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2014-05-01T00:13:51Z names: jj2baile pyro- fizzie
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2014-05-01T00:56:53Z taylanub: jfe: what does that do ?  many Schemes have futures, pthreads, green threads, ...
2014-05-01T01:02:03Z jfe: it concurrently executes the procedures passed to it as arguments.
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2014-05-01T01:17:04Z taylanub: jfe: and returns only when all of them finish ?  in any case it could be implemented with whatever threading primitives an implementation supports
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2014-05-01T07:04:31Z `tlm: What would you name a higher order function that maps a function onto every two adjacent elements of a list?
2014-05-01T07:04:37Z `tlm: i.e., (lambda (proc lst) (if (null? lst) '() (map proc lst (cdr lst))))
2014-05-01T07:10:32Z oleo: ?
2014-05-01T07:10:54Z oleo: greedy map ?
2014-05-01T07:10:56Z oleo: lol
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2014-05-01T07:14:37Z rszeno: imo for some things is hard to find a name, if is well documented name doesn't matter too much, you can name it m1252ax
2014-05-01T07:15:54Z rszeno: maybe something easy to remember
2014-05-01T07:20:06Z ecraven: map-successive-tuples
2014-05-01T07:20:13Z ecraven: hm.. tuple is overloaded..
2014-05-01T07:20:18Z ecraven: map-successive-elements ?
2014-05-01T07:20:29Z ecraven: map-successive-couples?
2014-05-01T07:20:53Z ecraven: rszeno: I disagree, when reading the code, you don't necessarily see the documentation
2014-05-01T07:22:03Z rszeno: in this case you go to doc and make clear what you read
2014-05-01T07:22:22Z ecraven: I'd prefer the name to be better than m1252ax though :)
2014-05-01T07:23:01Z rszeno: me too, was a exageration to point that when you can't find a name anything is good
2014-05-01T07:23:36Z oleo: maptuple-n
2014-05-01T07:24:20Z oleo: map proc list (cdr list) (cddr list) (cdddr list) .......
2014-05-01T07:25:19Z oleo: so you start mapping to each element, then to pairs, then to 3 elems etc.....
2014-05-01T07:25:23Z oleo: so tuples....
2014-05-01T07:26:20Z oleo: operation-(on-substructure)-times
2014-05-01T07:27:04Z oleo: map-tuple-n, the first part contracts.....
2014-05-01T07:27:12Z oleo: maptuple-n
2014-05-01T07:27:54Z `tlm: map-successive-couples sounds pretty good for this case.  (Then maybe map-successive-tuples for the more general one?)
2014-05-01T07:27:56Z rszeno: ecraven, i learn on my own skin that naming cost a lot, both, bad name when you could find good one or spending time to find a name where is very hard to find one
2014-05-01T07:28:08Z `tlm: Though it might be nice if the name suggested that they are overlapping...
2014-05-01T07:28:28Z oleo: map already will act successively...., it iterates over the list.....
2014-05-01T07:28:38Z ecraven: I agree, but most of the really good code I've read seems to have gotten naming right
2014-05-01T07:28:51Z ecraven: so I think that is a very important part to writing maintainable code
2014-05-01T07:29:08Z ecraven: oleo: not necessarily, map might go from last to first, there's no guarantees about the order
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2014-05-01T07:30:52Z ecraven: map-over-two-adjacent-elements :)
2014-05-01T07:31:08Z ecraven: rather verbose though
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2014-05-01T18:30:41Z ANGRYSTEVE: uh, can someone help me tracing some scheme code?
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2014-05-01T18:33:23Z ANGRYSTEVE: http://ix.io/c2E/scheme
2014-05-01T18:33:42Z ANGRYSTEVE: how come mul_traced isn't tracing the addition as well?
2014-05-01T18:35:43Z z0d: what is the difference between trace and trace-lambda? the latter only traces lambda forms?
2014-05-01T18:36:04Z ANGRYSTEVE: no idea
2014-05-01T18:36:15Z z0d: why don't you use trace then?
2014-05-01T18:36:15Z ANGRYSTEVE: let me give you an example
2014-05-01T18:36:25Z ANGRYSTEVE: I'm following the lecture notes
2014-05-01T18:37:09Z ANGRYSTEVE: http://pastebin.com/raw.php?i=T9cHwzud
2014-05-01T18:38:45Z ANGRYSTEVE: does this help?
2014-05-01T18:45:14Z pjdelport: ANGRYSTEVE: that looks like it should work
2014-05-01T18:45:39Z ANGRYSTEVE: could it be the missing space?
2014-05-01T18:45:40Z ANGRYSTEVE: :D
2014-05-01T18:45:43Z ANGRYSTEVE: let me test
2014-05-01T18:46:17Z ANGRYSTEVE: yes it is
2014-05-01T18:46:17Z ANGRYSTEVE: ._.
2014-05-01T18:46:49Z ANGRYSTEVE: I have a feeling that I will make that mistake often
2014-05-01T18:47:07Z ANGRYSTEVE: there is no space between mul and (n1 n2)
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2014-05-01T18:57:30Z pjdelport: That should make no difference
2014-05-01T18:58:12Z pjdelport: Does it still happen if you remove the space again? (It might just be that saving/refreshing it had some other effect.)
2014-05-01T19:04:06Z ANGRYSTEVE: hm
2014-05-01T19:04:11Z ANGRYSTEVE: let me try
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2014-05-01T19:07:37Z ANGRYSTEVE: huh
2014-05-01T19:07:40Z ANGRYSTEVE: works now
2014-05-01T19:07:44Z ANGRYSTEVE: don't know what I did
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2014-05-01T19:26:12Z ANGRYSTEVE: I have another problem
2014-05-01T19:27:53Z ANGRYSTEVE: http://ix.io/c2T/sceme
2014-05-01T19:28:00Z ANGRYSTEVE: how come this doesn't work?
2014-05-01T19:28:10Z ANGRYSTEVE: I can do it when I don't check for 0
2014-05-01T19:28:23Z ANGRYSTEVE: something along (< n 2)
2014-05-01T19:28:27Z ANGRYSTEVE: but this method doesn't work
2014-05-01T19:29:05Z vanila: trace it?
2014-05-01T19:30:14Z ANGRYSTEVE: well, I'm getting an exception
2014-05-01T19:30:23Z ANGRYSTEVE: attempt to apply non-precedure 0
2014-05-01T19:30:34Z vanila: oh!
2014-05-01T19:30:37Z vanila: 36       [(zero? n) (0)]
2014-05-01T19:30:39Z vanila: shoudlbe
2014-05-01T19:30:40Z vanila: 36       [(zero? n) 0]
2014-05-01T19:30:42Z vanila: and same with the 1
2014-05-01T19:30:47Z ANGRYSTEVE: ok
2014-05-01T19:31:06Z ijp: you can't just add parentheses anywhere, they matter
2014-05-01T19:31:46Z ANGRYSTEVE: I thought I saw an example do it
2014-05-01T19:31:49Z ANGRYSTEVE: I was wrong :)
2014-05-01T19:32:39Z ANGRYSTEVE: base cases work
2014-05-01T19:32:53Z ANGRYSTEVE: the addition does not
2014-05-01T19:33:59Z akshatj is now known as MahaSahasi
2014-05-01T19:36:15Z vanila: why not?
2014-05-01T19:36:34Z ANGRYSTEVE: maybe the syntax for else is wrong
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2014-05-01T19:36:44Z vanila: its right
2014-05-01T19:36:52Z vanila: I don't see any error
2014-05-01T19:37:53Z ANGRYSTEVE: mmh, add itself needs to be in a parentheses I think?
2014-05-01T19:40:13Z vanila: I think the code is right
2014-05-01T19:40:21Z vanila: In what way is it not working?
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2014-05-01T19:40:56Z ANGRYSTEVE: x32 not bound
2014-05-01T19:41:00Z vanila: hmm
2014-05-01T19:41:15Z vanila: but i search x32 and it doesn't show up in the code
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2014-05-01T19:41:47Z ANGRYSTEVE: \x32 rather
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2014-05-01T19:42:19Z vanila: could it be the 2- function?
2014-05-01T19:42:27Z vanila: try like (1- (1- n)) instead
2014-05-01T19:42:27Z ANGRYSTEVE: wouldn't that work?
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2014-05-01T19:43:19Z ANGRYSTEVE: I could just subtract by using normal subtraction
2014-05-01T19:43:24Z ANGRYSTEVE: 1- means predecessor right?
2014-05-01T19:43:29Z vanila: (- n 2)
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2014-05-01T19:47:25Z ANGRYSTEVE: you're right
2014-05-01T19:47:27Z ANGRYSTEVE: it works
2014-05-01T19:47:36Z ANGRYSTEVE: (1- (1- n))
2014-05-01T19:47:55Z ANGRYSTEVE: must think you're primitively :)
2014-05-01T19:47:58Z ANGRYSTEVE: uh
2014-05-01T19:48:07Z ANGRYSTEVE: I mean must think more primetively :)**
2014-05-01T19:49:52Z ANGRYSTEVE: primitively*
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2014-05-01T19:54:38Z ANGRYSTEVE: so yeah... since it's not a tail recursion
2014-05-01T19:54:49Z ANGRYSTEVE: how do I stop my interpreter from running this big n I put in
2014-05-01T19:55:05Z ANGRYSTEVE: ah, I'll just close it
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2014-05-01T19:58:45Z ANGRYSTEVE: either way
2014-05-01T19:58:46Z ANGRYSTEVE: http://users-cs.au.dk/danvy/dProgSprog/Lecture-notes/week-16.html#exercise-12
2014-05-01T19:59:00Z rudybot: http://tinyurl.com/leryf6e
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2014-05-01T19:59:32Z ANGRYSTEVE: what exactly does exercise 13 mean
2014-05-01T20:00:09Z ijp: well, you know how the fibonacci sequence works?
2014-05-01T20:00:15Z pjdelport: ANGRYSTEVE: does CTRL-C stop your interpreter? That's usually the interrupt key
2014-05-01T20:00:26Z ANGRYSTEVE: yeah
2014-05-01T20:01:11Z ANGRYSTEVE: pjdelport, it's running inside emacs
2014-05-01T20:01:15Z ANGRYSTEVE: not sure
2014-05-01T20:01:18Z ANGRYSTEVE: well too late to check
2014-05-01T20:01:47Z pjdelport: Oh, in emacs it should generally be C-g
2014-05-01T20:01:52Z ANGRYSTEVE: ok
2014-05-01T20:02:27Z ANGRYSTEVE: ijp, I can't see the difference between 12 and 13
2014-05-01T20:02:52Z pjdelport: I can't access that URL
2014-05-01T20:02:56Z ANGRYSTEVE: oh
2014-05-01T20:03:12Z ANGRYSTEVE: what does it say
2014-05-01T20:03:53Z pjdelport: no response
2014-05-01T20:04:15Z ijp: ANGRYSTEVE: well, the difference is that the fibonacci function in 12 only needs the previous 2 values
2014-05-01T20:04:25Z ijp: as opposed to three
2014-05-01T20:04:26Z pjdelport: (is it publically accessible, or a university-only network?)
2014-05-01T20:04:29Z ANGRYSTEVE: oh
2014-05-01T20:04:40Z ANGRYSTEVE: ijp can see it
2014-05-01T20:04:53Z ijp: OMG I'm hacking a danish university
2014-05-01T20:04:55Z pjdelport: oh; must be something weird with our routing then :P
2014-05-01T20:05:02Z pjdelport: (South Africa here)
2014-05-01T20:05:47Z pjdelport: Hmm, http://www.downforeveryoneorjustme.com/users-cs.au.dk says it's down too, though
2014-05-01T20:05:58Z pjdelport: ijp must be somewhere unaffected
2014-05-01T20:06:01Z pjdelport: lucky you :)
2014-05-01T20:06:22Z ijp: heh, downforeveryone tells me its down
2014-05-01T20:07:17Z ANGRYSTEVE: weird
2014-05-01T20:08:45Z ANGRYSTEVE: mmm
2014-05-01T20:09:03Z ANGRYSTEVE: so (cons x y) turns x and y into a pair?
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2014-05-01T20:09:46Z ijp: yes
2014-05-01T20:10:02Z ijp: well, it returns a pair consisting of x and y. x and y are unaffected
2014-05-01T20:10:38Z ANGRYSTEVE: how is that supposed to work? (pair? (cons 10 20)) --> #t?
2014-05-01T20:11:23Z ANGRYSTEVE: and then you can use car and cdr to access the pairs
2014-05-01T20:11:24Z ANGRYSTEVE: aaah
2014-05-01T20:11:27Z ANGRYSTEVE: makes sense
2014-05-01T20:13:49Z ANGRYSTEVE: could you help me out with exercise 23? :D
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2014-05-01T20:14:21Z ANGRYSTEVE: but don't write the code
2014-05-01T20:15:20Z vanila: you can use recursion
2014-05-01T20:15:40Z vanila: if you see a pair, the number of pairs is going to be 1 + number of pairs in car + number of pairs in cdr
2014-05-01T20:16:03Z ANGRYSTEVE: so you can see the link as well :D
2014-05-01T20:16:09Z vanila: damn i gave it away
2014-05-01T20:18:09Z ANGRYSTEVE: oh
2014-05-01T20:18:54Z ANGRYSTEVE: isn't it similar to the number-of-leaves function?
2014-05-01T20:18:57Z ANGRYSTEVE: is it called a function?
2014-05-01T20:24:39Z vanila: it's roughly simiar
2014-05-01T20:24:42Z vanila: but leaves give value 0
2014-05-01T20:24:48Z vanila: and branches give 1
2014-05-01T20:24:58Z vanila: yes
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2014-05-01T20:32:35Z ANGRYSTEVE: ok did it
2014-05-01T20:33:06Z ANGRYSTEVE: http://ix.io/c2Y/scheme
2014-05-01T20:35:17Z ANGRYSTEVE: still trying to get my head around this recursion
2014-05-01T20:43:27Z ANGRYSTEVE: http://pastebin.com/raw.php?i=E5CfRKCS
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2014-05-01T20:45:35Z ANGRYSTEVE: so if I understand this correctly, it tries to compute ((10 . 20) . 30)) but it has to recursively transverse to the first pair in the argument
2014-05-01T20:47:10Z ANGRYSTEVE: I think I can se it
2014-05-01T20:47:12Z ANGRYSTEVE: see*
2014-05-01T20:47:42Z ANGRYSTEVE: while you do it recursively you also check its cdr and car
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2014-05-01T20:55:52Z zacts: LeoNerd: did you have a chance to check out that frons stuff?
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2014-05-01T20:57:48Z LeoNerd: Not yet
2014-05-01T20:57:59Z LeoNerd: PM me a link so it doesn't get lost in backscroll
2014-05-01T21:05:06Z ANGRYSTEVE: damn these induction proofs
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2014-05-01T22:01:05Z jim: the induction t6hing, is first can you show a property true for some X
2014-05-01T22:01:51Z jim: sometimes 0 or 1 are chosen for X, for the base case
2014-05-01T22:03:24Z jim: then, the induction step, is can you show this if statement true for all X, "if p(T) then p(T + 1)"
2014-05-01T22:03:31Z jim: err for all T
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2014-05-01T22:13:19Z jim: because if you can prove the base case and the induction case, they you've proven it for all T >= Xbase
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2014-05-01T23:28:46Z ANGRYSTEVE: I just find it confusing to keep track of what you have to use
2014-05-01T23:29:57Z vanila: it's always: Assume it holds for everything smaller, to prove it holds for the  node you're working on
2014-05-01T23:32:56Z ANGRYSTEVE: it's just an addition proof
2014-05-01T23:33:00Z ANGRYSTEVE: should be really simple
2014-05-01T23:33:19Z ANGRYSTEVE: doing exercise 5 if you're wondering
2014-05-01T23:35:07Z ANGRYSTEVE: I think it's something like (1+n_2) that I can't see as a natural number or something
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2014-05-01T23:43:49Z ANGRYSTEVE: meh, I can't do this for exrcise 5 induction step
2014-05-01T23:44:36Z ANGRYSTEVE: my hypothesis k+(1+n_2)=1+(k+n_2)
2014-05-01T23:45:07Z ANGRYSTEVE: and I'm showing that (1+k)+(1+n_2)=1+((1+k)+n_2)
2014-05-01T23:45:42Z tenq|out is now known as tenq
2014-05-01T23:46:30Z ANGRYSTEVE: so the left hand side: (1+k)+(1+n_2)=1+(k+(1+n_2)) by using definition 2: for all natural numbers k and n2, (1 + k) + n2 = 1 + (k + n2)
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2014-05-01T23:53:43Z jim: how are you doing the proof?
2014-05-01T23:54:09Z ANGRYSTEVE: what do you mean
2014-05-01T23:54:21Z jim: on paper?
2014-05-01T23:54:27Z ANGRYSTEVE: LaTeX
2014-05-01T23:54:40Z jim: oh ok
2014-05-01T23:55:03Z turbofail: well depending on what previous results you're allowed to refer to this could be easy
2014-05-01T23:55:28Z ANGRYSTEVE: Base case: for all natural numbers n2, 0 + n2 = n2
2014-05-01T23:55:28Z ANGRYSTEVE: Induction case: for all natural numbers k and n2, (1 + k) + n2 = 1 + (k + n2)
2014-05-01T23:55:29Z jim: what's the base case?
2014-05-01T23:55:40Z ANGRYSTEVE: that's the definition
2014-05-01T23:56:10Z jim: what's the specific equation of the base case?
2014-05-01T23:56:28Z ANGRYSTEVE: n_1+(1+n_2)=1+(n_1+n_2)
2014-05-01T23:56:58Z ANGRYSTEVE: plugged 0 into n_1
2014-05-01T23:57:23Z jim: so we can omit it, yes?
2014-05-01T23:57:44Z ANGRYSTEVE: got 0+(1+n_2)=1+(0+n_2) => 1+n_2=1+n_2 by definition 1
2014-05-01T23:58:25Z turbofail: it looks like they also previously prove that addition is associative, so you should be able to use that result as well
2014-05-01T23:58:54Z ANGRYSTEVE: oh cool
2014-05-01T23:58:58Z jim: so that reduces to 1 + n2 = 1 + n2?
2014-05-01T23:59:07Z ANGRYSTEVE: yeah it does
2014-05-01T23:59:16Z ANGRYSTEVE: am I wrong?
2014-05-01T23:59:39Z jim: so then you can subtract the constant, and you have n2 = n2
2014-05-01T23:59:49Z jim: which is true by reflexive rule
2014-05-02T00:00:32Z ANGRYSTEVE: I just left it as it is
2014-05-02T00:00:33Z turbofail: the only thing you don't get to use is commutativity
2014-05-02T00:00:41Z ANGRYSTEVE: am I even allowed to subtract the constant?
2014-05-02T00:00:42Z turbofail: because they do that in the next exercise
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2014-05-02T00:03:28Z ANGRYSTEVE: so use associative
2014-05-02T00:03:33Z ANGRYSTEVE: and it should be doable
2014-05-02T00:03:51Z jim: hmm. so the real problem is you don't know what you can use and what you can't
2014-05-02T00:04:15Z jim: and that leads to frustration
2014-05-02T00:04:19Z ANGRYSTEVE: I know
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2014-05-02T00:05:52Z ANGRYSTEVE: http://www.texpaste.com/n/61wra4m0
2014-05-02T00:05:56Z ANGRYSTEVE: not sure if I got the notation right
2014-05-02T00:06:18Z jim: if you knew what you can use, you could be more coonfident with it
2014-05-02T00:06:25Z ANGRYSTEVE: I meant A(n) where n is a natural number
2014-05-02T00:06:46Z jim: what's A?
2014-05-02T00:07:15Z ANGRYSTEVE: I guess I have to define that then
2014-05-02T00:07:51Z ANGRYSTEVE: the one above it
2014-05-02T00:08:06Z jim: do you have anything like "equals added to equals give equals"?
2014-05-02T00:08:19Z ANGRYSTEVE: uh
2014-05-02T00:08:32Z ANGRYSTEVE: haven't come across it
2014-05-02T00:08:53Z jim: that's what would allow you to subtract off the constant
2014-05-02T00:08:54Z turbofail: i think that would be implied given that it's a mathematical function
2014-05-02T00:09:29Z ANGRYSTEVE: talking about (7)?
2014-05-02T00:09:34Z ANGRYSTEVE: ah
2014-05-02T00:09:36Z ANGRYSTEVE: you can't see that
2014-05-02T00:09:51Z ANGRYSTEVE: 1+n_2=1+n_2
2014-05-02T00:10:07Z jim: yeah
2014-05-02T00:10:40Z jim: if you have something like that rule, you could then subtract the 1 from both sides
2014-05-02T00:10:56Z turbofail: the base case is taken care of, it's pretty clear that that has to be true
2014-05-02T00:11:03Z turbofail: it's the induction step that's tricky
2014-05-02T00:11:31Z ANGRYSTEVE: but it is correct so far?
2014-05-02T00:12:03Z ANGRYSTEVE: maybe I should've included the lemmas in the paste
2014-05-02T00:12:07Z ANGRYSTEVE: it's further up my paper :)
2014-05-02T00:12:54Z jim: wouldn't he have to prove both in order to prove this induction? aka base case AND induction case -> proof
2014-05-02T00:13:28Z turbofail: sure, and i'm saying showing that 1+n2 = 1+n2 is sufficient to prove the base case
2014-05-02T00:13:29Z ANGRYSTEVE: I think he just means that we know for a fact that the base case is true
2014-05-02T00:13:41Z zacts: ANGRYSTEVE: have you seen the mit ocw math for computer science lectures?
2014-05-02T00:13:48Z ANGRYSTEVE: I have not
2014-05-02T00:13:54Z zacts: just fyi, I don't know exactly what you guys are talking about..
2014-05-02T00:13:56Z ANGRYSTEVE: well, a little for algorithms
2014-05-02T00:14:19Z zacts: he teaches lots of mathematical induction
2014-05-02T00:14:54Z ANGRYSTEVE: I kinda just add that stuff to my "to-watch/do" list and forget about it
2014-05-02T00:15:17Z jim: if you have the base case, you have n2 = n2, so potentially you could subtract that off of the induction step
2014-05-02T00:15:40Z turbofail: no, you can't really do that
2014-05-02T00:16:28Z jim: ok, while I'm curious as to why not, don't answer that now, I'm just in the way right now
2014-05-02T00:16:29Z turbofail: proving n2 = n2 doesn't let you subtract anything
2014-05-02T00:16:53Z turbofail: well you don't even have to prove n2=n2 that's just something that's trivially true
2014-05-02T00:17:27Z jim: I'm out for the moment... I'm just in the way
2014-05-02T00:18:13Z jim: I'll ask all my questions after he's done
2014-05-02T00:22:30Z ANGRYSTEVE: I really don't know what to do
2014-05-02T00:22:41Z ANGRYSTEVE: maybe the ##math dudes can help
2014-05-02T00:22:53Z turbofail: hm.  i think you can't actually do what you did in your last step there
2014-05-02T00:23:48Z turbofail: ((1 + k) + n2) can be turned into (1 + (k + n2)) but not necessarily (k + (1 + n2))
2014-05-02T00:23:58Z turbofail: at least not until you've proven commutativity
2014-05-02T00:24:18Z ANGRYSTEVE: kinda just used lemma 2, no?
2014-05-02T00:25:26Z ANGRYSTEVE: I considered (1+n2) to be just n2
2014-05-02T00:25:31Z ANGRYSTEVE: am I wrong to do that?
2014-05-02T00:25:32Z copumpkin: http://agda.github.io/agda-stdlib/html/Data.Nat.Properties.Simple.html#818
2014-05-02T00:25:36Z turbofail: oh i guess you can do that
2014-05-02T00:25:40Z turbofail: based on the definition given for addition
2014-05-02T00:26:41Z ANGRYSTEVE: can I use my IH on it?
2014-05-02T00:27:31Z copumpkin: (my link is a proof of the same fact)
2014-05-02T00:28:40Z ANGRYSTEVE: mmh
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2014-05-02T00:34:34Z ANGRYSTEVE: I asked the math dudes
2014-05-02T00:35:13Z copumpkin: enlightened?
2014-05-02T00:35:36Z ANGRYSTEVE: ignored so far :P
2014-05-02T00:36:11Z ANGRYSTEVE: not sure if this was meant for me
2014-05-02T00:36:13Z ANGRYSTEVE: [02:34:44] [antonfire] I'm not prepared to comment on the mysteries of why that is, because I don't know how you actually got your equation.
2014-05-02T00:39:53Z ANGRYSTEVE: yeah, I don't know what I'm doing wrong
2014-05-02T00:44:35Z ANGRYSTEVE: what if I used my hypothesis
2014-05-02T00:44:55Z turbofail: yeah you can use your hypothesis
2014-05-02T00:45:22Z ANGRYSTEVE: not sure what to make of k+(1+(1+n_2))
2014-05-02T00:45:54Z turbofail: basically (+ (+ 1 n1) (+ 1 n2)) => (+ 1 (+ n1 (+ 1 n2))), but since you already know (+ n1 (+ 1 n2)) = (+ 1 (+ n1 n2)), then you end up with (+ 1 (+ 1 (+ n1 n2))))
2014-05-02T00:46:23Z ANGRYSTEVE: nooo, not that notation
2014-05-02T00:46:27Z turbofail: well you're hypothesizing that (+ n1 (+ 1 n2)) = (+ 1 (+ n1 n2))
2014-05-02T00:46:50Z turbofail: and then if you go to work on the other side you end up with something similar
2014-05-02T00:47:19Z ANGRYSTEVE: so there are some cases wher you can't work your way from the left hand side
2014-05-02T00:47:22Z ANGRYSTEVE: where*
2014-05-02T00:47:57Z turbofail: hm?
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2014-05-02T00:48:25Z ANGRYSTEVE: I mean I only worked with the left hand side and reason my way towards obtaining the right hand side
2014-05-02T00:48:38Z ANGRYSTEVE: and there may be cases where I can't?
2014-05-02T00:48:46Z turbofail: well if you fiddled with it enough you could get it to just equal the right hand side
2014-05-02T00:48:59Z turbofail: it's always possible, but it may not be easier to think about
2014-05-02T00:49:10Z ANGRYSTEVE: I totally can't read that notation you write it in
2014-05-02T00:49:11Z ANGRYSTEVE: yet..
2014-05-02T00:49:51Z ANGRYSTEVE: so I use my hypothesis on the lhs
2014-05-02T00:49:55Z ANGRYSTEVE: then work on my rhs
2014-05-02T00:50:48Z turbofail: as i said, it's not necessary to do it that way, i just found it easier to do it that way
2014-05-02T00:51:05Z ANGRYSTEVE: I'm out of ideas
2014-05-02T00:51:08Z ANGRYSTEVE: might as well try
2014-05-02T00:51:51Z turbofail: especially because the right hand side directly reduces into what we just got for the left hand side using the supplied definition of addition
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2014-05-02T00:54:30Z ANGRYSTEVE: omg yay
2014-05-02T00:55:47Z ANGRYSTEVE: lhs use definition 2
2014-05-02T00:55:51Z ANGRYSTEVE: rhs use my hypothesis
2014-05-02T00:55:53Z ANGRYSTEVE: that's it?
2014-05-02T00:57:27Z turbofail: should be
2014-05-02T00:57:42Z ANGRYSTEVE: finally I can do exercise 6
2014-05-02T00:57:56Z turbofail: well my way was using definition 2 and the hypothesis on the lhs, and then definition 2 on the rhs
2014-05-02T00:58:55Z ANGRYSTEVE: ah yes, I did use definition 2 and the hypothesis on my rhs
2014-05-02T00:59:20Z ANGRYSTEVE: now jim can ask :)
2014-05-02T01:05:00Z ANGRYSTEVE: I don't know how to start this
2014-05-02T01:06:34Z ANGRYSTEVE: set either n1 or n2 to 0?
2014-05-02T01:06:35Z turbofail: well do the base case first
2014-05-02T01:06:40Z ANGRYSTEVE: n1 it is
2014-05-02T01:06:41Z turbofail: yeah
2014-05-02T01:07:33Z turbofail: by definition 1 you get (+ 0 n2) = n2, and by the result of exercise 4 you get (+ n2 0) = n2
2014-05-02T01:07:43Z ANGRYSTEVE: right right
2014-05-02T01:11:23Z ANGRYSTEVE: you mean I should use exercise 4's assumption, which got proved
2014-05-02T01:11:28Z turbofail: yeah
2014-05-02T01:13:16Z turbofail: and for the induction step, there's a pretty obvious way to apply the equality proven in exercise 5 to the right hand side
2014-05-02T01:15:52Z turbofail: basically the way to do it is to just dive in and start applying the various substitutions that you know of, as long as they seem like they might make sense
2014-05-02T01:16:26Z ANGRYSTEVE: I always think about "what you know"
2014-05-02T01:16:33Z ANGRYSTEVE: if I can use such and such
2014-05-02T01:24:33Z ANGRYSTEVE: lol got 1+(k+n2) = 1+(n2+k) in the induction case
2014-05-02T01:24:52Z ANGRYSTEVE: then I can use the hypothesis I guess
2014-05-02T01:25:18Z ANGRYSTEVE: or can I?
2014-05-02T01:25:29Z ANGRYSTEVE: yeah Ican
2014-05-02T01:27:48Z ANGRYSTEVE: one last induction proof
2014-05-02T01:27:50Z ANGRYSTEVE: omg
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2014-05-02T01:35:54Z ANGRYSTEVE: yeah, I don't know how to start this
2014-05-02T01:37:50Z ANGRYSTEVE: do I have to write my own special case?
2014-05-02T01:38:13Z ANGRYSTEVE: (x * y) * z = 0
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2014-05-02T01:49:51Z ANGRYSTEVE: turbofail, help :D
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2014-05-02T01:52:48Z turbofail: checking it out now
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2014-05-02T01:53:34Z ANGRYSTEVE: or x * (y * z) = 0
2014-05-02T01:53:56Z ANGRYSTEVE: I don't know
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2014-05-02T01:55:22Z turbofail: what are we doing?  proving that multiplication of associativity?
2014-05-02T01:55:28Z ANGRYSTEVE: yeah
2014-05-02T01:55:30Z turbofail: s/of/has/
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2014-05-02T01:55:59Z ANGRYSTEVE: I realized that I have to show that it's associative through tracing as well
2014-05-02T01:56:02Z ANGRYSTEVE: mmh 1 sec
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2014-05-02T01:58:41Z ANGRYSTEVE: not sure what it means me to do
2014-05-02T01:59:11Z ANGRYSTEVE: (mul 3 (mul 3 2)) == (mul (mul 3 3) 2)?
2014-05-02T02:03:53Z ANGRYSTEVE: oh well
2014-05-02T02:03:56Z ANGRYSTEVE: the induction part
2014-05-02T02:05:31Z turbofail: ok.  well first pick an induction variable
2014-05-02T02:05:53Z turbofail: well actually first write down the equation you're intending to actually prove
2014-05-02T02:07:11Z turbofail: hm.  it might be useful to prove some other stuff first, like distributivity
2014-05-02T02:07:28Z ANGRYSTEVE: dear lord
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2014-05-02T02:07:30Z turbofail: but anyway
2014-05-02T02:07:39Z turbofail: try it without it first
2014-05-02T02:08:07Z ANGRYSTEVE: when you say induction varible
2014-05-02T02:08:42Z ANGRYSTEVE: variable*
2014-05-02T02:08:47Z ANGRYSTEVE: what do you mean?
2014-05-02T02:09:01Z turbofail: that'll be the variable that you replace with 1 and k+1
2014-05-02T02:09:32Z ANGRYSTEVE: but I didn't do the base case
2014-05-02T02:09:43Z ANGRYSTEVE: oh
2014-05-02T02:09:46Z ANGRYSTEVE: okay
2014-05-02T02:10:10Z turbofail: right to even do a base case you need to pick an induction variable
2014-05-02T02:10:49Z ANGRYSTEVE: so, say x?
2014-05-02T02:11:01Z turbofail: sure.  pretty sure it doesn't matter what you choose, just choose one
2014-05-02T02:11:08Z ANGRYSTEVE: x it is
2014-05-02T02:11:39Z turbofail: i'm assuming you're attempting to prove (* x (* y z)) = (* (* x y) z)
2014-05-02T02:12:28Z ANGRYSTEVE: that right hand side came from for all natural numbers k and n2, (1 + k) * n2 = n2 + (k * n2)?
2014-05-02T02:13:26Z turbofail: no, that right side came from what associativity means
2014-05-02T02:13:46Z turbofail: this is what we're attempting to prove using induction
2014-05-02T02:14:05Z ANGRYSTEVE: ooh okay
2014-05-02T02:14:32Z turbofail: so anyway, on to the base case
2014-05-02T02:15:59Z ANGRYSTEVE: yes
2014-05-02T02:16:56Z turbofail: if x is going to be our induction variable then you can just substitute 0 for x in that equation and use the rules of definition for multiplication to verify that it works
2014-05-02T02:17:53Z ANGRYSTEVE: alright, I see the pattern now
2014-05-02T02:19:18Z ANGRYSTEVE: do I just treat (y * z) as n2?
2014-05-02T02:19:54Z turbofail: no, you're going to need to keep those separate
2014-05-02T02:20:24Z turbofail: you only get (y * z) on one side of that equation
2014-05-02T02:20:30Z ANGRYSTEVE: then I will just work with the right hand side
2014-05-02T02:25:11Z ANGRYSTEVE: (0 * y) * z = 0 * z = 0
2014-05-02T02:25:26Z ANGRYSTEVE: by using the definition
2014-05-02T02:25:28Z turbofail: yep
2014-05-02T02:26:18Z ANGRYSTEVE: that's where I wonder about lfs
2014-05-02T02:26:20Z ANGRYSTEVE: lhs*
2014-05-02T02:26:35Z turbofail: what's stopping you from getting 0 on the lhs?
2014-05-02T02:26:59Z turbofail: (* 0 (* y z)) => 0
2014-05-02T02:27:07Z ANGRYSTEVE: that's what i asked you about
2014-05-02T02:27:14Z ANGRYSTEVE: if I could treat (y * z) as n_2
2014-05-02T02:27:15Z turbofail: oh i misunderstood your question
2014-05-02T02:27:17Z ANGRYSTEVE: and use the definition
2014-05-02T02:27:28Z turbofail: yes you can do that
2014-05-02T02:27:30Z ANGRYSTEVE: as in 0 * n_2 = 0
2014-05-02T02:27:32Z ANGRYSTEVE: alright
2014-05-02T02:27:34Z ANGRYSTEVE: no problem then :D
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2014-05-02T02:37:02Z ANGRYSTEVE: okay now it just looks odd
2014-05-02T02:37:44Z ANGRYSTEVE: wait wait maybe if I used my IH
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2014-05-02T02:39:35Z turbofail: hm.  this really does get a lot easier if you prove distributivity first
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2014-05-02T02:42:11Z turbofail: i would strongly suggest doing that first, i.e. prove (* (+ x y) z) == (+ (* x z) (* y z))
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2014-05-02T02:43:07Z ANGRYSTEVE: hey my lecturer did mention it
2014-05-02T02:43:16Z ANGRYSTEVE: "A useful thing to remember, besides the inductive case in the definition of multiplication, is that multiplication distributes over addition."
2014-05-02T02:48:04Z ANGRYSTEVE: I don't know if I should prove
2014-05-02T02:48:24Z ANGRYSTEVE: distributivity
2014-05-02T02:48:26Z ANGRYSTEVE: or just use it
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2014-05-02T02:51:40Z ANGRYSTEVE: yes, I will just use it
2014-05-02T02:51:50Z ANGRYSTEVE: and assume that it is already proven
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2014-05-02T02:51:51Z ANGRYSTEVE: :>
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2014-05-02T02:56:51Z ANGRYSTEVE: I don't know how to do this
2014-05-02T02:57:15Z ANGRYSTEVE: definition 4 on lhs and then use IH then distribute?
2014-05-02T02:57:39Z ANGRYSTEVE: without IH even
2014-05-02T02:58:28Z ANGRYSTEVE: nah, I don't know
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2014-05-02T03:02:42Z ANGRYSTEVE: getting too late for me
2014-05-02T03:02:45Z ANGRYSTEVE: cya guys :)
2014-05-02T03:02:48Z ANGRYSTEVE: I will try tomorrow
2014-05-02T03:03:04Z ANGRYSTEVE: this is ridiculous lol
2014-05-02T03:03:06Z ANGRYSTEVE: proof after proof
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2014-05-02T13:47:54Z jim: I'm looking for a way to selectively group things, like (a a b b a a a b b b b a) might become (a a (b b) a a a (b b b b) a)
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2014-05-02T13:52:05Z vanila: I would have a state machine which accepts symbols from the input list, and outputs either the symbol itself, or stores them up in a list to emit all at once
2014-05-02T13:54:48Z ijp: this seems like a very weird thing to want
2014-05-02T13:55:25Z z0d: it's much easier to write a recursive procedure
2014-05-02T13:55:28Z ijp: ((a a) (b b) (a a a) (b b b b) (a)), fair enough
2014-05-02T13:55:33Z vanila: easier than what
2014-05-02T13:55:58Z z0d: then to implement a state machine
2014-05-02T13:56:03Z ijp: jim: what are are you actually trying to do?
2014-05-02T13:56:10Z oleo: well, one direction is flattening but only one level down....the other direction is peeling and again only one level....
2014-05-02T13:56:13Z vanila: it's the same thing
2014-05-02T13:58:01Z oleo: ((a) b ((c))) -> (a (c))
2014-05-02T13:58:32Z oleo: selecting or filtering same level elems/sublists ?
2014-05-02T13:59:23Z oleo: there was a structure preserving tree walker.....
2014-05-02T14:00:23Z oleo: well i mean flatten obviously encompasses all levels.... if you want just one level call it peeling or so....
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2014-05-02T14:24:34Z jim: vanila, yeah, that was probably my first thought...
2014-05-02T14:24:45Z vanila: do you know how to write it ?
2014-05-02T14:25:16Z jim: no, not exactly
2014-05-02T14:25:23Z jim: I started with....
2014-05-02T14:26:16Z oleo: and having a closure which just does that .....would be awesome....
2014-05-02T14:26:25Z oleo: i.e. peel once every call.....
2014-05-02T14:27:12Z jim: ijp, I'm forming input for lilypond
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2014-05-02T14:27:53Z jim: what I actually want to do, is turn some of the rests into duration when it follows an attack
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2014-05-02T14:28:16Z vanila: ???
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2014-05-02T14:28:54Z oleo: music....notation.....
2014-05-02T14:29:41Z oleo: that's what lilypond is about ?
2014-05-02T14:30:39Z jim: so I'm dividing up the work... first I want to group things to be consolidated, then I want to run one of many consolidators that follow the rules of various time signatures
2014-05-02T14:31:05Z jim: for example in 4 4 time you don't use dotted rests
2014-05-02T14:31:39Z vanila: what did you start with
2014-05-02T14:31:55Z jim: the output of a permutation function
2014-05-02T14:32:09Z jim: a list of lists, each inner list is a measure
2014-05-02T14:33:58Z jim: I havent' been able to figure out the builtin scheme in lilypond, so I used guile completely outside of scheme
2014-05-02T14:35:57Z ijp: jim: the function is pretty easy to write if you take advantage of builtins like take/drop/break/span
2014-05-02T14:35:57Z jim: I was thinking of having a grouping func outside the main loop, but then how would I pass the input list back, having been partially consumed?
2014-05-02T14:36:13Z ijp: (srfi srfi-1)
2014-05-02T14:37:05Z jim: you mean pass the output and partially consumed input in a list?
2014-05-02T14:37:14Z vanila: I"ll show you what I mean about state machine if you liek
2014-05-02T14:37:49Z jim: ok. let me show you wnat I did so far (not much, just trying to get started)
2014-05-02T14:38:34Z vanila: okay
2014-05-02T14:40:47Z jim: http://pastie.org/9133868
2014-05-02T14:41:09Z jim: hmm, I started to write a grouper, forgot to save with it
2014-05-02T14:41:18Z vanila: jim, yes this is a good start
2014-05-02T14:41:23Z vanila: http://pastebin.com/raw.php?i=c0ikKTC7
2014-05-02T14:41:42Z vanila: I put an example where it has the state as a parameter
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2014-05-02T14:42:16Z vanila: just realized it should be cons b-group not append, but anyway
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2014-05-02T14:42:58Z jim: http://pastie.org/9133875
2014-05-02T14:42:59Z vanila: but anyway, you see when it sees a b it collects it, and otherwise it flushes out the group into the output and processes more symbols
2014-05-02T14:43:22Z jim: let me look at your paste...
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2014-05-02T14:55:24Z jim: the rules of the rest grouper... if it sees resta at the start, it leaves them... if there are more than one, it groups them... if it sees rests after attacks, it groups the attack and then turns the rests following that attack into note values, with the idea they will become some combination of longer note values and tied notes in the final output
2014-05-02T14:56:29Z jim: so this is all keyed on whether it sees a rest, and where it sees it
2014-05-02T14:57:28Z jim: if r is rest, and g is a note, there will be digits after telling the duration
2014-05-02T14:58:04Z jim: like, r8 is an 8th note rest and g8 is the 8th note G
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2014-05-02T14:58:44Z jim: you can see in the paste I made a coupla examples
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2014-05-02T19:46:25Z zacts: jim: working on lilypond?
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2014-05-02T21:00:35Z Gyps: Can someone help me out with this
2014-05-02T21:00:36Z Gyps: http://i.imgur.com/eC4e8iO.png
2014-05-02T21:01:35Z ijp: what is your difficulty
2014-05-02T21:02:02Z Gyps: Ive been trying to create helper functions to break it down but I don't think Im going in the right direction
2014-05-02T21:03:16Z nisstyre: Gyps: you could just sum both of the lists which gives you numbers, then get the remainder, then transform that into a list of 1s
2014-05-02T21:03:21Z Gyps: I was using two helpers, one that returned #t if ls1 > ls2 and another that subtracts 2 unary lists
2014-05-02T21:03:25Z nisstyre: so have a procedure that sums lists of 1s
2014-05-02T21:03:33Z nisstyre: a procedure that turns a number into a list of 1s
2014-05-02T21:03:36Z ijp: nisstyre: while correct, I think it defeats the spirit of the exercise
2014-05-02T21:03:46Z nisstyre: and a procedure that gets the remainder of two numbers
2014-05-02T21:03:47Z Gyps: I have to keep it in unary
2014-05-02T21:03:51Z nisstyre: ijp: perhaps
2014-05-02T21:03:55Z Gyps: Im not allowed to convert to decimal
2014-05-02T21:04:01Z nisstyre: okay
2014-05-02T21:04:14Z nisstyre: so you'll have to come up with an algorithm for dividing the two lists
2014-05-02T21:04:36Z ijp: Gyps: those sound like useful procedures to have
2014-05-02T21:04:46Z Gyps: Ive made a divide function
2014-05-02T21:04:51Z Gyps: (define udivide
2014-05-02T21:04:52Z Gyps:   (lambda (ls1 ls2)
2014-05-02T21:04:53Z Gyps:     (cond
2014-05-02T21:04:54Z Gyps:       [(null? ls1) '()]
2014-05-02T21:04:55Z Gyps:       [else (cons 'l (udivide (usubtract ls1 ls2)ls2))])))
2014-05-02T21:05:01Z nisstyre: please use ideone.com to paste code
2014-05-02T21:05:10Z ijp: alternative pastebins are available
2014-05-02T21:05:18Z nisstyre: yeah or whichever one you like
2014-05-02T21:05:22Z nisstyre: ideone supports several scheme dialects
2014-05-02T21:05:31Z Gyps: interesting I've never heard of that
2014-05-02T21:06:11Z nisstyre: well it has Guile and Clojure
2014-05-02T21:06:13Z nisstyre: good enough
2014-05-02T21:06:22Z nisstyre: I thought it had Chicken too, maybe they got rid of it
2014-05-02T21:06:32Z Gyps: http://ideone.com/7mYooh
2014-05-02T21:06:46Z Gyps: So here are some of the helper functions I've been messing with
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2014-05-02T21:07:43Z ijp: Gyps: well, as you know, remainder is kind of a complementary operation to divide
2014-05-02T21:08:08Z nisstyre: Gyps: you're close I think
2014-05-02T21:08:17Z nisstyre: you just need to figure out how to also return the remainder of the division
2014-05-02T21:08:28Z ijp: x / y = a remainder b is the same thing as saying x = a * y + b
2014-05-02T21:08:29Z nisstyre: that will be whatever is left over
2014-05-02T21:08:43Z Gyps: Should I recursively divide ls1 until its smaller than ls2 in which case return ls2?
2014-05-02T21:08:59Z ijp: with division, you have been counting the subtractions (a)
2014-05-02T21:09:37Z ijp: but how would you get b instead?
2014-05-02T21:10:45Z Gyps: [5:08pm] ijp: x / y = a remainder b is the same thing as saying x = a * y + b
2014-05-02T21:10:56Z nisstyre: for example if you want to divid '(1 1 1 1 1) by '(1 1) then your remainder will be '(1)
2014-05-02T21:10:59Z nisstyre: *divide
2014-05-02T21:10:59Z Gyps: I'm not sure what you mean
2014-05-02T21:11:12Z ijp: Gyps: that is the definition of remainder
2014-05-02T21:12:02Z Gyps: hmm
2014-05-02T21:12:25Z nisstyre: rudybot: (remainder 5 2)
2014-05-02T21:12:26Z rudybot: nisstyre: your sandbox is ready
2014-05-02T21:12:26Z rudybot: nisstyre: ; Value: 1
2014-05-02T21:13:15Z ijp: rudybot: (div-and-mod 10 3)
2014-05-02T21:13:15Z rudybot: ijp: error: div-and-mod: undefined; <NEWLINE>  cannot reference an identifier before its definition <NEWLINE>   in module: 'program
2014-05-02T21:13:21Z ijp: blast, what's the name of that function
2014-05-02T21:13:26Z nisstyre: divmod?
2014-05-02T21:13:29Z Gyps: mod
2014-05-02T21:13:29Z nisstyre: or something like that
2014-05-02T21:13:35Z Gyps: and remainder right
2014-05-02T21:14:21Z ijp: rudybot: (quotient/remainder 10 3)
2014-05-02T21:14:22Z rudybot: ijp: ; Value: 3
2014-05-02T21:14:23Z rudybot: ijp: ; Value#2: 1
2014-05-02T21:14:43Z ijp: so, that says that if you divide 10 by 3, you get 3 with 1 left over
2014-05-02T21:14:49Z Gyps: So what I need to do is recursively divide ls2 into ls1 until I'm left with an uneven divde in which case i return that number
2014-05-02T21:14:59Z ijp: not recursively divide, no
2014-05-02T21:15:13Z ijp: rudybot: (= 10 (+ 1 (* 3 3)))
2014-05-02T21:15:14Z rudybot: ijp: ; Value: #t
2014-05-02T21:16:13Z ijp: Gyps: so, by the definition of remainder, it's what you have left, when you removethe divisor as much times as possible
2014-05-02T21:16:51Z Gyps: yeah thats what I meant by dividing ls2 into ls1 until you can't divide evenly which would give you the remainder right?
2014-05-02T21:18:13Z Gyps: I guess my divide wouldn't do that though
2014-05-02T21:18:16Z Gyps: subtract would though
2014-05-02T21:18:23Z ijp: very good
2014-05-02T21:19:29Z ijp: Gyps: for the record, repeated division is logs :)
2014-05-02T21:20:09Z Gyps: yeah we have to write a unary log function too <.<
2014-05-02T21:21:49Z ijp: well, I just gave the game away
2014-05-02T21:22:25Z Gyps: lol easier said than done. We still have to keep everything in unary, can't convert to decimal
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2014-05-02T21:23:16Z ijp: Gyps: well, you now have a unary division function, and you've been accidentally proposing it for the past N minutes
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2014-05-02T21:24:37Z Gyps: but we have to do it with base 2 log
2014-05-02T21:24:54Z Gyps: and return the integer
2014-05-02T21:24:56Z ijp: so, you always divide by two
2014-05-02T21:25:08Z ijp: trust me, you can do this
2014-05-02T21:26:51Z Gyps: I can make a divide2 function but idk if I can apply it
2014-05-02T21:27:07Z Gyps: http://ideone.com/zI9JIx
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2014-05-02T21:32:48Z jim: rudybot, (list-match "([^0-9]*)([0-9]*)" "r16")
2014-05-02T21:32:49Z rudybot: jim: your sandbox is ready
2014-05-02T21:32:49Z rudybot: jim: error: list-match: undefined; <NEWLINE>  cannot reference an identifier before its definition <NEWLINE>   in module: 'program
2014-05-02T21:34:53Z offby1: rudybot: regexp-match
2014-05-02T21:34:54Z rudybot: *offby1: I'm having a problem with regex, this line fails to return a result : (regexp-match* "[\\s]+" " ")
2014-05-02T21:34:57Z offby1: rudybot: eval regexp-match
2014-05-02T21:34:58Z rudybot: *offby1: your sandbox is ready
2014-05-02T21:34:58Z rudybot: *offby1: ; Value: #<procedure:regexp-match>
2014-05-02T21:34:59Z jim: hmm, can't use rudybot for that?
2014-05-02T21:35:06Z offby1: rudybot, (regexp-match "([^0-9]*)([0-9]*)" "r16")
2014-05-02T21:35:07Z rudybot: *offby1: ; Value: '("r16" "r" "16")
2014-05-02T21:35:18Z offby1: rudybot: later tell jim how it's done, my boy.
2014-05-02T21:35:18Z rudybot: *offby1: I asked `MemoServ' to forward the message to jim.
2014-05-02T21:35:22Z offby1 whistles innocently 
2014-05-02T21:37:03Z ijp: Gyps: your divide-two function is missing a case for one
2014-05-02T21:37:36Z jim: wow, I have a memo from 2009
2014-05-02T21:38:12Z ijp: jim: does it say "your irc has been cut off due to late payment"
2014-05-02T21:38:41Z Gyps: ijp: what case am i missing
2014-05-02T21:39:06Z Gyps: if it doesn't divide evenly to reach the null case?
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2014-05-02T21:39:30Z ijp: Gyps: what happens if you divde by 1?
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2014-05-02T21:39:35Z ijp: er, divide 1 by two
2014-05-02T21:39:40Z Gyps: So maybe (null? (car ls)) (car ls))?
2014-05-02T21:39:47Z jim: yeah, that's why ive been gone for 5 years...
2014-05-02T21:39:58Z Gyps: err
2014-05-02T21:40:03Z ASau joined #scheme
2014-05-02T21:40:32Z jim: you need one more (
2014-05-02T21:40:53Z jim: well if it's a cond
2014-05-02T21:41:10Z ijp: (cdr ls), (car l1) is always 1 in your representation
2014-05-02T21:42:33Z jim: list-match was giving me these (x . y) things describing substrings... I guess I can get the substrings themselves from regex-match?
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2014-05-02T21:46:37Z jim: damn, I can't hit the ground running in this language yet
2014-05-02T21:46:58Z Gyps: ijp: So add this line  [(equal? (car ls) 'l) ls]?
2014-05-02T21:47:05Z Gyps: eer
2014-05-02T21:47:06Z Gyps: no
2014-05-02T21:47:14Z Gyps: id just get the ls every time haha
2014-05-02T21:48:11Z Gyps:  [(null? (cdr ls)) ls]
2014-05-02T21:48:13Z Gyps: is what I need
2014-05-02T21:50:03Z jim: what is [...] for (outside of regexps)?
2014-05-02T21:51:55Z vanila: i think people use [] rather than () to make code "readable"
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2014-05-02T21:52:17Z jim: so it's like (...) but just looks different?
2014-05-02T21:52:34Z Gyps: I use []'s inside of conditionals
2014-05-02T21:52:36Z jim: I'm all about making things look readable :)
2014-05-02T21:53:40Z vanila: its more readable to write good code and just use ()
2014-05-02T21:54:11Z ijp: Gyps: depends, is 1/2 = 1 right?
2014-05-02T21:54:40Z Gyps: no
2014-05-02T21:55:30Z hiroakip quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
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2014-05-02T21:57:47Z ijp: then you will need to correct your line
2014-05-02T21:58:30Z jim: I get unbound variable when I try to use regexp-match, I have guile-1.8.8, do I need something newer or something?
2014-05-02T21:58:47Z ijp: jim: it works in the repl, yes?
2014-05-02T21:59:07Z jim: "repl"?
2014-05-02T21:59:17Z ijp: anyway, no it doesn't
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2014-05-02T22:00:01Z ijp: jim: regexp functions like in (ice-9 regex), but tehre is no function called regexp-match
2014-05-02T22:00:06Z ijp: live in*
2014-05-02T22:00:27Z ijp: for historical reasons, that is imported by default in the guile repl, but not in scripts
2014-05-02T22:00:51Z jim: oh, is that readevalprintloop?
2014-05-02T22:01:00Z jim: aka the shell?
2014-05-02T22:01:02Z ijp: yes
2014-05-02T22:01:11Z ijp: the function is called string-match
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2014-05-02T22:02:43Z jim: thamks. I feel so weak, and I didn't think I would/should... I did sicp, saw the 1985 lectures, and years before that read Anatomy of Lisp, and implemented the evals...
2014-05-02T22:03:18Z karswell quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2014-05-02T22:03:49Z jim: on the lectures, it had the one near the end on eval and apply... I implemented it and fixed their bugs :)
2014-05-02T22:05:44Z jim: I feel like a green beginner...
2014-05-02T22:09:32Z jim: ok, so I'm getting that match data structure, and I'd like to get the matched substrings
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2014-05-02T22:13:19Z jim: I'm writing out the string-match calls and the match:substring calls now
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2014-05-02T22:40:53Z jim: OK, that seems to work... so now, I'm going thru a list, and as a first cut just putting the list items into the output list... but now, I want to keep track of something I detect while going thru the list, and have the way I'm collecting the items into the output list change based on whether it's true or false.
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2014-05-02T22:42:21Z jim: and I may need to delay putting items in until I see things about the list
2014-05-02T22:42:43Z daviid: jim: I may have missed a train here but why not guile-2 ?
2014-05-02T22:43:25Z jim: can lilypond build using guile-2?
2014-05-02T22:44:19Z jim: (that may not matter as right now I'm just using guile to write a lilypond text file, and I'm -not- using the guile in lilypond)
2014-05-02T22:45:35Z jim: for one thing, as of this moment I wasn't aware there was a 2... that's probably the answer to your question :)
2014-05-02T22:45:55Z ijp: guile 2 is about 3 years old now
2014-05-02T22:46:09Z jim: is there a guile 3?
2014-05-02T22:46:19Z ijp: no
2014-05-02T22:46:35Z jim: so, guile-2 is the latest
2014-05-02T22:46:44Z ijp: in the near future, you may see a 2.2
2014-05-02T22:47:15Z jim: how would you characterize how point releases change?
2014-05-02T22:48:53Z jim: "point releases do not -ever- invalidate any existing code"? "point releases try extremely hard not to invalidate"?
2014-05-02T22:49:30Z civodul quit (Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs))
2014-05-02T22:49:38Z ijp: it's hard to come up with a generalisation that would accurately reflect guile's history
2014-05-02T22:49:59Z jim: ok, that's fair
2014-05-02T22:50:17Z ijp: a.b.c ; c is your usual run of the mill updates ; b is much bigger, may involve removal of deprecated features
2014-05-02T22:50:18Z jim: howbout 2.1?
2014-05-02T22:50:39Z jim: oh ok
2014-05-02T22:50:59Z ijp: the theory was .odd unstable .even stable, but we seem to be skipping the odd ones
2014-05-02T22:51:15Z ijp: for b
2014-05-02T22:51:32Z jim: oh, so 2.0 is the latest stable?
2014-05-02T22:51:39Z ijp: 2.0.11
2014-05-02T22:52:07Z ijp: c just increments
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2014-05-02T22:56:13Z jim: OK, good enough... how do you feel when it turns out the person you're helping is using say 1.8.8?
2014-05-02T22:57:25Z jim: feel free to substitute channel policy if you want :)
2014-05-02T22:59:26Z ijp: I generally hope they are knowledgeable about 1.8 because I can't remember all the differences
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2014-05-02T23:02:20Z jim: I see, fair enough
2014-05-02T23:03:17Z daviid: jim: no, lilypond still depend upon guile-1.8
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2014-05-02T23:19:57Z jim: is 1.8.8 the last 1.* before 2.0.0?
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2014-05-02T23:25:16Z jim: I could build a 2.0.11 in my home dir
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2014-05-02T23:29:10Z azathoth99: guile?
2014-05-02T23:29:13Z azathoth99: trying artanis? glow?
2014-05-02T23:29:42Z jim: dunno what those are :)
2014-05-02T23:30:19Z jim: what are those?
2014-05-02T23:31:03Z azathoth99: web app framework done in guile 2
2014-05-02T23:31:07Z azathoth99: new n shiny
2014-05-02T23:31:21Z azathoth99: apparently some young blood on guile team
2014-05-02T23:31:47Z azathoth99: I am interested in gambit now I heard its so fast
2014-05-02T23:31:59Z azathoth99: and if scheme shell's sunet with get 64 bit version
2014-05-02T23:32:18Z azathoth99: thats has multicore friendly system of some sort
2014-05-02T23:33:01Z jim: the web app framework I'm using right now is openacs, which is tcl and postgres
2014-05-02T23:33:10Z choas quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2014-05-02T23:33:36Z jim: its roots come out of MIT
2014-05-02T23:34:12Z ijp: azathoth99: fuck off gavino
2014-05-02T23:34:28Z daviid: jim: if it is to write code for lilypond it's not worth it.  but if you write other stuff/app, you should not even try to write guile-1.8 code
2014-05-02T23:34:31Z azathoth99: oow I love tcl and openacs
2014-05-02T23:34:35Z azathoth99: and pg
2014-05-02T23:35:22Z azathoth99: so openacs is still kicking eh?
2014-05-02T23:35:24Z jim: so do I, it's very slick when it works right :)
2014-05-02T23:35:33Z jim: yep
2014-05-02T23:35:34Z azathoth99: been a while since I heard from anyone using it
2014-05-02T23:36:03Z ijp: I find it hard to imagine you ever actually using anything, gavino
2014-05-02T23:36:40Z azathoth99: ijp: why is that?
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2014-05-02T23:40:54Z jim: daviid, either version of guile will be fine for what I'm doing presently... I think I've given up on figuring out how guile interfaces with lilypond
2014-05-02T23:42:27Z vanila: tcl is great!
2014-05-02T23:42:46Z ijp: gesundheit
2014-05-02T23:43:36Z jim: yeah, it took me awhile to come to the same conclusion... the tcl devs try very hard to not invalidate existing code
2014-05-02T23:44:02Z jim: it's hard to crash it, and it's great for those two reasons alone
2014-05-02T23:47:44Z azathoth99: I was just reading yesterday about how tcl garbage collection is faster than python's any why.
2014-05-02T23:48:24Z ijp left #scheme
2014-05-02T23:49:56Z jim: tcl has some caching attributes useful for speeding up web stuff too, not sure the details
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2014-05-02T23:53:18Z z0d: azathoth99: is Python's GC make your programs slow?
2014-05-02T23:53:22Z z0d: does*
2014-05-02T23:56:59Z jaimef: python makes my scheme slow
2014-05-02T23:57:06Z racycle__ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2014-05-02T23:57:24Z jim: any scripting language that needs a gc is going to be slower than one that doesn't... one of the hallmarks of scripting languages is that they shield the programmer from having to pay attention to memory allocation
2014-05-02T23:58:05Z nisstyre: jim: one of the other hallmarks, actually probably the defining feature of scripting languages is that they're used to script programs
2014-05-02T23:58:21Z nisstyre: hence "scripting" language
2014-05-02T23:58:26Z jim: when the gc is running, it's going to slow things down, some more than others, some less
2014-05-02T23:58:39Z nisstyre: actually it will interrupt the execution of the program
2014-05-02T23:58:47Z nisstyre: it won't slow down other instructions
2014-05-02T23:59:00Z jim: nisstyre, right of course... I was looking in a different hall!
2014-05-02T23:59:01Z nisstyre: it will slow down the whole program though
2014-05-02T23:59:55Z nisstyre: you can get some pretty damn good performance from Scheme programs though
2014-05-02T23:59:57Z nisstyre: with the right compiler
2014-05-03T00:00:13Z jim: when I looked in the hall you're taking about, I mistook it for a stadium!
2014-05-03T00:00:32Z nisstyre: :p
2014-05-03T00:10:30Z z0d: you guys are worrying too much about performance in advance
2014-05-03T00:14:06Z jim: I'm not :)
2014-05-03T00:15:07Z jim: I don't (yet) think lack of performance will annoy me at all :)
2014-05-03T00:20:14Z vanila quit (Quit: Leaving)
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2014-05-03T00:23:16Z jim: what's bdw-gc, building guile seems to need that, and any suggestions for which package it is in debian?
2014-05-03T00:24:51Z vraid: jim: "The Boehm-Demers-Weiser conservative C/C++ Garbage Collector (libgc, bdwgc, boehmgc) "
2014-05-03T00:24:54Z Shadox quit (Quit: Leaving)
2014-05-03T00:28:08Z jim: thank you :)
2014-05-03T00:29:45Z daviid: jim: libgc1c2:amd64
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2014-05-03T00:33:38Z daviid: debian should tell you that actually ...
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2014-05-03T01:17:55Z jim: I completely agree, debian absolutely should tell me and anyone that
2014-05-03T01:25:24Z jim: I need to write to stdout... that hello gu8ile world is probably somewhere prominent
2014-05-03T01:26:35Z jim: (display ...)
2014-05-03T01:36:08Z jim: if I build guile2 and readline is "around", should guile start with readline?
2014-05-03T01:40:15Z rszeno: what's wrong with using the package manager apt, aptitude or whatever
2014-05-03T01:40:26Z rszeno: ?
2014-05-03T01:43:26Z jim: it's just a pet peeve... debian relies on there being free (and alledgedly other) software to package... debian tends to rename things, including whole packages, and this can make it difficult to find the original source)
2014-05-03T01:43:43Z alezost quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2014-05-03T01:44:02Z jim: having said that, there is apt-cache search, which has worked pretty much every time
2014-05-03T01:44:25Z rszeno: apt-get install guile-library
2014-05-03T01:44:39Z jim: what's that?
2014-05-03T01:44:48Z rszeno: you need to learn to use it, apt-file find '/guile'
2014-05-03T01:44:59Z rszeno: the interpreter
2014-05-03T01:45:32Z rszeno: are a set of tools not only apt-cache
2014-05-03T01:45:33Z jim: well let's not go assuming what I need. Other than that, I take your point
2014-05-03T01:46:02Z rszeno: then let not blame debian, :)
2014-05-03T01:47:00Z rszeno: i admit is unusual but you always can find a way to deal with it
2014-05-03T01:48:18Z jim: well, I'm not putting any conditions on "don't go assuming what I need"... I know who I blame for what and that shouldn't be a part of this discussion... not assuming things about me keeps me cool and friendly...
2014-05-03T01:48:53Z rszeno: ok, i'm fine with this, :)
2014-05-03T01:48:58Z rszeno: sorry
2014-05-03T01:50:04Z jim: no problem! and like I said, apt-cache search has come thru with build requirements for pretty much everything I've wanted to build, so I can at minimum say "it's worked so far"
2014-05-03T01:50:36Z rszeno: the interpreter is in guile-library
2014-05-03T01:50:51Z jim: you mean the scheme interp?
2014-05-03T01:51:00Z rszeno: guile intrepreter
2014-05-03T01:52:01Z jim: oh ok... well suffice it to say I'm going on a little adventure... and like most adventures, I try to confine them to my home dir so I don't go screwing up my whole day :)
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2014-05-03T01:52:25Z jim: if you're interested in the details, I'm happy to share them
2014-05-03T01:54:28Z rszeno: can you expand?
2014-05-03T01:54:47Z jim: oh, and I just realized I need to escape some special chars in a string... I'm writing guile scripts that write out lilypond input files
2014-05-03T01:55:32Z jim: since I'm a musician, and I want to use scheme to generate permutations and arrangements of various things
2014-05-03T01:59:29Z jim: as far as building guile, someone here said "why not guile2?", so I evaluated that... while lilypond has been said to depend on guile-1.8, I paused, but then decided that at least for now I don't need to access lilypond internals, and the rest can be done outside lilypond, hence my adventure, which is to build guile 2.0.11 and install it in my home dir, which I've done, in such a way I can disable it (and not disable other stuff) if something weird happens tha
2014-05-03T01:59:29Z jim: t I can trace to something in the system trying to use my homedir guile
2014-05-03T02:00:15Z jim: that should not ever happen, the root login would not ever be told to look in my home dir for guile
2014-05-03T02:00:30Z rszeno: is tricky to do such a thing on debian
2014-05-03T02:00:59Z jim: I put it in /home/jim/inst-guile2
2014-05-03T02:01:07Z jim: that part was easy
2014-05-03T02:01:57Z jim: in my .bashrc I wrote a coupla handy things, addbin and addlib, which adds to the front of PATH and LD_LIBRARY_PATH respectively
2014-05-03T02:02:52Z jim: I'm finding now, I need to escape a " in a string... is it \ to do that?
