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2014-07-02T01:42:46Z kongtomorrow: I'm working through SICP with someone, and we're up to the neato implementation of cons as a proc, https://gist.github.com/kongtomorrow/513747f7a105768719d8
2014-07-02T01:42:53Z kongtomorrow: in the method above, doing the dispatch is O(n) in the number of messages the receiver can handle
2014-07-02T01:42:58Z kongtomorrow: Q: is there a way to do it in O(1) without introducing a primitive data type like vector?
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2014-07-02T02:03:36Z taylanub: kongtomorrow: `case' might in theory be subject to the same optimizations mentioned in https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Switch_statement#Compilation but no idea whether/which implementations do this in practice
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2014-07-02T02:05:05Z taylanub: Guile seems to just expand case to cond+memv, for example
2014-07-02T02:05:15Z kongtomorrow: taylanub: yeah… my thought was maybe to do it with an eval
2014-07-02T02:05:29Z kongtomorrow: but I cannot figure out how to call eval in Racket with http://www.neilvandyke.org/racket-sicp/
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2014-07-02T02:05:58Z kongtomorrow: it wants a namespace, and I don't know how to get the current environment (namespace?)
2014-07-02T02:06:03Z taylanub: eval is certainly not the right answer here
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2014-07-02T02:07:05Z kongtomorrow: taylanub: well, like, if I could eval 'a in the proc's environment, that'd be O(1), wouldn't it?
2014-07-02T02:08:10Z taylanub: accessing the lexical environment programmatically means breaking the whole abstraction barrier of lexical scope and thwarting compiler optimizations
2014-07-02T02:08:59Z taylanub: which is why there's no standard way to do it by the way
2014-07-02T02:09:04Z kongtomorrow: ah
2014-07-02T02:09:39Z kongtomorrow: and yeah, I think I was hoping to basically get dynamic scope
2014-07-02T02:10:01Z taylanub: in terms of implementation (and perhaps also conceptually), it's rather complicated anyway, so restraining from using vectors and hash-tables and then using eval would be kind of pointless
2014-07-02T02:10:26Z kongtomorrow: I'm not exactly looking at this for practical reasons. :-) it's more a "what has to be primitive" thing.
2014-07-02T02:11:38Z kongtomorrow: anyway, maybe it really is impossible to implement an O(1) vector type without adding a new primitive
2014-07-02T02:12:06Z taylanub: presumably the fully procedural variant of that (should follow shortly in the book I think) would compile to O(1) code in a good implementation
2014-07-02T02:12:45Z kongtomorrow: what would "fully procedural" be?
2014-07-02T02:13:24Z kongtomorrow: (I've read through SICP before, I'm just helping someone else through now, and she raised this question)
2014-07-02T02:13:31Z taylanub: even the dispatch in the cell happens not through a cond but by calling a given procedure with the car and cdr objects
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2014-07-02T02:14:36Z taylanub: in code:  (define (cons x y) (lambda (getter) (getter x y)))  (define (car cons) (cons (lambda (x y) x)))  (define (cdr cons) (cons (lambda (x y) y)))
2014-07-02T02:14:48Z kongtomorrow: thanks, parsing…
2014-07-02T02:15:49Z kongtomorrow: yes, thanks.
2014-07-02T02:15:57Z kongtomorrow: I think this is what I was looking to do.
2014-07-02T02:16:13Z kongtomorrow: woo!
2014-07-02T02:16:23Z taylanub: :)
2014-07-02T02:17:48Z pyro-: i love that one
2014-07-02T02:18:02Z pyro-: i thought it was the most beautiful thing i'd seen when i first found it in sicp
2014-07-02T02:18:23Z taylanub: was also a total mind-bender for me the first time
2014-07-02T02:22:32Z pyro-: even granted that its the standard way of doing things in lambda calculus, i think its still amazing to see it in a full programming language
2014-07-02T02:23:57Z pyro-: the only problem with it is that it doesn't let you define builtin operations, like printing it as (x . y) instead of #<procedure>
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2014-07-02T02:28:06Z pyro-: or properly implementing a pair? while denying procedure?
2014-07-02T02:30:16Z pyro-: in that sense it seems a weakness of scheme to me, you can't really make new types that are indistuigishable from buitl in types, they way you can indeed make procedures that are indistuingishable from builtin procedures (unless your implementation prints them differently as #<builtin procedure>, #<user procedure>, or something)
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2014-07-02T02:33:38Z taylanub: pyro-: credible implementations had SRFI-9 or something like it for long; R7RS-small standardized SRFI-9
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2014-07-02T02:36:08Z taylanub: (I also think R6RS's record system is great actually, though it's quite sophisticated and apparently the syntactic layer's claimed superiority was wrong .. sealed records and the whole protocol stuff seems great though; the former allowing you to have records whose field accesses can be compiled into O(1), and the latter supporting single-inheritance very well)
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2014-07-02T02:37:03Z taylanub: (the former only necessary in the presence of the latter though, I guess)
2014-07-02T02:38:02Z pyro-: hm
2014-07-02T02:38:55Z pyro-: i haven't paid much attention to records in scheme
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2014-07-02T02:42:26Z pyro-: i guess i enjoy the procedural style
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2014-07-02T04:41:01Z phallic_elbegast: There is no real way to standard compliantly give a procedure a type is there?
2014-07-02T04:41:33Z phallic_elbegast: If you wrap it in a record type it can't be applied any more, some Schemes seem to support (parameter? x) for param objects which are also just normal functions, not sure how to make that
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2014-07-03T14:56:19Z DrDuck: This guy wrote the solutions to clrs in Scheme. Holy smokes: https://github.com/klutometis/clrs
2014-07-03T14:56:52Z DrDuck: I thought clrs had some algorithms in there that wouldn't allow a functional approach.
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2014-07-03T15:03:07Z taylanub: DrDuck: 1) Scheme isn't purely functional, 2) side-effectful functions are just pure functions taking the whole program state and returning a new program state as an extra implicit input/output :P
2014-07-03T15:03:32Z LeoNerd: taylanub: Quiet Monader!
2014-07-03T15:03:37Z DrDuck: :O
2014-07-03T15:04:01Z DrDuck: Seeing that repo makes me want to try clrs in scheme, too!
2014-07-03T15:06:02Z pjdelport: Imperative side-effects is just a way of writing purely functional effects without declaring your types properly. :)
2014-07-03T15:06:19Z pjdelport: (Like how dynamic typing is just static typing with only one type.)
2014-07-03T15:06:21Z pjdelport ducks
2014-07-03T15:06:52Z LeoNerd types pjdelport
2014-07-03T15:07:43Z LeoNerd: Sure; and any functional language is just a way of writing a pure lambda calculus reduction without the necessity to do things like Peano-encoding of numbers.
2014-07-03T15:07:48Z pjdelport :: coffee → code
2014-07-03T15:07:56Z LeoNerd: Sometimes these conveniences are useful practical enhancements though
2014-07-03T15:08:32Z LeoNerd: Almost all the code I write is intended to perform some imperative mutation on the state of the world; it's convenient not to have to pass around the entire world as an extra parameter into and out of every single functino
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2014-07-03T15:13:41Z DrDuck: He also did all of aima in scheme, too! https://github.com/klutometis/aima
2014-07-03T15:13:43Z DrDuck: sheesh
2014-07-03T15:14:26Z DrDuck: That is amazing. :O
2014-07-03T15:14:49Z pjdelport: LeoNerd: That's not really how purely functional effects work, though.
2014-07-03T15:16:24Z pjdelport: You really just need a type representing effects as a value, and combinators to combine effects together. There's no need to involve things like extra parameters.
2014-07-03T15:16:54Z DGASAU: That's only one way of thinking.
2014-07-03T15:17:40Z DGASAU: You can always say that you have object(s) of linear type.
2014-07-03T15:18:54Z DGASAU: So, once you bind a name to an object of given type you refer to the only possible object.
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2014-07-03T15:33:11Z DrDuck: What can I take away from the problems I'm doing in SICP that ask me to explore these different options in creating an apply-generic procedure to coerce types using 'drop' and 'raise'? https://mitpress.mit.edu/sicp/full-text/book/book-Z-H-18.html#%_thm_2.85
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2014-07-03T15:33:52Z DrDuck: Are 'drop' and 'raise' the type of procedures used in an OOP language for inheritance?
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2014-07-03T15:47:37Z pjdelport: DrDuck: I don't think that kind of dropping / raising really happens in OOP
2014-07-03T15:48:42Z jcowan: hoi
2014-07-03T15:49:04Z pjdelport: DrDuck: In the context of inheritance, you have the Liskov substitution principle, and depending on the language, concepts like "upcasting" and "downcasting", but none of those involve actually converting the representation of an object, like 'drop' and 'raise' do.
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2014-07-03T15:52:27Z DrDuck: pjdelport: Oh. I thought I read in a few places that the book will get into the OO view of computation. I wonder when that will be.
2014-07-03T15:54:13Z pjdelport: DrDuck: I think the next chapter gets more into that, for some value of "OO"
2014-07-03T15:54:53Z pjdelport: I don't think it really gets into classes and inheritance, though.
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2014-07-03T15:59:39Z DrDuck: pjdelport: I see. I guess all of this stuff in sections 2.4 and 2.5 can just fall under the polymorphism catagory since they deal with generic operations, data-directed programming, and coercion?
2014-07-03T15:59:57Z pjdelport: Yeah.
2014-07-03T16:00:57Z DrDuck: They never actually mention the word polymorphism, though. :|
2014-07-03T16:01:05Z jcowan: And since we believe in RELENTLESS MONOMORPHISM in Scheme, we have to do that with conversions.
2014-07-03T16:01:45Z pjdelport: DrDuck: Footnote https://mitpress.mit.edu/sicp/full-text/book/book-Z-H-18.html#footnote_Temp_289 actually addresses the class/inheritance concern.
2014-07-03T16:01:46Z rudybot: http://tinyurl.com/nojwyno
2014-07-03T16:02:15Z pjdelport: DrDuck: Yeah, "polymorphism" means a few different things.
2014-07-03T16:03:11Z DrDuck: "The main difference between the confusion that existed ten years ago and the confusion that exists now is that now a variety of inadequate ontological theories have been embodied in a plethora of correspondingly inadequate programming languages."
2014-07-03T16:03:35Z DrDuck: "... now a variety of inadequate ontological theories have been embodied in a plethora of correspondingly inadequate programming languages." Wonder what they mean.
2014-07-03T16:03:58Z DrDuck: Oh nevermind.
2014-07-03T16:04:03Z DrDuck: They say it in the next sentence.
2014-07-03T16:04:06Z DrDuck: lol
2014-07-03T16:04:41Z pjb: Otherwise it's clear: before we were confused because we didn't try anything yet, now we're cofnsued because we tried and failed.
2014-07-03T16:04:44Z DrDuck: pjdelport: Java and C++ center on the treatment of generic operations on interrelated types?
2014-07-03T16:04:48Z pjdelport: DrDuck: The most important kinds of polymorphism that are worth distinguishing are parametric polymorphism, ad hoc polymorphism, and probably subtyping.
2014-07-03T16:06:26Z DrDuck: "[...]  but we do not even mention ``classes'' or ``inheritance.'' In fact, we suspect that these problems cannot be adequately addressed in terms of computer-language design alone, without also drawing on work in knowledge representation and automated reasoning."
2014-07-03T16:06:37Z DrDuck: Can anyone tell me what's meant by that last sentence?
2014-07-03T16:07:21Z pjdelport: DrDuck: Re. Java and C++, I wouldn't necessarily say they center on it, but they try to address it, certainly (as most languages do).
2014-07-03T16:07:21Z pjb: It means that an object oriented system must be built according to some ontological rules.
2014-07-03T16:07:33Z pjb: It's not just a problem of syntax.
2014-07-03T16:08:26Z DrDuck: Hmm ok.
2014-07-03T16:08:49Z DrDuck: Maybe chapter 3 will have more to say on message passing, since that's supposed to be the core of OOP.
2014-07-03T16:09:50Z taylanub: hrm, does "ad-hoc polymorphism" imply dynamic dispatch?
2014-07-03T16:10:21Z pjdelport: DrDuck: Message passing is only one possible approach to OOP (a la Smalltalk); many OOP languages don't take that approach at all.
2014-07-03T16:10:42Z taylanub: I must've read about all the different OOP terms a thousand times now and still don't have a clear picture, but it's getting better :P
2014-07-03T16:10:47Z pjb: Well, even in Smalltalk, sending a message is not asynchronous, but is implemented as a function call.
2014-07-03T16:10:51Z pjdelport: taylanub: It might or might not, depending on the implementation.
2014-07-03T16:10:59Z pjb: There are very few systems where message passing is asynchronous (at least by default).
2014-07-03T16:11:03Z pjb: if at all.
2014-07-03T16:11:38Z DrDuck: http://userpage.fu-berlin.de/~ram/pub/pub_jf47ht81Ht/doc_kay_oop_en
2014-07-03T16:11:42Z pjb: Make each object automatically be monitors with their own thread.
2014-07-03T16:12:07Z DrDuck: "OOP to me means only messaging, local retention and protection and   hiding of state-process, and extreme late-binding of all things. It   can be done in Smalltalk and in LISP. There are possibly other   systems in which this is possible, but I'm not aware of them."
2014-07-03T16:12:08Z pjb: Erlang is probably closer to that.
2014-07-03T16:12:27Z DrDuck: :O
2014-07-03T16:12:28Z pjdelport: Parametric polymorphism is when a parameter can be of any possible type, and a function or data structure works generically without needing to know anything about the actual type.
2014-07-03T16:13:05Z taylanub: I guess there's nothing keeping a language from supporting ad-hoc polymorphism (adding methods with separate implementations to a generic) and still dispatching based on statically apparent types.  what languages do this though?  I bet it's one of the 10 ways you can do OOP in C++
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2014-07-03T16:13:52Z pjdelport: Something like the typed lists and map :: (a -> b) -> [a] -> [b] are examples of parametric polymorphism: they work regardless of what the actual types a and b are.
2014-07-03T16:15:16Z pjdelport: Ad hoc polymorphism is when the polymorphism is constrained to a subset of types that each provide different implementations of some operation or method; this includes things like interfaces and type classes in Haskell, where you have for example (+) :: Num a => a -> a -> a
2014-07-03T16:17:17Z pjdelport: Subtyping is somewhat related to ad hoc polymorphism, but instead of interfaces or type classes, you have general inheritance, with any subtype being usable in place of its supertypes. This is what class- and inheritance-based OOP languages generally use.
2014-07-03T16:18:39Z pjdelport: taylanub: Haskell's type classes are often statically dispatched.
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2014-07-03T16:20:12Z pjdelport: taylanub: Generally speaking, the compiler will statically resolve type classes at call sites, where it can, and use dictionary passing at run-time for cases that aren't statically constrained.
2014-07-03T16:20:40Z taylanub: something something module boundaries?
2014-07-03T16:21:02Z pjdelport: That's what GHC does, at least; you also get approaches like jhc that resolves and specializes all type classes statically IIRC (but it does whole-program compilation).
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2014-07-03T21:25:21Z rudybot: la la la
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2014-07-03T21:45:46Z taylanub: rudybot: aye buddy
2014-07-03T21:45:48Z rudybot: taylanub: Buddy, you wrote an interesting algorithm. You aren't gonna get rich over this.
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2014-07-05T10:34:30Z Bunny351: Good morning. I have written a new Scheme compiler for x86_64 systems, which is available at "http://www.call-with-current-continuation.org/bones/". Questions and suggestions are very welcome. Have a nice day.
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2014-07-05T11:36:27Z taylanub: the heck .. the above link works but without the /bones/ at the end it redirects to call-cc.org (Chicken), whereas call-cc.org/bones is 404 ...
2014-07-05T11:36:35Z taylanub: redirect magic
2014-07-05T11:37:52Z ski was pondering a little whether it was some kind of troll or prank
2014-07-05T11:38:20Z ski: (making a new Scheme implementation, mentioning it, then promptly quitting, i mean)
2014-07-05T11:38:36Z pjdelport: Only the root of the domain is redirected, presumably.
2014-07-05T11:38:41Z pjdelport: http://www.call-with-current-continuation.org/felix/
2014-07-05T11:38:53Z taylanub: aha
2014-07-05T11:39:12Z taylanub: hmm, that German company, wonder if they use Scheme .. I could apply
2014-07-05T11:39:29Z pjdelport: so Bunny351 == Felix Winkelmann, presumably
2014-07-05T11:40:39Z taylanub: well Felix is certainly not one to troll I'd say :P
2014-07-05T11:40:46Z taylanub: (Chicken dev)
2014-07-05T12:04:28Z Riastradh: Yep, Bunny351 is the name Felix usually uses here.  Haven't seen him in a while.
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2014-07-05T12:08:20Z taylanub: maybe Bones is an experiment on how efficient one can get by ignoring portability and just compiling Scheme to x86_64 assembly directly.
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2014-07-05T12:12:29Z ski: (oh, it was felix)
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2014-07-05T16:22:09Z naor: hi there
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2014-07-06T16:33:02Z Guest28109: تحذير
2014-07-06T16:33:02Z Guest28109: warning
2014-07-06T16:33:02Z Guest28109:  you may be  watched
2014-07-06T16:33:02Z Guest28109: do usa&israel use the internet(facebook,youtube,twitter, chat rooms ..ect)to spy??
2014-07-06T16:33:02Z Guest28109: do usa&israel use the internet 2 collect informations,,can we call that spying??
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2014-07-06T20:28:23Z offby1: Guest26878: this channel is about the scheme programming language.
2014-07-06T20:31:41Z zacts: offby1: they were on #perl the other day doing the same thing
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2014-07-06T21:36:00Z pjdelport: It's just a drive-by bot, yeah.
2014-07-06T21:44:22Z offby1 wonders why people bother writing that sorta bot
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2014-07-07T01:22:00Z DrDuck: Anyone else feel like the last part of any of the chapters in sicp is like defeating a boss in a game? They wont let you move on easily. x_x
2014-07-07T01:23:07Z taylanub: don't worry, you have infinite lives
2014-07-07T01:27:05Z DrDuck: In the Symbolic Algebra section of chap 2. Feels like chap 3 is so close yet so far.
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2014-07-07T02:22:44Z offby1: taylanub++
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2014-07-07T19:55:28Z unsafeCoerce: So someone on another channel asked me if I knew a good scheme tutorial and googling made me realize there are none. The top one is teach yourselfs cheme which seems to date from a time before hygienic macros.
2014-07-07T19:56:56Z pjb: unsafeCoerce: have you looked on http://schemers.org ?
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2014-07-07T19:58:16Z unsafeCoerce: pjb, well, the only thing that gives is how to design programs, which I feel would go beyond the scope of a simple scheme tutorial.
2014-07-07T19:59:29Z pjb: I guess it can't do any ill to write yet another tutorial.  It may be the right thing for some target audience.
2014-07-07T20:01:12Z asumu: unsafeCoerce: http://scheme.com/tspl4/ maybe?
2014-07-07T20:01:30Z taylanub: for people who are already programmers, I'm thinking an approach based on teaching sexprs first might be most effective
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2014-07-07T20:01:44Z unsafeCoerce: asumu, I know that one, that comes closer to specification than a tutorial though.
2014-07-07T20:01:47Z unsafeCoerce: taylanub, yes, I agree
2014-07-07T20:03:45Z mario-goulart: unsafeCoerce: what tutorial "level" do you want?  Is the target audience new to programming?  What scheme implementation do you intend to use?
2014-07-07T20:04:51Z unsafeCoerce: mario-goulart, I was more a bit intrigued by that all the tutorials that I found seem to be based on a relatively archaic form of scheme and also don't really follow good practices by today's standards.
2014-07-07T20:05:11Z unsafeCoerce: I'm not looking for anything in particular, I was just a bit confused I guess
2014-07-07T20:06:03Z mario-goulart: unsafeCoerce: I understand.  I also feel like that.  We have a good amount of books, but not quick and decent basic tutorials.
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2014-07-07T20:07:51Z mario-goulart: Today's standards have different meanings, depending on whom you are talking to.  Some assume r5rs, some r6rs and some r7rs. :-)
2014-07-07T20:07:58Z taylanub: I wrote http://paste.lisp.org/display/143115 some time but no idea how good it is now.
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2014-07-07T20:09:30Z mario-goulart: I once skimmed through http://www.cs.hut.fi/Studies/T-93.210/schemetutorial/schemetutorial.html and it looked nice, if you ignore a couple of things.
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2014-07-08T06:18:22Z BAMbanda: How's everyone doing?
2014-07-08T06:18:36Z BAMbanda: who here has played with the scheme shell and can give me some feedback
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2014-07-08T06:24:16Z zRecursive: BAMbanda: What's scheme shell ?
2014-07-08T06:24:41Z BAMbanda: zRecursive: http://scsh.net/
2014-07-08T06:25:33Z zRecursive: oh, that will be not comfortable to input () on shell
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2014-07-08T06:28:17Z BAMbanda: zRecursive, i wannagive it a shot, seems interesting
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2014-07-08T08:28:30Z jusss: http://codepad.org/5bB4tZwk     how to fix it ?
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2014-07-08T18:07:17Z nihilatus: jusss: http://codepad.org/iRo9n7On
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2014-07-08T18:29:34Z hjolt: nihilatus: Why mutate a and b? You could just pass them to each iteration
2014-07-08T18:31:47Z oleo: must be mutant ninja turtle!
2014-07-08T18:31:49Z oleo: lol
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2014-07-09T15:35:37Z jusss: which impletment is good? mit/gnu scheme is good ?
2014-07-09T15:44:21Z pjdelport: jusss: http://wingolog.org/archives/2013/01/07/an-opinionated-guide-to-scheme-implementations ?
2014-07-09T15:44:21Z rudybot: http://tinyurl.com/b3fjhzx
2014-07-09T15:45:59Z jusss: pjdelport: sorry to ask this question
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2014-07-09T15:46:33Z pjdelport: jusss: No, it's a fine question, but "good" depends a bit on what you want to achieve. :)
2014-07-09T15:46:52Z pjdelport: For learning, many Schemes will do; MIT Scheme is good, Racket is good.
