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I've never seen @ 2014-08-01T05:48:55Z b4283: niclg: it doesn't really matter if they are proper lists, because there's always macro 2014-08-01T05:49:16Z niclg: hmm 2014-08-01T05:50:59Z Guest44803 quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2014-08-01T05:52:19Z niclg: hm wow the wikipedia page on SXML is pretty informative 2014-08-01T05:53:57Z kongtomorrow joined #scheme 2014-08-01T06:09:46Z Oejet joined #scheme 2014-08-01T06:38:29Z ivan\ quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-08-01T06:38:30Z ivan\ joined #scheme 2014-08-01T06:38:30Z ivan\ quit (Changing host) 2014-08-01T06:38:30Z ivan\ joined #scheme 2014-08-01T06:40:33Z oldskirt_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-08-01T07:06:01Z bjz joined #scheme 2014-08-01T07:06:29Z mrowe_away is now known as mrowe 2014-08-01T07:07:23Z Gyps joined #scheme 2014-08-01T07:10:19Z asumu quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2014-08-01T07:10:27Z asumu joined #scheme 2014-08-01T07:14:08Z kongtomorrow quit 2014-08-01T07:18:43Z abeant_ joined #scheme 2014-08-01T07:20:17Z ivan\ quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-08-01T07:21:28Z ivan\ joined #scheme 2014-08-01T07:25:01Z mrowe is now known as mrowe_away 2014-08-01T07:30:42Z ivan\ quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-08-01T07:33:02Z ivan\ joined #scheme 2014-08-01T07:47:46Z kongtomorrow joined #scheme 2014-08-01T07:50:16Z Gyps quit (Quit: Gyps) 2014-08-01T07:50:31Z ee_cc joined #scheme 2014-08-01T07:51:16Z ee_cc quit (Client Quit) 2014-08-01T07:52:01Z kongtomorrow quit (Client Quit) 2014-08-01T07:53:06Z ee_cc_ joined #scheme 2014-08-01T08:10:06Z Steverman joined #scheme 2014-08-01T08:12:33Z abeant_ quit (Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com) 2014-08-01T08:24:29Z niclg left #scheme 2014-08-01T08:39:19Z ee_cc_ quit (Quit: ee_cc_) 2014-08-01T08:39:21Z stepnem joined #scheme 2014-08-01T08:47:30Z przl joined #scheme 2014-08-01T08:51:45Z ee_cc joined #scheme 2014-08-01T09:03:00Z phipes joined #scheme 2014-08-01T09:04:49Z safety quit (Quit: Linkinus - http://linkinus.com) 2014-08-01T09:05:58Z dmiles quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2014-08-01T09:21:56Z pnkfelix joined #scheme 2014-08-01T09:40:05Z bjz_ joined #scheme 2014-08-01T09:41:23Z bjz quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-08-01T09:42:45Z Tiristor joined #scheme 2014-08-01T09:45:30Z frkout quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2014-08-01T09:47:59Z kuribas joined #scheme 2014-08-01T09:56:52Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-08-01T09:58:52Z ee_cc quit (Quit: ee_cc) 2014-08-01T10:02:42Z przl joined #scheme 2014-08-01T10:03:54Z dzhus quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2014-08-01T10:09:46Z Tiristor quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2014-08-01T10:11:53Z phipes quit (*.net *.split) 2014-08-01T10:11:53Z Steverman quit (*.net *.split) 2014-08-01T10:11:53Z ivan\ quit (*.net *.split) 2014-08-01T10:13:40Z ee_cc joined #scheme 2014-08-01T10:14:19Z ivan\ joined #scheme 2014-08-01T10:14:25Z ivan\ quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2014-08-01T10:17:39Z ivan\ joined #scheme 2014-08-01T10:17:54Z ivan\ quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2014-08-01T10:18:17Z ivan\ joined #scheme 2014-08-01T10:18:20Z Steverman joined #scheme 2014-08-01T10:27:33Z Steverman quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-08-01T10:27:42Z ANGRYSTEVE joined #scheme 2014-08-01T10:27:42Z ANGRYSTEVE quit (Changing host) 2014-08-01T10:27:42Z ANGRYSTEVE joined #scheme 2014-08-01T10:35:28Z ee_cc quit (Quit: ee_cc) 2014-08-01T10:35:31Z jrslepak quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2014-08-01T10:35:37Z Tiristor joined #scheme 2014-08-01T10:37:26Z jrslepak joined #scheme 2014-08-01T10:38:49Z Tiristor2 joined #scheme 2014-08-01T10:40:56Z anannie joined #scheme 2014-08-01T10:40:56Z anannie quit (Changing host) 2014-08-01T10:40:56Z anannie joined #scheme 2014-08-01T10:41:21Z Tiristor quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2014-08-01T10:43:01Z peterhil joined #scheme 2014-08-01T10:45:19Z Tiristor2 quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2014-08-01T10:47:47Z karswell` joined #scheme 2014-08-01T11:01:13Z ee_cc joined #scheme 2014-08-01T11:01:33Z jrslepak quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-08-01T11:03:25Z jrslepak joined #scheme 2014-08-01T11:22:52Z b4283 quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2014-08-01T11:29:03Z stepnem quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-08-01T11:33:07Z kuribas quit (Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)) 2014-08-01T11:35:14Z tadni joined #scheme 2014-08-01T11:40:34Z ee_cc quit (Quit: ee_cc) 2014-08-01T11:47:34Z ee_cc_ joined #scheme 2014-08-01T11:49:43Z copumpkin quit (Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. 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2014-08-01T16:01:27Z Cheery: he stood calm, and he never returned. 2014-08-01T16:02:02Z gnomon: Nice. 2014-08-01T16:02:49Z gnomon: Did a knot of quiet, industrious followers scrub everywhere he moved and everything he touched, long after he passed? 2014-08-01T16:02:55Z Vutral quit (Excess Flood) 2014-08-01T16:04:16Z Cheery: I think I'll get to study more things with the help of the innards. 2014-08-01T16:05:41Z Nizumzen joined #scheme 2014-08-01T16:07:31Z Cheery: right now looking on how to implement my own scheme -sort of setting here. 2014-08-01T16:07:33Z pnkfelix joined #scheme 2014-08-01T16:08:19Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2014-08-01T16:09:20Z Cheery: https://gist.github.com/cheery/48cab6c9b770d9c9ecf0 2014-08-01T16:11:38Z Cheery: going to probably implement the compiler in some language familiar to me, at first. 2014-08-01T16:15:39Z Cheery: there's a thing I'm bit confused about. theoretic thing 2014-08-01T16:18:08Z theseb quit (Quit: Leaving) 2014-08-01T16:18:29Z Cheery: scheme and lisps in general are sort of languages that are by silhouette same as modern javascript or python. the techniques used in those languages seem to be a subset of techniques available in scheme 2014-08-01T16:18:42Z Cheery: from one viewpoint 2014-08-01T16:20:32Z Cheery: category of languages with functions as value, lexical scoping, garbage collection, complex control flow. 2014-08-01T16:24:59Z Cheery: I'm just wondering how to interpret what I've seen. it seems that one always returns to study scheme. 2014-08-01T16:26:17Z Cheery: repeatedly dynamic programming languages reimplement lisp concepts, badly or well. 2014-08-01T16:29:22Z DGASAU quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-08-01T16:30:34Z pjdelport: Cheery: Many of the things that Scheme pioneered have become more commonplace (like lexical static scoping), but two major features that still set Scheme apart from most are its first-class continuations and macros. 2014-08-01T16:33:14Z Cheery: the first-class continuations produce and stem from certain kind of formalism where you can implement the scheme in let, set, lambda and call that doesn't return. 2014-08-01T16:33:47Z Cheery: or I'm not exactly sure whether that's correct. 2014-08-01T16:34:06Z DGASAU joined #scheme 2014-08-01T16:34:20Z Cheery: but that kind of relation seems make it possible to implement everything in the first-class continuations, or either in that formalism. 2014-08-01T16:35:47Z Cheery: you're able to put the language backtrack, behave like a search. I'd imagine you could implement greenlets from python (about to study that) with call/cc 2014-08-01T16:36:19Z Cheery: and looking at the formalism gives the idea that it yields the generic idea of structured/unstructured control flow. 2014-08-01T16:36:44Z Cheery: the usual return from function is yet another special case. 2014-08-01T16:37:52Z Cheery: thing I wonder is where to go from here sort of. 2014-08-01T16:38:02Z pjdelport: Cheery: I'd say that first-class continuations are independent of any particular formalized implementation: ultimately, call/cc and friends are just an API and set of semantics that an implementation must support. 2014-08-01T16:38:14Z pjdelport: (And there are *many* different ways to approach its implementation.) 2014-08-01T16:38:23Z Cheery: after using javascript for while, it seems that call/return/exceptions simply can't do it all alone. 2014-08-01T16:38:33Z pjdelport: And yes, you can use call/cc to implement generators, coroutines, and all that. 2014-08-01T16:39:06Z pjdelport: If you're learning, you might also be interested in delimited continuations. 2014-08-01T16:39:10Z Cheery: also there should be some sort of multiple dispatch. at least for arithmetic 2014-08-01T16:39:21Z Cheery: oh I studied delimited continuations. 2014-08-01T16:39:38Z ARM9 joined #scheme 2014-08-01T16:39:39Z pjdelport: Oh, okay. 2014-08-01T16:40:14Z Cheery: but I didn't exactly understood why. the case of helping the REPL didn't seem significant enough to reason them. 2014-08-01T16:41:04Z Cheery: also the fact doesn't seem to change that they're still continuations. 2014-08-01T16:41:24Z Cheery: possibly requiring the same techniques to implement. 2014-08-01T16:42:24Z Cheery: you can point me resources that might help. I will read them 2014-08-01T16:43:49Z przl joined #scheme 2014-08-01T16:44:53Z Cheery: Though I'm still not sure what to do. the languages such as python and javascript seem like dead ends. They're useful and otherwise nice to program. But they seem to require a working, fast scheme implementation below. or part of it. 2014-08-01T16:45:01Z kongtomorrow quit 2014-08-01T16:46:20Z Cheery: their problems are that they're slowly growing up. becoming obstructed and everything else not part of programming gets in the way. 2014-08-01T16:47:06Z kongtomorrow joined #scheme 2014-08-01T16:48:27Z Cheery: I don't say scheme doesn't have it's problems. But the scheme is able to restart. 2014-08-01T16:48:49Z Cheery: there's something to return to when things become a dead end. 2014-08-01T16:50:00Z Cheery: C is similar, but it's sort of both dead end and restart together. 2014-08-01T16:50:43Z Cheery: and when I say dead end, I say evolutionary dead. C is going to be the same stuff it was 20 years ago, for another 20 years. 2014-08-01T16:51:25Z Cheery: why is evolutionary dead a bad thing? 2014-08-01T16:52:18Z mario-goulart: Cheery: just checking: do you know CHICKEN? 2014-08-01T16:52:41Z Cheery: mario-goulart: studied the chicken scheme too. But just the internals documentation. 2014-08-01T16:52:47Z mario-goulart: Ah, ok. 2014-08-01T16:52:56Z Cheery: should I study other parts? 2014-08-01T16:53:33Z mario-goulart: Since you mentioned Cheney on the MTA, I was just checking if you were aware of the existence of CHICKEN. 2014-08-01T16:53:52Z Cheery: I were searching around :) 2014-08-01T16:54:17Z Cheery: oh and had stumbled upon chicken before. these aren't new things to me. 2014-08-01T16:54:29Z Cheery: although I may have missed something 2014-08-01T16:55:33Z Cheery: I had some dose of VBA while ago. 2014-08-01T16:56:49Z Fare joined #scheme 2014-08-01T16:56:55Z Cheery: I did lots of errors. and the code written ended up large. 2014-08-01T16:57:27Z Cheery: in python there's moments that I can compress a complex concept into a very small piece that describes it entirely. 2014-08-01T16:57:46Z Cheery: that was difficult in VBA, even more difficult than it's in C. 2014-08-01T16:59:35Z Cheery: I tend to get these kind of moments in javascript too. using coffeescript sets it back slightly, but the semantics stay same. Have to write occassionally superfluous error handlers and code things in async program flow, although it becomes a mess. 2014-08-01T17:00:28Z ijp: Cheery: it's not just the repl you need delimited continuations for, but any code that needs to prevent other code from capturing its continuation (e.g. a gui main loop) 2014-08-01T17:01:05Z pjdelport: Delimited continuations also make some problems a whole lot simpler to express. 2014-08-01T17:01:20Z ijp: undelimited continuations are just trivially delimited continuations with exactly one prompt. but to fake delimited continuations (which most uses of continuations do) you also need state 2014-08-01T17:01:55Z pjdelport: Especially things like generators and greenlets, as mentioned above. Implementing them with just call/cc requires a great deal of verbosity just to emulate the delimitation that delimited continuations give you for free. 2014-08-01T17:02:29Z pjdelport: So undelimited continuations is both more verbose and less efficient for that. 2014-08-01T17:02:46Z pjdelport: s/is/are/ 2014-08-01T17:03:44Z Cheery: hmm 2014-08-01T17:04:44Z Fare quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-08-01T17:05:51Z Cheery: is there anything in scheme-side, that would be useful for inspecting runtime behavior of programs? 2014-08-01T17:05:59Z Nizumzen quit (Quit: KVIrc 4.2.0 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/) 2014-08-01T17:06:07Z DGASAU quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2014-08-01T17:06:23Z Cheery: or anything to the safety of executing code from unknown sources.. such as in javascript 2014-08-01T17:07:41Z Cheery: I guess I may find papers about the latter if I search. but not sure about the former subject's keywords. 2014-08-01T17:07:54Z Cheery: already found something on multi-methods 2014-08-01T17:08:41Z Fare joined #scheme 2014-08-01T17:09:43Z Shadox joined #scheme 2014-08-01T17:14:40Z pjdelport: Chicken has sandboxing functionality: http://wiki.call-cc.org/eggref/4/sandbox 2014-08-01T17:17:51Z Cheery: ok 2014-08-01T17:18:02Z b4283 quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2014-08-01T17:19:20Z ijp: rudybot: (call-with-output-file "worlddomination.txt" (lambda (o) (display "1. break racket sandbox\n2. ????\n3. PROFIT\n" o))) 2014-08-01T17:19:21Z rudybot: ijp: your sandbox is ready 2014-08-01T17:19:21Z rudybot: ijp: error: call-with-output-file: `write' access denied for worlddomination.txt 2014-08-01T17:19:33Z Cheery: ok 2014-08-01T17:19:36Z DGASAU joined #scheme 2014-08-01T17:20:25Z zz_jrhorn424 is now known as jrhorn424 2014-08-01T17:21:17Z cdan joined #scheme 2014-08-01T17:21:47Z Cheery: I think I changed my language design just while ago. But there's many things I'd need to ask. 2014-08-01T17:22:02Z Cheery: what reasons there are for lisp not having algebraic syntax? 2014-08-01T17:23:05Z Cheery: looking at parsing algorithms, shunting yard, recently. The complexity of introducing that in must be just one reason. 2014-08-01T17:24:16Z Cheery: I'm sorry. I guess I'll try find something myself about these subjects first. 2014-08-01T17:30:04Z pjdelport: Cheery: You mean infix syntax? Many lisps have that 2014-08-01T17:31:29Z pjdelport: On the SRFI side, there's http://srfi.schemers.org/srfi-105/srfi-105.html 2014-08-01T17:33:13Z pjdelport: http://readable.sourceforge.net/ 2014-08-01T17:35:43Z ijp spits 2014-08-01T17:38:32Z cdan quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-08-01T17:41:51Z pnkfelix quit (Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 24.3.92.1) 2014-08-01T17:42:10Z Vutral joined #scheme 2014-08-01T17:42:18Z Vutral quit (Excess Flood) 2014-08-01T17:44:39Z leppie quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2014-08-01T17:48:23Z leppie joined #scheme 2014-08-01T17:50:25Z Cheery: there's this another direction that's in the opposite direction of syntax from lisp. 2014-08-01T17:52:27Z przl quit (Quit: leaving) 2014-08-01T17:52:29Z amgarching joined #scheme 2014-08-01T17:54:25Z asumu: Cheery: what do you mean? 2014-08-01T17:54:34Z asumu: Like C syntax? Or something else? 2014-08-01T17:54:53Z ijp: probably the ones like prolog/coq/etc. that let you add your own 2014-08-01T17:56:27Z Cheery: I mean graphical. 2014-08-01T17:58:33Z Vutral joined #scheme 2014-08-01T18:01:13Z jcowan joined #scheme 2014-08-01T18:01:39Z jcowan: hoi 2014-08-01T18:03:04Z gnomon hands jcowan a small, somnolent ferret 2014-08-01T18:03:11Z gnomon nods solemnly 2014-08-01T18:03:23Z jcowan: Yes, but can it write the sets module for me? 2014-08-01T18:03:52Z gnomon: Aww, and it was so happy up until that moment. 2014-08-01T18:03:55Z Vutral quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2014-08-01T18:05:25Z jcowan: The problem with writing in a highly expressive language is it still takes just as long as using a verbose one like Java. You have to think just as hard, though it does save on typing. 2014-08-01T18:08:13Z mario-goulart: If typing takes time, the whole thing will take longer, no? 2014-08-01T18:09:21Z gnomon: Trivially, perhaps. 2014-08-01T18:09:29Z Cheery: I have never noted typing lisp hard or laborsome. it's the reading. 2014-08-01T18:09:29Z vraid: jcowan: and creating complex programs in java takes just as long as in assembly, since the abstractions make you think harder? :) 2014-08-01T18:09:34Z gnomon: The big gain is really in the reading. 2014-08-01T18:09:48Z pjdelport: Some high-level languages have typing inference. 2014-08-01T18:10:00Z jcowan: Eh, I can plan the next line while typing "FooFactoryFactory fooFactoryFactory = new FooFactoryFactory(12, 27, 49, "Hike")" 2014-08-01T18:10:32Z jcowan: After a while, that crap mostly just rolls off the fingerz. 2014-08-01T18:10:55Z gnomon: autocomplete 2014-08-01T18:10:59Z gnomon: M-tab 2014-08-01T18:11:31Z jcowan: I use autocompletion at the shell a lot, but don't find it helpful in writing code. But then I type fast. 2014-08-01T18:11:49Z ARM9: hello rsi 2014-08-01T18:11:59Z ARM9: good bye tendons 2014-08-01T18:13:25Z taylanub: reading more declarative languages is surely a lot nicer 2014-08-01T18:14:51Z taylanub: I guess you might reach the same readability if you learn all your patternal snippets well. what you'll use instead of map, what you'll use instead of filter, what you'll use instead of partition, etc. your brain will learn to recognize the three lines of code as a longcut for a call to e.g. map :P 2014-08-01T18:16:09Z pera joined #scheme 2014-08-01T18:17:08Z gnomon: taylanub, I know exactly what you're describing. It's interesting to feel my brain do different things when reading different types of code: in some cases the reading process is mostly compressive, as you say describe, while in others (APL et al) it's mostly expansive; and reading lisps is another thing altogether. 2014-08-01T18:19:07Z _bryan quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2014-08-01T18:28:01Z jrhorn424 is now known as zz_jrhorn424 2014-08-01T18:36:47Z DGASAU quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-08-01T18:36:52Z daviid quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-08-01T18:39:10Z DGASAU joined #scheme 2014-08-01T18:49:48Z plastic-houses joined #scheme 2014-08-01T18:50:43Z plastic-houses left #scheme 2014-08-01T19:11:26Z kongtomorrow quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-08-01T19:11:37Z kongtomorrow joined #scheme 2014-08-01T19:14:13Z ft quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2014-08-01T19:14:37Z ft joined #scheme 2014-08-01T19:30:17Z Gyps joined #scheme 2014-08-01T19:53:14Z jcowan: Fortunately, I have never come anywhere near RSI, perhaps becauswe I take sufficient breaks. 2014-08-01T19:54:35Z ARM9 quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-08-01T19:59:38Z exilyte joined #scheme 2014-08-01T20:00:10Z exilyte: Has anyone read the HtDP book? 2014-08-01T20:01:42Z exilyte: I need clarification of a certain exercise. 2014-08-01T20:02:31Z exilyte quit (Client Quit) 2014-08-01T20:05:11Z Vutral joined #scheme 2014-08-01T20:08:32Z Vutral quit (Excess Flood) 2014-08-01T20:11:57Z MontgoDB joined #scheme 2014-08-01T20:28:39Z jaimef quit (Excess Flood) 2014-08-01T20:28:56Z jaimef joined #scheme 2014-08-01T20:42:14Z Vutral joined #scheme 2014-08-01T20:51:44Z pjb: I browsed it. 2014-08-01T20:51:57Z Vutral quit (Excess Flood) 2014-08-01T20:53:49Z fikusz quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2014-08-01T20:56:18Z ijp quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2014-08-01T20:56:53Z drinkcoffee joined #scheme 2014-08-01T21:02:45Z daviid joined #scheme 2014-08-01T21:07:27Z fikusz joined #scheme 2014-08-01T21:13:26Z ijp joined #scheme 2014-08-01T21:14:04Z Fare quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-08-01T21:14:30Z jcowan: "At recognition reduce angle of attack. The quickness of the yoke movement should correspond with the abruptness of the stall. Apply smooth power and establish straight and level or climb as required. A pilot must make significantly incorrect control input during the stall to create an incipient spin. Instinctive reactions are invariably, if not wrong, too much control application. Stall and spin recoveries are intellectual; not instinctive." 2014-08-01T21:15:21Z jcowan: The few times that I tried driving, I had serious problems with overcorrecting for yaw at speed, sending me straight for the sidewalk on either side. 2014-08-01T21:15:39Z jcowan: Sorry, ww 2014-08-01T21:17:41Z fikusz quit (Quit: Leaving) 2014-08-01T21:19:47Z fikusz joined #scheme 2014-08-01T21:20:36Z cdan joined #scheme 2014-08-01T21:21:09Z duggiefresh quit 2014-08-01T21:22:51Z daviid` joined #scheme 2014-08-01T21:24:22Z daviid quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-08-01T21:46:23Z Gyps quit (Quit: Gyps) 2014-08-01T21:55:08Z rtra quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2014-08-01T22:00:25Z rtra joined #scheme 2014-08-01T22:00:54Z davexunit quit (Quit: Later) 2014-08-01T22:03:28Z Sgeo joined #scheme 2014-08-01T22:03:57Z Oejet quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2014-08-01T22:07:30Z Pie_Mage quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2014-08-01T22:09:37Z mwnaylor joined #scheme 2014-08-01T22:27:59Z mwnaylor quit (Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)) 2014-08-01T22:30:46Z joast quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2014-08-01T22:33:35Z pera quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-08-01T22:33:51Z Vutral joined #scheme 2014-08-01T22:39:05Z boycottg00gle joined #scheme 2014-08-01T22:41:35Z Vutral quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2014-08-01T22:52:30Z daviid`` joined #scheme 2014-08-01T22:54:22Z daviid` quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-08-01T23:01:06Z pera joined #scheme 2014-08-01T23:08:34Z daviid``` joined #scheme 2014-08-01T23:09:19Z boycottg00gle quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-08-01T23:09:56Z robot-beethoven joined #scheme 2014-08-01T23:10:03Z daviid`` quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2014-08-01T23:14:04Z jcowan quit (Quit: Leaving) 2014-08-01T23:15:38Z Nizumzen joined #scheme 2014-08-01T23:24:52Z Rptx joined #scheme 2014-08-01T23:36:36Z Vutral joined #scheme 2014-08-01T23:36:36Z Vutral quit (Changing host) 2014-08-01T23:36:36Z Vutral joined #scheme 2014-08-01T23:42:50Z Vutral quit (Excess Flood) 2014-08-01T23:43:42Z kongtomo_ joined #scheme 2014-08-01T23:44:39Z kongtomorrow quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-08-01T23:46:02Z jaimef quit (Excess Flood) 2014-08-01T23:46:15Z jaimef joined #scheme 2014-08-01T23:52:53Z copumpkin joined #scheme 2014-08-01T23:55:37Z daviid``` quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2014-08-01T23:59:29Z cdan quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2014-08-02T00:03:00Z Vutral joined #scheme 2014-08-02T00:03:02Z Vutral quit (Excess Flood) 2014-08-02T00:08:04Z tadni quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-08-02T00:10:17Z tadni joined #scheme 2014-08-02T00:28:12Z davexunit joined #scheme 2014-08-02T00:31:51Z Fare joined #scheme 2014-08-02T00:31:59Z ijp quit (Quit: generating more stupid ideas) 2014-08-02T00:34:08Z Pie_Mage joined #scheme 2014-08-02T00:51:31Z Vutral joined #scheme 2014-08-02T00:51:33Z Vutral quit (Excess Flood) 2014-08-02T01:09:37Z Nizumzen quit (Quit: KVIrc 4.2.0 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/) 2014-08-02T01:16:25Z aksatac__ is now known as aksatac 2014-08-02T01:16:44Z tadni quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-08-02T01:18:02Z tadni joined #scheme 2014-08-02T01:28:49Z joast joined #scheme 2014-08-02T01:39:34Z amgarching quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2014-08-02T01:47:53Z ANGRYSTEVE quit (Quit: Sunya in my bunya) 2014-08-02T02:09:22Z tadni quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-08-02T02:17:12Z AkashicLegend joined #scheme 2014-08-02T02:18:50Z tadni joined #scheme 2014-08-02T02:19:16Z Rodya_ joined #scheme 2014-08-02T02:28:47Z copumpkin is now known as thedevilhimself 2014-08-02T02:29:11Z thedevilhimself quit (Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. 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I have a working 3.8 from SICP (https://mitpress.mit.edu/sicp/full-text/book/book-Z-H-20.html#%_thm_3.8), but I don't really understand how it works. How does let maintain the state within this procedure when it is set to 0 initially? https://www.refheap.com/88852 2014-08-03T17:25:47Z jcowan: It's not let, but lambda that does so. 2014-08-03T17:26:22Z jcowan: Scheme knows that "state" is a state variable because it can see that it's bound with "set!" 2014-08-03T17:27:00Z jcowan: So in effect, it is replaced by an immutable local variable pointing to a free cell in the heap, whose value can be determined at any time. 2014-08-03T17:27:19Z jcowan: Even after 'f' has exited. 2014-08-03T17:27:52Z nisstyre: jcowan: bound with set! ? 2014-08-03T17:27:59Z jcowan: er, altered with set! 2014-08-03T17:28:03Z nisstyre: :p 2014-08-03T17:28:15Z DrDuck: jcowan: I'm hoping what you said will make sense in the next section of the book. 2014-08-03T17:28:40Z DrDuck: Section 3.2 The Environment MOdel of Evaluation 2014-08-03T17:28:56Z nisstyre: that will explain variable binding and assignment 2014-08-03T17:29:13Z nisstyre: so, yeah it should make sense 2014-08-03T17:30:21Z jcowan: Even apart from the assignment, it is the "let over lambda" construction that is preserving an assigned value for callers of the lambda. 2014-08-03T17:31:01Z jcowan: Do you understand why (define g (let ((x 10)) (lambda (y) (+ x y)))) always returns its argument plus 10? 2014-08-03T17:31:21Z DrDuck: Yes. 2014-08-03T17:31:29Z jcowan: Explain it to me. 2014-08-03T17:32:39Z karswell quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-08-03T17:32:40Z DrDuck: let initializes x to be 10, every time g is called. the inner procedure is within the scope of the let binding, so it adds x to whatever number is given to it 2014-08-03T17:34:19Z jcowan: Just so. 2014-08-03T17:35:09Z autochthon quit (Quit: autochthon) 2014-08-03T17:35:13Z jcowan: But that is oversimplified. What actually happens is that x is bound to a variable which is initialized to be 10. That "variable" never changes, so we tend to pretend it's not there and say "x is bound to 10" as you just did. 2014-08-03T17:35:45Z jcowan: Because "state" is subject to "set!", it's necessary to realize that the name "state" is bound to an actual object, a variable that truly can vary. 2014-08-03T17:35:57Z Natch quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2014-08-03T17:36:46Z jcowan: And indeed, let does not "initialize x to be 10 every time g is called", though it might as well. It initializes it only once as part of the definition of f. 2014-08-03T17:36:54Z jcowan: s/f/g 2014-08-03T17:38:58Z DrDuck: So even after f exits, state remains an object to be re-used when f is called again? How does it get deleted, then? And how can a new call to f remember the previous assignment to state? 2014-08-03T17:39:57Z ijp: DrDuck: it disappears when f does 2014-08-03T17:40:07Z DrDuck: wat 2014-08-03T17:40:52Z ijp: the state needs to be around for as long as the function exists, so when the function no longer exists, you can get rid of the state 2014-08-03T17:42:05Z Rodya_ joined #scheme 2014-08-03T17:42:12Z DrDuck: But it's somehow still there on the next call to f, remembering its previous value and ignoring the initial let binding to 0. 2014-08-03T17:42:30Z scoofy left #scheme 2014-08-03T17:42:57Z jcowan: The let initialization is done, over with, gone. 2014-08-03T17:43:06Z jcowan: If it were inside the lambda, it would be re-evaluated every time. 2014-08-03T17:43:09Z ijp: DrDuck: a function doesn't disappear when it is not being called, but when it is no longer referenced anywhere 2014-08-03T17:43:11Z jcowan: But it's outside, so it's one and done. 2014-08-03T17:44:15Z ijp: DrDuck: just like a cons doesn't go away when you car it 2014-08-03T17:47:04Z jcowan: Except in Linear Lisp, which Scheme is not. 2014-08-03T17:47:43Z hiroakip quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-08-03T17:47:48Z ijp: even a linear lisp needs to make some sort of exception for toplevel functions 2014-08-03T17:48:16Z ijp: unless you want to dup it every time... 2014-08-03T17:52:25Z hiroakip joined #scheme 2014-08-03T17:54:27Z amgarchIn9 joined #scheme 2014-08-03T17:57:05Z autochthon joined #scheme 2014-08-03T17:57:18Z hiroakip quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2014-08-03T18:07:13Z DrDuck: jcowan: I wish I could see a comparison of this in an imperative language, 2014-08-03T18:07:28Z DrDuck: If imperative languages can do this. 2014-08-03T18:07:40Z DrDuck: With one function. 2014-08-03T18:08:01Z jcowan: ijp: True 2014-08-03T18:08:20Z DrDuck: I guess it's kind of like a global variable? 2014-08-03T18:09:13Z jcowan: Well, local to an outer scope. 2014-08-03T18:09:39Z jcowan: Java lets you write methods within classes within methods, but it wimps out on this case, disallowing access to mutable (non-final) variables of the outer method from the inner method. 2014-08-03T18:10:14Z jcowan: Algol 60, one of the ancestors of Scheme (that's why we call it the RnRS), allowed the same thing, and it was imperative. 2014-08-03T18:10:40Z jcowan: It's just that C went through a bottleneck where nested functions were discarded, because Dennis didn't see how they were useful. 2014-08-03T18:10:46Z jcowan: Warped the thinking of whole generations of programmers. 2014-08-03T18:11:31Z DrDuck: :O 2014-08-03T18:12:18Z DrDuck: So this kind of thing wont be applicable in Java/C++. What /is/ the usefulness of this in an imperative language? 2014-08-03T18:14:04Z jcowan: The same as in any other language. It just requires a heap to implement. 2014-08-03T18:14:37Z jcowan: (or very complicated compiler convolutions) 2014-08-03T18:15:08Z jcowan: Scala allows it, and it is hybrid functional/imperative. 2014-08-03T18:21:40Z autochthon quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-08-03T18:24:43Z zarchne joined #scheme 2014-08-03T18:40:55Z cocosp joined #scheme 2014-08-03T18:57:21Z cocosp quit (Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2014-08-03T19:11:40Z plastic-houses joined #scheme 2014-08-03T19:14:03Z ijp: DrDuck: in java, the correct analogue to a function is an object with a call method 2014-08-03T19:14:10Z ijp: closed variables are fields of the object 2014-08-03T19:14:36Z ijp: (actually, modern java also has closures, but that would be useless as an explanation) 2014-08-03T19:16:37Z ijp: DrDuck: and the variables stick around for the same reason that fields in an object stick around 2014-08-03T19:18:32Z jcowan: The said closures are in fact objects with call methods anyway. 2014-08-03T19:18:53Z ijp: yes yes 2014-08-03T19:19:41Z jcowan: Functions are poor man's objects, but then again, objects are poor man's functions. 2014-08-03T19:19:56Z jcowan: "Money can't make you happy, but then again, happy can't make you money." --Groucho) 2014-08-03T19:20:00Z ijp: recursive poor men 2014-08-03T19:20:02Z plastic-houses: we have had persistant objects for yaers, they are called files 2014-08-03T19:20:33Z plastic-houses: oject oriented programming is an exceptionally bad idea that could only have come from california 2014-08-03T19:20:39Z plastic-houses: -ejger dyksta 2014-08-03T19:21:49Z ijp: a wild idiot appears! fight. switch. use. run. 2014-08-03T19:24:04Z Natch joined #scheme 2014-08-03T19:25:39Z plastic-houses: object oriented design is the roman numerals of computing 2014-08-03T19:25:43Z plastic-houses: -rob pike 2014-08-03T19:26:03Z ijp: do you have any opinions of your own? 2014-08-03T19:26:20Z ijp: thinking for yourself is an important skill to learn 2014-08-03T19:26:31Z plastic-houses: rum raisin ice cream is yummy 2014-08-03T19:27:33Z daviid quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-08-03T19:29:08Z plastic-houses: lol 2014-08-03T19:29:15Z plastic-houses: dont use apple or oracle 2014-08-03T19:29:33Z plastic-houses: vi not emacs 2014-08-03T19:29:41Z plastic-houses: iceWM wm 2014-08-03T19:29:57Z plastic-houses quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2014-08-03T19:30:03Z ijp: good riddance 2014-08-03T19:30:14Z yacks quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-08-03T19:50:04Z NinjaPenguin left #scheme 2014-08-03T19:52:47Z Steverman quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-08-03T19:57:27Z autochthon joined #scheme 2014-08-03T20:01:18Z cocosp joined #scheme 2014-08-03T20:01:29Z pdponze joined #scheme 2014-08-03T20:09:21Z zacts: https://github.com/zacts/zvim 2014-08-03T20:15:30Z omefire joined #scheme 2014-08-03T20:23:53Z hiroakip joined #scheme 2014-08-03T20:29:28Z kuribas joined #scheme 2014-08-03T20:32:08Z grettke joined #scheme 2014-08-03T20:34:10Z grettke quit (Client Quit) 2014-08-03T20:43:32Z acarrico quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-08-03T20:59:06Z ARM9 quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2014-08-03T20:59:17Z taylanub: Rum raisin? A Yuru Yuri fan in #scheme?!? 2014-08-03T21:01:31Z ijp: or someone with access to a Ben N Jerry's 2014-08-03T21:04:38Z Nizumzen joined #scheme 2014-08-03T21:05:30Z autochthon quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-08-03T21:08:30Z endthefed joined #scheme 2014-08-03T21:13:16Z endthefed is now known as plastic-houses 2014-08-03T21:14:18Z pdponze left #scheme 2014-08-03T21:18:24Z kuribas quit (Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)) 2014-08-03T21:55:42Z phax joined #scheme 2014-08-03T22:06:49Z cocosp quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2014-08-03T22:07:54Z Riastradh joined #scheme 2014-08-03T22:08:36Z hiroakip quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2014-08-03T22:09:38Z robot-beethoven joined #scheme 2014-08-03T22:11:14Z tadni quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2014-08-03T22:13:37Z peterhil quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2014-08-03T22:15:52Z kongtomorrow joined #scheme 2014-08-03T22:20:14Z Steverman joined #scheme 2014-08-03T22:22:44Z Nizumzen quit (Quit: KVIrc 4.2.0 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/) 2014-08-03T22:24:26Z Gyps joined #scheme 2014-08-03T22:24:52Z Steverman quit (Client Quit) 2014-08-03T22:27:40Z amoe quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2014-08-03T22:28:21Z Okasu quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2014-08-03T22:29:08Z pchrist quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-08-03T22:30:44Z pchrist joined #scheme 2014-08-03T22:34:33Z LeoNerd quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-08-03T22:37:55Z kbtr_ quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2014-08-03T22:39:43Z kbtr joined #scheme 2014-08-03T22:40:01Z amoe joined #scheme 2014-08-03T23:01:14Z offby1_ joined #scheme 2014-08-03T23:01:17Z offby1_ is now known as offby1-cloud 2014-08-03T23:02:18Z plastic-houses left #scheme 2014-08-03T23:03:40Z kongtomorrow quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-08-03T23:04:10Z kongtomorrow joined #scheme 2014-08-03T23:07:42Z AkashicLegend quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-08-03T23:08:08Z zacts: eme 2014-08-03T23:18:36Z mrowe_away is now known as mrowe 2014-08-03T23:24:38Z AkashicLegend joined #scheme 2014-08-03T23:26:04Z kongtomorrow quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2014-08-03T23:26:39Z jcowan: I have a question about syntax-rules. 