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ZZZzzz…) 2014-06-01T05:25:16Z JokerDoom joined #scheme 2014-06-01T05:53:38Z jim: thrfr ts nt sntnc 2014-06-01T06:04:22Z offby1: sure it is! 2014-06-01T06:04:29Z offby1: it's a perfectly cromulent sentence. 2014-06-01T06:19:45Z phax quit (Quit: phax) 2014-06-01T06:23:54Z atomx_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-01T06:24:26Z atomx_ joined #scheme 2014-06-01T06:27:36Z racycle_ quit (Quit: ZZZzzz…) 2014-06-01T06:39:00Z daviid joined #scheme 2014-06-01T06:42:11Z Saigut joined #scheme 2014-06-01T07:12:09Z gravicappa joined #scheme 2014-06-01T07:22:11Z Natch quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-01T07:39:31Z robot-beethoven joined #scheme 2014-06-01T07:41:50Z gravicappa quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2014-06-01T08:03:17Z oleo quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2014-06-01T08:16:09Z daviid quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2014-06-01T08:16:41Z oleo joined #scheme 2014-06-01T08:42:50Z pnpuff joined #scheme 2014-06-01T08:43:04Z pnpuff left #scheme 2014-06-01T08:50:04Z matheus23 joined #scheme 2014-06-01T09:01:21Z robot-beethoven quit (Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)) 2014-06-01T09:04:47Z rszeno joined #scheme 2014-06-01T09:05:45Z amgarchIn9 quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2014-06-01T09:06:46Z MouldyOldBones quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-01T09:08:24Z MouldyOldBones joined #scheme 2014-06-01T09:08:41Z arbscht quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-06-01T09:10:13Z arbscht joined #scheme 2014-06-01T09:10:59Z vishesh quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2014-06-01T09:16:42Z hiroakip joined #scheme 2014-06-01T09:17:12Z hiroaki joined #scheme 2014-06-01T09:17:54Z hiroaki quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-06-01T09:25:16Z MouldyOldBones quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2014-06-01T09:29:12Z jewel_ joined #scheme 2014-06-01T09:32:59Z DGASAU quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2014-06-01T09:34:26Z DGASAU joined #scheme 2014-06-01T09:36:08Z MouldyOldBones joined #scheme 2014-06-01T09:37:55Z Saigut quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2014-06-01T09:39:29Z vraaid is now known as vraid 2014-06-01T09:39:42Z Saigut joined #scheme 2014-06-01T09:42:23Z taylanub quit (Disconnected by services) 2014-06-01T09:42:46Z taylanub joined #scheme 2014-06-01T09:46:30Z Saigut left #scheme 2014-06-01T10:09:35Z FractalFive quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-01T10:10:52Z hkBst joined #scheme 2014-06-01T10:42:32Z mutley89 joined #scheme 2014-06-01T10:59:45Z Kryo joined #scheme 2014-06-01T11:19:28Z Khisanth quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-06-01T11:20:49Z klltkr joined #scheme 2014-06-01T11:26:58Z mutley89 quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-06-01T11:49:56Z arbscht quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-06-01T11:51:18Z arbscht joined #scheme 2014-06-01T12:12:24Z jeapostrophe joined #scheme 2014-06-01T12:24:15Z c74d quit (Excess Flood) 2014-06-01T12:27:11Z c74d joined #scheme 2014-06-01T12:32:30Z klltkr quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. 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I'd prefer emacs over the Racket IDE, if possible. 2014-06-01T15:50:58Z leppie quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-01T15:51:55Z offby1: I suspect it's a little hard, since if I recall correctly, the SICP package imports something to draw pictures 2014-06-01T15:52:35Z DGASAU quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2014-06-01T15:54:25Z jeremyheiler: i could be wrong, but i believe gui emacs draws pictures fine. 2014-06-01T15:55:26Z leppie joined #scheme 2014-06-01T15:57:23Z cbsw quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-06-01T15:59:50Z Riastradh quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2014-06-01T16:02:54Z daviid joined #scheme 2014-06-01T16:05:48Z DrDuck: seems it does indeed work! 2014-06-01T16:06:19Z qu1j0t3: :-) 2014-06-01T16:06:24Z DrDuck: went with ,enter "file location" and everything worked out fine 2014-06-01T16:07:07Z Khisanth joined #scheme 2014-06-01T16:08:01Z DrDuck: emacs is one powerful tool wowy 2014-06-01T16:12:34Z b4283 quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2014-06-01T16:16:50Z garietyxxx joined #scheme 2014-06-01T16:17:01Z garietyxxx: anyone want to see my scheme tattoo? 2014-06-01T16:18:43Z hottea: yeah 2014-06-01T16:18:46Z b4283 joined #scheme 2014-06-01T16:19:55Z DrDuck: i do! 2014-06-01T16:20:30Z garietyxxx: hottea: DrDuck: https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BpDovDkIQAEpV1b.jpg 2014-06-01T16:20:44Z DrDuck: awesome 2014-06-01T16:21:08Z garietyxxx: thank you. hurt like a bitch on the ribcage. 2014-06-01T16:21:20Z garietyxxx: obviously, photo is mirrored 2014-06-01T16:21:42Z qu1j0t3 left #scheme 2014-06-01T16:23:44Z hottea: garietyxxx: chinese? 2014-06-01T16:23:49Z vraid: garietyxxx: here you go http://i.imgur.com/3N8yh0P.jpg 2014-06-01T16:24:29Z garietyxxx: hottea: no, it's a lambda 2014-06-01T16:24:38Z garietyxxx: vraid: thank you 2014-06-01T16:24:47Z garietyxxx: once I find an SD card I'll take a nice pic 2014-06-01T16:25:08Z hottea: garietyxxx: are you chinese? you know, yellow skin 2014-06-01T16:25:19Z garietyxxx: hottea: lel 2014-06-01T16:25:23Z garietyxxx: no, I'm from Portland. 2014-06-01T16:25:25Z vraid: that is probably the lighting. 2014-06-01T16:25:46Z garietyxxx: yes it was taken with macbook camera 2014-06-01T16:25:56Z garietyxxx: this is me: https://pbs.twimg.com/profile_images/472075032420569088/q_VIiZIM.jpeg 2014-06-01T16:26:32Z brianmwaters joined #scheme 2014-06-01T16:27:46Z hottea: garietyxxx: cute 2014-06-01T16:28:03Z garietyxxx: hottea: ty 2014-06-01T16:29:02Z hottea: ty? what 2014-06-01T16:29:48Z garietyxxx: hottea: thank you for "cute" 2014-06-01T16:29:58Z garietyxxx: I'm very anglo 2014-06-01T16:31:33Z hottea: oh, I don't there is a short for thank you... 2014-06-01T16:36:50Z hottea left #scheme 2014-06-01T16:56:58Z garietyxxx left #scheme 2014-06-01T17:09:15Z zannix joined #scheme 2014-06-01T17:15:25Z amgarchIn9 joined #scheme 2014-06-01T17:17:38Z b4283 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-06-01T17:17:43Z b4284 joined #scheme 2014-06-01T17:50:10Z zannix quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-01T18:22:11Z hkBst joined #scheme 2014-06-01T18:25:32Z rszeno joined #scheme 2014-06-01T18:29:01Z pjb: Well done. Now NSA drones can target you easily :-) 2014-06-01T18:30:33Z taylanub: Scheme tattoo? What the hell is going on? 2014-06-01T18:32:07Z pjb: Remember, Church's Lambda Calculus! 2014-06-01T18:33:12Z george2 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-01T18:33:30Z george2 joined #scheme 2014-06-01T18:40:39Z brianmwaters quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2014-06-01T18:54:08Z FractalFive quit (Quit: leaving) 2014-06-01T18:54:28Z FractalFive joined #scheme 2014-06-01T18:55:13Z b4284 quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2014-06-01T19:03:53Z jewel_ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-06-01T19:07:57Z hkBst quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-01T19:12:32Z bjz joined #scheme 2014-06-01T19:16:20Z mutley89 joined #scheme 2014-06-01T19:27:04Z phax joined #scheme 2014-06-01T19:31:02Z kazimir42 joined #scheme 2014-06-01T19:35:01Z civodul joined #scheme 2014-06-01T19:52:16Z taylanub quit (Disconnected by services) 2014-06-01T19:52:36Z taylanub joined #scheme 2014-06-01T20:01:31Z hiroakip quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2014-06-01T20:03:32Z Riastradh joined #scheme 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It is more fundamental. (define (abs x) ...) is an abbreviation for (define abs (lambda (x) ...)). 2014-06-02T02:33:22Z george2 joined #scheme 2014-06-02T02:34:07Z diamonds: so `lambda` is for readability? 2014-06-02T02:34:32Z offby1: other way around 2014-06-02T02:34:58Z offby1: way back in the mists of time, Dr McCarthy invented a primitive language called Lisp that had just a very few keywords; "lambda" was one of them 2014-06-02T02:35:22Z offby1: since then, people got tired of writing (define abs (lambda (pectorals))) and chose instead to write (define (abs pectorals)) 2014-06-02T02:35:34Z diamonds: ha 2014-06-02T02:35:37Z diamonds: OK thanks :) 2014-06-02T02:36:09Z diamonds: I'm getting stuck very early on in SICP... "write a function that takes 3 nums & ... returns the largest 2" 2014-06-02T02:36:50Z diamonds: I don't think they've covered enough scheme syntax yet for that exercise... looking online I see `max` is built into the language. Well I didn't know that! :) 2014-06-02T02:37:05Z diamonds: anyway thanks. lisp looks fun so far 2014-06-02T02:53:39Z annodomini joined #scheme 2014-06-02T03:02:37Z pjdelport quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2014-06-02T03:03:00Z racycle_ joined #scheme 2014-06-02T03:03:02Z jim: scheme... has syntax?! 2014-06-02T03:03:24Z cbsw quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2014-06-02T03:05:43Z jim: and, you'll see more what lambdas are soon enough. So have you seen cond and if? 2014-06-02T03:07:10Z sheilong quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-06-02T03:10:21Z BitPuffin quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2014-06-02T03:12:22Z sheilong joined #scheme 2014-06-02T03:16:43Z frkout quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-02T03:17:19Z frkout joined #scheme 2014-06-02T03:25:05Z MouldyOldBones quit (Write error: Broken pipe) 2014-06-02T03:25:05Z Riastradh quit (Write error: Broken pipe) 2014-06-02T03:25:40Z vishesh joined #scheme 2014-06-02T03:35:11Z annodomini quit (Quit: annodomini) 2014-06-02T03:35:19Z Riastradh joined #scheme 2014-06-02T03:38:03Z phax quit (Quit: phax) 2014-06-02T03:46:37Z jyc: I'm toying with the idea of implementing a subset of scheme as a scripting language within an emulator I am writing. Which of the R_RSes would be a nice base to implement from? So far I have been looking at R3RS. 2014-06-02T03:47:14Z Planet_EN quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-02T03:48:17Z MouldyOldBones joined #scheme 2014-06-02T03:52:47Z jusss joined #scheme 2014-06-02T04:01:04Z jusss quit (Quit: xxxxxxx) 2014-06-02T04:02:18Z DrDuck quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-02T04:04:57Z jim: some implementations are probably already embeddable 2014-06-02T04:07:19Z ddp_ joined #scheme 2014-06-02T04:08:33Z ddp__ joined #scheme 2014-06-02T04:08:52Z mrowe is now known as mrowe_away 2014-06-02T04:09:42Z ASau` joined #scheme 2014-06-02T04:12:02Z ddp__ quit (Client Quit) 2014-06-02T04:12:10Z ddp_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-02T04:12:34Z ASau quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-02T04:12:37Z diamonds: I'm confused about returning from procedures 2014-06-02T04:12:49Z diamonds: I know the result of the last expression is returned.... 2014-06-02T04:12:58Z jim: ok 2014-06-02T04:13:10Z diamonds: but this errors: (define (foo arg1)(arg1)) (foo 1) 2014-06-02T04:13:15Z jim: so if you could say more about your confusion 2014-06-02T04:13:18Z BitPuffin joined #scheme 2014-06-02T04:13:19Z diamonds: if I change to (+ 0 arg1) it does not 2014-06-02T04:13:28Z ddp_ joined #scheme 2014-06-02T04:13:29Z diamonds: must I (+ 0 ...) if I wish to return a number? 2014-06-02T04:13:59Z diamonds: how can I turn `number` into a legitimate value to return is my question 2014-06-02T04:14:52Z jim: in (define (foo arg1)(arg1)) what do you actually want to do with arg1? 2014-06-02T04:15:35Z diamonds: sorry, my actual function looks thus http://hastebin.com/ofipelawoc.lisp 2014-06-02T04:15:54Z jim: here are some questions... 2014-06-02T04:16:25Z jim: If I say: (define foo (lambda (a))) 2014-06-02T04:16:27Z diamonds: I reduced to the `foo` example in hopes that that would clearly demonstrate/isolate my issue 2014-06-02T04:16:55Z jim: then, I say: a 2014-06-02T04:17:06Z jim: what happens? 2014-06-02T04:18:25Z diamonds: jim, I get "bad syntax in lambda a" 2014-06-02T04:18:32Z diamonds: lambda: bad syntax in: (lambda (a)) 2014-06-02T04:18:54Z jim: what scheme are you using? 2014-06-02T04:19:17Z diamonds: racket 2014-06-02T04:19:34Z jim: lemme check something 2014-06-02T04:20:37Z diamonds: can you give me a hint if i have a syntax error? 2014-06-02T04:20:50Z jim: hmm. I'm actually getting similar results. one sec 2014-06-02T04:20:53Z diamonds: I'm very new to scheme I assume I'm making a very silly mistake 2014-06-02T04:21:34Z ASau` is now known as ASau 2014-06-02T04:22:23Z jyc: doesn't (lambda (a)) need a body? 2014-06-02T04:22:32Z jyc: diamonds, when you do (define (foo arg1) (arg1)) 2014-06-02T04:22:33Z jim: yeah, don't worry too much. apparantly an empty lambda is a bad form 2014-06-02T04:22:42Z jyc: you are defining foo as a procedure that takes an argument, arg1 2014-06-02T04:22:52Z jyc: and then calls it 2014-06-02T04:22:52Z diamonds nods 2014-06-02T04:23:04Z jyc: (foo 1) gives foo 1, which is a number, not a procedure 2014-06-02T04:23:10Z jyc: you can't call a number, thus the error 2014-06-02T04:23:15Z diamonds: ah 2014-06-02T04:23:23Z diamonds: so it should read (define (foo arg1) arg1) 2014-06-02T04:23:31Z jyc: I believe so 2014-06-02T04:23:37Z diamonds: ok ty 2014-06-02T04:23:52Z jim: what is it you want to do with arg1 in this case? 2014-06-02T04:24:21Z diamonds: well I'm reading SICP & I didn't know that `max` is a standard procedure so I started writing it 2014-06-02T04:24:45Z diamonds: I have something that looks like http://hastebin.com/cizohumoka.lisp 2014-06-02T04:24:50Z diamonds: I'm getting closer I believe :) 2014-06-02T04:24:54Z jim: earlier you said you were confused about returning things... 2014-06-02T04:25:20Z diamonds: aha I think I got it... 2014-06-02T04:25:51Z diamonds: I think I didn't fully grasp (exp) means "evaluate exp" even in the context of defining a procedure 2014-06-02T04:26:18Z diamonds: remove the () from the procedure... value (what's this called?) & it works 2014-06-02T04:26:42Z jim: that's just referring to a variable 2014-06-02T04:28:07Z jim: so if you say for example... (define (foo arg1) arg1) 2014-06-02T04:28:41Z jim: this is like an identity because whatever you throw at foo it throws back 2014-06-02T04:29:24Z jim: if on the other hand you say 2014-06-02T04:29:43Z jim: (define (foo arg1) (arg1) ) 2014-06-02T04:30:58Z jim: this says: (1) arg1 is to be interpreted as a FUNCTION that takes no args, and (2) apply the function that comes in the variable arg1 2014-06-02T04:31:07Z jim: questions? 2014-06-02T04:35:02Z diamonds: jim, no, I think I get it now! thank you :) 2014-06-02T04:35:09Z sheilong quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2014-06-02T04:35:44Z diamonds: coming from javascript, I was interpreting the (proc) as {proc} when really it's proc() <-- in JS 2014-06-02T04:35:57Z diamonds: i.e. invocation not "wrapping the function definition" 2014-06-02T04:36:54Z jim: so this list-looking thing: (f 1 2 3 4) 2014-06-02T04:38:14Z jim: means (1) f should be a function that takes 4 args, and (2) APPLY the function f to THE ARGS (1 2 3 4) 2014-06-02T04:39:41Z jim: One thing that you ran into right away, is that functions in lisp/scheme are "first class objects"... because... 2014-06-02T04:40:07Z jim: - you can take functions as input to other functions 2014-06-02T04:40:31Z jim: - you can create functions and put them in variables 2014-06-02T04:40:55Z jim: - you can return functions as the output of a function. 2014-06-02T04:42:38Z jim: Here, it looks like you didn't want to apply a function, and perhaps, maybe just right now, you didn't want to look at functions in this way yet 2014-06-02T04:43:46Z ASau quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-02T04:44:59Z jim: if we are taking this listy thing (f 1 2 3 4) and look at it as data, then one thing we can observe is: this is a list with 5 things in it 2014-06-02T04:45:25Z jim: any questions here? 2014-06-02T04:51:29Z offby1 raises hand 2014-06-02T04:51:33Z offby1: What's for lunch tomorrow? 2014-06-02T04:52:54Z jim: chicken and shrimp pad thai, yellow curry chicken with steamed rice, and thai iced coffee 2014-06-02T04:54:03Z offby1: fab 2014-06-02T04:56:36Z phax joined #scheme 2014-06-02T04:57:19Z ehaliewicz joined #scheme 2014-06-02T05:02:25Z diamonds quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-02T05:03:01Z _asc joined #scheme 2014-06-02T05:05:46Z oleo quit (Quit: Verlassend) 2014-06-02T05:06:15Z mrowe_away is now known as mrowe 2014-06-02T05:19:30Z gravicappa joined #scheme 2014-06-02T05:24:22Z arrubin quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. 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2014-06-02T13:03:42Z wingo joined #scheme 2014-06-02T13:08:45Z sroy_ joined #scheme 2014-06-02T13:11:34Z kazimir42 quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2014-06-02T13:15:00Z duggiefresh joined #scheme 2014-06-02T13:18:32Z hottea left #scheme 2014-06-02T13:18:59Z mario-goulart quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-06-02T13:19:13Z mario-goulart joined #scheme 2014-06-02T13:35:19Z annodomini joined #scheme 2014-06-02T13:36:47Z Riastradh: I'm sure this is already being circulated on Hacker Reddit or Slashnews or something, but this is a nice glossary of some basic software engineering terminology: http://i.imgur.com/M5wl14r.png 2014-06-02T13:37:11Z Riastradh: The part about Perl is wrong, though. It should be: `I can read this Perl script -> I just dropped acid and the world made sense of itself to me.' `I can't read this Perl script -> This is a Perl script.' 2014-06-02T13:39:27Z taylanub: that's a good one 2014-06-02T13:42:17Z BitPuffin quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-06-02T13:47:32Z matheus23 joined #scheme 2014-06-02T13:53:19Z oleo joined #scheme 2014-06-02T13:58:29Z daviid joined #scheme 2014-06-02T14:00:21Z poucet_ joined #scheme 2014-06-02T14:06:09Z poucet_: Is there a scheme-like with generic-functions where most basic operators type-dispatch? 2014-06-02T14:06:50Z phax joined #scheme 2014-06-02T14:07:34Z poucet_: (e.g. eq?) 2014-06-02T14:09:10Z taylanub: poucet_: `eqv?' type-dispatches, usually 2014-06-02T14:10:18Z taylanub: `equal?' too, of course. arithmetic operations frequently dispatch based on exactness and level of numeric tower 2014-06-02T14:10:26Z taylanub: all implementation details of course 2014-06-02T14:11:13Z taylanub: other than that, there are CLOS-like object systems for Scheme, for instance Guile has GOOPS, where one can overload these functions even more 2014-06-02T14:13:38Z Riastradh quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2014-06-02T14:14:42Z jim: poucet_, curious why you're interested: do you want to write your own operators and your ownt types? aka to get at the type displatching? 2014-06-02T14:16:25Z ASau joined #scheme 2014-06-02T14:26:32Z poucet_: jim: For instance, basically have something like type-classes 2014-06-02T14:26:37Z ASau quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-02T14:27:00Z poucet_: I just read a paper by 'garcia' on predicate classes which seems to go in that direction. 2014-06-02T14:27:05Z ASau joined #scheme 2014-06-02T14:29:53Z pnkfelix quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-06-02T14:32:24Z ASau quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-02T14:32:52Z ASau joined #scheme 2014-06-02T14:33:18Z daviid quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-02T14:33:58Z jim: ahh, so it's that you are poking at how things work 2014-06-02T14:39:12Z xenophon joined #scheme 2014-06-02T14:40:31Z kilimanjaro joined #scheme 2014-06-02T14:40:47Z xenophon quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-02T14:41:47Z Steverman joined #scheme 2014-06-02T14:43:03Z pnkfelix joined #scheme 2014-06-02T14:46:15Z Steverman quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-02T14:47:17Z Steverman joined #scheme 2014-06-02T14:49:12Z ASau quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-02T14:49:39Z ASau joined #scheme 2014-06-02T14:50:18Z Steverman quit (Client Quit) 2014-06-02T14:52:32Z poucet_: jim: More like I dislike the fact that you have so many different equality operators :) This is partially a reason why I moved away from O'caml to haskell, the fact that depending on type you'd have a different + operator 2014-06-02T14:53:53Z jim: right, and having to remember which goes with which type, and having to do conversions sometimes, etc 2014-06-02T14:54:51Z arrubin joined #scheme 2014-06-02T14:54:55Z pjb: poucet_: have a look at: http://www.nhplace.com/kent/PS/EQUAL.html 2014-06-02T14:55:26Z jim: I think in the case of eq vs equal, the programmer would choose the one that closely matched shat he's trying to do, for example eq is for comparing atoms and is a shallow comparison 2014-06-02T14:56:38Z jim: whereas equal can compare two trees, and is a deep compare 2014-06-02T14:57:02Z BitPuffin joined #scheme 2014-06-02T14:58:18Z jim: or two lists, or two things built from pairs 2014-06-02T15:04:42Z hkBst quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-02T15:07:47Z poucet_: pjb: I don't think that article applies if you have a generic schema to support defining an 'eq?' override for a specific predicate 2014-06-02T15:08:11Z poucet_: (add-eq-instance char? char=?) 2014-06-02T15:08:26Z poucet_: I can buy not having default behaviour for cons-lists 2014-06-02T15:09:05Z poucet_ is now known as poucet 2014-06-02T15:10:02Z wingo: eq? isn't usually overridable -- it's a primitive 2014-06-02T15:10:13Z poucet: What he is really arguing is that eq? can not be automatically defined for all types. That's not what I'm asking though. (instance Eq) is not defined for all types in haskell either. What I'm asking is for the ability to override eq? based on type. 2014-06-02T15:10:21Z wingo: allowing it to be overridden can invalidate other invariants in a system 2014-06-02T15:10:26Z poucet: wingo: Yes, I'm asking whether there's a scheme-like that makes eq? a generic 2014-06-02T15:10:58Z ASau quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-02T15:10:59Z annodomini quit (Quit: annodomini) 2014-06-02T15:11:11Z wingo: poucet: if it exists it's probably slow :) if you don't want eq? in your program, work in a module that doesn't have eq? 2014-06-02T15:11:15Z wingo: and just use equal? 2014-06-02T15:11:42Z poucet: does equal? support overloading for custom-types? 2014-06-02T15:11:48Z wingo: usually, yes 2014-06-02T15:11:53Z wingo: depends on the scheme system 2014-06-02T15:12:05Z ASau joined #scheme 2014-06-02T15:14:55Z annodomini joined #scheme 2014-06-02T15:20:55Z ASau quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-02T15:21:19Z ASau joined #scheme 2014-06-02T15:24:02Z gravicappa quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-02T15:25:49Z jim: depending on how you make the custom type, you may not need to overload, as equal? will compare most things made from pairs... in most scheme/lisp systems, atoms are unique, so they can be compared by their address 2014-06-02T15:27:44Z jim: which (on such systems) is what eq does 2014-06-02T15:29:11Z poucet: There's a lot of implementation-details leaking through in your description. I understand what you're saying but I think you're answering this at the wrong level. Which is why I asked for a scheme-like since scheme is very tied to those specific implementation details 2014-06-02T15:33:08Z pjb: poucet: equal operators are already generic. The question is to be able to choose how deep you compare. 2014-06-02T15:36:33Z pjb: Is poucet from now equal to pouce from 4 minutes ago? Even given that he exchanged oxygen and carbon atoms at the very least in the mean time, and given that its brain state changed a lot! 2014-06-02T15:37:37Z jim: such a comparison may cause death... 2014-06-02T15:37:43Z pjb: Is a string "Hello" equal to "HELLO"? If it is the same memory, where we mutated the characters, is this string object equal to itself in the past after the bit changed? 2014-06-02T15:38:16Z pjb: This is not a silly question: if you use the string in a hash-table, you may have surprises if you mutate the key… 2014-06-02T15:39:39Z ASau quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-02T15:40:09Z ASau joined #scheme 2014-06-02T15:41:26Z jim: so part of what pjb is implying here, is even if you find a scheme-alike with everything you want, you'll still need to choose what equal means for the types, and part of that is choosing how deep to go 2014-06-02T15:41:51Z jim: if it's missing, you're gonna miss it 2014-06-02T15:41:55Z pjb: Not only you need to choose, but as a programmer, you want to choose different equality operators. 2014-06-02T15:44:07Z annodomini quit (Quit: annodomini) 2014-06-02T15:44:35Z poucet: pjb: Or as a programmer you support type-tagging and you define the right equality operator for the types you care about 2014-06-02T15:44:44Z poucet: pjb: Using records/structs 2014-06-02T15:45:57Z poucet: jim: And I'm asking whether there's a scheme-like that gives that ability to the programmer. 2014-06-02T15:46:15Z poucet: jim: similar to instance Eq and newtype for haskell 2014-06-02T15:46:40Z jim: presumably, if you use record and/or struct types whose constructors come with the scheme, it could very well be that equal? handles them 2014-06-02T15:48:21Z jim: one thing's clear from your question, you're wanting something scheme-like, so what is it about scheme that attracts you? 2014-06-02T15:48:40Z poucet: jim: dynamic-typing, macro-support, first-class-continuations, lexical-scoping, single-namespace 2014-06-02T15:49:04Z poucet: well dynamic-typing isnt' a must, but I think macros are more challenging in a typed environment 2014-06-02T15:49:25Z ASau quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-02T15:49:55Z annodomini joined #scheme 2014-06-02T15:50:31Z rszeno: how you can make a macro to understand types? 2014-06-02T15:51:01Z jim: what's the purpose? to have the language of your choice forevermore? or on the flip side, are you starting a specific project that needs these attribs? 2014-06-02T15:51:51Z poucet: jim: There's no language of choice forever :) But to experiment, I guess. 2014-06-02T15:52:47Z poucet: jim: I always want to play with scheme because it feels like a very pure language. But whenever I do, that part of the language irks me. It's a historical part to the language that could be abstracted better. 2014-06-02T15:53:12Z poucet: (imo) 2014-06-02T15:53:43Z jim: ahh :) would it be sufficient in your experimentation to ignore the eqs you don't want? or are they important enough conceptually to make it bad to ignore them? 2014-06-02T15:54:51Z jim: so the irking thing, what happens when you get irked? 2014-06-02T15:56:28Z jim: also, when you're in the experimental activity, what is it you see that triggers the irk? 2014-06-02T15:58:34Z jim: is it that this failure to abstract better makes you feel ... hmm. I don't know how to finish that sentence, because I have no idea how you feel 2014-06-02T15:58:40Z racycle joined #scheme 2014-06-02T15:58:59Z pjb: How can you justify http://i.imgur.com/M5wl14r.png vs. ftp://ftp.informatimago.com/users/pjb/glossary.txt ? 2014-06-02T15:59:33Z poucet: jim: it stops me from using scheme, basically 2014-06-02T15:59:53Z jim: what has that happen? 2014-06-02T15:59:59Z poucet: ? 2014-06-02T16:00:09Z langmartin joined #scheme 2014-06-02T16:00:10Z jim: maybe you get disappointed? 2014-06-02T16:00:25Z poucet: jim: didn't know this was a psych channel. Where are you trying to get? 2014-06-02T16:01:42Z pjb: poucet: it's very easy to define a modern scheme in scheme. Why are you bothered by the historical heritage? 2014-06-02T16:02:01Z pjb: (define first car) (define rest cdr) and use first and rest instead of car and cdr! 2014-06-02T16:02:31Z jim: I think that if I knew more about how you see things, I would understand your point of view, from the standpoint of how you see things from within your world 2014-06-02T16:05:33Z jim: one thing we see already, is that scheme has a largish handful of things you like... if it weren't for that one thing... 2014-06-02T16:06:25Z saolsen left #scheme 2014-06-02T16:07:24Z jlongster joined #scheme 2014-06-02T16:07:39Z poucet: jim: I'm still not certain what the purpose of this of this line of questioning. 2014-06-02T16:08:33Z poucet: jim: I was simply trying to find out if there was a scheme-like with that property 2014-06-02T16:09:15Z jim: that property being only one equality operator? 2014-06-02T16:09:37Z jim: for that matter, null? is an equality operator too 2014-06-02T16:09:43Z jim: sortof 2014-06-02T16:10:25Z poucet: jim: that property being generic-operators that type-dispatch with user-definable instancing 2014-06-02T16:11:25Z jim: if you had that, what would you do with it? 2014-06-02T16:11:46Z bjz_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-06-02T16:11:54Z bjz joined #scheme 2014-06-02T16:13:23Z civodul quit (Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)) 2014-06-02T16:14:35Z jlongster quit (Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)) 2014-06-02T16:15:37Z jim: I think that question was answered, by someone who said yes, depending on which scheme you choose 2014-06-02T16:16:23Z jim: so when you continued beyond that, I got curious about what's going on behind the curtain 2014-06-02T16:17:14Z bjz quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2014-06-02T16:17:19Z jim: I got the feeling of "It's just WRONG, why/how can it be so wrong, and why didn't someone fix it by this time?!" 2014-06-02T16:17:46Z poucet: jim: Not quite 2014-06-02T16:17:59Z poucet: jim: More like, I'd be interested in finding out scheme-like-languages that went that route instead 2014-06-02T16:18:28Z jim: or lisp-like 2014-06-02T16:18:37Z poucet: lisp-like is to ogeneric 2014-06-02T16:19:01Z poucet: it doesn't guarantee lexical scoping, hygienic macros and single-namespace (as well as mostly a functional instead of imperative choice for base libraries0 2014-06-02T16:20:16Z jim: so scheme is closer than lisp 2014-06-02T16:20:37Z Steverman joined #scheme 2014-06-02T16:23:06Z pjdelport: Saying "lisp-like" is almost like saying "Algol-like". 2014-06-02T16:24:08Z jlongster joined #scheme 2014-06-02T16:24:26Z yrdz joined #scheme 2014-06-02T16:25:36Z jusss joined #scheme 2014-06-02T16:25:38Z jlongster quit (Client Quit) 2014-06-02T16:25:39Z jusss quit (Changing host) 2014-06-02T16:25:39Z jusss joined #scheme 2014-06-02T16:25:48Z araujo joined #scheme 2014-06-02T16:25:50Z Steverman: hmm, I need a little bit of help 2014-06-02T16:25:54Z Steverman: http://codepad.org/YZ6chiUJ 2014-06-02T16:26:05Z duggiefresh quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-02T16:26:08Z b4283 quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2014-06-02T16:26:10Z Steverman: (check-expressionstar '[(42 42 42 42)]) 2014-06-02T16:26:12Z Steverman: returns #t 2014-06-02T16:26:16Z Steverman: it should not 2014-06-02T16:27:03Z Steverman: I'm trying to use this BNF {[({}*) ]}* 2014-06-02T16:28:13Z vraid quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-06-02T16:28:47Z Steverman: forgot to include check-expression 2014-06-02T16:34:37Z Shadox quit (Quit: Leaving) 2014-06-02T16:35:18Z poucet: Steverman: s/rac/last? 2014-06-02T16:35:29Z poucet: > 1 2014-06-02T16:35:46Z poucet: Hmm, not sure how to use the scheme-bot 2014-06-02T16:35:54Z poucet: but afaict, your rac is just the basic function 'last' 2014-06-02T16:36:18Z Steverman: mmh 2014-06-02T16:36:35Z Steverman: doesn't work here 2014-06-02T16:36:48Z Steverman: (last '(0 1 2 3)) 2014-06-02T16:37:54Z Steverman: I think found the error 2014-06-02T16:38:26Z Steverman: (check-expression (rac expressionstar)) without the last argument just checks the first list 2014-06-02T16:38:32Z Steverman: my question is.. 2014-06-02T16:38:40Z Steverman: how do I follow the BNF I provided earlier 2014-06-02T16:38:57Z Steverman: [(1 2 3 4)] is not valid 2014-06-02T16:39:05Z Steverman: [(1 2 3 4) exp] is valid 2014-06-02T16:39:12Z Steverman: [() exp] is valid 2014-06-02T16:41:26Z Steverman: maybe check the length is strictly 2 2014-06-02T16:41:28Z pjb: last is the last cons cell. I would assume rac is the car of the last cons cell. ie. (rac x) = (car (last x)) 2014-06-02T16:41:28Z mario-goulart quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-06-02T16:41:41Z mario-goulart joined #scheme 2014-06-02T16:42:30Z Steverman: yeah.. like '(0 1 2 3) 2014-06-02T16:42:37Z Steverman: 3 would be the last one 2014-06-02T16:42:40Z Steverman: for rac 2014-06-02T16:43:10Z jim: and (3 . nil) would be the last pair 2014-06-02T16:43:33Z Steverman: I wrote (list-ref (reverse xs) 0) 2014-06-02T16:43:36Z Steverman: before using rac 2014-06-02T16:45:55Z amgarchIn9 joined #scheme 2014-06-02T16:48:01Z gravicappa joined #scheme 2014-06-02T16:52:58Z mario-goulart quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-06-02T16:53:11Z mario-goulart joined #scheme 2014-06-02T16:55:39Z duggiefresh joined #scheme 2014-06-02T16:59:33Z vraid joined #scheme 2014-06-02T17:01:58Z Steverman quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-06-02T17:08:20Z skeuomorf quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2014-06-02T17:13:35Z duggiefresh quit 2014-06-02T17:13:43Z duggiefresh joined #scheme 2014-06-02T17:16:41Z poucet: pjb: not in racket 2014-06-02T17:16:56Z poucet: (last '(1 2 3 4 5)) => 5 2014-06-02T17:18:32Z mutley89 joined #scheme 2014-06-02T17:21:47Z szgyg joined #scheme 2014-06-02T17:22:47Z AkashicLegend joined #scheme 2014-06-02T17:24:09Z matheus23 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-02T17:26:19Z matheus23 joined #scheme 2014-06-02T17:29:08Z ehaliewicz joined #scheme 2014-06-02T17:33:22Z ehaliewicz quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-02T17:35:28Z rustico quit (Quit: Leaving) 2014-06-02T17:52:48Z wingo quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-06-02T18:09:50Z joneshf-laptop_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-02T18:10:28Z joneshf-laptop joined #scheme 2014-06-02T18:10:53Z ANGRYSTEVE joined #scheme 2014-06-02T18:11:31Z klltkr joined #scheme 2014-06-02T18:11:34Z daviid joined #scheme 2014-06-02T18:14:05Z amgarchIn9 quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-06-02T18:16:54Z amgarchIn9 joined #scheme 2014-06-02T18:19:32Z jusss quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-02T18:21:50Z Okasu quit (Quit: leaving) 2014-06-02T18:30:29Z ehaliewicz joined #scheme 2014-06-02T18:31:00Z Steverman joined #scheme 2014-06-02T18:35:18Z joneshf-laptop quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-06-02T18:35:43Z zannix quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-06-02T18:35:50Z joneshf-laptop joined #scheme 2014-06-02T18:41:13Z amgarchIn9 quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2014-06-02T18:53:58Z josso000 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-02T18:55:41Z josso joined #scheme 2014-06-02T18:55:42Z josso is now known as Guest36388 2014-06-02T19:22:50Z ddp_ quit (Quit: ddp_) 2014-06-02T19:23:08Z ddp joined #scheme 2014-06-02T19:25:10Z jewel_ is now known as jewel 2014-06-02T19:29:58Z davexunit joined #scheme 2014-06-02T19:33:09Z ddp quit (Quit: ddp) 2014-06-02T19:46:31Z ehaliewicz quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2014-06-02T19:47:13Z amgarchIn9 joined #scheme 2014-06-02T19:47:35Z Planet_EN joined #scheme 2014-06-02T19:48:07Z ddp joined #scheme 2014-06-02T19:52:29Z Planet_EN quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-06-02T19:55:48Z Planet_EN joined #scheme 2014-06-02T19:56:03Z civodul joined #scheme 2014-06-02T19:57:57Z MichaelRaskin joined #scheme 2014-06-02T20:03:58Z MichaelRaskin quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-02T20:05:47Z kazimir42 joined #scheme 2014-06-02T20:06:20Z aftershave joined #scheme 2014-06-02T20:09:47Z kazimir421 joined #scheme 2014-06-02T20:10:04Z jewel quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2014-06-02T20:10:37Z szgyg quit (Quit: leaving) 2014-06-02T20:10:50Z kazimir42 quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2014-06-02T20:14:10Z Guest36388 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-02T20:14:45Z aftershave quit (Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com) 2014-06-02T20:21:18Z sroy_ quit (Quit: Quitte) 2014-06-02T20:37:13Z josso joined #scheme 2014-06-02T20:37:18Z josso is now known as Guest28532 2014-06-02T20:38:11Z FractalFive quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2014-06-02T20:44:07Z ANGRYSTEVE: argh, this bnf killing me 2014-06-02T20:49:12Z phax quit (Quit: phax) 2014-06-02T20:53:20Z jim: ANGRYSTEVE, how so? 2014-06-02T20:53:41Z ANGRYSTEVE: let me show you 2014-06-02T20:54:01Z ANGRYSTEVE: http://users-cs.au.dk/danvy/dProgSprog/Lecture-notes/week-19.html#exercise-6 2014-06-02T20:54:01Z rudybot: http://tinyurl.com/md4pnrg 2014-06-02T20:54:08Z ANGRYSTEVE: part 2014-06-02T20:54:38Z ANGRYSTEVE: I can do the first part 2014-06-02T20:54:46Z ANGRYSTEVE: but how to do it with an improper list? 2014-06-02T20:54:47Z jim: isn't that the list that comes after "lambda"? 2014-06-02T20:55:12Z ANGRYSTEVE: yes 2014-06-02T20:55:52Z jim: what part of it are you doing that you're having problems with? 2014-06-02T20:56:44Z ANGRYSTEVE: I could show you my 1400~ SLOC file 2014-06-02T20:56:48Z ANGRYSTEVE: but I rather just show you a snippet 2014-06-02T20:56:50Z ANGRYSTEVE: http://codepad.org/qE3oTsY2 2014-06-02T20:56:53Z ANGRYSTEVE: this is how I tackled it 2014-06-02T20:56:56Z ANGRYSTEVE: the first part.. 2014-06-02T20:57:35Z ANGRYSTEVE: so if I write (check-lambda-formals-variablestar '(a b c)) it returns true 2014-06-02T20:57:49Z jim: the star one is the one with more vars? 2014-06-02T20:57:52Z jim: ok 2014-06-02T20:57:57Z ANGRYSTEVE: 0 or more 2014-06-02T20:57:58Z rszeno quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2014-06-02T20:58:04Z ANGRYSTEVE: so if I write (check-lambda-formals-variablestar '(a b b)) it returns false 2014-06-02T20:58:06Z ANGRYSTEVE: all good 2014-06-02T20:58:18Z jim: so '() also returns true? 2014-06-02T20:58:37Z jim: and that one returns false because you shouldn't duplicate the name? 2014-06-02T20:58:40Z ANGRYSTEVE: good question 2014-06-02T20:58:51Z ANGRYSTEVE: yes :/ 2014-06-02T20:59:04Z ANGRYSTEVE: I have to fix that as well 2014-06-02T20:59:05Z jim: so that's good right? 2014-06-02T20:59:12Z ANGRYSTEVE: a variable is not empty 2014-06-02T20:59:27Z ANGRYSTEVE: an empty list* 2014-06-02T20:59:27Z jim: because you should allow (lambda () ... ) 2014-06-02T20:59:58Z ANGRYSTEVE: '() returns true 2014-06-02T21:00:21Z jim: so, that's... good? bad? why? 2014-06-02T21:00:38Z ANGRYSTEVE: that is good because it allows that 2014-06-02T21:00:42Z ANGRYSTEVE: ({}*) 2014-06-02T21:00:43Z jim: yes 2014-06-02T21:00:58Z jim: and the * means 0 or more 2014-06-02T21:01:26Z jim: ok, got that much. 2014-06-02T21:01:27Z ANGRYSTEVE: what's the point of the above one then 2014-06-02T21:01:37Z ANGRYSTEVE: it's not in a list? 2014-06-02T21:01:48Z ANGRYSTEVE: 'a returns true 2014-06-02T21:01:50Z ANGRYSTEVE: good 2014-06-02T21:02:10Z oleo quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-02T21:02:20Z ANGRYSTEVE: how do I do the other part? 2014-06-02T21:03:01Z ANGRYSTEVE: just ask if I need to include more code 2014-06-02T21:04:03Z jim: ok, according to you should allow a single var not in a list 2014-06-02T21:04:17Z ANGRYSTEVE: yes, it returns true 2014-06-02T21:04:29Z ANGRYSTEVE: I'm stuck at (check-lambda-formals-variable-with-improper-list) 2014-06-02T21:04:32Z amgarchIn9 quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2014-06-02T21:04:41Z jim: so all these things sound good 2014-06-02T21:05:04Z ANGRYSTEVE: such a good name :P 2014-06-02T21:05:17Z amgarchIn9 joined #scheme 2014-06-02T21:05:32Z ANGRYSTEVE: do I just check whether the last two are improper? 2014-06-02T21:06:50Z jim: Have you tried the thought experiment of writing out some improper lists in dotted-pair form? 2014-06-02T21:07:24Z ANGRYSTEVE: no 2014-06-02T21:07:28Z ANGRYSTEVE: how does it go? 2014-06-02T21:07:39Z ANGRYSTEVE: '(a b c . d)? 2014-06-02T21:07:55Z jim: start with (a . b) 2014-06-02T21:08:26Z jim: so you would have (lambda (a . b) foo) 2014-06-02T21:09:08Z ANGRYSTEVE: hmm 2014-06-02T21:09:10Z jim: what's that in dotted-pair? 2014-06-02T21:09:56Z ANGRYSTEVE: not sure how you want me to write it 2014-06-02T21:10:20Z jim: write whatever the dotted-pair form of the formal list 2014-06-02T21:11:14Z ANGRYSTEVE: I meant I don't know what you mean by saying dotted-pair 2014-06-02T21:11:57Z jim: this part I'm not sure I have time to go thru. 2014-06-02T21:12:05Z ANGRYSTEVE: isn't (a . b) a dotted pair? 2014-06-02T21:12:09Z jim: yes 2014-06-02T21:12:36Z ANGRYSTEVE: oh, you want me to write the whole thing in dotted-pair 2014-06-02T21:12:43Z jim: yes 2014-06-02T21:12:46Z ANGRYSTEVE: alright 2014-06-02T21:13:05Z jim: well not the lambda, its list or the lambda body 2014-06-02T21:13:14Z jim: just the formal parameter list 2014-06-02T21:13:36Z jim: but let's stay in this example just a moment 2014-06-02T21:13:47Z ANGRYSTEVE: okay 2014-06-02T21:13:58Z fridim_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-02T21:14:04Z jim: question: how would you detect this case, and how would you decide if it's valid? 2014-06-02T21:14:40Z ANGRYSTEVE: well.. I could check if b has an empty list? 2014-06-02T21:14:43Z ANGRYSTEVE: or doesn't 2014-06-02T21:14:48Z jim: (b . a) valid? (a . b) valid? (a . a) valid? 2014-06-02T21:15:06Z matheus23 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-02T21:15:38Z ANGRYSTEVE: maybe I didn't answer the question 2014-06-02T21:15:46Z ANGRYSTEVE: it is valid when both of them are distinct 2014-06-02T21:16:04Z kazimir421 quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2014-06-02T21:16:14Z jim: ok, so are all three valid? 2014-06-02T21:16:19Z ANGRYSTEVE: last one is not 2014-06-02T21:16:20Z oleo joined #scheme 2014-06-02T21:16:25Z ANGRYSTEVE: (a. a) 2014-06-02T21:16:26Z jim: right again. 2014-06-02T21:16:38Z ANGRYSTEVE: (a . a) * 2014-06-02T21:17:25Z jim: tell me what you think scheme will say: 2014-06-02T21:17:42Z jim: (null? '(a . b)) 2014-06-02T21:18:06Z ANGRYSTEVE: most likely 3f 2014-06-02T21:18:07Z ANGRYSTEVE: #f* 2014-06-02T21:18:19Z jim: correct, a pair is not a null 2014-06-02T21:18:32Z jim: (pair? '(a . b)) 2014-06-02T21:18:36Z ANGRYSTEVE: #t 2014-06-02T21:18:48Z jim: (pair? 'a) 2014-06-02T21:18:52Z ANGRYSTEVE: #f 2014-06-02T21:18:56Z jim: (pair? 'b) 2014-06-02T21:19:00Z ANGRYSTEVE: #f 2014-06-02T21:19:11Z jim: lemme check to see if there's atom? 2014-06-02T21:19:21Z ANGRYSTEVE: hm? 2014-06-02T21:19:57Z jim: there's atom in lisp that returns true if the thing is an atom 2014-06-02T21:20:12Z jim: there does not seem to be atom? in scheme tho 2014-06-02T21:20:30Z jim: in lisp it looks like: 2014-06-02T21:20:34Z turbofail: that's because it was always kind of a silly predicate 2014-06-02T21:20:49Z jim: (atom 'a) -> t 2014-06-02T21:21:06Z ANGRYSTEVE: we use symbol? 2014-06-02T21:21:32Z jim: ok, "symbol?"... is that portable to other schemes? 2014-06-02T21:21:37Z annodomini quit (Quit: annodomini) 2014-06-02T21:21:39Z ANGRYSTEVE: no idea 2014-06-02T21:21:47Z ANGRYSTEVE: it's in Chez for sure 2014-06-02T21:21:48Z turbofail: it should be 2014-06-02T21:21:57Z jim: ok. 2014-06-02T21:22:06Z jim: so, going on... 2014-06-02T21:22:32Z jim: (define apair '(a . b)) 2014-06-02T21:23:02Z jim: (symbol? (car apair)) 2014-06-02T21:23:44Z ANGRYSTEVE: uh you want me to answer? 2014-06-02T21:23:52Z jim: yeah 2014-06-02T21:24:02Z ANGRYSTEVE: #t as it's "a" it's referring to 2014-06-02T21:24:32Z ANGRYSTEVE: no, not the string :) 2014-06-02T21:24:34Z ANGRYSTEVE: a 2014-06-02T21:24:50Z ANGRYSTEVE: I think I see it now 2014-06-02T21:24:57Z jim: turbofail. you think any A where (symbol? A) is true, can be used as a var name? 2014-06-02T21:25:42Z ANGRYSTEVE: (symol? (cdr pair)) -> #t 2014-06-02T21:25:51Z ANGRYSTEVE: BUT 2014-06-02T21:26:06Z ANGRYSTEVE: (symol? '(b)) 2014-06-02T21:26:10Z ANGRYSTEVE: hmm 2014-06-02T21:26:13Z ANGRYSTEVE: let me check that 2014-06-02T21:26:27Z ANGRYSTEVE: I found it :D 2014-06-02T21:26:36Z ANGRYSTEVE: make a list? check or something 2014-06-02T21:26:42Z alaricsp quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2014-06-02T21:27:33Z ANGRYSTEVE: so the difference between (cdr '(a . b)) and (cdr '(a b)) is that one not in a list 2014-06-02T21:28:02Z ANGRYSTEVE: in this case it's the improper list 2014-06-02T21:28:12Z ANGRYSTEVE: cdr of that.. 2014-06-02T21:28:25Z jim: so if we assume this pair is the scheme expression reader's funky look for an improper list, what exactly do we get for the formal list? 2014-06-02T21:29:09Z ANGRYSTEVE: what do you mean? 2014-06-02T21:31:55Z Fare joined #scheme 2014-06-02T21:32:51Z jim: so we give your recognizer '(lambda (a . b) a) 2014-06-02T21:33:10Z jim: what's the name of your var that gets the formals? 2014-06-02T21:33:41Z alaricsp joined #scheme 2014-06-02T21:33:45Z duggiefresh quit 2014-06-02T21:34:44Z ANGRYSTEVE: uh 2014-06-02T21:35:46Z jim: in your code, that's trying to make syntatic sense of the expression... we get to the part of the cond that says "ok, so this is a lambda", and your function gets called 2014-06-02T21:36:20Z ANGRYSTEVE: ah yes, let me include a bit more 2014-06-02T21:36:49Z cmatei quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2014-06-02T21:37:30Z phax joined #scheme 2014-06-02T21:37:38Z jim: so I guess your function gets the 'lambda (or maybe not), the list of formal parameters and the body... yes? 2014-06-02T21:37:59Z ANGRYSTEVE: lambda is not included 2014-06-02T21:38:02Z jim: dang, running out of time, about 15 mins left for me 2014-06-02T21:38:03Z jim: ok 2014-06-02T21:38:06Z ANGRYSTEVE: you'll see soon 2014-06-02T21:38:06Z ANGRYSTEVE: 1 min 2014-06-02T21:38:49Z jim: because you already recognized the first thing in the list is a 'lambda (and there's no need to see it again, inside your func) 2014-06-02T21:39:26Z ANGRYSTEVE: http://codepad.org/Gygf4bsH 2014-06-02T21:40:23Z jim: One question that if I have to leave, I should leave you with: if you have this dotted pair, '(a . b), how do you know it's the last (or only) thing in the list? 2014-06-02T21:40:28Z sheilong joined #scheme 2014-06-02T21:41:09Z ANGRYSTEVE: the thing I wanted to ask about :) 2014-06-02T21:41:50Z ANGRYSTEVE: recursion somehow? 2014-06-02T21:41:59Z jim: well let's kick the tires 2014-06-02T21:42:30Z jim: we have apair, (define apair '(a . b)) 2014-06-02T21:43:13Z jim: so first off... what's your test to see if it's just a single var? 2014-06-02T21:43:56Z ANGRYSTEVE: hmm 2014-06-02T21:43:59Z ANGRYSTEVE: as in 'a? 2014-06-02T21:44:14Z jeremyheiler quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-02T21:44:14Z jim: right. let's say we have (lambda a a) 2014-06-02T21:44:20Z mrowe_away is now known as mrowe 2014-06-02T21:44:25Z jeremyheiler joined #scheme 2014-06-02T21:44:39Z ANGRYSTEVE: I would do a symbol? check 2014-06-02T21:44:44Z ANGRYSTEVE: if it's a single variable 2014-06-02T21:45:34Z ANGRYSTEVE: if it's not a variable then I would check if it's a pair 2014-06-02T21:45:47Z jim: ok, next howbout (lambda (a) a) 2014-06-02T21:46:14Z jim: you get: yes, it's a pair. 2014-06-02T21:46:17Z jim: now what? 2014-06-02T21:46:35Z ANGRYSTEVE: now for the dotted pair? 2014-06-02T21:46:55Z jim: for (a), what's the dotted pair notation for it 2014-06-02T21:46:57Z jim: ? 2014-06-02T21:47:16Z ANGRYSTEVE: (a . '()) 2014-06-02T21:47:26Z jim: yes. 2014-06-02T21:48:07Z jim: so let me ask... is ( (a b c) (d e f) . foo ) a proper formal list? 2014-06-02T21:49:03Z ANGRYSTEVE: I don't tihnk so 2014-06-02T21:49:15Z jim: correct. what's wrong with it? 2014-06-02T21:49:42Z ANGRYSTEVE: maybe if (a b c) and (d e f) was (a b c d e f) then yes 2014-06-02T21:50:13Z jim: so (car formal-list) would be a pair 2014-06-02T21:50:48Z jim: and that's something that's wrong with it? 2014-06-02T21:51:23Z ANGRYSTEVE: uh 2014-06-02T21:51:31Z Fare quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2014-06-02T21:52:05Z jim: if we have formal-list being ((a b c) (d e f) . foo) 2014-06-02T21:52:23Z jim: then your function gets called that checks for lambdaness 2014-06-02T21:52:58Z jim: and in the formal-list variable it sees ((a b c) (d e f) . foo) 2014-06-02T21:53:19Z jim: dunno if that's the name you decided on or not :) 2014-06-02T21:53:43Z jim: but the first thing we know about the formal-list, is "it is a pair" 2014-06-02T21:53:58Z jim: so far so good. 2014-06-02T21:54:00Z mrowe is now known as mrowe_away 2014-06-02T21:54:13Z ANGRYSTEVE: yes 2014-06-02T21:54:16Z jim: what do you want to know next? 2014-06-02T21:54:55Z jim: or what do you want to look at next? (I'll be back in some hours) 2014-06-02T21:55:53Z ANGRYSTEVE: no idea 2014-06-02T21:56:25Z jim: the structure so far... (cond ((null? formal-list) #t) ((symbol? formal-list) #t) more stuff will go here ) 2014-06-02T21:56:52Z ANGRYSTEVE: forgot the pair check? 2014-06-02T21:57:14Z ANGRYSTEVE: then we have to check that it's a symbol inside of that pair 2014-06-02T21:57:20Z jim: that would be next... the second cond phrase checks for single var 2014-06-02T21:57:28Z jim: inside? 2014-06-02T21:57:39Z jim: one particular side or another? 2014-06-02T21:57:48Z ANGRYSTEVE: sorry, it's a pair, then we have to check it's a symbol 2014-06-02T21:58:09Z ANGRYSTEVE: (car formal-list) 2014-06-02T21:58:47Z jim: ahh, so you want something like (a (d e f) . foo), NOT ((a b c) (d e f) . foo) 2014-06-02T21:59:20Z ANGRYSTEVE: I actually want ((a b c d e f) . foo) 2014-06-02T21:59:40Z davexunit quit (Quit: Later) 2014-06-02T21:59:47Z jim: if we do have that, then we check the rest by recursing 2014-06-02T22:00:05Z jim: actually you want (a b c d e f . foo) 2014-06-02T22:00:14Z ANGRYSTEVE: yeah 2014-06-02T22:00:15Z ANGRYSTEVE: hehe 2014-06-02T22:00:15Z davexunit joined #scheme 2014-06-02T22:00:16Z davexunit quit (Changing host) 2014-06-02T22:00:16Z davexunit joined #scheme 2014-06-02T22:00:18Z ANGRYSTEVE: according to the BNF 2014-06-02T22:00:27Z jim: ok, I gotta fly 2014-06-02T22:00:33Z ANGRYSTEVE: a few hours? 