2014-07-09T15:48:14Z jusss: pjdelport: which one you use ?
2014-07-09T15:48:20Z pjb: jusss: I like bigloo.  mit scheme is nice (notably to run sicp code, but it has difficulties to compile on some recent systems).
2014-07-09T15:49:06Z pjdelport: jusss: I use Scheme more for experimenting and playing around in than serious development; I usually have several implementations installed.
2014-07-09T15:49:54Z pjb: jusss: notice you can also use pseudo-scheme, implemented in Common Lisp (it's a r4rs, good enough for quick experimental expressions when you already have a CL REPL at hand).
2014-07-09T15:50:13Z pjdelport: jusss: I find Chicken nice.
2014-07-09T15:50:27Z jusss: pjdelport: i see
2014-07-09T15:51:26Z jusss: pjdelport: i will try plt scheme
2014-07-09T15:51:42Z jusss: my poor english
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2014-07-09T18:10:21Z liftM: hi
2014-07-09T18:11:17Z liftM: I never fully understood continuations, but Python has yield() and when I read about it, I instantly thought: hey, so we're returning to that continuation
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2014-07-09T18:12:16Z liftM: it's just saving the instruction pointer and the stack? something like that I think
2014-07-09T18:12:56Z liftM: I wonder why they never try to teach what a continuation is, by giving its low-level working
2014-07-09T18:13:02Z liftM: in assembly for example
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2014-07-09T18:15:01Z liftM: am I making sense at all?
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2014-07-09T18:41:29Z pjdelport: liftM: Trying to explain continuations in terms of low-level machinery is missing the point, really. Continuations are fundamentally a functional concept, and don't make sense outside of that language.
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2014-07-09T18:42:28Z ijp: moreover, there are multiple ways to implement continuations, and you don't want users to think continuations always mean stack copying
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2014-07-09T18:43:00Z pjdelport: It's like trying to explain closures in terms of a particular implementation technique: it doesn't give you any insight into closures in general until you understand what abstraction the different implementation techniques have in common.
2014-07-09T18:43:09Z pjdelport: Right.
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2014-07-09T19:10:18Z liftM: so, you say that in low-level terms, there are other possible implementations than saving the PC and the stack?
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2014-07-09T19:24:00Z z0d: liftM: IMO you should just try to understand continuations in high-level concepts, rather than in assembly level
2014-07-09T19:24:54Z liftM: okay. be back in a bit
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2014-07-10T05:15:56Z KrazyCod3r: Hey, is Sicp is supposed to be easy to read ?
2014-07-10T05:16:56Z pyro-: dunno what that means KrazyCod3r
2014-07-10T05:17:02Z pyro-: depends on your background
2014-07-10T05:17:28Z KrazyCod3r: pyro-: I am just struggling to understand what it means by each sentence
2014-07-10T05:18:03Z KrazyCod3r: pyro-: English is my second language btw
2014-07-10T05:21:33Z pyro-: it doesnt assume you know scheme, functional prgramming, or how to implement a programming language. it teaches the basics of all of those. many of the examples do assume a bit of (say, highschool level) mathematics
2014-07-10T05:22:03Z pyro-: KrazyCod3r: yes, some of the sentences are quite dense
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2014-07-10T05:22:08Z pyro-: there's not a lot of wasted words
2014-07-10T05:22:28Z pyro-: personally, i went through it slowly over a few months, doing the excersizes
2014-07-10T05:23:03Z pyro-: i don't find the english hard to understand, but some of the concepts did make me think
2014-07-10T05:23:11Z KrazyCod3r: Well
2014-07-10T05:23:15Z KrazyCod3r: One second
2014-07-10T05:23:42Z KrazyCod3r: I read 8 pages in half a day
2014-07-10T05:23:45Z KrazyCod3r: how good is that ? xD
2014-07-10T05:23:49Z KrazyCod3r: how slow*
2014-07-10T05:24:15Z KrazyCod3r: Sorry, not 8, it's 15 actually
2014-07-10T05:24:15Z pyro-: KrazyCod3r: that's like asking how many lines of code should the ideal program have -- totally beside the point
2014-07-10T05:24:34Z pyro-: as long as you're understanding it, its all good. why race?
2014-07-10T05:25:08Z KrazyCod3r: Okay so I had some troubles understanding 1.1.3
2014-07-10T05:25:18Z KrazyCod3r: Evaluating Combinations
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2014-07-10T05:26:19Z KrazyCod3r: I did understand how the interpeter do it, but I didn't catch an algorithm out
2014-07-10T05:26:38Z KrazyCod3r: 1. Evaluate the subexpressions of the combination. 2. Apply the procedure that is the value of the lemost subexpression (the operator) to the arguments that are the values of the other subexpressions (the operands).
2014-07-10T05:26:57Z KrazyCod3r: So that's the procedure
2014-07-10T05:26:57Z pyro-: KrazyCod3r: the order of those things happening is discussed later
2014-07-10T05:27:04Z KrazyCod3r: Okay good
2014-07-10T05:27:31Z KrazyCod3r: I just want to be sure to know am not missing any thing
2014-07-10T05:27:53Z pyro-: you should already know that, in scheme, #1 happens before #2
2014-07-10T05:28:26Z KrazyCod3r: Yeah I do understand this point
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2014-07-10T05:29:34Z KrazyCod3r: pyro-: Thanks for clearing that up
2014-07-10T05:31:39Z pyro-: KrazyCod3r: more detail than that, and some explanation of the implications, is found in 1.1.5,  then chapter 4 gives a complete algorithm
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2014-07-10T05:33:07Z pyro-: KrazyCod3r: be sure to do the excersizes
2014-07-10T05:34:22Z KrazyCod3r: pyro-: Alright, I will !
2014-07-10T05:34:26Z pyro-: i should correct myself, "program", rather than algorithm, becuase it may not terminate
2014-07-10T05:34:49Z pyro-: :-)
2014-07-10T05:35:17Z KrazyCod3r: Do we write in scheme a program that acts as an interpeter ?
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2014-07-10T05:35:30Z pyro-: yes.
2014-07-10T05:35:43Z KrazyCod3r: Omg, that will be exciting :D
2014-07-10T05:35:50Z pyro-: an interpreter for scheme itself
2014-07-10T05:36:10Z KrazyCod3r: so an interpeter for scheme written in scheme ?
2014-07-10T05:36:13Z pyro-: :-)
2014-07-10T05:36:28Z pyro- -> back to work
2014-07-10T05:36:35Z KrazyCod3r: Alright, later !
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2014-07-10T21:38:22Z gabnex: hello. what lisp is most functional (as in leaning toward the functional programming side, not bein the least dysfunctional :) )
2014-07-10T21:38:27Z gabnex: scheme, clojure? some other?
2014-07-10T21:38:45Z gabnex: (I asked in #clojure too, so why not in here as well)
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2014-07-10T21:40:20Z pygospa: gabnex: Maybe I don't get the question, but what Lisp dialect _isn't_ functional (as in functional programming)?
2014-07-10T21:40:46Z antoszka: gabnex: You can write in a functional style in any of them, though Clojure people may argue, that their language design tends (or forces you) to produce most functional-style code.
2014-07-10T21:41:00Z antoszka: pygospa: I'd say *all* of them aren't.
2014-07-10T21:41:19Z antoszka: pygospa: If you think of functional, say, the Haskell way.
2014-07-10T21:41:22Z gabnex: pygospa I don't know common lisp but i have heard people say that it doesn't lean on the functional programming side much
2014-07-10T21:41:40Z antoszka: It does not.
2014-07-10T21:41:46Z ijp: gabnex: you can make a reasonable case for either clojure or scheme
2014-07-10T21:41:57Z ijp: I don't think it matters either way
2014-07-10T21:42:50Z antoszka: You can, just as well (if you wish) write in functional style in Common Lisp.
2014-07-10T21:44:12Z ijp: there is a certain subspecies of common lisper that is vehemently anti-functional
2014-07-10T21:45:00Z antoszka: http://letoverlambda.com/index.cl/guest/chap5.html#sec_1
2014-07-10T21:45:02Z antoszka: like this? :)
2014-07-10T21:45:13Z ijp: I didn't want to name names, but that is exactly who I was thinking of
2014-07-10T21:45:26Z antoszka: Well, the guy has some interesting arguments.
2014-07-10T21:45:45Z antoszka: gabnex: have a look at that chapter (linked above). Good food for thought.
2014-07-10T21:45:53Z ijp: antoszka: I didn't think so
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2014-07-10T21:46:31Z ijp: gabnex: what do you hope to achieve by learning that $foo is more functional than $bar?
2014-07-10T21:46:36Z ijp: gone
2014-07-10T21:46:44Z antoszka: lol
2014-07-10T21:46:46Z ijp goes back in his cave
2014-07-10T21:46:53Z antoszka: I like that flavour of IRC users.
2014-07-10T21:47:24Z antoszka: Judging by his 'ping timeout' he didn't receive most our latest messages either.
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2014-07-10T21:49:13Z pygospa: antoszka: That's an interesting link. Thanks. I have to say I never worked with Common Lisp, I'm just familiar with scheme/racket and recently discovered clojure. And yeah, of course you can do any other paradigm with scheme (at school our professor used scheme to introduce us to OOP. THAT was horrible :D ).
2014-07-10T21:49:33Z antoszka: Hehe.
2014-07-10T21:49:46Z antoszka: OOP is horrible whichever language you do it in.
2014-07-10T21:50:09Z gabnex: antoszka why? :)
2014-07-10T21:50:24Z gabnex: I come from OOP languages, and I want to get my feet wet in both FP and lisp
2014-07-10T21:50:30Z pygospa: I'd say, that's a religious question. I started with Java and then I stumbled upon Smalltalk and in Smalltalk I started loving OOP
2014-07-10T21:50:38Z antoszka: I have a suspicion/intuition it's the biggest hoax in history of CS.
2014-07-10T21:50:49Z antoszka: Yeah, maybe Smalltalk.
2014-07-10T21:50:51Z ijp rolls eyes
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2014-07-10T21:51:17Z pygospa: Arguable, everything except smalltalk (with maybe the exception of a bit of Ruby) isn't really OOP :D
2014-07-10T21:51:34Z antoszka: ...And CLOS :)
2014-07-10T21:51:39Z antoszka: (in a different way)
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2014-07-10T21:53:38Z antoszka: gabnex: I'd rather see that lisps (be it scheme/common lisp/whatever) allow you to distance yourself from a particular paradigm and discover the multitude there is.
2014-07-10T21:53:53Z antoszka: Without any particular fondness of functional.
2014-07-10T21:54:30Z antoszka: Well, maybe some.
2014-07-10T21:55:39Z gabnex: ah I see
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2014-07-10T21:58:43Z antoszka: You might also see that OOP in most languages is just one of the possible uses of closures (which have other enlightening uses, that I'm probably blind to anyway).
2014-07-10T21:58:57Z antoszka: And nothing special at that.
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2014-07-10T22:01:09Z gabnex: antoszka you can implement oop with a closure?
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2014-07-10T22:03:00Z gabnex: closure = lambda?
2014-07-10T22:03:56Z antoszka: no
2014-07-10T22:04:04Z antoszka: a "let over lambda" :)
2014-07-10T22:04:16Z antoszka: (as in the title of the book i've linked to previously)
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2014-07-10T22:04:56Z antoszka: here's some discussion of closures vs oop: http://c2.com/cgi/wiki?ClosuresAndObjectsAreEquivalent
2014-07-10T22:05:20Z gabnex: i used lambdas in python and c#, that is the most functional programming i have done so far
2014-07-10T22:06:21Z gabnex: cool i'll read it
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2014-07-10T22:16:48Z DrDuck|phone: If I make two packages within one package in scheme. Say, a polynomial package that contains sparse and dense polynomial packages within it, i'll need to interface those inner packages to the outer package in order for it to work wouldn't I?
2014-07-10T22:20:21Z DrDuck|phone: All I have is pencil and paper right now. No computer :(
2014-07-10T22:20:36Z DrDuck|phone: I think the answer is yes, right?
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2014-07-10T22:35:26Z gabnex: how functional is python compared to lisps?
2014-07-10T22:35:44Z gabnex: scheme in particular
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2014-07-10T22:40:38Z DrDuck|phone: So the answer was yes
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2014-07-10T22:43:19Z antoszka: gabnex: having broken lambdas, probably not very
2014-07-10T22:44:33Z gabnex: hehe
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2014-07-10T23:01:36Z DrDuck|phone: Wait a minute. So if objects and closures are the same. What have I been making in 2.4 and 2.5 of sicp? Are entities from these number packages for the generic arithmetic system closures or objects?
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2014-07-11T15:38:32Z jusss: help!  http://paste.ubuntu.com/7780707/
2014-07-11T15:38:54Z jusss: variable output is unbound
2014-07-11T15:39:10Z jusss: is not bound
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2014-07-11T16:33:31Z nisstyre: jusss: set! does not bind a variable
2014-07-11T16:33:42Z nisstyre: it will fail if the thing you try to set to is not bound
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2014-07-11T16:34:01Z nisstyre: you have to bind it, you can do that with let or just by making it a parameter
2014-07-11T16:34:18Z nisstyre: in this case looks like you want to make it a parameter
2014-07-11T16:35:18Z nisstyre: actually you might want let here
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2014-07-11T16:35:29Z nisstyre: yeah, I would bind it with let
2014-07-11T16:36:43Z jusss: nisstyre: what about this http://paste.ubuntu.com/7780842/
2014-07-11T16:41:02Z jusss: (set! output (cons ... output)) doesn't bind ?
2014-07-11T16:41:32Z jusss: i'm so confused...
2014-07-11T16:42:09Z Riastradh: If the variable OUTPUT doesn't exist, SET! doesn't make it exist.  You need to use LET, DEFINE, LAMBDA, or similar to make it exist.
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2014-07-11T16:43:03Z Riastradh: Existence depends on where in the program text you wrote it.  If you do (let ((output 0)) (f)), that doesn't make a variable named OUTPUT exist in the definition of F -- it exists only within the LET.
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2014-07-11T16:43:54Z jusss: lexical scope ?
2014-07-11T16:44:28Z jusss: i make a mistake...
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2014-07-11T16:48:53Z jusss: this is another mistake http://paste.ubuntu.com/7780960/
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2014-07-11T16:49:14Z jusss: output is '()
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2014-07-11T16:56:00Z nisstyre: jusss: yes this is lexical scope
2014-07-11T16:56:46Z nisstyre: jusss: I would first give your functions more descriptive names than f and p
2014-07-11T16:57:15Z nisstyre: jusss: which part outputs '() and why do you expect it to do something else?
2014-07-11T16:58:53Z jusss: nisstyre: output should be changed in f, so why it's still '() ?
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2014-07-11T16:59:38Z jusss: nisstyre: if output can be return in f, then it's not '()
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2014-07-11T17:00:32Z nisstyre: jusss: you're not changing the same value you passed into the function
2014-07-11T17:01:02Z nisstyre: er, actually that's not exactly what I wanted to say
2014-07-11T17:01:09Z jusss: ...
2014-07-11T17:01:42Z nisstyre: jusss: if you do (define (f a) (set! a 4)) then you're just changing what a holds in the function f
2014-07-11T17:02:59Z leppie: rudybot: (set! weekend #t)
2014-07-11T17:02:59Z rudybot: leppie: your sandbox is ready
2014-07-11T17:02:59Z rudybot: leppie: error: set!: assignment disallowed; <NEWLINE>  cannot set variable before its definition <NEWLINE>   variable: weekend <NEWLINE>   in module: 'program
2014-07-11T17:03:17Z nisstyre: jusss: if you did something like (define (f a) (set-car! a 5)) and then (define a '(4)) (f a) then a = '(5)
2014-07-11T17:03:26Z nisstyre: I know that seems confusing
2014-07-11T17:03:46Z nisstyre: you will understand it when you get to know how variable binding works though
2014-07-11T17:09:32Z ijp: nisstyre: except that's actually undefined
2014-07-11T17:09:50Z ijp: or more correctly, defined not to do that, but fuck the standard
2014-07-11T17:09:50Z nisstyre: ijp: ah my bad
2014-07-11T17:09:55Z nisstyre: I know set-car! is not a good idea
2014-07-11T17:10:11Z nisstyre: ijp: okay, then that's Guile's behaviour
2014-07-11T17:10:18Z ijp: '(4) => (list 4) </pedantry>
2014-07-11T17:10:35Z ijp: nisstyre: actually, guile is even crazier than that
2014-07-11T17:10:41Z ijp: but let's not go there
2014-07-11T17:11:33Z nisstyre: ijp: I would have used racket but they moved that stuff to the mpair module
2014-07-11T17:11:56Z leppie: ijp: much be wingo's javascript influence ;p (j/k)
2014-07-11T17:12:17Z ijp: guile will behave correctly eventually
2014-07-11T17:12:29Z jusss: (define (f a) (set! a 4)) (let ((b 2)) (f b) b) return 2
2014-07-11T17:12:39Z ijp: jusss: as it should
2014-07-11T17:12:47Z nisstyre: ijp: set-car! is supposed to mutate the left element of a pair though right?
2014-07-11T17:13:06Z ijp: nisstyre: non-literal pairs, yes
2014-07-11T17:13:13Z nisstyre: ijp: oh I see your point then
2014-07-11T17:13:16Z nisstyre: fair enough
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2014-07-11T17:14:30Z nisstyre: jusss: if you prefix that with rudybot: then he will run it
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2014-07-11T17:15:20Z jusss: (define (f a) (set! a 4) a) (let ((b 2)) (f (f b)))
2014-07-11T17:15:46Z nisstyre: rudybot: (define (f a) (set! a 4) (let ((b 2)) (f (f b))))
2014-07-11T17:15:46Z rudybot: nisstyre: your sandbox is ready
2014-07-11T17:15:46Z rudybot: nisstyre: Done.
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2014-07-11T17:15:54Z nisstyre: rudybot: (f 4)
2014-07-11T17:15:55Z rudybot: nisstyre: error: evaluator: terminated (out-of-memory)
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2014-07-11T17:16:49Z ijp: nisstyre: one of your parens has drifted all the way to the left
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2014-07-11T17:16:58Z nisstyre: oops
2014-07-11T17:17:31Z nisstyre: I did read that wrong >.>
2014-07-11T17:17:45Z nisstyre: I really need syntax highlighting in weechat
2014-07-11T17:19:05Z ijp: s/left/right/
2014-07-11T17:19:12Z nisstyre: rudybot: (define (f a) (set! a 4) (displayln a)) (let ((b 2)) (f (f b)))
2014-07-11T17:19:14Z rudybot: nisstyre: (test-begin (check-true #t) (displayln "passed"))
2014-07-11T17:19:25Z nisstyre: uh
2014-07-11T17:19:31Z leppie: lol
2014-07-11T17:19:40Z nisstyre: should that have happened?
2014-07-11T17:20:05Z leppie: nisstyre: that was just a random reply to nonsense syntax ;p
2014-07-11T17:20:11Z nisstyre: oh I see
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2014-07-11T17:20:19Z nisstyre: but that is valid Racket afaict
2014-07-11T17:20:20Z ijp: nisstyre: rudybot doesn't handle multiple forms at once unless you say eval
2014-07-11T17:20:24Z nisstyre: got it
2014-07-11T17:20:42Z nisstyre: I cba to try again, you get the idea jusss
2014-07-11T17:20:49Z leppie: ijp: actually, it is has unabalanced parenthesis
2014-07-11T17:21:15Z leppie: damn, I wrote too much scheme in notepad
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2014-07-11T17:21:46Z leppie: oh no! I have been spoilt
2014-07-11T17:22:33Z nisstyre: leppie: the parens look fine to me
2014-07-11T17:22:59Z leppie: nisstyre: what ijp said
2014-07-11T17:23:01Z nisstyre: I don't have paren highlighting here though
2014-07-11T17:23:15Z nisstyre: leppie: yeah fair nuff
2014-07-11T17:23:22Z leppie: rudybot: (begin (define (f a) (set! a 4) (displayln a)) (let ((b 2)) (f (f b))))
2014-07-11T17:23:22Z rudybot: leppie: ; stdout: "4\n4\n"
2014-07-11T17:23:28Z jusss: nisstyre: i know the reason now , thx
2014-07-11T17:23:35Z nisstyre: leppie: in these cases I keep an internal stack in my head
2014-07-11T17:23:43Z nisstyre: sometimes it gets messed up
2014-07-11T17:23:57Z leppie: nisstyre: good memories :)
2014-07-11T17:24:41Z jusss: (define (f a) (set! b (+ a 1)) b)  (let ((b 2)) (f b)) ->3 (let ((b 2)) (f b) b)->2 (let ((b 2)) (f (f b)))->4
2014-07-11T17:25:46Z nisstyre: jusss: b would be unbound in f
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2014-07-11T17:27:30Z jusss: the return value of the fuction in let cann't change the variable in let ,but the return value can be receive by anonther fuction in let as another fuction's parameter
2014-07-11T17:27:43Z jusss: my poor english,
2014-07-11T17:28:36Z nisstyre: jusss: what's happening is that the variables you use in f depend on the place where it was defined, not where it is called
2014-07-11T17:29:05Z nisstyre: jusss: so if you moved the definition into the body of a let, then the variables bound in the let can be used in the function
2014-07-11T17:29:40Z nisstyre: jusss: also yeah you can return the new value
2014-07-11T17:29:49Z nisstyre: that is right
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2014-07-11T17:30:47Z nisstyre: jusss: it's called composition
2014-07-11T17:30:53Z nisstyre: you composed f with itself
2014-07-11T17:31:00Z nisstyre: (f (f x))
2014-07-11T17:31:56Z jusss: nisstyre: the function cann't change the variable of the let body, is that right ?