2014-08-03T23:26:58Z jcowan: I want to have a s-r macro that expands to a lot of parallel definitions of procedures. 2014-08-03T23:27:30Z jcowan: Thus say I have three record types foo, bar, and baz, with functions make-{foo,bar,baz}, {foo,bar,baz}-ref, and {foo,bar,baz}-set! 2014-08-03T23:28:59Z jcowan: Now I want to write a definition of, say, "doit" in terms of make, ref, and set!, such that when this definition is wrapped by the macro, out comes definitions of foo-doit, bar-doit, and baz-doit, which call the appropriate constructors, accessors, mutators. 2014-08-03T23:29:44Z jcowan: It's easy to do with low-level macrology, but even at some cost in verbosity, can it be done with syntax-rules? 2014-08-03T23:31:34Z ANGRYSTEVE quit (Quit: Sunya in my bunya) 2014-08-03T23:31:39Z ijp: syntax rules can't generate names 2014-08-03T23:32:30Z jcowan: Right, so the names would have to be enumerated at the point of call. I'm willing to pay that price. 2014-08-03T23:32:55Z jcowan: After all, they might not be so regular as this (cf. null? vs. string-empty?) 2014-08-03T23:34:15Z Nizumzen joined #scheme 2014-08-03T23:37:00Z ijp: I don't see why not. you can think of make,ref, and set! as basically parameters 2014-08-03T23:37:15Z ijp: so your macro is just a special case of parameterize 2014-08-03T23:37:34Z ijp: (basically) 2014-08-03T23:39:02Z ijp waves hands 2014-08-03T23:39:58Z offby1: b 2014-08-03T23:40:58Z ijp: ヽ(°▽、°)ノ 2014-08-03T23:41:08Z offby1: ,table-flip 2014-08-03T23:41:18Z ijp smacks offby1 upside the haid 2014-08-03T23:41:25Z offby1: ,fable-tip 2014-08-03T23:41:37Z offby1: ,maple-bar 2014-08-04T00:00:02Z kongtomorrow joined #scheme 2014-08-04T00:00:38Z ijp: jcowan: the core of it, at least as I envision your macro would be the old al petrofsy trick using syntax rules literals 2014-08-04T00:00:48Z crom joined #scheme 2014-08-04T00:00:57Z ijp: I'm trying to implement it now, but cps macros make me sleepy 2014-08-04T00:01:23Z jcowan: It is a special case of parameterize, but I want to do the parameterization at compile time. 2014-08-04T00:01:35Z jcowan: And yes, CPS macros are hard even to understand, never mind write. 2014-08-04T00:02:03Z jcowan: But there are going to be 38 copies of the procs in the NumericVectorsCowan library, so it's worth having such a macro, I think. 2014-08-04T00:02:17Z ijp: jesus 2014-08-04T00:02:25Z ijp shakes head 2014-08-04T00:03:04Z ijp: eduardo cavavos did this his indexable-sequences library, but that was using syntax-case 2014-08-04T00:03:18Z ijp: https://github.com/dharmatech/indexable-sequence 2014-08-04T00:05:26Z Gyps quit (Quit: Gyps) 2014-08-04T00:09:14Z cjh`: http://mailer.fsu.edu/~akirk/tanks/newzealand/NZSemple.jpg 2014-08-04T00:09:21Z cjh`: http://mailer.fsu.edu/~akirk/tanks/newzealand/NZ-Semple.jpg 2014-08-04T00:09:22Z Gyps joined #scheme 2014-08-04T00:09:32Z cjh`: sorry wrong window.. 2014-08-04T00:22:10Z kongtomorrow quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2014-08-04T00:30:15Z acarrico joined #scheme 2014-08-04T00:32:03Z Gyps quit (Quit: Gyps) 2014-08-04T00:32:45Z phax quit (Quit: phax) 2014-08-04T00:37:06Z githogori quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2014-08-04T00:39:02Z ijp: okay, I think I have something 2014-08-04T00:39:19Z ijp: just need to clean it up 2014-08-04T00:42:56Z githogori joined #scheme 2014-08-04T00:44:31Z jcowan: Thanks much 2014-08-04T00:46:03Z amgarchIn9 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-08-04T00:49:15Z jcowan: Another question: Are there any known advantages to binary heaps as an ordered data structure, or are they obsolete? 2014-08-04T00:52:41Z ijp: https://gist.github.com/1e0e67ff93c486f66fc8 2014-08-04T00:53:19Z ijp: all syntax-rules 2014-08-04T00:53:39Z ijp: I only remembered about oleg's ck macro after I almost rewrote it 2014-08-04T00:54:46Z jcowan: Wow. Bless you. 2014-08-04T00:57:34Z ijp: *Achievement unlocked: synthesis multiple oleg concepts in one piece of code* 2014-08-04T01:00:19Z pjb quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-08-04T01:01:27Z pjb joined #scheme 2014-08-04T01:01:51Z pjb is now known as Guest30604 2014-08-04T01:07:45Z offby1-cloud quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2014-08-04T01:18:11Z Guest30604 is now known as pjb` 2014-08-04T01:18:22Z pjb` is now known as pjb 2014-08-04T01:19:59Z davexunit quit (Quit: Later) 2014-08-04T01:23:36Z Natch quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2014-08-04T01:26:53Z zacts: I know how to access elements of an alist via assoc 2014-08-04T01:27:02Z zacts: how can I modify an element of an alist? 2014-08-04T01:27:29Z jcowan: In general, you push more stuff onto the a-list instead. 2014-08-04T01:27:44Z jcowan: However, once you have found a key, you can modify it with set-cdr!. 2014-08-04T01:27:53Z jcowan: zacts: ^^^ 2014-08-04T01:28:32Z jcowan: s/it/the pair 2014-08-04T01:29:28Z zacts: jcowan: can you provide a simple example? 2014-08-04T01:29:48Z zacts: (define my-alist '(('a . ""))) 2014-08-04T01:29:51Z ijp: rudybot: (define a (map cons '(a b c) '(1 2 3))) 2014-08-04T01:29:52Z rudybot: ijp: your sandbox is ready 2014-08-04T01:29:52Z rudybot: ijp: Done. 2014-08-04T01:30:00Z ijp: oh wait, immutables 2014-08-04T01:30:05Z ijp: rudybot: init r5rs 2014-08-04T01:30:05Z rudybot: ijp: your r5rs sandbox is ready 2014-08-04T01:30:09Z ijp: rudybot: (define a (map cons '(a b c) '(1 2 3))) 2014-08-04T01:30:09Z rudybot: ijp: Done. 2014-08-04T01:30:16Z ijp: rudybot: (assoc a 'a) 2014-08-04T01:30:16Z rudybot: ijp: error: mcar: contract violation expected: mpair? given: 'a 2014-08-04T01:30:22Z ijp: rudybot: (assoc 'a a) 2014-08-04T01:30:22Z rudybot: ijp: ; Value: (mcons 'a 1) 2014-08-04T01:30:50Z ijp: rudybot: (set-cdr! (assoc 'a a) 5) 2014-08-04T01:30:51Z rudybot: ijp: Done. 2014-08-04T01:30:55Z ijp: rudybot: (assoc 'a a) 2014-08-04T01:30:55Z rudybot: ijp: ; Value: (mcons 'a 5) 2014-08-04T01:31:02Z zacts: ah ok, neat. 2014-08-04T01:31:13Z zacts: ijp: so should I use (map cons ...) to do this? 2014-08-04T01:31:20Z zacts: how does cons create . pairs? 2014-08-04T01:31:29Z ijp: zacts: cons creates pairs 2014-08-04T01:31:38Z zacts: hm.. ok. 2014-08-04T01:31:53Z ijp: the alist you defined above is (by the standard, if not actual practice) immutable 2014-08-04T01:31:57Z Natch joined #scheme 2014-08-04T01:32:14Z zacts: ah ok, and the one you defined is mutable? 2014-08-04T01:32:17Z ijp: yes 2014-08-04T01:32:23Z zacts: ok I see. thanks. 2014-08-04T01:32:29Z ijp: zacts: alteratively, you just push a new cons onto the alist 2014-08-04T01:32:37Z jcowan: Right. Constants aren't mutable, and Racket is one of the few Schemes that enforces this. 2014-08-04T01:32:37Z ijp: rudybot: (assoc 'b a) 2014-08-04T01:32:38Z rudybot: ijp: ; Value: (mcons 'b 2) 2014-08-04T01:32:54Z ijp: rudybot: (set! a (cons 'b 10 a)) 2014-08-04T01:32:55Z rudybot: ijp: error: mcons: arity mismatch; the expected number of arguments does not match the given number expected: 2 given: 3 arguments...: 'b 10 (mcons (mcons 'a 5) (mcons (mcons 'b 2) (mcons (mcons 'c 3)))) 2014-08-04T01:33:02Z ijp: rudybot: (set! a (cons (cons 'b 10) a)) 2014-08-04T01:33:02Z rudybot: ijp: Done. 2014-08-04T01:33:08Z ijp: rudybot: (assoc 'b a) 2014-08-04T01:33:08Z rudybot: ijp: ; Value: (mcons 'b 10) 2014-08-04T01:33:13Z ijp: a 2014-08-04T01:33:14Z jcowan: rudybot: (string-set! "abcdef" 3 #\!) 2014-08-04T01:33:15Z rudybot: jcowan: your sandbox is ready 2014-08-04T01:33:15Z rudybot: jcowan: error: string-set!: contract violation expected: (and/c string? (not/c immutable?)) given: "abcdef" argument position: 1st other arguments...: 3 #\! 2014-08-04T01:33:17Z ijp: rudybot: a 2014-08-04T01:33:17Z rudybot: ijp: ; Value: (mcons (mcons 'b 10) (mcons (mcons 'a 5) (mcons (mcons 'b 2) (mcons (mcons 'c 3))))) 2014-08-04T01:33:22Z safety joined #scheme 2014-08-04T01:33:36Z jcowan: zacts: Most Schemes don't have the concept of mconses. 2014-08-04T01:33:56Z ijp: offby1: you fancy stripping those s? 2014-08-04T01:35:19Z Nizumzen quit (Quit: KVIrc 4.2.0 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/) 2014-08-04T01:35:45Z ijp: irc-process-line.rkt:94 " " -> " " 2014-08-04T01:36:48Z ijp: or perhaps "\\n" 2014-08-04T01:37:21Z zacts: ok 2014-08-04T02:02:55Z b4283 joined #scheme 2014-08-04T02:14:54Z offby1: ijp: I don't much like 'em either, but eli put 'em there 2014-08-04T02:15:07Z offby1: I seem to recall he had a good reason, although I forget what that reason was 2014-08-04T02:19:00Z zacts: https://github.com/zacts/zvim/blob/master/zvim.scm 2014-08-04T02:19:09Z zacts: so any tips with what I have so far? 2014-08-04T02:19:24Z ijp: offby1: well, the reason in the source code for not using newlines is to prevent some sort of cunning injection 2014-08-04T02:19:46Z ijp: but the above suggestions would work as well 2014-08-04T02:23:20Z ijp: hmm, now that I think about it, the continuation representation in the ck machine is kinda zipperish 2014-08-04T02:27:02Z frkout joined #scheme 2014-08-04T02:42:47Z offby1: "ck machine"? 2014-08-04T02:43:16Z ijp: offby1: see above gist 2014-08-04T02:44:13Z offby1 's eyes cross 2014-08-04T02:54:54Z jlongster joined #scheme 2014-08-04T03:16:40Z haroldwu quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2014-08-04T03:17:18Z haroldwu joined #scheme 2014-08-04T03:40:06Z Gyps joined #scheme 2014-08-04T04:50:52Z copumpkin joined #scheme 2014-08-04T04:56:29Z copumpkin left #scheme 2014-08-04T05:02:09Z yacks joined #scheme 2014-08-04T05:04:57Z Vutral joined #scheme 2014-08-04T05:05:53Z LeoNerd joined #scheme 2014-08-04T05:08:32Z Vutral quit (Excess Flood) 2014-08-04T05:15:54Z cmatei quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2014-08-04T05:19:46Z crom quit (Quit: Leaving) 2014-08-04T05:26:58Z AkashicLegend quit (Quit: AkashicLegend) 2014-08-04T05:34:01Z Gyps quit (Quit: Gyps) 2014-08-04T05:51:33Z jlongster quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-08-04T06:08:25Z dan64 quit (Quit: ZNC - http://znc.in) 2014-08-04T06:09:12Z dan64 joined #scheme 2014-08-04T06:12:06Z _will_ quit (Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.) 2014-08-04T06:12:25Z _will_ joined #scheme 2014-08-04T06:16:19Z _will_ quit (Client Quit) 2014-08-04T06:16:38Z _will_ joined #scheme 2014-08-04T06:44:20Z Okasu joined #scheme 2014-08-04T06:45:08Z kongtomorrow joined #scheme 2014-08-04T07:06:40Z yacks quit (Quit: Leaving) 2014-08-04T07:08:38Z mrowe is now known as mrowe_away 2014-08-04T07:18:48Z jusss joined #scheme 2014-08-04T08:01:41Z kvda joined #scheme 2014-08-04T08:07:54Z cdidd quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2014-08-04T08:14:35Z wingo joined #scheme 2014-08-04T08:35:38Z leppie quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2014-08-04T08:36:17Z yacks joined #scheme 2014-08-04T08:40:08Z kvda quit (Quit: z____z) 2014-08-04T08:44:29Z pnkfelix joined #scheme 2014-08-04T08:44:58Z kongtomorrow quit 2014-08-04T08:50:08Z kvda joined #scheme 2014-08-04T08:59:00Z DGASAU` joined #scheme 2014-08-04T09:00:27Z DGASAU quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2014-08-04T09:06:32Z DGASAU` is now known as DGASAU 2014-08-04T09:07:33Z przl joined #scheme 2014-08-04T09:12:30Z omefire quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2014-08-04T09:12:37Z cdidd joined #scheme 2014-08-04T09:30:44Z omefire joined #scheme 2014-08-04T09:36:41Z robot-beethoven quit (Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)) 2014-08-04T09:39:22Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-08-04T09:57:03Z przl joined #scheme 2014-08-04T10:05:54Z jusss quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-08-04T10:24:54Z kvda quit (Quit: x___x) 2014-08-04T10:26:17Z vraaid joined #scheme 2014-08-04T10:26:21Z vraid quit (Disconnected by services) 2014-08-04T10:26:22Z vraaid is now known as vraid 2014-08-04T10:35:24Z vraid quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2014-08-04T10:37:44Z vraid joined #scheme 2014-08-04T10:38:05Z kuribas joined #scheme 2014-08-04T10:43:09Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2014-08-04T10:43:31Z ANGRYSTEVE joined #scheme 2014-08-04T10:43:32Z ANGRYSTEVE quit (Changing host) 2014-08-04T10:43:32Z ANGRYSTEVE joined #scheme 2014-08-04T10:49:04Z cmatei joined #scheme 2014-08-04T10:49:05Z Vutral joined #scheme 2014-08-04T10:54:39Z Vutral quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2014-08-04T11:03:10Z b4283 quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2014-08-04T11:09:49Z phax joined #scheme 2014-08-04T11:16:51Z tadni joined #scheme 2014-08-04T11:17:22Z fikusz quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-08-04T11:18:48Z phax quit (Quit: phax) 2014-08-04T11:28:11Z ARM9 joined #scheme 2014-08-04T11:39:29Z przl joined #scheme 2014-08-04T11:43:33Z taylanub: ijp: the other day you said using Cheney-on-MTA for a Scheme->CPS->JS translation, or did I misinterpret that? if I didn't, how exactly does that work; I thought Cheney-on-MTA relies on low-level stuff like knowing whether you filled a certain portion of the stack? 2014-08-04T11:44:03Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-08-04T11:44:18Z tadni quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-08-04T11:44:51Z tadni joined #scheme 2014-08-04T11:46:15Z taylanub finds Spock 2014-08-04T11:46:30Z pjdelport: Cheney on the MTA is pretty specific to C (or very C-like languages, at least); i don't know how you'd apply it to JS. 2014-08-04T11:47:30Z taylanub: hm, maybe something something ASM.JS/emscripten 2014-08-04T11:47:40Z przl joined #scheme 2014-08-04T11:50:16Z ARM9: something something llvm 2014-08-04T11:50:47Z taylanub: emscripten is the llvm->js transcompiler 2014-08-04T11:51:55Z taylanub: then I guess the question is how emscripten handles allocation and pointers 2014-08-04T11:52:24Z taylanub: stack allocation is enough for Cheney, right? no malloc() needed? 2014-08-04T11:52:50Z fizzie: A giant typed array (and indices to its elements) is what emscripten does for memory. 2014-08-04T11:58:36Z fizzie: And perhaps the Cheney-on-the-MTA comment could just refer to the part where it "resets" the call stack only every now and then (instead of, say, a trampoline), and not include the "run a tracing GC on the data" part. (Disclaimer: wasn't there, haven't thought this through.) 2014-08-04T11:59:57Z ijp: taylanub: SML/NL-like would have been more accurate 2014-08-04T12:00:00Z ijp: NJ* 2014-08-04T12:00:15Z Sgeo quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-08-04T12:01:30Z ijp: since js already has a gc you may as well use that; the "jump off the empire state building" was the important part 2014-08-04T12:02:03Z fizzie: Oh, I guessed right? 2014-08-04T12:02:19Z ijp: fizzie: your prize is available in the lobby 2014-08-04T12:02:25Z fizzie: Yay. 2014-08-04T12:02:33Z ijp: ...it's a dirty lobby 2014-08-04T12:05:13Z wingo: all the bodies 2014-08-04T12:05:35Z wingo: people keep jumping off the surrounding buildings 2014-08-04T12:06:42Z ijp: maybe they are racing? 2014-08-04T12:08:04Z taylanub: so does emscripten also divide this JS memory into stack and heap and offer malloc()? 2014-08-04T12:08:21Z taylanub: well that's probably irrelevant to the topic, though I'm curious 2014-08-04T12:10:53Z wingo: yes 2014-08-04T12:10:58Z petercom1and joined #scheme 2014-08-04T12:11:21Z wingo: hum, i don't know about stack allocation though 2014-08-04T12:11:25Z bit`1 joined #scheme 2014-08-04T12:11:42Z wingo: i don't know if emscripten maintains a parallel stack in the typedarray heap 2014-08-04T12:12:19Z wingo: it would only be for allocation though, as the control-flow aspect of the stack is handled by the js stack 2014-08-04T12:12:35Z sstrickl_ joined #scheme 2014-08-04T12:13:06Z alezost` joined #scheme 2014-08-04T12:13:12Z evhan` joined #scheme 2014-08-04T12:13:13Z tadni` joined #scheme 2014-08-04T12:13:21Z alezost quit (Disconnected by services) 2014-08-04T12:13:24Z alezost` is now known as alezost 2014-08-04T12:13:37Z ananna joined #scheme 2014-08-04T12:13:38Z ananna quit (Changing host) 2014-08-04T12:13:38Z ananna joined #scheme 2014-08-04T12:14:15Z kbtr_ joined #scheme 2014-08-04T12:15:46Z akp_ joined #scheme 2014-08-04T12:16:34Z fizzie: I think it does, since it needs to allow for stuff like passing pointers to local variables. 2014-08-04T12:18:00Z fizzie: http://ryandao.net/portal/content/javascript-compile-target-performance-breakthrough seems to have some details, search for "STACKTOP" for example. 2014-08-04T12:18:07Z rudybot: http://tinyurl.com/nkymnhx 2014-08-04T12:19:02Z tadni quit (*.net *.split) 2014-08-04T12:19:02Z githogori quit (*.net *.split) 2014-08-04T12:19:02Z kbtr quit (*.net *.split) 2014-08-04T12:19:02Z zarchne quit (*.net *.split) 2014-08-04T12:19:02Z bit` quit (*.net *.split) 2014-08-04T12:19:02Z anannie quit (*.net *.split) 2014-08-04T12:19:02Z petercommand quit (*.net *.split) 2014-08-04T12:19:02Z shardz quit (*.net *.split) 2014-08-04T12:19:02Z akp quit (*.net *.split) 2014-08-04T12:19:02Z evhan quit (*.net *.split) 2014-08-04T12:19:03Z sstrickl_ is now known as sstrickl 2014-08-04T12:19:55Z taylanub couldn't find docs on implementation details; emscripten docs seem heavily under construction .. 2014-08-04T12:19:55Z sstrickl left #scheme 2014-08-04T12:21:19Z petercom1and is now known as petercommand 2014-08-04T12:21:21Z taylanub: From that article: "Garbage collection blocks. The more garbage to collect, the slower it is." Isn't the second sentence plain wrong? 2014-08-04T12:21:58Z shardz joined #scheme 2014-08-04T12:22:35Z ijp: taylanub: presumably they mean that more garbage = more gc = less time on "real" work 2014-08-04T12:22:58Z taylanub: ah, understandable 2014-08-04T12:23:07Z githogori joined #scheme 2014-08-04T12:25:42Z bjz_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-08-04T12:25:58Z bjz joined #scheme 2014-08-04T12:26:18Z zarchne joined #scheme 2014-08-04T12:47:18Z oldskirt_ quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2014-08-04T12:47:18Z oldskirt joined #scheme 2014-08-04T12:49:31Z pgomes joined #scheme 2014-08-04T13:00:29Z pjb: taylanub: yes, it's wrong, because some garbage collectors actually work in O(live objects), so the more garbage, the fastest they work. 2014-08-04T13:01:03Z pjb: Also, not all GC algorithm block. There are a lot of GC that are incremental, or work in parallel, without evern blocking, or blocking very little. 2014-08-04T13:01:14Z vraid: pjb: more garbage in relation to total allocated memory, that is? 2014-08-04T13:01:22Z pjb: yes. 2014-08-04T13:01:43Z pjb: For some GC, the number of dead objects is just irrelevant. 2014-08-04T13:01:55Z pjb: for example, copying garbage collectors. 2014-08-04T13:02:54Z davexunit joined #scheme 2014-08-04T13:03:23Z taylanub: pjb: yup, that's what I had in mind. we could assume good faith and say the author actually meant "more allocation" but they were probably just ignorant on GC (like most people :( I'm halfway there...) 2014-08-04T13:05:48Z b4283 joined #scheme 2014-08-04T13:07:40Z tadni` is now known as tadni 2014-08-04T13:12:34Z tadni quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-08-04T13:15:19Z pjdelport: GHC is an example of a GC that works like that: http://www.haskell.org/haskellwiki/GHC/Memory_Management 2014-08-04T13:16:07Z pjdelport: When the nursery is full, only live objects are copied out: the more garbage there is, the more efficient it effectively becomes. 2014-08-04T13:16:42Z pjdelport: In the limit where the entire nursery is garbage, it effectively just becomes an allocation pointer reset. 2014-08-04T13:20:15Z taylanub: and since the language endorses purely functional style and copying instead of mutation, they don't need write barriers! 2014-08-04T13:20:20Z taylanub: (or something) 2014-08-04T13:22:58Z tadni joined #scheme 2014-08-04T13:23:40Z rtra quit (Quit: ZNC - http://znc.in) 2014-08-04T13:26:55Z DrDuck: What's really the difference between lambda and a function? Now that Java and C++ support lambda, what is the benefit opposed to how functions were used before in those languages? 2014-08-04T13:27:57Z ARM9: a lambda is an anonymous function, I suppose 2014-08-04T13:28:13Z ARM9: don't know how they implement lambdas 2014-08-04T13:29:59Z ijp: DrDuck: lambda makes functions 2014-08-04T13:30:00Z pgomes left #scheme 2014-08-04T13:30:04Z pjdelport: DrDuck: I don't know about C++, but Java's lambda's are still a bit hobbled: you cannot reference mutable variables with them. 2014-08-04T13:30:20Z ijp: so there is no difference 2014-08-04T13:30:22Z tadni` joined #scheme 2014-08-04T13:30:48Z anannie joined #scheme 2014-08-04T13:30:48Z anannie quit (Changing host) 2014-08-04T13:30:48Z anannie joined #scheme 2014-08-04T13:30:52Z ARM9: lambdas in c++ makes using some iterators less painful at least 2014-08-04T13:31:08Z omefire quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-08-04T13:31:09Z ananna quit (Write error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-08-04T13:31:09Z tadni quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-08-04T13:31:12Z b4283 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-08-04T13:31:17Z ijp: and the benefit is always that you don't need to name trivial functions 2014-08-04T13:31:18Z pjdelport: DrDuck: So they only give you a nicer syntax for Java's old inner classes, and not the expressivity of first-class functions. 2014-08-04T13:31:23Z ANGRYSTEVE quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-08-04T13:31:23Z wingo quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-08-04T13:31:23Z Rodya_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-08-04T13:31:23Z copec quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-08-04T13:31:26Z b4283 joined #scheme 2014-08-04T13:31:28Z ivan\ quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-08-04T13:31:30Z copec_ joined #scheme 2014-08-04T13:31:54Z copec_ is now known as copec 2014-08-04T13:32:00Z wingo joined #scheme 2014-08-04T13:32:03Z ivan\ joined #scheme 2014-08-04T13:32:28Z ANGRYSTEVE joined #scheme 2014-08-04T13:32:30Z Rodya_ joined #scheme 2014-08-04T13:32:31Z DrDuck: So support for lambda in those languages aren't really all that much to be happy about after all? 2014-08-04T13:33:02Z DrDuck: s/isn't/aren't 2014-08-04T13:33:28Z ARM9: lets you do useless stuff like auto f = [](){std::cout << "hello world";}; f(); 2014-08-04T13:34:20Z ARM9: of course you can make more useful things with it 2014-08-04T13:35:31Z ARM9: actually [](){std::cout << "hello world";}(); 2014-08-04T13:35:31Z ARM9: would be a better demonstration 2014-08-04T13:35:50Z Vutral joined #scheme 2014-08-04T13:36:07Z ijp quit (Quit: This ijp has ended peacefully) 2014-08-04T13:36:51Z pjdelport: Apparently C++ lets you control the full range of what scope gets referenced, and whether it's by reference or by copying. 2014-08-04T13:36:58Z pjdelport: Which sounds about right for C++ :) 2014-08-04T13:39:18Z ijp joined #scheme 2014-08-04T13:40:41Z Vutral quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2014-08-04T13:43:07Z taylanub: DrDuck: let me start with a nitpick: originally "lambda" is just the syntax keyword for the special form that creates _procedures_. so "a lambda" is generally a misnomer, though it could refer to a lambda form AKA a lambda expression i.e. the code snippet "(lambda (blah bluh) blip blop)". nowadays people often say "lambda" to mean "closure" 2014-08-04T13:45:03Z taylanub: the difference between a (non-closure) function and a closure is that the latter "closes over" its lexical scope, giving you that intuitive behavior that allows stuff like (let ((x _whatever_)) (lambda () #| this closes over x |# (+ x 10))), which in the "stack model" of most C implementations would segfault when the created procedure is called, due to the variable "x" being destroyed right after 2014-08-04T13:45:03Z taylanub: the procedure is created and returned from that `let' form 2014-08-04T13:45:31Z omefire joined #scheme 2014-08-04T13:45:33Z taylanub: (P.S.: #| blah bluh |# is comment syntax) 2014-08-04T13:48:49Z taylanub: those plebeians rediscovering FP after 40 years and then shitting over our whole terminology! :P 2014-08-04T13:51:27Z jcowan quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2014-08-04T14:06:37Z leppie joined #scheme 2014-08-04T14:13:57Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-08-04T14:21:49Z jcowan joined #scheme 2014-08-04T14:36:11Z taylanub quit (Disconnected by services) 2014-08-04T14:36:47Z taylanub joined #scheme 2014-08-04T14:48:23Z jlongster joined #scheme 2014-08-04T15:01:24Z blackwolf joined #scheme 2014-08-04T15:17:58Z oldskirt_ joined #scheme 2014-08-04T15:18:11Z przl joined #scheme 2014-08-04T15:20:33Z oldskirt quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-08-04T15:26:17Z Nizumzen joined #scheme 2014-08-04T15:27:21Z DreamLinuxer quit (Quit: leaving) 2014-08-04T15:30:25Z kuribas quit (Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)) 2014-08-04T15:33:41Z zz_jrhorn424 is now known as jrhorn424 2014-08-04T15:33:42Z blackwolf quit (Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)) 2014-08-04T15:43:12Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2014-08-04T15:47:21Z dsevilla joined #scheme 2014-08-04T15:54:56Z dsevilla quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2014-08-04T15:55:14Z oldskirt joined #scheme 2014-08-04T15:56:38Z oldskirt_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2014-08-04T16:05:15Z jlongster quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2014-08-04T16:06:16Z amgarchIn9 joined #scheme 2014-08-04T16:09:58Z jeapostrophe joined #scheme 2014-08-04T16:10:01Z jeapostrophe quit (Changing host) 2014-08-04T16:10:01Z jeapostrophe joined #scheme 2014-08-04T16:17:38Z Nizumzen quit (Quit: KVIrc 4.2.0 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/) 2014-08-04T16:18:36Z przl joined #scheme 2014-08-04T16:43:45Z jlongster joined #scheme 2014-08-04T16:52:40Z jcowan: arrgh, no way to print threads from Google Groups 2014-08-04T17:00:37Z amgarchIn9 quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-08-04T17:11:33Z tadni` quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-08-04T17:14:12Z sstrickl_ joined #scheme 2014-08-04T17:15:26Z kongtomorrow joined #scheme 2014-08-04T17:17:01Z sheilong joined #scheme 2014-08-04T17:27:39Z petercommand quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-08-04T17:28:05Z petercommand joined #scheme 2014-08-04T17:38:27Z tadni joined #scheme 2014-08-04T17:39:28Z jeapostrophe quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2014-08-04T17:46:54Z fikusz joined #scheme 2014-08-04T17:46:57Z leppie quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2014-08-04T17:49:43Z zematis joined #scheme 2014-08-04T17:49:49Z sstrickl_ quit (Quit: sstrickl_) 2014-08-04T17:50:26Z Vutral joined #scheme 2014-08-04T17:50:26Z Vutral quit (Changing host) 2014-08-04T17:50:26Z Vutral joined #scheme 2014-08-04T17:51:18Z leppie joined #scheme 2014-08-04T17:56:53Z Vutral quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2014-08-04T17:58:52Z daviid joined #scheme 2014-08-04T18:00:47Z barryfm joined #scheme 2014-08-04T18:01:28Z barryfm left #scheme 2014-08-04T18:13:16Z ddp joined #scheme 2014-08-04T18:13:16Z ddp quit (Client Quit) 2014-08-04T18:15:55Z b4283 quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2014-08-04T18:22:27Z turbofail: what, you want to dump information out into meat space like some kind of barbarian? 2014-08-04T18:24:26Z turbofail: that's almost as barbaric as asking to read threads without the use of javascript 2014-08-04T18:27:13Z amgarchIn9 joined #scheme 2014-08-04T18:36:34Z kongtomorrow quit 2014-08-04T18:43:59Z kongtomorrow joined #scheme 2014-08-04T18:55:03Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-08-04T18:55:41Z przl joined #scheme 2014-08-04T18:57:45Z jcowan: Now, it's translating from some small number of dpi to 600 dpi. 2014-08-04T18:57:49Z jcowan: s/Now/No 2014-08-04T18:59:55Z blackwolf joined #scheme 2014-08-04T19:00:19Z kongtomorrow quit 2014-08-04T19:05:57Z araujo quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2014-08-04T19:07:36Z dmiles_afk joined #scheme 2014-08-04T19:16:00Z jlongster quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2014-08-04T19:19:04Z zarchne quit (Quit: Ex-Chat) 2014-08-04T19:19:24Z zarchne joined #scheme 2014-08-04T19:21:22Z pnkfelix quit (Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 24.3.50.1) 2014-08-04T19:31:57Z hiroakip joined #scheme 2014-08-04T19:45:45Z jlongster joined #scheme 2014-08-04T19:46:55Z cdan joined #scheme 2014-08-04T19:50:08Z theseb joined #scheme 2014-08-04T19:51:04Z zarchne is now known as zarchne_ 2014-08-04T19:52:02Z wingo quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2014-08-04T19:55:44Z kongtomorrow joined #scheme 2014-08-04T19:59:08Z zarchne_ is now known as zarchne 2014-08-04T20:00:56Z jlongster quit (Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)) 2014-08-04T20:03:28Z blackwolf quit (Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)) 2014-08-04T20:08:10Z wingo joined #scheme 2014-08-04T20:10:09Z sstrickl joined #scheme 2014-08-04T20:18:14Z jlongster joined #scheme 2014-08-04T20:24:59Z cdan: is there a procedure called make-queue in MIT Scheme ? 2014-08-04T20:27:24Z taylanub: cdan: I'm pretty sure you can find MIT/GNU Scheme documentation via Google at worst 2014-08-04T20:28:10Z cdan: taylanub, did that but was not able to find make-queue in any of the documentations, though this seems to be defined in my REPL environment 2014-08-04T20:28:52Z taylanub: hm. does it have an Info manual? if so, you could search the "index" via the key i 2014-08-04T20:28:52Z cdan: taylanub, I would like to know how to use it 2014-08-04T20:29:03Z taylanub: either in Emacs's Info-mode, or with the standalone info viewer 2014-08-04T20:29:32Z cdan: (I am a beginner) let me try 2014-08-04T20:30:02Z taylanub: well I just found http://www.gnu.org/software/mit-scheme/documentation/mit-scheme-ref/Binding-Index.html and there's no `make-queue' there 2014-08-04T20:30:05Z rudybot: http://tinyurl.com/ln43kpa 2014-08-04T20:30:38Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2014-08-04T20:31:02Z cdan: yes, this is why it looks strange to me, the documentation says nothing about such a procedure 2014-08-04T20:31:33Z taylanub: did you load some module? is it still there when you start a fresh REPL? (even then it could be that your configuration/startup file or so loads some module...) 2014-08-04T20:32:10Z cdan: but I have it in my environment and I am pretty sure I have not defined it 2014-08-04T20:32:42Z cdan: taylanub, yes, still there and it says #[compiled-procedure 11 ("queue" #x1) #xc #x324a80] 2014-08-04T20:33:16Z cdan: unfortunately (pp make-queue) gives me no further information 2014-08-04T20:33:17Z taylanub: maybe we can ask Riastradh (ping). he's the maintainer of MIT Scheme. 2014-08-04T20:34:03Z cdan: taylanub, is there a way to track down the module/file a procedure was loaded from ? 2014-08-04T20:34:05Z taylanub: I was going to install it out of curiosity but strangely Debian only seems to have a package for its documentation and not for itself... or I'm missing something 2014-08-04T20:34:25Z taylanub: cdan: don't know, never really used MIT Scheme 2014-08-04T20:36:38Z Riastradh: Hi, what's up? 2014-08-04T20:36:56Z taylanub: Riastradh: we were wondering where the binding `make-queue' comes from in a default REPL session 2014-08-04T20:37:04Z taylanub: it's not in the binding index of the manual 2014-08-04T20:37:10Z Riastradh: It's a simple fifo queue abstraction. 2014-08-04T20:37:24Z Riastradh: (define q (make-queue)) (enqueue! q 'foo) (enqueue! q 'bar) (dequeue! q) => foo 2014-08-04T20:37:38Z tadni quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-08-04T20:38:02Z taylanub: so documentation was deemed unnecessary? 2014-08-04T20:38:15Z Riastradh: cdan, if (pp make-queue) gives no further information, are you sure you have debugging data installed in the same place as everything else? 2014-08-04T20:38:33Z Riastradh: taylanub, dunno, I didn't make the queue stuff. 2014-08-04T20:39:24Z przl joined #scheme 2014-08-04T20:39:46Z cdan: Riastradh, I am afraid I know nothing about debugging data :( 2014-08-04T20:40:10Z Riastradh: cdan, the .bci files that should be installed alongside Scheme. 2014-08-04T20:40:27Z cdan: Riastradh, let me check 2014-08-04T20:40:42Z Riastradh: In /usr/local/lib/mit-scheme-${ARCH}/(runtime|edwin|...)/*.bci by default. 2014-08-04T20:40:50Z Riastradh: E.g., /usr/local/lib/mit-scheme-x86-64/runtime/queue.bci. 2014-08-04T20:42:12Z cdan: Riastradh, I am installing it right now 2014-08-04T20:43:09Z cdan: Riastradh, yes, now pp gives me more information 2014-08-04T20:43:13Z Riastradh: OK. 2014-08-04T20:43:25Z cdan: Riastradh, is there a way to find out which file/module defines this procedure ? 2014-08-04T20:44:06Z Riastradh: Not precisely, but if you see the `"queue"' part of the way it is printed, that means it was in a file called queue.scm. 2014-08-04T20:44:20Z Riastradh: I happen to know it's in src/runtime/queue.scm. 2014-08-04T20:47:57Z evhan` is now known as evhan 2014-08-04T20:48:05Z cdan: Riastradh, but since it is not listed in the mit-scheme-ref documentation, I suppose it is not intended for public use. Am I right ? 2014-08-04T20:50:23Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-08-04T20:51:47Z cdan: Riastradh, thank you for your help 2014-08-04T20:52:55Z wingo quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2014-08-04T20:57:57Z araujo joined #scheme 2014-08-04T20:58:35Z davexunit quit (Quit: Later) 2014-08-04T20:58:49Z tadni joined #scheme 2014-08-04T21:00:43Z MouldyOldBones joined #scheme 2014-08-04T21:02:33Z jlongster quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-08-04T21:04:52Z jlongster joined #scheme 2014-08-04T21:10:22Z cdan quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-08-04T21:11:54Z Vutral joined #scheme 2014-08-04T21:15:06Z Vutral quit (Excess Flood) 2014-08-04T21:18:29Z jlongster quit (Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)) 2014-08-04T21:33:41Z jessup joined #scheme 2014-08-04T21:33:50Z oldskirt is now known as oldskirt_ 2014-08-04T21:42:43Z davexunit joined #scheme 2014-08-04T21:44:37Z emma quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2014-08-04T21:45:14Z zematis quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2014-08-04T21:46:35Z Nizumzen joined #scheme 2014-08-04T21:47:49Z ARM9 quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2014-08-04T21:49:04Z necronian quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2014-08-04T21:51:00Z Sgeo joined #scheme 2014-08-04T21:52:07Z necronian joined #scheme 2014-08-04T21:53:18Z oldskirt joined #scheme 2014-08-04T21:55:02Z oldskirt_ quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2014-08-04T21:56:35Z przl joined #scheme 2014-08-04T22:00:57Z jcowan: taylanub: ping 2014-08-04T22:01:02Z taylanub: pong 2014-08-04T22:01:12Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2014-08-04T22:01:38Z jcowan: as it happens, I have just written a queue proposal, would you feel like taking a look at it? 2014-08-04T22:03:30Z jcowan: I am very happy with your structures proposal and have added a link to it from NumericVectorsCowan 2014-08-04T22:03:39Z jcowan: Queues at http://trac.sacrideo.us/wg/wiki/QueuesCowan 2014-08-04T22:04:09Z taylanub: Others could probably give better feedback. I occassionally delve deeply into a topic that intrigues me a lot but I'm sure many other people around here are plenty more experienced than me in general. :) 2014-08-04T22:04:33Z taylanub: But sure, I'll take a look too. 2014-08-04T22:04:57Z jcowan: It's just the traditional "tconc cell" (pointer to first and last element of a list), but given a disjoint type. 2014-08-04T22:05:11Z jcowan: Minimalists will be happy to see that I have not run overboard with procedures this time. 2014-08-04T22:07:57Z taylanub: well I *do* see a lot of procedures but I suppose that's because simple queue APIs tend to just use lists so they get 90% of the procedures for free 2014-08-04T22:10:08Z kongtomorrow quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-08-04T22:10:18Z kongtomo_ joined #scheme 2014-08-04T22:10:23Z jrhorn424 is now known as zz_jrhorn424 2014-08-04T22:12:23Z jcowan: Just so. 2014-08-04T22:12:52Z jcowan: YOu use queue->list to expose the underlying list, and then list->queue to wrap the transformed result in a queue, or list->queue! to do it destructively. 