2014-06-02T22:00:42Z ANGRYSTEVE: I can stay for like 2-3 hours 2014-06-02T22:00:51Z davexunit quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-02T22:01:00Z jim: you have a coupla mechanics down now 2014-06-02T22:01:15Z jim: maybe tomorrow then... 2014-06-02T22:01:24Z ANGRYSTEVE: sure 2014-06-02T22:01:33Z ANGRYSTEVE: or if someone else wanna help me right now 2014-06-02T22:02:01Z jim: so work on doing a plain list of symbols (with a '() in the cdr of the last pair) 2014-06-02T22:02:16Z jim: you may have that one done 2014-06-02T22:02:48Z ANGRYSTEVE: yeah 2014-06-02T22:03:59Z Steverman: ^this is me on my laptop 2014-06-02T22:04:06Z Steverman: my lecturer referred me to http://users-cs.au.dk/danvy/dProgSprog/Lecture-notes/week-20.html#verifying-whether-a-scheme-value-is-a-list-of-distinct-numbers 2014-06-02T22:04:07Z rudybot: http://tinyurl.com/n8pkcn3 2014-06-02T22:09:18Z ANGRYSTEVE: oh wwow 2014-06-02T22:09:22Z ANGRYSTEVE: that was easy 2014-06-02T22:09:28Z ANGRYSTEVE: I just included a symbol check 2014-06-02T22:15:16Z ffs joined #scheme 2014-06-02T22:17:06Z civodul quit (Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)) 2014-06-02T22:22:19Z gravicappa quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2014-06-02T22:28:33Z ASau joined #scheme 2014-06-02T22:29:02Z langmartin quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2014-06-02T22:38:31Z ehaliewicz joined #scheme 2014-06-02T22:51:22Z Sgeo joined #scheme 2014-06-02T22:53:00Z aretecode joined #scheme 2014-06-02T23:04:19Z arrubin quit 2014-06-02T23:33:54Z brendyn quit (*.net *.split) 2014-06-02T23:44:17Z brendyn joined #scheme 2014-06-02T23:49:50Z AkashicLegend_ joined #scheme 2014-06-02T23:50:43Z AkashicLegend quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-06-02T23:50:43Z AkashicLegend_ is now known as AkashicLegend 2014-06-02T23:52:39Z Steverman: pffff 2014-06-02T23:59:58Z mrowe_away is now known as mrowe 2014-06-03T00:01:09Z offby1 waves hand dismissively 2014-06-03T00:01:41Z robot-beethoven joined #scheme 2014-06-03T00:03:53Z cdidd quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-06-03T00:05:57Z karswell quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-06-03T00:06:11Z karswell joined #scheme 2014-06-03T00:10:49Z jeapostrophe joined #scheme 2014-06-03T00:14:11Z AkashicLegend quit (Quit: AkashicLegend) 2014-06-03T00:16:43Z ivan\ quit (Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)) 2014-06-03T00:16:47Z cdidd joined #scheme 2014-06-03T00:17:22Z ivan\ joined #scheme 2014-06-03T00:22:18Z waxysubs quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-03T00:51:53Z amgarchIn9 quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-06-03T00:53:31Z racycle quit (Quit: ZZZzzz…) 2014-06-03T00:54:28Z davexunit joined #scheme 2014-06-03T00:59:44Z Riastradh joined #scheme 2014-06-03T01:05:01Z mario-goulart quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-06-03T01:05:14Z mario-goulart joined #scheme 2014-06-03T01:07:04Z arrubin joined #scheme 2014-06-03T01:12:26Z Steverman: noooo, my syntax checker can't parse itself 2014-06-03T01:12:28Z Steverman: : 2014-06-03T01:12:30Z Steverman: :( 2014-06-03T01:15:18Z ffs quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-06-03T01:21:36Z offby1: Can your barber shave himself? 2014-06-03T01:23:00Z safety joined #scheme 2014-06-03T01:24:11Z Steverman: who what? 2014-06-03T01:52:04Z offby1: Steverman: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barber_paradox 2014-06-03T01:52:12Z Riastradh quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2014-06-03T01:57:51Z Riastradh joined #scheme 2014-06-03T02:05:27Z b4283 joined #scheme 2014-06-03T02:10:17Z davexunit quit (Quit: Later) 2014-06-03T02:11:00Z phax quit (Quit: phax) 2014-06-03T02:16:21Z Steverman: well, it works now : 2014-06-03T02:16:23Z Steverman: :) 2014-06-03T02:21:45Z ANGRYSTEVE quit (Quit: Sunya in my bunya) 2014-06-03T02:24:25Z Steverman quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2014-06-03T02:24:49Z annodomini joined #scheme 2014-06-03T02:31:31Z duggiefresh joined #scheme 2014-06-03T02:37:34Z phipes joined #scheme 2014-06-03T02:41:46Z cmatei joined #scheme 2014-06-03T02:51:53Z aeth quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-06-03T02:52:17Z aeth joined #scheme 2014-06-03T03:06:58Z Planet_EN quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-03T03:18:36Z duggiefresh quit 2014-06-03T03:25:05Z MouldyOldBones quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-03T03:25:05Z Riastradh quit (Write error: Broken pipe) 2014-06-03T03:27:05Z racycle joined #scheme 2014-06-03T03:28:42Z jeapostrophe quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2014-06-03T03:35:29Z Riastradh joined #scheme 2014-06-03T03:37:18Z MouldyOldBones joined #scheme 2014-06-03T03:40:18Z daviid quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-03T03:41:17Z sheilong quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2014-06-03T03:45:57Z MouldyOldBones quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-03T03:47:22Z MouldyOldBones joined #scheme 2014-06-03T03:58:55Z aeth quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2014-06-03T03:59:45Z aeth joined #scheme 2014-06-03T04:01:40Z phax joined #scheme 2014-06-03T04:17:51Z frkout_ joined #scheme 2014-06-03T04:21:17Z frkout quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-06-03T04:23:32Z ffs joined #scheme 2014-06-03T04:25:46Z MichaelRaskin joined #scheme 2014-06-03T04:33:24Z arrubin quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. 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2014-06-03T09:22:38Z przl joined #scheme 2014-06-03T09:24:44Z vraid joined #scheme 2014-06-03T09:34:33Z ecraven: Riastradh: did the profiler you wrote ever make it into MIT/GNU Scheme proper? 2014-06-03T09:36:47Z taylanub 's badly-written rant on Apple's way of marketing their new prog lang: http://taylanub.github.io/doc/apple-swift.html 2014-06-03T09:37:43Z ecraven: Riastradh: thanks, found it :) 2014-06-03T09:39:29Z ecraven: taylanub: that quote at the bottom is great :) 2014-06-03T09:41:50Z civodul: indeed 2014-06-03T09:41:59Z civodul: constant reinvention 2014-06-03T09:42:35Z taylanub quit (Disconnected by services) 2014-06-03T09:43:01Z taylanub joined #scheme 2014-06-03T09:43:47Z frkout_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-03T09:44:22Z frkout joined #scheme 2014-06-03T09:46:13Z fikusz quit (Quit: Leaving) 2014-06-03T09:49:40Z fikusz joined #scheme 2014-06-03T09:57:58Z kazimir421 quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2014-06-03T10:02:10Z vinleod joined #scheme 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timeout: 252 seconds) 2014-06-03T16:40:55Z FareWell quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2014-06-03T16:42:52Z karswell` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-03T16:44:32Z annodomini quit (Quit: annodomini) 2014-06-03T16:45:50Z karswell` joined #scheme 2014-06-03T16:47:11Z FareWell joined #scheme 2014-06-03T16:48:56Z hk3380 joined #scheme 2014-06-03T16:49:08Z hk3380: what's the problem with this 2014-06-03T16:49:10Z hk3380: http://puu.sh/9dpfI/9449710d2a.png 2014-06-03T16:49:14Z hk3380: (i know this is not fizzbuzz) 2014-06-03T16:50:49Z ecraven: hk3380: (begin ((...))) applies the result of (display n) [probably "unspecified"] to what follows.. this is most probably wrong 2014-06-03T16:51:26Z karswell` is now known as karswell 2014-06-03T16:51:42Z hk3380: ecraven: can't i just have 2 sequential statements for the else branch? 2014-06-03T16:52:31Z ecraven: hk3380: you can, BEGIN does that.. (begin a b c) does a b c in sequence.. (begin (a b c)) does only one thing, it applies a to b and c 2014-06-03T16:52:59Z hk3380: ohhh 2014-06-03T16:53:01Z hk3380: nice 2014-06-03T16:53:05Z hk3380: it works like that 2014-06-03T16:53:08Z hk3380: cheers man 2014-06-03T16:58:56Z annodomini joined #scheme 2014-06-03T16:58:56Z annodomini quit (Changing host) 2014-06-03T16:58:56Z annodomini joined #scheme 2014-06-03T16:59:28Z vraid quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-06-03T17:00:31Z duggiefresh joined #scheme 2014-06-03T17:02:45Z duggiefresh quit (Client Quit) 2014-06-03T17:18:56Z annodomini quit (Quit: annodomini) 2014-06-03T17:22:49Z theseb quit (Quit: Leaving) 2014-06-03T17:23:25Z pnkfelix joined #scheme 2014-06-03T17:36:03Z aftershave joined #scheme 2014-06-03T17:39:40Z theseb joined #scheme 2014-06-03T17:40:00Z vraid joined #scheme 2014-06-03T17:42:08Z cross quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-03T17:43:07Z annodomini joined #scheme 2014-06-03T17:45:32Z jxv quit (Quit: QUIT) 2014-06-03T17:49:49Z annodomini quit 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http://www.cs.utexas.edu/users/mckinley/papers/rcix-oopsla-2013.pdf Though I doubt Apple implements the cutting edge here. 2014-06-04T03:07:18Z asumu: (just a nitpick, I agree with the general gist that Apple's marketing is pretty silly) 2014-06-04T03:14:44Z ddp quit (Quit: ddp) 2014-06-04T03:18:57Z cross quit (Quit: leaving) 2014-06-04T03:19:59Z racycle joined #scheme 2014-06-04T03:22:23Z cross joined #scheme 2014-06-04T03:22:47Z cross quit (Client Quit) 2014-06-04T03:25:04Z guampa quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-04T03:25:05Z MouldyOldBones quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-04T03:25:05Z Riastradh quit (Write error: Broken pipe) 2014-06-04T03:33:20Z guampa joined #scheme 2014-06-04T03:35:28Z Riastradh joined #scheme 2014-06-04T03:38:58Z jeapostrophe quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-04T03:39:14Z jxv quit (Quit: QUIT) 2014-06-04T03:39:59Z jeapostrophe joined #scheme 2014-06-04T03:40:00Z cross joined #scheme 2014-06-04T03:46:10Z Rptx quit (Quit: 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pjdelport: Python uses RC only as part of its GC, no? it traces for cycles? and it's fast because of the global interpreter lock alleviating the need of atomic (thread-safe) refcount updates, which doesn't hold for Objective-C/Swift which do thread-safe RC 2014-06-04T07:20:38Z taylanub: asumu: very interesting, thanks! 2014-06-04T07:22:26Z bjz quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2014-06-04T07:30:37Z taylanub: I keep seeing the MMTk being mentioned in papers about GC, I'm still confused on whether the collectors in it are supposed to be "industry/production" grade, or just reference implementations 2014-06-04T07:32:33Z taylanub: specifically, I criticized a paper once for comparing dlmalloc (Doug Lea's malloc, apparently a version of it is used for glibc's malloc) to the collectors in the MMTk, maybe that was wrong? 2014-06-04T07:33:20Z pjdelport: taylanub: Right, it traces for cycles, but the cycle tracing is integrated with the RC. 2014-06-04T07:34:34Z hkBst quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2014-06-04T07:34:59Z pjdelport: I should qualify that as CPython, of course; PyPy uses a tracing GC (actually a whole bunch: http://pypy.readthedocs.org/en/latest/garbage_collection.html ) 2014-06-04T07:42:32Z mrowe is now known as mrowe_away 2014-06-04T07:49:21Z daviid quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-04T07:49:46Z _asc joined #scheme 2014-06-04T07:54:30Z hkBst joined #scheme 2014-06-04T07:57:51Z Averell- is now known as Averell 2014-06-04T08:04:05Z DGASAU joined #scheme 2014-06-04T08:20:40Z przl joined #scheme 2014-06-04T08:23:53Z vinleod joined #scheme 2014-06-04T08:27:47Z bjz joined #scheme 2014-06-04T08:38:57Z BitPuffin quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2014-06-04T08:43:11Z hkBst quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2014-06-04T08:48:35Z Soft quit (*.net *.split) 2014-06-04T08:50:21Z Soft joined #scheme 2014-06-04T08:54:49Z josso joined #scheme 2014-06-04T08:55:08Z josso is now known as Guest86902 2014-06-04T08:59:21Z vishesh joined #scheme 2014-06-04T09:01:30Z vraid 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2014-06-04T18:09:52Z aranhoide joined #scheme 2014-06-04T18:10:09Z rszeno joined #scheme 2014-06-04T18:10:21Z amgarchIn9 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-04T18:13:20Z visualshock joined #scheme 2014-06-04T18:18:03Z visualshock: Is (1 2) and (1 . 2) different? 2014-06-04T18:18:26Z yacks joined #scheme 2014-06-04T18:18:50Z Riastradh: Yes. 2014-06-04T18:19:00Z Riastradh: (1 2) is shorthand for (1 . (2 . ())). 2014-06-04T18:19:54Z visualshock: thanks! 2014-06-04T18:20:21Z boycottg00gle joined #scheme 2014-06-04T18:20:40Z visualshock: What is the difference between a recursive and iterativ process? 2014-06-04T18:22:56Z boycottg` joined #scheme 2014-06-04T18:23:00Z joneshf-laptop joined #scheme 2014-06-04T18:26:57Z boycottg00gle quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-04T18:27:20Z oleo: the one shuffles ..... the other shuffles ...... 2014-06-04T18:27:32Z truncate joined #scheme 2014-06-04T18:27:43Z vishesh quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2014-06-04T18:31:48Z Riastradh quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2014-06-04T18:39:38Z misv quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2014-06-04T18:40:12Z misv joined #scheme 2014-06-04T18:41:11Z amgarchIn9 joined #scheme 2014-06-04T18:45:10Z hiroakip joined #scheme 2014-06-04T18:45:37Z ddp quit (Quit: ddp) 2014-06-04T18:47:05Z pjdelport: visualshock: Your point of view, mostly. 2014-06-04T18:48:21Z Riastradh joined #scheme 2014-06-04T18:51:12Z hiroakip quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2014-06-04T18:51:14Z tenq|out is now known as tenq 2014-06-04T18:53:12Z ddp joined #scheme 2014-06-04T18:57:26Z ehaliewicz joined #scheme 2014-06-04T19:03:05Z theseb quit (Quit: Leaving) 2014-06-04T19:05:35Z hiroakip joined #scheme 2014-06-04T19:11:04Z Riastradh quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2014-06-04T19:16:27Z truncate quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2014-06-04T19:16:51Z emma quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-04T19:18:50Z Riastradh joined #scheme 2014-06-04T19:20:21Z truncate joined #scheme 2014-06-04T19:29:43Z davexunit quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-04T19:30:13Z davexunit joined #scheme 2014-06-04T19:30:18Z weinholt quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-06-04T19:30:57Z boycottg` quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-04T19:33:14Z weinholt joined #scheme 2014-06-04T19:45:00Z taylanub: visualshock: a vague analogy might be: a recursive process first queues up the work to be done, then starts doing it; an iterative process just goes through it one by one 2014-06-04T19:45:36Z taylanub: visualshock: do you know what "the stack" is, in many programming languages or their implementations? 2014-06-04T19:46:41Z visualshock: taylanub, so recursive just creates a stack, and iterativ is more like tail recursion? 2014-06-04T19:46:47Z karswell quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2014-06-04T19:47:07Z taylanub: visualshock: tail-recursive *procedures* yield iterative *processes* 2014-06-04T19:47:49Z taylanub: i.e. the code looks recursive, but when all points of recursion are tail-positions, and if the language implementation does tail-call-optimization, then the resulting process is iterative and the stack doesn't really grow 2014-06-04T19:48:15Z ddp quit (Quit: ddp) 2014-06-04T19:48:37Z hk3380: sicp has a nice chapter on this 2014-06-04T19:48:39Z hk3380: https://mitpress.mit.edu/sicp/full-text/sicp/book/node14.html 2014-06-04T19:48:41Z visualshock: okey, thanks, I think I understand it now 2014-06-04T19:48:49Z oleo: heh 2014-06-04T19:50:12Z visualshock: When I need to do multiple things in if else, is there other options than begin? 2014-06-04T19:50:29Z oleo: ? 2014-06-04T19:50:43Z oleo: better use cond ? 2014-06-04T19:50:43Z taylanub: visualshock: depends .. maybe `let' for instance 2014-06-04T19:51:49Z taylanub: just use what makes sense. do you want to do a sequence of imperative operations? if so, then use begin 2014-06-04T19:53:50Z jxv joined #scheme 2014-06-04T19:54:25Z visualshock: okey, maybe I just use cond instead so I can do more than 2 2014-06-04T19:57:24Z oleo: you can still use if in a cond or cond in a cond etc..... 2014-06-04T19:57:38Z oleo: but when you have more than just 2 cases you use cond 2014-06-04T19:57:43Z oleo: usually... 2014-06-04T19:57:58Z oleo: when you happen to have just 2 branches you use if... 2014-06-04T19:58:20Z jim joined #scheme 2014-06-04T19:58:27Z `^_^v quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2014-06-04T19:59:10Z oleo: you can do if if if .....too but that gets messy pretty fast....and is not recommended.... 2014-06-04T20:00:53Z jim: (just got back) you mean instead of cond? 2014-06-04T20:03:29Z truncate quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2014-06-04T20:03:44Z taylanub: jim: yes 2014-06-04T20:03:58Z `^_^v joined #scheme 2014-06-04T20:12:45Z kniu joined #scheme 2014-06-04T20:13:40Z kniu quit (Client Quit) 2014-06-04T20:14:47Z jim: I'm looking for a way to turn duration numbers into notes with dots... for example in a dotted half, the dot adds half the duration of the thing it follows, which is the half note, so it's half plus a quarter... if there's another dot, it adds half the duration of the DOT it follows, so a double-dotted half note adds 1/2 + 1/4 + 1/3 = 7/8 2014-06-04T20:16:18Z jim: so if I see a duration of (say) 5/16, that would be a quarter tied to a 16th, while 7/16 would be a double-dotted quarter 2014-06-04T20:19:24Z jim: so I'm trying to figure how to detect that, for one, it's denom = 1, 3, 7, 15, etc and if it's not that, there has to be ties involved since (for example) you can't do a single note if it has a duration of 5/16, that would have to be two notes tied 2014-06-04T20:21:01Z jim: argh. someone's trying to flood my connection 2014-06-04T20:21:56Z jim: err correction above, double-dotted halfnote is 1/2 + 1/4 + 1/8 = 7/8 2014-06-04T20:25:06Z visualshock: Why do I get arity mismatch? (apply (lambda (x) (* x x)) '(2 4 6)) 2014-06-04T20:25:59Z truncate joined #scheme 2014-06-04T20:26:19Z tsuyoshi: because you're applying 3 arguments to a function that takes 1 argument 2014-06-04T20:26:20Z nisstyre: visualshock: because your lambda expects one parameter and you're applying it to 3 2014-06-04T20:26:21Z sroy quit (Quit: Quitte) 2014-06-04T20:26:25Z nisstyre: 3 arguments that is 2014-06-04T20:26:36Z tsuyoshi: maybe you wanted to use map instead of apply? 2014-06-04T20:27:56Z nisstyre: tsuyoshi: apply takes a function expecting n or more parameters and applies to a list of n or more arguments 2014-06-04T20:28:10Z nisstyre: the list elements become the arguments 2014-06-04T20:28:36Z jim: right, map will apply a single-arg func to a list which sounds like what you want instead of the arity message 2014-06-04T20:29:19Z nisstyre: on the other hand map takes a function expecint n arguments and applies to each element of n lists where each list element is an argument (from each list) 2014-06-04T20:29:25Z nisstyre: if that makes any sense -_- 2014-06-04T20:29:40Z visualshock: ah ofcourse 2014-06-04T20:29:41Z nisstyre: rudybot: (map * '[1 2 3 4] '[4 5 6 7]) 2014-06-04T20:29:41Z rudybot: nisstyre: ; Value: '(4 10 18 28) 2014-06-04T20:31:21Z nisstyre: map is probably easiest to understand with the case of one list 2014-06-04T20:32:05Z ddp joined #scheme 2014-06-04T20:32:27Z jim: like (map (lambda (x) (+ x 1)) '(1 2 3 4)) 2014-06-04T20:36:24Z alexei joined #scheme 2014-06-04T20:36:25Z amgarchIn9 quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2014-06-04T20:36:31Z yacks quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2014-06-04T20:37:49Z Riastradh quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-04T20:55:35Z hiroakip quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2014-06-04T20:56:05Z civodul joined #scheme 2014-06-04T20:59:29Z truncate quit (Quit: WeeChat 0.4.3) 2014-06-04T21:04:06Z ddp quit (Quit: ddp) 2014-06-04T21:05:58Z `^_^v quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-04T21:10:25Z gravicappa quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-04T21:12:07Z `^_^v joined #scheme 2014-06-04T21:19:42Z hiroakip joined #scheme 2014-06-04T21:21:07Z Fare quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-04T21:23:21Z langmartin quit (Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)) 2014-06-04T21:29:35Z ddp joined #scheme 2014-06-04T21:38:02Z ASau joined #scheme 2014-06-04T21:42:26Z matheus23 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-04T21:43:24Z hiroakip quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2014-06-04T21:45:12Z mrowe_away is now known as mrowe 2014-06-04T21:45:27Z offby1 quit (Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)) 2014-06-04T21:46:30Z offby1 joined #scheme 2014-06-04T21:50:57Z cataska quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-04T21:55:51Z civodul quit (Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)) 2014-06-04T21:56:50Z cataska joined #scheme 2014-06-04T21:57:56Z hiroakip joined #scheme 2014-06-04T21:58:27Z sttau joined #scheme 2014-06-04T22:01:58Z jxv quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-06-04T22:04:18Z gcebot joined #scheme 2014-06-04T22:04:40Z rudybot quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-04T22:05:32Z offby1 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-04T22:05:51Z offby1` joined #scheme 2014-06-04T22:07:46Z fikusz_ joined #scheme 2014-06-04T22:11:46Z offby1` is now known as offby1 2014-06-04T22:11:47Z fikusz quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2014-06-04T22:11:50Z robot-beethoven joined #scheme 2014-06-04T22:11:50Z mrowe is now known as mrowe_away 2014-06-04T22:12:18Z cross quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2014-06-04T22:13:07Z cross joined #scheme 2014-06-04T22:14:05Z sonstwo joined #scheme 2014-06-04T22:14:21Z alexei quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-04T22:14:25Z ffs quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2014-06-04T22:15:01Z gcebot quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-04T22:21:20Z rudybot joined #scheme 2014-06-04T22:23:53Z offby1: rudybot: seen riastradh 2014-06-04T22:23:53Z rudybot: *offby1: Riastradh was seen joining in #scheme three hours ago, and then Riastradh was seen quitting one hour ago, saying "Remote host closed the connection" 2014-06-04T22:24:17Z ehaliewicz quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-06-04T22:25:43Z sonstwo quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-04T22:25:49Z jxv joined #scheme 2014-06-04T22:26:02Z ffs joined #scheme 2014-06-04T22:27:53Z jlongster quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-06-04T22:29:47Z visualshock: hi, I use this code to (set! wanttocount (monitor wanttocount)), but how do I reset it to the original procedure? http://pastebin.com/rKVUVPxT 2014-06-04T22:31:55Z davexunit quit (Quit: Later) 2014-06-04T22:33:33Z offby1: visualshock: save the original into some other variable first. 2014-06-04T22:34:45Z LeoNerd: .oO( fluid-let? ) 2014-06-04T22:35:56Z vraid: wouldn't it be enough to change ((equal? arg 'reset) (set! oldproc oldproc)) to ((equal? arg 'reset) oldproc) 2014-06-04T22:36:06Z vraid: and do (set! wanttocount (wanttocount 'reset)) 2014-06-04T22:36:43Z vraid: or something along those lines 2014-06-04T22:36:57Z visualshock: Just changing to ((equal? arg 'reset) oldproc) makes it work, yay. 2014-06-04T22:37:22Z visualshock: great success 2014-06-04T22:38:08Z ddp quit (Quit: ddp) 2014-06-04T22:43:58Z jaimef quit (Excess Flood) 2014-06-04T22:45:35Z jaimef joined #scheme 2014-06-04T22:46:05Z sttau quit (Quit: ZNC - http://znc.in) 2014-06-04T22:48:55Z emma joined #scheme 2014-06-04T22:49:08Z phax joined #scheme 2014-06-04T22:50:47Z sttau joined #scheme 2014-06-04T22:50:50Z sttau quit (Client Quit) 2014-06-04T22:52:05Z ddp joined #scheme 2014-06-04T22:53:44Z jlongster joined #scheme 2014-06-04T22:58:29Z jlongster quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-06-04T23:05:01Z hiroakip quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2014-06-04T23:06:57Z arrubin quit 2014-06-04T23:07:43Z Fare joined #scheme 2014-06-04T23:08:54Z Sgeo joined #scheme 2014-06-04T23:15:28Z jlongster joined #scheme 2014-06-04T23:20:21Z mrowe_away is now known as mrowe 2014-06-04T23:20:25Z jlongster quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2014-06-04T23:21:38Z akp_ is now known as akp 2014-06-04T23:26:18Z george2 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-04T23:33:50Z ericmathison joined #scheme 2014-06-04T23:35:27Z ddp quit (Quit: ddp) 2014-06-04T23:36:31Z camelCaseIsUgly joined #scheme 2014-06-04T23:38:30Z camelCaseIsUgly left #scheme 2014-06-04T23:39:16Z davexunit joined #scheme 2014-06-04T23:41:06Z oleo quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2014-06-04T23:41:47Z camelCaseIsUgly joined #scheme 2014-06-04T23:41:47Z camelCaseIsUgly quit (Client Quit) 2014-06-04T23:44:41Z hk3380 quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-06-04T23:45:42Z aranhoide quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-06-04T23:48:18Z ericmathison quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-04T23:48:59Z visualshock quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2014-06-04T23:50:13Z ericmathison joined #scheme 2014-06-04T23:54:38Z oleo joined #scheme 2014-06-05T00:05:10Z ddp joined #scheme 2014-06-05T00:05:31Z joneshf-laptop quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-05T00:06:00Z rszeno quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2014-06-05T00:08:39Z jxv quit (Quit: QUIT) 2014-06-05T00:14:38Z jlongster joined #scheme 2014-06-05T00:18:56Z ehaliewicz joined #scheme 2014-06-05T00:18:56Z offby1 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-06-05T00:19:05Z jlongster quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2014-06-05T00:21:28Z offby1 joined #scheme 2014-06-05T00:22:44Z rudybot quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-05T00:22:53Z rudybot joined #scheme 2014-06-05T00:25:19Z daviid quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2014-06-05T00:40:54Z MichaelRaskin quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2014-06-05T00:45:20Z kgb_operative joined #scheme 2014-06-05T00:45:57Z kgb_operative: hi all! 2014-06-05T00:46:23Z kgb_operative: I'm getting an error in scm that I am not sure how to fix 2014-06-05T00:46:32Z kgb_operative: ;ERROR: "file-parser.scm": unbound variable: word 2014-06-05T00:46:32Z kgb_operative: ; in expression: (word (list (read-char file))) 2014-06-05T00:46:32Z kgb_operative: ; in scope: 2014-06-05T00:46:32Z kgb_operative: ; char 2014-06-05T00:46:32Z kgb_operative: ; (split-str word char-word str-word num-word inc-line . #@define) 2014-06-05T00:46:33Z kgb_operative: ; (file line . #@let) 2014-06-05T00:46:33Z kgb_operative: ; (filename) procedure generate-lexemes 2014-06-05T00:46:34Z kgb_operative: ; defined by load: "file-parser.scm" 2014-06-05T00:46:57Z kgb_operative: i have the code here: 2014-06-05T00:46:58Z kgb_operative: https://github.com/KGBOperative/ReStMachine/blob/master/file-parser.scm 2014-06-05T00:47:48Z racycle quit (Quit: ZZZzzz…) 2014-06-05T00:48:38Z ehaliewicz quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-06-05T00:49:34Z pjb: I can't load it in bigloo, because line 11 is invalid: (set! (append char-list (read-char file))) 2014-06-05T00:50:20Z kgb_operative: does bigloo use a different version of scheme than scm? 2014-06-05T00:50:59Z pjb: I don't know. In any version, set! takes two arguments. 2014-06-05T00:52:10Z kgb_operative: right, I missed the first arg on that 2014-06-05T00:53:16Z kgb_operative: it should be (set! char-list ...) 2014-06-05T00:53:48Z pjb: Ok. Now it loads. 2014-06-05T00:54:06Z pjb: What expression do you evaluate to get the above error? 2014-06-05T00:54:46Z kgb_operative: line 72 in split-str 2014-06-05T00:55:04Z pjb: No. 2014-06-05T00:55:06Z pjb: What expression do you evaluate to get the above error? 2014-06-05T00:55:15Z pjb: How do you want me to debug it if you don't tell me how you get the error? 2014-06-05T00:55:27Z pjb: Do you want me to spend hours trying random expressions? 2014-06-05T00:55:32Z pjb: I don't have this kind of time. 2014-06-05T00:55:32Z kgb_operative: sorry, (generate-lexemes "parser-test.rsm") 2014-06-05T00:55:51Z kgb_operative: the .rsm is in the same repo 2014-06-05T00:55:52Z pjb: Thanks. File "/tmp/bigloo/runtime/Ieee/input.scm", character 5931: 2014-06-05T00:55:52Z pjb: *** ERROR:grammar: 2014-06-05T00:55:52Z pjb: Type "input-port" expected, "bbool" provided -- #f 2014-06-05T00:55:55Z pjb: 1. generate-lexemes, file-parser.scm:2 2014-06-05T00:56:00Z pjb: You really don't want me to help. 2014-06-05T00:56:09Z pjb: Why don't you provide parser-test.rsm? 2014-06-05T00:56:14Z vraaid joined #scheme 2014-06-05T00:56:41Z kgb_operative: https://github.com/KGBOperative/ReStMachine/blob/master/parser-test.rsm 2014-06-05T00:57:15Z vraid quit (Disconnected by services) 2014-06-05T00:57:16Z vraaid is now known as vraid 2014-06-05T00:57:31Z kgb_operative: the contents are pretty short: 2014-06-05T00:58:12Z arrubin joined #scheme 2014-06-05T01:01:58Z Fare quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-06-05T01:03:14Z pjb: You call word as ((word (list (read-char file)))) in split-str, but word doesn't return a 0-ary function. 2014-06-05T01:05:37Z kgb_operative: so I have it double-wrapped in parens, which attempts to call the return of the function word with zero arguments 2014-06-05T01:05:37Z kgb_operative: right? 2014-06-05T01:05:42Z pjb: In num-word you call a function named num defined nowhere. 2014-06-05T01:05:48Z pjb: Yes. 2014-06-05T01:06:05Z pjb: In lisp/scheme, parentheses mean operator application, eg. function call. 2014-06-05T01:07:35Z pjb: In cond clauses, you don't need to use begin. 2014-06-05T01:08:19Z kgb_operative: ok, so I can get rid of those then? 2014-06-05T01:08:24Z pjb: Yes. 2014-06-05T01:10:25Z kgb_operative: hmmm, i changed line 72 to (cons (num-word (list (read-char file))) (split-str))) 2014-06-05T01:10:42Z kgb_operative: and it still gives me an unbound variable error 2014-06-05T01:10:57Z kgb_operative: ;ERROR: "file-parser.scm": unbound variable: word 2014-06-05T01:10:57Z kgb_operative: ; in expression: (word (list (read-char file))) 2014-06-05T01:10:57Z kgb_operative: ; in scope: 2014-06-05T01:10:57Z kgb_operative: ; char 2014-06-05T01:10:57Z kgb_operative: ; (split-str word char-word str-word num-word inc-line . #@define) 2014-06-05T01:10:58Z kgb_operative: ; (file line . #@let) 2014-06-05T01:10:58Z kgb_operative: ; (filename) procedure generate-lexemes 2014-06-05T01:10:59Z kgb_operative: ; defined by load: "file-parser.scm" 2014-06-05T01:16:41Z kgb_operative: I think I found some miss-matched parens earlier in the function, so I'm going to check those over again and be back later if I still have issues. 2014-06-05T01:16:46Z kgb_operative: thanks for your help 2014-06-05T01:17:57Z pjb: the case num-char? in split-str contains a call to cons with 3 arguments! 2014-06-05T01:18:17Z ddp quit (Quit: ddp) 2014-06-05T01:19:32Z kgb_operative: this line? 2014-06-05T01:19:33Z kgb_operative: (cons (num-word (list (read-char file))) (split-str))) 2014-06-05T01:21:26Z jim: that looks like 2 args, so not that line 2014-06-05T01:22:52Z pjb: (cons words (num-word (list (read-char file))) (split-str))) 2014-06-05T01:22:53Z kgb_operative: oh, I changed that while waiting for help earlier 2014-06-05T01:23:02Z kgb_operative: I should update the repo 2014-06-05T01:23:25Z pjb: Otherwise, the problem you have is that you are using set! on char-list, and you're using append wrongly. 2014-06-05T01:23:41Z pjb: Append works on lists, not on atoms, you must wrap the character in a list: (set! char-list (append char-list (list (read-char file)))) 2014-06-05T01:23:45Z Fare joined #scheme 2014-06-05T01:27:37Z vinleod joined #scheme 2014-06-05T01:27:54Z pjb: kgb_operative: scheme, contrarily to languages such as C or PHP, is STRONGLY typed. 2014-06-05T01:28:07Z pjb: You cannot pass a character to a function such as list->string. You MUST pass it a list! 2014-06-05T01:28:12Z pjb: (list->string (read-char file)) is wrong! 2014-06-05T01:28:49Z kgb_operative: hmm, I seem to have overlooked that in pretty much the whole file 2014-06-05T01:30:25Z pjb: kgb_operative: http://paste.lisp.org/+326C 2014-06-05T01:31:03Z pjb: I'll leave it to you to complete the debugging. Now I get (error "bad word char at line " line), which may be normal or not. 2014-06-05T01:31:06Z jim: I've been doin my thing with converting notes and such... and now, I need a way to split a duration (like 3/8) into however many numbers that are each a power of two, and sum up to the original, so in this case we would have 1/4 and 1/8 2014-06-05T01:31:22Z jim: on the other hand I also need... 2014-06-05T01:31:55Z ffs quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2014-06-05T01:32:36Z kgb_operative: ok, I think i've got what to look for 2014-06-05T01:32:37Z kgb_operative: thanks 2014-06-05T01:32:54Z jim: ...a way to convert these same durations to sums of numbers that are each like 2^N - 1 2014-06-05T01:34:04Z jim: those are for the durations of notes, and correspond to one or more dots following the notes 2014-06-05T01:35:47Z jim: for example a duration of 7/8 for a note is a double-dotted half note 2014-06-05T01:36:07Z vinleod quit (Quit: ["Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com"]) 2014-06-05T01:39:39Z jim: or a note with duration 5/8 can be split into 1/2 and 1/8 and if they're notes they'd be tied 2014-06-05T01:41:38Z jim: I thought I could start by thinking, subtract off the biggest power of 2 first, then see if the remainder is also a power of two 2014-06-05T01:46:55Z jim: but then I realize I don't know how to find the biggest power of two below some integer. 2014-06-05T01:51:53Z Fare quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-06-05T01:54:54Z sonstwo joined #scheme 2014-06-05T01:56:28Z Fare joined #scheme 2014-06-05T02:02:48Z ANGRYSTEVE quit (Quit: Sunya in my bunya) 2014-06-05T02:03:27Z b4283 joined #scheme 2014-06-05T02:08:03Z Fare quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2014-06-05T02:15:29Z phax quit (Quit: phax) 2014-06-05T02:16:37Z jlongster joined #scheme 2014-06-05T02:17:41Z finnrobi quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-05T02:20:41Z davexunit quit (Quit: Later) 2014-06-05T02:21:08Z annodomini joined #scheme 2014-06-05T02:21:11Z jlongster quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2014-06-05T02:24:46Z sheilong joined #scheme 2014-06-05T02:24:59Z kgb_operative quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-06-05T02:25:38Z arrubin quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. 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In order to have a lisp development environment I installed LispBox http://common-lisp.net/project/lispbox/ BUT the book uses scheme. Is it simply a matter of doing M-x sheme-mode and I’m good to go or is this a niave way of thinking? 2014-06-05T12:20:42Z ecraven: Faulty: that probably won't work. But there are a few easy Schemes to install, MIT/GNU Scheme was originally used with that book, Racket has a dedicated mode for the book, and most others will probably work for almost everything too 2014-06-05T12:22:22Z Faulty: ecraven: Ok cheers looking into racket now 2014-06-05T12:23:06Z ccorn quit (Quit: ccorn) 2014-06-05T12:24:16Z ccorn joined #scheme 2014-06-05T12:26:21Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2014-06-05T12:31:47Z DGASAU quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-05T12:33:04Z DGASAU joined #scheme 2014-06-05T12:41:50Z ccorn quit (Quit: ccorn) 2014-06-05T12:43:41Z ccorn joined #scheme 2014-06-05T12:46:13Z hkBst quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-05T12:49:48Z b4283 joined #scheme 2014-06-05T12:51:35Z przl joined #scheme 2014-06-05T12:59:52Z teiresias joined #scheme 2014-06-05T13:02:15Z Riastradh joined #scheme 2014-06-05T13:09:49Z Faulty quit (Quit: cos I Quitz!) 2014-06-05T13:12:36Z sroy_ joined #scheme 2014-06-05T13:13:40Z ivan\ quit (Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)) 2014-06-05T13:14:23Z ivan\ joined #scheme 2014-06-05T13:19:42Z Fare joined #scheme 2014-06-05T13:21:59Z yosafbridge quit (Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)) 2014-06-05T13:24:15Z Guest8959 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2014-06-05T13:25:12Z josso joined #scheme 2014-06-05T13:25:13Z josso is now known as Guest10756 2014-06-05T13:25:57Z yosafbridge joined #scheme 2014-06-05T13:27:52Z davexunit joined #scheme 2014-06-05T13:29:47Z jlongster joined #scheme 2014-06-05T13:34:02Z annodomini quit (Quit: annodomini) 2014-06-05T13:34:29Z oleo joined #scheme 2014-06-05T13:36:23Z Guest10756 quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2014-06-05T13:39:04Z josso000 joined #scheme 2014-06-05T13:46:24Z matheus23 joined #scheme 2014-06-05T13:51:16Z b4283 quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2014-06-05T13:53:04Z Okasu quit (Quit: leaving) 2014-06-05T13:55:02Z b4283 joined #scheme 2014-06-05T13:59:36Z gravicappa quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-05T14:00:49Z fridim_ joined #scheme 2014-06-05T14:01:17Z b4283 quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2014-06-05T14:07:34Z cocosp joined #scheme 2014-06-05T14:19:51Z anddcs joined #scheme 2014-06-05T14:28:41Z ccorn quit (Quit: ccorn) 2014-06-05T14:29:07Z cocosp quit (Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. 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A string is just a sequence of characters, and its identity is seldom important. 2014-06-05T15:45:11Z LeoNerd: Moreover, symbols are always interned, so two symbols with the same name have the same identity and are immutable. Strings are mutable, so two strings may currently contain the same characters, but later one may be mutated so as to then be different 2014-06-05T15:46:28Z c74d quit (Excess Flood) 2014-06-05T15:46:36Z DrDuck: Okay that helps a little. 2014-06-05T15:46:38Z taylanub: that being said, allowing non-mutating string operations with symbols directly wouldn't hurt, would it? 2014-06-05T15:46:51Z civodul quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-05T15:47:07Z DrDuck: I'm on the symbolic differentiation section of SICP. I hope things will become clearer after. 2014-06-05T15:47:14Z civodul joined #scheme 2014-06-05T15:49:05Z Riastradh: taylanub, it would encourage confused code that's not sure what kind of thing it means to be working on. 2014-06-05T15:49:47Z taylanub: ok :) 2014-06-05T15:49:47Z cocosp joined #scheme 2014-06-05T15:49:53Z ddp joined #scheme 2014-06-05T15:52:53Z c74d joined #scheme 2014-06-05T15:54:50Z przl joined #scheme 2014-06-05T16:01:07Z racycle joined #scheme 2014-06-05T16:05:41Z effy quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-06-05T16:07:21Z effy joined #scheme 2014-06-05T16:11:47Z bjz quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2014-06-05T16:12:47Z pjdelport: One important practical difference is that symbols generally act like atoms, for comparison purposes: comparing them for equality is O(1). 2014-06-05T16:13:06Z pjdelport: Whereas string comparison is O(length of string). 2014-06-05T16:14:21Z civodul quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-05T16:14:39Z pjdelport: So sometimes using string data for an algorithm that expects constant-time comparisons can change the cost from O(n) to O(nm), or worse. 2014-06-05T16:19:11Z jusss joined #scheme 2014-06-05T16:22:15Z MichaelRaskin joined #scheme 2014-06-05T16:24:22Z brianmwaters joined #scheme 2014-06-05T16:26:18Z Rodya_ quit (Quit: Ex-Chat) 2014-06-05T16:28:32Z effy_ joined #scheme 2014-06-05T16:30:08Z alexei joined #scheme 2014-06-05T16:31:02Z Riastradh quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2014-06-05T16:31:23Z effy quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-05T16:32:57Z jusss quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2014-06-05T16:49:35Z cocosp quit (Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. 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ZZZzzz…) 2014-06-05T17:41:52Z wingo joined #scheme 2014-06-05T17:51:09Z effy_ is now known as effy 2014-06-05T17:53:38Z wingo quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-05T18:06:53Z developernotes joined #scheme 2014-06-05T18:10:54Z jim: how would I find the largest power of 2 less than some integer? 2014-06-05T18:11:22Z cocosp joined #scheme 2014-06-05T18:11:42Z LeoNerd: -less- than? 2014-06-05T18:12:10Z jim: for example, take the integer 5... 2014-06-05T18:12:13Z LeoNerd: I'd imagine repeated division/truncation, keeping count of how many it needed 2014-06-05T18:12:19Z jim: the largest pwr of 2 is 4 2014-06-05T18:12:40Z LeoNerd: Yes; I understand the problem, just usually people want to round up to the next power up to 2014-06-05T18:12:42Z vraid: jim: less than or equal or less than? 2014-06-05T18:12:53Z jim: less or = 2014-06-05T18:13:05Z cocosp quit (Client Quit) 2014-06-05T18:13:22Z jim: so if the int were 4, I'd want 4 2014-06-05T18:14:10Z LeoNerd: I'd recurse it: given 1, the answer is 1; else it's double the answer for half the question. 2014-06-05T18:14:30Z LeoNerd: If you see what I mean 2014-06-05T18:14:34Z vraid: jim: only positive integers, i take it? 2014-06-05T18:14:39Z jim: yes 2014-06-05T18:14:50Z jim: only pos 2014-06-05T18:15:03Z jim: so here's why: 2014-06-05T18:15:40Z jim: I might have a musical note whose duration is 5/8ths 2014-06-05T18:16:21Z jim: so I want to take the numerator as the integer, to break down the 5 into its power-of-2 sum 2014-06-05T18:16:31Z jim: aka 4 + 2 2014-06-05T18:16:37Z jim: err 4 + 1 2014-06-05T18:17:37Z jim: then, I want to put them back over the denominator and return a list (aka '(4/8 1/8)) 2014-06-05T18:18:38Z LeoNerd: Oh.. Well.. Surely then what you actually want to do is convert the number into a base-2 notation, and then that already gives you the answer? 2014-06-05T18:18:54Z LeoNerd: 5 is 0b101 at which point you know the components are 4 and 1 2014-06-05T18:18:56Z jim: yes, that will work too 2014-06-05T18:19:36Z LeoNerd: If it's for musical notation, don't forget you'll have to put the components in the right order.. which may not be numerical 2014-06-05T18:19:42Z jim: and I would like to notice the adjacent 1 bits so I can do dots 2014-06-05T18:20:04Z jim: yeah, I don't relish that part 2014-06-05T18:20:12Z LeoNerd: Hrm.. is it good practice to dot tied notes? I thought just standalone ones.. 2014-06-05T18:20:16Z jim: I have part of it 2014-06-05T18:20:28Z jim: here, want to see? 2014-06-05T18:20:31Z LeoNerd: Probably then you want to special-case if the numerator is 3 times a power of 2 2014-06-05T18:20:40Z LeoNerd: And only dot it in that case 2014-06-05T18:21:36Z jim: well there exist multidot... each additional dot is worth half the DOT it follows 2014-06-05T18:22:08Z jim: so for that, I need numbers akin to 2^N - 1 2014-06-05T18:23:21Z jim: for example, a quatruple-dotted half is the half itself plus quarter plus eighth plus sixteenth 2014-06-05T18:24:12Z jim: and for that the list of ints I want would be the runs of adjacent 1-bits 2014-06-05T18:25:34Z alexei joined #scheme 2014-06-05T18:28:06Z jaimef quit (Excess Flood) 2014-06-05T18:29:23Z jim: this is 4/4 time right now, and there is equal division (a split point in the middle shows the downbeat of 3 to its immediate right) and also 4 mandatory exceptions to equal division (where the downbeat of 3 is buried in another note) 2014-06-05T18:30:20Z jim: anyway converting to binary sounds like exactly what I need 2014-06-05T18:30:43Z jim: is there already a cool trick for that? :) 2014-06-05T18:32:54Z przl quit (Quit: leaving) 2014-06-05T18:34:24Z jaimef joined #scheme 2014-06-05T18:42:11Z b4283 quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2014-06-05T18:49:57Z ehaliewicz joined #scheme 2014-06-05T18:56:44Z theseb quit (Quit: Leaving) 2014-06-05T18:57:30Z hiroakip joined #scheme 2014-06-05T19:17:05Z brianmwaters quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2014-06-05T19:24:41Z jim: here's the repo: https://github.com/jwlynch/rests-to-duration.git 2014-06-05T19:25:27Z araujo joined #scheme 2014-06-05T19:25:27Z araujo quit (Changing host) 2014-06-05T19:25:27Z araujo joined #scheme 2014-06-05T19:35:12Z yacks quit (Quit: Leaving) 2014-06-05T19:38:31Z cocosp joined #scheme 2014-06-05T19:40:11Z cocosp quit (Client Quit) 2014-06-05T19:41:22Z cocosp joined #scheme 2014-06-05T19:43:03Z cocosp quit (Client Quit) 2014-06-05T19:44:24Z cocosp joined #scheme 2014-06-05T19:48:57Z hiroakip quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-05T19:49:46Z brianmwaters joined #scheme 2014-06-05T19:56:06Z jaimef quit (Excess Flood) 2014-06-05T20:00:48Z ASau joined #scheme 2014-06-05T20:01:23Z jaimef joined #scheme 2014-06-05T20:03:23Z cocosp quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2014-06-05T20:03:54Z hiroakip joined #scheme 2014-06-05T20:06:29Z alexei quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2014-06-05T20:06:39Z alexei joined #scheme 2014-06-05T20:09:44Z hiroakip quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2014-06-05T20:13:54Z sroy_ quit (Quit: Quitte) 2014-06-05T20:14:52Z Riastradh joined #scheme 2014-06-05T20:19:21Z developernotes quit (Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com) 2014-06-05T20:19:37Z developernotes joined #scheme 2014-06-05T20:24:41Z hiroakip joined #scheme 2014-06-05T20:28:02Z sroy joined #scheme 2014-06-05T20:28:25Z dzhus joined #scheme 2014-06-05T20:29:58Z phax quit (Quit: phax) 2014-06-05T20:33:45Z jaimef quit (Excess Flood) 2014-06-05T20:35:25Z pnkfelix joined #scheme 2014-06-05T20:37:13Z tropics quit 2014-06-05T20:39:23Z jaimef joined #scheme 2014-06-05T20:43:32Z dzhus quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-05T20:45:54Z sroy quit (Quit: Quitte) 2014-06-05T20:49:51Z zajn joined #scheme 2014-06-05T21:02:04Z brianmwaters quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2014-06-05T21:04:18Z pnkfelix quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-05T21:06:44Z civodul joined #scheme 2014-06-05T21:06:45Z daviid joined #scheme 2014-06-05T21:12:33Z brianmwaters joined #scheme 2014-06-05T21:20:26Z gravicappa quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-05T21:26:22Z davexunit quit (Quit: Later) 2014-06-05T21:26:48Z davexunit joined #scheme 2014-06-05T21:27:35Z davexunit quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-05T21:37:23Z Fare quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-06-05T21:37:23Z mrowe_away is now known as mrowe 2014-06-05T21:40:18Z matheus23 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-05T21:40:47Z jim: when I use string->list on "abcde", it gives me this weird list: '(#\a #\b #\c #\d #\e)... what's up with this and how can I do things with the chars in the list? 2014-06-05T21:41:18Z DrDuck quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-05T21:48:06Z taylanub: jim: those are chars 2014-06-05T21:48:25Z jim: got the docs on them now 2014-06-05T21:49:19Z ddp quit (Quit: ddp) 2014-06-05T21:49:38Z jim: is that just guile? 2014-06-05T21:51:24Z taylanub: standard since a while I think 2014-06-05T21:52:13Z ddp joined #scheme 2014-06-05T21:54:13Z taylanub: dates back to at least R2RS. :P probably descended from MacLisp, which Scheme was originally implemented on, and possibly dates back farther. Common Lisp seems to use the same 2014-06-05T21:58:37Z jim: good to know... sounds portable to me... 2014-06-05T21:58:55Z civodul quit (Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)) 2014-06-05T22:00:01Z brianmwaters quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2014-06-05T22:00:32Z robot-beethoven joined #scheme 2014-06-05T22:02:35Z developernotes quit (Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com) 2014-06-05T22:12:29Z phax joined #scheme 2014-06-05T22:15:37Z mrowe is now known as mrowe_away 2014-06-05T22:25:39Z theseb joined #scheme 2014-06-05T22:31:53Z MichaelRaskin quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-05T22:46:37Z theseb left #scheme 2014-06-05T22:50:15Z brianmwaters joined #scheme 2014-06-05T22:51:04Z sheilong joined #scheme 2014-06-05T22:58:15Z hiroakip quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2014-06-05T23:04:01Z arrubin quit 2014-06-05T23:05:10Z Sgeo joined #scheme 2014-06-05T23:09:47Z Fare joined #scheme 2014-06-05T23:11:56Z pjb: jim: you can do with characters anything you want. An intersting thing is to use list->string: (list->string (reverse (string->list "hello"))) 2014-06-05T23:29:31Z Fare quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2014-06-05T23:30:55Z zajn quit 2014-06-05T23:31:28Z mrowe_away is now known as mrowe 2014-06-05T23:32:28Z phax quit (Quit: phax) 2014-06-05T23:35:37Z Fare joined #scheme 2014-06-05T23:35:41Z danv joined #scheme 2014-06-05T23:37:54Z safety quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-05T23:40:37Z FractalFive quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-05T23:49:29Z ddp quit (Quit: ddp) 2014-06-06T00:00:23Z klltkr quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-06-06T00:01:05Z jxv joined #scheme 2014-06-06T00:03:24Z ivan\ quit (Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)) 2014-06-06T00:04:01Z ivan\ joined #scheme 2014-06-06T00:04:33Z ddp joined #scheme 2014-06-06T00:11:39Z Fare quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2014-06-06T00:12:45Z rtra joined #scheme 2014-06-06T00:14:56Z m4burns: w/in 9 2014-06-06T00:19:16Z karswell joined #scheme 2014-06-06T00:22:35Z ddp quit (Quit: ddp) 2014-06-06T00:24:28Z Fare joined #scheme 2014-06-06T00:25:37Z oleo is now known as Guest66915 2014-06-06T00:27:05Z oleo__ joined #scheme 2014-06-06T00:28:46Z arrubin joined #scheme 2014-06-06T00:29:05Z Guest66915 quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-06-06T00:32:56Z aeth joined #scheme 2014-06-06T00:34:16Z jxv quit (Quit: QUIT) 2014-06-06T00:40:39Z alexei quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2014-06-06T00:45:39Z annodomini quit (Quit: annodomini) 2014-06-06T00:48:35Z racycle quit (Quit: ZZZzzz…) 2014-06-06T00:49:42Z bitaco joined #scheme 2014-06-06T00:55:23Z Fare quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2014-06-06T00:56:45Z Fare joined #scheme 2014-06-06T00:58:16Z klltkr joined #scheme 2014-06-06T01:12:35Z chrisirc: Is there a paradigm/pattern how to write complex predicates so that they can optionally report where they fail? 2014-06-06T01:13:13Z chrisirc: (i.e. *why* they return false, like which expression, on which value) 2014-06-06T01:17:31Z Natch quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-06-06T01:18:29Z brianmwaters quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2014-06-06T01:18:38Z jim: I guess you'd have to have something like an exception throwing thing, or have your predicates return something other than #t #f 2014-06-06T01:18:45Z SHODAN quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-06T01:19:00Z jim: and if you do that, then you'd have to adjust the callers 2014-06-06T01:19:54Z Natch joined #scheme 2014-06-06T01:20:22Z SHODAN joined #scheme 2014-06-06T01:20:56Z rtra: can't you write a macro to wrap every predicate into a logger? 2014-06-06T01:22:56Z jim: maybe if you had predicates that threw some kind of (#t/f "reason" "maybe err number"), and for each of those you had a predicate driver that calls the predicate and extracts the #t/f and returns that so you can call the predicate without worrying about the rest of the return value, or call the inner predicate when you wanted more of an explanation and/or error message 2014-06-06T01:23:33Z Fare quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2014-06-06T01:23:51Z jim: I'm not so sure I advocate what I'm saying, at least not in favor of factoring at fine enough granularity so that return values are self-explanitlry 2014-06-06T01:24:23Z jim: not so sure I advocate it because it adds a lot of crap 2014-06-06T01:25:17Z jim: sometimes you just want to get the shit done... 2014-06-06T01:27:05Z jim: going back to the predicates... if there is only one way they can be true and only one way false, they're self-explanitory 2014-06-06T01:28:33Z phax joined #scheme 2014-06-06T01:29:58Z Fare joined #scheme 2014-06-06T01:30:34Z pjb: chrisirc: in CL we could consider returning several values, but if we did the same in scheme it would be a major inconvenience, since any function that returns several values in scheme must be called in a very special way. In CL, the additional values are just ignored if not taken into account 2014-06-06T01:31:38Z pjb: chrisirc: therefore it seems the only convenient alternative would be to add an optional parameter to the predicate, asking for the justification, and returning the justification instead of the predicate value. 2014-06-06T01:32:33Z pjb: It should be noted that you want to know the subcondition that failed the predicate, and therefore you want a non #f result when the predicate would return #f (assumedly, when the predicate returns #t, there's no subcondition to signal out since they all were true). 