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2014-07-11T17:33:04Z nisstyre: jusss: depends what you mean
2014-07-11T17:33:07Z nisstyre: you can do this http://codepad.org/eiA31pDb
2014-07-11T17:34:09Z nisstyre: jusss: notice that I'm changing the a in the let, it's not a parameter
2014-07-11T17:34:12Z nisstyre: so it works
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2014-07-11T17:36:35Z jusss: nisstyre: i see
2014-07-11T17:37:40Z nisstyre: jusss: if I changed line 3 to (define (f x a) then I would be changing a different a
2014-07-11T17:37:47Z nisstyre: the one bound as a parameter of f
2014-07-11T17:37:50Z jusss: (let ((a 3)) (define (f x) (set! a x)) (f 2) a)->2 (define (f x) (set! a x)) (let ((a 3))(f 2) a)->3
2014-07-11T17:38:08Z nisstyre: jusss: nope
2014-07-11T17:38:26Z nisstyre: jusss: remember what I said about what variables you can use depending on where the function is defined?
2014-07-11T17:38:50Z nisstyre: you can't lift out the function definition from the let like that
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2014-07-11T17:45:14Z jusss: nisstyre: my brother call me now , i have to go, thank you very much, bye
2014-07-11T17:45:28Z nisstyre: no problem
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2014-07-12T02:19:42Z mejja: rudybot:  Who will win the 2014 world cup?
2014-07-12T02:19:42Z rudybot: mejja: All the propaganda here for the world cup used bushmen and lions.
2014-07-12T02:20:18Z ijp: rudybot: nah, the australians and english are out
2014-07-12T02:20:19Z rudybot: ijp: by “at the first-world level” do you mean the same degree of wasteful inefficient overconsumption as Australians, Europeans, and USA?
2014-07-12T02:20:55Z ijp: rudybot: I'm not going to sit here and be lectured by a hypocritical computer process!
2014-07-12T02:20:56Z rudybot: ijp: is lectured otherwise
2014-07-12T02:25:54Z alpha123: rudybot: Wait, are you actually a bot?
2014-07-12T02:25:54Z rudybot: alpha123: You exchanged identities with a bot.
2014-07-12T02:26:37Z alpha123: Hm, I almost didn't notice at first.
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2014-07-12T02:29:17Z ijp: alpha123: how do we know you're not a bot?
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2014-07-12T02:30:41Z alpha123: ijp: We know I'm not a bot?
2014-07-12T02:31:59Z ijp: rudybot: (human? 'alpha123)
2014-07-12T02:31:59Z rudybot: ijp: ; Value: #f
2014-07-12T02:33:42Z alpha123: Hm, I guess that settles it.
2014-07-12T02:33:48Z alpha123: rudybot: Hello brother.
2014-07-12T02:33:49Z rudybot: alpha123: my brother uses emacs for C++ professionally
2014-07-12T02:34:02Z alpha123: No, he actually uses vim, you numbskull. >_<
2014-07-12T02:34:21Z alpha123: *and* doesn't use C++. Sometimes I doubt you really know me.
2014-07-12T02:35:14Z pyro-_: alpha123: he was talking about his other brother
2014-07-12T02:35:28Z alpha123: pyro-_: We don't have another brother. >:(
2014-07-12T02:35:45Z pyro-_: alpha123: oh, they haven't told you?
2014-07-12T02:36:06Z alpha123: ...No? Uh oh....
2014-07-12T02:36:13Z pyro-_: :D
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2014-07-12T02:38:29Z zwer: rudybot for what OS does he writes software?
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2014-07-12T04:21:35Z jusss: http://codepad.org/2TaHdcK4
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2014-07-12T04:26:51Z pjdelport: jusss: Did you mean (define (b) ...) ?
2014-07-12T04:27:21Z jusss: pjdelport: yes
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2014-07-12T04:29:38Z jusss: (define count (let ((n 0)) (lambda () (set! n (+ n 1)) n)))
2014-07-12T04:30:00Z jusss: (define (count) (let ((n 0)) (set! n (+ n 1)) n))
2014-07-12T04:30:14Z jusss: it's different?
2014-07-12T04:31:34Z jusss: and why?
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2014-07-12T04:38:48Z ijp: in the second case, the let is local to the lambda and "created" each time the lambda is run
2014-07-12T04:40:21Z ijp: in the first case, it encloses the lambda and so is "closed over" by the lambda when it is created and returned
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2014-07-12T04:44:59Z jusss: "encloses the lambada" , don't understand ,
2014-07-12T04:45:46Z zacts: hi
2014-07-12T04:46:53Z ijp: jusss: what does (let ((x 3)) x) do?
2014-07-12T04:47:31Z jusss: ijp: return 3?
2014-07-12T04:48:36Z ijp: right, it binds x to 3 in the body of the let, which happens to be x, and so returns 3
2014-07-12T04:49:02Z ijp: jusss: okay, now how about (let ((x 3)) (lambda () x)) ?
2014-07-12T04:50:32Z jusss: ijp: procedure.
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2014-07-12T04:51:04Z ijp: and what does that procedure do?
2014-07-12T04:51:55Z jusss: return x? i don't know... confused
2014-07-12T04:52:48Z ijp: right, it returns the x in the environment where the procedure was created
2014-07-12T04:53:33Z ijp: which happens to always be 3
2014-07-12T04:55:15Z ijp: jusss: now, what does (let ((x (begin (display "foo") 3))) (lambda () x)) do?
2014-07-12T04:56:14Z jusss: ijp: i still understand why it return a procedure? (let ((x 3)) (lambda () x))
2014-07-12T04:56:28Z ijp: jusss: because (lambda () x) creates a procedure
2014-07-12T04:56:47Z ijp: that's what lambda does
2014-07-12T04:56:56Z ijp: rudybot: (lambda (x) x)
2014-07-12T04:56:56Z rudybot: ijp: ; Value: #<procedure>
2014-07-12T04:57:21Z ijp: rudybot: ((lambda (x) x) 3)
2014-07-12T04:57:21Z rudybot: ijp: ; Value: 3
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2014-07-12T04:57:24Z jusss: ijp: (let ((x 3)) ((lambda () x))) return 3
2014-07-12T04:57:37Z ijp: yes it does, can you tell me why?
2014-07-12T04:58:26Z jusss: ijp: (lambda () x) is a define? ((lambda () x)) is a call ? my poor english
2014-07-12T04:58:56Z ijp: (lambda () x) is a procedure; it is not a definition
2014-07-12T04:59:18Z ijp: ((lambda () x)) calls the procedure (lambda () x) with no arguments
2014-07-12T04:59:19Z jusss: what's a procedure?
2014-07-12T04:59:38Z ijp: jusss: other languages call them functions, or sometimes methods
2014-07-12T05:00:11Z ijp: these are the basic concepts of scheme, where are you learning it from?
2014-07-12T05:00:52Z jusss: ijp: the website...
2014-07-12T05:00:59Z ijp: which website?
2014-07-12T05:02:11Z jusss: ijp: not professional website. just a blog.
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2014-07-12T05:05:14Z ijp: well, without knowing what it is, I can't directly comment on its quality, but I don't think it has been very helpful for you
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2014-07-12T05:05:41Z jusss: i see
2014-07-12T05:08:22Z ijp: you might try something more along the lines of http://www.htdp.org/
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2014-07-12T05:08:52Z ijp: anyway, I'm knackered. see you around
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2014-07-12T12:57:01Z DrDuck: Ya know, I haven't used memq since it was introduced in mid chapter 2 of SICP. I'm at the end of chapter 2 now, and I don't know if I could think of any uses for it.
2014-07-12T12:57:11Z DrDuck: Is this a construct used often in Scheme?
2014-07-12T12:58:20Z oleo: is it a member of the list then get me that member (the first instance which is found)
2014-07-12T12:58:37Z oleo: well it gets all the rest too ofc...
2014-07-12T12:58:41Z DrDuck: Yes.
2014-07-12T12:58:42Z oleo: not in isolation..
2014-07-12T12:59:19Z oleo: maybe you'll find a use with time....
2014-07-12T13:02:00Z fizzie: If you want a simple set and don't mind the O(n) implications.
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2014-07-12T13:07:27Z fizzie: E.g. for a (define (foo? ch) (memq ch some-list-of-characters)) if you want a concisely written predicate to test if a character is something-or-another.
2014-07-12T13:08:35Z DrDuck: The end part of SICP is really taking much longer than expected.
2014-07-12T13:08:45Z DrDuck: The end part of chapter2*.
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2014-07-12T18:58:01Z zacts: hi schemers
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2014-07-12T18:59:14Z oleo: sup
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2014-07-13T03:58:34Z zacts: hi, so I'm working on modifying a vim plugin to indent scheme exactly like emacs
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2014-07-13T04:34:13Z GGMethos: zacts: I would be very interested in that actually.
2014-07-13T04:34:21Z zacts: GGMethos:
2014-07-13T04:34:23Z zacts: hey
2014-07-13T04:34:36Z GGMethos: hello
2014-07-13T04:34:45Z zacts: GGMethos: I'm at the brainstorming stage now, but I'm thinking about modifying either of these plugins:
2014-07-13T04:35:11Z zacts: just a sec, my firefox is still opening, I'm on a slow laptop
2014-07-13T04:35:12Z zacts: :p
2014-07-13T04:35:35Z zacts: https://github.com/guns/vim-clojure-static
2014-07-13T04:35:46Z zacts: ^ this one is for clojure, I would modify it for (scheme)
2014-07-13T04:36:23Z zacts: http://www.vim.org/scripts/script.php?script_id=2951
2014-07-13T04:36:33Z zacts: ^ this one is for common lisp, I would modify it for (scheme)
2014-07-13T04:36:39Z zacts: --
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2014-07-13T04:52:02Z GGMethos: looks like the common lisp one would be more useful
2014-07-13T04:52:24Z zacts: yeah
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2014-07-13T05:08:31Z jusss: help! http://paste.ubuntu.com/7787690/
2014-07-13T05:09:23Z jusss: invalid context for definition (define p ...) at line 12
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2014-07-13T05:21:58Z jusss: http://codepad.org/cclmrLuQ
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2014-07-13T13:16:37Z DrDuck: Do you guys think Scheme is a good language to do CLRS in?
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2014-07-13T13:17:57Z z0d: DrDuck: introduction to algorithms?
2014-07-13T13:18:05Z DrDuck: z0d: Yes.
2014-07-13T13:18:43Z z0d: I haven't read that one
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2014-07-13T13:28:45Z jusss: help!  http://paste.ubuntu.com/7789178/
2014-07-13T13:31:49Z z0d: you are supposed to fix indentation
2014-07-13T13:31:55Z z0d: what editor are you using?
2014-07-13T13:32:08Z jusss: vim
2014-07-13T13:33:10Z jusss: tab is two char in my vim
2014-07-13T13:36:08Z jusss: counld you tell me where I'm wrong?
2014-07-13T13:38:27Z z0d: what are you trying to do?
2014-07-13T13:39:09Z jusss: input "hello" output "ifmmp"
2014-07-13T13:40:34Z z0d: why are you using so many imperative forms?
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2014-07-13T13:42:09Z z0d: you can just take the word char-by-char, and return the new char and the make it a string
2014-07-13T13:42:36Z z0d: so basically, I'd make a new procedure which only return the "new" character
2014-07-13T13:43:14Z jusss: can i make a procedure in a procedure?
2014-07-13T13:43:20Z z0d: yes, you can
2014-07-13T13:43:42Z z0d: something like: (define (shift-letter char num) ...)
2014-07-13T13:44:11Z z0d: so you can call it with (shift-letter "d" 2) and it returns "f"
2014-07-13T13:44:35Z z0d: I mean \#d
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2014-07-13T13:48:17Z jusss: z0d: http://codepad.org/VpthwkUk
2014-07-13T13:48:39Z jusss: z0d: closure in closure
2014-07-13T13:48:54Z jusss: z0d: my poor english
2014-07-13T13:55:23Z z0d: let me rewrite l() for you
2014-07-13T13:58:42Z z0d: ah, Racket takes ages to install
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2014-07-13T14:00:03Z jusss: z0d: http://paste.ubuntu.com/7789323/
2014-07-13T14:01:39Z jusss: z0d: change the set! or let position it is right , but i don't know why?
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2014-07-13T14:10:29Z z0d: jusss: take a look at this:
2014-07-13T14:11:00Z z0d: jusss: http://paste.lisp.org/display/143156
2014-07-13T14:11:39Z z0d: you can add MOD to protect against too large numbers
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2014-07-13T14:12:13Z z0d: > (shift-word "hello" 1)
2014-07-13T14:12:15Z z0d: "ifmmp"
2014-07-13T14:12:32Z z0d: this is more general, as you can specify the shift amount
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2014-07-13T14:15:24Z jusss: z0d: yours is better than mine
2014-07-13T14:15:50Z jusss: z0d: but i'd like to know where i'm wrong
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2014-07-14T11:58:49Z jusss: http://paste.ubuntu.com/7793165/
2014-07-14T11:59:26Z jusss: why set! is wrong, let is right?
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2014-07-14T12:10:35Z pjdelport: jusss: Generally speaking, all defines inside the body of a lambda should be floated to the start of it.
2014-07-14T12:10:49Z pjdelport: jusss: Some Scheme implementations do this automatically for you, some don't.
2014-07-14T12:11:26Z pjdelport: jusss: So in the first example, moving the (define f2 ...) before the (set! ...) should work.
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2014-07-14T12:25:33Z jusss: pjdelport: (define ..) before (set!...) in a lambda's body is a standard?
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2014-07-14T12:29:23Z pjdelport: Well, not only before set!, before anything else.
2014-07-14T12:29:28Z pyro-: rather than move (define f2 ...) above (set! v1 0), i think you could also just change it to (define v1 0)
2014-07-14T12:31:02Z pyro-: in fact, that would be better, i think
2014-07-14T12:31:06Z pjdelport: Right, probably.
2014-07-14T12:31:16Z pyro-: becuase otherwise you havent defined v1
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2014-07-14T12:31:39Z pyro-: set! ing something that hasnt been defined probably works, but it doesnt look nice
2014-07-14T12:31:56Z pyro-: but thats a different problem
2014-07-14T12:32:17Z pyro-: pjdelport is right that the bigger problem is having any forms above the define forms
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2014-07-14T12:35:25Z jusss: what it's different between define and set! ? define can make a procedure
2014-07-14T12:36:00Z pyro-: define can make a procedure
2014-07-14T12:36:07Z pyro-: and define introduces a new binding
2014-07-14T12:36:24Z pyro-: perhaps i'll write an example
2014-07-14T12:36:41Z jusss: set! cann't make a binding ?
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2014-07-14T12:37:58Z pyro-: i'm not sure what the standards say, but your not supposed to use it that way. its supposed to mutate existing bindings
2014-07-14T12:38:07Z pyro-: its not just an idle distinction
2014-07-14T12:39:23Z Riastradh: SET! can't create a variable; it only modifies the value of an existing one.
2014-07-14T12:39:29Z pyro-: if you define a global, then define a variable inside a lambda, the global variable is shadowed. outside of a call to the procedure, the global will not be affected by the new binding
2014-07-14T12:40:00Z pyro-: but is you use set! inside the lambda, the global binding will change
2014-07-14T12:40:16Z pyro-: Riastradh knows more than me ;-)
2014-07-14T12:40:25Z jusss: （define f (let ((a 0)) (lambda () a)))  which environment is the variable a bound?
2014-07-14T12:41:17Z Riastradh: Only within the LET.
2014-07-14T12:41:21Z pyro-: let creates a new environment
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2014-07-14T12:41:49Z pyro-: f, on the other hand, is added to the "current" environment
2014-07-14T12:41:59Z pyro-: lexically current
2014-07-14T12:43:41Z jusss: let creates a local environment , it's right?
2014-07-14T12:43:59Z pyro-: yes
2014-07-14T12:44:02Z pyro-: more or less
2014-07-14T12:44:11Z jusss: and only let can create a local environment?
2014-07-14T12:44:38Z pyro-: well, yes, but let is (or can be) implemented in terms of lambda
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2014-07-14T12:45:26Z pyro-: when you call a procedure, the body of the procedure is evaluated in a new environent which has the arguments added
2014-07-14T12:45:28Z jusss: define and set! just create a variable to be binding?
2014-07-14T12:46:23Z pyro-: define creates a binding from a symbol to a value, set changes an existing one. they both use the current environment, without making a new one
2014-07-14T12:46:33Z jusss: (define f (lambda () (define a 9) a)) which environment is the variable a bound?
2014-07-14T12:47:08Z pyro-: the new environment that is created when a procedure is called, that i just described
2014-07-14T12:47:26Z pyro-: thus a goes away when f returns
2014-07-14T12:47:41Z pyro-: (the binding goes away, that is)
2014-07-14T12:51:25Z jusss: it make a new environment when call a procedure?
2014-07-14T12:51:46Z pyro-: yes
2014-07-14T12:52:05Z pyro-: with the arguents added to it.
2014-07-14T12:52:19Z pyro-: then any local defines can be added to it also
2014-07-14T12:52:28Z pyro-: and it will be lost when the procedure returns
2014-07-14T12:53:05Z jusss: (define f (lambda () (define a 9) a)) , can i say (define a 9) make a new local environment ?
2014-07-14T12:53:24Z jusss: not just let can do that
2014-07-14T12:53:31Z pyro-: that is how let can be implemented in terms of lambda. in fact, only calls to procedures create new environments
2014-07-14T12:53:47Z pyro-: no
2014-07-14T12:54:06Z pyro-: the environment that already exists when f is called is used
2014-07-14T12:54:23Z pyro-: (define a 9) adds the definition for a to the existing environment
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2014-07-14T12:58:26Z jusss: pyro-: a little confused, (define a 9) don't add a to top-level environment but f is called in top-level environment,does f run in top-level environment ?or run in a new envrionment when it called
2014-07-14T12:59:22Z pyro-: the body of f "(define a 9) a" is evaluated in a new environment
2014-07-14T12:59:26Z pyro-: when called
2014-07-14T12:59:56Z pyro-: if you call (f) from the toplevel
2014-07-14T13:00:01Z pyro-: wait for it to return
2014-07-14T13:00:11Z pyro-: notice that a isn't defined
2014-07-14T13:00:11Z jusss: the new environment have a name? standard
2014-07-14T13:01:13Z pyro-: no, i don't think so. programmers refer to "local scope", but its not quite the same thing
2014-07-14T13:02:02Z pyro-: even though understanding the way environments are used is crucial, you can't access them directly in scheme (well, most of the time), so they don't really need a name
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2014-07-14T13:04:10Z pyro-: the mechanism is explained fairly well in SICP, if you're interested
2014-07-14T13:04:23Z pyro-: goodluck with your studies
2014-07-14T13:04:27Z pyro-: goodnight
2014-07-14T13:04:35Z jusss: (define f (let ((a 9)) (lambda () a)))
2014-07-14T13:04:55Z jusss: a in the new environemtn or let ?
2014-07-14T13:05:13Z pyro-: let
2014-07-14T13:05:26Z jusss: where is the let in?
2014-07-14T13:06:02Z pyro-: assuming you type that form into the top level, so we are evaluating the define in the top level environmentnt
2014-07-14T13:06:21Z pyro-: to evaluate the define form, we first evaluate the second argument (let ...
2014-07-14T13:06:29Z pyro-: let introduces a new environment
2014-07-14T13:06:38Z pyro-: containing the binding a => 9
2014-07-14T13:06:50Z pjdelport: jusss: The let itself is evaluated inside an outer environment, but it creates a new environment for the bindings that it introduces.
2014-07-14T13:07:05Z pyro-: the (lambda () a) is evaluated inside that "let environment"
2014-07-14T13:07:22Z pyro-: then f is added to the toplevel environment
2014-07-14T13:07:33Z pyro-: if we then make a call to f
2014-07-14T13:07:35Z pyro-: (f)
2014-07-14T13:07:42Z pyro-: a new environment is created
2014-07-14T13:08:05Z pyro-: but it extends the let environment, not the toplevel environment
2014-07-14T13:08:11Z pyro-: so a is available
2014-07-14T13:08:15Z pyro-: no arguments to add,
2014-07-14T13:08:26Z pyro-: so then the body "a" is evaluated in that new environment
2014-07-14T13:08:26Z jusss: let have a relation with the new environemnet ? so confused @.@
2014-07-14T13:08:43Z pyro-: jusss: environments form a tree
2014-07-14T13:08:59Z pyro-: other than the toplevel, they all have a parent
2014-07-14T13:09:25Z pyro-: when you evaluate an expression in a given environment, if a binding for a variable isnt found there, the parent environments are searched
2014-07-14T13:10:42Z pyro-: which is how shadowing works. (define a 9) inside a procedure, will shadow a global definition of a. i.e. the local version will be used for the procedure call, but when the procedure returns, we are back to the top level, so the global binding is all thats left
2014-07-14T13:10:50Z pyro-: jusss: read SICP maybe
2014-07-14T13:10:53Z pyro-: goodnight
2014-07-14T13:11:02Z jusss: goodnight
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2014-07-14T13:14:18Z pjdelport: jusss: It may be better to completely ignore the top-level environment at first.
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2014-07-14T13:14:47Z pjdelport: It's slightly special, and doesn't work the same way as Scheme environments in general.
2014-07-14T13:14:53Z jusss: pjdelport: what's the relation between the environment let created and the new environment that is created when the procedure called
2014-07-14T13:15:38Z jusss: pjdelport: (define f (let ((a 9)) (lambda () a)))
2014-07-14T13:16:40Z pjdelport: No relation; in that case, the 'let' is creating one environment (containing the 'a' binding), and the lambda is implcitly creating another (empty) environment.
2014-07-14T13:17:00Z pjdelport: The 'a' inside the lambda refers to the binding created by the let.
2014-07-14T13:17:20Z pjdelport: (that's lexical scoping in action)
2014-07-14T13:18:03Z pjdelport: jusss: It may be better to ignore all the different syntaxes, and just focus on lambda: under the hood, you can think of lambda is being the only construct that actually creates bindings.
2014-07-14T13:18:14Z pjdelport: 'let' itself is just syntax sugar for lambda.
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2014-07-14T13:19:10Z pjdelport: When you say (let ((x y)) ...) it is just a shortcut for: ((lambda (x) ...) y)
2014-07-14T13:19:50Z pjdelport: (In other words, creating a lambda of "x", and then immediately calling it with "y".)
2014-07-14T13:19:57Z pjdelport: jusss: Does that make sense?
