ?
2014-09-15T18:51:58Z vanila: it's the main scheme impl. I use but i've not looked at the source code
2014-09-15T18:52:16Z vanila: I tried to look at BONES source code but over all I don't know how to learn from the source code for a compiler
2014-09-15T18:52:31Z gnomon: vanila, have you looked at any of Marc Feeley's excellent work on the topic?
2014-09-15T18:52:53Z gnomon: vanila, did you read any of those links from http://library.readscheme.org that I tossed your way last week?
2014-09-15T18:54:07Z vanila: yeah overall the approach from marc feeley is what I based the whole thing on, but there's trouble
2014-09-15T18:54:27Z vanila: the readscheme library has been very useful!
2014-09-15T18:54:46Z gnomon: Excellent!
2014-09-15T18:55:01Z vanila: I've written 2 compilers that dont work
2014-09-15T18:55:07Z vanila: if you can call them that
2014-09-15T18:55:13Z vanila: so ill write a third that does work maybe
2014-09-15T18:55:41Z gnomon: vanila, gambatte!
2014-09-15T18:55:50Z vanila: thanks you :)
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2014-09-15T18:56:22Z vanila: this time I'm going to make it much more efficient by direct implementation of LET and some simple things like that
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2014-09-15T18:56:43Z vanila: then hopefully it will actually be able to lift off
2014-09-15T18:58:40Z vanila: I'm a bit confused about the purpose of CPS transform though
2014-09-15T18:58:56Z vanila: I originally used CPS transform so that every call is a tail call, then with a trampoline you get TCO "for free"
2014-09-15T18:59:19Z vanila: but why shouldn't I just skip CPS transform and detect tail calls syntactically - use a trampoline for them and use C stack for non tail calls
2014-09-15T19:00:01Z vanila: ok this stops me implementing call/cc through CPS - but I want direct shift/reset instead
2014-09-15T19:01:03Z turbofail: yeah there's no real reason to do a CPS transform just to implement tail calls
2014-09-15T19:02:53Z vanila: I feel like I can do more direct implementations of constructs if I don't CPS everything
2014-09-15T19:03:01Z vanila: because I don't really understand how LET relates to CPS for example
2014-09-15T19:03:22Z vanila: right now i only do LAMBDA and IF directly because I know how to CPS them
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2014-09-15T19:04:37Z Riastradh: Just expand (let ((x 5)) E) into ((lambda (x) E) 5).
2014-09-15T19:05:13Z vanila: that's what I currently do but I got the impression a direct implementation of LET would be more efficient
2014-09-15T19:05:23Z vanila: since it doesn't have to allocate a closure environment etc.
2014-09-15T19:05:46Z Riastradh: Does that mean your compiler will generate worse code for ((lambda (x) E) 5) than for (let ((x 5)) E)?  That would be silly.
2014-09-15T19:07:27Z vanila: I get your point and ideally I'd like to do everything that way - but I tried very hard to implement a compiler with this "pure" approach and generated code is very slow
2014-09-15T19:08:38Z Riastradh: Your job as a Scheme compiler writer is to recognize the different ways lambda may be used and generate code appropriately for them.
2014-09-15T19:08:44Z vanila: (for that specific example it's easy to turn in place lambda applications into LET's, but it's more a pervasive problem like e.g. functions passed as value might be slower than functions called directly)
2014-09-15T19:10:20Z turbofail: well they obviously will be slower
2014-09-15T19:10:33Z turbofail: unless you do some flow-analysis or inlining or whatnot
2014-09-15T19:12:15Z vanila: the main thing i want is to be able to compile all my code from SICP and bootstrap the compiler
2014-09-15T19:15:24Z vanila: I wonder what some of the most important optimizations for a scheme compiler are?
2014-09-15T19:16:07Z turbofail: there's tons of interesting articles about this sort of thing
2014-09-15T19:17:01Z turbofail: kent dybvig's papers are some of my favorites
2014-09-15T19:19:39Z vanila: Oh
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2014-09-15T19:19:52Z vanila: another thing that would be really really ncie is a good thorough set of benchmark/test programs
2014-09-15T19:20:00Z vanila: does anyone know where I could get something like that? Instead of just using my SICP code..
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2014-09-15T19:30:44Z vanila: http://haskell.cs.yale.edu/wp-content/uploads/2011/02/retrospective.pdf this talks about aggressive use of CPS, but what does that mean exactly?