2014-06-06T01:33:28Z pjb: That said, you could have more complex predicates, eg (or (and a b) (and c d)) so even when the predicate is true, you could want to give a complete justification. 2014-06-06T01:34:25Z chrisirc: Yes, so I'd need special |or| and |and| forms, also, special functions that contain those like |count| etc., 2014-06-06T01:34:42Z Fare: OR, pass a callback to call with the additional results 2014-06-06T01:34:50Z brianmwaters joined #scheme 2014-06-06T01:34:53Z chrisirc: it's rather hairy quickly, kind of needs a different language or front-end. 2014-06-06T01:35:05Z Fare: which callback can use a continuation if needed 2014-06-06T01:35:06Z pjb: Basically, something like: (define (p? object . justification?) (if (null? justification?) (and a b c) `(and a= ,a b= ,b c= ,c))) 2014-06-06T01:35:29Z pjb: Of course, you can write a macro to generate both branches of the alternative from a single expression. 2014-06-06T01:36:53Z chrisirc: But ditching the "auto-explanation" part, and hand-coding manually the reasons why something fails, the question is still what to return; 2014-06-06T01:37:12Z chrisirc: Perl6 style "false objects" would fit the bill.. 2014-06-06T01:37:25Z Fare: chrisirc: maybe you want something more declarative 2014-06-06T01:37:46Z Fare: have you read Jacques Pitrat's "Artificial Beings"? 2014-06-06T01:37:59Z chrisirc: I think I'm simply returning #t for true, and an error object in the false case. 2014-06-06T01:38:18Z chrisirc: No? 2014-06-06T01:38:41Z pjb: My suggestion is to return a sexp for the justification. 2014-06-06T01:39:45Z pjb: You could write it as: (and (and #f 'a) (or #t 'b)) so that it would even be evaluable if you wanted to get the predicate value from the justification sexp. 2014-06-06T01:40:03Z pjb: instead of (and a= #f b= #t). 2014-06-06T01:40:43Z chrisirc: heh 2014-06-06T01:41:20Z daviid quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2014-06-06T01:43:29Z jeapostrophe joined #scheme 2014-06-06T01:43:29Z jeapostrophe quit (Changing host) 2014-06-06T01:43:29Z jeapostrophe joined #scheme 2014-06-06T01:46:57Z brianmwaters quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2014-06-06T01:48:25Z brianmwaters joined #scheme 2014-06-06T02:05:51Z bitaco quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2014-06-06T02:07:35Z b4283 joined #scheme 2014-06-06T02:07:45Z bitaco joined #scheme 2014-06-06T02:11:03Z jim: what's (and 'somesymbol #t)? 2014-06-06T02:17:56Z jeapostrophe quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2014-06-06T02:18:46Z jeapostrophe joined #scheme 2014-06-06T02:25:52Z Fare quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2014-06-06T02:26:03Z klltkr_ joined #scheme 2014-06-06T02:26:51Z klltkr quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2014-06-06T02:40:30Z ANGRYSTEVE quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-06-06T02:43:32Z pjb: jim: #t 2014-06-06T02:44:42Z pjb: http://www.schemers.org/Documents/Standards/R5RS/HTML/r5rs-Z-H-7.html#%_idx_118 2014-06-06T02:44:42Z rudybot: Error 2014-06-06T02:48:56Z brianmwaters quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2014-06-06T02:51:28Z jim: which means a symbol is considered true? 2014-06-06T02:52:10Z vinleod quit (Quit: ["Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com"]) 2014-06-06T02:56:20Z jim: rudybot eval (and 'fll #t) 2014-06-06T02:57:28Z jim: ! 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2014-06-06T18:55:27Z turbofail: if (surfaceAndLaunchMissiles = TRUE) { ... } 2014-06-06T18:55:28Z LeoNerd: Oh, I wouldn't write C at sea 2014-06-06T18:58:14Z DrDuck: What makes symbolic manipulation important outside of the context of computer algebra systems? 2014-06-06T18:58:22Z phax quit (Quit: phax) 2014-06-06T18:59:43Z pjb: For example, instead of computing a lot of floats to determine if two objects will collide, you cold solve equations symbolically to show that they won't collide, and get a more precise result faster. 2014-06-06T18:59:53Z davexunit quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-06T19:00:14Z davexunit joined #scheme 2014-06-06T19:00:28Z turbofail: also, compilers are basically doing a bunch of symbolic manipulation 2014-06-06T19:10:29Z twem2 joined #scheme 2014-06-06T19:12:18Z aranhoide quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-06T19:13:27Z twem2_ quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2014-06-06T19:15:51Z tenq is now known as tenq|out 2014-06-06T19:16:22Z aranhoide 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CASes just do a particular kind of it. :) 2014-06-06T19:40:49Z twem2 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-06-06T19:44:08Z twem2 joined #scheme 2014-06-06T19:46:04Z eflynn: which scheme implementation has the best repl? 2014-06-06T19:46:04Z twem2 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-06-06T19:46:07Z eflynn: or a decent one 2014-06-06T19:46:17Z eflynn: mit-scheme seems to suck in that area 2014-06-06T19:46:29Z NinjaPenguin quit (Quit: ZNC - http://znc.in) 2014-06-06T19:47:25Z mario-goulart: eflynn: what do you need? 2014-06-06T19:47:45Z eflynn: mario-goulart: command history 2014-06-06T19:48:27Z Guest9620 quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2014-06-06T19:49:08Z twem2 joined #scheme 2014-06-06T19:49:52Z pjdelport: eflynn: You can use rlwrap as a stopgap solution. 2014-06-06T19:50:19Z ehaliewicz joined #scheme 2014-06-06T19:50:30Z eflynn: pjdelport: racket has it included: http://docs.racket-lang.org/readline/index.html?q=~a 2014-06-06T19:50:48Z josso000 joined #scheme 2014-06-06T19:51:25Z mario-goulart: Or you can run the repl as an emacs inferior process. 2014-06-06T19:51:53Z eflynn: mario-goulart: yeah, i’m too lazy, i feel like it should be available from the command line 2014-06-06T19:53:02Z twem2 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-06-06T19:53:44Z mario-goulart: eflynn: I think it is the default gambit's interpreter. CHICKEN supports it via some eggs (e.g., parley, readline). 2014-06-06T19:54:00Z jim: eflynn, then rebuild 2014-06-06T19:54:04Z mario-goulart: on* gambit's interpreter 2014-06-06T19:54:08Z twem2 joined #scheme 2014-06-06T19:54:22Z jim: oh, gambit? thought you were talkin about guile 2014-06-06T19:54:41Z twem2 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-06-06T19:55:03Z NinjaPenguin joined #scheme 2014-06-06T19:55:08Z mario-goulart: eflynn was talking about mit-scheme 2014-06-06T19:55:35Z annodomini joined #scheme 2014-06-06T19:57:27Z josso000 quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2014-06-06T19:58:28Z eflynn: i’m not picky about implementation, just good repl 2014-06-06T19:58:44Z daviid quit (Excess Flood) 2014-06-06T19:59:02Z Intensity quit (Write error: Broken pipe) 2014-06-06T19:59:08Z twem2 joined #scheme 2014-06-06T19:59:26Z twem2 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-06-06T19:59:48Z josso000 joined #scheme 2014-06-06T20:01:32Z mornfall quit (Excess Flood) 2014-06-06T20:01:49Z mornfall joined #scheme 2014-06-06T20:03:27Z Intensity joined #scheme 2014-06-06T20:04:09Z twem2 joined #scheme 2014-06-06T20:05:30Z sroy quit (Quit: Quitte) 2014-06-06T20:13:20Z jim: eflynn when you build guile and libreadline's dev part happens to be in a sitewide place, the repl will act like rlwrap were called, if you activate it with a config file 2014-06-06T20:13:35Z yacks quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2014-06-06T20:14:47Z eflynn: jim: thanks. I put “(require readline)” in my ~/.racketrc file, and that suits me. the readline-lib package has to be installed (with raco, the racket package manager) 2014-06-06T20:15:03Z jim: well there ya go :) 2014-06-06T20:16:59Z eflynn: jim: then again, i’m not sure if it’s giving me scheme with a bunch of extensions i don’t care for, or just vanilla scheme 2014-06-06T20:19:09Z jim: probably it's built to have the extensions, and you may have t load them 2014-06-06T20:19:52Z jim: from the package maintainer's angle, he wants to make as much possible as possible 2014-06-06T20:21:54Z jim: it sounds like you at least want the possibility of the plain-vanilla when you want it... 2014-06-06T20:23:43Z ByronJoh1son joined #scheme 2014-06-06T20:23:53Z eflynn: jim: it doesn’t have set-car! :/ 2014-06-06T20:24:48Z jim: replca/replcd? 2014-06-06T20:24:52Z cjh`_ joined #scheme 2014-06-06T20:25:04Z ddp quit (Quit: ddp) 2014-06-06T20:25:59Z jim: guile does 2014-06-06T20:26:09Z jlongster quit (Excess Flood) 2014-06-06T20:26:12Z Riastradh quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2014-06-06T20:26:28Z jim: well the guile2.0.11 I built recently does 2014-06-06T20:26:38Z cjh` quit (Write error: Broken pipe) 2014-06-06T20:26:48Z ByronJohnson quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-06T20:26:50Z mario-goulart: As far as I understand, Racket is not Scheme, although it provides some scheme implementations. Don't know what the repl assumes by default, but I'd guess it's racket. 2014-06-06T20:28:41Z eflynn: jim: there’s a tip in the man page about how to enable readline for guile. i have the same guile version 2014-06-06T20:29:31Z jim: yeah, that will work if, when it was built, it could pick up the libreadline header files 2014-06-06T20:30:16Z ddp joined #scheme 2014-06-06T20:35:50Z eflynn quit (Quit: eflynn) 2014-06-06T20:45:48Z matheus23 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-06T21:05:14Z pera quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2014-06-06T21:05:20Z vraid quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-06-06T21:05:36Z vraid joined #scheme 2014-06-06T21:08:12Z brianmwaters quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2014-06-06T21:09:21Z Rptx joined #scheme 2014-06-06T21:16:32Z 6JTAAYQXT joined #scheme 2014-06-06T21:16:45Z 6JTAAYQXT quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-06T21:16:50Z FractalFive quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-06-06T21:17:11Z FractalFive joined #scheme 2014-06-06T21:18:25Z phax joined #scheme 2014-06-06T21:18:38Z josso000 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-06T21:20:49Z josso joined #scheme 2014-06-06T21:20:59Z josso is now known as Guest63401 2014-06-06T21:27:05Z ddp quit (Quit: ddp) 2014-06-06T21:30:17Z phax quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-06-06T21:30:47Z phax joined #scheme 2014-06-06T21:31:21Z phax left #scheme 2014-06-06T21:35:39Z phax joined #scheme 2014-06-06T21:38:58Z ddp joined #scheme 2014-06-06T21:41:32Z brianmwaters joined #scheme 2014-06-06T21:54:47Z sheilong quit (Quit: bbl) 2014-06-06T21:56:24Z rszeno quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2014-06-06T21:59:39Z phax quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-06-06T21:59:52Z langmart` joined #scheme 2014-06-06T21:59:58Z phax joined #scheme 2014-06-06T22:00:39Z ddp quit (Quit: ddp) 2014-06-06T22:02:25Z gravicappa quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-06T22:02:58Z langmartin quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-06T22:03:03Z davexunit quit (Quit: Later) 2014-06-06T22:04:32Z langmart` quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-06T22:17:38Z eflynn joined #scheme 2014-06-06T22:21:05Z ASau joined #scheme 2014-06-06T22:24:11Z arrubin quit 2014-06-06T22:26:20Z mrowe_away is now known as mrowe 2014-06-06T22:26:34Z arrubin joined #scheme 2014-06-06T22:27:31Z Fare quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-06T22:28:26Z eflynn quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-06T22:44:16Z civodul quit (Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)) 2014-06-06T22:46:08Z brianmwaters quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2014-06-06T22:58:23Z eflynn joined #scheme 2014-06-06T23:16:18Z annodomini quit (Quit: annodomini) 2014-06-06T23:20:35Z duggiefresh quit 2014-06-06T23:24:26Z KrazyCod3r joined #scheme 2014-06-06T23:25:40Z KrazyCod3r: Hey guys, for Sicp, does just downloading the windows binary is enough to get a compiler/interpeter working so i can follow along the course ? 2014-06-06T23:27:02Z mrowe is now known as mrowe_away 2014-06-06T23:35:22Z Sgeo joined #scheme 2014-06-06T23:41:22Z wilfredh joined #scheme 2014-06-06T23:43:08Z jxv quit (Quit: QUIT) 2014-06-06T23:43:15Z b4283 joined #scheme 2014-06-06T23:48:26Z aranhoide quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-06T23:50:44Z jeapostrophe joined #scheme 2014-06-06T23:50:56Z jeapostrophe quit (Changing host) 2014-06-06T23:50:56Z jeapostrophe joined #scheme 2014-06-06T23:53:13Z aretecode joined #scheme 2014-06-06T23:54:26Z eflynn quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-06T23:58:57Z racycle quit (Quit: ZZZzzz…) 2014-06-07T00:09:51Z eflynn joined #scheme 2014-06-07T00:25:25Z pjb: KrazyCod3r: if you mean Racket, yes. 2014-06-07T00:26:03Z eflynn quit (Quit: eflynn) 2014-06-07T00:26:04Z KrazyCod3r: pjb: oh hey, thought no one would answer 2014-06-07T01:01:10Z jeapostrophe quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2014-06-07T01:08:44Z jim: it is rare, but it does happen 2014-06-07T01:12:02Z jim: and yes, the rocket racket thing is probably fine, guile, gnu mit scheme, drscheme, many others. BTW, the book is online free and there are the 1985 sussman/abelson videos, which are really good 2014-06-07T01:19:04Z peted joined #scheme 2014-06-07T01:34:52Z eflynn joined #scheme 2014-06-07T01:40:15Z ehaliewicz quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-07T01:40:26Z z0d quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2014-06-07T01:40:44Z ehaliewicz joined #scheme 2014-06-07T01:48:31Z eflynn quit (Quit: eflynn) 2014-06-07T01:57:24Z brianmwaters joined #scheme 2014-06-07T02:03:44Z oleo is now known as Guest3563 2014-06-07T02:05:12Z oleo__ joined #scheme 2014-06-07T02:06:27Z Guest3563 quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-06-07T02:11:01Z z0d joined #scheme 2014-06-07T02:23:08Z wilfredh quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2014-06-07T02:33:29Z KrazyCod3r: jim: sorry for being late 2014-06-07T02:33:43Z KrazyCod3r: jim: Well yeah am following both the lectures and the book 2014-06-07T02:40:51Z ANGRYSTEVE quit (Quit: Sunya in my bunya) 2014-06-07T03:01:55Z vinleod quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.) 2014-06-07T03:08:56Z Rptx quit (Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)) 2014-06-07T03:40:16Z KrazyCod3r quit (Quit: Page closed) 2014-06-07T03:55:17Z racycle joined #scheme 2014-06-07T04:08:10Z sigjuice_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-07T04:08:28Z sigjuice joined #scheme 2014-06-07T04:10:19Z brianmwaters quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-07T04:16:28Z araujo quit (Quit: Leaving) 2014-06-07T04:19:46Z brianmwaters joined #scheme 2014-06-07T04:27:32Z yacks joined #scheme 2014-06-07T04:33:19Z tenq is now known as tenq|out 2014-06-07T04:56:24Z racycle quit (Quit: ZZZzzz…) 2014-06-07T04:59:53Z MouldyOldBones quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-07T05:01:19Z MouldyOldBones joined #scheme 2014-06-07T05:07:59Z bjz joined #scheme 2014-06-07T05:18:02Z sheilong joined #scheme 2014-06-07T05:33:22Z phax left #scheme 2014-06-07T06:07:20Z yacks quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-07T06:08:42Z phipes joined #scheme 2014-06-07T06:08:51Z arrubin quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. 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seconds) 2014-06-07T18:15:38Z BitPuffin joined #scheme 2014-06-07T18:19:49Z alexei quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2014-06-07T18:23:52Z alexei joined #scheme 2014-06-07T18:24:21Z fantazo joined #scheme 2014-06-07T18:33:37Z aftershave quit (Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com) 2014-06-07T18:34:19Z hkBst joined #scheme 2014-06-07T18:51:27Z joneshf-laptop joined #scheme 2014-06-07T18:56:18Z matheus23 joined #scheme 2014-06-07T19:13:21Z alexei quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2014-06-07T19:15:05Z aranhoide joined #scheme 2014-06-07T19:23:26Z jim: I want to take an int, turn it into bits and find the runs of 1-bits, and put them in a list 2014-06-07T19:25:18Z hkBst quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-07T19:25:47Z jim: I have some stuff coded already, one for just getting the powers of 2, that works fine... 2014-06-07T19:26:45Z pera quit (Quit: leaving) 2014-06-07T19:27:35Z jim: https://github.com/jwlynch/rests-to-duration.git, the power of 2 stuff is in note-durations.scm 2014-06-07T19:29:45Z annodomini joined #scheme 2014-06-07T19:36:59Z taylanub: jim: Scheme doesn't have an "int" and it won't leak any implementation details about the bit-level representation of a number, only supporting mathematical operations on it (which will also usually be resilient against mechanic limitations, and won't "overflow" or anything, though it depends on the implementation). However, R6RS has a "fixnum" library which you might be interested in. 2014-06-07T19:45:07Z jim: taylanub, if you take a look, you'll see that I convert to a bit string, which is converted to a list of chars and reversed... so all that part is taken care of... 2014-06-07T19:46:58Z jim: it's reversed so I can keep track of a doubling power of 2 (instead of starting on the right and halfing) 2014-06-07T19:47:37Z jim: this is using guile2.0.11 2014-06-07T19:48:01Z jim: if you don't have time, no problem, I'll keep on pluggin 2014-06-07T19:49:35Z jim: I'm depending on the exactness of rationals here 2014-06-07T19:53:09Z diginet joined #scheme 2014-06-07T19:54:48Z taylanub: when you speak of an "int" and bits, it sounds like you mean some low-level operations as one would be used to from C and such; it might be clearer to say that you just want the base-2 representation of a number, which is indeed what (number->string x 2) does as I see you've found out 2014-06-07T19:55:24Z taylanub: by the way the following coding style is recommended for Scheme: http://mumble.net/~campbell/scheme/style.txt 2014-06-07T19:55:37Z eflynn joined #scheme 2014-06-07T19:55:42Z jim: it does sound that way... and, I use a function to convert the number to a bit string 2014-06-07T19:57:10Z taylanub: very strictly speaking they're not "bits", just base-2 digits. :) ironically, the term "bit" comes from "binary digit" indeed but when I hear bit I certainly think of the machine-level representation of data, which Scheme generally doesn't give access to. maybe I'm being too pedantic though 2014-06-07T19:57:21Z aranhoide quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2014-06-07T19:57:51Z jim: yeah, I'm not necessarily looking to breach abstraction, but I do need those bits so I can convert duration to a sequence of powers of 2 or else numbers akin to 2^n - 1 (sequences of 1-bits) to get a sequence of dotted durations 2014-06-07T19:57:55Z taylanub: by the way Emacs with Paredit are also huge helps for editing Lisp code in case you're not using them already. (I heard Vim also has Paredit) 2014-06-07T19:57:55Z zeroish joined #scheme 2014-06-07T19:58:07Z alexei joined #scheme 2014-06-07T19:59:35Z aranhoide joined #scheme 2014-06-07T19:59:36Z jim: about the parens, I'm pretty much a die-hard match-column kinda guy... it helps me to see where structures begin and end 2014-06-07T20:00:30Z taylanub: the recommended Scheme style also tends to put things in columns, just in a more concise way 2014-06-07T20:01:43Z phax joined #scheme 2014-06-07T20:05:05Z jim: I'm here more looking for ideas on how I can group the bits... if left to my own devices, I'd probably write a func that looks more like a parser that looks at one bit at a time, and uses the calls to "collect" the series of 1-bits, hold their summed values in paraameters and outputs to cons when the "next" is either a zero-bit or end of the list 2014-06-07T20:06:36Z jeapostrophe joined #scheme 2014-06-07T20:06:36Z jeapostrophe quit (Changing host) 2014-06-07T20:06:36Z jeapostrophe joined 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Writing one for infix form for part a. of 2.58 was not difficult: https://www.refheap.com/86370 2014-06-08T01:53:22Z DrDuck: It's thinking of the b. part that really has me lost. 2014-06-08T01:54:53Z DrDuck: I'm going to need to reduce expressions that deal with multiplication, since the problem wants multiplication to have precedence over addition, or would I be able to work with the expressions as they're initially given? :O 2014-06-08T01:56:16Z offby1: oy 2014-06-08T01:56:22Z offby1: no idea how to do that part b 2014-06-08T01:56:26Z offby1: that's some part, that part b. 2014-06-08T01:57:04Z DrDuck: oy 2014-06-08T02:08:12Z aranhoide quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2014-06-08T02:08:15Z eflynn quit (Quit: eflynn) 2014-06-08T02:11:27Z aranhoide joined #scheme 2014-06-08T02:14:13Z eflynn joined #scheme 2014-06-08T02:14:40Z davexunit quit (Quit: Later) 2014-06-08T02:16:42Z eflynn quit (Client Quit) 2014-06-08T02:28:13Z tenq|out is now known as tenq 2014-06-08T02:46:45Z DrDuck: Well I have a solution, but I'm not sure if it's acceptable or not. 2014-06-08T02:55:42Z annodomini joined #scheme 2014-06-08T03:00:33Z racycle_ joined #scheme 2014-06-08T03:08:26Z Rptx quit (Quit: gonna sleep!) 2014-06-08T03:15:52Z george2 joined #scheme 2014-06-08T03:21:50Z oleo is now known as Guest7031 2014-06-08T03:23:21Z oleo__ joined #scheme 2014-06-08T03:23:57Z cataska quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-06-08T03:24:12Z cataska joined #scheme 2014-06-08T03:25:12Z Guest7031 quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-06-08T03:33:02Z Guest63401 quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2014-06-08T03:37:33Z phax quit (Quit: phax) 2014-06-08T03:41:50Z josso joined #scheme 2014-06-08T03:41:58Z josso is now known as Guest87324 2014-06-08T03:55:47Z bjz quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2014-06-08T04:01:45Z jxv joined #scheme 2014-06-08T04:12:46Z phax joined #scheme 2014-06-08T04:13:52Z bjz joined #scheme 2014-06-08T04:23:55Z annodomini quit (Quit: annodomini) 2014-06-08T04:35:05Z Guest87324 quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2014-06-08T04:36:50Z jxv quit (Quit: QUIT) 2014-06-08T04:40:01Z jusss joined #scheme 2014-06-08T04:41:29Z aranhoide quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-08T04:41:55Z josso joined #scheme 2014-06-08T04:42:19Z josso is now known as Guest72194 2014-06-08T04:42:32Z phax left #scheme 2014-06-08T04:43:07Z jusss quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-08T04:46:44Z Guest72194 quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2014-06-08T04:47:22Z josso000 joined #scheme 2014-06-08T04:51:05Z nisstyre: this is amazing http://youtu.be/9SfaX-w5-Eg 2014-06-08T05:09:28Z arrubin quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. 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An IP address is a 32 bit integer, which for human convenience usually is written as four 8 bit integers. 2014-06-08T12:00:24Z cibs quit (*.net *.split) 2014-06-08T12:00:24Z tali713 quit (*.net *.split) 2014-06-08T12:00:29Z ozkar: true, but i am trying to comeup with a general rule for converting nested loops to maps. 2014-06-08T12:00:34Z davexunit: yeah, you just need to write a little helper procedure to convert the address to a dotted decimal notation string. 2014-06-08T12:00:50Z taylanub: ozkar: an imperative-style loop would generally be converted to `do' and not `map' 2014-06-08T12:02:01Z davexunit: I don't know how well that rule works. 2014-06-08T12:02:16Z davexunit: because we don't always want to use map. 2014-06-08T12:02:38Z tali713 joined #scheme 2014-06-08T12:02:40Z davexunit: in your case, you have 4 loop variables, and the result is a single list of ip addresses. 2014-06-08T12:03:18Z davexunit: it's not 1 to 1. 2014-06-08T12:03:55Z Oejet: ozkar: Loops can be translated into tail recursive functions. 2014-06-08T12:04:02Z taylanub: well yeah, imperative style is likely to create a mutable collection object then add to it in the innermost loop; in FP style you'd create the structure more "declaratively" with stuff like map 2014-06-08T12:04:54Z taylanub: you can always do a pretty much 1-1 translation from `while'/`for' to `do', but that'll just be imperative Scheme code 2014-06-08T12:05:19Z hiroakip joined #scheme 2014-06-08T12:05:40Z cibs joined #scheme 2014-06-08T12:07:22Z davexunit: taylanub: you can translate into a functional style well, too. 2014-06-08T12:07:35Z davexunit: the while/for condition becomes the termination condition of the recursive procedure. 2014-06-08T12:07:38Z spaceotter joined #scheme 2014-06-08T12:19:38Z gravicappa quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-08T12:20:44Z DrDuck quit (*.net *.split) 2014-06-08T12:20:58Z gravicappa joined #scheme 2014-06-08T12:21:05Z ozkar left #scheme 2014-06-08T12:24:04Z phax joined #scheme 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2014-06-08T23:51:11Z haroldwu joined #scheme 2014-06-09T00:01:44Z taylanub quit (Quit: Using Circe, the loveliest of all IRC clients) 2014-06-09T00:07:23Z josso000 quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2014-06-09T00:07:53Z taylanub joined #scheme 2014-06-09T00:15:16Z KrazyCod3r joined #scheme 2014-06-09T00:15:38Z KrazyCod3r: !help 2014-06-09T00:15:45Z KrazyCod3r: is there a bot here ? 2014-06-09T00:15:50Z offby1: rudybot: you awake? 2014-06-09T00:15:53Z rudybot: *offby1: I would need less blood in the caffeine vessels to be really awake... 2014-06-09T00:15:59Z KrazyCod3r: haha 2014-06-09T00:16:09Z KrazyCod3r: how do I evaluate some statement ? 2014-06-09T00:16:14Z offby1: rudybot: eval (+ 1 2 3) 2014-06-09T00:16:14Z rudybot: *offby1: ; Value: 6 2014-06-09T00:16:22Z KrazyCod3r: Awesome lol 2014-06-09T00:16:29Z offby1: you can switch languages, too, if you're lucky: 2014-06-09T00:16:33Z offby1: rudybot: init typed/racket 2014-06-09T00:16:34Z rudybot: *offby1: error: evaluator: terminated (out-of-memory) 2014-06-09T00:16:40Z KrazyCod3r: : 2014-06-09T00:16:41Z KrazyCod3r: :/ 2014-06-09T00:16:45Z jim: you have your own scheme interpreter? 2014-06-09T00:16:47Z offby1: sometimes the magic works; sometimes it doesn't 2014-06-09T00:16:53Z offby1: rudybot: init racket 2014-06-09T00:16:53Z rudybot: *offby1: your sandbox is ready 2014-06-09T00:17:05Z KrazyCod3r: jim: am using GNU MIT Scheme 2014-06-09T00:17:17Z KrazyCod3r: following SICP 2014-06-09T00:17:20Z offby1: rudybot: init r6rs 2014-06-09T00:17:20Z rudybot: *offby1: error: r6rs: must contain a `library' form (for a library) or start with `import' (for a top-level program) in: (#%module-begin) 2014-06-09T00:17:23Z offby1: *sigh* 2014-06-09T00:17:33Z KrazyCod3r: Lol 2014-06-09T00:17:38Z offby1: pretty sure _some_ languages other than "racket" work, but I'm damned if I know which. 2014-06-09T00:17:40Z jim: good enough :) so: 2014-06-09T00:17:46Z racycle_ joined #scheme 2014-06-09T00:17:52Z jim: what is the problem that has you stumpped? 2014-06-09T00:18:00Z KrazyCod3r: Nothing really o.o 2014-06-09T00:18:13Z KrazyCod3r: Oh how do you evaluate something in MIT GNU SCHEME 2014-06-09T00:18:19Z KrazyCod3r: I use c-x c-e 2014-06-09T00:18:26Z KrazyCod3r: Is there an easier way to do that 2014-06-09T00:18:39Z jim: well you can load a file or type it in 2014-06-09T00:18:54Z jim: I like the file thing, because then you have a record of it 2014-06-09T00:19:20Z KrazyCod3r: Oh so how do I do that 2014-06-09T00:19:21Z offby1: I imagine you can use Edwin kinda like you'd use DrRacket. 2014-06-09T00:19:24Z offby1: Haven't tried it in years though 2014-06-09T00:19:47Z jim: KrazyCod3r, what happens when you try? 2014-06-09T00:19:51Z KrazyCod3r: What do you currently use offby1 2014-06-09T00:20:14Z offby1: KrazyCod3r: emacs & geiser, but the sad truth is that I do very little scheme these days 2014-06-09T00:21:10Z dEPy quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-06-09T00:21:19Z jim: we should help you get going with mitgnu scheme... 2014-06-09T00:21:42Z jim: fo first, what is the name of the executable? 2014-06-09T00:22:49Z KrazyCod3r: I don't really understand how mitgnu scheme works 2014-06-09T00:23:12Z KrazyCod3r: So that would be helpful ! 2014-06-09T00:23:20Z jim: ok. it might work like guile, but that's a guess and I should install it 2014-06-09T00:24:02Z jim: so here's what I'm going to do now... I will install gnu/mit scheme and play with it for a sec and report back 2014-06-09T00:24:11Z KrazyCod3r: Okay jim 2014-06-09T00:24:18Z KrazyCod3r: Thanks a lot 2014-06-09T00:24:45Z jim: no problem... you do need a way to eval lisp expressions if you want to do sicp :) 2014-06-09T00:25:03Z jim: now, how did you install it? what 2014-06-09T00:25:09Z jim: is your os? 2014-06-09T00:25:10Z offby1: gaah, it runs under X on OS X.. pfui 2014-06-09T00:25:52Z jim: oh no... he pfuid... 2014-06-09T00:26:39Z KrazyCod3r: Windows 8 2014-06-09T00:26:52Z KrazyCod3r: pfui ? o.o 2014-06-09T00:27:25Z jim: ok, I don't have that... but I can probably still install it 2014-06-09T00:27:39Z offby1: "pfui" is a distant cognate of "feh" 2014-06-09T00:27:51Z KrazyCod3r: Oh I see 2014-06-09T00:28:01Z jxv quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-09T00:28:17Z jim: ooh nooooo,,, now he'd coginating... 2014-06-09T00:30:29Z jim: let me take a different tack... when you look at your start menu (windows still have one of those?) can you find where the scheme was installed? 2014-06-09T00:31:05Z KrazyCod3r: "C:\Program Files\MIT-GNU Scheme\bin\mit-scheme.exe" --library "C:\Program Files\MIT-GNU Scheme\lib" --edit 2014-06-09T00:31:32Z jim: what happens if you run that? 2014-06-09T00:31:50Z KrazyCod3r: it opens 2014-06-09T00:32:04Z jim: ok, good... what do you see? 2014-06-09T00:32:33Z jeapostrophe joined #scheme 2014-06-09T00:32:43Z KrazyCod3r: pops 2 windows 2014-06-09T00:32:44Z jim: I'm pretty much flying blind here... BUT... you have the thing that opens it 2014-06-09T00:32:58Z jim: what's in them? 2014-06-09T00:33:00Z KrazyCod3r: one of them is called Edwin : scheme 2014-06-09T00:33:07Z KrazyCod3r: which is the one am supposed to write my code in 2014-06-09T00:33:09Z jim: ok, that's the editor 2014-06-09T00:33:13Z offby1 nods gravely 2014-06-09T00:33:18Z pjb` is now known as pjb 2014-06-09T00:33:43Z jim: howbout the other one? 2014-06-09T00:33:44Z offby1: I just want to tell you both: Good luck. We're all counting on you. 2014-06-09T00:33:44Z KrazyCod3r: other than just a read only text saying info about the gnu mit scheme'' 2014-06-09T00:33:47Z pjb is now known as Guest22876 2014-06-09T00:33:54Z Guest22876 is now known as pjb` 2014-06-09T00:34:01Z KrazyCod3r: offby1: haha 2014-06-09T00:34:03Z pjb` is now known as pjb 2014-06-09T00:34:12Z jim: offby1, what's the count so far? 2014-06-09T00:34:54Z KrazyCod3r: xD 2014-06-09T00:35:03Z offby1: I don't count; I iterate 2014-06-09T00:35:05Z jim: I would think the other window is where the read-eval-print loop is 2014-06-09T00:35:44Z KrazyCod3r: not really 2014-06-09T00:35:58Z jim: so, what's in the other window? 2014-06-09T00:37:00Z KrazyCod3r: wait 2014-06-09T00:37:05Z KrazyCod3r: i know what to do 2014-06-09T00:37:07Z KrazyCod3r: gimme 1 minute 2014-06-09T00:37:24Z jim: bimme three steps gimme three steps... 2014-06-09T00:37:38Z KrazyCod3r: bim me ? o,O 2014-06-09T00:37:42Z KrazyCod3r: o.O * 2014-06-09T00:38:01Z jim: allman brothers song 2014-06-09T00:38:04Z KrazyCod3r: Oh 2014-06-09T00:38:10Z KrazyCod3r: I have downloaded 17 songs today 2014-06-09T00:39:12Z jim: went to a party in vallejo, we played songs all night 2014-06-09T00:39:26Z KrazyCod3r: http://prntscr.com/3qzj1p 2014-06-09T00:39:28Z KrazyCod3r: Here you go 2014-06-09T00:39:36Z KrazyCod3r: these are the 2 windows 2014-06-09T00:40:09Z KrazyCod3r: Never went to a party, am too cool for that 2014-06-09T00:40:23Z KrazyCod3r: well we don't have parties here so that's why 2014-06-09T00:42:34Z jim: ok, let's do a little test... in the window that's NOT the edwin, type: 2014-06-09T00:42:41Z KrazyCod3r: http://prntscr.com/3qzjz6 2014-06-09T00:42:48Z KrazyCod3r: it says aborted ? 2014-06-09T00:42:53Z KrazyCod3r: in the windows that is NOT edwin 2014-06-09T00:43:19Z jim: (define life-universe-everything 42) 2014-06-09T00:43:33Z KrazyCod3r: XD 2014-06-09T00:43:34Z jim: hit enter 2014-06-09T00:43:37Z KrazyCod3r: but it won't let me type 2014-06-09T00:43:48Z jim: hmm. maybe something's wrong 2014-06-09T00:44:12Z Guest35489 joined #scheme 2014-06-09T00:44:45Z KrazyCod3r: i guess so 2014-06-09T00:45:11Z Husmor joined #scheme 2014-06-09T00:45:22Z Husmor quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-09T00:45:32Z jim: hmm. so right now, in that case, we both have the same question: how's this thing work 2014-06-09T00:46:17Z LeoNerd quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-06-09T00:46:34Z KrazyCod3r: xD 2014-06-09T00:46:45Z offby1: jim: Lynyrd Skynyrd, not the Allmans! Geez. 2014-06-09T00:46:56Z offby1: damned kids 2014-06-09T00:46:59Z KrazyCod3r: So many y's 2014-06-09T00:47:48Z jim: if this were something like DrScheme, then you'd put (define ... ...) in the edit window, and then the other window would let you try to use the defines 2014-06-09T00:48:24Z jim: so you could type life-universe-everything and hit enter, and it should say 42 2014-06-09T00:48:48Z KrazyCod3r: would DrScheme work with SICP ? 2014-06-09T00:49:11Z jim: yes, so should a bunch of others 2014-06-09T00:50:39Z LeoNerd joined #scheme 2014-06-09T00:50:41Z jim: and, so should gnu/mit scheme... not sure what's wrong... did you say 2 windows appear or 3? 2014-06-09T00:51:31Z KrazyCod3r: 2 windows 2014-06-09T00:51:32Z offby1: I have this vague sense that no scheme (other than MIT) works _quite_ right with SICP. 2014-06-09T00:52:27Z KrazyCod3r: I have a feeling that I got a corrupted version of MIT GNU SCHEME 2014-06-09T00:52:33Z KrazyCod3r: probably I should redownload and reinstall 2014-06-09T00:52:49Z jim: that sounds like a plan :) 2014-06-09T00:53:12Z offby1 hasn't seen a corrupted download in years 2014-06-09T00:53:41Z KrazyCod3r: Lol I get it all the time cause of my bad internet 2014-06-09T00:54:23Z jim offers his floppy backup of the internet 2014-06-09T00:54:37Z KrazyCod3r: haha xD 2014-06-09T00:55:44Z jim: seriously, I think coming here to ask what's up, you're on the right track... and let's see if you can get a fresh download 2014-06-09T00:56:34Z jim: is there a way to verify (like with a checksum or something) that the download succeeded? 2014-06-09T00:56:49Z KrazyCod3r: Not really sure 2014-06-09T00:56:57Z KrazyCod3r: I haven't done something similar in windows before 2014-06-09T00:57:00Z klltkr is now known as klltkr[ORL] 2014-06-09T00:57:22Z KrazyCod3r: Actually I am more comfortable in linux than am in windows 2014-06-09T00:57:46Z jim: same here... do you have a linux box handy? 2014-06-09T00:59:19Z KrazyCod3r: No, what is that 2014-06-09T00:59:34Z KrazyCod3r: btw how long have you been doing scheme 2014-06-09T01:00:07Z jim: well I read anatomy of lisp before scheme existed (well I think it was before) 2014-06-09T01:00:28Z KrazyCod3r: Wooh 2014-06-09T01:01:12Z jim: I compiled xlisp (a lisp interpreter) and tried to get the interpreters going 2014-06-09T01:01:31Z jim: the interpreters from the book that is 2014-06-09T01:01:52Z jim: they each had a coupla bugs, which I fixed 2014-06-09T01:01:59Z Guest35489 quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2014-06-09T01:02:21Z KrazyCod3r: Oh wow 2014-06-09T01:02:44Z KrazyCod3r: according to http://www.gnu.org/software/mit-scheme/documentation/mit-scheme-user/Basics-of-Starting-Scheme.html#Basics-of-Starting-Scheme 2014-06-09T01:02:44Z rudybot: http://tinyurl.com/lf4u6y 2014-06-09T01:03:02Z KrazyCod3r: That the second windows should be the one I write at as you have said 2014-06-09T01:04:55Z jim: so it is a little like drscheme 2014-06-09T01:05:43Z jim: (or more correctly, drscheme is a little like this, edwin and gnu/mit scheme came first) 2014-06-09T01:05:53Z KrazyCod3r: YEah 2014-06-09T01:05:55Z KrazyCod3r: yeah* 2014-06-09T01:06:06Z KrazyCod3r: Well, still after redownloading and installing am facing same problem 2014-06-09T01:07:14Z josso000 joined #scheme 2014-06-09T01:07:37Z jim: you said before you're more comfortable in linux... did I get that right? 2014-06-09T01:08:11Z KrazyCod3r: Yeah o.o 2014-06-09T01:08:12Z KrazyCod3r: what 2014-06-09T01:08:13Z KrazyCod3r: lol 2014-06-09T01:09:07Z jim: is this right too: at the moment you don't ahve a machine lying around that has linux installed? 2014-06-09T01:10:20Z KrazyCod3r: Nope I don't 2014-06-09T01:10:41Z jim: ok, good enuf, just wanted to make sure 2014-06-09T01:11:42Z KrazyCod3r: well yeh 2014-06-09T01:11:46Z KrazyCod3r: :/ 2014-06-09T01:13:46Z KrazyCod3r: http://www.gnu.org/software/mit-scheme/ 2014-06-09T01:13:48Z KrazyCod3r: Check this 2014-06-09T01:14:00Z KrazyCod3r: it says it can only work on i386 windows 2014-06-09T01:14:03Z KrazyCod3r: isn't that windows xp ? 2014-06-09T01:14:08Z KrazyCod3r: or less 2014-06-09T01:14:23Z KrazyCod3r: it also says it works on windows 7 by using watcom 2014-06-09T01:16:50Z safety joined #scheme 2014-06-09T01:17:43Z phax quit (Quit: phax) 2014-06-09T01:19:08Z KrazyCod3r: The current release is for x86 (Intel Architecture 32) machines only. We provide versions that run under the following operating systems: GNU/Linux, FreeBSD, IBM OS/2, and Microsoft Windows (95, 98, ME, NT, 2000, and XP). We no longer support DOS or Windows 3.x. 2014-06-09T01:19:12Z KrazyCod3r: Damn. 2014-06-09T01:19:16Z bjz joined #scheme 2014-06-09T01:19:37Z KrazyCod3r: They no longer suppord windows 3 2014-06-09T01:19:39Z KrazyCod3r: How can I live no 2014-06-09T01:19:41Z KrazyCod3r: now* 2014-06-09T01:20:13Z jim: oh no... well maybe it was offby1 and they mean windows 2 2014-06-09T01:20:48Z KrazyCod3r: XD 2014-06-09T01:21:07Z jim: but seriously... maybe you need a 64 bit version? 2014-06-09T01:21:26Z KrazyCod3r: Nah that's actually the only version they support 2014-06-09T01:21:30Z KrazyCod3r: they have 2014-06-09T01:21:35Z KrazyCod3r: i guess 2014-06-09T01:21:42Z KrazyCod3r: Maybe I should run linux in a vm 2014-06-09T01:21:51Z KrazyCod3r: :/ 2014-06-09T01:22:09Z jim: how long would that take to set up? 2014-06-09T01:22:28Z kazimir42 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-09T01:22:44Z KrazyCod3r: an hour i guess 2014-06-09T01:22:50Z kazimir42 joined #scheme 2014-06-09T01:23:01Z jim: maybe we keep that on the back burner for a sec 2014-06-09T01:23:39Z KrazyCod3r: Okay 2014-06-09T01:24:30Z KrazyCod3r: We no longer support OS/2, DOS, or Windows systems prior to XP. 2014-06-09T01:26:05Z jim: that statement implies hope 2014-06-09T01:26:35Z jim: let me see if we can find another scheme that would work... I'll look at drscheme first 2014-06-09T01:27:48Z jim: ohh, drscheme is now racket 2014-06-09T01:28:41Z KrazyCod3r: Alright 2014-06-09T01:28:58Z KrazyCod3r: Actually I just googled and it does look like I will need few plugins for some chapters 2014-06-09T01:29:34Z jim: yeah, like the picture language thing 2014-06-09T01:29:53Z KrazyCod3r: yep 2014-06-09T01:30:55Z jim: one tescher who did an sicp which was videoed provided something for one of those schemes 2014-06-09T01:31:19Z KrazyCod3r: Hmm what ? 2014-06-09T01:31:30Z jim: but not to worry. Are you at the beginning of sicp? 2014-06-09T01:32:23Z KrazyCod3r: Well I just studied the first chapter before 2014-06-09T01:32:48Z KrazyCod3r: But am restudying it now 2014-06-09T01:32:59Z jim: were you able to do any of the exercises? (I'm guessing no, since you didn't have a scheme?) 2014-06-09T01:33:06Z KrazyCod3r: no I didn't 2014-06-09T01:33:38Z KrazyCod3r: Actually my pc is on windows xp 2014-06-09T01:33:41Z jim: ok, so we gotta get you a scheme so you can :) 2014-06-09T01:34:00Z KrazyCod3r: I just noticed that I can just use my pc for scheme 2014-06-09T01:34:37Z jim: right, but we haven't got anything that works for you yet, thats still true? 2014-06-09T01:35:13Z KrazyCod3r: yah true 2014-06-09T01:35:38Z jim: ok, so I just found this: 2014-06-09T01:36:04Z jim: http://download.racket-lang.org/ 2014-06-09T01:36:46Z KrazyCod3r: Should I download that ? 2014-06-09T01:36:54Z jim: and according to the dropdown at the top, you can get racket for 32 or 64 bit, linux or windows 2014-06-09T01:37:23Z jim: want to give it a try? 2014-06-09T01:37:38Z KrazyCod3r: Sure 2014-06-09T01:38:08Z jim: so pick your poison and avoid the koolade! 2014-06-09T01:38:39Z KrazyCod3r: xD 2014-06-09T01:38:49Z robot-beethoven joined #scheme 2014-06-09T01:39:19Z phax joined #scheme 2014-06-09T01:41:48Z jim: now, it's true it won't be -exactly- the same... and, you can get started witn it 2014-06-09T01:42:28Z jim: are you watching the video lectures? 2014-06-09T01:44:06Z jim: where Abelson says something like "so this is listed as a computer science course, and as we'll find out, it's not really about science (at least not in the pure sense), and also it;s not very much about computers..." 2014-06-09T01:46:18Z KrazyCod3r: haha yes 2014-06-09T01:51:49Z acarrico quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2014-06-09T01:54:40Z jim: how's the download going? 2014-06-09T01:55:28Z effy quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2014-06-09T01:55:34Z KrazyCod3r: says 10 minutes left 2014-06-09T01:55:40Z KrazyCod3r: I have a really bad internet 2014-06-09T01:56:02Z offby1: I bet mine is worse :-| 2014-06-09T01:56:09Z jim: bad BAD internet... 2014-06-09T01:56:25Z offby1: last couple days, about 70% of the time when I go to youtube, I just see the spinner; the video never loads. 2014-06-09T01:56:36Z offby1: jim: baddest net in the whole damned town. 2014-06-09T01:56:45Z KrazyCod3r: mine loads at 240p 2014-06-09T01:56:49Z effy joined #scheme 2014-06-09T01:56:59Z KrazyCod3r: or less ? idk 2014-06-09T01:57:35Z jim: my internet crapped in my yard... had to tie it to the chain... 2014-06-09T01:57:39Z jim: AGAIN... 2014-06-09T01:59:09Z offby1: jim: at least you don't have the neighbor's internet coming into your house and crapping in your basement. 2014-06-09T01:59:16Z offby1: s/internet/cat/ and you've got my situation 2014-06-09T01:59:32Z offby1: was a nice cat, too, before he went all wacko. 2014-06-09T02:00:20Z jim: at least you didn't have the neighbor's internet chase a skunk around your house... 2014-06-09T02:00:38Z offby1: ww. 2014-06-09T02:00:42Z offby1: s/^/e/ 2014-06-09T02:01:07Z jim: eeeeyeah. 2014-06-09T02:02:30Z jim: so from that we found tomato juice does not work... 2014-06-09T02:02:48Z offby1: heh 2014-06-09T02:02:57Z offby1: an old Old Wives' tale. 2014-06-09T02:03:32Z jim: and we found stuff that does: take hydrogen peroxide and baking soda, and mix some dish soap in 2014-06-09T02:04:31Z offby1: plain old 1% H₂O₂ from the pharmacy? 2014-06-09T02:04:37Z offby1: OK, I admit: I was showing off there 2014-06-09T02:08:09Z jim: I would assume so yes 2014-06-09T02:10:25Z davexunit quit (Quit: Later) 2014-06-09T02:11:42Z Shadox joined #scheme 2014-06-09T02:12:19Z b4283 joined #scheme 2014-06-09T02:14:51Z tenq|out is now known as tenq 2014-06-09T02:16:11Z KrazyCod3r: :/ 2014-06-09T02:17:23Z jim: what happened? 2014-06-09T02:17:29Z offby1: :\ 2014-06-09T02:17:43Z KrazyCod3r: Nothing it's still downloading 2014-06-09T02:17:52Z KrazyCod3r: I just wished it goes easier than this 2014-06-09T02:17:59Z offby1 looks around to see if Bugnatz will throw a brick at KrazyCod3r 2014-06-09T02:18:14Z offby1 appoints hisself Offissa Bit 2014-06-09T02:18:37Z KrazyCod3r: Lool 2014-06-09T02:23:38Z KrazyCod3r: offby1 do you do scheme too ? 2014-06-09T02:25:34Z offby1: a bit 2014-06-09T02:25:47Z offby1: that's why I'm here 2014-06-09T02:25:50Z frkout joined #scheme 2014-06-09T02:25:56Z KrazyCod3r: Oh lol 2014-06-09T02:34:19Z jim: racket with the extensions and everything are probably 45 mb 2014-06-09T02:34:44Z KrazyCod3r: 65 mb with out any thing xD 2014-06-09T02:34:55Z KrazyCod3r: 1 min 9 seconds left 2014-06-09T02:40:23Z jim: so you must be installing by now? 2014-06-09T02:41:17Z KrazyCod3r: I am ^^ 2014-06-09T02:52:03Z frkout quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-09T02:52:36Z frkout joined #scheme 2014-06-09T02:53:26Z KrazyCod3r: done 2014-06-09T02:53:30Z KrazyCod3r: let's test this out 2014-06-09T02:55:36Z jim: you should see one window divided into upper half and lower half 2014-06-09T02:55:46Z offby1: https://www.google.com/search?q=ignatz&tbm=isch for those who don't know Ignatz 2014-06-09T02:56:10Z jim: ignatz was on that cartoon 2014-06-09T02:57:04Z frkout quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2014-06-09T02:57:33Z KrazyCod3r: jim: Yes, how do I pick Scheme ? 2014-06-09T02:58:42Z jim: there is a menu bar at the top 2014-06-09T02:58:51Z jim: you should see a menu language 2014-06-09T02:58:56Z jim: then choose language 2014-06-09T02:59:05Z jim: you can try rsr5 2014-06-09T03:00:42Z jim: then stuff will happen visually in the window 2014-06-09T03:01:25Z KrazyCod3r: awesome it works 2014-06-09T03:02:12Z jim: ok, cool. so in the bottom window, try this: (define life-universe-everything 42) 2014-06-09T03:02:25Z jim: then hit enter 2014-06-09T03:02:47Z jim: if that worked, you defined a variable called life-universe-everything 2014-06-09T03:03:13Z jim: so feed that variable name to the same place you typed the define in 2014-06-09T03:03:16Z jim: hit enter 2014-06-09T03:03:21Z jim: what does it say? 2014-06-09T03:04:17Z frkout joined #scheme 2014-06-09T03:05:00Z KrazyCod3r: 42 2014-06-09T03:05:50Z jim: great. notice how you defined the variable to have that value, then you asked the interpreter to lookup the variable 2014-06-09T03:06:00Z KrazyCod3r: Yeah 2014-06-09T03:06:14Z KrazyCod3r: so probably am gonna face some problems some where 2014-06-09T03:06:16Z jim: so it seems like you're all set at least for the first chapter 2014-06-09T03:06:21Z KrazyCod3r: yeah 2014-06-09T03:06:37Z jim: of course... but that problem will not be lack of an interpreter :) 2014-06-09T03:06:39Z KrazyCod3r: I will come here to seek help once I meet problems 2014-06-09T03:06:55Z KrazyCod3r: haha yeah 2014-06-09T03:07:00Z KrazyCod3r: Thanks a lot jim 2014-06-09T03:07:21Z jim: oh, there is one thing, an exercise in SICP you should wrestle with 2014-06-09T03:07:36Z jim: let me find it 2014-06-09T03:08:52Z jim: here's the book online in case you need it http://mitpress.mit.edu/sicp/full-text/book/book.html 2014-06-09T03:09:58Z KrazyCod3r: Alright 2014-06-09T03:10:03Z KrazyCod3r: So where is the exercise 2014-06-09T03:11:41Z jim: found it. 2014-06-09T03:12:03Z jim: 1.6, the story of Alyssa P. Hacker 2014-06-09T03:12:14Z KrazyCod3r: Btw, How to design programs also uses DrScheme 2014-06-09T03:13:06Z KrazyCod3r: Oh 2014-06-09T03:13:13Z KrazyCod3r: How come I have to wrestle with it 2014-06-09T03:13:31Z jim: you don't have to do anything... 2014-06-09T03:13:52Z jim: I'm just suggesting that you take a look 2014-06-09T03:15:17Z KrazyCod3r: Aha 2014-06-09T03:16:07Z KrazyCod3r: What is wrong ? 2014-06-09T03:16:20Z KrazyCod3r: I remember seeing this one in the lecture 2014-06-09T03:18:13Z Shadox quit (Quit: Leaving) 2014-06-09T03:18:43Z bjz quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2014-06-09T03:18:47Z jim: do you understand the math stuff? 2014-06-09T03:20:10Z KrazyCod3r: (define (new-if predicate then-clause else-clause) (cond (predicate then-clause) (else else-clause))) 2014-06-09T03:20:16Z KrazyCod3r: Are you talking about this ? 2014-06-09T03:20:21Z jim: yes 2014-06-09T03:21:54Z KrazyCod3r: But there isn't math 2014-06-09T03:21:55Z jim: right, that's Eva Lu Ator's definition of new-if 2014-06-09T03:22:08Z KrazyCod3r: (define (sqrt-iter guess x) (new-if (good-enough? guess x) guess (sqrt-iter (improve guess x) x))) 2014-06-09T03:22:24Z KrazyCod3r: I understand both of the parts no problem 2014-06-09T03:23:52Z jim: ok... what's the difference when new-if is used instead of if? 2014-06-09T03:27:29Z KrazyCod3r: I didn't see the other if 2014-06-09T03:27:35Z KrazyCod3r: but I don't think there is will be any difference 2014-06-09T03:27:41Z KrazyCod3r: cause this one looks like it will work 2014-06-09T03:32:17Z jim: wo there is the original if, it's already in scheme, then there's this new-if definition which, according to the story of Alyssa, Eva wrote. 2014-06-09T03:32:50Z KrazyCod3r: well it looks good to me o.o 2014-06-09T03:33:11Z jim: yes :) the difference is quite subtle 2014-06-09T03:33:14Z _will__ is now known as _will_ 2014-06-09T03:33:29Z jim: notice I'm trying not to give it away... 2014-06-09T03:34:04Z KrazyCod3r: I don't remember the real if statement 2014-06-09T03:35:10Z KrazyCod3r: well 2014-06-09T03:35:34Z jim: you use it like this: (if aTrueOrFalse doThisIfTrue doThatIfFalse) 2014-06-09T03:36:27Z jim: it is going to take you studying the substitution model, and trying things out 2014-06-09T03:37:39Z KrazyCod3r: Well 2014-06-09T03:37:42Z jim: once you know the substitution model pretty well, you can try to evaluate something using pencil and paper 2014-06-09T03:39:21Z KrazyCod3r: What r u talking about :/ 2014-06-09T03:39:43Z KrazyCod3r: I am 100% sure this new-if will yield out same results 2014-06-09T03:40:02Z bjz joined #scheme 2014-06-09T03:40:08Z KrazyCod3r: does the example just want me to explain how the function will work with the new-if function ? 2014-06-09T03:40:20Z KrazyCod3r: is that what you mean by substitution ? 2014-06-09T03:40:43Z jim: that's two different questions... 2014-06-09T03:41:21Z jim: first, yes, one thing we want to know from the exercise is what will happen if you use new-if instead of if 2014-06-09T03:41:29Z KrazyCod3r: Ok 2014-06-09T03:41:31Z KrazyCod3r: nothing will happen 2014-06-09T03:41:35Z KrazyCod3r: nothing new 2014-06-09T03:41:53Z jim: second, no, that's not what is meant by substitution. 2014-06-09T03:43:17Z KrazyCod3r: substitution as with in, I see the values given to my new-if in the function and go back to the defintion of new-if to check how they work ? 2014-06-09T03:44:03Z jim: the substitution model is a way of describing how expressions in a language are interpreted and how values are produced 2014-06-09T03:44:50Z KrazyCod3r: Ah I see 2014-06-09T03:44:55Z jim: you can look at the substitution model in getting the value of a variable 2014-06-09T03:45:22Z jim: the interpreter sees: life-universe-everything 2014-06-09T03:46:11Z jim: so the interpreter goes and looks up life-universe-everything to see if there is something called a "binding" for that variable 2014-06-09T03:47:09Z jim: if it finds the binding, it looks in the binding to find the value, and it -substitutes- the value in place of the mention of the variable 2014-06-09T03:47:31Z jim: for more on the substitution model... 2014-06-09T03:48:50Z KrazyCod3r: Jim it's 8 am here 2014-06-09T03:48:57Z KrazyCod3r: I can't think at all now :/ 2014-06-09T03:49:00Z KrazyCod3r: have to go bed 2014-06-09T03:49:25Z jim: read section 1.1.5 The Substitution Model for Procedura Application 2014-06-09T03:49:43Z jim: ok, cool... let me finish this 2014-06-09T03:50:09Z jim: and I think reading from the beginning of the chapter is going to be important. 2014-06-09T03:50:28Z jim: Finally. 