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2014-07-14T13:20:44Z pjdelport: Similarly, if you say: (let ((x 1) (y 2)) ...), it's a shortcut for: ((lambda (x y) ...) 1 2)
2014-07-14T13:21:16Z pjdelport: The lambda is the construct that actually creates a namespaces, via its arguments.
2014-07-14T13:21:26Z pjdelport: "a namespace", even
2014-07-14T13:21:27Z jusss: pjdelport: i know let is a syntax sugar, so lambda creat a envrionment?
2014-07-14T13:21:31Z pjdelport: Yes.
2014-07-14T13:22:59Z pjdelport: Every time you call a lambda, it *binds* its arguments to the symbols (variable names) in its argument list, and then evaluates the body.
2014-07-14T13:24:01Z pjdelport: So when you say ((lambda (x y) ...) 1 2) then Scheme will bind x to 1, bind y to 2, and then evaluate the body ... with those bindings of x and y.
2014-07-14T13:25:34Z pjdelport: Every invocation of a function gets its own separate namespace, or set of bindings.
2014-07-14T13:25:40Z jusss: so what's the meaning of top-level envrionment
2014-07-14T13:26:02Z jusss: ?
2014-07-14T13:26:03Z pjdelport: The top-level environment is just a sort of default namespace.
2014-07-14T13:26:20Z pjdelport: But the exact meaning can differ from implementation to implementation.
2014-07-14T13:26:59Z pjdelport: So it's not necessarily important to worry about it: the details of what's different don't necessarily matter except for your particular implementation.
2014-07-14T13:30:52Z jusss: pjdelport: is that the environemtn let created in the environment lambda created ?
2014-07-14T13:31:45Z jusss: lambda make a environemnt , let in the lambda creat another environemnet
2014-07-14T13:33:49Z jusss: let is syntax sugar, outside lambda make a environment, inside lamda make a environment, but they have no relation ?
2014-07-14T13:41:18Z pjdelport: jusss: Right: every lambda represents a new environment, no matter how much they're nested inside each other.
2014-07-14T13:42:42Z pjdelport: jusss: So consider this: (lambda (x) (lambda (y) (+ x y))
2014-07-14T13:42:55Z pjdelport: Let's call that "add".
2014-07-14T13:44:05Z pjdelport: When you call it like "(add 2)", it will bind x to 2, and then return the body (which is the lambda that takes "y"), with x bound to 2.
2014-07-14T13:44:27Z pjdelport: So (add 2) effectively becomes: (lambda (y) (+ 2 y)
2014-07-14T13:45:02Z pjdelport: And (add 3) would become: (lambda (y) (+ 3 y)
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2014-07-14T13:45:45Z jusss: pjdelport: the variable x is not bound in envrionment lambda y created
2014-07-14T13:45:45Z pjdelport: Every time you call or invoke "add", you get a different procedure back, with a different binding of x.
2014-07-14T13:46:14Z pjdelport: Right: it's bound inside the environment that (lambda (x) ..) created.
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2014-07-14T13:47:23Z pjdelport: If you call the result of (add 2) again, then you invoke the (lambda (y) ...) procedure, and bind y.
2014-07-14T13:47:47Z pjdelport: so ((add 2) 3) becomes: (+ 2 3) which evaluates to 5
2014-07-14T13:48:08Z pjdelport: and ((add 10) 20) becomes 30, and so on.
2014-07-14T13:49:05Z jusss: pjdelport: (lambda (x) (lambda (y) (lambda (z) (+  x y)))) it can be run ?
2014-07-14T13:49:49Z pjdelport: Yes: you can have as many nested lambdas as you want.
2014-07-14T13:49:50Z jusss: pjdelport: the variable is bound in lambda x, and it can be call in lambda z ?
2014-07-14T13:49:58Z pjdelport: Yep.
2014-07-14T13:50:39Z pjdelport: So there's no artificial limit: the *entire* body of (lambda (x) ...) can "see" x.
2014-07-14T13:50:57Z jusss: it's the different between lexical and dynamic scope ?
2014-07-14T13:51:28Z pjdelport: So in the above example, the body of the lambda of x is: (lambda (y) (lambda (z) (+  x y)))
2014-07-14T13:51:32Z pjdelport: Right.
2014-07-14T13:52:02Z pjdelport: In lexical scope, like Scheme, it works like the above: the lexical nesting determines which bindings a lambda sees.
2014-07-14T13:52:14Z pjdelport: With dynamic scoping, the above would not work.
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2014-07-14T13:54:46Z jusss: pjdelport: i learn so much knowlege this time ,thank you very much
2014-07-14T13:55:44Z pjdelport: jusss: Glad I could help. :)
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2014-07-14T14:37:48Z jusss: pjdelport: i change the set! to be after define, but i still get a error , http://codepad.org/tGLULDXg
2014-07-14T14:40:15Z xyh: Ikarus ::  &message: "a definition was found where an expression was expected"
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2014-07-14T14:40:50Z vraid: jusss: http://codepad.org/aCqEj9ZN
2014-07-14T14:40:53Z xyh: just use letrec
2014-07-14T14:42:00Z vraid: jusss: you had parentheses after (lambda (word) for no reason
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2014-07-14T14:45:30Z jusss: vraid: you're right ,thx
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2014-07-14T14:48:00Z jusss: vraid: why i run (l "hi") get the result of previous result
2014-07-14T14:48:33Z jusss: vraid: (l "hi") -> ""  (l "")-> "ij"
2014-07-14T14:49:17Z leppie: jusss: stop using set!
2014-07-14T14:50:01Z offby1: stop making sense!
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2014-07-14T14:53:25Z vraid: jusss: i agree with leppie on this one, i won't even attempt to debug that code when set! is in it
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2014-07-14T14:54:45Z jusss: leppie: vraid, if set! don't be used, what can be use to give a variable value?
2014-07-14T14:55:14Z jusss: i know this make a lot of set!,
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2014-07-14T15:15:33Z vraid: jusss: let / define
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2014-07-14T15:15:47Z vraid: the idea is that you create new variables when you want to hold a new value
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2014-07-14T15:36:43Z pjdelport: jusss: It's hard to tell what that code is trying to do.
2014-07-14T15:38:10Z jusss: pjdelport: shift a char, eg, (l "hello") output "ifmmp"
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2014-07-14T15:44:57Z leppie: (define (l str) (apply string (map (lambda (c) (integer->char (add1 (char->integer c)))) (string->list str))))
2014-07-14T15:46:47Z jusss: yous is better than mine
2014-07-14T15:48:16Z pjdelport: jusss: Here's how you would approach that more idiomatically: http://codepad.org/0SUILC97
2014-07-14T15:48:55Z leppie: pjdelport: I would still prefer map or ideally string-map
2014-07-14T15:49:26Z pjdelport: leppie: Right, right, but the intent here is presumably to learn how to do it in more detail.
2014-07-14T15:49:34Z leppie: probably
2014-07-14T15:50:10Z pjdelport: jusss: But yeah, what leppie said, using map, you would instead have: (define (inc-char-list cs) (map inc-char cs))
2014-07-14T15:50:48Z leppie: and with string-map, you would only have to call (string-map inc-char "hello")
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2014-07-14T15:51:12Z pjdelport: Yup.
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2014-07-14T15:52:51Z jusss: i see
2014-07-14T16:00:23Z jusss: i will go to sleep , good night
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2014-07-14T17:57:14Z zacts: hi #scheme
2014-07-14T18:06:39Z gnomon: Hullo, zacts.
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2014-07-14T18:09:03Z Riastradh: Hi.
2014-07-14T18:09:10Z gnomon: Hi!
2014-07-14T18:09:43Z Riastradh: HI!
2014-07-14T18:11:16Z gnomon prances lackadaisically
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2014-07-14T18:12:25Z gnomon: How's it going, Riastradh?  What new and exciting adventures are whirling out in Super Riastradh Land?
2014-07-14T18:19:46Z Riastradh: Things are going OK.  I'm trying to make sure working drivers for modern graphics hardware get out in NetBSD 7, and finding that although code quality in Linux is improving, it's still pretty bad.
2014-07-14T18:20:34Z zacts: Riastradh: is this kernel level, or NetBSD's fork of x11/xorg?
2014-07-14T18:22:06Z Riastradh: Kernel.
2014-07-14T18:22:51Z Riastradh: NetBSD doesn't really have a fork of X.org or the associated libraries; it's more like some local patches that haven't been upstreamed yet.
2014-07-14T18:25:04Z gnomon: Riastradh, that is Important Work(tm)!
2014-07-14T18:25:52Z Riastradh: Apparently Linux doesn't believe in condition variables; instead you just kinda kludge up a string of atomics and memory barriers and wakes, and hope that you got it right, and then rewrite the mess in the next version of your driver because you got it wrong.
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2014-07-14T18:26:59Z gnomon facepalms
2014-07-14T18:29:12Z zacts: Riastradh: cool, I hope to eventually work on NetBSD drivers
2014-07-14T18:29:41Z zacts: is it possible to write drivers using lua?
2014-07-14T18:30:00Z Riastradh: Heh.  Not at the moment, but I'm talking with someone about just that as we speak.
2014-07-14T18:30:58Z gnomon: oooOOOooo
2014-07-14T18:31:05Z gnomon: That sounds like a lot of fun.
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2014-07-14T18:38:03Z Riastradh: But let me know if you would like help learning to write drivers in C; there's plenty of detailed reference documentation but not much big-picture introductory material.
2014-07-14T18:38:44Z nisstyre: Riastradh: I would read a book if you wrote one
2014-07-14T18:39:16Z zacts: cool, well I'm currently at the stage of learning (scheme), but C is next.
2014-07-14T18:39:37Z nisstyre: zacts: my advice: do not read online C tutorials or google results
2014-07-14T18:39:42Z nisstyre: unless the results are the standard
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2014-07-14T18:42:09Z zacts: nisstyre: indeed. I have books. k&r / C Programming a Modern Approach. And I have APUE 2nd edition
2014-07-14T18:42:14Z zacts: I also own the 4.4 BSD book
2014-07-14T18:42:22Z nisstyre: zacts: cool, the 3rd edition of APUE is nice
2014-07-14T18:42:39Z nisstyre: it covers Linux APIs
2014-07-14T18:42:45Z zacts: nisstyre: you like it? the main reason I got 2nd edition was it is a hardback book, and it cost less money.
2014-07-14T18:42:59Z nisstyre: zacts: I like what I've read of it so far yes
2014-07-14T18:43:09Z nisstyre: it's more useful because it is up to date
2014-07-14T18:43:09Z zacts: I do have free online access to the 3rd edition, so I guess I can fill in the details when I need them.
2014-07-14T18:43:14Z nisstyre: not that the original is useless
2014-07-14T18:43:24Z nisstyre: I've also got TCP/IP Illustrated vol. 1
2014-07-14T18:43:29Z nisstyre: (also a Rich Stevens book)
2014-07-14T18:44:07Z Riastradh: gnomon, how familiar are you with Lua, actually?
2014-07-14T18:44:14Z Riastradh: Specifically, the Lua implementation.
2014-07-14T18:44:25Z Riastradh: I seem to recall you've used it in the past.
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2014-07-14T19:19:47Z Fare: International Lisp Conference 2014 in Montreal, Aug 15-17 — today is last day for early bird pricing (even cheaper if you get ALU membership). I bought my ticket. Will some of you join me there?
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2014-07-14T19:42:06Z gnomon: Riastradh, I am moderately familiar with Lua.  I would not call myself an expert, but I am comfortable with the language itself, and I have a slightly lower level of comfort with its implementation.
2014-07-14T19:42:36Z Riastradh: What can you tell me about its garbage collector and how it uses the OS/application-provided memory allocator?
2014-07-14T19:44:39Z gnomon: Riastradh, to the best of my knowledge Lua is currently moving towards a generational GC; I'm not sure whether the current stable release has switched that on by default.  I don't believe I can speak with any authority to how it interacts with application-provided GC mechanisms.
2014-07-14T19:45:09Z gnomon: Riastradh, are you input-rate limited right now?  Would it be helpful if I jammed that into my brain-meats and narrated a précis for you?
2014-07-14T19:45:49Z Riastradh: In particular, I want to know whether, when an application wants to call a Lua function in a fresh state, it can preallocate everything Lua needs for the state (heap &c.) and then ask Lua never to call the OS/application allocator.
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2014-07-14T19:46:30Z Riastradh: I would guess so, but I don't have time to investigate and the person working on this doesn't know.
2014-07-14T19:47:00Z Riastradh: That sounds helpful, sure!
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2014-07-14T19:47:31Z Riastradh: Meanwhile, as we speak, I'm using another of your favourite languages, if I recall correctly -- awk!
2014-07-14T19:49:57Z Riastradh: Kinda irritated that it doesn't have bitwise operations.
2014-07-14T19:50:51Z gnomon: Yay, awk!
2014-07-14T19:51:12Z gnomon: The spec omits bitwise ops but to the best of my knowledge both gawk and mawk offer the same facility.
2014-07-14T19:51:38Z Riastradh: nawk doesn't seem to have them.
2014-07-14T19:52:23Z gnomon: It's also possible to use a facility in a BEGIN block to test the precision range of the current implementation and set up some bitwise primitives to operate within the bounds of that precision, albeit very slowly indeed.
2014-07-14T19:53:06Z Riastradh: Multiply/quotient/remainder by 2^n and subtraction will suffice for my needs.
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2014-07-14T19:53:18Z gnomon: I'm not exactly proud of that code, but I could go spelunking through the catacombs of nested disk-image backups (or just rewrite them from scratch, they were certainly simple enough) if you have a pressing need.
2014-07-14T19:56:23Z Riastradh: Although I forgot until a moment ago that it's all floating-point arithmetic, not integer arithmetic.  Heh.
2014-07-14T19:56:27Z Riastradh: That would explain why
2014-07-14T19:56:52Z Riastradh: % echo 0x7ffffffffffff 0x0 | awk '{ printf("0x%x\n", $1 + $2) }'
2014-07-14T19:56:52Z Riastradh: 0x7ffffffffffff
2014-07-14T19:56:52Z Riastradh: % echo 0x7fffffffffffff 0x0 | awk '{ printf("0x%x\n", $1 + $2) }'
2014-07-14T19:56:52Z Riastradh: 0x80000000000000
2014-07-14T19:56:59Z gnomon: Heh, yep!  (Though mawk takes some pains to use integers behind the scenes when it is able)
2014-07-14T19:58:32Z gnomon: Riastradh, the answer to your question about the Lua state seems to be at http://lua-users.org/wiki/LuaFaq under the first heading reached by searching for the string "Could Lua's memory management clash"
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2014-07-14T20:07:17Z Riastradh: Apparently numeric constants can't be written in hexadecimal in the awk source code.
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2014-07-14T20:10:24Z Riastradh: There we go, seven-hundred line C program reduced to forty lines of awk.
2014-07-14T20:10:55Z samth: Riastradh: with comprehensibility reduced by a similar factor?
2014-07-14T20:14:08Z Riastradh: Certainly not.  The awk program is quite clear.
2014-07-14T20:17:23Z gnomon: awk usually is, if it's written by a sane person!
2014-07-14T20:17:37Z gnomon: ...not to imply anything about Riastradh's sanity, that is.
2014-07-14T20:17:43Z gnomon whistles innocently
2014-07-14T20:19:16Z gnomon: Riastradh, oh, I forgot to mention that the header on that LuaFaq page directly following the one I mentioned is also pertinent to your question .
2014-07-14T20:21:36Z Riastradh: About ahead-of-time compilation?
2014-07-14T20:22:21Z gnomon: And the optioal removal of the scaffolding which exists only to support compliation at runtime, yes.
2014-07-14T20:23:08Z Riastradh: Yeah, I think the kernel Lua folks are already doing that.
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2014-07-15T04:13:36Z goglosh: hey guys, I have seen tutorials, but I haven't seen many examples to implement stuff in scheme :/
2014-07-15T04:14:21Z goglosh: where can I find nice AI applications (for example neural networks) in scheme?
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2014-07-15T04:56:00Z zacts: goglosh: have you seen the research archive on the MIT site?
2014-07-15T04:56:25Z zacts: http://publications.csail.mit.edu/
2014-07-15T04:56:56Z zacts: don't know if it will be totally what you are looking for, but there is some cool stuff in there..
2014-07-15T04:57:15Z zacts: and hi #scheme
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2014-07-15T05:12:19Z goglosh: zacts: sorry for the delay(). Thanks I'll check it out
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2014-07-15T13:42:09Z Fare: early registration deadline for the International Lisp Conference 2014 in Montreal (Aug 15-17) has been extended to July 18 — register now!
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2014-07-16T05:49:03Z jusss: which editor you ues ?
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2014-07-16T06:03:32Z alezost: jusss: emacs
2014-07-16T06:04:00Z pyro-: jusss: vi
2014-07-16T06:07:06Z jusss: i do that in my emacs config file but i still get a error http://www.cs.indiana.edu/chezscheme/emacs/#petite
2014-07-16T06:08:31Z jusss: pyro-: how to let petite scheme with vi work together?
2014-07-16T06:09:14Z pyro-: i don't know juss
2014-07-16T06:09:37Z pyro-: i save files and use the shell to run things :P
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2014-07-16T10:34:42Z zacts: I use tslime.vim
2014-07-16T10:34:48Z zacts: and tmux together
2014-07-16T10:35:13Z zacts: then I split the tmux window, and I send expressions from vim over to a repl via tslime
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2014-07-16T13:20:52Z DrDuck: Is it worth it doing the last 7 exercises of chapter 2 in SICP (2.91 - 2.97)? Do the concepts show up again later in the book? It's been a little exhausting. 2.90 took me 750 lines of code.
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2014-07-16T13:37:10Z ananna: This might be a bit of a noob question, but I've searched through the documentation and almight Google and I can't find anything to help me. I'm on OS 10.9.3 and I can execute Edwin separately from the app icon, but if I try to do it through xterm by typing scheme and so on it says that the command wasn't found
2014-07-16T13:39:00Z ananna: This is what I'm typing in: scheme -edwin -eval | I tried to do man and help but it isn't coming up
2014-07-16T13:39:07Z ananna: which is the weirdest thing as it is indeed installed
2014-07-16T13:40:49Z DrDuck: ananna: If you're looking to do SICP with Edwin, I think looking to DrRacket would probably be the best bet to get you up and running quickly.
2014-07-16T13:41:11Z ananna nods
2014-07-16T13:41:12Z DrDuck: It's worked out fine for me so far, and I'm at the end of chapter 2.
2014-07-16T13:41:44Z ananna: It's already installed, but I don't quite understand why I can't call scheme natively or from within its xterm instance
2014-07-16T13:42:50Z ananna: DrDuck: DrRacket sounds awesome though
2014-07-16T13:44:36Z DrDuck: Right. It's legacy software. Just save yourself the trouble and switch to DrRacket. Also if you're looking for another community to discuss SICP with, come on over to #symbo1ics.
2014-07-16T13:46:00Z ananna: DrDuck: Oh it's been a while since I've been there. Okay, I'll switch to DrRacket
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2014-07-16T13:49:43Z DrDuck: ananna: Good choice, and we're always happy to have new people.
2014-07-16T13:50:28Z ananna: DrDuck: I'm a friend of Quad... It's been a while since we talked though - sadly
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2014-07-16T17:21:35Z DrDuck: Anyone have any good general advice they could share for exercise 2.92 of SICP?
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2014-07-16T19:17:31Z nisstyre: DrDuck: link?
2014-07-16T19:17:49Z nisstyre: nevermind, found it
2014-07-16T19:18:00Z DrDuck: https://mitpress.mit.edu/sicp/full-text/book/book-Z-H-18.html#%_thm_2.92
2014-07-16T19:18:20Z nisstyre: DrDuck: you can use euclid's algorithm like it says
2014-07-16T19:18:41Z DrDuck: nisstyre: Not 2.93. 2.92
2014-07-16T19:18:59Z nisstyre: DrDuck: oh ok
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2014-07-16T19:19:26Z DrDuck|phone: Ping
2014-07-16T19:19:32Z nisstyre: DrDuck: how is it representing polynomials? as lists of coefficients?
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2014-07-16T19:21:23Z DrDuck: nisstyre: If you can give me a few minutes, have to get to work, I will ping you. Here is an example of my solution to 2.91, though
2014-07-16T19:21:40Z nisstyre: DrDuck: okay, I can't promise I'll be available much longer
2014-07-16T19:21:44Z DrDuck: (make-dense-polynomial 'x '(1 2 1))
2014-07-16T19:21:46Z nisstyre: I also have some work I need to do
2014-07-16T19:22:01Z nisstyre: DrDuck: okay yeah that is what I expected to see
2014-07-16T19:22:08Z DrDuck: nisstyre:  but also
2014-07-16T19:22:38Z DrDuck: (make-sparse-polynomial 'x '((2 1) (1 2) (0 1)))
2014-07-16T19:22:53Z DrDuck: nisstyre: its ok. even if you leave a few tips
2014-07-16T19:22:56Z DrDuck: i will be greatful
2014-07-16T19:22:58Z DrDuck: off to work i go
2014-07-16T19:23:01Z DrDuck: ping ya in a bit
2014-07-16T19:23:41Z nisstyre: http://www.haskell.org/haskellwiki/Blow_your_mind#Polynomials
2014-07-16T19:23:58Z nisstyre: you probably can't read that code
2014-07-16T19:24:07Z nisstyre: but it has some ideas
2014-07-16T19:24:47Z nisstyre: "Lists are ordered by increasing powers" is the key point
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2014-07-16T19:27:27Z ijp: I have a feeling that the page isn't going to live up to its title
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2014-07-16T19:40:05Z nisstyre: ijp: it won't live up to its title for you or me probably
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2014-07-16T19:40:57Z Riastradh: But to a Haskell programmer...