2014-09-15T19:33:40Z turbofail: well there's value in using CPS as an intermediate form to do compiler optimizations on
2014-09-15T19:34:52Z turbofail: i'm not exactly sure what "aggressive use" means either
2014-09-15T19:35:42Z turbofail: you should probably read the papers it references though, like kelsey's "compilation by program transformation"
2014-09-15T19:36:32Z vanila: I've read that a bit, it's very nice but I don't know what I can apply from it
2014-09-15T19:36:45Z vanila: I need to read more deeply or something
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2014-09-15T19:38:24Z C-Keen: or apple's compiling with continuations
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2014-09-15T19:51:16Z pjdelport: vanila: http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Rabbit:_A_Compiler_for_Scheme ?
2014-09-15T19:51:44Z vanila: yes
2014-09-15T19:52:47Z pjdelport: (old, but maybe marginally useful)
2014-09-15T19:54:50Z vanila: maybe the idea of hoisting every lambda (that comes out after CPS) is bad
2014-09-15T19:55:05Z vanila: a lot of those will only be called once or not be passed around
2014-09-15T19:55:24Z vanila: rather than buildng  closure with it and pushing it onto the stack with a continuation there might be some faster way
2014-09-15T19:55:38Z vanila: http://www.ccs.neu.edu/home/shivers/papers/diss.pdf lookng at the CPS chapter of this
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2014-09-23T23:47:25Z samth: eli: we need an op here
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2014-09-24T00:38:46Z vanila: Hi
2014-09-24T00:39:00Z vanila: How can DEFINE be handled in a scheme interpreter?
2014-09-24T00:39:39Z vanila: I understand that BEGIN doesn't "introduce a new scope" while LET and LAMBDA do, so I tried making a mutable cell that holds an assoc list of define'd values - reboxing it when entering a lambda & pushing onto it when DEFINE Is evaluated
2014-09-24T00:39:48Z vanila: but I think this is kind of slwo, any other approachs?
2014-09-24T00:40:09Z vanila: running the interpreter on some test code did something like 80k reboxings
2014-09-24T00:42:48Z _tca: vanila: what about the trick friedman showed in the minikanren hangout
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2014-09-24T00:48:19Z samth: offby1: do you know who's an op here?
2014-09-24T00:48:23Z _tca: EOPL should also have a correct way to do this
2014-09-24T00:49:06Z samth: vanila: usually you transform internal define into letrec
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2014-09-24T00:52:12Z offby1: samth: nope
2014-09-24T00:52:53Z kongtomorrow: vanila: you might check SICP's presentation - http://sarabander.github.io/sicp/html/4_002e1.xhtml#Operations-on-Environments
2014-09-24T00:52:57Z rudybot: http://tinyurl.com/pyel5m2
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2014-09-24T01:05:50Z vanila: what friedman trick?
2014-09-24T01:05:58Z vanila: transforming define seems like a really nice solution
2014-09-24T01:06:23Z vanila: thanks kongtomorrow im loooking into it
2014-09-24T01:08:11Z _tca: vanila: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ux6St9r-KmM
2014-09-24T01:08:15Z _tca: its at the start of this one
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2014-09-24T01:10:23Z vanila: ok thanks1
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2014-09-24T02:09:23Z eli: samth: why?
2014-09-24T02:10:26Z eli: Oh, I see.  Sorry I missed it.
2014-09-24T02:11:22Z samth: eli: can you give me ops?
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2014-09-24T02:12:14Z eli: samth: I don't think so.
2014-09-24T02:12:23Z samth: who can?
2014-09-24T02:12:36Z eli: I vaguely remember something about a channel founder or something like that
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2014-09-24T02:12:58Z eli: Just a second, I'll see if I can poke chanserv
2014-09-24T02:13:33Z ChanServ has set mode +o samth
2014-09-24T02:13:40Z ChanServ has set mode -o samth
2014-09-24T02:13:52Z eli: That's not too useful
2014-09-24T02:14:15Z ChanServ has set mode +o samth
2014-09-24T02:14:39Z samth: eli: seems to have worked
2014-09-24T02:15:03Z eli: samth: Seriously?