2014-08-04T22:15:09Z taylanub: are other data structures also supposed to get 'map!' procedures or is queue-map! somehow special? 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For example, (define (f x) (car x)) (set! car 0) (f '(1 2)) => ? 2014-08-05T10:05:56Z BossKonaSegwaY joined #scheme 2014-08-05T10:14:49Z robot-beethoven quit (Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)) 2014-08-05T10:15:42Z ANGRYSTEVE joined #scheme 2014-08-05T10:15:42Z ANGRYSTEVE quit (Changing host) 2014-08-05T10:15:42Z ANGRYSTEVE joined #scheme 2014-08-05T10:19:04Z dmiles_afk quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-08-05T10:19:51Z dmiles_afk joined #scheme 2014-08-05T10:32:04Z nojb quit (Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)) 2014-08-05T10:35:11Z jusss quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-08-05T10:41:57Z joneshf-laptop joined #scheme 2014-08-05T10:42:05Z joneshf joined #scheme 2014-08-05T10:45:56Z b4283 quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2014-08-05T10:51:15Z MouldyOldBones quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-08-05T10:53:56Z ARM9 joined #scheme 2014-08-05T11:00:54Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2014-08-05T11:12:38Z MouldyOldBones joined #scheme 2014-08-05T11:24:06Z jessup joined #scheme 2014-08-05T11:26:20Z przl joined #scheme 2014-08-05T11:30:10Z ijp joined #scheme 2014-08-05T11:36:03Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-08-05T11:36:16Z jessup quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2014-08-05T11:58:19Z Cheery: I got the cps compiler done. now implementing my first lisp runtime. 2014-08-05T11:58:46Z Cheery: https://github.com/cheery/language/tree/master/snakelisp 2014-08-05T11:59:27Z Cheery: in middle of implementing file-write and stdout 2014-08-05T12:00:26Z Cheery: but I'm bit on the lazy mood. ^^ trying to pull myself to write the 15 lines of C it requires to do those without an ffi. 2014-08-05T12:02:18Z Cheery: it's weird because it starts to feel almost like an identity 2014-08-05T12:02:31Z Sgeo_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-08-05T12:04:29Z Cheery: it's so easy to modify that change, every implementation reflects their user. 2014-08-05T12:05:00Z ijp: user singular 2014-08-05T12:08:07Z pnkfelix joined #scheme 2014-08-05T12:09:49Z Cheery: it sounds horrible at first. one person codes that thing, another that thing. the codebases do not fit together. 2014-08-05T12:10:08Z przl joined #scheme 2014-08-05T12:10:25Z Cheery: but isn't that true globally? one guy codes C, other guy codes python, third guy codes ruby, javascript, etc. 2014-08-05T12:10:35Z Cheery: then there's dialects inside languages 2014-08-05T12:10:54Z Cheery: python+twisted, jquery, bunch of other stupid 'frameworks' 2014-08-05T12:11:01Z Cheery: unity3d C# vs. normal C# 2014-08-05T12:11:09Z Cheery: they're all incompatible 2014-08-05T12:12:58Z ijp: yeah, which is why no-one writes large codebases using many different libraries... 2014-08-05T12:13:09Z ijp: oh wait 2014-08-05T12:13:57Z ANGRYSTEVE quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-08-05T12:14:17Z Cheery: well even libraries sometimes are incompatible. for example if no common vector library exists, and they use different ones. 2014-08-05T12:14:54Z ijp: which is a problem only in scheme 2014-08-05T12:15:38Z Cheery: incorrect 2014-08-05T12:15:58Z Cheery: I've seen it in javascript and python at least 2014-08-05T12:16:21Z ijp: python has a builtin list type which handles this use case 2014-08-05T12:16:38Z ijp: for js, you can basically claim jquery is part of the standard library at this point 2014-08-05T12:17:41Z Cheery: there are "solutions", but so there are in lisp languages. 2014-08-05T12:19:55Z ARM9 quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2014-08-05T12:21:33Z ijp quit (Quit: brb) 2014-08-05T12:23:20Z ijp joined #scheme 2014-08-05T12:45:07Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2014-08-05T12:49:18Z przl joined #scheme 2014-08-05T12:55:39Z davexunit joined #scheme 2014-08-05T13:09:07Z pjdelport: It's a problem everywhere, and takes work to solve. 2014-08-05T13:09:25Z pjdelport: Work and cooperation, which is more of a cultural and social problem than a technical one. 2014-08-05T13:10:29Z pjdelport: E.g. in Python, the scientific user community put a lot of effort into unifying the different array / linear algebra libraries into NumPy. 2014-08-05T13:11:10Z pjdelport: (There used to be Numarray and Numeric, too.) 2014-08-05T13:11:39Z b4283 joined #scheme 2014-08-05T13:13:42Z _will_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-08-05T13:13:49Z _will_ joined #scheme 2014-08-05T13:14:33Z drinkcoffee quit (*.net *.split) 2014-08-05T13:14:33Z xenophon quit (*.net *.split) 2014-08-05T13:14:33Z dmiles_afk quit (*.net *.split) 2014-08-05T13:14:33Z omefire quit (*.net *.split) 2014-08-05T13:14:33Z DGASAU quit (*.net *.split) 2014-08-05T13:14:33Z DKordic` quit (*.net *.split) 2014-08-05T13:14:33Z tadni quit (*.net *.split) 2014-08-05T13:14:33Z copec quit (*.net *.split) 2014-08-05T13:14:33Z ft quit (*.net *.split) 2014-08-05T13:14:33Z Kruppe quit (*.net *.split) 2014-08-05T13:14:34Z waxysubs quit (*.net *.split) 2014-08-05T13:14:34Z b_jonas quit (*.net *.split) 2014-08-05T13:14:34Z kilimanjaro quit (*.net *.split) 2014-08-05T13:14:34Z zbigniew_ quit (*.net *.split) 2014-08-05T13:14:34Z klutometis quit (*.net *.split) 2014-08-05T13:14:34Z ineiros quit (*.net *.split) 2014-08-05T13:14:34Z gnomon quit (*.net *.split) 2014-08-05T13:14:34Z cibs quit (*.net *.split) 2014-08-05T13:14:34Z tali713 quit (*.net *.split) 2014-08-05T13:15:42Z dmiles_afk joined #scheme 2014-08-05T13:15:42Z omefire joined #scheme 2014-08-05T13:15:42Z DGASAU joined #scheme 2014-08-05T13:15:42Z DKordic` joined #scheme 2014-08-05T13:15:42Z tadni joined #scheme 2014-08-05T13:15:42Z copec joined #scheme 2014-08-05T13:15:42Z cibs joined #scheme 2014-08-05T13:15:42Z drinkcoffee joined #scheme 2014-08-05T13:15:42Z ft joined #scheme 2014-08-05T13:15:42Z xenophon joined #scheme 2014-08-05T13:15:42Z Kruppe joined #scheme 2014-08-05T13:15:42Z waxysubs joined #scheme 2014-08-05T13:15:42Z b_jonas joined #scheme 2014-08-05T13:15:42Z kilimanjaro joined #scheme 2014-08-05T13:15:42Z zbigniew_ joined #scheme 2014-08-05T13:15:42Z klutometis joined #scheme 2014-08-05T13:15:42Z ineiros joined #scheme 2014-08-05T13:15:42Z gnomon joined #scheme 2014-08-05T13:15:42Z tali713 joined #scheme 2014-08-05T13:15:43Z rudybot bows deeply before his master, inventor of incubot 2014-08-05T13:16:33Z xyh joined #scheme 2014-08-05T13:16:42Z xyh left #scheme 2014-08-05T13:20:13Z _will_ quit (Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.) 2014-08-05T13:20:38Z nisstyre quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2014-08-05T13:22:14Z samth: Alestan: see Racket, in particular the macro stepper in DrRacket 2014-08-05T13:49:23Z nisstyre joined #scheme 2014-08-05T14:01:15Z vanila joined #scheme 2014-08-05T14:01:20Z vanila: how do I get shift/reset in chicken scheme? 2014-08-05T14:03:20Z mario-goulart: vanila: maybe with http://wiki.call-cc.org/eggref/4/F-operator (I have never used it, though) 2014-08-05T14:05:49Z pjdelport: You can hack it in terms of call/cc, if you're feeling quick&dirty enough: http://mumble.net/~campbell/scheme/shift-reset.scm 2014-08-05T14:06:03Z vanila: ok cheers both 2014-08-05T14:07:33Z asumu quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-08-05T14:08:50Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2014-08-05T14:09:23Z asumu joined #scheme 2014-08-05T14:11:26Z zacts quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2014-08-05T14:13:15Z zacts_ joined #scheme 2014-08-05T14:15:41Z jusss joined #scheme 2014-08-05T14:16:38Z przl joined #scheme 2014-08-05T14:36:08Z taylanub quit (Disconnected by services) 2014-08-05T14:36:41Z taylanub joined #scheme 2014-08-05T14:43:32Z theseb joined #scheme 2014-08-05T14:58:16Z Cheery: umm.. 2014-08-05T14:58:23Z Cheery: (call/cc call/cc) 2014-08-05T14:58:45Z Cheery: this was in the exercises, I had to analyse it on paper to understand what it does 2014-08-05T14:59:02Z Cheery: lets first break this. 2014-08-05T14:59:19Z Cheery: (call/cc cont call/cc) 2014-08-05T15:00:00Z Cheery: which is equivalent to: (call/cc (lambda () nil) cont) 2014-08-05T15:00:02Z Cheery: right? 2014-08-05T15:00:45Z vanila: what about CPS transforming it? I haven't solved this but that would be my strategy 2014-08-05T15:01:12Z Shadox joined #scheme 2014-08-05T15:01:36Z Cheery: hmm.. Found scheme interpreter in web. trying it 2014-08-05T15:02:20Z ijp: it's more obvious if you rewrite it as (call/cc (lambda (k) (call/cc (lambda (k2) (k2 k))))) 2014-08-05T15:02:30Z ijp: er (k k2) 2014-08-05T15:04:23Z vanila: I forgot what the CPS definition of cwcc is 2014-08-05T15:04:44Z Cheery: ijp: what's the cps definition af call/cc? 2014-08-05T15:06:19Z Cheery: http://c2.com/cgi/wiki?CallWithCurrentContinuation 2014-08-05T15:06:24Z Cheery: is the thing correct that's there? 2014-08-05T15:07:17Z Cheery: the consumer gets the current continuation I see 2014-08-05T15:07:31Z vanila: (define (cwcc f cc) (f (lambda (x _) (cc x)) cc)) 2014-08-05T15:07:31Z vanila: (define (cps-call/cc k f) (f k (lambda (k1 v) (k v))))) 2014-08-05T15:07:32Z ijp: the definition there is correct 2014-08-05T15:07:34Z vanila: comparisong with what I came up with 2014-08-05T15:07:54Z pjdelport: (call/cc call/cc) calls the current continuation with itself. 2014-08-05T15:08:12Z ijp: pjdelport: I hoped they would get that from the eta expanded version, and noting that k = k2 2014-08-05T15:08:18Z pjdelport: IOW, wherever it appears, it reifies its own surrounding continuation. 2014-08-05T15:08:24Z vanila: we know it's an infinite loop 2014-08-05T15:08:33Z vanila: you only need to paste it into a repl to see that 2014-08-05T15:08:37Z ijp: vanila: it's not an infinite loop 2014-08-05T15:08:39Z pjdelport: It's not an infinite loop, necessarily. 2014-08-05T15:08:44Z pjdelport: > (define f (call/cc call/cc)) 2014-08-05T15:08:52Z Cheery: pjdelport: okay so if the callee does nothing at all, it will still return with the continuation 2014-08-05T15:09:12Z pjdelport: If you say that, f gets defined to the continuation (define f []) 2014-08-05T15:09:19Z Cheery: so.. 2014-08-05T15:09:22Z pjdelport: In other words, calling it will set itself. 2014-08-05T15:09:37Z pjdelport: > f 2014-08-05T15:09:37Z pjdelport: # 2014-08-05T15:09:37Z pjdelport: > (f 5) 2014-08-05T15:09:37Z pjdelport: > f 2014-08-05T15:09:37Z pjdelport: 5 2014-08-05T15:09:50Z vanila: ohh wow 2014-08-05T15:10:13Z Cheery: 8-| 2014-08-05T15:10:44Z Cheery: (call/cc call/cc) becomes.. (call/cc k (lambda (_ x) (k x))) 2014-08-05T15:11:10Z Cheery: or wait. it's in thet case 2014-08-05T15:11:15Z Cheery: (call/cc k call/cc) becomes.. (call/cc k (lambda (_ x) (k x))) 2014-08-05T15:12:20Z pjdelport: This works even with multiple values: 2014-08-05T15:12:21Z pjdelport: > (define g (list (call/cc call/cc) (call/cc call/cc))) 2014-08-05T15:12:21Z pjdelport: > g 2014-08-05T15:12:21Z pjdelport: (# #) 2014-08-05T15:12:30Z pjdelport: > ((car g) 2) 2014-08-05T15:12:30Z pjdelport: > g 2014-08-05T15:12:30Z pjdelport: (2 #) 2014-08-05T15:12:40Z pjdelport: > ((cadr g) 3) 2014-08-05T15:12:40Z pjdelport: > g 2014-08-05T15:12:40Z pjdelport: (2 3) 2014-08-05T15:12:59Z Cheery: and further. um wait. no. it's still wrong thatI wrote 2014-08-05T15:13:53Z Cheery: ned to start over. :) 2014-08-05T15:14:38Z vanila: I don't really understand why the CPS definition of cwcc is just (define (cwcc-> f-> k) (f-> k k))? (using -> to denote CPS'd versions of functions) 2014-08-05T15:15:04Z Riastradh: Not quite. 2014-08-05T15:15:37Z Riastradh: (define (cwcc-> f-> k) (f-> (lambda (v k*) (k v)) k)) 2014-08-05T15:18:15Z vanila: so if f was a function taking one function as its parameter, then f-> takes a CPS'd function 2014-08-05T15:18:28Z Cheery: ooh.. now it's getting clear 2014-08-05T15:18:43Z Cheery: call/cc call/cc becomes: (k (lambda (_ v) (k v))) 2014-08-05T15:19:18Z Riastradh: It may help to write down step-by-step transformations, reductions, and substitutions. 2014-08-05T15:19:23Z Cheery: so the continuation gets a function, which calls the continuation again if called. 2014-08-05T15:19:33Z vanila: but I still don't understand why we have (lambda (v k*) (k v))? 2014-08-05T15:20:03Z Riastradh: vanila, that is a procedure which returns its argument (v) not to the continuation it is given (k*) but to the continuation that CWCC saved for it (k). 2014-08-05T15:20:03Z Cheery: okay.. so now I try teh another. ((call/cc call/cc) (call/cc call/cc)) 2014-08-05T15:20:22Z ijp: vanila: otherwise you'd pass a value and a continuation to your continuation 2014-08-05T15:20:37Z Cheery: I need to rewrite that into cps, but I can substitute the statements with what I got. 2014-08-05T15:21:03Z ijp: so you need to explicitly drop one 2014-08-05T15:21:51Z vanila: oh, yeah I see1 2014-08-05T15:21:59Z Riastradh: It may help to eta-expand procedure arguments: instead of (cwcc f), write (cwcc (lambda (c) (f c)); instead of (f-> k k), write (f-> (lambda (...what arguments?...) (k ...)) k). 2014-08-05T15:22:37Z Riastradh: For example, expand (cwcc cwcc) into (cwcc (lambda (c) (cwcc c))) into (cwcc (lambda (c0) (cwcc (lambda (c1) (c0 c1)))); then CPS-transform, beta-reduce, &c. 2014-08-05T15:25:58Z Cheery: I try another notation 2014-08-05T15:26:34Z Cheery: The (call/cc (op n []) call/cc) becomes (op n (op n [])) 2014-08-05T15:26:50Z vanila: my CPS code infinite loops on (cwcc (lambda (c0) (cwcc (lambda (c1) (c0 c1)))) :( 2014-08-05T15:27:14Z Riastradh: vanila, it shouldn't. Go step by step, and justify each step individually. 2014-08-05T15:27:24Z vanila: oh no i forgot a close bracket 2014-08-05T15:27:37Z Riastradh: (cwcc cwcc) => (cwcc (lambda (c) (cwcc c))) [eta-expand cwcc] 2014-08-05T15:29:36Z Cheery: so (call/cc ([] n (call/cc call/cc)) call/cc) becomes (([] n (call/cc call/cc)) n (call/cc call/cc)) 2014-08-05T15:30:49Z Cheery: now I need to be careful about this.. the ([] ..) notation is a shorthand for lambda 2014-08-05T15:31:36Z Cheery: (call/cc (([] n (call/cc call/cc)) n []) call/cc) 2014-08-05T15:31:45Z vanila: Is this correctly CPS'd? http://lpaste.net/108840 I did it by hand to follow how it worked and I think everything is a tail call so it should be ok 2014-08-05T15:32:07Z Cheery: (([] n (call/cc call/cc)) n (([] n (call/cc call/cc)) n [])) 2014-08-05T15:33:03Z akp_ is now known as akp 2014-08-05T15:33:15Z Riastradh: vanila, looks reasonable to me. Now do some beta-reductions -- where you see ((lambda (v) (f k v)) (lambda ...)), write (f k (lambda ...)). That will make it easier to follow. 2014-08-05T15:33:32Z vanila: thanks, ill try it 2014-08-05T15:33:37Z Cheery: ((([] n (call/cc call/cc)) n []) n (call/cc call/cc)) 2014-08-05T15:34:31Z Cheery: (([] n (call/cc call/cc)) n (call/cc call/cc)) 2014-08-05T15:35:07Z Cheery: it doesn't return 2014-08-05T15:36:35Z Cheery: it's very confusing. but maybe I understand it now 2014-08-05T15:36:57Z Cheery: the (call/cc call/cc) returns the continuation instead of calling a function with it. 2014-08-05T15:37:47Z ijp: https://gist.github.com/e3b02a14cbd28c565107 is an attempt at showing (call/cc call/cc) = (call/cc id) without cps 2014-08-05T15:37:48Z Cheery: so when you call the continuation you got, you'll end up into state where the thing returned what you gave to it, paradoxically 2014-08-05T15:39:02Z ijp: but frankly, I think the method I outlined earlier is simplest 2014-08-05T15:39:05Z Cheery: if you first get a continuation that way, then get another continuation and call it with the prior continuation, you get an infinite loop 2014-08-05T15:39:40Z Cheery: because it ends up into "then get another continuation and call it with the prior continuation" 2014-08-05T15:40:28Z stepnem joined #scheme 2014-08-05T15:41:06Z Cheery: but hmm.. evaluation order is very important to here too right? 2014-08-05T15:41:10Z Cheery: I assume left to right evaluation order 2014-08-05T15:41:22Z Cheery: if it's right to left evaluation order. the meaning changes 2014-08-05T15:41:45Z ijp: when you convert to cps, you fix an evaluation order 2014-08-05T15:42:01Z Cheery: true! 2014-08-05T15:42:37Z vanila: I'm really stuck with the very first question still, at the end I get (exit a b) but exit only takes on argument http://lpaste.net/108841 2014-08-05T15:42:38Z Cheery: it becomes a delay line? 2014-08-05T15:43:34Z Cheery: hah. I need to implement call/cc in snakelisp, then implement a tracer that lets me understand it. ^^ 2014-08-05T15:44:26Z Riastradh: vanila, make sure you have your argument order correct. 2014-08-05T15:44:30Z ijp: vanila: I think you've been mixing up your arguments 2014-08-05T15:44:46Z sstrickl quit (Quit: sstrickl) 2014-08-05T15:45:08Z Riastradh: You need to decide whether the continuation comes first or last in a procedure call. 2014-08-05T15:45:24Z Cheery: ijp: thanks for helping :) 2014-08-05T15:46:48Z pjdelport: Cheery: This might also help: 2014-08-05T15:46:49Z pjdelport: > (define (cc) (call/cc call/cc)) 2014-08-05T15:47:11Z pjdelport: Then (define f (cc)) is the example we had before. 2014-08-05T15:47:30Z pjdelport: Now consider for example: ((cc) 5) 2014-08-05T15:47:33Z ijp: you need to be careful with it, because (let ((f (cc))) ...) f will only be a continuation the first time 2014-08-05T15:47:42Z ijp: not the best way to program 2014-08-05T15:48:12Z ijp: (not only the first time, the first time, and anytime that continuation is called with a continuation as an argument) 2014-08-05T15:48:16Z pjdelport: Calling (cc) like that effectively replaces the (cc) with whatever you call it, so ((cc) 5) just becomes: (5 5) 2014-08-05T15:48:21Z pjdelport: (which is an error) 2014-08-05T15:48:32Z Cheery: ijp: I understood it's a puzzle 2014-08-05T15:48:52Z pjdelport: Which means that in the same way, ((cc) (cc)) becomes... ((cc) (cc)) :) 2014-08-05T15:49:00Z pjdelport: ad infinitum 2014-08-05T15:49:12Z Cheery: I don't tend to make my programs out of puzzles :) 2014-08-05T15:49:25Z ijp: great job security 2014-08-05T15:51:18Z Cheery: job security indeed, figurative locks in your code. ^^ 2014-08-05T15:54:47Z ANGRYSTEVE joined #scheme 2014-08-05T15:54:59Z ANGRYSTEVE quit (Changing host) 2014-08-05T15:55:00Z ANGRYSTEVE joined #scheme 2014-08-05T15:55:14Z Nizumzen joined #scheme 2014-08-05T15:55:35Z vanila: i fixed the argument order but I just can't get this derivation to work 2014-08-05T15:55:52Z vanila: I keep calling exit with 2 args 2014-08-05T15:58:05Z cdan joined #scheme 2014-08-05T16:03:32Z vanila: oh i hadn't fully fxied it 2014-08-05T16:05:52Z vanila: so it reduces right down to (exit (lambda (k* v) (exit v))) 2014-08-05T16:06:11Z vanila: I don't think I can understand its behavior from that 2014-08-05T16:07:37Z jusss quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-08-05T16:10:07Z kongtomorrow joined #scheme 2014-08-05T16:11:00Z davexunit quit (Changing host) 2014-08-05T16:11:00Z davexunit joined #scheme 2014-08-05T16:11:24Z vanila: > (let ((x (call-with-current-continuation call-with-current-continuation))) (x)) 2014-08-05T16:11:38Z vanila: this gives me bad argument count 2014-08-05T16:12:50Z ijp: yes, it should 2014-08-05T16:13:39Z ijp: vanila: (let ((x )) (x)) => () => (let ((x (values))) (x)) 2014-08-05T16:14:59Z ijp: if you have a scheme were missing values were replaced with #f, you'd instead get an error saying "#f is not a procedure" 2014-08-05T16:16:03Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-08-05T16:20:59Z azynheira joined #scheme 2014-08-05T16:21:46Z vanila: http://lpaste.net/108844 2014-08-05T16:21:50Z vanila: shouldn't these both do the same thing then? 2014-08-05T16:21:59Z vanila: but it says Error: call of non-procedure: 5 2014-08-05T16:22:52Z ijp: rudybot: (let ((x (call/cc call/cc))) (x 5) x) 2014-08-05T16:22:52Z rudybot: ijp: your r5rs sandbox is ready 2014-08-05T16:22:53Z rudybot: ijp: error: call/cc: undefined; cannot reference an identifier before its definition in module: 'program 2014-08-05T16:23:04Z ijp: rudybot: (define call/cc call-with-current-continuation) 2014-08-05T16:23:05Z rudybot: ijp: Done. 2014-08-05T16:23:06Z ijp: rudybot: (let ((x (call/cc call/cc))) (x 5) x) 2014-08-05T16:23:06Z rudybot: ijp: error: application: not a procedure; expected a procedure that can be applied to arguments given: 5 arguments...: 5 2014-08-05T16:23:23Z ijp: vanila: exactly so, for the same reason 2014-08-05T16:23:39Z vanila: i don't think i've ever been this confused 2014-08-05T16:23:51Z ijp: vanila: did you sort out the problem in your other paste? 2014-08-05T16:24:24Z vanila: http://lpaste.net/108845 2014-08-05T16:24:38Z vanila: yeah here's my derivation which calculates that (f f) in CPS comes out as (exit (lambda (k* v) (exit v))) 2014-08-05T16:24:44Z ijp: (let ((x (call/cc call/cc))) (x 5) x) => (let ((x )) (x 5) x) => (begin ( (let ((x 5)) (x 5) x) => (begin (5 5) 5) => error 2014-08-05T16:25:34Z vanila: rudyboy: (begin (define f (call/cc call/cc)) (f 5) f) 2014-08-05T16:25:42Z vanila: this errors 2014-08-05T16:25:51Z vanila: but it's ok if you put (define f (call/cc call/cc)) on its own line 2014-08-05T16:27:12Z ijp: in most repls, that is true 2014-08-05T16:27:19Z ijp: not sure how compiled files handle it 2014-08-05T16:27:34Z vanila: so call/cc just does whatever 2014-08-05T16:27:40Z ijp: vanila: in a repl, you don't get access to the entire continuation 2014-08-05T16:27:49Z vanila: like, you can't make sense of that use it 2014-08-05T16:27:51Z vanila: programs* 2014-08-05T16:28:30Z ijp: in particular, they don't want you having access to the reply parts of the continuation 2014-08-05T16:28:47Z ijp: so there is a "prompt" that cuts it off at the top of the form 2014-08-05T16:28:51Z vanila: oh 2014-08-05T16:29:13Z ijp: I broke rudybot doing something similar with continuations once :) 2014-08-05T16:29:18Z vanila: haha 2014-08-05T16:29:22Z vanila: poor thing 2014-08-05T16:29:38Z ijp: rudybot: (define f (call/cc call/cc)) 2014-08-05T16:29:38Z rudybot: ijp: Done. 2014-08-05T16:29:42Z ijp: rudybot: (f 5) 2014-08-05T16:29:42Z rudybot: ijp: Done. 2014-08-05T16:29:44Z ijp: rudybot: f 2014-08-05T16:29:44Z rudybot: ijp: ; Value: 5 2014-08-05T16:30:36Z vanila: rudybot: shift 2014-08-05T16:30:36Z rudybot: vanila: windmove -- [0] a package that makes switching windows easy; just use shift and a direction key to switch to another window 2014-08-05T16:30:54Z ijp: vanila: *if* you had access to the full continuation, and suppose that you interactied with rudybot like so 2014-08-05T16:31:01Z ijp: rudybot: (define f (call/cc call/cc)) 2014-08-05T16:31:02Z rudybot: ijp: Done. 2014-08-05T16:31:03Z ijp: rudybot: quote 2014-08-05T16:31:04Z rudybot: ijp: Let's disobey the laws of thermodynamics. 2014-08-05T16:31:07Z ijp: rudybot: (f 5) 2014-08-05T16:31:08Z rudybot: ijp: Done. 2014-08-05T16:31:23Z ijp: then when you invoked continuation f, rudybot would have had to go back and give another quote 2014-08-05T16:31:28Z vanila: hahaha 2014-08-05T16:31:44Z ijp: (not quite, but it gives you an idea of why the prompt exists) 2014-08-05T16:33:03Z vanila: can I do this call/cc thing with shift/reset? 2014-08-05T16:33:24Z ijp: vanila: https://groups.google.com/forum/#!msg/perl.perl6.language/-KFNPaLL2yE/_RzO8Fenz7AJ 2014-08-05T16:33:32Z rudybot: http://tinyurl.com/l8ephvm 2014-08-05T16:34:09Z vanila: wow 2014-08-05T16:35:06Z ijp: everyone loves the continuation sandwich 2014-08-05T16:38:40Z ijp: vanila: you can, assuming you imagine that there is only one reset, and it's at the top of your program 2014-08-05T16:39:04Z vanila: http://lpaste.net/108846 ive got this 2014-08-05T16:39:09Z vanila: I think that it is equivalnet 2014-08-05T16:39:10Z ijp: it looks something like (define (call/cc f) (shift k (k (f (lambda (v) (shift j (k v))))))) [completely untested] 2014-08-05T16:40:22Z vanila: thanks so much for helping me understand all this crazy stuff, it's really difficult 2014-08-05T16:40:26Z vanila: and Riastradh and Cheery too 2014-08-05T16:40:33Z vanila: and pjdelport 2014-08-05T16:40:55Z vanila: i hope i didnt just annoyingly ping a bunch of people, I just didnt want to leave someone ou t 2014-08-05T16:45:25Z ijp: if your brain hurts, it just means you are learning 2014-08-05T16:46:03Z vanila: yeah :D 2014-08-05T16:46:05Z ijp: or possibly something more serious that requires urgent medical attention 2014-08-05T16:46:11Z vanila: lol 2014-08-05T16:54:16Z przl joined #scheme 2014-08-05T16:54:18Z Nizumzen quit (Quit: KVIrc 4.2.0 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/) 2014-08-05T17:00:58Z b4283 quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2014-08-05T17:04:41Z zacts_ quit (Quit: leaving) 2014-08-05T17:04:52Z zacts joined #scheme 2014-08-05T17:05:00Z zacts quit (Changing host) 2014-08-05T17:05:00Z zacts joined #scheme 2014-08-05T17:20:55Z pnkfelix quit (Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 24.3.92.1) 2014-08-05T17:21:48Z vanila: http://lpaste.net/108853 2014-08-05T17:22:02Z vanila: there's this paper on how to make monads in scheme 2014-08-05T17:22:11Z vanila: using shift/reset 2014-08-05T17:22:45Z cdan: I am just a beginner, if this is a stupid question then please just ignore it 2014-08-05T17:23:21Z vanila: I was wonering, if you had this reify/reflect stuff built in, then you could reimplement the continuation monad 2014-08-05T17:23:43Z pjdelport: cdan: No stupid questions. :) 2014-08-05T17:23:45Z vanila: would this be a good alternative to cwcc or shift/reset as a primitive? 2014-08-05T17:23:47Z ijp: cdan: no, yes, maybe, I don't know, it's deprecated, you shouldn't, only on saturdays 2014-08-05T17:23:54Z ijp: that should cover most of the answers 2014-08-05T17:23:58Z cdan: what are you developing in scheme besides academical research 2014-08-05T17:24:50Z ijp: vanila: you could, but I don't see that it is obviously better 2014-08-05T17:26:10Z cdan: I am reading SICP , I love it , I programmed in Java for 14 years (find it debilitating) and trying to build myself an image of the scheme ecosystem 2014-08-05T17:26:37Z ijp: cdan: there isn't one 2014-08-05T17:26:46Z ijp: there's a dozen 2014-08-05T17:27:00Z kuribas joined #scheme 2014-08-05T17:27:44Z sstrickl joined #scheme 2014-08-05T17:31:06Z ijp` joined #scheme 2014-08-05T17:32:42Z ijp quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-08-05T17:34:18Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2014-08-05T17:36:27Z cdan: I am using mit schem, what option are there for some kind of code modularization namespaces/import or something similar? 2014-08-05T17:38:02Z BossKonaSegwaY quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2014-08-05T17:38:11Z theseb quit (Quit: Leaving) 2014-08-05T17:38:15Z ijp` is now known as ijp 2014-08-05T17:39:38Z daviid joined #scheme 2014-08-05T17:48:29Z khisanth_ joined #scheme 2014-08-05T17:49:32Z kongtomorrow quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-08-05T17:50:09Z kongtomorrow joined #scheme 2014-08-05T17:50:59Z Khisanth quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-08-05T17:52:24Z BossKonaSegwaY joined #scheme 2014-08-05T18:04:16Z vanila quit (Quit: Leaving) 2014-08-05T18:06:46Z amgarchIn9 joined #scheme 2014-08-05T18:08:25Z azynheira left #scheme 2014-08-05T18:09:42Z InfusoElAmbulant joined #scheme 2014-08-05T18:11:16Z Nizumzen joined #scheme 2014-08-05T18:16:43Z Alestan: samth thanks, it doesn't seem to work with legacy macros 'though, which is what I'm trying to figure out. I found a tiny scheme interpreter written in python which does separate macro expansion, 2014-08-05T18:17:44Z samth: Alestan: it does work with defmacro 2014-08-05T18:17:49Z Gyps joined #scheme 2014-08-05T18:18:58Z Alestan: Hm, then I'm not understanding something... 2014-08-05T18:20:12Z effy quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-08-05T18:22:07Z Alestan: expand/step wants syntax as its first and only argument. 2014-08-05T18:23:01Z DrDuck: Hi guys. I'm looking for some help in understanding problem 3.10 of SICP: https://mitpress.mit.edu/sicp/full-text/book/book-Z-H-21.html#%_thm_3.10 I really just wanted to first take a look at the first expression to be modeled: (define W1 (make-withdraw 100)) 2014-08-05T18:23:34Z Alestan: When I pass it a macro, it complains that it is not syntax, when I call a macro as its argument, it evaluates the macro and then complains (as expected), if I pass it '(macroname args) it complains it is not syntax. 2014-08-05T18:23:45Z DrDuck: My interpretation is that it could be modeled in this way: https://www.refheap.com/88943 2014-08-05T18:24:16Z DrDuck: But that's wrong, and I'm not certain why. Here is an example of correct modeling http://wqzhang.wordpress.com/2009/07/13/sicp-exercise-3-10/ 2014-08-05T18:24:47Z DrDuck: In particular, I'm not sure why initial-amount gets its own frame. 2014-08-05T18:25:20Z hiroakip joined #scheme 2014-08-05T18:27:22Z Alestan: Okay, it's me, I can't get expand/step to work with define-syntax macros either, time to hit the docs again 2014-08-05T18:30:50Z ARM9 joined #scheme 2014-08-05T18:41:20Z samth: Alestan: you should use #' 2014-08-05T18:43:33Z careceri joined #scheme 2014-08-05T18:45:03Z careceri2 joined #scheme 2014-08-05T18:48:44Z careceri2 quit (Client Quit) 2014-08-05T18:49:31Z careceri2 joined #scheme 2014-08-05T19:02:34Z careceri2 quit (Quit: AtomicIRC: The nuclear option.) 2014-08-05T19:02:43Z careceri quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-08-05T19:03:28Z careceri joined #scheme 2014-08-05T19:03:44Z vanila joined #scheme 2014-08-05T19:03:55Z careceri quit (Client Quit) 2014-08-05T19:04:34Z careceri joined #scheme 2014-08-05T19:04:58Z careceri quit (Client Quit) 2014-08-05T19:05:27Z careceri joined #scheme 2014-08-05T19:05:51Z careceri quit (Client Quit) 2014-08-05T19:06:27Z careceri joined #scheme 2014-08-05T19:13:42Z Alestan: Okay, I've seen # a few times, but I can't find anywhere that explains it. Google and the like edit the # out of my searches, and I've never seen it discussed with other quotes. Since racket identifies things which begin with a #' as syntax, I assume that is its purpose 2014-08-05T19:15:01Z ijp: #'foo is reader syntax for (syntax foo), just like 'foo is reader syntax for (quote foo) 2014-08-05T19:15:33Z Alestan: Ah, that makes sense. 2014-08-05T19:40:18Z wingo quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2014-08-05T19:45:57Z evbogue joined #scheme 2014-08-05T19:46:59Z Gyps quit (Quit: Gyps) 2014-08-05T19:53:41Z Cromulent joined #scheme 2014-08-05T19:55:39Z Gyps joined #scheme 2014-08-05T19:56:16Z Nizumzen quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2014-08-05T20:06:19Z theseb joined #scheme 2014-08-05T20:08:34Z Cromulent quit (Quit: KVIrc 4.2.0 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/) 2014-08-05T20:08:40Z logand joined #scheme 2014-08-05T20:11:17Z bars0 joined #scheme 2014-08-05T20:12:02Z bjz quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2014-08-05T20:13:09Z kuribas quit (Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)) 2014-08-05T20:15:23Z hjolt joined #scheme 2014-08-05T20:20:25Z hjolt: I am working on SICP 1.22 and having some issues with the (runtime) primitive the text says I should be using, here is the relevant code for that section: http://pastebin.com/u9TPTRUf I was curious if anyone knows why (runtime) would be always returning the same value 2014-08-05T20:20:45Z bars0 quit (Quit: leaving) 2014-08-05T20:21:08Z hjolt: I am using mit-scheme (Release 9.2 || Microcode 15.3 || Runtime 15.7 || SF 4.41 || LIAR/x86-64 4.118 || Edwin 3.116) 2014-08-05T20:22:22Z Riastradh: Your CPU is too fast. Please use a slower CPU, or add more infinite loops to your code! 2014-08-05T20:23:58Z Riastradh: On a more serious note, you might try REAL-TIME-CLOCK instead. 2014-08-05T20:26:17Z hjolt: hmm , that is also returning 0 2014-08-05T20:26:21Z Riastradh: That, or (let ((p (cons 0 0))) ((make-primitive-procedure 'NANOTIME-SINCE-UTC-EPOCH 1) p) (let ((seconds (car p)) (nanoseconds (cdr p))) ...)). 2014-08-05T20:27:35Z theseb left #scheme 2014-08-05T20:27:48Z Riastradh: The trouble is that RUNTIME and REAL-TIME-CLOCK have only millisecond resolution. Which might have been helpful in 1984, but CPUs are much faster these days. 2014-08-05T20:28:11Z hjolt: Riastradh: That makes sense, but there is no nanosecond primitive built in ? 2014-08-05T20:28:23Z Riastradh: I added a nanosecond resolution clock, with the bonus of not misbehaving during a leap second like POSIX clocks do, but never finished integrating it into the system. 2014-08-05T20:29:36Z Riastradh: That's the NANOTIME-SINCE-UTC-EPOCH primitive. 2014-08-05T20:30:30Z vraid quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2014-08-05T20:35:51Z hjolt: Riastradh: I dont seem to see that in the documentation, that was why I was curious 2014-08-05T20:36:20Z Riastradh: Yes. I never finished integrating it into the system. 2014-08-05T20:38:07Z hjolt: Riastradh: Ah gotcha, thanks. I might just use another Lisp for this exercise. It seems like the next couple require modifications to the code from 1.22 so I can't just skip over it 2014-08-05T20:39:31Z Riastradh: Well, if you like, you could do this: 2014-08-05T20:40:28Z Riastradh: (define (runtime) (let ((p (cons 0 0))) ((make-primitive-procedure 'nanotime-since-utc-epoch 1) p) (* 1000 (+ (car p) (/ (cdr p) 1e9))))) 2014-08-05T20:40:59Z Riastradh: That will give you a floating-point number of milliseconds with nanosecond precision. 2014-08-05T20:41:33Z pnkfelix joined #scheme 2014-08-05T20:41:35Z hjolt: oh, yeah that could work really nicely 2014-08-05T20:41:36Z Riastradh: (or (+ (* (car p) 1e3) (/ (cdr p) 1e6))) 2014-08-05T20:41:46Z hjolt: thanks! 2014-08-05T20:58:48Z davexunit quit (Quit: Later) 2014-08-05T20:59:26Z davexunit joined #scheme 2014-08-05T20:59:57Z davexunit quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-08-05T21:00:16Z vraid joined #scheme 2014-08-05T21:02:54Z ARM9 quit (Quit: Leaving) 2014-08-05T21:08:07Z zarul joined #scheme 2014-08-05T21:08:08Z zarul quit (Changing host) 2014-08-05T21:08:08Z zarul joined #scheme 2014-08-05T21:09:49Z phipes joined #scheme 2014-08-05T21:14:25Z dan64 quit (Quit: ZNC - http://znc.in) 2014-08-05T21:15:10Z dan64 joined #scheme 2014-08-05T21:16:39Z przl joined #scheme 2014-08-05T21:16:47Z careceri quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-08-05T21:20:36Z Gyps quit (Quit: Gyps) 2014-08-05T21:21:29Z sstrickl quit (Quit: sstrickl) 2014-08-05T21:32:23Z bjz joined #scheme 2014-08-05T21:45:34Z InfusoElAmbulant quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-08-05T21:48:07Z amgarchIn9 quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2014-08-05T21:48:45Z amgarchIn9 joined #scheme 2014-08-05T21:53:35Z MichaelRaskin quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-08-05T21:54:35Z amgarchIn9 quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-08-05T21:59:14Z MichaelRaskin joined #scheme 2014-08-05T22:02:22Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-08-05T22:02:34Z sstrickl joined #scheme 2014-08-05T22:07:41Z nojb joined #scheme 2014-08-05T22:11:52Z rudybot quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-08-05T22:11:52Z Natch quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-08-05T22:12:36Z rudybot joined #scheme 2014-08-05T22:12:39Z Natch joined #scheme 2014-08-05T22:13:07Z cataska quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-08-05T22:13:57Z haroldwu quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-08-05T22:14:22Z acarrico quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-08-05T22:14:22Z sigjuice quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-08-05T22:14:50Z haroldwu joined #scheme 2014-08-05T22:15:14Z sigjuice joined #scheme 2014-08-05T22:15:27Z cataska joined #scheme 2014-08-05T22:16:37Z cdan quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2014-08-05T22:18:26Z zarchne quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-08-05T22:18:34Z zarchne joined #scheme 2014-08-05T22:19:44Z dmiles_afk quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-08-05T22:19:52Z dmiles_afk joined #scheme 2014-08-05T22:21:23Z acarrico joined #scheme 2014-08-05T22:31:21Z Sgeo joined #scheme 2014-08-05T22:36:24Z phipes quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. 