2014-07-16T19:40:59Z Riastradh ducks
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2014-07-16T19:52:27Z z0d: I was surprised to see that no one is working on swank-guile
2014-07-16T19:54:02Z turbofail: guile has geiser, which is the same sort of thing
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2014-07-16T20:10:51Z DrDuck|phone: nisstyre: I was told that mattern matching would help immensely but it's not introduced until chapter 4
2014-07-16T20:11:17Z nisstyre: DrDuck|phone: it helps with a lot of things yeah
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2014-07-16T20:11:28Z nisstyre: DrDuck|phone: but you can use cond, it is just more verbose
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2014-07-16T20:15:35Z turbofail: huh, i didn't think SICP covered pattern matching at all
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2014-07-16T20:19:05Z DrDuck|phone: turbofail: chapter 4 and also in the lectures
2014-07-16T20:21:04Z ijp: turbofail: it's part of the logic interpreter
2014-07-16T20:22:15Z turbofail: hm.  so it is
2014-07-16T20:26:51Z turbofail: not gonna lie i skimmed over most of chapter 4
2014-07-16T20:27:16Z turbofail: well the logic programming sectio anyway
2014-07-16T20:28:18Z nisstyre: not gonna lie I haven't read most of SICP
2014-07-16T20:29:40Z ijp tuts
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2014-07-16T20:30:17Z turbofail: i legitimately went through the first 3 chapters, and the metacircular evaluator section of chapter 4, and then got distracted making goofy toy-schemes
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2014-07-16T20:46:30Z DrDuck|phone: turbofail: what did you do for exercise 2.92. Really in need of advice.
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2014-07-16T20:49:59Z nisstyre: turbofail: the video lectures are probably more entertaining
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2014-07-16T20:58:15Z DrDuck|phone: They introduce pattern matching to redesign the symbolic differentiation system from section 2.3.2
2014-07-16T20:59:08Z DrDuck|phone: I might rewatch that after work, copy the pattern match code, and try to use it in the symbolic algebra system for 2.92
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2014-07-16T21:00:53Z turbofail: you don't really need pattern matching for that.  all you need to be able to do is identify whether a coefficient is another polynomial, or a number
2014-07-16T21:03:34Z turbofail: certainly pattern matching would make it look nicer, but it's not necessary by any means
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2014-07-16T21:11:24Z DrDuck|phone: Hmm
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2014-07-17T20:29:49Z jcowan: I've been reconsidering the question of enums for R7RS-large, and I'm thinking that enum objects of a disjoint type have advantages over symbols.  I've come up with an API that works with both kinds of enum members, but on reflection I can't quite see why someone would prefer to use a symbol rather than an object, given a macro that can automatically bind the objects to variables.
2014-07-17T20:29:54Z jcowan: Any opinions?
2014-07-17T20:33:53Z Riastradh: Don't use symbols; that's silly.
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2014-07-17T23:01:43Z names: ccl-logbot em sad0ur_ certaint1 pyro-_ ineiros_ eagleflo shadowfax LeoNerd haroldwu evhan duncanm mrowe_away turbofail pjb safety acieroid finnrobi Soft dan64 klutometis aksatac_ cataska ft akp Okasu fikusz averell waxysubs leif misv_ Guest30316 choas_ cross renopt ohama DGASAU copumpkin oldskirt_ _will_ shardz ctindall taylanub fizzie C-Keen SirDayBat poucet clog aoh twem2 micro` zbigniew eMBee Riastradh ananna edw Razz aretecode alexei kazimir42 asumu
2014-07-17T23:01:43Z names: Nshag joast jj2baile_ m4burns effy peterhil pjdelport Blkt Natch mornfall ANGRYSTEVE hjolt leb BossKonaSegwaY Sgeo DrDuck cibs tali713 kongtomorrow zematis jaimef Nizumzen pflanze rtra cdan Rodya_ jcowan vraid zacts nowhere_man_ karswell oleo__ alpha123 felipe leppie racycle ivan\ Saeren aap_ dpk rudybot fadein xian tessier_ Kryo dca z0d joneshf-laptop nightfly offby1 DerGuteMoritz kwmiebach_ pchrist gf3 antoszka balkamos ggherdov nihilatus pygospa
2014-07-17T23:01:43Z names: ozzloy nisstyre jrslepak Neet samth greghendershott jyc george2 ELLIOTTCABLE superjudge_ dytrivedi cky yosafbridge jkraemer coffee rotty juanfra gnomon Kruppe kilimanjaro cjh`_ fgudin tsuyoshi sethalves xenophon sigjuice_ mario-goulart joneshf omefire cmatei kilimanjaro_ ecraven gabot ByronJohnson c74d Khisanth alezost amoe githogori zarul[afk] araujo GGMethos diginet teiresias carc eli aeth niklasl2 DreamLin1xer kbtr_ necronian frkout defanor
2014-07-17T23:01:43Z names: paddymahoney rmrfchik_ FracV arbscht BitPuffin petercommand X-Scale Shadox SHODAN stepnem
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2014-07-18T03:51:27Z offby1: two at once!
2014-07-18T03:52:06Z pyro-: if offby1 says two at once, how can I tell if its actually one or three?
2014-07-18T03:52:58Z vraid: maybe it's two at naught
2014-07-18T03:54:27Z pyro-: oh dear, it could be one or three at negative one or one
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2014-07-18T03:54:51Z pyro-: not a lot of information is available when you're off by 1!
2014-07-18T03:55:46Z offby1: oh pshaw; it has to be within 1 and three!
2014-07-18T03:55:54Z offby1: Of course now that I've said that, you'll expand it to 0 and four ...
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2014-07-18T03:57:27Z pyro-: you mean that i'll expand it to 5 or 3? no, i don't see why i would do that
2014-07-18T03:57:31Z vraid: by induction, we know that it's somewhere in the infinite set of integers
2014-07-18T03:58:01Z pyro-: offby1: what was it that you were actually talking about?
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2014-07-18T07:38:02Z alpha-: helpful topic is helpful, thx
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2014-07-18T12:35:04Z pw_: Hi, is it possible to customize the printer for the primitive object in scheme (Racket)? for example, a continuation is defaultly printed as "#<continuation>", I'd like to include more information so that I can tell one continuation from another one.
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2014-07-18T14:20:00Z offby1: pyro-: rudybot said "bows deeply before his master" and "la la la" in succession: the first means that klutometis joined; the second means that duncanm joined
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2014-07-18T15:04:41Z leppie: hmmm: found a bug in IronScheme, and Chez seems to have it too (returns 0.0)
2014-07-18T15:04:49Z leppie: rudybot: (remainder (expt 49.0 103) 143)
2014-07-18T15:04:49Z rudybot: leppie: ; Value: 77.0
2014-07-18T15:05:34Z leppie: rudybot: (remainder (expt 49 103) 143)
2014-07-18T15:05:34Z rudybot: leppie: ; Value: 114
2014-07-18T15:07:31Z leppie: guess for double precision, neither are wrong
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2014-07-18T19:57:32Z 
2014-07-18T19:57:32Z names: ccl-logbot DGASAU fikusz stepnem sad0ur przl Riastradh joast alexei_ ddp em BitPuffin arrubin fizzie averell C-Keen SirDayBat poucet zarul theseb kazimir42 oleo zematis karswell AkashicLegend Isp-sec vadzimt aoh teiresias X-Scale racycle Khisanth daviid tali713 davexunit carc ANGRYSTEVE taylanub LeoNerd githogori aeth yacks alpha- alpha123 cdidd fiddlerwoaroof cataska NinjaPenguin rmrfchik vraid omefire2 omefire1 jaimef copec estevocastro Kabaka
2014-07-18T19:57:32Z names: Intensity certaint1 Saeren aap_ dpk rudybot fadein xian tessier_ Kryo dca z0d joneshf-laptop nightfly offby1 DerGuteMoritz kwmiebach_ pchrist gf3 antoszka balkamos ggherdov nihilatus pygospa ozzloy nisstyre jrslepak Neet samth greghendershott jyc george2 ELLIOTTCABLE superjudge_ dytrivedi cky yosafbridge jkraemer rotty juanfra gnomon Kruppe kilimanjaro cjh`_ fgudin tsuyoshi sethalves xenophon sigjuice_ mario-goulart joneshf cmatei kilimanjaro_ ecraven
2014-07-18T19:57:32Z names: gabot ByronJohnson c74d alezost amoe araujo GGMethos diginet eli niklasl2 DreamLin1xer kbtr_ necronian defanor paddymahoney FracV arbscht petercommand SHODAN leppie felipe nowhere_man_ zacts rtra pflanze cibs DrDuck BossKonaSegwaY hjolt mornfall Natch Blkt peterhil effy m4burns jj2baile_ Nshag asumu Razz edw eMBee micro` twem2 clog ctindall shardz _will_ oldskirt_ copumpkin ohama renopt cross choas_ Guest30316 misv_ leif waxysubs Okasu akp ft aksatac_
2014-07-18T19:57:32Z names: klutometis dan64 Soft finnrobi acieroid pjb turbofail mrowe duncanm evhan haroldwu shadowfax eagleflo ineiros_
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2014-07-20T05:55:52Z lewis1711: is there any way to convert the arguments of a syntax rule into a symbol?
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2014-07-20T06:39:33Z ilammy: lewis1711: just quote it
2014-07-20T06:41:49Z lewis1711: oh right
2014-07-20T06:41:53Z lewis1711: (define-syntax my-quoter (syntax-rules () ((_ sym) (quote sym))))
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2014-07-20T06:43:11Z lewis1711: rudybot: (define-syntax my-quoter (syntax-rules () ((_ sym ...) (quote sym ...))))
2014-07-20T06:43:11Z rudybot: lewis1711: your sandbox is ready
2014-07-20T06:43:11Z rudybot: lewis1711: Done.
2014-07-20T06:43:21Z lewis1711: rudybot: (my-quoter a b)
2014-07-20T06:43:21Z rudybot: lewis1711: error: #<undefined>:1:0: quote: wrong number of parts <NEWLINE>   in: (quote a b)
2014-07-20T06:43:37Z lewis1711: not quite sure how to do that one. i can't map over the list with quote, since it's not a procedure
2014-07-20T06:44:25Z lewis1711: oh nevermind figured it out
2014-07-20T06:44:40Z lewis1711: rudybot: (define-syntax my-quoter (syntax-rules () ((_ sym ...) (quote sym ...))))
2014-07-20T06:44:40Z rudybot: lewis1711: Done.
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2014-07-20T11:04:40Z jusss: what's the relation between scheme and newlisp ?
2014-07-20T11:08:18Z ijp: estranged cousins
2014-07-20T11:12:28Z jusss: it's so like,except for scope
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2014-07-20T12:12:24Z pjb: jusss: scheme forked from lisp in the 70's and went forward.  newlisp forked from lisp in the 60's and went backward.
2014-07-20T12:15:36Z lewis1711:   (define (foo x) (+ x x)) => (lambda (x) (+ x x))
2014-07-20T12:15:36Z lewis1711:    (last foo) => (+ x x)
2014-07-20T12:15:41Z lewis1711: that's kind of cool (newlisp)
2014-07-20T12:17:00Z ijp: you can do it in elisp, but no-one ever does, for obvious reasons
2014-07-20T12:18:12Z jusss: newlisp wasn't originated in 1991?
2014-07-20T12:18:23Z pjb: yes, that's the problem.
2014-07-20T12:18:39Z pjb: (actually, I think it was created even later, in the 2000's).
2014-07-20T12:18:53Z ijp: jusss: yes, so they should know better
2014-07-20T12:19:04Z lewis1711: ijp, sure I can't think of a use case for it, but it's neat
2014-07-20T12:19:57Z ijp: you'd love lisp 1.5, you could cdr a symbol to get its plist
2014-07-20T12:20:35Z ijp: me, I'm a big fan of this whole "abstraction" thing
2014-07-20T12:20:40Z pjb: There's a CL standard function for that: (function-lambda-expression (function foo)) --> (LAMBDA (X) (DECLARE (SYSTEM::IN-DEFUN FOO)) (BLOCK FOO (+ X X)))
2014-07-20T12:20:53Z jusss: does scheme have plist?
2014-07-20T12:20:57Z ijp: jusss: no
2014-07-20T12:21:09Z pjb: not symbol-plist, but you can build plists easily.
2014-07-20T12:21:25Z ijp: please use alists instead of plists -- management
2014-07-20T12:21:42Z pjb: plists are nice for keyword argument lists.
2014-07-20T12:21:56Z jusss: newlisp belongs lisp-1 ?
2014-07-20T12:21:56Z pjb: Of course, scheme makes it harder or impossible to use as such.
2014-07-20T12:22:02Z pjb: jusss: iirc, yes.
2014-07-20T12:22:11Z lewis1711: what is a plist?
2014-07-20T12:22:31Z pjb: property list: list of alternating keyword (symbols) and values.
2014-07-20T12:22:46Z ijp: lewis1711: plist: (foo foo-val bar bar-val baz baz-val) alist: ((foo foo-val) (bar bar-val) (baz baz-val))
2014-07-20T12:22:47Z pjb: (x 1 y 2 z 3) is a plist.
2014-07-20T12:23:00Z pjb: ((x . 1) (y . 2) (z . 3)) is an a-list
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2014-07-20T12:23:35Z pjb: the value in a a-list is obtained with (cdr entry), not (cadr entry)!
2014-07-20T12:24:24Z ijp: personally, I'd get rid of non-list pairs
2014-07-20T12:24:25Z lewis1711: I suppose rackets keyword args are a form of p-list then
2014-07-20T12:24:50Z ijp: lewis1711: that's the syntactic form, the names comes from them being lists of properties attached with symbols
2014-07-20T12:25:39Z pjb: The point is that cons cells are a fundamental data structure: the smallest data structure that's not an atom.  With it, you can build any other data structure.
2014-07-20T12:26:03Z pjb: Otherwise I'd agree that working in the list monad can be easier than switching to the cons level on and off.
2014-07-20T12:26:12Z ijp: pjb: none of which is lost if you you use lists instead of pairs
2014-07-20T12:26:38Z ijp: you pay an extra cons, that's it
2014-07-20T12:26:53Z pjb: yes
2014-07-20T12:27:50Z ijp: this might be have been a problem in 1960 when we were using poorly paid african labour to mine conses in the congo
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2014-07-20T12:29:33Z pjb: You could count conses on your claws.
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2014-07-20T12:49:17Z jusss: how to get a number of a list's atoms? eg (1 2 3)is 3
2014-07-20T12:50:46Z lewis1711: jusss, (length '(1 2 3))
2014-07-20T12:51:08Z jusss: and how to get some atoms from a list with a number, eg the number is 3, get (3 4 5) frome (3 4 5 8 9 0) ?
2014-07-20T12:52:38Z jusss: lewis1711: is there a function can do that ?
2014-07-20T12:53:57Z lewis1711: yeah, have you tried searching?
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2014-07-20T12:55:39Z jusss: is there a website show all function ?
2014-07-20T12:57:05Z jusss: there is a website show all cl's function ,eg http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Front/X_Master.htm
2014-07-20T13:28:10Z pjb: jusss: but for scheme go search on http://www.schemers.org
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2014-07-20T13:40:26Z jusss: pjb: 123 turn to (1 2 3), (string->list (number->string 123)) and how to do next?
2014-07-20T13:40:55Z jusss: turn (#\1 #\2 #\3) to (1 2 3)
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2014-07-20T13:46:09Z pjb: jusss: first search in http://www.schemers.org/Documents/Standards/R5RS/HTML/
2014-07-20T13:46:22Z pjb: then search in http://srfi.schemers.org/
2014-07-20T13:46:30Z pjb: and finally search in your implementation documentation!
2014-07-20T13:47:35Z pjb: Of course, if scheme was as practical as CL, it'd have functions like APROPOS, DOCUMENTATION, DESCRIBE, etc.  Some scheme implementations have that, but not often.
2014-07-20T13:48:00Z pjb: On the other hand, perhaps nowadays using the web for the documentation is easier than in-line documentation?
2014-07-20T13:51:46Z jusss: pjb: i think it is easier to find a function if a website to give a index of all functions and syntax
2014-07-20T13:52:09Z pjb: then click on the index link in the above urls.
2014-07-20T13:53:57Z jusss: http://www.schemers.org/Documents/Standards/R5RS/HTML/ is good
2014-07-20T13:56:05Z jusss: pjb: how to (#\1 #\2 #\3) to (1 2 3) ? there is not char->number
2014-07-20T13:56:21Z pjb: search in the index around char->…
2014-07-20T13:56:35Z pjb: --> http://www.schemers.org/Documents/Standards/R5RS/HTML/r5rs-Z-H-15.html#%_index_start
2014-07-20T13:56:36Z rudybot: http://tinyurl.com/3xs7wx
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2014-07-20T14:00:32Z jusss: there is not char->number
2014-07-20T14:00:44Z jusss: i found char->integer
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2014-07-20T14:20:26Z jusss: i got it , wrote a function to do this
2014-07-20T14:20:57Z jusss: (define char->number (lambda (n) (if (eq? n #\1) 1 (if (eq? n #\2) 2 (if (eq? n #\3) 3)))))
2014-07-20T14:21:19Z jusss: (map char->number '(#\1 #\2 #\3))
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2014-07-20T14:26:47Z renopt: (define char->number (lambda (n) (- (char->integer x) 48)))
2014-07-20T14:28:19Z renopt: s/x/n/ heh
2014-07-20T14:29:39Z GGMethos: http://xuanji.appspot.com/isicp/index.html
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2014-07-20T16:05:26Z pjb: renopt: this works only if char->integer returns the ASCII code of the character.  But this is NOT what it is specified to do.
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2014-07-20T16:06:54Z renopt: what's the point of it then
2014-07-20T16:09:51Z renopt: I mean, other than sorting maybe
2014-07-20T16:11:13Z nisstyre: renopt: converting text to number values
2014-07-20T16:11:25Z nisstyre: there are a million situations where that's useful
2014-07-20T16:13:23Z pjb: renopt: notice that char->integer and integer->char have still nice properties with respect to char<? and <?.
2014-07-20T16:13:57Z renopt: one of which would be converting a string of characters to a number, but if it doesn't output something consistent you can't do that, at least not portably
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2014-07-21T07:46:38Z taylanub wonders whether anyone cares about the fact that psyntax isn't R7RS compatible because unquoted vectors are now specified to be self-evaluating
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2014-07-21T09:24:43Z wingo: s/about.*/about R7RS/
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2014-07-21T15:20:03Z dca: hi. what scsh implementation should i use ?
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2014-07-21T15:25:05Z oleo: afaik it's scheme48 or so....
2014-07-21T15:25:38Z dca: there are hell lot's of scsh google says
2014-07-21T15:25:46Z oleo: i don't think it works with others.....unless i'm wrong....
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2014-07-21T15:25:57Z dca: old scsh (i386 only) guile-scsh, racket skish, new scsh
2014-07-21T15:26:08Z oleo: well i saw many distros hand it with scheme48 just...
2014-07-21T15:26:16Z oleo: ah
2014-07-21T15:26:26Z oleo: ok then i am wrong.....
2014-07-21T15:27:09Z oleo: have used it just once and for very short time....
2014-07-21T15:27:23Z oleo: i don't think i would have much use for it....
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2014-07-21T15:29:05Z jusss: does scheme support unicode or gbk ?
2014-07-21T15:29:11Z oleo: it does
2014-07-21T15:29:16Z oleo: at least unicode
2014-07-21T15:32:46Z jusss: i try (list '今天 '昨天) and i got (����� ����� ������)
2014-07-21T15:33:06Z oleo: the first displays ok here the rest not....
2014-07-21T15:33:34Z oleo: yes you need the glyphs.....
2014-07-21T15:33:36Z vraid: depends on the editor used, doesn't it
2014-07-21T15:33:41Z oleo: not only
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2014-07-21T15:33:51Z oleo: you need the fonts and the glyphs....
2014-07-21T15:34:03Z oleo: and no font covers all.....
2014-07-21T15:34:32Z oleo: there are some multiplexers .....which derive glyphs from other fonts....and replace them....
2014-07-21T15:34:41Z oleo: even tho the selected font does not involve them....
2014-07-21T15:34:49Z oleo: but not every client does it....
2014-07-21T15:35:12Z oleo: too heavy maybe....
2014-07-21T15:37:05Z jusss: how i can get a value of character in utf8 ,not ascci ?
2014-07-21T15:37:28Z ijp: you mean the unicode codepoint
2014-07-21T15:37:29Z jusss: is there a function can do that ?
2014-07-21T15:37:48Z ijp: and char->integer will handle that on unicode supporting schemes
2014-07-21T15:40:50Z ijp: rudybot: (char->integer #\例)
2014-07-21T15:40:50Z rudybot: ijp: your sandbox is ready
2014-07-21T15:40:51Z rudybot: ijp: ; Value: 20363
2014-07-21T15:44:56Z jusss: i can't input chinese in my implement,petite chez scheme x64 for windows
2014-07-21T15:45:36Z jusss: i will try debian
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2014-07-21T15:49:14Z jusss: it still doesn't work
2014-07-21T15:50:07Z jusss: i have chinese fonts
2014-07-21T15:50:25Z jusss: and chinese input method
2014-07-21T15:51:36Z vraid: http://codepad.org/RPIjIYfd
2014-07-21T15:51:54Z vraid: i can use chinese in the racket ide without problems
2014-07-21T15:54:59Z jusss: racket is so big ,
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2014-07-21T16:06:18Z jusss: i found newlisp can handle chinese in windows
2014-07-21T16:07:36Z jusss: sbcl too
2014-07-21T16:15:39Z jusss: good night
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2014-07-21T18:36:56Z mario-goulart: Riastradh: out of curiosity, do you have a family member called William which happens to be the implementer of UMB Scheme?
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2014-07-22T22:32:54Z dirtystache: taylanub, what I don't get though is the seemingly arbitrary nature of using closures in one point and syntax in another to implement controlled evaluation.
2014-07-22T22:33:19Z dirtystache: Like "for-each" and "map" use closures to replace what is syntax in a lot of other languages, but "if" is actual syntax and not a pure function just consuming two thunks
2014-07-22T22:33:28Z dirtystache: Who made that arbitrary call.
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2014-07-22T22:36:46Z pyro-: dirtystache: see jshutts "kernel" for a language without such a distinction
2014-07-22T22:37:14Z dirtystache: pyro-, it's a lisp where control structures are all implemented with closures?