2014-09-24T02:15:04Z samth: eli: except now chanserv doesn't have ops
2014-09-24T02:15:18Z eli: Are you sure you didn't have that before?
2014-09-24T02:15:31Z samth changed the topic of #scheme to: (map surf-to '("http://paste.lisp.org/new/scheme" "http://ccl.clozure.com/irc-logs/scheme/" "http://schemers.org/" "http://community.schemewiki.org/" "http://library.readscheme.org/" "http://mitpress.mit.edu/sicp/" "http://swiss.csail.mit.edu/classes/6.001/abelson-sussman-lectures/" "http://www.htdp.org/" "http://www.scheme.com/tspl/"))
2014-09-24T02:15:39Z samth: eli: maybe i did
2014-09-24T02:15:59Z eli: (Was the topic bad?)
2014-09-24T02:16:05Z ChanServ has set mode -o samth
2014-09-24T02:16:09Z eli: I get this: samth +Aiortv [modified 27 weeks, 0 days, 12:57:37 ago]
2014-09-24T02:16:18Z ChanServ has set mode +o samth
2014-09-24T02:16:18Z eli: So it looks like you had it.
2014-09-24T02:16:25Z samth: ok
2014-09-24T02:16:25Z eli: Whatever "it" is
2014-09-24T02:16:45Z eli: I have "+ARiorstv"
2014-09-24T02:17:06Z eli: So I have an "R" and an "s" that you don't.
2014-09-24T02:17:15Z ChanServ has set mode -o samth
2014-09-24T02:17:25Z samth: what do those mean?
2014-09-24T02:18:03Z eli: And Riastradh has also "F", "f"
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2014-09-24T02:18:14Z eli: Which, I'm guessing, are something related to being the founder
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2014-09-24T02:18:41Z eli: Yes: +F - Grants full founder access; +f - Enables modification of channel access lists.
2014-09-24T02:18:54Z samth: ok, well now i can kickban gavino next time
2014-09-24T02:19:29Z eli: And mine are: +R - Enables use of the recover and clear commands; +s - Enables use of the set command.
2014-09-24T02:19:45Z eli: So I'm guessing that you don't need them--?
2014-09-24T02:19:53Z eli: s/guessing/conveniently \0/
2014-09-24T02:20:00Z samth: what do they do?
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2014-09-24T02:21:58Z eli: I think that you need Riastradh for his "f" flag
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2014-09-24T02:22:50Z eli: I tried: FLAGS #scheme samth +R
2014-09-24T02:22:50Z eli: And got back: You are not authorized to execute this command
2014-09-24T02:22:52Z eli: And now it looks dead
2014-09-24T02:22:53Z eli: I hope that I didn't kill it somewhow.
2014-09-24T02:23:14Z samth: didn't kill what?
2014-09-24T02:23:24Z samth: i don't care about other commands
2014-09-24T02:23:30Z eli: chanserv; it just came back.
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2014-09-24T02:25:18Z gavino-practice: samth: here: try kicking me
2014-09-24T02:25:26Z gavino-practice: to see if it works
2014-09-24T02:25:34Z gavino-practice: (Not based on ip...)
2014-09-24T02:25:42Z ChanServ has set mode +o samth
2014-09-24T02:25:46Z gavino-practice [sid14502@racket/samth] has been kicked from #scheme by samth (gavino-practice)
2014-09-24T02:26:00Z samth: success
2014-09-24T02:26:04Z ChanServ has set mode -o samth
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2014-09-24T02:27:07Z eliyahu: foo
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2014-09-24T02:28:25Z eliyahu: samth: so that worked, and apparently some network thing went off.
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2014-09-24T03:56:04Z zacts: is gavino back?
2014-09-24T03:56:10Z zacts: what a stupid effing troll.
2014-09-24T03:56:14Z zacts: oh well.
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2014-09-24T05:36:40Z vanila: where can I get some nice test progams to test a scheme interpreter?
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2014-09-24T09:20:59Z vanila: can I get the tex files for R5RS?
2014-09-24T09:21:03Z vanila: nevermind
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2014-09-24T12:24:36Z ecraven: interesting: "Shen: A sufficiently advanced Lisp" by Aditya Siram,  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lMcRBdSdO_U
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2014-09-24T12:32:23Z taylanub: ecraven: isn't that the Scheme version of Qi?