2014-06-09T03:51:09Z KrazyCod3r: okay 2014-06-09T03:52:04Z KrazyCod3r: I willl do that tomorrow when I wake up 2014-06-09T03:52:10Z KrazyCod3r: Good night Jim, and again thanks for all help 2014-06-09T03:52:12Z jim: There is a lot of very heavy stuff, even here at the beginning... I think you'll get this, and when you figure out more about Eva and Alyssa, you're going to come to some new understandings, and you're gonna be surprised by em :) 2014-06-09T03:53:00Z jim: so, cool, get some sleep and ponder some more tomorrow 2014-06-09T03:53:01Z KrazyCod3r: Actually I just googled and found out that the solution won't work 2014-06-09T03:53:08Z KrazyCod3r: -_- 2014-06-09T03:53:15Z KrazyCod3r: yeah anyway 2014-06-09T03:53:21Z KrazyCod3r: good night 2014-06-09T03:55:06Z KrazyCod3r quit (Quit: Page closed) 2014-06-09T04:02:36Z BitPuffin quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2014-06-09T04:03:31Z tcsc quit (Quit: computer sleeping) 2014-06-09T04:18:29Z jeapostrophe quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2014-06-09T04:18:57Z oleo is now known as Guest60215 2014-06-09T04:20:25Z oleo__ joined #scheme 2014-06-09T04:22:17Z Guest60215 quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-06-09T04:24:31Z klltkr joined #scheme 2014-06-09T04:42:17Z phax left #scheme 2014-06-09T04:50:19Z BitPuffin joined #scheme 2014-06-09T04:58:27Z vinleod joined #scheme 2014-06-09T05:15:08Z racycle_ quit (Quit: ZZZzzz…) 2014-06-09T05:22:36Z peted_ joined #scheme 2014-06-09T05:24:01Z peted_ quit (Client Quit) 2014-06-09T05:24:25Z peted_ joined #scheme 2014-06-09T05:25:17Z bjz quit (Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com) 2014-06-09T05:25:44Z peted quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2014-06-09T05:28:28Z daviid quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2014-06-09T05:29:39Z kazimir42 quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-06-09T05:30:23Z frkout quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-09T05:30:59Z frkout joined #scheme 2014-06-09T05:34:43Z MichaelRaskin joined #scheme 2014-06-09T05:37:57Z bjz joined #scheme 2014-06-09T05:44:11Z _asc joined #scheme 2014-06-09T06:12:23Z Okasu joined #scheme 2014-06-09T06:12:55Z spaceotter quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-09T06:13:57Z george2 quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-06-09T06:16:35Z jxv joined #scheme 2014-06-09T06:30:17Z kazimir42 joined #scheme 2014-06-09T06:34:06Z spaceotter joined #scheme 2014-06-09T06:36:56Z klltkr quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. 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it appears reduntant to me. 2014-06-09T10:13:57Z alexei_ quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-06-09T10:22:04Z hkBst joined #scheme 2014-06-09T10:24:23Z alexei_ joined #scheme 2014-06-09T10:31:34Z leppie quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-06-09T10:32:19Z leppie joined #scheme 2014-06-09T10:34:49Z pnkfelix joined #scheme 2014-06-09T10:36:52Z alexei_ quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-06-09T10:40:45Z ANGRYSTEVE joined #scheme 2014-06-09T10:53:45Z hiroakip quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2014-06-09T11:03:21Z gravicappa joined #scheme 2014-06-09T11:08:14Z b4283 quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2014-06-09T11:08:26Z pjdelport: net4all: Do you mean quote versus quasiquote, or the ASCII codepoint ' versus ` ? 2014-06-09T11:08:49Z pjdelport: There are plenty of reasons for the former; the latter is just hysterical raisins 2014-06-09T11:12:43Z hkBst quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-09T11:13:44Z net4all: pjdelport: the former 2014-06-09T11:16:30Z pjdelport: net4all: Well, the main reason is simplicity: quote is a much more fundamental primitive than quasiquote. 2014-06-09T11:17:08Z pjdelport: You need quote if you want to quote stuff that actually contains quasiquotes and unquotes that you don't want to interpret. 2014-06-09T11:18:39Z pjdelport: On a different level, quasiquote is more library-like: you should be able to consider it as an optional feature. 2014-06-09T11:19:07Z pjdelport: Whereas quote is too fundamental to be moved out like that. 2014-06-09T11:22:43Z DGASAU quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2014-06-09T11:23:51Z DGASAU joined #scheme 2014-06-09T11:24:04Z frkout_ joined #scheme 2014-06-09T11:24:12Z pjb: Well, 'x can also be written, and actually means (quote x). 2014-06-09T11:24:42Z pjb: Both quote and quasiquote are syntactic sugar leaing to semicolon cancer, or in this case, coma cancer. 2014-06-09T11:24:50Z net4all: pjdelport: ah, becouse nesting quasiquotes might break 2014-06-09T11:25:01Z net4all: pjdelport: yes, this i know 2014-06-09T11:25:24Z net4all: pjb: * 2014-06-09T11:25:41Z pjdelport: (incr (incr pjd)) 2014-06-09T11:26:03Z pjb: Beside the "more primitive", I'd like to mention just history. quote was first, then ' then `. 2014-06-09T11:26:23Z net4all: mm 2014-06-09T11:26:45Z frkout quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2014-06-09T11:26:52Z cbsw quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2014-06-09T11:27:34Z net4all: i suspected it was because of the history. but i didn't think about nesting of quasiquotes. 2014-06-09T11:27:46Z aoh quit (Changing host) 2014-06-09T11:27:46Z aoh joined #scheme 2014-06-09T11:27:51Z balkamos quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2014-06-09T11:29:47Z balkamos joined #scheme 2014-06-09T11:44:21Z BitPuffin quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2014-06-09T11:46:51Z mario-goulart joined #scheme 2014-06-09T11:48:57Z jeapostrophe joined #scheme 2014-06-09T11:52:31Z acarrico joined #scheme 2014-06-09T12:01:52Z spaceotter quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2014-06-09T12:12:42Z karswell` joined #scheme 2014-06-09T12:12:46Z karswell quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2014-06-09T12:12:59Z Sgeo quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-06-09T12:13:13Z b4283 joined #scheme 2014-06-09T12:14:36Z klltkr joined #scheme 2014-06-09T12:18:30Z spaceotter joined #scheme 2014-06-09T12:33:13Z davexunit joined #scheme 2014-06-09T12:35:36Z yosafbridge quit (Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)) 2014-06-09T12:37:30Z frkout_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-09T12:37:48Z spaceotter quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2014-06-09T12:38:05Z frkout joined #scheme 2014-06-09T12:39:27Z spaceotter joined #scheme 2014-06-09T12:40:41Z ec quit (Disconnected by services) 2014-06-09T12:40:47Z yosafbridge joined #scheme 2014-06-09T12:42:49Z MichaelRaskin quit (Quit: MichaelRaskin) 2014-06-09T12:46:01Z JokerDoom joined #scheme 2014-06-09T12:47:07Z pnkfelix quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-09T12:47:29Z general_cryptic joined #scheme 2014-06-09T12:47:41Z pnkfelix joined #scheme 2014-06-09T12:48:31Z wingo quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2014-06-09T12:50:41Z langmart` joined #scheme 2014-06-09T12:52:15Z sroy joined #scheme 2014-06-09T12:52:45Z KrazyCod3r joined #scheme 2014-06-09T12:53:04Z KrazyCod3r: Hey guys 2014-06-09T12:53:12Z KrazyCod3r: rudybot: Morning 2014-06-09T12:53:13Z rudybot: KrazyCod3r: I've been reading Xah's site all damn day thanks to the one link this morning :( 2014-06-09T12:53:54Z annodomini joined #scheme 2014-06-09T12:58:47Z ASau` joined #scheme 2014-06-09T13:01:58Z ASau quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-09T13:02:42Z ASau` is now known as ASau 2014-06-09T13:20:32Z edw: KrazyCod3r: I missed that link; could you (re-)share it? 2014-06-09T13:21:03Z KrazyCod3r: edw: Lol I din't send any links 2014-06-09T13:21:09Z KrazyCod3r: didn't* 2014-06-09T13:21:19Z KrazyCod3r: rudybot: what link ? 2014-06-09T13:21:20Z rudybot: KrazyCod3r: you could just ship with a set of library stubs and unconditially (dynamically) link to it? 2014-06-09T13:21:29Z KrazyCod3r: so smart. 2014-06-09T13:23:03Z pjdelport: oh, man, Xah 2014-06-09T13:23:19Z edw: KrazyCod3r: The link to Xah's site that you clicked, that consumed your morning. 2014-06-09T13:23:53Z KrazyCod3r: It's not me, it's rudybot 2014-06-09T13:24:47Z edw: Ah. I thought rudybot was echoing something you said. So confusing. Feel like I'm reading the "where do we eat dinner?" chapter of American Psycho. 2014-06-09T13:24:49Z hiroakip joined #scheme 2014-06-09T13:25:50Z KrazyCod3r: Haha xD 2014-06-09T13:29:39Z general_cryptic quit (Quit: Leaving) 2014-06-09T13:31:06Z rudybot: edw: do not allow me to confuse you. 2014-06-09T13:31:46Z langmart` is now known as langmartin 2014-06-09T13:37:36Z KrazyCod3r: Lol 2014-06-09T13:38:02Z general_cryptic joined #scheme 2014-06-09T13:39:40Z annodomini quit (Quit: annodomini) 2014-06-09T13:43:07Z phax joined #scheme 2014-06-09T13:49:41Z f-a joined #scheme 2014-06-09T13:50:33Z Riastradh joined #scheme 2014-06-09T14:03:40Z spaceotter quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2014-06-09T14:19:27Z general_cryptic quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-09T14:29:56Z Riastrad1 joined #scheme 2014-06-09T14:32:03Z Riastradh quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-06-09T14:36:02Z Khisanth quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-06-09T14:36:50Z gravicappa quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-09T14:45:15Z Riastrad1 quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-06-09T14:45:51Z b4283 quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2014-06-09T14:46:00Z Riastradh joined #scheme 2014-06-09T14:47:10Z f-a quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-09T14:48:30Z pnkfelix quit (Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 24.3.1) 2014-06-09T14:51:56Z jusss joined #scheme 2014-06-09T14:52:49Z Khisanth joined #scheme 2014-06-09T15:01:59Z bjz quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2014-06-09T15:05:47Z theseb joined #scheme 2014-06-09T15:08:16Z cataska quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2014-06-09T15:09:28Z hiroakip quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2014-06-09T15:10:16Z b4283 joined #scheme 2014-06-09T15:11:03Z Riastradh quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-06-09T15:13:16Z MichaelRaskin joined #scheme 2014-06-09T15:15:07Z cataska joined #scheme 2014-06-09T15:18:18Z annodomini joined #scheme 2014-06-09T15:18:18Z annodomini quit (Changing host) 2014-06-09T15:18:18Z annodomini joined #scheme 2014-06-09T15:19:56Z garietyxxx joined #scheme 2014-06-09T15:20:21Z garietyxxx: Hi, #scheme, does anyone have a simple (do) example? I'm struggling with syntax 2014-06-09T15:24:53Z vraid: (do () ((= 5 n)) (set! n (+ n 1))) 2014-06-09T15:25:33Z KrazyCod3r: explain it vraid 2014-06-09T15:25:57Z vraid: (do ((n 0 (+ n 1))) ((= 5 n)) (display n)) 2014-06-09T15:26:02Z Okasu quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-09T15:26:55Z cataska quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2014-06-09T15:27:41Z pjdelport: garietyxxx: There are two parts to it. First, you give it a list of bindings, each with an initial value and "step" expression. You can use this for almost anything, like counting an integer, or walking through a list, etc. 2014-06-09T15:27:43Z DrDuck joined #scheme 2014-06-09T15:27:55Z DrDuck: does cond have to end with an else construct? 2014-06-09T15:28:42Z pjdelport: garietyxxx: The loop will keep updating each of those bindings with the step expression, until the loop exits. 2014-06-09T15:29:27Z antoszka: DrDuck: no 2014-06-09T15:29:46Z DrDuck: O_O 2014-06-09T15:30:12Z pjdelport: garietyxxx: The second part of it is the test expression, which tells the do loop when to stop. If it's true, the loop exits (and evaluates any expressions you give after the test, as the final result). 2014-06-09T15:30:48Z pjdelport: garietyxxx: As long as the test is false, the do loop will keep stepping and running the body of the loop (where the body is the last part). 2014-06-09T15:30:52Z pjdelport: garietyxxx: Does that help? 2014-06-09T15:31:03Z antoszka: DrDuck: But you're risking an unspecified return value, when no clause will match. 2014-06-09T15:32:13Z pjdelport: DrDuck: You could also end with #t instead of else. That's the tradition in Common Lisp. :P 2014-06-09T15:32:57Z antoszka: yep 2014-06-09T15:33:20Z kazimir42 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-09T15:33:40Z DrDuck: antoszka: I asked because I'm in a section of SICP that's talking about representing sets as binary trees. Up until this point we've used the else construct to end a condition. Here is the code they've given for checking if something is an element of a balanced binary tree set: https://www.refheap.com/86399 2014-06-09T15:34:28Z DrDuck: Just odd to me. What's the difference in ending with else and just making it a condition? 2014-06-09T15:34:54Z DrDuck: s/condition/final predicate* 2014-06-09T15:35:04Z pjdelport: DrDuck: Assuming the comparisons are total, that's not unreasonable; all an else clause would be able to do really is raise a "This shouldn't happen!" error. 2014-06-09T15:35:17Z antoszka: Exactly. 2014-06-09T15:35:40Z DrDuck: D: 2014-06-09T15:35:44Z DrDuck: Alright. 2014-06-09T15:36:32Z pjdelport: There isn't *really* any difference between using the special else syntax and using a literal true value. 2014-06-09T15:37:08Z pjdelport: The CL style is more traditional; the Scheme style is a bit more explicit (and arguably more readable). 2014-06-09T15:37:15Z jusss: newLISP is good ? 2014-06-09T15:37:27Z pjdelport: jusss: No, probably not. 2014-06-09T15:37:59Z pjdelport: (But that may just be me being a curmudgeon.) 2014-06-09T15:38:23Z jusss: pjdelport: what do you think of dynamnic scope? is it good ? 2014-06-09T15:38:52Z garietyxxx: pjdelport: I don't get the first segment, is (n) an existing variable? Or is that just a name for use within the loop? 2014-06-09T15:39:09Z pjdelport: jusss: No. :) It's historically easy to implement, but it's confusing and human-unfriendly. There's a reason that no modern language uses it anymore. 2014-06-09T15:39:26Z jusss quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-06-09T15:39:41Z jusss joined #scheme 2014-06-09T15:39:57Z pjdelport: garietyxxx: It's not an existing variable; the do loop introduces it. 2014-06-09T15:40:18Z garietyxxx: pjdelport: ah I see, and its starting value is the second operand 2014-06-09T15:40:30Z garietyxxx: so (do ((n 0)) will start n at 0 in the loop 2014-06-09T15:40:34Z pjdelport: garietyxxx: Right, exactly. 2014-06-09T15:40:38Z arrubin joined #scheme 2014-06-09T15:40:48Z pjdelport: garietyxxx: And then you can use the value of n in the body of the loop. 2014-06-09T15:41:11Z garietyxxx: so: (do ((n 0) (+ n 1)) (< 10 n) (lambda (x) (display "foo"))) would display foo 10 times? 2014-06-09T15:41:35Z pjdelport: jusss: Just in case you missed my last message before you got disconnected, it was: jusss: No. :) It's historically easy to implement, but it's confusing and human-unfriendly. There's a reason that no modern language uses it anymore. 2014-06-09T15:41:49Z pjdelport: (whoops, that was supposed to be a /msg) 2014-06-09T15:41:56Z jeapostrophe quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2014-06-09T15:42:26Z garietyxxx: lel 2014-06-09T15:42:47Z pjdelport: garietyxxx: Almost; that would have to be: (do ((n 0 (+ n 1))) ((< 10 n)) (display "foo")) 2014-06-09T15:43:16Z Guest41835 is now known as Kruppe 2014-06-09T15:45:20Z pjdelport: garietyxxx: So the first part of do is a list of multiple variable declarations, each with three parts, like ( ) 2014-06-09T15:45:32Z pjdelport: In your case, (n 0 (+ n 1)) 2014-06-09T15:45:43Z pjdelport: Not separated. 2014-06-09T15:46:36Z pjdelport: And then there's another () around it, because you can have a whole list of them, like: ((x foo bar) (y baz quux) ...) 2014-06-09T15:46:40Z general_cryptic joined #scheme 2014-06-09T15:46:47Z hiroakip joined #scheme 2014-06-09T15:47:07Z pjdelport: In that case, you can think of the x and y declarations as being looped over in parallel. 2014-06-09T15:47:45Z pjdelport: garietyxxx: The next part also needs two parens, because the syntax is actually ( ...) 2014-06-09T15:48:29Z daviid joined #scheme 2014-06-09T15:48:41Z pjdelport: So instead of just ((< 10 n)) , you could have said, for example: ((< 10 n) (display "Done!") n) 2014-06-09T15:49:21Z pjdelport: That would print "Done!" when the loop exits, and make the do loop as a whole return the final value of n (which would be 10 in this case). 2014-06-09T15:50:06Z pjdelport: In other words, everything after the test expression (if there is anything) is evaluated when the loop exits, and the final value is the return result. 2014-06-09T15:50:48Z pjdelport: garietyxxx: Finally, the body of the loop can just be a direct expression like (display "foo"); you don't need to wrap it in a lambda or anything. 2014-06-09T15:50:53Z general_cryptic quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-09T15:51:16Z pjdelport: (If you wrap it in a lambda, you're just constructing it, not calling it.) 2014-06-09T15:52:08Z general_cryptic joined #scheme 2014-06-09T15:58:41Z general_cryptic quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-09T15:58:49Z vraid quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2014-06-09T15:58:50Z racycle joined #scheme 2014-06-09T15:59:09Z general_cryptic joined #scheme 2014-06-09T15:59:23Z general_cryptic_ joined #scheme 2014-06-09T16:03:31Z garietyxxx: What about modulo in scheme R5RS? 2014-06-09T16:04:55Z taylanub quit (Disconnected by services) 2014-06-09T16:05:18Z taylanub joined #scheme 2014-06-09T16:06:30Z KrazyCod3r left #scheme 2014-06-09T16:07:57Z klltkr quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-06-09T16:08:26Z gravicappa joined #scheme 2014-06-09T16:11:57Z theseb quit (Quit: Leaving) 2014-06-09T16:12:16Z pnkfelix joined #scheme 2014-06-09T16:16:23Z theseb joined #scheme 2014-06-09T16:22:07Z jxv joined #scheme 2014-06-09T16:31:01Z langmartin quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-09T16:36:01Z daviid quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2014-06-09T16:36:46Z vraid joined #scheme 2014-06-09T16:41:15Z pnkfelix quit (Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 24.3.1) 2014-06-09T16:43:06Z oleo__ quit (Quit: Verlassend) 2014-06-09T16:45:25Z pnkfelix joined #scheme 2014-06-09T16:49:09Z jusss quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-06-09T16:50:07Z pjdelport: garietyxxx: What about it? 2014-06-09T16:51:15Z oleo joined #scheme 2014-06-09T16:58:38Z alexei_ joined #scheme 2014-06-09T16:59:59Z garietyxxx: pjdelport: nvm, how about getting the size of a list? 2014-06-09T17:00:25Z garietyxxx: is length the same as size? 2014-06-09T17:01:14Z theseb quit (Quit: Leaving) 2014-06-09T17:03:09Z pnkfelix quit (Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 24.3.91.1) 2014-06-09T17:03:25Z Riastradh joined #scheme 2014-06-09T17:03:36Z hiroakip quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2014-06-09T17:04:57Z general_cryptic quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-09T17:04:57Z general_cryptic_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-09T17:08:33Z oleo is now known as Guest94388 2014-06-09T17:10:03Z oleo__ joined #scheme 2014-06-09T17:11:19Z pjdelport: garietyxxx: The length procedure will give you the length / size of a list, yeah. 2014-06-09T17:11:27Z Guest94388 quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-06-09T17:11:32Z pjdelport: > (length '(a b c)) 2014-06-09T17:12:03Z pjdelport: rudybot: eval (length '(a b c)) 2014-06-09T17:12:04Z rudybot: pjdelport: your sandbox is ready 2014-06-09T17:12:04Z rudybot: pjdelport: ; Value: 3 2014-06-09T17:12:09Z alexei_ quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2014-06-09T17:14:34Z DrDuck: How do you guys usually go about testing data on a recursive procedure and how it breaks down on pen and paper? 2014-06-09T17:16:18Z DrDuck: Is there an ideal way? I'd like to have a better way to model the behavior of a recursive process, on paper, than I do now. 2014-06-09T17:20:55Z pnkfelix joined #scheme 2014-06-09T17:28:46Z vraaid joined #scheme 2014-06-09T17:28:47Z vraid quit (Disconnected by services) 2014-06-09T17:28:49Z vraaid is now known as vraid 2014-06-09T17:28:53Z civodul joined #scheme 2014-06-09T17:30:44Z alexei_ joined #scheme 2014-06-09T17:38:13Z jim: DrDuck, n! = n * (n - 1)! 2014-06-09T17:38:28Z jim: notice how ! is defined in terms of itself 2014-06-09T17:39:23Z DrDuck: jim: I meant in terms of modeling something like this on paper: http://mitpress.mit.edu/sicp/full-text/book/book-Z-H-16.html#%_thm_2.63 2014-06-09T17:39:58Z jxv quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-09T17:40:54Z DrDuck: I can model it on paper, but it's just messy the way I do it. I wanted to see if there were any common practices anyone here used for modeling the behavior of a tree recursive process like those. 2014-06-09T17:43:20Z jim: well every time you add to the tree, what do you do? 2014-06-09T17:46:40Z jlongster joined #scheme 2014-06-09T17:46:44Z jim: point is, you can model the things that are done which move the tree from one state to another 2014-06-09T17:46:59Z jim: you can do before-and-after pictures 2014-06-09T17:48:02Z spaceotter joined #scheme 2014-06-09T17:51:19Z FracV quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-09T17:51:41Z FracV joined #scheme 2014-06-09T17:58:52Z spaceotter quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2014-06-09T18:02:43Z oleo__ is now known as oleo 2014-06-09T18:03:51Z civodul quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-06-09T18:05:40Z langmartin joined #scheme 2014-06-09T18:12:25Z pnpuff joined #scheme 2014-06-09T18:12:40Z spaceotter joined #scheme 2014-06-09T18:12:50Z pnpuff left #scheme 2014-06-09T18:15:51Z daviid joined #scheme 2014-06-09T18:16:52Z spaceotter quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-06-09T18:18:02Z spaceotter joined #scheme 2014-06-09T18:20:21Z alexei_ quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2014-06-09T18:27:32Z hkBst joined #scheme 2014-06-09T18:38:24Z garietyxxx: Okay, #scheme, rate my lisp skills? https://gist.github.com/JacksonGariety/05e19196b49b7dfb3163 2014-06-09T18:38:49Z jxv joined #scheme 2014-06-09T18:38:52Z jxv quit (Client Quit) 2014-06-09T18:39:09Z jxv joined #scheme 2014-06-09T18:49:19Z civodul joined #scheme 2014-06-09T18:51:43Z jeapostrophe joined #scheme 2014-06-09T18:51:43Z jeapostrophe quit (Changing host) 2014-06-09T18:51:43Z jeapostrophe joined #scheme 2014-06-09T19:03:32Z garietyxxx quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-06-09T19:05:08Z wingo joined #scheme 2014-06-09T19:09:10Z alexei_ joined #scheme 2014-06-09T19:23:17Z garietyxxx joined #scheme 2014-06-09T19:25:52Z DrDuck quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2014-06-09T19:34:45Z ehaliewicz joined #scheme 2014-06-09T19:40:01Z jim: garietyxxx, 20 quatloos per strip of bacon 2014-06-09T19:48:55Z turbofail: looks pretty good/idiomatic to me 2014-06-09T19:50:12Z balkamos quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2014-06-09T19:57:55Z balkamos joined #scheme 2014-06-09T19:59:30Z oleo quit (Quit: Verlassend) 2014-06-09T20:00:40Z alexei_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2014-06-09T20:02:50Z alexei_ joined #scheme 2014-06-09T20:03:01Z balkamos quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2014-06-09T20:03:10Z hiroakip joined #scheme 2014-06-09T20:03:45Z balkamos joined #scheme 2014-06-09T20:05:09Z pjdelport: garietyxxx: Minor feedback: For your digits function, it's probably better to use quotient for integer division, rather than / 2014-06-09T20:06:10Z pjdelport: (If you want to be clever, you could also use the ceiling of the base-10 logarithm) 2014-06-09T20:09:44Z eMBee quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2014-06-09T20:10:39Z eMBee joined #scheme 2014-06-09T20:19:24Z phax quit (Quit: phax) 2014-06-09T20:24:10Z oleo joined #scheme 2014-06-09T20:27:38Z garietyxxx: pjdelport: why use (quotient) over (/)? 2014-06-09T20:27:50Z garietyxxx: pjdelport: ceiling of base-10 sounds fun 2014-06-09T20:29:33Z Riastradh: For n not divisible by 10, the value of (/ n 10) takes more space to represent than n, whereas the value of (quotient n 10) takes no more than the amount of space n takes. 2014-06-09T20:30:33Z garietyxxx: Riastradh: good to know 2014-06-09T20:31:08Z pjdelport: garietyxxx: (quotient) lets you be a bit more exact, and may even avoid rounding errors in some cases. 2014-06-09T20:33:35Z bjz joined #scheme 2014-06-09T20:35:03Z Riastradh: On exact inputs, / yields exact outputs and does not round. 2014-06-09T20:35:27Z _JokerDoom joined #scheme 2014-06-09T20:38:05Z sroy quit (Quit: Quitte) 2014-06-09T20:38:16Z bjz quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2014-06-09T20:38:16Z JokerDoom quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2014-06-09T20:41:44Z jim: garietyxxx, here's one very useful metric on at least style: can you read and understand your code? 2014-06-09T20:44:10Z jim: if you write it with good style (looks like you did that) and add comments explaining the parts that are fuzzy now, chances are really good that in 6 minutes ^W months, you'll be able to pick it up and again understand it 2014-06-09T20:45:57Z garietyxxx quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2014-06-09T20:49:13Z garietyxxx joined #scheme 2014-06-09T20:51:38Z aeth is now known as aeth- 2014-06-09T20:51:56Z aeth- is now known as aeth 2014-06-09T20:53:49Z robot-beethoven joined #scheme 2014-06-09T20:56:18Z Riastradh quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-09T20:58:19Z jim: I'll repeat that in case you didn't get it: 2014-06-09T20:58:23Z jim: garietyxxx, here's one very useful metric on at least style: can you read and understand your code? 2014-06-09T20:58:29Z jim: if you write it with good style (looks like you did that) and add comments explaining the parts that are fuzzy now, chances are really good that in 6 minutes ^W months, you'll be able to pick it up and again understand it 2014-06-09T20:58:54Z Riastradh joined #scheme 2014-06-09T20:59:22Z jeapostrophe quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-06-09T21:06:53Z civodul quit (Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)) 2014-06-09T21:19:32Z tcsc joined #scheme 2014-06-09T21:21:43Z jaimef quit (Excess Flood) 2014-06-09T21:28:23Z vraaid joined #scheme 2014-06-09T21:28:29Z vraid quit (Disconnected by services) 2014-06-09T21:28:31Z vraaid is now known as vraid 2014-06-09T21:31:33Z jaimef joined #scheme 2014-06-09T21:36:08Z hiroakip quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2014-06-09T21:38:38Z Oejet left #scheme 2014-06-09T21:39:19Z BitPuffin joined #scheme 2014-06-09T21:46:13Z theseb joined #scheme 2014-06-09T21:48:03Z vraaid joined #scheme 2014-06-09T21:48:11Z vraid quit (Disconnected by services) 2014-06-09T21:48:12Z vraaid is now known as vraid 2014-06-09T21:48:30Z tcsc quit (Quit: bye!) 2014-06-09T21:53:26Z jeapostrophe joined #scheme 2014-06-09T21:53:26Z jeapostrophe quit (Changing host) 2014-06-09T21:53:26Z jeapostrophe joined #scheme 2014-06-09T21:55:02Z rszeno joined #scheme 2014-06-09T21:59:41Z davexunit quit (Quit: Later) 2014-06-09T22:00:59Z Rptx joined #scheme 2014-06-09T22:06:45Z gravicappa quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-09T22:07:44Z offby1: jim: couple more times, I think 2014-06-09T22:08:44Z jeapostrophe quit (Quit: leaving) 2014-06-09T22:12:02Z _asc quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2014-06-09T22:17:05Z brendyn quit (*.net *.split) 2014-06-09T22:17:05Z z0d quit (*.net *.split) 2014-06-09T22:20:30Z pnkfelix quit (Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 24.3.91.1) 2014-06-09T22:24:23Z vraid quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-06-09T22:28:12Z brendyn joined #scheme 2014-06-09T22:29:29Z vraaid joined #scheme 2014-06-09T22:31:41Z joneshf-laptop quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-09T22:32:28Z z0d joined #scheme 2014-06-09T22:32:28Z z0d quit (Changing host) 2014-06-09T22:32:28Z z0d joined #scheme 2014-06-09T22:32:49Z joneshf-laptop joined #scheme 2014-06-09T22:35:38Z bjz joined #scheme 2014-06-09T22:38:43Z Sgeo joined #scheme 2014-06-09T22:40:32Z bjz quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2014-06-09T22:42:24Z alexei_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2014-06-09T22:44:43Z hkBst quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-09T23:05:41Z mrowe_away is now known as mrowe 2014-06-09T23:07:08Z garietyxxx quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2014-06-09T23:11:05Z daviid` joined #scheme 2014-06-09T23:12:38Z daviid quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-09T23:17:25Z aretecode quit (Quit: Toodaloo) 2014-06-09T23:17:44Z annodomini quit (Quit: annodomini) 2014-06-09T23:32:47Z george2 joined #scheme 2014-06-09T23:47:11Z nisstyre quit (Quit: WeeChat 0.4.3) 2014-06-09T23:47:47Z nisstyre joined #scheme 2014-06-09T23:52:42Z jim: offby1, he pinged out again? 2014-06-09T23:53:10Z jim: he's not here at all now anyway 2014-06-09T23:54:40Z offby1: I was just being sarcastic. In fact, I ignore PART, JOIN, etc. 2014-06-09T23:57:31Z jim: I felt it was important, and I hope he did catch it. Having said that I'm pretty sure NO ONE here likes my coding style... as evidenced by all who see it try to get me to change it :) 2014-06-10T00:03:00Z brianmwaters joined #scheme 2014-06-10T00:04:35Z jim: one person at least was so bristled, he was anti-motivated to help... 2014-06-10T00:10:55Z FracV quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-10T00:13:07Z brianmwaters quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2014-06-10T00:18:00Z brianmwaters joined #scheme 2014-06-10T00:21:35Z ANGRYSTEVE quit (Quit: Sunya in my bunya) 2014-06-10T00:30:39Z phax joined #scheme 2014-06-10T00:39:27Z brianmwaters quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2014-06-10T00:41:53Z b4283 quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2014-06-10T00:50:00Z racycle quit (Quit: ZZZzzz…) 2014-06-10T00:51:32Z davexunit joined #scheme 2014-06-10T00:51:43Z zeroish quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-10T00:56:07Z rszeno quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2014-06-10T01:01:35Z cbsw joined #scheme 2014-06-10T01:09:15Z brianmwaters joined #scheme 2014-06-10T01:20:37Z general_cryptic joined #scheme 2014-06-10T01:24:19Z jxv quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-10T01:26:16Z general_cryptic quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-10T01:26:44Z general_cryptic joined #scheme 2014-06-10T01:28:52Z general_cryptic quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-10T01:29:24Z general_cryptic joined #scheme 2014-06-10T01:36:49Z bjz joined #scheme 2014-06-10T01:36:58Z brianmwaters quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-10T01:40:51Z brianmwaters joined #scheme 2014-06-10T01:43:38Z daviid` quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-10T01:46:19Z general_cryptic quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-10T01:50:00Z cbsw quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2014-06-10T02:07:39Z phax quit (Quit: phax) 2014-06-10T02:13:59Z b4283 joined #scheme 2014-06-10T02:25:38Z araujo quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-06-10T02:26:07Z araujo joined #scheme 2014-06-10T02:26:13Z araujo quit (Changing host) 2014-06-10T02:26:13Z araujo joined #scheme 2014-06-10T02:26:52Z Rptx quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-06-10T02:30:13Z jlongster quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2014-06-10T02:34:56Z davexunit quit (Quit: Later) 2014-06-10T02:46:58Z KrazyCod3r joined #scheme 2014-06-10T02:47:00Z ivan\ quit (Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)) 2014-06-10T02:51:16Z KrazyCod3r: Hey guys, any one wanna do sicp with me ? 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2014-06-10T13:06:17Z taylanub: klrr_: depends, there is no standard really 2014-06-10T13:06:56Z klrr_: okey 2014-06-10T13:06:57Z antoszka: if there's no 'procedural' code in your top-level, than there would be no 'main' in your program. 2014-06-10T13:08:38Z taylanub: probably you can be pretty sure that when you load a library, the top-level program of that library is executed; if the library syntax you use allows nothing else but `define' forms, even that doesn't prevent stuff like (define foo (begin (side-effectful-thing) whatever)) ... 2014-06-10T13:09:56Z spaceotter quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2014-06-10T13:24:58Z duggiefresh joined #scheme 2014-06-10T13:28:27Z phax joined #scheme 2014-06-10T13:33:09Z jusss: whats the relation among "context" "environment" "name space" ? 2014-06-10T13:36:24Z kazimir42 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-10T13:39:14Z oleo joined #scheme 2014-06-10T13:39:44Z pjdelport: jusss: They're sorta the same thing, probably. There isn't a general formal distinction. 2014-06-10T13:40:06Z pjdelport: In certain contexts, an author might make a distinction, but that would be context-dependent.) 2014-06-10T13:41:27Z pjdelport: "Environment" sometimes has a more technical meaning, for example for eval. 2014-06-10T13:41:34Z garietyxxx joined #scheme 2014-06-10T13:41:39Z Kruppe quit (Quit: ZNC - http://znc.in) 2014-06-10T13:44:37Z jusss: pjdelport: what's "context-free grammar" ? 2014-06-10T13:45:13Z racycle joined #scheme 2014-06-10T13:45:42Z Riastradh: A nice way to describe a nice class of languages. 2014-06-10T13:45:47Z pjdelport: jusss: How much do you know about formal grammars in general? 2014-06-10T13:46:33Z racycle quit (Client Quit) 2014-06-10T13:46:52Z garietyxxx quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-06-10T13:47:07Z jusss: pjdelport: nothing... :-( 2014-06-10T13:47:33Z pjdelport: Ah, then you probably want to read some general background first, otherwise it might not make too much sense. 2014-06-10T13:47:49Z jusss: i see 2014-06-10T13:47:56Z pjdelport: Have you skimmed through https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Formal_grammar ? 2014-06-10T13:48:24Z pjdelport: You can skip the more technical stuff; just the overview bits. 2014-06-10T13:48:29Z pjdelport: Then, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chomsky_hierarchy 2014-06-10T13:48:54Z jusss: i see , thx 2014-06-10T13:49:31Z pjdelport: That will give you some framework; inside that, context-free grammars are a particular kind of grammar (with nice properties, as Riastradh said) 2014-06-10T13:53:17Z Kruppe joined #scheme 2014-06-10T13:56:48Z jlongster joined #scheme 2014-06-10T14:00:58Z jlongster quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-10T14:03:21Z pnkfelix quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-10T14:03:50Z pnkfelix joined #scheme 2014-06-10T14:05:02Z tenq is now known as tenq|out 2014-06-10T14:15:22Z jlongster joined #scheme 2014-06-10T14:17:19Z general_cryptic_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-10T14:17:46Z general_cryptic joined #scheme 2014-06-10T14:23:49Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2014-06-10T14:24:35Z przl joined #scheme 2014-06-10T14:27:28Z general_cryptic quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-10T14:28:47Z BitPuffin joined #scheme 2014-06-10T14:29:22Z general_cryptic joined #scheme 2014-06-10T14:31:45Z cbsw quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2014-06-10T14:33:00Z balkamos quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2014-06-10T14:33:56Z BitPuffin quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2014-06-10T14:33:58Z garietyxxx joined #scheme 2014-06-10T14:34:04Z balkamos joined #scheme 2014-06-10T14:39:09Z garietyxxx quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2014-06-10T14:40:07Z cbsw joined #scheme 2014-06-10T14:42:58Z bjz quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-10T14:43:40Z jusss: lisp-1 lisp-2 , whats meaning of '-' ? 2014-06-10T14:44:23Z pjdelport: You mean the difference between Lisp-1 versus Lisp-2 ? 2014-06-10T14:45:13Z jusss: i mean whats the symbol '-' 2014-06-10T14:45:56Z pjdelport: That's a moniker for two approaches to handling namespaces. Lisp-1 refers to the approach where both function names and variables names are part of the same namespace. Lisp-2 refers to the approach where they are separate. 2014-06-10T14:46:04Z pjdelport: Oh, that's just a normal hyphen. :) 2014-06-10T14:46:13Z pjdelport: It doesn't have any technical meaning. 2014-06-10T14:46:32Z arrubin joined #scheme 2014-06-10T14:47:12Z jusss: pjdelport: i see :-) 2014-06-10T14:52:29Z vinleod quit (Quit: ["Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com"]) 2014-06-10T14:53:02Z MichaelRaskin joined #scheme 2014-06-10T14:55:05Z general_cryptic quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-06-10T14:55:36Z general_cryptic joined #scheme 2014-06-10T14:55:41Z Nizumzen joined #scheme 2014-06-10T14:56:36Z garietyxxx joined #scheme 2014-06-10T15:04:13Z Rodya_ joined #scheme 2014-06-10T15:10:38Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-10T15:17:29Z przl joined #scheme 2014-06-10T15:18:40Z brianmwaters joined #scheme 2014-06-10T15:21:10Z DrDuck joined #scheme 2014-06-10T15:21:43Z daviid joined #scheme 2014-06-10T15:23:31Z george2 quit (Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.) 2014-06-10T15:23:40Z Kruppe quit (Quit: ZNC - http://znc.in) 2014-06-10T15:23:58Z george2 joined #scheme 2014-06-10T15:32:11Z pjb: jusss: Please read: http://www.nhplace.com/kent/Papers/Technical-Issues.html 2014-06-10T15:32:59Z jusss: pjb: reading 2014-06-10T15:34:14Z Kruppe joined #scheme 2014-06-10T15:37:54Z theseb joined #scheme 2014-06-10T15:40:34Z brianmwaters quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2014-06-10T15:43:17Z Okasu quit (Quit: Lost terminal) 2014-06-10T15:55:08Z garietyxxx quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2014-06-10T15:56:04Z leppie quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2014-06-10T15:56:21Z jusss quit (Quit: xxxxxxx) 2014-06-10T15:58:30Z racycle joined #scheme 2014-06-10T16:00:15Z leppie joined #scheme 2014-06-10T16:02:10Z przl quit (Quit: leaving) 2014-06-10T16:05:58Z klrr_: why isnt let letrec? 2014-06-10T16:07:29Z vraid: klrr_: (let ((a x) (b y)) body) is the same as ((lambda (a b) body) x y) 2014-06-10T16:07:46Z LeoNerd: If the values of any letrec bindings are functions, those functions can see the other bindings. The bodies of let values can't see other bindings 2014-06-10T16:10:43Z klrr_: well, my understanding from racket's dock is simply that letrec allows mutual recursion, i dont see why you would not want the bindings to being able to use each other 2014-06-10T16:15:09Z b4283 joined #scheme 2014-06-10T16:18:15Z Nizumzen quit (Quit: KVIrc 4.2.0 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/) 2014-06-10T16:18:28Z developernotes joined #scheme 2014-06-10T16:20:57Z garietyxxx joined #scheme 2014-06-10T16:25:29Z garietyxxx quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2014-06-10T16:26:02Z langmartin quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-10T16:31:50Z yrdz joined #scheme 2014-06-10T16:33:04Z pjdelport: klrr_: The idea is that you only use as much power as you need. 2014-06-10T16:33:10Z pjdelport: That's why there's let, let*, and letrec 2014-06-10T16:34:02Z pjdelport: let* imposes more constraints, by forcing a certain evaluation order, which you may not need or want. 2014-06-10T16:34:51Z garietyxxx joined #scheme 2014-06-10T16:34:54Z pjdelport: Similarly, letrec imposes its own costs above let. 2014-06-10T16:42:17Z spaceotter joined #scheme 2014-06-10T16:50:24Z oleo quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-10T16:55:06Z brianmwaters joined #scheme 2014-06-10T16:55:48Z vraid quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2014-06-10T16:57:43Z ivan\ joined #scheme 2014-06-10T16:57:46Z rszeno joined #scheme 2014-06-10T16:58:01Z oleo joined #scheme 2014-06-10T17:00:37Z cbsw quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2014-06-10T17:01:25Z klrr_ quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2014-06-10T17:02:35Z klrr_ joined #scheme 2014-06-10T17:02:48Z klrr_: okey, so there is some kind of performance overhead by let* and letrec, or are they purely a semantical difference? 2014-06-10T17:09:49Z Riastradh quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-06-10T17:10:37Z Riastradh joined #scheme 2014-06-10T17:11:12Z FracV quit (Quit: leaving) 2014-06-10T17:11:34Z FracV joined #scheme 2014-06-10T17:17:48Z karswell` is now known as karswell 2014-06-10T17:18:32Z developernotes quit (Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2014-06-10T17:19:29Z pjdelport: They are semantically different; the performance would depend on the implementation. 2014-06-10T17:19:39Z kuribas quit (Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)) 2014-06-10T17:19:56Z pjdelport: But as a rule of thumb, let is cheapest, because the compiler is free to rearrange it in more ways. 2014-06-10T17:20:36Z b4283 quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2014-06-10T17:28:10Z spaceotter quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2014-06-10T17:30:10Z garietyxxx quit (Quit: leaving) 2014-06-10T17:30:50Z spaceotter joined #scheme 2014-06-10T17:33:58Z rszeno quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2014-06-10T17:34:27Z langmartin joined #scheme 2014-06-10T17:37:58Z Kruppe quit (Quit: ZNC - http://znc.in) 2014-06-10T17:49:10Z Kruppe joined #scheme 2014-06-10T17:51:57Z joneshf-laptop quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-10T17:52:28Z oleo quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2014-06-10T17:53:10Z Nizumzen joined #scheme 2014-06-10T17:53:55Z ivan\_ joined #scheme 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("r" 8) -> "r8" 2014-06-11T00:17:44Z jim: so I'd first convert the number and then append 2014-06-11T00:20:36Z karswell` is now known as karswell 2014-06-11T00:37:43Z klltkr quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. 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If I wanted to include the elements of that list (and left to my own devices), would I have to unravel the "little" list and cons one at a time? 2014-06-11T01:36:55Z jim: so if the litttle list had say 3 elements, the consequent of the cond phrase would end up doing (cons el1 (cons el2 (cons el3 (call the func recursively)))) 2014-06-11T01:38:50Z jim: I guess I could have a parameter for that list, and if there were anything in it upon first calling, it could do the conses 2014-06-11T01:44:18Z joneshf-laptop joined #scheme 2014-06-11T01:50:26Z taylanub quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-11T01:51:57Z taylanub joined #scheme 2014-06-11T01:59:44Z ChouLin joined #scheme 2014-06-11T02:00:40Z jim: I wonder if I could come up with a value for the rest of the list before I need to consconscons it 2014-06-11T02:07:05Z turbofail: (append my-sublist (recursive-call ...)) 2014-06-11T02:07:44Z jim: forgot about append... 2014-06-11T02:08:09Z jim: so append instead of cons 2014-06-11T02:08:12Z b4283 joined #scheme 2014-06-11T02:09:54Z turbofail: sure, if you're producing a list 2014-06-11T02:10:08Z jim: yes I am :) that worked 2014-06-11T02:10:29Z turbofail: there's also cons*, which is part of srfi-1 2014-06-11T02:10:51Z jim: which makes map (more) viable 2014-06-11T02:11:07Z jim: what's srfi-1? 2014-06-11T02:11:50Z turbofail: which basically works like (cons* a b c d) -> (cons a (cons b (cons c d))) 2014-06-11T02:12:50Z turbofail: srfi's are "scheme requests for implementations," which are basically library specifications that have been suggested by the community 2014-06-11T02:12:52Z jim: so a proper list is (cons* a b c d '())? 2014-06-11T02:13:11Z turbofail: well depending on what d is, (cons* a b c d) could be proper too 2014-06-11T02:13:40Z jim: if d is already a list you mean? 2014-06-11T02:13:43Z turbofail: yeah 2014-06-11T02:14:13Z jim: is it that there's something slecial about the second last param? 2014-06-11T02:14:59Z jim: special 2014-06-11T02:15:13Z turbofail: second last? nothing's special about that at all 2014-06-11T02:16:00Z turbofail: it works exactly like you would have done things manually if you wanted to cons on several items onto a list 2014-06-11T02:17:18Z jim: so the last parameter is your "already a list" and it could come from the typical recursive call 2014-06-11T02:17:29Z turbofail: yes 2014-06-11T02:17:46Z turbofail: though obviously it doesn't have to already be a list if you don't feel like it 2014-06-11T02:18:01Z jim: and so, it behaves a little like the second param to plain ol' cons 2014-06-11T02:18:07Z turbofail: yes 2014-06-11T02:18:51Z jim: would cons* be implemented as a macro? 2014-06-11T02:18:59Z davexunit quit (Quit: Later) 2014-06-11T02:19:12Z turbofail: there's no reason why it would have to be 2014-06-11T02:19:25Z turbofail: i don't think anybody implements it as one 2014-06-11T02:19:41Z turbofail: except maybe dysvunctional language 2014-06-11T02:20:12Z jim: can it be implemented as a plain func? 2014-06-11T02:20:17Z turbofail: yeah 2014-06-11T02:20:59Z jim: cool! thanks! append for now, and I'll be counting the times I will find cons* handy 2014-06-11T02:21:27Z 92AABD21A joined #scheme 2014-06-11T02:21:27Z 20WAABZDW joined #scheme 2014-06-11T02:26:49Z frkout joined #scheme 2014-06-11T02:31:35Z frkout_ joined #scheme 2014-06-11T02:34:28Z ChouLin quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2014-06-11T02:35:24Z frkout quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2014-06-11T02:48:36Z Rodya_ joined #scheme 2014-06-11T02:51:19Z jlongster joined #scheme 2014-06-11T03:03:07Z josso000 quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-06-11T03:03:40Z bjz joined #scheme 2014-06-11T03:16:58Z ChouLin joined #scheme 2014-06-11T03:18:40Z racycle joined #scheme 2014-06-11T03:23:05Z wingo joined #scheme 2014-06-11T03:26:25Z ivan\_ joined #scheme 2014-06-11T03:26:25Z ivan\_ quit (Changing host) 2014-06-11T03:26:25Z ivan\_ joined #scheme 2014-06-11T03:27:43Z ivan\ quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2014-06-11T03:27:55Z josso joined #scheme 2014-06-11T03:27:56Z josso is now known as Guest90391 2014-06-11T03:28:19Z ivan\_ is now known as ivan\ 2014-06-11T03:29:32Z cbsw joined #scheme 2014-06-11T03:32:38Z jxv quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-11T03:32:51Z _will_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-11T03:32:58Z _will_ joined #scheme 2014-06-11T03:33:26Z sheilong joined #scheme 2014-06-11T03:35:31Z pjb quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2014-06-11T03:37:35Z MichaelRaskin quit (Quit: MichaelRaskin) 2014-06-11T03:37:49Z __JokerDoom quit (Quit: Leaving) 2014-06-11T03:40:33Z ChouLin quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2014-06-11T03:43:23Z DGASAU` joined #scheme 2014-06-11T03:43:27Z DGASAU quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2014-06-11T03:47:29Z BitPuffin quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2014-06-11T03:50:08Z phax joined #scheme 2014-06-11T03:53:19Z general_cryptic quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-11T04:02:44Z general_cryptic joined #scheme 2014-06-11T04:06:54Z general_cryptic quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-11T04:15:43Z jlongster quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2014-06-11T04:17:29Z daviid joined #scheme 2014-06-11T04:22:08Z MichaelRaskin joined #scheme 2014-06-11T04:22:51Z phax quit (Quit: phax) 2014-06-11T04:33:08Z frkout_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-11T04:33:42Z frkout joined #scheme 2014-06-11T04:34:24Z cbsw quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2014-06-11T04:38:04Z Soft quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2014-06-11T04:42:02Z racycle quit (Quit: ZZZzzz…) 2014-06-11T04:47:08Z BitPuffin joined #scheme 2014-06-11T05:00:58Z frkout_ joined #scheme 2014-06-11T05:02:29Z frkout_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-06-11T05:02:51Z frkout_ joined #scheme 2014-06-11T05:03:57Z frkout quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-06-11T05:04:51Z Soft joined #scheme 2014-06-11T05:11:26Z Shadox quit (Quit: Leaving) 2014-06-11T05:18:37Z oleo quit (Quit: Verlassend) 2014-06-11T05:32:52Z sheilong quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2014-06-11T05:49:18Z spaceotter quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-11T05:50:25Z frkout_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-11T05:50:58Z frkout joined #scheme 2014-06-11T06:15:58Z spaceotter joined #scheme 2014-06-11T06:26:32Z kazimir42 joined #scheme 2014-06-11T06:31:53Z arrubin quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. 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2014-06-11T15:11:50Z DrDuck: Do you think the authors intended readers to do problem 2.64 of SICP by hand or with a debugger: http://mitpress.mit.edu/sicp/full-text/book/book-Z-H-16.html#%_thm_2.64 2014-06-11T15:11:59Z DrDuck: Dont wanna cheat myself. I can go through it with pen and paper, but it's taking a while. 2014-06-11T15:12:07Z DrDuck: There's nothing wrong with using a debugger here, right? It's a tool meant to make you more efficient. 2014-06-11T15:12:17Z BitPuffin quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-06-11T15:13:32Z hkBst quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-06-11T15:14:26Z langmartin joined #scheme 2014-06-11T15:20:44Z misv quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2014-06-11T15:21:21Z misv joined #scheme 2014-06-11T15:22:31Z alexei_ joined #scheme 2014-06-11T15:26:01Z kazimir42 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-11T15:28:01Z developernotes quit (Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2014-06-11T15:30:03Z stis joined #scheme 2014-06-11T15:31:42Z developernotes joined #scheme 2014-06-11T15:31:56Z theseb joined #scheme 2014-06-11T15:34:47Z yacks joined #scheme 2014-06-11T15:39:44Z theseb quit (Quit: Leaving) 2014-06-11T15:42:33Z developernotes quit (Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. 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How were you concerned arithmetic operators would be involved? 2014-06-11T18:58:51Z vraid: Mirazi_Heket: = in c++ is not an arithmetic operator 2014-06-11T18:58:58Z Mirazi_Heket: i know 2014-06-11T18:59:01Z Mirazi_Heket: its assignment 2014-06-11T18:59:07Z guampa quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-11T18:59:09Z pjb: So why are you mentioning arithmetic operators? 2014-06-11T18:59:31Z guampa joined #scheme 2014-06-11T18:59:32Z Mirazi_Heket: damn this irc channel is crazy 2014-06-11T18:59:33Z Mirazi_Heket: i like it 2014-06-11T18:59:39Z Mirazi_Heket: wanted to learn something seriously 2014-06-11T18:59:46Z Mirazi_Heket: i was wondering if i can do X this way 2014-06-11T19:00:00Z Mirazi_Heket: its always better to know more 2014-06-11T19:00:05Z Mirazi_Heket: no exceptions 2014-06-11T19:00:12Z pjb: Mirazi_Heket: it's like asking "how can I change the value of 'value without an umbrella? 2014-06-11T19:00:14Z pjb: " 2014-06-11T19:00:22Z pjb: Understandably, we're puzzled! 2014-06-11T19:00:45Z Mirazi_Heket: well, maybe i wasn't clear enough 2014-06-11T19:01:15Z Mirazi_Heket: anyway you helped me and i am glad, and ... as i mentioned - i wont avoid arithmetic operators... 