2014-07-22T22:37:19Z LeoNerd: 'if' is a fundamental language construct that is provided by the base level, whereas for-each and map can be built up using macros
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2014-07-22T22:38:52Z dirtystache: LeoNerd, it could also be a fundamental function though
2014-07-22T22:38:55Z dirtystache: no need to make it special syntax
2014-07-22T22:39:02Z pyro-: dirtystache: sort of. its a language with no "special forms" instead it has "fexprs" which are kind of like first-class run-time macros. if is a fexpr. lambda is implemented in terms of the procedure that makes fexprs
2014-07-22T22:39:22Z dirtystache: It could just be a function taking 3 arguments, latter of two thunks, much like how dynamic-wind is a fundamental function taking 2 arguments.
2014-07-22T22:40:01Z pyro-: dirtystache: so unlike scheme (map and ...) works
2014-07-22T22:40:13Z pyro-: and (map if ...)
2014-07-22T22:41:05Z dirtystache: pyro-, doesn't that necessitate a significantly more complex runtime?
2014-07-22T22:41:53Z pyro-: dirtystache: i'm not qualified to say if it necessitates it. certainly the only existing attempts at implementation are less than speedy
2014-07-22T22:42:57Z pyro-: the definition of eval is simpler and more beautiful than in scheme
2014-07-22T22:42:59Z dirtystache: Interpreter or compiler?
2014-07-22T22:43:04Z dirtystache: hmm
2014-07-22T22:43:06Z pyro-: but i guess it might be hard for compilers to cope
2014-07-22T22:43:14Z dirtystache: but "and" does implement short-circut evaluation right
2014-07-22T22:43:20Z dirtystache: (and a b) does what it does in scheme?
2014-07-22T22:43:23Z pyro-: correct
2014-07-22T22:43:34Z pyro-: you can make your own short circuit operators with fexprs
2014-07-22T22:44:02Z dirtystache: And does the smae short circult evaluation happen with (map and ...) inside the function body
2014-07-22T22:44:03Z dirtystache: ?
2014-07-22T22:44:13Z pyro-: yes
2014-07-22T22:44:15Z dirtystache: Or does it dissapear at that point
2014-07-22T22:44:16Z dirtystache: Ah yes.
2014-07-22T22:47:16Z taylanub: dirtystache: `if' must be syntax because if it weren't all subforms in the form (if <subform1> <subform2> <subform3>) would be evaluated before control passing to the procedure acquired by evaluating the `if' (as a variable reference)
2014-07-22T22:47:47Z dirtystache: taylanub, not if you make the last two arguments thunks.
2014-07-22T22:48:10Z dirtystache: Which is how for-each does conditional evaluation like a control structure while being a function
2014-07-22T22:48:56Z taylanub: oh, of course it could just take procedures for the then and else cases, but yeah, that's just one of those things where you call quits because pragmatism beats pedantic consistency: you often will pass an existing procedure to `map' and `for-each', but for `if' you would just be creating a one-shot thunk there most of the time
2014-07-22T22:49:10Z dirtystache: As in (if (even? n) (lambda () (display "n is even")) (lambda () (display "n is odd")))
2014-07-22T22:50:11Z taylanub: yeah, that's just cumbersome and not worth the "consistency" ...
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2014-07-22T22:53:01Z taylanub: all in all, you don't aim for some absolute minimalism for the sake of it; you aim for a certain amount of minimalism for reasons that are ultimately pragmatic
2014-07-22T22:53:09Z taylanub: in Scheme, that is
2014-07-22T22:53:28Z taylanub: for absolute purity .. just do maths? :P
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2014-07-22T22:57:06Z dirtystache: taylanub, well, the criticism scheme often gets is that it is elegant for the sake of being elegant.
2014-07-22T22:57:19Z dirtystache: And nothing stops you from defining a functional conditional I guess
2014-07-22T22:57:25Z dirtystache: note that in smalltalk it is done like that
2014-07-22T22:57:52Z dirtystache: A boolean is an object which can receive two messages, ifTrue and ifFalse, each of whom take a closure as argument
2014-07-22T22:58:32Z pyro-: according to, i think it was sussman iirc, they discovered that scheme was minimal accidentally, when they started comparing the operators they needed to do similar things to the actor model. finding a minimal subset of useful operators wasnt an explicit goal
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2014-07-22T22:59:43Z dirtystache: This isn't as much minimalism as it is consistency though.
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2014-07-22T23:00:24Z dirtystache: Besides, it needn't be a thunk, it can also be a one argument function which gets passed the condition, so you basically get a (<exp> => <exp>) cond-clause
2014-07-22T23:00:33Z pyro-: i'd agree. a lot of scheme people wouldn't though. i have a feeling many of them are compiler writers :-P
2014-07-22T23:02:19Z dirtystache: I'm not sure how this would complicate writing an implementation, it can internally easily be defined as (define (if cond thunk1 thunk2) (if* cond (thunk1) (thunk2))) where if* is the old one we have now.
2014-07-22T23:03:57Z pyro-: well, you've written that one yourself already, so you can go ahead and use it
2014-07-22T23:04:50Z pyro-: if you want the to be not thunks anymore, thats when you need (something equivilent to) fexprs, which arn't all that popular
2014-07-22T23:07:51Z dirtystache: I'm sure they're useful, but you always have to walk a line between useful and keeping the runtime simple enough and easily optimized.
2014-07-22T23:08:17Z dirtystache: fexprs seem to require a significantly complicated runtime, one of the nice things about scheme is how simple the runtime need be. CL requires a much more complicated one.
2014-07-22T23:08:30Z pyro-: sure, depends what you need
2014-07-22T23:08:45Z dirtystache: Did you know you can do the aequivalent of (set! (string->symbol "foo") 3) in CL?
2014-07-22T23:08:55Z dirtystache: That rocked my mind when I first saw it.
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2014-07-22T23:10:17Z pyro-: (fexprs can use a dumb interpreter using something like tree reduction, and be simpler than a runtime without fexprs, due to the lack of special forms to support. its when you go to compile them that its difficult)
2014-07-22T23:10:26Z pyro-: yeah
2014-07-22T23:11:11Z pyro-: comon lisp also has setf macros which are pretty cool
2014-07-22T23:11:47Z dirtystache: YEah, you do it with (setf (intern "foo") 3)
2014-07-22T23:12:11Z dirtystache: But making the dumb interpreter isn't that hard yeah, but the dumb interpreter is typically not very fast.
2014-07-22T23:12:22Z Riastradh: ITYM (set (intern "foo") 3), or (setf (symbol-value (intern "foo")) 3).
2014-07-22T23:12:45Z dirtystache: What's symbol-value?
2014-07-22T23:13:01Z dirtystache: It's like evaluating a symbol?
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2014-07-22T23:19:34Z Twirlystache: pyro-, you can also do something like that (if x y z) just works like special syntax but the moment do something like (map if xs) it gets translated to (map (lambda (x y z) (f x y z)) xs) I guess
2014-07-22T23:19:42Z Twirlystache: OCaml does something like that with && and ||
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2014-07-22T23:24:44Z pyro-: thats interesting
2014-07-22T23:25:10Z pyro-: the seantics silently change to non short circuiting?
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2014-07-23T00:03:46Z Twirlystache: pyro-, yeah, to a normal function basically.
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2014-07-23T06:51:17Z taylanub: Twirlystache: `symbol-value' is the accessor for the "value slot" of a symbol; in CL (and Elisp) symbols are just data structures with a couple slots: a value slot, a function slot, a plist slot, and as usual the name of the symbol
2014-07-23T06:51:45Z taylanub: (disclaimer: most of my CL knowledge comes from the similarity to Elisp so I could be off)
2014-07-23T06:53:40Z taylanub: Twirlystache: the Scheme *standards* could be criticized of having been minimal more or less "for the sake of it" for a long time, though there's long been practical implementations building on that minimal basis, and the standards are evolving too
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2014-07-23T22:39:24Z Twirlystache: taylanub, well, if is part of the standard though, and I don't see how using closures is that impractical, smalltalk does it.
2014-07-23T22:39:51Z Twirlystache: Smalltalk implements conditions exactly like that that, a Boolean is nothing more than an object which recognizes two messages, ifTrue and ifFalse, both having a thunk as argument, church booleans all over again and it works quite nicely.
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2014-07-24T08:25:12Z taylanub: uh, so Smalltalk legitimately uses method calls on bool objects for doing conditionals ..
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2014-07-24T12:40:18Z jusss: rudybot: (integer->char (+ 9 (char->integer t)))
2014-07-24T12:40:19Z rudybot: jusss: your sandbox is ready
2014-07-24T12:40:19Z rudybot: jusss: error: t: undefined; <NEWLINE>  cannot reference an identifier before its definition <NEWLINE>   in module: 'program
2014-07-24T12:40:54Z jusss: rudybot: (lambda () 9)
2014-07-24T12:40:54Z rudybot: jusss: ; Value: #<procedure>
2014-07-24T12:41:11Z jusss: rudybot: 9
2014-07-24T12:41:11Z rudybot: jusss: ; Value: 9
2014-07-24T12:41:54Z jusss: rudybot: (integer->char (+ 9 (char->integer t)))
2014-07-24T12:41:55Z rudybot: jusss: error: t: undefined; <NEWLINE>  cannot reference an identifier before its definition <NEWLINE>   in module: 'program
2014-07-24T12:43:00Z jusss: rudybot: (integer->char (+ 9 (char->integer #\t)))
2014-07-24T12:43:00Z rudybot: jusss: ; Value: #\}
2014-07-24T12:43:43Z jusss: rudybot: (integer->char (+ 9 (char->integer #\好)))
2014-07-24T12:43:43Z rudybot: jusss: ; Value: #\妆
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2014-07-24T12:52:43Z taylanub: jusss: I think you can /query rudybot
2014-07-24T12:53:21Z jusss: taylanub: sorry
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2014-07-24T18:55:25Z jrhorn424: just getting into scheme. what's the deal with some schemes not supporting R6RS? just trying to pick one that's recent enough and has good readline support.
2014-07-24T18:55:53Z jrhorn424: i ask also because i'm curious about language history
2014-07-24T18:57:34Z ijp: jrhorn424: it would be too much work to change their scheme
2014-07-24T18:57:43Z ijp: where too much = non-zero
2014-07-24T18:57:48Z jrhorn424: ijp: so lots of breaking changes?
2014-07-24T18:57:53Z samth: jrhorn424: i recommend racket
2014-07-24T18:57:56Z jrhorn424: ah, i see
2014-07-24T18:58:17Z ijp: jrhorn424: in standard scheme? no. in all the nonstandard extensions everybody added? yes.
2014-07-24T18:58:23Z oldskirt_ is now known as oldskirt
2014-07-24T18:58:30Z ijp: obscure things, like exceptions, and binary io
2014-07-24T18:59:22Z jrhorn424: i see. i started with tinyscheme since I'm just trying to follow "the little schemer".
2014-07-24T18:59:31Z jrhorn424: no readline. i'll look into racket.
2014-07-24T19:02:57Z samth: jrhorn424: there's also a racket-specific irc channel called #racket
2014-07-24T19:03:17Z jrhorn424: thanks :)
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2014-07-24T19:11:01Z jcowan: R6RS placed far more restrictions on implementers, who *are* willing to make changes, they don't insist on "no change ever", they just don't like upheavals.
2014-07-24T19:11:37Z jcowan: THe result is that it wasn't widely implemented (most implementations other than Chez and Racket have stalled) and users didn't get the promised advantages anyway.
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2014-07-24T19:12:19Z ijp:  upheavels after years of discussion which some of them were involved in
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2014-07-24T19:13:13Z samth: jcowan: that statement is true in the trivial sense that most implementation of scheme are dead
2014-07-24T19:15:16Z jcowan: samth: I don't consider that a triviality.
2014-07-24T19:15:23Z jcowan: In any case, that is not dead which can eternal lie.
2014-07-24T19:16:03Z ijp: cthuluh would love emacs
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2014-07-24T19:18:11Z samth: jcowan: anyone can promise advantages to users, but will they appear when you promise them (with apologies to ol' bill)
2014-07-24T19:18:27Z jcowan: I agree.
2014-07-24T19:19:18Z jcowan: OTOH, I have a romantic admiration for Owain Glyndŵr, and I suspect Bill did too.
2014-07-24T19:21:06Z ijp: jrhorn424: anyway, the shortest unbiased response is "politics"
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2014-07-24T19:22:30Z jrhorn424: that is fascinating. thanks. i've gathered some reading material for the weekend.
2014-07-24T19:23:01Z samth: ijp: a slightly longer unbiased one would be "scheme implementors disagree on stuff, and the existence of standards doesn't change that"
2014-07-24T19:23:54Z jcowan: Doesn't trump it, certainly.  Affects it, yes.
2014-07-24T19:25:03Z samth: jcowan: has had negligible impact on it in the last 20 years
2014-07-24T19:27:07Z jcowan: When new Schemes are written, they tend to conform to RnRS for the current value of n, whatever it may be.  Then they start drifting, and may or may not upgrade.
2014-07-24T19:27:37Z ijp: could be worse, we could all be reimplenting java
2014-07-24T19:28:31Z samth: jcowan: i think i've seen more r5-ish systems in the last 5 years than r6 or r7
2014-07-24T19:29:05Z jcowan: r7 systems are r5-ish modulo modules.
2014-07-24T19:31:12Z samth: indeed, who needs progress after 20 years?
2014-07-24T19:31:47Z jcowan: THe question is not whether but how.
2014-07-24T19:31:54Z samth: not like anything happened since 1993
2014-07-24T19:32:30Z samth: i like "programming" as the answer to "how"
2014-07-24T19:32:35Z jcowan: A lot of SRFIs for one thing.
2014-07-24T19:32:48Z jcowan: Programming is necessary but not sufficient.
2014-07-24T19:32:57Z jcowan: Otherwise Intercal would have taken over the world long ago.
2014-07-24T19:33:03Z samth: indeed, when i think of the history of computing since 1993, SRFIs immediately spring to mind
2014-07-24T19:34:07Z jcowan: It depends on whether you mean the history of computing research or the history of Real World computing.  They are on two different tracks, and in the Real World, 1993 has not yet arrived.
2014-07-24T19:34:32Z turbofail: it has arrived, just not evenly
2014-07-24T19:35:19Z pjdelport: Obligatory William Gibson: "The future is already here — it's just not very evenly distributed."
2014-07-24T19:36:05Z samth: i dunno, neither of those tracks had hand-held digital cameras in 1993, let alone multi-core supercomputers with hi-dpi touch screens that also have cameras
2014-07-24T19:36:25Z samth: or, say, the world wide web
2014-07-24T19:38:16Z samth: fortunately, in that time scheme did manage to add structs
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2014-07-24T20:35:54Z pjb: samth: in 93, there was already gopher.
2014-07-24T20:37:09Z pjb: samth: and the www existed for 2 years, since 6 August 1991.
2014-07-24T20:37:21Z samth: pjb: indeed
2014-07-24T20:40:02Z asumu: jrhorn424: since you mentioned readline, JSYK to use readline in Racket do (require xrepl) or (require readline). It's not enabled by default due to licensing issues.
2014-07-24T20:40:19Z asumu: (you can put that in .racketrc to have it on by default)
2014-07-24T20:43:56Z jcowan: I've been thinking about what it means to have < and > on hash tables.  There seem to be two natural interpretations, setwise (a < b iff a contains a subset of the associations of b) and something that I don't know a name for ...
2014-07-24T20:44:46Z jcowan: ... but a < b in this sense iff a contains a subset of the keys of b and for each such key, the values are <, not necessarily in the same sense of <.  Is either of these clearly superior to the other?
2014-07-24T20:45:00Z ski: perhaps that latter is one of the Hoare, Smyth, and Egli-Milner power-domain orderings on sets of ordered elements ?
2014-07-24T20:45:46Z ski: that sounds like Hoare, i think
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2014-07-24T20:45:47Z jcowan: ski: Reference to this?
2014-07-24T20:45:57Z ski: (or maybe i'm confusing Hoare and Smyth again)
2014-07-24T20:46:46Z Riastradh: What's the application?
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2014-07-24T20:48:18Z jcowan: ski: Dr. Google tells me it's about partial orderings, but here we have a total ordering of elements, though not of maps.
2014-07-24T20:49:16Z ski: jcowan : "Non-determinism in Functional Languages" by Harald Søndergaard,Peter Sestoft in 1988-08,1992-05 at <http://comjnl.oxfordjournals.org/content/35/5/514.abstract> mentions them on page 5
2014-07-24T20:49:20Z Riastradh: Why would you ever want to do (< ht0 ht1)?
2014-07-24T20:49:34Z ski: they are defined for partial orderings, yes
2014-07-24T20:50:04Z jcowan: Well, since maps are sets of associations, and subset operations are natural on sets, there's no doubt that the first definition makes sense.  The question is whether the second one also has its place.
2014-07-24T20:50:21Z ski: for total orders (which are also partial orders), Hoare and Smyth in general doesn't coincide
2014-07-24T20:50:23Z jcowan: Note that we need a second definition of = for values to do any sort of map comparison, but not necessarily of <
2014-07-24T20:50:41Z ski: (and Egli-Milner (apparently aka Plotkin) is just the conjunction of Hoare and Smyth)
2014-07-24T20:51:11Z ijp: it's not obvious what the result would be when the keys are the same but the values are different
2014-07-24T20:51:16Z jcowan: so map equality requires key equality and value equality, map subset requires key equality and value equality also, but this "second subset" requires key equality and value ordering.
2014-07-24T20:51:28Z ijp: Riastradh: when you are bored and have nothing better to do?
2014-07-24T20:52:04Z jcowan: ijp: If that weren't at least somewhat the case, I wouldn't be on IRC anyway.
2014-07-24T20:53:25Z ski: jcowan : anyway for Smyth, i think you replace "subset" by "superset" in that definition
2014-07-24T20:53:34Z jcowan: I can't get to page 5
2014-07-24T20:53:39Z ski: (but keep the direction of `<')
2014-07-24T20:53:52Z jcowan: Is there a discussion of this outside the context of nondeterminism, which for my purposes is irrelevant?
2014-07-24T20:55:12Z jcowan: I'm looking at Wyskel 1983 <http://repository.cmu.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=2481&context=compsci> but without success.
2014-07-24T20:55:39Z ski: afaik, it's mostly used to model different sorts of nondeterminism (though i don't know that much about it)
2014-07-24T20:55:58Z jcowan: OK, ta.
2014-07-24T20:56:18Z ski: jcowan : you could perhaps try <http://web.student.chalmers.se/~md9slj/tmp/The Computer Journal-1992-Søndergaard-514-23.pdf>, if the previous link doesn't work
2014-07-24T20:59:49Z jcowan: THanks, I'll tackle that.
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2014-07-24T21:01:09Z jcowan: Random question:  Why has the convention of single-letter names for type variables become so strong?  Granted, they are used in mathematics, but the multi-letter identifier was one of the great improvements to perspicacity.  Why the retrograde?
2014-07-24T21:04:38Z turbofail: well a type variable typically isn't going to have a whole lot of semantic significance
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2014-07-24T21:04:47Z ilammy: I believe some folks want to look more smart and mathematicianish by using such conventions. As with any external attributes.
2014-07-24T21:04:58Z turbofail: because the entire point of it is that it's not supposed to matter
2014-07-24T21:05:56Z turbofail: what name would you realistically give instead of a in (List a)?
2014-07-24T21:06:27Z ilammy: However, I reckon this is not true for polymorphic types.
2014-07-24T21:06:39Z ijp: turbofail: "any"
2014-07-24T21:06:56Z ijp: this begins to fail quite quickly with more type variables
2014-07-24T21:06:58Z ilammy: For all these 'Lists of X' it is hard to imagine any meaningful names for type parameters
2014-07-24T21:07:17Z jcowan: That's fine, but (Map key value) is much better than (Map a b).
2014-07-24T21:07:22Z ski: saying `type-0',`type-1' isn't very much more intelligble than saying `a',`b'
2014-07-24T21:07:36Z ijp: jcowan: single letter variable names have never exactly died, even in typical scheme code
2014-07-24T21:07:37Z ski: i agree about the `key' and `value' example there
2014-07-24T21:07:40Z ilammy: Well, it should be (Map k v) then.
2014-07-24T21:08:12Z jcowan: ijp: Granted, but usually only for names of very local scope.
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2014-07-24T21:08:23Z ijp: and type variables are
2014-07-24T21:08:24Z turbofail: yeah i would guess the utility of a longer name depends strongly on the number of variables you're using
2014-07-24T21:08:29Z ijp: they last one line typically
2014-07-24T21:08:59Z ski thinks ilammy meant "universal types", or something like that
2014-07-24T21:09:37Z ijp: I guess it boils down to "naming is hard"
2014-07-24T21:09:39Z jcowan: How so?  Type variables in a procedure last throughout the procedure, and in a class they last throughout the class.
2014-07-24T21:10:32Z turbofail: well with decent type inference you usually only use the type variable to annotate a function declaration
2014-07-24T21:10:32Z ijp: jcowan: type variables aren't referenced in the procedure, but only the signature
2014-07-24T21:10:45Z ijp: the class point is a bit more valid
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2014-07-24T21:11:06Z ilammy: ski: Ain't an expert in type theory. I am only starting to read the type-related chapters of DCPL now.
2014-07-24T21:11:41Z ilammy: Well, not _last_, but I believe... used.
2014-07-24T21:11:44Z ijp: I have heard some haskell programmers explicitly state that it is better for code to be shorter (presumably types too), because then you can fit it all in your head
2014-07-24T21:11:49Z ski: (hm, aren't type variables referenced in the function definition in SML ? .. or are we talking about something like Typed Racket ?)