2014-05-03T02:02:55Z rszeno: i suggest to get the debian sources and look inside, mainly the files from debian folder
2014-05-03T02:03:42Z rszeno: rules, control, etc
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2014-05-03T02:04:19Z jim: you're wanting me to see how it's packaged
2014-05-03T02:04:26Z jim: thanks for that want
2014-05-03T02:05:05Z rszeno: no, i don't intend to change what is default installed
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2014-05-03T02:07:09Z jim: I'm on the task of getting guile to write out a lilypond input file, which I'll feed to lilypond to get a pdf of a score
2014-05-03T02:08:11Z rszeno: i'm art consumer but that's all, :)
2014-05-03T02:08:59Z jim: where from?
2014-05-03T02:09:10Z rszeno: romania
2014-05-03T02:09:38Z jim: nice... what kind of art are you a fan of?
2014-05-03T02:10:14Z rszeno: music, jazz, rock, almost any kind
2014-05-03T02:11:07Z rszeno: and the rest painting, any kind of art
2014-05-03T02:11:30Z rszeno: literature, ...., :)
2014-05-03T02:14:09Z rszeno being fan implies more then i do, so i'm not a fan
2014-05-03T02:14:40Z jim: ok :) I get that
2014-05-03T02:16:01Z rszeno: you are confortable with guile?
2014-05-03T02:17:33Z jim: not particularly
2014-05-03T02:18:34Z jim: I did the typical SICP stuff, and that gets you warmed up, but then if I want to really know the language, I need to put in time
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2014-05-03T02:18:49Z rszeno: you can install the info documentation, is well done, will help you
2014-05-03T02:19:42Z jim: yes; so far I'[ve been getting all that from the web pages, and yes, they have/are/will help me
2014-05-03T02:23:22Z jim: for a little while, I'll need some pushes from talking to people... I will not depend on that for long
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2014-05-03T02:23:46Z rszeno: one guile came in many pieces this is why is better to use the package manager if you don't have serios reasons to install by hand
2014-05-03T02:24:07Z rszeno: s/one //
2014-05-03T02:24:27Z jim: someone wrote this beautiful scheme function for me a coupla days ago that's going to be very helpful
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2014-05-03T02:25:06Z davexunit: hey schemers.
2014-05-03T02:25:26Z jim: oh believe me, I'm super comfortable with the trappings, just not with scheme itself yet
2014-05-03T02:26:04Z davexunit: I'm working on a 2d game programming library, and I want to implement a scene graph to represent the hierarchy of renderable objects.
2014-05-03T02:27:07Z davexunit: in object oriented languages, the nodes of the graph have some virtual method called "render" that concrete node classes implement.  what's the cleanest way to achieve a similar sort of dispatch in scheme?
2014-05-03T02:27:34Z vraid: racket has "send" dispatches, does scheme have the same?
2014-05-03T02:27:50Z vraid: "(send object object-method)"
2014-05-03T02:27:51Z davexunit: I should also say that I'm using Guile.
2014-05-03T02:28:05Z davexunit: I could use GOOPS, I guess.
2014-05-03T02:28:43Z davexunit: but I don't really need or want a full OOP system.
2014-05-03T02:29:18Z jim: me, I'm ok with performance issues as I'm not doing a rt thing... what about you? does this graph structure get generated while the game is running?
2014-05-03T02:29:39Z davexunit: it could change while the game is running, yes.
2014-05-03T02:30:16Z jim: it sounds like you don't expect it to be a problem
2014-05-03T02:30:23Z davexunit: my library uses functional reactive programming, so I'd like the scene graph to react to changes in game state and update the scene graph accordingly, but that's a different story.
2014-05-03T02:31:15Z jim: so you don't regenerate periodically, but you do change?
2014-05-03T02:31:37Z davexunit: yes, in response to some event.
2014-05-03T02:31:51Z davexunit: but I'm not particularly concerned with that bit at the moment.
2014-05-03T02:32:24Z davexunit: I'm more interested in how to make a generic scene graph in a functional style instead of an OOP style.
2014-05-03T02:34:30Z jim: there are a couple of things going on in your description that make it seem like functional either isn't what's going on or isn't the way to go... if your graph is going to change, that involves side effects
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2014-05-03T02:36:06Z davexunit: jim: it certainly does involve side-effects, which is why I'd rather not consider that stuff now.  I abstract away side-effects via functional reactive programming.
2014-05-03T02:36:06Z jim: I dunno, it almost seems like that's picking nits, and what I really want to convey is whichever way you decide to do this, make it as clean as possible
2014-05-03T02:36:19Z davexunit: absolutely.
2014-05-03T02:38:30Z jim: it seems like if you try to do more than one "style" of programming things might get confusing... if you can handle that, if you document the dogcrap out of everything, go for it
2014-05-03T02:40:03Z davexunit: I certainly don't want confusion, which is why I'm doing some research before going too far. :)
2014-05-03T02:40:06Z davexunit: thanks for the chat.
2014-05-03T02:43:15Z jim: welcome.
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2014-05-03T02:44:48Z rszeno: what reneder do you use? your own?
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2014-05-03T02:45:09Z rszeno: s/reneder/renderer/
2014-05-03T02:45:24Z jim: guile is saying something about defines not allowed in a context where expressions are...
2014-05-03T02:45:33Z davexunit: rszeno: opengl
2014-05-03T02:45:59Z jim: do I just need to put defines (and loads) first?
2014-05-03T02:47:41Z rszeno: there is a binding of opengl for guile?
2014-05-03T02:47:45Z davexunit: jim: is this a top-level expression?
2014-05-03T02:48:01Z davexunit: rszeno: yup! https://gnu.org/software/guile-opengl/
2014-05-03T02:48:23Z rszeno: thank you, :)
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2014-05-03T02:52:21Z jim: davexunit, yes, the defines, a load, and following all that, some displays are all at top level
2014-05-03T02:52:50Z jim: is there a different way I can set some variables? would I have to use let at top level?
2014-05-03T02:53:02Z davexunit: jim: what version of guile are you using?
2014-05-03T02:53:14Z jim: 2 0 11
2014-05-03T02:53:18Z davexunit: could you show me your code via http://paste.lisp.org
2014-05-03T02:53:20Z davexunit: great
2014-05-03T02:53:43Z jim: yeah, built it in my home dir a bit ago
2014-05-03T02:53:55Z jim: yeah, sec.
2014-05-03T02:55:11Z jim: here's a file I load: http://pastie.org/9135443
2014-05-03T02:56:31Z jim: here's the file I call with guile: http://pastie.org/9135448
2014-05-03T02:56:36Z davexunit: which line does guile throw the error on?
2014-05-03T02:57:26Z davexunit: hmm, not sure why that doesn't work because I don't use load.
2014-05-03T02:58:12Z jim: Syntax error:
2014-05-03T02:58:12Z jim: /home/jim/lilypond/syncopation-3-attacks-in-4-16ths.scm:8:0: source expression failed to match any pattern in form (define result (permutations (list A B C D)) (display "\\version \"2.14.2\"\n\n" (display "\n") (display "  \\clef bass\n\n")) display result)
2014-05-03T02:58:21Z jim: it's not the first one tho
2014-05-03T02:59:19Z davexunit: can you make a module instead and load permutations via use-modules ?
2014-05-03T02:59:38Z jim: well yes and I don't nkow how
2014-05-03T03:00:02Z rszeno: inner display? line 12, 13 closed 8 on 15, what is 16?
2014-05-03T03:00:24Z davexunit: yeah your syntax is all screwed up there
2014-05-03T03:00:25Z rszeno: sorry, not 12, 13, only 10
2014-05-03T03:01:06Z jim: a rong facing paren at start of line on line 16
2014-05-03T03:02:28Z jim: and missing close paren on line 10
2014-05-03T03:05:12Z rszeno: davexunit, async-queue? imo how opengl work decide how you implement the scene
2014-05-03T03:05:13Z jim: once we (thanks) fixed all the little paren errors, it works!
2014-05-03T03:06:12Z davexunit: rszeno: my scene graph will work independently of opengl
2014-05-03T03:06:48Z davexunit: my current solution will be to use a single data type to represent the scene graph, called <scene-node>, that has position, scale, rotation, etc.
2014-05-03T03:07:13Z davexunit: and additionally, a proc that actually does the rendering.
2014-05-03T03:07:20Z davexunit: that proc can be whatever
2014-05-03T03:09:00Z rszeno: imo they key is to decide the protocol you use to connect the scene with opengl
2014-05-03T03:09:14Z rszeno: proc is too generic
2014-05-03T03:09:36Z rszeno: can be and return many things
2014-05-03T03:10:32Z davexunit: that's the point.  it's a generic closure over the drawing operation that is performed.
2014-05-03T03:11:03Z davexunit: the scene nodes don't know that it's a sprite or a text label being drawn, they call just call the proc and move on.
2014-05-03T03:13:31Z rszeno: i understand but you need to consistence overall, and this means somebody need to control what is happend and when ( at least ordering if not timing )
2014-05-03T03:13:56Z davexunit: it's up to the user to construct the tree correctly
2014-05-03T03:13:57Z rszeno: could be the root node
2014-05-03T03:14:08Z rszeno: for example
2014-05-03T03:20:09Z rszeno: imo if a scene node can be a scene and if you have a mechanism to link nodes and traverse the scene you are done
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2014-05-03T03:39:18Z rszeno: davexunit, from where did you get the code for guile binding opengl?
2014-05-03T03:40:10Z davexunit: damn, the FTP is still down for guile-opengl.  lame.
2014-05-03T03:40:19Z davexunit: I got it from some URL that I don't have anymore.
2014-05-03T03:41:08Z rszeno: i'm using ftp but i can't find it
2014-05-03T03:41:49Z jim: there, good, I did one of the permutations
2014-05-03T03:42:43Z davexunit: rszeno: you won't find it there :(
2014-05-03T03:43:01Z davexunit: the maintainer has been having some trouble getting the release tarball to show up on the GNU FTP server.
2014-05-03T03:43:41Z jim: is the source under git or something?
2014-05-03T03:44:11Z rszeno: i'm interest in this
2014-05-03T03:44:24Z rszeno: s/interest/interested/
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2014-05-03T03:48:39Z davexunit: http://git.savannah.gnu.org/cgit/guile-opengl.git
2014-05-03T03:48:42Z davexunit: there ya go
2014-05-03T03:48:50Z davexunit: going to bed now.  bye everyone.
2014-05-03T03:49:21Z rszeno: thank you
2014-05-03T03:49:23Z jim: nite and thanks
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2014-05-03T04:32:35Z jim: pingardoo, schemers!! somebody split! lotsa sombodys!
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2014-05-03T04:36:24Z jusss: (display (+ 1 1））  why not 2?
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2014-05-03T04:39:17Z rszeno: because 2 is not born yet
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2014-05-03T04:40:25Z jusss: how to fix it?
2014-05-03T04:40:37Z rszeno: normaly it should display 2, because is evaluated :)
2014-05-03T04:40:38Z jim: fix a 2?
2014-05-03T04:41:13Z jusss: let it display 2
2014-05-03T04:41:45Z jim: 2 works fine for me :)
2014-05-03T04:42:04Z jim: just for fun, try this...
2014-05-03T04:42:09Z rszeno: you have a "'" before or something
2014-05-03T04:42:22Z jusss: i see
2014-05-03T04:42:25Z jusss: thx
2014-05-03T04:42:26Z jim: (display 2) (display "\n")
2014-05-03T04:44:30Z rszeno: juss, normal (display '(+ 1 1)) will display what is after ' without evaluation but (display (+ 1 1)) will display 2
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2014-05-03T04:45:59Z jim: I tried (display '2)
2014-05-03T04:46:07Z jim: that worked
2014-05-03T04:46:21Z rszeno: both work but are different
2014-05-03T04:47:04Z rszeno: i mean, (display 2) and (display '2)
2014-05-03T04:47:26Z jim: right, one displays the atom which is 2
2014-05-03T04:47:43Z jim: or what do they call it in guile, a symbol
2014-05-03T04:47:52Z rszeno: yes
2014-05-03T04:47:55Z jusss: rszeno: (display 2) , echo "unspecified return value"
2014-05-03T04:48:25Z rszeno: guile doesn't complain about this
2014-05-03T04:48:34Z rszeno: what scheme you use?
2014-05-03T04:48:38Z jim: so something is expecting a value?
2014-05-03T04:48:52Z rszeno: or in what context?
2014-05-03T04:48:52Z jusss: gnu mit-scheme
2014-05-03T04:50:20Z rszeno: display is the problem not what you want to display
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2014-05-03T04:53:39Z jusss: where i can find a function tables that instruction all function usage ?
2014-05-03T04:54:19Z rszeno: mit scheme have a info manual
2014-05-03T04:54:45Z jim: the info page will have a function index and a concept index
2014-05-03T04:54:46Z rszeno: or on the web
2014-05-03T04:54:51Z jim: look hear the bottom
2014-05-03T04:54:55Z jim: near
2014-05-03T04:55:11Z jusss: thx
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2014-05-03T05:20:46Z rszeno: jusss, my mistake, is nothing wrong with display, in repl the message show you the return value
2014-05-03T05:21:31Z rszeno: try: (define (show-me-2)(display 2) #t)
2014-05-03T05:22:51Z rszeno: then: (show-me-2)
2014-05-03T05:29:20Z jusss: rszeno: why display needs to add #t?
2014-05-03T05:30:00Z rszeno: doesn't need, is an example only to see how it work
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2014-05-03T05:31:53Z rszeno: maybe somebody who know beter mit scheme can explain why is doing this, i guess is informative since you use repl
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2014-05-03T05:35:16Z pyro-: jusss: (display 2) prints 2, and then mit-scheme prints the return value of (display 2). (display 2) doesnt evaluate to anything in particular, so it tells you that
2014-05-03T05:35:57Z pyro-: jusss: if you are writing a script rather than using the REPL, there is a command line switch --batch-mode which stops it from printing return values of every expression
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2014-05-03T06:32:48Z sigjuice: The racket procedure "random" returns a random number between 0 and 1.0.  What is the proper way to obtain a random number between say -1.0 and 1.0 ?  (- 1 (* 2 (random))) ?
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2014-05-03T06:39:04Z nisstyre: sigjuice: it's ugly but you could do (car (shuffle (list (- (random)) (random))))
2014-05-03T06:39:47Z nisstyre: that preserves uniformity
2014-05-03T06:40:01Z nisstyre: I'm probably missing some simple expression
2014-05-03T06:40:53Z ynasser: sigjuice: not so elegant, but generate two random numbers, and use one's parity to determine whether the other should be odd or even
2014-05-03T06:41:51Z ynasser: er, I mean positive or negative (not odd or even)
2014-05-03T06:42:03Z nisstyre: ynasser: my solution seems to work fine but it's a bit overkill
2014-05-03T06:43:32Z ynasser: nisstyre: yeah, i just suggested the first thing that came to my mind after reading yours
2014-05-03T06:45:38Z sigjuice: thanks for the suggestions!
2014-05-03T06:47:01Z nisstyre: sigjuice: note I'm not sure if your Scheme has shuffle
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2014-05-03T06:47:06Z nisstyre: it's defined in Racket by default
2014-05-03T06:47:15Z nisstyre: there's probably a Guile variant if you like Guile
2014-05-03T06:47:43Z sigjuice: I am using Racket.  Looks like it has shuffle.
2014-05-03T06:47:47Z nisstyre: yeah
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2014-05-03T12:12:01Z hyg: hi. which scheme interpreter/compiler do you guys recommend?
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2014-05-03T12:18:35Z mario-goulart: hyg: Hi.  That's a tough question (and a bit dangerous in this channel!).  What do you intend to use scheme for?
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2014-05-03T12:22:21Z hyg: mario-goulart: hi. forget to mention that i'm on linux. well, mainly for solving mathematical problems
2014-05-03T12:24:20Z mario-goulart: hyg: cool. Well, I think any of the most prominent implementations will be ok.
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2014-05-03T12:26:59Z alezost: hyg: you may look at http://wingolog.org/archives/2013/01/07/an-opinionated-guide-to-scheme-implementations
2014-05-03T12:27:00Z rudybot_: http://tinyurl.com/b3fjhzx
2014-05-03T12:27:19Z mario-goulart: hyg: I mean, chicken, gambit, guile, scheme implementations in racket etc.
2014-05-03T12:36:40Z hyg: alezost: what a story! i feel like the bad guy :D
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2014-05-03T12:37:50Z hyg: mario-goulart: in fact, i was hesitating between chicken and guile (knowing it from emacs world but never used it) then figured out there was many others
2014-05-03T12:40:16Z mario-goulart: Yeah, there are many others.  chicken and guile are excellent options, IMO.  And they both have good supporting community.
2014-05-03T12:41:03Z mario-goulart: BTW, in case you live around norway, there's a chicken meeting happening right now (http://wiki.call-cc.org/event/chicken-spring-norway-2014)
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2014-05-03T12:56:36Z hyg: mario-goulart: sadly no. i downloaded the presentation :)
2014-05-03T12:57:01Z hyg: mario-goulart: will try guile
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2014-05-03T13:00:17Z mario-goulart: Cool.  I think you'll be pretty good with guile.
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2014-05-03T13:20:44Z DrDuck: Does anyone else find the mit-scheme debugger tricky to learn how to use?
2014-05-03T13:25:01Z rszeno all are tricky to learn in my opinion, for any language
2014-05-03T13:26:30Z jusss_: help!  http://paste.ubuntu.com/7386557/
2014-05-03T13:27:34Z vraid: jusss_: why is there a 'fib' argument to 'f' when you redefine fib first thing inside f?
2014-05-03T13:30:05Z jusss_: vraid: because fib wasn't inside f
2014-05-03T13:31:27Z jusss_: vraid: so i think if fib can be inside f , no fix
2014-05-03T13:32:22Z vraid: aye, the argument wasn't used
2014-05-03T13:32:27Z vraid: so what is it that doesn't work?
2014-05-03T13:34:41Z jusss_: vraid: (f 3 fib)     unbound variable: fib
2014-05-03T13:35:19Z vraid: jusss_: of course.. fib doesn't exist outside of the function
2014-05-03T13:35:45Z vraid: if you do (f n fib) you get unbound variable: n
2014-05-03T13:36:14Z vraid: but if you put 3 in its place, 3 will get bound to 'n' once inside the function
2014-05-03T13:37:49Z jusss_: vraid: so fib should be outside of f, when use (f 3 fib) syntax?
2014-05-03T13:38:17Z vraid: yes
2014-05-03T13:38:36Z jusss_: i see, thx
2014-05-03T13:38:43Z vraid: but if it's inside, you can use a simpler (f n) syntax
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2014-05-03T21:48:13Z jim: there, the first half of my monster func is done...
2014-05-03T21:49:17Z zacts: lo
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2014-05-03T21:49:28Z jim: nid
2014-05-03T21:49:33Z jim: mid too
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2014-05-03T23:45:28Z offby1: hi
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2014-05-04T12:07:22Z jusss: is there a example to show how to write a code about socket ?
2014-05-04T12:07:30Z jusss: s/a/an
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2014-05-04T12:14:00Z scoofy: http://wiki.tcl.tk/_/search?S=socket
2014-05-04T12:14:30Z vanila: scoofy
2014-05-04T12:14:49Z scoofy: ah. sorry wrong channel O_o
2014-05-04T12:15:03Z vanila: jusss, which scheme?
2014-05-04T12:16:17Z jusss: vanila: mit/gun scheme
2014-05-04T12:17:26Z jusss: gnu
2014-05-04T12:18:25Z vanila: I don't use MIT but what abut this http://www.cs.hofstra.edu/~cscccl/csc123/webserver.scm
2014-05-04T12:18:41Z vanila: thats for a server though
2014-05-04T12:19:28Z jusss: thx
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2014-05-04T12:23:11Z rszeno: jusss, google for "soket in mit scheme"
2014-05-04T12:23:49Z rszeno: but fix my typos first, :)
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2014-05-04T12:26:34Z jusss: i see, :)
2014-05-04T12:28:29Z rszeno: probably is better to add "example", what give me include only documentation
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2014-05-04T14:44:19Z jim: hi, is the person who wrote this a few days ago here? http://pastie.org/9139572
2014-05-04T14:44:51Z jim: If I distribute it I'd like to give you credit
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2014-05-04T14:54:29Z rszeno: pjb, ^^
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2014-05-04T15:09:52Z jim is out and about... if the author could send a memo via the bot memoserv that would be cool... otherwise I'll ask again another time
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2014-05-04T15:25:23Z offby1: *gasp*
2014-05-04T15:25:27Z offby1 calls the /me police on jim
2014-05-04T15:25:33Z offby1: pronoun agreement, son; pronoun agreement
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2014-05-04T15:33:34Z jim: the me police, they talk to me in my me
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2014-05-04T15:44:30Z pjb: jim: oh, you're back.
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2014-05-04T15:47:58Z jim: was gonna go get food, and was that you?
2014-05-04T15:48:53Z jim: cool.
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2014-05-04T15:54:38Z jim: I wrote this thing, which is half of a thing that turns rests following attacks and leading rests into groupings http://pastie.org/9139760
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2014-05-04T15:55:59Z jim: eventually will write the second half which consolidates rests and tied notes according to the rules of the time signature
2014-05-04T15:58:58Z jim: the main define should probably be called rests-to-groupings
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2014-05-04T16:00:17Z jim: turns the left thing (happens to be one bar from arrangements) into the right thing
2014-05-04T16:00:24Z jim: (r8 r8 d8 r8 d8 d8 r8 r8) ((r8 r8) (d8 d8) d8 (d8 d8 d8))
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2014-05-04T16:14:40Z pjb: jim: you should use emacs and paredit to edit scheme sources.  Closing parentheses must lie on the same line: ))))
2014-05-04T16:16:54Z nisstyre: pjb: I use vim, can I still write Scheme or do I have to hand in my badge and parens?
2014-05-04T16:17:35Z pjb: The later.
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2014-05-04T16:45:52Z jim: pjb, I'm a match-position holdout :) it makes it easier to see stuff and find the end of stuff
2014-05-04T16:46:10Z jim: what I meant was...
2014-05-04T16:46:13Z jim: easier for me :)
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2014-05-04T17:37:11Z xyh: who had registered a LtU user account ? why I can not register new user
2014-05-04T17:37:11Z xyh:       account ?
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2014-05-04T18:10:02Z DrDuck: "for -each is similar to map"
2014-05-04T18:10:04Z DrDuck: nice
2014-05-04T18:10:05Z DrDuck: :D
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2014-05-04T18:23:58Z jim: DrDuck, probably someone wrote synatatic sugar for one to get the appearance of the other
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2014-05-05T03:19:07Z DrDuck: Hi guys. I'm trying to do exercise 2.23 of SICP (http://mitpress.mit.edu/sicp/full-text/book/book-Z-H-15.html#%_thm_2.23). I can't seem to understand why my implementation wont work. Any suggestions? https://www.refheap.com/85117
2014-05-05T03:24:31Z nisstyre: DrDuck: http://codepad.org/LCsqWOW8
2014-05-05T03:24:35Z nisstyre: that is how I'd do it
2014-05-05T03:24:41Z nisstyre: you have an implicit begin there
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2014-05-05T03:25:01Z nisstyre: well, you probably do, I don't know if  you do
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2014-05-05T03:25:54Z nisstyre: remember begin sequences side-effects
2014-05-05T03:26:08Z nisstyre: for things like parameters, it's undefined as to what order they will be evaluated in
2014-05-05T03:32:39Z nisstyre: DrDuck: here is your code fixed http://codepad.org/z6QvBhmi
2014-05-05T03:32:47Z nisstyre: DrDuck: the problem is you were always evaluating the recursive case
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2014-05-05T04:00:18Z DrDuck: nisstyre: The begin construct hasn't been introduced anywhere in the book up until now. :[
2014-05-05T04:00:29Z DrDuck: nisstyre: Thank you, though.
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2014-05-05T04:01:43Z DrDuck: I guess I could have replaced begin with else, also.
2014-05-05T04:02:02Z nisstyre: DrDuck: (define (f) (proc1) (proc2)) is implicitly using begin
2014-05-05T04:02:25Z nisstyre: DrDuck: when you evaluate an if, it evaluates to whatever branch is the true one
2014-05-05T04:02:37Z nisstyre: so it was evaluating the if, then evaluating the recursive call
2014-05-05T04:02:42Z nisstyre: using an implicit begin
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2014-05-05T04:03:00Z nisstyre: make sense?
2014-05-05T04:03:40Z nisstyre: it's not like Python or C where you can return to the caller before evaluating the rest of the procedure (well not without some more advanced concepts)
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2014-05-05T04:07:39Z DrDuck: It's not 100% clear. If I were to disregard using the begin construct, because it's not introduced yet, I guess I could have used a cond to replace my if, since if doesn't allow you to use an else in mit-scheme.
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2014-05-05T04:07:59Z nisstyre: DrDuck: yes you could have
2014-05-05T04:08:04Z nisstyre: it would still be using begin behind the scenes
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2014-05-05T04:08:59Z nisstyre: DrDuck: this is sort of one of the problems with SICP
2014-05-05T04:09:02Z nisstyre: it's not totally clear
2014-05-05T04:09:16Z nisstyre: probably because they don't want to introduce too much
2014-05-05T04:09:23Z nisstyre: but they could have avoided side-effects altogether
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2014-05-05T04:12:45Z DrDuck: :O
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2014-05-05T04:13:44Z nisstyre: DrDuck: The Little Schemer and The Seasoned Schemer are what I'd recommend instead to people with programming experience looking to learn Scheme
2014-05-05T04:14:15Z nisstyre: unfortunately they aren't Creative Commons licensed
2014-05-05T04:16:10Z DrDuck: nisstyre: I don't know if I'm looking to learn Scheme in great detail or not yet. I'm just looking to expand my foundation on what sicp offers for now. I think after I've worked through the book, I'll know if I want to continue with Scheme. :D
2014-05-05T04:16:24Z nisstyre: DrDuck: okay fair enough
2014-05-05T04:16:35Z nisstyre: DrDuck: I recommend looking at Racket if you want to write useful programs
2014-05-05T04:20:18Z DrDuck: nisstyre: noted!
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2014-05-05T04:21:31Z nisstyre: DrDuck: for example Naughty Dog (the Uncharted games, The Last of Us, etc..) used Racket for a lot of their development
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2014-05-05T04:21:40Z nisstyre: previously they were using common lisp
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2014-05-05T04:26:03Z fixme: is there any r7rs implementation?
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2014-05-05T05:24:57Z jusss: f(M1,M2,M3,...Mn)= Mn...M3,M2,M1,  how to write it?
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2014-05-05T05:45:22Z pjb: jusss: divide and conquer!
2014-05-05T05:45:56Z pjb: If you had Mn-1…M1, how would you build Mn...M3,M2,M1?
2014-05-05T05:47:50Z pyro-: it's not clear what output you want
2014-05-05T05:48:07Z pyro-: a list of all the arguments reverses?
2014-05-05T05:49:59Z pyro-: you can do that with  (define (f . args) (reverse args))
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2014-05-05T05:58:39Z jusss: i see, thx
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2014-05-05T07:25:58Z zacts: hi
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2014-05-05T11:19:26Z jusss: is there a way to make a function to return many values, not a return value
2014-05-05T11:22:44Z vanila: what !
2014-05-05T11:26:22Z rszeno: jusss, look for 'values'
2014-05-05T11:27:38Z jusss: print fibonacci sequence, from 0 to n
2014-05-05T11:28:11Z rszeno: you don't need multiple values for this
2014-05-05T11:32:40Z jusss: i donn't know how to write that, print fibonacci sequence ,from 0 to n ,
2014-05-05T11:33:19Z z0d: jusss: you need to return a list
2014-05-05T11:33:25Z rszeno: you know how to print a single term in the sequence?
2014-05-05T11:33:26Z z0d: (which is one value)
2014-05-05T11:34:05Z rszeno: assuming n is not huge, :)
2014-05-05T11:36:27Z jusss: how to return a list?
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2014-05-05T11:36:59Z jusss: rszeno: i know how to print a single term
2014-05-05T11:37:40Z rszeno: then you only need to iterate/map from 0 to n and print current value
2014-05-05T11:37:57Z rszeno: compute and print, obvious
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2014-05-05T11:39:15Z rszeno: the other way, compute all and when you are done print work well for small values of n
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2014-05-05T11:48:14Z jusss: http://paste.ubuntu.com/7398239/
2014-05-05T11:48:25Z jusss: return () ...
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2014-05-05T12:04:15Z rszeno: what value have return-list in nfib when you call nfib?
2014-05-05T12:04:22Z rszeno: on line 10
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2014-05-05T12:15:27Z jusss: i'm wrong
2014-05-05T12:16:02Z jusss: so how to fix it ? return a list
2014-05-05T12:20:32Z rszeno: is not important to be right or wrong but to find your way to solve such kind of problems
2014-05-05T12:21:26Z rszeno: trying to find how to explan it i found this http://cubbi.com/fibonacci/scheme.html
2014-05-05T12:24:25Z rszeno: is a little exagerated in my opinion, :)
2014-05-05T12:24:39Z rszeno: this maybe http://www.cs.grinnell.edu/~walker/courses/151.fa05/readings/tail-recursion.xhtml
2014-05-05T12:24:40Z rudybot: http://tinyurl.com/pwnq2mx
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2014-05-05T17:00:49Z ANGRYSTEVE: alright, so I got feedback on my scheme code
2014-05-05T17:01:16Z ANGRYSTEVE: instead of: `(fib(1- n))' write `(fib (1- n))'
2014-05-05T17:01:31Z ANGRYSTEVE: is that just a style error?
2014-05-05T17:02:13Z vraid: infix - ?
2014-05-05T17:02:25Z vanila: I'd actually write (fib (- n 1))
2014-05-05T17:02:27Z vanila: but it's up to you
2014-05-05T17:02:46Z ANGRYSTEVE: oh no
2014-05-05T17:02:47Z ANGRYSTEVE: the space
2014-05-05T17:02:53Z ANGRYSTEVE: between fib and the ()
2014-05-05T17:03:44Z niklasl: ANGRYSTEVE if you have something else than paratheses first you need a space, so the consistent thing is to always leave space
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2014-05-05T17:04:20Z ANGRYSTEVE: I can see why you want (- n 1) because the next one went like this (fib(1- (1- n)))
2014-05-05T17:05:07Z ANGRYSTEVE: niklasl, alright I usually do that but my TA was like NONONONONO
2014-05-05T17:05:10Z ANGRYSTEVE: it was just a mistake
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2014-05-05T19:26:02Z Gyps: Does anyone know where a good scheme library on vectors might be?
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2014-05-05T19:26:26Z Gyps: Im having trouble recursing through vectors
2014-05-05T19:26:34Z pjb: Gyps: isn't there a srfi for that?
2014-05-05T19:26:59Z Gyps: whats the command to access that
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2014-05-05T19:27:21Z Gyps: Im not sure
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2014-05-05T19:28:00Z tsuyoshi: do you need a vector folding procedure or what
2014-05-05T19:28:41Z jim: well if you don't have the package yet, your first step would be to get it, followed maybe by building it against your scheme libs and headers (?)
2014-05-05T19:29:11Z Gyps: Im just trying to prepare for my final tomorrow which covers recursing through vectors, matrices, images, trees, and lists
2014-05-05T19:29:40Z jim: I don't know much yet about what's built in in scheme and what's not...
2014-05-05T19:30:02Z Gyps: Vectors are built in
2014-05-05T19:30:09Z jim: so, you may have been provided (by your teacher) a library he wants you to use?
2014-05-05T19:30:37Z vraid: Gyps: traversing or recursing?
2014-05-05T19:30:38Z jim: this sounds lik Linear Algebra?
2014-05-05T19:31:20Z Gyps: Well trees and images aren't built into scheme so we have a library to import for those but vectors lists and matrices are based on the built in scheme libraries
2014-05-05T19:31:31Z Gyps: and *traversing
2014-05-05T19:31:47Z pjb: Gyps: http://srfi.schemers.org/
2014-05-05T19:31:50Z Gyps: But to traverse I'm using recursive calls correct?
2014-05-05T19:32:14Z pjb: So: http://srfi.schemers.org/srfi-43/
2014-05-05T19:33:00Z pjb: It's supported by 13 implementations: https://spreadsheets.google.com/pub?key=tRCHK6jWXuKMABKAfoOwWqw
2014-05-05T19:33:04Z vraid: Gyps: you can traverse vectors by using recursion on the index, sure
2014-05-05T19:33:20Z jim: Gyps, ok, so is it that you're having problems getting something to work?
2014-05-05T19:34:42Z Gyps: yeah most of our problems are based on defining let variables (initializing the data), and then manipulating the index or data to solve the problem
2014-05-05T19:35:25Z Gyps: My problems are kind of conceptual, most follow a basic structure but Im missing what some of the parts are doing in the functiom
2014-05-05T19:35:29Z Gyps: ill post an example
2014-05-05T19:35:48Z jim: howbout the one you're having trouble with now?
2014-05-05T19:36:10Z jim: just so we can feed two birds with one worm
2014-05-05T19:37:03Z Gyps: Whats the pastebin preferred here?
2014-05-05T19:37:17Z jim: just not pastebin.com :)
2014-05-05T19:37:30Z jim: hate that one. hate hate.
2014-05-05T19:37:46Z turbofail: i usually use lisppaste
2014-05-05T19:37:51Z pjb: http://paste.lisp.org/new is lisp and scheme friendly.
2014-05-05T19:37:54Z pjb: and emacs friendly.
2014-05-05T19:39:10Z vanila: pastebin.com started to advertise some "viral" site they invented so yeah, I stop using it now
2014-05-05T19:40:52Z Gyps: I don't really have a problem Im having trouble with Im just trying to understand some of the inner workings of some of these problems.
2014-05-05T19:40:55Z Gyps: Like for example
2014-05-05T19:40:56Z Gyps: http://paste.lisp.org/display/142404
2014-05-05T19:41:19Z pjb: Bad.
2014-05-05T19:41:27Z pjb: You should separate the concerns.
2014-05-05T19:41:39Z Gyps: in this problem it returns the highest value in the vector, I just don't really understand that vector-ref let binding
2014-05-05T19:41:49Z pjb: Have one functions that implements the mapping over vector elements, and another that compute the max of two elements.
2014-05-05T19:42:20Z Gyps: What do you mean, like I should separate this problem into helpers?
2014-05-05T19:42:37Z pjb: For example (vector-fold max (vector-ref vector 0)  vector)
2014-05-05T19:42:45Z vraid: Gyps: (vector-ref vec 0) is the first element in the vector
2014-05-05T19:43:00Z pjb: vector-fold does the iterating, max does the maximum stuff, and the rest is the first element and the vector.
2014-05-05T19:43:15Z pjb: Gyps: yes, but don't call them helper.
2014-05-05T19:43:23Z Gyps: What does 'fold mean?
2014-05-05T19:43:28Z vraid: Gyps: so it's saying "let the largest element be the first.. until we find a larger one"
2014-05-05T19:43:37Z pjb: Read the SRFI#43 http://srfi.schemers.org/srfi-43/srfi-43.html
2014-05-05T19:43:43Z Gyps: Ok that makes sense
2014-05-05T19:43:48Z pjb: fold in scheme is reduce in Common Lisp.
2014-05-05T19:44:39Z Gyps: Ok ic, this link is very useful
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2014-05-05T19:47:33Z Gyps: How would vector-empty? work though, as I understand it you can't actually empty a vector like you could a list, instead its just traversing, grabbing values, or set banging
2014-05-05T19:48:32Z tsuyoshi: "empty" in this context is an adjective, not a verb
2014-05-05T19:48:53Z tsuyoshi: vector-empty? checks if the vector has a length of 0
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2014-05-05T19:49:31Z Gyps: I see, doesn't seem to practical in my use
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2014-05-05T19:51:02Z jim: when you make a vector and add an element, you're adding a dimension, yes?
2014-05-05T19:51:53Z Gyps: yeah
2014-05-05T19:53:22Z jim: and, sometimes vectors (maybe outside of scheme) have formulas for the dimensions instead of raw numbers... hence you can do things like run them over time, integrate or differentiate, etc
2014-05-05T19:55:07Z vraid: Gyps: looking back at this http://paste.lisp.org/display/142404, the second clause in the 'cond' is unnecessary
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2014-05-05T19:55:23Z vraid: the result would be the same with just the first and last clauses
2014-05-05T19:56:01Z Gyps: Where I was checking to see if the current position was > than the index?
2014-05-05T19:56:08Z Gyps: Or the loop
2014-05-05T19:56:29Z vraid: no, where you check if the vector element is larger than the current max num
2014-05-05T19:58:23Z Gyps: Is that because 'max' covers that
2014-05-05T19:58:34Z vraid: yep
2014-05-05T19:58:45Z Gyps: ic
2014-05-05T19:58:57Z Gyps: Interesting thanks
2014-05-05T19:59:27Z Gyps: heres a problem I'm having trouble with
2014-05-05T19:59:28Z Gyps: http://paste.lisp.org/display/142406
2014-05-05T19:59:44Z Gyps: Just adds all the elements in the vector
2014-05-05T20:00:23Z Gyps: One traversing from the end another from the beginning
2014-05-05T20:00:55Z vraid: rudybot: (apply + (vector->list (vector 1 2 3 4 5)))
2014-05-05T20:00:59Z rudybot: vraid: your typed/racket sandbox is ready
2014-05-05T20:01:01Z rudybot: vraid: ; Value: 15
2014-05-05T20:01:02Z rudybot: vraid: ; stdout: "- : Integer\n"
2014-05-05T20:01:04Z vraid: i'm sorry, that's cheating :)
2014-05-05T20:01:51Z Gyps: :O
2014-05-05T20:02:06Z Gyps: without converting to a list xD
2014-05-05T20:03:40Z jim: rudybot, (+ 1 2 3 4 5)
2014-05-05T20:03:41Z rudybot: jim: your sandbox is ready
2014-05-05T20:03:41Z rudybot: jim: ; Value: 15
2014-05-05T20:04:56Z Gyps: Whats the point of that?
2014-05-05T20:05:08Z vraid: Gyps: (if (= 0 (sub1 (vector-length vec)))    <- this will probably never hold true
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2014-05-05T20:05:17Z vraid: that's checking if the vector length is 1
2014-05-05T20:05:25Z vraid: but the vector length doesn't change during the iteration
2014-05-05T20:05:35Z vraid: you have to work with the index
2014-05-05T20:05:43Z jim: I wanted to see why the apply worked... it worked because + accepts more than two params
2014-05-05T20:06:18Z vraid: rudybot: (apply + '())
2014-05-05T20:06:19Z rudybot: vraid: ; Value: 0
2014-05-05T20:06:19Z rudybot: vraid: ; stdout: "- : Integer [more precisely: Zero]\n"
2014-05-05T20:06:27Z vraid: rudybot: init racket
2014-05-05T20:06:28Z rudybot: vraid: your sandbox is ready
2014-05-05T20:06:47Z Gyps: aren't I changing the index in this line?
2014-05-05T20:06:49Z Gyps: (+ (vector-ref vec i) (help2 (add1 i)))
2014-05-05T20:07:08Z vraid: Gyps: the vector length still doesn't change
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2014-05-05T20:07:46Z Gyps: err should I be referencing the vector-ref instead?
2014-05-05T20:08:04Z vraid: when you do recursion on a list, you pass a smaller and smaller part of the list to the next step
2014-05-05T20:08:10Z vraid: eventually, the list will be empty
2014-05-05T20:08:15Z Gyps: mhm
2014-05-05T20:08:28Z Gyps: I understand lists pretty well
2014-05-05T20:08:31Z vraid: but with vectors, you always have access to the whole vector
2014-05-05T20:09:25Z vraid: oh
2014-05-05T20:09:27Z vraid: (= 0 (sub1 (vector-length vec)))
2014-05-05T20:09:31Z vraid: it should say (= i ....
2014-05-05T20:09:34Z vraid: i think that's the problem
2014-05-05T20:12:33Z pjb: jim: it's an interesting question, that of the dimensions.  If you consider arrays in general (ie. like we have them in Common Lisp), then a vector is an array of 1 dimension, and adding an element still leaves it a array of 1 dimension.  A matrix is an array of 2 dimensions, a tensor an array of 3 dimensions, etc. Adding an element to a vector, a row or a column to a matrix, or a matrix to one side of a tension wouldn't change the
2014-05-05T20:12:33Z pjb: dimension of the array :-)
2014-05-05T20:12:57Z Gyps: So usually in lists id have base cases that would meet the requirements of the problem when I recurred and would output w/e. But in vectors I have to reference an index as I traverse through the vector and set cases to output what I need when it hits the end of a vector?
2014-05-05T20:13:22Z vraid: Gyps: that's right
2014-05-05T20:13:22Z pjb: Of course, if you consider the vector of the indices, then to index a vector you need a vector of 1 index. To index a matrix you need a vector of 2 indices, and to index a tensor, you need a vector of 3 indices.
2014-05-05T20:13:45Z pjb: There, adding an element to a vector (of indices) adds a dimension (to the indexed thing).
2014-05-05T20:14:00Z Gyps: I see ok I guess most of my issues have been conceptual.
2014-05-05T20:15:00Z pjb: Gyps: this is not necessarily the case.
2014-05-05T20:15:25Z pjb: The base case, and what evolves from one step to the other, is not necessarily a simple cons cell/null or index/length.
2014-05-05T20:15:51Z pjb: For example, you may have a base case of a vector full of 1s, and a step where you compute a new vector from the previous one.
2014-05-05T20:15:53Z Gyps: Well with a matrix I need a 2 loops right, one for the columns and one for the rows.
2014-05-05T20:16:10Z pjb: Sometimes.
2014-05-05T20:16:18Z Gyps: and an index to keep track of where I'm at?
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2014-05-05T20:16:32Z pjb: You could also have a walk of all the cells of the matrix using a single parameter.
2014-05-05T20:17:02Z pjb: It's hard to say anything specific when we talk such generalities…
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2014-05-05T20:18:31Z Gyps: Yeah I understand that, theres always so many ways to go about a problem. Im more or less just trying to make sure I can effectively traverse the data types so I can attempt to ask the right predicates to solve the problem
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2014-05-05T20:19:45Z pjb: Now there's one thing that you should always keep in mind: you should adapt the data structure to the need of the algorithm you have to implement.  Sometimes you may choose amongst several algorithms, requiring a different data structure, and then it's good because you have more freedom choosing the data structure.
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2014-05-05T20:20:49Z pjb: But otherwise, if the data structure doesn't provide for efficient and easy accesses to your algorithm, you should change it. In a big application, that means that you may have phases where you convert the data from one data structure to the other depending on the algorithms you have to apply during the different phases.
2014-05-05T20:21:56Z pjb: Sometimes, you can implement an adaptative data type, which monitors the kind of accesses made to it, and which changes the underlying data structure to perform better. It's a generalization of the cache technique.
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2014-05-05T20:22:57Z pjb: What that means, is that it's often a good idea to abstract away the detail of implementation of a data structure behind a functional abstraction, so that you may easily change the data structure, without changing all the program.
2014-05-05T20:22:59Z Gyps: So as an example you mean sometimes converting a vector to a list if that problem would be easier to complete in terms of a different data structure?
2014-05-05T20:23:06Z pjb: Indeed.
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2014-05-05T20:24:20Z Gyps: I understand, Im going to work on more exercises and trace define some of the aspects I'm having trouble conceptualizing. Scheme has been the first language i've ever used, so a lot of the ideas of programming are pretty new to me
2014-05-05T20:24:27Z Gyps: A bit overwhelming
2014-05-05T20:25:14Z pjb: Imagine for example, you have (mathematical) matrices and vectors, and you will use them to compute a lot of matrix products, sums and inverses.  So it seems natural to use scheme vectors to implement them, since this will be efficient.  But if your application also has a user interface where the user may edit the matrices, adding columns or rows, cutting, splicing, pasting parts of vectors or matrices, you may want to convert them to
2014-05-05T20:25:14Z pjb: graphs of cells or linked lists, so that you may more easily implement the editing operations.  And then convert them back to vectors when you have to compute the arithmetic.
2014-05-05T20:26:42Z pjb: Gyps: so there are several layers.  At the bottom, you work with the basic operators such as vector-ref vector-set!.  But you use them only when implementing higher level abstract data types.  And you build your programs by building upon layers of abstractions this way.
2014-05-05T20:27:02Z vraid: Gyps: it's sometimes even harder for someone who just knows e.g java or c, as they first have to unlearn some core assumptions they had
2014-05-05T20:27:33Z pjb: The SRFI43 is one layer of abstraction: it defines higher level functions operating on vectors, so that you almost never have to use vector-ref or vector-set! yourself (unless you want to implement a specific algorithm using bare vectors).
2014-05-05T20:28:13Z pjb: Gyps: reading sicp is a good way to familiarize oneself with with the various abstraction techniques used when programming.
2014-05-05T20:28:15Z Gyps: Yeah i've heard java and other popular languages are more object originated which I don't really understand, completely different from how scheme works
2014-05-05T20:28:17Z pjb: Structure and Interpretation of Computer Programs  http://mitpress.mit.edu/sicp/full-text/book/book-Z-H-4.html  http://swiss.csail.mit.edu/classes/6.001/abelson-sussman-lectures/
2014-05-05T20:28:33Z pjb: Gyps: not really, OO and closure are equivalent.
2014-05-05T20:29:12Z Gyps: iirc scheme was created at my university a while back
2014-05-05T20:29:17Z Gyps: indiana university *
2014-05-05T20:29:20Z pjb: When Sussman was implementing actors (which are objects) in scheme, he realized that internally it was exactly the same code as for closures: that's how he discovered that they were the same.
2014-05-05T20:29:25Z LeoNerd: Objects are for when you prefer dynamic encapsulation instead of lexical encapsulation
2014-05-05T20:29:36Z pjb: LeoNerd: good definition :-)
2014-05-05T20:29:51Z vraid: i doubt that means much to someone new to programming ;)
2014-05-05T20:30:10Z LeoNerd: It wasn't supposed to
2014-05-05T20:30:48Z pjb: It's just to say, that behind the multiplicity of concepts and new idea that may overwhelm, there are actually a few fundamental concepts, that once learned, makes it all not so hard to understand.  Again, reading sicp is a good way to learn all that.
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2014-05-05T20:32:07Z LeoNerd: Indeed. SICP was relevant 20 years ago and will be exactly as relevant still in 20 years time. The names and outline shapes of the ideas may change over time and between languages, but the ideas themselves remain
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2014-05-05T20:33:11Z Gyps: interesting ill allocate some time to focus on that. Sounds exactly what I need.
2014-05-05T20:41:14Z jim: not before yuour final tho :) allocate appropriate time and energy
2014-05-05T20:42:06Z Gyps: Yeah final first :)
2014-05-05T20:42:08Z jim: look at the SICP lecture videos which are linked in the /topic. there are 20
2014-05-05T20:42:47Z jim: half by Sussman and half by Abelson
2014-05-05T20:43:29Z Gyps: Ok so first going back to random exercises I'm trying
2014-05-05T20:43:30Z Gyps: http://paste.lisp.org/display/142407
2014-05-05T20:44:07Z Gyps: I just created this to return the index of the element if its in the vector
2014-05-05T20:44:20Z jim: aaannnnd their SICP book, is now free online
2014-05-05T20:44:25Z Gyps: But Im getting error messages saying 5 is not a vector
2014-05-05T20:44:38Z jim: before that it was a hundred bux
2014-05-05T20:44:56Z vraid: Gyps: (vector-ref x index)
2014-05-05T20:45:08Z vraid: you are trying to use x as a vector instead of vec
2014-05-05T20:45:16Z Gyps: oh wow
2014-05-05T20:45:29Z Gyps: <.< thanks
2014-05-05T20:46:33Z pjb: There are several related functions to find an element in a vector. Sometimes you want the element as a result (if you have parameters such as a key function and/or an equal function). Sometimes you want the position.  And sometimes you just want to test if the element is present with vector-member?.
2014-05-05T20:47:20Z pjb: So I would (define (vector-member? x v) (not (eqv? #f (vector-position? x v))))
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2014-05-05T20:47:32Z pjb: and vector-position? would return the index if found, and #f if not.
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2014-05-05T20:48:20Z vraid: i wouldn't use ? if it returns an integer personally
2014-05-05T20:49:57Z pjb: A bottom value is a nice thing, in a functional programming language. #f can be used as such in scheme since it distinguishes #f () and nil.  In CL, you'd just use NIL.
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2014-05-05T20:50:40Z pjb: Now of course, NIL is not really used as a bottom value, since it's not generally absorbing (only for a few functions such as CAR or CDR ;-) ).
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2014-05-05T21:01:15Z Gyps: Ive got another small problem some where http://paste.lisp.org/display/142409
2014-05-05T21:01:36Z Gyps: add1 to each element of the vector and output a new vector with those updated elemented
2014-05-05T21:01:41Z Gyps: elements (
2014-05-05T21:01:43Z Gyps: *
2014-05-05T21:02:44Z Gyps: Im getting an incorrect argument count in the loop call
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2014-05-05T21:06:13Z pjb: (vector-map add1 vec)
2014-05-05T21:07:21Z pjb: (define (vector-add1 vec) (vector-map add1 vec))
2014-05-05T21:08:53Z Gyps: Yeah I guess that'd make it easier lol
2014-05-05T21:10:18Z Gyps: Thats not creating a new vector though is it?
2014-05-05T21:10:28Z Gyps: Its just set-banging the values correct?
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2014-05-05T21:17:59Z vraid: Gyps: you can treat maps as creating new vectors/lists
2014-05-05T21:19:18Z vraid: rudybot: (define inc1 (lambda (n) (+ 1 n)))
2014-05-05T21:19:19Z rudybot: vraid: Done.
2014-05-05T21:19:25Z vraid: rudybot: (define a (vector 1 2 3))
2014-05-05T21:19:26Z rudybot: vraid: Done.
2014-05-05T21:19:37Z vraid: rudybot: (define b (vector-map inc1 a))
2014-05-05T21:19:38Z rudybot: vraid: Done.
2014-05-05T21:19:42Z vraid: rudybot: a
2014-05-05T21:19:42Z rudybot: vraid: ; Value: '#(1 2 3)
2014-05-05T21:19:45Z vraid: rudybot: b
2014-05-05T21:19:46Z rudybot: vraid: ; Value: '#(2 3 4)
2014-05-05T21:19:57Z Gyps: ahh ic
2014-05-05T21:20:01Z Gyps: Thats helpful
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2014-05-05T21:38:22Z Gyps: So Ive moved onto matrices and Im making an algorithm that add1s to each value in the matrix
2014-05-05T21:38:24Z Gyps: http://paste.lisp.org/display/142410
2014-05-05T21:38:39Z Gyps: When I try and test it I'm getting this error
2014-05-05T21:38:40Z Gyps: ~ (draw-matrix (matrix-add1 m1))
2014-05-05T21:38:40Z Gyps: Exception: #<void> is not of type #<record type matrix>
2014-05-05T21:39:36Z vraid: Gyps: try (draw-matrix (begin (matrix-add1 m1) m1))
2014-05-05T21:39:56Z vraid: your function doesn't return the matrix, it just modifies it and returns nothing
2014-05-05T21:40:20Z Gyps: hmm how would I make it return the modified matrix
2014-05-05T21:40:41Z vraid: you have this if statement (if (< c cols)
2014-05-05T21:41:07Z vraid: which, if (< c cols) is true, keeps going with the loop
2014-05-05T21:41:38Z vraid: after that, you can simply add 'mat' to return it
2014-05-05T21:42:13Z vraid: (if (< c cols) (begin (let loopr ....)) mat)
2014-05-05T21:44:16Z vraid: rudybot: (if #f "hello")
2014-05-05T21:44:16Z rudybot: vraid: error: #<undefined>:1:0: if: missing an "else" expression <NEWLINE>   in: (if #f "hello")
2014-05-05T21:44:24Z vraid: rudybot: (if #f "hello" "world")
2014-05-05T21:44:24Z rudybot: vraid: ; Value: "world"
2014-05-05T21:45:46Z Gyps: I still dont know where to put the mat, after the let binding and before the (if (< r rows) call?
2014-05-05T21:46:10Z vraid: after the closing parenthesis of (begin
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2014-05-05T21:47:54Z vraid: http://pasterack.org/pastes/2941
2014-05-05T21:49:00Z Gyps: I don't understand why it wouldn't output it by itself
2014-05-05T21:49:30Z vraid: functions don't do that
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2014-05-05T21:51:05Z vraid: they evaluate to their last statement in call order
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2014-05-05T21:51:47Z Gyps: ok that makes a little more sense
2014-05-05T21:52:58Z vraid: in this case, you have loopc, which does, simplified (if (< c cols) a b)
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2014-05-05T21:53:44Z vraid: if c is less than cols, it goes to 'a', which is the loopr that calls loopc again
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2014-05-05T21:54:04Z vraid: so each time (< c cols) is true, we come back to the same if statement
2014-05-05T21:54:53Z Gyps: So it'd go into a big loop?
2014-05-05T21:55:16Z vraid: right, the loop going back into loopc
2014-05-05T21:55:23Z vraid: once it isn't true, the function will evaluate the 'b' part of the if statement
2014-05-05T21:55:33Z vraid: and in your case, 'b' doesn't exist, so it returns void, or lack of value
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2014-05-05T21:56:16Z Gyps: This problem could be made simple using matrix-generator I assume
2014-05-05T21:56:22Z Gyps: As I understand it its similar to map
2014-05-05T21:56:48Z vraid: i'm not sure what library you are using, but a map would be much simpler
2014-05-05T21:57:22Z Gyps: (matrix-generator rows columns generator)
2014-05-05T21:57:22Z Gyps: => a matrix
2014-05-05T21:57:23Z Gyps: Create a new matrix of size rows x columns by calling the function generator at each element. generator should have the form (lambda (r c) ...).
2014-05-05T21:57:40Z vraid: that's much better, yes
2014-05-05T21:59:02Z vraid: you could even define a matrix-map using matrix-generator, and call (matrix-map mat add1)
2014-05-05T21:59:34Z Gyps: How would I define that
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2014-05-05T22:02:20Z vraid: that's a good exercise :)
2014-05-05T22:04:17Z vraid: Gyps: try using matrix-generator to create an identical matrix first
2014-05-05T22:05:52Z Gyps: Ok ill try that, I just tried to create a matrix-member? but again have some weird error somewhere
2014-05-05T22:06:19Z Gyps: http://paste.lisp.org/display/142411
2014-05-05T22:07:48Z Gyps: vraid: When you say identical what are you comparing that to?
2014-05-05T22:07:58Z vraid: Gyps: (if (= matrix-ref mat r c) x)
2014-05-05T22:08:44Z vraid: you have some parantheses in the wrong places
2014-05-05T22:08:59Z vraid: Gyps: comparing to the starting matrix
2014-05-05T22:09:41Z vraid: a function that, given any matrix, returns a matrix with the same size and values
2014-05-05T22:10:18Z Gyps: Is my (loopr (add1 row)))) taking to many parens?
2014-05-05T22:11:36Z vraid: compare these two http://pasterack.org/pastes/9287
2014-05-05T22:11:55Z Gyps: err (matrix-ref needs a paren
2014-05-05T22:12:02Z Gyps: procedure <.<
2014-05-05T22:13:57Z Gyps: fixed it
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2014-05-05T22:20:29Z vraid: Gyps: actually, to make it even simpler, first you can use matrix-generator to create a matrix of the same size, but with all values set to 0
2014-05-05T22:20:41Z vraid: as the next step, you can make it copy the values of the previous matrix
2014-05-05T22:21:13Z vraid: and as the third and final step, you can let it take a function to work as a map
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2014-05-05T23:10:52Z Gyps: vraid: Sorry something came up, just getting back. About to try and create that matrix map algorithm now
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2014-05-05T23:16:12Z Gyps: vraid: This should do it, that was easy and I'm sure this will be super useful
2014-05-05T23:16:15Z Gyps: http://paste.lisp.org/display/142412
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2014-05-05T23:42:03Z vraid: Gyps: no worries
2014-05-05T23:42:09Z vraid: you're getting the hang of it
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2014-05-05T23:55:24Z vraid: i'm off to bed, good night
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2014-05-06T00:26:06Z jim: so (a b c d e) is an alias (syntatic sugar) for (apply a (b c d e) current-env)
2014-05-06T00:30:51Z turbofail: apply doesn't take an environment argument
2014-05-06T00:31:16Z turbofail: and anyway it'd be closer to (apply a (list b c d e))
2014-05-06T00:33:37Z turbofail: unless you're talking about some hypothetical interpreter helper function named `apply'
2014-05-06T00:36:02Z jim: oh ok
2014-05-06T00:36:21Z jim: what does take the env? eval?
2014-05-06T00:36:36Z turbofail: SICP is a little weird in that it overrides the standard scheme function `apply' during the chapter on writing a scheme interpreter in scheme
2014-05-06T00:37:01Z jim: oh that's why I assumed that then
2014-05-06T00:38:27Z turbofail: actually even the apply they use there doesn't take an environment argument
2014-05-06T00:38:52Z jim: so that would leave eval
2014-05-06T00:38:56Z turbofail: yeah, eval is the one that usually takes an environment argument
2014-05-06T00:39:10Z jim: which is optional?
2014-05-06T00:39:59Z jim: ok, so then apply would take the list of already-evaluated args?
2014-05-06T00:40:02Z turbofail: not optional
2014-05-06T00:40:12Z turbofail: usually
2014-05-06T00:40:39Z turbofail: yeah, all of apply's arguments should be already evaluated
2014-05-06T00:41:14Z jim: like, any variables resolved to values, any combinations applied, etc
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2014-05-06T00:42:25Z turbofail: yeah
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2014-05-06T00:43:02Z turbofail: all of this only applies assuming you're following the usual evaluation order.  if you want you could do all sorts of whacky things instead
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2014-05-06T00:43:12Z jim: in fact the func (first arg to apply) would have also been eval-ed, yes?
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2014-05-06T00:43:18Z turbofail: yeah
2014-05-06T00:44:14Z turbofail: they get into some of the alternative ways to evaluate in the next sections
2014-05-06T00:44:41Z jim: like the evals of anatomy of lisp?
2014-05-06T00:44:54Z jim: peval, ceval, etc
2014-05-06T00:46:01Z turbofail: not familiar with that book
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2014-05-06T05:52:20Z jusss: (values 'a 'b 'c)   compiled closure...
2014-05-06T05:52:29Z jusss: why not a b c?
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2014-05-06T07:41:10Z jim: I'm trying to get started with filling notes into a score (this is for lilypond). I would have a bar of music with individual notes, rests and grouped notes (means they are tied, and so fair game for consolidating).
2014-05-06T07:41:40Z jim: "get started" right now means start thinking about how it can be done.
2014-05-06T07:43:05Z jim: I'm looking to have patterns for how the bars can be laid out, one of them is two half notes, which would fill a bar of 4 4 time.
2014-05-06T07:43:29Z ecraven: can't you just add up the notes' values to see whether it fits?
2014-05-06T07:43:37Z DerGuteMoritz: w
2014-05-06T07:44:05Z jim: let me show you what the music input looks like...
2014-05-06T07:44:22Z ecraven: jusss: is this on MIT/GNU Scheme?
2014-05-06T07:45:01Z ecraven: jusss: in case it is, that system unfortunately "fakes" multiple values by defining the relevant functions in a way that they work nicely together, but the rest of the system just sees it as functions..
2014-05-06T07:45:17Z ecraven: try ((values 1 2 3) list) for fun :)
2014-05-06T07:45:57Z jim: ecraven, yes. the two half note pattern is also called "equal division", one consequence is you would always see the downbeat of 3.
2014-05-06T07:47:23Z jim: ecraven, say a permutator func came up with a measure that looks like this:
2014-05-06T07:47:27Z jim: (r8 r8 d8 r8 d8 r8 r8 d8)
2014-05-06T07:47:50Z ecraven: "the downbeat of 3"?
2014-05-06T07:48:34Z jim: the 3rd beat in 4 4 time, which is the start of the second half of the bar
2014-05-06T07:49:07Z ecraven: I'll stop interrupting you and just wait until you explain what your actual problem is :) sorry for that
2014-05-06T07:50:12Z jim: if you can see it (as a note value, a note value tied over from earlier in the bar, or a rest), that;s called equal division
2014-05-06T07:50:28Z jim: np, thanks for listening
2014-05-06T07:50:45Z ecraven: so, what is your problem, exactly :)
2014-05-06T07:52:29Z jim: I'm trying to come up with a way to accomplish getting bars that come out of the permutor to fit into a pattern, which I would like to have a list of... (because there is equal division, and there are permissible exceptions to equal division)
2014-05-06T07:52:47Z jim: I want to start by thinking it through...
2014-05-06T07:53:14Z ecraven: you could have a list of patterns (like '((x2 x2) (x4 x4 x4 x4) ...)) that you match against, right?
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2014-05-06T07:53:59Z jim: here's what I have already: a permutor that produces N 8th notes and (8 - N) 8th rests
2014-05-06T07:54:33Z jim: one example of that, is this input suitable for lilypond:
2014-05-06T07:54:37Z jim: (r8 r8 d8 r8 d8 r8 r8 d8)
2014-05-06T07:55:39Z jim: what I want to do is convert it from a "drum exercise" into one that fills rests following attacks into larger notes
2014-05-06T07:55:49Z jim: so
2014-05-06T07:56:35Z jim: the first thing I do, is group the rests at the start of the bar, and I group rests that follow attacks
2014-05-06T07:56:54Z ecraven: so you go to (r4 d8 r8 d8 r4 d8)?
2014-05-06T07:57:09Z jim: I wrote the thing that does that part,
2014-05-06T07:57:31Z jim: ohgood :) you know lilypond :)
2014-05-06T07:57:44Z ecraven: ah, yea, should have mentioned that :)
2014-05-06T07:57:52Z ecraven: not an expert, but did quite some work with it
2014-05-06T07:58:05Z ecraven: (though almost no actual Scheme coding :-/)
2014-05-06T07:58:12Z jim: that bar above, produces this: ((r8 r8) (d8 d8) (d8 d8 d8) d8)
2014-05-06T07:59:24Z jim: notice how the first grouping is the leading rest, and the other groupings are an attack followed by rests, which are converted to grouped notes (from rests)
2014-05-06T07:59:42Z ecraven: ok
2014-05-06T08:00:27Z jim: for example as you can see the second group, d8 d8 came from d8 r8, and the third, d8 d8 d8, came from d8 r8 r8
2014-05-06T08:00:39Z jim: so I didn't consolidate them yet
2014-05-06T08:01:10Z ecraven: that'd go to d4 d4. later?
2014-05-06T08:01:34Z jim: yes
2014-05-06T08:01:53Z jim: and the leading rests would become r4
2014-05-06T08:02:19Z ecraven: do adjacent bars influence each other? or is each bar processed separately?
2014-05-06T08:03:31Z jim: each is processed separately (aka there isn't a case (right now) where there would be ties across bar lines
2014-05-06T08:04:09Z jim: here is one that would not fit the equal division pattern 0f half note half note:
2014-05-06T08:04:12Z jim: (r8 r8 d8 r8 r8 d8 r8 d8) ((r8 r8) (d8 d8 d8) (d8 d8) d8)
2014-05-06T08:04:32Z jim: the first list is the input to my grouper, the second is the grouper output
2014-05-06T08:06:20Z jim: none of the exceptions to equal division apply, so you have to do equal division, so you would get r4 d4 ~ d8 d4 d8
2014-05-06T08:07:42Z ecraven: that shouldn't be too hard, based on your previous grouping
2014-05-06T08:08:17Z jim: the main thing is I want to have other patterns, such as whole note; dotted half, quarter; quarter dotted half; and quarter half quarter
2014-05-06T08:09:06Z ecraven: where does the pattern come into play here?
2014-05-06T08:09:12Z ecraven: is the equal division the pattern?
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2014-05-06T08:09:59Z jim: the pattern would specify to the thing that looks at the grouper output, that (for example) it is to strictly adhere to equal division
2014-05-06T08:10:18Z jim: or, strictly adhere to one of the four exceptional cases
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2014-05-06T08:10:41Z ecraven: can you give an example of something different than equal division?
2014-05-06T08:10:44Z jim: so that right there is a total of five possible patterns
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2014-05-06T08:10:54Z jim: sure, whole note.
2014-05-06T08:11:38Z jim: since you cannot see the downbeat of 3 as a note, tied note or rest, a whole note is -not- equal division
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2014-05-06T08:12:42Z jim: Here's another: two eight notes beamed, followed by a dotted half.
2014-05-06T08:12:43Z ecraven: I'm not sure I understand, so your input is (r8 r8 d8 r8 r8 d8 r8 d8), you first group that into ((r8 r8) (d8 d8 d8) (d8 d8) d8) and then consolidate it, according to your pattern. if the pattern is equal division, you get (r4 d4 ~ d8 d4 d8), if the pattern is different, you'd get something else. right?