2014-09-24T12:32:56Z vanila: ecraven, Have you seen nada amins talk
2014-09-24T12:33:00Z vanila: I like that one
2014-09-24T12:33:07Z ecraven: vanila: no :) strangeloop too?
2014-09-24T12:33:14Z ecraven: taylanub: Qi as in what?
2014-09-24T12:33:14Z vanila: yeah!
2014-09-24T12:33:22Z taylanub: ecraven: Qi was on CL
2014-09-24T12:33:24Z ecraven: vanila: i'll check it out while fighting typo3 :)
2014-09-24T12:33:27Z vanila: Qi is the previous incarnation of chen
2014-09-24T12:33:37Z vanila: shen
2014-09-24T12:34:30Z taylanub: .oO( honk honk )
2014-09-24T12:35:09Z taylanub: .oO( like anybody would get the reference :( )
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2014-09-24T12:39:51Z ecraven: vanila: thanks for the link, listening to the talk by nada amin now ;)
2014-09-24T12:40:00Z ecraven: that first thing she does is like Restarts, I think
2014-09-24T12:40:16Z vanila: it was a fun talk, but im realyl glad I was watching it on youtube so I could pause and rewind :P
2014-09-24T12:41:46Z ilammy: taylanub, I got it :3
2014-09-24T12:44:31Z taylanub: :)
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2014-09-24T13:21:07Z ecraven: vanila: any other scheme-related talks?
2014-09-24T13:21:41Z vanila: im not sure, that's the only one i saw
2014-09-24T13:26:34Z gnomon: !seen wingo
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2014-09-24T13:51:55Z samth: vanila: also related https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RG9fBbQrVOM https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a0gT0syAXsY and https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lMcRBdSdO_U
2014-09-24T13:52:10Z vanila: thanks
2014-09-24T13:52:20Z vanila: I was wondering: WHat is that weird alien stuff in R7RS
2014-09-24T13:53:41Z vanila: http://i.imgur.com/uAmgX2d.png like this
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2014-09-24T13:55:42Z ilammy_: vanila, as I recall, this 'weird stuff' was all along in R5RS too
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2014-09-24T13:56:27Z vanila: http://www.schemers.org/Documents/Standards/R5RS/HTML/r5rs-Z-H-10.html#%_sec_7.2.2 I see
2014-09-24T13:56:27Z rudybot: http://tinyurl.com/mr586f7
2014-09-24T13:57:16Z vanila: and what does it do
2014-09-24T13:57:20Z vanila: who benefits from this?
2014-09-24T13:57:25Z mario-goulart: It's a technique to illustrate things in a way that makes you look smarter.
2014-09-24T13:57:48Z samth: vanila: it's a precise description of how those forms should work
2014-09-24T13:57:49Z ilammy_: In R6RS they switched to operational semantics.
2014-09-24T13:57:55Z ilammy_: But that was even harder to understand!
2014-09-24T13:57:58Z samth: whereas the prose is less precise
2014-09-24T13:58:17Z samth: ilammy_: i think the R6RS operational semantics was much easier to understand
2014-09-24T13:58:20Z vanila: Could you use it to mathematically prove a compiler correct?
2014-09-24T13:58:22Z samth: and it was executable
2014-09-24T13:58:27Z samth: vanila: yes, you could
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2014-09-24T13:59:02Z ilammy is going to punish his IP pigeons...
2014-09-24T13:59:08Z vanila: What are the best things about R7RS over R5RS?
2014-09-24T13:59:18Z vanila: I like that it adds "modules"/libraries
2014-09-24T13:59:25Z ilammy: Records and libraries.