2014-07-24T21:12:17Z ski: ilammy : actually, i realized now you probably meant "parametric type"
2014-07-24T21:12:21Z ijp: maybe, I think there is a ghc extension like that too
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2014-07-24T21:13:06Z ijp: jcowan: compose is an interesting one to think about
2014-07-24T21:13:16Z jcowan: I agree that short versions of simple things are good, but taken too far we get APL (or J or K or whatever single-letter programming languages they have now)
2014-07-24T21:13:26Z ijp: (a -> b) -> (b -> c) -> (a -> c) ;; flipped version because the arrows flow better
2014-07-24T21:13:40Z ski: (generally, values are polymorphic. such values have "universal" types (types generalized over some tyvars). parametric types (type functions) enable such parametric polymorphism. one can also imagine polymorphism on the type level, i.e. a polymorphic type, but that's distinct from the former)
2014-07-24T21:13:52Z ijp: I'm not convinced that particular example would be better with names instead of letters
2014-07-24T21:14:06Z ijp shrugs
2014-07-24T21:14:12Z turbofail: (herp -> derp) -> (derp -> durr) -> (herp -> durr)
2014-07-24T21:14:13Z ilammy: I can bring C++ as an example with its templates. If you declare Map<K, V> this "<K, V>" part should be replicated in each method declaration. And before C++11 with its type reconstruction it should be also mentioned near almost every variable declaration. So people tend to use shorter names.
2014-07-24T21:14:26Z ijp loads his Roman Army officers and/or FFT implementation and decimates turbofail.
2014-07-24T21:14:43Z jrhorn424: asumu, thanks! i also discovered wraprl. works great with other schemes too, and uses my vi bindings :D
2014-07-24T21:14:48Z ilammy: ski: Yeah, I guess that's the right name for the thing.
2014-07-24T21:15:10Z jcowan: So in C++ or Java people use short names because they have to repeat them, and in ML or Haskell they use short names because they don't have to repeat them.  Sounds like a rationalization to me.
2014-07-24T21:15:28Z ijp: basically, shit happened
2014-07-24T21:15:39Z jcowan: Of course, in (ANSI) Basic we use short names because that's all we have.
2014-07-24T21:15:46Z ijp: I'm not convinced it was an explicit decision
2014-07-24T21:17:13Z samth: i think it's a combo of math heritage and small scope/short name
2014-07-24T21:17:21Z ski: jcowan : i agree that there's sometimes overuse of short names for (e.g.) tyvars in Haskell. just saying that there can be valid reasons
2014-07-24T21:17:31Z jcowan: Oh yes.
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2014-07-24T21:17:49Z jcowan: I got started on this because the Scala style sheet *prescribes* single letter names for (first-order-kinded) types.
2014-07-24T21:17:54Z ilammy: Well, a convention thing is also not to be underestimated. If a guy next door uses T is his paper (for some reason), then I'd use it as well for better mutual understanding.
2014-07-24T21:18:04Z jcowan nods.
2014-07-24T21:18:10Z samth: type variables are from languages where the scope was always small -- the ability to use them in the bodies of functions is quite new
2014-07-24T21:18:14Z samth: relatively speaking
2014-07-24T21:18:55Z ski: (iow, people sometimes gets used to calling things `a',`b' even when something else would be more appropriate. or perhaps sometimes expanded versions of stuff like `f',`m',`t' (functor,monad,monad transformer) would be more appropriate)
2014-07-24T21:20:02Z jcowan: (bar -> ba) -> (ba -> ra) -> (bar -> ra)
2014-07-24T21:20:03Z ski: prescribing single letter names sounds silly
2014-07-24T21:20:21Z jcowan: and multiple-letter names for higher-kinded types
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2014-07-24T21:22:43Z jcowan: New topic:  My intuition says that there is a deep connection between the use of "map" as a type and the use of "map" as a function, but I can't quite articulate it.  Does anyone else see it?
2014-07-24T21:22:49Z ski: hm, does Scala allow higher-kinded tyvars ?
2014-07-24T21:23:59Z ski: a finite map of type `Map key value' is a partial function from `key' to `value', defined on a finite subset of `key'
2014-07-24T21:24:31Z jcowan: ski: At least * => *, yes.
2014-07-24T21:24:39Z ski: (or were you thinking of `map' as in the procedure to apply a callback elementwise to a collection ?)
2014-07-24T21:24:40Z jcowan: Beyond that I don't (yet) know.
2014-07-24T21:24:45Z jcowan: The latter.
2014-07-24T21:25:24Z ski: i'm not sure of the etymology of that
2014-07-24T21:25:26Z ijp: well, lisp 1.5 had map, but no maps
2014-07-24T21:26:33Z jcowan: My notion is that a map is a reification of what (map proc list) does.
2014-07-24T21:27:07Z ski: hm. i don't recall hearing that before
2014-07-24T21:27:11Z jcowan: The function `hash-table-accessor` that I invented some while back transforms a map into a function useful for `map`.
2014-07-24T21:27:37Z ijp: I suppose you'd prefer it the function map was called image-of
2014-07-24T21:28:18Z ski: jcowan : handling keys not in the map by mapping to `#f' or ?
2014-07-24T21:28:48Z ijp: ski: unspecified, because that's how jcowan rolls
2014-07-24T21:29:06Z jcowan: Actually, there are two flavors, one with a default, one with a failure thunk, per SRFI 69.
2014-07-24T21:30:10Z ijp: in pfds, map getters take an optional default, and if one is not supplied they give an assertion error
2014-07-24T21:30:26Z ijp: seemed the best way to me
2014-07-24T21:31:56Z jcowan: In SRFI 69, if the failure thunk is omitted, you get an error on failure, but the default may not be omitted.
2014-07-24T21:32:15Z ijp: wat
2014-07-24T21:32:17Z ski: hm, perhaps it would be nice to be able to chain such partial functions on failure
2014-07-24T21:32:52Z jcowan: (h-t-ref/default h-t key default) or (h-t-ref h-t key failure) or (h-t-ref h-t key)
2014-07-24T21:33:24Z jcowan: returns the default, returns what the failure thunk returns, and throws an error, respectively.
2014-07-24T21:33:52Z ijp: so you can't distinguish between a default that is a thunk and a failure thunk
2014-07-24T21:33:59Z jcowan: No, the names are different
2014-07-24T21:34:08Z ijp: oh right, woops
2014-07-24T21:34:25Z ski: <http://srfi.schemers.org/srfi-69/srfi-69.html#hsht3>
2014-07-24T21:34:32Z jcowan: I have also added (h-t-ref key failure success)
2014-07-24T21:34:53Z ijp: jesus jcowan, is there anything you wont add
2014-07-24T21:35:03Z ski: jcowan : a la "Exceptional Syntax" ?
2014-07-24T21:35:50Z jcowan: Meaning this?  http://research.microsoft.com/pubs/64038/exceptionalsyntax.pdf
2014-07-24T21:36:08Z ski: "Exceptional Syntax" by Nick Benton,Andrew Kennedy in 2001-07 at <http://research.microsoft.com/en-us/um/people/akenn/sml/exceptionalsyntax.pdf>
2014-07-24T21:36:08Z jcowan: ijp: Well, the point of a large language is that it's large.
2014-07-24T21:36:09Z rudybot: http://tinyurl.com/ce9ezyp
2014-07-24T21:36:39Z ijp: that's a pretty stupid justification
2014-07-24T21:36:42Z jcowan: success is not a thunk, of course, it transforms what you get.
2014-07-24T21:36:58Z ski: (see section three for the pragmatic argument)
2014-07-24T21:37:22Z turbofail: what exactly does the success argument do that you couldn't do already?
2014-07-24T21:37:34Z ijp: turbofail: fill up page space
2014-07-24T21:37:39Z turbofail: the failure thunk at least provides useful functionality
2014-07-24T21:37:45Z turbofail: necessary functionality even
2014-07-24T21:38:01Z ski: turbofail : it simplifies handling the two cases differently
2014-07-24T21:38:58Z jcowan: I am not really going much beyond ML, Haskell, Scala, or Python.  Compared to their standard libraries, R6RS is still small.  IMO, part of the point of R7RS-small was to liberate R7RS-large from the constraint of smallness.
2014-07-24T21:39:01Z ski: so that you don't need to allocate a closure or a heap cell (or risk domain contagion) when you want to do different things
2014-07-24T21:39:09Z jcowan: ski: just so
2014-07-24T21:39:45Z jcowan: turbofail: Actually the failure thunk can be implemented in terms of the default by using a unique default object and providing a wrapper that calls the thunk when that object is returned.
2014-07-24T21:39:50Z samth: ski: i've found the racket hash-ref API to be completely suffient
2014-07-24T21:40:21Z ijp: making something large for largeness sake is as stupid as making something small for smallness's sake
2014-07-24T21:41:06Z jcowan: Sure.  But rather than asking myself "Should I keep it in?" I ask myself "Should I leave it out?"
2014-07-24T21:41:18Z ski: ("Multi-return function call" by Olin Shivers in 2004-09,2006-0[79] at <http://www.ccs.neu.edu/home/shivers/citations.html#mrlc> is probably somewhat relevant here as well)
2014-07-24T21:41:19Z ijp: and you've never once said "no"?
2014-07-24T21:41:33Z jcowan: Oh, I've said no, and other people have said no to me and I've accepted it.
2014-07-24T21:41:41Z ski: samth : ok
2014-07-24T21:42:01Z samth: which is (hash-ref h k) - raises on missing
2014-07-24T21:42:03Z ijp: I completely disagree with the approach. Nothing should go in for no reason other than "why not?"
2014-07-24T21:42:34Z samth: (hash-ref h k v) returns v on missing, invokes v on missing if v is a procedure, otherwise returns v
2014-07-24T21:42:45Z ijp: and I can hardly be accused of mr 50 pages
2014-07-24T21:42:58Z ijp: being*
2014-07-24T21:43:59Z jcowan: At one time, I had not only h-t-accessor but a whole bunch of mutators that worked the same way, so you could mutate hash tables on the fly.  I left them out.
2014-07-24T21:44:10Z jcowan: I am not proposing an object system, for a wider-scope example.
2014-07-24T21:44:23Z ijp: I have a module full of all sorts of cool general list functions that I wouldn't add to an srfi1++
2014-07-24T21:44:35Z ski: samth : is there a construct like `let'-`try' at <http://mjambon.com/extend-ocaml-syntax.html#lettry> in Racket ?
2014-07-24T21:44:46Z ijp: because honestly, how often does one need a list of all partitions of a list?
2014-07-24T21:45:05Z jcowan: I'm not tampering with SRFI 1 in any way.
2014-07-24T21:45:24Z ijp: it was an example
2014-07-24T21:45:43Z jcowan: Yes, and an example of what I won't add (to).
2014-07-24T21:47:07Z samth: ski: no
2014-07-24T21:47:41Z samth: ski: you'd normally use the Some/None solution in Racket with #f as None
2014-07-24T21:47:50Z ski: i see
2014-07-24T21:47:51Z samth: ski: and not-#f-ness as Some
2014-07-24T21:48:03Z ski nods
2014-07-24T21:48:08Z samth: so it's less ugly, but doesn't work if the value can be #f
2014-07-24T21:49:23Z jcowan: samth: (hash-ref h k v) of course loses if the values in h are procedures.
2014-07-24T21:49:44Z samth: jcowan: in that you always have to use the procedural version of v
2014-07-24T21:50:54Z samth: rudybot: eval (hash-ref (make-hash) 0 (lambda _ 5))
2014-07-24T21:50:54Z rudybot: samth: ; Value: 5
2014-07-24T21:50:57Z jcowan nods.
2014-07-24T21:52:32Z ski: (another way one could think of to write it would be something like `let rec cat () = match input_char stdin of raise End_of_file => () | c => print_char c; cat ()', iow allowing one to match on an exception raise in the pattern-matching construct)
2014-07-24T21:53:33Z ijp: presumably racket has a const for simplifying things
2014-07-24T21:53:36Z ijp: rudybot: const
2014-07-24T21:53:37Z rudybot: ijp: ; Value: #<procedure:const>
2014-07-24T21:53:43Z ijp: there we go
2014-07-24T21:54:07Z samth: ijp: i've never used it
2014-07-24T21:54:31Z samth: it's more characters than (λ _ 5)
2014-07-24T21:54:47Z ijp: and the same as (thunk 5)
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2014-07-24T21:55:12Z turbofail: clearly it should just be called K
2014-07-24T21:55:16Z turbofail: (K 5)
2014-07-24T21:55:29Z ijp: turbofail: you should have used (K 9)
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2014-07-24T21:55:59Z ijp: rudybot: sometimes I think that most people aren't living their whole life, trying to insert puns wherever possible.
2014-07-24T21:56:02Z rudybot: ijp: there are a few puns, but i will save the surprise
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2014-07-24T23:01:19Z inquiryqueue: Hello. I'm new to Scheme. Any recommendations for a debugger or a way to observe evaluation sequence?
2014-07-24T23:02:02Z Fare: Racket has good debugging tools
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2014-07-24T23:07:56Z inquiryqueue: Fare: Thanks.
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2014-07-25T21:26:41Z ghettonameisha: taylanub, quite so. But truth be told the syntax is a bit more accompanying because closures in general are used as control structures. They basically substitute for normal sequences.
2014-07-25T21:27:22Z ghettonameisha: Like [4 + 2] is syntax for (lambda () (send 4 (message + 2))) if you will
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2014-07-25T23:33:48Z names: omefire turbofail Natch paddymahoney _will_ fikusz teiresias drinkcoffee leppie jkraemer pjdelport ski haroldwu evhan defanor ghettonameisha dkordic ilammy b_jonas Kruppe cmatei tali713 arbscht amoe FracV dpk rudybot Saeren aap_ xian pflanze utkarsh mornfall antoszka zarul joneshf DreamLinuxer araujo cibs Nshag Soft Blkt estevocastro _5kg zbigniew cdidd rmrfchik anannie ivan\ pyro- fizzie C-Keen SirDayBat poucet aoh Khisanth carc LeoNerd alpha-
2014-07-25T23:33:48Z names: NinjaPenguin copec certainty ineiros_ eagleflo gluegadget duncanm mrowe_away acieroid finnrobi dan64 klutometis aksatac_ ft Okasu waxysubs leif Guest30316 choas_ cross renopt ohama ctindall Kryo dca z0d offby1 DerGuteMoritz kwmiebach_ pchrist gf3 balkamos ggherdov nihilatus pygospa ozzloy Neet samth greghendershott jyc george2 ELLIOTTCABLE superjudge_ dytrivedi cky yosafbridge rotty juanfra gnomon kilimanjaro cjh`_ fgudin tsuyoshi sethalves xenophon
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2014-07-26T09:53:02Z DrDuck: chapter 2 of sicp now completed
2014-07-26T09:53:10Z DrDuck: minus 2.97 b :p
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2014-07-27T15:36:39Z yuqian: can i build a web server with an backend of scheme?is there any opinion?
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2014-07-27T15:43:43Z c74d: why not?
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2014-07-27T20:00:55Z rudybot: la la la
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2014-07-28T00:30:37Z preyalone: How can I programmatically access the running Scheme version?
2014-07-28T00:30:47Z preyalone: E.g., in Chicken Scheme
2014-07-28T00:32:14Z preyalone: like common lisp's (lisp-implementation-version)
2014-07-28T00:32:47Z Riastradh: No standard way.
2014-07-28T00:34:39Z preyalone: Ah, (chicken-version)
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2014-07-28T15:27:29Z jcowan: hoi
2014-07-28T15:28:41Z gnomon claps jcowan heartily on the shoulder
2014-07-28T15:28:55Z jcowan winces
2014-07-28T15:28:59Z gnomon: Old chap!  Come in, come in, have a seat.
2014-07-28T15:29:08Z jcowan: I shall
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2014-07-28T15:37:05Z Riastradh: Boo!
2014-07-28T15:37:15Z gnomon: AAAAA
2014-07-28T15:37:40Z gnomon: jiminy cricket, Riastradh, make a sound or something!  Wear a bell!
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2014-07-28T15:42:33Z Riastradh: Would it be less creepy to think you heard a tiny tinkle from afar, but you could not be certain?  Is that the jingling of the keys in the pocket of a passer-by, or something lurking in the shadows you cannot see?  Was that it again, or only your imagination running wild now?
2014-07-28T15:42:53Z Riastradh: *tinkle*
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2014-07-28T15:47:47Z jcowan: A friend of mine yesterday mistook the croaking of frogs for the buzzing of flies.  I only figured this out when I saw her waving at flies that didn't seem to exist.
2014-07-28T15:47:54Z jcowan: (She does have hearing problems.)
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2014-07-28T15:54:37Z Riastradh: How's life in Toronto, gnomon?
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2014-07-28T16:00:52Z Riastradh: And in NYC, jcowan?
2014-07-28T16:01:29Z jcowan: Temperatures are pretty reasonable for this time of year.  I'm working again in a Scala gig, which while not Scheme is not unreasonable.
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2014-07-28T16:25:17Z DrDuck: Could anyone give me a helping hand of what exactly SICP exercise 3.5 is asking me to do?
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2014-07-28T16:30:49Z gnomon: Riastradh, it's not bad!  The company I used to be working for finally folded and sold out to a competitor, which fired almost all the newly acquired staff, so I was funemployed for a few weeks; but I just started a new gig about three weeks ago, and so far so good.  My better half is working out of town until September, but close enough to pop back regularly.
2014-07-28T16:31:03Z gnomon: Riastradh, how about you, how is life treating you?
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2014-07-28T16:38:23Z Riastradh: Life is treating me decently.  I had fun last weekend in NYC at HOPE X (but was too busy to schedule anything outside it).
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2014-07-28T16:40:20Z gnomon: Riastradh, oh nice!  I didn't make it out to that, unfortunately.  What kind of shenanigans did you get up to there?
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2014-07-28T16:47:22Z Riastradh: Shhh, the walls have ears.  But it was great!  The special guest by video-conference was a little disappointing in what he had to say, but it was a trip to see him there, and the keynote preceding him was compelling.  You should come next time!
2014-07-28T16:48:11Z Riastradh: ('Course, I'm sure there were more spooks there than there are here in #scheme.)
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2014-07-28T16:53:47Z jcowan: I suppose he was on video because he'd have problems entering the U.S. as atoms?
2014-07-28T16:59:47Z Riastradh: Yes indeed.
2014-07-28T17:01:45Z gnomon: Riastradh, when is next time?
2014-07-28T17:02:37Z Riastradh: 2016 -- it's biannual.
2014-07-28T17:03:51Z gnomon: Riastradh, that ought to give me plenty of time to clear my calendar.
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2014-07-28T17:26:54Z DrDuck: This damned book. rand-update and rand-init aren't even built into MIT-Scheme, and it uses them at the beginning of section 3.1.2.
2014-07-28T17:27:02Z DrDuck: random-init*
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2014-07-28T17:32:59Z jcowan: DrDuck: You might want to switch to Racket and use their SICP package: http://www.neilvandyke.org/racket-sicp/
2014-07-28T17:33:52Z DrDuck: jcowan: I am using Racket, and the SICP package doesn't contain random-init or rand-update either.
2014-07-28T17:34:44Z DrDuck: I guess this section of code in the book was meant to just be observed and not actually ran since they don't provide those two things.
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2014-07-28T17:53:56Z jcowan: Or it might just be the curse of Lisp
2014-07-28T17:54:18Z jcowan: http://www.winestockwebdesign.com/Essays/Lisp_Curse.html
2014-07-28T17:55:20Z DrDuck: What's that have to do with this?
2014-07-28T17:55:35Z DrDuck: It turns out I don't need those two things for exercise 3.5 anyway
2014-07-28T17:56:16Z jcowan: SICP compatibility packages, like all other Lisp packages, tend to be half-assed 80% implementations.
2014-07-28T17:57:21Z asumu: I think it's more to do with the fact that the discussion of `rand-update` in the book is hypothetical.
2014-07-28T17:57:35Z asumu: Rather than half-assedness of SICP packages.
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2014-07-28T18:01:27Z jcowan: Fair enough
2014-07-28T18:01:38Z jcowan: "half-assity"?
2014-07-28T18:02:50Z gnomon: "semi-gluteality"
2014-07-28T18:03:35Z gnomon: "one-cheekedness"
2014-07-28T18:03:38Z gnomon: "hemibum"
2014-07-28T18:06:37Z Riastradh: Harfness of arse.
2014-07-28T18:10:54Z antoszka: hemibum, lol.
2014-07-28T18:12:08Z jcowan: Hemiprocton, that should be.
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2014-07-28T18:17:44Z Riastradh: What is this that faileth so? / Can it be unbaked dough? / Yes, the smell and hideous hum / Indicat the hemibum!
2014-07-28T18:18:12Z Riastradh: (With apologies for wrecking the bilingual inflection pun.)
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2014-07-28T18:25:33Z jcowan chuckles.
2014-07-28T18:25:45Z jcowan: "unbakèd"
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2014-07-28T18:27:15Z mario-goulart: What's the etymology of "bum"?  In portuguese, it's called "bumbum".
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2014-07-28T18:27:28Z Dokahl: Hello
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2014-07-28T18:28:13Z Dokahl: anyone here?
2014-07-28T18:28:33Z jcowan: Many are here, but few are chosen.
2014-07-28T18:28:39Z Dokahl: :)
2014-07-28T18:28:58Z Dokahl: I've got a (probbaly nooby) guestion
2014-07-28T18:29:03Z Dokahl: *questio
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2014-07-28T18:29:26Z jcowan: mario-goulart: It's one of the small set of sound-symbolic words: it just sort of resembles what it names.
2014-07-28T18:30:17Z Dokahl: (cons '(a) '(b c d)) evals to ((a) b c d)
2014-07-28T18:30:35Z Dokahl: why doen't it evaluate to ((a) (b c d)) ?
2014-07-28T18:31:13Z jcowan: Because the effect of cons is to put something on the front of a list.
2014-07-28T18:31:15Z ijp: cons adds an element onto the front of another list, it does not form a list of two elements
2014-07-28T18:31:16Z mario-goulart: jcowan: Hmmm.  Interesting.  Maybe the portuguese term derives from english then, because in portuguese it sounds like "boom-boom".
2014-07-28T18:32:01Z jcowan: It was probably pronounced that way in earlier English too, before the Great Vowel Shift that made our spellings so perverse from the general European point of view.
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2014-07-28T18:32:36Z Riastradh: So...preposterous, one might say, if we're discussing the literary nature of bums.
2014-07-28T18:33:04Z jcowan: Backasswards into the future.