2014-05-06T08:13:17Z jim: you would get something else powwibly, yes
2014-05-06T08:13:24Z jim: ss
2014-05-06T08:14:18Z ecraven: can you give an example of an actual pattern and output?
2014-05-06T08:14:52Z jim: for example if the grouper found ((d8 d8) (d8 d8 d8 d8 d8 d8))
2014-05-06T08:15:22Z jim: equal division would look like d4 d4 ~ d2
2014-05-06T08:16:21Z jim: if it saw that it fit the exception, it should do d4 d2.
2014-05-06T08:16:47Z ecraven: how would you specify the exception?
2014-05-06T08:17:11Z jim: I have thought about how patterns might be specified...
2014-05-06T08:17:46Z jim: equal division in simple time might look like ((1 2) (1 2))
2014-05-06T08:17:53Z ecraven: is there a known and limited set of these patterns?
2014-05-06T08:18:02Z jim: yes
2014-05-06T08:18:28Z jim: and if you wanted some kind of special notation you could do that
2014-05-06T08:18:58Z jim: so the 1s are how many, and the 2s are the denominator of a note value
2014-05-06T08:19:36Z jim: if you wanted to represent 9 8 time...
2014-05-06T08:20:17Z jim: the pattern would probably be ((3 8) (3 8) (3 8))
2014-05-06T08:20:43Z jim: which is an example of a compoundable time sig
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2014-05-06T08:22:09Z jim: for 4 4 time you have equal division (one pattern), then you have the four (mandatory) exceptional case (already gave you those)
2014-05-06T08:22:43Z ecraven: can these patterns be automatically generated depending on the time, or do you have to specify them manually?
2014-05-06T08:23:17Z jim: and you have an optional exception, called syncopation over the split point
2014-05-06T08:23:37Z jim: well there are so few of them they can be hardwired constants
2014-05-06T08:24:26Z jim: I'd love to go the pattern route because it would allow very interesting stuff
2014-05-06T08:24:41Z ecraven: well, it seems to me you have this solved already :)
2014-05-06T08:24:55Z jim: this is predicated upon an ability I had assumed lilypond has, but I dunno for sure
2014-05-06T08:25:04Z ecraven: which ability is that?
2014-05-06T08:25:13Z jim: to control beaming
2014-05-06T08:26:18Z jim: if I can control the beaming, I can create bars that have any division I want (as specified by a pattern I would write)
2014-05-06T08:26:39Z jim: so, you think this is a complete spec then?
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2014-05-06T08:29:26Z ecraven: what do you mean by "control the beaming"? just inside a bar?
2014-05-06T08:30:27Z ecraven: as far as I know, you can influence everything regarding beaming, as for example here: http://fritz.rmi.de/dokumentation/lilypond/Documentation/user/lilypond/Setting-automatic-beam-behavior.html
2014-05-06T08:30:30Z rudybot: http://tinyurl.com/m8qxz3l
2014-05-06T08:31:26Z ecraven: you could for example just disable automatic beaming and do it all "manually" in code
2014-05-06T08:32:33Z jim: someone wrote something for me (thanks pjb!), and I want to write this one myself... here's the thing... what he wrote has map, append, apply, and I can't fathom how he came up with it...
2014-05-06T08:32:47Z jim: so I may need help with how to implement it.
2014-05-06T08:32:49Z ecraven: if you post the code, I can try to explain :)
2014-05-06T08:33:23Z ecraven: you'll probably find help in here :)
2014-05-06T08:33:35Z jim: I can post what he gave (which is something else)
2014-05-06T08:34:45Z jim: but here's somehting I was considering: in SICP, they described a way of doing a series, like fib or something, as a stream
2014-05-06T08:35:18Z jim: so I was thinking, what if I streamified the grouper output
2014-05-06T08:35:59Z jim: if I gave the streamer this ((r8 r8) (d8 d8 d8) (d8 d8) d8)
2014-05-06T08:36:56Z jim: it would give me each individual thing, the r8, the r8, the d8, etc etc, with a flag that would tell if the thing is part of a group or not
2014-05-06T08:37:41Z jim: then if we were following the equal division pattern,
2014-05-06T08:37:49Z ecraven: to me, that sounds more complicated than just giving it the input and getting back the output
2014-05-06T08:38:16Z jim: so you think I wouldn't have to stream?
2014-05-06T08:38:34Z ecraven: I don't think so. Do you already have any code for this problem?
2014-05-06T08:39:07Z jim: no, as I said at the beginning I wanted to start thinking about it
2014-05-06T08:39:41Z jim: and this has been a good start
2014-05-06T08:39:47Z jim: so thanks for that
2014-05-06T08:40:33Z ecraven: how would you group the following: (r8 r4 d8 r4 r8 d8) ?
2014-05-06T08:41:40Z jim: maybe ((r8 r4) (d8 d4 d8) d8)
2014-05-06T08:41:59Z jim: I can show you the grouper code if you're interested
2014-05-06T08:42:12Z ecraven: yes, that would be interesting ;)
2014-05-06T08:42:19Z ecraven: so you already have working grouping code?
2014-05-06T08:42:25Z jim: yep
2014-05-06T08:42:26Z ecraven: "just" missing the pattern part?
2014-05-06T08:42:27Z jim: works fine
2014-05-06T08:42:33Z jim: right
2014-05-06T08:42:53Z jim: "just" is not the word I would use :)
2014-05-06T08:43:06Z ecraven: that's what the quotes are for :D
2014-05-06T08:43:48Z jim: I think the words I would use would have a lot of all caps and screaming and htf do I do this
2014-05-06T08:44:03Z ecraven: probably a "simple" way to do this would be to break apart all notes to a lowest common denominator (the smallest time that is used), then group things again according to pattern
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2014-05-06T08:45:15Z jim: let me show you some stuff... (and btw don't judge my stark refusal to close parens on one line)
2014-05-06T08:45:31Z jim: at least not to harshly :)
2014-05-06T08:46:16Z ecraven: jim: that'll come with time and a decent editor :)
2014-05-06T08:46:46Z jim: it's just that I liked doing it that way :)
2014-05-06T08:46:59Z jim: http://pastie.org/9145196
2014-05-06T08:47:20Z jim: it made moving stuff around easier
2014-05-06T08:49:28Z ecraven: jim: Scheme usually uses ELSE instead of #T in COND, too :)
2014-05-06T08:49:59Z jim: oh, old habit from lisp I guess
2014-05-06T08:52:43Z jim: right now the big func is misnamed (it's named as if it does the whole job instead of just grouping)
2014-05-06T08:54:23Z ecraven: is there a need to actually keep the grouping for pattern matching?
2014-05-06T08:55:03Z jim: I never considered that question
2014-05-06T08:56:02Z jim: oh, I can get you some input, pjb' thing he wrote for me does that
2014-05-06T08:56:34Z ecraven: I really don't understand what you're trying to achieve, but it seems that when pattern-matching, you just create the longest notes you can anyway
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2014-05-06T08:57:22Z jim: notice the length gets longer when it sees a rest
2014-05-06T08:57:59Z jim: it's trying to turn an attack followed by rests into an attack with longer duration
2014-05-06T08:58:30Z ecraven: hm.. ((r8 r8) (d8 d8 d8) (d8 d8) d8) -> (r4 d4 ~ d8 d4 d8) the second part is d8 d4 d8, not d2, right?
2014-05-06T08:59:03Z igli: lul
2014-05-06T08:59:55Z jim: ecraven, overall? I'm makin practice exercises... the permutor needs all the same denom. note/rests
2014-05-06T08:59:57Z igli: sorry, i don't know scheme, that just made me think "wtf?"
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2014-05-06T09:00:24Z igli: "i thought lisps were supposed to read naturally."
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2014-05-06T09:01:06Z jim: igli, there's a thing called lilypond which you make a text file for, and it hands you back a pdf with a musical score
2014-05-06T09:01:27Z igli: yeah i've heard of that. ah i see, so rest 1/8?
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2014-05-06T09:01:39Z jim: yeah
2014-05-06T09:01:41Z igli: nice
2014-05-06T09:01:54Z igli: d = duration (on)?
2014-05-06T09:02:00Z igli: doh
2014-05-06T09:02:02Z jim: d means the note d
2014-05-06T09:02:03Z igli: d note
2014-05-06T09:02:09Z igli: yeah, slow sorry, tired
2014-05-06T09:02:14Z jim: d d notes the d note
2014-05-06T09:02:28Z igli: hehe don't get semantic on my ass ;)
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2014-05-06T09:04:41Z jim: here's arrangement.scm http://pastie.org/9145226
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2014-05-06T09:06:19Z jim: you can tell it to come up with things that have 5 8th rests and 3 d 8th notes
2014-05-06T09:06:59Z jim: and it will throw you back every combination of those
2014-05-06T09:07:09Z jim: then you could feed those to the grouper
2014-05-06T09:13:47Z jim: so one way to start, is by saying the converter thing should take a bar from the grouper and a pattern
2014-05-06T09:14:59Z jim: but maybe before that happens it should check for the exceptional caases
2014-05-06T09:15:23Z jim sproingles an s
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2014-05-06T09:32:33Z ecraven: jim: just playing around, if I can get the grouping across the pattern matcher, things should work :)
2014-05-06T09:34:11Z igli: hmm thanks jim; looks nice.
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2014-05-06T09:40:32Z igli: hehe remove is funny; reminds me of bash i write sometimes. less so now we have associative arrays, but script we rely on still has a lot of that.
2014-05-06T09:41:10Z ecraven: jim: (aggregate-notes-according-to-pattern '((r8 r8) (d8 d8 d8) (d8 d8) d8) '((1 2) (1 2)))  -> (((r8 r8) (d8 d8)) ((d8) (d8 d8) (d8)))
2014-05-06T09:41:16Z ecraven: does that look ok?
2014-05-06T09:41:31Z ecraven: still need to "add" the innermost notes together
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2014-05-06T09:53:16Z ecraven: (("r4" "d4") ("d8" "d4" "d8"))
2014-05-06T09:55:40Z ecraven: jim: really hacked together, but working for some cases :) http://paste.lisp.org/display/142416
2014-05-06T09:55:50Z ecraven: can probably be extended to work for everything
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2014-05-06T10:16:20Z jim: ecraven, wow, you wrote something? umm thanks!
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2014-05-06T10:20:52Z ecraven: jim: it's more a proof of concept than anything else though :)
2014-05-06T10:21:12Z jim: that's a lot of code
2014-05-06T10:21:31Z ecraven: should be refactored :)
2014-05-06T10:21:47Z ecraven: it'll probably break down badly if you give it anything but same-length notes
2014-05-06T10:21:48Z jim: so should mine
2014-05-06T10:22:13Z ecraven: also, I've written this under MIT/GNU Scheme, not sure whether guile provides the same libraries, shouldn't be hard to adapt though
2014-05-06T10:22:20Z jim: that's what arrangements outputs
2014-05-06T10:22:49Z ecraven: the note length stuff only works from d1 to d32, if you need finer grained lengths, that's not too hard to add too
2014-05-06T10:23:25Z ecraven: it also won't simplify to anything but entire notes (d1, d2, d4, ..) and dotted notes, not to multiple notes
2014-05-06T10:23:30Z jim: well actually that depends on what you give to arrangements... so far I've only given it 8th notes and rests, so that's what it will output
2014-05-06T10:23:46Z ecraven: so d8 d8 d8 d8 d8 won't work, for example
2014-05-06T10:23:53Z ecraven: it will probably, but be wrong
2014-05-06T10:24:13Z jim: you mean if those d8s are in a group?
2014-05-06T10:24:35Z igli: so need bars, or measures
2014-05-06T10:25:11Z jim: each list is a bar
2014-05-06T10:25:12Z ecraven: jim: exactly
2014-05-06T10:25:36Z ecraven: if the pattern splits them into one group, then the simplification step can't correctly output d2 d8 (yet) ;)
2014-05-06T10:25:52Z ecraven: just play around with it, see if it actually does what you want. if you need any more help, just ask
2014-05-06T10:26:02Z igli: ok
2014-05-06T10:26:10Z jim: so that would be for example a half note tied to an 8th, or a dotted quarter tied to a quarter (depending on where it appears in the bar)
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2014-05-06T10:27:08Z ecraven: jim: yes, everything but a simple not or a simple dotted note won't work (as it would need to output multiple notes instead of just one in lilypond). it wouldn't be too hard to do this, I just haven't tried very hard :) took the simple route
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2014-05-06T10:27:42Z jim: I'll definitely play with it
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2014-05-06T10:28:38Z ecraven: also, lilypond probably already has a few of the functions I wrote, for adding note lengths and stuff, you might look into using those. they are surely more robust than what I did
2014-05-06T10:29:01Z jim: I haven't figured out yet how to use the scheme in lilypond
2014-05-06T10:29:33Z ecraven: jim: there's something in the manual about it, but I haven't needed it much so far fortunately
2014-05-06T10:30:01Z jim: same here... which is why I kinda gave up trying to figure it out
2014-05-06T10:31:22Z jim: I can use scheme to write lilypond input files
2014-05-06T10:31:50Z ecraven: yea, unless you need to interact with the actual layouting, then you need to get inside lilypond :-/
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2014-05-06T10:38:04Z jim is out... thanks for writing this, and tomorrow I'll get something I can put with it to id you as the author
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2014-05-06T10:46:28Z ecraven: jim: no need, consider it public domain, for what that's worth :) if you really want to use this code productively, I'll refactor and clean it up :)
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2014-05-06T17:29:30Z DrDuck: 2.28 of sicp is really tootin' my horn http://mitpress.mit.edu/sicp/full-text/book/book-Z-H-15.html#%_thm_2.28
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2014-05-06T17:37:50Z DrDuck: Here is my progress on 2.28 of SICP. Could someone give me a nudge in the right direction of my second attempt? https://www.refheap.com/85183
2014-05-06T17:41:56Z DrDuck: woops edited the typos: https://www.refheap.com/85183
2014-05-06T17:45:33Z xyh: DrDuck: https://www.refheap.com/85184
2014-05-06T17:46:05Z xyh: DrDuck: sexp as a bi-tree
2014-05-06T17:47:38Z xyh: DrDuck: cool?
2014-05-06T17:48:43Z DrDuck: O_o
2014-05-06T17:48:51Z xyh: what?
2014-05-06T17:49:13Z DrDuck: I don't think the solution is intended to be that long, and there's some constructs in there not introduced yet in the book.
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2014-05-06T17:54:41Z xyh: it is long, because it does more (and much better) than your book wish.  you are doing your homework or what? who cares about what a book want? and whose study is limited by a book?
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2014-05-06T17:55:35Z xyh: by ``constructs which is not introduced yet'' you mean `letrec' ???
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2014-05-06T17:57:02Z DrDuck: nah not homework
2014-05-06T17:57:07Z DrDuck: just a book for fun
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2014-05-06T18:09:47Z xyh: DrDuck: SICP is a very good book, but i wish you do not read it page by page. ``the little schemer'' is a much more interesting book, IMHO, which you can't help to read page by page.
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2014-05-06T18:40:38Z jim: DrDuck, the SICP video lectures are pretty cool too
2014-05-06T18:42:15Z davexunit: jim: the SICP lecture on streams is the best CS lecture I've ever seen.
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2014-05-06T18:45:08Z jim: the way they describe streams, anyone can picture what a stream is
2014-05-06T18:45:40Z jim: the idea of pulling a string thru a tube
2014-05-06T18:45:50Z davexunit: yeah that was a great demonstration
2014-05-06T18:46:14Z davexunit: SICP's 3rd chapter has had a huge impact on my project to write a game engine in Scheme.
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2014-05-06T18:48:00Z davexunit: 3.3.4 and 3.3.5 in particular.
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2014-05-06T18:55:55Z jim: digital circuit simulator built from clearly thought out abstractions
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2014-05-06T19:13:18Z jim: DrDuck, I was looking for 2.28 of SICP... is that identifying an exercise?
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2014-05-06T19:15:16Z jim: wait, I'm getting there
2014-05-06T19:16:23Z jim: oh, fringe
2014-05-06T19:16:23Z DrDuck: jim: unfortunately i have to go to work. i'll be back in 8 hours. i'm thinking that 2.28 will be similar to 2.27 now. here's my solution to 2.27 https://www.refheap.com/85186
2014-05-06T19:16:41Z DrDuck: i think within the next 24, 2.28 hours it'll come to me
2014-05-06T19:16:58Z DrDuck: if you write anything helpful, though, i will be back in 8 hours to see and thank you in advance
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2014-05-06T19:17:49Z jim: ok. just so you know...
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2014-05-06T19:18:34Z jim: I'm sorta a beginner and sorta not (read precursor to SICP in the 70s, did some stuff in that book)
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2014-05-06T19:19:34Z DrDuck: ok bbl
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2014-05-06T19:33:19Z jim: DrDuck, some hints I could offer you, one, I think anything you've already written is fair game to use in subsequent solutions -- assuming you find them applicable. two, for debugging, display is your friend, as are any funcs you could write that print out instances of the abstractions you write.
2014-05-06T19:33:48Z jim: DrDuck, I know you're out and about... maybe you'll read this later :)
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2014-05-06T19:38:34Z jim: ecraven, heya. just now getting around to messing with your code... one thing, I'm checking for your permission to distribute and I want to give you credit by putting a "written by" comment in the code.
2014-05-06T19:39:43Z ecraven: jim: put "Peter Feigl" in there :) consider it public domain or whatever you want. but it should really be refactored, it's ugly as hell and very hackish
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2014-05-06T20:13:50Z sroy: Hi there. Is there any scheme library for http requests? (think cURL or similar in C or cl-http from common lisp)
2014-05-06T20:15:50Z sroy: (I meant drakma for common lisp...)
2014-05-06T20:19:58Z civodul: sroy: Guile has this: http://www.gnu.org/software/guile/manual/html_node/Web-Client.html
2014-05-06T20:20:42Z civodul: most implementations have such an API, but there's nothing standard AFAIk
2014-05-06T20:20:46Z mario-goulart: chicken has http://wiki.call-cc.org/egg/http-client
2014-05-06T20:22:15Z sroy: thanks!
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2014-05-06T20:28:58Z nicolaum: Do anyone know the speed of the built-in sort algorithm in scheme?
2014-05-06T20:31:22Z jim: 78 quatloos per centon?
2014-05-06T20:32:34Z jim: I make joke... probably need more info, such as what is the exact command you're using, and which scheme
2014-05-06T20:33:20Z jim: and, I don't personally have information tables on sort speed myself
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2014-05-06T20:33:33Z nicolaum: I use petite scheme and the command is (sort < 'a-list)
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2014-05-06T20:35:10Z jim: thanks... as mentioned I don't personally have the tables with the answers... other folks here might have more information (like where to look, or what internet searches you can do to find the answer, stuff like that)
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2014-05-06T20:41:58Z nicolaum: I think I will ask my teacher then, but thanks anyway :)
2014-05-06T20:42:13Z tsuyoshi: nicolaum: assuming you mean petite chez scheme, it says sort is the same as r6rs list-sort
2014-05-06T20:42:25Z tsuyoshi: which probably is a merge sort
2014-05-06T20:42:56Z tsuyoshi: since r6rs says list-sort should be o(n log n)
2014-05-06T20:43:41Z tsuyoshi: so uh, yeah... o(n log n)
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2014-05-06T20:47:19Z nicolaum: Thanks very much
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2014-05-06T21:15:18Z nicolaum: Is there a way in petite chez scheme to define a test procedure
2014-05-06T21:15:18Z nicolaum: where it only prints the timed values and not the result?
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2014-05-06T21:25:22Z rszeno: this mean to profile?
2014-05-06T21:26:04Z nicolaum: What do you mean?
2014-05-06T21:26:49Z rszeno: re timed values, you want to profile some  code?
2014-05-06T21:27:50Z rszeno: i don't use petit, but have a very good documentation http://www.scheme.com/csug8/system.html#./system:h7
2014-05-06T21:31:31Z nicolaum: It was not what I was looking for. I have defined two procedures that do the same and want to find which is the faster. It operates on huge lists and have no use of a list with thousands of elements, but I found a small hack that did the trick, it is only a test afterall.
2014-05-06T21:32:11Z rszeno: ok, :)
2014-05-06T21:36:33Z jim: one thing to realize about sorting, is its performance depends a lot on to what degree the input is not sorted
2014-05-06T21:37:27Z nicolaum: I operate on random lists so that is difficult to tell
2014-05-06T21:42:03Z nisstyre: jim: it also depends on the type of data you're sorting, e.g. radix sort will be better in some cases
2014-05-06T21:42:52Z nisstyre: nicolaum: the timsort algorithm is optimized to deal with data that might or might not be partially sorted
2014-05-06T21:43:08Z nisstyre: I don't know what the builtin sort in various Schemes does
2014-05-06T21:44:13Z jim: absolutely, and if you have a sorting algorithm where you provide a comparison and an exchange operator that work for the data you're sorting, the sort will also depend on the performance of the procs you give it
2014-05-06T21:48:15Z rszeno: if you don't need a stable sort algorithm, are other faster then timsort, for example heapsort
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2014-05-07T13:34:34Z DrDuck:  jim thanks
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2014-05-07T14:30:18Z jusss: does mit/gun scheme only have four function about socket ?
2014-05-07T14:30:59Z jusss: http://web.mit.edu/scheme_v9.0.1/doc/mit-scheme-ref/TCP-Sockets.html#TCP-Sockets
2014-05-07T14:30:59Z rudybot: http://tinyurl.com/kl85uht
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2014-05-07T14:33:42Z rszeno: jusss, try in repl (apropos "socket")
2014-05-07T14:34:32Z jusss: rszeno: i see, thx
2014-05-07T14:37:20Z jusss: rszeno: can mit/gun scheme call other outside library? such as usock iolib
2014-05-07T14:41:15Z rszeno: i'm sure is possible to call foreign functions but i don't realy know how
2014-05-07T14:42:48Z rszeno: jusss, a short search, http://www.gnu.org/software/mit-scheme/documentation/mit-scheme-ref/Foreign-function-interface.html
2014-05-07T14:42:49Z rudybot: http://tinyurl.com/pcofe35
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2014-05-07T14:52:56Z hk3380: is a non tail-recursive factorial function considered stateful or stateless? http://pastebin.com/hmsqa2LD
2014-05-07T14:53:31Z vraid: that is a tail recursive function
2014-05-07T14:53:57Z hk3380: one that has as its last computation a recursive call
2014-05-07T14:54:34Z hk3380: this one http://pastebin.com/gPd1vadJ for eg
2014-05-07T14:55:16Z rszeno: recursive too but in another way
2014-05-07T14:55:20Z vraid: oh, you're completely right
2014-05-07T14:55:22Z hk3380: oh, sorry i thought you asked 'what is a tail recursive'
2014-05-07T14:55:24Z vraid: i'm sorry
2014-05-07T14:56:30Z hk3380: so is the first link stateless or stateful?
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2014-05-07T15:02:38Z rszeno: what do you mean by stateless or stateful?
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2014-05-07T15:05:07Z hk3380: whether it cares about the state of the program or not
2014-05-07T15:05:24Z hk3380: where state is the set of all variables that are not passed as arguments to the function
2014-05-07T15:06:06Z hk3380: i know for sure the 2nd one isn't because it basically passes the whole state in the arguments
2014-05-07T15:06:55Z hk3380: but the first one has a lot of nested recursive functions kind of communicating with each other, but not sure if it counts as being stateful
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2014-05-07T15:12:26Z vraid: hk3380: if you modified 'number' that was sent to the top call in another thread, before the factorial function has finished
2014-05-07T15:12:43Z vraid: i suppose you could change the output, making the function stateful
2014-05-07T15:14:07Z rszeno: in first, the multiplication with 'number' is done after the result of the recursive call return the value of (n-1)!
2014-05-07T15:16:13Z pleek: When I have seen such interchange of state, Or state itself confounded, to decay...
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2014-05-07T15:16:47Z pleek: Most programs seem to have state.  Are you talking about what some call "mutable" state?
2014-05-07T15:21:03Z hk3380: vraid: isn't that instance of 'number' local to the function? how would a different thread modify it
2014-05-07T15:21:10Z rszeno: i'm confuse about "not passed as arguments", and not sure what is in state ( continuation is part of the state? )
2014-05-07T15:21:35Z pleek: rszeno: Of course, if you like so
2014-05-07T15:22:19Z hk3380: pleek: not sure about the exact definition of 'mutable' state, is it tied with referntial transparency / function purity?
2014-05-07T15:22:33Z pleek: hk3380: Yes, quite.
2014-05-07T15:23:02Z pleek: When I say "mutable state", I mean that I broke referntial transparency.
2014-05-07T15:23:26Z pleek: (Which means that I used something ending with an exclamation mark)
2014-05-07T15:23:53Z hk3380: rszeno: by 'not passed as arguments' i mean variables not strictly in the local scope of the function i guess. if continuation is part of the state, i think it should be a stateless function, right?
2014-05-07T15:24:42Z pleek: Some say that the state "is made explicit" by lambda bindings.
2014-05-07T15:26:04Z hk3380: pleek: right, so you're talking about assigning something to a global. they do seem to be quite dependent on each other all this stuff
2014-05-07T15:26:09Z hk3380: i don't even know
2014-05-07T15:26:18Z hk3380: i think it should be stateless
2014-05-07T15:26:32Z hk3380: the function that is
2014-05-07T15:28:48Z pleek: SICP 1.2.1:  In general, an iterative process is one whose state can be summarized by a fixed number of state variables [...]
2014-05-07T15:29:00Z pleek: ( http://mitpress.mit.edu/sicp/full-text/book/book-Z-H-11.html#%_sec_1.2.1 )
2014-05-07T15:29:24Z pleek: They talk about the same factorial procedure there.  And seem to be calling it "stateful".
2014-05-07T15:30:11Z pleek: hk3380:  I would also talk of "mutable state" when set!-ing a local variable.
2014-05-07T15:32:47Z taylanub: it might be that some people call immutable state "no" state aka "stateless", should become clear in context
2014-05-07T15:36:20Z oleo: bah
2014-05-07T15:37:19Z rszeno: i have the feeling that here state is something about current stack
2014-05-07T15:37:38Z hk3380: pleek: i think i'll just stay away from this terminology for a while
2014-05-07T15:37:44Z hk3380: can't think further today
2014-05-07T15:40:36Z pleek: rszeno: Me too.  But of course you can build a stackless evaluator.
2014-05-07T15:41:27Z pleek: hk3380: It's just words :)
2014-05-07T15:45:38Z rszeno: true, but is annoying when you can't make clear what they mean and can't ignore them
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2014-05-07T16:39:18Z DrDuck: jim: i finally solved 2.28 :DDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDD
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2014-05-07T16:40:39Z DrDuck: nvm almost :[
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2014-05-07T16:43:18Z ANGRYSTEVE: solve me
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2014-05-07T17:12:33Z taylanub: ANGRYSTEVE: considered anger management therapy?
2014-05-07T17:12:40Z ANGRYSTEVE: no
2014-05-07T17:16:27Z DrDuck: ok solved it
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2014-05-07T17:20:20Z pleek: DrDuck: does it work on improper lists?
2014-05-07T17:20:52Z DrDuck: pleek: improper lists?
2014-05-07T17:21:03Z pleek: something like (1 2 . 3)
2014-05-07T17:21:28Z DrDuck: it works on lists, like the exercise asked
2014-05-07T17:21:34Z pleek: :)
2014-05-07T17:21:48Z DrDuck: and ofcourse now that it's finished and i'm looking at others solutions
2014-05-07T17:21:55Z DrDuck: theirs are more elegant by such a long shot
2014-05-07T17:22:11Z DrDuck: and mine is butt ugly lol
2014-05-07T17:22:18Z pleek: Don't worry.  They wouldn't publish it otherwise.
2014-05-07T17:22:19Z DrDuck: feelsbad.jpg
2014-05-07T17:22:56Z DrDuck: yeah, but just the fact that i spent a day and a half on it and came up with the ugliest solution
2014-05-07T17:23:14Z pleek: Trust me: it is most likely not the ugliest.
2014-05-07T17:23:39Z DrDuck: idk about that man lol. wanna see it?
2014-05-07T17:23:47Z pleek: Yes.
2014-05-07T17:23:53Z DrDuck: and then i'll show you someone's solution that i thought was elegant
2014-05-07T17:24:27Z pleek: How much time does your solution take?
2014-05-07T17:24:34Z pleek: And how much space?
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2014-05-07T17:25:28Z DrDuck: brace yourself
2014-05-07T17:25:29Z DrDuck: https://www.refheap.com/85228
2014-05-07T17:25:33Z DrDuck: mine's the first one heh
2014-05-07T17:25:49Z DrDuck: i based it on my solution to 2.27
2014-05-07T17:25:53Z DrDuck: xD
2014-05-07T17:26:04Z pleek: I see.
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2014-05-07T17:26:15Z DrDuck: *ducks*
2014-05-07T17:26:16Z pleek: Obviously, you do not need that mark.
2014-05-07T17:27:23Z DrDuck: i suppose the most important thing is that i can continue in the book now and not be stuck on this problem
2014-05-07T17:27:29Z pleek: :)
2014-05-07T17:27:42Z pleek: I never made all that exercises.
2014-05-07T17:27:45Z DrDuck: i'm not even sure if mine is recursive or tail recursive
2014-05-07T17:28:03Z pleek: Use your implementation tracer to find out.
2014-05-07T17:28:16Z DrDuck: i'm hoping to do all exercises
2014-05-07T17:28:18Z DrDuck: tracer?
2014-05-07T17:28:47Z DrDuck: oh, do you mean the mit-scheme debugger? i honestly don't understand how to use it yet
2014-05-07T17:28:58Z pleek: A facility to mark a function and get log-like output on application and return.
2014-05-07T17:29:10Z pleek: Let me install mit-scheme...
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2014-05-07T17:29:23Z DrDuck: it's pretty tricky
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2014-05-07T17:31:58Z pleek: Until my mit-scheme is ready, you can take a look at this: http://codepad.org/ZLbFPuRk
2014-05-07T17:32:16Z pleek: I used Gambit's tracer to generate that.
2014-05-07T17:32:34Z DrDuck: woah
2014-05-07T17:32:35Z DrDuck: :O
2014-05-07T17:32:54Z pleek: You can see: there are some tail calls, and some call that are not tail calls
2014-05-07T17:33:07Z pleek: When indentation gets a level greater, the stack has grown.
2014-05-07T17:33:14Z pleek: When not, we have a tail call.
2014-05-07T17:34:09Z pleek: Actually, there seems to be only one tail call in my example call.
2014-05-07T17:34:09Z DrDuck: i wish i could use gambit or racket or something of the sort, but i've heard a lot about those implementations of scheme not being compatible in a lot of key areas of the book :<
2014-05-07T17:34:32Z pleek: Thats funny.  I did exactly like you some years ago.
2014-05-07T17:34:36Z DrDuck: i'm not even sure if mit-scheme has a tracer
2014-05-07T17:34:38Z DrDuck: *googles*
2014-05-07T17:35:05Z pleek: However, nearly everthing from SICP works in every R5RS system.
2014-05-07T17:35:13Z pleek: And you can add the other stuff very easily.
2014-05-07T17:35:31Z pleek: Many implementations (at least Gambit) ship with files for SICP.
2014-05-07T17:37:01Z rszeno: trace-entry
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2014-05-07T17:38:26Z DrDuck: i guess i should probably read the mit-scheme debugging manual
2014-05-07T17:38:35Z rszeno: DrDuck, see info pages, User node, are few trace-xxx,
2014-05-07T17:39:18Z DrDuck: i didn't understand that last message
2014-05-07T17:39:26Z DrDuck: user node?
2014-05-07T17:39:32Z DrDuck: what info pages
2014-05-07T17:39:59Z rszeno: Mit Scheme, there is a info manual, texinfo
2014-05-07T17:41:23Z rszeno: and are two files, called node, one is reference the other one user, both manuals
2014-05-07T17:42:06Z rszeno: do you use linux?
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2014-05-07T17:42:54Z pleek: (or *bsd)
2014-05-07T17:44:13Z DrDuck: linux in a vm, yes
2014-05-07T17:44:37Z DrDuck: you're referring to this, right? http://groups.csail.mit.edu/mac/ftpdir/scheme-7.4/doc-html/user_6.html
2014-05-07T17:44:53Z rszeno: yes, but is local
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2014-05-07T17:45:38Z pleek: You seem to need `trace-entry' and `trace-exit'.
2014-05-07T17:45:46Z rszeno: using info is more easy then using a browser, you can search
2014-05-07T17:46:04Z DrDuck: oh ok
2014-05-07T17:46:08Z DrDuck: i'll check into it :D
2014-05-07T17:46:17Z rszeno: info info
2014-05-07T17:46:20Z pleek: emacs emacs
2014-05-07T17:46:59Z rszeno: from emacs C-h i
2014-05-07T17:47:36Z rszeno: sorry for interrupt., :)
2014-05-07T17:47:41Z pleek: :)
2014-05-07T17:50:25Z DrDuck: so you guys are saying i can read this in an info reader without having to go online? http://www.gnu.org/software/mit-scheme/documentation/mit-scheme-user/
2014-05-07T17:50:46Z rszeno: yes, :)
2014-05-07T17:50:47Z DrDuck: on emacs, too. that would be very useful
2014-05-07T17:51:49Z rszeno: C-h i, then type m and write Mit, it have completion with tab
2014-05-07T17:52:17Z pleek: (building mit-scheme does take really long ...)
2014-05-07T17:52:58Z rszeno: is big, :)
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2014-05-07T17:55:17Z DrDuck: hmm i don't have the mit-scheme info file apparently
2014-05-07T17:55:21Z DrDuck: it's fine though
2014-05-07T17:55:25Z pleek: Never mind.
2014-05-07T17:55:26Z DrDuck: reading online will suffice
2014-05-07T17:55:27Z DrDuck: :D
2014-05-07T17:55:42Z rszeno: what linux?
2014-05-07T17:55:43Z pleek: Sometimes, a boring browser suffices
2014-05-07T17:56:06Z DrDuck: ubuntu 10.0.4
2014-05-07T17:56:12Z DrDuck: it's really alright, though
2014-05-07T17:56:19Z DrDuck: i'll just keep the manual bookmarked
2014-05-07T17:56:21Z DrDuck: :D
2014-05-07T17:56:25Z ANGRYSTEVE: ... I really need to learn emacs
2014-05-07T17:57:01Z pleek: Emacs is my daily training in anger management.
2014-05-07T17:57:19Z ANGRYSTEVE: it's awfully painful to code in scheme when you don't know your editor
2014-05-07T17:57:46Z rszeno: it come in a single package, scheme and documentation as info
2014-05-07T17:57:55Z pleek: It is quite impossible without automatic indentation and paren hightlighting
2014-05-07T17:58:14Z rszeno: on debian and debian based distros
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2014-05-07T17:58:35Z ANGRYSTEVE: I just select and tab
2014-05-07T17:58:39Z ANGRYSTEVE: or tab after each line
2014-05-07T17:58:55Z pleek: Then you are fine.
2014-05-07T17:59:07Z pleek: Ask on #emacs how to make that happen automatically.
2014-05-07T17:59:13Z ANGRYSTEVE: parentheses are highlighted as well
2014-05-07T17:59:22Z pleek: Since Emacs 22 i think.
2014-05-07T17:59:33Z ANGRYSTEVE: swap alt-j with enter I think?
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2014-05-07T17:59:39Z ANGRYSTEVE: or was it k
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2014-05-07T18:00:03Z ANGRYSTEVE: I'm trying to install BNF mode for scheme
2014-05-07T18:00:18Z pleek: ANGRYSTEVE: http://www.emacswiki.org/emacs/AutoIndentation
2014-05-07T18:00:30Z ANGRYSTEVE: ah yes C-j
2014-05-07T18:01:27Z pleek: rszeno: Sadly, mit-scheme seems to be missing in debian 7 stable on amd64.
2014-05-07T18:02:23Z rszeno: i didn't know, i still use debian 6
2014-05-07T18:02:39Z pleek: Thats fine.  No heartbleed.
2014-05-07T18:03:15Z pleek: (I think.)
2014-05-07T18:03:42Z rszeno: is not a problem, was patched in few hours after was found, on all distors probably
2014-05-07T18:04:20Z pleek: But who updates all the systems I have shipped?
2014-05-07T18:04:25Z rszeno: is too much noise in my opinion, :)
2014-05-07T18:05:51Z rszeno: i usualy update manualy but i guess automatic update is default for apt
2014-05-07T18:06:19Z ddp joined #scheme
2014-05-07T18:06:21Z pleek: My sad systems are embedded into sorts of machines and have no internet route :)
2014-05-07T18:06:42Z DrDuck: pleek: thanks for the help. getting ready for work now. see you guys later
2014-05-07T18:06:55Z pleek: You are very welcome.
2014-05-07T18:07:25Z rszeno: no net, no danger, :)
2014-05-07T18:07:37Z pleek: That's what i hope!
2014-05-07T18:07:56Z pleek: However, some strange Windows boxes are connected from time to time.
2014-05-07T18:07:59Z araujo quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
2014-05-07T18:07:59Z pleek: Ok, enough.
2014-05-07T18:12:50Z zarul joined #scheme
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2014-05-07T18:13:45Z ANGRYSTEVE: I'm asked to implement three structurally recursive procedures proper-list-ref, proper-list-tail and proper-list-head that respectively emulate the predefined procedures list-ref, list-tail and list-head
2014-05-07T18:14:29Z pleek: What does "structurally recursive" mean?
2014-05-07T18:14:35Z ANGRYSTEVE: so I defined proper-list-ref with a bunch of conditions
2014-05-07T18:14:53Z ANGRYSTEVE: honestly have no idea
2014-05-07T18:15:00Z pleek: Like me.
2014-05-07T18:15:01Z turbofail: pleek: usually it means that you recurse on a value by breaking it up in some way
2014-05-07T18:15:27Z pleek: turbofail: Thanks, that makes sense.
2014-05-07T18:15:28Z turbofail: as opposed to generative recursion
2014-05-07T18:15:49Z ANGRYSTEVE: I also asked my TA why we don't use letrec instead of let since it's the same but with more features
2014-05-07T18:15:57Z ANGRYSTEVE: or I think it's the same
2014-05-07T18:15:59Z pleek: It is not.
2014-05-07T18:16:07Z turbofail: letrec actually has more restrictions
2014-05-07T18:16:10Z ANGRYSTEVE: oh
2014-05-07T18:16:30Z tenq|out is now known as tenq
2014-05-07T18:16:36Z turbofail: basically if you're binding anything that's not a function in letrec you're probably doing it wrong
2014-05-07T18:17:06Z pleek: With streams beeing one exception.
2014-05-07T18:17:55Z ANGRYSTEVE: desugaring let is ((lambda (x1 x2... xN) e0) e1 e2... eN)
2014-05-07T18:17:56Z ANGRYSTEVE: right?
2014-05-07T18:18:09Z pleek: Yes.
2014-05-07T18:18:18Z pleek: But what about desugared letrec?
2014-05-07T18:18:26Z ANGRYSTEVE: dunno, my TA it's different
2014-05-07T18:18:30Z antoszka: Guys, looking to extend some Java code with inline Scheme – is there a JVM implementation that runs on the JVM, can get compiled to the Java bytecode (performance is important) and does dictionaries/regexes (that'd be the interchange format with the outer java program)?
2014-05-07T18:19:20Z pleek: ANGRYSTEVE: For desugared letrec, you need mutations or the Y combinator.
2014-05-07T18:19:22Z turbofail: antoszka: your best bet for that is probably kawa
2014-05-07T18:19:34Z ANGRYSTEVE: so something I don't know :D
2014-05-07T18:19:49Z pleek: Just ignore that for now.
2014-05-07T18:20:04Z balkamos quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2014-05-07T18:20:06Z antoszka: turbofail: any externals deps for doing hashes/regexes you'd particularly recommend? i'm more of a CL guy, and don't lurk much around the Scheme ecosystem.
2014-05-07T18:20:14Z ANGRYSTEVE: turbofail, I everthing right with the induction proofs... except the part where I actually had to prove the distributive property to continue
2014-05-07T18:20:19Z ANGRYSTEVE: I had*
2014-05-07T18:21:00Z turbofail: antoszka: i'm pretty sure kawa comes with some sort of hash table and regex stuff, and if not you can use java interop
2014-05-07T18:21:29Z pleek: ANGRYSTEVE: would your TA accept (define proper-list-head car) ?
2014-05-07T18:21:39Z antoszka: Yeah, I'd want to confine that to pure scheme and scheme-libs and only interface with java at the “final product” layer :)
2014-05-07T18:21:47Z ANGRYSTEVE: no idea
2014-05-07T18:21:52Z antoszka: But if you say it comes with stuff I'll have a look, thanks!
2014-05-07T18:21:59Z ANGRYSTEVE: that would be easy?
2014-05-07T18:22:00Z balkamos joined #scheme
2014-05-07T18:22:19Z pleek: Seems so.
2014-05-07T18:22:36Z ANGRYSTEVE: oh
2014-05-07T18:22:42Z ANGRYSTEVE: it also needs to handle errors
2014-05-07T18:22:48Z ANGRYSTEVE: so yeah...
2014-05-07T18:22:53Z ANGRYSTEVE: I can include that
2014-05-07T18:23:04Z ANGRYSTEVE: + error handling
2014-05-07T18:23:10Z ANGRYSTEVE: use cond?
2014-05-07T18:23:21Z pleek: Yes.
2014-05-07T18:23:29Z ANGRYSTEVE: then [else car xs}
2014-05-07T18:23:31Z ANGRYSTEVE: argh
2014-05-07T18:23:32Z ANGRYSTEVE: ]
2014-05-07T18:24:00Z pleek: You can use (list? foo) to determine if foo is a proper list.
2014-05-07T18:24:14Z ANGRYSTEVE: let's start with ref :)
2014-05-07T18:24:18Z pleek: No!
2014-05-07T18:24:22Z pleek: Start with tail!
2014-05-07T18:24:36Z pleek: And with head.
2014-05-07T18:24:41Z ANGRYSTEVE: are you serious? :D
2014-05-07T18:25:04Z ANGRYSTEVE: they are more and less the same just with a different else statement
2014-05-07T18:25:05Z ANGRYSTEVE: I think
2014-05-07T18:25:17Z pleek: You get `ref' when you combine `tail' and `head'.
2014-05-07T18:25:46Z ANGRYSTEVE: but I already made ref
2014-05-07T18:26:05Z ANGRYSTEVE: (proper-list-ref (cdr xs) (1- n))
2014-05-07T18:26:08Z pleek: Then you need to delete a little bit from that to get `tail'.
2014-05-07T18:26:09Z ANGRYSTEVE: in the else statement
2014-05-07T18:27:15Z pleek: Consider (define (ref ls n) (head (tail ls n)))
2014-05-07T18:27:24Z balkamos quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2014-05-07T18:27:47Z pleek: When you take the applicaton of `head' out, you have the same functions.
2014-05-07T18:28:23Z ANGRYSTEVE: but I thought I had to make it structurally recursive
2014-05-07T18:28:31Z pleek: Oh, yes.
2014-05-07T18:28:32Z ANGRYSTEVE: dunno, maybe I need to make more sense of that word
2014-05-07T18:28:35Z balkamos joined #scheme
2014-05-07T18:28:40Z ANGRYSTEVE: alright
2014-05-07T18:28:49Z ANGRYSTEVE: my way is correct right?
2014-05-07T18:28:58Z pleek: If it works, it must be.
2014-05-07T18:29:08Z ANGRYSTEVE: well, I can't fix my error handling
2014-05-07T18:29:13Z ANGRYSTEVE: it works if it's correct
2014-05-07T18:29:19Z pleek: Feel free to show us.
2014-05-07T18:30:18Z ANGRYSTEVE: now I broke everything
2014-05-07T18:30:20Z ANGRYSTEVE: ok
2014-05-07T18:30:30Z ANGRYSTEVE: let me use my laptop
2014-05-07T18:30:50Z Steverman joined #scheme
2014-05-07T18:30:59Z Steverman: ok
2014-05-07T18:31:06Z Steverman: I relaly need a fast way to paste my stuff
2014-05-07T18:31:09Z Steverman: really*
2014-05-07T18:31:21Z pleek: codepad.org?
2014-05-07T18:31:25Z jim: DrDuck, welcome. I can offer an example of the debugging thing in something fairly complex, if you look at this: http://pastie.org/9150734 you will see this big proc in there called rests-to-duration-parser, notice its param list, and then look for a define of debug and see what it prints. then look in rests-to-duration-parser for calls to debug. if you want to run it you might want some other procs I have. It doesn't show the play-by-play of how I got it work
2014-05-07T18:31:25Z jim: ing, but it does show a possibility.
2014-05-07T18:32:26Z Steverman: http://pastebin.com/raw.php?i=eDCvzKnD
2014-05-07T18:32:48Z Steverman: don't mind the second error message
2014-05-07T18:32:51Z Steverman: but lol, I broke it
2014-05-07T18:32:58Z Steverman: I can't run anythin
2014-05-07T18:33:18Z pleek: Steverman: You need to be sure that xs is a pair before taking (cdr xs).
2014-05-07T18:33:33Z ANGRYSTEVE: (pair? xs)
2014-05-07T18:33:55Z pleek: You could add a clause ((not (pair? xs)) (error ...))
2014-05-07T18:34:04Z Steverman: oh sorry, wrong client
2014-05-07T18:34:07Z Steverman: ok
2014-05-07T18:34:21Z pleek: That should catch all possible runtime errors.
2014-05-07T18:34:30Z Steverman: I saw my friend use letrec
2014-05-07T18:34:43Z pleek: Use it for what purpose?
2014-05-07T18:34:47Z Steverman: no idea
2014-05-07T18:34:53Z pleek: So never mind.
2014-05-07T18:35:05Z ANGRYSTEVE: http://users-cs.au.dk/danvy/dProgSprog/Lecture-notes/week-18.html#exercise-proper-list-ref-tail-head
2014-05-07T18:35:06Z rudybot: http://tinyurl.com/oyrhfc2
2014-05-07T18:35:06Z pleek: Top level define does essentially the same thing for you.
2014-05-07T18:35:49Z Steverman: that's the exercise I'm doing
2014-05-07T18:37:00Z Steverman: okay, so you want me to add another test?
2014-05-07T18:37:14Z pleek: My proposed clause would catch this: (0 10 100 . 1000)
2014-05-07T18:37:25Z pleek: Since (pair? 1000) is false.
2014-05-07T18:37:36Z pleek: Oh, wait.
2014-05-07T18:38:09Z pleek: Thats right.
2014-05-07T18:38:34Z Steverman: but can you find my error right now?
2014-05-07T18:38:47Z Steverman: Exception in errorf: invalid message argument 2
2014-05-07T18:38:55Z Steverman: > (proper-list-ref (list 1 2 3 4) 2)
2014-05-07T18:39:01Z pleek: Dunno, sorry.  `errorf' is not standard.
2014-05-07T18:39:11Z pleek: Can you provide the implementation of `errorf'?
2014-05-07T18:39:20Z Steverman: uh, how do I do that
2014-05-07T18:39:22Z Steverman: I use petite chez
2014-05-07T18:40:03Z pleek: Just a guess: try ~d instead of ~s
2014-05-07T18:40:22Z pleek: Or (number->string n) instead of `n'.
2014-05-07T18:40:28Z Steverman: my TA used ~s
2014-05-07T18:40:36Z pleek: For a number or a string?
2014-05-07T18:41:16Z Steverman: for.. http://pastebin.com/raw.php?i=HWy2zT6y
2014-05-07T18:41:26Z Steverman: a list I guess
2014-05-07T18:41:32Z pleek: Yes, seems so.
2014-05-07T18:41:45Z Steverman: the thing is
2014-05-07T18:41:47Z Steverman: it worked before
2014-05-07T18:42:15Z Steverman: like if I enter valid arguments
2014-05-07T18:42:18Z pleek: The fine manual: http://www.scheme.com/csug8/io.html#g80
2014-05-07T18:42:20Z Steverman: it would do the ref
2014-05-07T18:42:44Z Steverman: my friend earlier did it too
2014-05-07T18:42:49Z Steverman: his works with  ~s
2014-05-07T18:42:53Z pleek: > The ~s directive is replaced by the printed representation of the next obj, which may be any object, in machine-readable format, as with write.
2014-05-07T18:43:03Z pleek: So my guess was wrong.
2014-05-07T18:44:59Z Steverman: hmm
2014-05-07T18:45:07Z Steverman: I will try without any fancy errors
2014-05-07T18:45:38Z Steverman: LOL, that's why
2014-05-07T18:45:54Z Steverman: it has to be not interger?
2014-05-07T18:46:00Z pleek: Dunno.
2014-05-07T18:46:19Z Steverman: is it a integer.. yes.. show error message
2014-05-07T18:46:20Z Steverman: :D
2014-05-07T18:46:22Z Steverman: whoops
2014-05-07T18:46:33Z pleek: Ahh.
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2014-05-07T18:48:30Z Steverman: meh, doesn't make sense
2014-05-07T18:48:33Z Steverman: now it says "hey"
2014-05-07T18:48:36Z Steverman: the second error
2014-05-07T18:48:59Z pleek: Then your `n' was too big.
2014-05-07T18:49:15Z Steverman: I put a negaitve number
2014-05-07T18:49:28Z pleek: Or smaller than zero.
2014-05-07T18:49:50Z pleek: You can catch that by removing (zero? n).
2014-05-07T18:49:59Z pleek: And replacing it by (<= n 0).
2014-05-07T18:50:45Z pleek: But that might not be what you want.
2014-05-07T18:50:56Z pleek: Because you might want an error in that case.
2014-05-07T18:52:33Z Steverman: frustrating stuff
2014-05-07T18:53:50Z Steverman: here it is
2014-05-07T18:53:52Z Steverman: http://users-cs.au.dk/danvy/dProgSprog/Lecture-notes/week-18.html#raising-errors
2014-05-07T18:53:52Z rudybot: http://tinyurl.com/mqoyjeo
2014-05-07T18:55:55Z vanila quit (Quit: Leaving)
2014-05-07T18:56:16Z Steverman: I think I have to check if it's an integer
2014-05-07T18:56:25Z Steverman: then check if it's negative
2014-05-07T18:56:42Z pleek: That's not clear to me after peeking the text.
2014-05-07T18:57:12Z barryfm joined #scheme
2014-05-07T18:58:44Z Steverman: okay, let's forget about it
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2014-05-07T19:01:38Z Steverman: I still don't understand why (proper-list-ref (list 1 2 3 4) -1) makes say "hey"
2014-05-07T19:01:41Z Steverman: the list isn't null
2014-05-07T19:02:04Z Steverman: am I not catching that negative number early enough?
2014-05-07T19:02:21Z pleek: After four iterations, the list `xs' *is* null.
2014-05-07T19:02:52Z Steverman: hmm
2014-05-07T19:03:22Z Steverman: so I check for an integer? Then check if it's negative
2014-05-07T19:03:41Z Steverman: or can I do both?
2014-05-07T19:05:08Z Steverman: I basically wanna do 'exact-nonnegative-integer?'
2014-05-07T19:05:14Z Steverman: uh negative*
2014-05-07T19:05:20Z Steverman: or just not it
2014-05-07T19:06:08Z pleek: http://www.schemers.org/Documents/Standards/R5RS/HTML/r5rs-Z-H-9.html#%_sec_6.2.1
2014-05-07T19:06:08Z rudybot: http://tinyurl.com/l3ueuze
2014-05-07T19:06:29Z pleek: There is no predicate more discriminating than integer?.
2014-05-07T19:06:35Z pleek: In R5RS.
2014-05-07T19:06:59Z theseb quit (Quit: Leaving)
2014-05-07T19:07:13Z pleek: You can (define (non-negative-integer? x) (and (integer? x) (>= x 0)))
2014-05-07T19:08:11Z Steverman: I know nothing :)
2014-05-07T19:08:15Z Steverman: but I guess I can do that
2014-05-07T19:09:41Z leb quit (Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com)
2014-05-07T19:13:30Z Steverman: well, I won't define it
2014-05-07T19:13:41Z Steverman: so if I wanted to check for string as well in that code
2014-05-07T19:14:13Z Steverman: mmmh, I'll just include it as another condition
2014-05-07T19:15:06Z hiroakip quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2014-05-07T19:15:18Z pleek: Simply check if `n' is a number.
2014-05-07T19:15:42Z DrDuck quit (Quit: Page closed)
2014-05-07T19:15:50Z Steverman: I have to make it say Exception in list-ref: index "hello world" is not an exact nonnegative integer
2014-05-07T19:15:58Z pleek: What about (proper-list-ref '(0 1 2 3) proper-list-ref) ?
2014-05-07T19:16:32Z pleek: `proper-list-ref' is neither a number nor a string.
2014-05-07T19:17:08Z Steverman: ugh
2014-05-07T19:17:33Z pleek: If `n' is no number, you have an error.  This includes strings.
2014-05-07T19:18:08Z Steverman: so just a (not (integer? n)) ?
2014-05-07T19:18:19Z pleek: Yes.
2014-05-07T19:18:22Z Steverman: alright
2014-05-07T19:18:58Z pleek: Maybe use `non-negative-integer?' instead of `integer'.
2014-05-07T19:19:50Z Steverman: I didn't define it
2014-05-07T19:20:00Z pleek: Then inline it.
2014-05-07T19:21:03Z pleek: However, you can come along without it.
2014-05-07T19:23:49Z pleek: In case of `n' beeing negative, you will fall into the null case at the end of the iteration.
2014-05-07T19:24:16Z pnkfelix quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2014-05-07T19:25:56Z Steverman: hmmm
2014-05-07T19:26:34Z pleek: The same if n is greater than the length of the list.
2014-05-07T19:26:55Z pleek: (Or equal.)
2014-05-07T19:27:40Z Steverman: I thought ((and (integer? n) (>= n))
2014-05-07T19:27:44Z Steverman: caught the negative n
2014-05-07T19:29:44Z Steverman: Exception: attempt to apply non-procedure #t
2014-05-07T19:29:46Z Steverman: alrighty then
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2014-05-07T19:30:35Z pleek: If you included that, you catch a negtive `n'.
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2014-05-07T19:40:45Z Steverman: aha! Syntax checker works!
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2014-05-07T19:59:08Z Steverman: rofl
2014-05-07T19:59:11Z Steverman: I don't understand this
2014-05-07T20:00:04Z weinholt quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2014-05-07T20:00:29Z Steverman: I'm tracing it and it does what it has to do but still spits out an error
2014-05-07T20:00:43Z Steverman: the one for the negated negative integer check
2014-05-07T20:06:51Z samth: wingo: thank you
2014-05-07T20:07:11Z wingo: for deleting the sentences i didn't include? :)
2014-05-07T20:07:28Z samth: wingo: feel free to send the sentences to me for my entertainment :)
2014-05-07T20:07:40Z wingo: they are gone :)
2014-05-07T20:07:47Z wingo: for reals though, wtf r7rs
2014-05-07T20:07:49Z samth: but no, thank you for saying what apparently no one else has even noticed
2014-05-07T20:09:00Z weinholt joined #scheme
2014-05-07T20:09:24Z samth: wingo: r7rs has been a joke for years
2014-05-07T20:09:25Z wingo: i like the name "scheme" and i like the idea of being part of something but this ain't it :P
2014-05-07T20:09:30Z pleek: Steverman: Could you post your current version?
2014-05-07T20:10:10Z wingo: samth: at least the product (if not the process) of the small version was not harmful
2014-05-07T20:10:40Z rszeno quit (Quit: Leaving.)
2014-05-07T20:10:57Z samth: wingo: i disagree -- it ditched a bunch of the clarification and precision of r6rs, along with the semantics, and then added a lot of division operators
2014-05-07T20:10:58Z wingo: somehow in scheme we manage to get both the restrictions and the features
2014-05-07T20:11:21Z wingo: samth: haha be fair, the division operators don't affect much and are useful ;)
2014-05-07T20:11:43Z Steverman: http://pastebin.com/raw.php?i=kU8XZzZU
2014-05-07T20:11:46Z Steverman: pleek:
2014-05-07T20:12:00Z wingo: and indeed relative to the r6rs there is much less precision, but yeah.  old discussions.
2014-05-07T20:13:01Z tenq is now known as tenq|out
2014-05-07T20:13:24Z samth: wingo: i don't even mean about what errors do -- i just mean vagueness in language
2014-05-07T20:13:25Z wingo: time passes in guile and we find ourselves saying "damn, r6rs did a much better job here than we do"
2014-05-07T20:13:44Z samth: mike put a ton of work into the drafting, and r7 just started over with r5
2014-05-07T20:14:01Z Steverman: interesting.. my lecturer uses letrec as well
2014-05-07T20:14:35Z pleek: Steverman: What is the problematic call?
2014-05-07T20:14:38Z wingo thought starting over was an error as well; the r6rs base language document would have been a better start
2014-05-07T20:14:55Z Steverman: you mean what I wrote?
2014-05-07T20:15:08Z Steverman: (proper-list-ref (list 0 1 2 3 4) 4)
2014-05-07T20:15:25Z Steverman: anything 0...4 raises the error
2014-05-07T20:16:00Z Steverman: up to 5 actually
2014-05-07T20:16:03Z samth: wingo: but that wouldn't have had the proper f-u to the editors of r6
2014-05-07T20:16:06Z Steverman: then 6 says "heyyy"
2014-05-07T20:16:12Z pleek: Steverman: Ok, let me see...
2014-05-07T20:16:18Z wingo: bitter samth is bitter :-)
2014-05-07T20:16:54Z barryfm left #scheme
2014-05-07T20:17:29Z Steverman: pleek, remove test
2014-05-07T20:17:40Z Steverman: between lambda and (xs n)
2014-05-07T20:17:46Z samth: wingo: i'm perhaps less bitter than you might think, since i think that (a) regardless of the reception of r6, becoming "racket" was the right thing for us, and (b) that standardization for scheme has been hopeless for 15 years
2014-05-07T20:17:47Z pleek: Steverman: allready did that
2014-05-07T20:17:54Z pleek: You seem to have a logical error.
2014-05-07T20:18:25Z pleek: (and (integer? n) (> n 0))
2014-05-07T20:18:44Z pleek: That is true, if n is a non-negative integer.
2014-05-07T20:18:55Z pleek: And not zero.
2014-05-07T20:19:06Z pleek: (not (and (integer? n) (> n 0)))
2014-05-07T20:20:56Z pleek: is true for 0
2014-05-07T20:21:08Z pleek: But you need to iterate until n becomes 0.
2014-05-07T20:21:52Z pleek: Try this intead: (not (and (integer? n) (>= n 0)))
2014-05-07T20:22:04Z pleek: I made a >= out of your =.
2014-05-07T20:22:14Z pleek: So 0 does not trigger the error.
2014-05-07T20:22:16Z wingo: samth: certainly agreed on (a) and i only wonder about the number of (b) -- though perhaps i'm being irrational in that regard
2014-05-07T20:22:21Z wingo: i would like for scheme to be a thing.
2014-05-07T20:22:28Z wingo: that doesn't make it a standardizable thing :)
2014-05-07T20:22:36Z Steverman: yes, that works
2014-05-07T20:22:57Z wingo: i also want to work with chicken folks and racket folks -- i don't know what the name is of the thing that we share
2014-05-07T20:23:11Z Steverman: so the next problem is when n is greater than the index?
2014-05-07T20:23:13Z wingo: it's something, i guess it's scheme, but what more to say i don't know
2014-05-07T20:23:20Z samth: wingo: scheme is a thing, and it's a beautiful thing, and you can read about it here: http://library.readscheme.org/page1.html
2014-05-07T20:23:26Z wingo: and then there are the people that harken to the days of pdp-whatever
2014-05-07T20:23:41Z wingo: samth: hehe :)  i guess i mean a going thing, like a concept of the present
2014-05-07T20:23:44Z wingo: a process
2014-05-07T20:23:53Z pleek: Steverman: it that case, you reach the case where (null? xs) is true.
2014-05-07T20:23:53Z wingo: and a community of hackers, rather than an artifact
2014-05-07T20:24:11Z wingo: and certainly our implementations have such a "going thing"
2014-05-07T20:24:17Z Steverman: oh wow I deleted that
2014-05-07T20:24:28Z samth: we share an irc channel?
2014-05-07T20:24:30Z wingo: but what we share with scheme-reports.org... i dunno, a mailing list i guess
2014-05-07T20:24:45Z wingo: sometimes, yes :)
2014-05-07T20:25:19Z sroy quit (Quit: Quitte)
2014-05-07T20:25:23Z samth: if the rest of y'all wrote papers we could share a workshop ;)
2014-05-07T20:25:29Z wingo: when i get off this VM kick i need to plunder racket for semantics
2014-05-07T20:25:46Z wingo: writing papers is a chore and doesn't pay the bills ;-))
2014-05-07T20:26:00Z samth: whereas guile VM implementation ....
2014-05-07T20:26:07Z wingo: touché!
2014-05-07T20:26:23Z wingo: it's more of a pleasure than writing papers, that's for sure!
2014-05-07T20:26:48Z wingo: and we're always catching up right now.  one day i need to steal your ideas
2014-05-07T20:26:56Z wingo: the contracts checking paper looks really nice!
2014-05-07T20:27:09Z wingo: though using an smt solver is a bit scary :)
2014-05-07T20:27:17Z samth: i wish that it was easier to steal some of guile's vm tricks
2014-05-07T20:27:18Z wingo: and i wonder what non-integer applicability is
2014-05-07T20:27:26Z Steverman: pleek, you mentioned when it was equal to the length of the list
2014-05-07T20:27:28Z samth: smt solvers are scary-good
2014-05-07T20:27:33Z Steverman: how did you see that
2014-05-07T20:27:59Z pleek: When n is equal to the length, it is an error.
2014-05-07T20:28:16Z wingo has nih syndrome pretty bad
2014-05-07T20:28:22Z pleek: I saw that by induction.
2014-05-07T20:28:30Z wingo: where i == implemented
2014-05-07T20:28:48Z samth: and our use of them in that paper is pretty simple -- they have a standard interface
2014-05-07T20:30:04Z Steverman: I see
2014-05-07T20:30:19Z Steverman: |(test (4) 1)
2014-05-07T20:30:21Z Steverman: |(test () 0)
2014-05-07T20:32:36Z Steverman: oooh, I think I have to extend my zero check
2014-05-07T20:36:07Z Steverman: (and (zero? n) (not (null? xs)))
2014-05-07T20:36:09Z Steverman: should do the trick
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2014-05-07T20:48:45Z eli: wingo: re the name, "Revised [R^NRS]" would be nicely meta-is in a way that everyone will miss.
2014-05-07T20:52:06Z samth: wingo: re the chronology, i think if you look at the rrrs-authors archives, you'll see that people didn't agree about what scheme should be even before r5rs
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2014-05-07T20:52:42Z samth: wingo: and i think the choice not to make r5rs a language you could do real work in is what did in scheme
2014-05-07T20:54:05Z wingo: dan freidman used to claim that all he did was in r5rs
2014-05-07T20:54:25Z wingo: but i suspect his is a special case
2014-05-07T20:54:48Z samth: dan doesn't do file i/o or mutation
2014-05-07T20:54:54Z wingo: right
2014-05-07T20:55:12Z wingo: *friedman
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2014-05-07T20:58:24Z samth: wingo: also, dan is unhappy when his programs don't fit on a page
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2014-05-07T21:00:16Z wingo: :)
2014-05-07T21:05:26Z Steverman: so pleek
2014-05-07T21:05:28Z Steverman: my lecturer wrote
2014-05-07T21:05:30Z Steverman: I can't know what you have done, but without a local recursive procedure I doubt you will have the right error messages.
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2014-05-07T21:07:19Z Steverman: maybe it's the issue I'm getting
2014-05-07T21:07:42Z Steverman: I can't get errorf to show the input arguments
2014-05-07T21:08:30Z Steverman: I was testing out of index argument
2014-05-07T21:08:33Z Steverman: Exception in proper-list-ref: index 0 is out of range of for the list ()
2014-05-07T21:08:39Z nycs quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2014-05-07T21:08:59Z Steverman: it should really say index 5 .... list (0 1 2 3 4)
2014-05-07T21:13:39Z pleek: Steverman: Sorry, I had a long call.
2014-05-07T21:14:08Z Steverman: not sure if you can help since you don't know much about errorf
2014-05-07T21:14:53Z pleek: Since I read the bloody manual, I know pretty much everything about it.
2014-05-07T21:14:58Z Steverman: haha
2014-05-07T21:15:32Z pleek: The `f' stand for: Format.
2014-05-07T21:15:56Z pleek: It "formats" a string to become the error message.
2014-05-07T21:16:02Z pleek: Not much to understand here.
2014-05-07T21:16:07Z Steverman: alright
2014-05-07T21:16:14Z Steverman: but I can't fix my error message
2014-05-07T21:16:25Z Steverman: it doesn't take the input arguments
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2014-05-07T21:16:57Z Steverman: rather.. it takes the... mutated version of it?