2014-06-11T19:01:40Z pjb: No need to mention them :-) 2014-06-11T19:06:37Z Mirazi_Heket left #scheme 2014-06-11T19:07:22Z oleo__ joined #scheme 2014-06-11T19:07:22Z oleo is now known as Guest24323 2014-06-11T19:07:46Z oleo__ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-06-11T19:08:25Z oleo__ joined #scheme 2014-06-11T19:08:32Z Guest24323 quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-06-11T19:08:39Z oleo__ is now known as oleo 2014-06-11T19:08:58Z AkashicLegend joined #scheme 2014-06-11T19:17:23Z vinleod quit (Quit: ["Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com"]) 2014-06-11T19:20:15Z jeapostr1phe joined #scheme 2014-06-11T19:22:14Z alexei_ is now known as amgarchIn9 2014-06-11T19:22:48Z jcowan joined #scheme 2014-06-11T19:22:50Z jcowan_ joined #scheme 2014-06-11T19:22:59Z jcowan_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-06-11T19:24:16Z DrDuck quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2014-06-11T19:34:35Z Nizumzen quit (Quit: KVIrc 4.2.0 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/) 2014-06-11T19:36:53Z spaceotter quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-06-11T19:38:15Z spaceotter joined #scheme 2014-06-11T19:45:12Z b4283 quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2014-06-11T19:49:13Z Riastradh quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-11T19:51:34Z xyh joined #scheme 2014-06-11T19:52:39Z ehaliewicz joined #scheme 2014-06-11T19:54:25Z Riastradh joined #scheme 2014-06-11T19:59:08Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-11T20:02:07Z przl joined #scheme 2014-06-11T20:13:32Z theseb joined #scheme 2014-06-11T20:25:05Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2014-06-11T20:26:05Z spaceotter quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-06-11T20:27:03Z kazimir42 joined #scheme 2014-06-11T20:33:55Z xyh left #scheme 2014-06-11T20:35:09Z przl joined #scheme 2014-06-11T20:35:34Z sroy_ quit (Quit: Quitte) 2014-06-11T20:39:28Z rtra quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2014-06-11T20:39:53Z fridim_ quit (*.net *.split) 2014-06-11T20:39:53Z niklasl quit (*.net *.split) 2014-06-11T20:39:54Z ozzloy quit (*.net *.split) 2014-06-11T20:39:54Z clog quit (*.net *.split) 2014-06-11T20:39:54Z tessier quit (*.net *.split) 2014-06-11T20:39:54Z cratuki_ quit (*.net *.split) 2014-06-11T20:39:54Z chrisirc quit (*.net *.split) 2014-06-11T20:39:54Z kilimanjaro_ quit (*.net *.split) 2014-06-11T20:39:55Z ecraven quit (*.net *.split) 2014-06-11T20:39:55Z amoe quit (*.net *.split) 2014-06-11T20:39:59Z kilimanjaro_ joined #scheme 2014-06-11T20:40:01Z clog joined #scheme 2014-06-11T20:40:04Z ozzloy joined #scheme 2014-06-11T20:40:07Z theseb quit (Quit: Leaving) 2014-06-11T20:40:10Z cratuki joined #scheme 2014-06-11T20:40:12Z chrisirc joined #scheme 2014-06-11T20:40:15Z amoe joined #scheme 2014-06-11T20:40:16Z fridim_ joined #scheme 2014-06-11T20:40:29Z niklasl joined #scheme 2014-06-11T20:42:53Z wingo quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-06-11T20:44:33Z rtra joined #scheme 2014-06-11T20:53:58Z net4all left #scheme 2014-06-11T20:55:12Z jcowan quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-06-11T20:58:41Z ecraven joined #scheme 2014-06-11T20:59:50Z stis quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2014-06-11T21:10:15Z vinleod joined #scheme 2014-06-11T21:12:14Z jcowan joined #scheme 2014-06-11T21:18:27Z Intensity quit (*.net *.split) 2014-06-11T21:18:27Z fikusz_ quit (*.net *.split) 2014-06-11T21:18:27Z gabot quit (*.net *.split) 2014-06-11T21:18:54Z fikusz_ joined #scheme 2014-06-11T21:18:56Z gabot joined #scheme 2014-06-11T21:19:51Z ASau joined #scheme 2014-06-11T21:30:16Z mmc joined #scheme 2014-06-11T21:33:15Z bars0 joined #scheme 2014-06-11T21:33:33Z Intensity joined #scheme 2014-06-11T21:35:13Z bars0 quit (Client Quit) 2014-06-11T21:36:39Z tessier joined #scheme 2014-06-11T21:36:39Z tessier quit (Changing host) 2014-06-11T21:36:39Z tessier joined #scheme 2014-06-11T21:40:26Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2014-06-11T21:40:33Z klltkr joined #scheme 2014-06-11T21:40:42Z Fare joined #scheme 2014-06-11T21:42:14Z przl joined #scheme 2014-06-11T21:44:11Z hkBst quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-11T21:49:25Z langmartin quit (Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)) 2014-06-11T21:49:49Z klltkr quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2014-06-11T21:55:39Z developernotes quit (Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com) 2014-06-11T22:02:35Z altphi quit 2014-06-11T22:07:01Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2014-06-11T22:16:13Z boycottg00gle joined #scheme 2014-06-11T22:17:06Z vinleod quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.) 2014-06-11T22:21:55Z jeapostr1phe quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-11T22:26:32Z davexunit quit (Quit: Later) 2014-06-11T22:28:44Z klltkr joined #scheme 2014-06-11T22:30:17Z AkashicLegend quit (Quit: AkashicLegend) 2014-06-11T22:35:01Z Sgeo joined #scheme 2014-06-11T22:35:55Z AkashicLegend joined #scheme 2014-06-11T22:42:42Z gravicappa quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-06-11T22:44:22Z jeapostrophe joined #scheme 2014-06-11T22:45:15Z robot-beethoven joined #scheme 2014-06-11T22:45:47Z cky944 is now known as cky 2014-06-11T22:45:58Z cky quit (Changing host) 2014-06-11T22:45:58Z cky joined #scheme 2014-06-11T22:47:38Z joneshf-laptop quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-11T22:59:21Z jim: is there a way to "call" a repl so I can look at the vars in the stack frame? 2014-06-11T22:59:26Z jim: in guile 2014-06-11T22:59:30Z jim: 2 2014-06-11T23:01:18Z jim: I have a case where a (not (= ... ...)) should have been false (aka, it WAS = according to the display of some vars) 2014-06-11T23:01:31Z jeapostrophe quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2014-06-11T23:02:40Z AkashicLegend quit (Quit: AkashicLegend) 2014-06-11T23:04:24Z jxv joined #scheme 2014-06-11T23:04:28Z arrubin quit 2014-06-11T23:06:28Z matheus23 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-11T23:10:09Z boycottg00gle quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-11T23:12:02Z rszeno joined #scheme 2014-06-11T23:14:22Z jlongster quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-06-11T23:16:08Z davexunit joined #scheme 2014-06-11T23:17:24Z AkashicLegend joined #scheme 2014-06-11T23:17:58Z AkashicLegend quit (Client Quit) 2014-06-11T23:18:19Z jeapostrophe joined #scheme 2014-06-11T23:18:19Z jeapostrophe quit (Changing host) 2014-06-11T23:18:19Z jeapostrophe joined #scheme 2014-06-11T23:20:30Z mrowe_away is now known as mrowe 2014-06-11T23:28:40Z ASau quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-06-11T23:29:27Z ASau joined #scheme 2014-06-11T23:33:45Z rszeno quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2014-06-11T23:35:16Z jlongster joined #scheme 2014-06-11T23:45:39Z jim: while I'd still be curious about a way to examine a stack frame and its vars, I discovered why my particular situation is happening... 2014-06-11T23:47:08Z amgarchIn9 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-11T23:48:14Z Fare quit (Quit: Leaving) 2014-06-11T23:57:15Z jcowan quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2014-06-12T00:17:20Z jcowan joined #scheme 2014-06-12T00:24:54Z Nizumzen joined #scheme 2014-06-12T00:30:00Z aoh quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2014-06-12T00:40:31Z jim: all fixed :) 2014-06-12T00:41:48Z AkashicLegend joined #scheme 2014-06-12T00:46:53Z racycle quit (Quit: ZZZzzz…) 2014-06-12T00:51:14Z FracV quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-12T00:55:42Z jeapostrophe quit (Quit: leaving) 2014-06-12T00:55:51Z jcowan quit (Quit: Leaving) 2014-06-12T00:59:58Z arrubin joined #scheme 2014-06-12T01:03:01Z taylanub quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-06-12T01:03:28Z taylanub joined #scheme 2014-06-12T01:04:18Z DGASAU` joined #scheme 2014-06-12T01:06:24Z DGASAU quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2014-06-12T01:10:37Z jlongster quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-06-12T01:12:45Z BitPuffin joined #scheme 2014-06-12T01:21:57Z ANGRYSTEVE quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-06-12T01:37:07Z pera quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-12T01:48:19Z niklasl quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-12T01:52:02Z klltkr quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. 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If I was put back in the 70s I would never have thought of making a lexically scoped lisp. Alpha renaming makes sense for an anonymous system like lambda calculus, but system dynamic scope is so natural for an interpreter I would never have looked for anything else. In the modern day how can I avoid making similar mistakes? 2014-06-12T04:17:41Z doesthiswork: was implementing a lambda calculus interpreter in lisp enough to see the problem? 2014-06-12T04:20:50Z sheilong quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2014-06-12T04:21:46Z nisstyre: doesthiswork: you might want to check out http://library.readscheme.org/page1.html 2014-06-12T04:25:47Z jlongster quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2014-06-12T04:27:16Z doesthiswork: I have read them all, he clearly expains why static scope is better but not what convinced him it was a good idea to try it. (was plasma statically scoped?) 2014-06-12T04:27:31Z doesthiswork: and I am troubled because I wouldn't have tried it 2014-06-12T04:30:57Z nisstyre: doesthiswork: email him and ask then 2014-06-12T04:31:10Z doesthiswork: ok I think I will 2014-06-12T04:31:38Z nisstyre: ask if it's okay to post his response somewhere too okay 2014-06-12T04:31:41Z nisstyre: I'd love to read it 2014-06-12T04:35:29Z phax joined #scheme 2014-06-12T04:36:14Z rins quit (Quit: WeeChat 0.4.2) 2014-06-12T04:46:35Z racycle quit (Quit: ZZZzzz…) 2014-06-12T04:51:39Z sheilong joined #scheme 2014-06-12T04:58:27Z arrubin quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2014-06-12T05:00:24Z oleo quit (Quit: Verlassend) 2014-06-12T05:01:25Z AkashicLegend quit (Quit: AkashicLegend) 2014-06-12T05:08:00Z frkout_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-12T05:08:34Z frkout joined #scheme 2014-06-12T05:12:38Z phax quit (Quit: phax) 2014-06-12T05:36:49Z bjz quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-06-12T05:36:53Z BitPuffin quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-06-12T05:37:47Z bjz joined #scheme 2014-06-12T05:49:16Z jim: one question... better for what? 2014-06-12T05:50:29Z jim: and what troubles you about what you would or would not have tried? if you did, what would that have given you access to? 2014-06-12T05:51:14Z jxv quit (Quit: QUIT) 2014-06-12T05:51:37Z jim: mainly it doesn't make sense to me, because here we are in this timeline. If we were in the other, what questions would you be asking "now"? 2014-06-12T05:53:56Z jim: you started with the question "can you folk help with something", it turned out to be a hypothetical based on you doing something you wouldn't have thought of which someone else did... and it leaves me with the question, what is your purpose? 2014-06-12T05:54:34Z doesthiswork: I'm using the past as training 2014-06-12T05:54:58Z jim: for what purpose? 2014-06-12T05:55:13Z doesthiswork: so that I am better able to create things now 2014-06-12T05:55:50Z jim: to create things. to be creative. I'm curious what you see as hindering that? 2014-06-12T05:56:24Z doesthiswork: nothing is hindering that, but It is always fun to be more effective 2014-06-12T05:56:55Z jim: I don't want to throw too much of a spoiler, but here's what I think you're gonna find... 2014-06-12T05:57:51Z kazimir42 quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-06-12T05:57:59Z jim: when you come into a project and you get fully warmed up, you're going to be able to create anything you need, and after debugging a bit, it's gonna work for you 2014-06-12T05:59:08Z jim: forgive me for bringing up the past, but the mother of each invention is going to be the necessity to connect one thing to another to support integrating the whole 2014-06-12T06:01:16Z jim: if it's your unltimate purpose to come up with the next Big Programming Idiom, I hope you do it, and I hope the purpose will be to satisfy a desire you have. 2014-06-12T06:01:28Z frkout_ joined #scheme 2014-06-12T06:02:35Z jim: and you'll find the most fun not in effectiveness as an attribute, but in the things you apply the effectiveness to 2014-06-12T06:02:49Z frkout__ joined #scheme 2014-06-12T06:04:43Z frkout quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-12T06:04:47Z jim: as long as you apply your own -personal- desire as the driving idea in each moment, the result you get will be more of everything: more fun, more satisfying, more useful, more robust, more deep and more broad. 2014-06-12T06:05:39Z frkout_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-12T06:08:16Z doesthiswork: I don't expect to come up with any next big programming idioms, but if I have the chance adopt the kind of thinking that allows me to see when things could be different, that analytic ability will be useful for many things 2014-06-12T06:13:10Z jim: if you had that ability, at total mastery level, what would you then have access to? 2014-06-12T06:17:48Z doesthiswork: Have you ever hear the saying that when you're programming you only use as much math as you know? 2014-06-12T06:20:11Z doesthiswork: I don't know yet the things that better analytic abilities would allow me to see, but every time in the past I understood more, I became able to create things that I couldn't before 2014-06-12T06:20:16Z doesthiswork: goodnight for now 2014-06-12T06:20:24Z doesthiswork quit (Quit: Page closed) 2014-06-12T06:27:28Z frkout__ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-12T06:28:05Z frkout joined #scheme 2014-06-12T06:45:54Z BitPuffin joined #scheme 2014-06-12T06:47:26Z yacks joined #scheme 2014-06-12T07:09:25Z jewel joined #scheme 2014-06-12T07:17:51Z wingo joined #scheme 2014-06-12T07:19:57Z daviid quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2014-06-12T07:28:44Z mrowe is now known as mrowe_away 2014-06-12T07:45:36Z przl joined #scheme 2014-06-12T07:49:09Z kazimir42 joined #scheme 2014-06-12T07:53:02Z zajn joined #scheme 2014-06-12T07:58:11Z hkBst joined #scheme 2014-06-12T08:07:07Z hkBst quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-12T08:09:16Z rszeno joined #scheme 2014-06-12T08:12:33Z ASau quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2014-06-12T08:17:13Z hkBst joined #scheme 2014-06-12T08:20:14Z rszeno quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2014-06-12T08:29:59Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2014-06-12T08:30:33Z przl joined #scheme 2014-06-12T08:33:15Z zajn quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-12T08:33:17Z hkBst quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-06-12T08:38:09Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-12T08:39:09Z przl joined #scheme 2014-06-12T08:47:31Z vraid quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-12T08:48:13Z DGASAU` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-12T08:48:51Z DGASAU` joined #scheme 2014-06-12T08:51:27Z DGASAU` is now known as DGASAU 2014-06-12T08:59:10Z robot-beethoven quit (Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)) 2014-06-12T08:59:41Z frkout_ joined #scheme 2014-06-12T09:01:09Z FracV joined #scheme 2014-06-12T09:03:03Z aftershave joined #scheme 2014-06-12T09:03:30Z frkout quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-06-12T09:14:50Z jusss joined #scheme 2014-06-12T09:20:15Z vraid joined #scheme 2014-06-12T09:21:09Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-12T09:21:42Z hkBst joined #scheme 2014-06-12T09:24:12Z pnkfelix joined #scheme 2014-06-12T09:34:51Z ehaliewicz quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2014-06-12T09:42:23Z taylanub quit (Disconnected by services) 2014-06-12T09:42:39Z taylanub joined #scheme 2014-06-12T09:52:16Z jusss: i'm confused about dynamic scope...what its different between lexical and dynamic? 2014-06-12T09:52:27Z jusss: (define (bla1) (bla2)) 2014-06-12T09:52:37Z jusss: (define (bla2) (+ z1 z2)) 2014-06-12T09:52:55Z jusss: (let ((z1 3)(z2 3)) (bla1)) -> 6 2014-06-12T09:56:33Z jusss: the variable's value is the latest binding value ? 2014-06-12T10:02:21Z matheus23 joined #scheme 2014-06-12T10:02:40Z pjdelport: jusss: Right. With dynamic scoping, the environment / name space is defined by the caller at runtime. 2014-06-12T10:03:04Z pjdelport: (Which can get very confusing and brittle.) 2014-06-12T10:03:24Z przl joined #scheme 2014-06-12T10:03:43Z pjdelport: With lexical scoping, the environment is statically defined by the function's surrounding lexical scope only. 2014-06-12T10:05:39Z hkBst quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-12T10:08:15Z jusss: pjdelport: the variable in dynamic scope is different with thg global variable ? 2014-06-12T10:09:25Z pjdelport: jusss: It depends; with dynamic scoping, the variable you see *may* be coming from the global scope, but it may also be coming from any caller in between the current function and the global scope. 2014-06-12T10:10:25Z pjdelport: jusss: Basically, dynamic scoping means you look in the current function's local scope, and if you don't find the binding there, you look in the caller, then in its caller, and so on, until you reach the global scope. 2014-06-12T10:11:06Z fgudin quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2014-06-12T10:18:05Z jusss: pjdelport: (set! f (let ((x 1)) (lambda (y) (list x y)))) the variable x is in the function f's local scope? 2014-06-12T10:20:21Z pjdelport: jusss: Not strictly speaking, no. The let block establishes its own temporary scope outside of the lambda. 2014-06-12T10:20:56Z MichaelRaskin quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-12T10:21:33Z pjdelport: So there are three scopes there: (1) the very outer (or global) scope that f is being rebound in, (2) the let block's scope, which contains x, and (3) the lambda form's scope, which contains y. 2014-06-12T10:22:19Z pjb quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-12T10:23:11Z pjdelport: But note that under the hood, all the scopes are just lambdas: you can always rewrite the let in (let ((x 1)) (lambda (y) (list x y))) as a lambda: ((lambda (x) (lambda (y) (list x y))) 1) 2014-06-12T10:23:38Z pjdelport: (In other words, let is just a shortcut for defining and immediately calling a lambda.) 2014-06-12T10:28:13Z MichaelRaskin joined #scheme 2014-06-12T10:36:47Z jusss: pjdelport: the variable in inside scope can look for the value from outside scope, but the variable in outside scop cann't look for value from inside scope ? it's right ? 2014-06-12T10:37:30Z pjdelport: jusss: That sounds about right, probably. 2014-06-12T10:37:33Z jusss: (define (a) (let ((n 1))) (+ n 1) 2014-06-12T10:41:48Z jusss: pjdelport: the variable in lexical/static scope just look for value in local scope ? 2014-06-12T10:42:02Z pjdelport: Right, the local lexical scope. 2014-06-12T10:42:37Z jusss: pjdelport: i see, thx :-) 2014-06-12T10:43:23Z yacks quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-12T10:56:47Z mrowe_away is now known as mrowe 2014-06-12T10:58:30Z frkout_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-12T10:58:56Z b4283 quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2014-06-12T10:59:05Z frkout joined #scheme 2014-06-12T11:01:28Z jaaqo joined #scheme 2014-06-12T11:01:43Z c74d quit (Excess Flood) 2014-06-12T11:09:21Z c74d joined #scheme 2014-06-12T11:10:48Z tali713 quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2014-06-12T11:11:42Z aftershave quit (Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com) 2014-06-12T11:16:17Z tali713 joined #scheme 2014-06-12T11:17:03Z yacks joined #scheme 2014-06-12T11:18:37Z aftershave joined #scheme 2014-06-12T11:20:36Z jusss quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-12T11:26:03Z mrowe is now known as mrowe_away 2014-06-12T11:28:45Z vinleod joined #scheme 2014-06-12T11:42:53Z pjb joined #scheme 2014-06-12T11:43:17Z pjb is now known as Guest84256 2014-06-12T11:44:42Z Guest84256 is now known as pjb` 2014-06-12T11:44:57Z pjb` is now known as pjb 2014-06-12T11:48:31Z ANGRYSTEVE joined #scheme 2014-06-12T11:51:47Z f-a joined #scheme 2014-06-12T11:54:50Z Sgeo quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-06-12T12:05:02Z b4283 joined #scheme 2014-06-12T12:10:40Z f-a quit (Quit: leaving) 2014-06-12T12:23:03Z kazimir42 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-12T12:28:43Z kazimir42 joined #scheme 2014-06-12T12:37:20Z sroy_ joined #scheme 2014-06-12T12:40:09Z frkout quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-12T12:41:54Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-06-12T12:52:06Z hkBst joined #scheme 2014-06-12T12:59:13Z developernotes joined #scheme 2014-06-12T13:00:46Z phax joined #scheme 2014-06-12T13:01:24Z hkBst quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-12T13:05:41Z yacks quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-06-12T13:05:50Z davexunit joined #scheme 2014-06-12T13:06:35Z jlongster joined #scheme 2014-06-12T13:11:18Z developernotes quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-06-12T13:12:41Z developernotes joined #scheme 2014-06-12T13:17:51Z AkashicLegend joined #scheme 2014-06-12T13:26:36Z przl joined #scheme 2014-06-12T13:34:45Z oleo joined #scheme 2014-06-12T13:35:21Z jusss joined #scheme 2014-06-12T13:42:49Z developernotes quit (Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com) 2014-06-12T13:51:13Z Mirazi_Heket joined #scheme 2014-06-12T13:51:32Z Mirazi_Heket: little noobish question - how to return value from define function? 2014-06-12T13:51:48Z Mirazi_Heket: im using cond inside, everything is fine, just it doesnt return value 2014-06-12T13:52:03Z vraid: Mirazi_Heket: you need to *call* a function to get a value 2014-06-12T13:52:06Z Riastradh: Need to specify exactly what you typed, exactly what you saw, and exactly what you expceted to see. 2014-06-12T13:52:12Z vraid: rudybot: (define (f x) 5) 2014-06-12T13:52:12Z rudybot: vraid: your sandbox is ready 2014-06-12T13:52:12Z rudybot: vraid: Done. 2014-06-12T13:52:15Z vraid: rudybot: (f) 2014-06-12T13:52:15Z rudybot: vraid: error: f: arity mismatch; the expected number of arguments does not match the given number expected: 1 given: 0 2014-06-12T13:52:20Z vraid: rudybot: (f 0) 2014-06-12T13:52:20Z rudybot: vraid: ; Value: 5 2014-06-12T13:52:35Z Mirazi_Heket: wait a little 2014-06-12T13:53:43Z Mirazi_Heket: http://codepad.org/v2ngzQGW 2014-06-12T13:53:45Z Mirazi_Heket: done! 2014-06-12T13:53:46Z Mirazi_Heket: thanks 2014-06-12T13:54:21Z oleo: morning 2014-06-12T13:54:53Z pjdelport: Mirazi_Heket: You can skip that define and set! entirely, and just return the result directly from the cond. 2014-06-12T13:56:09Z jaaqo quit (Quit: Lost terminal) 2014-06-12T13:56:54Z pjdelport: Mirazi_Heket: http://codepad.org/TJnfPjji 2014-06-12T13:57:50Z Riastradh: Mirazi_Heket, what is the problem you observed? That is, what did you expect to see, if not 21? 2014-06-12T13:58:58Z pjdelport: Riastradh: Sounds like they solved that problem themselves. :) 2014-06-12T14:02:45Z Mirazi_Heket: the general problem in scheme is counting parenthesises 2014-06-12T14:03:23Z vraid: it becomes a second nature after a while 2014-06-12T14:06:14Z Riastradh: Don't count them. Let your editor count them and indent your code for you. 2014-06-12T14:07:44Z Riastradh: If you find yourself counting them on a line, you should break that line into multiple lines. E.g., I would have broken the ELSE line in pjdelport's code into two or three, with a break between the two recursive calls to FIBONACCI. 2014-06-12T14:08:43Z BitPuffin quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-12T14:09:35Z jewel: Mirazi_Heket, you should use something like Racket or Emacs where the editor will match up the parentheses for you 2014-06-12T14:09:42Z pjdelport: Mirazi_Heket: You should use an editor that helps with that, yeah. (I use Vim, many people use Emacs, and there are probably many others that are good.) 2014-06-12T14:10:08Z taylanub: Mirazi_Heket: vraid: use paredit, no sane person counts parentheses, it leads to silly stuff like Sweet Expressions 2014-06-12T14:10:33Z pjdelport: http://codepad.org/meB8yUOw is a version that's slightly more readable, like Riastradh suggested. 2014-06-12T14:11:32Z cdidd_ joined #scheme 2014-06-12T14:11:57Z taylanub likes SRFI-105 for certain purposes, but the rest of Sweet Expressions is very very wrong IMO, editing sexpr code with paredit is *more* convenient than editing non-sexpr code with whatever you have 2014-06-12T14:12:15Z cdidd quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2014-06-12T14:12:55Z Mirazi_Heket: im on linux, vim have disgusting key shortcuts and racket is not that bad (lack of edition) 2014-06-12T14:13:55Z Mirazi_Heket: corrected my code 2014-06-12T14:14:08Z Mirazi_Heket: its not that bad with code formatting 2014-06-12T14:14:28Z Mirazi_Heket: this http://codepad.org/TJnfPjji 2014-06-12T14:14:33Z Mirazi_Heket: and my http://codepad.org/31OvJD6n :) 2014-06-12T14:15:23Z jxv joined #scheme 2014-06-12T14:15:29Z Riastradh: I use Emacs. 2014-06-12T14:17:12Z pjdelport: Mirazi_Heket: It might be tempting at first to format parentheses that way, but you'll probably quickly find it just becomes tiring, and obscures the actual code's structure. 2014-06-12T14:18:24Z pjdelport: When you indent code idiomatically, the parentheses should become all but invisible to your eyes: the indentation will tell you essentially everything you need to know about the code's structure. 2014-06-12T14:21:31Z jxv quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-06-12T14:23:45Z oleo quit (Quit: Verlassend) 2014-06-12T14:28:00Z vraid: taylanub: i don't count parentheses, my eyes backtrack and i close one expression after another 2014-06-12T14:28:02Z oleo joined #scheme 2014-06-12T14:28:50Z oleo quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-06-12T14:30:32Z vraid: that's for writing code though, i wouldn't edit existing code without parenthesis matching 2014-06-12T14:30:43Z oleo joined #scheme 2014-06-12T14:32:00Z taylanub: vraid: that'd fall under "paren counting" for me :) have you tried paredit? 2014-06-12T14:33:45Z hiyosi joined #scheme 2014-06-12T14:36:25Z vraid: ah, it keeps them balanced at all times? 2014-06-12T14:38:49Z taylanub: yes, forces it in the normal case (you can in turn forcibly break the balance if needed for some reason) takes some getting used to initially because you can't just delete singular opening/closing parantheses, but after the initial learning process, you'll essentially be editing trees of code instead of fiddling with text! 2014-06-12T14:48:49Z Mirazi_Heket: please take a look http://codepad.org/a4949GgY 2014-06-12T14:49:00Z Mirazi_Heket: i need to force input to real instead of integer somehow 2014-06-12T14:49:51Z vraid: Mirazi_Heket: no, your problem is that you take the square root of a negative number, getting an imaginary number 2014-06-12T14:50:21Z taylanub: it would be great if the code was in conventional Scheme style 2014-06-12T14:50:48Z vraid: taylanub: that does sound good 2014-06-12T14:52:26Z taylanub: and tip: (< x (some long thing)) will read better than (>= (some long thing) x) 2014-06-12T14:52:57Z taylanub is the master of style-nitpicking :P 2014-06-12T14:53:09Z xyh joined #scheme 2014-06-12T14:56:05Z langmartin joined #scheme 2014-06-12T14:57:17Z langmartin quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-12T15:01:01Z bjz quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2014-06-12T15:01:22Z sroy_ quit (Quit: Quitte) 2014-06-12T15:02:18Z sroy joined #scheme 2014-06-12T15:02:25Z Mirazi_Heket: but ("nie mozna policzyc pierwiastka") is as else 2014-06-12T15:02:55Z Mirazi_Heket: ("cant count sqrt from <0") 2014-06-12T15:02:57Z Mirazi_Heket: something like 2014-06-12T15:03:16Z spaceotter joined #scheme 2014-06-12T15:04:12Z developernotes joined #scheme 2014-06-12T15:04:41Z taylanub: Mirazi_Heket: the function >= complains that it didn't get a real number (because it got an imaginary number) 2014-06-12T15:04:49Z Mirazi_Heket: ah understood 2014-06-12T15:05:48Z cbsw joined #scheme 2014-06-12T15:06:03Z arrubin joined #scheme 2014-06-12T15:07:23Z FracV quit (Quit: leaving) 2014-06-12T15:08:01Z Mirazi_Heket: http://codepad.org/OAfZ0hzc 2014-06-12T15:08:12Z Mirazi_Heket: now it puts error, because dont want to return string 2014-06-12T15:08:36Z vraid: Mirazi_Heket: strings are written without parentheses 2014-06-12T15:08:40Z taylanub: Mirazi_Heket: when you do ("foo") that tries to call the string "foo" as if it were a procedure 2014-06-12T15:12:36Z kazimir42 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-12T15:14:27Z pjdelport: Mirazi_Heket: With more standard formatting: http://codepad.org/PRJSNHQd 2014-06-12T15:16:25Z Mirazi_Heket: thanks 2014-06-12T15:17:15Z `^_^v quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2014-06-12T15:26:31Z Mirazi_Heket: http://codepad.org/aKfPJZe7 any way to add string on output like "mark: 2.0" (punkty = points)? 2014-06-12T15:26:50Z Mirazi_Heket: so function would return string+int 2014-06-12T15:26:53Z Mirazi_Heket: (or real) 2014-06-12T15:27:58Z vraid: Mirazi_Heket: http://codepad.org/HYk77SVM 2014-06-12T15:28:15Z wingo quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2014-06-12T15:28:27Z vraid: Mirazi_Heket: alt. http://codepad.org/tVi6lLFH 2014-06-12T15:28:27Z Riastradh quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-06-12T15:28:29Z Mirazi_Heket: is it possible to do that in function ocena? 2014-06-12T15:28:41Z vraid: sure 2014-06-12T15:28:58Z vraid: wrap the cond in a number->string 2014-06-12T15:29:20Z Mirazi_Heket: is it possible to convert whole cond this way? 2014-06-12T15:29:31Z Mirazi_Heket: or cond "if" return only 2014-06-12T15:29:32Z vraid: yes, that's what it will do 2014-06-12T15:29:36Z Mirazi_Heket: ok 2014-06-12T15:30:19Z yacks joined #scheme 2014-06-12T15:42:46Z wingo joined #scheme 2014-06-12T15:44:06Z hkBst joined #scheme 2014-06-12T15:47:37Z hkBst quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-12T15:48:45Z `^_^v joined #scheme 2014-06-12T15:50:04Z pnkfelix quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-12T15:50:49Z pnkfelix joined #scheme 2014-06-12T15:57:43Z theseb joined #scheme 2014-06-12T15:58:29Z racycle joined #scheme 2014-06-12T16:09:13Z vishesh joined #scheme 2014-06-12T16:12:37Z jim quit (Excess Flood) 2014-06-12T16:12:56Z jim joined #scheme 2014-06-12T16:13:26Z turbofail quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2014-06-12T16:14:44Z vraid quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2014-06-12T16:22:45Z Mirazi_Heket: is there opposite to null? 2014-06-12T16:23:42Z przl quit (Quit: leaving) 2014-06-12T16:25:10Z wingo quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-12T16:26:05Z Mirazi_Heket left #scheme 2014-06-12T16:28:55Z oleo: t ? 2014-06-12T16:29:12Z oleo: oww wait truth values in scheme..... 2014-06-12T16:29:25Z oleo: null means empty mostly.... 2014-06-12T16:29:47Z oleo: at least i get it that way... 2014-06-12T16:30:16Z oleo: in cl i mean.... dunno about scheme ..... 2014-06-12T16:31:44Z pjdelport: pair? 2014-06-12T16:34:48Z ASau joined #scheme 2014-06-12T16:36:33Z b4283 quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2014-06-12T16:37:36Z aranhoide joined #scheme 2014-06-12T16:40:15Z jusss quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-12T16:45:59Z Nizumzen joined #scheme 2014-06-12T16:51:36Z spaceotter quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2014-06-12T16:52:46Z pnkfelix quit (Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 24.3.1) 2014-06-12T16:52:54Z Riastradh joined #scheme 2014-06-12T16:53:29Z spaceotter joined #scheme 2014-06-12T16:53:37Z hiroakip joined #scheme 2014-06-12T16:54:02Z vraid joined #scheme 2014-06-12T17:02:42Z cbsw quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-06-12T17:05:05Z hiroakip quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-06-12T17:05:09Z xyh left #scheme 2014-06-12T17:12:30Z FracV joined #scheme 2014-06-12T17:15:49Z phax quit (Quit: phax) 2014-06-12T17:16:17Z phax joined #scheme 2014-06-12T17:17:59Z hiroakip joined #scheme 2014-06-12T17:25:54Z REPLeffect joined #scheme 2014-06-12T17:29:20Z developernotes quit (Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2014-06-12T17:30:56Z daviid joined #scheme 2014-06-12T17:45:05Z AkashicLegend quit (Quit: AkashicLegend) 2014-06-12T17:50:01Z turbofail joined #scheme 2014-06-12T17:53:59Z rszeno joined #scheme 2014-06-12T17:55:14Z Nizumzen quit (Quit: KVIrc 4.2.0 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/) 2014-06-12T17:56:44Z theseb quit (Quit: Leaving) 2014-06-12T17:59:21Z amgarchIn9 joined #scheme 2014-06-12T18:03:54Z Mirazi_Heket joined #scheme 2014-06-12T18:04:01Z Mirazi_Heket: could you take a look 2014-06-12T18:04:02Z Mirazi_Heket: http://codepad.org/92SP86MH 2014-06-12T18:05:47Z rszeno quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2014-06-12T18:06:45Z vraid: Mirazi_Heket: you should call which in the definition of show 2014-06-12T18:07:00Z vraid: right now there's just a definition, and the function show has no body 2014-06-12T18:07:41Z vraid: oh, nvm, the formatting threw me off 2014-06-12T18:08:42Z vraid: Mirazi_Heket: the if expression isn't correct 2014-06-12T18:09:09Z Mirazi_Heket: ah yes 2014-06-12T18:09:15Z Mirazi_Heket: i see where mistake might be 2014-06-12T18:11:04Z Mirazi_Heket: http://codepad.org/gp0mBaLf still got error 2014-06-12T18:13:53Z akshatj is now known as popat2002 2014-06-12T18:14:29Z vraid: rudybot: (cdr '()) 2014-06-12T18:14:30Z rudybot: vraid: error: cdr: contract violation expected: pair? given: '() 2014-06-12T18:16:09Z popat2002 is now known as akshatj 2014-06-12T18:16:18Z developernotes joined #scheme 2014-06-12T18:19:01Z fantazo joined #scheme 2014-06-12T18:20:11Z ASau quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-06-12T18:22:27Z developernotes quit (Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com) 2014-06-12T18:22:44Z developernotes joined #scheme 2014-06-12T18:23:30Z akshatj is now known as kittyrandi 2014-06-12T18:28:09Z Mirazi_Heket: please take a look 2014-06-12T18:28:10Z Mirazi_Heket: http://codepad.org/m5LAeg7T 2014-06-12T18:28:52Z aranhoide quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-06-12T18:29:25Z vraid: ((+ which 1) (show n (cdr list))) isn't correct 2014-06-12T18:29:57Z hiroakip quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2014-06-12T18:31:17Z joneshf-laptop quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2014-06-12T18:31:36Z vraid: the () expect a procedure, but are given (+ which 1), equalling 2 2014-06-12T18:31:53Z vraid: so, it's doing (2 (show n (cdr list))) 2014-06-12T18:33:49Z vraaid joined #scheme 2014-06-12T18:34:06Z hiyosi quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2014-06-12T18:36:19Z vraid quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-12T18:37:59Z kittyrandi is now known as akdhatj 2014-06-12T18:42:41Z pera joined #scheme 2014-06-12T18:43:14Z Mirazi_Heket: (else 2014-06-12T18:43:15Z Mirazi_Heket: ((+ which 1) (show n (cdr list)))) 2014-06-12T18:43:29Z Mirazi_Heket: how to increment which and call function recursive? 2014-06-12T18:44:54Z hiroakip joined #scheme 2014-06-12T18:47:10Z z0d quit (*.net *.split) 2014-06-12T18:47:10Z brendyn quit (*.net *.split) 2014-06-12T18:57:56Z brendyn joined #scheme 2014-06-12T19:00:13Z hiyosi joined #scheme 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2014-06-12T19:27:55Z jewel quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-12T19:36:25Z Mirazi_Heket: could someone check http://codepad.org/w0n5Sl3D? 2014-06-12T19:37:29Z pchrist quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-06-12T19:37:40Z wingo quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-12T19:38:28Z pchrist joined #scheme 2014-06-12T19:41:41Z phax quit (Quit: phax) 2014-06-12T19:41:46Z aftershave quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.) 2014-06-12T19:43:56Z altphi joined #scheme 2014-06-12T19:44:21Z Mirazi_Heket: how to make 2 things in cond: increment value and recursive call function? 2014-06-12T19:45:36Z phax joined #scheme 2014-06-12T19:52:53Z z0d: with progn? 2014-06-12T19:53:22Z z0d: well, cond is implicit progn, right? 2014-06-12T19:53:58Z z0d: rudybot: r6rs cond 2014-06-12T19:54:00Z rudybot: z0d: there is a cond missing no? 2014-06-12T19:54:04Z z0d: rudybot: r5rs cond 2014-06-12T19:54:04Z rudybot: z0d: (define build-list (lambda (x y) (cond ((eq? y '()) '()) (else (append (list (cons (car y) (car x))) (build-list suit (cdr y))))))) 2014-06-12T19:56:32Z z0d: http://www.r6rs.org/final/html/r6rs/r6rs-Z-H-14.html#node_sec_11.4.5 2014-06-12T20:00:55Z hiyosi joined #scheme 2014-06-12T20:01:59Z rszeno joined #scheme 2014-06-12T20:02:13Z racycle quit (Quit: ZZZzzz…) 2014-06-12T20:03:55Z LostDatagram quit (Quit: Bye :P - znc.in) 2014-06-12T20:04:20Z LostDatagram joined #scheme 2014-06-12T20:06:17Z hiyosi quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-06-12T20:07:33Z Mirazi_Heket: http://codepad.org/hcYZRrkg 2014-06-12T20:07:42Z Mirazi_Heket: need to correct that 2014-06-12T20:08:09Z taylanub: Mirazi_Heket: you really need to write in conventional Scheme style, otherwise that code is unreadable 2014-06-12T20:08:51Z Mirazi_Heket: i agree it could be better 2014-06-12T20:09:06Z taylanub: it will also make the bugs apparent 2014-06-12T20:09:30Z Mirazi_Heket: not for me... 2014-06-12T20:09:38Z oleo__ joined #scheme 2014-06-12T20:09:38Z oleo is now known as Guest10179 2014-06-12T20:09:43Z oleo__ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-06-12T20:09:45Z taylanub: you seem to have the misconception that Scheme uses parentheses for grouping expressions like some languages do with {}, Scheme doesn't do that 2014-06-12T20:09:56Z Mirazi_Heket: um, all in one line? 2014-06-12T20:10:05Z taylanub: ? 2014-06-12T20:10:09Z taylanub: what I'm saying is .. 2014-06-12T20:10:35Z taylanub: for example the if syntax goes (if ), and not something like (if ( ) ( )) or anything 2014-06-12T20:10:43Z Guest10179 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-12T20:10:59Z taylanub: so (if foo ( (if ...) )) is wrong 2014-06-12T20:11:44Z taylanub: (well, it could also be correct code, but it would mean something different than what you think) 2014-06-12T20:11:46Z oleo__ joined #scheme 2014-06-12T20:11:50Z oleo__ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-06-12T20:12:35Z taylanub: Mirazi_Heket: if you format that code in correct Scheme style, I'm sure you'll have an easier time seeing the mistakes 2014-06-12T20:12:59Z Mirazi_Heket: it is : if , otherwise i put () 2014-06-12T20:13:06Z oleo joined #scheme 2014-06-12T20:13:11Z taylanub: no, you can't use () like that 2014-06-12T20:13:28Z taylanub: for that you can use the `begin' syntax: (begin ...) 2014-06-12T20:14:09Z Mirazi_Heket: good to know, how can i make "counter" integer variable inside function? 2014-06-12T20:14:10Z taylanub: using () always means that you either "use" some special syntax (if, cond, begin, lambda, etc.), or call a macro, or call a procedure (function) 2014-06-12T20:14:11Z Mirazi_Heket: in simple way 2014-06-12T20:14:19Z Mirazi_Heket: actually i have (define which 0) 2014-06-12T20:14:36Z taylanub: (define (my-function) 2014-06-12T20:14:36Z taylanub: (let ((counter 0)) 2014-06-12T20:14:36Z taylanub: ...)) 2014-06-12T20:15:00Z taylanub: by the way (+ foo 1) is *not* going to change the value of foo 2014-06-12T20:15:37Z taylanub: it just calls the '+' procedure on the values of foo and 1 2014-06-12T20:16:21Z Mirazi_Heket: ok thanks, will correct that 2014-06-12T20:16:28Z Mirazi_Heket: (let ((counter 0))0) this way? only compilable way 2014-06-12T20:17:24Z taylanub: I don't understand that question 2014-06-12T20:18:09Z eMBee quit (*.net *.split) 2014-06-12T20:18:20Z Nizumzen quit (Quit: KVIrc 4.2.0 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/) 2014-06-12T20:18:24Z Mirazi_Heket: (let ((counter 0))0) is this correct way to use and declare counter inside function? 2014-06-12T20:18:35Z eMBee joined #scheme 2014-06-12T20:19:29Z taylanub: no, the let syntax works like: (let (( ) ( ...), and the given variables will be bound to the given values during the execution of those expressions 2014-06-12T20:20:28Z Mirazi_Heket: so i will skip that, wanted something more simple 2014-06-12T20:21:17Z taylanub: you can also do (define counter 0) in the function-body, but using let is very common in Scheme and usually the correct choice 2014-06-12T20:21:55Z taylanub: you can have a bunch of (define ...) expressions at the beginning of a function body, but it's actually just translated to a usage of the 'letrec' syntax 2014-06-12T20:22:20Z rszeno: what can be more simple? 2014-06-12T20:22:31Z Mirazi_Heket: than let? define... 2014-06-12T20:22:54Z Mirazi_Heket: well i got used to c++ stuff 2014-06-12T20:23:01Z Mirazi_Heket: and i could say its not programmer friendly 2014-06-12T20:23:11Z Mirazi_Heket: http://codepad.org/mUXhTorq somewhere i got error 2014-06-12T20:23:12Z rszeno: think to let like assigment 2014-06-12T20:23:40Z Mirazi_Heket: yes but let needs to have something to do with that value, it cannot be just declared... 2014-06-12T20:24:24Z taylanub: Mirazi_Heket: C++ is probably one of the least programmer-friendly languages, and you probably don't know C++ very well .. just guessing 2014-06-12T20:25:05Z Mirazi_Heket: i wont judge for now... its meaningless 2014-06-12T20:25:06Z rszeno: int counter = 0; is same as (let ((counter 0))....what you do with counter here ) 2014-06-12T20:25:27Z Mirazi_Heket: yes but i cannot skip that last part... 2014-06-12T20:25:36Z rszeno: what part? 2014-06-12T20:25:37Z Mirazi_Heket: so (+ counter 1)? 2014-06-12T20:26:01Z Mirazi_Heket: (let ((counter 0)) (+ counter 1))? 2014-06-12T20:26:35Z taylanub: that expression would return 1 2014-06-12T20:26:53Z Mirazi_Heket: not sure how, would like to increment counter 2014-06-12T20:27:22Z taylanub: to change a variable, you have to use "set!" 2014-06-12T20:27:33Z taylanub: it's generally discouraged because Scheme mostly idealizes "functional programming" 2014-06-12T20:28:11Z Mirazi_Heket: ok 2014-06-12T20:29:31Z rszeno: is another way think, c++, imperative vs. functional 2014-06-12T20:29:31Z LostDatagram quit (Quit: Bye :P - znc.in) 2014-06-12T20:29:43Z taylanub: Mirazi_Heket: you should probably read some introductory Scheme book/tutorial/whatever 2014-06-12T20:29:54Z amgarchIn9 quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-06-12T20:29:58Z Mirazi_Heket: if i would have time 2014-06-12T20:30:06Z Mirazi_Heket: soon going to sleep 2014-06-12T20:30:06Z taylanub: I somehow ended up learning Lisp/Scheme without ever doing that but don't ask me how 2014-06-12T20:30:08Z Mirazi_Heket: but tomorrow 2014-06-12T20:30:38Z Mirazi_Heket: ok last thing, do you have any idea what's wrong? http://codepad.org/zm0cFpN2 2014-06-12T20:30:59Z taylanub: more than one thing 2014-06-12T20:31:15Z Mirazi_Heket: yes as i suppose 2014-06-12T20:31:23Z taylanub: first of all, you don't call functions like foo(bar), you call them like (foo bar) 2014-06-12T20:31:26Z wilfredh joined #scheme 2014-06-12T20:31:54Z taylanub: secondly, (+ foo bar) does *not* change the value of foo 2014-06-12T20:32:02Z Mirazi_Heket: did that correction http://codepad.org/PiAnXV3j 2014-06-12T20:32:11Z LostDatagram joined #scheme 2014-06-12T20:32:11Z LostDatagram quit (Excess Flood) 2014-06-12T20:32:27Z Mirazi_Heket: what should i use for that? not sure if set! would handle that 2014-06-12T20:32:40Z taylanub: thirdly, but this isn't really a bug, the `else' branch of a `cond' expression can already take a sequence of expressions, you don't need that `begin' there (though it works too) 2014-06-12T20:32:41Z LostDatagram joined #scheme 2014-06-12T20:32:41Z LostDatagram quit (Excess Flood) 2014-06-12T20:33:11Z LostDatagram joined #scheme 2014-06-12T20:33:11Z LostDatagram quit (Excess Flood) 2014-06-12T20:33:30Z taylanub: Mirazi_Heket: looks like you want to pass an incremented value of "counter" to every recursive call of the function, right? 2014-06-12T20:33:37Z Mirazi_Heket: indeed 2014-06-12T20:33:37Z ASau joined #scheme 2014-06-12T20:33:41Z LostDatagram joined #scheme 2014-06-12T20:33:41Z LostDatagram quit (Excess Flood) 2014-06-12T20:33:51Z taylanub: then you can't define counter in the function 2014-06-12T20:34:11Z LostDatagram joined #scheme 2014-06-12T20:34:11Z LostDatagram quit (Excess Flood) 2014-06-12T20:34:11Z Mirazi_Heket: ok, moved outside 2014-06-12T20:34:18Z Mirazi_Heket: @lostdatagram lol 2014-06-12T20:34:41Z LostDatagram joined #scheme 2014-06-12T20:34:41Z LostDatagram quit (Excess Flood) 2014-06-12T20:34:45Z taylanub: this is actually the same in C++ as you probably know, when you have a function like 'void foo(){ int my_int; my_int += 1; ... }', then "my_int" will not increase more and more as you call foo() 2014-06-12T20:35:01Z Mirazi_Heket: yeah ;/ 2014-06-12T20:35:04Z taylanub: Mirazi_Heket: you could move it outside, but then it's simply a global 2014-06-12T20:35:11Z LostDatagram joined #scheme 2014-06-12T20:35:11Z LostDatagram quit (Excess Flood) 2014-06-12T20:35:44Z taylanub: what you could do is (but this is still broken): 2014-06-12T20:35:44Z taylanub: (define show 2014-06-12T20:35:45Z taylanub: (let ((counter 0)) 2014-06-12T20:35:45Z taylanub: (lambda (n list) 2014-06-12T20:35:45Z LostDatagram joined #scheme 2014-06-12T20:35:46Z LostDatagram quit (Excess Flood) 2014-06-12T20:35:48Z taylanub: ))) 2014-06-12T20:36:00Z taylanub: then "counter" will work like a "static" variable in C++ 2014-06-12T20:36:06Z taylanub: but that's not what you want either 2014-06-12T20:36:41Z LostDatagram joined #scheme 2014-06-12T20:36:41Z LostDatagram quit (Excess Flood) 2014-06-12T20:36:51Z taylanub: if you really want to write this function recursively I can tell you how, but it's the wrong approach anyway 2014-06-12T20:37:11Z LostDatagram joined #scheme 2014-06-12T20:37:15Z Mirazi_Heket: there is no need to do this recursively 2014-06-12T20:37:24Z Mirazi_Heket: just working way :) 2014-06-12T20:38:05Z taylanub: you can use the 'do' syntax for iteration, though it's a bit complicated to use 2014-06-12T20:38:41Z taylanub: an alternative that I often find easier to write is to use "named let" but for that you'll first need to grasp what normal "let" does 2014-06-12T20:39:59Z Mirazi_Heket: sigh 2014-06-12T20:40:07Z Mirazi_Heket: will visit tommorow 2014-06-12T20:40:09Z Mirazi_Heket: its night here 2014-06-12T20:40:12Z Mirazi_Heket: im too sleepy 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google knows no easy answer 2014-06-13T05:57:31Z aftershave quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.) 2014-06-13T06:00:09Z frkout_ joined #scheme 2014-06-13T06:00:26Z Mirazi_Heket: please take a look http://codepad.org/zDLMVuQK 2014-06-13T06:02:28Z Mirazi_Heket: fixed http://codepad.org/wt7KDAwV 2014-06-13T06:02:32Z Mirazi_Heket: almost... 2014-06-13T06:03:03Z frkout quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-13T06:07:49Z aftershave joined #scheme 2014-06-13T06:10:27Z BitPuffin joined #scheme 2014-06-13T06:11:17Z djr quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2014-06-13T06:17:43Z vraaaid joined #scheme 2014-06-13T06:20:15Z vraaid quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2014-06-13T06:21:36Z daviid quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2014-06-13T06:24:38Z gnomon quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-13T06:27:04Z evhan joined #scheme 2014-06-13T06:36:18Z Mirazi_Heket left #scheme 2014-06-13T06:38:53Z hiyosi joined #scheme 2014-06-13T06:40:51Z kazimir42 joined #scheme 2014-06-13T06:44:04Z gnomon joined #scheme 2014-06-13T06:44:18Z hiyosi quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-06-13T06:51:57Z aftershave quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.) 2014-06-13T06:53:48Z aftershave joined #scheme 2014-06-13T07:08:08Z jusss joined #scheme 2014-06-13T07:22:42Z george2 quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-06-13T07:24:35Z george2 joined #scheme 2014-06-13T07:34:22Z mrowe is now known as mrowe_away 2014-06-13T07:36:02Z ASau quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-06-13T07:39:54Z george2 quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2014-06-13T07:41:37Z wingo joined #scheme 2014-06-13T07:45:43Z george2 joined #scheme 2014-06-13T08:10:16Z jusss quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2014-06-13T08:12:04Z Riastrad1 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-13T08:12:17Z Riastradh joined #scheme 2014-06-13T08:17:19Z safety quit (Quit: Linkinus - http://linkinus.com) 2014-06-13T08:21:26Z vraid joined #scheme 2014-06-13T08:24:00Z vraaaid quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2014-06-13T08:24:43Z taylanub: rudybot: do you support "later tell"? 2014-06-13T08:24:44Z rudybot: taylanub: later tell foof perhaps you mean "cp -r lib/* $(DESTDIR)$(MODDIR)/" during chibi-scheme install (as it is now it isn't finding init.scm in $(MODDIR)/lib) 2014-06-13T08:25:09Z taylanub: rudybot: later tell taylanub hi there 2014-06-13T08:25:10Z rudybot: taylanub: I asked `MemoServ' to forward the message to taylanub. 2014-06-13T08:37:41Z rtra quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2014-06-13T08:40:41Z hiyosi joined #scheme 2014-06-13T08:40:54Z cbsw joined #scheme 2014-06-13T08:42:16Z frkout_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-13T08:42:52Z frkout joined #scheme 2014-06-13T08:43:51Z zajn quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-13T08:44:37Z rtra joined #scheme 2014-06-13T08:44:54Z aftershave quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.) 2014-06-13T08:45:04Z hiyosi quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-13T08:50:15Z civodul joined #scheme 2014-06-13T09:02:20Z aftershave joined #scheme 2014-06-13T09:20:42Z yacks quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2014-06-13T09:24:47Z cbsw quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-06-13T09:30:46Z yacks joined #scheme 2014-06-13T09:41:22Z hiyosi joined #scheme 2014-06-13T09:42:49Z taylanub quit (Disconnected by services) 2014-06-13T09:43:09Z taylanub joined #scheme 2014-06-13T09:46:11Z hiyosi quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-13T09:46:49Z cbsw joined #scheme 2014-06-13T09:56:37Z jusss joined #scheme 2014-06-13T09:56:42Z jusss quit (Changing host) 2014-06-13T09:56:42Z jusss joined #scheme 2014-06-13T09:59:00Z frkout_ joined #scheme 2014-06-13T10:02:17Z frkout quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2014-06-13T10:05:02Z jaaqo joined #scheme 2014-06-13T10:11:52Z cbsw quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-06-13T10:18:28Z peted joined #scheme 2014-06-13T10:20:12Z cbsw joined #scheme 2014-06-13T10:20:13Z peted_ quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-06-13T10:21:13Z ELLIOTTCABLE joined #scheme 2014-06-13T10:22:43Z peted quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-06-13T10:23:58Z peted joined #scheme 2014-06-13T10:24:22Z cbsw quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-06-13T10:25:27Z cbsw joined #scheme 2014-06-13T10:30:23Z ANGRYSTEVE joined #scheme 2014-06-13T10:31:03Z jusss: pjb: (define add1 3) (set! add1 (lambda (s) (((lambda (s) (lambda (x) (+ x s))) 1) s))) 2014-06-13T10:31:24Z jusss: pjb: (add1 9) -> 10 2014-06-13T10:32:43Z jusss: its right in scheme 2014-06-13T10:33:51Z pjb: Good. Problem solved. 2014-06-13T10:33:55Z altphi joined #scheme 2014-06-13T10:37:06Z jusss: its from a code of newlisp 2014-06-13T10:37:22Z pjb: newlisp is a horrible language. Forget it. 2014-06-13T10:37:44Z pjb: Contrarily to its name it's a very oldish and outdated lisp. 2014-06-13T10:37:52Z jusss: (define (addn s) (lambda (x) (+ x s))) 2014-06-13T10:38:09Z jusss: (define (add1 s) ((addn 1) s)) 2014-06-13T10:38:20Z jusss: (add1 4) -> ? 