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2014-08-06T00:29:51Z Alestan: If I do (somemacro '(1 2 3)) for example. 2014-08-06T00:29:57Z vanila: you can think of quote as a macro itself, I think 2014-08-06T00:30:12Z pjb: Then the macro gets passed the list (quote (1 2 3)). 2014-08-06T00:30:23Z Alestan: Okay, that's what I thought. 2014-08-06T00:30:59Z Alestan: The shorthand gets resolved into the explicit form and then passed. 2014-08-06T00:35:40Z daviid quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2014-08-06T00:47:44Z _will_ joined #scheme 2014-08-06T01:02:31Z kongtomorrow quit 2014-08-06T01:06:40Z ivan\ quit (Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)) 2014-08-06T01:07:13Z phax joined #scheme 2014-08-06T01:08:07Z DGASAU` joined #scheme 2014-08-06T01:08:58Z DGASAU quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2014-08-06T01:15:13Z _5kg joined #scheme 2014-08-06T01:19:13Z robot-beethoven joined #scheme 2014-08-06T01:19:40Z davexunit joined #scheme 2014-08-06T01:21:23Z Riastradh quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-08-06T01:25:08Z Riastradh joined #scheme 2014-08-06T01:34:30Z kongtomorrow joined #scheme 2014-08-06T01:38:30Z ivan\ joined #scheme 2014-08-06T01:48:37Z Rodya_ joined #scheme 2014-08-06T01:58:58Z _5kg quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2014-08-06T02:00:55Z _5kg joined #scheme 2014-08-06T02:02:15Z leo2007 quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2014-08-06T02:10:46Z kongtomorrow quit 2014-08-06T02:23:45Z vanila quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-08-06T02:31:49Z mn_ joined #scheme 2014-08-06T02:32:21Z ijp quit (Quit: This ijp has ended peacefully) 2014-08-06T02:38:31Z jaimef quit (Excess Flood) 2014-08-06T02:39:04Z jaimef joined #scheme 2014-08-06T02:44:01Z mn_ quit (Quit: leaving) 2014-08-06T02:46:21Z davexunit quit (Quit: Later) 2014-08-06T02:51:48Z Nizumzen quit (Quit: KVIrc 4.2.0 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/) 2014-08-06T02:56:15Z adu joined #scheme 2014-08-06T03:09:39Z phax quit (Quit: phax) 2014-08-06T03:19:20Z Alestan: So is there a set of tests to see how well r5rs is implemented? 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http://www.schemers.org/Documents/Standards/R5RS/HTML/r5rs-Z-H-8.html#%_idx_190 http://www.schemers.org/Documents/Standards/R5RS/HTML/r5rs-Z-H-7.html#%_idx_102 2014-08-06T10:53:12Z rudybot: http://tinyurl.com/cml55p 2014-08-06T10:53:13Z rudybot: http://tinyurl.com/apfdqp 2014-08-06T10:53:29Z vanila: and ok define can use the shorthand syntax for lambda, but is that it? 2014-08-06T10:54:51Z vanila: I guess the real difference is set! will error if the thing is not defined, but what's the point in having both then? 2014-08-06T10:56:27Z BossKonaSegwaY joined #scheme 2014-08-06T10:57:22Z vinleod joined #scheme 2014-08-06T10:58:01Z vinleod quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2014-08-06T11:00:48Z ARM9 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-08-06T11:01:36Z ARM9 joined #scheme 2014-08-06T11:02:33Z Riastradh: vanila, that DEFINE assigns variables is a hack to make incremental redefinition work at the REPL when you're developing something. 2014-08-06T11:02:34Z bit` joined #scheme 2014-08-06T11:02:39Z Riastradh: You're not supposed to use it in normal code. 2014-08-06T11:03:03Z vanila: oh 2014-08-06T11:04:27Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-08-06T11:08:07Z vanila: but what about having define inside procedures for subfunctions? 2014-08-06T11:08:14Z vanila: local helper functions 2014-08-06T11:11:10Z autochthon quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-08-06T11:17:10Z taylanub: vanila: that's syntactic sugar for using `letrec' or `letrec*' (newest standard, R7RS, prescribes the latter IIRC). 2014-08-06T11:18:08Z vanila: does R7RS define a new desugar stage separate from macroexpansion? 2014-08-06T11:18:13Z taylanub: (so in the end, *every* variable binding, except for top-level `define' usages, boil down to `lambda') 2014-08-06T11:18:41Z taylanub: vanila: no, it just says that using define like that is equivalent to the analogous letrec* usage, you can check the exact wording if you're curious 2014-08-06T11:19:42Z taylanub: vanila: R7RS-small is 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conditionals in my language, but no arithmetic or comparators.. I guess I need to do something for that tomorrow. :) 2014-08-06T20:21:13Z gnomon: Cheery, pfft - as long as you have lambdas your users can implement Church numerals if they _really_ need arithmetic. 2014-08-06T20:21:26Z gnomon: Cheery, not your problem if they do! 2014-08-06T20:21:48Z Cheery: too bad I'm my own user 2014-08-06T20:22:35Z Cheery: and I don't intend to bully myself. :) 2014-08-06T20:24:13Z pjb: If you have lambda, you have Church numerals, so you don't need anything else for arithmetic or comparators. 2014-08-06T20:24:21Z eeezkil quit (Read error: No route to host) 2014-08-06T20:24:22Z pjdelport: Obligatory http://www.madore.org/~david/programs/unlambda/ 2014-08-06T20:24:41Z pjdelport: (which has call/cc as its sole control flow construct) 2014-08-06T20:25:44Z theseb joined #scheme 2014-08-06T20:26:57Z Cheery: I kept wondering about the debugging while doing 2014-08-06T20:28:23Z Cheery: I thought I could do it by attaching a breakpoint handler into every lambda I have. 2014-08-06T20:28:58Z Cheery: along the gc hook 2014-08-06T20:29:21Z Cheery: has this been done already by someone? does it work? 2014-08-06T20:33:33Z zematis joined #scheme 2014-08-06T20:34:44Z Gyps quit (Quit: Gyps) 2014-08-06T20:36:19Z Cheery: I'm also considering something akin to restarts. 2014-08-06T20:47:15Z dzhus joined #scheme 2014-08-06T20:58:37Z davexunit quit (Quit: Later) 2014-08-06T21:15:24Z Nizumzen joined #scheme 2014-08-06T21:20:14Z ARM9 quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2014-08-06T21:26:35Z theseb left #scheme 2014-08-06T21:30:42Z zematis quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-08-06T21:31:34Z sstrickl quit (Quit: sstrickl) 2014-08-06T21:46:31Z oldskirt_ joined #scheme 2014-08-06T21:49:28Z oldskirt quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2014-08-06T21:51:14Z jcowan joined #scheme 2014-08-06T21:53:22Z Riastradh joined #scheme 2014-08-06T21:54:53Z jcowan: Question: Inside a for-each or analogous iteration, I wish to break out of the iteration when I know I have no more to do. Is there anything less heavyweight than call/cc which will achieve this? 2014-08-06T21:55:49Z jcowan: (for-each is a bad example, because it can be expanded into a "let loop"; consider hash-walk instead.) 2014-08-06T21:56:02Z oldskirt joined #scheme 2014-08-06T21:57:11Z Vutral joined #scheme 2014-08-06T21:58:51Z oldskirt_ quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2014-08-06T21:59:36Z cky: jcowan: I don't have answer for that, but I do have an R7RS question for you. :-) (Not sure if you've seen my previous attempts to ask this before.) You know how procedures have location tags, right, so eq? can do something sensible for them? So, then, do continuations have location tags? If so, is it just a new location tag per call/cc invocation? That would seem to be common sense but it doesn't seem to be 2014-08-06T21:59:38Z cky: specified anywhere. 2014-08-06T22:00:12Z jcowan: If by continuations you mean escape procedures, then yes. 2014-08-06T22:00:29Z jcowan: (that is, the k in (call/cc (lambda (k) ...)) 2014-08-06T22:00:41Z cky: Right. 2014-08-06T22:01:02Z Vutral quit (Excess Flood) 2014-08-06T22:02:15Z Nizumzen quit (Quit: KVIrc 4.2.0 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/) 2014-08-06T22:04:37Z kongtomorrow joined #scheme 2014-08-06T22:04:39Z dzhus quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-08-06T22:04:46Z jcowan: In R7RS we have relaxed the criteria slightly: eq? may or may not discriminate between procedures; eqv? must. 2014-08-06T22:12:42Z cky: Interesting. I wonder what implementation approaches this relaxation will benefit. 2014-08-06T22:18:35Z davexunit joined #scheme 2014-08-06T22:19:03Z dmiles_afk quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-08-06T22:19:48Z dmiles_afk joined #scheme 2014-08-06T22:20:13Z Riastradh: Doesn't that mean EQ? may be coarser than EQV? ? 2014-08-06T22:23:58Z oldskirt_ joined #scheme 2014-08-06T22:26:55Z oldskirt quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2014-08-06T22:28:57Z jcowan: cky: See http://lists.scheme-reports.org/pipermail/scheme-reports/2013-June/003606.html for Will's argument 2014-08-06T22:28:58Z rudybot: http://tinyurl.com/m6g3akj 2014-08-06T22:36:47Z mrowe_away is now known as mrowe 2014-08-06T22:37:03Z sstrickl joined #scheme 2014-08-06T22:40:08Z jcowan quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2014-08-06T22:47:58Z pjb quit (Read error: No route to host) 2014-08-06T22:56:16Z kongtomo_ joined #scheme 2014-08-06T22:56:30Z pjb joined #scheme 2014-08-06T22:56:54Z pjb is now known as Guest11236 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Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)) 2014-08-07T09:04:38Z taylanub: we need a "later tell" service here ... 2014-08-07T09:09:35Z taylanub: I think jcowan confused the result of the whole procedure equivalence discussion; the result is that R7RS says that every procedure resulting from the evaluation of a `lambda' expression has a location tag, and eq?'s definition says it must return #true for procedures with the same location tag. so eq? is still guaranteed to work on procedures. it has merely been decoupled from eqv? (unlike 2014-08-07T09:09:35Z taylanub: records, vectors, etc. where eq? defers to eqv?) because eqv? should be allowed to be *smarter* than eq? and detect that two procedures are equivalent despite not being the result of the same `lambda' expression evaluation 2014-08-07T09:11:27Z taylanub: on retrospect it was a mistake (most notoriously of mine) to do this for procedures but not other data types, because other data types can be immutable too and thus operationally equivalent despite coming from different evaluations. notably records 2014-08-07T09:12:12Z pnkfelix joined #scheme 2014-08-07T09:13:09Z taylanub: on the other hand, the whole thing is *practically* mostly pointless because eqv? is desired to be constant-time instead of walking immutable data structures, meaning that, if it finds two objects to be equivalent, that will be because they have been optimized to be the same object in memory (despite coming from different evaluations), and not because eqv? walks through them 2014-08-07T09:14:46Z taylanub: cky: (TL;DR: R7RS eq? works fine on procedures, in the "object identity" sense) 2014-08-07T09:17:30Z taylanub: cky: oh and very interesting question; I *think* it's just an oversight in the spec though that it says that results of lambda evaluations have location tags and not all procedures, including ones coming from call/cc usage or whatever 2014-08-07T09:20:12Z taylanub: I think in R8RS we should go for a wholesale clarification of the whole equivalence stuff. In my opinion, operational equivalence like in R3RS and R6RS is actually the right way to define eqv?, although in addition we should add complexity guarantees to it. an additional procedure, like egal?, might be specified to walk immutable structures to reveal more operationally equivalent objects than 2014-08-07T09:20:12Z taylanub: eqv? can 2014-08-07T09:21:01Z bjz joined #scheme 2014-08-07T09:29:03Z Tiristor quit (Quit: Miranda IM! 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2014-08-07T17:36:59Z Cheery: how should these functions work? particularly how the types should interact. 2014-08-07T17:38:50Z FareWell joined #scheme 2014-08-07T17:39:29Z Cheery: also same goes on arithmetic on dynamic typing. 2014-08-07T17:39:35Z Gyps joined #scheme 2014-08-07T17:39:48Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2014-08-07T17:44:08Z daviid joined #scheme 2014-08-07T17:46:43Z ARM9 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-08-07T17:50:16Z Nizumzen joined #scheme 2014-08-07T17:57:41Z Nizumzen quit (Quit: KVIrc 4.2.0 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/) 2014-08-07T17:58:35Z pnkfelix quit (Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 24.3.92.1) 2014-08-07T17:59:19Z taylanub: offby1: :) 2014-08-07T18:02:32Z nowhereman_ joined #scheme 2014-08-07T18:02:47Z davexunit quit (Read error: No route to host) 2014-08-07T18:03:27Z davexunit joined #scheme 2014-08-07T18:03:32Z nowhere_man_ quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-08-07T18:04:39Z skeuomorf left #scheme 2014-08-07T18:06:33Z amgarchIn9 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-08-07T18:08:22Z ARM9 joined #scheme 2014-08-07T18:08:55Z davexunit quit (Read error: No route to host) 2014-08-07T18:09:03Z jlongster joined #scheme 2014-08-07T18:10:00Z eeezkil joined #scheme 2014-08-07T18:10:05Z davexunit joined #scheme 2014-08-07T18:10:35Z bzf joined #scheme 2014-08-07T18:12:39Z amgarchIn9 joined #scheme 2014-08-07T18:13:56Z FareWell quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-08-07T18:17:31Z theseb quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-08-07T18:19:25Z przl joined #scheme 2014-08-07T18:24:36Z theseb joined #scheme 2014-08-07T18:25:23Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2014-08-07T18:36:50Z przl joined #scheme 2014-08-07T18:38:42Z hiroakip joined #scheme 2014-08-07T18:39:18Z Alestan joined #scheme 2014-08-07T18:41:40Z amgarchIn9 quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2014-08-07T18:42:56Z Guest94683 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-08-07T18:44:07Z Guest26041 joined #scheme 2014-08-07T18:50:34Z ARM9 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-08-07T18:51:39Z ARM9 joined #scheme 2014-08-07T18:54:36Z przl quit (Quit: leaving) 2014-08-07T19:06:57Z wingo quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-08-07T19:09:58Z Guest26041 quit (Quit: Yaaic - Yet another Android IRC client - http://www.yaaic.org) 2014-08-07T19:13:03Z Gyps quit (Quit: Gyps) 2014-08-07T19:14:31Z Guest12944 joined #scheme 2014-08-07T19:14:36Z turbofail2 joined #scheme 2014-08-07T19:16:33Z amgarchIn9 joined #scheme 2014-08-07T19:16:43Z Nizumzen joined #scheme 2014-08-07T19:18:12Z offby1 whistles innocently 2014-08-07T19:19:00Z Gyps joined #scheme 2014-08-07T19:35:52Z Fare joined #scheme 2014-08-07T19:43:47Z theseb quit (Quit: Leaving) 2014-08-07T19:52:46Z zematis joined #scheme 2014-08-07T19:57:04Z Riastradh joined #scheme 2014-08-07T19:59:43Z ARM9 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-08-07T20:05:40Z rtra joined #scheme 2014-08-07T20:07:43Z Nizumzen quit (Quit: KVIrc 4.2.0 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/) 2014-08-07T20:10:44Z zematis quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-08-07T20:16:40Z Riastradh quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2014-08-07T20:19:38Z Riastradh joined #scheme 2014-08-07T20:26:03Z Riastradh quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-08-07T20:51:42Z pera quit (Quit: leaving) 2014-08-07T20:59:47Z pnkfelix joined #scheme 2014-08-07T21:09:11Z davexunit quit (Quit: Later) 2014-08-07T21:16:01Z developernotes joined #scheme 2014-08-07T21:17:00Z mrowe_away is now known as mrowe 2014-08-07T21:18:17Z kongtomorrow quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2014-08-07T21:18:58Z kongtomorrow joined #scheme 2014-08-07T21:22:12Z pnkfelix quit (Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 24.3.91.1) 2014-08-07T21:25:24Z oldskirt_ is now known as oldskirt 2014-08-07T21:26:00Z Fare quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2014-08-07T21:26:00Z Guest12944 quit (Quit: Yaaic - Yet another Android IRC client - http://www.yaaic.org) 2014-08-07T21:37:32Z mrowe is now known as mrowe_away 2014-08-07T21:38:28Z Gyps quit (Quit: Gyps) 2014-08-07T21:39:41Z developernotes quit (Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com) 2014-08-07T21:45:13Z Alestan: So I found some information on how recursive tail calls are detected, but little information on how non-recursive tail calls work internally. 2014-08-07T21:45:58Z oldskirt quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2014-08-07T21:47:05Z Cheery: hi Alestan 2014-08-07T21:47:08Z Alestan: I know that if the value being calculated by the call is just going to be immediately returned, then there is no reason to keep the stack frame around, 2014-08-07T21:47:42Z Cheery: that's right. 2014-08-07T21:47:45Z Alestan: Hi, you're the one working on a tiny scheme implementation in c, right? 2014-08-07T21:48:18Z Cheery: it's snakelisp. not exactly scheme. 2014-08-07T21:48:35Z Alestan: What I don't know is how you detect if the value is going to just be returned, 2014-08-07T21:49:10Z Alestan: if it is the last call in something like a (begin), it will be, but do tail call optimisations apply to the #t part of an if? 2014-08-07T21:49:32Z vraid quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-08-07T21:49:49Z Alestan: I would think so, since if the if, is in the tail position, it would itself be a tail call... 2014-08-07T21:49:52Z Cheery: I convert the source listing into continuation passing style. 2014-08-07T21:50:33Z Alestan: Yeah, I recall seeing that in the readme. 2014-08-07T21:51:17Z Cheery: it produces some continuations like this: (.\ (x) (k x)) 2014-08-07T21:51:21Z Cheery: this can be replaced by k 2014-08-07T21:51:39Z Cheery: the coalescing step does this kind of exercise. 2014-08-07T21:52:13Z Alestan: That makes sense. 2014-08-07T21:52:15Z oldskirt joined #scheme 2014-08-07T21:52:28Z Cheery: there's no actual stack frame. more like just values that are passed along into new continuation or closure 2014-08-07T21:53:05Z Alestan: Right, which eliminates the issues with stack growth. 2014-08-07T21:53:18Z turbofail2: http://people.csail.mit.edu/jaffer/r5rs_5.html#SEC23 2014-08-07T21:53:40Z turbofail2: there's a simple set of recursive rules in there for determining if something is in tail position or not 2014-08-07T21:54:25Z Cheery: Alestan: the non-recursive and recursive tail calls. by optimization they have not much difference. 2014-08-07T21:54:41Z sstrickl quit (Quit: sstrickl) 2014-08-07T21:54:45Z Cheery: Alestan: consider the code in continuations. the continuation represents what happens after a call is done. 2014-08-07T21:55:26Z Cheery: in the tail calls, there's nothing. because they're exactly like their name says, the last in the function body. 2014-08-07T21:55:40Z rtra quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2014-08-07T21:56:02Z Cheery: if there's nothing to do, you can as well pass the continuation the function got, into the tail call. 2014-08-07T21:57:12Z Cheery: note that things such as keeping exception frame might require keeping the continuation. 2014-08-07T21:57:35Z Cheery: if your language has exceptions. Mine doesn't have yet. 2014-08-07T21:57:48Z Cheery: I don't know if I give it exceptions. nobody knows. 2014-08-07T22:00:54Z rtra joined #scheme 2014-08-07T22:02:37Z Alestan: https://github.com/perkinslr/schemepy/tree/master/scheme 2014-08-07T22:03:23Z Alestan: I do have plans to support exceptions, I do have call/cc, which will mostly be used. 2014-08-07T22:03:44Z Alestan: The exception handling support will be mostly to catch exceptions raised by primitive procedures. 2014-08-07T22:04:16Z Alestan: I'm using a stack instead of cps, 2014-08-07T22:04:59Z Riastradh joined #scheme 2014-08-07T22:05:55Z Cheery: ok 2014-08-07T22:07:46Z Cheery: what are you usin zope for? 2014-08-07T22:10:22Z kongtomo_ joined #scheme 2014-08-07T22:10:24Z Alestan: the zope interfaces. 2014-08-07T22:10:50Z kongtomorrow quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2014-08-07T22:11:02Z Alestan: To specify if something is a procedure or a macro 2014-08-07T22:11:54Z Alestan: I considered simply requiring macros to subclass Macro, but this allows slightly more flexibility 2014-08-07T22:15:03Z Alestan: I will probably eventually write a tiny library that handles implements without needing all the rest which I never use, but since zope is pretty much always installed, it isn't a particularly high priority 2014-08-07T22:17:51Z sstrickl joined #scheme 2014-08-07T22:19:02Z dmiles_afk quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-08-07T22:19:47Z dmiles_afk joined #scheme 2014-08-07T22:22:21Z zematis joined #scheme 2014-08-07T22:23:21Z jrhorn424 is now known as zz_jrhorn424 2014-08-07T22:35:11Z Sgeo joined #scheme 2014-08-07T22:59:46Z phax quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2014-08-07T23:05:05Z kongtomo_ quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2014-08-07T23:05:53Z pobody joined #scheme 2014-08-07T23:07:24Z racycle quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2014-08-07T23:08:33Z racycle joined #scheme 2014-08-07T23:11:25Z logand``` joined #scheme 2014-08-07T23:14:45Z logand`` quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2014-08-07T23:18:43Z 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takes "rest arguments" 2014-08-08T00:07:04Z Pie_Mage: hmm 2014-08-08T00:07:15Z turbofail2: for example ((lambda foo foo) 1 2 3) would return the list '(1 2 3) 2014-08-08T00:07:52Z turbofail2: because it's mashing all the arguments given into a list 2014-08-08T00:08:06Z turbofail2: whereas ((lambda (foo) foo) 1) would just give you 1 2014-08-08T00:08:22Z turbofail2: and ((lambda (foo) foo) 1 2 3) would be an error 2014-08-08T00:08:50Z zematis joined #scheme 2014-08-08T00:08:54Z kongtomorrow quit 2014-08-08T00:08:56Z Pie_Mage: because it's expecting one argument and got 3 2014-08-08T00:08:59Z Pie_Mage: right? 2014-08-08T00:09:02Z turbofail2: yeah 2014-08-08T00:09:22Z dmiles_afk joined #scheme 2014-08-08T00:09:43Z Pie_Mage: so I have a function passing it's one argument to another function, and inside the other function it's becoming a single-element list 2014-08-08T00:10:21Z turbofail2: use a paste site to put your code up somewhere and then give us a link 2014-08-08T00:10:26Z Pie_Mage: rgr 2014-08-08T00:11:20Z Pie_Mage: http://pastebin.com/VSP8TzAe 2014-08-08T00:11:33Z Pie_Mage: ignore any wrongness in the branches of the if statement 2014-08-08T00:11:51Z Pie_Mage: i'm not quite there yet :/ 2014-08-08T00:12:19Z turbofail2: well it looks like all your functions are defined as taking rest arguments 2014-08-08T00:12:28Z Pie_Mage: haha 2014-08-08T00:12:38Z Pie_Mage: that would explain it then :P 2014-08-08T00:13:00Z turbofail2: if you don't want it to pack the arguments into a list you should use (lambda (foo) ...) 2014-08-08T00:13:12Z daviid quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-08-08T00:13:37Z turbofail2: you can also do mixed unpacked and packed args by doing (lambda (x y . other-args) ...) 2014-08-08T00:14:43Z Pie_Mage: interesting 2014-08-08T00:14:46Z turbofail2: but it doesn't look like anything you're doing here should be using packed args 2014-08-08T00:15:08Z Pie_Mage: it's more likely a misunderstanding on my part 2014-08-08T00:15:46Z Pie_Mage: think you've given me enough info to head in the right direction 2014-08-08T00:15:59Z Pie_Mage: ty 2014-08-08T00:16:23Z turbofail2: np 2014-08-08T00:34:15Z kongtomorrow joined #scheme 2014-08-08T00:39:30Z kongtomorrow quit 2014-08-08T00:40:28Z kongtomorrow joined #scheme 2014-08-08T00:42:16Z hiroakip quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2014-08-08T00:42:42Z Nizumzen joined #scheme 2014-08-08T00:50:01Z racycle quit (Quit: ZZZzzz…) 2014-08-08T00:56:39Z stepnem quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2014-08-08T00:59:50Z kongtomorrow quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2014-08-08T01:02:19Z plastic-houses quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-08-08T01:12:22Z zematis quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2014-08-08T01:19:38Z Fare quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-08-08T01:27:00Z zematis joined #scheme 2014-08-08T01:35:18Z ANGRYSTEVE quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-08-08T01:40:16Z davexunit joined #scheme 2014-08-08T01:45:13Z b4283 joined #scheme 2014-08-08T01:54:36Z mrowe is now known as mrowe_away 2014-08-08T01:56:53Z evbogue quit (Quit: Lost terminal) 2014-08-08T02:15:52Z vanila joined #scheme 2014-08-08T02:15:53Z vanila: hi 2014-08-08T02:16:38Z vanila: is this ok style? 2014-08-08T02:16:41Z vanila: (define (function ...) 2014-08-08T02:16:47Z vanila: (define (sub-function ...) 2014-08-08T02:16:54Z vanila: (stuff (sub-function stuff..))) 2014-08-08T02:17:06Z vanila: i got the indentation wrong but basically using inner define like that, is it ok? 2014-08-08T02:18:14Z nisstyre: vanila: yes 2014-08-08T02:18:40Z nisstyre: assuming sub-function requires a variable bound in the scope of function 2014-08-08T02:18:48Z nisstyre: otherwise it should be a top level procedure 2014-08-08T02:18:54Z zematis quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2014-08-08T02:19:26Z vanila: ok thank you 2014-08-08T02:19:49Z vanila: and I was wondering if i could see the output of macro expansions, I defined a macro by syntax-rules 2014-08-08T02:20:04Z nisstyre: if you use Racket you can use the macro stepper in DrRacket 2014-08-08T02:20:49Z nisstyre: I don't know if Guile has anything like that, probably does but I don't know about it offhand 2014-08-08T02:21:26Z vanila: ill get that then, thanks 2014-08-08T02:21:40Z nisstyre: cool 2014-08-08T02:21:45Z BossKonaSegwaY quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2014-08-08T02:26:36Z davexunit quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2014-08-08T02:32:03Z ijp quit (Quit: This ijp has ended peacefully) 2014-08-08T02:36:14Z BossKonaSegwaY joined #scheme 2014-08-08T02:40:30Z vanila quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-08-08T02:51:57Z eeezkil quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-08-08T02:53:31Z robot-beethoven joined #scheme 2014-08-08T02:56:08Z _will_ quit (Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.) 2014-08-08T02:56:26Z _will_ joined #scheme 2014-08-08T03:10:20Z govg_ quit (Quit: leaving) 2014-08-08T03:14:18Z kongtomorrow joined #scheme 2014-08-08T03:19:53Z kongtomorrow quit 2014-08-08T03:28:57Z racycle joined #scheme 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equivalents in code too of course but I tend to forget them) 2014-08-08T07:31:10Z taylanub: nisstyre: BTW I disagree that a procedure shouldn't be defined locally just because it doesn't use any variables of the enclosing scope 2014-08-08T07:33:14Z taylanub: reasons to do so are 1) not littering the outer scope, 2) depending on your implementation, uses of a local procedure could get much better optimized; for instance in Guile all user-defined top-levels are always mutable from anywhere (even other modules, using the module API), so no optims are done "across the boundaries of top-levels" 2014-08-08T07:35:18Z wingo joined #scheme 2014-08-08T07:35:39Z stepnem joined #scheme 2014-08-08T07:43:35Z mrowe_away is now known as mrowe 2014-08-08T07:48:10Z pnkfelix joined #scheme 2014-08-08T07:48:11Z Alestan: racket's macro stepper is really nice, since it lets you go forward and backward on the expansion as well as showing recursive expansions step-by-step. 2014-08-08T07:51:46Z boycottg00gle 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Geiser (Emacs extension) 2014-08-08T14:00:13Z boycottg00gle: gauche is nice, too 2014-08-08T14:00:15Z ARM9: hjolt I'm a vimmer 2014-08-08T14:00:31Z ARM9: but I suppose there's ought to be some decent slime for vim by now 2014-08-08T14:01:38Z hjolt: boycottg00gle: What is gauche? 2014-08-08T14:01:49Z boycottg00gle: scheme 2014-08-08T14:02:20Z hjolt: ARM9: Well you can always run mit-scheme as a standalone process, but it really is a lot easier in Emacs. There may be a VIM plugin, but I am not familiar with it 2014-08-08T14:02:31Z hjolt: boycottg00gle: Like an implementation of Scheme ? 2014-08-08T14:02:40Z boycottg00gle: hjolt: yes, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gauche_%28Scheme_implementation%29 2014-08-08T14:02:59Z ARM9: slimv looks to be pretty much vims answer to slime 2014-08-08T14:03:07Z ARM9: I'll see how it works 2014-08-08T14:07:27Z MouldyOldBones quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-08-08T14:25:56Z frkout joined #scheme 2014-08-08T14:28:34Z zz_jrhorn424 is now known as jrhorn424 2014-08-08T14:31:09Z frkout quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2014-08-08T14:32:25Z theseb joined #scheme 2014-08-08T14:32:33Z gravicappa quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-08-08T14:36:12Z taylanub quit (Disconnected by services) 2014-08-08T14:36:41Z taylanub joined #scheme 2014-08-08T14:56:10Z Tiristor joined #scheme 2014-08-08T14:57:16Z duggiefresh joined #scheme 2014-08-08T15:03:38Z zarul quit (Quit: Leaving) 2014-08-08T15:05:14Z amgarchIn9 joined #scheme 2014-08-08T15:09:43Z stamourv` is now known as stamourv 2014-08-08T15:13:38Z Riastradh quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-08-08T15:18:48Z Riastradh joined #scheme 2014-08-08T15:19:27Z sad0ur_ is now known as sad0ur 2014-08-08T15:23:18Z zlrth joined #scheme 2014-08-08T15:35:11Z developernotes joined #scheme 2014-08-08T15:35:50Z ventonegro quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-08-08T15:36:40Z haroldwu quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-08-08T15:36:58Z haroldwu joined #scheme 2014-08-08T15:37:34Z hiroakip joined #scheme 2014-08-08T15:37:54Z haroldwu quit (Changing host) 2014-08-08T15:37:54Z haroldwu joined #scheme 2014-08-08T15:38:28Z alexs` joined #scheme 2014-08-08T15:38:48Z alexs` is now known as ventonegro 2014-08-08T15:39:00Z w0rm joined #scheme 2014-08-08T15:52:38Z vraid quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2014-08-08T15:52:46Z vanila: What kind of programming uses reset and shift continuations? 2014-08-08T15:53:52Z przl joined #scheme 2014-08-08T15:53:53Z boycottg00gle quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-08-08T15:57:01Z nisstyre: vanila: good question, ask Oleg Kiselyov 2014-08-08T15:57:50Z nisstyre: but seriously, http://community.schemewiki.org/?composable-continuations-tutorial 2014-08-08T16:00:40Z racycle joined #scheme 2014-08-08T16:03:45Z vanila: thanks 2014-08-08T16:06:40Z jlongster joined #scheme 2014-08-08T16:09:22Z hiroakip quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-08-08T16:10:49Z davexunit: reset and shift, those are delimited continuations, right? 2014-08-08T16:13:09Z Cheery: they are 2014-08-08T16:14:56Z zlrth quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-08-08T16:16:33Z vanila: I've seen that you can implement monads with them 2014-08-08T16:16:53Z vanila: and that covers a lot of things like nondeterminism, errors/exception throwing, .. 2014-08-08T16:16:57Z davexunit: cool, I've used delimited continuations in guile, but I must admit that I haven't learned the concepts super well. 2014-08-08T16:17:08Z davexunit: I learned enough to write coroutines. 2014-08-08T16:17:46Z karswell joined #scheme 2014-08-08T16:20:48Z Cheery: davexunit: continuation isn't complex concept. 2014-08-08T16:21:03Z Cheery: or well. what results out of it is complex 2014-08-08T16:23:10Z Cheery: instead of thinking of a call stack. think about future evaluations from the point of the continuation. 2014-08-08T16:23:32Z davexunit: Cheery: yeah, that helps. 2014-08-08T16:24:08Z davexunit: I understand at a basic level, but when I'm writing code I can get somewhat confused for a short time. 2014-08-08T16:24:16Z Cheery: when call/cc happens, it gives you a function which jumps into that evaluation whenever you want. 2014-08-08T16:24:40Z Cheery: though it stays as the 'future' of the function that gets it. 2014-08-08T16:25:04Z Cheery: that's true it's easy to get confused 2014-08-08T16:25:14Z Cheery: the (call/cc call/cc) -riddle was fun. :) 2014-08-08T16:27:26Z vanila: it was really interesting 2014-08-08T16:27:41Z vanila: the actual truth about it was kind of horrible though 2014-08-08T16:37:23Z pnkfelix quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2014-08-08T16:38:43Z vraid joined #scheme 2014-08-08T16:41:05Z ventonegro quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-08-08T16:54:46Z kongtomorrow joined #scheme 2014-08-08T16:58:02Z oldskirt_ joined #scheme 2014-08-08T16:58:20Z theseb quit (Quit: Leaving) 2014-08-08T16:58:46Z developernotes quit (Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. 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2014-08-09T01:23:02Z pjb: I never heard of "closure conversion". 2014-08-09T01:23:18Z nisstyre: vanila: you find the free variables of a function and convert them to something like (get env v) 2014-08-09T01:23:22Z nisstyre: then pass env as a parameter 2014-08-09T01:23:27Z nisstyre: pjb: it's a compiler term 2014-08-09T01:23:50Z pjb: Well, if it's creating the closre as you describe, then yes. 2014-08-09T01:23:57Z nisstyre: http://matt.might.net/articles/closure-conversion/ 2014-08-09T01:24:21Z nisstyre: also you package that up with the env and procedure/function pointer of course 2014-08-09T01:24:55Z vanila: Do I have to do closure convertion for every function? 2014-08-09T01:25:01Z pjb: I've read LiSP (and CwC a long time ago), and don't remember this expression. :-/ 2014-08-09T01:25:21Z nisstyre: it's all in there 2014-08-09T01:25:24Z pjb: vanila: only those with free variables. 2014-08-09T01:25:26Z nisstyre: I have both books and it talks about it 2014-08-09T01:25:37Z pjb: But then in scheme, almost all functions have free variables, since it's a lisp-1. 2014-08-09T01:25:39Z nisstyre: also yeah a function with no free variables is not a closure :p 2014-08-09T01:25:54Z nisstyre: pjb: top-level bindings don't count I think 2014-08-09T01:25:54Z vanila: it's so confusing 2014-08-09T01:26:03Z nisstyre: but yeah free variables are used a lot 2014-08-09T01:26:03Z pjb: (lambda (x) (x x)) would have an empty closure environment, so it could be a pure function. 2014-08-09T01:26:32Z vanila: so 2014-08-09T01:26:32Z nisstyre: yeah, you could optimize (invoke f env) to just (f) 2014-08-09T01:26:35Z vanila: (define f (let ((x 1)) (lambda (y) (+ x y))) 2014-08-09T01:26:42Z vanila: (define g (lambda (y) (+ 3 y)) 2014-08-09T01:26:45Z vanila: for example 2014-08-09T01:26:59Z vanila: i should closure convert the lambda in f, but not g 2014-08-09T01:27:06Z nisstyre: the first one becomes roughly (lambda (y env) (+ (env-ref env 'x) y)) 2014-08-09T01:27:17Z nisstyre: right 2014-08-09T01:27:19Z pjb: nisstyre: some scheme allow you to change the toplevel bindings, (define f (lambda (x y) x)) (define c (lambda (x y) (f x y))) (set! f (lambda (x y) y)) (c 1 2) should return 1 IMO. 2014-08-09T01:27:43Z vanila: and this means code like this: (begin (f 2) (g 3)) would become (begin (f f-env 2) (g 3)) 2014-08-09T01:27:55Z pjb: vanila: + is a free variable. 2014-08-09T01:27:57Z nisstyre: pjb: that is a good point 2014-08-09T01:28:03Z vanila: but what if someone comes along and does (set! g f) 2014-08-09T01:28:52Z pjb: vanila: and in the case of your function f above, since x is not modified, the let could be elimiated, compiling (lambda (y) (+ 1 y)). 