2014-05-07T21:17:04Z pleek: Quite not.
2014-05-07T21:17:18Z pleek: The signature is (errorf who msg irritant ...)
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2014-05-07T21:17:35Z pleek: At the first try, it seems we missed the `who' argument.
2014-05-07T21:18:30Z pleek: What it does is simply replace the ~s by the printed representation of the next argument.
2014-05-07T21:19:54Z Steverman: hm
2014-05-07T21:20:05Z pleek: Has your current version changed until the last paste?
2014-05-07T21:20:15Z Steverman: a little bit
2014-05-07T21:20:29Z pleek: Please give it again.
2014-05-07T21:20:49Z Steverman: http://pastebin.com/raw.php?i=wjCTTEdr
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2014-05-07T21:26:40Z pleek: http://codepad.org/phE5ulnD
2014-05-07T21:27:01Z pleek: Seems to run good, in principle.
2014-05-07T21:27:16Z pleek: So only the errorf procedure seems to be the problem.
2014-05-07T21:28:39Z pleek: Steverman: I fear that I need more information.
2014-05-07T21:28:58Z Steverman: okay
2014-05-07T21:29:07Z pleek: What behaivor do you observe, and does it differ from your expectations?
2014-05-07T21:29:07Z Steverman: I have another question..
2014-05-07T21:29:15Z Steverman: oh yeah
2014-05-07T21:29:17Z Steverman: it does
2014-05-07T21:29:23Z Steverman: uhm
2014-05-07T21:29:25Z Steverman: 1 sec
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2014-05-07T21:30:05Z Steverman: this is the original
2014-05-07T21:30:07Z Steverman: Exception in list-ref: index 5 is out of range for list (0 1 2 3 4)
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2014-05-07T21:30:09Z Steverman: Type (debug) to enter the debugger.
2014-05-07T21:30:11Z Steverman: > (list-ref '(0 1 2 3 4) 5)
2014-05-07T21:30:20Z pleek: Well, that is true.
2014-05-07T21:30:28Z pleek: This list has length 5.
2014-05-07T21:30:37Z pleek: So valid offsets are: 0, 1, 2, 3, 4
2014-05-07T21:30:44Z pleek: 5 is too big.
2014-05-07T21:30:57Z Steverman: copied the wrong way but it's the same
2014-05-07T21:31:00Z Steverman: alright
2014-05-07T21:31:02Z Steverman: mine goes
2014-05-07T21:31:04Z Steverman: > (proper-list-ref '(0 1 2 3 4) 5)
2014-05-07T21:31:06Z Steverman: Exception in proper-list-ref: index 0 is out of range of for the list ()
2014-05-07T21:31:08Z Steverman: Type (debug) to enter the debugger.
2014-05-07T21:31:12Z Steverman: you see my error?
2014-05-07T21:31:16Z pleek: Yes.
2014-05-07T21:32:45Z Steverman:  should be shared :)
2014-05-07T21:32:51Z Steverman: whoops
2014-05-07T21:32:56Z Steverman: no idea why I pasted that
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2014-05-07T21:37:15Z pleek: Steverman: I think I got your lecturer.
2014-05-07T21:37:19Z pleek: http://codepad.org/nmR7gthw
2014-05-07T21:38:03Z pleek: Please ignore everything above the definition of proper-list-ref, it is just to fake the Chez environment on codepad.org.
2014-05-07T21:38:22Z Steverman: alright
2014-05-07T21:38:27Z pleek: I put a local recursive procedure there, and named it `iter'.
2014-05-07T21:38:50Z pleek: Now we have four names: xs, xs*, n, n*
2014-05-07T21:39:07Z Steverman: so he was right
2014-05-07T21:39:11Z Steverman: okay oaky
2014-05-07T21:39:43Z pleek: The names xs* and n* retain their values along the iteration.
2014-05-07T21:39:55Z pleek: They point to the objects the user passed in.
2014-05-07T21:40:04Z pleek: That makes them nice for generating error messages.
2014-05-07T21:40:28Z pleek: O, in case you wonder:
2014-05-07T21:40:45Z pleek: (define (foo a) b) is the same as (define foo (lambda (a) b))
2014-05-07T21:41:02Z Steverman: so you can make a local procedure like that
2014-05-07T21:41:05Z Steverman: and with letrec
2014-05-07T21:41:10Z pleek: Yes.
2014-05-07T21:41:28Z pleek: Internal definitions and letrec are the same thing.
2014-05-07T21:41:36Z pleek: Except in very esoteric debates.
2014-05-07T21:46:21Z Steverman: holy hell
2014-05-07T21:46:23Z Steverman: I can see it yes
2014-05-07T21:46:32Z pleek: Here is a second version using `letrec':
2014-05-07T21:46:35Z pleek: http://codepad.org/5ZQifbic
2014-05-07T21:46:45Z pleek: The two are really the same.
2014-05-07T21:47:25Z Steverman: alright
2014-05-07T21:47:43Z Steverman: how do I know when to put a code on a new line?
2014-05-07T21:48:08Z Steverman: this is how my lecturer does it
2014-05-07T21:48:11Z Steverman: (letrec ([visit (lambda (v)....
2014-05-07T21:48:17Z Steverman: one line
2014-05-07T21:48:22Z pleek: Thats just a matter of preference.
2014-05-07T21:48:25Z Steverman: and you put (lambda... on a new line
2014-05-07T21:48:26Z Steverman: okay
2014-05-07T21:48:36Z pleek: I put the newline there to save a few spaces in the indentation.
2014-05-07T21:48:51Z pleek: Four to be precise.
2014-05-07T21:48:53Z Steverman: I just want to follow a "standard"
2014-05-07T21:49:01Z pleek: Do what he does.
2014-05-07T21:49:04Z pleek: He seems sensible.
2014-05-07T21:49:36Z Steverman: he's a nice guy
2014-05-07T21:49:42Z Steverman: Oliver Danvy
2014-05-07T21:49:59Z Steverman: I wiki'd him
2014-05-07T21:50:20Z Steverman: Danvy himself is quoted as being "stunned to find my name at the top of the list",
2014-05-07T21:50:59Z Steverman: and apparently "the most thanked person in computer science"
2014-05-07T21:51:46Z pleek: Funny guy.
2014-05-07T21:51:51Z Steverman: ah dang it.. I meant to paste the first line last
2014-05-07T21:52:32Z Steverman: he made me mode CS
2014-05-07T21:52:36Z Steverman: wtf
2014-05-07T21:52:39Z Steverman: he made me love*
2014-05-07T21:53:06Z pleek: His first name seems to spell Olivier
2014-05-07T21:54:06Z Steverman: ah yes, I typoed
2014-05-07T21:54:49Z pleek: But google does not mind small distance typos :)
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2014-05-07T21:58:26Z Steverman: I hate editing the code
2014-05-07T21:58:30Z Steverman: it's a mess
2014-05-07T21:59:04Z turbofail: you need paredit, son
2014-05-07T21:59:33Z Steverman: how what who
2014-05-07T21:59:47Z pleek: http://www.emacswiki.org/emacs/ParEdit
2014-05-07T22:00:02Z Steverman: WHY IS THIS NOT ON BY DEFAULT?! LOL
2014-05-07T22:00:23Z turbofail: it takes some getting used to, but once you do you'll hate not having it
2014-05-07T22:00:29Z pleek: After one decade I still find things that make me ask this question.
2014-05-07T22:00:43Z Steverman: so I have to download this
2014-05-07T22:00:46Z turbofail: i hate not having it for non-lisp languages
2014-05-07T22:01:27Z Steverman: isn't there like a builtin repository
2014-05-07T22:01:29Z Steverman: I think there was
2014-05-07T22:02:11Z pleek: AFAIK there is such a thing in Emacs 24.
2014-05-07T22:02:44Z Steverman: I'm using it
2014-05-07T22:02:47Z Steverman: package-install
2014-05-07T22:02:50Z Steverman: it brings up a list
2014-05-07T22:02:57Z turbofail: i don't think you can get paredit from the default package repository
2014-05-07T22:03:03Z pleek: I fear the day of my emacs update.
2014-05-07T22:03:10Z Steverman: what's marmalade
2014-05-07T22:03:13Z Steverman: user repo?
2014-05-07T22:03:18Z turbofail: (add-to-list 'package-archives '("marmalade" . "http://marmalade-repo.org/packages/"))
2014-05-07T22:03:32Z turbofail: you can get paredit from that one
2014-05-07T22:03:45Z turbofail: or you can just install it manually, paredit's a pretty simple package to get working
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2014-05-07T22:38:57Z Steverman: > (proper-list-ref '(0 1 2 3 4) 5)
2014-05-07T22:38:59Z Steverman: Exception: variable xs is not bound
2014-05-07T22:39:01Z Steverman: sigh
2014-05-07T22:39:57Z pleek: Last time i saw it, it ran...
2014-05-07T22:41:10Z Steverman: hmm
2014-05-07T22:41:12Z Steverman: probably me
2014-05-07T22:41:14Z Steverman: but
2014-05-07T22:41:17Z Steverman: my lecturer said something
2014-05-07T22:41:19Z Steverman: more
2014-05-07T22:41:28Z pleek: If you post it again, I can have a last look.
2014-05-07T22:41:33Z pleek: Then I need some sleep.
2014-05-07T22:41:35Z Steverman: So create a local procedure.  Before calling it, check once and for all that the second argument is a positive integer.
2014-05-07T22:41:37Z Steverman: Then, in the local procedure, test whether the first argument is the empty list, a pair, or something else.
2014-05-07T22:41:51Z pleek: That makes sense.
2014-05-07T22:42:39Z Steverman: so this local procedure is iter
2014-05-07T22:42:45Z pleek: Yes.
2014-05-07T22:42:57Z Steverman: aren't we doing this?
2014-05-07T22:43:01Z pleek: No.
2014-05-07T22:43:08Z pleek: We check nothing before calling iter.
2014-05-07T22:43:39Z pleek: The initial call to iter is the last line.
2014-05-07T22:43:56Z pleek: You need to put another cond there.
2014-05-07T22:44:06Z pleek: If positive -> call iter
2014-05-07T22:44:13Z pleek: If negative -> raise error
2014-05-07T22:44:28Z Steverman: jesus
2014-05-07T22:44:30Z Steverman: okay :D
2014-05-07T22:44:51Z Steverman: I disabled paredit because I want to sleep too
2014-05-07T22:44:56Z pleek: :))
2014-05-07T22:44:58Z Steverman: and just want it to work
2014-05-07T22:45:08Z Steverman: no time to learn paredit :D
2014-05-07T22:46:43Z Steverman: so... make another cond that uses (not (and (integer? n) (>= n 0)
2014-05-07T22:47:00Z pleek: Yes.
2014-05-07T22:47:09Z Steverman: then else the call
2014-05-07T22:47:19Z pleek: Yes.
2014-05-07T22:47:38Z pleek: Or flip the then and else part and remove the `not'.
2014-05-07T22:47:45Z Steverman: it gets more complicated..
2014-05-07T22:47:50Z pleek: Yes.
2014-05-07T22:47:58Z pleek: But not much.
2014-05-07T22:48:10Z pleek: You can remove this clause from the inner loop.
2014-05-07T22:48:13Z Steverman: I can't see where to put that iter call lol
2014-05-07T22:48:16Z Steverman: the last line!?
2014-05-07T22:49:40Z pleek: Do you see the expression (iter xs* n*) ?
2014-05-07T22:49:55Z pleek: I called this the "initial call to iter".
2014-05-07T22:50:33Z Steverman: oh
2014-05-07T22:52:44Z pleek: Somehow like that: http://codepad.org/40gdmI8Z
2014-05-07T22:53:04Z Steverman: yes, I was doing something like that
2014-05-07T22:53:16Z Steverman: or exactly
2014-05-07T22:53:19Z pleek: However, I am tired and have not checked it properly.
2014-05-07T22:54:05Z Steverman: yes, I will go to bed too :)
2014-05-07T22:54:12Z pleek: But it should work.
2014-05-07T22:55:12Z Steverman: I have  a parenthesis error
2014-05-07T22:55:15Z Steverman: too tired too look for it
2014-05-07T22:55:24Z pleek: Let Emacs do it
2014-05-07T22:55:28Z pleek: Tomorrow.
2014-05-07T22:55:37Z pleek: By paren highlighting and auto indent.
2014-05-07T22:56:01Z Steverman: the problem is
2014-05-07T22:56:04Z Steverman: the indent looks fine
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2014-05-07T22:57:20Z pleek: I will leave that up to you :)
2014-05-07T22:57:41Z turbofail: the paren-navigation commands are also helpful
2014-05-07T22:57:51Z turbofail: though they're more useful with paredit
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2014-05-07T22:58:40Z Steverman: I wish I had the time to go through paredit tutorial
2014-05-07T23:02:28Z Steverman: I think found it
2014-05-07T23:04:30Z pleek: Good luck
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2014-05-07T23:04:59Z Steverman: I think I wlll just go to bed lol
2014-05-07T23:05:17Z Steverman: night
2014-05-07T23:05:20Z Steverman: nn
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2014-05-08T00:36:01Z kvda: how come most schemes implementations don't come with "atom?"
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2014-05-08T00:54:02Z pjb: kvda: because it's not in the r5rs standard.
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2014-05-08T00:54:26Z pjb: Not that there's no cons? either.  For some reason, scheme tries to break old lisp code.
2014-05-08T00:54:47Z kvda: what's the reasoning behind it do you know?
2014-05-08T00:54:56Z pjb: On the other hand, it's not too hard to define your own: (define cons? pair?) (define (atom?  x) (not (cons? x)))
2014-05-08T00:54:58Z kvda: to keep things 'minimal'?
2014-05-08T00:55:16Z pjb: Well, have a look at r7rs (small+big).
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2014-05-08T00:56:01Z kvda: small is like r5rs right? having a look now.. thanks :)
2014-05-08T00:56:25Z pjb: But I guess we can qualify it of success, given the number of scheme implementations and the ease with which schemes are implemented in various environment (javascript, java, whatcha, macallit, etc).
2014-05-08T00:56:35Z pjb: Indeed.
2014-05-08T00:58:03Z pjb: Also, scheme being a pedagogical language, I assume that avoiding atom? in the language avoids thorny questions such as: why is it called atom? since there are several slots in a vector (or several characters in a string, etc).
2014-05-08T00:58:36Z pjb: One less operator, one less question, less work for teachers! :-)
2014-05-08T00:59:03Z pjb: Or am I just too cynical?
2014-05-08T00:59:25Z kvda: No your answer makes sense to me.
2014-05-08T01:00:10Z pjb: Personnaly, I like the historical strates ("legacy") in Common Lisp.
2014-05-08T01:01:02Z nisstyre: pjb: well there's the definition of atom as (compose not pair?) right?
2014-05-08T01:02:07Z pjb: Yes, that's its definition.
2014-05-08T01:02:38Z pjb: When ATOM was invented, the only atoms were symbols, integers (fixnums) and floating point numbers.
2014-05-08T01:03:01Z pjb: Characters and strings were represented by symbols.
2014-05-08T01:03:15Z pjb: There were no arrays.
2014-05-08T01:03:26Z pjb: Oh, and functions. Functions were already first class objects.
2014-05-08T01:03:41Z pjb: So those objects were really atomic.
2014-05-08T01:04:10Z pjb: But then we added vectors arrays strings structures objects hash-tables, etc.  A lot of compound objects.
2014-05-08T01:06:32Z kvda: a more comprehensive atom? would have to check for all those objects right?
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2014-05-08T01:15:44Z nisstyre: kvda: yes
2014-05-08T01:15:54Z nisstyre: well, I would expand it
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2014-05-08T01:35:29Z pjb: kvda: being defined as (define (atom? x) (not (pair? x))) it automatically covers all the objects that are not cons cells.
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2014-05-08T01:37:31Z jcowan: hey ho
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2014-05-08T10:51:10Z tyrion-mx: Hello, I am having problems running the mit-scheme repl with slimv (the popup window shows "2 error>" and the vim repl remains empty)
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2014-05-08T10:51:33Z tyrion-mx: someone here is using vim with slimv?
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2014-05-08T12:23:38Z jusss: chicken scheme mzscheme, which is better?
2014-05-08T12:29:22Z pleek: It is very hard to compare scheme implementations by criteria like "better".
2014-05-08T12:29:27Z pleek: What do you want to do with it?
2014-05-08T12:29:40Z pleek: How much experience do you have in Scheme?
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2014-05-08T12:37:41Z jusss: i'm a newbie
2014-05-08T12:38:16Z pleek: mzscheme (which is now named racket) has a beginner-friendly GUI.
2014-05-08T12:38:25Z pleek: Dunno if chicken has its own GUI.
2014-05-08T12:38:47Z Steverman: :)
2014-05-08T12:38:48Z pleek: You will want a decent editing environment for Scheme.
2014-05-08T12:38:52Z pleek: That could be Emacs, too.
2014-05-08T12:39:17Z pleek: If you are not familiar with an Emacs-like editor, I would recommend Racket for the start.
2014-05-08T12:39:41Z pleek: But you will need to set it to standard scheme mode.
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2014-05-08T12:40:58Z jusss: i haven't use emacs
2014-05-08T12:42:01Z pleek: You most likely will use it some day if you use Scheme for some time.
2014-05-08T12:42:27Z jusss: i see
2014-05-08T12:42:44Z Steverman: pleek, do you still have the codepad from yesterday?
2014-05-08T12:43:00Z pleek: Hello Steverman!
2014-05-08T12:43:04Z pleek: I do not.
2014-05-08T12:43:13Z pleek: But there are public logs of this channel.
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2014-05-08T12:43:21Z pleek: http://ccl.clozure.com/irc-logs/scheme/
2014-05-08T12:43:51Z pleek: http://ccl.clozure.com/irc-logs/scheme/scheme-2014-05.txt
2014-05-08T12:49:05Z Steverman: oh, it's just that I can take (0 10 100 . 1000)
2014-05-08T12:51:26Z pleek: What do you mean by that?
2014-05-08T12:51:36Z Steverman: > (Proper-list-ref '(0 1 2 3 4 . 5) 1)
2014-05-08T12:51:41Z Steverman: gives 1
2014-05-08T12:51:48Z pleek: And you want an error?
2014-05-08T12:51:50Z Steverman: until I actually try to get the pair
2014-05-08T12:51:52Z Steverman: yeah
2014-05-08T12:52:21Z Steverman: do I just put the check under exact nonnegative interger check?
2014-05-08T12:52:23Z pleek: You can be lazy and use `list?'.  It is only true for proper lists.
2014-05-08T12:52:53Z pleek: Put it into the outer cond, where you test if `n' is negative.
2014-05-08T12:53:53Z Steverman: alright, my thoughts too.. but I'm still trying to grasp this let/letrec procedure if you can call it that
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2014-05-08T12:54:18Z pleek: You mean the "local" procedure `iter'?
2014-05-08T12:54:41Z Steverman: yes
2014-05-08T12:54:46Z Steverman: now that it has 2 conditions
2014-05-08T12:55:05Z Steverman: so the outer one is before calling it
2014-05-08T12:55:08Z pleek: Does the `letrec' confuse you?
2014-05-08T12:55:16Z Steverman: yes
2014-05-08T12:55:40Z pleek: If you changed it to `let', you would get an error: that the name `iter' is not defined.
2014-05-08T12:55:57Z pleek: Since the procedure `iter' calls itself.
2014-05-08T12:56:24Z pleek: That is why you need `letrec' (or nested `define').
2014-05-08T12:57:03Z Steverman: hmm
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2014-05-08T12:57:16Z Steverman: I think I saw a graphic explaination
2014-05-08T12:57:18Z Steverman: with boxes
2014-05-08T12:58:21Z pleek: Here is the classic even?/odd? example: http://codepad.org/csQ1BarN
2014-05-08T12:58:31Z pleek: Using `letrec'.
2014-05-08T12:58:51Z pleek: It is a simple example.
2014-05-08T12:59:00Z pleek: What happens if you used `let' instead here?
2014-05-08T12:59:51Z Steverman: one sec
2014-05-08T12:59:57Z pleek: Do not hurry.
2014-05-08T13:00:46Z cleatoma: We get an error in the definition of is-even, because is-odd does not exist at that point.
2014-05-08T13:01:14Z pleek: To be precise, we get that error when `es-even?' is called the first time.
2014-05-08T13:01:37Z lolcow quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2014-05-08T13:01:39Z cleatoma: Oh yes
2014-05-08T13:01:43Z pleek: In this example, none of the two procedures is recursive.
2014-05-08T13:01:53Z pleek: They are "mutually" recurse, calling each other.
2014-05-08T13:02:16Z pleek: The point is: in the body of both lambda forms, the names need to be bound.
2014-05-08T13:02:22Z pleek: `let' does not do that.
2014-05-08T13:02:29Z pleek: But `letrec' does.
2014-05-08T13:03:30Z Steverman: aha
2014-05-08T13:03:52Z mario-goulart: jusss: if you are learning scheme, any of chicken or racket will do. Racket is a language implementation that actually supports multiple languages (including scheme).  That may be a bit confusing when you are starting to learn things. Chicken is just scheme.  Racket provides a nice graphical environment for beginners, chicken doesn't.
2014-05-08T13:04:21Z Steverman: back to the problem
2014-05-08T13:04:33Z Steverman: ?list doesn't exist
2014-05-08T13:04:36Z Steverman: list?*
2014-05-08T13:04:41Z Steverman: wait
2014-05-08T13:04:43Z Steverman: lol
2014-05-08T13:04:46Z Steverman: I actually typed ?list
2014-05-08T13:04:46Z pleek: :)
2014-05-08T13:05:27Z pleek: See http://www.schemers.org/Documents/Standards/R5RS/HTML/r5rs-Z-H-9.html#%_idx_414
2014-05-08T13:05:28Z rudybot: http://tinyurl.com/n7sc5f
2014-05-08T13:05:51Z mario-goulart: Steverman: you are taking the prefixed syntax too seriously. :-)
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2014-05-08T13:07:03Z pleek: Steverman: If `letrec' still confuses you, simply ingore that fact for now.
2014-05-08T13:07:17Z pleek: Use it for "local" recursive procedures.
2014-05-08T13:07:23Z Steverman: okay
2014-05-08T13:07:49Z pleek: You need concepts we did not yet introduce to explain it concisly.
2014-05-08T13:08:05Z Steverman: me and my friends jumped to another exercise and will return to it later
2014-05-08T13:08:19Z Steverman: that means exercise 9, where you define set-union
2014-05-08T13:08:37Z pleek: That is in Dybvig's dissertation.
2014-05-08T13:08:51Z Steverman: (set-union '(0 1 2) '(3 4 5))
2014-05-08T13:08:55Z pleek: (Dybvig is your implementor)
2014-05-08T13:09:05Z Steverman: should give (0 1 2 3 4 5)
2014-05-08T13:09:08Z Steverman: okay
2014-05-08T13:09:12Z pleek: Makes sense.
2014-05-08T13:09:54Z pleek: You see: you cannot simply use `append', because you need to remove duplicates.
2014-05-08T13:10:17Z pleek: You could use `append', if you had a procedure `remove-duplicates' that does exactly that.
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2014-05-08T13:10:36Z Steverman: we wrote a little bit on the whiteboard on how it should be implemented
2014-05-08T13:10:41Z Steverman: http://users-cs.au.dk/danvy/dProgSprog/Lecture-notes/week-18.html#exercise-9
2014-05-08T13:10:42Z rudybot: http://tinyurl.com/nbtn8jh
2014-05-08T13:10:44Z Steverman: this is the exercise
2014-05-08T13:11:11Z pleek: www.cs.indiana.edu/~dyb/papers/3imp.pdf
2014-05-08T13:11:23Z pleek: You can find the solution in there AFAIK.
2014-05-08T13:12:14Z Natch_j is now known as Natch
2014-05-08T13:12:54Z Steverman: like 5 lines lol
2014-05-08T13:13:00Z Steverman: page 93
2014-05-08T13:13:21Z pleek: :)
2014-05-08T13:14:05Z pleek: I would not have pointed this to you if this wasn't worth a read.
2014-05-08T13:14:14Z pleek: Save it for later use.
2014-05-08T13:14:18Z Steverman: okay :)
2014-05-08T13:18:26Z pleek: Instead of `set-member?', you could use the builtin `memq'.
2014-05-08T13:18:53Z pleek: Or `memv' or `member'.
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2014-05-08T13:47:53Z Steverman: pleek:
2014-05-08T13:47:55Z Steverman: > (set-union '(a b c d) '(e f g h))
2014-05-08T13:47:57Z Steverman: (d c b a e f g h)
2014-05-08T13:48:02Z Steverman: I know the order doesn't matter
2014-05-08T13:48:07Z Steverman: but..
2014-05-08T13:48:12Z vanila: use append :)
2014-05-08T13:48:21Z Steverman: not allowed to
2014-05-08T13:48:36Z pleek: vanila: In addition, he needs to remove duplicates.
2014-05-08T13:49:00Z Steverman: you should only use cons to construct the result.
2014-05-08T13:49:26Z Steverman: my friend next to me works
2014-05-08T13:49:45Z pleek: Steverman: What's your problem with the result (d c b a e f g h) ?
2014-05-08T13:50:12Z Steverman: I want to simulate this result
2014-05-08T13:50:13Z Steverman: > (set-union '(a b c d) '(e f g h))
2014-05-08T13:50:15Z Steverman: (a b c d e f g h)
2014-05-08T13:50:33Z pleek: You could use `reverse' on the first list.
2014-05-08T13:50:48Z pleek: Before everything else.
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2014-05-08T13:57:07Z Steverman: http://pastebin.com/raw.php?i=RZP9U1F9
2014-05-08T13:57:09Z Steverman: here
2014-05-08T13:57:11Z Steverman: 2 versions
2014-05-08T13:57:50Z vanila: (define (set-union s1 s2) (insertion-sort s1 (insertion-sort s2 '()))
2014-05-08T13:58:37Z pleek: Steverman: It does not matter if ys_init is ().
2014-05-08T13:58:48Z b4283 quit (Quit: Leaving)
2014-05-08T13:59:30Z samth: wingo: it seems that the editor seeks to conjure up a scheme community by force of mailing list participation
2014-05-08T14:00:15Z oleo: does special form means primitive ?
2014-05-08T14:00:23Z oleo: mean*
2014-05-08T14:00:37Z samth: oleo: no, it means something like `if` that isn't a function
2014-05-08T14:01:30Z offby1: oleo: it means "a form that rides the short bus"
2014-05-08T14:01:52Z oleo: a macro it is not.....
2014-05-08T14:02:00Z oleo: a primitive it is not....
2014-05-08T14:02:09Z oleo: a predicate it is not ?
2014-05-08T14:02:41Z pleek: oleo: It is hard to distinguish between special forms and macros.
2014-05-08T14:02:49Z oleo: yes
2014-05-08T14:02:56Z pleek: oleo: They both are `syntax'.
2014-05-08T14:03:13Z oleo: and everytime when i ask if it is a macro in implementation level i get answer "no" back...
2014-05-08T14:03:21Z Steverman: hmm what do you suggest
2014-05-08T14:03:31Z pleek: We should not call "core" special form a macro.
2014-05-08T14:03:40Z pleek: Steverman: the second version.
2014-05-08T14:03:49Z pleek: If it works, it did not check it.
2014-05-08T14:04:15Z pleek: oleo: However, every implementations chooses its own set of "core" forms.
2014-05-08T14:04:40Z oleo: i'm aware of, yep
2014-05-08T14:04:51Z pleek: That blurres this distinction.
2014-05-08T14:04:58Z pleek: It's just words.
2014-05-08T14:05:09Z Steverman: aha
2014-05-08T14:05:12Z Steverman: let me grab some food
2014-05-08T14:05:14Z Steverman: brb
2014-05-08T14:05:18Z Steverman: will timeout
2014-05-08T14:05:52Z pleek: Steverman: Sorry, I made mistake.
2014-05-08T14:06:04Z pleek: Steverman: I would prefer the shorter one, which is the first.
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2014-05-08T14:07:51Z pleek: oleo: AFAIK, the word "macro" does not occur in R5RS.
2014-05-08T14:07:56Z pleek: I may be wrong, however.
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2014-05-08T14:09:14Z oleo: yes not in scheme.....maybe
2014-05-08T14:09:24Z oleo: i didn't have a look in r5rs or later ones yet
2014-05-08T14:09:49Z Steverman quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
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2014-05-08T14:11:54Z pleek: The standard tends to call such things "syntactic extensions" or so.
2014-05-08T14:14:13Z taylanub: pleek: RnRS do use the term "macro"
2014-05-08T14:15:45Z taylanub: Section 4.3 is titled "macros" in R5RS and R7RS, 9.2 in R6RS
2014-05-08T14:18:00Z pleek: taylanub: You are right!
2014-05-08T14:18:02Z pleek: Sorry.
2014-05-08T14:18:20Z pleek: R5RS mentions "macro" 50 times.
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2014-05-08T14:34:52Z Steverman: pleek, so the second version can be more simplified
2014-05-08T14:40:45Z samth: wingo: i'm torn between wanting to respond to jcowan_ on the scheme-reports list, wanting you to and watching with popcorn, or caring about something worthwhile
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2014-05-08T14:42:09Z pleek: Steverman: If they both satify your tests, choose the simpler one.
2014-05-08T14:42:57Z Steverman: it's just that the order is more systematic with the second version
2014-05-08T14:43:10Z Steverman: but you mentioned someting about empty list
2014-05-08T14:44:24Z pleek: I think you should not take (cdr ys).
2014-05-08T14:44:47Z pleek: O wait.
2014-05-08T14:44:51Z pleek: That was nonsense.
2014-05-08T14:44:54Z jcowan_: samth: There's something a little ironic about a major Scheme implementer complaining that there are no major Scheme implementers on the list, don't you think?
2014-05-08T14:45:00Z jcowan_ is now known as jcowan
2014-05-08T14:45:06Z samth: jcowan: no
2014-05-08T14:46:05Z samth: a major scheme implementer pointed out that the standards process, which is purporting to define a large practical language, has no input from many of the implementers of large practicals versions of Scheme
2014-05-08T14:46:33Z samth: and that thus it can't produce anything reasonably called a "standard"
2014-05-08T14:46:46Z samth: wingo's participation wouldn't change that
2014-05-08T14:47:11Z jcowan: So you exclude Guile from the list of large practical implementations?
2014-05-08T14:47:23Z samth: jcowan: no, that's not what i said
2014-05-08T14:47:36Z samth: i said "many" not "any"
2014-05-08T14:47:49Z pleek: Steverman: Your second version is allright.
2014-05-08T14:47:57Z Steverman: oh okay
2014-05-08T14:47:58Z pleek: Example: http://codepad.org/Dy93pqJg
2014-05-08T14:48:04Z pleek: I put a third version there.
2014-05-08T14:48:46Z Steverman: heh, that's a simple solution
2014-05-08T14:48:57Z Steverman: that I can put over my first one
2014-05-08T14:52:15Z mario-goulart: jcowan: you should point a gun to the quiet implementors and make them speak!
2014-05-08T14:54:02Z jcowan: Sounds like a plan, yes.
2014-05-08T14:54:45Z jcowan: But first I'd have to point a gun at them to make them listen.  Although you could say that pointing a gun at people either tends to make them listen or reduces them to gibbering hysteria.
2014-05-08T14:58:40Z pleek: Steverman: Update: I think that no version works right: http://codepad.org/WqJsE1Ichttp://codepad.org/WqJsE1Ic
2014-05-08T14:58:51Z pleek: They all have duplicate `a'.  Why?
2014-05-08T15:00:02Z jcowan: In any case, wingo mentioned the implementers of Chez, Larceny, Gambit, and a certain post-Scheme programming language.  All of which have implemented numbers and characters as strong as my strongest proposal, so they would need no actions at all to conform in this respect.
2014-05-08T15:00:53Z Steverman: right
2014-05-08T15:00:55Z Steverman: hmm
2014-05-08T15:01:37Z pleek: Steverman: You need to look if the first item in `xs' does occur in `ys'.
2014-05-08T15:01:50Z pleek: If it does, you must not cons it onto the result.
2014-05-08T15:01:54Z pleek: As it is allready there.
2014-05-08T15:05:44Z Steverman: I defined normalize earlier
2014-05-08T15:06:05Z pleek: Does normalize remove the duplicates?
2014-05-08T15:06:08Z Steverman: yes
2014-05-08T15:06:13Z pleek: Then you are fine.
2014-05-08T15:06:22Z Steverman: but I need to call it then :)
2014-05-08T15:06:28Z pleek: Indeed.
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2014-05-08T15:08:06Z Steverman: http://codepad.org/TGcJn12i
2014-05-08T15:08:12Z Steverman: not sure how to run inside that
2014-05-08T15:09:18Z pleek: Use (write ...) to make the program do some output.
2014-05-08T15:09:25Z Steverman: okay
2014-05-08T15:09:27Z pleek: Like here: http://codepad.org/8ZN3Qqgj
2014-05-08T15:09:29Z Steverman: > (set-union2 '(a b c d e) '(d e f g h))
2014-05-08T15:09:31Z Steverman: (a b c d e f g h)
2014-05-08T15:09:32Z pleek: It seems to work.
2014-05-08T15:11:23Z pleek: Steverman: Is your procedure `set-normalize' iterative (tail recursive) or not?
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2014-05-08T15:17:15Z Steverman: I believe not
2014-05-08T15:17:25Z pleek: That is right.
2014-05-08T15:17:45Z Steverman: haven't put much thought into it
2014-05-08T15:17:57Z pleek: That is quite good!
2014-05-08T15:18:06Z Steverman: why so
2014-05-08T15:18:08Z pleek: It means that you learn to think this way.
2014-05-08T15:18:30Z pleek: Most of the time, it does not matter if you are tail revursive or not.
2014-05-08T15:18:40Z pleek: But you need to be able to see if you are.
2014-05-08T15:19:13Z Steverman: but tail recursion is usually better performance wise I think
2014-05-08T15:19:28Z pleek: Not neccessary.
2014-05-08T15:19:31Z Steverman: I can only think of fibonacci
2014-05-08T15:19:46Z pleek: That's a bad example.
2014-05-08T15:19:58Z pleek: The `naive' fibonacci calls itself twice.
2014-05-08T15:20:17Z pleek: That doubles the time for increasing the argument by one.
2014-05-08T15:20:27Z pleek: That is exponential grow.
2014-05-08T15:20:37Z Steverman: I wrote it the naive way
2014-05-08T15:20:39Z Steverman: last week
2014-05-08T15:20:43Z pleek: This exponential grow has nothing to do with the kind of recursion you use.
2014-05-08T15:21:02Z pleek: If you could make it call itself only once, you get linear growth.
2014-05-08T15:21:08Z bjz_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2014-05-08T15:21:11Z pleek: Which you can do, of course.
2014-05-08T15:21:19Z amgarching quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2014-05-08T15:21:48Z pleek: Back to `set-normalize':
2014-05-08T15:21:58Z pleek: It is partly tail recursive.
2014-05-08T15:22:01Z pleek: http://codepad.org/k3SL24V6
2014-05-08T15:22:18Z pleek: When it encounters a duplicate, it tail-calls itself.
2014-05-08T15:22:45Z tenq is now known as tenq|out
2014-05-08T15:22:54Z pleek: I used Gambit's tracer to draw this.
2014-05-08T15:23:11Z pleek: Every vertical line is one level of non-tail-recursion.
2014-05-08T15:24:34Z pleek: The critical thing about tail recursion is:
2014-05-08T15:24:46Z pleek: You can tail-call forever, without running out of space.
2014-05-08T15:25:10Z pleek: When doing enough non-tail-calls, you will run out of space.
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2014-05-08T15:26:35Z Steverman: aha
2014-05-08T15:26:48Z Steverman: like
2014-05-08T15:26:49Z pleek: :)
2014-05-08T15:26:51Z Steverman: stack overflow?
2014-05-08T15:26:59Z pleek: Exactly that.
2014-05-08T15:27:08Z DrDuck:  mornin folks
2014-05-08T15:27:17Z Steverman: if I remember my computer architecture class :)
2014-05-08T15:27:26Z pleek: I did not call it "stack overflow", because you don't neccessarily need a stack to evaluate an expression.
2014-05-08T15:27:46Z pleek: DrDuck: Hi
2014-05-08T15:28:06Z jcowan: In most programming languages you push stack to call a procedure.  In Scheme you push stack only to evaluate complex arguments of procedures.  Therefore, procedure call is just GOTO (with renaming of variables)
2014-05-08T15:28:27Z Steverman: wrote fibonacci in x86_64
2014-05-08T15:28:37Z Steverman: iteratively / recursively
2014-05-08T15:28:42Z Steverman: compared them both
2014-05-08T15:28:54Z Steverman: naive fibonacci sequence
2014-05-08T15:28:54Z vanila: haha
2014-05-08T15:29:01Z vanila: That's a good way to make people hate recursion!
2014-05-08T15:29:18Z pleek: Indeed!
2014-05-08T15:29:21Z Steverman: I KNOW
2014-05-08T15:29:26Z Steverman: let me tell you this
2014-05-08T15:29:33Z pleek: But the problem really is not about recursion at all.
2014-05-08T15:29:37Z Steverman: I went to a lecture about recusion
2014-05-08T15:29:39Z Steverman: and how nice it is
2014-05-08T15:30:00Z jcowan: Recursion: see recursion.  See also tail recursion.
2014-05-08T15:30:11Z jcowan: Tail recursion:  If you aren't sick of it already, see tail recursion.
2014-05-08T15:30:32Z pleek: Thats from the jargon file, is it?
2014-05-08T15:30:41Z jcowan: Indeed.
2014-05-08T15:30:44Z Steverman: then in my class they made me write the naive fibonacci sequence iteratively and recursively
2014-05-08T15:31:00Z Steverman: I was like... but I thought recursion was nice and all
2014-05-08T15:31:38Z pleek: Recursion is nice.
2014-05-08T15:31:53Z pleek: Read as: Languages without proper tail recursion are evil.
2014-05-08T15:32:21Z jcowan: Of course, some languages with PTR are evil too.
2014-05-08T15:32:30Z jcowan: In short: heads off all around but us!
2014-05-08T15:32:38Z vanila: lol
2014-05-08T15:32:53Z vanila: go language doesn't tail recursion
2014-05-08T15:32:56Z Steverman: I love how concise it is
2014-05-08T15:32:58Z pleek: But ML does.
2014-05-08T15:33:02Z pleek: And Haskell.
2014-05-08T15:33:04Z vanila: but I think they had some weird justification for it
2014-05-08T15:33:09Z pleek: And all their descendents.
2014-05-08T15:33:37Z vanila: python has no tail recursion but it should od
2014-05-08T15:33:38Z jcowan: ML is semi-evil, it has mandatory static types.  Haskell is almost completely evil: it has laziness.
2014-05-08T15:34:02Z vanila: I was in #haskell and a person was saying their program was going really badly slow
2014-05-08T15:34:06Z vanila: and the problem was lazyness
2014-05-08T15:34:10Z jcowan: The usual argument (which is BS) is that you can't debug tail-recursive code and that stack traces don't mean anything.
2014-05-08T15:34:11Z pleek: jcowan: I can live with static types quite well.
2014-05-08T15:34:17Z pleek: But not without problem tail recursion.
2014-05-08T15:34:17Z vanila: the fix was to use a strict thing, to make it work
2014-05-08T15:34:25Z vanila: so I am wondering if lazyness is ba ://
2014-05-08T15:34:26Z vanila: bad
2014-05-08T15:34:51Z pleek: vanila: Lazyness can be a beast.  However, this can happen in scheme too.
2014-05-08T15:34:52Z jcowan: Even Haskellites don't claim laziness as a virtue per se; they claim it keeps them honest about having no side effects.
2014-05-08T15:35:08Z pleek: Steverman: http://mitpress.mit.edu/sicp/full-text/book/ch1-Z-G-13.gif
2014-05-08T15:35:22Z pleek: The growth of the naive fibonacci process.
2014-05-08T15:35:43Z pleek: It is clearly wasteful, since it does the same things many times.
2014-05-08T15:35:53Z Steverman: yes
2014-05-08T15:35:59Z pleek: However, you can write this naive process with or without recursion.
2014-05-08T15:36:00Z Steverman: I had to write about that :)
2014-05-08T15:36:19Z pleek: You could, for instance, use a stack to emulate the recursion.
2014-05-08T15:36:28Z Steverman: but it's more mathmatically consise
2014-05-08T15:36:52Z Steverman: concise*
2014-05-08T15:36:54Z pleek: That might be true of the expression we all have in mind.
2014-05-08T15:37:01Z pleek: But this is just an image :)
2014-05-08T15:37:23Z pleek: You can write a very dirty expression that evolves this process, too.
2014-05-08T15:37:57Z Steverman: I guess
2014-05-08T15:38:32Z pleek: About the laziness question:
2014-05-08T15:38:50Z pleek: You have the same problems when using SRFI 40 and SRFI 41.
2014-05-08T15:38:58Z pleek: As they implement lazi streams.
2014-05-08T15:39:05Z pleek: That is: Haskell lists.
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2014-05-08T15:44:37Z Steverman: remind me to learn paredit lol
2014-05-08T15:45:45Z pleek: Be calm, learning Emacs takes years.
2014-05-08T15:46:12Z jcowan: Sure, but in Scheme, lazy lists are not the default.  Making laziness the default infects the whole system with unpredictable (though theoretically unimpeachable) behavior.
2014-05-08T15:46:21Z DrDuck: i did not like the fib golden ratio problem in sicp :|
2014-05-08T15:46:34Z pleek: DrDuck: Why not?
2014-05-08T15:46:44Z taylanub is reading R6RS ... notices how small it really is
2014-05-08T15:46:55Z DrDuck: just wasn't a fan, but i did it though
2014-05-08T15:47:12Z jcowan: Well, by any standards but Scheme's, yes.  300 pp. is still a lot.
2014-05-08T15:47:26Z DrDuck: i wasn't mathematically inclined enough to be confident with that problem
2014-05-08T15:47:27Z pleek: One should not ignore the fact that some programs are easier to write in a lazy style.
2014-05-08T15:47:50Z jcowan: Fortunately the SRFI 41 implementation is quite portable.
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2014-05-08T15:48:01Z pleek: I found it rather cool how they calculated pi in SICP.
2014-05-08T15:48:10Z taylanub: oh, the base document is bigger than the libraries document .. that's unexpected.
2014-05-08T15:48:30Z taylanub drank the anti-R6RS kool-aid long ago, trying to puke it out now
2014-05-08T15:49:20Z pleek: Is R7RS small ratified?
2014-05-08T15:50:05Z sethalves: yes
2014-05-08T15:50:20Z pleek: So we may forget about R6RS if we like.
2014-05-08T15:50:50Z DrDuck: i wonder if a binary mobile as sicp is describing is just another name for a binary tree. a weighted binary tree?
2014-05-08T15:51:02Z sethalves: r6rs has plenty of good stuff in it.  i think a lot of that stuff will be in r7rs-large in some form or another
2014-05-08T15:51:28Z pleek: sethalves: O yes, without a doubt.
2014-05-08T15:51:36Z pleek: But i didn't like it anyway.
2014-05-08T15:51:43Z pleek: For the well known reasons.
2014-05-08T15:51:54Z sethalves: you hate transcoders?!
2014-05-08T15:51:54Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2014-05-08T15:52:31Z pleek: Nobody supports it!
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2014-05-08T15:52:43Z Steverman: so to backtrack a little
2014-05-08T15:52:49Z Steverman: a while back I emulated list-ref
2014-05-08T15:52:58Z Steverman: now I have to emulate -tail and -head
2014-05-08T15:53:25Z pleek: If you do emulate it perfectly, better say you "implemented" it.
2014-05-08T15:53:54Z pleek: Your list-ref goes down the list until `n' is zero.
2014-05-08T15:54:01Z pleek: The it returns the car of the list.
2014-05-08T15:54:11Z jusss: help!  http://paste.ubuntu.com/7416756/
2014-05-08T15:54:12Z pleek: Your list-tail does down the list until `n' is zero.
2014-05-08T15:54:16Z pleek: Then it returns the list.
2014-05-08T15:54:29Z Steverman: so almost the same
2014-05-08T15:54:39Z pleek: Yes.
2014-05-08T15:54:49Z pleek: Just delete a little bit and you are done.
2014-05-08T15:55:27Z pleek: jusss: What is your problem?
2014-05-08T15:55:56Z jusss: pleek: unbound variable :b
2014-05-08T15:56:47Z pleek: Steverman: And `list-head' is really just car.  Maybe with error handling.
2014-05-08T15:57:08Z Steverman: alright
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2014-05-08T15:58:00Z pleek: jusss: In the body of the lambda expression (lambda (n) ...)
2014-05-08T15:58:07Z pleek: You mention `b'.
2014-05-08T15:58:14Z pleek: But the name `b' is not bound there.
2014-05-08T15:58:39Z pleek: You could use `letrec' instead, example:
2014-05-08T15:59:07Z jusss: pleek: use letrec, it normal, thx
2014-05-08T15:59:17Z pleek: http://codepad.org/NZA1emuP
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2014-05-08T15:59:42Z pleek: Better avoid binding other things than procedures with `letrec' until you understand in deeply.
2014-05-08T16:02:01Z jusss: i see
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2014-05-08T16:16:13Z Steverman: pleek, I can only think of using (cons..) for this
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2014-05-08T16:16:18Z Steverman: with head
2014-05-08T16:16:37Z pleek: Can you give me an example?
2014-05-08T16:17:12Z Steverman: uh 1 sec
2014-05-08T16:17:53Z Steverman: (cons (car xs) (visit (cdr x) (1- n)))
2014-05-08T16:17:55Z Steverman: or something
2014-05-08T16:17:59Z Steverman: like that
2014-05-08T16:18:15Z pleek: For list-head or list-tail?
2014-05-08T16:18:19Z Steverman: head
2014-05-08T16:18:42Z pleek: list-head does not need a "local" procedure.
2014-05-08T16:18:55Z jusss: (values 'a 'b) dont return a b, #[compiled-closure 12 ("global" #x3b) #x5e #x2716182 #x3419220], mit/gun scheme
2014-05-08T16:19:00Z pleek: (If I understoob everything correctly)
2014-05-08T16:19:41Z jusss: it shouldnt return a b?
2014-05-08T16:20:08Z Steverman: pleek, but it's for the error checks
2014-05-08T16:20:09Z pleek: Steverman: Like this: http://codepad.org/92mQhabk
2014-05-08T16:20:20Z pleek: Ahh.
2014-05-08T16:20:26Z pleek: You do not want to use list?.
2014-05-08T16:20:33Z pleek: When I remind correctly.
2014-05-08T16:21:05Z pleek: Maybe you should implement your own list? predicate.
2014-05-08T16:21:20Z pleek: It is quite useful to rule out improper lists.
2014-05-08T16:21:36Z pleek: Since list-head does not need any iteration at all beside for the error check.
2014-05-08T16:21:59Z Steverman: yeah, I think I can see that
2014-05-08T16:22:19Z pleek: But it can be a local procedure as well, doesn't matter.
2014-05-08T16:22:25Z Steverman: but I just lazily copied the other two precedures
2014-05-08T16:22:31Z Steverman: edited a bit here and there
2014-05-08T16:22:51Z pleek: jusss: `values' returns something that is not first class.
2014-05-08T16:22:54Z Steverman: well in the case of tail I just removed (car xs) under the zero check
2014-05-08T16:23:00Z Steverman: and put xs
2014-05-08T16:23:17Z pleek: jusss: You need to use let-values or something to get the values out.
2014-05-08T16:23:37Z pleek: Steverman: That is what I would have done.
2014-05-08T16:23:55Z Steverman: and it can't be done with head
2014-05-08T16:24:05Z pleek: Steverman: I an real system, one would propably define list-ref in terms of list-tail.
2014-05-08T16:24:13Z pleek: Steverman: As I suggested yesterday.
2014-05-08T16:25:37Z jusss: pleek: how to get the values out? for example
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2014-05-08T16:26:28Z pleek: (call-with-values (lambda () (values 4 5)) (lambda (a b) b))
2014-05-08T16:26:41Z pleek: That is straigt from R5RS: http://www.schemers.org/Documents/Standards/R5RS/HTML/r5rs-Z-H-9.html#%_idx_572
2014-05-08T16:26:41Z rudybot: http://tinyurl.com/yoye9g
2014-05-08T16:26:46Z pleek: You ask standard questions :)
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2014-05-08T16:28:30Z Steverman: oh, so I kinda just wrote list-ref first before list-tail
2014-05-08T16:28:40Z pleek: I know.
2014-05-08T16:28:54Z pleek: However, your goal is not building a real system.
2014-05-08T16:28:57Z pleek: So never mind.
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2014-05-08T16:33:54Z jim: what's values? and for that matter receive?
2014-05-08T16:35:38Z pleek: For values, see my link above.
2014-05-08T16:35:46Z pleek: For receive, see here: http://srfi.schemers.org/srfi-8/srfi-8.html
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2014-05-08T17:04:12Z Steverman: pleek, in the case of head
2014-05-08T17:04:39Z Steverman: I made it "return" an empty list
2014-05-08T17:04:45Z Steverman: and it works
2014-05-08T17:05:09Z pleek: You mean  (head '())  ==>  '()
2014-05-08T17:05:09Z pleek: ?
2014-05-08T17:05:17Z Steverman: uh no
2014-05-08T17:05:21Z Steverman: as a base case
2014-05-08T17:05:23Z Steverman: when n = 0
2014-05-08T17:05:48Z pleek: Ok, I think I should read your assignment now.
2014-05-08T17:05:56Z pleek: I just skimmed it.
2014-05-08T17:05:59Z pleek: That was a failure.
2014-05-08T17:06:22Z pleek: Your `head' is probably not the same as `car'.
2014-05-08T17:06:31Z Steverman: yes
2014-05-08T17:06:34Z Steverman: I will upload my version
2014-05-08T17:06:36Z Steverman: it works
2014-05-08T17:06:56Z Steverman: http://codepad.org/SP3p4uH8
2014-05-08T17:07:06Z Steverman: almost the same as proper-list-ref
2014-05-08T17:07:21Z Steverman: the else statement has been modified along with the base case
2014-05-08T17:09:50Z pleek: Works indeed.
2014-05-08T17:09:54Z aranhoide quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2014-05-08T17:10:09Z pleek: You were right ignoring my ignorance.
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2014-05-08T17:11:49Z pleek: Steverman: I fear there is still an error in an edge case:
2014-05-08T17:11:55Z pleek: (proper-list-head '(0 1 2) 3)
2014-05-08T17:12:08Z pleek: Should return (0 1 2) I think.
2014-05-08T17:12:19Z pleek: Your version gives an error.
2014-05-08T17:12:40Z Steverman: hnnng
2014-05-08T17:13:04Z pleek: And without thinking through it properly, it looks a little bit too complicated to me.
2014-05-08T17:13:54Z Steverman:  (head-and-tail '(0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8) 9)
2014-05-08T17:13:56Z Steverman: Exception in proper-list-ref: index 9 is out of range of for the list (0 1 2 3 4 5 ...)
2014-05-08T17:13:57Z pleek: If `n' is zero, you can return the empty list.
2014-05-08T17:14:08Z pleek: In any case, even if `xs' is the empty list.
2014-05-08T17:16:22Z Steverman: pffff
2014-05-08T17:16:35Z pleek: Be aware, however, that I may be the victim of an off-by-one error.
2014-05-08T17:16:58Z pleek: What shall (head '(0 1 2) 0) return?
2014-05-08T17:17:17Z pleek: Is it an error or does it return the empty list?
2014-05-08T17:18:52Z Steverman: like the original head precedure?
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2014-05-08T17:19:11Z pleek: Please just type this into your Chez (Sadly, I have not Chez):
2014-05-08T17:19:13Z Steverman: it should be empty
2014-05-08T17:19:19Z pleek: (list-head '(0 1 2) 0)
2014-05-08T17:19:24Z pleek: Ok.
2014-05-08T17:19:28Z Steverman: > (list-head '(0 1 2) 0)
2014-05-08T17:19:30Z Steverman: ()
2014-05-08T17:19:35Z pleek: So we are sure.
2014-05-08T17:19:45Z pleek: And this: (list-head '(0 1 2) 3)
2014-05-08T17:19:50Z pleek: Shall yield: (0 1 2)
2014-05-08T17:19:55Z pleek: I assume
2014-05-08T17:20:10Z Steverman: yes, true
2014-05-08T17:20:15Z Steverman: but not for my implementation
2014-05-08T17:20:16Z pleek: So I was wrong.
2014-05-08T17:20:24Z pleek: O.
2014-05-08T17:20:37Z pleek: Then I may have been right in some sense.
2014-05-08T17:20:44Z Steverman: > (list-head '(0 1 2)  3)
2014-05-08T17:20:45Z Steverman: (0 1 2)
2014-05-08T17:20:47Z Steverman: > (proper-list-head '(0 1 2) 3)
2014-05-08T17:20:49Z Steverman: Exception in proper-list-ref: index 3 is out of range of for the list (0 1 2)
2014-05-08T17:20:54Z pleek: Ok.
2014-05-08T17:20:57Z pleek: Fix it :)
2014-05-08T17:21:33Z tenq|out is now known as tenq
2014-05-08T17:21:37Z pleek: Try to remove the (not (null? xs)) in line 6.
2014-05-08T17:21:54Z Steverman: but... > (list-ref '(0 1 2 3 4 5) 0)
2014-05-08T17:21:56Z Steverman: 0
2014-05-08T17:22:05Z pleek: Yes.
2014-05-08T17:22:11Z pleek: That is what confused me too.
2014-05-08T17:22:11Z Steverman: oh
2014-05-08T17:22:13Z Steverman: head
2014-05-08T17:22:16Z Steverman: and ref
2014-05-08T17:22:23Z Steverman: alright
2014-05-08T17:22:26Z Steverman: let me see what I can do
2014-05-08T17:23:24Z Steverman: > (proper-list-head '(0 1 2) 3)
2014-05-08T17:23:26Z Steverman: (0 1 2)
2014-05-08T17:23:41Z pleek: Hopefully, we still catch all errors.
2014-05-08T17:24:48Z Steverman: but > (head-and-tail '(0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8) 9)
2014-05-08T17:24:49Z Steverman: Exception in proper-list-ref: index 9 is out of range of for the list (0 1 2 3 4 5 ...)
2014-05-08T17:24:55Z Steverman: should return #t
2014-05-08T17:25:20Z Steverman: this is getting too complicated for me
2014-05-08T17:25:30Z pleek: This is a classical off-by-one problem.
2014-05-08T17:26:15Z pleek: When in doubt, try to change the inner `lambda' to a `lambda/trace'.
2014-05-08T17:26:24Z pleek: Or `lambda-trace', dunno.
2014-05-08T17:26:47Z pleek: That should show you what is going on in the loop.
2014-05-08T17:27:32Z Steverman: http://codepad.org/GUaw8C6N
2014-05-08T17:27:50Z pleek: Isn't that nice?
2014-05-08T17:27:55Z Steverman: yeah
2014-05-08T17:27:57Z Steverman: I did this once
2014-05-08T17:28:01Z Steverman: to understand recursion
2014-05-08T17:28:27Z pleek: You see: the procedure test calls itself in non-tail position.
2014-05-08T17:29:13Z pleek: Let me phrase the problem this way:
2014-05-08T17:29:23Z pleek: Consider (list-ref
2014-05-08T17:29:26Z pleek: argh
2014-05-08T17:29:37Z Steverman: :D
2014-05-08T17:29:48Z pleek: Consider (list-ref '(a b c) <n>)
2014-05-08T17:29:57Z pleek: The valid values for <n> are: 0, 1, 2
2014-05-08T17:30:08Z pleek: Now consider (list-head '(a b c) <n>)
2014-05-08T17:30:15Z pleek: The valied values for <n> are: 0, 1, 2, 3
2014-05-08T17:30:28Z pleek: That 3 is the difference we are talking about.
2014-05-08T17:30:52Z Steverman: I see
2014-05-08T17:31:03Z Steverman: but it works
2014-05-08T17:31:11Z Steverman: not for my head-and-tail test
2014-05-08T17:31:16Z Steverman: but not*
2014-05-08T17:33:09Z Steverman: my head is literally exploding right now
2014-05-08T17:33:12Z Steverman: as exercise 20 is worse
2014-05-08T17:33:17Z pleek: So take a break.
2014-05-08T17:33:18Z Steverman: possibly 27 as well
2014-05-08T17:33:35Z pleek: But remind the difference I just found out.
2014-05-08T17:33:38Z pleek: It is the key.
2014-05-08T17:33:49Z Steverman: but I thought we fixed that
2014-05-08T17:33:56Z pleek: Well, maybe not.
2014-05-08T17:34:43Z pleek: There are two possibilities:
2014-05-08T17:35:14Z pleek: 1. Your `proper-list-head' behaives different from Chez' list-head
2014-05-08T17:35:23Z pleek: 2. Your `proper-list-tail' behaives different from Chez' list-tail
2014-05-08T17:35:29Z pleek: And a third:
2014-05-08T17:35:39Z pleek: 3.  They both behaives differntly.
2014-05-08T17:36:21Z pleek: How much time do you have left to get all this done?
2014-05-08T17:36:27Z Steverman: :D
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2014-05-08T17:36:33Z Steverman: today
2014-05-08T17:36:37Z Steverman: midnight..ish
2014-05-08T17:36:45Z pleek: Thats quite a time pressure.
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2014-05-08T17:36:52Z Steverman: it sure is
2014-05-08T17:37:07Z pleek: I'll try to fix it for you.
2014-05-08T17:37:09Z vraid quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2014-05-08T17:37:12Z pleek: Move on to the next problem.
2014-05-08T17:37:15Z Steverman: I might just jump to exercise 20
2014-05-08T17:37:17Z Steverman: yeah
2014-05-08T17:37:21Z Steverman: but it has a shitton of reading
2014-05-08T17:37:28Z pleek: So do it.
2014-05-08T17:37:59Z pleek: Please do not forget to give me your current version of `proper-list-head' and `proper-list-tail'
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2014-05-08T17:38:42Z Steverman: I will
2014-05-08T17:39:24Z Steverman: http://codepad.org/I5m1EGJE
2014-05-08T17:39:31Z Steverman: everything seems to hacky right now
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2014-05-08T17:40:05Z vanila: what is this
2014-05-08T17:40:26Z Steverman: implementing the original precedures
2014-05-08T17:40:32Z Steverman: list-ref
2014-05-08T17:40:33Z vanila: you should write xs-init instead of xs_init
2014-05-08T17:40:38Z Steverman: ok
2014-05-08T17:40:54Z Steverman: I just saw my lecturer write it like that once
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2014-05-08T17:41:08Z Steverman: monkey see monkey do
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2014-05-08T18:01:48Z DrDuck: sicp emphasized a lot about the importance of wishful thinking when implementing complex systems. is that still a good common approach for a modern practical setting, creating your programs top-down?
2014-05-08T18:02:12Z DrDuck: so far that's what's been emphasized a lot. i'm only in chap 2.
2014-05-08T18:03:01Z Steverman: pleek, I will be packing and heading home so I can eat and continue working
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2014-05-08T18:04:08Z LeoNerd: I often design programs by wishful thinking
2014-05-08T18:04:41Z LeoNerd: I write the toplevel main bits of code first, inventing functions that I think would be useful, then go off and implement those... probably recursively, until I get to the stage of being able to implement them on actual things that already exist
2014-05-08T18:05:06Z vraid: i often do the same, love that approach
2014-05-08T18:06:53Z DrDuck: nice
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2014-05-08T18:09:15Z pleek: Steverman: ping
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2014-05-08T18:09:44Z pleek: I think I fixed it.
2014-05-08T18:09:48Z pleek: http://codepad.org/dlSj8rmE
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2014-05-08T18:10:10Z pleek: Please check it out yourself.
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2014-05-08T18:13:22Z pleek: Everyone here: if Steverman comes back, please help him find the public log of this channel, so can read what a wrote to him while he was time-outing.
2014-05-08T18:13:34Z pleek: I think he would appreciate that, since I have to leave now.
2014-05-08T18:13:41Z pleek: Bye
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2014-05-08T19:07:07Z ANGRYSTEVE: pleek is gone?
2014-05-08T19:08:35Z vanila: <pleek> Everyone here: if Steverman comes back, please help him find the public log of this channel, so can read what a wrote to him while he was time-outing.
2014-05-08T19:10:00Z ANGRYSTEVE: ok
2014-05-08T19:10:00Z ANGRYSTEVE: http://codepad.org/dlSj8rmE
2014-05-08T19:10:02Z ANGRYSTEVE: I found it
2014-05-08T19:11:14Z ANGRYSTEVE: I want to thank him :(
2014-05-08T19:11:49Z rszeno: will probably come back
2014-05-08T19:12:19Z rszeno: you found logs or only the codepad link?
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2014-05-08T19:13:41Z rszeno: ANGRYSTEVE?
2014-05-08T19:14:10Z ANGRYSTEVE: I found the logs
2014-05-08T19:14:14Z ANGRYSTEVE: http://ccl.clozure.com/irc-logs/scheme/scheme-2014-05.txt
2014-05-08T19:14:26Z rszeno: ok, :)
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2014-05-08T19:38:44Z vanila: ANGRYSTEVE, I had fun doing the fibonacci number thing thanks :)
2014-05-08T19:38:57Z ANGRYSTEVE: what did I do
2014-05-08T19:38:57Z ANGRYSTEVE: :D
2014-05-08T19:39:10Z ANGRYSTEVE: tail recursion vs naive?
2014-05-08T19:39:12Z vanila: yeah
2014-05-08T19:39:23Z ANGRYSTEVE: I want to try at some point
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2014-05-08T19:55:32Z ANGRYSTEVE: I have a question regarding my code
2014-05-08T19:55:41Z ANGRYSTEVE: am I like.. supposed to abstract my code?
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2014-05-08T20:01:59Z ANGRYSTEVE: someone took a giant shit on my code and said it's cancerous :D
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2014-05-08T20:25:42Z pjb: ANGRYSTEVE: don't use [] always use (). Don't use _ always use -.
2014-05-08T20:25:47Z pjb: This is what he meant.
2014-05-08T20:25:55Z stamourv: [] is fine.
2014-05-08T20:26:15Z ANGRYSTEVE: no someone else
2014-05-08T20:26:18Z pjb: There's a convention about the number of ; to begin a comment.
2014-05-08T20:26:35Z pjb: http://stackoverflow.com/questions/6365334/lisp-commenting-convention
2014-05-08T20:26:42Z pjb: It's applied by emacs.
2014-05-08T20:27:08Z ANGRYSTEVE: I always used 2 ;
2014-05-08T20:27:20Z ANGRYSTEVE: the big box was not by me
2014-05-08T20:27:22Z pjb: Line 27 and 28 only have 1.
2014-05-08T20:27:29Z ANGRYSTEVE: someone fixed my code I could not find
2014-05-08T20:27:36Z ANGRYSTEVE: he probably made it obvious for me since I wasn't on
2014-05-08T20:27:46Z pjb: Otherwise, it's always good to abstract.  But it depends on the purpose of your code. One may write throwable code.
2014-05-08T20:28:06Z ANGRYSTEVE: it's a bunch of exercises I do
2014-05-08T20:28:42Z ANGRYSTEVE: I will try to use the 10 commandments
2014-05-08T20:28:45Z ANGRYSTEVE: :)
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2014-05-08T20:33:07Z Steverman: well.. that took 1½ hours to timeout on my screen
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2014-05-08T20:56:11Z taylanub: Any R6RS experts?  I don't understand 7.6 of r6rs-rationale; it speaks of an asymmetry in the prohibitions against assignments to explicitly and implicitly exported variables, but I don't see such asymmetry; both are prohibited in the importing and exporting libraries from what I see.
2014-05-08T20:58:17Z samth: taylanub: i recommend asking on the scheme-reports list
2014-05-08T20:59:43Z taylanub: I get the feeling I'm just misinterpreting the prose in some trivial way...
2014-05-08T21:01:02Z taylanub searches archives -- maybe it's already explained
2014-05-08T21:04:52Z ANGRYSTEVE: I
2014-05-08T21:05:05Z ANGRYSTEVE: I'm trying to learn the differences between http://pastebin.com/raw.php?i=pvPRGzgK
2014-05-08T21:05:16Z ANGRYSTEVE: those 2 procedures
2014-05-08T21:05:44Z ANGRYSTEVE: the alternative version is weird for me
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2014-05-08T21:11:19Z ANGRYSTEVE: if I understand correctly, it's lambda-dropped, which doesn't mean much to me yet, but it refers to a variable outside the scope
2014-05-08T21:15:34Z taylanub: ANGRYSTEVE: do you know what 'lexical scope' aka 'static scope' means?