2014-07-28T18:33:32Z gnomon: Sure to become the butt of many jokes.
2014-07-28T18:33:56Z vraid: Dokahl: (list '(a) '(b c d)) evaluates to ((a) (b c d))
2014-07-28T18:37:18Z gnomon: Dokahl, do you know how CONS tacks together two atoms?
2014-07-28T18:37:35Z Riastradh: Superglue!
2014-07-28T18:38:33Z ijp glues some glitter to the atoms
2014-07-28T18:38:55Z Dokahl: the thing is, i'm trying to figure out how to represent lists/atoms in a simple datastructure
2014-07-28T18:38:57Z jcowan: No, it's definitely removable.  Ipair is superglue.
2014-07-28T18:39:12Z jcowan: (I'm working on an immutable-list SRFI based on SRFI 1)
2014-07-28T18:39:21Z ijp: you mean like srfi 101
2014-07-28T18:39:25Z gnomon: Glitter is infectious filth and should be banned.
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2014-07-28T18:47:46Z samth: jcowan: srfi 1 makes a nice immutable list library
2014-07-28T18:48:03Z samth: Once you get rid of list mutation
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2014-07-28T18:48:51Z ijp: and nothing of value was lost
2014-07-28T18:53:50Z samth: ijp: indeed
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2014-07-28T19:47:31Z jcowan: samth: Exactly what I am doing, along with circular lists; and adding some conversion routines:  pair->ipair, list->ilist, tree->itree and their opposites, plus gtree->tree and gtree->itree to convert trees with both mutable and immutable cells to all-mutable or all-immutable.  And lastly iapply.
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2014-07-28T20:11:31Z samth: jcowan: based on the i prefix, I don't think that's what I was suggesting
2014-07-28T20:12:07Z samth: Since those would, under my suggestion, all be the identity function
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2014-07-28T21:23:38Z xuitlacoche: Is it slightly off to think of a continuation as the state of the program (stack *and* heap *and* registers) at the time the continuation was stored? Maybe with the exception of any arguments passed in the continuation invocation.
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2014-07-28T21:25:08Z Riastradh: Not the heap.
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2014-07-28T21:27:15Z ijp: it's funny how often people need the machine version of the story
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2014-07-28T21:28:28Z ilammy: Math is hard.
2014-07-28T21:28:57Z Riastradh: It's funny how not everyone learns things the same way.
2014-07-28T21:29:27Z ijp: well obviously
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2014-07-28T21:32:21Z xuitlacoche: Not the heap.
2014-07-28T21:32:34Z xuitlacoche: So the arguments would be put there, I suppose.
2014-07-28T21:33:26Z ijp: xuitlacoche: if the heap was restored, then in a deterministic language, all invoking a continuation could do is create a loop
2014-07-28T21:33:49Z xuitlacoche: Good point.
2014-07-28T21:35:15Z xuitlacoche: I am trying to grasp the Yinyang puzzle.
2014-07-28T21:35:42Z xuitlacoche: It's not the two easiest lines of code I've studied.
2014-07-28T21:36:46Z ijp: I'd be interested to know where that puzzle originated
2014-07-28T21:39:03Z ijp: I tried writing up an explanation of it *looks* 3 years ago, but I don't think I did a good job
2014-07-28T21:39:59Z ijp: http://shift-reset.com/tmp/yinyang.org
2014-07-28T21:41:10Z xuitlacoche: I'll have a look.
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2014-07-28T21:46:04Z xuitlacoche: Thank you :)
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2014-07-28T21:58:21Z Dokahl: Hey
2014-07-28T21:58:51Z Dokahl: I'm trying to write a small Scheme interpreter (just for educational purposes)
2014-07-28T21:59:54Z Dokahl: The specification says (about cons): "Returns a newly allocated pair whose car is obj1 and whose cdr is obj2."
2014-07-28T22:00:38Z Dokahl: Does this mean I have to make a copy of both arguments in another location?
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2014-07-28T22:02:46Z evhan: Dokahl: No. The *pair* is newly-allocated, but its contents needn't be.
2014-07-28T22:03:02Z Dokahl: ah
2014-07-28T22:03:24Z Dokahl: so i can just point it to the old values?
2014-07-28T22:04:21Z evhan: Yep.
2014-07-28T22:04:37Z Dokahl: ok, thanks !
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2014-07-28T22:08:51Z ijp: anyone else get the feeling that dokahl has not actually used scheme?
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2014-07-28T23:00:39Z turbofail: has that ever stopped someone from trying to implement it?
2014-07-28T23:02:52Z ijp: no
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2014-07-29T04:53:31Z prsteele: I'm sorry this is MIT Scheme specific, but: (cf "example.scm") creates example.com; how do I run example.com?
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2014-07-29T05:01:45Z offby1: beats me :-|
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2014-07-29T15:25:40Z DrDuck: So from early chapter 3 I can see as well as having constructors and selectors in a functional way with abstraction barriers, in an object way selectors can be embedded within a constructor through message passing yeah? I still don't entirely understand when which is preferable.
2014-07-29T15:25:50Z DrDuck: Early chapter 3 of sicp.
2014-07-29T15:28:02Z xyh: functional way or the high way
2014-07-29T15:32:53Z pjb:  DrDuck: well, for one thing, closures are almost always closed: you cannot add a function to a closure once it's defined.  On the other hand, object systems let you dynamically add methods after having defined the class.
2014-07-29T15:33:10Z pjb: So you would use one or the other, depending on how "finished" your program is when you write it.
2014-07-29T15:33:30Z ijp: *some* object systems
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2014-07-29T15:41:03Z DrDuck: pjb: "you cannot add a function to a closure once it's defined.  On the other hand, object systems let you dynamically add methods after having defined the class." -- What do you mean by that? I'm working on exercise 3.5 right now and thought it would be easier to use rectangles as message passing objects in order to write less code, but I recall making rectangle abstractions in exercise 2.3 by using abstraction barriers: https://ww
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2014-07-29T15:41:42Z DrDuck: pjb: What do you mean by not being able to add a function to a closure? I'm still sort of lost on what a closure actually is. Is that data abstraction fo a rectangle a closure?
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2014-07-29T15:42:02Z DrDuck: Because it looks like I could add whatever I needed to it, but it would just be more code.
2014-07-29T15:42:13Z DrDuck: Relative to the rectangle object.
2014-07-29T15:45:57Z pjb: DrDuck: a closure is an object.
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2014-07-29T15:46:50Z pjb: Once the object is created, the slots and functions inside the closure is fixed, it cannot be modified.
2014-07-29T15:47:36Z pjb: (define o (let ((x 1)) (lambda (m) (cond ((eqv? m 'get) x) ((eqv? m 'inc) (set! x (+ x 1)))))))
2014-07-29T15:48:03Z pjb: Now there's no way to do anything so that (o 'dec) will decrement the slot x in the object o.
2014-07-29T15:49:12Z pjb: (defclass c () ((x :initform 1))) (defmethod get ((o c)) (slot-value o 'x)) (defmethod inc ((o c)) (set-slot-value! o 'x (+ 1 (slot-value o 'x))))  (define o (make-instance 'c))
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2014-07-29T15:49:43Z pjb: Now you can (defmethod dec ((o c)) (set-slot-value! o 'x (-  (slot-value o 'x) 1))) and call (dec o) to decrement the slot x of the previously created object o.
2014-07-29T15:50:15Z pjb: Now, of course, you could define the closure to be able to take dynamically created methods.
2014-07-29T15:50:36Z DrDuck: Alright well how does one know what's a better design decision between using abstraction layers or objects/closures, like the example I linked. Just all depends on what causes you to write less code, or?
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2014-07-29T15:53:07Z vraid: DrDuck: having simple code is more important than having little code
2014-07-29T15:53:50Z pjb: Try them both!
2014-07-29T15:53:52Z DrDuck: Abstraction layers are simpler to read than object message passing style?
2014-07-29T15:53:56Z DrDuck: pjb: I am!
2014-07-29T15:54:29Z DrDuck: abstraction barriers*
2014-07-29T15:55:17Z pjb: That's the same thing really.  The only difference may be when you use inheritance with objects: it is them harder to know from the text of the program what method is actuall called, because the method dispatching will depend on the actual class of the receiver at run-time.
2014-07-29T15:55:46Z pjb: But you can have the same dynamic indirections with usual functional abstractions.
2014-07-29T15:56:27Z pjb: And in any case, this is a problem when doing a low level reading of the code.  If you read over the abstraction level, well, it's abstracted out.
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2014-07-29T15:58:21Z pjb: Basically, when you write: (launch-missile sillo1 target2) it just doesn't matter whether launch-missile is a mere function a closure, or sending a message.  It doesn't matter what type or class sillo1 and target2 are.  The only thing that matters, is that abstractly, some destruction will occur at target2 when the missile in sillo1 reaches it.
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2014-07-29T15:59:03Z jcowan: Or so they hope.
2014-07-29T15:59:16Z pjb: The choice between one implementation strategy and another, is directed by a lot of considerations, often entirely non-technical considerations.
2014-07-29T15:59:52Z pjb: Eg. the question may be that there are missiles en-route toward your sillo, and your launch-missile function must run before half an hour.
2014-07-29T15:59:53Z DrDuck: SICP seems to leave a lot of implementation strategy up to the reader.
2014-07-29T16:00:05Z DrDuck: I don't know if I like that or not.
2014-07-29T16:00:43Z pjb: It tries to teach you principles.  You have to apply those principle in the current circumstances.  Often you just don't have a choice, it's the customer or your boss who decides.
2014-07-29T16:01:01Z DrDuck: Really? O_O
2014-07-29T16:01:05Z pjb: Yes.
2014-07-29T16:01:22Z DrDuck: Wow, that makes things easier. I thought professional programmers had to make design decisions all the time.
2014-07-29T16:01:39Z pjb: But one nice thing with lisp, is that you can write an abstract, principled program, and then write a meta program (eg. macros) to convert it into a concrete program matching the current requirements.
2014-07-29T16:01:48Z jcowan: Often they do, because the people who should make them default on them.
2014-07-29T16:02:11Z pjb: And because people who make design decisions for them are not programmers and make silly decisions.
2014-07-29T16:02:19Z vraid: DrDuck: depends on the customers
2014-07-29T16:02:30Z DrDuck: This gives me more hope on becoming a professional programmer.
2014-07-29T16:03:28Z jcowan: Professionals in general always struggle with this.  If you go to a lawyer and say "I want to do thus-and-so", sometimes they will just find a strategy for doing thus-and-so, but sometimes he will try to talk you out of it in favor of something else.
2014-07-29T16:03:41Z jcowan: s/do/accomplish
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2014-07-29T16:04:42Z pjb: For example, design decisions impact the cost of development a lot.  This is a strong constraint in general.  So instead of implementing it the best way, you have to do it the cheapest way.  Of if the customer asks way X, you have to tell him way Y is the only way to do it under budget B.
2014-07-29T16:05:02Z pjb: That's really boring.
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2014-07-29T16:06:27Z jcowan: Service, quality, price: pick two.
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2014-07-29T16:20:14Z DrDuck: pjb: So a lot of time programmers in industry don't get to do neat things like mixing multiple paradigms to create one application for risk of unnecessary time spent? That type of thing usually has to be left to stuff at home?
2014-07-29T16:20:38Z DrDuck: I guess that makes sense.
2014-07-29T16:20:48Z DrDuck: Time is money, gotta run a business, etc.
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2014-07-29T16:37:46Z pjb: Right.
2014-07-29T16:38:08Z pjb: Perhaps, if you want to have fun programming, you should sell fries on the beach, and just hack at home.
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2014-07-29T16:51:21Z DrDuck: Me?
2014-07-29T16:51:25Z DrDuck: Just an observation.
2014-07-29T16:53:07Z pjb: Or start up a company in IT, do shit that sells (eg. an Yo app), and once you've got the $millions, have fun (eg. numenta).
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2014-07-29T16:55:14Z DrDuck: I wouldn't mind selling fries at the beach :p
2014-07-29T16:57:13Z pjb: Really, I should have done that: you get sun, sex, sea and shekels for 4 months, and then you can spend the rest of the year having fun with programming…
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2014-07-29T17:16:31Z jcowan: It's the "sun" that's the bad part.
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2014-07-29T18:55:24Z hjolt: I am working on SICP 1.2.2 (http://mitpress.mit.edu/sicp/full-text/book/book-Z-H-11.html#%_sec_1.2.6) but it seems that the runtime function does not count in milliseconds or has some other behavior. I see the (process-time-clock) and (real-time-clock) functions as well but they both seem to be returning 0 as well
2014-07-29T18:56:33Z jcowan: Using which Scheme?
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2014-07-29T19:02:17Z ijp: hjolt: on a few occasions, SICP assumes you are using MIT Scheme, if this is not the case, you'll need to look up docs for equivalents
2014-07-29T19:11:15Z hjolt: ijp: I am using mit-scheme
2014-07-29T19:11:39Z hjolt: ijp: Release 9.2 || Microcode 15.3 || Runtime 15.7 || SF 4.41 || LIAR/x86-64 4.118 || Edwin 3.116
2014-07-29T19:12:44Z kongtomorrow: what do you get from (runtime)? Docs look like it ought to be in seconds as a floating point.
2014-07-29T19:13:12Z hjolt: uhh, well maybe emacs is loading a different scheme >
2014-07-29T19:13:13Z hjolt: ?
2014-07-29T19:13:42Z hjolt: (runtime) ; => 0
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2014-07-29T19:15:34Z hjolt: I just verified that emacs is loading the same version of scheme
2014-07-29T19:16:48Z jcowan: You might want to try the SICP package in Racket.
2014-07-29T19:17:18Z kongtomorrow: that definitely works. that's how I did SICP.
2014-07-29T19:17:28Z kongtomorrow: including that exercise
2014-07-29T19:18:18Z hjolt: Was hoping to use mit-scheme for the entire book :| Thanks for the suggestion.
2014-07-29T19:18:29Z hjolt: kongtomorrow: Which docs were you reading? the Racket docs?
2014-07-29T19:18:46Z kongtomorrow: hjolt: http://web.mit.edu/scheme_v9.0.1/doc/mit-scheme-ref/Machine-Time.html
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2014-07-29T19:20:39Z ilammy: Well, maybe the reason for (process-time-clock) and (real-time-clock) returning zero is that these calls are the whole program?
2014-07-29T19:21:26Z hjolt: kongtomorrow: Thanks
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2014-07-30T18:26:04Z taylanub: what is a Scheme implementation that will do aggressive constant propagation and partial evaluation even on records?  I'd love to see if there's a Scheme impl right now that can really do what I suggest at the beginning of the "Performance" section (at the bottom) of the README here: https://gitorious.org/taylan-guile/bytestructures/
2014-07-30T18:26:28Z taylanub: (well without context that README section might be rather meaningless)
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2014-07-30T18:29:58Z jcowan: I probably have the broadest knowledge of Schemes, but it doesn't tend to extend to their compilers.  I have never heard of such a thing.
2014-07-30T18:30:30Z jcowan: If you looked at StructuresCowan I'd appreciate it; it tries to cover the same general idea.
2014-07-30T18:30:53Z samth: taylanub: chez might do that, stalin will most likely do that (but not actually support your program), you should try running on gambit/bigloo
2014-07-30T18:31:10Z samth: taylanub: benchmarks on guile are unlikely to tell you much about serious compilers
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2014-07-30T18:50:15Z taylanub: jcowan: the limitations I saw in StructuresCowan were the original motivator to me starting that work :)
2014-07-30T18:50:25Z jcowan: Okay, I'll read it carefully.
2014-07-30T18:50:59Z jcowan: FP question: is there a way to implement CL MISMATCH (reports the index at which two lists cease to be element-wise equal) using standard HOPs?
2014-07-30T18:51:35Z ijp: index + map eqv?
2014-07-30T18:52:12Z taylanub: I might be way ahead of myself and missing some fundamental differences that make my approach un-optimizable or something like that, that's what I'm trying to figure out.  If an implementation can indeed optimize my approach to bare bytevector accesses in the general case, then I might lobby for my approach (or something closer to it) to become standard.
2014-07-30T18:52:17Z ijp: rudybot: (begin (require srfi/1) (define a '(0 1 2 3 4 a 6 7)) (define b '(0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7)))
2014-07-30T18:52:17Z rudybot: ijp: Done.
2014-07-30T18:52:42Z ijp: actually, just list-index
2014-07-30T18:52:55Z ijp: rudybot: (list-index (lambda (x y) (not (eqv? x y))) a b)
2014-07-30T18:52:56Z rudybot: ijp: ; Value: 5
2014-07-30T18:53:39Z taylanub: samth: I'll try those, thanks.  I know Guile currently has two major limitations that prevent the optimization my library needs.  (1. Optimizing on immutable records, 2. optimizing across module boundaries)
2014-07-30T18:56:47Z jcowan: ijp: Thanks.  The Haskell answer was (drop-while (lambda (x y) (equal? x y)) (zip list1 list2)), which works well in a lazy language.
2014-07-30T18:57:31Z taylanub: jcowan: FWIW on the rnrs branch of that git repo the library is split into valid RnRS libs, though I didn't test them yet.
2014-07-30T18:58:38Z jcowan: okay
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2014-07-30T22:19:42Z ilammy: Hai!
2014-07-30T22:19:51Z ilammy: Can anybody help me explain this: https://gist.github.com/ilammy/0070af09801a85fab6be ?
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2014-07-30T22:22:15Z sethalves: what about it?  the fact that it only works in r5?
2014-07-30T22:22:59Z sethalves: (err r6)
2014-07-30T22:23:08Z ilammy: Yep.
2014-07-30T22:23:25Z ilammy: I guees the ,@() part is the reason, but I can't grasp why.
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2014-07-30T22:29:06Z ijp: in r5rs, (4.3.2) ellipsis are only allowed at the end of a list of <pattern>
2014-07-30T22:29:41Z ijp: no idea about r7rs
2014-07-30T22:29:56Z ilammy: Well, it could be shortened to just `(,@()).
2014-07-30T22:30:11Z ilammy: In r6rs this yields an empty list.
2014-07-30T22:30:19Z ilammy: In r5rs this is a syntax error :\
2014-07-30T22:30:48Z ijp: okay, then there is two reasons it wouldn't work in the r5rs
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2014-07-30T22:31:36Z evhan: ilammy: You don't need the ellipses for that anyway.
2014-07-30T22:31:56Z ijp: I'm not sure why the r6rs would allow ,@()
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2014-07-30T22:33:04Z ilammy: I'm using Racket. Maybe it's just some Racket syntactic oddity. Just like the one with double dots...
2014-07-30T22:33:21Z ijp: () is not a valid expression, so I would expect that to be an error
2014-07-30T22:34:35Z vraid: ijp: it's valid with racket macros
2014-07-30T22:34:58Z vraid: oh, nvm
2014-07-30T22:35:09Z ijp: ilammy: this seems like a bug in #lang r6rs to me
2014-07-30T22:39:55Z ilammy: Yeah, looks like it is. Just checked a couple of other implementations, they also treat () as they should be.
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2014-07-31T00:53:00Z xyh: I have written some doc of my language, ::  https://bitbucket.org/cicada-language/cicada , please read "cicada/readings/tutorial/introduction.html" and give me some advices.
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2014-07-31T19:34:12Z pflanze: Hello. Is there a name for the type of either a single value or a list of values?
2014-07-31T19:35:09Z pflanze: Say, either a single symbol, or (possibly empty) list of symbols: 'foo or '() or '(foo) or '(foo bar)
2014-07-31T19:35:36Z ijp: there is no special name for it
2014-07-31T19:35:45Z pflanze: I'd love to have one.
2014-07-31T19:36:01Z ijp: make one up
2014-07-31T19:36:10Z pflanze: I'm finding myself rather often taking advantage of that principle, just missing a name for it :)
2014-07-31T19:36:45Z pflanze: I've already standardized on upcasing the S, for variable names, e.g. (lambda (symbolS) ...) for the above example
2014-07-31T19:37:33Z pflanze: But now I need a predicate to check that symbolS is really containing symbolS; if it were symbols, then my predicate would be (list-of symbol?),
2014-07-31T19:37:41Z pflanze: now I need (foo-of symbol?).
2014-07-31T19:38:00Z ijp: if you included (foo . bar), it'd just be a dotted list of symbols
2014-07-31T19:38:14Z pflanze: dotted-list-of, hmm, good point.
2014-07-31T19:38:17Z ijp: because 'foo is trivially a dotted list
2014-07-31T19:38:26Z pflanze: yep.
2014-07-31T19:40:55Z pflanze: I guess it will be a little bit of a stretch for fellow coders who run across this, as normally no dot would be involved, but logically it's correct.
2014-07-31T19:45:35Z pflanze: Hm, just realizing, I did standardize on "improper" for functions, e.g. improper-map, improper-fold etc.
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2014-07-31T19:45:57Z pflanze: I should probably rename these to dotted-map etc., too, or go with improper-list-of instead.
2014-07-31T19:46:23Z pflanze: I wonder which you think is better?
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2014-07-31T20:23:52Z xyh: pflanze: I think what you asking, is the original meaning of "sexp"l
2014-07-31T20:26:32Z ijp: xyh: not quite
2014-07-31T20:27:04Z xyh: in the "Recursive Functions of Symbolic Expressions and their Computation by Machine (Part I)",
2014-07-31T20:27:06Z ijp: type is not recursive
2014-07-31T20:27:10Z xyh: John McCarthy use a recursive-definition to define this type of (or set of) data as "Symbol-Expression".
2014-07-31T20:27:17Z xyh: oh! i see
2014-07-31T20:31:03Z nisstyre: ijp: you mean '(foo . bar) right?
2014-07-31T20:31:14Z nisstyre: since symbols don't get autoquoted
2014-07-31T20:31:20Z nisstyre: er, those symbols don't
2014-07-31T20:34:29Z ijp: sigh, yes
2014-07-31T20:34:47Z ijp: if you want another thing to nitpick about, (foo . bar) isn't valid anyway if bar is not a literal list
2014-07-31T20:35:46Z nisstyre: haha, sorry for being an ass
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