2014-06-13T10:39:02Z pjb: rudybot: (define (addn s) (lambda (x) (+ x s))) 2014-06-13T10:39:06Z rudybot: pjb: Done. 2014-06-13T10:39:29Z pjb: ; Value: 5 2014-06-13T10:42:15Z hiyosi joined #scheme 2014-06-13T10:44:54Z jusss_ joined #scheme 2014-06-13T10:46:33Z hiyosi quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-13T10:47:32Z jusss quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2014-06-13T10:49:00Z pnkfelix joined #scheme 2014-06-13T10:54:17Z b4283 quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2014-06-13T11:05:53Z jusss_ is now known as juss 2014-06-13T11:09:41Z peted_ joined #scheme 2014-06-13T11:12:09Z peted quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2014-06-13T11:12:11Z altphi quit (Quit: somno opus est.) 2014-06-13T11:29:43Z altphi joined #scheme 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2014-06-13T15:29:28Z pjdelport: That's just local scope, not lexical scope, surely? 2014-06-13T15:31:52Z aftershave quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.) 2014-06-13T15:35:26Z jeapostrophe quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2014-06-13T15:41:10Z wilfredh joined #scheme 2014-06-13T15:43:34Z aftershave joined #scheme 2014-06-13T15:44:46Z f-a joined #scheme 2014-06-13T15:46:25Z hiyosi joined #scheme 2014-06-13T15:51:28Z civodul quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-13T15:51:30Z hiyosi quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-06-13T15:53:10Z jcowan quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2014-06-13T15:53:13Z langmartin joined #scheme 2014-06-13T15:55:16Z phax joined #scheme 2014-06-13T15:58:49Z jcowan joined #scheme 2014-06-13T15:59:24Z racycle joined #scheme 2014-06-13T16:01:27Z hiroakip quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2014-06-13T16:03:07Z altphi quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-06-13T16:04:26Z rszeno quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2014-06-13T16:06:07Z altphi joined #scheme 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2014-06-13T16:33:45Z altphi quit (Quit: somno opus est.) 2014-06-13T16:35:36Z b4283 joined #scheme 2014-06-13T16:40:00Z Riastradh joined #scheme 2014-06-13T16:41:19Z cbsw quit (Quit: cbsw) 2014-06-13T16:46:35Z hiroakip quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2014-06-13T16:49:18Z REPLeffect quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-13T16:53:25Z altphi joined #scheme 2014-06-13T16:59:51Z REPLeffect joined #scheme 2014-06-13T17:01:42Z sak joined #scheme 2014-06-13T17:03:12Z acarrico quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2014-06-13T17:09:53Z leppie quit 2014-06-13T17:10:03Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2014-06-13T17:13:00Z b4283 quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2014-06-13T17:14:08Z b4283 joined #scheme 2014-06-13T17:14:54Z sak quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-06-13T17:18:16Z jcowan: pjdelport: True. But it's possible to do so in newLisp, you just have to explicitly mention the namespace of non-local variables. 2014-06-13T17:20:04Z pjdelport: jcowan: How does that work again? It's been quite a while since I've looked at newLisp 2014-06-13T17:20:25Z jcowan: I don't remember either, I just remember concluding that it's possible. 2014-06-13T17:20:33Z f-a left #scheme 2014-06-13T17:24:12Z amgarchIn9 joined #scheme 2014-06-13T17:26:31Z leppie joined #scheme 2014-06-13T17:27:35Z sak joined #scheme 2014-06-13T17:27:59Z pjdelport: It sounds like you explicitly have to pass all the outer contexts around as parameters, then. 2014-06-13T17:28:11Z pjdelport: If I read this right. 2014-06-13T17:29:29Z pnkfelix joined #scheme 2014-06-13T17:29:46Z sak is now known as ulysses-sl 2014-06-13T17:30:04Z pnkfelix quit (Client Quit) 2014-06-13T17:30:10Z Fare joined #scheme 2014-06-13T17:34:58Z przl joined #scheme 2014-06-13T17:36:47Z altphi quit (Quit: somno opus est.) 2014-06-13T17:37:28Z rszeno joined #scheme 2014-06-13T17:41:23Z pera quit (Quit: leaving) 2014-06-13T17:47:59Z hiyosi joined #scheme 2014-06-13T17:49:39Z amgarchIn9 quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 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I come from haskell, I would like to learn scheme. Will reading an R*RS do? 2014-06-15T14:44:36Z jusss quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-15T14:44:47Z jeapostr1phe quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-15T14:44:51Z jusss` is now known as jusss 2014-06-15T14:45:19Z jusss quit (Changing host) 2014-06-15T14:45:19Z jusss joined #scheme 2014-06-15T14:46:49Z pjdelport: f-a: If you're already very familiar with functional programming in general, RnRS is probably a good way to get up to speed. 2014-06-15T14:47:09Z f-a: thanks 2014-06-15T14:47:29Z pjdelport: If you want to learn concepts, SICP is one of the canonical textbooks. 2014-06-15T14:47:51Z arrubin: There is also http://www.scheme.com/tspl4/, which is quite good. 2014-06-15T14:48:02Z pjdelport: The links in the topic are worth checking out. 2014-06-15T14:49:36Z f-a: thanks! 2014-06-15T14:50:47Z pjdelport: Do you have any specific goals, or questions? 2014-06-15T14:53:11Z f-a: Well, I am quite used to functional programming (haskell is purely functional), the idea was to try something slightly different (dynamic typed/ macros). I would like to eventually make some simple programs out of it (example: in my spare time I program simple ASCII games) 2014-06-15T14:53:50Z f-a: I started HTDP, but to be honest I felt it was a bit "slow" for my needs. 2014-06-15T14:54:52Z f-a: naively enough, I was lured into scheme by its syntax 2014-06-15T14:55:51Z pjdelport: You'll finde the syntax-rules macro system quite familiar, coming from Haskell. 2014-06-15T14:56:02Z pjdelport: It's based on pattern matching. :) 2014-06-15T14:56:59Z pjdelport: R5RS may be a quick read for you: http://www.schemers.org/Documents/Standards/R5RS/HTML/ 2014-06-15T14:57:13Z pjdelport: It's fairly compact, and well-written. 2014-06-15T14:57:43Z f-a: thanks, do you think I should read it before r6rs? (or even r7rs beta?) 2014-06-15T14:58:32Z pjdelport: Maybe; R6RS gets more complicated with modules and libraries and whatnot. R5RS is perhaps more self-contained, and still very relevant. 2014-06-15T14:58:40Z f-a: cheers 2014-06-15T14:59:12Z pjdelport: (Disclaimer: I learned mainly from R5RS, and haven't really followed 6 and 7 all that closely.) 2014-06-15T14:59:44Z pjdelport: f-a: Aside from macros, the other main thing you'll probably be learning is first-class continuations. 2014-06-15T15:01:06Z pjdelport: You have standard undelimited continuations with call/cc, and also a range of delimited continuations in various implementations and libraries. They play a more salient role than you'll find in Haskell. 2014-06-15T15:04:26Z masm quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2014-06-15T15:07:31Z peted_ joined #scheme 2014-06-15T15:09:52Z peted quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2014-06-15T15:09:52Z matheus23 joined #scheme 2014-06-15T15:11:43Z guampa quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-15T15:12:31Z guampa joined #scheme 2014-06-15T15:12:35Z phax joined #scheme 2014-06-15T15:15:48Z DrDuck quit (Quit: Page closed) 2014-06-15T15:26:41Z przl joined #scheme 2014-06-15T15:40:30Z gravicappa quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2014-06-15T15:41:11Z MichaelRaskin joined #scheme 2014-06-15T15:41:58Z klltkr joined #scheme 2014-06-15T15:43:04Z taylanub: f-a: let me recommend reading R7RS-small instead of R5RS 2014-06-15T15:43:35Z taylanub: well, implementations might not support some things in it yet 2014-06-15T15:43:57Z rins quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-06-15T15:44:13Z taylanub: but it's basically an updated R5RS 2014-06-15T15:49:43Z jusss quit (Quit: ERC Version 5.2 (IRC client for Emacs)) 2014-06-15T15:50:51Z f-a: mhhh, let me see if I can find some r7rs stuff for debian 2014-06-15T16:04:48Z peted joined #scheme 2014-06-15T16:07:03Z peted_ quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2014-06-15T16:15:49Z DrDuck joined #scheme 2014-06-15T16:16:39Z DrDuck: I'm not sure if this is on the topic of scheme, but all the code in this blog post uses Scheme code. Does anyone know how to make pretty binary tree images like this guy made? http://matt.might.net/articles/red-black-delete/ 2014-06-15T16:26:12Z taylanub: DrDuck: email the author and ask them what they used? 2014-06-15T16:26:52Z DrDuck: :O 2014-06-15T16:26:59Z DrDuck: That's a good idea. 2014-06-15T16:33:25Z vraid joined #scheme 2014-06-15T16:33:32Z cbsw quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-06-15T16:42:36Z jeapostr1phe joined #scheme 2014-06-15T16:56:17Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-15T17:08:26Z phipes joined #scheme 2014-06-15T17:12:50Z b4283 quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2014-06-15T17:18:21Z pjb: DrDuck: you could use OmniGrafle. 2014-06-15T17:18:58Z pjb: Or just GraphViz. 2014-06-15T17:20:34Z f-a quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-15T17:21:34Z f-a joined #scheme 2014-06-15T17:22:39Z hiyosi quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2014-06-15T17:23:57Z jewel joined #scheme 2014-06-15T17:25:05Z DrDuck: pjb: Thanks. :D 2014-06-15T17:27:30Z daviid joined #scheme 2014-06-15T17:32:13Z amgarchIn9 joined #scheme 2014-06-15T17:32:31Z b4284 quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2014-06-15T17:33:18Z vraaid joined #scheme 2014-06-15T17:33:31Z vraid quit (Disconnected by services) 2014-06-15T17:33:35Z vraaid is now known as vraid 2014-06-15T17:49:15Z hiroakip joined #scheme 2014-06-15T17:51:21Z emma: DrDuck: are you Wei Hu? 2014-06-15T17:51:43Z DrDuck: emma: I'm not. 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The code is at http://paste.lisp.org/display/142897 , the defines are from the book, but the "executed" part is a simplification of the original code, I left the original code commented at the end. Any idea how could I fix the code? 2014-06-16T21:00:43Z FracV quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-16T21:03:20Z jim: the classical mechanics book? 2014-06-16T21:04:50Z alexei_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-16T21:04:51Z negtor: yes, the classical mechanics one. I first typed the code myself but then I tried copy/pasting just in case and still got the same error. The rest of the code before works fine, except from that part on page 43 2014-06-16T21:06:33Z vraid: negtor: how is 'up' defined? 2014-06-16T21:07:21Z jim: what is the meaning of (define ((s1 w2 s3) s4) ... )? 2014-06-16T21:07:57Z vraid: jim: (define s1 (lambda (w2 s3) (lambda (s4) 2014-06-16T21:09:03Z matheus23 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-16T21:09:11Z pawelbx quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-16T21:09:23Z pawelbx joined #scheme 2014-06-16T21:09:58Z negtor: vraid: 'up' is defined on the Scheme Mechanics package. It returns a tuple with the elements you pass to it, but I am not sure how much "magic" there's behind 2014-06-16T21:10:42Z Nizumzen quit (Quit: KVIrc 4.2.0 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/) 2014-06-16T21:11:02Z araujo quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-06-16T21:11:02Z fikusz quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-06-16T21:11:21Z vraid: so if 'nu' is a tuple of sin cos square 2014-06-16T21:11:35Z vraid: what is (nu t) in make-eta? 2014-06-16T21:11:36Z fikusz joined #scheme 2014-06-16T21:13:11Z negtor: vraid: it's supposed to be, apply the parameter t to the three functions and get a new tuple. I checked and the implementation of 'up' is: (named-lambda (up . args) (vector->column (list->vector args))) 2014-06-16T21:13:18Z araujo joined #scheme 2014-06-16T21:14:04Z jim: vraid, can you do that more generally, like, (define (s1 (s2 (s3 s4) s5 (s6 s7) s8) s9) ... )? 2014-06-16T21:15:24Z mrowe_away is now known as mrowe 2014-06-16T21:16:20Z jim is -really- unsure if that would have meaning and what it would be 2014-06-16T21:16:41Z jim: which version of scheme is that kind of thing defined in? 2014-06-16T21:16:50Z taylanub: would probably be limited to things of the form (((...) ...) ...) 2014-06-16T21:17:15Z taylanub: Guile 1.8 used to do it AFAIK, maybe there's an SRFI .. also shouldn't be hard to implement with syntax-rules 2014-06-16T21:19:03Z pjdelport: jim: Generally no. The examples like (define ((s1 w2 s3) s4) ... ) are more of a natural extension of how the define syntax itself is defined. 2014-06-16T21:19:45Z pjdelport: The Scheme standard doesn't require arbitrary nestings of () on the left to work that way, but a number of Scheme implementations allow it. 2014-06-16T21:20:03Z pjdelport: () in other positions is an entirely different thing, though. 2014-06-16T21:20:29Z pjdelport: And it's unlikely you'll find that implemented anywhere. 2014-06-16T21:21:40Z c3w joined #scheme 2014-06-16T21:21:43Z vraid: jim: what would (define (s1 (s2 (s3 s4)))) mean? 2014-06-16T21:22:10Z jim: I have no clue :) 2014-06-16T21:22:37Z jim: well for one there's no body 2014-06-16T21:23:34Z jim: I thought define would choke on no-body 2014-06-16T21:23:43Z jim: but if there was one, 2014-06-16T21:25:35Z vraid: jim: having the function name in the innermost parenthesis, and variables after, mirrors the way the function is applied later 2014-06-16T21:26:06Z vraid: (define (((f a) b) c) can be called as (((f x) y) z) later 2014-06-16T21:26:12Z negtor: ok, turned out that my error was from trying to do something like: (* 1.0 2.0 (nu 1.0)), fixed it as (* 1.0 (* 2.0 (nu 1.0))) 2014-06-16T21:26:14Z ASau` joined #scheme 2014-06-16T21:26:35Z LeoNerd: Mmmmm curry 2014-06-16T21:26:39Z LeoNerd just ate curry ;) 2014-06-16T21:27:23Z oleo is now known as Guest25428 2014-06-16T21:27:23Z negtor: I suppose the some of the magic of the Mechanics library broke down, because multiplying 3 numbers works fine, but with the 'up' tuple it doesn't 2014-06-16T21:28:28Z vraid: jim: in the same fashion, (define (g (f h)) doesn't make sense, because in calling (g (j k)), (j k) would be evaluated to a single argument 2014-06-16T21:28:39Z vraid: so you'd have (define (g m) 2014-06-16T21:28:52Z oleo__ joined #scheme 2014-06-16T21:29:37Z jim: and then call another func with a separate define (f something) 2014-06-16T21:30:28Z pjdelport: jim: The most logical interpretation of something like (define (s1 (s2 (s3 s4)))) would be implicit list unpacking. 2014-06-16T21:30:28Z jim: so you'd do that as two separate defines 2014-06-16T21:30:28Z ASau quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-06-16T21:30:58Z pjdelport: But that would be pretty bizarre and non-useful in the context of Scheme style. 2014-06-16T21:31:19Z Guest25428 quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2014-06-16T21:31:22Z pjdelport: Python had that, but they dropped it since version 3, because it just doesn't end up being useful. 2014-06-16T21:32:42Z jim: is there an unpacker already? something like (setlist (a b c) (1 2 3)) which boils down to (set! a 1) (set! b 2) (set! c 3) 2014-06-16T21:32:44Z jim: ? 2014-06-16T21:33:23Z turbofail: some schemes have a pattern matching form 2014-06-16T21:34:05Z turbofail: rudybot: (match '(1 2 3) ((a b c) c)) 2014-06-16T21:34:05Z rudybot: turbofail: your sandbox is ready 2014-06-16T21:34:05Z rudybot: turbofail: error: #:1:17: match: syntax error in pattern in: (a b c) 2014-06-16T21:34:12Z turbofail: rudybot: (match '(1 2 3) ((list a b c) c)) 2014-06-16T21:34:12Z rudybot: turbofail: ; Value: 3 2014-06-16T21:36:51Z kazimir42 quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-06-16T21:40:39Z jim: what's this sandbox thing rudybot mentions? 2014-06-16T21:41:38Z samth: jim: you can't delete the filesystem via rudybot 2014-06-16T21:41:51Z langmartin quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2014-06-16T21:41:55Z samth: rudybot: (delete-directory "/") 2014-06-16T21:41:56Z rudybot: samth: your sandbox is ready 2014-06-16T21:41:56Z rudybot: samth: error: delete-directory: `delete' access denied for / 2014-06-16T21:42:00Z samth: jim: like that 2014-06-16T21:42:34Z jim: also is it so multiple irc users can each have their own env? 2014-06-16T21:43:21Z hiroakip quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2014-06-16T21:44:19Z jim: turbofail, pjb, vraid, thanks 2014-06-16T21:44:33Z daviid joined #scheme 2014-06-16T21:45:02Z jim: samth, thanks too 2014-06-16T21:45:15Z guampa quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-06-16T21:45:20Z BitPuffin quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-16T21:46:24Z negtor quit (Quit: leaving) 2014-06-16T21:46:39Z samth: jim: yes 2014-06-16T21:47:03Z civodul quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-06-16T21:48:34Z mrowe is now known as mrowe_away 2014-06-16T21:49:41Z arbscht joined #scheme 2014-06-16T21:52:35Z guampa joined #scheme 2014-06-16T21:57:36Z hiroakip joined #scheme 2014-06-16T21:59:51Z davexunit quit (Quit: Later) 2014-06-16T22:06:49Z visualshock quit (Quit: Leaving) 2014-06-16T22:13:32Z aranhoide quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-06-16T22:16:15Z Sgeo joined #scheme 2014-06-16T22:16:53Z karswell joined #scheme 2014-06-16T22:17:51Z c74d quit (Quit: Upgrading IRC client…) 2014-06-16T22:28:01Z c74d joined #scheme 2014-06-16T22:28:46Z ASau` is now known as ASau 2014-06-16T22:33:14Z phax joined #scheme 2014-06-16T22:33:58Z racycle joined #scheme 2014-06-16T22:35:48Z phax quit (Client Quit) 2014-06-16T22:45:07Z effy quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2014-06-16T22:47:20Z fantazo quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-16T22:51:59Z hiroakip quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2014-06-16T22:56:42Z arrubin quit 2014-06-16T22:57:39Z jxv joined #scheme 2014-06-16T22:59:47Z hiroakip joined #scheme 2014-06-16T23:03:12Z joneshf-laptop quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-16T23:03:52Z joneshf-laptop joined #scheme 2014-06-16T23:04:40Z hiroakip quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-06-16T23:08:00Z phax joined #scheme 2014-06-16T23:15:34Z ovidnis joined #scheme 2014-06-16T23:16:49Z davexunit joined #scheme 2014-06-16T23:16:54Z davexunit quit (Changing host) 2014-06-16T23:16:54Z davexunit joined #scheme 2014-06-16T23:17:51Z robot-beethoven joined #scheme 2014-06-16T23:19:17Z mrowe_away is now known as mrowe 2014-06-16T23:27:33Z ovidnis quit (Quit: Leaving) 2014-06-16T23:27:45Z ovidnis joined #scheme 2014-06-16T23:29:57Z jxv quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2014-06-16T23:35:55Z offby1: jim: also limits on CPU usage, etc. Pretty much everything you'd want for running an evalulator that's open to the public. 2014-06-16T23:36:11Z jxv joined #scheme 2014-06-16T23:36:43Z offby1: if I recall correctly, it was originally developed in order to automatically run and test student's homework submissions: the professors didn't want the students to be able to crash the machine by handing in something nasty. 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(Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-18T16:16:26Z DrDuck joined #scheme 2014-06-18T16:17:57Z DrDuck: Hi, guys. I'm trying to understand the difference between what's required from part A and part C of 2.74 from SICP. They are both asking me to create a procedure for getting an employee's record, right? http://mitpress.mit.edu/sicp/full-text/book/book-Z-H-17.html#%_thm_2.74 2014-06-18T16:19:26Z vraid: DrDuck: the difference is that in a, it looks through one file, whereas in c it looks through a list of files 2014-06-18T16:19:42Z DrDuck: Ahh! 2014-06-18T16:19:54Z jewel quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-18T16:19:58Z DrDuck: vraid: thanks :D 2014-06-18T16:26:19Z b4283 quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2014-06-18T16:27:03Z DrDuck: vraid: I assume that by file in part A, they mean division. Like this: (get-record employee division) and in part C they mean just (get-record employee) that first searches each division for employee? 2014-06-18T16:31:20Z skeuomorf joined #scheme 2014-06-18T16:32:03Z Riastradh quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-06-18T16:34:59Z jim: wonder if I did this one 2014-06-18T16:35:37Z jeapostr1phe quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-06-18T16:37:16Z jusss__ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2014-06-18T16:37:52Z b4283 joined #scheme 2014-06-18T16:54:31Z kazimir42 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-18T16:58:03Z vraid quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-18T17:03:54Z jeapostr1phe joined #scheme 2014-06-18T17:05:57Z REPLeffect joined #scheme 2014-06-18T17:10:16Z kazimir42 joined #scheme 2014-06-18T17:11:46Z Okasu quit (Quit: Lost terminal) 2014-06-18T17:12:23Z Fare joined #scheme 2014-06-18T17:16:06Z rszeno quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2014-06-18T17:17:33Z DrDuck: jim: did you? 2014-06-18T17:18:23Z wingo quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2014-06-18T17:18:28Z matheus23 quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-06-18T17:21:37Z matheus23 joined #scheme 2014-06-18T17:26:19Z skeuomorf quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-18T17:27:46Z work_op joined #scheme 2014-06-18T17:29:11Z Riastradh joined #scheme 2014-06-18T17:29:19Z work_op: im using guile, and I like the idea of STM, is there an easy way to implement it, or maybe someplace i can learn more? 2014-06-18T17:29:24Z annodomini quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2014-06-18T17:30:02Z yacks quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2014-06-18T17:30:24Z vraid joined #scheme 2014-06-18T17:33:00Z annodomini joined #scheme 2014-06-18T17:33:49Z BitPuffin joined #scheme 2014-06-18T17:34:20Z altphi quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-18T17:36:22Z altphi joined #scheme 2014-06-18T17:39:15Z Riastradh quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-06-18T17:43:32Z fridim_ quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-06-18T17:50:41Z davexunit: work_op: what's STM again? 2014-06-18T17:53:30Z BitPuffin quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2014-06-18T17:54:26Z b4283 quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2014-06-18T17:56:32Z pjdelport: davexunit: Software Transactional Memory, presumably 2014-06-18T17:57:41Z davexunit: oh okay. 2014-06-18T17:57:43Z davexunit: thanks pjdelport 2014-06-18T17:57:52Z BitPuffin joined #scheme 2014-06-18T17:58:10Z theseb quit (Quit: Leaving) 2014-06-18T17:59:06Z pjdelport: work_op: I don't know of a Scheme implementation. 2014-06-18T17:59:22Z pjdelport: I only found a negative mention: http://lists.racket-lang.org/users/archive/2009-December/037246.html 2014-06-18T18:00:16Z pjdelport: There's probably not any particularly easy way to implement it, either; it's hard to do efficiently. 2014-06-18T18:00:30Z daviid: work_op: you'd have to go for clojure then, maybe: http://clojure.org/refs 2014-06-18T18:01:24Z pjdelport: PyPy also has some STM in the works, if you want to look at its Scheme frontend perhaps. 2014-06-18T18:01:38Z work_op: im not looking to move away from scheme 2014-06-18T18:01:47Z work_op: i like scheme, its clean 2014-06-18T18:02:47Z DrDuck: Why isn't Scheme/Racket used in the industry? 2014-06-18T18:03:20Z LeoNerd: Because universities teach Java and Python 2014-06-18T18:03:30Z LeoNerd: So kids grow up thinking that's all there is 2014-06-18T18:03:58Z pjdelport: DrDuck: Network effects. 2014-06-18T18:04:25Z DrDuck: pjdelport: What's that? 2014-06-18T18:04:42Z pjdelport: Oh, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Network_effect 2014-06-18T18:04:44Z kazimir42 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-18T18:04:58Z pjdelport: Basically, "People don't use it because people don't use it." 2014-06-18T18:05:15Z work_op: ^ 2014-06-18T18:05:17Z kazimir42 joined #scheme 2014-06-18T18:05:55Z daviid: i would not say it is not used, are you sure of that ? :) it is but probably less then ... a very very very old story :) 2014-06-18T18:05:55Z pjdelport: It needs aggressive pushing to get an ecosystem to the size and momentum of something like Python. 2014-06-18T18:06:33Z fantazo joined #scheme 2014-06-18T18:07:14Z pjdelport: daviid: Yeah, that's just an imprecise way of putting it. The only way to get more industrial use is just to push it harder: make well-supported libraries, packages, tutorials, documentation, and so on. It's hard work. 2014-06-18T18:08:04Z work_op: stuff like STM, for example. 2014-06-18T18:08:08Z daviid: pjdelport: guile has all that, the problem is else where ino 2014-06-18T18:08:29Z daviid: s/ino/imo 2014-06-18T18:09:11Z sheilong joined #scheme 2014-06-18T18:09:51Z pjdelport: daviid: I wouldn't say it has; where's the guile equivalent of e.g. PyPI and Django and Twisted and so on? 2014-06-18T18:10:42Z pjdelport: Well, not just Guile but all of Scheme, really. 2014-06-18T18:11:41Z work_op: Twisted's equivalent will be CSCM: http://the-concurrent-schemer.github.io/scm-doc/# 2014-06-18T18:11:47Z yacks joined #scheme 2014-06-18T18:11:57Z work_op: scheme implemented in erlang, massively concurrent actor model 2014-06-18T18:12:00Z work_op: im stoked 2014-06-18T18:12:13Z work_op is now known as work_op_afk 2014-06-18T18:13:03Z pjdelport: work_op_afk: I mean in terms of library scale and support, not just the basic features. 2014-06-18T18:15:04Z pjdelport: If you're a company wanting a big industrial system, you can go out and hire a dozen Twisted developers and leverage a big existing ecosystem of open-source code for nearly every protocol or system you could name. 2014-06-18T18:16:08Z pjdelport: I don't know the extent of CSCM's ecosystem, but I doubt it's anywhere near comparable. 2014-06-18T18:16:59Z pjdelport: Which is nothing against it; it's just an observation that the road to being widely used in industry is long, hard, and thankless, and paved with blood, sweat, and tears. 2014-06-18T18:19:50Z daviid: guile has all that [PyPI Django ..., you just don't know, maybe, and of course it is not [fortunately] exactly a py copy :). industrial 'size' just mean absolutely nothing 2014-06-18T18:20:45Z mario-goulart: sometimes GPL and industry don't play well together. 2014-06-18T18:20:55Z daviid: but hey, let's work to improve what we have, join the guile [or racket] team ... we're full of things to do :) 2014-06-18T18:21:24Z Riastradh joined #scheme 2014-06-18T18:22:06Z pjdelport: daviid: Industrial "size" certainly means something the context of it being used in the industry! 2014-06-18T18:22:20Z pjdelport: (which is what DrDuck was asking about) 2014-06-18T18:22:45Z DrDuck: heyo 2014-06-18T18:23:24Z jeapostr1phe quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2014-06-18T18:25:33Z jeapostr1phe joined #scheme 2014-06-18T18:25:47Z daviid: i desagree, 1 of my customer is the 3d biggest mineral company in the world, they purchased my services, all wwritten in scheme [guile], under GPL, and I am alone [almost, it's a microcompany]... but i have to leave the talk, work to do ... :) as i say, let's improve what we have and break prejudgment against functional prog and scheme by working to improve things all together... 2014-06-18T18:26:06Z Rodya_ joined #scheme 2014-06-18T18:26:53Z pjdelport: Hey, there's no prejudice! I like Scheme and FP. :) 2014-06-18T18:28:22Z mario-goulart: daviid: 1 of your customers sounds like a small sample, don't you think? :-) Surely there are companies that use GPL things, but many of them have serious restrictions. 2014-06-18T18:32:08Z daviid: mario-goulart: i was more refering to 'scheme can't be used to solve industrial problms because it lacks libs...', an idea that i totally desagree with 2014-06-18T18:33:55Z arrubin left #scheme 2014-06-18T18:34:18Z daviid: bbl, nice to talk to you all 2014-06-18T18:35:22Z altphi quit (Quit: somno opus est.) 2014-06-18T18:36:52Z alexei_ joined #scheme 2014-06-18T18:37:58Z mario-goulart: I wish I could agree with you. :-) 2014-06-18T18:38:15Z altphi joined #scheme 2014-06-18T18:50:59Z MichaelRaskin joined #scheme 2014-06-18T19:00:01Z Riastradh quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-18T19:00:14Z Riastradh joined #scheme 2014-06-18T19:08:47Z sstrickl_ joined #scheme 2014-06-18T19:09:10Z sstrickl_ left #scheme 2014-06-18T19:10:31Z phax left #scheme 2014-06-18T19:24:27Z alexei_ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-06-18T19:24:30Z DrDuck quit (Quit: Page closed) 2014-06-18T19:27:41Z alexei_ joined #scheme 2014-06-18T19:30:09Z altphi quit 2014-06-18T19:36:14Z civodul quit (Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)) 2014-06-18T19:42:09Z gravicappa quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2014-06-18T19:46:27Z visualshock quit (Quit: Leaving) 2014-06-18T19:49:29Z vishesh joined #scheme 2014-06-18T19:59:22Z pnkfelix joined #scheme 2014-06-18T20:03:40Z civodul joined #scheme 2014-06-18T20:04:37Z civodul quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-18T20:05:02Z civodul joined #scheme 2014-06-18T20:06:06Z phax joined #scheme 2014-06-18T20:16:33Z ijp quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-18T20:26:52Z genkinodenki quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-06-18T20:27:43Z sroy_ quit (Quit: Quitte) 2014-06-18T20:27:45Z genkinodenki joined #scheme 2014-06-18T20:52:47Z pjdelport quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2014-06-18T21:11:54Z FracV quit (Quit: leaving) 2014-06-18T21:12:15Z FracV joined #scheme 2014-06-18T21:16:12Z aeth quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2014-06-18T21:18:41Z Shadox joined #scheme 2014-06-18T21:19:48Z langmartin quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2014-06-18T21:25:00Z theseb joined #scheme 2014-06-18T21:26:11Z ASau joined #scheme 2014-06-18T21:28:24Z vinleod joined #scheme 2014-06-18T21:31:31Z Fare quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-18T22:02:36Z Giomancer joined #scheme 2014-06-18T22:03:43Z Giomancer left #scheme 2014-06-18T22:03:54Z davexunit quit (Quit: Later) 2014-06-18T22:07:51Z mcsmash joined #scheme 2014-06-18T22:08:55Z mcsmash: Hi guys, I'm looking for a scheme parser written with lex/yacc, or flex/bison. 2014-06-18T22:09:05Z sheilong quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2014-06-18T22:09:10Z mcsmash: I've been trolling Google for hours without luck. 2014-06-18T22:09:20Z vishesh quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-06-18T22:09:34Z mcsmash: Do any of you know of a oss project that I could fork? 2014-06-18T22:10:11Z theseb quit (Quit: Leaving) 2014-06-18T22:13:21Z pnkfelix quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2014-06-18T22:15:04Z turbofail: is there any particular reason it has to be written using yacc or bison? 2014-06-18T22:17:20Z daviid: mcsmash: guile, see https://www.gnu.org/software/guile/manual/html_node/LALR_00281_0029-Parsing.html#LALR_00281_0029-Parsing 2014-06-18T22:17:20Z rudybot: http://tinyurl.com/kx3ycwe 2014-06-18T22:17:39Z mcsmash: thanks daviid :) 2014-06-18T22:17:59Z daviid: welcome 2014-06-18T22:20:09Z mcsmash: yep, that's exactly what I was looking for ^_^ 2014-06-18T22:21:13Z turbofail: oh, i thought you were looking for a yacc or bison grammar for scheme 2014-06-18T22:21:27Z turbofail: not a parsing library 2014-06-18T22:24:16Z mcsmash: turbofail: You're correct. I am looking for a grammar for scheme. 2014-06-18T22:24:31Z mcsmash: But guile seems to have one in it's source. 2014-06-18T22:27:18Z mcsmash: I could be wrong though. 2014-06-18T22:29:06Z mcsmash: hmmmm 2014-06-18T22:32:45Z vinleod quit (Quit: ["Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com"]) 2014-06-18T22:35:04Z turbofail: anyway i'm pretty sure most scheme implementations don't use yacc or bison, simply because it's often simpler to just write a recursive descent parser 2014-06-18T22:36:59Z mcsmash: yeah, guile wasn't actually what I was looking for. I just looked like it was at first glance. 2014-06-18T22:37:03Z mcsmash: The search continues... 2014-06-18T22:38:01Z aeth joined #scheme 2014-06-18T22:42:03Z matheus23 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-18T22:43:25Z robot-beethoven joined #scheme 2014-06-18T22:45:15Z daviid: i missunderstood your quizz sorry. i don't think you'll find that actually, unless as the result of a 'theoretical' [university] exercise, maybe 2014-06-18T22:46:30Z mcsmash: yeah, I'm coming to that conclusion ;_; 2014-06-18T22:46:42Z Sgeo joined #scheme 2014-06-18T22:48:03Z civodul quit (Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)) 2014-06-18T22:49:17Z samth: mcsmash: why do you need this grammar? 2014-06-18T22:50:51Z samth: here's a lexer for racket, for example: https://github.com/plt/racket/blob/master/pkgs/syntax-color-pkgs/syntax-color-lib/syntax-color/racket-lexer.rkt 2014-06-18T22:50:51Z rudybot: http://tinyurl.com/q3qnpjo 2014-06-18T22:56:15Z FracV quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-18T22:56:52Z nisstyre: "I write my lexers by hand. Much easier. " -- Ken Thompson 2014-06-18T22:57:01Z nisstyre: samth, mcsmash ^ 2014-06-18T23:01:11Z nisstyre: I take it as a sign of incompetence that things like PHP (Zend's) use lexer and parser generators 2014-06-18T23:01:35Z nisstyre: even GCC started using a handwritten recursive descent parser 2014-06-18T23:01:50Z nisstyre: not that parser generators can't be useful ever 2014-06-18T23:02:05Z nisstyre: just not for important things such as programming language implementations 2014-06-18T23:05:21Z c74d quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-18T23:08:35Z c74d joined #scheme 2014-06-18T23:08:51Z BitPuffin quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-06-18T23:22:51Z annodomini quit (Quit: annodomini) 2014-06-18T23:25:17Z Fare joined #scheme 2014-06-18T23:28:40Z oleo is now known as Guest75546 2014-06-18T23:30:09Z oleo__ joined #scheme 2014-06-18T23:31:27Z Guest75546 quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-06-18T23:33:25Z vinleod joined #scheme 2014-06-18T23:33:54Z leppie quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2014-06-18T23:38:59Z leppie joined #scheme 2014-06-18T23:39:02Z mcsmash: nisstyre: I came in here looking for help. I don't appreciate being called incompetent. 2014-06-18T23:39:20Z nisstyre: mcsmash: I'm calling Zend incompetent 2014-06-18T23:39:31Z nisstyre: mcsmash: I don't know what you need a parser generator for, I wasn't implying you're incompetent 2014-06-18T23:41:01Z mcsmash: Sorry for the missunderstaning (I agree, that guy IS incompetent) It just seemed to me that you were making a much broader implication there. 2014-06-18T23:41:53Z nisstyre: mcsmash: well, no, but I do think PEGs are better than yacc type parser generators 2014-06-18T23:41:57Z nisstyre: or parser combinator libraries 2014-06-18T23:42:13Z nisstyre: if you need to do that kind of thing 2014-06-18T23:42:27Z nisstyre: I think there are some PEG libraries for Racket, I'd check those out 2014-06-18T23:42:35Z nisstyre: PEG = Parsing Expression Grammars fyi 2014-06-18T23:43:02Z c74d is now known as Guest74995 2014-06-18T23:43:02Z Guest74995 quit (Killed (dickson.freenode.net (Nickname regained by services))) 2014-06-18T23:43:25Z mcsmash: parser generators aren't bad per se. Any parser I write in Flex/Bison effectively gauranteed to be less buggy than one that I write. 2014-06-18T23:43:54Z araujo quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-06-18T23:44:16Z mcsmash: Zend is rather famous (and has addmitted) for utter incompetence when it comes to parsing. 2014-06-18T23:44:18Z nisstyre: mcsmash: yeah but they are not known for their errors being helpful, and when they're doing something you don't expect it's hard to debug 2014-06-18T23:44:29Z araujo joined #scheme 2014-06-18T23:44:41Z nisstyre: parser combinators are good because you have more control 2014-06-18T23:45:50Z nisstyre: plus if you want to use a functional language like Scheme then why not make use of a functional approach? 2014-06-18T23:46:18Z c74d joined #scheme 2014-06-18T23:47:28Z mcsmash: I don't actually exactly want to use scheme. I'm writing a general game playing AI library, and a couple of the widely used game description languages are variants of lisp. 2014-06-18T23:48:06Z mcsmash: I want to parse the rule sets, and then transform them into different languages. 2014-06-18T23:48:07Z nisstyre: okay, I'm not sure I understand the problem entirely then 2014-06-18T23:48:17Z nisstyre: so you want a "transpiler" then 2014-06-18T23:48:54Z samth: nisstyre: let's pretend you never used that word, and i won't have to get angry ;) 2014-06-18T23:49:08Z mcsmash: lol 2014-06-18T23:49:10Z nisstyre: yes, I know :\ 2014-06-18T23:50:23Z nisstyre: mcsmash: anyway, I guess what you want to do is write a new code generator backend, or find an existing one 2014-06-18T23:50:41Z nisstyre: the second option is probably better 2014-06-18T23:51:55Z Soft quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-18T23:52:41Z mcsmash: Do you know of any tools that I can use? 2014-06-18T23:53:09Z nisstyre: only thing I can find is a tool to compile yacc-ish grammars into common lisp 2014-06-18T23:53:11Z nisstyre: http://www.pps.univ-paris-diderot.fr/~jch/software/cl-yacc/ 2014-06-18T23:53:24Z nisstyre: that probably won't help much if the languages are closer to Scheme 2014-06-18T23:54:08Z nisstyre: oh wait, that's a lisp DSL 2014-06-18T23:54:10Z nisstyre: nevermind 2014-06-18T23:54:35Z mcsmash: I'm pretty sure guile has an implementation of a lexical analyzer written in lex 2014-06-18T23:54:44Z mcsmash: That should get me part of the way there. 2014-06-18T23:55:18Z nisstyre: I still think it would be easier to just write the lexer by hand 2014-06-18T23:55:21Z nisstyre: it's not that hard 2014-06-18T23:55:38Z nisstyre: it's basically one giant loop with case analysis on each character 2014-06-18T23:55:48Z nisstyre: and maybe a few helper functions 2014-06-18T23:57:19Z mcsmash: No, it's probably not that hard. I'm fairly sure I have one that's already been written, so it would prbably be pretty silly to re-invent the wheel. 2014-06-18T23:57:51Z mcsmash: Especially when it a very small (and less interesting) part of a much larger project. 2014-06-18T23:58:06Z nisstyre: mcsmash: just to make sure I understand though, you want to parse the description languages or you want to generate code in them? 2014-06-18T23:58:22Z mcsmash: I want to parse them 2014-06-18T23:58:31Z mcsmash: here's the basic chain of events 2014-06-18T23:58:43Z nisstyre: ah okay 2014-06-18T23:59:10Z nisstyre: so, this shouldn't be too hard 2014-06-18T23:59:21Z mcsmash: game description language -> parse tree -> generate code for target language -> compile target language to machine code 2014-06-18T23:59:24Z mcsmash: nope 2014-06-19T00:00:06Z nisstyre: if the description language is valid s-expressions you might even be able to use the implementation of 'read' for an existing lisp 2014-06-19T00:00:21Z nisstyre: at least for 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pjdelport: also for "dumpster diving" and oleg 2014-06-19T12:53:53Z pjdelport: IOW, examples of implementing weird, unusual, or borderline crazy syntactical ideas, out of interest. 2014-06-19T12:54:07Z pjdelport: samth: Cool, thanks! 2014-06-19T12:57:24Z Soft- quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2014-06-19T13:01:37Z pjdelport: samth: I'm not sure I'm finding anything for dumpster diving and oleg. Is that Oleg as in Kiselyov? 2014-06-19T13:01:43Z samth: pjdelport: yeah 2014-06-19T13:01:54Z misv joined #scheme 2014-06-19T13:02:33Z samth: basically anything here http://okmij.org/ftp/Scheme/macros.html fits your goals 2014-06-19T13:02:54Z samth: this is the technique known as dumpster diving http://okmij.org/ftp/Scheme/macros.html#dirty-macros 2014-06-19T13:04:24Z pjdelport: Oh, yeah. 2014-06-19T13:09:43Z Nizumzen joined #scheme 2014-06-19T13:12:21Z przl_ joined #scheme 2014-06-19T13:14:27Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2014-06-19T13:14:42Z jeapostr1phe quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2014-06-19T13:14:49Z skeuomorf quit (Quit: leaving) 2014-06-19T13:24:57Z Soft- joined #scheme 2014-06-19T13:29:27Z jeapostr1phe joined #scheme 2014-06-19T13:35:34Z langmartin joined #scheme 2014-06-19T13:39:05Z ANGRYSTEVE joined #scheme 2014-06-19T13:42:37Z alex94nts joined #scheme 2014-06-19T13:43:18Z annodomini quit (Quit: annodomini) 2014-06-19T13:48:49Z alex94nts: hi, i'm going to start learning scheme with sicp, which scheme do you recommend me? 2014-06-19T13:49:04Z misv quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2014-06-19T13:49:05Z skeuomorf joined #scheme 2014-06-19T13:49:13Z alex94nts: i mean, there are mit-scheme, racket, guile,... so many to choose from 2014-06-19T13:50:15Z jlongster joined #scheme 2014-06-19T13:51:36Z jim: 1you have a strong math background then? 2014-06-19T13:52:06Z pjdelport: alex94nts: For SICP, MIT Scheme is usually a standard recommendation (it's what the authors use), but Racket has very good support for SICP specifically too. 2014-06-19T13:53:26Z jim: yes, sicp will teach you scheme. FAST. In the alternative, you might want to know some scheme first 2014-06-19T13:53:37Z alex94nts: pjdelport: ok, i've heard quite good things about Racket, so i'll try with it first. Thanks! 2014-06-19T13:54:02Z jim: also a strong post-calc math background is strongly recommended. 2014-06-19T13:54:04Z phax quit (Quit: phax) 2014-06-19T13:54:07Z pjdelport: alex94nts: Racket has some packages specifically for SICP: http://planet.racket-lang.org/display.ss?package=sicp.plt&owner=neil 2014-06-19T13:54:14Z pjdelport: http://planet.racket-lang.org/display.ss?package=sicp.plt&owner=soegaard for the picture language 2014-06-19T13:54:27Z pjdelport: http://planet.racket-lang.org/display.ss?package=sicp-concurrency.plt&owner=dyoo for the concurrency language 2014-06-19T13:54:28Z rudybot: http://tinyurl.com/k739myk 2014-06-19T13:54:30Z alex94nts: jim: what do you mean by post-calc maths? 2014-06-19T13:54:46Z jim: at least linear algebra 2014-06-19T13:54:53Z pjdelport: alex94nts: Of course, you don't have to choose; you can just experiment in both. :) 2014-06-19T13:55:09Z vraid: linear algebra is pre-calc, if anything 2014-06-19T13:55:28Z adsisco joined #scheme 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ZZZzzz…) 2014-06-21T04:05:09Z rudybot joined #scheme 2014-06-21T04:05:10Z rudybot quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-21T04:08:57Z rudybot joined #scheme 2014-06-21T04:09:25Z offby1: rudybot: feeling better now? 2014-06-21T04:09:27Z rudybot: offby1: that feeling you get, when you think about it, that million of users are running your ode every day? 2014-06-21T04:09:37Z offby1: I prefer an IDE to an ode 2014-06-21T04:21:22Z jim: wo wo wo feelings 2014-06-21T04:23:24Z rins joined #scheme 2014-06-21T04:25:22Z offby1: gimme that mic 2014-06-21T04:26:13Z offby1: does anybody really need to hear 'Feelings' again in their lifetime? It's like parsley, okay? Take it away, nobody's going to know the difference. 2014-06-21T04:32:16Z jim: I like parsley too 2014-06-21T04:33:51Z nisstyre: hi offby1 2014-06-21T04:33:56Z nisstyre: how's it going? 2014-06-21T04:34:29Z nisstyre: offby1: ode = ordinary development environment? 2014-06-21T04:38:06Z offby1: nisstyre: I feel much happier that I've got rudybot back on his "feet" 2014-06-21T04:38:32Z nisstyre: offby1: I want to write an irc library in Racket...I even sort of started it 2014-06-21T04:38:41Z nisstyre: but I lost the will, although I might start again 2014-06-21T04:38:53Z nisstyre: I did write a crappy Racket irc bot though 2014-06-21T04:39:20Z nisstyre: (had an event loop and everything though) 2014-06-21T04:40:30Z offby1: nisstyre: don't tell anyone but I've toyed with the idea of rewriting rudybot (for the third or fourth time), in ... python 2014-06-21T04:40:48Z offby1: I'd have to run a separate racket process in order to preserve the "eval" feature 2014-06-21T04:42:03Z nisstyre: offby1: umm, okay, well, you could rewrite it in something trendier like javascript 2014-06-21T04:42:57Z nisstyre: offby1: what I wanted to do was have fast parsing of the protocol itself plus an event loop feature possibly with some threading capabilities 2014-06-21T04:43:04Z nisstyre: and then maybe a macro layer on top of that 2014-06-21T04:43:12Z nisstyre: (to register callbacks and such easily) 2014-06-21T04:46:42Z theseb quit (Quit: Leaving) 2014-06-21T04:46:49Z mrowe_away is now known as mrowe 2014-06-21T04:48:59Z jim: can you write efficient network clients and servers in scheme? or do they need to be in C? 2014-06-21T04:49:51Z nisstyre: jim: that depends on what kind of protocol we're talking about, and what constitutes a client or server 2014-06-21T04:50:07Z nisstyre: you would not write a TCP/IP stack in Scheme, or even a sockets implementation 2014-06-21T04:50:24Z nisstyre: and you would not be doing binary parsing even since IRC is a textual protocol 2014-06-21T04:50:39Z nisstyre: Racket isn't super amazing at textual stuff though 2014-06-21T04:50:57Z nisstyre: but it's not abysmal (generally) and you can work with bytestrings if you really care 2014-06-21T04:51:46Z nisstyre: Haskell might be a better choice for a server though, or Erlang 2014-06-21T04:52:04Z nisstyre: since they have had a lot of work put into making their concurrency features scale well 2014-06-21T04:52:14Z jim: so, is it that bitwise ops aren't present? 2014-06-21T04:52:20Z nisstyre: not at all 2014-06-21T04:52:26Z nisstyre: like I said, IRC is a textual protocol 2014-06-21T04:52:42Z nisstyre: if you were doing say, TLS, you'd need bitwise operations for sure, and Racket has them (as well as bytestrings) 2014-06-21T04:53:06Z nisstyre: you'd also need to ensure the correct byte order 2014-06-21T04:53:24Z nisstyre: not sure if Racket has little-endian to big-endian and vice versa, but probably 2014-06-21T04:53:31Z jim: you mean if you were doing something like TCP? 2014-06-21T04:53:53Z nisstyre: if you were doing something like TCP, yes, but even doing something on top of TCP that uses a binary protocol 2014-06-21T04:53:55Z nisstyre: like TLS 2014-06-21T04:54:13Z nisstyre: TLS = transport layer security, commonly called "SSL" 2014-06-21T04:54:44Z jim: oh ok, that's mostly about encryption tho, yes? 2014-06-21T04:55:16Z nisstyre: actually most of the protocol is doing things like deciding what ciphers to use, making sure certificates are valid, etc... 2014-06-21T04:55:43Z jim: what if you were just building something as simple as an echo (pinglike) server and client on top of tcp? 2014-06-21T04:55:44Z nisstyre: the actual encryption is a small part and happens once a bunch of other stuff not directly related has happened 2014-06-21T04:55:58Z nisstyre: jim: you could use the sockets api 2014-06-21T04:56:06Z nisstyre: that comes with most modern operating systems 2014-06-21T04:56:11Z nisstyre: and Racket has bindings to it 2014-06-21T04:56:20Z mrowe is now known as mrowe_away 2014-06-21T04:56:31Z jim: racket socket pocket packets? 2014-06-21T04:56:45Z nisstyre: you might want to have a look at this http://beej.us/guide/bgnet/ 2014-06-21T04:56:54Z nisstyre: (assumes some C knowledge) 2014-06-21T04:57:08Z jim: got plenty of that 2014-06-21T04:57:25Z nisstyre: well read away, I also recommend TCP/IP Illustrated 2014-06-21T04:57:36Z nisstyre: and maybe even Unix Network Programming 2014-06-21T04:57:54Z nisstyre: most of this crap is available in some form from Racket 2014-06-21T04:58:14Z nisstyre: http://docs.racket-lang.org/reference/tcp.html 2014-06-21T04:58:26Z jim: what I'm mainly interested in, is what are the major issues when running a server and client (simple, like tcp echo) written in a scheme? 2014-06-21T04:59:20Z nisstyre: jim: speed, basically 2014-06-21T04:59:24Z nisstyre: and scalability 2014-06-21T04:59:32Z nisstyre: meaning how many concurrent clients can a server support 2014-06-21T04:59:41Z nisstyre: and how many concurrent connections can a client make 2014-06-21T04:59:52Z jim: ok... 2014-06-21T05:00:15Z nisstyre: those 2 numbers are limited by the OS 2014-06-21T05:00:17Z jim: so what about something like guile which could be compiled? 2014-06-21T05:00:23Z nisstyre: but often you will fail before reaching that 2014-06-21T05:00:32Z nisstyre: jim: you can compile Racket code 2014-06-21T05:00:41Z nisstyre: I don't know if Guile is any better at optimizations 2014-06-21T05:00:48Z nisstyre: it's certainly embedded into more things 2014-06-21T05:01:02Z nisstyre: there is always Stalin, but that has a limited feature-set 2014-06-21T05:01:03Z rins quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2014-06-21T05:01:06Z jim: is it similar to guile, where trying to load the .scm files lead to trying to compile them? 2014-06-21T05:01:18Z nisstyre: Racket compiles them into bytecode I believe 2014-06-21T05:01:30Z nisstyre: and does some sort of just-in-time compilation 2014-06-21T05:01:36Z nisstyre: where it can get translated into machine code 2014-06-21T05:01:54Z nisstyre: if you do raco exe foo.rkt you can get a binary 2014-06-21T05:02:32Z jim: .exe, so that's on a win machine? 2014-06-21T05:02:39Z nisstyre: no it works on unix 2014-06-21T05:02:44Z nisstyre: just called exe for some reason 2014-06-21T05:03:17Z nisstyre: it will spit out a binary in ELF form 2014-06-21T05:03:28Z jim: oh ok, so the executables it compiles have .exe by default? 2014-06-21T05:03:31Z nisstyre: on windows it would be an actual exe though 2014-06-21T05:03:36Z nisstyre: jim: nope 2014-06-21T05:03:39Z nisstyre: that's just the command 2014-06-21T05:04:35Z jim: weird... 2014-06-21T05:06:25Z jim: why do you suppose compiled scheme is slower or otherwise less efficient than (say) C? 2014-06-21T05:06:58Z jim: or is that even the comparison to look at? 2014-06-21T05:07:12Z nisstyre: jim: there is more than one reason 2014-06-21T05:07:28Z nisstyre: C makes the programmer manage memory manually 2014-06-21T05:07:38Z nisstyre: C does not require environment lookups to call a function 2014-06-21T05:07:50Z nisstyre: C uses fixed-width number types everywhere 2014-06-21T05:07:54Z nisstyre: and so on 2014-06-21T05:08:23Z Rptx` quit (Quit: gonna sleep) 2014-06-21T05:08:57Z jim: ok, so far, that sounds like the services lisp/scheme provides which still take time 2014-06-21T05:17:11Z renopt joined #scheme 2014-06-21T05:37:39Z jshjsh joined #scheme 2014-06-21T05:41:46Z racycle joined #scheme 2014-06-21T05:46:30Z racycle quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2014-06-21T05:52:18Z pjb: nisstyre: why do you write comments? do you want us to ignore them? :-) 2014-06-21T05:53:08Z pjb: Makes me think of some lisp code seen in a movie, written on paper, where the left parentheses were replaced by 'C's aligned on the left, like Fortran comment lines :-) 2014-06-21T05:53:30Z miyabe quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-21T06:03:10Z miyabe joined #scheme 2014-06-21T06:04:17Z nisstyre: pjb: I want you to ignore them because they usually haven't been as thoroughly checked as the source code 2014-06-21T06:09:29Z avery joined #scheme 2014-06-21T06:25:56Z mrowe_away is now known as mrowe 2014-06-21T06:35:08Z ijp joined #scheme 2014-06-21T06:41:09Z pjb: So basically, let's just ignore all that's written in English :-) Only maths and code. 2014-06-21T06:42:41Z racycle joined #scheme 2014-06-21T06:45:39Z mrowe is now known as mrowe_away 2014-06-21T06:46:53Z jim: lambda? BLAMbda! 2014-06-21T06:47:00Z racycle quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-21T06:48:32Z jim: The land of punch-drunk comment cards! 2014-06-21T06:58:16Z skeuomorf joined #scheme 2014-06-21T07:01:12Z spaceotter quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2014-06-21T07:06:47Z daviid joined #scheme 2014-06-21T07:13:36Z jewel joined #scheme 2014-06-21T07:15:21Z pjdelport: jim: Are you planning to write a particular server? 