2014-05-08T21:15:43Z Steverman: <-- laptop
2014-05-08T21:15:49Z Steverman: yeah I guess
2014-05-08T21:15:56Z Steverman: I think of it as boxes
2014-05-08T21:15:58Z Steverman: what it can see
2014-05-08T21:16:02Z Steverman: and what it can't see
2014-05-08T21:16:37Z taylanub: (nitpick: it's advisable not to use the enter key like punctuation :) )
2014-05-08T21:17:19Z Steverman: :(
2014-05-08T21:18:18Z taylanub: Steverman: the former implementation defines a local procedure that takes the same two arguments our top-level procedure takes, then passes it them; the locally defined procedure does actually not depend on its outer environment.  in the latter example, the locally defined procedure refers to a variable that belongs to the outer, top-level procedure.  it only does that for one of the two variables though; the second
2014-05-08T21:18:18Z taylanub: receives as an argument
2014-05-08T21:19:02Z Steverman: oooh
2014-05-08T21:19:32Z Steverman: I actually made similar code for multiplication, which I can lambda-drop as well
2014-05-08T21:20:22Z Steverman: I just looked at the paramters through tracing. If it doesn't change,lambda drop it
2014-05-08T21:20:44Z Steverman: I hope I'm using the right terms
2014-05-08T21:21:55Z taylanub: I don't remember the term "lambda dropping" very well, though it rings a bell...
2014-05-08T21:22:33Z Steverman: I basically omitted the paramters that doesn't change
2014-05-08T21:23:06Z Steverman: in the local procedures of course
2014-05-08T21:23:36Z taylanub: aha: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lambda_lifting  so, you could "lift" the local procedure in the upper implementation into a separate top-level procedure because it doesn't refer to any parameters of its outer environment; it receives everything through its own arguments
2014-05-08T21:23:58Z taylanub: oh wait, that's the *reverse* of "dropping"
2014-05-08T21:24:13Z Steverman: did I do the opposite?
2014-05-08T21:24:58Z taylanub: the -alt one does dropping, the normal one could have its local procedure lifted
2014-05-08T21:25:07Z Steverman: ah yes
2014-05-08T21:25:14Z Steverman: I have it somewhere :)
2014-05-08T21:26:03Z Steverman: so to summerize what you said about lifting. It basically removes the local procedure?
2014-05-08T21:26:36Z taylanub: makes a separate, independent one, then uses that
2014-05-08T21:27:09Z nisstyre: taylanub: lambda dropping is basically just adding free variables by removing bound variables
2014-05-08T21:27:12Z nisstyre: i.e. parameters
2014-05-08T21:27:13Z taylanub: that Wikipedia page seems quite comprehensive, might want to just read that if you can handle its prose
2014-05-08T21:27:29Z nisstyre: so you end up with something that is a closure
2014-05-08T21:27:38Z nisstyre: well, something that can be converted to a closure
2014-05-08T21:27:47Z Steverman: heard that in automatas
2014-05-08T21:27:51Z nisstyre: or you can go back to the start by lambda lifting it :p
2014-05-08T21:28:20Z Steverman: oh right :( I have to do induction proof on Kleenes closure
2014-05-08T21:28:43Z Steverman: thanks for reminding me :(
2014-05-08T21:31:00Z nisstyre: Steverman: lambda lifting basically makes a procedure completely independent of the scope you call it in
2014-05-08T21:31:10Z nisstyre: lambda dropping undoes that
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2014-05-08T21:31:47Z Steverman: alrighty, I'm in the process of lambda-dropping a few procedures
2014-05-08T21:35:00Z Steverman: http://codepad.org/EYrc1d8P
2014-05-08T21:35:23Z Steverman: I'm asked to make a local procedure version of mul, pow and fac
2014-05-08T21:35:40Z Steverman: and lambda-drop those I can
2014-05-08T21:36:00Z nisstyre: Steverman: on line 38 you have (1- n), are you sure that's what you meant? :p
2014-05-08T21:36:15Z Steverman: yes
2014-05-08T21:36:17Z Steverman: chez version
2014-05-08T21:36:30Z Steverman: I could write (- n 1)
2014-05-08T21:36:33Z nisstyre: also mul is the only free variable there
2014-05-08T21:36:38Z nisstyre: just so you know
2014-05-08T21:36:57Z nisstyre: well, and zero?
2014-05-08T21:38:02Z Steverman: uh
2014-05-08T21:38:21Z nisstyre: unless you meant that x is free in visit
2014-05-08T21:38:45Z nisstyre: that seems more likely
2014-05-08T21:38:46Z Steverman: are we talking about pow now?
2014-05-08T21:39:01Z nisstyre: pow-revisited
2014-05-08T21:39:17Z Steverman: yes, I traced pow and found out that x doesn't change
2014-05-08T21:39:22Z nisstyre: okay
2014-05-08T21:39:53Z Steverman: I could use mul-revisted for my pow-revisted version
2014-05-08T21:39:55Z Steverman: I guess
2014-05-08T21:40:21Z Steverman: is that what you're refering to?
2014-05-08T21:41:02Z Steverman: well, no, you're not
2014-05-08T21:41:12Z nisstyre: no, I was just commenting on your comment about it being lambda dropped
2014-05-08T21:41:54Z nisstyre: fyi, the "dropped" here means that it drops down into a deeper scope
2014-05-08T21:42:11Z nisstyre: the "lifting" is lifting them out of a nested scope and adding parameters to make things bound
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2014-05-08T21:42:54Z Steverman: makes sense
2014-05-08T21:43:11Z Steverman: I spend too much time learning Scheme :D
2014-05-08T21:43:28Z nisstyre: if you have the money I recommend getting the book Lisp In Small Pieces
2014-05-08T21:43:48Z Steverman: I want to read The Little Schemer
2014-05-08T21:43:54Z nisstyre: that's an excellent one too
2014-05-08T21:44:02Z Steverman: or the book by Dybvig... not sure which one to choose
2014-05-08T21:44:05Z nisstyre: after you read that and The Seasoned Schemer you'll be read for LISP
2014-05-08T21:44:13Z nisstyre: *ready
2014-05-08T21:44:31Z Steverman: I might just read SICP first
2014-05-08T21:44:41Z nisstyre: SICP is okay but you might have a hard time with it
2014-05-08T21:44:57Z Steverman: I thought it was self-contained
2014-05-08T21:45:00Z vanila: don't tell people they will have hard time with SICP
2014-05-08T21:45:04Z nisstyre: it sort of is
2014-05-08T21:45:25Z nisstyre: vanila: well I'm not saying don't read it
2014-05-08T21:45:38Z nisstyre: but if they're completely new then The Little Schemer seems better
2014-05-08T21:45:49Z vanila: oh yeah, little schemer is great!
2014-05-08T21:45:54Z vanila: and a very good book to read first
2014-05-08T21:45:55Z Steverman: yeah, but it's after reading that book
2014-05-08T21:46:25Z Steverman: The Little Schemer -> SICP -> LISP book?
2014-05-08T21:46:31Z nisstyre: yeah
2014-05-08T21:46:39Z nisstyre: LISP is all about implementing lisps
2014-05-08T21:46:47Z nisstyre: so you definitely want to wait before reading it
2014-05-08T21:46:53Z nisstyre: or just read the first few chapters
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2014-05-08T21:47:32Z Steverman: I enjoy functional programming a lot more
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2014-05-08T21:47:39Z nisstyre: it is a time-honored tradition amongst Schemers to implement a toy lisp in lisp
2014-05-08T21:47:53Z nisstyre: Steverman: it mostly talks about
2014-05-08T21:47:58Z nisstyre: *talks about Scheme
2014-05-08T21:48:31Z nisstyre: there is some discussion of things like lisp-1, lisp-2, and features you might find in common lisp
2014-05-08T21:48:35Z nisstyre: but it doesn't take up much space
2014-05-08T21:49:06Z Steverman: if I want a more useful language for bigger projects
2014-05-08T21:49:09Z Steverman: what should I use?
2014-05-08T21:49:15Z nisstyre: Racket is good
2014-05-08T21:49:40Z nisstyre: it's in use at companies such as Naughty Dog (makers of the Uncharted games)
2014-05-08T21:49:50Z BitPuffin: yeah
2014-05-08T21:49:53Z Steverman: really? That's interesting
2014-05-08T21:49:54Z BitPuffin: it is used for data processing
2014-05-08T21:50:15Z BitPuffin: however they are not running racket at runtime :P
2014-05-08T21:50:23Z nisstyre: of course not
2014-05-08T21:50:27Z nisstyre: that would be insane :p
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2014-05-08T21:50:42Z BitPuffin: yup
2014-05-08T21:50:44Z BitPuffin: haha
2014-05-08T21:50:52Z BitPuffin: unfortunately racket only does jit
2014-05-08T21:51:03Z nisstyre: but they do use it for stuff like mapping out possible movements and interactions of characters
2014-05-08T21:51:18Z BitPuffin is looking in to using chicken scheme for game development
2014-05-08T21:51:21Z nisstyre: http://youtu.be/oSmqbnhHp1c
2014-05-08T21:51:31Z nisstyre: ^ RacketCon talk about it
2014-05-08T21:51:32Z BitPuffin: nisstyre: yeah exactly, I rewatched that talk the other day that Dan held
2014-05-08T21:51:38Z nisstyre: yeah it was great
2014-05-08T21:51:39Z BitPuffin: I think his name was Dan
2014-05-08T21:52:00Z nisstyre: BitPuffin: Stalin Scheme might be good if you can get it working
2014-05-08T21:52:00Z BitPuffin: hey, where can I find a guide to scheme for someone who isn't new to programming
2014-05-08T21:52:12Z BitPuffin: nisstyre: suspicious name
2014-05-08T21:52:13Z nisstyre: not very featureful though
2014-05-08T21:52:27Z nisstyre: https://github.com/barak/stalin
2014-05-08T21:52:35Z nisstyre: you might want to link in C libraries somehow
2014-05-08T21:53:02Z BitPuffin: well actually I don't have to use chicken scheme for gamedev. But I am gonna use chicken scheme at work perhaps (at least try to see if I can use it) for our core library thing that is supposed to work on ios, android, winrt, windows 8, mac etc
2014-05-08T21:53:06Z BitPuffin: since it compiles to C :)
2014-05-08T21:53:10Z Steverman: and if I just want to create a simple screenshot button that puts it in my public dropbox folder + it copes the public url link
2014-05-08T21:53:13Z BitPuffin: nisstyre: for sure
2014-05-08T21:53:17Z BitPuffin: does it not do that?
2014-05-08T21:53:19Z Steverman: I could probably do that through scripting...
2014-05-08T21:53:26Z nisstyre: BitPuffin: I don't know, haven't used it
2014-05-08T21:53:33Z nisstyre: I assume it's not too hard
2014-05-08T21:53:36Z Steverman: copies*
2014-05-08T21:54:51Z BitPuffin: is perhaps this the go to formal reference for scheme? http://www.scheme.com/tspl4/
2014-05-08T21:55:10Z Steverman: I tried to read that
2014-05-08T21:55:33Z BitPuffin: what happened
2014-05-08T21:55:35Z racycle__ quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
2014-05-08T21:55:43Z Steverman: got bored
2014-05-08T21:56:09Z Steverman: I still have the link open from 1 month ago
2014-05-08T21:56:14Z Steverman: page 1 :D
2014-05-08T21:56:44Z daviid: BitPuffin: https://github.com/davexunit/guile-2d could be a possibility as well
2014-05-08T21:57:32Z BitPuffin: daviid: ah, not looking for 2d
2014-05-08T21:57:54Z BitPuffin: or well this could be cool for game jams I guess
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2014-05-09T01:10:49Z jim: usually references should be read for reference to the particular area you're interested in... other than that, you might scan it to see how it's laid out
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2014-05-09T02:18:16Z oggaboogga: time to move to scheme for web apps!!
2014-05-09T02:18:23Z mrowe is now known as mrowe_away
2014-05-09T02:18:23Z oggaboogga is now known as ferret_commander
2014-05-09T02:18:25Z ferret_commander: :)
2014-05-09T02:18:46Z ferret_commander: when scsh going 64 bit with multiprocessing?
2014-05-09T02:18:51Z ferret_commander: sunet!
2014-05-09T02:19:47Z acarrico quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
2014-05-09T02:23:45Z jim: ferret_commander, that's what Phil Greenspun thought too..
2014-05-09T02:24:00Z ferret_commander: oh?
2014-05-09T02:24:03Z ferret_commander: I thought he love aolserver
2014-05-09T02:24:11Z ferret_commander: postgresql and tcl!
2014-05-09T02:24:13Z jim: he does
2014-05-09T02:24:16Z ferret_commander: openACS!
2014-05-09T02:24:49Z jim: well he made the precursor to openacs
2014-05-09T02:25:16Z jim: the oracle-only acs
2014-05-09T02:26:01Z jim: I think there are aolserver and naviserv modules that add scheme
2014-05-09T02:26:56Z jim: and btw I do too (love aolserver and naviserv)... I have an instance
2014-05-09T02:28:21Z ferret_commander: no way
2014-05-09T02:28:38Z ferret_commander: 4.5.1? or are u simply playing with me?
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2014-05-09T02:28:54Z ferret_commander: Im sad the crystal blal site is down
2014-05-09T02:29:03Z ferret_commander: not sur eif ossweb web frameowrk code is preserved
2014-05-09T02:29:44Z jim: no, I'm running a 5.8 openacs with naviserver and pg-9.1
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2014-05-09T02:30:21Z jim: and a broken 5.7 on aolserver and pg-8.3
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2014-05-09T02:41:49Z ferret_commander: hows it working?
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2014-05-09T02:50:04Z ferret_commander: are you using a lot of the modeules?
2014-05-09T02:50:07Z ferret_commander: :)
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2014-05-09T02:56:36Z jim: which modules?
2014-05-09T02:56:58Z jim: it works pretty well, and it doesn't crash.
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2014-05-09T03:04:34Z jim: I've used some of the openacs apps, if that's what you mean... as far as naviserv, just what's needed for openacs is pretty much all you need except in special or custom cases
2014-05-09T03:06:19Z ferret_commander: how do you learn the naviserver? are the docs there for howto connect to the db, setup db connection pool etc?
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2014-05-09T03:09:12Z ferret_commander: http://naviserver.sourceforge.net/n/toc.html hmm
2014-05-09T03:13:10Z ferret_commander: I might compile it up later
2014-05-09T03:13:20Z ferret_commander: seems a great hunk of code
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2014-05-09T03:27:45Z jim: ferret_commander, did you want to try out openacs?
2014-05-09T03:28:18Z jim: if so... there's a script that Gustaf wrote that compiles everything
2014-05-09T03:28:36Z jim: not sure but I think it downloads the sources too
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2014-05-09T12:00:49Z pleek: Hi Steverman!
2014-05-09T12:00:55Z pleek: Did it work?
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2014-05-09T12:50:21Z BitPuffin: does chicken scheme have its own irc channel or do you discuss it here?
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2014-05-09T12:52:04Z mario-goulart: BitPuffin: Yes, there is #chicken.  If it is a general scheme question, asking here is fine.  If it is a chicken-specific question, chances are you'll get better answers from #chicken (many users there are not here).
2014-05-09T12:52:12Z BitPuffin: yep just found it :)
2014-05-09T12:52:20Z mario-goulart: :-)
2014-05-09T12:52:33Z BitPuffin: alright :) well since the question is how to export a scheme function to C that's probably related to chicken
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2014-05-09T14:52:44Z ANGRYSTEVE: pleek, I have revised my code
2014-05-09T14:52:50Z ANGRYSTEVE: my lecturer took a shit on it :D
2014-05-09T14:53:08Z pleek: I expected that.
2014-05-09T14:53:20Z pleek: However, did it *work*?
2014-05-09T14:53:26Z ANGRYSTEVE: yeah it passed the tests
2014-05-09T14:53:29Z ANGRYSTEVE: unit tests
2014-05-09T14:53:33Z ANGRYSTEVE: which I didn't use
2014-05-09T14:53:33Z pleek: :)
2014-05-09T14:53:34Z ANGRYSTEVE: whoops for that
2014-05-09T14:54:54Z ANGRYSTEVE: and cringed at my emacs usage
2014-05-09T14:54:54Z ANGRYSTEVE: :D
2014-05-09T14:55:13Z ANGRYSTEVE: http://codepad.org/tY47f6OQ
2014-05-09T14:55:14Z ANGRYSTEVE: here it is
2014-05-09T14:55:18Z ANGRYSTEVE: haven't tested tail yet
2014-05-09T14:55:32Z taylanub: s/_/-/g on that code
2014-05-09T14:56:02Z ANGRYSTEVE: how important is that
2014-05-09T14:56:03Z pleek: The code looks clearer now.
2014-05-09T14:56:10Z pleek: Not important at all.
2014-05-09T14:56:39Z pleek: But the reader will ask himself why you used both - and _ for names.
2014-05-09T14:57:28Z pleek: He may search a difference that is not there.
2014-05-09T14:57:35Z pleek: *for* a difference
2014-05-09T14:57:42Z ANGRYSTEVE: one of The Ten Commandments was simplify only when the function is correct
2014-05-09T14:57:48Z taylanub: ANGRYSTEVE: by the way, consider using "internal defines" instead of letrec, in case your lecturer allows it
2014-05-09T14:58:04Z ANGRYSTEVE: well we the first one together
2014-05-09T14:58:07Z ANGRYSTEVE: I did the rest
2014-05-09T14:58:24Z pleek: BTW: I did not like those exercise very much.
2014-05-09T14:58:33Z ANGRYSTEVE: he was like "I'm teaching you how to fish"
2014-05-09T14:58:34Z pleek: It seems to be too much about error handling.
2014-05-09T14:58:51Z ANGRYSTEVE: scroll down to exercise 8 and 9
2014-05-09T14:58:55Z ANGRYSTEVE: I enjoyed that one more
2014-05-09T14:59:00Z ANGRYSTEVE: and 1 even
2014-05-09T15:02:35Z pleek: You may enjoy implementing the Chez-builtin procedure `sort' as well.
2014-05-09T15:02:42Z pleek: There are many ways to do this.
2014-05-09T15:03:59Z ANGRYSTEVE: I didn't actually finish all the exercises
2014-05-09T15:05:03Z ANGRYSTEVE: first... I have to do my other homework
2014-05-09T15:05:04Z ANGRYSTEVE: ugh
2014-05-09T15:05:05Z pleek: Do you have still have to finish them, or are you done?
2014-05-09T15:05:25Z ANGRYSTEVE: I still have to finish them
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2014-05-09T15:05:53Z pleek: Hopefully with less time pressure.
2014-05-09T15:06:05Z ANGRYSTEVE: next week :)
2014-05-09T15:06:33Z ANGRYSTEVE: I still have to finish my induction proof from last week
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2014-05-09T15:06:58Z pleek: That's fine.
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2014-05-09T15:07:31Z pleek: Proofs and proper (functional) programming have some things in common.
2014-05-09T15:08:43Z ANGRYSTEVE: he also explained 1+ and 1-
2014-05-09T15:08:51Z ANGRYSTEVE: well I kinda knew it
2014-05-09T15:08:55Z ANGRYSTEVE: but I asked if it's just from chez
2014-05-09T15:09:10Z ANGRYSTEVE: it means predacessor and sucessor
2014-05-09T15:09:13Z pleek: There is not much to explain here.
2014-05-09T15:09:23Z ANGRYSTEVE: successor*
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2014-05-09T15:09:37Z pleek: That's what they are called in math.
2014-05-09T15:09:43Z pleek: Just words.
2014-05-09T15:11:03Z ANGRYSTEVE: and I did not thank yesterday, so thank you :)
2014-05-09T15:11:19Z pleek: You did, I read that in the logs.
2014-05-09T15:11:24Z pleek: You are very welcome.
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2014-05-09T15:16:08Z pleek: Maybe you will find the well-known `erp' macro useful:
2014-05-09T15:16:12Z pleek: http://codepad.org/WKv8xd5s
2014-05-09T15:16:18Z pleek: I use it more often than my tracer.
2014-05-09T15:17:06Z ANGRYSTEVE: how exactly do I trace without using that funky trace-lambda
2014-05-09T15:17:24Z pleek: Dunno, ask the Chez docs.
2014-05-09T15:17:43Z ANGRYSTEVE: (trace name)
2014-05-09T15:17:46Z ANGRYSTEVE: oh, that simple
2014-05-09T15:18:04Z pleek: That works in many implementations.
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2014-05-09T15:18:28Z ANGRYSTEVE: does it trace everything?
2014-05-09T15:18:32Z ANGRYSTEVE: local procedures as well?
2014-05-09T15:18:42Z pleek: I think so.
2014-05-09T15:18:48Z ANGRYSTEVE: I'm not on my laptop so I can't check
2014-05-09T15:18:56Z pleek: However, "local" procedures are not reachable by name from the REPL.
2014-05-09T15:19:00Z pleek: So you cannot do this.
2014-05-09T15:19:26Z pleek: Why do you need your laptop to run scheme?
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2014-05-09T15:19:42Z ANGRYSTEVE: because my desktop is using Windows
2014-05-09T15:19:44Z DrDuck:  Hi, guys. Trying to buckle down this morning and learn a bit about the mit-scheme debugger. Does anyone have a bit of experience with the mit-scheme debugger?
2014-05-09T15:19:52Z ANGRYSTEVE: Emacs on Windows isn't optimal
2014-05-09T15:20:06Z ANGRYSTEVE: send to buffer hotkey doesn't work
2014-05-09T15:20:09Z pleek: ANGRYSTEVE: Yes, even more setup pain.
2014-05-09T15:20:13Z ANGRYSTEVE: or from buffer
2014-05-09T15:20:16Z pleek: But it works for me.
2014-05-09T15:20:36Z pleek: Ok, that is a reason.
2014-05-09T15:20:59Z pleek: You could fire up a virtual Unix machine :)
2014-05-09T15:21:17Z ANGRYSTEVE: ... I could, but I rather just use my laptop then
2014-05-09T15:22:20Z pleek: If you should have time, please try my `erp' macro.
2014-05-09T15:22:38Z ANGRYSTEVE: what does it stand for
2014-05-09T15:22:50Z pleek: Dunno, maybe "error print".
2014-05-09T15:22:56Z pleek: I did not invent that name.
2014-05-09T15:23:14Z ANGRYSTEVE: aha
2014-05-09T15:23:20Z ANGRYSTEVE: I really should do the Emacs tutorial again
2014-05-09T15:23:29Z pleek: I just implemented it.
2014-05-09T15:24:07Z pleek: And do not worry if you cannot understand what `define-syntax' and `syntax-rules' are.
2014-05-09T15:24:26Z pleek: They are for writing simple macros.
2014-05-09T15:30:02Z pleek: The name `erp' is explained here: http://hacks.catdancer.ws/erp.html
2014-05-09T15:30:19Z pleek: However, it is defined in a different lisp dialect there.
2014-05-09T15:36:51Z taylanub: DrDuck: I don't have experience with MIT/GNU Scheme, but as general IRC advice it's best to just ask specific questions when you have them.
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2014-05-09T15:57:19Z DrDuck: I'm having a problem with peeling the nested lists of SICP 2.29 - http://mitpress.mit.edu/sicp/full-text/book/book-Z-H-15.html#%_thm_2.29
2014-05-09T15:57:32Z DrDuck: on part b.
2014-05-09T15:58:00Z DrDuck: What's the best way to go about part b? Here's my progress so far: https://www.refheap.com/85291
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2014-05-09T16:09:37Z pleek: DrDuck: Are you sure that your selectors work properly?
2014-05-09T16:09:43Z pleek: Did you test them?
2014-05-09T16:11:26Z DrDuck: i guess i should work on fixing my selectors instead of trying to tweak part b first. you're right
2014-05-09T16:11:41Z DrDuck: they should be doing checks instead of one simple car or cdr
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2014-05-09T16:12:27Z pleek: Do they work at all?
2014-05-09T16:13:19Z pleek: What about (branch-structure (make-branch 2 3))
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2014-05-09T16:17:10Z pleek: Why doesn't that return 3?
2014-05-09T16:25:57Z DrDuck: okay okay i think i've got the selectors fixed. thank you for pointing that out pleek
2014-05-09T16:26:03Z pleek: :)
2014-05-09T16:26:53Z DrDuck: i was trying to tweek my procedures for the data structure for part b when my core selectors weren't working on the data structure
2014-05-09T16:27:08Z pleek: I know such situations quite well.
2014-05-09T16:27:08Z DrDuck: what are the selectors for then if they won't give you what they're supposed to!
2014-05-09T16:27:26Z pleek: You were right to propose some additional error handling.
2014-05-09T16:27:34Z pleek: That usually makes you find such errors.
2014-05-09T16:28:02Z pleek: And never underestimate the value of testing!
2014-05-09T16:28:13Z DrDuck: yeah you're right
2014-05-09T16:29:15Z DrDuck: i've been trying to use this http://web.mit.edu/~axch/www/testing-1.2.html for unit testing with mit-scheme but thought part a was so simple that i wouldn't need to
2014-05-09T16:29:17Z DrDuck: i was wrong
2014-05-09T16:30:10Z pleek: You could roll your own unit tester, too.
2014-05-09T16:30:21Z pleek: That is quite common in Scheme, since it is very easy.
2014-05-09T16:30:39Z pleek: Look at Oleg's site for examples.
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2014-05-09T16:35:53Z DrDuck: pleek: it works now! (so far) https://www.refheap.com/85291
2014-05-09T16:35:55Z DrDuck: :D
2014-05-09T16:37:25Z pleek: That's good.
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2014-05-09T18:24:55Z BitPuffin: which scheme compiler is the one with the most focus on performance etc, that compiles to native code and stuff? Is there one that is more focused on performance than say chicken?
2014-05-09T18:25:27Z vraid: wouldn't stalin be?
2014-05-09T18:25:43Z BitPuffin: does it support native threads?
2014-05-09T18:27:02Z BitPuffin: looks like stalin is it yeah
2014-05-09T18:27:21Z BitPuffin: guess I'll use chicken for dev and stalin for release if it doesn't crash :P
2014-05-09T18:28:06Z samth: BitPuffin: stalin doesn't support threads, and is unlikely to support any of the features or libraries of chicken
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2014-05-09T18:29:35Z BitPuffin: samth: yeah whenever I'd be using non-standard features (FFI etc), I'd have to either use some wrapper or write my own wrapper
2014-05-09T18:30:02Z samth: BitPuffin: i think you underestimate the difference between schemes
2014-05-09T18:30:50Z BitPuffin: I actually haven't checked how performant chicken is yet, what I'm currently experimenting with it for doesn't care much about performance, it just needs to compile to C :P
2014-05-09T18:30:57Z BitPuffin: samth: probably, I'm new to scheme
2014-05-09T18:31:14Z BitPuffin: but I know that generally with lisps they implementations differ
2014-05-09T18:31:27Z mario-goulart: BitPuffin: gambit is probably faster than chicken
2014-05-09T18:31:30Z BitPuffin: however I was under the impression that scheme had a more tight standard
2014-05-09T18:31:49Z samth: BitPuffin: scheme has a standard that doesn't define enough to get real work done
2014-05-09T18:31:56Z samth: also, stalin doesn't conform to any standards
2014-05-09T18:32:14Z BitPuffin: samth: but most people use the extra notes or whatever that some scheme experts published right?
2014-05-09T18:32:17Z mario-goulart: Isn't stalin r4rs?
2014-05-09T18:32:30Z samth: BitPuffin: no, most people pick an implementation and stick with it
2014-05-09T18:32:38Z BitPuffin: aha
2014-05-09T18:32:44Z samth: mario-goulart: that's the closest approximaton
2014-05-09T18:32:57Z mario-goulart: Anyway, I wouldn't recommend stalin for practical use.
2014-05-09T18:33:16Z mario-goulart: Unless the practical use is benchmarks. :-)
2014-05-09T18:33:49Z BitPuffin: mario-goulart: ah that compiles to C as well
2014-05-09T18:34:48Z mario-goulart: indeed
2014-05-09T18:35:10Z BitPuffin: chicken comes off as a more mature project though
2014-05-09T18:35:46Z mario-goulart: I'd say chicken's "community" is bigger
2014-05-09T18:35:56Z BitPuffin: so I might use that for work and gambit for games
2014-05-09T18:36:18Z mario-goulart: chicken has more extensions too.  But gambit is pretty solid and fast.
2014-05-09T18:37:02Z BitPuffin: mario-goulart: do you know if gambit has extensions for manual memory managament?
2014-05-09T18:37:04Z BitPuffin: manage*
2014-05-09T18:37:28Z BitPuffin: apparently it has lightweight threads. I assume that's kind of the Go-style thread then
2014-05-09T18:37:36Z BitPuffin: does it actually use multiple cores though is the question
2014-05-09T18:37:49Z mario-goulart: BitPuffin: I really don't know.  I suppose you can manually manage memory via FFI (C).
2014-05-09T18:38:21Z BitPuffin: yeah of course if it doesn't already provide it that works
2014-05-09T18:38:29Z BitPuffin: chicken does provide that already though
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2014-05-09T18:41:12Z Fare: stalin is great if what you're doing is crunching floats, otherwise forget it.
2014-05-09T18:42:10Z mario-goulart: There is a stalin egg for chicken, but I don't know exactly what it does. :-)
2014-05-09T18:42:32Z BitPuffin: haha
2014-05-09T18:42:54Z mario-goulart: And for number crunching, there's the crunch egg for chicken.
2014-05-09T18:44:03Z mario-goulart: felix used it to implement a 6502 emulator (sixtyfive-oh-two egg), IIRC. http://wiki.call-cc.org/eggref/4/sixtyfive-oh-two
2014-05-09T18:46:03Z mario-goulart: .. and a forth interpreter for 6502 on top of it.
2014-05-09T18:46:09Z mario-goulart: crazy stuff
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2014-05-09T18:52:45Z BitPuffin: .o.
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2014-05-09T21:32:34Z Fare: wow: gambit has a PHP backend!
2014-05-09T21:32:54Z Fare: also Javascript, Python, etc.
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2014-05-10T04:46:32Z DrDuck: Do you guys use wishful thinking when unit testing?
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2014-05-10T05:04:00Z offby1: you mean, do I pray?
2014-05-10T05:05:08Z DrDuck: xD
2014-05-10T05:05:22Z DrDuck: i mean writing your unit tests before your actual programs
2014-05-10T05:13:26Z offby1: hardly ever :-|
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2014-05-10T08:03:34Z cglwn: anyone have any luck setting up SublimeREPL with mit-scheme?
2014-05-10T08:09:02Z cglwn: hmm, probably too late at night to be trying to set this up
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2014-05-10T11:12:03Z taylanub: Does anyone know the rationale behind sealed and opaque record types in R6RS?  Do they have any "objective" benefits such as easier/better optimizability, or is it purely about stricter APIs?
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2014-05-10T11:18:23Z jim: taylanub, maybe it's that some types are implemented "under the hood" in some way... so to make it more list like (or something) would require more work when it was already possible to get the components
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2014-05-10T12:29:39Z taylanub: all else aside, I'm somehow bothered most by the fact that `make-record-type-descriptor' takes a vector instead of a list for the field specifiers. :P  Just .. why?
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2014-05-10T14:41:45Z asumu: taylanub: what do you mean an "objective" benefit? Opaque records are there to allow data abstraction.
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2014-05-10T14:41:57Z asumu: Otherwise anyone can dismantle your internal data structures using reflection.
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2014-05-10T14:54:40Z taylanub: asumu: objective as in e.g. certain optimizations becoming impossible if the record has to work with the introspection APIs.  "enforcing abstraction barriers" sounds nice and all, but it seems wrong to me to add additional complexity merely to *prohibit* certain things when this prohibition doesn't offer clear objective advantages
2014-05-10T14:55:03Z taylanub: what's so bad about anyone being able to dismantle your internal data structures if they explicitly want to do so?
2014-05-10T14:57:13Z asumu: Because that can break invariants in your API, and it can be done by accident. It also means optimizations may become unsound.
2014-05-10T14:57:45Z taylanub: can it really be plausibly done by accident?
2014-05-10T14:57:45Z asumu: Not adding something like opacity means you have *no choice* in having data abstraction or not.
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2014-05-10T15:02:46Z taylanub: Anyway, I can agree to disagree on how beneficial it is to be able to disable the introspective API on a record type.  What I wish to know is what the R6RS editors had in mind when they offered that ability; were they merely codifying their opinion on the standard, or are there really significant optimizations that are only feasible on opaque and/or sealed records?
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2014-05-10T15:22:24Z samth: taylanub: optimization is not the only purpose for invariants
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2014-05-10T15:26:30Z Riastradh: If our behaviour is invariant we do not need optims!
2014-05-10T15:27:10Z samth: Riastradh: huh?
2014-05-10T15:27:34Z Riastradh: Just channelling Zippy's wisdom on functional programming.
2014-05-10T15:27:42Z Riastradh: (`If our behaviour is strict we do not need fun!')
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2014-05-10T15:59:20Z Chosen: hey guys. I want to go through SICP using CommonLisp and slime. Will this work or will i run into hang ups/
2014-05-10T15:59:29Z pjb: It will work.
2014-05-10T15:59:34Z pjb: You're not the first one to do that.
2014-05-10T15:59:38Z Chosen: awesome!
2014-05-10T15:59:42Z zajn: Chosen: Did it myself; should work fine
2014-05-10T16:00:06Z Chosen: I just want to start mastering the magic of slime. It's got me excited but i also want to master the concepts in SICP
2014-05-10T16:00:48Z Chosen: i got Slime work with the autocomplete emacs plugin and fuzzy matchign. It's like better than Visual STudio.
2014-05-10T16:01:58Z Chosen: ac-slime plugin on melpa. Hey do any of you guys use slime?
2014-05-10T16:02:27Z Chosen: oh thanks zajn. I want to become a lisp master
2014-05-10T16:02:40Z pjb: We all do.
2014-05-10T16:02:49Z pjb: use slime, I mean.
2014-05-10T16:03:11Z Chosen: cool! do you use the ac-slime plugin to integrate Slime with Autocomplete?
2014-05-10T16:03:34Z Chosen: I have it configured so Cntrl-Space pops up completions. C-n C-p to go up and down the list. Tab to select. It's awesome
2014-05-10T16:04:01Z Chosen: in visual studio i ahve to use the arrow keys to go up and down the suggestion list. So much slower than C-n C-p.
2014-05-10T16:05:56Z Chosen: Are there any other must reads besides SICP?
2014-05-10T16:06:16Z pjb: Chosen: you could interface an eye tracking device with emacs so you'd just have to look at the completion!
2014-05-10T16:06:50Z Riastradh: _A Wizard of Earthsea_, by Ursula K. LeGuin.
2014-05-10T16:06:53Z pjb: There's a big list. PAIP, LiSP, etc.
2014-05-10T16:08:11Z pjb: Chosen: http://schemers.org/
2014-05-10T16:08:18Z pjb: Chosen: http://cliki.net/
2014-05-10T16:08:29Z pjb: have lists of books and tutorials.
2014-05-10T16:12:23Z Chosen: o I will check them out. A wizard of Earth sea soudns cool
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2014-05-10T16:15:12Z DrDuck: Why is SICM listed in textbooks?
2014-05-10T16:15:16Z asumu: Riastradh: great choice. And might as well throw in _The_Dispossessed_ by her as well. :)
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2014-05-10T16:27:31Z DrDuck: does the cond construct have to have the else construct attached to it at the end?
2014-05-10T16:27:40Z Riastradh: No.
2014-05-10T16:27:54Z Riastradh: rudybot: eval (cond (#f))
2014-05-10T16:27:55Z rudybot: Riastradh: your sandbox is ready
2014-05-10T16:27:55Z rudybot: Riastradh: Done.
2014-05-10T16:27:59Z Riastradh: rudybot: eval (cond (#t))
2014-05-10T16:28:00Z rudybot: Riastradh: ; Value: #t
2014-05-10T16:28:23Z Riastradh: (Not that (cond (x)) is ever sensible to write in a sensible program.)
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2014-05-10T16:36:57Z pjb: DrDuck: sicm uses scheme instead of the usual notation to write physics equations, to great benefit to understanding.
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2014-05-10T16:38:51Z offby1 saw SICM in a bookstore once and fled in terror
2014-05-10T16:38:57Z offby1: the MIT bookstore, if I recall correctly.
2014-05-10T16:44:02Z pjb: Why? It's a very loveable book.
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2014-05-10T17:03:07Z offby1: waaay too complex
2014-05-10T17:03:12Z offby1: tiny brain incapable of absorbing
2014-05-10T17:03:14Z offby1: you know
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2014-05-10T17:11:22Z DrDuck: guys the mit-scheme debugger is dreadful :\
2014-05-10T17:11:26Z cratuki: offby1: If you try writing you're own scheme interpreter from nothing, you'll probably run into some problems.
2014-05-10T17:11:53Z cratuki: offby1: This happened to me. Then when I picked up SICM, I found first chapter v useful - answered all my quesitons.
2014-05-10T17:12:17Z cratuki: offby1: Ah wrong book. I hadn't seen SICM. I'm talking SICP.
2014-05-10T17:12:20Z Riastradh: What do you find wrong with it, DrDuck?
2014-05-10T17:12:35Z Riastradh: Also: console or Edwin debugger?
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2014-05-10T17:14:06Z DrDuck: Would anyone mind sharing some advice on 2.29 part c of SICP. I'm in a bit of a knot with figuring out how to debug my solution, but could you tell me if my idea in the comments is on the right track?
2014-05-10T17:14:14Z DrDuck: problem: http://mitpress.mit.edu/sicp/full-text/book/book-Z-H-15.html#%_thm_2.29
2014-05-10T17:14:23Z DrDuck: solution: https://www.refheap.com/85314
2014-05-10T17:14:27Z DrDuck: Riastradh: console
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2014-05-10T17:15:40Z offby1: cratuki: yep, I've read (most of?) SICP, and admire it.
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2014-05-10T17:15:45Z offby1: SICM is a whole 'nother ball of wax.
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2014-05-10T17:19:04Z DrDuck: damn this debugger
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2014-05-10T17:22:54Z Riastradh: DrDuck, what's the nature of your trouble with the debugger?
2014-05-10T17:22:58Z theseb: offby1: the physics book?
2014-05-10T17:23:08Z theseb: offby1: what is the problem with that?
2014-05-10T17:24:20Z theseb: offby1: it uses some fairly advanced stuff called Lagrangian Mechanics...if you have never seen that before that might turn people off
2014-05-10T17:24:48Z theseb: offby1: but that is really a fault of the average physics training of students...not of SICM
2014-05-10T17:26:30Z Riastradh: DrDuck, what's up with the conditionals in RIGHT-BRANCH and BRANCH-STRUCTURE?
2014-05-10T17:26:38Z DrDuck: Riastradh: I just found the problem I was having, but in general when I enter the debugger, I'd like to be able to see the value that returned from a procedure
2014-05-10T17:27:47Z DrDuck: and also a visual trace of procedures being called would be useful. i believe a saw someone showing me a visual picture of when procedures were called with Guile scheme using a tracer
2014-05-10T17:28:23Z DrDuck: this is the fixed solution, though :D https://www.refheap.com/85314
2014-05-10T17:28:37Z Riastradh: Type `h' for a stack trace.
2014-05-10T17:28:48Z Riastradh: Run (trace foo) to trace calls to FOO.
2014-05-10T17:29:12Z Riastradh: (The output of MIT Scheme's tracer is unpleasantly verbose and hard to follow, I'll admit.)
2014-05-10T17:29:48Z DrDuck: ahhh i didnt see typing 'h' could help on here: http://groups.csail.mit.edu/mac/ftpdir/scheme-7.4/doc-html/user_6.html
2014-05-10T17:29:50Z DrDuck: now i know
2014-05-10T17:29:54Z DrDuck: ty
2014-05-10T17:30:18Z Riastradh: Type `?' for help.
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2014-05-10T17:43:11Z offby1: ?
2014-05-10T17:43:48Z DrDuck: O_o
2014-05-10T17:43:57Z vraid: ?_?
2014-05-10T17:45:32Z Riastradh serves offby1 a heapin' helpin' of help.
2014-05-10T17:46:26Z offby1: Mighty tasty cereal flakes, Mrs McDunnough.
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2014-05-10T18:05:40Z DrDuck: omg looking at other people's solutions to 2.29 part c on github makes me shed a tear. their solutions are so much more elegant than mine
2014-05-10T18:05:45Z DrDuck: that feel, man
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2014-05-10T18:46:42Z offby1: that's how ya learn
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2014-05-11T02:08:53Z r2q2: how do i turn a language recogniser into a enumerator?
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2014-05-11T03:23:07Z nisstyre: r2q2: you could write it in a logic language and then ask for all possible answers maybe?
2014-05-11T03:23:23Z nisstyre: kanren should be able to pull that off
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2014-05-11T04:20:21Z sigjuice: is there a procedure that will check whether a symbol is bound?
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2014-05-11T04:26:11Z jim: a symbol is bound if it is found in a symbol table, so, you would have to do a lookup
2014-05-11T04:27:10Z jim: or in some property list... not all schemes are implemented alike
2014-05-11T04:28:56Z sigjuice: I was hoping for something like boundp or fboundp from Common Lisp.
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2014-05-11T04:31:01Z nisstyre: sigjuice: well you can look at the program and decide whether or not it is bound or free
2014-05-11T04:31:31Z nisstyre: it's not like common lisp where you have rampant dynamic scope ;)
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2014-05-11T04:40:06Z DrDuck: is there anything htdp offers that sicp doesn't?
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2014-05-11T13:59:32Z pleek: hmmm
2014-05-11T13:59:49Z DrDuck: mornin' pleek
2014-05-11T13:59:54Z pleek: Hi DrDuck!
2014-05-11T13:59:59Z DrDuck: :D
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2014-05-11T14:00:38Z pleek: Are you still exercising through SICP?
2014-05-11T14:02:54Z DrDuck: pleek: yes i want to do every problem. taking a small break this morning and resuming in a few hours :)
2014-05-11T14:04:00Z pleek: Some exercises can be quite challenging :)
2014-05-11T14:05:41Z pleek: DrDuck: Can you imagine a use case for the expression (lambda (x) (x x)) ?
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2014-05-11T14:08:53Z DrDuck: pleek: I think i recall using those sorts of expressions in representing church numerals in early chapter 2.
2014-05-11T14:09:46Z pleek: That is valuable observation.
2014-05-11T14:10:34Z pleek: The Church numeral for 0 is (lambda (f) (lambda (x) x))
2014-05-11T14:10:52Z pleek: Please observe that these two expressions have *no* free variables at all.
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2014-05-11T14:11:19Z pleek: Such expressions are commonly called "combinators".
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2014-05-11T14:12:02Z DrDuck: :d
2014-05-11T14:12:17Z DrDuck: I didn't like that exercise much at all.
2014-05-11T14:12:27Z DrDuck: Wonder if they will expand on it later in the book, though.
2014-05-11T14:12:33Z pleek: I did't like it either.
2014-05-11T14:12:39Z pleek: But I changed my opinion later.
2014-05-11T14:15:58Z DrDuck: What made you change it?
2014-05-11T14:16:08Z DrDuck: Was it outside the scope of the book?
2014-05-11T14:16:38Z pleek: Mostly outside the scope, yes.
2014-05-11T14:16:46Z pleek: But I did not make all exercises...
2014-05-11T14:17:46Z DrDuck: there are a lot to be fair
2014-05-11T14:17:57Z pleek: However, Church numerals serve as a simple example of how to use the "pure" lambda calculus.
2014-05-11T14:18:05Z pleek: Yes, they are quite a lot.
2014-05-11T14:18:08Z pleek: I still do some.
2014-05-11T14:18:28Z pleek: Some led me to start my own projects.
2014-05-11T14:19:32Z pleek: Beeing familiar with the lambda calculus is useful not only for Scheme, but for all functional languages.  (Obviously)
2014-05-11T14:21:11Z DrDuck: I will take note and hope and pray it comes to me how it will be useful down the line xD
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2014-05-11T14:24:08Z pleek: Haskell's friends tend to throw around Church numerals from time to time.
2014-05-11T14:24:18Z pleek: For example.
2014-05-11T14:27:30Z pleek: DrDuck: Can you write a factorial function without using `define' and `letrec'?
2014-05-11T14:29:32Z DrDuck: pleek: I can't. I don't even know what letrec does. xD
2014-05-11T14:29:49Z pleek: Shall I show it to you?
2014-05-11T14:31:24Z pleek: I take that as a yes :)
2014-05-11T14:31:28Z pleek: http://codepad.org/9hCn2JEU
2014-05-11T14:31:59Z DrDuck: :O
2014-05-11T14:32:02Z pleek: This simple example yields an error.
2014-05-11T14:32:14Z DrDuck: nice
2014-05-11T14:32:15Z DrDuck: wait
2014-05-11T14:32:17Z DrDuck: what error
2014-05-11T14:32:18Z pleek: Because the name `fact' is not bound in the lambda body.
2014-05-11T14:32:29Z pleek: Look under "Output"
2014-05-11T14:32:37Z pleek: >>> reference to undefined identifier: fact
2014-05-11T14:32:40Z DrDuck: i see
2014-05-11T14:32:59Z pleek: The whole point about letrec is: it fixes this problem.
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2014-05-11T14:33:17Z DrDuck: nice
2014-05-11T14:33:21Z DrDuck: what does letrec stand for
2014-05-11T14:33:24Z DrDuck: the rec part
2014-05-11T14:33:33Z pleek: "Recursive" I think.
2014-05-11T14:33:43Z pleek: http://codepad.org/I7QAgnE4
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2014-05-11T14:34:08Z pleek: (I needed to `write' the result to produce any actual output.)
2014-05-11T14:34:39Z DrDuck: i hope they introduce letrec and some cool exercises in the book too
2014-05-11T14:35:14Z pleek: They do!
2014-05-11T14:35:56Z DrDuck: :D
2014-05-11T14:36:22Z pleek: However, you should have learned enough by now to understand why the version using `let' gives the "undefined identifier" error.
2014-05-11T14:36:40Z DrDuck: hmmm
2014-05-11T14:36:43Z pleek: Just translate the `let' expression into a `lambda' expression.
2014-05-11T14:36:58Z DrDuck: does it have to do with the scope?
2014-05-11T14:37:03Z pleek: Yes!
2014-05-11T14:37:06Z DrDuck: :D
2014-05-11T14:38:22Z DrDuck: i can't say what in particular though haha
2014-05-11T14:38:34Z DrDuck: i really struggled at the end of chapter 1 when dealing with lambda and let
2014-05-11T14:38:47Z DrDuck: hoping i'll get stronger with it as the book progresses and it's forced on me more
2014-05-11T14:39:02Z DrDuck: been avoiding it like the plague in solutions to the exercises
2014-05-11T14:39:12Z vraid: let?
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2014-05-11T14:39:25Z DrDuck: well not let, i guess
2014-05-11T14:39:27Z DrDuck: mostly lambda
2014-05-11T14:39:37Z DrDuck: it's tricky
2014-05-11T14:43:41Z vraid: it gets intuitive after a while
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2014-05-11T15:03:47Z pleek: DrDuck: `lambda' is not tricky at all.
2014-05-11T15:04:02Z pleek: It just binds names when applied.
2014-05-11T15:04:36Z vanila: I think there's a lot to lambda though...
2014-05-11T15:04:55Z pleek: I don't think so.
2014-05-11T15:05:26Z pleek: Of course, it is very easy to construct some nested `lambda' expressions that nobody can understand.
2014-05-11T15:05:42Z pleek: But that is the case in any language.
2014-05-11T15:06:16Z pleek: Just remember that (let ((x 10)) (foo x)) is the same as ((lambda (x) (foo x)) 10)
2014-05-11T15:06:46Z pleek: That is: left-left-lambda is the same as `let'.
2014-05-11T15:07:19Z pleek: When we see that, we can continue be equational reasoning.
2014-05-11T15:07:30Z pleek: *by* equational reasoning
2014-05-11T15:08:23Z pleek: BTW: For completeness, here is the factorial without `define' and `letrec':
2014-05-11T15:08:26Z pleek: http://codepad.org/juBdz0Cp
2014-05-11T15:08:29Z pleek: How does it work?
2014-05-11T15:09:50Z pleek: Why does it use (lambda (x) (x x)) ?
2014-05-11T15:10:00Z pleek: What does (lambda (x) (x x)) even mean?
2014-05-11T15:11:15Z pleek: Hint: It evaluates to a procedure.
2014-05-11T15:11:18Z pleek: :)
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2014-05-11T15:19:41Z vraid: ((lambda (x) (x x)) (lambda (x) (x x)))
2014-05-11T15:19:57Z pleek: vraid: Of course.
2014-05-11T15:20:03Z DrDuck: the recurring nightmare
2014-05-11T15:20:06Z DrDuck: x_x
2014-05-11T15:20:22Z pleek: It should remaind you of Quines.
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2014-05-11T15:24:09Z vanila: ((lambda (x) `(,x ',x)) '(lambda (x) `(,x ',x))) I think?
2014-05-11T15:24:34Z vraid: what are all those ` , '
2014-05-11T15:24:44Z vanila: ((lambda (x) (quasiquote ((unquote x) (quote (unquote x))))) (quote (lambda (x) (quasiquote ((unquote x) (quote (unquote x)))))))
2014-05-11T15:25:03Z vanila: it's like perls string interpolation "a $foo b"
2014-05-11T15:26:02Z LeoNerd: vanila: Ever wonder why perl can spell strings  q(this is literal)  and  qq(this will $interpolate)  ? ;)
2014-05-11T15:26:28Z vanila: I've not really thought about it.. :D
2014-05-11T15:27:42Z pleek: vanila: Can we write your quine without `quasiquote'?
2014-05-11T15:28:53Z vanila: no
2014-05-11T15:29:02Z vanila: I just memorized it from some webpage
2014-05-11T15:31:48Z vanila: ((lambda (x) (list x (list (quote quote) (list x)))) (quote (lambda (x) (list x (list (quote quote) (list x))))))
2014-05-11T15:31:57Z pleek: :)
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2014-05-11T15:33:19Z oleo: can someone convert list-recurser to cl ?
2014-05-11T15:33:47Z pleek: ((lambda (x) (list x (list (quote quote) x))) (quote (lambda (x) (list x (list (quote quote) x)))))
2014-05-11T15:34:09Z pleek: I think that is exactly the same as the first, but without `quasiquote'.
2014-05-11T15:34:30Z pleek: Try to do that in C!
2014-05-11T15:34:45Z pleek: oleo: what is list-recurser?
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2014-05-11T15:44:00Z oleo: http://community.schemewiki.org/?idiom
2014-05-11T15:45:15Z pleek: What is your problem in compiling this to CL?
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2014-05-11T16:07:05Z DrDuck: in sicp they quote "It is better to have 100 functions operate on one data structure than 10 functions on 10 data structures" i realize in lisp's case, it's all of the procedures and abstraction on lists to make new data structures. is it the same as with lisp/scheme in clojure? what about java? do other languages not use one data structure to build on top of like lisp does?
2014-05-11T16:07:48Z pleek: Why does scheme have vectors?
2014-05-11T16:08:13Z LeoNerd: Because otherwise Scheme would have no O(1) random-access structure
2014-05-11T16:08:51Z pleek: So even the so-simple Scheme needs more than pairs.
2014-05-11T16:09:15Z pleek: (At least on traditional hardware.)
2014-05-11T16:09:47Z DrDuck: oh
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2014-05-11T16:09:48Z DrDuck: :O
2014-05-11T16:09:49Z LeoNerd: Without vectors, you'd have to use either naïve O(n) list traversal access, or some kind of balanced binary tree in O(n log n) time, or such. But many times, you can have and want O(1) random access
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2014-05-11T16:10:19Z pleek: But please note that vectors tend to show up mostly in imperative programs.
2014-05-11T16:11:13Z DrDuck: i see sicp has a section called memory as vectors
2014-05-11T16:11:18Z DrDuck: maybe that will be interesting
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2014-05-11T16:11:26Z pleek: But there are `vector->list' and `list->vector', to enable you to follow the Perlis quote.
2014-05-11T16:12:04Z LeoNerd: Yes.. things like list->vector are useful for the places where you want to initialise some data, perhaps from reading a file or whatever and you don't yet know how long it'll be, but once loaded the size is fixed.
2014-05-11T16:12:20Z LeoNerd: So you load into a list, then list->vector it so that during runtime the items have O(1) access time
2014-05-11T16:13:28Z pleek: The other way would be to guess some initial vector size and resize it as needed.
2014-05-11T16:13:33Z LeoNerd: I often do similar in C actually.. load things into a linked list of structs, then convert that into a malloc'ed array at the end. Avoids silly realloc'isms
2014-05-11T16:13:35Z pleek: As realloc() in C does.
2014-05-11T16:13:44Z pleek: :)
2014-05-11T16:13:48Z LeoNerd: Yeah, but don't forget every realloc is a potential memcpy()
2014-05-11T16:14:03Z pleek: Yeah!
2014-05-11T16:14:03Z LeoNerd: The realloc-based approach takes O(n log n) time, whereas linked list + copy is just O(n)
2014-05-11T16:14:36Z pleek: But I have to say that I read a reddit post some weeks ago, talking about how smart modern realloc() actually is.
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2014-05-11T16:15:05Z LeoNerd: Eh.. it's not great.
2014-05-11T16:15:15Z pleek: However, I prefer your list based approach for myself most of the time.
2014-05-11T16:15:19Z LeoNerd: Perl's internals have a malloc/realloc-like mechanism that in ideal cases, can realloc from either end.
2014-05-11T16:15:24Z pleek: Since it is easier for me.
2014-05-11T16:15:46Z LeoNerd: If you have an array or string, you can sometimes resize it from the start /or/ the end without movement
2014-05-11T16:16:31Z pleek: How often is "sometimes"?
2014-05-11T16:16:47Z pleek: Nevermind, I will look it up.
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2014-05-11T23:14:53Z brianmwaters: Scheme is on Hacker News today! https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7729800
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2014-05-12T02:11:49Z jcowan: ho hey
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2014-05-12T07:53:40Z leo2007: can all recursions be converted to tail-recursions?
2014-05-12T07:55:36Z ecraven: if you add enough imperativity, probably
2014-05-12T07:55:47Z ecraven: but not in general, I would think
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2014-05-12T07:56:24Z taylanub: leo2007: Yes, you'll essentially be emulating the stack with a data structure you pass forth.
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2014-05-12T08:01:01Z leo2007: taylanub: do you have an example?
2014-05-12T08:01:17Z leo2007: ecraven: yes, I do find some are hard to convert.
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2014-05-12T08:09:50Z taylanub: leo2007: I might be able to come up with one if you provide a recursive process that puts up a challenge
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2014-05-12T08:10:14Z taylanub: I've never delved much into that method but AFAIK it's applicable to any recursive process
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2014-05-12T08:19:42Z ecraven: take in-order tree traversal of an n-ary tree for example. there's no primitive way to tail-recursify that without duplicating a stack, is there?
2014-05-12T08:24:56Z taylanub: sure, you will have to emulate a stack
2014-05-12T08:28:14Z taylanub: perhaps one could say that "the" stack is merely a convenience that covers a large group of cases where a stack/queue is intrinsic or helpful to an algorithm.  just like "the state" of global/mutable variables which can as well be made an explicit input and output parameter of all procedures in the program
2014-05-12T08:28:42Z taylanub: i.e. "the" stack is merely "a" stack in the end
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2014-05-13T01:35:31Z jcowan: hoi
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2014-05-13T02:07:50Z republican_devil: anyone here using termite scheme?
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2014-05-13T02:10:38Z jcowan: You might be better off on the Gambit-C mailing list.
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2014-05-13T03:42:30Z rptx: Hi everybody, I have a question. Why does this '(and (caddr '(false true false)) #t)' evaluate to true? I am using mit-scheme
2014-05-13T03:43:50Z jcowan: Because in Scheme everything is true that is not #f.
2014-05-13T03:44:58Z rptx: but, (caddr '(false true false)) evaluates to 'false', and when I do (and false #t) it is #f
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2014-05-13T03:46:13Z jcowan: "and" returns either #f (if one of the arguments is #f) or the value of the last argument, in this case #t.
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2014-05-13T03:47:34Z rptx: why is 'false' equivalent to #f outside of the caddr, and no inside?
2014-05-13T03:48:03Z rptx: I have now tested (and (caddr '(#t #t #f)) #t) and it is correctly #f
2014-05-13T03:48:24Z jcowan: Because false is being interpreted as a variable in (and false #t), and it so happens that its value is #f.
2014-05-13T03:48:41Z jcowan: In (caddr '(false true false)) it is just a symbol, thanks to the quotation.
2014-05-13T03:49:03Z jcowan: In most Schemes, the variable false does not have a value, so you'd expect (and false #t) to throw an error.
2014-05-13T03:49:16Z jcowan: On the other hand, (and 'false #t) would return #t.
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2014-05-13T03:50:48Z rptx: intresting
2014-05-13T03:51:44Z rptx: So even if the 'caddr' part returns a variables name, it won't 'expanded' to its value?
2014-05-13T03:52:29Z rptx: If I have for example (define a 3) (and (car '(a b)) would that a, not be 3?
2014-05-13T03:52:35Z jcowan: Right.
2014-05-13T03:52:42Z jcowan: Inside quotation marks, there are no variables.
2014-05-13T03:52:50Z jcowan: er, inside (quote ...) or '(...)
2014-05-13T03:54:52Z rptx: Wow, I thought that '() was essentially the same as (list ...)
2014-05-13T03:55:12Z rptx: But now I see they are not
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2014-05-13T03:56:37Z rptx: jcowan: thanks!
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2014-05-13T03:57:26Z jcowan: By the same token, '(+ 3 4) is not 7, but a list of three elements.
2014-05-13T03:58:41Z rptx: well, that I would have figure out. But didn't know that if it was a varaible name, it woulded be expanded to its value
2014-05-13T04:00:32Z rptx: variable* wouldn't*
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2014-05-13T04:04:01Z jcowan: I should have said, a list of a symbol and two numbers, not a list of a procedure and two numbers.  + is no different from false in this respect.
2014-05-13T04:05:22Z rptx: Got it!
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2014-05-13T04:28:51Z Kasayarou: Potentially cross-dialect question: Is a function application of the form (f a b . c) ever legal? If so, under what circumstances? How is 'c' evaluated and bound?
2014-05-13T04:30:14Z Kasayarou: (I wasn't able to glark the answer from R6RS, although I may have missed something.)
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2014-05-13T04:54:53Z oleo: f takes at least two args and the rest is bound to c ?
2014-05-13T04:55:07Z oleo: required args....
2014-05-13T04:55:33Z oleo: no wait 3 required args....
2014-05-13T04:55:42Z oleo: two are bound to a and b and the rest to c
2014-05-13T04:55:54Z oleo: afaik
2014-05-13T04:56:36Z Kasayarou: No, not something like (lambda (a b . c) ...); I mean where the actual _call site_ is an improper list.
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2014-05-13T07:46:26Z taylanub: Kasayarou: the call site must be a proper list, else it's invalid "syntax"
2014-05-13T07:46:46Z taylanub: (scare-quotes because it's valid s-expression syntax but not a valid s-expression when interpreted as Lisp code)
2014-05-13T07:48:53Z Kasayarou: Understood. Do you know of any dialects of Lisp in which that syntax *does* have an evaluation semantics, by the way?
2014-05-13T07:49:26Z taylanub: don't know
2014-05-13T07:49:51Z ecraven: Kasayarou: I've never seen it in any lisp I know of
2014-05-13T07:53:11Z jim: the thing is broken list syntax
2014-05-13T07:53:34Z jim: it's really dotted pairs with the last cdr not '()
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2014-05-13T07:54:11Z jim: I guess it
2014-05-13T07:54:59Z jim: is... (f . (a . (b . c)))
2014-05-13T07:56:01Z jim: Perhaps some lisps see the fake list and throw an error?
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2014-05-13T07:58:24Z jim: Kasayarou, you asked "Do you know of any dialects of Lisp in which that syntax *does* have an evaluation semantics", and I sense that you've seen one and can say something about what the semantics should be... yes?
2014-05-13T07:58:43Z Kasayarou: Well, yes and no.
2014-05-13T08:00:11Z Kasayarou: I can give a possibly-reasonable semantics, based on the fact that I am writing a Lisp and wasn't sure how to handle that and so made something up.
2014-05-13T08:00:27Z jim: one part, is how do you know you'[re at the end? (atom (cdr something))?
2014-05-13T08:00:47Z ecraven: Kasayarou: what would that possibly-reasonable semantics be?
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2014-05-13T08:01:41Z Kasayarou: jim: basically. So (f a b . (c)) is just (f a b c) and this wouldn't be applicable.
2014-05-13T08:02:21Z taylanub: It should probably be an error, no one will expect it to work really.  You could think up a couple intuitive things though if you want, like expecting the last object to evaluate to a list (e.g. through variable reference, since it can't be a function call, since then it would be a continuation of the argument list), using this as a short-hand for `apply' .. but it's kinda dirty
2014-05-13T08:02:22Z jim: well that's the "degenerate" case :)
2014-05-13T08:02:24Z Kasayarou: ecraven: evaluate c, then bind normally? It would require a dotted lambda-list, though.
2014-05-13T08:03:17Z jim: I thought the dotted lambda arg list already means something?
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2014-05-13T08:03:34Z Kasayarou: jim: Yes, but it works with that.
2014-05-13T08:04:21Z Kasayarou: So ((lambda (a . b) b) 'a . 'b) => b, but also ((lambda (a . b) b) 'a 'b . 'c) => (b . c), without exceptional interpretation.
2014-05-13T08:04:29Z jim: so if we have (define f (lambda (a b . c) ... )
2014-05-13T08:04:36Z Kasayarou: ... it's late, so I may have gotten my quotes crossed.
2014-05-13T08:04:56Z taylanub: thing is, you could make (foo x y . rest) be equivalent to (apply foo x y rest), but while (apply foo x y (list z)) works fine, (foo x y . (list z)) is just syntactically equivalent to (foo x y list z) and *won't* do the intuitive thing
2014-05-13T08:05:05Z jim: and we have z y and z defined
2014-05-13T08:05:37Z jim: and we do this call: (f x y . z)
2014-05-13T08:06:06Z jim: then, what? c gets bound to z?
2014-05-13T08:06:16Z taylanub: that would make sense, but consider what I said
2014-05-13T08:06:20Z Kasayarou: taylanub: that's almost correct. (foo x y . rest) is equivalent to (apply foo x y . rest). ... assuming I remember how apply works.
2014-05-13T08:06:25Z Kasayarou: jim: yes.
2014-05-13T08:06:34Z taylanub: Kasayarou: you mean (apply foo x y rest)
2014-05-13T08:07:04Z jim: taylanub, haven't read it yet :) I will, and I have a suspicion I already agree :)
2014-05-13T08:07:30Z jim: here's my thing:
2014-05-13T08:07:51Z jim: the syntax is that of a broken list
2014-05-13T08:08:12Z jim: so at MINIMUM, it's non-[portable
2014-05-13T08:09:44Z jim: a lisp implementation may even have a documented semantics for it... in which case we have one lisp it works on (well depending on if the semantics are what you describe, not somethign unexpected)
2014-05-13T08:10:36Z jim: one reason for me saying this... is the whole thing depends on a bug in the reader
2014-05-13T08:11:03Z jim: and some implementations may have fixed that bug
2014-05-13T08:11:20Z Kasayarou: taylanub: having looked up apply, I think I mean (apply foo `(,x ,y . ,rest)).
2014-05-13T08:11:28Z jim: (sorry for the enter keys, but I was streamin)
2014-05-13T08:11:31Z Kasayarou: jim: Er, what? Bug in the reader?
2014-05-13T08:12:10Z jim: a reader that accepts (a b c . d) is broken, due to a bug in the reader
2014-05-13T08:13:14Z jim: you may disagree, and I'm ok with that... I just want to make sure this position is heard :)
2014-05-13T08:13:19Z Kasayarou: ... that can't possibly be true.
2014-05-13T08:14:11Z Kasayarou: That's ... okay, I thought you were just using nonstandard terminology with 'broken list'.
2014-05-13T08:14:23Z jim: my contention is it's a REALLY old bug :) what has you say it's impossible?
2014-05-13T08:14:48Z Kasayarou: But '(a . b), regardless of whether or not it's a valid functional form, is a perfectly legitimate Lisp data structure.
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2014-05-13T08:15:28Z jim: sure, I'm just talking about the broken list syntax, that's all
2014-05-13T08:15:29Z Kasayarou: It's an improper list, not a *broken* one.
2014-05-13T08:16:17Z jim: ok, so if your contention is that it's improper, would you also be willing to say that it should be permitted?
2014-05-13T08:17:20Z Kasayarou: Why on earth shouldn't it be?
2014-05-13T08:17:40Z jim: my bias says it
2014-05-13T08:17:45Z jim: is unclean
2014-05-13T08:18:06Z jim: that's just me tho, I'm not saying anyone else thinks that
2014-05-13T08:18:26Z Kasayarou: -- just to be clear, you're not talking about my weird "(f a b . c) is a valid function-application" Lisp here, you're talking about every "(a b . c) is a valid s-expression" Lisp?