2014-09-24T13:59:33Z vanila: and letrec* is nice I think
2014-09-24T13:59:49Z vanila: oh yeah records are very nice
2014-09-24T14:00:18Z vanila: although I can't stand having to indent my entier source code when I use define-library :(
2014-09-24T14:00:35Z ilammy: Then just don't do it ^)
2014-09-24T14:00:52Z vanila: I would have to communicate that to emacs somehow
2014-09-24T14:01:02Z ilammy: Although, it's not that bad looking when indents are 2 spaces
2014-09-24T14:01:11Z vanila: but anyway, R7RS looks very simple and nie
2014-09-24T14:01:12Z vanila: nice
2014-09-24T14:01:29Z vanila: and I appreciate the SYNTAX-RULES definitions of most of the language
2014-09-24T14:02:12Z vanila: It seemed a little strange to me that they are so loose about what an R7RS implementation can be though, in terms fo numbers at least
2014-09-24T14:03:33Z vanila: It would have been good if they used SHIFT/RESET instead of callcc
2014-09-24T14:03:52Z vanila: but I guess there is historical baggage that makes it hard to move over
2014-09-24T14:04:06Z ecraven: vanila: shouldn't be hard to put the correct indentation info on define-library
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2014-09-24T14:04:44Z ilammy: vanila, http://www.gnu.org/software/emacs/manual/html_node/emacs/Lisp-Indent.html
2014-09-24T14:04:54Z vanila: thanks :)
2014-09-24T14:05:13Z vanila: do you think that R7RS will help bring scheme compilers together?
2014-09-24T14:05:28Z ecraven: probably (just a guess): (put 'define-library 'scheme-indent-function 0)
2014-09-24T14:05:33Z vanila: currently, I don't even dream about running a scheme program in any other implementation
2014-09-24T14:05:38Z vanila: I know this will never work
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2014-09-24T14:06:14Z vanila: is there hope that scheme might be an actual language soon, as opposed there being chicken-scheme, guile-scheme, mit-scheme, chez-scheme, racket, ... all incompatable
2014-09-24T14:06:28Z ecraven: vanila: not exactly incompatible :) there are a few portable libraries
2014-09-24T14:06:38Z vanila: it looks like R7RS makes this hope possible
2014-09-24T14:06:49Z vanila: to me, at least - I hope im not mistaken
2014-09-24T14:06:52Z samth: vanila: no, there is basically no hope
2014-09-24T14:07:03Z vanila: samth, but you're saying this as a racket developer right?
2014-09-24T14:07:09Z ilammy: Well, that's what you get when the language is posed as 'minimalistic' one.
2014-09-24T14:07:26Z ilammy: Just everybody and their grandma can make an implementation.
2014-09-24T14:07:37Z samth: vanila: i am a racket developer, so in some sense everything i say is as a racket developer
2014-09-24T14:07:44Z samth: but i'm just making a prediction
2014-09-24T14:07:50Z vanila: ilammy, Actually ive been working extremely hard on this for months and fail - if anyone would donate a grandmother I would apprecite it!
2014-09-24T14:08:17Z vanila: (but I have hope for attempt #3 taking off someday)
2014-09-24T14:08:36Z ecraven: vanila: even if you have a standard module *system*, that doesn't mean you have standard or even vaguely compatible *modules*
2014-09-24T14:08:47Z ilammy: So I don't really have hopes for (minimalistic) Scheme becoming a _production-level_ language.
2014-09-24T14:09:40Z ilammy: It could be that Common Scheme (aka R7RS-big) to do it.
2014-09-24T14:09:45Z vanila: oh absolutely, but finally it looks like there is a standard way to import an external library!
2014-09-24T14:10:16Z ilammy: But I do not really understand what problem will that language solve. We already have Common Lisp and Racket :\
2014-09-24T14:10:26Z vanila: I definitely don't like the sound of R7RS-big, hopefully this something like a collection of SRFIs (not named SRFI though)
2014-09-24T14:10:44Z ilammy: And SRFIs too.
2014-09-24T14:11:04Z vanila: ilammy, but seriously - if there any key you can give me about scheme compiler implementation to make it easier I woul dlove it
2014-09-24T14:11:04Z ilammy: As API spec for minimalistic Scheme libraries.
2014-09-24T14:11:50Z ilammy: Uh... Did you read Lisp in Small Pieces?
2014-09-24T14:12:17Z vanila: I looked over it but not really read it
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2014-09-24T14:13:14Z ecraven: vanila: try this: (put 'define-library 'scheme-indent-function (lambda (a b c) 0))
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2014-09-24T14:13:36Z vanila: oh sure ecraven  , thanks very much
2014-09-24T14:13:43Z vanila: btw did you see the links from samth
2014-09-24T14:13:48Z vanila: The first one is really fun
2014-09-24T14:13:52Z vanila: minikanren is great
2014-09-24T14:14:29Z ecraven: i'll have a look, thanks :)
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2014-09-24T15:03:27Z taylanub presents  https://gitorious.org/taylan-scheme/io-extensions/