2014-06-21T07:16:42Z pjdelport: Speaking generally, writing a client / server application in Scheme shouldn't be too much different to writing it in another dynamic high-level language, such as Python or Ruby. 2014-06-21T07:16:49Z jim: no, I just got curious about performance 2014-06-21T07:16:53Z jshjsh: Lammylammylambda 2014-06-21T07:17:05Z pjdelport: The performance considerations will probably be similar. 2014-06-21T07:17:29Z jim throws an A at lambda 2014-06-21T07:17:52Z jshjsh: I think there are more efficient compilers for scheme than ruby 2014-06-21T07:17:57Z jshjsh: not sure about python 2014-06-21T07:17:59Z pjdelport: Your average Scheme code is not as fast as C, but there's no need for it to be if I/O is your bottleneck. 2014-06-21T07:18:13Z jim: pjdelport, oh, do you want to see what I did so far with the arrangements thing you wrote? 2014-06-21T07:18:14Z jshjsh: also you can use a typed scheme in racket for stuff that really has to be fast 2014-06-21T07:18:20Z ijp: unless you are planning to immediately launch your SaaS business: try, then measure 2014-06-21T07:18:51Z pjdelport: And generally speaking, where you do have processor-intensive code like protocol parsing or other low-level things, it might already be in a C library. 2014-06-21T07:19:30Z jim: probably compilers have been around for scheme a lot longer than for perl/python/ruby/tcl 2014-06-21T07:20:07Z jshjsh: I have some interesting parser libraries I wrote in scheme... I'd rather use them than other parsers. They're less finicky 2014-06-21T07:20:22Z jim: pjdelport, and I gather from before there are ways to call C lib calls 2014-06-21T07:20:26Z pjdelport: For comparison, people write massive server applications in things like Twisted Python all the time, and performance is rarely any concern. 2014-06-21T07:20:32Z pjdelport: Right. 2014-06-21T07:20:32Z jim: FFI 2014-06-21T07:20:58Z jim: what's twisted about twisted python? 2014-06-21T07:21:26Z pjdelport: Twisted is the de facto asynchronous networking framework for Python. 2014-06-21T07:21:38Z jim: oh ok 2014-06-21T07:21:47Z pjdelport: It's the go-to thing for writing network servers and clients in Python. :) 2014-06-21T07:21:53Z jim: so you do things like bots and botnets in it 2014-06-21T07:22:26Z pjdelport: (It's used by a bunch of high-profile sites.) 2014-06-21T07:22:41Z jim: is it what drupal uses? 2014-06-21T07:22:50Z pjdelport: No, Drupal is PHP. 2014-06-21T07:23:03Z jim crosses THAT off my list... 2014-06-21T07:23:13Z jim: php needs forking 2014-06-21T07:23:27Z pjdelport: What about bots and botnets? 2014-06-21T07:23:28Z jim: by someone who actually knows how to maintain software 2014-06-21T07:23:55Z jim: I was just saying twisted could be used to make them 2014-06-21T07:24:48Z pjdelport: Well... that's sort of a specialized domain. Dynamic languages are probably not the best fit for it. 2014-06-21T07:25:28Z pjdelport: You can write any network client or server in it, though; Twisted comes with support for basically any protocol you'd care to name. 2014-06-21T07:26:28Z matheus23 joined #scheme 2014-06-21T07:26:58Z jim: well I guess the specialized part of bots is they also talk irc 2014-06-21T07:28:28Z jim: anything else special about bots? 2014-06-21T07:29:08Z pjdelport: jim: If you're specifically interested in that kind of thing, you might want to check out https://sites.google.com/site/waspvm/ 2014-06-21T07:29:58Z pjdelport: and https://github.com/swdunlop/WaspVM 2014-06-21T07:37:30Z defanor quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-21T07:43:14Z defanor joined #scheme 2014-06-21T07:43:31Z racycle joined #scheme 2014-06-21T07:44:47Z racycle quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-06-21T07:45:16Z racycle joined #scheme 2014-06-21T07:49:47Z racycle quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-06-21T07:50:54Z 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#scheme 2014-06-24T00:20:41Z mrowe_away is now known as mrowe 2014-06-24T00:21:25Z leppie quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-06-24T00:23:19Z arrubin joined #scheme 2014-06-24T00:23:30Z Sgeo_ joined #scheme 2014-06-24T00:26:37Z Sgeo quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-24T00:27:31Z leppie joined #scheme 2014-06-24T00:42:15Z _leb joined #scheme 2014-06-24T00:49:44Z davexunit joined #scheme 2014-06-24T01:17:30Z Menche: how do I do bitwise operations (shift, xor, etc) in scheme? 2014-06-24T01:19:25Z pjb: in r5rs, you have to implement them with arithmetic. 2014-06-24T01:21:25Z groovy2shoes: Menche: there was SRFI-33, but it was withdrawn... various Scheme implementations may provide that functionality (non-portably), and the SRFI-33 reference implementation may be of some use: http://srfi.schemers.org/srfi-33/srfi-33.txt 2014-06-24T01:21:45Z Menche looks 2014-06-24T01:24:31Z groovy2shoes: Menche: R6RS has some support, if you're using an R6RS implementation: http://www.r6rs.org/final/html/r6rs-lib/r6rs-lib-Z-H-12.html#node_sec_11.4 2014-06-24T01:25:37Z Menche: I'm currently using gambit, which is an extended R5RS i believe 2014-06-24T01:26:04Z Menche: also have chicken and bigloo installed 2014-06-24T01:27:11Z groovy2shoes: I *think* they all support some bitwise operations, but you'd have to check for yourself 2014-06-24T01:27:31Z groovy2shoes: and just remember that in R5RS they're non-standard 2014-06-24T01:27:40Z groovy2shoes: if that's important to you 2014-06-24T01:30:56Z ogamita joined #scheme 2014-06-24T01:34:39Z daviid quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2014-06-24T01:46:28Z sethalves: srfi-60 2014-06-24T01:48:28Z phax quit (Quit: phax) 2014-06-24T01:49:14Z sethalves: there are some sort-of portable bitwise operators here: https://github.com/sethalves/r7rs-srfis/blob/master/srfi/60.sld 2014-06-24T01:53:37Z davexunit quit (Quit: Later) 2014-06-24T01:53:45Z b4283 joined #scheme 2014-06-24T01:57:41Z vraaid joined #scheme 2014-06-24T01:59:15Z ogamita quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2014-06-24T02:00:37Z vraid quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2014-06-24T02:04:42Z ogamita joined #scheme 2014-06-24T02:05:57Z joejev joined #scheme 2014-06-24T02:06:10Z joejev: Does anyone here use guile? 2014-06-24T02:06:48Z Menche quit (Quit: Killed by a lichen.) 2014-06-24T02:07:29Z jim: maybe you? 2014-06-24T02:07:44Z joejev: I do, but I had a question about it 2014-06-24T02:08:18Z jim: you should ask it 2014-06-24T02:08:59Z joejev: I am getting a segfault in scm_call_2 when passing a valid procedure and 2 valid params 2014-06-24T02:09:42Z jim: are you doing something in C? 2014-06-24T02:10:05Z joejev: Yes 2014-06-24T02:11:15Z joejev: The procedure is written in pure scheme, and the params are immutable records that are contructed from a call to the scheme constructor. I am just calling scm_is_true on the return of scm_call_2 of the proc and those args and that is where it dies 2014-06-24T02:11:41Z joejev: one easy way to alleviate this would be if there was a builtin function for checking the equality of immutable records by value. 2014-06-24T02:11:51Z jim: I used to do perl and C stuff, which uses reference counting for perl objects, and I'd get crashes all the time until I got the refcounts right 2014-06-24T02:12:30Z jim: personally, I've never dived under the hood of guile 2014-06-24T02:12:40Z joejev: libguile uses libgc under the hood 2014-06-24T02:13:57Z jim: one reason I was getting crashes with perl was the refcounts were too low, and would cause them to disappear just before they got used 2014-06-24T02:14:31Z joejev: it does the garbage collecting for me, no manual ref-counting 2014-06-24T02:15:37Z joejev: but is there a function to compare immutable records for equality of all fields? 2014-06-24T02:15:37Z paddymahoney quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-24T02:15:41Z W-Crusher joined #scheme 2014-06-24T02:15:53Z jim: has the guile you're using been built with -g? 2014-06-24T02:16:01Z W-Crusher: are car and cdr supposed to work on "syntax-lists" if you will? 2014-06-24T02:16:37Z joejev: nope 2014-06-24T02:16:41Z W-Crusher: The r6rs spec seems to imply that (forall identifier? #'(a b c d)) should just proceed without errors and answer true, in Psyntax this behaviour is observed, but Racket in R6RS mode throws an exception 2014-06-24T02:18:07Z ogamita quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-06-24T02:18:27Z jim: car and cdr act on pairs. if syntax lists use pairs, you could probably use them... if not, car and cdr won't work and to disassemble them you will need the operators that do operate on syntax lists 2014-06-24T02:18:36Z joejev: (gdb) bt 2014-06-24T02:18:36Z joejev: #0 0x00007ffff76be51e in ?? () from /usr/lib/libguile-2.0.so.22 2014-06-24T02:18:36Z joejev: #1 0x00007ffff76353d9 in scm_call_2 () from /usr/lib/libguile-2.0.so.22 2014-06-24T02:18:36Z joejev: #2 0x00000000004053b7 in process_logic (vps=0x7fffffffe450) 2014-06-24T02:18:36Z joejev: 2014-06-24T02:18:50Z paddymahoney joined #scheme 2014-06-24T02:19:17Z W-Crusher: jim, the r6rs spec on syntax objects clearly uses (forall identifier? #'(a b c d)) in one of its examples though. 2014-06-24T02:19:50Z W-Crusher: This would imply that car and cdr from (rnrs (6)) should be able to destructure something like #'(a b c d) in 2014-06-24T02:22:51Z jim: If I type #'(a b c d) into guile, I get... 2014-06-24T02:23:06Z W-Crusher: Well (car #'(a b)) just works in guile. 2014-06-24T02:23:27Z jim: (#(syntax-object a ((top)) (hygiene guile-user)) #(syntax-object b ((top)) (hygiene guile-user)) #(syntax-object c ((top)) (hygiene guile-user)) #(syntax-object d ((top)) (hygiene guile-user))) 2014-06-24T02:23:36Z W-Crusher: The r6rs spec also makes no mention of a syntactic pair in fact, it just says that a pair of any two syntax objects qualifies as a syntax object. 2014-06-24T02:25:15Z jim: when I apply car to that, I get... 2014-06-24T02:25:43Z jim: (#(syntax-object a ((top)) (hygiene guile-user)) #(syntax-object b ((top)) (hygiene guile-user)) #(syntax-object c ((top)) (hygiene guile-user)) #(syntax-object d ((top)) (hygiene guile-user))) 2014-06-24T02:25:51Z jim: that's not right 2014-06-24T02:26:03Z jim: #(syntax-object a ((top)) (hygiene guile-user)) 2014-06-24T02:31:02Z frkout_ joined #scheme 2014-06-24T02:31:27Z psykotron joined #scheme 2014-06-24T02:32:48Z W-Crusher: jim, why not? 2014-06-24T02:33:04Z W-Crusher: It works without raising an error, and the r6rs spec says that a pair of any two syntax objects is a syntax object. 2014-06-24T02:33:35Z jim: I pasted the whole list again when I wanted to paste the output of car 2014-06-24T02:34:28Z W-Crusher: Ohh, in that way. 2014-06-24T02:34:37Z frkout quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-06-24T02:34:58Z W-Crusher: The spec seems to be pretty vague about this, it seems to imply that pairs may be wrapped or unwrapped implying that an implementation is free to choose if syntax-pairs should be special or not. 2014-06-24T02:34:59Z jim: yeah, me pasting the whole list again was what wasn't right 2014-06-24T02:35:46Z W-Crusher: But the examples clearly use forall on something like #'(a b c) implying that that should work, but that is the only mention I know of in the entire r6rs document that seems to imply that normal list destructuring should work on syntax objects. 2014-06-24T02:36:05Z W-Crusher: (Note that in psyntax, syntax-case can in fact be used to destructure normal lists) 2014-06-24T02:36:09Z rtra quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2014-06-24T02:42:11Z rtra joined #scheme 2014-06-24T02:44:09Z Shadox joined #scheme 2014-06-24T02:55:18Z joejev left #scheme 2014-06-24T03:03:33Z jeapostrophe quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-24T03:08:23Z cdidd_ joined #scheme 2014-06-24T03:09:09Z cdidd__ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-24T03:12:06Z phax joined #scheme 2014-06-24T03:19:37Z pnkfelix quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-06-24T03:24:41Z groovy2shoes quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2014-06-24T03:27:04Z jim: I haven't played with the syntax stuff yet, and I note with interest that they're accessable 2014-06-24T03:55:28Z arrubin quit (Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com) 2014-06-24T04:05:41Z REPLeffect quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-06-24T04:13:37Z Khisanth quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-24T04:18:17Z ogamita joined #scheme 2014-06-24T04:19:29Z Khisanth joined #scheme 2014-06-24T04:19:45Z REPLeffect joined #scheme 2014-06-24T04:25:40Z frkout_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-24T04:26:14Z frkout joined #scheme 2014-06-24T04:29:04Z yacks joined #scheme 2014-06-24T04:29:51Z tcsc quit (Quit: computer sleeping) 2014-06-24T04:39:06Z phax left #scheme 2014-06-24T04:43:13Z ogamita quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2014-06-24T04:43:56Z racycle quit (Quit: ZZZzzz…) 2014-06-24T04:46:30Z daviid joined #scheme 2014-06-24T04:49:54Z psykotron quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2014-06-24T04:57:02Z jshjsh joined #scheme 2014-06-24T05:01:22Z oleo__ quit (Quit: Verlassend) 2014-06-24T05:12:47Z joneshf-laptop quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-24T05:13:37Z joneshf-laptop joined #scheme 2014-06-24T05:18:27Z Shadox quit (Quit: Leaving) 2014-06-24T05:26:56Z jeapostrophe joined #scheme 2014-06-24T05:27:04Z jeapostrophe quit (Changing host) 2014-06-24T05:27:04Z jeapostrophe joined #scheme 2014-06-24T05:28:30Z spaceotter quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2014-06-24T05:32:47Z Puffin quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2014-06-24T05:37:54Z gravicappa joined #scheme 2014-06-24T05:40:23Z jeapostrophe quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2014-06-24T05:42:23Z wingo joined #scheme 2014-06-24T05:47:42Z hiroakip joined #scheme 2014-06-24T05:49:01Z spaceotter joined #scheme 2014-06-24T05:54:45Z MichaelRaskin joined #scheme 2014-06-24T05:55:19Z Okasu joined #scheme 2014-06-24T05:55:38Z jusss joined #scheme 2014-06-24T06:00:46Z frkout_ joined #scheme 2014-06-24T06:01:49Z W-Crusher: jim, what do you mean with accessible? 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2014-06-24T14:05:26Z W-Crusher: taylanub: http://www.r6rs.org/final/html/r6rs-lib/r6rs-lib-Z-H-13.html#node_chap_12 2014-06-24T14:05:28Z W-Crusher: Search for "for-all" 2014-06-24T14:05:53Z W-Crusher: I was under the impression it could be implementation dependent until I saw that example, then I went to test it in multiple implementations. 2014-06-24T14:06:14Z ijp: even racket allows it in r6rs mode IIRC 2014-06-24T14:06:28Z ijp: in normal #lang racket it is stricter 2014-06-24T14:06:41Z W-Crusher: It does not, I tested it. 2014-06-24T14:07:39Z taylanub: I see it also using null? on #'() in the example above the one using for-all, where it implements `case' 2014-06-24T14:08:31Z W-Crusher: http://hastebin.com/raw/yegayipuma 2014-06-24T14:09:07Z W-Crusher: taylanub, yeah the cmore part, good catch. 2014-06-24T14:09:46Z W-Crusher: Maybe it's just an unintented oversight, it certainly isn't super explicit about normal list accessors and functions supposing to work on syntax-lists in all cases but the examples do seem to imply it in my opinion. 2014-06-24T14:12:47Z ijp: hmm, I'm sure it used to work in racket 2014-06-24T14:12:59Z pnkfelix joined #scheme 2014-06-24T14:15:51Z W-Crusher: In cases like this I feel it would be good idea for a function general-car or something like that to exist which is guaranteed to work on both wrapped and unwrapped pairs with implementations being free to choose if the normal car can. 2014-06-24T14:16:11Z W-Crusher: Especially when the example implies that null? and for-all should work on wrapped once as well. 2014-06-24T14:16:43Z W-Crusher: But I'm fairly satisfied at this point that nuill? and for-all in the examples are oversights and should have "in implementations that ..." added to them to be more clear 2014-06-24T14:17:17Z ijp: it's pretty easy to write a syntax->list and just do the conversion once at the beginning 2014-06-24T14:17:54Z ijp: https://github.com/ijp/ijputils/blob/master/syntax.sls#L26 2014-06-24T14:18:23Z ijp: the fact that I wrote that seems to imply I did know racket didn't do this at one point 2014-06-24T14:18:33Z ijp: hmm, what an awkward sentence 2014-06-24T14:19:42Z W-Crusher: ijp, yeah, I have basically half of (srf :1) re-implemented to portably work on syntax objects rather than lists. 2014-06-24T14:20:16Z ijp: that's absurd 2014-06-24T14:20:18Z W-Crusher: That's not really the point, the point is that the standard seems to be wrongly phrased. 2014-06-24T14:20:21Z W-Crusher: Why? 2014-06-24T14:20:24Z ijp: convert, don't rewrite 2014-06-24T14:20:32Z ijp: because it's way less work 2014-06-24T14:21:04Z ijp: but suit yourself 2014-06-24T14:21:17Z W-Crusher: Well, then your code will contain repetitive cases of (find p? (syntax->list stx)) which first iterates through it converting it, and then again to find it. 2014-06-24T14:21:39Z W-Crusher: Rather than (stx:find p? stx) which goes through it only once and isn't that verbose 2014-06-24T14:21:54Z ijp: yes, my compile times are suffering 2014-06-24T14:22:02Z W-Crusher: Especially when you need to convert it back. 2014-06-24T14:22:08Z W-Crusher: It's about the principle. 2014-06-24T14:22:11Z W-Crusher: I demand perfection 2014-06-24T14:22:18Z ijp snorts 2014-06-24T14:22:55Z W-Crusher: Old chap, I put rms to shame, I demand perfection from myself and those around me, and I shall receive it. 2014-06-24T14:23:16Z arbscht joined #scheme 2014-06-24T14:23:18Z W-Crusher: Hence I'm actually using capitals and terminal punctuation on IRC. Notice the perfection. 2014-06-24T14:23:34Z ijp: "perfection" 2014-06-24T14:24:50Z W-Crusher: Perfection 2014-06-24T14:25:15Z W-Crusher: which obviously entails a bunch of tubes sticking out of your head and green-ish skin. 2014-06-24T14:25:27Z W-Crusher: For some reason it also entails cleavage and high heals but we'll roll with the idea. 2014-06-24T14:32:55Z DrDuck joined #scheme 2014-06-24T14:33:51Z DrDuck: Hey guys. Just wanted to see if anyone had any advice to give for how to approach sicp 2.82: https://mitpress.mit.edu/sicp/full-text/book/book-Z-H-18.html#%_thm_2.82 2014-06-24T14:39:45Z yrdz quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2014-06-24T14:41:15Z Rodya_ joined #scheme 2014-06-24T14:46:26Z kazimir42 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-24T14:48:15Z guampa quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-06-24T14:51:11Z impaktor: DrDuck: http://telegraphics.com.au/svn/puzzles/trunk/sicp/ 2014-06-24T14:51:18Z impaktor: or http://eli.thegreenplace.net/category/programming/lisp/sicp/ 2014-06-24T14:51:30Z impaktor: or https://wqzhang.wordpress.com/sicp-solutions/ 2014-06-24T14:51:38Z ijp: DrDuck: which part of the question are you having trouble with? 2014-06-24T14:52:15Z ijp: for the second part, keep in mind the order in which things are coerced 2014-06-24T14:52:23Z phax joined #scheme 2014-06-24T14:52:32Z DrDuck: impaktor: I don't want to look at a solution. I just want to talk about it. 2014-06-24T14:53:10Z DrDuck: ijp: The strategy they mention sounds like it could work. I haven't actually written an apply-generic solution, yet but 2014-06-24T14:53:18Z rszeno quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2014-06-24T14:53:42Z DrDuck: ijp: I guess it would be a good idea to try to convert every type to arg1's type. If they can be converted, roll with that and check to see if there's an operation for all of the converted types. If it doesn't work, convert all of the types to argument 2, and so on and so forth 2014-06-24T14:54:06Z DrDuck: If none of the arguments can be converted to the same type, after the type of the last argument has been checked, and there's no operation for those types, exit with an error 2014-06-24T14:54:25Z DrDuck: That could take O(n) time and be a reasonable way to go about this, right? 2014-06-24T14:54:58Z ijp: er, you've just repeated the question. sans the part where it asks you why it isn't sufficiently general 2014-06-24T14:56:34Z DrDuck: I thought they mean't converting each type to the first, and not checking if there is a procedure for the converted types stored in a table, but finally checking when they've converted everything to the last type haha 2014-06-24T14:56:47Z DrDuck: Okay. Welp misinterpreted that. 2014-06-24T14:57:03Z DrDuck: How could it not work in the general case then? 2014-06-24T14:57:09Z yrdz joined #scheme 2014-06-24T14:59:09Z DrDuck: The only other way I could think of doing it is having some data about the relationship of all types stored somewhere beforehand, and converting every type to the, uhm, supermost supertype 2014-06-24T14:59:34Z ijp: why do you *need* to conver them all to the same type? 2014-06-24T15:01:04Z DrDuck: ijp: to check and see if there's an operation available, and then execute the operation on the arguments all converted to one type 2014-06-24T15:02:03Z ijp: what if you have entries in the function table that work on different types? 2014-06-24T15:03:22Z ijp: look, I have to go, I'll check back with you in an hour or so 2014-06-24T15:03:30Z DrDuck: that's no good. it wouldn't work the way i've described. 2014-06-24T15:03:32Z DrDuck: oh ok 2014-06-24T15:03:39Z theseb joined #scheme 2014-06-24T15:03:59Z DrDuck: I could check if there is an operation on the type i'm to be converting the rest of the arguments to first 2014-06-24T15:04:12Z DrDuck: and then if there is, attempt to convert the rest of the arguments! 2014-06-24T15:04:35Z atomx joined #scheme 2014-06-24T15:04:46Z DrDuck: if there isn't an operation, or if the rest of the arguments can't be converted to this type, then i move on to the next type 2014-06-24T15:04:50Z DrDuck: :O 2014-06-24T15:06:45Z impaktor quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2014-06-24T15:09:47Z impaktor joined #scheme 2014-06-24T15:14:44Z FracV quit (Quit: leaving) 2014-06-24T15:16:18Z Kruppe quit (Quit: ZNC - http://znc.in) 2014-06-24T15:17:50Z Kruppe joined #scheme 2014-06-24T15:22:24Z george2 joined #scheme 2014-06-24T15:31:27Z atomx quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-06-24T15:34:44Z atomx joined #scheme 2014-06-24T15:37:00Z jusss joined #scheme 2014-06-24T15:37:04Z jusss quit (Changing host) 2014-06-24T15:37:05Z jusss joined #scheme 2014-06-24T15:48:20Z FracV joined #scheme 2014-06-24T15:48:20Z FracV quit (Client Quit) 2014-06-24T15:56:46Z ddp quit (Quit: ddp) 2014-06-24T16:00:20Z racycle joined #scheme 2014-06-24T16:03:43Z ddp joined #scheme 2014-06-24T16:04:14Z nanashi`` joined #scheme 2014-06-24T16:06:16Z MichaelRaskin quit (Quit: MichaelRaskin) 2014-06-24T16:06:27Z daviid joined #scheme 2014-06-24T16:06:36Z b4283 quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2014-06-24T16:08:49Z nanashi` quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-06-24T16:09:16Z civodul quit (Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)) 2014-06-24T16:09:29Z jusss quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-24T16:19:12Z jeapostrophe quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2014-06-24T16:19:49Z b4283 joined #scheme 2014-06-24T16:20:38Z jewel quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-24T16:20:47Z ddp quit (Quit: ddp) 2014-06-24T16:21:03Z daviid quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-24T16:25:08Z ANGRYSTEVE quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-06-24T16:25:26Z ANGRYSTEVE joined #scheme 2014-06-24T16:28:54Z jeapostrophe joined #scheme 2014-06-24T16:28:54Z jeapostrophe quit (Changing host) 2014-06-24T16:28:54Z jeapostrophe joined #scheme 2014-06-24T16:32:32Z hiroakip joined #scheme 2014-06-24T16:34:11Z ehaliewicz joined #scheme 2014-06-24T16:34:37Z BitPuffin quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2014-06-24T16:35:18Z guampa joined #scheme 2014-06-24T16:40:59Z civodul joined #scheme 2014-06-24T16:43:27Z daviid joined #scheme 2014-06-24T16:47:17Z hiroakip quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2014-06-24T17:01:11Z developernotes quit (Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. 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There will probably be a distinct persistent set type as well. 2014-06-24T20:54:37Z jcowan: ijp: Indeed 2014-06-24T20:55:32Z ddp joined #scheme 2014-06-24T20:55:42Z _leb joined #scheme 2014-06-24T20:59:10Z jcowan: As in SRFI 1, the linear update version may (rather than must) mutate the set argument, so you have to use the returned value rather than relying on the update. 2014-06-24T20:59:29Z BitPuffin joined #scheme 2014-06-24T21:00:10Z davexunit quit (Quit: Later) 2014-06-24T21:03:05Z bokr joined #scheme 2014-06-24T21:03:20Z jeapostrophe quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2014-06-24T21:10:08Z necronian quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-24T21:18:22Z ehaliewi` joined #scheme 2014-06-24T21:20:15Z langmartin quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2014-06-24T21:21:31Z ehaliewicz quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2014-06-24T21:23:08Z ddp quit (Quit: ddp) 2014-06-24T21:28:35Z ivan\ joined #scheme 2014-06-24T21:32:05Z renopt joined #scheme 2014-06-24T21:35:53Z civodul quit (Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)) 2014-06-24T21:42:09Z matheus23 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-24T21:45:01Z jeapostrophe joined #scheme 2014-06-24T21:45:01Z jeapostrophe quit (Changing host) 2014-06-24T21:45:01Z jeapostrophe joined #scheme 2014-06-24T21:46:17Z BitPuffin is now known as FowlSucks 2014-06-24T21:46:26Z FowlSucks is now known as BitPuffin 2014-06-24T21:48:28Z theseb quit (Quit: Leaving) 2014-06-24T21:50:43Z visualshock quit (Quit: Leaving) 2014-06-24T22:00:18Z sheilong quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2014-06-24T22:03:15Z developernotes quit (Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com) 2014-06-24T22:03:17Z ASau joined #scheme 2014-06-24T22:12:33Z arbscht quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-24T22:14:08Z _leb quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.) 2014-06-24T22:14:31Z oleo is now known as Guest68618 2014-06-24T22:15:55Z oleo__ joined #scheme 2014-06-24T22:16:16Z bokr quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2014-06-24T22:17:54Z Guest68618 quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2014-06-24T22:20:12Z jeapostrophe quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-06-24T22:25:03Z jshjsh quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2014-06-24T22:27:57Z jshjsh joined #scheme 2014-06-24T22:30:09Z arbscht joined #scheme 2014-06-24T22:32:21Z pnkfelix quit (Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 24.3.1) 2014-06-24T22:38:46Z necronian joined #scheme 2014-06-24T22:48:45Z jshjsh2 joined #scheme 2014-06-24T22:50:42Z jshjsh quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2014-06-24T22:57:24Z Sgeo_ joined #scheme 2014-06-24T22:59:49Z amgarchIn9 quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-06-24T23:01:04Z kvda joined #scheme 2014-06-24T23:04:02Z mrowe_away is now known as mrowe 2014-06-24T23:07:58Z jeapostrophe joined #scheme 2014-06-24T23:07:58Z jeapostrophe quit (Changing host) 2014-06-24T23:07:58Z jeapostrophe joined #scheme 2014-06-24T23:23:09Z jeapostrophe quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-24T23:24:27Z jeapostrophe joined #scheme 2014-06-24T23:24:27Z jeapostrophe quit (Changing host) 2014-06-24T23:24:27Z jeapostrophe joined #scheme 2014-06-24T23:30:37Z arrubin joined #scheme 2014-06-24T23:32:16Z ohama joined #scheme 2014-06-24T23:46:30Z daviid quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2014-06-24T23:54:27Z groovy2shoes joined #scheme 2014-06-24T23:59:47Z niklasl2 quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-06-25T00:01:49Z kvda quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2014-06-25T00:05:16Z niklasl joined #scheme 2014-06-25T00:05:51Z jeapostrophe quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2014-06-25T00:08:13Z tcsc joined #scheme 2014-06-25T00:09:24Z _leb joined #scheme 2014-06-25T00:12:51Z jeapostrophe joined #scheme 2014-06-25T00:12:51Z jeapostrophe quit (Changing host) 2014-06-25T00:12:51Z jeapostrophe joined #scheme 2014-06-25T00:14:45Z _leb quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.) 2014-06-25T00:19:08Z GGMethos: what's the differences between racket and scheme? 2014-06-25T00:25:04Z leb joined #scheme 2014-06-25T00:43:43Z jcowan: Racket began as a specific implementation of Scheme (which is more of a family of languages than a single language). 2014-06-25T00:44:25Z jcowan: The authors have pretty much pursued an independent path since then, hence the rename from "PLT Scheme" to "Racket". 2014-06-25T00:45:30Z jcowan: On the other hand, Racket is also an implementation platform on which many languages, dialects of Scheme or not, can be and have been written. 2014-06-25T00:58:41Z racycle quit (Quit: ZZZzzz…) 2014-06-25T01:09:56Z leb quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.) 2014-06-25T01:11:30Z _leb joined #scheme 2014-06-25T01:25:07Z Riastradh: jcowan: SYN 2014-06-25T01:30:00Z ddp joined #scheme 2014-06-25T01:30:04Z jcowan: Riastradh: ACK 2014-06-25T01:30:08Z jcowan: I saw your blag posting. 2014-06-25T01:37:12Z kvda joined #scheme 2014-06-25T01:40:39Z jcowan: Riastradh: SYN 2014-06-25T01:43:26Z vraaid joined #scheme 2014-06-25T01:47:33Z vraid quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2014-06-25T01:58:24Z Riastradh: jcowan, SYN/ACK. I noticed your RSS feed of my blag has the wrong copyright statement -- can you fix it? (Also, at least in Firefox it renders with no paragraph breaks or sensible block quotations. I wonder whether there's a good way to do that in the RSS XML format.) 2014-06-25T01:59:48Z Riastradh: (or whatever the format is, I didn't look closely) 2014-06-25T02:03:15Z jcowan: I don't make any attempt to format it. I should probably convert it to Atom instead of RSS. 2014-06-25T02:03:26Z b4283 joined #scheme 2014-06-25T02:04:44Z jcowan: I've fixed the copyright notice, not that it actually matters; your copyright will expire 70 years after your death no matter when the works were written. 2014-06-25T02:05:01Z jcowan: Consequently, Google no longer routinely updates the copyright dates on, e.g., its source code. 2014-06-25T02:11:33Z Riastradh: Hmm... The copying terms aren't included in blag.xml now, and the subtitle is no longer there in the original. 2014-06-25T02:12:22Z tcsc quit (Quit: bye!) 2014-06-25T02:12:59Z Riastradh: Any thoughts on the post? It was much too long-winded for so inconsequential a little issue as that, but the issue was bugging me. 2014-06-25T02:19:34Z ddp quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-06-25T02:19:49Z ddp joined #scheme 2014-06-25T02:21:04Z Riastradh: Gotta run! 2014-06-25T02:21:06Z Riastradh: *poof* 2014-06-25T02:23:18Z jcowan: Riastradh: I wanted to compare it with the discussion in CLL, but haven't had a chance to yet. 2014-06-25T02:23:44Z jcowan: I agree that you want a uniform distribution of [0,1] as approximated by the floats, not a u.d. of the floats in [0,1]. 2014-06-25T02:26:15Z frkout joined #scheme 2014-06-25T02:29:18Z yrdz quit (Quit: WeeChat 0.4.3) 2014-06-25T02:29:26Z ddp quit (Quit: ddp) 2014-06-25T02:29:33Z vraaid is now known as vraid 2014-06-25T02:31:29Z frkout_ joined #scheme 2014-06-25T02:34:39Z frkout quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-25T02:51:34Z Shadox quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-06-25T02:51:34Z Shadox joined #scheme 2014-06-25T02:51:49Z pnkfelix joined #scheme 2014-06-25T02:51:50Z arrubin quit (Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com) 2014-06-25T02:59:09Z jeapostrophe quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-25T03:02:08Z frkout_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-06-25T03:02:27Z frkout joined #scheme 2014-06-25T03:17:25Z racycle joined #scheme 2014-06-25T03:28:29Z REPLeffect quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-06-25T03:38:13Z jeapostrophe joined #scheme 2014-06-25T03:38:13Z jeapostrophe quit (Changing host) 2014-06-25T03:38:13Z jeapostrophe joined #scheme 2014-06-25T03:38:35Z frkout quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-25T03:39:07Z frkout joined #scheme 2014-06-25T03:41:43Z REPLeffect joined #scheme 2014-06-25T03:43:37Z jeapostrophe quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-06-25T03:52:48Z rins joined #scheme 2014-06-25T03:53:00Z pnkfelix quit (Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 24.3.1) 2014-06-25T03:55:47Z jcowan quit (Quit: Leaving) 2014-06-25T03:57:09Z cdidd_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-25T04:09:07Z whitglint joined #scheme 2014-06-25T04:09:40Z petercommand joined #scheme 2014-06-25T04:12:54Z kilimanjaro joined #scheme 2014-06-25T04:13:20Z cdidd_ joined #scheme 2014-06-25T04:14:45Z groovy2shoes quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2014-06-25T04:38:49Z Rodya_ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-06-25T04:44:44Z AkashicLegend quit (Quit: AkashicLegend) 2014-06-25T05:01:44Z oleo__ quit (Quit: Verlassend) 2014-06-25T05:02:09Z rins quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-25T05:11:26Z _leb quit (Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com) 2014-06-25T05:17:27Z Rptx quit (Quit: gonna sleep!) 2014-06-25T05:18:00Z racycle quit (Quit: ZZZzzz…) 2014-06-25T05:32:44Z MichaelRaskin joined #scheme 2014-06-25T06:03:09Z Okasu joined #scheme 2014-06-25T06:05:21Z Shadox quit (Quit: Leaving) 2014-06-25T06:32:58Z impaktor: Hello lispers. I want to read the last line from a file with two columns. I guess the read-line function doesn't do that. I'm trying to understand a sane way to do that on. What I've got so far is: http://paste.lisp.org/display/142996 2014-06-25T06:33:38Z impaktor: But it only reads the last word/number in the last column of the last line. 2014-06-25T06:34:19Z impaktor: Is the code sane, or is there some standard way of doing this? 2014-06-25T06:45:22Z pjb: It's sane. It could be more efficient if your implementation provided direct access I/O, ie. seek(2). 2014-06-25T06:45:31Z pjb: Then you could read the file "backward". 2014-06-25T06:46:27Z pjb: impaktor: well, read doesn't read a line, it reads a lisp object. 2014-06-25T06:46:32Z kazimir42 joined #scheme 2014-06-25T06:46:37Z wingo joined #scheme 2014-06-25T06:46:49Z pjb: you want to implement read-line using read-char, and once you've read the last line of the file, you want to parse the columns in it. 2014-06-25T06:47:59Z W-Crusher: impaktor, the read function reads external reps of Scheme data. 2014-06-25T06:48:07Z W-Crusher: Not strings 2014-06-25T06:48:20Z W-Crusher: Or lines. 2014-06-25T06:48:31Z pjb: impaktor: for example, if the first column of the first line contains ( and only the last column of the last line contains ), the read will read and parse the whole file. 2014-06-25T06:48:47Z W-Crusher: There's 'get-line' which is what you call read-line I guess 2014-06-25T06:48:53Z W-Crusher: Yeah 2014-06-25T06:49:24Z pjb: No, there's no get-line in r5rs. The only function whose name starts with a #\g in r5rs is gcd. 2014-06-25T06:50:11Z ivan\ quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2014-06-25T06:52:33Z impaktor: pjb: thanks. I think I'll have a go at my own read-one-line using read-char. I'm curently using Guile. 2014-06-25T06:53:51Z impaktor: W-Crusher: yeah, I'll use get-line. (I'm replying as I read the backlog) 2014-06-25T06:53:58Z W-Crusher: pjb, where was r6rs mentioned? 2014-06-25T06:54:01Z W-Crusher: r5* 2014-06-25T06:54:06Z impaktor: HA. No get-line. OK 2014-06-25T06:54:25Z W-Crusher: No, r5 doesn't have it, r6 does I believe 2014-06-25T06:54:37Z impaktor: I'll stick with r5 for now. 2014-06-25T06:54:52Z impaktor: thanks. 2014-06-25T06:57:00Z kvda quit (Quit: x___x) 2014-06-25T06:57:04Z taylanub is mad at r6rs for not having `include' 2014-06-25T06:57:47Z ijp: taylanub: it's there (as an example in the syntax-case section) 2014-06-25T06:57:50Z W-Crusher: Doesn't r6rs have an exmaple of how to implement texual includes in terms of a macro. 2014-06-25T06:57:52Z W-Crusher: Yeah 2014-06-25T06:58:24Z taylanub: ijp: that one has the issue that the current-directory is not well defined IIRC, I tried to use it ... 2014-06-25T06:58:39Z ijp: it has other issues 2014-06-25T06:59:30Z ivan\ joined #scheme 2014-06-25T06:59:50Z taylanub: (hrm, I think the issue was that there's no portable way to have file operations within it work relatively to the file it's used in) 2014-06-25T07:00:26Z taylanub: it's the only way to make several library wrappers for one's code in this portability mess :( 2014-06-25T07:00:35Z taylanub: well I could use autotools or something 2014-06-25T07:01:45Z ANGRYSTEVE joined #scheme 2014-06-25T07:04:19Z taylanub: as it stands I ended up not making different lib wrappers for all components of my program, instead made r7 libs for the core parts that could be implemented in r7, an r6 lib for an extension relying on an r6-only feature, and two Guile modules for extensions relying on Guile-specific features. waiting for Guile's R7RS compliance to be finished to test it out 2014-06-25T07:05:01Z taylanub: I suppose it should be fine like this, expecting an implementation to support R7RS-small too if they support R6RS (since the latter is bigger...) 2014-06-25T07:09:18Z taylanub: need to update the README https://gitorious.org/taylan-guile/bytestructures/source/93726a9c40b96e66410be6a521ef399fcf4bb268: 2014-06-25T07:09:18Z rudybot: http://tinyurl.com/lmyxbsv 2014-06-25T07:09:21Z mrowe is now known as mrowe_away 2014-06-25T07:34:35Z jewel joined #scheme 2014-06-25T07:48:51Z guampa quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-06-25T07:50:10Z guampa joined #scheme 2014-06-25T07:56:33Z yacks quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2014-06-25T08:02:36Z BitPuffin quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2014-06-25T08:08:19Z c74d quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-25T08:10:40Z ehaliewi` quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-25T08:12:08Z c74d joined #scheme 2014-06-25T08:15:08Z spaceotter joined #scheme 2014-06-25T08:19:30Z vraid quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2014-06-25T08:20:19Z FracV joined #scheme 2014-06-25T08:32:07Z ijp quit (Quit: This ijp has ended peacefully) 2014-06-25T08:42:10Z ASau quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-25T08:42:56Z impaktor: Is the last #\newline in a document followed by an eof-object? 2014-06-25T08:53:06Z BitPuffin joined #scheme 2014-06-25T08:54:34Z taylanub: impaktor: newlines are characters in a file. eof objects are not in files, they are returned by input procedures to indicate "the input I was reading ended" 2014-06-25T08:56:04Z taylanub: specifically, they are *not* the end-of-file ASCII character 2014-06-25T08:57:20Z impaktor: I have a get-line function now, returning everything up to the \newline char. Problem is, I don't know when I've read the last line, since it stops just before the #\newline char. 2014-06-25T08:58:07Z taylanub: impaktor: your procedure should not only stop on newlines, but also when read-char returns an eof object. and I guess at the next call to your procedure it should return an eof object itself 2014-06-25T08:58:59Z taylanub: note that this would mean that a user using your procedure won't be able to differentiate between two files that are identical except that one has a newline as the last character and the other doesn't 2014-06-25T08:59:50Z taylanub: another option you have is to *expect* files to end in newlines, and throw an exception if they don't, but that's probably sub-optimal 2014-06-25T09:00:12Z impaktor: thanks. 2014-06-25T09:01:47Z pjdelport: EOF EOLs are a persistent niggle. 2014-06-25T09:02:04Z pjdelport: Some text editors always write them; some don't. 2014-06-25T09:02:32Z vraid joined #scheme 2014-06-25T09:04:05Z impaktor: I tried to peek-char beyond the last #\newline but that was not the eof-object. 2014-06-25T09:04:40Z taylanub: it comes to my attention that ASCII has no "EOF" character, ^D is instead called "EOT" aka end-of-transmission 2014-06-25T09:05:52Z LeoNerd: ASCII also has all of FILE SEPARATOR, GROUP SEPARATOR, RECORD SEPARATOR, UNIT SEPARATOR, but nobody ever uses those 2014-06-25T09:05:57Z taylanub: impaktor: that probably means there's more characters after that newline 2014-06-25T09:06:14Z LeoNerd: CSV files would be -soooo- much nicer and easier to handle if everyone used US and RS instead of comma and linefeed 2014-06-25T09:06:32Z impaktor: So the get-line function should have a state remembering if it should return a eof on the next call. Feels a bit wonky. 2014-06-25T09:07:22Z taylanub: impaktor: no, you could just return an eof object if the first read-char call returns eof 2014-06-25T09:07:57Z pjdelport: ASCII EOF was ^Z in CP/M. (That's where DOS and Windows got it from.) 2014-06-25T09:08:10Z pjdelport: CP/M actually used it to mark the end of the file on disk. 2014-06-25T09:10:29Z bokr joined #scheme 2014-06-25T09:11:01Z impaktor: taylanub: that sounds smarter. 2014-06-25T09:12:13Z vraaid joined #scheme 2014-06-25T09:12:23Z vraid quit (Disconnected by services) 2014-06-25T09:12:26Z vraaid is now known as vraid 2014-06-25T09:27:50Z impaktor: Since eof-object isn't a char, then given a file that does not end with a newline, what would be the last char? 2014-06-25T09:28:08Z impaktor: I suspect I'm being a bit slow in the head right now. 2014-06-25T09:28:12Z taylanub: impaktor: any char can be the last char 2014-06-25T09:29:11Z taylanub: files are just arrays of bytes .. though interpreting them in a given character set yields an array of characters instead 2014-06-25T09:29:29Z taylanub: a (normal) file is more or less a string really 2014-06-25T09:30:28Z taylanub: (with "normal" I mean stuff like "device" or other special "files" under Unix don't count, those can be endless streams for example, or simply contain no bytes, e.g. a directory) 2014-06-25T09:30:35Z z0d quit (*.net *.split) 2014-06-25T09:30:35Z brendyn quit (*.net *.split) 2014-06-25T09:31:01Z leo2007 quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-06-25T09:31:04Z taylanub: (or can one 'open' a directory for reading bytes under POSIX?) 2014-06-25T09:32:45Z taylanub: (ugh, apparently one can, screw Unix and its silly "everything is a file" non-rule that's broken all the time :P) 2014-06-25T09:33:26Z yacks joined #scheme 2014-06-25T09:35:40Z Riastradh: The results are not defined by POSIX and implementations are not required to support reading directory file descriptors. 2014-06-25T09:36:43Z Riastradh: What you can do with a directory file descriptor opened O_RDONLY is pass it to fdopendir in order to read entries with readdir. 2014-06-25T09:38:15Z jshjsh2 quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2014-06-25T09:41:25Z Riastradh: What you can also do 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see anything wrong with looking at others SICP solutions whenever you're stuck? That's not really cheating, right? 2014-06-25T17:00:59Z pjdelport: DrDuck: It's only cheating if it's a competition. 2014-06-25T17:03:01Z DrDuck: pjdelport: All I want to do is learn the material, do as many exercises as I can, finish the book, then move on to PAIP. :D 2014-06-25T17:03:23Z AkashicLegend joined #scheme 2014-06-25T17:11:40Z DrDuck: pjdelport: I wonder how many people have actually done every exercise in this book without any help. 2014-06-25T17:13:42Z DrDuck: I can only think of one person on the web who's done every single problem. 2014-06-25T17:14:56Z pjdelport: DrDuck: For learning, looking at other solutions should be a requirement, for contrasting and comparing. 2014-06-25T17:17:10Z pjdelport: Though it's obviously good to test yourself by not just glancing at answers and perhaps fooling yourself into thinking you fully understand them when you might actually not. 2014-06-25T17:17:23Z pjdelport: Deriving them can bring its own insights. 2014-06-25T17:19:44Z DrDuck: yep you're right, pjdelport 2014-06-25T17:20:02Z DrDuck: the way i see it, i don't think it's possible to get through sicp without some kind of help 2014-06-25T17:20:31Z DrDuck: the only guy on the internet to do all the exercises and post his solutions up is here: https://github.com/skanev/playground/tree/master/scheme/sicp 2014-06-25T17:20:40Z DrDuck: and even this guy started off in a group study 2014-06-25T17:20:49Z DrDuck: so i wont worry so much 2014-06-25T17:21:32Z DrDuck: since the goal is learning, like you said 2014-06-25T17:22:29Z Okasu quit (Quit: leaving) 2014-06-25T17:28:10Z b4283 quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2014-06-25T17:31:52Z amgarchIn9 quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-06-25T17:40:24Z amgarchIn9 joined #scheme 2014-06-25T17:47:49Z BitPuffin quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-06-25T17:51:27Z pnkfelix quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-06-25T17:58:28Z daviid joined #scheme 2014-06-25T17:58:32Z amgarchIn9 quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-06-25T18:02:49Z vraid joined #scheme 2014-06-25T18:03:07Z Riastradh joined #scheme 2014-06-25T18:06:46Z aranhoide joined #scheme 2014-06-25T18:08:59Z amgarchIn9 joined #scheme 2014-06-25T18:10:50Z developernotes quit (Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. 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scheme is a family of languages, which are the common ones used? what is the one used in SICP called? 2014-06-26T00:34:33Z groovy2shoes: GGMethos: the first edition used MIT Scheme, the second was updated to conform to the IEEE standard (which was based on R4RS but R5RS was backwards compatible with IEEE) 2014-06-26T00:34:50Z racycle_ joined #scheme 2014-06-26T00:35:01Z groovy2shoes: GGMethos: Racket is a common non-standard dialect 2014-06-26T00:35:49Z racycle quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-06-26T00:37:13Z visualshock joined #scheme 2014-06-26T00:42:25Z jeapostrophe quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-06-26T00:43:21Z arrubin joined #scheme 2014-06-26T00:49:26Z rins joined #scheme 2014-06-26T00:56:34Z mrowe is now known as mrowe_away 2014-06-26T00:57:16Z racycle_ quit (Quit: ZZZzzz…) 2014-06-26T01:00:33Z amgarchIn9 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-26T01:01:47Z _will_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-26T01:01:54Z _will_ joined #scheme 2014-06-26T01:03:07Z DGASAU quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-06-26T01:03:15Z pjdelport: GGMethos: MIT Scheme goes with SICP most closely, although Racket also has a language definition that targets SICP. 2014-06-26T01:03:56Z pjdelport: GGMethos: You might like http://wingolog.org/archives/2013/01/07/an-opinionated-guide-to-scheme-implementations 2014-06-26T01:03:57Z rudybot: http://tinyurl.com/b3fjhzx 2014-06-26T01:04:06Z pjdelport: GGMethos: or http://community.schemewiki.org/?scheme-faq-standards#implementations for a much bigger list 2014-06-26T01:06:24Z xyh joined #scheme 2014-06-26T01:11:49Z daviid quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-06-26T01:16:58Z Khisanth quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2014-06-26T01:17:54Z Khisanth joined #scheme 2014-06-26T01:19:38Z Sgeo quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-26T01:19:59Z Sgeo joined #scheme 2014-06-26T01:22:46Z leo2007 joined #scheme 2014-06-26T01:27:33Z george2 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-26T01:27:48Z GGMethos: ah thank you. so the current standard is r6rs? 2014-06-26T01:30:44Z groovy2shoes: GGMethos: r7rs-small (the first "half" of the latest standard) was finalized fairly recently, but there's been some controversy around it like there was with r6rs 2014-06-26T01:31:08Z groovy2shoes: GGMethos: r5rs seems to have the widest support, but it's up to you what you want to use, really... there are lots of good implementations 2014-06-26T01:32:24Z groovy2shoes: If you're just starting out, I recommend starting with Racket; it's got good documentation, a decent IDE, and lots of libraries. 2014-06-26T01:42:30Z davexunit quit (Quit: Later) 2014-06-26T01:43:57Z yacks quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-06-26T01:47:42Z xyh: 5 6 7 schemer's tragedy ... 2014-06-26T01:49:35Z pyro-: groovy2shoes: what kind of controversy was that? 2014-06-26T01:53:28Z groovy2shoes: pyro-: some schemers disagreed with r7rs being deliberately backwards-incompatible with r6rs, in terms of the features that were kept (especially modules) 2014-06-26T01:56:41Z yacks joined #scheme 2014-06-26T02:04:37Z phax joined #scheme 2014-06-26T02:05:36Z frkout quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-06-26T02:06:13Z frkout joined #scheme 2014-06-26T02:07:27Z Riastradh quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-06-26T02:07:59Z Riastradh joined #scheme 2014-06-26T02:08:18Z b4283 joined #scheme 2014-06-26T02:08:55Z tcsc joined #scheme 2014-06-26T02:13:31Z GGMethos: ah alright 2014-06-26T02:13:39Z GGMethos: racket does seem nice 2014-06-26T02:16:44Z frkout_ joined #scheme 2014-06-26T02:17:10Z frkout_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-06-26T02:17:38Z frkout_ joined #scheme 2014-06-26T02:19:12Z frkout quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-26T02:19:28Z mjreed joined #scheme 2014-06-26T02:27:25Z rins quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-06-26T02:28:23Z duggiefresh joined #scheme 2014-06-26T02:35:25Z xyh left #scheme 2014-06-26T02:38:08Z vinleod joined #scheme 2014-06-26T02:41:11Z aretecode 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I looked into the record system and it actually seemed very nice, just highly sophisticated. don't remember where else the r6rs invented its own alternatives to existing SRFIs... 2014-06-26T07:58:15Z rtra quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2014-06-26T08:04:52Z rtra joined #scheme 2014-06-26T08:06:11Z Okasu quit (Quit: leaving) 2014-06-26T08:07:54Z SoulSeek139: if I have a (permute lst) function, what's the best way to have lisp do the work only once for a given list size, such that I can pass bindings to the generated expansion later? 2014-06-26T08:08:14Z yacks quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2014-06-26T08:09:22Z BitPuffin quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-06-26T08:12:29Z atomx joined #scheme 2014-06-26T08:21:51Z ASau quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-26T08:22:33Z ASau joined #scheme 2014-06-26T08:26:42Z vraid quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2014-06-26T08:29:51Z ASau quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2014-06-26T08:33:42Z daviid quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-26T08:37:31Z yacks joined #scheme 2014-06-26T08:53:07Z fridim_ quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-06-26T08:55:37Z Okasu joined #scheme 2014-06-26T09:05:22Z BitPuffin joined #scheme 2014-06-26T09:18:16Z vraid joined #scheme 2014-06-26T09:19:15Z ijp joined #scheme 2014-06-26T09:35:12Z fridim_ joined #scheme 2014-06-26T09:43:20Z taylanub quit (Disconnected by services) 2014-06-26T09:43:49Z taylanub joined #scheme 2014-06-26T09:44:03Z Sgeo_ joined #scheme 2014-06-26T09:44:17Z pjb: SoulSeek139: search for memoization 2014-06-26T09:47:42Z Sgeo quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-26T10:02:17Z Sgeo joined #scheme 2014-06-26T10:05:42Z Sgeo_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-26T10:10:30Z pjdelport: SoulSeek139: Can you explain in more detail? 