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2014-05-13T08:21:02Z jim: well yeah... I like to have documentation and to have code that kinda documents itself as far as possible... and, I would contend it's possible to represent it as (a . (b . c)) so it's unnecessary to permit the broken syntax
2014-05-13T08:24:23Z jim: is there existing code that uses this syntax?
2014-05-13T08:25:25Z Kasayarou: Okay, uh. Please don't go around telling people -- especially people who should probably be asleep and are therefore slightly gullible --  that the commonly accepted s-expression syntax "(a . b)" is "a bug in the reader" that may be "fixed".
2014-05-13T08:25:31Z jim: that would probably be enough for me to say I guess it can be permitted (so let's not change anything)
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2014-05-13T08:26:09Z taylanub: Kasayarou: `(x y . ,z) evals to (x y . <value-of-z>) which is only a proper list if the value of z is a list, which means you'll essentially be just doing (apply foo x y z)
2014-05-13T08:26:46Z jim: nono, (a . b) is fine, that's proper dotted pair syntax
2014-05-13T08:27:05Z Kasayarou: taylanub: Yes, I'm specifically interested in the case where the value of z is not a proper list.
2014-05-13T08:27:22Z taylanub: Kasayarou: it should really just be an error
2014-05-13T08:27:48Z jim: in fact the dotted pair syntax can represent (a b . c) which is why I contend we can remove the loophole in the part of the reader that does lists
2014-05-13T08:27:55Z taylanub: everything else is a contrived semantics
2014-05-13T08:28:23Z Kasayarou: taylanub: Why's that?
2014-05-13T08:29:18Z jim: One thing I'd use to support my contention is that it's definitely possible to remove the bug from the part of the reader that handles lists
2014-05-13T08:29:21Z taylanub: Kasayarou: "contrived" is subjective of course but most people are likely to agree; and you don't get anything particularly useful anyway, it just complicates things
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2014-05-13T08:31:12Z taylanub: BTW I just realized that applying to an improper list is *yet another* thing than (foo bar . baz)
2014-05-13T08:32:41Z Kasayarou: taylanub: Oh, it's definitely a bit odd, and I will probably remove it. (It wasn't actually that complicated, though: two or three lines of code, and I think it'll take me at least that many to properly dispermit it.)
2014-05-13T08:32:59Z taylanub: I suppose the only feasible semantics would be that if you have (lambda (x y . z) ...), then applying that to the improper list (x y . z) binds z to z, meaning it's not necessarily a list, but what benefit does this even bring, might as well just make the arg list (x y z) then
2014-05-13T08:34:23Z Kasayarou: Well, you also get that applying that to (1 2 3 . 4) binds (3 . 4) to z.
2014-05-13T08:34:24Z taylanub: Kasayarou: A very coherent thing to do is to simply consider the x in (lambda x ...) to be an arbitrary tree, and match that tree to the x in (foo . x), the language Kernel does this, but this doesn't reflect very well the low-level nature of function-calls where a stack frame has a *vector* of arguments inserted (or something .. I'm rusty there)
2014-05-13T08:35:11Z Kasayarou: I don't recall Kernel doing that, but I did consider arbitrary tree-destructuring of that sort.
2014-05-13T08:36:00Z taylanub: in Kernel you can just apply (lambda (x (y z) t) ...) to e.g. '(a (b c) d) and it does what you'd expect
2014-05-13T08:37:53Z Kasayarou: (I eventually decided against it, not on low-level grounds, but on the grounds that a) it wasn't a very useful semantics, but also b) that it made further expanding the semantics (e.g. to include CL-style optional parameters) difficult.)
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2014-05-13T08:49:06Z Kasayarou: Hmm. Shutt makes an interesting argument for "generalized definiends" in certain contexts -- the 'let' example is particularly compelling. I ... will have to think on this!
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2014-05-13T08:57:42Z taylanub: http://sprunge.us/BEFX  Note that implementing a destructuring `let' is trivial in terms of a `match' macro like found in many Scheme implementations.  It's questionable whether there's any utility in building this right into the standard `let' when traditionally it's always been a simple mirror of `lambda', and it's even more questionable whether it's good to build destructuring right into `lambda'.
2014-05-13T09:00:09Z taylanub: If my understanding serves right, building destructuring into lambda means that if you compile a procedure-call like (foo x y), and `foo' is from a separately compiled module (meaning your compiler has no metadata about it), you *must* allocate an argument-tree containing x and y, because you don't know what foo will later want to do with it.  If you instead force simple/proper argument lists, you can just compile i
2014-05-13T09:00:10Z taylanub: function-call that does no allocation
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2014-05-13T09:06:16Z taylanub: Hrm, my reasoning might be wrong, now that I think of it I have no idea how variable-arity procedures are normally handled, they should have the same complication
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2014-05-13T16:14:14Z DrDuck: Hey, guys. I was wondering if I could get some advice on how to approach SICP 2.32. I've put some display functions in to try to get an understanding of what direction to take, but I'm pretty clueless right now.
2014-05-13T16:14:26Z DrDuck: 2.32 discription: http://mitpress.mit.edu/sicp/full-text/book/book-Z-H-15.html#%_thm_2.32
2014-05-13T16:14:47Z DrDuck: displays placed in skeleton code with output: https://www.refheap.com/85426
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2014-05-13T16:16:11Z vanila: I thnik you should start from the beginning
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2014-05-13T16:16:26Z DrDuck: vanila: The beginning?
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2014-05-13T16:16:39Z vanila: https://www.refheap.com/85426 <-- I mean don't use thisa
2014-05-13T16:17:29Z vanila: oh
2014-05-13T16:17:41Z vanila: you removed this part:  (append rest (map <??> rest))
2014-05-13T16:18:29Z DrDuck: yes
2014-05-13T16:18:35Z vanila: just cons (car s) onto every list in rest
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2014-05-13T16:33:12Z pjb: DrDuck: so the way to approach the problem would be 1- to write down what the subsets function should return, in English.  2- to write down what the subsets function should return, in mathematics.  3- to write down what the subsets function should return, in scheme.  4- compare and determine the difference between the output of 3- and the given code, and produce the difference bound to <??>.
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2014-05-13T16:33:28Z pjb: DrDuck: what should subsets return?
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2014-05-13T16:50:57Z DrDuck: pjb: 1 - If s is a set, subsets should return the power set of s.
2014-05-13T16:51:18Z pjb: Right.  So how do you define it mathematically?
2014-05-13T16:51:36Z DrDuck: pjb: 2 - Let s = { a1,a2,...,ak} where ai is a subset for s.
2014-05-13T16:51:57Z pjb: This is the notation where ai is an element of s.  Why do you say a subset?
2014-05-13T16:51:58Z DrDuck: pjb: 3 - A list where elements are lists that are all subsets of s should be returned.
2014-05-13T16:52:13Z pjb: Let's stay at mathematics for now.
2014-05-13T16:52:41Z pjb: If you have a set s = { a1,a2,...,ak}, where ai are elements, how do you find the set of subsets of s?
2014-05-13T16:53:03Z pjb: Let's take a simple case: if s = {}, what's the set of subsets?
2014-05-13T16:54:46Z DrDuck: the empty set {}
2014-05-13T16:54:53Z ashp: I am jealous of you for being on 2.32, I'm still beating my head against 1.19 unable to even understand the question, yet alone the answer.
2014-05-13T16:55:12Z DrDuck: p(s) is the set of all subsets of s, including the empty set
2014-05-13T16:55:22Z pjb: DrDuck: It's indeed a set containing only the empty set: {{}}, which is different from just the empty set {}.
2014-05-13T16:55:44Z pjb: So (subsets {}) = {{}} ; that's already something big!
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2014-05-13T16:56:40Z pjb: Because now, we can assume that given a set s = { a1,a2,...,ak} , we can compute (subsets s-{a1}).
2014-05-13T16:57:42Z pjb: So if we can find an expression of (subsets s) using only a1 and (subsets a-{a1}) we're good, we'll have a mathematical recursive definition of subsets.
2014-05-13T16:57:57Z pjb: Can you do that?
2014-05-13T16:58:07Z DrDuck: (subsets a-{a1})?
2014-05-13T16:58:27Z pjb: (subsets s-{a1}) sorry.
2014-05-13T16:59:11Z DrDuck: I missed what (subsets s-{a1}) is supposed to mean :o
2014-05-13T16:59:36Z pjb: s-{a1} is the set that contains all elements of s, but a1.
2014-05-13T16:59:52Z DrDuck: ohh yeah ok
2014-05-13T17:00:13Z pjb: (subsets s-{a1}) ⊂ (subsets s)
2014-05-13T17:00:36Z pjb: so we already have a good part of the subsets of s.  We are only missing the subsets of s that contain a1.  How can we compute them?
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2014-05-13T17:02:18Z pjb: Well, I say "compute" here, I'd mean "define", it's maths :-)
2014-05-13T17:02:47Z DrDuck: Oh
2014-05-13T17:03:19Z pjb: For example, you have {1 2 3}  s-{1} = {2 3}  (subsets {2 3}) = { {} {2} {3} {2 3} }  How can we find (subsets {1 2 3}) ?
2014-05-13T17:03:44Z pjb: We know that  (subsets {1 2 3}) = { {} {2} {3} {2 3}  … plus some more subsets containing 1 }
2014-05-13T17:04:08Z pjb: That is, (subsets {1 2 3}) = (subsets {2 3}) ∪ { subsets containing 1 }.
2014-05-13T17:04:17Z pjb: The question is to find them.
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2014-05-13T17:05:16Z pjb: Given, {1 2 3}, you can give (subsets {1 2 3}), it's {{} {1} {2} {3} {1 2} {1 3} {2 3} {1 2 3}} right?
2014-05-13T17:05:30Z DrDuck: right
2014-05-13T17:05:38Z pjb: So (subsets {1 2 3}) - (subsets {2 3}) is what we want an expression for.
2014-05-13T17:06:07Z pjb: (subsets {1 2 3}) - (subsets {2 3}) = {{} {1} {2} {3} {1 2} {1 3} {2 3} {1 2 3}} - { {} {2} {3} {2 3} }  = { {1} {1 2} {1 3} {1 2 3} } right?
2014-05-13T17:06:20Z pjb: Do you notice something about { {1} {1 2} {1 3} {1 2 3} } ?
2014-05-13T17:06:46Z jusss: {}
2014-05-13T17:07:17Z pjb: (subsets {1 2 3}) - (subsets {2 3}) ; since {} ∈ (subsets {2 3}) we can't have {} in (subsets {1 2 3}) - (subsets {2 3}).
2014-05-13T17:07:35Z pjb: It's the set difference operation.
2014-05-13T17:08:09Z pjb: DrDuck: another hint is to remember it's called _power_ set.
2014-05-13T17:08:28Z jusss: i mean {} is a subset of every set, math
2014-05-13T17:08:38Z DrDuck: the only thing i notice about { {1} {1 2} {1 3} {1 2 3} } is that the subsets {2 3} and { } are missing
2014-05-13T17:08:52Z pjb: and {2} and {3}.
2014-05-13T17:08:56Z DrDuck: yes
2014-05-13T17:09:16Z pjb: Good.
2014-05-13T17:09:54Z pjb: Let's try another example.  Let's see (subsets {2 3}) = {{} {2} {3} {2 3}} vs. (subsets {3}) = {{} {3}}
2014-05-13T17:10:12Z pjb:  (subsets {2 3}) - (subsets {3}) = {{2} {2 3}}
2014-05-13T17:10:15Z pjb: Do you notice something?
2014-05-13T17:10:57Z pjb: Remember, we want to find an expression of (subsets {2 3}) in function of (subsets {3}).
2014-05-13T17:11:49Z pjb: So from the set difference equation, we could say that: (subsets {2 3}) = {{2} {2 3}} ∪ (subsets {3})  ; but we need to find a formula for  {{2} {2 3}}  that depends only on 2 and {3}.
2014-05-13T17:12:44Z pjb: With {3}, we have (subsets {3}) = {{} {3}} so we can also write our formula depending on 2, {3} and {{} {3}} = (subsets {3}), to get {{2} {2 3}}.
2014-05-13T17:13:16Z pjb: with 2, we can also find (subsets {2}) = {{} {2}}.
2014-05-13T17:13:49Z pjb: So, 2, {2}, {3}, {{} {3}}, {{} {2}}, how can we combine them to get {{} {2} {3} {2 3}}?
2014-05-13T17:14:11Z DrDuck: union
2014-05-13T17:14:31Z DrDuck: welll
2014-05-13T17:14:32Z DrDuck: no
2014-05-13T17:15:27Z pjb: {{2} {2 3}} is like {{} {3}} but with 2 added to each set right?
2014-05-13T17:15:31Z DrDuck: the union of the sets minus the intersection of the sets
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2014-05-13T17:15:34Z DrDuck: ehh
2014-05-13T17:15:50Z pjb: { {1} {1 2} {1 3} {1 2 3} } is like { {} {2} {3} {2 3} } but with 1 added to each set right?
2014-05-13T17:16:20Z pjb: So indeed, we will use ∪ mathematically as in {1} ∪ {} -> {1}, {1} ∪ {2} -> {1 2}, etc.
2014-05-13T17:16:48Z pjb: (in scheme since the first set is a singleton, we can use (cons 1 subset) which is a simplier operation).
2014-05-13T17:17:53Z pjb: So mathematically, (subsets {x}∪Y) = (subsets Y) ∪  ⋃y∈(subsets Y)  { s | s = {x} ∪ y }
2014-05-13T17:17:53Z pjb:                                        
2014-05-13T17:18:54Z pjb: ⋃ is like Σ, but for sets.
2014-05-13T17:20:14Z pjb: So, for each set y in (subsets Y), we build a set containing only {x}∪y, and take the union of all those sets.
2014-05-13T17:20:42Z pjb: which translates to scheme as (map (lambda (y) (cons x y)) (subsets Y))
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2014-05-13T17:21:46Z pjb: and (subsets Y) ∪ … translates to (append (subsets Y) …) so we get (append (subsets Y) (map (lambda (y) (cons x y)) (subsets Y))) ; rename the variables, (rest = (subsets (cdr s)) x = (car s) and that's it.
2014-05-13T17:21:57Z pjb: See http://paste.lisp.org/+31Z6
2014-05-13T17:22:55Z DrDuck: o dear
2014-05-13T17:24:28Z pjb: You can also build {{} {1} {2} {1 2}} with the an operation like the cartesian product where we use ∪ instead of making a couple: {{} {1}} × {{} {2}} = { {}∪{} {1}∪{} {}∪{2} {1}∪{2} } = {{} {1} {2} {1 2}
2014-05-13T17:25:01Z pjb: so the power set {a1 .. an}  = {{} {a1}} × … × {{} {an}}
2014-05-13T17:26:18Z pjb: But since we always have a singleton on the left side, it's easier to separate {{}}×(subsets Y) in (subsets Y) ∪  ⋃y∈(subsets Y)  { s | s = {x} ∪ y }
2014-05-13T17:26:34Z pjb: {{}} is the neutral element for this × operation.
2014-05-13T17:27:08Z DrDuck: the notation (subsets Y) ∪  ⋃y∈(subsets Y), sorry
2014-05-13T17:27:19Z DrDuck: could you explain that :D
2014-05-13T17:27:56Z pjb: Actually, in ⋃y∈(subsets Y) {s|s={x}∪y}    y∈(subsets Y) should be written below the ⋃.
2014-05-13T17:28:24Z pjb: It's similar to Σi∈{1,2,3} x^i  = x^1+x^2+x^3
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2014-05-13T17:28:53Z pjb: where i∈{1,2,3} would also be written below Σ
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2014-05-13T17:29:14Z DrDuck: ⋃_{y∈(subsets Y)}
2014-05-13T17:29:15Z DrDuck: got it
2014-05-13T17:29:21Z pjb: Yes.
2014-05-13T17:29:36Z pjb: ⋃y∈{1 2 3} {x*y}  = {x*1} ∪ {x*2} ∪ {x*3}
2014-05-13T17:30:00Z DrDuck: yes
2014-05-13T17:30:08Z DrDuck: okay got that cleared
2014-05-13T17:30:28Z pjb: There's a little trick when converting this into scheme.
2014-05-13T17:31:06Z pjb: Since we represent sets as list, and each of the sets in this n-ary union are singleton, we can use map to return just a list of elements:
2014-05-13T17:31:17Z pjb:  {x*1} ∪ {x*2} ∪ {x*3} =  {x*1 x*2 x*3}
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2014-05-13T17:32:03Z pjb: If we had a n-ary union of sets of different cardinality, we would have to flatten the list of list returned by map.
2014-05-13T17:33:40Z pjb: Or we could define a function like mapcan in Common Lisp, which builds the result by concatenating the lists.
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2014-05-13T18:01:47Z DrDuck: pjb:
2014-05-13T18:01:59Z DrDuck: i just want to clarify on notation
2014-05-13T18:02:23Z DrDuck: for the mathematical definition, is this what you meant in the paste: http://mathb.in/16553
2014-05-13T18:03:01Z DrDuck: because it seems like P(Y)U isnt necessary
2014-05-13T18:04:09Z DrDuck: just U_{y in P(Y)} {s|s={x} U y} seems gave me the power set
2014-05-13T18:04:18Z DrDuck: just trying to follow along with what you said slowly
2014-05-13T18:05:13Z DrDuck: so in otherwords this gave me the power set: http://mathb.in/16554
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2014-05-13T18:06:20Z DrDuck: o dear
2014-05-13T18:06:30Z DrDuck: why is this book doing this to me
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2014-05-13T18:16:38Z pjb: You need P(Y)∪ to provide the subsets that don't contain x!
2014-05-13T18:17:38Z pjb: Including {} which is returned in (subsets {}) -> {{}}, since {x}∪y is never {}.
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2014-05-13T18:21:39Z pjb: DrDuck: yes, I gave you the power set.  The lesson here, is that half the programming is just writing down the definitions (and transcribing them into a "programming" language).
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2014-05-13T19:42:15Z Kasayarou: [from ~10.5 hours ago] taylanub: that sounds exactly backwards. A destructuring lambda is exactly that -- *de*structuring -- so from the lambda-body's perspective, the arguments aren't in the original tree.
2014-05-13T19:45:46Z taylanub: Kasayarou: the destructuring must happen at run-time unless the compiler has information about the procedure that will be called
2014-05-13T19:47:25Z taylanub: but I don't know how this compares to non-destructuring lambdas, it might just be a trivial difference
2014-05-13T19:47:55Z taylanub needs to learn how rest-args are handled in compiled Scheme code
2014-05-13T19:54:16Z Kasayarou: Mm. I admit I don't know about compiled Scheme specifically, but R6RS notes that "In Scheme, unlike some other Lisp implementations, the list to which a rest parameter is bound is always freshly allocated." so I would assume that, unless it can be optimized away by analysis of the procedure, the list is actually constructed...
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2014-05-13T19:58:20Z taylanub: Yes, rest-argument lists are normally allocated; their use is discouraged in speed-bottleneck situations for that reason, and `case-lambda' recommended as an alternative.
2014-05-13T20:01:11Z Kasayarou: Although I *think* I may effectively have to construct the argument list anyway, due to possible interruption and multiple resumption by continuations. (I hope I'm mistaken, but I have come to the conclusion that probably the only way I'm ever going to understand delimited continuations is by implementing them.)
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2014-05-13T20:03:09Z Kasayarou: (Also, shame on me: that quote wasn't from R6RS, but from the MIT Scheme docs.)
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2014-05-14T01:53:52Z rptx-slack: hi everybody!
2014-05-14T01:55:06Z rptx-slack: I'm going through SICP, it is my first programming book. I go to the section about the picture language, but it seems that functions they use are not defined, Can anybody help with this? I am using mit/gnu scheme 9.0.1
2014-05-14T01:55:26Z jcowan: You might want to use Racket, as it has a SICP mode.
2014-05-14T01:56:44Z rptx-slack: Is there a way to do it in mit-scheme?
2014-05-14T01:57:15Z rptx-slack: sorry to insist, I'm just wondering.
2014-05-14T02:02:50Z jcowan: I think you want to load http://www.cs.cmu.edu/afs/cs/project/ai-repository/ai/lang/scheme/impl/mit_scm/sicp/sicp.tgz
2014-05-14T02:02:51Z rudybot: http://tinyurl.com/p3jbs84
2014-05-14T02:04:18Z rptx-slack: ok, thanks! I'll try that. I started compiling racket also.
2014-05-14T02:04:36Z jcowan: You probably want to load a precompiled Racket if you need it before tomorrow.
2014-05-14T02:06:07Z rptx-slack: hahahah! I use slackware, and well, got it from slackbuilds.com
2014-05-14T02:06:37Z jcowan: The linux version should work on any distro.
2014-05-14T02:07:34Z rptx-slack: yeah, of course, but in this way, I can use the package tools, Im not hurried
2014-05-14T02:08:36Z jcowan nods.
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2014-05-14T02:10:48Z rptx-slack: followed the readme of the package I downloaded from your link, and it uses a `make-system` procedure which gives unbound variable
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2014-05-14T02:12:49Z rptx-slack: seems, I'm gonna have to wait then.
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2014-05-14T02:43:21Z jcowan: Okay.  Or download the binary and install it in a single directory (which is supported) rather than /usr/local/this-n-that.
2014-05-14T02:43:32Z jcowan: With it in a single directory, it's easy to discard later.
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2014-05-14T03:16:47Z rptx-slack: done, it's compiled.
2014-05-14T03:16:56Z rptx-slack: hahahaah, took long enough
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2014-05-14T03:22:00Z rptx-slack: jcowan: well, again thanks for your help today. Gonna sleep now. I'll continue tomorrow.
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2014-05-14T12:23:07Z vanila: is there a garbage collector that would be good enough to write an OS in lisp with?
2014-05-14T12:23:18Z vanila: so htat you wouldn't have pauses and hiccups
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2014-05-14T12:25:44Z ecraven: yes
2014-05-14T12:29:35Z vanila: what is it
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2014-05-14T12:35:01Z jewel: haha
2014-05-14T12:35:07Z jewel: vanila, you need to do some reading
2014-05-14T12:37:23Z vanila: why is everyone shit to me
2014-05-14T12:38:32Z ecraven: vanila: google for garbage collectors, most of them would work, if you take care not to cons too much memory during critical parts
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2014-05-14T12:45:54Z vanila: I don't understand why it's okay for other people to ask beginner questions and they get lots of nice people helping them a lot. How is it you're instantly able to tell that im some horrible person who doesn't deserve any help but only to be laughed at from just two lines I wrote?
2014-05-14T12:50:45Z ecraven: vanila: you aren't, but that question can't be answered as "go there and use that". it is much too broad
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2014-05-14T14:23:59Z taylanub: does R6RS have no `include' or the like?..  trying to make R6RS *and* R7RS libraries for a set of RnRS-agnostic "body" files
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2014-05-14T14:26:09Z taylanub: uh, maybe I should just go forth and assume that all useful implementations will support `include' anyway
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2014-05-14T14:35:20Z samth: taylanub: also, r6rs makes it easy to implement include
2014-05-14T14:35:26Z samth: i think it's given as an example in the spec
2014-05-14T14:37:10Z DrDuck: Is there anyway I can get the mit-scheme debugger to show output like the output given at the bottom half of this page: http://community.schemewiki.org/?sicp-ex-2.32
2014-05-14T14:37:13Z taylanub: thanks for the tip.  I'll postpone that until someone wants to use my library on an R6RS implementation without `include'  (i.e. "never" :P)
2014-05-14T14:37:17Z DrDuck: Is that what a tracer does?
2014-05-14T14:37:36Z DrDuck: Well, a proper tracer.
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2014-05-14T14:38:07Z taylanub: that looks kind of like trace output, yes
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2014-05-14T14:39:14Z DrDuck: mit-scheme does not do this. -.-
2014-05-14T14:40:25Z ecraven: DrDuck: MIT/GNU Scheme shows trace output if you do (trace <function>), but not as nice as that shown
2014-05-14T14:41:11Z DrDuck: wonder what scheme that guy was using to be able to trace his program so prettily
2014-05-14T14:43:01Z ecraven: it might have been written by hand
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2014-05-14T15:05:14Z taylanub: foof-loop is neat; what was the alternative to it again?  (also something non-standard, not `do' or named-let or anything)
2014-05-14T15:06:44Z davexunit: taylanub: srfi-42?
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2014-05-14T15:08:02Z taylanub: that was probably it, thanks
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2014-05-14T15:19:50Z BitPuffin: hmm to be fair with ml/haskell syntax I CAN define an operator called *x
2014-05-14T15:20:31Z BitPuffin: however I feel like the syntax might be less fitting for meta programming stuff
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2014-05-14T15:20:38Z BitPuffin: and is often hard to decipher
2014-05-14T15:20:46Z BitPuffin: wait wrong channel
2014-05-14T15:20:48Z BitPuffin: :P
2014-05-14T15:21:10Z BitPuffin: XD
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2014-05-14T17:39:39Z vinek: I don't really understand the point of SRFI-19 and I hope someone can enlighten me.  For instance, why have two separate time/date types that seem to represent the same thing?  And why are there arithmetic operations only on one of them?  There doesn't seem to be any convient way of, for example, finding the date eight weeks from now.  I could write the code to do that, but then I don't know what benefit am I getting from  using the
2014-05-14T17:39:39Z vinek: SRFI-19 API...
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2014-05-14T17:42:58Z LeoNerd: Date arithmetic can be highly complex
2014-05-14T17:43:28Z LeoNerd: Once you get beyond hours, adding/subtracting larger quantities doesn't necessarily match people's expectations
2014-05-14T17:44:49Z vinek: Example?
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2014-05-14T17:46:48Z vinek: For example, because it creates a special time type, you can't do arithmetic without going through the special time-difference, add-duration, and subtract-duration functions.
2014-05-14T17:47:41Z vinek: What I want for finding the date eight weeks from now is to add the time-duration of a week (seven days) and multiply that be eight.  But this isn't very convenient to do.
2014-05-14T17:47:57Z LeoNerd: Yeah.. consider DST changes
2014-05-14T17:48:24Z LeoNerd: If a DST offset occurs between now and then, will adding 8 weeks to now give the same numerical hour, or will it take accoutn of the 1 hour advance/receed of time?
2014-05-14T17:49:08Z LeoNerd: E.g. the UK changes the clocks at the (first) occurance of 2am.. Either the hour 2am->2:59:59 is missing, or we get it twice. What would happen if you added 8 weeks, onto a time that was 02:30
2014-05-14T17:49:29Z LeoNerd: There is a day of the year in which 02:30 does not happen; there is another day in the year when it happens twice
2014-05-14T17:49:35Z LeoNerd: Basically - humans make time awkward ;)
2014-05-14T17:49:58Z vinek: Okay.  I think that explains why there is time arithmetic but no date arithmetic.
2014-05-14T17:51:00Z vinek: Hmm...actually not sure.
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2014-05-14T17:53:57Z vinek: I think sometimes you want to treat a time-duration as a discrete amount of time, and sometimes you only want to treat in a conventional way.
2014-05-14T17:55:18Z vinek: Like with leap years and leap seconds.  10,000 conventional years might only encompass 9,997 physical years.
2014-05-14T17:56:05Z LeoNerd: Well, if you don't care about lining up the "human visible" fields and so on, there's no need for special objects
2014-05-14T17:56:22Z LeoNerd: If you just want to consider that an hour is 86400 seconds, and so on... you can just work with unix epoch time values
2014-05-14T17:57:14Z LeoNerd: I honestly find that unix epoch values, plus the occasional localtime/mktime or gmtime/timegm roundtrip is quite sufficient for any kind of calculation, apart from diff calculations
2014-05-14T17:57:33Z vinek: Okay, further question...why does SRFI-19 only feature addition and subtraction?  Is it because scheme is minimalist and doesn't standardize on an object system (in other words...because itwould be too complex and still incomplete to add all the different mathematical operations programmers might want to perform on time)?
2014-05-14T17:57:55Z LeoNerd: What other operations would you want?
2014-05-14T17:58:16Z LeoNerd: The only other interesting cases I can think of would be multiplying or dividing a duration by a scalar
2014-05-14T17:58:23Z vraaid: > < and =
2014-05-14T17:58:25Z LeoNerd: There isn't very much else that makes sense
2014-05-14T17:58:42Z LeoNerd: Oh I see; doesn't it define relational operators?
2014-05-14T17:58:44Z vinek: Multiplication...eight weeks would be 8 times time-duration of 7 days.
2014-05-14T17:59:14Z vinek: It has relational operators.
2014-05-14T17:59:15Z vraaid: time types are reference points, not intervals, aren't they?
2014-05-14T17:59:42Z vinek: vraaid: There is actually a special type for duration.
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2014-05-14T18:00:05Z vraid: vinek: oh, and there's no multiplication on it?
2014-05-14T18:00:10Z vinek: no
2014-05-14T18:00:22Z vinek: It's a special type so you can't just use * and friends.
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2014-05-14T18:00:44Z LeoNerd: Multiplication is the generalisation of repeated self-addition
2014-05-14T18:00:57Z LeoNerd: You can't meaningfully add two instants in time
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2014-05-14T18:01:23Z vinek: LeoNerd: Right.  Except you should be able to with durations.
2014-05-14T18:01:38Z LeoNerd: Indeed; durations sure
2014-05-14T18:02:17Z vinek: There is time-utc and time-duration.
2014-05-14T18:03:17Z vinek: Maybe part of the problem is with fractions of a duration with regard to leap seconds.
2014-05-14T18:04:10Z vinek: It has both time-utc and time-tai, and the manual says that the difference is that in time-utc the clock "pauses" for two seconds during a leap second.
2014-05-14T18:04:24Z LeoNerd: Ahyes...
2014-05-14T18:04:31Z LeoNerd: TAI, UTC, UT0, UT1, GMT,...
2014-05-14T18:04:35Z LeoNerd: Such fun concepts :)
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2014-05-14T18:09:31Z vinek: Heh...you really are a nerd :)
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2014-05-14T18:14:40Z David191212: hi!
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2014-05-14T18:17:22Z vinek: hi
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2014-05-14T18:34:47Z DrDuck: the sicp lectures completely skip 2.2.2 and 2.2.3
2014-05-14T18:34:53Z DrDuck: wtf
2014-05-14T18:37:32Z antoszka: The videos are *much* older than the current edition of the book.
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2014-05-15T00:19:03Z aretecode: In CSS, what is the term for the definition "The group of all Rule Set(s)" ?
2014-05-15T00:25:42Z sethalves: just make something up.  everyone else does
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2014-05-15T10:50:25Z Steverman: so I'm trying to refer to the second last element in a list of unknown length
2014-05-15T10:51:03Z Steverman:  (list-ref (reverse v) 1)
2014-05-15T10:51:22Z Steverman: that should do it right?
2014-05-15T10:52:40Z Steverman: I mean it works but I'm not sure if there would be any problems later
2014-05-15T10:53:57Z vraid: make sure that the list is at least of length 2, and it should do
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2014-05-15T10:55:16Z Steverman: alright
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2014-05-15T11:17:25Z Steverman: I'm trying to implement the BNF of a subset of Scheme and it's hard :)
2014-05-15T11:17:27Z Steverman: :(*
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2014-05-15T11:44:12Z hkBst: Steverman, SEXP := (SEXP*) | ATOM, ATOM := NUMBER | STRING, something like that?
2014-05-15T11:44:18Z Steverman: yes
2014-05-15T11:44:34Z Steverman: http://users-cs.au.dk/danvy/dProgSprog/Lecture-notes/week-19.html#exercise-6
2014-05-15T11:44:36Z rudybot: http://tinyurl.com/md4pnrg
2014-05-15T11:44:37Z Steverman: if you want to see
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2014-05-15T11:46:51Z Steverman: and I can't find out what to write for (is-variable? v)
2014-05-15T11:47:42Z Steverman: for booleans and such is quite easy since you just write (boolean? v)
2014-05-15T11:47:43Z hkBst: a variable is a value that answers #t to the predicate symbol? and that is not a keyword (as defined just below);
2014-05-15T11:47:51Z hkBst: from those notes
2014-05-15T11:48:50Z Steverman: huh, okay
2014-05-15T11:50:46Z hkBst: Steverman, note that in real Scheme there are no keywords...
2014-05-15T11:51:56Z hkBst: or reserved words as they would be called
2014-05-15T11:52:08Z Steverman: I think my TA said that it would be much harder to make a syntax checker for the "whole" Scheme
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2014-05-15T11:58:36Z Steverman: I'm tryimg to implment cond and I'm not sure if it's right
2014-05-15T11:59:56Z Steverman: http://codepad.org/k5miOqVv
2014-05-15T12:03:17Z hkBst: Steverman, note that the else-clause is optional...
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2014-05-15T12:06:00Z Steverman: wait what?
2014-05-15T12:06:02Z hkBst: Steverman, you need to write the checker in this dialect that it recognizes?
2014-05-15T12:06:50Z Steverman: not sure what you mean
2014-05-15T12:07:03Z Steverman: I have to implement that BNF in Scheme
2014-05-15T12:08:52Z hkBst: you have to implement a function that checks whether some string follows that BNF and you have to do it in the dialect specified by that BNF
2014-05-15T12:09:17Z Steverman: ah yes
2014-05-15T12:09:33Z Steverman: that would also mean that I have to check the syntax checker itself
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2014-05-15T12:32:32Z Steverman: how about
2014-05-15T12:32:34Z Steverman: http://codepad.org/rv7FuUIh
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2014-05-15T13:28:33Z amgarching: Are the RHS expressions in the let-form evaluated in order? Even if some of the bound variables are not used? http://pastebin.com/86UV5MW6 I observe "comment-line" being different if I return "rest-of-line" (commented) or do not.
2014-05-15T13:28:35Z Steverman: hkBst,  I see what you mean with optional
2014-05-15T13:28:48Z Steverman: you're looking at the * right?
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2014-05-15T13:34:39Z amgarching: I assume there are no guarantees about argument evaluation order in a function call. Would that mean that the same applies to the let-form?
2014-05-15T13:36:48Z amgarching: what is the idiomatic way of doing what is meant here: (let ((x (read)) (y (read)) (expt x y))
2014-05-15T13:37:03Z fizzie: amgarching: Why assume when you can just check? "The <init>s [of a let construct] are evaluated in the current environment (in some unspecified order), --" (R5RS 4.2.2)
2014-05-15T13:38:38Z hkBst: Steverman, no the []
2014-05-15T13:38:49Z fizzie: You could consider let*, which does them "sequentially from left to right", though it also has that other difference.
2014-05-15T13:39:45Z hkBst: amgarching, the standard specifies that you cannot rely on any order, but some implementation may guarantee an order
2014-05-15T13:40:15Z hkBst: amgarching, let* is sequential and defined in terms of nested let
2014-05-15T13:40:46Z hkBst: fizzie, other difference?
2014-05-15T13:40:51Z amgarching: Ok, let* seems to be the immediate solution and seems to work reliably.
2014-05-15T13:41:19Z amgarching: He means the actual purpose of let*, surely
2014-05-15T13:41:35Z fizzie: Earlier bindings being visible for later ones, yes.
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2014-05-15T13:42:02Z Steverman: lol, is it what it means?!
2014-05-15T13:46:32Z amgarching: Thanks, at least it says they *are* evaluated, R5RS I mean. Nothing about being used or not. Thank you for clarification!
2014-05-15T13:47:26Z hkBst: Steverman, * means 0 or more time, so it is also kind of optional but the [] means 0 or 1 time
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2014-05-15T13:50:17Z jim: is there something else syntaxwise in scheme besides ( ) . and atoms?
2014-05-15T13:51:22Z jim: and " for strings
2014-05-15T13:51:48Z hkBst: jim, there is if you want to check for valid _programs_ and predefine a lot of syntax
2014-05-15T13:52:01Z hkBst: like lambda, cond, ...
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2014-05-15T13:52:32Z jim: cond and if would be special forms
2014-05-15T13:52:47Z oleo: morning
2014-05-15T13:53:07Z jim: as they need to be free to -not- evaluate some exprs in them
2014-05-15T13:55:21Z jim: I see your point... but isn't some of that handled by the reader?
2014-05-15T13:57:25Z fizzie: The quote and quasiquote abbreviations, at least.
2014-05-15T13:58:43Z hkBst: jim, <Steverman> http://users-cs.au.dk/danvy/dProgSprog/Lecture-notes/week-19.html#exercise-6
2014-05-15T13:58:43Z rudybot: http://tinyurl.com/md4pnrg
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2014-05-15T14:01:18Z jim: oh ok, I see... so the exercise is to maybe build a parser at least
2014-05-15T14:02:04Z jim: and it looks like he doesn't need to implement the semantics
2014-05-15T14:02:17Z Steverman: rofl
2014-05-15T14:02:32Z Steverman: okay okay
2014-05-15T14:02:53Z jim: yeah, didn't know it was your homework :)
2014-05-15T14:03:16Z Steverman: I have no idea what I'm doing
2014-05-15T14:04:17Z jim: one thing, scheme itself is not "regular" in terms of its grammar
2014-05-15T14:04:32Z jim: but some of its pieces are
2014-05-15T14:04:57Z jim: like atoms
2014-05-15T14:05:54Z jim: well atoms might be regular, altho it seems like they can be anything
2014-05-15T14:06:12Z jim: do you understand this part?
2014-05-15T14:06:28Z Steverman: not really
2014-05-15T14:07:52Z jim: what I'm saying is that dcheme itself as a language doesn't use a regular grammar to describe it
2014-05-15T14:08:32Z jim: so (for example) you woudn't use regexps to do all of the parsing
2014-05-15T14:09:13Z Steverman: mmh
2014-05-15T14:09:32Z jim: but some pieces of scheme (like maybe atoms) you can use a regexp for
2014-05-15T14:10:09Z jim: your parsing for if might look like...
2014-05-15T14:10:23Z jim: get the (
2014-05-15T14:10:28Z jim: get the if
2014-05-15T14:10:42Z jim: call the thing that gets a whole expression
2014-05-15T14:10:44Z jim: call the thing that gets a whole expression
2014-05-15T14:10:51Z jim: get the )
2014-05-15T14:12:04Z Steverman: I don't think I ever looked at the parentheses
2014-05-15T14:13:07Z jim: another way of looking at it is when given as input (if something something)
2014-05-15T14:13:09Z leppie: yeah, totally optional ;p
2014-05-15T14:13:45Z jim: you won't know you're doing if until you see (if ... )
2014-05-15T14:14:19Z jim: once you do know, you get two expressions and you're done parsing that
2014-05-15T14:15:22Z jim: so you're putting little pieces of the scheme together by using littoe programs to handle things
2014-05-15T14:15:39Z Steverman: here's a little snippet of "if"
2014-05-15T14:15:42Z Steverman: http://codepad.org/qCaXaJue
2014-05-15T14:15:48Z Steverman: along with other procedures
2014-05-15T14:15:55Z Steverman: this is what the lecturer gave me
2014-05-15T14:16:52Z jim: oh ok, not your code?
2014-05-15T14:17:47Z Steverman: so I just ran (check-expression '(if e1 e2 e3))
2014-05-15T14:17:48Z Steverman: then it's true
2014-05-15T14:18:13Z Steverman: well, he gave me a unfinished template to work on
2014-05-15T14:18:50Z Steverman: I've done something similar for the missing implemetations
2014-05-15T14:19:35Z Steverman: you can get the template as well
2014-05-15T14:20:01Z Steverman: http://users-cs.au.dk/danvy/dProgSprog14/Supplementary-material/syntax-checker-template.scm
2014-05-15T14:20:01Z rudybot: http://tinyurl.com/oq8u2pf
2014-05-15T14:21:35Z jim: what's e3?
2014-05-15T14:21:46Z Steverman: just typed anything
2014-05-15T14:22:09Z jim: oh, I meant what's the third thing in an if?
2014-05-15T14:22:40Z Steverman: I followed this
2014-05-15T14:22:42Z Steverman: <if-expression>         ::= (if <expression> <expression> <expression>)
2014-05-15T14:23:32Z Steverman: and it's a variable I guess?
2014-05-15T14:23:33Z jim: yeah, got that part... I've just never seen an if with three exprs
2014-05-15T14:23:57Z jim: well maybe not so important
2014-05-15T14:24:14Z Steverman: the first expression is the test I guess
2014-05-15T14:24:28Z jim: right, forgot about that part
2014-05-15T14:25:21Z Steverman: but how do I make the accessor for and?
2014-05-15T14:25:25Z jim: so notice that in particular if has a structure that has three things
2014-05-15T14:25:34Z Steverman: it's either and itself or something optional
2014-05-15T14:25:50Z Steverman: 0 or more expressions
2014-05-15T14:26:15Z jim: I guess you'd write a loop or a recursion
2014-05-15T14:26:36Z jim: as long as there are more expressions, just swallow them up
2014-05-15T14:27:13Z Steverman: that's what I thought
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2014-05-15T14:27:31Z jim: whereas for if you;d just write three calls to check-expressions?
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2014-05-15T14:28:40Z Steverman: hmm? The expressions can have some other expression such as a variable and whatnot
2014-05-15T14:28:46Z Steverman: and that has to be checked as well
2014-05-15T14:29:12Z jim: but isn't that the business of check-expressions?
2014-05-15T14:30:05Z Steverman: well, you could've written the "check-if-expression" within check-expression
2014-05-15T14:30:35Z jim: plus, if you look at scheme itself, when you have the input to scheme
2014-05-15T14:30:49Z jim: what can you type to scheme...
2014-05-15T14:30:52Z jim: a number
2014-05-15T14:31:00Z jim: a variable
2014-05-15T14:31:04Z jim: a combination
2014-05-15T14:31:41Z jim: (which is a list with the first thing being the function name and the rest being the args
2014-05-15T14:32:15Z Steverman: not sure what you are getting at
2014-05-15T14:33:12Z jim: when you're looking at a real scheme, that you yourself are typing at,
2014-05-15T14:33:25Z jim: usually you see one of those three things
2014-05-15T14:34:15Z jim: so your check-expression would go down the line checking for each of those things
2014-05-15T14:34:30Z Steverman: yes
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2014-05-15T14:35:54Z jim: so I guess the assignment is to make a check-expression that can parse a subset of scheme
2014-05-15T14:36:19Z Steverman: yeah
2014-05-15T14:36:39Z jim: and as you might imagine, that's going to be cond-like
2014-05-15T14:37:19Z Steverman: when you say parse, you also mean a syntax checker
2014-05-15T14:37:46Z jim: yes, I think from the wording that's all they want
2014-05-15T14:38:13Z Steverman: I have to parse the program itself if it's correct
2014-05-15T14:38:22Z jim: when they say "Implerment the BNF of ..."
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2014-05-15T14:40:35Z jim: so your check-expression is gonna have a cond, and each thing in the cond is going to test for a different piece
2014-05-15T14:40:47Z jim: like if, cond, etc
2014-05-15T14:41:05Z Steverman: yeah
2014-05-15T14:41:10Z Steverman: there already is one
2014-05-15T14:41:13Z Steverman: I just have to expand that one
2014-05-15T14:41:44Z jim: maybe by adding things to the cond
2014-05-15T14:42:09Z Steverman: that's what I meant :)
2014-05-15T14:42:25Z Steverman: but I also have to write the different pieces
2014-05-15T14:43:26Z jim: and look at how some of the existing pieces are written
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2014-05-15T14:43:50Z Steverman: http://codepad.org/R7YV4917
2014-05-15T14:43:56Z Steverman: here is my and implementation
2014-05-15T14:44:12Z jim: does it work?
2014-05-15T14:44:27Z Steverman: no idea
2014-05-15T14:44:37Z Steverman: I have to write that check part
2014-05-15T14:44:50Z jim: oh,, ok
2014-05-15T14:46:08Z Steverman: oh.. so I have to make my "and" accessor variadic?
2014-05-15T14:46:16Z Steverman: I think it is
2014-05-15T14:46:44Z jim: I dunno what varadic or and accessor is :)
2014-05-15T14:47:07Z jim: but I did want to make one observation...
2014-05-15T14:47:18Z Steverman: okay
2014-05-15T14:47:38Z Steverman: variadic means it can take any number of arguments
2014-05-15T14:48:37Z Steverman: if you look at the "if" piece
2014-05-15T14:48:40Z Steverman: it has 3 accessors
2014-05-15T14:49:06Z Steverman: because it must have 3 expressions
2014-05-15T14:49:16Z Steverman: and I'm not sure about "and"
2014-05-15T14:49:38Z jim: you should be able to use this thing check-expression within the code any place an expression is valid
2014-05-15T14:50:04Z jim: like, the if one should have three, right?
2014-05-15T14:50:11Z Steverman: yes
2014-05-15T14:50:18Z Steverman: should I make 2 accessors?
2014-05-15T14:50:25Z Steverman: oh no
2014-05-15T14:50:57Z jim: I'm just saying, it's kinda a recursive idea
2014-05-15T14:51:02Z Steverman: aha
2014-05-15T14:51:18Z jim: that this thing you're making, check-expression
2014-05-15T14:51:35Z jim: can use itself any place an expression can come
2014-05-15T14:51:48Z DrDuck: I saw this footnote mentioned in SICP today: http://mitpress.mit.edu/sicp/full-text/book/book-Z-H-15.html#%_idx_1760
2014-05-15T14:51:52Z DrDuck: Is the fact that many programs can be viewed in terms of maps, filters, and accumulations important to languages outside of scheme/lisp? Why?
2014-05-15T14:52:26Z DrDuck: Are those conventional interfaces used in other languages as well?
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2014-05-15T14:53:09Z Steverman: so I should call check-expression on (cdr v)
2014-05-15T14:53:47Z Steverman: wait wait
2014-05-15T14:54:07Z jim: if (cdr v) is expected to be an expression, yes
2014-05-15T14:54:51Z Steverman: http://codepad.org/WwaQ7qIp
2014-05-15T14:54:53Z Steverman: line 71
2014-05-15T14:55:29Z Steverman: maybe I should make the accessor recursive
2014-05-15T14:56:51Z Steverman: right.. I forgot to finish check-expression :>
2014-05-15T14:57:32Z Steverman: something like
2014-05-15T14:57:35Z Steverman: [(is-and? v)
2014-05-15T14:57:37Z Steverman:        (check-and-expression (and-x v))]
2014-05-15T14:58:03Z Steverman: this is confusing me more and more
2014-05-15T14:58:09Z Steverman: the "if" example makes sense
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2014-05-15T14:59:26Z jim: when you see a recursive call and you're trying to understand the code around it, sometiimes it helps to itnore the recursions
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2014-05-15T15:22:17Z Steverman: bah
2014-05-15T15:27:48Z Steverman: I will do this in an hour
2014-05-15T15:27:49Z Steverman: otta go
2014-05-15T15:27:51Z Steverman: gotta go
2014-05-15T15:27:55Z Steverman: frustrating stuff
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2014-05-15T17:31:00Z Steverman: okay
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2014-05-15T17:59:15Z Steverman: I still can't figure it out
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2014-05-15T18:21:33Z Steverman: jim? :D
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2014-05-15T20:10:58Z Steverman: anyone else wanna take a look at my scheme syntax checker exercise?
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2014-05-15T23:57:07Z Husmor: hey, does anyone here have experience with the metacircular evaluator?
2014-05-15T23:58:18Z Husmor is now known as Lundgren
2014-05-15T23:59:18Z brianmwaters: Husmor: lol, which one?
2014-05-15T23:59:54Z Lundgren: brianwaters: the one in sicp :p didnt know there are more
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2014-05-16T00:01:02Z Husmor: trying to figure out how on earth the if works, or more precise hows its built up. Trying to code a custom version of it for a task
2014-05-16T00:02:10Z brianmwaters: it's a general technique. you can write one however you like.
2014-05-16T00:03:49Z brianmwaters: Husmor: I really want to know, what practical task do you have that you need a meta-circular scheme interpreter for!??!?! sounds awesome!
2014-05-16T00:04:49Z Husmor: brianmwaters: haha its nothing "exciting" just university classwork, its been pretty fun so far but ive hit a wall with this if thing :p
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2014-05-16T00:06:03Z brianmwaters: do you have a more specific question about the "if"? i could go out to the car and get my sicp...
2014-05-16T00:09:15Z Husmor: brianmwaters: atm i dont think so, still lurking around with the code trying to understand it. Getting a "firmer" grasp by the minute :p
2014-05-16T00:09:25Z Husmor: i will probably be back haha
2014-05-16T00:10:25Z brianmwaters: good luck then. just sleep on it if you hit a wall. no use smashing your head.
2014-05-16T00:10:41Z Husmor: dont have time for sleep :D gonna be up all night
2014-05-16T00:10:48Z brianmwaters: NOOO
2014-05-16T00:11:20Z Husmor: this shits gotta be in by tomorrow .. luckily i got a friend coding with me
2014-05-16T00:11:48Z Husmor: he just had a breakthrough :D
2014-05-16T00:11:55Z brianmwaters: where do you go that's using SICP?
2014-05-16T00:12:17Z Husmor: University of Oslo
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2014-05-16T00:12:28Z Husmor: is using SICP a good or bad thing? :p
2014-05-16T00:12:35Z brianmwaters: awesome. you're lucky. you could be doing "OO" in java.
2014-05-16T00:12:47Z brianmwaters: </cheap jab>
2014-05-16T00:12:49Z Husmor: xD
2014-05-16T00:13:09Z Husmor: this semester im coding in java, scheme and c :P so the remembering all the syntax is hell atm lol
2014-05-16T00:13:33Z brianmwaters: you'll get used to it. at least scheme has very little.
2014-05-16T00:13:46Z Husmor: yeah, scheme is my favorite "easy" language so far
2014-05-16T00:13:58Z brianmwaters: scheme is easy?!?!?!
2014-05-16T00:14:06Z Husmor: note the " marks lol
2014-05-16T00:14:16Z jaiguerr: Husmor: if you write enough of it, you'll start doing prefixes in C and Java
2014-05-16T00:14:24Z jaiguerr: *prefix notation
2014-05-16T00:15:10Z brianmwaters: ...or start writing CPS in JavaScript, then realizing you don't have tail-call elminiation and starting over.
2014-05-16T00:15:20Z jaiguerr: hahahahaha
2014-05-16T00:15:24Z Husmor: daaamn
2014-05-16T00:15:27Z brianmwaters: i almost did that yesterday
2014-05-16T00:15:40Z brianmwaters: granted, i was porting a scheme program to JS.
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2014-05-16T00:15:49Z turbofail: just route all your tail calls through setTimeout
2014-05-16T00:15:52Z turbofail: and then cry
2014-05-16T00:16:11Z brianmwaters: haha. my brain hurts thinking about that
2014-05-16T00:16:19Z LeoNerd: Mmmmm green threading
2014-05-16T00:16:29Z LeoNerd: Actually that's more like barrel-threading
2014-05-16T00:22:24Z brianmwaters: are there any R7 implementations in progress?
2014-05-16T00:23:55Z turbofail: chibi scheme
2014-05-16T00:24:02Z brianmwaters: it looks like they finalize the report in march or so.
2014-05-16T00:24:08Z turbofail: https://code.google.com/p/chibi-scheme/
2014-05-16T00:24:19Z brianmwaters: thanks
2014-05-16T00:24:51Z brianmwaters: *finalized
2014-05-16T00:25:05Z turbofail: sagittarius scheme is also aiming at it
2014-05-16T00:26:15Z brianmwaters: lol, it's a scheme written in common lisp!!
2014-05-16T00:27:13Z turbofail: no it's not
2014-05-16T00:27:30Z turbofail: it's written in C
2014-05-16T00:27:39Z brianmwaters: oh. that's what a quick google search suggested.
2014-05-16T00:28:22Z turbofail: you might have gotten confused by reading "Built-in CLOS" as "Built in CLOS" or something
2014-05-16T00:29:01Z brianmwaters: .aaaaaaaaaaahh
2014-05-16T00:29:21Z brianmwaters: well a scheme w/ clos sounds interesting too.
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2014-05-16T07:12:24Z taylanub: the above conversation makes me wonder, anyone compiled Scheme to ASM.JS yet?
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2014-05-16T07:14:36Z taylanub: "Emscripten" can transcompile LLVM bytecode to ASM.JS.  I wonder how good the LLVM bytecode is as a general Scheme compilation target .. probably not as good as a specially crafted for-Scheme bytecode?  Then again Chicken shows that even C is a viable target.
2014-05-16T07:15:13Z taylanub: wish I had time to experiment with compilers myself.
2014-05-16T07:15:49Z fizzie: There's a couple of implementations that target JavaScript directly, at least. Don't know if any of those specifically consider the asm.js subset.
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2014-05-16T07:57:12Z taylanub pities R6RS for not having `include', once more.
2014-05-16T07:57:37Z taylanub: One can implement a half-assed version of it, which only works with absolute file-names ...
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2014-05-16T13:29:52Z klutometis: I was teaching a class on SICP the other day, when Hal motherfucking Abelson walks in.
2014-05-16T13:30:34Z klutometis: The following 55 minutes were a blur; I wish I had recorded them.
2014-05-16T13:30:54Z klutometis: At some point, though, he wished to "welcome Java to the 1960s;" with its acquisition of lambdas and all.
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2014-05-16T13:38:05Z samth: taylanub: alon zakai, the author of emscripten and asm.js. has worked with marc feely on this
2014-05-16T13:38:32Z samth: taylanub: it's slow, because you can't turn the control flow back into high-level js control flow
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2014-05-16T13:44:27Z taylanub: that's a shame
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2014-05-16T13:59:53Z visualshock: hi
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2014-05-16T14:02:16Z visualshock: I am trying to implement let in my mc-eval, but I am not sure how to do it since let is just lambdas
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2014-05-17T04:00:09Z jim: so I want to write a func that has moreorless permanent state, and I'm trying to find a better way than using top-level (aka global) vars
2014-05-17T04:00:32Z jim: can I do something like an object?
2014-05-17T04:02:15Z Riastradh: (define f (let ((state 0)) (lambda () (let ((s state)) (set! state (+ s 1)) s))))
2014-05-17T04:02:22Z Riastradh: rudybot: eval (define f (let ((state 0)) (lambda () (let ((s state)) (set! state (+ s 1)) s))))
2014-05-17T04:02:22Z rudybot: Riastradh: your sandbox is ready
2014-05-17T04:02:23Z rudybot: Riastradh: Done.
2014-05-17T04:02:26Z Riastradh: rudybot: eval (f)
2014-05-17T04:02:26Z rudybot: Riastradh: ; Value: 0
2014-05-17T04:02:27Z Riastradh: rudybot: eval (f)
2014-05-17T04:02:27Z rudybot: Riastradh: ; Value: 1
2014-05-17T04:02:28Z Riastradh: rudybot: eval (f)
2014-05-17T04:02:28Z rudybot: Riastradh: ; Value: 2
2014-05-17T04:02:33Z Riastradh: rudybot: eval state
2014-05-17T04:02:33Z rudybot: Riastradh: error: state: undefined; <NEWLINE>  cannot reference an identifier before its definition <NEWLINE>   in module: 'program
2014-05-17T04:02:48Z Riastradh: rudybot: eval another-undefined-variable-for-comparison
2014-05-17T04:02:48Z rudybot: Riastradh: error: another-undefined-variable-for-comparison: undefined; <NEWLINE>  cannot reference an identifier before its definition <NEWLINE>   in module: 'program
2014-05-17T04:02:59Z pjb`: closures are equivalent to objects.
2014-05-17T04:03:36Z Riastradh: 'Course, this means you can't easily examine the state in a REPL/debugger without extra work.
2014-05-17T04:03:38Z pjb`: (define f (let ((state 0)) (lambda () (set! state (+ state 1)) state))) (list (f) (f) (f)) --> unspecified result…
2014-05-17T04:04:17Z pjb`: You could get any permutation of (1 2 3)…
2014-05-17T04:05:22Z jim: here's why I was thinking of this... I want to make a streamer for a list and members that are lists
2014-05-17T04:05:29Z pjb`: (define f (let ((state 0)) (lambda () (set! state (+ state 1)) state))) (let* ((a (f)) (b (f)) (c (f))) (list a b c)) --> (1 2 3)
2014-05-17T04:06:05Z jim: say we have '(a b c (1 2 3) d e (4 5))
2014-05-17T04:07:17Z jim: I want to have a func that will return single items in the above order, that is, a,b,c,1,2,3,d,e,4,5
2014-05-17T04:08:03Z jim: and I want to know for each return whether it was in an inner list (as would be 2,3,4,5,6 here)
2014-05-17T04:08:28Z jim: err 1,2,3,4,5
2014-05-17T04:09:05Z jim: should it return something like '(a #f) or (1 #t)?
2014-05-17T04:09:11Z pjb`: Indeed.
2014-05-17T04:10:21Z jim: ok,,, I just need doc for making a closure with funcs in it
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2014-05-17T04:12:43Z pjb`: We've already provided you with two examples! Isn't it enough?
2014-05-17T04:13:09Z jim: I didn't understand them well enough
2014-05-17T04:13:28Z pjb`: jim: the trick is to identify free variables.
2014-05-17T04:13:54Z pjb`: Free variables are variables that are not bound, ie. which are not defined in a let, let* define or lambda-list.
2014-05-17T04:14:35Z pjb`: In: (lambda () (set! state (+ state 1)) state), the free variables are: set!, state and +.
2014-05-17T04:15:17Z jim: ok
2014-05-17T04:15:28Z pjb`: Then you enclose those free variables by providing binding for them, outside of the form.  set! and + are already bound in the environment, so we just need to bind state (we could also bind set! and + if we wanted).
2014-05-17T04:15:52Z pjb`: (let ((state 0))   (lambda () (set! state (+ state 1)) state))  produces therefore a closure, a function where the free variable state is enclosed by the surrounding let.
2014-05-17T04:16:24Z pjb`: (there are still set! and + as free variables, but since they're in the environment, you can consider that they are enclosed there.
2014-05-17T04:16:33Z pjb`: )
2014-05-17T04:16:36Z jim: so the (lambda ...) is the second arg to let?
2014-05-17T04:16:47Z pjb`: Yes. It's the body of the let.
2014-05-17T04:17:20Z pjb`: Notice that you can enclose with a lambda too:
2014-05-17T04:17:49Z pjb`: (lambda (state)  (lambda () (set! state (+ state 1)) state))  produces a function that produces a closure.  So that you can build closures with different initial state.
2014-05-17T04:19:03Z jim: so the thing that causes an env to be produced with state in it, is either the let or the lambda
2014-05-17T04:19:16Z pjb`: (define count-from (lambda (state)  (lambda () (set! state (+ state 1)) state)))  (map (lambda (x) (x)) (list (count-from 42) (count-from 0))) --> (43 1)
2014-05-17T04:19:24Z pjb`: jim: yes.
2014-05-17T04:19:35Z pjb`: Well, actually it's always lambda, let is just syntax for lambda.
2014-05-17T04:19:49Z pjb`: (let ((a 1) (b 2)) (+ a b)) <=> ((lambda (a b) (+ a b))  1 2)
2014-05-17T04:19:50Z jim: oh ok
2014-05-17T04:20:23Z pjb`: and (let* ((a 1) (b 2)) (+ a b)) <=> ((lambda (a) ((lambda (b) (+ a b)) 2)) 1)
2014-05-17T04:21:37Z jim: so in the let* version it uses a more tightly enclosed lambda for each var
2014-05-17T04:22:31Z pjb`: Yes.  This imposes an order on the evaluation of the expressions, 1, 2, etc.
2014-05-17T04:22:44Z pjb`: In ((lambda (a b) (+ a b))  1 2), 1 could be evaluated before or after 2.
2014-05-17T04:22:59Z pjb`: In ((lambda (a) ((lambda (b) (+ a b)) 2)) 1), 1 must be evaluated first.
2014-05-17T04:23:11Z jim: last week or so I thought I built a guile with libreadline... do I need to invoke guile in some special way to get the readliney stuff? I've been useing rlwrap guile up to this pt
2014-05-17T04:23:39Z pjb`: jim: no idea.  I guess you'd just need a terminal (not emacs M-x shell).
2014-05-17T04:23:53Z pjb`: rlwrap is nice.  emacs M-x shell is nicer (but different too).
2014-05-17T04:24:24Z jim: yeah, I like emacs shell mode for things like sqlplus and psql
2014-05-17T04:25:31Z jim thought guile compiled with libreadline would also be "nice"
2014-05-17T04:25:44Z pjb`: jim: yes, it's nice too :-)
2014-05-17T04:26:05Z pjb`: I assume you wouldn't have to do anything once it's compiled with it, to get readline features.
2014-05-17T04:26:36Z jim: so far, no... maybe I needed to ./configure it differently
2014-05-17T04:27:42Z pjb`: perhaps.  Perhaps there's an option to activate it?
2014-05-17T04:27:46Z jim: ok, let me try this...
2014-05-17T04:28:28Z jim: I'll explore that in a bit... meanwhile i can keep using rlwrap for the moment
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2014-05-17T04:45:13Z jim: all indications show readline was built... so it must be as you say, I would have to switch it on
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2014-05-17T04:46:41Z turbofail: (use-modules (ice-9 readline)) (activate-readline) or something like that
2014-05-17T04:47:20Z jim: in user's config file or like that?
2014-05-17T04:47:40Z turbofail: sure you can put that in .guilerc
2014-05-17T04:47:45Z turbofail: or type it in at the repl
2014-05-17T04:47:47Z turbofail: or whatever
2014-05-17T04:48:07Z jim: oh, so I could pull it in inside the repl
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2014-05-17T04:50:19Z turbofail: should be able to
2014-05-17T04:50:25Z jim: cool that did it
2014-05-17T04:52:23Z jim: didn't find the guilerc file tho, checking the docs
2014-05-17T04:52:55Z nisstyre: remind me what "ice-9" is a reference to
2014-05-17T04:53:00Z nisstyre: it's some scifi thing right?
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2014-05-17T04:53:28Z jim: joe satriani wrote a tune called that
2014-05-17T04:54:14Z jim: it could be a scifi thing that joe ran across too
2014-05-17T04:55:01Z nisstyre: pjb`: you should note that creating closures with no parameter bound variables and mutating the free variables is hardly a great idea in real code
2014-05-17T04:55:30Z jim: looks like I'll be writing fake code then :)
2014-05-17T04:55:39Z nisstyre: it's good for some things I guess but those mostly exist already as abstractions, e.g. streams
2014-05-17T04:56:16Z jim: is there an abstraction that fits my requirements?
2014-05-17T04:56:40Z nisstyre: what is it you need? I just looked at the channel
2014-05-17T04:57:20Z nisstyre: also pjb` explained the concept of free and bound variables nicely
2014-05-17T04:57:36Z nisstyre: so I'd listen to whatever was said already
2014-05-17T04:58:31Z nisstyre: a closure is essentially a pair where one element is an environment, and the other is a function, the environment allows access to variables that are not bound in the function (via lambda or let,and so on)
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2014-05-17T04:59:08Z nisstyre: invoking the closure involves extracting the free variables ( those not bound) and evaluating the function body with them
2014-05-17T05:00:16Z jim: say we have '(a b c (1 2 3) d e (4 5))
2014-05-17T05:00:20Z jim: I want to have a func that will return single items in the above order, that is, a,b,c,1,2,3,d,e,4,5
2014-05-17T05:00:33Z nisstyre: okay
2014-05-17T05:00:50Z jim: and I want some bools that tell me if I'm in an inner list
2014-05-17T05:00:53Z nisstyre: you could do that by having a free variable that holds a list and then setting that list to the cdr of itself each call
2014-05-17T05:00:57Z nisstyre: and returning the car
2014-05-17T05:01:04Z nisstyre: or something like that
2014-05-17T05:01:07Z jim: that's what I was thinking too
2014-05-17T05:01:16Z nisstyre: you could just flatten it beforehand
2014-05-17T05:01:24Z jim: (right, 'something like that')
2014-05-17T05:01:59Z jim: well the thing is the output was produced by an "unflattener"
2014-05-17T05:02:12Z nisstyre: unflattener?
2014-05-17T05:02:21Z nisstyre: you mean like something that groups together things?
2014-05-17T05:02:32Z jim: exactly so
2014-05-17T05:02:45Z nisstyre: it looks like it groups together runs of numbers as lists
2014-05-17T05:02:52Z nisstyre: is that right?
2014-05-17T05:02:57Z jim: and I'll tell you what this thing is too...
2014-05-17T05:03:27Z jim: well that was just an example, and I used letters and numbers to demonstrate and aid with explaining
2014-05-17T05:03:47Z jim: what the atom things are, are musical notes and rests
2014-05-17T05:04:52Z jim: it's specifically for lilypond
2014-05-17T05:05:35Z zacts: what are you doing with lilypond?