2014-08-09T01:29:14Z vanila: good point 2014-08-09T01:29:15Z vanila: let's use (define f (let ((x 1)) (lambda (y) (set! x (+ x 1)) (+ x y))) 2014-08-09T01:29:27Z nisstyre: pjb: "the top-level is hopeless" seems accurate here though 2014-08-09T01:29:33Z nisstyre: that is a very ugly behaviour imo 2014-08-09T01:29:47Z pjb: Then yes, (lambda (y) (set! x (+ x 1)) (+ x y)) has a free variables (x +), so it must be compiled as a closure. 2014-08-09T01:30:19Z vanila: I guess for my example to work I have to define (define g (lambda (y) y)) 2014-08-09T01:30:46Z kongtomorrow quit 2014-08-09T01:30:49Z pjb: nisstyre: IIRC, one can interpret the toplevel as a set of non-closed embedded lexical scopes (let ((f …)) (let ((g …)) … ; and no closing parentheses, until you exit the REPL/toplevel. 2014-08-09T01:31:18Z pjb: vanila: this g has no free variable, so it can be compiled as a simple function, or as a closure with an empty environment. 2014-08-09T01:31:19Z nisstyre: pjb: yep 2014-08-09T01:31:32Z vanila: but what if someone does (set! g f) 2014-08-09T01:31:39Z vanila: then it changes from not a closure to being a closure 2014-08-09T01:31:47Z vanila: and then this code breaks? (begin (f f-env 2) (g 3)) 2014-08-09T01:31:53Z vanila: since it needs f-env 2014-08-09T01:31:53Z pjb: vanila: no, because functions/closures are first class objects. 2014-08-09T01:32:02Z pjb: It doesn't matter what variables hold them. 2014-08-09T01:32:25Z pjb: (let ((f 1) (g 2)) (set! g f)) has no impact on the integer values. 2014-08-09T01:32:34Z pjb: Similarly, it would have no impact on the function values. 2014-08-09T01:32:56Z vanila: I don't understand 2014-08-09T01:33:12Z nisstyre: vanila: names are just names 2014-08-09T01:33:18Z nisstyre: you can change what they are bound to 2014-08-09T01:33:25Z nisstyre: but set! does not change the actual things 2014-08-09T01:33:54Z vanila: it's just like, if f is turned into a closure - the way you call 'f' has to change. Now if g isn't turned into a closure the way you call g doesn't change: But later with set! g could get replaced with f.. and to me it seems like that would break when you call g next 2014-08-09T01:34:29Z pjb: Assume you compile: (begin (fun) (clo)) it could be compiled to (begin (call (code fun) (env fun)) (call (code clo) (env clo))) 2014-08-09T01:35:03Z pjb: Compiling a function or closure would produce an object that would have the code and env properties. 2014-08-09T01:35:07Z nisstyre: rudybot: (let* ((a 2) (b a)) (set! a 4) (displayln b) (displayln a)) 2014-08-09T01:35:09Z rudybot: nisstyre: your sandbox is ready 2014-08-09T01:35:09Z rudybot: nisstyre: ; stdout: "2\n4\n" 2014-08-09T01:35:47Z nisstyre: vanila: you're right, the way you call it has to change 2014-08-09T01:35:51Z vanila: so basicalyl every function call ever should get turned into calling with a closure? 2014-08-09T01:36:04Z nisstyre: you extract the environment from the closure first, and then you pass it as a parameter to the function 2014-08-09T01:36:05Z pjb: That would be the simpliest way to do it. 2014-08-09T01:36:11Z nisstyre: the environment maps names to values 2014-08-09T01:36:25Z nisstyre: set! changes a binding in the environment to another value 2014-08-09T01:36:25Z pjb: Then you can have an optimization pass that eliminates the calls to (env fun) when the environment is empty. 2014-08-09T01:36:51Z vanila: hmmmm 2014-08-09T01:37:11Z nisstyre: hopefully that makes sense 2014-08-09T01:37:19Z nisstyre: see my example above with let* 2014-08-09T01:37:20Z vanila: I kind of get it 2014-08-09T01:37:21Z pjb: vanila: the point is that it's not static information, it must be attached to the run-time object representing the function or closure. 2014-08-09T01:37:51Z pjb: For example: (map (lambda (x) (x)) (list (lambda () 1) (let ((y 1)) (lambda () (set! y (+ 1 y)) y)))) 2014-08-09T01:37:57Z vanila: optimizing is scary, because I don't know if there's some crazy thing people can do which breaks the optimization 2014-08-09T01:38:12Z pjb: (lambda (x) (x)) must call an object bound to x that can be either a function or a closure. 2014-08-09T01:38:58Z nisstyre: the compiler or interpreter will of course know if it is beforehand 2014-08-09T01:38:58Z pjb: You can't (in general) pre-determine whether the environment will be empty or not. So it must be tested (if you make a difference) at run-time. 2014-08-09T01:39:10Z vanila: i see 2014-08-09T01:39:10Z nisstyre: eh 2014-08-09T01:39:20Z nisstyre: you could figure it out couldn't you? 2014-08-09T01:39:27Z vanila: I'm a bit worried that this will make my compiled code slow 2014-08-09T01:39:30Z pjb: Optimization is when you can pre-determine whether it'll be empty or not, so you can shortcut the test, and generate directly the code for one alternative or the other. 2014-08-09T01:39:36Z nisstyre: I guess only if you analyzed the entire program 2014-08-09T01:39:41Z pjb: yes. 2014-08-09T01:40:01Z vanila: I want to do that sort of optimization, but I'll definitely leave that until I have basic closure conversion working first of alll 2014-08-09T01:40:03Z pjb: Sometimes (often enough) you can determine it locally. 2014-08-09T01:40:03Z nisstyre: Stalin does optimizations like this I think 2014-08-09T01:40:28Z vanila: Thanks a lot both I feel like I knw how this pass works now :) 2014-08-09T01:40:38Z pjb: vanila: representing all functions as a pair of code and environment shouldn't be too costly anyways. Again, this is something that you can optimize out in a later phase. 2014-08-09T01:40:47Z vanila: ok, that's what I will do 2014-08-09T01:41:03Z vanila: and it's quite simple to change any (f x y z) just to ((code f) (env f) x y z) 2014-08-09T01:41:15Z pjb: yes. 2014-08-09T01:41:23Z vanila: bu this isn't in CPS form 2014-08-09T01:41:45Z vanila: I was going to do CPS then closure conversion 2014-08-09T01:41:55Z vanila: but now it looks like that will break the CPS form 2014-08-09T01:42:02Z nisstyre: you should probably read Compiling with Continuations 2014-08-09T01:42:15Z pjb: Unfortunately, I lost my CwC exemplar. I will have to buy a new copy… 2014-08-09T01:42:53Z nisstyre: vanila: you also have to handle "escaping functions" 2014-08-09T01:42:58Z nisstyre: functions that return themselves 2014-08-09T01:43:03Z nisstyre: and mutually recursive functions 2014-08-09T01:45:22Z vanila: i will try to read Compiling with Continuations 2014-08-09T01:45:51Z vanila: im just looking at this closure converstion page 2014-08-09T01:46:21Z nisstyre: yeah that website has a lot of good articles 2014-08-09T01:48:04Z vanila: I can't do closure conversion before CPS, because CPS might introduce new closures 2014-08-09T01:48:06Z vanila: (I think) 2014-08-09T01:49:41Z phax quit (Quit: phax) 2014-08-09T01:50:34Z ANGRYSTEVE quit (Quit: Sunya in my bunya) 2014-08-09T01:51:30Z nisstyre: vanila: it will 2014-08-09T01:51:40Z nisstyre: you should do cc after cps 2014-08-09T01:52:41Z vanila: maybe I should do (call-closure f x y z) instead of ((code f) (env f) x y z) and just emit differnet code for it 2014-08-09T01:53:48Z nisstyre: what does (code f) and (env f) do? 2014-08-09T01:54:03Z vanila: well if you had 2014-08-09T01:54:04Z nisstyre: extract the function and environment ? 2014-08-09T01:54:06Z vanila: yeah 2014-08-09T01:55:07Z nisstyre: (define (invoke closure args) (apply (closure-f closure) (closure-env closure) args)) 2014-08-09T01:55:10Z nisstyre: something like that 2014-08-09T01:56:33Z vanila: yeah 2014-08-09T02:03:18Z endthefed joined #scheme 2014-08-09T02:03:38Z mrowe_away is now known as mrowe 2014-08-09T02:05:10Z endthefed is now known as ceramic-houses 2014-08-09T02:06:25Z vraaid joined #scheme 2014-08-09T02:08:44Z vraid quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-08-09T02:23:19Z wilfredh quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2014-08-09T02:27:55Z ceramic-houses quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-08-09T02:34:30Z vanila: should I do closure conversion top down or bottom up? 2014-08-09T02:40:51Z mario-go` quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-08-09T02:41:33Z mario-go` joined #scheme 2014-08-09T02:44:46Z araujo quit (Quit: Leaving) 2014-08-09T02:52:48Z mrowe is now known as mrowe_away 2014-08-09T02:54:42Z BossKonaSegwaY quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2014-08-09T03:04:08Z Rptx joined #scheme 2014-08-09T03:10:58Z kongtomorrow joined #scheme 2014-08-09T03:12:03Z SrPx joined #scheme 2014-08-09T03:12:03Z kongtomorrow quit (Client Quit) 2014-08-09T03:12:42Z SrPx: Hello, is there any obvious reason for it to be `(let ((a 1) (b 2)) a)` instead of `(let (a 1) (b 2) a)` ? After all, cond is `(cond (a x) (b y) (c z))` 2014-08-09T03:13:02Z vraaid quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2014-08-09T03:13:18Z vanila: SrPx, it's (let ((var val) ...) body ...) 2014-08-09T03:13:27Z vanila: it can't be (let (var val) ... body ...) 2014-08-09T03:13:33Z vanila: because you wouldn't know where it changes over to body 2014-08-09T03:13:51Z SrPx: Ah makes sense, I wasn't aware there could be something after body... but what is that? 2014-08-09T03:13:56Z vanila: e.g. (let (a 1) (b 2) (f 3) (g 5)) 2014-08-09T03:14:00Z vanila: would be confusing 2014-08-09T03:14:11Z SrPx: ah nevermind, I get it 2014-08-09T03:14:13Z SrPx: thanks 2014-08-09T03:15:03Z SrPx: vanila: just an opinion, if I am writing a DSL where there can only be one expression after the binds... that is, `(let (a 1) (b 2) body)`, is it acceptable to skip that paren? 2014-08-09T03:15:30Z vanila: I think (let ((var val) ...) body) is better 2014-08-09T03:15:45Z vanila: it's a sublanguage of normal scheme, rather than something different that could trip people up and be confusing 2014-08-09T03:16:04Z SrPx: hmm I see 2014-08-09T03:17:00Z BossKonaSegwaY joined #scheme 2014-08-09T03:19:06Z crom joined #scheme 2014-08-09T03:26:46Z pjb: Don't fight the parentheses: they do not exist! 2014-08-09T03:27:00Z pjb: (car '(let ((var val)) (expr var))) --> let not ( !!! 2014-08-09T03:27:38Z karswell` joined #scheme 2014-08-09T03:27:44Z racycle joined #scheme 2014-08-09T03:28:23Z karswell quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-08-09T03:51:24Z vanila quit (Quit: Leaving) 2014-08-09T04:27:21Z Rptx quit (Quit: gonna sleep!) 2014-08-09T04:42:39Z amgarchIn9 joined #scheme 2014-08-09T04:42:53Z Riastradh quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-08-09T04:43:13Z Riastradh joined #scheme 2014-08-09T04:46:05Z effy quit (Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.) 2014-08-09T04:46:22Z effy joined #scheme 2014-08-09T04:54:24Z khisanth_ joined #scheme 2014-08-09T04:55:52Z vraaid joined #scheme 2014-08-09T04:57:15Z Khisanth quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2014-08-09T04:59:08Z Riastradh quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-08-09T05:04:57Z Riastradh joined #scheme 2014-08-09T05:08:57Z racycle quit (Quit: ZZZzzz…) 2014-08-09T05:12:14Z BossKonaSegwaY quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2014-08-09T05:20:22Z amgarchIn9 quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2014-08-09T05:27:35Z Alestan joined #scheme 2014-08-09T05:34:01Z BossKonaSegwaY joined #scheme 2014-08-09T05:35:45Z kongtomorrow joined #scheme 2014-08-09T05:37:15Z khisanth_ is now known as Khisanth 2014-08-09T05:39:39Z gravicappa joined #scheme 2014-08-09T05:49:48Z kongtomo_ joined #scheme 2014-08-09T05:50:48Z kongtomorrow quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2014-08-09T05:51:48Z kongtomo_ quit (Client Quit) 2014-08-09T06:11:25Z cdan joined #scheme 2014-08-09T06:23:40Z kongtomorrow joined #scheme 2014-08-09T06:47:20Z crom quit (Quit: Leaving) 2014-08-09T07:01:53Z turbofail2 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-08-09T07:09:24Z vraaid quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-08-09T07:10:09Z vraaid joined #scheme 2014-08-09T07:15:37Z SrPx quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2014-08-09T07:26:26Z Tiristor joined #scheme 2014-08-09T07:28:37Z vraaid quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-08-09T07:34:17Z pnkfelix joined #scheme 2014-08-09T07:38:20Z vraaid joined #scheme 2014-08-09T07:48:33Z cdan quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2014-08-09T08:01:10Z cdan joined #scheme 2014-08-09T08:31:55Z stepnem joined #scheme 2014-08-09T08:40:43Z sad0ur joined #scheme 2014-08-09T08:42:43Z wingo joined #scheme 2014-08-09T08:43:22Z Alestan quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-08-09T08:43:48Z ARM9 joined #scheme 2014-08-09T08:57:27Z kongtomorrow quit 2014-08-09T09:03:33Z wingo quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-08-09T09:06:21Z kongtomorrow joined #scheme 2014-08-09T09:06:29Z b4283 joined #scheme 2014-08-09T09:14:58Z ARM9 quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2014-08-09T09:26:40Z ARM9 joined #scheme 2014-08-09T09:33:44Z cdan quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2014-08-09T09:54:40Z rtra quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2014-08-09T10:00:23Z stamourv quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2014-08-09T10:00:56Z rtra joined #scheme 2014-08-09T10:01:51Z robot-beethoven quit (Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)) 2014-08-09T10:06:01Z wingo joined #scheme 2014-08-09T10:19:16Z dmiles_afk quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-08-09T10:19:47Z dmiles_afk joined #scheme 2014-08-09T10:26:07Z cibs quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-08-09T10:26:33Z cibs joined #scheme 2014-08-09T10:27:29Z kongtomorrow quit 2014-08-09T10:27:42Z Tiristor quit (Quit: Miranda IM! 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2014-08-09T20:40:02Z zacts: http://www.optalysys.com/technical-faqs/ 2014-08-09T20:40:25Z taylanub: zacts: high-level languages approach the problem from a mathematical perspective so it should be fairly universal 2014-08-09T20:40:32Z zacts: ok 2014-08-09T20:40:40Z taylanub: I have no idea about optical/quantum computing though 2014-08-09T20:41:14Z zacts: but we can agree that C would probably not be the best choice for quantumn / optical? 2014-08-09T20:41:49Z vanila: C cant do it 2014-08-09T20:42:06Z vanila: it's not clear how a quantum computer would be programmed 2014-08-09T20:42:29Z vanila: are you going to be joining gates together? just writing in normal scheme with a few quantum accelerated primitives? 2014-08-09T20:42:48Z zacts: ok 2014-08-09T20:43:18Z taylanub: it's noteworthy that the lambda calculus was *not* invented with computation in mind 2014-08-09T20:43:49Z zacts: I need to grok superpositions 2014-08-09T20:44:09Z amgarchIn9 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2014-08-09T20:44:12Z zacts: perhaps I could apply superpositions to (scheme). 2014-08-09T20:44:17Z amgarchIn9 joined #scheme 2014-08-09T20:44:23Z vanila: it's just linear algebra with over the field of complex numbers 2014-08-09T20:44:46Z vanila: there's a really good youtube channel about it, if you like 2014-08-09T20:44:53Z zacts: oh cool 2014-08-09T20:45:18Z zacts: so with quantum / optical it's probably going to get closer to pure mathematics 2014-08-09T20:45:20Z zacts: ? 2014-08-09T20:45:31Z taylanub: it's also noteworthy how much conversion happens while turning high-level program code into machine instructions. in a way, our hardware today doesn't really support functional programming very well if I'm not mistaken, we already shoehorn our ideas into the highly imperative nature of series of CPU instructions 2014-08-09T20:49:04Z ijp: http://www.het.brown.edu/people/andre/qlambda/ 2014-08-09T20:51:41Z lgt quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-08-09T20:52:04Z GGMethos quit (Quit: WeeChat 0.4.3) 2014-08-09T20:52:50Z amgarching joined #scheme 2014-08-09T20:53:12Z amgarchIn9 quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-08-09T20:58:34Z zacts: cool, thanks ijp 2014-08-09T21:00:18Z guampa quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-08-09T21:00:43Z guampa joined #scheme 2014-08-09T21:05:34Z cdan quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2014-08-09T21:08:44Z annodomini joined #scheme 2014-08-09T21:11:01Z kongtomorrow quit 2014-08-09T21:13:28Z kongtomorrow joined #scheme 2014-08-09T21:13:38Z ARM9 quit (Quit: Leaving) 2014-08-09T21:15:02Z zematis joined #scheme 2014-08-09T21:15:19Z alexabreu joined #scheme 2014-08-09T21:18:55Z alex-abreu quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2014-08-09T21:19:46Z hiroakip quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2014-08-09T21:19:51Z GGMethos joined #scheme 2014-08-09T21:22:49Z Nizumzen joined #scheme 2014-08-09T21:28:55Z Vutral_ quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2014-08-09T21:29:05Z kongtomorrow quit 2014-08-09T21:29:25Z Vutral quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2014-08-09T21:29:27Z Vutral___ quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2014-08-09T21:29:27Z Vutral__ quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2014-08-09T21:33:10Z phax quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-08-09T21:34:02Z bars0 quit (Quit: leaving) 2014-08-09T21:36:48Z przl joined #scheme 2014-08-09T21:39:06Z phax joined #scheme 2014-08-09T21:42:37Z Vutral joined #scheme 2014-08-09T21:45:26Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2014-08-09T21:52:03Z gravicappa quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-08-09T21:58:13Z lgt joined #scheme 2014-08-09T22:03:02Z AkashicLegend joined #scheme 2014-08-09T22:03:58Z Soft quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2014-08-09T22:05:19Z Soft joined #scheme 2014-08-09T22:08:28Z tadni`` joined #scheme 2014-08-09T22:09:36Z tadni` quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2014-08-09T22:10:57Z przl joined #scheme 2014-08-09T22:14:26Z vraaid joined #scheme 2014-08-09T22:14:56Z Vutral_ joined #scheme 2014-08-09T22:15:03Z Vutral__ joined #scheme 2014-08-09T22:15:06Z Vutral___ joined #scheme 2014-08-09T22:16:39Z vraid quit (Disconnected by services) 2014-08-09T22:16:42Z vraaid is now known as vraid 2014-08-09T22:17:58Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2014-08-09T22:18:51Z Alestan left #scheme 2014-08-09T22:19:12Z dmiles_afk quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-08-09T22:19:46Z dmiles_afk joined #scheme 2014-08-09T22:26:22Z tadni`` quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-08-09T22:27:22Z zematis quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-08-09T22:28:15Z pjb` joined #scheme 2014-08-09T22:30:13Z pjb quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2014-08-09T22:37:41Z tadni joined #scheme 2014-08-09T22:46:20Z kongtomorrow joined #scheme 2014-08-09T22:54:10Z annodomini quit (Quit: annodomini) 2014-08-09T22:54:39Z racycle joined #scheme 2014-08-09T23:06:42Z strg joined #scheme 2014-08-09T23:12:56Z phax quit (Quit: phax) 2014-08-09T23:13:31Z przl joined #scheme 2014-08-09T23:18:37Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2014-08-09T23:19:51Z lgt quit (Quit: see you soon) 2014-08-09T23:47:56Z Nizumzen quit (Quit: KVIrc 4.2.0 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/) 2014-08-09T23:48:53Z kongtomorrow quit 2014-08-09T23:49:48Z vanila: should letrec be defined in terms of the y combinator? 2014-08-09T23:51:07Z offby1: it should be defined in terms of a large, vibrating egg 2014-08-09T23:55:24Z vraaid joined #scheme 2014-08-09T23:55:43Z vraid quit (Disconnected by services) 2014-08-09T23:55:46Z vraaid is now known as vraid 2014-08-09T23:59:22Z tadni quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-08-10T00:01:09Z tadni joined #scheme 2014-08-10T00:02:50Z tadni` joined #scheme 2014-08-10T00:03:17Z kongtomorrow joined #scheme 2014-08-10T00:10:27Z taylanub doesn't get the reference but laughes anyway 2014-08-10T00:11:31Z taylanub: vanila: I think letrec kind of has no analogue in the lambda calculus 2014-08-10T00:11:57Z offby1: taylanub: https://gist.github.com/f4c1b2ba49a8943cb9ff 2014-08-10T00:14:15Z przl joined #scheme 2014-08-10T00:15:26Z kongtomorrow quit 2014-08-10T00:19:46Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-08-10T00:40:17Z Vutral quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2014-08-10T00:40:17Z Vutral__ quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-08-10T00:40:21Z Vutral___ quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2014-08-10T00:40:37Z Vutral_ quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2014-08-10T00:41:06Z Vutral joined #scheme 2014-08-10T00:41:14Z Vutral quit (Changing host) 2014-08-10T00:41:14Z Vutral joined #scheme 2014-08-10T00:41:14Z Vutral_ joined #scheme 2014-08-10T00:41:31Z Vutral__ joined #scheme 2014-08-10T00:48:26Z Vutral- joined #scheme 2014-08-10T00:49:41Z vraaid joined #scheme 2014-08-10T00:50:49Z oldskirt_ joined #scheme 2014-08-10T00:51:56Z vraid quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-08-10T00:52:38Z oldskirt quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2014-08-10T01:02:58Z stepnem quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-08-10T01:15:01Z przl joined #scheme 2014-08-10T01:16:44Z amgarching quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-08-10T01:19:10Z peterhil quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2014-08-10T01:21:14Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2014-08-10T01:22:42Z w0rm quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-08-10T01:25:13Z peterhil joined #scheme 2014-08-10T01:35:37Z phax joined #scheme 2014-08-10T01:48:42Z ANGRYSTEVE quit (Quit: Sunya in my bunya) 2014-08-10T01:49:18Z vanila: can anyone help me with closure conversion? 2014-08-10T01:49:27Z vanila: i'm confused about how it works if two lambdas share a free var 2014-08-10T01:57:18Z omefire1 joined #scheme 2014-08-10T01:59:33Z omefire2 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-08-10T02:03:55Z oldskirt_ is now known as oldskirt 2014-08-10T02:17:33Z przl joined #scheme 2014-08-10T02:22:52Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2014-08-10T02:29:55Z kongtomorrow joined #scheme 2014-08-10T02:31:30Z davexunit joined #scheme 2014-08-10T02:40:56Z pjb`: vanila: (eq? (env f1) (env f2)) --> #t (eq? (code f1) (code f2)) --> #f ; what's confusing in that? 2014-08-10T02:42:01Z vanila: pjb`, but they're not eq, http://lpaste.net/109147 2014-08-10T02:42:10Z pjb`: they should. 2014-08-10T02:42:26Z pjb`: Or, if you toy with embedded environment, they should share parts of it. 2014-08-10T02:43:13Z vanila: How should make-box be closure converted? 2014-08-10T02:45:14Z pjb`: http://paste.lisp.org/+32M5 2014-08-10T02:56:27Z tadni` quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-08-10T02:57:38Z tadni` joined #scheme 2014-08-10T02:59:04Z tadni quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-08-10T03:02:06Z tadni joined #scheme 2014-08-10T03:04:38Z annodomini joined #scheme 2014-08-10T03:09:04Z vanila: I don't at all see how this works in a real compiler 2014-08-10T03:09:15Z vanila: I'm trying to do it by hand and it breaks CPS form 2014-08-10T03:12:36Z _1_Romeo joined #scheme 2014-08-10T03:16:48Z vanila quit (Quit: Leaving) 2014-08-10T03:18:19Z przl joined #scheme 2014-08-10T03:19:21Z davexunit quit 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2014-08-10T12:10:52Z vanila: do most scheme compilers remove set! from the language? 2014-08-10T12:26:18Z ivan\ joined #scheme 2014-08-10T12:26:18Z bit` quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2014-08-10T12:32:17Z kongtomo_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-08-10T12:32:49Z kongtomorrow joined #scheme 2014-08-10T12:37:09Z vanila: How do you make the chicken scheme REPL easier to use? 2014-08-10T12:37:17Z vanila: It's so annoying i ncan't delete or move around in the buffer 2014-08-10T12:40:57Z bit` joined #scheme 2014-08-10T12:43:15Z hiroakip joined #scheme 2014-08-10T12:47:41Z kongtomorrow quit 2014-08-10T12:59:53Z taylanub: offby1: what the hell 2014-08-10T13:00:15Z taylanub: do those, err .. devices .. have not a proper name? 2014-08-10T13:00:32Z taylanub: I bet qDot would know but ey's not in this channel. 2014-08-10T13:06:52Z amgarching quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-08-10T13:09:50Z fikusz quit (Quit: Leaving) 2014-08-10T13:15:25Z fikusz joined #scheme 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Then what the closures share is not the original values of the assigned variables, but cells holding whatever the current values of the variables are. 2014-08-10T13:37:12Z b4283 joined #scheme 2014-08-10T13:42:16Z vanila: thanks Riastradh ,that is what I will do 2014-08-10T13:55:49Z vanila: How is syntax-rules implemented? 2014-08-10T13:56:01Z vanila: I'm confused about the hygiene part 2014-08-10T13:59:11Z pnkfelix joined #scheme 2014-08-10T14:00:58Z Riastradh: For the hygiene part, read Jonathan Rees's article `How to implement lexically scoped macros' in Lisp Pointers 1993 or so. 2014-08-10T14:01:29Z Riastradh: For the pattern matching part, *shrug*. Once you have the hygiene part working, the pattern language isn't terribly conceptually tricky. 2014-08-10T14:01:49Z vanila: thanks! 2014-08-10T14:02:47Z eMBee quit (*.net *.split) 2014-08-10T14:06:29Z khisanth_ is now known as Khisanth 2014-08-10T14:07:22Z sad0ur quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-08-10T14:09:24Z sad0ur joined #scheme 2014-08-10T14:09:36Z eMBee joined #scheme 2014-08-10T14:16:02Z annodomini joined #scheme 2014-08-10T14:16:32Z hiroakip quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-08-10T14:20:52Z zlrth joined #scheme 2014-08-10T14:22:06Z AkashicLegend quit (Quit: AkashicLegend) 2014-08-10T14:22:17Z BossKonaSegwaY quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-08-10T14:24:37Z AkashicLegend joined #scheme 2014-08-10T14:32:47Z Rodya_ joined #scheme 2014-08-10T14:36:25Z taylanub quit (Disconnected by services) 2014-08-10T14:36:47Z taylanub joined #scheme 2014-08-10T14:41:54Z annodomini quit (Quit: annodomini) 2014-08-10T14:42:25Z BossKonaSegwaY joined #scheme 2014-08-10T14:43:01Z tadni 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#scheme 2014-08-10T22:19:18Z dmiles_afk quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-08-10T22:19:52Z dmiles_afk joined #scheme 2014-08-10T22:28:00Z renopt quit (Quit: berb) 2014-08-10T22:28:27Z tstc` joined #scheme 2014-08-10T22:33:50Z tyho joined #scheme 2014-08-10T22:34:47Z annodomini quit (Quit: annodomini) 2014-08-10T22:35:29Z tyho: I am guessing this is a much hated question, but which scheme implmentation should I use to work through SICP? I am on debian if it is relevent. Sorry for a probbably often repeated question. 2014-08-10T22:43:00Z dmiles joined #scheme 2014-08-10T22:43:07Z girrig joined #scheme 2014-08-10T22:44:23Z dmiles_afk quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-08-10T22:47:35Z pjb: mit-scheme. 2014-08-10T22:48:08Z pjb: Or perhaps Racketer, which has a sicp language if I heard correctly. 2014-08-10T22:48:27Z pjb: tyho: actually any r5rs scheme would do, as long as you're able to adapt to slight differences in implementations. 2014-08-10T22:48:41Z pjb: Some even do sicp in different languages, from C++ to Common Lisp! 2014-08-10T22:48:49Z pjb: (there are masochists). 2014-08-10T22:49:17Z tyho: pjb: I read there was a scip mode for racket 2014-08-10T22:49:25Z tyho: I just installed racket 2014-08-10T22:49:34Z zematis joined #scheme 2014-08-10T22:49:42Z tyho: seems to be some politcs between sicp vs htdp 2014-08-10T22:51:16Z guampa quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-08-10T22:52:11Z guampa joined #scheme 2014-08-10T22:55:34Z mrowe_away is now 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say get a lawyer of your own 2014-08-11T06:31:21Z DGASAU quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-08-11T06:34:07Z Vutral- joined #scheme 2014-08-11T06:36:58Z Vutral- quit (Excess Flood) 2014-08-11T06:39:43Z DGASAU joined #scheme 2014-08-11T06:41:57Z oldskirt_ is now known as oldskirt 2014-08-11T06:42:39Z wingo joined #scheme 2014-08-11T06:45:34Z przl joined #scheme 2014-08-11T06:49:45Z zematis joined #scheme 2014-08-11T07:08:25Z alexs` joined #scheme 2014-08-11T07:08:47Z alexs` is now known as ventonegro 2014-08-11T07:10:12Z tadni`` quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-08-11T07:11:14Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2014-08-11T07:24:35Z joast quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2014-08-11T07:36:25Z kongtomorrow quit 2014-08-11T07:51:59Z pnkfelix joined #scheme 2014-08-11T07:56:41Z eagleflo_ is now known as eagleflo 2014-08-11T08:02:18Z Vutral- joined #scheme 2014-08-11T08:02:19Z Vutral- quit (Excess Flood) 2014-08-11T08:09:52Z Vutral- joined #scheme 2014-08-11T08:10:54Z 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However when I evaluate this block in mit-scheme it returns "Unbound variable 'a'". I am not really sure why this is happening. Any thoughts would be helpful. 2014-08-11T18:59:03Z hjolt: Here is the link in a more readable format: http://pastebin.com/E9UmD6sJ 2014-08-11T19:02:57Z przl quit (Quit: leaving) 2014-08-11T19:03:04Z oldskirt_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2014-08-11T19:06:41Z fikusz joined #scheme 2014-08-11T19:07:30Z kongtomorrow quit 2014-08-11T19:07:37Z turbofail: well for one thing you're missing a close paren after (iter a 0) 2014-08-11T19:07:45Z turbofail: actually that's probably the only thing 2014-08-11T19:09:08Z hjolt: turbofail: that is copy paste error, my real code closes the definition properly, my mistake I will update the link 2014-08-11T19:09:35Z gnomon: I'm seeing something weird with the inner parentheses in "(if (> a b) ...)" - the parens are rendering in my browser as boxes. 2014-08-11T19:09:57Z hjolt: ............... 2014-08-11T19:10:21Z hjolt: gnomon: Thank you, I filled in the template for the exercise and accidentally left the angle brackets in 2014-08-11T19:10:33Z hjolt: gnomon: I can barely see the angle on my screen 2014-08-11T19:10:58Z gnomon: Does the procedure evaluate successfully when those characters are replaced? 2014-08-11T19:11:16Z Vutral joined #scheme 2014-08-11T19:11:21Z Vutral quit (Excess Flood) 2014-08-11T19:11:39Z gnomon: It looks like it ought to, with the addition of a trailing closing parenthesis. 2014-08-11T19:13:30Z hjolt: gnomon: yes, everything works as I expected now. Thanks 2014-08-11T19:15:19Z gnomon: Huzzah! 2014-08-11T19:15:38Z gnomon: You're welcome. I'm my bizarre choice of primary browser finally did someone some good. 2014-08-11T19:17:14Z mario-goulart: Mosaic? 2014-08-11T19:18:16Z gnomon: elinks. 2014-08-11T19:18:38Z gnomon: (a version of elinks four years out of date, for that matter: 0.12pre5) 2014-08-11T19:40:40Z dan64 quit (Quit: ZNC - http://znc.in) 2014-08-11T19:41:24Z dan64 joined #scheme 2014-08-11T19:43:02Z vraid joined #scheme 2014-08-11T19:44:54Z dan64 quit (Client Quit) 2014-08-11T19:45:41Z dan64 joined #scheme 2014-08-11T19:49:16Z ARM9 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2014-08-11T19:55:12Z pnkfelix joined #scheme 2014-08-11T19:56:52Z kongtomorrow joined #scheme 2014-08-11T19:58:39Z dan64 quit (Quit: ZNC - http://znc.in) 2014-08-11T19:59:27Z dan64 joined #scheme 2014-08-11T20:00:02Z gravicappa quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-08-11T20:08:02Z zematis joined #scheme 2014-08-11T20:08:34Z hiroakip joined #scheme 2014-08-11T20:09:02Z oldskirt joined #scheme 2014-08-11T20:12:58Z robot-beethoven joined #scheme 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vanila joined #scheme 2014-08-14T00:14:55Z vanila: hi 2014-08-14T00:15:00Z nisstyre quit (Quit: WeeChat 0.4.3) 2014-08-14T00:15:03Z vanila: could partial evaluation be used to replace scheme macros? 2014-08-14T00:15:17Z nisstyre joined #scheme 2014-08-14T00:15:47Z pjdelport: vanila: They're probably orthogonal. 2014-08-14T00:16:24Z vanila: darn, okay :) 2014-08-14T00:17:03Z pjdelport: vanila: Have you heard of John Shutt's Kernel language / Scheme dialect? 2014-08-14T00:17:09Z pjdelport: http://web.cs.wpi.edu/~jshutt/kernel.html 2014-08-14T00:19:41Z pjdelport: vanila: That introduces a new fexpr-like construct, $vau, that subsumes macros and special forms. 2014-08-14T00:20:48Z vanila: thanks, this looks nice 2014-08-14T00:24:33Z zhaoym joined #scheme 2014-08-14T00:34:16Z zhaoym quit (Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)) 2014-08-14T00:38:09Z mrowe_away is now known as mrowe 2014-08-14T00:57:24Z mrowe is now known as mrowe_away 2014-08-14T01:02:51Z oldskirt joined #scheme 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for Emacs)) 2014-08-14T14:09:48Z zz_jrhorn424 is now known as jrhorn424 2014-08-14T14:12:40Z jusss joined #scheme 2014-08-14T14:15:28Z araujo joined #scheme 2014-08-14T14:15:37Z araujo quit (Changing host) 2014-08-14T14:15:37Z araujo joined #scheme 2014-08-14T14:20:01Z b4283 joined #scheme 2014-08-14T14:20:16Z AkashicLegend quit (Quit: AkashicLegend) 2014-08-14T14:21:30Z weinholt quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2014-08-14T14:27:02Z hjolt: I am working on SICP 1.45 and keep getting Floating point overflow which I don't believe is expected. Scheme works well with bignums from what I remember 2014-08-14T14:27:24Z jlongster joined #scheme 2014-08-14T14:28:17Z hjolt: Here is the code: http://pastebin.com/P8CRsbiZ any pointers on why overflow is happening would be really helpful 2014-08-14T14:28:24Z jusss quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-08-14T14:29:30Z hjolt: oops, forgot to include the overflow case. Here is the correct paste: http://pastebin.com/77wm5Szj 2014-08-14T14:30:00Z annodomini quit (Quit: annodomini) 2014-08-14T14:34:14Z balrog_ joined #scheme 2014-08-14T14:36:25Z taylanub quit (Disconnected by services) 2014-08-14T14:36:42Z iterrogo joined #scheme 2014-08-14T14:36:57Z taylanub joined #scheme 2014-08-14T14:37:57Z b4284 joined #scheme 2014-08-14T14:38:01Z b4283 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-08-14T14:43:05Z eeezkil joined #scheme 2014-08-14T14:45:02Z ventonegro: hjolt: floating-point numbers are not bignums 2014-08-14T14:45:19Z ventonegro: bignums are arbitrarily large integers 2014-08-14T14:46:09Z balrog_: ventonegro what do you mean by arbitrarily large 2014-08-14T14:46:15Z balrog_: is there no size constraint 2014-08-14T14:46:19Z balrog_: period? 2014-08-14T14:46:24Z taylanub: balrog_: the size constraint is your RAM 2014-08-14T14:46:38Z balrog_: ahh, i see 2014-08-14T14:47:02Z mario-goulart: Or RAM + swap. :-) 2014-08-14T14:47:18Z taylanub: right .. let's just say memory 2014-08-14T14:47:24Z mario-goulart: :-) 2014-08-14T14:47:37Z taylanub: needless to say these heap-allocated numbers are less efficient to work with but Scheme favors having mathematical accuracy for the *general* case and special-casing efficiency concerns, which I think is great 2014-08-14T14:53:08Z balrog_: have any of you guys gone through SICP? 2014-08-14T14:53:21Z gravicappa quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-08-14T14:53:41Z pjb: balrog_: partly. 2014-08-14T14:54:10Z weinholt joined #scheme 2014-08-14T14:54:28Z balrog_: pjb: i honestly dont know if i have the stamina to go through all of it 2014-08-14T14:54:35Z balrog_: do you think its worth 2014-08-14T14:55:08Z pjb: It's worth it indeed. Take your time. 2014-08-14T14:55:32Z pjb: You may also watch the videos, to motivate you (and perhaps to go a little faster than thru the book). 2014-08-14T14:55:38Z balrog_: videos? 2014-08-14T14:56:09Z pjb: http://ocw.mit.edu/courses/electrical-engineering-and-computer-science/6-001-structure-and-interpretation-of-computer-programs-spring-2005/video-lectures/ 2014-08-14T14:56:09Z rudybot_: http://tinyurl.com/39g5p3o 2014-08-14T14:56:14Z pjb: Also on youtube. 2014-08-14T14:57:07Z balrog_: oh awesome 2014-08-14T14:57:16Z balrog_: its even taught by ableson + sussman 2014-08-14T14:57:32Z BossKonaSegwaY quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-08-14T14:57:42Z pjb: Yes, they're great teachers. 