2014-06-26T10:10:38Z ANGRYSTEVE joined #scheme 2014-06-26T10:10:58Z pjdelport: What do you mean by "work for a given list size"? 2014-06-26T10:11:54Z pjb: you memoize (permutations (iota (length lst))) so that you can generate permutations of any lst as (map (lambda (i) (elt lst (elt memoized-permutation i))) lst). 2014-06-26T10:12:28Z pjb: well, (map (lambda (i) (elt lst (elt memoized-permutation i))) (iota (length lst))) 2014-06-26T10:17:39Z pjdelport: pjb: That doesn't really make sense, though... the number of permutations for any non-trivial length is gigantic. 2014-06-26T10:18:02Z pjb: Of course. But that's what's asked. I don't question the questions… 2014-06-26T10:18:06Z pjdelport: Trying to memoize it is probably way more expensive than just generating in place. 2014-06-26T10:18:33Z pjb: Perhaps I'm too old, I've stopped trying to stop idiocy. 2014-06-26T10:19:06Z pjdelport: They could have just meant something different. :) 2014-06-26T10:19:14Z pjdelport: hence asking 2014-06-26T10:38:07Z gravicappa joined #scheme 2014-06-26T11:04:06Z bokr joined #scheme 2014-06-26T11:05:46Z b4283 quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2014-06-26T11:07:25Z NinjaPenguin joined #scheme 2014-06-26T11:12:23Z KrazyCod3r joined #scheme 2014-06-26T11:13:10Z pjb` joined #scheme 2014-06-26T11:16:58Z KrazyCod3r quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2014-06-26T11:17:05Z pjb quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2014-06-26T11:33:05Z mrowe_away is now known as mrowe 2014-06-26T11:33:11Z davexunit joined #scheme 2014-06-26T11:42:39Z mrowe is now known as mrowe_away 2014-06-26T11:56:37Z Sgeo quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-06-26T12:09:55Z SoulSeek139: I could try saying I want a solver for ProjectEuler #49 that's scaleable subject to input & hardware (sequentially generate & mark-off permutations for each unique & prime n in 1 - 10^x ) but really I'm new to scheme and hunger for what's possible beyond what's conventional. So, thanks 'pj's~! 2014-06-26T12:10:12Z atomx quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-26T12:10:35Z visualshock joined #scheme 2014-06-26T12:13:24Z pjb` is now known as pjb 2014-06-26T12:17:07Z pjb: SoulSeek139: Since the length of the sequence is fixed in this problem, you could pre-compute at compilation time all the possible permutations, thus giving you a set of functions providing you with the possible permutations in O(1). Then run-time would be fast. 2014-06-26T12:17:32Z pjb: I don't remember if Project Euler takes into account compilation time. 2014-06-26T12:18:48Z davexunit quit (Quit: Later) 2014-06-26T12:26:06Z ijp: I'd say it's probably not in the spirit of the project 2014-06-26T12:26:43Z ijp: otherwise you could just do two projects, one computing it slowly, then a second program that just prints the answer 2014-06-26T12:30:47Z vraid: pjb: project euler doesn't take time into account at all 2014-06-26T12:31:18Z vraid: the problems are made so that a finished program using a correct algorithm can find the solution within a minute 2014-06-26T12:32:23Z vraid: if it takes 24 hours to run, you've still solved it, but perhaps you should reconsider the algorithm 2014-06-26T12:33:35Z b4283 joined #scheme 2014-06-26T12:36:39Z pjb: ijp: the spirit of project euler is to beat the clock, and they have usually problems that are not tuned in favor of lisp or scheme, but rather of C or C++. 2014-06-26T12:37:30Z pjb: or perhaps I'm confusing with another one. 2014-06-26T12:38:20Z pjb: In any case, generating a few permutation functions with a macro would be perfectly in lisp or scheme style, fuck the spirit of the project. 2014-06-26T12:40:47Z vraid: pjb: that doesn't sound like project euler 2014-06-26T12:43:57Z sheilong joined #scheme 2014-06-26T12:44:10Z jeapostrophe joined #scheme 2014-06-26T12:44:10Z jeapostrophe quit (Changing host) 2014-06-26T12:44:10Z jeapostrophe joined #scheme 2014-06-26T12:46:22Z taylanub takes note how annoying of a design flaw it is of certain OOP languages to support a distinct type of entity called "method" which (given it does dynamic dispatch) is actually just a specific type of function 2014-06-26T12:47:31Z sroy_ joined #scheme 2014-06-26T12:48:34Z taylanub: now whenever I want to map the method .foo() on the elements of an array, I have to do (pseudocode) theArray.map(fn(x){ return x.foo(); }) instead of simply theArray.map(foo) 2014-06-26T12:55:43Z BitPuffin quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-26T12:56:16Z Guthur joined #scheme 2014-06-26T12:56:36Z davexunit joined #scheme 2014-06-26T12:56:39Z Guthur left #scheme 2014-06-26T12:56:41Z jeapostrophe quit (Read error: Connection timed out) 2014-06-26T12:56:55Z jeapostrophe joined #scheme 2014-06-26T12:56:55Z jeapostrophe quit (Changing host) 2014-06-26T12:56:55Z jeapostrophe joined #scheme 2014-06-26T13:04:01Z ddp joined #scheme 2014-06-26T13:04:12Z ddp quit (Client Quit) 2014-06-26T13:04:28Z pjdelport: taylanub: Yay for Python's approach. :) 2014-06-26T13:05:21Z taylanub: pjdelport: generics? 2014-06-26T13:05:31Z pjdelport: (where that would be "map(X.foo, xs)", assuming isinstance(x, X)) 2014-06-26T13:05:46Z taylanub: aha 2014-06-26T13:08:43Z jeapostrophe quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-26T13:10:52Z pjdelport: taylanub: Python's class system is implemented on a nifty and generic underlying mechanism of descriptors, which implement slot access. 2014-06-26T13:12:24Z pjdelport: taylanub: Python functions/methods are just plain class attributes (no different than data attributes) that implement the descriptor protocol so that when you access them via an instance, you get an instance-bound method instead. 2014-06-26T13:12:40Z LeoNerd: instance-bound methods amuse me 2014-06-26T13:12:40Z pjdelport: Same for class methods, static methods, and others. 2014-06-26T13:12:47Z LeoNerd: They're basicaslly like tiny one-value closures 2014-06-26T13:13:08Z pjdelport: LeoNerd: Well, that's what OO is, isn't it? :) 2014-06-26T13:13:12Z LeoNerd: Because, youknow, -actual- closures would be far too useful and powerful to add... so they didn't do that. 2014-06-26T13:13:15Z pjdelport: (of this flavor) 2014-06-26T13:13:24Z LeoNerd: But lacking the ability to refer to "that method of this particular object", they invented the concept of a bound method 2014-06-26T13:13:26Z pjdelport: LeoNerd: Python has actual closures too, of course. 2014-06-26T13:13:59Z pjdelport: bound methods *are* how you "refer to that method of this particular object", in the first place. 2014-06-26T13:18:42Z phax joined #scheme 2014-06-26T13:18:55Z taylanub: pjdelport: isn't Python's 'lambda' expression crippled? 2014-06-26T13:20:23Z pjdelport: No? 2014-06-26T13:20:49Z arbscht quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-06-26T13:22:08Z pjdelport: taylanub: There's a meme where people interpret the fact that lambda only contains expressions as it being "crippled", but that's IMHO very silly. 2014-06-26T13:22:39Z pjdelport: Scheme's lambda can also only contain expressions (although Scheme doesn't have an additional syntax for statements). Haskell's lambda can also only contain expressions, and not things like data and other declarations which Haskell *does* have. 2014-06-26T13:22:57Z pjdelport: And you don't see people calling Haskell's lambda crippled. 2014-06-26T13:23:32Z taylanub: declarations are a different thing from statements like 'if' 2014-06-26T13:25:32Z pjdelport: "if" is a statement and an expression in Python. :)0 2014-06-26T13:25:37Z pjdelport: s/0// 2014-06-26T13:26:10Z taylanub: pjdelport: you could say the whole language is crippled due to the separation of statements and expressions, it's just that this shows itself only in places where statements aren't allowed, and a 'lambda' body is a notorious place to not allow statements, because you expect it to be a function body... 2014-06-26T13:26:20Z langmartin joined #scheme 2014-06-26T13:26:27Z pjdelport: Anyhow, the lambda keyword in Python is just a shorthand syntax for an anonymous one-expression def: there's nothing limited about Python's closures itself. 2014-06-26T13:26:46Z taylanub: anyway, I've never actually written Python, they seem to have their unique ways of doing things and limiting 'lambda' to expressions probably falls well into that... 2014-06-26T13:27:31Z pjdelport: taylanub: By that argument, statements are something to limit to procedures, not functions, surely? In which case Python's lambda is doing the right thing. :) 2014-06-26T13:27:53Z taylanub: "procedures, not functions"? 2014-06-26T13:28:27Z pjdelport: taylanub: In the informal sense of procedures as actions, functions as pure. 2014-06-26T13:29:55Z jeapostrophe joined #scheme 2014-06-26T13:29:55Z jeapostrophe quit (Changing host) 2014-06-26T13:29:55Z jeapostrophe joined #scheme 2014-06-26T13:30:44Z taylanub: expressions can express imperative actions perfectly well though.. 2014-06-26T13:32:57Z bokr quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2014-06-26T13:36:11Z developernotes joined #scheme 2014-06-26T13:45:17Z ijp quit (Quit: This ijp has ended peacefully) 2014-06-26T13:48:09Z vraaid joined #scheme 2014-06-26T13:48:15Z vraid quit (Disconnected by services) 2014-06-26T13:48:17Z vraaid is now known as vraid 2014-06-26T13:48:29Z asumu: Scheme's lambda allows definitions, which aren't expressions. 2014-06-26T13:49:26Z mario-goulart: pjdelport: python's closures don't allow you to write to outer variables. Unless you use python 3 with the nonlocal declaration. 2014-06-26T13:49:48Z mario-goulart: (I haven't read the whole backlog, so excuse me if I'm out of context) 2014-06-26T13:50:29Z LeoNerd: Yah.. that's mostly what I mean :) 2014-06-26T13:51:02Z LeoNerd: A language with mutable variables (well, "name bindings"), and closures, that just happens not to support mutating variables from within closures. Seems like an odd failing 2014-06-26T13:51:06Z pjdelport: mario-goulart: Python 3 is Python. :) 2014-06-26T13:51:22Z mario-goulart: pjdelport: Python 2 too. :-) 2014-06-26T13:51:27Z LeoNerd: Whenever I'm forced into that particular corner I usually do the one-element-array trick 2014-06-26T13:51:42Z LeoNerd: Works nicely in Java too :) 2014-06-26T13:51:43Z pjdelport: mario-goulart: And yeah, the "nonlocal" syntax was added in Python 3, but you can actually do it in Python 2 too using manual run-time reflection. 2014-06-26T13:52:08Z mario-goulart: Sure, there are many ways to work around that limitation. 2014-06-26T13:52:15Z LeoNerd: And you /can/ do closures in C using manual run-time reflection to inspect the caller's state on the stack 2014-06-26T13:52:20Z LeoNerd: It's just nice when your language does it for you :) 2014-06-26T13:52:20Z mario-goulart: But they are "workarounds". 2014-06-26T13:52:33Z pjdelport: (I know that doesn't really count, I'm just saying that the capability is there in Python 2 without the syntax, if you really want it.) 2014-06-26T13:53:05Z pjdelport: LeoNerd: No, state on the stack isn't a closure. :P 2014-06-26T13:53:26Z LeoNerd: Weeell.. whatever you do with it :) 2014-06-26T13:53:29Z LeoNerd: You can do up-args closures like that 2014-06-26T13:53:33Z alex94nts joined #scheme 2014-06-26T13:53:37Z LeoNerd: .. though actually gcc can do those natively 2014-06-26T13:54:11Z LeoNerd: void main(void) { int x = 1; void incr_x(void) { x++; }; incr_x(); printf("x=%d\n", x); } will print 2 2014-06-26T13:54:47Z pjdelport: LeoNerd: Anyway, nonlocal is 6 years old at this point: Python does have it. 2014-06-26T13:54:55Z alex94nts left #scheme 2014-06-26T13:55:18Z oleo joined #scheme 2014-06-26T13:55:36Z LeoNerd: pjdelport: Eh.. I know. 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mrowe_away is now known as mrowe 2014-06-26T19:31:26Z phax quit (Quit: phax) 2014-06-26T19:31:29Z developernotes quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-06-26T19:37:02Z mrowe is now known as mrowe_away 2014-06-26T19:45:20Z developernotes joined #scheme 2014-06-26T19:49:41Z civodul joined #scheme 2014-06-26T19:54:04Z ASau joined #scheme 2014-06-26T19:58:49Z ijp: taylanub: all sorts of creatures lurk in /dev/random at nights 2014-06-26T20:00:25Z taylanub: asumu: lambda bodies don't allow usual definitions. a sequence of `define' usages at the beginning of a lambda body are (conceptually) converted to a usage of `letrec' 2014-06-26T20:01:36Z wingo: :) 2014-06-26T20:01:53Z phax joined #scheme 2014-06-26T20:03:57Z nisstyre: taylanub: (lambda (...) (begin ...)) 2014-06-26T20:05:31Z taylanub: nisstyre: ? 2014-06-26T20:06:22Z nisstyre: taylanub: you don't need letrec to explain it is what I'm saying 2014-06-26T20:06:25Z nisstyre: it's an implicit begin 2014-06-26T20:06:29Z nisstyre: like most things 2014-06-26T20:09:19Z nisstyre: taylanub: " Wherever an internal definition may occur (begin ...) is equivalent to the sequence of definitions that form the body of the begin." 2014-06-26T20:09:24Z AkashicLegend joined #scheme 2014-06-26T20:09:46Z nisstyre: http://www.schemers.org/Documents/Standards/R5RS/HTML/r5rs-Z-H-2.html#%_toc_%_sec_5.2.2 2014-06-26T20:09:47Z rudybot: http://tinyurl.com/kveshgk 2014-06-26T20:12:22Z offby1: impaktor: "bows deeply" means that klutometis joined; "la la la" means that duncanm joined. It's a coincidence that we saw one message right after the other. 2014-06-26T20:12:25Z offby1: rudybot: seen klutometis 2014-06-26T20:12:25Z rudybot: *offby1: klutometis was seen joining in #emacs one hour ago, and then klutometis was seen joining in #scheme one hour ago 2014-06-26T20:12:28Z offby1: rudybot: seen duncanm 2014-06-26T20:12:28Z rudybot: *offby1: duncanm was seen quitting one hour ago, saying "*.net *.split", and then duncanm was seen joining in #scheme one hour ago 2014-06-26T20:12:30Z offby1: see 2014-06-26T20:12:49Z asumu: taylanub: I don't see why that means there aren't definitions in a lambda body. 2014-06-26T20:13:07Z wingo quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-06-26T20:13:33Z taylanub: nisstyre: I'm failing to understand the sentence you quoted, but it looks like it was a bad attempt at explaining what the equivalent section of r7rs-small explains better 2014-06-26T20:13:34Z nisstyre: asumu: r5rs says that the two are equivalent I think, more or less 2014-06-26T20:13:41Z asumu: You could also just imagine lifting out all defines in a module to a big letrec too. 2014-06-26T20:14:16Z nisstyre: taylanub: "the body of the begin" refers to the portion substituted into (begin ...) 2014-06-26T20:14:17Z asumu: nisstyre: right. Top-level defines are another matter, but the top-level is hopeless anyway. 2014-06-26T20:15:05Z taylanub: a 'begin' that includes definitions is spliced into its surroundings, after which it's an error if not all definitions precede the expressions, after which we're left with the conversion to letrec again 2014-06-26T20:16:02Z taylanub: asumu: right .. I suppose everything is syntax sugar in the end :) it's just that Scheme keeps it significantly more slim 2014-06-26T20:17:31Z pnkfelix joined #scheme 2014-06-26T20:18:34Z ijp: cavities all the way down 2014-06-26T20:18:52Z asumu: What was it, "syntactic sugar causes cancer of the colon"? 2014-06-26T20:18:59Z ijp: yes, alan perlis 2014-06-26T20:19:04Z nisstyre: taylanub: I think whether or not (lambda () (define a 3) (define b 4) (+ a b)) ends up the same as (lambda () (begin (define a 3) (define b 4) (+ a b))) depends how you desugar a single define 2014-06-26T20:19:11Z ijp: s/colon/semicolon/ 2014-06-26T20:19:17Z asumu: Ah yes. 2014-06-26T20:19:35Z nisstyre: they probably end up being the same code actually 2014-06-26T20:19:43Z nisstyre: but they might not get desugared in the same way 2014-06-26T20:20:01Z taylanub: nisstyre: I think you're reading that sentence backwards and it says that (lambda () (begin ...)) is simplified to (lambda () ...) and not the other way around 2014-06-26T20:21:43Z nisstyre: taylanub: are you sure? I would expect it to evaluate each begin in the order you gave it, and begin guarantees a certain sequence of execution 2014-06-26T20:22:00Z nisstyre: does letrec also guarantee that? 2014-06-26T20:22:01Z taylanub: nisstyre: definitions aren't executed, they declare 2014-06-26T20:22:10Z nisstyre: begin is for sequencing though 2014-06-26T20:22:21Z taylanub: nisstyre: IIRC r5rs said it maps to letrec usage, though indeed, r7rs made that letrec* 2014-06-26T20:22:34Z nisstyre: okay, I don't care enough to argue over it 2014-06-26T20:22:38Z taylanub: nisstyre: that usage of 'begin' is a hack for macros that expand to several definitions 2014-06-26T20:22:46Z nisstyre: fair enough 2014-06-26T20:24:52Z nisstyre: taylanub: personally I avoid using define for internal bindings anyway 2014-06-26T20:25:09Z nisstyre: let, and let* are 99% of what I use 2014-06-26T20:25:26Z nisstyre: and of course all the binding that happens with pattern matching in Racket 2014-06-26T20:26:24Z sroy_ quit (Quit: Quitte) 2014-06-26T20:26:25Z klutometis: Riastradh: You remembered! 2014-06-26T20:26:58Z klutometis: That's nice; especially with Marcus Aurelius, et al. reminding us how brief our memory persists after we're gone. 2014-06-26T20:27:07Z ijp: rudybot is serious business 2014-06-26T20:27:26Z taylanub: well letrec has different semantics; when you need it you need it. and I suppose internal defines map to letrec* and not e.g. let* because that covers the most use-cases 2014-06-26T20:27:47Z nisstyre: taylanub: yes, I know, I just rarely need letrec 2014-06-26T20:27:58Z klutometis: offby1: How's everything, by the way? 2014-06-26T20:28:12Z klutometis: I seem to remember that you had moved on from Amazon last time we talked. 2014-06-26T20:28:20Z mrowe_away is now known as mrowe 2014-06-26T20:37:50Z mrowe is now known as mrowe_away 2014-06-26T20:47:31Z jeapostrophe quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-26T20:52:38Z Nizumzen joined #scheme 2014-06-26T20:59:19Z davexunit quit (Quit: Later) 2014-06-26T21:00:45Z offby1: klutometis: workin' in Belluevue. 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How is eval typically implemented? 2014-06-26T23:12:04Z safety quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-26T23:12:04Z klutometis quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-26T23:12:10Z gaze__: it's certainly obvious if the compiler lives inside the image 2014-06-26T23:12:23Z gaze__: but for chicken scheme for instance... what's going on? 2014-06-26T23:12:31Z klutometis joined #scheme 2014-06-26T23:12:32Z rudybot bows deeply before his master, inventor of incubot 2014-06-26T23:12:55Z klutometis is now known as Guest86234 2014-06-26T23:13:49Z gaze__: is eval usually implemented as an interpreter as a library function inside whatever image the compiler generates? 2014-06-26T23:21:32Z george2 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-06-26T23:25:10Z nisstyre: gaze__: I don't know about Chicken, but you could do that yes, or you could have eval take the s-expression you give it and compile it on the fly and then execute it 2014-06-26T23:25:27Z nisstyre: that would obviously require you to have lots of stuff linked in 2014-06-26T23:27:18Z nisstyre: gaze__: if you look at something like Stalin, it doesn't even give you eval https://github.com/barak/stalin 2014-06-26T23:27:24Z nisstyre: since it would be too inefficient 2014-06-26T23:27:53Z gaze__: ahhh I see 2014-06-26T23:28:37Z nisstyre: yeah, eval can be nasty :p 2014-06-26T23:28:40Z nisstyre: don't use it 2014-06-26T23:28:42Z gaze__: seriously! 2014-06-26T23:28:50Z nisstyre: (unless you have a really good reason) 2014-06-26T23:30:59Z gaze__: I'm writing my own little hobby lisp on LLVM with a realtime GC and I really wanna keep the compiler outta the target image 2014-06-26T23:31:54Z gaze__: so I guess if I exclude eval I'm good 2014-06-26T23:32:03Z nisstyre: yeah, that sounds fine to me 2014-06-26T23:35:10Z vinleod quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.) 2014-06-26T23:43:00Z oleo quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-06-26T23:44:47Z amgarchIn9 quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2014-06-26T23:45:43Z amgarchIn9 joined #scheme 2014-06-26T23:49:27Z amgarchIn9 quit (Client Quit) 2014-06-26T23:56:52Z oleo joined #scheme 2014-06-26T23:58:20Z flounders quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2014-06-26T23:59:12Z tcsc quit (Quit: bye!) 2014-06-27T00:02:09Z karswell quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-06-27T00:03:13Z karswell joined #scheme 2014-06-27T00:22:42Z kazimir42 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-27T00:22:57Z leppie quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2014-06-27T00:23:04Z kazimir42 joined #scheme 2014-06-27T00:27:15Z leppie joined #scheme 2014-06-27T00:27:27Z arrubin joined #scheme 2014-06-27T00:30:00Z gaze__: anyone familiar with psyntax? 2014-06-27T00:30:41Z hiroakip quit (Quit: Ex-Chat) 2014-06-27T00:48:43Z ANGRYSTEVE quit (Quit: Sunya in my bunya) 2014-06-27T00:50:14Z orthecreedence quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-27T00:50:48Z cdidd_ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-06-27T00:52:36Z cdidd_ joined #scheme 2014-06-27T01:31:15Z davexunit quit (Quit: Later) 2014-06-27T01:39:27Z AkashicLegend quit (Quit: AkashicLegend) 2014-06-27T01:45:18Z daviid quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2014-06-27T01:52:35Z Riastradh: Guest86234, nee klutometis, so which is it -- `discovered' or `invented'? 2014-06-27T02:10:06Z jaimef: metis :P 2014-06-27T02:21:01Z klltkr quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. 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What besides syntax-rules can syntax-transformer be? 2014-06-27T05:19:10Z pjb: In the compiler, there's somewhere a test: (if (syntax-transformer? (car expr)) (compile (transform (car expr) expr)) (compile expr)) 2014-06-27T05:19:56Z pjb: gaze__: outside of r5rs, there is the classic defmacro, which lets you write unhygienic macros. 2014-06-27T05:21:00Z pjb: Also, some schemes have functions to convert between sexp and syntax, so you can write your syntrax transformer by converting the syntax back into a sexp, processing the sexp with normal scheme functions, and convert the result back to syntax. 2014-06-27T05:21:26Z gaze__: let's say for giggles that I'm writing my compiler in something that isn't scheme and I have no scheme available 2014-06-27T05:22:22Z pjb: Then you implement your macroless scheme, and once you have it, you add macros or hygienic syntax transformers. 2014-06-27T05:22:22Z gaze__: what's the spec on what's necessary to implement a syntax-transformer? 2014-06-27T05:22:55Z gaze__: this is fine if you're interpreting, sure 2014-06-27T05:22:58Z gaze__: but say I have no eval 2014-06-27T05:23:39Z pjb: It's not a question of interpretation. You have a compiler for a macroless scheme. In that language you can easily implement macros, it's trivial. 2014-06-27T05:24:59Z Natch joined #scheme 2014-06-27T05:25:58Z pjb: If you don't have eval, you could define it as something like: (define (eval x env) ((compile `(lambda () ,x) env))) 2014-06-27T05:27:46Z pjb: gaze__: the specifications don't tel you how to implement stuff, so there's no specifications on what's necessary to implement stuff. 2014-06-27T05:28:01Z gaze__: Well... okay, it looks like here http://wiki.call-cc.org/man/4/Macros TRANSFORMER is limited to being an [er|ir]-macro transformer or a syntax-rules form 2014-06-27T05:28:03Z pjb: If you can find a way to implement syntax-transformer with French fries, more power to you. 2014-06-27T05:28:31Z gaze__: well if you're explicitly limited to a syntax-rules form 2014-06-27T05:29:10Z gaze__: well you don't have to be terribly intelligent I guess 2014-06-27T05:29:20Z gaze__: say I only know how to cross-compile 2014-06-27T05:30:04Z gaze__: I understand if this was common lisp you'd need your macro environment to be a full lisp 2014-06-27T05:30:19Z gaze__: but the way I understand it, this isn't the way scheme works 2014-06-27T05:30:26Z pjb: See http://paste.lisp.org/+32CP 2014-06-27T05:31:03Z pjb: So you can define any kind of transformer. 2014-06-27T05:31:33Z pjb: The DSL specified by r5rs let you define easily restricted transformer, so called "hygienic" macros. 2014-06-27T05:33:52Z pjb: macro transfomers are those functions called by the compiler to transform sexps into sexps, or syntax objects into syntax objects. Syntax objects are compiler specific data structures. 2014-06-27T05:34:54Z nisstyre: gaze__: btw, I recommend getting the book Lisp In Small Pieces if you're interested in how scheme (as well as other lisps) are implemented 2014-06-27T05:34:54Z phax quit (Quit: phax) 2014-06-27T05:34:59Z impaktor: Is there an pwd or similar in the REPL. I don't know where it is. 2014-06-27T05:35:04Z nisstyre: it covers a bunch of different interpreters and two compilers 2014-06-27T05:35:21Z jxv quit (Quit: QUIT) 2014-06-27T05:35:35Z gaze__: nisstyre: That sounds like a good idea. Does it cover through R5RS? 2014-06-27T05:35:40Z impaktor: By that I mean, I don't know which path it is in. 2014-06-27T05:35:50Z nisstyre: gaze__: it doesn't cover any standard exactly 2014-06-27T05:36:16Z jlongster quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2014-06-27T05:36:23Z nisstyre: gaze__: it's more about general functional implementation techniques for lisps 2014-06-27T05:36:30Z nisstyre: but it talks about scheme 2014-06-27T05:36:35Z gaze__: mmm okay 2014-06-27T05:36:39Z nisstyre: and it has code for what is more or less standard scheme 2014-06-27T05:36:56Z nisstyre: it also talks about things that common lisp does, like dynamic bindings 2014-06-27T05:37:05Z nisstyre: and separate namespaces 2014-06-27T05:37:33Z nisstyre: (scheme has dynamic bindings too but they're not as ubiquitous) 2014-06-27T05:37:40Z racycle joined #scheme 2014-06-27T05:39:10Z kazimir42 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-27T05:42:54Z Nizumzen joined #scheme 2014-06-27T05:45:09Z spaceotter quit (Ping 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ijp quit (Quit: This ijp has ended peacefully) 2014-06-28T02:07:55Z acarrico joined #scheme 2014-06-28T02:12:11Z garietyxxx joined #scheme 2014-06-28T02:12:25Z garietyxxx: Hi, #scheme, I'm trying to turn a string of digits into a list of numbers. 2014-06-28T02:12:31Z garietyxxx: when I use (string->list "foo") and get (#\f #\o #\o), what is the type of those elements? 2014-06-28T02:12:36Z garietyxxx: They aren't strings or symbols, what are they? I'd like them to be numbers, but can't figure it out. 2014-06-28T02:20:47Z pjb: they're characters. 2014-06-28T02:21:14Z Nizumzen joined #scheme 2014-06-28T02:22:36Z b4284 joined #scheme 2014-06-28T02:22:56Z garietyxxx: pjb: is the best way to do what I'm doing then do a string->list, and then map that list char->integer? 2014-06-28T02:24:11Z garietyxxx: pjb: wait no that gives me char codes! 2014-06-28T02:25:00Z pjb: It'd be best to map explicitely characters to digit values. 2014-06-28T02:25:16Z pjb: (cond ((char= #\0 c) 0) ((char= #\1 c) 1) …) 2014-06-28T02:31:39Z garietyxxx: pjb: that's a huge cond statement 2014-06-28T02:31:56Z garietyxxx: pjb: anything smaller? 2014-06-28T02:32:06Z pjb: You can do it otherwise. The point is that char->integer may return different values. 2014-06-28T02:32:19Z pjb: (position ch "0123456789") could do too. 2014-06-28T02:33:54Z garietyxxx: pjb: is position from an sfri or something? 2014-06-28T02:34:00Z pjb: yes, or something. 2014-06-28T02:34:08Z garietyxxx: pjb: lmao 2014-06-28T02:34:19Z garietyxxx: How is this? 2014-06-28T02:34:20Z garietyxxx: (set! s (map (lambda (char) 2014-06-28T02:34:20Z garietyxxx: (string->number (make-string 1 char))) 2014-06-28T02:34:20Z garietyxxx: (string->list s))) 2014-06-28T02:34:41Z garietyxxx: s is the string 2014-06-28T02:34:54Z pjb: Yes, string->number could do too. 2014-06-28T02:35:06Z garietyxxx: pjb: anything better than make-string? 2014-06-28T02:35:13Z garietyxxx: that's the ugly part, passing that integer 2014-06-28T02:35:20Z pjb: What will you do with those digits? What about (string->number s)? 2014-06-28T02:35:32Z garietyxxx: pjb: the string is much too big 2014-06-28T02:35:36Z garietyxxx: it returns #f 2014-06-28T02:35:46Z garietyxxx: I'm going to be looping over the list and getting the product at certain points 2014-06-28T02:35:46Z pjb: ok. 2014-06-28T02:50:22Z mrowe_away is now known as mrowe 2014-06-28T02:51:17Z jlongster joined #scheme 2014-06-28T02:55:56Z mrowe is now known as mrowe_away 2014-06-28T02:58:17Z leo2007 joined #scheme 2014-06-28T03:02:25Z araujo quit (Quit: Leaving) 2014-06-28T03:12:37Z yrdz joined #scheme 2014-06-28T03:19:12Z yrdz quit (Quit: Bye) 2014-06-28T03:26:03Z AkashicLegend joined #scheme 2014-06-28T03:27:00Z leb joined #scheme 2014-06-28T03:33:21Z nisstyre: > (map (compose string->number string) (string->list "123456")) 2014-06-28T03:33:33Z nisstyre: rudybot:(map (compose string->number string) (string->list "123456")) 2014-06-28T03:33:33Z rudybot: nisstyre: your sandbox is ready 2014-06-28T03:33:34Z rudybot: nisstyre: ; Value: '(1 2 3 4 5 6) 2014-06-28T03:33:38Z nisstyre: garietyxxx: ^ 2014-06-28T03:33:45Z nisstyre: that's Racket though 2014-06-28T03:34:47Z nisstyre: works in Guile though 2014-06-28T03:38:32Z jlongster quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2014-06-28T03:41:39Z rins joined #scheme 2014-06-28T03:48:46Z jxv joined #scheme 2014-06-28T03:49:59Z racycle joined #scheme 2014-06-28T03:50:20Z SoulSeek139: Is there something I should be using instead of eval to interpret literals using the bindings within a (let) ? 2014-06-28T03:52:26Z SoulSeek139: Does such a venture fall categorically outside of the procedure-only paradigm? 2014-06-28T03:53:44Z garietyxxx quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2014-06-28T03:54:23Z bokr joined #scheme 2014-06-28T04:02:10Z jlongster joined #scheme 2014-06-28T04:10:37Z jxv quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-06-28T04:15:12Z arrubin quit (Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com) 2014-06-28T04:19:58Z choas quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-28T04:28:37Z racycle quit (Quit: ZZZzzz…) 2014-06-28T04:37:55Z jxv joined #scheme 2014-06-28T04:40:26Z bokr1 joined #scheme 2014-06-28T04:41:52Z bokr quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-06-28T04:54:30Z AkashicLegend quit (Quit: AkashicLegend) 2014-06-28T05:02:02Z acarrico1 joined #scheme 2014-06-28T05:03:20Z acarrico quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2014-06-28T05:04:46Z AkashicLegend joined #scheme 2014-06-28T05:10:10Z phipes joined #scheme 2014-06-28T05:11:47Z rins quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-28T05:11:47Z Rodya_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-28T05:14:00Z petercom1and is now known as petercommand 2014-06-28T05:18:38Z pjb: SoulSeek139: you cannot. Theorically, a scheme could provide you with an operator that would return the environment at the call point of that operators, and you would use that environment to evaluate an expression using local variables. But it is not in r5rs, and I don't know whether any implementation provides it. 2014-06-28T05:20:15Z pjb: The point is that when you compile, you want to throw away the source code. So you lose the symbols identifying those local variables. 2014-06-28T05:20:16Z AkashicLegend quit (Quit: AkashicLegend) 2014-06-28T05:20:58Z pjb: SoulSeek139: on the other hand, you can easily write an evaluator to which you would provide closures accessing the local variables you want to give access to. 2014-06-28T05:22:26Z nisstyre: pjb: you could write a macro on top of let though and then capture the binding names using syntax->datum (not sure if it exists everywhere) 2014-06-28T05:23:26Z pjb: Yes. 2014-06-28T05:24:17Z jlongster quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-28T05:35:56Z garietyxxx joined #scheme 2014-06-28T05:42:44Z visualshock quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-28T05:43:29Z pyro- quit (Changing host) 2014-06-28T05:43:29Z pyro- joined #scheme 2014-06-28T05:44:48Z phipes quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. 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But you must call it with (call-with-values (lambda () (skip-whitespace stream)) (lambda () #f)) 2014-06-28T07:54:20Z vanila: why can't i call it normally 2014-06-28T07:54:23Z jxv_ quit (Client Quit) 2014-06-28T07:54:33Z pjb: -- procedure: values obj ... 2014-06-28T07:54:33Z pjb: Delivers all of its arguments to its continuation. Except for 2014-06-28T07:54:33Z pjb: continuations created by the `call-with-values' procedure, all 2014-06-28T07:54:33Z pjb: continuations take exactly one value. 2014-06-28T07:54:36Z pjb: standard r5rs. 2014-06-28T07:54:40Z jxv_ joined #scheme 2014-06-28T07:55:06Z pjb: There is no continuation that takes 0 values, other than one created by call-with-values. 2014-06-28T07:55:11Z jxv_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-28T07:55:23Z pjb: Notice that this specification makes values unusable in scheme. If you want values, use Common Lisp. 2014-06-28T07:55:30Z jxv joined #scheme 2014-06-28T07:55:48Z vanila: so what should I do 2014-06-28T07:55:59Z pjb: return #f or '() 2014-06-28T07:56:56Z pjb: yeah right, it's not as simple as returning nil. Now you must choose between a boolean and an empty list… 2014-06-28T07:58:32Z pjb: or you may want to return something meaningful. 2014-06-28T07:58:44Z pjb: For example, you could return the number of spaces skipped. 2014-06-28T08:07:41Z wingo joined #scheme 2014-06-28T08:08:04Z Riastradh quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-28T08:08:19Z Riastradh joined #scheme 2014-06-28T08:08:28Z vanila: http://www.schemers.org/Documents/Standards/R5RS/HTML/r5rs-Z-H-15.html#%_chap_Temp_11 2014-06-28T08:08:28Z rudybot: http://tinyurl.com/qz5bllc 2014-06-28T08:08:36Z vanila: I don't see gensym in here but i wanted to use gensym what do you think I should do? 2014-06-28T08:08:40Z alexei_ joined #scheme 2014-06-28T08:09:02Z vanila: I read in a s-expression from a file and then I want to generate new symbols different to anyting seen before 2014-06-28T08:09:45Z vanila: http://pastebin.com/raw.php?i=dUaSAmKk 2014-06-28T08:09:52Z vanila: it looks like gensym doesn't even work for that anyway 2014-06-28T08:12:03Z oleo__ quit (Quit: Verlassend) 2014-06-28T08:13:29Z vanila: I guess I should make my own table to used symbols and implement my own gensym based on it then? 2014-06-28T08:14:07Z oleo joined #scheme 2014-06-28T08:20:32Z garietyxxx joined #scheme 2014-06-28T08:38:17Z atomx joined #scheme 2014-06-28T08:39:36Z alexei_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-06-28T08:39:44Z alexei_ joined #scheme 2014-06-28T08:39:53Z jusss joined #scheme 2014-06-28T08:54:22Z DGASAU quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-06-28T08:55:55Z phipes quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. 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2014-06-28T10:44:13Z vanila: when I retrn an error in recursion it just gets stuck in the middle of my output 2014-06-28T10:49:45Z ANGRYSTEVE quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-06-28T10:50:05Z jewel_ joined #scheme 2014-06-28T10:53:24Z jewel quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2014-06-28T10:53:49Z alexei_ quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2014-06-28T10:53:55Z alexei___ joined #scheme 2014-06-28T10:59:23Z hive-mind quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-28T11:00:42Z hive-mind joined #scheme 2014-06-28T11:07:56Z Intensity quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2014-06-28T11:09:03Z AkashicLegend joined #scheme 2014-06-28T11:12:56Z bokr quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2014-06-28T11:15:24Z bokr joined #scheme 2014-06-28T11:17:23Z Kackao joined #scheme 2014-06-28T11:17:29Z Kackao_ joined #scheme 2014-06-28T11:18:28Z alexei___ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2014-06-28T11:18:40Z Kackao_ quit (Client Quit) 2014-06-28T11:18:40Z Kackao quit (Client Quit) 2014-06-28T11:22:56Z alexei___ joined #scheme 2014-06-28T11:28:46Z BitPuffin joined #scheme 2014-06-28T11:45:00Z daviid joined #scheme 2014-06-28T11:46:09Z vanila: is there a way to nicely indent scheme code, if you deleted all the newlines? 2014-06-28T11:46:31Z vanila: like just some program that uses some heuristics to add newline in sensible places 2014-06-28T11:54:23Z em is now known as emma 2014-06-28T11:54:46Z emma is now known as em 2014-06-28T11:56:45Z ijp joined #scheme 2014-06-28T11:58:25Z davexunit joined #scheme 2014-06-28T12:00:05Z alexei___ quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2014-06-28T12:08:47Z alezost left #scheme 2014-06-28T12:16:00Z bokr quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-06-28T12:18:02Z alezost joined #scheme 2014-06-28T12:19:52Z em is now known as emma 2014-06-28T12:25:11Z emma is now known as em 2014-06-28T12:36:36Z jusss quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-28T12:51:20Z arbscht quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2014-06-28T12:52:28Z AkashicLegend quit (Quit: AkashicLegend) 2014-06-28T12:55:00Z oleo quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-06-28T12:58:09Z jeapostrophe joined #scheme 2014-06-28T13:01:43Z taylanub: vanila: your implementation might have some 'pretty-print' procedure 2014-06-28T13:02:25Z taylanub: vanila: R6RS and R7RS-small both support ways of throwing exceptions, you can read the documents to find out. the implementation you're using might just have its own way though 2014-06-28T13:03:31Z gravicappa quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-28T13:04:31Z arbscht joined #scheme 2014-06-28T13:05:58Z taylanub: vanila: Scheme doesn't have gensym or uninterned symbols since they aren't needed anymore with Scheme's macro system; if you want to create an object that's different from all others, you can use `cons' 2014-06-28T13:06:23Z vanila: that's a cool idea ty 2014-06-28T13:07:36Z taylanub: vanila: by the way in the pastebinned example, the two g0 you see are *not* the same symbol, they just look the same 2014-06-28T13:07:49Z vanila: omg :S 2014-06-28T13:08:03Z taylanub: of course if you read them back in they'll both be the same again, but before you print them out they're different symbol objects with the same "name" 2014-06-28T13:08:15Z vanila: that's horrible 2014-06-28T13:08:36Z oleo joined #scheme 2014-06-28T13:08:39Z taylanub: that's what uninterned symbols are, symbols that have a certain name but aren't the same as the "canonical" symbol with that name that is generated when reading in a symbol with that name 2014-06-28T13:09:10Z taylanub: i.e. no matter how many times you read in the symbol 'foo' you get the same object, but you can also have a separate symbol 'foo' that you created with something like `make-symbol' or `gensym' 2014-06-28T13:22:38Z averell quit (Quit: .) 2014-06-28T13:26:20Z averell joined #scheme 2014-06-28T13:27:59Z jusss joined #scheme 2014-06-28T13:39:50Z averell quit (Quit: .) 2014-06-28T13:40:22Z averell joined #scheme 2014-06-28T14:02:37Z Steverman joined #scheme 2014-06-28T14:04:36Z jeapostrophe quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-06-28T14:07:14Z jusss quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-28T14:08:01Z Steverman quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2014-06-28T14:08:31Z alexei___ joined #scheme 2014-06-28T14:08:35Z jeapostrophe joined #scheme 2014-06-28T14:08:35Z jeapostrophe quit (Changing host) 2014-06-28T14:08:35Z jeapostrophe joined #scheme 2014-06-28T14:24:15Z Riastrad1 quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-06-28T14:41:12Z jeapostrophe quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-06-28T14:43:20Z racycle joined #scheme 2014-06-28T15:02:28Z daviid quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2014-06-28T15:19:08Z Nizumzen joined #scheme 2014-06-28T15:22:08Z jlongster joined #scheme 2014-06-28T15:28:00Z jlongster quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-06-28T15:37:42Z visualshock joined #scheme 2014-06-28T15:43:32Z arrubin joined #scheme 2014-06-28T15:46:35Z jxv joined #scheme 2014-06-28T15:49:55Z jusss joined #scheme 2014-06-28T16:04:58Z racycle quit (Quit: ZZZzzz…) 2014-06-28T16:10:07Z moghar joined #scheme 2014-06-28T16:11:17Z arrubin quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. 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Is there anyone tried this? 2014-06-28T17:27:32Z nanashi``: I have difficulties thinking about if-then-else, I don't think it is just me. 2014-06-28T17:28:38Z nanashi``: It is like, there is some multiverse(?), what if that happens, what if this happens... 2014-06-28T17:29:13Z ijp: some of my better code looks "unconditional", but I don't really put much thought into making it that way 2014-06-28T17:29:32Z nanashi``: it is too unnatural for a more mathematical mind, isn't it? 2014-06-28T17:29:49Z ijp: I don't see how 2014-06-28T17:31:12Z nanashi``: Expressionism 2014-06-28T17:35:10Z nanashi``: Is it slower to think about an event, a sequence of sound/speech than a static image? 2014-06-28T17:35:42Z araujo joined #scheme 2014-06-28T17:36:11Z nanashi``: If you believe that, then you may not like if-then-else, i guess. 2014-06-28T17:39:39Z moghar quit (Quit: moghar) 2014-06-28T17:41:27Z Blkt_ is now known as Blkt 2014-06-28T17:54:29Z pawelbx joined #scheme 2014-06-28T18:02:38Z add^_ quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2014-06-28T18:06:00Z taylanub: nanashi``: trying to explicitly avoid a certain programming construct sounds silly in general; if you're familiar with enough different constructs and aren't biased for or against any then the most appropriate one should pop to mind naturally 2014-06-28T18:06:13Z jxv quit (Quit: QUIT) 2014-06-28T18:07:31Z taylanub: and then there's an argument for using common patterns. if you work with a lot of C programmers or otherwise programmers most familiar with imperative constructs, then you and your colleagues start a project in a language like JavaScript or Python which more or less builds on the popular imperative languages but still introduces e.g. functional programming features, you might like to actually avoid the FP features 2014-06-28T18:07:31Z taylanub: colleagues 2014-06-28T18:26:09Z nisstyre: taylanub: trying to force everyone to do something all the time is how TDD got started 2014-06-28T18:26:16Z nisstyre: and the Java nonsense as well 2014-06-28T18:28:38Z ijp rolls eyes 2014-06-28T18:29:35Z nisstyre: in general, "I have an amazing idea that will revolutionize programming, use it everywhere!" 2014-06-28T18:29:43Z nisstyre: people start using it everywhere, leading to terrible things 2014-06-28T18:38:25Z impaktor: rape is pretty terrible. 2014-06-28T18:39:36Z ijp flays impaktor 2014-06-28T18:40:54Z impaktor: I agree, programming is no laughing matter. 2014-06-28T18:44:34Z kazimir42 joined #scheme 2014-06-28T18:49:15Z vraid quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2014-06-28T19:00:09Z pera joined #scheme 2014-06-28T19:18:17Z acarrico1 is now known as acarrico 2014-06-28T19:19:02Z Okasu quit (Quit: leaving) 2014-06-28T19:26:14Z xyh joined #scheme 2014-06-28T19:28:28Z vraid joined #scheme 2014-06-28T19:34:47Z xyh left #scheme 2014-06-28T19:36:37Z phipes quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. 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ZZZzzz…) 2014-06-30T18:30:29Z Riastradh: Most IRC channels have periods of quiet. What do you want to talk about? 2014-06-30T18:30:57Z jaimef quit (Excess Flood) 2014-06-30T18:32:41Z Gobulcoqkuq: I'm going to SICP now and was curious if i could get IRC working. 2014-06-30T18:32:51Z Gobulcoqkuq: *the scheme irc 2014-06-30T18:33:30Z MichaelRaskin joined #scheme 2014-06-30T18:34:17Z jaimef joined #scheme 2014-06-30T18:34:39Z BitPuffin quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2014-06-30T18:36:34Z Riastradh quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-30T18:36:59Z Riastradh joined #scheme 2014-06-30T18:40:38Z developernotes joined #scheme 2014-06-30T18:42:39Z boycottg00gle joined #scheme 2014-06-30T18:48:52Z FracV quit (Quit: leaving) 2014-06-30T18:49:15Z FracV joined #scheme 2014-06-30T18:55:24Z przl quit (Quit: leaving) 2014-06-30T19:00:14Z annodomini quit (Quit: annodomini) 2014-06-30T19:00:59Z annodomini joined #scheme 2014-06-30T19:02:33Z theseb quit (Quit: Leaving) 2014-06-30T19:05:09Z nisstyre: Riastradh: what are some useful things to do with delimited/composable continuations? (particularly shift/reset) 2014-06-30T19:05:34Z nisstyre: the best thing I could come up with is that you can use them to implement a sort of co-routine type message passing 2014-06-30T19:09:50Z Gobulcoqkuq quit (Quit: Leaving) 2014-06-30T19:12:00Z rszeno joined #scheme 2014-06-30T19:19:32Z taylanub: nisstyre: continue/break/return and non-recoverable exceptions are best expressed as one-shot AKA escape continuations, which a compiler can optimize to from delimited continuations; recoverable exceptions are better implemented by delimited continuations too, for better composability; other than that one can implement coroutines and generators 2014-06-30T19:20:32Z taylanub: I suppose one could also optimize full continuations to one-shot ones though 2014-06-30T19:21:34Z taylanub: nisstyre: in any case delimited > non-delimited: http://okmij.org/ftp/continuations/against-callcc.html 2014-06-30T19:22:02Z annodomini quit (Quit: annodomini) 2014-06-30T19:22:36Z boycottg00gle quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-30T19:23:54Z jyc quit (Quit: ZNC - http://znc.in) 2014-06-30T19:24:57Z jyc joined #scheme 2014-06-30T19:30:07Z annodomini joined #scheme 2014-06-30T19:34:56Z fikusz quit (Quit: Leaving) 2014-06-30T19:37:33Z fikusz joined #scheme 2014-06-30T19:38:23Z Nizumzen joined #scheme 2014-06-30T19:48:21Z jewel_ quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2014-06-30T19:51:32Z jaimef quit (Excess Flood) 2014-06-30T19:53:44Z jxv joined #scheme 2014-06-30T19:53:47Z jaimef joined #scheme 2014-06-30T19:53:51Z altphi joined #scheme 2014-06-30T19:59:26Z annodomini quit (Quit: annodomini) 2014-06-30T19:59:27Z rtra quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2014-06-30T20:04:56Z rtra joined #scheme 2014-06-30T20:06:26Z deadghost joined #scheme 2014-06-30T20:06:39Z nisstyre: taylanub: okay, I was asking Riastradh because he implemented them though 2014-06-30T20:08:11Z deadghost: I'm going to go through sicp with emacs 2014-06-30T20:08:18Z annodomini joined #scheme 2014-06-30T20:08:18Z deadghost: any recommendation on scheme implementation? 2014-06-30T20:08:19Z annodomini quit (Changing host) 2014-06-30T20:08:19Z annodomini joined #scheme 2014-06-30T20:10:01Z nisstyre: deadghost: Racket or Guile 2014-06-30T20:10:21Z nisstyre: or MIT/GNU Scheme since that might be closer to the Scheme SICP uses 2014-06-30T20:10:40Z nisstyre: there is a SICP #lang for Racket too 2014-06-30T20:13:28Z hiroakip joined #scheme 2014-06-30T20:16:51Z deadghost: hmm racket is what HtDP uses yes? 2014-06-30T20:16:57Z deadghost: probably will go with that 2014-06-30T20:22:35Z nisstyre: deadghost: it uses part of Racket 2014-06-30T20:23:01Z nisstyre: it's also meant to be much more easy for non-programmer types to read 2014-06-30T20:28:42Z pnkfelix joined #scheme 2014-06-30T20:33:57Z leb quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.) 2014-06-30T20:38:41Z BitPuffin joined #scheme 2014-06-30T20:40:52Z BitPuffin quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-06-30T20:41:57Z BitPuffin joined #scheme 2014-06-30T20:43:48Z wingo quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2014-06-30T20:53:10Z ASau quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-30T20:54:58Z ASau joined #scheme 2014-06-30T20:55:48Z kuribas quit (Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)) 2014-06-30T20:59:56Z davexunit quit (Quit: Later) 2014-06-30T21:14:26Z jaimef quit (Excess Flood) 2014-06-30T21:14:48Z jaimef joined #scheme 2014-06-30T21:26:53Z kilimanj1ro is now known as kilimanjaro 2014-06-30T21:27:03Z kilimanjaro quit (Changing host) 2014-06-30T21:27:03Z kilimanjaro joined #scheme 2014-06-30T21:27:42Z taylanub quit (Disconnected by services) 2014-06-30T21:28:08Z taylanub joined #scheme 2014-06-30T21:28:37Z ijp` joined #scheme 2014-06-30T21:28:55Z rszeno1 joined #scheme 2014-06-30T21:29:15Z jxv quit (Quit: QUIT) 2014-06-30T21:30:32Z Razz_ joined #scheme 2014-06-30T21:30:52Z genkinod1nki joined #scheme 2014-06-30T21:32:04Z ijp` quit (Client Quit) 2014-06-30T21:33:35Z jlongster quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2014-06-30T21:34:32Z karswell` quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-06-30T21:34:32Z rszeno quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-30T21:35:55Z Razz quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-30T21:35:59Z ijp quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-30T21:35:59Z yacks quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-30T21:35:59Z genkinodenki quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-30T21:35:59Z MichaelRaskin quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-30T21:36:39Z yacks joined #scheme 2014-06-30T21:38:32Z langmartin quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2014-06-30T21:47:27Z gravicappa quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-30T21:49:18Z davexunit joined #scheme 2014-06-30T21:51:54Z altphi quit 2014-06-30T21:52:38Z developernotes quit (Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com) 2014-06-30T21:58:58Z deadghost: nisstyre, ended up using mit-scheme after not being able to figure out how to set #lang in emacs geiser 2014-06-30T22:00:03Z kazimir42 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-30T22:00:24Z kazimir42 joined #scheme 2014-06-30T22:01:18Z jlongster joined #scheme 2014-06-30T22:03:59Z fridim_ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-06-30T22:06:43Z jlongster quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-30T22:08:57Z genkinod1nki quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2014-06-30T22:15:31Z annodomini quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-30T22:16:02Z leb joined #scheme 2014-06-30T22:16:05Z groovy2shoes joined #scheme 2014-06-30T22:17:04Z Sgeo joined #scheme 2014-06-30T22:30:13Z rszeno1 quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2014-06-30T22:30:33Z rszeno joined #scheme 2014-06-30T22:34:19Z tcsc_ joined #scheme 2014-06-30T22:40:17Z mrowe_away is now known as mrowe 2014-06-30T22:41:41Z annodomini joined #scheme 2014-06-30T22:43:03Z hiroakip quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2014-06-30T22:45:13Z FracV quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-30T22:55:57Z jaimef quit (Excess Flood) 2014-06-30T22:56:33Z Riastradh quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-30T22:56:48Z Riastradh joined #scheme 2014-06-30T22:59:19Z jaimef joined #scheme 2014-06-30T23:00:12Z rszeno quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2014-06-30T23:02:47Z jlongster joined #scheme 2014-06-30T23:06:14Z yrdz quit (Quit: Bye) 2014-06-30T23:07:05Z jlongster quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2014-06-30T23:07:21Z alexei quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2014-06-30T23:11:55Z vraid quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-30T23:12:06Z vraid joined #scheme 2014-06-30T23:33:10Z vraaid joined #scheme 2014-06-30T23:33:18Z vraid quit (Disconnected by services) 2014-06-30T23:33:20Z vraaid is now known as vraid 2014-06-30T23:35:55Z groovy2shoes quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)