2014-05-17T05:07:03Z jim: the grouper looks for runs of rests... if the run is at the start, it's considered "leading rests" and if it follows a note, it's considered to be that note for the purpose of extending its duration, the new duration would be the duration of the note plus the duration of the rests
2014-05-17T05:07:16Z jim: xacts, making permutations
2014-05-17T05:10:01Z jim: for example coming up with all orderings of 3 eighth notes and 5 eighth rests
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2014-05-17T05:20:35Z jim: the user config file isn't .guilerc, so I changed the name to .guile and that worked to get readline working on guile startup
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2014-05-17T05:32:46Z turbofail: nisstyre: ice-9 is a reference to a virulently-spreading form of ice in kurt vonnegut's novel, "Cat's Cradle"
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2014-05-17T05:37:29Z nisstyre: turbofail: oh right I knew it was a modern scifi novel
2014-05-17T05:37:36Z nisstyre: I found that while reading about him on wikipedia one day
2014-05-17T05:37:43Z nisstyre: I have a couple of his books too
2014-05-17T05:41:58Z jim: going back to the earlier thing with the closure, what if I want a second call that initializes to clean state... would that involve putting two funcs in the same closure?
2014-05-17T05:42:23Z jim: as per your examples, what if I want to set state to 0
2014-05-17T05:44:06Z nisstyre: jim: you can always create a fresh closure by calling the function that returns the closure
2014-05-17T05:44:50Z jim: and that would have the effect of letting the prev one be garbabe collected?
2014-05-17T05:45:32Z nisstyre: no
2014-05-17T05:45:48Z nisstyre: the old one wouldn't get GC'd unless there were no more references to it
2014-05-17T05:46:13Z nisstyre: or if there's a cycle that's no longer accessible
2014-05-17T05:46:57Z nisstyre: you could do (set! old-closure (create-closure)) though
2014-05-17T05:47:04Z nisstyre: and if there were no more references to old-closure
2014-05-17T05:47:12Z nisstyre: old-closure's value left then it would be GC'd
2014-05-17T05:48:36Z nisstyre: sorry for my fail typing skills today
2014-05-17T05:49:08Z jim: no worries :)
2014-05-17T05:49:14Z jim: it happens to all of us
2014-05-17T05:50:24Z jim: ok, so if I put a let around a pair of defines
2014-05-17T05:50:41Z jim: wait let's just see if that works
2014-05-17T05:54:06Z nisstyre: rudybot: (define (create-closure init) (lambda () ((lambda (last-val) (begin (set! init (+ 1 init)) last-val)) init)))
2014-05-17T05:54:06Z rudybot: nisstyre: your sandbox is ready
2014-05-17T05:54:06Z rudybot: nisstyre: Done.
2014-05-17T05:54:20Z nisstyre: rudybot: (define f (create-closure 2))
2014-05-17T05:54:20Z rudybot: nisstyre: Done.
2014-05-17T05:54:25Z nisstyre: rudybot: (f)
2014-05-17T05:54:25Z rudybot: nisstyre: ; Value: 2
2014-05-17T05:54:27Z nisstyre: rudybot: (f)
2014-05-17T05:54:27Z rudybot: nisstyre: ; Value: 3
2014-05-17T05:54:43Z nisstyre: rudybot: (set! f (create-closure))
2014-05-17T05:54:43Z rudybot: nisstyre: error: create-closure: arity mismatch; <NEWLINE>  the expected number of arguments does not match the given number <NEWLINE>   expected: 1 <NEWLINE>   given: 0
2014-05-17T05:54:53Z nisstyre: rudybot: (set! f (create-closure 0))
2014-05-17T05:54:53Z rudybot: nisstyre: Done.
2014-05-17T05:54:57Z nisstyre: rudybot: (f)
2014-05-17T05:54:57Z rudybot: nisstyre: ; Value: 0
2014-05-17T05:54:58Z nisstyre: rudybot: (f)
2014-05-17T05:54:58Z rudybot: nisstyre: ; Value: 1
2014-05-17T05:56:05Z nisstyre: jim: is that clear?
2014-05-17T05:58:26Z nisstyre: create-closure is equivalent to this also
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2014-05-17T05:59:11Z nisstyre: rudybot: (define (create-closure init) (lambda () (let ((last-val init)) (set! init (+ 1 init)) last-val)))
2014-05-17T05:59:11Z rudybot: nisstyre: Done.
2014-05-17T05:59:53Z nisstyre: let gets desugared to the lambda above and the body of the lambda gets desugared to (lambda (args) (begin body)) more or less
2014-05-17T06:01:33Z jim: hmm. what I tried was (define cl (let ((state 0)) (define (init) ... ) (define (inc) ... )))
2014-05-17T06:02:32Z nisstyre: you could also do this...
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2014-05-17T06:03:00Z jim: (that one was a syntax err)
2014-05-17T06:03:24Z nisstyre: rudybot: (define create-closure (let ((init 0)) (lambda () (let ((prev init)) (set! init (+ 1 init)) prev))))
2014-05-17T06:03:24Z rudybot: nisstyre: Done.
2014-05-17T06:03:37Z nisstyre: rudybot: (define g (create-closure))
2014-05-17T06:03:37Z rudybot: nisstyre: Done.
2014-05-17T06:03:43Z nisstyre: rudybot: (g) (g) (g)
2014-05-17T06:03:44Z rudybot: nisstyre: afaiui, at&t and rogers both use 850/1900 for 3G, and the n900 doesn't support those
2014-05-17T06:03:57Z nisstyre: rudybot: (begin (g) (g) (g))
2014-05-17T06:03:58Z rudybot: nisstyre: error: application: not a procedure; <NEWLINE>  expected a procedure that can be applied to arguments <NEWLINE>   given: 0 <NEWLINE>   arguments...: [none]
2014-05-17T06:04:01Z nisstyre: bah
2014-05-17T06:04:04Z nisstyre: rudybot: (g)
2014-05-17T06:04:04Z rudybot: nisstyre: error: application: not a procedure; <NEWLINE>  expected a procedure that can be applied to arguments <NEWLINE>   given: 0 <NEWLINE>   arguments...: [none]
2014-05-17T06:05:08Z nisstyre: rudybot: (define adder (let ((init 0)) (lambda () (let ((prev init)) (set! init (+ 1 init)) prev)))))
2014-05-17T06:05:08Z rudybot: nisstyre: (define (adder y) (lambda (x) (+ y x))) (map (adder 2) '(1 2 3))
2014-05-17T06:05:30Z nisstyre: whut
2014-05-17T06:05:41Z nisstyre: rudybot: (define closure (let ((init 0)) (lambda () (let ((prev init)) (set! init (+ 1 init)) prev)))))
2014-05-17T06:05:43Z rudybot: nisstyre: tho it seems like "rotate prev 3 chars" is not going to be very common... it would be kind of surpristing if there was a builtin command to do exactly that... : ]
2014-05-17T06:05:48Z jim: it's fooing on you!
2014-05-17T06:06:05Z nisstyre: rudybot: (define closure (let ((init 0)) (lambda () (let ((prev init)) (set! init (+ 1 init)) prev))))
2014-05-17T06:06:05Z rudybot: nisstyre: Done.
2014-05-17T06:06:10Z nisstyre: too many parens
2014-05-17T06:06:26Z nisstyre: rudybot: closure
2014-05-17T06:06:26Z rudybot: nisstyre: ; Value: #<procedure:closure>
2014-05-17T06:06:31Z nisstyre: rudybot: (closure)
2014-05-17T06:06:31Z rudybot: nisstyre: ; Value: 0
2014-05-17T06:06:32Z nisstyre: rudybot: (closure)
2014-05-17T06:06:32Z rudybot: nisstyre: ; Value: 1
2014-05-17T06:06:38Z nisstyre: there...
2014-05-17T06:07:19Z jim: so you're using init to hold the state
2014-05-17T06:07:32Z nisstyre: yes
2014-05-17T06:08:02Z nisstyre: it's no different from the following code
2014-05-17T06:08:43Z nisstyre: rudybot: (define closure ((lambda (init) (lambda () (let ((prev init)) (set! init (+ 1 init)) prev))) 0)
2014-05-17T06:08:43Z rudybot: nisstyre: ":[0-9][0-9] \([0-9]+\) \(([^ ]+)\) " sorry that one should work, ignore the prev
2014-05-17T06:08:48Z nisstyre: rudybot: (define closure ((lambda (init) (lambda () (let ((prev init)) (set! init (+ 1 init)) prev))) 0))
2014-05-17T06:08:48Z rudybot: nisstyre: Done.
2014-05-17T06:09:07Z nisstyre: rudybot: (begin (closure) (closure))
2014-05-17T06:09:08Z rudybot: nisstyre: ; Value: 1
2014-05-17T06:09:18Z nisstyre: rudybot: (closure)
2014-05-17T06:09:18Z rudybot: nisstyre: ; Value: 2
2014-05-17T06:09:27Z nisstyre: see?
2014-05-17T06:09:33Z jim: so the body of the let is a lambda
2014-05-17T06:09:54Z nisstyre: well let is equivalent to wrapping the body in another lambda
2014-05-17T06:10:05Z nisstyre: because lambda introduces bindings
2014-05-17T06:10:08Z nisstyre: which is what let does
2014-05-17T06:10:18Z nisstyre: just without the spurious syntax
2014-05-17T06:11:12Z nisstyre: lambda is useful for a bunch of different reasons
2014-05-17T06:11:30Z nisstyre: it encapsulated code, it delays execution, it binds names to values, and it abstracts away things
2014-05-17T06:11:35Z nisstyre: *encapsulates
2014-05-17T06:11:52Z nisstyre: it also doesn't require you to give it a name
2014-05-17T06:11:56Z nisstyre: i.e. it's anonymous
2014-05-17T06:12:28Z nisstyre: I bet you didn't realize it was so useful
2014-05-17T06:12:49Z jim: well I've seen lambda in action over the years
2014-05-17T06:13:32Z nisstyre: well a lot of people don't realize what a powerful thing it is
2014-05-17T06:13:41Z nisstyre: especially people coming from languages like Python or Perl
2014-05-17T06:14:12Z jim: those languages may have closures but not lambdas
2014-05-17T06:14:19Z nisstyre: especially since lambda is neutered in Python
2014-05-17T06:14:33Z jim: how so?
2014-05-17T06:14:38Z nisstyre: Python doesn't have real closures either
2014-05-17T06:14:55Z nisstyre: jim: because it can only contain certain kinds of expressions
2014-05-17T06:15:01Z nisstyre: i.e. not things Python calls "statements"
2014-05-17T06:15:09Z nisstyre: and it can only have one expression
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2014-05-17T06:15:53Z nisstyre: as for closures, in Python def foo(a): def bar(): a = a + 1; return a doesn't do what you think it would
2014-05-17T06:16:51Z nisstyre: er that should be def foo(a): def bar(): a = a+ 1; return a <insert whitespace crap here> return bar
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2014-05-17T06:23:12Z jim: pause here... running errand
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2014-05-17T06:59:32Z jim: ok,
2014-05-17T07:00:08Z jim: away from python and all...
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2014-05-17T07:13:13Z jim: nisstyre, still around?
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2014-05-17T07:47:56Z jim: OK, I made a basic streamer... http://pastie.org/9183906
2014-05-17T07:48:45Z jim: and turned the original into a func that makes a closure with an initial value
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2014-05-17T10:00:00Z pjb`: jim: http://paste.lisp.org/+3210
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2014-05-17T12:30:25Z jim: is it true you can't set! an unbound?
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2014-05-17T12:46:00Z pyro-: jim: i don't know what the standard(s) say. some schemes will let you and some schemes won't. you're "not supposed to"
2014-05-17T12:46:45Z jim: so safest is provide a binding
2014-05-17T12:47:07Z jim: and this is guile 2
2014-05-17T12:48:44Z jim: and if you do it and it works, then it's putting a binding somewhere, maybe unexpected place
2014-05-17T12:49:06Z pyro-: i just tested guile, elk, mit-scheme, chicken-scheme, and only chicke's csi let me do it
2014-05-17T12:49:52Z jim: so evidently bad juju
2014-05-17T12:50:44Z jim: and thanks muchly for the test
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2014-05-17T16:06:52Z jusss: what's environment ?
2014-05-17T16:07:39Z jusss: (eval exp env)
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2014-05-17T16:08:04Z brianmwaters: it's the set of name-value pairs accessible to a particular expression.
2014-05-17T16:08:16Z brianmwaters: ie, variable bindings.
2014-05-17T16:10:24Z brianmwaters: unfortunately, it's format is rather opaque. you can't just use a list or something similar; you have to use null-environment, scheme-report-environment, interaction-environment, or some other implementation-specific thing
2014-05-17T16:10:36Z brianmwaters: (at least for R5RS. i can't speak for R6 or Racket)
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2014-05-17T16:14:25Z jusss: understand hard...
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2014-05-17T16:18:14Z brianmwaters: jusss: sorry, i don't follow :)
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2014-05-17T16:19:24Z jusss: brianmwaters: my fault, my english is bad :-)
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2014-05-17T16:20:28Z brianmwaters: jusss: no problem. did you understand my answer?
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2014-05-17T16:20:51Z jusss: brianmwaters: almost
2014-05-17T16:21:26Z jusss: brianmwaters: i find its matter with closure
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2014-05-17T17:21:55Z theseb: lots of people trash talk about lack of comprehensive standard libraries in lisp.....BUT....doesn't implementing your fav language on the JVM take care of all that?
2014-05-17T17:22:11Z theseb: you basically get the entire battle hardened super documented JAVA std lib for free no?
2014-05-17T17:22:40Z nisstyre: theseb: Racket has a pretty good set of baked in libraries
2014-05-17T17:22:55Z nisstyre: theseb: also isn't that what Clojure is for?
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2014-05-17T17:46:48Z LeoNerd: Also, don't confuse "running on the JVM" with "running on Java"
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2014-05-17T17:47:07Z LeoNerd: Compiling code for x86 doesn't automatically mean it'll run on Windows, even though Windows runs on x86
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2014-05-18T21:53:35Z mejja: rudybot: long time no senility
2014-05-18T21:53:35Z rudybot: mejja: Senility, apparently, is the best part of life.
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2014-05-19T01:19:51Z davexunit: hey schemers
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2014-05-19T01:21:03Z davexunit: I'm trying to use a macro that has the form (foo bar)
2014-05-19T01:21:23Z davexunit: bar is expected to be a literal, not a symbol or other such form.
2014-05-19T01:21:44Z davexunit: (foo 'bar) wouldn't work, but I would like it to.  is there a way to do this?
2014-05-19T01:25:38Z Riastradh: More context needed.
2014-05-19T01:26:31Z offby1: davexunit: have your macro do one thing for forms like (quote something), and another thing for forms like something.
2014-05-19T01:26:33Z offby1 nods gravely 
2014-05-19T01:27:03Z davexunit: offby1: that should work, but it's a macro in another library :(
2014-05-19T01:27:06Z davexunit: oh well.
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2014-05-19T01:31:56Z Riastradh: More details!
2014-05-19T01:32:13Z Riastradh: What is the problem you are trying to solve of which you believe this is a subproblem?
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2014-05-19T01:32:59Z davexunit: I want to call a macro with user input, a symbol.  I cannot simply hardcode it.
2014-05-19T01:33:54Z davexunit: I don't want the user to specify "(foo bar)", but simply "bar".
2014-05-19T01:34:23Z Riastradh: No, go broader.
2014-05-19T01:35:50Z Riastradh: What is the macro, what is the user input, and what are you trying to accomplish?
2014-05-19T01:36:34Z Riastradh: (What you have done so far is eliminated all the details that are actually relevant to your problem and left something that is essentially unsolvable by construction.)
2014-05-19T01:38:23Z Riastradh: Gotta run.
2014-05-19T01:38:30Z davexunit: the macro is called gl-begin-mode, it's a macro generated by another macro called define-enumeration.  It maps literals to numbers.
2014-05-19T01:38:40Z davexunit: Riastradh: thanks for trying to help me, anyway.
2014-05-19T01:38:55Z davexunit: I'll figure it out.  having a hard time describing it.
2014-05-19T01:39:26Z Riastradh: Does your DEFINE-ENUMERATION expand to anything that records the names at run-time?  If not, you will need something that does.
2014-05-19T01:39:44Z davexunit: I don't think it does.
2014-05-19T01:39:46Z Riastradh: Forget the macro GL-BEGIN-MODE; you need something else.
2014-05-19T01:39:54Z Riastradh: In that case, you need to make your own such table.
2014-05-19T01:40:11Z Riastradh: Consider adapting your DEFINE-ENUMERATION to generate it for you, though.
2014-05-19T01:40:40Z Riastradh: E.g., to generate procedures SYMBOL->GL-BEGIN-MODE and GL-BEGIN-MODE->SYMBOL, or a vector GL-BEGIN-MODES, or something.
2014-05-19T01:40:46Z Riastradh: *poof*
2014-05-19T01:40:53Z davexunit: thanks
2014-05-19T01:42:01Z offby1: damn, I've never figured out how he just _vanishes_ like that.
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2014-05-19T02:16:37Z chrisirc: I'm looking for a fold(-right) like function but that allows to optionally process the next item in the source list, too.
2014-05-19T02:18:39Z chrisirc: e.g. (fold/slurp (lambda (v with-rest with-next) (if (keyword? v) (with-next (lambda (v2 with-rest with-next) (with-rest (lambda (rest) (cons (cons v v2) rest)))) .. )
2014-05-19T02:18:51Z chrisirc: or perhaps there's a better idea than this.
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2014-05-19T02:19:36Z chrisirc: ^ idea being to process '(a: 1 foo bar baz b: 2) into ((a: . 1) foo ...)
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2014-05-19T02:33:48Z DrDuck: are there many companies at all that hire for scheme?
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2014-05-19T02:47:38Z offby1: chrisirc: I swear I wrote that once.
2014-05-19T02:47:48Z offby1: DrDuck: heh.
2014-05-19T02:50:25Z DrDuck: offby1: i take that as a no
2014-05-19T02:50:49Z offby1: DrDuck: to a first approximation, it's "hell, no".
2014-05-19T02:51:21Z offby1: I doubt there are 1,000 people in the US who make their living writing scheme code.
2014-05-19T02:51:26Z offby1: Hell, I doubt there are _100_.
2014-05-19T02:51:48Z offby1: And most of them are probably CS profs who work on a scheme implementation as just part of their jobs (like the PLT folks)
2014-05-19T02:52:46Z DrDuck: OUCH
2014-05-19T02:53:04Z DrDuck: wonder if putting scheme/finishing sicp on the resume would help any then
2014-05-19T02:55:01Z offby1: maybe, if you catch the eye of someone like me who _wishes_ he could use scheme at work :)
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2014-05-19T02:57:22Z nisstyre: DrDuck: I got a job because I said I liked functional programming
2014-05-19T02:57:25Z nisstyre: more or less
2014-05-19T02:57:54Z DrDuck: :O
2014-05-19T02:57:59Z nisstyre: if someone said they loved Scheme then I would put their resume aside to look at
2014-05-19T02:58:11Z nisstyre: but that's me
2014-05-19T02:58:20Z nisstyre: some people are actively hostile to Scheme for some reason
2014-05-19T02:58:23Z offby1: and probably everyone in this channel.
2014-05-19T02:58:38Z offby1: I knew a perfectly fine fellow who _hated_ being forced to "do" SICP
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2014-05-19T02:59:28Z nisstyre: offby1: yeah, and I bet if you taught the same material using their favourite language they would love it
2014-05-19T02:59:36Z offby1: sure
2014-05-19T03:00:12Z nisstyre: I'm pondering writing a blog post about how closures actually work but using Python or Javascript or something
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2014-05-19T03:00:23Z nisstyre: Javascript would actually be clearer because it has 'let' now
2014-05-19T03:00:49Z nisstyre: Python still treats assignment like binding
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2014-05-19T04:47:17Z jyc: is there any http server written in scheme that is particularly well-designed? I'm interested in finding one to study before I try to write one as a side project
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2014-05-19T05:03:13Z jim: there are probably scheme modules for most existing servers
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2014-05-19T05:10:44Z evhan: jyc: Guile, CHICKEN, and Racket all have solid web servers with different designs that you could check out.
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2014-05-19T05:23:40Z jyc: thanks for the tips!
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2014-05-19T15:25:20Z jusss: (eval exp env) what's environment?
2014-05-19T15:25:37Z Riastradh: An association between names and meanings.
2014-05-19T15:25:51Z Riastradh: Without it EVAL has no idea what the names in EXP mean.
2014-05-19T15:27:13Z jusss: how to set it ?
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2014-05-19T15:27:50Z jusss: or how to build a environment
2014-05-19T15:27:52Z Riastradh: What environment do you want?  If you're using the R5RS, (scheme-report-environment 5) yields an environment with everything described by the R5RS.
2014-05-19T15:28:19Z Riastradh: There's no standard way to build them.  You need to specify some more context.
2014-05-19T15:30:00Z jusss: there is not (scheme-report-environment ) in mit/gun scheme...
2014-05-19T15:30:05Z jusss: gnu
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2014-05-19T16:24:46Z theseb: why don't people that complain about completeness of std lib use a scheme that runs on the JVM? doesn't that solve the library problem nicely?
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2014-05-19T16:30:40Z asumu: theseb: not really, because JVM libraries aren't idiomatic with regard to how people program in Scheme.
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2014-05-19T16:31:58Z asumu: Hence why Clojure programmers write their own libraries rather than just use the JVM ones (of course they probably also use JVM ones when they have to).
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2014-05-19T16:36:02Z theseb: asumu: yea..i was going to mention Clojure..
2014-05-19T16:36:29Z theseb: asumu: wait!!! if you don't like the syntax of Java libraries that's just a tiny shim to fix that
2014-05-19T16:36:51Z theseb: asumu: a little wrapper to convert $DESIRED_SYNTAX to $JAVA_SYNTAX
2014-05-19T16:36:57Z vraid: the JVM doesn't even support tail recursion
2014-05-19T16:37:18Z vraid: (tail call optimization)
2014-05-19T16:38:39Z theseb: vraid: that may or may not be a problem...guess it depends how heavy duty your needs are
2014-05-19T16:38:40Z asumu: theseb: the difference between Java and Scheme is far more than syntax. It's about whether it prefers mutation or functional update, objects with state or functional records, and so on.
2014-05-19T16:38:57Z asumu: Those differences are harder to paper over.
2014-05-19T16:39:15Z theseb: vraid: if you want to run amazon.com on your scheme appy then yes maybe it may take more care...but uncle joe's paint store web app will survive just fine with a scheme appy running on the jvm
2014-05-19T16:39:50Z theseb: asumu: i agree with you but i keep coming back to clojure....they seem to be happy
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2014-05-19T16:40:14Z theseb: asumu: if you say clojure guys are rewriting everything that uses JVM i'll believe you but that'd be kinda funny
2014-05-19T16:41:05Z asumu: There are many reasons the Clojurists are happy. One is that they have a community which isn't as splintered.
2014-05-19T16:41:21Z asumu: Having JVM libraries probably does help, at least as an initial hook.
2014-05-19T16:41:49Z theseb: asumu: yea....those libraries are like a backup system..hopefully you never need to use it but it is  nice to know it is there in a pinch
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2014-05-19T18:07:37Z samth: wingo: i enjoyed your blog post
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2014-05-19T18:24:22Z m4burns: /win 23
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2014-05-19T18:24:41Z m4burns: whoops, /resume lurk
2014-05-19T18:29:25Z wingo: samth: tx!  probably naive but i haven't gotten any well-actuallies yet
2014-05-19T18:29:45Z wingo: next one is on flow analysis and cse, we'll see how that goes
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2014-05-19T18:38:07Z samth: wingo: one thing i don't understand is how you handle exceptions other than type errors
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2014-05-19T18:39:25Z wingo: samth: those fall in the `&all-effects' case
2014-05-19T18:39:29Z wingo: kindof a hack
2014-05-19T18:39:43Z wingo: if all 4 type bits are set and the object is the "unknown memory kinds" object
2014-05-19T18:39:54Z wingo: then that means the expr could do anything
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2014-05-19T18:40:10Z samth: wingo: ah
2014-05-19T18:40:18Z samth: wingo: why distinguish different kinds of exceptions?
2014-05-19T18:40:32Z wingo: i don't
2014-05-19T18:40:39Z wingo: the type-check bit is any exception
2014-05-19T18:40:49Z samth: ah ok
2014-05-19T18:41:05Z wingo: with the condition that if the effects are not &all-effects, then the exception either occurs for given values or doesn't
2014-05-19T18:41:17Z samth: ah, i see
2014-05-19T18:41:24Z wingo: hackety hack
2014-05-19T18:41:43Z wingo: i reckon type-check isn't the right name
2014-05-19T18:41:46Z samth: so if the expression is actually a function (in the exception monad)
2014-05-19T18:42:11Z samth: wingo: what if the expr is (+ a b) but a is a mutable variable?
2014-05-19T18:44:43Z wingo: samth: assignment conversion
2014-05-19T18:44:55Z samth: ah ok
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2014-05-19T21:21:28Z vanila: how do i get line numbers from a chicken scheme input stream?
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2014-05-19T21:27:42Z vanila: I mean port
2014-05-19T21:32:33Z vanila: i think i found a way
2014-05-19T21:32:37Z vanila: what is the point of values by the way?
2014-05-19T21:32:50Z vanila: it seems the same as returning a list, but awkward to get the values out
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2014-05-20T06:16:08Z jusss: global variable is a special free variable?
2014-05-20T06:23:42Z pjb: In scheme, there are no special variables (as in Common Lisp).  Scheme global variables are just lexical variables found in the environment.
2014-05-20T06:23:54Z pjb: Possibly, the interaction-environment if it is present.
2014-05-20T06:24:33Z pjb: jusss: in a way, (define x 42)  at the REPL can be understood as (let ((x 42))  ; <- without  a closing parenthesis! :-)
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2014-05-20T06:30:51Z jusss: pjb: i see
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2014-05-20T15:58:23Z visualshock: (define (x y z) is x the procedure name and y z arguments?
2014-05-20T15:59:41Z vraid: yes
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2014-05-20T16:03:18Z LeoNerd: It's just shorthand for   (define x (lambda (y z) ... )
2014-05-20T16:03:20Z LeoNerd: )
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2014-05-20T16:07:42Z zacts: LeoNerd: mind if I bother you with a few questions about your parser on #circle?
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2014-05-20T16:08:07Z LeoNerd: Could just ask here? It's quiet.. but whatever
2014-05-20T16:08:16Z LeoNerd: But be aware I'll be going AFK in ~12 minutes for swimming
2014-05-20T16:11:11Z visualshock: (define foo bar) is foo now pointing to bar or created a new bar?
2014-05-20T16:11:46Z taylanub: visualshock: bar is just an expression .. or what is it in this case, a variable?
2014-05-20T16:12:15Z visualshock: taylanub, let's say '(1 2)
2014-05-20T16:12:42Z taylanub: in that case foo gets bound to a literal list (1 2), which may be made of immutable pairs
2014-05-20T16:12:54Z taylanub: if you do (list 1 2) then it's a list made up of newly allocated and mutable pairs
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2014-05-20T16:15:02Z visualshock: okey, so if I use set! on bar, foo doesn't change?
2014-05-20T16:15:20Z taylanub: you mean (set! '(1 2) ...)?
2014-05-20T16:15:45Z taylanub: do you mean (define foo '(1 2)) or literally "(define foo bar)"?
2014-05-20T16:17:13Z Riastradh: rudybot: eval (define bar 0)
2014-05-20T16:17:13Z rudybot: Riastradh: Done.
2014-05-20T16:17:15Z Riastradh: rudybot: eval (define foo bar)
2014-05-20T16:17:15Z rudybot: Riastradh: Done.
2014-05-20T16:17:18Z Riastradh: rudybot: eval (set! bar 1)
2014-05-20T16:17:18Z rudybot: Riastradh: Done.
2014-05-20T16:17:21Z Riastradh: rudybot: eval (list foo bar)
2014-05-20T16:17:21Z rudybot: Riastradh: ; Value: '(0 1)
2014-05-20T16:17:54Z visualshock: (define bar '(1 2)) and then (define foo bar)
2014-05-20T16:18:28Z visualshock: okey thanks
2014-05-20T16:19:07Z taylanub: visualshock: what Riastradh demonstrated applies in all cases; using set! on one variable never changes another.  and in your example '(1 2) is also a (possibly) immutable object so one cannot use set-car! etc. either; however, if you do (define bar (list 1 2))  (define foo bar)  (set-car! bar 3)  then both foo and bar now refer to the list (3 2)
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2014-05-20T16:25:05Z visualshock: rudybot, eval (define foo '(a b))
2014-05-20T16:25:06Z rudybot: visualshock: your sandbox is ready
2014-05-20T16:25:06Z rudybot: visualshock: Done.
2014-05-20T16:25:23Z visualshock: rudybot, eval (define bar foo)
2014-05-20T16:25:24Z rudybot: visualshock: Done.
2014-05-20T16:25:31Z tenq|out is now known as tenq
2014-05-20T16:25:33Z visualshock: rudybot, eval (set! foo '(c d))
2014-05-20T16:25:33Z rudybot: visualshock: Done.
2014-05-20T16:25:41Z visualshock: rudybot, eval (set-car! foo bar)
2014-05-20T16:25:41Z rudybot: visualshock: error: set-car!: undefined; <NEWLINE>  cannot reference an identifier before its definition <NEWLINE>   in module: 'program
2014-05-20T16:29:18Z taylanub: huh, it should have errorred on the (set! foo ...) already
2014-05-20T16:29:24Z taylanub: oh, never mind
2014-05-20T16:29:29Z taylanub: (didn't see the first line)
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2014-05-21T01:51:13Z chrisirc: I'm looking for a but-last function, that does (compose reverse cdr reverse). I don't see any in srfi-1, any suggestion?
2014-05-21T01:52:06Z Riastradh: (drop-right list 1)
2014-05-21T01:52:27Z evhan: chrisirc: drop-right
2014-05-21T01:52:49Z chrisirc: ah, thanks
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2014-05-21T01:54:41Z chrisirc: heh, that one's pretty smartly implemented, too :)
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2014-05-21T03:20:50Z b4283: I just think of a joke last night
2014-05-21T03:21:06Z b4283: Empty List: "Dude, where's my car?"
2014-05-21T03:21:11Z offby1 slaps b4283 upside the haid
2014-05-21T03:21:27Z b4283: ouch
2014-05-21T03:21:45Z rudybot slaps b4283 upside the haid, too
2014-05-21T03:21:51Z b4283: what's a haid
2014-05-21T03:21:57Z offby1: the thing on top of your neck
2014-05-21T03:22:05Z gnomon: my coffee hole?
2014-05-21T03:22:06Z offby1: that your face is attached to the front of
2014-05-21T03:22:09Z offby1: where you hair lives
2014-05-21T03:22:18Z b4283: oh yeah
2014-05-21T03:22:21Z gnomon: That would be my shower drain.
2014-05-21T03:22:23Z offby1: the thing in which your pie hole is.
2014-05-21T03:22:40Z gnomon: My pie hole is generally right in the pie.  (I don't share well.)
2014-05-21T03:23:53Z offby1: in fact, one could create a sort of loco-motion by keeping a nice pie (meringue, maybe) perpeturally two feet in front of gnomon's pie hole.
2014-05-21T03:24:04Z offby1: just a stick and some string ought to do it.
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2014-05-21T03:24:38Z offby1: http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-JQzEvoqHWJI/ThtSX5v4yMI/AAAAAAAAAFk/WP_9kEA6AVs/s1600/carrot1.jpeg for some value of "carrot"
2014-05-21T03:24:41Z rudybot: http://tinyurl.com/7fcyhl9
2014-05-21T03:24:57Z offby1: also for some value of "doneky" of course.
2014-05-21T03:25:01Z offby1: d o n k e y
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2014-05-21T10:27:59Z Steverman: anyone good at reading BNF?
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2014-05-21T10:34:12Z Steverman: <let-expression>        ::= (let ({[<variable> <expression>]}*) <expression>)
2014-05-21T10:34:14Z Steverman:                             ;;; where all the variables are distinct
2014-05-21T10:34:43Z Steverman: would that look like '(case [var1 exp1] exp2)
2014-05-21T10:34:45Z Steverman: ?
2014-05-21T10:38:58Z ecraven: (let ([var1 exp1] [var2 exp12]) (+ var1 var2))
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2014-05-21T11:19:04Z Steverman: ecraven:, so (let () (exp1))
2014-05-21T11:19:06Z Steverman: is valid
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2014-05-21T11:28:45Z ecraven: Steverman: according to this EBNF, I'd say yes
2014-05-21T11:33:59Z ecraven: is this Clojure? or Racket?
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2014-05-21T12:20:50Z Steverman: ecraven, petite chez
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2014-05-21T14:41:10Z DrDuck:  Hi. Could anyone help give me a helping hand in understanding the last part of exercise 2.37 (matrix-*-matrix m n) of SICP? http://mitpress.mit.edu/sicp/full-text/book/book-Z-H-15.html#%_thm_2.37
2014-05-21T14:41:38Z DrDuck: my progress on the problem is here: https://www.refheap.com/85724
2014-05-21T14:42:16Z vraid: DrDuck: do you know linear algebra, and how to multiply matrices?
2014-05-21T14:42:50Z DrDuck: vraid: i've forgotten most of linear algebra, but know how to multiply matrices, yes
2014-05-21T14:43:43Z DrDuck: the second matrix - n - is transposed for easier computation, i think
2014-05-21T14:44:00Z DrDuck: so what's given in the book is that the matrix m will be mapped upon
2014-05-21T14:44:10Z DrDuck: but we have to figure out with what procedure
2014-05-21T14:45:46Z DrDuck: ohh i can already see something wrong i've did
2014-05-21T14:46:01Z DrDuck: i'm not multiplying a matrix by a vector in my inner lambda procedure
2014-05-21T14:46:08Z DrDuck: i'm multiplying two vectors
2014-05-21T14:48:30Z DrDuck: nevermind i fixed it xD
2014-05-21T14:48:48Z DrDuck: https://www.refheap.com/85724
2014-05-21T14:49:23Z vraid: any time :p
2014-05-21T14:49:24Z DrDuck: vraid: i think explaining what i was thinking out loud to someone helped more than anything haha
2014-05-21T14:49:26Z DrDuck: thank you
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2014-05-21T14:53:17Z vraid: DrDuck: guess i make a good duck too http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rubber_duck_debugging
2014-05-21T14:53:42Z DrDuck: lol!
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2014-05-21T14:57:09Z asumu: The best ducks are huge though. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Rubber_Duck_%288374802487%29.jpg
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2014-05-21T14:59:39Z vraid: imagine how many bugs could have been avoided if every office had one of those
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2014-05-21T15:41:59Z Steverman: I'm trying to implement http://users-cs.au.dk/danvy/dProgSprog/Lecture-notes/week-19.html#pure-scheme-with-quasiquotation:cond-expression
2014-05-21T15:41:59Z rudybot: http://tinyurl.com/l2z66b2
2014-05-21T15:42:40Z Steverman: but it's getting hard when I have to check what's inside the inside cond-clause
2014-05-21T15:42:56Z Steverman: if it's just one expression then I can do it
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2014-05-22T12:19:15Z cva: hi everyone, I started reading SICP / learning scheme on my own.No friends around me have been introduced with neither lispy thing nor SICP. definitely I'll. My question is this. Do I miss Something Or Is it bad If I learn(read, do exercise ) myself with out a mentor / more experienced
2014-05-22T12:22:54Z taylanub: I'm entirely self-taught and doing fine but it probably depends entirely on the person.
2014-05-22T12:23:20Z taylanub: and maybe I'd have learned everything twice as fast with a mentor, who knows
2014-05-22T12:23:51Z taylanub: though another way to look at it is that I have a couple dozen mentors on IRC :P
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2014-05-22T12:32:30Z cva: i hope i'll get so
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2014-05-22T13:08:57Z pjb: cva: you could watch the videos, they would compensate the live mentor.
2014-05-22T13:09:40Z pjb: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Op3QLzMgSY&list=PLE18841CABEA24090&index=1
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2014-05-22T15:35:05Z ANGRYSTEVE: hi
2014-05-22T15:38:26Z pjb: hi
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2014-05-22T15:47:10Z ANGRYSTEVE: what exactly is folding?
2014-05-22T15:47:42Z vraid: do you understand recursion?
2014-05-22T15:47:43Z taylanub: ANGRYSTEVE: going over a list of objects and accumulating a result
2014-05-22T15:48:11Z ANGRYSTEVE: oh okay
2014-05-22T15:48:35Z ANGRYSTEVE: vraid, yeah I do
2014-05-22T15:48:57Z taylanub: either "iteratively" (a one-by-one walk over the list) or "recursively" (build up a queue of operations to be applied, then apply them)
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2014-05-22T15:55:28Z ANGRYSTEVE: that's where left and right comes in?
2014-05-22T15:55:51Z `^_^v: no
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2014-05-22T15:57:02Z vraid: ANGRYSTEVE: http://pasterack.org/pastes/5626
2014-05-22T15:58:01Z ANGRYSTEVE: okay, I will look at this after dinner
2014-05-22T15:58:14Z vraid: where f is a function taking (in this case) two arguments
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2014-05-22T16:26:57Z ANGRYSTEVE: oooh
2014-05-22T16:27:39Z ANGRYSTEVE: much easier way to write it
2014-05-22T16:27:51Z ANGRYSTEVE: I guess foldl is predefined or whatever you call it
2014-05-22T16:27:55Z ANGRYSTEVE: or foldr
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2014-05-22T17:50:11Z offby1 is a fan of racket's "for/fold" -- super-general, but easy to use
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2014-05-22T17:54:00Z samth: offby1: indeed
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2014-05-22T18:07:42Z turbofail: fast too
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2014-05-22T18:58:36Z ANGRYSTEVE: I had to define mine myself
2014-05-22T18:58:41Z ANGRYSTEVE: either way...
2014-05-22T18:58:51Z ANGRYSTEVE: fold left... fold right
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2014-05-22T19:04:03Z ANGRYSTEVE: oh is it how you traverse uh.. for example a list?
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2014-05-22T20:02:36Z offby1: often.
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2014-05-22T23:52:50Z theseb: help! java mult choice question #9 on 10th page of this PDF is kicking my ass.. http://phil4.com/public/ap_computer_science_a/ap_exams/questions/multiple_choice/sample_multiple_choice.pdf	
2014-05-22T23:52:51Z rudybot: http://tinyurl.com/p4m3md9
2014-05-22T23:53:12Z theseb: i'm cool with trying to read code but this code is way to hardcore to try to "run in your mind"
2014-05-22T23:53:18Z theseb: (it is from the AP Comp Sci exam)
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2014-05-22T23:55:31Z kevinfish: I'm trying to run the example here file:///usr/share/doc/skribe-1.2l/user-2.html#Hyperlinks with bigloo and it keeps giving me: *** ERROR:skribe-read-text Illegal nested `[...]' form  -- any help?
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2014-05-23T00:12:59Z theseb: help! java mult choice question #9 on 10th page of this PDF is kicking my ass.. http://phil4.com/public/ap_computer_science_a/ap_exams/questions/multiple_choice/sample_multiple_choice.pdf
2014-05-23T00:12:59Z rudybot: http://tinyurl.com/p4m3md9
2014-05-23T00:13:30Z theseb: disregard
2014-05-23T00:15:01Z offby1: don't worry; I have been
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2014-05-23T00:24:36Z kevinfish: if I just put one of the refs in to the previous sample, other than it not liking two [] args its fine.   So where is the nesting problem?  Help, not a schemer
2014-05-23T00:27:23Z offby1: kevinfish: you might want to post an HTTP url instead of a file:// one, or else give us all ssh access to your machine.
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2014-05-23T00:43:54Z kevinfish:  offby1: oops, sorry :\
2014-05-23T00:44:53Z kevinfish: http://www-sop.inria.fr/members/Manuel.Serrano/skribe/doc/user-2.html#Hyperlinks
2014-05-23T00:44:54Z rudybot: http://tinyurl.com/pjebfnn
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2014-05-23T00:46:47Z offby1: kevinfish: alas, I don't use bigloo anyway
2014-05-23T00:47:14Z kevinfish: I'm thinking skribe must be way out of date for some modern bigloo/scheme syntax changes (like nested [..])?
2014-05-23T00:47:22Z offby1: no idea.
2014-05-23T00:47:45Z offby1: for what it's worth, there's something called "scribble", which, from the name, I'll bet is similar to "skribe".
2014-05-23T00:47:50Z offby1: scribble is part of "racket".
2014-05-23T00:48:57Z kevinfish: offby1: ok, thx, I'll check it out
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2014-05-23T00:50:10Z offby1: I see Last update Tue Jun 29 09:37:13 2010.
2014-05-23T00:50:17Z offby1: scribble is waaaay more active than that.
2014-05-23T00:50:31Z zacts: hey
2014-05-23T00:50:38Z zacts: I was wondering about scribble
2014-05-23T00:51:11Z zacts: http://scribble.mit.edu ?
2014-05-23T00:51:17Z offby1: don't think so.
2014-05-23T00:51:20Z zacts: oh ok
2014-05-23T00:51:48Z offby1: http://docs.racket-lang.org/scribble/
2014-05-23T00:52:49Z kevinfish: I was looking at skribe cuz it was a path to skribilo which has a lout output (which is where most of the rest of my documentation is, but I was hoping to have something more lisp-like plus more possible outputs, like docx)
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2014-05-23T08:45:34Z republican_devil: whats up schemers?
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2014-05-23T08:59:45Z taylanub: is there a term for "structural" syntax errors, meaning a valid sexpr was read in but the sexpr isn't valid Scheme code?  Like say (lambda foo) or (if x y z t) or () and the like?
2014-05-23T09:03:16Z republican_devil: dunno
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2014-05-23T09:35:05Z hkBst: taylanub, as opposed to which other kind of syntax errors?
2014-05-23T09:36:03Z taylanub: hkBst: invalid sexpr, i.e. reader error
2014-05-23T09:40:58Z taylanub: am I the only one who, on hearing "synax error", usually thinks of invalid-read-syntax kind of syntax errors?  I always need a thought-shift to include invalid-sexpr-structure errors to that.
2014-05-23T09:42:57Z republican_devil: yep your the one
2014-05-23T09:43:19Z republican_devil: dispatches an invisible stalker to get taylanub
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2014-05-23T11:09:37Z hkBst: taylanub, the good thing is your read-syntax usually means an unbalanced paren and so that is then usually the message
2014-05-23T11:11:34Z hkBst: I mean, in case of read-syntax-error it is usually...
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2014-05-23T13:36:03Z amgarching: Hi! Is there anything established for limiting the scope of variables at the top-level? This is getting ugly for more than one definition: (define f #f) (let ((speed-of-light 300)) (set! f (lambda (x) (use speed-of-light))
2014-05-23T13:37:45Z hkBst: amgarching, (define f (let ((c 300)) (lambda ... c ...) ))
2014-05-23T13:38:39Z amgarching: The problem is more if you want another (define (g ...)) which also need "c"
2014-05-23T13:38:58Z amgarching: so I always resort to
2014-05-23T13:39:08Z amgarching: (define c 300) at the top level
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2014-05-23T13:39:29Z hkBst: amgarching, the same location or just the same value?
2014-05-23T13:39:53Z amgarching: Mostly constants, so *value* for a starter
2014-05-23T13:41:49Z hkBst: amgarching, then a macro could copy the constants into the right place as for one function
2014-05-23T13:41:59Z amgarching: Next best would be "fluids" or "parameters" that are often useful as globals but still used in 2-3 places only
2014-05-23T13:42:38Z hkBst: amgarching, racket has something to define multiple values at the same time, which could be used to share a local environment... define-values IIRC
2014-05-23T13:46:51Z amgarching: I guess I want too much. How is one supposed to limit the scope of (define c 300) without limiting that of (define (f x) (use c))?
2014-05-23T13:47:57Z hkBst: amgarching, ask your implementor about a define-values primitive if you're not using racket?
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2014-05-23T13:50:02Z hkBst: amgarching, http://community.schemewiki.org/?syntax-define-values
2014-05-23T13:51:06Z amgarching: I've seen it being used. Not there yet: http://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/guile-devel/2013-12/msg00016.html Also too cumbersome  for beginners.
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2014-05-23T17:59:26Z DrDuck: Hey guys I wanted to ask about exercise 2.42 from SICP: http://mitpress.mit.edu/sicp/full-text/book/book-Z-H-15.html#%_thm_2.42 How am I to deduce how this bloody thing works?
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2014-05-23T18:30:31Z turbofail: you can think of it as doing a tree traversal
2014-05-23T18:31:47Z turbofail: well there's all sorts of ways you could think about it
2014-05-23T18:32:55Z turbofail: i guess first, what do you mean by "this bloody thing."  do you mean the bit of code they give you, or the question itself?
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2014-05-23T18:47:56Z DrDuck: turbofail: i mean the bit of code they gave me. well both, i suppose. the bits i've looked u about the problem involve a concept called backtracking, which the book hasn't introduced yet
2014-05-23T18:49:02Z turbofail: did you read the description of the code in the question text?  it gives a pretty good explanation i thought
2014-05-23T18:50:38Z DrDuck: i did. i think i need to just put more time into understanding, though. i'm short on time now because of work. i'll be back later
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2014-05-24T05:43:50Z cva: i can't understand how Applicative order and Normal order  evaluation differs for evaluating expression given in exercise 1.4  of SICP book
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2014-05-24T05:50:04Z cva: In normal order evaluation "first substitute operand expressions for parameters until it obtained an expression involving only primitive operators", then to evaluate (test 0 (p)) (p) should be substituted to get primitive operators
2014-05-24T05:50:04Z cva:  it will not happen as it is infinite loop
2014-05-24T05:50:04Z cva:  so both normal order and applicative order evaluation  results in infinite
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2014-05-24T07:27:27Z ultra-straw-man: cva: in the other evaluation order the arguments aren't evaluated until they are needed, and in (test 0 (p)) since (= 0 0) is true (p) is never needed
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2014-05-24T07:34:26Z ultra-straw-man: I guess what i mean is how if is evaluated is the key point for ex 1.5 it's mentioned in the text for 1.5
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2014-05-24T17:15:22Z leppie: cky: just gave 3 upvotes to your answers :) dont wanna do more in case it is detected ;p
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2014-05-24T17:26:13Z jusss: [ ] means ?
2014-05-24T17:27:44Z taylanub: jusss: context?  in some systems [ and ] are equivalent to ( and ).
2014-05-24T17:28:55Z jusss: (define lookup (lambda (x env) (let ([p (assq x env)]) (cond [(not p) x] [else (cdr p)]))))
2014-05-24T17:30:22Z taylanub: yeah, they're just ()
2014-05-24T17:30:56Z jusss: why not use () ?
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2014-05-24T17:31:00Z taylanub: which I would personally advise against, just use Paredit or an equivalent and get used to the visual appearance of stuff like (let ((foo bar)) baz)
2014-05-24T17:31:15Z taylanub: jusss: because some people think two consecutive ( are a problem
2014-05-24T17:32:41Z taylanub: in extreme cases you may get something like:
2014-05-24T17:32:41Z taylanub: (let-values (((foo bar)
2014-05-24T17:32:41Z taylanub:               (whatever))
2014-05-24T17:32:41Z taylanub:              ((baz bat)
2014-05-24T17:32:45Z taylanub:               (quux)))
2014-05-24T17:32:51Z taylanub:   (blahblah))
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2014-05-24T17:34:30Z taylanub: the `do' syntax is pretty weird too, but just use it a couple times and you get used to it, and I'm skeptic whether some [] here and there would even help
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2014-05-24T17:34:55Z jusss: i see
2014-05-24T17:36:46Z taylanub: plus there's better things to use [] for: http://srfi.schemers.org/srfi-105/srfi-105.html  example: (+ (vector-ref v1 x) (vector-ref v2 y)) turns into {v1[x] + v2[y]}
2014-05-24T17:36:59Z taylanub: it's all subjective/opinions obviously
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2014-05-24T17:41:35Z jusss: i see, thx :-)
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2014-05-24T17:54:44Z cky: leppie: Thanks! :-D
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2014-05-25T13:44:43Z jim: I want to represent the duration of notes using something akin to a fraction, and then I want to add/subtract/reduce
2014-05-25T13:45:36Z jim: would I be able to use stuff already in scheme to do that? or would I need to, ehrm, actually program? :)
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2014-05-25T13:46:53Z vraid: jim: scheme has full support for arithmetic on fractions
2014-05-25T13:48:28Z jim: that's what I thought.. so if for example I wanted to represent a quarter note tied to an eighth, the part of the note representing duration would be 3/8?
2014-05-25T13:49:03Z vraid: yeah
2014-05-25T13:49:11Z vraid: (+ 1/4 1/8) will return 3/8
2014-05-25T13:50:01Z jim: I might like to represent a note as (list pitch duration) and the duration might look like (3 8)
2014-05-25T13:50:31Z vraid: you can easily convert that to a fraction and perform arithmetic
2014-05-25T13:50:44Z vraid: addition, subtraction, multiplication, division, all the while it remains as fractions
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2014-05-25T13:51:36Z jim: would I be doing a fair amount of conversion between the (num denom) form and the internal fraction form
2014-05-25T13:51:39Z jim: ?
2014-05-25T13:52:13Z jim: here's something I'm worried about...
2014-05-25T13:53:02Z vraid: do you want to get the (3 8) format back after performing arithmetic on fractions?
2014-05-25T13:53:10Z jim: what if the internal fraction form turns it into a decimal, when it's been at home as numerator and denominator?
2014-05-25T13:53:20Z jim: maybe, I'm evaluating that now
2014-05-25T13:53:42Z vraid: fractions will never turn into decimals if all you have is fractions
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2014-05-25T13:53:58Z taylanub: jim: Scheme has the concept of "exact numbers" which in many implementations covers rational numbers.  Calculations are exact as long as all the inputs are exact numbers; as soon as an inexact one comes in the calculation is "tainted" and the exact ones are also turned into ineaxct, so to say.  Inexact rationals are generally floating-point numbers.
2014-05-25T13:55:19Z jim: thanks, right now I'm playing with 8th notes, so I'll have things like 5/8 and 2/8 etc as I add em up
2014-05-25T13:55:41Z jim: that explanation has me much less worried
2014-05-25T13:56:35Z jim: does guile have exact-number rationals?
2014-05-25T13:56:41Z taylanub: yes
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2014-05-25T13:57:00Z jim: great, that should work really great
2014-05-25T13:57:22Z Semi_Slav: Who created scheme, Friedman?
2014-05-25T13:57:55Z Semi_Slav: Dan Friedman?
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2014-05-25T14:00:26Z jim: I am running the great google oracle... so far sussman's name is dropped, but I think he was just commenting... he says scheme arose from MIT as a dialect of lisp that had challenges applied to its design
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2014-05-25T14:00:45Z taylanub: Semi_Slav: wut?  Gerald Jay Sussman and Guy Lewis Steele
2014-05-25T14:01:05Z jim: oh, it was sussman?
2014-05-25T14:01:34Z Semi_Slav: tayanub: Are you sure? I thought it was a project, started at Indiana university. I go to that university and am majoring in CS and I've been told he created it
2014-05-25T14:01:56Z Semi_Slav: He teaches an advanced scheme class down the road that I'm somewhat dreading
2014-05-25T14:02:01Z jim: hee hoo?
2014-05-25T14:02:07Z Semi_Slav: http://www.soic.indiana.edu/people/profiles/friedman-daniel.shtml
2014-05-25T14:02:10Z taylanub: samth: ftp://publications.ai.mit.edu/ai-publications/pdf/AIM-349.pdf
2014-05-25T14:02:20Z jim: oh you mean your teacher at indiana
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2014-05-25T14:03:07Z Semi_Slav: Yeah thats him
2014-05-25T14:03:26Z taylanub: "In the 1980s, Friedman turned to the study of Scheme. He explored the use of macros for defining programming languages; with Kohlbecker, Felleisen, and Duba, he co-introduced the notion of 'hygienic macros' in a 1986 LFP paper that is still widely cited today.[2] With Haynes and Wand, he simultaneously studied the nature of continuation objects, their uses, and the possibilities of constraining them.[3] Following t
2014-05-25T14:03:26Z taylanub: Felleisen introduced a lambda calculus with continuations and control operators.[4] Their work has spawned work on semantics, connections between classical logic and computation, and practical extensions of continuations."
2014-05-25T14:03:28Z jim: Semi_Slav, if you're pretty comfortable with math and symbolics, that class will be fun... IF you have time :)
2014-05-25T14:03:45Z taylanub: apparently Dan Friedman had big contributions .. silly me, not remembering his name
2014-05-25T14:04:07Z taylanub: Sussman and Steele started Scheme though, with the PDF I linked above, from 1975
2014-05-25T14:04:17Z Semi_Slav: Yeah emphasis on time is my concern. Joggling a lot of other tough classes <.<
2014-05-25T14:04:22Z Semi_Slav: Juggling
2014-05-25T14:04:40Z jim: you mean in that particular term?
2014-05-25T14:04:54Z Semi_Slav: Yeah. Ive heard his class is rough too
2014-05-25T14:05:30Z Semi_Slav: http://gradedistribution.registrar.indiana.edu/gradedist.php?dept=&subject=CSCI-C+&crse=311&clsnbr=&instrname=&report_selection=gradedist&search_process=go
2014-05-25T14:05:31Z rudybot: http://tinyurl.com/mqgxlrz
2014-05-25T14:05:32Z jim: hope you're not taking the equiv of 6.171 / older name 6.916
2014-05-25T14:05:34Z Semi_Slav: All those withdraws <.<
2014-05-25T14:06:22Z jim: what's that class a prerequsite for?
2014-05-25T14:06:38Z Semi_Slav: Computer science major
2014-05-25T14:06:47Z Semi_Slav: its the last of the foundation classes
2014-05-25T14:06:51Z Semi_Slav: before your specialization
2014-05-25T14:07:08Z jim: well...
2014-05-25T14:07:10Z Semi_Slav: the first and last classes are taught in scheme
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2014-05-25T14:07:40Z jim: all I can say is unless you find a very understanding and homework-helping gf, you gonna be dateless :)
2014-05-25T14:08:00Z Semi_Slav: xD
2014-05-25T14:08:03Z jim: first being SICP?
2014-05-25T14:08:35Z Semi_Slav: Ive never looked into that
2014-05-25T14:09:02Z jim: what's the class you say is first class taught in scheme?
2014-05-25T14:09:35Z Semi_Slav: Its just the introduction to CS
2014-05-25T14:09:36Z Semi_Slav: http://gradedistribution.registrar.indiana.edu/gradedist.php?dept=&subject=CSCI-C+&crse=211&clsnbr=&instrname=&report_selection=gradedist&search_process=go
2014-05-25T14:09:37Z rudybot: http://tinyurl.com/lvmtjsc
2014-05-25T14:09:42Z Semi_Slav: which tends to weed out the most people
2014-05-25T14:10:00Z jim: you taking that in same term?
2014-05-25T14:10:18Z Semi_Slav: It was basically recursive principles, traversing through different data structures (vectors, matrices, lists, images, trees, ect)
2014-05-25T14:10:26Z Semi_Slav: Im done with that class
2014-05-25T14:10:44Z Semi_Slav: Im currently taking the third of the 4, fourth being Friedmans class
2014-05-25T14:10:47Z jim: did they build a lisp interpreter in scheme?
2014-05-25T14:11:08Z Semi_Slav: We were using wombat if your familiar  with that
2014-05-25T14:11:17Z jim: nope :)
2014-05-25T14:11:25Z Semi_Slav: Im not sure who built that
2014-05-25T14:11:38Z Semi_Slav: http://www.cs.indiana.edu/cgi-pub/c211/wombat/
2014-05-25T14:11:48Z jim: I'll just summarize my pt in passing....
2014-05-25T14:13:40Z jim: in SICP, they do those kinds of things (recursive principles), and near the end, as a demo of those principles and of the data structure stuff, they have you build a scheme interp in scheme
2014-05-25T14:14:17Z jim: they give you pieces of it, in the 1985 lectures there were a coupla bugs I found :)
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2014-05-25T14:16:02Z Semi_Slav: That could be interesting since I'm sure that'd be a collaborative effort
2014-05-25T14:16:14Z Semi_Slav: hopefully..
2014-05-25T14:17:35Z jim: In some of the exercises I've seen lately, they give you code for a subset of scheme, then you add stuff to it
2014-05-25T14:17:43Z jim: like single features
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2014-05-25T14:18:26Z jim: like maybe, here's code for the interp... unfortunately (awww...) cond is missing... make a cond
2014-05-25T14:18:55Z Semi_Slav: Well if i run into some problems ill be coming here for help xD
2014-05-25T14:19:05Z Semi_Slav: Office hours are useful too lol
2014-05-25T14:19:25Z jim: of course... get in that office pretty often
2014-05-25T14:19:36Z Semi_Slav: Hey just curious, how familiar are you with crypto-currency or anyone idling here for that matter
2014-05-25T14:19:52Z jim: me? not at all :)
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2014-05-25T14:20:31Z Semi_Slav: You should look into it. Ive become absorbed recently. I think it has a lot of potential in the future
2014-05-25T14:20:36Z Semi_Slav: Ill find an article real quick
2014-05-25T14:20:55Z jim: I'll book mark :)
2014-05-25T14:21:23Z Semi_Slav: http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/the-switch/wp/2014/05/21/marc-andreessen-in-20-years-well-talk-about-bitcoin-like-we-talk-about-the-internet-today/
2014-05-25T14:21:24Z rudybot: http://tinyurl.com/pfequxk
2014-05-25T14:22:04Z Semi_Slav: Should be right up your ally. Ive been following it for awhile now. And just recently am i starting to over hear some of the CS people talking about it
2014-05-25T14:22:46Z Semi_Slav: #bitcoin is a great place to talk and ask questions
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2014-05-25T14:23:03Z jim: then the question of the day will still be (as it was in 1913)... WHAT is the IRS definition of "income"?!
2014-05-25T14:23:12Z Semi_Slav: lol
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2014-05-25T14:29:49Z jim: OK, I figured out how to get the num and denom from a fraction... is there something in scheme like (make-rational num denom)?
2014-05-25T14:33:53Z jim: hmm. the answer seems to be, just do the division
2014-05-25T14:34:56Z vraid: complicated, isn't it :)
2014-05-25T14:35:38Z jim: yeah well, I remember having to implement a simple form of that, we didn't have to integrate it into the number system
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2014-05-25T14:39:08Z jim: aaannnnnnddddd it reduces em for you
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2014-05-25T14:42:45Z jim tries to decide if that's a good thing... I think I can work with that :)
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2014-05-25T14:48:33Z jim: I'm not going to be working with things like triplets (or n-tuplets) for this project yet... we're just converting rests after attacks to a note holding the entire duration
2014-05-25T14:49:03Z jim: but initial research shows tuplets are doable
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2014-05-25T20:05:55Z saolsen: anybody know a library for 3d geometry primitives, transformations (and hopefully rendering) in any scheme?
2014-05-25T20:07:33Z offby1: *crickets*
2014-05-25T20:07:49Z offby1: I'd find a scheme with a nice FFI, and a library with a C interface
2014-05-25T20:09:06Z taylanub: sounds like Guile
2014-05-25T20:10:16Z offby1: or racket
2014-05-25T20:12:31Z saolsen: yeah, obviously there are lots of things I could call into. I want a scheme representation of the primitives though, I feel like that's a lot more flexable.
2014-05-25T20:13:07Z saolsen: specifically I'm after something similar to what mathematica has.
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2014-05-25T21:36:26Z ecraven: saolsen: I've privately started bindings for libcairo in MIT/GNU Scheme, not hard given an ffi. How exactly is that different than a "scheme representation of the primitives"?
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2014-05-25T21:50:36Z nisstyre: ecraven: can you port that to Racket or Guile?
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2014-05-25T21:50:57Z nisstyre: (Guile might already have some)
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2014-05-25T22:10:07Z civodul: nisstyre: indeed, http://www.nongnu.org/guile-cairo/
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2014-05-26T01:55:31Z zacts: jim: are you the same jim on #music-theory?
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2014-05-26T04:13:28Z nisstyre: zacts: there can only be one person with a given nick on freenode at a time
2014-05-26T04:13:31Z nisstyre: fyi
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2014-05-26T06:18:43Z ecraven: nisstyre: generally FFI code is probably not portable, but as far as I remember (the part of) cairo (that I used) doesn't have any problematic C code.
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2014-05-26T14:08:48Z jim: zacts, well I'm not there now, but yes I been there
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2014-05-26T15:08:50Z macrobat: is there a way to limit overall racket RAM useage?
2014-05-26T15:10:50Z macrobat: usage is hard to spell
2014-05-26T15:14:19Z add^_: I think it's set by default to 128MB or something
2014-05-26T15:14:28Z add^_: Isn't it?
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2014-05-26T15:17:04Z macrobat: an infinite recurse froze the computer
2014-05-26T15:17:33Z add^_: Maybe you've set it to unlimited, because usually there is a limit..
2014-05-26T15:17:36Z add^_: But I don't know
2014-05-26T15:18:14Z vraid: macrobat: racket -> limit memory
2014-05-26T15:18:33Z vraid: in the menu
2014-05-26T15:18:43Z macrobat: maybe dr racket sets things up. I use emacs and the geiser "plugin" to talk to racket
2014-05-26T15:19:07Z taylanub: macrobat: if you set a limit explicitly with 'ulimit', subprocesses can't set something higher
2014-05-26T15:19:09Z macrobat: how do you limit the memory programatically?
2014-05-26T15:19:18Z taylanub: (I mean on the Unix level)
2014-05-26T15:20:02Z macrobat: oh, I thought that was file size limit only
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2014-05-26T15:22:16Z macrobat: how do you get the environment dr racket sets up?
2014-05-26T15:23:08Z jusss: (define bla (lambda (n) n)) (let ((n 3)) (bla 9)) ;how many stacks this will make ?
2014-05-26T15:23:27Z offby1: macrobat: you can certainly limit CPU, RAM, et al for a particular computation (rudybot does that in its "sandboxes") but I dunno about overall.
2014-05-26T15:23:33Z taylanub: jusss: you mean stack frames?  depends on the implementation
2014-05-26T15:23:37Z offby1: macrobat: you could simply invoke it with "ulimit", on a Unix-like system.
2014-05-26T15:23:49Z offby1: curse taylanub and his fast fingers
2014-05-26T15:23:56Z taylanub: :)
2014-05-26T15:24:20Z taylanub: jusss: for instance a smart implementation will just optimize that whole code to the constant value 9
2014-05-26T15:24:51Z taylanub: a naive implementation might create one stack frame for the `let' and another for the call to `bla'
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2014-05-26T15:26:49Z jusss: taylanub: frames means structure?
2014-05-26T15:27:08Z jusss: taylanub: my english is poor
2014-05-26T15:27:25Z macrobat: there's a plt:framework-pref:drracket:child-only-memory-limit , but how do I apply something like it?
2014-05-26T15:27:32Z taylanub: jusss: "the stack" is made of "stack frames"  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stack_frame#Structure
2014-05-26T15:27:40Z offby1: macrobat: is ulimit out of the question?
2014-05-26T15:27:59Z macrobat: idk, the man page says it limits file size
2014-05-26T15:28:57Z offby1: it also limits other stuff.  Read more carefully.
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2014-05-26T15:30:06Z macrobat: crap online man page.
2014-05-26T15:30:42Z offby1: I refuse to crap online: I still have some dignity left.
2014-05-26T15:30:49Z offby1: I don't care if it's what all the kids are doing now.
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2014-05-26T15:51:00Z macrobat: C seems safer for now
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2014-05-26T18:40:24Z taylanub: macrobat: refer to your shell's man-page; ulimit is generally a built-in
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2014-05-26T19:13:50Z macrobat: can emacs geiser connect to an running scheme? it seems to launch a new one
2014-05-26T19:14:03Z offby1: don't think so.
2014-05-26T19:14:24Z offby1: your running scheme would have to have a separate thread to talk to geiser, and it probably doesn't.
2014-05-26T19:15:52Z vpm: macrobat: yes it can: http://www.nongnu.org/geiser/geiser_3.html#Starting-the-REPL
2014-05-26T19:18:18Z macrobat: how does a running racket identify itself?
2014-05-26T19:19:35Z macrobat: if I (define (foo) 'bar) in one racket, there's no foo defined in the other. so I guess they are separate
2014-05-26T19:19:45Z macrobat: is ther a better test?
2014-05-26T19:22:06Z offby1: vpm: cool, I didn't know that
2014-05-26T19:22:32Z offby1: macrobat: the docs suggest that your test should work
2014-05-26T19:25:22Z macrobat: ok
2014-05-26T19:26:23Z macrobat: I seem to have a geiser problem and a couple of emacs problems ontop of the scheme problem. maybe some other day :D
2014-05-26T19:26:36Z offby1: call a plumber!
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2014-05-26T19:43:16Z Rptx: Hi, I have defined a simple procedure, that reads a line of input,
2014-05-26T19:43:16Z Rptx:        displays it, and then calls itself. But after the first time, I can't
2014-05-26T19:43:16Z Rptx:        write to the REPL buffer any more "Buffer is read-only" I can't even
2014-05-26T19:43:16Z Rptx:        C-c C-q
2014-05-26T19:43:49Z taylanub: Rptx: you mean you're using Geiser?