2014-08-14T14:58:16Z pjb: those videos were done with the 1st edition of sicp. You're reading a later edition, but they're still good. 2014-08-14T14:58:17Z eli joined #scheme 2014-08-14T14:58:17Z eli quit (Changing host) 2014-08-14T14:58:17Z eli joined #scheme 2014-08-14T14:58:44Z balrog_: pjb: are there any big changes to keep in mind? 2014-08-14T14:58:45Z taylanub: random announcement: the Guile-integrated version of Emacs has recently been updated and now really uses the Guile VM to execute Elisp. (doesn't compile for me ATM but probably a minor issue) git://git.hcoop.net/git/bpt/emacs.git 2014-08-14T15:00:03Z hjolt: ventonegro: Is racket's number system any different? because I am gauging my solutions against some online ones that are written in racket and the 2^64 doesnt overflow using that solution 2014-08-14T15:01:11Z leppie: even using floating point 2^64 should not be an issue 2014-08-14T15:01:13Z theseb joined #scheme 2014-08-14T15:01:23Z davexunit: taylanub: whoa it actually got updated!! 2014-08-14T15:02:21Z teiresia1 quit (Changing host) 2014-08-14T15:02:21Z teiresia1 joined #scheme 2014-08-14T15:02:36Z hjolt: leppie: That is what I expected as well, but I am still seeing overflows. I will step through the code again. 2014-08-14T15:02:46Z teiresia1 is now known as teiresias 2014-08-14T15:03:00Z leppie: probably no bignum support and only uses fixnums 2014-08-14T15:03:12Z leppie: try 2.0^64 2014-08-14T15:03:37Z weinholt quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-08-14T15:05:30Z hjolt: leppie: no, still getting overflow; 2014-08-14T15:05:52Z leppie: it's not you, it's your scheme ;p 2014-08-14T15:06:24Z hjolt: mit-scheme: Release 9.2 || Microcode 15.3 || Runtime 15.7 || SF 4.41 || LIAR/x86-64 4.118 || Edwin 3.116 2014-08-14T15:06:31Z hjolt: possibly it doesnt support this? 2014-08-14T15:09:32Z pjb: balrog_: no, nothing important. 2014-08-14T15:17:40Z jrslepak_ is now known as jrslepak 2014-08-14T15:19:59Z BossKonaSegwaY joined #scheme 2014-08-14T15:26:58Z yacks quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-08-14T15:27:30Z kuribas joined #scheme 2014-08-14T15:28:49Z yacks joined #scheme 2014-08-14T15:31:39Z jlongste` joined #scheme 2014-08-14T15:33:48Z Rodya_ joined #scheme 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sure someone already did it 2014-08-15T08:54:41Z boycottg00gle: or maybe something similar? 2014-08-15T08:54:58Z boycottg00gle: just like the idea and don't have the time ... 2014-08-15T09:01:37Z safety quit (Quit: Linkinus - http://linkinus.com) 2014-08-15T09:07:18Z gravicappa joined #scheme 2014-08-15T09:10:30Z boycottg00gle: maybe snd has something like that 2014-08-15T09:38:38Z jusss quit (Quit: ERC Version 5.2 (IRC client for Emacs)) 2014-08-15T09:53:52Z wingo joined #scheme 2014-08-15T09:56:54Z kvda quit (Quit: z____z) 2014-08-15T09:59:42Z kvda joined #scheme 2014-08-15T10:05:02Z robot-beethoven quit (Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)) 2014-08-15T10:09:50Z ijp joined #scheme 2014-08-15T10:16:36Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2014-08-15T10:18:41Z wingo quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2014-08-15T10:50:25Z yacks quit (Quit: Leaving) 2014-08-15T10:57:35Z ANGRYSTEVE joined #scheme 2014-08-15T11:01:02Z vinleod joined #scheme 2014-08-15T11:05:40Z b4283 quit (Quit: 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Why would you do that to yourself? 2014-08-15T13:46:19Z gnomon: ...and although that sounds rhetorical - and it at least partially is - I really am curious about your reasoning. 2014-08-15T13:46:41Z annodomini quit (Client Quit) 2014-08-15T13:47:29Z ijp: gnomon: recent medical literature suggests you need at least 5 ads a day 2014-08-15T13:47:52Z leppie quit 2014-08-15T13:48:34Z pobody quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2014-08-15T13:49:07Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2014-08-15T13:51:25Z leppie joined #scheme 2014-08-15T14:02:25Z developernotes joined #scheme 2014-08-15T14:06:22Z effy_ joined #scheme 2014-08-15T14:09:03Z effy quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2014-08-15T14:19:25Z kuribas joined #scheme 2014-08-15T14:24:42Z visualshock quit (Quit: Leaving) 2014-08-15T14:26:03Z developernotes quit (Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2014-08-15T14:26:24Z Rodya_ joined #scheme 2014-08-15T14:28:26Z theseb joined #scheme 2014-08-15T14:29:11Z theseb left #scheme 2014-08-15T14:35:37Z taylanub quit (Disconnected by services) 2014-08-15T14:36:16Z taylanub joined #scheme 2014-08-15T14:38:01Z iterrogo joined #scheme 2014-08-15T14:38:26Z trptcolin joined #scheme 2014-08-15T14:38:38Z jlongster joined #scheme 2014-08-15T14:39:45Z trptcolin: is it correct to say that hygienic macros make variable capture (as described by Paul Graham/On Lisp) *impossible*? or is that overstating? 2014-08-15T14:40:15Z Rodya_ quit (Quit: Ex-Chat) 2014-08-15T14:40:52Z developernotes joined #scheme 2014-08-15T14:41:12Z pjb joined #scheme 2014-08-15T14:41:19Z taylanub: trptcolin: hygienic simply means there's no shadowing of that kind happening 2014-08-15T14:41:42Z gnomon: trptcolin, hygienic macros do not prohibit the existence of other facilities for performing variable capture. 2014-08-15T14:41:47Z taylanub: a macro system can support hygienic, unhygienic, and both if it wants. syntax-rules is hygienic only. syntax-case can deliberately introduce non-hygiene 2014-08-15T14:42:22Z ijp: define hygiene 2014-08-15T14:42:36Z gnomon: washing your hands after petting the cat 2014-08-15T14:42:44Z ijp: http://okmij.org/ftp/Scheme/macros.html#dirty-macros 2014-08-15T14:42:45Z trptcolin: cool, that helps 2014-08-15T14:42:45Z taylanub: ijp: does it really matter whether it's mathematically well defined? 2014-08-15T14:43:37Z pjb: When it's formally defined, it can more easily be processed, than when it's not. 2014-08-15T14:43:58Z Riastradh: Expand (if-it p c a) => (let ((it p)) (if it c a)), expand (or a b) => (aif a it b), write (let ((it 5)) (or #f it)). What do you get? 2014-08-15T14:44:04Z Riastradh: s/aif/if-it/1 2014-08-15T14:45:17Z Riastradh: The `hygienic' answer is 5; the `unhygienic' answer is #f. 2014-08-15T14:45:29Z ijp: taylanub: well, read the above oleg/al petrofskey code. Do you consider it hygienic? referentially transparent? If so, then you have to agree that it clearly doesn't prevent variable capture 2014-08-15T14:46:12Z Riastradh: ijp, what it is is a bad idea! Recursive substitution like that, before macro expansion, is no good. 2014-08-15T14:47:42Z ijp: agreed 2014-08-15T14:48:59Z taylanub: ok yeah, it gets crazy as you dig deep; I was aiming for a simple pragmatic answer 2014-08-15T14:49:19Z ee_cc_ joined #scheme 2014-08-15T14:49:41Z Riastradh: Pragmatic answer: variable capture can be done `hygienically'. The real point is whether macros can have reliable interfaces independent of how you spelled their implementations. 2014-08-15T14:49:52Z Riastradh: Unhygienic macros can't. 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joined #scheme 2014-08-17T15:11:30Z jcowan: A puzzle requiring a proof, or at least a good knock-down argument: 2014-08-17T15:11:59Z jcowan: I have two hash tables mapping arbitrary keys to numbers, and I want to compute the absolute difference of the numbers for corresponding keys. 2014-08-17T15:13:50Z jcowan: This can be done by scanning the first table and getting the absdiffs, where absent means 0, and then scanning the second table and copying over any values that aren't in the first table. 2014-08-17T15:14:49Z jcowan: However, if I don't want to allocate a result hash table but reuse one of the two I have, I don't see how to do it correctly, or rather I cannot convince myself that the above algorithm is either correct or incorrect. 2014-08-17T15:15:57Z jcowan: Does anyone have any insights on this one? 2014-08-17T15:16:31Z samth: jcowan: what's the spec when a key is in one but not the other? 2014-08-17T15:16:59Z offby1 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 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I was wondering if there are any implementations that support R7RS yet? 2014-08-18T07:13:43Z BossKonaSegwaY quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2014-08-18T07:13:46Z elderK: Like, fully? 2014-08-18T07:13:49Z elderK: Or damn near? 2014-08-18T07:16:55Z akp quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-08-18T07:17:08Z akp joined #scheme 2014-08-18T07:19:41Z kvda: Chibi and Chicken 2014-08-18T07:20:21Z taylanub: Guile's r7rs branch is near 2014-08-18T07:22:16Z ijp: elderK: *r7rs small* 2014-08-18T07:22:28Z elderK: ijp: indeed. 2014-08-18T07:22:45Z ijp: the latter is trivially unsupported 2014-08-18T07:23:11Z elderK: It'd be nice to be able to use r7rs's features... 2014-08-18T07:23:21Z elderK: like #0=('a 'b . #0#) 2014-08-18T07:23:21Z elderK: etc. 2014-08-18T07:23:42Z elderK: I mean r7rs was agreed on like a year ago now? 2014-08-18T07:24:20Z ijp: that syntax was an srfi so you can probably find it in many schemes already 2014-08-18T07:25:29Z elderK: Hope so, it's really useful. 2014-08-18T07:25:31Z ijp: 38 2014-08-18T07:25:44Z elderK: Other stuff too, the module system. 2014-08-18T07:25:48Z elderK: the exception/condition system. 2014-08-18T07:26:16Z ijp: their original exception proposal was ridiculous 2014-08-18T07:27:01Z ijp: IIRC, the current version is the r6rs/srfi 34/35 one 2014-08-18T07:27:39Z BossKonaSegwaY joined #scheme 2014-08-18T07:32:14Z elderK: Sweet. 2014-08-18T07:32:16Z elderK: Thanks ijp. 2014-08-18T07:41:34Z eeezkil joined #scheme 2014-08-18T07:52:20Z LeoNerd quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-08-18T07:52:46Z LeoNerd joined #scheme 2014-08-18T07:55:54Z taylanub: it ended up using `guard' (from R6RS I think) which apparently is very bad.. 2014-08-18T07:56:29Z taylanub: there's the more low-level `with-exception-handler' too though 2014-08-18T08:03:40Z phipes joined #scheme 2014-08-18T08:05:15Z w0rm_ joined #scheme 2014-08-18T08:07:49Z Gyps quit (Quit: Gyps) 2014-08-18T08:14:58Z phipes quit (Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com) 2014-08-18T08:19:34Z stepnem joined #scheme 2014-08-18T08:22:40Z kongtomorrow quit 2014-08-18T08:24:58Z kongtomorrow joined #scheme 2014-08-18T08:25:19Z elderK: taylanub: why is guard bad? 2014-08-18T08:26:27Z oleo__ joined #scheme 2014-08-18T08:27:09Z oleo is now known as Guest74166 2014-08-18T08:27:27Z wingo joined #scheme 2014-08-18T08:28:07Z Guest74166 quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2014-08-18T08:30:30Z taylanub: elderK: you can search the scheme-reports ML for Wingo's critique. from what I understood it's because the cond clauses of the guard are executed in the dynamic environment of the guard clause instead of where the exception was raised, and then if none of the clauses match it jumps back to the dynamic environment of the 'raise' but with just the exception handler changed to that which is one 2014-08-18T08:30:30Z taylanub: level above the 'guard' that just failed to match ... 2014-08-18T08:31:04Z taylanub: so it jumps back and forth and back and forth until some guard matches, which is for some reasons undesirable in an error situation where you want as little extra action as possible 2014-08-18T08:31:23Z taylanub: don't ask me about specific details on why that's bad though 2014-08-18T08:34:23Z elderK: It sounds unpredictable. 2014-08-18T08:34:30Z elderK: or rather, difficult to predict. 2014-08-18T08:41:40Z kvda quit (Quit: z____z) 2014-08-18T09:12:50Z jusss quit (Quit: ERC Version 5.2 (IRC client for Emacs)) 2014-08-18T09:16:41Z zz_jrhorn424 is now known as jrhorn424 2014-08-18T09:17:32Z Flaoer quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-08-18T09:19:26Z jrhorn424 is now known as zz_jrhorn424 2014-08-18T09:20:03Z guampa quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-08-18T09:27:16Z guampa joined #scheme 2014-08-18T09:39:27Z Suigin joined #scheme 2014-08-18T09:41:48Z wingo quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2014-08-18T10:09:05Z robot-beethoven quit (Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)) 2014-08-18T10:13:01Z BossKonaSegwaY quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2014-08-18T10:26:37Z BossKonaSegwaY joined #scheme 2014-08-18T10:26:41Z b4283 quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2014-08-18T10:28:43Z dmiles_afk quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-08-18T10:29:27Z dmiles_afk joined #scheme 2014-08-18T10:38:57Z kuribas joined #scheme 2014-08-18T10:51:18Z kongtomorrow quit 2014-08-18T10:53:04Z gravicappa joined #scheme 2014-08-18T10:56:50Z cky: ijp: "an" SRFI? Ew. 2014-08-18T10:57:00Z cky: That's like "an" FAQ. 2014-08-18T10:57:07Z cky: or maybe like "an" hero. ;-) 2014-08-18T10:57:46Z ijp: an FAQ is correct, an hero is not 2014-08-18T10:57:56Z ijp: vowel sound, not vowel letter 2014-08-18T10:58:36Z cky: SRFI is pronounced as "surfie" (see http://srfi.schemers.org/srfi-faq.html), and I pronounce FAQ as "fack". 2014-08-18T10:59:43Z ijp: I fundamentally disagree with both of those pronunciations 2014-08-18T11:00:06Z cky: Okay, do you pronounce "lol" as one syllable or three? 2014-08-18T11:00:35Z ijp: time has lowercased it, so one syllable 2014-08-18T11:00:44Z cky: *nods* 2014-08-18T11:01:30Z cky: .oO(ijp is lowercased, but I still pronounce the letters separately. ;-)) 2014-08-18T11:03:36Z cky: I pronounce my name as separate letters (cee kay why), but I've heard people pronounce it as "sky", "ski", "sicky", etc. 2014-08-18T11:06:07Z cky: Back when I was at university, when the system was on Solaris, and there was no "ps x", I often used "ps -fU cky" to list all my processes. Other people noticed that and gave me a somewhat obscene nickname that starts with "fu" and ends with "cky". :-) 2014-08-18T11:08:58Z davexunit joined #scheme 2014-08-18T11:21:16Z eivuokko[-] joined #scheme 2014-08-18T11:22:22Z kongtomorrow joined #scheme 2014-08-18T11:23:33Z eivuokko quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2014-08-18T11:27:07Z kongtomorrow quit (Client Quit) 2014-08-18T11:27:41Z ANGRYSTEVE joined #scheme 2014-08-18T11:27:41Z ANGRYSTEVE quit (Changing host) 2014-08-18T11:27:41Z ANGRYSTEVE joined #scheme 2014-08-18T11:33:44Z ijp quit (Quit: `(death to the ,(random-choose '(north east south west)))) 2014-08-18T11:34:50Z fridim_ joined #scheme 2014-08-18T11:49:19Z petercommand quit (Quit: leaving) 2014-08-18T11:49:48Z petercommand joined #scheme 2014-08-18T11:57:33Z BossKonaSegwaY quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-08-18T11:59:15Z kuribas quit (Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)) 2014-08-18T12:16:29Z MichaelRaskin quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2014-08-18T12:19:47Z przl joined #scheme 2014-08-18T12:19:49Z BossKonaSegwaY joined #scheme 2014-08-18T12:20:09Z przl quit (Client Quit) 2014-08-18T12:20:24Z przl joined #scheme 2014-08-18T12:21:22Z davexunit quit (Quit: Later) 2014-08-18T12:21:48Z przl quit (Client Quit) 2014-08-18T12:22:02Z przl joined #scheme 2014-08-18T12:37:07Z wingo joined #scheme 2014-08-18T12:37:23Z fridim_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-08-18T12:50:18Z sroy joined #scheme 2014-08-18T12:55:09Z hjolt joined #scheme 2014-08-18T12:59:05Z dca quit (Quit: ZNC - http://znc.in) 2014-08-18T13:06:23Z davexunit joined #scheme 2014-08-18T13:21:19Z Blkt quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-08-18T13:21:26Z Blkt joined #scheme 2014-08-18T13:31:16Z autochthon joined #scheme 2014-08-18T13:31:27Z autochthon quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-08-18T13:37:40Z jlongster joined #scheme 2014-08-18T13:46:34Z ijp joined #scheme 2014-08-18T13:48:04Z autochthon joined #scheme 2014-08-18T13:48:07Z autochthon quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-08-18T13:55:38Z eivuokko[-] quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2014-08-18T13:58:57Z iterrogo joined #scheme 2014-08-18T14:02:16Z b4283 joined #scheme 2014-08-18T14:02:46Z joneshf-laptop quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-08-18T14:05:19Z autochthon joined #scheme 2014-08-18T14:05:42Z autochthon quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-08-18T14:09:20Z es joined #scheme 2014-08-18T14:09:25Z pera joined #scheme 2014-08-18T14:10:39Z girrig_ joined #scheme 2014-08-18T14:11:58Z oleo__ quit (*.net *.split) 2014-08-18T14:11:59Z es_ quit (*.net *.split) 2014-08-18T14:11:59Z turbofail quit (*.net *.split) 2014-08-18T14:11:59Z girrig quit (*.net *.split) 2014-08-18T14:14:01Z joneshf-laptop joined #scheme 2014-08-18T14:15:12Z w0rm_ quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-08-18T14:15:26Z oleo__ joined #scheme 2014-08-18T14:18:38Z gf3 joined #scheme 2014-08-18T14:22:28Z autochthon joined #scheme 2014-08-18T14:22:53Z BossKonaSegwaY quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-08-18T14:22:57Z autochthon quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-08-18T14:24:47Z eivuokko joined #scheme 2014-08-18T14:28:08Z yacks quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-08-18T14:30:42Z gnomon quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-08-18T14:31:32Z cross quit (Quit: leaving) 2014-08-18T14:32:30Z cross joined #scheme 2014-08-18T14:32:44Z gnomon joined #scheme 2014-08-18T14:36:43Z taylanub quit (Disconnected by services) 2014-08-18T14:37:15Z taylanub joined #scheme 2014-08-18T14:40:48Z tadni joined #scheme 2014-08-18T14:41:48Z w0rm_ joined #scheme 2014-08-18T14:42:06Z BossKonaSegwaY joined #scheme 2014-08-18T14:45:09Z leo2007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-08-18T14:45:44Z jim417 joined #scheme 2014-08-18T14:46:15Z Kruppe quit (Quit: ZNC - http://znc.in) 2014-08-18T14:46:54Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2014-08-18T14:46:57Z jim417: How can I stop eval in emacs? 2014-08-18T14:47:16Z taylanub: jim417: try C-g 2014-08-18T14:47:42Z araujo joined #scheme 2014-08-18T14:47:42Z araujo quit (Changing host) 2014-08-18T14:47:42Z araujo joined #scheme 2014-08-18T14:47:43Z taylanub: otherwise try sending it a SIGUSR2, IIRC 2014-08-18T14:47:46Z Kruppe joined #scheme 2014-08-18T14:48:37Z jim417: I am new to emacs & scheme. What's IIRC? 2014-08-18T14:49:02Z taylanub: If I Remember Correctly :) 2014-08-18T14:49:13Z taylanub: just checked the Info manual, it's SIGUSR2 indeed 2014-08-18T14:49:23Z jim417: I try a sentence in SICP:(define (p) (p)) 2014-08-18T14:49:53Z taylanub: Emacs evaluates Elisp not Scheme; hope you're aware 2014-08-18T14:50:38Z jim417: Thank you for your remind. 2014-08-18T14:51:04Z Riastradh: Are you using M-x run-scheme? If so, C-c C-c to interrupt the subprocess. 2014-08-18T14:51:42Z jim417: Riastradh: yes, i am using M-x run-scheme 2014-08-18T14:52:47Z jim417: Riastradh: I tried C-c C-c, and it works, thanks! 2014-08-18T14:52:53Z jim417 quit (Quit: Leaving) 2014-08-18T14:56:45Z wingo quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-08-18T15:11:25Z fridim_ joined #scheme 2014-08-18T15:12:21Z oleo__ quit (Quit: Verlassend) 2014-08-18T15:12:33Z przl joined #scheme 2014-08-18T15:14:02Z Nizumzen joined #scheme 2014-08-18T15:16:41Z gravicappa quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-08-18T15:19:10Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-08-18T15:19:33Z Riastradh quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-08-18T15:22:06Z jeapostrophe joined #scheme 2014-08-18T15:22:06Z jeapostrophe quit (Changing host) 2014-08-18T15:22:06Z jeapostrophe joined #scheme 2014-08-18T15:23:38Z przl joined #scheme 2014-08-18T15:28:01Z yacks joined #scheme 2014-08-18T15:36:36Z fridim_ quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2014-08-18T15:40:58Z fadein_ is now known as fadein 2014-08-18T15:43:55Z developernotes joined #scheme 2014-08-18T15:57:23Z oleo joined #scheme 2014-08-18T16:22:46Z bjz quit (Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com) 2014-08-18T16:22:55Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2014-08-18T16:25:51Z ventonegro quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-08-18T16:30:06Z Suigin quit (Quit: Leaving) 2014-08-18T16:43:33Z Riastradh joined #scheme 2014-08-18T16:44:32Z autochthon joined #scheme 2014-08-18T16:53:37Z bit` quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-08-18T16:56:44Z przl joined #scheme 2014-08-18T17:00:34Z Riastradh quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2014-08-18T17:08:37Z autochthon quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-08-18T17:08:51Z bit` joined #scheme 2014-08-18T17:09:23Z bjz joined #scheme 2014-08-18T17:21:40Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2014-08-18T17:30:25Z jeapostrophe quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2014-08-18T17:32:22Z kongtomorrow joined #scheme 2014-08-18T17:35:32Z b4283 quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2014-08-18T17:44:58Z theseb joined #scheme 2014-08-18T17:51:56Z GGMethos quit (Quit: WeeChat 0.4.3) 2014-08-18T17:52:10Z turbofail joined #scheme 2014-08-18T17:53:57Z eli` joined #scheme 2014-08-18T17:55:33Z eli is now known as Guest59173 2014-08-18T17:56:13Z eli` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-08-18T17:56:41Z orcus joined #scheme 2014-08-18T18:02:24Z gravicappa joined #scheme 2014-08-18T18:05:47Z Flaoer joined #scheme 2014-08-18T18:13:55Z chameco joined #scheme 2014-08-18T18:17:21Z Nizumzen quit (Quit: KVIrc 4.2.0 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/) 2014-08-18T18:22:56Z theseb quit (Quit: Leaving) 2014-08-18T18:24:46Z GGMethos joined #scheme 2014-08-18T18:26:03Z GGMethos quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-08-18T18:26:04Z altphi joined #scheme 2014-08-18T18:26:45Z GGMethos joined #scheme 2014-08-18T18:30:29Z hiroakip joined #scheme 2014-08-18T18:59:09Z eli joined #scheme 2014-08-18T19:08:17Z wingo joined #scheme 2014-08-18T19:15:16Z orcus quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2014-08-18T19:15:43Z hiroakip quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2014-08-18T19:19:35Z przl joined #scheme 2014-08-18T19:23:32Z BossKonaSegwaY quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-08-18T19:38:42Z kongtomorrow quit 2014-08-18T19:44:34Z kongtomorrow joined #scheme 2014-08-18T19:45:20Z kongtomorrow quit (Client Quit) 2014-08-18T19:45:25Z BossKonaSegwaY joined #scheme 2014-08-18T19:48:38Z tadni quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-08-18T19:50:31Z Riastradh joined #scheme 2014-08-18T19:51:01Z orcus joined #scheme 2014-08-18T19:51:25Z orcus is now known as Guest73143 2014-08-18T19:52:56Z gravicappa quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-08-18T19:54:07Z tadni joined #scheme 2014-08-18T19:55:32Z vanila joined #scheme 2014-08-18T19:55:41Z vanila: what is the point of display? you can't read what it writes out 2014-08-18T19:55:58Z vanila: it changes strings into symbols 2014-08-18T19:57:14Z elderK_ joined #scheme 2014-08-18T19:57:28Z cross_ joined #scheme 2014-08-18T19:57:36Z taylanub: vanila: to display something 2014-08-18T19:57:54Z wingo_ joined #scheme 2014-08-18T19:57:58Z taylanub: to write things out, there is 'write' 2014-08-18T19:58:10Z stepnem_ joined #scheme 2014-08-18T19:58:13Z taylanub: irony unintended in both cases :) 2014-08-18T19:58:15Z ijp: vanila: because humans prefer to e.g. get an actual newline instead of an escape sequence 2014-08-18T19:58:22Z Guest73143 quit (*.net *.split) 2014-08-18T19:58:22Z wingo quit (*.net *.split) 2014-08-18T19:58:23Z Kruppe quit (*.net *.split) 2014-08-18T19:58:23Z cross quit (*.net *.split) 2014-08-18T19:58:23Z gf3 quit (*.net *.split) 2014-08-18T19:58:23Z stepnem quit (*.net *.split) 2014-08-18T19:58:23Z elderK quit (*.net *.split) 2014-08-18T19:58:23Z leppie quit (*.net *.split) 2014-08-18T19:58:24Z FracV quit (*.net *.split) 2014-08-18T19:58:24Z stepnem_ is now known as stepnem 2014-08-18T19:58:36Z FracV joined #scheme 2014-08-18T19:59:37Z gf3 joined #scheme 2014-08-18T19:59:58Z taylanub: sometimes it irks me that I have to use "display" when I want to "print" something for the user to read though :P intuitively it makes me think it's for displaying specific *objects* to the user instead of printing text (like an error message) for them to read... 2014-08-18T20:00:31Z ijp quit (Quit: internet -> 4chan as time -> ∞) 2014-08-18T20:00:40Z dca joined #scheme 2014-08-18T20:00:53Z Kruppe joined #scheme 2014-08-18T20:02:56Z leppie joined #scheme 2014-08-18T20:03:09Z orcus_ joined #scheme 2014-08-18T20:06:18Z sroy quit (Quit: Leaving) 2014-08-18T20:07:32Z oldskirt_ joined #scheme 2014-08-18T20:08:18Z oldskirt quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2014-08-18T20:08:52Z Natch quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-08-18T20:09:11Z altphi quit 2014-08-18T20:10:16Z systemovich joined #scheme 2014-08-18T20:11:29Z ehaliewicz joined #scheme 2014-08-18T20:11:38Z plastic-house joined #scheme 2014-08-18T20:14:27Z chameco quit (Quit: leaving) 2014-08-18T20:18:02Z hiroakip joined #scheme 2014-08-18T20:18:12Z ehaliewicz quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2014-08-18T20:18:22Z DrDuck quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2014-08-18T20:24:44Z systemovich quit (Quit: systemovich) 2014-08-18T20:31:54Z Gyps joined #scheme 2014-08-18T20:32:22Z leppie quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-08-18T20:33:37Z plastic-house quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-08-18T20:35:21Z kongtomorrow joined #scheme 2014-08-18T20:35:37Z endthefed joined #scheme 2014-08-18T20:37:03Z leppie joined #scheme 2014-08-18T20:37:39Z developernotes quit (Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. 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#scheme 2014-08-19T14:36:37Z taylanub quit (Disconnected by services) 2014-08-19T14:37:12Z taylanub joined #scheme 2014-08-19T14:56:52Z dsp joined #scheme 2014-08-19T14:57:05Z Kruppe quit (Quit: ZNC - http://znc.in) 2014-08-19T14:57:31Z arrubin joined #scheme 2014-08-19T14:58:36Z Kruppe joined #scheme 2014-08-19T15:11:42Z gravicappa quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-08-19T15:21:51Z pjdelport joined #scheme 2014-08-19T15:34:22Z developernotes quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-08-19T15:37:59Z pnkfelix joined #scheme 2014-08-19T15:50:14Z langmartin quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-08-19T15:55:45Z Kruppe quit (*.net *.split) 2014-08-19T15:57:32Z Cheery: hi 2014-08-19T15:58:54Z Cheery: I wrote a 'bare' visual editor, trying to manage homoiconicity and genericity in the language. I wonder if you had anything to say to it. 2014-08-19T15:59:02Z Cheery: You can try it in: http://cheery.github.io/lisp-editor/ 2014-08-19T16:01:25Z langmartin joined #scheme 2014-08-19T16:03:19Z suppi joined #scheme 2014-08-19T16:03:54Z Kruppe joined #scheme 2014-08-19T16:07:57Z peterhil` quit (Quit: Must not waste too much time here...) 2014-08-19T16:13:29Z developernotes joined #scheme 2014-08-19T16:20:55Z bjz quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-08-19T16:21:10Z bjz joined #scheme 2014-08-19T16:32:16Z gravicappa joined #scheme 2014-08-19T16:34:08Z developernotes quit (Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com) 2014-08-19T16:34:22Z developernotes joined #scheme 2014-08-19T16:44:23Z Nizumzen quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-08-19T16:44:47Z kongtomorrow joined #scheme 2014-08-19T16:45:00Z ventonegro quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-08-19T16:45:30Z przl joined #scheme 2014-08-19T16:48:07Z jeapostrophe quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-08-19T16:50:16Z langmartin quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-08-19T16:55:41Z przl_ joined #scheme 2014-08-19T16:56:26Z bjz quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-08-19T16:56:45Z bjz joined #scheme 2014-08-19T16:58:28Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2014-08-19T16:58:35Z gravicappa quit (Ping timeout: 241 seconds) 2014-08-19T17:09:08Z oldskirt joined #scheme 2014-08-19T17:11:22Z bjz_ joined #scheme 2014-08-19T17:11:27Z bjz quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-08-19T17:12:11Z thousandwich joined #scheme 2014-08-19T17:12:32Z przl_ quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2014-08-19T17:17:09Z pnkfelix quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-08-19T17:20:55Z gravicappa joined #scheme 2014-08-19T17:22:11Z daviid joined #scheme 2014-08-19T17:36:19Z jeapostrophe joined #scheme 2014-08-19T17:36:19Z jeapostrophe quit (Changing host) 2014-08-19T17:36:19Z jeapostrophe joined #scheme 2014-08-19T17:38:32Z developernotes quit (Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2014-08-19T17:43:13Z daviid` joined #scheme 2014-08-19T17:45:02Z daviid quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2014-08-19T17:51:03Z hiroakip joined #scheme 2014-08-19T17:55:27Z dmiles_afk joined #scheme 2014-08-19T17:56:09Z kvda quit (Quit: z____z) 2014-08-19T18:02:49Z hiroakip quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2014-08-19T18:04:31Z jrhorn424 is now known as zz_jrhorn424 2014-08-19T18:04:43Z przl joined #scheme 2014-08-19T18:12:35Z eivuokko joined #scheme 2014-08-19T18:28:03Z b4283 quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2014-08-19T18:30:26Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2014-08-19T18:32:57Z developernotes joined #scheme 2014-08-19T18:33:52Z Gyps joined #scheme 2014-08-19T18:56:35Z przl joined #scheme 2014-08-19T19:00:12Z jcowan joined #scheme 2014-08-19T19:01:15Z jcowan: Does it make sense to have zip and unzip operations over vectors? They are well-defined, but I'm not sure how useful they are. 2014-08-19T19:03:51Z Gyps quit (Quit: Gyps) 2014-08-19T19:04:09Z tstc joined #scheme 2014-08-19T19:07:17Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-08-19T19:07:17Z dsp quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-08-19T19:21:20Z pjdelport: A zipWith analog is probably more useful for vectors. 2014-08-19T19:29:25Z jcowan: Basically vector-apply? 2014-08-19T19:29:42Z jcowan: or no, multiple argument vector-map. 2014-08-19T19:33:24Z przl joined #scheme 2014-08-19T19:39:33Z eivuokko quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-08-19T19:47:59Z BossKonaSegwaY quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2014-08-19T19:56:12Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2014-08-19T20:05:17Z LeoNerd quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-08-19T20:05:25Z pchrist quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-08-19T20:05:28Z LeoNerd joined #scheme 2014-08-19T20:06:07Z pchrist joined #scheme 2014-08-19T20:08:22Z omefire quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-08-19T20:09:33Z BossKonaSegwaY joined #scheme 2014-08-19T20:23:03Z omefire1 joined #scheme 2014-08-19T20:24:10Z oleo quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2014-08-19T20:28:09Z oleo joined #scheme 2014-08-19T20:43:00Z ijp quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-08-19T20:43:40Z ijp joined #scheme 2014-08-19T20:45:39Z developernotes quit (Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. 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ZZZzzz…) 2014-08-20T17:30:35Z gravicappa joined #scheme 2014-08-20T17:35:23Z yacks quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-08-20T17:38:08Z pnpuff quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-08-20T17:39:58Z zz_jrhorn424 is now known as jrhorn424 2014-08-20T17:40:19Z athan quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2014-08-20T17:46:34Z bit` quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2014-08-20T17:54:10Z DKordic joined #scheme 2014-08-20T18:02:04Z developernotes joined #scheme 2014-08-20T18:02:08Z bit` joined #scheme 2014-08-20T18:02:56Z pnpuff joined #scheme 2014-08-20T18:04:19Z sroy_ joined #scheme 2014-08-20T18:07:22Z thousandwich joined #scheme 2014-08-20T18:07:26Z Flaoer joined #scheme 2014-08-20T18:09:47Z theseb quit (Quit: Leaving) 2014-08-20T18:18:54Z hiroakip joined #scheme 2014-08-20T18:23:17Z Nizumzen quit (Quit: KVIrc 4.2.0 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/) 2014-08-20T18:35:27Z yacks joined #scheme 2014-08-20T18:41:12Z _eugen quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2014-08-20T18:48:21Z pnkfelix quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-08-20T18:49:32Z pnpuff quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-08-20T18:54:23Z davric joined #scheme 2014-08-20T18:54:38Z davric: anybody here read SICP? 2014-08-20T18:54:48Z taylanub: probably. I read half of it 2014-08-20T18:55:20Z davric: is there anything i should know before reading that or could I just hop into it? 2014-08-20T18:55:39Z taylanub: davric: some parts presume knowledge of calculus 2014-08-20T18:56:06Z yacks quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2014-08-20T18:56:07Z davric: taylanub: good to know, my math is weak 2014-08-20T18:56:13Z davric: :( 2014-08-20T18:56:17Z taylanub: those parts are very limited 2014-08-20T18:56:27Z daviid joined #scheme 2014-08-20T18:56:28Z taylanub: so it shouldn't be much of a problem 2014-08-20T18:57:39Z yacks joined #scheme 2014-08-20T18:58:10Z developernotes quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2014-08-20T18:59:20Z davric: okay! 2014-08-20T18:59:28Z davric: taylanub: why haven't you finished it? 2014-08-20T19:01:42Z taylanub: davric: got kind of bored, though it was getting more difficult. I have a tendency of losing interest in any long-term activity 2014-08-20T19:02:15Z taylanub: might finish it one day for the hell of it. not sure how much I'd learn from it at this point, probably still a couple things 2014-08-20T19:02:36Z davric: i'm the same way 2014-08-20T19:02:37Z ijp: .oO("I have a tendency of losing interest in any long-term activity" would make for a terrible suicide note) 2014-08-20T19:02:50Z davric: ijp: or a very clever one 2014-08-20T19:03:20Z yacks quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-08-20T19:05:50Z developernotes joined #scheme 2014-08-20T19:06:40Z pnpuff joined #scheme 2014-08-20T19:09:46Z yacks joined #scheme 2014-08-20T19:12:18Z taylanub: joke's on you, I'm indeed suici-- forget about it 2014-08-20T19:14:38Z developernotes quit (Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com) 2014-08-20T19:15:47Z developernotes joined #scheme 2014-08-20T19:16:20Z Flaoer quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2014-08-20T19:17:07Z developernotes quit (Client Quit) 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I am trying to solve this puzzle: http://programmingpraxis.com/2014/08/19/cracker-barrel but my program is running out of memory 2014-08-21T16:43:51Z ivanshmakov joined #scheme 2014-08-21T16:53:22Z wilfredh quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2014-08-21T16:57:14Z kuribas joined #scheme 2014-08-21T17:01:40Z gravicappa quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2014-08-21T17:06:49Z Atro joined #scheme 2014-08-21T17:07:06Z Flaoer quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-08-21T17:09:39Z Nizumzen quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2014-08-21T17:13:37Z pnkfelix joined #scheme 2014-08-21T17:15:09Z gravicappa joined #scheme 2014-08-21T17:15:47Z developernotes quit (Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. 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http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/2e5sre/why_racket_why_lisp/cjwg4ex 2014-08-21T21:13:12Z rudybot: http://tinyurl.com/kd7lwlo 2014-08-21T21:13:31Z pnkfelix joined #scheme 2014-08-21T21:13:45Z taylanub: jollygood: /r/programming is not a very good place 2014-08-21T21:15:48Z gravicappa quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-08-21T21:16:08Z taylanub: jollygood: all I read from that post is that other systems take away choice and responsibility from the user, and increase convenience for people with a low attention span or lack of motivation to put some more effort into their work for something that will pay off in the long run... that's my cheap insta-interpretation 2014-08-21T21:19:45Z ijp joined #scheme 2014-08-21T21:20:26Z zwer_l is now known as zwer 2014-08-21T21:20:37Z hiroakip quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-08-21T21:21:22Z hiroakip joined #scheme 2014-08-21T21:22:10Z jollygood: how much of his criticism about common lisp applies to scheme and/or racket? the article he is replying to concentrated on racket 2014-08-21T21:23:52Z masm quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-08-21T21:24:14Z taylanub: let's see .. "legacy issues" is super vague and the whole field of CS is littered with legacy issues, so the thing is probably just that that person is unfamiliar with the particular set of legacy issues of Lisp. that being said Scheme has shaken itself off of some Lisp weirdities like the overuse of symbols for representing the environment... 