2014-05-26T19:43:58Z Rptx: I'm using geiser, with emacs 24, and guile
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2014-05-26T19:44:45Z Rptx: yeah. I was typing that.
2014-05-26T19:44:51Z offby1: Rptx: that's sort of geiser's problem.  I'd forget about geiser while you're working out the kinks in your program.
2014-05-26T19:45:04Z offby1: just use a plain old terminal
2014-05-26T19:45:28Z Rptx: Yeah, I know it is a geiser problem, cus in a terminal the program works just fine
2014-05-26T19:45:44Z taylanub: yeah I can reproduce and I think it's simply a limitation of Geiser .. "patches welcome" I guess
2014-05-26T19:45:52Z Rptx: I was just wondering if this is a known problem, or if the is a fix.
2014-05-26T19:47:02Z taylanub: poking around in Geiser will lead to one or another fix, no idea for how much effort
2014-05-26T19:48:21Z Rptx: Is geiser development active?
2014-05-26T19:48:57Z Rptx: last version is from December 2013, so I think it is. but I'm not sure
2014-05-26T19:49:21Z taylanub: Rptx: the developer hangs in #guile IIRC .. maybe here too
2014-05-26T19:49:38Z taylanub: I forgot their name
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2014-05-26T19:51:54Z Rptx: taylanub: actually, I wrote hours ago in #geiser but no answer.
2014-05-26T19:52:40Z offby1: Rptx: my hunch is that jao doesn't work on gesier steadily, but on the other hand he's a cool guy, and will probably be willing to answer questions
2014-05-26T19:52:44Z offby1: try email though
2014-05-26T19:52:45Z offby1: rudybot: seen jao
2014-05-26T19:52:45Z rudybot: *offby1: jao was seen joining in #racket one hour ago, and then jao was seen quitting one hour ago, saying "Changing host"
2014-05-26T19:53:35Z DrDuck: Howdy. Could anyone give me a helping hand in understanding what I'm doing incorrectly with SICP exercise 2.42? I'm having two big issues: checking the board to make sure that queen placement is not in diagonal rows, and checking the board to make sure that queen placement is not in the same row
2014-05-26T19:53:46Z DrDuck: Here is my code: https://www.refheap.com/85938
2014-05-26T19:53:59Z offby1: ah, the old n-queens problem
2014-05-26T19:54:03Z DrDuck: It's a lot to ask out of help, I know, but I figured it was worth a shot.
2014-05-26T19:54:05Z DrDuck: x_x
2014-05-26T19:54:25Z DrDuck: been stuck for a few days
2014-05-26T19:54:42Z offby1: that's way too much code for me to digest for free.
2014-05-26T19:54:50Z DrDuck: i understand
2014-05-26T19:55:14Z offby1: without looking at your code, here's what comes to mind:
2014-05-26T19:55:28Z offby1: represent the posistions of each queen by a pair of coordinates -- row and column.
2014-05-26T19:55:38Z offby1: then to see if two queens are attacking each other, you can do simple math:
2014-05-26T19:55:56Z offby1: if they're on the same diagonal, then the difference between their *mumble*s will be the same, or something.
2014-05-26T19:56:03Z offby1: as you can see I haven't thought this through
2014-05-26T19:56:14Z taylanub snickers
2014-05-26T19:56:28Z offby1: if they're in the same row, then obviously the row number in their coordinates will be the same.
2014-05-26T19:56:36Z offby1: taylanub: now now.
2014-05-26T19:56:42Z offby1: taylanub: at least I'm trying a _little_ bit.
2014-05-26T19:57:34Z DrDuck: right
2014-05-26T19:58:11Z offby1: so ... you'll probably have some code that does that simple math for each possible pair of queens.
2014-05-26T19:58:24Z offby1: That's inefficient in theory, but might be OK in practice.
2014-05-26T19:58:35Z offby1: I forget how many bazillion times you need to do that check to solve the problem.
2014-05-26T19:58:38Z DrDuck: i've indeed done that
2014-05-26T19:58:57Z offby1: another idea is, for each queen, "mark" the squares on the board that she's attacking.
2014-05-26T19:58:59Z DrDuck: (cons (cons row col) rest-of-queens) is my representation of adjoining a queen on a new column to the sequence of queens i already have in previous columns
2014-05-26T19:59:12Z offby1: Then you can quickly see if any of the other queens  occupy any of those squares.
2014-05-26T19:59:32Z offby1: that seems reasonable at first glance
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2014-05-26T20:00:00Z taylanub: re. diagonal: "{x1,y1} and {x2,y2} are diagonally aligned" = (((x1 - y1) = (x2 - y2)) or ((y1 - x1) = (y2 - x2))) maybe.  (go ahead, burn me for infix)
2014-05-26T20:00:20Z Rptx:  DrDuck: Do you want an complete answer, or help doing your own?
2014-05-26T20:01:00Z Rptx: DrDuck: http://community.schemewiki.org/?sicp-ex-2.42
2014-05-26T20:01:01Z DrDuck: Rptx: Help doing my own.
2014-05-26T20:01:14Z Rptx: well, then don't look at the link I just sent
2014-05-26T20:01:42Z DrDuck: Although if I'm asking for help, I basically should just look at what I did wrong from one of the many references online.
2014-05-26T20:02:12Z Rptx: well, as offby1 said, Each position is a piar of numbers.
2014-05-26T20:02:13Z DrDuck: I'm close, so I'm gonna just keep pushing with it. If I don't get anything by the end of the day, I'll just look at one of the solutions done already.
2014-05-26T20:03:09Z offby1: the only solutions I can find that I did myself all use "amb"
2014-05-26T20:04:02Z Rptx: Well, let me help, checking if it is on the same row is easy.
2014-05-26T20:04:54Z DrDuck: for checking if it's on the same row, i have the following
2014-05-26T20:05:07Z DrDuck: https://www.refheap.com/85939
2014-05-26T20:05:46Z DrDuck: the input is a list of rows since columns don't much matter here
2014-05-26T20:06:03Z DrDuck: '(1 2 1 3), etc.
2014-05-26T20:06:19Z DrDuck: checking if it's diagonal i have the following:
2014-05-26T20:06:44Z DrDuck: https://www.refheap.com/85940
2014-05-26T20:07:20Z DrDuck: again the columns don't matter here with the code already provided in the book, so i have a list of rows
2014-05-26T20:08:16Z DrDuck: as input
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2014-05-26T20:11:09Z Rptx: But, in the book, the imput to safe is positions.
2014-05-26T20:12:33Z Rptx: and from you code, what does `contains?` do?
2014-05-26T20:13:18Z DrDuck: right. i take (map car positions) into my checking functions to not have to deal with nested pairs
2014-05-26T20:13:30Z DrDuck: contains: https://www.refheap.com/85939
2014-05-26T20:13:43Z DrDuck: the entirety of the code: https://www.refheap.com/85938
2014-05-26T20:14:04Z Rptx: well, if you only have rows, then you just need to check if the first is repeated.
2014-05-26T20:15:06Z DrDuck: yes indeed
2014-05-26T20:17:06Z Rptx: In your code, contains? already does all the work, you don't need safe-row to loop
2014-05-26T20:17:36Z Rptx: safe-row just need to call contains, with (car positions) as item, and
2014-05-26T20:17:44Z Rptx: (cdr positions) as items
2014-05-26T20:19:44Z DrDuck: safe-row does the check on every element of the list, while contains checks if a single element is in a given list
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2014-05-26T20:21:45Z DrDuck: i think i should probably start over and focus on making it obvious what are the constructors and selectors in my code like this guy does:http://community.schemewiki.org/?sicp-ex-2.42
2014-05-26T20:21:47Z DrDuck: my code isn't very readable
2014-05-26T20:21:52Z DrDuck: in comparison
2014-05-26T20:22:31Z Rptx: You need only to check if the new queen is safe, the rest of them in position, are
2014-05-26T20:22:37Z Rptx: guaranteed to be safe already
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2014-05-26T20:26:55Z DrDuck: woah
2014-05-26T20:27:05Z DrDuck: that's right i didnt realize that Rptx
2014-05-26T20:27:09Z DrDuck: that might change some things
2014-05-26T20:27:20Z Rptx: It changes everything.
2014-05-26T20:27:24Z DrDuck: :o
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2014-05-26T20:28:49Z Rptx: Should be much easier now
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2014-05-26T20:31:25Z Rptx: for diagonal just check to see if the (abs (- x x)) is the same
2014-05-26T20:32:48Z Rptx: and only the up-diagonal is left for you to fo
2014-05-26T20:32:48Z DrDuck: Rptx: (abs (- x x)) is the same?
2014-05-26T20:32:48Z Rptx: do
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2014-05-26T20:33:51Z Rptx: let me be clearer, if (abs (- row col)) they are in the same diagonal
2014-05-26T20:34:23Z Rptx: If the new queen is in (5,5), then (4,4) (3,3) (2,2) (1,1) can attack it, and its not safe
2014-05-26T20:35:11Z Rptx: (- 5 5) == (- 4 4)
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2014-05-26T20:35:19Z Rptx: and so on
2014-05-26T20:36:11Z Rptx: you will need the columns for this. Not just the rows as before
2014-05-26T20:37:13Z DrDuck: i'm not sure i follow. the way i saw it was if (<= 2 (abs (- row_1 row_2))) then the two queens are diagonal
2014-05-26T20:38:27Z Rptx: (<= 2 (abs (- 5 1)))
2014-05-26T20:38:56Z DrDuck: :\
2014-05-26T20:38:59Z DrDuck: oh
2014-05-26T20:39:06Z DrDuck: woops
2014-05-26T20:39:38Z Rptx: Your method does not work.
2014-05-26T20:40:41Z Rptx: You can have a queen in (5,5) and another in (1,2) and your test will be #t
2014-05-26T20:40:54Z Rptx: and they are not diagonal to eachother
2014-05-26T20:41:08Z turbofail: yeah, if you intend to find out whether something is diagonal to you, you can't only look at the difference between rows
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2014-05-26T20:41:38Z turbofail: as Rptx was saying, the way to find whether something is diagonal is if the horizontal and vertical distances are equal
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2014-05-26T20:43:58Z taylanub: (((x1 - y1) = (x2 - y2)) or ((y1 - x1) = (x2 - y2)))  ;right?  or use abs, of course
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2014-05-26T20:44:58Z taylanub: rudybot: let's fail at basic arithmetic
2014-05-26T20:44:59Z rudybot: taylanub: Yep.  A bug in handling hardware arithmetic traps.  See <http://mumble.net/~campbell/tmp/linux-fpe-bug.c>.
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2014-05-26T20:45:57Z Rptx: right
2014-05-26T20:46:15Z Rptx: but that only works for the "down" diagonal. In chess, you also have an "up" diagonal
2014-05-26T20:46:39Z turbofail: abs is definitely the easiest way of dealing with it
2014-05-26T20:46:54Z Rptx: (5,5) and (4,6) are also diagonl
2014-05-26T20:46:59Z Rptx: diagonal*
2014-05-26T21:03:56Z Rptx: in http://community.schemewiki.org/?sicp-ex-2.42, they have changed `adjoin-position` to add
2014-05-26T21:04:43Z Rptx: only rows, so they do have only a list of rows. becuase they know that the cols are "in order" so to speak
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2014-05-26T21:14:44Z DrDuck: hmm
2014-05-26T21:17:58Z Rptx: So if the row of the queen is 5, they test the first element agains 5, 4 (diagonal) and 6 (antidiagonal
2014-05-26T21:18:32Z Rptx: which would be the queen in the 4th column, (if the one being test is in the 5th)
2014-05-26T21:18:53Z Rptx: Then test it against 5, 3 and 7. And so on, until there are no more. Donno If you get it
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2014-05-27T01:51:03Z DrDuck: Rptx: it works!
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2014-05-27T01:52:43Z DrDuck: Rptx: https://www.refheap.com/85951
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2014-05-27T02:01:01Z Rptx: very good.
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2014-05-27T02:10:44Z catern: when writing an interpreter that uses continuation-passing semantics, how to handle functions of arbitrary arity? i can't figure out how to write such a function without macros, which is surely not needed. it needs to run (apply operator operands cont), but how do I build the operands list?
2014-05-27T02:13:24Z catern: a hint would preferably to fully spoiling the fun :)
2014-05-27T02:15:09Z nisstyre: catern: curry them
2014-05-27T02:17:14Z catern: nisstyre: but I have arbitrary numbers of operands - I don't know how to use all the curried variables bound to the expressed values in the final (apply operator (list operand1 operand2 ...) cont) without using macros and generated symbols
2014-05-27T02:17:38Z catern: but actually I think I'm on to something now
2014-05-27T02:17:39Z nisstyre: catern: are you doing closure conversion?
2014-05-27T02:17:56Z catern: nisstyre: not sure what that is
2014-05-27T02:18:01Z nisstyre: that involves having *another* parameter which is the environment struct
2014-05-27T02:18:12Z nisstyre: catern: eliminating free variables
2014-05-27T02:18:29Z catern: oh, yes, I pass around an environment
2014-05-27T02:19:02Z catern: but apply doesn't need the environment because it uses the stored one in the closure, right?
2014-05-27T02:19:38Z nisstyre: invoking a closure involves calling the function stored in the closure with the environment somehow
2014-05-27T02:19:47Z nisstyre: an easy way to do that is to make it a parameter
2014-05-27T02:20:04Z nisstyre: then you just translate your free variables to accessors
2014-05-27T02:20:30Z nisstyre: e.g. (define (f a) (+ a b)) becomes (define (f env a) (+ a (get 'a env)))
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2014-05-27T02:20:34Z nisstyre: or something along those lines
2014-05-27T02:20:56Z nisstyre: so I don't see how that's incompatible with continuation-passing
2014-05-27T02:20:58Z catern: would that help with this problem?
2014-05-27T02:21:07Z catern: i don't think it's incompatible either
2014-05-27T02:21:39Z nisstyre: there are specific continuation languages you can compile to as well
2014-05-27T02:24:30Z catern: not sure how that helps either? i'm sure this is possible in plain old scheme
2014-05-27T02:25:30Z nisstyre: catern: well, what do you have now?
2014-05-27T02:28:25Z catern: nisstyre: http://sprunge.us/MOdb
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2014-05-27T02:30:45Z nisstyre: catern: list looks unbound there
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2014-05-27T02:31:03Z catern: oh, it's supposed to be "operands"
2014-05-27T02:31:17Z catern: this code  isn't really at the runnable stage
2014-05-27T02:31:30Z nisstyre: ok
2014-05-27T02:31:30Z catern: (actually, I think it is)
2014-05-27T02:31:50Z catern: the problem right now is that it's growing the stack for each evaluated operand
2014-05-27T02:31:51Z nisstyre: anyway I'm not sure of how you should design this
2014-05-27T02:31:56Z nisstyre: I'd have to think about it
2014-05-27T02:32:10Z nisstyre: I could look in my copy of Lisp In Small Pieces to see how they handle it
2014-05-27T02:32:24Z nisstyre: actually, they might not do CPS
2014-05-27T02:32:45Z nisstyre: catern: how is that a problem?
2014-05-27T02:33:04Z catern: nisstyre: well, I don't think that needs to happen? or maybe it does
2014-05-27T02:33:43Z nisstyre: it probably depends
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2014-05-27T02:44:33Z catern: hmmmmm
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2014-05-27T11:54:52Z Steverman: I have problems figuring this out in this exercise
2014-05-27T11:54:56Z Steverman: http://users-cs.au.dk/danvy/dProgSprog/Lecture-notes/week-20.html#exercise-vanilla-fold-left-and-right
2014-05-27T11:54:56Z rudybot: http://tinyurl.com/nncvgzn
2014-05-27T11:55:45Z Steverman: if I type ((fold-right_nat 0 1+) 5) it returns 5
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2014-05-27T11:56:32Z Steverman: the difference between them is recursion/tail recursion but I'm not sure what "function" they are asking for
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2014-05-27T11:56:57Z Steverman: for the first two of course
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2014-05-27T20:51:56Z chrisirc: Hello. I'm using |compose| frequently; often I'm feeling that a composition function that takes the arguments in reverse order might make the code more readable,
2014-05-27T20:52:23Z chrisirc: especially when the arguments are not on the same line visually; then reading them as "do that then that" seems more natural.
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2014-05-27T20:53:10Z chrisirc: Is there a tradition of using a funtion like this (perhaps named |rcompose|)?
2014-05-27T20:53:46Z chrisirc: (define (compose f g) (lambda (x) (f (g x)))) (define (rcompose g f) (lambda (x) (f (g x))))
2014-05-27T20:54:16Z chrisirc: (perhaps with vararg lambdas instead, "of course")
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2014-05-27T22:22:06Z offby1: chrisirc: I'm not aware of one, but I bet Riastradh will have an answer
2014-05-27T22:22:10Z offby1: rudybot: seen Riastradh
2014-05-27T22:22:10Z rudybot: *offby1: Riastradh was seen quitting four hours ago, saying "Ping timeout: 272 seconds", and then Riastradh was seen joining in #scheme four hours ago
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2014-05-27T23:01:16Z jaimef: timesheets? aidagol you hourly?
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2014-05-28T01:31:14Z jcowan: hey ho
2014-05-28T01:31:21Z Riastradh: Oih.
2014-05-28T01:31:34Z jcowan: Ah, just the person I wanted to speak to.
2014-05-28T01:31:39Z Riastradh hides.
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2014-05-28T01:31:57Z Riastradh: I can't see you, you can't see me!
2014-05-28T01:32:01Z Riastradh: What's up?
2014-05-28T01:32:06Z jcowan: I'm trying to think what would be a good representation of a relational table in Scheme.
2014-05-28T01:32:26Z jcowan: The bulk data, that is; the metadata is straightforward (column names and domains).
2014-05-28T01:32:27Z Riastradh: Internal representation, or API manifestation?
2014-05-28T01:32:31Z jcowan: Internal.
2014-05-28T01:33:13Z jcowan: I've thought of a lot of things, from a set of hashtables to a vector of row vectors to a set of column vectors plus row lists.
2014-05-28T01:33:23Z Riastradh: Do you want to store it on disk?
2014-05-28T01:33:31Z jcowan: No, just in memory.
2014-05-28T01:33:49Z Riastradh: Well, even so, my usual approach to doing that is whatever sqlite3 does.
2014-05-28T01:33:55Z Riastradh: By which I mean: just using sqlite3.
2014-05-28T01:34:35Z jcowan: I don't know if it supports the full relational algebra, though.  In particular, I don't think you can express relational division in SQL.
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2014-05-28T01:37:09Z jcowan: My best idea so far is to keep each column sorted as a vector or a list, and then represent each row as a list of vector indices or list cells as the case may be.
2014-05-28T01:39:19Z jcowan: The trouble is that the representations which are efficient for some operations are inefficient for others, and there's no knowing which operations will matter.
2014-05-28T01:39:49Z Riastradh: For maximum flexibility and minimum O(n^k log n) worst-case performance for every operation (k = 0 for one-row queries, k = 1 for table/row queries, &c.) I'd probably be inclined to use a bb-tree sequence together with bb-tree maps to index the sequence.
2014-05-28T01:40:14Z jcowan: You mean, one such per column?
2014-05-28T01:40:19Z Riastradh: s/minimum \(O([^)]*)\)/minimum, \1,/1
2014-05-28T01:40:31Z Riastradh: One per column that you ever want to search by.
2014-05-28T01:40:42Z jcowan: Or join on.
2014-05-28T01:40:45Z Riastradh: Sure.
2014-05-28T01:41:19Z jcowan: One difficulty is that it limits your data to orderables.
2014-05-28T01:41:46Z Riastradh: What data aren't really orderable?
2014-05-28T01:42:21Z Riastradh: Are you planning to stuff procedures into your tables and hope for something sensible to happen?
2014-05-28T01:42:46Z jcowan: Well, you can impose arbitrary order on anything, I suppose.  But I was thinking of sets, hash tables, and nested relational tables.
2014-05-28T01:43:00Z jcowan: s/sets/hash sets
2014-05-28T01:43:38Z jcowan: None of which are naturally ordered.
2014-05-28T01:44:33Z Riastradh: (Aside: bb-trees are a nice, if somewhat high-overhead (~5n), abstraction that works well for sequences and maps, including concatenation, union/intersect, insert/delete, and find-by-position/find-by-key.  Overhead is too high in the real world (though you could maybe do bb+ trees to help), but they're a pretty idea.)
2014-05-28T01:45:12Z Riastradh: Well, the indices wouldn't be limited to bb-trees.  I suggested them mainly because that way you really need only one basic data structure.
2014-05-28T01:46:07Z Riastradh: A little more broadly, I'd choose a sequence with fast find-by-position/append/delete-by-position operations, and then separate indices for the columns you care about.
2014-05-28T01:46:08Z jcowan: Fair enough.  Why the bb-tree sequence, though?  Aren't the indexes enough?
2014-05-28T01:46:21Z jcowan: Ah, I see.
2014-05-28T01:46:41Z jcowan: But no, actually I don't.  What are the elements of this sequence?  You sound like there is only one sequence per table.
2014-05-28T01:46:42Z Riastradh: You need to be able to get the nth row, and you need to be able to delete the nth row, and you need to be able to append a new row and know what its n is.
2014-05-28T01:47:15Z jcowan: Okay, how is a row represented?
2014-05-28T01:47:24Z Riastradh: Tuple of column values.
2014-05-28T01:47:33Z jcowan nods.
2014-05-28T01:47:55Z Riastradh: Oh, but with a bb-tree the index will change.  I guess you really just want an integer-keyed map, not a sequence.
2014-05-28T01:48:53Z Riastradh: So, I'd just stuff tuples of column values in the heap and redundantly index the crap out of them.
2014-05-28T01:49:29Z jcowan: Right.  There's no need for a natural ordering, particularly since in proper RA duplicates aren't permitted.
2014-05-28T01:49:32Z Riastradh: Can always make indices on the fly, too, as you discover that they are needed.
2014-05-28T01:49:45Z jcowan nods.
2014-05-28T01:49:57Z jcowan: Logically it's a set of maps.
2014-05-28T01:51:18Z jcowan: There is no natural ordering, just equality.  You only need ordering so that you can use trees.
2014-05-28T01:51:49Z Riastradh: Well, you often want things like range queries, order by, &c.
2014-05-28T01:52:05Z Riastradh: Set operations are faster if everything's ordered.
2014-05-28T01:52:08Z jcowan: Yes, which is what the indexes are for (also for joins).
2014-05-28T01:53:33Z jcowan: In particular, merging unordered aggregates is painful.
2014-05-28T01:53:53Z jcowan: So in essence the data items have to be orderable.
2014-05-28T01:56:16Z jcowan: You could use an ordered hash table, though.
2014-05-28T01:56:41Z jcowan: Eh, it'll be a long time before I get to this.  Back to implementing hash sets and thinking about enums.
2014-05-28T01:57:01Z Riastradh: (SQL can express division, by the way.  The obvious way is:  r / s = SELECT r.a FROM r WHERE NOT EXISTS (SELECT * FROM s WHERE NOT EXISTS (SELECT * FROM r AS rx WHERE r.a = rx.a AND r.b = s.b)))
2014-05-28T01:58:05Z jcowan: Yeah, if you have access to the metadata so that you know what a and b are.
2014-05-28T01:58:53Z jcowan: Okay, thanks for the insights.  You may resume hiding.
2014-05-28T01:59:48Z Riastradh: Well, sure, but that's pretty much always the case with real-world tables -- the column names don't always magically work out the way you want (or when they magically work out it's in a way you don't want).
2014-05-28T02:00:34Z jcowan nods.
2014-05-28T02:01:56Z Riastradh: (Hmm, you need a DISTINCT in the outermost SELECT there.)
2014-05-28T02:02:15Z jcowan nods.
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2014-05-28T02:03:32Z jcowan: http://www.cs.arizona.edu/~mccann/research/divpresentation.pdf lists four ways to do it.
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2014-05-28T02:15:22Z Riastradh: I wonder whether the relational database code in SLIB is any good.
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2014-05-28T03:10:54Z t4nk683: Is there anyone know about metacircular evaluation?
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2014-05-28T11:32:16Z DrDuck: Is map a data structure in Scheme? It seems like an abstract procedure on a list so far in sicp. If so, does map in scheme have anything in common with map in, say, java that's built on a hashtable?
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2014-05-28T11:47:21Z mario-goulart: DrDuck: map is a procedure.  It is not related to hash tables.
2014-05-28T11:47:42Z mario-goulart: Hmmm.  schemers.org looks down.
2014-05-28T11:48:35Z mario-goulart: DrDuck: see http://api.call-cc.org/doc/scheme/map
2014-05-28T11:48:36Z DrDuck: mario-goulart: What is the difference between Scheme's map and Java's map is what I'm getting at.
2014-05-28T11:49:10Z mario-goulart: I don't know Java's map.  Is it like C++'s maps?
2014-05-28T11:49:18Z DrDuck: http://docs.oracle.com/javase/7/docs/api/java/util/Map.html
2014-05-28T11:49:48Z DrDuck: Or the difference between Scheme's map and C++'s map. Either will do.
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2014-05-28T11:50:48Z mario-goulart: map in scheme is a procedure (or "function", in other languages' nomenclature).  It serves to apply procedures to lists.
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2014-05-28T11:55:22Z ecraven: DrDuck: what Java calls a map is usually called a hash-map or hash-table in Schemes
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2014-05-28T12:12:42Z pjb: DrDuck: several different data structures can be used to implement maps.  You can use a-lists, p-lists, hash-tables, functions, etc.
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2014-05-28T12:15:46Z noncom: DrDuck: map in scheme is more like foreach in java
2014-05-28T12:16:04Z noncom: it goes over a sequence, applying a function to each element
2014-05-28T12:16:14Z noncom: and returns a sequence of results
2014-05-28T12:16:16Z pjb: a mapping function.
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2014-05-28T12:46:49Z davexunit: good morning, schemers.
2014-05-28T12:51:06Z davexunit: does anyone know of any prior art for doing vector (not the data structure) math in scheme?
2014-05-28T12:51:50Z davexunit: I'm writing a game library.  Originally, I limited myself to 2D and had a vector2 data type.  Now, I'd like to expand to handle 3D by making a vector3 data type.
2014-05-28T12:52:38Z davexunit: Ideally, I would like the same procedures that I have to support vector3 objects, but I've found a situation that makes such a thing difficult.
2014-05-28T12:54:32Z davexunit: I have a procedure, v+, that takes 0 or more vector2s and adds them together.  I tried to emulate + by returning an identity vector for addition if no arguments are given.  This falls apart when support for vector3 is added.  there's no way to determine what identity vector to return!
2014-05-28T12:55:17Z davexunit: so, my options are 1) redefine v+ to require at least 1 vector or 2) make distinct procedures for adding vector2s and vector3s.
2014-05-28T12:56:57Z jim: under what conditions would you add no vectors?
2014-05-28T12:57:50Z davexunit: well, let's say you were given a list that may be empty and you wanted to call (apply v+ vectors)
2014-05-28T12:58:08Z davexunit: it would fail with the empty list, and maybe that's okay!
2014-05-28T12:58:20Z jim: also, is it that v+ can't tell what dimensionality of vectors it's adding?
2014-05-28T12:58:38Z davexunit: yes, that's the case when no arguments are given.
2014-05-28T12:59:04Z davexunit: when 1 or more vectors are given, it can do the work.  adding vectors of different dimensionality results in an error.
2014-05-28T12:59:40Z jim: oh I see, so v+ can't know what dimensionality of identity vector to return.
2014-05-28T12:59:55Z davexunit: but I thought that it would be convenient for the user to just use v+ for both types of vectors rather than something like v2+ and v3+
2014-05-28T13:00:26Z davexunit: I also plan to add 4D vectors, for working with 4x4 matrices.
2014-05-28T13:00:57Z jim: oh you just answered a question I didn't ask yet, which is what happens when you add different kinds of vectors...
2014-05-28T13:02:00Z jim: so, if that's the case, what has you want v+ to be general enough to handle different dimensionalities?
2014-05-28T13:02:13Z jim: is it because you want to port your game or game toolkit?
2014-05-28T13:02:15Z davexunit: maybe it's just best to have distinct procedures for 2D, 3D, and 4D vectors.
2014-05-28T13:02:31Z davexunit: it's because I thought it would be convenient from a user's perspective.
2014-05-28T13:02:48Z noncom: maybe you can also make it possible to pass a default value
2014-05-28T13:03:01Z jim: that's kinda what I was thinking too, then you mentioned the error when combining different kinds of vectors,
2014-05-28T13:03:09Z davexunit: I'm using v+ as an example, but there's a lot of other vector math operations to support as well.
2014-05-28T13:03:13Z jim: so I wanted to get more pointedly curious
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2014-05-28T13:03:29Z noncom: or make some (identity vector) thing that will return an identity on n-dimensional vector
2014-05-28T13:03:41Z davexunit: I like that something like (+ 1 1.0 1/2) just works in scheme.
2014-05-28T13:04:02Z davexunit: but I guess vectors are a bit different, because they are incompatible with one another.
2014-05-28T13:04:20Z noncom: just return identity in case of zero-length list being passed
2014-05-28T13:04:34Z noncom: that identity, being whatevered with any vector just returns that vector
2014-05-28T13:04:42Z davexunit: noncom: I was thinking of having a special identity vector type that has no strict dimensionality that every vector procedure would know about.
2014-05-28T13:04:54Z davexunit: it complicates things, but maybe that's the best answer.
2014-05-28T13:05:12Z noncom: that's what i'm talking about. mathematically this is the best. but computationally... well.. :)
2014-05-28T13:05:28Z davexunit: I'll have to try that out.
2014-05-28T13:05:32Z jim: misread that as methomatically
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2014-05-28T13:05:50Z davexunit: I'll need 2 identities, 1 for multiplication and 1 for addition.
2014-05-28T13:05:54Z noncom: yeah, adding some meth can solve a problem :)
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2014-05-28T13:06:17Z davexunit: the addition identity is null-vector, and multiplication is identity-vector for lack of a better name.
2014-05-28T13:06:37Z noncom: idk about two identities. i think it can be the same one, but in different operations handled differently
2014-05-28T13:06:42Z noncom: no need to create two identies
2014-05-28T13:07:10Z davexunit: noncom: perhaps you're right.
2014-05-28T13:07:31Z davexunit: though it seems a bit awkward.
2014-05-28T13:07:43Z noncom: anyway, you cannot assign the result of zero vectors being added. when point in having two distinct identites for numbers * and + is in being able to assign
2014-05-28T13:07:53Z jim: one thing you could do is always supply one vector at least, that being the identity of the dimensionality you're working with
2014-05-28T13:08:12Z noncom: yeah, like retrn (1 1 1 1 ... N)
2014-05-28T13:08:46Z noncom: but internally - just one identity, and you interpret it at the end, depending on the context
2014-05-28T13:08:49Z noncom: i think so...
2014-05-28T13:08:51Z davexunit: jim: I'm doing that right now by changing the signature of v+ from (v+ . vectors) to (v+ v . rest)
2014-05-28T13:09:29Z davexunit: it might not be worth supporting calling v+ with 0 arguments at all.
2014-05-28T13:09:50Z noncom: true
2014-05-28T13:10:08Z jim: you're trying to do that, I guess, because expressing algorithms on vectors is the same no matter the dimensionality?
2014-05-28T13:10:11Z davexunit: I did it to be consistent with how + works.
2014-05-28T13:10:19Z davexunit: jim: yes.
2014-05-28T13:10:40Z jim: would be sad to lose that
2014-05-28T13:10:47Z noncom: if you're doing something like a math program, then there is a meaning to be able to process 0 vectors. however for a game engine, im not sure it has meaning
2014-05-28T13:13:06Z noncom: so what did you decide in the end?
2014-05-28T13:13:13Z jim: so if that's the case, then... is there a way to express an algorithm in such a way it could be loaded from a .scm text file for N-dimensional vectors, where N is somehow specified to the load process?
2014-05-28T13:13:46Z jim: that is,
2014-05-28T13:14:53Z davexunit: noncom: I haven't made a decision yet.  it all hinges on if I can find a convenient way to represent the zero vector and the one vector universally for all vector types.
2014-05-28T13:15:15Z jim: the text file is OK with any dimensionality (and therefore so is the algorithm represented by the text file) but you somehow specify N so that loading the algorithm produces lambdas that are for N-dimensional vectors
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2014-05-28T13:16:08Z noncom: davexunit: i think that such an identity vector can be represented by a single thing and has to be interpreted during + or *
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2014-05-28T13:16:35Z noncom: what gameengine are you porting?
2014-05-28T13:16:46Z davexunit: I'm not porting, but writing my own.
2014-05-28T13:17:06Z davexunit: https://gitorious.org/guile-2d/guile-2d
2014-05-28T13:17:46Z davexunit: I think a null-vector type should take me where I need to go.
2014-05-28T13:19:51Z noncom: wow, so you're making a gamengine for guile???
2014-05-28T13:19:55Z noncom: an opengl one?
2014-05-28T13:19:58Z noncom: that's cool!
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2014-05-28T13:26:14Z noncom: when you plan itbe ready?
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2014-05-28T13:32:17Z davexunit: noncom: well, I'm trying to get a 0.2 release ready, but it's been taking a really long time.
2014-05-28T13:32:37Z noncom: davexunit: what are your plans for the engine? how do you see it in a year?
2014-05-28T13:32:40Z davexunit: I know what I want to have in it, but it's been hard work for me and I haven't had a ton of time to work on it.
2014-05-28T13:34:30Z davexunit: noncom: my plan is to create an engine that allows you to develop a game while it is running, like how you can edit emacs while using emacs.
2014-05-28T13:36:25Z davexunit: things mostly follow a functional style.  I've written a simple implementation of functional reactive programming that helps facilitate both live-coding at the REPL and a functional style of game programming.
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2014-05-28T13:37:35Z davexunit: that's the big vision, and I've made good progress on that front, but there's much to be done.
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2014-05-28T13:40:45Z davexunit: I plan to support 3D, too, and thus I'll be changing the project's naem.
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2014-05-28T13:49:27Z amgarching: return scalar 0.0 and 1.0 for v+ and v*. You might need to re-interprete your "v-objects" as a union of scalars and n-vectors for some specific n. Yes, that is ugly. But both NumPy and Fortran allow scalar + array, scalar * array and many find that convenient.
2014-05-28T13:49:34Z amgarching: davexunit: ^
2014-05-28T13:50:38Z davexunit: amgarching: thanks.
2014-05-28T13:51:03Z davexunit: just note that my vector types are *not* arrays.  they are distinct data types.
2014-05-28T13:51:17Z davexunit: but I think the rule you've outlined still applies.
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2014-05-28T14:04:02Z noncom: davexunit: i am developing same thing in clojure
2014-05-28T14:04:20Z noncom: got good progress, used in production, many things out-of-the-box
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2014-05-28T14:04:55Z davexunit: sounds like you're way ahead of me. :)
2014-05-28T14:05:25Z noncom: davexunit: how do you go about the fact that OO paradigm is far more suitable for games than FP?
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2014-05-28T14:05:57Z noncom: davexunit: well, sorta.. however, i am based on java sinve i am a java zealot and guile is native!
2014-05-28T14:06:13Z davexunit: well, I guess I disagree that OO is more suitable.
2014-05-28T14:06:31Z noncom: have you done games for production?
2014-05-28T14:06:43Z davexunit: I think most existing literature about games and implementation of games uses OO, so it's certainly more studied and popular
2014-05-28T14:06:52Z davexunit: noncom: I don't make games professionally.
2014-05-28T14:07:14Z noncom: but have you done some games with lots of things in them?
2014-05-28T14:08:03Z davexunit: I have only made rather small games because I'm just one person.
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2014-05-28T14:16:10Z noncom: i see, no problem, i just want to know where're you coming from
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2014-05-28T14:17:22Z noncom: well, i think that with time, if you try to make any big game, you will either way employ OOP. the funny thing is that if you even disagree with how it is popularized, you will be surprised when you reinvent it :)
2014-05-28T14:17:35Z noncom: that happened to me and to whom i know
2014-05-28T14:18:15Z davexunit: I do web development professionally, and work with OO languages.
2014-05-28T14:18:28Z davexunit: but ruby and javascript allow me to apply functional programming concepts to some extent.
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2014-05-28T14:19:35Z davexunit: not as much as I would like, of course.
2014-05-28T14:20:41Z noncom: my understanding was this: games are all about managing state. this is because games must performant in realtime and because hardware is all about managing state. then you have all these multiple similar objects in games. then you structure your state, define functions to work with it... then you break this state into clusters of functionality, that be classes.. and whoooaaa, you've re-invented it
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2014-05-28T14:20:42Z noncom: the OOP
2014-05-28T14:20:50Z noncom: there is a reason on why it is ther
2014-05-28T14:21:08Z noncom: however, in the latest times i find FP + OOP fusion be the most effective one
2014-05-28T14:21:12Z noncom: so you're right
2014-05-28T14:21:17Z noncom: your feeling is right
2014-05-28T14:21:27Z noncom: bring FP
2014-05-28T14:21:40Z noncom: but let OOP share its part of wisdom
2014-05-28T14:21:55Z davexunit: I still aim to avoid OOP as much as possible.
2014-05-28T14:22:28Z offby1 high-fives davexunit
2014-05-28T14:22:30Z davexunit: state needs to be managed, and you can do so in a functional manner.
2014-05-28T14:22:41Z noncom: right, do it. this is YOUR experiment. just go on with it and you will come somewhere you have to come
2014-05-28T14:22:59Z davexunit: games must be performant, and you an do some with low-level primitives written in an imperative manner.
2014-05-28T14:23:18Z davexunit: can do so*  yuck, bad typos
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2014-05-28T14:24:05Z davexunit: even in the OOP game dev world, people are using things like entity component systems instead of traditional class hierarchies.
2014-05-28T14:26:08Z noncom: well, actually, OOP, on higher levels, tries to emulate FP while FP at highr levels, tries to emulate OOP
2014-05-28T14:26:16Z noncom: that's what i once heard
2014-05-28T14:26:29Z noncom: and that's what's totally confirmed by my experience
2014-05-28T14:27:06Z noncom: so intertwining them gives the biggest profit IMHO
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2014-05-28T14:29:02Z noncom: entity component systems is itself an attempt to fuse OOP with FP
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2014-05-28T14:30:09Z noncom: davexunit: anyway, you have to go on with the development of the engine. there is currently nothing like that for guile and i think it will be a very valuable addition
2014-05-28T14:30:53Z davexunit: noncom: yeah, I know where you're coming from with the OOP/FP fusion.  perhaps that is the best way, we'll see. :)
2014-05-28T14:31:11Z davexunit: I hope my game engine can attract new guile users.
2014-05-28T14:31:25Z davexunit: I want to submit it to the GNU project at some point.
2014-05-28T14:31:54Z noncom: you have mentioned it be like emacs but for games - that is what i would think of as an OS-like thing. so also include the things to manage the architecture correctly.
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2014-05-28T14:33:34Z noncom: actually, in last two years i see a risin wave of things like this. everyone is making an os-like thing to make 3d games in his favourite lisp (i was with clojure)
2014-05-28T14:33:38Z noncom: so this is cool
2014-05-28T14:33:42Z noncom: ride the wave! :)
2014-05-28T14:33:44Z davexunit: noncom: I will try my best.
2014-05-28T14:34:26Z davexunit: I have one major feature left before I go into clean-up mode for my next release: the scene graph.
2014-05-28T14:34:49Z noncom: what do you think about implementing the scenegraph?
2014-05-28T14:35:55Z davexunit: for now, I'm going to keep things relatively simple, and add more functionality later as needed.  there will be a scene-node data type that includes the transformation matrix, texture, shader, and vertex array.
2014-05-28T14:36:43Z davexunit: and possibly a couple of other things, but not much more.  it can be made more powerful later to support different blending modes, wireframe rendering, etc. etc. etc.
2014-05-28T14:37:17Z davexunit: and a node can have children, of course.
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2014-05-28T14:39:18Z davexunit: using my FRP module, the scene graph can react to changes in game state and re-compute nodes as needed.
2014-05-28T14:42:26Z DrDuck:  
2014-05-28T14:45:03Z noncom: that is very interesting. i gonna check out this engine. how soon do you plan to include scenegraph?
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2014-05-28T14:46:55Z davexunit: noncom: maybe a month or two.  it all depends on how quickly I can solve problems I'm having and find time to get the work done.
2014-05-28T14:47:39Z noncom: hmmm you have to spend much time with the engine, be literally obsessed with it to have things done
2014-05-28T14:49:56Z noncom: i just really like the idea and want to see it being developed more and more
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2014-05-28T14:53:53Z davexunit: progress moves rather slowly for me.  I prototype a bunch and rewrite/refactor the code a few times before I'm happy with it and push it to master.
2014-05-28T14:57:06Z noncom: take on it, man, we have to punch it through
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2014-05-28T15:01:11Z davexunit: and hopefully if I can get a strong release out the door I can gain a contributor or two that can help make things move faster.
2014-05-28T15:02:06Z davexunit: for example, I want to move from SDL1.2 to SDL2, but there's no SDL2 binding for guile yet.  I have a guile-sdl2 project set up, but I need help getting it done.
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2014-05-28T15:11:58Z noncom: i am not familiar with it, does it require making bindings C <-> Guile?
2014-05-28T15:12:59Z davexunit: yeah, SDL is a C library.
2014-05-28T15:13:10Z davexunit: http://libsdl.org/
2014-05-28T15:14:53Z noncom: yeah i know.. is there anywhere i can look at the source files of the bindings? just interested
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2014-05-28T15:16:23Z davexunit: I can only point you towards the existing bindings for SDL 1.x, which I do not like. http://www.gnu.org/software/guile-sdl/
2014-05-28T15:17:09Z davexunit: this library is old and does not take advantage of Guile's FFI.  these bindings are written in C. yuck.
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2014-05-28T15:22:24Z noncom: why don't you create FFI bindings? is this considered a hard task?
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2014-05-28T15:29:19Z noncom: oh i've read manual
2014-05-28T15:29:31Z noncom: lots of C digging has to be done looks like
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2014-05-28T15:31:36Z davexunit: noncom: I am trying to create FFI bindings.  it's not super hard work, but it's tedious and takes a long time with a big library.
2014-05-28T15:32:24Z noncom: so you made some progress with SDL 2
2014-05-28T15:32:29Z davexunit: barely.  I was given a JSON file which contains the full specifications for the SDL2 API so I'm starting there to generate bindings.
2014-05-28T15:32:53Z noncom: btw, why not opengl?
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2014-05-28T15:33:17Z davexunit: I use OpenGL, but I use SDL for window management, keyboard/mouse input, audio, loading fonts, and probably a couple other things that I'm forgetting.
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2014-05-28T15:33:37Z noncom: oh right, i've seen the code..
2014-05-28T15:33:45Z noncom: so you also want opengl FFIs?
2014-05-28T15:33:59Z davexunit: no, I have that already.
2014-05-28T15:34:14Z noncom: so you need only a small subset of SDL to manage windows and stuff?
2014-05-28T15:34:26Z davexunit: but I need bindings for the latest version of SDL.
2014-05-28T15:34:55Z davexunit: noncom: yeah, I could get away with wrapping just what I need, but I want to supply a full binding to the guile community.
2014-05-28T15:35:05Z davexunit: it will help others, not just me and my pet project.
2014-05-28T15:35:26Z noncom: i see, so you're making it a priority?
2014-05-28T15:35:58Z davexunit: it will be a priority once I finish up my current tasks.
2014-05-28T15:36:05Z noncom: got it
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2014-05-28T16:27:34Z jim: if you wouldn't use C for the bindings, then what language?
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2014-05-28T16:41:22Z davexunit: jim: guile has a foreign function interface that allows one to write scheme code that can call functions in a shared library.
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2014-05-28T16:45:45Z jim: ok, so it isn't how the machine code and calling discipline is structured, it's that you prefer to use the ffi
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2014-05-28T16:47:32Z jim: so I guess that facility lets you load arguments into specific bit-length (and type) chunks onto the stack, call the func, grab the return value and rebalance the stack?
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2014-05-28T16:48:16Z davexunit: jim: it helps with types and pointers and stuff, yeah.
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2014-05-28T17:03:04Z jim: is sdl2 in c++ (and if so, would you have to build guile using c++ compiler to get the bindings to work)?
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2014-05-28T18:03:09Z ecraven: jim: I don't know of any toolkit that doesn't have plain C bindings
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2014-05-28T18:12:39Z jim: I thought of one possibility of what he meant, he could have wanted to do C++ bindings... that being the case, would it be necessary to build everything using a c++ compiler, or could pieces be in C and things still work?
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2014-05-28T18:35:44Z Black0range: Hey guys anyone around that knows their way around the gambit c interface? :)
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2014-05-28T18:38:43Z davexunit: jim: sdl2 is a C library.
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2014-05-28T18:52:12Z jim: davexunit, and writing the FFI bindings should be easy if the stack frame can be duplicated properly
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2014-05-28T18:56:58Z jim: davexunit, are you sure writing C bindings are going to be more difficult than using FFI?
2014-05-28T18:58:00Z jim: actually hold that thought awhile :) running an errand
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2014-05-28T19:06:11Z davexunit: jim: writing C is always more difficult than using Scheme. :)
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2014-05-28T19:08:54Z jim: Not necessarily... it seems to me that a program could be written to read the header files and write out bindings
2014-05-28T19:08:59Z davexunit: jim: if the bindings are written in C, then you must make a shared library that can be used as a Guile extension.
2014-05-28T19:10:22Z davexunit: jim: yes, but you can do the same thing and generate scheme code that uses the FFI!
2014-05-28T19:10:35Z jim: I'm saying something slightly different... if a library is in C, then it already has C bindings
2014-05-28T19:10:51Z jim: is that going to be fast tho?
2014-05-28T19:10:55Z jim: running wise
2014-05-28T19:11:16Z davexunit: yes, but you need to use an API to wrap the C functions for calling from Scheme code.
2014-05-28T19:11:38Z davexunit: those wrappers need to handle type conversions and such.
2014-05-28T19:11:38Z jim: does the FFI "compile" into something?
2014-05-28T19:12:03Z davexunit: I'm not sure what the implementation details are.
2014-05-28T19:12:39Z jim: and some of the calls must involve "memory slab and pointer" data structures
2014-05-28T19:12:49Z davexunit: Guile uses libffi, I believe. https://sourceware.org/libffi/
2014-05-28T19:13:26Z jim: wait, are you thinking of doing this for guile? or trying for all schemes?
2014-05-28T19:13:31Z davexunit: guile.
2014-05-28T19:13:43Z davexunit: guile has an API for this.  I've used it many times.
2014-05-28T19:15:01Z jim: I did something a little similar with perl and a web server (which had some "memory slab" data types)
2014-05-28T19:15:02Z davexunit: http://www.gnu.org/software/guile/manual/html_node/Foreign-Function-Interface.html#Foreign-Function-Interface
2014-05-28T19:15:04Z rudybot: http://tinyurl.com/ne8cusv
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2014-05-28T19:17:44Z jim: I had this thing when I was writing the bindings for each data structure, I had a func that converted from a perl struct to a C pointer (which had perl store/manage the mem slab) and another one which went back (creating the perl things to hold the slab)
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2014-05-28T19:19:38Z jim: then, I wrote bindings for each call that was specific to the data structure, and then when writing bindings for funcs that took instances of the data structure, I had the conversion funcs ready
2014-05-28T19:20:07Z jim: I'm glad to hear you have a good body of experience using FFI
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2014-05-29T05:00:00Z sethalves: have you looked at clojure?
2014-05-29T05:00:09Z sethalves: (nothing against kawa)
2014-05-29T05:00:56Z nisstyre: is Clojure really a Scheme?
2014-05-29T05:01:06Z nisstyre: I know it shares many of the same features
2014-05-29T05:01:44Z sethalves: if you mean does it fulfill r*rs, the answer is probably "not quite"
2014-05-29T05:04:43Z sethalves: http://clojure.org/lisps
2014-05-29T05:05:33Z nisstyre: sethalves: yeah that is sort of what I meant
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2014-05-29T06:04:49Z aeth: sethalves: I haven't looked at clojure. I know Scheme and Common Lisp.
2014-05-29T06:04:56Z aeth: There's always a bit of a learning curve.
2014-05-29T06:06:27Z aeth: I've heard that Scheme on Java is better than Common Lisp on Java.
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2014-05-29T11:09:05Z Black0range: Hey anyone with some gambit FFI / opengl experience around? :)
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2014-05-29T12:13:41Z DrDuck: Mornin guys. For those of you who used mit-scheme when reading sicp. How did you go about dealing with the picture language section?
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2014-05-29T12:18:59Z ecraven: if I remember correctly, Racket does include support for the picture language and will actually show images
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2014-05-29T12:27:17Z DrDuck: ecraven: I'd like to show the images in mit-scheme if possible. I'm wondering if this will be sufficient with some modifications to what location to load a few files from in psgo.scm: http://mitpress.mit.edu/sicp/psets/ps4hnd/readme.html
2014-05-29T12:28:02Z ecraven: I'm not sure then, I don't believe Edwin can show image files inline..
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2014-05-29T20:26:21Z vraid: i came across this when looking for ways to do cross-platform mobile development in scheme, has anyone used it? https://github.com/part-cw/lambdanative
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2014-05-29T21:28:39Z ecraven: vraid: no, but it would be interesting to hear of your experiences with it, if you decide to use it
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2014-05-30T04:44:26Z DrDuck: Anyone here use mit-scheme for the picture language section of sicp?
2014-05-30T04:46:22Z oleo: no
2014-05-30T04:46:33Z oleo: i have something similar in mcclim in cl
2014-05-30T04:46:46Z oleo: it's called functional-geometry package...
2014-05-30T04:46:53Z oleo: or some such...
2014-05-30T04:47:03Z nisstyre: Racket can do a lot of image manipulation
2014-05-30T04:47:13Z nisstyre: and you can even paste images into DrRacket and use them in your source code
2014-05-30T04:47:23Z oleo: draws fishes for me in escher manner....
2014-05-30T04:47:24Z oleo: lol
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2014-05-30T09:40:59Z Black0range: Hey guys i'm playing around with making a scheme ui toolkit. What would you think the best way to store an "object" would be?
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2014-05-30T13:19:41Z Black0range: You can hear the crickets play on this channel :)
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2014-05-30T13:33:49Z vraid: Black0range: we're all busy scheming against them
2014-05-30T13:37:12Z Black0range: Hah :) I was wondering if anyone has an idea of how to do make "objects" for making ui. I did have this idea with macros and closures. But the result would be a kind of "message passing", witch would be kinda "slow"
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2014-05-30T16:02:17Z jim: so I have some funky adhockey data structures I made up out of lists... (did I say funky yet)...
2014-05-30T16:02:40Z m4burns: jim: whyyyyy
2014-05-30T16:02:42Z m4burns: but go on
2014-05-30T16:02:46Z jim: first, do you guys tend to write selectors?
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2014-05-30T16:04:07Z jim: like I got one called note that looks either like (r 1/4) which is a rest or (n 1/8 g 1) for a note on G above middle C that's an 8th note
2014-05-30T16:04:42Z jim: m4burns, I'll ask about "whyyyyyy" in a sec :)
2014-05-30T16:04:56Z m4burns: i would write selectors, yeah
2014-05-30T16:05:37Z m4burns: having some abstraction to distance your application code from the monstrosity lists you are dealing with is good :)
2014-05-30T16:06:11Z m4burns: you can then change the details of the data structure without changing other parts of your implementation
2014-05-30T16:06:14Z m4burns: and you don'
2014-05-30T16:06:19Z m4burns: t have to repeat yourself as much
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2014-05-30T16:07:30Z jim: ok, so I'm writing these selectors and I'm realizing my names for the selectors sux partly because they don't name the type (like type, duration, pitch, octave, car, cadr, caddr and cadddr respecitively)
2014-05-30T16:08:13Z jim: would you find that sucky too? (looking for opinion based on style here)
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2014-05-30T16:08:55Z jim: I mean would you rather go for some kind of method emcapsulation?
2014-05-30T16:08:59Z m4burns: yeah, i would
2014-05-30T16:09:20Z jim: find it sucky? go for method encap? both?
2014-05-30T16:09:20Z m4burns: i'm not afraid of longer names that accurately describe what the selector selects
2014-05-30T16:09:40Z m4burns: but method encap, imo, is kinda overkill.
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2014-05-30T16:10:43Z jim: would you also write constructors and recognizers?
2014-05-30T16:11:07Z m4burns: constructors, for sure. the abstraction would be incomplete without.
2014-05-30T16:11:15Z m4burns: recognizers if they are needed
2014-05-30T16:12:10Z jim: in my case would you write constructors mk-rest and mk-note? or just mk-note that takes a type?
2014-05-30T16:12:30Z m4burns: i'm not sure; depends on the application and your preference
2014-05-30T16:12:56Z jim: ok, good an answer as any. thanks... editing...
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2014-05-30T16:15:54Z m4burns: :)
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2014-05-30T16:23:11Z jim: oh, forgot... at the beginning of this funky list type talk, you sais "whyyyyyy"...
2014-05-30T16:23:15Z jim: could you say more?
2014-05-30T16:25:30Z m4burns: most schemes provide a simple mechanism for implementing structured data types
2014-05-30T16:26:08Z jim: so then your question is "why not use that instead of a list"
2014-05-30T16:26:22Z m4burns: such that fields are clearly named and the awkwardness of maintaining lists is gone
2014-05-30T16:26:31Z m4burns: yes
2014-05-30T16:26:52Z jim: does each scheme do that differently?
2014-05-30T16:27:07Z jim: I'm using guile2 that I compiled recently
2014-05-30T16:29:20Z m4burns: some do, i think i have only started guile once so i have no idea in your case, but the general idea is there's a bag of macros provided to you that can be used to define structures with named fields (and possibly inheritance etc.)
2014-05-30T16:29:42Z m4burns: these macros take care of the ugly work that you are now doing by hand
2014-05-30T16:29:53Z m4burns: racket has define-struct, for example
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2014-05-30T16:32:22Z jim: OK, I'll look around for something in guile
2014-05-30T16:32:40Z jim: truthfully I guess I could use any scheme
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2014-05-30T21:25:20Z daviid: jim, guile has goops, worth a look imo
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2014-05-30T22:34:59Z jim: daviid, thanks (I know your client isn't here, maybe you read the channel logs)
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2014-05-30T22:36:47Z jim: my funkyadhockey types, they're working... I might go to a goopsy thing if it were ported to all or most schemes...
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2014-05-30T22:40:03Z jim: one of the types was no longer needed, so I just blew all that away
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2014-05-30T22:50:50Z offby1: funkyadhockey goopsy
2014-05-30T22:51:16Z jim: those would be the two choices, yes
2014-05-30T22:51:44Z jim: names assigned by yours truely...
2014-05-30T22:52:29Z jim: I mean the list thing is a good idea for one-off or (max) 2-off
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2014-05-30T22:53:09Z jim: if my project were full of those kinds of types I might look elsewhere
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2014-05-31T05:32:18Z DrDuck: So is racket the only way to do the picture language section of sicp?
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2014-05-31T15:01:25Z sigjuice_: DrDuck:  I am not sure.  For this section, I used racket, but without the DrRacket IDE.
2014-05-31T15:03:00Z DrDuck: sigjuice_: I started using Racket for the section this morning. It seems everything works as intended. Just need to use an extra procedure called 'paint' to render what your results.
2014-05-31T15:03:31Z DrDuck: The Racket IDE seems awesome. :D
2014-05-31T15:04:10Z DrDuck: Still trying to wrap my head properly around corner-split.
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2014-05-31T15:12:08Z sigjuice_: It has been a while since I worked through that section :p .
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2014-05-31T15:23:50Z sigjuice_: Well I just tried it again and completely confused myself.  http://imgur.com/fwCUUZI
2014-05-31T15:30:53Z ANGRYSTEVE: schelog questions goes here as well?
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2014-05-31T17:46:53Z litn: hey guys- what would be the prefered method of data storage for scheme? I mean for something you would typically use SQL for, should I just use SQL or is there something more typically used in that environment?
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2014-05-31T18:18:46Z DrDuck: i feel like i barely know what's going on in the picture language section
2014-05-31T18:19:06Z DrDuck: it seems like just a tour of the language so far. i thought we were going to be constructing it
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2014-05-31T19:24:25Z jim: litn, is this a pretty large project?
2014-05-31T19:24:54Z jim: DrDuck, you mean picture stuff like before-after pics of (say) cons?
2014-05-31T19:25:36Z ecraven: DrDuck: it's been a long time, but I believe a lot of new functions are being constructed?
2014-05-31T19:25:40Z jim: litn, how are you planning to access the data after it's stored?
2014-05-31T19:25:45Z ecraven: litn: why not use actual SQL?
2014-05-31T19:26:19Z jim: mcraven, I think he wants to know "what's the overkill boundary"
2014-05-31T19:29:18Z jim: and I'd say, it's if you're looking to query data joined to other data, sort by any existing criteria, have it be a pro job and have several options for backup, those are the kinds of things you don't want to write yourself
2014-05-31T19:29:56Z jim: even if you are wanting just one or two of those
2014-05-31T19:33:43Z jim: and... (shameless plug time) I would recommend you look at postgresql, especially as it has extensive options for programmer/dba-defined ways of protecting your data from corruption (things that mysql thinks you shouldn't want: "that's for banks, why do you care" kinds of noises I've heard)
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2014-05-31T19:36:35Z DrDuck:  jim i mean from the picture language section of sicp
2014-05-31T19:36:54Z DrDuck: ecraven: maybe. i've only done one exercise from the section. i took a nap, but i'm starting back now
2014-05-31T19:37:19Z DrDuck: ecraven: i thought the reader would be more involved though. maybe it comes later
2014-05-31T19:37:22Z jim: ohh, you mean the thing with the symmetric pictures
2014-05-31T19:37:28Z DrDuck: yes
2014-05-31T19:37:40Z ecraven: jim: I've sometimes used sqlite3, as it is *really* convenient to run without a server, for very simple apps :)
2014-05-31T19:39:24Z jim: I actually corresponded with someone who taught an sicp, and got some material she handed out for getting the picture language primitives going
2014-05-31T19:40:28Z jim: mcraven, which has the effect of lowering the overkill boundary (causing less to be overkill)
2014-05-31T19:41:02Z ecraven: jim: I've been avoiding mysql as much as possible, if I need a full system, why not go all the way to postgres (which isn't harder to set up)?
2014-05-31T19:41:27Z jim: right, it's quite easy
2014-05-31T19:42:07Z jim: building your own pg is easy, installing the packages is easy, starting the server is easy, backup is easy... it's just easy!
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2014-05-31T19:43:03Z jim: mysql has backend choices that can be tough decisions
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2014-05-31T19:57:57Z daviid: jim: which scheme are you using ?
2014-05-31T19:58:11Z jim: guile-2.0.11
2014-05-31T19:58:20Z daviid: you can use guile-sqlite then
2014-05-31T19:58:28Z daviid: much easier
2014-05-31T19:59:04Z jim: that depends on the original poster's needs, but sure, that's one choice
2014-05-31T19:59:12Z ecraven: most recent Schemes have decent FFIs, shouldn't be too hard to get basic postgres working
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2014-05-31T19:59:35Z daviid: https://www.gitorious.org/guile-sqlite
2014-05-31T19:59:41Z jim: yeah, I've looked at libpq, it's not hard
2014-05-31T20:00:42Z daviid: quite a lot of work I would say, and guile-pg exists, but poorly maintained, imo, and not yet with a proper guile-2 implementation
2014-05-31T20:01:31Z ecraven: daviid: the question is always how much of it do you need for your purposes :)
2014-05-31T20:01:32Z jim: the good thing being, that work only needs doing once
2014-05-31T20:02:12Z daviid: for simple backend work, I'd go for guile-sqlite or http://home.gna.org/guile-dbi/ [which let's you remain independent of the db backend
2014-05-31T20:02:26Z daviid: but at all cost, not reimplementing existing backend :)
2014-05-31T20:02:30Z jim: since the OP asked the question, I'd say sqlite is well within the set of good choices
2014-05-31T20:02:45Z daviid: contribute to existing one rather...
2014-05-31T20:03:10Z jim: but we haven't heard from him, so we don't know for sure
2014-05-31T20:04:16Z daviid: ecraven, sure.  given the original quiz, i'd go for sqlite
2014-05-31T20:04:47Z ANGRYSTEVE: can anyone help me with schelog?
2014-05-31T20:05:06Z jim: what would have to be done I guess is make sure all the data structures libpq can send/receive from pg are handled, then work on queries
2014-05-31T20:05:38Z daviid: jim, as I said, that is already done, use guile-dbi then ...
2014-05-31T20:05:56Z jim: ANGRYSTEVE, probably would need a more specific question (I haven't heard of it, but that's never stopped me before :)
2014-05-31T20:06:06Z daviid: jim: "guile-dbi provides a simple, generic, easy-to-use scheme/guile interface to SQL databases, such as Postgres, MySQL or SQLite."
2014-05-31T20:06:35Z jim: perfect then :) the work -has- been done :)
2014-05-31T20:06:54Z jim: and likely in a portable manner
2014-05-31T20:06:59Z ANGRYSTEVE: prolog embedded in scheme
2014-05-31T20:07:44Z jim: I guess you could do expert systems and elizas out of that?
2014-05-31T20:07:51Z daviid: ANGRYSTEVE: if you're using guile, there is guile-log: https://gitorious.org/gule-log
2014-05-31T20:07:59Z ANGRYSTEVE: I am not
2014-05-31T20:08:06Z ANGRYSTEVE: I'm using Chez
2014-05-31T20:08:06Z daviid: too bad :)
2014-05-31T20:08:15Z daviid: then I don't know
2014-05-31T20:09:13Z jim: ANGRYSTEVE, to do sicp stuff? or a IRL project?
2014-05-31T20:09:21Z ANGRYSTEVE: assignment
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2014-05-31T20:10:21Z jim: oh ok... so I'll just comment in passing you could choose to run a different scheme if the assignment would allow and if you feel it's easy/convenient
2014-05-31T20:10:59Z ANGRYSTEVE: mmh
2014-05-31T20:11:06Z ANGRYSTEVE: it's rather specific
2014-05-31T20:11:07Z ANGRYSTEVE: like
2014-05-31T20:11:07Z ANGRYSTEVE: http://users-cs.au.dk/danvy/dProgSprog/Lecture-notes/week-21.html#exercise-foo-and-bar-in-schelog
2014-05-31T20:11:08Z rudybot: http://tinyurl.com/o4qglf8
2014-05-31T20:11:25Z jim: so they want you to use chez? oh, ok
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2014-05-31T20:15:38Z daviid: jim: actually, related to guile sqlite binding, the latest is here: https://gitorious.org/guile-sqlite3/
2014-05-31T20:16:18Z jim: ANGRYSTEVE, so here's what they want... they want you to look into the schelog thing and see what a few different things (small handful) mean, and use those in the requested combinations to piece together the meaning of a couple of specific queries
2014-05-31T20:16:37Z ANGRYSTEVE: yes, I did run them
2014-05-31T20:16:50Z ANGRYSTEVE: the last two in foo gave false
2014-05-31T20:16:54Z ANGRYSTEVE: the last one in bar gave false
2014-05-31T20:17:47Z jim: so, they want you to figure out what that would be telling you, based on the definitions
2014-05-31T20:19:42Z jim: if I remember correctly, prolog is about matching patterns in a larger collection of data (you just have the foo and the bar thing, which probably represents two small structures)
2014-05-31T20:21:12Z ANGRYSTEVE: ugh, I'm trying to read the lecture notes again
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2014-05-31T20:38:51Z jim: so, is the problem currently that you're having problems understanding the notes?
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2014-05-31T20:41:06Z ANGRYSTEVE: now it's just understanding what it does
2014-05-31T20:41:26Z ANGRYSTEVE: for
2014-05-31T20:41:28Z ANGRYSTEVE: (%which () (%foo (list 1 2 3) (list 1 2 3)))
2014-05-31T20:41:56Z ANGRYSTEVE: I find that (list 1 2 3), (list 2 3), (list 3) (list) are valid
2014-05-31T20:42:36Z ANGRYSTEVE: is foo like some sort of member check?
2014-05-31T20:43:01Z jim: I can't stay, errand. I'd have to look thru and grab a copy of chez to get right where you are...
2014-05-31T20:43:16Z ANGRYSTEVE: I'll leave in 1 hour
2014-05-31T20:43:19Z ANGRYSTEVE: sadly
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2014-05-31T20:46:33Z jim: I will suggest that you look at the notes carefully, and create 1-3 examples of each point, and "screw around" with each. get familiar with the material in the notes by trying things out at every point. Then the questions you'll be asking will start to change as you gain footholds.
2014-05-31T20:47:00Z ANGRYSTEVE: I'm into something... it has something to do with the last element
2014-05-31T20:47:03Z ANGRYSTEVE: as the stop case is L L
2014-05-31T20:47:09Z ANGRYSTEVE: which means it has to equal
2014-05-31T20:48:07Z ANGRYSTEVE: it's head and tail!
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