2014-08-21T21:24:39Z taylanub: not sure what "herding cats community" is supposed to mean. 2014-08-21T21:25:15Z taylanub: too many implementations, heh, Scheme has even more, yes. standardization is the weakest point of Scheme (though it has its benefits too) 2014-08-21T21:25:53Z taylanub: there is no standard Scheme package system (unless you count SLIB I guess). hygienic macros are awesome though. 2014-08-21T21:25:59Z nisstyre: the macro issue pretty much doesn't apply to scheme because you can use scheme macros safely anywhere (assuming they were written correctly) 2014-08-21T21:26:10Z nisstyre: and people generally don't write weird macros 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joined #scheme 2014-08-22T22:57:35Z masm quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2014-08-22T22:59:55Z zacts quit (Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)) 2014-08-22T22:59:55Z karswell` joined #scheme 2014-08-22T23:03:06Z Sgeo joined #scheme 2014-08-22T23:03:15Z karswell quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2014-08-22T23:08:25Z suppi quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-08-22T23:12:08Z mrowe is now known as mrowe_away 2014-08-22T23:18:15Z kongtomorrow joined #scheme 2014-08-22T23:21:58Z sean_1 joined #scheme 2014-08-22T23:22:21Z sean_1: Hello everyone, I am a beginner to this cool language and have been following this: http://www.scheme.com/tspl4/start.html#./start:h2 2014-08-22T23:22:57Z sean_1: However, it seems as though my Scheme interpreter hates brackets []. For whatever reason, it complains whenever I use them. 2014-08-22T23:23:08Z zacts joined #scheme 2014-08-22T23:23:24Z sean_1: For example, on that page there is a line that goes like this: 2014-08-22T23:23:30Z sean_1: (let ([list1 '(a b c)] [list2 '(d e f)]) 2014-08-22T23:23:50Z sean_1: I copy and paste that into my terminal, hit enter, and tonnes of errors are spat out at me 2014-08-22T23:23:55Z sean_1: Why is this? 2014-08-22T23:24:04Z sean_1: I use MIT/GNU scheme. Could this be why? 2014-08-22T23:25:20Z sean_1: It says stuff like ;Illegal character: #\[ 2014-08-22T23:28:47Z sean_1: Oh I see. Some implementations allow people to use them, however they are reserved characters and so.. aren't portable, basically. 2014-08-22T23:29:02Z sean_1: Looks like I will definitely be using my () to their full potential then, hahaha 2014-08-22T23:35:29Z pyro-: I find the mix of () and [] quite hard to read. Many people seem to prefer it though 2014-08-22T23:36:10Z pyro-: I think that racket is the big one that lets you do [] 2014-08-22T23:39:27Z oleo quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-08-22T23:41:24Z oleo joined #scheme 2014-08-22T23:41:36Z sean_1: pyro-: Ah I see. Eh, I'll tough it out. I don't see much difference as long as some spacing is used. 2014-08-22T23:42:55Z pyro-: people tend to use the indent to read. no one wants to count brackets 2014-08-22T23:46:02Z dsp quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2014-08-23T00:02:03Z Flaoer quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-08-23T00:05:22Z _5kg quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-08-23T00:07:14Z kongtomorrow quit 2014-08-23T00:11:34Z jlongster joined #scheme 2014-08-23T00:19:37Z arrubin joined #scheme 2014-08-23T00:24:50Z joneshf-laptop quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-08-23T00:25:17Z joneshf-laptop joined #scheme 2014-08-23T00:25:51Z Gyps quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-08-23T00:26:23Z arbscht joined #scheme 2014-08-23T00:27:04Z ANGRYSTEVE quit (Quit: Sunya in my bunya) 2014-08-23T00:27:57Z zacts: pyro-: I think [] is often used with (cond ...) 2014-08-23T00:33:10Z kongtomorrow joined #scheme 2014-08-23T00:38:43Z sean_1: zacts: This book tells me it is often used with let, so you can do (let ([bob '(a b)] [joe '(d f)]) as opposed to (let ((bob '(a b)) (joe '(d f))) 2014-08-23T00:39:13Z sean_1: I will admit it is sometimes hard to think of which parenthesis matches up with which 2014-08-23T00:39:29Z sean_1: But I will never give up! 2014-08-23T00:39:47Z arrubin: http://www.cipht.net/2014/08/19/ilc2014.html#sec-3-2 2014-08-23T00:40:31Z kongtomorrow quit 2014-08-23T00:40:40Z groovy2shoes joined #scheme 2014-08-23T00:45:12Z fizzie quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2014-08-23T00:45:59Z sean_1: arrubin: cool, but I don't need any motivation :P 2014-08-23T00:47:02Z kongtomorrow joined #scheme 2014-08-23T00:47:13Z Flaoer joined #scheme 2014-08-23T00:48:54Z b4283 joined #scheme 2014-08-23T00:52:21Z kongtomorrow quit 2014-08-23T00:55:16Z fizzie joined #scheme 2014-08-23T00:55:21Z DrPhil- joined #scheme 2014-08-23T00:55:37Z DrPhil-: In r6, is there a parameter like (current-exception-handler) or something like that? 2014-08-23T00:57:08Z ijp: DrPhil-: no, you can't get it 2014-08-23T00:57:16Z DrPhil-: ijp, hmm 2014-08-23T00:57:46Z DrPhil-: Well, my problem is this, I want to write something that installs an exception handler only for a specific condition type. 2014-08-23T00:57:47Z ijp: the design was borrowed from srfi 34, you might find a reason in its discussion 2014-08-23T00:58:03Z Nizumzen quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-08-23T00:58:04Z ijp: DrPhil-: so you do a guard, and test for that type 2014-08-23T00:58:18Z DrPhil-: Something like (with-exception-type-handler violation? handler thunk) 2014-08-23T00:58:47Z DrPhil-: Yeah, but the continuation of a guard is wrong. 2014-08-23T00:59:02Z DrPhil-: Like, the continuation is not the call to the exceptional call itself. 2014-08-23T00:59:17Z ijp: it is if the exception is continuable 2014-08-23T00:59:32Z ijp: or maybe I'm mixing the two 2014-08-23T01:00:09Z DrPhil-: Well, not all are. 2014-08-23T01:00:13Z DrPhil-: Like, ehh 2014-08-23T01:00:36Z ijp: DrPhil-: anyway, you can test and reraise in the handler like normal 2014-08-23T01:00:38Z DrPhil-: Say you have ref right, it raises an exception when the index is out of bounds. 2014-08-23T01:01:20Z DrPhil-: Say I want to install a handler (lambda (x) #f) only for the exception type that ref raises in a certain dynamic environment 2014-08-23T01:01:27Z DrPhil-: Because I know that all my lists happen to not contain #f 2014-08-23T01:02:12Z DrPhil-: So I can just assume that a return value of #f from ref means it's out of bounds. 2014-08-23T01:02:21Z pnkfelix quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-08-23T01:02:28Z fizzie quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2014-08-23T01:02:52Z ijp: I don't get why you need to know the current handler to implement this 2014-08-23T01:03:20Z DrPhil-: Because it needs to invoke the normal handler in the event that it is not that condition type that ref raises. 2014-08-23T01:03:28Z ijp: so test, and reraise 2014-08-23T01:03:58Z DrPhil-: Oh wait 2014-08-23T01:04:15Z DrPhil-: if you do (raise con) in the current handler, it raises it with the old handler? 2014-08-23T01:04:24Z ijp: yes 2014-08-23T01:05:15Z DrPhil-: Ah yes, that solves my issue completely then 2014-08-23T01:09:08Z fizzie joined #scheme 2014-08-23T01:15:04Z fizzie quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2014-08-23T01:24:57Z fizzie joined #scheme 2014-08-23T01:34:22Z Gyps joined #scheme 2014-08-23T01:49:17Z jusss joined #scheme 2014-08-23T01:52:42Z tcsc joined #scheme 2014-08-23T01:53:24Z tadni joined #scheme 2014-08-23T01:53:29Z tadni quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-08-23T02:02:12Z fizzie quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2014-08-23T02:05:55Z genericus joined #scheme 2014-08-23T02:07:15Z jusss quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-08-23T02:10:13Z sean_1 quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2014-08-23T02:11:28Z DrPhil- left #scheme 2014-08-23T02:40:31Z dsp joined #scheme 2014-08-23T02:41:16Z leo2007 joined #scheme 2014-08-23T02:41:57Z genericus left #scheme 2014-08-23T02:51:41Z taraz``` joined #scheme 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https://raw.githubusercontent.com/miniKanren/miniKanren/master/mk.scm 2014-08-23T14:22:07Z vanila: Error: unbound variable: remp 2014-08-23T14:22:11Z vanila: it says this when i try to use it 2014-08-23T14:27:22Z ANGRYSTEVE quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-08-23T14:27:42Z zz_jrhorn424 is now known as jrhorn424 2014-08-23T14:28:39Z tali713 joined #scheme 2014-08-23T14:28:53Z cdidd quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-08-23T14:30:22Z jrhorn424 is now known as zz_jrhorn424 2014-08-23T14:34:02Z elderK joined #scheme 2014-08-23T14:35:25Z tali713 quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2014-08-23T14:36:39Z tali713 joined #scheme 2014-08-23T14:36:54Z taylanub quit (Disconnected by services) 2014-08-23T14:37:20Z taylanub joined #scheme 2014-08-23T14:43:11Z pnpuff: vanila: it depends maybe from the Scheme implementation you're using 2014-08-23T14:43:43Z pera joined #scheme 2014-08-23T14:44:01Z ddp joined #scheme 2014-08-23T14:44:03Z cdidd joined #scheme 2014-08-23T14:44:46Z pnpuff: vanila: you've to define your own remp procedure 2014-08-23T14:45:18Z vanila: why :( 2014-08-23T14:45:24Z vanila: thank you 2014-08-23T14:45:26Z vanila: i dont know what that is though 2014-08-23T14:45:56Z fridim_ quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2014-08-23T14:46:03Z tali713 quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2014-08-23T14:47:14Z pnpuff: vanila: try to go on the Github page of miniKanren and look under "Issues" 2014-08-23T14:47:20Z vanila: thanky ou 2014-08-23T14:48:25Z fridim_ joined #scheme 2014-08-23T14:48:50Z vanila: it breaks in a different way if I add that remp, thank you for point it out though 2014-08-23T14:49:38Z BossKonaSegwaY quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2014-08-23T14:50:09Z tali713 joined #scheme 2014-08-23T14:53:41Z fridim_ quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2014-08-23T14:54:04Z Bahman quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2014-08-23T14:55:47Z Bahman joined #scheme 2014-08-23T14:59:13Z jlongster joined #scheme 2014-08-23T14:59:32Z elderK quit (Remote host closed the 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connection) 2014-08-23T18:01:15Z Bahman quit (Quit: Ave atque vale) 2014-08-23T18:15:09Z pnpuff quit 2014-08-23T18:36:37Z vanila: howw do I sort a list by a predicate in chicken scheme 2014-08-23T18:36:53Z vanila: [procedure] (sort SEQUENCE LESS?) I found this in the docs 2014-08-23T18:37:04Z vanila: but I get this Error: (append) bad argument type - not a proper list: # 2014-08-23T18:39:06Z vanila: its ok i fixed it 2014-08-23T18:39:09Z vanila: i had my argsb ackwards 2014-08-23T18:42:47Z Flaoer quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-08-23T18:54:03Z jlongster quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-08-23T18:58:08Z zarul quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2014-08-23T18:59:07Z pnpuff joined #scheme 2014-08-23T19:10:06Z pjb: less? predicate should take their arguments in any order, otherwise something is very wrong! 2014-08-23T19:11:26Z vanila: thank you 2014-08-23T19:11:34Z vanila: its crazy how much of a mess scheme is 2014-08-23T19:11:55Z vanila: they go to the trouble of writing up all these reports and SRFIs but you still cant run the same code in different implementations 2014-08-23T19:12:53Z pjb: vanila: that's your fault. It's up to you to use only what's specified in the reports. 2014-08-23T19:13:09Z yacks quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2014-08-23T19:13:16Z ijp: vanila: they like the idea of standards, just not the execution 2014-08-23T19:13:19Z taylanub: the parts that are in the reports are less messy than other languages' parts which are in their reports, which is kind of the point of Scheme. shaking off that perfectionism without causing damage is difficult 2014-08-23T19:14:09Z pjb: I hear r7rs will have a module system. 2014-08-23T19:14:27Z pjb: That should help in isolating implementation or platform dependant code. 2014-08-23T19:14:30Z taylanub: R6RS has attempted it, with only partial success. R7RS-large might be better, paying more respect to SRFIs... 2014-08-23T19:14:38Z taylanub: pjb: R7RS-small has libraries 2014-08-23T19:14:47Z ijp: pjb: didn't work for slib 2014-08-23T19:14:56Z taylanub: and the document is finished, and implementations have started implementing it 2014-08-23T19:15:10Z yacks joined #scheme 2014-08-23T19:16:18Z vanila: it's not my fault 2014-08-23T19:16:36Z taylanub: SRFI-9, bytevectors, and a couple other goodies are in it too. and I have an actually useful library written in it, which however I couldn't test yet because I'm waiting for Guile's R7RS support 2014-08-23T19:16:55Z vanila: i can't really understand why you'd even say that 2014-08-23T19:17:00Z taylanub: .oO( "I have an actually useful library written in it" ... Scheme's faint-praise? ) 2014-08-23T19:17:13Z pjb: vanila: not using the functions provided by the implementation requires personnal discipline: it is your fault! 2014-08-23T19:17:40Z vanila: then according to you its who ever wrote this file im trying to run's fault 2014-08-23T19:17:43Z ijp: vanila: and now you see why lisp has such a bad rep 2014-08-23T19:17:51Z vanila: but I didn't write it 2014-08-23T19:18:16Z pjb: If you're maintaining it, you are responsible of it. Just remove all implementation dependant functions from it! 2014-08-23T19:18:30Z vanila: too much coffee today lol 2014-08-23T19:18:43Z ijp quit (Quit: ) 2014-08-23T19:21:57Z jlongster joined #scheme 2014-08-23T19:22:35Z _tca joined #scheme 2014-08-23T19:26:44Z jlongster quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2014-08-23T19:39:34Z leppie quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2014-08-23T19:43:26Z oldskirt quit (Quit: gone) 2014-08-23T19:43:54Z leppie joined #scheme 2014-08-23T19:52:49Z phax joined #scheme 2014-08-23T20:01:21Z jlongster joined #scheme 2014-08-23T20:04:33Z daviid quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-08-23T20:17:03Z zacts joined #scheme 2014-08-23T20:20:21Z BossKonaSegwaY quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2014-08-23T20:20:54Z pnpuff quit 2014-08-23T20:26:11Z gravicappa quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-08-23T20:35:37Z tadni`` is now known as tadni 2014-08-23T20:41:34Z BossKonaSegwaY joined #scheme 2014-08-23T20:43:36Z phipes joined #scheme 2014-08-23T20:56:58Z fantazo quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2014-08-23T21:01:12Z suppi quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-08-23T21:15:15Z BossKonaSegwaY quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2014-08-23T21:16:25Z tadni quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2014-08-23T21:17:47Z mrowe_away is now known as mrowe 2014-08-23T21:20:30Z jlongster quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2014-08-23T21:21:36Z ddp joined #scheme 2014-08-23T21:21:56Z ddp quit (Client Quit) 2014-08-23T21:22:08Z ddp joined #scheme 2014-08-23T21:22:13Z ddp left #scheme 2014-08-23T21:27:37Z ARM9 joined #scheme 2014-08-23T21:31:19Z Gyps joined #scheme 2014-08-23T21:33:42Z Nizumzen joined #scheme 2014-08-23T21:34:22Z BossKonaSegwaY joined #scheme 2014-08-23T21:39:27Z vukcrni joined #scheme 2014-08-23T21:39:42Z jlongster joined #scheme 2014-08-23T21:40:56Z aretecode quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2014-08-23T21:43:53Z aretecode joined #scheme 2014-08-23T21:44:06Z aretecode quit (Client Quit) 2014-08-23T21:51:48Z fantazo joined #scheme 2014-08-23T21:57:33Z Gyps quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-08-23T22:03:26Z BossKonaSegwaY quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2014-08-23T22:07:04Z jlongster quit (Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)) 2014-08-23T22:10:30Z jessup joined #scheme 2014-08-23T22:12:32Z phipes quit (Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com) 2014-08-23T22:12:42Z jessup quit (Client Quit) 2014-08-23T22:13:24Z mrowe is now known as mrowe_away 2014-08-23T22:17:19Z jessup joined #scheme 2014-08-23T22:17:42Z BossKonaSegwaY joined #scheme 2014-08-23T22:20:07Z dmiles_afk quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-08-23T22:20:15Z dmiles joined #scheme 2014-08-23T22:21:06Z vanila quit (Quit: Leaving) 2014-08-23T22:29:18Z suigin joined #scheme 2014-08-23T22:29:58Z tadni joined #scheme 2014-08-23T22:38:37Z jessup quit (Quit: ZNC - http://znc.in) 2014-08-23T22:41:58Z Nizumzen quit (Quit: KVIrc 4.2.0 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/) 2014-08-23T22:43:41Z ivan\ quit (Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)) 2014-08-23T22:50:06Z jessup joined #scheme 2014-08-23T22:52:07Z jessup quit (Client Quit) 2014-08-23T22:55:59Z mrowe_away is now known as mrowe 2014-08-23T23:11:33Z zarul joined #scheme 2014-08-23T23:11:33Z zarul quit (Changing host) 2014-08-23T23:11:33Z zarul joined #scheme 2014-08-23T23:20:35Z samth: vanila: pjb is a common lisper and likes to troll about scheme 2014-08-23T23:25:33Z tadni quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-08-23T23:25:55Z pjb: samth: what I expressed previously applies to all languages! 2014-08-23T23:27:15Z samth: Telling people that the lack of portability of scheme code is their fault is just trollish 2014-08-23T23:28:36Z mrowe is now known as mrowe_away 2014-08-23T23:30:24Z ivan\ joined #scheme 2014-08-23T23:31:02Z pjb: samth: scheme code written against the standard is perfectly portable. 2014-08-23T23:31:50Z samth: pjb: that's both irrelevant and less true than you'd think 2014-08-23T23:32:26Z pjb: Are you dumb? 2014-08-23T23:32:39Z pjb: If you want to write portable code, you write r5rs code and it'll be portable. 2014-08-23T23:32:55Z pjb: If you encouter any problem, then it's a bug in the r5rs implementation. 2014-08-23T23:33:05Z pjb: Therefore it is not irrelevant at all! 2014-08-23T23:35:14Z jessup joined #scheme 2014-08-23T23:41:19Z samth: pjb: this syllogism assumes both wide availability of compliant implementations and that R5 will express the programs people want to write 2014-08-23T23:47:09Z jessup quit (Quit: ZNC - http://znc.in) 2014-08-23T23:50:54Z tadni joined #scheme 2014-08-24T00:12:17Z BossKonaSegwaY quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-08-24T00:24:44Z stepnem quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2014-08-24T00:29:10Z BossKonaSegwaY joined #scheme 2014-08-24T00:33:09Z robot-beethoven joined #scheme 2014-08-24T00:41:53Z pjb: samth: it is easy to carefully delineate the non standard part, and to provide different implementations for the different scheme implementations. This is what SRFIs are all about. 2014-08-24T00:42:23Z MichaelRaskin quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-08-24T00:43:37Z samth: pjb: have you tried to write or maintain a large portable scheme app? 2014-08-24T00:44:12Z pjb: No, but I do that in C, C++, Java or Common Lisp. I've been doing it for 30 years. I know what I'm talking about. 2014-08-24T00:44:49Z pjb: This is about the only problem you have in maintaining large programs, portable or not: the lack of modularity vs. system dependance. 2014-08-24T00:45:31Z ANGRYSTEVE quit (Quit: Sunya in my bunya) 2014-08-24T00:45:40Z ARM9 quit (Quit: swi 0x06) 2014-08-24T00:45:45Z samth: pjb: the situation is rather different on scheme due to the size of R5 and the implementation diversity 2014-08-24T00:45:56Z pjb: You have the SRFIs. 2014-08-24T00:46:05Z pjb: And C is smaller than r5rs. 2014-08-24T00:47:42Z tadni quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-08-24T00:48:16Z tadni joined #scheme 2014-08-24T00:55:30Z jessup joined #scheme 2014-08-24T01:07:01Z oleo is now known as Guest96674 2014-08-24T01:08:33Z oleo__ joined #scheme 2014-08-24T01:09:53Z omefire2 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-08-24T01:09:53Z omefire3 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-08-24T01:10:46Z Guest96674 quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2014-08-24T01:11:33Z BossKonaSegwaY quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-08-24T01:12:18Z daviid joined #scheme 2014-08-24T01:22:31Z mrowe_away is now known as mrowe 2014-08-24T01:30:48Z omefire1 joined #scheme 2014-08-24T01:31:01Z BossKonaSegwaY joined #scheme 2014-08-24T01:45:01Z mrowe is now known as mrowe_away 2014-08-24T01:49:20Z tadni quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2014-08-24T01:49:58Z bit` quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2014-08-24T02:05:04Z bit` joined #scheme 2014-08-24T02:15:34Z tadni joined #scheme 2014-08-24T02:19:12Z phax left #scheme 2014-08-24T02:23:36Z BossKonaSegwaY quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2014-08-24T02:44:31Z BossKonaSegwaY joined #scheme 2014-08-24T02:46:46Z zacts quit (Quit: leaving) 2014-08-24T02:50:45Z taraz```` joined #scheme 2014-08-24T02:54:34Z taraz``` quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-08-24T03:00:40Z BossKonaSegwaY quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2014-08-24T03:13:30Z kongtomorrow joined #scheme 2014-08-24T03:18:31Z tcsc quit (Quit: bye!) 2014-08-24T03:19:08Z kongtomorrow quit 2014-08-24T03:20:58Z BossKonaSegwaY joined #scheme 2014-08-24T03:21:15Z zacts joined #scheme 2014-08-24T03:21:35Z kongtomorrow joined #scheme 2014-08-24T03:26:02Z phipes joined #scheme 2014-08-24T03:32:56Z defanor quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2014-08-24T03:37:00Z kongtomorrow quit 2014-08-24T03:49:33Z kongtomorrow joined #scheme 2014-08-24T03:54:31Z kongtomorrow quit 2014-08-24T04:01:36Z tadni quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2014-08-24T04:08:03Z phipes quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. 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I'm pleased to read it 2014-08-24T08:22:43Z fizzie: The C99 draft is 552 pages; the C89 draft is harder to quantify since I've only seen it around in plaintext/HTML conversions, but printing the plaintext at a reasonable font size yielded about 250 pages. By extrapolation, the next C standard will be around a thousand pages. 2014-08-24T08:23:11Z fizzie: Or maybe 900. 2014-08-24T08:34:18Z mrowe is now known as mrowe_away 2014-08-24T08:53:33Z jessup quit (K-Lined) 2014-08-24T08:56:11Z kazimir42 joined #scheme 2014-08-24T08:57:44Z GGMethos quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-08-24T09:01:01Z stepnem quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2014-08-24T09:01:16Z stepnem joined #scheme 2014-08-24T09:06:42Z GGMethos joined #scheme 2014-08-24T09:07:02Z phipes joined #scheme 2014-08-24T09:07:13Z phipes quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2014-08-24T09:22:54Z ivan\ joined #scheme 2014-08-24T09:42:53Z mrowe_away is now known as mrowe 2014-08-24T09:42:56Z leo2007 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2014-08-24T09:44:21Z bit` quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-08-24T09:46:12Z robot-beethoven quit (Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)) 2014-08-24T09:54:34Z gravicappa quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2014-08-24T09:59:52Z oleo__ is now known as oleo 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Quit) 2014-08-25T19:30:12Z hjolt: What difference is there semanticly between definining a procedure inside of another procedure vs using let to define the nested procedure? 2014-08-25T19:34:09Z ijp: let's are not recursive 2014-08-25T19:36:18Z ijp: rudybot: (define (factorial n) (define (factorial x y) (if (zero? x) y (factorial (- x 1) (* x y)))) (factorial n 1)) 2014-08-25T19:36:19Z rudybot: ijp: your sandbox is ready 2014-08-25T19:36:19Z rudybot: ijp: Done. 2014-08-25T19:36:23Z ijp: rudybot: (factorial 10) 2014-08-25T19:36:23Z rudybot: ijp: ; Value: 3628800 2014-08-25T19:36:33Z ijp: as you can see ^^ defines an iterative factorial function 2014-08-25T19:37:06Z ijp: rudybot: (define (factorial n) (let ((factorial (lambda (x y) (if (zero? x) y (factorial (- x 1) (* x y)))))) (factorial n 1))) 2014-08-25T19:37:06Z rudybot: ijp: Done. 2014-08-25T19:37:17Z ijp: that will error with the wrong number of arguments in the recursive call 2014-08-25T19:37:22Z ijp: rudybot: (factorial 1) 2014-08-25T19:37:22Z rudybot: ijp: error: factorial: arity mismatch; the expected number of arguments does not match the given number expected: 1 given: 2 arguments...: 0 1 2014-08-25T19:37:27Z ijp: rudybot: (factorial 0) 2014-08-25T19:37:27Z rudybot: ijp: ; Value: 1 2014-08-25T19:37:42Z Kackao joined #scheme 2014-08-25T19:37:43Z Kackao_ joined #scheme 2014-08-25T19:38:00Z Kackao_ quit (Client Quit) 2014-08-25T19:38:00Z Kackao quit (Client Quit) 2014-08-25T19:38:08Z duncanm: la la la 2014-08-25T19:38:10Z ijp: hjolt: in r5rs, inner defines are equivalent to letrec, in r6rs and r7rs, it is equivalent to letrec*, which specifies left to right evaluation 2014-08-25T19:38:14Z ijp: duncanm: botsnack 2014-08-25T19:39:38Z duncanm: which scheme is powering rudybot nowadays? 2014-08-25T19:39:48Z ijp: racket 2014-08-25T19:40:08Z ijp: rudybot: botsnack 2014-08-25T19:40:10Z rudybot: my favourite snack! 2014-08-25T19:40:48Z Kackao joined #scheme 2014-08-25T19:40:58Z Kackao_ joined #scheme 2014-08-25T19:43:15Z amgarching joined #scheme 2014-08-25T19:43:45Z Kackao_ quit (Client Quit) 2014-08-25T19:44:35Z hjolt: ijp: So is there any advantage to using let instead? Or is it just a style thing? 2014-08-25T19:45:44Z amgarchIn9 quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2014-08-25T19:47:36Z ijp: sometimes let is the behaviour you want 2014-08-25T19:47:49Z Kackao quit (Quit: Verlassend) 2014-08-25T19:48:04Z ijp: but in general, define vs. let-foo is a question of personal preference 2014-08-25T19:50:50Z jeapostrophe joined #scheme 2014-08-25T19:51:57Z hjolt: ijp: What I am really asking I guess is an example of a situation where it would matter which one I chose. 2014-08-25T19:52:43Z ijp: I gave you one 2014-08-25T19:52:49Z ijp: recursion vs not 2014-08-25T19:55:16Z hjolt: ijp: oops, window had scrolled past that comment; thanks 2014-08-25T19:55:23Z ijp: as for the related question of inner defines vs letrec, you can use letrec in arbitrary expressions, but inner defines are more restricted in where they can appear 2014-08-25T19:55:27Z sroy_ joined #scheme 2014-08-25T19:55:42Z jeapostrophe quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-08-25T19:56:24Z ijp: e.g. you can do (list (letrec ((factorial (lambda (x y) (if (zero? x) y (factorial (- x 1) (* x y)))))) factorial)) 2014-08-25T19:57:55Z pnpuff quit 2014-08-25T19:59:56Z cdidd quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2014-08-25T20:00:28Z pnpuff joined #scheme 2014-08-25T20:03:55Z kongtomorrow joined #scheme 2014-08-25T20:04:55Z hjolt: I notice with this syntax I dont actually have to internally call my helper function: (define (factorial n) (let loop ((n n) (acc 1)) (if (< n 2) acc (loop (- n 1) (* acc n))))) 2014-08-25T20:05:42Z kongtomorrow quit (Client Quit) 2014-08-25T20:05:47Z hjolt: rudybot: (define (factorial n) (let loop ((n n) (acc 1)) (if (< n 2) acc (loop (- n 1) (* acc n))))) 2014-08-25T20:05:47Z rudybot: hjolt: your sandbox is ready 2014-08-25T20:05:47Z rudybot: hjolt: Done. 2014-08-25T20:05:54Z hjolt: (factorial 5) 2014-08-25T20:06:00Z hjolt: rudybot: (factorial 5) 2014-08-25T20:06:00Z rudybot: hjolt: ; Value: 120 2014-08-25T20:06:56Z ijp: yes, named let is often used for simple loops 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I'm trying to run Brian's Harvey http://paste.lisp.org/new/scheme 2014-08-26T06:53:02Z Flaoer joined #scheme 2014-08-26T06:53:13Z jankoprowski: (sorry missclick) Brian's Harvey examples under mit-scheme: http://bit.ly/VLnkmX 2014-08-26T06:54:06Z jankoprowski: However I've already stacked on defining a 'def'. I'm guessing the correct syntax is 'extend-syntax' version but there are some difference in mit-scheme. 2014-08-26T06:54:26Z jankoprowski: I need help running it under mit-scheme. Will be grateful. 2014-08-26T06:57:04Z phipes joined #scheme 2014-08-26T07:04:02Z ANGRYSTEVE quit (Quit: Sunya in my bunya) 2014-08-26T07:08:18Z Flaoer quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2014-08-26T07:10:08Z effy_ is now known as effy 2014-08-26T07:27:22Z phipes quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. 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annodomini quit (Changing host) 2014-08-27T18:52:04Z annodomini joined #scheme 2014-08-27T19:02:59Z ee_cc quit (Quit: ee_cc) 2014-08-27T19:15:38Z ee_cc_ joined #scheme 2014-08-27T19:26:38Z jj2baile quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-08-27T19:28:14Z Vutral joined #scheme 2014-08-27T19:28:19Z Vutral quit (Excess Flood) 2014-08-27T19:30:24Z ilammy: Does anybody know any good applications of this: http://okmij.org/ftp/Scheme/macros.html#ck-macros ? 2014-08-27T19:31:33Z ilammy: Personally I find the CK-machine quite useful for writing syntax-rules macros that are more complex than 'and' or 'unless'. 2014-08-27T19:31:44Z stamourv: ilammy: Apart from masochism, not really. 2014-08-27T19:31:57Z ilammy: I tried googling it, but apparently noone uses it. 2014-08-27T19:32:07Z stamourv: ilammy: For writing complex macros, you definitely want procedural macros, and something like syntax/parse to help you. 2014-08-27T19:32:32Z ilammy: As, probably, syntax-rules in general. Fancy syntax-case and other Racketish stuff goes in every field. 2014-08-27T19:33:16Z Vutral joined #scheme 2014-08-27T19:33:20Z Vutral quit (Excess Flood) 2014-08-27T19:33:59Z lolcow is now known as leppie 2014-08-27T19:34:41Z taylanub wonders if there's a 50-words-or-less-plus-an-example-or-two explanation of syntax/parse that will pass his attention-span filter 2014-08-27T19:36:43Z stamourv: taylanub: It gives you procedural macros with the ability to abstract over common syntactic patterns, in the way a parser would. 2014-08-27T19:36:54Z stamourv: E.g. bindings lists, cond clauses, etc. 2014-08-27T19:39:20Z Vutral joined #scheme 2014-08-27T19:39:59Z Vutral quit (Excess Flood) 2014-08-27T19:41:20Z acarrico quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2014-08-27T19:44:38Z taylanub: hrm, thanks. I never wrote a parser so not sure yet what that would offer over syntax-case's abilities 2014-08-27T19:45:34Z stamourv: Well, imagine you were writing a bunch of similar macros. For example, the `for` comprehensions in Racket. You have `for/list` that generates lists, `for/vector` that generates vectors, etc. 2014-08-27T19:45:58Z stamourv: They all have similar syntax: `(for/X (clause ...) body ...)`. 2014-08-27T19:46:30Z stamourv: But clauses have a specific structure. They're either binding clauses (with one or multiple bindings), or #:when clauses, or ... 2014-08-27T19:46:46Z stamourv: You want to define what it means to be a "for clause" once and for all, then reuse that for all your macros. 2014-08-27T19:47:12Z stamourv: Syntax-parse gives you syntax classes, which are ways to abstract over these kinds of common patterns. 2014-08-27T19:47:22Z Vutral joined #scheme 2014-08-27T19:47:28Z Vutral quit (Excess Flood) 2014-08-27T19:47:40Z sroy_ quit (Quit: Leaving) 2014-08-27T19:48:46Z stamourv: That, plus a lot of built-in syntax classes, makes it really easy to write macros that enforce syntactic well-formedness. And most importantly, it automatically generates good error messages based on the syntax classes. 2014-08-27T19:49:18Z stamourv: So it's really easy to write pleasant to use macros, with a lot of checking and good errors, without having to write all that yourself (which no one ever does). 2014-08-27T19:49:30Z stamourv: That was more than 50 words, but hopefully, you get the idea. ;) 2014-08-27T19:49:37Z taylanub: ah, also gleening over the intro in Racket docs, seeing the mention of "annotated pattern variables," that makes sense together, thanks :) 2014-08-27T19:50:21Z Vutral joined #scheme 2014-08-27T19:50:23Z Vutral quit (Excess Flood) 2014-08-27T19:58:26Z acarrico joined #scheme 2014-08-27T20:15:34Z BossKonaSegwaY quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-08-27T20:16:20Z ee_cc_ quit (Quit: ee_cc_) 2014-08-27T20:18:15Z Vutral joined #scheme 2014-08-27T20:18:21Z Vutral quit (Excess Flood) 2014-08-27T20:22:14Z Vutral joined #scheme 2014-08-27T20:22:17Z Vutral quit (Excess Flood) 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pnkfelix quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-08-28T08:40:01Z dytrivedi_ is now known as dytrivedi 2014-08-28T08:41:32Z jlongster joined #scheme 2014-08-28T08:45:11Z MichaelRaskin joined #scheme 2014-08-28T08:45:21Z Impersonator joined #scheme 2014-08-28T08:46:02Z jlongster quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2014-08-28T08:52:39Z Impersonator left #scheme 2014-08-28T08:56:34Z leppie quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2014-08-28T08:56:51Z lamC joined #scheme 2014-08-28T08:59:29Z lamC: (define new-loc (let ((n 0)) (lambda () (begin (set! n (+ n 1)) n)))) Every time I call (new-loc), it plus one. Why the (let ((n 0))) in later call didn't work? 2014-08-28T09:01:00Z ijp: what do you mean? 2014-08-28T09:01:23Z ijp: are you asking why it doesn't always return one? 2014-08-28T09:01:26Z ecraven: lamC: because it's outside the lambda, it is only evaluated once when defining new-loc, not every time the function is called 2014-08-28T09:01:30Z leppie joined #scheme 2014-08-28T09:03:26Z lamC: Thank you, ecraven:) 2014-08-28T09:05:21Z mrowe_away is now known as mrowe 2014-08-28T09:06:04Z ANGRYSTEVE quit (Quit: Sunya in my bunya) 2014-08-28T09:07:24Z lamC quit (Quit: Page closed) 2014-08-28T09:09:30Z ventonegro quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2014-08-28T09:10:44Z kyun joined #scheme 2014-08-28T09:11:30Z Rodya_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2014-08-28T09:12:54Z jusss quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-08-28T09:18:21Z gravicappa joined #scheme 2014-08-28T09:19:23Z BossKonaSegwaY quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-08-28T09:21:56Z ventonegro joined #scheme 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So far I have one vote each way. 2014-08-28T20:10:04Z jcowan: They are standard mathematical set operations, but there is no precedent for supporting them in any of the functional languages I normally look to, and they are obviously expensive operations. 2014-08-28T20:12:40Z acarrico joined #scheme 2014-08-28T20:25:21Z jeapostrophe joined #scheme 2014-08-28T20:28:49Z rszeno joined #scheme 2014-08-28T20:29:26Z mejja joined #scheme 2014-08-28T20:29:53Z jeapostrophe quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-08-28T20:47:47Z ijp2 joined #scheme 2014-08-28T20:49:02Z pygospa quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2014-08-28T20:50:37Z ijp2 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-08-28T20:55:53Z ARM9 quit (Quit: Leaving) 2014-08-28T20:56:33Z stamourv: jcowan: I recommend looking at Racket's generic sets library. cce did a really good job on it. 2014-08-28T20:56:49Z pygospa joined #scheme 2014-08-28T20:57:16Z stamourv: Although it's unclear how much of the design would carry over, given Scheme stubborn refusal to allow any kind of generic programming. 2014-08-28T20:57:38Z autochthon joined #scheme 2014-08-28T20:59:17Z jcowan: stamourv: Okay, I have everything in that library (which does not include cartesian product or power set) 2014-08-28T20:59:27Z jcowan: As I said, I don't know of any set libraries that do include them. 2014-08-28T21:01:55Z Rubix quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-08-28T21:02:03Z rszeno quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2014-08-28T21:03:07Z pnkfelix joined #scheme 2014-08-28T21:03:46Z mrowe_away is now known as mrowe 2014-08-28T21:04:06Z jeapostrophe joined #scheme 2014-08-28T21:04:06Z jeapostrophe quit (Changing host) 2014-08-28T21:04:06Z jeapostrophe joined #scheme 2014-08-28T21:04:46Z pygospa quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-08-28T21:05:50Z pygospa joined #scheme 2014-08-28T21:10:15Z pygospa quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-08-28T21:12:03Z jeapostrophe quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-08-28T21:13:48Z suppi_ quit (Quit: Leaving) 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2014-08-28T23:04:13Z annodomini joined #scheme 2014-08-28T23:04:21Z offby1: oh! so he did. 2014-08-28T23:04:26Z offby1: oh well 2014-08-28T23:04:35Z offby1: rudybot: later tell jcowan I occasionally want cartesian product, but then I only use scheme for playing around 2014-08-28T23:04:35Z rudybot: *offby1: I asked `MemoServ' to forward the message to jcowan. 2014-08-28T23:08:07Z stepnem quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-08-28T23:10:47Z annodomini quit (Quit: annodomini) 2014-08-28T23:10:59Z Sgeo joined #scheme 2014-08-28T23:14:22Z yrdz quit (Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)) 2014-08-28T23:15:28Z yrdz joined #scheme 2014-08-28T23:24:21Z mrowe_away is now known as mrowe 2014-08-28T23:27:26Z annodomini joined #scheme 2014-08-28T23:31:47Z BossKonaSegwaY quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2014-08-28T23:36:05Z hiroakip quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2014-08-28T23:42:41Z ilammy quit (Quit: Page closed) 2014-08-28T23:47:13Z BossKonaSegwaY joined #scheme 2014-08-28T23:57:24Z 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2014-08-29T04:06:20Z ANGRYSTEVE joined #scheme 2014-08-29T04:08:19Z rusk joined #scheme 2014-08-29T04:08:30Z rusk: Hello. People here? 2014-08-29T04:08:50Z Fare quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2014-08-29T04:09:29Z Riastradh: Nobody here but us garbage-collected objects. 2014-08-29T04:09:31Z rusk: I have a question as to why my remainder function is crashing in drRacket 2014-08-29T04:09:32Z rusk: (rem x y) (if (< x y) 2014-08-29T04:09:33Z pera quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2014-08-29T04:09:55Z rusk: (define (rem x y) (if (< x y) (- y x) (rem (- x y) y))) 2014-08-29T04:10:50Z rusk: Im assuming it has something to do with the (- y x) portion that should actually spit out the remainder 2014-08-29T04:11:29Z Riastradh: How does it crash? 2014-08-29T04:11:40Z rusk101 joined #scheme 2014-08-29T04:12:58Z rusk: never mind.. it doesnt crash 2014-08-29T04:13:03Z rusk: something is wrong with my code 2014-08-29T04:13:06Z rusk: sorry for the bother 2014-08-29T04:13:52Z rusk: XD 2014-08-29T04:14:02Z rusk: Bye bye. thanks for responding tho. 2014-08-29T04:14:14Z kyun: Racket! 2014-08-29T04:14:36Z rusk: i just started racket today and boy I am enjoying it. Probably more than haskell 2014-08-29T04:15:28Z kyun: Racket is easy to learn 2014-08-29T04:15:41Z kyun: The good doc 2014-08-29T04:30:11Z offby1: KHAN! 2014-08-29T04:32:55Z rusk quit (Quit: Page closed) 2014-08-29T04:32:57Z rusk101 quit (Quit: Page closed) 2014-08-29T04:33:23Z chris__ joined #scheme 2014-08-29T04:34:34Z annodomini quit (Quit: annodomini) 2014-08-29T04:43:01Z ANGRYSTEVE quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-08-29T05:08:08Z byte48 joined #scheme 2014-08-29T05:16:46Z chris__ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-08-29T05:23:26Z oleo quit (Quit: Verlassend) 2014-08-29T05:31:47Z jusss joined #scheme 2014-08-29T05:31:56Z Kabaka quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2014-08-29T05:40:22Z hiroakip joined #scheme 2014-08-29T05:43:21Z jusss quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-08-29T05:44:21Z fantazo joined #scheme 2014-08-29T05:55:02Z hiroakip quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2014-08-29T06:12:17Z Vutral quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2014-08-29T06:12:17Z 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#scheme 2014-08-29T11:49:40Z zwer quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-08-29T11:50:22Z taylanub: in the RnRS, is it implicit that if the call/cc argument proc doesn't call the cont given to it, it just returns normally (as if calling the cont on the last expression it evals)? 2014-08-29T11:50:25Z annodomini joined #scheme 2014-08-29T11:50:25Z annodomini quit (Changing host) 2014-08-29T11:50:25Z annodomini joined #scheme 2014-08-29T11:51:03Z zwer joined #scheme 2014-08-29T11:51:20Z taylanub: it's not explicitly mentioned what should happen if the cont isn't called, but I suppose that behavior is implied, since call/cc just does a normal procedure call to its proc argument, just with the continuation also given to it explicitly so it can return to it early, store it to re-return to it later, etc. etc. 2014-08-29T11:57:21Z fizzie: The examples in at least R5RS (the (list-length '(1 2 3 4)) ===> 4 in particular) also imply it. 2014-08-29T11:58:12Z taylanub: ah, thanks 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jkraemer Pie_Mage Riastradh effy MichaelRaskin gabot omefire1 taylanub acarrico _will_ yrdz cataska byte48 LeoNerd abbe ARM9 Vutral ventonegro ivan\ BossKonaSegwaY karswell lusory pjb Kabaka Razz xian bars0 tstc gnomon amoe b_jonas ohama 2014-08-29T12:35:40Z names: jrslepak weinholt defanor Jasper-Schmitt cmatei C-Keen GGMethos arbscht offby1 shardz edw 2014-08-29T12:38:13Z joast1 joined #scheme 2014-08-29T12:40:37Z oleo joined #scheme 2014-08-29T12:41:28Z joast1 quit (Client Quit) 2014-08-29T12:44:38Z joast joined #scheme 2014-08-29T12:44:55Z annodomini quit (Quit: annodomini) 2014-08-29T12:44:59Z chris____ joined #scheme 2014-08-29T12:48:13Z ilammy quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2014-08-29T12:51:24Z pjdelport: taylanub: Right. Once reified by call/cc and passed to the proc, the continuation is just a normal object to be called or GC'd. 2014-08-29T13:04:16Z jeapostrophe quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2014-08-29T13:05:57Z jeapostrophe joined #scheme 2014-08-29T13:05:57Z jeapostrophe quit (Changing host) 2014-08-29T13:05:57Z jeapostrophe joined #scheme 2014-08-29T13:11:04Z chris____ quit (Quit: leaving) 2014-08-29T13:16:22Z ivanshmakov quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2014-08-29T13:16:32Z fridim_ quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-08-29T13:22:49Z ivanshmakov joined #scheme 2014-08-29T13:34:48Z stepnem joined #scheme 2014-08-29T13:41:39Z Nizumzen quit (Quit: KVIrc 4.2.0 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/) 2014-08-29T13:45:17Z Bahman quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-08-29T13:47:05Z Bahman joined #scheme 2014-08-29T13:49:42Z fantazo joined #scheme 2014-08-29T13:55:13Z gravicappa quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2014-08-29T13:59:21Z gravicappa joined #scheme 2014-08-29T13:59:34Z bit` quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2014-08-29T14:04:03Z _eugen joined #scheme 2014-08-29T14:04:29Z Rodya joined #scheme 2014-08-29T14:14:33Z bit` joined #scheme 2014-08-29T14:17:34Z _5kg joined #scheme 2014-08-29T14:21:38Z gnomon is now known as gnomon__ 2014-08-29T14:21:45Z gnomon__ is now known as gnomon 2014-08-29T14:25:27Z Riastradh quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-08-29T14:26:48Z ilammy joined #scheme 2014-08-29T14:27:16Z bit` quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2014-08-29T14:28:09Z Bahman quit (Quit: Ave atque vale) 2014-08-29T14:36:03Z guampa quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-08-29T14:36:07Z zwer quit (Write error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-08-29T14:36:35Z zwer joined #scheme 2014-08-29T14:36:51Z taylanub quit (Disconnected by services) 2014-08-29T14:37:17Z taylanub joined #scheme 2014-08-29T14:37:18Z guampa joined #scheme 2014-08-29T14:38:28Z Jasper-Schmitt quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-08-29T14:40:03Z iterrogo joined #scheme 2014-08-29T14:41:32Z bit` joined #scheme 2014-08-29T14:42:47Z mrowe_away quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-08-29T14:42:53Z girrig quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-08-29T14:43:23Z cjh` quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-08-29T14:43:30Z anannie joined #scheme 2014-08-29T14:43:30Z anannie quit (Changing host) 2014-08-29T14:43:30Z anannie joined #scheme 2014-08-29T14:43:32Z cjh` joined #scheme 2014-08-29T14:43:54Z Cheery quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-08-29T14:43:54Z ananna quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-08-29T14:44:03Z Cheery joined #scheme 2014-08-29T14:45:14Z mrowe_away joined #scheme 2014-08-29T14:45:19Z girrig joined #scheme 2014-08-29T14:47:04Z tadni`` quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2014-08-29T14:50:53Z tadni joined #scheme 2014-08-29T14:52:26Z Fare joined #scheme 2014-08-29T14:53:34Z Bahman joined #scheme 2014-08-29T14:56:31Z Riastradh joined #scheme 2014-08-29T14:56:46Z bjz quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2014-08-29T14:57:16Z developernotes joined #scheme 2014-08-29T14:57:48Z bjz joined #scheme 2014-08-29T14:58:08Z duggiefresh joined #scheme 2014-08-29T15:00:27Z asumu_ is now known as asumu 2014-08-29T15:00:36Z asumu quit (Changing host) 2014-08-29T15:00:36Z asumu joined #scheme 2014-08-29T15:21:53Z effy quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-08-29T15:25:30Z Nizumzen joined #scheme 2014-08-29T15:26:30Z Rptx joined #scheme 2014-08-29T15:26:58Z cmatei quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-08-29T15:27:08Z effy joined #scheme 2014-08-29T15:27:23Z joneshf-laptop joined #scheme 2014-08-29T15:28:03Z annodomini joined #scheme 2014-08-29T15:28:04Z annodomini quit (Changing host) 2014-08-29T15:28:04Z annodomini joined #scheme 2014-08-29T15:29:19Z suppi joined #scheme 2014-08-29T15:29:20Z suppi quit (Changing host) 2014-08-29T15:29:20Z suppi joined #scheme 2014-08-29T15:30:02Z joneshf-laptop quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2014-08-29T15:30:35Z joneshf-laptop joined #scheme 2014-08-29T15:31:40Z Bahman quit (Quit: Ave atque vale) 2014-08-29T15:33:26Z Rptx: Hey guys. I was trying to access "http://community.schemewiki.org/" and getting file not found. 2014-08-29T15:33:37Z Rptx: last night it worked just fine. 2014-08-29T15:35:22Z wingo quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-08-29T15:39:39Z annodomini quit (Quit: annodomini) 2014-08-29T15:39:51Z Riastradh quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-08-29T15:41:30Z Bahman joined #scheme 2014-08-29T15:43:45Z gravicappa quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-08-29T15:46:32Z jeapostrophe quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-08-29T16:00:12Z ventonegro quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-08-29T16:09:27Z karswell quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2014-08-29T16:27:19Z duggiefresh quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-08-29T16:39:02Z nisstyre: Rptx: 500 internal server error 2014-08-29T16:39:16Z nisstyre: someone broke it 2014-08-29T16:39:28Z nisstyre: they're using apache, not surprised it's broken >.> 2014-08-29T16:42:59Z pera quit (Quit: leaving) 2014-08-29T16:48:16Z gravicappa joined #scheme 2014-08-29T16:50:03Z Rptx: nisstyre: Yeah, someone broke it. I thought I could find him here. But well, he must be busy today. 2014-08-29T16:50:55Z developernotes quit (Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2014-08-29T16:51:18Z developernotes joined #scheme 2014-08-29T16:54:23Z dmiles_afk joined #scheme 2014-08-29T16:56:43Z sheilong joined #scheme 2014-08-29T17:01:06Z Bahman quit (Quit: Ave atque vale) 2014-08-29T17:02:33Z Bahman joined #scheme 2014-08-29T17:02:42Z theseb joined #scheme 2014-08-29T17:03:05Z theseb left #scheme 2014-08-29T17:20:17Z yacks quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-08-29T17:21:14Z yacks joined #scheme 2014-08-29T17:21:26Z ijp joined #scheme 2014-08-29T17:28:32Z zacts quit (Quit: leaving) 2014-08-29T17:28:53Z zacts joined #scheme 2014-08-29T17:29:36Z developernotes quit (Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. 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2014-08-29T21:56:03Z names: ccl-logbot cjh` edw necronian ctindall diginet kyfho daviid` offby1` Nizumzen ANGRYSTEVE kongtomorrow hiroakip kazimir42 copec Vutral ivanshmakov oleo Riastradh oldskirt Rptx ilammy_ aretecode ggherdov jlongster alexei Gyps annodomini karswell zacts ijp yacks dmiles_afk joneshf-laptop effy bjz Fare tadni girrig mrowe_away Cheery anannie guampa taylanub zwer ilammy _5kg Rodya stepnem joast cdidd_ clog araujo acieroid dsp githogori SHODAN DerGuteMoritz 2014-08-29T21:56:03Z names: sad0ur gf3 certaint1 rmrfchik rotty_ finnrobi_ poucet aoh bzf eagleflo dan64 akp nisstyre Nshag Sgeo_ samth duncanm pygospa greghendershott_ nitrix choas ft renopt_ _tca dytrivedi Blkt lolcow FracV DKordic` aksatac_ yosafbridge vukcrni Neet cky zz_jrhorn424 es_ kwmiebach____ c74d Guest51409 asumu utkarsh mario-goulart Soft superjudge__ ELLIOTTCABLE evhan` niklasl2 defanor weinholt jrslepak ohama b_jonas amoe gnomon tstc bars0 xian Razz Kabaka pjb lusory 2014-08-29T21:56:03Z names: ivan\ ARM9 abbe LeoNerd byte48 cataska yrdz _will_ acarrico omefire1 gabot MichaelRaskin ineiros alpha- eMBee m4burns Okasu dpk fgudin tsuyoshi z0d felipe ByronJohnson Kryo haroldwu dca Natch turbofail balkamos tessier pjdelport Saeren pyro- kbtr micro cross cibs averell Kruppe pchrist teiresias waxysubs sethalves frkout rbarraud fizzie rainbyte klutomet1s stamourv kilimanjaro twem2_ SirDayBat mornfall gluegadget joneshf akkad aap_ juanfra petercommand 2014-08-29T21:56:03Z names: zbigniew_ carc ski fadein Khisanth ozzloy_ antoszka arrubin leo2007 alezost rudybot fikusz jkraemer Pie_Mage 2014-08-29T21:56:46Z cite-reader joined #scheme 2014-08-29T21:57:26Z visualshock joined #scheme 2014-08-29T21:59:43Z BossKonaSegwaY joined #scheme 2014-08-29T22:01:17Z girrig quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2014-08-29T22:03:34Z ilammy_ quit (Quit: Page closed) 2014-08-29T22:03:41Z bit` joined #scheme 2014-08-29T22:06:09Z girrig joined #scheme 2014-08-29T22:06:14Z kongtomorrow quit 2014-08-29T22:06:37Z zwer quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2014-08-29T22:10:03Z zwer joined #scheme 2014-08-29T22:11:21Z daviid joined #scheme 2014-08-29T22:11:21Z 17SAA2OA1 joined #scheme 2014-08-29T22:11:21Z C-Keen joined #scheme 2014-08-29T22:11:21Z arbscht joined #scheme 2014-08-29T22:11:21Z offby1 joined #scheme 2014-08-29T22:11:21Z shardz joined #scheme 2014-08-29T22:11:21Z 17SAAUSIK joined #scheme 2014-08-29T22:12:11Z mrowe_away is now known as mrowe 2014-08-29T22:12:43Z offby1 quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2014-08-29T22:12:50Z daviid quit (Ping timeout: 305 seconds) 2014-08-29T22:12:52Z 17SAA2OA1 quit (Ping timeout: 305 seconds) 2014-08-29T22:12:52Z 17SAAUSIK quit (Ping timeout: 305 seconds) 2014-08-29T22:13:02Z kyfho: hmmmmmm 2014-08-29T22:13:02Z kyfho: scheme!!!! 2014-08-29T22:13:02Z kyfho: " When it comes to programming a computer, there is not that much difference between what we can do and what we can imagine! You deal with idealized components! You could build a million stage amplifier!" 2014-08-29T22:13:02Z kyfho: 9~WOOAOAOAOO 2014-08-29T22:13:21Z Intensity joined #scheme 2014-08-29T22:13:28Z Intensity quit (Changing host) 2014-08-29T22:13:28Z Intensity joined #scheme 2014-08-29T22:15:44Z Nizumzen quit (Quit: KVIrc 4.2.0 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/) 2014-08-29T22:18:09Z dmiles_afk quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-08-29T22:18:43Z dmiles_afk joined #scheme 2014-08-29T22:21:52Z jlongster quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-08-29T22:27:30Z didi joined #scheme 2014-08-29T22:30:23Z ARM9 quit (Quit: Leaving) 2014-08-29T22:36:20Z mrowe is now known as mrowe_away 2014-08-29T22:40:34Z visualshock quit (Quit: Leaving) 2014-08-29T22:48:15Z GGMethos joined #scheme 2014-08-29T22:50:24Z hiroakip quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2014-08-29T23:03:05Z Fare quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2014-08-29T23:04:28Z Gyps quit (Quit: Gyps) 2014-08-29T23:06:30Z Rptx quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2014-08-29T23:08:31Z 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#scheme 2014-08-30T03:55:32Z Fare joined #scheme 2014-08-30T04:11:32Z theseb quit (Quit: Leaving) 2014-08-30T04:11:54Z b4283 joined #scheme 2014-08-30T04:22:07Z tadni joined #scheme 2014-08-30T04:22:55Z b4283 quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2014-08-30T04:27:24Z yacks joined #scheme 2014-08-30T04:35:28Z leo2007 quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2014-08-30T04:40:10Z kyfho joined #scheme 2014-08-30T04:40:22Z kyfho: scheme vs prolog? 2014-08-30T04:42:34Z nisstyre: completely different languages 2014-08-30T04:42:43Z dmiles_afk: is scheme easy to impl? 2014-08-30T04:42:46Z nisstyre: but scheme can do logic programming 2014-08-30T04:42:53Z Fare quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-08-30T04:43:00Z nisstyre: scheme is pretty easy to implement a basic compiler for yes 2014-08-30T04:43:24Z dmiles_afk: one that can run just about any scheme program? 2014-08-30T04:43:28Z nisstyre: read Lisp In Small Pieces for a good intro to implementing Scheme and other lisps 2014-08-30T04:43:31Z nisstyre: dmiles_afk: yes 2014-08-30T04:44:07Z dmiles_afk: nisstyre: the reaon i ask.. is i started impl lisp.. and i realized i was bitting off too much.. but to impl scheme good i was hopping simpler 2014-08-30T04:44:10Z nisstyre: kyfho: http://kanren.sourceforge.net/ 2014-08-30T04:44:30Z nisstyre: dmiles_afk: it is easy enough, the tricky part is probably macros 2014-08-30T04:44:49Z nisstyre: also closure conversion and environments is a bit tricky because there are many ways you can do it 2014-08-30T04:45:07Z dmiles_afk: for me implmenting the macros was super easy 2014-08-30T04:45:12Z dmiles_afk: (for lisp) 2014-08-30T04:45:23Z nisstyre: well scheme has hygienic macros 2014-08-30T04:45:24Z dmiles_afk: its just all the years of baggage 2014-08-30T04:45:29Z kyfho: what are some cool e commerce sites done in scheme? 2014-08-30T04:45:36Z nisstyre: don't know of any 2014-08-30T04:47:25Z dmiles_afk: if a schem impl wanted ot use java code.. do they need to use some library that was writeen for a specific impl? 2014-08-30T04:47:43Z dmiles_afk: (erm call java class our of .jar files) 2014-08-30T04:48:01Z kyfho: avoid java and oracle at all costs 2014-08-30T04:48:05Z kyfho: oracle must die 2014-08-30T04:48:05Z nisstyre: you need some way to call java methods from another language 2014-08-30T04:48:18Z nisstyre: that would be difficult I think 2014-08-30T04:48:18Z dmiles_afk: this question is for me to help judge just how needy scheme programmers or of an FFI 2014-08-30T04:48:35Z nisstyre: they have C FFIs 2014-08-30T04:48:42Z nisstyre: that's good enough for me 2014-08-30T04:48:48Z dmiles_afk: needy or expectant of a FFI 2014-08-30T04:48:55Z dmiles_afk: ok good 2014-08-30T04:49:19Z nisstyre: I would much much rather call C code than Java code 2014-08-30T04:49:24Z nisstyre: I don't care how "well engineered" it is 2014-08-30T04:50:25Z dmiles_afk: i am planning to impl scheme in SWI prolog .. so I already have tons of usable C/Mono/C++/Java FFI 2014-08-30T04:50:41Z nisstyre: ok 2014-08-30T04:51:12Z b4283 joined #scheme 2014-08-30T04:52:14Z kyfho: swi prolog is awesome 2014-08-30T04:52:21Z kyfho: skip java and dot net 2014-08-30T04:52:29Z kyfho: skip virtualization oracle and san 2014-08-30T04:52:35Z kyfho: use prolog as the db 2014-08-30T04:52:37Z kyfho: :) 2014-08-30T04:52:39Z kyfho: aw yeah 2014-08-30T04:52:44Z kyfho: on raid 10 2014-08-30T04:52:58Z dmiles_afk: i implemented a .net compiler in swi-prolog ... though i have only used it once ..lol 2014-08-30T04:53:39Z dmiles_afk: https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/comp.lang.prolog/TJmPS5lfFuY 2014-08-30T04:54:27Z dmiles_afk: but i promise myself if i do a schem impl.. i'll use it 2014-08-30T04:56:25Z dmiles_afk: erm i mean i promise i'll learn it that is 2014-08-30T04:58:32Z dmiles_afk: i am sure there are a ton of libraries people use.. that iomplemtns vectors api and imaginary numnbers and so forth 2014-08-30T04:59:13Z dmiles_afk: so i am tryign to find out how much needs to bwe there to bootstrap a bunch of libraries from like PLTScheme 2014-08-30T05:02:11Z dmiles_afk: like if i started out with SOID (SIOD: Scheme in One Defun) how crippled would i be? 2014-08-30T05:02:39Z dmiles_afk: http://www.cs.indiana.edu/scheme-repository/imp/siod.html 2014-08-30T05:05:27Z kyfho: skip .net 2014-08-30T05:05:30Z kyfho: skip oracle 2014-08-30T05:05:50Z dmiles_afk: or the better question.. is if a seasoned scheme programmer only had SOID.. woujld they be happy? 2014-08-30T05:06:09Z b4283 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2014-08-30T05:06:37Z dmiles_afk: or could it run mniKanren? 2014-08-30T05:07:38Z dmiles_afk: not that miniKanren is complex.. but eventual someone would start logically wrapping more parts of scheme while messing arround 2014-08-30T05:09:04Z dmiles_afk: oh dear soid used to be one .c and one .h .. now its 50 files 2014-08-30T05:09:41Z dmiles_afk: well three: soid.c soid.h soid.scm 2014-08-30T05:09:49Z kyfho: I wonder if scheme could serve web pages and then keep data in memory, and every mnute dump updates to a logfile 2014-08-30T05:10:00Z kyfho: skipping databse and using scheme as the database 2014-08-30T05:11:32Z kongtomorrow quit 2014-08-30T05:12:09Z evhan` is now known as evhan 2014-08-30T05:12:20Z dmiles_afk: that is what i do in prlog ... id' do the same in scheme 2014-08-30T05:14:53Z dmiles_afk: the important then is you can read/write to things klike text file 2014-08-30T05:15:23Z dmiles_afk: well that you could load your logfile i mean 2014-08-30T05:16:16Z kyfho quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2014-08-30T05:18:33Z arbscht quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-08-30T05:20:23Z renopt_ is now known as renopt 2014-08-30T05:20:31Z renopt quit (Changing host) 2014-08-30T05:20:31Z renopt joined #scheme 2014-08-30T05:31:37Z arbscht joined #scheme 2014-08-30T06:00:30Z fantazo joined #scheme 2014-08-30T06:01:22Z tadni quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-08-30T06:08:09Z tadni joined #scheme 2014-08-30T06:22:14Z pnkfelix joined #scheme 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dytrivedi_ is now known as dytrivedi 2014-08-30T14:54:50Z averell joined #scheme 2014-08-30T14:54:54Z rainbyte joined #scheme 2014-08-30T14:55:27Z samth joined #scheme 2014-08-30T14:55:28Z arrubin joined #scheme 2014-08-30T14:55:46Z jkraemer joined #scheme 2014-08-30T14:55:50Z Nizumzen joined #scheme 2014-08-30T14:56:09Z superjudge___ is now known as superjudge__ 2014-08-30T14:56:18Z carc joined #scheme 2014-08-30T14:56:50Z omefire joined #scheme 2014-08-30T14:56:51Z nisstyre joined #scheme 2014-08-30T14:57:24Z fizzie joined #scheme 2014-08-30T14:58:14Z rotty joined #scheme 2014-08-30T14:58:46Z defanor joined #scheme 2014-08-30T15:01:47Z vanila joined #scheme 2014-08-30T15:01:48Z vanila: hi 2014-08-30T15:01:56Z vanila: is there any good way to do multi-stage scheme programming? 2014-08-30T15:02:32Z vanila: I guess quasi-quote is the most basic way, but what about something that keeps scope/binders in check? 2014-08-30T15:03:07Z Bahman joined #scheme 2014-08-30T15:04:06Z alexei quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2014-08-30T15:04:29Z taylanub: vanila: what is "multi-stage" programming? 2014-08-30T15:04:41Z amgarchIn9 joined #scheme 2014-08-30T15:05:16Z defanor_ quit (*.net *.split) 2014-08-30T15:05:16Z mornfall quit (*.net *.split) 2014-08-30T15:05:16Z rotty_ quit (*.net *.split) 2014-08-30T15:05:22Z vanila: taylanub, this is a new concept to me but I gather that it's the macro expansion stage occurs before program execution 2014-08-30T15:05:30Z vanila: it's similar to how* 2014-08-30T15:05:37Z vanila: but it let's you have more than just two stages 2014-08-30T15:07:10Z ijp: well, I am sure you are aware that macros can expand into macros can expand into macros .... 2014-08-30T15:11:20Z mornfall joined #scheme 2014-08-30T15:15:06Z ijp quit (Quit: unborking) 2014-08-30T15:19:02Z fantazo quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-08-30T15:22:01Z taylanub: vanila: you can build any amount of abstraction layers upon abstraction layers in any language that supports e.g. subroutine definitions. Lisps additionally support macro/syntax definitions, giving you a second essential tool to build such layers 2014-08-30T15:22:25Z yrdz`` quit (Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)) 2014-08-30T15:22:55Z vanila: ok! 2014-08-30T15:23:02Z taylanub: vanila: that aside, some languages offer "reflection" features, where some concepts which normally only exist at compile-time are carried over to execution time and can still be worked with there. for example in an object-oriented language, you could add additional methods to an object at run-time dynamically, or change out an implementation of one of its methods 2014-08-30T15:23:03Z yrdz joined #scheme 2014-08-30T15:24:10Z taylanub: vanila: however, such "reflective" features usually prevent some compiler optimizations. some Scheme systems are nevertheless very dynamic/reflective (e.g. in Guile you can freely play with the bindings a module exports) 2014-08-30T15:25:10Z ijp joined #scheme 2014-08-30T15:29:45Z vanila: very interesting 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1.0) 2014-08-31T08:00:18Z taylanub: "es mich nicht verletzt" 2014-08-31T08:00:22Z taylanub: rudy fails at German :P 2014-08-31T08:00:43Z stepnem joined #scheme 2014-08-31T08:12:25Z yosafbridge quit (Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)) 2014-08-31T08:13:59Z ANGRYSTEVE joined #scheme 2014-08-31T08:13:59Z ANGRYSTEVE quit (Changing host) 2014-08-31T08:13:59Z ANGRYSTEVE joined #scheme 2014-08-31T08:18:10Z yosafbridge joined #scheme 2014-08-31T08:22:22Z amgarchIn9 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-08-31T08:27:57Z jkraemer quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-08-31T08:51:32Z oleo is now known as Guest63199 2014-08-31T08:53:04Z oleo__ joined #scheme 2014-08-31T08:54:08Z Nizumzen joined #scheme 2014-08-31T08:54:27Z Guest63199 quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-08-31T09:01:11Z b4283 joined #scheme 2014-08-31T09:01:30Z vedm joined #scheme 2014-08-31T09:04:47Z BossKonaSegwaY quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-08-31T09:05:54Z vedm quit 2014-08-31T09:09:41Z gravicappa joined 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gluegadget_ is now known as gluegadget 2014-08-31T09:58:01Z gluegadget quit (Changing host) 2014-08-31T09:58:01Z gluegadget joined #scheme 2014-08-31T09:58:01Z gluegadget quit (Changing host) 2014-08-31T09:58:01Z gluegadget joined #scheme 2014-08-31T09:59:49Z ilammy_: ya 2014-08-31T10:02:16Z manu_: I'm building a simple scheme interpreter 2014-08-31T10:02:31Z manu_: and I'm looking for a kind of 'reference implementation' 2014-08-31T10:02:37Z manu_: what would i use best? 2014-08-31T10:02:43Z manu_: I'm working on linux btw 2014-08-31T10:03:54Z manu_: and I'm using the r5rs specs 2014-08-31T10:04:44Z taylanub: manu_: maybe Chibi 2014-08-31T10:05:32Z taylanub: well Chibi is nevertheless a "full" implementation of the standards. there might be something simpler out there that's not 100% conformant but more useful for educational purposes 2014-08-31T10:06:03Z manu_: to clarify; i'm not necesarilly looing for a source code 2014-08-31T10:06:30Z manu_: i plan to use it more to compare the output with my own implementation 2014-08-31T10:06:48Z manu_: although a simple/small source might be nice from time to time 2014-08-31T10:06:51Z taylanub: something like a test suite? 2014-08-31T10:06:53Z ilammy_: I believe you can just use Racket with #lang r5rs 2014-08-31T10:06:54Z manu_: kinda 2014-08-31T10:07:03Z ilammy_: For development 2014-08-31T10:07:15Z ilammy_: But yeah, Chibi is great for testing, running from a shell-script or something 2014-08-31T10:07:30Z manu_: and what about chicken? 2014-08-31T10:09:11Z taylanub: Chicken is a full-blown mature "real" implementation, or whatever to call it 2014-08-31T10:10:00Z manu_: that might be nice to get used to, in case i want to do some 'real' stuff 2014-08-31T10:10:17Z manu_: like i said, source/size doesn't really matter 2014-08-31T10:10:47Z mrowe_away is now known as mrowe 2014-08-31T10:11:09Z taylanub: if you like the GNU project and its software freedom ideals you might want to look into Guile. it's fun to hack on too IMO 2014-08-31T10:11:32Z manu_: i do :) 2014-08-31T10:13:09Z manu_: i think i'll stick with chicken, because it uses r5rs and is cross-platform 2014-08-31T10:13:10Z taylanub: not to say other Scheme implementations aren't free software; e.g. Racket is under the GPL, Chicken is at least BSD (non-copyleft; proprietary-friendly). but Guile is the official GNU Scheme. 2014-08-31T10:13:32Z manu_: i'll definitely check out the other ones though 2014-08-31T10:14:38Z taylanub: Guile also fully implements R5RS. it might not work well on MS Windows though; I often see patches for that on the ML. not sure how well it works on the BSDs either; I used it on OpenBSD for a while but it had initially caused some headaches due to recent libgc versions not working on OpenBSD... (they do now) 2014-08-31T10:14:52Z ilammy_: By the way 2014-08-31T10:15:08Z ilammy_: append appends lists, so (append '(1 2 3) '(4 5)) gives '(1 2 3 4 5) 2014-08-31T10:15:54Z ilammy_: how the function that appends elements is called? the one that turns (append-x '(1 2 3) 4) into '(1 2 3 4) 2014-08-31T10:16:08Z BossKonaSegwaY joined #scheme 2014-08-31T10:16:14Z ilammy_: Just need a name that is 'standard' 2014-08-31T10:16:15Z ARM9: I might've asked this before but what's the difference between mit scheme and guile? I thought they're both gnu 2014-08-31T10:16:16Z ARM9: why make two 2014-08-31T10:17:18Z taylanub: ARM9: MIT Scheme is also an official GNU project, but Guile was chosen as the "official extension language," is being more actively developed I think, recently added Emacs Lisp support and will hopefully become the core for Emacs, etc. 2014-08-31T10:17:40Z manu_: i'm confused ilammy_, what are your trying to say? 2014-08-31T10:17:49Z dmiles_afk quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-08-31T10:18:07Z taylanub: ARM9: thing is, the GNU project is very wide and includes a lot of packages by different authors. e.g. there's also many Common Lisp implementations that are official GNU projects. well at least two: CLisp and GCL 2014-08-31T10:18:16Z ARM9: cool 2014-08-31T10:18:39Z dmiles_afk joined #scheme 2014-08-31T10:18:46Z ARM9: yeah, that's true, just thought it was a bit confusing to have two implementations from the same group 2014-08-31T10:18:55Z ARM9: thanks for clearing that up 2014-08-31T10:19:04Z ilammy_: manu_: i want to know if there is any widespread name for such function, like append-tail or something 2014-08-31T10:19:10Z ARM9: isn't elisp gnu as well 2014-08-31T10:19:19Z manu_: i don't know, just starting out with scheme 2014-08-31T10:20:25Z ilammy_: (I knew I should have said that that question is totally unrelated to yours.) 2014-08-31T10:20:33Z taylanub: ARM9: the GNU project is barely a "group," it's more like a group of groups and individuals :P Emacs Lisp has no specification and is just whatever GNU Emacs implements. though there's XEmacs with its extended Elisp. 2014-08-31T10:20:39Z manu_: yeah, sry 2014-08-31T10:23:15Z manu_: anyway, thanks for the help guys :) 2014-08-31T10:27:40Z kongtomorrow quit 2014-08-31T10:29:58Z manu_ quit (Quit: Leaving) 2014-08-31T10:30:04Z oldskirt quit (Quit: gone) 2014-08-31T10:30:26Z ilammy_: I guess I'll call it attach... 2014-08-31T10:31:09Z hiroakip quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-08-31T10:31:26Z 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2014-08-31T21:13:51Z gnomon idly ties offby1's shoelaces together 2014-08-31T21:15:55Z abbe: cons-es ? 2014-08-31T21:20:23Z gnomon: What has it got in its conses-es? 2014-08-31T21:21:35Z wingo quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2014-08-31T21:21:41Z BossKonaSegwaY joined #scheme 2014-08-31T21:23:10Z oleo is now known as Guest65099 2014-08-31T21:24:24Z hellome joined #scheme 2014-08-31T21:24:57Z oleo__ joined #scheme 2014-08-31T21:25:16Z oleo__ is now known as oleo 2014-08-31T21:26:07Z Guest65099 quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-08-31T21:28:37Z hiroakip quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-08-31T21:28:52Z ASau quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-08-31T21:30:57Z khisanth_ joined #scheme 2014-08-31T21:32:21Z Khisanth quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-08-31T21:32:57Z hiroakip joined #scheme 2014-08-31T21:33:04Z BossKonaSegwaY left #scheme 2014-08-31T21:35:04Z kongtomorrow quit 2014-08-31T21:37:08Z hiyosi joined #scheme 2014-08-31T21:42:04Z hiyosi quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 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hyvr joined #scheme 2014-08-31T22:56:38Z yrdz joined #scheme 2014-08-31T22:58:25Z hyvr: Hi, I just opened the guile interpreter and when I hit enter or ctrl-M, the interpreter just prints ^M and ignores me. This makes it impossible to send any commands or get started, can anyone help? 2014-08-31T22:59:22Z Nizumzen joined #scheme 2014-08-31T22:59:31Z ijp joined #scheme 2014-08-31T23:02:01Z hyvr quit (Quit: Page closed) 2014-08-31T23:06:15Z ANGRYSTEVE quit (Quit: Sunya in my bunya) 2014-08-31T23:09:27Z Vutral quit (Excess Flood) 2014-08-31T23:14:12Z Vutral joined #scheme 2014-08-31T23:16:39Z kongtomorrow quit 2014-08-31T23:18:18Z hiroakip quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2014-08-31T23:21:11Z theseb quit (Quit: Leaving) 2014-08-31T23:21:51Z kongtomorrow joined #scheme 2014-08-31T23:21:54Z offby1 walks in circles 2014-08-31T23:26:53Z Lowfyr joined #scheme 2014-08-31T23:27:11Z Lowfyr: Hey, fellow schemers 2014-08-31T23:28:35Z Lowfyr: I'm trying to get into scheme a little bit, as I want to work my way through SICP, starting with Little Schemer to warm up. 2014-08-31T23:28:55Z Lowfyr: Which compiler/interpreter should I install? 2014-08-31T23:30:51Z vanila: racket is good for a full suite, chicken is good if you want something smaller than 1/3 of a GB 2014-08-31T23:32:25Z Lowfyr: I often saw DrRacket recommended, but I was a little confused as I thought that Racket would be a different lisp than scheme 2014-08-31T23:34:36Z fathogwash joined #scheme 2014-08-31T23:34:49Z fathogwash quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-08-31T23:35:01Z BossKonaSegwaY joined #scheme 2014-08-31T23:37:01Z mammetlugubrious joined #scheme 2014-08-31T23:37:59Z vanila: it has its own scheme language, and some standard ones too 2014-08-31T23:38:46Z hiyosi joined #scheme 2014-08-31T23:40:21Z Lowfyr: Ok, guess I'll go with racket then. Thank you for your help. 2014-08-31T23:42:01Z offby1: Lowfyr: yeah, racket actually comes with a pile of languages; the familiar R6RS is just one of them 2014-08-31T23:43:26Z hiyosi quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2014-08-31T23:45:10Z yrdz quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-08-31T23:45:56Z mammetlugubrious quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-08-31T23:46:01Z yrdz joined #scheme 2014-08-31T23:47:56Z yrdz quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-08-31T23:58:46Z Lowfyr: Will it also work with emacs?